A very powerful piece! I really appreciate the great work the Armenian Weekly is doing. You are bridging the Turkish Armenian divide by serious and honest dialogue...
Great tribute! I knew Armand and his work. Glad his memory is being kept alive!
Powerful piece indeed. So much is changing in Turkey thanks to scholars that are brave enough to confront the official history.
This article about Alec so beautifully captured his warmth and goodness, it literally brought tears to my eyes. He genuinely made the world a better place.
Congratulations to the Armenian Weekly for being progressive and avant-garde. Miss Manjikian is an active member of the Armenian community of Montréal and I have had the pleasure of working with her.
Her analytical skills will help the readers understand the evolution that the Diaspora is going through at this moment.
Thank you for giving us this opportunity to share with Miss Manjikian on a regular basis.
this author has captured the essence of the diaspora. looking forward to more stories.
Abrees Lalai jan...a poetic and apt description by you as well...scattered jewels all over the globe...congrats on your new series!
Great idea, Lalai jan! Look forward to reading your next columns! Apres!:)
I will be looking forward to Ms Manjikian's column. I have read some of her previous work and believe there will be merit in this column for all your readers.
thank you.
I'm Lalai's uncle, What else can I say than "ABRISS".
I am very much impressed by your article and am very glad to have this nice opportunity of reading you!
Concerning the environmental part, it is obvious, that Armenians need to become more aware of the effects of becoming a more westernised consumer-nation.
The last time i visited the coutrysides around yerevan and other regions where there are main roads to eg. the Sevan lake or Georgia, the roadside and the landscape was filled with plastic bottles and plastic-bags either thrown out of cars or blown away from small towns. You could litterally see a whole hillside covered with garbage. It was terrible, because you could truly see how devastating it was for the scenery and the beauty of the area. Sometimes i would stop by a river with my family to realx, and the river would be floating with plastic bottles and cans and potenially toxic garbage. This problem has increased in severity for the last 7 years at least, and you can truly see it getting worse every year. The government has to start protecting the scarce part of the beautiful caucasian landscape that armenians inhabit, instead of ignoring the need for eg. recycling management or an efficient public awareness campaign of ome sort. Our homeland is not a trashcan, and we've earned it through enough blood and tears, to start worrying about how we treat its ecological system.
Very moving piece! Thanks for posting it.
As Lalai's PhD supervisor, I am used to her strong writing and thoughtful analysis. I'm delighted that this weekly column will bring her voice to a wider audience. The first installment is lovely and poetic. Congratulations, Lalai and Armenian Weekly!
Let me join the others in congratulating you Lalai jan - as I told you in my email, I think we can all benefit from your work, which is both thought-provoking and relevant. How apt the necklace/scattered beads metaphor is... we have indeed been forced to try and catch the beads, hoping to restring them without too many pieces missing so as to have something whole again. It is our struggle as a people but on my better days I think we're doing a fine job. Cheers to all those who contribute in their own unique ways to "restringing" what may end up a more multi-faceted and beautiful necklace in the end...
The question of the Armenian identity has preoccupied my mind in the past several years, and it is not a question I have been able to answer to my satisfaction yet. I look forward to the light that such a bright mind will shed on the subject. It looks very promising Lalai, keep it up!
Shnorhavor Lalai jan! I'll make sure to follow your columns.
Great Noraduz pic! :)
Turks walking in Der Zor to commemorate the victims of 1915. That's such a powerful statement! I hope more and more people in Turkey read this article.
Congrats, Garen! Full-spead ahead to April 14!
Great article, Jirair. I really appreciate your approach to activism by the Armenian community.
Often those of us living in Armenia have the general attitude that restringing the beads implies moving to Armenia, at least what's left of it. Although that made sense to me, I often understand that the existence of a Diaspora supports us in so many ways, and it gives the Diaspora a momentum of its own.
Note: did you know that the GDP per capita of Armenia is much higher than our neighours' (Azerbaijan and Georgia, source the Economist Intelligence Unit) although one has petrol and the other trade routes to support its economy? The Armenian Government regularly thanks the Diaspora for this feat.
So Dr. Manjikian, I will await your columns with excitement.
An extremely moving write-up! I think the Turks shall go in their thousands and tens of thousands to pay homage to the victims of the horrific genocide of 1915. I hope that in the near future, every adult literate Turk reads this article.
I understand very well what the Armenian people have gone through, as we Kashmiri Hindus in Kashmir also had to face a genocide and we are permanently exiled from the land of our forefathers.
Congratulations to The Armenian Weekly,and you Lalai.
I will be looking forward to reading your column.Your profound analysis and wonderful "Beads"will certainly fill our heart and soul with the beauty of your thoughts and expressions.
Very impressive article...Thank you.Good luck!
While it is true that Uygur has denied the Armenian Genocide while in college, he has since revisited his views. Blogging on the Huffington Post in 2007, for example, Uygur compared Iran’s denial of the Holocaust to Turkey’s denial of the Armenian Genocide. In criticizing the argument that America should invade Iran because of Holocaust denial, Uygur wrote: “But Ahmadinejad is the leader of an important country in the Middle East. Well, so is Tayyip Erdogan, the Prime Minister of Turkey. He denies the Armenian Genocide. Should we invade Turkey?" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/ahmadinejad-the-new-boog_b_65735.html
While the choice of “Young Turks” as a name of a progressive program is distasteful, to say the least, Turkish-American Cenk Uygur is on record recognizing the Armenian Genocide.
Simon Maghakyan
Denver, Colorado
Congratulations Lalai!!
I loved this article, very poetic and artistic! I can't wait to read more of your columns!
Abriss and good luck!
Tom's columns are very funny and informative. I believe he is one of the best columnists in the Armenian community.
I agree. I hope Turkish historians listen to professor Oktay's voice of reason: "In short, to me, this is the bitter legacy Hrant left behind for historians. It is now in our hands to show respect, by simply doing our job properly. Hrant’s whole life and his tragic death should not be in vain! To the contrary, the community of historians in Turkey as a whole owes him and his people a belated but sincere apology, not only for their indirect contribution to the very process that ended with Hrant’s death. Such an apology is also needed for the still-continuing ignorance of the ethics of the historical profession. All we need is to remember these basics all over; and, of course, a bit of decency."
the US is NOT imvading Iran because or Holocaust denial!!
Turkish Consul General of Los Angeles Hakan Tekin predicted in June 2008, that Obama would not recognize the Armenian Genocide on April 24, 2009. Check out the YouTube clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNsNSD3x328
Any Turk who can read English can go to the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. and get the National Geographic issues of 1915 and will see all the articles written about the atrocities, starvation, killings and deportation the Turkish government organized to rape a civilized Armenian Christian population.Turks as well as Germans should be accountable. O' civilized world let me spit on your face.
Hi,
I love your new online format! Keep up the great work.
Ung. Sandra Vartanian
It really hurts when your own history is NOT recognized. How can we forgive and move forward when the Turks and most of the world do not know our history and our difficulty in survival.
Very interesting article Lalai. Well written! I look forward to reading more of your articles and grasp more insite of Armenians from your perspective.
Wo,through all history,as we know today did not slaughter brother and sisters,father and moms,nations and familys-who in the name og god did not kill thousends ?????
Please step forward and say ,my family-Nation never has -all through the history-If so
THEN YOU ARE A LAIER !!!!!
Thank you for Ms. Manjikian's column. It is well-written and perceptive. Please put me in your subscription list. Please publish my email message if you wish.
Jirair Tutunjian
Toronto
TO THE AUTHOR:
Did you ever think that the Armenian officials are shrewder and wiser than you can imagine? Did you ever consider that Armenia knows that Turkey has no experience in nuclear technology and hence Turkey would never participate even if it wanted to? Have you heard of a concept called diplomatic posturing?
AREG SAHAKIAN
Attorney at Law
An absolute shock. On behalf of Aravod, as a family you welcomed us with open arms as a young group of musicians to your home in St. Louis, and we have never forgotten that. Der Vartan lived with sincerity, dedication, kindness, and passion throughout his life, and is continuing to do so in heaven. Asdvadz hokeen loosavoreh.
Der Vartan was a faithful servant of the Armenian Orthodox Church. I had the privelege of knowing him as a spiritual pastor in Granite City and later at North Andover. I saw him last September and we had a nice discussion about the affiars of the Church and how we can contribute our God-given talents and share in our knowlege and dedication to the church. He will be greatly missed as a pastor and as an individual.
Our thoughts and prayer go out to his yeretsgin, and children. May God accept him in the ranks of the saints and grant the comfort of His Holy Spirit to us all to remember him as a devoted servant of God, as a loving husband and father, as as an individual whose towering presence will be greatly missed.
Say What?
I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw that someone with an Armenian sounding name felt the need to counter Anahid Jafargian’s letter of Feb. 28 regarding the possibility of Cenk Uygur of “The Young Turks” taking over the 10 p.m. nightly show on MSNBC (Armenian Weekly, Letters, March 7).
“While it is true that Uygur has denied the genocide while in college,” the gentleman wrote, “he has since revisited his views.” Really? I might be conditioned by 30 years in advertising where every word, every nuance counts and every claim must be documented, but to my understanding, revisiting in no way signifies revising one’s views. As for the quote from the blog on the Huffington Post, Uygur is simply pointing out that it makes no more sense to invade Iran because Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust than it would to invade Turkey because they deny the Armenian Genocide. In this comparison, use of the word genocide does not mean that Uygur himself considers what happened as genocide. As someone who reads the Huffington Post daily, I’m familiar with the quote but do not believe it constitutes being “on record [as] recognizing the Armenian Genocide” as Maghakyan states Uygur is.
I spent several hours surfing the web, trying to find one instance where Uygur acknowledges the genocide. I could not find one. I would love it if Maghakyan or anyone could provide proof other than the above-cited quote from the Huffington blog. I sincerely would love it, because on all other issues (with the exception of his great pride in being a Turk) I agree with Uygur’s politics and opinions.
By the way, even if he did recognize that the genocide did occur, the fact that he calls his show “The Young Turks” means that he is not troubled by it. Think of it as a German radio host who admits the Holocaust happened, but still proudly calls his show “The Nazis.”
I hope Armenians will not be lulled into a false sense of security by Maghakyan’s letter. I hope they will contact MSNBC as Anahid urged to make sure Cenk Uygur of “The Young Turks” does not have a nightly show on MSNBC.
In the meantime, I find it very discouraging that at a time when the news gets worse and worse for Armenians—with more Democrats joining the genocide denial ranks and the Turks winning the PR battle—that a fellow Armenian would actually take the time to sit down and write a letter countering a call to action by a fellow Armenian to keep a program called “The Young Turks” off the air. To what end? This is why the Armenians will never get anywhere in their quest for justice.
Sadly,
Arpi Harutunian
Glen Rock, N.J.
A beautiful tribute to a great poet!
I listen to Cenk's show everyday. His entertainment co-host is an Armenian - Ana Kasparian. You are barking up the wrong tree here. Cenk used to be an asshole conservative with all kinds of wrong-headed beliefs - a fact he constantly revisits on his show. But I've heard him acknowledge the Armenian genocide several times on his show. He's probably write you back if you emailed him with a question about the subject.
Now, to your point about the name of the show. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the colloquial expression of "young turk". It's in the dictionary. This is the definition:
1. A young progressive or insurgent member of an institution, movement, or political party.
2. A young person who rebels against authority or societal expectations.
3. A rebel-rouser or young upstart
So, the name of the show has a double meaning. Cenk is far from a Turkish nationalist, though he often cites his own background in passing. If you listen to his show, you would see how far off-base you are.
And one more thing. The term "Turk" and "Nazi" are simply not analogous. A proper comparison would be the Nazis and the Nationalist Movement Party of Turkey, or a "Turk" and a "German". You're making quite a leap to say the term "Turk" is as bad as "Nazi".
Cenk is a decent guy with a deep sense of social justice. He's protested loudly against the use of torture by the Bush administration, for example. Your characterization of Cenk is simply not accurate. And remember, not all Turks are evil because their ancestors perpetrated horrible crimes. This is the same for the Germans and Americans, who committed genocide against the Native Americans. Please, have some perspective.
Peace.
President Barack Hussein Obama allegedly backs off from his candidacy pledge to declare and formally Recognize the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1923, reports Paul Ritcher of the Los Angeles Times:
“The administration is considering postponing a presidential statement amid warnings that it would risk Turkey’s help in the Mideast.
Reporting from Washington — The Obama administration is backtracking on a promised presidential declaration that Armenians were the victims of genocide in the early 20th century, fearful of alienating Turkey when U.S. officials badly want its help.”
To clarify, President Obama has NOT officially made any public announcements or released any statement confirming the claims of Paul Ritcher and the Los Angeles Times article.
Response from the Armenian-American Community
By Andre Arzoo
Field Director for the ‘Armenians for Obama’ 2008 Campaign and Columbia University Grad Student, William Bairamian, strongly believes in the importance between differentiating the alleged claims by Paul Ritcher regarding Obama’s position on the issue, from official statements coming out of the White House. For the record:
“Although Mr. Richter and the L.A. Times seem to have preemptively accused President Obama of equivocating on his principled stance of recognizing the Armenian Genocide, this should be a wake-up call to every American - of Armenian origin or otherwise - that fighting genocide and fighting its denial are ongoing battles and that we can never become complacent. We must exercise our right as citizens of the United States to remind our president of his promise to recognize the Armenian Genocide - and we must tell him that today, tomorrow, and every day until he does.”
Article Continued:
armenianamerica.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/and-another-one-obama-backs-off-pledge-to-declare-armenian-genocide/
The LA Times article is unfortunate and unbelievably biased. LA Times should know better.
For some reason, all "-an" "-yan" lastnamed people who speak english with American firstnames are in favour of this bill as if rest of Americans (200 Million some) care about it. You guys hiding behind American citizenship, trying to charge another nation for something that you did not even visit and see by yourself and keep doing the propaganda. You might have lost your ancestors but many Turks and Kurds lost theirs due to your slaughtering, bloody Armenian ancestor gangs. When those who destroy the villages, rape women, kill babies are charged with deportation, it becomes 'genocide' in your Book. Be honest and man stop weeping at the doors of your brothers. You killed people and your people were killed/deported in return, because that was a WAR. Come to your senses and ask these questions to yourselves;
1- If Ottoman was all about destroying Armanians, was there a bigger power in the world in 1600s, 1700s, 1800s? Those years, Ottoman was on the rise but Why 1915? Why wait till 1915 and then try to wipe off another nation? Why share all the streets, plates and everything with Armenian neighbours? Why keep letting daughters and sons get married with Armenians?
2- Mr. Joseph wants us to check Washington DC for the issues 1915. Was there internet at the time? Direct line between Ottoman and USA? For God's sake, Ottoman has even limited connection to its own cities and you are finding those in USA papers??
3- MORE IMPORTANTLY, Adelina, if you are so much after your history, why don't you push your brothers in Armenia to open the historical resources? Why don't you push your Russian brothers to open their historical papers? You all know, Turkey opened it and it is WIDE open to all of you who want to research Armenian history in Turkey. No! Instead, you are after a 'genocide bill' to get billions of dollars out of Turkey's treasury in return of your so called losses. Who should Turks sue?? Armeani? Who did massacare only 15 years ago?
I am sure you will not ask or answer these questions but I am writing to the history. Hopefully admins will be enough democrat and open minded to pusblish it.
My Father "Leon" knew Vartan for many years since Vartan was 17 years old. I knew Vartan for about 5 years from the Rhodes on the Pawtuxet! He was a great person who truely loved the Lord with all his heart.
I enjoy Christian's pieces. The Armenia 2008 report was very comprehensive. He should write more often.
ottamn empire around 1914 done the genocide against ermenian people at east turkey ?its true or lie?why the ottamn empire wait 500 years to kill all the ermenians all of sudden in that area.LIE.LIE. LIE. AFTER 1914 ERMENIANS ARE WANT TO FREEDOM.they start war whit many unestablished ganks againts turkish villagers at that area and killed closed to millyon turkish villigers whit un human way . reason was proove theyre population higher than turks so they can have a right to claim that area.after killed many people, turkish army actually come and control the area ,they coudnt belive what they really saw . it was really sad and shame for human history .sad part is they claimed all this thinks happen against them .i,m really sick and tired hearing this historical bullshit from ermenians .they always say turks are this turks are that .shame on you who ever say that because we give you every freedom in ottamn empire and you lived whit peace and secure and good also free ,now you and you are country isnt free and secure neither good.we are turkish our history have no shame .we bring peace,justice and wealth to any country we controled we never create diffrences between nations neither people .we still forgive what have this ganks done to our people at that time so stop doing this none sense and be friend not enemy ,we are not people you shoud be enemy whit .we are your long last brothers we shoud be in peace to each other.
Read, weep, vent:
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/03/the_los_angeles/
and
http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/2009/03/18/obama-backtracks-on-genocide-pledge/
Jeez "John", you sure your name is "John"? You sound a lot more like an Ali, or a Mehmet.
John. I tell you why "they were waiting 500 years". Because they were busy to slaughter Eastern Europe, the Balkans. So don't speak to me about how you "bring peace,justice and wealth to any country we controled we never create diffrences between nations neither people". Better ask the Kurds right now. They would tell you about "justice and wealth and forgiveness" that you're bringing to them. Or just think of Hrant.
"we give you every freedom" - Who are you to "give" freedom?? Freedom is a right for all people, so don't be surprised if I don't THANK you for your generosity.
"we bring peace,justice and wealth to any country we controled" - Who are you to control another country?? Once again....how generous of you. You oppress all peoples living within your borders. Like Dajbukat said, the Kurds can speak to that right now.
If your history had no shame, you wouldn't have a need for laws like Article 301. People would be allowed to express their opinions freely. Instead, anyone that speaks against the government's views is classified as a criminal or worse yet MURDERED IN THE STREETS like Hrant Dink. While you yourself may not have been responsible for the Genocide, you're just as guilty for propogating denial. The LIE LIE LIE being told is by you and all others who distort the truth.
I am saddened to hear about the passing of Der Vartan. I had the privelage and honor of joining Der Vartan, Yeretzgeen and a wonderful group of their parishoners on their pilgrimage to Hayastan in 2007. I will cherish my memories of our trip to Karabagh. It was so wonderful to see the love and respect everyone had for Der Vartan and he for them. He truly was the beloved shepard of his flock, and he made me feel like a member as well. Asdvadz Hokeen Loosavore. Hoghe Tetev Ka Veran.
We will have a memorial for her in Colorado. If anyone is interested please contact me, her Granddaughter @ Lisamevans@comcast.net.
Please light a candle in her memory.
Thank You.
Hi there,
I found your post while googling "where is home?" and I thought it would be interesting to tell you that what you feel is common amongst expatriates/immigrants/diasporas from any country.
I don't know how far you reasearched about this, but there is a term sociologysts call Third Culture, which means that the culture that forms you is a blend of the first (Armenian) and the second (Canadian) culture. And people who grow up in this mix of cultures are by them called Third Culture Kids or Cross-Cultural Kids.
If this is new to you, I think you will like to visit www.tckid.com, a website created by people like you (and me!), where we share our stories. There are also many links to resources about this culture and belonging subject.
For the record, I am a 27-year-old British-Brazilian, and I'm also currently (as always) searching for a home, a sense of belonging.
Hope you enjoy the site!
Maira
What a wonderful article. Fr. Vartan was a great person, as he was my brother-in-law, a great family man and a wonderful husband to my sister Pauline. He also alway said to me that I raised such wonderful girls and that someday He would preside over their weddings. Well we know that will not happen now that he is gone. I loved him like a brother and he will always be a part of our family. "Everyday you wake up and your feet hit the floor, consider it a blessing" and yes everyday I wake up I will say a pray for you Mark. Miss you dearly.
Turkey needs The U.S. much more than The U.S. needs Turkey. So why are we condoning to blackmail?
'Turkey needs The U.S. much more than the U.S. needs Turkey.' This is not an accurate statement. What exactly your arguments are based on?
This is not Cold War period anymore and Russia is not threatening Turkey. In terms of military Turkey hardly needs the US any longer as Turkish military industry is now capable of producing its own fighter jets and other military equipments. Turkish military is the second biggest military force in NATO by now. In terms of economy, Turkey has not been receiving any aid from the US for decades.
Politically, the geopolitical position of Turkey is far too important for the US. US simply cannot afford to lose Turkey. There is Iran, Russia, China, Europe, Middle East and Israel what the US needs to consider while making its foreign policy. Turkey is the only country who has relations with all these countries and regions with its booming economy and strong military force.
How would US ignore such a rising star in the region?
Akcam says “I believe that we will enter a new era where morality and real politik will not be considered mutually exclusive..."
Morality? As in misrepresenting an inter communal warfare as one way genocide? As in hiding the fact from audiences that Akcam is paid by Armenians (Cafesjian Foundation and Zoryan Institute?)
Real politik? As in Armenian still occupying by force 20% of Azerbaijan? And coveting territories of Turkey and Georgia? Still trying to get away with all this? Concerned about the rising regional and global power of Turkey?
Who needs who most is not for a paid Armenian agent or paid politicians to say.
Dear Morgan, You assume quite a lot. Why would you assume I might perhaps be "unfamiliar with the colloquial expression of 'young turk'." One does not spend 10 years at world-class universities and escape such knowledge. So take your condescending didactic tone someplace else.
What I am unfamiliar with is an understanding of Armenians' need to be so f***ing fair. The question is, do you want a show called The Young Turks in American living rooms every single night of the year? Maybe you do.
I've often said that what makes this situation so painful is that in every other way, my politics are completely aligned with Uygur's.
Moallemian? Are you Armenian?
I
I agree with Morgan on this one. Cenk is a decent guy and I am sure if you emailed him with your problem regarding his past views on the Armenian genocide he would clear everything up. As for the name "The Young Turks" I dont believe that this name is in any way provocative or controversial. Its a great show with a great host and I am fully behind them getting the 10 p.m. slot.
I have met Der. Varda only once, briefly and have been very much impressed. This was about 10 years ago. Just opened the Weekly and read the news. So sorry for him. May God bless him and his family. Give them patience.
I can only say that not only did we lose a wonderful priest, I personaly lost another brother, He will be sadly missed by his family, his parish, and by all the countless friends that he embraced
Where are those 2and halph miilion Armenians were living there before 1915 .
My generation never seen there grandparents .Whoo took fhere lives .
Hovagim
I will be leading my fifth home building team to Armenia from July 13th to 25th. Since the "Forum" participants will be in Yerevan at the same time, I would like to invite your members to join my team for a day or two. Last year Manishag Markarian from the U.S. Western Executive Board joined us for two days. Please talk to her about the experience. This invitation is at no cost to you. The Fuller Center for Housing Armenia transports us, guides us through the work day, provides lunch, etc. Love to have you.
-Leo
I do not wish to minimize the Armenian suffering, but I also do not want you to minimize Turkish suffering cause by Armenians. As for your question,the numbers used are a myth. The total population of the Armenian in the Ottoman Empire, according to official tax records of the empire in 1914 (before the Tereset = temporary resettlement) was 1,295,ooo. About 700,000 of them were subjected to the Tereset due to rebellions and treason. The rest stayed on where they were as they were not deemed a threat to the survival of the empire. Here is the accounting of the Armenian population:
About 400,000 fleed to Armenia; around 500,000 to Syria & Lebanon; about 60,000 to Egypt; 100,000-200,000 to Europe; 100,000+ the U.S., 60,000 to Asia; 30,000 to South America; 300,000 remained in Anatolia and other places.
Where do you think the Armenian Diaspora came from? The dead Armenians?
لقد قرات تاريخ الدول التي تحت سيطرة الدولة العثمانية انذاك فقد ابادت الكثير من الطوائف . بالاتفاق مع الحركة الوهابية والسلفية , لتقوم الاخيرة بغزو الناس والمجتمعات بتغطية رهيبة يحتار لها العقل بدهاءها من العثمانيين .
الدكتور ساجد شريف
Did you get that, everyone? We are all survivors and the descendants of survivors of a temporary resettlement. Tell us more, Ergun, do.
I wonder if it has occurred to the directors of NAASR that Akcam, on behalf of the Turkish government, may be putting out feelers to test the climate for acceptance by the Armenian community of a limited acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide?
Someone should tell Ward that Turkish Civilization is an oxymoron. The Turks had nothing to do with the ancient civilizations of "Turkey." That's not to say I don't applaud him for declining the invite. I do. Good for him.
You do know that it was the Young Turks who killed 1,500,000 Armenians. You don't find that provocative or controversial?
Thank you very much for laying out in a comprehensive way all the political elements around Armenian Genocide recognition, both the elements from outside the Armenian community and within it. It's one thing to read the news on a daily basis about the current affairs affecting recognition, but the way you've put those daily news events into a story, including interpretations of their significance, should be a wonderful resource for our political leaders.
It is troubling to learn that Taner Akcam mentions that Armenians should not ask for reparations and land returns back to the Armenian Nation. Turkey not only committed Genocide of 2 million Armenians but emptied their historical homeland of 3 thousand years, not counting the millions she forcibly made Moslems. My father from the Provence of Shabin Kara Hissar from the Village of Sis, lost his wife, 3 Children, his father, mother, and many relative. My mother from the Provence of Erzerum lost her husband, 2 children, father & mother and all her relatives and was the only survivor from her Village of Goteh. Armenians must wake up and call their Senators & Congressman, as well as the President on his promises on recognizing the Armenian Genocide.
No, you actually died but miraculously came back to life...
Oh, and reproduced, too! (smiles)
While the current Turkish government technically is not responsible for the genocide but it is responsible for the consequence of genocide, as the current German government is not responsible for Nazi era killings the current and past German governments shouldered the responsibility to meet its international obligations without denial. That is way, today when we discuss Holocaust and Germany, historians are carful to distinguish between the current and the past. I am surprised at Mr. Taner Akcam being a historian missed this point, or did he!
Kudos for your letter to the editor, "NAASR Panel Lacked Balance." It seems that many times we are so eager to gain acceptance in connection with the Genocide, especially by Turks, that we drop our guard (if we had one, to begin with, and fall victim to ploys that we could have foreseen had we been more circumspect and cautious.
Very informative Lalai. The notion of beads that are scattered is so intuitive. I look forward to many more of these articles. Your voice needs to be heard. Bravo my friend!
Love, Elize
Prepare to probably be very disappointed by Obama on April 24th. Whether you know it or not, Obama is a stealth Muslim. His christianity, like that of his pastor, is the pro-Muslim 'Palestinian' christianity that denies that the Old Testament and Jesus are Jewish. Most people don't know about this pro-Muslim christianity and therefore are completely blind sited on Obama as a stealth Muslim.
Armenia should be cementing its relationship to Russia now before Obama tightens the US strategic relationship to Turkey.
Read this Stratfor report: http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090330_united_states_germany_and_beyond
In the above article note:
"...in many ways, Turkey is more important to the United States than Germany is"
"The United States needs Turkey to extend its influence in Iraq to block Iranian ambitions, and north in the Caucasus to block Russian ambitions"
A further tightened alliance of the US with Turkey (which is re-Islamizing, no less) means the same with Azerbaijan and Georgia.
Without Russia, Armenian is history. The US and EU will not lift a finger if Turkey and/or Azerbaijan invade. Western centric Armenians take note.
No I dont find that provocative or controversial because as Morgan Moallemian said earlier he interprets the name to mean a rebel rouser or young up-start. He did not go out to name his show after a murderous group just to piss off the Armenians. You need to cool down a bit.
I lost my best friend of some 41 years and I'm having quite the problem of getting over it. His wife Pauline has giving me help in dealing with this. He was, without a doubt, the most humerous, faithful and compassionate man that I've even known. And even though we were only friends, he always told me that he loved me like a brother.
South Australia Passes Armenian Genocide Motion
ADELAIDE: An Armenian National Committee of Australia (ANC Australia)
delegation was present as South Australian Parliament's Legislative
Council passed a motion recognising the Armenian Genocide as "one of
the greatest crimes against humanity".
The motion, introduced by the Hon. David Ridgway MLC (Leader of the
Liberal Opposition in Legislative Council) and seconded by the
Hon. Bernard Finnigan (Member of the Labor Government in Legislative
Council) went through unopposed, and sees the Upper House of South
Australia's parliament join the New South Wales parliament in
condemning "the genocide of the Armenians and all other acts of
genocide".
However this motion is unique, as it is the first to include
recognition of recently-uncovered material detailing the significant
humanitarian effort by the people of South Australia who aided the
victims and survivors of the Armenian Genocide almost a century ago.
http://anc.org.au/news.php?extend.140
Bravo to David Boyajian for his stalwart efforts. Unfortunately while we might have won the No Place for Hate battle, I fear Armenians are losing the PR war with the Turks and their bosom buddies by a landslide! It's everywhere. People on the Huffington Post advising people to read Professor McCarthy, Steven Schlesinger writing about "Armenian disappearances." The list goes on and on. Without a central agency whose sole purpose it is to watchdog the media and counter every falsehood, I don't see how we can prevail.
Congratulations to David Boyajian for earning the 2009 Humanitarian Award from the Knights of Vartan for his role in exposing the Anti-Defamation League's anti-Armenian bias!
My father Levon knew Vartan for many years,my father helped Vartan get a job at Rhode Island Hospital. I always enjoyed seeing Vartan at the Rhodes on the Pawtuxet every year. May God Bless his family.
This guy thinks the entire fate of the Armenian nation rests on the ADL issue, as if it is going to liberate western Armenia, resolve the Karabagh issue, the situation of Armenians in Javakhk, and all other problems we are facing as a nation. There's a Turkish saying about the cow having only one song, and it being about the hay it eats!
One rather simple question to those who dislike Akcam for not advocating land reparations (which would be equivalent to signing his own deaths entence): How many Genocide scholars of any nationality--who live comfortably in the US--do you know that believe in land reparations to Armenians (giving away the entire Anatolia)and have openly spoken out about it? Here's another one: How many ARMENIAN scholars living in the comfort of their homes in the west have openly spoken about reclaiming Anatolia?
Just say it plainly, you hate Akcam because he is a Turk. And he causes problems by challenging your steryotypes of how a Turk should behave.
"Yeah, lets ignore the middle east peace process, lets turkey invade iraq again and again, let them make more and more ties with iran, let them ally with russia more and more, and enjoy further threats against israel - just to label an event done more than 100 years ago "genocide" - while there is still an academic debate going on on whether it actually was a genocide or not"
Sorry dear caucasian microstate, but you are not THAT important
Genocide Imbedded in My Genes
Genocide imbedded in my genes,
Impossible to remove by any means.
Even after my body ends moldy decayed;
By worms, mice, and cockroaches in raid.
My genes will speak the genocide.
Let the insects enjoy their meal,
Let them be satisfied with flesh to real,
Never want them to starve and sear.
This is their right as well as their land;
Hence, it is my right to speak and write.
About us: our forgotten genocide,
Not recognized yet by civilized lands!
From My Eight Book of poetry
E-mails: Beneath Blossoming Tree
Dedicated to President
Barrack Obama
And
His talented team
Have you dreamed sending
Your president Obama
One letter only?
Asking
How he reached to his reality.
Can another human achieve
What He did?
Did he dressed with new dermis?
Or
Reached by his talent
Coned with
Loving
Humanity
He’s continuing his mission
Organizing lectures to teach
For those can’t
Absorb
What does it mean
To sense soulfully
With every
Tragedy
Yours Faithfully
Armenian Poet for Obama
Sylva-MD-Poetry
I would call that a clear case of "double talk."
Tom's articles are ageless. There isn't one article of his I didn't enjoy. When are you going to publish a collection of his writings for posterity? "Vee" Sookikian
I would call that a Verbal gymnastics,
Pearl is right! barab khosk eh!!
Is it me, or does Gibbs sound like a left over from the Bush administration?
Actions speak louder than words. Let's see what he does in the next couple of weeks.
"A warm personal relationship....?" Is that why it looked like he and Gul were going to lock lips? I have been an Obama supporter from day one, but he was a little too happy in Ankara for my taste. Older family members are gagging over the wreath on AtaT's grave. I knew Obama could act, but he looked like he was on the verge of tears, as if he were about to approach the tomb (not that he has one) of Gandhi or someone of that stature.
Fear of Obama to use word genocide is not actual fear.
but of fear they can commit another secret genocide,
Already Turky are genociding the Kurds.
Every day new stories appear.
There is Arabic proverb which says,
"If you are unable to cut the hand
kiss and rest!"
Shows you how misguided the ANCA National Committee is. Was this the reason people were asked to support Obama? After almost 100 years, haven't we learned anything? How are Armenians supposed to move forward if they keep pulling from both sides in a tug of war?
Obama continues to dance while dodging the real questions. When he is "negotiating" with the world, at one point, they will consider him the fool. It reminds me of my daughter's second grade teacher who daily preached "love and peace." Leave it to the Armenians and the Turks to settle their own matters, he says. Thanks, Bud, for the support. We don't need Obama for that. This aside, tell me why would Turkey admit to a Genocide,any genocide, let alone the Armenian; are they crazy? They may not be the smartest people in the world, but, they are not the dumbest. At this point, the Armenians do not look like the smartest. Either we have to declare all out war on Turkey and bring them to their knees, which ain't happening...or, we have to get along, bite our lips, be smarter and put ourselves in the position to never again be killed by them. We must use our God given brains to get economically strong and financially powerful.
I am sorry to say, seated in California, both the Weekly and Harout Sasounian are asking the impossible from the President of the USA.
First.- 50% percent of the Press Conference of President Obama in Turkey was dedicated to the Armenian Genocide. Where, when and which US President have done that before? Don't you understand that this was an "arranged" question by the US President? which caught the president of Turkey off guard. After Obama's announcement, thousands of Turks demonstrated against him, burned his pictures and shouted Obama go Home, which you did not report.
Second.- he said the same thing afterwards in front of the stoned faced Turkish Generals, members of the parliament and the government of Turkey, who were not happy.
Third.- During the press conference President Obama said also (which you alluded) that soon new announcements will be made. The Foreign Minister of Armenia travelled suddenly to Ankara and met with President Obama. What do you think that announcement will be? Please guese.
Fourt.- The Armenian TV, the spoksman of the Armenian Government, happily announced and commented all transpired in Ankara yesterday.
why we have to sacrifice and japerdising everything over Armenia, a country best kept on life support by russia, supported by the iranian regim, both enemies of the west?
why we have to take armenian side, a country that occupies 20 % of Azerbaijan's territori, with the backing of russia and iranian regim, so that we can bring the NOBACCO project down? a progect that russia desperatly trying to dismantle so that the west will stay dependent on russia's oil and gas?
come on america let this demanding armenians loose with their best act of victimizing themselves for false-geneside issue that happend 100 years ago
Robert, are you really an American? (You probably are, judging by your poor grammar and spelling skills, and your espousing of revisionist history no doubt learned in our dismal public education system!)
Real Americans must support truth. Turkey will never admit to the truth of the Armenian genocide because their government is either in collaboration with or in fear of the Islamists in their midst.
judging peopel based on their poor grammatical mistakes is like judging a book by its cover and proves nothing but the person's narrow-mindedness and shallow point of view's on important matters that requires depth of knowledge and profesency.
like I said before, Armenia is russia's kept life on support poppet, we can't lose turkey and azerbaijan.
Azerbaijan pushes an independent policy of exporting its oil and gas, something that makes the big bully russia pissed off.
I tell you what the truth is, armenia has been thrown in the middle of the game to push azerbaijan and turkey farther away from their wesntern-friendly policies, bring them under Russia's control, so that they would happily shut down their oil and gas on west and let them freeze without any challenge by alternative energy routs.
Today Turkey is an economic powerhouse in the region, holding sway from Central Asia to North Africa. Its image of a democratic, secular and thriving Islamic country is sustained by unprecedented diplomatic efforts. In recent years it has opened some 12 embassies and 20 consulates across Africa, and last year acted as host in Istanbul to the first Turkey-Africa Cooperation Summit, attended by 50 African states at the highest levels.
what US and in general west will win by supporting Armenia, russia and iran's regim kept on life support puppet?
what landlocked armenia has got to offer? other than its 4 million diaspora, an army that works as Russia's pawn in in the court of world public opinion
You know This Armenian so called Genocide lie is taken some new dimension after the Jews sued and got great amount of money from Germany, but what happened to Jews in Germany is not the same what happened to Armenians in Turkey,Armenians in Turkey started uprising and killing many innocent women and children and the old while their husbands and brothers in the front fighting a war with foreign invaders mainly British and Greeks,no one was home to protect them, and they did some horrendous killings ,like burning them in their homes and mosques live,Armenians sided with Russians to fight the Turks,and sent man into Greek army for the same reason,they did kill just like they killed thousands of Azeri people in Khochali just 16 years ago which was condemned by United Nations,Turks won the war all fronts and gained their republic,and they just simply wanted to deport the enemy with in,the enemy who Turks thought were friend and allowed them to reach highest positions in their government and society for 700 years, but how wrong they were Armenians were waiting to destroy Turkey with in and this was their opportunity, Empire was weaken and venerable they Russia who wanted to have access to Mediterranean sea and Russians seized the opportunity and offered the Armenians their own province inside Turkey if they are to attack and killed and expel the Turks from their land, that was the deal Armenians took from the Russians and they made the biggest mistake of betraying their home nation ,during the deportation of killers not all Armenians many still live in Turkey today just the Armenian killers, some perished,not 1.5 million more like 150 000 and it was a war,not a genocide,this Armenian poor me pity me and give me propaganda Will not work, money will not come,some US rep. taken money ,like Adam Schiff of Glendale and others like Rdanowich,Kollenberg from Armenian lobby,and totally disregard US interest in return,Turks are NATO member,second largest military after us in NATO,Armenians on the other hand are Russia's best friend,go figure,l call it treason Adam Schiff.,and others who are sought to damage US and Turkish alliance. you should resign from US congress,you are a traitor.
The forum in the website of the Young Turks radio program has a new post called 'Turkish-Armenian Problem.' Is the Ugur90 who posts comments denying the Armenian Genocide the same Cenk Uygur who is a co-host of this radio show? Co-host Ana Kasparian condemns Armenian Genocide denial in her post.
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2009/4/7/165157/3773/Diary/Turkish-Armenian-Problem
You may want to comment on this piece
http://www.redcounty.com/d%E2%80%99obama-arminian-deception-%E2%80%93-it-depend-what#comment
Before preaching to others to live up to their "illustrious revolutionary history", the "Indignant Armenian" should have the decency and courage not to hide his/her/their identity.
Kudos to the indignant Armenian for saying what no one will. This is a call to action to the ARF and the entire Armenian world.
The publication of the letter by Indignant Armenian is journalism and the fourth state at this best--the sharing of opinions, airing of criticism, and a paper not being afraid to allow a critic of its organization to air his/her opinions.
Does it really matter if it was anonymous or not? If someone is thinking it and they back up their thesis with facts and history. Then it shouldn't matter. Questioning the validity of an argument by pointing to his/her anonymity is a weak response.
I would be curious to hear your take on the issue at hand Mr. Manoyan. You have a keen perspective on the matter, being the ARF's political director.
How will the organization handle an onerous treaty from inside the heart of a new democracy it is helping establish as part of its government?
Will the ARF leave the coalition government it has worked from within to strengthen? What do you expect the reaction of Armenians to be to the Armenian government (and by extension the ARF) once the dubious nature of Turkey's drive to normalize relations is revealed?
Or will the ARF work from within government to, perhaps, present checks and balances to go along with whatever agreements are being made, such as caps on how much turkish product comes in, how many business are allowed to establish in Armenia, fair trade agreements or duty free access to ports?
How will the ARF justify, yet again, its involvement in an oppressive and corrupt government unconcerned with the interests of the Armenian people?
Once again, I commend the Armenian Weekly for publishing this article and providing a true forum for discussion. It is truly unprecedented in recent history to have an ARF paper allow for such professional airing of opinions. This should serve as an example to other Armenian outlets, especially in this new age of the Internet when all voices are heard equally, as they should always be.
As a Turkish person who had not even heard of the Armenian deportation and massacres until my mid teens, and looking at the issue as a third person without emotional involvement, I would say that the diaspora is not going after the quickest route to the settlement of the issue. 95% of the people in Turkey do not have sympathies to the Armenian cause. No matter how harsh the international shunning, no government in Turkey would ever even come close to signing up for responsibility for the doings of the Ottoman government. The public sentiment in Turkey is already drifting away from the West - so the EU or US pressure might only mean so much. I think the only way to be able to reconcile the past will be possible when the Turkish society itself is ready for it. So, rather than alienating the Turks with a hateful face, the diaspora would better serve it's cause by making friends with the Turkish public and then the government would naturally take the necessary steps. A major change of course is needed as this one is not working. Hate and anger only begets hate and anger. A peaceful closure and honoring the dead is only possible with love and compassion.
jake you talk like a true turk. turks NEVER change they just change their masks depending who they want to decieve next.
I agree with Garo,
who do you think you are "Indignant Armenian”. unfortunately you among many others seem to think by just throwing factoids in your "opinion" piece, you make some kind of sense worse yet you know what you are talking about. I have news for you: YOU DON'T.
While I would like to agree with you Vartan, anyone who has such strong views as "indignant armenian" should take full responsiiblity for them.
It is easy to hide behind an anonymous cape... after all that is what the kkk did /does; and what so many others throughout history have done.
Too bad "idignant armenian" is not as strong as s/he would like others to be.
The only reason why an identity would matter in this case is if you are all planning on attacking the merits of his/her argument by attacking him/her. Alas, not a single person has offered a reasonable, sophisticated rebutle to anything "indignant armenian" has said. These are how arguments played out when I was in middle school.
I have also not received answers to my questions either. I think they are valid questions.
John, you made an argument in your post that "indignant armenian" does not know what he/she is talking about. Please provide logical premises to back your strong conclusions. Do you mean to say the "factoids" presented are wrong? if so please point out the mistakes and inaccuracies rather than just attacking his/her character.
Too bad, clearly it has been made apparent that if someone in the Armenian community voices opinions such as those presented in this article, they would open themselves up to petty insults and attacks rather than discourse and debate. I for one understand why one would choose to stay anonymous...the Armenian community treats criticism like a cancerous tumor and nips it in the bud before it spreads. The sad reality is that this sort of criticism is necessary if we as a people are to learn from past mistakes and move forward.
The same hatred exhibited in your reactions to Jake "the true turk" are those you all exhibit against your fellow Armenian. This is sad.
But yet again, I commend the Armenian Weekly for providing a forum for debate and discourse, despite your attempts to lower it to the level of bickering on the playground field.
I hate to point out the obvious but neither of you have revealed your identities either. Not that it matters...except that it makes the two of you look like really big hypocrites.
Kudos to the AYF Junior Seminar Committee for a year of hard work to make the this unique AYF event a success. I remember, many moons ago, as an AYF Junior from the San Francisco AYF Rosdom Chapter, being part of a West Coast delegation travelling to Camp Lutherlyn for Junior Seminar. It was the most fun I had ever had listening to eight lectures in one weekend! Now, decades later, seeing my juniors in Washington DC excited to go to Junior Seminar - I continue to marvel at the great work successive Junior Seminar Committees do.
Thanks, Armenian Weekly, for spotlighting the dedicated youth leaders who will help make this year's Junior Seminar a memorable time for a new generation of AYFers.
“Indignant Armenian” starts and ends his article by accusing the ARF of being “resigned” to the fact of normalization and simply “worrying about when the ax will drop, instead of stopping it.”
I wonder, Mr. or Ms. Indignant, if you are aware of the numerous public statements, press conferences and declarations the ARF has put out calling for transparency on the part of Armenian negotiators, warning against any forfeiting of Armenia’s national rights, and opposing any questioning of the historical facts of the Armenian Genocide (many of the same points you repeat)? If not, see the links below for references.
Are you not aware of the letter ARF Parliament Member, Armen Rustamian, sent to the US Congress where he calls for passage of the Genocide Resolution and specifically seeks to neutralize the use of Armenian-Turkish negotiations for stifling recognition? If not, see below.
Are you not aware that ARF Parliamentarians regularly warn of the pitfalls of opening the border and push the government to instill measures that will adequately insulate the country and economy from such dangers?
Are you also not aware that the ANCA has been at the forefront of tirelessly pushing for US Genocide recognition and revealing the dubious intent of Turkey since the beginning of the so-called Soccer Diplomacy process? Once again, see below.
Are you equally unaware of the fact that the AYF-YOARF has initiated an online petition campaign calling for caution in Armenian-Turkish negotiations? See below if this is the case.
Contrary to your conclusion, it seems to me that, through such measures and others, the ARF is seeking to utilize its position within the coalition and broader Armenian society to mobilize public opinion and put pressure against any decisions which would harm the interests of the Armenian nation. I would hardly describe this as being “resigned.” The fact that you don’t mention the work it’s doing but, rather, paint a picture of it as sold-out, timid, and reserved is, in my eyes, not only misleading, it is intellectually irresponsible.
Furthermore, you offer no concrete proposals or suggestions on how to move forward. The article is full of analysis and broad criticisms but no alternative strategies or solutions.
Instead of contributing solutions, it simply calls on the ARF to “live up to its illustrious revolutionary history.” One is left to wonder what exactly that means. Does that mean it should leave the internal reforms and impact on decisions it is pursuing in the coalition and hand the government solely to the likes of the President, Arthur Baghdasaryan, and Gagik Tsarukyan? Does it mean it should hit the streets alongside Levon Ter Petrossian? Or maybe it means that it should take up arms and attempt to overthrow the government?
The point here is that it is not clear what you are suggesting. All that is clear is that you are targeting and attempting to scrutinize the one actual entity in the Armenian world that is consistently working to defend the rights and welfare of our community.
ARF Position on Negotiations:
http://www.asbarez.com/#AMC=Open&ASBSC=Closed
http://www.asbarez.com/#AMC=Open&ASBSC=Closed
http://www.asbarez.com/#AMC=Open&ASBSC=Open
http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2009/02/36198191-72cd-4ffb-b53f-7289c2716915.asp
Armen Rustamian Letter to US Congress:
http://yerkir.am/news/?id=1358
ANCA Official Statement on "Soccer Diplomacy":
http://anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=1578
AYF Online Petition Campaign:
http://armenianweekly.com/2009/02/13/ayf-sponsors-petition-for-%E2%80%98responsible-armeno-turkish-relations%E2%80%99/
There are many Armenians who have reached the conclusions articulated by "Indignant Armenian". Some simply replace the name "ARF" with the Armenian organization of their choice, including Armenia and its government. These Armenians have fallen by the wayside as did their families on death marches into the Syrian deserts, leaving Armenia and its diaspora in the “hands” of those who haven’t earned positions of leadership, yet occupy them.
As pointed out, Armenians survived well under hegemonic dominance. This resulted in indigenous national leadership not able to spontaneously develop, mature, and learn from its mistakes. Add to this a genocide and a culture of leadership was never allowed to be past down through the generations. Today, the average Armenian has little to emulate on a national level, with each pursuing his/her own destiny, void of a collective direction. This situation is similar to that of Jews before the advent of modern Zionism.
To Jake the Turk, “love and compassion” may have a place in Turkish soap operas but they have nothing to do with hard reparations the Turkish genocide of the Armenians demand.
The sad reality is that what is written on these pages will be read by at most several hundred people.
E mail to President Obama,
I’m sure you can loudly
Sung in your land—
Where you thrived and played
But never somewhere else—
Where every bribed
Humans, sing there...!
You’re surrounded
By so real enemies
Even if you scream
No body wants to hear.
Thanks for your comments
You can’t do better
We will solve our problems
Sooner or later!
And please take care!
"Western Amenia"? Wonder where you get a visa? Nothing like living in an alternative universe to sell books. Why give up a a good scam that has worked for years. Afterall, fantasy relieves the boredom of the real situation that RA Armenians have to live in. They don't have the luxury of buying books.
From a number of the posts here, it seems that the message cannot be separated from the messenger. It will suffice to say that the reasons for anonymity of the author are not aimed at the ARF (the author has immense respect for the principles that the organization was founded upon). Also, it is noteworthy that the author contributes significantly to community affairs and is not a Monday morning quarterback.
The point of the piece was not to point fingers at the ARF, as this organization does most of what is being done today anyway, especially in the Diaspora (the author is well aware of the efforts mentioned by Mr. Aprahamian, but thank you for the thoughtful presentation of these points here). The activities of the organization in Armenia are a completely separate issue from those of the Diaspora in the author's opinion.
The point was of a larger complacency amongst us all Armenians and the manner and direction in which the nation is stirred in by the government. Also, the point was not to simply complain either. The goal is to start a dialogue and work towards concrete steps to resolve some of the points brought about in the article. The author will provide concrete points towards solutions of issues brought forth here in near future from his/her point of view. But, this is a process that will require input from all concerned individuals, especially folks who cared enough to read this long opinion piece and respond to it one way or another. Both positive and negative comments are very much appreciated by the author as long as the energy associated with them can be channeled into something positive. Maintaining a healthy and open dialogue on this issue and deliberation of possible solutions is what we can only accomplish together.
Respectfully yours,
IA
If the Ottoman Turks wanted to eradicate the Armenians, why'd they wait till 1915? Why didn't they do it at the height of their power in the 16th and 17th centuries? Or why didn't they do it systematically during their 600-year reign over three continents? It doesn't make sense. In 1915, the Ottomans were fighting a war on several fronts, and facing treachery and treason from within their borders, and their people were starving, and they suddenly decide to carry out a holocaust on an ethnic group who had lived within their borders without a problem for 6 centuries?
Regarding transparency, an important start would be for the ANC/ARF to more clearly and specifically communicate to constituencies it claims to represent about where it stands re: Turkish-Armenian rapprochement and how it is dealing with an irresponsible and unresponsive government in Armenia. (And if we don't like what the ANC/ARF is doing, it is up to us to make sure these organizations represent our views if they aren't.) The phrase "Turkish-Armenian reconciliation" has been repeated so often in media, academia and elsewhere that Armenians are using the word themselves, and dare I say, getting co-opted. I don't believe there can be rapprochement until the well-known and outstanding issues are put to rest. I am not sure the ANC/ARF agrees with this view anymore. Regarding cultivating strong leaders, a critical start would be for our diasporan (dare I say homeland) activists and leadership to receive formal schooling in political leadership, diplomacy and negotiation. The best way to do this is to create a training institute. Patriotic sentiment is not enough. Was there not to be a General Dro Academy in Armenia?
This is an interesting post and I can understand the angry feelings toward the show's name. I am an occasional co-host and producer on the show, and I am Armenian. So with that said, let me fill you in on what the show is all about.
TYT (I like calling it that rather than The Young Turks) is a political commentary and pop culture show. While the host is Turkish, we have an extremely diverse staff. Cenk Uygur (the host) never denied the Genocide. When he was in college, he argued that although the genocide did occur, he didn't believe it was considered a "genocide."
But just the other day, he and I discussed the genocide on the show, he and literally admit that the genocide DID happen, and that the Turks SHOULD acknowledge it. I think the most important thing for Armenians right now is to establish better relations with their neighbors. But in order for that to happen, the Turks need to apologize and the Armenians need to accept it and move on.
Anyway, our show has nothing to do with Turkish anything. I hope you can be as open minded as I have been and accept that.
Also, that post by Ugur90 is not written by the Cenk Uygur who hosts the show.
By john on April 9th, 2009 at 2:23 pm " ....jake you talk like a true turk. turks NEVER change they just change their masks depending who they want to decieve next."
John, seriously? ...well, I am only writing back as I believe I wasn't articulate enough to make my point earlier. I am saying Armenians and Turks alike, we need to support the opening of the border, support good Turkish/Armenian relationships - because only then the peoples of these lands will start to interact, and get to know each other. And, when that happens, they will understand each other, and when that happens, public sentiments will change, and when that changes, real change will come, and be reflected in the actions of the government itself. Look at the heaps of change that occurred in Turkey regarding the Kurdish issue, as peoples interacted more and more during the last few decades. And please stop hating the average person that lives in Turkey (i.e. your earlier comments to me) - this hate makes no sense - and only begets a knee jerk reaction. If this generation cannot manage to turn hatred into understanding, it will only lead to aggression - and I don't think that's what anyone wants.
The author is correct that a complete Turkish Armenian participation is necessary for any serious effort. Unfortunately, despite the "apology" campaign, the general Turkish populace is far from ready for any semblance of truth, mercy, justice and peace.
Jake, most people here are objecting to relations between Armenia and Turkey at the state level.
But author does not says the reason behind Turkey's decision to close border - the one of them is Armenia does not accept its border with Turkey as such and claim some territory from them . Secondly Armenia refuses to discuss so called genocide although that was offered numerous times by Turkish officials to make a open scientific study on genocide claims based on archives from both Armenia and Turkey plus Russian. Armenia refuses that. The TSK published study on so called armenian genocide on their web site . That was based on archive materials :
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/Ermeni_Sorunu.htm
Too bad we cannot/do not engage or even explore these points that IA has raised. Instead, we act like robots following what is considered the norm.
I agree with IA, because most of the organizations (which we have been members of for decades if not more) we look to for inspiration since historically it has always been on the fronts of these battles.
From my experience, I feel that these organizations only limits our thoughts and actions instead of advancing the cause. I think that is what has made the author indignant. Perhaps its the way our organizations operate which needs to be changed. Perhaps its the people running or planning the events that needs to be altered. One thing is certain, change is necessary but people are afraid of it and not until a few people like Indignant Armenian mange to voice what is that we are afraid to say ourselves do we begin to criticize and analyze these thoughts.
Thank you IA!
Thank you for showing us that Obama is a fraud when it comes to promises he made to Armenian during his campaign. I almost beleived that he would take a stand when he had the opportunity and challenge the Turkish Government to recognize "a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence…”. He should have just been honest with the Armenians and not made false statements. I am glad I did not vote for him.
A scam indeed. Can Mr. Hovannisian please also answer why he invited Turks from Turkish universities to an 'Armenian studies' conference who talked about 'Ottomanism amongst the Anatolian Armenians after the 1908 Revolution." The Turks used the anti-scholastic and anti-Armenian Turkish term for Western Armenia by FALSELY calling it "Anatolia" and Mr. Hovannisian not only invited, approved and THANKED the Turks but he also tried to defend why he invited them. That conference included falsifiers like Robert Thomson and Peter Cowe who say that the Fifth Century Father of Armenian History (the very foundation of Armenian History) is a pseudo-historian once again one of the opening speakers chosen by Mr. Hovannisian was this notorious falsifier of Armenian history Robert Thomson.
Even more so, the lecture by the speaker from the Turkish government university was an apologia of the Young Turks and their policy of "Ottomanism," supposedly, the Young Turks were the good guys for most part minus that nasty radical trio of Enver, Talaat and Cemal that took over the leadership and are the ones responsible for the Armenian genocide, and not the Young Turks/Turkish government.
It will take really Herculean efforts to put Armenian history on its true and scholastic course after decades of distortion and falsification 'thanks' to "Robert Thomsons" and "Peter Cowes" who have been endlessly endorsed and promoted by Mr. Hovannisian to a full pulp.
TIME is a fair judge and it never falters as Truth always comes into the open and becomes the supreme judge of all.
The problem with post-recognition efforts is that Armenians are not ready to "start pressing for reparations and restitution." As you point out no diasporan organizations are actively campaigning to make headway on these issues for reasons I have never clearly understood. The Armenian government does not express any desire to address the issue of reparations, as it has no preconditions for establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey (the negotiations for which already seem to be failing). Until Armenians on a united front are willing to discuss and work towards realizing the transfer of reparations and restitution, no post-recognition progress will be made. In fact, assuming that the US finally accepts the Armenian genocide, all potential efforts could perhaps come to a complete standstill. Armenians cannot afford to be stuck in a "now what" situation. US recognition of the Genocide should not be an end-all solution.
Let's face it, in this world, it's a rare person indeed who stands up for what is right and trusts that if they do the chips will fall where they may. No, everything is weighed out politically.
Most people, including most US politicians, have yet to grow a pair.
In recent weeks, Turkish and odar media reps have noticed that comments about land reparations have cropped up after a long, dormant period with no mention of it. It is not hard to imagine what they will say if and when there is no talk of reparations at all: not only the usual blasphemy that such claims are supposedly unjustified, but that by their very silence on the matter, Armenians have obviously relinquished territorial claims and can never, ever reintroduce or advocate for them!
The sad facts about Armenian Americans:
1) Not only have many Armenian American academicians been compromised, but many of their heads are stuck in "archives," as if the truth of the Armenian genocide is not already known, and as if academic research is somehow a sufficient substitute for political demands and political work.
2)Diasporan political parties have apparently forgotten all about the reparations and land issues, except for an occasional mention to fool people. They are forfeiting their right to lead and represent us.
3) Armenian Americans have become ensnared in the downright silly "dialogue and reconciliation" trap set by the U.S. State Dept., Turkey, and certain other players. Thus, we are now being told that the genocide is a mere psychological hangup on the part of Armenians and that everything will be OK if only Armenians and Turks can meet, renovate a church or two, hug and kiss each other, and weep buckets of tears.
They have done a good job of having Armenians keeping busy debating and mourning. So more of the same for the second century?
Wow... pretty harsh comments.
[1] Academics are mostly that academics. They are not generals.
[2] Diasporans, me included, have a hard time accepting that we are not citizens of the country that is negotiating on behalf of the Armenians: the Republic of Armenia.
[3] The words of Khirimian Hayrig still resonate and we still do not have the "yergati sherup"
[4] Lastly, Richard Hovannisian is an Armenian National Treasure as is Peter Balakian and others. Bashing them brings the fight between us and not who we should really be confronting.
The restitution of Western Armenia can only be achieved through strengthening of present day Armenian Republic which is the rightful heir to the Treaty of Sèvres of a Free, Independent and UNITED ARMENIA. President Wilson signed the document and charted the map. The government of the Republic of Armenia, the Allies/Triple Entente (including all major powers - United States, Great Britain, Russia, France etc.) and the government of Turkey. All the parties have agreed to the Treaty of Sèvres. Republic of Armenia is the lawful claimant to the Treaty and ALL Armenians should work to strengthen RA in every field, including internally and internationally.
The type of "dialogue" with Turks from Turkish government universities who call Armenia "Anatolia" like what Richard Hovannisian is doing is in fact binding, because it gives "credence" to the erroneous topography of "Eastern Anatolia." The Turks introduced this falsified notion in the 1940s and really enforced it after 1980s. The Turks tried to enforce the notion that the Young Turks/Turkish government were overall good and were simply taken over by "few" evil leaders like Enver and Talaat. Once again, quite clear what they are trying to do here.
los turkos son agresivos y estupidos.
The Genocide committed against the Armenians by the young Turk government, in their Homeland ,is a Crime not only against the Armenians, but a Crime against Humanity,which shall not be repeated anywhere .
By not recognizing. the US is leaving the door open to be accused of Genocide denial
I applaud Congresswoman Palosy for her stand to clear the record straight
"The restitution of Western Armenia can only be achieved through strengthening of present day Armenian Republic"
There is no such thing as "can only"
The restitution of Western Armenia can also be achieved through strengthening of present day Western Armenians, which means the Diaspora
The "strengthening of present day Western Armenians" can only mean the preservation of Armenian identity and culture and of course most importantly keeping the memory of yergir and our heritage alive. My point is that the world operates by international laws - and more broadly (in the political/diplomatic sphere) treaties. And to repeat what I said, the Republic of Armenia is today THE lawful claimant to the Treaty of Sèvres which is the only realistic, legal action (option) of the rightful restitution of Western Armenia to the present day Republic of Armenia. Once again the enforcement of this crucial Treaty has been signed (August 10, 1920) and adhered to by the Turkish government, the Allies and Armenia (all the concerned parties).
Liberation of Western Armenia through armed means is not a feasible option, even if our armed forces were able to achieve this task in the near future, in all regards the first option is correct, because it is based on a legal format that is already secured (via a recognized Treaty) which is not the case even if you will have a de facto victory on the battlefield you still have to have a de jure (diplomatic) victory which is in fact harder to secure and can take decades if not centuries.
As early as 1919, during the Paris Conference Peace Talks (which led to the eventual signing of the Treaty of Sèvres), there were two delegations - one from the Republic of Armenia - headed by Avedis Aharonian, which represented in the international arena a country (within the international norm - a political entity of highest order) - and another one that was the headed by Boghos Nubar Pasha. The Allies placed the primacy of negotiation with the Aharonian delegation of the Armenian Republic, once again because they recognized the representatives of a country/nation (Republic of Armenia) with all the legal implications of the architecture of treaties operating within the framework of nation states. Also, do not forget that a good deal of the population of the Armenian Republic was genocide survivors from Western Armenian, so not only the legal but also the moral dimension of restitution was and is fulfilled in this regard. Boghos Nubar Pasha was greatly admired by Armenians and non-Armenians alike (and should be for all his great work and philanthropy) but after months of negotiations he also came to this realization. Today, the Treaty of Sèvres, still remains the international legal architecture for the three Rs (recognition, restitution, retribution), so once again in this regard a "strong Armenia" (economically, politically and socially) means, that the Republic will not succumb to any kind of "economic pressure," from within and without, will stick to its guns and fully stand by not only the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, but also the diplomatic/legal enforcement of the Treaty of Sèvres.
Mike, sad to say, I would not worry too much about regaining Western Armenia or getting reparations from Turkey. You see, the Armenian diasporan political parties have, in effect, given up on these things but won't tell their constituents for fear of their negative reaction.
At this point, all we have left for our cause is "genocide acknowledgment," and we will get that from Turkey only with a formal agreement that no reparations and territory demands will ever be made.
This situation can change if we install the right leaders, but that probably won't happen. We Diasporans brainwashed ourselves into thinking that genocide acknowledgement was the end all and be all, and even our younger generations believe that. The Diaspora and Armenia are now paying the price for our folly.
Today's Armenia is a relatively small country, and does not have abundant natural resources. Since Turkish gate is closed, Armenia has been seeking other options, and recently signed economic agreements with Iran.
Some people from Armenia should stop slandering and really should start working for their country.
If Turks would had wanted to erase Armenian race from the world they could be able to do it in 800 years...While the old Christian Holy office "the Inquisition" was destroying 5,000 people for pointless reasons, your "barbar" "muslim" Turks accepted and lived with people from all different religions...I wanted to finish my response with this statement: I do not believe any of us superior to anyone. Armenians has great artists and scientists, at some level you are superior than everyone, at some level the others are better than you. Just keep the peace...
Honorable Turkish citizen of Armenian descendant ARTIN PENIK is going to live forever in our hearts!
Dear Ms. Kasparian:
Even if a Turkish Prime Minister acknowledges the genocide, the next PM can easily withdraw that acknowledgment.
And I have news for you: Armenians have land and reparations claims. So, we are not going to, as you suggest, "move on," even if Turkey does issue an acknowledgment.
Ms. Kasparian, I'd like to see you publicly suggest that Jews should have "moved on" after 1946 (when Germany acknowledged the Holocaust) and not sought and received the countless billions in reparations they have received and continue to receive. My point is, you will tell Armenians to "move on," but you would never criticize Jews in the same way.
Maybe, Ms. Kasparian, you and your Young Turks should be the ones who do the "moving on."
I agree that there is a pressing need for Accurate and Responsible Reporting of interviews, and I would say more so in Armenia than Turkey. But there is a very simple means of solving that problem. When I gave interviews on my 'Blowing the World Bank Whistle' action, I did so on specific agreement that, whilst I did not limit the freedom of opinion or emphasis by the writer, I had the right to check the correctness of information given by me in the final statement prior to release.
Armenian opposition news organizations have always agreed to this condition, and as a result I have never had cause to complain about the published facts. State-sponsored news organizations have mostly refused, so I declined to give an interview. I recommend that all honest persons should follow this procedure when giving interviews.
Press conferences are more difficult to regulate in this manner, although it is possible, and as a general comment, the quality of reporting by most of the Armenian media (especially state-backed) is nothing less than disgraceful.
To Arius
Armenia will never be history. If your thinking is Moscow is somehow allied with Armenia out of the kindness of its heart is a joke. I laughed. Russia needs Armenia badly. Armenia is the only country blocking Russia's weakening and eventual downfall. The only thing floating Russia and promising its future is massive oil and gas transit from Central Asia to Europe. If azeris invade they will suffer the same fate as before. turks being an American outpost will never be allowed to invade. If they do it will be the beginning of the dismantling of the "turkey". A Happy Thanksgiving that would be!
Obama will not recognize Armenian Genocide because he is a politician (who is expert in playing many tricks) not a just person. Just persons and politicians do not walk on the same rope. Those 400 Organizations should support Armenia to build an atomic bomb rather than waiting to be recognized by others' empty recognitions.
We Armenians need to stop making such a stink about this non-issue. What's next...objection to the use of the word "Turk," or even "Ottoman" (Just Say 'NO' to Ottoman footstools, write to your nearest furniture store!)?
Neither Taner Akcam, nor Muge Gocek, nor the 30,000 Turks who have signed a letter of apology speak for the over 70-million Turks. However, they are entitled to their opinion.
It is also illogical to compare the Japanese-American relocation during World War II to that of the Armenians during World War I. The Japanese-Americans did not have an army of over a hundered-thousand men; they did not claim land from the United States, nor did they revolt against their country. The Armenians did all of the above.
The situation is different. The Japanese-Americans deserved an apology and a symbolic compensation; the Armenians who had committed treason and killed thousands of their countrymen do not.
Mrs. E. Baker
Criticizing generalizationist mentality regarding the apology campaign but applying it to the Ottoman Armenians at the same time?
Dear sir Mr Obama.
for 94 years what the Armenians went through,promises made by world leaders,then neglected,ignored,ridiculed.but as an individual and proud Armenian,what hurt me more is a comment made by a shamless Mr Shimon Peres in 2000 when congress where ready to pass a resolution for the recognition of the Armenian genocide.(we reject attempts to create a similarity between the holocaust and the Armenian allegations nothing similar to a holocaust occur it was a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide).
1-mr Shimon Peres comparisons are not useful.
2-Mr Shimon Peres you are a politician not an historian and therefore you don`t have the knowledge to make such comments.
3-and the world leaders letting him get away with it.
4-reason politics?is this what America stand for (for its own interest)
Mr Obama I am sure you will do the right thing.
the best to you.
from down under.melbourne Australia.
Antoine kouchakdjian
First of all author makes big mistakes in his analysis. His analysis is basically useless and nonesense and designed as further material for the fascistic parts of the Armenian diaspora and church. It is also questionable who the 30,000 people were who signed up to the so called nonesense "apology campaign". Given that more than 70 thousand Armenians live in Turkey and given that this is internet, I don't think that all of 30 thsd people are Turks. I would suggest that at least 90 percent of those who signed the letter are Armenians or else who used the Turkish names to sign up to this useless and illogical campaign.
So called big armenian lie "Armenian genocide" is lie used by the armenian church and the diaspora to mobilize armenians, to collect money and to prevent their assimilation in among other christian. it is just unfortunate that they have chosen Turks as scapegoats. But fascistic groups of the rottening armenian diaspora is nothing to be able to do anything to Turkey. Note that it is no longer 1990s when US and Europe dominated the world, who are the biggest supporters of christian armenians.
Dear Mr. Feegee and Mr. haroutunian,
I am a fan of TYT and do agree with Ms. Kasparian that has nothing to do with Turkish nationalism or denial or the Armenian holocaust.
The unfortunate misunderstanding is due to the show's name. I'm sure that in retrospect a different name would have been chosen, and if selected to fill the 10PM slot on MSNBC I doubt the show would continue with the same name.
Cenk Uygur and Anna Casparian are great. There is no other show currently being broadcast that offers such an intelligent, common sense take on current events, politics and popular cultutre.
I am sorry that the show's name causes pain to some and also regret if Mr. Uygur has had hurtful views in the past. From listening to the show over the past three years, Mr. Uygur has shown nothing but respects to all cultures, and Ms. Kasparian always talks with pride about her Armenian heritage.
Let's give the show the chance that it deserves on its own merrits and hope that they rename the show.
Why wait for Turks to acknowledge the Genocide. The whole has already done this. Its time to talk reparation with the Turks. That will shake them up more.
You will also have to acknowledge the Kocaly Genocide and ethnic cleansings (genocide) of Azeri Turks in Irevan, Goyce and Zangezur Khanates of West Azerbaijan
Forget about the Anatolian Festivals and Turkish Children's Days of Aprils past and prepare yourselves for hell on earth. Think tanks like these will try to persuade US media to use April 24 to report not about the Armenian Genocide, "Armenian Rebellions", "the Khojaly Genocide", and/or "Remembrance Day for Slain Turkish Diplomats."
Ah yes, the roadmap to "nowhere" for Armenia. Or is it "over the cliff"?
The US obviously pushed this "roadmap" to provide Saint Barack Obama (also known as "President" Obama or, to you Obamaniacs, "His Holiness") with yet another excuse to not use the G word for April 24.
Too bad that the leadership in Armenia is not smart enough to see through this. It is hard to understand why a political party that has a proud history of over 100 years would want to be part of the ruling coalition (or should we call it an unruly coalition?) under these circumstances. By the way, what exactly is the ARF's "roadmap"?
1)History is not a propaganda. Why don't you allow historians (not politicans) work independently and freely on documents and all evidences?
2)Turkey is a strong and powerful country with 75 million population. Turkey does not need USA or EU or another country.
3)It was a conflict between Armenians and Ottoman Turks. Unfortunately, a lot of people lost their lifes from both sides.
4)The end.
Is this part of the Armenians and the Left / Progressive Politics conference, or is that not being organized this year?
This is the year for Armenians to let go of their hatred towards Turks as the rest of the world is working towards peace. Let the countries of Armenia and Turkey to normalize with time their ties and policies. It should not be in the hands of the diaspora or lobbies to interfere. When will you get it?
The most reputable historian, Mr. Bernard Lewis, says that there was no genozide. This alone would be enough to call for a commission of historians to find out the truth, but unfortunately Armenia itself is not willing and does not open its archives. They will know why.
Lalai,
I read this issue of scattered beads, and knowing that we have the freedom today to talk and publish this way helps me heal. God has his timeline. Resolution for our people's suffering will come with His time. It will be glorious for us Armenians and the world. I know it. I do not believe that the amount of blood and tears shed will go unnoticed.
Thank you for being you. An Armenian diasporan independent and educated woman. God bless you Lalai.
Love,
Elize
ps: You rock!
This is the year for the deniers of GENOCIDES to look deep into their hearts and soul and with clear mind they should try to see objectively that what the Ottoman Turks inflicted upon the Armenian People, it constitutes a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. The world can live in peace only and only if the citizens of each and every country learn from the past and take the necessary steps to avoid that such crimes do not take place during their life time.
Today, the same Turkish government which refuses to recognize the Armenian Genocide, this same Turkish government is doing all it can to protect the Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, when it is well known that his regime is committing genocide by unleashing militias on ethnic Africans in the Darfur region.
The aggrieved will continue to speak eloquently about historic injustices and legitimate demands, no matter how many times the apologists and descendants of the perpetrators try to twist things around, suggesting that the aggrieved and deported are nothing more than "hateful" people.
"Historic Commission" welcomed by Akcam
Hurriyet
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11484056.asp?scr=1
I would like to know name of the countries in world that officially recognize Armenian Genocide? So far I know France, Canada, Russia and Greece are on the list. thanks
Dear Reader 1:
Actually, it is time for Turkey to let go of the property and territory it stole from Armenians and Assyrians.
Dear Lalai,
Young and educated you are; this is the kind of people we need to-day. My generation- my parents were survivors - is passing you a heavy burden, a very heavy one to carry indeed, and I feel sad about it. My heart aches seeing your battle to heal our wounds, to pierce unpenetrating walls, publishing columns as you do, and stuggle all the way for the recognition of the armenian genocide. But remember, dear Lalai, we will be the winner one day.
All the best for glorious days and victory on this darkest day of our history.
Christine Dirtadian Kouyoumdjian
Dear Tony Tokhian:
The following are countries have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide:
* Argentina; Armenia; Belgium; Canada; Chile; Cyprus; France; Greece
* Italy; Lithuania; Lebanon; Netherlands; Poland; Russia; Slovakia;
* Sweden; Switzerland; Uruguay; Vatican City; Venezuela
I hope you will join with me and others to file a class action against Turkey in the International Court demand justice.
Papken Hartunian
P.S. Obama will not use "genocide" word in his first address to Armenian Nation.
I'm looking forward to being there.
I live inBoston but my heart and thoughts will be with all of you today in L.A. Good luck and be safe.
I wish I had been there. It must have been an outstanding event.
Thank you for standing up. May God bless you.
The fire burns brightly in this one! Props, Lalai. And props to the ANCA for its solid, tireless work--too bad the ANCC and the Canadian Armenian Congress can't get their acts together.
I often say that Hope is what pulls us all back from the edge of insanity. But I also have a prediction based on colourfully-rendered facts:
Year one of the Obama "change" era: Well-meaning presidential candidate and former community organizer (important!) makes moving and intelligent speech recognizing the tremendous suffering of Armenians in 1915 and justly defining it as "genocide." Armenians in the Diaspora, who've been toiling away in search of justice--young and old, man and woman, alone or as a collective--for over 40 years, rejoice at his solemn promise that under his administration, history will not play second fiddle to realpolitik and that the Armenian genocide will be rightly recognized as such, thus perhaps precipitating a dramatic change 94 years in the making.
Fast forward to current day, DC. Well-meaning "Change" President, having surrounded himself with the same shining beacons of integrity and human compassion as "No at the last minute" Clinton, is advised to muddle his previously clear and astonishingly astute position--realpolitik oblige. Turkey, ally in the "War of Error" but forever flirting with its extremist right wing fringe, makes the same old tired and contrived gestures to dissuade the President. Well-meaning "Change" President, given the opportunity to address the Turkish Parliament ("and yea, he would speak unto the world from a capital of Islam in the first one hundred days of his time") with a boatload of international goodwill keeping him buoyed, massages his message, doesn't utter the bloody word, caves in and changes nothing. Epic fail, to borrow a meme. Bush "the Uniter" had pulled the same schtick in more or less the same fashion, minus all the intelligence.
Year two, three and four of the Obama era: Re-enactement? Or brand new script? Tune in, folks, and hold your breath, but don't be surprised if you get blue in the face (or even see red)!
Look, I know there was a genocide, but I really hope Obama doesn't use the word genocide. I am working at the US Embassy in Ankara, Turkey, and if Obama uses that word, lord knows the amount of anti american protests that will be going on in this city. I don't know how safe it will be for me to be here, and since I am not an ambassador or diplomat, it's not like I can just leave the country on short notice. If he does use the word, I hope the protests aren't violent or they start targeting americans. Because I'll be damned if I get hurt because of what Obama says.
Donaghue has more principles in his little finger than the president of Armenia has in his entire body.
Everyone talks of Obama failing to use the term Genocide when speaking on the Armenian Genocide memorial day, but I see it as something that the Armenians should stop stressing over. Is Armenian Genocide any less of a fact, if a president of US fails to call it such. I agree that it is very good if the Turkish government is put under pressure to acknowledge the historical fact of the systemic annihilation of 1.5 million Armenians, but what we must start doing is not hanging on to words of presidents, but to develop mass informational campaigns, to inform the masses at large. Obama is the same man, who repeatedly stated his strong stance on Armenian Genocide recognition, but he is also the president of a country, which is trying to bring it's troops back home safely. And since Turkey is a means to an end, until US is done needing the Turks, the question of Armenian Genocide may not surface in the front lines of political agenda.
At this moment in history, it is more important for the US to stop the wars in the middle East and start developing healthy relations with Russia, so that there is no more need for the Turks as allies. Only then, will the Turks have to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Until then, we must remember that political speeches made by US government officials are nothing more than carefully calculated presentations of the US interests, before being just.
Obama's allusion to the Mets Yeghern is only understood by the Armenians who call the Great Genocide thus. In Armenian, Yeghern is Genocide, and by using the words Mets Yeghern Obama did use the Armenian version of the term. Let's hope that we are able to look beyond the speech today and will create more opportunities for the US population to know more about the fact of Armenian Genocide.
i am from ethiopia as ethiopian we have connection with aremenia long long orthodox relation as an ethiopian to say about the genocide of orthodox armenian must be recogenize by whole world obama should recognize that and the turky government should pay the penality . i know the truth comes out soon . GOD bless Armenian and Ethiopia .
Well said Khatchig
To my fellow Armenians who are disappointed in the President's failure to make good on his campaign promise by recognizing the Genocide as such, I ask you... why are you so surprised? You have put too much faith in a man who has repeatedly proven that he cannot be taken at his word. He has barely been in office 100 days, and has already broken many of his promises. He promised to end earmarks, and then signed a budget that contained over 3,000 of them. Did you really think he cares about you? If so, why? What is it based on? A promise? The fact that there is irrefutable truth that the Genocide took place, and that 1.5M of our ancestors were snuffed out? Means nothing to him. He used you - you served your purpose, you helped get him elected. Now he has bigger and better things to contend with. Just another empty suit who makes promises he has no intention of keeping. I am waiting for a President who won't even make this promise to us during the campaign, who will actually do the right thing anyway simply because it is the right thing. That will be who I vote for. The President now joins a long line of his predecessors who also reneged on their promises to us. I am not surprised in the least. I did not vote for this man because I saw him for the fraud that he is. So I am sorry that you are all so disappointed. Please remember this snub in the future, and in the meantime keep on fighting the good fight and keep applying the pressure. That is the best way to honor our ancestors to keep their memory alive and to ensure that the world will know that they did not die in vain, that we are still here, that we are still the Armenian people. When the time comes, all of these lying politicians will be held to account.
It was obvious from the beginning that this opportunist "Macchiavelist" is another imperialists like others. They are after Armenian-American's vote, and as soon as they get that "Business as Usual". They have to appease "The only Democracies???!!!" in the region; namely Turkey and Israel. However, I hope this time it will be a wake up call for Armenian-Americans not to be fooled by these opportunists!
Obama showed his cowardice merely 24 hours after he made the following statements.
"Obama: Holocaust’s lesson is not to be silent
April 23, 2009
WASHINGTON (JTA) -- The lesson of the Holocaust is never to be silent in the face of inhumanity, President Obama said.
"How do we ensure that 'Never Again' isn't an empty slogan, or merely an aspiration, but also a call to action?" the president asked while speaking Thursday in the Capitol Rotunda at a commemoration organized by the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. "I believe we start by doing what we are doing today -- by bearing witness, by fighting the silence that is evil's greatest co-conspirator."
....
"The hope of a chosen people who have overcome oppression since the days of Exodus; of the nation of Israel rising from the destruction of the Holocaust; of the strong and enduring bonds between our nations," Obama said."
http://jta.org/news/article/2009/04/23/1004610/obama-holocausts-lesson-is-not-to-stand-by
I feel President Obama is compelled to think first and foremost of the national security of our nation and not focus on pleasing a minority of individuals or recognize a period of history for the sake of pleasing the outspoken. Heck, every year the Armenian expats, around the world, attempt to convince nations that truly have no interest in their plight about an alleged genocide. Let's think about the present and ask what if anything the expats have done to improve the conditions and status of Armenia itself...probably as much as the average African American's efforts to improve Africa. It is what it is, Turkey will never condone the acts as genocide nor will the United States so get over it!
There are 2 points I want to add here. First one for Atilla and the second for the author.
1- I personally know more than 300 of the people who signed the petition; and I know the names of almost 300 intellectuals who have their names on the site ozurdiliyoruz.com. And I am not exaggerating. They are "Turks" of acceptable "Turkishness" Atilla would find satisfactory. I will not even 'try' to show the irrationality in the paranoia about Armenians signing the petition. So, ask yourself this: Is "30000 apologies" really that scary? Can the Turkish State/citizen not even accept that many counter arguments inside itself? It's self-ridicule, nothing else. I guess that is the power of this petition. It ridicules, in not ridiculing Turkey.
On the other hand, The Armenian Diaspora's successes, failures, problems or stance on the politics over the Meds Yeghern are irrelevant to facing history. Accepting a shame is one thing and discussing the blame is another.
2-I myself have signed this petition. Not because I think it is totally the right thing to do, but because it was the best of what could be done given the conditions. I am certainly not stopping here, and am working in every way I can, against the shame I'm living in. There are "other" Turks like me here in Turkey and being outnumbered does not mean being outpowered. But I have to inform the readers of this page about one detail in the apology. The article 301 of the Turkish law is quite extensive and the usage of the word "genocide" when talking about an Armenian or Greek or Kurdish genocide is directly a crime against the State. Therefore, the petition also has the characteristic of twisting language in order to
a- remain immune to law to some extent, to be able reach/demonstrate a certain number (Believe me, there are thousands who did not sign the petition in fear of the article 301);
b- scandalize the very language imposed on us.
Is this the politician Jim Keller? Please write back -- and hold the vitriol.
Mr keller, you are a selfish person , I wish your family would have gonr through what the Armenian people have gonr through and that is when you would talk about "National Security" You are cowered, and do not have self respect as you do whatever the turkish governement tells you to do , shame on you .
First and foremost, Obama is President of the USA, his highest priority is our national interest.
It seems to me that using the phrase "meds yeghern" twice in his address seemed a smart way to underscore his position without adversely impacting USA-Turkey relationship and not scuttling the nascent dialogue between Armenia and Turkey. The President's use of this Armenian term has not been missed by Turkey or the Turkish Press.
There seems to be a lot less concern about President Obama's statement in Armenia than among those living comfortably elsewhere. Armenia seems to have a more pragmatic mindset that is focussed on the welfare of Armenians living today. Similar to President Obama, Armenian's national leaders should be acting to strengthen the security and economy of their country. Their dialogue with Turkey is one step in the right direction.
Could President Obama have chosen a more insulting statement in remembrance of the Armenian Genocide. I found it insulting that he weasled out of using the word Genocide by using the Armenian language, "Meds Yeghern"to refer to the Genocide-a language that the Turks tried to eradicate along with the Armenian people. It does not belong in a statement in order to avoid using the proper name, "Genocide" that he promised to use. Further more, his audacity is misplaced in directing Armenians in what he thinks THEY should do-to address the facts of the past as a part of their efforts to move forward(that requires Turkey to address the facts of the Genocide-the Armenians have already done that). The Turks have not "in a way that is HONEST, open and constructive."
Working under Swiss auspices sounds good; however,trust is an issue for Armenians. We have not forgotten the betrayal of the Great Powers when they ignored the Sevres Treaty and replaced it with the Lausanne Treaty which did not even have the word Armenia in it and ultimately gave Turkey permission to continue its shameful treatment of Armenians. We also have not forgotten Turkey's genius in manipulating the truth (lying). What exactly is meant by our " common history"?--the Genocide?
President Obama claims that his interest remains the achievement of a full, frank, and just acknowledgment of the facts. He did not even take the first basic, frank fact that he promised--naming the Genocide for what it was. Can he tell us one fact about what Turkey, the great human rights violator, has done to show it is a worthy of respect by the U.S.
This comment is from a person who HAD the highest respect and admiration for Obama. How painful it is for me to lose that.
Dare I hope that Obama will restate his acknowledgment properly?
From Shahkeh, a disappointed daughter of survivors of the Genocide.
I have to say, Turks and Armenians has to let go of this unknown teritories. I am sorry but it is a big shamble to blame a nation whom had a war against their own ancestors.. you (armenians) can not and should not ask the Turks for what the Ottomans done. If Turekey went into Armenia and started making Armenian teritory theirs , what would the Armenians do.... Probably they would defend......YES... The Word is DEFEND...
All the Armenian 3rd generation, is it worth that all your people will suffer now, for a conflict which was hundreds of years ago....
Just telling you think about the living more than respecting the past, because living is the one feeling the pain.
Every country had a war , do you agree, ? France, Italy, Greece, Egypt you name it all these great nations expanded and tried to keep the borders intact... sooooooooooo if you protect your borders is a problem than why do you invade Azerbaijan?????? In the region Armenia is the only country to have their bor5ders closed more than 1 country...
With this attitude, you will never achieve anything, even the Armenian Patriots try, because it is a road without any means for living,...
Again , the real question is why cant you let it go, When the Ottoman Empire was splitting ,,,,,as every Master nation, they tried to hold on to their territories.. I do not believe it was against the Armenians or Greeks, or Egyptians, Or Serbs, or Albanians, or etccccccc..... they just wanted to hold onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...
anyway do not make these people in the states to make you believe , that they are doing this for you or The Armenians... They are doing this so they can get the Money , the american dream, and with your support you are giving them what they want.. Never forget about your past, but make sure noone tricks you that you go back in time, in our time...
c'mon
Dear Micheal Elliot, why this much anger for a President that has been in power almost 100 days.... What did Armenian Presidents have ever done for Amenians in Armenia... Not the ones who are pretending to protect armenia but making it go worse by worse every day... I believe Micheal you are one of them who fires up a situation when there is none.... You should be ashamed for talking bad about a President newly elected, and if you are That Armenian why dont you try to help The Mainland Armenia... The GDP is the lowest in the region, so instead of words maybe, actionnnn , huh? and supplying money food education,, our region doesnt need any hatred preachers like you. Just get a job and start blaming yourself , do not blame anyone else...
Micheal as an Armenian, when were you in the mainland, it is easy to talk when you are there.. Man, i bet you really believe what you talk or write or your own reflection on the mirror...
Good luck, mate
Congratulations to people having the courage to face truth despite the position of their state. Question to all readers : how do you know if what you are educated to is true or false ? US were taught about terrible communists while USSR was educated to hate capitalists ... how could an american or russian know if this education was based on true facts ? How could it all now vanish (nobody in the States or USSR would bring such positions now ...) ... To all Turkish people against the idea that their ancestors may have done this, knowing from their education they are right, how can you take position without really going to see genocide museums and all the facts that made it so that so many neutral countries recognized this, knowing the ones that did not recognize did not because Turkey is a priviledged partner ... Please - before reacting negatively to this - try to accept that what you know in Turkey about this genocide is only from your education, and that all could have been done to make you think the way the state wants ... like USSR and US at the time ...
Give back Armenians their dignity by recognizing the past ... no solution can be found if problem is not identified .., don't let them stare at Ararat, historical site of Armenia, and Ani, their former capital, behind your border ... give them back this little territory, like Germans once did ...
"Turkey never makes a move that does not benefit its national interests" ... whereas many Armenians, when you read history, made lot of moves against their national interests, but for their personal interests ... May Armenia not be betrayed once again by her children ...
Congrats Khatghig and George - very well stated. Whether you're a Democrat, Republican, or independent, if you don't understand by now that this president cares not one whit for our sacred cause, you're either a misguided apologist or blind to reality. My great-grandparents and their families were martyrs for our faith and our people. Can't we, at a minimum, rise up to this outrage, if not for ourselves then for them? Take 15 minutes - I promise, that's all - and place a phone call, send a PERSONALIZED email, or mail a letter. Don't worry about sounding like Shakespeare or a Sunday morning news show: be angry, emotional, passionate. Tell this president, or your Congressman or Senator, exactly how this makes you feel. Let's take a page from the "playbooks" of other ethnic groups and finally make our voices heard, from beyond the Beltway. I realize it's not our style, and we're so busy with kids, jobs, bills, taxes, and doing the right thing by our families that we hardly have time for this. But we need to make time, or get used to more abuse like this. Those of us who supported this gentleman were just abused and absolutely humiliated, and it took only 5 months to forget us. Let's make sure that never happens again.
At a time that the U.S. is debating whether to go ahead with its anti-missile system in Europe against Russia under a
hypothetical threat from Iran, and the U.S. and other Nato forces are holding military exercises in Georgia, it seems to me
that Armenia is coaxed into this friendship by Turkey probably at the behest of the U.S. The re-emergence of Russia as a power to be reckon with, and the recent Chinese display of modernization of its army and navy, has signified the need for the U.S. to establish a friendly countries corridor in Asia against Russian and Chinese expansion of influence.
Does Armenia want to be part of that game? Georgia and Ukraine thought before that being part of that game will
make them secure from Russia, rich and prosperous. These countries are in shambles now, and the worst is yet to come.
Turkey is on the game to lure Armenia into the Western geopolitical strategy in Central Asia in return of U.S. help to
Turkey's admission into the European Union. At the same time, Turkey can wash out the Armenian Genocide of 1915
with euphemisms such as "millions of Turks died too", and come on top of the Armenian Genocide as a victim too! And that will be the ultimate insult to the 1.5 Armenian genocide victims, and an insult to the history of the Armenian nation.
Turkey wants to use its friendship with Armenia not only as a Trojan Horse to enter the European Union, but also expects a friendly Armenia to cooperate with Turkey on military intelligence against the Kurdish guerrillas. And the U.S. will be part of that military intelligence network against Iran. And once Armenia has become part of that U.S./Turkey network, and once it has alienated Russia and has nowhere else to go, Armenian interests in Nagorno Karabagh will be sold out to Azerbaijan to
keep it in the Western alliance as well. That is how the U.S. deceived the late legendary Kurdish guerrilla leader Mustafa Barzani, and brought him to the U.S. to live in Washington under a CIA pension until his death, and it is still unknown if that
was voluntary or against his will. And of course the de-population of Kurds from southeastern Turkey continues, as is the bombing of the Kurdish villages in Eastern Turkey and northern Iraq with the consent of the U.S.
Does Armenia want to be an errand boy of the U.S. and Turkey in the game of the geopolitical interests in the region? I am sure Armenia will be offered sweetening deals to become part of the U.S./Turkey fold, but, if it does, it will become so dependent in the long run that it will find itself subservient and unable to disengage. A look at the collapsing economies of
Georgia and Ukraine may provide a glimpse of what Armenia may look like some day down the road. And once that road is taken, as Georgia and Ukraine have found out, there may be no easy return.
I am sure there are different opinions in Armenia about what is best for the country, and what the country's best interests are.
But the motto: "history repeat itself", because those who do not know history repeat the mistakes of the past, carries a lot of weight for Armenia. Armenia shall not sweep its history under the rug for expediency. And that is why Iran wisely doesn't
want to jump into the U.S. offer for better U.S/Iranian relations. Because it doesn't want to sweep its past history of full U.S. control of the country under the rug, to make sure that it is not repeated again. Global hegemonism is like a spider web. The smaller counties trapped in are usually the victims. And as the proverb says: "Be careful what you want. You may get it!" Nikos Retsos, retired professor
I am very touched by these commemoration in Turkey. A lot of Armenians died, but the truth will never die.
This is a tough one. I am still glad Obama is president instead of McCain (would you rather be at war with Iran right now?). However, I am sickened by this turn of events. I started to become ill as soon as the trip to Turkey was announced (actually, it was the day he named Rahm Emanuel Chief of Staff). Even before he made it to Turkey, the president of T and his old lady were up Obama's and Michelle's respective arses in all the photos at the G-20. Next came all the French kissing in Turkey. But the greatest insult of all was his use of the words "Medz Yeghern." Whose brilliant idea was that? Did they really think we would be fooled by that?
I did not support Obama because of his promise to the Armenians. I supported him because I felt (and still do) that he is brilliant and was the best man for the job. But, I will NEVER, EVER vote again in my life and am planning to join Reverend Wright's church. Reverend Wright was Right all along: not God bless America; God da_n America.
Gee Justin, worried about an innocent person being harmed by turks for no good reason? Imagine how Armenians mothers felt witnessing the brutal deaths of their innocent babes before being dispatched themselves. I assume you are safe. Oh well.
I am an Armenian,born in Yerevan raised in the US. I must say that I have complete respect for every Turkish person that does their own research on the Armenian Genocide, and forms his own judgment on what really happened and not what their government told them what happened.And I must say, alot of Turks know the truth,but their pride will not allow them to accept the truth. Pride and dignity is accepting the truth and making mends, not denying it and giving the world the image that Turks are liers. I really wouldn't feel proud being called a lier. The facts are out there do your own research, learn the truth. I did my own research even after my grandma told me that her dad died in the hands of Turks. I wanted to research both sides before I formed a judgment. And now I am convinced by my own research that there was an Armenian Genocide. Its really ok to say sorry, but to deny the truth is like condoning what your ancestors did.
Dear Matthew,
What unknown territories are you talking about? In this issue there are no unknown territories, everything has been documented in volumes.
Please do not talk or write about a subject that you obviously have very little information about. God forbid if everyone brain worked like yours when the next catastrophe will happen. You probably think Hitler was only protecting his country as well!!
Name calling shows lack of intelligence or conversely lack of intelligent things to say. In this case, since it seems that you have above average intelligence, at lease you can spell Armenia and perhaps point out the location on a map, my suggestion is for you to go forward and Read….Read…. Read, not only on Armenia but about our country, the United States of America and realize what it stands for.
Nobody wants to see people getting hurt or anti American protests in Ankara. But the truth will come out, and sometimes it hurts. If I were accepting a position in an embassy, I would have calculated that some political risk is an inherent part of the job description.
what the hell is the matter with you people, i am an american born Armenian that speaks the language VERY fluently. as well as the enemies' language fluently. my father and mother and my grandparents are rolling in their graves.i am very angry that the armenian community does not know how to fight the real fight. isn't there an ARMY in the homeland.and how come the PHD.s and the rest of the socalled "ARMENIAN PROFESSORS", educating these people in america about the ways that the turks manipulate. and why isn't there anyone in the armenian diaspora putting out news releases about the likes of ex:politician dick gebhardt who receives over 125,000 a month to lobby washington to forget/block the recognition of the genocide. and the likes of german run, duetsche bank holding 2 trillion of armenian money from the genocide in its coffers. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH IN TODAYS MONEY THE 2 TRILLION IS WORTH IN TODAYS MONEY......come on people lets get on the ball.i am the youngest of 7 children, the first 4 were born there, the last 3 were born here. i am 53 yrs.old do i have to die when i am 88yrs. old like my dad, and this still not recognized..................sincerly ticked off, christapor keorkunian
Ayse Gunaysu is an pro Armenian and sympathiser in the cause. Anything she writes should not be treated as trustworthy. The article is highly unlikely to be true...
I have a friend who grew up in Istanbul living in Yesilkoy, which is predominantly Armenian. He is a Turk. He went to school with Armenian kids, attended university with them, and some of these Armenian students went on to perform their military service. One is a dentist and even displays the Turkish flag and a foto of himself in his reception are of his dentist. They still catch up. One of his friends now resides in the US, and every couple of years, returns to Istanbul to visit. They meet and my friend collects the rent (in cash) from his tennant and gives it to him each visit (in cash)...
This is the trust they have in one another...
I am one person who spent the a considerable time in Turkey, and studied high school and Lise in Izmir, Turkey. I had friends of all sorts. Kurdish, Jewish etc. I travelled alot in Turkey over the years and prettymuch went everywhere.
Turks do not preach hatred of Armenians, (Can you say the same for yourselves?)I myself did not find out about the so called "Genocide" until 2002 when I came across some silly website. To be honest, I beleived it at first, then knowing my own countrymen, our history etc I started to do some research. Without being biassed I have learned what I have learned and am quite comfortable about it. It was a tragedy, yes, it was a dark terrible time in Anatolia... Armenians wanted their own lands and were tricked by Russians.. I can understand this and why you did what you did...
Why wont you open your archives for the historians to research? The Turkish government for decades have been inviting historians and scholars to investigate the archives of all those countries involved, Russia, Armenia, France, US and England. Recep Tayip Erdogan just in his comments on the Obama speach yesterday said "I have written a letter to the prime minister of Armenia in 2005 asking him to open his archives so a joint investigation can occur. The results should to to the international courts.... And Turkey is willing to accept its history, just show us unconditional, categorical, decisive truth in recorded (undocted) documents. Remember you are talking about rewriting history and the history of peoples who have been around as long as history itself.
By the way, Prime Minister Erdogan is yet to receive a reply. What is it Armenia is hiding???
Read the below// (Because you all speak and write Turkish fluently)
You can review this link :
http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=11515890&tarih=2009-04-26
"MEKTUBUMA CEVAP ALAMADIM"
- Ancak gösterdiğimiz bu hassasiyetin iyi algılanmadığını da zaman zaman görüyoruz. 1915 olaylarıyla ilgli önceki gün yapılan açıklamaları gerçeği yansıtmayan bir tarih yorumu olarak görüyorum. Açıklama metninin olayların bir bölümünün kaleme alındığını görüyorum. Tarihe ve tarih bilimcilerine bırakılması gereken böyle bir uzmanlık konusunun sürekli olarak kullanılması, her yıl lobilerin istismar meselesi haline getirilmesi, ülkeler arasındaki ilişkilerin normalleşmesini engelliyor.
- Türkiye olarak tarihçiler tarafından incelenmesi için her zaman samimi bir gayret içerisinde olduk. 2005'te bizzat yazdığım mektupla bu mektubun da cevabını almış değilim. İyi niyetli önerilerimiz karşılık bulmadık.
Matthew,
From the sound of your post, it appears that you are completely unfamiliar with historical facts. Much of turkish territory came about because of the annihilation of the Armenian people through acts of genocide. Till this day, there are Armenian churches that were built in the early years of Christianity that are located all throughout turkey. These lands once belonged to Armenia. Today the turks have destroyed many of these churches and have converted some of the nicer ones into mosque's, yes mosque's! If you walk into those mosque, you can clearly see the Armenian writings on the walls, etched and carved into the stones. As Armenia was the world's first country to accept Christianity as its national religion, these church's date back to 1600's and even before. Food for thought....
Thank you my dear Ragip. I have received your e-mails about this historic event organised by you and the Istanbul Shubasi of Insan Haklari. As before, once again I salute your (and Istanbul Human Rights Branch members’ and activists’ - Ayse Gunaysu and Ereen Keskin amongst others) courage, deepest decency, integrity, humanity and principled friendship.
I was moved to read your email announcements about this event but really touched and moved to tears reading this account (above) and imagining the poetry of Siamanto, Varoujan... and the music of Vartapet Komitas being performed in Turkish on such a day in such a venue (where it all started!) by such people... .
It makes me sick that our authorities in Yerevan are presenting their negotiations with the Nazis in Ankara in the context of De Gaul-Adenauer negotiations in post-war Europe, therefore dignifying the deeply undemocratic and aggressive regime in Ankara with respect which it clearly does not possess or deserve and perpetrating the fallacy/deceptive self fantasy (deliberately cultivated once again by Europe and the US) that the two parties (aggressive Genocide perpetrator/denier Turkey and weak little Genocide victim Armenia) are equals!!!
Long Live the Struggle for true democracy in Turkey
Down with the militarist/aggressive Nazi regime in Ankara
Best,
Bernard
I haven't been able to find any information as to Russia's feelings on this new arrangement. I cannot believe Armenia would do anything to alienate its protector by angering them. It just may be that Russia has extended its silent blessing to this new arrangement since Russia has been openly pursuing trade contacts with Turkey.
I must say that the diaspora has to resolve itself to the fact that this matter rests solely with the citizens of Armenia. It would be unwise to meddle in Armenia's internal affairs.
And let's face it. Turkey has been able to push Armenia around due to the fact the the Turkish coalition of countries exist. Armenia cannot deal with this problem by letting another generation of Armenians isolate itself. The Armenians can hold their own with anybody.
To Mathew:
"If Turekey went into Armenia and started making Armenian teritory theirs , what would the Armenians do…. Probably they would defend……YES… The Word is DEFEND".........…
You have it backwards. It is the Turks who have been occupying others for hundreds of years. That is exactly what Turks have done their whole history. Invade. Raped. Kill. Torture. Discriminate. Ask anyone living under Turkish rule from Africans to Europeans to the Middle East. Ask the Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians, anyone at all living under Turkish rule if the Turkish rule days were good or some of their worst times in history. Not one will say living under Turks was good. Not one! The truth is that The Armenians , Greeks & Assyrians were the only non Turks left under Turkish control at the time of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Turks lost 62% within a few short years and the Young Turks horrible ruling party decided upon GENOCIDE and carried it out. Turks today have recreated history to avoid the justice long overdue. Please read a history book outside of Turkey.
This won't end Turk. NEVER!
Dear Sir, I wonder how turkish government could put in exile armenian women and innocent children ,without planning for their food and means of transportation. So making it obvious that the plan was killing them and not
sending them away from turkey. This makes it Genocide,no need for anyone to pronounce it so.
Husband of my aunt was a 5 years old boy then,following mothe with few more.he saw dunkeys loaded with watermelons several times and people dying with thirst couldn't get near those caravans of watermelon.
If you are truly interested in finding out exactly what happened you need to do a little unbiased research about it yourself. Armenia as a nation is a troubled one. They have been used and manipulated throughout the history by western nations and Russia. Most Armenians have a little in common and this makes it very difficult to unite and accomplish peace within their borders. They do NOT agree on any of the important issues that can better their future, but the only issue that unites the majority is their hatred towards TURKS and the Armenian leaders and the politicians know that and they use that extensively to their own personal benefits. Growing up in Turkey the most will tell you that they have no issues or hatred towards Armenia or Armenians, most are not even aware of the way Armenians feel about them. This will eventually change and more and more people will eventually find out about it if Armenians continue with their attitude towards Turkey and Turkish people. By doing that you are NOT accomplishing anything, but hurting yourselves and your country. Why involve International Community, spend all that money all over the world instead of feeding your people. How do you thing you are going to benefit, if this so called genocide gets recognized internationally. Everybody in the area put their past behind and investing in their futures including Azerbaijan, but because of this hatred Armenia is being left behind in a land lock position, being manipulated and used by Russia again. Armenians WAKE UP! Russia is not your friend or solution to your problems. Stop being used and manipulated by Russia for their National interest.
Because of Armenian attitude towards Turks, find out what they have done to people Azerbaijan recently, many mass graves of men, women and kids to prove that. Now explain, why would a nation who believes that they have been subject to a genocide would subject the others to a genocide like this. The fact remains that Armenia have betrayed, back stabbed and deceived Turks after 600 years of great relationship by joining Russian Forces and attacking Turks. They have burned the villages down and killed the Turks and the Muslims in the area without discriminating men, women and kids which nobody talks about. This 600 years with Turks were Armenia's golden years in history if you take your time and study their history you will see that. Do you really think that after all these years Turks woke up one morning and said lets kill all the Armenians today, does this really make sense???
Here is the truth on so called Armenian Genocide!!!
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html
I don't think any use in defending the Turks here in an Armenian biased online publication. Talking about truth, but truth cannot be farther than you state here on your essay. If the governing leaders did not have the obligation to justify the sacrifices for the greater good of a nation where would we all be today. You must understand it is not a perfect world we live in. To your example there are over two dozen examples within the last 50 years, and a few present events in progress. One has to ask why the US killings of 20,000 innocent civilians in Iraq recently, Armenian killings of 60,000 people of Azerbaijan in early 90's doesn't constitute to a genocide. How about Rwanda, Morocco, Darfur etc. What about all the Turks who were slained by the Armenians and Greeks, and yet how about the assassination of Turkish Officials, their wives and kids by the Armenian Terrorists in 38 cities and 21 countries worldwide, and how about 40,000 Turks who got killed by the Kurds last 25 years. At one point I really did feel for the people of Armenia and there is nothing wrong with you trying to get recognition for so-called genocide, but the deceptive, back stabbing way you people are doing it really started to work against you. This look at me, please pity me and, help me attitude, trying to get unrelated third fourth and fifth parties involved is not working. So stop wasting your countries tax dollars and start feeding your people. One has to ask, Why would Turkey would be the only country to acknowledge and face their past. Who is out there setting an example?
Why don't you just crawl back under your Turkish stone--the one in Mongolia.
Don't you have anything better to do than spread your manure at an Armenian site?
By the way, my comment was intended for OCDevin.
Reply 
Why it took them so long ?
Can our Turkish fiends Aslan Bey and OCDevin please take their heads out of the deep sand that they are buried in and answer this one question: If all the propaganda that you are repeating parrot style is true then WHERE ARE THE 2.5 MILLION ARMENIANS WHO HAD LIVED ON THEIR "ARMANI AYALATI" FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS NOW? And even if you actually believe your government propaganda and, as you say, the Armenians did revolt and side with the Russians, etc. etc. why were the entire population (2.5 million or as your government propaganda says 600,000!) deported/destroyed/killed?
as for Erdoghan's letter to Armenia's President in 2005 it was answered same week. the Armenian government has used many international diplomatic opportunities to repeat that answer publicly but since the Turkish government does not like the answer it was given it lies about not having received a relpy; see here http://www.armeniaforeignministry.com/news/inthenews/050517_t_markarian.html
and here
www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25124 - 37k
and here
www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25124 - 37k
This is a long overdue interview. But where is the urgent call to action? Our organizations must mobilize the people in the homeland and diaspora NOW to protest to not only the US and Turkish governments, but en masse and in person to the Armenian Parliament and Armenian embassies around the world!
Mr. haroutunian, I understand you don't like to hear opinion of others, I feel for you and your loss, least you could do is show me the same sympathy. A human life and a mind is a terrible think to waste, regardless of race, religion, Turk or Armenian. It must not happen, in any place or time, but why is it difficult for you to accept both Turks and Armenians slained at the collapse of the Empire.
Mr. Nazarian, I am sure you do truly believe the information about 2.5 Million Armenians being in the area, but I assure you it is an impossibility for that area to have a population of that size at the time. If there were 2.5 million Armenians in the area constituting lets say 20% of the population you are saying the area had 10 million people. Does it make sense for such a remote area having that kind of population.
The borders are opening, and the both sides have agreed to study the events and the truth is about the come out, we all have waited long time and I have no problem waiting a little longer. You will see, both the Armenians and the Turks will overcome this challenge regardless of the results within our time and we will have to learn how to live together, our ancestors managed it for over a thousand year why can't we. Many Turks died at the same time, the Ottoman Empire collapsed into pretty much nothing, those responsible were charged and arrested, I don't understand what else Armenians could ask for. Again like your family you don't get to choose your neighbors. Most Turks have forgiving you for the betrayal during that time, also forgiven you for the killings of Turkish officials, their wives and children in 38 cities and 21 Countries why can't you.
I applaud the ARF for taking this important step. Without it, the government could have continued on believing that they were righteous in their actions.
That notwithstanding, the ARF, as a party in the coalition, was in a position to make much more noise than it did throughout the events of the past few months. I recognize that it made statements that in regard to the invitation of Gul, to the "secret talks", etc. but recently, they only threatened to leave the coalition if the mayoral elections were not up to international standards: not if Armenia suddenly opened the border with Turkey and not if the Armenian government didn't support Genocide recognition by its diasporans.
Also, nobody within the coalition has questioned what the government has actually been doing these past months as a part of their secret talks. This may be because they agree with the approach of the Sarkissian government or because they were not willing to voice their disagreement publicly. Neither of these reasons is good enough. The ARF has worked hard since being reallowed into the country to advance democratic objectives, this more than any other political party within Armenia. It has been disappointing to see that there was no vocal and, most importantly, resounding, opposition to these secret talks - that ultimately resulted in a plan being bestowed upon Armenia and its citizens - until it was too late. There were no demands that the details be made public and the details still aren't fully public.
I think if the ARF rediscovers itself and asserts itself as it should, the Armenian people, in Armenia and abroad, will begin to appreciate it as a voice of those who have none.
Harry: do you wonder why Armenians haven't been able to achieve many of their objectives? We have been protesting about everything from the Genocide to Artsakh for decades. It's easy to go out on a street, walk, and chant for a few hours.
Do you have a congressman/woman? Call them and tell them you'd like to meet with them in Washington. Ask your family and friends to do the same. The organizations are always working but they cannot do everything. They will be able to help the Armenians who take the initiative themselves but the responsibility is not theirs - it is every Armenian's.
To OC Devin and all Turks - you believe what you believe to be true about the Armenina Genocide because your government has educated you so. They have re-written historical facts, re-written history books, destroyed whatever archives they could get their hands on in order to cover this sad and dark history of the Ottoman Turks. They made sure there was not one single piece of evidence in the entire country to show otherwise. Sit back and think - everything you know about the Armenian Genocide is what you have read and studied in your country, what your government told you to be "true" is this not so? Even your parents were so taught. How would you know anything otherwise if you do not do the research yourself! Armenians did not sit down one day and make all of this up. How absurd. This is a government conspiracy against all of it's Turkish citizens. These killings and murders perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks and their Kurdish "friends" at the time, against the entire Armenian population of Historical Eastern Anatolia in every Vilayet were documented by non-Armenian missionaries and ambassadors living and witnessing the fisrt Genocide of the Twentieth Century - right then and there.
It's done! Now, not you, but your government needs to fess up.
I am curious, do any of your history books document the order from Constantinople from Talaat Pasha directing all Vilayets in how they were to execute this order and how they were to "exterminate" the Armeninas? This original document exists.
Dear Harut,
I enjoy your passionate and eloquent writing. This was truly a very fitting response to this President who so much so evoked the passions of the Armenian American elctorate. Many felt THIS WAS THE TIME. Not me, Harut. I did not expect it, but hoped it would happen. I did not vote for Mr. Obama because I did not think he was right for America. I vote as a citizen of America. I believe in the America of the Founders, not in the America of the Left. I am 100% proud of the Armenian blood that coarses through my veins and all aspects of my Armenian heritage and I work for the Armenian Cause in my own little way. May God help us all.
Having read Mr/Mrs OCDevin's last extremely patronising and ostrich style posting where he completely fails to answer my simple questions and instead goes on aggressive and automatic Turkish official history or parrot/ostrich mode, with his head buried deep in the sand, (i.e the Armenians were "good people" for 500 years of Ottoman Empire but when they suddenly decided to be "bad people...traitors...gaurs.." and sided with the Russians... etc. etc., instead of continuing to be like obedient sheep, we Turks had to 'deport' them to the desert, etc. etc. the usual kindergartenor official 'history' that most Turks are taught in their Kemalist schools which no one else in the world agrees or accepts) I have to agree with Mr Harutunian's posting and say that it is pointless to try and reason with these guys in the same way that it would have been pointless to have tried to educate and enlighten any Germans away from racist nationalst thinking and resoning without the complete destruction of the Nazi state by the Allies and complete de-Nazification of German state, education and society at large. This task is simply too great to be accomplished through this sort of web-reasoning by individuals. Mr OCDevin and millions of others who 'think' and 'reason' like him are proof that Turkish society as a whole is sick to the point that it is incapable of reforming itself with civilised, democratic-liberal values. These values must be imposed on it from outside, just like it was in the case of Germany and Japan - note what happens to people like Hrant Dink and Orhan Pamuk and thousands of other enlightened people who do not accept the official version of history in Turkey: they get persecuted and prosecuted under article 301 and if that doesn't work they get murdered or forced into exile abroad. And yet a society that is not allowed to freely debate its history and has laws to punish any of its own citizens - including through torture, murder and exile, etc. - who are intelligent enough not to believe the official-kindergarten version of Turkish history but want to find out the truth for themselves through independent research and study, has the cheeck to lecture others and invite Armenia to research into the Genocide!
In this sense it is highly unfair that the Armenians and the Armenian Republic (and to some extent the Assyrians, Greeks/Cypriots) should be shouldering this fight almost single-handedly - a task which is simply above their capacity or capability as they have already been at the receiving end of Ottoman-Turkish subjugation and oppression, and brutal Turkish racist nationalism for so often so long. Europe and the US who have created this nightmarish monster, both through deliberate policy due to self interest as well as sometimes neglect and naivity, have a duty to sort the problem out before it commits firther upheavals/crimes/genocide against Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, etc. Just as importantly, Turkey must be democratised/liberalised/civilised before it can be Europeanised (can be let into Europe/civilised international community) otherwise there is every danger that Europe will be barbarised/Turkified as the latest examples in Davos and the Danish Mohammed cartoons/Rasmussen-Nato shambles clearly demonstrate.
God Bless You, Tom. For almost 50 years you have been entertaining and informative reading for all readers of the Weekly. Eventhough my branch of the Frank Hekimian family lives in Los Angeles, we still eagerly anticipate and read every issue of the Weekly to see how and what our friends and families are doing in eastern Mass. Most of us second and third-generation Armenians can feel what you feel about Armenian issues but only you can write about them and bring light and focus to the warmth and significance of being an Armenian. Have and safe jouney and come back and tell us all about it.
Honest Obama and the Armenian Genocide
If almost hundred-years
Did not define known genocide
Hundred-days of a presidency
How can he define?
Poor president
Who is stoned at every instant
By barbarous ruthless men
Can he redefine even things already defined!?
One slayer can induce terror
In the hearts of million—brave innocent men.
If you can’t remember, take those examples:
Nero*, Hamid, Talat, Anwar, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam,
And now Albasheer and many-many others—
Birthed of immoral-sperms; still ghostful tyrants!
Do you think Barrack is a free man?
Before inauguration
Was a real free human
He spoke the facts, he cleverly analyzed.
And said what he wanted to say
He was not only free
But was a real black bird
On a blossoming tree.
Now caged in the White House
In his unbrooched crown
When he leaves the Oval office
At the last minute, be sure he will sign
Hence after that, he will be free
From the foxes blinding his oversee
Paralyzing his mind with his left writing hand
Not to say, what his inner thoughts wanted frankly to yell.
Liston to what I say, and what past history clichéd;
“Every suppressed spirit, with him silently bends!”
Otherwise, scimitar is shinning its millennial-mirror
To take him away to unknown destiny!
As a Turkish citizen, regardless of my opinion about the issue, I can understand your disappointment due to a broken promise.
It has been a long time since The America of the Founding Fathers has been neglected. For my part, I can barely understand how the American society considers the wars in Middle East and Central Asia as wars against terrorism but not wars of economical and political benefits. It is not a contraversial issue that United States policy has always been determined according to what fits her interests best rather than what is just and unjust.
With Obama as President, I like many Armenian-Americans, thought we had found our champion. When are we going to have leaders who stand for the simple truth? Balakian refused to debate the issue of the Armenian genocide for good reason. There should be no debate, it's time for the government of Turkey to recognize what thinking Turks in civil society have known for awhile. Did anyone see the picture of thousands of Turks in Taksim Square carrying signs saying "We are all Armenians" after the assassination of much-loved Onnik Dink?
Mr. Bernard Nazarian,
Is this your answer to if a genocide took place or not? As always like every other Armenian you have discussed everything including the kitchen sink but the actual subject at hand. You can only dance around it so long, the truth remains there is no actual evidence proving your so-called genocide. Just showing pictures of the dead Armenians to people around the world doesn't prove your people were subject to a genocide. Same for, just because your parents and grand parents told you so, it doesn't mean it really happened. You and your people have lied to west and feed them with this nonsense one-sided story in absence of representation from the other side for way too long. Fortunately for all who are after the actual truth, times are changing and reaching beyond your borders for sharing information and informing others becoming easier day by day. You are no longer able to spread your distorted version of the truth without getting a respond from other party for your baseless allegations. Here are a few more comment and I am going to leave it at that:
Why do you need recognition from Turkey or Turks for your genocide claims. If it really happened and you believe it happened why do you need recognition from anybody at all. Remember and honor your deads and move on like every other nation in the world, yet Armenians constantly seeking for recognition for their genocide claims from every country they live in, Armenians are the only nation who does that, therefore it is safe to assume your people have a hidden agenda behind it you aren't openly discussing it.
Since you are such an expert in Turkey and the Turks and our entire system you so well put it, it is safe for we all to assume that there is no way on earth you could convince Turkey or the Turks to accept your genocide claims, then why even bother trying.
By the way thanks for shedding a light to your distorted version of current Turkey for those who are not aware of it, but again as always this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Nationalism or Kemalism as you put it didn't exist back then, it started with the new republic after 1923 for those who are wondering.
It must be very hard for you to believe but we love our sick country and the nation just the way it is. I am very happy for you that Armenia and Armenians are much better off than Turkey.
For those who really are interested in unbiased debate and information about the Armenian Genocide claims, you can go to a website that is not hosted by Turks nor the Armenians like this one...
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/
OCDevin -- 60,000 in early '90s Azerbaijan? Really? Can I ask where you got that figure from?
Otherwise, there is truth in what you are saying, and I agree that Armenians who often play the victim, are at many times the victimizer. Observe Arpi Haroutounian's insulting comment, for example.
I am finally reading a statement that echos what I've been saying to friends for the past couple of years. I have yet to hear a compelling argument or reason why we should continue with the drive to have a president use the word genocide or have the US congress pass a resolution. It appears we are stuck on the word. What is the end game and is this (clamoring for recognition...) the best way to get there?
Following Mr/Mrs OCDevin's latest post I strongly believe he is not just an ordinary Turkish citizen seeking unbiased knowledge and truth about a the Armenian Genocide but a priest Genocide denial fable factory, a wholy owned subsidiary of the state of Turkey - a paid academic or, in Turkish, maamour or official/policeman/agent perhaps in a low level college or state funded university.
Be it as it may it completely proves the point I was making in my previous posting: i.e there is NO POINT IN TRYING TO REASON WITH THESE GUYS WHO HAVE BEEN FED KINDERGARTEN HISTORY ALL THEIR LIVES AND ARE COMPLETELY BRAIN WASHED or even worse they are like ostricges, the bird that dig their heads deeper and deeper into the sand and think or pretend there is no one or no one can see them not realising that the deeper they dig their head in the sand the more they reveal their bare backside for the world to laugh at - or to be disgusted by as in the case of consistent denial and export of denilism of Genocide by Turksih. I end by suggesting solemly that, UNLESS IT CHANGES ITS ATTITUDE AND COMES TO TERMS WITH ITS OWN HISTORY, Turkey should change its name officially to OSTRICH! So it should become THE REPUBLIC OF OSTRICH instead of Turkey. After all both turkey and ostrich are birds but given the attitude of Mr/Mrs OCDevin and millions of other Turks like him - as demonstrated above, the Republic of Ostrich is a more appropriate name for a country whose inhabitants are blind to the truth and don't have the courage to face it and move on even theough the whole world is telling them to do so. Over and OUT!
It is astonishing to read that President Obama did not use the word "genocide" to describe the slaughter of nearly 2 million Armenians during 1915-23, knowing that the word "genocide" was coined by Jurist Raphael Lemkin to specifically describe the barbarity that befell the Armenians at the hands of the Turks.
Dr. Lemkin, a lawyer of Polish-Jewish descent and Holocaust survivor, used the word "genocide" in 1943 to describe the genocide of the Armenians and then the Holocaust. Dr. Lemkin played an important role in compelling the United Nations to adopt the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in 1948.
In a 1949 CBS news interview, Dr. Lemkin talked about the UN Convention and the Armenian genocide. Showing footage of Turkish soldiers brutally chasing and killing Armenians, Dr. Lemkin explained that the Turks acted with the intent to annihilate nearly 2 million Armenians who were driven from their homes to perish in the desert or die before they got there.
Before the word "genocide" existed, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and world leaders described the events as the "Armenian holocaust." President Obama, who does not speak Armenian, used the Armenian phrase "Medz Yeghern" (The great catastrophe) thus shielding Turkey of any accountability for its crimes of genocide under the UN convention and international laws.
Imagine if back in the days of West Germany the US president refrained from using the word "Holocaust" not wanting to offend or sour relations with a strategic NATO ally, thus only describing the destruction of the European Jewry during World War II as "Ha Shoah".
In 1985, the United Nations Sub-commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities recognized the Armenian Genocide in an official report.
In 2003, the International Center for Transitional Justice found that the events of 1915 include "all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the 1948 U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide."
And, in 2005 the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) unanimously affirmed the Armenian genocide.
The Armenian genocide has been officially recognized by the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly, the Parliament of Europe, and many European countries, including France, Germany, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Poland, Sweden, Slovakia, Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Lithuania, and the Vatican.
The Armenian genocide has also been acknowledged by Armenia, Russia, Lebanon, Uruguay, Argentina, Chile, Australia and 43 U.S. states, and by scores of international organizations worldwide.
so they protested in LA so what? Why not protest by the thousands in front of the White House or something? Because nobody wants to travel? That is the price of Armenian commitment, protest in the neighborhood. If they really care they should hop on nthe plane by the thousands and drive to Washington DC to protest not in Little Armenia!!!
As a child, I grew up with stories and speeches regarding the Armenian genocide. It was very confusing for a child living in the 1940's America. Insights regarding this episode in history came much later. I came to understand why I could not met my grandparents, aunts and uncles and numerous cousins. I also learned that my father came to the U.S. as a 15 year old with a cousin leaving his birth family of 13 behind in the old country. How devastating it must have been for a teen age boy to learn that his family had been murdered in cold blood and that the place of his early life had been erased. I realized the burden my father carried for the rest of his life, the grief, guilt and despair that comes from the annihilation of ones cultural and familial rootedness. I also came to realize the grief and depression of all Armenians of the diaspora. Normal emotions were not possible for our people living in a secure, peaceful and prosperous country while contemplating the willful slaughter of our ancestors. All Armenians have souls tormented by the memory of the genocide and also at the injustice of the Turkish government's refusal to acknowlege the brutal crimes of the Ottoman Empire. Independent of whether reparations are called for, the souls of Armenians every where, but especially the souls of the innocent men, women and children who died because their beliefs were different, requires an accounting of what happened and the recognition of what happened. Armenian people and the consience of humanity as a whole must face what is true and and what is just. Denial of genocide poisons the spirit of mankind. My wish for myself and others is to experience justice before my dying day.
Mourad Jan, how beautifully put. I am of the second generation born in the US, but my soul--as you so perfectly described--is still tormented by the memory of the genocide. So is my son's. And, some day, when they are old enough to learn of the horrors our people were subject to, my grandchildren will be tormented too.
From your beautiful writing, I assume you must be Araxy's brother. Arax was a dear friend and mentor at UW. She gave me a beautiful old volume of Armenia poetry. It is among my most prized possessions.
Obama is a trader, period. I knew once he went to the house and faced the Turkish Politicians that he would change his mind... America needs Turkey and they don't want anything or anyone country to get in the way - even if that makes Obama a flip flopper - I didn't vote for him and wished he never became our president... the Guy has one plan and it's the "New World Order" trust me, this too will unveil itself slowly...
Good letter but Obama is a charismatic person who knows what to get and how to get it... Mr. Nobody lied to millions of people "Change" and became the president on this great nation.. shame on us for voting for this "New World Order" member - Obama can care less about the Armenian issue - he doesnt people - let's wake up and stop praising this guy - I hate calling him my President as the guy doesnt even have enough credentials to be a Senator let alone the President ??? It's time for Americans to create a 3rd Party - the Reps and Dems are both sellouts - we need a conservative party in the US to rise and bring equality and real "change" not like the one Obama promised which we will never get... take care guys!
No evidence Genocide took place ? what a lowlife - sorry for being blunt but you are annoying me... go to google image search and type Armenian Genocide and look at the pics - and if you can still say that was not Genocide than in my opinion, you are not human and your blood is not red like the rest of the humans on earth....
http://www.firstgenocide.com
Finally the ARF Has Resumed Its Traditional Role
No, it has not, assuming you mean a revolutionary role in which it can enact viable, meaningful change. It certainly has not fully become an opposition party. On April 30 the ARF agreed to continue chairing two parliamentary committees just days after they announced pulling out of the coalition—the foreign affairs committee lead by Armen Rustamian and the defense committee lead by Artur Aghabekian. However on May 4, Aghabekian, a former deputy defense minister, decided to resign from his post anyway on the basis of principle. He has yet to be replaced by another ARF member.
As the only effective counterbalance to the present administration in Yerevan, the ARF has put the administration on notice that it will monitor the government’s actions, propose alternative strategies, and publicly evaluate the national security issues that may be adversely impacted by the direction the negotiations appear to be going.
No, it is not the "only effective counterbalance to the present administration” because it has not fully pulled out of the ruling coalition. It cannot work as a true opposition force because of this simple reason. It cannot introduce alternative means of legislation and will not be able to have any say in national or foreign policy because the Republican party is the ruling power and has the overwhelming majority of seats in parliament and government. The ARF cannot pass any legislation in parliament unless it gains Republican votes (not to mention votes from the oppositional Heritage party) in its favor. This will not happen because the ruling regime calls all the shots in Armenian politics and national/foreign policies. The government clearly does not care what its coalition partners have to say. This was proved with the signing of the perilous “roadmap” on April 22 by Turkey and Armenia without the prior knowledge and consent of the ARF. The ARF has only gone along with the governmental policies of both the Kocharian and Sarkisian administrations, no matter how misguided or impractical. So nothing will change as long as the ARF remains in “constructive opposition.”
The ARF has the organizational structure, credibility, and experience gained during the past century as Turkey’s principal adversary in the international arena to augment, redirect, and evaluate strategies that will protect the national security and enhance the future of the Armenian nation.
No, it does not. The ARF has very low support in Armenia, this is an indisputable fact. If you recall, presidential candidate Vahan Hovhannisian only earned 6 percent of the vote in the 2008 elections despite a proactive campaign, and it didn't fare particularly well in the 2007 parliamentary elections, either. The ARF cannot “augment, redirect, and evaluate strategies” because it does not have the political influence and the support of the majority of Armenian citizens, who are apathetic to begin with and do not necessarily see differences in how the country would be run or how foreign policies will be enacted should a new government be formed. Many Armenian citizens do not take the ARF seriously as an effective political force that can be in true opposition to the Sarkisian administration and keep its policies in check, especially after its recent decision to retain two parliamentary committee seats. You cannot be a legitimate oppositional force with wide public support unless you fully resign from government-appointed positions. Then you must earn that support from the public.
Assumptions about the ARF’s credibility and effectiveness in Armenia are not helpful. The issues the ARF faces in Armenia must be understood by supporters and members alike, then they must be addressed expediently. The ARF can have a role in influencing policies and legislation in the Armenian public, but it cannot do it as an irresolute political party that claims to be in opposition with minimal support. Needless to say, the organization has a tremendous amount of work to do if it wishes to get anything accomplished.
Because he has nothing to lose; because he is the third person to the cause; because he has lost nothing and is continuing to lose nothing except the illusion of dignity he claims to uphold or possess. In reality, one is called "principled" when he talks in the face of risks and dangers. The President of Armenia and all the true and proper Armenians living in Armenia are sick of the diaspora's obsessions.
I am sorry that our President is doing this! It is another bad decision to add to a long list of bad decisions that he is making and has made.
If Obama can't solve Darfurian Genocide in this civilized century and half of his genes arrived from African sun; can he recognize Armenian genocide alone?
All Europe knows about Armenian Genocide who are neighbors to Armenia. Come and ask any Syrian Bedouin
he will tell you stories of Genocide no one heard yet before(even taking the liver of Armenian babies after killing the pregnant mother.)
I will tell you simple equation; it’s well known that United kingdom has tree ethnicities: Scotch, English, and Welsh. Two of their three parliaments (Scottish and Welsh) recognized the Armenian Genocide and English parliament still not. Ask any clever seven-year student let he/she solve this problem!
U.S. public relations firms must register with the U.S. Department of Justice when representing foreign governments and entities, according to the Foreign Agent Registration Act. That law was first adopted in 1938 in the response to Nazi manipulation of media and lobbying efforts in the U.S. It basically states that foreign entities may indeed lobby and advocate their concerns but there must be transparency in their actions - i.e. who their lobbyists speak with, what materials they disseminate and how much they are paid to do this work.
So the question begs - if these Think Tanks are essentially shilling for foreign masters to keep their doors open, shouldn't they be registering with Department of Justice as well? Or perhaps, they should be compelled to reveal their foreign funding sources every time they issue a report. It would certainly place their work in perspective - and perhaps "encourage" some of these think tank folks to be more intellectually honest. . .
According to well-known Jewish physician at Kings College Medical School, London, United Kingdom; who always use to say that he is an Armenian- Jew, which I never heard before, he knew very well about Armenian Genocide. Also another college teacher at (south-East London) he always said he is an Armenian- Jew. Both were proud to tell their origin. Their grandparents came from Anatolia. Those are facts if any one knows more about it let us know. Even both said, their boys prefer to get married to an Armenian- Jewish girls, they have special community in New York.
Genocide acknowledgment is important, yes.
But so are reparations and territory.
I am truly shocked and dismayed that President Obama not only did not keep his promise to Armenia, then adding insult to injury, he has hurt Armenia with his unballanced request to favor Azerbaijan with more funds.
Can somebody please explain to me how he can justify such a disgraceful act?
Eva Medzorian
Lovely poem!
Before the election I told my Armenian brothers that Obama is a stealth Muslim and he would not mention the word genocide on April 24th. Since being elected he has tilted American foreign policy to the favor of Turkey, the Arabs, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Azerbaijan, and Iran, and to the detriment of Israel and Armenia.
Russian support is now more critical than ever for Armenia. You can depend on the West to stab the Orthodox peoples in the back (which they have been doing for centuries).
Everyone knows that Devil Satan exists and we must all agree on this so therefore why think better of Christians? Hello kids this problem no president can solve as far as US is in question but God sees everything have faith in God for last days are here. Let’s see politics belongs to Satan the Devil and real Christians belong to God so figure you’re never ending history. If my grand father did not escape I would never had been born, it’s extremely sad and it goes to all Armenians! Love one another and they'll know you are Christians ...Jesus words, I believe Armenians loved all their neighbors and never discriminated like Turks did so we failed! Greeks were killed too BECAUSE THEY WERE CHRISTIAN TOO. People don't understand something that what ever Christian country would have been in place of ARMENIA or GREECE massacre would have happened to another Christian nation! WAKE UP!
Armenia's salient needs include:
1. Armenia becoming economically strong--can't happen if the exit to the outside world is only Russia via Georgia
2. Democracy and the rule of law become prime descriptors of Armenia. While this is overwhelmingly dependent on the people and government of Armenia to accomplish, this process can be facilitated by an open border to the West. Hopefully it becomes an EU border.
Insisting on Turkey surrendering land to Armenia or no deal to establish diplomatic relations or no open border seems needlessly self-destructive.
Armenia's national leadership seems to have an objective and sober assessment of their situation. They are moving in the right direction to help insure a better future for their country. I wish them well. I believe my country sees reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia as being in its interests. I hope the USA continues to thread its way through this difficult dialogue and facilitates the development of a Mutual Understanding.
I don't think he's a Muslim -- just dishonest and disingenuous. But really, what politician isn't? This same thing would have happened with Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and especially Ron Paul.
Yesterday Armenian betrayed their own country of Ottoman Empire by cooperating Russia today American Armenian are betraying their father land by keeping on telling the same lies...
A little over-dramatic, no?
This is an excellent analysis of the power of apology. Apology does all that the author claims it does, but apology does one other thing. Effective aplolgy corroborates the facts In other words, an effective apology allows the offender and the victim to get on the same side of the facts. The offender has to give up his struggle with history and in some measure accept the narrative of the victim. THis is not easy on a personal level, and it becomes even more difficult at the ntional level.
Still, some countries can do it. Nazi Germany did it after World War II. Japan is still struggling. As the article notes, the U.S. finally came to terms with its actions regarding the internment of Japanese nationals. More recently, South Africans and now the people of Rwanda and Cambodia are engaging in truth and reconciliation processes in which the the corroborative role of apology is in full flower.
The Turks and Armenins are still struggling over the facts. As long as the facts are in dispute, attempts at apology will be unproductive.
I have just written a book on apology in which I discuss the this apology. See www.effectiveapology.com for more details on the book and a blog about apology.
Where's the "community’s disappointment and outrage" over the slow murder and oppression of TODAY's Armenians? Where is the Diaspora's support of the intellectuals fighting alone for a decent and honest country in the last sliver of a homeland? Where is the 'community's' indignation over AAA/ANCA's continued appeasment of the neaderthals that have driven away Western support and respect?
Thank you for the emails, but for some reason I never get the photos or graphics. Is the problem on my end or from the email.. Otherwise keep up the great work!
Be well,
John Daghlian
This article, "Armenia: Yesterday, Today, and Maybe No Tomorrow" is really good because young Armenian readers often do not know what happened to Armenians in the pastat the hands of the Turks, except perhaps for a very general knowledge of the genocide. These young generations may, therefore, repeat the mistakes of the past or become vuilnerable to Turkish propaganda. We can't assume that just because some of us know about Armenian history that all Armenians do. In fact, I would like to suggest that seminars for young Armenians be held which actually explain the historical points raised by the author. There is an unfortunate tendency among some liberal Armenians to say, in effect, "Oh, the Turks of today are different - they would never commit massacres or deportations again." Really? Ask the Kurds what they have been going through in Turkey and tell me "it can't happen again." Tell the Armenians in Karabagh that "it can't happen again."
Permit me to respond to Mr. Guliyev's false contention that Turkish Armenians themselves revolted with Russian help against the wretched Ottoman Empire.
The Jews of Palestine - in Palestine itself - cooperated with the British against the Ottomans during WW I (see Yair Auron's book, The Banality of Denial). Should Jews have been wiped out too, Mr. Guliyev? The Arabs revolted with British help against the Ottomans. T.E. Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia") played a huge role in that. Mr. Guliyev, go tell the Arabs that Taalat should have cleansed them from Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, etc. See what their reacti0n is.
I wonder if Mr. Guliyev realizes how bad it makes Turkey look to use alleged revolts as an excuse for wiping out people. Actually, as an Armenian, I kind of like his doing that. It reflects badly on the Turkish government.
Please Armenians, stop with the Muslim crap. It wasn't the Muslims who drank our blood, it was the Turks. Religion has nothing to do with it. It's all about our lands and nothing more. I am sick over the betrayal by Obama (whom I supported for a variety of reasons). If McCain had been elected, we'd have a liar, a war monger, and a moron in the White House.
Heaven forbid an Armenian "insult" a turk. Yeah, we're victimizers. Wake up Hagop.
sorry to hear that but is unbroken promise from Obama....
i commend mr. sassounian for his comments and wish his remarks, as well as others that relate to the armenian genocide could receive recognition in electronic and print media, not just in armenian media
shant markarian, dds
Is anyone really surprised? I am continually surprised that people believed him. Obama wants everyone to think he's different. But he isn't. He's just another politician who will say anything he has to to get elected.
Elizabeth, this is a great comment, one that should be pursued. Does anyone know any international law experts who could push for this? What about Mark Geragos? I doubt these "think tanks" would ever be more intellectually honest, but at least they would be exposed for what they really are.
I agree with everything Debra said... I was amazed how the Armenian comunity was supporting Obama and all my friends thought I was crazy or something when I would tell them that Oabama will change his views within month after becoming president... well, sad to say it happened... IMPEACH OBAMA - LOL
I am embarrassed to say that I was one of Obama's first supporters. I purchased books and tee shirts to support Obama the candidate...I no longer like Obama the president. I will to send them to the white house. I suggest we pick a day where all Armenians that supported him send back their Obama paraphernalia. With it a note stating, I hope the Armenian Issue doesn't mark the beginning of a huge back-slide of compromised campaign promises.
There is no question that we've been ditched by the Obama Administration which is following State Dept policy. I've just finished two letters --- one to the President and one to Speaker Pelosi on these issues. Exactly right as stated above -- the Genocide Resolution must now be back on the table and Congress must not let parity between Azerbaijan and Armenia be ignored. Letters, phone calls --- everything --- we've got to get back to work.
I know that it would have been much worse with McCain. However, my outrage is worse now because I actually believed Obama would hold to his promise. I also don't understand why he didn't inform our two leading organizations in D.C. ahead of time that he was going to do this. Why spring it on us?
No matter how upset I am --- I'm still a Democrat and have to hold their feet to the fire.
Actually, this is the beginning of a huge back-slide of promises. What ever happened to ending the war in Iraq? What's with the escalation in Afghanistan? Next thing you know he'll be rattling sabers at Iran. Have any Hayer been in contact with Jon Huntsman (whose father spent million and millions rebuilding Hayastan after the earthquake)? Maybe we start a Jon Huntsman in 2012 campaign right now.
Be careful Armenian Social Network, or some "good Armenian" like Hagop will criticize you. He apologized to a turk and called me a victimizer when I told that other turk who posted some nonsense here to crawl back under his rock in Mongolia.
I'm not one bit surprised that Obama has turned on the Armenians. I'm sorry to all of you fellow Armenians who actually voted for him, believing his empty promises of standing behind Armenians, among all of his other promises. The man is a good 'campaigner' & that's it. How right McCain was when he compared Obama to a celebrity. What kind of president pokes fun at a situation where Air Force One scared so many citizens in NY that still have PTSD from 9/11 or makes fun of a former VP, even if he doesnt care for him. Where is the respect for the USA and its good loving citizens. This is why I wrote to ANCA when they were pushing us all to vote for him. You DON'T vote for someone because he "promsies" to make another country fess up to what they did to a whole ethnic group many years ago. (and my grandfather & other relatives survived that massacre!) Now everyone is seeing the true man that was elected by so many who believed his BS. I'm sorry to say, but just wait to see whats in store for all of us good loving USA citizens....things are only going to get worse, much worse... PLEASE WAKE UP and realize what is going on in a country that is supposed to be free. Fight for what this country was founded on so many years ago. Realize and research what we are in store here with Obama's wonderful "CHANGE" before its too late.
Like I said in Asbarez, I blame all this ENTIRELY on the Armenian president, Serge Sargsian. It is entirely HIS FAULT that Obama is breaking all his promises. He signed that so-called "Road Map" agreement TWO DAYS before April 24. He is a spineless man who has caved in to foreign pressure. He is not acting on the interests of the Armenian people and thus, he is dangerous to have as our president. By jeopardizing our national security, he and our Foreign Affairs Minister have committed treason against the Armenian state. What's worse, Serge is gonna stay as our president for at least another 3 years. GOD HELP US!! Ո՜վ Աստուած, քեզ կ'աղաչեմ որ օգնես մեզ:
None of this is surprising to me. People who did their homework on him and his past record knew what was ahead. Putting aside the whole "Armenian thing", the man doesn't even like America (as evidenced by his long-time associations whom he threw under the bus when they started to become problematic to him) or Americans, other than those who put his agenda of making this a Eurpoean style (if not worse) Socialist country ahead of all else. Hang onto your hats, folks - this is just the beginning. LS
I have come to believe that every American administration, democrat or republican has their own political agenda to pursue, president Obama is no different. Armenians have had a steadfast agenda of our own, lets not let an American flip flop President divert us from that.
Arpi, you are also narrow-minded and delusional. But it's nice to have proof of "bad Armenians" like yourself -- the ones who manage to disrespect and alienate both Turks and Mongolians (whether "good" or "bad") in a single sentence. Keep posting.
You people are fools for voting for this guy. And the ANCA is even more foolish for endorsing him last fall. I'm glad I didn't fall for the propaganda. I just feel sorry for all of you that thought Barack Obama was a "friend" to Armenians. I knew this was coming, and judging from some of the previous posts here, I'm not the only Armenian with some sense!
Harout Sassounian's presentation was warmly and enthusiastically received with long applause and there were many questions and comments following his presentation, another indication of the excitment he aroused. In his response to one of the questions and comments he ennumerated the Armenian losses as a result of the Genocide and pointed out that it is THE CONSEQUENCES of the Genocide that we should be concentrating on and how to eliminate thise consequences. Following this I added my penny's worth by commenting on the current Republic of Armenia's extreme vulnarability and lack of security as a state and the continuing danger hanging over the Armenian people given such a vulnerable state with such aggressive Genocide denying neighbour as Turkey. I pointed out that it was very immoral and unfair of the EU and US to expect "Armenia and Turkey to get on with each other and to resolve 'their dispute'" as it would be likewise if they had left an undefeated Nazi Germany and a crushed Poland or Slovakia/imaginary Israeli state next to it to "get on and sort out their disputes". Such a scenario is unfathomable and, therefore should not be expected of Armenia either. The civilised world has a duty to de-Nazify Turkey, just as it did with Germany, as Turkey has shown it is incapable of reforming itself.
Baroness Cox then closed the meeting by giving a brief summary of Azerbaijani aggression against the Armenias in Artsakh as a continuation of the same Turkish genocidal policy that had to be resisted. she warned against Armenian complacency in the face of muti million Turkish and Azeri anti-Armenian propaganda and added that 'there is a serious danger that the Armenians may lose in the propaganda war, the brilliant victories they had won on the military front.
Morality—Mortality in Politics
In politics, does morality exist?
I do not know what else persists.
Alter like waves no one can chase.
Come and go through foggy shades.
Morality, if it can’t exist.
How humans can smell cheers.
Can any soul walk endlessly
In muddy crisscross streets!
Lies exist in their drinks.
Smirk cunningly as part of gears.
To say what’s not to be done.
Is the summit of smiles, seized?
Morality is like fallen leaves.
The tree stays to see the deaths.
The branches weep even in spring.
When summer dawns, shoots new leaves.
Politics if diseased means a real cancer.
Spreads to kill, sound, breeding cells.
The ailing stays engulfing stem cells,
Even before they start to breed.
Honesty if it exists
Never signs to be politics.
The skins need false hands to rub
To weir others, who for truth they carve.
Mr president Obama you lost 1.5 million American-Armenian and 6 million worldwide Armenians Love and Trust
And yet Nazi Germany had to be defeated and destroyed militarily and the racist ideological and educational underpinnings of the Nazi state dismantled and wiped out through a long process of de-Nazification, all of which WAS IMPOSED. And it was imposed from OUSIDE. It is highly unlikely that Nazi Germany would have been able or willing to reform itself, even partially. The assasination attempt on Hitler and a few of his top Nazi party leaders in early 1944 could have been the catalyst for some radical changes but without the Allied military pressure (pounding the system to smitherins) it would have petered out into another variant of racist Nazism. Ironically we could well have been witnessing official Nazi-German history, for example denying the Holocaust and even insisting that "the Jewish traitors tried to stab us Germans in the back... etc. etc."!
In other words exactly what we have in Turkey vis-a-vis the denial of the Armenian Genocide and the manufacture of fantesy history in general, based on racist ideology of Turkism. The squabbles the various sections (AKP Islamists v CHP and other Kemalist Nationalist) are having with each other in present day Turkey are essentially for the PRESERVATION of the fundamentals of the system not for its radical democratic reform towards European/international civilised values. This has been consistent despite some ups and downs, a coup here and a coup there, over the past eight or so decades: Turkey for Turks underpinned by the racist nationalist ideology of Turkism. And this has been due to the failure of Allied intervention or rather its abortion before it achieved its results, due to the trechery of certain Allied countries and loss of nerve to finish the job of dismantling of the Ottoman state, initiated by the Ataturk-Stalin pact which helped to revive the former's nationalist movement in Ankara, attracting all the former Young Turk criminals round him. So a state that was prostate and ready for dismantlement (the defeated Ottoman government after the Modros treaty and the occupation of Istanbul by he British and the French in Nov 1918) for all the crimes that it had committed against millions of its Christian population - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. - ended up revived and restated in Ankara under Ataturk's leadership.
Its racist Turkist ideology which has been constant and consitent must be destroyed through joint international intervention by EU, US and Russia, militarily, if necessary. It is incapable of reforming itself - as for example the post by OCDEVIN and millions of other victims of official racist history and ideology proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
Ana,
Will MSNBC allow you guys to say the things you said about Lenny Kravtiz? =). Only then, will I support the show.
Lucine has a unique way expressing her thoughts , it is intellectually provocative and yet
it reflects the truth , which makes some people uncomfortable specially the ones who are blinded by optimistic statements of some leaders in Armenian society , yet it will be well advised if these optimistic leaders look at turkey's negations tactics for cypress they have not given un an inch to europe , US and greece they did not do it yesterday they are not doing it today and may be they will do it sometime in the future but they will extract a heavy price
Armenians made same mistake backing John Kerry. Where is Kerry's former outrage? At least the Bush Administration took the fight to the Terrorist Muslims, yet Obama and Kerry have put it to the Hyes to get their votes.Remember Reverend Wright, "Damm America". Obama even cancelled Prayer Day. If he were a Christian he would not have said a prayer in a Turkish Mosque. I am a life long Democrat, yet I did not vote for Obama, a man who hates our country and relegion.
I agree with you on the propositions. No on everything until we can trust the people who write these things from playing 'bait and switch' with us. I don't trust them anymore - a proposition to lower taxes turns out to raise them etc.
But as for City Attorney, the choice between Carmen Trutanich and Jack Weiss is a lot clearer than you say. Most of the criticism of Trutanich is based on false statements and deceptive advertising put out by Weiss. We don't want a deceptive person as our City Attorney. Weiss comes from a wealthy privileged background, and has no connection with regular people - all he knows are the Westside elite. Weiss broke the law just 2 weeks ago when he took part in an illegal fundraiser in a $16M Beverly Hills mansion hosted by a City Pensions Board Commissioner; Kelly Candaele. That's a violation of LA Municipal Code 49.7.8 which prohibits City appointees from engaging in fundraising. Candaele resigned. This was all reported in the LA Times.
Carmen Trutanich was born and raised of immigrant parents in San Pedro. His father worked in a Tuna canning factory, as did Carmen, to pay his way through law school. He's a self-made man who never had anything given to him on a plate. Trutanich's first job was at the District Attorney's Office where he tackled gang members for 10 years before leaving to start a successful private law firm. In 21 years as a private defense attorney and civil litigator, Trutanich has not a single complaint filed against him.
Weiss, on the other hand, has 40 ethics violations filed against him.
The thrust of Weiss's criticism of Trutanich is based on Trutanich being a defense attorney, that's not a crime. People charged with crimes deserve a defense - guilty or not. It's what our constitution demands. Weiss himself has used defense attorneys - it's just another example of how deceptive Jack Weiss is.
So, the choice comes down to this; Do you want a City Attorney with a clean record, who understands what it's like to be a ordinary person just trying to make a living, or do you want a Westside politician with a record of ethics violations?
Vote Trutanich for City Attorney, please
I've lived in Council District 5 the entire seven-plus years Weiss has misrepresented that district.
During that period of time, Weiss has been fined for numerous ethical violations, may be investigated for additional recent fundrasing violations, has been notorious for ignoring his constituents and missing City Council meetings, and repeatedly displayed incompetence in general and surprising legal incompetence for someone who desires to be City Attorney.
I know little about Trutanich, other than the fact that he appears to be a competent attorney who, in almost thirty years in practice, has never been disciplined by the California Bar.
I don't believe in rewarding someone who has displayed gross incompetence for seven-plus years and has been repeatedly rude to the people who hired him (Council District 5 residents).
If enough people disagree with me, we'll get an opportunity to see if Weiss can mismanage the City Attorney's Office to the extent he has mismanaged his City Council Office.
I hope voters keep the above in mind.
Time to send all democrats a message. Do not contribute to any congressional races; get the word out about the other ways in which the President is systematically breaking his promises and walking America down the socialist path.
We are about to live in a country where we are to buy cars made by a government owned manufacturerer; the government owns the banks by as it "expropriates" the healthy banks refusing to let them repay Tarp which they were coerced into accepting; nationalies medicine; and the list goes on.and on.
All this is being done to appease a populist sentiment which is presumed to be in the majority. Well it is time to tell the congressional representatives that there is no majority populist sentiment. And it is time that our organizations - such as the ANCA - to call it like it is - and ask Armenian Americans to become activists against all democratic candidates.
Let's mobilize in areas where we can have an impact. More than 3,000 Armenian Americans helped elect the President. We need to organize again to fight the Democrats and expose the President.
And yet Nazi Germany had to be defeated and destroyed militarily and the racist ideological and educational underpinnings of the Nazi state dismantled and wiped out through a long process of de-Nazification, all of which WAS IMPOSED. And it was imposed from OUSIDE. It is highly unlikely that Nazi Germany would have been able or willing to reform itself, even partially. The assassination attempt on Hitler and a few of his top Nazi party leaders in early 1944 could have been the catalyst for some radical changes but without the Allied military pressure (pounding the system to smithereens) it would have petered out into another variant of racist Nazism. Ironically today we could well have been witnessing official Nazi-German history, for example denying the Holocaust and even insisting that “the Jewish traitors tried to stab us Germans in the back… etc. etc.”!
In other words exactly what we have in Turkey vis-a-vis the denial of the Armenian Genocide, and the manufacture of fantasy history in general, based on the racist ideology of Turkism. The squabbles the various sections (AKP Islamists v CHP and other Kemalist Nationalist) are having with each other in present day Turkey are essentially for the PRESERVATION of the fundamentals of the system not for its radical democratic reform towards European/international civilised values. This has been consistent despite some ups and downs, a coup here and a coup there, over the past eight or so decades: Turkey for Turks underpinned by the racist nationalist ideology of Turkism. And this has been due to the failure of Allied intervention or rather its abortion before it had achieved its results (1918-23), due to the treachery of certain Allied countries and loss of nerve to finish the job of dismantling of the rotten Ottoman state, first and foremost by the Ataturk-Stalin pact which helped to revive the nationalist movement in Ankara, attracting all the former Young Turk criminals round Mustafa Kemal. So a state that was prostrate and ready for dismantlement (the defeated Ottoman state after the Mudros Treaty and the occupation of Istanbul by the British and French forces in Nov 1918) for all the crimes that it had committed against millions of its Christian population - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. - ended up revived and restated in Ankara under Ataturk’s leadership.
Its racist Turkist ideology which has been constant and consistent must be destroyed through joint international intervention by EU, US and Russia, militarily if necessary. It is incapable of reforming itself - as for example the post by OCDEVIN and millions of other victims of official racist history and ideology proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
President Obama: You systematically crushed our hopes. I feel duped, foolish, brokenhearted and disgusted, all at the same time. I think you missed your "calling" - you should have been an actor...
I guess there were a lot of Armenians who drank the Obama Kool-Aid. You have been
scammed. This guy got what he wanted...votes. He does not care about anything but power.
Yes I am Armenian. You could not pay me enough money to vote for Obama.
Haven't the Kurds been the ones that committed most of the atrocities during this genocide?
First, let me say I am disgusted with Obama. Second, let me say I voted for him for a number of reasons, not just because of his promise (now broken) to the Armenians. As disappointed as I am, I am still glad he won rather than McCain. I will not vote for Obama again, but neither will I vote for a Republican out of spite. I might vote for Jon Huntsman if he run or I might just drop out of American society altogether.
As for being scammed, I can't believe any self-respecting Armenian would vote for a war mongering candidate like McCain. The country is still better off with Obama, despite the heartbreak he has caused.
Yes, they played a huge part. The most chilling thing I ever read was a Kurd's response when he asked if he ever felt ashamed of what he had done. One time, he said, he did feel ashamed (although he had killed many Armenians). One time, a little boy, aged 6 or 7 was able to somehow escape a building (might have been a church, don't remember) the Kurd had just set on fire. When the little boy saw the Kurd, he stopped, looked at him, then ran back into the burning building. I guess the realization that he (the Kurd) was more horrifying than death by fire caused him to feel ashamed.
These are the people (I use the term loosely) crying crocodile tears now. The same people who are claiming our lands of Van and Dikranagerd. Despite their Indo-European origins, the Kurds might as well be Turks as far as I'm concerned.
Yes the Kurds willingly committed much of the atrocities.
Part of it is the "enemy of the enemy is a friend" principle in effect. Part of it is that Kurds have not denied the Genocide in the manner that the Turks have. It all kind of gets whitewashed. Kurds don't harp on it, Armenians don't point it out since they are "friends".
What I find ironic is Armenians speak of wanting their lands back. Lands which we have Kurds living on .. not Turks.
We shall see when our children assume the vast debt.
Liberals take away freedom (like Obama). Conservatives preserve freedom.
As for a war mongering candidate, I am in the Navy and proud of my service.
I am also proud of all who serve and protect our freedoms. Too bad Obama wishes
to take them away.
God bless you and I hope you wake up.
PS: I am glad you saw the light on Obama. There may be hope for you yet.
Does anyone even know what this aid money is actually used for ? The money is not earmarked for
new medical equipment or food ...most of it goes to funding State Department programs (through US AID) to shape Armenian society in the image of the West. Ultimately, the money is spent on the salaries of non-Armenian Americans who go over there to "punch a ticket" on their resume.
The Military spending is really silly. $3 or $4 million of spending on officer training makes no difference. Azeris have more money to spend on the military then Armenia ever will and Armenia uses all Russian equipment. So what is it that we are upset about?
KURDS are starting to come forward and tell the truth about the armenian and assyrian genocide
which they were the henchmen for the turks. When they are going thru the deportations
forced assimlation and being killed, now they relise what they did to armenians or how it feels to be a victim.
They the Kurds should return every property of the Armenians and Assyrians which they killed the owners and took their properties and their children too.
To everyone who cannot stand Obama because of his "official" position on the Genocide: What would you have done differently? Voted for McCain who's personal and official position was going to be that those issues are best left to Historians to debate. Every president makes promises while campaigning and then faces the reality of the how decisions are made once they are president.
It's silly how much importance we put into what other people say about us. If President Obama used the word Genocide not one thing would have changed with Turkey. Not..one..thing.
I have never been more disapointed than what President Obama did on not using the "G" word on April 24th. On five occasions he pledged to recognize the Armenian Genocide but failed as a president on recognizing the truth. I have now lost my faith in not only Obama but all past presidents whom made there solemn promise to recognize this well documented Genocide of the Armenian People. Shame on these presidents whom the Turks have put pressure on them and by using five Jewish Organizations by the Turkish Government to do their dirty work. Armenians must wake up and change the way we do things. A demonstration against the President and the State Dept. must be a plus immediately in Washington, DC.
In a way, the Kurds have admitted, not with pride, their part of the genocide. I believe it was in a 1992 edition of National Geographic magazine while interviewing a Kurd commenting about the Armenian genocide ". . .it was a dark day in our history. . ."
The Kurds participated in the genocide and do not deny the facts. They made there mistakes and don't pretend it never happened. They are open minded and not HYPOCRITES. They apologized for the mistake, something the turks are to ignorant and blind to do or see. Life is all about learning from mistakes but majority of turks do not understand that, which is why there is always war and blood shed.
Ok now!!.. I really don't care how much money is being sent to Armenia, because Armenians in Armenia don't see those dollars coming or helping the nation in any ways. All these millions of dollars go to Sarkisyan's (a.k.a. Serjik) and his gang members' pockets. So do I care? NO!! As far as I know Armenian government wants to open the boarders with Turkey and Azerbaijan and establish "better" relationship with them. Now we are asking less for Azerbaijan and more for Armenia? Can't we just ask more for Armenia? It seems that we Armenians don't know what we want, and thanks to our ignorant and ridiculously stupid president, things got more confusing. Armenian government has done NOTHING to derserve more!!!...And we, American Armenians, need to stop blaming Obama's administration, and shift our attention to Armenia and its government. To gain credibility, respect and monetary help, CHANGE Armenian mafia governtment. I admire Obama and what he is doing for the U.S....
To people who misread the article
The article is not about Democrats and Republicans. Why don't you take your braggings somewhere else...
Kurds come forward because there is no land to give back and etc....
Give Obama some time!!!
What is the discussion about here? How can a nation, and its leader recognize the genocide of others when it denies the genocide of its own people? The United States was, and is an empire which has a long history of denying its own heinous crimes. Given this fact, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. It should be clean even to a two year old!
It needed to be said. We are often our own worst enemy... I often get the sense that our defeatist and divisive attitude breeds a self-fulfilling reality. We would all do well to remember this the next time we are tempted to take solace from our position in the stands.
Wow. It's amazing how many Turk Kemalists are burping their propoganda on this site. Is this a Turkish national pastime to visit Armenian news and blogger sites and spew your denylist propaganda? Muwahahahaha!
If we don't like a person just because he is Kurdish, or Armenian or Turkish or Muslim or Christian and we have no qualms about writing it to expose our bigotry, then we clearly do not want any improvement in the relations between the ethnicities/cultures. Armenians, Kurds and Turks lived together and shared the same culture for at least a millennium (and they still do.) Let us not forget previous hardships in the same exact geographical location nominally instigated by Ivan the Terrible. Timur, Jengiz Khan, The Crusaders, Scythians, Arab invaders, Alexander the Great, Xerxes, Gog Magog etc etc. The conflict existed at the same exact location even when the said ethnicities did not even exist. Free your mind!
I find it fascinating that Armenians are always reprimanded for "not liking" Turks and Kurds just because they are Turks or Kurds (as if this is some horrible thing) when it was absolutely fine for Turks and Kurds to KILL Armenians just because they were Armenian. Let's see...not liking compared to KILLING. I think the Turks and Kurds have not earned the right to tell Armenians what to feel or think or to call them bigots. As for this nonsense of living together peacefully for hundreds of years...please, let's put that one to rest once and for all. The only peaceful people of the 3 were the Armenians, much to our disadvantage. The Turks used to conduct massacres about once every 20 years or so to keep Armenian numbers down all along (after arriving in the area from their original homeland--if only they had never left). I read it in an old Encyclopedia Britannica with yellowed pages, years ago when I was in junior high school.
"Armen" what is your point? That until the United States recognizes its own genocides...however you may want to define that...it has not moral standing to recognize the Armenian Genocide.? If Turkey did as much atonement for its past crimes as the United States we wouldn't have this issue.
I knew Obama was NOT going to do use the work genocide. Why should he? What can Armenia and Armenians do for him besides get him elected? I'm sure Hillary talked him out of it. What I want to know is what Joe Biden is doing? After all, supposedly, he was a big supporter of us. All politicians have to walk a tightrope to make negotiations. I knew he was trying to not upset Turkey by using his words carefully. If he used the G word, it would have alienated Turkey from the start. Nevertheless, I know ALL politicians lie and use Armenians for votes. When are you going to realize this? As long as Turkey is a NATO ally, NOTHING will change. All of these talks and negotiations are all pointless. We are nearing the 100-year mark of the genocide. Pretty soon, there will be no more survivors and each generation will lose hope. The only thing I am upset about is that the aid to Armenia is being decreased and the one to Azeris is being increased. I'm sure someone high up in U.S. government received a bribe to betray us and it was planned from the start. Everyone knows politicians lie.
I mean "word" genocide.
... who committed most of the atrocities? If you look at the map of eastern Turkey, you'll see that the Kurds asked, back then, for the more or less same portion of territory than the Armenians. Being closer to the Turks than the Armenians could be, the young Turks manipulated the Kurds by promising them a land if they would get rid of Armenians. Which the Kurds did. But, at the end, they didn't get anything.
Am I the only one who received a letter from the White House about the great plans of the Adminstration on healthcare? I guess this is because of other letters that I sent before the elections.
Reaching out to the Armenian Community?
I am supporting David Vahedi in the race to replace Jack Weiss in the 5th Council District for a number of reasons. I believe he is the most qualified candidate and possesses an almost encyclopedic understanding of the specific issues that challenge those of us who live in CD5. He has fresh, new ideas and is not beholden to the "old boys' network. He pledged from Day 1 not to accept a penny from the developers and billboard companies who have had a tremendous impact on the residents of CD5. He has been a tireless advocate for both the residents and businesses in the community. He has falsely been portrayed as a no-growth candidate which is simply false. He has run a clean and ethical campaign. His opponent has accepted a large amount of money from the same developers and billboard companies that owned Jack Weiss, and it will be business as usual if Paul Koretz is elected. Paul Koretz has slandered David Vahedi with false campaign mailers that expose his character as a liar. Moreover, I personally attended 6 different candidates forums. David Vahedi specifically answered the questions that were posed to him. Paul Koretz either could not or would not take a specific position on just about every question that was asked. Both the LA Times and the Daily News have endorsed David Vahedi for the reasons I have enumerated. I hope that you will support David Vahedi for City Council in CD5. If you want to see things get shaken up downtown, you really have no other choice. If you're satisfied with business as usual, then go ahead and vote for Paul. You will get more of the same from a career politician who moved into a rental in the district solely for the purpose of running for the seat versus a candidate who has lived in CD5 for 35 years and has already dealt with many of our problems as a tireless volunteer. Just as we brought change to Washington, DC, with the election of Barack Obama, we can bring change to the City Council with the election of David Vahedi.
It is said that the Kurds committed much of the atrocities against the Armenians during the Genocide. This is certainly true but it should be pointed out that these atrocities were masterminded by the Young Turk government; Kurds were simply used as mercenaries against the Armenians. Morevover, when we say "Kurds," we should be clear: it was the feudal Kurdish clan leadership that collaborated with the Ottoman Government and is to blame for most of these killings, not the masses of Kurdish people.
Indeed, like Armenians, many Kurds were themselves forced from their homes, put on deportations, and over 1000 were killed during WWI due to the Turkish government's mistrust and antagonism towards them. Many of the Yezidi Kurds living in Armenia today are themselves refugees from the era of the Armenian Genocide and the atrocities committed by the Turkish government. We also know that many regular Kurds and families took in Armenians during the Genocide to save them from what was happening.
What's more, despite the attacks against Armenians by Kurdish tribal elements and the divide and conquer policies executed by the Turkish state, Kurds and Armenians share a long history of solidarity. During the resistance to Sultan Abdul Hamid's Ottoman regime, there were even Kurdish fedayees who stood shoulder to shoulder with Armenians. Following the Genocide, Armenian leaders such as Vahan Papazian worked with Kurds to bring them together against the repressive policies now being turned against them by the Kemalist state.
As the 1940s came around, Kurds began increasingly breaking the grip of the old feudal clan system over their people and started forming broad based political organizations. Today, the leading Kurdish groups and institutions openly acknowledge the role played by Kurds in the Armenian Genocide, share their grievances, and most recognize the need for justice for the Armenian Cause.
Also, the argument that Kurds and Armenians have contradictory claims over the same area of land is an overblown one. To keep it brief, both Kurds and Armenians stake their international legal claims for their historical homeland on the Treaty of Sevres, which allows for both an Armenian homeland and a Kurdish semiautonomous state.
Besides all of this, the simple fact remains that, like Armenians, the Kurdish people are a brutally oppressed minority in Turkey. They have had their language and identity suppressed and criminalized; their schools and cultural monuments ransacked; their political parties and newspapers closed down and attacked; their villages and towns depopulated and burned to the ground by the thousands; their families terrorized and killed; their children's and community names turkified; and their human rights workers and journalists abducted and murdered.
They are, today, the victims of the repressive Turkish state fighting for their basic human rights, democratic freedoms, and national right to self-determination. There is no better example of the horrific consequences of allowing Turkey to get away with the Genocide than what is happening today to the Kurds. Allowing a crime to go upunished only tells the criminal that they can get away with the same crimes over and over again.
As Armenians, we know all too well what the Kurds are going through and it should be incumbent upon us to support their struggle. I commend the Armenian Weekly for being on the forefront of featuring stories on the links between Armenians and Kurds.
I have been reading your columns for years and enjoy them very much. This column has me worried about you.
My advice to you is to use the wisdom of my father (Jora Makarian) who just passed away at 92. He would say that he didn't know what getting old was all about since he had never been there before! He danced solo at his great grandson's christening at 88 and would caution me to keep dancing since at times I acted older than him.
Hey Hagop, if I'm a bad Armenian, we might as well all hang it up. I have every right to disrespect Turks. Nothing against Mongolians. Just wish the Turks had stayed where they belonged and not headed west. Wake up pal. In case you hadn't noticed, the Turk I'm supposed to respect is questioning the veracity of the genocide. What's to respect? I respect the memory of my dead, make that murdered, ancestors, not the filth that murdered them or their worthless offspring who want proof that it happened. Bad enough for ya'?
i understand the Armenian American community feels deeply betrayed upon the current budget cuts of aid however I want to point out several considerations which the previous comments didn't address. The fact of the situation is that obama has not been in office for that great of length of time and so the harsh judgments are made after soley one incident. In order to have an accurate description of obamas attitude and approach to Armenia one needs to consider far more factors over a an appropriate length of time. The second and more significant item to consider is that America as well most nations are in an economic crisis which naturally leads to cuts and reduction in foreign aid! Finally I would like to address all the critics that the obama administration did not declare the Armenian genocide just that a genocide officiallly. I agree with that statement entirely however feel the focus should be placed upon the current genocide in darfur and work to raise awareness at minimum all the while addressing the Armenian genocide!
I am Kurdish and I would just like to comment something...
Many of you here seem to be implying that we are admitting the genocide as shameful and saddening history simply because we have realized the wrongdoings of the Kurdish tribes who participated in the gross event against the Armenian people only after the Turks have committed wrongdoings against us. This is simply not true.
I am an active Kurdish-American in the Kurdish communities here in the States and in the Middle East, and believe me when I tell you that I have been to countless Kurdish events where Kurds have taken a moment to recognize the Armenian Genocide (even when no Armenians or non-Kurds were present at the events). We do so because we recognize the Armenian genocide as the single-most darkest and shameful point in our people's history. We do not wish to ask the Armenians for anything in return but for the simple acceptance of our apologies for the gross acts of the specific Kurdish tribes that collaborated with the Turks in that black page in not just our history or Armenian history, but in the history of the world. Kurds have remembered and condemned and will continue to remember and condemn the acts of the specific Kurdish tribes that took part in these events.
AND, might I add, there unfortunately still are Kurdish tribes that collaborate with the Turkish Stateto this very day against the Kurdish people. These collaboraters are who we (the larger Kurdish nation) regard as the descendants of the criminal Kurdish tribes that allied with the Young Turks in the early 20th century, ally themselves with the Turkish State today as well.
We hope that the Armenian people accept our continued recognition of such a dark page in history and we hope that one day, all our people (Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds and all others who have suffered in the region) can be freed from under the shadows of oppression that still plague the regions that both our peoples live today. Whether Van or Ararat is Armenia or Kurdistan tomorrow means nothing. What is meaningful for Kurds is that Van and Ararat see freedom one day and that the rich history of the region - a region that we lived peacefully together for many centuries before - is revived once again. Long live brotherhood between our peoples and we hope for a brighter and more hopeful future for us all.
Ketstse Eghbayrutyun / Biji birayetiya gelan
What is Obama’s Obligation to Armenians?
Let’s start with the bottom line. Whatever his commitment to Armenians it is secondary to his commitment to act in the best interests of the US. As an American, albeit of Armenian lineage, that is what I expect of him. Anyone who takes campaign statements as gospel just doesn’t understand the process. The commitments during campaigns are voluminous. They are about direction and intention. Once elected now the focus turns to making tradeoffs and implementation within a changing reality.
Turkey is an important part of the reconciliation process between Syria and Israel. Turkey has a role to play in supporting our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lack of cooperation from Turkey makes Iraq more difficult for the US and our troops. The relationship between the USA/West and Turkey is a demonstration that being a Muslim country doesn’t necessarily mean a hostile relationship to the West. Turkey being influential in the Caucasus helps the US offset Russia influence.
Does anyone really expect the President to put aside vital US interests to keep a campaign promise? The President had a difficult choice—a tradeoff between serving US interests and keeping a campaign promise. He is a pragmatist and a realist, and he made a predictable choice.
Sadly, American-Armenians, in blaming Obama for all this, are bashing the wrong pinata. They need to look behind the curtain and find exactly out who is putting pressure on him to ditch his prior support for Armenian issues, which I believe was sincere. As we all know, there are some very powerful, anti-Armenian forces working behind the scenes in the US. The answer to this problem lies there, not with Obama himself. No man is an island, and that includes Obama.
It is amazing to me that everybody who wrote a comment here (including the author of the article) have a doctoral degree in history, specifically concentrating on the Turkish-Kurdish-Armenian relationships. It is sad to see that all these people who are writing the comments are so brainwashed that they are not even considering the idea of an independent commission of historians determining the facts after reviewing all the records and the facts that are out there. The Armenian claim is that they think even the records might have been destructed or modified. So they are afraid that a multinational historians committee might not conclude the tragic events of 1915 the same way as Armenians have. This is of course quite scary for a nation who has relied heavily on convincing Turks and other nations on pronouncing and acknowledging the word "Genocide". There is clearly no other economical or social solution to today's Armenia's financial challenges. Whatever has happened in the past which might very well be a genocide, the decision on blaming an entire nation on such a terrible act should be based on more than the personal stories of a brainwashed clan of people but the facts. This is also valid for the stories we have been hearing from the other side of the fence. Such as the claims that Armenian's killed hundreds of thousands of Turks at the very beginning of these events. There needs to be a way to determine what has actually happened and that way is definitely not relying on some individuals' comments on the incidents. If we put history aside for a little bit, I wonder why Armenians are not fixing their current actions on the Azerbaijan issue. Everybody knows and acknowledges that Armenians have been killing Azerbaijanis and occupying their land for many many years. And we do not need a group of historians to get together to prove this because it is happening right now. So this question is for those only "peaceful" people of the Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian triangle. Why not first fix your mistakes and apologize for thousands of Azeris that you killed in the March of 1918 and for occupying their land right now? Do you think it is fair for you to demand any apology under these circumstances and under the assumption that your genocide claims are true and real. I am sorry that I could not support your story with my comment, just like many countries still have not (including the new government of USA). It is true however that many people died during those years. It is unbelievably sad to know this fact alone. But we all need to be very careful before we blame an entire nation (in the past and in the present) on something that might or not have happened. I invite all parties of this tragic conflict to agree on the historians determining the facts so we can all take a deep breathe and finally find closure. I do not know if my comment will be published or not (due to my opposition to the Armenian claims) but if it is published, I would like to wish all of you, peace and closure as soon as possible.
Is this called a discussion? :) There is not one single Turkish person who lived more than a summer vacation in Turkey. I guess this will be more like "Let's Talk Crap About Turks" tea party instead. Funny but sadly true at the same time :)
Hagop, don't you have any kind, loving words for G? He sounds so wonderful.
Of course they remember. They were taking part in the killings.
Did you expect more? You are all fools. The only president who ever used the words Armenian Genocide was a republican. He is going to hit all you doctors in the pocketbook as well. Next time research the man you vote for. Armenians are all religious and his strong pro abortion stance should have been enough to have you look at the other candidate. He is more concerned with muslim rights as his name suggests. How many of you speak Arabic? you should have known.
Actually, neither Turkmenistan nor Kazakhstan have agreed to Nabucco, and without their gas there will be no pipeline.
As an Armenian-American, I do not personally feel betrayed. I always took what Obama said with a grain of salt. I did support him and still do, but had the foresight to know that politics is politics and politicians will always promise things they cannot deliver on. It's a fact of life. All the people who are now up in arms, if you could, would you go back in time and vote for McCain? Do you really think McCain would do any better in terms of addressing the Genocide issue? I don't. Yes I am disappointed, but not terribly surprised with what has happened. At the very least, President Obama did say that his views had not changed. That's something. As long as Armenia has a prime minister who refuses to stand up for his people, we will be continue to be considered a "small tribe of uninportant people."
I definitely agree with your viewpoint. Armenia must not forget how many lives they have given to Turks, enough is enough.
When considering the effects of The United States' efforts in the Caucasus , "With friends like that, who needs enemies"?
Yes, yes and yes. This article says it all. This is what the reality is. Armenia needs to have an aggressive foreign policy, not a defeatist one.
Yes, the foreign policy of our country (USA) does support Turkey joining the EU. Then again, so does the current national leadership of Armenia and the previous Armenian administration.
Of course, opening the border to the west will help the Armenian economy. Armenia understands that--the USA understands that--Turkey understands that and so does Azerbaijan. That why Azerbaijan wants it kept closed. If Azerbaijan believed opening the border and normalization would be the ruination of Armenia--Azerbaijan would have freed Turkey from its commitment and the border would have been openned long ago.
In absence of evidence to the contrary, I am accepting the statements of Armenia's national leadership that they are not abandoning NK.
It seems to me, that Armenians in Armenia are for more supportive of opening the border and normalization with Turkey than those people of Armenian lineage living in California or Massachusetts or France etc.. Those recommending that the people of Armenia tough it out--ought to move their bravado to Armenia.
If the border opens and the Armenian economy strengthens, it is likely that diasporan dependence and influence will decrease. One can only wonder just how much this factor lies at the base of the objections from diasporan political factions to opening the border.
Keeping the border closed--keeping Armenia isolated--keeping Armenia a ward of diasporan genorsity and Russian economic support is the real formula for oblivion.
There is no economical or scientific research/studies had been done to see what would be the "real effect" of opening the boarders could bring to Armenian's economy, social life and for most important part "national security"!!!
When government of Turkey "still" is in active denial of "Genocide", Armenia "still" is engaged in active "war" with both eastern and western neighbors.
No data for let's say another 6 months exist for supporting the causes and the effects of "Boarder Opening"!...
I'm wondering if Armenia's government has any agenda on this important issue or they are governing a "country" on a "day-to-day" operation bases.
All Armenian organizations (including ANAC, Henchkina, ARF, Ramkaver) "MUST" be involved with this at highest level possible since looks like Armenia's officials have no clear vision.
Diaspora Armenians can't wait and love to see their home land refurnished with economical progress, but there is a price to be paid for. Also, Armenia's progress is less burden on Diaspora which then could focus on their own internal problems.
So, Mr. Garabedian, with all do respect, please be more sencetive on your analyses when it comes to our effoert, energy, money and time.
-Tom
Why is this such a grave disappointment for Armenians, as if such a thing has never happened before? Genocide recognition by the president of the US will not happen so long as Turkey remains an important ally in that region. It's out of President Obama's control--especially when he was running for office and promised to recognize the Genocide. It's not Obama's fault, it's the fault of the system put into place long before him by State Department policies to serve US interests. What choice did Armenians have, John McCain? Would he have done anything different? Of course not. It's not Obama's fault, give it up.
Let's focus on the Armenian leadership and point the finger of blame at them. They are the ones who are putting Armenia's long-term interests at risk and the Armenian cause in jeopardy of becoming irrelevant by building on the infamous "road map" that was signed on April 22. The Armenian leadership is working hard at opening the Turkish border--that will be detrimental to Armenia's future, namely its self sustainability and indeed, its culture. Genocide recognition by Turkey would never happen after that, because in the spotlight Europe and the US will applaud the Turkish authorities for opening the border and paving a road for a new future in Armenian-Turkish relations. Do we really want that to happen without having our due justice? If we don't, then let's put pressure on the Armenian government to stop giving in to pressure from the US, not to mention Turkey. Why are Armenians not making noise about the "road map" agreement? This issue is far more important right now than Obama going back on his word. Let's give Obama a break. He has three more chances to recognize the Genocide--who's to say that he won't?
garabedian, are you turkish or Armenian?
I'm not surprised but terribly disappointed. As a NON American Armenian i thought Obama was gonna be it but i blame that bloody turk Serge Sarkissian. i'm 99% sure he's either azeri or turkish. he's destroying everything every single Armenian in the world worked so hard for - recognition, understanding and explanation of why there are Armenians EVERYWHERE. He's the biggest culprit - i spit in his face
Armanen,
I am American by nationality--that is a citizen or national of the USA. Five generations of our family have lived in the US. Two generations were genocide survivors and 3 born here.
So, I am an American with Armenian lineage back to Khapert in Western Armenia.
None of which supports or detracts from the strength of the represented perspective.
Tom, is right about the lack of comprehensive studies about the economic impacts of opening the border. Generally, it is accepted that an increase in the flow of capital and goods stimulates the economy. I see no reason for this not to apply in Armenia.
I strongly doubt this is the right direction. And correct me if i am wrong, but during the current talks i haven't read anything about the Armenian government asking Turkey for land. but the current course of events should be unacceptable, at least in its current format. The govt. wants us to forget about the Genocide once and for all, to slowly slowly give up on Artsakh as well - you have to be blind not to see that Turkey is keen on kissing up to Azerbaijan and connecting the two issues - and ultimately Syunik as well - the press has been rather loud lately on how Azerbaijan set it's eye on Syunik in order to be able to connect to Nakhichevan, which they also stole from us. Whether you (and everybody else) admit this or not, this is what is expected from us.
Basicly, if you want your future to be good, stop barking, shut up and do what i order you to.
Is this the price you want to pay?
Are you 100% sure, beyond any doubt that this will work the way you expect it to...?
Do you think that DIGNITY, NATIONAL INTEREST(S) AND NATIONAL SECURITY should be put up for sale this easily?!
I hope not...
Cristina, my regrets for not writing more precisely. You are right-the government of Armenia is not asking for Turkey to surrender land. Some in the diaspora, not all, who object to opening the border--object to the current border and wish to extend it to the west. They want to see an Armenia with a Black Sea port and Western Armenia restored to Armenia. I think we have all read comments to that effect. So, opening the border between the two neighboring countries would imply acceptance of the border as the legal demarcation between Armenia and Turkey. Some individuals living comfortably and securely in western countries find it unacceptable for the government and people of Armenia to acknowledge the current border.
So, the comment about demanding Turkey to cede land to Armenia was directed to that perspective. Since Armenia disportionately gains from an open border demanding unrealistic concessions from Turkey seems to be self-destructive. Appropriately, Armenia has been clear that it will not go silent on the fact of the genocide nor surrender NK to gain the benefits of an open border.
The national security of Armenia requires a strong economy--An economy that can stand on its on without its continued existence dependent on Russian goodwill and diasporan cash tranfers. I can't see Armenia achieving national security while in a stranglehold from Turkey and Azerbaijan. Russia is too unreliable to be the outlet to the outside world. As we have seen from time to time when they shutdown Georgian ports and Armenia suffers greatly. The Armenian government seems to realize just how tenuous their situation. Disruption by Russia and a draw down in remittances from outside Armenia for a prolonged period will jeapardize the very existence of the country. Yes, there may be a rail outlet to Iran in five years but the outlet will be into an area of Iran inhabited by millions of Azeris-- that may not play out so well.
Obama's diplomacy should be taken into consideration. He confirmed that he had not changed his views. So why don't we, as Armenian-Americans, respond similarly?! We have not changed our views (Meaning that we still support him!) but we would pursue the path of pressuring the Congress to recognize the Armenian Genocide just like Canada, France, Switzerland and many other countries that have officially recognized it! On the other hand, we should not go against the normalization of relations by the Armenian Government with neighbouring Turkey which, I believe, is a well-studied political/diplomatic step forward and not a "Betrayal" as incorrectly interpreted by some! Let's take an attitude of leniency instead of displaying outright disappointment we shall never gain anything from!
H. Garabedian,
The above article does a fine job of illustrating the dangers of opening the borders without careful analysis of its ramifications on Armenian society, economy and national security. A few days ago an Armenian political scientist also gave an interview about the subject and reminded people that capital has no motherland, his point was that if we have open borders, some Armenian oligrachs (if not all) may decide to invest more in turkey since there is a bigger market there. This article also makes the same case, which is quite legitmate if one stops to think about it. In normal circumstances it would not be a big deal, but Armenia's region is not 'normal' and as long as turkey does not admit to Genocide (I'm not even talking about making reparations), and we have a cornered and even more barbaric neighbor to the east, Armenia can't believe that normal socio-political priciples apply to it.
I would advise you to talk a look at related articles here, if you have not done so already. http://www.ararat-center.org/index.php?p=30&l=eng
ARF Quits Armenia’s Governing Coalition
Good riddance to bad rubbish!
As an American I love Obama and everything he stands for. First few months of his presidency he is already involved broadly with all the issues relating to peace process worldwide, without taking sides unlike his precedents, including the Palestinian and Israeli issues. I am going to have to agree with his stand about the Armenian issue relating to genocide and the financial aid cut economically and militarily to Armenia.
Did it ever occur to you maybe during his visit to Turkey, he was presented with evidence and facts in regards to the Armenian genocide that might have changed his views, and later he regretted making comments in regards to the genocide during his campaign without researching it in details. Maybe he really wants to wait and see the results of the joint study being established between Armenia and Turkey.
As far as the financial and military aid cuts go, I certainly would understand why. We all know lately things between the US and Russia haven't been that well. We are on a head on collision course with Russia in regards to many foreign policies. Knowing the fact that Armenia and Russia are the closest ally in the region, it would not be a smart thing for us to help Armenia at this point. The fact is Yerevan doesn't rule Armenia, Moscow does. Of course Azerbaijan rightfully will be getting the bigger piece of the pie, since they are our only ally in the region and they want to help and support our interest in the region. If you ask me they should get four times the amount they are getting in terms of the financial and the military aid.
Second most important thing is occupation of Nagorno-Karabach. Armenia is the aggressor and occupier of the Nagorno-Karabakh region. Just because ethnically Armenian 140,000 people want to self govern themselves within Azerbaijani territory it doesn't give Armenia right to unjustly occupy foreign lands. There are about 600,000 Armenians live here in Los Angeles County and I would really like to see Armenians try to establish an independent Armenian State here in Southern California. Does that make any sense to you. More and more people are learning about the issues relating Armenians everyday and finding out facts that are presented by Armenians actually aren't the facts at all. I for once always felt for Armenians and always defended and supported their agenda as far as the genocide issue goes, but reading a little about it and doing a few minute researches made me question a few things.
I refuse to sit here and read Armenian Media bad mouthing the president we loved, supported and elected with difficulties after many years of mismanagement. I hope you would understand and publish my opinions in regards to this... Thank you!!!
I don't agree with any of the scenarios this article points out. The economy just doesn't play out as described in the article. Many examples can be found with a little research. Yes it is true that the traffic will be mostly one way from Turkey to Armenia. With the heavy traffic there comes major capital, investments, projects, constructions and credits. If turkey wants to capitalize on the Armenian market first they have to increase the buying power of the consumer there. Banks will provide credits, Turkish companies will have to invest in distribution centers, service centers, constructions, manufacturing facilities, and factories to cut down on transportation costs etc. Real estate values will double if not triple in the main areas. Do you think people from Turkey will relocate to Armenia to take advantages of all the jobs these activities will create, I don't think so. Unemployment will be the lowest Armenia historically ever experienced. People will make more money than they ever did and they will turn around and spend it by buying things. If Turkey and Armenia establishes strong ties with trust where neither side is worried about investing in each other, I believe Armenia can quadruple its GDP under 10 years. You can see many examples of this scenario studying other regions.
The arguement "Turkey is an important ally and therefore Obama is off the hook because we don't want to offend an important ally" is extremely weak. Throughout history, countries have openly offended others without. Ronald Reagan, in the face of extreme dissent among his own party and countrie around the world, risked a far greater international crisis when he stood face to face with the Soviet Union Prime Minister and told him to "tear down that wall." And actions following ultimately led to Armenia being free of Soviet rule, but I digress.
The point is, the acts of the Turks are too serious a matter for President Obama to go, "Well, I'm trying diplomacy." Diplomacy and lying by our president don't go well, together. Obama is spineless and weak-willed. In spite of being in charge of the most powerful country in the world, he is afraid of Turkey for some reason. Previous leaders were not.
I am ashamed of those Armenians posting here who are openly give Obama some leeway on this issue. You are no different than the president of Armenia himself with his selling of his soul to the Turks. Shame on you too! Go do something useful and voice your extreme dissapointment and threaten his reelection prospects on these grounds.
Jason,
You are using a model that would seemingly work in the case of two normal countries and in a much less hostile region, not just in relations to Armenia but the conflict in Georgia and the Russian Caucasus. What you say may be an outcome, but the point is that based on the geopolitical nature of the Caucasus, there should be an in depth study made by the RA government before we consider opening up the border with turkey. And this isn't even getting into the issue of turkish violation of international law by closing the borders, or the legality of the Kars Treaty, etc.
There are few Armenians that wouldn't want Armenia's economy to develop the way you outlined above, but it's a very complex issue and the RA government, if it has not done so already, needs to do research and make it available to the public before any border openings.
Dear Jason,
Many of your grammatical errors are similar to those made by Turks and Turkish Americans. If you are not a member of one of these two groups and don't want to be mistaken for one, perhaps you should have someone proof read your comments.
And, if you "refuse to sit here and read Armenian Media...." all the better. No one is waiting to read your nonsense anyway.
I guess our friend Mr. Jason Kopeczk with much of regret lives in Disney Land or very smart individual, which in my opinion the second one, is more valid.
What do you mean by saying “If Turkey and Armenia establishes strong ties with trust where neither side is worried about investing in each other” Are we talking about regional politics or a local college football game! Since when, and please illuminate us with examples in that region when “Political Trust” worked! You need to study the region history, politics, economics and politics before getting to investment and banking. Armenia’s main and always MUST #1 issue should be “National Security” then life and health of the people of Armenia, as well as on the prospect of sustainable development for the country will follow.
Again, I can't be more agreeing with the main article and follow-up of Armanen, excellent analysis. If, we learn to listen and learn, willingness to respect our differences, in addition to educating ourselves and others, then we are in the path of salvation.
Thank you ALL for sharing your opinion since it adds to my knowledge.
Also I like to share recent article written on "economist" magazine, if you have not seen it already:
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13577983&source=hptextfeature
Jack will be sorely missed. He was a tremendous inspiration to me and so many of my peers - Jack epitomized dedication, commitment, principled leadership and pure love for the Armenian Cause and the Armenian American community. I only hope some in our generation can even come close to carrying the torch.
Finally a decent comment on this website that is objective. Jason, a Turk or not, definitely gets my congratulations on his brave comment. He might have changed his name to write on this website probably because nobody wants the slight possibility of ever getting harassed by the Armenian diaspora. It is scary to even bring up a remotely controversial topic on the table of such a "subjective" audience. The funny thing is that the only follow up comment that Jason received after his, is the one by an individual who critiques Jason's grammatical errors (??!!??) thus claiming that he might be a Turk. And what if he is? Who gives a heck? He still makes a lot of sense to me.
Harut, I find 2 trends particularly upsetting: 1) the turks stepping up their denial efforts--making them even more aggressive and farfetched. A lie repeated often enough becomes accepted. This is what seems to be happening.
2) the number of idiotic Armenians who "welcome" the blasphemous comments of these liars. It's quite disheartening.
Jason's first out-and-out lie (or exaggeration) has got nothing to do with Armenians: "he is already involved broadly with all the issues relating to peace process worldwide, without taking sides unlike his precedents, including the Palestinian and Israeli issues."
The latter part of his rant is so racist that yes -- he should be glad it was actually allowed to be published here (and I think I know why).
Jason, please continue your "few minute researches," and report back A.S.A.P.! We would love to hear what you have learned!
I read Antranig's comments. I don't know if there is anyone who can carry's U. Jack's torch. He was a community leader - a man who united so many parts of our community - a man respected by so many persons. I am thankful I had the chance to get to know as well as learn from him. He is one AYF'er who will be missed. Asdvadz Hokin Looysavoreh.
I knew Jack for many years as part of a group who played tennis at the Upper Dublin Tennis Club.
Once I got to know him from tennis, we eventually discussed many subjects, including sports and the stock market.
Jack was smart and funny -- and an excellent tennis player.
I pray that he finds eternal peace.
The economist is over rated and has a pro turk bias. I do not pay much attention to what they have to say. At one time they were a libertarian newspaper, now it's something else.
I am not going to send an email to Clearchannel.
At UC Santa Barbara, the Anti-Defamation League is on the rampage against a Professor Robinson who sent a strong email out to his students criticizing Israel.
Yet, I do not see any Armenian out there in California telling UCSB that the ADL, because of its denial of the Armenian genocide, has no moral right to come onto campus to criticize Robinson.
This is especially the case because a year ago the Armenians at UCSB campaigned against the ADL and its "No Place For Denial" program on campus.
Armenians should join in and defend Robinson against the ADL. That is a lot more important than sending emails to Clearchannel over some silly comment.
Fein and Wexler sittin' in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G.
you can NOT in any way classify Bill's show as 'right wing'...that's so far from the truth it's laughable...Bill's FOR a woman's right to choose, FOR gay marriage, FOR universal health care and a host of other issues that some would consider 'left wing'...then once you try classifying him as 'left wing' consider his stand FOR the death penalty, AGAINST higher taxes and again, a host of other issues that would probably classify him as 'right wing'.. truth is, he's a little of both, but mostly down the middle.
nice! i'm gonna make my own journal
Can we classify it as stupid?
Hakop, Every person has the right to disrespect anyone who they really want to. In the case of Arpi, why would she respect those who killed her ancestors and to this day deny the world-wide known fact??? I'm an English Jew and I have studied Armenian history for 8 years in the University of Oxford, England. I have done years of research on the Armenian Genocide.... let me tell you Armenians, you know very little of what happened to your nation. It's worse than what you guys think. To this day, there are many countries that want to get rid of the Armenians becuase they are smart, intelligent and capable of governing the entire world. Yes, every country knows that Armenians are capable of doing so. That's why they try to get rid of you guys. Armenian Genocide is a FACT!!!! and soon this will even be recognized by the Turkish government. Take my word for it becuase I know so. It's too late for the Turks to deny it............ it's very late! Armenians, let the Turks talk and write as much as they want since all they do is advertising. The entire world knows about the Armenian Genocide, so any comments by Turks will be an advertisement by them :) (they don't get this). hahah
Just want to let you guys know that MANY JEWS LOVE ARMENIANS!!!!!
Thank you John Kaplan. Sounds like you've been reading T.E. Lawrence who said the Armenians were the smartest people in the world and that's why the Turks kill them. At any rate, among the faults of the Armenians is trying to be overly fair at all costs. Sometimes it actually clouds their reasoning--eg Hagop. I suppose it should not be surprising that so many Turks and Turks using non-Turk names follow the Armenian press and post comments denying the genocide here. What is surprising is folks like Hagop applauding them and criticizing folks like me.
John, you have no idea how welcome your post is for many reasons. Wish there were more folks like you.
I agree with the opinion stated above. Out of one 1.5 million Armenian-Americans there must be one capable leader to challenge the issues in the next presidential election in 2012? Never vote for either political party, they are both Zionist and pro-Turkish in nature; they always have been and will continue to do so to serve their interests.Signed,Armenian-Canadian from the Great White North.
Armenians like Arpi, like Turks, are also capable of using non-Armenian (and apparently Jewish) names.
Ask yourself why the President visited Turkey so early in his administration; reneged on his solemn promise to recognize the 1915 genocide; cut aid to Armenia by 38 % and has Senator Kerry speaking at a Turkish organization. Could it be that this Administration's solution to the Pakistan/ Iran
problem is to embrace the creation of a pan-Turkic "empire" similar to that which was envisioned by the Young Turks?
If there are not enough Armenian Americans available to staff the camp, why not hire Armenians from Armenia? I have met numerous Armenians from Armenia working in American resort towns during the summer. I am certain that qualified staff could be recruited from Armenia. The presence of native Armenian staff would certainly enrich and strengthen the campers Armenian experience as well as benefit the native Armenian staff during these difficult economic times. Even more importantly, having native Armenian staff provides yet another avenue for strengthening the ties between the diaspora and the Homeland.
I agree with all of you regarding the US attitude, do not even think to vote for a President as all of them tell you one thing before the election to get your vote and change their mind after being elected, they are not like "us" the Armenians who trust and want others to do the same, they continue to say "our national interest" and avoid "THE TRUTH" about the genocide by giving the ok to the Turkish government for what they did .
The only way we can do to protect ourselves is to be united and be a strong nation to be able to say NO to other countries that put pressure on us to give away our values and forget the children that were killed because they were Christians, lets not forget their memory ,never,never,never.
Let us think about the gist. How we (Zazas, Kurds and Armenians) could manage to live together in the same land in the past. What reason could impose us to separate? Did we betray one another? Or did just Turanists (some nationalist Turks who aim to create a country called Turan) manage to separate us. .......
The book "The Kurds" published by Oxford University Press writes that Armenians murdered six hundred thousand Kurds during the world war. Explain that before talking about sharing grief.
One approach is to contact all the programs advertisers, let them know you won't buy their products and why...if you listen to that program you know who its sponsors are...see how fast that gets results!
The particular clip was probably removed from the website because it could create negative attention towards Turkey. There's lots of eyes and ears out there.
The Jews used to say an expression, 'the friend of my enemy is my enemy," the Armenians can and should say it too. There are Jews in strong positions who threaten Armenian interests, Abe Foxman (for one) and I'd guess Bill Handel too...who happens to have the benefit of the radio to quickly spread thought, be it his or perhaps others.
I agree with Serouj and I think it is not right to point our fingers to Kurds in general when we address the issue of their involvement in Armenian Genocide. I met a lot of Kurds some of them don't even know about Armenian Genocide. We need to take into consideration that Kurds do exist in Syria, Iran and Iraq and had nothing to do with Armenian Genocide. Also, I had many chances to meet Kurds from Turkey who know the history well and they recognize the mistake of their involvement in killing Armenians. Lets not forget that not all Kurdish nation took part in the Armenian massacres, on the contrary they did protect Armenians and some of them fought with us against the Turks. They fought along side with Antranig Pasha in 1918, and recently Yezidy Kurds fought along side with Armenians in Karapagh against Azeris,Arab Moujahedines and Chechens.
Our history with Kurds goes long way, we have influenced each other's culture and tradition. Try to listen to ethnic Kurdish music or watch their ethnic dance "shurch bar" and you can tell how close they are to ours.
By the way there is a Kurdish newspaper called "Soma", the editor is Armeian.
Well most Armenian/American's did it again by their one sided support of Obama! I for one saw it coming. Let's once and for all come truly together as one voice from coast to coast and form an ad/hock committee to make a difference.
Thank you for a fantastic story about a remarkable person. I am grateful for the service to our community rendered by Pete Jelalian for over three decades. He is a role model for all generations.
Seto Boyadjian writes "Armenian traditions and culture that inspire and teach the Armenian individual—whether in Armenia or the diaspora—love, friendship, brotherhood, and peace. Not a single Armenian person sees an enemy in a Turkish person".
It must be that the killings of four Turkish consuls in America, the beating of Turkish students and raids of their meetings, threats against professors who are against the "Armenian genocide" brainwashing were done in this vein of "love, friendship, brotherhood, and peace". It must also be that all the hate messages we see on the Internet belong to Turks posing as Armenians to make the Armenians look bad.
No disparaging remarks about this conference cum panel discussion are necessary nor warranted. This discussion will have much more relevance to the truth than many conferences and other meetings that have been held in Turkey where freedom of speech has been severely restricted under heavy government censorship, and still is limited under anti-democratic legislation.
In the 21st Century, a person does not need to live in a country in order to do research on aspects of that country such as laws and cultural features. So G's remarks here have little value if any at all. Who is G, is this a lobbyist for the government of Turkey?
Perhaps Mr. Ungor and Ms. Ayata have relatives in Turkey who might be persecuted because of what these two academics say and write. Speaking truth to power is never a totally safe thing to do, and people should appreciate anyone who does -- anyone who is courageous enough to do so gets my praise.
Whoever ACTUALLY believed Mr. Obama was just a fool in the first place
USUAL story in Democrat/Republican biz in USA. Democrats good for local (i.e. U.S.) economy BAD for foreign policy (e.g. Genocide recognition etc.); Republicans good on foreign policy BAD for U.S. economy. Nothing has changed. Personally, I don't know if even an American of Armenian origin in the White House would do differently than Obama because of so-called Turkey's geopolitical/military "importance" for NATO.
You guys don't get it. These idot radio channels and their moron hosts are counting on you getting upset. More upset you get, more emails you send, more phone calls you make happier they are. Like Bill didn't know what kind of cord he is touching. The best way to hurt these guys is turn the dial and never go back again.
Making a complaint to the FCC so the station gets fined is a better idea.
Here is the link.
https://esupport.fcc.gov/sform2000/formE!input.action?form_page=2000E
Yes let's do nothing...great idea Zohrab.
Fred's causes are more important than anyone elses yet he takes the time to write that he won't write....very intelligent.
The calls and emails are already working, KFI has taken down the podcasts of the shows because of a few phone calls and emails. Imagine what would would happen when large amounts of calls and emails go in. Haikaz your idea is right on.
"If you don’t fight for your rights somebody will come take them away
It’s very simple; your rights are those things that you fight for.
If you don’t believe them to be worth fighting for, don’t be surprised when somebody takes them away."
Salman Rushdie
Erdoghan announcement although of course welcome, the Armenians, and the Armenian Government in particular, must be careful not to confuse this Erdoghan announcement addressed mainly to his domestic and European audiences with anything remotely close to a genuine apology and atonement for the crime of Genocide committed by the Ottoman and its successor Turkish states against the Armenians and other Christian/minority peoples of the Ottoman Empire.
As Harout Sassounian correctly points out, Erdoghan is involved in a political life and death struggle with the Deep State who are the real masters of Turkey today. However as far as the Armenian Genocide and the overall Pan-Turkist anti Armenian policy of the Republic of Turkey is concerned the various factions are as united and are speaking with one voice as the Abdul Hamid and Young Turk regimes were. Make no mistake as we have been there before, in 1908-15.
Turkey has no incentive to change this racist Turkish nationalist anti Armenian policy, as Nazi Germany could not be persuaded to do away with its brand of racism. Likewise it is highly naive for anyone to believe that Armenia will be able to deal with Turkey in its current form - in the same way that it would be inconceivable to believe that a (God forbid!) surviving Nazi German state could deal fairly with a crushed polish state to its east or that such imaginary states could or would have any relations based on fairness and equality; quite the contrary the “relation” would have been one of complete dominance and aggression on the one side and submission and meekness on the other - exactly as they are between Turkey and Armenia today.
It follows therefore that “the international community” has a duty to dismantle and destroy the xenophobically racist nationalist Republic of Turkey and completely de-Nazify it before its immediate neighbours - Armenia in particular, Cyprus, Greece and the Kurds, etc. - and even Europe in the long term could feel safe. The real terrorist time-bomb is slowly ticking in Ankara and unless the great powers defuse and destroy it no one should feel safe or satisfied.
Armenia must be doubly careful and vigilant not only because she has already experienced the fall-outs from Ottoman-Turkish in-fighting between its various faction repeatedly (Turkish “democratisation” from above and under foreign/European pressure) but because it is facing the pan-Turkist plague from both Turkey as well as Azerbaijan who pursue a unified policy of wiping out the Republic of Armenia and a hardly viable Armenian statehood on a minor strip of land that, despite all the odds, has survived centuries of Turco-Tatarist organised massacres, repression, deportations and eventual genocide and permanent extermination campaigns in the last one hundred years.
I would like to get in touch with families who lost their great grandpartents during the genocide in Tekirdag. Few members of my family survived and I am trying to put some pieces together and find their houses and visit the city.
Nazarian article reads enemies mind;
This article every Armenian must read
From West to East
We were simple and kind
Armenian honesty not in every nation… found
We should not believe every thing has been said
We can be thrown out like dust on the breezy waves.
See President Obama how he changed
See how Syrians became their friends
Their films are invading Arabs Hearts
Although Syrians poets have published unbelievable articles
Against northern enemies in the past!
Bogus article.
If this is true, then she seriously has a adoption addiction. Why keep having kids and adopting when your paying nannies to care for them?
Erdogan's remarks have been possible precisely for the opposite reason, the deep state, Atatürk, are being thrown into the dustbin of history. In the current state of affairs, they are like the envelope dearer than the content.
I thought at least one of the adoptive parents had to be Armenian to adopt an Armenian child.
I am announcing the secret agenda of the Republic of Turkey.
In order to achieve the one of the last steps of the PanTurkist Empire all over the world, Turks understood the importance of addressing to the hearts of Arabs. Since this last step can not be performed by tanks and helicopters, by using the advantage of the Ottoman heritage , Turks are manipulating decent and naive Arabs and make them think that Turks are ordinary people who fall in love, who work to make a living and etc. The film industry secretly funded by the evil of the evils Turkish governments is the perfect tool to accomplish this task namely invading Arabs' Hearts.
Even though the people in the world believe that Turks are human just like themselves, this is not the case at all. Turks literally do not sleep, do not eat and of course do not possess any of the human attributes we humans have. Their master plan is wiping Armenia off the map together with the human civilization. Believe it or not, the only thought in the minds of the today's Turks is the destruction of the Armenian nation.
Someone needs to stop Turks for the good of mankind.
Regards
I know I'm not supposed to believe that there is anything honest behind Erdogan's statements but it's something. Maybe some turks will listen to what he said and start being a little bit more open about learning the truth about what their people did to every minority that ever lived in Turkey. I really hope this is a real step forward, but my hope is fleeting.
When my husband and I looked into adopting an Armenian baby, we were told one of the parents had to be of Armenian descent. There was a great deal of red tape involved. Though we did not have the money to adopt. I am alarmed that Jolie will be allowed to adopt. I guess money talks!!!!!
Zvart
Armenian babies should only be allowed to be adopted by at least having one of parents being of Armenian descent!!!!!!
Zealot Turkish nationalists, Azeri Nationalists, and Armenian nationalists all want the negotiation and normalization dialogue between Armenia and Turkey to end. Strange bedfellows indeed. In the case of Turkish zealots and Azeris the motivation is obvious-keep a stranglehold on Armenia to retard its economic development and the process of democratization. They want to see Armenia weaken vis-a-vis Azerbaijan to the point where it has no choice but to make concessions. I find it difficult to accept one can be both pro-Armenia and pro-blockade.
I am very sorry for your loss. Please accept my condolences. I have been looking for an old college friend of my mother whose name is Rose Garabedian, and was a graduate of Nursing School in Sacramento California around the year 1948.
I never heard of the word halig in Turkey. I do not think it is Turkish in origin.
Shushan, you'd rather have children living in an orphanage than have parents that love them?
The government changed the rule but put in a provision about adoptive parents helping to educate the child about his or her heritage.
And, more importantly, tThere are many more children in orphanages in Armenia than could ever be adopted by ethnic Armenians. And adoption is prohibitively expensive for most families (about US$30,000 when all is said and done).
It is actually one of the 99 names of god in Qur'an. In Ottoman Turkish, it means the creator.
I was pleased to know that Angelina wants to adopt an armenian baby. It is not only to make somebody's life happy, but also that she is a very known person and very good advertised. May be more people will know about Armenia by asking why armenian baby and who are armenians, and whwre is Armenia. I think.
For G. written on the 16th of May 2009, submitted 5.55 pm.
If and when you open this page, please be kind to read the following in answer to your very wrong comments.
I see your response is written in good English, I am sure you are not a new immigrant in this part of the world. Are you not one of the rented fingers to muddy the reality? Let me remind you:
First, ask yourself why did Garry Kasparov the Chess champion run away from Baku under heavy guard. He is born in Baku, he speaks and writes in Azeri, he was the pride of Azerbayjan before the collapse of Soviet Union. Suddenly what happened that, the Azeries do not remember him.
Second, do You remember Sumgayit atrocities committed by Azerbaijanies against the Armenians? Do you?, or you have no memory at all. Do you want me to write it (it will be a very long list) down? do you suffer from amnesia? or intentionally you pretend it didnot happen.
If you are a human being, not only shame on you but shame to all your compatriots. In Armenian there is a curse which is hardly used as it is very degrading,and I have not used it at all during my long life, as I am an old woman, who used to volunteer for peace keeping, but in YOUR case I am going to use it."LET THE WOMB OF THE WOMAN THAT BROUGHT YOU TO THIS WORLD BE BARREN." You are arrogant, ignorant, cruel and useless being. With all your intentions and nice words for peace, you even deny to yourself self forgiveness and understanding of the whole situation. Do you know your history? Your recent history. Do you want me to remind you? I do not have doctorate degree and I am not pretending something I am not. My heart is full of sadness not revenge. Look into the mirror, look to see what your eyes say. As a human being, show some humiliation. Remember the Koran? or you are one of Godless zombies, who has no shame and no conscious.
What a shame, there are so many irrelevant beings like you in this world.
Why do you deny to yourself repentance and
Why do you deny to yourself repentance and find an excuse to clear your soul. But as usual it seems you deny even to yourself the smallest gesture of self examination.
I have met very conscientious although very few Azeries in Baku, who have apologised for all recent and historical wrong doings of their country men. I respect and honour them, though they were afraid to say loud. In the orient there is a proverb which says ' do not dig a hole for others, you will drop dead into it.' I wish you well when you are in that hole.
I am astonished that all of you are so anxious for US to condemn Turkey. I wish they will pull and push - US and Turkey for another ten years, and loose more credibility.
Today's Urban Turk is a kinder gentler species of the former. Look to their faces, which one of them look like the Mongol/Tatar/Uzbec/Dajig conglomeration. All the women Armenian, Kurdish, Circasian, Assiryan and others kidnapped and forcibly confined, to obey to the whims of their captives, has made them a gentler less violent species. Somehow, one day the reality will dawn on them. It will be very hard for the masses to accept the lies of their government, and riots will brake up. I am waiting for that day.
Empires have come and gone, they are passing too. We have to be vigilant and take advantage when the opportunity comes, to get not only Nakhichevan and the 3 vilayets, but some part at the black sea which according recent history is ours.
Do you think I am dreaming? not at all. With BRAIN and science manoeuvring we CAN DO.
I cannot believe I am reading this nonsense here, about the Armenians being the smartest people in the world. If that was the case how come after over 600 years of Ottoman rule you were not able to learn that uprisings and killings of the Ottoman Turks in the area was going to lead to this slain. Knowing the history of Turks this was inevitable and could have been avoided easily.
Also, if Armenians are smart enough to govern the world how come they cannot even govern a tiny country with a population of 3 mil.
Jason, take it up with T. E. Lawrence. And find another ethnic newspaper to use as your braying ground.
Hagop, what is your problem and what are you talking about. Armenians like Arpi are capable of using non-Armenian names? Are you out of your mind? do you think I'm posing as Jason Kopeczki or John Kaplan? I was as startled as I can only assume you were by Kaplan's post, but if you are suggesting I posted it under his name...maybe you should find another ethnic paper to use as a braying ground. Or if not an ethnic one, perhaps one for the insane. You are not well.
Very nice article. But I think you missed a few things on the march 2004 riots:
- the murder of the Serb kid happened they day before the drownings. The kid was shot in Caglavica on the road from Pristina to Macedonia from a passing car. Serbs reacted by blocking the road. It led to increased ethnic tensions that were exploited in the drownings hysteria where it sometimes was suggested that it was Serb revenge for this killing.
- the kids were nearly certainly not chased into the water by Serbs. This is the international consensus. At that time the Albanian media published a lot of conflicting stories about what had happened. Albanian poiticians only contributed to the national hysteria. One version held it that the kids had been driven in the water by a Serb with a dog. It may be that they just panicked: their village is an Albanian enclave in the Serb dominated north and they were on the other side of the Ibar river near a Serb village. It may also be that the kids were just naughty and the surviving kid found bad Serbs the best excuse. A final possibility is that it was an accident that has been deliberately exploited to start widespread anti-Serb violence. Actually I think that is the most probably version. There was a lot of hearsay, but no clear statements. The UN incomprehensibly decided not to start an immediate investigation but instead to wait "until the moods were calmed". There was never a follow-up on the drownings in the form of police investigations and arrests. Many of the stories appeared to be false. And the father was a KLA activist.
- the 8 Albanians killed in Mitrovica were killed while trying to enter Northern Mitrovica. Had they succeeded Northern Mitrovica now would be 100% Albanian and Serb-free.
- many hundreds of Serb houses were destroyed - not a single church. Thousands ended in exile.
The UN said the story of a Serbian dog chasing the kids to the river was unfounded. The kids were likely playing in a swollen, thawing creek and slipped. The alleged survivor boy wasn't even injured or hospitalized for hypothermia, and his was a KLA soldiers son. He was big on the news inflaming and blaming the Serbs.
Some in the UN said that attacks on Serbs were being prepared, so this gave them an excuse to do it earlier. The attacks were on key areas and were systematic. Albanians were bused in and the UN and NATO mostly didn't stop them.
The Greek soldiers did try to prevent the burning of a Serbian monastery, but they were severely injured (burned) and were unsuccessful.
At least one Albanian was killed by a policewoman working for the international community because the Albanian was shooting at them. There were injuries among some American policewomen and they wrote about it in local articles when they got back. Much what happened was covered up.
Also, you make no mention of the Roma which were systematically burned out of southern Mitrovica after the war and now still live in camps in Kosovo. The Roma were also attacked, along with Serbs, during the 2004 riots.
Kosovo, everyone figured, would be the bookend of the Balkan crisis that occurred in Bosnia,” he said of the war’s origins. “You knew it was going to happen. I was there in ‘98 and I remember that the KLA were these very young guerrillas . Thats funny because the state department stated that the kla were terrorists in1998,so what were you doing with terrorists mr Fleishman?The Un and even US generals such as Charles Boyd,stated that the albanian exodus started after the nato bombing started,so the "humanitarian war" rally cry is a lie.No matter how you try to paint it,nato's actions were by world law criminal. Its also incredible that you say milosevic's manipulations but do a piece on biden.Maybe you should explain why biden,tom lantos,joe dioguardia lobbyed so hard for the albanians(cash).Joe biden also said all serbs should be in concentration camps,very human of him.God bless Serbia.
Wow very informative historical events. Nice artical, I was wondering after all the effort our leders demonstrated with CUP,What other options was left on the table for the Armenians living in Turky. Thank you.
V M.
Hello,
Can you please precise what are the sources used in this article
"ARF-CUP Relations Under Ottoman Constitutional Rule"
by Dikran Kaligian
best regards,
Jean Varoujan Sirapian
You can get a detailed description of all sources used in the author's newly-published book "Armenian Organization and Ideology under Ottoman Rule: 1908-1914." The author's main source, though, as he tells us in the introduction, are the ARF archives in Boston.
Kecce Mr. And Mrs. Vahe and Aida Yeghiazarian ev nranc ognognern, ayn mardiq, voron sksel en haskanal te lurj gorts anelu hamar petq e stegtsel lurj kazmakerpytyun, amen mard anum e ir gotsn skzbunqov:
Hajogutyyun Bolorid:
Texn. git. teknatsu, "MTORUM" mshakuytayin lragri hratarakich` Aslamazyan A. K.
Anahit jannnn I completely agree with you!!! Hopefully our country will be heard more often and will not be mistaken with Albania or Romania!! But im slightly confused to how the adoption agency or the goverment will allow this process to go ahead considering their is no Armenian background in any of the parents. It will be interesting if they allow this!!
But like they say money can buy you anything. So i guess good luck to them.
While money can buy most things... It sure cannot by helth and happiness.
Childern need home, and they need someone to care about them.
If Brad and Angelina want to adopt a child from Armenia... I think it's a great thing for our country, and for that poor child (who was unwanted by his/her parents for some reason).
Jack Papazian will always be remembered as a staunch AYFer, and strong Gomideh member of the ARF. We would touch base yearly at the Armenian Youth Federation Olympic Games and talk of our memorable days in the AYF. God Bless him and his wife and family. Steve Dulgarian
By Nazareth:
Adopting a child is not only parenting him.
It will have to be given an Armenian soul to child too.
They must think of getting an Armenian nanny too.
Why doesn’t she give money to raise one while in foster house?
Together with all other Armenian babies child will be happier to grow.
Adapting child is giving a baby even more pain reminding of his real parents.
Why Angelina and brad are trying to emphasize their superiority?
Don’t remove the child from his happy place of childhood,
Do not isolate him from his friends!
It’s a shame that Armenians can not support their foster home needs and babies who lives in them. Let them adapt a child from Georgia or Azerbaijan.
Unwanted by his/her parents for some reason? What planet are you from? I would bet everything I own that the parent/parents of that child would rather have poked out their own eyes than to place their beloved child, their own flesh and blood, in an orphanage. Where ever you are, you must be living a comfortable life. Evidently you cannot even imagine the despair some of our brothers and sisters in Armenia face on a daily basis. As my grandmother used to say, dzainuh dak deghitz g' gah.
It looks like the ARF is settling in and getting very comfortable with being an opposition force. The same type of voting irregularities occured when the ARF was part of the winning coalition for the presidency they accepted the legitmacy of those elections. If the ARF is to become anything more then a footnote it better reevaluate its message. Because right now nobody is listening.
very true, very interesting, very well expressed! I very much enjoyed it Lalai, keep it up!
I think Angelina has an undiscovered psychological disorder--she is either pregnant all the time or is adopting. I have 2 kids and can hardly could keep up with them. I wouldn't want to see an Armenian child suffering in a supposedly "happy" family like theirs, where both parents travel much, don't have a stable home or can't be in the same country, school for the kids for a long period of time.
I personally feel bad for all of Angelina's children. I would rather see an armenian orphan in a deserving family abroad.
Then there's always the kiss she planted smack dab on her brother's mouth. Can't forget that. That's a wonderful tradition that could be introduced into the Armenian culture. This is tongue in cheek of course, mine, that is. Well, actually, I guess it was theirs too.
Ahhh, a breath of freash air. Opennes and borderless. Lalai, your instincts and your voice are bang on! I hope this column is well read and distributed.
Congratulations on being 'YOU'... we are all greatful and lucky.
Cheers!
Elize
The concept of beads is insightful and the tone of your thoughts bright and lively. And beautiful name, Lalai. The beauty of the beads is in their veriaty and the fact that each is formed under different environmental conditions; exposure, pressures, depth of origin etc. that define their color, texture and complexity. While they seem scattered there is an invisible string loosely keeping them together. The string is what drives you to write what you have written. There is no such thing as an optimal number or critical mass of parameters that determine "Armenianness" or any "otherness". History, culture, homeland, and language are all resources that you can absorb to the extant of your breath. The measure is individual enrichment and complexity. Learn to be and be all you can.
I have another recommendation to add! I just bought this book “Young Guns” for my son who just graduated from college. I got it on amazon.com but you can probably get it at any major bookstore. My son is SO LAZY but after he read this he realized what it takes to become successful. Now, he’s taking initiative, being proactive, and working his way up! I recommend this book :)
@Feegee
Please stop pretending as if you represent all armenians. Ana is an armenian and partially so am I (the other part is jewish, yeh that's right double genocide). I support fully Ana's view here and perhaps I am even more forgiving. This genocide happened 100 years ago and Armenia has way bigger problems at the moment, for example the terrible relations to practically all their neighbors. Making amends with the turks would be very valuable. I am sure they will acknowledge the crimes of some of their ancestors in due time. Until then the armenian people need to stop harboring this disgusting thinly veiled racism I see in some of the comments above and reconsider their priorities.
I don't care what other connotations Young Turks has (progressive revolutionaries or whatever), as long as it was the Young Turks who planned and executed the genocide, using the term, even for it's positive connotation, is the same as using the term Nazi or Storm Trooper. Jenk is progressive. I agree with him on 99.9% of what he says. They still need to change the name of the show.
Just wondering if greywoods feels the same way about his Jewish part: [they] need to stop harboring this disgusting thinly veiled racism...and reconsider their priorities. Just asking.
I should have written Cenk, not Jenk. My mistake.
Eric,
I have never noticed jews acting this way. Jews do not hate on germans in this way as far as I know.
While I admit The Young Turks is a slightly unfortunate name, do remember it has other meanings. "Nazi" has only one meaning.
Wow, Arpi, why the hostility? You don't care to mention all the humanitarian work she's done, all the attention she's brought to third-world countries, but you mention an overblown kiss?
As, what, a reason a child in Armenia--who statistically, will end up poor and hungry and alone, and quite possibly turn to prostitution, once she's released from the system at 18--shouldn't have a good life? A chance at something better?
No hostility whatsoever. Just an observation. Wow, Nairi, why so jumpy?
You're kidding right. First of all, the Jews have had justice (as much as there can be justice for such a thing), recognition, and reparations. They have used the Holocaust as a free pass to do whatever they want to the Palestinians... and you dare criticize the Armenians? Pretty amazing. I wonder if you really are half Armenian.
I do not support what the jews are doing in Isreal. Nevertheless, what they are doing is abuseing the PALESTINIANS not the germans, so your analogy fails completly. Yes the jews got "justice". But that is irrelevant as you asked me, if I tell the jews the same thing I tell the armenians. And the jews do not act the same way towards the germans as the armenians do towards turks. An across the broad hatred of turks IS COMMON AMONG MANY ARMENIANS. This is called racism. This is unacceptable. None of the people who took part in the genocide exist anymore. What is going on NOW is not comparable to what was going on in 1950. And the fact that you wonder if I am half armenian just because I'm not acting like and blind idiotic nationalist consumed by hatred....well that just shows your opinion of the armenian people.
A bunch of spelling errors there:
abusing, board, an
The weakest area of Armenia's Foreign Policy, and arguably its worst mistake or blind spot ever since independence, has been precisely that with regard to Turkey.
This policy, according to Mr Oskanian amounted to "our willingness to enter into relations with Turkey with no pre-conditions". He characterises this as "a noble gesture on our part..." since despite being victims of genocide, we "extended our hand, unconditionally... " .
Whereas radical and positive changes were implemented in many areas of government policy following the ouster of the HHSh from power in 1997, Armenia's policy toward Turkey is perhaps the one area which has remained entirely dominated by the bankrupt ideology of HHSh and hardly evolved or developed to embrace the true national interests of Armenia. Arguably it is the one area of government policy that is crying out for a radical root and branch reform and change. The complete failure of the "road map" makes this increasingly clear.
Without such rethinking of Armenia's foreign policy, i.e. if the policy delusions and vacuum regarding Turkey continues, we will run the risk of further sinking into the Turkish orbit in a western sponsored drive to dominate the Caucasus. Best scenario outcome for us in this situation will be to gradually lose our independent statehood and to become a Turkish Vilayet once again and later to be "integrated" into Azerbaijan - a scenario which is in fact in progress right now with the "road map". Worst scenario will be a sudden violent destruction of our statehood through a joint Turko-Azeri aggression.
A better Turkish policy for Armenia, at least after HHSh was kicked out, would have been - indeed can be now - to assertively explain Armenia's deep rooted problems with Turkey for all the three (or four/five) sets of audiences that Mr Oskanian rightly distinguishes, first and foremost our own people inside Armenia as well as the Diaspora, then the various foreign audience, namely the European, US and of course Turkish. As we have not explained the nature of this deep rooted conflict to our own people , and even less to the international community, and have only extended an uncalled for and unwarranted "noble hand of friendship" towards the murderous, aggressive, xenophobic, racist-nationalist regime in Turkey, the boot, as they say, is on the other foot! We are being told to sit down with our executioners on an equal footing and "to get on with each other"! That is the pressure is on Armenia to compromise, with regard to the Genocide, Western Armenia, and Artsakh.
This is not strange or unusual as it is not difficult to imagine what happens in this sort of unequal "relationships" between states: Just remembert what happened to Czechoslovakia and Poland in the late 1930 in their "relations/negotiations" with a similarly aggressive, unreformably racist-nationalist regime to their west - the Third Reich in Berlin.
In the wake of the failure of the "road map" Armenia must stop sinking deeper into the quagmire and the trap set up by Turkey, and take stock. It will must rapidly fill up the void in its foreign policy and correct its disastrous neglect of the peril that is threatening it with oblivion.The time bomb is slowly ticking in Ankara.
Armenia must make radical changes to its foreign policy in this regard to meet the challeges of the next decade with an increasingly unstable, erratic and dangerous Turkey.
I live in Romania. How can i get his book? i am rather curious of it...
Thank you for articulating the feelings of so many dedicated members.
So when is the Weekly planning on running the article for how Garen did in the general election ? Its odd that the Weekly felt the need to run multiple articles about a city council race in California ( I am assuming its because he is a regular contributor) and then when it comes to report what happened in the final election its readers don't hear a word. He came in last of six candidates. If you are going to run articles about the primary then you need to run an article about the final results.
Okay, first of all, this guy Handel sounds like a libertarian from the blog comments made of him. That doesn't excuse the just-as-hateful comments by Garen Yegparian. I really resent that the "right" is always associated with "loud, unsubstantiated, crass, yet immensely popular noise machines that is epitomized by Rush (the Druggie) Limbaugh." This statement in itself is very offensive. Why does the left feel so empowered that it's okay for them to make offensive comments while others should not. The author should take a lesson in being tactful. He would garner a lot more supporters from both sides if he didn't offend some of his readers....like ME.
As for Handel, the son of Holocaust survivors himself, it sounds like he's tightening his own noose. What an EVIL comment he made. It will come back and bite him in the a**. Sounds like he's going to be out of a job if he continues like this. As he should be.
Meline, the children in the Armenian orphanages are not "abandoned" by their parents b/c they didn't want them. These are families that don't have the financial means to support their children, so they take them to an orphanage. Majority of the time these parents visit their kids almost every day to at least share a meal with them. And while an orphanage can never replace a home, most of the orphanages in Armenia are well kept.
Allowing non-Armenians to adopt Armenian kids will lead to more and more Armenians losing their heritage and culture, reducing our small population even more. Angelina may have a lot of money, but she lacks something that her money can never buy, an Armenian heritage. And what do you think the odds are that Jolie's current adopted kids will be aware of their own heritage when they get older? I highly doubt it.
And Nairi, while there are Armenians in Armenia that have found themselves in compromising situations due to economic turmoil in the country, not every child or orphan is destined for a life of prostitution and crime. Historically an important characteristic of Armenians has been the ability to rise above their circumstances and succeed in life, despite the many obstacles they have come across. Let's give this credit to our younger generations as well. If we sell our future generations to foreigners for monetary gain, then we are committing another form of our own cultural genocide.
They all left Serbia: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosovo, but still Serbs are not ready to ask themselves why nobody want to live together with them. Reality seem to be too hurting for them to be honest and confess their wrongdoings in all of these countries that left Serbia for a good reason.
Why is Armenia reluctant in making relations closer with the US?
Flooding the channels is not what the network wants. If you flood the networks with outrage then the channel will feel the pressure and be forced to apologize and possibly make some work ethical decisions by removing or reviewing persons who need to be under control. Ignoring the issue certainly will not help anyone and will send the wrong message to the growing racist authority in Burbank. I am very glad this person spoke on KFI because it highlights the reality of the situation: this chain of thinking permeates the police department, news casts, and even lawmakers who have openly been prejudice towards minorities but especially the Armenian minorities. Continue to flood the networks, it will help raise awareness. As far as Freds comment i agree, Armenians at UCSB have a moral authority, as does anyone who advocates free (unbiassed) speech, to support Mr Robinson. But saying that somehow one overcastes the other is outlandish.
the guy doesn't know what he's got, give him a kick in the bum...
where do you live? i'll be happy to eat his pazhen...i love bamyah!, but pilahv is my favorite, every woman makes it differently and i like the variations. i fondly/lovingly remember the pilahvs of my aunt and another Baji survivor from the 'old country' (Sara Baji) in manchester, nh and marlboro, ma, they made the best pilahvs, little kinda dry, they were stingy(?) with the butter/oil 'cuz they didn't have much in the old country and learned to make it sparing the ingredients, i can stil taste their cooking and years have gone by BUT no discredit to my mother's or sisters' pilahvs either...thanx for a good trip down memory lane. you enjoy the bamyah even if he won't, it mean more to those who know it firt hand...regards
Oh my God! Bamya Geragour stew with lamb meat...It's heavenly food.
My late mom used to cook it, and my wife prepares it ...even better. We call it Bamya Pilaf (with rice).
My mom used to cook it the Chalkaratsi way, my wife cooks it the Vanetsi way.
Bamya Pilaf is on the top of every menu in any restaurant in Baghddad, Iraq. I really have enjoyed every spoonful of it either at home or in the Iraqi restaurants.
I say we campaign for this turk to get the job at msnbc..the issue of recognition of the genocide needs more media coverage. what better than a turk being at the forefront of recognition? even if he denies the genocide, it would spark debate...and plus the truth always finds a way to the top , no matter how much they try to cover it up.
ANCA, being off the mark on this one, is in danger of being marginalized, and drag our issues down with this negative stance.
A very interesting article. Where else is Andy Turpin going to be writing from?
Garbis, please explain. ANCA " off the mark"? How, why? "in danger of being marginalized"? By whom? "negative stance"? As opposed to "positive" stance? What would your stance be? Perhaps
I may agree with you if you could flesh out your comments with substantive, logical and persuasive
arguments.
If I'm responsible about adoption, I would like to recommend that the child should visit and stay in Armenia one month every year, not to forget thee culture.
I wonder who exactly counted on Obama to use the G word? Naive Armenians who also counted on VP Biden, and SOS Hillary Clinton to come thru, and they didn't. Not to mention our alleged "friend," Samantha Power.
The naivete of it all.
And what are the prospects now for the genocide resolution? About 10%, I would say.
And that leaves us (I use the word "us" very loosely) up the creek without a paddle.
What is Plan B? It looks to me like there isn't any.
I hope this makes you happy:
http://armenianweekly.com/2009/06/07/what-a-ride-iii-glendale-special-burbank/
Kecce Hovnanyan#
Tog haytni ir ev ay hayeren kardacog dprocneri hascenern MTORUM Hayoc tarerov im 16 "A3" chapi ejerov lragryum hratarakelu hamar';
Hajogutyun Bolorid:
I don't know about you but I found that last comment that an "Armenian child will fit in perfectly with her African, Cambodian, and Vietnamese babies” very amusing! :S
First, understand what Genocide means. Second, get over yourselves! There was no genocide (which is why US will NEVER acknowledge it). Stop the lies and move on with your pathetic lives.
Mr Hamparian should have another demand - actually the first demand on his list, namely demand the resignation of Samantha Power as the intermidiary who lured and deceived the Armenian voters and supporters worldwide. If she was sincere and was not deceiving the Armenians, for example in her famous You Tube message solemnly promisisng Obama will recognise the Armenian Genocide, and really beleived what she was saying then it follows that, as a matter of principle and her political integrity, she must resign. In any case she has not delivered and must therefore answer for her failure. She must be held accountable and the Armenians are the ones who should isist on this accountability. For Armenians to do otherwise would be to go along with corrupt power (pun intended)! ANCA must make this its number one demand: Samantha Power Must Resign!
Well, short of writing an essay about the subject; I can summarize it by saying: President Obama has never changed his mind about our Armenian Genocide history; while retaining his right to label Genocide Genocide, he is strongly nudging Turkey to seize the hostility towards Armenia and also face their history, in a timely manner.I feel ANCA is playing Monday morning quarterback in this process, and that is not conducive to a healthy outlook.That can turn around and bite us (in our public opinion and general perception).
Since this would not have been the only time a sitting presidentwould have uttered the word Genocide, and Turkeys attitude not changing just because of it, makes me wonder how affective it would be again?
I think we should try a different approach .Speaking softly and carrying a big stick like our president is doing sounds like a better option at this time to me.
Obama's broken promise was a heartbreaking blow but we must not stop fighting as Americans for justice. We cannot surrender and stop fighting for justice. This is a push for us to step up our game and start really doing more than before, by supporting the ANCA and especially the Gateway program and try to get Armenians jobs within the adminsitration and the state department. Clearly we can't depend on anyone else, to get our back so it's up to us to make justice a reality for the Armenian diaspora. If we throw in the towel now, how long will it be before we end up like the Assyrians, a practically dead culture?
What i don't understand are the following:
1. Why did anyone believe that Obama will be any different from his predecessors in what concerns the Genocide? He as a person might be new, fresh, but the political practices and techniques of getting votes/support from unsuspecting naive dumbs (sorry!) are rather old, and rotten. And Obama is just a politician...
2. We stand much worse than i thought if Armenia's leaders relied on and took as guarantees only "Turkey’s sincerity in seeking normalized ties and the lifting of Ankara’s blockade"...
Turks/Turkey/Turkish government/Turkish leadership has never been honest or fair with us, not a 1000years ago when turks first came here, not in the 18th century, not in the 19th century, not at the beginning of the 20th and NEVER SINCE. What will it take as a wake up call for Armenia's leaders to see that?! :(
I can think of another high-level Obama adminstration appointee who refuses to acknowledge the Armenian genocide: Samantha Power of the National Security Council, which is under the direct control of the White House, not the State Department.
Oh, sure, Power used to acknowledge the Genocide at one time. And she told Armenians in her video last year to trust her and Obama to do so. But since that time, she has had nothing at all to say. She broke her word to us and to the American people. Has she apologized to Armenians? Nope. She is now the sort of person she once blasted in her book, "A Problem from Hell" - that is, a government official who did not have the courage to use the G word.
Oh, she's not to blame? Then who is? If she won't take some responsibilty for Obama's breaking his and her promises, who will? The message that Armenian Americans are sending out due to their flaccid response to the April 24 fiasco is that it is OK to lie to us. Can you imagine what the response of Jewish Americans would be if they were in similar situation? They would make sure that they were listened to, and they would demand that heads roll.
This message is particularly intended for you Samantha Power fans out there. I wish I could a say more but I won't, for reasons of tact.
Aram, I think you give Turkey's leaders and the Turkish lobby too much credit for the Obama deception. I don't think any "bait and switch" occurred. Instead, the US State Dept. is and has always been since the start of the Cold War pro-Turkey. The state department's warped view of Turkey as a necessary ally and strategic asset against any future ... Read MoreRussian resurgence is at fault. I claim that the same outcome would have occurred had there been no lobbyist activity on the part of Turkey and/or its leaders.
Armenia is not a US ally. Armenia is allied with Russia, which continues to be viewed by the American people and state department as a hostile potential future threat with undemocratic political institutions. Turkey, on the other hand, is a US ally.
The challenge is not to elect presidents that make the most grandiose promises for genocide recognition. The challenge is to seek a reversal in the state dept.'s Cold War era warped mentality. This begins with warmer US-Russia relations.
Spoken like a true ignorant turk who is ashamed of what his/her ancestors have done and refuses to acknowledge it in fear of the world realizing what savages you really are. Telling the Armenians to "stop the lies".....maybe you should look in the mirror. What's pathetic is the steps you have taken to continually put the blinders on the American politicians.
John Lennon was right in asking for world peace. Once that happens the US won't need your airbases any more and the world will point their collective finger at you....the middle one!!
Spot on Dave. Someone must be made to answer for this serious breach of confidence - Obama's refusal to acknowledge the Genocide. We can't seriously ask for the President's resignation but Power is fair game given her specific promises and pledges, on her and Presidential candidate Obama's behalf, that as President Obama would acknowledge the Genocide. Well he hasn't and she must be made to account for this failure. Otherwise every politician will continue to take us for a ride - as a big chunk of them often have. We should do better than that and make enough noise so they won't dare to walk all over us without worrying about any negative consequences for themselves. As we know power corrupts and UNACCOUNTABLE/absolute POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY: Samantha Power Must Resign!
I agree with Dave. Samantha Power put her credibility on the line with her now infamous YouTube video telling us to take her word for it. She used to blast government officials who did nothing, now she has become one of them. If her goal is to bring light to genocide then she should use the word genocide as a government official then resign. Ambassador Evans did it under Bush so can she.
Obama has proven that he is no friend of the Armenian Americans and needs to be looked upon as an adversary among the likes of Bush. Just because he does it with a smile doesn't mean his policies are any better than the previous administration everyone loved to bash.
Is there any way to donate money to help Larissa support the children she cares for in Armenia?
I wonder why...
Mother of the century. This is a true Armenian.
Thank you, Larissa.
Garbis: "Speak softly and carry a big stick"?? The biggest stick the Armo-American community had was canvassing work and campaign contributions. Now that he's Prez though, and those campaign contributions are nonrefundable, he doesn't need us anymore. (Which, by the way, would have been the same strategy for Clinton) Obama doesn't need a big stick in terms of the genocide, because, frankly, recognition or lack thereof really doesn't make a difference to him at the end of the day. Who cares about human rights when you have record approval ratings.
And in terms of Armenians, care to explain what *our* big stick is?
Gordon: What would Plan B have been otherwise? Trust Clinton or McCain to recognition for heaven's sake??
Bernard: Resignation of SP, really? How do you know she lied about those promises? Maybe she actually believed Obama would recognize the genocide! Maybe his refusal to do so is just as much a shock to her as it is to Armo-Americans (although I doubt it). In any case, now she'll have a lifelong memory of Obambi's great betrayal: She had her first child on April 24, 2009.
AK: Armenia is absolutely an ally to the US...just not a very important one. We don't have oil, or pipelines, or even access to a waterway. It's not like Armenia has a ton of US bases, all of those are in Turkey! The US couldn't care less about how close Hayastan is to Russia, because (let's face it) Hayastan is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Although frankly, when the PRESIDENT OF ARMENIA tells OUR PRESIDENT NOT TO RECOGNIZE THE GENOCIDE, maybe we should focus less on who's allied with whom, and more on who the hell got elected to the top-post in the fatherland, non?
Dear Tupoy-yan:
1. First become a country that has achieved something. Your greatest mosque was once a church. what you are really known for is killing civilians, arresting journalists, and having your fragile egos bruised whenever someone critizies your pathetic modern founder.
2. pssst...nobody likes you. Nobody. Not the middle east, not america, and most of all Europeans. You declared war on Germany 4 days before they surrendered in WW II...pathetic losers.
3. Everyone knows the Armenian Genocide happened. They don't say it because you pathetic people will close your bases.
Roxann: The article mentions that Larissa received help from a pastor in MA. Here's the link for his church: http://www.armenianchurchofwhit.org/
Perhaps it might be best to go through them?
Where is our "Strategic Depth?"
Who/where does the thinking about the "Strategic Depth?"
I have to agree that calling for the resignation of Samatha Power is the stupidest thing I ever heard. She is not calling the shots, so she can't be held responsible for anything. Unfortunately we need to learn the lesson, which is be careful what you ask for, because Samantha Power very much is a friend of the Armenian Community and any change would most definitely be for the worst.
Let's say for instance Obama used the "G" word, would the birds all of a sudden start to chirp in Armenia? What exactly would that change? While aid to Azerbaijain grows and Armenia's drops in record proportions, the true threat to Armenia is unfolding before our eyes and here we are like a bunch of ignorant blind and deaf fools talking about the "G" word. Wake up!
It's very difficult to "counter" Turkey's bait and switch considering we did everything right and played our cards quite well...I'm the first person to condone blind nationalism and embrace a progressive approach to Turkish-Armenian relations and EVEN I COULD SEE how this was nothing more than a TRICK.
The real question is...how do we counter the incompetence of the Armenian government?
I just finished reading all the comments people had written - and I see my sentiments have already been expressed. Thank you to all of you!
This was a wonderful women. God Bless all in her family.
When you portray the pursuit of justice and human rights as a lobbying effort you have already, cheapened the pursuit of justice, defeated your own cause, and made it impossible for a wider majority to join your struggle.
May I suggest that you stop lobbying and start educating your neighbors.
you need the Jews behind you on this and you wold see how quickly there will be genocide recognition, it's all money and politics. who has the more money to spend? the Armenians have formidable opponents! but, don't give up...and the next generation needs to be taught this piece of history, learn from the Jews...
Senator Barack Obama already stated that the Armenian Genocide is a fact. President Reagan stated it as President. 42 US states have recognized it. It is not necessary to cajole President Obama to state it again. Harut Sassounian has emphasized this numerous times. Diaspora Armenians should immediately proceed to file a case with the International Court in The Hague. We do not need the Turkish lap dogs Sarkissian and Nalbandian to initiate this. We can start with the confiscation of Armenian Church, Armenian Catholic Church and Armenian Evangelical Church properties since the establishment of the Turkish Republic in 1923. Then proceed to litigate the confiscations of personal property under both the Turkish Republic and the Young Turk regime. Turks are being elected to high political office in many countries in Europe,while Armenians and other Christians in Turkey do not even have basic property rights.
"Because the red tape in Armenia is less" what she means to say is because her money can buy her way around adoption in poor countries.
Lets Exam the legalities of jolies adoptions:
1) a boy from Cambodia, was adopted from the Galindo sisters that owned Seattle Adoption Agency. 5 months after Jolie gets the boy from the Galindos and he is in the USA as her possession, Cambodian adoptions close down due to fraud. Wait this gets better..........Lauren Galindo is thrown in jail for VISA FRAUD and Seattle Adoption Agency is closed down. Cambodian adoptions remained closed to this day.
3) A beautiful girl from Ethiopia- Jolie's marketing people announce to the world that the child is an orphan, the child of a woman who died of AIDS. 7 months later the Ethiopian birth mother is found by the international media. She asks "why is Jolie telling people I am dead?" The Ethiopian woman is a poor onion farmer, who sells them at a local farmer's market. She was ganged raped by a neighboring military miltia gang. Her mother encouraged her to adopt the child out because they are SO POOR. The adoption agency in the USA has a press conference and declares that the in country facilitator must have lied to us on the child's abandonment and we will no longer use him.
cHILD 3) Adopted from Vietnam, 4 months later in November 2007 , 14 American Couples in Vietnam are stopped by the American Embassy and denied Exit Visas for their adopted children. The reason? Questions about the "abandonment" conflicting information and no PROPER relinquishment papers. Today.............Vietnam is STILL CLOSED TO INTERNATIONAL ADOPTIONS TO THE USA.
Ask yourself why Jolie wants to adopt from Armenia? Is this truly good for the image of Armenia?
CAN YOU SAY HUMAN TRAFFICKING? iT IS A CRIME, but when you are rich and famous it is called adoption.
All of you! Listen up. 97% of the orphaned children in Armenia are classified as "Social Orphans" meaning their parents love them, but cannot afford to feed them. They are in orphanages so they can simply get a day's meal. It is sad very sad.
Human trafficking has happened in Armenia, many kids become panhandlers, the girls go to Dubai, Turkey as prostitutes.
There are organizations that help.
www.soar-us.org
We need to educate our children and they will prosper, for a stronger Armenia.
Katy, you don't know what you are talking about.
For healthy children and babies from Armenia one parent must have Armenian Heritage, they take first priortiy. The Special Needs Children: Down Syndrom, Limbs missing are adopted by non-Armenian usually very religious kid collector families. If you are an American here is the link to the State Department's regulations on Armenian Adoptions. This page also includes Armenian law which you must ALSO follow. Note the fees in Armenia are less than $100.00 usd. The $30,000 you quote is what the facilitator or American Adoption agency tacks on. As the page states,: "Armenia does not recognize Adoption Agencies, you may give power of Attorney to someone , friend, lawyer, relative, that can walk your paperwork through the proper channels in Armenia. You can by all means use an Agency, but it is not necessary. The Agency only does what you do ---they have an incountry represenative that locates the adoptable children and walks the translated dossier to the Armenian Adoption Committee who FIRST must approve the couple for adoption. Christians are also a must!
http://adoption.state.gov/country/armenia.html
Hi Aram,
Obama "thinks" he can handle the Turks. The Turks' deceitful tactics are genetic.., what bothered me THE MOST was that we, the "Armenian government" with all the gruesome experience and knowledge that we have of the Turkish character, fell ONCE MORE in their trap. This was the part that was inexcusable for me. WE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN THIS, and refused to have taken part in this "road map" bait deal, of all things right before Obama was in a bind to follow a campaign promise that the American Armenian community had worked so hard for. It breaks my heart to say this, the Armenian side decided to be the "weakest link" in this... yet again. We needed to show constraint. We needed to play hard ball. I felt that we had the upper hand, and then... catastrophe... We are supposed to learn from our mistakes. We know we can never trust Turkey. And as far as the American stance goes, I recommend that every American Armenian read the book "Vahan Cardashian, Advocate Extraordinaire for the Armenian Cause", to understand what America's historical stance has been vis a vis the Armenian cause. Ten years after the Genocide and WWI, the U.S. government bartered the Turkish Armenian lands for oil revenues, and assigned the post of Turkish Amabassador to a war criminal who was involved in the Armenian massacres. So who can we trust more? Ideally, we should ONLY TRUST OURSELVES.
One needs to be smart to be deceitful and the other one must be naive to be deceived. These are the rules of the game. The fact is president of the USA was not deceived. Turkey experienced enough to see the consequences of not being sided with the USA during Iraq invasion. However, it is another topic whether these consequences can be undertaken or not. During Iraq invasion, Turkey undertook the consequences.
I, as a Turkish citizen, do not believe that President Obama was deceived by Turkish authorities. Is there anyone who thinks this was the game plan since the beginning of the approval of the road map? I believe that president Obama was sincere to recognize the 'Armenian Genocide' claims while he was running for the presidency. However, he might have changed his plans when he figured out that his plans in Middle East can not be achieved without the support of Turkey. One needs to understand what is being planned in Middle East in order to comprehend Turkish-American relations. These relations do not evolve around Armenia whereas Armenian Genocide issue have been used as a stick against Turkey by US.
Secondly, it must be asked by Armenians whether is it of the US interests to make a Russian ally country happy at the expense of creating deep problems with a US ally. The fact is actions of the USA for so long have not been simply a seek for justice and peace over the globe.
One thing I never fully understood, why we are so motivated and attached to the idea of United States recognition of Armenian Genocide?. With Jewish and Turkish lobbies working so hard against us we have to do lots of catching ups ahead of us if we are so motivated by US recognition of Armenian genocide. I guess we have to remember particularly this is America and money talks much louder than anything else.
Thank God for Larissa, a true Armenian Angel that doesn't exploit our children but gives them a loving home in Armenia.
Everyone, lets donate whatever we can to help this woman!
She is helping the future of Armenia..............our children.
Don Imus lost his job for his hateful speech and deservedly so. And he never called for anyone's death. This guy has to be fired. Turning the other cheek is not an option. Threatening to boycott and boycotting the sponsors is an option if he is not fired. ((does anyone know who the sponsors are?))
What about legal action? Can you call for the death of a people even in this country? It's my understanding that yelling fire in a crowded movie theater when there's no fire, is not covered by free speech. Maybe Mark Geragos can get involved.
Obama's refusal to recognize the Genocide today reflects US foreign policy more than just the issue of Genocide recognition. US foreign policy has almost never been about human rights and righting history's wrongs. It's been about protecting "US interests" which almost always means protecting the military industrial complex and corporate interests. Look at our history of foreign invasion in Central America especially. We've overthrown or have aided in the overthrow of many democratically elected adminstrations that lean towards the left and have aided right wing adminstrations that had a habit of killing many people. While I believe we're closer than we've ever been in getting recognition with Obama in office, the realization that we have much higher mountains to climb was made very evident by Obama's actions. It is a rather sobering lesson.
George: I disagree about taking Turkey to court over the genocide. Not because they shouldn't be convicted of it, but because they would get acquitted over some technicality (which often happens in horrendous cases where the better attorneys are working for the bad guy). The acquittal wouldn't prove whether there was or wasn't a genocide, but YOU KNOW the Turkish govt would spin it to their advantage and further brainwash their people.
I still say that the blame lies on Serge Sarkisian and Edvard Nalbandian for signing that "Road Map" agreement. All they're doing is trying to appease the foreign powers, even at the expense of Armenia's national security. If ANYONE has to resign, it's THEM. I agree with Katia and Frenchie that the incompetence of the Armenian government is to blame. Obama would've looked foolish for recognizing the genocide after that "Road Map" agreement was signed. Had Sarkisian not done that "football diplomacy", have secret meetings with Turkish officials (and keep the Armenian public in the dark), and signed that 'Road Map' agreement, everything would've played out VERY differently.
Tro: You're right. People are so busy voicing their frustration at Obama they forget that Armenia's own government foolishly fell for Turkey's tricks.
Let's remember, however, that the POTUS is accountable to the AMERICAN PEOPLE, who vote in American elections, and NOT to foreign governments, whether it be Turkey or Armenia. We must resist the urge to decrease our participation in the American civic process just because of this, albeit significant, drawback. We must stay active in US politics and make sure neither Obama, his administration, nor the American people forget or deny what happened to the world's first Christian nation!!
No matter what happens with respect to Armenia and its own foreign policy, let's keep reminding President Obama that he is accountable to us AMERICANS first and foremost.
I would have assumed Samantha Power would resign on her own. Personally, I don't think it's our place to ask her too resign. I wonder what her new book cover is going to read; "A problem from hell, a look behind closed doors". I hope we dont end up buying them off the bookshelves and distribute them to Congress Members? Maybe if Powers can justify herself working for the Administration, in the end it would have been worth it. We'll see.
-------------------------
I think it is hypocritical of the current US policy to have somewhat of a hands off approach to leave the matter between Turkey and Armenia. The US most offen calls on various governments in a cooperative inclusive approach on issues of it's concern.
Had Sarkisian not done that “football diplomacy”, have secret meetings with Turkish officials (and keep the Armenian public in the dark), and signed that ‘Road Map’ agreement, everything would’ve played out VERY differently. =>I heard that nowadays in Yerevan there is a touristic campaign for/about Turkey, with advertisement on TV channels and banners on the streets... just to add to Tro's list, i think... :@
Frenchie, What technicality is there that could be utilized by Turkey? The Turkish actions are as clear as water from a glacier. A precedent was recently set with the Court's decision on the Syriac monastery in Mardin. We are talking apples and orange here. The issues of confiscation are separate from the killings.
i think that our underlying motivations of morality and human rights are genuine reasons to push for recognition of the genocide, but I think that it might do us better to stick to a harder line and adhere to greater self-interest. So, having said that, i think it'd be best to not only start pushing for genocide recognition on its own, we should start creating a far broader approach, immediately, to how we advocate: reparations, legitimacy at least as private citizens to regain lands lost, rights to Turkish citizens' rights, push for land, renaming of cities and whatever else to what they were previously.
This is a hard line to push and would probably be regarded by a good number of armenian constituents as too unreal, but it might speak more true to what we really want and what we must get in order to legitimize who we are, where we're from and our link to what should exist for us.
A good question is how do we educate more effectively our community and change the culture so as to realize that this is what we must expect? I never needed a camp or workshop, but I think that a more intense advocacy program that informs its constituents what it expects to get for them philosophically, politically, economically would help. Perhaps it would be nice to set up investment funds to purchase land in Turkish cities and build markets and infrastructure to build a base of income would be good. That would even help build a legitimacy to the land. Armenians from the diaspora could rebuild Kars and profit from doing so. The "West-Armenia Company"! How about funding schools and other infrastructure. This could give us an easier way to influence what happens with our land. This is a different perspective to remaking that land ours.
I'd like to hear what others think about this idea of legitimizing what we want by creating real links with the places where we want to identify ourselves with more.
Armenian Genocide is not a "political soccer ball" Turkey should come up with a sober understanding, and admit that "crime" committed against their Armenians subject between 1915 and 1923.
I wish to add one more point that is linked to the confiscations. The issue of cultural genocide. The Armenian history of the cities of the Armenian provinces in present-day Turkey has been obliterated. It is as if the Armenians never existed. This issue is also separate from the killings.
It is disheartening to hear that yet again we have fallen under such conditions. However, in spreading the message that this is happening and constantly working toward such a honorable cause will just show how dedication runs through the veins of the Armenian people. Unfortunately, with political agenda's such as these come lies and trickery. None of it, however, is justifiable. We must all, each and every Armenian, show that dedication by being involved in community or national organizations that fight everyday for our cause. It will take all our efforts to make our voices heard and there is something powerful to be said in having strength in numbers. Flood your local organizations with innovative ideas, take on the responsibility of following through with those ideas, and remember that no one voice will go unheard amongst us.
POLITICAL PROSTITUTION OF AMERICAN POLICY, SENDING THAT HIGH-RANKING DENEYER OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE TO ARMENIA IN ORDER TO "NORMILIZE " ARMENIAN-TURKISH RELATIONS, CONSTITUTES AN ACT OF HYPOCRISY OF AMERICAN POLICY.EVREYBODY KNOWS THAT THERE WILL BE NO PEACE BETWEEN ARMENIANS AND TURKEY WITHOUT LIBERATION OF ARMENIAN LANDS UNDER TURKISH OCCUPATION AS RESULT OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 1915 .A WISHFULL THINKING FOR AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION AND TURKEY
Thank you for the inspiring, positive article. Gladys, Mary, and Queenie were "extra aunts" to my brother and me, and were best friends of our mother, Rosalie (Kolligian) Ahlijanian and aunt Sylvia (Kolligian) Varadian. Anyone who had the pleasure of meeting them quickly realized that these 3 beautiful "girls" (as Grandma Bessie would say) embodied the best of the Armenian spirit: preservation of our proud culture and people, hard work/self-sacrifice, dedication to the church, and importance of family. Hopefully we can continue to pass these virtues to our children, though they are certainly a tough act to follow. All members of the Greater Fermanian family should be incredibly proud. Thank you again for reminding us in challenging economic times that there are more important things than buying the new iPhone or modifying vacation plans. Gladys, Mary, and Queenie would be focused on very different priorities today!
I have no doubt that this was a bait and switch on Turkey's part. Why, how, and if the Obama administration fell for it is a different series of questions.
What this speaks to is the tremendous necessity for Armenians to pursue careers in government and the media. The latter to help mold public opion on our issues and the former to advocate the right policies for the U.S.
This means deep and broad involvement in the daily life of our communities and elections. That's what'll build individuals' credibility and resume (not to mention experience), enabling what I suggest in the previous paragraph.
Also, in the bait & switch discussion, we should not forget Sarkissian's political weakness, ergo susceptibility to outside pressure, as a factor in his foolhardy move, i.e. the "roadmap", and the timing of its announcement.
Thank you Armenian American community activists, ANC MA and others for keeping the pressure on decision makers in this lawsuit like Judge Wolf to ensure it received the attention of our community and did not fade away as an irrelevant news item. Let’s be honest, without them, Judge Wolf may have been swayed like others before him. Our success has much to do with our communities actions then anything else. WE made the right decision to invest in this battle and succeeded. Thank you Armenian American activists. Keep up the great work!
Armenians have known for years the Turks will do everything and anything to deny the Genocide. As Armenians we must never give up or give in to them. Aram keep up the great work!
To think Obama went to the concentration camps last week and said
"To this day, there are those who insist the Holocaust never happened,"
Obama said. "This place is the ultimate rebuke to such thoughts, a
reminder of our duty to confront those who would tell lies about our
history." He added: "I have no patience for people who
would deny history."
Shame on him.
Tupoy-yan,
Or rather Stupid-yan... Good job with the name pun, except you did it in the language of a country that RECOGNIZES the genocide. Yea, Russia recognized it, and Turkey did not retaliate!!
Your own Turkish people know it was a genocide and even admit to it. By agreeing with your government you just prove you're not very bright...
These events should encourage all Armenians to push President Obama and his administration to (1)realize that they were duped (yet again) by Turkey this year, (2) recognize that no significant steps will be taken towards normalization in 2009, and (3) "punish" Turkey for deceiving the US and not normalizing its relations with Armenia by recognizing the Armenian Genocide on April 24th, 2010. The patience and fortitude required to deal with sensitive political issues such as this astounds me and I applaud the ANCA for spearheading Armenian-Americans efforts towards our ultimate victory in this battle.
Great article about the importance and value of the AYF. No other organization places so much responsibility and hope in young Armenians' lives. I like Vicken miss being in the AYF and am so proud when I hear about the amazing work that the AYF members do for our communities in the diaspora and for Armenians in Armenia, Karabagh and Javakh.
This may piss some people off but before we are Armenians we are humans, so I agree with Katy and Anahit and that an Armenian orphan is much better off being adopted by a family that loves him or her rather than staying in an orphanage. Having a mom and dad how loves and takes care of a child is more important than anything else in the world and I applaud Angelina and Brad for doing what they are doing.
It's now painfully clear that Turkey has neither been fair nor honest in its dealings with Armenia and the United States. We should draw an important lesson from this difficult experience about the value of standing strong and relying upon our own energies - not the good will of those who have, time and again, proven that they bear only ill-will toward the Armenian nation.
Good points Hovsep. I agree totally.
Now onwards with the mobilisation of the Armenian community in the US, or better still, worldwide, for that other notorious case the American Assembly of turkish Associations (AATA)/the Turkish government have filed, this time against the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLA) for their brave articles detailing Turkish government efforts to manipulate U.S. academia to deny that crime against humanity.
What the SPLA did to expose Turkish distortion of history and denial of the Armenian Genocide, on their own initiative, deserves the maximum support of all decent human beings and the Armenians in particular. As the Weekly's feature above correctly puts it:
"This case is part of a larger strategy by Turkish American groups to use the legal system to harass human rights advocates on issues relating to the Armenian Genocide". Therefore we must spare no efforts to make sure it does not succeed but fails, and the SPLA come out of this victorious, as happened in the Massachusetts education curriculum case where the denialsts have suffered a major defeat thanks partly to community organisation and mobilisation.
Dear Eileen,
I believe you attempted to contact my mother today. She is obviously still very fragile.
My mother is not the same Rose Garabedian you seek. Garabedian is a very common Armenian surname and Rose was also very popular choice for girls in her generation.
Good luck finding your mothers friend. You may want to contact the Schools Alumni association.
Best of Luck.
This was war. We Jews know what ethnic cleansing is. Probably more so than many other ethnic groups do. What happened to the Armenians was a horrific massacre and loss of life. Was every massacre throughout history motivated by ethnic cleansing? Certainly not. What Hitler tried to accomplish is a far cry from any Armenian so-called genocide. You cannot deny that many Armenians lost their lives as they were looking for a land of their own, however, what is not recognized is that the Armenians themselves inflicted as much damage as others in the hostilities of that time for their own selfish objectives. The Turks’ only policy was the removal of Armenians from the front line with Russia, where they were collaborating with the Ottoman Empire’s enemies. They were a threat to security. This is called war.
Regarding persecution, the Ottomans had one of the most tolerant policies toward non-Turks of any empire of its day. The three communities of Jews, Greeks and Armenians were virtually autonomous within the empire. It cannot be denied that throughout history the Ottoman Empire unlike any other empire of its time allowed Jews to practice their own religion as well as many freedoms of their time. When the Ottoman Empire had taken over Jerusalem, had they tried to annihilate the strong presence of the Armenians who had their own quarter? Never. Could you say that the Russians committed genocide against the Circassians and Adyghes? If you could, then the Armenians slaughtered 200,000 people including Turks and Kurds and Jews in Eastern Anatolia during Turkey’s Independence War while the Turks were fighting against the imperial powers of Europe on five fronts. Armenians took advantage of the Turks’ weak position and waged a war against them by opening a new front. But, this was war.
Aram and ANC:
There is a saying: "Change the results by changing your strategy."
Heed these words.
John, Sadly, a Genocide is a Genocide is a Genocide. Whose was greater, whose was longer, matters not..... If all those we lost to Genocides, could speak, I am certain they would agree. A Genocide is a Genocide is a Genocide. Today, ask the Darfurians. Even more: Who/When, the next Genocide? Manooshag
"...what is not recognized is that the Armenians themselves inflicted as much damage as others in the hostilities of that time for their own selfish objectives."
John, do have any idea how many people say the same thing about the Jews in Germany? Just substitute the word Jews where you wrote Armenians. How dare you? Go read the Turk press. Stay away from the Armenians.
Good work, but if we want to hit where it hurts, we need to go after their advertisers. A copy of the recording along with a letter that pointing out why they shouldn't be advertising with those who promote genocide should do.
To Lori Wagner
Dear Lori and Dear
Your Book is so nice
Laced together many hearts
You appreciated Armenian Soul
It is to be said, “It is the real truth
that not every culture possesses.”
You initiated new coined word
Bachik-Kiss in two languages
Armenian and Anglo-Saxon
Creating new “Genetic Breed”
I hope it can spread happily through centuries
To teach the slayers
How we are able by our invention
To enter, like yours and other honest cores--
Those who can write Soulful Words to be read by mothers
Who can appreciate many genocided prose.
Be careful. Something is up. In my view, the Ambassador is making this visit to sucker the Armenian American community into going along with some concessions the US wants Armenia to make or, to try and smooth over the tremendous ill feelings Obama created in the Armenian community when he broke his repeated solemn pledges to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. Do not trust the U.S. Administration and especially the State Department. They have betrayed Armenia repeatedly to the point of near extinction for the sake of commercial interests. They never even sent one soldier to aid Armenia in 1918-1920 notwithstanding that Armenia was their so called "Little Ally". We must learn, once and for all, to rely on ourselves and stop trying to use other peoples' hands to pull our chestnuts out of the fire. I am also curious about something, does anyone know if the good Ambassador has even visited the Armenian Genocide Museum in Armenia? If not, I will be sure to ask her myself.
Dear John, Turkey and her allies will do anything to neutralize the truth of Armenian Genocide...unfortunately there are some countries where "Armenian Genocide" become a tools and they use when ever required to be used for their own selfish political needs.
I can't believe you are all so stupid to be congratulating yourselves over being reactionary idiots. Armenian people are mostly smart people, you must be the stupid ones. You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You know NOTHING about this show and it makes you look incredibly naive and foreign to just fly off the handle and get each other all riled up over a MISUNDERSTANDING. You are completely misinterpreting the tone and political beliefs of KFI and the show in question. The comment about the Turks was not made by the host, and I notice that you deliberately avoid mentioning this fact. If you think you should be proud of yourselves, I suggest you examine whether or not you were RIGHT about the conclusions you drew about this audio clip, rather than how organized you are in creating pressure to shut up people WHO AGREE WITH YOU!! You will not be effective in silencing this host and you will hurt your own community by showing that you do not care about the truth of the matter if you can show how powerful you are despite being wrong. If you oppose free speech and want to silence the pro-Armenian public then by all means continue making yourselves look like weak, ignorant, crybabies.
We have a history of being easily appeased.
If it's in the best interests of the US for Armenia to lean closer to the West, their doing a horrible job encouraging this behavior as the carrot count clearly indicates. Armenia's neighbors seem to offer more benefits with fewer headaches. From Armenia's end, the strategy of accommodation and blind compliance will yield "no tangible benefits." Clearly Armenia's strategy of reciprocal altruism with the US is not paying off. It's time to settle the score with the cheater.
What a crock. This man is a Turcophile through and through. Have you seen the picture of him rug shopping in Turkey? I have never seen such a happy photo in my life. Looks like he's in paradise. Plus, didn't his producer Robin stand by him in the beginning? Once again, the Armenians are satisfied with nothing. Pathetic, simply pathetic. If firing was good enough for Don Imus, it should be good enough for this creep.
On the substantive issues of democratic governance and the rule of law Armenia has failed. As for negotiations with "Turkey--well that is in Armenia's best interests if it wants to encourage a more viable economy.
As an American I have to ask why spend our taxpayer dollars to enable and abet this rule by the few over the many. As someone of Armenian background I hope Armenia gets its act together and begins to develop a real democracy. As of this moment, the massive riots against a rogue regime in Tehran has recented in less deaths over their "election" than Armenia with it small population.
LETS NOT FORGET THE HISTORY
ARMENIA SHOULD NEVER TRUST TURKEY OR USA.
Let her adopt an Armenian kid, what is the big deal. They are being nice to Armenians and some lucky kid over there is going to start a new life, Armenia is a 3rd world country, kid will be very lucky one. I also think that Armneians who are already immigrated or born in USA should not be angry with her decision, what is the big deal. They say the baby should be raised in Armenia, so why did YOU guys move to USA? She wants one and you will see she will adopt one. I support her in her decision. Way to go Angelina, Armenians are pain in the butt for the world for centuries, and now they are offended because of Angelina thinks that Armanie is 3rd world country since they adopted some other children from the 3rd world countries? Let her do whatever she wants with her life, and Armenians who thinks it's bad decision, more than welcome to go back to Armenia and continue to raise their families in their home country.
Vanessa Kachadurian, if you are so willing to help Armenia why dont you go back to Armenia where you came from? I tihnk you are just talking and talking... If you are so considerate, go help them... Talking from thousands of miles away from Armenia is not gonna help you nor them... I think you should go back and help them for better Armenia...I do not understand Armenians and their empty dreams , you got that?
My wife and I are "missionaries" if you will, to Armenia. We are US citizens. We will be heading to Sevan and Ijevan during the next 3 weeks to assist in the construction of a church in Ijevan and to hold a Bible School in Sevan.
Every society imposes "questionable" actions against citizens of the "state" at one time or another. I don't support the actions that have been taken against certain opposition protestors during last years' election as a basis of withholding aid to Armenia.....and, we've had our own "Kent State" and "Ruby Ridge" incendents in the US. Please, do not think that I don't detest inhumane treatment.
Armenia is the only "Christian" country in the region. Why the US would abandon Armenia is beyond me, cept for the case that perhpas Obama is a Muslem after all.
Armenia is a lovely country with lovely people! I am ashamed of what my government is doing to Armenia.....and embarrassed that we are supporting governments that actually hate us, and hate Armenia.
What are you suggesting Gary? Should Armenia bow down to turkey and apologize for demanding justice for their 1.5 million dead ancestors? Or should Armenia give up the lands that belongs to us when 30,000 brave men lost their lives protecting it? never!!!! Now regarding your "tax dollars" that you are so worried about why dont you call your friend in the government and ask them how much of your "tax dollars" are being spent and why? Or ask them Mr governmet why are we giving out billions of "tax money" to the greedy banks that reward million of "tax dollars" to theirs greedy executives that put us in this financial mess? but no! all that is ok. All of that is fine. As long as they dont send your " tax money" to fix rural roads in Armenia so the farmers can distribute their products and make a living. But I guess thats not the right way to use your "tax money" !
A joint commission will be created, in order to determine teritorrial and financial losses of Armenian Nation in 1915 and not to put in question the historical veracity of Armenian Genocide.And Phil GORDON SHOULD BE DECLARED PERSONA NON GRATA IN ARMENIA AND IN ARMENIAN CIRCLES FOR HAVING BEEN INVOLVED IN ANTI-ARMENIAN ACTIVITIES.
Just remember, you voted for Obama. Now you have to live with his
lies. He only cared about votes.
To The Kid,
Adaption of a child in your view is helping the Armenia, or disallowing it means “go back and help people there”. You are so far from reality.
Poor mentality, mindlessness is pouring from your philosophy.
(I hope you know what it means- look it up)
I’m sure she’s dreading the whole ordeal. But I do NOT sympathize with her at all.
If she has one ounce of respect for Armenian Americans and truly admires American principles of truth and justice she would brazenly condemn her own government during this visit for their shameless denial of the Armenian Genocide. It’s that simple.
Ask yourself this. Would you represent a country in any diplomatic capacity if your government consciously and blatantly denied the Holocaust when they know the truth.
Could you honestly live with yourself for one day?
Obviously, resignation won’t solve the problem but it would send a crystal clear message to the good ol boys and girls of the State Department that their hoax is coming to an end.
Phil Gordon is just another surrogate minion on the payroll of manipulative masters in Anakra who was enslaved to tout Turkish propaganda. I mean it could have been anyone.
Obama and the State Department know very well that a historical commission is a Turkish ploy supported by revisionists to deny the truth.
The only commission that should be created is a JUSTICE COMMISSION. The history has been sitting on American, German and Turkish library shelves for decades collecting dust. They can catch up on this history on their own time NOT ours. Its time to discuss reparations, compensation and retribution.
“The Turkish Penal Code Article 301 is a threat to freedom of expression and must be repealed now!” Amnesty International.
With the Turkish Penal Code, Article 301 still in the books, a genuine dialogue could not take place between Turkish historians who deny the genocide, and historians of any other country who affirm it. The existence of that code prohibits any Turkish citizen to be enlightened about the history of their ancestors, and as such, any historian representing the denialist viewpoint has no permission to be enlightened, since that would lead to the subsequent prosecution of that person under the penal code 301.
Armenia should participate in a 'Historical Commission' only after the Turkish government abolishes the Penal Code 301, which effectively criminalizes the acceptance of the Genocide.
Without the annulment of the penal code 301, the Turkish participants in the commission and the Turkish public have no opportunity to learn and evolve.
An historical commission is a tactic of the champion of obfuscation -- Turkiye -- a nation composed of a mixture of Turks and dozens of generations of stolen Armenians and other Christians from centuries of oppression, persecution, forced conversion to Islam, abductions, and kidnappings.
Google the words "upshot" and "Saljuq" and SPELL IT LIEK THAT and see how EARLY in the previous millenium TURKISH OPPRESSION began!
Shame on the we-know-who-controlled US GOVERNMENT. Intense SHAME!
Why to see only Americans and Turkish misdoings? What about the Armenian Goverment's responsibility in such shameless process and outcome? It is high time to pinpoint our mistakes...
Now this is news! Well done Baron Gregorian. Our youth need to see and read more such success stories. I take it this is something like an ANCA L. Sarkissian Program but in the White House. This can be quite useful for our new generation of youth interested in public service. I wonder if a similar program could be developed in Armenia with guidance from the Civilitas Foundation.
I knew Obama was going to owe Wexler big time for helping to deliver Florida. This is part of his payback. Wexler is a HUGE TURCOPHILE. Who's going to be on the commission? 10 turks and 1 Armenian? Question is, how do the Armenians not take part in this without looking like we know we are wrong (as opposed to knowing we're being bamboozled)?
If this historical commisson/panel is going to exist, then why can't the Armenians choose a panel or commisson of Genocide Scholars to even the playing-field in this commisson?
The web site of Mr. Oskanian’s organization (Civilitas Foundation) lists the members of its Honorary Board.
Please go here to see those members and their bios:
http://www.civilitasfoundation.org/cf/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=55
Mr. Peter R. Rosenblatt is listed as a member of that Board. Right there in black and white, his bio notes that he is on the “National Board of Governors for the American Jewish Committee [AJC]“.
The AJC is just like the Anti-Defamation League in that it opposes the Armenian genocide resolution in the US Congress *and* has never forthrightly acknowledged the Armenian genocide as “genocide.”
I would like to remind the reader that the AJC supports Azerbaijan wholeheartedly and has visited that country and said so. This has been widely reported in the Armenian media.
The reader may also remember the infamous genocide denier, Barry Jacobs, who was a long-time top official of the AJC until very recently. Harut Sassounian and others – including Aram Hamparian of ANCA – have severely critiqued Barry Jacobs in the past. Jacobs also appeared in the Turkish denialist film, Blonde Bride (Sari Gelin).
What I would like to know is: Why does Mr. Oskanian have a top official of the AJC on the board of his Civilitas Foundation? Mr. Rosenblatt is no doubt a very nice man, but for an Armenian organization to have a top member of a Turkish and Azeri ally – namely Mr. Rosenblatt and the AJC – on its board, well, I would respectfully request that Mr. Oskanian provide us all with an explanation.
And, while I am at it, Civilitas gets some support (this is right on its web site if you click on “Partners”) from the “UNITED KINGDOM DEPARTMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (DFID),” which is a part of the British government, which is known to not exactly have warm and fuzzy feelings towards Armenia and which has yet to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. In fact, the British government’s attitude about 1915 is rather nasty.
It seems to me that taking cash from the UK is not a good idea for an Armenian think tank that wishes to be seen as independent.
I say the above, of course, with all due respect to Mr. Oskanian and the loyal services he has rendered to his country as Foreign Minister, and I wish Mr. Oskanian a very successful book tour. But I still think we need some answers.
Obama Appointed Vartan Gregorian in the white house.
I never felt that Barack would betray us.
We suffered worse than slaves.
We reached from farther than Africa to USA--
From Anatolia where our ancestors
Before Christ where there.
Slaves lived in hope to be free
But our fleshes were thrown in deserts
Then traveled through rivers to enter Gulf Sea
The Bedouins saved us, they know well
Who are we and what others did to us.
However, we never lost hopes
With Siamanto we still could sing.
That we will sing thorough the hopeful roads
To our written destiny.
Everyone know us from East to West
We are born Honest
Our genes are blessed
By talented— kindness.
Obama can’t slay us,
He knows, we don’t have scimitars.
But we have well documented arts.
We have soulful poems for every one
Who knows human right.
First off, it is NOT necessary to have Armenian heritage, and Vanessa Kachadurian YOU HAVE no idea what you are talking about. WHY ARE YOU not volunteering your time in Armenia making things better? You obviously have so much free time. Since you obviously claim to have heritage, why are you not helping families in Armenia keep thier children (fundraise and give the money to families in Amenia) and why have you not adopted, oh wait, many poeple know why that can never happen.....
The West doesn't care about Armenia, never did and never will. Most important people in the US are on the Muslim payroll in one way or another. Armenia can only survive by being in strong alliance with Russia and thereby the SCO, the rising power in the East.
I agree that the west does not care about Armenia. The U.S., France,Italy, & Great Britain betrayed Armenia after the lst World War when Armenia was guaranteed to be a free Independent Republic by the Sevres Treaty & signed by Turkey, Armenia & l6 other nations but she got betrayed by the Allies. And I agree that Armenia is in alliance with Russia since the Turks are using America to push Armenia to return Artsakh to the Azeris which will never happen. If the Azeris attack Artsakh the Armenians will not only gain more territory but will destroy the Baku Oil Fields which the Americans & British financed. If America doesent wake up then the Moslems & Jews will take over this world. Five Jewish Organizations are under the payroll of the Turks to deny the Armenian Genocide and I say shame on those Jews for doing so when they went thru a Genocide in WWII. The Jews now control the State Dept. and nobody says a word. What a disatrous world we live in.
Beautiful depiction of a very special place and person. thank you for this.
I write this with a heavy heart and many thanks to ALL the people who have share their stories, kind words, cards and phone calls to my family and my self. I cannot began to thank you all for the kindness and out pouring love you have showed to me and my family during this very difficult time. DerVartan was not only a priest, he was a husband, father, brother, cousin and a friend to thousands. DerVartan touched everyone he talked to, he never walked away from someone in need. I only hope and pray that all the people who knew DerVartan will carry him in your heart each and every day. Follow what he has done in his life and take one moment each day and touch someone else's life and help them somehow. Each time you do something for someone else think of DerVartan and smile. We all know that special grin that he would give us and it will make someone else's day,too.Der Vartan always told me " I will never be a millionaire but I am a billionaire in my friendships". I want to thank everyone from east to west,north to south you all know who you are and what you have done for me and my family over the last 3 1/2 months.My heart is broken and I have many tears in the past but each time one of you touch me, I feel Der Vartan in all of you. Keep his memory ALIVE and his Spirit in your heart! I love you all. Yeretzgeen Pauline Kassabian
By A Reader on June 17th, 2009 at 12:40 am
What are you suggesting Gary? Should Armenia bow down to turkey and apologize for demanding justice for their 1.5 million dead ancestors? Or should Armenia give up the lands that belongs to us when 30,000 brave men lost their lives protecting it?
No--Let me try again.
Armenia has failed to develop into a reasonable approximation of a country that will pass for a democracy.
It has had time to meet its commitments to the EU and others inconcluding my own country (USA) and hasn't.
The question becomes why should the EU or USA continue supporting Armenia when Armenia won't do for itself and seems to prefer being a client of Russia and the diaspora. Personally, I hope that aid continues but if aid is lessened Armenia should take a hard look at itself and ask how it contributed to the loss of confidence by the west.
Azeri nationalist and Turkish nationalist want the blockade to continue because it keeps Armenia weak. Also, there are some Armenians who want the blockade to continue rather than have anything to do with Turkey before there is justice for the genocide. I understand the emotion. We need to be more cooly calculating and less hysterical.
I am of the view that Armenia needs to have a long term strategy that may involve some distasteful steps in the short term. There will be no equity or justice until Armenia is a strong state that has a place at the table of nations who really drive events across the globe. This will not happen while Armenia remains blockaded--Turks know it.
If Armenia's leadership can get the blockade lifted and retain NKR that serves our long term interest of strengthening the Armenian State. There can never by adequate recompense for the genocide. We need to focus on building the Armenia of 2050 because that will be the best way to deal with 1915. I think Armenia's leadership is doing the right thing for the people of Armenia. Some in the diaspora might not like Armenians and Turks talking but those folks seem to be living in California or Massachusetts. Bravado is more easily asserted while safely removed from the conflict zone. Those living in a blockaded state surrounded by Turks to the east, west and in the south (millions of azeris in the northwest of Iran) seem far more open to dialogue.
As for the use of the word Genocide by President Obama or anyone else. It doesn't matter. If Turkey says yes we did it--does anyone really believe they will then cede back to us western armenia or give us a black sea port or billions of dollars. If you are waiting for that to happen before opening a dialogue with Turkey then Armenia will slowing become even more isolated and irrelevant on the world stage. That is a formula that ensures Turkey triumphs. I am confident we will prevail in the long term . The best justice maybe the only justice for our lost families and relatives will be an economically strong, politically democratic Armenia living under the rule of law. An open border is necessary but not sufficient for Armenia to prevail--but it is one very important step.
Armenians should not participate in a such commission, cause the road map
Is not been accepted or approved by the Armenian people to begin with.
Hye, Why a historical commission? Because Turkey wants another delaying ploy? Together, the International Genocide organizaitons, 20 nations of the world, 42 of the 50 United States of America.. Archives in Washington DC, in European countries, and in the Vatican, all substantiate the Genocide of the Armenian nation by the Ottoman Turks and as well, all the years of the subsequent Turkish leaderships in their convoluted denials.
Hence, millions of peoples, today and over the years, have acknowledged and recognized the planned treatments of mans' inhumanity to man against the Christian Armenians. Too, the destruction of the sites of Armenian origin to destroy/eliminate evidences of Armenian culture from their own lands of nearly 4,000 years.
Now, a 'history' project requested by the US/Turkey? History exists, it's just Turkey who cannot read it nor write their history. And now, it seems, some members of the U.S. administration are unfamiliar with the even archives in Washington DC. (which I assume to be a requirement for Mr. Gordon).
And yet, while Turkey omits the Genocide of the Armenians in their own history as taught to their youth, they also teach their youth that the victims of this Genocide are the enemies of the Turks. Yes, we do seek justice and more, for we have a covenant to all those we lost to the Genocide and our survivors who lived with all the vile memories of that Genocide. For my grandparents and their families I never knew...
And yet, the history exists - no need to rehash.... Sadly, there are those who can not read..... who will not read... and, maybe will repeat history, for in their ignorance they're also politcally correct... but morally? Manooshag
It's obvious such a commission would be stacked against the Armenians like a bad deck of cards.
In Boston, on Friday night, people were VERY tough on Amb. Y, as expected, which is not surprising since we know that some other even more populous and supposedly hardline Armenian communities (I won't mention their names) are sometimes pushovers and ... well, I won't dwell on that point.
The Boston people, mostly *neutrals* and non-affiliated I should note, stated their beliefs to Amb. Y., with a question added at the end. This is the way to do it since, of course, she did not truly "answer" any question, as we would expect. She is a diplomat, after all.
This is what she was "asked":
1. Why is RNK not a direct participant in the OSCE talks? (She said because that is what the ROA government agreed to years ago under Kocharian).
2. America's strategic goal is to get into the Caucasus and get at the oil and gas ? (She said oil and gas were part of US interests, yes, but that the US really just wanted everyone in the Caucasus to be happy and hug and kiss the US).
3. She was asked about the joint historical commission proposal and whether slavery or the Holocaust occurred should be subject to similar joint commissions. (She said that the US just wanted Armenia and Turkey to talk and be nice to each other, and that she thought Armenians and Turks should have more contact with one another so that they learn they have more in common than there are differences. It was touching, Everyone in the audience started to cry and sob uncontrollably with these comforting, humane words from this saint of a woman).
4. She was asked why some of Armenia's MCC grants are being withheld by the US when Georgia and Azerbaijan's human rights record is worse. (She said Armenia agreed to certain standards and should abide by them.)
5. She was challenged, on the other hand, as to whether US criticism of Armenia depends on whether President Sargsian "plays ball" with the US and upholds US interests. I forget what she said, and does it even matter what she said?
She was NOT asked whether she, as a Jew, whose family reportedly experienced the Holocaust, would mind if the US did not acknowledge the Holocaust. She was not asked about how she felt when she learned that some Jewish American lobbying groups oppose recognition of the Armenian genocide.
She is a Princeton graduate and supposedly has been in the foreign service for a long time, reportedly since college. On one occasion she apparently pretended not to hear a question. Seems she needed time to formulate a lie - er, I mean answer.
She said she had been travelling so much that she did not know the situation in Iran over the last several days. That gives you an idea of how much you are going to get out of her. My advice is to educate your fellow audience members with your questions and let her know that we are onto her and Obama's game.
I can't wait to ask Ambassador Yovanovitch a very tough question in New York!
U.S. policies toward Armenia and its people are totally unacceptable!
Oil, gas, and oil. That's all the U.S. really cares about. They don't give a damn about human rights, democracy and economic development in Armenia. They have genocide denial written all over their faces. And, they are trying to advance their deplorable agenda by cozying up with and pressuring illegitimate Armenian authorities (smiles, handshakes, bribes and threats).
Please attend these meetings and speak out. Don't let her shame you, your people and homeland again!
Question 1:
President Obama has advocated self-determination and democracy for many peoples, including most recently, Iranians. The vast majority of the citizens of the Nagorno-Karabagh autonomous region voted for self-determination during the Soviet era according to the laws in existence at that time. Consequently they were subjected to an attempted genocide by the government of Azerbaijan. Currently Nagorno-Karabagh is an evolving democracy. Azerbaijan is an autocratic government firmly in the hands of the Aliev family with no clear path to democracy in the foreseeable future. Moreover Azerbaijan continues to threaten Armenia and Karabagh with military force, and has demonstrated its attitude towards Armenian by utterly eliminating all traces of 2000 - 3000 year old Armenian cultural and religious monuments in Nakhichevan. Yet, the Obama administration advocated breaking parity on military aid to Armenia and Azerbaijan in favor of Azerbaijan (of course!).
There appears no prospect of Azerbaijan agreeing to self-determination for Karabagh. The Azeri government has stated this numerous times. How can the current administration with a straight face be an advocate of the universal rights to self determination when it denies this right for Karabagh? How can the Obama administration claim it is any different from previous administrations?
Ambassador Yovanovitch replied something to the effect that the Karabagh issue has not been solved. I stated that the main issue has been solved. Karabagh is independent. The issue now is that its independence is not recognized by the US and other major nations.
Ambassador Yovanovitch stated that Karabagh’s independence is not even recognized by Armenia. I replied that Armenia does not formally recognized Karabagh as an independent state due to the pressure applied to Armenia by the US and other powers. But in fact (defacto) Armenia DOES recognize Karabagh’s independence.
Question 2 – did not get a chance to ask:
Senator Barack Obama, Senator Hillary Clinton, Senator Joseph Biden, advisor Samantha Power, Secretary Solarz and others in the current administration have all insisted it is inconsistent with American values to not publicly acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. Yet President Obama evaded the use of the word “Genocide” on his April 24 statement. I was in Armenia at the time. The Armenians who thought the US had regained its principals now believe that President Obama is just another opportunistic politician. Moreover American Armenians who supported Obama feel betrayed. Brave Turks who are openly acknowledging the Armenian Genocide at great personal risk (remember Hrant Dink and other imprisoned intellectuals) are left without the support of the United States. Yes or no! Will President Obama acknowledge the Genocide? Not a tragedy, not mass killings, not a Medz Yeghern… GENOCIDE???
Question 3 – asked after the formal question and answer session:
Why does the Obama administration advocate violation of parity on military aid to Armenia and Azerbaijan, just as the previous administration has? Azerbaijian has constantly pledged to use military force to “resolve” the Karabagh issue.
Ambassador Yovanovitch stated that there were trafficking issues in Azerbaijan they were concerned with, and anyway the military aid being offered to both countries is “non-lethal” aid. I stated that a “non-lethal” radio can direct a lethal air strike. A non-lethal vehicle can position a lethal howitzer.
Perhaps the Hayasdan government's anti-international adoption policies and processes can be changed so Armenians in the Diaspora, who have been blessed with the means to provide these beautiful children with a family environment, can do so. I personally investigated this, and the bureaucracy and "unstated costs" associated with such adoptions, was more than anyone should have to face, particularly someone of Armenian heritage. The policies absolutely drive parents-to-be to other jurisdictions. I could've lived with the financial shake-downs, but the system then closed. Why? Because certain politicians have a "moli" belief that they "don't need any outsiders to raise our children". Truly heartbreaking.
Joseph, who is this Secretary Solarz you mention? Is it Turkophile Stephen Solarz the former congressman?
Why congratulations? This man--Handel--still has a job. There is nothing to congratulate our community about. Also interesting to see the hockey lament came first.
Our communities should have refused to meet with her. The idea that we must sit and listen to duplicity is sickening. Our precious energy should not be spent this way.
But now that these meetings have been organized and accepted by Armenian community organizations, it becomes necessary for Armenians across the nation to attend these meetings to confront Yovanovitch with the truth.
In Boston, even though tough questions were asked and Yovanovitch dodged them all, Armenians sat politely and exhibited respectful behavior towards a person who has been sent around to propagate and disseminate harmful policies towards the Armenian nation and people. It’s too bad no one brought a rotten egg or tomato to throw.
Why was the US Senate’s “hold” on the appointment of the unrepentant, revisionist Yovanovitch removed in the first place? This has not been addressed in the Armenian press at all.
I agree that we as a community must confront Yavanovitch with tough questions. At the same time,there is something pathetic about us Armenians - and I count myself as one of them - wracking our brains to come up with just the "right" question to "ask."
Obama, Biden, and Hillary Clinton broke their promise to us. They have had nothing to say to us about that before or after April 24. Total silence. Moreover, Samantha Power, who is allegedly a friend (even though she once bad mouthed the idea of Armenian reparations for the genocide), has also been silent.
If the Obama administration took Armenians seriously, there would at least have been public apologies, or high level meetings with Obama officials. Instead, they hand us off to Ambassador Yovanovitch.
And what are we going to do about it all? We are going to do nothing. Come to think of it, have any of you heard our part-Armenian Congresswoman Anna Eshoo and Jackie Speier complain to the White House? With friends like these, who needs enemies. And where are our "famous" Armenians, like George Deukmejian and Vartan Gregorian? Apparently in a coma.
May I be frank about some of us Armenian Americans? We are pathetic to look to such "friends". We are always looking for 'friends" who say nice things about us but who do next to nothing. We fawn, scrape, shuffle and bow. And for what? To get slapped in the face? In our own way, we are as bad as Serge Sargsian. I don't see the fight in us anymore. We continue to play the same old establishment game.
Hi Lalai,
I find great comfort in your words. The spiritual journey you are on speaks to my heart. Keep writing my friend.
love,
Elize
Armenia has made a terrible strategic blunder. It will be easy for Turkey to obfuscate the results of the historical commission. Armenia, however, will have the heavy lifting to counter a Turkish deception (and we can guess what it will be) and Armenia will be vilified for not going along with the genocide being ‘unfortunate incidents’. Agents and paid mouthpieces for Turkey will pepper the press and media with disinformation.
How pathetic that Armenia fell into this trap, but why? Did it think that Obama would recognize the genocide? Was it not obvious that Turkey laid this trap in fear of Obama recognizing the genocide (consider the timing). Now turkey knows that Obama is made of mush and will not worry about him much on future April 24ths. Obama has swung US foreign policy so much further to the interests of Turkey and Azerbaijan they know that Obama will not rewind it for Armenia.
Armenia will only survive by staying in the Russian orbit. The West doesn't give a nickel for Armenia. Diaspora Armenians had better take their Western centric blinders off and open their eyes. America is becoming like Germany in the 20th century that always tilted to the interests of Islamic states against the interests and even survival of the Eastern Orthodox peoples. Increasingly since including Clinton through Bush to Obama VIPs around the President and in Congress are on the Muslim payroll one way or another.
Just a little correction ;-) Detroit was one of the original SIX teams in the NHL, not five! Montreal, Toronto, New York, Boston, Detroit and Chicago.
And we all know who'll win it next year ----> Les Canadiens de Montréal!
Very nice article though!
Jacques
Thank you for pointing out the mistake, Jacques. We made the correction.
dear ed,
your letter was unbeleivable. it was the essence of not only der vartan, but what he did for the community. your description of the ladies was amazing, spot on. the visual of paris being blind , roxie being deaf ,but yet they knew how to help each other. they were more than survivors. der vartan knew this and took great pleasure in the experience of it all. there were many times i thanked him for looking after my Grandma. his comment to me always with his index finger extended "it is i who is lucky to serve them, my flock" der vartan you are the last of the true christians who dawn the cloth. i am sure the the ladies are giving you an unbeleivable mezza while God looks on with a smile.
our armenian communities will miss you my frien der vartan.
I congratulate Bernard Nazarian for his correct analysis of what should be the basis of Armenia's foreign policy. Vartan Oskanian should read it.
Bravo Bernard.
Gary- I agree with your statement: "Armenia has failed to develop into a reasonable approximation of a country that will pass for a democracy."
-only problem is... neither has many other countries including Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia, or currently Iran for that matter (include a few more if you please). Though, I do understand what you mean by that.
"There can never by adequate recompense for the genocide....if Turkey says yes we did it–does anyone really believe they will then cede back to us western armenia or give us a black sea port or billions of dollars."
Well for many Armenians, there is. Many nationalists believe recognition is the reconcilation needed to 'fix' the relationship and long-term stability for the region. I mean after-all, if people can come to terms with the past, it might have a more enlightening future. But under some laws, reconcilation may require $$$, land, etc.- that seems to be more terrifying for a state.
"The best justice maybe the only justice for our lost families and relatives will be an economically strong, politically democratic Armenia living under the rule of law. An open border is necessary but not sufficient for Armenia to prevail–but it is one very important step."
-Well said, a healthy and economic Armenia is the real solution the country needs.
The problem with adoption is that these children are classified as "social orphans" they do NOT have the proper relinquishment from the bio parent that is required by many countries to obtain an Orphan Visa.
98% of the children are social orphans, their parents don't have the means to feed or care for them.
Lets start by building a strong Armenia, get the children trained and educated with proper skills they can use on the outside when they turn 18. Also lend your support to. Society of Orphaned Armenian Relief.
www.soar-us.org
Marty many American Armenians do adopt the children. Unfortunately a great many of them want health babies which is sad. Myself, and others we are happy with the older children.
the Special Needs children, handicapped and Down Syndrome are being adopted out very easily by Odars in the USA mostly very religious people.
The French Armenians adopt a great many of the children too.
Well now is it officially a "Genocide" ? This need to have others use the "G" world really rubs me the wrong way. I understand why people and organizations work for having it be called "Genocide" but it somewhat misses the point .
The community seems to get a sense of statisfaction or at least treats it as important news everytime important/public people and organizations/countries use the word "Genocide" . I assume the idea is that the more people use the word and the more it will put pressure on on Turkey to do the same. It has not been working so far. Its nice that countries like France or Canada officially acknowledge it, and I am sure it annoys Turkey to no end...but in the end what does it really achieve ? Whether everyone acknowledges it or nobody acknowledges it, it does not change the facts of what happened from 1915-1923. (or put another way, no matter how much you call it a dog, if it quacks, and has wings...its a duck).
What ultimately matters is what Turkey says and does. What everyone else thinks is details. It does not seem like Turkey is going to be shamed into acknowledging anything... furthermore, countries have no intention of backing up their words with deeds much as they did against South Afirica. So we in the diaspora spend all our energy to get these different bodies to us the "G" word so that we can validate to the Turks what we knew all along.
Dear Tatul Sonentz-Papazian,
thank you so much for your beautiful, meaningful poem... I am certain, that every Iranian will deeply appreciate this sad peom...
Thank you once again.
My warmest regards,
Dela
Armo, if everyone on the playground keeps calling it a dog, even if it quacks and has wings, it will finally be accepted as a dog. If Turkey sees every major player in international politics calling the mass killings of Armenians; Genocide, it will inevitably have to come to grips with its own past and acknowledge it. If we say that it is not important for other nations to acknowledge Genocide as such, Turkey will have a reason for not acknowledging. "After all, the others do not think it is. Why should I?" Do you see why it is so important for world gevernments to call it as it is; a Genocide.
I understand your point of view, just because some others do not call it a Genocide, it does not change the fact of it being one. But this fact must become common knowledge, not to affirm, but to give it strong backing.
i spear headed a "jacket drive" via our sunday school at st. mary armenian church in costa mesa, ca. i made it very clear that they have to be in excellent condition and must be laundered. if i could have the address of the zadig orphanage, i am able to ship the items directly through the united shipping group out of glendale, ca. albeit, it will take 3 months, but not painfully costly.
so if you could give me other armenian orphanages' addresses, i could send them jackets as well.
so please get back to me, somewhat asap.
thanx
I don't understand why the Armenian diaspora is obsessed with calling the mass killings Genocide. We, most Turks, do believe that many Armenians, Turks and Kurds lost their souls as a result of the rift between Ottoman Empire, Armenias, Russians and the Western Powers.
You are calling for everyone to recognize those killings and decry the demonization of the Armenians during the last days of the Ottoman Empire. However, you are demonizing Turks yourselves. When I speak with most Armenias they are about to kill me with their looks. I am as innocent as you claim those Armenias were. First, be rational and don't see us as your enemies...You never even want to listen to our story... Yes, we condemn the killings of Armenians of all sorts; however, we claim that the people responsible for these crimes were punished by the Goverment of that time and it was not a State-orchestrated atrocity. So, lots of questions remain as to whether or not we can call these killings as genocide.
Israeli lobby will always back Turkey because they need Turkey. Plus, they would not want the G-word to be used for everyone's death...
I hope my words don't get censored. Thank you.
Dear Ana Kasparian,
You need to grow up and see how your name will be characterized in front of many Armenians. To be even remotely affiliated with this group (TYT) is dangerous! Remember, the Young Turk Party was instrumental in the destruction of the Armenian population in our ancient lands, and to somehow be on shows with them means you condone their actions now and from a long-time's past.
You may be a small pea with some sense and reason, but you can not go against a whole movement that is after humanity's downfall...
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive!” --Sir Walter Scott
Sincerely,
A Conscerned Armenian Compatriot
Dear John,
Yes it was war, but were we given the luxury as Turkish citizens to be called into arms? Indirectly we were, we were killed as Turkish soldiers. Do you think that Americans would kill other Americans that drifted to the enemies lines? You can't give me any solid reason that in WWI the Armenians were the agressors in the war with the Ottoman Empire. The fact of the matter is: The Young Turks were behind the uprising, and when you isolate the leaders of all these instigators they were just like you. A politician on both sides of the fence member of British-Israel. I don't buy your garbage!
Sincerely,
A Conscerned Armenian Compatriot
Dear LaughingatYou,
I appreciate your candor in your last article, but the fact of the matter is, we are not going to take a passive stance on defamatory commentary. Being smart is knowing when to step in and reject your vile sound bite, not to laugh it off like all the other losers would after a hard-days work at the local comedy store. In retrospect, only to subtly accept your sound bite through laughter (the easy gate-way), making way for more agressive approaches of defamation thereafter. We act the same way as the Jews would act if put in the same position, to hit it where it hurts... We still haven't mastered the way of counter-attack, but we're smart we eventually will! Make no mistake, just as we were being attacked in Ottoman Turkey through communal envy, we feel that in a post War era in the U.S. feelings in the media haven't really changed. Through being complaisant and passive a victim only encourages more aggression by the opposition! Sorry we can not be a model victim for you and your staff.
Sincerely,
A Conscerned Armenian Compatriot
Ozzy:
Just because Turks and Kurds died in WW I does not mean they didn't commit a genocide. Approximatly 7.2 million Germans died in WW II, nobody rational is makes the argument "plenty of Germans died too, it was war, it was not a Holocaust " It is just about the most ignorant agrument one put forward.
You didn't kill anyone and so in that sense you are innocent, but if you defend mass murder don't expect anyone to reach out to you in friendship.
States apologize for the wrong doings of their past all the time. The senate just recently passed a resolution for slavery. Turkey celebrates the achievements of its past ancestors, they also need to admit to their failures.
Your last line is very telling. Its not that Isreal does not think a genocide happened they simply will not say it for political reasons. Same with U.S Adiminstation. Its not factual dispute. Your in your own world of denial if you think otherwise.
The easiest thing to do was admit to the Genocide 80 years ago and most of this would have been over. But it didn't work out that way....and now your country faces disgrace one little article at a time.
I personally resent having to plead our case to these politicians to use the "G" word. It's silly but I suppose necessary. I disagree with Master P. We are not going to shame you into anything, your country has none.
Finally your words got posted because unlike Turkey people here are free to express what they think.
Dear LaughingatYou,
I do appreciate the level of candor you have shown in your last article, but the fact of the matter is speaking about our Nation, our People, or our Cause is of sensitive matter to us. Being smart is to know when to step-in and reject your vile sound-bite, not by sitting passive and complaisant, as the latter only encourages more bias and more aggression. We still are a young race in this country, to know the art of war takes some getting used to. Your radio sound-bite was nothing but hate speech in my opinion. Try directing that type of radio show to the Jewish community I am sure they will come to arms just as fast. So, I am sorry that we as an Armenian community can not be considered one of your model victims, as we are now finding out the ways on how the game is played. Like Chess, we’ll master that art of the play in due time just as well.
Sincerely,
A Conscerned Armenian Compatriot
Dear G:
In WW II, 7.5 million Germans died. Almost 5.5 of the dead were military. More Germans died then Jews... that logic of many people died, sad time, confusion of war is about the most ignorant, low-level, weak-minded argument you can possibly make.
Reading about the poverty in Armenia tears my heart out. Really, suffering never ceases on our race within nor without.
If high rises are all over the place, who are these Mafia types that allow this penury to continue? Rentals in Erivan are as high or higher than here in the States, why?
The article opens eyes to reality...especially the poor kids who don't deserve this.
I am struck by the extreme dissonance between the reality expressed in this article and the attitude of many Armenians in the USA. Here in the US we find people who thump their chest bravely asserting we must not open the border--we must not talk to the Turks--we can carry the burden of unremitting poverty--we must not bend or compromise. Of course, they are sitting comfortably and safely in the USA while expressing these brave sentiments. How tragic for the people of Armenia.
So how will the openning of the blockade and forgetting the Genocide help these poor people. All it will do is bring more profit to the importers of goods from turkey and Europe. Prices will drop by a small amount which will do little to help the poor. Lets first get rid of corruption, greed and incompitance among our leaders (i use that term loosely they are more like reactors to moves made by others). A weak corrupt government will not be able to manage and protect people especially the poor from the turkic business invasion that will follow. Cheap goods and foods flowiing into the country will reduce local jobs and hurt the poor who normally work in factories and farms. So Harb you are wrong us in the US are most concerned about the people of Armenia. If the people don't stay there is no country to fight for but if the people are overrrun by a hostile turk country who pretends to play nice( and apperantly very good at fooling the "leaders") then then too there will be no country to fight for.
Think it's time Armenians wake up and stop lighting candles. Obviously, it does not work.
Mr. Vartabedian -- Thank you for your story. Your photo of the woman filling buckets of water in the village of Dogh reminds me so much of my grandmother. Her Armenian resiliance and determination was remarkable, and she would be heartsick to find that Armenia is still facing such trials!
Leo:
So what your saying without any real proof is that if the borders open, prices on goods will drop but not enough for the poor to afford to purchase them...but will drop enough to cause unemployment among the people working in factories and farms. The basis for this economic analysis is what ? Do you know what goods/products are actually produced in Armenia that Turkish goods are going to undermine? Has it occurred to you that its the price of Russian imports that is going to drop because they will be faced with Turkish competition.
Harb is correct, while the focus of the diaspora is the recognition of the Genocide, whereas the people living there are suffering, ask the people in Tom's article how much their lives will change of the Turkey recognizes the genocide.
Leo, I can agree with the need to rid Armenia of corruption both public and private.
Developing good governance and opening the border are both necessary for Armenia to prosper and become a viable state.
On the other hand, I can't ascribe to the idea that denying our poor cheaper and more basic necessities really doesn't make a difference. Doesn't make a difference to who? It apparently doesn't make much difference to those who enjoy the bounty of the USA.
When steps to provide cheaper and more plentiful food for poor Armenians is not acceptable because it means Turkish business people might profit, then the threat to Armenia's future is in the mirror.
When denying benefit to Turks is more important than sustaining those Armenians living in poverty
then we need to begin questioning our ideology.
You state that the poor of Armenia need protection from Turks offering cheaper food and basic necessities. I agree that the poor need protection but I am not sure it is from business people who offer cheaper food and more trade.
I had tears in my eyes when I read this article.
How can the government allow this to happen to its own citizens? How long will these poor people have to endure this abuse?
I agree 100% with Dr Leo about getting rid of corruptions, greed and thinking only for their own political stomachs. I have so many names for our government and they are not pretty names. However, I am tired of them taking advantage of its own citizens and treating them as animals...
Turkey is very very smart. It has a very good plan to take over Armenian one stone at a time. By pretending to be open to friendly relations by using a plan is a hidden agenda of destroying Armenia and getting what they want. The Armenian government stupidly believing the false promises fell into the trap which will continue to sqeeze Armenia until either become fed up and fight back or simply lose our land.
I am not a politician and don't understand alot about politics.. but what is there not to see and understand.. that Armenian is being played by Turkey just like a cat playing with its captured mouse.
To our govt: Wake up and smell the destruction...have guts and stand up for your country.. protect your people and protect your history
To our Armenians: Wake up and stand together.. Help each other.. Be each other's supporters.. Do not let your own down and then step on them.. Pick them up and brush the dust.. ONLY working together that we will become successful..Only loving and supporting each other we will overcome obstacles...
Armenia forever..
I agree with RootArmo. One cannot forget the Russian involvement in Armenia. When you say Armenia must stand up and protect its people, you are forgetting that Armenia is not quite independent. It is in the hands of Russia, who controls its borders! RootArmo makes a point that I didn't realize before, it is Russia that would lose out economically in opening the borders with Turkey, not Armenia. So, the leaders of Armenia do what they're told by powers outside, not by their own people, as is the case in any third world dictatorships. As long as Armenia has poor relations with its neighbors, the longer it will have to rely on Russia to protect it.
The crowd was quite tough that night wanting to send their opinion to the Ambassador's bosses. There were questions regarding the cuts in the aid to Armenia. There are two major funds one of them being the Millenium Challenge which Armenia and Georgia receive. The MC apparently use various metrics and markers to determine how much aid to give out. There were cuts in that fund to Armenia becuase of the last years elections and the Yerevan elections according to the ambassador. She also noted that Azerbaijan does not recieve MC aid. She at one point said that they don't need it and at another point that they did not meet the requirements. I looked at the MC site and the markers for Az were indeed worse than Georgia and Armenia.
There were tough questions and comments. In fact in one particular comment she turned noticeably red. I can't remember what was different in that particular statement read by a young man.
It's worth pointing out that Armenia has been receiving aid from the US and not loans. At times it felt like the diasporan armenians were not appreciative of this, even though the questions of US interest in the Caucases in light of Az oil are completely legit and needed to be voiced.
If you want the G-word to be used so badly, then dont rely on politicians to do it for you. History has already judged what happened--it was genocide. Suppose it finally is considered a genocide...what do you expect to happen then? We dont need any sort of fake validation by a self-interested elite, it wont get anyone anywhere--its a road to contradiction.
This article is a case in point; i dont understand why we have to associate ourselves positively with everyone who recognizes the genocide--I wonder what this ambassador has to say about the massacre in Gaza in December/January. Armenians could do without the support of such exclusionary states as Israel. If this "Cause" is about values, we'd be alot smarter in how we go about reflecting them.
If anything Saakashvili's visit to Armenia and his condemnation of Russian policy on Georgia and Armenia only underscores his own hypocrisy in Georgia's very own disregard for Armenians living in Javakhk.
The Georgian leaders visit to Dzidzernagapert does not excuse violating basic human rights of Armenians living in Georgia.
Shame on her.
This statement says it all:
"I know there is disappointment and even anger at President Obama's April 24th statement… But President Obama went further in his statement than any previous American president."
The underlying premise of this statement reveals the administrations true intent in scorig points over previous adminsitrations rather than confronting genocide by over-ridding foreign governemnt imposed gag rules.
Recognition NOT feeble attribution will effectively address America's stance on gencide.
Great.
Now he's gonna get fired.
we should stop associating our cause with sudan. these two israel allies (turks and sudan) are pressured by them using the same method and we have willingly become their toys. we waste our energy time and resources for the benefit of israel.
READ MY WRITING.
THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH AND IT SHOULDN'T PASS MUSTARD ANY MORE.
Describing the twentieth century’s first genocidal crime against humanity for what it is; is only regurgitating what historical experts at the IAGS have said for decades. Let the Ambassador endorse a justice commission for the Armenian Genocide and convince his cronies in Washington and Jerusalem to do the same and then maybe I will have more appreciation for his supposedly frank account of undeniable history. Until then he is aiding and abetting a government who shamelessly continues to deny and revise history for political gain.
What a refreshing piece! Lots to absorb and digest here.
David, where the heck have you been hiding????
This is an insightful geo-strategic analysis and exactly the type of 3- dimensional thinking our community needs to hear more about. Lets hope this refreshingly unshackled perspective will help shed light on the perils of static slave mentality and herald in a more dynamic geo-political mindset within our communities. Well done please do write again!
where can we get this book from?
"Haght and the Haghtetsis"
i looked in hairenik . com and could not find it in order to buy one.
thanks
ara
I don't trust a word coming out of Yovanovitch's mouth. As far as I'm concerned she's full of hot air and takes us for fools. If Obama and the rest of the backstabbers thought she would be able to prance through our communities in a tactfully choreographed PR stunt and cool heads amongst our leaders they thought wrong.
Yovanovitch is lucky we didn't start throwing rotten tomatoes at her! Perhaps she should take that message back to Washington with her as well.
Frankly, we're probably better off as a community without her. I personally would rather not have her eyes or ears anywhere near our communities as she may be getting more from us then we are from her...
Why is it that I do not see articles in the Armenian American media in which the writer asks audience members what they thought of the presentation? It would make for some good reading, and be very informative. Non-Armenian papers do this, but I rarely see it in our press. Makes you kind of wonder why, doesn't it?
Great read, fascinating elaboration of the invisible borders in our lives, of being Armenian.
My current fascination of borders involves those in the world which are unnatural: the afghan/pakistan border splitting the Pashtun, the pakistan/india border splitting the Punjab, the Shia muslims split between Iraq/Iran. This hits close to home to as our border with Azherbejian splits Armenians from Nagarno-Kharabah. The common thread between all these borders: remnants of imperialism. It will be interesting to see how these border will continue in the future, as I doubt they will remain so.
Look forward to the next article.
"If Turkey recognized the Armenian Genocide, would the U.S. then do the same?"
The obvious answer to this queston, "yes, of course," clearly illustrates that U.S. policy on this human rights issue is set in Ankara, not Washington.
It's this reality that explains why U.S. diplomats so ardently resist - in awkward and even ridiculous ways - the prospect of meaningful, transparent, and honest discourse on this subject.
Hi Ara,
You may order a copy of the book by sending $35 to:
David Amiraian
2 Rudder Lane
Latham, New York 12110
Please make your check or money order payable to:
Marian N. Amiraian
Today's reality is that no Armenians currently lives on the 80,000 Sq miles of land in question. The chain of events that would need to take place for Turkey to give lands back to Armenia as part of geo-political decision is so remote, that it cannot be considered even an academic excercise. Let's come up with a chain of events where the entire world will speak French
Today's reality is that Armenia DOES have control over 30,000 sq miles. You want to be real visionary start thinking is possible with what we have. I completely reject the premise that the only way the economy can prosper is by having a port. Does Switzerland have a port? How about Austria or Czech Republic ? Let's not make excuses for our own shortcomings in governing our country.
I know its not epic, heroic, or satisfies the need to be a true revolutionary , but there is 30,000 sq miles of free land that is waiting for ideas of the diaspora who have the luxuary of time to think about improving the lives of those who live in Armenia. Let's start with a flushing toliet in every home and tap water that one can drink. It does not even require Isreal to change its attitude toward the Kurds.
“All Armenians are liars”,
The Turkish authorities, say!
All Armenians are liars
Turkish politicians say.
All Armenians vanished...
Who can speak from their graves?
If there were graves
All turned sands on Der-Zor lands.
Yet, you... who ignore our genocide
Who is alive, who is called human,
From any nation, any faith, any ethnicity and any race,
You human, if you are looking
To enjoy Turkish liras...
Have you planned what you’ll buy by that?
What Turkish authorities are giving you?
Once that wealth, belonged to worthy Armenians.
All were stolen..., not only stolen
But nastiest… killed and confiscated.
What you would buy by Armenian blood
A jewel to your lover or child?
That vanished blood will curse you till end.
That is real honest generations wealth
From vanished Armenians’ undried sweat!
Rootarmo: Switzerland, Austria and the Czech republic are European countries and don't have Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia and Iran as neighbors. A link to be black sea could totally help Armenia, but highly unrealistic except for people with geopolitic aspirations. Hard times.. no leader is taking care of the 30.000sq miles... Armenia does need a link to Europe but with what cost.. opening it's border with Turkey?
Press coverage was banned??? It appears the Ambassador has lost her sense of direction and is taking cues from the Iranian dictatorship, rather than American democracy.
Yovanovitch is a distraction. Obama and the State Department put her in place to keep our community preoccupied. She’s the official buffer zone between our community and the State Department that keeps heat away from the people that have power. She’s essentially the punching bag our community has at its disposal to vent our frustration on. Her job is to smile in the face of this anger and keep us quiet by reassuring our community that everything will be fine.
I agree with CK and Levon, Yovanovitch is a puppet. Why are we wasting our time with her when we could be spending precious time pressuring the people behind the scenes that actually pull her strings????????
Giving Saakhashvili a medal is a shame. It shows the government's medal in Armenia does not worth anything anymore and they give it to anyone.
without sounding cranky, you need more Jews on your side, look what they've accomplished for Turkey...
Marty, I don't think getting the Jews or any other ethnic group, politician or academic on our side is the panacea here. Over a span of about 100 years, Armenians have learned to trust our own for good reason and even then things are tentative at best (ex. the current Armenian governments reckless actions). I think as a community we've given up with this concept of instilling hope into others to make change on our behalf...ie. the Obama fiasco and his so called promise of change via Turkeys gag rules on Americas stance on genocide.
Don't get me wrong, they could be a good leverage point as Dr. Charney and others have been but I wouldn't depend on people like him or Jews in general or any other group to make headway in our cause. Marty, you make a good point that some Jews have accomplished a lot for Turkey as their surrogate liars but remember some Jews and the Jewish state in particular has much to account for as an accomplice to Turkey's denial. One day they will have to acknowledge that Israel, after the terrible tragedy of the Holocaust and its ridiculous denials, fell into the trap of denial themselves for political expediency only to cheapen and dilute Israel’s own history and its supposed lessons learned.
I look forward to reading the history of the village of Haght. While my family does not hail from that village, one of the most incredible survival stories I have ever heard was that of Mr. Vartan Anooshian, who was born there. As a baby, Anooshian's mother was forced to leave little Vartan in a tree - to ensure that the child would not give away the position of the villagers during the many Turkish onslaughts in the 1890's. She would return several days later to see that Vartan had braved the elements (and the Turks) and survived. He would later survive the Armenian Genocide and eventually come to the United States, where he devoted his life to community building and education.
I first heard Mr. Anooshian's story of survival, when he and his family generously donated gifts in honor of his 100th birthday to the ANCA back in the mid-90's. It has served to inspire me ever since.
Marty, cranky is not the word...delusional, maybe, cranky, no.
General election held on April 14th. First mention of the results are in a June 7th opinion piece by the candidate himself. I use the word "mention" carefully because that is what it essentially amounted to.
Stand by what I said, The Weekly has to decide whether to be a NEWSpaper or vehicle for furthering an agenda.
So no Lara, it does not make me happy.
Reality check: All 550 members of the Turkish Parliament are going throw the book into the garbage without reading a page.
(That is what I would do if some Turkish scholar sent me English translation of a Turkish book from 1916 proving that the Genocide did not happen).
The arbitration of 28-th Prezident of USA Woodrow Wilson from 22 November of1920, on power. It's not for genocide, it is for VW I. For Genoside can be 2 or even 3 time more.
Geopolitical situation and Changes are very very important, Baitc inchpe?s petq e menq ogtvenq, inchpe?s petq e teghabashxvenq ev gordzenq: Petq e djisht hashvarkenq naev arevmutqi ev hiusisi poxharaberuthiunnery: Aiceleq www.western-armenia.org
This is example on the comments
Genocide Victims in My Family
The story of our family. My grandfather, Mihran Dabbaghian (head of the
customs department), left for work and was never to be seen again. His
uncle, Garabed Dabbaghian, famous lawyer/judge, given the short name
Natick Effendi (“Mr. Speaker” in Turkish)—he and all his extended family
where slaughtered in Diyarbakir. We still have the official papers that state
we are owners of many lands in Diyarbakir.
Other related families are the Abrahamian (changed their surname to
Sabri to save their life—we recently discovered that their real surname
name was Abrahamian before the massacres of 1915), Chilingirian,
Kazandjian, Ouzounian, Misakian, and Simsarian (owners of silk factory
in Diyarbakir).
My granduncle’s wife, Katrina, the only survivor from Yousif Karagulla’s
family (feudal lord in Mardin), had a brother, Numan Karagulla, who was
graduated from the medical school of Harvard (1905?), and married to an
American woman named Stella. They raped his wife in front of him then
slaughtered him, his wife, and their son Philip. The genocide survivors are
American citizens. There are endless stories, so which one to tell?
My father’s family in Baghdad never experienced the same situation.
However, in Turkey, his two cousins (from the Ohanessian family) who
were medical students in Vienna (Austria) vanished when they came home
in April to Diyarbakir for the Easter holiday.
Are you going to convince the Nazi party that their beliefs and actions are wrong? As long as countries like the U.S. and England etc. don't officially recognize and condemn the Armenian Genocide, despite 40,000 pages in our own U.S archives depicting the 'Systematic Armenian race extermination", why would the perpetrating/denying Turks do so?
Turks are pure opportunists. Once they realize that there is no more opportunity in denial, that's when it will miraculiously change. They are pretty predictable. An accurate historical document isn't going to change their beleifs.
I believe at least one person was taping at her first stop in Boston, but they asked that any recordings be not made public until after July 4th (such as on youtube). The given excuse was "she would like to address the communities herself." In the case of Glendale, I think things were going to be the most heated of all meetings. That's probably why. Or they may have decided halfway through or at least after Boston that given the heated meetings no taping should be allowed.
As for the puppet and similiar comments, she's an ambassador, I don't think she can independently implement foreign policy. She has to either toe the line or like Evans do the brave and just thing.
Another take on her visit is that the purpose of the visits was just a cover to guage the Armenain-American community post april24. The purpose of the visit, to foster programs within the US-diaspora to help Armenia sounded week.
Unfortunately at the same time Armenia does need help through programs and there needs to be reforms. March 1st was awefull and gives the US the opportunity to use against Armenia.
Speaking of dramatic dynamic change and chaos, I think one is coming up in Iran. The current regime's days are numbered especially given their disconnect with the people of Iran. the worst case scenario is that the Azeri regions of Iran break away in an Iraninan rebellion. More Azeris live in Iran than Azerbaijan republic. If that happens, given the huge influx of potential soldiers, nothing will stop the Azeris from war. That will be the end of Armenia, or at least the southern regions of Armenia. One way out would be that Russia annexes Armenia and becomes part of Russia. How's that for a worst case scenario?
I think we need to reunite the Artsakh to Armenia, back then after getting red of Azeri occupation , that was the demand of the people of Artsakh, the Armenian people asked for uniting the Artsakh to Armenia, they didn’t ask for independent or a separate country with a separate flag from Armenia, we need to solve this problem first, which comes ahead than anything else, also we need to remember that Armenia is a republic and not a kingdom, the government is elected by the people to serve the people, and not to do deals such as a road map, secretly or without details, even from the Armenian parliament, what kind of democracy is this, is this president still doing what was had been done at the communist times! When the people in Armenia will have their say, and what about the Armenians in diasporas, do they have a say also about all this deals or not, aren’t they are a part of the Armenian people also! To where are we going! where are our real leaders ! I think, Armenians need to come up, with better leadership than this one we have it now, with leadership, who cares for the people more than himself. Dashnagtsouyoun. The rests don't work.
What a load of "kinetic" crap!!!
I understand and fully agree with the ARF' s criticism of President Sargsian.
However, moving forward, I would like to know what the ARF's foreign policy is regarding Turkey, and how the ARF intends to implement this.
I would also like to know why, taking into account that the the ARF has been the premier, most well-known political party for the last 100 years, the ARF has not a lot done better electorally in Armenia. Does the party truly have the confidence of the people? Has it proven, in Armenia, that it has the people and programs to lead? What programs has the ARF implemented that would lead us to believe that the answer to that last question is "yes"? And, specifically, what would the ARF be doing differently than the two most recent presidents of Armenia have done?
What a great work! Chapeau to the lady.Same needs to be done to all schools.Conditions are worse than terrible.Visited one school in Yerevan and was shocked... no windows and what toilettes!!
I met Araz in 2006 at her premiere of "The Genocide in Me" in Yerevan and was floored by her film which exposed the similarity that we all have as children of this dedicated and dispossesed nation searching to understand why we are who we are.
Armenia lives though the Araz's of the the diaspora.
Persevere Araz.
I applaud Ara Sarafian for his courage and continual effort to herald the dignity of truth through his publications about the Armenian genocide. What a gift Sarafian has given the Armenian and Turkish communities in publishing the BLUE BOOK in Turkish. Now Turks can read in their own language the factual history about what transpired in 1915 and not the tempered history being rewritten in Turkey. I’ve read some of that Turkish history in a small museum in Igdir, Turkey, close to the Armenian border. The museum, part of a monument dedicated to the Turks killed by Armenians, contained several books written in English. As I read a statement in the first pamphlet I picked up, I was stunned at the depth of falsehood as the author stated, “Those Armenians who were deported were given homes comparable to the ones they left behind!” It is inevitable. Truth will prevail. Keep up the good work, Mr. Sarafian!
Mark Gergaos is a California criminal defense attorney who's client list is mostly celebrities. What he understands about representing clients before Election Commissions based out of Ohio I am not sure.
All Lawyers don't know all Law. Having a high profile lawyer from out of town swoop in to what I am sure is a very clubby world of Ohio politics is not going to be viewed very favorable.
Kirkorian is starting to loose his sense of perspective.
Hye, Re: Bedros' questions. Questions shall be asked/answered.
Howsomever, I feel compelled to point out that the ARF has been the leadership of the Armenian nation since it was in the throes of the Genocide. When the ARF stood forth in the current Armenian republic, Der Pedrosian's anti-ARF position caused the 'separation' of the ARF of the diaspora from the ARF of the new Armenian republic. The Armenian ARF has to prove it itself to the new nation.
The ARF, patriotic leadership, lead the nation for the two years (1918-1920) (It is worth mentioning in those two years a university was established!) In other words, the ARF has been 'In the Arena'..... Our patriots then and our patriots today in the ARF are, as Theodore Roosevelt spelled out so well in his writings, all were in the struggle: 'In The Arena'. When they succeeded, they were 'In the Arena'..... yet, when they failed, they were 'In the Arena'. But, they were there......Critics, were not 'In the Arena' . Critics can only make their 'after the fact' comments/critiques yet are unable to step up to the challenges/solutions and enter 'In the Arena'. The ARF recognizing their victories and recognizing their losses, but yet still knowing full well, the ARF was there ...- the ARF has been 'In the Arena' for the Armenia nation.
Who else?
Manooshag
In my lifetime, I marched with the ARF leading, in the April 24th observance in 1965 (the 50th year) through the streets of New York city proclaiming the Armenian Genocide. Some elements of the Armenian community would not even recognize the Armenian flag - and when Armenian nation broke free of the USSR, these entities had to borrow an Armenian flag from my church...... Thank you, ARF.... for being 'In the Arena'. M
Manooshag
The ARF has been part of a coalition that has governed Armenia for the past 10 years. What has it accomplished ? Enough with 100 year history. What are you doing now ?
Nowadays, being "in the arena" means laying down with dogs and catching their fleas. Let's everyone read Khrimian Hairig's Iron Ladle Speech and implement it.
Having come into contact with numerous editors at TIME and NEWSWEEK in professional capacities, I can vouch for the fact that both publications expect their writers to reflect U.S. foreign policy in their news pages. As a former editor at TIME magazine, Ignatius himself is a product of the U.S. government establishment. I attended his talk at St. James, and found his remarks to be in lockstep with U.S. foreign policy. His rehearsed lines, delivered casually as if to recount one of many tales lifted from his story bag, informed us that: China is a burgeoning democracy, mecca for capitalism and superpower whom Americans should befriend. Russia is to be reviled by Americans. Ignatius is not alone among opinion-makers in their belief in the goodness of Turkish-Armenian "reconciliation." Stringing together all of his remarks, I could only surmise that Ignatius' intent was to propagandize his audience. Likewise, readers would do well to study exactly what Adi's journalist brother David Ignatius has said and done regarding Armenian issues while employed at the Washington Post and elsewhere.
Araz jon!
You are amazing and I admire you for your accomplishments! More power to you!
You are A true patriot, A valuable artist and role model!
Sending you a LOUD hurahhh and a BIG hug!
Parik Nazarian
Los Angels
July 6, 2009
Oshagan did not discuss the "way foraward", he just tried to justify and make excuses for an embarrassing past. In one sentence only, it was mentioned plans for the future: a social agenda addressing women's rights, children's rights, poverty eradication, retirement security. When ARF was partnering with the Kocharian government enjoying double digit economic growth we saw policies empowering the rich and creating a huge gap and rift between the rich and the poor. We saw policies that strengthen the oligarchic, monopolistic economy that shattered local industry and productivity creating huge unemployment and forcing many to go to Russia for work. When ARF will stop talking in the past tense and will start to courageously address the problems of Armenia, then will it have a following in Armenia. As of now it has no following, no respect, no program for Armenia nor it has good analysts or cadres to make a difference in the homeland. ARF, your past was great and inspiring - can you revolutionize a people today to stand up for civil rights, against oligarchs, and corruption? It's a huge agenda, not to be done overnight, but at least you can start talking about it with courage and for once make demands on the government. Your reader rightfully asked: what is your record for the past 10 years?
According to what I've read in the papers, Geragos will teaming-up with a local attorney. So, that part is covered. What is not covered, is Jean Schmidt's inability to "think on her feet," while Geragos questions her. He did not get all those clients, cases and money by being slow-witted. Geragos might very well have Schmidt in tears and tendering her resignation by lunch.
Ranjbar,
It is rather lacking in astuteness to make the effort to dismiss something capriciously rather than to provide a coherent argument in response. One could ask what your suggestion is on the topic, but it seems you have already provided your acute analysis.
Davidian,
Nice try at a sincere analysis about the possiblity of Armenian Reparations/land. However, i'd have to agree more with the RootArmo here; irredentism gets us nowhere. Sure, static situations may turn dynamic, but im not sure it'll result in land--a border opening perhaps--but not necessarily land.
I liked this quote: "Any land awarded Armenia would also rightfully include its inhabitants. This indigenous population would be offered Armenian citizenship. For Armenians, the concept of multi-ethnic Armenian citizens must be reconciled with before any land reparations can go forward." Not only because a multi-ethnic society works to diffuse tensions, but because it is a process that can happen in turkey as well. So although land transfer may pose a number of issues, turkey and armenia embracing a multi-ethnic model (in practice as well as officially), may be the best hope for a lasting solution.
Although such a solution would need to eventually become political, it is often a country's political culture will be requred to push for the direction that this eventual solution must take. There are signs of turkish civil society starting to show goodwill in being more open about discussing the genocide. There is a shared culture between both sides that cant be ignored as well. If there is goodwill, perhaps a border opening is the start for reconciliation.
June:
Geragos has to team up with a local lawyer, he is not licenced to practice law in Ohio. Trying a criminal trial before a jury is very different then running a trial before a judge on legal issues which pretain to Ohio Election law. Geragos is going to put minimal effort into preparing for the case. There will be no crying witnesses.
Your watching too much teleivsion.
The half million Armenians living in LA evidently didn't get the memo that they were happier in Armenia then then US.
What a meaningless article...all because we came out ahead of a few countries we don't like, on an index that has no relevance to the quality of life of people living in those countries.
Manooshag's response is very typical of how people feel about the ARF. You look at the black and white photos of Fedayees with the ARF flag in full battle dress during the Genocide, you cannot help but feel proud that Armenians fought back in the darkest hour and the ARF led the way.
Until the Soviet Union crumbled and Armenia was thrust into independence the ARF got a free pass. It was not held accountable for governing because it couldn't govern. They became very comfortable in being an "opposition" group against the Turkish Government and the Soviet Union. Once Armenia became an independent nation things changed. Suddenly, marching around with a clenched fist yelling slogans didn't matter. People want to prosper, people want better living conditions, people wanted a better life. You cannot take a tri-color flag to the bank and cash it.
The Karabagh War gave them a little reprieve from having to govern. A war not started or won by the ARF but one in which some ( and I do emphasis SOME) ARF members participated. The war however tragic went to the heart of how the ARF precieves itself to be and how it wishes to potray its own image to the Diaspora. A party which will take action on the battlefield against the enemy. Saradarbad - to Shushi its all the same, its the ARF. Difficult question regarding healthcare, job creation, and education were readily ignored as long as Azeri T-74 Tanks were rolling in the countryside.
The truth is beyond taking a hardline positions against Turkey and Azerbaijian with topics it feels it very comfortable with it does not bring much else to the table. The ARF certainly can take the moral high ground for on whole host of historical issues. ( Flag, Marchs, Congressional petitions, First Republic). But that resonates much more with the diaspora then with the people who live in Armenia. As much ARF would like to to think otherwise, its essentially a diasporan organization.
Now that they have pulled out of the ruling coaltion, they can become a "professional" opposition force, playing lip service to wanting to be in charge but releaved of the burden to actually do anything. They can also be "morally" pure as their stance and position will have no influence on state of affairs. Since they do not have to meet/negoitate with anyone they can take as hard of stance as they want.
It kind of becomes a win win situation. ARF gets to take the moral high ground regarding Genocide recognition/reparations and Karabagh (issues that its supporters in the diaspora care most about) and its free to critique the exisiting Government on everything without having to enter "the arena".
But they were in the "arena" for 10 years and have nothing to show for it and that is past they would rather soon forget.
The United States and its political elite are afraid of Turkey!!! Every time during political campain they promise of recognizing Armenian Genocide then for some reason they are afraid to telling the truth it dosen't mater it is President Bush Clinton Or Obama, it shows that Turkey is more powerful than U.S. & our presidents are chicken!!!!!! but at the end truth will prevail and win, wait and see .Blessing be upon my beloved Armenia.
Taking photos with her??? Can our community be anymore pathetically disrespectful to our martyrs? Why do some members of our community act as if they are still enslaved to ottoman masters? When will they break these century old chains and realize that we have rights in this country backed by a constitution and protected by a judiciary that allow us to speak out and defend ourselves. What’s the worst that could have happened if 250 Armenian Americans lead by their shrewd community leaders refused to accommodate a double talking genocide denier and her tag along buffoons? Why was Yovanovitch and her thugs allowed to dictate rules on our turf and in our own home? What sort of message do you think a photo-op session sent the state dept? Then we sit bewildered each April pondering over why we were backstabbed. Rather than sending our Ambassador back to Washington feeling ashamed and embarrassed over her government’s ridiculously pathetic stance over the Armenian Genocide we made her feel like an important high ranking dignitary. It’s high time some community members broke their ottoman chains of appeasement and woke up to our dreaded reality.
Finally, Araz found her roots where she belongs; from a confused young talented person she grew up to become a mature person who realizes that in life we need to aspire for a noble ideal; what better ideal than to serve ones own nation that desperately needs help, a nation subjected to the worst abuses and neglect by the world at large.
Araz, with your new dedication you epitomize the best role model every Armenian should follow, you have become the source of inspiration to all of us, bravo !!! I am confident that many will join you or even help you financially, do not despair go for it.
I am sure your film making exceptional talent will grow even stronger and I hope you will continue the film productions and partially contribute with it to the cause of the Armenian nation.
After all, your parents' efforts in inculcating in you awareness of your Armenianness was not in vain; thus their indispensible work should be appreciated.
I would love to help, and have asked the facebook group 'for salvation of Cilicia' for a safe and secure way for people to donate money to save this ship and nobody has been helpful. I had hoped this article would provide a website where a secure donation could be made but the website listed at the end of the article goes to a relatively empty Russian-language site which seems to be a web-developer based in Tartarstan region of Russia, did anyone bother to check the link before posting it in the article??? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the ship or the story. Kind of sad. And I don't really feel comfortable calling a random phone number in Yerevan to send my money... sorry, wish I could help but nobody makes it possible, let alone easy to do so. Amot e, shat gheghetsik er mer Kilikia nav...
David: "There are signs of turkish civil society starting to show goodwill in being more open about discussing the genocide."
Yes, it used to be that ten years ago one could not even say "there was no Armenian genocide" because it made reference to Armenians and 1915. Now you can say it loudly.
If there is any land reparation (I find it to be nothing but a dream), I doubt the inhabitants that come with it will simply submit and become Armenian citizens. There will be Turks, Kurds and even Azeris. I'm sure there will be uprisings and one will need to be as brutal as the Turkish army was on the Kurds. I doubt Armenia has the means and the will to do this. And how about Armenians returning to their ancestral lands? Who in the diaspora would want to move there?
I would love to see us reuniting with our Hamshen brothers and sisters in Rize though.
It is sad to read about the faith of AYAS and her voyages and 62 port calls. I believe that Goverment of Armenia should take over salvage operation of the vessel and use it in international events and regattas , as a good representative of Armenia's seafaring heritage. Definitly in such events there would be businesses who would love the ocasion of sponsoring the journey for their advertisings.
Particularly Ministries of Transport or Tourism should inherit and sponsor and maintain the vessel .
To enslave AYAS in Sevan for the sake of handful of tourists is a bad idea and a mere short cut .
If Armenians are so happy, then why does everyone tell me that Armenia "is not a country?" Maybe the people at the New Economics Foundation on a visit here had one too many shots of mulberry vodka which influenced them to make this assessment. It doesn't correspond with reality. Even people who are doing well in the middle class are fed up.
Gegeckuhi? ashxataser u tagandavor ARAZ ARTUNYANIN im xorin harganq#
Es kcankanayi hayatar "MTORUM" handesum hratarakel hargarjan Arazi masin ogtvelov Dzer kygmic nerkgyacvats nkaric: Ete me hasner nra mi qani xosq3 menq met hachuyqov khratarakenq:
Haytneq nra elektronayin kam postayin hascen, vor menq imananq te mer vor gotser# hacheli klinen nra srti larerin:
Shnorhakalutyun Jabarvanin ARAZ ARTUNYANI patker# mez ugarkelu hamar:
Urax kyanq bolorid:
Armenian Americans will not empower themselves by joining the State Dept, as Balian claims. That is the road to co-optation, as headline news and history books have shown us.
Maybe the ARF should take a page from the book of the ruling AK party in Turkey. It is said (though who knows if it's true?) that the AKP came to power by first serving people through various charities and institutions, and then providing corruption-free governance at the local level. Whether that is true or not, it sounds like a good plan.
Aside from the ARS, how does the ARF serve the people in Armenia? If it does serve it, then tell us how. There is much opportunity, surely, for productive civil work in Armenia.
Regarding a political platform, what exactly are the planks in the ARF platform? I am not saying there aren't any. But those planks, if they exist, must come to life somehow. They must be fleshed out. They must be enacted as far as possible, somehow, even if the ARF is not in power. There need to be new initiatives.
The Happiness Index must have polled Serzh, Dodi Gago, Hranoush and Sirusho. Then the Armenia results would make some sense.
RootArmo, your points are well taken.
Re: your comment, "Since they do not have to meet/negoitate with anyone, they can take as hard of stance as they want.,"
I'd like to insert that Armenian organizations and entities CAN and SHOULD take a hard line EVEN and ESPECIALLY when they meet and negotiate! Take a good look at criminal Turkish and Israeli governments, insisting on having their way like spoiled brats, throwing tantrums and digging in their heels until they do.
The article below was published in the Armenian Weekly on June 24, 2006:
Dream to Achieve
Confessions of an Angry Armenian – Part 3
By George M. Aghjayan
I remember growing up in the 1970’s and early 1980’s, those of us who believed in a free and independent Armenia were scoffed at for that belief. The Soviet Union was a world power whose dominant strength would never falter. We had the political sophistication of peasants. Others were realists while we were sentimental idealists to be ridiculed. As we all know, Armenia has now become independent, while not united and its freedom questionable.
My objective in recalling that time in our history is not to belittle or rejoice, but instead to remind that to dream is to achieve, acceptance is failure.
Today, I find that we are in much the same situation in regards to reparations and restitution of land. I have responded to the main objections to reparations in part 2 of this series. Here I wish instead to focus on what exactly is meant by reparations and restitution. Primarily, I wish to suggest a possibility. Not that this is a proposal, but, instead, simply an effort to expose the misconception that those who adhere to the importance of restitution of land are peasant dreamers in the world of realpolitik.
Thus far, there has been a general hesitation to discuss reparations in terms other than all (most commonly stated as the results of the treaty of Sevres) or nothing (recognition only). By emphasizing the maximum position, it has made it easier for the “realists” to portray all talk of reparations as extremist and unworkable.
Even within the supposedly liberal circles of Turkish academics that acknowledge the Genocide, there is strong protest against any notion of reparations for all the same tired reasons. What is particularly maddening with this approach is that Armenians are expected once again to put aside their rights in order to benefit the Turkish people.
The strength of the Republic of Turkey is built on the blood of Armenians. The rights Armenians were striving for then, as well as the demand for justice today, are dismissed as unimportant or, worse, products of outdated concepts of nationalism.
The Armenian Genocide is being viewed by these people solely as a way of improving democracy within Turkey on the pretext that it would also quite naturally benefit Armenia. No such guarantees can be made. Thus, acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide to these people is less about the rights of Armenians than it is about achieving some gains for Turkey.
The phrase “adding insult to injury” is not nearly strong enough to describe this strategy for resolution.
While it is absurd to dismiss reparations altogether on the basis of one definition, there are also fundamental problems with the approach of demanding what is perceived as the perfect outcome. Justice for the Armenian Genocide cannot be viewed as a business transaction where you bargain from ends of the continuum to meet somewhere in between.
The Turkish government to end any possibility of an Armenian nation on our ancestral land initiated the genocide of the Armenian people. Any discussion of reparations and restitution should begin here, with the understanding that perfect justice is unattainable given the magnitude of the crime. My thought is to view the restitution of land in the context of what would be necessary to support the sustainability of Armenia – to guarantee the failure of the Armenian Genocide.
From this perspective, I believe a port on the Black Sea is imperative.
When one talks of the transfer of land, a number of points are made in the effort to portray restitution as unattainable, even undesirable. One such objection is that few, if any, Armenians would repatriate to restored lands and Turkey is a country of 70 million while there are only 7 million Armenians worldwide.
Interestingly, here the “realists” are ignoring the demographic facts. The current total population for all of the Turkish provinces from Armenia to the Black Sea is only about 800 thousand. The area comprises the provinces of Artvin, Ardahan, Kars and Igdir. Thus, an Armenia which includes these provinces with their current population would still be over 75% Armenian. This does not even consider Hamshen Armenians and others who have hidden their Armenian identity while living on the land today.
Historically and culturally, these provinces would return the Armenian capitols of Kars and Ani. In addition, Mount Ararat would once again be part of Armenia. Economically, Armenia would no longer be land-locked. Strategically, the Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline would pass through Armenia. In addition, one could then also speak of monetary reparations in the context of economical development for the region.
One concern I continue to have over the welfare of Armenia is the pan-Turanian drive eastward. Strategically, it may make sense to cede Azerbaijan the southern most region of Armenian bordering Iran so that Armenia no longer blocks Turkey’s access to the east. The resulting marginalization of Georgia would also be to Armenia’s long-term advantage. This may also make the resolution more palatable to Turkey, while also resolving the status of Artsakh.
Ultimately, these are simply ideas to begin a discussion that is long overdue – reasonable, practical goals to strive for as we dream to achieve.
To David:
You appear to have concluded that genocide reparations in the form of land reparation is basically a dead end. Have you made such demands and failed?
There is no reason why efforts towards making the current 30K sq km of Armenia a better place and demands for genocide reparation be assumed mutually exclusive.
For the record: the land in question is not 80K sq mi as RootArmo suggests. Either my article wasn't read or it was incorrectly assumed the map supplied on www.regionalkinetics.com and www.armenianweekly.com/ the was the Sevres/Wilsonian Grant. It was not. This border delineation contains between 1 and 2M inhabitants. RootArmo’s 80K sq km contains somewhere under 10M people.
This could be the beginning for a modern pilgrimage. Keep up the good work!
Sireli Bedo,
Talaat-in yev miousneroun badjveloun hamar, artiok bedk e kordzadzenk assasination-i pokharen, nemesis execution vorbeszi kaghakagan pnouyt sdana.
Hotvtatze hedajrjragan er. Zaven-e yen Kohar-e ge tchanan nayev tseghasbanoutian hartsov zpaghil.
Parevnerov
Kasbar
I am 100% behind Hayer and Hayastan, however this poll is BS.
The majority of the country is in poverty, with lil opportunity, and people trying to leave whenever they can.
Did they go to the out skirt villages to poll people, or only the well to do in Yerevan?
Let me see if I understand this.
Some of you think that Armenians can never regain land?
I suppose that Karabagh and, just outside of it, the huge swathes of formerly "Azeri" territory now occupied by Armenian troops are mirages?
What's that I hear you saying? The situation in Azerbaijan is different? Well, every situation is different. Regaining land is possible if you don't take a *defeatist* attitude.
Asking "but will you go live there?" stifles the valid demand for Armenian land reparations. Diasporan repatriation to Armenia (see: http://hetq.am/en/society/armen-ayvazyan/) as well as renewed volunteerism in the Arstakh defense corps are already underway. Others will bypass these and return to their ancestral lands, no matter how treacherous the conditions. Yet others may decide to reallocate their lands in other ways. What happens to Western Armenia is for the Armenians who belong to that land to decide.
Random ArmenIAN:
I want to echo what George Aghjyan wrote...don't confuse an illusion of Turkish "goodwill" with actual intent.
It may not be helpful to base unanalyzed conclusions on zero-sum scenarios: there must be one winner and one loser, for every gain there is a loss. It is also not useful to assume that land reparations will fall from the sky on the heads of all concerned without warning.
Regarding the claimed consequences of offering Armenian citizenship to the inhabitants of the lands between Armenia and the wider Black Sea coast -- nobody will force anybody to accept Armenian citizenship. If somebody does not want to be a citizen of Armenia, they can continue to be citizens of Turkey, be compensated by the Turkish state and live someplace else in Turkey. There is no reason to conclude there will be mass riots, uprisings or violent repression.
The Turkish government loves hearing the classic "defeatist attitude" of some Armenians regarding our legitimate irredentist demands on occupied lands. It's a marvelous wedge issue Turkey continues to leverage in its attempt to divide Armenians. It ensures Turkey that some community members are still shackled to what a post above describes as the "static slave mentality" of some Armenians who remain pathetically enslaved to a defeatist ottoman mindset. Doonus I couldn't agree with you more.
Doonus:
Armenians didn't "regain" land in Karabagh. They were living in and on Karabagh when the war started. They were fighting for their actual homes. What they did was drive the Azeris out...by force. A military solution to a historic injustice.
Who can argue the sentiment "we will never give up" but while you spend an entire liftime being angry at the Turks over lands you rightfully claim the Armenian Nation is mired in poverty and neglect.
Davidian:
You can lose a lot by asking/demanding land back. You can hang your hat on taking the morally pure route..but that is about the only victory your going cliam. Going into it you know its low percentage shot...and your going to ruin all possible hope of economic growth for the sake of what? A moral victory...
You have thought it all out as to what the population on reclaimed Armenian land will or will not do. Could you possibly engage in more meaningless exercise. While you spent all this time write your article there are orphans in Armenia waiting for someone to adopt them, there is a village which does not have a working toilet, there is son or daughter who is planning on leaving the country for good because there is no economic hope.
The article below, "The Armenian Land Question: Misunderstood Terrain," concerns the Armenian territorial issue.
It was written by me in the summer of 2004. It was originally published in several Armenian media, including the Armenian Mirror Spectator, Armenian Reporter International, Armenian Weekly, and others Hopefully, it can contribute to the discussion of the worthwhile articles above.
*****
The Armenian Land Question: Misunderstood Terrain
By David Boyajian
Geography, someone once said, is destiny. If so, the present geography of Armenia poses major challenges for its future.
Small and landlocked, Armenia is outflanked by Turkey to the west and Azerbaijan to the east. To the north, unreliable Georgia controls Armenia’s routes to the Black Sea and Russia. To the south, thankfully, lies friendly Iran. Unfortunately, the Iranian provinces just to Armenia’s south contain millions of Azeris who might someday blockade Armenia by forming an autonomous pan-Turkic corridor from Turkey to Azerbaijan.
To endure and prosper, Armenia must somehow break out of its geographical straightjacket by reclaiming the lands of historical Western Armenia, which, as we know, lie mostly within what is now called eastern Turkey.
That territory was the primary site of the 1915-1923 Genocide, and much of it was to be incorporated into the Armenian Republic in 1920 by the Treaty of Sevres, which Turkey signed but later renounced. Perhaps four times the size of the current Republic of Armenia, the treaty territory constitutes about 15 percent of present-day Turkey. Significantly, it included a coastline on the Black Sea.
WHY LAND?
Today that coastline would provide Armenia with a direct sea route to Europe and Russia. Georgia would lose the potential to deny Armenia access to much of the outside world, and Armenia would be less vulnerable to a Turkish land blockade. Armenia’s economy and national security would be strengthened.
Eventually Armenia might develop an ocean-going navy, including submarines that could endow the country with a stealthy, survivable defense capability.
Present-day Armenia with its limited, rocky soil has trouble feeding itself. Regaining its well-irrigated, traditional breadbasket in Western Armenia would clearly be beneficial.
Recouping territory is also simple justice, restoring what Turks took from Armenians in the carnage of 1915 and by centuries of massacre, deportation, confiscation, onerous taxation, abduction, rape, and forced Islamization.
Says political scientist Khatchik Der Ghougassian, Turkey in 1915 “intended to redefine the geopolitical situation by eliminating Armenians from Asia Minor. Thus, a response to the Genocide must deprive Turkey of the geopolitical map it made possible by committing genocide.”
Additionally, Turkey has come to believe that it can get away with killing huge numbers of Armenians and seizing their land. It bodes ill for Armenia’s future if Turkey is not made to unlearn that lesson.
But there are misconceptions about how and when Armenia can regain territory.
REGAINING TERRITORY
Contrary to what some may think, no serious Armenian analyst has ever suggested that Armenia can march over the Turkish border next week and retake what rightfully belongs to it. Armenian land can be resettled only in the long term, perhaps decades from now.
The most plausible scenario is war, unfortunately, though not necessarily between Armenia and Turkey.
Instability breeds war, and there are few regions more unstable than eastern Turkey where, for instance, on and off warfare between Kurds and the central government has taken place for centuries. Though the most recent war ended in 1999, some Kurdish groups (Pkk/Hadek/Kongra-Gel) just announced a resumption of that conflict.
Future military cooperation between Armenians and Kurds, perhaps with Russian assistance, and a subsequent division of the spoils—even if less than Armenians would like—is a possibility.
Also possible is a conflict between Turkey and Russia, who have fought at least eight wars in the last three centuries. Some of the battlegrounds were in eastern Turkey. During World War I, for instance, the Russian Army advanced deep into the Western Armenian heartland. Only the Russian Revolution brought about a withdrawal. A similar scenario, with Armenia itself possibly retaking some territory, cannot be ruled out.
Neither should one underestimate the ability of Armenians themselves to retake land. Against all odds, Armenians not only won the battle for Karabagh in 1993, but also captured a buffer zone of about 2,000 square miles within what is now Azerbaijan, where comparatively few Armenians lived at the time.
Currently, the West and Turkey’s only route into Azerbaijan and the Caspian region that avoids their Russian and Iranian adversaries is through unstable Georgia. Were Georgia to become further destabilized, Armenia would, in theory, possess considerable leverage as the only remaining route. Might some land concessions then be offered Armenia in return for its cooperation?
RESETTLEMENT ISSUE
Another misconception is that Armenians could never repopulate Western Armenia since surviving among its several million Turks and Kurds would be unrealistic. Again, no serious analyst has ever suggested, nor would Armenians consider, repopulating territory while it remained under Turkish control. Armenia or a friendly power would need to administer the territory for it to be safe for resettlement.
What about the Turks, Kurds, and others, many of part Armenian descent, who now occupy homes, property, farms, and towns in eastern Turkey that 90 years ago were Armenian? Admittedly, the question has no simple answer.
There are, however, many precedents for large-scale population movements. For example:
Azerbaijan’s attack on Karabagh more than a decade ago led hundreds of thousands of Azeris in Armenia and Armenians in Azerbaijan to flee in opposite directions. This was a tragedy, yet a peace accord may someday allow many of these people to return to their homes or be compensated.
After their war ended in 1922, Greece and Turkey “exchanged” 1.5 million people—most Greeks in Turkey were sent to Greece, while lesser numbers of Turks in Greece returned to Turkey.
Kurds are currently repopulating districts in northern Iraq from which the former regime had removed them, though not always in ways that are fair to the present Arab residents.
The Council of Europe is demanding that as many as 100,000 Meshket Turks, whom Stalin deported from Georgia to Central Asia, be settled near Armenians in Georgia’s Javakhk region. Turks deserve to be resettled, but not Armenians?
No one underestimates the difficulties. Even in 1920, the Sevres Treaty in hand, the destitute survivors of the Genocide and the impoverished Armenian Republic would have encountered difficulty in returning to and administering their land. Indeed, Turkey confiscated Armenian property and nearly eradicated Armenians in 1915 precisely to make it hard for the survivors and other Armenians to ever return.
To totally dismiss the goal of Armenian resettlement is, therefore, to reward Turkey for having created the problem in the first place. Ultimately, the criminal, not the victim, bears responsibility for setting things right.
Armenians do not, of course, wish hardship on others. Still, Armenia deserves a measure of justice and security. If Turkey wants to talk about that, Armenians have always been willing to sit down at the table.
THE FUTURE
Admittedly, just holding onto Armenia and Karabagh now is difficult, especially in view of the menacing Turkish-Georgian-Azeri axis backed by the US. Frankly, it is even conceivable that Turkey, in its ongoing drive into the Caucasus and Central Asia, will someday overrun a piece of Armenia before the latter gets even one inch of its territory back.
Armenia’s present state of affairs does not, however, preclude us from considering how best to address the land issue in the future.
Some Armenians have, unfortunately, convinced themselves that even mentioning the land issue is too provocative. As if the Genocide and subsequent land theft were not themselves the ultimate provocations.
Remember, too, that Turkey—a relative newcomer to the region, incidentally, and nowhere near as old as the Armenian nation—is itself beset by political and economic problems and nearly surrounded by less than friendly nations including Greece, Cyprus, Iran, Russia, and others.
Just as few foresaw the independence of Armenia and the disintegration of the Soviet Union, no one can predict whether or how the land issue will be resolved.
Ottoman Turkey has, however, been shrinking steadily for hundreds of years. Moreover, as it occupies Armenian territory and rules over Kurds, Turkey can still be regarded as an empire. Be they Roman, Byzantine, British, or Soviet, empires inevitably contract and fall.
Haikush;
Please check out the Society for Orphaned Armenian Relief (SOAR)
www.soar-us.org
I have given PLENTY of time and money for the future of Armenia...it's children!
Lastly, check out the US State Deparment's Requirements on Adoption from Armenia, it clearly states that Armenian Heritage is STRONGLY preferred.
It is an unwritten law with the Armenian Adoption Committee but healthy babies will never go to non-Armenians unless they are willing to pay $50,000+ last year only 29 Armenian children/babies were granted orphan Visas to the USA. There are MUCH more that are adopted by the preferred French Armenians.
Dear Kasbar,
What a pleasant surprise to read someone writing about my historical roots. I too was born in Belgrade, Yugoslavia and my father Hovsep Davitjan and his family were good friends of the Tehlirian Family. Two years ago when our parish priest Hyr. Meghrig Parikian created and directed a charity Musical in Commemoration of our May 28th Independance Day we invited as our honored guests Zaven and his lovely wife Suzanne Melikian to attend and reunite Zaven with his child hood friend my father Hovsep Davitjan, it was truly a memorable weekend. They both had tears in their eyes when they hugged. The brilliant musical play depicts the assasination of Talat Pasha by our Soghomon. At the end of the DVD which you can purchase from our St. Mary's Armenian Apostolic Church Toronto web site there is an interview with Mr. Zaven Melikian which I'm sure those interested would like to see. Thank you again for the memories, as I remember my father mention many times the Kalemegdan Park , Zemoon, Sava, Markovich, coffee business............
I run an Adoption Agency in the USA with another odar by the name of Robin Sizemore. We have sold/ er adopted many babies out of Armenia. But we mostly adopt out sickly children from Armenia for a mere $26,000.
Our families were told by "God" to adopt.
They love adopting Armenian kids so they can change their Armenian names to Camyrn or some other Odar name.
Sorry about the earlier posting, I am not sure who this person was and didn't mean to be rude.
I know that many Armenian Americans have helped in Armenia.
And yes, it is preferred that you have Armenian Heritage. I was wrong. Here is a link about fraud in Armenian Adoption from Brandeis University.
http://www.brandeis.edu/investigate/gender/adoption/armenia.html
David Davidian,
I'm not sure if what I wrote came across clearly. Is should have written "Today in Turkey you can hear
'there was no genocide' loudly, when 10 years ago one would not even say that because it would mean bringing up the subject." I have no illusions about the "goodwill". Even Akcam is against land reparations.
As for citizenship to non-Armenians post-reparation, people living there are as attached to the land as we are. And I doubt they see themselves living on Armenian land. I doubt even the Kurds, who have the most to sympathize with us, despite the checked Armenian-Kursdish past, see the lands they live on as belonging to Armenians. I'm just not expecting things to go over smoothly post-reparation.
They say Frank Sinatra was a big tipper. This is probably an urban legend, but it's cute: He's leaving a restaurant and asks the valet the amount of the biggest tip he's ever received. The valet says, $100. So Sinatra hands him $150 and asks, "So who was it who left you the $100 tip, son?" Answer: "Oh, it was you, sir."
Sometimes I am embarassed to be an Armenian. How can any of you think it is acceptable for a woman who has been married twice, now living with her lover (Pitt) who she stole from his wife, the father of her last 3 bio kids.
We all have things in our past we are not proud of, seriously Jolie has admitted to having drug issues, serious mental problems where she was actually in lock down and has severed her ties with her bio father Jon Voight.
Voight has publically stated he fears for those kids because my daughter has emotional issues unfit for raising children.
In the early 1990s, Jolie admitted to being a bisexual and lived with another actress for quite some time)
She gets approval or clearance for adoptions because she has $$$ money and influence. I didn't think Armenian kids could be bought, after years of hearing these rumors I now believe it is all true.
How do you think Madonna paid her way to her two adoptions in poor Malawi? The little girl that she paid millions to the village for was actually hand delivered to Madonna on a private jet in England.
Madonna and other rich / famous people don't have to go through the same scrunity that average people have to go through.
I think the post above is accurate Jolie, has some kind of undiagnosed illness that compells her to adopt so many kids. She is like the Octomom
Rootarmo:
I guarantee if you make no reasonable claim today, when geopolitical change occurs, not only will you get nothing, but it will be more difficult the next iteration. This is because those who participated in the change have already taken advantage if your miscalculation. I find an dismissive Armenian position painfully close to serving the interests of our enemies.
The argument that fixing conditions in Armenia takes unconditional priority over the pursuit of justice also happens to resonate well with the interests of our enemies. There is no way of you knowing that those who are participating in this discussion have contributed, including their lives, to the betterment of the conditions in Armenia and at what level of success or failure. Yes, it hurts to see poverty in Armenia, yes it hurts to see rusting skeletons of useless factories all over, it hurts to see a country that runs by mafias, but you have not provided an argument that if all efforts were aimed at fixing conditions in Armenia they would result in sustained self-development in Armenia.
There is plenty of work to engage in acrosss the board, and to claim that pursuing the just cause of the Armenia should be abandoned for parochial reasons is self-defeating.
Glad to learn Tom is a decent tipper. I can't stand lousy tippers.
Hye Tad is essentially a 4-pronged national agenda:
1. caring for, developing, democratizing today's Armenia
2. helping NKR gain independence/merging with Armenia
3. securing autonomy and improving minority rights for Armenians in Georgia (Javakhk)
4. ending the Armenian Genocide and pursuing moral, financial, security and territorial reparations from Turkey.
All members of the Armenian Nation should be working on and helping promote these four main goals simultaneously.
Picking and choosing "my Armenia" over what "your Armenia" is gets us today's divisions, discrimination, authoritarianism, corruption, opaqueness, regression and destruction!
The Armenian diaspora will not survive indefinitely.
I agree with those who call for both territory and reparations.
Like a number of Armenians, I have long questioned the notion that "genocide acknowledgment" alone is sufficient. I also agree with Davidian and others above that land/reparations and helping the Republic of Armenia are not mutually exclusive. Obviously, however, Armenia and Artsakh must hang on to what they have now, and prosper, in order to take advantage of developments down the road to achieve future goals. I wrote the article below in 2005.
Hetq Online
Yerevan, Armenia
April 2005
GENOCIDE ACKNOWLEDGMENT: A DEAD END?
By David B. Boyajian
Worldwide Armenian political demands on Turkey have always included land, restitution, and Genocide acknowledgment. Over time, however, the demand for acknowledgment has eclipsed the other demands. In view of the obvious obstacles the land and restitution issues have faced, that's understandable.
Genocide acknowledgment is different. Armenians, and many non-Armenians, have readily rallied around such a straightforward and relatively non-aggressive demand. Moreover, a Turkish confession - apparently a mere sentence or two - has seemed achievable.
Suppose, therefore, that Turkey’s Prime Minister announced today that "Turkey acknowledges that 90 years ago, during a time in which both Turks and Armenians were murdered, some individuals in the Ottoman regime committed genocide against Armenians. Let us and Armenia now begin a new era."
Dead End
Would that really heal our collective psyche? Would it be sincere and signify a genuine shift in Turkish attitudes? Would Turkish organizations and individuals cease their Genocide denial? Would the remaining survivors and their descendants receive restitution/reparations?
Would Armenia's security be measurably enhanced? Would Turkey open its border with Armenia? Would it end its pan-Turkic thrust - similar to the one that spawned the Genocide - into the Caucasus and Central Asia? Could Armenians resettle in Anatolia/Western Armenia? Would Armenia recover even small amounts of that territory?
That the likely answer to each question is "No" should cause us to rethink our emphasis on acknowledgment. Among the political scientists doing that are Dr. Simon Payaslian, Nicolas Tavitian MS, and Dr. Khatchik Der Ghougassian (Armenian Forum, Vol. 2, No. 3, Gomidas.org).
Rethinking Acknowledgment
The "essential component" of "historic Armenian lands," says Payaslian, has been "redefined as, or totally replaced by, recognition." Western countries' "commemorative statements that ignore the territorial issue should be rejected." He lists four goals of acknowledgment: territory, emotional healing, restitution, and enhanced international standing for Armenia. Only the last, Payaslian concludes, is realistically achievable through acknowledgment. He is troubled by "the lack of public debate" on the "purposes and problems" of "Genocide recognition."
So is Tavitian: "Striving for genocide recognition has long been a reflex rather than an action toward a goal ... Armenians should rethink their approach."
However, acknowledgment could be a "security guarantee" for Armenia if it can "transform Turkey [and] the West's understanding of Armenia’s security." The quest for acknowledgment, Der Ghougassian believes, maintains "vigilance against the Turkish threat." Acknowledgment might be a "first step" towards "normalization of relations." Nevertheless, "A response to the Genocide must deprive Turkey" of the land it took in the genocide. Clearly, then, we need to rethink the pursuit of acknowledgment. If not, we may regret it.
Land and Restitution
The European Union (EU), which Turkey aspires to join, is asking Turkey to recognize the Genocide. Suppose Turkey complies. The EU and the US would likely conclude, since the land and restitution issues are not now prominently on the table, that Armenians had received everything they had asked for. For Armenians to subsequently try to drag those two issues into the spotlight would be difficult. And, as argued above, acknowledgment alone is unlikely to benefit Armenia much anyway. Worse, an educated guess is that the West would accept a sham acknowledgment, such as "Turkey regrets the wrongful murder of Armenians in 1915 by the old Ottoman regime."
Frankly, acknowledgment, in the absence of the restoration of Armenian rights, may be undesirable. The pursuit of acknowledgment, rather than acknowledgment itself, helps to maintain a strong defensive posture against Turkey and is a valuable tool to keep Armenia’s foe off balance.
Placing restitution and territory near the front of our agenda, therefore, serves two purposes. First, Turkey is unlikely to issue an acknowledgment at all, for fear of the consequences. Second, if an acknowledgment does come, Turkey and the West would less able to close the book on the Armenian case. In the meantime, efforts are underway to undermine the restitution and land issues.
State Department Trap
John Evans, the US Ambassador to Armenia, and David L. Phillips, a State Department consultant and moderator of the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC), recently toured the US gleefully claiming that Armenians cannot ask for restitution or land from Turkey.
They cite a 2003 "report" sponsored by TARC. The report affirmed the factuality of the genocide, but deviously asserted that the UN's1948 Genocide Treaty cannot be applied retroactively to 1915 and that "legal, financial, or territorial" claims are invalid.
Indeed, Phillips hints that four years ago it was he who arranged for President Robert Kocharian to tell Turkish TV that Armenia will not press for restitution or territory.
This, then, is the trap being laid for us: the US, and possibly Turkey, may someday issue a Genocide "acknowledgment", but Armenians must abandon all claims, particularly territorial ones, against Turkey.
Why is America worried about Turkish territory? Because the State Department, not to mention
Europe and Israel, regards eastern Turkey as a vital path to the Caspian Sea region's oil and gas. By disposing of Genocide acknowledgment and trashing Armenian land claims, the State Department hopes to both protect eastern Turkey and more easily penetrate the Caucasus.
The Future
Genocide acknowledgment is a vital, and perhaps permanent, weapon in Armenia and the Diaspora's arsenals. It must not be dealt away cheaply. Armenia and the traditional Diasporan political parties should immediately place land and restitution alongside, or close to, the acknowledgment demand.
Realistically, of course, Armenia cannot recover territory anytime soon. Still, that territory is vital for long-term security. For example, Armenia requires a secure path to the Black Sea and, therefore, to Europe and Russia. Needless to say, to attain that goal, Armenia must become much stronger.
(See "The Armenian Land Question: Misunderstood Terrain," Armenian Mirror Spectator, Boston, July 31, 2004.)
Recovering territory and obtaining material restitution someday will heal our wounds more than all the Turkish acknowledgments in the world. Notice, for example, that as Armenians now control Karabagh and the surrounding territory, the repression and massacres that Azerbaijan inflicted on Armenians in the last 100 years take a back seat.
Winning, therefore, is the best revenge, though we will always honor those who perished and suffered in the Genocide.
Lastly, we need to better educate ourselves about land and restitution. Genocide related
commemorations, lectures, and conferences should emphasize the ongoing geopolitical consequences of 1915: loss of historic lands and individual and historical property, and an adversary that remains committed to a dangerous, pan-Turkic philosophy. Younger generations, particularly - by nature action-oriented - crave such meaty political issues.
And if Turkey never acknowledges the Genocide? Security, and the restoration of rights and the Armenian homeland are more important.
I would like to clarify that "land reparations" is a misnomer. Armenians may indeed rightfully seek compensation for human and material loss in the form of reparations for the genocide. However, when it comes to stolen and confiscated Western Armenian lands, homes, properties, cultural monuments and the like, we are talking about "land return" from Turkey.
The Azeri and Turkish press allege that Artsakh Armenians have been persuaded to "return" Azeri lands, such as Kelbajar, that were conquered during the Artsakh War. By contrast, does anyone recall Turkey or Azerbaijan EVER "returning" lands to the Armenians? Let us not act in haste.
The article is heartbreaking but doesn't tell us what we can do to help improve the lives of so many.
Some people tend to think Armenian's legitimate reparations case for the period of the genocide is sufficient. However, when seeking lasting regional peace and genuine reconciliation it is critical to emphasize that the Armenian Genocide is a crime composed of two distinct stages: 1) the phase of the genocidal crime itself (the actual killing) and 2) the denial and distortion phase. Many will agree that this denial timeline continues to inflict a significant toll on Armenia and the Armenian Diaspora to this very day. Surely, this second phase of state sanctioned denial for almost a century must also be properly acknowledged and accounted for when pursuing a comprehensive compensation strategy.
Harry,
No misnomer, nor should we engage in semantics. If one were to take, for example, the swath of land as seen on www.regionalkinetics.com, some of that land never belonged to Armenians, much of it did. However, providing Armenian sovereignty over that entire area will restore the ability of Armenians to survive even if blockaded on all sides. Restoring Armenia's ability to survive is what must be restored and that is through land reparation. Regarding "stolen and confiscated Western Armenian lands, homes, properties, cultural monuments and the like" they may be demands that are made along with monetary indemnity.
Nobody is acting in haste.
Kecce Hayerd, vor patmutyun# chmarit ver eq hanum: petq e mtnel ashxarhi banuk sayteri mej u grel (hachax) pastaci patmutyun# i lur ashxarhin:
Kecce Wuiclin Armenian:
Heartbreaking that we are one of the most successful group in diaspora countries and the ancient homeland of our ancestors is a land without opportunity or a decent standard of living. Reporting bad news and not having even one suggestion on how Armenians worldwide can help is frustrating.
Asking for honest reporting, what is the socio-economic climate in Armenia today? I, and many other Armenians would like to know. Why do you not write a series on Conditions in Armenia: Politically, Economically, "the Powerful individuals and groups in Armenia"...etc the guts of the country today is needed because all efforts come from understanding first!
The film Return to Armenia (French, 2006) did not paint a pretty picture at all. Control and traffiking of medical supplies for profit, gangster groups controlling many economic markets, squalor and poverty, AND the ever suffering Armenian taxi driver. This is a poor image of Armenia and the young will continue to leave for France, Canada, Sweden, ANYWHERE but thre to have an opportunity to make a life and earn a living.
If its political, millions of armenians worldwide can bring pressure to bear from our contacts and international influence and power to reach top statesman. BUT, without knowledge, what can we do or ask anyone else to do?
May I dare suggest that YOU may have a responsibility to report the truth in-depth so that Armenians and their friends worldwide can act on it. Thank you.
With Best Regards,
Daniel Maroutian-Remy
Citizen of France and USA
and proud Armenian ancestry
I forgot ONE veyy important point that would show what Armenian action can do.
I am speaking of the millions of dollars and the thousands who have demonstrated for recognition of the Genocide. It is history, it is true, my ancestors lost most of our family in Kharput in 1915, it was hell! BUT, why can we not put the same energy in helping Armenia and Armenians who live there TODAY!! The past is gone for almost a century now. Armenians are living in the worst opression on mankind-POVERTY. Monetary contributions are helpful but like the proverb are a Fish today instead of a Fishing Pole for the future. Armenians have intelligence and love for Armenia. LET US CONCENTRATE
AND UNITE TO FIX ARMENIA TODAY in Armenia itself and let the history books speak for themselves. Our PRIORITY is LIVING ARMENIANS AND THEIR CHILDREN today. I hope that my comment is viewed as the appeal to reason and not a minimization of the Genocide that I also grew up with. But, we must concentrate and unite fort Armenia and influencing constructive change now.
Thank You
Move to Armenia, start a business there, and put people to work. It's that simple. I don't know why diasporan Armenians understand this simple, effective solution to "improve the lives of so many."
Hi Bedo,
Very interesting article. Keep up the good work. See you soon.
ari
the 60% unemployment figure is not correct, that number is in the teens. The 60% figure was during the 90s, especially the mid 90s.
I sympathize with Paron Bakhchinyan, and agree that young Armenians are not being taught properly when it comes to morals. This is the case in the Diaspora as well, where too many youngsters would rather fit in with the host country than be proud and stay true to their Armenian roots.
The State Department is a joke and full hypocrites. If a country has oil, human rights do not seem to matter as much to the US. Armenia is better off dealing with Russia, China and India.
Couldn't agree with you more Carl
I think this is an amazing work of art that when publishing such an article it is also important to reference where the book can be purchased somewhere in the context.
I have been too genteel in my input. My questions are simply: Is Armenia today suffering from the Political and Social dysfunctions controlling and choking the Armenian economy with graft? Are the foreign aid monetary contributions going mostly to military regional defense? Are the individual monetary charitable contributions by Armenians worldwide being managed honestly and by competent administrators to truly improve the population? Are the medical supplies going directly to the hospitals, or are there middlemen taking their cut?
Many countries in South America and the Middle East have this two tier economy and society. The 2% extremely wealthy and powerful; and, the 98 % who are extremely poor. Is Armenia a young America; or, is it an old middle eastern sultan-peasant society model? Is there a compulsory two year service for the young to do social and medical work and learn about poverty and injustices in their society? (as a note, the USA could use a national Peace Corps to make the young people realize that life is not just hip-hop and pop!).
I am a VietNam veteran and a former international executive. I am much too old to start a business in Armenia. BUT, I am a man of influence and accomplishment and wise about the world. I simply ask, what is the overall reality of Armenian politics and economics today? More importantly, I am asking who controls the POWER in Armenia today? We let the financial sector have most of the monetary power in the USA and look at the catastrophic results? And lastly, I ask: How much influence does the Russian mob and local gangsters have in Armenia and if so, does Armenia have a serious police effort to control this social desease?
I am a REALIST. If Armenia has these parasitic problems, then LOCAL police enforcement programs must start to clean these up. Mexico cannot clean up their narcotics mess because of the drug cartels having better weapons than the police and they have local control of the people through fear and feed. A little food in one hand and a big fist in the other hand.
Armenians must ask the HARD questions! Write letters to Armenian officials that politics and foreign policy is not their main job. Armenia must focus on the Armenian people. Only an egalitarian and democatic society can provide the opportunities to create and maintain a middle class.
On local industries? Look at Ireland! Armenia is an excellent wine growing region and the wine consumption worldwide has grown tremendously. Instead of the continuous battle with the neighboors, negotiate trade routes to the sea and promote Armenian wines. If it is good (and France will gladly contribute the vines), then it will sell. Computer software is an a huge intangible goods worldwide market requiring little capital and great return on investment. Tourism is good, but it is mostly Armenians doing their trip to Mecca only to return home to their families where they belong. Others come, sympathize, love the people and also have to go home to their families. Few Armenians can simply move there. And if one can, my last IMPORTANT question: Is the road clear to start a business there;OR, is it a cluttered road of bureaucracy and grafty hands?
These are the questions that will provide the answers on what needs to be done. Give us the honest journalistic answers and we will respond and do the best we can given the real and actual situation in Armenia. God bless all.
Davidian, was not Trebizond assigned to Armenia in the Treaty of Sevres?
What is the ARF’s position today on territorial return of W. Armenia?
Is it in the ARF's domain to pursue the return of confiscated homes in W. Armenia, or is that a job for the Armenian Bar Association?
Congratulations, David Davidian, for researching and presenting this thought-provoking article. Who else is involved in Regional Kinetics besides yourself?
Ashame on selfish people who doesn't want to recognise our genoside.
They have no riligion an no God.
____________________________________________
Armenian Sun on the Rise
by the Help of Bastillians*
Our sun is on the rise,
From the grave arisen
To give us our rights
In narrating our cause.
At last, the mighty heard
Our suppressed musical voice,
Massacred kids in paradise
Greeting joyful songs.
Armenian sun will never fade;
Genocide will be recognized in the end
By our human rights friends
Who believed in our tortured faith.
“Blood cannot turn to liquid,”—as been said.
The killers will live in shameful hate,
Souls will rest in eternal bate,
Lands will return in a miraculous date.
Our springs will provide waters to Arab lands
Who saved us from killers and nationalized us;
We are grateful to all nations caring for us
Survived and still breathing the natural human rights.
France’s commitment** was extremely brave;
Bastillians do not glitter for metals in a safe.
Liberty is in their genetics, thus abide.
Their pride always existed in “liberation rights.”
We Armenians are ready to replace their loss;
We will work hard with all our souls
Till the end of our last sighed noise
As honest, sincere, dedicated hosts.
________________________________________________________________________
* Bastille: French fortress (1370-1383) that later became a prison.
Stormed on July 14, 1789, during the French Revolution.
** October 12, 2006: Bill on Armenian Genocide was passed.
Ambassador John Evans*
America is a symbol of freedom,
Country signs human rights,
Country is open to every race,
Country prides in its fairness, shines.
Nobody can change “Evans,”
From Greek name cries yet says,
Equalization is centurial real mean;
Hence, no superiority takes thy scene.
His name proved his weighed crane;
He acts evenly, relieves scorns, ethnic pain.
Nobody can ever engulf to turn him insane.
Even the scimitar dangled beside recent Turk men.
In the sixteenth century,
Sir Henry Wotton announced,
“Ambassador is an honest man, sent
to lie abroad for the good of the motherland.”
EVANS is “ambassador and humane.”
He could not shelter known slain
By clouding his dignified fan
To vanish genocide, horrific rain.
He believes in eternity,
In paints, signs, truth, and equality:
“Humanity can never replace
his ambassadorial vanity.”
He has been fired from hurricane sites
To our sincere, welcome trustful hearts,
To be remembered by honest ancestries of Gomidas**,
Spelling his name by Mashtotsian*** alphabet, in shrines.
June 6, 2006
____________________________
* John Marshall Evans: American ambassador to Armenia (2004-2006), dismissed
from the diplomatic circle because he used the word genocide and not massacre.
In my opinion as a medical trained human, I cannot see any difference as far as lives are concerned. I think the geneticist will say the same, however, the justice court system should stamp their names.
I repeat to say, “Killing a person is to kill genes.
Hundreds, thousands, millions or more
Does it make incongruity?
Aren’t all beating tissues, souls?
That can breathe create—
Help humanity to lore, galore!”
** Gomidas/Komitas (1869-1935): Founder of Armenian classic music.
*** Saint Mesrop Mashtots: Inventor of the Armenian alphabet (AD 405).
No question Armenians are entitled to reparations. But like anything in life, nobody's going to grant us reparations if we just sulk in our self pity dwelling on reasons why it will never happen. If we had followed this despairing creed I guarantee you we wouldn't have an independent Armenia nor a Karabagh under our belt. Of course it will be an uphill battle but nothing happens without sweat and tears. The battle for recognition remains an uphill battle and reparations won't be any different, but that doesn't mean it should be castigated to the realms of impossibility! Demanding justice in the form of reparations for the Armenian genocide is definitely our right and is attainable contrary to what doomsayers may think. The notion of demanding reparations from Turkey for the denial period, raised by someone above, in addition to reparations for the genocide itself is an interesting line of thinking. The time, effort and money allocated to countering denial of the armenian genocide over 90 odd years could have been used to address Armenia's economic, security and social woes like poverty or state fragility. This would bring the idea of attaining justice for our cause through reparations together with the mutually important goal of alleviating poverty in Armenia and raising the standard of living.
hey..guys the ones that are telling you that Armenia's not a country can't be an Armenian..if he was that mean not anymore he must have forgotten being armenian..some people say that bcz they are not used to the way of life there..!!..2 days ago my neighbours came from Armenia after spending 1 week..they said:"" it was like a dream ..wonderland!! we wish it never ended..you can not imagine the beauty..we're tired of visiting all the gorgeous place..no pollution clean air...""..i said i wish i went with them..they photographed 300 photos :D what do you want more..
plus ashod..you don't need to be poor to leave the country!!i live in lebanon we're not living a poor life but if i had the opportunity to leave i won't refuse ..not even think about it ..cheers..
**meng kicheng payts ge menang misht hay**
Harry:
Trebizond was part of the Sevres Treaty/Wilsonian Grant. In reiteration, pursuing the Sevres Treaty (noted here and suggested by the Armenian Bar Association) is tantamount to renegotiating the end of WWI. This would be a colossal waste of time. It might make a good PhD thesis topic, however.
Regarding ARF's position on Western Armenian land reparations -- to be fair -- I suggest you ask them.
Patil,
Thank you for your kind comment. I am glad you found the article stirring. Regarding Regional Kinetics, it is best to say that it is a distributed effort and virtual in structure. It is clearly not the effort of one person.
Hye, historically, Armenian Genocide is recognized in civilized societies. Turks, (now, not the Ottomans), today have been committing their ongoing second (2nd) Genocide - of the Kurds since the 20th century and now into the 21st century. Incapable of admitting - with their ongoing denials - their debts due and owing in reparations to the Armenian nation, in perpetuity, to the Armenian peoples - all descendants of the survivors of the 1915-1923 Genocide, Turkey has supposed that over time the Armenians would become extinct, hence the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians would be forgotten, and the guilt of their hordes from the mountains of Asia conquering a Christian nation would pass on in history. Yet, today, Turkey (who bullies any who may oppose Turkey in any manner) now claims it is the Chinese nation that is committing a Genocide (which Turkey does not oppose). I see it takes a Turkey to see the Chinese committing a Genocide.... it is a Turkey who does not see itself as guilty of Genocides,,,,, Now that Turkey recognizes the Chinese committing Genocide does that mean the U.S. State Department shall also recognize the Chinese Genocide of today? Since Turkey denies the Armenian Genocide and so must the U.S. leadership follow/obey the Turks? Bullying, narcisstic, Turkey says JUMP and the U.S. State Department says HOW HIGH? Unbelievable! Manooshag
The points made by David D. are not out of the realm of possibility. Who in the 60's or 70's would have entertained the idea of an independent "term used loosely here" Armenia? Land restitution and reparations can only account for a portion of the injustices brought upon the Armenian nation.
Restitution of lands, as all have implored, is rather tricky. The Sevres Treaty, is certainly a powerful option, which Ara Papian has done significant work on. However, it has its own problems given the parties involved and the lands it covers and their current residents. the foot print that David D. writes about circumvents some of these issues, but it'll require some serious dynamic shifts to materialize. Given the volatility of the region, such shifts will happen, it is only a matter of when and whether we are ready to deal with them when they come.
George is very correct in his article that the Turkish intelligentsia will and does entertain the idea of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, yet they will support no part of a land restitution. They view the AG acknowledgment as an effort to shepherd Turkey down the road to real democratization. They'll even be happy with throwing some coin in our way to feel "cleansed", but land is a whole different issue. A sovereign route to the open seas is paramount to the future survival of Armenia as an independent nation, rather than a Russian vassal state, and one that survives on handouts from other nations and remittances from abroad.
Folks have brought up the examples of Switzerland and Austria as examples of thriving landlocked nations. Aside from the obvious points about where these countries lie, Zuerchers pride themselves on having the world's money under Bahnhoffstrasse (a wee bit exaggeration here), but none the less, Armenia and Switzerland are by no means in the same category or league. Austria is the successor to the Austro-Hungarian empire and has Germany committed to her and standing behind her, again not a similar situation to that of Armenia. So, these examples are far from convincing. Armenia's location, its neighbors and its dependence on the most basic of needs, dictates an open access to waters for any chance of survival (even then it's not a guarantee given the numb **ts that are in charge there).
Others have alluded to the need to get our house in order first, so to speak, before reclaiming our lost lands. This is a very reasonable assertion. Umfortunately, neither this nor reclaiming of lost lands will happen under the watch of the current Armenian Governent. Their recent activities by way of the Turkish-Armenian recociliation and the Artaskh issue speak volume of their priorities. For all we know, all this argument will be for naught in a few months. Living conditions in most of Armenia are terrible and need serious effort. We all bear direct responsibility for this.
Given at the state of the nation, biilding a prosperous nation, without sovereign access to open waters is that much more challenging. this doesn't mean that we stop trying till we have the water route, but it alters the game plan significantly.
One of the folks who commented that the ARF is the only hope for such changes in Armenis is correct to some degree, but with ARF polling at less thn 5% in Armenia, this is a very tall order at best.
Great article and interesting comments.
Now, how do we claim those lands? Anyone ready to get to work on that? I am going to make an educated guess and say no one is about to lift a finger. I can't imagine anyone in the Armenian diaspora or in Armenia for that matter getting off their comfortable chairs to make such a plan happen. Especially in Armenia.
Let's stop talking and dreaming about laying claim to lands and actually do something about it. Reading articles such as this one that address the topic of land reparations as well as comments to them is indeed educational and even entertaining, but if no one is truly, emphatically ready to work, the words are wasted. People read them, think "Wow, what a great, refreshing idea!" and then forget about the premise by losh kebab and pilaf time at 7 pm.
To work or not to work, that is the ultimate dilemma of the Armenian cause. Get warmed up by moving to Armenia and immersing yourself in Armenian society. While your at it, start a grassroots movement to support the aims of Regional Kinetics. Once you get about a million people signed on to the plan, convince the Armenian diaspora to do the same. Before you know it, you have some more lands and a port on the Black Sea. It's going to take a lot of work, though. Lots of work during several years. Anyone ready?
While you Armenians are so focused on G word and American foreign policy nobody talks about what is yet to come for Armenia and Armenians. How could a nation be so blinded by these nonsense issues while Azerbaijan quadrupled its GDP last 10 years and armed themselves up to yank. How about 45 fully Turkish trained Azerbaijani F-16 Pilots and 35 newly upgraded F-16 delivery from Turkey which was recently upgraded by Israel. How about unaccounted number of heavy arms delivery took place recently. Nobody is asking why all of a sudden international community wants Nagorno-Karabakh issue settled more than ever. While you people are bad mouthing your people in charge of Armenia, what you guys don't know is they are running out of options. If you think Russia is going to back you this time, think again. Trade between Turkey and Russia has reached $38 Billion a year while Armenia is costing Russia a couple billion dollars a year. You can now assume the outcome of Nagorno-Karabakh issue as well. Keep sleeping people....
What is the ARF's position on land reparations? Does the ARF recommend that personal property claims be handled by the Armenian Bar Association? Is CGarbis or the ARF suggesting that Regional Kinetics mobilize the masses in tandem with the ARF?
well said and i couldn't argree more.
Ara Nazarian - Read some history, historically speaking Europe has been one of the most violent continents/regions in human history.
Davidian - The people who have to make this "resonable claim" of land is the Armenian Government..and by extension the Armenians who live in Armenia. The Turks are certainly not going to regard any claim as "resonable" and all talk about openning borders and econmic activity will come to stand still.
Can reparations really be handled exclusively of econmic development. In Armenia's case probably not. Whether we like it or not we need our neighbors to trade with. As people in the Diaspora sit comfortable in their suburban homes typing away about Armenia should or should not do...the people in Armenia continue to suffer.
This Editorial should enter every literate space,
Translated to every langue that still exists till spreads.
To say, to the slayers, "You are gene vanishers
Can't you smell your bad breaths?"
________________________________________________
Gene Vanishers
When you vanish children,
It is genocide.
You are vanishing the gene,
Vanishing DNAs.
You, stopped the growth
To reach mature age:
To speak
To express
To write
To create
To demonstrate
You are a “vanisher.”
Do not escape.
You vanished
A human,
A soul,
Stopped a heartbeat
Never can return to life
Yet to Seed and Laugh
No more can Touch... Feel
No more, can see
Smile-Talk-Feed
No life to breathe
No Love to Creed
Think about what you have done,
Denial is inhumane
Confirm what you did,
Clearly admit.
Clear your insight.
The day soon will sight,
You will disappear.
See, with conscience clear!
It should noted that our comments are public.
Root: Yes, it is easy to sit comfortably in the diaspora and type. For many of us a diasporan existence was forced on us and not a choice. In contrast, many interests in Yerevan fault diasporans for not investing in Armenia, while simultaneously reaping the benefits of a mafia infrastructure. So we have your dilemma Mr. Root. The most capable diasporans have concluded they better things to do than to reinforce corruption in Armenia, and when they do engage in better things -- you criticize them.
Please provide us a structured plan by which diasporans can end suffering in Armenia, Armenia not preparing for any dynamic geopolitical change (that is, the future), and concerned parties drop all political and historical demands so we can engage in friendly trade with our enemies. This is not rhetorical but is a logical request based on your argument.
If what is said about adverse remarks on the Great Armenian Genocide, are true, then we now count them as deceitful, and deceit is cheating, and cheating is a lying. Liars and cheaters are not what we want in Washington, therefore immediate dismissl is manditory for those who distort history...yes, immediately (but the list is long)!
Vanessa - DO NOT POST UNDER MY NAME - I think it would be better for you to come clean on your history with attenpted adoptions form Armenia.
Verjine Svazlian's book "The Armenian Genocide and the People's Historical Memory" (2005) is available at:
National Association for Armenian Studies and Research (NAASR)
395 Concord Avenue
Belmont, MA 02478
Tel: (617) 489-1610
Fax: (617) 484-1759
www.NAASR.org
My book "The History of the Armenian Community in the USA (From Beginning to 1924)" (2000) unfortunately has already expired, but you may find it, as well as the above one, in the Libraries at NAASR, UCLA, Library of Congress, etc.
Thank you.
National Academy of Sciences, Armenia
Address: 36 Saryan St., Apt. 23
Yerevan 375002
Armenia
Tel.: (374-10) 53-60-06
E-mail: lira777@yahoo.com
I think Ara Nazarian hit on something very important with
"Others have alluded to the need to get our house in order first, so to speak, before reclaiming our lost lands. This is a very reasonable assertion. Umfortunately, neither this nor reclaiming of lost lands will happen under the watch of the current Armenian Governent. Their recent activities by way of the Turkish-Armenian recociliation and the Artaskh issue speak volume of their priorities. For all we know, all this argument will be for naught in a few months."
What Davidian is proposing could be mute if the recently reveald Madrid points go in to effect. Returning the areas surrounding Karabagh while Azerbaijan is building up its miliatary and making explicit threats of war is suicidal. Returning those areas will mean a longer contact line to protect and thus a weaker defense. We all know that any war a second time around means all civilian deaths will be Armenian. Nobody can stop Azerbaijan from atacking Karabagh. Russia cannot get into what is officially and internationally an internal Azeri affair. Armenians are being set up to loose land before our eyes. Is it too late?! What's going on right now a threat. I also believe that if Azeris are succesful in a war, they will try and take southern regions of Armenia. This is an immediate threat!
Davidian:
There are plenty of extremely capable Diaspora Armenians who are engaged in "better things" regarding Armenia that I have extreme admiration, support and respect for. These Armenians are not sitting around thinking about "reinforcing corruption". They are there, on the ground, face to face, making Armenia becoming a better place. The reality is the mafia is not interfering in their work nor I they using the mafia as an excuse not go there and do something meaningful.
What I am actually criticizing are intelligent people such as yourself who choose the spend their time thinking about topics that will require you to do nothing more then pontificate about what should be done. Moreover, the burden of executing your ideas will fall solely on Armenians living in Armenia. I think your idea of "preparing" for "dynamic geopolitical change" amounts nothing more then making "reasonable claims".
I dislike Turkey as much as anyone. I don't like them, and have no plans to befriend them. The difference is I don't have to live next to them. Armenia does. I am not going to dictate to people living there what they should or should not feel about their neighbors. It was Turkey who closed the border with Armenia.
The Diaspora existence is not forced on anyone anymore. Many people from the Diaspora have moved there. You CAN move there if you wish. So when your article gets criticized don't think of yourself as in the same camp as others who are acting for a real change.
Furthermore, if someone disagrees with the ideas in the article does not automatically mean that is what the enemy wants us to do. No nation or people think alike. Not sure why we would be any different. Sorry but not everyone is impressed.
Has it ever occurred to you that Turkey actually wants Armenia to press for reparations and land. By Armenia do so it can galvanize its own population to continue to keep us at arms length. Continue to isolate us economically. As long as Armenia is economically weak it is no threat. If it ever became an economic powerhouse then it would have real problem on its hands.
Turkey is much more comfortable dealing with an active PKK on its land or a thriving Kurdistan on its border.
You are mentioning Battle of Kosovo happened in the year 1212. The actual date is 15. 06. 1389 in julian calendar, or in gregorian 28.06.1389.
Battle of Kosovo is very important day of serbian history and the date is engraved in our hearts and minds. You can compare this date to the date when armenian genocide started. Those who understand the importance of this battle to serbian nation, will understand why are we making this much noise about todays situation in Kosovo, which we consider as a cradle of nation.
In the battle Armenians came with turkish army as vazals, but when they have seen the ortodox crosses on our flags,they flee to our side. The rest of armenians that survived this battle went to woods around city Sokobanja and build monastery which is called Jermencic (little armenian), which stand till now days.
But you were very right telling that armenians first came in touch with Serbia around beggining of 13 century. Sveti Sava (Saint Sava) is a name of the men who decline his right to trone as the oldest son, to became the first archbishop of Serbia, builder of many monasteries and schools. He is among our biggest saints.
In the year 1218 he went to Armenia. He was charmed with the beauty of armenian monasteries so much, that he did bring armenian builders to Serbia where they build monastery Vitovnica. In the wall of the monastery there is a text in stone made half in serbian,half in armenian.
For all my armenian brothers
Ivan
How far have we come? Are we witnessing a new beginning to the end of Armenia?
This OSCE crap, Russia, U.S.A,France, Azerbaijan and Turkey determining the future of Artsakh. Just like the 20's all over again. The world and regional players swinging sledgehammers on our borders once again. The Turks and Azeris have nothing but time on there sides as they continue to coil and constrict around our lands.
We need to bring to the table Western Armenia and Nakchivan. PUT IT ALL ON THE TABLE! KARS, ARARAT, ANI etc. TURKS have conditions, WE HAVE CONDITIONS!
Opening the current Turkish/Armenia border RECOGNIZES that BORDER. WE MUST NOT ACCEPT THIS. WE must not sell out........ IT may be time once again for all those chest thumpers to lock and load on the next flight to the revolution. If our current Government signs away Artsakh, civil war breaks out or a coup, don't be fooled it can happen. I'd much rather see Turks and Azeris in the crosshairs than our own blood. With our borders restored properly, then you will see peace and prosperity all over Armenia.
Root:
It is a poor assumption that participants in this discussion have not tried to better conditions in Armenia or NKR. That is, do not assume that I or others simply sit around and pontificate. If indeed I am wasting time, it’s my time to waste.
Pontification, or to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner, does not carry with it a burden of execution. You can not have it both ways: either Armenia’s caravan continues -- while the diasporan dogs bark -- or you find logic in this geopolitical claim and its execution scares you.
You claim Armenia’s economic isolation will be alleviated, with the current Armenian-Turkish border opening, without providing any analytic evidence in support. And “Has it ever occurred to you that Turkey actually wants Armenia to press for reparations and land.” -- NO, it has not! You also state, “By Armenia do so it can galvanize its own population to continue to keep us at arms length.” Your statement shows a lack of understanding of the Turkish socialization and the myth of the founding of the Turkish state. The only thing the Turks hate more than Armenians are Kurds. A majority of Turks are already against the border opening. See: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=174775
We are in agreement that a nation consists of many opinions, not all members think alike. It can be argued that the strength of a nation is in the diversity of its thoughts and actions. There is no mutual exclusivity between striving for a better Armenia and demanding an indemnified Armenia that can survive on its own . However, we differ in that I articulated a prevalent Armenian political position, and you would rather this articulation disappear. If I never published this article, you would have had nothing to say. You never provided a constructive negative rebuttal. My article represents a political claim and you simply don’t like it.
If you wish to respond to this, feel free, I have no intention of restating my position again.
wow!
good for the armenians
Random Armenian suggested, "What Davidian is proposing could be mute if the recently reveald Madrid points go in to effect." Hmm...Why? We really don't know how this latest episode in the Karabakh drama will end, how much of the Madrid protocol, if any, will be adopted and interpreted. Even if Armenia ends up in a compromised position, resolve towards historical indemity and the long term survival of Armenia will not decrease.
Davidian
Its self-evident that if borders opened between Armenian and Turkey, there would be an increase in economic activity. No David, keep the borders closed, its working out so well. Point to any thriving economy and you will see an open border. No, lets not change anything. Let's just go with your "prevalent Armenian political position" and wait for that port.
I fully agree that Eilian Williams deserves official worldwide Armenian recognition for his incredible contributions and sacrifices made for Armenian causes.
A true humanitarian.
Sir:
Comment number 2446 submitted by Sylvia-MD-Poetry attracted my attention, since she mentioned that her granduncle's wife Katrina, the daughter of Yousef Karagulla was the only survivor in his family.
Yousef Karagulla was my maternal great-grandfather. My father, now deceased, was born in Mardin, and spoke often of Katrina, Numan his uncle and of course Stella and their son Philip. Sadly, we have known about the tragic deaths of my great grandfather and also of his son Numan and Stella, although my father said that the latter two were massacred by local Kurds. Our family, though not Armenian, also suffered the massacres and loss of property.
Those murderers, those assassins, were COWARDS. They relied on their vast numbers and a tremendous supply of military superiority in arms, to massacre a minority Christian population, almost totally unarmed.
One little detail, Numan also had another son, who survived, and who in fact was brought by the Kurds to my grandmother (Yousef's daughter), to be sold to her. My father said in fact that she did buy him (her own nephew), but that he died shortly afterwards beacause he was already in such terrible condition.
One last detail, Numan, graduated in surgery from Johns Hopkins University in 1905,not Harvard, and Stella was from Baltimore.
My father also met with Mr Gulbenkian, Mr. 5% as he was known at the IPC in Baghdad.
Keep up your good work.
Interesting man no doubt. A fedayi (freedom fighter) in his own right. Measures of restitution is more of what I'd like to hear about. I fully concur with submitting a similar resolution to Congress and would put funds towards any such initiative lead by the ANCA. If were serious about our rights, and want the state department to take us a little more seriously, we should be playing hard ball like Williams and demanding justice.
The argument that all of Armenia’s economic hardships will be resolved after the Armenian-Turkish border opens is a misguided one. Anyone living in Armenia knows that most non-food items made for human consumption and convenience available here are produced in Turkey, including clothing, construction materials, home goods and so forth. This trade is one-sided--Turkey is not buying a thing from Armenia and there are no signs that it ever would. If the border opens, there will be a virtual blanketing of cheap Turkish products, most likely foodstuffs as well, driving competing Armenian companies out of business. As a result, Armenia will be totally economically dependent on Turkey, while now it is only partially dependent on the inferior goods and services being imported into the country via Georgia. The border is virtually open--why don’t diasporans understand this?
Armenia’s economy by the way is doing just fine, considering the global recession. Even with the shrinkage in the growth rate (Armenia’s GDP fell 15.7 percent from January to May), things appear to be relatively stable on the surface. How long that will persist, however, is anyone’s guess, but the downturn would not continue to spiral because the border is “closed,” that I’m certain of.
Nice editorial Armenian Weekly! You forgot to mention that Turkey also has Greek-Cypriot blood on its hands.
Andy, you write that "the Tashnag nightmare scenario—of the Armenian market being flooded with Turkish goods, and Turkey taking over all industrial sectors, leading to Armenian economic serfdom and client state status—will also be unavoidable".
However, this has already happened to Armenia at the hands of Mother Russia. Russia has killed 3 generations of Armenians already and yet it is continously ignored.
As we speak, Russia and their minions in Yerevan are starving and killing the country. They are driving the rest into expatriation. They've crippled the Armenian soul and mind.
Meanwhile, not a word on these pages of today's slaughter. The Diaspora is focused 100 years in the past or 50 years into the future...on Turkey.
What drives the Tashnag, really? Is it true concern for 'Armenians' or is it rather a self-identity of personal and ancestoral vegengance against the Turk?
Any honest and objective perspective points to the latter. Ironically, this is another losing position. Grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Genocide survivors may stay connected through this identity, but it is not sustainable. As greed and corruption lose the Homeland, the Diaspora will fall apart as Great-great Grandchildren and beyond cease to have a real Armenian identity beyond simply hating Turkey.
As I read some of the comments posted in here I am disturbed by the fact that most people do not realize that The Turkish Government master-minded the genocide and used Kurds to implement their plans. The government has historically left the Kurds uneducated and has used religion as a means to use them in any way they want to. The majority of Kurds were taught until very recently that it is a sin to call themselves Kurds as it is racist and were taught to call themselves Muslim. This is a government that denies covered women access to the Universities in the west. As an educated Kurd, I acknowledge the terrifying and inhumane history and the role that the Kurds have played in Turk's genocide but I also encourage the readers to recognize that the Kurds back then were not cognizant of their identity. Only recently Kurds have become conscious of their identity and resist the government use of religion as a means of assimilation. Today, even most of my religious Kurdish friends acknowledge the genocide support the Armenian thesis. This is happening because the Kurds are able to go to school now as compared to 100 years ago. Similarly, my grandfather told me that they hid 6 Armenian kids for 3 months in our house before they were able to safely transport them to their families who were able to escape to Syria.
So the idea is that instead of blaming the individuals who were coerced and convinced by the government and their own ignorance lets blame the government. I think this will help us move forward.
Maybe the proponents of opening of the Armenia-Turkey boarder are right after all. Maybe most basic necessities etc. in Armenia being imported from Turkey via Georgia isn't enough for the needs of Armenia. Maybe it is self-evident that more one-sided trade will be much better for Armenia than the current level of one-sided trade. Maybe a virtually open border isn't good enough for us. Maybe inundating the Armenian market with more goods is good for the consumers of Armenia. Maybe Armenian companies need to be driven out of business because they will henceforth learn how to operate successfully. Maybe a modicum of mutual acceptance of coexistence/survival isn't necessary for more trade and maybe the latter will come around by itself. Maybe political aims of states and how much they are in common between any two state have no relevance in trade. For example, Russia and Turkey or US and China are trading extensively and thriving, right?
In short, there hasn't been a single study by the Armenian government, other governments, international bodies, or diaspora organizations to prove that this trade would be harmful to Armenia. If there were any negative aspects of this trade, maybe they would have told us by now.
Friedman must do his homework more carefully, the last 150 years, turks have only lost land, while their political system cannot function without the West and USA (or Russia). Moreover, during these 150 years, there never was well formed Armenian, Greek, Syrian or Iranian states, while Russia was in the midst of two deadly revolutions. In the best scenario for Friedman's turkic superpower, we need at least two centuries for the geopolitical landscape of the Euroasia changes in their favor, assuming that Armenians have the mentality of sheep, which is highly unlikely.
Also, to reflect Ashot's comments, we should look at the Russian dominion over Armenia as the actual practical test. Soviet influence migrated to South America, China, as well as other places far away from Russia, but a 3-4 million Armenian state persisted and remained Armenian. It's not so simple to win against Mesrop Mashtoz, the only way to win Mashtoz is to kill the body and mind of the nation. The whole Europe, Russia and Turks have tried this for almost 300 years, and they have failed.
Perhaps, Armenians are dorment now, but this sleep will not last long, they will be awaken soon...
Concerning the Diaspora, it acts like a complex viro-biological entity, when it assimilates, it acts like a connector agent. It also has it's awakening moments. So, I wouldn't underestimate the potentials of Diaspora.
Yes, and maybe we should surrender Nagorno-Karabagh and the surrounding regions under Armenian control to Azerbaijan and while we're at it, become an autonomous territory of Turkey. That will also be good for the needs of Armenia too, right? That way we won't have to worry about governmental or economic issues whatsoever, we will be entirely dependent on Turkey's historically stable economy. Maybe social life and our culture will be affected, but after all, it will be better for the livelihood of Armenians to be as close to Turkey as well as Azerbaijan as possible by having open borders and free trade with our sincere, friendly neighbors, who wish the Armenians no harm.
Hagop, do you realize what you are saying? I cannot believe that there are Armenians like you who think this way. Your comment is perhaps the most unpatriotic, defeatest, careless text I have ever read regarding the Armenian cause and Armenia's statehood. Free trade across an open border is not the end-all solution to historically bitter Armenian-Turkish relations; anyone with any rational, common sense would realize this. Clearly it is Turkey's economy that will reap the benefits of an open border, not Armenia's--think about it. Turkey at will could always impose another embargo whenever it wants to cripple Armenia economically--what's to prevent it? Has any government or international body successfully prevented any kind of aggressive, destabilizing actions in the past by Turks against Armenians? Am I the only person who thinks this way, or do other fellow Armenian diasporans living in Armenia agree as well?
I'd better stop leaving and reading comments in this forum. As they always say here, good luck.
Novikova and Armenia will blame everybody - Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey in the potential war. But Novikova and Armenia will not talk about two root-problems:
1. Armenia occupies Azeri territories.
2. Armenia ethnically cleansed the occupied territories from Azeri population.
3. Armenia captured these Azeri territories and expelled Azeris from their homes by means of war.
I guess the war can be justified only when it serves Armenian interests...
Take care of the root-problems. Give Azeri territories back to Azerbaijan and there will be no danger of a new war.
I am sorry, someone is posting under my name, but I am not sure about any private adoptions in Armenia and am not privvy to anyone's personal information regarding their independent Armenian Adoptions. My name is Sona and I like to believe that it is OK to purchase healthy babies for $40,000.00. My husband and I did!
I do agree with Vart, that it is embarassing to think that just anyone could purchase our children. Someone like Jolie, has had many issues. If you have money, anything is possible in Armenia. Even a shady past.
I am not sure who Vanessa is or what the REAL issues are. I only listen to gossip from a bunch of odars. SAHM here and I am half Armenian, My husband is a doctor so I am rich and can do as I please. I don't know how to read, write or speak Arenian. We live in Potomac, Maryland.
Lots of Adoption Agencies closing down. I might have been snow jobbed by my adoption agency but I don't care, I have my baby.
I didn't want an older child, just a healthy baby. Even though they have a harder time finding a home. Who cares about the true orphans, I wanted a baby and waited for a poor pregnant woman to relinquish hers. Not sure where all my money went in Armenia?
Why is it that Armenia has one of the worst human trafficking issues for the size of country?
Here is one of the reports out of Armenia. American government agencies have much more reports.
http://www.aiprg.net/UserFiles/File/wp/jan2005/WP0505.pdf
Maybe this is why agencies have not been able to adopt many children out of Armenia. So they flock to the poor African nations where healthy babies are in supply.
There were 29 Orphan Visas issued in 2008 to Americans for Armenian adoptions.
The majority 17 were private independent adoptions. 10 more Armenian children went to local Armenian families in Armenia. 12 were adopted by French Armenians who are preferred over the Armenian Americans who are disconnected from their culture with barely a drop of Armenian blood in them.
the only thing left to adopt are the poor unhealthy souls in armenia, the Down Syndrome and other special needs that Armenia will easily adopt out to anyone who will take them. The price is still high $26,000K. But this is a deal because Armenia has drasctically lowered their fees (as one agency falsely reports) and there is no inome requirement anymore of $100K (there never was an income requirement only an Adoption agency requirement)
What is the truth? you decide? factually information or the babbling of a bored SAHM with nothing better to do than profess her loyalty to someone who has been kicked out of Georgian adoptions, fired from her last employer and got her last facilitator Mariza in Georgia arrested.
So glad that someone has decided to come clean.
Come on most of you seem like realatively intelligent people. Do you really believe Jolie is going to adopt in Armenia? If she could qualify anyone can. If anyone is stupid enough to believe this or the other stories that people post online about themselves or their families on blogs you live in la la land.
Anyone dumb enough to post pictures of their family, home and other personal information is either naive or asking for trouble.
You cannot possible believe anyone in their right mind would do this?
Me and me wife live in Erevan, we try to adopt heer. Our countre is very dirty, make it hard for us to adopt.
when we hear ofs amergatzis adptig our kids we knows they pay big moneys to government. we have 2 girls wnat to give home to boyz, we nees our boys for military. we told that non aremnisns adopt too. but thay must have som moneys for thes. local price is 600 dram, our salary es 90 dram a month.
tanks god for armenians who adopt chilren.
To the previous comment:
The issue with Turkey is that Turkey's life would be much simpler if Armenia did not exist or if it was reduced to the level of a puppet state. Turkey is not interested in strong, independent and, perhaps even friendly Armenia and in this respect the "nightmare scenario" may indeed turn into a nightmare for Armenia. The Russians are no angels but they are the best protection we have. Would love to see US or EU in this role but for some reason they are in no particular rush.
I briefly read a section of the book concerning Armenia and while the author makes some valid predictions, he makes some obvious mistakes as well. He writes (p. 109) "Azerbaijan is hostile to Armenia - and therefore close to Iran and Turkey." While Azerbaijan certainly is hostile and is allied with Turkey, the allusion that Azerbaijan and Iran have coinciding interests stands on weak pillars. Iran certainly does not want an emboldened Azerbaijan nor does it want Turkey to stick its nose in the affairs of the Caucasus, making it a reliable bulwark against further pan-Turkic expansion.
Fascinating article, though.
Garbis,
I have no claims to patriotism or any other label. However, I am truly sorry you took my highly cynical words at face value. Just extrapolating what the proponents of border opening have been saying, we have interconnected yet utterly incoherent ideas like the above floating around. I am merely putting them together, not advocating the opening of the border.
This brings about a second point. Blaming this situation solely on the successive iterations of the government-mafia duo since Armenia's independence is a woeful misreading of the problem. There is an abject failure for all intents and purposes of all Armenian institutions in Armenia and Diaspora to attempt to comission a single serious (even non-serious) economic (forget about political, social or any other field) feasibility study, or even a honest non-professional assessment of the situation. There is also an abject failure on the part of individual thinking Armenians to foster debate on the issue.
Since there is no real debate, anything I or someone else says goes critically unchallenged. So, I can continue saying: Trade just happens in a vacuum; the market is the real arbiter; readiness to trade has no political implications; there is no internal/external political will associated with countries' economic success and so on.
...why on earth would any Armenian host a dinner for Yovanogloo????...especially after Obamogloo's blunder. I would be so repulsed by her presence that the last thing I would be able to do is eat. What were the event organizers at Ferrahian thinking? Do they not follow the news or bother to turn on the television or pick up a newspaper once in a while??????????...perhaps this is too much to ask.
All this wrongheadedness is giving me an ulcer. Keep up the great work Garen. The fight continues.
Calling for the resignation of the Foreign Minister of Armenia does not addresses the dire situation surrounding Karabakh. The ultimate authority to formulate foreign policy lies with the President.
If this call is simply to express indignation and disapproval then it's understandable, but that doesn't change one iota from the circumstances that led Armenia and Karabakh to a potentially disastrous outcome.
Alternately if this gesture intends to identify a lightening rod then it has missed its target.
We should be ashamed of our indeference toward that man who deserves much more respect that those armenian organizations who are so-called fighting for our historical rights by being paid by the comunity and that noble Welsh shepherd alone fighting with his limited means for our historical rights.So we all are sheeps(Armenians)who should follow that noble Welsh soldier.Once again all those Armenian political organizations of OPERETTE prouved their AMATEURISH attitude toward Armenian historical rigts.Once a famous political personality declared "Armenian's historical rights is a noble case,but at the hands of incapables lawyers(traditional political partys". Baron Sasunian hokvov ev srdov dzez hed em,aroghdcutyun ev yergar gyankh ge maghtem dzezi Brukselen
I agree partially with Ashod about Russia. They are a major player and small countries like Armenia are the pawns. I don't believe there is any hope for Armenia. The country is in a permanently stalemated position. Worse yet, the people there mostly sold their souls to the Russians in return for the appearances of real country. When the Russians took off the training wheels so to speak, all of the paper republics, including Armenia, hit the ground hard. Based on the 1 million+ people who abandoned their beloved "Hayrenik" for places like Hollywood, I think that says it all about the Republic of Armenia and the qualities of its (former) citizens.
As for Armenians who have lived for generations outside Armenia for many generations, I think that also speaks for itself. Unlike Armenia, there has been a certain level of stability that has lasted in those scattered communities for over a century. Obviously Ashod isn't aware of this or is avoiding it altogether. Armenians, like Irish, Scottish, Jewish and a number of other people tend to function better in a decentralized system than in a formal state. Thats just the reality and the facts back it up.
Dear RoomArmo; You are right that Europe has had a bloody past. But, give the last two WW's, they have made serious efforts towards establishing continued peace. Europe has been free of major bloodshed for the past 50 or so years. They ought to be commended for that . My reference to Europe is that of today and not of the foregone days.
Hagop's point is well taken, and one that has been discussed previously as well. No effort has really been made to conduct an in depth analysis on the opening of the border and its effects on the Armenian economy, strategic interests and standard of life of Armenians. A handful of partisan reports have been carried out by groups with dogs in the race to 'prove' their point pne way or another. It is truly a shame that we all have failed to truly analyze and understand the impact of the border opening on Armenia.
It is of critical importance for a country to live in peace with its neightbors and develop successful commerce and other bilateral relationships that benefit both parties. Unfortunately, the Armenian government, besides beating the drum of border opening, has done none of the hard work required for the borcder opening to be a success. This is, I think, where a large chunk of the resignation about the folks here who care to write and think about this issue comes from.
The recent banning of the YAN "juice" exports from New Zealand is something that will not be fixed no matter whether the Turkish border is open or not. These and similar issues are things that need to be worked out if we were to be serious about export economy, if and when the border is opened.
Hye, from Canberra Times (Australia - 07-18-09)
"KILLERS WHO FLOUT THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH" - re the Armenian Genocide....
Dr. Mehmed Resid, who shortly before he killed himself, admitted
"My Turkishness prevailed over my medical calling."
Manooshag
What we can do ? get the crooks out of the government and possibly go back to our land. As long as Serge is president with his mob, I will not return to Armenia. I came to the US back in 1991 from Yerevan and have visited few times and have many friends who do business in Armenia - All I can say is -Armenian gov is a big Karbakh Mob - they are not even Armenian patriots and will sell our land to the damn turks in the end. Sad but true. The only way we can make things better or change for the better is kick this short crooks out of office and put real Armenians in the government.
I am shocked that we have come to this state of affairs! When will we remember that a house divided will fall?
Armenian hero's gave their lives to protect their families against Turkish/Azeri invaders historically and not too long ago, until 1993 in Armenia and Artsakh. The blockade was slapped onto Armenia and Artsakh while the world watched. And now comes the final insult and injury, Azeri and Turkey getting the nails ready to hammer onto the Armenia coffin. Is that democracy in action? Is that justice? Where is the moral outrage?
Armenia deserves much better than this. My father, Avedis Ahigian, living in his homeland, Hazarin, Chimishgatsak, Turkish Armenia, who was a survivor of the 1915 genocide, answered my question when I asked him as an 8 year old child in 1939 , "What makes us so different from othe nations, why do you love Armenia so much, what is so great being an Armenian? " He thought a while, then solemnly said, "Always remember that Armenia never started any wars to take other peoples land, they only fought to defend their homeland. What other country can say that today?"
My grandmother, Nartoohi Parnagian would always say, "The problem with the Armenian nation and people is that they are their own worst enemy." The bell is tolling right now to wake us up to the terrible dangers there are ahead for the Armenian nation.
We are being tested right now to what kind of metal we are made of. Let's look into ourself and see if we are truly sons and daughters of a people who come from an heroic nation which is still admired by educated people who know their history.
It is miraculous that Armenia survived the Genocide in 1915 to solve the "Armenian Question", only to threatened with another major catastrophie like the one approaching. We must not forget what happened to Armenia starting in December 7, 1988 to 1993. it suffered an earthquake that destroyed 1/3 of industrialized parts of Armenia, the fall of communism to democracy overnight, an inhumane economic blockade by Turkey and Azerbaijan, war on Artsakh (Nagorno Karabakh/Armenian borders. I saw with my own eyes the tremendous death and destruction showered on inocent Armenian lives. Yes, there were many countries sending much needed aid which was appreciated. But where were the democratic countries that stood up against the tyrants who believe that they are strong enough to crush this small Armenian nation.
And today, there are democratic countries that are trying to convince the Armenian government to give in to Turkey and Azerbaijan in order to keep Turkey and Azerbaijan happy and content, finally solving the Armenian Question once and for all. In a short time, maybe 50 years, 100 years, or a little longer, there will be no Armenia. That's how it looks to me. Is that what we want?
Free Ashot Manukyan you are really a turkish agent mascarading as god know what. go fool yourself.
Mr Dudaev,
The actual root problem is the warmongering mentality of Turks. The three points that you have listed refer precisely to Turks. They occupy and masacre all civilations that they encounter. If they cannot exterminate their victims, they enslave them or ethnically cleans them.
Be a human for once and read your history with an objective mind.
Actually, Friedman is like a so called “sailer” sailing his boat on a paper map. He may predict certain obvious things, but in order to go deeper, he needs to be actually sailing a real boat in a real ocean, because the last mast angle may determine whether he survives the storm or not.
Go to Arstakh and Armenia and gather some real facts before predicting anything. Because, a single soldier's last bullet may really change the whole scheme of the future.
Concerning the claim of Armenians in Armenia “selling their soul”, please visit Armenia and talk with real Armenians and not those that are trying to sell their last tomato box for a few drams. I really pity the Armenians that have suffered so much in poverty, and I would not make such a careless claim about them "Selling their soul". Have you ever suffered starvation, believe me, you will sell your soul and body if you had the experience. Did you know that Komitas did not understand one word of Armenian when he was brought to Echmiazin, would you say that he sold his soul. Believe me when I say that the key is Mashtoz, you cannot kill Mashtoz very easily, even if you entirely assimilate. Have you heard of such names as Hrachya Acharyan or Gevorg Jahugyan, etc. If not, then please learn more before making some claims.
I lived in the Fresno area for awhile and we had some very good Armenian friends there. That was the first time I had heard anything about the Armenian genocide. It sounds like the book that was reviewed has not been translated into English. However I will begin to look for more information on that period of time. Thank you for sparking my interest in this subject. I work for Footnote.com which is a historical document and genealogical research site. I am always interested in reviewing history and specific incidents. This is one that I have had interest in for quite some time!
Thanks again
It is unfortunate that we know the truth, we know what is going on yet we can't do anything about it..it is mind blowing to know that Turkey after all this, still can stand and preach democracy, freedom of speech and how civilized and collective society they are...
I am just happy that we have people like Rifat and others who put their lives on line to publish the truth get their word out.. I just hope that sooner than later the world comes to a realization that Turkey is working under false and wrong pretense and get all their dirt out of water once and for all....
I am tired of reading over and over again about how Turkey is using its evil claws to gather up all the power to use against every single man who stands up against it... ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.. our leaders should wake up and smell the evil that is represented by this entity called Turkey...
This book needs be published in English. This book needs to be circulated among the people all over the world.. the more we share with the world, the better chance we have educating everyone what truly goes on in the depths of the eviland Turkey.
G
As an Armenian of Istanbul I know very well the role of Jewish Organizations in blockading the Armenian Genocide Resolution in the American Congress.It's an undeniable fact that Israel and Turkey are two twin Jewish states in the Middle East and even Muslim Turkish intellectuals recognize this fact.The Sabbateans and other Crypto Jews in Turkey founded the secular Republic of Turkey and by annihilating Christian subjects they became the kings and queens of the new Turkish Republic in all spheres like Business,Art,Military,Bureaucracy.There are so strong that only a few Turks had the chance to enter the Turkish Foreign Ministry and most of the Turkish Foreign Ministers were of Sabbatean origin like Tevfik Rustu Aras,Tansu Çiller or İsmail Cem İpekçi etc.Today there is an internal war between the Sabbatean elite and the sympathizers of the rulling AKP in Turkey.Wish that AKP will prevail and the dark rulling elite of this country will become history.
I will not send one cent of donation for the khatchkar memorial of khachadour Garabedian; I am sure if he were alive he would have urged every Armenian to donate for Artsakh and Armenia, where the smallest fund is urgenly needed; when for centuries Armenia was deliberately subjected to all sorts of human rights crimes and is still subjected to up to this day, even by our own unashamed U.S. government; when now Armenia is facing total extinction and is in urgent need of our moral, physical and financial help, it is insane to see so much waste going for no purpose at all.
Every Armenian should realize that the investment in Artsakh of $ 10,000 can secure the basic income for 10 families; I therefore, urge all those who have already donated to withdraw their money and donate to Artsakh fund, and why not in memory of Khachadour Garabedian. Wake up all Armenians!!! the enemy is at our throat, and if we do not unite NOW and put all our available resources for this cause we would lose ARMENIA for ever.
I am totally in agreement with the above!!!! I don't know why Armenia's Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandyan rushed and signed that April 22, 2009 joint statement when it was apsolutely against our Armenia's and our Artsakh's interest and our sovereignty. That was uncalled for and they will have to answer to our future generations with their very short-sighted deeds.
I fully agree with all the resolutions and the writings above that are in the interest of our Nation; Armenia and Artsakh along with the Diasporan Armenians. The only reason why us the Diasporans are scattered all around the world is because of the Genocide. If the Turkish government didn't annihilate almost Two Million Armenians from 1915 through 1923, we would have been a nation of more than 44 Million and not just a mere 10 million Armenians around the world. Turkey must recognize the Armenian Genocide and must give our lands back to the owner. After all, Turkey in the name of deportation totally annihilated our nation and got hold of our belongings, our houses and our lands. A renumeration must be paid by returning our anscestral lands. The legal document of Wilson Arbitration must be ensued and succeed and be given back to the Armenians.
About our Artsakh; it was Stalin who gave to the "Azeri" Turks both our Nagorno-Karabakh and our Nakhichevan lands to the Turks to appease and please Attaturk and the Turks. Armenians fought back the war unleashed by Azerbaijan and won the war. The world powers must recognize these facts for the self determination of Nagorno Karabakh and for the safety of the Armenian people both in Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh. The world powers must remember how the "Azerbaijani" pogroms on broad daylight attacked and killed barbarically all Armenians in Baku and three other cities in "Azerbaijan". Therefore Nagorno-Karabakh must have her self-determination also for the safety of all the Armenian people in "Azerbaijan". The world powers must also remember how the "Azerbaijani" soldiers demolished in Julfa, Naxchivan 3,000 Armenian cemetery stones "Khachkars" from the middle ages.
non è la prima volta che gli ebrei in turchia disconoscono le atrocità turche verso gli armeni per salvare il collo
baciare la mano al carnefice è un tentativo di salvarsi il collo
I agree with Kamer Minassian 100%.
TO Ara Nazarian:
Regarding Europe: By the end of WW II most of Eurpoe was devistated. Including Austria. One can argue by the end of WW II Armenia was actually better off then many Eurpoean countries that we hold up as models now. Yet in the past 50 years or so those countries were able to rebuild, become stronger then ever. While Armenia wilted under the rule of the Soviet Union. By the way in the past 50 years much of Eastern Europe was only at peace because they were essentially controlled by the Soviet Union. An artifical peace.
Also you forgetting about the Bosnian/Serbian war that resulted in NATO forces to intervene. So the long and short of it is many countries have had to overcome nasty neighbors. If Germany and France can make amends... there just might be hope for us.
CGarbis:
Stop becoming hyseterical and relaize not everyone agrees with you. Those that don't agree with you are not traitors. Your basic claim is if the borders open then it will have an adverse impact on Armenia and then Turkey will close the border and thus have another adverse impact. Take your pick.
Remember Turkey shut down the border. So now we are advocating that the Turks continue to do what was orginally designed as a punative measure..and we want to do it to protect us from ourselves. Because Armenians will just go buy anything that Turkey wants to sell us. All of this will cause mass unemployment and Armenian business which currently sell wares in this closed economy will go out of business. How provincial is your thinking.
hi, i am emrah an i am turkish. i actually like this news. this is kind of right.if we don't count armenian genocide or (so-called genocide) i don't know maybe it's happen. i have never believe things blindly. the true is Turkish officials should be the last ones to talk of genocide given their country’s culpability in the Armenian Genocide. that's right
we should solve that problem first before we talk about other countries's situation. also, of course, i don't believe my country's prime minister. he is an ignorant. but if we forget about what he said about this situation, uyghiurs and tibetans are really being underdog in china, i know that because i am living in china. i was an eyewitness with something.
any way last thing i want to say is that turkish pm is doign that because of next elections. he just cares about votes. he is an ignorant he doesn't even know what is going on in this country. uyghurs killed han people in here but but turkish pm is screaming chinese people are doing genocide. that's just really foolish thing turkish pm does. if china recognizes armenian genocide claim that is not really going to work. it's all about mentality of the people. i am leaving my msn in case of somebody wants to talk about it to me. don't worry i am not spy or something. thanks....
emrahtuncer551@hotmail.com
Harry, your full agreement with my thought is a big sigh of relief for me and a great hope for the Armenian nation; let us wait and see how many sensible Armenians there are out there; hopefully, the donors for the Khatchkar will one by one withdraw and donate to Artsakh projects and the key to this sway is in the hands of the President of PAAVA Sandra Selverian, hopefully she will come to her senses and act quickly.
Absolutely, my Armenian friend. We will strongly condemn the genocide of Armenians by the Turks, and will never allow the restoration of the Turk empire once terrorizing the Eurasian people.
I was saddened to hear of the passing of Aram Kostoglian. As AYF juniors in the NY Hyortik Chapter, Aram and Mossik were our advisors. Aram was always quiet and serious and Mossik was the one to get us up and going. From demonstrating in front of the Turkish Embassy to watching soccer games or writing articles for the Hairenik to win the coveted trophy…there was never a dull moment. I miss those years and the friends. Now we all live in different parts of the country and converse thru email. My sympathies to Aram’s family and dear friends. – Bea Esegelian Movsesian
Hi, emrah,
You are a good Turk. What are you doing in China?
Root wrote to CGarbis: "Remember Turkey shut down the border. So now we are advocating that the Turks continue to do what was orginally designed as a punative measure..and we want to do it to protect us from ourselves. Because Armenians will just go buy anything that Turkey wants to sell us. All of this will cause mass unemployment and Armenian business which currently sell wares in this closed economy will go out of business. How provincial is your thinking."
Provide us with a political and economic analysis that demonstrates opening the border between Armenia and Turkey will benefit anybody. This has been requested several times already. You may actually have an argument and not even know it. All you have provided so far is a wishful affirmative inference for such a border opening.
Such a comprehensive study must include a competitive analysis of all major Armenian industries covering at a minimum: management team expertise, product sales & marketing, product planning, market channels and development, government relations, cross-border transportation, international business planning, credit and banking reviews, and yes, accounting practices. Then one must compare these industries with their Turkish counterparts and using Armenian and Turkish demographic buying patterns, determine the viability probability of each industry assuming free and open competition with the added affects of partial and severe protectionism. Past, current and projected trading patterns must be evaluated. In parallel, a comparative study must be done with the only other country having a similar geo-political and economic position and that is Georgia. Such a study must determine why Georgia's GDP is down nearly 40% from a year ago considering it has free and open trade with Turkey, Azerbaijan, and has many Black Sea ports. This is economics 101 and barely scratches the surface. As far as I have researched no such study exits in the public domain, yet individuals such as yourself claim they can make solid conclusions without any studies. If the study is not accurate, such as not taking into account: general corruption, influence pedaling, nepotism, fraud, racketeering, graft, extortion, cartels, blackmail, potential EC-centric liability and product quality issues, exit strategies for subsequent blockades with a change in the Turkish government, Georgian and Iranian reaction, changes in employment patterns and the consequences of any subsequent brain drain, etc, there is every chance of a failed endeavor. This is no different than starting a war with zero planning or analysis and assuming "our side" will win for no apparent reason.
Turkey has reiterated that a solution to the NK conflict must precede any border opening. Such a solution will vastly change any subsequent Turkish border opening and an equivalent study must be done with Azerbaijan as the target including the combines affects of both border openings. None of this effort even takes into account historical issues which served as the basis for this entire commentary.
Great article for discussion;
GDP poor evaluation of livelihood- commenting to someones post
Land Reparations is feasible for Armenians since, there is tons of documentation regarding this issue (Hilmar Kaiser's analysis looks the best). Geno recognition and $$ would definitely suffice Armenia's poor (if the money did go there). Territorial Shifts is out of question- especially en route to Black Sea- who'd be crazy enough to give up port territory- That's the central trading mechanism. Look, Karabakh's territory is the kentical issue- define the new borders and enforce them internationally- we want the people to be safe; Armenians were defending ourselves (still are). Any aggression is against Armenians is defense- but the Azeri Idp situation needs to be examined in correlation with sociocultural issues. Anyhow...
Regional Kinetics is very nice idea but its application in this article is not what I expected, given the well written article. Regional power dynamics is worth examining however, for example; Russian influence. The idea is dependency; Armenia relies on Russia Azerbaijan on Turkey; each with their own sets of relationships.
There is however, regional power dynamics, which is more covert.
Why would turkey want the border reopened? Here are my suggestions and I do think more extensive research should be done before opening the actual border.
-Oil pipelines (from the Caspian),
-Money, not "flooding the market place." But another consumer market that has some sophistication and attraction to Western Goods (possibly). Neoliberalism will DESTROY Armenia's people and organic business market; so tougher state policies should be considered for the welfare of Armenians and our businesses. (not socialism).
-E.U. prospects/make turkey look good blah blah, 'democratization,' etc.
-tourism?
-A corridor to push Kurds (or any ethnicity) into Armenia? Or open borders to allow warfare for the future?
-Turkish scholarly and intelligentsia appeal on a global scale
-University connections
-Turkey has vast amounts of land; I don't see any infrastructural development really happening right away- .
-We have to ask ourselves, not only what the benefit for Armenia is- but also the regional benefits for state governments (turkey in this case)
How does this help open border benefit Armenia?
-First, I think Turkish economic penetration will be limited considering Russia's influence in region. Supposedly, there are already turkish goods in Armenia- so don't know the correlation unless these companies develop in Armenia too.
-Business wise, the rich Armo's from Turkey can network and develop relations with the motherland.
-Armenia's committment to Turkey's border relations.- political sphere
-Oil tax revenues from pipeline development. (but have to be careful where the $$ goes!!)
-oil companies also employ many fields;
-exchange of academia
-appeal to the Karabakh issue?
-well, I can't think of many solutions. This is some sociocultural political significance. Could potentially disintegrate ethnic hatred for the future (maybe). It makes for an interesting case to really examine the benefits for Armenia right?
But like some posts I've seen on here, Armenia needs independent solutions to growing problems; especially Karabakh peace settlement. Why? Our people just need to be safe, live sustainability. Armenians don't care about all the crazy luxuries, we're all about our culture, people, identity, history, music, etc. . Keep things simple within the confines of "regional kinetics"
For example, since Armenia is landlocked it is dependent on other countries. Stronger investment in social capital creates long-term stability. Start with energy for example, Armenia needs to invest money in energy development; getting gas is a pain in the ass---and we're a pretty small country. Eco-friendly solutions should be on the table within the energineering community. Also, if the border is opened and there is oil pipeline/station development- the job rate will definitely grow; you need engineers, architects, planners, construction, etc. With the help of careful investment we can use Armenian arrchitects and engineers to design more culturally appealing and eco-friendly solutions that target the populations needs. We also need to build more sustainable buildings in the wake of devasting Earthquake in the 90's. We're in an area of high seimic activity. So even though Armenia has invested in $$ construction- redevelopment should be considered.
-Karabakh is such a fascinating issue- and it scares me to think Armenians are in a dangerzone. This region would be the real solution to regional kinetics---Because--- its development is dependent on us. Karabakh's development is in our hands- its terrain so unique to its current Armenian inhabitants. A peace settlement might push some more Armenians into this once thriving region; i.e. textiles, (rug-making in my interests), commodities (wood), and rock types (for home), mining (less intensive scale), wine (if im not mistaken), etc. It's tourism would be a benefit to local residences, embodying a rich cultural legacy (which needs to be settled with the azeris- their stuff is still in ruins). You get my point even though its romantic. Border settlement could also entice World Bank, IMF development (the good guys hopefully).
Work with what you got.
man, you can't call turkish people as terrorist. i disagree that.but i think turkish people are stuck between modernization which mean free ideas and its own glory.glory is important for a country and cultures but if it stupid and unnecessary, it's just stupid and harming people. i heard thousands of stupid ideas which are turkish people thinking about not only armenians, also other countries.turkish people are some kind of washed-brain. i highly appreciate that armenian people at least are not cursing my country's values and trying to change to regime of turkey. turkey's current prime minister cursed to my country on top of a bus when he was having election campaign, and people believed him. he tried to break the secularism of turkey.so i think armenian people are not dangerous for turkey at all. dangerous thing is the people who is trying to make us fight to each other.
i agree that armenian people are being underdog and turkey and i don't like that. they are suppose to say what they think if turkey wants to be free country. i think armenian people are scarifying turkey either. but eventualy you are telling the truth. yes, i am sure something happened in 1915, but i really want to be objective about it, and i also want armenian people to be objective. we are brothers, we came on these lands after but we are appropriated. i think one day turkey will accept this naturally. my opinion is extremly free. i want to talk to people who has free ideas like me. thanks...there are also many things to say. turkey is not terrorizing eurosia
Recep Tayyip Erdogan has to be truly stupid to make a comment like that, accusing China of genocide. I guess he thinks he is a humanitarian. Oh, the hypocrisy. Turkey, a country with so much blood in its hands; one which includes the Armenian Genocide, accusing China of genocide for killing some 150 people. Killing people is not right, even 150 or 1, so I am not protecting China. But Erdogans comments are just plain stupid. period.
Some questions:
What are the ARF's ideas on how to proceed with the Artsakh negotiations?
What are its plans to get RNK included in the OSCE talks.
How would the ARF's foreign policy differ from that of the current Armenian government?
Perhaps the ARF's members in the national legislature can provide the public with some ideas about how the ARF would do things differently were the Foreign Minister a Dashnak.
David Davidian:
Your opinions are strong as mine. Where is your analysis ? Let me guess if someone agrees with your insights then no analysis needed...if someone does not agree with your analysis they better come to the table with excel spreedsheets.
All the GDP's of countries in the region are down. Furthermore, I would guess ( and no I have not done an full analysis) that the war with Russia last year might have a slight effect on Georgia's economy... would effects of war on an economy be included in an economics 101 class? Is your Georgia example a sample of your analysis ? I know you want facts to fit your conculsions but give it another try.
Show me an example or as you would like to say analysis that closing borders between two countries is beneficial.
Do I think an open border with Turkey will solve all of armenia's problems. No. Not even close. Do I think demanding land from Turkey is going get us anywhere..No.
By the way, you mentioned earlier that if you didn't write this article I would have nothing to talk about. That is an extremely presumtious remark. I am not the one who is writing articles in the weekly and putting up websites. I am sure if someone commended your for laying down some sort of intellectual basis for great victories in the future you wouldn't disagree. Or perhaps you would politely disagree but be thrilled at the sentiment. So, you need to accept the reality that people, even people you deem intelliectually inferior to you, are going to think you are completely in your own world.
My address is to Sevan, the brave Armenian who lives in Istanbul. God bless you, how beautiful and to the point your comment is. The fact about Crypto Jews and their influence before and after the Armenian Genocide is not well published in books and articles. Although recently it is becoming more publicized, but it needs to be addressed more and studied more scientifically.
Being an Armenian American and a student of the history of the American Civil War, I found the article to be of keen interest.
I must, however, point out an error. Khachadour Garabedian, may have been the only Armenian Civil War veteran buried in America, but he was most certainly not the only Armenian to have served in the American Civil War.
There were at least two other Armenians who served in the Union Army during the Civil War.
These were Doctors Baronik Matteosian and Garabed Vartanian.
The 2002 Calendar published by Project Save and entitled "Armenians in the Military" contains a photograph of Dr. Garabed Vartanian in his Union Army uniform together with the following biographical information: "Dr. Garabed Vartanian of Constantinople graduated from Bellevue Hospital Medical School (now New York University College of Medicine) in 1863, and was soon an officer in the 18th Regular Infantry of the Army of Tennessee under Brigadier Geberal William Rosecrans. At the Battle of Chicamauga Creek (August 15 - September 12, 1863) Garabewd was taken prisoner. He survived, returned to Constantinople where he practiced medicine and died in 1905."
While we are on the subject of veterans and military matters, I believe that the Arstakh government needs to immediately send out a call for volunteers to form a diaspora military reserve force (an Armenian Foreign Legion of sorts)to train in Artsakh for two weeks a year and to serve as needed without pay. I would think that 10,000 volunteers would respond from California alone. This would definitely tip the balance of power in Artsakh and Armenia's favor not to mention provide a huge boost to the local economy.
To Haro: Armenians easily killed Mashdots with their own hands - and spit on his grave while doing nationalistic talk like you. Gomidas spoke Turkish as his first language, and though he did a great service to Armenians, Armenians made his work irrelevant by ignoring it. If you pity poor Armenians so much, get off the internet, get out of Yerevan and do something about it. As with Mashdots and Gomidas, you're using the names of other people (including all of the poor people of Armenia) and actually ignoring those people in the process.
It sounds ridiculous but the most of the people going into Armenia are Armenians born outside of that country.
he is totally stupid and the thing what i can't take that the people listen to him. he uses turkish people. wahtever, i disagree that you say turkey holds so much blood in its hand. because our politians definitely don't know how to make foreign relationship. turkey is suppose to open the doors to armenia and let us know each other more.do you know any idia how much stupid opinions i listened when i was in the college in turkey. turkish people blame israel and claim that israeli people are massacring palestinians, however, only israel was helping turkish military when they were clashing with pkk. that could call ungratefulness. uyghur turks killed han people. i am an objective person so i can say that but i really think those things are happening because of the behaviors of the chinese government. they are second class citizen in here. at least we don't do that in turkey. the problem in turkey is people can't think sophisticated, that's why armenian turkish citizens are just getting shut their mouth by the people. but police can't do anything to you if you say you hate turkey in public. that's legal in turkey but in china they will accuse you as betrayer and maybe they will execute you.
in turkey, we at least can say that we don't like this prime minister and we have supreme court that we still think it will protect the country's secularism and third-rate democracy and freedom.
thanks.. please let me know your opinions more .
try to avoid of scarifying.
i also write my emailling address at the first comment of mine.
Erdoghan dezired to show that Turkey is the FATHER of all muslims...and care about all turks :(
Erdoghan and Turkey have no moral right to talk about Genocide committed by other countries until they recognize their own committed ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!
Root:
You wrote: "Show me an example or as you would like to say analysis that closing borders between two countries is beneficial." I am not making an argument for keeping the Armenian border closed. However, you can conclude that I am suggesting keeping it closed because no rational argument exists for opening it. I am asking those who claim any good can come from such border opening to provide analysis for such a claim, not wishful thinking.
You wrote: "Is your Georgia example a sample of your analysis ?" No, it's not sample analysis. It's a question that those who want an open Armenian-Turkish border need to answer. Having an open border particularly with Turkey apparently hasn't helped Georgia, even in light of a Russian blockade and world-wide recession. Why this is and what conclusions can be drawn from it must be established.
You wrote: "By the way, you mentioned earlier that if you didn’t write this article I would have nothing to talk about. That is an extremely presumtious remark." I have never seen anything authored by RootArm in opposition to land reparation or in opposition to preparting for dynamic geopolitical change. This means that an effort was put forth in active affirmation and you are simply in reactive opposition.
Our discussion has become meaningless. Feel free to have the last word
Thank you for the very interesting historical details and a huge congralulation for initiating the idea of a volunteer corp, ready to intervene if necessary, for Artsakh. As you are saying Armenian Realist, it will tip the balance, and with more and more joining the corp, Artsakh enemies will not dare attack.
Good editorial.
To Rootarmo:
Repeating a true statement pertaining to a totally different case (Franco-German) or a general statement about closing borders adversely affecting trade may sound reasonable to you but it doesn't help explain our particular case or it doesn't provide an automatic example of conflict resolution. Everybody (I believe including you) agrees there is no serious and detailed study to prove or disprove the benefits of the open border. So, what is the sense in repeating "no, you prove that border opening harms Armenia"?
I believe if people look at the Regional kinetics proposal for what it is what it isn't, they'll soon or later will see it isn't for victories, pound of flesh to be ripped away from Turkey, proof of intellectual superiority, etc. We know that a number of other Armenian individuals (a couple of whose articles were posted above) also think that an access to the Black Sea is crucial to Armenia's survival. To me, this proposal is trying to make the Armenian individual think about what is best for the survivability of Armenia. It has no outlandish claims that it can be achieved easily, soon, or under all circumstances. It is challenging people to debate it, add to it, come up with your own improved one, or completely debunk it. However, what the proposal isn't inviting people to do is dismissing altogether because it is difficult to achieve given the current equilibrium of forces, because of it generality, or because of it doesn’t contain things you may or may not wish to see.
Your continued references to “winners and losers”, "your proposal versus mine", other Armenians' "provincialisms" etc. is making me and possibly others think that this is the window through which you are viewing your interactions here and possibly this is what's really important to you. I am not sure if you honestly think these distractions help in any way to the discussion. What happens next when you get to say the last word, say just anything and rebut everybody, what's next?
it's the bitter reality.The same was done to the Greeks,they were also a brilliant community.Today there are only 2000 Greeks left in Turkey.Armenians and Greeks were older ennemies for the Jews than the Arabs or Persians.Armenians and the Greeks were in constant rivalry against the Jews for the High positions in the Ottoman Empire.Armenians were only 10% in the city of İzmir but they were controlling 80% of the city's commerce.They were the biggest exporters in that city.They were even more brilliant than the Greeks.The Turks who are not ignorant on this issue and it's really hard to find them are surprised when they learn these facts and asking how could it be possible that the Empire liquidated its most sophisticated population?Well the answer is very easy.Sultan Mahmut II who can be called as the Peter the Great of the Ottoman Empire was financed by Armenian Bankers.As a reformator he saw that the Janissary Army was no longer in capacity to defend the Empire against modern standing armies.He treid to abolish it.Jewish bankers like Isaya Aciman or Behor Çelebi Carmona resisted against the Sultan's decision because they were using the Janissaries to collect their money lendings.It was a kind of mafia during that period.The Sultan had enough of these people.The Janissary Order was abolished and the Jewish Bankers were hanged including Behor Çelebi Carmona who was a high figure in the Jewish community and the one of the most richest men in the Empire.Well the Jews never forgot this action.Still today in Turkey Jews commemorate the killing of Behor Carmona with a ceremony.After the elimination of Jewish Power the Armenians became the Kings of the Kings in the Empire until the Young Turk rule.Theodor Herzl writes in his memoirs that after the refusal by Sultan Abdülhamit to sell Palestine to the Jews,he contacted the Young Turks who were in exile in European cities like Paris.Another 'coincidence' is that the Young Turk newspaper was published by a famous Zionizt figure Wladimir Jabotinsky.Emmanuel Carasso, another jewish figure who helped the Young Turks to get international assistance can also be called as a 'coincidence'.Dear friends Armenians have mostly Armenian names.I live in Turkey and my name is Sevan.But the Jews even those who are not secret Jews like Mr.Bali have muslim names like Rıfat or Kemal or Selim.The jew takes the name Nicolas in France like Nicolas Sarkozy(his mother was a Salonican Jewess member of the Mazliyah family).In Russia the Jew takes the name Vladimir like Lenin or Oligarch Gussinski.In Austria his name would be Bruno like Bruno Kreisky.In America he would be named Richard like Holbrooke and this goes on and on.If the Jew feels embarrassed by the overwhelming majority,he would convert to Islam or Christianity and remain Jewish in the bottom of his heart.The Armenian character is different,he would die but rare are those who change their religion even for hiding he would never deny his faith.Well it's a good thing but it's false if your life is in danger than you must convert for a while than after gaining security you can easily reconvert to Christianity.That was one of our biggest mistakes.The Jews learned this science in their thousands years of Diasporan Life.I hope that my writings were instructive.God bless you Varoujan and Dear Armenian Compatriots.Don't forget 'One Nation,One Culture'.Armenians are still alive on every corner of the Planet and we reestablished our Homeland and Artsakh is free.Go and visit these places you will be proud.I have a Chechen friend and he confessed me that he admires our nation.Today we have more than my Chechen friend's best dreams.Never forget this fact.
it's not about that.you guys don't really understand our situation.look, even if i accept that happened and i say that to my friends in turkey, i will just get stone by they and they will blame what kind of turkish i am.i was always blamed because of my objectiveness.also even if i believe that armenian people are dangerous and enemy of my country, they are not more dangerous than this government which describe itself representative of turkey. as i said armenian turkish citizens are not second-class citizen in turkey that means there is still hope. there is no any party who will accept the genocide then will be government.democracy in turkey is comlicated. i want to accept at least something happened in 1915 but i am just getting blame by other turkish people. i am turkish but i am kind of ready to accept that. this subject should be opened for researching.
best,
emrah tuncer
It's time for the htobed of hypocrites in Ankara to press the reset button on genocide denial.
Hello,
Armenian hockey player Narek 7 years old look his talent it is spatial you can enjoy video srchin in YouTube Hockey Narek Aleksanyan.
Thank you
Hi bedo it's Raffi Gacia's brother, nice article, goodluck with your job.
you don't understand my friend. i agree that it's time to push the button for it. but i am telling you, it won't be so good for armenians minority in turkey. wait, first of all we have to change that crap government and learn how to make foreign relationship objectively. this event will be accepted naturally after,
best,
Dear Sevan, it's unbelievable that such racist words appear in Armenian Weekly. I am too from Turkey, an ethnic Turk (well, not a crypto Jew or Sabbetean!), who firmly believe that Turkey should recognise the Armenian genocide and who is a loyal reader of Armenian Weekly. I am shocked to read your message. How can anyone derive such feelings and thoughts from Gunaysu's article? Either you read only the title and not the article itself, or your hatred of Jews is so strong that you couldn't understand what you read. It's very sad to see that nobody objected your hateful words about Jews. Isn't there somebody to say no to such openly racist words?
Hye, and President Obama shall not/ will not await April 24, 2010.... I believe he is fully aware of the Turkish leaderships 'use' of a President of the United States of America. I believe President Obama will step up, morally, without fear of intimidation , to speak the words to acknowledge the Genocide of the Armenian nation by the Ottoman Turks together with their subsequent Turkish leaderships for their years of their dishonest denials of the Armenian Genocide (based upon the American archives in Washington D.C.). the United States of America (including 42 of its 50 states) 20 civilized nations of the world, the International Genocide organizations, as well as all the archives of many nations - world over - recognized a Genocide where 2,000,000 ethnic citizens of a nation is terrorized, slaughtered, burned, drowned, raped, to be survivors fleeing their homelands of nearly 4,000 years - unquestionably, a Genocide. A word, which encompasses the loss of millions of innocent lives within a century, Darfur, still, today. Who/where, next?
Yet the use of the word Genocide is forbidden by the Turkish leaders. THEY have spoken...
Taking into consideration of the treatment of their own citizens, i.e. writers, journalists, religious clerics slain, Hrant Dink, Armenians, Jews, and more treated as non-citizens, the Turkish governments of today, supposedly democracies, have yet to prove their moral strengths to lead their own Turkish citizens away from the mode of their Ottoman history. Speaking of history, the Turks have not any history other than the fact that they were warriors - hordes - who came down out of the Asian mountains to prey upon cultured societies, taking the civilized Christian Armenians nation to become the Turkish nation, taking the Armenian civilized culture and naming all as Turkish; whether foods, arts/craft, architecture and more, claiming these as Turkish. Evidently, they had not such culture of their own. Sadly, Armenian Christian churches became stables. Still showed their Armenianess in many ways.
Yet, when a Turkey has named Israel and China guilty of Genocide... Manooshag
Sevan:
You wrote:
As an Armenian of Istanbul I know very well the role of Jewish Organizations in blockading the Armenian Genocide Resolution in the American Congress.
How does you living in Istanbul make you have better insight into what is going in halls of Congress ?
Sevan, you have a lot of time on your hands, stop thinking about the Jews. Your not brave for living in Turkey, it just happens to be where you live. Furthermore your obsessed with issues that are beyond your intellectual ability. Go read a few books.
Whether or not he was the ONLY Armenian-American to fight in the civil war, he was burried here in the USA. That in and of itself is worth more than the 10K that is required to properly mark this historical fact - a remarkable one at that. If there is a grave in Istanbul for Dr. Vartanian, I doubt it mentions his tenure in the US Civil War and if it does, believe that there is a Turk out there who will destroy it. If we follow your logic Kamer, should we stop trying to pass an Armenian Genocide Resolution in the USA and send all those funds over to Armenia/Artsakh only to be used for mansions in Beverly Hills?
In the volumes of Diasporan wealth, preserving and appropriately marking the grave of an/the Armenian-American Civil War soldier is a drop in the bucket and more importantly is vital to the history of USA, Armenian history and the universal quest for truth, justice and democracy no matter what background you are from.
It is shameful, at best, that you not only object to this project but urge others to withdraw their funding and support. The PAAVA and all its members are supported by more than the few ignorant Kamer's who obviously have no respect for history. Armenians, not just Armenian-Americans, should support PAAVA and this project in particular and I believe overall that we do. As a descendant of Armenian-American Veterans, it is critical, to many Armenian initiatives, that Khatchadour's grave be properly marked so that everyone who visits can bear witness to the sacrifice that Armenians have made to the establishment of the United States of America.
Why Elif hanim you look too upset about Sevan's article? There is a part of reality in the writings of Mr.Sevan after all the minister of finance of Young-Turk governement was also of Jewish origin mr,Cavid who has been hanged 1926 by Mustafa Kemal-accused of comploting against him.The Armenians are the first to honnor all those Jews who defended Armenians with great humanity like Henry MORGENTAU,Franz Welfer and others and nowdays Hair ORON,Israel Charny;but let us to hate all those jews who complote on our back by defending a genocidal country like Turkey
What about Mr. Five Percent ; Was he a Jew or a Turk who changed his name to Armenian?
Sweeet! Marriott is global so that means ALOT of recycling! I checked them out on www.EnvironmentallyFriendlyHotels.com and they have some awesome green initiatives! Thanks for the heads up, I prefer to stay in a place that making a global impact!
Restitution eh....? like cash? I'm up for that, otherise what's the point?
It's time to move on. It's been time to move on for a long time now.
Very sad to read Sevan's comments in Armenian Weekly. They are not only factually incorrect, but send the kind of message that I believe only very few readers of AW would share or support.
Dear Sevan, I have no idea why we Armenians should argue for Jews...Jews are well aware of Armenian Genocide..there is no doubt in my mind… unfortunately there are some selfish Jews in this world, where they think they were the only ones in a dark chimney and nobody else suffered the way Jews suffered ... I have a Jewish friend, and he strongly agree with me…….
I bow for Araz and for her holly work. I would like to be on her mailing list for contribution in her future projects.
Armenia Live For Ever!
Shnorhakalutyun ANCA in ir hayrenanver gortseri hamar:
Lav kliner vor unenayiq havaqakan mtqi xumb:
Es im MITQ lragir# ev "AREVI ERG#" girq# kugarkem ete haytneq posti hascen:
Aranc havaqakan mtqi u srti xosqi azg chka:
Uraxutyun Dzez, hajogutyun amen gortsum:
Aremenians were victorius of war. Turk were the agressor. Turks were the one who requested for ceasefire agreement. Therefore, Armenians must be the one to set the terms of anykind of peace treaty. Armenians must demand the return of Wester Armenia in order to continue as a viable state and not to cause insecurity in the region. Unless and until Armenia does not become a selfsufficient state, she wil continue create insecurity for all.
EU, US, and Turks beware!
There will be no freedom for the people unless physicians are free to treat patients according to
their ability and competence. There will be no freedom for physicians unless the people are free.
Obama is a Marxist and racist.
I agree with every word of the Mensoian's article. It should be 'must read' for every Armenian parliamentary, diplomatic and military leader, from Serge Sergsian down.
In the past millennium Armenia has shrunk from 300,000 sq. kms to 30,000 kms. Most recently, Stalin sliced two provinces (Nakhichevan and Artsakh) from Armenia. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, we managed to take back Artsakh through guts and brains. We have given up on Nakhichevan since the Azeris emptied that province of Armenians. We shouldn't give up Artsakh for all the reasons Mansoian's article cites.
Betty that was a Great Article. (as always, you hit the nail on the head)
We too enjoy going and Eating Virg & Familys Yummy Cooking when we get the chance.
Betty, your article's are so enjoyable and informative to read.
Thanks for doing such a Great Job for the Armenian Community here in the Detroit Metro Area
Karabakh and territory inside the security belt of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic should never go back to Azerbaijan…Dictator Aliev is playing a political game with Armenians…this newly crowned lifetime president of Azerbaijan, does not need lands back to his territories, those so called “occupied lands” that he always dreamt about it, is an obstacle for his strengths and marks his power over his sheikdom.
Armenia has two choices:
1) To get rid of sheikh Aliev, Armenia must recognize Artsakh as a free republic.
2) If Armenia wants to keep Aliev as president of Azerbaijan, then they must continue and play his political games, such as meetings, OSCE monitoring, Moscow seminars and … until Armenians end up a civil war over Artsakh, and finally Mr. Aliev hopes to win the war, politically, while he is in the office..
To the likes of Allyev, in Brooklyn they say "go fly a kite." We are fools if we give credence to what he says, or doesn't say. Artsakh is a part of Armenia. If he doesn't like it he can either go fly a kite, or he can try to take it back. I am 82, but he'll be facing me up front. And if he doesn't wat5ch out, we'll take Naxijevan also. And Ararat, and Kars and Ardahan, and Trabizond, and Adana also. Hey, Armenian Weekly, don't be so WEAKLY, don't be on the defensive, don't be naive, don't be apologetic in your articles; what would our youngsters learn from you? Talk tough, and if you can't, then shut up!
Is Serge Sergsian the best we can do? With all the brilliant, shrewd minds we Armenians have the best we can do is a corrupt, stumbling guy like Sargisian? Please someone correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the Azeris loose the war? Why do we need to give anything back? A third grader can conclude that a renewed war would only mean no further investments of the billions from the oil trade to Azerbajan as well. Sure, war would hurt the Armenian Nation and no one wants that but it would be political and economic suicide for them as well. Also please tell me in the 500 years of brutal turkish occupation when where they Turks ever cordial, giving, polite, honest, fair? NEVER! What makes anyone think this will change now? WE ARMENIANS, ONCE AND FOR ALL, NEED TO STICK TOGETHER, UNITED IN ONE CAUSE AND STOP PANDERING TO EVERONE ELSE INCLUDING THE AMERICANS, EUROPEANS AND RUSSIANS!
Dear Bedo:
I was forwarded the Armenian Weekly link by a relative in New York (from the Tehlirian lineage). I was astonished at your article. Bravo! My mother is a Der Ghazarian. From your article, Rostom is my mother's cousin. A year ago, I found his sister who lives in Valjevo and also contacted Soghomon's son Vasken who is in Serbia. I grew up with pictures and stories about them. I would like to receive more information about your visit.
I visited Kemah's Vari Pakarij village near Erzngan in April 2006 where Der Ghazarians and Tehlirian's were born. Through the family tree, we found that the Der Ghazarian's and Tehlirian's were really the same blood family who took on different last names due to destiny like reason's. I saw the remains of the Armenian Church, came home with soil and have since kept touch with one of Soghomon's sons Zaven who lives in California. I will be happy if you can contact me so that we can complete this beautiful journey you have been on.
Shad Shnorhagal Em,
AA Sarchisian
Serge Sargsyan is just as Armenian as we are and is from Artsakh. He would never give up Artsakh. Yes, he has made diplomatic mistakes, but I think he now realizes that and will change his strategy. Quit bringing the ARF into everything. The people of Armenia and Artsakh can handle themselves just fine without the ARF - they have done so for thousands of years before the ARF and did so during 70 years of Communism.
Minchev aysor sireli paregamner, asonk ashgharen ge bardatren erentz eravoonke. Ov DER mer kaghoote inch gesbase?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/world/europe/02restore.html?_r=1&hpw
August 2, 2009
Hurdles in Eastern Europe Thwart Restitution Claims
By DAN BILEFSKY
PRAGUE — Seventy years have passed since members of the Thorsch family fled German-occupied Czech lands in 1939. They left behind a lucrative oil refinery business that was seized by the Nazis, nationalized after World War II and then taken over by the Communist government.
Marie Warburg — granddaughter of Alfons and Marie Thorsch, who owned the Privoz refinery and escaped the Holocaust by emigrating to Canada — laments that her family has received no compensation for its loss. She says the Thorsches are blocked by a law under which only Czech citizens can qualify for restitution of businesses or homes.
Twenty years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, restitution experts say the countries of Eastern and Central Europe are still lagging in compensating for private property seized during the Holocaust. For example, Poland, home to the largest prewar Jewish population in Europe, has not enforced legislation on private property restitution, fearful that it would prompt tens of thousands of claims.
Efforts at restitution in other countries, like the Czech Republic, remain hampered by the reluctance of governments to relax requirements the way Germany has in an effort to remove daunting or unfair legal obstacles.
“Providing proof of citizenship is a problem for the heirs of Holocaust victims, whose families were expelled or fled from Czechoslovakia or ended up in a chimney at Auschwitz,” said Ms. Warburg, an American citizen who lives in Berlin and whose German-born father was a member of the Warburg banking dynasty.
Czech officials declined to comment on the specifics of Ms. Warburg’s case. Jiri Cistecky, a senior official at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, noted that in the last 20 years alone, the Czech Republic distributed roughly $185 million to Nazi victims, including money to care for elderly Holocaust survivors. Still, Mr. Cistecky acknowledged that Czech laws could complicate restitution efforts in some cases.
As part of an effort to improve the system, the Czech Republic held a conference in late June in Prague in which 46 countries backed the formation of an institute in a former Nazi camp, Terezin, aimed at tracking the return of Jewish property stolen by the Nazis. While the conference ended with a declaration calling for restitution, Holocaust education and improved provenance research, critics complained that it had no legal enforcement mechanism to prod recalcitrant nations to take action.
A number of Western European countries, led by Germany, carried out far-reaching measures to provide restitution of Nazi-looted properties in the aftermath of World War II, including setting up commissions to deal with heirless property and communal property illegally seized during the war. But similar efforts were stymied in Eastern Europe, where, by the end of the 1940s, the very basis of property ownership had been supplanted by socialist ideology and the nationalization efforts of Communist regimes.
Even after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, restitution experts say, establishing moral and legal certainties of claims has proved elusive in a region where not only citizens but also governments view themselves as victims of Nazism and Communism.
“They say, ‘Let the Germans or Austrians do it, they were the bad guys,’ ” said Stuart E. Eizenstat, who was deputy treasury secretary under President Bill Clinton and has led the international restitution drive. “It is hard to create the political will for restitution to take place.”
Another major hurdle, many experts say, is a visceral fear among governments that citizens who had nothing to do with past crimes will be thrust out of homes or businesses or face financial liabilities for properties they acquired legally. Some countries are loath to part with artistic treasures said to have been looted by the Nazis that were long ago incorporated into national museums.
Michal Klepetar, the great-nephew of Richard Popper, a Czech who was killed in the Holocaust, said that a few years ago he learned that several pieces of his great-uncle’s old masters art collection were in the hands of the National Gallery in Prague. But according to the Holocaust Act of 2000, he does not qualify for restitution, because he is not a direct heir, even though Mr. Popper’s wife and daughter were also killed by the Nazis. His disqualification, Mr. Klepetar asserted, conflicts with Czech inheritance law, which allows nephews and nieces to claim property. The National Gallery declined to comment.
Ms. Warburg said her efforts were a matter of principle as well as a responsibility toward her mother’s family, the Thorsches, who have roots in the Czech Republic dating from the 16th century, when family lore suggests that they emigrated to Prague from Toledo, Spain, during the Inquisition.
In the 1880s, the Thorsch family provided financing for the establishment of Privoz, the refinery eventually bought out by her grandfather, Alfons Thorsch. The family had moved to Vienna from Prague in the 1870s, when Jews were being persecuted, and became prominent bankers.
By the 1930s, Privoz had 10 percent of the Czech energy market and owned 202 rail cars to export oil.
One month before Austria was incorporated into Nazi Germany in March 1938, Alfons Thorsch, his wife and one of their five daughters, Marie’s mother, fled from Vienna to Canada. Her uncle, a Czechoslovak who was living in Prague and had been director of Privoz, fled Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia one year later.
Within weeks of her family’s escape, Ms. Warburg said, the oil refinery in Moravia — a region east of Prague with important industries — was occupied by the Nazis, who fired all of its directors, some of whom ended up in concentration camps. The Nazis then invested tens of millions of dollars in refurbishing the plant to help fuel the German war effort.
When World War II ended, Ms. Warburg said, the refinery was nationalized under the Czechoslovak government of President Eduard Benes.
Ms. Warburg said the family’s efforts to gain restitution during the Communist era had proved fruitless because the state was ideologically opposed to private property. In the early 1990s, after the fall of Communism, the Czech Republic established restitution laws that required those seeking compensation for homes or businesses to be citizens of the Czech Republic, effectively pre-empting Ms. Warburg from making any legal claim.
Legal experts say she could file a case in a Czech court under the so-called Benes Decrees of 1945, which are still legally valid and stipulate that those whose property was nationalized by the state and were victims of National Socialism should receive compensation.
Yet experts say the Czech government has thus far proved ill disposed to enforce the decrees for fear of unleashing a torrent of claims from Sudeten Germans, millions of whom were driven from their homes in Czechoslovakia after the war.
Great article
I was moved to the core
We will protect all current parts of Armenia including Artsakh province which includes Tikranakert from foreigners and those in Armenia bought out by foreigners. Shahumian, Martakert, Martuni and Naxijevan will be freed soon. No politician paid by US or Russia or anyone else owns Artsakh. It is first the people of Artsakh who own Artsakh. Then the rest of the Armenian people in other provinces and countries. No single person or organization can "sell" our province and our history.
Dear Mr. Vartabedian,
I applaud you for having the desire to reach out to remote areas of Armenia, away from the touristy parts.
I share your experience, and re-lived my Armenia trips through your words; though I spent little time in the country side. Before I visited Armenia 3 years ago, for the first time, I declined the option of going to Armenia and opted in for European countries where I would gain more understanding of their land and culture. However, I came across the opportunity to go to Armenia, and saying to myself that every Armenian should visit his/her motherland at least once, I traveled to Yerevan, with reservations.
Since then, I have been back again and have taken time off from work in the US to support a non-profit organization, for over a month. The more I go to Armenia, the more I find that I want o be there and experience it more. There is something about that land that calls me back, and I remember my time in Yerevan, very fondly. After living there for 5 weeks in a rented apartment, I felt to have become one of the locals, and began feeling life the way it is vs. being a tourist. I dealt with water and power issues, shopping and food, to say the least.
I came back with a lot more appreciation for life and for what I have. I am a more conscious person towards different aspects of life, all because of my time in Armenia.
Your questions are very valid, and I contemplated some of them myself. Though, one thing that I realized with the locals was that they were happy with what they had. To them, what mattered was to be together with family, have a simple meal and have a good time. That was the biggest lesson of my life. Sometimes, we get wound up in the luxuries of life in the Western world; we work more, forget our families and ourselves, so we can reach our goal of become rich or richer. Sometimes, we confuse our priorities.
I wish the experience of being a true Armenian upon every Armenian, at least once. It is addictive!
Hi Tamar,
Always a pleasure to see and be with you. It was terrific of you to write an article about the Mid-West Jr Olympics, I'm sure you made the juniors feel very special with your thoughtful words. You have been a wonderful senior role model, many thanks to you for all that you are doing and have done in the past for the AYFYOARF.
Armenians should never ever surrender the lands surrounding Artsakh Proper. If the G8 or UN or any country calls these lands as occupied territories, then we should counter them by asking for the return of our territories that are currently occupied by Turkey (Western Armenia) and Azerbaijan (Nakhichevan).
Well said Leo.. I agree with you 100%..
I got chills when I read the article.. I hope to God that one day we will get what belongs to us and no government straight or faulty can take that away from us.
God Bless Armenia and its people..
G
Mr Vardanian,
Thank you for making us, the reader to live and feel what you lived and saw when you visited our motherland.. You touch on points that are very valid...
Talin,
I agree with you 100%. We, who live in the United States, forget what is important. All our time is spent worrying, stressing and thinking about how to make more money to be at a better place. We forget that family and togetherness is the most important factor in life. This is what our people in Armenia truly represent. They are satisfied with the little they have.. they only need the most essentials things...This is the reason I did not want to come back to US.. I visited in 2000 and stayed close to three months.. It was very very hard to return when you felt, tasted, and saw the life that one could have on their motherland.. all it takes is to have a stable job...
I pray to God that one day our government will realize how negligently they have been treating Armenia.. what treasure they possess.. Without a home, we are nobody. Without a land, we are lost souls... That is why for centuries, we have been fighting to keep the little land that we call our home.. That is why need a strong, intelligent and dedicated government. Once we have that plus a united Armenians, we will have our homeland for generations after generations..
God Bless Armenia and its people..
G
Apo,
Just by reading your article, my eyes swelled up with tears.I very much agree with your description of a mountain that no one truly knows about.. Ararat is the King amongst Kings of Mountains.. However, no one knows that we have another beauty waiting to be discovered and claimed to be as mighty..
The way you described your experience makes me want to get up and go to Armenia, our motherland.. Being away for 10 years truly makes me miss my country... The wind, the smell, the feel, the look, the existance of a country that no other county can come close... Why? Your home where your heart is. Your home is the sweetest place on the planet..and ARmenia is that home. Armenia is our home...
God Bless Armenia and its people..
G
Wow! Your article is...impressive! Moving, even...
Just one comment/addition...i would like to add to the list of "less scenic best friend" also ALL the mountains from Artsakh...they are...i can find no words to describe them!
APO jan
very nice article we from jerusalem support you ,we all feel the same thing
am happy you are discovering your land ,the land that is gifted to the armenians .keep doing the best and always bring us good news .
p.s u shouldnt be scared of mice heeehehhe
take care
Thank you for the comments...and yes the Kharabagh mountains are beautiful and amazing.
cheers
Jews are great people they ressurected their ancient homeland and Israel is a mini-America in the desert of the Middle East.At lokk at the Armenians we have billionaires all around the world including in Turkey and we can't use this potential for our tiny Armenia.Only a few idealists spent their finances to help our Motherland.The A
The Armenian Diaspora is too focused on the 1915 Genocide issue.I am not saying that this struggle is wrong but without a strong Armenia we will reexperience the same tragedies and the time has come to do something.Every Armenian should visit Armenia and help it wherever he/she can.I live in Istanbul I visited it twice.I will also visit Armenia this autumn.
Give some of Armenia's so-called "leaders" enough money under the table, and they'll sell out Artsakh in a minute. The US and Russia have more than enough money to do it. Come to think of it, I wonder if, when Armenia's leaders were negotiating with Turkey in Switzerland on a "roadmap" to set up a historical commission to determine whether a genocide occurred (and if so, which nation was the victim), they also checked on their Swiss bank accounts.
This article is very interesting but it would be greatly improved if maps were included.
Lalai,
I love your writing style.
That said, I too practice the national sport of spoting IANs while the credits roll at the end of a French or Foreign film (not particularly interested in Hollywood movies). How great is the tingle when we notice more than ONE -IAN?
My family also has many property deeds ( thousands and thousands of acres) from occupied Armenia: Hadjin and Adana. We should start documenting these or establishing a repository, as a definitive proof of our possessions. Then we can challenge Turkey in international courts to either restitute these properties or swap them with land adjacent to present Armenia. Unfortunately I have heard many people say that they had land deeds which they lost. Also there was a time ( in Lebanon in the 1960s) when some people sold their deeds to the Turkish government in the belief that we will never have another chance of reclaiming our homeland..
Very well-expressed, Lalai. I can only add that I somehow don't remember when and how I even started seeking "-ian"s and "-yan"s during end credits. It wasn't like someone told me to do so... Could it be some sort of strange instinct, automatically adapted by the time moving pictures came out?
I remember watching an Armenian film some years ago, and noticing that, at the end of that one, ALL the names ended in "-ian"/"-yan"!
Spotting -ians is a national sport at least for those of us who still have an affinity for anything armenian. I think this will become rarer in the future with subsequent generations. It's not easy to be optimistic about the fate of our people.
Once again it shows that Turkish diplomacy is strong compared to Armenian one?!
Hey, I do the same thing! I read all the names on movie credits and when I find an Armenian name, I read it loud enough for everyone nearby to hear. I also read telephone directories wherever I travel. And scan lists of names, anywhere. Years ago, I found a relative in Armenia by scanning a list of names in the Armenian International e-mail directory. Maybe it's a type of Diaspora disease/separation syndrome.
Sevan,
You seem knowledgable in recent Turkish history, however your rhetoric is reminiscent of the polished Islamic fundamentalists who seek to drive a wedge between Jews and Armenians, accusing the former of using the Comittee of Union and Progress to wipe out the commercial competition of the latter. This is sophisticated BLACK PROPAGANDA and an ugly lie !
You should refrain from disseminating that disinformation.
Secondly, inspite the fact that you write under an Armenian name (Sevan) nothing proves that you are indeed an Armenian. I invite you to disclose your full name so that anyone interested could check whether you are a real Armenian or an impostor !
Denis
Don't Give Back What Rightfully Belongs to Artsakh:
My understanding is that during the Soviet period Russia allowed Azerbaijan to take parts of what was then Artsakh/Karabagh and incorporate them into Azerbaijan itself. Thus, the Artsakh that Armenians have today, through their bravery, does not include all the territory that it should. I assume that at least some of those stolen lands are now part of the so-called "occupied territories" that are just outside Artsakh and which, in part or in whole, may be "returned" to Azerbaijan as part of a so-called "peace" agreement. (I think a better word for such a "peace" agreement might be "pees" agreement. "Pees" is the Turkish word for "dirty.")
If this is the case, then Armenians are taking the wrong approach. At least some of the "occupied territories" are really part of Artsakh and should never be returned.
Have Artsakh and Armenia explained this to the OSCE and, publicly, to the world? I don't think so. Armenians have many good arguments that could be used publicly but aren't. Armenia seems stuck in the doldrums of the Soviet era when it comes to public relations.
Any plan less than free Kurdistan in the region will be temporary solution to the Kurdish Question. However, one should not forget Turkish cheap talk strategy.
Okay let me get this straight.
ANCA/ARF was against the inital "roadmap." Then Turkey revised the inital "roadmap" to a new roadmap..that we didn't like even more. (This roadmap is the reasoned ARF resigned from the government). But now ANC is supporting a letter "slaming" the revised roadmap. Thus this mean ANC actually likes the inital roadmap now ? Because if they "commending" the congressman for this letter in effect that is what they are doing.
Denis...with a name like yours you should hardly be accusing others of not being armenian.
Dear Rootarmo,
Mine is a Jewish name What's wrong with it?
Besides, I don't have the habit of hiding my identity. I always sign my pieces with my real name and and surname.
Do I have to be Armenian in order to be accredited to emit a reserve?
The canard that Jews are behind the Armenian genocide is an Antisemitic one, invented by Muslim fundamentalists seeking to involve Jews in the Turkish-Armenian contentious.
Some Turks who wish to reconcile with Armenians and some Armenians who wish to reconcile with the Turks for whatever reason, propagate that canard so that the blame is shifted on Jews !
Each of these parties have their own motivation:
1- The Fundamentalist religious Turks, wish to discredit the actual Republic of Turkey by discrediting its predecessor, The Committe of Union and Progress, whose ruling elite, except its leaders, was coopted by the Republican regime. The easiest way to do this is to accuse the the CUP members of being Jews or Crypto-Jews. Thogh there were some influential Jews in the CUP movement, these were not involved in the Armenian issue. I invite those who try to impute such a crime on Jews to provide evidencing documents to that effect.
2- The Armenians who wish to find a short-cut exit from the stalemate in the political process, have all the interest to split the Turkish public opinion by inducing it to repudiate the CUP and its residues in the Kemalist Turkish Republic. In this respect they find the approach adopted by Islamist fundamentalists as explained above quite convenient. However, for "practical" reasons they refrain from adopting that position regarding the Jews' responsibilities in the Armenian Genocide officially and publicly.
On the other hand, the Armenian establishment makes no move to belie or condemn the propagation of this Antisemitic canard. They should do so ! The sooner the better !
That is the sad truth.
Denis
p.s. I still have doubts on Sevan's real identity. Why doesn't he speak out loud and clear?
Sibel Edmonds doesn't seem to understand Turkey or its many diversified peoples.
It is well known that the Drugs coming out of Afghanistan etc ... are being transported and sold throughout Europe by the PKK (Kurdish Terrorists)
The Turks are powerless to stop or detain them because when they are cought they have been claiming that they have been persecuted or cohered into their statements, which suits certain countries whom refuse to give up known terrorists
As for gag orders ... tell me when was the last time any paper wrote about atrocities being committed by their governments or soldiers ... you dont have to look to far back only IRAQ !!!
Hye, wake up world... Turkey has been committing the second (2nd) Genocide of the 20th century and now into the 21st century.By labeling the Kurds as 'terrorists' (Turks' thinking) this allows them to eliminate the Kurds (who are really freedom fighters against tyranny of the Ottoman Genocide mentality) even now into the subsequent Turkish 'democratic' governments! Turkey lies to their own society as well in its vile treatment of its own citizens. Turkey promises Armenia-then reneges- the world is watches - what is Turkey's next ploy?
And, Turkey is known the world over as a nation which signs agreements but then.... whoops, doesn't abide by any. Turkey is, as an emperor in the children's well known fairy tale of THE EMPEROR'S CLOTHES, (clothing which did not exist) but the emperor insisted, yes insisted, he was wearing his new clothes - whilst he was not clothed... Yet, Turkey's 'democracy' is claimed today by a Turkey - but in a Turkey democracy just ain't there... is it? Yet, the U.S. leadership, State Department leading the parade, insists Turkey is a democracy -
Turkey has not been able to become a 'democracy' - in nearly one hundred years (to date). Howsomever, when the Armenian nation was formed for the mere two years (1918-1920) Armenian patriots lead the nation, reeling from the Turkish Genocide, yet in those two years had established their university. Now that's what I call exemplary leadership - exemplary patriots whose love of country to be an example, today. Manooshag
To Denis, (Addressing your call for Armenian support against Antisemitism)
You have your facts straight, and have a knowledgeable understanding of the situation on the Democratic front. But understand that Armenia has no reason to support any facet of Israel, or negative propaganda towards Israel because of the simple fact that Israel is not in support of the Armenian Genocide recognition. In fact, Israel has allied itself with Azerbaijan in support of reclaiming lands (Nagarno-Karabagh) falsely, and illegally handed over to the Azei regime.
Both ourt people have faced horrors. What the Jewish community doesn't understand ( a majority, we still have Jewish supporters) is that by the Turkish government, being able to get away with the massacre of 1.5 million people, opened the doors to Hitler and his Holocaust of the Jews. Were the Armenian Genocide condemned, recognized, and prosecuted, there would have been no Holocaust. And for this parallel to be questioned, and not addressed, Armenians (atleast me) see no reason to help our Jewish counterparts, unless they start to support us open, and willingly.
G- 'Turkish ploys' - ongoing, deterring, delaying, and then, Turkey's need for 'an independent commission of historians' is an insult to intelligent peoples the world over. Wake up! History exists of the Armenian Genocide of the Armenian nation perpetrated by a Turkey of the Ottomans, then pursued by all the subsequent Turkeys since. Turkey's pursuit to eliminate the Armenians from their own lands of nearly 4,000 years has been written in many languages. Of the Asian hordes who came upon the Christian Armenians, not only to gain their lands but took all facets of civilized Armenian culture which the Turks took - as their own - since they evidently had not any history of their own.
Today: Twenty (20) nations the world over, International Genocide organizations, Forty-three (43) of the 50 states of the United States of America, and further, Archives, the world over (in civilized nations) the Vatican, Washington DC, all of these possess in their Archives that which the world knows and recognizes - but not a Turkey. Turkey 's vile attempts to remove from their own lands the Armenians via slaughter, rapes, terrorism, families torn assunder, all in order for a Turkey to have a nation, a culture - Turkey for Turkeys. Howsomever, in the nearly one hundred (100) years since, the so-called 'democracy' of the Turkish nation, today, still revels in its 'Ottoman' mode in the treatments of even their own citizens... The Armenian Genocide by the Turks is history appearing in many books, in many languages - but of course, not for consumption by the Turkish citizenry... nor the Turkish leaderships... Manooshag
Ojalvo is a sephardim jew and my comments are deleted especially my comment on the high society should be added.
To Ojalvo My Father and my mother are armenian,all my ancestors are armenians we don2t m arry others for me it's a sin to marry a non-armenian I have nothing to hide.You think that you are too intelligent.I send many comments but the administarator deleted them it's not my fault and yes I support the so called Islamists in Turkey despite the fact that I am christian we have enough of the Sabbatean Kemal Ataturk and his dirty Kemalism
Turkey has killed 1.5 million Armenians (including members of my own family), has uprooted the survivors, has dynamited priceless cultural monuments, and continues to wage a campaign of disinformation against Armenians. All true.
Armenia is an isolated country whose land trade goes through a 10 km border with Iran and a somewhat larger border with Georgia. Trade with Iran has its drawbacks due to the position of Iran in the international community. Trade with Georgia is iffy and subject to ups and downs.
Beggars cannot be choosers. As much as it galls me personally, Armenia has no choice but to develop relationships with Turkey to the degree that it is possible. This is a matter of survival. At the same time, it needs to develop its own internal resources, build up those sectors of the economy (such as IT) that do not depend on the movement of goods and materials. This will increase its bargaining position vis-a-vis Turkey and the rest of the international community.
Of course, there are things that we can do to avoid strengthening Turkey's bargaining position, such as refusing to carry Turkish products, refusing to buy Turkish products, going on vacation in countries other than Turkey, etc. These require leadership--leadership that is sorely lacking. When was the last time we had an education campaign on those issues? When was the last time our so-called National parties put their differences aside in favor of the common good? Bickering seems to be easier than compromise, cooperation, and true leadership. When *that* changes, that is when we will start to see real progress on the Armenian issue.
Though, throughout their history, the Turkish tribes have been cunningly wise, in one thing they lacked and remain lacking. They could not go into the depth of True Islamic Faith and Sacred Writings. Turkish tribes were able to eliminate Christian Armenians and Orthodox Greeks, cheat on Muslim Kurds; they were willing to Turkishly dance in front of Slavonic Russians, French, German, and British Europeans, White and Colored Americans (and recently, Turkishly shout out at mighty and meek Chinese) -- all the time using the hatred of these nations toward each other, for the benefit of their Statehood (read terrorist statehood), Property (read haram and anti-islamic property, and Progress (read remote and anti-heavenly progress). Yet Turkish tribes have been clever enough to survive these minor and major calamities, their leaders failed to understand the meaning of Islam. Now, heavenly forces are about to work against Turkishness and traditional turkish terrorist statehood. If simple Turkish citizens are able to understand the meaning of human rights, the functions of heavenly forces, and the priciples of mutuality, hence asking excuses, forgiveness, and redemption -- Turkishness shall survive. Otherwise, Mighty and halal Arabs, Pure and righteous Kurds, meek Armenians, and humble Greeks shall destroy anything that is called Turkey in Anatolia.
Samvel Jeshmaridian
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
very good article. the turkish criminals have not changed aiota armenia should should not in anyway cooperate with these barbarians.
I have not killed anyone. Is it not time to make peace and to work together for a beter future? Hate will make you unhappy. Turky does not need Armenia but Armenia future prosperity is depending on Turkey. Just forget about the past and look into the future.
The answer to the question is YES. At the same time, it is impossible not to go to Turkey. The error is fatal.
Curious as to what fruits Turkey is enjoying from so called genocide??? Also what fruits Armenia would enjoy if Turkey acknowledges that it committed this supposed genocide?
Also regarding the suggestion: "Armenia should not agree to the Turkish demand of forming a joint historical commission to review the facts of the Armenian Genocide, in order to avoid the questioning of the veracity of the genocide and not to harm the chances of its acknowledgment by third parties."
Since Armenia and Armenians market the idea of a one-sided genocide committed by Ottoman Empire/Turkey and so strongly believe that this indeed happened, wouldn't it be so simple to prove that by providing historical facts in this joint historical commission??? Is there something to hide?
I shall never set foot in Turkey, as a matter of principle. There should not be any compromise wiith turkey's administration until they revert back to the treaty of Sevres, acknowledge the genocide. Normalizing relations with turkey, outside the prescribed parameters, is tantamount to a rape victim fraternising with the rapist. As for visiting turkey as a tourist, that is an unacceptable sacrilege on the part of armenians. Armenians do not need turkey. These turk race wiped out a five thousand year nation/people inside their homeland in a matter of 7 years. It was the first ,and only , successful; genocide in the XX century. Rather starve to death and die with our honor intact , than accept gracious blandishment from the turk administration. Do not buy any turkish products, none whatosoever.
"Since Armenia and Armenians market the idea of a one-sided genocide committed by Ottoman Empire/Turkey and so strongly believe that this indeed happened, wouldn’t it be so simple to prove that by providing historical facts in this joint historical commission??? Is there something to hide?"
One sided.? You forget the US Ambassador Henry Morgenthou was there during the mass killings and witnessed it all. All was detailed in OFFICIAL US ARCHIVAL MATERIAL , 40,000 pages to be exact, written in real time depicting the "systematic Armenian Race extermination". As well as official archives of the Europeans, the Russians and including the Germans, your own ally during the MASS MURDERS. They don't doubt it and neither do ALL THE GENOCIDE HISTORIANS AND THE 22 OTHER COUNTRIES THAT CALL IT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. Hardly One sided.
The idea that the Armenians are hiding some truth is not only and insult to all Armenians damaged worldwid but rather, borderlines on pure stupidity. In fact, Turkey is the backward, scholar stiffling country with laws criminalizing Turkish Scholars from discussing the truth of the Armenian Genocide. It is you who have much to hide. Contary to your beliefs, you are not the master race but a country founded upon the murder and theft of other races including the Greeks, Assyrians Armenians and Kurds. Turkey is a criminal state and should be regarded as such.
I am a Turk an love all Armenians. That is because I love all of GOD's creation. After all we are all children of Adam. According to Islam, Christianity and Judaisim we are all brothers. GOD want us to live in peace and to prosper.
Secondly - it’s true that minorities were forced to leave their soils and even got killed in great numbers during the last years of 19th. century and first 20 years of the 20th. century. But we must place these facts into the big picture of that time and realize that nation state transformation was in place anywhere in the region. Turks wanted their own nation state and unfortunetely they acted towards it in a not a holy way. But they were not alone. Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbians, Macedonians did it. And Armenians tried to do it. And none of these nations have sent Turks who had been living on the same territory for centuries with flowers and waved good bye.
However, we must not hate and harm each other for errors comitted by people who are past long time ago. Let the LORD judge over them. We must become friends, we are neighbours after all. That is in Armenian interest.
Oh pleaaaase how many Armeniens are there that could afford to travel to Turkey anyway? And please do stay away from us and heed Aravod's advice to "Rather starve to death and die". ; )
Time to bring someone back down to earth. Kadir -- it ain't Monaco. Though being harassed by beggars and vendors near Ephesus does remind one of Yerevan.
In 2006, a British Parliamentary group responded to the TGNA letter (twice!!) but were met with silence. What does Elekdag have to say about that?
Armenians threatening not to buy Turkish products is no different than a 5 year old kid threatening to kick me in the leg.
I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Margaret
http://grantsforeducation.info
Mr John the to be wanna be scalor.
you have no idea and Turkey is a criminal state, so what are you telling us here all the states in exisstence today are criminal states, so we send everyone back to where they belong, ok lets start with your country first, USA, remember what you have done to Indians here, and the british from all over the world and all the other nations ,
Ottoman empire was the most tolorent empire in the Wolrd and when it was disolved everyone was stayed as suck , jews armenias chritians everyone
after 10 generation of ottoman rule no one wa changed that is something
Dear Rootarmo,
The fact that Israel sides with the Azeris in the Nagorno Karabakh dispute has nothing to do with the Armenian establishment's of not condemning libelous canards imputing the onus of the Armenian genocide on the Ottoman Jews. You certainly know that for realpolitik purposes the Armenian government bestowed an honorary doctorate to the genocidal Ahmedinejad !!!
The relations between Armenia and Israel are one thing, and the relations between Armenians and Jews are something else.
Regarding Sevan,his remarks that marrying others than Armenians is a sin, sound quite racist. Personally, I have many Armenian friends and I can assure you that they are quite liberal and see no sin in marrying people from other nations. His very remark therefore makes me doubt on his real identity. I bet he is not Armenian ! He sounds more like an "Agent provocateur" of the Islamist fundamentalist ilk.
Denis
Dear Patrick B,
By inadvertance I addressed my comments destined to you, to Rootarmo.
Yours,
Denis
I have long been aware of these sanitized versions of Saroyan's original words, especially that last line, where the venerable author vents his anger just a tad. My question is, who rewrote Saroyan's words: the author himself, or someone else? I think we should insist on only using the original version.
To Mark, (or what ever your real name is,) the wanna be human being, you live in fantasy land. Why does turkey need laws muzzeling scholars? Why can't a supposed 'tolerant, democratic modern country' openly talk of the past in purely honest open debate?? Your people are fearful of the truth. After all, how can the "master race" apologise or give anything back? Turks have given nothing in their history, only stolen.
Great, everyones done it. That's the best excuse the Turks have? I don't deny man's inhumanity to man however today tukey, the incarnation of the genocidal ottoman regime, STILL DENIES THE FACTS OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. Tolerant? No, no, please ask any one minority living under turkish rule weather it was good times or bad times? Everone will tell you it was the worst in their history. Very Nazi like. You fool no one.
As far as boycotting goods, who needs tukish made garbage anyway? The best thing to do is TO STOP THE US TAX PAYER FUNDS THAT GO TO THAT COUNTRY! We pay billions of dollars for nothing. That needs to end.
Oaxaca, Mexico would be one of the last places I would expect to run into an Armenian. Then again it was in front of a church. I met some Armenians from Mexico (Guadalajara) at FOCUS in Chicago. My spanish is not the best, so when I first approached them it felt distant. Once we switched to armenian, it was like there was an instant connection and we were long time neighbors. Never ceases to amaze me how powerfully our language draws and connects us with eachother.
Why Armenia should supply electrisity or opening borders to cheap quality turkish products of that starving population(Kars and around)of Occupied Armenian lands.On the contrary Armenians put three conditions to "improvement" of Armenian-turkish relations.First recognising the genocide of 1915,second-financial compansations,estimated to 40 billions dollars by a Canadian historian,third returning all occupied Armenian lands after the treaty of Sevres,with some modifications.After that we can only think about normalizations of relations.
Thanks for keeping us up-to-date on this important story given the mainsteam media is asleep at the wheel. You guys are doing cutting edge work on what might be one of the biggest stories of the decade. Once and for all it may be exposed what really goes on behind the scenes regarding the Armenian Genocide Resolution and the Turkish lobby, and further, if Sibel has her way, who is truly responsible for the September 11 events. It's time to clear the air with some truth. If you haven't seen her documentary, Kill the Messenger, watch it.
.......and thank you, Sibel.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6063340745569143497
Although I understand why people started using/printing the sanitized version, it still irritated me. As a cousin of Saroyan, I know he was one not to mince words, and would prefer the original be printed. Let the real Saroyan be heard!
Taniel Varoujan, unfortunately you are digressing, you are confused and you are contradicting yourself; you raise concerns about Dr. Vartanian's grave's possible destruction by a traditionally violent and bloodthirsty Turkish individual in Istambul, but you do not seem to be worried about an eventual invasion and destruction of Armenia and Artsakh by 70 million Turks and 25 million Azerbaijanees,this kind of thinking is the ultimate illogicalness. With that same lack of logic you assumed that, the person who initiated this discourse, is against helping the passage of the Armenian Genocide resolution, you are totally confused; as a non-Armenian but as a person who is well aware of the unparalleled horrible atrocities committed by the Turks against the Armenian nation, I truly believe every drop in the bucket crucially counts and should go for building the rapid prosperity and defense of Armenia/Artsakh and the efforts for the passage of the Armenian Genocde Resolution in U.S. Taniel, I think with your irresponsible attitude you are either an unconscious Armenian or a Turk in disguise trying to create confusion among Armenians and divert their attention on unimportant priorities in this critical time when Armenia is facing total extinction. By the way, I am told by an Armenian friend that Taniel Varoujan is the name of a great Armenian poet who was one of the first victims of the Armenian Genocide, if you are a Turk in disguise using that great Armenian poet's name, it is not a surprise; but if you are Armenian, shame on you for desecrating the name of a great man by spreading such negative and destructive ideas against the Armenian nation.
As long as the criminals remain unpunished, loose and ignorant, what will keep them to do the same crime again and again, those Turks who refuse about their predecessors crime, they are participators in it also, how it is, if somebody takes your wealth, and belonging, and kills the majority (80 out of 86, if you like) of your family, and then drives you marching, into sun burning Syrian deserts, to starve you, and then turn and ask you to forget about it, and lets be a good friends. Very logical isn’t it! some Turks say yes it is, we didn’t do it. I say shame on you, for not asking forgiveness, the minimum requirement, befor calling us names. John,Aravod and Vardan are good people, we need more of them.Gedtse Dashnagtsoutyoun.
It is a fact that the armenians had their golden years under Ottoman Empire and they also managed to maintain their religion, culture, and traditions. No other empire allowed that.
As far as you stopping the US Taxpayer Fund, by all means go ahead since it has nothing to do with Turkey. Turkey had received no financial help from the US in over two decades. So far the US did nothing but cost billions in trade to Turkey with its neighbors.
And to those Turks trying to befriend armenians, it is a useless process. They are all injected with hatred the day they are born. The best thing to do is to fight hatred with hatred and inject your people against armenians as well. Make them aware of this armenian hatred towards them. Talk about it and wake up your people since the most are NOT aware of this insignificant issue.
Much as I regret it, the altered versions of Saroyan's saying are more memorable, and powerful, than the actual quote itself. Of course, it is inaccurate. Then again, so many memorable phrases are misquoted from the original.
No, Jason, that is not a fact -- it is highly debatable. But you seem to like running your mouth on subjects you might have read about once in Commentary or on some think-tank website, so we'll indulge you.
Hye Michael, your article was well put. Over the years, as the daughter of parents who had survived the Armenian Genocide, I've been a supporter of the ARF. I recall the dedicated and patriotic first generation of ARF leaders who in the diaspora, through all the years, maintained their goals for an Armenian nation rid of the Turks, rid of the Communists, never doubting that they might fly their nation's flag over a free Armenia. (Our flag was displayed in our churches - others had to borrow our flag when Armenia was freed of the USSR). My father would say, 'I do not expect to see Armenia free - maybe my grandchildren will.' And so it has come to pass, his grandchildren and further, third and fourth generations since the Armenian Genocide, in lands the world over - Armenians stepped up to become activists for the sibling nation of Armenia. Surrounded by Ottoman mentality - even until today..
Armenian republic, in its two-years (1918-1920) was led by patriots - men whose efforts foremost was for their fledgling nation to succeed... they fought the impossible battle for Sardarabad, and won the lands of the Armenian nation today - as was Karabagh.
Turks, warrior hordes that came down from the Asian mountains, conquering civilized nations and chose to perpetrate the Genocide of the Armenians - eliminate the Christian Armenians from their lands of nearly 4,000 years. Coveting, as well, all the civilized culture of the Armenians as if it were their own original Turkish culture - even until today. Turks sign agreements , since WWI, yet Turks will not abide by any agreements - even until today. Turks are playing games before the world - delay, detract, delete, destroy, whatever, but do not commit. Issue new projects, at the last possible moments to appear as participants - but, their warrior genes, their Ottoman thinking exists - even until today, even in so-called 'democracy'... Yet, it is still with the Ottoman thinking that Turkey today (thinks) it shall be the arbiter for other nations. Over the world so many great leaders of true democracies, who qualify head and shoulders above the Turk, who has the unmitigated gall to 'offer ' to step up and ready perform in this capacity. Does 'offering' to do this qualify a Turkey? Manooshag
Easy on the caps John. Since it is all documented, what's wrong with working together to bring out those documents and teach us ignorant Turks about the past??? It seems that the argument is not that Turkey should recognize the mass murder but it must give land and money to armenians to make you forget it all or make it all better. Go figure...
You do all recognize that it was the Ottoman Empire that was the ruler in 1915 and the Republic of Turkey was formed in 1923. You are saying that all of Ottoman Empire, although included tens of different ethnicity of people, are all Turks and that Turkey is just a mere extension of the Ottoman Empire? Turkey fought hard to kick out those invaders and mass murderers (greeks, englishmen, italians, etc.) to free the land and form our own independent country. To call now all Turks criminals and rapists is one of the biggest ignorance or misinformation.
There is such hatred in all of these writings that I doubt we will reconcile any of our issues any time soon.
I wish you would post all the submitted comments...if there is something wrong with or how I stated my comments I will welcome feedback, otherwise I strongly believe in my submitted views that criticized Adem Turk and Kadir Bey and I think they deserve such a reaction...
Mr. Editor, Mr. Moderator,
I suggest you check the identities of your commenting readers, since some may most likely be using Armenian names in order to disseminate disinformation, hiding behind that identity.
You could easily spot these in case you review their opinions on a given period of time.
Yours,
Denis
You all armenian haters, you form your unity by hating Turks, just 54 years ago Europe was at eachothers throuth and they killed 40 million people between them 20 millon of which was Russian, but today they improve their economy and open their borders, but no one like you armenians hormor the hate as any other race , you are full of hate and resentment, and you sufficate in your own hate and your country is starving to death, you need to move on,and build bettr future for your children ,only one thing l agree with harant dink, this hate is a poison in your blood, if you keep on passing this hate to your children they will face th same distruction as your grand parents and ofcourse will kill many Turks too in process,, like l said this site won't publish my latters only yours, and some balance site, l am so imressed,
By the way, whatever happened to Saroyan's children? I know one was a writer. What are they doing now? Are they involved in anything Armenian? I know they are talented people.
On a similar note, Saroyan may not have always been involved in things Armenian but he never turned his back on us. He first wrote in the Hairenik (the English language edition) - the predecessor of this paper - in the 1930's. How many of our "famous" writers - those who have "made it" in the larger American society - have bothered to write for their own people's publications? Indeed, how many of them have written anything about or for Armenians?
And not just writers, but other "successful" Armenian American, particularly elected officials, who have been politically co-opted, and dare not speak out about Armenian issues, such as the Genocide.
Often, the Armenian American media publicize and praise these people to the sky even when they have zero Armenian identity. It's pretty childish if you think about it.
An example: Yosef Karsh the famous, late, Canadian photographer. What did he ever do for Armenians? Nothing, as far as is known. He even lived the latter part of his life in Boston but had no contact that I know of with the Armenian community. When one local Armenian wanted to interview him, Karsh turned him down.
There are lots and lots of "famous" Armenian Americans like this that we go ga-ga over. Why, I can't understand. If they're not proud of us, why should we be proud of them? If they don't act Armenian, why should we even care about them?
Another one? Former US ambassador to Israel Ed Djeredjian. Can't stand the guy. Writer David Ignatius. Can't stand the guy. Oh, I could name more - lots more - but I won't. Not now, anyway.
Sibel, I consider you a hero, a patriot for your adopted nation, the United States of America... You brought to light the foul and deceitful policies pursued by our leadership, the various branches and departments of our government, as well as the vile actions of a nation who calls itself the 'best ally' of the United States. With such an ally, who needs enemies? Sadly, becoming a 'whistle blower' caused you to become mired in the convoluted maneuverings of those not interested in truths - but rather, have used all their efforts instead to use devious and dishonest methods to deter you. This brings to mind, as was done by another American patriot, who, rather than 'blow the whistle' he presented his findings in his book which was published and became available to the citizens of the United States of America. And, still upon publication he faced much derision, but his book had told it all... My heartfelt good wishes to you in all your endeavors. Manooshag
As to Saroyan's offspring, his daughter Lucy, a stage actress, died a few short years ago, after an unhappy last few years of life. Aram is a poet, novelist, biographer, memoirist and playwright, and, if I'm accurate on this, a university professor. He's won awards for his poetry, and is respected in the world of literature. Aram was invited to attend the Saroyan Conference in Yerevan this past autumn, but declined. Not sure if he's involved in anything Armenian or not. But his talent is unquestionable.
Dave is so right. These puffed up pseudo Hyes get invited to sit on the dais at April 24, functions. Their names are announced, they stand up, smile and wave to the audience and are next seen when they are running for re-election and are seldom if ever seen again. Phooey. We love Saroyan for at least writing about the Armenians but could he not have found one Armenian wife along the way?
Implementing a new genocide never corrected any past genocide. The only thing more depressing than a tragic history is watching one's own people repeat the heinous process on another people.
Let Karabakh decide for itself what it wants. The last thing this fragile process needs is a bunch if ignorant nationalists to destory what little chance there remains at peace. If I'm not mistaken, it was a group of ignorant nationalists that hijacked Ottoman policy and implemented the genocide of our people. For a while I entertained the idea that, having undergone such treachery, we Armenians might have learned from it and risen above this sort of racist ultranationalist rhetoric. Reading articles and comments like these makes me realize that we've become no better than the criminals who order the murder of our nation 100 years ago.
Does US President Obama know these facts? I do not mean whether he knows about this. I mean whether he knows this. President Obama should know that after bribery and political corruption the real corruption of hearts visits. I do not ask President Obama to evaluate and criticize the Genocide organized by Young Turkish government, in 1915. What I ask from US President is not to support corrupt governments. If he does not believe me let him read the Sacred Writings once again.
With all respect to above notes and comments...
Israel must recognize the truth of "Armenian Genocide".
Armenians and Jewish people suffered and persecuted by none Jews and none Armenians ..it is time for us to understand and recognize the agony, and the pain of “Genocide” and “Holocaust”..,
Thanks
The millions of Kurds that live in Turkey are more integrated to the mainstream society than outsiders understand. They are among the most celebrated singers, writers, comedians, artists, doctors, lawyers, politicians, and have gone up in the highest ranks in the army and government (i.e. president). It is true that this came at the expense of blending in to the mainstream society. If the many nations in the US insisted on only speaking their own language, and education in their own language only - would they have integrated to the American society as a whole? There is no question about speaking English and perceiving oneself as an American first and foremost, before ethnic background. What works beautifully in the US should work just as well in Turkey. Turkey is already a melting pot. Like it or not !
To read some of these it simply proves you cannot trust a Turk, regretably and I hate to write that.
But, in response to Adem Turk, Kadir Bey and Mark on Aug. 10, if someone killed your mother, father, spouse or child among other heinous atrocities too many to point out here, HOW FORGIVING WOULD YOU BE AND HOW WILLING WOULD YOU BE TO FORGET YOUR FAMILY’S MURDER AND PUT THINGS IN THE PAST? Think hard about that. Adem Turk's comment 'I am a Turk an love all Armenians' is unbelievale and, in my opinion, the same two-faced rational that duped the Armenians in 1915 and is not to be trusted.
I appreciate the asssorted pro-Turkish individuals who apparently monitor this site and offer their thoughts that we might be aware of them. That is not meant to be offensive but one can never tell, their interest/effort might initiate serious dialogue one day.
Harry: Thank you for your thoughtful words. Jack Papazian was and remains a heroic figure, who defined what it means to be an active Armenian American leader. His giving spirit, generous heart and belief in our common cause is inspirational.
Being born from Armenian mother and father it does not mean you are Armenian.
Neither knowing the language.
Armenians are Armenians by their heart and dedication
and not by their tongues.
Politics nothing to do with people.
Politicians are group of people try to change the unchangeable.
Earth poets are well know to write against politics.
Read the collection of poems "Politcs Play People Pay, Poets Proms Pledging Pray" in Amazon.
It is good to know what happening in the land of the free and home of the brave..
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7055
We Armenians need to recognize and appreciate those in our midst who give not only of their treasure, but also of their time and talent. Tom Vartabedian is indeed a treasure for our entire Armenian community. Whether writing about personalities, events or experiences, his ability, warmth and heart shine through. Thanks, Tom for all you do. ABRIS!
My dear friend: Those who read this are not children. You have made a gross mistake (most likely deliberate, judging from the degree of anger you demonstrate towards fiscal conservatism) by adding the three numbers to obtain 1049% figure. You should be alerted that you cannot add apples to oranges and bananas.
US Democracy is a democracy after 2 or 3 years.
Armenian Justice is a justice after 50 0r 100 years.
Turkish Kindness is a kindness after a century or two.
...From the mountains to the sea(Sevan)God Bless Armenia my home sweet home:)
Rootarmo I love u man because you have armenian blood in your veins.All Armenians will be united one day...I respect very much our Mother Church but I have a pagan belief about the Armenians.When an Armenian dies he/she goes to an Armenian heaven and joins the other Armenian souls.A Christian heaven doesn't interest me.All our souls will be united in heaven.
I would prefer to burn in heaven thousand times with all my family and clan.My tongue could be cut off and also my head,my eyes goughed before dying and it would be a better ending for me rather to see my people assimilated and our beloved Armenia erased from the face of the earth.That are my sincere feelings and I have nothing to prove to nobody about Armenianess.I have done a lot for my people and think still that it's not enough.The Armenians hanging in L.A,Paris,Boston or elsewhere can call me a bastard if they at least visit one time Armenia as an ordinary tourist.
My Armenianess is more valuable because I am from Istanbul.People including the most nationalistic parts of our D
Diaspora would better assimilate if they were in my place...We survived the fire and even today we are lions and can walk on the street with a smile on our face...
It's very easy to speak about Armenian issues and Armenia even in Iran which Ojalvo calls as a 'genocidal state' which is completely erronous.I knew many Iranians and I only heard sympathetic words from them on our people.It's hard to show your sympathy for Armenia in a hostile atmosphere.People can risk his/her life for it.We are the sons of Hrant Dink who was also a lion...
There has been a complete news blackout regarding this bombshell.
The reason should be obvious!
As much as the Turkish archives should be open to the world on the Armenian Genocide, the important thing is that after the 1st WW, the trials that took place found Talaat Pasha, Enver, & others,were found guilty of the Armenian Massacres and therefore the most important info. on the Genocide. Those trials should be publisized to the world. Also, Kemal Attaturk committe atrocities against Armenians, Greeks, and others of which are hardly mentioned. In this U.S.A. as Armenians we have failed in many ways to bring the Armenian Genocide to recognition. Petitions signed by millions of Armenians & non-Armenians should be sent to President Obama and the State Dept. Also, when Pres. Obama on April 24th did not use the "G" word, Armenians should have had a large demonstration in Washington, DC protesting Obama after promising the Armenians on five occasions that what happened to the Armenians was a Genocide. We must change our ways in doing things before it is too late.
More in response to Adem Turk, Kadir Bey and Mark.
Bishop Krikoris Balakian, who was among those rounded up by the Turkish government on April 24, 1915, narrated the following bone-chilling episode about aanother's (Agnouni) arrest in his memoir titled Hay Koghkota (Armenian Golgotha). When Turkish police officers came to his house to arrest him, Agnouni asked in a state of shock: “Does Talat know about this?” Agnouni was completely dumb-founded when the officers showed him Talat’s signature on his arrest warrant. He asked: “I just had lunch with Talat—how come he did not say anything to me?”
Agnouni was stunned by his arrest because he could not believe that Talat would betray him after he had saved his life during the Young Turk revolution of 1908, by hiding him in his own home at the risk of his own life. According to Balakian, when Agnouni finally realized that he was being led to his death, he told his fellow prisoners: “I don’t regret dying, since I knew that death was inevitable. My only regret is that we were deceived by these Turkish villains.” Balakian expressed his deep regret that the Armenians who had put their trust in Turks realized their mistake too late–when they were on their way to their deaths!
Now would you trust anyone who did this sort of thing?
"I support the so called Islamists in Turkey despite the fact that I am christian..."
Can't you guys tell when an Islamist is yanking your chain? This "sevan" character could hardly make his identity any clearer.
Thank you for making this invaluable information available! Eva Medzorian
To all Armenians, as well as ANCA,
Please take a look at Karabagh on Google map, there are no sign of it, while the map that shows Armenia and Azerbeijan is the old Soviet Stalinist map. We, Armenians, should get together and complain Google to update their map, to show the real and current political map of the region.
Struggle against www.google.com is something like self-destruction for the Turkish Soul. For Turks and Turkish Spirit, a mere discussion on Young Turks' terrorist policies of the beginning of the 20th century (something Turkish governmental agencies were doing in the 1920s) can enable Turks to get out of their inferiority complex.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
wow, what an amazing article for a second I felt I was there, you brought a visual picture to my eyes through your raw emotions, I experienced it with you.
Job well done, looking forward to read more.
Thank you Sibel Edmonds, what can I say, but thank you. You represent to me what my country was once, the leader of morality on a planet of many devious leaders of states/nations. Today the truths shall set us free. Freed from the medias that have been lost to us; freed from our governments that have lost their directions; freed from those elected leaders who on their way lose any sense of morality towards the United States of America - a republic such as the world has not known before.
Yet the silence is deafening. I have sought out all the 'famous' medias of the United States of America and not a 'peep'. Wow. Worse than I imagined! Vile lies, distortions, and more, evidently exists - guilty exposed. Hence, here I also thank all whistle blowers who have endured derision and foul treatments from those who used their positions of power to destroy whistle blowers. Whistle blowers, having spoken truths, were treated with undeserved contempt and ridicule. Whistle blowers, our honest citizens, whose in their love for our nation give their all, as they felt they must, yet had to bear the abuse from 'misdirected' powers of dishonest leadership. Persons whose (changing) allegiances (not for our nation) but for their greed - for monies to be gained from enemies (envious?) of the United States of America. (Some, thought to be allies. But, yet, with such allies, who needs any enemies)?
And , whither the winds shall blow... In all that our nation is facing due to the convoluted leaderships who have misled our nation these many years, we, citizens of our beloved nation must stand firm and, in a covenant with the morality of our earliest patriots , set our ship of state on course - to seek honesty and, of course, morality for all. Manooshag
It seems to me that the main argument of the article is that during the past 30 years the growth of government budgets in California wasn’t significant enough to satisfy the rising economic and social needs of the state. We could argue and debate about the appropriate set of data that we should use, but in my opinion the basic argument of the article remains valid.
You all talk about the so called genocide here and how Turks did this and that, did you ever wonder why all of a sudden after living side by side with Armenians for hundred of years Turks deprted them and many died during the deportation, and l assume some killed ,but many armenians remained in Turkey WHY? because when all able man returned from the war they found their families are massacared by Armenians rebels, now what whould you do if you come to your home and find your family killed, l tell you what they did the ones did the killing was deported and some was killed for a revenge, armenians opend an other front for the Turks to fight worst kind with in and you all sided with Russians for promise of a land, lets face it you made the biggest mistake and paid dearly and l also know you send man into Greek army to fight the Turks l call that a trader, and Turks allowed armeniasn to take possitions of highest levels of the Ottoman empire, and allowed the armenians keep their culture and religion, after 700 years, and come and see the hate of the armenians in USA, l seen it and l do not like it a bit, as long as you go on like this there will be no peace and we do not want it.
can Israel have peace with palestenians NO neither can we with you, walls are drawn and should remain as such
Thank you
Response to Haro
Unless Artsakh becomes universally recognised as an independent state it will not be shown in any maps as separate entity. I believe we have to concentrate on getting Artsakh through this difficult time. It is imperative that it stays in Armenian hands. If it is given back to the Azeris...it will be the final blow for our collective national pride and confidence
I am not Turkish or Armenian, but I have spent a lot of time in Turkey and done a great deal of research on the history of the Ottoman Empire and the creation of the Turkish Republic. The new Turkish state was created by the Young Turks, and these were the people dictating the methods used against the Armenians, yes, it was clearly genocide. To claim otherwise is simply a joke. There are so many historical sources open to anyone who wants to know. There is no need to go to a special archive. There is documentation and eyewitness accounts from many outside observers, as well as from Turkish and Armenian sources. Some of the best sources are from the Germans who actually helped facilitate the genocide, (at best they turned their heads away). There is an incredible wealth of American sources, eyewitness accounts, journals and diary's. If a few Turks spent a bit more time reading and a bit less time spewing nonsense on the internet, (really I find some of you guys if not sad, then just laughable), you might at least feel better about yourselves. Being an American, I am able to talk about the history of my own country, its genocide of the native Americans, its use of slavery-- none of this is a personal insult to me, it is simply historical fact. I don't understand why Turkish people are so desperate to cling to this crazy fake history that casts themselves on the one hand as the greatest victims of "outside instigators" and on the other hand as great and powerful warriors.
One reason it is important for Turkey to recognize and come to terms with its own history is that this will help it to deal with its current situation- the ongoing cultural and physical genocide being enacted against the Kurds. Yes, things are opening up and improving, slightly, but looking at history and seeing how ignorant and narrow the mindset is of most Turkish people, its difficult to be hopeful. I suppose people can't be blamed. The brainwashing starts as soon as school begins with slogans like "one turk is worth the world" etc. The system is very powerful there- it is a complete fear culture. There is no freedom of the press, and having a real independent thought can lead to prison so easily there. Last time I was in Turkey a turkish policeman became angry at me for speaking Turkish. "Why do you want to learn Turkish!" he screamed. And I replied that I thought the literature, music, and history was beautiful and tragic and I wanted to understand it. But what kind of country is this where people are angry at you for speaking their language? Turkish people should really ask themselves some hard questions. Take a break from the internet, and educate themselves.
Initially the genocide was a disaster for the remaining people of Anatolia as well because the destruction of the Armenian community, (with its advanced farming and craftsmen) destroyed the production of food and valuables, later there were simply no skilled laborers, to create a class which replaced the massacred people took years. But of course the Turks and Kurds did benefit from seizing the lands and livestock of the Armenians.
Excellent- Peace Corp in Armenia. Our beautiful country needs such wonderful people and organizations to carry us through the next 1000+ years. Beautiful and God Bless our country-USA and Armenia. Thanks to all-I miss you Armenia- 1978-1980 I was there!
we need some open borders to bring in trade and to enrich our people with the nice goods of society. We need to help our children educationally, culturally and socially so they continue to be respected and loved world wide.
Turkey does not want to acknowledge any genocide because in doing so, they may have to rescind some of their land. The Wilson Doctrine clearly established Armenian/Turkish boundaries, and Turkey essentially landlocked Armenia by ignoring it and establishing their own revision of these boundaries.
As for Kurdistan, it is one of the most oil-rich areas of the Middle East, and any country who occupies it would benefit from its riches.
America and Israel are incredibly foolish to believe that Turkey is their only ally in the Muslim world. If they think Pakistani and Saudi jihad is extreme, wait until Turkey revolts against their secular government. Then we'll see how friendly they are!
Dear Sevan,
You are a great Armenian in Turkey and you are one of "the sons of Hrant Dink" why don't
you raise your voice in Turkey and and tell your countrymen " truth of Armenian Genocide".. I am sure your civilized Turkish Government will help you to reach out to millions of Turks, who never heard of Genocide of their own Christian population, I recommend you send your great comments to "Today's Zaman" newspaper......
Unlike Turkey we have freedom of speech and we do not have "penal code 301" this is why we are hearing your garages.....
Dear Grish I sent many comments to the Zaman newspaper but only a few were published.You know who owns this newspaper,they are the force behind the current government.You really don't understand what I am saying...
The current government in Turkey is good for me for the Armenians and also for Armenia trust me brothers and sisters
Mr. Sevan, or whoever you really are,
I did not call Iran a genocidal state but said that Ahmedinejad was genocidal, and if you like "staticidal" as per his remarks of wiping out Israel from the map. Obviously he can not do this without wiping out the Jews living there.
While bestowing the honorary doctorate to the luminary in question, the University of Yerevan somehow disregarded that minor detail !!
Denis
I am confused.
What were the four charges against David Krikorian that have been dropped?
Can the reporter please enumerate the remaining charges against Krikorian?
Also, various web reports, such as Wayne Madsen's, are saying that the Congresswoman who was blackmailed sexually by the Turks is Jan Schakowsky of Illinois.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Schakowsky
Have the Armenian media contacted her for a response? Has anyone? Have Armenians written to and called the non-Armenian media (such as the LA Times, NY Times, Boston Globe etc.) demanding that they cover the Krikorian - Schmidt case and Sibel Edmonds' testimony?
August 14, 2009
Very interesting article, Arthur, which I shall read with pleasure. My wife is now readng it.
Wish I were there too! The last time I was in Jerusalem, with my family, was in the summer of 1965, and though I've wanted to go back year after year, it hasn't happened yet. Perhaps one of these days.
I look forward to reading Part 1 of your odyssey.
Haig
While I do not support any YouTube based criticisms, especially when the victim target is non-political science or history, but I cannot be included in these list of scholars that have subscribed to this article's content. With the same contradictory reason of being dogmatic and single minded in the same way that the YouTube video was. This article's content contradicts itself, and cannot be assumed to be in favor of "Open Minded Research", as it claims.
The current Armenian American community including its so called intellectuals is in a deep sleep. Most of these intellectuals (most but not all) are very much dormant and in some cases void of their functionality, even when considered as a good American citizens, let alone of being patriot Armenians. I am saying this because I am a product of UCLA, and after 10 years of my education in this system, I came to the conclusion that this system is more commercial in its nature than I assumed. It is not a mystery why the great Mathematical genius Gregory Perlman, after announcing his solution of Poincare Conjecture, and visiting USA, went back to Russia and into oblivion. I invite the reader’s interest to research and read a few comments that he made about Mathematicians in USA and Europe.
In science there is no such thing as “Open Minded Research”, there is what is called “intuitive interest and respect for attainable truth” and in some cases “Correct or Pure Knowledge”. It does not matter if you decided to become absolutely “open minded” and hence jumped off a cliff, the result that you will find out (and if you find out) could be very late and very painful. In this respect, you should have listened to what Newton said, and never tried to jump “open-minded”-ly off cliffs. In the same way, it is the responsibility of a history scholar to be very sensitive on matters of common knowledge. They should have foreseen such a wave of ultra-patriotic popular movement, when they were working in their comfortable offices and study rooms trying to compete in their criticism of Movses Khorenatzi with a slight stroke of a pen. If with such a “stroke of pen” liberty a Medical doctor performed critical surgery on a patient, it would have been a matter of losing a license and going to jail. In contrast, the history scholars are free and comfortable, but they should not take advantage of their luxurious discipline, and for example use anachronistic hypercriticism. Anachronistic Hypercriticism is beyond the language of history research. If we are allowed to use such, then all recorded history becomes the knowledge of nonsense (and not only Movses Khorenatzi’s). Therefore, anyone indulging herself or himself to such “Open Minded”-ness is either seeking a deliberate alternate goal (such as political) or is ignorant in the method of research.
I for one conclude that the YouTube video is only a wakeup call (Zartong), so that the dormant true intellectuals wake up and be more active in research. It is not the first time in history that criticisms come in a form of dogma (or pain), a lot of people were sent to Siberia for speaking out their innocent minds. Also, in a free speech country as supposedly in USA, anyone can fool anyone via YouTube, this is what you get when people are ignorant and careless about their past and future. The task of the Armenian so call intellectuals should have been to educate the Diaspora with pure Armenian intuition and respect for their cultural attainable truth, and not the destruction of its existing collective memory or knowledge.
From Las Vegas: you make your uncle proud keep up the good work.
for Mark and any others who subscribe to his skewed rational: can Israel have peace with palestenians NO neither can we with you, walls are drawn and should remain as such...
you've got it right on the mark, I hate to say it, it's a Middle Eastern sensibility (that I believe others do not understand). The Turks killed 82% of the then Armenian population and it was simple pure hate. You read and believe what you want and have a hard time dealing with the truth and I'm not going to go into that here. There is a disdain/hate by Turks towards Armenians that is evident today in many of their and their allies anti-Armenian actions that are not to be trusted. Give me back the dead of my family that the Turks killed (I never knew grandparents) and I'll
we can talk peacefully although we really should but you're going to have to deal with a truth you cannot admit to.
What is the crux of the debate? I still do not understand, and neither the petiti0ns nor anything else I have read elucidates this.
If I am correct, certain individuals in Armenia are saying that the date and place of the origin of the Armenian people is different - ie. earlier, at least datewise - than that which most Diasporan Armenian historians claim.
As a diasporan, I wish to say this: I don't trust our historians. Too many of them can keep their positions and privileges only if they do not speak out strongly for Armenia, do not disagree strongly with the US State Department, and are generally weak politically in terms of presenting pro-Armenians arguments.
Translated, that means that it would not surprise me if there were more than a kernel of truth to what the Armenians in Hayastan are saying. If I were an academician, I would not sign the SAS and IAAS petition. What I would like to see the Armenian American press do is tell us which of the petition signers are strong on Armenian political issues, which of them speak out, and where they get their money and what US government and NGO institutions (eg. Soros etc.) they are affiliated with.
Mr. Keteyian, we look to you and your colleagues to investigate the Sibel Edmonds case and Turkish/Israeli-Jewish collusion re: Armenian Genocide denial for CBS News. When may we hear from you?
Ah, yet another "famous" Armenian American journalist who has "made it" but who will not cover Armenian issues because ... why?
Because the media they work for won't allow it? Because the journalist himself/herself has no interest? Who are those media, and who controls them?
Armenia is a pivot country in the Caucasus. That is why the US and Russia are so interested in it. This is not worthy of coverage?
The Anti-Defamation League tells us that the Holocaust must be memorialized, and yet it sits down with Turkish leaders to figure out ways to deny the Armenian genocide and defeat the Congressional Armenian Genocide resolution. This sort of hypocrisy is not worthy of coverage by Mr. Keteyian's network?
My guess is that Mr. Keteyian's "investigative" unit only investigates "safe" subjects.
I agree with Bedros as much I understand him.
As to the question about what is the crux between historians of the West and Armenia, the problem is not just an academic issue (we would be glad if it was so). In fact, and unfortunately, it has evolved to become a political agenda. Years ago, we were not politically well educated to find out this organized political agenda, but only in the last 90 years the picture became more and more clear.
Most of the politics of the last 100 years (at the least) is based on historian's claims or discoveries. A good example of such is the founding of the Israeli state. It was artificially created based on the claims of the Old Testament. In other words, the basis of forming and the legal rights of the European-Jews to that portion of the land was solely based on an old semi-historic book (and nothing else).
This is why a slight change of the dating of the Movese Khorenatzi writing is indeed a big deal, given the political and legal implications that can be derived from such a disastrous assumption.
There are lots of books in Armenian and English that talk about such political agendas, and most of these books are written by true scientist and true Armenians (i.e. scientifically documented, please check the Internet for such books, and don’t believe anything you read without your personal full judgement)
In linguistics, there is also a big revolution that is happening in the last 30 years. More and more scientists are discovering that there is no such thing as Indo-European migration, it is more likely that it was an Aryan-Indian and Aryan-European movements that occurred years ago from Armenian Highlands into two directions, West via Phosphorus, and East via Persia.
So there are lots of bias on the side of the US/Western historians and linguists. Moreover, as I said, these biases are recently being employed for political agendas (e.g. the recent issues about Macedonian state, Kosovo, Karabagh, etc.)
For example, Azerbaijan dwells on the principle of Territorial Integrity, but what is the legal or historical basis of Karabagh being in Azerbaijan in the first place. If we look back in the history, there was no such thing as Azerbaijan as a country, never in the history. In fact, Aderbadagan was a state of Armenia, or in some cases it was occupied by the Persians and it therefore was a state of Persia, but never as a separate country. So "Territorial Integrity" is an absolute nonsense in this case. In fact, if this so called "Territorial Integrity" principle should hold, then the entire Azerbaijan should be handed back to Armenia along with the whole Western Turkey.
This is why claims of historians are indeed a big deal.
My point as a scientist is as follows: When does the conscience of a scientist overrule her/his creative ideas or imagination?
The answer is very simple, it is when the idea or imagination crosses its border from pure thought into misuse or false application in the physical world. For example, when I think about nuclear model ideas, it is good and very helpful. But when I deploy these ideas to create a Nuclear bomb, then I cross the conscience science boundaries and into the realm of anti-science.
I think that academicians from Armenia and the Diaspora should put aside personal recriminations and tell us what they believe the origins of the Armenian people are, and back it up with the best facts available. I think the Armenian American media should ask each side to present its case.
Dear Mr.Vartabedian,you just put a big smile on my face.
I read your article and wished we never had the telephones,cell phones,e-mails.
At least,when we did not have all of the above,we had friends and relatives knocking at the door instead of dead promises...
Thank you for being honest.
I hope we do it..
I pray to God that we will win.. and we should win..
Armenians United..
Gayane
P.S. I can help with as little as I can.. Hope all the rich Armenians can support Krikorian.. We need their financial help to win this race.
I am glad that this is being discussed and awareness is being stirred among the people, but I want to contribute the following information- THERE IS A SHOW ON THE "Business India" SEGMENT OF CNBC-World CALLED "Young Turks". The show is about Hindu business people and entrepreneurs. The producers clearly modeled the show's title on the fact that the Turkish C.U.P. party, commonly known as Yong Turks, were bold reformers compared to the backward Ottoman Sultans and therefore an inspirational model to be borrowed from. Petition should be organized to convey the natural outrage that nations like Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians and Christian Arabs persecuted to the point of annihilation feel to the mere mention of the phrase "Young Turks".
Remeber Apo the first time we saw you in Canada, we predicted that one day you will be very famous , it was written all over you, You were smarter than all the kids your age and acted very elegantly and proud. So keep up the good work and keep your good news coming. Excellent article very vivid description..................... Love & Miss you so much
Turkish government must recognize the issue of Genocide, it should
take it to Armenian scholars.
During this discussion they should revile atrocities committed by their Countryman.
This should be taken as a negative human behavior and should be an example of
corroboration between current generations, without punishing them, but making them
aware for the generations to come.
What concerns the Armenian territories, which was captured by Turkish government,
should be returned back to its owners-Armenians, with out any conditions. New road
map should be drawn as it was done by Woodrow Thomas Wilson-28th
President of the United States America.
When I read the title, "Traveling with Basturma," I thought perhaps you were going to share the common experience of what it is like to be bundled up with "care packages" (from grandmothers, mothers and assorted others) of good Armenian food to those who crave it. My Greek husband is one such recipient: he loves basturma (I don't really eat much of it myself although I am the Armenian in the family!)
So, I remember one particular airplane flight, when I was coming back from a visit my family in Fresno, California, flying to our home in New York. Of course, I had to bring my husband a package of basturma. So, wrapped carefully with advice from Mom in a layer of wax paper, a layer of plastic, a layer of aluminum foil, and this repeated a couple of times, I embarked on the plane with my package of basturma. An hour or so into the flight, my care package in a plastic bag by my feet, every time I turned or adjusted in my seat to get comfortable, a certain odor would waft through the plane as my feet nudged the bag next to me. It only had to move a millimeter or so. People wondered what it was that smelled much more aromatic (better) than the airplane food! I just looked around quizzically, of course. But it's a flight I'll always remember. Basturma, he scent of love and care! Well, a loving family is not always easy :-)
There are only three things needed to fix the American health care system despite which political side of the fence you are on. 1. Stop benevolent healthcare benefits for illegal aliens and the cottage industries that have developed in other countries sending them to the US for undeserved free healthcare at taxpayer expense. 2. Stop the slip and fall lawyers from suing the pants off of anyone and anybody they can driving up healthcare costs for doctors malpractice insurance as well as prescribing a whole bunch of unnecessary "cover your vuddig" health tests to be sure you didn't "miss" anything for fear of being sued. 3. Fix the abuses in SSI/Medicare/Medicaid that exist today for people receiving undeserved benefits and cheating the system.
There is NO reason to have a gov't takeover of our healthcare system, period! It is just a power grab by the government and nothing else. Don't believe for a second that you will still have affordable private health care options once the government takes healthcare over. The private insurers will all be put out of business.
Lastly, I question some of the numbers being presented in garen's article. Last time I heard the health care HMO profit margin was only about 3.5%. The number of uninsured people also is in question. How many of those do not want to pay for private health care?
Keep the faith and God bless America!
Nigol, I suspect the word "basturma" is somewhat more internationalized. I think the route to the linguistic (if not culinary and gustatory) truth comes through comparison with "pastrami". The word is essentially the same, as is the basic concept. Just the flesh and paste used are different.
I remember Mr. Papazian as our coach while we trained for the junior olympics during my last summer in Philly, 1983. He was so thoughtful, that he sent my chapter trophy with a personal note inside to my new residence in Racine, as I was already en route to WI and not able to attend the award ceremony that followed the olympics. To this day, I remember his generous and dedicated spirit. I was only eleven, but he made such a lasting impression on me that I knew I was in the presence of a great man. May you rest in peace, Unger Jack.
Oh basturma. My mouth is watering remembering the taste, the basturma
my father used to make. Early fall he would start the procedure, buying
the meat and preparing it and all the spices. The meat was hung in our
back porch to dry. Submerged in the spices, for weeks, mixture checked
frequently until it was ready. During this time, there were several
families that asked my father to make Basturma for them. He did and
every Sunday morning he would go to their homes and check the Basturma
until it was ready to be consumed. Then came the distribution of our Basturma. Our Armenian Doctor got two hunks, another couple for the Priest and others. We ended up with a few pieces ourselves, delicious, how could
I forget. When fall rolls around every year I remember Basturma. Buying from the Armenian stores is not the same. Huma chega
Great column by Betty. Those of us who belong to the 1950s generation can relate to it. Elvis, cool cars, white bucks and swinging chicks. What else could make the world so ginchy!!!
Dearest Arpi,
Wow this is a heated and confusing topic for me. Just look at my last name, I am Armenian, but look at my last name: Özkalfayan. If you took the "YAN" away, it would be completely Turkish! My birth mother came to the US in the early 1970s from Istanbul. At the age of 3, I was adopted into an American family with no connection to anyone or anything Armenian. In fact, it was not until I got my hands on my adoption records in my early 20s that I knew my family was from Turkey, and not Armenia, which was what I had been told by my adoptive family. In my teens I tried to connect with other Armenian youth through a church in Bergen county. One day I read a poem I had written about being Armenian, and everything I had learned about the genocide of 1915, at 16 in front of 100s of strangers. For the first time in my LIFE, I was surrounded by my kind, and blown away with how people embraced me that day. I spent many years researching, reading, writing, absolutely anything I could get my hands on about Armenians, culture, and history, especially the genocide of 1915. What I did not even know about myself at the time, is that I am, well, "Bolsahay".
Interactions between my peers was interesting and very confusing for me to observe. There was very CLEARLY, a division between them. Example, one afternoon I was at a pool party thrown by a young lady in my youth group. Two or three Armenian girls were having a conversation amongst themselves, in Turkish, and getting major attitude from a handful of the other girls, while the rest really didn't seem to care (lol). I guess my question is, would you consider these young people any less "Armenian" because their families are from Turkey, and speak Turkish in addition to Armenian? That was absolutely the impression I got that day. Then there was the other group of Armenian girls joking about how they went into Turkish chat rooms on AOL and cursed everyone out, calling all of them murderers. Then there was ME. Where did I fit into the equasion? My name at the time was not Armenian because it had been changed when I was adopted, I did not speak Armenian, and ultimately it was too much, I felt rejected from all angles. But the Armenians from Turkey where just as proud of being ARMENIAN, speaking ARMENIAN as they were of being from Turkey, and speaking Turkish, and YES, pride in Turkey as their homeland, often with NO hatred for Turkey, Turkish people, or the language. Does that make them any less Armenian?
But can you imagine the day I opened the mail to discover that my mother was NOT born in Armenia, but ISTANBUL? I was so confused. I was always aware of her last name, Özkalfayan, which is now mine since I reclaimed it, but had no idea until I reasearched it, that it is a very, very Turkish sounding name.
At 28, my experiences and interactions, with not only Armenians, but, yes, TURKISH people, and people from all OVER the Middle East has been so interesting, and thought provoking, people have shared their stories, and personal feelings. The consensous amongst SOME Armenians who ARE NOT from ARMENIA, but from all over the Middle East, who speak Arabic, Farsi, etc. really DO feel shunned at times by people who claim Armenia as their homeland, or that having a YAN as opposed to an IAN makes them less Armenian.
Fundamentalism all around is just, scary. At 16 listening to well-educated, decent people say hateful things about Turkey and Turkish people, about how they are all "murderers", even if they are merely decendants of the "Young Turks" with a few generations removed. Too much. As proud as I was, and STILL AM of my ARMENIAN roots, as much as I loath the attrocities, the GENOCIDE, of MY kind in 1915, I cannot be consumed with HATE. The anger is justified, but the HATE will not change anything, it will not answer questions. Why live a life filled with HATE and ANGER? WHY NOT aim for PEACE, and COMMON GROUND? Yes, we HEAR YOU, Turkey and Armenia have some work to do, it is time to open up archives and really sit down in PEACE and discuss the genocide. Nobody is asking you to FORGET!
CHILL. A talk show called "THE YOUNG TURKS" is not a threat to Armenians.
Leave Cenk alone, he cracks me up with his political satire, AND I give Ana Kasparian MAJOR kudos as well, because I feel by the two of you coming together, an Armenian AND a Turkish person, that perhaps this can be a foreshadowing of what is to come in regards to Turkish-Armenian relations, hopefully PEACE, and a sense of humor.
Now excuse me while I go make myself Turkish coffee...ooppps.....I mean't Armenian.
PEACE,
Juliette Öz-kalfa-YAN
Since when did affordable health care become a bad thing? If we will not have affordable private health care option that means that the non private option is the more desirable one. People are not stupid and they will chose whatever is best for them. The fear that the non private option will be the better option by private industry is why they are fighting tooth and nail not to change the present system. I thought that this country is for having choices. I want to have a choice as do many others and having no choice but only the private sector is nothing but communism.
We are keeping the faith as our government is bailing out our private financial system. The health care system will be next if nothing is done.
Good will bless America only if we have a choice.
I shared the same pleasant surprise while on travel and browsing the well stocked food buffet at the Hilton Hotel in Alexandria, Egypt. Right there between the succulent smoked salmon and marinated shrimp was sliced basturma carefully trimmed free of its potent coating. Unlike the airplane meal though it was delicious. I later found out basturma is available at most restaurants and sandwich shops in Egypt.
NIGOL & GARY.
THANKS for all the basturma background & stories.
I used to shop @ BEZJIAN'S on Santa Monica in LA when I lived there in the 1970s.
Rock on.
MIKE ADAJIAN
Chicago Wednesday 8/19/08
PAREV.
I would like to receive your news often
Thanks.
It does not make any sense,when one side gives up security buffer zone;while the other party on paper promises no to invade.Referendum my donkey.What are Azeris doing to compensate for all the Sumgait pogroms?This is pure male bovine fecal matter.Always remember Khrimian Hayrig's "Yergate' Sherep" Sermon.Armenia should consider simeltaneous withdrawal with Karabagh's self determination.Tit for Tat.No other alternative.All the written papers treaties in the past were in vain.We couldnot even use them as TP.
No independece =Noland.
Very interesting analysis, but still fails to mention Armenian refugees from territories surrounding Karabakh. Don't forget that Shahumyan region that had 90% Armenian population before 1992 is currently under Azeri occupation. There were about 70,000 Armenians living homogeneous Armenian towns and villages in Northern Artskah before the conflict. It is really a shame that even Armenian side fails to mention it or even tries negotiate their right to return. No territory surrounding Karabakh that used to have Azeri population should be returned unless Armenian territories are returned.
Jason Kopeczki wrote: //It is a fact that the armenians had their golden years under Ottoman Empire and they also managed to maintain their religion, culture, and traditions. No other empire allowed that.//
Laughable. "Golden years" under occupation and discrimination? Really? And please tell me more about how for example the British Empire was suppressing religions, culture or traditions of their colonies. Not sure if this is mere ignorance or something more in it.
Is Mr. Sassounian the Armenian president? To my knowledge he is not. So, how he dares to formulate "From the Armenian point of view, the only acceptable solution..." Mr. Sassounian is not even the president of Artzakh. This situation is because of the fact that both presidents have grown too feeble. Both Artzakh and Armenian societies should properly support their presidents. Otherwise, Mr. Bryza will fullfil his mission as a grossmaster and the two Armenian presidents (but not the societies) will have to dance under Mr. Bryza's duduk. This may lead to a new war.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
We , the armenians of Cyprus wish David all the best and a win in the elections.
Dear Hagop:
Instead of wishing David warm wishes. Why not donate a few dollars to his campaign ?
Armenians all around the world should be OUTRAGED. Mr Bryza must take the entire Armenian people for fools. This whole agreement is buying the Azeris time before they are in a perfect position to completely wipe out Artsakh, and the Americans will let them get away with it, just like they are letting Turkey get away with our Genocide. Their interests are with the Azeris and Turks, and that is the only thing on their minds. They have never been objective and fair moderators. They are not mentioning the Armenian refugees from around Karabakh, because they want to populate "our historical" lands by Azeris only... Sounds familiar? Artsakh has the RIGHT FOR SELF DETERMINATION. First and foremost, its independence must be acknowledged by Armenia, Azerbaijan and the US before moving any further. The Armenians in Azerbaijan were attacked by the Azeri government, defended themselves, won the war and won their historical lands back. Those lands were always ours until Stalin gave them away to Azerbaijan. We are behaving as if we invaded and took over another country's land!! We need to find an effective way to make a strong stand in this, otherwise, we will be signing off some more of our rights by our own hands. The US needs to put its principles for Democracy and Self Determination where its mouth is. It is fighting the rightful Self Determination of Artsakh because it does not suit it.
Jason Kopeczki wrote on August 9th, 2009:
Turkey had received no financial help from the US in over two decades.
SIR: TURKEY IS THE THIRD LARGEST RECIPIENT OF UNITED STATES FOREIGN AID DOLLARS AFTER EGYPT AND ISRAEL...you're blowing smoke and you think it's the other guy who is the problem...you've got you head in the ground!
Juliette, Wow, how strange. It's me Arpi. We just spoke earlier this evening.
I didn't give you those cups so you could make Turkish coffee. Not funny. Cenk needs to stop denying the genocide before I leave him alone.
Arpi
I came across this page in searching for information about the role of Jews in the Young Turk movement and the alleged Jewish involvement in the slaughter of the Armenians. I happen to be of (New York) Jewish ethnicity myself, which helps stimulate my interest in such topics.
The first point I'll make is that Ahmedinejad never said anything in any language that could be translated as threatening to "wipe Israel off the map", in the violent sense of that English idiom. (Ironically, one can't exactly "wipe Israel off the map" in the cartographer's sense, since the Zionist state has never provided a map that shows its claimed borders!) And neither Ahmedinejad nor the Iranian state is genocidal in its treatment of minorities, while both Israel and Turkey are!
I don't, however, think one should be calling on the U.S. Congress to label what any other governments have done as "genocide" until that Congress has applied that label to what the U.S. has done to the Native Americans, to the enslaved Africans, to the peoples of Southeast Asia and Central America, etc.. Otherwise, you're just helping the U.S. rulers to prettify themselves by condemning the crimes of others, as they have done with the Nazi mass murders of Jews and others.
I do not understand why Armenians who are Azeri citizens are not populating the Lachin corridor. What are they waiting for? I understand that they lost their porperty during the attacks by Azeris. In Lachin area it would bve almost impossible for the Azeris to attack them again.
Somebody should ask Bryza why he is taking orders from Stalin.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Armenians win the war? Usually sides that win wars are the ones dictating terms. Why do we need to give anything back? Bryza is a Turkish mouthpiece nothing more, nothing less. Our history alone will tell you that relying upon anyone else or any thing else for our well being, security or our future is pure fantasy. WE WON THE WAR. WE DO NOT HAVE TO COMPROMISE! A resumption of war, which no one wants, will also damage Azebaijan and they know it. To Mr. Jeshmaridian, Sarkisian, considered by many to have won the election by pure fraud, might not be considered a legitimate president either. Sarkisian worry's me the most. He doesn't seem to be terribly shrewd or intelligent. Sassounian is right.The whole point of the war was independence. Karabagh independence first, then land exchange! Anything less is pure loss!
Ok...my apologies, its just Turkish coffee and Armenian coffee are made the same way, if you put a cup of each in front of me, would I know the difference? Of course when I make my coffee, its Armenian! Again my bad!!! How do we know for sure that Cenk denies the genocide? Something tells me he does not deny it. Ana Kasparian obviously doesn't. I think we should straight up ask him for a definitive answer, and, yes, I am curious about why the show is called "The Young Turks", though I don't feel it was aimed at Armenians, but why not ask him?
<3 Juliette
Also, there are plenty of Turkish people I have met over the years who whole heartedly believe there was a genocide against the Armenians and that Turkey SHOULD admit it. I think there is a new generation, Turkish and Armenian, who want there to be peace, not to forget what happened, or make light of it, but talk about it. Ana Kasparian makes a good point when she said that Armenia needs to have better relations with its neighbors, specifically Turkey and Azerbaijan.
Born in Sudan of Indian origin, studied in Alexandria, Egypt in 1962-1963 in English Boys School in Shatby. Then joined the medical college in faculty of medicine and graduated in 1971.
I had 2 Armenian friends : (1) Dr Alexian Bodesian graduated with me and he specialised in Psychiatry and worked in Mamoura hospital.
(2)Hagop Orchinian graduated from engineering college from Alexandria.
I need his whereabouts and their addresses. Anyone who is in touch with them please send me some information to relocate them as I miss them a lot.
Thank You. Ramesh
THIS IS JUST SICKENING to my stomach..I can't stand Bryza and his idiotic speeches on matters that he has no personal experience in.
I just dont' get it.. Is our President ready to give up our lands without a fight? He does not have the guts (nicely put) to stand up and say "Minsk Group" Doctrine is nothing but a garbage.
WE WON THE LANDS.. Our President and his pack need to realize that the entire world is looking at us and nod their heads because they see how much love, dedication and fire the Armenians have for their lands and nation, yet we always retreat.. This needs to STOP......
G
I agree with John on here. If Armenians won, why should we give up anything? All in the name of peace, but there will be no peace. Bryza is a Turkish mouthpiece.
Unarmed peacekeepers? Give me a break! Sitting ducks is more like it.
Bryza is married to a Turkish woman, so it doesn't surprise me that he should espouse the Turkish view. But it is not his choice of spouse that bothers me, it's what comes out of his mouth. Was this guy appointed by Obama? It tells you something when the man who is the US representative wants to become ambassador for Azerbaijan.
Of course, has anyone in our wonderful Congressional Armenian Caucus bothered to look into the Sibel Edmonds case, call hearings, bring it to the nation's attention, rallied their colleagues around the issue, and speak about it on the floor of Congress?
If they have, to any significant extent, we have yet to hear about it.
Congress is not, after all, bound by the Federal gag order on Sibel.
The Armenian Caucus does not want to rock the boat, it seems.
Sibel has alleged for several years now - yes, several years - that Turkish spies have been operating in the US. And no, this issue did not suddenly make an appearance during Sibel's Krikorian case deposition.
It's pretty easy to fool Armenians. A Congressman has to merely join the Armenian Caucus, and we swoon over him or her. We're cheap dates.
This is the state of the Armenian American community today. This is the state of our political organizations today.
I agree with David, we are cheap dates. Congressman promise to give some lip service to a Genocide Resolution that they know has a long shot of passing and in turn we do fundraisers for them. Heck we don't even demand results just that they sign on as a co-sponsor. And when the DEMOCRATIC leadership shelves the vote...what do we do ? We go right back to supporting them as if they were not the ones who killed the vote. I thought things would change when the democratics took over the House but nothing has changed.
Just what exactly is the purpose of the Armenian Caucus if its not going to look into the allegations that are being made here? Why not hold a hearing. Congressman hold hearings about all sorts of topics that frankly they have minimal influence over (Steroids in baseball comes to mind). Why not a hearing over this topic, at least it would be something meaningful.
Did you guys even read the article? It is clearly stated in the second paragraph that "the U.S. Congress has even been gagged to prevent further discussion". Also, NEVER talk down on the ANCA. Words cannot express what they have done for the Armenian Cause against all odds and with the smallest staff (only a van full). They have helped Armenians FAR MORE than the Armenian government.
to view a partial list of crimes committed by FBI agents over 1500 pages long see
http://www.forums.signonsandiego.com/showthread.php?t=59139
to view a partial list of FBI agents arrested for pedophilia see
http://www.dallasnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3574
to find out more about the FBI 's history of committing voter fraud google
leonard gates bob draise fbi voter fraud
I deeply suspect Ms. Edmond's loyalty to the US. She has abandoned her previous loyalties (Iran, Turkey) with ease, she can do it again. As they say in the army, never trust a betrayer, even if they betrayed your enemies...
On the other front, it is clear she is desperate trying to get attention, and her motives should be questioned...to me , it seems like she is managing a PR campaign to settle for a lucrative book deal or something.
Guess what? The original Young Turks weren't even really Turkish at all...Ottomans yes, ethnic Turks no.
Levent must have just discovered Sibel Edmonds because he obviously doesn't know (or didn't read the article?) that she has been whistle blowing for 7 YEARS now and has got nothing for it except threats of imprisonment from the US government. She will never get a "book deal" because every publisher is owned by the same a-holes who own the Mainstream Media which has not whispered ONE WORD about her or her evidence...it's a blackout.
How can a person be so stupid as to question a person's loyalty to America when that person is trying to fulfill her (and ALL of our) obligation to defend the constitution against "Domestic enemies"? I would call government officials who sell state secrets to foreign governments and take bribes to run congress for the benefit of foreign entities "domestic enemies".
Mr levant
You are obviously one of those Israeli paid surfers; paid to attack anything or anyone that is harmful to "the Fatherland and "Bibi". Yes Sibel was a traitor to Iran at about the age of 2 (two) She took her pacifier and a few diapers and left. She has never been a big fan of Turkey or Iran for that matter. She is instead a big fan of human rights and justice no matter what country. Do not forget: you are a human first. your first loyalty is to humanity, your second is to you family, your third is to your country. If you don't believe that you would have done well in Nazi Germany or the up-and-comming New USA (which Sibel is afraid of). YOU CAN BE A LOYAL AMERICAN WITHOUT BEING LOYAL TO THE GOVERNMENT. She has been a loyal US citizen for 2/3 of here life, so loyal that she will stand up for the Constitution. Do you find Obama and Bush or most of Congress more loyal? Do they honor thier oath to the Constitution?
If Sibel does write a book it is only more insurance for her life and the life of her family. If she shuts up and says nothing she is probably more likely to face an unexpected early death as many that "knew too much" have had happen to them.
AND! . . . as the Armenians like to play with the rest of us poor fools trying to learn their language - we have Dikran better known as Tigran, and Karakin better known as Garagin and Baklava or Paklava and Kevork or Gevorg, and ... you get it. And then there are transliterations of words from other languages like Banir (cheese) in Armenian and Panir in Indian and Armeno/Greek offerings like Bedros and Petros . . . So, you see, if you really take the underlying priciple of substituting labial consonents (is that linguistically correct?) for their neighbors you get right to my point ::
Namely that if you do that with Basturma - you will quickly get to - P(B)ast-ram(urm)-i(a) - yes folks the spices may be different but the process is the same and what went in one door as Basturma surely came out the other as Pastrami. Now I'd really like to see some research on that!
Interesting blog. The odd thing it is seems at least five of the posters under various names are the same person. She is mocking others while using their name. For those who don't know the following are all the same: Vanessa, Ara, Jeannie, Haikush aka Sona are all the same person. She also sometimes goes by Lauren & several other names.
She is a very sad woman from California with Armenian heritage & delusions of Armenian superiority who grossly failed at an adoption. Now she has made her mission to be the destruction of any adoptions from Armenia including attempting to destroy the credibility of anyone in Armenia ora broad facilitators & agencies who assist folks who adopt from Armenia.
Please say a prayer for her to find some peace.
An odar who adopted a darling boy 2002 (heritage is not necessary)
levant is obviously one of those megaphonies, no one that has even 1/100th shred of loyalty to America would ever question Sibels loyalty to this country. the people who really run this country don't take kindly to dissent and whistleblowers, and it isn't above them to suicide people who threaten their power grid (DC Madame for instance?) How much is Bibi (what an awful nickname for a supposed ADULT) paying you to be a megaphony and traiotr against your own country (i assume you are an american if you have any care on commenting on loyalty to this country)? levant just because you don't spout the knee jerk "anti-semite" do you think your motivations are any more opaque?
It gives some hope that there are yet a few honest and courageous people willing to stand up for liberty and resurrect some of the honor that this country let die. "Thank you," Sibel.
Interesting Karek,
Also note worthy that today in Turkey, Turkish people are such a MIX, a melting pot of Caucasian, Near Eastern, etc., that ethnically they are not any different then people in surrounding countries. Someone did research, they tested a few hundred adult males, and found that their was NO "Asian" component at all in the DNA, I guess from many generations of intermarriage with native people of Anatolia, and Europe. There is, to date, no marker for Turkish DNA. According to Wikipedia:
"...intermarriages with people in the former Ottoman territories of Southeastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa ensured a largely heterogeneous gene pool that makes up the fabric of the present-day Turkish nation. The Turks of today, in short, are the descendants of the Turkish-speaking Muslims in the former Ottoman Empire."
Thank you Khatchig for this revealing interview. I hope you print the names of the 65 Representatives who have Turkish financial support. Congratualtions to famed attorney Mark Geragos for defending David Krikorian. Shame on the Cincinnati Enquirer newspaper for not having an enlightened research dept. so they would have the true facts on the Armenian Genocide. Maybe then they would be backing Krikorian. It continues to be an uphill battle educating the American press. It will be an interesting race to watch, good luck to Krikorian.
"It gives some hope that there are yet a few honest and courageous people willing to stand up for liberty and resurrect some of the honor that this country let die. “Thank you,” Sibel."
It is always great to see someone do the right thing
Thank you Nigol for this brilliant article. It was very informative and educational. It took me back to my childhood and the days of my late Grandfather in Lebanon (Voghormadze) . Yes Basturma may smell but it is planted deep in our culture and history. As a proud Armenian whose grandparents were survivours of the 1915 Genocide, I say yes we did bring this great meal to the middle east as well as so many other great attributes to the region. In fact some of the world’s best basturma is still found in both Lebanon and Syria. As for those complaining about the smell and making fun of us; all I have to say to them is may the whole world one day say: “It smells like basturma here”
Thanks again, can’t wait for your next story…I hope it’s about Sujouk (Soujokh)
Now you know why the NWO, illuminati, corporate gangsters and the corrupt legions of authority wish to silence the internet and free speech whether it be on the tv, street or your computer screen. Thugs in power are like cock roaches when stories like this are brought out to the light of day. Our world today is ruled by corruption and the more who join, the stronger it gets.
Readers of this article may not know that there was a deliberate effort on the part of Turks and certain of their friends to make sure that the Armenian Heritage Park was never built.
The most vociferous opponent of the Armenian Park was Peter Meade, a board member of the New England ADL (Anti-Defamation League) and a former VP of Blue Cross Blue Shield. He was instrumental in bringing the ADL's so-called No Place for Hate program into Blue Cross, and getting Blue Cross (using your health premiums) to fund No Place for Hate. As readers of the Armenian Weekly know, the ADL denies the Armenian genocide and works with Turkey to defeat the Armenian Genocide resolution in the US Congress:
Please visit www.NoPlaceForDenial.com
Here is an article about the Greenway (the Armenian Weekly, to its credit, and others also published it):
http://www.wickedlocal.com/newton/archive/x357268519
I also wish to say that elected officials who are often regarded as our "friends", such as Senator Ted Kennedy, Cong.Michael Capuano, and Mayor Tom Menino, were against the project from the beginning and acted as adversaries, not friends. The Boston Globe (owned by the NY Times Company) also flat-out misreported, and withheld vital facts about the Armenian Park in an effort to sabotage the Park, and the Boston Herald (editor Rachel Cohen) was also hostile. These are facts, even if they are not generally known .
Finally, what will the wording of the Park's plaque on the Armenian genocide say? We don't know, but the word is that it will be watered down, per the request of Turks and certain - shall we say, "others." Draw your own conclusions.
I don't like ultranationalist policies no matter whose they are. I don't care which country we are talking about. Racism is one thing (like for example the attitude toward minorities in Turkey, especially Armenians). But if the Germans continued to deny that the Nazi government had done anything to the Jewish population of Europe, continued TODAY to claim that Jews were lying about genocide, if German people on the whole continued to embrace an ultrantionalistic ideology that mandated that they continue to deny and supported laws that prohibited public discussion of the Holocaust: would it be racism to have a problem with these people? No, it would not. You'd be telling the truth. The majority of Turks embrace and continue to support the ultranationalism of Ataturk and its manifestation, for example, in persecution of those Turks who do speak openly about the Armenian genocide. It's not racist to condemn that.
Sorry, but this park doesn't really excite me.
If only the Armenian organizers put more time and energy into democratizing and developing Armenia, and seeking reparations and restorative justice for the Armenian nation and people, especially the descendants of the Armenian Genocide.
After all, why should Bostonian Armenians rally around a "heritage" park (pieces of cement, glass, grass, metal, stone, trees, water, wood, etc. put together) when their own heritage -- as ancient people condemned to live far away from their occupied Western Armenian and Cilician lands -- is gradually assimilating and dying off, and when sovereign Armenia is depopulating as we speak?
It is hard for me to believe that people can lack such informed judgement [naive] to think that once the gov't has their own health care option available, that there will even be other private health care options as they are all going to be put out of businesss due to the non-competitive nature of the gov't. Then we will all have truly one option, the gov't's plan. Enter communism as you state above.
To address affordablility, today, there are full range of health care plans available to meet the needs and fit the budgets for those who desire it and are willing to pay for it. Shop around. You won't believe the variety of plans available that can be purchased. The key is "and are willing to pay for it". Yes people are not stupid, but they are cheap. People see nationalized healthcare as a cheap alternative to what is out there especially if it is provided for "free".
I for one am not willing to give some third party impersonal entity the right to decide what is best for my health. Basically to give away my liberty to chose the health care I want for a free nationalized plan.
Does anyone ever wonder why none, and I mean NONE, of our Senators or Congressmen, etc. do not have to endure this proposed health care plan? The reason is that they chose for themselves a completely different health care plan.
When ALL of our elected officials, including the president, have to use the same healthcare plan as we do, then I'll be all for it.
Let's not even discuss the gov't bail out of our financial system! [Another power grab!]. Yes, something has to be done to fix our current healthcare system. The three items I started this thread with!
I hope I gave you some provocative discussion and thought.
Keep the faith and God bless America!
I have followed Mrs. Edmonds case for years now. I can only say that I wish her well and wish there were more people like her in the government who aren't pathological narcissist and who care only about their precious "career."
Ken
http://www.LaserGuidedLoogie.com
Aram:
The Armenian community is going to collectively wait for you to do something that is going to excite it. Your right as the Boston community builds a park everything else is in flames. Perhaps you need to move to Armenia and start a revolution.
Ha Ha Ha. That was amusing. See the Zionist megaphony propagandist busted by everyone the moment it shoved its pointy little nose in. Nice work Levant, lucky you're not paid on results, just efforts. Say hi to the old war criminal Bibi won't you.
Interestingly enough, Sibel's recent testimony has not been released. We should be asking why. Anyone know the names & addresses of the people holding her testimony?
Yes, how about the days of Uncle Tom's cabin? This sentiment made me laugh a reserved sort of hrummmph as family and time and priorities have seemingly gotten in the way of everyone keeping in touch. At least in a face-to-face environment. There is nothing like getting together with old friends for a hearty laugh and a good cup of coffee. Hope you and the family are well.
Provocative discussions are conducted between informed individuals where decimation of disinformation and fear should have no place. Just to put your argument to rest, UPS and Fedex compete very well with the US postal service (a government run entity). For your information, you can also buy many private health insurance policies in France, England, Sweden, and Canada IF you want to besides the government option. So much for your disinformation and fear factor (there is more news in this world than Rush Limbaugh).
I also see that you are for improving the SSI/Medicare/Medicade. Those are government run programs the last time I checked. I would think that by the same argument you are for abolishing those programs altogether.
I would also conclude that you would be for the George Bush privatization program for Social Security (another government run program, darn!) where your retirement money should have been invested in the Stock Market or better yet given to Madoff (he looks like such a nice trustworthy guy).
While we are at it, why don't we privatize our armed forces too.
Your notion that the financial system's gov't bail out was a power grab takes the cake. Even Bush agreed that if he did not initiate the gov't bail out, there would now be no America to bless, even for God.
Is this provocative enough for you! Anonymous people, are they trustworthy?
The Heritage Park project has become unexciting because the Armenians involved in the project felt compelled to remain silent and compliant so as to not upset "the delicate process" of seeing this project to fruition. So what if the delicate process meant that the word "Genocide" was removed? So what if the delicate process meant that those hostile to justice for the Armenians were allowed to keep working behind the scenes to foil this project? So what if the delicate process meant that detractors said the Armenian Park's message had to be diluted because the Greenway allegedly has a "no memorials" policy, even though there are plenty of other memorials, including one paying tribute to the Holocaust? Does not the concept of "delicate process" sound familiar to you?
I am trying to find an old acquaintance - Sammy Chapootian. If you know him, please give him my work number: 212-251-5015. I would very much appreciate hearing from him.
Thank you so much.
Lenore Apostolu
Both David and Aram’s comments make very good points and are commendable. I write to add my thoughts to Aram’s question ‘why should Bostonian Armenians rally around a “heritage” park…’ for the same reason Jews across the globe do so, to remember their Holocaust and force the world to acknowledge it, to bolster their image and to remind the world of such injustices and prejudice. Armenians would behoove themselves to emulate the Jews, learn from them to promote one’s own history and because perhaps the majority of non-Armenians in the United States have no idea who the Armenians are or how it is that they came the United States. They best know what they are marketed by the Turkish lobby and its supporters. At least this type of memorial helps to put the word ‘Armenian’ before the American people. Yes, we do have to support the homeland too and as such once again learn from the Jews.
I’ll fill in the blank for David’s comment ‘per the request of Turks and certain - shall we say, ”others.”’ While there are many Jews who sympathize and support Armenian matters, there are more in powerful positions nationally and internationally who favor/aid the Turkish perspective. The Jews had an oft repeated expression, ‘the friend of my enemy is my enemy,’ the Armenians are entitled to repeat the same sentiment.
Let the memorial be built and to be a seed planted for the words ‘Armenian Genocide’ to grow and be remembered by more than only the Armenians.
Turkey and its foreign puppets...
Do you really think having your armenian in the team make your radio show above suspicion?
These people should be sued for using the word "Young Turks" and pay compensations to every armenian family whose ancestors died at the hand of the Young Turks.
What are the armenian-american lawyers doing?
These turkish vampires and their western ghouls are proposing a reconciliation soup with armenian bones.
Even if 5% of what Sibel Edmonds testified in her deposition in the Krikorian case is true, it is alarming as well as frightening.
Will the Rhode Island government's announced 12 day shutdowns impact any aspect of the AYF Olympics Weekend events?
there will be no relation with the turkey unless
1. recognize of 1 half million armenians which perform by turkish
2. refund 43.7 billion dollars refund for the gold of 5 tons
3. back to our lands decided by president of united state of america Mr. Wilson, to be beared to the turkish government and this is the decision of whole armenians in the world including the armenia.
Obama has no kuntags. If he had a set, he would tell the
Turks that the US runs the show. But of course, you all drank his kool aid.
Great article, however, human nature and especially the Turks do not function that way. They never have and they never will. They are opportunist pure and simple. They care about nothing and no one other then promoting their own self interest. They are a race based upon taking. Getting. Receiving. All their actions are means to those ends. Whether they have to steal for it. Lie for it. Kill for it or befriend you for it. Recognizing the horrors of their actions, especially their Armenian genocidal campaign, would mean having to "give"' recognition. "Give" an apology. Rightfully "give" back plundered wealth and lands. Worst off all, "give" away the pseudo, fabricated history and self created stereo type of a glorious history and of a master race. They are not about "GIVING".
Remember in the movie, Midnight Express, when the American Michael Hayes was in a Turkish prison/sanitarium and everyone had to walk around a column in a certain direction? Everyone had to follow the same direction. And Michael Hayes chose to walk in the other direction and this was strictly forbidden and the crazies in a Turkish prison were all shocked and angered. This to me is a perfect analogy of Turkish mentality. Turkish society. Turkish history. They will not change and God help those that follow a different course.
The only way to get true justice is for all the Armenians to unite as one. And, to collectively work toward an environment where the best "opportunity" for the Turks would be to recognize and come to terms with their crimes. If and when this happens that there is more "gain" in recognizing rather then denying the facts of the Armenian Genocide, that is when the recognition will happen also. They are pretty predictable and our actions should correlate with that in mind.
John, these are racist remarks. remember, the person who wrote the "great article" (your words) you are commenting on is Turkish. Hence, what you are saying is insulting to her as well.
Fascinating interview!
"And so he sent them to me, and it turned out to be an amazing cache of about 3,000 letters written by Jewish parents, in Germany, to their children whom they thought had been sent to safety. And some of whom were indeed saved. Some had gone to Britain or the United States, others had been sent to France, where the Germans caught up with them some years later. The letters are between the parents separated from their children. Mail did not go back and forth between Germany and these countries, so the parents wrote to a woman whom they called Tante (Aunt) Elisabeth Luz, who lived in neutral Switzerland, and she, in order to fool the censors, copied every letter and sent it out again to the children. In turn, the children wishing to write back to their parents wrote to Tante Elisabeth and again, she copied every letter and sent it out again. She was the go between and as she copied each letter, I have the originals of every single letter between the parents and the children."
Very moving!
Your interviewees are a class of their own, Khatchig. Is this the third interview in 10 days? Krikorian, Edmonds, and now Dwork. Do you have time to breathe? Keep up the good work!
Dear Razmig,
This article is dear to my heart, just because it tackles the truth, and as an Armenian-Lebanese who justs moved to the US (4 Years now)i had a hard time fitting in this environment where we dont find a lot of agoumps/churches near by, and keeping abreast with the Armenian Community is a devotion as well as a struggle.
For me, it is not an issue, as i am willing to drive an hour to go to church, however, im pretty sure you know where im getting at, is everybody willing to do so? im afraid not.
That's the problem right there, we need more close by Armenian Communities, or Social Clubs, to keep the young generation motivated.
And i am defnitely one!
My husband and I are trying hard to acheive this, but it is time consuming and the drive is exhausting every time we want to do something.
Thanks again for you efforts,
Also, if you can give us more info about the Hamazkayin's cultural festival that would be great!
Thanks again.
Nayiri S.
Thank you very much for this evocative article
It's great to have a report featuring the good work of Birthright Armenia/Depi Hayk and the Armenian Volunteer Corps. Excellent job, Adrik, Melania, Sofia. And kudos to Birthright; it is truly a worthwhile endeavor.
Why is it called basturma
My grandfather and grandmother lived in Kayseri until 1915. My grandfather was a master Basturma maker and also made soujouk, (sausage with beef and spices) as well as drying and salting large quantities of beef fillet which he transported to other cities. He made basturma after he escaped with his family to Cyprus. To throw light on the puzzle of why "pressed" as in basturma let me tell you how my grandmother started the process.
The massive fillets of beef were washed and placed in rough salt on clothes in a clean place over night. Then they were dried off, covered again in salt and this time Nene who had a special stone at least two and a half feet long and 6 or 7 inches thick, placed this heavy stone on the meat overnight. She literally pressed the meat. the morning after you could see the water or liquid, not blood, which had come out of the meat. When she was satisfied, she then salted it again and hung it up to dry wrapped in muslin or in a net cupboard in a cool draught. Pressing helped it dry quickly and prevent the meat from going off.
Soaking it in chaman was a later stage. It was dried. Then covered in chaman and dried again - at least three times.
Nene made the best basturma, soujuk and chaman.
actually, very moving
Just to bring things back into perspectiven a bit:
The Armenian Cause is not primarily about the Turkey's "recognizing" the Armenian genocide but rather the longer term goals of reparations and regaining territory. If you doubt this, ask yourself if the Armenian goal regarding Karabagh is primarily about getting Azerbaijan to "recognize" that it tried to ethnically cleanse Karabagh of its Armenians.
Can anyone at the conference help me? I am looking for the first German-language
play on the Armenian genocide published by Felix Bloch Erben Berlin 1930
DAS SCHLACHTHAUS by Peter Eberhard MAYER
I would be grateful for any help
She is such a beautiful woman, inside and out.
I commend you for the article and forgive me for saying this but it is very surprising for me, a Diasporn Armenian living in Eastern Africa because my family had to run away to survive, to read a very different and bold view from a Turk. You are now a part of history and i thank you from my heart.
Ara, what John said, albeit in harsh terms, is correct. It really is not racism because it is truth. When we talk about the white slave drivers of the past in the USA would you say it was racism because we talk about the "whites" in general terms? Of course not. I believe he is talking about the general Turk and Ayse is definitely an exception - actually from the millions of Turks i believe she is the 6th exception? (i exagerate i'm sure)
Thanks again. Reparations or not, land or not, it is in my prayers and i sincerely hope to see the Armenian Genocide, the reason my family has been living so far away from home, recognised during my life's span. I also pray for ALL Armenians to fight this together, unified and forget about the different politics, the different churches, personal differences and just, for a change, work together as ARMENIANS. Hay enk yev hbard enk!
Hello America,
We all had been brainwashed for years to "TRUST OUR GOVERNMENT" .TRUST IN GOD ONLY !!!
TRUTH CAN NOT BE ALTERED TO CREATE HISTORY, IT EITHER IS TRUTH OR BS> BLANANT LIES. Knowing the status of the "Corporate Takeover of Congress " and Special Interest control of these puppet's with money leaves one to believe that "THE REAL ENEMY " IS Not in a foreign country. "BUT WITHIN " IE>>CONGRESS & WASHINGTON.
Just think these ROYAL SERVANTS PUT A SKULL & BONES(GWB.) DIMWIT IN OVAL OFFICE.NEOCON BASTARDS ARE DESTROYING AMERICA.. The SOCIAL Cancer started from GREED. The end will be the demise of America.
America has had a spiral into A DICTATORSHIP > Socialism with Domestic/& Foreign Interest pulling the strings. NWO BULLSHIT
The "people see but do not believe " their DEMISE . The Constitution is now just a ancient document because the protectors of constitution are all bought traitors. Founding Fathers are rising out of ground in Horror..
DAR
Alik's illustrations are awesome.
Very true! Well said!
Hye, Professor Chorbajian, thanks for acquainting the Armenian leadership in Haiastan what is required of them, and, as well, to know this when they make decisions for the future of the Armenian nation and Karabagh today. Manooshag
Thank you truth seeker for setting the record straight.
A well-deserved tribute to Boyajian, and a reminder to ALL gomidehs and conscientious Armenians to continue confronting the ADL -- an organization that STILL toils to prevent justice for the Armenians!
It's long time for all Armenians on the Internet to come and join their handful of Armenian editors on Wikipedia to resist the claims of Azeri, Turkish, Kurdish, Georgian, and even Persian editors! Email me for more details (gg1982 [at] mail.ru), we can provide you with Wikipedia training, and coordinate your edits on articles most in need.
David,
Should invigorate others to complement his activist positions.
A FAIR RESPONSE TO MS AYSE.
Firstly,the Ottoman turks ,as she describes, were at the height of their power THEN!!!
But when weakened(being driven out of Eastern Europe,the Balkans)they thought to save whatever was left of that Empire was to concentrate their "rests" in Asia Minor-driving out even the Greek majority in Smyrna area and exchanged lands with latgter further West.Please spell out facts correctly.Furthermore,she must be incognizant of yet another people/country..in Western Europe that was conquered and ruled(Spain) also for over 600 years by North African Khalifates..
Then a spanish princess united their princes,got well armed and drove the conquerers out!!!
Armenians never betrayed country of their ancestors Western Armenia´s conquerers.They could not simply must up enough clout-since they were rendered totally unarmed -only a here and there a few fedayin resistance groups,pooly armed,since they ahd to smuggle in from East fdew weapons they could ,were not a match to the refurbished turkish armies-by ex-Armenian allies the Brits especially who handed over in Kars all the cache of arms to the Mustafa Kemal .This is real history.
Also ,we admit not all turks are guilty of the attempted Genocide on us,whichhas great Turkey in a spot now.People such as you should help iron out differences not throw more wood on the fire...
Finally, I have been present at recent Armenian Turkish conferences in Yerevan , when a dozen or so young turkish students fvrom universities met with ours.Few of them knew that the socalled "mountain turks" so dubbed by the turkish authorites..finally were pressed to give in and call them by their real names..K U R D S ...this bit of history is also very important,since they were,viz. kurds awarded an Autonomy after WWI, but the West reneged on their promises not pressuring R.of Turkey to honour the Treaty of Sevres, both for the Kurds for an Autonomous Kurdistan and an Independent Armenia on its East and West lands...
This will be stretched out whether you me or others like it or not untill justicde prevails .
g.p
Herzegovino
Hye, over the years we have been dedicated to our Hai Tad - steadfast in our efforts to keep our covenant with all those lost to our nation; and keeping our covenant as well, with our survivors, those who shall have lived all the days of their lives with the unforgettable vile memories of a Genocide. Manooshag
The best and most efficient means to torpedo this disastrous plan in the coming weeks is for the ARF, Heritage and HAK to put aside their differences and start holding nonstop protests in Armenia. They should march to Baghramyan Street, end Sargsyan's illegal rule and hold fresh presidential and parliamentary elections in the freest and fairest manner so that we can finally have a legitimate president and parliament that truly defends and promotes Armenian national interests. Otherwise, we are doomed!
Almost all prominent Armenian organizations in the Diaspora are also to blame for what is unfolding before our eyes. They supported this unelected president and parliament from day one, putting their personal and partisan interests ahead of Armenian statehood, democracy and rights. This support has been so unflinching and total that these organizations have threatened and imposed a gag rule on many Diaspora-based Armenians wishing to speak about certain unfavorable domestic affairs and developments in Armenia and Artsakh since 1991. Shame on all of you, but know that it is never too late to join your people and to continue inspiring them!
Turkey and the international community have once again fantastically outsmarted the Armenian Nation! They, especially Western nations, don't give a damn about genocide recognition and justice; notice the hundreds of articles on this normalization plan that have been posted online in the past six hours and compare that figure to the number of articles that have been posted articulating the legitimate demands of the Armenian Nation vis-a-vis Turkey and the genocide in the past year (there is absolutely no comparison!). They knew that the only way they could fast track the opening and recognition of the current borders for trade and energy exploitation (which means Turkey forever keeping 90% of Armenian lands and getting away with rounds of mass rape, hostility, oppression and genocide) is through an unelected, despised Armenian regime that is so willing to barter and sell state interests again and again just to stay in power and for personal/partisan gain.
For the second time this century, Switzerland is mediating negotiations that are most detrimental to the Armenian Cause. In 1923, the Treaty of Lausanne handed all of Western Armenia and Cilicia to Turkey. The new, 2009 treaty will stamp and verify the disastrous Lausanne legacy once and for all!
Fellow Armenians, please unite and save our fledgling nation (and the legitimate rights of future generations) from these shameless impostors and betrayers NOW!
So this is the latest gift the RA is offering the Turks. Good to know. Perhaps I should start learning turkish from now...
The ink on today’s “Protocols” (read: the latest excuse served up by Ankara to keep President Obama from recognizing the Armenian Genocide) isn’t even dry, and Turkey’s foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, is already walking away from his country’s commitments:
Here’s his quote, and the full citation:
"Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said, however, that opening the border was out of the question for now. "A longer process is required for that," he was quoted by Turkey's NTV television station as saying Monday."
-- Turkey, Armenia agree to establish diplomatic ties
Associated Press, August 31, 2009
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hMIVhRL1IZsbsjcPwt34qFbwomhgD9AE4EO80
Beyond Davutoglu’s clearly stated intention not to actually deliver his country’s prime “deliverable” in anything remotely resembling a timely manner, these secretly negotiated Protocols represent a surrender of the rights of the Armenian nation, the truth of the Armenian Genocide, and the security of the Armenian Republic:
Surrender of Rights
-- Armenia agrees to “territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers” and to "mutual recognition of the existing border,” in a manner that prejudices against the realization of the Armenian nation’s legitimate claim to land and other reparations for the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1923.
Surrender of Truth
-- Armenia agrees to “refrain from pursuing any policy incompatible with the spirit of good neighborly relations,” despite the clear implication that Turkey and its allies will interpret this commitment to mean the abandonment of the Republic of Armenia’s support for the international recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
-- Armenia agrees to “implement a dialogue on the historical dimension,” knowing that Turkey will misuse this agreement to portray the Armenian government as itself casting doubt on the clearly established historical record of the Armenian Genocide, effectively undermining progress toward international recognition of this crime.
Surrender of Security
-- Armenia agrees to “non-intervention in internal affairs,” despite the fact that the Armenian state has a humanitarian interest in the welfare of the remaining Armenian community in Turkey and a compelling security interest in Turkey abandoning its genocide denial and other anti-Armenian policies.
Read this part of the Protocol:
"Reconfirming their commitment, in their bilateral and international relations, to respect and ensure respect for the principles equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers."
That part allows Turkey to not open the border with Armenia since clearly Armenia does not recognize Azerbaijan's "territorial integrity" over Artsakh/Karabagh. That is, in the opinion of Turkey and even part of the international community, Armenia is violating Azerbaijan's territorial integrity and sovereignty.
But let me ask people a question. Do you really want the border to open and let Turkish money,influence, and people flood over the border to Armenia's detriment? If the answer to that is No, then we should be happy that this Protocol may not work out.
The Armenia of today - let's be honest - is in no shape to allow a completely open border with Turkey. Turkey will most likely eat Armenia alive and spit out the bones.
I would like to state my opinion of Armenia's leaders and Parliament here, but it would involves words that would not be appropriate for young readers.
In some sense, we all deserve this for our neglect and for letting our people be put under the thumbs of corrupt leaders, just as Russia let itself be ruined by the nut Stalin. We are no different. As a nation, we may not have what it takes. I wish it were not so, but it may be so. The question is, are the people of our ancient nation going to allow it to be sold out? If not, how are they going to prevent it?
"Ninety four years ago, one of the great atrocities of the 20th century began. Each year, we pause to remember the 1.5 million Armenians who were subsequently massacred or marched to their death.."
How the heck that crazy court in California determined that it was Obama's policy to oppose the recognition of the Armenian genocide from that is beyond me.
Politics in this country has become plain crazy.
Truth Seeker is right to say that the posting in my name was not written by me, but will say that I have to agree with many of the things this person who is posting. I can say that I don't believe that non-Armenians should be allowed to adopt from Armenia at all. I say this as there really is not a shortage of ethnic Armenians wanting to adopt, though they in most cases are not willing to pay bribes. There is also a large number of natives who are interested in adopting and have the first right to do so following someone who has blood relations with the child, but can not do so in many cases since the red-tape they encounter prevents such adoptions. All I can say is that by Armenian law that was enacted following my investigation in 2002, one of the parents must be of Armenian decent. As for the special needs children, this too is also a scam as there are many "special needs" children that are not special needs at all and are only deemed as such for non-Armenians to adopt. Also there was mention of any children that are in children homes by parents who love them and can't afford to feed them, but these children are not orphans. In Armenian in fact there are very few real orphans. Bottom line is that if Jolie and Pitt do adopt from Armenia, then you can be sure that some money under the table exchanged hands.
Dear Levon
Thank you for your cogent and competently laid out commentary citing the most significant elements of the Nagorno-Karabagh negotiations. Over the past several weeks the Diasporan press has covered what appears to be a one-sided unfolding of events - to the detriment of the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabagh. We, in the Diaspora have noted the geopolitical shift tilting toward Turkey. The loss of the historic territories back to Azerbaijan would be the first step in a renewal of pan-Turkism. I applaud your linear argument detailing the flaws in the current negotiations and support you in this critical analysis and outreach agenda.
There's a book by Hagop H Asadourian called "The Smoldering Generation" that elaborates on the dilution of the Armenian culture. It's not a happy read. If I can say something positive about the future of the diaspora and the people involved that work tirelessly to keep it alive, it would be a quote by Sam Adams (context is different but idea is the same): "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."
Mountains of salt are being poured on our wounds. What are we doing about it?
Yes, Jason did make some grammatical errors which makes me think he is not a native speaker of English. They are not glaringly obvious, but they are there nonetheless.
I am an Armenian who voted for Obama, and I felt like my concerns got thrown in the trash.
Ankara and Baku have coordinated there Steps and know the rule of games very well. These two absolute Anti-Armenian protocols are designed and announced to destabilize Armenia… There is no “Armenian Government” but a group of untalented people working hand in hand with oligarchs for there own interests..
I have no opinion on the content of the show, but I have a huge problem with the show's title. I realize that "young Turk" can mean more than the C.U.P., but I cannot ignore the fact that it was the so-called Young Turks who committed the Armenian genocide. Having an Armenian on the show is nice, but it doesn't do anything about the name.
Armenia is pushed by the U.S. to establish relations with Turkey, and forget the massacre of 1.5 million Armenians by Turks in 1915 that kept the two countries in a hostile mold. The U.S. strives for a foothold
of influence in the region after its debacle in Georgia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and after the failure of the Ukrainian bid to join the West. But unless Turkey recognize and apologize for the massacre of 1915, it would be high treason for any Armenian leader to wipe out Armenian history and abandon its people in Nagorno-Karabakh to please the U.S.
The Nagorno-Karabakh is essentially the Kosovo of Azerbaijan, which Armenia took control from Azerbaijan to protect its majority of Armenian inhabitants - as the U.S. and its allies took military control of Kosovo, gave it to the majority Albanians, and recognized it as independent state. But Turkey wants to
take back Nagorno-Karabakh from Armenia and return to Azerbaijan, because the Azeris are Moslems -as are the Turks, while the Armenians are Christians. And here is how the double standards of Turkey and the U.S. play out in the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict. And if the Kosovo's Moslems deserved a foreign invasion to obtain their independence from Christian Serbia, so the Christian Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh deserve their independence from Moslem Azerbaijan.
I predict that the Turkey-Armenian pact will fail because the Armenian opposition and the Armenian diaspora will not allow their government to sell out their history and their brothers in Nagorno-Karabakh to protect
the U.S. interest in Turkey, and Turkey's interest in Moslem Azerbaijan.
Sure Azerbaijan has a lot of oil, and the U.S. forced its oil companies to
built a long oil pipeline through Turkey - rather than a short one to the Black Sea - so Turkey can be rewarded with transit fees for its loyalty to the U.S. Now the U.S. tries to heap up more favors to its ally Turkey by pushing hard Armenia to sweep under the rug its genocidal history by the Turks, and recognize Turkey unconditionally - without even an apology.
And if that happens, then Turkey will use its new status to push Armenia
to cede back Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan! This is certainly a
sellout of Armenian history, and a betrayal of Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh
that will have to go through a convulsion of future efforts and schemes by the
U.S. and Turkey to be returned to Azerbaijan.
Wake up Armenia! The diplomatic Trojan Horse of the U.S. and Turkey has
a Pandora's Box in its belly. Nikos Retsos, retired professor
Bravo to Profressor Chorbajian. Keep up the good work. I am very upset about the turn that the current negotions are taking between Turkey & Armenia. We will lose in the end. Thank you for your efforts.
Where is our iron ladle?
Poor Robert Kocharian. Wasn't he the one who said that " For us, universal values such as justice, morality and peace cannot be disputed and it is for this reason that we pursue the restoration of historical truth. " He must be fleeing the country as we speak...
A "historical commission"? Wasn't such a thing called the "Nuremberg Trials" in the case of the Holocaust? How about we save the people of Turkey and Armenia from the financial and hysterical burden of such a commission by publishing it's final report right now, with the following quote as it's sole content: "The Armenian Genocide is a historical fact, despite the efforts of some to minimize its scope and deny its occurrence." -Jerry Costello
Some of you are fools!
If only the Armenians weren't so naive during the Armenian Genocide and not held the ideology that the Turks would not dare murder them. Or that they were somehow friends. Nothing was further from the truth. They not only murdered the Armenians in mass BUT THE TURKS TODAY SPEND MILLIONS ON IT"S DENIAL! So the genocide in its own way continues.
As for Cenk, I can care less that this "Young Turk" has had a change of heart and actually admits the reality of the Armenian Genocide. (How charming.) Everyone would be equally naive to think that he is somehow good for the Armenians. There is no way that a Turk with a show called "The young Turks" should be on any national TV show. You are all fools to not condemn this!
To greywoods: Forgive the Armenians for having a distaste for the people that destroyed their lives, ancient culture, homeland and today, not only deny it but have no remorse what so ever.
Call MSNBC & STOP THIS!
Thank you very much for this touching article.
I for one knew Obama would not follow through his promises which led me not to vote for him.. nor the other party.. I did not see any validity of his words.. he is a great speaker..no doubt about that.. and he sure fooled the Armenians..
It is a shame to know that the fierce, strong and independent US of A is acting like a puppet under Turkey's claws..
Long live Armenia and its people.
G
There is a report that "Buildings inhabited by Christians have been marked with insignias in several districts of Istanbul. The labeling of the buildings are clearly done in concert with increasing harassment of the Christian inhabitants." This is reported at the Gates of Vienna site that has a long history of being reliable. The url is http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/09/marked-for-further-action.html
If this roadmap/protocol nonsense follows through, Sarkisian and his cronies can guarantee one less visitor to Armenia next summer. I refuse to support the Sarkisian administrations reckless rampage of indiscriminate concessions to arch foes and thier veiled mouthpieces.
No surrender; no defeat; no capitulation.
Baykar Minchev Verch.
In the next few months, if not years, we will see how for every issue that is beneficial to Armenians will be pronounced as "Anti-Protocolical" by the turks. In the same way that they played the "Armenia and Turkey Normalization of Relations" card, which almost destroyed the Genocide Recognition processes in the West.
The best way for Armenians to pursue diplomatic relations with Turkey is to not pursue any such relations at all. When nations are at perpetual war with each other, diplomacy is a waste of time.
Um, great. So what should Armenians do about these proposed agreements? At the end of the day, who really cares about what the ADL has to say? Shouldn't forces in the Armenian diaspora put pressure on the Sarkisian administration to step away from this process of establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey? We know the protocols are not in Armenia's favor, that was obvious months ago. Now what?
Hye, By George! Excellent 'dissection' of Protocols... I refer to your paragraph 5, (which Turkey shall also use in the dispute for Artsakh): "Condemn all forms of terrorism, violence and extremism" - and your question: " which country asked this be included and for what purpose?" Yes, worthy of much further examination. An example, recently and over years, in the Bush/Turkey approach to Kurds - they labeled Kurds as 'terrorists' which reeks of precisely this wording - thus an opening for Turks to pursue their policy to eliminate Kurds as they did Armenians - Turkey for only Turks. Turkish foreign policy in action! Kurds are as freedom fighters against tyranny of the Turks... Another Turkish ploy today, appropriate to the moment, Turks now choose that they are 'getting along with Kurds'.... Morally, shall all Turkish transgressions against humanity shall be forgotten, forgiven, even erased from history? The list of all these Turkish 'ploys' - exist, always in last possible moment. Historically, Turkey, signs agreements (over the last nearly 100 years from WWI) but chooses not to abide by any. Latest, the 'road map'... is prime example of Turkish (Ottoman) foreign policy. Turks chose their own 'labels' to justify their own policies - labelled their own victims - Christian Armenians - in order to commit a Genocide of a people, a nation, a culture. Manooshag
Dikranagertzi:
If the roadmap/protocol follows through, there will be no Armenia to visit.
Well the US is doing a lot of things but its not acting like a puppet. Its acting in its own self-interest. Who would the administration rather get angry, the Turkish Government or few hundred thousand Armenians living here in the US ? Nobody owes us anything. Countries are not obligated to speak up for what is right or wrong. Countries only act in their own self-interest. If those interests match with what is right they will take that position.
Candidates say all sorts of things and then they get into office and suddenly its not so easy to simply say things.
Frankly not sure what would change had Obama officially stated the Genocide happened.
The ARF has rightly called for the resignation of Foreign Minister Nalbandian over the "roadmap" that was announced a few months ago. And various writers in the Armenian Weekly have rightly condemned that "roadmap."
But it is now clear that the many pro-Turkish pre-conditions imposed on Armenia by the "protocols" announced this week are much worse than the "roadmap."
Therefore, why hasn't the ARF also called for the man who is most responsible for the "protocols," namely President Sargsian, to resign? It has long been clear that Sargsian is in office only because the elections were rigged. This is even more reason for Sargsian to step down, is it not?
What is the ARF waiting for? I respectfully ask that the ARF answer this question.
Every Armenian should read the book at least once. I read the book three times. Did Margaret or her mother go back to Amasia, Turkey for a visit.
It is interesting that in the Associated Press report for this issue Abe Foxman’s name is introduced. How does he fit into the formula, and if that shouldn’t catch attention!? Abe Foxman opposes Armenian interests as has been clearly demonstrated in his earlier actions that have shown greater sympathy and concern toward Turkey than Armenia. I have to wonder if there are other unseen players involved in this dialogue/scheme.
I can think of no time when Abe Foxman or his cohorts have done anything that put Armenian interests first.
I definitely understand that each country act upon its own interest.. However, US puts his nose in everything yet picks and chooses what they will support and what they will not support. If it was not going to support the Armenian cause, then why go through with it? they show the world how strong they are yet we all know that is not the case. If they can't stand firm and without reservations for democracy, freedom of speech, humanity, justice, and righteousness, the true fundamentals of this country and what it represents, then they have no validity in my eyes. Again, every president ever stepped on the podium of this great country promised in one way or another to protect the Armenian people and represent justice once and for all but all failed once they put foot in the White House. Why do we repeat the same mistakes over and over? Because we don't learn from it. Believing in candidates that promise what is right yet not getting that promise violets the true self and trust in all of us.. I am frustrated not because US does not recognize the Armenian cause, Genocide and survival of the country and people, but I am frustrated because Armenians have not recognized that relying on others to support them is not going to happen. Supporting each other and standing united and fighting together is what will take us out of the murky waters and get us what we want and need.
That is all.
G
P.S. Obama recognizing the Armenian Genocide would have showed Turkey and the rest of the world that US is true advocate of what is just, and what is right. In addition, it would have shown that they are not here to kneel to every demand that Turkey put in front of them regardless how much money and riches are poured into the bellies of the govt officials.
Someone above was offended that ANCA was possibly criticized. It is this kind of childish feelings that hampers fruitful work. If Sibel Edmonds fight is about politics and cover-up then why indeed we haven't seen ANCA or AAA demand those representatives who immeasurably benefit from grass-roots Armenian campaigs (unlike the illicit Turkish activities, unmasked by Ms. Edmonds) to deliver on their promises to help the Armenian communities in the US ?
This is a criminal issue implicating highest levels of US officialdom working not just against Armenians but against American interests as well, for heavens sake !!
Why not criticize ANCA for sleeping on the job? that would be a very healthy exercise.
I believe the Armenian government has made a realistic assessment of Armenia's situation and is taking the right course. It seems to be operating on the assumption that a less isolated Armenia fosters a stronger economy and more trade. In the quid pro quo of world discourse a economically stronger and better integrated Armenia may gain a stronger voice. When Armenia is economically stronger and builds a viable home for future generations then it will be better positioned to seek justice for past generations.
I was thinking along those same lines Marty when I first read the AP release. Since when did the disingenuous Abe Foxman become an authority worth quoting on any issue Armenian or Turkish especially considering his well publicized bias's??!?! In my opinion, this was a classic case of trying to target a select group of unwary readers to fall in line with Foxman's sentiments...
Hye David, I agree with your 'COMMENTS', of course. Would a Der Petrossian be next? His presidency was not outstanding for fledgling Armenia which was worthy of honesty and security of our first leader (as our patriots in 1918-1920) And, when you ask what the ARF is waiting for - does this apply to the ARF in Armenia - or ARF in the diaspora - IN THE ARENA... Today, in following the Sibel Edmonds Brad interview, this thought occurred to me: for all the years that the U.S. State Department and US administrations and Congress had generously offered monies to a Turkey... monies that shall have been from the pockets of American taxpayers. For a Turkey which claims to be the 'best ally' of the United States of America. Evidently, this 'best ally' of USA has been, for years, a leader amongst nations that excel at stealing U.S. government secrets... Well, with such deceit and 'friends' like this who needs enemies? Also, since WWI (and probably before) Turkey has a history, (were it examined) of signing agreements... knowing full well that they shall not abide these agreements (still their Ottoman thinking). Today, one hundred (100) years since a Turkey shall have become a 'democracy' - yet abuses of Turkish citizens still prevails. Before the world, the bully leaderships of Turkey continue to distort truths, distort alliances, distort whenever, and even whomever... even with a Turkey's 'best ally' - United States of America. What's next?? Manooshag
Dear Professor Chorbajian:
This was an excellent assessment and your recommendations are practical, insightful and frankly well informed. I hope someone in Yerevan heeds this advice.
I recall listening to you speak in NY a few years back at the Armenians and the Left Conference. We came down from Canada for those very interesting and informative sessions.
You raised a very important question in your opening paragraphs above that I've pondered over for years: Why have governments in Yerevan consistently acted to ensure unrepentant Turkey that Armenia has no claims on that nation, acting like we are the guilty parties trying to reassure Turkey of our civilized intentions??? In all honesty, I see it as a callous reminder of some Armenians who are still enslaved by ottoman masters and unwilling or unable to unshackle the chains of appeasement.
At this point in time I'm not expecting much from our compatriots in Armenia and I'm really doubting that anyone in Yerevan has ever had a firm grasp on reality let alone a BATNA...
An ecellent update on the remarkable "Karabagh Knor" (Zed Publishers) of a few years ago; hopefully helping Yerevan to wake up to the fact that it is now a state and must act like one, with historic responsibiliteis towards the entire Armenian people in its long dark and difficult struggle against Turkey. Unlike the Berlin Congress and all the others where there was no Armenian state voice and led to the tragic destruction of our people, culture and land now we have a state that is at least nominally an equal member of the international political system. What a pity it does not appear to be aware of it or realsie its rights and responsibilities! In most respects it acts like a virtual or fictitious state, especially in its dealings with Turkey and Azerbaijan.
Merhaba arkadaşlar.
Ben tartışma konusu olan yazılardan, birinin yazarıyım.
Ermeni arkadaşlarımın şunu bilmesini isterim ki; Ermeni, süryani, Keldani, Alevi, Yezidi... Bunların soykırıma ve tehcire tabi tutulması; Anadolu'yu kör, bacakksız ve kolsuz bırakmıştır.
Ama olay, 1.Dünya, Emperyalist Paylaşım Savaşı'nın sonucuydu. Bunda, bütün dünyanın payı vardı.
Almanlar, Ruslar, Fransızlar ve İngilizler de buna seyirci kalarak soykırıma ortak olmadılar mı? Ermenilerden boşalan yerlerde koloniler kurmaya çalışmadılar mı? Antakya'yı Türklere verip, ermenileri kendi kaderlerine terk etmediler mi?
Evet, Osmanlı İmparatorluğu Kürt, Türk ve Arapları kullanarak, soykırıma alet etti.
Ama soykırım, Osmanlı imparatorluğu ile Avrupa Emperyalizminin, Dünyayı paylaşma planlarının sonucuydu.
Kuşkularınızı anlıyorum. Ama inanın, yeryüzünde hala güzel düşünen insanlar var...
Benimle iletişime geçmek isteyeyen ERMENİ DOSTLARIM için e-mail adresim:
gulisorakkum@hotmail.com
The long term future of the Armenian culture lies with Armenia. Those members of the diaspora whose primary identification is Armenian can best serve that identity by living in Armenia and working to build the economy and vitality of that country.
Unless, there is a constant outflow from Armenia to feed the diaspora it will inevitably dissipate. That is, the long term viability of the diaspora is in part dependent on the shortfall of Armenia as a viable state.
Our family, is an example of how a diasporan family may transition. We have had 5 generations in the USA. Two of them genocide survivors. Our identification is American. Our future welfare is tied to the USA. Our commitment is to the USA. We see Armenian as our cultural lineage not our raison d'etre. Of course, some may not transition as our family, others may be faster or others more protracted. Few individuals will retain an Armenia identity beyond 4-6 generations.
The future of Armenia rests with the people living in Armenia. They must be relieved of the stranglehold that restricts its integration into the world's economic system, that restricts access to markets for its goods and it needs the economic lift of being an energy transfer avenue. Armenia needs people from the diaspora who have a strong Armenia identity to return and use their talents to build that country.
I have some Armenian ancestry and it is sad to see that Armenia and Turkey still don't get along. I was talking to my great uncle and he told me that his parents immigrated to the U.S. in 1906 from Turkey. He said the Turkish people helped the Armenians, many hid them. Turkey lost a lot of people in WWI. Armenia has committed crimes against humanities such as the Kholojay Massacre against the Azeri's. The U.S. has a long history of genocides and crimes against humanity, slavery, racism which is still a big problem, Native American extermination, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japanese internment. The important thing for Turkey and Armenia to recognize is that genocides and massacres are wrong, history has many examples of it, and every nation has done horrible things. Armenia should restore relations with Turkey and Azerbaijan. Politics seem to ruin everything. Both nations should make an effort for peace.
Hye, appears Sibel Edmonds issue is 'omitted' from the media of the United States of America (in the United States of America)! When/how did we lose our freedoms of our American press? Which leads me to also think, what more have Americans been losing? To whom? Howsomever, now Edmonds material appears in languages of world's press in various languages... and for inclusion in the internet... Manooshag
Please don't include the convoluted Turkish version... Historically, a Turkey agrees to agreements - then the agreement is not the agreement that was agreed to, as Turks then change the rules after the agreement is agreed to - ploy after ploy , time and time again, for these 100 years. When shall the civilized nations of the world stop accepting any of the dishonesty put forth by all the Turkish leaderships - who, sadly, are still functioning in the Ottoman mode. Manooshag
mentalityl in their relations with the world...
Thank you for your insight Gary, and for sharing your experience. Indeed, the future of our existence does lay in Armenia. And I could not agree with you more- Armenia needs more people from the diaspora...but how many of us are willing to move? The number of Armenians from the diaspora who repatriate is far too low and I don't see that trend changing any time soon...
The Armenian Cause will die if the Armenian parliament, owned and operated by Serge Sargsian, ratifies these protocols.
All the good work that the ARF has ever worked on will die.
The "protocols" sign away virtually all Armenian rights to ever make demands of Turkey. The homeland is gone forever.
The genocide issue will die since even the Armenian government itself is willing to let the issue languish in a historical commission composed partly of Turkish genocide deniers.
Again, you can kiss Hye Tahd goodbye if these totally one-sided protocols pass.
I can't say it too many times: Hye Tahd is about to die. Have no doubt about that.
To those who do not watch the show, or those who have a single definition for the term "young turks": you need to educate yourselves before you go on looking foolish. The term means more than just the specific group of progressives and can mean any progressive who seeks power within an institution. The term has been used to describe Senators within the US, and all sorts of people. The young turks pushed for and accomplished a lot of huge reforms in the O.E. that continue to shape the region today. And it was not all of the young turks, by any insane stretch of the imagination, that perpetrated the killings. It would be like saying that you cannot call yourself a democrat because most slave owners were southern democrats. It is absurd. Also, WATCH THE SHOW! THESE ARE SOME OF THE MOST CULTURALLY TOLERANT PPL OUT THERE!!
"Mirk" also means fruit, it depends how it's written... with a "kim" or a "ke" in armenian...
In honor of my late brother-in-law Der Vartan Kassabian, my sister , daughter and niece were very happy to have helped the AYF committee this past weekend. We were at the track and field event all day helping at the food tent and may I tell you , we have never had so much fun. This Armenian community was very welcoming and heart-warming to us. When my sister, Yerestzgeen Pauline, asked us to help we were not sure of what we could do to help. We found out that whatever needed to be done, we just did it. Everyone was very nice to us and just want to thank everyone for a wonderful day at the AYF Olympics.
Mr. Yegparian, thank you for you put the text in a very simplified words so that everyone can understand the disaster Armenians will face, even the two deceived leaders of Armenia when God forbids they test the result of the danger after is too late then they might or not face Armenian people who lost everything to admit that "You told us so"!! This is very hypothethical issue I wonder what they are thinking!! they live in illusion and putting over 10 million of Armenians faith at risk, they why we can't stop before these dangerous two protocols are signed, forgive me if I say I son't understand why all Armenians can't prevent these two people playing with our destiny. We don't want other genocide happens then who we turn to as the whole world will tell us thats what you wanted... Where our wise leaders, representatives to urge these two who have politically don't understand the dangerous qonsequences!!!!! As you said and I have said it in my facebook as many others likewise " IT IS UBSURD THAT THESE TWO UNWISE PRESIDENT, SERJ SARGSIAN & HIS TOP AID FOREGN MINISTER, EDWARD NALBANDIAN TO SPEAK OR REPRESENT ALL ARMENIANS' Why our Armenian top relegious leaders don't interfere to give advice to these naieve leaders... while we struggle to stop it I clearly see that the criminal Turkish & Azerbaijani leader look so relax with full smile it their face can't wait to grab the opportunity which may come very easy to start to suppress us and another genocide start allover again. We as ordinary people see the transperance of their cunning minds underneath and why our supposedly two leaders cannot obviiously see that? Or have they been bribed with humangous cheques that make them deny and betray their own nation and their own Armenian people. I beg to everone be it a leader or not to express their resistence and get on feet together to stop tese dirty political game played by our enemy and superpowers, world leaders are behind them.....
Really? "Shut it down"? Is that the best you can do? Is this a result of the brain drain caused by all those executed bright bulbs of your culture on April 24, 1915?
The anger Armenians feel is completely understandable and justified, and the fact that this is an unresolved hot-potato issue, weighing heavily on their cultural identity. The Armenian Genocide is the Armenian Diaspora's childhood trauma, unresolved and incubated, and anyone of even the slightest bit of a moral compass can see the error of stifling its memory or blocking a way forward.
However If you have oil, or guns, or a pathway to Iraq, you get to call the shots. A rapidly assimilating Diaspora and a landlocked corrupt Armenia hinged on Russian interests is going to be overlooked in the scope of the Greater Game. Every million spent to educate and influence the United States Government to do the right thing is met by TENS of MILLIONS from Turkey, a somewhat Ally of the USA. Heck, the United States can't even AFFIRM ITS OWN HISTORY (Morgenthau, Near East Relief Society, etc) within its own congress without having a scimitar dangled over its head. This is the most powerful country in the world. Some of the most powerful testimonies about the events of 1915 are in the vaults of the US government, and yet there are constant attempts to rewrite that history by foreign powers.
And they almost nearly succeed. The only real tool the Truth has is the constant reminder, the media attention, the activism that links 1915 to present day events and seeks to eradicate Genocide forever. Please consider the following: how many Armenians ARE THERE REALLY in MAINSTREAM MEDIA? How many are championing your cause or even bringing attention to this issue? On the contrary, support those in media (especially your own) and keep stirring the controversy. Make people notice. Keep the pressure on.
Put some resources into demonstrating WHY this is important to all of us now. All of us meaning the planet, not just Yerevan and Glendale.
the above was meant for the Young Turks article, BTW. Not the Jerusalem one.
Sasounian: Azerbaijan, Turkey inadvertently protect Armenian's National Interests............................................................................................................................................................ Please don't blame me. I am not prejudice But I do not believe Turks I know Turks very well I live with them I know their culture Neither the so called " Road Map - protocol" or dropping precondion on karabakh Nor Criticizing Turkish leaders by Azeri officials or "artificial" silence of talkative Aliyev, can convince us to trust them? We are sure this is a premediated Turk-Azeri political game to deceive Armenians and Armenian Government (or maybe West. I don't know? God help us...
Armenian government of the last 12 years is a genius. It could make one enemy into two. Azerbaujan who was a semi-cousin in the Soviet era became a foe. Turkey (the susscessor of the Ottoman Empire), who had sinned against Armenians (and Greeks and Arabs and Kurds) for many times, is a foe for about five centuries, that is, from its birthdate. Georgian Government is a semi-foe, semi-cousin, and a semi-bastard (even not a full bastard). Iran which is a truly nobel nation is under the pressure of US falsified politics, and rabbit Armenian authorities are afraid to declare Iran their true cousins. Instead, Armenians are trying to swing in between the USA, Iran and Turkey (which is equal to political homosexuality). Even Russians -- traditional allies do not trust Armenian Government. Isn't this situation geniusly unique, and kocharyan-sarksyan clique proturkish, anti-humanist and contra-Armenian?
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Bottom Line, "Road Map - Protocol - Opening Border - Dropping Precondition" of Karabakh issue OR Criticizing Turkish Leaders by some Azeri officials and artificial silence of talkative Aliyev,
All are part of premeditated Turlk-Azeri political game to deceive Armenian Government and Armenian people And Unfortunately when Yerevan Leaders realize their political troubles, it will be too late...
Bravo, Garen! It could have not been better said. I sign under every word in this article.
I am saying NO to the protocols Mr. Markarian, and I am with You.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
I must add few more words: I just returned from Hayastan after spending a month there. I was absent 7 years. You see wealth on the streets of Yerevan, there are more Jeeps than students in the university. Most bought on the money robbed from other defensless Armenian citizens are as poor as you can get. Villagers live off the land, who thank Lord still provides a good harvest every year. Intellectuals are mostly gone, old generation which had values and was properly educated is dying out. Mob runs the country. Now let me ask you, what other solution to the "protocols" which defacto robbing Armenia of any chance ever to reconcile with the mass-murder commited by the Turks, other than a revolution and mass protest like we have seen in 1990th? Only this time we will have to face not the Russian tanks on Republican Square, but guns pointed at us by our brothers. Russians did shoot. But maybe Armenians will not shoot their brothers. If army wont obey orders to shot civilians, then we have a chance to get rid of the gangsters who been running our country.
BRavo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Super!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not even Armenian, But I have supported the Armenian Genocide Resolution since I got involved with the Cyprus situation. Its high time the motherlands stop ignoring the wish and aspirations of their supporters in America. This demonstration was so important because the Armenian GOv. is now doing what the cowardly sold out Greek and CYprus Gov. that is reach an accomodation with Turkey that will eventually destroy both countries. The Obamma admin. told the Greek Community, in April, to withhold their demands and resolutions against Turkey because Armenia and Turkey are reaching a historic accomodation and the Greek issues would have to be buried as well as to not antagonize the Turks. The Greek GOv. has been playing the Greek Americans like suckers. I am glad to see the Armenian Americans aint going to take this bullshit from their own.
I am going to make calls to all my friends and associates in New York to be at the demonstration. I hope you do not mind having a Group of Greeks supporting you as well... I hope this effort on behalf of the Armenians will also spill over to the Greek Americans and get them to start taking action against the traitors and agents in the Greek GOv. who are doing the work of Turkey.
JJS
Seattle, Wash.
Thank you Ayse for the excellent article.
I am also Greek and I applaud the Armenian-American activists who are demonstrating against the so-called "soccer diplomacy" of the Turks and their allies. If only the Greek-American orgs had done the same back in 1999 when the corrupt Greek gov't engaged in so-called "earthquake diplomacy" by demonstrating against Greek gov't diplomatic posts in USA, then maybe the Cyprus situation and the violations of the Greek Aegean Sea by the Turkish military would not be as bad as it is today, where the Greek gov't shamelessly bows its heads to Turkey and sells out the Cyprus Cause to Turks.
I also say BRAVO!!! to the Armenian-Americans
I also ask if it would be bad manners to bring Greek flags to the demonstration, if we want to show solidarity can we come and join? Because regardless we want to respect each others wishes as good allies and friends.
Thanks
--Sarkaflya, Brooklyn, NY
What a great loss for all Armenians, Jack embodied all that is good in the pursuit of scholarship and excellence.
Samvel Jeshmaridian, PhD writes: 'Azerbaujan who was a semi-cousin in the Soviet era became a foe.'
Azerbairjan practiced aggression towards the Armenians, it was the Russian military that squelched it and kept Azerbaijan as a Soviet state in line. I think, today, Azerbaijan is more anti-Armenian than Turkey.
Please correct me if I'm wrong for any of the above...
What a great piece that capture his personality so well. Thank you Tom for honoring my grandfather. Best, Tamar Kanarian
I'm speechless. Very well written article.
Dear Ayse (if I may), every time I read your columns, I wonder what can be done so that the millions of Turks listen to you?
Beautiful poetry! Thank you for sharing these with your readers. I will definitely check out the Columnbia U. and Ashod Press publications.
I enjoyed reading this article. Mr. Hagopian truly has "poetry in [his]heart" and it comes across the pages as he writes. Thanks for the vicarious journey.
It is beyond belief for me to imagine that any Greek and Armenian officials could possibly believe
anything that the murderous and criminal government of Turkey has to say. The Armenian government should have seen as an example the failure of Greece in its "friendship" with Turkey.
The Turks have made no concessions on anything (responsibility for genocide and atrocities,
Cyprus, etc..) The Turkish government continues its aggression against Greece and occupation
against Cyprus while continuing its violent campaign against the last remnants of the Greek
community in Turkey. The concessions are all made by Greece which is a surrender.
Greek officials of internationalist leanings stupidly pursue policies of appeasement against
criminal Turkish political and military leaders. The result has been humiliation and failure.
Armenian officials are likely following the same path of failure as Greece.
So long as Turkey maintains the support of unscrupulous American, European, and Israeli
government officials murder and racism will remain the official policies of Turkey. Greeks
and Armenians have as much chance in reaching an accomodation with Kemalist Turkey
as Jews would have with the Third Reich.
Theodore G. Karakostas
Congratulations to the Providence A.Y.F. Chapter for putting on an outstanding Olympics weekend and to all the athletes whom participated in the athletic games. Unfortunately, we could not attend the Sunday night dance & the picnic on Monday since my wife Angele was not feeling well. Thanks again Providence. Keep up the good work. Stephen & Angele Dulgarian
Imagine, responses from three Greeks! Their thoughts are appreciated and I think they could behoove the Greek/Armenian issues with letters to the editors of their local newspapers to educate the general American public of these matters and how it is that most Greeks and Armenians have to come be born in the United States. More importantly it counteracts the positive spin of Turkey's ally factor. No discredit to that fact but the truth is known and needs to be said, if we don't keep it alive there's no reason for the next generation to do it. I call it being 'Jewy' and I state that with a respectful and complimentary sense, the Jews have accomplished much because they remain highly vocal and relentless in their causes and everyone can and should learn from that.
Enclosed is my Letter to the Editor as printed in the Lowell Sun Newspaper on Sat. Sept. 12, 2009. Obama must recognize Genocide: It was a great disappointment for Armenian-Americans when President Obama, who pledged five times before becoming president that what happened to the Armenian people between 1915-1923 by the Turkish Government was clearly a Genocide, whom failed to repeat those words. On April 24th, just before returning from Turkey in early April, he refused to use the "G" word on the well documented Armenian Genocide. Therefore, just as other past presidents who promised to recognize the Armenian Genocide, he used the Armenian People to get their votes. My parents lost their families under Turkish rule. What troubles me is I have to wonder what kind of a Democracy we are living in, when the truth is being put aside just because Turkey is a NATO ally. Does anyone doubt there was a Jewish Genocide? It is a great dissapointment that our foreign policy is being dictated by a foreign power. Stephen T. Dulgarian - Chelmsford, MA.
Congratulations to all the AYF members and alumni who made the AYF Olympics in Providence so special. While I was unfortunately unable to attend, I heard the weekend games were memorable. Thank you to host chapter for their dedication, hard work and sacrifice. Sincerely, Raffi Hamparian
Dear Ayse, as usual my hat's off to you. What a bright, intelligent, inquisitive, EDUCATED, and most of all COURAGEOUS journalist! The Ottoman Empire was losing the war (WWI) and lots of countries and lands that it was ruling. In its desperation to hold on to the lands most adjacent to it, ie Armenian lands, it massacred their native population and annexed their lands. Turks and the whole world must come to know this unbelievable injustice dealt to my people.
The key to her dropping the charges were in light of Sibel Edward's testamony of corrupt members of Congress. This former FBI translator speaks out on all this corruption on her website. Go there and check all this out. The trail of corruption in long and deep and is credible as she has testified under oath to the Dept. of Justice's Inspector General.
This is a little more than a pipe dream, im afraid. Armenia can barely hold on to the small territories we have. You're talking about regaining historical Greater Armenia and repopulating it with Armenians, yet Armenia is rapidly losing people due to emigration and low birth rate. Who's going to settle . Diasporans in California and elsewhere are going to move to Armenia to enjoy the lower living standards there?
I cannot understand how both Serge Sargsyan and Edward Nalbandyan can sign the protocols supposedly to normalyze relations with Turkey when Turkey has never as yet recognized the one and a half millions of Armenians systematic annihilation from 1915 through 1923. Turkey is long overdue to recognize the Armenian Genocide and start giving reparations to Armenians and Armenia. After all Germany is still giving reparations of money to the survivors of the Haulocaust that happened in 1945. Turkey ows us our lands back. Turkey by the systematic annihilation of 1.5 Million Armenians took control over our Armenian lands that was Armenia for over 7 thousand years. Today's Eastern part of Turkey was Armenian Highlands and it belongs to the heirs of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide and to Armenia. There is absolutely no dispute about that.
Furthermore, by signing the protocols we must not acknowledge the integrity of the Turkish borders as fait-a-complit, as Turkey ows us reparations and the return of our lands. By Signing the protocols Turkey wants their border's integrity to be satisfied, while completely ignoring the self determination of the rights of Nagorno-Karapagh/Artsakh. Artsakh belongs to the Armenian people and the Armenian people already won the war for almost 20 years now. To begin with those lands were Armenian lands for thousands of years while only in 1921 Stalin gave it away to appease and please Attaturk along with our own Nakhichevan. If and when Artsakh's self determination is jeopardized and taken away by the enemy, the existing Armenian lands will follow. Armenia's sovereignty will be jeopardized if Artsakh goes, therefore the right for Artsakh's recognition by the world's powerful nations to the rights of self determination of the people of Nagorno-Karapagh/Artsakh is directly linked with the survival of Armenia.
We must remind Turkey then whether Armenia should question the validity of the self determination of the Turkish people in Cyprus.
Anahid
Remember me?
Love your article. My parents met at the 1947 Olympics in New York and eloped 7 weeks later....10 months later I was born.
Now I live in a NYC apt and see Randall's Island outside my kitchen window.
Love to you and all your family.
Noni
Mr. John Soudas, thank you for your just support and the other two Greek gentlemans as well with their important and enlightening posts. My own grandmother, grandfather with my great grand parents, uncles, aunts, their children and also my mother's extensive families were all annihilated in Western Armenia along with the 1.5 Million Armenians from 1915-1923 by the then Turkish government headed by Talaat Pasha. Today Turkey by getting their full support from the US is as if want to open their illegally closed borders with Armenia with a set of deadly pre-conditions against the sovereignty of Armenia and Nagorno-Karapagh's self determination of the Armenian people. Our Armenian highlands must be returned to the heirs of the Armenian people as reparations of the systematic annihilation and the Genocide of the Armenian people. There must not be any signatures signed by the Armenian Government otherwise they will undoutedly answer big time to the coming generations of the Armenian people. If Nagorno-Karapagh goes so will Armenia. These so called politikaly inclined negotiations with Turkey's set and unjustifiable pre-conditions on the protocols must never be signed by Armenia. We want Turkey to open their borders and have amicable neighbourly relations with Armenia; but not with the dear price of politically diminishing Armenia and Nagorno-Karapagh from the world's map. What the Turks started in 1915 and systematically annihilated 1.5 Armenians in Western Armenia and literally stole Armenian lands which today they call it Eastern Turkey, now Turkey is continuing the Genocide politically and crudly setting pre-conditions on the protocols that are basically calls for the death of the Armenian nation. To both Armenia and Nagorno-Karapakh. They still are and continuously want Armenia to be wiped-off the world's map to satisfy their dreams of Pan-Turkism.
If Turkey along with the made up Azerbaijan nation which existed only less than 100 years ignore the self-determination of the people of Nagorno-Karapagh even after we won the war 18 years ago; then Armenia must question the viability of the self-determination and the rights of the Turkish people in Cyprus.
Dear Ayse.
Systemic Therapy has shown that denial preserves from a devastating truth. Governments use denial to protect their citizen from becoming crazy when they realize what they have done. But facing the reality is the only way to peace.
Love
Chiara Hayganush
The ARF must call for Serge Sargsyan's removal as President. He was illegally put into office and is destroying the Armenian nation.
What a beautiful tribute to a great priest and man. You will be missed.
I highly commend ANCA to honor Sen. Robert Menendez to receive the ANCA-ER Freedom Award. Sen. Menendez has been a champion of speaking and acting out the truth about the Armenian Genocide and speaking on behalf of the self-determination of the Armenians in Artsakh/Nagorno-Karapakh. Sen. Menendez clearly knows the sad history of the 1.5 Million Armenians who were mercilessly slaughtered from 1915 thru 1923 by the hands of the then Ottoman Turkey headed by Talaat Pasha. He well knows that the Armenian Highlands belong to the heirs of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide that was stolen by Turkey until today. He also knows that the precious Armenian lands of Nagorno-Karapakh/Artsakh and Nakhichevan belonged to the Armenian people when Stalin in 1921 simply gave it away to Attaturk to please and appease him; even though those lands belonged to the Armenian people for thousands of years hence. Our men of arms also fought and won the war in Nagorno-Karapakh/Artsakh in 1991. But apart from his knowledge, Sen. Menendez is an advocate of truth and justice. My hat's off to the humanity and the humility of Sen. Robert Menendez. His Freedom Award indeed will be well deserved.
Whit out a reasonable doubt we ( the Turks ) did commit the most hideous crime possible against the Armenians. I came to this conclusion quite recently, because of my education system and the set of propaganda I was exposed to. I was raised to see Armenians as traitorous backstabbers. Once I started to see Armenians, not as Armenians but as humans my hole basis for seeing Armenians as an enemy changed and I started to see their frustrations and anger.
However, I feel no responsibility for the actions of my great grandfather who was a very prominent figure in the city of Nigde in 1915 and even though I can not be a hundred percent sure on this he probably had a hand in massacring and deporting the Armenians of Nigde.I can not change what happened no matter how much I desire to.
There is a very slow transformation taking place in Turkey. People are starting to question the governments policy of denying the Armenian Genocide. I wouldn't be surprised if in 15 to 20 years the Republic of Turkey would recognize the Armenian Genocide.
Finally, for their to be lasting peace in the region, the validity of current borders must be accepted. Eastern Anatolia or western Armenia, which ever you prefer, has been controlled by Turks since 26 August 1071. I cannot imagine ever parting from it and let's not forget every parcel of today's Turkey belonged to someone else before the Turks migrated en mass. I have no desire going back to central Asia. The Turks and Azeries on the other hand should accept Nagorno-Karabakh / Artsakh as being Armenian, because what is the alternative? War, suffering and genocide.
Whatever one thinks of Turkey's leaders, they seem to be genuinely Turkish, and they desire to cut the best deal for Turkey.
One wishes that Armenia's leaders were the same. Come to think of it, Armenia's leaders like Sargsian and Nalbandian ARE the same: they are trying to cut a deal that is best for Turkey too.
You really have to admire Sargsian for throwing away all Armenian claims against Turkey and for letting the joint historical commission decide for itself what really happened in 1915, don't you? I mean, the guy is an Armenian Jesus Christ. When Turkey slaps him in the face, he turns the other cheek. The best part is, Armenians are bound to inherit the Earth. How so? Well, the Bible says that the weak shall inherit the Earth, and we Armenians are WEAK to let Serge get away it the protocols.
This, then, is the role we have been given by God as the First Christian Nation on Earth: National Suicide.
BY TED KENEDY'S DEATH WE LOOSE A GREAT FRIEND
Protests in the US and diaspora must be the mirror of widespread protests in Erevan that harken back to 1988 Karabagh protests. Otherwise, we are lending support to the inaccurate State Department argument that the genocide issue is only a diaspora issue, and not a national security issue for Armenia. The articles in our papers do not reflect that the anyone beyond the handful of ARF supporters in Erevan are protesting the protocols.
Hey Garen,
Although I couldn't disagree with you more on everything you've said above, I fully support your right to express your opinions. I'm deeply disturbed that you don't support the rights of others to express their opinions.
I would caution you to be very careful for what you wish. If free speech of any kind is muzzled, someday your free speech will be muzzled.
I suggest you read , and reread at least once a month, Martin Niemöller's famous poem, which in one of it's varients goes as follows:
-------------------------------------------------------------
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I did not speak out;
As I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I did not speak out;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
As I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
As I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
------------------------------------------------------------
Any assault on any of our freedoms, is ultimately an assault on all of our freedoms. Never forget that!
And by the way, there's nothing wrong with profiits. Without profits, you wouldn't have a job and you certainly wouldn't have the leisure to be writing letters to editors.
The protocols are deplorable, destructive, degrading and unacceptable. The protocols will end all our hopes, aspirations and rights to get territorial, financial moral restitution. In addition these will force return Artsakh and the rest of the liberated territories back to Azerbaijan, and the Azerbaijanis like their brothers the Turks this time around will surely wipe out all the Armenians from Artsakh like they did in Nakhichevan.
Bedros H. Kojian, M.D.
Orange, CA
Always remember that all the answers are in history. Machiavelli said in The Prince " The end justifies the means" The means in which Turkey is trying to appear to establish diplomatic unity with Armenia is a lie in order for Turkey to gain access into the European Union. According to these protocols one of the stipulations is that Turkey wants to establish a historical commission with the Armenian government for what? We all know that the genocide happened. This is another attempt by the Turkish government to deny the genocide. They tried it a few years ago with that joke TARC ( Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Committee) Turkey wants to keep all of the lands it stole from Armenia during the genocide Moush Erzourum, Bitlis. Furthermore Turkey is going to keep the economic blockade on Armenia to help Azerbaijian.
I think the ARF is doing the right thing by being a watch dog on these protocols. if you don't have a watch dog then problems can arise. I don't blame my people for being leary of the Turkish government's attempts to deny history and continue to oppress our people.
I would like to see more reporting done about what the Armenian people in Armenia think about both the Armenian and Turkish protocols. What can be done to help Armenia's political and economic infrastructure. I would like to see more Armenians in the Diaspora be involved in Armenian politics.
In solidarity,
The above interview is a breath of fresh air.
The Armenian Cause is going to die a sure death, and very soon, if these Protocols are passed. And it appears that they WILL be passed. I am not sure if even the Diaspora and its political partes truly realize that.
The Armenian president and his parliament were all elected under circumstances of fraudulent elections, banned candidates, and media repression and intimidation.
This means that the leadership of Armenia is illegtimate and does not have the legal or moralauthority to negotiate the Protocols or ratify them.
It is not acceptable to say "But this is the only government we have." If the government is illegitimate, it must go, and its decisions must be declared null and void.
It is incumbent upon Armenian political parties and the Armenian people to state clearly that the Protocols are unacceptable and that any attempt by the Armenian authorities to ratify them is null and void. I refer especially to the ARF. If this is done, the major powers and Turkey will have good reason to realize that passage of the Protocols is useless.
The fact that a "law" or bill is passed, no matter where or under what circumstances, does not mean that the law is legitimate and must be obeyed. The Ottoman parliament in the 1915 era passed all sorts of laws that took property and life away from Ottoman Armenian citizens. Do we now look at those laws and say "Oh, yes, Armenians had to obey the law and be death-marched into the desert because it was illegal to escape." ? Of course we don't.
Am I saying that the present Armenian government is like the Ottoman government of 1915 and that Armenian "laws" do not have to be obeyed? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
Lots of countries pass repressive and illegitimate laws that people are clearly not going to obey, nor should they. Did George Washington obey the laws and edicts of King George of England? Of course not.
The illegitimacy of "president" Sargsian and his phony "parliament" must be stated now, and it must be stated clearly. Opposition parties must declare the Protocols to be traitorous, null, and void.
The Protocols are as illegtimate as any repressive laws passed by the Ottoman Parliament. Indeed, the Ottoman parliament may have been more "democratic" then the present Armenian government.
The Armenian opposition must state that the Protocols will be declared null and void by future governments. They must also state that there will be severe criminal sanctions imposed at a later date on anyone who tries to legitimize the Protocols.
If not, then the Armenian Cause is dead. And don't think that the Armenian authorities will not sell out Artsakh too. Anyone that will sell out the Armenian Cause would sell out Artsakh.
The people in Armenia need to be as galvanized by this as much as the Diaspora seems to be. The Armenian government is not going to listen to the Diaspora. There is a better chance its going to listen to the will of the people who it actually represents.
The Diaspora I think is realizing what a marginal voice they have in terms of what the Armenian state decides to do. For past several years and especially during the kocharian era we thought that Yerevan actually represented our interests. That has proven to be false. (The ARF for all its opposition, went along with most recent election results, which were a fraud, until it had no choice but resign).
The Karabagh War was not started or won because people in Watertown, LA or Paris were outraged. So one has to wonder why Opera Square in Yerevan is not filled with protesters ? Does the Diaspora care about this topic more then the people living there ?
We spend all our efforts hear to get the US government to formally recognize the Genocide and the Armenian government undermines it all with these protocols. What Yerevan says and does is infinitely more important then anything that happens in Washington.
The ARF is partly to blame. They needed to address the daily concerns of the Armenian public more, and build a stronger and broader following rather then just making public stands regarding genocide recognition and territorial integrity. Had they done that they would have more of a following , more power, more influence. All that time, 10 + years wasted... now someone else is running the show and making the decisions. The Window of opportunity is closing and the ARF which prides itself in being "grass roots" has shown what little headway they have achieved with the people who matter most.
These protocols, if ratified, are going to ruin decades of work. The Diaspora is not the role of George Washington, but more like Robert E. Lee. The problem is the people in Armenia don't seem to see the need to be outraged.
Harut has done it again. He is always on top of things. He has written a wonderful column about the appointment of Judge Aris Babikian as a citizenship judge in Ontario, Canada. It is an appointment Babikian has been deemed to be highly qualified for and we congratulate him. We are fortunate to have the caliber of journalistic reporting Sassunian brings to us in his Armenian Weekly columns to inform and educate us on Armenian issues. Congratualtions also to the Turkish newspaper who backed the appointment.
It is time for political action that sends a loud and clear message to the President of Armenia and its Parliament. Starting in Armenia and all over the world where there are Armenian communities, Armenians should hold demonstrations in massive numbers on an ongoing basis until the world hears us very clearly and the Armenian Government heeds to the demands of the Majority of Armenians worldwide, that our legitimate rights cannot be trampled on and forgotten.
Here in the United States we should show up in front of the Armenian Republic's embassy in Washington DC as well as all and every Armenian Consulate in American cities coast to coast.
Shame on us if we don't make our voices and determination heard loud and clear.
I would thank firstly to Antranik,I met him lastg June for a few brief moments on Toumanyan str.knew him from N.J. long ago.A very honourable pleasant youngman.So is David B. and all others who stand up and defend our ONLY and mian Cause/Case.No doubt about that.Few , however come up with other alternatives.We all know how wily-cunning Ottoman inherited turkish Diplomacy is.We all also know at heart that they are -have been -supported for over 50 yrs by the Anglo-Am clan,so to speak.Latter´s interests are there in that region,no,not now but from near acentury ago...when -to begin with- after Ottoman Empire capitulated in the West frontgs-Balkans in 1918´s they very cleverly concentrated all their forces-directed by a leader come to power Mustafa Ataturk(Kemal) WHO MUSTERED UP ALL they had left plus some ammunitions arms gifted to them by the Brits(see Prof. R.G.Hovanissian 4 volume Republic of Armenia) wherein he describdes of a huge cache of armament was turnewd over to Kemal-Turky,their just a few months old enemy-instead of to their faithful allies the Armenians -who fought along General Allenby and many other European -American allies against the German-Ottoman axis.This is BETRAYAL AT ITS BEST,even worse than having an enemy that you see-know...these people are after theri interests .@Our battleships cannot climb mount Ararat,one English Lord hs been known to say...Oh yeah? how come then that at the same time-same period-see prof. R.G.H book stipulated with photos of Brfitish commanding officers in Baku , their headquarters, how did they get there then? for the smell of something? indeed.They did make it though-if not then now by entgering from window.a saying they get thrown out by the oncoming red armies then..then lately after collpase of latter through window..
Best advice we have had.I was present April 9th at 17 Rue Bleu,Armenian centre in Paris prof Yves Ternon, a supporter of our cause in France ...ended his discourse saying"Parlement a Parlement".In short we should seek our allies elsewhere in small, middle states and never rely on aforementioned who have betrayed us sevral times over. Do not be ashamed to utter your voices.After all even in diplomacy there is a limit to how much people can lie...
Go find another(s) partners supporters elsewhere.Getting back to present situation of the Protocols and Armenia Armenians on the verge of an abyss...I think we must act similar to the turks and co.that is to say .While we reinforce our forces-power economy et all inwardly...we must show to the great Turkey and Co. that we are complient thus:By the by I wrote an article in Hay Gyank weekl,L.A. in 1997 entitled"Nagornyi Karabagh after Lisbon" Then as now all except us voted agaisnt us 49 strong voes vis a vis our one single LTP´s...
WE can begin with appeasingb great Turkey yes I always dub them so, both cynically but also righteously they are the strongest in the region thanks to allies.mainly the U.S. of course.Get the NK issue resolved by declaring NK as FREE TRADE ZONE and change stance from Independent republic to PRINCIPALITY OF NAGORNYI KARABAGH" SIMILAR TO Andorra..in ARmenian,(Gharabaghi Melikutyun) Let 3/4 azeri delegates into present Nk Parliament and allow refugees from Only Jabrail and Fizouli to return ,as agisnt our refugees to Shahumian.Andorra was a bone of contentgion for two centuries -you read corectly 200 yrs between France and Spain,even a war.Then they agreed to run the small area jointly, declaring it as FREE Trade Zone and as a Principlaity. Its president is prfes. of France and vice is Archbishop from Seu Dúrgel (cataluña)Spain.People there mainly catalans-pretty much like in NK, (Armenians) and some French.It has prosepred , levying very small import export customs duties ..Free business and tourism has loomed and no war ....peace is prevailing there ...
This might very well suit the situation .Great Turkey will not loose face-most important for the REgional Gendarm..the allies will be delighted that peace have come upon the area lertting the piplines function orderly without fear of war there and most important gvreat Turkey will tghen be pressured by these SAME ALLIES...see the Armenians complied Nk is not Independent.Do not worry that they will claim more lands ..
We have b een famed as patient people.fact is we are over-patient we CAN WAIT SOME MORE,when other factors pop up for great Turkey....Kurdish (ex mountain turks? eh? Mr. Turkey) you finally gave in stopped callinmg them so..gunned own a thousand villages of their but you could not throw 16 million of them into sea? time will come when these poor people will also at the very lest get some Autonomy ,then only our cause can COME UP AGAIN AND BY THEN HOPEFULLY THE CRAZY SITUATION OF OIL HUNGER,plus Armenian Diaspora mustering up its own National Investment trust fund-pleasde visit my site ...www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org REST IS THERE.THANKS FOR READING ME
HAMA HAIGAGANIN SIRO
gaytzag palandjian
RootArmo, you make important points. Let's remember how the press is controlled in Armenia and that those outside major cities are less informed of what is going on under their noses. Many protesters have been maimed and killed for being vocal. Add to that the notion that natives who are employed by Soros and other Western-based initiatives all parrot the same NATO-friendly tune. He who pays the piper gets to call the tune. These voices we hear from do not represent the Armenian sentiment of Armenia!
RootArmo's comment is not quite right. In fact, there is a large outrage in Armenia and Arzakh population. But why we don't see any such uprising? because the authority has done a good job in controlling the media. See the following article by Dr. Armen Ayvazyan (showing the statistics):
http://blog.ararat-center.org/?p=283
The reason for this successful media control was implemented as a result of March 2008 election upheavals. The reason that ARF was less active in the last 2 years is again attributed to this "fake" opposition party staging of the election drama. They were planned by Der Petrosyan and Kojaryan-Sargsyan elite groups (hand in hand) in order to kill all other grass-root true opposition movements in Armenia.
So, as you can see the West has done a good job in controlling the masses in Armenia via their own governments (Der Petrosyan, Kojaryan and now Sargsyan).
Moreover, we Armenians usually think that ARF is the oldest Armenian party, but we fail to realize that ARF leaders were not mature enough to be able to govern any city let alone a country. Yes, they are good fighters and military leaders, and they have a wellformed National agenda, but they did not have enough experience in governing. To my memory, ARF has just learned how to stand for the Armenian people in just the last couple of years, which to me is a good news (perhaps a desperate voice from Heaven).
But blaming the Armenian intellectuals and especially the people in Armenia is not quite right. Look at the last 20 years of history. In 1988, during the Karabakh movement, which was organized by a few true-intellectuals in Yerevan, as soon as it gained an enormous populous, here comes a Levon Der Petrosyan from nowhere and takes the helm. In the following few years, we heard a propaganda machine of HHSh discriminating the true Armenian intellectuals, followed by controlling and maneuvering the people, in effect killing our "azgayin hokin". This propaganda machine has its effects until these days, after 20 years now.
I believe that currently ARF is the only party that can move Armenian towards the right direction, if only they put more of their resources in improving the “Armenian mshagute” (i.e. pure-Armenian intellectuals, Armenian scientists, Armenian teachers, etc.) and the economy of the people in Armenia. And believe me, they have all the resources, because they form a majority in Diaspora, as well as inside Armenia (i.e. if we include Arzakh).
It is also important to modify the ARF intergovernmental infrastructure. ARF organizational structure does not have a good election mechanism. For example, we the people do not elect who the district ARF representative will be, it is elected behind closed doors. Such mechanisms must be changed to introduce more control by the people. It is a shame that in 1988, we did not even know who Mr. Hrair Maroukhian was until we heard that he was claimed a persona-non-grata by Levon Der Petrosyan. It is a shame that ARF organizational structure has not changed even after 20 years. Otherwise, it would have been the most efficient ruling party for Armenia (and Armenians). Another good idea is for ARF to form a coalition government with grass root parties in Armenia. We have seen such advances only this year, for example with Henchaks and Ramgavars, but they need to be more active in this direction. There are a dozen more grass-root parties in Armenia (excluding Republican and HHSh major parties).
I totally agree with Mr Aghjayan.
What I don't understand is where is ANCA's campaign to forcefully pressure the Armenian Government? Where is Armenia's Foreign Ministry's email address, which should be flooded by The Whole Diaspora Armenian emails, thereby literally shutting it down. Same should be done with The prime ministers and the President's emails. I am surprised that this very effective method that was used for the Genocide recognition, is not being utilized. May be ANCA has an answer?
If anything, The United States, Switzerland, Germany and The United Kingdom have done more harm to the nation of Armenia in the last 10 years than the entire Turkish nation. Oh! Did I forget to mention Israel?
Kasbarian does an excellent job outlining and explaining the pitfalls and dangers in the unacceptable protocols, as well as the dismal state of Armenian foreign policy. But, in doing so, he tries his best to excuse the ARF of having any role and responsibility in formulating and implementing the disastrous, undemocratic policies of various (unelected) Armenian administrations in the past 11 years. Notice his choice of words: "our own government...our authorities...The authorities, not the ARF, should be the ones worried about proprieties at this stage."
I, therefore, strongly agree with the conclusions reached in today's "Chorrord Ishkhanutyun":“Chorrord Ishkhanutyun” wonders why the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) is persisting with its street protests after the authorities made clear that the Turkish-Armenian protocols can not be amended before being signed. “This is not the only oddity,” says the paper. “The thing is that Dashnaktsutyun is now busy not so much dealing with those protocols as promoting its own opposition posture … The impression is such that Dashnaktsutyun is simply using the Turkish-Armenian protocols to make people forget its decade-long proximity to the government trough.”
I am sorry to disagree with you Tim Nolan, but your arguments are flat wrong. You are assuming that the Khaytarag Protocols are not so much dangerous that the political parties can use it for a game. If this is your assumption, then obviously you may jump to your conclusion, but I am afraid the Protocols are more dangerous than most people assume. Moreover, given this fact, no Armenian will care about ARF advertising their image, in fact, such heroism is what Armenians need right now.
I am not an ARF member, and I confess that I indeed disliked them during the Cold War period, because back then they acted like KGP puppets, but after 1988 Karabakh movement and the declaration of Independence, they entirely changed their face. Maybe not enough, but they did change their face.
What I believe is that they have not done so much so fast, partly because of the rigidity of their governing infrastructure on one hand, and some historic scandals on the other hand, and as a result of these, their extreme caution with regard to responsibility to the last bastion of the Armenian land.
But I agree with you, Tim, that ARF needs to integrate with true grass-root organizations inside Armenia, as well as, outside, be it Չորորդ Իշխանութիւն or Հինգերորդ Իշխանութիւն, but certainly not as Իշխանութիւն, rather popular organizations. We don’t want any more Իշխանութիւն-s than what we already have now.
Open Letter To: Armenian Foreign Minister Mr. Edvard Nalbandyan
Dear Mr. Nalbandyan
You asked “what kind of changes can Armenian foreign ministry suggest to the already agreed upon protocols” Sir, Your wrong policy brought Armenian nation into this crisis. Maybe You are right it’s hard and late to change protocols as Armenian said (TKADZE LIZEL) In this case you have only one choice for Saving Face. Accept Failure and Resign with Honor Immediately. Otherwise we are sure that sooner or later the Armenian people will force you to resign.
How can I agree to a historical commission to analyze the existence of the Armenian Genocide when my own mother witnessed my grandfather's (Sarkis') head smashed between 2 stones by Turks during the Armenian Genocide
Sir any high school student can understand that this so-called “Road Map” or “Protocols” in their present shape are not in our national interests. Because, 1. Armenians shall no longer hold any ancestral territotial claims against Turkey by recognizing the Turkish border. 2. The “protocol” endangers the International (including US) recognition of the Armenian Genocide. 3. Karabakh’s self-determination and independence are not safeguarded.
Once again, if you disregard the above Armenian principal interests, We Armenian will neither support nor trust you. We hope you will reconsider the logics.
Respectfully
Ishkhan Babajanian MD USA Sept. 18, 2009
Hayko,
This is a demand to restore Armenia's ability for self-sufficiency. With such self-sufficiency, Armenia ceases to become a place where living is a daily challenge for the non-oligarchs. Please note I am not calling for regaining Greater Armenia which generally encompasses what is know as Sevres/Wilsonian Armenia perhaps even extending to the Mediterranean.
If clear demands and preparations are not made now, if and when conditions exist where those demands might in part or in whole materialize, another interest having though this through will fill that vacuum.
If and when the conditions exist when this land could be returned to Armenian sovereignty, it will not be returned on a silver platter. It will include about a million people, some who have an affinity to Armenians, other who don’t. Most likely its jails will be emptied of criminals with more shipped in, for most likely Turkey reluctantly returned this land. The inclusion of the land area noted in the map will not result in simply a larger Armenia with the the same problems, but an Armenia, because it both has native access to the sea and has at least a minimum of genocide reparations, has the ability to prosper on its own terms.
Although highly desirable, not a single Armenian from LA need return.
Regards
This is another excellent article of P. Balakian. Citations and deep analogies are so exciting for fans like me of science and analytical thought. Being positive (avoiding "this is not" and using "this is so and so") and accurately describe what he and we all feel without any prejudice.
My fellow Armeniabns,
All of us have real future prpoperty interest in Western Armenia which has been confirmed by Wilsonian Arbitration Award. The current Armenian Goverment is not the asignee of these, real estate, future intersets in Western Armenia. We have a leagal basis to open a case against Armenian Government in US Federal Courts and demand for permanent injunction against those who are willing to sign so called prorocals or ratify them. I am not clear what are these so called protocals? Whether they have been signed or not? if signed exactly by whom and under what capacity? If they are really protocals then they cannot be subject to ratification by parliment. If they are already signed then threr is treaty already betwen Turkey and Armenia.
Armenian in diaspora must take actions rather than just talking.
papkenhartunian@gmail.com
This reaction, or more like, lack of any positive comments about the relations taking a positive turn is disturbing but not surprising. Is it not Armenians who have been clamoring for opening of the borders? It seems diaspora prefers an Armenia condemned to economic and political bacwaters rather than see a normalization of relationsions between the neigboring countries where Armenia would have the most to benefit. All this so that toch of hate can be carried and hope of a Greater Armenia be kept alive? Was that not how a great disaster was put in motion in the first place?
"They care about nothing and no one other then promoting their own self interest. They are a race based upon taking. Getting. Receiving. All their actions are means to those ends. Whether they have to steal for it. Lie for it. Kill for it or befriend you for it."
Well, it is a good thing these entries are moderated! Is it not ironic that this commenter considers Turks as racist? Is it really possible to talk about truth and facts and realities to such people?
The author of the Bluek Book himself had called the book a product of mostly propaganda. Turks and British were at each others throats at the time of its original publication! War did not end for another two years! How did Toynbee manage to conduct a serious research on the topic, access material and witnesses and documents in the middle of the Great War? He did not. In 1916, many Eastern Vilayets were invaded by Armenianans and Russians, Muslim populations decimated. Can we have a little reality check here?
"it is why I dream of current-day Armenia, but also of the village in present-day Turkey where my grandfather was born and then forcefully displaced; and lastly, it is why I will not accept anything short of a proper apology and just restitution"
Lalai,
My grandfather's family, together with the rest of the remaingn town people were killed by Armenians when they invaded Bitlis during 1916. Same happened in many other towns and villages around the region at the time. Who will apologize for them?
Modern day Turkey is committing a "civilized" Genocide.
The Turks actions and words speak LOUD and clear that they are out to crush the Armenian people one way or another. First they impose an illegal blockade to isolate the country, and force its citizens to migrate, then they brainwash the Armenian government that it is its own people (ie Artshakh and Diaspora) that is forcing Turkey to enforce the blockade, so therefore Armenia should sever ties with its Diaspora and give back Karabagh. (Remember back during the Genocide, they told us that if we don't turn in our guns they will kill us, so our people went and bought guns to turn in, which in turn sealed their guilt!.. and they were killed). Not only do they not show any remorse for the Genocide committed by their ancestors or for having stolen our lands, they are in fact continuing their Genocide of the Armenians by their unbelievalby humiliating, bold and vulgar diplomacies. Why do we still think we can be friends with these people is beyond me. They are hellbent on finishing us off. They are not people we can ever reason with. How can you reason with racist thugs, liers and cheaters. We have been their ideal victims with our Christian values of turning the other cheek. But God did not say be stupid.
Dear government of Armenia,
By signing these protocols you will surrender all of the Diasporan Armenians historical rights and lands, and in return the Turkish borders are going to stay closed until you also deliver them Kharapagh, our land that we took rightfully back during a war started by Azerbaijan... Even then I would be shocked if they don't come up with new tricks to finish us off...
Dear Armenia, if it was not for our fighters back then, there would be no Armenia today. Do not betray your own people. Do not fall into the wolf's trap. Do not sign the protocols.
Turkey is your enemy, not the Diaspora. Do not get fooled. Turks are turks. They do not change. If they had become civilized and decent they would have acknowledged the Genocide and started paying back reparations like Germany has. But our luck, we ended up with the worst and basest nation in the world as our enemy.
Agreed Tsolin and I must add that the same applies to Edward Nalbandyan.
An excellent analysis.
Good words, however is anything beyond just words being done in Hayastan?
there needs to be a clear message even by force if need be to sargsyan and his crew that if these protocols are ratified the second they put the pen down they will be in a world of trouble from the world wide Armenian population!
In the end, they won't sign it! I am convinced... at least I hope they won't!!!
I remember him from syracuse,n.y. and went to armenia together with his wife a wonderful priest will always remember him sebouh bogosian
By his phony elections alone, Sargsyan has already hurt the Armenian nation by forfeiting the 60 Million dollars earmarked from the millenium project. It reminds me of the Armenian who gave Talaat the names of the intellectuals who were arrested and later tortured and murdered. Now Sargsyan is giving Erdogan the Armenian lands, justice and history for what? For a supposed open border? Possibly for money? Is this corrupt man the best the Armenians can do? Turks are opportunistic parihas. They always have been and they always will be. Armenians do not need to compromise for anyone.
ARMENIANS ONLY NEED TO UNITE IN ONE CAUSE: TO UPHOLD TRUTH AND SECURE PROSPERITY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL ARMENIANS LIVING TODAY. AND FOR THE MASS MURDER OF OUR GRAND PARENTS AND THE THEFT OF OUR LANDS, CULTURE AND HERITAGE THAT WAS DESTROYED IN WHOLE BY THE TURKS. PERIOD!
I'm sorry Mr. Aghjayan but we have not been "waging a war for justice" over 90 years. I wish this was the case. We have been waging a war for recognition. There's a difference. Recognition is not a form of justice. Recognition is not even a prerequisite for demanding and achieving justice (NYLife Insurance settlement etc.) Our collective right to demand justice is not contingent on Turkeys or Israels or Americas official recognition of the Armenian genocide.
As far as I'm concerned this day of so called protocol prancing was in the making and we (the diaspora) didn't see it coming. And if we did, our leaders (from all parties) abdicated their responsibilities.
We probably wouldn't find ourselves in this mess if our leaders did in fact properly galvanize our community to begin waging a serious war for justice a long time ago. The important question here is what have our legal team of reparation experts been doing over the past 90 years????? Twiddling their thumbs or trying to tame the tantrums of defeatist Yerevan officials who to this day shamelessly shudder at the mention of demanding reparations from Turkey.
We've had 90 plus years to put together a negotiated set of REPARATION PROTOCOLS that are mutually agreeable between Yerevan and the Diaspora. A basic set of tentative reparation protocols that all parties and factions find generally agreeable should have been achievable over a 90 year span as a starting point don't you think? This would have kept the good folks in Yerevan on their toes and more importantly clued in and preoccupied with more sensible and collectively agreeable measures of dealing with matters. That would have been a really handy 2 page document only a year ago at worst. Instead we have little to show for but last minute international law conferences on the Armenian genocide and short lived protests.
Have our communities really been waging a war for justice to the best of our abilities over the last 90 plus years or could our diaspora leaders have been a little more vigilant in preparing us for this inevitable disaster we find ourselves in today?
1 - Azeris attacked the Armenian citizens of Karabagh (Artsakh)
2 - Azeris declared war...
3 - Azeris lost their war
4 - Karabagh Armenians WON the war! (Tiny Karabagh won against Azerbaijan).
A - Asian hordes from the mountains of Asia conquered, took the Armenian
lands and culture, as planned, to be the Turks own...
B - Turkey did not declare a war against the Armenian nation...
c - Turkey perpetrated a GENOCIDE to eliminate all traces of the Armenians...
Armenians won the Azeri war.
Turkish warriors just slaughtered a Christian nation to take their lands...
Hence, all the Genocides since, in the 20th century and into the 21st century
all emanated from the warrior Turks. Turks today, still in the Ottoman mentality, can lay claim to all the Genocides since 1915 as the Turkish 'gift' to the world. All the slaughter, rapes, kidnappings, terrorizing, can all be laid to the door of the Turks, today. All the Genocides, recognized and denied, all come to rest at the door of the Turk.
Manooshg
I agree with Christian Garbis that the opposition parties "have yet to step up to the plate."
Look, Armenia's Parliament and President were elected fraudulently through ballot box stuffing, media represssion and intimidation, threats, violence, and all sorts of wrongdoing that go back years.
They have no right, therefore, to negotiate or ratify such a weighty and controversial (to say the least) document as the Protocols from Hell.
Step 1: Members of the opposition parties must declare that the government is illegal and demand its resignation
Step 2: Members of the opposition must resign from the government
Step 3: The opposition must declare that the Protocols were negotiated by an illegal government and violate present international law (as explained by various persons, including Ara Papian).
Step 4: The opposition must declare that if the Protocols are "ratified," they will forever be regarded as illegal and DOA ("Dead-on-Arrival") and will never have the force of law even if the present government and Turkey claim otherwise.
A "law", if you wish the dignify the Protocols from Hell by that name, that does not have the clear INFORMED support of the people - and this one clearly does not - is a law that will be ratified under a dark cloud and that Armenians will not accept and that the international community knows is DOA. The Protocols process will fall apart if the outcry by the opposition is united and strong.
Baron Oskanian was a respected and courageous Foreign Minister during his time in office. I think he would make an even better RA President. He is right on the mark in his analysis above. The Turkish government will continue playing dumb about 1915 and those of us that demand justice will be ignored and labeled nationalists. But since when has the legitimate and lawful pursuit of justice been misconstrued as the agenda of nationalists?
I agree with most of Mr Oskanian statements, especially the following statement "We must have trust in our own resources, in our people, in our country, in our future".
Scientifically, I don't really understand why we need to open borders at all. We are at war with the Turks on the east and the west, and during a war people gather their resources and close the gates of the fortress. If we think of the country, Armenia (plus Artsakh), as a fortress. This fortress is a more than enough self contained ecosystem fortress (see BIOSPHERES for an idea of self-contained ecosystems). We have abundance of water, energy resources are taken care of by Metzamor plant and the route from Iran. Wheat and food can be cultivated inside these lands, especially near Artsakh. We had good brains to build MIG fighters for Russians during Soviet times, why cannot we develop the best weapons in the world inside Armenia? Technologically, the best computer/software people are the Armenians scattered all over the world. We have a strong cultural and scientific maturity at the global level even during this economic depression period. Given all these facts, why do we need to expose the gates of the west and east for? Do we like the Turkish tomato so much? Or is it their dried fig and pickle that we are craving for?
Some people think that by exposing (i.e. opening) the borders, the economy will boom inside Armenia. Well, they are all flat wrong. The fact is that whatever we have so far will be destroyed in less than 5 years, if the borders to west and east are exposed. Over 300 years, the turks have perfected the idea of Trojan horse that they learned from the Byzantines, they have played this game successfully in Cyprus and Kosovo. Recently, they have played this game in Ughur populated area in China, and they can certainly play this game in Yerevan if we expose our borders.
Finally, if we want an open route to Black Sea and therefore Europe, we should embrace the Georgian people as our brothers (i.e. not Saakishvili regime but the Georgian people), who are indeed our traditional brothers (they even had a kingdom of Bagradouni family. During Tamar queen we were a united federation). Of course, the Georgian are already a victim of this NATO Turkish trap, so much so that they have killed their own brothers, the Osets and Abkhaz. I believe the time will come for Saakishvili to go, and Georgians will wakeup from these NATO/Turkish foolishness. Until then we must be more forgiving to our true brothers, the Georgians, instead of our arch-enemies, the Turks.
Remember that when playing the Carrot and Stick game with Turks, people wake up to realize that they have become a carrot. Therefore, the only game that you can play with Turks is Shield and Sword.
Please advise the meaning of ¨positive opposition¨?
Separate the waters of the rivers falling into the sea, and I will drink the sea.
Today, as never before, Armenian people are close to the resolution of two main problems – a) Recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey and b) Recognition of the Republic of Artsakh (Nagorno Karabakh) in protocols be issued by the UN and EU and other unions of Nations.
The difficulties of national economics congregate into an unstable seed of a global avalanche of an unpredictable economic disaster, which will be dragging in the political and social disasters as well. The process develops fast. Today is visible that all initiatives of superpowers are either dead- or, ill-born, unfortunately. For instance, apparently, the very idea of road-map is a curtain for bringing to the area of “all-sort workers” from outside and changing the demographic map of the region. There are few nations in the world remaining homogeneous. The New World Order needs the 5th colon everywhere. Designed for wars, there will be no road built, however. Sounds ironical that, for such headache future, Armenian government pays visit to the table of dead-end agreement. The lack of moral consistency in foreign politics of superpowers develops from being a single event into a standard on a global scale. The world changes fast and it is not wise to seal important documents now. Wait Armenia, time is on the Armenian side!
Armenian people pioneered many high spirited, exemplary paths for humanity – an avant-garde adoption of Christianity - the most progressive moral and spiritual guidance at that time, despite bitten down by all advanced nations; creation of the alphabet for the purpose of securing national identity; battle of Avarayr for the protection of national values. None can make us forget what Armenian’s roots are!
None part involved in the “South-Caucasus” problem needs stabilization more than the USA, Turkey and the Russia. Hear it in the “everything possible” can be done to make it happen, in the William J. Burn’s speech at Georgetown University. “Everything” also includes the Armenian part making clear that the above stated Recognitions must be enforced, before any physical actions are applied. Gorbachev has used the Armenian cause to pursue his agenda. Problem of Nagorno-Karabakh was lifted from the historical protocols then. Symbolically, Nagorno-Karabakh Republic has its former citizen presiding government of Armenia. Today, nearly 22 years apart, same kind of politicians is playing similar cards for pushing the agenda of the “New World Order”. Now, you tell who will win.
So, if “everything is possible”, let us, the Armenians of the Armenia and its Diaspora unite for another first-step into future! Let’s dictate, not bend and obey! State our rights for the Recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey and the Recognition of the Republic of Artsakh (Nagorno Karabakh) by countries and unions of nations. Demand both the UN and the EU issue this in two separate protocols! Only after that, Armenia shell consider opening of the borders. Remember Aesop’s saying: “Separate the waters of the rivers falling into the sea and I will drink the sea”.
The whole planet hopes we do it right.
Excellent !!!
This is very fascinating, intriguing, and energizing (hope-giving) analysis!
Dear Mr. Papian,
I wish you were the current Minister for Foreeign
Affairs of the Armenian Republic. A tough negotiator who can show some very stong direction against an opponent who wants to scuttle every possible right of the Armenian people. The current adminitration is very weak and has no policy direction if not guided by the financial glitter awaiting to happen by the opening of borders.
Those of us that are Armenians must take both Republic of Armenia and Republic of Turkey to the International Court for trying set aside The Wilsonian Arbitration Award that all Armenians are the creditor of.
As Mr. Papian points out the Republic of Armenia is not the assginee of this judgment so that she cannot assign it to any one.
I believe, the federal court of the United States have subject matter jurisdiction on this Arbitration Award. We must at least try open a class action against these Republics and their agents.
I pledge $2000.00 for this cause.
papkenhartunian@gmail.com
We must not sign anything with Turkey without returning our Western Armenia and recogntion of Genocide.
If we wait enough, one day Turkey will come to us for a visa entering EU.
Thanks Lusik for your comment, I agree with you entirely.
Against the juggernaut of "Globalization" we need to build a fortress of natural Wisdom...
We must learn to live by our land and on our land, and stop depending on other unfriendly countries...
Superb analysis Of Sevre treaty and Wilson's Arbitration. I have never read such an interpretation of the international law.
This tells us one thing. The government of Armenia together with Diaspora expersts have to form a committee to study all the treaties, and their modern applications.
Turkey wants Armenia to affirm and Uphold Treaty of Kars; and all we know so far that Armenia is not a signitory to that treaty. We need to study these treaties in detail and start using the International courts, UN courts to enforce and recive what has been ours, and argue against what is being demanded from us. Otherwise; again, we would be going with paper ladles to eat the soup.
I agree with mr Papken Hartunian, people like Mr. Ara Papian have to be assigned to this committe and funded to investigate further these crucial issues.
Very true. I think you represent the opinion of most, if not all, Armenians living in the diaspora. In the aftermath of this possible political disaster, it is my hope that executive power be taken away from the president in the Armenian constitution, to avert such a situation from reoccurring with future presidents, assuming we have any. The very existence of Armenia as we know it can be lost in this critical time in history. Years of keeping faith, fighting and sacrificing can be lost in a blink of an eye.
Fascinating and compelling argument. Is Mr. Papian's voice being heard by the decision-makers?
This is all well and good, but the Armenian authorities are going full speed ahead with signing the protocols, in case anyone isn't aware. They are scheduled to be signed on October 13 (perhaps even sooner to throw everyone off-guard, no one can really say what's going on). So we shouldn't get our hopes up that Foreign Minister Nalbandyan will approach his Turkish counterpart any time soon to announce that he is not going to sign the protocols because "international law" must be heeded regarding the fifth clause of the first protocol. The Turkish and Armenian authorities don't care about that obviously, they're going to sign the protocols, unless they are stopped now, not on October 12 or when they have their pens in hand.
Once the protocols are signed the above-mentioned arguments will be moot--kiss Western Armenia and anticipated Turkish recognition of the Genocide goodbye forever. Discussions about the Treaty of Kars as well as the Treaty of Sevres will not ever be raised again once the protocols are signed because they won't be relevant any longer to either party, let's understand this right now and stop dreaming. This is a make-or-break moment for the Armenian nation and the Armenian Cause. It's very simple.
All supporters of the ARF in the diaspora must put tremendous pressure on the party to stop this process by all means necessary. There is no other political party in Armenia representing the diaspora's voice that can do it.
Time is running out.
You can read more opinions and insight about the protocols here.
Can the Armenian Weekly please publish Mr. Papian's credentials at the end of his article as is normally done in most published opinion pieces in serious publications...
Just a simple 2 line blurb at the end of each opinion piece about the author is not asking too much.
Who is this man?? Would his qualifications, experiences add value to what he's written.
Your readership would greatly value this addedd feature.
It's times like this that I wish Armenia had laws in place prohibiting "insulting Armenian-ness" making it illegal to insult Armenia, Armenian ethnicity or Armenian history. God knows those who drafted and endorsed these concessionary protocols would all be indicted for life under these provisions. So much for it being an unstated law amongst our own people...
One of Rod Stewart's most popular songs is called "Young Turks"! I doubt he had any intention of offending Armenians with the name of the song. I wonder if droves of Armenians boycotted his concerts because of it.
Mr. Ara Papian's comprehensible explanation supports the legitimacy of our legal demands for Wilsonian Armenia, and for the Kars and Ardahan provinces at the least. Our legal rights for those territories, based on international laws, were explained by Shavarsh Toriguian in his book "The Armenian Question and International Law," published in 1973.
Based on the current negotiations between Armenia and Turkey to finalize their border, and to allay concerns that such an agreement would deprive the Armenian people of their lands, a government in exile should be established to represent the Armenian government that was illegally forced out and its territories occupied. International laws are clear on the illegality of forceful occupation of another legitimate country, as was Armenia.
Mr. Oskanian wants to make only a couple of changes in the Protocols? This shows why Oskanian has always been part of the problem.
There are more than two things wrong with the Protocols. They are filled with irrelevancies and hypocrisy. For example, the part about illegal drug trafficing. Turkey is the main transit route for heroin into Europe, and the government is complicit. Turkey has no right to lecture Armenia about drugs, or human rights for that matter.
I think that Oskanian is still trying to play all sides issues. I have asked why - and have still not received any answer - his Civilitas foundation has as a top member Peter Rosenblatt, a leader within the American Jewish Committee, a group which like the Anti-Defamation League denies the Armenian genocide and which has long been against the Armenian genocide resolution in Congress.
Harut Sassounian and others, including ANCA and the Armenian Weekly, have written many times about Barry Jacobs who until recently was a director of the AJC and an infamous genocide denier who appeared in a Turkish genocide denial film in Europe (title: Sari Gelin).
So, it appears to me that Oskanian is playing up to the power structures instead of absolutely defending Armenia's interests. Yes, Oskanian says some nice things above, but I question his sincerity. Let's hear from Oskanian about his genocide denialist AJC friend Rosenblatt.
Armenia’s Parliament and President were elected fraudulently through ballot box stuffing, media represssion and intimidation, threats, violence, and all sorts of wrongdoing that go back years.
They have no right, therefore, to negotiate or ratify such a weighty and controversial (to say the least) document as the Protocols from Hell.
Step 1: Members of the opposition parties must declare that the government is illegal and demand its resignation
Step 2: Members of the opposition must resign from the government
Step 3: The opposition must declare that the Protocols were negotiated by an illegal government and violate present international law (as explained by various persons, including Ara Papian).
Step 4: The opposition must declare that if the Protocols are “ratified,” they will forever be regarded as illegal and DOA (”Dead-on-Arrival”) and will never have the force of law even if the present government and Turkey claim otherwise.
A “law”, if you wish the dignify the Protocols from Hell by that name, that does not have the clear INFORMED support of the people – and this one clearly does not – is a law that will be ratified under a dark cloud and that Armenians will not accept and that the international community knows is DOA. The Protocols process will fall apart if the outcry by the opposition is united and strong.
Mr. Murad Meneshi is correct. We must establish a government in exile. I have been advacating the same idea for some time already. My problem with all of us is that we just talk. Let us do something about this. We have money and man power. All we need is a group of people to organize and take on the project.
I am ready to contribute time, skills and money.
papkenhartunian@gmail.com
JD
"..a government in exile should be established to represent the Armenian government
I hope this wasnt another sensless sourj session with the Ambassador. Did anyone of these fine individuals around the table really give it to the Ambassador and lay it on the line or was it just half-smiles and nodes at whatever he said. The time for soft power diplomacy is over. We can't afford weak willed attempts. Our points must be made LOUD AND CLEAR to these people. Where are the HAWKS in the room???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
As usual Harut, we can count on you not to mince words. Are your columns translated and published in Yerevan adn Turkey? Perhpas Agos or another publication prints your columns as an international feature item..
In any event they should be.
GOD help us.
I pray to God to keep those who give to the ARmenian people and to safe keep the history such as above..
I pray that everyone who to this day does not agree that our past is a frelection of who we are today by not believing in what happened back in 1914, find in their heart and mind the truth..
God bless you ..
Gayane
Ara Papian
Head of the Modus Vivendi Research Center
Ara Papian was the Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Republic of Armenia to Canada (2000-2006). Prior to his appointment to Canada, he was the Spokesman and Head of Public Affairs Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Ara Papian successfully graduated from the Department of Oriental Studies of Yerevan State University (1984) and completed postgraduate degree course of studies in Armenian History at Yerevan State University (1989). He graduated from the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Federation (1994, Moscow), from NATO Defense College (1998, Rome) and completed a course in Public Diplomacy in (1999, Wilton Park, UK)
Ara Papian was born in Yerevan, in 1961.
He is fluent in Armenian, Russian, English, Persian.
Ara Papian is married, with two sons.
"...or if you are a citizen of Armenia who desperately needs the border to be opened to earn a living..."
There is no proof that an opened border will help any unemployed Armenian citizen "earn a living." Those with businesses no matter how large or small who are able to exploit Armenian consumers by selling cheap, sub-mediocre, even dangerous Turkish goods (faulty electrical sockets are one case in point) on the Armenian marketplace are doing so very successfully with a closed border because transportation via Georgia is fairly easy and for the most part reliable. I have stressed time and time again in my own blog posts and articles printed in this paper that there is no shortage of Turkish products on the Armenian marketplace--Turkish clothing, domestic goods and construction materials are in ample supply. In fact, many store owners do not bother stocking anything else but Turkish products. So Armenian businessmen who choose to sell Turkish goods, and Armenian consumers who enthusiastically buy them because they are "Turkish and good" are doing just fine.
Even if the border is opened, no one can say how high the customs tarriffs will be set by the Turkish government. For all we know, they could be set higher than the fees the Georgians are already imposing on imports from Turkey, which means prices will obviously go up, not down asm many are probably hoping. There are no concrete studies or evaluations about how an opened border will affect someone living in a remote village who presumably "desperately needs the border to be opened." Unless we are inferring here that the villager will cross the border on foot to find work in Turkey, let's not get our hopes up that anything will change for him on his own soil. And it is naive thinking for anyone to believe that an opened border will magically bring hope and prosperity to those who have fallen victim to widespread, unregulated and unchecked Armenian capitalism.
Armenian citizens who need work, in the regions primarily, will get it only when industries are developed on Armenian soil. If diasporans or natives of Armenia are banking on Turkish businessmen to invest here because that is what the country needs, then let the protocols be signed. If Armenians do not want the Turks to control the Armenian economy and put their statehood in jeopardy, then the Armenian authorities should not be allowed to sign the protocols. The question is, what do Armenians really want?
I am compelled to repeat myself because it seems my words were ignored based on the subsequent comments, and because I am passionate about this issue being a diasporan Armenian living in Armenia.
Armenian citizens who need work, in the regions primarily, will get it only when industries are developed on Armenian soil. I think this is something everyone can agree with. With this current border we maintain our self-determination and self-dependence. We are staying Armenian. The Armenian economy boomed with a closed border--this is a fact. Armenia has never had it so good. Our country's economy will continue to expand, even with this closed border, that I am certain of. Our transportation routes though Georgia are easily traveled and reliable, so no worries there. We can also agree here that the border can change if we (the entire Armenian people, not just the Diaspora) demand it to, which we are not serious about doing for reasons I have never understood.
If diasporans or natives of Armenia are banking on Turkish businessmen to invest here assuming the protocols are ratified and the border opens because that is what the country needs, then let's stop discussions about land reparations, the return of lands under Turkish control to Armenia (or a "Wilsonian Armenia," whatever that is supposed to mean), Genocide recognition by Turkey, justice, and the necessity to form an "Armenian government in exile" to deal with such issues. None of those things will ever happen if the protocols are signed and the current border opens because those ideals will no longer have any meaning; no one will care--no international courts, foreign governments and especially Turkey. Let's be realistic about this please and stop dreaming. Armenian statehood, economic viability and culture is on the line. We have to comprehend this. October 13 is only a few weeks away.
We need to focus on what is at stake right now, in the moment, and not some abstract concept based on Papyan's article (which is insightful). Let's stop the protocols from being signed then regroup to decide once and for all what we-- Armenians both in the Diaspora and in Armenia--want, then demand it, together as one nation, not two divided by mountains and oceans. But we have to do it today!
Dear Ayse,
I hope you can remember me. We met in Istanbul in 2005. How was deeply touched with our meeting and how sensitiv you were to me and to my history. I can identificate myself so much with the article you write. You can't imagine! I feel the same in every point you are depicting.
I feel very close to you! This are exactly the right words, sentences, way of thinking that I need to hear to heal my wounds.
Thank you!
Silvina Der-Meguerditchian
It seems no one had learned any lessons from how the last disasterous effort to establish Greater Armenia ended.
I like what Realist (why name is not given...?) says. The bottom line, at the end of the day, all talk about recognition shold be about reparation, restitution etc. I don't know why successive Armenian governments have not taken the issue (except for Ter Petrosian's unsuccessful brief attempt behind closed doors). Why not take the issue through the proper channels in the UN...International Court etc. For many "activist" Armenians, the recognition of the genocide has become a religion. It's about reparation. If it was simply recognition, than no one would be concerned about the Kars treaty, of current borders etc. Let's be honest .
On a side note, over 50% (60 to 65%) of the population of Armenia are descendants of the survivors of the genocide. The survivors are not only in the diaspora. It appears many in the diaspora assume Armenians in Armenia were not part of the genocide.
Chris, I agree with your conclusion. However, Mr. papian's article is not about abstract concepts. It is about future viability of Armenian Nation. Without Western Armenia the Armenia cannot sustain as a viable state.
Those who care about Armenians must unite and create a power that could protect the Armenian rights.
The one unintended outcome of this heated controversy is the coming together of diverse Armenian organizations to take a common stand against these protocols.
If that is the case. Why doesn't the Armenian Weekly report about demonstrations being organized by some of these other organizations. Reading the Weekly you would think the only organization that is against the protocols is the ARF.
Excellent analysis. Why open the border at all and give Turkey the leverage of shutting it down whenever it suits its interests? The border should not be opened before vital security issues are settled and Turkey has acknowledged the Genocide, not only as a moral imperative but mostly as a critical security condition. We need that border shut completely. Our history demonstrates that the best way Armenians have had of dealing with Turkey has been not dealing with Turkey at all.
Although, I am still computing the details using 0-information theory to find out why such Protocol and border issue is being introduced now by the west (or Turkey) after more than 16 years of neglect of Turkish blockade, it would not surprise me if we eventually found out very late in the game that indeed the current government in Armenia are, bluntly put, lacking basic experience and have not done any strategic analysis whatsoever. I think Mr Sassounian’s point here introduces a method on how to overcome the situation, assuming that the West has taken the Armenian government as hostage under a pointed gun. For example, Mr. Nalbadyan being under pointed gun is saying “Guys, listen to me, these Protocols cannot be changed, because if we change, the Turks will change too, and the process will go on for several years”. This reminds me of the “Outbreak” movie situation where the chief commander has ordered the bombing of the outbreak scene area, and the second in command restates foolishly this same command, while giving further information why the helicopter should not disturb the airforce planes path, thereby leaking a method to intervene the bombing planes mission.
I would not consider Nalbadyan wise enough to be an analogy here, but indeed he leaked some vital information which can be a key to getting out of this situation. The same information was also leaked in Mr Oskanian’s speech. Here is the piece of information:
“…these Protocols cannot be changed, because if we change, the Turks will change too, and the process will go on for several years…”
The key is therefore to demand a change in the khaydarag Protocols with the purpose of stalling its signature indefinitely for as much as we find necessary in our benefit. And since this will be going on for several years, we continue all aspects of our other processes as we always have done them and with new improvements.
Here is therefore my advise, when Mr Sarkisyan visits the Diaspora, we should have either of these options for him: Either denounce the Protocols, or if this is not acceptable to his judgement (due to some classified strategic fact that he cannot tell us), then we should demand changes to the Protocol statements including removal and/or ammendments with the main goal of stalling indefinitely its signing.
Hye, just a point of information... as I recall it was the first (mistake) of a president, Der Petrossian, who was so anti ARF that he disallowed ARF from
Armenia. Dedicated Armenian intellectuals formed themselves to become ARFD, which is, I believe, their symbol in the Armenian state. In my book, this first president was ill equipped to be first leader of our fledgling Armenian nation. A Lemon, who took, more than he gave. Sarkisyan et al are mentally limited to the destructive soviet/communist approach to leadership - in their treatment of the citizens of Armenia - but Armenia is now a democracy...
I believe, today, there shall be true patriots from within our Armenian nation, such as we had in 1918-1920, and more, to lead our fledgling Armenia forward from the morass... Manooshag
Anyone who accepts these protocols is either ignorant or not Armenian.
Erdogan is a shrewd politician and a hypocrit. When it comes to karabakh; Territorial Integrity should apply; when it comes to Cyprus, right to self determination should apply. He talks about Global civilization based on universal values , Human rights, and democracy, while he keeps Penile code 301 alive and applies it on his intelligentsia.
While I admire Mr. Sasoonian's analysis, I think he should have pointed out the followings:
The Declaration of Independence of Republic of Armenia decalres
"The Republic of Armenia stands in support of the task of achieving international recognition of the 1915 Genocide in Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia."
Article 6 of The Constitution of Republic of Armenia declares
"The international treaties not complying with the Constitution can not be ratified."
Therefore, the ratification of thr so called protocols would be unconstitutional. No one has power to violate the Constitution of Republic of Armenia.
It is significant to point out that the text of the Constitution refers the location of genoicdal act in "Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia." This clause implies that Armenian Constitution separates Western Armenia from Ottoman Turkey.
The current protocols overrides this significant distinction. Be ware Mr. President! At least we are!
Long Live Armenia! Long Live Artsakh! Long Live Diaspora!
ERDOGAN SPEECH AT UN.
What a lyer and hipocret person this guy is it is unbelevebal I just can not
stand this big fat(f) lyer he speeks bouth side of his mouth you can see that he is lying,
Speking about Teritorial Integrity if that is the case why he is not giving up
all the Armenianland and all the Teritores thar belong to Armenian,
Garbis
What exactly is his sin? That Turkey wants good relations with all neighbors and real peace in the region? He should not be promoting terriotiral integrity of all the states in the area and demand respect for borders? These are not just words but also deeds of his government - I am not an AKP supporter by any means.
What is the relevance of Cyprus? Republic of Turkey is/was a guarantor, had signature on a treaty, making it (and UK and Greece) responsible for the constitutional order of Cyprus. How is this relevant to Karabag?
It seems the painful lessons of last century are lost to a majority of Armenians.
Mr. Root,
You say, "If that is the case. Why doesn’t the Armenian Weekly report about demonstrations being organized by some of these other organizations. Reading the Weekly you would think the only organization that is against the protocols is the ARF."
Do you even read this paper? Because there have been several reports, references, and comments about the other demonstrations in the past week. Below is the link to one. Just do your homework and find the rest and read them:
http://armenianweekly.com/2009/09/23/garbis-armenian-politics-stagnate-while-threat-to-statehood-looms/
Turkey is illegally occupying Cyprus and they have continued to do so from the first moment of their military presence in Cyprus. Turkey is violating International Law by doing so and always has been. I can self-appoint myself guarantor too and take over any place in the world I feel like? The international community does not recognize this "guarantor" status - only the violation of its international law.
Turkey is illegally blockading Armenia - not vice versa. It is Turkey that has failed to honor "peaceful relations" and trade laws by doing so. Again, this is another long stnading violation of international law.
Turkey every year violates the air space of Greece via military incursion. Last year such an incursion resulted in the death of a Greek pilot from Crete - the clumsy behavior of a Turkish air force pilot downed a Greek plane in its own airspace. And this is happening MORE frequently over the past few years than in the past.
When do these people start to realize truth instead of making up false stories ?
"It seems the painful lessons of last century are lost to a majority of Armenians."
Typical bullying statement. An endorsement of genocide? Again the same old song?
"I am sure you will not ask or answer these questions but I am writing to the history. Hopefully admins will be enough democrat and open minded to pusblish it."
Dear Mr. Otken:
I suggest you read this letter from the International Assocation of Genocide Scholars. Perhaps true academic scholarship will open your mind to the truth. But somehow I doubt it.
http://www.anca.org/assets/graphics/2009/agr09/iags_obama_030709.pdf
Let me give my answer to Mr. Erdoghan with Rabindranath Tagore's words
First remove the darkness of sin from your heart
Then go to the Mosque
Go not to the Mosque to bow down your head in prayer,
But learn to bow in humility before YOUR fellowmen...
Go not to the Mosque to pray on bended knees,
First bend down to lift someone who is down-trodden...
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Great Article! Armenians should have been outraged when PM Benjamin Netanyahu expressed his disdain for the Iranian Presidents rantings against Israel. Netanyahu rails against those countries that remained in the UN Hall to listen . . . "Have you no shame? Have you no decency?" Yet Israel has never recognized the Armenian Genocide themselves and continues to stand with Genocide Denier Turkey . . . Armenians should be asking Mr. Netanyahu and Israel . .. HAVE YOU NO SHAME? HAVE YOU NO DECENCY? I guess Armenians aren't allowed to utter such words.
Janine,
Why such bluster? Especially with such misinformation. Turkey did not delcare itesf a guarantor of Cyprus constitution and order, it was a joint treaty co-signed by UK, Cyprus and Greece. All signed it. What exactly is illegal about Turkish troops on Cyprus? Whose law? There are Greek and British and UN soldieres there too. I am not sure if you understand what all this means though. Aegean is not Greek waters. A simple look at the map will suffice. They claim "control" over the "airspace". It is a self-appointed and declared right. If Turkish flights were illegal they would have gone to court. Greek pilots routinely harass the training Turkish pilots there, and on one ocasion one of the ace-wannabes actually hit a Turkish jet and killed himself in the process. Small people, what can I say... get your facts straight, it helps.
Turkish government as well as Turks do not care about your false accusations anymore. We know we are right, and we will stay together united.
We are in no more in defense; it is time to act to rebuild the Ottoman spirit. Harmony and peace as it was there in the region before the troubles of 19th century onwards. Do not forget; we lived in peace for centuries before the Brits, etc came and do not neglect it was not just the Turks who were Ottomans; but all like Albanian, Slavic, Armenian, Arabic, and Jewish peoples.
This is what Erdogan is trying to do, and we people of the Balkans are looking forward to someone saying; - let's live together. All these armenian diaspora people who earn their lives out of the hatre, please stop for the sake of us all.
You guys are really funny; this whole article can be re-read as it was the case for establishment of the Armenian nation starting from the early 19th century. Many Armenians today do not know they were the called the loyal people, they do not know the number of Armenian ministers and representatives in the Ottoman House. They do not know the doctor of many of the Sultans were Armenians, they were rich and respected in the Ottoman community. The Armenian peoples of the Anatolia were living in peace a thousand year with their Turkish neighbours. The person who took after the Ottoman prince in exile was Armenian, etc.
I met an Armenian girl in France, who was literally having a nervous breakdown after she learnt I was Turkish. Please, think about yourself, your feelings, and how much in hate you guys are? COuld not this cloud your judgement, and your fairness to an entire nation by accusing them to murder the entire Armenians? How about what Armenians did? Did you ever wonder why the deportation took place, and how it happened? How many people died en route, and who exactly killed them? And for what motive?
I tell you something: Turkish people can be brutal, and I would be, too against 1) people who murder their beloved ones, and 2) people who betray them. Unfortunately Armenians did both.
Other than that, I had great armenian friends in Turkey, and during my visit to Erivan; however is this a coincidence that I could never be friends, or have a civilised conversation with anyone from diaspora? What exactly is in your minds?
Is it land you want? I tell you; if you keep on asking for Turkish soil, we are about to develop the idea to get Erivan, which was a Muslim majority before the WW1, back.
Peace friends,
To Mr. Murat and Mr Fatih
You both sound like you want a peaceful coexistense in the caucasus under a new Ottoman empire. Mr Murat also expresses his racist and shovinistic Ideas against the minorities of the last century ottoman empire, by bullying us.
2 recommendations for you gentlemen:
1- we the armenians want to live independently on our historical lands, and don't want to be any part of your aspired Neo ottoman empire. MR Erdogan simply is continuing what Enver and Talaat started a century ago.
Denial of Genocide is the final stage of of the Genocide. I recommend you two read the book by Taner Akcam " A Shameful Act".
2- You want to have a peaceful coexistence in the balkans; so do we the Armenians. All you have to do is Acknowledge the genocide and make reparations, ratify the Territories as arbitrated by President Wilson in the Sevre Treaty, give karabakh its right for Self determination as Erdogan proposes for Northern Cyprus, and we all will march on our way to peaceful prosperity.
Mehmet:
Genocide can exist and does exist if the perpetrators of the Genocide die as well. In WW II,Approximately 5.5 million German military were killed, anywhere between 1 to 2 million German civilians were killed. Please now tell me that the Holocaust did not happen.
I find it ironic that you write about “loved ones being killed” and “betrayal” as justification of an attempted extermination of entire people. The reality is most Armenians wish the historic events were closer to your vision then what happened in reality.
Your little anecdotal stories are irrelevant, please repeat them to people who are forced to listen to you because they have no choice. (your wife and kids). Nothing qualifies you to speak about the topic aside from the fact that you are born a Turk.
As for country, you have contributed not one iota of culture to the world. Your greatest cultural reference point, the Hagia Sophia, is a structure your people didn’t even build and it was originally a church. Your country declared war on Germany and Japan effective March 1, 1945. 2 months before Germany completely surrendered. Your country put on trial Orhan Pamuk, the only real intellectual your country produced for commenting on the Armenian Genocide.
Your country is known more for killing journalist, military coups, and eradicating entire Kurdish villages in the countryside. Nobody in Europe likes you, yet your desperate to join them. In short your country, and culture is a complete joke. Plus, Your childish predications are an example of the intellect that country is able to produce.
It is the land we want, but its not even your land. Nobody speaks Turkish in the lands we want, they are all speak Kurdish.
The thinking in this article is spot on target.
Mr. Boyajian is right on — again!
The West and Israel are just interested in capturing Armenia to promote and exploit their myopic energy, security and trade interests in the South Caucasus and beyond. Worse, they are continuously displaying utter disrespect towards Armenian statehood and democracy by backing unelected, pluto-autocratic presidents and parliaments. And, Turkey and Azerbaijan are dying to seize this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to strangle Armenia and to eventually wipe it off the map.
Considering our nations both face existential threats, it is in Russia’s interest to become a true ally of Armenia by: paying some rent for its military base in Gyumri; helping Armenia enhance civil liberties; recognizing Artsakh’s independence, or at least speaking favorably about the right to self-determination; condemning the Armenian Genocide and genocide denial in international fora; denouncing Georgia’s recent adventures along the Armenian-Georgian border, etc. This is a win-win for both Russia and Armenia!
And, thank you Mr. Boyajian for your keen analysis and conclusions! I always enjoy reading your articles. They are a breath of fresh air and very important for the Armenian Cause, especially at a time when the Armenian Nation’s future, security and well-being are at stake!
Boyajian understands geopolitics better than the Sargsyan regime does, not to mention the AAA, AGBU, Ramkavar party and other organizations and individuals who falsely insist that there are no preconditions in these "Protocols." Such organizations and individuals -- and the current administration -- were not elected by the Armenian people, do not represent the will of the people, and have no right to bargain on our behalf. They cannot be entrusted with our Armenian patrimony.
To begin with, the border with Turkey was open for more almost half a century. During that time the US neither "penetrated" or "subjugated" Armenia. What makes you think it will be able to do so now? Armenia is almost under the same pressure from Russia now, as it was during the USSR. Russia is Armenia's lifeline in every sense of the word, which the US can and will never become. Second, Russia would never want the surrender of Kharabakh to Azerbaijan. If that is what Russia desired, that would have happened a long time ago.
Armenia should only relay on his own power. Others will eventually betray or exploit him like many time in history. Enough is enough. If you look to other countries who also have lost significant territories, only those who kept focused on economical growth eventually survived.
Russia is being Myopic. To Isolate Georgia they agree to pressure their only Ally in the region; to capitulate to Turkey, and surrender Karabakh. Then what? Turkey is already dictating Armenia as a colony, to severe its ties with Diaspora. What makes the Russians think that The Turks will not do the same against the Russians? Armenia will become a puppet colony for Turkey with a puppet government, and then how will Armenia's citizens feel about Learning Turkish as a first language like our parents did? The problem is we are yelling and screaming about penile code 301, but we are forgetting that there is a similar state controlled gag on free speech in Armenia. Why don't they publish Diaspora's national outburst against the protocols? Why don't they allow those Armenian Think tanks like Armen Ayvazian and the opposition to be heard? The Armenian people in Armenia are very intelligent people but they are not well informed.
Diaspora has to inform them, and lead them to prevent this national catastrophy that awaits us.
The following paragraph :
"The enduring legacy of the Armenian Genocide is not just a challenge for Turkey and Armenia. It is also a challenge for Europe and America. The West, despite growing Turkish power and influence, should encourage Turkey to take responsibility for the Armenian Genocide, not assist Turkey in compelling Armenia to agree to preconditions that humiliate the victimized party and prejudice the integrity and outcome of any future genuine reconciliation process between Turkey and Armenia."
Implies that Mr. Hovannisian believes that Morality is or should be superior to geopolitics!!
Hye,
Over the years, I've heard any number of unfair attacks on the Cilician See.
Some personal, some partisan, some downright silly. Nearly all have had their history wrong and their facts biased to suit any one of many pre-existing prejudices that pepper our community landscape. One of the most patently, and transparently, ridiculous is that we don't need a Cilicia because we have Etchmiadzin. This argument reflects a profound ignorance of both our history and our Church's unique role in the life of our nation.
Beyond the history and all the other compelling reasons why Cilicia should, and will, remain a vital institution of our Church and nation, there are reasons why, today, Cilicia remains crucial to our survival as a nation.
The best recent example of this is the powerful and principled stand that Aram I of Antelias has taken against the one-sided Turkey-Armenia protocols. His stand, as any observer can see, stands in stark contrast to the message coming from Etchmiadzin, which represents little more than a weak echo of the capitulation and surrender being advanced by the regime in Yerevan. This distinction illustrates the incalculable value of the Armenian Church maintaining a strong, moral voice, even when circumstances in the homeland make such a stand by our Church leaders there impossible. Antelias, in this case, is the strong brother, again, carrying the burden of the family forward when his sibling has faltered. This strength should be celebrated, not attacked for petty partisan purposes.
Manooshag
Mr. Boyajian is right on the mark in his analysis above. However, the U.S. and NATO's penetration across an open Turkish-Armenian border will also expose Iran to another vulnerable entry point.
Could American heavy handed pressure on Armenia to normalize relations with Turkey be based more on getting strategically closer to Iran than anything else? It may only be a matter of time (if not already strategized as that) before the US and NATO peer downwards to Armenia's border with Iran as a strategically viable military route in their looming endeavors post the "new sanctions".
yet another reason why people who do not have any understanding of geopolitics, should not be making grand statements. The analysis in this piece is flawed and full of errors.
To start with, there have been many indicators and signs that Russia has been aware of these developments long before anyone else did. The fact remains that the number of Turkish-Russian meetings in Moscow or in Ankara in the last year alone, has been much more than all of the interactions that the two countries had in the last 80 years. Turkey and Russia have a strategic partnership in the region and Russia is willing to accept any Turkish overture in the region.
Moreover, the “Schism” between Turkey and West has been something that many people have been blind to not see. Starting with the collapse of the USSR and accentuated with the coming to power of the AKP, Turkey has been redefining itself to become a more Eastern and Southern looking country and by playing an increased role in the two region in its own right. Furthermore, the continued growing ant-Western sentiments in Turkey coupled with a government closely associating itself with the Palestinians in the latter’s conflict with Israel, show the extent to which Turkey has “divorced” from the West.
To use a blanket category “West” and assume that Europe and the US have the same approach and policy in the South Caucasus is nonsensical. Since 1991 the two Wests have actually had different policies in the region and vis-à-vis Russia.
While it is true that Georgia is strongly entrenched in a “Western” alliance, Azerbaijan is far from doing so. Perhaps one could go as far as to claim that today, Azerbaijan has the most balanced foreign policy in the region by having good relations with Russia, Iran and the West (mostly because of its oil)
The fact that the author uses vanity references is yet another sign of the rather unprofessional approach to issues.
The section titled “Russian policy blunders” is ideologically charged while lacks any knowledge of history and current issues (something that could be easily remedied if the author chooses to read texts which are not one sided and serve a political goal rather than a well-rounded analysis).
The recent developments between Russia and the US (the shelving of the missile defence shield, the unity of Russian and US outlook towards Iran, etc) show the extent to which the two powers meet eye to eye, and the extent to which Russia feels comfortable dealing with the US.
And finally, after all the verbosity the author uses, trying to show how much pressure Armenia is under and the West, Israel, Turkey, etc are conspiring to force Armenia to sign the protocols, does it make any sense to say that Armenia is able to change its stand by having a fraction of Armenians rejecting the protocols whereas the majority just have colourless views if any at all.
Concerning Chris's comments, I agree with him, but here is a more precise picture of what is happening on the ground (or rather the front-line). Look at the minimum wage comparison tables between Turkey and Armenia, you will observe that Turkish employees get 5 times the salary of their counterpart in Armenia. In the eastern borders of current Turkey (i.e. historic Western Armenia) there is a need for cheap energy resources, and while the economy is very bad, it is still much better than that of Armenia. In Armenia, we have an abundance of energy because of our nuclear plant(s). The agricultural produces are at least 6 times cheaper than that of Turkey's (even in the current bad economic situation). There are a hundred more details, for which I have no space here in this comment to point out (perhaps I should write a book about it).
Given these sample information, the current Armenian government is taking a bet that since the labor is cheaper in Armenia, there will be lots of jobs pouring into the Republic once the borders are opened. Moreover there will be very little export of human power into Turkey, because this wage gab will not be used (with the exception of high level specialists). Therefore, this will open several hundred thousands of jobs inside Armenia. The other main issue is the nuclear energy, which will be exported to Turkey (as electricity), and that will bring a large revenue to the state.
So as you can see, the economic situation is quite simplistic for the current Armenian government, or at least it is simple enough to describe it to the population. And believe me, the population will certainly like this good news, and that is why we have not heard much opposition in Armenia concerning the Protocols.
But this picture is not so precise, because economic factors are never constant. I have even tried this myself by opening a business in Armenia, which lasted for almost 9 years, with a lose of 1.2 million USD directly from my pocket (note that this is not a complain, my lose is my sacrifice for my Fatherland, and I will sacrifice more, even with my life if need be). The problem is very elementary, the wages may be low now, but when comparing 2.8 million Armenia population with more than 80 million of Turkey, the low wage will vanish in less than 6 months (after the ratification and opening of the borders). This means that all these new jobs will vanish in less than 6 months (they will all be unemployed again), and I am not talking about all these local Armenia businesses getting a deliberate deathly blows by their respective competitors in Turkey.
What about the energy export issue. Well, since the expenses in Turkey are at a higher standard, they will be a better customer for Armenian energy companies than the local Armenian population. In this way, the cost of the energy will eventually increase in Armenia, because the abundance will be no more.
So let us summarize the situation for a farmer in Armenia. First, he will get a job, with 5 times the minimum wage in Armenia, after several months, he will realize that the food cost has risen because of his salary raise. Also, the energy cost will rise as well. This will nullify the salary gain that came from the Turkey-Armenia Border opening. Then very soon, he will be unemployed, while the energy expense will maintain its inflated value. This will be the end of local Armenian farmers, as well as other labor sections.
So, my question is to Chris, what really is a realistic demand and what is a dream?
Here is another view on what is happening at the information war level. For almost 85 years, we are demanding a recognition of the Genocide to the world (including Turkey). At the early stage, we started with a full demand, in which we wanted our lands back and the recognition of the Genocide. Over these 85 years, people like you have pointed that returning the lands are not realistic demands, and therefore we were pushed to the corner, where all we demanded was for the world to just come on the stage and just pronounce the word "GENOCIDE". It's so simple, just the three vowel word: GE-NO-CIDE, But to our surprising “infallible” logic, even this was rejected. And now what is more ironic, is that Turkey is coming up with a grand information war, which I think will baffle your very logic Chris, because what they came up with is the mother of all dreams. They constructed a monument in Kars, which is erected as a memory of more than a million Turks that were killed by the "Ruthless Armenians". So, correct me if I am wrong, is this a dream of a dream that I am seeing, or maybe after 60 years from now, I will be in my grave remembering that it was I, and only I the Armenian that massacred all the world with the Turks in it.
Mr Chris, there are no such things as dreams, there are only hearts and brains that strive to continue the fight for life. Therfore, aim high and fight, or forever rest in peace.
FYI, the most recent name of Dubne/Dibni is Doger. It's location is 38 degrees 21 minutes north latitude and 40 degrees 13 minutes east longitude. This is approximately 30 miles north of Diyarbakir.
you're a good writer Tom! beautiful article!!
The entire world community refuses to recognize the occupation of Cyprus as legal and does not recognize the occupied territory as a separate entity from the state of Cyprus. So, to answer your question: the world says it's illegal. It's violation of international law. No treaty gave Turkey the right to occupy Cyprus and nobody recognizes this as legitimate but as illegitimate.
Greek airspace is once again recognized by the entire world - except people who live in their fantasies of empire. Sorry you have never heard of international law. Maybe the world would be better off if you were at least educated in the issues you choose to speak out on. On the other hand, we see how little has changed. Dreams of empire traduce historical fact.
Deir-ez-Zor is the definite proof of the mass murder of innocent Armenians by the hundreds of thousands! And the Turks still deny it ...!?
Amo Garabed! Thank you for your contributions each week. They are interesting, entertaining and informative.
Reading your submissions takes my mind of the disasterous P-word which is always welcome...
Imagine that - we cringe at hearing the P-word and they cringe at hearing the G-word!
This is almost a fantasy. A few points in objection:
1. Mr. Boyajian fails to understand that replacing the Russian element within Armenia cannot be accomplished with half hearted diplomatic measures and "protocols" (or even a full opening of the border). The Russians have become an almost permanent force within the Armenian army, the Armenian Intelligence Agency, the police, and have huge governmental control over important Armenian energy sources (even within Armenia). Kicking them out (or even threatening their exclusive access to Armenian markets, as Mr. Vazgen Sarkisian and Karen Demerchian found out) can be deadly. America is not ready to fight it out in Armenia when the return wouldn't be much (considering it can satisfy it's demands in the Caucusus using Georgia).
2. With the above mentioned in mind, it can be better argued that the United States has almost ceded Armenia to the Russians - realizing how difficult it would be to penetrate the Armenian government. In 2007, while the Armenian opposition set up the perfect conditions for another "color revolution" - and arguably expected America to step in - the Bush adminstration and the State Department barely condemned the Armenian government, and, ultimatelly, took no steps to materialize the little criticism it spewed (i.e., didn't deactivate Armenia's account in the Millenium project like it threatened to do so).
3. Although at first glance, a growing Armenian economy and the end to the Artsakh conflict seems like it can free Armenia from many sorts of "protections" it might need from Russia; Russia's support for the Washington supported "protocols"/"dialogue" between Armenia and Turkey/Azerbeijian actually shows how confident Russia is with keeping Armenia in it's sphere of influence, despite all of these Washington-sponsored iniatiatives. That is why Russia supports them aswell.
ON THE OTHER HAND - if this was a nice attempt at Armenian propaganda, I completely see where you're coming from and support you 100% - though I doubt the Russians are stupid enough to fall for this!
I believe my government's foreign policy(USA) with regard to the country of my ancestral lineage (Armenia) is on the right course. It serves the interests of the USA plus an open border and becoming an energy transit route is in the best interests of the people living in Armenia.
It seems Turkish nationalist zealots, Azeri zealots and Armenian zealots have become bedfellows all wanting the stranglehold on Armenia to continue. Each group weaves fanciful conjecture to serve their own agenda. This is very unfortunate for the people of Armenia. I am pleased my government is working against this unholy convergence.
I thank Mr. Dumanian for his comments on my article.
Mr. Dumanian says that Armenia cannot be pulled from the Russian orbit because Russia is too entrenched there. I must disagree.
As I noted, Russia lost two empires in the space of 75 years. Russia is rather incompetent at keeping countries within its sphere. Sooner or later – somehow - they leave.
Since the fall of the USSR, Georgia and Azerbaijan have largely fallen out of the Russian sphere, and Russia is extremely nervous about NATO activity in the Caucasus. I am actually understating the situation, of course. Russia is in deep trouble in the Caucasus, and it knows it.
Belarus and Ukraine are on their way out of the Russia sphere, slowly, but inexorably. It's a see-saw so far.
All of the former Warsaw Pact countries that were under the USSR's thumb - Poland, Bulgaria , etc. - countries are out. Most are in NATO and the EU.
Former Soviet Central Asia - the five Muslim republics there - is being penetrated by China and, in various ways, the US. We shall see what happens there. (The US is trying to penetrate the region from the south, via Afghanistan, but of course that’s an uphill battle.)
The North Caucasus, including Chechnya, is a major Russian headache, to say the least.
Russia is under siege and desperate. Its leverage over other countries, such as in Europe, is gas and oil. That will not last forever.
Again, I am actually understating the above cases.
It is true, as Mr. Dumanian says, that Russia has penetrated and co-opted Armenia.
But Russia also penetrated all the other countries that left or are leaving its sphere. Russian penetration can be undone. It just needs a push.
The US is not going after Armenia because it loves Armenians, as Mr. Dumanian knows. Armenia, with all its faults, is the most stable and homogeneous country in the Caucasus. Armenia is an attractive country. It is a prize.
No, the US is going after Armenia because it correctly sees Armenia as the last of three Caucasus dominoes to be knocked over. The US is engaged in a major effort now with Armenia. It is serious. It wants to open up the Turkey-Armenia-Azerbaijan corridor. Will it succeed? We shall see. With the opening of the border, the trajectory is clear, and that trajectory points to the wealthy, powerful, and highly attractive West, not Russia.
As for Russia’s “confidence” that Armenia will stay solidly within the Russian sphere: Russia can be as confident as it wants. It does not mean that its confidence is justified. Russia has been taking Armenian loyalty for granted. That is a mistake. Yes, Armenia needs Russia in various ways, but that need is not absolute. Russia is a traditionally imperialist country that refuses to make genuine friends with Armenians. That is a big mistake, and it's a shame. This is Russia's blind spot. Now, Russia thinks it has co-opted Turkey too. Dream on, Russia, dream on.
The problem with Armenia, and I think we all agree, is that it does not have a well-informed, honest, nationalistic leadership that can maneuver deftly and in the best interests of the country.
Again, I can only thank Mr. Dumanian for expressing his views.
As hhas and Henry pointed out, the argument in this article is quite weak.
First, the so called 'soccer diplomacy' wouldn't have even got off the ground if the Russians had not been ok with it from the beginning. Remember in what country Serj announced he was planning on inviting gul to the soccer match... Russia! As Henry pointed out, the Russians are well placed within Armenia both implicitly and explicitly.
Second, Artsakh and the problems with azerbaijan are not once mentioned in the protocols, people should not be jumping to conclusions. At worst some of the regions around Artsakh may be given to the azeri's as a consulation, and I would be against that, but since this even this has not been talked about at the highest levels of the Armenian government, I am not going to lose sleep over it and make wild claims.
Third, azerbaijan is not on good terms with Iran, as was shown over the recent visit of the israeli president and the Iranian reaction. Not to mention the help Armenia recieved from Iran during the NK war. By using the name azerbaijan, which was given to it by the bolsheviks, azerbaijan countinues to harbor territorial claims to the real azerbaijan in northern Iran.
Fourth, the Armenia needs to have another opening to the outside world other than georgia, for obvious reasons. The railway to Iran, when finished, will be a big help and so would an open border with turkey. It is not difficult to imagine another war breaking out in georgia, which would almost certainly result in the final collapse of georgia as a country. Does Armenia really want to be caught in this situation and once again pay the price for georgian stupidity?
Fifth, Russian policy blunders are not any more nor any less than those of the other great powers. But I can tell you that they have managed to be an international power for over 300 years, and through their policies had managed to grow in terms of land and population until quite recently. Like the turks, they have a long history of imperial diplomacy and this is not their first rodeo. Russian policy planners do not see turks as a 'strategic ally' but rather an ally of convenience at the moment. As long as turkey harbors pan-turanic ideals, Russia will be opposed to them. As far as Dugin is concerned, he is allowed to say some of the things which official Moscow wants the world to know but wouldn't say aloud, other than that he is not a person who's opinions shape Russian foreign policy. Russia has always been a land power and many within the Russian foreign policy circle are students of Mackinder's 'Heartland theory', which is why they prize control of Central Asia and the Cauacasus so much. Dugin's ideas are therefore only confirming Russia's foreign policy, not making them.
Now a question for the Armenians who posted here and are against the protocols full stop. How many of you have been to Armenia? How many of you would like to live in Armenia and make sure your family continues to be Armenian rather than assimilate which is what happens in the Diaspora?
Be honest
Lies.
what lies.
"The New York Darfuri rally ended in violence, as genocide deniers attacked participants, ending in arrests by New York City police."
The poor old man was knocked out by angry supporters of the ICC decision. A police officer was wounded during the fight... why do you interntionally leave out information. i think America is tired of the BS, already.
I always cosidered Heather a gem and I have admired her ten fold of late with her beautiful inner strength and attitude towards her illness. When I watched her solo dancing that Olympics Sunday evening with Ara, a few proud tears came to my eyes for her. And ,then, to watch the tight dancing of my dearest Maro and Louis as they did 50 years ago, brought a happy twinkle to my eyes. Tom, you captured the feelings of our AYF Family!!! ABREES Harry Kushigian
There are too many part-time Armenians out there who are not very well read, and by the time you go through Armenian partisan/sectarian brainwashing and pro-SD/NATO education sessions, you get exactly the same weak, illogical and defeatist statements given by the naysayers above.
If the Russians are equally behind these disastrous protocols and normalization efforts, then:
1. Why are the Swiss, known for decades to be a leading diplomatic conduit for the United States, acting as the mediators? The Russians don't use the Swiss to advance their interests. They are confident diplomats, and conduct their diplomacy on their own!
2. How many Russian organizations (on the scale of USAID and various prominent NGOs of EU countries) can you think of that have publicly funded dialogue, reconciliation and normalization initiatives between Armenians and Turks since 2008? I know of none, but can list for your countless initiatives and conferences in Yerevan that were funded by USAID along this thread in 2009 alone!
3. Why do the protocols not mention a single Russian or Russian-friendly entity, yet list 4-5 prominent Western, pro-NATO and pro-EU entities (e.g. OSCE and the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council) through which Armenia and Turkey should advance their cooperation?!
4. Why "shall" the English text of the disastrous protocols "prevail in case of divergence of interpretation" over the Armenian and Azeri versions? How come there is no Russian version?!
5. How many articles on these issues have appeared in the Russian press since 2008? Compare that figure to the number of articles in Western newspapers and magazines. I know for a fact that the figures are heavily in favor of the West!
First, carefully read and reread Mr. Boyajian's exemplary article. Then, answer these questions adequately.
I would like to hear more about the pilgrimage to Der Zor...
It’s amazing how people like to project their own lack of knowledge and bias on others.
First of all as someone educated in the non-West and in social sciences and humanities I reject the notion that if one does not articulate and repeat words and notions of conventional “wisdom” then one is brainwashed by the west or is sold to MI6 or CIA. Furthermore I would never accept claims by so called “Activists” who appear out of nowhere and profess true “armenianness” and challenge the nationalism of others. Having participated in a revolution, fought in a major war and witnessed firsthand the horrors of the war in NKR I don’t expect anyone’s approval or label as to how Armenian or how patriotic I am.
That being said, I’m more than willing to take on the challenge to answer the questions raised by Aram above, but I do like to point out that my criticism of Mr. Boyajian’s article is based on the style (very journalistic hence shallow), analysis (simplistic) and content (misinformation) of the piece.
While it is true that he Russians do not rely on any other country to develop a smoke-screen it is not necessarily because of the confidence in their diplomacy rather Russian culture and diplomacy is based on their own version of colonialism hence treating everyone else as backwards and to utilize a frontal attack (militarily or diplomatically). The Russians don’t make any distinction between an Armenian, an Azerbaijani or Georgian, for them these are all “chernye” meaning “Black people”.
There aren’t many Russian organizations which have PUBLICLY funded events on Turkish Armenian dialogue but I personally am aware of at least four local NGOs in Armenia, which receive funding from Russian government and businesses and have, in the last two years, organized at least a dozen symposia on this issue by inviting Russian and Ukrainian experts rather than western ones to analyze this issue. The reason why these are not publicized is because, like many things the Russians do, they try to keep a low profile. I personally have attended at least two such events in 2008 (after the war with Georgia) where speakers as high ranking as Sergey Ivanov have hinted that Russia would welcome any attempts of normalization between Turkey and Armenia as long as Russian interests are protected. The fact that Russia has not objected the latest protocols means that the Russian interests are protected.
The reason why the protocols mention any Russian entity is because in such an entity Turkey is not represented. That being said it should be noted that Russia IS an active member in the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council, the BSEC, OSCE and to less extent in Council of Europe. The mentioning of an entity such as the CIS would have been counterproductive since it does not include Turkey.
As far as I recall, when it comes to international and bilateral treaties, other than the usage of the language of the sides involved almost invariably there would be a copy in English. The clause “in case of divergence of interpretation, the English text shall prevail” is a standard clause added at the end of all treaties to make sure that in the event of “misinterpretation” international courts could use that interpretation themselves. Had this treaty been between Armenia and Azerbaijan, most probably they would have had the protocols in four languages, Armenian, Azeri, Russian and English however I would strongly think that in such a case the above clause would be inserted as well.
As someone who follows the Russian media (along with Turkish and Western news sources) I can definitive say that this issue is definitely covered in major Russian print media outlets or newswires. ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti (both of which are Russian state owned) actually have extensively covered the Turkish president’s visit to Armenia for the football match, the announcement of the roadmap in April 2009 and recently the announcements of the protocols. Other than the above mentioned news services, many analytical articles have appeared in Izvestia, Pravda, Novaya Gazeta (a major opposition newspaper in Russia) and I’m sure bunch of other less known papers as well.
I do not feel strongly (for or against) the protocols. Years of experience (be that as a soldier and as a scholar) have made me cynical about the perils of nationalist rhetoric. My concern with Mr. Boyadjian’s article, as I have mentioned in my previous post, is that it comes across as an analysis which is very simplistic, full of rhetoric, lacks complete objectivity and misdirects the uninformed reader.
Aram - I think calling people "part-time Armenians" is childishly disrespectful. If you're going to engage in this type of discourse, please learn some etiquette. I will answer some of the general points you were making.
First off, Mr. Boyajian, thank you for taking the time out to reply to our comments.
Even though the Russians have lost 75 years of empire in just a few years - their palms on Armenia have a much stronger grip. It is absolutely true that Russia has lost influence everywhere you mentioned (with the exception of Belarus -- although that's a case all onto itself, similar to Armenia only because both Armenia's and Belarus's regimes need Moscow's support to stay in power, but that's for another time), but Armenia is a special case. Countries like Ukraine and Georgia don't have to worry about one huge thing the Armenians have to worry about: the Turks. In 1993 -- when Yeltsin's Russia still hadn't even decided whether or not it was going to be the same type of empire it had been or if it was going to be the liberal "friend" Yeltsin invisioned when he lead the revolution on top of a tank -- Turkey's generals were publically speaking of a plan to attack Armenia if things go bad for the Azeris. In fact, I remember Turkish jets used to fly by my house (I used to live a few miles away from the border between Armenia and Turkey). In 1994, when Armenia officially invited Russia to monitor the border, the Turkish jets stopped flying by, and they have ever since. And since then, Russians troops have monitored the Turkish/Iranian border with Armenia. Poland doesn't have a Turkey to worry about, and if it did, it has enough soldiers to mount its own offensive -- the NATO and CIS estimates claim if the entire might of the Turkish army was thrusted onto Armenia - it would take about half an hour for an Armenian defeat (and this I get from my cousin who is a high ranking officer in the Armenian army).
The simple fact that we need to be in some sort of military alliance with Russia severely restricts a lot of diplomatic (and eventually economic) ties we would otherwise be able to build with other, more democratic nations. To add to the dilemma, our good alcoholic liberal friend Boris Yeltsin is gone -- and with him any hopes of a more sincere Russia (which isn't saying much). The Russia that was able to grab Armenia before all those "color revolutions" started sprouting up was an extremely weakened Russia in 1994 -- today, and since 1998 -- Russia is more powerful and Putin has been actively playing the same old game of empire and is much more determined. If we conceeded to a military occupation with 1994-Russia, we are no match for 2009-Russia.
True, Russia is weaker than it has been since 1917 - but simply put, at this moment, surrounded by three hostile nations, we need Russia more than they need us.
I also disagree with your assumption that Azerbeijian has fallen to the Americans - the Azeris are, in my opinion, quite the rebels. They have been the only Transcaucasian state to stay compartively independent in the Russian/American game of influence. If anything, they are under Ankara's spell (but that's even an exaggeration - note how the Turks always run to Baku to reaffirm their committment to the closed border whenever there's any tension). In fact, the fact that the Turks are angry with the Azeris and think they're a thorn on their side is an open secret at this point. Granted, this won't last long and is only based on oil and pipelines, but what has America been able to arm wrestle Azerbeijian into doing? Open up it's markets for American companies? Barely!
As one last sign of how powerful Russia's word is in Armenia, look at who Robert Kocharian was on the phone with the whole night of March 1, 2007 -- when it looked like his regime was about to collapse. All he needed from Putin was the "OK" sign to launch an all out offensive on the protestors -- "who gives a shit what the Americans will say or do, I have your back, and that's all you need." Over the summer, I discussed the mistakes the opposition made in last years election, and the main regret Mamikon (who's last name I will not mention, but will say that he was suppose to be on the Yerevan city council had the ANC recognized the elections), and a whole host of opposition members had was that they didn't convince Russia and Putin that their regime was not going to endanger the grip Russia had on Armenia -- or even put it back into play the way Sakarashvilli did in the late 90s in Georgia. Had they done that, they think, Putin would have allowed for regime change. Even the opposition has accepted the supremacy of the bear in the backyard.
Trust me, I will be the first person to throw a stone at Russia -- history shows that Russia is only the 2nd worst oppressor the Armenians have had. And I have long advocated for cleaning Hayastantsi political and social cultural from all Russian elements (I try to win battles where I can). But we need some sort of protection from Turkey -- I'm not prepared to invite the United States (as much as I would prefer them over the Russians) to monitor the Turkish Armenian border -- who are they going to aim at, NATO troops on the other side? And for how long? Until the oil dries up in the Caspian?
I think the opposite would work -- Russia will probably enjoy a naturally pro-Kremlin regime in Armenia -- a democratically elected one, not one it has to continously prop up and spend money/resources on to make sure all the Is are dotted and Ts crossed. This will allow the democratic process in Armenia to work without any vote rigging and assasinations (this requires a longer explanation but not today).
As for Aram's questions -- most are irrelevant and answer/contradict themselves. But I will address them at a later time.
Sorry for an typos and lenght, I didn't proofread.
Never mind, Mr. hhas said it better than I ever could have.
Haro, the answers to all your questions can be found in my previous comments if you read them carefully enough.
Let me reiterate that if the Armenian nation wants to make legitimate, lawful claims to historic Armenian lands occupied by Turkey, the protocols cannot be signed and ratified. Once they are ratified they will be legally binding and will take legal precedence over previously signed treaties. If the Armenian authorities sign the protocols they are also signing away claims to those lands. It's very simple.
For more insight into my logic, read my blog, Footprints. Seems you've already visited it and didn't like what I wrote there, either. Good luck.
To me it sounds like someone laughing on my face and doing what they want... does it sound differently to someone else? Or should we say that's the definition of politics?
Mr. Dumanian, thanks for giving us your views. It is always good to hear from people whose opinions come from their experience of living on the frontlines-facing reality.
Why did we wait so long towage a serious war for JUSTICE for the Armenian Genocide? Was it not inevitable that some day Yerevan cronies were going to fall victim to Turkish ploys and sign away our rights?
What have our legal team of reparation experts been doing over the past 90 odd years? We've had 90 plus years to put together a negotiated set of REPARATION PROTOCOLS that are mutually agreeable between Yerevan and the Diaspora. I don't think its far fetched to assume we should have been able to at least draft some tentative agreement on the terms of justice we all share rights to over 90 years! These back and forth negotiations would have kept the good folks in Yerevan on their toes and more importantly tuned in to more sensible and collectively agreeable means of dealing with matters.
Mr. Sassounian, what have our organizational leadership in the Diaspora learned from all this protocol nonsense and how to preempt the Armenian Governments inept diplomatic maneuvering? If we take this to be a teachable moment for the Diaspora, what is the take home message assuming this protocol process is a feta complete?
It is a fact that the Armenian Nation is full of either assimilated, part-time, ignorant Armenians or sometimes confused, egoistic, overconfident, "don't steal my torch" Armenians. Very, very few Armenians stand in the middle: humble, well-read and -educated, inclusive, goal-oriented and passionate.
Neither Henry Dumanian nor hhas (aka Arthur M., an ardent Russophile) has directly and fully answered any of my questions. A combative approach is certainly destructive. You haven't proven your points, and a nonresponse is a response.
For example, Arthur, you say: "The fact that Russia has not objected the latest protocols means that the Russian interests are protected." This makes no sense whatsoever. Non-objection doesn't necessarily correspond to the protection of your interests! Using your logic, no country has ever made a strategic or tactical error! So, according to you, Russia is always right. Come on now!
And, Henry, you claim: “Azerbaijan has not fallen to the Americans – the Azeris are, in my opinion, quite the rebels. They have been the only Transcaucasian state to stay comparatively independent in the Russian/American game of influence.” This isn’t true. The US has built two major pipelines from Baku to the West and Israel. And, Azerbaijan, like Georgia, has repeatedly stated that it wants to join NATO.
Properly answering my questions will prove to you that the West and Israel (as well as NATO and pan-Turkism advocates) are much more interested than Russia in opening the borders, and thus much more behind these dialogue, reconciliation and normalization efforts. Once that happens, Armenia -- the last pro-Russian bastion in the South Caucasus -- will eventually enter the pro-Turkic NATO and EU camp. I don't think any of us want to see Armenia (remain) undemocratic, swallowed up or wiped off the map.
If you carefully read and reread Mr. Boyajian's excellent article, you would have realized that Russia is making a significant mistake by backing the disastrous protocols and not forming a TRUE honest alliance with Armenia that keeps out Turkey.
So, if his article has hit a nerve with some of you, then take this unique opportunity and write a few yourselves -- perhaps more detailed and as logical and comprehensive.
Remember: Never shoot the messenger. Focus on, strengthen and disseminate the message!
I look forward to reading your articles on these very important and timely subjects.
Leave it to the Lowell ARF, who has always been at the forefront of Armenian activism, to honor others for their activism. Bravo. Today more than ever, those in power try to delegitimize and marginalize activists who speak truth to that very same power. To brave activist Armenians like Mr. Boyajian, we say MORE POWER to you.
Armenia's situation is that of a client state. It ability to exist is dependent on the largesse of Russia, USA/West, and the Diaspora. It is a client (to varying degrees) to each of these sources of support. It is natural for each to pursue its own agenda and interests. Armenia is threading its way between often conflicting sets of interests while trying to be responsive to the needs of the people living in Armenia. There is an ebb and flow to which of these patrons wins compliance from Armenia. Right now many in the diaspora are angry because Western/USA agenda seem to be trumping the diaspora's agenda. Compliance is flowing toward opening the border both because of pressure from a key patron and because it corresponds to the economic interests of Armenia. Currently, Armenia imports approximately $250million of Turkish products while exporting just $2million to Turkey. Opening the border will improve this balance and the Armenian economy. As the Armenia economy strengthens it will be able to be more similar to a truly independent country and less of a dependency of its current patrons including the diaspora.
It is delusional and audacious for some commentors on this thread to infer that those who read, comment upon, agree with, and even author this article have not visited, lived and/or worked in Armenia and Artsakh, and hence have no authority or practical background upon which to speak. Nice try, but no cigar.
"It is a fact that the Armenian Nation is full of either assimilated, part-time, ignorant Armenians or sometimes confused, egoistic, overconfident, “don’t steal my torch” Armenians. Very, very few Armenians stand in the middle: humble, well-read and -educated, inclusive, goal-oriented and passionate." It is a fact that every nation has people like that. You need to learn how to attack ideas and opinions without attacking the individual -- it is a characteristic of a "humble, well-read and -educated, inclusive, goal oriented and passionate" person.
But to readdress your concerns: As evidence of Azerbaijian's independence -- I cited their threats and anger at Turkey whenever the Turks seem to be on some path of abandoning the Azeri stance regarding the Artsakh conflict. Your claim that Western financing of the Azeri pipelines is proof of Western domination of Azerbaijian is misguiding. The West has financed a series of oil-seeking adventures that have, ultimately, remained in the hands of the local government. (For example, Saudi Arabia shutting off the flow of oil to the U.S. using a completely American-made and financed system of oil-transport in the 70s). The Azeri president, in fact, controls (and profits from) a huge portion of oil going out of Azerbaijian and can, technically speaking, shut it off the way the Saudi's did. (This works, in a weird way, to the advantage of the Armenians -- Aliyev knows we'll be blowing up pipelines in the second war -- and thus his profits -- and would probably never start another one).
Your other claims are straight out false. Azerbaijian has shown no serious interest in joining NATO (http://www.nato.int/issues/nato-azerbaijan/index.html) -- if I'm mistaken, please point me to a credible news article that can correct me. Although, the Azeri president has flirted with NATO more than Russia would like it to -- and let's not forget that this "NATO/Israeli dominated" Azerbaijian is STILL in the CIS and STILL sends a considerable amount of officers to train in Moscow (although probably more in Turkey) and STILL has Russian controlled military facalities on its land (including the missle-radar interceptor Russia claimed Bush could use to thwart off any Iranian missiles during the controversy over the missile radar-shield he wanted in Europe).
And lastly, I never said that America and Europe aren't more interested than Russia in opening the border. The West clearly has a lot to gain (including a reason to tell Aram Hamparian and the ANCA that the Armenians and Turks are working on reconciliation, why bother recognizing the genocide and mess things up?). This, however, doesn't mean they are going to dominate the Armenian political and military scene -- far from it.
Then speak up Harry and let us know if you would move to Armenia, or if you would rather dicate how Armenians living in Armenia should do things while you are safe and sound in the u.s. or europe.
If I am wrong then by all means let me know, I am not trying to insult you or anyone else, I just want Armenians who are really concerned about this issue yet have never been to Armenia or would never move there to understand that the future of the Armenian people is not the Diaspora but the Republic of Armenia and its inhabitants. Therefore the say of the citizens of the RA carries more weight.
Chris, read my comment more carefully, I start my comment with "I agree with him..."
I don't say things just for the sake of saying it. If I did not agree with you, I would have said "Your flat wrong", which I did not say.
The problem is that most of your statements are indeed very true, bad unfortunately your conclusion or rather the solution is wrong (i.e. does not hold with your own arguments). The problem in Armenia is not a war solely of the economy/business or military level. The real problem is at the information war and Ազգի Դաստիարակութիւն level. We have been so far listening to the "now solution"s and as a result we have become a minimalist nation even when (as you have pointed out) we won the war. We have been pursuing the Genocide Recognition for presidents to just say the word "G". If we are not going to win ever, then let us not lose as cowards, demand the full demand, what will you possibly lose more.
Finally, this article is not trying to resolve the situation based on the October time-line. In my comment, I am stating that there is a high probability that the Protocol will be signed, but whether it would ratified, I am not sure. Based on the population mobility in Armenia it will be too late. Given all these how should we act if we do not bring demand and hope to the people.
Again, my point is very simple, if we want to demand anything, we should demand everything that we must, not just the half. Especially when the demand will never be answered. Also, remember that like Newtons third law, even political movements have their equal and opposite reactions. When people rise and demand, they also learn and get stronger.
P.S. Your link doesnot work, correct it so that I can see what's going on in your blog.
This accusation repeatedly rears its ugly head on this site, and is getting tedious. Not everyone is an armchair patriot, as some seem to think. I have lived and worked in Artsakh and Armenia (beyond cushy Yerevan), and will do so again. If the ROA quit its "we'll take your money, but not your collaboration " soliloquy to the Spiurk and made it easier for Diasporans to receive dual citizenship, you would see even greater Diasporan involvement, and repatriation numbers rise. The current administration's blatant disregard for the Diaspora as an indivisible part of Armenia isn't winning Serzh any integrity awards. Now let's get back to frank discussion about the article in question.
It is a fact that one of key U.S. strategic goals in the Caucasus is taking control over Azerbaijan.
Some of the most prominent and influential US geostrategists, such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, have long propagated the idea that, if the US strategic interests in the region should be promoted, then Azerbaijan must not become part of Russia's sphere of influence.
In this regard, the Armenian-Turkish protocols will certainly mean that the Nagorno Karabakh issue would be solved according to Azeri interests, making Baku even less dependent on Moscow, which is precisely what the US have been trying to achieve for more than two decades.
Of course, the grand finale of this policy would be the expansion of NATO with Azerbaijan as its most eastern member, thus significantly eroding the Russian influence and position in the wider Caucasus region.
Therefore, I wholeheartedly agree with the words of Mr. Boyajian.
On October 4th Armenian Americans in Los Angeles will have a choice: To stand proud and strong for Hai Tahd, the sacred cause of our ancient nation, or to cross the protest line to dine at Beverly Hills Hotel and raise a toast to Serj Sarkisyan as he prepares to give away, with the stroke of his pen, the Armenian rights, dignity, and security that generations of men and women have fought and died to defend.
Mr. Nolan,
What you said is a general truth. Mr. Boyajian's article is less about IF the Americans want Armenia and Azerbaijian in their sphere of influence (as I'm sure they do) but if they are about to "defeat" Russia in Armenia. Just because Brzezinski wants Azerbaijian doesn't mean they are going to get Armenia -- especially in the way Mr. Boyajian argues. (And you should take what he says lightly anyway, Brzezinski has some financial ties to Azerbaijian).
This is by far the MOST coherent and precise deceleration Ive read against these protocols and it encapsulates the fundamental arguments and premises perfectly.
This is ready to disseminate to media. Thank you ARF.
It is definitely unfortunate to see that after 90 years, we finally come together to stop something that could have been stopped 90 years ago.. It is unfortunate that we only learn to work together and support each other when it is a bit too late. Who knows if all this unified efforts going to pay off at the end?
Why would they look at us and think strong, together Armenians when we have not done that for years and years? Our organizations, our political officials, and lawyers who could have done a great deal then are just coming out now.. don't you think it is a bit late now? Even though I am a dreamer and I have a dream to have the Armenia prosper with freedom, liberty and justice for all, my heart sinks just thinking about what can happen in few days... I will continue to have faith and hope that my dream will come true sooner than never.
Thank you Mr. Sassounian for your efforts.. It is much appreciated.
Gayane
I say NO to toast to Serj Sarkisyan.. NO NO NO..
On October 3rd Armenian Americans in New York will have a choice: To stand proud and strong for Hai Tahd, the sacred cause of our ancient nation, or to - by action, or inaction - encourage Serj Sarkisyan as he prepares to give away, with a stroke of his pen, the Armenian rights, dignity, and security that generations of men and women have fought and died to defend.
I was listening to Sargsyan's speech today. I gotta say as a former supporter of his, I am ashamed I ever trusted this man.
1- Armenians attacked Ottoman citizens, army and towns
2 – Armenians declared war… and joined the enemy
3 – Armenians lost their war
4 – Ottomans won the war!
Dear Janin, Hope this passes the moderator!
Cyprus is not occupied by Turkey. Troops are there as long as TRNC wants them and needs them. Plus Turkey is allowed troops on Cyprus, so is Greece and UK and UN.
Aegean airspace is NOT Greek airspace, and they have no such claims. The dispute is about CONTROL of airspace (FAR), which Greeks claim is given to them by the international organization responsible. This is NOT an issue of sovereignity. I am sure you have no idea what this even means.
There is nothing illegal about Turkish troop presence in Cyprus. Turkey is not in violation of any law or treaty ratified by its parliament. Do you even know what international law means? Probably not. Non-recognition of TRNC by many says nothing about legality or illegality of TRNC or Turkish troops there. Again, I am sure you do not grasp what all this even means, but feel free to throw accusations and claims.
This is an excellent, accurate assessment of what is transpiring on the ground in Armenia. Apathy and indifference have taken hold of the masses, without any doubt. And the opposition has been ineffective in trying to rally them, thus increasing the sentiment of hopelessness and the idealization, rather than the realization, of justice.
Dr. Mr. Sassounian:
Thank you for demonstrating such a firm stance against the Turko-Sarkissian protocols. The Armenian Government must not cave in to external pressures or internal financial greed. Many leaders, including Netanyahu, Ahmadinejad, and even Magabe, boldly defy greater external pressures. What kind of democratic principles were followed in formulating these protocols? What advantage do Armenians get in these negotiations? The economic benefit, if any, will be bilateral and support the few mafia-style oligarchs in Armenia.
We firmly support your and the entire Armenian Nation's protests. We ask that the following be bolstered.
1. The Assembly, parting away from party flattery and upholding national interests, fulfill its duty of representing the people and reject the Protocols.
2. Massive demonstrations occur both internally and externally, convincing leaders andparliamentarians, that their electability and political survival will be compromised if the protocols are signed.
3. The energy of the Diaspora against these protocols be transmitted internally into homeland Armenia. The potential near economic gains should not blind homeland Armenians into severing their 5000 year old historical roots. Forgetting about the Genocide and ancestral Western Armenian lands will leave no ties between homeland Armenia and the Diaspora. The Diaspora will eventually feel no need to morally, economically, or politically support the Armenian governmental leaders who have their greed supercede Armenian national interests.
4. In order to come out of this crisis, the leaders have two options. First, they should invite Diasporan leaders for consultation and collaboration, replacing current positions with competent Diasporan Armenians. Alternatively, they should assume responsbility for these failures and resign from their position.
California, USA
October 1, 2009
Dear Dr. Kotchikian
The only major addition to your opinion I would add is that currently, I believe the majority of Armenians living in Armenia do agree with the normalization of ties and signing of the protocols. True, it is a fait accompli and our governments are not known to set democracy as a priority, but in this case the reason why opposition is not gathering momentum is primarily because we want our borders open. Most Armenians living in Armenia (even repartriates) have a different psyche that our brothers and sisters in the Diaspora. Our idenditity is not so much associated with the Genocide as with the victory of Artsakh, our existing set of values and an identification with our current borders, with Russia and Turkey in their current states. This year an estimated 45,000 Armenians visited Antalya in the Summer. This is without counting the regular flights to Istanbul. For better or worse, we have turned the page. I believe we will become a stronger state with this move, as expensive and painful a decision as it might be.
well written article and very level-headed approach to the issues. void of any emotion and rhetoric. I wish there would be more articles like this to really help people understand the issue in its totality rather than use the media as a forum to propagate one, and hegemonic, view of issues.
Having in mind that most of Brzezinski's recommendations regarding the Caucasus have been adopted as US policy, one cannot take his claims lightly as you suggest, especially when he is an adviser to Obama.
And, yes, the implementation of the protocols would not only gravely harm Armenia, but would also turn Russia's current disadvantage into a defeat of its strategic interests in the region. This point is very clearly depicted in Mr. Boyajian's article.
It is easy to be idealistic when one does not directly deal with the consequences of the RA government's actions. The government should have consulted much more with the Diaspora before all of this, but in the end, the opinion of those living in Armenia carries more weight than those outside. If things turn out well or poorly for Armenia, who will be the first to be effected by them?
This article mentions the territorial claims Armenia may have on turkey in the future, we have had almost 20 years to bring up the Treaty of Sevres, why have we not done so? Now that the protocols speak of 'existing borders' people are up in arms. Where have these people been the past 20 years?
The lesson from all of events of the past 20 years of our republic, nay, of our modern history should be this maxim: 'might makes right' If Armenia were more powerful we would not be dictated to, nor would we, the winners but also the rightful inhabitants of Artsakh be asked to concede to a genocidal neighbor who started the war in the first place. Armenia will be strong not through idealistic policies but rather pragmatic ones!
As Tashnags, things are too late. Why was there no Tashnag protest against Serzh when he first seized power? Tashnagtsootyoon only resigned from the government a year later because of the protocols he started and now the government is ready to sign them in two weeks. As it says, this is the last chance to protest him, but what can a group in NY do to make him change his mind about something planned in two weeks? This is a case of too little, too late. Game over.
What surprises me is that we do have newly liberated Armenian lands in Artsakh, but not many diaspora Armeians are rushing to settle those lands, but they want to lay a claim to Armenian lands that for 90 years have been settled by millions of Turks and Kurds. Unfortunately, those who perished during the genocide will not be resurrected and grandchildren of survivors of the genocide will not go back and resettle ancestral lands. So every Diaspora Armenian should first and foremost think about well being of Armenian Republic and Artsakh and ask themselves what is more important some retribution for themselves living in wealthy countries or survival of their compatriots living on Armenian land?
Very informative, and to the point.
Professor Smith's letter is generally welcome, of course.
Funny, I have yet to hear even one Armenian American academician criticize the Protocols to any appreciable degree, specifically the part about establishing a joint commission to decide whether "there was ever a genocide or whether, on the other hand, Armenians ever did naughty things to Turks and thus deserved to be massacred" (oh, excuse me - Armenia says that the commission will NOT be charged with doing THAT. Right. As if Armenia's leaders words are suddenly to be trusted.)
Still, one can understand the silence of Armenian American academicians. Look, they'll get to travel free of charge to wherever the "Joint Commission for the Study of the Genocide That Never Happened, and Even If It DidHappen, Present Day Turkey is Not Responsible" is going to meet, and get free food and lodging too. They'll get to talk incessantly, and perhaps the Turkish genocide deniers on the commission will buy their books, autographed by the author, of course.
I appreciate your efforts in performing some research and publishing this article, but unfortunately, I don't agree on most of your conclusions. Since the article is long, and the points that I disagree are many, I would not go in detail here in my comment. But here is the critical methodology. First, some of the main points you have made are based on some fake news. For example, the article of Paul Goble. This guy is in CIA! He is playing an information war upon Russians and us.
Another major point is that no border-opening relations between countries today are based on such capitulating protocols. If one likes, one can write general rules that directly derive Kars treaty precondition, Artsakh conflict precondition, Genocide denial precondition and others, without stating any of the particular names involved. Mathematicians do this all the time, they write axioms, rules and laws, without even talking about the underlying subject. I am afraid, these Protocols have done exactly that. They are a list of generalized rules. Therefore, your (possible) assumption that they have none of these precondition is not correct. By the way, your article is not clear on this, that is to say, I do not clearly read whether you are or are not assuming this. So, it’s a little confusing on this point.
Finally, you have confused the roles in the analogy between Kosovo and Arstakh. We are not the Molesevic regime, the Turks are. In this case they are the Kosovo, as well. In short, Kosovo and Artsakh are two different problems, not analogous at all.
Please, update your knowledge base with more professional research. Sorry about my comments, I am just trying to be more constructive by my criticisms. No offense, and thanks for the article.
Is this is an article from the Disney Corporation? The protocols should be rejected wholesale through as much Diasporan pressure as possible. The economic situation is already dire due to the influx of Turkish goods though indirect means. Armenian industry is already at a halt while attempting to make marginal recovery in the software and light high-tech sector below the radar of the oligarchs. Turks, not only with their "marketing prowess," but also through their intelligence network, will devastate Armenia's socio-economic infrastructure, whatever of it still exists.
The very arrogance of the article's title is astounding and infuriating. The entirety of the Armenia Diaspora is deemed "irrational", not to mention the well-informed opposition to the so-called "protocols."
You’re banking your entire thesis on this one naïve, extremely naïve assumption that has absolutely no basis in reality. “Turkey is in a situation where it has alienated its ally Azerbaijan by appearing to cut a deal with Armenia and has been making deals with Russia. It may also be under the false impression it has extracted concessions from Armenia.”
There is nothing changing at the military and intelligence layers, nor will there be change in the popular indoctrination level. I don’t know who or what your sources are, but high ranking Armenian military officers repeatedly state that Azerbaijani military echelons are integrated with the Turkish military. Such superficial “oil game” and the infantile optimism is irrelevant, probably inconsequential, and potentially hazardous. Oil and Gas, Russian/US “semi-cooperation,” all fluff compared to the ingrained ambitions that have not even begun to melt, but are instead re-enforced through constant indoctrination, through a permanently integrated military intelligence apparatus, as well as a thorough acculturation of “pan-Turkist” ideals in which much has been invested in: e.g. Azeris are even more freshly fanatical than Turks.
There is inadequate data in Turkish intelligence activities in Armenia in cooperation with another significant military and intelligence ally: Israel. I cannot believe how much this element is downplayed, the role this party has in regional and global politics that has direct bearing on Armenians. Even the recent Armenian website hacks originating in Azerbaijan were rumored by not-so-unreliable sources (from within the military again) to have had Israeli support to the extent where the assertion was the Israeli programmers were dispatched for the task, and where there is smoke, there is definitely fire.
Georgia is the only entity that has been crippled at least militarily, which is only a temporary and irrelevant anyhow. Georgian infrastructure and prosperity isn’t needed for Georgia to carry out the task of a regional blockage for Armenia, and it will continue to serve as the member of the 4 way military pact between Israel, Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Georgia. Watch Russia’s lethargic “realpolitik” neglect and see Georgia maintain a pro-“American” posture despite recent bombardments: i.e. The main asset is the anti-Russian sentiments which were further exacerbated with the recent Ossetia conflict.
And where in your article is it mentioned the long-term geopolitical designs concerning the re-emergence of a “Neo-Ottoman Empire” as it is being publicized by a high profile CIA endorsed author? It's not just Goble. Now it's George Friedman with the grandiose "Neo-Ottoman" nightmare scenario as the Russian counterbalance.
It is also very deceptive to say that the kars and Moscow treaties are not evoked in the protocols. That is irrelevant, and the Vienna convention is also inconsequential, since the Kars and Moscow treaties were carried on as an agreement between Russian and Turkish imperialists, with Armenia as a token protectorate. As the matter of fact, that is precisely what Armenia is currently, a protectorate of Russia with no domestic strategic assets to call its own, totally under Russian control in terms of foreign affairs and military defense. Therefore, not only the symbolic dates coinciding with the Kars Treaty is relevant, but the so-called "Vienna convention" is as effective in this Russo-Turkish dominated scenario as was the Treaty of Versaille or Sevres. To be continued
To Haro Mherian,
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
If I had removed any reference to a Turkish recognition of Abkhazia, it would not have altered my thesis that the entire region is in dynamic change. The Abkhazian reference was just another example, widening my claim of regional shifts. I could have avoided a Paul Goble reference and simply stayed with the Turkish reference (see article: Cenk Baslamis writing in the Turkish daily Milliyet) or wasted several paragraphs describing how many Abkhazia-bound Turkish ships have been stopped by Georgian petrol boats over the past year, with a Turkish response threatening Abkhazian recognition, but I did not waste the keystrokes. By the way, a CIA planted story does not automatically invalidate its accuracy.
You state, “Another major point is that no border-opening relations between countries today are based on such capitulating protocols.” You have based your claim that the Protocols are an Armenian capitulation, but you have not proved this, making it simply a guess. Thus your conclusion follow as a guess-based conclusion, a mis-deduction. You could be correct by accident, but you haven’t proven anything. As a mathematician, you must clearly see this.
You also state, “If one likes, one can write general rules that directly derive Kars treaty precondition, Artsakh conflict precondition, Genocide denial precondition and others, without stating any of the particular names involved. Mathematicians do this all the time, they write axioms, rules and laws, without even talking about the underlying subject.” A mathematician is generally is not required prove the underlaying existence of the number "1" in order to simply claim that 1+1=2. It is clear to all the numerical value "1" exists. However, none of what you claim, even in extrapolation, is stated in the Protocols. One can base conclusions on illusions, but they don’t reflect reality. The Protocol does not state anything you claim. The text is available for all to see.
And you wrote, “Finally, you have confused the roles in the analogy between Kosovo and Arstakh. We are not the Milosevic regime, the Turks are. In this case they are the Kosovo, as well. In short, Kosovo and Artsakh are two different problems, not analogous at all.” Please re-read the forth paragraph. Nowhere do I even hint at a comparison of Kosovo and Artsakh or the Milosevoc regime with either Turkish or Armenian governments. The Molesevic reference was used regarding his zero-sum “no, no, no” response to international pressure.
I respectfully suggest you re-read the article.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
To Armen,
No, the article is not from Disney Corporation. What “should be” and “what are” are quite different. It would have been nice if there were an Armenia that could dictate its demands. That Armenia doesn’t exist. Armenia exists in a rough neighborhood and subject to pressure from major powers. Turkey is subject to such pressures as well. As much as you might want Armenia to have the ability to reject the Protocols, Armenia was part of creation of those Protocols. Armenia can’t simply say, no. As much as one may or may not agree with the Protocol, they now exist and there is no indication Armenia will not ratify them, and in short order.
Armenia can enact and must enforce without prejudice, protectionist laws and trade policies that would mandate controlling specific imports and technologies, thus heavily discouraging foreign take-over of local markets, companies, and what remains of strategic parts of the economy.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
More fear mongering.... remember the movie "Russians are coming"? It is absurd to observe so many so violently react to the idea of normal and neighborly relationships.
With all due respect, you would have done better, David, had you stuck with a more neutral stance and informed us with your usually excellent source work, but you chose to take a stand, that calls for appropriate responses. It's hard for me to read you as an advocate of acceptance. The position of semi-neutral resignation is more dignified: "Yes, we are too small and weak right now, but we should still not try to be so enthusiastic about swimming into the shark's mouth."
The entire premise behind forcing such protocols as well the overly enthusiastic reception of these protocols by our own government is precisely the signature of a governmet who has no concept of development of diplomacy, of developing industry, let alone one with any idea about what to do to take measures of economic protectionism. All the best Armenian economists are here in California!
It's also naive to assume that the NATO block that is backing Turkey, a virulently anti-Russian entity, will not further encroach at the intelligence layer, as all indicators show it to have done so significantly as it is. Need I remind you of the constant repetition of the "Central Eurasian Project" and the more clearly stated "Neo-Ottomanism"? These are the actual ambitions, and it is a huge gamble to depend on Russian balancing acts. Turkey, or rather the block to which it belongs despite all appearances it tries to create, is gaining the upper hand layer by layer.
Looking back at the economy, the entire agricultural sector has been converted to a US Aid dependent format, the details of which can be read in any anti US aid protest or suit freely available on the Internet. As a prime example, the "Monsanto-ization of the seed supply" is a common factor in all "3rd world countries" receiving aid (making Armenia subject to future "embargos", and Armenia is yet another unfortunate victim. In other words, nothing will be left of the Armenian economy that can possibly take a protectionist format, and this "opening of the relations" gives this block total access to Armenia's economy at a grander scale than before.
On diplomatic grounds, it is naive to think that Armenia has no means to resist. Any nation with a seat the UN now certainly does, but if these measures are accepted, then it will not be long before there is indeed no turning back. There are numerous cases where a smaller state has been able to wield their diplomatic capital if the proper steps are taken, but, with no surprise to anyone with any level of knowledge or cognizance at lower than superficial level, the little "March riot" and the irrational outbursts by the "opposition" amassed great capital for the NATO block. This is the fuel that is driving Serge at this moment, and he does seem to be less than reluctant to follow the pressure lead.
One other item worth the mention: Samvel Hariyunian's poignant (Armenian language, alas) article highlighting the factual links between the current Protocols and the past (and fully in force) treaties of Kars and Moscow in particular needs to be addressed: The main point made is that Armenia is seen by Turkey and Russia as a protectorate, and not an independent state. The acceptance of these current measures amounts to an official affirmation by Armenia's own government of Armenian protectorate status. It is, once again, misleading to state that the protocols don't spell out the recognition or not of past treaties. The context in which the "protectorate" treaties were forged is again repeated where Turko-Russian hegemony, with control of Georgia and Azerbaijan this time by the "Allies", which makes Russia's position weaker than the last post-WWI episode. I say that Turkey will be brazen enough to enforce past treaties with newly amassed economi, political, military/intelligence strength and alliances. I have no choice but to repeat these points.
Another comment that I would like to add the Misolsevic comment: Germany's role in the Balkans, particularly in the break-up of Yugoslavia, is what made it an inevitability for Milosevic to have to react as he did. He was a nationalist Serb who wanted to protect the territorial integrity of what remained of Yugoslavia. The main bait must have been Serbian Kraina, but the amount of trash written on the topic truly makes it hard to discern. It appears, nevertheless, that it was already decided that Belgrade was to be bombarded before Milosevic ever took the seat. http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/carr/carr.html is a good start.
In other words, premptive diplomacy is the current norm, not the exception, and that is the case with the anti-Russian block and the project of isolating Russia. Armenia is simply a small part of this game, and, im my opinion, the Protocols actually mean that Russia is in the position of capitulation at least nominally. Russia, under your mathematical formulas, would have no need for such concessions, and these are concessions. Armenia is under total pressure to concede with no noticeable any Turkish loss. Russia is now in the position to once again share the caucasian hegemony due to NATO sponsorship of the Turkish party. That is truly all, in my opinion, this amounts to.
1. The Ottoman Empire ruled over Armenia, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and other territories for over 300 years.
2. The Ottoman Empire subjected native Armenian citizens to outrageous taxes, regular rapes and massacres.
3. The Armenians just like the Syrians, Palestinians and Lebanese, wanted their country and their freedom back.
4. The Armenians asked and pleaded for their civil rights, all the while contributing to the economic, architectural and social embetterment of Turkey.
5. The Ottoman Empire taking advantage of the chaos of WWI carried an organized Genocide, massacred 1.5 million Armenian men, women and children, took their country (6 Armenian provinces in Turkey) and drew its illegal borders (now mentioned in Protocols).
6. We had no army! We declared no war! We had Armenian soldiers that served in the Russian Army against the Ottoman Empire. Wouldn't you?
7. We had some pockets of resistance, of citizens who decided to put up a fight instead of being slaughtered like sheep. Wouldn't you defend yourself and your family against sure death? The Ottoman government called this "rebellion".
8. One country did declare indirect war with the Ottoman Empire: The United States of America. (along with Britain and France).
9. The Ottoman Empire lost WWI. Gave back Lebanon, Syria, Palestine....
10. President Woodraw Wilson drew the map of Armenia at the Sevres Treaty, awarding ALL SIX ARMENIAN PROVINCES to the their rightful owners the Armenians. But there were no Armenians to claim them... they were dumped in the Der Zor deserts! Only their bones remained.
11. Europe announced Talaat, Enver and the Ittihad regime as War Criminals.
12. Under a European decree, Turkey held Court Martial of the Young Turks. During the trials, TURKISH eyewitnesses talked about the atrocities dealt by the Young Turks to the Armenians.
12. THE TURKISH governement found the Young Turks guilty of organized massacres of the Armenians and war crimes, and exiled them to Europe.
13. Again, The Turks themselves, found Talaat, Enver and the Young Turk regime GUILTY.
14. Ataturk took over the country, changed the Turkish alphabet so that it now used the English Alphabet. (In a few decades noone could read the old books or interpret them)
15. History books were ordered with no information written for the years 1914-1916.
16. A whole country was brainwashed and asked to forget that their own people had condemned the Armenian Genocide.
17.Armenian churches were dessicrated, turned into stables or mosques.
18.Armenians were forced to take out the "ian" from their last names. Most of them would no longer use their native language.
Murat,
None of this would have started if the Turks' ancestors did not overtake our homeland of more than 4,000 years. If you take over other people's lands and rape and abuse its people, it would be their God given right to defend themselves. But we had no army! We had no government to declare war! Our efforts to regain our independence were deplorable compared to the hunger of the Ottoman Empire to swallow us. How long can one hide behind lies and distorted facts? All you have to do is read the historical eye witness accounts, the Young Turk trial records and a myriad of other books.
We are not bad people . We are just people, who wanted to live free.
Finally a voice of reason. Armenia has a lot more to gain from a normalization than Turkey, orders of magnitude more. Recognizing the international borders of your neighbor is not capitulation. Giving up dreams of Greater Armenia (while complaining about neo-Ottomanism!) and hoping to win the round two WWI, is not capitulation, it is coming out of dark ages into the modern new world. Armenia needs to choose between being a Russian protectorate and a piece in their great chess game, or a country on its own, exploting its historical and cultural ties and its geography for its own good, not for a resurgent imperial Russia.
What Oskanian is now saying is essentially a pomposity for his likely presidential bid in four years. His Civilitas Foundation has been created to make himself more noticeable prior to his bid. Listen carefully to the format of his speech, as well as salutations he uses in his capacity as just head of an NGO: “Dear People,” “Dear Compatriots,” etc. As a spineless, flip-flopping, subservient, yet cunning, individual, he has never believed in most of what he said yesterday. For instance, while promoting his compilation of speeches in Spring of 2009, he told an audience in Aleppo, Syria, that “I do not have a problem recognizing the current Turkish-Armenian borders.” Miraculously, that speech has disappeared from Civilitas’ website! Yet, during the speech you just watched he made a contradictory remark: “With one sentence, we completely cede our historical rights. We even close the possibility, no matter how formal, of restoring historical justice.”
Oskanian was brought to Armenia’s political fore from Los Angeles 18 years ago by those supragovernmental internationalist power elites who tend to control societies and direct world events in conformity with their maniacal dreams for One World Government with them as Rulers. Oskanian does what he’s told to do thus promoting their sick globalist agenda, not the genuine interests and aspirations of the Armenian nation and statehood. Following external orders, he decreased the effectiveness of Armenia’s foreign ministry to a disastrous level, did away with presentable, knowledgeable and, most importantly, dedicated diplomats, because powerful foreign policy, along with other strong state functions, is anathema for these sinister forces, and, consequently, for Oskanian as their cabal.
His foundation is a bogus, a government-approved think-tank serving the interests of these forces. The foundation’s Board includes a famous genocide denier representing the American Jewish Committee, Peter Rosenblatt. He can give an eloquent speech about justice and democracy, yet, he is the one, as Robert Kocharyan’s chief foreign policy advisor for 10 years, who initiated these harmful diplomatic talks with Turkey in 2007, which resulted in devastating protocols currently on the agenda.
Armenians in Armenia and Diaspora, beware of this individual!
Fundamentally, Mr. Davidian is on the mark. I would add that as an American first, it is great that my country vigorously pursues its own interests in the Caucasus and that pursuit results in needed change for Armenia. Armenia is a client state with 3 primary patrons--Russia, US/West, and the Diaspora. Each patron has the expectation that its largesse entitles it to exercise influence in both the internal and external affairs of Armenia. The Armenian leadership realises it can never truly be an independent country being whip-sawed between Patrons that it desparately needs to continue in its marginally sustainable existence. The economic stranglehold on Armenia must be broken. Turkey is exporting to Armenia about $250m (USD) while Armenia is only exporting $2m (USD) to Turkey (I recognize stats from this part of the world are suspect--I hope the situation really isn't this bad). Opening the border can't possibly make those stats worse. Armenian exports can only go up from here. A stronger economy less dependent on handouts with controlling strings is vital to Armenia becoming a sustainable entity. Opening the border will strengthen the Armenian economy and lessen its status as a chronic client state on life support existing only by the largesse of others. Armenia is the big gainer in this transaction. Getting Armenia strong enough to stand own its own feet and populate its current territory should be the first order of concern. Armenia needs that open border to achieve real independence and viability.
Sireli Tim,
You are interested in Azerbaijan so you probably know that a few years ago America created what will someday be a a NATO navy based in Baku. It's called the Caspian Guard. The US used the excuse that it needed to catch drug runners and other bad guys but the real reason is something else I think. It was all Donald Rumsfeld's idea. He was the American secretary of defense. You have to read these links to learn more if you don't know already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Guard_Initiative
To: Hagopn,
It is rather telling you came to the conclusion the Armenian Diaspora is irrational considering it was Yusuf Kanli of the Turkish daily Hurriyet I used as an example irrationality. The term irrationality in the title refers to basing conclusions in the absence of cold sobering analysis. In the last few paragraphs of my analysis, I refer to opinions from Armenia regrading the benefits of an open border without a shred of analysis. This is a clear example of irrationality. These Protocols didn’t simply fall out of the sky, but were part of a process. I attempted to shed light on that process.
My thesis is that there are monumental changes in the region, including a Russian head of state having visited Turkey (Putin in 2004) which has not happened in 500 years. Enough political pressure exists because of the alignment of end result by major world powers that forced the creation of this Protocol. If my thesis were as simply-minded as you suggest, I would not need a 15 page analysis, but could get by with a single page rant.
The role of profits from hydrocarbon transport is neither “superficial” nor “infantile” and will trump the pan-Turkish mythos as fast as it was created. The region is in dynamic change and your claim that Turkish and Azerbaijani military/intelligence/indoctrination cooperation has some over-riding influence in the current region's dynamic change, and its role in the Protocol, has not been demonstrated. The article is not an anti-Turkish, anti-Azerbaijani, anti-Armenia rant for that would not help explain why these Protocols exist.
The Protocol is not an covert Israeli plan, nor does it have any significant role in its creation. Will it benefit from it, it may. It is irrelevant to the diplomatic and regional power politics if Israeli hackers exist or not. I suggest you write an article on the subject of Israeli intrigue to inform and help understand these Protocols.
You ask, "And where in your article is it mentioned the long-term geopolitical designs concerning the re-emergence of a “Neo-Ottoman Empire” as it is being publicized by a high profile CIA endorsed author? It’s not just Goble. Now it’s George Friedman with the grandiose “Neo-Ottoman” nightmare scenario as the Russian counterbalance." Referring to George Friedman Neo-Ottoman Empire will not help understand why these Protocol exist today any more than his Greater Poland does, or his inevitable US-Japan-"Neo-Ottoman" war that will erupt within a 100 years. I might as well have used biblical prophecies.
You claim, "It is also very deceptive to say that the kars and Moscow treaties are not evoked in the protocols". There is NO mention of these in the Protocol. If they were, this Protocol would not be a diplomatically acceptable document. As much as some Turks or Armenians wished the words "Treaty of Kars" or "Treaty of Moscow" were mentioned in the text, they are not found in the Protocol.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
I fully agree that the borders should be opened, but disagree with any conditions.
We are neighbors, we should simply open our borders. That has been Armenia's stand for 18 years, and it was the right one. Now, while I could put off genocide recognition a couple of years by agreeing for a stupid commission to study the subject, if there was a deadline and some very firm rules for the commission to function, I certainly don't see a point in reaffirming a border treaty signed between Russia and Turkey. I'm not saying Armenia should make any land claims (which it hasn't), but yes, reaffirming this treaty is absolutely unnecessary for opening the border, and certainly cannot ever be a good thing. Those are todays borders, they were set by others, and that is that, but to actually sign that we also agree to them is like saying we agree to the aftermath of the genocide.
So I say forget these strange preconditions that were injected by Turkey to somehow try to make themselves feel better, and safer from the consequences of their past. If anyone should need to be made to feel better it is the Armenians, who have gotten (to put it very very mildly) the very very short (and bloody) end of the stick from Turkey.
fyi - Weekly: what street is cross street for the site of the protest on Saturday? M
I campaigned for and supported Obama for many reasons, not just his promise to recognize the genocide properly. I did in my heart of hearts, however, believe him to be just, honorable, and honest and as such thought he would be the champion Armenia had been waiting for. Well, not only was I dead wrong about that, I now fear MORE for the very existence and survival of Hayastan and Artsakh than I ever have. What a strange, horrible turn of events.
Hye, Sadly, the Armenia leadership are still in the 'comunist' mode of leadership - they do not share with their own citizens of Armenia what the leadership is facing - albeit their decisions, today, will directly affect all their lives, lives of their own children, their descendants, as well the future history of the Armenian nation. Justice, sought for nearly 100 years, for the Armenian Genocide will be denied to our millions slaughtered, denied to our survivors who lived with all the memories of our Genocide. As for the Turkish denials... lies, over all these years, the Turk shall have succeeded!
Armenian patriots, through all the years of our history, whose selfless efforts far outshine such as a Sarkisian, share with us the pain of a Sarkisian's dishonest behavior today! How shall our Armenian history record a Sarkisian - but as a traitor to his own people... a traitor, for all the wrong reasons. Manooshag
It seems that in negotiations -- there are always preconditions. Each party has a sense of what they want and a sense of what they are willing to give and not give. International negotiations are clearly a quid pro quo arena. Speaking about not having preconditions is nothing more or less than posturing for one consitituency or another. Armenia's situation gives it little to offer at the negotiating table--weakness places the nascent state in that position. Armenia needs to get the border open-it needs to develop its economy-it needs to develop good governance. Once these essentials are met and Armenia is not in such a weak and dependent condition then it will be able to have a much stronger negotiating position. A sense of outrage at the other party--no matter how justified--is not a currency that gets you very much. The only leverage Armenia has at the negotiating table is provided by the USA. It is US and EU pressure that has Turkey talking to Armenia. Without the USA's interest in opening an additional energy transit corridor Turkey would have little reason to open the border and allow the strengthening of Armenia.
To Murat:
I have a question. You wrote, “Finally a voice of reason.” Are you stating an opinion on the analysis or assuming positive judgment has been given to either the existence of the Protocol or the eventual border opening? In an analogy, one would not assume that if an author wrote an piece analyzing the origins of the HIV virus, the author supports the existence of the virus. I ask this because your following statement, “Armenia has a lot more to gain from a normalization than Turkey, orders of magnitude more.”. This something that nobody knows, neither you nor I. If recent history is any guide, a wide open border may not serve the people of Armenia, noting the last few paragraphs of my analysis.
A “Greater Armenia” such as Sevres/Wilsonian Armenia based on re-negotiating the end of WWI may exist in the dark ages, but genocide reparations will not got away. For example, the text in www.regionalkinetics.com need only be modified ever so slightly after Protocol ratification. Armenians will certainly not end work for genocide recognition.
Armenian cannot simply ignore Russia as if a choice even existed. The reality today is that Russia owns strategic parts of Armenia’s infrastructure. Whether this should have taken place or not, it’s now a moot point. With the Turkish border blockade, this may have been inevitable anyway.
David Davidian
Sireli Tim Nolan, again,
There's a really smart piece that shows that Azerbaijan is serious about NATO, even if it exercises some caution with Russia. There are lots of pieces like this one. Here it is:
http://www.cacianalyst.org/?q=node/1093/print
Published on Central Asia-Caucasus Institute Analyst (http://www.cacianalyst.org)
AZERBAIJANI PRESIDENT REAFFIRMS INTENTION TO JOIN NATO
By Fariz Ismailzade (04/23/2003 issue of the CACI Analyst)
\"We have been doing this work since 1994, but never made much noise about this\", said the president, referring to Azerbaijan\'s efforts to join the alliance. In the past, he seldom addressed this issue personally. In 1999, presidential advisor Vafa Guluzadeh was the first to introduce the idea of inviting NATO military bases into Azerbaijan. Since then, Azerbaijan’s relations with Russia have warmed up, prompting many analysts to think that Azerbaijan has put the idea of joining NATO into its backburner. Yet, President Aliyev\'s remarks come as strong evidence of the country\'s steady course toward joining the alliance.
Bruce Jackson informed the Azerbaijani President that after the Prague summit of NATO, the focus of the alliance shifted toward the Balkans and the countries of the former Soviet Union. Of the latter, he more specifically pointed out Ukraine, Georgia and Azerbaijan. \"If we can draw significant attention to the Caucasus region and start discussions on these countries, we can include these countries into the list of possible candidates for admissions by 2006-2007\", said the guest. According to Jackson, Ukraine and Georgia have been coordinating their efforts to join the alliance, urging Azerbaijan to do the same.
Azerbaijan\'s relations with NATO began in 1994, when the country jointed NATO\'s Partnership for Peace program. Since then, Azerbaijan has been an active participant of both NATO\'s military exercises and political summits. The most vivid evidence of Azerbaijan\'s commitment to NATO was in 1999, when the President of Azerbaijan traveled to the Washington summit of NATO in spite of international pressure on the alliance because of the Kosovo war. Yet out of the three Caucasus republics, Georgia has been perceived by the West as the most eager to join the alliance.
After the September 11 terrorist attacks, the cooperation between Azerbaijan and NATO has been on the rise further, mostly due to the boost of military cooperation between the U.S. and Azerbaijan. It was made possible thanks to the waiver of section 907 of the Freedom Support Act by the U.S. Congress, allowing direct U.S. assistance to the government of Azerbaijan for the first time since 1992. Azerbaijan also sent peacekeeping troops to Kosovo and Afghanistan as part of its military cooperation with NATO.
At the meeting, President Aliyev mentioned the fact that Azerbaijan has been together with the US on the war against international terror. \"You know that we immediately joined the coalition against Iraq. From all this, you can conclude that Azerbaijan has decided to join NATO and join with the US, even at times when other NATO members chose not to\", Aliyev said.
Meanwhile, Minister of Defense of Azerbaijan Safar Abiyev is travelling to Washington in May to discuss bilateral military cooperation. The visit will take place at the invitation of U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and will include \"many suggestions\" that the American side has to offer to Azerbaijan. Abiyev also expressed his view that the issue of Azerbaijan\'s admission to NATO might also be on the agenda during his visit to the US.
Recent policies of the Azerbaijani government show that the nation\'s leadership sees the future of the country together with the West and within the western security system. Joining NATO would certainly benefit both sides as it would bring stability and security to the conflict-torn Caucasus region and further integrate the region into European political and economic structures.
This, however, requires much work ahead, including reforms and progress in the field of democratization. This was the message sent to the Azerbaijani leadership by Bruce Jackson. The latter urged the Azerbaijani government to intensify the fight against corruption and the conduct of free and fair elections. President Aliyev in return, said that these works are being done anyway, not depending on the fact whether Azerbaijan will be admitted to NATO or not. \"We are building a democratic legal and independent country and what you said will certainly be reflected in Azerbaijan\'s life,\" concluded the President.
Hagopn wrote: “It is, once again, misleading to state that the protocols don’t spell out the recognition or not of past treaties.”
Nowhere in he Protocols are the words Kars, Moscow or past treaties spelled out. They won’t be spelled out without Armenia's permission. The only thing misleading is to claim something exists when it does not or worse, to base a hard conclusion on something that does not exist.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
David, thank you for the response. I reread your article. On the irrationality, thank you for the clarification.
1. The monumental changes mentioned, particularly the unprecedented visit of the Russian head of state to Turkey, are precisely why the concern over the revival/re-affirmation of the Treaties between the two states that involved Armenia, and I believe that Shant Hariyunian (sorry, I typed the wrong name incorrectly earlier) is correct in his article where he insists that these “warming of relations” between the two primary interested parties in the region are considering Armenia their protectorate. The protocols are a first step toward the realization of this scenario. Your these may not be simple minded, but it is one dimensional in that it does not take any indicators of covert and longer term ambitions of larger political and financial blocks mentioned into account.
2. I know what your intentions are, always working on overdrive to appear impartial and objective. Again, profits from “hydrocarbon” may not be deemed as superficial, but the insistence on putting comparatively short-term material and second tier energy concerns over long term trade route, territorial hegemony and related race pollitics, particularly that of ignoring race-related politics in this very much so contested region, is one-dimensional thinking. I am surprised that you, someone with proven knowledge of Turkic politics, would ignore the connections, but you frustrate me by consistently doing so. I disagree that the impact of race politics has not been demonstrated. The Uyghur issue in China is directly related. The attempted but thwarted Uzbek/Khazakh unification attempts (at least two attempted and thwarted referendums) are directly related. Azerbaijan’s leading party, a party of former communist apparatchiks, has to conform to the anti-Armenian rantings of racist ideologues and has adopted a completely race oriented platform despite the reality of _their_ party’s pro-oil profit (concentrated oligopoly) platform. The military is, in fact, integrated. The results will be made evident if and when the Russian isolation homework is finished in the repeatedly touted “Central Eurasian” efforts.
3. As to Israeli involvement, you are turning the blind eye on the recent Israeli pre-dominance in Georgia military operations in the South Ossetia affair. That alone would be a good indicator for anyone with military intelligence background. Israel’s direct involvement in the protocol process not is relevant, nor is it provable that Israel has no involvement. What is provable and widely publicized is Israel does have a role in the region and there is a 4 way military defense pact in place. Covert participation is a given. Israel’s desire, in my opinion, coincides with US, UK, and German ambitions; i.e. You will see more action taken after Armenia is eliminated as an impediment, as a solid and exclusively Russian foothold in the region to expand the “Central Eurasian” concept to its full political extent. There is just too much talk on this on behalf of key think tanks and associated authors.
4. In your dismissal of the importance of Goble’s and Friedman’s writings as significant in this context, you insist on looking at the protocols or any related action on behalf of the 2 regional powers in a vacuum. I claim no expertise, but even as a layman I recognize that to be a dangerous practice within the sphere of political analysis.
5. In your last paragraph, you again dismiss, despite all the contextual arguments, the concerns over the re-affirmation and re-enforcement of the past treaties of Moscow and Kars, in particular. You say, once again, that “as long as these things are not named, they are not there nor can they be ever evoked.” That is a patent falsehood when seen from the historical perspective. Powers do what they wish, and they can use unrelated laws to enforce another unrelated set of laws at a whim. From this angle, even if the rejection of the Protocols is merely symbolic, it is a good enough reason to reject them and show some sort of solidarity at the popular level.
This is linear and non-contextual thinking with total emphasis only on the superficial, relatively short-term, and from the historical perspective, the less relevant aspect of specific commodities and the control thereof. I simply don’t think these controllers are as short-sighted. They have longer term imperialist ambitions, and I truly believe that the Protocols are part of this long drawn out process. I think the authorship by authors in the employ of key intelligence services are a significant factor, but are only of any value when looked at from the greater context of the competitive Central Asian ambitions. I urge you to at least acknowledge the possibility.
Armenian people's historical rigths are not a gamble that you, Serge Sarkissian can play as you have done at casino of Nice when you were defence Minister(more than one million dollar lost)after the confirmed sources of the french armenian owners of casino of Nice.So there is a huge price to pay for betrayal of Armenian people's historical rights
Gary, I partally disagree with your statement from the short term, and completley disagree from the longer term perspective. Imperialist ambitions over the control of the Silk Road trade and transportation routes, not to mention direct territorial and political control over the Eurasian vastness, is an age old "western" ambition. The main impediment is Russia and its sphere of influence, of which are left Byelorussia and Armenia as solid partners. That solidity is now endangered by the overall process of Turkish ascendency with the aformentioned western sponsorship. Piece by piece, Russian, and eventually Chinese, control of key territory will be wrested and Russian isolation will be complete. That is the grander picture. Armenia's role will be that of the same old post-WWI "protectorate" - the "protection" of which will be, no doubt, a shared duty - as agreed on on not one, but 2 treaties - between Turkey and Russia. This is a major, major concession on behalf of Russia on territorial control. As I said, even if the Armenian protest is symbolic and overwhelming at the popular level, that will be future grounds to reject and rescind the political decision on behalf of this anyhow semi-legitimatized administration. Optimistically, you are correct that we can use Turkish routes, but are we prepared. Not a chance. We know we are tno. The state infrastructure, particularly in terms of competent personnel especially in the economic field, is decimated by oligarch "politics." Will Turkish politicians and ideologues abandon and thaw out their anti-Armenian program? Who knows, but it isn't likely.
Gary, in your reply to me, you are assuming two things which I disagree with. When you say "in negotiations — there are always preconditions", I even disagree with the premise that there needed to be negotiations. It should have been a simple, "are you ready to open the border, or not"? Turkey needs to open it's border due to pressure, and that Armenia is making concessions while Turkey is not, is completely backwards to me. Your second assumption is that opening the border will "allow the strengthening of Armenia".
The border has been closed for almost 2 decades. Trade flows anyway, just via Turkey, and as the numbers indicate, they highly favor Turkey. It will be good for Armenia if Turkey charges Armenia less than Georgia for transit fees, but it's not something I would depend on. I also would not depend on the border staying open if Turkey's whim changes. Nobody is mentioning the massively depressed areas of Turkey adjacent to Armenia, which have themselves petitioned for an open border to boost their economy, and stem their massive emigration that mirrors Armenia's own. Believe me, this will be great for Turkish business, and their border regions.
Anyway, as David says though, it's probably a done deal, but these are my rambling thoughts...
Sam and Christian, thanks for the added remarks/confirmations. Sam you are absolutely right, it seems that people in Armenia have managed to move on and hence the reason why there is apathy and disconnect (and not because the Genocide does not matter for Armenian who live in Armenia)
Manooshag, I understand your point but then the question that comes up is, who decides who is a traitor and who, a hero. When you look at the popular interpretation of Armenian history we have characters such as Vasag, Meroujan, Mleh who are labeled "enemies of the Armenian nation" but when examined closely those people were not really traitors, rather individuals who had a different approach on national issues.
Since we’ve had an independent state we’ve been witnessing this issue rising almost on a regular basis (no matter who was the president). This goes to what I had mentioned in the article. The interest of Armenians and the interest of Armenia do not always coincide and this is the reality that the Diaspora has not come to terms with. I am in no way supporting or condoning the protocols just making an observation that Armenia and the Diaspora are different entities with different concerns and priorities.
Եւ այսպէս բոլորիս յայտնի եղաւ որ Սերջ Սարգսեանը անկարող է նոյնիսկ մի պարզ մտափոխութիւն անել, ախր մի ծաղկի համար նրան չեն էլ խանգարում իւր ազգակից կիններին, ծերունիներին եւ մարդկանց ֆրանսա-Թուրքավարի ոտնակող անել, անասուններու նման ծեծել եւ շպրտել մի կողմ։
Վայ այդ անիծած ծաղիկն էլ հենց Սուրբ Կոմիտասը թքնելու է վրան, վերցրու՛ պէտք չէ՛, տար քո խիզախ ընկերոջ Աթաթուրքի արձանի տակ տիր։
Դու ին՞չ խայտառակութիւն բերիր մեր սուրբ պապերի գլխին։
It is utter defeatism to say it's a done deal. Nothing is a done deal at this petty level, even if the bloackge due to public outcry is merely symbolic, even if the opening of borders - in economic terms - is only legalistic at best. When will Armenians learn that they have enough punch if they simply show some degree of solidarity?
David, it specifically says "reconfirming territorial integrity and inviability of borders", then later "confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law".
So I don't see how this isn't recognition of the treaties in question, even if it doesn't actually say Kars/Moscow. It certainly isn't talking about Sevres... so how do you figure?
It's puzzling to put it mildly to read rantings of certain self-styled experts. Instead of discussing arguments at hand we are invited to digress into multiple non-sequitur arguments - Miloshevich, alleged Israeli hackers' attack on Armenian web sites, Friedman, Gobledigook and ad nausea. Apropos, Miloshevich was not, repeat, was NOT, a Serb nationalist.
The other amazing part of this discussion is how stubbornly some can insist on things that are not in protocols. There is no word on Kars and Moscow Treaties in the published document and yet some people keep parroting the nonsense claim of the Turkish propaganda with no leg to stand on. They may as well claim that Armenia recognized territorial integrity of Turkey in 1992 and by acceding to the UN Charter and Helsinki Accords affirmed the venomous treaties.
The historical commission only seems to be a concession, as David writes quite correctly. This time the Armenian side has enough evidence to sustain the argument of the Genocide not with US senators and congressmen but with Turks themselves in an open discourse. Why should we be afraid of their falsifications and revisionist claims? Is not that what the Dat would eventually require - international court hearings on the Genocide? Will Turks try to delay the recognition? They might as well but they cannot postpone indefinitely. For some impatient Armenians recognition by the US seems to be more important than recognition by Turkey. I would only warn them that the US recognition is not likely to be anything different from that of the TARC.
A. from Kosovska Mitrovica
The picket will take place on Madison between 50th and 51st.
Well, I find all this fairs unwarranted. These protocols are not so bad for Armenia and we can convert them into plus - and Armenia never will be Ottomanized - maybe Eastern Turkey will be rearmenized, but not contrary
Raffi, you are smart to challenge any assumption . I have the assumption that all negotiations between countries involve trade offs. I can't substantiate that assumption. I neither have the personal insight or sufficient information about international negotiations to ever get beyond anecdotal/observation input. However, if the choice is between reasoning from the assumption that Turkey or any nation will meet the want(s) of another nation because objectively it is the right thing to do or to assume that there is always a quid pro quo --then I will stick with the assertion that quid pro quo is inherent in the process.
You offer the view that the situation should be as simple as asking Turkey "are you ready to open the border or not". If Turkey thought opening the border on balance was to their advantage--the border would be open. You are right about Turkey's border areas and their needs provide impetus to open the border. But that need is overwhelmed by the complexity of Turkey's commitments to the Azeris and the ferocity of its own right wing nationalists. The USA and its European allies have pushed Turkey to the negotiating table but it is still a negotiation. It becomes a process of finding the right price point where each party feels it is getting what it wants for an acceptable price. Armenia has to decide what it is willing to give(which includes disregarding Armenian nationalist reactions) to gain another transit route for imports and exports, to become an energy transit corridor, and to have an alternative that forces Georgia to lower its transit prices. Turkey has to decide if getting relief from American pressure and strengthening its ability to join the EU is worth backing away from its Azeri commitments (they know Armenia will not pay the price of surrending NKR and Armenia has made that clear) and taking the heat from the Turkish right wing nationalist zealots.
Hagopn, your point about the readiness of Armenia to open the border in terms of infrastructure or administration is important and I have no insight into whether Armenia can be ready in the near term or not.
To Raffi:
Raffi asked for an explanation of "“reconfirming territorial integrity and inviability of borders”, then later “confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law”. The former global wording is necessary. If it didn't exist, there would no basis and subsequent path to discuss the border issue in question. It would be like talking to your neighbor about removing a fence between you without an understanding that in doing so doesn't imply a land grab when the two parties actually begin removing the fence. While that might be obvious to you and your neighbor, in international diplomacy the approach is different.
The second part confirms that what will open will be a recognized border based on accepted international laws and treaties that regulate borders between countries. It doesn't say the border as defined by treaties that created them. As noted, Armenia is signatory to a treaty of international law, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. This is one such relavent treaty of international law that defines how recognized borders are regulated, among other things.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Dear friends, thank you for the heated discussion. Don't let it get personal. In response to Aram, HHas is, I believe, Michael Jermakian and not Arthur Martirosyan. Arthur has not participated in any war, and this is the signature of Michael Jermakian from my experience.
David's conciseness is deemed shallow and unprofessional. I don't agree. David has a unique way of attracting comments. If you read him carefully, he is someone intimately familiar with the US political agenda and the environ in Washington.
I will yield on one point and thank HHas for reminding us of the low profile stylings and subtleties of Russian colonialist/imperialist diplomacy, and yet that indeed does not answer the question as to why almost the entirety of the Warsaw pact is lost to Russian Imperialism.
Despite the lack of insight on the internal workings of Russia in Armenia, I think that main point needs to be addressed. Turkey is the main instrument in offsetting the balance in the Caucasus, and, repeatedly stated, the "Neo-Ottoman Revivalism" that is being speculated by high profile intelligence advisors and political analysts in the US is telling. The US has the interest in expanding Turkish influence, and my belief is that the Central Eurasian project is, when realized to its full political potential, a revival of a "Neo-Ottoman State," something that George Friedman - CIA affiliated author - apparently advocates.
Russia, for the first time in 500 years, as David D stated in the comments section of his article, has seen its head of state visit Ankara. Such unprecedented "warming of relations" brings to the front Shant Hariyunian's article which insists that such "warming" of relations means part capitulation on behalf of Russia as in the post-WWI period in order to attract Turkey into its sphere of influence, which, as Boyadjian implies, is a bad gamble and a repetition of the errors made in Eastern Europe.
Turkey will merely use, as it did in the post-WWI era, Russian complacency in light of loss of control of satellites in this context, to advance their anti-Armenian agenda which is a stepping stone in their ambitions to expand to the East.
A couple of points on arguments concerning treaties. Is this clause somehow reviving treaties of Moscow and Kars ["confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law”]? Obviously, not. First, the treaty of Moscow was not signed by any representatives of the Soviet Armenia. It was concluded between Bolshevist Russia and Turkey. Second, the treaty of Kars was signed by representatives of Soviet Armenia, Soviet Georgia and Soviet Azerbaijan on one side and Turkey on the other before Republic of Turkey and USSR were constituted. Both Georgia and Azerbaijan in their declarations of independence renounced the Soviet period and affirmed succession of the first republics (1918-21 and 1918-20 respectively). In other words, they have in fact abrogated the treaty of Kars. Under the Soviet Constitution the Union Republics did not have the right to conclude international treaties. If and when necessary, Armenia could always clarify in a parliamentary resolution that the third republic is a successor state to the first and Soviet republics with a reservation that the Soviet Armenia is recognized in the period of 1924-1991. Moreover, if it ever gets down to revising borders, Armenia can always claim that the Kars treaty is null and void. There is an easy legalistic argument for that. The current protocols are not referring to the Kars treaty. Period. It seems to me that there are still some Armenians out there who believe that Turkey can on its own will or under some pressure reaffirm the Severs Treaty or Wilsonian borders. This is only possible if Turkey were to disintegrate as a state. If that were to happen, no one will be looking into Kars, Moscow or Alexandropol treaty for that matter. On the political level I do not recall Dashnaks protesting or going on a hunger strike when in 2006 Vardan Oskanyan stated the following - "Armenia has never made a problem of validity of the Treaty of Kars, as Armenia remains loyal to all agreements inherited from the Soviet Union." Maybe ARFD governing coalition members inferred then that the treaty of Kars had been concluded three years before the Soviet Union was formed and therefore it was not inherited from the Soviet Union. If so, why this argument cannot be sustained today? Finally, I could not agree more with my opponent Hagopn that this is the time for Armenians to unite and show a strong degree of solidarity. Instead, we are witnessing attempts at political mobilization in the murky waters of baseless accusations in treason and advancing far-fetched interpretations of protocols on par with Turkish propaganda.
This above commentary coming from an "expert" is fascinating. We are talking about context, and not isolated little scribbled lines in the Protocols that will be always re-intepreted to mean what the enforcers wish in any case.
1. Turkish "open discourse of genocide" more so consists on 12 million copies of anti-Armenian propaganda DVDs distributed to than that of some isolated so-called "left wing liberals." The grass roots efforts on behalf of Turkish authorities on this issue, again renewed with massive volume, are of the anti-Armenian sort where Armenians are depicted as the perpetrators of genocide. An entire generation of Turks are retaught to hate Armenians. I have no idea how Taner Akcam will undo this with a few scribbles, but let the "expert" above explain this.
2. The prempted actions are the point on Milosevic, making his analogy useless for the current situation. I don't care about the "experts" who can tell me his underwear size. And, yes, he was a Serb nationalist, and whatever razor blade redefinition of the term by "experts" is also irrelevant.
3. Israel involvement is Caucasian politics is in fact a key factor that "experts" seem to avoid. I have said enough about it to illustrate the importance. The hackers in the string of attacks against Armenian sistes were in fact rumored to be Israeli in origin. "Experts" may dismiss them, but the rumors exist.
4. "Turkish Propaganda" is usually the mirror of Turkish policy. The current trend in Russian Turkish relations is conducive to re-affirmation and enforcement of treaties between these to most power regional entities, one of which has the backing of the most powerful and increasingly influential NATO alliance who has all the ambition to further expand Turkish imperialism. Petty Russian military exercises in the form of the so-called Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) are minor compared to the, again, grass roots efforts by Turkish expansionists in the region.
It has been proved Sargesian (which is not an Armenian name) has betrayed our nation period.
Shouting names like "traitor", etc. does not enhance the argument of the protestors. The president
of Armenia has come to hear our viewpoints. Respectful, reasoned, arguments and dialogue
are reqauired, not insults.
Why would he listen to you or anybody? His purely undemocratic rise to power is based on a mafia clan system of violence and croniosm. You can't even call him a dictator or autocrat -- those suggest political systems. He's a mafia boss.
I don't understand why the people of Armenia elected this guy...
Arthur, I agree. The Treaty of Kars itself is easily nullified for 2 principal reasons, aside from its self-contradicting nature, particularly - as highlighted by Hariyunian - on the issue of annulment of, in short, the burdens of defeat :
1) The Armenian Republic was under occupation of the Red Army at the time it was ratified.
2) The legitimate Armenian government was not a participant as an independent and functioning entity at the time.
Technically, of course you're correct. Yes, you are always technically correct. No one has ever said otherwise either about you or David. You are superb technicians, absolutely superb, and I will be the first to say it.
Yet, let's look at what happened in practice. This "easily nullified Treaty" was put into practice, and, naturally, as the no-longer-existing party, Armenia was not able to enforce any part of it, especially territorial demarcations, which Turkey happily ignored to her advantage and gained all sorts of strength and prosperity as a result of being, as the matter of fact, "relieved of the burden of defeat" put upon her by the Detente.
The Russian Empire, a.k.a. the Soviet Union in effect, agreed to lift the "burden of defeat" back then due to its own shaky condition of having only recently recovered from a massive civil war. This was done with the Treaties of Moscow and Kars principally.
The dormant Treaty for Armenia was not so dormant for Turkey. It has, in fact, never been dormant.
Now, this set of quasi-colonialist "protocols" (yes, they are) merely revive that context where Russia, if measured in terms of Soviet Territory/Russian Imperial Holdings, has suffered immense losses and will do anything to prevent further loss in face of much agression at the race politics and the associated grass roots laborings sponsored happily by NATO and affiliations.
This should not be viewed in a vacuum.
In other words, the Turks were pacified by Russia in the post WWI period when Russia had suffered immense losses, and now, perhaps, the same approach is being taken in order to ensure further non-involvement in North Caucasus operations and Central "Eurasian" operations.
Maybe Davidian is absolutely correct in that the fanatics in Baku have been turned face down in the mud by Ankara. Still, theatre is paramount in the world of experienced statesmen with imperialist experience under their belt, and, sorry to say, but technicians usually miss this aspect of it all. Who knows what Baku is "really feeling right now."
I certainly don't know, but my layman's observation tells me that popular sentiment, i.e. social engineering, is where the real long-term game is at: You don't believe me? Just read the CIA bankrooled authorship of "The Next 100 Years". In this game, Russians are losing, as they always have, very badly. They are, as David Boyadjian always attempts to tell us, very brute and unrefined in comparison to NATO and Company. We're comparing Madison Avenue level smoothness to Russian "brriutyun," the "subtleties" of which have yet to prove themselves. As a Hungarian nationalist recently stated: "NATO corrupts you to the bone, but your population still considers NATO to be their saviour from 'the ugly bear.'" Imagine this applied to a Turkic national of any of the states constantly indoctrinated by "the myth of the Gray Wolf" and so on. Hey, they all want to grow up and "be Ginghiz."
Russians, apparently, know this, and they are doing what they know beest to "counter" this trend: "Hey, why don't we put more military pressure and force them to ally with us, eh?" From the psychological perspective, this has and shall continue to backfire. I agree with Boyadjian completely on this. On the Turkish side, Russians are prompted to take the approach of, for lack of a better descsriptive, capitulation, concessions, "protocols," and the lamb at hand is none other than Armenia. Would you not, as a Russian Casino man, throw the Armenian rocks in favor ensuring control of Khazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and so on? If I were they, I would.
Oil/" hydrocarbon", woolen sweaters, commodities, material assets, in my belief these are secondary fringe benefits, and, focusing primarly on these factors amounts to focusing on the hooves instead of the horse. TERRITORY, CONTROL of ROADS/ROUTES, this is the critical factor. Compare the Krasnojarks Kray to the Armeno-Turkish border. Which is more critical?
In this context, I smell a revival of post-WWI politics. I hope I am wrong. I hope your optimism, however technically well-sourced but nevertheless naive, is the correct one, but I am afraid I cannot allow myself to believe it.
Keep up the good work regardless.
In addition, I don't ever believe that Turkey will be put under pressure to affirm the Sevres Treaty, and I don't ever consider myself your opponent, dearly beloved Brri Brother Arthur--:)
Gary, as with anything, timing is everything. A good strategist gives the enemy the carrot after knocking the enemy's teeth out, and then - after the enemy is wined and drunk and left without the original throbbing pain in the mouth/jaw - the strategist promises the enemy carrot juice "as a show of renewed good will." The memory of pain is simply not as stinging as the original pain. Upon giving you the access to purchase the juicer, due to your exhaustion which in turn is due to the malnutrution in light if carrot deprivation despite availability, you agree to sell your electric generator (which just happens to be a precondition of the juicer deal) and end up paying a premium for a juicer of which you cannot flip the ON switch.
Our economists and competent administrators, our producers and thinkers, have been chased out of their country. What is left are a bunch of salesmen. Statesmen and their advisory are gone. Salesmen and their henchmen are in. They sell, sell, sell, but they have yet to understand at what cost. How can they? All the accountants are gone and are baking perashki and lahmejun in Hollywood.
Granted, the back door to the store had always been open, and Turkish carrots are all over the place in the Armenian markets. However, the door was small and the goods were brought by mostly domestic middle-men who had to go through yet other, more expensive doors in order to bring in the carrot.
Imagine, then, the situation where there is no inhibiting and inflationary middleman, which was, at least in a haphazard mannerism, a form of limited protectionism. The oligarchs perhaps felt a degree of comfort and did not so far feel the sting of having sold the generator to a third pary. However, now, when the door is open, and the deflationary trend kicks in, cheap carrots flood in with the bearer as the first producing wholesaler, the retailers will be first sloshed out the markets, and whatever remnant of production we have internally will be rendered unapproachable the toothless consumer governed by a toothless "administrator" who has yet to understand the value of real accounting principles.
The tooth, of course, is the currency first and foremost, the immensely irrational degree of devaluation of which was agreed upon by none other than President Lemon himself.
It's all about vegetables.
From: Masis Babajanian <masisb@yahoo.com>
Subject: The Flawed protocols
To: info@armenianchurchwd.com
Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 2:57 AM
Dear Prelacy of the Western and Eastern Diocese,
We respond to your message sent in support of the protocols.
On the basis of 4 fundamental principles, we are outraged and formally condemn the churches stance regarding the Turco-Armenian, or more accurately the Turco-Sarkissian, protocols. We understand that churches have historically shunned away from having their constituents question their stance, expecting them to accept information and ideas without query. Unfortunately, our Armenian Government has behaved in like manner. However, your statements in the current setting deal with secular matters, subjecting you to due criticism. We will succinctly summarize our four points below.
First, under the principles of separation of church and state, the Armenian Church should not wholeheartedly support one political opinion versus another. Its function in this issue ought to be to placate differing parties. The political arena is full of treachery, deceit, lobbying, crime, and debauchery, as described by former President Ronald Reagan. We have consistently tried to separate these themes from churches in general. Sadly, your biased position in this issue has engulfed you into such a political arena.
Secondly, a poll has shown that 90% of the US Armenians are against the protocols. Do you think these people are ignorant? Do you expect to sway 90% of the population regarding this matter in the next week? If not, how do you expect to retain the trust, support, and attendance of these people in the long run? It is concerning that our place of faith has strikingly contrasting opinions from us on such a vital measure in our nation's identity, interest, and future.
Thirdly, you explanation of the protocols is exceedingly euphemistic. Our genocide is going to be put to question in front of the world. Why don't the Jews agree to such a measure? It is entirely possible for the Turkish government to utilize its ample resources and immoral and corrupt influence to sway the conclusion of this proposed genocide committee. Just recently, the Turkish police has tampered with the videotaped evidence in the murder of Hrant Dink. They have over 600 years of experience undertaking such measures. The death of 1.5 million Armenians, including my great grandfather's, becomes a circus and a mockery in front of the world. How will we answer to the nations who have recognized our Genocide? Furthermore, formally relinquishing any claims to Western Armenia has not only legal ramifications, but also spiritual ones. Armenians lose contact with their ancestral roots with this measure. If such roots are lost, Armenia will no longer be a place of deeper meaning. Visiting there will be akin to going to Disneyland or Hawaii, simply a site to appreciate aesthetics.
Finally, the Armenian People have endured great sacrifices and persecution in support of the Armenian Church. If religion were not an issue, our historical conflicts would not happen. If we were Muslim, we'd likely live peacefully in Eastern Anatolia, although we would be assimilated into the Turkish nation. Having lost so many lives and security because of religious issues, we find it ridiculous to have our church support measures to trivialize our pain, our losses, and our history. Our continued strife has been to preserve the Church's identity and our loss in this struggle will ultimately result in the collapse of the Armenian Church.
It is obvious that your position is influenced by political figures who support you. We hope that you deviate from such a sycophantic stance. Your predecessors did not bow down to Stalin nor to the Ottoman Empire, often times risking their lives. We request that you follow their footsteps and demonstrate in your own words, "success, wisdom, and courage... in this crucial endeavor."
Respectfully yours,
Masis Babajanian, MD Ishkhan Babajanian, MD
To Hagop Nalbandian:
I am not responding in place of Arthur Martirosyan, but simply responding to your last comment.
Knowledge of the Turkish socialization process has little to do with having to work with the only option available. If all Turks walked around with fu manchu mustaches, carrying signs saying we hate Armenians, would not provide the basis for any other policy options for Armenia. Your protege, Armen Ayvazyan, ranting in the Armenian Parliament does not create options for Armenian negotiators. The external forces haven't changed. Noting Israeli involvement in the Caucasus does not provide other policy options for Armenia.
Nothing you have written provides the basis for an alternative course of action that can be taken by the Armenian government, regardless of what you think or don't about the Protocols. Neither you, Armen Ayvazyan, or even the Dashnaks could have reached anything better than what will signed be signed shortly. This is not to congratulate Armenian FP, but rather stating the obvious. Just because I have attempted to explain why the current policy policy exists, does not mean I have provided an alternate path to take either. I never attempted to. One has to do the best one can given the reality of the situation.
Armenians can certainly protest the Protocols, but they are not providing any alternative course of action in protesting. Walking away is not a policy option. Armenians could have protested against Russians having bought up much of Armenian's infrastructure over the years. I didn't notice such protests. What good would such protests have done? However, if Armenian protesters had sat down with Diasporan financiers and created a way for them to have purchased, say the Armenian electrical grid, that would have been an alternative, in one case.
You providing continued examples of Turkish fascism and suggestions of Turkish lebensraum does not provide an alternative policy for Armenia to take, but clearly you are free to keystroke.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
When entities in Armenia charged that Western academics, including Diasporan
Armenian ones, were following a narrative that did not recognize how truly
far back Armenian history went, the Diasporan Armenian academics were quick
to formulate a petition denouncing such charges. When a Turkish scholar
bought an old, rare Armenian book in Armenia and was prevented by customs
from removing it from the homeland, Diasporan Armenian academics were quick
to formulate a petition denouncing Armenia's treatment of this Turkish
scholar. Now, when the Sargsyan and Erdogan administrations are putting the
Armenian Genocide itself put up for historical debate, where are these Diasporan
Armenian academics? Where is the denunciation? Where is the petition? Along
comes a group of Armenians who take it upon themselves to formulate a
petition and put it under the noses of Diasporan Armenian scholars for the
scholars to sign! Does this not seem backward to anyone? Is there anyone left
who thinks Diasporan Armenian scholarship (and Armenian academic
associations and institutes) are not controlled?
It is becoming increasingly clear that the current "Diaspora Tour" of Mr.Sarkissian is not at all intended to listen to the concerns of the eight million members of Armenian Diaspora and adjust his administration's policies vis-a-vis Turkey accordingly, but rather a "Soviet style" charade to put a facade of legitimacy on his disastrous policies towards Turkish-Armenian rapprochement.
Therefore, it is incumbent upon all the Diaspora organizations to immediately send an open letter to the Armenian Parliament and people, stating that, if the current administration goes ahead with its' intended approval of these infamous Protocols, the Diaspora organizations, representing the majority of the Armenian Nation, will consider the current government illegitimate and not representing the interests of the Armenians worldwide.
As a consequence, the Diaspora organizations will suspend all contacts and cooperation with the current regime, except for the programs that directly benefit the people of Armenia.
It is high time for the government, the Parliament and the people of Armenia to realize that the security and prosperity of Armenia is not advanced by making shortsighted secret deals with our sworn enemies and their superpower handlers, but rather with the combined efforts of people of Diaspora and Armenia proper, based on open and mutually respectful dialog and co-operation.
No Armenian, be it a President or a Catholocos of all Armenians, can speak and act in the name of the Armenian Nation without first obtaining its' consent!
It is also high time for the authorities in Armenia to change their condescending and patronizing attitude toward the Diaspora Armenians. Instead of creating a useless "Ministry of Diaspora" to give the impression of the importance attached to the subject, it should engage in genuine and concentrated efforts on all levels to bring both halves of Armenians together, so that, one day in not so distant future we can all live freely together in our ancestral homeland, in peace!
The Diaspora organizations should also make crystal clear, in writing, to all the governments and entities trying to impose these Protocols on Armenians, that regardless what happens with them, they are not off the hook when it comes to the recognition of the Armenian Genocide and the restitution of our historic rights. We in the Armenian Diaspora, along with our brothers and sisters in Armenia, will redouble our efforts with increased ferocity to bring the perpetrators to justice, recover our occupied homeland and take our rightful place under the sun!
David,
I totally disagree. The reality is that none of the factors you mention are significant and do not convince the notion that Armenia has no alternative choice. Even Ter Petrosyan saved face by resigning his post, using the good tactic of delay. Now, to that mix, you add the presmise of total impotence of Armenians who should simply accept the "inexorable power of the NATO/Russian steamroller." Oh, really? As the joke goes, are you the bear's friend or my friend?
Fascinating how we are constantly led to believe in our own impotence by "well intentioned individuals." Armenia is not a small isolated country, but a globally present and somehwat established diasporan nation of 10 million plus with many more options at our disposal than we are constantly led to believe by, really, who knows what working for who know who.
The Armenian Republic has the unique opportunity, the responsibility, and credibility to exploit properly this potential. Of course the level of credibility can obviously fluctuate as the Komitas Statue affair in Paris shows, but the entire point of these protests is that there is this huge expectation by the Armenian nation to be respresented properly by their Republic. Go figure that one!
Armen Ayvazyan is one of the few political thinkers who consistently state this obvious fact. The lack of willingness to work with the diaspora, the enthusiasm with which participation of recent expatriates is rejected by all three successive administrations (one of the few thing on which they "silently agree), was dealt with in a great analytical essay by Vahe Avetian only a short while ago. All writers, even in opposition, agree on these points, and yet you implicitly state that Armenians are of no consequence when it comes to an Armenian future. It now makes me wonder what your actual position is.
In other words, your words are those of defeatism, and that is no "alternative" to anything. There is no such thing as no options, and it is a false statement to say no alternative options are given. The best alternative given is to not even start any negotiations until, for example, the massive renewal of the anti-Armenian propaganda campaign has been halted. Are you reading this number? 12 Million copies of the DVD depcting Armenian as perpetrators of Genocide are out the in the schools system as compulsory education. What sort of administration ignore this reality and pretends there is any realistic "peace negotiation" going on? What sort of administration, not to mention their mouthpieces, would agree to such a one-sided deal?
What makes you state that the decision is so all pervasive and final that no Armenian effort can put a dent? Why, then, even argue for it? Since in your belief it will happen anyhow, why even bother to lobby for it as you are? You are pretending to not advocate it, but you certainly are doing so by resorting to misinformation as well.
Now I am worried.
I've been following this discussion for quite some time. While I’m generally reluctant to submit posts and thus engage in lengthy exchange of views, I feel I must step in and share some thoughts as a former Armenian diplomat who resigned due to disagreements over foreign policy orientations pursued by our largely dilettante and self-centered government. I should say at the outset that, with some minor reservations, I tend to share multi-dimensional viewpoints expressed by Hagopn and Raffi that demonstrate greater attachment to historical, psychological, and behavioral issues in the broader region over schematic and somewhat algorithmic, yet excellent, analysis and source work done by David Davidian. With all due appreciation for the time David has taken, I’ve found deficiencies in mustering evidence to support sustained evidence in his analysis, such as narrow set of circumstances affecting the workings of factors in the volatile region; limited number of players considered; and narrow, at times non-existent, considerations of power and race politics. Most disappointing is David’s misperception of historical and political underpinnings of the current situation in terms of traditional behavioral attitudes of the parties to the process, predominantly Turkey. An uninformed reader could have an impression after reading David’s article that protocols that are being discussed are to be signed between civilized Luxembourg and Armenia and not between bloodthirsty and cunning Turkey and Armenia.
It is already widely accepted that, for various political considerations that I’d like to omit for the sake of brevity, the interests of Russia, the U.S., and the European Union now coincide with regard to opening of all borders in the South Caucasian region. Had just one out of these three power centers were in opposition, I believe Serge and his clique could have played, with questionable success of course, on the contradiction between them. It appears that he couldn’t even if he wished to. Bear in mind that both Serge and his foreign minister are senior officers of the Russian defense ministry’s Central Intelligence Board (GRU) with Nalbandian being a Russian citizen. Therefore, by all means they have to carry out Moscow’s orders, a task made more arduous by the diplomatic pressure from Washington and Brussels.
Does this mean that protocols couldn’t have been avoided? Not at all. It’s obvious that had Serge enjoyed broad popular support in Armenia, as well as in Diaspora, he could have used it to counterbalance pressure to an optimal extent. March 2008 events, with Ter-Petrossian brought to the fore intentionally to weaken Serge’s power base and ability to conduct more autonomous policy line, have made him more susceptible to external political influence and control. There’s now a speculation that Serge’s staying in power after March violence has been conditioned by his acceptance of concessions currently present in the protocols.
Both David and Hagopn’s interpretations of the “letter and spirit” of the protocols are evenhanded for one major reason: the wording has been introduced in such a way as to allow for multiple, at times contradicting, interpretations, mainly because these protocols have been formatted as to meet sensitive political, not typically legal issues. This is their major flaw, albeit deliberately made one. The major point here is that for the Armenian side, as long as they bear no clarity and precision, and given our first-hand historical knowledge of slyness of the Turks, the interpretation of the protocols in such provisions as “reconfirming territorial integrity and inviolability of borders”, “confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law,” and “implementing a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations” must be based on awareness that they represent preconditions introduced by Turkey and imposed on Armenia by drafting parties.
Although it is generally expected that protocols will be signed, Serge could have attempted to postpone signing and make an unequivocal appeal to the nation both in Armenia and Diaspora that would contain a stealthy allusion of the surmounted pressure and a plea for support. This hasn’t been done. Ultimately, Serge could have, and still can, resign. For both of these options to be viable, however, a truly national leader should have been legitimately elected, enjoying broad-based popular support, have a high morale, and last but not least, be a representative of erudite, cultured elite still remaining in critical minority in Yerevan, and not a provincial from a remote village in Nagorno-Karabakh.
The Diaspora and the Armenian government should have worked out a paradigm of working together more closely, but this envisaged a total remake and modernization of Diaspora structures and real democratic change in the Armenia. This is a lengthier process that’s been originally thought, but singing of capitulating protocols is just days away. If Serge returns to Armenia safe and sound, the concept of Diaspora-Armenia relations will have to be reconsidered with the aim of maybe establishing a government-in-exile representing the 1918-1920 republic, or a centralized body in the form of an NGO with an observer status in the UN, creating a new volunteer army in Diaspora to safeguard Armenia from external threats, and producing conditions for Diasporan representatives to gradually take seats in the government of Armenia. Otherwise, our great grandchildren, I’m afraid, will still witness the stigma of recurring illegitimate, anational regimes in Armenia.
One last point. It is generally accepted in the diplomatic practice that protocols on establishment of bilateral relations and opening of the borders be limited to a single phrase, like this generic one: “The Parties to this Protocol hereby declare their intention to establish diplomatic relations and open the common border.” For Christ’s sake, what was the need for a lengthy, humiliating, and dubious at best, if not explicitly preconditioned in nature, description of intentions?! Dozens of countries in the world have unsolved territorial, border, and historical concerns, but no one sits round the negotiating table and signs protocols. Russia and Japan are still in the state of war, no peace treaty has been signed and the issue of “Northern Territories” still hanging as damoclean sword. Can we affirm that no diplomatic relations exist between them, no open borders established, no trade and economic activity going on? It was idiotic of Serge to succumb to preconditions that are totally unwarranted in international practice. There was no need, except for Turkey’s domestic consumption, perhaps, to fixate them on the paper. It could have been well negotiated in a simple, verbal quid pro quo manner: no genocide recognition, no border issue, just establishment of relations and opening of the border. If Turkey’s support for Azerbaijan was a factor, it could have been explained to Baku, also verbally.
There appears to be no official public study commissioned by the government of Armenia having as its basis a political and economic analysis demonstrating that opening the border between Armenia and Turkey will benefit anybody.
Let's assume the government in Armenia did commission the study. If the study concluded that opening the border would not be economically beneficial to Armenia, then what ? Armenia keeps the border closed? Is that even an option ? Is economic benefits a condition precedent for having an open border ?
"With the demonization of Armenians in Turkish nationalist ideology, an official policy of genocide denial, and Ankara’s proven hostility to the reborn Armenian state, that the West does not actively oppose Turkish preconditions should give everyone pause."
Demonization of Armenians? Is it not Armenians who day and night demonize Turks, who are outraged with any description of Turks other than barbarians and murderers? I would like to see one such example of demonization of Armenians by Turks... while these pages are full of Turkphobic and racist slander.
Armenians are not even willing to recognize the international borders of Turkey, blatantly pursue the Greater Armenia dream, oppose and work against Turkeish interests at every platform, fail to acknowledge the crimes committed by their nationalists, invade their neighbor and mass murder civilians, and then blame Turks with being hostile to their still -re-born state?
Is requesting that borders be recognized an unreasonable pre-condition? Why open the border or talk about it if there is not even an agreement on what it is?
One wonders if there really is a parallel universe.
I am such a proud grandson to be able to read my Grandfathers' book. He was a very special human being. Wise, generous, honest ,amoung many other endearing qualities. Imiss him so much yet I feel he is still with me because of his book. As I get older I appreciate his advice and words of wisdom even more today than ever . Thankyou Aunt Marian for making the publishing of Haght and the Haghtetsis into English possible. Love always, Armen
Hagopn,
If you are posing as an expert on context but know that context from newspapers or futurologist Friedman, why should anyone take your long forays into subjects unknown to you? I could dismantle every single assertion that you are making, from Miloshevich to Israel. But I won't do that - there is no learning in that, there is no value in that. Please rest assured that I do know a thing or two more about the dimensions that you are trying to explore here. If nothing else, instead of stubbornly insisting that Miloshevich was a nationalist, I can tell you what Serbian nationalists have to say on the subject about this Communist opportunist turned into "nationalist". I can do that in the Serbian language for you. Just for fun. Or to return ad hominem. Again, I won't. Instead of trivial points on Israeli foreign policy and Israel's interests in the region, I am asking you, Aivazian and other trumpeters of banalities - Turkey is an enemy, Israel is involved et al. - how the protocols may have negative impact on Armenia's national interests and what policy options you are proposing. Let's stay on the subject at hand instead of blowing hot air of pretenses at expertise. If you can do that we may have as well value of learning for us and other readers of these exchanges.
"a government-in-exile representing the 1918-1920 republic, or a centralized body in the form of an NGO with an observer status in the UN, creating a new volunteer army in Diaspora to safeguard Armenia from external threats, and producing conditions for Diasporan representatives to gradually take seats in the government of Armenia."
Wait, was this not tried around and during WWI? Is there really a need for a round two? Are there no lessons learned?
What is the point of discussing opening of borders, if one does not even recognize the legitimacy of them? The borders were closed in response to outrageous acts of Armenia. What has changed?
Hagop,
It’s not sufficient to claim that even if Armenia “had a choice before“ it has policy alternatives today. You claim Armenia has alternatives, such as the Sargsyan and government stepping down, basically saying “no”. This is not a solution and certainly not a policy alternative, it is resignation. Armenia would look like a diplomatic basket case, unable to adjust to regional changes, unable to determine its interests, and appearing afraid of facing Turkey. Oh, what a fine state of affairs that would leave the region. If I were Azerbaijan, I would attack from Agdam, first, and “regional powers” would allow this until Armenia’s nose was bloodied just enough. There is no guarantee the government that replaced Sargsyan’s administration would then have new choices, but rather all our adversaries having taken advantage of this situation, would reduce Armenia’s negotiating abilities to near zero. Making foolish decisions has its consequences.
You specifically ask “What makes you state that the decision is so all pervasive and final that no Armenian effort can put a dent? Why, then, even argue for it? Since in your belief it will happen anyhow, why even bother to lobby for it as you are?”
The situation as it exist today, or two weeks ago when I began writing my analysis, is the Protocol has been agreed to, only ratification remains. The clock cannot be turned back to say, 2003. This means the Protocol is NOT going away, other than by non-ratification by either or both Turkey and Armenia, a highly doubtful outcome. I have never claimed I support this Protocol, but since its exists and lacking other policy alternatives, I argue that quick ratification by Armenia, it throws the ball in Turkey’s court, where there is rather heated arguments between opposing camps. This is not a difficult concept to understand.
And finally, “You are pretending to not advocate it, but you certainly are doing so by resorting to misinformation as well.”
Just because I have written something you don’t like does not mean I have engaged in a misinformation campaign. I have written an article for an intelligent reader. If I have engaged in misinformation, demonstrate where I have fooled everybody. If you have something to say, say it and move on. I have no vested interest in the Armenian government, I am not an oligarch, I am not a even citizen of Armenia. I did however, take time out to provide an analysis attempting to shed light on an otherwise hysterical and ranting discourse. I have nothing to gain in engaging in misinformation.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
THANK YOU KEN! I am fuming over this fiasco. Who the hell do they think they are?
SOFT POWER DIPLOMACY ISN'T ALL ITS MADE OUT TO BE.
THE 'HOW DARE YOU' COMPLEX IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT TONE.
Hagop,
Thank you for confirming this simple truism - the protocols are in no way reviving either Moscow or Kars treaties contrary to the claims of those who accuse Sargsyan in treason. Let's be consistent and systematic now that we are in an agreement on this issue. What is the other damage to the national interests of Armenia that you and Armen Aivazian have identified and what are policy options that you are recommending? Please be specific and do not tell me that Turkey is evil, bloodthirsty and sly because a) I do not argue with that and b) it is irrelevant to the subject matter - damaging consequences of the protocols for the Armenian national interests.
Mihran,
I am positively impressed by your multi-dimensional, deeply strategic thinking and whatever else by way of empty verbiage is used these days to keep less informed observers excited. But please help me understand your logic here. You assert that both Serge and Nalbandian are GRU officers and they implement direct orders from Moscow. Assuming you are right --
Bear in mind that both Serge and his foreign minister are senior officers of the Russian defense ministry’s Central Intelligence Board (GRU) with Nalbandian being a Russian citizen. Therefore, by all means they have to carry out Moscow’s orders, a task made more arduous by the diplomatic pressure from Washington and Brussels.
I do not necessarily agree unless you yourself are a GRU officer and therefore are sharing with us an informed insider opinion. Let's leave that one aside. I will not bother with the argument re the same pressures from Washington and Brussels. How do you explain then your statement about Sargsyan's weakened internal position after March 1 events as an explanatory argument for his compliance with directives from the three capitals and direct orders from GRU? If they are Moscow agents implementing orders from Yasenevo or somewhere in the vicinity, Washington and Brussels, then would not they do that same thing whether or not they were strengthened by the last elections in Armenia? Would not any president of Armenia - LTP, Kocharyan, Aivazian, Kirakosyan - be forced to consider policy options that minimize negative impact and advance national interests?
Sorry if I am asking too many questions.
Curiously,
A from Kosovska Mitrovica
Bravo Ken
You succinctly and clearly stated what we are all feeling.
President Sarkisian's legacy will be exactly as you outlined. I truly hopes that he heeds your excellent advice.
Mark
Rootarmo:
The statement you quote was made regarding those who made claims on the “clear benefits” of an open border without providing a shred of analysis.
However, on your secondary question, if analysis existed showing detrimental aspects of the open border, it could serve as a part of the process of adopting protectionist legislation, since the border will open in some fashion regardless. How to introduce such a protectionist argument is another issue.
David Davidian
www.regionakinteics.com
Ken told him exactly what the truth dictates that the President hear. We do not have time to play the emperor's new clothes game as some fringe elements do so well in these situations ignoring the need for honest and timely action.
The President appears to be ill advised and ignorant as to the legal significance of the terms he is agreeing to . He should be examined by qualified physicians to determine whether he is competent and has the neccessary soundness of mind to even enter into such agreements.
A great man, a man of courage and honesty. If Turkey is really honest and sincere in looking its past, it would accept to invite Dr. Akcam in this subcommittee which is supposed to be established, IF this dansgerous protocol is ever going to be signed.
Thank you Dr. Akcam.
To: Mihran Matevosyan,
As a former diplomat, “who resigned due to disagreements over foreign policy orientations pursued by our largely dilettante and self-centered government” you must have realized, by saying so, you lost any semblance of objectivity in your argument. No matter what you say, you are strongly biased against anything your formers bosses have implemented, either good or bad.
Regarding current membership in the GRU (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GRU) I cannot comment as I am not privileged to such information.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Thank you Ken
I hope he is going to take into seriouce consedetioan this article. but
the time is short and his surround as well they don't want him to listen.
in this matter he become DEAF
To Murat:
Murat asked, "What is the point of discussing opening of borders, if one does not even recognize the legitimacy of them?" One can recognize a border, but that does not imply legitimacy of the border. The Syria- Hatay Province border exists, but Syria does not consider it legitimate. One can also point to the labyrinth of the "recognized" Turkey's Aegean border with Greece. They are barely mutually recognized, but neither side considers what exists as legitimate.
Then Murat claimed: "The borders were closed in response to outrageous acts of Armenia. What has changed?"
Technically, Turkey engaged in an act of war by sealing that border. In any case one's "outrageous act" is another "act of legitimate self-defense". Apparently, Turkey thinks these "outrageous acts" are somehow less "outrageous" 16 years later. "What has changed", indeed! I would strongly suggest this latter topic be left to polemic blogs.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Maybe Ken should go to Armenia, get his Armenian citizenship and in 10 years time run for president or some other high office. Until then, he has no right to dicate his terms to the RA president. What capital has he built? Every year is the same game in Washington, Armenians want the President of the USA to say the G word, he never does and then there always follow the articles about how turkey controls the state department, etc. Instead of wasting the millions on getting some idiot in the white house to say what we already know is fact and many others, let's use the money in a more pragmatic fashion.
I'm tired of the hysteria that the ANCA and others are causing among the Armenian-American community.
Thank you Ken for speaking in such a bold voice. I wish we had more people like you in Armenia's current administration.
This should be a wake up call for all Armenians throughout the world. We need to unite once for all and see the truth, Armenia can be lost very easily. The current corrupt administration in Armenia is illegally elected and must be brought to justice and replaced by a democratically elected government. Diaspora needs to understand that while being thousands of miles away, we can lose our Armenia very easily, hence, we need to get involved in the country's political, social and economical development, otherwise its doomed, and deemed to be destroyed.
We need to bring democracy to Armenia, and begin moving back home.
After all, Who needs Armenia without Armenians !!!!
TO ARMENAK:
The only part of your comment which I agree with and which is also the most important, is that Diaspora Armenians need to seriously consider repatriating. Otherwise, it is unjust for a Diaspora Armenian to dictate what policy should be followed in Armenia when it is the residents of the country that will be effected. The Diaspora will not be around forever, and if those in the Diaspora wish for their descendants to remain Armenian, then moving to Armenia is the only long term option.
Dear Prof. Theriault,
With all the respect let me disagree. The idea to call the current Armenian president for responsibility for his crimes is as wonderful as unrealistic. How many dictators do you know ruling in the world today? How many of them (or previous ones) were ever hold responsible for their wrongdoings? This does not mean at all that we should not persue the goal, but rather realize that it is more of a matter of principle. Also, before calling Sarkisyan for responsibility we need to bring two former presidents to do so. Surely, I agree with you that Diaspora should have done more after Sarkisyan's 'election'. They should clearly denounce it as false and totaly frauded. So, when the 'President' is doing his Diaspora tour then the Diaspora would have full rights to say 'Who are you? We do not recognize you as a President. You have no legitimacy and and whatever you say or sign is illegal'
Ah, the usual rhetorical "trick" (fallacy) of name-calling.
At least those of us educated in the facts of international reality understand what the world body of law has agreed upon. Every country has territorial integrity, except of course Greece because Turkey would like to pretend the Aegean belongs to Turkey. Downing an air force plan in sovereign air space becomes okay under this fantasy.
Turkish Cypriots have left their own homes in droves, while Turkey has moved its own settlers from the mainland into occupied Cyprus. Repeat of fact: no nation on earth recognizes this occupied territory as independent. It is still considered to be a part of Cyprus and still considered to be illegally occupied. Perhaps you should consult UN votes on this subject so that reality intervenes.
AR could join his/her beloved traitor president Sarkisyan and both go to hell!
Kocharian and Sargisyan are both bad apples of Gharabah.
Mr. Ken Hachikyan of ANCA is 100% right. That is the truth and the whole truth. But there something to be added in order to have the "nothing but the truth." The President whom Mr. Ken Hachikian is talking to is not a legal President. On phone, U.S. State Secretary has promised legality to Mr. Sarksyan versus Armenia Dignity and the human right to live. This is something Mr. Sarksyan is not able to utter aloud. The bad news for Mr. Sarksyan is that U.S. State Secretary is not going to keep her promise, because it has been articulated in a very vague and diplomatic way.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Ken, an excellent inspiring message, as opposed to the slavish nonsense that AAA, AGBU, the Diocese, and KOV are trying to palm off on the people.
You said what needed to be said to that sour-faced Communist fraud.
I would go even further.
Commissar Sargsian should resign and go retire in Istanbul where he can earn a few dollars (not that he needs it) as a part-time advisor to Erdogan. The next time the Turks need to massacre some uppity Armenian demonstrators in the streets, the Commie can show the Turks how it's done, lest they have forgotten.
When Armenian protesters were being clushed in Yerevan, much of the Diaspora was silent. Now, when the same group has a disagreement with the administration in Yerevan, the Diaspora nationalists have decided to stand up for democracy in Armenia!
This shows how little the Diaspora actually cares about the people who live in Armenia. And the same goes with the protocols. If the Diaspora cared about the average Armen in Armenia, they wouldn't be against the protocols.
Ken, thank you for an excellent speech. This is a sure way of rebuilding credibility lost by ANCA following its position on the events of March 1-2, 2008 in Armenia. I hope we as a nation can now see that leaders who are not accountable to their constituency (both inside and outside the country) can do dangerous things.
TO MACK:
Do not pass judgement on those whom you have never met nor spoken to.
I advise you and others on this board to read about geopolitics and also to some of the posters who seem to think they are 'better' Armenians than others to read Armen Ayvazyan's article "Who is an Armenian?"
Why is the ARF not calling Sargsyan's election what it is ..... fraudulent? Any document he signs will therefore be fraudulent. Why is the ARF not calling for Sargsyan's resignation in addition to Nalbandians'?
AR,
Although you appear to have interest and strong opinions on the matter , you certainly lack judgment and foresight.
1. Ken and the ANCA are not dictating policy, but rather asking the president not to follow a course of action which will be disastrous to Armenian rights now and forever.
2. Diasporan Armenians have an absolute right to have their interests and views represented by the Republic of Armenia. 90% of us are not Diasporan-Armenians by choice, but rather as a consequence of the Genocide. Talaat was the first to try to silence us; would you and Mr. Sarkisian like to join him?
3. You may have differences in how resources are expended in Washington; if so, then put your time and money where your keyboard is and do your own advocacy in your own fashion. Until then, please refrain from castigating the generous Armenian-Americans who consistently contribute towards our quest for justice with their pocketbooks or the sweat from their brows.
I think the current situation is a result of lacking a clear common strategy for Armenia and Diaspora.
The authorities in Armenia don't understand or know about plans of Diaspora. And the Diaspora was not active and competent enough in issues related to Armenian and Kharabagh. As a result Armenia had several serious diplomatic losses.
Now there is a big pressure from US and Russia to make a deal with Turkey. Both have their reasons. And getting rid of the Genocide recognition might be one of them for US administration.
Anyway, instead of calling each other names we should analyze the reasons and find solutions.
We should first of all concentrate on easing the international pressure on signing the protocol. Until then Sargsian has very few options.
David, I am disappointed, this was a very poor response.
"One can recognize a border, but that does not imply legitimacy of the border."
Around here we call this sort of statement many things, but I am sure none would pass the moderator. Recognize but not legitimate? That happens only when you have an on going hot conflict, you know, with bullets and guns. Back to diplomacy 101...
"The Syria- Hatay Province border exists, but Syria does not consider it legitimate."
Not true obviously. Syria and Turkey have been having a honeymoon of sorts lately and though there has been some grumblings from some corners about Hatay a long long time ago, it has never ever been a point of discussion, contention or argument or public debate on either side of the border. I would like you to prove me otherwise.
"One can also point to the labyrinth of the “recognized” Turkey’s Aegean border with Greece. They are barely mutually recognized, but neither side considers what exists as legitimate."
Another truly uninformed and unfortunate statement. Actual borders are rather well deliniated between Greece and Turkey, but the geography of the Aegean has presented challenges in terms of navigation mostly. I know personally, as I was crossing the border dozens of times, and illegally for sure as I sailed in the area every summer. Crazy Greek coast guards have been known to fire on boats filled with touritsts, women and children. Kardak is a good example but an exception and one look at the map shows why it could be a problem. All this has nothing to do with legitimacy of course. You may also be confusing air space control (FAR) with sovereignity as some have done here already.
"Technically, Turkey engaged in an act of war by sealing that border."
I am not a diplomat, far from it, but this seems to me a rather unique defintion of an act of war. I would not call it exactly sealed either as I understand there are daily flights between Yerevan and Istanbul... so much for the war!
"In any case one’s “outrageous act” is another “act of legitimate self-defense”."
Oh please... look what happened to Saddam when he "legitmateley" and "self-defensively" invaded Kuwait. Aggressors always have good reasons and excuses. Even for mass murder of civilians "self-defensively".
In any case, it is truly ironic that you make the above statement as that is how many Turks view the tragedy of the Anatolian Armenians during WWI.
As far as what has changed in 16 years, that is a good question. Many Turks ask the same. It is for Armenia to show it I think.
Are you or someone you know still enslaved to an ottoman mindset? Do you justify the dangerous actions of insincere opportunists in order to visualize grandiose roles of self-importance? Do thoughts about non-compliance, independence, truth, justice, genuine reconciliation and dignity elicit symptoms of anxiety?
Well you're not alone.
Hundreds of low-life drones just like you are in desperate need of salvation. Be it within the corridors of the AAA or meeting rooms of the AGBU, ill-informed and misguided subjects of Armenian ancestry sit helplessly intrigued by idealistic notions of appeasement only their ottoman masters would fancy. Yes, it's true that some Armenians have trouble breaking free from the same ottoman slave mindset their great-great grandparents were subject to on a daily basis before being raped and burned alive in 1915.
However, Ken is an example of an individual who has broken free from this defeatist mindset. He has neither forgotten history nor relinquished his quest for justice. There are many of us like-minded out there. If you dream of breaking free from debilitating chains of blind appeasement your chance to do so is only a click away.
Please free yourself or help free others before its too late. Visit www.anca.org or stoptheprotocols.com.
Thank you Ken.
If I understand this whole mess correctly, Diaspora does not have much power over what is going in Armenia; otherwise we would have had a better success by now.. Otherwise, Sarkissyan would have shown his face and listen to the people in Diaspora.. but so far he has not.. what a coward...Therefore, in order to succeed, I agree with few who said our long goal should be preparing to go back to Armenia.. Rebuild that country and start utilizing true Democracy to elect our officials, and run our country in the right way.. When one is far from motherland and screams bloody murder may not have the same strong effect and same strong power.... I continuously try to educate, motivate and push all my friends, Armenian or Non-Armenian on everything that goes on relating to Armenia, however, all my efforts could be without avail...again, our power is no equal to if we were in our own country...
It is unfortunate that our hands are tight in many aspects.. i wish i can do something.. i wish i can say something..but i am nobody.. however, working together, uniting all Armenians around the world... not separating different Armenian Organizations and bringing them together to work for a common goal may and SHOULD leave a scar on the current administration.. it SHOULD show that even though we may have less power (which in reality, we in Diaspora should have as much if not greater power than the Armenian citizen in Armenia) we can impose great deal of pressure on the president and his stupid decision making process...
My blood pressure is rising higher and higher just by thinking what could happen in few weeks.. I pray that by miracle this short sighted protocols won't be signed ...and Armenians all over the world will stand united once and for all to fight this beast...
God bless ARmenia and her people..
G
TO HAIG:
1. You are missing my point, that the actions of the RA government will effect the residents of Armenia much more than those in the Diaspora, therefore their opinion carries more weight. And if Diaspora Armenians really want to make a big difference in Armenia or change things there, then they should spend time and capital there to achieve this and eventually move there.
2. In reply to your 3rd point, I am working on doing just that.
3. God Bless Armenia and Armenians!
Harout..
I got chills when I read your piece.. I am 110% with you.. WELL SAID, WELL WRITTEN...
Henry,
People did not elect the President and his mafia.. The President and the Mafia elected themselves.....everything the President does and says is not legit if you ask me because he does not represent the county and the people... he was falsly elected as our President.. Those who have money have power.. and this is the perfect case for that..
I am ashamed to say that I am part of the country that is run by the head mafia and not a true legit President..
G
Harry...
I am afraid you are 100% correct... The more I hear and see how these protocols are handled and how our own government acts, I believe everything and most likely everyone is controlled by some sort of power...
It is just heart breaking to know that one own's actions and words are controlled by filth, lies, and screcrecy...
Hope that God will punish those that are part of this...
G
Arthur,
If I’m being fair, this is a public forum that provides a podium for everyone to express opinions. You don’t have to be sorry for asking too many questions, however, you should be sorry for using crap like “empty verbiage.” Just because one has written something you don’t like doesn’t mean that one’s opinion can be stigmatized as “verbiage” or acrid hints for “deeply strategic thinking” can be made. If accepted norms of behaviour are alien to you or if you’re unable to control you temper when familiarizing yourself with the viewpoints incompatible to yours, just try to confine yourself to recognition of the fact that this discussion is being viewed by our foes, as well as to a presupposition that readers and posters here may be, like you, intelligent or experienced individuals.
This said, I’d like to conclude my one-time intrusion into this highly—and unnecessarily—personalized forum by offering these remarks.
To Arthur:
One need not be an intelligence officer or a furniture mover, for that matter, to have or share an opinion. Of course, if one is an insider his opinion is more credible, but in a country like Armenia there still exist, despite all odds and limitations, foreign nongovernmental sources that, by the way, keep a handful of intellectuals remaining in this debilitating inner atmosphere more prone to objectivity as compared to outsiders. Let’s leave this aside, since I admit I may have grudge against spooks and their paid-for collaborators, including those whose mental capabilities only allow them to screen Internet discussions on government orders. I’ve got a generic answer to your questions. Whether agents of foreign powers or not, weaker and more conformable regimes are generally preferred by major power centers over stronger, democratically elected governments enjoying broad-based popular support, especially in volatile regions. Whether agents or not, such regimes are more susceptible to political control and influence. The consequence of such compliance we’re witnessing today. Few, if anyone, would argue that, as Serge contends, Armenia has initiated the protocols. The gravest mistake that regimes (past or present) continue to make is that they underestimate the ability of their own people to understand whether or not their rulers talk through hat.
To: David
Your remark about my being biased against anything former bosses have implemented, either good or bad, is not applicable to me. Maybe you were thinking as you’d behave had you found yourself in a similar situation, but in my years in public service, I rarely avoided being against a policy measure if I considered it bad, just as I always supported any policy initiative that I considered good. It is exactly this attitude that our dilettante “bosses” nation-wide cannot endure. They prefer administrant, narrow-minded, and essentially primitive brown-nosers in their own image and likeness. Likewise now, I consider closed borders between Turkey and Armenia, even though it was Turkey that closed them, an anomaly and support their opening. I consider non-existence of diplomatic relations, even though it was Turkey that opposed it, an anomaly, and support their establishment. What the majority of analysts and Armenians world-wide disagree with is the format and three known provisions that give way for contradicting and potentially hazardous interpretations. Analogous protocols typically contain a single, all-explanatory clause concerning the intention of the parties to establish relations and open the border. A routine quid pro quo that could have been discussed and agreed upon during prior negotiations: no mentioning of the genocide on Armenia’s part – opening of the border on the Turkish part. This has been Armenia’s stance for years, what happened? All Armenia’s problems—socio-economic, monetary, judicial, domestic political, and civil society-related—have just evaporated and only a problem of Turkish-Armenian border is unchecked on the government’s to-do list? Do you really think Serge had a bad dream and changed Armenia’s foreign policy overnight or a compounded, methodical external pressure could have been a catalyst here? And if we admit, as it’s becoming apparent to virtually every intelligent and even merely literate reader, that the second factor might have played a role, then we come to no other conclusion that introduced in the protocols are, essentially, Turkish pre-conditions, albeit in a concealed and modified fashion.
Now, let’s suppose your arguments are correct and Serge knows what he’s doing. Are we in agreement here that what he’s doing goes against the public opinion both in Armenia and Diaspora? Indeed, we can argue for months, formulate hypotheses, isolate and investigate various causalities, identify or modify the core concepts that direct and structure empirical research on the subject, etc., but at the end of the day on whose behalf Serge puts his signature on October 10, knowing too well that the prevailing majority of Armenian populace at home (and I deliberately avoid using the term “electorate” since the term doesn’t apply to our rulers, past or present) is fiercely against the protocols?
Constitution of Armenia, Article 57: The President may be impeached for state treason or other heavy crimes.
I think I’ll stop here and lay my hopes for justice and comfort for my people on the mercy of Jesus Christ.
Arthur,
on the Milosevic deal, I've been reading more extensively after this response of yours above, and I have come to agree with you on Milosevic's political identity as an opportunist. Tim Carr's articles that I posted shows that as well. I do not mind if you pick anything apart, my friend. We are here to discuss and learn, and you are one of the best I know of in that field.
I still stand my opinion that the Yugoslav/Serb analogy is not applicable to our situation.
Murat wrote: "David, I am disappointed, this was a very poor response."
“One can recognize a border, but that does not imply legitimacy of the border.”
Around here we call this sort of statement many things, but I am sure none would pass the moderator. Recognize but not legitimate? That happens only when you have an on going hot conflict, you know, with bullets and guns. Back to diplomacy 101…"
“The Syria- Hatay Province border exists, but Syria does not consider it legitimate.”
Not true obviously. Syria and Turkey have been having a honeymoon of sorts lately and though there has been some grumblings from some corners about Hatay a long long time ago, it has never ever been a point of discussion, contention or argument or public debate on either side of the border. I would like you to prove me otherwise.
Take look at http://www.parliament.gov.sy/ar/syria.php. This is an official Syrian government map. Syria might recognize the Turkish version of the border, but Syria clearly considers Hatay part of their country, making the Turkish version of the border not legitimate in Syrian eyes. QED.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetis.com
David,
In response to your #1 paragraph: the perspective I have come to form on this is that delays are to our advantage. It is an illusion that “normalization” can ever occur de facto. Turkish anti-Armenianism is simply too entrenched and is constantly revived, refreshed, repeatedly funded and enforced. From what I have been reading into the affair, this “normalization” theatric will be the means to ease the attack on Agdam in your speculative exercise. If Armenia’s economy is not prepared to compete with a belligerent giant with an unsupervised border, a huge chasm as is evident in the utter incompetence of this so-called “government” in power, then it is only a matter of a decade or two before Armenia is depopulated and impoverished further. I cannot believe that naivete here.
It is an illusion that Turkish politics will be thrown in to confusion, and it is fascinating that someone, again, with such extensive knowledge of Turkish politics does not seem to understand the character of the Turkish politician! They get not possibly get any clearer on their stance vis a vis Armenia. What is this nonsensical talk about clocks and levers? Do you think you’re dealing with some sort of nuclear power plant on meltdown phase? “Oh, Metzamor will become Chernobyl if we stop the flow.” This isn’t engineering or physics friend! Besides, a counter-momentum, if you wish, exists among the vast majority of the population of Armenians. In that sense, the situation is as artificial and invalid as it was a month ago; i.e. This “government’ does not represent the interests of the Armenian populations of either the Diaspora nor the Republic. Therefore, the change in status of the protocols is also irrelevant. The ratification phase is still a point of time to stop the process. Even after ratification by this illegitimate administration, it is possible to reverse the decision and rescind the legal status. The response is easy: “Hey, sorry, we didn’t elect these clowns.” You appear as a democratic state willing to adhere to democratic principles. If you wish to maintain your credibility, I highly recommend you stop advocating them while pretending not to advocate them.
And finally, “You are pretending to not advocate it, but you certainly are doing so by resorting to misinformation as well.”
You say: “Just because I have written something you don’t like does not mean I have engaged in a misinformation campaign. I have written an article for an intelligent reader. If I have engaged in misinformation, demonstrate where I have fooled everybody. If you have something to say, say it and move on. I have no vested interest in the Armenian government, I am not an oligarch, I am not a even citizen of Armenia. I did however, take time out to provide an analysis attempting to shed light on an otherwise hysterical and ranting discourse. I have nothing to gain in engaging in misinformation.”
In the main, I wouldn’t dream of accusing you of producing misinformation, but merely the conveyance of it due to your fine technical skills in assembling what you deem to be “reliable information.” I see a different pattern of thinking which is illustrated here well enough to understand that you feign from delving in sources and ideas that are considered not of the mainstream. That is not the mentality of an open mind willing to engage in honest dialog on such critical an issue at such a critical juncture, but is instead that of a well honed technicians whose career is based on conveyance and assemblage of “reliable data” as acknowledged by the “established mainstream.” There are certain tell-tale signs, and 4 easy examples of these are; 1) The reluctance to forewarn the Armenian public of the Turkish aggression in the form of re-educating their young the fascistic anti-Armenian modalities 2) The reluctance to acknowledge the legitimacy of digging further back in history to form a longer term contextual argument 3) the reluctance to acknowledge the wider, geopolitical realities and consequences for the fledgling Armenian state such as that of all parties in NATO block and their ambitions to expand Turkish hegemony 4) The reluctance to mention and acknowledge the Israeli-Turkish-Azeri-Georgian military defense pact, which is clearly an active alliance. There are more, but these should suffice in showing the readers that not even a small percentage of the interested parties, their reasons, and dangers posed are discussed in this article. It is a very well delimited mechanical article that any Fletcher School pupil would be proud to publish for a CIA job application. I would never dream of accusing you, David. I would just express my disappointed in your selection of sources and your choice in making adjustments to the “mainstream”.
Just as an add-on to this, which is, again, not directed at you but your “sources,” the flood-gate of “pro-normalization” so-called scholarship spewed out by the various “institutions,” let me say this. I have an acquaintance who, after graduating from Fletcher, could not land a job to save his noggin for many years. He then began to change his platform and write articles advocating the opening of the border, and now he’s a happy camper employee of the State Department with a substantial salary and so on. Indeed, the same offices that turned him away, suddenly embraced his resume like a ragdoll where he went from bottom of the barrel to top candidate grade. I am telling you that the air is that of destruction for us, and these Laurel and Hardy team (as recently described by a friend) in the so-called “government” are out to sell our future for who knows what conceived benefits, but they will be again proven wrong. Turkey is a sworn enemy with many ambitions and resources at hand, and, at a time when Armenia is indeed at her weakest (God willing it doesn’t get worse, which is probably the idea behind the “pressure to normalize” anyhow), we have our “government” asking to “open doors” unconditionally. Why indeed would they mind since all conditions are 10000% in their favor to boot? Isolationism from Turkey is a benefit, an asset, not a liability to give us time to gain composure.
BRAVO, Ken. I think the whole concept of Diaspora-Armenia relations need to be reconsidered. I have a bad feeling that these capitulating protocols will be signed. Diasporan Armenians need to start calculating their moves after this happens. Is it lefally feasible to establish a government-in-exile of the 1918-1920 republic or a governing body representing Diaspora as an NGO with an observer status in the UN? Is it feasible to create a voluteer army? Neither Armeniasn in Armenia nor Armenians in Diaspora support these protocols. On whose behalf dispeakable karabakhi provincial will sign them on Oct. 10?
Believe me, we don't need Armenia to expand to the East. We are already there. Our interest is to have Armenia on our side rather than Russia'a or USs. This whole thing is a cause of real independence for all, not alone for Turks in Asia Minor.
Murat wrote: “One can also point to the labyrinth of the “recognized” Turkey’s Aegean border with Greece. They are barely mutually recognized, but neither side considers what exists as legitimate.”
Another truly uninformed and unfortunate statement. Actual borders are rather well deliniated between Greece and Turkey, but the geography of the Aegean has presented challenges in terms of navigation mostly. I know personally, as I was crossing the border dozens of times, and illegally for sure as I sailed in the area every summer. Crazy Greek coast guards have been known to fire on boats filled with touritsts, women and children. Kardak is a good example but an exception and one look at the map shows why it could be a problem. All this has nothing to do with legitimacy of course. You may also be confusing air space control (FAR) with sovereignity as some have done here already.
See: http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=33687 WILL AEGEAN DISPUTES CONTINUE TO BLOCK TURKISH-GREEK RECONCILIATION? Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 5 Issue: 105, June 3, 2008. Especially note paragraph 3.
There are a myriad of studies available. If the Turkish-Greek Aegean border was not just recognized but considered legitimate, inviolable by both parties, this tension would not exist. There is no confusion here.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Arthur,
"Thank you for confirming this simple truism – the protocols are in no way reviving either Moscow or Kars treaties contrary to the claims of those who accuse Sargsyan in treason. "Let’s be consistent and systematic now that we are in an agreement on this issue."
I do not confirm the truism except on superficial technical terms - which is something absolutely expected from you at the highest level, and we are far from agreeing on this issue. I say inclusion in the protocols is irrelevant. The conditions created by the protocols are the most significant factir is the argument made by Hariyunian, and I am in agreement with him. I have stated this and the reasons behind it enough times above.
"What is the other damage to the national interests of Armenia that you and Armen Aivazian have identified and what are policy options that you are recommending? Please be specific and do not tell me that Turkey is evil, bloodthirsty and sly because a) I do not argue with that and b) it is irrelevant to the subject matter – damaging consequences of the protocols for the Armenian national interests."
What do you mean by "what other?" What are you expecting as a response on this? Brainwashing their entire popoulation to hate and kill Armenians is not enough of a potentially damaging factor? Are you saying that the constant rhetoric of threats will not materialize? Are you saying that, indeed, this set of meaningless (only meaningful as a means to appease our "administration" and naive Armenians) set of "Protocols" will stop Turkish support for Azerbaijan on the Artsakh issue? Isnt' the imminent duplicity also a damaging factor in itself? Have you ever read serious analyses of psychological warfare? I am sure you have, since "you went to the best schools." I trust Gevork Yazedjian more on this as well. He considers today's socio-political conditions in Armenia similar to the time of embarrasing loss of Kars in 1920.
It is not just Ayvazyan, but also, surprisingly, Avetian, Papian, and a host of others who, even though some are in fierce opposition to each other on many issues, are in agreement on this one. All the activists out there agree on this point: Turkish interests lie in the destruction of the Armenian state ultimately. You agree to this as well, and yet you ask for "damaging actions."
Ironically, the blockade, as I state in the above comment on economics, was a means to prepare for the opening. You starve and exhaust your prey, and then you let it walk into the trap. Isn't this also part of your strategy in having people repeat themselves? Which "school" taught you this, by the way?
Reality states, if indeed studied systematically and not in some queerly self-induced vacuum bubble mentality the unstated purpose of which is unclear, the geopolitical ambitions which are constantly stated are to be enforced while Armenians are forced to adhere to "normalization processes" and more pieces of paper, bringing echoes of the Berlin Conference/Congress back to our minds.
The recent "diplomacy" is one-sided in yields, negative for Armenians, always positive for Turks in possession of all the levers and geopolitical supports. The Armenian economy is in shambles. The Turkish economy is booming. The Armenian state apparatus is a dusty buckaroo circus. The Turkish state apparatus is a well-oiled machine. The Armenian intelligence apparatus is semi-dependent and weak, while the MIT has a virtually self-contained multi-billion dollar city dedicated to it. The Armenian population is again shrinking in light of these "protocols," yet the Turkish population is showing signs of faster growth.
Again, the blockade is the first phase. The protocols and the "opening just late enough to pounce and early enough to be useless" is the second phase. I would bet that the impending Agdam attach is the third, to which these same "friendly entities encouraging normalization" would turn the blind eye.
Russia, as I have said, is a geopolitical and ideological cripple these days, particularly and most significantly in Central Asia, and Boyadjian is correct. Ayvazyan is correct. Even Karen Vrtanesyan in his Internet article mentioned the fervent anti-Armenianism building in all Turkic discourse on the Internet, even among previously neutral populations such as the Uzbek, Khirghiz and so on, and this was printed 2 years ago. Work at the grass roots is being done in a systematic manner by pan-Turkists and their sponsors, and the AKP is not an objector, but also a (albeit more silent) supporter of this project. Turkish sponsored (i.e. brainwash) "institutes" are a functioning reality in the Russian Federation as well. Turko-Azeri integration at the intelligence level is a fact, and it is hard to swallow any counter-evidence as anything except placating propaganda.
to Ar
who are you? a resident of Rep.of Armenia? what"s your point?Are you for the protocole ? why?
the Armenians in Rep.of Armenia are afraid to talk,they have apathy and are kept in the dark..
the Academicians response to the protocole is a good example... Mr. V M is another sample...
Diasporan Armenians went to Armenia and let me know why they were not wellcomed..the latest
ones were the Iraquis..thalk about the leadership...
no body is dictating ..we are suggesting..and the leadership should listen..I hope you have read
or listened Mr. Voskanian's speach about the Protocoles...God bless Armenia and America..
please read Gayane's notes too..take it easy ...Barouyr Sevag said ..Khenter gue kednan jampan..
Murat wrote: “Technically, Turkey engaged in an act of war by sealing that border.”
I am not a diplomat, far from it, but this seems to me a rather unique defintion of an act of war. I would not call it exactly sealed either as I understand there are daily flights between Yerevan and Istanbul… so much for the war!
You do not have to be a diplomat to understand this, you simply need to do some trivial research. Google “blockade act of war” and note the results. The Encyclopedia Britannica considers a blockade an act of war (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/69580/blockade) One can even quote from the 1933 Montevideo treaty as it serves as the basis for many EU actions, especially those in the Former Yugoslavia.
The EU considers this Turkish action a blockade, See: “European Parliament EU relations with South Caucasus -- Report on the communication from the Commission to the Council and the European Parliament on the European Union's relations with the South Caucasus, under the partnership and cooperation agreements
Doc.: A5-0028/2002
Procedure : Consultation paper
Debate : 27.02.2002
Vote : 28.02.2002
Sections pertaining to the Armenian Genocide:
MOTION FOR A RESOLUTION
15.Calls on the neighboring countries Russia, Iran and Turkey to contribute constructively to the peaceful development of the South Caucasus Region; in this respect especially calls upon Russia to fulfill commitments to downgrade its military presence and calls upon Turkey to take appropriate steps in accordance with its European ambitions, especially concerning the termination of the blockade against Armenia; reiterates in this respect the position in its resolution of 18 June 1987 recognizing the genocide upon Armenians 1915 and calls upon Turkey to create a basis for reconciliation;
“In any case one’s “outrageous act” is another “act of legitimate self-defense”.”
Oh please… look what happened to Saddam when he “legitmateley” and “self-defensively” invaded Kuwait. Aggressors always have good reasons and excuses. Even for mass murder of civilians “self-defensively”.
In any case, it is truly ironic that you make the above statement as that is how many Turks view the tragedy of the Anatolian Armenians during WWI.
You are the one who stated Armenians engaged in outrageous acts, I responded in kind. Armenians were subject to pogroms across Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh was no exception. Armenians of NK didn’t invade anybody, they stayed, fought, and won the right to remain on their land, as the Azerbaijani army sent to ethnically cleanse them, disintegrated. Equating events in Nagorno-Karabakh with that of Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait is not accurate. I highly suggest you stay on topic, and that is the Protocols.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
David yet again responds to Rootarmo with this:
"However, on your secondary question, if analysis existed showing detrimental aspects of the open border, it could serve as a part of the process of adopting protectionist legislation, since the border will open in some fashion regardless. How to introduce such a protectionist argument is another issue."
I have already outlined with many shreds of analysis why protectionism is not a possibility for an Armenia without full Russian sponsorship. It is already impossible due to USaid induced dependency in the agricultural sector. I ask the readers to reread my comments above on this.
If only the Armenian government welcomes people like Ken and ourselves into the country and allow our voice to be heard, we may have some influence... However, as I see it, our own government stopped honest, and righteous people from entering the country to stand against unjustice and fraud.... Otherwise, the Armenian govt would not have shot the Diaspora from being involved in the internal affairs of the Armenian people and nation...
I am probably missing something or not getting what is truly going on.. this matter should not be a discussion between the countries.. this matter should be on the table for negotations... is it me or i think everyone on the govt body were bought out by Turkey and US under the table? Either I am losing faith in our own govt 110% or my anger and hate is speaking out... don't know.. what I know is having our own govt selling her country and people and history for money or whatever hidden agenda they may have with a drop of a pen, then I rather not be part of that country and present myself as an independent person without any connection to one nation... but unfortunately can't do that because i am not about to throw my history, ancestry, and nationality along with my culture away because one president and one govt body are incompetent and traitors...
Again, our efforts and money should definitely go into Armenia and all the rich Armenians living here should pour their finances and buy everything they can so no other can own our factories, lands, and Armenia period.. That is how we will have more power...
How dare is he? is the perfect choice of words...no more sugar coated approach, no more politically correct words... we need to say it as it is..or else they will never listen or get it.. SHAME on them...
I am prepared to do what it takes to help as much as I can.. could be with time invested or the little money that I have.. but we need to act already.. heriqa nstenq u voch mi ban chanenq...yerpeq aytpes artyunqneri chenq hasni..
G
The Diaspora mostly lives in developed countries with strong economies.
I am one of those people living in California miles away from the difficult situations in Armenia.
If the protocols will help the Armenians living in Armenia then let it!
How dare we who live here in comfort and safety get in the way of their well being?
If we are not Armenian enough to go and live in Armenia then how can we just meddle in policies that will improve the life of the average Armenian living in Armenia.
Shame on the ARF...go away!
Murat,
Why do not you sail on and keep your compass on questions on aggression for Turkey in Cyprus? It is a marvelous example on how to get away with an aggression. I am sure you know as much about Saddam as you do about diplomacy but why get distracted? In any event, it is customary for wolves to cry about aggression but only after they get some beating. Turkey and Azerbaijan had no problems with the Armenian "aggression" in the summer of 1992. Despite numerous international calls to cease fire and stop the real aggression and ethnic cleansing on par with Miloshevich's campaigns in Kosovo and Bosnia, Elchibey and his grey wolves had sensed the smell of blood... When Armenians without NATO air strikes or the glorious coalition of Bush the father send his askers running, Turks obviously and naturally for the wolf from the fable got outraged.
To Gayane. The main pressure on Sargissian comes from US and Russian administrations. So you have more power than citizens of Armenia in that sence.
Murat,
You were close to the cynical Turkish propaganda claim that Turkey closed its border with Armenia in respect of European values and love of thy neighbor. Of course, some Europeans may be stubbornly doubting as in If you continued your exercises in primitive sophistry, you could arrive at a conclusion that there were no war between Armenia and Azerbaijan either. However, you'd be in some other waters then, won't you?
Hagop Nalbandian wrote:
“I have already outlined with many shreds of analysis why protectionism is not a possibility for an Armenia without full Russian sponsorship. It is already impossible due to USaid induced dependency in the agricultural sector. I ask the readers to reread my comments above on this.”
Vay aneres! You support the rejection of multi-dimensional international pressure, ignore Armenia’s objective situation -- say no-no-no to the Protocols -- without providing any alternative nor can address the subsequent repercussions, yet you are scared of USAID and their stipulations! Armenia need not take any more USAID dollars, change the laws, and claim such a move is necessary for Armenia’s ultimate long term survival.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Hye, just think of Sarkisian as a dictator - one who had made up his own head, inexperienced as he is,
making all the wrong choices for the wrong reasons for fledgling nation of Armenia. Trust the Turk? Where have you been in all the years of the Turks lies and deceptions? Not only with the Armenians, but with all their foreign relations which are in constant 'repairs'... agree to disagree, et al.
The following is an example of what the Turks' apirations are - Turkey for Turks (Ottoman, and more): Just recently I read the Turkish government prepared material for the Constantinople school students and, as well, for the parents of the students - a map. This map protrays WITHIN Turk's borders - Armenia, Cyprus and Bulgaria. Supposed an 'error' and supposedly withdrawn - but the apirations of the Turks - the Turkey for Turks borders is still, today, in the planning stage. Armenia is the first on line for 'admission'... and more Genocides...
Sarkisian, artentzeer -you are inexperienced, out of your element, when dealing with such a difficult neighbor who has - over the years - proved to have only hate and worse against the Armenians. Turks shall push to gain Armenia in their sphere - then the issues of reparations, the Armenian Genocide, and more, shall all fade away. This is the Turks goal, plain and simple. This is where we are at today - artentzeer, Sarkisian!
Manooshag
Manooshag
Ara, you miss the point. All diaspora Armenians want the people in Armenia to live a better life. However, the current and past presidents have all been in power because of fraud. Sargisian alone has lost the Armenian nation over 60 million US dollars in the mellenium package, money earmarked for that nation, because of his fraud elections. Now he is further hurting ALL Armenians by negotiating on things that do not belong to him; The facts and history of the Armenian genocide, the Western land boundries and possibly Karabagh itself. It is because of the diaspora that potically Armenia has clout not the other way around. All this Turkish diplomacy is a result of the political strength of the diaspora that Turkey can't ignore. Not because of Sargisian. Last, 90% of diaspora Armenians are against the protocals, not just ARF.
To David Davidian
Mr. Davidian:
the alternative to opportunistic moves on the external front (i.e., the protocols) would be the domestic reform agenda. Putting own house together--both in terms of advances on human rights and related issues as well as meaningful economic reforms--would have gone a long way toward preparing Armenia and its economy for any trade liberalizations of this magnitude and would have strenghtened its negotiating position externally. You seem to be supportive of this line of thinking (at least on the issue of trade, per the final paragraphs of your well-crafted article) but keep dismissing this as an alternative course of action in your subsequent comments. Why?
Respectfully,
David Grigorian, Ph.D.
Washington, DC
Hagop,
In regards to your comment that begins with: In response to your #1 paragraph: the perspective I have come to...
You make no sense! You claim I am somehow remiss because I neglected to write a 1000 page book on the topic. Sorry. You used to claim I engage in misinformation, now that claim was all rhetorical. You somehow equate my efforts with techniques used by the CIA, but not really.
I am well aware of the Turkish socialization process, well aware of regional dangers, well aware of the damage cause by Armenian monopolists and oligarchs, well aware of Turkey having very high tariffs and strict protectionist laws, well aware of the effects of Armenian mis-governance, well aware of the corners both Armenia and Turkey have painted themselves into, but that does not negate the necessity to provide an analysis explaining why the Protocols exist. Explaining how the Protocol may have come into existence does not negate all the other dangers we know about, it is just that the existence of the Protocol is exclusive of them. It clearly is because the Protocol exists and so do the dangers. The text has been agreed to, leaving only ratification. If a cold, sober explanation does not exist, free of illusions, we cannot go forward and work with the cards that have been dealt.
If the Turks do not provide their people with a sober explanation of these Protocols, they will be in a competitive disadvantage for whatever comes next. So far all I have seen is spin. If Hurriyet reporters can see Kars clearly spelled out in the Protocols, I have some McDonald hamburger wrappers to sell them with images of Ataturk crying.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
As very active supporter of ANCA initiatives on Armenian issues, I am surprised by the extent this article blows things out of proportions. We all hear about how powerful Armenian Lobby is in USA, but the really is that it has accomplished much less than those in France or Russia. From year to year I send those faxes, letters, emails to various US representatives, but this government still would not use the word Genocide, simply because Turkey is strategically important to them. ANCA and other Armenian organizations should "think outside of the box", every time we think we are on brink of getting some resolution passed, then it gets killed. We are like hamsters running in a wheel. We think we are getting some where, but we the cycle continues from election to election, from a resolution to a resolution. Turkey continues to deny Armenian Genocide, Armenia continues to suffer the blockade, and USA continues its failure to properly recognize Armenian Genocide. So why in the world should president of Armenia follow Ken's advice or suggestions?
President Sarkisian and Foreign Minister Nalbandian should read about the German Ostpolitik of German Chancellor Willy Brandt and the politics of Jordan with Israel. They are all available in Brandt's memoires and King Hussein Memoires. Armenians should use the expertize of international law experts and professors just like the Jordanians did by hiring a British and German international law experts, before finalizing and signing their agreement with Israel. These are very sensitive issues, the person who handles it is responsible to the memory of the Genocide victims, their survivors and the entire Armenian Nation.
Asbet Balanian
Community Activist
Philadelphia, PA
USA
Armen jan..
if i have more power here than in Armenia, why can't we stop all this? Why our efforts and voices are pushed aside like dirt on the side.??? I wish you are right.. maybe you are right.. i am just not seeing the value and i dont' feel the difference.. Not yet.. hoping to see a better outcome than we have seeen lately..
However, I still think being in the country will make a greatest effect than shouting from the far lands...
Thank you and i know we will win.. i just don't know when and how..
God Bless you all..
G
Shame on Ken and this sort of thinking! He's chosen to be a cool guy with the wrong Presindent (easy way). Turkish main partner in the region is USA where Ken is living, it is USA who puts pressure on Armenia (thru Turkey), it is USA who plays with Armenians worldwide not admitting the fact of Genocide. Ken should not be a chicken and should shout to Obama with this tone. He can also shout to Sargissian but not from his comfort house in US- you go to Armenia, stand there and shout this words to Sargissian's face. It seems that Ken was fighting there in Karabakh not Sarkissian so patriotic he sounds:)))
Those protestors fighting with the police.... Why are you not able to raise hell April 24 in front of White House for a few weeks/months, beat police, crush shops and stuff so that the whole world sees Diaspora is outraged ? Why now when Sargissian comes ?
This is exactly what Turks wanted to put Armenians against each other. Bravo, Ken
To David Gregorian:
Well, if the clock could be turned back 15 years or so, that alternative may be have been available today as part of a wider policy. Now that the horse has left the barn it is clearly too late to harness such capital to be used as an alternative before mid-October. If you are asking if that still can be harness to provide a future alternative, yes.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
To David Davidian
Thank you. I am glad we established that we have an alternative. To address the issue of timing that you raised, what if people can get SS to resign and we can get his successor (neither LTP nor Robik) make serious progress on domestic reform agenda in a relatively short period of time? How is this not a better alternative to what we have now? Why should I assume that October 10 is a done deal and the best thing for us as a nation? Just wondering.
The tragedy is (and here I agree with you partially) that not only we could not get SS to resign (FYI, one of ARF's Yerevan-based bosses said yesterday that even if SS signs this thing they will not be demanding his resignation!), but becoming an international hero (by signing this thing to the detriment of the nation) would take away every incentive SS could have had to pursue any domestic reform agenda. Who after all is going to challenge a Nobel Peace Prize winner on issues related to broken economy or human rights abuses!
The bottom line is that before running a maximization/optimization problem, I challenge all my constraints. The "reality on the ground" only exists in some peoples' minds. It's rarely as hard as we portray it to be. Challenging every aspect of an unfavorable "reality" and conveying potential alternatives is a role that independent Armenian intellectuals have failed miserably in recent years, I think. What followed is what we have now. Are there lessons to be learned here for all of us?
I yet have to see a single rational analysis or something with depth in the diaspora. I can't believe how out of touch Armenians are with politics. Wake up Boyajian, the warming of relations between Ankara and Yerevan is a Russian project.
Hagop,
May be you do not confirm the truism but we are in an agreement that the protocols do not revive the Kars treaty. And you still did not understand my question I am afraid. There is a long list of critics of the protocols and they are all speaking about damage to the Armenian national interests stemming from the implicit nature of this document. I am genuinely interested in the analysis, not in verbiage used by some to put an air of importance. What is the damage specifically? Can you tackle this question? Aivazian did not at least in the fragment I saw with him in the Armenian parliament. The answer – Turkey is evil, bloodthirsty and sly – is not an answer to this question. And please stop labeling me as a technician and implying that you are a three-multi-dimensional strategist. It may turn out that I know a thing or two more about strategy simply because it is my profession.
Here are my answers to your questions.
H: What do you mean by “what other?”
Other than the allegation that the protocols revived the Kars treaty.
H: What are you expecting as a response on this?
Your analysis of how the protocols damage the Armenian national interests.
H: Brainwashing their entire popoulation to hate and kill Armenians is not enough of a potentially damaging factor?
How that is related to the protocols? I could argue that the terms of the protocols may make the job of brainwashing more difficult. We will have a foot in that process. Right now we don’t, we are not a player in shaping their perceptions. Can we become a player? I believe we can and it is better to be in the game than outside. Any propaganda expert will tell you that stereotypes are easier to maintain when the other side is not involved. True, this may require that some Armenians change their views of the Turks. But our problem is not with the people, it is with governments in denial of the genocide.
H: Are you saying that the constant rhetoric of threats will not materialize?
This is not directly related to the protocols. I am saying that it will be more difficult to sustain the rhetoric of threats.
H: Are you saying that, indeed, this set of meaningless (only meaningful as a means to appease our “administration” and naive Armenians) set of “Protocols” will stop Turkish support for Azerbaijan on the Artsakh issue?
That is not the expected outcome. The goal was to decouple Karabakh from the Turkish Armenian agenda. And protocols have achieved exactly that. Critics do not deny that. Turkey may refuse to ratify the protocols and that will be the best outcome for us in this game. If they ratify the current protocols they cannot avoid a wedge in the relations with Azerbaijan.
H: Isnt’ the imminent duplicity also a damaging factor in itself? Have you ever read serious analyses of psychological warfare?
I am afraid you do not know my background. Not only I have read, I was a practitioner.
H: I am sure you have, since “you went to the best schools.” I trust Gevork Yazedjian more on this as well. He considers today’s socio-political conditions in Armenia similar to the time of embarrasing loss of Kars in 1920.
I have no idea who that is. I can only say that those who have started the campaign of hysteria about treason are contributing to that condition. If you believe that you are a loser, you will be one. That is an axiom.
H: It is not just Ayvazyan, but also, surprisingly, Avetian, Papian, and a host of others who, even though some are in fierce opposition to each other on many issues, are in agreement on this one. All the activists out there agree on this point: Turkish interests lie in the destruction of the Armenian state ultimately. You agree to this as well, and yet you ask for “damaging actions.”
I ask about damaging impact of the protocols. There is significant evidence supporting that assumption about Turkish interests. However, the goal of policy and diplomacy is in changing that not in competing who will be shouting louder about that.
H: Ironically, the blockade, as I state in the above comment on economics, was a means to prepare for the opening. You starve and exhaust your prey, and then you let it walk into the trap. Isn’t this also part of your strategy in having people repeat themselves? Which “school” taught you this, by the way?
It may be that this was part of the Turkish strategy but it was defeated. I did not quite get the question about “school” but your insistence on talking about my background reveals your complex.
H: Reality states, if indeed studied systematically and not in some queerly self-induced vacuum bubble mentality the unstated purpose of which is unclear, the geopolitical ambitions which are constantly stated are to be enforced while Armenians are forced to adhere to ”normalization processes” and more pieces of paper, bringing echoes of the Berlin Conference/Congress back to our minds.
If you mind is still in the 19th century I cannot help you, Hagop. Geopolitical ambitions are not static. But this will take us away from the subject matter – your claim that the current text of the protocols poses unstated bubbly threats to the Armenian national interests. There are more than two parties in this game – our goal is to steer adeptly to advance our national interests.
H: The recent “diplomacy” is one-sided in yields, negative for Armenians, always positive for Turks in possession of all the levers and geopolitical supports.
This is what I call loser mentality that may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
H: The Armenian economy is in shambles. The Turkish economy is booming. The Armenian state apparatus is a dusty buckaroo circus. The Turkish state apparatus is a well-oiled machine. The Armenian intelligence apparatus is semi-dependent and weak, while the MIT has a virtually self-contained multi-billion dollar city dedicated to it. The Armenian population is again shrinking in light of these “protocols,” yet the Turkish population is showing signs of faster growth.
Are these results of the protocols? It’s hard not to laugh although I disagree on Turkish economy and population shrinking in the light of these protocols. A cause and effect joke.
H: Again, the blockade is the first phase. The protocols and the “opening just late enough to pounce and early enough to be useless” is the second phase. I would bet that the impending Agdam attach is the third, to which these same “friendly entities encouraging normalization” would turn the blind eye.
The blockade is bad. Opening the border is worse. So you say. Is the attack on Aghdam based on intelligence or it is a particular acumen of your predicting capacity?
H: Russia, as I have said, is a geopolitical and ideological cripple these days, particularly and most significantly in Central Asia, and Boyadjian is correct.
Are you an expert on Central Asia now? Boyadjian is an expert on everything. What does this have to do with protocols? Build a connection, please. Armenia would help strengthen Russia’s hand in Central Asia by not signing these protocols?
H: Ayvazyan is correct. Even Karen Vrtanesyan in his Internet article mentioned the fervent anti-Armenianism building in all Turkic discourse on the Internet, even among previously neutral populations such as the Uzbek, Khirghiz and so on, and this was printed 2 years ago.
I did not know that Karen has the ability to follow the Uzbek, Kyrgiz discourse on this matter. Aivazyan is correct on what?
H: Work at the grass roots is being done in a systematic manner by pan-Turkists and their sponsors, and the AKP is not an objector, but also a (albeit more silent) supporter of this project. Turkish sponsored (i.e. brainwash) “institutes” are a functioning reality in the Russian Federation as well. Turko-Azeri integration at the intelligence level is a fact, and it is hard to swallow any counter-evidence as anything except placating propaganda.
And how this is related to the protocols?
My father Ashot Manukyan of Vanadzor has been protesting for honest government, the environment and human rights in Armenia since at least the '70s (against Soviet! authorities). He has always been honest and could have easily 'made' millions like the rest of them. We did not even cut ONE tree in Vanadzor during the mid 90s, but rather sat through the cold instead of destroying the town or stealing electricity - and he was deputy marzpet!
This story is familiar to thousands in the Diaspora surely. We have tried tirelessly to gather support since his 5 year sentence last year. Unfortunately, the VAST majority of responses (in the rare case there has been one) from Diasporan Armenians has been along the lines of "Please remove me from your list".
The people of Armenia are being suffacated by merciless corruption and greed. If they're slowly eradicated by cultural and moral genocide, who is going to be left as an anchor for any Diaspora at all? Thank you Mr. Theriault for speaking up.
To David Grigorian.
Yes, I stated that societal change could be harnessed as part of an alternative policy, but please don’t extrapolate what I said into the present, intermediate future, link it to governmental resignations or Nobel Prizes. It could be part of an alternative policy, but that policy does not exist today. Talking about with regard to these Protocols is nonsense.
I have no idea why you should assume these Protocols are “the best thing for us as a nation”.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
David Davidian, your choice of information indicates the desire to conform. The reasons will make themselves evident in the near future I expect. You "highest level awareness" is well noted, and ironically makes matters worse. You are very much aware, and yet you pretend not to understand the protocols and their actual consequences. You are singing some dove song urging Armenians with the usage of 1 dimensional logic despite your "highest level of awareness." Just as one example of an already dependent and crumbled economic infrastructure, the USAid has managed to transform the agricutural sector into a totally inter-dependent one, and that has everything to do with the impending "open border" and your half-hearted suggestions on protectionism. If you wish to continue with the dishonest bombastics, that is entirely your prerogative, but be warned that your credibility has waned to a very low level.
To David Davidian
I never said "societal change"---please look at my initial posting carefully. I was in essence talking about governance change/reform. And no, it doesn't take ages/generations to have good governance in place.
It is the idea of the proponents of protocols that this is the best thing that happened to us, not mine. My position is that why ignore all (more or less likely) alternatives and claim that this is the best thing that happened to us in recent years, or better that this is the best we could have gotten considering circumstances? Dah! This indeed may be a lot for a country whose leadership is accused of rigging elections several times in a raw and gunning down people who dared to voice their dissent against it. Don't you think "what we can get" is really a function of the shape that our house is in internally? Other things equal, if we are governed by a gang that lacks legitimacy domestically and abroad it should be easier to get consessions from them than from leaders who are actually accountable to their constituencies. If you are not convinced, just think what would happen to the "supply" and "demand" for protocols like this if there is another March 1-2 in Armenia? What part of this am I getting wrong?
I undestand Mr Hachikian. there are many who have devoted their whole lives to fighting for genocide recognition. I applaud their effort - they are true Armenians, this protocal being pushed through will undermine all that work by many people. it will also raise doubts amoung many countries that are deciding on whether to recognize the genocide.
this is to AR and his foolish comments;
Although i do not live in Armenia, i have many relatives that do. they all say they do not want relations with the turks. they also believe that genocide recognition must come before any relations. the only people that want relations with the turks are businessmen and politicians who will profit from the open border and who will sell anything (land, buildings) in armenia for a profit, these people do not care about the average armenian living in the streets. the only thing Armenia needs is a stop to corrupt politicians (sargsian, petrossian, whoever) and businessmen, restoring just order and support from the diaspora. the only time the border with turkey can open is when the turks are ready to accept responsibility for their crime and make reparations. ...
Arthur,
We are to look into the Treaty and pretend there is historical context from which to judge the imposition of "egalitarianism" in negotiations. Despite your objections against making wider scope arguments, David's entire premise is based on a wider context and why the protocols should be accepted, and my objection and that of others is that his entire chosen context is lacking to the degree of being, as one commenter put it, a Disneyland article. Our difference, if the dialog is honest, should be based on this fact. Instead, you are attempt to discredit everyone in opposition by forcing the context question, brought by your favorite author above, off the table. The only thing proven here is lack of sincerity on your behalf so far, but still since we are conationals, let there be the benefit of doubt.
This is of course appears to be destined to be a circular argument. You current and pretentious insistence (see above) is in the verbal analysis of the protocols (which has been done multiple times), and mine (and those of the vast majority of Armenians) is in laying down the context (in an attempt to correct the Disney scenario above) in which there are only preconditions within the "no preconditions" clause due to our sorry position.
If you wish to lay out the protocols verbatim, be my guest. I have read the text in Armenian and English, and I tend to agree with the critics, particularly one Alex Yenikomshian (in addition to Armen Ayvazyan himself) comes to mind.
The legal analysis is not my concern. My concern is in the general idea of conforming to clearly pro-Turkish interests and their idea of "normalization of relations," which is something curiously so omitted in the “analysis” above. However, if you wish it so, then fine, me friend. I will trust you to show me the ropes on this according to you, and perhaps your viewpoint can be better understood. Right now, you make no sense, as does not David.
As I will continue to repeat: You are a technician, a fine one. Let's see some great technical analysis of the "Protocols sitting in the clouds all by themselves" save for the "wonderful geopolitical scenario painted by David."
Now to some of the points raised.
"May be you do not confirm the truism but we are in an agreement that the protocols do not revive the Kars treaty. And you still did not understand my question I am afraid."
As my contextual objections show, I do not in any way agree to that so-called truism. Mine will stay the same until proven otherwise: The protocols will help bring about conditions in which the Kars and Moscow Treaties will be revived. I am afraid I do understand your question, and I find it to be irrelevant, unless, again, you are willing to lay down the protocols, point by point. Let's have it. You seem to think there is sensationalism and opportunism in the opposition to the protocols. Prove it. If I and others are being misled, then David's article hasn't done that job. Perhaps you can finish it.
"The answer – Turkey is evil, bloodthirsty and sly – is not an answer to this question."
The above, although laced with ridicule, is the principal answer to the contextual concerns raised by everyone, the vast majority, except a few interested parties in favor of ratification. That is a much more preferred answer than the one given in the article in question: “Turkey has now become Bambi with no horns, and now we as Thumper can lay down in the meadows and chew on leaves together. It’s all about oil and birthday candles.” On that note, I would like to explore their motives, if, of course, you can prove otherwise, that indeed there is "irrational hysteria" and that "Americans have always meant well for us by denying our history."
"I could argue that the terms of the protocols may make the job of brainwashing more difficult. We will have a foot in that process. Right now we don’t, we are not a player in shaping their perceptions. Can we become a player? I believe we can and it is better to be in the game than outside. Any propaganda expert will tell you that stereotypes are easier to maintain when the other side is not involved. True, this may require that some Armenians change their views of the Turks. But our problem is not with the people, it is with governments in denial of the genocide."
Again, since you are insisting of only dealing with the text of the protocols themselves, then, by all means, argue away. Explain away the latest trends in furthering the anti-Armenian indoctrination at the grass roots and public education level and how the protocols address this. Which clause or clauses in the protocols address education of the school children, the content of textbooks? Where have we seen any serious inroads apart from Dink's funeral procession? We have seen 12 million anti-Armenian DVDs distributed to the school systems as part of the compulsory education. Do the protocols address the 12 million DVDs? I will reserve the liberty of talking about context, or that missing from the "context" outlined by Davidian above, in the meanwhile. Anything about downsizing their military? Anything about removing bases targeting Armenia? Anything about abandoning their military intelligence programs and the Armenian language program intended for anti-Armenian covert/subversion activities? Anything about the constant barrage of obviously state-driven Internet activity against Armenians? I would be surprised if the current government even conceives of such things.
On the constant rhetoric of threats, you say “This is not directly related to the protocols. I am saying that it will be more difficult to sustain the rhetoric of threats.”
I disagree. They are related. These are peace negotiations, negotiations toward “normalization,” correct? Why then are not the elimination of belligerent policies against Armenia included as a provision for peace? Oh, I forgot, it all falls under the “no preconditions” umbrella. Isn’t that what Clinton keeps on barking?
On the question of Turkey’s abandonment of their fanatically racist policy of supporting Azerbaijan on the Artsakh, you say, quite evasively, “this is not the expected outcome.” The “decoupling” of Artsakh is proven by the lack of mention in the protocols? OK, one item I would like to discuss is the cloudy language in the protocols regarding this: The protocols do stipulate the “internationally recognized borders of both states,” which, thanks to pro-Turkish NATO block and its dominant set of lobbies, Artsakh is still printed as part of Azerbaijan at Rand McNally. I would call that a Turkish precondition, of course. I don’t see any “decoupling.” I see re-affirmation of the current anti-Armenian Turkish policy toward Artsakh.
To my concerns about the potential and likely (due to enough precedential support) duplicitous actions of Turkish, you say, “I am afraid you do not know my background. Not only I have read, I was a practitioner.”
My response to that is that I am afraid that I understand perfectly the background without the need for much detail.
“I have no idea who that is. I can only say that those who have started the campaign of hysteria about treason are contributing to that condition. If you believe that you are a loser, you will be one. That is an axiom.”
Gevork Yazedjian is a doctorate candidate of History at the YSU who recently resigned from his position in protest against these protocols. He is also the author of an article entitled “The True Causes Behind the Fall of Kars,” http://ararat-center.org/upload/files/Razm_&_Anvtang_16.pdf
If you don’t exercise self-criticism, if you don’t learn from history, you’ll continue to be the loser. That is also an axiom. Below you are again ridiculing the evocation of past events either as lessons or as reminders of long term and unflinching objectives of a proven belligerent. What is the motive behind such petty misinformation attempts?
“I ask about damaging impact of the protocols.”
As I say above, I’ve given my answers. Now you give yours.
“It may be that this was part of the Turkish strategy but it was defeated. I did not quite get the question about “school” but your insistence on talking about my background reveals your complex.”
The pattern is only prolonged due to the Soviet delay. Nothing has been defeated. That’s more Disneyland material at play, and thus the reason for this seemingly circular argument. As to the “schools” deal, I just laughingly remember your “justification for being regarded as an expert” in past debates; i.e. “I went to the best schools” and there you are the smartest. That is still something funny we joke about here whenever this above “team” comes to mind.
“Geopolitical ambitions are not static.” This is such a grand sounding phrase that means nothing when dealing with states who still boast of their “ambitions to return to their Ottoman glory” and other such rhetoric, while constantly enlarging and upgrading an army already far larger than their economy can legitimately support, while building a support base for pan-Turkism throughout the Turkic speaking world at a pace and with budget that also cannot be justified economically. Also, notice the petty tactic of using the timeline analogy of one sentence to “put my mind in the 19th century.” We are with not much more than a paper ladle (refer to this http://armenianhouse.org/khrimyan-hayrik/loving-father.html). I actually think we don’t even have a ladle, but an overworked dishrag with this government.
“The blockade is bad. Opening the border is worse. So you say. Is the attack on Aghdam based on intelligence or it is a particular acumen of your predicting capacity?”
I see, you and David’s “predictions” are valid, those such as “Genocide recognition will occur because there are 5 authors who are on our side, while there only about 12,000,000 or so potential authors against us due to constant ‘education’ efforts. We will have a hand in formulating Turkish policy now. Hurrah!” I just don’t see any realism. You’re certainly not convincing me, and I am of the more receptive sort. You should see what’s going on in the general population out there!
“Are you an expert on Central Asia now? Boyadjian is an expert on everything. What does this have to do with protocols? Build a connection, please. Armenia would help strengthen Russia’s hand in Central Asia by not signing these protocols?”
I am not an expert on Central Asia, but I read into the topic. Are you? I already wrote enough about the Central Eurasian project, something about which there is much material on the Internet, which includes Armenia and the rest of the Caucasus in the “Neo-Ottomanist” fold of “futurists,” which are, it just so happens, in the employ of the intelligence services of those interested powers in the “protocols.” You are now saying the ambitions of interested powers by their “futurist” propagandists is of no consequence and has bearing in the political reality? Like I said, Walt Disney would be proud of this article and its supporters.
You’re wasting time, mostly yours.
David Grigorian, when he says "nation," perhaps he means the United States of America. After all, he's a fine and loyal employee of the IMF. Congratulate him on his fine workings. He was promoted from the World Bank to the IMF, and his "opus magnum" was his article on lack of taxation in Armenia. Perhaps he sees hope in better taxation through intimidation, i.e. more "representation" of Americans in Armenian taxation policies, to better pay those big loans with the population's meager income.
Bravo Mr Hachikian!
A Voice from the Diaspora
Unnoticed we survived,
And again thrived
But to this very day we remind
With truth and dignity by our side
The Lord is our guide
Armed with truth we decry
Those who label our genocide a lie
For the truth will arise before their very eye
Pushing forth justice that remains a far cry
So suddenly to endorse a pair of protocol
That can only be ratified by drinking more alcohol
How dare Sarkisian squander my rights from our capitol?
Offering concessions that follow no overhaul
With or without our republic we must stonewall
Can this roadmap be without the Diaspora after all?
A President no longer willing to fight
For the cause of justice so right
Castrated from all his might,
He relinquishes our right
If there was ever a deadline so tight,
When our community must unite,
To battle day and night without any fright
Today marks that day, not in a fortnight.
Arthur, In addition, in response to your constant laughters, my sources in Yerevan tell me that housing prices have plumetted to the point that you are able to purchase formerly $150k apartments at the center of town for a mere 30k. There is a serious matter of concern here, but you laugh.
In my previous post the first sentence was msityped. It should read "We are to look into the Treaty and pretend there is no historical context from which to judge the imposition of “egalitarianism” in negotiations"
Hagop, you have been beating around the bush with megabytes of a text without answering a simple question -- What are the consequences of the protocols for the Armenian national interests?
We have heard anything and everything from Israeli hackers and Miloshevich to Turkish intelligence prowess and Russia losing it in Central Asia but not an answer to this question. Can you give us in five to ten bullet points the negative consequences as you'd report your strategic advice to a decision-maker of your choice. If you have ever written a policy paper, you'd understand what I am asking. Otherwise we can spend here many days hearing from you that Boyajian is correct, Aivazian is correct, Tadevosian is correct, Matevosian is correct...
Sorry, mr.Theriault, but where you've been on last year march the 2-nd?
I think that you have missed the point on Miloshevich, Hagop. It is more of a metaphor than literal analogy. The metaphor of miscalculation when someone is saying no to the option on the table thinking that he or she has a much better alternative. You do not need to read about this - talk to any Serb in Kosovo whether the bad option on the table in Chateau Rambouillet on March 23, 1999 was better than what Yugoslavia (Serbia) got now, and you will get a unanimous answer. The alternative to the bad deal was much, much worse. I am not implying that protocols should be compared to the bad deal in Rambouillet. All I am saying and reading in David's article is we cannot afford a Miloshevich kind of miscalculation.
Dear Mihran,
For a former diplomat you are too easily thrown off balance with a word combination that you apparently misinterpreted. I did not apply that word to your writing but to the high flown words that some people use to put on airs of expertise. I am glad to note that you acknowledge that these exchanges are read by other friends or foes. All you need to do with this awareness is think before you distribute paranoid conspiracies about Serge as a Russian GRU agent, LTP as Israeli, Russian and Turkish agent, Kocharyan as an Iranian agent...
To David Grigorian:
You wrote: "the alternative to opportunistic moves on the external front (i.e., the protocols) would be the domestic reform agenda."
I translated domestic reform into societal reform and commented in kind.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Hagop Nalbandian:
What are you talking about? You keep on making claims as if I am a one-man conspiracy engine: maybe CIA-like, maybe not , engaging in misinformation, but not really. Now you claim I choose information to conform! Conform to what? You claim I know the real impact of the Protocol but pretend otherwise as if I am hiding something.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Hagop,
I can laugh at that too -- I have an apartment in downtown Yerevan. The bubble was doomed. More seriously, I do not always follow the cause and effect logic of your meanderings around my straightforward question: what are the consequences for the Armenian national interests from these protocols? Did the real estate market bubble bust because of the protocols too? Reminds me a Kosovo Serb joke about a typical answer to the question - Why are you throwing garbage into the street? - Because the entire world is against us.
Moreover, if I were to buy your arguments and line of reasoning about Armenia's weakness in relative and absolute terms, the only conclusion I can draw is there is no good alternative to signing the protocols. Why? Because even if we were not as weak as you are portraying, messing with the interests of regional powers can be costly. If you insist on telling them No, and that's what is on the mind of Armenia's greatest strategic minds, you assume that they (powers) will let their interests suffer, drink cold Jermuk and walk away... This is laughable. Pathetic. Why not instead play the game and redirect their pressure on Turkey? Let them say No and gain from their Yes too.
Hagop, sorry but I do not have time for your long responses misrepresenting what I am saying. I can only continue this discussion if you put out five to ten bullet points on negative consequences of the protocols to the Armenian national interests. You do not need to start in the 19th century or in Central Asia. Can you do me this favor and complete this sentence? If Armenia signs and both parliaments ratify, there will be these negative consequences to the Armenian national interests --
1... because ...
2... because ...
etc.
TO MIHRAN:
An Excellent Poem.. BRAVO..
I got chills after reading it.. it truly captures everything that goes on right now...
This should be mailed to the President and his entourage...
G
Hagop opined:
The protocols will help bring about conditions in which the Kars and Moscow Treaties will be revived.
Wrong. There is nothing about these treaties explicitly in the protocols. If we were to venture into implicit, suggestive meanings, I would argue that an implicit recognition of borders exists in many multilateral international agreements signed by Armenia in early 90s and these too do not revive the Moscow treaty - it was not even signed by a representative of Armenia. The Kars treaty was signed under coercion by Bolshevik representatives at a time when the new Armenian Soviet government was only recognized by Bolshevik Russia. Case dismissed if it were about legal arguments.
To Hagop Nalbandian.
A very short reply to your many rhetorical questions is this - the purpose of the protocols is different. "Normalization" cannot be addressed in one agreement. It is beginning of a process. It starts with establishing diplomatic relations and opening the border. We can say yes to that beginning or we can say no and continue to play the ostrich game. Do you need a quote from the protocol on various consultative mechanisms? The difference in our approaches is obvious. The "voch" sayers raise many relevant to normalization questions but they do not want these addressed, they want to continue to beat the dead horse hoping that others will do it for us. Guess what, they won't because our "no" is not in their interests. The "no" will invite more pressure on Armenia from all angles with dire diplomatic and political consequences.
TO DIKRANIAN...
Apres... an Excellent Post.. I have my dad's side living in Armenia.. All 300 of them and still growing despite the unfavorable situation in our country and I worry every day about their well being.. and this is not because they are poor and rely on us for survival or work their bones to put food on their table to live another day.. they are very content and thankful what little they have.. what they don't want is a President that will feed them to the wolves... without caring and thinking about the regular citizen and only concentrating on those who can give them free money.. free to them of course.. but to us is money that comes with great consequences.. that money is blood money for us.. the money will burn our country down..
TO AR: I understand that not everyone will have the same thoughts, insights and point views and you are an individual with your own values and concerns and beliefs.. and I am not blaming you for what you say.. however, what I would recommend is to truly look at the bigger picture and put those people who needs us first and not the govt who can care less what happens at the end as long as they are taken care of..
I just hope that our efforts that we put in for years and years to accomplish a goal won't be crushed with a pen... a hand that will be compared to the bloody hand of Taalat Pasha if these protocols are signed...
G
Hagop, I understand that my educational and professional background makes you and your comrades green from laughter and\or envy, but I cannot help you or Boyajian in dealing with that complex. I am prone to laugh at self-styled experts who at best read Friedman or some other garbage like that. And I cannot resist the temptation again. Sorry, if it is going to hurt. I do not talk about things that I do not know or know at the level of Boyajians of this world. For example, I would never engage in a debate with you on public health issues or whatever else your professional background is. I know that it is not mine.
H: I am not an expert on Central Asia, but I read into the topic. Are you? I already wrote enough about the Central Eurasian project, something about which there is much material on the Internet, which includes Armenia and the rest of the Caucasus in the “Neo-Ottomanist” fold of “futurists,” which are, it just so happens, in the employ of the intelligence services of those interested powers in the “protocols.”
So that you know, not only I read, I have worked, traveled and spoken to many a decision-maker from Central Asia. Sorry, but I am not interested in your opinions. You are a dilettante at best and there are one too many on Internet these days. The right word here is graphomaniacs.
H: You are now saying the ambitions of interested powers by their “futurist” propagandists is of no consequence and has bearing in the political reality? Like I said, Walt Disney would be proud of this article and its supporters.
Yes, I do. Friedman is a futurologist. I have yet to find a State Department desk officer who is taking his scribbles seriously. As to Disney, I am sorry to say but that is exactly the place or more precisely the bla-bla-land that most of truisms and banal statements with no bearing for policy that you have been advancing belong.
H: You’re wasting time, mostly yours.
Fully agreed. In all honesty, I did that trying to learn in good faith more about positions of the "voch" sayers. I do not have time to educate people in the basics of policy-making.
Sargysian, because of his election being deemed fraudulent by the international community, has already cost the Armenian nation over 60 million US dollars in the Millenium package. Ken and the ANCA does do great work however we cannot expect greatness for Armenia without also persuing true democracy, freedom and media without censorship. Maybe, instead of asking all others to recognize our own genocide we should strive toward uniting together in one cause ourselves first.
Sargysian is a thug and a traitor and needs to go. Let's not forget, it was an Armenian who gave Talaat the names of the 250 or so intellectuals who were arrested and murdered. Sargysian is doing the same for purely self interest. What an idiot. There is no such thing as freindship with Turks. All their relationships or actions are based upon opportunity or gain. This is no different.
TO: JOHN
You could not be more right by saying WE, the ARMENIAN people, should love, respect, and unite ourselves FIRST and then go after other nations to side with us..
A friend of mine who is not an Armenian told me that if our own president does not respect democracy and does not love his people, then why would other countries side with us? He said our president must have gotten some sort of a deal from Turkey and US if he is this strongly protects these protocols.. We got into a very heated discussion about this...The more and more i read and hear about this, the more I think my friend is completly right.. He has no emotional ties and he speaks his mind as is and he definitely hit the bull's eye when it told me we need to get our ties strong and not be afraid to speak our minds no matter what the outcome would be.. and having a President who goes after his own gain is nothing new but giving away his country is unexcusable..
G
Mr. Ken Hachikian's comments addressed to the president of Armenia Serge Sarksyan on behalf of ANCA at the Oct. 3 meeting in New York is simply outrageous. How dare he, Mr. Hachikian, address the president of Armenia in such a shameless tone? This is typical American arrogance that has permeated into the veins of some Armenian-Americans leading to absolute disregard of decency and civility. The repugnant behavior of Mr. Hachikian should be rejected by every self-respecting Armenian.
The Armenian-Turkish relation is one most complex political dilemmas in the modern world. The complexity of the issue comes from the shameful denial of Armenian Genocide by Turkish authorities. However, it is important to understand that the contemporary political configuration does not leave any alternatives to the president of RA. Considering the established realities and also the fact that the Republic of Armenia may potential benefit from the reopening of the borders(closed in 1993), the protocols are not harmful for the Republic of Armenia. Besides, the protocols with Turkey, which supported Azerbaijan in the frozen Nagono-Kharabakh conflict, indicate an indisputable diplomatic success of the young Armenian state backed by the rising "Northern Star".
the turks and the kurds will take over in armenia, and intermarriages will become frequent. this is the future with the protocals and we can do nothing about it.it will become worse than Artsahk, and worse then what happaned in Serbia(Yugoslavia), worse than Georgia.We will loose the country we have left, and this is only the beginning.
Dear Sirs:
It seems good that some agreement with Turkey would be a good attempt. One does not have to rewrite history and in creating relations with Turkey could lead to benefits for each country. The two neighboring countries can attempt to work together without sacrificing the integrity of the Armenian people and its history.
Bryan Haserjian
Los Angeles
Dear Mr Davidian, I want to express my support for your point of view, hoping that more people will come to realize the necessity of open talks. Your article is well structured and more importantly properly argument-ed. I also want to thank you for the objectivity, contributed to the complex international relations in the Caucasus region. This also involves the Republic of Armenia, which, as a member of the international community, has to be able maneuver diplomatically, following the rules and regulations of modern diplomacy.
In disagree with Mr. Sasoonian's conclusion. The som called protocals will not be ratified by Republic of Armenia. I am mazed that Mr. Sassonian failed to remind Mr. President that these protocals are anti-constitutional of republic of Armenia. The Declaration of Independence of Armenia which is foundation of the Constitution of the Republic Armenia calls for promting Armenian Genocide that took place in Ottoman Armenia by Ottoman Turk. The texts distinguishes Ottoman Armenia from Ottoman Turks which clearly means Western Armenia.
To fight these protocols the short and effective route is the Constitution itself.
We have to refer to the Constitution any time we have the chance to discuss these so called protocals.
I have yet to see a sensible analysis regarding what is occurring in the Caucasus... To imply that Russia is about to undermine their only ally in the south Caucasus, after they have successfully defeated the American, Turkish, Israeli and European backed regime in Tbilisi is absurd to say the least. The entire Caucasus region is now in Moscow's hands and now they are using Armenia to project their power beyond the Caucasus. To imply that Turkey will outsmart Russians, Armenians and Iranians in the Caucasus when they are in reality dependent on Russian trade, gas and oil is, simply put - stupid. You folks seriously need to study geopolitics and monitor what is occurring in the Russian Federation today. Armenia has not been in a better position, politically speaking, in perhaps a thousand years. Those against the "protocols" are against them for emotional, ignorant and/or selfish reasons. The diaspora's sick obsession with the genocide has cornered it psychologically. So much so that now it can't think outside of the "genocide" perspective. And the only one putting a wedge between the diaspora and Armenia is us diasporans. Shame on you for 'demanding' things from authorities in Yerevan when it is the natives of Armenia that are to live with the consequences of politics and not you. Shame on you all for being so selfish and narrow minded. Want to complain, move to Armenia first.
Given the recent remarks by the President of Armenia, it becomes evident that his trip to Europe, America and Lebanon were a last-minute plan for face-saving purposes. The Armenians in diaspora have the legitimate right to be consulted "before" any pre-commitment by the government of Armenia to sign a poorly drafted protocol that spells disaster for all Armenians.
Obviously, Turkey will not endorse a protocol that includes Armenian refusal to any concessions on the Armenian genocide and Artsakh. Mr. President: Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
This is outright outrageous..
What nerve does Sarkisian have to go through this? I am burning with hate and anger.. One thing he instilled in Armenians all over the world.. Not a great way to be remembered..
I am utterly speechless.. just speechless and defenseless... Thank you Sarkisian and his gang of traitors... You completly finished what Turks started.. getting away with Armenia and its people, history, culture, and survival.
Bravo..
G
Arthur Martirosyan, you’ve typing a lot, but not answering any questions, which perhaps indicates that you have no answers, only the desire to obfuscate and discredit.
-
“What are the consequences of the protocols for the Armenian national interests?”
I’ve already stated them. if you consider that a show of “dilettantism,” then, as you are the one who has school book reports and papers on the topic, present them. I have not beat around any bush.
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“I think that you have missed the point on Miloshevich, Hagop. It is more of a metaphor than literal analogy.”
Oh, certainly, a “metaphor and not an analogy,” a perfectly acceptable (although needless) semantic adjustment. Ok, the Milosevic metaphor does not apply here since the situation in Yugoslavia was predetermined by those who wished to dismember it, in which scenario the principal player turned out to be the unified Germany. Read again Tim Carr’s article. That’s my source. If you have something ore concrete that says otherwise, then provide that information. It’s always a pleasure to read reliable information. I just don’t get that impression from David’s article.
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“I can laugh at that too – I have an apartment in downtown Yerevan. The bubble was doomed.”
That’s acceptable enough of an answer, at least to partially explain the price drops, but the matter changes when you actually ask people why they are selling. Then, suddenly the picture changes to match my proposed situation: i.e. People are selling and going out of fear. Does it do any harm to ask the question? I cannot be harmed. I care not about my reputation. I have no ties, no affiliations. I can ask what I wish. That’s different from your apparently tangled position, one that does apparently prevent you from acknowledging certain solidly proven facts and to ridicule them, the sure sign of someone in the employ. Was that enough of “not beating around the bush?” Has the bush been trimmed enough? You should see the emails I’m getting on this (you never will, but nevertheless, your actions are properly judged by many a reader).
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“ I can only continue this discussion if you put out five to ten bullet points on negative consequences of the protocols to the Armenian national interests.”
My apologies for not being clear, but that burden, since you have written so many book reports and school essays on this, is on you to provide specific points as to why the protocols are not damaging to Armenian national interests. The case is open, and the majority of Armenians, familiar and unfamiliar with the text, say that this set of agreements is potentially disastrous. Explain, in 10 bullet points, why they are not.
… because…
… because…
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“There is nothing about these treaties explicitly in the protocols. If we were to venture into implicit, suggestive meanings, I would argue that an implicit recognition of borders exists in many multilateral international agreements signed by Armenia in early 90s and these too do not revive the Moscow treaty”
“A very short reply to your many rhetorical questions is this – the purpose of the protocols is different. “Normalization” cannot be addressed in one agreement. It is beginning of a process”
Great, then you agree that this is a process, but not of normalization; instead it is the process of re-colonization of Armenia. Once in such a colonized mode, Armenia can be once again declared a protectorate as per the Moscow Treaty guidelines. If not, then explain, in no less than 5 bullet points, why the protocols reverse this trend of colonization.
“Do you need a quote from the protocol on various consultative mechanisms? The difference in our approaches is obvious.”
For the millionth time, yes, I need your input on the protocols. If we are indeed being misled by political opportunists, then I would like to know before I continue participating in a farce. Nevertheless, the fuel to my distrust was boosted by the article above, which does not paint a realistic picture. All I need is acknowledgment that we are not merely dealing with a “neighbor” but a belligerent enemy. If you pretend otherwise, then nothing you say will be worth a pile of dung, and it does not matter what your level of expertise. Right now the opposition is more trustworthy.
“The Kars treaty was signed under coercion by Bolshevik representatives…”
Yes, yes, we know now the details of the Kars Treaty and its legal flaws. It’s still irrelevant, since it was in force and partly enforced despite its flaws.
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“Hagop, I understand that my educational and professional background makes you and your comrades green from laughter and\or envy,”
I actually never envy someone in your position, Arthur. I pity people who have entangled themselves as such. If Friedman is garbage, if Goble is full of hot air, then explain NATO expansion that has cut directly into Warsaw Pact territory. Explain the loss of Russian control in Central Asia, or, that new regional perimeter of “Central Eurasia” carefully crafted to include Turkey and the Caucasus among the Central Asia states. Put my mind at ease and say that “The protocols, in clause 3a and clause 5b say that this is no problem for this and that reason.” Explain to me why the conditions of having to share power in the Caucasus between Russia and Turkey cannot come about because “it says so in the protocols that Turkey cannot become a colonial power with ambitions to expand direct influence to Central Asia under the Central Eurasian banner.” Tell me why the facts collected that show pan-Turkism saturation at the grass roots and institutional levels in Central Asia is a “figment of imagination” that will be “blasted away with the protocols.” You’ve been sloshing down cognac with Nazarbaev, right? Tell me, what does old Nursultan say about pan-Turkists and their efforts in Khazakhstan? I think that you are a very underrated dilettante (and perhaps overpaid) as well, sir, very underrated. Put my mind at ease there as well, and tell me what you have actually done in Central Asia, and, of course, the 100 bullet points from the protocol explaining why the opposition is “lying, acting irrationally, spreading propaganda,” and so on.
“Yes, I do. Friedman is a futurologist. I have yet to find a State Department desk officer who is taking his scribbles seriously. As to Disney, I am sorry to say but that is exactly the place or more precisely the bla-bla-land that most of truisms and banal statements with no bearing for policy that you have been advancing belong.”
Desk officers, right, those “decision makers” indeed. Chevron and Lloyds are quaking in their boots when thinking of those “desk officers.” Walt would be proud.
“Fully agreed. In all honesty, I did that trying to learn in good faith more about positions of the “voch” sayers. I do not have time to educate people in the basics of policy-making.”
Right, then explain, beyond “desk officers,” why policy-making is not foreshadowed in the ramblings of very closely intelligence affiliated “futurologists.” Put my mind at ease with your “policy making expertise.” Your objective is to put minds at ease with “truth and light” correct? Then shine on, brother! Let’s see some light, perhaps in 10 bulleting points.
David Davidian,
My message is clear, and no ambiguity exists. You are a person who feels the intense need for wider approval, and for this reason you are one who adheres to the "mainstream of thought" as mandated by the ruling mainstream, which happens to be rabidly pro-Turkish in their stance. "Turkey is a valuable ally, duh, duh." Armen Ayvazyan doesn't give a damn about the "American mainstream," and for this reason I trust him a hell of a lot more as an independent thinker. Granted, no one is omniscient, no layman, no expert, no one, but some are more independent in their expression on issues than others. For example, you are still using "Eastern Anatolia," a false and Turk sponsored and totally unscientific toponym for the Armenian plateau. That is a true mark of your mentality, which feigns from making any statements that might be considered "on the fringe, too radical." You therefore make many tiny and perhaps already quite unconscious adjustments to conform to the "mainstream." I do not ever directly make you an affiliate with any organization. I do recognize that you work independently, but you do certainly not think as independently as you definitely could, given the tremendous amount of knowledge you have on this topic (albeit with only entry level familiarity on ancient armenia history). Try to see the point of those who are constantly painted by obvious operatives for the various NATO affiliated institutions as "extreme nationalists." They have valid things to say because they are out of this mindset and its circle of influence.
In reply to Papken Hartunian, regarding the Constitutional Court of Armenia, wasn't the President of the court, Gagik Harutiunian on tour with Sarkisian? What do you expect, the case would be if the issue went to the Constitutional Court? the "Heritage" party has made a motion, already... we know the outcome. Do you think Mr Gagik Harutiunian would say this is wrong? this is what happens when the executive body (governement) and judiciary go on tour, just like a circus, to entertain people... no one cares about the people my friend, it's all about the money... they've taken whatever they could from Armenia, and now, "let's open the borders, and make some more money"... and some of our diasporan boneless personas chew whatever he says... Quo vadis, Armenia???
To David Davidian,
Thank you for an objective and excellent analysis of our current state of affairs.
Your name is familiar to me from the early years of Internet when you were intelligently debating in the Armenian-Turkish newsgroups.
Thank you.
Abriss & long live the Armenian community of Lebanon. You are still the vibrant heart and soul of the Armenian Diapora. Although the Armenian Community in Lebanon has shrunk and deminished in numbers, since the times that I was there and left (early 1970's), it still commands respect. Recently, I was in Bourj Hammoud during the Lebanese elections, seeing the organization and actions of our Armenians there, made me proud of my Armenian ancestry and origin.
President Sarkissian, open your eyes and ears, open your heart to the pleas, wishes and demands of Armenians worldwide. Do not become a second Vasag, Armenians do not forgive traitors easily, It has been over 15 centuries since Vasag's treason and no Armenian has named his son Vasag.
Long live the Armenian Nation, Long Live the Armenian Diaspora, victory is ours.
Asbet Balanian
former member of Aghbalian Badanegan Miutyun
currently Philadelphia, PA USA
Every word in your article means a lot to every one who did not visit the place where our hearts
belong.
Dear Alex, explain what objective means. Does objective, for example, mean "ignore dangers and dismiss all anti-Armenian actions increasing volume on the Turkish side?" Does objective mean adopt the position of pretense that "we can make Turkey accept the genocide and we will be able to participat on domestic policy making withinTurkey due to these protocols?" After these points have been refuted and no reseponse can be given, is it then "objectivity" to side-step these questions and move about in ad hominem territory and call all sources of the opposition "garbage, lies, panic attacks?" Perhaps there are panic attacks, but can one be blamed if one is a nation who has yet to recover from Turkish genocidal politics, part of which is the territoriality which the "protocols wish to protect"? Is he "objective" because the article is truly that falwless, or is it becuase he's your past hoer?
The last word is a mistype for "hero"
Dear Tatul,
Thanks for your hearty Stanzas
We can't stop feeling with the others--
As we feel what they felt,
Sylva
_______________________________
Neda: Nedaa, which means "Call" in Arabic Poetic Language,
"The Freedom Called Her to Be the Martyr"
Someone must be...
And She was the one,
Her beautiful innocent eyes,
Were shut by a tyrant,
So called religious young man
Who cannot be more than a trained slayer
He was praying for whom—
Was his genes developed from a devil?
Sylva Portoian
June 2009
TO: ARMEN
I am sorry but did I misread your statement or you are honestly being serious?
Are you using Sarkissian and decency and civility in the same sentence? We all do respect and I hate to put down another Armenian because I believe we have done that too many time and too long and that is why we are where we are, BUT if one leader who disregards his OWN people's cries and treats them like TURKS.. yes TURKS.. ignor and push aside..and kill silently then where is HIS dignity and civility?
I am sorry but I do not agree with you.. I understand why Mr. Hachikian addressed the way he did.. HE himself had and frankly I plus millions of Armenians have HAD IT with mafia run govt who instead of having their own citizens' well being in their agenda they are thinking about their pocket and belly.. I have no respect for govt and/OR PRESIDENT in that matter and will have no respect until he proves us otherwise.. I am sure he is a great individual (don't know myself) but as a leader he gets an F-...
Thank you
David,
Though the reference to a blockade in a EU statement is good find, I suggest the following standard definition of blockade:
"A blockade is an effort to cut off the communications of a particular area by force. It is distinct from a siege in that a blockade is usually directed at an entire country or region, rather than a fortress or city. Also, a blockade historically took place at sea, with the blockading power seeking to cut off all maritime transport from and to the blockaded country. Stopping all land transport to and from an area may also be considered a blockade."
I rather rely on Wikipedia or Webster when it comes to exact definitions of situations and acts, instead of an EU politician's loose statements. You should do the same.
I am not really sure why there is an insistance on this distorion of a common word. Is there a propaganda value? Does it make Turkey look more like a villain and Armenia more like a victim? One almost forgets that the reason for the emabargo was the unilateral, Russian-backed violence and crimes against humanity by Armenia; not Azerbeycan or Turkey. Turkey certainly has the right to associate with whomever they want at any level they desire as a soverign nation. No one talks of a USA blockade of Cuba, rather a USA embargo. I find your word games on this and other issues I have raised a little disingenius and insincere.
Do not get me wrong, it was certainly not purely humanitarian reasons that have resulted in the embargo. Azerbeycan is a close ally, and importance goes beyond ethnic and cultural ties also. It was unthinkable for Turkey not to react in some fashion. Similarly, I do not see how protocols can move forward if Armenia does not show even a symbolic move on the issue of Karabag. It is simply not possible.
Diplomats know this well. They just did not concoct these protocols without developing a clear picture of the next few moves.
I think the protocols will divide the Armenians of the diaspora and those living in Armenia and that this may be recognized and perhaps intended/favored/predicted by Turkey and all its allies. It is greatly important for diasporan Armenians to maintain their efforts for genocide recognition and like the Jews support their country at all costs.
Some of the contributors have to learn brevity, otherwise very informative. I agree with Arthur that the best outcome is if Turkey defected, i.e. did not ratify the deal.
I have found a recent dichotomy between 'normalisation' and 'reconciliation' (possibly inspired by Hrant Dink) quite useful in setting the limits for a particular initiative, policy or protocol. In this way, we may view the scope for a normalising protocol: establishing diplomatic, economic and socio-cultural interaction. The clearance of public institutions from a language that perpetuates hatred towards the other can only belong to the sphere of 'reconciliation'. That is, the normalisation of relations cannot perform the acts of reconciliation by itself, which are perhaps due to a long process of mutual understanding and 'healing'. So I find Mrs. Gunaysu's reason for saying 'no' as overtly perfectionistic, unrealistic and absurd! Before the accomplishment of what she mentions (the correction of the content of emnity-spreading textbooks etc) we (Armenians and Turks) must first start talking...
Artur Mardirosian and Tavit Tavitian,
If I may, all the gigbytes amount to you saying that these Protocols are the best option that RA has at this crossroads (or possibly in the hole that it has put itself into). I may even agree with you, notwithstanding the concern about RA competence to take advantage of the little precious that may still be available as endspiel. However, I think you are missing and important point here:
If you have facts (and we won't ask you for scanned copies of documents) showing that these Protocols, after alienating the diaspora and our non-Armenian friends, prevent the Turkish tanks from having a joyride across Zangezur with the Russians watching from the hills, please say so. Or are you saying that it is not possible to prevent it anymore, regardless of exactly in what direction RA bows?
This has been done in Armenian history before and we can abuse our keyboards now because someone did not bow then. The rest is intellectual impotence, chest-beating, exercise in smooth talk and, I regret to say, arrogance.
Greg
I agree with Manokian...if these protocols pass, then soon enough, Armenia will fall into the hands of the turks. The Armenian diaspora will not allow this, there will be a revolt far worse than March 1.
After following the debate about the role of Russia, it would be interesting to see the Russian official position on the protocols as expressed by the spokesperson of the Russian Foreign Ministry, who believes that "The establishment of good-neighborly relations between Armenia and Turkey will contribute to the lessening of tension, enhancing peace and security in Transcaucasian region" http://news.am/en/news/6133.html
if the article still holds true then the Russian government is clearly unaware what their interests are and Mr. Boyajian needs to provide his "sound" advise to the Kremlin to protect their rights.
Like Israel, Armenia is surrounded by hostile muslim neighbors. Like Israel, we have to decide whether it is in our best interests to maintain our neighbors as enemies or to work together to make peace once and for all. Most muslims do not acknowledge the holocaust but we ask Israel to work with Palestinians and other muslim neighbors. We have to do the same if we want to survive and avoid another genocide. People are like mirrors, and our hatred of the turks goes back much farther than 1915 or 1895. It goes back to the crusades when we assisted in the mass murder of muslims. And during World War I, some Armenians sided with Russia against the Ottoman Empire in an effort to reclaim Armenia. While it was not proper to brand all Armenians as having committed treason, and the genocide was clearly a crime against humanity of atrocious proportions, we may not have had independence but we were dominating Ottoman society and had many high positions. You can lay low and survive, or you can be arrogant and take on a stronger enemy. Read Sun Tzu's The Art of War. We took on a more populous enemy and lost big time. Muslims are growing in population at an unbelievable pace. Unless you are willing and able to wipe them all out, you have to be accepting of them. Jews dominate because they work together. Armenians individually are highly intelligent and sophisticated, but we almost never work together. We constantly argue and that is why thoughout history we have been divided and conquered. The Turks of today did not commit the atrocities of the Ottoman Empire 100 years ago. Why should they live in constant antagonism and have to feel hatred toward themselves? Must all Christians hate Muslims and must all Muslims hate Christians? Science is showing more and more facts about the origin and evolution of our planet and solar system that were not available to the sheep herders who came up with these religions thousands of years ago, and yet to this day, we cling to archaic divisions of "people" and ethnic and religious culture. If not for Judaism, there would have been no holocaust. I'm not saying all religion is bad but most religions turn their backs on morality as soon as they confont a different point of view. We need to "grow up" as a species and evolve to the next level where we begin to appreciate the fact that we are all one species on a planet and if an asteroid comes, we experience a solar flare, or there is a massive earthquake along an age old national border, or a country drops a bomb on its next door neighbor, everyone loses. If you are not strong enough to defeat an enemy, befriend the enemy or build alliances. We are not even allied with each other and until we do that, we will never be able to build allies with others. Ethnic hatred and finger pointing is baseless. Read about the year 1099. It was a sad year for Christianity but it is rarely taught in Christian schools. It made 1915 look like child's play. And we were the perpetrators. At least "we" who claim to follow Christ. The second coming has been predicted for over 2,000 years. I, for one, will take a rain check. As it turns out, the earth is round, we go around the sun, not the other way around, and that's not hell beneath the earth's crust. It's called lava, here let me spell it for you L-A-V-A. And in about 10 million years, the sun will expand, engulf the earth and end all life as we know it. That's what we ought to be teaching in schools. Unfortunately, too many of us are still operating with the mentality of Homo Erectus.
Hye, Carpa diem! (Seize the day)! Actually only Latin that I can remember....
Manooshag
I tend to agree with the thrust of Greg's comment. With all due respect to intellectual rigor and experience of Arthur A. and David D., I am concerned that we are at a point where we are arguing about things we have no clue about. (As an economist, I am fine with making assumptions, but let's make that clear that we are actually making assumptions as opposed to discussing facts). I have participated in enough high-level negotiations to know that much of the toxic topics remains within the walls of the conference rooms and never gets to the pages of the memoranda of understanding that get signed between parties after talks, mostly for public consumption. So don't tell me NKR is not being discussed because it is not mentioned in the protocols!
Instead of building our story around assumptions, a better proxy (and I hope Hagop N doesn't mind me using an economics term here!) would be to look at the motives and capacity of the negotiating sides. And when I do that in this particular case, I get very worried. Is this too simplified for some?
Let's also look at the outcomes for a moment, shall we? Economically this promises to be a disaster (I do know a thing or two about this and can elaborate). In terms of Armenia-Diaspora relations it is already a disaster (you don't need to be an expert to see this). And in terms of geoloticial gains....I am sorry, did I say gains? ...I take it back....in terms of geopolitics, not being an expert here too I am getting worried when I listen to experts. So how is this even the third best option for us? And why no one on this list wants to talk about the reforms that should have come from within the country---true economic reforms and advancements in human rights and related issues? Why is the "Russian roulette" (i.e., I-will-mortgage-my-house-and-play-blackjack-but-what-if-I-get-lucky mentality) is the only game in this town?
David Grigorian
www.pf-armenia.org
To Hayk Serobyan
With all due respect, Sir, but which world do you live in? Could you explain what "the rules and regulations of modern diplomacy" is? Is there a book I can read and educate myself on this? Does SS follow those "rules and regulations"? How about the Turks? It would be good to know if they signed a disclosure statement about following these ruels and regulations before the meeting with SS, right? Are those rules necessary or sufficient conditions for things to go right? I am really curious.
David Grigorian
www.pf-armenia.org
If all true Armenians in Armenia and worldwide try hard and stop this traitor, turks and other traitors would understand that it would be impossible making Armenians sell their cause. Otherwise, we will lose Artsakh in near future and our entire land in long term.
Harout Sassounian's reporting and assessments are good. There is one issue that I am not hearing, nor reading in discussions of this topic.
That is, the Turkish government closed the borders. Now, it offers to open it and place conditions, symbolically bringing Armenia on its knees. Sassounian writes,
"What was the point of these negotiations and concessions if Armenia’s border with Turkey will remain closed?
"Even if the protocols are signed and ratified, and the border is opened, Armenia could still end up holding an empty bag should Turkey, under some future pretext, close it down again. I asked Sarkisian if he would be prepared to add a reservation to the protocols, stating that Armenia would nullify the agreement should Turkey close the border again."
With my respects to Harout Sassounian, I believe that this statement does not make sense and does not place Armenia in a good bargainig position. I do not understand the logic. It assumes that Armenia is begging for the border to open. Is that so?
Can someone help me reconcile David Davidian's article which he published on June 29, 2009 with what he is stating in this article ?
It seems that accepting the protocols effectively shuts the door on any "reasonable claim" for Armenia its historic land.
Excuse me while I wipe my tears. Poor Taner was not able to get away with publically calling a very senior nationalist politician liar. What a tragedy. Lost in his long tirade is the fact that Blue Book was a work of propaganda, published in the middle of a war UK was waging against the sick man of Europe, in 1916. Its author has prettty mush admitted to this. Of course, Taner in this long article makes not a single mention of this relevant fact.
I've given up on the ADL Mr. Agjaian. Its bad enough we have to deal with sell-outs in the high ranks of the Armenian government. Alligning with the AAA is unforgiving and unacceptable. If ADL can't pull their act together unanimously they will remain a free-frolicking fringe organization like the AAA that is destined for a special place in history's waste bin of irrelevance.
I wouldn't waste precious time ruminating over the ADL's incompetence. By the time they get their heads out of their you know what, we will all be speaking turkish...
David,
"Instead of building our story around assumptions, a better proxy (and I hope Hagop N doesn’t mind me using an economics term here!) would be to look at the motives and capacity of the negotiating sides."
Wise words indeed!
Rootarmo, my sentiments exactly.
These protocols are very dangerous, not only for the future of Armenia, but also for the present. With no insult to Pres. Serzh Sarkisian, these protocols are behind his comprehension. I see huge dangers for the nation and the continuation of Armenia's existence. These protocols should have been studied by historians, political scientists, legal scholars, and other experts hired by Armenia. Armenia does not have the resources or the experience of handling such sophisticated protocols prepared by many political forces. These protocols are not just between Armenia and Turkey. I won't be suprised if Turkey offers opening universities in Armenia to educate Armenians along with huge numbers of Turkish students. And they will offer many more. Turkey will have many ways of ending the existance of Armenia not far from the future.
THIS IS ANOTHER GENOCIDE AGAINST TRUE ARMENIANS AROUND THE WORLD, SPECIALLY DIASPORA THERE,
THIS IS ALERT! THIS IS WARNING! " THERE IS NO ARMENIANS IN ARMENIA "
THIS PEOPLE WILL SELL THIER DIGNITY AND FAMILY FOR DOLLAR,
DO NOT LET THIS SHAMEFUL ACT OF SELLING ARMENIA BY BUNCH OF IDIOTES HAPPEN YOU WILL REGRET LATER WHEN IS VERY LATE,
POPULATION IN ARMENIA IS CONSIDER ONLY IN YEREVAN,
I AM IN YEREVAN AT THE MOMENT AND ONLY VERY SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE CARE WHAT IS HAPPENING AND THE ONE WHICH ARE ACTIVE THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEADGE WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM AND POLOTICAL PARTIES ALL SILENTED AND HARDLY ANY ONE WANTS TO JOIN DASHNAKTSOUTION AND THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP WHICH HAVE ORGNIZED DEMONSTRATIONS,
I WILL REPORT MORE LATER,
BUT PLEASE LET ALL YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS TO ORGNIZE DEMONSTRATIONS IN FRONT OF ALL USA, GB, FRANCE, ITALY, GERMANY, SWISS, UN, RUSSIAN EMBASSIES AND CONSULATES,
BY THIS THE ARMENIANS WILL LOSS THIER LEGAL RIGHTS ON OCCUPIED TERITORIES BY TURKY BASE ON SERVES TREATY AND WILLSONIAN ARMENIA BORDERS,
DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU ARMENIANS IN DIASPORA
KHACHKAVOR GEVORG,
Yerevan - Armenia
Oct. 09, 2009 - 8:00 PM,
" THE ONLY TIME YOU and I AGREE TO OPEN THE BORDERS IS WHEN TURKY RECOGNIZEZ ARMENIA WITH PRESIDENT WILLSON'S DRAWN BORDERS AND ACCEPTING 1915 GENOCIDE OF ARMENIANS "
GDG
It looks like the only difference from the Armenian Assembly of America (AAA) and the Assembly of Turkish American Associations (ATAA) is the letter T! The AAA and their leaderships including Hirair Hovnanian, Van Krikorian, and Anthony Barsamian should be absolutely asshamed of themselves.
Rootarmo asked:
"Can someone help me reconcile David Davidian’s article which he published on June 29, 2009 with what he is stating in this article ?
It seems that accepting the protocols effectively shuts the door on any “reasonable claim” for Armenia its historic land."
I respectfully request you re-read the June 29, 2009 piece, keeping in mind:
Pre-Protocol: Armenia never made official land claims against Turkey
Pre-Protocol: No Armenian political party had brought land claims to the forefront, in recent times.
Pre-Protocol: The June 29, 2009 piece is published in the Armenian Weekly
Post-Protocol: Armenia will continue not making official land claims against Turkey
Post-Protocol: Armenian political parties claim all is lost
Post-Protocol: The June 29, 2009 piece can be re-published in the Armenia Weekly, intact.
Armenian demands remain. Turkish consternation remains. Generations may pass before conditions exist when these land claims might enter into the diplomatic lexicon -- whether this Protocol exists or not.
Regarding times and conditions, only two generations ago:
“Just after the war in Europe ended, Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov sent a message to the Turkish ambassador, announcing that the Soviet-Turkish agreement of December 17, 1925, “no longer accords with the new situation and calls for serious improvements.” The Soviet Union was interested in certain adjustments of its border in Turkey in the regions adjacent to Transcaucasia, revisions in the Montreaux Convention governing the Straits, and loosening Turkey’s ties with Great Britain. At first the claims to Kars, Ardahan, and Artvin were made in the name of the Armenian republic, but later Georgian irredentist claims were also made. The issue was raised in Potsdam in 1945 and again in Stalin’s meeting with Western foreign ministers in December. ...” See: http://books.google.com/books?id=riW0kKzat2sC&pg=PA284&lpg=PA284&dq=soviet+claims+on+kars+ardahan&source=bl&ots=3Blmm0sELk&sig=BPeQiBh4GdNMHNxLtDfeSkuv0EU&hl=en&ei=SDjPSva6ONKGlAfe3d2PAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=soviet claims on kars ardahan&f=false
So much for the Treaties of Kars, Moscow or whatever.
Conditions simply may have changed. Without wider understanding, many are prone to an irrational fear of change. As I wrote on June 29, 2009, “There will be no benefit from change without participation in its process.”
Those wishing to continue any serious commentary with me, please contact the editor of the Armenian Weekly for my personal email address.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
How about the defense that the ARF, the main protestors agains the protocols, knew or should have known all along what Serzhik was planning. After all, weren't you part of his coalition government? Why did you not know what was going on and stop it before it go to this stage? Or better yet, why did you, Hamparian, and your ANC-folk not raise your voice (not even a whisper) when Serzh was killing Armenians in Yerevan on 1 March. Now you cry over spilt milk. You are to blame. So lets hear your defense for having defended Mr Serzh - or the Traitor as some of your more enthusiastic AYFers were calling him on the streets of Los Angeles.
Hye, and add to the dust bin the new book Children of Armenia by Bobelian. He could have created a listing of all the events - to date... and called it a book. Even more, mentioned our dedicated Hai Tad members, volunteers, to day who are dedicated to a free Armenian nation - free of the claws of the Ottoman mentality which the Turkis leaders still abide by today. Startin gwith the title, the book missed it, sadly
Bakalian's books - thanks to his dedication, his efforts, still stand away and above... truths, for us all. Manooshag
Your so-called “Armenia” was a multiethnic state. Untill 1988, when 250,000 Azeris were ethnically cleansed. This was the real Genocide. One day Zangezur and Irevan Khanates will return to their rightfull owners.
Hye, so upset by the events that I mispelled, omitted period, letters etc. Manooshag
Manooshag..
I understand exactly what you are saying.. I am sooo upset and fed up with this filth that my thoughts in my head run 1,000,000 miles per hour and whenI try to express them, it comes out in a big mixed up manner.
However, every dedicated Armenian would understand our position.. so no worries.. as long as we know where we stand on the line of justice, we are good to go with or without misspelled words..
G
Dr. Astarjian, welcome back, I have missed your articles and comments. You spoke against Armenia's first president, rightfully so, and now again, against the current president and again, rightfully so.
Mr. Vartabedian is to be applauded for his exuberance and optimism. Human interest stories certainly have their place, but, as he implies, they can’t tell the whole story. Maybe articles about kebab and kef are all we will get in the American press. At least that is what my experience has shown me. As a publishing professional working with major newspapers for more than 2 decades, I’d like to share that I’ve proposed many stories to writers over the years and even “called in favors” with colleagues for whom I’d given media coverage in the past. The story concepts ran the gamut from tourism articles (when Armenia celebrated its 1700th anniversary as a Christian nation and welcomed pilgrims) all the way to hard news stories (when the Douglas Frantz/Mark Arax/LA Times scandal hit, when the ADL denied the Armenian Genocide, when the Turkish-Armenian “Roadmap” was unfurled). How did my media colleagues respond? Emails and phone calls were not returned. The silence was deafening. I should add that 98% of these colleagues were of Jewish descent. Mr. Vartabedian, not all Armenians are novices when it comes to PR. But in order to do our jobs, we need a level playing field upon which to operate!
Aram Hamparian, excellent critical analysis of the logical fallacies pervading Sarkisian's and his supporters' approach to "public" discussion of the protocols. Another is the claim that those who are against the protocols are illogical extremists (the recent Economist article calls us "fuming" "nationalists") who operate without valid argumentation. This would seem to be a "fallacy of projection," actually, given what you have written.
What is particularly disturbing about the rhetorical techniques you analyze is how many of them overlap with the techniques used by genocide deniers (deniers of the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, Native American genocides, the Nanjing Massacre, the East Timor Genocide, the Guatemala Genocide, etc., etc.).
Abisoghom raises a legitimate issue about those of us who did not do anything or did not do enough about Sarkisian's human rights abuses a year and a half ago. His implication is off, though. He is suggesting that the ARF and others should not say anything now that Sarkisian is compounding the problem because we failed to do anything or enough before. I would counter that the ARF and others have a great obligation now to oppose Sarkisian's broadening harm to Armenians in order to to try to make up for the initial failures to do so. In an article I wrote recently, I argue for a legal investigation into Sarkisian's crackdown against those opposing him, his jailing of opposition figures, etc. Regardless of how the protocol issue ends up, Sarkisian needs to be accountable for his actions and prevented from abuse of citizens' rights that we have every reason to expect will happen again in the future.
I do have to say, however, in the ARF's defense, that ARF people might have been in the government, but I am not sure they were in Sarkisian's inner circle or privy to any of this stuff. In fact, I suspect that he did not disclose information about the protocols being developed to the ARF precisely because he expected this would be a breaking point in the relationship. The fact that he kept the contents of the protocols secret for so long is telling.
President, How Can You Sell Our Precious Blood?
Can you sell your ancestors blood?
Tell me how you can sell.
How can you collect and sell.
From which sand you can collect.
Think and tell.
Open names of endless dictionaries.
In Who is Who Books
From past century—
Who left their souls in their land.
Without beloveds, how can they breathe?
Without cloths and motherly hands.
Remember their agonized faces
Emaciated, anemic,
Huge skins piercing the bones
Dehydrated, asking to seed.
Their tears bleeding, yet not dried
Dripping at night on pillows wet
Dreaming horrible seen of genocide
How can you collect and sell their lost blood?
Who authorized you to do such bet?
If you do so
Our cohorts will never forget.
Put you self in grave
And remember your genes of populate
Who are still waiting to be graved
In Derzor sands watching the skies
Our laments wouldn’t see end.
Each soul had an Art
Could not be found
Each kind gene went
Cannot be replaced.
Drawback you words before regret.
Sylva Portoian
October 9, 2009
Written instantly
Please correct if you see mistakes,with thanks
Abres, abisoghom. Those who did not complain when Robik and Serzhik stole and election have forfeited their right to complain about the protocols. And, let's give up this crap about the Diaspora being 'Armenia's greatest natural resource.' Mr. Hamparian has merely countered what he sees as rhetoric (and I'd like to seem him actually ground some of his claims) with typical ARF, Diaspora self-serving rhetoric. Drop the the pan-national garbage and take IR 101.
Let's look into capacity whatever is meant by that term here. Motives are irrelevant, what matters is the outcome. Gains are not geopolitical here for us, they are political and diplomatic. The argument about evil Turkish motives is advanced by those who believe that you do not negotiate with the enemy. You do, if the option on the table is better than the alternatives (walkaway options). The set up is not between Turkey and Armenia, the other parties are US, Russia and EU.
Hagop, I cannot put your mind at ease in this forum and format. Ultimately, you may need a psychiatrist, not a rational discourse. Just in case here are a couple of gains from these protocols if both parties ratify. The scenario is even more advantageous, if Turkey does not ratify.
1. Armenia enters a direct process mediated by Switzerland, a country that has formally recognized the genocide. The protocols do not preclude continuation of the recognition process. The end goal of this process is recognition by Turkey. It is not going to be easy but probability is higher than otherwise. Those aspiring justice rendered by "the international community" sooner or later would face the same dilemma.
2. Turkey opens the border and both countries establish diplomatic relations. This beats the Turkish pre-condition that these actions can only be taken depending on the outcome of the Karabakh settlement. These processes have been effectively decoupled. The opening of the border does not immediately imply economic gains or losses. Policy options will need to be carefully weighed in to protect certain sectors of the Armenian economy. Having another border opened in addition to volatile Georgian and Iranian borders is obviously a gain. However, it will yet need to materialize in a series of additional agreements.
3. Ratification with appropriate reservations on modalities of the historical sub-commission and conditions for exiting the protocols will contain Turkey's military options and firmly channel the process within Turkey's EU aspirations. The so called new Ottomanism is an alternative to EU. Ultimately, the scenario where Turkey may reject the EU accession path cannot be ruled out. However, as long as Turkey is on that path there are numerous additional opportunities on that road.
There are other gains that can be discussed privately.
mr. theriault,
i didn't see abisoghom imply anywhere that you don't have the right to speak out against him just because you didn't defend the people of armenia on march 1. what i understood from his analogy was that the arf is refusing to apply the same policy (i.e. yeah ok, what they did was bad but we have to look forward and so we're ready to work with the newly elected president [u know, the one that people who died on march 1 said WASN'T the presiden] to make things better).
why can't we apply that same logic to the protocols: yeah it's bad, but we have to look forward and so we're ready to work within the framework of the protocols [u know, the ones that are going to betray the armenian nation] and make sure armenia prospers, despite the genocide commission and despite recognizing the border (and possibly giving up kharabagh).
i think it's fair, at the very least, to say that oppossition to the protocols is higher up on the priority list of the anca, hamparian, and the arf then is oppossition to the massacre of the armenian population. no? why else would they go ape-shit over this and not march 1? but in fact, there has never been ANY OPPOSSITION to the massacre of the armenian population from these people beyond the serzh-sanctioned position that they shouldn't have been out there in the first place (remember those "outside forces?") and thus, they deserved it.
---7) “Let’s set these Protocol detractors straight, once and for all.”
The “argumentum ad odium” is used by some supporters of the Protocols who clearly have an axe to grind against some of the document’s detractors, for sins real or imagined. They seek to strengthen their stand by appealing to existing prejudices, and, at times, seem to use the excuse of this controversy to settle old scores.---
i'm not a supporter of the protocols, but if i'm not mistaken, the arf used march 1 as an 'axe to grind against some of [levon's supporters], for sins real or imagined. They [sought] to strengthen their stand by appealing to existing prejudices, and, at times, seem[ed] to [have] use[d] the excuse of this controversy to settle old scores. [and i know you all know what i mean by old score].
and the funny part is,most of the above points he made are in some way addressing the agbu, the armenian assembly, and the diocese -- the triumphant trio of organizations that they signed what i call the letter of shame.
you were ready to work with him when he slaughtered our people, and you should be ready to work with him now.
Arhur Martirosyan,
The motives of all involved parties is the center of discussion since, again, it was an argument above made on context.
Ignoring the pathological level of arrogance is the best course, of course. Yet, it deserve to be said that the very mention of psychiatry is a reflection of 1) one's belief in the fraudulent school of psychiatry, which 2) is an indication of having consulted for help from such services in the past.
In any case, all these speculations aside, the argument made above is far ffrom convincing. Armenians do have the power to reject, delay, obstruct, whatever needs to be done to stop any negotations. Armenians do have the option, at any given time, to demand certain condition are met prior to any negotations.
The lack of desire to even mention such items and the zeal with which the "diaspora" in its entirety is now being discredit by the Yerevan authorities is indicative of something else, perhaps in fact treasonous compromises due to personal gains. This is obvioys to most, although I refrain from offering this opinion as final until all discussion has come about to at least some sort of consensus.
Nevertheless, such arrogance is a major impediment to your attempts at getting to people, if your intention is truly to push forth a balanced perspective. Despite all displayed imabalances and impatience towards those who do not agree with you, I am still willing to give the benefit of the doubt due to some perceived special knowledge.
I am still waiting for y0u to provide concrete analysis of the Protocols to justify your viewpoint. You have thus far failed to do so.
The relative and vague term "change" is abused to such levels, that many people justifiably associate the word with criminal intent in politics. "Change" can mean destruction, and therefore the "participation in it" makes one wonder about the definition of "participation" in this case. Does it mean "acceptance of total capitulation because that's how the wind blows?" Or is this some taoist medtative session where "going with the flow makes the chi balanced again?"
I apologize for the sarcasm, but all these personae with the veneer of "expertise" have yet to address genuine concerns the vast majority of people have. The attitude of dismissal, the obfuscation attempts, the ommission of critical factors from the argument, these are all indcative of either one of two dispositions: outright treason or, as one writer recently put it, "the doltishness of the literate lacking intuition."
I would rather attribute more of the latter than the former disposition. The benefit of the doubt is of much importance if, sooner or later, there is some consensus resulting from honest and respectful internecine dialog. This is simply not the case. A chasm is forming, and not a single "expert" is addressing this in earnest on this forum.
Henry Dumanian, I appreciate your response. To clarify, I did not say that Abisoghom explicitly argued that ARF people have no right to speak against the protocols because of past support for Sarkisian. I said that his post "suggests" this. I think a fairly straight-forward reading of his post supports this interpretation: he is suggesting that the ARF is an illegitimate critic now because it did not oppose Sarkisian before. My point is that that past history imposes an obligation to try to fix the problems that have resulted.
As a question, I was wondering where I could go for more information about the massacre you discuss. I was aware of arrests and beatings of opposition activists, but did not know that there was widespread killing.
I won't take up your other points here, except your assumption that the protocols will ensure that Armenia will prosper -- even without Karabakh. I don't see much evidence of that. Even the ex-Agriculture Minister of Armenia, in Stepanakert in July, raised real doubts as to what is going to happen economically in border regions of Armenia and in Armenia more generally as a result of an open border. No one knows. Perhaps the most useful data might come from looking at the effects of NAFTA on Mexico, though of course the comparison is obviously a loose fit. As for the loss of Karabakh, Professor Levon Chorbajian has recently presented and published a discussion of this possibility and what it will mean. On his view, loss of Karabakh could so weaken Armenia in terms of defense and economics that it might not be a viable state in the long-term future. Beyond that, it is hard for me to accept that a country in which an anti-Armenian ultra-nationalism is so deeply entrenched that it led to assassination of a peace-activist, pro-dialogue Armenian and that it cannot even admit that its predecessor state (not even predecessor government) committed a genocide for which there is overwhelming evidence and scholarly recognition will be a good partner for "peace and prosperity." I realize the situation is desperate, but a bad option is a bad option, no matter how much wishful thinking we direct toward it.
Boyajian needs to take a few courses in political science, history and geopolitics before he continues writing political essays. Perhaps he can also begin to pay closer attention to developments in Eurasia and work on stopping his fears and emotions from dictating his thoughts. When the big guys begin to get involved in a dispute the smart little guys stays silent, listens and tries to work out something positive for himself. This is what official Yerevan is doing today. Anyone here that thinks Armenians can "strong arm" or "explain" things to the Kremlin is delusional. Trust me, Kremlin officials know what is going on in the Caucasus better than all of us Armenians combined. Sleep well knowing that for the foreseeable future their national interests will correspond with ours. And I have more trust in them to keep the Caucasus free of a Turkish infestation than on us Armenians. Boyajian, when you pray at nights (if you pray) make sure to say a prayer for Mother Russia because the only reason why we have an Armenian republic in the Caucasus today is because two hundred years ago drunk "Ivan" decided to go to the Caucasus. Without a Russian presence in the Caucasus all of us would still be living like Kurds.
"I am afraid you are 100% correct… The more I hear and see how these protocols are handled and how our own government acts, I believe everything and most likely everyone is controlled by some sort of power…" Gayane and Harry wrote.
Yeah, that power that keeps scholars from speaking out and young Armenians and actually people of any descent from rising up and becoming scholars in America is this (current) American life. It's the way this system bogs people down, enslaves them and makes sure that they do nothing but work to pay bills and debts off. We, personally I, have stopped "living" and have turned into some machine that must only struggle to secure some future for myself and family. The current system seems to have a mandate of keeping its citizens so busy that they will not have time to think or congregate. And they lead us to believe that this is all an accident.
I suppose that readers of this comment who already don't feel the way I do - my rant may appear to be just that - a rant but I truly believe that this singular focus on money and wealth which has consumed the world is going to ruin every positive thing in our lives. And, I definitely believe that this is something that a certain class of disrespectful, greedy people is forcing upon all of us.
I wish us all Good luck.
And again sorry for diverging off topic but I think that the root cause of the problems mentioned here is what I am talking about.
Caren...
You are definitely right on the dot... MONEY, POWER, WEALTH.. these are all that we strive for in this country.. I can't stress enough how this propaganda machine pushes its citizens to work like slaves and think only about paying bills and debts... You are correct in saying that it can ruin what is good and positive in our lives.. However, that money and wealth if used in the right way can make things right and just.. Unfortunately, those who come upon this money, power and wealth by corruption and lies.. the foundation is never going to be honest, righteous and justifiable.. THe end outcome will be disaster.. the same disasterous situation we, our nation, our land, and our lives in.
You are absolutely correct Caren..
To Matt
Stop Smoking the weed dude! Yes modern Turkey didn't kill the Armenians yet today's Turkey denies the mass murder of 1.5 million Armenians and many still wish the job was complete. The Turks go out of their way to continue the legacy of the genocide. Also try reading a real ottoman history book and understand that where the Turks went they killed, stole and raped their subjects. Ask everyone that was enslaved under their rule. In fact all the others including the Arabs and Europeans struggled against the Turks to eventually free themselves, unfortunately the Armenian heartland was in Anatolia itself and so the Armenians, Pontiff Greeks and Assyrians, still under Turkish rule were liquidated not only to Turkify the area but to get the wealth and the lands as well. As far as I'm concerned modern day Turkey, the sons and daughters of genocide perpetrators, owe me an apology and money.
I think it is very important not to put the two protocols in the same basket. The first one may possibly be a base for useful discussions, as long as the Artsakh question is not sold down the river (at least by the Armenians). The border closure is a pain for the Republic of Armenia in economic terms, and they (rather than us in the diaspora) have to live with the neighbours it has, so a sort of motus vivendi has to be reached.
Where we have to be totally inflexible is in the matter of the second protocol, because the near-totality of the Diaspora is made up of heirs of the Genocide, and by even sitting down at a table for a tripartite "examination" of the fact sows the basis of doubt on its veracity. This has already been a
problem through the shameful behaviour of the likes of the BBC and The Economist (and what to say about the negationist collaboration of Israel!), and we cannot accept it in any shape or form.
I appreciate the solidarity and just wish we had a solution. Actually, technology in the form of free or really cheap energy can help unshackle us somewhat. The prices of all goods are tied to energy since production, mining and even transportation are all "energy". So if that is free prices would be tied to labor and IP and that would resemble a barter system much more which is a good thing I think. (Back to basics.) no more worries about oil or gas or air conditioning/heating, a very different life basically.
Firstly, and let's be honest and clear about it, one can not talk about a peaceful co-existence without the fundemental principles of recognition and respect for international borders of your neighbors. Armenia's actions and statements are proof why this principle is a fundemental one. The alternative is a state of war. Armenia needs to make a choice.
"The right to self-determination is a strong black letter law principle in international law...The two—self-determination and territorial integrity—have absolutely equal weight in the law."
Hardly. It is a dubious and inapplicable concept and hardly a well-defined law and hardly recognized or formalized as in a state's borders, flag etc.. Pretending that Wilsonian pronciples are well and alive? No lessons learned from WWI? Where do you draw the line, and who defines the line? Why not apply it to other ethnic groups in Armenia and any other place, Russia, Bulgaria, Crimea, Chechneya, Israel, Kashmir, Cyprus, etc..
"The first granted to Turkey three-fifths of the territory of the first Republic of Armenia, while Kars ratified that allocation and set the borders between Armenia and Georgia, and Armenia and Azerbaijan, in addition to Armenia and Turkey. There are several factors that call the legitimacy of these treaties into question"
Questioning the national borders defined and recognized by well established protocols is not the way to have good or any relations with your neighbors. Maybe we can agree on this. All treaties are signed under duress, all parties apply all the leverages they have and come to an understanding. If the terms are not really acceptable, and one party thinks they can do better, then you go back to the battlefield as Turks did after Sevres. Those lands never belonged to a Republic of Armenia, they never were a majority in the whole region (Eastern Anatolia) or part of it, which could not even sustain its own existence more than a few years. The alternative to recognition and respect of national boundries is war.
It is childish and dangerous to still maintain a dream of Greater Armenia at the expense of all others, while blaming Turks for not accomodating it.
One simply can not have it both ways. Even children know this, what is Mr. Corbaciyan's excuse?
I am pleased the protocols have been signed. Of course, as the grandchild of Genocide survivors I want to see the genocide acknowledged but the welfare of the people of Armenia is paramount. Breaking the stranglehold around Armenia is an important contributor to the long-term viability of that country. I'm pleased our country (USA) played a major role in brokering these protocols that pave the way to an open border.
What do you want from Mustafa Ataturk Sarkysian? He is either stupid, on the take or a CIA plant. Ask your selves why would the United states build a 100 Million dollar sprawling embassy in a small land locked country like Armenia? Sarkysian has to go!
Well, it is signed. The Armenian government ventured in this adventure without the full consent of its people. This government will be held responsible . I am sure the people will speak.
Murat, you are very much mistaken. To name a few Van, Erzerum, Sivas, Mush, Bitlis, Diyarbakir and Istanbul had large populations of Armenians. Check out some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_population
You cannot say Armenians did not live in those areas. What was the population density percentages compared to Kurds, Greeks, Jews or Turks? And don't try to bundle Kurds with Turks to increase the numbers as Muslims. And by the way, a contract agreed to under duress is not legitimate. If someone holds a gun to your head, regardless of your true intentions, you'll sign anyway.
And by the way, It's Dr. Chorbajian. He's a Professor at UML. Check it out,
http://www.uml.edu/College/arts_sciences/Sociology/Faculty/Levon_Chorbajian.html
What are your credentials?
Perhaps, just perhaps, Nalbandian's last minute concern over the Turkish statement was his conscience reminding him of those that can not speak today and those whose voices they have chosen to ignore. Round 1 is over. The protocols were signed. The "powers" peering over the shoulders of Nalbandian while he was signing was very symbolic. No pressure....ugh.
There is still ratificationand implementation togo. I fully expect the Turkish circus to be in full
throttle as we enter the 2nd and 3rd phases. Let's see ..... will it be playing with the "historical commission" design or will it be demanding concessions on Karabagh or will it be economic
structures that disadvantage the Armenians. Let's be ready and maintain a public relations advantage. After all this whole process is a show for the "powers"and the EU.
One thing is clear. The opposition process in the democratic evolution of Armenia is galvanizing. We must not let the Turks portray this as a disapora issues. We must be one with Armenia. Debate with the government. Always loyal to our nation.
Antranig, I am not mistaken at all. I have a habit of making sure I have the facts straight before making statements in public. You should do the same.
Firstly, I never contradicted the fact that there were significant Armenian populations in the whole of Anatolia, and especially in the Eeast. Armenians are an essential part of Turkey's history and culture. The comment was about having a majority in any particular vilyet or region. Majority concept was important since it was tied (by Armenians mostly) to the right of self-determination and Wilson principles etc. . The most concentrated Armenian population was in Van, and claims have been made by some that Armenians were a mjority there. They were not. Not even in the city itself. Not even close.
"Population estimates for the Van city itself are more difficult. There were extensive population movements in and around the city as the economic and political situation deteriorated rapidly before at the dawn of the World War I. Ottoman population count at the time recorded 79,000 Muslims and 34,000 Armenians in the Van district, which included the immediate surrounding areas too. The city of Van's Armenian population was about 30,000 people in the fall of 1914." (from Wikipedia)
I can provide more detailed breakdown for all minorities and references, but this is not the place.
If we take your definition of legitimacy, then humankind would have to fight all the wars in history over and over and again. If the gun was put to the head of the Turks at the time (it was actually) I wonder if you would have had the same opinions about this issue of legitimacy. Let us at least pretend to be fair.
You could call me Dr. too if that makes feel better about my credentials.
The discussion is over, as far as I am concerned, Hagop. This is not a forum for consensus building nor is it a place for any serious debating. Motives are best discussed with psychiatrists. In international politics what matters is INTERESTS and outcomes, not on paper but in reality. That's the only thing that merits discussion and it requires basic education and skills that you unfortunately lack. You have been trying to compensate this deficit with aggressive ad hominem.
You were asking about gains - I mentioned several tangible gains. Your fears and concerns by and large are derivatives of a myth - someone ( a new Wilson) or "the international community" are going to give our lands to us as soon as "the international community" recognizes the genocide and protocols are an obstacle on that path. Guess what - these protocols were concocted by that very "international community". And yet they do not preclude continuation of the campaign for expanding recognitions. It is just a set up of the beginning of the game. However, recognitions won't give us NOW what you are hoping to get. At this point in history, at this juncture it is safe to predict that recognitions will be in tune with TARC's - it was genocide, but no territorial claims. We can cry out that this is not fair, that the entire world is against us, that there are traitors and agents among us OR we can take what is possible today and build up for tomorrow so that when the moment is right we do not miss the opportunity. I choose the latter because I care about Armenia and Artsakh. All I need for that choice is to compare what we gain in protocols and what our alternatives were if Sargsyan said no. You care about your wounded ego therefore nothing in the world can convince you and your likes. The real and only Turkish gain so far is the split of the Armenian world. They have been working on that agenda quite purposively. But then it was not a difficult task after all nor a new one for them - all it takes is playing out the right mimics and Boajyans, Kassabians and Co will produce the right reactions.
Hagop you wrote --
Armenians do have the power to reject, delay, obstruct, whatever needs to be done to stop any negotations. Armenians do have the option, at any given time, to demand certain condition are met prior to any negotations.
The question is not whether "Armenians have the power" although this statement is in a stark contradiction with your earlier assertions about Armenia (economy, state machinery, diplomacy, intelligence et al.) The question is: Are we gaining things to protect and advance our interests in these protocols or the potential threats necessitate a no? I see more gains and ways to neutralize some of the real threats. This is just one example of different languages we are speaking in this discourse. If there were genuine interest in consensus building, we'd see a different process in Armenia and diaspora. Some people thought that they can put up protests, rallies, shouting "Voch" and that will be enough to prevent the signing of protocols. It only indicates that these people failed to spot the game, analyze interests of major powers and understand why they were pushing for this deal.
This entire process between the Armenian government and the diaspora has been both frustrating and embarassing. Frustrating in that it is obvious that President Sarkissian is not accustomed to being held accountable by his people and that he is very uncomfortable with this approach. The gap in political behavior and tactics between the Armenian government and the diaspora is significant. This problem has to be solved if weare going to make any real headway in recovering from the damage that has been done to the diasporan relationship. Embarassing in that, at a time when our sacred issues( recognition and territorial recognition) are on the world table, we are forced into public discord with the Armenian government. Forced because we were left few real options to impact the outcome.
As Armenians, we can distinguish between our disagreement with the government and our support for the nation.To the world, they aren't able to separate it.The concept of a nation with an active diaspora is not generally understood. This allows the Turks to attempt to exploit the current
environment by claiming this is a "diaspora issue" . They will fail in the end as willl their campaign of denial. The real failing of the government is that they have not internalized what makes up the Armenian nation and to serve it. We have an opportunityto use this conflict and make it a better day for the Armenian people. We must finds wayto bridge the gaps.
I had the opportunity to listento Mr.Bobelian at the NAASR sponsored event this past Thursday.
The topic is fascinating and his approach is quite interesting. His comments were articulate and really engaged his audience(a packed room).I would also like to that the book is a "good read" and
reviews a very important subject in the post-Genocide Armenian-American experience.
The Armenians in Armenia & the diaspora must rise up against Pres. Serz Sarkisian & its supporters on these illegal protocols. He must be forced to resign or removed by the people. If these protocols surrenders our territorial rights in Turkey then this will be the end of the Armenian Nation. In the future Armenians will not be supporting the homeland for fear of a takeover by Turkey. Imagine losing 15,000 people in the war with the Azeri's and now to give up those territories. Shame on this illegal Armenian President.
That's it. Good bye dear Armenia.
Anyone who knows Turks can imagine the next 10 years. Turks will flood Armenia and take over everything. Because they are Turks and because history - yes, history! - has demonstrated over and over again, that nothing but guns - if at all - could stop Turks from spreading to every possible human habitat in the world.
I see a lot of criticism towards diaspora Armenians. But actually, same on you Yerevantsis! Why didn't you folks go out in masses of hundreds of thousands and protested? Yap, always blame the diaspora, but in this case, the blame is to be borne by the Armenian Armenians. It is unbelievable how you don't seem to care about anything else than money. Even the Dashnaktsutyun is a joke in Armenia.
Just to tell you: if the contrary happened in Turkey, the Turks would shoot Erdogan immediately.
Good bye, dear Armenia. All is lost now.
I think it is best that these two countries get along.
A loose thought: perhpas the protocols are intended to undermine and divide the Armenians, thus weakening them...
it is hard for me to accept that a country in which an anti-Armenian ultra-nationalism is so deeply entrenched...will be a good partner for “peace and prosperity.” FULLY AGREE !
If Karabagh is awarded Azerbaijan, it will embolden their continued fight against the Armenians with further destruction. I believe the Azerbaijanis have greater hate towards Armenians than does Turkey.
Well, parties have agreed to "a great chess game." Now it is time for Armenians both in Diaspora, Republic of Armenian, and Artsakh to actually show some skills. First, we need to rip ourselves of inferiority mentality and fear that Turkey always wins by deceit and trickery. Second, we need to believe in ourselves, and our ability to actually win. Third which we need to unite and not to undermine each other.
Well, one things for sure, oppose as much as we did, what the administration in Yerevan implicitly made it clear to the Diaspora, was that if you (the Diaspora) want to be part of the decision making of the Armenian Republic's politics and public administration you, better get yourself, come settle and get established over here in Armenia and be part of the decision making. That's what it is saying! loud and clear.
That's the uncomfortable truth people
Y.
"always loyal to our nation"
im jumping ship, love
my family has suffered enough for a motherland that just got auctioned off
my only concern?
how to pronounce "jehenem" next time someone inquires about my origin
god bless whats left of armenia and its children
incidentally,
does anyone know how much armenia sold for?
and who was the highest bidder?
the united states?
turkey?
perhaps israel?
To Artur Mardirosian
I apologise for mispresenting your contribution to this discussion(?) by referring to gigabytes. In fact, you have typed in 26,275 characters, amounting to only about 210.2 kbytes. I am still desperately trying to see here a link between quantity and quality: you have not moved any further than where you started.
Artur, I realise that (in your case) words are what you work with every day and assert your professional standing. However, please understand that conflict negotiations per se do not solve anything. No unjust "solution" holds, no matter how it is presented at the time or how much spin you put to achieve one-sided benefit. It doesn't even matter if you get a Nobel Prize for it (and I do not refer here only to the latest one).
I was thinking what reading to recommend to you. Best would probably be Robert Fisk, warts and all, because he knows well enough the Armenian case, at the same time building his thesis on the Middle East as a whole. I sincerely hope I am not suggesting anything beyond your reach.
Greg
Don't be so pessimistic Ardashir. For a small country we are tough and our brethren are spread all around the world watching very carefully.
Having the borders open doesn't portend to absolute demise. Many countries that are not on good terms still maintain "open" borders. I think that these borders will mainly be used by our side and not so much their side and we have a lot more to gain from this than they do.
And let's not forget that just as these borders were opened they can be shut again. And it isn't exactly the open borders that critics have a problem with, it is the weak negotiations and other points of the deal.
Godspeed.
Greg,
Thank you for counting my words in this discussion. That is by far your most important contribution. However, before you make any recommendations to someone, check your arrogant and pompous assumptions. What if your opponent has read the book? What is journalist Fisk's "thesis", anyway, that is if you know what the word means? As to your fundamental axiomatic finding "that conflict negotiations per se do not solve anything", I can only conclude that you should have your mind at ease unlike Hagop and consider that nothing was solved yesterday in Zurich.
Most, if not all proponents of the hysterical "Voch" such as Aivazian and Papian are in fact followers of conflict resolution but of an extremely illusionary form. It boils down to this - with the recognition by "the international community", someone somehow will put such pressure on Turkey that it will give us our lands. That is to say these people believe in a myth that Obama or another Wilson with some senators from South Dakota will solve our problem which can only be solved in more wars or negotiation or combination of both. Apropos, what I do daily has nothing to do with Nobel Peace prizes therefore my recommendation to you is take a hike instead of suggesting your one book bibliography to me. Finally, to leave you some thought for thinking - why is it that the camp of nay sayers includes Azerbaijan and ARFD in Armenia?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jkalZCM42I7NgT_JyeoSMpoI4AoQ
Let me venture an explanation for ARFD (Armenia), a former junior coalition member. With this clever political position, they are trying to recruit more supporters from among protesting electorates. Although based on my gut feeling, not a thesis, Gregg, I can see how these very people had they been members of a ruling party, would drive the process to much worse conditions and then would sign a truly disastrous agreement for Armenia. With this I will leave the Azerbaijan part of the Sunday puzzle for you to resolve. A hint - the agreement in Zurich has deprived them of the second most important alternative - isolation and blockade of Armenia. Without their first alternative (war) and now losing this one, what is it they are going to do? Accept the status quo that is our best alternative to a deal or agree to a deal on our terms.
Arthur Martirosyan wrote on October 11th, 2009 at 9:45 am
...
However, before you make any recommendations to someone, check your arrogant and pompous assumptions. What if your opponent has read the book? What is journalist Fisk’s “thesis”, anyway, that is if you know what the word means?
...
Greg responds:
Vay, vay. Vah yem asel. Please read my comments better instead of putting labels. Reading further down the list of returns from your apparent Google-level search on "Robert Fisk" would have shown you that it is not "a book" what I am asking you to read. And I would suggest the Oxford Dictionary for "thesis".
Oh, and I do not see you as an opponent.
Humility would only enhance your points, Artur. If they are correct, that is. But you do not want to move from square one - it is up to you, really...
OK, Gregg. Whatever, if you think that your attitude is a sample of humility. Your comments contain nothing but self-aggrandizing belief that the truth is available to you because you have read a collection of Fisk's articles and essays. You may not know that but they were published in one book a year or two ago. I am also glad that you can read OED definition of thesis. Not in Hegelian terms, the syllogism should be if ... then... Where is it in your comments? What else do you have to say on substance?
"The coming defeat of Russia"?
Does the author realize just how stupid this title sounds? And he wants people to take him seriously?
What happened? I thought Armenians were smart. Oh, I forgot, we are idiots when it comes to politics...
The supposition in Boyajian's essay is that Kremlin officials are stupid and Turkey will outsmart Russians in the Caucasus. The fact of the matter is Russia has been in firm control of the Caucasus for two hundreds years, even during the disastrous Bolshevik revolution and during the regime of the Western installed drunkard Yeltsin. The fact of the matter is during the summer of 2008 a ten thousand strong Russian army defeated the combined weight of the Western world and Turkey when it totally crushed the Georgian military in just four days. The fact of the matter is due to this historic defeat of its historic antagonists Moscow has begun to implement various long term economic projects for the Caucasus through its stronghold in Armenia.
This is a great opportunity for Armenia, maybe the best political opportunity it has had in a thousand years. Yet, due to our narrow minded obsessive minds we want to be left out of progress. As long as our homeland fits our shallow national ideologies we could careless if it remains a Third World nation.
I agree with Avetis, the authors needs to take a few courses in Russian history and political science before he continues to write geopolitical essays...
Enough with the combative approach and the rigid pro-Russian positions.
Russia, like every other superpower, is today advancing its own strategic objectives in the South Caucasus apace and with renewed vigor, a process that can often help and sometimes harm the promotion of Armenian national interests!
Understand that the West and Israel (as well as EU/NATO and pan-Turkism advocates) are more interested than Russia in opening the borders, and thus much more behind these so-called dialogue, reconciliation and normalization efforts. Notice what Hillary Clinton was up to with her anti-Armenian sidekick, Phil Gordon, in Zurich yesterday: http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/1009/TurkeyArmenia_deal_signed_after_snag.html?showall
If the borders are opened, Armenia — the last pro-Russian bastion in the South Caucasus — will eventually enter the pro-Turkic EU/NATO camp. There is little protective, but bullying Russia can do about it. Armenians appreciate and long for a more comfortable, innovative and civil Western lifestyle. And, Turkey, the EU and the US lie exactly to Armenia's west. That's where Armenia will be heading -- with or without the adoption and implementation of various legislative and reform measures, and official Moscow's sugar-coated statements!
If you carefully read and reread Mr. Boyajian’s excellent article (who by the way is one of the very few writers in the West to have received multiple university degrees without becoming a Judeo/Turkophile and/or Russophobe), you would have realized that Russia is making a significant mistake by backing the disastrous protocols and not forming a TRUE, HONEST alliance with Armenia that keeps out Turkey.
Avetis and Armen, I see that you are quite interested in these very important and timely subjects. Have you written any articles yourself? If yes, I look forward to reading them.
Our incongruity has been our weak link, and the one thing that our enemies have used consistently to break our backs. Of course, Turkey wants to separate us further. Our complete unification is the only threat to Turkey. Our unity is our only power and salvation. How would Turkey like an announcement that the Armenian Diaspora has now dual citizenship and will vote on all foreign policies... (hypothetical, considering the long road to Democracy in Armenia, but where there is a will there should be a way)
Legal and Civic ties between the Diaspora and Armenia, such as dual citizenship, SHOULD BECOME THE NAME OF THE GAME FROM THIS POINT ON. All Armenians should partake in Armenia's international and foreign affairs and have the right to vote on them. Not a penny should go to the campaigns of ANY U.S. presidential candidate. The stance of the American State Department vis a vis our cause is loud and clear. Guess what, it has been the same for the last 94 years. Instead, regular income should go to Armenia in the form of a "national tax" that every Armenian should pay yearly to our homeland. That way, we can all claim a legal stake in the political health of our homeland.
Our unity is now our only chance to survive as a people.
These protocols are aimed to take care of the obvious, but also serve to demoralize the Diaspora because they serve to take away the only glue, Hye Tadh, that kept us together. It is high time that we all take upon ourselves the responsibility of being dully engaged in our homeland.. To be politically viable, we all have to be on the same page. How do we expect anyone to take us seriously if one hand does not know what the other is up to?
The first and most important politicians that we should LOBBY should be the politicians in Armenia. All others have made ping pong balls out of us, while they cut deals with Turkey. We will always take their “promises “with a grain of salt. Regular conferences and talks should be organized between the Diapsora and Armenia. WE BELONG TO ARMENIA AND TO ARMENIA ALONE.
Bunch o' hogwash.This is all giveaway and minimal return.How could a government who admits 70% of it's population is outside the country yet speaks for the whole.
Weakness is obvious here.No backbone and assertion AND acceptance of the historical fact of Genocide.All so called pres.'s speech is good only for the usual"local consumption".WAAH yes he is!
I am the son and grandson of the Armenian Genocide survivors.I teach my children also about our sadest chapter of history.NEVER ,NEVER FORGET.
Enough said here:
http://armenianweekly.com/2009/10/11/theriault-the-final-stage-of-genocide-consolidation/
The signatures were thrown, and the completion of genocide is on its way.
Martirosyan, you are a sellout. You convinced me once and for all. I had my doubts, but now things are clear.
Mr. Theriault, I cannot thank you enough, particularly for the last paragraph. Indeed, as some of the attack dogs for the current administration and proponents of the protocols have demonstrated, ridicule is the number one tool used to discredit and inditimate the ironically more rational objectors to the adoption of such a position of capitulation. I have failed, due to my temperament, lack of dedicated time, and my lack of expertise, to counteract this trend. You are truly someone of immense value, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for this analysis. You have summed it up so well, sir.
Russia invaded Anatolia in 1876 and again in 1917, but pulled back both times, thus cheating and harming Armenians while losing significant ground.
Russia repressed the anti-Ottoman Armenian revolution based in the Armenian Caucasus in the 19th century. Is this an example of Russian geostrategic intelligence?
Turkey was helped by Russia right after WWI, and battered Armenia a lot. Is this an example of Russia taming Turkey?
Turkey then became a NATO outpost and still is. Is this an example of keen Russian intelligence?
Russia was even at first helping Azerbaijan in the Karabakh war, and Russia gave Karabakh and Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan. Is this an example of how pro-Armenian Russia is?
Conclusion: Russia has made several woeful errors in recent centuries. It has yet to be demonstrated that Russia is out for anyone except itself!
Armen and Avetis are pathetic to see a true friend in Russia. They themselves should take courses in elementary geopolitics.
Most Armenians are against the ruinous protocols and don't buy the idea that Russia is coming to Armenia's rescue!
Let's get real- does the author even know what a 'constituency' is? Word choice, or just typical pan-national crap?
Ays polor tsootsere basdarnerov boralov 40 orva entatskin norenTAVAJANERE
ouzatsnin gadaretzin, Giankernin anbayman karj a.
ASDVATS OKNE MER HAY ZHOGHOVOURTE
The diaspora was silent because the "protestors" were calling for a known foreign operative to become president again. The perception by the diaspora was that Sargsyan was the lesser of two evils. Now, however, we see that Ter Petrosyan's attempt coup was apparently a great leveraging tool by Turkey's allies to pressure a delegitimized Sargsyan to either capitulate and agree to the Protocols or lose his presidency. He of course, lacking any moral fiber, refused to abandon his tenure as president and sold out. The protestors of February-March actually did more to bring about this situation than the president himself.
Greg, I have good news. Erdogan today stated that essentially Turkey will not ratify the protocols.
http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSLB151327
What a Turkish delight! We'd have gains if they did but in this scenario it will be real fun to observe Turks in a Zugzwang. Despite Davutoglu's tactical ruses, there is nothing about Karabakh in the protocols. This diplomatic gain is not a victory yet but it is better than the nay sayers' insistence on playing the game by Turkish rules.
After rethinking, I again cannot agree with the three points above by Martirosyan.
In lieu of events up to this point since the announcement of the protocols, all of it, now, must be judged from yet another angle: Divisive politics in which the vast majority of Armenians are left out of the debate, the exacerbation of negative sentiments and distrust that has resulted at the popular level.
Now on to the points made:
1. Swiss recognition of the genocide is noted. Swiss endorsement of and recent (1990s) reaffirmation of the Lausanne Treaty – a disaster for Armenian - must also be noted. From the “legal technical standpoint,” the Swiss support an illegal treaty ratified during the absence of Armenians. Swiss reliability is also questionable despite the comparatively nominal genocide recognition factor.
2. I wonder what character those “relations” will take since “no precondition” is essentially the continuation of the status quo with the exception of a few minor issues. Turkish aggression will continue, thus negating the concept of “relations” to “acceptance of constant slaps while hoping for scraps.”
Consequently, the “decoupling” – even if true - of either of the issue will become also an irrelevancy. The policies of denial will be renewed and will take on new form under the “joint commissions” clause. The support for Azerbaijan will not, not in any way, be reduced in scope. It would be utterly stupid to even try that one.
The opening will mean losses for the middle class and light industry, which is the only sector keeping Armenia alive aside from disaporan support. This renders the “no loss” speculative nonsense above null. The ones to gain are the ones dividing society by not involving the overwhelming majority of Armenians in the decision making process, in the negotiation process. There is no obvious gain. It is a lie that Georgian routes will be circumvented. It is as if we forget who we are dealing with, thus the divisiveness of this entire process, which perhaps is also a part of the calculated gains for the endorsers of the treaty, which – aside from the obvious NATO proponents – also includes the interests in Armenia who wish to exclude expatriates and diasporans from participating in the State’s affairs; i.e. the static oligarchy.
We read about “additional agreement” implied, the details of which we no doubt will discover 100 feet from impact as we did with this agreement.
It has to occur to people that the division between the Yerevan so-called government and diaspora was also part of the calculated benefits by the present day "Entente." Those of us who evoke historical parallels are ridiculed by the hired henchmen, including Davidian and Martirosyan, but let me draw one more parallel:
1. Despite the Entente in force, Turkey - member of the Axis - managed to be relieved of the "burden of defeat" due to 2 significant factors: a) a negligent Russophile and nihilist Armenian government and military officers in 1920 at Kars as described in painful detail here, and b) Bolshevik support for Kemal's socialist pretensions and the resulting Kars and Moscow Treaties.
2. Today Turkey has been promoted to "ally" status and is a full member of NATO, and yet we are to believe that somehow they will be "pressured" to accomodate to "international norms" when it concerns particularly the issue of genocide recognition. One would either have to be a paid agent or utterly stupid to swallow that pill.
Therefore, the parallel situation with that of post WWI is again in place where Russo-Turkish relations have been warmed to unprecedented levels where, indeed as one hired attack dog mentioned in another article's comment section, the Russian head of state visited Ankara for the first time in 500 years, which indicates the promotion of Turkey to some sort of regional "leadership" status, the sign of a the weasel in the chicken coop scenario building, if you will. The situation, therefore, is even worse than it was in 1920 where corruption and denationalization is rampant, where "good neighborliness of our wonderful Turkic brothers" propaganda is blaring from the state controlled media, where the oligarchy and its diasporan minions disregard all Armenian public concerns, where the dogmatic and illegitimate self-declared president is under pressure due to his own illegal ascension. I wonder what sort of efforts there are in demoralizing the Armenian military. The only positive I can think of are nationalist thinkers such as Ayvazyan, Papian, and so on in Armenia who , as much as their resources and constricted freedoms allow, are countering this propaganda machine.
Gevork Yazedjian's article on Kars has demonstrated the stark similarities during the fall of Kars today especially in the attitudes of the ruling Armenian regime. http://www.ararat-center.org/upload/files/Razm_&_Anvtang_16.pdf
The irony of Armenia being the only country in the region having designs on the lands of others, expressing such plans explicitly, and which has actually attacked and invaded a neighbor and its closest ally Russia having done the same, seems to escape this crowd who continually whine about evil Turks and Muslims trying to destroy their country.
Ayse, the pathological level of denial of wrongdoing and the justification to maintain a blood-thirsty murderer's personality by you people never cease to amaze.
A nationalist government that looks after Armenia's interests first must replace the current government. The present Armenian government is concerned mainly with the interests of itself, its cronies, and with accommodating the major powers (NATO and Russia). We must find a new way. Total unity is impossible but enough unity around common goals must be found. If we do not act, we will lose Artsakh too.
I do not see a trace of thinking in my opponent's tirades. Unfortunately, the current borders of Turkey are recognized not only by the Swiss and implicitly by Armenia but by many other countries, on the other hand the Treaty of Sevres by none. Whether this will change over time is not the subject matter of the protocols. One thing for sure territories can be regained only in war, not by lobbyists and their hacks. Decoupling of Karabakh issue from the Turkish Armenian agenda is a fact. I will leave the vituperative guessing to Hagop and his benefactors. If decoupling were not a fact, Erdogan today and Davutoglu yesterday would not try to connect the two. Their efforts are as futile as Hagop's "inventions". He cannot know for example what may happen to the Georgian route when we know what happened and we know that Georgians have been using that leverage against Javakhk. It is a trivial argument - Armenia can gain from the border opening. It does not mean that it is panacea or does not come with threats. But these can be handled in due order. Hagop's irresponsible high flown chattering is both easy and cheap.
Moderators, why do you allow personal attacks? If Nalbandyan has nothing else to say, why are his insults and labeling of opponents making into this forum? I am not going to respond and if the goal is to shut down me, I will simply leave.
Nalbandyan, only those who do not are about Armenia and Artsakh can advance an all or nothing approach in international regional politics. Miloshevich was precisely a player of that kind. The professor of philosophy will continue to follow shadows in his cave at Worcester College, it does not matter for him what happens in and to Armenia. Does it for you? I really doubt.
I wouldn't dream of becoming an "opponent" to paid agents. I don't get paid for this stuff.
Dear moderators, the personal attacks always, without exception, originate from Martirosyan. He's trying to utilize the standard methods to stifle his opponents. I urge you not to fall for this tactic.
Thank you
For whatever reason, my comments are not being posted. I will however respond once again to the propaganda machine's pivotal lie: The illusion of the "the all or nothing approach" is a total lie. The overwhelming consensus so far is against the protocols for the principal points discussed repeatedly. There is no need to capitulate to Turkish demands and agree to a "historical commission." There is no justification for negotiations at such levels without opposition and/or public consultation, negotiations conducted under the propaganda blanket of a "progressive non-belligerent neighbor" when the reality clearly says Turkey is an aggressor on many levels. Clearly those who use such deceptive propaganda and exclusion tactics do not care about the welfare of any Armenian, inside or outside of Armenia
"This infamous document, which was recently initialed in Switzerland, could justly be called the “Protocol of Surrender,” as it is a document that allows Turkey to export goods and services to Armenia, and Armenia to export culturally talented, and not so talented, ladies to enliven the nightlife of Istanbul and Kars. Of course, there is nothing wrong with that; after all, the moneys earned will help the Armenian economy."
I seldom enjoy resorting to personal attacks when criticizing a writer's ideas, but did this author just suggest that the only thing Armenia has to offer the Turkish market is prostitutes? -- and did so by exploiting, in order to make a cheap dirty point, what is arguably a horrid situation for many women in the post-Soviet space who have found themselves to be in this situation? Watch Dessert Nights by Hetq Mr. Astarjian, I don’t think there’s anything funny about that.
Dear Editor,
This is the 2nd time I’ve noticed this type of rhetoric in the Weekly. I have also heard it been repeated in off hand discussions with people and on the internet. Please do a better job of screening articles before publication. I know a family who’s mother was tricked into going to Greece for work and ended up in Dubai pleasuring 10-20 men a night. It is deeply disturbing and offensive. If you can, ask the writer to remove that paragraph, or pull the article out completely. Thank you.
“This stuff” is your intellectual impotence. Baseless accusations are an indication of your world view – whoever is in disagreement with your faulty arguments of a dilettante is a “paid agent”. The only agents in this game are the ones advancing the Turkish agenda of discord among Armenians through libel and lies. They may have found in you and your likes perfect tools whether paid or unpaid. The dust will settle soon and there will be no need for additional evidence for the above.There is no consensus. Negotiations are not with Turkey alone, they are with US, EC and Russia. Armenia does not need to consult with intellectual imbeciles and hysterical types. A simple rule of thumb in international politics is this – you always negotiate when you can gain more at the table than otherwise. Armenia has gained. Hysteria has set in among Armenia’s enemies.
There were public consultations in Armenia - that's where Aivazian made his statement. We are dealing here with a party of hysterical and historical losers. Nalbandyan is a paid agent. Who is opposed to the protocols? Nalbandyan, Aliev and Erdogan.
Mr. Theriault — how refreshing to finally have somebody who acknowledges that, at the very least, we are making a legitimate point. I thank you.
As for what you said however: ”Henry Dumanian, I appreciate your response. To clarify, I did not say that Abisoghom explicitly argued that ARF people have no right to speak against the protocols because of past support for Sarkisian. I said that his post “suggests” this. I think a fairly straight-forward reading of his post supports this interpretation: he is suggesting that the ARF is an illegitimate critic now because it did not oppose Sarkisian before. My point is that that past history imposes an obligation to try to fix the problems that have resulted.” — Point taken. I would like to add, however, that the issue I raised was that Hamparian is guilty of doing things he is shunning other people (like me) for doing now — until the ARF addresses this hypocrisy honestly and truthfully it cannot, in fact, move forward and continue to address the current problems with any effective measure of force or legitimacy.
“As a question, I was wondering where I could go for more information about the massacre you discuss. I was aware of arrests and beatings of opposition activists, but did not know that there was widespread killing.” — You can view the human rights ombudsman’s report ON the official government report regarding March 1 (in which he accusses of them deflating the number of people killed — note, although it would be helpful of reading his own report on March 1, I am specifically referring to his report ON the government report). And also, you can look to how the people of Armenia (and arguably even the government) refer to March 1 with almost the same tone and scourn that the words “April 24″ recieve. It is considered a massacre, and at the core of a huge chain of oppressive measures including the usual beating and intimidation, to sporadic murders and assasinations. Americans live in a post-9/11 world, the peopl of Armenia live in a post-March 1 world. I have repeatedly stressed how important it is to understand how the events of March 1 play in to the psyche of the inhabitants of Armenia.
And, regarding my “assumption that the protocols will ensure that Armenia will prosper.” I never suggested that the opening of the boarder will give Armenia prosperity (at least not in the short term, but definitely not under the terms outlined in the protocols). I was only suggesting that such a position by the ARF would be along the lines of the position they had on March 2nd — admitting the faults, but choosing to work within the framework already set for the greater good. No?
If Armenia has "capitulated", then why is it that Erdogan is not accepting it? He is as unhappy as Aliev and Nalbandyan. It does not take a rocket scientist or public health expert to see the obvious. If correctly conducted, Armenia and Armenian nation can clearly benefit even from the commission. Any historian understands that much, including Akcam, but not self-styled historians Nalbandyan. All for nothing may work for philosophers from Worcester College, but it is a prescription for a disaster at the level of practical international politics and policy making. It is not by chance that when Aivazian was in the government in 1992 Armenia recognized territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, a blunder of historical scale. Who is today shouting the loudest foul? Aivazian and his crony Nalbandyan.
The above set of accusations, coupled with the instantaneous responses, are a clear a sign of desperation. The opposition to the protocols is virtually every nationalist Armenian out there. While there are many flavors to opposition, "Yes to normalization and no to protocols" is the dominant one among throughout the world. I am a proponent of that view with all due precautions taken. At this moment, there are no precautions taken. There has been no public discourse before formulation of the agreement. There has been no formal conference involving any opposition parties. That is a patent falsehood spread by Martirosyan above. In addition, the article above does nothing less than decieve Armenians into thinking they have no other choice but to accept this set of nonsenical agreements with the deceptive "no preconditions" clause imposed upon Armenians in the main.
As to Aliyev's outbursts and so called grievances, I have already mentioned the "disagreement theatrics" of our well-counseled neighbors. The appearances of division are more than likely a tactic in themselves. Erdogan's and Davutoglu's rhetoric concerning Artsakh is more believable, however, and this will continue as Turkish policy no matter what the outcome of any impotent (in terms of Turkish concessions) treaty.
This discussion has turned into mutual accusations, insults, and curses. We have not approved several comments made over the past hour and we will continue deleting all new messages that insult others. Please make your points without resorting to personal attacks.
Thank you.
The Moderators
OK, my comment was not approved. Let me rephrase: According to the proponent of the protocols above, since Aliyev is against the protocols, then all Armenians who are aganst the protocols are in cahoots with Aliyev. This association game will not convince any Armenian to abandon their position against the protocol, but it might give the interested parties the bonus of dividing Armenian society yet some more. Now, those who serve the protocol proponents will be given the green light to brand their opponents as traitors. Interesting turn of events. I will not mention KGB or exports of cheap propagandists along with cheap submarines or anything as such--:)
hey Murat, do I have to say it? look at Israel and Palestine...
There were no protocols or special clauses or conditions about "recognition of borders" or "territorial integrity" that I am aware of when the Turkish border with Armenia was open before 1993.
Therefore, it is hard to see why it was necessary to have such terms for the border to reopen. Mr. Davidian, therefore, must necessarily be incorrect when he states that the clauses about borders etc. were a necessary part of the protocols.
Perhaps one would argue that times have changed. Yes, it is 16 years later. So what? It could just as well have been 2 weeks later, 2 years later, or 20 years later.
No, the protocols' clauses about borders and so forth were a Turkish demand. Maybe a US or Russian demand too. The joint commission on 1915 was a Turkish demand too. No Armenian of any note on the face of the Earth or on any other planet has ever seriously asked to sit down with denialists appointed by Turkey to discuss 1915. NO ONE. That proves how unworthy the idea is.
The logical conclusion: Turkey's preconditions were placed into the protocols, though they were perhaps not as strongly worded as Turkey would have liked. Armenia, on the other hand, made no demands at all.
This is the imbalance that some cannot see. I don't recall, by the way, Armenia's being prosperous before 1993 on account of the open Turkish border. Does my memory fail me? Or perhaps it was not open LONG enough, huh?
I think that many protocol supporters should just admit that they wanted Armenia to cave in to Turkey no matter what. Even if Armenia had to say "There was no genocide", certain of the commentators above would have said "But Armenia needed to sign it. It was the only way."
By the way, raise your hand if you trust a corrupt president to negotiate with Turkey? It's funny but if an American president and his parliament were that outright corrupt, Americans and Armenian Americans would not trust their decisions at all.
Is Serge right just because his side is the one with the guns?
Um, Dave, if you didn't realize the Hanrabedagans are staunch nationalists. And what does 'total unity' mean? Diaspora and Armenia (and if that's the case, where was unity with the people on 1 March 2008? Oh, that's right, the whole Diaspora just shut up! Just like they did when the Karabakh movement started!)? Just a hunch but the people here have a very different idea of what it means to be Armenian, what Armenian policy (domestic and foreign), etc should be. Drop the pan-nationalist rhetoric and take IR 101. Relations with Turkey improves Armenia economically and weakens Azerbaijan's position at the negotiating table. It has been a policy of successive Armenian governments for a simple, clear reason that any college freshman would understand.
And, any small, weak state must operate within the power structures put forth by stronger neighbors and institutions. What you see as 'accommodation' is called 'politics' in most circles. But, if you're just a Diaspora Armenia for whom Armenia is nothing more than abstract, you'll never appreciate that.
Murat- Kibris unuttun mu? I argue that Armenians need to drop the paranoia (one of Armenia's most prominent so-called intellectuals, Armen Ayvazyan, recently said that Turkey will recreate the Ottoman Empire in Armenia, which is just dumb), but calls from the nationalist establishment in Turkey (and Azerbaijan) hardly help the process of peace. Even Erdogan, who is probably the least nationalist mainstream politician in modern Turkey's history, falls prey to this- see his interview in the Wall Street Journal where he plays up the notion that the Diaspora controls the Republic of Armenia (a common myth in Turkish public discourse). Moreover, outside of leftist intellectual circles, there is the inability of Turkey to recognize its own contemporary nationalism is merely a continuation of the nationalism that led to a genocide of Armenians (see Zurcher and Hanioglu). Just be careful, Mr. Kettle, before you call the Pot black.
SERJ SARKISIAN,THE PRESIDENT OF ARMENIA SHOULD READ
THIS ARTICKLE AND SHOULD LEARN WHO THE TURKS ARE.
You may have not noticed, but this is exactly the game that you and your likes started to play from day one - whoever dared to speak out for the protocols was branded traitor, paid agent et al. I do not claim that all those opposed are necessarily in Aliev's camp. Stop hiding behind others, "national hero". Many were simply confused, many were emotionally agitated by ignorati like Nalbandyan, others were following the party line -- many different motives and reasons. However, now that it is getting clearer where the game is those vehemently opposed without any rational arguments are doing that for ulterior motives. We cannot rule out here anything. It has been the goal of the Turkish intelligence to split the Armenian nation on this issue and anyone who is working toward that agenda should be brought out to the light. I do not know if they are paid tools or fools. It does not matter. Calling themselves Armenian nationalists won't help. Aivaizian and Papian today are the staunchest nationalists if one were to believe them, but in 1992 it was OK for them to be in the government that recognized territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. Similarly, Nalbandyans an Boyajians of this world are the sofa loud mouth heroes. They are not going to be held responsible for any consequences - they will not be the ones spilling their blood, they will be just signing petitions and letters to Congressmen. Therefore they will continue their irresponsible, ignorant and venomous chattering - we told ya so. And this is the bottom line of this debate.
Moderators, please exercise balance. Had you nipped in the bud Nalbandyan's very first ad hominems, your protege may have behaved in a more civilized manner. These ad hominem attacks are for everyone to see in his very first comment.
HYE, WHAT DID THE ARMENIAN LEADERSHIP EXPECT FROM THE TURK? THE TURK WHO HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO MAINTAIN ANY FOREIGN RELATIONS OF CONSEQUENCE WITH OTHER NATIONS? AND, WITH THE ARMENIANS, WHOSE PEOPLES THEY MURDERED AND FORCED FROM THEIR LANDS OF OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS? SURPRISE, SURPRISE... THE INEPT AND INEXPERIENCED ARMENIAN LEADERSHIP TURNED TO OTHERS, BEYOND ALL THE ARMENIAN
INTELLIGENTIA, TO SEEK DIRECTION... FOOLISH, FOOLISH.
WE SHALL GAIN OUR STRENGTHS NOT FROM OTHERS - WE WILL GAIN OUR PLACE IN THE WORLD WHEN WE LEARN TO TRUST ONE ANOTHER - FOR WE ARE ONE PEOPLE - ARMENIANS IN THE HOMELAND, THE ARMENIANS WHOSE SURVIVOR PARENTS, GRANDPARENTS FLED - AND YET - WHO SERVE OUR HOMELAND - BETTER THAN THE TURKISH LEADERSHIP! AMOT! IN THE MEMORIES OF ALL WHO WERE SLAUGHTERED, ALL WHO WERE FORCED TO LEAVE OUR LANDS TO LEARN TO LIVE IN THE FOREIGN LANDS - IN THE MEMORY OF SARDARAD, WHICH WON US THE ARMENIA OF TODAY... TURK LEADERS ARE NOT YET JOINED TO CIVILIZED WORLD.
Manooshag
Armenian nationalists are for “normalization”? Who is against the protocols today? Aliev, Erdogan and Nalbandyan (not the minister, the insulted expert who was not consulted). Are Aliev and Erdogan playing tactical games? This may have made sense before signing the protocols, but why would they do that after signing? Even if they were playing a game, it does not matter now – the ball is in the Turkish court. Erdogan is inviting the US and EC pressure and that is not a bad outcome for us. It is much better than recognition of territorial integrity of Azerbaijan in 1992 when Hagop’s tutor was in the government of "Armenian nationalists". And so was Ara Papian, by the way.
Hye, Serge, artentzee/wake up! ARMENIAN SHALL NOT TRUST THE TURK - EVER!
You are foolish not to turn to your own intelligentia, in Haiastan and in Diaspora, the Armenians - not to the 'odars' who have another agenda which does not include our Armenian nation who suffered a Genocide, still denied by Turks, our survivors who had to flee to civilized lands - all over the world - in order to recover from the horrors of a Genocide and today number nearly 10 million Armenians.
Serge, artentzee/wake up! The Turks are the enemy - Hayerus, oor vor enk, hagah-Hai chenk! Toorkneh vor mezee geh spahn-eh... meenchev aysor. Serge, artentzee... (Armenians, wherever, are not the enemy - Turkey has been killing us - still into today, in their Ottoman thinking).
Azad, angahgh Haiastan. Manooshag
Dear Dee,
I do not want to go in circular arguments since many of issues raised by you have been addressed several times. However, in the spirit of rational discourse and in good faith I will repeat some of the most pertinent ones.
1. The protocols only implicitly recognize the current borders, explicitly they reaffirm territorial integrity of countries. This was done implicitly in many international agreements signed by Armenia since 1992 - The UN Charter, Helsinki Accords, BSEC, to name a few. Moreover, the Armenian government of LTP that included Armen Aivazian and Ara Papian went so far as recognizing territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. You are not the only one who has been raising the issue of open borders despite territorial disputes in other cases. Matthew Der Manuelian in his piece published by Hetq even cited some of the cases. A detailed scrutiny of these cases demonstrates that they are not applicable to our condition. I refer to this exchange here -
http://hetq.am/en/politics/turkish-armenian-protocols-reality-and-irrationality-–-a-response/#more-18529
In your commentary you are getting close to the real driving forces behind the protocols and powers supporting this process. Armenia would be saying no not to Turkey which to the last moment hoped that the Armenian diaspora could yield pressure on the government of Armenia to reject the process, but to the US, EC and Russia, not surprisingly all represented at the highest levels in Zurich. In the last couple of decades we witnessed how the confluence of interests of this troika brought to the knees Yugoslavia. I am not implying that the instruments used to force Armenia's compliance would be exactly the same. I'd leave it to your imagination to think about some of the consequences of the all or nothing stance for the Armenian national interests in the region and primarily in Artsakh.
2. You are conveniently stressing the Turkish preconditions and omitting the biggest gain for Armenia and Artsakh - the decoupling of the Karabakh settlement from the Turkish-Armenian agenda. This is a matter of such gravity that Turkey may not ratify the protocols and thus invite the US and EC pressure to bear on Ankara. If ratified and implemented the protocols will obviously weaken Azerbaijan's alternative to a deal on our terms.
3. You can call Sargsyan's regime corrupt but until very recently ARFD was a member of the governing coalition. The argument that the protocols are not acceptable because you do not trust the government of Armenia will shift the discussion away from the merits and disadvantages of the outcomes. Following your logic no Armenian government could participate in such process until we were assured that the government is not corrupt.
4. Economic gains from the border opening are not assured. Prudent economic policies may hedge against potential damage to certain sectors of the Armenian economy and result in structural shifts increasing Armenia's competitiveness and loosening the grip of oligarchs on the economy. Again, I'd leave these arguments to experts on economy and trade. However, it should be obvious that if nothing else this situation will significantly decrease the Georgian leverage on Armenia which has been used in recent years by the Georgian government to the detriment of Javakhk Armenians.
5. Finally, neither Davidian as far as I understand nor I are saying that the protocols are the best thing since the sliced bread. There are areas of concern in the text, namely not specified clauses for exiting the regime of protocols in case of unilateral withdrawal of one of the parties (Turkey decides to close the border again, e.g.) and, even more importantly, deadlines, modalities and benchmarks of the historical sub-commission. Hopefully, the Armenian parliament could address those issues in reservations to the text of the protocols before ratification.
The "traitor" branding of the administration was a natural course of events due to the silence under which the protocols were conducted and the very nature of the protocols. The aura of aloofness and indifference by this president seems to attract this sort of negative reaction despite all the hard laborings of propagandists trying desperately to protect his position. No matter how much Martirosyan tries to argue the Armenian majority reaction out of existence, that was the reaction. This is a bankrupt position. Now the bankrupt argument consists of discrediting Aivazian, Papian and other for opposing the protocols, not by wasy of argument on points and issues raised, but instead with the association game: "He worked as advisor to Ter Petrosyan, therefore he is guilty of making bad policy." Aivazian has made it abundantly clear that he never agreed to any of the policies instituted by the HHSh, and he had already resigned early in the game. Aivazian's position has never changed as the matter of fact. Evocation of moderations is yet further political tactic and has nothing to do with genuine complaints of unethical conduct.
Arthur asks "Who is against the protocols today?"
The answer is practically everyone except that minority of self-appointed "elite" who has to gain from this dubious deal. It is no coincidence that the proponents of TARC are also the proponents of these Protocols. Look at the list of organizations and individual in support. TARC was a businessman's club for the most part on the Armenian side, and it is the same businessman's club that is advocating the Protocols yet again on the Armenian side. In contrast, the three diasporan parties, all three, have joined in the condemnation despite their differences, and popular support for the Protocols either doesn't exist or, at best, there is confusion among the minority.
I have a question that has been bothering me, which I would like to hear others' opinions on.
After these protocols, what is to stop Armenia from becoming a status similar to the Palestinians? I don't mean this in every sense, but in a particular sense. What happens after the Palestinians made agreements with Israel? Israel continually finds "reasons" why Palestinians violate the agreements (i.e. a non-governmental group, acting on its own, commits a violent act on Israeli territory). The result is not just collective punishment in retaliation, but Israel declares it then need not live up to its own agreements (i.e. refusal to halt building of new settlements).
So, suppose Armenia objects to certain demands of Turkey regarding the make-up of the historical commission? let's say they object to the slightest thing -- like for example, revisionist history regarding numbers of people dead, or scholars who are not impartial academics ? These are reasonable. However, could they not be twisted by Turkey (who has all along been illegally blockading Armenia, illegally occupying Cyprus, etc), to say they need not hold to their negotiated stance since they will *claim* Armenia is not?
Turkey's nationalist path has repeatedly led it to respond to internal tensions and problems with external aggression. Despite the fact that there is Erdogan in power who is not of the Kemalist party, I don't think this nationalist attitude has changed at all, and certainly not the "entitlement" mentality.
Everyone wants Armenia to have normal relations with Turkey. A normal country however would accept the wrongs its ancestors have done to the neighbor in question and embark on a truly well intentionned partnership. Ricardo, what you are saying would be true about politics with stonger neighbors if the neighbor in question did not have such a flaud history of deceipts, Genocide,dessecration of churches and historical monuments and a horrible track record in human rights that continues till today. The Diaspora exists because of them and the Genocide they perpertrated. The Diaspora knows Turkey all too well and wants to warn Armenia of the PanTurkic dream. Armenia should impose strict rules of land ownership when the borders open. Ricardo, the Diaspora is not a country with a government. It's main objective unfortunately is staying Armenian and fighting for their crushed faternal legacies with Turkey. It takes a lot of sacrifice for us to constantly raise monetary and otherwise help for Armenia, which we do religiously every year. You said we were not there for Armenia but the same thing can be asked of Armenia. Was there any time where Armenia was there for Diaspora? However the Diaspora had sent some fighters to Karabagh and how can you dismiss all the investments we make there, and all the political work the Diaspora does to procure Armenia monetary help from the countries we are in as well as protection from not so beneficial policies. The main message to Armenia dealing with Turkey is: Beware!
I have yet to see valid arguments that dispel of the points made in this essay, only ad hominem attacks.
This is response to Martirosyan's three point essay above:
1. "LTP that included Armen Aivazian and Ara Papian went so far as recognizing territorial integrity of Azerbaijan." Again, the primitive association game is played to discredited individual cadre in opposition. The irony is that these men were eventually forced to leave the Ter Petrosyan administration specially due to the territoriality issue, and they have not looked back since.
There is much spinsterism in making the artificial distinction between "implicit border recognition" versus "explicit recognition of territorial integrity." The fact of the matter is that both are the same, and the verbiage brought to the fore at any given time will depend on the conditions and context, in which Armenia's capitulation in these protocols and the entire 'normalization process" will made conditions unfavorable to Armenians.
The analogy (not metaphor) with Yugorslavia is invalid. I have already made the argument above. The main local leg of the "troika" for Yugoslavia, Germany (which is essentially the EU in terms of driving foreign policy) is not as adamant or involved about the Armenian issue as it was on the Balkan. Solana's presence is more a formality in comparison. I would again recommend an article by Tim Carr on the topic the link of which I have posted above. These implicit threats are not of much consequence except as having propaganda value to support the flawed argument in the article above in turn supported by a half-baked scenario/context.
2. The decoupling is an illusion. This and the reasons for it have been stated already. Turkish position on Artsakh and Azerbaijan will never change as long as pan-Turkist ambitions remain, and all sign posts go in that direction, including the Central Eurasian project. In short it is the expansion of the idea of Central Asia to include Asia Minor, and the geopolitical implications are obvious.
3. ARFD simply left the coalition because they did not agree with the current administration's position on these protocols. They assumed, wrongly apparently, that the same policy as during Kocharian's administration would be followed. They were proved wrong, and they left. I don't see much contradiction there. The blind eye in domestic policy should be noted, such as the poor record on education, as control of that Ministry was under ARF, but the ARF has not demonstrated ambiguity on this issue. For this reason they also have the support of the other diaspora parties.
As to corruption, Dee's concerns are those of the majority: There will be no adequate administation on the border opening and the socio-economic consequences due to corruption. This President is particularly inept, aloof, and lacks popular support. Without going into details, this administration is even more neglectful on matters domestic than the previous. There is reason to worry.
4. The "prudence of economic policies" is where most are concerned, frightened to death, actually. This is in fact coupled with the corruption factor brought up above by Dee and all others who have dealt with this issue. Chances are there will be no such "cautionary policy" implemented, as there is no such precedence in the successive administrations, something which has progressively worsened since this administration took the helm, and it matters not the "global financial crisis" and other such red herring. This is a matter of policy, not dollar amounts. It is also an illusion that the Turkish path will somehow effectively subsidize, provide a viable alternative to the Georgia route. Again, it is as if we forget who we are dealing with, a belligerent enemy no matter what so-called "international pressures" exist (which do not) .
5. The unilateral pullout is an interesting aspect. Thank you for bringing that up. ;m not sure, but in the President's declarations there was also the matter of "timeliness in compliance." This makes the protocols potentially impotent, as perhaps this was simply installed as a litmus test of Armenian and Turkish reaction. The gains of such games are many.
Martirosyan's arguments have not convinced the validity of this entire "process" nor the reasons for adhering them beyond the formal state level pomp of "having champagne with the representatives of the Troioka." Yet, one good thing that happened was the 3 diasporan parties acted in accord! Who knows, they might form a habit.
Janine, for the first time since the original split between Erbakan (Refah) and Buyukanit (the military chief of staff), Erdogan (AKP) and Buyukanit have a more cordial political relationship, and Erdogan has now adopted the Military's (read Kemalist) ambitious rhetoric of "revival of Ottoman glory" and such. It is the same pan-Turkist ideology only rephrased to support Islamist (versus Islamic) political ideology: i.e. the re-instatement of the Caliphate and so on versus the "Gray wolf" mythology. Erdogan's Islamist block is not very similar to that of Erbakan in such matters. Erdogan's party is essentially a nationalist party which has reconciled Islamism with pan-Turkism. I have posted a link above of Harun Yahya's website, and this shows that even fundamentalist Islamists have adopted a pan-Turkic stance. which is a comparatively newer phenomenon. If such ambitions are in place and are unhindered by "international norms," which, as you have seen in Israel how much meaning "international norms" have had, then there is the danger of making Armenia a colony of a sort. I have used the same wording as the Moscow Treaty adopted between Russia and Turkey in sthe post WWI era: Armenia was delcared a joint Protectorate uner Russia and Turkey, which essentially means colony.
Here is how easily Nalbandyan's lies are refuted. He claims that
"The irony is that these men were eventually forced to leave the Ter Petrosyan administration specially due to the territoriality issue, and they have not looked back since."
If we take a closer look Ara Papian was with the Armenian Foreign Ministry as a second secretary of the US and Canada Division of the American Department (1991-92), Head of Iran Division of the Middle East Department (1994-95), and Head of Security Cooperation Division of the Security Issues and Arms Control Department (1997-99). Mr. Papian was previously posted to the Armenian Embassy in Tehran, Iran (1992-1993, second secretary) and the Armenian Embassy in Bucharest, Romania (1995-1996, second secretary; 1997, Charge d'Affaires).
Papian left diplomatic service a year after his benefactor, LTP, was forced out of power. True, Aivazian was part of the LTP government until 1994 or two more years after the infamous recognition:
From 1992 to 1994 he worked as Assistant to the President of Armenia, Adviser to the Foreign Minister of Armenia, and Acting Head of the Armenian Delegation to the Conference (now Organization) on Security and Cooperation in Europe at Vienna.
But contrary to Nalbandyan's claims he did not leave that government over territorial issues. He was there when that government recognized territorial integrity of Azerbaijan in 1992 and stayed there for two more years. So much for "the Armenian nationalist" credentials. I challenge Nalbandyan to produce a shred of evidence that Aivazian left the LTP government over disagreements on territorial issues. Any public statement dated 1994-95 will do.
"Nalbandian's lies are refuted." Fine, refute them. "March 1992 versus November 1994" blah blah. I am no specialist, and I don't care. What I do know is that these men, even during Ter Petrosyan's tenure, disagreed with his policies and expressed their views in opposition. The attempt to paint them as hypocrites is not going to work.
I do not recall Charles Aznavour in support of TARC or for that matter known to the world as a businessman. There are many other supporters of the protocols who do not fall in Nalbandyan's box labeled businessmen and supporters of TARC. To assert that practically everyone is against he would need results of a referendum or at the very least an opinion poll. This tactical ruse has been used by LTP's All-National Armenian Movement, Armenian National Congress - the very titles imply that whoever is opposed is not a member of "the national". With all due respect to some 15 thousand people who participated in the protest the other day in Yerevan, that is by far not "practically everyone." We can easily add to the list of those unhappy with protocols Aliev, Erdogan and majority of Azeri Turks and significant numbers of Turks.
Bringing up Charles Aznavour was very predictable. Sorry comrade, you are predictable.
Dear Janine,
You are asking an important question that is what if Turkey does not comply with provisions after ratification or does not ratify the protocols. In both cases they will be held accountable by US, EC and Russia and will make the work of Armenian diplomats and lobbyists much easier. Armenians won't be like Palestinians if only because we have two nation-states.
It is not enough for you to know because you claim to know too many things that in reality are based on an article or two. You asserted that they left the government over disagreements but you failed to produce any evidence. Papian did not leave the government of LTP who had gone much further in his ties with Turkey - meeting with Turkesh et al. and Aivazian was there at the time of recognition of Azerbaijan's territorial integrity and he lacked integrity to walk out of that government. Case closed, unless you produce evidence of their disagreements with LTP policies while in service.
hagopn wrote:
Janine, for the first time since the original split between Erbakan (Refah) and Buyukanit (the military chief of staff), Erdogan (AKP) and Buyukanit have a more cordial political relationship, and Erdogan has now adopted the Military’s (read Kemalist) ambitious rhetoric of “revival of Ottoman glory” and such. It is the same pan-Turkist ideology only rephrased to support Islamist (versus Islamic) political ideology: i.e. the re-instatement of the Caliphate and so on versus the “Gray wolf” mythology.
Thanks for your reply, hagopn. (Please feel free to respond, anybody else interested.) Hagop, this makes me more worried, for one simple reason. The US is in a (predictably) disastrous war in Iraq following a game-plan developed elsewhere by those who felt the entire Middle East would be a better place with some fantasy of a new dynasty in place. So, when we first went in, there was this great fantasy of the revival of dynastic dreams coupled with Iranian parties which were quickly forgotten as allies when they proved so unreliable. (Which again, anybody could have predicted who was not living in a fantasy of a Middle East and promised pipelines to Haifa. Unfortunately we have ideologues running everything and reality runs far behind all the time. It seems this is nothing new.)
It is too uncomfortably close to the other disastrous dream (for some people) that we now get all this rhetoric of a revived fantasy Ottoman Empire where all religious minorities are treated wonderfully. That is a patent fantasy which is being deliberately cycled. Coupled with vying interests regarding pipelines, etc. I worry that Armenia will be in the middle of it all -- the next disastrous fantasy of people who use power because they have it.
As a recap on the spats above:
1. The number of protesters mentioned in Yerevan is 60,000 or so. I would be surprised if any Armenian supported this measure.
2. "Being held accountable" to US, EC, and Russia just doesn't make for good security measures. Our nation state status will be endangered. The same attitude of reliance on "international diplomacy and aid" has resulted in the destruction of Armenian statehood multiple times in our history, recent and distant. That's the entire point of opposing these protocols and the entire imposed so-called "normalization" process. Russia has abandoned Armenia's interests before in favor of improving relations with Turkey, and relations today, even in the words of Martirosyan above, haven't been better. Read my comments above for details.
Why only Aznavour? There are many others who are neither businessman nor know for their support of TARC. That process, by the way, was a clear indication by the US government of the limits for recognition given their national interests - it was a genocide but no territorial claims. Very simply put we either take that kind of recognition and continue to build on it until the right and ripe moment or we continue to defy the interests of powers, play ostrich with all-or-nothing stance as prescribed by the professor of philosophy from Worcester College. The second choice is easier for those who can love Armenia in abstraction. In reality, there can be dire consequences for Armenia and Artsakh. You have not done your homework on Miloshevich by reading one article on Yugoslavia. He and his entourage were confident that they can take the all or nothing stance. As to your primitive reading of Germany's role, I'd say in our case we have Britain there. Moreover, the instruments of coercion are way too many in our case. For you they mean nothing, for Armenia they may mean a lot more since you won't be at the receiving end of the nothing. Hence your irresponsible bravado.
Arthur M. wrote:
Dear Janine,
You are asking an important question that is what if Turkey does not comply with provisions after ratification or does not ratify the protocols. In both cases they will be held accountable by US, EC and Russia and will make the work of Armenian diplomats and lobbyists much easier. Armenians won’t be like Palestinians if only because we have two nation-states.
Thank you for your reply to my question. I would like to hope this was true. However, there is one clause bothering me in what you wrote. It seems to me that the government of Armenia (similar to other governments in the region with the exception of Turkey and Israel) has failed to grasp the power of lobbying efforts of the diaspora and to work in cooperation with it. I understand that lobbyist groups for the most part of Israel and Turkey simply support whatever the government line is of those two countries. For we Armenians, it is different - diaspora has worked independently all along because the government of Armenia was, for one thing, under Soviet for so long.
However, recent events seem to say to me that the government of Armenia has failed to realize the important power of lobbying of the diaspora, both in the United States and in Europe. We have made great gains against a very disparate level of power. How will they change to learn these lessons of politics successfully instead of with what are seen as setbacks?
Thank you for the conversation.
Neither Aivazian nor Papian have produced any meaningful arguments against but more importantly they have failed miserably in putting together alternative policy options. If they have, I'd like to see those. It is not enough to say do not sign, "freedom or death", it is not enough even to make arguments for not signing, it is absolutely critical to state what are the alternative policy options.
The decoupling is a fact accepted by the troika. They consistently have insisted on decoupling, even last minute in Zurich, Davutoglu failed to please his prime minister. Turkey may refuse to ratify and that will be in our interests and to our advantage. One must be blind not to see that.
A demonstration of aloofness http://www.lragir.am/engsrc/comments15518.html
Armenian journalists have to get their information from Turkish and other foreign sources, but not from our own administration.
To Caren: I agree with you.. even though opening borders may be beneficial for the Armenians, the protocols are not strongly and confidently written and it could be closed anytime... however, these protocols that suppose to help Armenia, will not help Armenia in the long run.. not at all... and
To: Gary... if you think US helped these to help your ancestors and the future generation.. you are completly wrong.. US has nto done ANYTHING for nothing.. there is a gain for US for doing this.. They help those that will benefit them in the future.. They care less about Armenia.. Armenia is nothing to them.. so by acting like the peace loving, democratic beast is nothing but fake pretenses.. I despise that about this county.. they are all after their own gain.. regardless if the end result is destroying a nation and culture that were present for centuries.. by disrespecting all those who fight for what is right, and just.. unfortunately, US did nothing but helped the perpetrator to win this battle and use these protocols to win the WAR... trust me, Turkey will flood his roots into Armenia and will turqatsnel everything in our country.. That is exaclty what they wanted from the start..
G
Information on Armen Aivazian at www.hayq.org
Information about the lobby/think-tank of which he is the principal: www.ararat-center.org
People will immediately realize that he is the only nationalist voice that works as a united voice for the Armenians in the Diaspora and the Republic.
What if Turkey does not ratify the protocols?
Once it is is ratified, there is no question of its implementation of course.
One can be assured though, that though it may not have been worded in the protocols explicitly, unless there is a movement on the Karabag issue, there is no way it will be ratified by the Turkish parliament. I think all the parties are aware of this and it has been made abundantly clear.
What does a "movement" mean and who determines that, and when and how, etc, and plus the ratification gate leaves much room for maneuvre and that is entirely intentional.
Guess what, Murat, the protocols will be on the floor of your National Assembly next week. Meanwhile, Serge Sargsyan today clarified in an interview what subjects were were discussed with Aliev recently - the status of NKR and no word on territories. That is significant progress in the talks. You can continue to make abundantly clear to all parties, the fun to watch the rat race will be ours.
Arthur,
You keep on harping and trampolining on the "irresponsible bravado" while entertaining "Turkish reform due to international pressure" fantasies. What sort of nonsense is this? Since when is Turkey a follower of any international norm, and since when has Turkey honored any treaty or agreement? How many attempts at bolshevik style discrediting your opponents will it take for you to realize the bankruptcy of your position? There is no worse display of "irresponsible bravado" than to try to sell this Brooklyn Bridge of "'Turkish acquiescence to international pressure" nonsense! The important item here is the lowering the guard of the Armenian public, which is what you are doing, and which is the main and important point made by www.ararat-center.org and like minded think tanks. This is precisely the situation which destroyed our chances of indepdence in the past, and it is being repeated with "diplomatic dependency' nonsense. Just what is the problem with "experts" and their zeal to paint the "international community" as some sort of reliable "enforcer of justice?"
You said,
"Turkey may refuse to ratify and that will be in our interests and to our advantage."
Oh, no doubt I agree with you there. I don't think they will, and that's where we disagree. I hope you're the one who is correct, I truly do, but my hopes and expectations are radically different. I don't expect Turkey to give up on their ideologies and "under international diplomatic pressure, trioka champagne party promises" and so on abandon Azerbaijan as their little foot-hold colony on their way to Eurasia expansion.
We will continue. You can count on that.
Information on Aivazian does not disprove the fact - he was a member of the government in 1992 and he did not have integrity to leave it despite its manifest defeatist stance. Whatever he says and does today is short of coming up with realistic policy options. The challenge is not in preaching to the choir about Turkish belligerence. That is technical work. The adaptive challenge is in devising policy options which can contain and deter Turkey and advance our national interests. Serge Sargsyan should definitely now go to Bursa and use this opportunity to make yet again abundantly clear the Armenian positions regarding the document signed by Davutoglu. There is no word Karabakh in that document.
To Giorgi,
I don't even know where to start refuting your lies and misrepresentations. Just one point, however. Bolsheviks were not Russians. Speaking Russian does not make one a Russian, just like speaking English does not make one English. The majority of early Bolsheviks were Jews and the rest were a mix of Armenians, Georgians, Uzbeks, Russians, Chinese, etc... Russians were a tiny minority in the Bolshevik movement. Ethnic Russians (Christian/Slavs) suffered by far the most under the Bolsheviks. Communism became Russified as a result of the Second World War. And the reason why the Russian Empire withdrew its forces from within Anatolia in 1916, enabling the Turks to continue their genocide of Armenians was because of the success of the Western funded Bolshevik revolution. Nevertheless, had it not been for the Russian Empire, Armenian nationalistic organization would have never even been formed to begin with. Russian secret services played a great role in organizing and funding Armenia's independence movement in the late 19th century. Yes, later on there were some political problems between the Armenian revolutionaries and the Russian Czar, but from David Bek to the Artsakh liberation war Moscow was working with us Armenians behind the scenes.
Again, let's don't confuse Soviets/Bolsheviks with the Russian Federation/Czarits Russia, the two have different geopolitical interests. Had Russians not invaded the Caucasus two hundreds years ago Armenians today would still be living like Turks, Kurds or Persians.
To Aram
Let me get this straight, you are afraid that Armenians will warm to Turks if borders open? LOL! Your fear is us Armenians - not Turks. That is funny! Its like you not allowing one's wife in the company of men because one don't trust her... What an insult to us Armenians. Let me guess, you are an Armenian nationalist?
And another thing Aram jan, Moscow today already controls the Armenian military, the Armenian economy and Armenia's energy sector. Moscow defacto runs Armenia today. What's more, Moscow has mutilated Georgia, has driven out Western interests from the Caucasus and has Azerbaijan held hostage. Let's also remember that Moscow also has an alliance with Iran. Maybe one day you'll notice that Moscow today fully controls the Caucasus and it is Armenia's only lifeline.
Armenia and Artsakh are independent only in our dreams. The fact of the matter is, Armenia, a tiny, poor, resourceless land surrounded by enemies in the volatile Caucasus simply speaking 'cannot' be independent. Thank God that we serve the long term strategic interests of a regional superpower like Russia. Without a Russian presence in the Caucasus not even a million of our fedayees can stop the Caucasus from becoming a Turkic territory.
With Artsakh secured militarily (don't let western propaganda fool you Moscow will not force Armenia to give up the land), with Armenia secured militarily, open borders with Turkey can/will serve Armenia's long term interests by allowing it to become an integral part of the region's economic development. With Georgia out of the picture now and with serious problems in the Black Sea, Armenia has found itself in a very geostrategic position. This is what our officials, with Moscow's backing, are trying to exploit. Moscow has placed Armenia on center stage. So, instead of being narrow minded and hysterical let's do something about the future of our republic for once. I suggest you put aside your ideological dreams and see better Armenia's national interests.
This is the time for our diaspora to actively get involved in Armenia.
Wow, Murat. Where did you learn that? It is Turkey and Azerbaijan who occupy native Armenian soil. Turkey even falsely claims that what little remains of Armenia, Bulgaria and Cyprus is Turkish. The elephant in the room is the Pan-Turkist and racist ideology that is taught in Turkic schools.
To Hagop: I SECOND YOUR POST 100%...
I myself want to thank you misterTheriault for your indepth, clear and most detailed analysis I have read so far. For the average Joe, your article is easy enough to read and truly understand what goes on behind these so called protocols.. I read it and i got chills 1,000 times over because I see it in a better light.. even though I knew what was going on.. I needed someone with your expertise and writing capability to break it down for us..
I hope that people such as yourself will stand next to Armenians to fight and bring light to what is the truth and what is just..
Thank you again for taking the time and explaining your thoughts on this matter..
Well written article.. Excellent analysis..
"It is not enough for you to know because you claim to know too many things that in reality are based on an article or two. You asserted that they left the government over disagreements but you failed to produce any evidence. Papian did not leave the government of LTP who had gone much further in his ties with Turkey – meeting with Turkesh et al. and Aivazian was there at the time of recognition of Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity and he lacked integrity to walk out of that government. Case closed, unless you produce evidence of their disagreements with LTP policies while in service."
Quite frankly, the case is not closed because there is no case to begin with. it is a total irrelevancy of whether they were breastfed or if they drank coffee with Ter Petrosyan and enjoyed it. You're trying to turn discussion of issues into a "who's who" circus, and I truly don't give a damn. For this reason, I will not do further research on this to verify my scant knowledge of "personalities and their former associations and loyalties" (which, your bomabardments are false anyhow) nor attempt to justify the perfectly logical and realistic position that Turkey is a belligerent enemy and Turkey's position is that of beneficiary of this "no precondition" clause. Armenians are preset losers in this scenario, and the so-called "Troika" is a capitulating Russia, an impotent EU, and, when it concerns "pressuring Turkey" an equally impotent US. They are only "potent" when it concerns pressuging little Armenia by first and foremost dividing Armenians of Diaspora with those of the Republic. Your constact blarings about "irresponsible bravado due to not caring about Armenia" is a propaganda ploy to divide Armenians, and it also falls precisely in line with the anti-Diasporan propaganda initiated by Ter Petrosyan and continued with all successive administrations, less so during Kocharian in relative, I stress, relative terms. You will fail to discredit all diaspora opposition on such prejudiced grounds, and I will not abandon my position on this.
I have refrained from responding during these last few days due to the nature of what in the best case can be called an irrational disagreement and in the worst, a massive inability to comprehend the difference between unsubstantiated personal opinion and analysis, and between diplomatic realities and apocalyptica. I was hoping somebody might be interested in a serious discussion. I don’t want to sound as if I am lecturing, but I am not left with much alternative.
One simply need take a look at a sample from the Turkish nationalist press, such as: http://www.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/haberdetay.php?hit=24460 (and in crude translation into English)
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=tr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr%2Fhaberdetay.php%3Fhit%3D24460 and note the amazing similarity in apocalyptic tone in both Turkish and Armenian rejectionist positions.
We live in a real world, not an imaginary one where we can wish the world stopped so we can re-group, think and act, then restart. Frankly, it is shocking how anyone can read a 15-page paper that attempts to explain the lead-up to the Protocols and then ask what difference does 20 years make? My only conclusion is that some people simply have a knee-jerk reaction to such events and reject any reasonable explanation (not a justification) because it simply doesn’t fit their hopes. Exclusivity actually exists between any post-Protocol fear and an explanation of how that Protocol came to be, but even that does not fit a NeoCon-esque arrogance that demands, “hey -- either you have to state you are against the Protocol or else.” The issue is, and has been stated many times in this forum, if one opposes the Protocols, what do you have in its place? No, is not acceptable. The ability to say no, walk away, and say the hell with Turkey until it begs forgiveness, would require Armenia have the equivalent of a million man army, a nuclear weapons deployment capability, ability to blackmail world leaders, just to name a few characteristics. It would behoove anybody to read some of the diplomatic maneuvering Armenia appears to have accomplished, as noted by Arthur Martirosyan, rather than to hope George Friedman is infallible. Just because Armenia may not have centuries of diplomatic successes to point to does not means it does not exist today. Diplomatic success can as fleeting as are military secrets and have to be used and built upon. It would be an absolute disgrace if any success is ignored for partisan reasons.
This Protocol did not simply fall out of the sky, but it was the result of at least a five year long process. One could ask zero sum rejectionists why Turkish-Armenian talks were not important 4,3,2, or even a year ago, but then that would be asking for an explanation of a policy that never existed.
I will not be responding to any comments that are typical of incorrigible, zero sun rejectionists.
Finally, I do want to commend the Armenian Weekly for running my analytic piece given the current atmosphere.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Nalbandyan, you can continue your exercises in sophistry they won't add anything to policy analysis. I presented facts and you are not able to disprove facts. The issue is not on who Aivaizian and Papian drank coffee with or who breastfed them. The issue is on their stance in critical for Armenia periods. If they have any policy recommendations today, alternative to the current line, they had many opportunities to present those. It is not enough to state that Turkey is bloodthirsty and belligerent. Not enough to say why the protocols are bad, although they have not produced a single coherent argument re where the damage to the national interests are. Nor have you. All or nothing stance is not an answer, it is a path to national disaster. All we have heard from you is Russians are capitulating, Europeans and Americans are impotent - and only Hagop Nalbandyan is holding the line to defend the Armenian nation. That line, however, is in your living room.
If you are looking for anti-diasporan stance I can redirect you to your buddy Boyajian who never stops ranting about unworthy Haystantsis or to the same Aivazian who in his recent research on the Armenian identity came to conclude that millions of Armenians who are not fluent in Armenian should not be considered Armenians. And why go that far? Your own statements here are nothing but divisive. The new dividing line is between virtuous fighters against protocols and "traitor" Sargsyan and paid agents who are supportive of the protocols. After that you dare to moan about dividing lines...
Turkey today is between a rock and a hard place. Erdogan starts the morning by saying that Turkey will ratify the protocols and ends the day by saying they won't... And yet you continue to claim that they have won. This is a typical loser syndrome. I am sure that no matter what facts and arguments I present I won't be able to persuade you. The primary path for persuasion is rational, your stance is emotional. If you need to have the last word, I could not care less. It is important for you because you are writing here not to present rational arguments but to show off to your own clique, to demonstrate to them how skilled and knowledgeable you are. They may as well give you a cardboard medal of honor for that. This won't help the Armenian cause -- the logical end of it is nasty at the time when Armenians need to be united not against but for.
The diaspora was silent because the “protestors” were calling for a known foreign operative to become president again. The perception by the diaspora was that Sargsyan was the lesser of two evils. Now, however, we see that Ter Petrosyan’s attempt coup was apparently a great leveraging tool by Turkey’s allies to pressure a delegitimized Sargsyan to either capitulate and agree to the Protocols or lose his presidency. He of course, lacking any moral fiber, refused to abandon his tenure as president and sold out. The protestors of February-March actually did more to bring about this situation than the president himself.
Wow -- that was sad and disgusting. THIS is exactly the type of rhetoric that I can't seem to fit into my head, especially knowing that this garbage is spewed and believed by some in the upper tier of the ARF. Blaming the protestors? Really? I don't remember you guys blaming Vazgen and his supporters for undermining Levon during the Kharabagh negotiations. So...the government rigged the elections, and the people shouldn't have protested so as to not undermine this bandocracy? Poor Serzhik. Those mean protestors said bad things about him!
You guys seem to be following the same pattern the Turkish government follows. Refusing to admit you made a mistake, denying it, and then, when all else fails, justifying it. Cool!
Mr. Theriault — how refreshing to finally have somebody who acknowledges that, at the very least, we are making a legitimate point. I thank you. As for what you said however: ”Henry Dumanian, I appreciate your response. To clarify, I did not say that Abisoghom explicitly argued that ARF people have no right to speak against the protocols because of past support for Sarkisian. I said that his post “suggests” this. I think a fairly straight-forward reading of his post supports this interpretation: he is suggesting that the ARF is an illegitimate critic now because it did not oppose Sarkisian before. My point is that that past history imposes an obligation to try to fix the problems that have resulted.” — Point taken. I would like to add, however, that the issue I raised was that Hamparian is guilty of doing things he is shunning other people (like me) for doing now — until the ARF addresses this hypocrisy honestly and truthfully it cannot, in fact, move forward and continue to address the current problems with any effective measure of force or legitimacy. “As a question, I was wondering where I could go for more information about the massacre you discuss. I was aware of arrests and beatings of opposition activists, but did not know that there was widespread killing.” — You can view the human rights ombudsman’s report ON the official government report regarding March 1 (in which he accusses of them deflating the number of people killed — note, although it would be helpful of reading his own report on March 1, I am specifically referring to his report ON the government report). And also, you can look to how the people of Armenia (and arguably even the government) refer to March 1 with almost the same tone and scourn that the words “April 24″ recieve. It is considered a massacre, and at the core of a huge chain of oppressive measures including the usual beating and intimidation, to sporadic murders and assasinations. Americans live in a post-9/11 world, the peopl of Armenia live in a post-March 1 world. I have repeatedly stressed how important it is to understand how the events of March 1 play in to the psyche of the inhabitants of Armenia. And, regarding my “assumption that the protocols will ensure that Armenia will prosper.”I never suggested that the opening of the boarder will give Armenia prosperity (at least not in the short term, but definitely not under the terms outlined in the protocols). I was only suggesting that such a position by the ARF would be along the lines of the position they had on March 2nd — admitting the faults, but choosing to work within the framework already set for the greater good. No?
Dear David et al,
While I am not at all against full diplomatic relations (on the contrary, this is a necessity, in my opinion), I do have reservations about the impact of agreement to a "historical commission." As anyone calling themselves either an academic or a historian should know, the facts of genocide are not up for negotiation. Clearly, academia has done exhaustive studies on this subject. What is now eminently clear through scholarship is not up for grabs. I'm certain you must agree with this. May I point out that already *some* news stories are back to presenting this issue as if it's just a dispute between Turkey and Armenians. Thankfully, the New York Times article was a bit better than this. CNN, however, was not! I am afraid this is an immediate impact of this part of the protocol.
As for the rest of my questions which I have raised above, I wish you would direct an answer. Even if you think I am alarmist or want to put me in any other camp, I must suggest that the form of a question and not a diatribe begs for polite dialogue and discussion. I can understand frustration, but this is not an easy subject! We should all learn the discipline of dialogue. It's in our collective best interest, no matter what.
yours,
Janine
PS I don't doubt that my questions might be silly or trivial or just that I am too worried. But still, it's worth thinking about them or answering them. At least, I might learn something and others too, and help think through these issues.
Dr. Theriault,
I commend you for your eloquence. I hope that your words will enable those in positions of influence to act appropriately, as we have yet to see them do.
Very Respectfully,
Toros Asadourian
The divisive attacks yet again begin. As the matter of fact Sargsyan must be compensating well for these services. Who knows what's in it for all involved.
Martirosyan, when I say Turkey is the experienced enemy in the game of imperialism, if pretend you don't believe me, then go out into the world and live beyond your articles, papers, so-called "sources" and see that what I say is irrefutable with regards to pro-Turkish factionalism that has taken root in the US academia, in US big business circles, in US political science schools.
"No preconditions" means a sorry status quo for Armenians. I don't give a damn about Turks and their pretentious "apocalyptic" circus drag. Aren't these the same hysterical distortionists, liars who claim that Armenians committed genocide, what was that number, again 2.5 million Muslims (and Jews to boot) with an army of 40k half-trained half-starved troops, no munition supply, and hardly any government support? What makes you think they will not copycat Armenians to confuse on that grade asd well? They have multimillion dollars at their disposal with many hours to spare on spinning a tale.
I have said more than enough for a non-agent to comprehend, and yet we have this tenacity in flipping the accusation against those who oppose this, in fact, disastrous set of protocols. We have been over this, and I don't mind at all that I have to rephrase, repeat, reduce, praes, preprase, expand, induce, deduce, whatever it takes to couteract your pro-Sargsyan propaganda pretending to be a neuetral and practical position. Your position is that of diplomatic fancy and fantasy. It is based on faith (contemplative fantasy) in systems that deserve none and instances of "diplomatic accountability" and consequent corrections in behavior that do not, have not, and will not exist. Turkey has not every honored a single treaty or agreement with Armenia, and this is not the time for the to start.
OK. As the devil's reluctant advocate, since you are the "win-win and think positively" Deepak Chopra style cruiser here, let's have it, one instance where the US was able to pressure Turkey into carrying forth its "ally's duties and responsibilities." You may not like Boyadjian, which is a credit to that individual in any case, but not liking him will not erase the issues he brings oftentimes: Turkey is not a reliable US ally, nor does Turkey succumb to US pressure at critical times. It would be foolhardy to gamble on Russia's "reliability" as well based on the fluffy "hydrocarbon shuffle" song above. As the matter of fact Turkish "threats" have effectively shot down the Genocide Resolution in successive attempts, which is a sign of impotence, impotence of this 'superpower" whose diplomatic capital also has been long ago expended in that part of the world.
Also, if by "policy analysis" you refer to the "protocol analysis" you have been promising for the last 50 hours, then, by all means, if you can convince, not with the flimsy fluff you have provided so far, but instead with concrete analysis of the protocols, then I am listening. Instead, you have bantered around personality profiling and other bolshevik style nonsense.
You are also still believing the theatrics by Erdogan and Aliev. What else is there to say except, if this is the level expertise we are entitled to at this moment, then it's time to close these schools down!
Come on, let's see it, 10 bullet points on how the protocols will neuter pan-Turkism.
Davidian, I beg to differ. Neo-con-esque? is this the level we're at? First it was Milosevic doomsday "countdown Belgrade" story and now its the "Neo-con-esque behavior" analogy? Another failure, it is, I say. The refusal to the protocols is not a sign of belligenerce, but pragmatism. The entire negotatiation process of the protocols is a sign of autocratic behavior, and last time I checked, the neo-cons conducted the war business without consulting congress for a formal declaration. In other words, Sargsyan's "tuatha" is the best example of a neo-con faction there is. The accusations of enforcement should not be on you, no, and if that has been the impression, then it is the wrong impression. Same with Martirosyan, except that he is using spinsterism and sophistry to weave the opposite tale from that of reality. You, perhaps under the influence, a DUI situation of a sort, decided to use a backwards analogy. Be careful of such bouts of isopraxis. We need to think things out of the box, as that is always how the imperialists think. They work hard to create a situation where your own state becomes your own enemy. We should not fall for that game.
Janine, when there is undue concession, then there is also doubt, and doubt is enough to distrort the drag on the recognition and eventually trivial the historical, political, economic, and emotional signifance of the genocide. This has already been partly accomplished. Now, we have yet another msterful delaying tactic to drag this "fight" for another couple of generations. This is to be a "Commission" composed of what? Everyone is asking, and no one is getting explicity answers. Yet the answer is obvious. The modus operandi of the Turkish state have not changed one inch, and, as the matter of fact, while these negotiations are going on, the Turkic side has been engaged in anti-Armenian rhetoric and activity without rest. They have in fact renewed the education. read above about the 12 DVD where Armenians are depicted as genocide perpetrations as part of compulsory education. Is this the sign of a negotiating party for peace? The Armenian side is appeased, long ago, with the anti-nationalist foundations lain down by Ter Petrosyan, and nothing of the belligerent anti-Turkish sort can be hears from the state media on the Armenian side. As the matter of fact, many average Armenians have been brainwashed to believe that Turkey is a friendly neighbor. In that context, what do you think will happen to genocide education and recognition? In any case, for details of this Turko-Armenian conflict that has never ceased, I would recommend you go to www.ararat-center.org and see it all in grueling detail.
I meant to say "eventually trivialize" above.
oh, yeah, i meant 12 million DVDs. Sorry
BRAVO William Schabas... Thank you so very much for sending that letter ..
You are definitely much appreciated.
Gayane
Let me ask again: Was it really necessary to agree to a joint historical commission on the genocide? Let's assume that the commission, after years of hot air and giving Armenians heart attacks and strokes, winds up OK for Armenians. (Which I doubt. The commission will arrive at a split decision, at best).
Still, what is the point - to roll the dice? To have yet one more study on the genocide? To give Turks a platform to claim that it was Armenians who rebelled, Armenians who did the killing, Armenians who had the revolutionary parties, Armenians who went over to the Russian side, and Armenians who stepped on a Turk's toe? Will Bernard Lewis and Justin McCarthy appear before the commission and make news that the Wall Street Journal will trumpet? Must be all be subjected to this? Why?
The Armenian government has not done a good job on the genocide issue for nearly 20 years. It has been silent when there have been fights over it in foreign legislatures. Turks have not been silent. Armenia's silence tells us that it is probably incompetent to be part of a joint commission.
Did Armenia cave in on this vital issue all by itself or was it pushed by Turkey, the EU, and wonderful/good/loyal/pro-Christian friend Russia?
Another long and meaningless piece from Nalbandyan. Nobody, in this forum any way, needs your stories about Turkey. Much as your teacher you probably think that you are the best expert on Turkey. The question is not about how really bad the imperialist Turkey is. The question is what policy options you, the greatest political scientist and Boyadjian the greatest historian on Turkish-American relations, are proposing beyond the knee-jerk no? I think you are not able to understand this simple question to say nothing of responding. The protocols are not designed to neuter pan-Turkism therefore your expectations are false. If the world is going where Friedman has convinced you it is, what are you proposing to do? To wait out in the mountains behind the walls of the monastery?
As to seeing the world, Nalbandyan, you make me laugh again. Have you seen the world behind your suburbia? I am not for win win - it is the stupidest thing I have read from you. Nor am I for Isfahan bazarchis approach to international politics. I am for maximizing value and gains at the table, making sure that a yes can only be said when the option at the table is better than my best walkaway alternatives. For a couple of days now I cannot hear from you or from your cohorts - what are Armenia's alternatives, i.e. what is Armenia going to do if the President listens to you and says no to Americans, Russians and Europeans? What are they going to do? These questions never crossed your mind. You would not care if Armenian soldiers on the front line in Karabakh do not get new weapons, nor would you care if Armenia were to bury the new nuclear plant project. These things are not important for you and Boyadjian. The main thing is that you know that Turkey is dangerous and protocols are to be blamed...
Now, sit back and read the headlines of today's news, Nalbandyan. Here are some that may interest you, if they won't, I must say I am sick and tired of your constant moaning about the imminent end of the world.
President of Azerbaijan has decided to decrease investments in the Georgian railroad ...
Ilham Aliev is not happy with the outcome of negotiations in Kishnev
Wary of the Armenia-Turkey normalization Georgia is ready to re-open the Upper Lars
Sargsyan and Medvedev are discussing military cooperation in Moscow
Gudkov thinks that Armenia can become a nuclear power one day
Finally, study Armenian and make sure yours is on a Yerevantsi's level because otherwise you may not be considered Armenian along with several million other Armenians by Aivazian.
We must not rest 'till we get our land back and all the pain we suffured heeled. Turkey must admit to the crime of Armenians.
Well said Avetis jan!
I find it ironic too that a number of those who are against the protocols have never been to Armenia or Artsakh.
Janine,
Your questions are well placed. The commission is the weakest point of the protocols. One way to deal with the ambiguous language is to add reservations at the time of ratification in the parliament - the timeline, modalities and binding outcomes should be part of the language.
Dear Dee,
You asked, "Did Armenia cave in on this vital issue all by itself or was it pushed by Turkey, the EU, and wonderful/good/loyal/pro-Christian friend Russia?"
In all honesty, I thought that "wonderful/good/loyal/pro-Christian" will be followed by the United States. Did not Hillary Clinton respond to the angry letter from Ken Hachikyan? Did he write a letter to President Obama, starting with "How you dare...?", after all, he is your president.
You are also speculating, "Let’s assume that the commission, after years of hot air and giving Armenians heart attacks and strokes, winds up OK for Armenians."
Let's assume the damn protocols were not there. Let's assume that there'd be no commission. Can I ask you how and where do you think this will end? Most countries on planet earth recognize it was a genocide by year 20.. Even American President does that every year. What's next in your book?
Thanks to both Arthur and Hagop for your replies to me.
I'm going to very generally characterize arguments here in a very broad way: it seems there are two forms of discussion of protocols that fall into the following dimensions --
1. focuses on the fact that Turkey and allies are not necessarily happy about this, and the potential "losses" on that side
2. focuses on potential losses to Armenia, and to the interests (hard-gained interests, at that) of the diaspora
Perhaps we could begin to weigh the two against each other?
I will say that given the ultra-nationalist ideology in Turkey, any idea of compromise is probably looked at as some form of defeat by a significant part of the population. On the other hand, the modus operandi seems to be via aggression: an illegal blockade (Armenia), an illegal occupation (Cyprus), a denial of history -- and then bargain to lift the aggression. These are tactics of bullying and bargaining from a bully position - including arm twisting of powerful lobbying groups in the US such as corporations who wish to do business in the country.
Also, I may be completely off-base here, but it is my impression that there is a mentality at work in the culture (and not absent from other countries but in other more subtle forms) that somehow dictates that "proper behavior" is to sweep "bad" things under the rug -- a lie in the service of a good image of "the group" iis a proper thing. In Turkey, even the notion of a separate minority identity is historically suspect. So it's some sort of "bad behavior" to tell the truth when it's awful or casts a bad light on "the group." I think this is part of the reality of nationalist ideology in Turkey. I think this cultural attitude allows laws to continue as "normal' that criminalize discussion of minority identity and crime such as the Armenian genocide. I have indeed read comments on books about the genocide from Turks born in Eastern Anatolia who deplore that they know people who privately will admit to or even brag of bloody horrific deeds (perhaps committed by relatives) in the genocide and at the same time publicly and hotly declare no such thing ever happened. If indeed, a "truth commission" could actually work to "save face" and tell the truth in such a situation, I'd be practically shocked but open to hearing how it was possible given how difficult a road Pamuk and Akcam and others continue to tread.
I am not an expert on politics. I can't necessarily comment on how a small nation like Armenia should operate against a bully. As a Christian, however, my concern is with truth and justice and peace. In the long run, peace doesn't come at the expense of the other two: it is the fulfillment of the other two.
My bottom line is that I will not forget what my grandparents went through and step on them as the rest of the world would like to do. I at least have to stand up for something when it comes to my own people. I do the same for others who have suffered similar and less repression and outrage. I don't stand for lies in far less brutal and savage situations that don't quite engage the entire huge topic of man's inhumanity to man and the greatest crimes known to the world. In that respect, the fact that the diaspora (and now finally thousands in Armenia) have raised a fuss about this historical issue has given us an opportunity for more public discussion and attention to this issue. I think that's a good thing. I believe we should continue to protest to our government that we wish the US and especially President Obama to fulfill his promise and moral obligation to acknowledge history, especially given American involvement in relief efforts at the time of the genocide.
Does Dr Murat take into account the Hamidian massacres of 1893-96 in purveying his skewed statistics? Does he not want to pretend to be fair and admit that a) they were designed to produce the sort of demographic results that he now quotes as given?; and b) they helped to produce those results and Armenians (at least according to official Hamidian-Ottoman statistics) were no longer a majority in what had been Armenia (the 6 Vilayets) for 3 millennia? Let me remind Dr Murat that 300,000 Armenians were massacred during this period and a huge number also fled to Russian Armenia to save their skins. In any case from 1870s an active Hamidian policy of double and treble taxation of the Armenian peasantry and lawlessness (Kurds were licensed to do with Armenian honour and property as they pleased) was deliberately designed to "encourage" Armenians to leave the 6 Armenian Vilayets and many did. So your statistics were produced by deliberate and designed massacres compunded by further Ottoman manipulations of the figures since even after the massacres Armenians were still in majority in most of those Vilayets. Hence for example Muslims v Armenians rather than Kurds and Turks v "Christians" which would in some cases have included Greeks and Assyrians, etc.
Good job Mr. Schabas, with the help of International Association of Genocide Scholars the "commision" should be formed, and help Turkey accept the Armenian Genocide.
"First it was Milosevic doomsday “countdown Belgrade” story"
Wrong, Nalbandyan. It was the story of Miloshevich's miscalculation of the Yugoslav alternatives away from the table based on his all or nothing stance, exactly what you "pragmatically" are recommending Armenia to do. Say no, come what may. A new definition of pragmatism. Now that you have read one article on Miloshevich, "the nationalist", can I tell you something in Serbian?
"The refusal to the protocols is not a sign of belligenerce, but pragmatism. The entire negotatiation process..."
I bet, Nalbandyan, that the only international negotiations you have ever attended were the purchase of tomatoes from a bazarchi in Isfahan. You really crack me up, a negotiation process expert...
On Turkey possibly not ratifying you wrote, Nalbandyan (Is the Minister your relative?) ...
"Oh, no doubt I agree with you there. I don’t think they will, and that’s where we disagree. "
You agree or disagree? I say, chances are 50\50 and we are gaining in either case. More if they don't. If they do, what will remain from Ilham's alternatives away from the table?
"I hope you’re the one who is correct, I truly do, but my hopes and expectations are radically different."
You are a radical man, why not uphold radical views... I did not say that Turkey will not ratify, I only said it is probable, Erdogan is digging deeper in the hole and there may be no face saving for him.
So what are your dreams and hopes then:
"I don’t expect Turkey to give up on their ideologies and “under international diplomatic pressure, trioka champagne party promises” and so on abandon Azerbaijan as their little foot-hold colony on their way to Eurasia expansion."
Were you quoting someone, by the way? OK. You should join the league of political forecasting. Bursasport fans were unhappy today. They were not allowed to use Azerbaijani flags during Turkey-Armenia football game and decided to sing Sari Gelin instead on Wednesday... But still, what is it that you are proposing to do, assuming for a split second that you are the modern day Nostrafriedmanus? Really, pragmatically speaking? What should any Armenian think\do listening to your doom and gloom - Armenia has no allies, America and Europe are impotent, Russia is capitulating? Sell the apartment and leave for LA, I guess...
Dear friends,
The only good is going to come out of the signing of the protocols is for the United States and its Allies. Mark my words; I give Armenia 10 years to start selling businesses in Armenia to our lifelong enemies (the Turks).
90% of all Armenians living in Armenia today they don't care who is buying their factories and where is their food coming from. The country is already being sold to the highest bidder, watch and see what is going to happen once the border opens.
Imagine an Armenian going to work everyday in Armenia only to be getting a joke of a check from some firm whose headquarters are in Ankara.
Good Luck My fellow Armenians God bless us all.
Dear Janine,
Let me clarify my position to avoid misunderstanding. I could not care less about Turkish unhappiness. It would be in fact wrong to think that we have gained only because they think they have lost. My arguments are around tangible gains in this process.
1. Armenia enters a direct process mediated by Switzerland, a country that has formally recognized the genocide. The protocols do not preclude continuation of the recognition process. The end goal of this process is recognition by Turkey. It is not going to be easy but probability is higher than otherwise. Those aspiring justice rendered by “the international community” sooner or later would face the same dilemma.
2. Turkey opens the border and both countries establish diplomatic relations. This beats the Turkish pre-condition that these actions can only be taken depending on the outcome of the Karabakh settlement. These processes have been effectively decoupled. The opening of the border does not immediately imply economic gains or losses. Policy options will need to be carefully weighed in to protect certain sectors of the Armenian economy. Having another border opened in addition to volatile Georgian and Iranian borders is obviously a gain. However, it will yet need to materialize in a series of additional agreements. Needless to say, this improves Armenia's alternative to any deal re Karabakh and weakens the Azeri second best alternative, isolation and blockade of Armenia.
3. Ratification with appropriate reservations on modalities of the historical sub-commission and conditions for exiting the protocols will contain Turkey’s military options and firmly channel the process within Turkey’s EU aspirations. The so called new Ottomanism is an alternative to EU. Ultimately, the scenario where Turkey may reject the EU accession path cannot be ruled out. However, as long as Turkey is on that path there are numerous additional opportunities to exploit.
Thank you for your take on the Turkish bullying behavior. This time it simply did not work. I share your concerns about the commission and have already stated what can be done to stay on track. Most importantly, the protocols cannot preclude the process of recognition. Nor anyone can tell you or me what we and our forthcoming generations can or cannot remember. You are absolutely right - the Armenian community needs to continue efforts at recognition by president Obama. His recognition should be based on what he knows and thinks about the matter. And he knows enough as a lawyer and a fellow human to conclude that it was a genocide. As Akcam stated recently there is more than enough evidence that it was a genocide no matter what Turks may have to say or present.
This commission should be turned into the moment of truth where the entire world again will be shown that Turkey has no leg to stand on this issue. We can do it.
Janine asked:
"Dear David et al,
While I am not at all against full diplomatic relations (on the contrary, this is a necessity, in my opinion), I do have reservations about the impact of agreement to a “historical commission.”
OK
"As anyone calling themselves either an academic or a historian should know, the facts of genocide are not up for negotiation."
There are some Turkish and surrogate historians that disagree. They are in the minority, however.
"Clearly, academia has done exhaustive studies on this subject."
It is not an exhaustive study, a lot more can be done. But what exists now is more than enough to show genocidal intent.
"What is now eminently clear through scholarship is not up for grabs."
OK
"I’m certain you must agree with this. May I point out that already *some* news stories are back to presenting this issue as if it’s just a dispute between Turkey and Armenians. Thankfully, the New York Times article was a bit better than this. CNN, however, was not! I am afraid this is an immediate impact of this part of the protocol."
I fail to see how media spin has any effect on the historical commission. There were decades of media spin before the TARC commission declared it was genocide. There were decades of media spin before, during, and after government after government, internationally, began officially recognizing the fact of genocide. If you can tell us how the media has already influenced this part of the Protocol, I can respond.
"As for the rest of my questions which I have raised above, I wish you would direct an answer. Even if you think I am alarmist or want to put me in any other camp, I must suggest that the form of a question and not a diatribe begs for polite dialogue and discussion. I can understand frustration, but this is not an easy subject! We should all learn the discipline of dialogue. It’s in our collective best interest, no matter what."
OK
-David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
TO: THOMAS.. I hate to say this but you are absolutely correct in saying that Armenia will no longer feel, taste, look and be Armenia in 10 years... It is unfortunate that our people living in Armenia dont' care anymore.. THey are solid cold toward what happens to the country because they lost hope, their belief in their govt and the only thing on their mind is to feed their family with nothing money that they get from the govt. Their survival is the main priority and they will just go with the flow.. unfortunately we went with the flow for toooo long and that is why we are in this situation..bayts de inch karanq anenq? The govt dont' respond to our pleas, they dont' respond to the dissapproval of the things the govt does.. They basically treat us like nobodies..why? why such a non responsive attitude from our govt? There has to be a hidden agenda to all this. there has to be..I feel sick into my stomach when I remember what just happened and what will happen..
God be with us.. and God knows that I will fight until the end.. no matter what.. and hope our people will do too.. DON"T GIVE UP..
G
The so called protocols have been signed by Armenia under DURESS! Any agreement or dcocument signed under duress or coerce is unenforceable.
Armenian must file complaint in a forum that has proper jurisdiction on the case to declare the said agreement unlawful and unconstitutional thereby to set aside.
Raffi, where is your legal power?
Long Live Armenia and Armenians!
Shame on Pres. Serz Sarkisian, his Foreign Minister, & his Parliament for allowing these protocols to be signed with the Genocidal Turks. Demonstrations for his removal must be instituted and a rejection on these illegal protocols that the Armenians worldwide demonstated against. Turkey has done Genocides & Massacres not only against Armenians but Greeks, Assyrians, Bulgarians, Kurds, etc. since they conquered Asia Minor, European countries, Nothern Africa, the Middle East from 1064 A.D. to the present. Millions have moslemized or driven out of their historic homelands. The World Nations along with the United Nations must wake up to reality. The European Union does not want Turkey in that union because of its past Genocidal attrocities & human rights violations. Armenians in the Diaspora must put pressure on the Armenian Government now before it is too late, if it isn't too late already. Stephen T. Dulgarian
The Armenian Genocide has been studied to death for the past 94 years. We should move to the reparation stage NOW. The provision in the protocols having to do with the historical commission means absolutely nothing; it is just a ploy by Turkey to postpone acknowledging the Genocide. We should completely ignore it and move to legal means for reparations. Armenia can agree to as many historical commissions that it wants. They are only meant as distractions, and we should purposefully go to the opposite direction and sue now. What we lost during the Genocide are personal properties, murdered relatives, and lost identities and legacies. It is noone's business but ours to sue for damages.
Janine asked:
"I’m going to very generally characterize arguments here in a very broad way: it seems there are two forms of discussion of protocols that fall into the following dimensions –
1. focuses on the fact that Turkey and allies are not necessarily happy about this, and the potential “losses” on that side
2. focuses on potential losses to Armenia, and to the interests (hard-gained interests, at that) of the diaspora
Perhaps we could begin to weigh the two against each other?"
Have you have read my analysis? I ask this because of the level you have characterized the discussion. If you have not read that article you are at disadvantage. I could simply quote from my paper to respond in this comment, but I won’t.
I would suggest moving the discussion to a higher level. If the “discussion of Protocols“ is not raised a notch higher we will get nowhere. This is because there are interests that are more powerful than the ones you suggest we limit ourselves to.
In any negotiation there is give and take, understanding and protecting your own interests and understanding those of the opposing party. However, this Protocol is not like a divorce case. On the international scene, there are forces that can trump the perceived interests of either or both parties. Who is happy and who is sad makes no difference.
In order to identify what is a loss or a gain, one has to look at what interests were protected and what demands were sustained or conceded. This is somewhat simplistic, but good enough for discussion.
Keeping in mind that the international conditions that resulted in the signing of this Protocol may not have been possible two years ago and may not be possible again:
* For at least the past five years or so, Turkey has demanded that Armenia pull its forces out of Nagorno-Karabakh and surrounding provinces before any discussion can go forward regarding Turkey lifting its blockade of Armenia.
* For over five years Turkey has asked Armenia to denounce any land claims it has against Turkey. This is actually a moot point since Armenia has never made official land claims against Turkey.
* For over five years Turkey has demanded that Armenia end support for the international recognition of the genocide.
* And for five years, Turkey has proposed a joint historical commission be setup to discuss the claims of genocide.
For the past several years there has been a confluence of outcome (to quote from my paper) between the US, the EU, and Russia, and Russia and Turkey regionally. As result, enormous pressure was put on both Turkey and Armenia to sit and talk. The result:
* Turkey was not able to couple this Protocol with continued talks concerning Nagorno-Karabakh
* Turkey was not able to couple this Protocol with a demand that Armenia renounce any land claims
* Turkey was not able to couple this protocol with treaties that resulted in Turkey’s border with Armenia.
* Turkey was not able to force Armenia to end its support for continued international genocide recognition
* Turkey was able to negotiate an historical commission
* Armenia will have it’s border open (whatever that may eventually evolve into) within a specified time period.
* Armenia and Turkey will establish diplomatic relations.
As a result of this Protocol process, Armenia was able to alienate Azerbaijan from Turkey, reducing Azerbaijan’s negotiation options over NK. Turkey can turn to the EU and report it has one more border issue resolved as part of the EU ascension process.
Do all these diplomatic positives for Armenia mean we reduce our demands and our vigilance? Not for a second. For example, Turkey tried to “pull a fast one” on Armenia at the signing, but Armenia held to its interests.
Does Armenia have more options now with this Protocol (if ratified) than without it, yes. Some of them are:
* A stronger negotiating stance supporting Nagorno-Karabakh
* Georgia talking about re-opening formerly closed border transit routes between Russia and Armenia and has floated recognizing the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians.
* Armenia has greatly reduced Georgia’s ability of coupling of its transit corridor monopoly to neglecting the normal demands of Javakhk Armenians
* Armenia has a document to take to international courts if its tenets have been violated by Turkey, if the combination of the EU, US, and Russia are not enough. Considering the level of international presence at the Protocol signing, this was a significant event.
* There will be more international grants and loans on their way.
* Armenia can sit down with the Turks and present their genocide case with the EU+US+Russia watching
* If Turkey violates articles or drags out any process unreasonably, the threat of further international recognition exists.
* Armenia has shown it can hold its own diplomatically by demonstrating it.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
I am wondering if, as some people in Armenia say, Diasporan Armenians should have no right to express strong opinions about the protocols, or really have any "say" about political events in Armenia, then why do Armenians in Armenia have the apparent right to do the same thing for Karabagh?
I see people who are commenting above and also on other blogs who live in Armenia but not Karabagh but who are expressing all sorts of opinions on Karabagh. You notice the double-standard.
Armenia itself is even conducting negotiations on behalf of Karabagh while Karabagh begs to be a direct participant (and I don't mean simply a party that is "consulted"). You see, some Hayastantsis think that they can bully Diasporans with nasty taunts like "you don't live here", but are putting themselves in a position to dictate what happens to Karabagh. I am not talking about any one individual but rather just in general. And please don't tell me that Armenia supports Karabagh with money etc. The Diaspora supports Armenia to the tune of billions of dollars and lobbying support throughout North America and Europe.
Russia is dictating to Serge how to negotiate and what to negotiate, and the Hayastantsis are passing that pressure along to Karabagh. I am sure that Karabagh is not happy about this. I think perhaps Karabagh wishes Armenia would buzz off but Karabagh can't say that because Armenia has Karabagh over a barrel. But mainly I am just wondering about the mean-spirited double-standards of some Hayastantsis. Again, if diasporans should not have a say in Armenia, then Armenia should not have a say in Karabagh. I think people recognize the hypocrisy.
David, thanks for your reply.
But, I think you have what I said backwards: I said that the protocols including a historical commission has in fact influenced the way the media reports on the genocide - not the other way around. We are once again back to the presentation by some media outlets that the Armenian Genocide is a "dispute" between two parties. It seems to me that the historical commission has in fact set us back in this respect.
To Professor Theriault:
my hat goes off to you for showing that what's taking place on the Turkish front makes neither practical nor theoretical sense.
To those who don't think "all-or-nothing" ever works:
remember: (1) the battle for Zangezur 1919-1921, (2) demonstrations of 1965 in Yerevan, and (3) the war for Artsakh's independence . I am sure your type would have found something irrational/impossible in all three of these events. Who are you--or who is SS for that matter--to tell my grand grandfather (who fought alongside Garegin Njdeh in 1919 to see Zangezur reunited with Armenia), my father (who as a young demonstrator had to taste the power of soviet water cannons to see the Tsitsernakaberd memorial built), and me/my generation (who made the sacrifices necessary to see Artakh be independent) that this is where it's going to stop? ...that bending is the only way forward, and that we are all stupid enough to think that trade is a necessary condition for development in the 21st century? Guess what---what you are saying doesn't make sense. It never did. So be prepared to retreat and re-write your story accordingly. Actions of a small number of desperate political opportunists in Yerevan have served us all a major wake up call. While we missed the call that sounded on March 1-2, 2008, this one would be very difficult to miss. We shall see.
To the rest of the readership of the AW:
the damage is done for now . Let's focus on the ways to clean up the mess.
David Grigorian, Ph.D.
www.pf-armenia.org
Mr. Nazaryan, firstly I have no statistics. I merely quoted well documented numbers which are consistent with Armenian Church counts, Ottoman census records and numbers from Red Cross and other missions. These are well investigated and studied figures. What gave you the impression that I made these numbers up? You make statements that I doubt you can back up.
Secondly, 1893-96 rebellions, as it is known in history, were the reason for the armed conflict, not the other way around. There have been numerous such uprisings after the Berlin Treaty, well armed and directly and overtly supported by Russia, with the express purpose of seperating a large chunk of Anatolia from Ottomans. These are the facts, not mine, but can be found in Armenian records.
Obviously you claim Armenians had legitimate reasons for rebelling and fighting, then you can certainly extend the same logic to those who felt that was a mortal threat to their very existence. I am not in a position to moralize anyone here even as someone whose family tree was cut from the roots in Bitlis during 1916. The fact is people who were trying to establish Greater Armenia were trying to do it where they were a minority.
There were population movements due to wars and conflicts all around the Ottoman borders. They were under attack for over a century. You only mention what happened to Christians, but conveniently ignore for example that after the Russo-Turkish war of 1878, when Russia invaded the Kars region, many of the Muslims there were driven out and replaced by Armenians of Russian Armenia. Russians have changed the demographics of the Caucasus consdierably and deliberately over a century. Tolstoy even wrote about it. A process that continues to this day. Ever heard of Great Circussian Migration? What happened to Crimeans? Chechens, Lezgis? Not to mention the general ethnic cleansing of the Muslims that began in the Balkans that continue to this day. I will not even bring up ethnic cleansing of Karabag.
Maybe something good will come out of this historical commison, there is much people do not know about history which they think they know well. Propaganda is not real or history, however elaborate it may be.
It's all talk. Why does Raffi Hoavanissian, ARF or any other group that thinks and talks nothing but Genocide and occupied land. You think by chanting "we are victims of the first Genocide..." Turkey will turn around and say "here, take your lands." Hardly any criminal admits to the crime charged. Why would Turkey? At some point you either take the matter to court (international court) or talk directly with the person, group or state that has committed the crime. I don't hear anybody saying "lets take the matter to the International Court or let's talk to Turkey and clarify what we want - as restitution, reparation etc. of the Genocide." Since the individuals and the groups making the loudest protest against the protocols are not taking concrete steps to move towards a lasting solution, the matter of Genocide and occupied lands is just a religion. What would they do if some resolution was rendered? They will not have something grand to stand for or to struggle for. If you want the map of Armenia to look like what President Wilson drew, than pray you have enough arms, power and stamina to take it back by force. No one will give it back by chanting "recognize the Genocide".
PS David wrote:
There are some Turkish and surrogate historians that disagree. They are in the minority, however.
Make that such a tiny minority as to have lost this battle in the academic world. Even former supporters now come out and say they were misled, or some such thing. This is why, in the eyes of many including myself, a "commission" is necessary for Turkey alone, because left up to the true body of academic scholarship (such as the International Association of Genocide Scholars, for example) there is no question at all. That's why this should not be a political football.
Jenine wrote:
"But, I think you have what I said backwards: I said that the protocols including a historical commission has in fact influenced the way the media reports on the genocide – not the other way around. We are once again back to the presentation by some media outlets that the Armenian Genocide is a “dispute” between two parties. It seems to me that the historical commission has in fact set us back in this respect."
People decide what are setbacks. If people believe a setback exists for a long enough time, it will become reality. Regarding the media, nobody bothers to take the time and research to a topic and stake a position. It is far easier to claim "alleged" "disputed" rather than to take the wrath of readership pressure. This characterizes modern "journalism". Few take a position on events and hide under various forms of relativism.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Great Katia then we can count on you to move back to your ancestral homelands in . . um . . . Turkey(?) and start all over from scratch? I doubt it. Reparation is a fine word to throw around but, practically, it is almost impossible to implement.
Case in point - nowhere in 19th or 20th centuries has a people more deserved reparation than our Native Americans yet what would you have them do, spend all their time in Washington trying to out lobby professional lobbyists who have millions of dollars to spend? Or would it be better, as they have chosen to do, to rebuild their culture while using society's own predilections for gambling and making a small fortune to fund those cultural efforts? In the end it's about cultural survival.
The Armenians have already passed that test. There are now Armenians in the world than before the genocide. Their culture thrives in every outpost in the diaspora that they have established. While the Hyestansis were trying to resist being "Russified" under Soviet rule, the diaspora was helping by keeping alive the old dances, the old music and the traditional cuisine of the people. What a just reparation that is! All the evil imagined by a government to totally destroy a people only cast their seeds to the entire world and made them welcome in every land and among the leaders, innovators, artists and educators wherever they landed. No, reparation would be a dim reflection of this monumental accomplishment.
Historically, however, there must be recognition of the genocide as the top most important factor in the psychological survival of the people and culture. Without this, getting paid for that what Turkish government did to your family would be merely blood money and would cheapen the sacrifice that your very ancestors made by giving their lives willingly or unwillingly under a government orchestrated campaign of extermination. No reparation, regardless of how large, could ever justify the horror that they went through.
Recognition should be the primary goal of every Armenian soul and hopefully those of your pesas, friends and admirers. Like myself. Oh, yes, and supposedly the American government.
Respectfully,
Robert Thomas
"Yes Hye chem, paitz sirdus - Hye eh!"
Gor, "some people in Armenia" who say that "bokhken kerel" as the saying goes. As far as I am concerned, as long as any human claims Armenian identity whether through language and\or culture and\or shared history is an Armenian irrespective of residence. That is different from being an Armenian citizen which means obligations to the state under Constitution.
Now about expressing strong opinions. No one can forbid you or any other Armenian in the free world to have a strong opinion on any matter. We saw, however, how strong those opinions were in Paris and Beirut. While I do understand how easily and quickly Armenians can be aroused and agitated when it comes to the issue of genocide, I have hard time understanding how specifically these actions may influence policy choices. I understand that the goal was to demonstrate to the "davajan" Serge Sargsyan that the protocols are not welcome among certain Armenians who may claim that their views are shared by all diasporan Armenians. I understand that the hope of those orchestrating these protests was that he'd cave in and under pressure would blink. From what I know about this Gharabaghtsi man, Serge Sargsyan, on the contrary he'd stick to his guns under such pressure. This does not mean that he was not open for any constructive suggestions. Constructive means - recommend policy options. Do not say how bad Turks and Turkey are, do not read chapters from your bed time Friedman stories, BUT state what you thing is wrong and why i.e. how may have negative impact on national interests and suggest an alternative policy. Apparently this is a very high demand on some self-styled "national heroes" like Nalbandyan who for the last 70 hours keeps beating around the bush trumpeting the evil Turkish empire's imminent take over of Eurasia.
I'd give you one thing on this issue - Sargsyan should have started a broad consultative process earlier despite all challenges of potential leaks, misinterpretations, misrepresentations and political manipulations. I believe with proper systems and cadre in place this could have been done. From the other hand side even the most transparent of the American presidents when it comes to international negotiations, JFK, opted to keep the deal making with Khrushchev confidential until his team had developed some viable and realistic policy options. To be honest, observing some of the reactions in this forum, nasty ad hominems, I understand why Sargsyan could have been concerned about engaging communities earlier.
Prof. Henry Theriault wrote in his article (also currently appearing in Armenian Weekly, here ) :
What is striking about these examples—and many others from history–is that these all-or-nothing demands came from positions of great material, political, and military weakness and yet still succeeded because of the moral strength of the position of the “weak” vis-a-vis the “strong.” Moral legitimacy is a great force in geopolitics and is the reliable ally of the weak, oppressed, and marginalized.
I think this is a very important point. When dealing with a difference of power, the truth is important, moral power is important. It is the only thing that evens things up. This is the way to deal with a bully. We are not going to successfully fight power and bullying with the same weapons, because power is not evenly matched. So far, the diaspora has worked against great odds to create conditions for recognition. The revival of these efforts at protocol, let's not forget, was a process Turkey revived in order to avoid Obama's promise of recognition. And that is the bottom line.
As the first Christian nation, Armenians would do well to remember the teachings of Christ. If we are sheep, we'd do well to remember to be wary of the wolves. We do not expect them to change. We have truth on our side. To throw that away is to throw away a potent weapon, one that has had clear material success, especially through the hard work of the diaspora. The government of Armenia is foolish to throw that away. And equally foolish to betray its martyrs.
By the way, others may be interested in this opinion piece by Robert Fisk
I think that the "historical commission" sets up a story to be reported as a matter of dispute. Its only been in the past year or so that papers like the NY Times have started using the word genocide and established such policies with regard to the Armenian genocide. CNN, Reuters and other outlets have gone back to qualifying this as a dispute, which the establishment of a commission easily infers
I’d give you one thing on this issue – Sargsyan should have started a broad consultative process earlier despite all challenges of potential leaks, misinterpretations, misrepresentations and political manipulations. I believe with proper systems and cadre in place this could have been done. From the other hand side even the most transparent of the American presidents when it comes to international negotiations, JFK, opted to keep the deal making with Khrushchev confidential until his team had developed some viable and realistic policy options.
Hello again Arthur. The problem, in my opinion, is the failure to work together with a well-organized and vocal diaspora. This is throwing away something rare and valuable in order to create conflict instead. It just shows a lack of democratic process. The apparent explanations for this are not good ones. And nothing justifies putting aside a valuable political assets - nor seemingly the truth of the genocide.
What is striking about these examples—and many others from history–is that these all-or-nothing demands came from positions of great material, political, and military weakness and yet still succeeded because of the moral strength of the position of the “weak” vis-a-vis the “strong.” Moral legitimacy is a great force in geopolitics and is the reliable ally of the weak, oppressed, and marginalized.
As the first Christian nation, we should at least uphold what it means to be Christian -- the first priority is truth. And we are talking about people who are victims of genocide because of their religion. Included with the Armenian martyrs is also the cleansing and extermination of other Christian minorities of Greek and Assyrian ethnic extraction. I know this insistence that truth matters must set certain people's teeth on edge, those who have no tolerance for such talk. But we'd do well to pay attention to it. The examples of Gandhi and King are important; but even moreso, the success of the diaspora in creating such conditions for recognition is something one cannot throw away and be considered intelligent or perceptive. I do not understand why the government of Armenia fails to recognize the importance of the diaspora's gains and activism, except perhaps via corruption, arrogance or a combination of both. I think it's insane to trust wolves to behave as anything but wolves, even when they put on sheep's clothing. In the end I just wonder if this is only about pipelines and cash - at the expense of the memory of the millions killed. But somewhere between realpolitic and moral truth there is a way to be "as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves." And I do believe that would be the most powerful course.
Hagop, don't worry, your comments are important. I hope we can all learn to speak to one another - honest opinions are important
PS Lest it seem I am being a hasty judge of the Armenian government, let me say that I understand what powerful political pressure is being applied from parties other than the treaty signers. On the other hand, a powerful lobbying force should help one's hand in bargaining.
PS Perhaps I am being too harsh a critic of the Armenian government - I do think there must be tremendous outside pressure to make this deal. But diasporan organization can help with that too
Jenine wrote:
"The problem, in my opinion, is the failure to work together with a well-organized and vocal diaspora. This is throwing away something rare and valuable in order to create conflict instead. It just shows a lack of democratic process. The apparent explanations for this are not good ones."
Let me add a little to what Arthur said about Kennedy, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and transparency. Because the US had built up such a popular mythos about the "bloodthirsty" Soviets, it would have been nearly impossible to open US-Soviet negotiations for public scrutiny. The American public could not digest that Khrushchev was not dictated to by the suave John Kennedy, but rather much of the solution involved the Soviets removing their missiles in Cuba in exchange for the US removal of Jupiter C missiles from Turkey. Some things needs to be transparent, other things should be transparent but the time-value lost and re-education involved makes this option not practical in some cases. There are indeed many kinds deliberations, however, that must simply remain secret.
"And nothing justifies putting aside a valuable political assets – nor seemingly the truth of the genocide."
I would venture to say that for a political asset to be useful, it must understand what is transpiring.
The truth of the genocide is not being questioned by Armenia.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Well said, Robert! You have converted my sense of hopelessness into a new sense of purpose and optimism. I especially liked your parable with the American Indians. The only thing that is still missing for me is the realization that present day Armenia is not the land of my ancestors. Maybe I am misinformed but I am fairly sure that a visit1 1to Van and to Trebzon, the origin of my maternal grandparents, would most likely be as dangerous as it would be a let-down.
With regard to the topic of the original post-I would add that the second item of the protocols (after accepting the genocide as fact) should be an international call to salvage and protect and save from future destruction all remnants of ancient Armenian cities such as Van and Ani.
"From what I know about this Gharabaghtsi man, Serge Sargsyan, on the contrary he’d stick to his guns under such [Diasporan] pressure."
A gharabaghtsi locksmith-turned-president, a lubber-headed non-achiever at school with extra-mural level of higher education should have stuck to his guns under the pressure of foreign powers, and not his coethnics in Diaspora and Armenia. Or resign with dignity, if he couldn't...
Dear Robert Thomas, you may think your heart is Armenian. Trust me it ain't. No self-respecting Armenian, left alone a wannabe Armenian would ever say these things.
The restoration of Armenian lands back into Armenian hands, as one of components of reparations, is not contingent on whether Armenians are willing to "go back and start from scratch". It is continegent on the sanctity of JUSTICE.
If I choose to return that is my decision and certainly not yours. I may indeed choose to return and raise my family there. I may also decide to operate my fruit processing plant on my lands and employ local labor. I may on the other hand choose to lease MY LAND to an Armenian, Kurd or Turk already residing on that land for a mutually agreed upon FEE under the normal terms of a standard lease agreement. Point being MY decision to do what I like with MY LAND is MY CHOICE as its MY RIGHT. Those rights were relentlessly and viciously trampled over almost a century ago and the amount of time elapsed since those genocidal crimes were perpetrated does not delegitimize or undermine my rightful legal claims to MY LAND TO DO WHATEVER I WANT WITH THEM. Had the genocide not occurred millions of Armenian families would still be residing on what is Western Armenian lands.
Those willing to continue living life as defeated slaves are free to do what they like. But they have no right to attempt to trample over my rights and speak on behalf of my RIGHT TO MY LAND AND PROPERTY. THEY DIDNT HAVE THAT RIGHT THEN AND THEY DONT HAVE THAT RIGHT NOW.
International court participation becomes more powerful after official recognition takes shape. This has been a long process against many odds. Why throw away what we have done already for some "historical commission" nonsense? Scholarship has clearly spoken at this time on this issue. This is a setback on those terms.
KUDOS to the IAGS. This letter should also go to Obama, the spinless two-face. (2012 can't come fast enough) Apparently the Turkish President was right on when he called Obama a novice politician before the elections. Last, the Armenians are too splintered. We need a unified voice and goal. Maybe the flawed agreement by the corrupt Sarkysian might be the answer. Also, this will get the diaspora more involved in future Armenian elections to not allow corrupt thugs to hijack Armenia.
Artashes Bashmakian, your logic does not go too far. For example, today's Armenia became independent free of charge. The time will come that justice will take Turkey in parts. Then, we should be around with an entitlement to control Western Armenia, if until then Armenia had not been so powerful that she has taken Western Armenia by force.
One thing is clear. All those parties who appeared in signing of those so called protocols have stakes in the upcomming deal between Armenia and Turkey. Why not take this opportunity and demand what we are entitle too.
I have basic problem with this administration. They never call our liberated territorires as such. They call them security zone. I rarely hear them to make an statement that pertains to all Armenians, except Mr. Sarkisian's address on last Saturday.
Furthermore, the core and objective of protocols is to kill the spirit of Diaspora because the real independent power of Armenians is located in Diaspora. The Republic of Armenia has no independent role. I do not believe Mr. Sarkisian when he claims that all of these inititives have been his. In fact I do not trust him anymore. If Mr. Sarkisina wants us to close our eyes and instead hear his claims that there are no preconditions in the protrocols, then how am I able to believe him about something that there is nothing in writing. For example, he still claims that he would be the last Armenian in the world that let Karabakh go. I have news for you. He has agreed everything we are hearing from enemy. The problem is that the Armenia herself is in danger as long as these people are in power. Armenians must change the system of government not only the president.
The real change must come from Diaspora because no matter who becomes the president must keep others happey.
Long Live Armenians and Armenia.
Dear Janine,
Glad to read your sincere concerns and effort to challenge those whom you disagree with. I have tried the same, if you scroll far enough to the earlier days/hours of this discussion, but I now know that it is a waste of time, which I can use better for the Armenian cause. You may be wasting your time too.
I am writing this to you because I noticed your reference to Robert Fisk. I have tried the same, again. One very vocal member of this discussion apparently ran a Google-type search on this name and came up with the most unsustainable claim, garnered with rudeness and arrogarnce, that I am offering him a "one-book bibliography". Later he agreed that there are essays and articles, but said that I "may not know ...that they were published in one book a year or two ago". Had this person really had a clue of what he was talking about, he would have known that Robert has 6 books and he has said and written very clearly that The Great War for Civilzation is a book in itself and not a compliation. But this he cannot learn from Google easily. What actually I wanted him to read is Fisk's last piece about these protocols (now his last is about the 2009 Nobel Prize for Peace).
I am trying to make you aware on what level some of the proponents of the protocols in this forum are operating. And since they are only two - and I know Tavit Tavitian from his soc.culture.turkish exemplary fights with Serdar Argic (interesting story in itself) from the early 1990-ties - there is only one left that deserves your special treatment. I may disagree vehemently with Tavit and I am stunned by his position, but I am sure that he is at least genuine. Watch out for the other time-eater.
Best,
Greg
This article makes a reference to a presidential veto from President Obama on a future genocide resolution. This is actually not a consideration because the genocide resolution submitted is just that- a resolution. It speaks as the sense of the Congress and so requires no presidential signing as it is not binding on him to do anything.
Dear Mihran,
Sorry if I gave the impression that reparation is not just. It is. It should not be PRIMARY, however. When there is agreement that there was a genocide and that it was intentional then, believe me, reparation will be quick on its heels as the Turks well know. Hence their resistance to acknowledging it.
As for being a "wannabe" Armenian, I met my wife due to studying and playing Armenian music in New York for 8 years fostering a love of the Armenian people. My wedding invitation was engraved and printed in gold in New York in Armenian and English - that was my choice and gift to my wife's family. Both of my sons speak fluent Armenian. Do yours? I was the choir director of St. James Armenian Church for 11 years and have learned the entire Badarak by heart. Have you? My sons were on the alter from age 6 at their own volition and not through coercion from my wife or myself. I could go on but it would seem to be more self aggrandizing than I wish to be just for the sake of convincing you. No, I assure you my heart is Armenian because that's a conscious choice that I made. You were just lucky to be born that way. I don't think that gives you much more right than I to love the Armenian people and wish them well.
You can disagree - just don't shoot the well intentioned messenger.
Sirov,
Robert
Mihran,
I agree with you in terms of restoration of Armenian lands, but you don't have to be harsh with people that have different perspectives. Robert may not be an Armenian but I'm sure he is sincere in his statement, and he is doing more than some Armenians in regards to supporting Armenian issues.
Dear Robert Thomas,
Wow, your response to my post has really hit a nerve with some of our Armenians.
I agree with you that the opposite side has a tremendous monetary advantage for a powerful lobby, since nowadays most politicians work for and serve the highest bidder. I agree with you that we probably do not have the numbers needed to populate all of our historical lands if they were given back to us, the Genocide has take care of that. However,
1. Comparing the native Indians to the Armenians is like comparing corn to pomegrenate (BTW pomegranate is the most ancient fruit and is the national fruit of Armenia)
I have the highest respect to the Native Indians and I agree with you that they have been dealt with great injustice. However, the difference is that the Armenians in Turkey were the creme of the crop of that society, practically everything from farms to architecture, banking, medicine and art were built by Armenians and you can research that. As a matter of fact it is documented that thousands of Turks went hungry and without shoes after the Genocide because all the Armenian farmers and shoe makers were deported!
2. We are the descendants of Noah who's arc landed on our mountain Ararat, we had our own empire, we were part of the Roman empire, we saw the demise of the Roman Empire and the extinction of many different nations, we are the first Christian Nation and to this modern day we have invented some really noteworthy technology including the MRI. We existed for thousands of years before America and the native Indians were even discovered. Being a great "pesa" you probably know all of this. The turks are the descendants of the mongols who mainly survived by "raiding" , raping and plundering other tribes and taking over their possessions. We were supposed to go quietly centuries ago... We didn't, and it is our right to chose not to!
3. The Christian nations ie, USA, France, Britain and Russia had declared war against Turkey in WWI. Turkey was losing all the lands it was controlling and it needed to annex the Armenian lands desperately so it announced a Holy Jihad and gave its people the temporary right to massacre the Christian Armenians in retalliation to the above Christian nations that were at war against it. They annuonced a Pan Turkic plan that wanted that whole block to be Muslim. Ironically, these same Christian nations are very chummy with Turkey now and have agreed to barter our historical lands for oil revenues and a strategic foothold in the Caucasus. After the Genocide, the European countries divided the equivalent to $15 million dollars in their banks that belonged to Armenians who had perished and were nowhere to claim them. Bottom line, they all owe us.
4. We were massacred and our 4,000 year old homeland was awarded to the criminal party. The jews got massacred but were offered a homeland. I agree with you that no value can be put on what we lost. So, please try to tell a jew that the recognition of their holocaust on a piece of paper with NO REPARATIONS AND PAYBACKS should have been enough.
5. I am glad that you like the Armenians, but the difference between you and me, Robert, is that I have to live with the memories and stories of my grandparents. Some of us still have the deeds of our grandparents properties. My grandfather lost two whole family of relatives, his firstborn and had to live with post traumatic syndrome because he kept on hearing the cries of the children who were being tossed in rivers.
6. To let Turkey go scot free for this tremendous crime is legally unthinkable. For it to happen with the help of the US is sickening to me, an American citizen. The US is free to persue its interests, but it should be stripped of the title of being a leader in human rights. There are many ways Turkey can pay us back, and returning the lands directly adjacent to our border such as Van, Ani and Ararat can be very plausible. If the jews were given lands promised to them by God in the bible, we should be able to get back our forefathers lands snatched away a mere 94 years ago.
7. In closing, I agree with Mihran. Our property and land should be given back to us. What we do with them is our business alone.
Dear Armine,
I see how passionate you are about his background. He doesn't speak ten languages most of them dead. He does not have an extra-mural doctorate from the Leningrad branch of the AS oriental studies department. But he is the man who stuck to his guns during the war. The pressure of the foreign powers could result in dire consequences for Armenia. I guess he could have said no to them but only if those orchestrating the pressure would have a better course of action to the yes. We can certainly talk about those consequences but someone with your education and background should have enough expertise and imagination to see what those might have been. Anyone in his shoes, including our political genii, choosing an all-or-nothing stance would ultimately end up signing a worse off deal than what we have now. Why? Because none of them has spelled out alternative policies in the case of no. Admittedly, it is far from perfect. There are many ways it could be better theoretically. But diplomacy as politics is the art of possible. This one has a number of gains for us in three probable scenarios - Turkey ratifies, Turkey does not ratify, and Turkey ratifies but tries to drag feet.
I would venture to say that for a political asset to be useful, it must understand what is transpiring.
The truth of the genocide is not being questioned by Armenia.
But this is seemingly conytadictory. How can the diaspora plan together with the govt of Armenia for common goals and strategies if they are not included in the dialogue in the first place? Their perspective and experience, if you will, goes further back into dealing with this problem within an independent democratic country than those who lived under Soviet rule.
Once again, nobody thinks Armenia questions the genocide. A "truth commission" is not necessary unless there is a question implied in the first place. Perhaps it seems that the government of Armenia dismisses the importance of the genocide - or at least those who have worked for its recognition, the recognition of our history and justice in the face of strong powers to the contrary
oops... "contradictory"
Wow, people getting all upset about something that happened 100 yrs. ago. No wonder people can't get along. Shouldn't you be grateful that you survived and the Armenian people and Turkish people are still around? Some people just feel the need to incite more hate and continue with crap that should already be done with, but no someone still wants to hold a grudge for something they happen a century ago. It's pathetic.
Dear Professor Theriault,
“Moral legitimacy is a great force in geopolitics and is the reliable ally of the weak, oppressed, and marginalized.”
What a strong, eloquent, and convincing article! Being a non-Armenian, as far as I can judge from your surname, you spoke, I’m certain, from the hearts of the prevailing majority of Armenians world-wide. On the personal level, I’ve experienced it so often that bullying people ultimately come to respect your convictions if you know that truth is on your side. Armenia did not close the border with Turkey. Armenians did not refuse to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey without preconditions. Armenia did not impose an illegal blockade of Turkey. Finally, and most importantly, Armenians were victims not perpetrators of the genocide. Unfortunately, for moral legitimacy to be acknowledged as a great force in geopolitics, a ruler himself needs to be moral...
I cannot thank you enough, Sir, for your most valuable contribution.
Most earnestly,
Paul Kadian
London, UK
Dear Janine,
I agree with you on the consensus. We as a nation wasted almost 20 years without any serious attempts to build at least a sufficient consensus on red lines, negotiables, division of labor and consultative mechanisms for decision-making. This cannot be done over night or even over a fortnight. But it can be done and I have seen others do it successfully. We can now put the blame on Armenian leadership past and presence. They can blame diasporan leadership. But for me the issue is beyond the blame game. I could also agree with you that Sargsyan and his team should have tried the first hundred day in the office by creating such mechanisms. His last minute effort was justly seen by many as not genuinely consultative but at best informative, i.e. informing after the decision was made and space for constructive contributions was limited (with the exception of Sassunian, I did not see anyone. This allowed for political and emotional mobilization against when the nation most needed mobilization for. The best that can be done now is analyzing the lessons and trying from square minus ten. It will be equally important to understand the causes of this gap. Some of these are more obvious to me than others - no traditions of consultative processes, silver back culture of leadership, inexperienced but ambitious team of young advisors and others. More importantly we need to ask the question what's next? There are several choices including the one of continuing to widen the chasm. This is exactly what our enemies would like to see. The choice that I would like to see is moving to the prize of a sufficient consensus (some people will be opposed no matter what) through a series of difficult conversations and quality leadership. My concern is that the all or nothing camp will prevail in widening the gap to the detriment of our national interests. Some of the motives of this camp are transparent - it is struggle for power by agitating protest electorates. This is a classical problem of mismanagement of the internal track negotiations before engaging externally. The only caveat for the followers of that camp I have is that no matter who replaces "the gharabaghtsi locksmith turned president" will be facing the same choice and consequences of a no and ultimately may be forced to accept a much worse deal.
An excellent statement by Mr. Schabas and the IAGS. It puts the "historical commission" in a correct perspective. If the Turks are serious about reconciliation,then accept history and move to the next stage. Their fear of that next stage(finanacial and territorial claims) is the real concern. Every year more scholars inTurkey come forward with the truth. We'll see how much they really
covet EU membership. It is we , the Armenians, that must prepare for the next step. Armenia and the diaspora must be one. Let us learn as we come up the political learning curve.
Es chem havatum vor hogheri harts arants krvi karogh e lutsver. Verjapes aid hogheri vra hima turker en aprum. Ur piti gnan nrank. Dra haamar aid hartse petk e darna erkrordakan. Chpetk e Haiastani ev Artskhi tntesakan zagatsume zohaberel anirakanali erazanknerin. Ailapes kkortsnenk erkusn el. Ete aid hartse chlini turkere aveli hesht kndunen genoside paste. Kaghakanutiune bard protsess e u petk che huis unenal vor voreve mi urish petutiun kogni mez aid hartsum. Ov el vor khostana kam kkhabi kam el kshahagortsi inchpes minchev hima. Isk menak menk ais hartse lutsel chenk karogh.
David,
I would only add to your accurate narrative on the Cuban Missile Crisis that the very first session of the ExComm was conducted secretly by Robert Kennedy in the basement of the White House. All subsequent sessions until JFK's televised address to the nation nine days into the crisis were held quietly without media's and Congress' awareness. Even the White House press secretary Pierre Salinger was not in the loop. When the story on possible invasion of Cuba leaked to a Washington Post journalist (they'd spotted large scale military preparations in Florida), JFK personally called the editor-in-chief and asked him to hold on with publication for a couple of days. It is also true that the ExComm invited to some of the sessions the hawks who stood for all-or-nothing options - Dean Acheson and Curtis LeMay. The aggravating factors in the Cuban Missile Crisis were the previous botched up CIA run operation in the Bay of Pigs and mid-term congressional elections.
While this is a good case to illustrate the point, I still believe that given the sensitivity of our issue Sargsyan's team would have done much better if there were an "Armenian ExComm" on this process with a broad range of leaders, including diasporans, involved. They can argue they could not be confident that there'd be no leaks into a highly partisan context and culture of veracity of cab drivers' rumors. With all these challenges I can still think of several viable process options for having the commission engaged and not necessarily in secrecy.
Greg, you would have saved yourself and others time if you had referred to that exact text. I told you that one of his books was on my shelf - The Age of the Warrior, to be precisely. I did not need to google - no need to project your own practice onto others. Instead of playing a smart Alex you could have stated that you had his recent article on the subject in mind without assumptions that only you had read it. Rest assured I read it too, including this "Nagorno-Karabagh, part of historic Armenia seized from Azerbaijan by Armenian militias almost two decades ago – not without a little ethnic cleansing by Armenians, it should be added." I am not asking too much - a simple rule for any discussion and politeness. You could have simply provided this instead of leaving your opponent guessing (extremely rude and arrogant).
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-genocide-forgotten-armenians-horrified-by-treaty-with-turkey-1799302.html
And with all due respect to you and even more so to Robert Fisk, I did not see a thesis in his article. Now you are playing an offended uncle. No problem. If I need to apologize for what you perceived as rudeness, I will. Take it easy.
Dear Janine,
I can understand how and why you may have these hurt feelings. I also think that the Armenian government despite a ministerial position for diaspora relations is not doing nearly enough to bridge the gaps in perceptions. This vital relationship can be compared to two lungs. However, I also know that genocide recognition is the integral part of the Armenian foreign policy doctrine. Both FAM Edward Nalbandyan and DRM Hranush Akopyan should dedicate more efforts to report regularly to the nation what specifically their agencies are doing towards that end. I tried to find an annual report of either agency - there is none on the websites. They have clearly failed on this one if it is a criteria for performance evaluation in the parliament and internally in the government.
Jenine wrote:
"But this is seemingly contradictory. How can the diaspora plan together with the govt of Armenia for common goals and strategies if they are not included in the dialogue in the first place?"
You didn’t ask that question initially. But, in response I would say there is a lot more that can be done synergistically. However, there is a slight divergence of interest between the parties. One could make a similar comparison between with the interests of Israeli Jews and those in Orange County, CA.
"Their perspective and experience, if you will, goes further back into dealing with this problem within an independent democratic country than those who lived under Soviet rule."
There are a lot of things that haven’t worked out optimally between the western diaspora and Armenia for many reasons. Its analysis is beyond the scope this particular public forum.
"Once again, nobody thinks Armenia questions the genocide A “truth commission” is not necessary unless there is a question implied in the first place. Perhaps it seems that the government of Armenia dismisses the importance of the genocide – or at least those who have worked for its recognition, the recognition of our history and justice in the face of strong powers to the contrary."
The term Truth Commission is neither stated nor implied in the Protocol.
Even the word genocide is not used in the Protocol, but it is universally accepted that it will be a topic of such a commission.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Katia, you say:
"However, the difference is that the Armenians in Turkey were the creme of the crop of that society, practically everything from farms to architecture, banking, medicine and art were built by Armenians and you can research that."
Exactly. They were a privilaged minority. They were well represented not just in arts and finance but government also. You have any idea how many Armenian Pashas and Governors were in office at the beginning of the 20th century? Which is of course very confusing given the fact that Turks were brutal killers of all Christians and repressed Armenians and tried to wipe them off the face of the earth...
Then you say:
"The turks are the descendants of the mongols who mainly survived by “raiding” , raping and plundering other tribes and taking over their possessions. We were supposed to go quietly centuries ago…"
This sounds so much like the racist supremist rantings we have all known so well... which is again confusing because I thought it was Turks who were supposed to be the racist brutes... Mongols as you say, supposedly an insult...
It is even more amazing and ironic, since more than anything else it was probably the unusually tolerant culture of Ottomans and their millet system that enabled Armenians, their culture and many others survive through centuries. Just imagine how long Turks would have lasted if it were other way around. Karabag gives us a good idea though.
Maybe that is why Turks have founded so many succesful empires and states, lasted so many centuries in the Middle East, made history, while others have not.
Racism and nationalism cut both ways.
Greg wrote:
"Dear Janine,
Glad to read your sincere concerns and effort to challenge those whom you disagree with. I have tried the same, if you scroll far enough to the earlier days/hours of this discussion, but I now know that it is a waste of time, which I can use better for the Armenian cause. You may be wasting your time too."
Jenine is simply making statements and asking questions. I don’t consider her a challenger, but rather a participant at this time.
"I am trying to make you aware on what level some of the proponents of the protocols in this forum are operating. And since they are only two – and I know Tavit Tavitian from his soc.culture.turkish exemplary fights with Serdar Argic (interesting story in itself) from the early 1990-ties – there is only one left that deserves your special treatment. I may disagree vehemently with Tavit and I am stunned by his position, but I am sure that he is at least genuine. Watch out for the other time-eater."
Just because I am not on the “0” side of the binary zero-sum judgment scale, one should not infer I am a “1”. All I have done is attempt to explain events. It is like trying to explain the origins of slavery in the US. If I provided solid reasons why the institution had economic benefits for southern US slave owners, it does NOT mean I endorse slavery. This is like having landed on the moon and there is only one water station. One could get angry there are not more stations or that this station does not have orange juice. Being angry will not create more refreshment options. These Protocols exist and no other alternative has been proposed. I also went so far, in response to Janine, to demonstrate how these Protocols appear to have positive diplomatic aspects. To wish Armenia was powerful enough to dictate terms of a settlement on the embodiment of a state that got away with genocide is more than patriotic. However, that is simply not an option. It is also not the case that Turkey is powerful enough to run the clock out, hoping Armenians simply disappear from what remains of their homeland. That goal will be removed from the Turkish option list when the Protocols are ratified. Given this, what do you disagree with me so vehemently? Does your disagreement really mean you wish I were a zero-sum, rejectionist?
Out of curiosity, what “special treatment” does Artur Martirosyan deserve?
I would engage future Serdar Argic autobots as vigorously as I did 15-20 years ago. In fact, today I would be in a vastly better position than I was back then because the Turkish argument has self-deteriorated even more than its UseNet annihilation. Imagine 15 years ago, apologist Turks trying to explain how their government would deign to sit down and discuss an event they claim never happened! I would not doubt that the energy that went into that public battle had a measurable impact on dismantling part of the socialization process of an entire generation of Turkish students, many of which may have ended up in Turkish public service including their Foreign Ministry. Maybe this too is wishful thinking.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
To Arthur
Your inconsistency is no longer funny. In an earlier posting I made, I tried (in a more diplomatic way) to get you to admit that you are venturing into areas that you have no clue about and that you are making more assumptions that you can actually handle. Enough already. Please stop this diarrhea of words. You are neither the author of the article that's being discussed not an adviser to SS on foreign affairs to know the details....well, maybe you are. I am sorry here I am being the one who ventures into a topic that he has no clue about! I apologize.
You say: "There are several choices including the one of continuing to widen the chasm. This is exactly what our enemies would like to see." The choice that I would like to see is moving to the prize of a sufficient consensus (some people will be opposed no matter what) through a series of difficult conversations and quality leadership."
Are you referring to Turks as enemies? Be consistent here, will you? If that's really the case aren't you trusting them too much--to get you access to the rest of the world, to develop your economy, to help you recognize the genocide, keep the channels open for any claims we may have in the future, to never interfere in the Gharabagh negotiations, and the list goes on.
A consensus? A little late for that, isn't it? Who are you preaching? Your lip service about the mistakes that have been made in handling the PR for this is taken at face value---exactly as lip service. I don't hear you saying people who screwed up and divided the already deeply divided nation need to be made accountable. You want the rest of us to understand, internalize the damage, and go on, huh? That's not the only option available to us and you know that (at least I told you about it in my postings). And I venture to say the alternatives are more promising.
You say: "My concern is that the all or nothing camp will prevail in widening the gap to the detriment of our national interests."
A bit too late to think about that, isn't it? The national interest have been compromised by a group of political opportunists with no capacity whatsoever to carry out operations like this. These things under normal circumstances and in a normal country would take years to prepare---these people did it within a few months most of which they were busy building a case against March 1-2, 2008 demonstrators to show that they shut themselves while demonstrating and killed 10! Speaking of which, where were you after March 1-2, 2008? Were you saying with the same energy that our national interests have been compromised? (If you were, then I owe you a public apology, which I will deliver immediately after seeing evidence of your statements). What credibility do you have to talk about the "national interests" now? What you are talking about are the interests of SS and his group--it would be sad to confuse the two.
You say: "The only caveat for the followers of that camp I have is that no matter who replaces “the gharabaghtsi locksmith turned president” will be facing the same choice and consequences of a no and ultimately may be forced to accept a much worse deal."
Wrong again. It's like saying everybody else in the nation is a drug addict with a record of gambling and little formal relevant education who got his job by getting 10 of his countryman killed. You got the point. So please spare us the headache of having to listen to you unconvincing storytelling. I thank you for your attention though.
David Grigorian, Ph.D.
www.pf-armenia.org
First, pardon to Mr. Schabas because we are quite off topic from the original intent of this forum and I in no way want to diverge from the support for your letter in any way.
Thank you Katia, Stepan and even Mihran. I agree with all of you except, perhaps, only in the hierarchy of timing. Recognition, yes. Reparation, definitely. But one with out the other, as Katia so passionately put forth, is unacceptable. But if you get the first, the second must follow like night turns to day.
I was so interested to learn from historian Hilmar Kaiser (sp?) who has spoken here on several occasions, that the deed to that air base in Turkey that the Turks like to threaten to close, is actually in a vault in Lebanon, and the proven property of the Armenian family whose land it was before the genocide. And it is precisely Islamic law that forbids the destruction of ownership records. So caught in their own device, the Turks will not have any choice and in fact will, themselves, have the very proof of ownership of all those Armenian properties. They can't, by law, do otherwise.
How an actual repatriation would work, would be extremely difficult but if the Armenians have proved anything it is that they have done the impossible before, so I wouldn't count anything out. Nor do I wish to imply that they shouldn't have faith and dream.
Before Armenia was free, I wore the եռագույն that my gunkahayr gave me, to church, an affront to some (because of our Tashnag leanings no doubt). But I wore it proudly as proof of that faith and I shared that dream. Today it is reality and there is no one more happy about the existence of a free Armenia than me. Now there are a few more hurdles to vault and barriers to cross and then the way of an entire people is free.
Asdvadz tser hede ullah!
The author makes the powerful statement of "Not only is Armenia’s sovereignty as a political entity at stake, but the ultimate independence of Karabagh hangs in the balance", however he does not delve into how this occurs?
Considering the status NK was NOT explictly discussed in the protocols I fail to see how this hurts NK's position. If anything does it not fortify Armenians' hand in NK? If the Turks make it a precondition after the fact, all Armenia has to do is stand firm and failure of the protocols will be a Global PR nightmare for Turkey. Can someone please tell me what I am missing here or the flaw in my logic?
Dr. David Grigorian,
You have written many words but they make little sense. Many angry questions without much relevance to the subject at hand. Simply put - your Ph.D. does not mean that you have a clue. Stop waving with it, it is not adding credibility. It is very easy to save you from my storytelling - do not read my stories and stop telling me what I should do and what I should not. I will answer a couple questions, assuming you needed answers.
"Speaking of which, where were you after March 1-2, 2008? Were you saying with the same energy that our national interests have been compromised?"
Of course, they were. It took three to dance that kochari. The one-eyed king of all Armenians and two gharabaghtsis who entered politics with the blessings from the most educated of all men in Armenia. Even if you put a hundred Ph.D.s in economics like yourself together, they still will need to answer the question of alternatives when sticking to a no. Do you have answers? Surprise me, Dr. Grigorian.
"Are you referring to Turks as enemies? Be consistent here, will you? If that’s really the case aren’t you trusting them too much–to get you access to the rest of the world, to develop your economy, to help you recognize the genocide, keep the channels open for any claims we may have in the future, to never interfere in the Gharabagh negotiations, and the list goes on."
I am referring to Turkey as a hostile state. And I am extremely consistent. I do not need to entrust your list of things to them nor that is done by the protocols. Were you outraged when LTP was shaking hands with Turkesh? Maybe last February when he was that once he makes peace with Turkey, Armenia would not need an army? I still have a CD somewhere with his very educated speeches somewhere.
The only things Turkey needs to do is to open border and establish diplomatic relations. How much trust is necessary for that? Some and not in Turkey but in the US, EU and Russia's ability to pull that much out. If they fail, we do not need to worry about trust issues.
"A consensus? A little late for that, isn’t it? Who are you preaching?"
Yes, a sufficient consensus that will exclude only the hysterical types. I am not preaching, I am appealing to all reasonable people. Because that makes more sense than options that you have on your revolutionary mind. That thing in your mind may result in more blood than on March 1-2, 08 and ultimately you and your likes will be as much responsible as the other side.
"What credibility do you have to talk about the “national interests” now? What you are talking about are the interests of SS and his group–it would be sad to confuse the two."
No, I am talking about Armenian national interests. I cannot help you if you do not understand what you read.
I've been to both Turkey and Armenia (and Nagorno Karabagh), and despite genuinely enjoying my time in both countries and having a lot of respect and warm feelings for both Turks and Armenians, what I've found is that both sides are guilty but (generally) too proud to admit it. That's how pretty much all ethnic conflicts go. Museums in both countries are very one-sided and do not mention any crimes committed by the respective country. Neither culture is very accepting of self-criticism. In America you can get away with some criticism of your own country, but not in Armenia or Turkey (or a lot of countries for that matter). In any case, Turkey will not view the massacres of 1915 as a genocide, and the Armenians will not view it as anything else any time soon. The best they can do is agree to disagree and accept that everyone suffered and move the hell on.
“The only caveat for the followers of that camp I have is that no matter who replaces “the gharabaghtsi locksmith turned president” will be facing the same choice and consequences of a no and ultimately may be forced to accept a much worse deal.”
I’m confused. I couldn’t imagine that in an intellectual debate like this I’d need to refer to Political Science 101, a course intended for students who wish to delve into a particular policy area. Anyway, it does matter who replaces an unpopular ruler provided whoever replaces him is the one that’s elected by the people to represent them by free and transparent voting and thus get to have a say in how their nation is run domestically and in the international arena, and not an illegitimate autocrat (personae notwithstanding) that typically are not accountable to and don’t allow the people to have a say in how the nation is run and in the matters of utmost importance for them.
Dr. Grigoryan,
You asked me many questions. May I kindly ask you a couple?
Have financial resources attracted by the pifpuf grown and, if yes, why there is no financial statement on the web site or information on major donors of this hybrid? I was also surprised not to see a shred of policy recommendations on relations with Turkey. There was some kind of a conference apparently in April this year with an assessment of the current stage of Armenian-Turkish negotiations. But there is nothing on your website either about that assessment or policies designed and\or advocated by your hybrid entity in collaboration with Vercihan Ziflioğlu. Why?
an assessment of the current stage of
Armenian-Turkish negotiations
Dear Robert,
I find your dedication to your spouse's Armenian culture very endearing. The Armenian community is lucky to have a friend like you. I only said to move to reparations because for 94 years, we worked so hard to get Turkey to recognize the Genocide. And during this time, all of our lands were populated by Turks obviously, we in the Diaspora have put roots in different nations, our survivors have mostly past on...and with the passing of each year, our case will only weaken. Most of us feel that this is done on purpose. Of course, ideally a nation should accept its wrong like Germany and then reparations should follow. My question to you is... How long should we wait for that recognition to come? If I sounded passionate it is in reaction to the recently signed protocols which have a clause in them that says that Armenia will recognize Turkey's borders as legal, taking away the rightful claim/reparation for our historical lands; a clause insisted on by the Turkish side of course. The Armenian Genocide has been accepted by many prominent historians and IAGS itself (article we are commenting on). And yet... Turkey just keeps on disregarding these historians. The new commission will be a waste of money. We feel it is another way for Turkey to chip away at the factuality of the Genocide, and dilly dally its recognition.
Murat, if I sounded racist, shame on me. Racism in any form is ugly. However, the truth here is also ugly. The Armenian villeyets were subjected to very unfair taxes and regular massacres. One noteworthy one is the one perpetrated before the 1915 Genocide by Sultan Abdul Hamid, which had cost close to another 300,000 victims. In between, the Armenian community flourished thanks to their resiliency, hard work and talents which did not go unappreciated by the Turks who needed the services they rendered. That is why the Genocide took the Armenians completely off guard. Even the Armenian government officials that you are mentioning were killed. I have to mention though, that the fact that we even had any survivors at all was because some Turks risked their lives to help us. My grandmother's Turkish neighbor hid her and claimed her as her own when the gendarmes knocked on her door. Another relative married an agha and converted to islam to survive. So, Armenians and Turks, had a very strange love and hate relationship. Massacre, and then sunny days where the Armenians would forgive and forget, very naively I might add, until the next down turn.
Murat, one thing that I completely agree with you on and have mentioned it before, is the fact that Turks are truely masterful in politics. Something we Armenians should learn from. It is everyone's wish that we all live together, respectful and responsible of our histories. I do not wish for anything more than for the day where Turkey proves itself to be a great nation by accepting what its predecessor the Ottoman Empire has done, make the necessary reparations and allow us all to finally burry the 1.5 million and get on with our lives.
William Schabbas, thank you for your dedication.
Dr. Grigoryan wrote:
Wrong again. It’s like saying everybody else in the nation is a drug addict with a record of gambling and little formal relevant education...
I don't think I am wrong nor did I speak about drug addicts with a record of gambling. I was talking about the genii of Armenian politics with relevant formal and informal education. They have all failed to spell out what policy options they recommend for saying No to the US, EU and Russia. Not even pifpaf contains a single line on that. But then pifpaf may have already solved its problems of attracting financial resources for hybrid activities.
....
Preoccupation with this single objective [Genocide recognition, note mine - Ani] has prevented the articulation of a vision and the implementation of a program that aggressively challenges Turkey in the appropriate venues. This is no easy task, but it is a necessary one if the diasporan community is to energetically support the proper meaning of Hai Tahd.
...
With a strongly worded title, this article preaches that the Genocide recognition is not a priority Yet the author studies the elements of Hai Tahd 1) to 5), rightfully putting the Genocide recognition in place No1. In the paragraph quoted above, he invites the Diaspora to "energetically support the proper meaning of Hai Tahd". I fail to understand how this can be done without addressing his quoted element element No1 - the Genocide recognition. I have the feeling that I am not alone in these thoughts.
Is this article saying that the Diaspora is wasting resources on an already exhausted issue - the Genocide is recognised enough and we cannot get it 'more' (usefully) recognised than what we have at the moment - and it is time to move on to 2), 3), 4) and 5)? But then the spirit of the protocols and the theatrical stunts around them clearly work against those 2) to 5).
I wonder if the author can clarify what exactly he advocates: burrying the Hai Tahd or pursuing it regardless of the current RA? Could I also ask you please in your possible reply to save yourself the direction "it is not as simple as you say" - we are all adults here. Thanks.
It's ludicrous for the professor to make an analogy with what happened in early 20th century Armenia with that of 1990s Yugoslavia, esp. the accusation that the Serbs committed genocide and ethnic cleansing. If the professor knows his statistics he should have realized that it's the Serb populations that have been ethnically cleansed from both Croatia and Kosovo. And, if he needs a real comparison, what about the very real genocide against Serbs in WWII Yugoslavia?
And, why didn't he mention that there were almost as many Greeks victims as Armenians who perished? How could he forget that very important fact?
Wow Katia! Well said. Yes I have many Turkish sailing friends and we love talking about boats, weather, navigation, etc. But the one discussion that we can't have is about the Genocide since they don't live in a free country. They are well aware of that however and I respect them enough not to put them on the spot by bringing it up. But I would like to be able to speak with them, as you have just done. I believe the average Turkish citizen secretly wants a dialogue and to be able to hear the facts and not what they are taught in school. Many Turkish scholars, writers and leaders have already shown their courage as they risk much to support the truth. So it won't be just the Armenians that will benefit from acknowledgment but even the Turkish people will be freed from the intellectual confinement in which they find themselves. Again, well said Katia, and I am glad to see your heart is in the right place. BTW if you wish to read an excellent book on the real facts about the Native Americans I highly recommend "Black Elk Speaks" by John G. Niehardt.
Achket Louys, hokis!
Arthur:
who is Vercihan Ziflioğlu and why should I know (of) him? Could you be more concrete with your accusations?
I would also like to know more about "a conference ... in April this year with an assessment of the current stage of Armenian-Turkish negotiations", which you are presumably attributing to the Policy Forum Armenia (PFA). You are probably confusing PFA with AIPRG, an entity very close to the government of Armenia these days. Please clarify.
You references to LTP (implying some sort of affection on my side) are misplaced. While I saw him as an opportunity to replace the regime in Yerevan in 2008 and have been an opposition suppporter since 1995 (this included a period since October 2007 when he annouced his plans to run for the president), I am what you can describe an anti-HHSh. And yes, I do think LTP got the whole "qirvayutyun" with the Turks wrong (to use Andranik Tevanyan's term here).
Never claimed I know much outside of economics and I have stated this more than once in this forum.
David Grigorian, Ph.D.
www.pf-armenia.org
May I point out in the midst of this discussion that when a "deal" was proposed for Cyprus it was put to a vote of the people? Turkey kept adding in so many amendments that finally it was defeated. But it was done so democratically. All treaties and agreements in democratic countries are supposed to represent the will of the people. But with this one we really don't have a democratic process going on before the fact.
Also, David D. wrote:
The term Truth Commission is neither stated nor implied in the Protocol.
True. And the problem is that this "historical commission" is seen as an attempt to continue smearing the truth with the usual, to continue to hide it.
So, my last question may sound naive but I'd really like an answer.
Why did the Armenian government agree to this particular part of the Protocol, the historical commission (or whatever it's proper name is)?
Dear Armine,
So it is no longer about protocols, it is about democracy, huh? What if in a perfectly democratic vote, free and fair, it is 49 vs 51, can the winner decide on how to build relations with Turkesh? May be LTP was democratically elected in 1996? May be his positions on Turkey and Azerbaijan – he spoke very candidly about the need to make peace at all costs with both in his last electoral campaign – are more acceptable to the Armenian nation on whose behalf you like to speak. Let me know if I need to remind you and others LTP’s positions on the issues at hand. I can send you his pictureshaking hands with the founder of Gray Wolves. I know that Raffi H. did not have problems with LTP’s positions in 2008, why should he now? These are hard, if at all possible, to reconcile with his own irate stance on protocols now but who said there should be any logic in the struggle for power? Anything is fair, right Armine? I am more interested in the ARFD and LTP coalition honeymoon. There was an attempt in October 2007… Now it is more promising. All LTP needs to do is tweak his rhetoric and dashnaks theirs. For example, normalization without protocols. Go figure, what is meant by that demand…
Thank you to Arthur for adding some expertise to this discussion. It is difficult to disentangle emotions from this topic, but it is important for people to hear some reason.
And God bless your patience with those who are angry that someone infused some rationality into what is more easily (from afar) dealt with by stringing together wails of agony and emotion.
Dear Dr. David Grigoryan,
My questions were based on what I found on your site. I was hoping to find some policy options there since the mission of PFA states unequivocally a hybrid of policy options development on economic and security issues and their advocacy. The only relevant thing I found was the flyer about the conference that made the assessment of the current stage of the negotiation process, hence my question. I know that you do not claim expertise beyond economics and I'd appreciate your sound takes on policy options in the scenario of border opening. For some time now I have been questioning the value for Armenia's economy. I am eager to learn your expert opinions. You also questioned my credentials - I bring to this discussion 16 years of involvement in international negotiations on various levels, including top level negotiations (Israel-Palestine, Georgia-Abkhazia-South Ossetia, Russia-Chechnya, Cyprus, Iraq and Kocoso to name a few). I am confident that I know a thing or two about negotiations, national interests and strategies. I do not have any vested interests in supporting the protocols or Sargsyan. I have never worked for the Armenian governments by choice. I did state openly my concerns about damage to the Armenian national interests from the zero sum game ("chicken run") that was played by LTP and Kocharyan long before it culminated in the bloodshed. I again warn now against emotional reactions and call on all parties to exercise cool headed rational approaches and switch from the blame game and hate to policy options and unity. I do not see that happening now and it is matter of grave concern when I read Vardan Oskanyan's piece in today's Aravot. The man who openly recognized the validity of the Kars Treaty in 2006 is now repeating propaganda points of Davutogly about implicit recognition of the Lausanne Treaty in the current protocols. Instead of policy options he, too, is engaged now in the blame and capitulation talk. Means do not justify ends. The corrupt regime cannot be replaced by resorting to the corrupt leader who had discredited himself in all possible ways - this is about your position on LTP in the last elections.
Dear Aram,
Thank you for your words of support. Even if the entire Armenian world were to disagree with my arguments, I'd stay open to persuasion only by rational counter-arguments. I'd still be asking the same questions - what policy options are recommended by those who stubbornly insist on all-or-nothing and a no to US, Russia and EC. Only if proposed walkaway options would be better than what we have on the table (the protocols), I'd be persuaded. Nothing less is acceptable for our own good. We have long taken pride as a nation for our cerebral capacity, let's use the frontal cortex, not reactive limbic part of our brains.
Dear Arthur:
could you provide the link to "what you found on our website" (in reference to what PFA has organized), per your statement above? You know too well that what you are alleging is not true (including references to a Mr. Vercihan Ziflioğlu) and nevertheless you said that in your posting. What kind of a person does this make you?
Could you please tell me what the term "pifpaf" (that you used in your earlier response to me) means? Is this your way of making "rational counter-arguments"?
More than once in this forum I discussed alternative policy options, which you have ignored. As far as I understand (and do correct me if I am wrong since this is your field), negotiations are about giving and taking and about the relative strengths of bargaining positions (I know this from my own high level negotiations in half a dozen Middle Eastern countries, including Iraq). My alternative policy recommendations are based on these very principles: when the country is at the weakest possible point since independence (both internally and externally) you don't embark on activities that require a lot of giving and taking....because of your weak bargaining position. The option we have been advocating---which has been ignored by the Armenian government and people like you because it is a little more difficult to pursue and requires more than watching football and signing protocols---is a meaningful economic and human rights reform agenda in Armenia. Last time I checked, the Armenia-Turkish relations have been in a limbo since 1993. What prevents them from staying there for a while longer (say 3-5 more years) until we put our own house in order to be in a better bargaining position and to prepare for those events (i.e., negotiations, normalizations, trade liberalizations, etc.) properly? BTW, it is in that case (i.e., when you have all your prerequisites on legal, regulatory, and competitiveness sides properly addressed), and ONLY in that case, you will benefit from trade opening. Until then, you will lose (as much of your input substituting industries could go bust within weeks due to alerady very rough conditions they are operating), as per most of empirical economic research done on a wide range of countries/liberalization episodes in recent years.
Speaking of economics, you claim that you have been questioning "the value for Armenia’s economy." I must have missed this. If this is so, could you tell me how do you figure the Armenian economy has the necessary levels of readiness/competitiveness to handle a massive trade liberalization of a magnitude so eagerly advocated by yourself. You seem to be saying that access to a market necessarily means ability to export to that market. Please clarify/refute. If you do indeed see some short term costs from opening the border rapidly and without due preparation, would you as a stakeholder not want to see some research done on the topic and be assured that the government is both aware of issues/risks involved and more importantly is able to address them. Do please tell me what fiscal space does the Armenian government---which is scheduled to TRIPPLE its external debt in 2 years (!!) according to latest projections---has to address these potential short term costs? Please elaborate.
I don't care about Oskanian. He too has discredited himself after March 1-2, 2008, and prior to that had made no advancement on either Diaspora-Armenia relations nor Armenia's foreign policy agenda....from my layman's perspective.
I never questioned your credentials. I know and respect them. I do question your motives and the way you are connecting your dots in THIS particular situation. Instead, my motives are clear. I want to see clean and capable/educated people run my country. Is this too much to ask, Mr. Martirosyan?
David
www.pf-armenia.org
Hye, and of course, thanks to William Schabas, President,
International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS)
for clarifying the starting point of discussion for
the status of the Armenian Genocide recognition.
Again, thank you. Additonally, many copies (ccs:)
shall have been sent to the UN, world media,
Congress of the USA, Secy/State(US) Clinton,
and the president of the USA, Obama Barack, Israel
and nations which cannot morally recognize the Armenian
Genocide...It seems these persons/organizations need to be
'reminded': the truths that the Armenian
Genocide, perpetrated by the Ottoman Turk, but
subsequent Turkish leaderships' ploys insist in
denying this planned elimination of a peoples on
their own lands of nearly 4,000 years...
Howsomever, it appears to me
these same Turks, in their denials do insult the
IAGS by denying all the scholarly works of your
organization - a bullying mode - since Turks
'speaks' - yet are incapable of 'hearing'...
Manooshag
Jenine asked:
"So, my last question may sound naive but I’d really like an answer. Why did the Armenian government agree to this particular part of the Protocol, the historical commission (or whatever it’s proper name is)?"
(I will ask you, once again, please read my article because a response is discussed in its text.)
The best way is to ask the Armenian negotiators. Short of that, the simple answer is this was a concession to the Turks in return for opening the border. However, it is much more complex than that because of the interplay and non-equivalence of what was agreed to and conceded by the Turks. What remains is to logically deduce why Armenia agreed to such a commission. Again, and this is of paramount importance, there was enormous pressure put on both Turkey and Armenia. There was no choice by either party other than to engage in serious negotiations. It is immaterial that the players were Sargsyan and Nalbandyan or Gul and Davutoglu -- the pressure had to be addressed by whomever was in a position to negotiate for Armenia and Turkey.
If I were Armenia, I would let the Turks think they got a "massive concession" from the Armenians. Please see my article regarding why. Armenians and Turks are going to have to discuss the genocide one way or the other. Alien beings from another galaxy will not be coming to earth anytime soon forcing Turks to beg for mercy. Armenia has no reason to fear confronting Turks on the issue of genocide. What is quite interesting (referring to Greg’s reference to soc.culture.turkish) is when I began engaging Turkish historical revisionists publicly on UseNet, I received many angry emails (and some quaint, handwritten letters) from Armenians stating almost universally (1) The genocide should not be debated because it gives the impression there is an issue with the historical record, and (2) who are you to present the Armenian argument. After the first year or so of debate, these nasty emails stopped.
In my opinion, Turkish diplomacy incorrectly calculated the Armenian diaspora would scuttle the Protocols, subsequently forcing Armenia into a pariah status for playing outside accepted norms of international behavior. This would allow Turkish and Western PR to rip into Armenia and Armenians. Russia would then turn the real screws on Armenia’s population. None of this happened.
Knowing the Turkish myth that there is a huge Armenian conspiracy in at play at all times, it would not surprise me that the Turkish intelligence officers reading this right now are really confused. For all they know the Armenian Diaspora outmaneuvered Turkish diplomacy -- or maybe not.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
To David G. (and everybody else as well)
I am increasingly wondering if this agreement made under pressure is really not about trade as we normally think of it, but rather an opening up of borders in order to assist in pipeline/transport of oil and gas as well as a possible opening up of routes for supplying a greater amount of forces in Afghanistan (since it looks likely that the US may be expanding there). That is, I'm beginning to believe this is the reason for external pressure.
Also, this might be a very simple way of looking at things, but in the photos of the protocol signing, I can't help but be drawn to the two individuals standing together to the right: Hillary Clinton and Sergey Lavrov. They both look awfully pleased together. I understand why Mrs. Clinton would be. I'm wondering why Mr. Lavrov looks that way.
Please let me know, all of you, your opinions about this. Thank you.
Tavit Tavitian wrote:
>Given this, what do you disagree with me so vehemently? Does your disagreement really mean >you wish I were a zero-sum, rejectionist?
Dear Tavit,
With all due respect, if you scroll back you'll see that I asked you a questiuon which you ignored. That is OK, it does not say anything about who is right and who is wrong. That is why I concluded that we are not in communication because we inhabit different intellectual spaces (possibly because of character, profession, etc. - again nothing wrong). However now you are inviting me to re-open this discussion. I find this a bit odd, as you still have not responded to Henry Theriault - he has challenged you very clearly, within your intellectual space. Or you think it easier to pick up a fight with me because the stalemate is guaranteed? His article is the most read, while yours is the most commented. Given the two-man band condemning the Diaspora on your discussion, I am sure you understand the context of the comments you get.
Don't get me wrong about Henry - I may not totally agree with his style, but he has made abundantly clear what I have been trying to show to Artur referring him to Robert Fisk. They make the same point in different ways.
>Out of curiosity, what “special treatment” does Artur Martirosyan deserve?
I think I do not need to satisfy your curiosity in any more explicit way, please see above.
I am trying to write all this in a very simple way, perhaps that will help understand why hagopn refers to you and Artur as "technicians".
I hope I have helped.
Greg
Knowing the Turkish myth that there is a huge Armenian conspiracy in at play at all times, it would not surprise me that the Turkish intelligence officers reading this right now are really confused. For all they know the Armenian Diaspora outmaneuvered Turkish diplomacy — or maybe not.
:-) I have noticed a conspicuous silence.
On a more serious note, if we have outmaneuvered the backroom dealings, it is only because we have stuck with truth and justice, against all odds and material power on the opposite side. There is no zero-sum game: there is room for both the wisdom of serpents and the innocence of doves. They are both necessary. Henri Theriault has a valid and important point, particularly when it comes to an imbalance of power.
To: David Davidian
Re. “It is immaterial that the players were Sargsyan and Nalbandyan or Gul and Davutoglu — the pressure had to be addressed by whomever was in a position to negotiate for Armenia and Turkey.”
As the one who’s read with enjoyment your excellent essay “Juxtaposition in the Black Garden,” with all due respect and with a relish of bewilderment, as well, at the changed tone and trend of your current analysis on protocols, I couldn’t disagree more with the statement above. It is material who is in a position to negotiate. At the time the pressure intensified Gul and Sargsyan were in disparate positions with Gul being a lawfully elected president that enjoys popular support and Sargsyan having come to power as a result of vote rigging and using a military force. There appears to be a direct connection between legitimacy of a leader and the degree of his ability to resist pressure, a correlation that extrapolated evidently on the “protocol process” (borrowing the term from Henry Theriault’s brilliant article “The Final Stage of Genocide: Consolidation”). Power is not unique determinant in geopolitics. As Theriault rightfully contends, moral legitimacy is a great force, too. This is exactly what Sargsyan lacked. And this is why son of a gun blinked. I’m more than confident that had Armenians had a truly national leader at this juncture, the impact of external pressure could have been less detrimental to Armenia.
Paul Kadian
London, UK
Greg,
I do not care what labels they put on opponents in your shop. You can call me a technician. I am not a philosopher. I read the philosopher's article. it is not about policy, it is not about philosophy, it is an amalgamation of points that easily touch the buttons of an average Armenian. I already have made clear I thought what the dangers of all-or-nothing stance are. Let me reiterate for you - neither you, nor the philosopher will be at the receiving end of the nothing. And that for me explains the unbearable lightness of mind with which some people talk about how bad things are or how unfair the world is and how they can continue to watch shadow from their Platonian cave. However, policy making is a in different operates in different categories unknown to you and your clique of Nalbandyans\Boyadjians. For policy-making it is not enough to say how bad things are (symptoms), it is not enough to go rigorously, impartially and systematically after the causes, it is not enough even to know the best practices out there. It is imperative to be able to compare your walkaway options and the option on the table. And guess what? Good policy-making is about taking the option on the table if it is better and adding value to it. You keep referring to this thesis, now a point, made by Fisk that has mesmerized you. What is it? Can you repeat it in your own words? Let's have it, don't be afraid.
Dear Paul,
These arguments have been advanced by several people in abstract.
'This is exactly what Sargsyan lacked [legitimacy]. And this is why son of a gun blinked. I’m more than confident that had Armenians had a truly national leader at this juncture, the impact of external pressure could have been less detrimental to Armenia.'
Not only is this highly hypothetical and not necessarily true in every political case, this argument is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to the protocols. Even if we imagine that Armenia did have this immaculate leader whoever that may be from our deck of leaders, he or she would face the same players with exactly the same set of interests and instruments one too many for crippling Armenian interests and the same dilemma - negotiate and protect our interests in the best possible ways or play ostrich and say no understanding the consequences. You can continue to argue in abstraction and in the realm of hypothesis but the reality won't change just because shadows look differently from the cave.
Dear Dr. Grigoryan,
I will try to be brief.
1. The only material relevant to the Armenian-Turkish relations I got on your website was that flyer on. I did not claim it was your organization.
2. It seems to me that the only model of negotiation that you know is the axiomatic positional bargaining (distributive) . Hence your recommendation - do not engage Turks, focus on the economy and human rights. I am not against either. The problem is in that you have not "spotted the game". It was not a bilateral process between Armenia and Turkey. This process was driven by three more players and the status quo is not in their interests. Janine noticed that on the picture from the ceremony. If it were just about our choice with all the risks and uncertainties, you may have found me in your own camp. But it was not only our choice, it was a different game and, again, we'd end up saying no not to Turkey but to Russia, US and EU. In this context the policy of avoiding and waiting out until Armenia gets more powerful would not work. The only approach would be to engage these powers on their interests and make sure in the process that options on the table are better than our alternative (walkaway option). My entire argument in this forum and Davidian's article are about that very simple proposition - at the given moment Armenia does not have strong alternatives to say no.
3. I am not an economist but it amuses me how many people today in Armenia speak about competitiveness. You may not know this but Dr. Manuk Hergnyan may tell where and under what circumstances he among the very first Armenians had exposure to Porter's theory. It was at the time when LTP and Department of state were saying that a landlocked country like Armenia did not have any opportunities to develop without agreeing to a settlement on Azeri terms. I had some consultancy engagement with Monitor Company in 1999 and that was the first entry of competitiveness theory to Armenia. I promised to keep it short - the border opening will have not only economic impact (last I saw Porter's analysis was suggesting that Armenia's competitiveness would gain from open borders) but also political. I am curious about economic issues but I don't want you and others to miss the important political issue - Azerbaijan is losing with this move its second most important alternative in negotiations over Karabakh. They understand that. Turks understand that. Unfortunately, most Armenians don't.
4. I have not argued for massive trade liberalization. Not in this forum, nor anywhere else. It is enough to look at what liberalized trade has done to the Georgian agriculture (up to 70% arable lands are not in use) to understand what challenges we may be facing soon. Georgian agricultural produce has been simply unable to compete against Turkish imports. I recognize the threats but I do not agree with the option that we could wait out until the better days. We could do that only if the choice were under our control entirely.
5. I too would like to see a competent, well educated, dedicated to the nation Armenian government. We may differ on how that may be possible. I for one do not believe that you can do that by relying on a corrupt instrument, in our case LTP. My motives are should have obvious to you - 1) I want to push people to think about policy options instead of engaging on emotional or moralistic grounds; 2) I can see how the widening chasm is quickly acquiring the same dynamic that the nation experienced in early 2008. It is not in our national interests. It is not going to solve any problems.
Cheers.
Paul Kadian wrote:
"As the one who’s read with enjoyment your excellent essay “Juxtaposition in the Black Garden,” with all due respect and with a relish of bewilderment, as well, at the changed tone and trend of your current analysis on protocols, I couldn’t disagree more with the statement above."
I am sorry to have disappointed you. However, I did use the same logic to expose deWall as I did in unraveling the basis for this Protocol. There is no inconsistency. I would not hesitate to properly debunk another “DeWaal special” using the same logic.
"It is material who is in a position to negotiate. At the time the pressure intensified Gul and Sargsyan were in disparate positions with Gul being a lawfully elected president that enjoys popular support and Sargsyan having come to power as a result of vote rigging and using a military force. There appears to be a direct connection between legitimacy of a leader and the degree of his ability to resist pressure,"
Clearly, one would not want dolts negotiating for either the Turks or Armenians. I was not referring to capability nor even legitimacy. Rather, I was referring to the ability to address the pressures that are being applied to both states. If that was not clear, let me attempt to clarify. The existential conditions on Armenia would be identical no matter who was negotiating for Armenia. In that sense it would make no difference if Sargsyan-Nalbandyan or some other teams were negotiating. I have to conclude that many people think that if Sargsyan-Naldbanyan were replaced with "better people" the pressure exerted on Armenia would either be different or disappear. This is ridiculous.
"a correlation that extrapolated evidently on the “protocol process” (borrowing the term from Henry Theriault’s brilliant article “The Final Stage of Genocide: Consolidation”). Power is not unique determinant in geopolitics. As Theriault rightfully contends, moral legitimacy is a great force, too. This is exactly what Sargsyan lacked. And this is why son of a gun blinked. I’m more than confident that had Armenians had a truly national leader at this juncture, the impact of external pressure could have been less detrimental to Armenia."
The conditions under which both Armenia and Turkey find themselves under today, with respect to the Protocol, are at least a function of events starting with fall of the Soviet Union. The clock can not be turned back. It is little help that hindsight is 20/20. The amount of nationalism a leader possesses is exclusive of the ability to actually understand and defend their state’s interest with respect to the art of the possible.
The possibilities of “moral legitimacy” go exactly far as they can be defended.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Greg wrote:
“Tavit Tavitian wrote:
>Given this, what do you disagree with me so vehemently? Does your disagreement really mean >you wish I were a zero-sum, rejectionist?
Dear Tavit,
With all due respect, if you scroll back you’ll see that I asked you a questiuon which you ignored. That is OK, it does not say anything about who is right and who is wrong. That is why I concluded that we are not in communication because we inhabit different intellectual spaces (possibly because of character, profession, etc. – again nothing wrong). However now you are inviting me to re-open this discussion.”
It was not my intention to ignore you. There were a few days I didn’t post for it appeared continued participation in this forum was a waste of time repeating the same statements. I resumed commenting and your question and those of others slipped by.
“I find this a bit odd, as you still have not responded to Henry Theriault – he has challenged you very clearly, within your intellectual space. Or you think it easier to pick up a fight with me because the stalemate is guaranteed?”
No, that was no my intention, nor have I judged your capabilities.
His article is the most read, while yours is the most commented. Given the two-man band condemning the Diaspora on your discussion, I am sure you understand the context of the comments you get. Don’t get me wrong about Henry – I may not totally agree with his style, but he has made abundantly clear what I have been trying to show to Artur referring him to Robert Fisk. They make the same point in different ways.
I will respond to Henry Theriault’s thesis.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Garen,
I have to say I'm surprised by all the gloom and doom I read in this and other Armenian publications. Nothing changed!
Economically: Yes, the border will be opened eventually but if Armenia finds the economic effects harming itself, well, it can just close the border again. Or put high tariffs on Turkish goods.
Genocide recognition: no official body can go against the common consensus of decades' worth of scholarship; sooner or later even Turkey will recognize it (disclosure: I am Turkish). At first leaders will be afraid to utter the "G" word but instead "express sorrow and regret" or some other silly euphemism. Then a little while later you'll see people among the intelligentsia take the lead and genocide acceptance will become the norm.
I can understand much scepticism on what I just wrote. How can all this happen in a country that has closed its ears and eyes to the rest of the world for 90 years? The last decade has witnessed great changes in Turkish society, ranging from the general increase in prosperity to the rise of a broad civil society. Turkey is not the Turkey of 20 years ago.
Borders: well, what did you expect? You can press for recognition, for monetary compensation, for many other things, but you cannot change countries borders short of a war, certainly not this border. It was never going to happen; its strange the realization is sinking only now.
A normal person could not expect other developments.
The author is right. It is an excellent analysis.
1) Protocols are not a product of negotiation between Armenia and Turkey alone, the three other parties catering to their own interests are US, Russia and EU. All-or-nothing approach in this context would have detrimental consequences for Armenia and Artsakh. Each of these players separately and collectively could make the no very costly for Armenia. This is not a place to discuss sensitivities and vulnerabilities of Armenia and Artsakh.
2) Comparing the context of international negotiations with civil rights movements or battles -- strangely nobody mentioned Avarair and Sardarapat to add pathos to the discussion -- is both out of place and irresponsible. Nor am I surprised to see the old aphorism in action - Armenians can win battles but lose everything in diplomacy. Armenia's enemies (Turkey and Azerbaijan) could be more than content, had Armenia chosen a no in this case, thus inviting diplomatic, political, economic and even military pressure on Armenia and Artsakh from the troika.
3) Finally, by way of advice why do not you preach these ethical principles to the American policy-makers. Let United States set examples of ethics and moral legitimacy (whatever is meant by the term here) influencing geopolitics. Armenia is much better off calculating risks and acting prudently out of self-interest as is the case with most, if not all, nation-states. For me the sermon of all-or-nothing in international politics is amoral, especially when those advancing these approaches are not going to face the music of consequences. You clearly would not be at the receiving end of "the nothing" if Armenia were to exercise their all or nothing approach in the international regional politics.
A thoughtful discussion that has as one point the downside of a binary conception of the issue. A binary issue conception that villifies the nonconforming views leaves little opportunity to forge a common and united position. It is also the case in some instances of absolutist views that they proceed from invalid assumptions. An example, in these discussions I have read variations of the claim that signing of the protocols is the end of the Armenian people. Of course any argument that proceeds from that assumption casts anyone supporting the protocols as a traitor and enemy. Unnecessary divisiveness driven by a obviously false premise. The Armenian culture and identity has proven itself very hardy and claims of doom are a bit extended.
Thanks Mr. Kotchikian for some well needed perspective.
And, of course, Davidian never suggested ...
"that Armenia would face military force for not signing the protocols in the way that Serbia faced bombing because it was participating in genocide makes no sense."
This is a figment of professor's wild imagination. I already commented on this in the other forum - I read Miloshevich in Davidian's text as the epitome of the all-or-nothing approach in international politics in the recent years. He took that stance on Bosnia and later signed a much worse deal in Dayton for Bosnian Serbs. Serbs of Kraina paid a dear price for that same all-or-nothing posturing of Slobo - sloboda ili smrt. One must have a really brainwashed mind to believe that Yugoslavia was bombed by NATO because Serbs were "participating in genocide". As they unveiled a monument of president Clinton in Prishtina the other day, I could not but think that to be more accurate about their own reality the grateful Albanians needed at least the bust of Monica next to the bronze statue of the US President. On a more serious note, follow US interests. The second largest US airbase in Europe soon will be Bondsteel in Kosovo. Of course, most Americans (not Albanians, btw) may still believe that US led NATO crucified Yugoslavia out of ethical principles to prevent "humanitarian catastrophe".
We should have seen this coming, it's going to be like Israel and Palestine, back and forth always with tricks to make one party look to be the problem.
And now we should have an even clearer picture of Armenia's leadership and what he's good for...
Davidian's Response to Henry Theriault
Professor Theriault’s response to my analytic piece advocates surrender to the illusion the Turks have won based on the his assumption that Armenians are incapable of defending themselves as the world changes. I reject claims that Armenians are losers. Many of us on the tenacious side of humanity remain undaunted and will continue to defend the Armenian nation, its interests, work for genocide recognition and will never end the fight for genocide reparations.
In Theriault’s introductory paragraph, rather than refuting the 15 pages of hard analysis I offered explaining why the Protocols exist and moreover what they say, don’t say, and why, Theriault tells his readers that the Protocol text cannot stand on its own, because it cannot be properly analyzed as written and must be “interpreted” within a larger context. Who is going to be the interpreter? Since no time and space limits have been stated by Theriault, such contextual setting can include the entire history of mankind or even as early the origin of the universe, say 14 billion years ago. If this sounds hysterical, it is in a long line of hysterics starting with the illusion the articles of the Treaty of Kars are clearly spelled out in the Protocol and Armenia gave into a plethora of illusionary Turkish preconditions.
Rather than encouraging Armenians to fight for recognition and genocide reparations, Theriault provides Armenians with the rational under which his readership can conclude that Armenians are in the “Final Stage of Genocide”. Such defeatism is totally uncalled for!
Theriault provides a definition of rationality, “The question of rationality is simply the question of whether one provides reasoning (facts and logical connection of the facts to the position advocated) to support one’s position. Theriault clearly rejects the Protocols, yet provides no facts or logical connection to any consequences in such rejection and moreover his hope throughout his paper is that Armenians simply say “no, no, no” as an ethical alternative.
The “crude analogy” (see my paper, paragraph 4) I made to primitive statesmanship exhibited by Serbia’s Milosevic by rejecting any form of reasonable dialog was turned into an unnecessary comparison of Armenian and Serbian societies, roles of victim and perpetrator, etc. My statement is quite clear and simple. Why Theriault needs to divert his audience down such a path is unclear.
Theriault assumes Armenians have lost the ability to make their case against Turkey. In doing so he perpetuates the myth that Armenians will always lose when engaging Turks. There is no evidence for this and one might ask Professor Theriault, why he dares to squander our political capital.
The Professor appears to be a proponent of the school of zero-sum negotiation, by making the case that Turks are non-repentant genocide deniers. This is non-sequitur. Many Turks are non-repentant genocide deniers. Many Turks are also Muslim. Many Turks also wear clothes. None of these reasons justify demanding all-or-nothing as an alternate policy to what exists.
Theriault ends his response to my analysis not by having refuted the historical basis for my explanation of the Protocol, but by having us believe that “all-or-nothing- ethics-based approach that rejects coersion by the pressure of “interests” is anything but irrational.” I would ask him and his readers what happened to “Miayn zenkov ga Hayots prgutiun”?
I demand that the Professor and all of his followers provide us a foreign policy alternative to what exists today based on an “all-or-nothing- ethics-based approach that rejects coersion by the pressure of “interests”. And then when you are done tell us how you are going to defend such moral legitimacy. If this cannot be done, then Theriault’s entire argument is irrational.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Thia article offers no solutions and fails to explain why AG recognition is "misguided"
I am one of the few Armenians who support Sarkisian position. It takes courage to break out of perennial victim mold we created ourselves for last thirty yrs and we must find solutions for dead end problems.Millions spent on AG could of been invested in RA,stimulate the economy there so we don't have to read about our women working as prostitues in Turkey!
Being Armenian is greater then a tragady but unfortunatly this massage hardly gets understood properly!
To: David Davidian
I was referring to legitimately elected people, not just vaguely “better people,” but, of course, you appreciate the difference. Just a remark, needless perhaps.
I can’t say, and I didn’t as a matter of fact, that if Sargsyan-Naldbanyan duo was replaced with “better people,” as you say, the pressure exerted on Armenia would either be different or disappear. I was referring to their ability to resist pressure, not the pressure per se being different. As for “existential conditions on Armenia being identical no matter who was negotiating for Armenia,” I’m afraid you failed to show why a team of different leaders—freely elected, better governing, and popular both in Armenia and the Diaspora—shouldn’t be willing to attempt to fight, using this political capital, for a better option on the table, even if we admit existential conditions were identical? An autocratic leader has more to lose and fear, therefore shouldn’t he by definition be more susceptible to pressure?
I as well reckon that existential conditions before October 10 appear to have been more favourable on Armenia. The pace of the international recognition of genocide; Turkey’s need to demonstrate to Europe the reaps of her “Zero Problems with Neighbours” policy; the autonomous, that is, distinctly decoupled from Armenia’s relations with Turkey, internationally mediated settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, to name the few.
By the way, by "national leader" I meant a leader of a nation state in a true sense of the word, and not a "nationalistic" leader.
Thanks for replying, anyway.
“If it were just about our choice with all the risks and uncertainties, you may have found me in your own camp. But it was not only our choice, it was a different game and, again, we’d end up saying no not to Turkey but to Russia, US and EU.” Sorry for asking too many questions, these protocols humiliate me...
This argument, or variations of it, about lack of our choices and pathological fear for saying “no” to Russia, U.S. and EU has been floating in the air for some time. While I realize the possible consequences of a “no” in general terms, my question is why we should have feared to at least try to negotiate a better deal? For refusing to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey, a behavior that Russia, U.S. and EU are displeased with? For closing Armenia’s border with Turkey, a behavior that Russia, U.S. and EU fervently oppose for their own geopolitical, economic, and strategic interests? For reluctance to accept the fact that Armenians slaughtered innocent Turks, a behavior that impedes justice that Russia, U.S. and EU are pioneering most efficiently all over the world? For linking the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict with Armenia’s relationship with Turkey that creates a deadlock in the broader region for the same Russian, U.S. and EU geopolitical, economic, and strategic interests? What is it that Armenian negotiators should have been fearful of in the context of Armenia’s positive stance on many regional issues?
Oops, "Sorry for asking too many questions, these protocols humiliate me…" should have placed at the end of the comment.
To those that have some critism about this article: I understand that no one is perfect and no one can truly understand and put themselves in the shoes of those who is Armenian living in Armenia. HOWEVER, because the overal consenses is that no matter what side of the spectrum you stand on, or what you believe is happening or can happen, the bottom line is we have individuals like Professor who agrees to voice their opinion and show that there are people who are willing to at least speak up.... (regardless if their theories, analysis or recommendations are a bit out of context or do not include every single detail that everyone would like to see)... Unfortunately, one voice can't make a difference; however one voice plus another plus another and another... will create a roar... and I think having non-Armenians to join the fight and start educating them more about our politics, culture and nation will to some extent help us.
Millions of non-Armenian living in the United States don't even know what Armenian means let alone Genocide, Turkey and Armenia Protocols, ect.. So when I see a non-Armenian at least putting an effort and time to provide what he thinks is a great step toward the right direction. That is why we commend the professor for it..
I do agree that all for nothing for Armenia could lead to a more disasterous events than not and many will perish because of it as it will mean a war... I agree that US need to set example of what is ethics and moral which it has not done so far and I am very upset about it; but the professor is stating his analysis and we need to respect that..
G
One topic at a time: "Forever Russia, With Love"
Avetis, this is far too much faith in Russian invincibility. Look at little Chchnya, some say an experiment, a litmus test if you will, on Russia by the various western powers (as the number of western operatives among Chechen units was remarkable). Perhaps for the next 10 years of so this might continue to be the case in that region, but there is a lot of background and foreground work being done to weaken Russia's hold on their traditional (since Catherine II) Eurasian holdings.
Some of the background work consists of the slight toward "nationalizing" the Central Asian republics. Khazakhstan's electorate already disfavors ethnic Russians at the popular level. We have seen this have effect on their political system where certain ethnic Russian officials have lost their place due to their ethnicity (and I suspect it has more to do with western operatives than local popular reaction). In other words, while we have "open minded, avante garde" individuals ridiculing "Armenian nationalists," we have the entire Turkic block glorifying their racists as heroes. There is an obvious imbalance there in our "relationship." The irony is that one of the most knowledgeable and vocal "experts" on this "Kazakhization of Kazakhstan" now denies this to be fact only because he is part of the pro-protocol block. Hypocrisy is rampant.
Who do you think supports and finances this sort of work? Russia's current resurgence as a world power after a slight hybernation under Yeltsin caught many by surprise, but if one analyzes the reasons for it at a global scale (which, if you are interested, I can point you to some good writing on the topic) , one will understand that the strengthening of Russia was also partly due to external support from the EU side (after, of course, Britain finally decided it was 'A Go Green" to join). This tells me that this is an intentional zero-sum game, while gnawing in the background (at the popular level, at the grass roots indoctrination layer) on the imperial holdings of Russia are a constant. I can vouch for the fact that Boyadjian knows a lot more than you think about this material. Boyadjian's message is that it is only a matter of time before Russia's half-blind political strong-arming will fail. (NATO is in Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm )
Anyone buy Russian made microchips, motherboards, laptops, calculators, GPS devices, cars, planes (aside from Hugo Chavez and his 6 or so planes, 90 or so tanks, etc, don't know the number) ? No you say? No industrial and technological output (aside from 3 or 4 software companies grossing in the 100 millions to lower billions). Is it all about mineral exports? Yes, it seems so.
Russia's current economy also consists mostly of non-industrial output, and it is an austerely oligarch model with no tranparency in government worth mentioning. This always, always results in severe brain drains. Its gross national product and per capita income are lower than they were during its brief apex in 1913 on real dollar terms. You can find this in the UNDPA's (this is not a western organ, but is one in which Russia plays a significant role as well) painfully extensive economic analysis of Russia from 2004. Not much has changed since 2004. The birth rate for ethnic Russians in lower than ever, in the negatives. Birth rate of Muslim ethnicities is in the 2 percentile or higher, and at this rate the demographics of the Russian Federations will ripen it for dismemberment, guaranteed. The overall "stagnant" birth rate is currently -0.02 (that's MINUS 0.02). Emigration rate of Russians dropped after Putin's first year in office, but until then the reduction of the Russian Federations population was en par with that of Poland from 1990 to 1999, about 2% per annum (Economist), which was a staggering blow for this country in terms of brain drain, as the higher caliber populations were leaving, same as Armenia, sadly.
Regardless of what Russia's bleak future says in the long term (unless they make key changes, which doesn't seem likely at this time) the last time we put too much hope on Russian support, we ended up losing our own military potential when it truly could have made a difference. (Refer to this http://www.ararat-center.org/upload/files/Razm_&_Anvtang_16.pdf if your Armenian is up to par)
Today military potential does not have much meaning, but economic potential does. The best ally in this area is the diaspora, no doubt, as a proven fact. Diasporan and expatriates like us have sent in funds and helped to often our own detriment (trust me, there is a lot of sacrifice) in droves to keep Armenia alive. The potential is in our unity as a nation, and the ridicule of any Nationalist Armenian, any well meaning individual, should be considered a crime. The GDP usually consists of funds sent in from abroad, by the way, according to some honest economists, which is in the low billions by now.
You mention Russian imperialism and their role in saving Armenia. Without going into too much detail, let me jus that the Russian empire under Peter I refused to participate in a campaign into Armenia for an independent Armenia until Armenians could manage to raise a sizable force. This delay was a huge blow to Armenians. Some consider this one of the reasons there was bloody dissension in the Armenian forces and Melikdoms of the time that caused furthe r Ottoman incursion into Armenian territory. No one will invest in you if you don't invest in yourself. Today we must muster economic and diplomatic strength. I am not sure how to exploit this situation. I have been reading this protocol business, and I have been seeing exaggerations and lies on both sides; but more so from the protocols proponents. At least, now, after reading and thinking through all this mess, we can find a way to exploit this diplomatic moment to our advantage if it is possible. Maybe that's why Aznavour signed the open letter. Maybe he knows something we don't--:)
So the debates went on, and I as an exasperated diasporan amateur (married to an expatriate) watched on, sometimes getting his feet wet, sometimes getting a bloody nose, sometimes shaking hands. This is the best that we can do as far as "expertise" is concerned, is it? Not impressive it is, and quite hazardous. We are told repeatedly that Russia, the EU, and the US are the brokers of this deal, and that not only do we face immense dangers upon "walking away" from this deal, but also that the broker "Troika" will somehow guarantee that Turkey will honor the deal due to "diplomatic obligations."
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We are told how “wonderful” the protocols are because “the Artakh and Border issues have been decoupled”, and this is the only important one the “pro” faction keeps spitting out repeatedly. Repetition of anything, however, does not make it true. To quote Lenin and say “repetition is the mother of knowledge” should alarm the average individual into being wary of such insistence and repetition. I was reading an article by a state controlled organ no doubt, which repeated, I mean almost verbatim, what the standardized (so it seems with commonly used lexicon to boot, “all or nothingers,” “those diasporan couch warriors without vital interests in Armenia” and so on) proponents of this deal say: I mean every single item matched: 1) Decoupling of Artsakh and Border, 2) the Diaspora does not have vital interest and is inconsiderate, 3) The 3 major powers, Russia, the US, and the EU as brokers will guarantee compliance on behalf of Turkey and Armenia, among others. They managed to leave out all the meat, just as our two proponents systematically do. They of course do not mention the “historic commission” and its obvious goal by all parties involved, which our proponents here do (to their credit is it?).
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Sure, Russia has recognized the genocide. Although the Duma’s declaration equates the genocide against “the fraternal people the Armenians” with the “intent to destroy Russia” (powerful words, indeed, for a dying empire) http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.151/current_category.7/affirmation_detail.html, there are powerful interests in Russia and the rest of the FSU which want Turkish hegemony in Central Eurasia. Some say a suspected Mossad plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Mashkevich “who controls 25% of Kazakh economy” (which is substantial) is in support of the Kazakhization of Khazakhstan, which equals to the declaration and consolidation of Khazakhstan as a “nation state” effectively rendering the Russian population impotent and with it direct Russian influence. I cannot verify it, but where there is smoke, as I have said before and will say again, investigation is in order. I didn’t say panic, pandemonium, screaming in rabble rousing frenzy. I said INVESTIGATION by “technicians” and the like.
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We are essentially told by "experts" to agree that the world is flat again, despite the immense amount of data that says the Earth is in fact round and three dimensional, with depth. Turkey’s past record of total duplicity, of its ability to sidestep all agreements, its ability to switch political alliance will impeccable timing to carry forth its imperialist and murderous agenda, all these are to be ignored in this ‘brave new flat world.”
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Yet, concerns such as Turkey's re-ascendency as a regional behemoth are not only a possibility, but a probability. There are many a reason to believe for further duplicity, including starkly similar precedence, where Turkey will be able to escape the "diplomatic obligations" imposed on it by the "Troika," which merely spells out as "alliance" of some sort based on some half-baked "mutual interest on hydrocarbon and related territoriality" theory as written in the above article. Only (less than) a century ago, Turkey defied and defeated the Detente (another "Troika" of a sort) by making a second deal as a "socialist candidate state" with the newly Red colored Russia (interests and situations do indeed seem to be “dynamic” for some “powers” while being not so “dynamic” for others, but let the simplistic “technicians” deal with that one).
The Détente membership not only did not seek punitive measures against Turkey, but instead eventually accepted Turkey as a “valuable ally” to the point of rebuilding its military potential up to that of the “4th military in the NATO and 10th in the world.” (http://www.globalfirepower.com/) Turkey was in effect relieved of the burden of defeat put upon it by the Detente after the WWI, and Turkey capitalized on it further. Turkey not only has not paid for its war crimes, but in fact Turkey is now being further rewarded by 1) a pliant US to (yes) largely traditional British foreign policy 2) a Anglo-German club we call the “EU” (same as US, therefore), and 3) an arrogant but slowly rotting Russia (whose economy was intentionally reboosted for larger interests according to some very interesting analytic writings**) whose time as an empire is just not that long. (**Russia is like a “control” valve of some sort to US arrogance, and I can imagine out “techies” foaming at the mouth on this one.) Today, Turkey is again being handed a reward with “no precondition” to abandon any of its criminal gains. Nothing moral, nothing just, just global impotents and vampires.
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Turkey is again poised to gain from the current post-Cold War scenario with the strange mélange of “East-West” poles, “North-South” poles, religious poles, financial poles. Turkey now has multiple personality order, not disorder, but order. It is at once an Islamist “akhwan” in the OIC, securing multi-billion dollar deals (as an Islamic alliance for auto-manufacturing at a GRAND scale is coming up fast) with Islamist Iran, Malaysia, and so on, and a “secular democracy” with strong ties to NATO, to the point where Turkey “applies pressure on the US upon the latter’s total acceptance the Armenian genocide.” This makes the US potentially impotent (in Eurasia, where it counts, really) if such a block is activated and Turkey exploits the situation. It is also, in order to maintain its “solidarity” at the popular level, a military autocracy with regards to items such as “Turkishness” and so on, laws which will not be lifted, as one analyst said (I don’t remember his name, damnit – let the “techies” foam again), until Military power wanes and yields to true civilian government; which according to the same analyst is not likely.
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Turkey is spending millions on efforts to “Turkify” Central Asia, oh, excuse me, “Central Eurasia”. http://www.soros.org/initiatives/regions/central-eurasia http://www.indiana.edu/~ceus/ (ok, just google “Central Eurasia” and enjoy. No. No. Not you Techies). The controversies over ethnic identity of members of government and so on are signs of a growing anti-Russian popular front in all Turkic republics. The Central “Eurasian” project and the grass roots efforts on making this a “Turkic region” with all the pan-Turkist trimmings at the popular level (which means eventual political level), makes Russian predominance on this region precarious at best. This makes Russia again potentially impotent. The EU is at best a third party with no consequential influence in the Caucasus save for what the US, Britain, and Russia (at least for the time being, as a Frankenstein resuscitated being) sanction. Britain’s policies toward Russia have not changed (despite the “technician’s” repetition of the boring “dynamic interests” nonsense), and the historic (and unchanged, quite “static”) Turkophilia displayed by Britain in the past (and present) (not to mention German and quite “static” Turkophilia) essentially makes the EU a potential pro-Turkish and anti-Russian faction. Turkey will, with its very experienced and well-developed diplomatic corps and well-developed and budgeted (and politically dominant) military, find a way to avoid honoring even this deal, of course past the formal “compliance guidelines” and other theatrics.
It is imperative that we look at this from the longer term perspective. Any political thinker, (and thinking is a prerequisite here, not “technical termite mound building”), can tell the signs of multi-stage preparations by given powers for the attainment of a set of goals. The Central Eurasia toponym by itself is an indicator of a political ambition. The "Neo-Ottoman" is a similar concept spelled out in more concrete political terms by a "futurologist." The "futurologist" commissioned by an intelligence apparatus is usually someone hired to acculturate people “for entertainment’s sake” and as (not so entertainingly) required reading, particularly newly prepared pupils of “policy schools” such as Fletcher into thinking in a certain futuristic pattern. I happened to know this for a fact, as the matter of fact. No matter how unlikely it is, the “futurologists” and other political scenarists are part of the political science or diplomacy school pupil’s diet. The low level "poli-techies" will tell us that this is "nonsense and useless," and they will be loved and cherished by the high-level controllers very much so. The high levellers usually will endorse the low "poli-techies" while the latter intimidate any sentinel who might object and forewarn the potential victim public, mostly with the use of bogus “credentials” and meaningless (and off topic) citations as their weapon. This is the situation we have here, I believe, where there are those who think “as they are required” in order to throw the Armenian populations into confusion. Thus we have this saying: “Literate dolts have less insight than illiterate thinkers.”
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Let me say that we need to be careful who we believe in this instance. It’s easy to claim “expertise” by quoting news articles. "Expertise in negotiations" can mean, for example, participation in the low level negotiations between Jewish settlers and Palestinians farmers who are fighting over where the sewage pipes go between towns. They then call in a "conflict management firm" who dispatches the salaried (or on commission) “conflict manager on shift” to settle the "conflict" over this sh*t pipe. However, negotiations over a sh*t pipe is a good resume item for working as a mid level consultant, but does neither give one the ability to judge geopolitical players, their controlling interests, nor the ability to measure things within a longer context than one's own digestion cycle.
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As to Armenia’s own “abilities” in thwarting damage or particularly in properly exploiting this dubious but potent (if, again, exploited properly) diplomatic “moment”, I just have to say that the level of utter incompetence displayed by successive administrations in 1) securing independence in – well – practically everything from immigration policy, to military, to economy, to diasporan relations, to Internet counter intelligence propaganda, Internet and Computer Standardization, language standardization, and so on, and so forth, not to mention serving as the proper center to represent all Armenians…. One can only sigh with despair on the probabilities that we will be either forced to be at best even more of a Russian colony or at worst a shared sandwich (as I mentioned Shant Haryiunian’s analysis earlier in the comments section.) They have no diplomatic prowess or insight, and they have no idea what the hell to do with an economy. What in the world can we expect aside from becoming a fourth rate colony out of this “process”?
Thank you for perhaps the best article I’ve read on this issue.
A few supporting thoughts (and response to Mr. Arthur Martirosyan.)
First, a note about realpolitik: No social movement, as far as I know, has endured without having to resist serious pressure, either in the form of physical violence, economic strangling, or political threats. What we’re involved in is a social movement – or, it should be – and we should expect this kind of pressure from the U.S., Russia, Turkey, the OSCE, as well as, the government of Armenia. Realpolitik respects neither truth nor justice, and therefore, perpetuates the very injustices it seeks to eliminate through “realistic and rational” measures.
The comparisons to the civil rights movement and India’s resistance against British colonialism are not only appropriate, but crucial in our understanding of the Armenian-Turkish relationship and any prospect for change. In most successful nonviolent social movements, victory was achieved because of this “all or nothing” and relentless approach. Were there vicious consequences before eventual victory? Absolutely -- one can recall the burning down of houses, killings, water hoses, dogs, and batons that became the very symbols of white racism and brutality in America. Despite these mammoth challenges, the movement succeeded party because of : (1) an absolutism on the part of the leadership in their demands, even at the cost of their lives; and (2) a serious ground swell and concerted mobilization, including nonviolent direct action, i.e. civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the Armenian community, we lack both. I need not dwell on the Armenian government’s “leadership.” Suffice it to say that Sargisyan said something in Turkey to the effect of “I didn’t go the Diaspora to get their permission, but to tell them of my government’s decision.” The leaders that I’m referring to sit not in Parliament but operate in our civil society.
The second point is a serious issue and deserves attention by our intellectuals, leaders, and concerned Armenians. In short, we lack discipline and theoretical grounding in our movement. Although there were multiple protests against the protocols, there is a gaping void in our communities about what it is that we want beyond the obvious recognition of the genocide. We’re united in what we’re against (genocide denial), but recognition by the American government as our only form of real, unified struggle is simply not enough. What’s more, the way we go about this “struggle” – which is hardly that in my opinion, as sending a webfax is the extent of most Armenians' efforts – is inadequately thought out, and has proven to be ineffective for long term healing. For years, we’ve been demanding that Turkey recognize the genocide by vilifying the very notion of “the Turk.” Although in private conversations, many of us distinguish between the Turkish people and their government, we rarely attempt to make that distinction public, thereby pushing away the invaluable support our cause may have received from segments of Turkish society (which personally, I know exist). Rather than create deeper and more painful rifts between Armenians and Turks, our approach needs to shift towards love and healing relationships. And this shift is not cosmetic, not merely about our tactics, but a deep transformation in our perceptions and attitudes. This means that we strengthen our cause and we struggle for recognition, while understanding that the enemy is not Turkish society, but denial itself. What's more, we attract Turks to our collective struggle by reaching out to them. This is not as easy as it may read: 95 years of trauma have challenged our ability to accept deep transformation.
Additionally, we must be prepared for the time that we do succeed. I’ll paraphrase one of Martin Luther King’s most relevant lessons to our case: When racism is defeated, we must not humiliate the white man, but extend our arms to embrace him when he falls. This is the only way a constructive relationship, free of resentment or vengeance, can be built. Similarly, denial will be defeated through our concerted effort (an effort, that as I’ve said needs a stronger theoretical foundation), and when we win, the Turk should not be humiliated or feel victimized. We bear a responsibility to embrace him/her. There is much that our communities can learn from the experience of so many oppressed groups around the world, and we also have the potential to become a shining light for many others. As Henry Theriault wrote, truth is our tool and MLK would add that “the arch of the universe is on the side of justice.” But let me quote a Jesuit priest who said, “you cannot beat someone over the head with the truth.” Rather, with the truth as our guiding light, intellectual openness in our minds, love in our hearts, serious societal dialogue, and grounded discipline we can overcome this injustice. For the skeptics who may put this or that descriptive label on this discussion, in an attempt to reject its validity, I should mention that a small group of us has experimented in Armenian nonviolent action, and our experiences have strongly buttressed the above written.
A final note: the protocols are purported to begin the normalization of Armenian-Turkish relations. By opposing the former, however, we don’t necessarily have to oppose the latter. To the contrary, our work must be centered on building healthy relationships between Armenians and Turks – relationships based on love, truth, humility, and the pursuit of the good of both peoples. This bottom-up approach is capable of creating real change for the majority. Protocols, on the other hand, like so many other top-down policies, will create change for those already in positions of power and at the detriment of most of society.
Thanks, again, for a great article.
Peace and Love,
Hasmig
well said!
Greg:
See "Davidian's Response to Henry Theriault" on that web page.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Nalbandyan, you are back with more nonsense and mud.
To quote Lenin and say “repetition is the mother of knowledge”
May be in Isfahan or wherever you were told history this was attributed to Lenin, but it has nothing to do with your all-or-nothing hero. Repetition is the mother of learning is an English proverb. Russians have a similar one - повторение мать учения. But it was not coined by Lenin.
I worked with senior advisors to top Israeli and Palestinian decision-makers. If you need evidence I will provide it on a condition - you will publicly apologize and withdraw from this debate. And I am not asking for your resume, I do not care. I can see a pompous dilettante when I see one.
"The “futurologist” commissioned by an intelligence apparatus is usually someone hired to acculturate people “for entertainment’s sake” and as (not so entertainingly) required reading, particularly newly prepared pupils of “policy schools” such as Fletcher into thinking in a certain futuristic pattern. I happened to know this for a fact, as the matter of fact."
What is next, Nalbandyan? You will tell us about your experience as an intelligence analyst? Let me ask you a more benign question that you have failed to answer repeatedly. Assuming Friedman and you as his faithful apprentice are right, the crystal ball shows the advance of the pan-Turkic era in Eurasia promoted obviously by Mossad, what is it that you are proposing to do? Please try to be as specific as you can but do not bother if the answer is stop the damn protocols.
Nalbandyan wrote:
"although the Duma’s declaration equates the genocide against “the fraternal people the Armenians” with the “intent to destroy Russia” (powerful words, indeed, for a dying empire)"
Had not I known the person who wrote the text of the Duma declaration, I could think that the deep multi-dimensional broad context thinker that Nalbandyan is finally found an explanatory argument. Not really. In fact, the intent to destroy Russia is not equated to the Armenian genocide, it is a reference to the pan-Turkist agenda of the Young Turks.
As I am reading some of Nalbandyan's prophetic writings, I can clearly see how Russia is dying and can not be reliable, Europeans are impotent, Anglo-Saxons are Turkophiles, Jews - no comment really necessary. Beyond the question what shall we do then there is a more immediate one who is Armenia's ally? Only Iran is left in Nalbandyan's intelligent analysis Armenia friendly... Interestingly enough, both Turkey and Azerbaijan would love that scenario - isolate Armenia and then put Armenia and Iran everywhere as a target ally.
false objectivity topped with a desperate ambition to be a "true" academic.
Dear Paul,
While it is obvious to me and perhaps all readers of these pages that it is better to have a democratically elected leader, be healthy than sick, rich than poor, the issue here is not about who'd be able to stand against pressure better. Those who are thinking in those terms make an assumption that if only we had a more legitimate (can it be more or less?) president he'd stay firm on his NO and fare better against any pressure. The issue is very different - could any other leader of Armenia (democratically elected, not corrupt or autocratic) without inviting any pressure make a deal that would satisfy most Armenia's and Artsakh's interests better than our walkaway option, meet the interests of other players and be acceptable for Turkey? I am not going to ask who that may be from the current deck of political leaders since it will drive us to a hypothetical discussion. But the question what would a better deal than the current protocols acceptable for all look like?
Mr. Theriault writes: "Denial has failed the Turkish state, and until April 2009 the pressure was mounting to deal with the legacy of the Armenian Genocide in a meaningful manner........The protocols are the last-ditch response by the Turkish government to protect and solidify the gains of the genocide."
If Mr. Theriault means that Turkish state was on track to acknowledge the genocide at some point in time and the protocols will now negate the acknowledgment then I think he has know way of knowing that outcome. My own view is the protocols may impact timing but not the ultimate acceptance of reality-it will happen. But similar to Mr. Theriault my view is a plausible outcome but not a certainty.
If Mr. Theriault means that beyond acknowledging the genocide Turkey would cede Western Armenia or some portion of Western Armenia then he has moved from a plausible outcome to a low probability outcome. If the measure is the regaining of the lost territory then the protocols can't make that outcome any less likely. Unless Turkey suffers dissolution from internal strife there is nothing that Armenia can do to compel the return of lost territory--there is no world forum that will compel Turkey to cede territory. Turkey's role and importance as a bridge to the Muslim world and a regional power is only growing.
An argument could be made that the smartest step Turkey could take is cede back to Armenia a large tract of land occupied by millions of Turks. This would then turn Armenia into a majority Turkish state thus making the pan-turkish desires a reality. One could chose to believe in the foreseeable future that Turkey would cede back the land and relocate millions of people and the diaspora will stream back to populate the territory. But, that really is a bridge too far.
Armenia needs to first concentrate on making the current state a viable entity that can attract and retain population. It needs to grow beyond being a client state with extreme dependency on Russia, US-Europe, and the Diaspora. Fundamentally, Armenia realizes they need an outlet to the world through Turkey to move towards increased viability and less dependency.
Dear Gayane,
The Armenian nation cannot afford a blunder based on the all-or-nothing approach advanced by the philosophy professor of Worcester College. For me all comparisons to the civil rights movement are absolutely irrelevant in this context. we are talking here about international relations and politics, not social movements. The only relevance I can see is to the process of recognition in the US, but not in the relations between Armenia and Turkey, Armenia and US, EU, Russia. An Armenian soldier on the front line in Karabakh facing the far better equipped enemy cannot put in his sniper rifle the abstract preachings about "ethics driving geopolitics" or bemoaning the evil nature of Realpolitik (a term that I did not use, anyway). And yes, Armenia does need loans and credits to sustain some of the vital areas of state functioning. I could go on and on but that is not really necessary - everybody should understand at least that level of arguments about Armenia's vulnerabilities vis-a-vis the troika of Russia, US and EU, had we chosen the course recommended by the proponents of all-or-nothing. This is not to say that Armenia has chosen material gains over the truth. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Neither Sargsyan nor the protocols are precluding you or anyone else to continue to stand up for the truth. The critics of the protocols are often saying that the very existence of a historical commission will allow opportunists in media and governments to use that as a pretext not to use the term genocide and even question it. However, those who need pretexts will always find those and most importantly what they choose to do cannot have bearing on where we stand. Unfortunately, for most American Armenians a formal recognition by the US is an end in itself as if things will change once the American president uses the g word. We still will need to work hard every day to uphold the truth of the genocide whether it is recognized by ten more countries or fifty, until Turkey recognizes it. If Obama tomorrow states that he cannot use genocide because there is a commission, it will be a lie. The existence of a commission whose agenda or modalities have not yet been defined cannot change what he and others already know about the subject matter. Adding more details to the picture will not change its essence - it was a genocide.
Dear moderators,
What happened to my response to Armine?
Why are people assuming that Prof. Theriault is not Armenian? We're so fixated on the last name that we forget that Armenians sometimes -- only sometimes -- have non-Ian/yan names.
Dear Arthur Martirosyan,
Your response to Armine was deleted because of the condescending tone and the veiled and not-so-veiled insults. Please revise your comment and stick to the points you want to make.
Thank you.
The Moderators
Dear Armine,
You are stating that there is some kind of pathology in not being able to tell all these Europeans, Russians and Americans – do not mess with mighty Armenia. If you don't mind, I will offer a short digression into our recent history.
The grand master provocateur LTP started his political career with the all-or-nothing dictum. Many students of history may not remember now that by 1991 the same LTP had brought Artsakh to the edge of a disaster — LTP was ready to sign Gorbachev’s new Union Treaty which would put permanently by then significantly de-Armenianized Artsakh under Azeri rule. Of course, many today are saying that it did not happen and that’s what matters. But it did not happen not because LTP, the most educated Armenian who speaks eight dead languages made the right calculations. It did not happen because of other developments that LTP himself did not believe in in 1991, namely the collapse of the Soviet Union.
I am not going to discuss in this forum Armenia’s vulnerabilities vis-a-vis the three centers of power. Some of those can be found in Davidian’s article. They should be obvious to the savvy readers of this newspaper. I would like all those observing this childish bravado of kaj Nazarutsiun to pause and think – what were the alternatives to saying yes to Russia, EU and US and what some of the detrimental consequences for Armenia and Artsakh may have been in that case.
Finally, dear Armine, I take my hat off before your courageous intelligence but could you spell out what a better deal would look like? I am asking because I sense your overwhelming confidence in your ability to negotiate a better deal, especially if you joined efforts with our own Nalbandyan who has great experience in international negotiations in Isfahan over public health and sewage pipes.
Very well written an explained. This matter of exclusive-Genocide-focus has been a thorn in my side since the 1980s.
To make a bit of an extreme statement, I almost don't care if Turkey fesses up to the Genocide, as long as Wilsonian borders are attained for a Republic of Armenia, and Turkey makes reparations to us- collectively and individually as applicable.
Dear Hagop Nalbandyan,
It is a very old technique to misrepresent the arguments of your opponents and smash them with the cardboard sword of a coach warrior. Let me address some of these misrepresentations for the record.
proponents of this deal say: I mean every single item matched:
I do not see myself or David Davidian for that matter as proponents of the deal. Rather, in my humble capacity of a technician I am trying to understand why that deal became possible, what were the alternative policy options, how the deal on the table compare to those options away from the table, and where this process opener deal could be improved and how Armenia could capture more value in satisfying national interests.
1) Decoupling of Artsakh and Border,
Almost correct, decoupling of the Karabakh process from that of Armenian-Turkish relations and weakening the Azeri alternatives to a deal on our terms. The protocols have unequivocally done that. Turkish conditions did not make it to the language of protocols. Turkey may choose to bring that issue back but they cannot re-write the protocols that Davutoglu signed. Other tactical ruses at ratification are possible but they can be addressed in the process - Armenia, too, has to ratify the protocols.
2) the Diaspora does not have vital interest and is inconsiderate,
This is simply not true if not to say a blatant lie. The problem is not in the interest or role but in the reaction and tone. I do not know what the thinking was behind the campaign of branding proponents of the deal and President Sargsyan as "davajan" but it was the least effective way to influence choice. I wrote several times about mistakes made by his team in delaying the consultative process. But for that process to hold it will take two to tango. Zero sum "chicken run" games produce disastrous outcomes and we had to live through one of those in March 2008. On the other hand Sassunian and other diasporans who come up with constructive policy recommendations (he did that again the other day) are more likely to be effective and efficient. It is not too late to start working on bridging the gap and provide leadership in developing a sufficient consensus internally before the process reaches more advanced stages. This is hard and may require face saving on both sides, but alternatives are much worse.
3) The 3 major powers, Russia, the US, and the EU as brokers will guarantee compliance on behalf of Turkey and Armenia, among others.
I did not see myself and Davidian make this kind of argument. It is true that these powers have put their reputation and credibility on line. In case of non-compliance the Armenian diplomacy will gain the initiative. Armenia won't be obliged to follow letters of an agreement that is not implemented by the other side. This is a perfectly acceptable and defensible position. Much more so than telling these powers to mind their own business.
They of course do not mention the “historic commission” and its obvious goal by all parties involved, which our proponents here do (to their credit is it?).
This is not true either. Davidian wrote a piece today in response to the professor of philosophy from Worcester College and addressed this very issue. From day one I have been arguing that the commission is the weakest component due to its ambiguity and lack of specific timeline and modalities. I have agreed with those raising concerns about this provision, especially in view of your namesake's statements in the Armenian parliament that this commission may work for a decade or two. Moreover, I can clearly see this provision as a concession to the Turkish demands. The issue of the genocide has been channeled to a discourse which is not going to result in legal consequences or advancement of territorial claims by Armenia. I do not see this as a disaster for the Armenian side. At this juncture in history the international system, including international law, does not have mechanisms for enforcing the verdict. None of the major powers is interested in ending up with obligations for enforcement and setting up a new precedent. Most loyal to the Armenian cause politicians do not see how this can be done in practical terms. Shall we take this kind of recognition which is more likely to be forthcoming even from Turkey or shall we stick to "all-or-nothing"? If there are no practical means for implementing territorial compensation today, it does not mean that we should not take this recognition since it cannot preclude acting on future political opportunities. This is how I am making sense of Sargsyan's position. Not surprisingly therefore the second most important objection of Turks to the protocols after Karabakh is this very commission. Of course, you may claim that this is part of their game and Turks and Azeris burning Gul's and Erdogan's portraits may be damn good actors practicing Stanislavski's system but if I were in their shoes, I'd be concerned. I could not agree more with this quote from Akcam:
"I don't believe that either Armenia or international circles will accept the formation of a commission based upon the recommendation of the Turkish government to "research the claims of genocide." It will be impossible to establish a commission for the purpose of coming to a conclusion on the question of, "Were the events of 1915 a genocide?" I think we need to put that idea completely out of our heads."
Right, Poghos, right.... care to actually ground your claim? (and didn't the author debunk the notion of 'objectivity' right up front?) Typical nationalist, knee-jerk, emotional reaction devoid of any analysis or thought whatsoever.
My misuse of the term "Detente" versus "Entente" has sarcasm at its root:
The so-called "Triple Entente", reminiscent of the "Troika" evoked above, consisted, as we know, of Britain, France, and (Tazarist) Russia. The third leg, as expected, collapsed (and switched gears), as it always does when Armenians seem to need it. The other two were not able to maintain the so-called "Entente," which quickly became a "Detente" naturally in favor of Turkey, always there, ready to murder and take advantage like the good imperialist.
The "Jews" consist of many splinters when it concerns the Armenian question in general. The ADL, AJC, and so on, seem to be radically pro-Turkish. Israel belongs to the NATO block in political terms, and is therefore a happy participant in the anti-Russian projects in Eurasia. We will, to calm the potential foam, say that "Azeri/Caspian oil and the control of is a significant influencing factor." The actual game plan looks as though Israel's 4 way alliance inclufing (as mentioned above) Georgia (currently logistically crippled but at the popular/grass roots level more anti-Russian than even), Turkey, and Azerbaijan ties in with the anti-Russian tradition of what British imperialism has passed on to the US and the rest of the NATO block. It is obvious that Russia is being militarily encircled and isolated in stages, and our arrogant naywayers to this theory only do so because they have an irrationally high level of confidence in Russia's "invincibility." Read the Boyadjian article comments section and see the rabidly pro-Russian stance of some and the utter arrogant overconfidence in "Russian bailouts." In the long term, David Boyadjian, again, is correct. Russia is an unstable entity with dwinsling imperial control over its vast particularly muslim (more so Turkic than, say, Tadjik and so on) populated territories.
This brings the protocols smack into the middle of this game where Armenians are led to believe in a fictitious and unlikely "international sponsorship" instead of self-reliance to the maximum possible level with total cooperation between all Armenian populations managed by Yerevan. This is what is best as a solution, long term solution, but this is precisely what "protocols" such as this negate.
Thank you all for great and in depth posts.. I truly appreciate and am very proud to know that we have intelligent Armenians who know how to have intelligent conversation and respect one another when doing so...
I just wish I had the answer for this.. it seems like every corner we turn, we run into a dead end.. To me all for nothing approach seemed more feasbile (event though as I mentioned in my previous posts, I am very afraid of the outcome and have no idea how it will end up) than the things we have done for years... morally, policitically, financially , which brought nothing but more frustrated and dissapointed Armenians. I know I won't forgive myself if I see another one of my countryman/countrywoman shed blood but what does it take to get our govt make things right and do things right...and US govt to do what they preach..
I believe in people power.. however for some reason that does not work with our own govt...
I suggest Katia, Hasmig, Arthur and everyone who believes in well being of our Country and People to go to Armenia, overtake the govt and start running the country the way it should be.. Seriously, we have more brain cells and intelligent approach and desire and dedication than half the govt bodies in Armenia..
G
Hye...
Yep, Genocide pays... all the perpetrators that have 'gotten away' with their despotic goals - won!
All those whose were slaughtered, all those who survived with the memories of Genocide - losers!
It pays to commit Genocides... whose turn is it next in the barrel? I can't even call the perpetrators
animals, since animals only kill when they are in need of food... Today, humans, morally, cannot join to oppose perpetrators... In the 21st century, civilization has placed Genocides in the 'political'
realm - when Genocide, any Genocide, against a people whether for race, religion or whatever,
to tell the truth - is a moral issue... Manooshag
Dear Hagop Nalbandyan,
I welcome your invitation to take a longer look. My concern, however, is with the part of your assertions where you are trying to legitimize futurology as the best predictive model:
Any political thinker, (and thinking is a prerequisite here, not “technical termite mound building”), can tell the signs of multi-stage preparations by given powers for the attainment of a set of goals.
You can see the signs of intention but even the best plans and intentions need to be implemented. Saddam missed all signs in 1990 when the coalition was ready to strike. He missed it again in 2003. US despite many Fridmans around missed entirely the Al Quaeda strike on 9/11. Neocons despite deep and multidimensional thinking missed entirely the signs of long term resistance in Iraq and now again in Afghanistan. We can go on and on. Thinking about future is hard but possible and it is done best in scenario planning. But scenario planning is science whereas futurology of Friedmans is just that - intentions and "strategic day-dreaming."
The 4th and 6th items contradict with themselves. While Armenia doesn't allow Turkey to add any provision to the protocols, itself should add a provision about opening the borders. How can Turkey accept this ?
poghos's comment is exactly what the first part of the article is trying to argue. alas any side which doesn't agree with an issue blames it to be "subjective" "false" and "Academic" (the last one being the most common insult for those who have inferiority complexes when it comes to academic. the author never claims to be objective nor is there a claim for being academicin this piece. the level of vulgarity and incivility in this whole discussion is simply mind boggling and suffocating.
Hagop jan,
Yes, let's look at "little" Chechnya. The Islamic insurgency there was an operation conceived, organized and funded by the CIA, MIT, MI6, ISI and Al Qaeda. The operation was put into motion when Russia was down on its knees as a result of the Soviet collapse. The operation's main goal was to expel Russians from the greater Caucasus region by handing the territory to the region's Islamic and Turkic peoples, although Georgia was also a part of the agenda. Had this initial operation succeeded Armenia/Nagorno Karabagh would have been next. At the time, during the Yeltsin years, Russia suffered a series of setbacks in Chechnya but kept their stance in adjacent regions, not allowing the insurgency to spread further. Needless to say, Russia got its act together under Putin and managed to crush the insurgency in a single massive campaign in the year 2000. Caucasus' fate was sealed during the summer of 2008 when Russia crushed Georgia. Today the Islamic movement in Chechnya is nothing but a localized nuisance that will gradually disappear altogether, especially now that money, men and supplies no longer reach the area via Georgia and Azerbaijan. If you want to familiarize yourself with the geopolitical gravity of the Western funded Islamic movement in the Caucasus, and see how brilliant the performance of the Russian FSB/GRU was in defeating the Western backed Islamists, read the excellent book titled "Chechen Jihad" by Yossef Bodansky. And I have news for you Hagop jan, had the West's intentions succeeded in the northern Caucasus - Armenia would not exist today. And no one here is ridiculing Armenian nationalists. However, one needs to define what "Armenian nationalist" means. Trust me, most of you here, by definition and by action, would not be qualified to be called Armenian nationalists.
The rest of your commentary does not warrant a response from me. You are attempting verbal gymnastics in an attempt to make a point where a point does not exist. I suggest you stop watching FOX news (or any other mainstream news media in the US) and begin closely monitoring developments in Eurasia.
If the war is to widen in Afghanistan, and Armenia is to play a role in the provision of supplies via this newly opened border, can someone speculate for me what Russia gets out of it?
What happens to a country that profits from war supply, culturally and economically?
It is interesting to note the condescending tone with which an Armenian from Isfahan is treated. This is precisely the problem: Prejudice and bias against entire sectors of Armenians by the successive administrations in Yerevan.
We see divisiveness. We see hatred. That is a problem.
It is doubly amising to note the "imperative and commanding tone" with which they tell us to leave the debate. How disgusting. They ask for "alternate solutions for the protocols" with arrogance, always missing the most simple and obvious.
The only viable long term solution for Armenians is the consolidation and proper exploitation of Armenian resources available globally by intelligent administrators in Yerevan. We do not have this. When Armenian gained its independence, this was the hope of all. If such pooling of resources was done in an intelligent manner, then we would have a relatively stronger and more favorable position in this world as Armenians, as would the Republic in its geopolitical context. If the current situation were to come about in that scenario, the "troika" would still apply their pressures, but the bargaining capabilities would be relatively better depending on how well we pool our own resources.
The total lack of faith in even the possibility of Armenian solidarity is perpetuating itself as a self-fulfilling prophesy. Again, read this well-researched document in the fall of Kars and see for youself the sorry consquences of this irrational level of Russophilia and lack of Armenian autonomous initiative: http://www.ararat-center.org/upload/files/Razm_&_Anvtang_16.pdf. Long story short, it shows how a military "leadership" and Russophile "administration" managed to incapacitate a potent Armenian military force and lose Kars and all independence.
One would hope that in this day and age of more aware populations of Armenians and much improved communication lines between all Armenians, that this problem would find some sort of resolution. Instead we have agents of division amongst us who accuse, for example, diasporans of "callousness due to lack of vital interests in Armenia." This "agency" of dupes keeps on forgetting that the very maintenance of one's Armenian ancestry is vital and is vitally linked to the survival of Armenia. Some have a longer and more cautious approach to emigrating yet again to a not-so-hospitable Armenia, but most who realistically look at this problem of identity and its maintenace have aspirations to eventually settle in Armenia. They consider Armenia their destination and therefore have a vital interest in Armenia's survival and prosperity.
I personally own a home there, but I know I cannot afford to live there as of yet. I cannot deal with brazen arrogance of the like above with guns in their hands. But I'll be damned if any fool will tell me to get out of this debate for any reason. This is my debate for my future.
We clearly have divisive nonsense spewed out by post-Bolshevik snobs and those under their influence who keep on advocating total compliance to any conditional "offers" given by the hostiles (Turkey, number one hostile) and their sponsors. This needs to be resolved soon, or our future as a nation is endangered.
The ADL, AJC, and so on, seem to be radically pro-Turkish.
Today I read that Rep. Wexler is leaving Congress for a DC "thinktank" called Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation. I wonder who is on their client list.
Dear Arthur Martirosyan,
You are absolutely correct in that futurologists and metereologists are in the same boat and cannot ever practice exact science, to say the least. However, with futurologists, the distinction is in the likelihood of an agenda being proposed in the backroom before the author/playwrite/showman puts it in the grasp of the public. I don't consider that to be a reliable prediction mechanism any more than you do. I do, however, see it as a testing, brainwashing and conditioning method, a stage in the psychological trials an idea goes through, and, depending on the public reaction, the implementation of the idea is either executed or delayed. If there is any lesson to be learned from strategists (such as Clausevitz, the amalgam of personalities that is Sun Tzu and so on) it is that conditioning and testing the public (domestic and international) in successive waves is the all imporant tool. That the prediction is ofte doomed to failure does not negate the fact that the idea exists and is being published for consumption and assimilation by the populations and, particularly, student bodies of diplomacy schools at that given time, the future generations of policy makers. At that given time, it is "predicted" by such intelligence affiliated authors becuase it is in test mode, so to speak. The failure of the prediction is more likele due to perhaps total abandonment of that particular goal based on 1) the initial public reaction and 2) the actual feasability of the scenario. Neo-Ottomanism is being tested as an idea due to the possible feasability. Perhaps the Central Eurasian project is part of the conditioning phase. Turkey is, in either toponyms used, the main local player and perhaps even dominant player, depending on how the pan-Islamic industrialization efforts go with mainly Malaysian leadership and Iranian partnership. If any relations are to be cultivated, it has to be viewed from within this long term proposed, or predicted if you like, context as well.
Predictable, but managing thisPR game is what we need to excel at. Point and counterpoint, baiting and other tactics to win the public edge. We need to stand firm in Karabagh and let the Turks dig in deeper with the "non pre-conditions". Soon the sizeable cracks within the Turkish side will become more evident. In addition, the only way for Turkey to keep Azerbaijan quiet is to force a play on Karabagh; which is supposed to be outside of the protocols process. As Turkey moves to ratify the protocols, Azerbaijan will not be able to resistinterupting the discussion with their agenda. These
dynamics should be something we can exploit. Focus on the content of the protocols. Let them be viewed as the side representing distractions, denying and delaying. If we play his right, the Turks will reject this(probablythrough delays and distractions; not the ratification) and we may have the opportunity to get it right.
Our future as a nation is really endangered as long as there are Armenians who can produce several hundred words of hatred a minute and not a single one on substance. At best it will be fragmented grievances in subjunctives re what there could have been and had there been...
Debate? He loses it before starting because his very first line is a personal attack. After spewing words of hatred -- "sellout", "davajan", "paid agents" -- he can settle for the divisiveness litany. He can question credentials of others but without any specialized knowledge on subjects he is ready to lecture anyone - security matters, negotiations, intelligence or national interests... Enough that he has read one article and two books by Aivazian.
All he can offer Armenia is ranting about "Rusophiles", "post-Bolshevik" snobs and ad nausea. Let him tell general Norat Ter-Grigoryan whose first language is Russian (he barely speaks Armenian) that he is a Rusophile and a post-Bolshevik-snob because he has orders of Lenin and Red Star... Let him tell the largest Armenian diaspora in the world that they are Rusophiles and that's why Kars was surrendered in 1920... If only there could be Armenia without "post-Bolshevik" Hayastantsis, he'd move there immediately to work as a national consolidator. Hypocrisy or schizophrenia.
You might add that the Washington Post yesterday praised the Assembly for endorsing the end of attempts to commemorate the Genocide in the US Congress:
Opponents say this could give Turkey, which denies
that a genocide took place, a means to filibuster the
issue -- and to stop the annual attempt by some in the
U.S. Congress to pass a resolution declaring that
genocide occurred. In fact, the issue is one best left
to the two countries; that several U.S. Armenian
groups have endorsed the accord is a victory for
common sense.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/13/AR2009101302798.html
Avetis writes--"let’s look at “little” Chechnya. The Islamic insurgency there was an operation conceived, organized and funded by the CIA, MIT, MI6, ISI and Al Qaeda"
Right, the Chechens would be sitting home having tea if they were not manipulated by MIT and the CIA along with their buddies in Al Qaeda into insurgency.
Wild conjecture linked to wild conjecture does not make a convincing argument.
Dear Janine,
Armenia will be providing a military unit for the ISAF in Afghanistan until the end of this year. The unit will be guarding the airfield in Kunduz.
What's in it for Russia? Primarily, economic and military interests.
Arthur Martirosyan,
You have made much clearer your position, which is in line with the article above with only one important exception: "Armenia is in an interesting diplomatic position at the publication of this protocol. The only item that changes anything is the physical lifting of the Turkish border blockade. Armenia should ratify this protocol without delay and put pressure on Turkey not to delay or will pay the PR consequences."
This above is the language of a proponent who is advocating a gamble. This is what I originally objected to, and this position has not changed. You say that I misinterpreted this. So be it. You now state otherwise.
You have expressed agreement with this related sentiment as well: "“Turkey is in a situation where it has alienated its ally Azerbaijan by appearing to cut a deal with Armenia and has been making deals with Russia. It may also be under the false impression it has extracted concessions from Armenia.”
This is an extension of the gamble, another approach I object to. Turkey's impression is, in the opinion of many learned, not so false.
"From day one I have been arguing that the commission is the weakest component due to its ambiguity and lack of specific timeline and modalities."
Yes, you did indeed. The historic commission's entry is a major blunder on the Armenian side due to what opportunists and sincere folk alike consider the result of callousness and ignorance on behalf of these folks toward the genocide recognition, on Armenian history in general, and people affected. I happen to agree with this position, and little has been done to convince me otherwise.
You now in your most recent replies are taking on the position of an analyst - with no air of proponency - who wants to merely understand the circumstances which brought about the protocols and assumably the accelerations of the normalization process in total. This position I cannot possibly argue against. Regardless of the differences in interpretation of the geopolitical context, which is something I still will express my disagreements with, I now see that you and David's position is essentially the same as mine.
We are arriving at a consensus. Don't spoil it with personal prejudices. I promise to leave mine aside in the trash bin as you have done well in the recent response on average.
Let me then, with the hope of continuing the civility shown in the above response where you welcome my invitiation to take a longer look, as you the questions again that I originally posed. Despite our mutual sour grapes, I happen to believe you to be the most qualified to answer these:
1. Are there provisions in any part of the protocols against Turkish continuatiion of the anti-Armenian propaganda war? This applies to Internet activility in particular, but also in the academia and so on. Are anti-Armenian information attacks to cease? Has this ever been discussed?
2. Are there provisions in any part of the protocols against Turkish intelligence operations targeting Armenia and Armenian assetts outside of Armenia?
On the Armenian side, the Armenian state media never took on a similar tone with regards to Turkey. Just the opposite occurred. Armenian Republic media and diasporan media under Yerevan control (USArmenia in particular) took on a most concilatory tone and blatantly distorted the historical reality in order to achieve public support for the normalization process.
3. Do you agree with this approach? Do you agree with the systematic deception of the Armenian populations and the distortion of history as the method to convince the public to accept policy decisions?
They also as a rule tried their best to make the diasporan look like some clown, sitting in suburbia, uninterested in reality, but willing to shout out due to "irrational ultra-nationalism" as the driving force. In some instances, yours truly was able to attract some honest responses in this area. Perhaps the deep-seatedness of such prejudice needs more exposure.
I understand that the diaspora parties, one in particular known to be the opportunist (which we both have expressed similar distaste for in the past), created the air of frenzy and managed to rile up a crowd, a large one, against the protocols. Locally, we saw varying opinions, but most were schocked by the lack of accountability and dialog with the population by the government prior to embarking on this protocol process.
4. Do you agree with this approach?
(to be continued)
Guess what Mr. Hamparian, while all you "nationalists" were living your comfortable suburban lives here in the US, Armenia was gradually sinking into a Third World state due to its minuscule size, tiny population, stagnant economy, landlocked geography, blockade, resource-less country and a constant state of war... While you people were obsessing over whether or not the US president will say the word "genocide" every year Armenia has been tethering on the edge of survival... While you people were wining and dining serpents in Washington DC your compatriots in the homeland were gradually losing faith in their very existence... After all this, what results have you had in pursuing the "Hay Dat"? How many years of the same old story, Mr. Hamparian? How much time and money has the diaspora wasted on this agenda? For real nationalists the homeland takes precedence above all other issues. I suggest you people begin spending the time and money you waste over "genocide recognition" on your homeland instead. The genocide will only get recognized and reparations will only get payed once Armenia is powerful enough to force it upon Turkey. All other means to pursue the Hay Dat is a waste of time. Regarding the protocols: It is probably the best political news Armenia has had in a thousand years.
I don't understand why objection to the particular historical commission part of this protocol is always characterized as "all or nothing." Some of us are saying that this particular part should have been negotiated upon or objected to - especially given the potent protests of the diaspora and their continual lobbying of their elected officials. I am not at all against open borders and diplomatic relations with Turkey.
On the historical commission, you said:
"I have agreed with those raising concerns about this provision, especially in view of your namesake’s statements in the Armenian parliament that this commission may work for a decade or two."
Noted. By the way, you misread my comment above. I never claimed that you blackballed the historical commission blunder.
"Moreover, I can clearly see this provision as a concession to the Turkish demands."
So does David, but in an exaggeratedly subdued manner, up above.
"The issue of the genocide has been channeled to a discourse which is not going to result in legal consequences or advancement of territorial claims by Armenia."
"I do not see this as a disaster for the Armenian side. At this juncture in history the international system, including international law, does not have mechanisms for enforcing the verdict. None of the major powers is interested in ending up with obligations for enforcement and setting up a new precedent. Most loyal to the Armenian cause politicians do not see how this can be done in practical terms. Shall we take this kind of recognition which is more likely to be forthcoming even from Turkey or shall we stick to “all-or-nothing”? If there are no practical means for implementing territorial compensation today, it does not mean that we should not take this recognition since it cannot preclude acting on future political opportunities. This is how I am making sense of Sargsyan’s position. Not surprisingly therefore the second most important objection of Turks to the protocols after Karabakh is this very commission. Of course, you may claim that this is part of their game and Turks and Azeris burning Gul’s and Erdogan’s portraits may be damn good actors practicing Stanislavski’s system but if I were in their shoes, I’d be concerned. I could not agree more with this quote from Akcam:"
“I don’t believe that either Armenia or international circles will accept the formation of a commission based upon the recommendation of the Turkish government to “research the claims of genocide.” It will be impossible to establish a commission for the purpose of coming to a conclusion on the question of, “Were the events of 1915 a genocide?” I think we need to put that idea completely out of our heads.”
I agree and applaud the statement which I bolded above. Naturally, you never know what opportunities arise. The object, therefore, is to pool all resources at the disposal of the Armenian nation. What baffles me is the lack of desire to even think in that direction in earnest, and the utter zeal with which colonial supplication is embraced. I refer to the successive administrations.
Also, this is a brand of optimism with which I do not and cannot agree. Akcam's impact is minimal compared to a huge state driven fascistic apparatus which is still in full force. None of the provisions that should be required in a valid negotiation scenario have been put on the table. The most famous of the fascistic laws on the books is article 301. We all know this becauses of a recent defamation and murder cycle brought onto a now famous journalist, whose memory and impact will likely fade into the fascistic abyss and the article will live on. That is my prediction, and Akcam should know better, since he too is subject to such laws and processes of defamation. He is, moreover, one man against an Army of a million+ that still supersedes the Parliament in power, a huge popular and state perpetuated support base for fascistic organizations such as the Gray Wolves. This is still essentually a State where the Nazi equivalent is touted as mainstream. Now, as I have mentioned in previous comments, Harun Yahya's so-called "ultra religious" front also is in support of an expantionist Turkic empire which they dubb "The Peace Federation Under the Turkic Umbrella" or some other fascistic nonsense wrapped in Islamist clothing. There is now a degree of cordiality between supposed conflicting forces, and this has been exemplified by the increased cooperation between Erdogan's party and Buyukanit.
Indeed, Stanislavski would be proud of the Turkish ability to change shape at will. Kemal turned Red, then White again, on a dime. The pan-Turkists in the Caucasus were described by Garegin Nzhdeh as "Karmir peturner hakats Turk fascistiner." Indeed, "Turkish fascists dressed in red plummage" was the standard method of securing Red support in the Caucasus and the achievement of, again, relief from the Entente's impositions on Turkey. They will always maintain their racist ambitions despite the gnawing of the liberal left in the person of Pamuk, Akcam, Gocek, the late Dink, and so on, and such "gnawing" is also possibly part of a elaborate litmus test by a well-oiled intelligence apparatus.
By the way, I read a lot of books on this topic, a lot. Ironically, the 2 articles from the ararat-center.org that have caught my attention are Karen Vrtanesyan's Internet article and Gevork Yazedjian Kars article. They are well written and excellent articles. For the last 2 years I've gone further to the fore (than my 3rd millennium b.c. to 100 a.d. range) and have been reading the historical chronicles of Aristakes Lazdivertsi (painful lamentation on the Seljuk incursions) as published and interpreted by M. Ormanian and Arakel Davrizhetsi's "History of Armenia" that deals with the Abbasian inclursions and deportations and the Jalalin rebellion. When one reads particularly the Jalalin/Safavi conflict and the path taken by the conflict, the targeted populations during the conflict, one learns that Pan-Turkism has older roots than Vambery's unacademic ramblings.
This ideology is nothing new. It is old and rooted and has been in the Ottoman mind since at least the mid 17th century. I don't think that a few leftist writers will erase this from the minds of millions any time soon.
A well written piece. The author lays out the key issues, while difficult to do - I would recommend ignoring the nationalist/populist provocateurs such as Poghos. Finding themsleves in a Brave New post-Protocol world, they express their fear and anxiety through personal attacks on anyone who challenges their old ideas.
Avetis, your Russophilia is blinding you terribly. You have immediately and irrationally taken on an adversarial position with a fellow Armenian and have managed to repeat the stupid cliche: "I am a true nationalist while you are a fake nationalist. My dad can beat up your dad." etc.
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In the chechen war, just like any Armenian, I was waiting for Russia to finish the job and stop the (essentially) Wahhabist "rebellion" obviously sponsored by the Anglo-American-Zionist (and Saudi, of course) block, obviously. That is what I meant by "litmus test" of a sort, where these mongrels, under the Chechen proxy, were testing Russian resolve, and had in fact declared war against Russia at the conventional level under the Chechen flag. This is a given. Of course Armenia's interest lied in the resumption of Russian control of the region.
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Georgia and her sponsors were humiliated recently. This "humiliation" in Georgia resulted in a temporary gain for Russia, but the Warsaw Pact is long gone, and NATO control is expanding. Anti-Russian sentiments have peaked ot just in the caucasus, but also in Central Asia as described above.
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Then comes my next point which you and all other Russophiles seem to avoid due to another sort of prejudicial bias. The ease with which you condemn "nationalists" and then use that as pretext to "categorize" fellow Armenians in a disdainful tone is indicative of how little value you put in your fellow Armenians, particularly those who do not share you Russophiliac world view. I see this same phenomenon in some Armenians from Iran and their Iranophilia and so on. I wish I had a dime each and every time I heard said or implied this statement: "If you don't speak Russian, than you are ignorant. I don't care how well you speak Armenian," and its "Iranophile" variety, its "Francophile" variety, its "Anglophile" variety, and so on. It's just not enough for you to be Armenian for Armenians these days.
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This stems from the fact that we place undue hope on external forces, foreign powers, and for this reason we keep on losing territory and national sovereignty in stages.
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The fact that Russia is a dying empire is no illusion, nor is it the propganda effort of FOX. UNDPA is not by any means a biased source on Russia. It is partly controlled by Russia. The demographics analysis is correct. Russia is being bred out of dominance.
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Russia is the number one weapons exporter, and we are supposed to see this as some sort of sustainable economic achievement. Weapons are the main industry, and probably the only industry worth mentioning. The mineral and energy sector are for the time being the largest sector of the economy.
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All this sounds grand until you do a comparison of GDPs. The UK, Germany, and India are in fact larger economies. France is only behind by a smal percentage. The US economy is 7 times larger. China is 3 times larger, and so on. The NATO block can outfinance Russia by a factor of at least 10 to 1, and they have managed to strip from the Warsaw pact all eastern european states and 5 FSU republics. Turkey is only 0.6 of Russia's total output, putting Turkey not far behind Russian economic strength. Moreover, Turkish military is subsidised by NATO, thus making Turkey capable of further re-investment in the private sector for further growth.
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Russia's industry was far more advanced in global relatives terms during Stolypin's tenure than it ever has been, and even some soviet economists agreed to this. Now, Russia is mainly a raw materials exporter, which makes Russia weaker than a potential it has reached in the past by far.
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Boyadjian is correct. Russia is aggressive and for time being strong, but not very diplomatically adept at maintaining an empire. It's gutting itself by maintaining a greedy oligarchy and no transparents government. It is in fact still suffering from a brain drain. We hear about the "prosperity of Moscow" from fellow Armenians, but when asked how the rest of Russia is doing, the same answer comes up: Well, some parts of Siberia are thriving. The hint is that this is "doing well" based on the weapons industry, diamond production, minerals, and no consumer technology product, no cars, no commercial planes (they have lost miserably there).
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Russia's place in the world is not what it once was. Russia's total population is less than half that of the US alone. A good percentage of Russia's population are in fact Muslims (some say 15%) who will work to gain autonomy once the balance is in their favor. Less than 80% are considered ethnic Russians. Exponents indicate that Russia's ethnic Russian population will be less than 50% in a matter of a few decades. I hope Russians don't lose their strength for now, for the sake of Armenian survival at this stage, but the reality is disconcerting.
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I am not anti-Russian in my attitudes by ay means, not even close, but I cannot agree with this overreliance on foreign support. Again, it is a distrubing thing to see Armenians flinch from internecine cooperation because of a misguided complacency resulting from placement of too much hope on foreign sponsorship and suzereignty. Our history says that we have lost much because of this. Denial of history is a dangerous thing.
To David Grigorian, The Zangezur example is by far the most poignant. We seem to think that we as a people no longer have the potential to be truly autonomous. We are perhaps systematically denied the opportunity to have able leadership by the forces at work in order to deny accesso to our own self-confidence as a nation, which can eventually result in a more mutual respectful national psyche. Nzhdeh was an extraordinary man who performed something remarkable in 1919-1921. We have arrived to this destination of ovvereliance on a foreing power, in this case Russia, mostly as a self-fulfilling prophesy due to our own psychological precognitions of who we are as a nation. The evocation of Garegin Nzhdeh is crucial, and I thank you for that.
Dear Hasmig, as the matter of fact Dr. Theriault is Armenian.
David Davidian,
You are misrepresenting your critics and their objections.
Particularly offensive is the misreprepresentation of what exactly was said about the Kars Treaty by vomn Shant Hariyunian, who, by and by, was a commander from the Artsakh war. Hariyunian's thesis is that the conditions which can enable the two local powers, Russia and Turkey, to re-affirm the Kars Treaty is a strong possibility as he believes that the conditions will come about once the protocols are in effect. Not once was it mentioned in the commentary that the text from either the Moscow or Kars treaties were in the protocols. I happened to agree that Turkish hegemony is a definite probability, and the Moscow Treaty in particular declares Armenia as a shared protectorate of Russia and Turkey. If Russia does come to an agreement of sharing power in the region, as it in fact did in 1920-1922, then the possibility that these agreements from 1920 and 1921 will be re-affirmed by these parties. There is nothing "hysterical" or "irrational" about this.
If Mr Astarjian or anyone else in the diaspora want to influence events in Armenia, let them give up their agreeable lifestyles in America, move to Armenia, invest their time, skill and resources into the homeland, become citizens, vote and gain a voice. Otherwise, keep quiet and let those of us living in Armenia get on with doing what is best for this country. I doubt Mr Obama would consult an expat American living in Armenia before taking a foreign policy decision; why should Pres Sarkissian consult Mr. Astarjian?
Far better that Armenia evolves into a successful country standing on its own feet, even if this means growing up and talking with the neighbours, rather than begging on its knees as some backward folkloric Disneyworld for those who talk much but do less.
Well said David and well argued those against it but wait a minute...Do u expect us to shut ourselves in our mountains and see our countries death just because the Turks are our enemy?? Always remember that a countr cannot survive isolated and without trading and sharing borders with other countries.especially when we are talking of a country like Armenia which is not located near the sea..We just cannot go on connecting with the world through Georgia for obvious reasons..U talk of Genocide and Western Armenia..In order to claim anything and make our voices heard by the world,we have to have a developed economy in the current Republic of Armenia and that is absolutly not possible if u follow the way Haro suggests...Unless u make ur market open for foreighn investmenits and have economic cooperation with ur neighbours,being a country and an economy u cannot survive..Armenia can't go on borrowing..We need people to come and invest in our country..We need to send our Domestic products to foreighn markets and we need to connect with Russia..All this cannot be done through Georgia...Hence,let us just stop thinking that OMG it's the Turks we are dealing with...If we act cleverly,we will win but if u hinder the work of our government with strikes and protests,we will lose again...And y is everyone scared of the Genocide issue being discussed? If being an Armenian you refuse to discuss the issue and back off,then u r giving the world a chance to think that it didn't happen..if u know it happened and are confident about ur history,then get in and Argue and win it once in for all.....This is all to our benefit(of course risk exists in everything),we just have to act with our brains and not our kidneys....And if this time we lose again,we can only blame ourselves for not taking full advantage of this given opportunity....
Thank u David for the Article...Well done..
Hagop Nalbandyan wrote:
"David Davidian,
You are misrepresenting your critics and their objections."
No sir, I have not. Contrary to popular convenience, I have read Henry Theriault’s text as written. I am not the enemy -- Artur Martirosyan is not the enemy – the Turkish socialization process is the enemy. I know Henry Theriault, and I am appalled that I have reduced to the being the enemy and made a public scapegoat. This is exactly what happened in 1996 when Hagop Nalbandian forced me to end my dismantling of Turkish revisionism on the internet.
It is more important and apparently satisfying, to jump on my head than to discern and take on our real enemies. Below is the extent to which those who refuse to recognize the real enemy will go.
Paul Henzi [1] wrote [2]: “Armenian history is not easy to study. It is long, complex, sometimes obscure and often controversial. There are rich records to draw upon, but texts and traditions have not been as meticulously and critically examined by independent scholars as those of many other old nations.”
Henry Theriault [3] wrote: “The protocols exist within a complex historical, cultural, political, and geopolitical context dominated by genocide and its aftermath. It is impossible to interpret accurately the meaning of particular elements of the protocols without reference to that context.”
How serendipitous for the Professor (and supporting readership) to use the same argument against me, as do supporters of Turkey against Armenians.
Feel free to respond, Hagop Nalbandian, however I am ending my participation in these two commentary threads. Anyone needing to contact me can ask the editor of the Armenian Weekly for my personal email address.
References:
[1] Former CIA station chief in Turkey who became a National Security advisor to President Carter. After his retirement he became a terrorism expert and was one of a group of “experts” associated with Center for Strategic and International Studies, during the 1980s
[2] International Terrorism and the Drug Connection, Ankara (Ankara - University Press), 1984. pp. 179-202.
[3] http://armenianweekly.com/2009/10/11/theriault-the-final-stage-of-genocide-consolidation/
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Karen Mkrtchyan, thank you for your supporting comment.
However, I am ending my participation in this and the http://armenianweekly.com/2009/10/11/theriault-the-final-stage-of-genocide-consolidation/ commentary threads. My final comment is on the other web page and reasons for ending participant are made clear. Anyone needing to contact me can ask the editor of the Armenian Weekly for my personal email address.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Dear Janine,
I understand that there are differences of opinion despite some efforts to show unanimity. Some are saying NO to the process because we are the weaker side and you do not bargain when you are weak. The fallacy of this approach is that negotiation is not always and only about the distributive give and take. But more importantly, over time we are not going to get stronger. In fact, isolating and blockading Armenia has been the major element of our enemies' strategy to bring Armenia to its knees. Those who agree that Armenia is weak (Nalbandyan and Dr. Grigoryan in this forum) have also been arguing after their teacher Friedman that Turkey is getting stronger. When asked what they are proposing to do, they produce deafening silence. On top of that in this context our NO, despite some sofa warriors, would leave Armenia and Artsakh in much worse conditions. The slogan of this camp is out there - Justice, not protocols. And that is all-or-nothing and that is what the author of this article from Worcester College is called to advance.
The other group, like yourself, has been arguing for normalization but against this version of the protocols. If this is a genuine position, the proponents of this position should be able to spell out what kind of protocol would be better and even optimal. This kind of discussion would have some value for policy option generation. However, those who make this argument, in addition to spelling out the best option on the table, would need to make sure that it is indeed an option but not wishful thinking. The difference is very simple - the best option on the table has to better satisfy our interests than our alternatives (walkaway options) and the current deal, should meet the interests of other players and be acceptable for Turks. This requires hard work to put us ahead of the enemy in the thinking game.
Could the government of Armenia negotiate a better deal at the table? What would it look like? Is it possible to improve the current deal and if yes how? This would have been much healthier discourse than what we have had so far and that is one of despair, emotional agitation and a blame game with zero sum "all-or-nothing" used internally to further divide the Armenian world and drive this process to a real disaster.
Dear Gayane,
Thank you for your kind words. I am a strong believer in everyone in his\her place. I would never join a corrupt government even if the offer were much better than my current job, a difficult proposition for the Armenian government in any event. But I'd contemplate working for a not corrupt Armenian government if my skills were warranted. I'd do that even if the offer were much worse than what I am doing now.
This said, I still think that each and every one can make his contribution to the process, if what we have to offer is based on expertise, knowledge and track record of credentials. The problem is that almost every Armenian today claims expertise in international politics, negotiations, security, Russia, intelligence and so on.
Far from being a proponent of the deal, I have my own reservations about the commission and concerns about gains and losses from liberalized trade. However, I cannot accept that anyone who is trying to make sense of the deal, explain it, analyze POLICY, can be shut down by the agitated majority, branded a traitor or worse. Those were the reactions to Davidian's article. Moreover, I also believe that even in the worst crisis we should be led by thought rather than emotion, by our frontal cortex rather than limbic reptilian reactions.
I request all to (re)read Arthur's call-to-thought for all interested in a prosperous Armenia, posted on October 16th, 2009 at 12:32 pm.
If Russia does come to an agreement of sharing power in the region, as it in fact did in 1920-1922, then the possibility that these agreements from 1920 and 1921 will be re-affirmed by these parties. There is nothing “hysterical” or “irrational” about this.
This is indeed hysterical and irrational.
1) Bolshevist Russia did not share power with Turkey in the region in 1920s. The short-lived honeymoon of the proponents of the permanent revolution with Kemalists (Trotsky) was over when the leader of Turkish Communists and other "comrades" were massacred on orders from Ataturk in 1921 and Stalinist version of socialist development won over Trotskyites (XII Congress of RKP (b) in April 1923).
2) The scenario of the Turkish-Russian power-sharing in the region cannot be ruled out. But if Russia were to go as far as power-sharing with Turkey, they would not need to revive any past treaties and agreements. However, this is a very low probability scenario since Russians are not likely to release their only security grip in the region. If anything, they are working toward expanding it, not sharing with a NATO member Turkey. If Hariyunian is a historian, he should stick to history, if he is an expert on Russian security, we can talk with facts and data on hands. Nalbandyan, this is not an invitation to you or Boyadjian. You are not experts on Russia, you are second or third source users.
Why "hysterical" is appropriate? Because real hysteria starts with discovery of undesirable symptoms and stops there. It never goes to policy level, only heightens agitation and sets in gloom and doom.
Dear Nalbandyan,
I could not care less what you object to, what kind of rice you like in your pilaf and what kind you do not. You have to give reasons why. You have asked many questions but if you are interested in a discussion or a debate, i.e. learning, not just showing off to your comrades how capable you are at history, security, intelligence, Russia etc., you need to make one simple move - disclose your position. Are you for "Justice, not protocols" or are you for "normalization, but against this version of protocols"?
If the former, there is nothing to debate is there? You are saying it should have been a NO, without giving a damn what alternatives Armenia really has. If it is the second, then you need to stop lecturing me with banalities from second or third sources and turn to the issues at hand, that is the analysis of the protocols. So far you have said that you are against "gambling," although I did not ask you why you'd be opposed to Armenia gaining an upper hand in this game in case Turkey refuses to ratify? In case Turkey does not ratify, Armenia can and should with reservations to the text. It won't be a deal, it will be Armenia reinstating our position. What's your problem with that? Please note, I am not interested in what Boyadjian who is of courseright, Aivazian, Hariyunian et al. have to say on this. Not even Friedman.
To Arman: "Chpetk e Haiastani ev Artskhi tntesakan zagatsume zohaberel anirakanali erazanknerin." You have a point. But who gives you the right to pay for Haiastan ev Arstsakh economic development with other people's rights, memory, and property (that's us, the survivors' heirs)? You have every right to qualify as "anirakanali erazank" my --most probably unreal-- hopes, but you, or anyone else, have no right to wipe them out for your own "economic development." It may be unreal, but it's mine. You want economic development, you should negotiate giving away something that's yours, not mine.
To John: Do what its best for your country. Don't mess with my rights. Give away something that's yours. Living in Armenia (that is, a small part of Eastern Armenia) does not give you the right to decide for the legitimate heirs and survivors of Western Armenia. So, forget about us and let us pursue our issues or otherwise die out honorably and in relative peace ("relative" being a reference to being haunted just by Turks, and not also by our brothers, or should we already say "cousins" who "live in" Armenia). "Living in" is an expression that denotes an increasing trend by Armenia dwellers to consider themselves a territorial-geographic nation, far removed from the "cultural nation" notion, practically advanced since the times of Mesrop Mastoc and company.
Well said: "this in turn might make the diaspora realize that it needs to renegotiate its identity vis-à-vis Armenia and look beyond the rhetoric of “one nation, one people.”"
David Davidian,
Please, I ask the moderators to let me set the record straight on Davidian's commentary above.
In 1996 (apparently the fellow keeps a meticulous record and quasi-official grievances) I merely ended the self-declared dicatatorship assumed by David Davidian over Armenian Internet discourse. David Davidian had a set of guidelines as to what can and what cannot be discussed, and he would attempt to enforce them with irrational outbursts and attacks. He considered his position quite fragile, apparently, which is by the way quite the opposite of the confident statements in condemnation of Theriaults' alleged defeatism above. I never considered Davidian to be the enemy at any point in time. Davidian chose to leave the scene - due to the lack of worship for this heroism on my behalf. He was accustomed to that sort of heroic treatment, and was not accustomed to criticism. He didn't appreciate my thesis, that internal dialog, internal solutions must be the priority, and no one, including Davidian, has the right to curb dicussions on domestica affairs of Armenians. "The garden at home must be tended to first" was not appreciate. Davidian considered that to be "undue exposure of our own dirty laundry which the Turks will use against me (i.e. Davidian)." My counter argument was that Turkish intelligence already knows enough about our internal divisions and irrationally beset party lines.
In addition, I do not ever see Martirosyan as the enemy, despite my comments out of frustration on occasion. Martirosyan's immeasurably valuable participation in the debates against Azeri propagandists in those hot years at the aftermath of the war are always in my memory, and I still use his arguments when the need arises to counteract Azeri propaganda.
My objection above is in reference specificially to the comment where Davidian falsely characterizes my cititation (under his article) on Shant Hariyunyan's cautionary article concerning the protocols, the entire counterfiet "normalizataion" process - which is still easily seen as a colonization process. Hariyunyan clearly states that the protocols can bring about similar conditions where the relations in the caucasus are paralleled with the 1920-1922 period, and therefore can be used to re-affirm the Kars Treaty and the Moscow Treaty. Shant Hariyunyan is not the enemy either. He is a former distinguished commander during the 1992-1994 war.
Gary, it is a fact that foreign operatives were far too numerous to dismiss Russian allegations that the NATO block, Israeli and Saudis were heavily involved. The Wahhabi movement in the Caucasus is directly and openly sponsored by the Saudi, and anytime there is the need to destroy Russian power, the strange bedfellows of the Saudis are always there.
Dear Hagop Nalbandyan,
Assuming futurologist (meteorologist employs scientific methods, futurologist does not) Friedman, a mediocre CIA analyst, who has occupied every corner of your mind, is right about the era of Turan on the horizon of his cubicle at Langley, what is it that you are proposing to do? I already have learned from you that we cannot rely on decadent Russia and impotent EU and US.
David,
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We're not done yet. Your reasons for going into hibernation are weak. You're not willing to put up a fight. You sulk and then you leave. Not good. Not good at all brother. You're better than that. You should know better than to make such assumptions as you did in the other article (Theriault's article). Think on a wider scope. This at a deeper level. Of all the written data, there is infinitely more unwritten/unpublished dialog and data. My disagreements should not be misconstrued as an attempt at "scapegoating you" for crying out loud.
Karen Mktrchyan, there are far too many assumptions on the positive outcome of such a dynamic economic relationship. The one Iran, although supposedly on friendly terms and with no need for "protocols" is still an uneven relationship, and even that border has not been competently secured and has been used as a means to infiltrated Armenia by Erazis, by Azeri military scouts and so on. I hear constant testimonials on this right from the border. The Arax border is somewhat protected better due to the type of relationship, but this is to be changed. There is no guarantee by this incompetent administration that any precautionary measures at the economic and national security levels will be taken. David's argument is incomplete. I did not ever say it is wrong or right. I said it is incomplete.
The Suren up above is assumably Suren Sarafian. The tone of condemnation of diasporans and "genocide obsessive maniacs" is his cliche signature. Turkey in this case is not merely Turkey. It is not a matter of whether "Turkey is outsmarting Russia." It is a matter of a hodge-podge of financial interests within Russia, the US, the EU, who are interested in certain redrawings of maps, and Russia is a nation state controlled by a bureacracy who is in turn controlled by an oligrachy that is not driven by patriotism and "Mother Russia" sloganism by any means. It would be naive to state that Russia is not the instrument itself of these financial interests, these controlling conglomerates and oligarchs to set a certain pace in Eurasia to their favor. The largest commercial empire (and that is precisely what she was) in the late 19th and early 20th century, the period which saw so much bloodshed for us Armenians, was the British, and the British were avid Turkophiles for the reason that they saw the Ottomans as a tool and not as competition. They saw the Russian Empire and its controlling monarchy and nobility as direct competition. After the huge bloodletting during the "internationalist" Bolshevik regime, the very character of Russia has been largely transformed to be a denationalized landscape baesd on commercial concerns, and the "Mother Russia" rhetoric is truly merely the frosting on the cake whenever there is a party. The cake itself is controlled by finance, commerce, which is a global phenomenon increasingly so. The naive outlook of "this country versus that country" is superficial at best. Russia is, in my opinion, being driven toward further self-inflicted suicide, and the signs are all there. It is no longer a first worlder with the completementary infrastructures to maintain a first worlder population and socio-economic level. it is drifting into 2nd world oligarch driven model. Turkey, on the other hand, is being increasingly consolidated at the popular level as a nation-state model, and the nation-state status and its enforcement are not being criticized by the customary critics of nation state building: i.e. the usual Anglo-American "leftist" media lambasts against "fascism" everytime there is a country that wants to consolidate their internal socio-political status and demographics. "Russia" is not facing "Turkey" in this instance. It is facing the huge block that sponsors Turkey and its impending neo-ottomanism.
The author said this:
"This statement does not imply, implicitly or explicitly, that the genocide is not important for people in Armenia; rather it argues that the needs (emotional, physical, or otherwise) of a collective living on a piece of land known as Armenia are not similar to those living in the United States, the Middle East, or Europe."
Contrary to the implication of the above statement, the genocide is actually more important from a practical standpoint for Armenia than the Diaspora. Witness the Russian soldiers on the Turkish Armenian border. Aside from those troops' being a projection of Russian power for Russia's sake, did Armenia agree to have them stationed there because Armenia is under no threat from Turkey? No, the reason must be that Armenia itself perceives a real threat. Probably a genocidal one. The threat was there going way back to even before the 1915 Genocide as Turkey made repeated thrusts to the east.
In an issue of the Gomidas Institute's now defunct Armenian Forum, Simon Payaslian, Nicolas Tavitian and Khatchig Der Ghoukassian made pleas for why genocide recognition is important to Armenia. I will not comment on those articles.
I will simply say that those who think that the genocide is a fixation only of the diaspora - and that is what is implied above despite the disclaimer - would do well to remember the 1965 marches in Yerevan, and Armenians' calling Azeris "Turks" during the Karabagh conflict. If Karabagh perceived a threat of annihilation from the "new" Azerbaijan, is it unreasonable that Armenia might recall the genocide as an important threat from the "new" Turkey?
There have been many things written about why the Genocide and reparations and land issues are important, even if unobtainable now, for Armenia, but those who disparage the genocide issue tend to not read or heed them -- even Armenian American academicians who have come to seemingly own - or think they own - the platform when it comes to speaking out on Armenian political issues.
There is an undercurrent of feeling by some that 'if we pursue the Genocide issue, Turks may be even more inclined to commit genocide again; therefore, caution, even passivity, is in order when it comes to the Genocide.' If the author does not believe that is the proper attitude, please tell us why.
I would also like to know if the author thinks that a joint genocide commission is a good idea, especially one on which Turkish deniers sit alongside Armenians. Is this a good type of jury?
Does this joint commission indicate that the current Armenian government knows how to negotiate when even the IAGS and Zoryan think the idea is absurd?
I am fascinated that some Armenians in Armenia post quite a bit on American Armenian websites telling Armenian Americans to, in effect, stay out of Armenia's affairs.
If we Armenian Americans are so irrelevant, just ignore us as ineffectual, distant, and irrelevant. Or might some Armenian Americans have something important to say and do? Perhaps some in Armenia do not like that because they don't like America?
Funny how Armenian Americans are depicted by some Hayastanstis as rich and comfortable. They don't know how Armenians struggled after the genocide and came here poverty stricken and worked their way up over many decades, preserving the culture (such as this paper). and trying to help Armenia in whatever way we could. Remember the earthquake of 1988?
No, I think that the grassroots in Armenian truly recognize the worth of working with the Diaspora instead of calling us nasty names. It is a select few on websites lately who express what can only be called resentment and jealousy.
No other country of such small size, except Israel, has such a committed diaspora. The diaspora is God's way of telling Turkey that it won't get away with what it did.
Armenia needs to consider that Germany itself refused to sign a Treaty that would break East Germany away from Western Germany . . . because of this, Germany was able to be united when the wall came down. Armenia must reject the Kars Treaty once and for all.
There goes the condescending style again. That's how you want it. Metereologist is a scientist, but works with unpredictable conditions. Futurologist is obviously not a scientist, but essentially a propaganda agent, a test mechanism for ideas, and brainwashing/conditioning instrument. Russia's impotence is evident first and foremost by its total loss of the warsaw pact. Russia is also 1.4 times larger as an economy that Turkey alone, which is a sign of impotence and no longer the sign of a sustainable imperial power. They're pumping gas and oil, selling guns, but nothing else. They are dying as an empire. The US is impotent when it concerns pressuring Turkey. The EU is a club run by two known and confirmed Turkophiles. Out of all this, you keep on drilling in the idea that "there is PR involved where Turkey will be left with diplomatic obligations to honor." Nonsense. You keep on jumping around this sentence with attempts to rephrase and justify, but you fail repeatedly to get out of this hole. No one will guarantee Armenians anything except Armenians, and the problem is that Armenians are not being consulted or mobilized by the trash in Yerevan, who is all but too ready to make concessions with a hostile. They don't even know how to deal with a non-hostile like Iran, with whom they also have a net loss relationship and insecure border.
I have already answered your question multiple times.
You answer my 4 questions above.
Dear Nalbandyan,
Are you suggesting that you are operating a network of informants on the border? David's arguments are complete as far as the EXPLICIT text goes, it is up to those who claim to be in the know of more about the process and, obviously, see deeper into "unwritten\unpublished dialog and data". I normally leave that to coffee fortune tellers. You are almost as good as one Iranian Armenian I know in Yerevan. For a couple of bucks she can produce more reliable forecasting than Friedman.
We can at least learn to speak to one another. I think there are ways to do this, no matter how upset we are, how familiar we are with our opponents, how old the arguments are. It's possible.
My family came from "two sides" too (one parent Prelacy, one parent Diocese). But I grew up in the AYF. In the juniors, we learned the discipline of Robert's Rules of Orders, so we could at least have efficient and orderly meetings. I don't know how it works now, but there really are ways we could speak to one another.
Of course, being who I am, I might be the first one to violate my own advice. But we can TRY to have to discipline to do this!
I don't understand why we have this thing of so easily falling into condescension and disgust. It's a bad trait.
that should be "Robert's Rules of Order." And no, I didn't mention the AYF to put a "side" to anything. It's just my life.
Hagop jan, I did not insinuate that I was a nationalist. I don't take that term lightly. I did not fight in the war for Artsakh's liberation, I did not serve in Armenia's military, I currently do not reside in Armenia, I don't work for Armenia, I am not proficient in Armenian, etc... I am not good enough to be consider an Armenian nationalist. But I do love my homeland dearly. However, most self-proclaimed nationalists here and elsewhere, not necessarily you, are far from being Armenian nationalists in my opinion.
I'm impressed that you are aware of the West's intimate role in the Islamic insurgencies that have ravaged Central Asia, Caucasus and the Balkans for the past twenty years. An overwhelming majority of "Armenian nationalists" are in the dark about this very important topic. The funny part is that had Russia been defeated in the Caucasus all our wannabe Armenian nationalists would not have known what hit them... Again, I ask you to read the book "Chechen Jihad".
Me, a Russophile?
I don't speak Russian too well. I am not too familiar with Russia's national heritage. I would never live in Russia, nor would I get along with the average Russian. I am a political realist. I see that Armenia's existence in the Caucasus for the foreseeable future is directly related to how well Armenia attaches its national interests to that of Moscow's. We, simply speaking, don't have another option. If this makes me a Russophile, then so be it.
Russia, not adapt at maintaining an empire?
Looking at it from a historic perspective, that's a silly comment you made. In about four hundreds years of rule as an empire Russia had only one major screw-up - the Bolshevik revolution. The Soviet collapse was basically the inevitable, prolonged, downfall of the Bolsheviks. Had it not been for the Third Reich, I don't think the Soviet Union would have lasted even into the 1950s... Today's Russia is beginning to resemble the Russian Empire of old. So, in a certain sense, the Russian Empire is back after about seventy years of a hibernation. Just be happy that for Russia today Armenia serves a vital strategic role. It was Russia's presence in the Caucasus in the 18-19 centuries that enabled us Armenians to create a nation-state. For better or for worst, under Soviet rule we were able to develop our nation from a dusty Islamic desert to a modern republic. And it is Russia's presence in the Caucasus today that is helping us maintain our current republic as well as Artsakh. Had it not been for Russians we Armenians would be lamenting Western Armenia as well as Eastern Armenia...
Let's look at economics now:
All indicators suggest that the West is in a gradual decline. Simply put, there are no vast amounts of raw materials for its massive economies to exploit anymore and its populations are far too complacent to be effective in the competitive global market.
Indicators also suggest that the East - China, India and Russia in particular - is in a gradual rise. As far as Russia is concerned, for the past five to ten years Russia has been buying up all sorts of major corporations and industries - from the United States to Asia. They have been restructuring their industrial capacity. They are improving their banking system. They are monopolizing control of energy distribution networks. They are overhauling their military. They are working on their demographic problems... Moreover, the Russian Federation, by far the largest nation on earth, controls something like 20% of all natural resources on earth - not counting the massive oil/gas reserves found in the Arctic region. From precious metals to precious stones, from oil/gas to wood, from fresh water to arable land - Russia, even if it does not develop its industry, it can sustain the globe for generations to come. And if they ever get their act straight within the next couple of decades, which is what it looks like they are trying to do currently, expect them to be 'the' dominate force on earth. Russia's gargantuan natural wealth is why the West, since Napoleon's time, has coveted Russia and has tried to dismantle it.
I am convinced (perhaps hopeful) that Russia will be in the driving seat in 21 century and beyond and I simply want my tiny, poor and landlocked republic in the Caucasus to be at least in its passenger seat. I look at the current political process taking place between Turkey and Armenia as an extension of what I am discussing here. Russia is in control in the Caucasus and it is using Armenia as a staging ground to project its economic-military-political power in the region. Armenia has not had a political chance like this in centuries.
Dear Nalbandyan,
You are quoting liberally Davidian's article, adding a quote from my earlier responses in a stew of haphazard arguments. You have to decide whether you are commenting on Davidian's article or debating my points. As to geopolitics, broader historical context, going back to 1920s if not to Berlin Conference, I do not have time or interest debating these issues in this forum. It is not set up for these purposes and I do not consider you an expert on these issues. To your credit you are apparently reading secondary sources but that is not enough for a quality analysis. Again, if you want to discuss protocols (the explicit text) and its implications, I can stay with you provided you disclose your position - are you against any process now because Armenia is too weak and Turkey is getting stronger OR are you for the process but against this version of protocols? In a professional lingo, are you for sticking to our alternatives to the deal OR are you for the analysis of the deal on the table? In the first case, I'd be only interested in hearing why you think that weak Armenia (you stated that several times and I cannot agree with all points) has strong alternatives to stick to a NO to the troika. There is not much to debate there except expressing differences. I have mentioned in the other forum why I think it is an erroneous position - methodologically it is based on an assumption that all negotiations are about give and take bargaining (distributive), quid pro quo et al. , from a practical policy perspective there is a contradiction in terms of analysis, namely, if Armenia is weak, how can the country have strong alternatives to the deal pushed by the troika?
If you uphold the second position, then you have to thank David Davidian for his article, and move to policy options in this discussion. We can debate different policy options or ways to improve (optimize) the current deal if you have any ideas on your mind. If you don't, I will understand, after all, this is not your professional background. I will also have much less time to engage as I am off tomorrow to Iraq to help Kurds and Arabs negotiate a "sewage pipe" in Kirkuk. Tell me what you want to do, and we will take it from there.
Mr. Sassounian -- the Armenian parliament is not a real institution.
Do you know what the last serious debate in parliament was centered around? The price of land around Lake Sevan. And this only happened because Hovik Abrahamyan, the speaker, is financially at odds with many members in the republican party, as he admitted during the debate: "Trust me, I have personal knowledge and a personal stake in this issue!"
You expect a thoughtful debate moderated by people who address each other by their mafioso names? "Mook" - for example, is the Speaker's name, "Jchanj," "Kris," "Kyazh," "Lefik Samo," "Dodi Gago."
This is a waste of time.
Very well done.
Hi Arthur. You wrote:
The other group, like yourself, has been arguing for normalization but against this version of the protocols. If this is a genuine position, the proponents of this position should be able to spell out what kind of protocol would be better and even optimal. This kind of discussion would have some value for policy option generation. However, those who make this argument, in addition to spelling out the best option on the table, would need to make sure that it is indeed an option but not wishful thinking. The difference is very simple – the best option on the table has to better satisfy our interests than our alternatives (walkaway options) and the current deal, should meet the interests of other players and be acceptable for Turks. This requires hard work to put us ahead of the enemy in the thinking game.
In all honesty, I think we can start from step number one in an answer to this question. That is, very simply, to ask why the government of Armenia does not work hand in hand with the diaspora in its lobbying efforts. It is perhaps a result of lack of democratic experience, I don't know ... but it is easy to say that one has a constituency that will not allow it to agree to some things. This is exactly what Turkey does ALL the time: they threaten the US that their country will be destabilized if the US government recognizes the genocide. So what is to stop the Armenian government from pointing to the very organized and strong lobbying of the diaspora and say that it cannot afford to "beat down" those who are so committed among its population and its supporters? Armenia's government is acting as if it gets absolutely nothing from the diaspora either politically or economically. This is a foolish thing to do, to throw away that political organization. It is easy to say no to a historical commission from that perspective. And if "no" is not possible, how about a guarantee that its make-up will be of international scholars of a certain status or those who are recognized by the International Association of Genocide Scholars? That's just an example off the top of my head. But most importantly, any politician can point to an active and potent and vocal and organized constituency and say that he or she cannot afford to alienate them or go too strongly against their wishes. Again, Turkey does this all the time.
Excellent article.
Turks on the joint commission will be deniers and will always prevent a unanimous decision of genocide. You would think that supporters of the protocols would realize this simple fact.
No, Turks are simply shopping around for one study that will not come out with a decision aht 1915 was genocide. You think you've been shocked by the protocols? Just wait for the joint commission.
Even if there are neutral historians on the commission, they may take a "midway" position to attempt to be "fair." For example, they may say "'Yes, there were murders, but no document has been found in which Talaat explicitly wrote 'I hereby order you to kill all Armenians.'" Or the neutral historians will feel heat from the universities at which they teach to come to a decision that is highly politicized. Even if they have tenure, they are afraid to speak out lest their university offices be relegated to the basement and they are denied grant money in the future. Academia doesn't work that way, huh?
I have no doubt too that Turks will work behind the scenes to threaten neutral historians with unpleasant repurcussions.
The Turks will also attempt to show that it was Armenians who committed genocide, not Turks. Armenia hasn't the slightest idea what it has let itself in for.
To show you how politicized the process can be, take the TARC/ICTJ genocide study of a few years ago. It was rigged, probably by moderator and former US Defense consultant David Philips, so that it would grudgingly give Armenians something (a half-hearted acknowledgement of genocide) and Turks something (that Armenians can't get reparations or land). I even heard David Philips speak at NAASR one night in which he tried to foist the idea of "you can't get land or reparations" onto the audience of mostly aging, non-politicized Armenians. (You would think that NAASR would have balanced the talk with an Armenian who opposed TARC). I know someone who went up to Philips afterward and asked him about reparations and Philips said "What, you want reparations?" There is a continual attempt by the US and Europe (EU Parliament, 1984) to get Armenians to accept a half-baked genocide acknowledgment in return for giving up all other claims.
And yet some Armenians love the Philips. AAA loves the guy because it does not care about reparations and territory.
Speaking of reparations, I heard Samantha "Please Vote for Saint Obama" Power talk at Tufts a few years ago, and she also disparaged the idea of reparations by telling the mainly student audience that "Oh, you don't want a check from the Turks, do you?" She has really never understood the issue of reparations. By the way, she hasn't been heard from since she got a NSC job with Obama and the latter nominated her hubby, Cass Sunstein, to be regulatory czar.
Very bad article.
PS In Turkey, Sarkisian (sp) made the statement more or less that he only traveled to the Diaspora in order to dictate to it. I mean, seriously. Is that really necessary? It just sounds like chest beating to a foreign potentate one has to please with one's strongman ability. I have no doubt that "strongmen" are the types certain governments (and I'm not excluding the more deluded among my own) feel comfortable dealing with. Still, to stand up for some form of democracy is *possible.*
Martirosyan, your exclusive invitation is inconsequential and meaningless. Your decisions are nullified by the most natural right for free speech and free will, and I would advise you stop making a further mockery of yourself in that regard. First, second, third, fourth, fifth, whatever (so far false) categorization of sources is irrelevant and equally meaningless. All sources and available information bring to the fore questions and concerns that neither you or David have ably answered, David and his INCOMPLETE geopolitical analysis are about as useful as E. Nalbandyan is the "co-drafter of the protocols".
Apparently your so-called "privileged" sources also cannot rule out the possibility, which is more so probability, that there will be power sharing in the region. It is in fact irrelevant if the honeymoon was shortlived or long-lived between Trotsky and Kemal. The fact is that it was used by Kemal to secure red support when needed, and the Moscow Treaty was formed. There is no guarantee, especially by an overdependent Armenian "nation-state" which is more so an oligarch business project than a state, that a "longer honeymoon" might not happen since indeed Russian power overall is waning in comparison to the rapid economic developments globally including within Turkey and fellow Turkic economies. I don't need goddamn "privileged sources" of whatever categorization to see what's plainly evident. The "oligarch corporation" which we pretend to be a nation-state at this juncture is a incompetent club of "beezneessmen" who merely now how to sell, and they have not a clue on how to mobilize Armenian power worldwide, nor do are they aware or care. They are primitive apparatchiks whose concessions of late are condemned by every thinking Armenian. The obvious component of a better solution would have been the proper mobilization of Armenians all over, but this is automatically dismissed by the traditional (usually Russophile) naysayers to potential Armenian strength. Also, do not even make your usual primitive attempts to place the ball of prejudice in my court. There is clear understanding of the distinction between Russophiles and Russhophones who are Armenian nationalists.
Also, no one branded David a "traitor." I personally branded him as a "superb technician," which is precisely what he is, a technician with the ability to put a puzzle together with mathematical formulas and grids, always assuming he has all the pieces in hand, which is as preposterous a position as can get. For every line published in your "privileged sources," and for every "official leak," there is a million not disclosed. Therefore, intuition of illiterates is more valuable, always, than the doltishness of the men of letter, of "technicians" who take things at face value and do not account for the actual interests and intentions thereof.
I fully realize for my own reasons the opportunism behind the rabble-rousing by ARF, but at the same time I don't blame the masses for joining this rally. They look at things from the realistic viewpoint where the Turkish character has not changed, not one bit. The constantly touted tolerant portion of Turkish society has always existed at the same level, and perhaps even at higher levels, in the past, and their input has been nullified by various forces who push to the front and give power to the fascists. The usage of "Doom and gloom" as a discrediting method is a standard propaganda instrument used by aggressors against sentinels. I suggest you stop participating in that game. There is no irrational doom and gloom. There is realistic concern, and you systematically avoid all questions and concerns regarding this. It took in fact many postings to finally draw from you the acknowledgment that Turkey is a hostile state. Until then you were blaring the official Yerevan line, with of course one exception, probably becuase it would have made you look really bad: The inclusion of the historic commission.
Go ahead, Martirosyan, keep on trying to silence me.
Dear Paul,
Are you referring to a specific comment in this forum or is that a preventive salvo, just in case? I made this clear in the other thread and I will repeat here - the Armenian nation includes two states and diaspora. For me anyone who claims Armenian identity through one or more attributes - language, culture, shared history is Armenian. Anyone who is trying to use these attributes or residence as dividing lines is unwillingly and\or unconsciously working to advance the agenda of our enemies. This said, I recognize that we are all different and the key national challenge is to manage these difference to produce unity especially in time of crisis. The protocols have resulted in a crisis. If we allow it to widen the gap, divided we will fall. In fact, our enemies keep a keen eye on this process. As a leading Azeri propagandist, Vugar Seidov, commented recently, there are no obvious gains for Turkey and Azerbaijan from these protocols, except one - "the Armenian world is divided beyond repair." I am sure we will prove him and other "well wishers" wrong. If they manage to divide us, rest assured our weaknesses will be immediately exploited in this process which is in its early stages, and not only in this one. I know it is going to be hard but as the Chinese hieroglyph for the word crisis suggests it comes with loss and opportunity. Given we are not Chinese, and yet we have no choice but to minimize losses if any and maximize opportunities to come out stronger than ever. Please do not take this as a message to gloss over the mistakes but rather to learn and move on. We can do it, as your president says.
Professor Semerdjian, I couldn't have said it better. In fact, I attempted to in a letter to the editor of the Washington post last night around 3:00. Do you think you can shorten this article to 200 words and submit it the Washinton Post? If you are too busy I would be willing to take a crack at it for you.
My letter was in reply to "Opening a Border" in the Wednesday, October 14th edition of the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/13/AR2009101302798.html
Best Regards,
Grant Izmirlian
Am I suggesting that I have a network of information? Yes, I am suggesting something to that effect, yes.
I don't have to decide anything. I am directing my comments at both of you. Your lack of interest in debating past history is unimportant. I wish to discuss the issue from where it deserves to be discussed: i.e. from the longer historical context.
OK, let me take your offer for analysis of the protocols, something which I have been asking for quite a long time. Let me re-disclose my position, my own position: Normalization is necessary, but with precautions.
Dear Paultor,
The article never argues that the Genocide issue is not important for Armenia, rather Armenians in Armenia do not go on talking about it on a regular basis as the diasporans do. your argument about the practically of the Genocide issue from Armenia's perspective is a valid one.
couple of corrections though. I have spent some time examining the reasons why Armenians equate Azeris with Turks and in numerous conversations with individuals and specialists on the field, the overwhelming response has been that they do make a distinction between an Azeri and a Turk however because of language similarities in popular culture the two are equated.
I do not subscribe to the point o f view that if one doesn't talk about the Genocide the Turks would be less inclined to commit a Genocide, rather I argue that genocide recognition through 3rd parties has so far not yield results hence this protocol might provide an opportunity to change gear and take the Genocide recognition to the next level and that is among the Turkish society. most of the people at the protocol signing ceremony represent countries which had recognize the Genocide as some level yet did they change their policy towards Turkey?
as far as the whole issue of the joint sub-commission, the protocols are vague about it. they don't say if it's going to be a sub-commission to examine whether or not the Genocide happened, or if it's going to be a group to categorize the archives or to organize conferences or some other thing. if the sub-commission is meant to examine whether or not the genocide happened than my answer would be an absolute no for such a group, but with the current wording I don't see it as being a threat or a challenge about the validity of the Genocide.
the bottom line is that if the Armenian government has been shortsighted in pursuing their foreign policy, the Diaspora has been even more unprepared and living in la la land for a) not being prepared for this inevitability(the first signs of which were obvious even back in 1993-94) and b)continuing a policy which did not yield in results comparable ot the energy that was pored into it.
kind regards.
Dear Hagop Nalbandyan,
Let me start with points of agreement - no one will guarantee anything to Armenia but Armenians. Yes, the Armenian government did not do enough to consult in a genuine fashion with diaspora. There are elements of art in giving advice to policy-makers. I can see why input from you may be hard to take even if you were right.
Now a few disagreements. My condescending tone is not known to you thanks to the moderator -- and I mean it.
If Turkey does not respect its obligations, no one can oblige Armenia to stay in the agreement. If the troika cannot secure that much, they will lose diplomatic space for pressure on Armenia, Obama won't be able to say, I can't use it, they are talking; and you can continue this line. We tried, we did all that was possible, therefore our POSITIVE NO is validated.
If you insist that exercises in futurology have policy value or relevance, you are obviously wrong. You may be correct about brainwashing effects - I can see that impact.
You still did not answer my question - Assuming your analysis is correct (I disagree with many points) Turan is there, what are you proposing to do? Please do not repeat how you have diagnosed impotence and decadence. The question is in bold. There is one more question that you need to answer for us to continue. It is up to you, I am not trying to impose this discussion on you. The learning value for me without your answers to the question above and below, is almost at 0.
Where do you stand, Hagop jan, "justice, no protocols" or "normalization, not with this version of protocols"?
It's a harsh reality and the Armenian Diaspora will have to come to terms with it: the Armenian Republic is a land with a similar language and similar folklore, but today it is, for you, the Diasporan, a foreign country run by whatever machinations that are in power, with its own interests and agendas. Any Diasporan who dares to hold on to strong cultural memories and live as such, is runs the danger of being called unpatriotic by both their country of residence and , now, because of their outcry, by the country of their kinsmen , as in "where were you when we suffered, you don't understand, eating caviar and driving mercedes all day in America, France, etc". Similar language and folklore, certainly, but strikingly different in our world view. The day the Armenian nation will truly be a nation and not a collection of millets plus a wee neighborhood in the Caucasus is when it realizes that we are different and respects those differences, and makes an honest effort to bridge them. Those who fight for genocide resolution and against the Turkish misinformation machine should be commended (not derided), but time and again final success is taken out of their hands by something much bigger and increasingly sinister. Even the Great Hope himself (Obama) could not stand up to it. This same "group of interests" went to Serj and dictated terms that he could not refuse. The die is cast, we are seeing the world for what it is, and hopefully we will see a good solid plan from our leaders in the near future. Hope springs eternal.
The Armenian world is not divided. Ironically, even formerly anti-diasporan elements in Armenia are now on the same wavelength. The three diasporan parties are on better terms than ever. There is only one division that is apparent: That which is between the people and Sargsyan's sorry administration as well as the oligarchs.
By the way -- perhaps I should read David Davidian's analysis better, but I hope someone can answer this question -- just what *is* the language on this historical commission part of the protocol?
Will it allow Armenia to object to non-biased historians? Does it provide for some sort of academic status (such as membership in IAGS) qualifications for a participant? Etc. Is their room for negotiation on what it discusses? For example, could the TARC conclusions from the study of the International Center for Transitional Justice (such as I have read described here) be admissible?
Hello, Gagik. You wrote:
Even the Great Hope himself (Obama) could not stand up to it. This same “group of interests” went to Serj and dictated terms that he could not refuse.
Do you know what this put into my mind? My grandfather surviving the marches, eating from garbage piles, refusing to go to the orphanage and give up his religion. You must realize that we in the diaspora have grandparents who said "no" to everything, who watched their families killed because they would not give up their identity and their religion. Can we live with that and the idea that Sarkissian *could not* say no? They who risked massacre, butchery and starvation and said "no" anyway are our forbears here in the diaspora.
Normalization is necessary, but with precautions.
See, Hagop jan, we are almost in an agreement. I think that David Davidian wrote in the article - that his piece is not about supporting protocols but understanding. I am sure you will share with this group your policy recommendations on precautions. May be you will write an article and publish it in Yerevan and here. Even if powers that be do not heed, you will set the tone for the RATIONAL on debating policy. I am positive that Davidian's intention was only that.
My formula is slightly different - normalization at our pace and on our terms
Good luck - I will try to read this forum on the road but cannot commit to more exchanges.
Janine,
The protocols are available on the internet (and a very quick read). My first search produced them on the "stop the protocols" site. Their version has some highlighted words, but you can read it nonetheless. (In case the link doesn't work, just go to their website and click on "The Protocols" tab at the very top of the page.
http://stoptheprotocols.com/category/the-facts/
To answer your questions: it does not indicate who will be invited to the commission, nor provides a list of qualifications. In its words: "implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations."
Hasmig
A great article, Prof. Semerdjian! Your arguments are right on the mark. Thanks for writing this commentary!
Hagop jan,
I am not going to ask you what data you have used for your conclusion. But even if the division bells are tolling the way you've described, that is significant in my book. Unfortunately, that framing also includes diasporans who have supported Sargsyan. The only way to minimize the gap and leave only opposition to the regime on other grounds is to engage in a rational discourse and prove to ourselves, to our enemies and to the entire world that the thinking game is a vantage Armenian quality. By this I only mean that first and foremost the language of "traitors", "paid agents" from one side and "takanks" from the other has to be removed once and for all. Next on the agenda should be structured analysis and debate at the policy level. This requires leadership on both sides, patience and active listening to understand which does not mean agreement. I am less confident in the policy analysis and quality debate - I have not seen any serious policy analysis attempts coming from Armenia and in diaspora I saw very few, including Davidian's article and Sasounian's recommendations.
Indeed, this is the weakest component of the protocols - vague and allowing ambivalent readings. The Armenian leadership tried to qualify the reading of this provision in the aftermath. Still, protocols would have been much less open to divisive interpretations had the language on terms of reference, timeline, modalities were included. There are still a number of ways to address this deficiency. For me the litmus test for the Armenian diplomacy will be in its ability to negotiate these points with Swiss and others' mediation. A recourse policy needs to be designed now to deal with failure to reach an agreement on these issues and\or Turkish procrastination tactics. I have already mentioned that US, EU and Russia are likely to channel this component of the process to the TARC-like format. There are some early signs and evidence for that and that's exactly what scares the Turkish opponents of the protocols. To avoid future crisis we need a sufficient national consensus on that kind of outcome, the red lines, non-negotiables and above all the structure of a broad consultative process prior to decision-making. Without these elements of internal track negotiations we are destined to repeat the same mistake of dealing with a fait accompli. My two cents.
Aram. I agree with the spirit of everything you say, but there are limits to what non-military grass roots efforts can accomplish when pitted against the national interests of countries. What we have here is the second Internationalization of the Armenian Quesiton. The first Internationalization of the Armenian Question started with the Great Powers ostensibly taking up the cause of the Armenians with the Treaty of San Stephano and continuing through 1920. Well, we all know how that ended up namely, the Sovietization of the nascent First Republic and the near extinction of the Armenians as a people, notwithstanding that at the time there was an enormous groundswell of public support for the Armenian people and cause. One would have thought that we would have learned from that wretched historical experience that we cannot allow others to control or dictate our national interests.
But no, here we go again committing the same political blunders, namely allowing the West to once again Internationalize the Armenian Question, control and dictate our national interests, except this time it is our historical claims and quest for justice that is consigned to oblivion.
I do not buy any of the excuses for the signing of the Protocols, that Armenia is a poor landlocked country, with no natural resources, yev aylen, yev aylen. The problem is that Armenia is not dealing from a position of military strength. The Diaspora shares in the blame. Why don't we have tens of thousands of Diaspora Armenians going to Armenia and Karabagh to train and serve two week tours as unpaid volunteers in a military reserve capacity. It is not against U.S. Citizenship Laws to do so. We should immediately approach the Karabagh government to initiate and accept volunteers for such a Diaspora Military Reserve program. The benefits and advantages are enormous. First, it strengthens Karabagh militarily. Secondly, it will give heart and enouragement to the people of Karabagh to see that the Diaspora is commited to the defense of Karabagh in deed as well as in word. Thirdly, it will strengthen the Armenianness of all Diaspora volunteers who serve. Fourthly, the monies spent locally by the volunteers during their two week training program will help the Karabagh economy. If the Karabagh government initiates such a program, I will be the first to volunteer. Maybe such a program already exists. Does anyone know?
How can we stop the protocols?
Nevertheless, normalization is an ambiguous term in this context. "At our pace" is an equally undefinable concept due to fact that we are dealing with people in pseudo-government who do not 1) believe in the possibility of true Armenian autonomy (which - I will repeat until liquid nitrogen drips from my nostrils, parallels the situation in 1920-1922), 2) does not merely exclude this dynamic and changing group of people we wish to call the "diaspora," which now consists of a large number of expatriates, a huge percentage of whom were repatriates in the various waves of repatriation, but also 3) excludes the local population in Armenia from any real participation in the processes, including this so-called "normalization process" which is no less than a colonization process.
As to the lack of willingness to dialog on behalf of these KGB apparatchiks pretending to be our sovereigns, you are minimizing their TREASONOUS misdeeds by simply "agreeing" to this one half-hearted so-called concession: "the Armenian government did not do enough to consult in a genuine fashion with diaspora.
The "government" currently in fact engages in an elaborate brainwashing campaign where the populations of Armenia are constantly fed false history, a whitewashed "history" where, in some of the more extreme version such as that of vermin-in-chief Bleyan where "we have no true grievances with Turks to speak of." Why, indeed, is a mongrel such as Bleyan allowed to be "Principal" to 1200 cycles pupils where he has free reign to brainwash them with his treasonous and warped concept of "history?" Why, indeed, have not the authorities taken measures to curb such obviously ANTI-ARMENIAN activity? I can get you numerous FIRST SOURCE examples of such distortions of history at the grade school to university levels, where a few brave individuals have come and protested against such disgusting "normalization" tactics.
Originally this last aspect of the so-called "normalization process" is what I brought to the table, which you consistently ridiculed as "doom-and-glooming, murky accusations of treason" and other copout nonsense. You did not ever answer directly and systematically took your so-called "argument" to some muddy waters in lala land. For this reason I got the impression that you are an agent for this government. When you systematically discredit the voices that speak out against this undeniable reality where the Armenian "government" controlled media and academia is consistently attempting to brainwash the populations, then, forgive my presumptuousness, but you are still not a trustworthy individual.
I am waiting for concrete acknowledgment that the government is in fact deceving its own population into accepting a "process" of which these wishy washy protocols are a subset by spreading false propaganda and distortions of our history, which is utterly insulting to listen and watch as a descendent of heroes who fought to save probably some of their ancestor's asses during the genocide period as well. It is fact disgusting to even dare to make comparison to Azeris and Turks. You have no integrity and no honor, sir, none, if you think that your little stragetic "explanations" and rationalizations give you the right to insult the entirety of Armeniandom due to their natural distrust of a murderous group of mongrels who are yet again imposing their "preconditions" even under the so-called "preconditions clause."
Therefore, the usage of the word PRECAUTIONS entails two parts:
1) Total due criticism of Turkish historic and nascent barbarity and the contuation of this barbaric attitude toward Armenians and all non-compliant peoples and minorities within their state, the REMOVAL of fascistic laws and the OUTLAWING, DISMANTLING and ELIMINIATION of fascistic organizations such as the Gray Wolves.
2) Total acknowledgement and proper education of Armenian history of the masses in Armenia and the Diaspora, first to our ignorant "governors." beyond what "Lenin Papik" had made allowances for.
3) Top priority given to the proper consolidation and unification of all populations of Armenians as much as possible, regardless of all the so-called "geopolitical obstacles," by first the elimination of internal corruption that essentially scares the hell out of the average diasporan from settling in what is rightfully hiw own homeland.
What do we have instead? Voracious morons, ignorants, foreign worshipping idiots, sellouts, and fools pretending to tell me, me, what actually constitutes an Armenian identity, what actually constitutes as loyalty to Armenia and the Armenian cause, and yet who show no capabilities in matters of state building.
We have, instead of actual violently loud criticism of this TREASONOUS behavior, technicians who are doodling inside the words of the protocols, only lightly and with cherry flavored jello softness "acknowledging that there has been a, oops, slight mistake by the government due to, oops, not consulting the diaspora." Highlighting the so-called "protocol contents" which mean nothing in themeslves, and ignoring the entire "normalization process" and the public brainwashing campaign required to carry forth this "normalization process" smells of agents to me!
Answer the question! Do you, or do you not agree that Armenians need to be brainwashed with a white-washed "history" in order to accept the "normalization of relations?" If, indeed, we are living in "grand times where normalization is going to happen," and indeed if our "diplomatic brokers" will not let there be any further destrcution of our nationhood, then why do they require that our government BRAINWASH their own populations in order to carry on this "so timely and peaceful plan, road map to prosperity." Was "road map" not the original filth of arubric used to begin the insinuations of extortion into "normalizing relations?" What "road map" requires that you BRAINWASH your own populations into forgetting the grievances altogether? And what sort of basis is this for us to "eventually influence Turkish public opinion and policy" with the aid of such "giants" as Akcam and company?
What a load of rubbish! We are far from agreeing on anything, sir. Sorry to bait you.
"Diasporans who have supported Sargsyan, diasporans who have supported Sargsyan..." Do you mean that "Beezneesman Club" we call the TARC and some sprinklings of "famous people" who had no **** idea what is happening except what the publicists and financial advisors say? Oh, don't let me forget what is spoken of in the Lodge, ah, my favorite place of all where "relativists" are bred like colonies of shapeless ameoba (Oh, "old Jove, there is no such things a nationalism, Jove"). Does it not surprise me that the "Knights of Vartan" joined in the brainwash chorus (what an insult to Vartan's name by a bunch of "secret club scouts" with their ridiculous "secret" ritualism and so on)? What idea does Aznavour have on what the "normalization process" entails? I don't know, but his publicist probably has a great idea on how he can get more album sales, royalties, and production credits while tramping around in London and New York: "Hey, maybe even a "Nobel Peace Prize" nomination, Charles, cherie! Think of the possibilities, cherie!"
I don't quite know what sort of truncations of my comments will occurr, but I will refer (hopefully intact) posting about the massive brainwashing campaign of Armenians especially inside Armenia by the government controlled media and the academia. I ask that question here as well: If the "road map to normalization" is such a well-thought and benevolent gesture by the host, Switzerland, and the "'Trioka of brokers," then why indeed is it part of the requirement to brainwash the Armenian populations with an Ashot Bleyan (a.k.a. Vermin-in-Chief) stamped "history" lesson where, and I quote, "We have no real grievances with Turks to speak of"? This sentiment is systematically pushed, wave after wave, and got particularly revolting during Gul's "football diplomacy" visit. I wonder what hula girls and dancing chickens are being aired in Yerevan and aylur while Sargsyan was in Bursa in his latest brownnosing session?
Now god damned protocols, what do they say indeed: "Reconfirming their commitment, in their bilateral and international relations, to respect and ensure respect for the principles equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers,"
Considering the present revoluting state of affairs where our own government is busy brainwashing Armenians into letting their guard down against a known hostile, to me this above reads as such, "Don't mind our business while we continue to brainwash our own Turkish populations to accept the fascistic axiom that it is fine to murder Armenians, but we will mind yours and keep on insisting that you are an aggressor unless you brainwash your own population that Turks and Armenians are equals in the blame of what occurred in 1915, that is was just war, and everything is now fine since we are now playing football and eating bakhlava together."
"Internal state of affairs" means what? The Turkish Republic has a well-developed nation-state "consolidation" mechaniam woerking fulltime, while the ARmenian Republic has a "nation-dissolving" mechanism, happily celebrating things such as "Azerbaijan day" in the Mkhitar Sepastatsi School durn by the aformentioned Vermin-in-Chief Bleyan, while the media shows "how wonderful Antalya is, how hospitable Turkish bartenders and massage parlors are, how Turks saved so many Armenian lives." "Turks save Armenians lives" reminds me of the merchant who marks up his inventory 5000% and then announces a "50% sale, Hurrah!" This is essentially the "normalization deal" we are getting.
With all due respect to the apparent (but not entirely believable) intention of "smoking peace pipes to avoid divisions," it is not enough to merely say that "Indeed, this [the "historic commision" clause - H] is the weakest component of the protocols - vague and allowing ambivalent readings." What should be said is this: Our own government is acting treasonously by brainwashing its own populations into believing that the genocide was a deed of the Ottomans - a regime that is now gine, that Turks of today have nothing to do with it, that there is no animosity among Turks toward Armenians, that all is modern and goody good, that tolerance is on the rise because Pamuk can still write, that we have no real grievances anyhow since it was wartime, that there is no danger form the Turkish border, and so on, while agreeing to "historic commissions" which are specifically designed to exploit this imbalance where the Armenian government is dissolving nationalist resolve while the Turkish government is renewing the lease on fascism on many grounds.
We do not read such things, however. We don't even want to touch on the part where our ignorant KGB apparatchiks pretending to be sovereigns are in fact acting like slaves to the "borkers" by committing sacrilege on every possible sacred ground.
Let's deal with the "protocols" by themselves as well, from now on, after we have understood the sorry and revolting context within which they are being extorted onto Armenians.
While we are on "borders and relations," let's talk about what the condition of Armenians is in Iran, a so-called "friendly" in which the incompetents in Yerevan have not been able to protect the rights of Armenians either. It is fascinating to witness the equally revolting brainwash campaign directed at Armenians from Iran where Shah Abbas, for example, is almost, almost equated with this "wonderfully hospitable fellow who took us all down to Marriott Isfahan for a cup of morning tea, to whit." "Oh, Iran treats Armenians in an excellent manner," but I was recently talking with recent immigrants from Iran. Apparently the rights of Armenians is by code down to nearly Ottoman levels (or Safavid levels, same thing). Are our "governors" able to "participate in the instititution of policy favorable to Armenians" inside what is a non-protocolized "friendly Iran?" Please, gents, let's look at this realistically.
Avetis jan, first let me apologize for the massive amount assumptions on your identity. Now that both of us are in agreement that this part of "dialog" is useless, permit me to comment, partly in agreement, to what you have written. Let me remind you once more that I have the same hopes you do.
Russian imperial history is, and I can tell you this from fanatically extensive reading on the subject, (8 biographies and primary discourses of of Peter I, for example, love the guy) at best rocky with a series of miraculous results. Certainly the Russo-Armenian relations and cordiality, cooperation on equal footing even, go back very far. Vladimir's successes against the Khazars is the first instance where a majorly important breakthrough for Armenian security came from the north under the Rus banner. I personally like the Russians a lot--:)
I take with a grain of salt the statement "Russian imperialism is a flawless swim save for a couple of screwups." Russian imperial "screwups" includes the murder of the core of their original identity, the Kievan principality/kingdom at the hands of Mongols who ruled over the majority of Russian states, save for some isolated pockets, for 3 centuries.
Russia was not merely hybernating, of course, but Russians suffered greatly during this period. Their societal model drastically changed to a decadent feudal one, as, almost like the present day scenario, the landowners who cooperated with the Tatars ended up as the nobility of the remerging Russian empire which first saw its rebirth under Ivan III. It reminds one of the "uber-capitalists" of today, the "Novii Russkii" and oligarchs who, after the Soviet collapse, wrested the formerly public capital and established new "Boyar estates" of today. However, the "oligarchs" of today differ from the old in important ways, but I will not touch that topic here.
This ugly feudal model is also attributed by many historians to the eventual success of communist ideas. I think the ambitions of financial interests commanding Prussian/German, French, British, etc politics had much more to do with the "success" of communism and the ensuing mass murder of Russia, particularly the Russian (and Ukrainian, and Armenian, and Lithuanian, and so on) middle classes, but I will again refrain from offering alternative history at this moment. Russia, in effect, could be viewed as a screw-up miracle.
Now, let's look at their background in brief:
1. Kievan Rus, very aggressive but noble characters who knocked out an ugly Khazar pirate empire out of existence, much to the relief of Armenians I tell you. Movses Kaghankatvatsi, the Armenian historian who chronicled this period, is very unambiguous about this.
2. The Kievan Rus are murdered, Kiev is completely massacred. Mongols rule for 300 years.
3. During this "yoke" a strange class of "nobility" arise from the ashes, mostly composed of those who were able to cooperate with, and eventually bribe away power from the Mongols. This phenomenon is exemplified by Ivan "the Moneybag" III, the first important Moscovite who founded the long-standing Romanov line, which, in its corrupted state eventually fell and was murdered in cold blood at the hands of Bolsheviks.
4. Peter I comes into the picture and modernizes Russia and builds the new imperial foundations of Russia, which are still in effect today. There is no doubt he is the greatest Russian. His fanatical and obsessive zeal to go to Holland to learn how to build ships with his own hands in order to carry out his solemn oath of building a Russian navy (which, when he took the oath to himself, Russia was landlocked - which should make us Armenians think on these lines as well), this is still an inspirational model for me personally! --:)
5. I’ll skip many details and point out that the Russian court becomes a Francophone institution, considering Russian a “commoners tongue but still the mother tongue” in a quasi-schizoid and implicit manner. There came the first signs of serious disengagement with the populations, which had already taken root during Peter’s reign (seemingly trivial items such as the “beard tax” and so on, offensive to the pious “muzhik”). A lot of things occurred, but the most important was this in my opinion where the emulation of Europeanism, copycatting French standards, caused for problems in domestic relations. A Versaillesque model was adopted of centralization of power far too much into the Tzar’s hands at the expense of especially the Boyar landowning gentry in general. Just as Colbert was ignored in France in the 18th century for warning Louis XIV against this, so was later Stolypin ignored in Russia in the early 20th, and these divisions and decadent intrigues eventually dominated Russian domestic politics, yielding to pathological conditions such as associations with Rasputin and so on, not to mention the famous hemophilia inheritance which weakened an already weak monarchy. The “rotting door” so to speak, was coming down.
6. Then came the Bolsheviks. The door came down, with a lot of “western” (let’s just be satisfied with that term in today’s politicized context) financing behind the hacks such as Lenin. A wholesale murder of Russia’s middle class ensued. Think about what the consequences were of this.
7. Then came the "break-up of the evil empire" blah blah during Reaganomics, the disastrous era for Americans as well although without their knowledge, which is doubly fascinating to watch "Reagan fans" today. Boris "the Drunk" I sits in the new throne, having lost all holdings outside the Federation due to the "break-up." Putin (Rasputin, Putin, similarities end there in those five letters I guess), comes in and sells a bunch of oil and gas, pays off all debts to the loan sharks at IMF, jails and exiles (with large "severence packages") a bunch of "oligarchs," secures alliances with more oligarchs more loyal to their own economy, perhaps finally following Stolypin's advice after 90 years, and revives a good chunk of Russia's ailing economy. Army morale goes up, and "Chechens" are knocked out.
Yet, one thing he has not done is achieve what Tzar Alexander II had done during his reign: "Kill (at least incapacitate and exile) the bankers" and reject devaluation of old and new of his currency and economic assets. But the looming "death of the Dollar reign" in cooperation with China makes one think very hard on what you have written about Russia's rememergence. On that note, I will address the rebuilding of the empire and economic model in another post.
Armenians, however, have always been servants, but not equal contributors for their own sake, in this framework of Russian imperialism, and this is what I am proposing we change.
An excellent article! thanks a lot.
Hagop jan,
You can continue to rant. That won't change anything. As I told you, you are the walking diagnosis of why including some people in the decision-making process is impossible. I can see you shouting out there "Answer that! How dare you!" and other unnecessary theatrics . You can talk in that tone in your akumb. I did not even read your last piece. Sorry. I read the article on Kars surrender. You clearly did not understand it. Bye.
What idea does Aznavour have on what the “normalization process” entails?
Clearly, Hagop jan, Armenia's Ambassador to Switzerland, the mediating country, knows much more about it than me and even you, the true, the real and the only Armenian patriot. The floor is all yours, continue ranting and venting. I know in your circles people like words like "geopolitical... strategic ... multi-dimensional ... " These words act like triggers - this is a very smart guy. But David did NOT write a "geopolitical analysis" so it could not be incomplete, it is analysis of policy, something that you are not capable of. Even if it were incomplete, he tried and what came out is far better intellectually than your endless venomous words.
Bleyan does not work for the Armenian government. He did together with Aivazian for LTP's government. Bleyan was turned into an "untouchable", made one of the indicators of Armenia's success in transitioning to democracy by US and EU. There are no easy solutions here for the government - any action they talk invites harsh criticism in Bolshevist methods, repressing freedom of speech, persecuting dissent... Before anyone jumps into solutions, causes need to be analyzed (why is there a competition to get kids in that school?), but Nalbandyans are not about problem solving, since that may require action. They are about talking and blaming left and right, without thinking.
Please don't insult our intelligence with your nonsense. Yes, I agree with some of your points, however, don't state that Armenia will begin to use Turkish currency in an attempt to bolster the emotions of your readers! You and I both know this will never happen.
Most of the predictions in Mensoian's article are true and are based on common facts. But there are some assumptions that need verification and may be incorrect. Please don't get me wrong, the real scenario is even worse than what Mensoian is imagining. For example, why every article about economic benefit assumes that the prices of goods from Turkey are cheaper? It may be that some products are cheaper because of the transport expenses, but I need a detailed listing to believe such claims. I believe even that aspect is wishful thinking brainwashed by the current Armenian media.
Cutting your finger and filling your stomach to avoid starvation will not make you survive in the long run.
Let's think, then. Let's assume that we, as Armenian collective, cannot also apply similar pressures and make, for example, the "untouchables," quite touchable. So tell me, how is Bleryan an "untouchable" when he is clearly a mongrel working for external interests?
Thanks, Hasmig
(note to monitors: I seem to recall posting a reply to "Gagik" on another forum, but I can't find it. Was this deleted or is it just my memory that can't recall where this was?)
Aivazian was an advisor who worked for a brief period and left the government, as did many. There are those here in Los Angeles who were in the government and left on principle. You keep on repeating this primitive association game with Aivazian, when he is the only one systematically countering the brainwashing campaign. If you bother to check their publications on the website, you'll see proposed solutions, long term solutions, not band-aid solutions when it's already 100 feet from impact.
The details of who finances these media outlets, "NGOs" and so on who work for public brainwashing campaign are partly available, and I only see them to be "untouchable" due to the government's incompetence and its lack of competent personnel. They have managed to chase away most competent specialists who, as I mentioned before, are either grinding away here or have passed away.
The "policy" genius you are, let's have you apply the same optimism on "influencing Turkish policy in the future because of normalization" to Iran, an already "normalized" and "non-protocolized" neighbor supposedly on good terms. The only good outcome from the Iranian relationship I can think of is that at least the Iranian government wasn't barbaric enough to destroy Armenian history and does work to preserve historical remnants. Considering the fact that Turks have managed to destroy the lion's share of everything Armenian already and are still in the process of maiming what's left, (consult www.raa.am and Samvel Karapetyan personally on this, since you are "everywhere"), it is a bit late to hope for "archeological leniency" as policy. We are talking now about human rights, and Iran has managed to reduce rights of non-Muslims to nearly nothing. Turkey does not officially recognize that it has minorities, and let's see if you and other "policy makers" can influence the repeal of article 301. Of course, we know the answer to that.
You also must have a background in law. Lawyers use this petty tactic. David's "policy analysis" consisted of backing by an incomplete geopolitical analysis, and therefore his "policy analysis" was doomed to be incomplete and incorrect.
"The Swiss ambassador knows best." Of course they know. Who said we know better? They know what they want, and that is why they are pushing for "normalization" in such an imbalanced manner against Armenians. Are you to tell me that Switzerland and all its banker controllers are suddenly "human rights and Armenian friendly" because their parliament recognized the genocide? Did their recognition reduce their trade and banking relations with Turks? Is Switzerland an "autonomous country with no strings attached to NATO and the rest of the controllers.?" Your not making good arguments, but you are insisting on the "benefits." I suspect you know something from the Russian end your not mentioning, as always, and that arrogance comes from Russophiles. The little "hints" form Russian officials, who knows what they mean, but clearly no one is working on consolidating Armenian power. No one see the possibility or need among the "policy makers."
Also, Bleyan might not work for the government, but his stamped version of history is what has made it to the government controlled media which we also watch here in Los Angeles as daily dose of cyanide.
Lav hodvats er (not). Turkere vor kardan ais hastat khastaten protokole. Ete uzum es haieri hamar grel gone hairen gri, vor urishnere chkardan.
Ete uzum es gtnel protokoli iskakan heghinaknerin, apa mtatsi te um e ain dzernatu. Es katsum em vor Sarkisyanin stipel en ais kailin gnal. Ete protokole hastatvi Nabucco i gaze Rusastanov kgna Turkiai pokharen. Dra masin Azrbaijane arden mi kani angam haitararel e. Dra hamar Turkian chi hastati ain.
It never occurs to your sort that you evasive tactics are what invite reactions such as that above. As much as you try to resist that reality, you're part of the problem, the same problem which is the government's evasiveness. You have cowered under the "policy" banner, playing useless games in semantics, "not analogy, metaphor," etc., hoping to wear and tear. That is precisely the tactics taught to these apparatchiks ruining my country, MY country, in which I have spiritual, emotional, financial and social interests.
Tell me about the Kars article and what you have understood. Every page in that article talks about the exclusion of entire sectors of Armenians in favor of "professionally trained Russian officers," which ended with an administration and military command that didn't care and did not believe in an independent and self-reliant Armenia. This same pattern is being repeated with improvement in the military thanks to, by the way, partly the laborings of those you disapprove of based on nothing but petty associations.
I have read with interest most of the comments here. Some I have found informative, others downright ‘irrational’. I did enjoy Mr. Davidian’s lucid article. However one thing no one has touched upon is an analysis of where the Turkish Republic came from, where it is today and where it is going in relation to the Protocols.
I think to fully analyze and make a proper judgement of the Protocols, you have to know and understand your “adversary”. The Turks understand very well the differences between Armenia and the Diaspora. Unfortunately Diasporan Armenians do not attempt to try to understand today’s Turkey.
The external pressures on Turkey have been well explained by Mr. Davidian. This post is not to defend Turkey in any way but to bring to light how internal changes in Turkey are another reason why it is sitting at the table with Armenia.
Contrary to what most Armenians in the Diaspora think, Turkey is not a monolithic, one-dimensional country filled with cunning, barbaric, lying “Envers” and “Talaats’. Turkey is the 17th largest economy in the world and is going through profound changes. It’s not the backward country that some of you would like to think. To continue to think this way about Turkey blinds us to these changes and inhibits us from seizing the moment to advance our cause.
There have been profound changes in the Turkish Republic in the last 10 years culminating in the election of Erdogan and Gul’s AKP party in 2003.
The AKP is the the anti-thesis of the secular Kemalists who had governed Turkey since the formation of the Republic in 1923. On first thought one might think a secular party would be easier to deal with for Armenia than of the Islamist leaning AKP. Your conclusion would be wrong. The Secular/Nationalist elites who governed Turkey untill 2003 had originally morphed from Talaat’s and Enver’s old Committee of Union and Progress in Turkey. This group were the perpetrators of the Genocide and their heirs are responsible for the continuation of its denial.
After the formation of the Turkish Republic in 1923, to pull the country together, quell any rebellion and keep the country intact they created three myths on which the foundations of the Turkish Republic were formed. (With thanks to Taner Akcam)
1) Turks are a race of people
2) There are no Kurds in Turkey
3) The Armenian Genocide never happened.
The first two myths have already been discredited. Turks now realize that Turkey is not comprised of one pure Turkic race but comprised of many different people including, Alevi, Circassian, Levantine, Armenians, Albanians etc. There is now an acceptance of this diversity.
The second myth has also been destroyed as Turks have realized there are almost 25 million Kurds who live in Turkey.
The last myth, the denial of the Armenian Genocide has been under attack for the last 10 years. My friends in Turkey tell me there are plenty of books available about the Genocide in bookstrores there. It is almost as though every day I hear someone in Turkey discover his or her real background. On a personal note I had the pleasure of proving to a friend of mine in Canada that he was not a Pontious Greek as he had thought but in fact a Hemsheen Armenian or lost Armenian. I’ll never forget how he cried that day after this revelation.
You see, most Turks are unaware of the of the sordid episodes of their history. Now that they are hearing about the Genocide, they are being told that these are lies propagated by countries who want to weaken Turkey. Imagine telling a Turk that their forebearers were murderers and bandits and that they perpetrated one of the biggest crimes against humanity. I think you would agree that a majortity of Turks would “circle the wagon” and resist. But the genie is out of the bag and the Turksh government has realized they will have to confront history. And better to confront it on a stage that they can somewhat control the conclusion.
Now that “Discussions about the Historical problems” between the countries will begin what would logically follow is that Article 301 of the Turkish Penal code will be abolished. This has always been a bone of contention for the Europeans. After all, how can you accuse anyone who speaks about the Genocide in Turkey they are “insulting Turkishness” when their government is discussing the same issue.
There has always been bad blood between the Islamists and the Secular/Nationalist elements in Turkey. I need not remind you of the Kemalist attrocities against Turkish religious leaders. The Islamists consider Attatürk, an apostate, a dönme (from a jewish family that converted to Islam) who pushed Turkey to the undesirable secular state it is today.
However, even with a healthy majority, the AKP must tread carefully and slowly. The Nationalist elements, though weakened, by the Ergenekon Affair, the revelation of the existance of a “deep state” within Turkey formed by the CIA and comprised of Nationalist, Government and Business Elites for the purpose of eliminating any Communist or Islamist threat to Turkey including the denial of the Armenian Genocide. This is the group that murdered Hrant Dink and also attempts to bring down the present Turkish Government through legal and illegal methods.
Look at the other changes happening to Turkey recently. The turn towards the east, first with alliances with Syria, Iran, fence-mending with Armenia, and interestingly turning its back on its traditional ally and co-conspirator of genocide denial—Israel.
In conclusion, Turkey is not a monolithic entity as some would believe. Turkey has diverse opinions regarding relations with Armenia. I think the Protocols are a smart step for the Armenia government to encourage rational thinkers in Turkey in regards to Armenia and to take advantage of the internal changes Turkey is going through to resolve its problems.
I commend the Armenian leadership for seizing the moment and taking this courageous step.
Hagop jan, you wrote -
"Armenians, however, have always been servants, but not equal contributors for their own sake, in this framework of Russian imperialism, and this is what I am proposing we change."
A tiny, impoverished nation, a dependent nation, landlocked, blockaded with no natural wealth, no economy and surrounded by enemies in perhaps the worst geopolitical environment in the world... Please tell me, how can it be an equal relationship? Armenia/Armenians are as big as our imaginations. We need to truly understand who we are, where we are and what we can do - and learn to work with what we got until the day we are strong enough to be truly independent. This realization is the key to our national success.
Our relationship with Russia has given us, is giving us, an opportunity to stand on our feet. This is not the time to rock the boat so to speak. Let's make the most of what our relationship with the second most powerful nation on earth (perhaps soon to be 'the' most powerful) can provide us. We need to be in Moscow what Jews are in Washington DC. Instead of the Armenian diaspora bitching and complaining about Russia, instead of the diaspora wasting time, effort and money in pursuit of "genocide recognition" in the West, it should instead be investing all its pan-national efforts in forming an intimate relationship with the Kremlin. This is key to our success as a nation in the region. However, how many Armenians understands/realizes this fundamental/crucial political concept?
Armenians may be very capable when it comes to business or academia but we are total idiots when it come to political foresight. This is one of the reasons why we are seeing so much hysteria and paranoia regarding the political process taking place between Armenia and Turkey.
I am deeply impressed with your profound knowledge of Russian history as well as your knowledge of regional geopolitics . However, whether you realize it or not, your convictions/thoughts concerning modern Russia are somewhat tainted/altered by the consistent anti-Russian propaganda you are exposed to by the corporate controlled news media in the US. You may not realize it but the political conditioning of the West does effect people like you subconsiously. Nonetheless, seldom I run into diasporans as well read as you (assuming that you are a disporan). Although we differ in approach its been an absolute pleasure conversing with you.
As an example of what I mean by "good ideas transcending" -- take the battles between the ANCA and the AAA over the Protocols. Clearly, 99.9% of our community is against the Protocols, but the AAA -- on the wrong side of the issue -- will continue to recieve both financial and political support from many Armenians. You didn't see a massive walk out you would expect from an organization getting it wrong on such a core issue from such a united community. Why? Because we don't support ideas or decisions -- we support our "camp."
It is a shame the moderators have chosen to block my posts here numerous times, so this is my last attempt.
Semerciyan explains elequently how real facts and figures,and a close scrutiny of the relevant history can risk the myths constructed painstakingly over decades.
She is right.
Dear Arto,
Indeed, it's crucial to understand the adversary, and not in quotes. They are the adversary. The controlling parties are hostiles to the Armenian cause, and that has not changed even 1%. You're not reading into the entire spectrum of forces at play within the hostile state.
"There have been profound changes in the Turkish Republic in the last 10 years culminating in the election of Erdogan and Gul’s AKP party in 2003."
Correction: There have been nominal changes in so-called secular to a more (again nominal and unrealized) pluralistic "Islamic" nomenclature, but the reality is that this 'Islamic model" seems to have coopted the expansionist ideology and has adopted a newly coined (and so far enthusiastically received by unexpected circles) "neo-ottomanist" rhetoric. It is the same animal in different clothes. This new animal is designed to take advantage of the rising Islamic union. The OIC which now has increasingly industrialized Malaysia, Iran, the various Emirates, and so on in their membership are becoming a formidable block with remarkable allowances for whatever reason, and a competing Islamic economic block in the east is now becoming a reality.
It looks as though Turks, experienced imperialists with their traditional 'advisorship", are simply attempting to play both the EU potential and the stronger OIC, or perhaps a specific subset of the OIC. Currently there is a dynamic cross-investment in the billions in high tech industry, automotive industry (which, in this case, is actually led by Iran), and Turkey is bound to become a senior partner, a situation where the EU's absolute necessity might not be the case for Turkish economic development.
"The AKP is the the anti-thesis of the secular Kemalists who had governed Turkey since the formation of the Republic in 1923. On first thought one might think a secular party would be easier to deal with for Armenia than of the Islamist leaning AKP. Your conclusion would be wrong."
Your conclusions would be wrong, yes. The so-called "secular party" was still a party that utilized Islam as a pre-existing component to ease in the concoction of a monolithic identity and by extension a monolithic society (at least the attempt at the popular level, which doesn't matter as much as we think). (Thus the repeated phrase in various ways - "What makes a Turk who he is? His blood, Islam, and his glorious past.")
Initially the adopted degree of banning of Islamic custom (Tanri Uludur! screamed by the Muezzin instead of "Allah U Akbar", etc) was considered extreme and ran the risk of alienating larger sections of the populations than previously thought. Adjustments were made under various administrations to re-instate Islamic customs as required. After all, you can't offend everyone at that early stage. That can come later, if needed.
The Military hierarchical structure and its quasi-immune status from civilian administration ensured, and still ensures, the continuation of the secularist, Kemalist platform above and beyond the parliamentary fluctuations. As a result, even so-called "Islamists" have to pay lip service to this platform. The cooperation between the AKP and the Military in the ergenekon "rebellion" was a test, not of the Military, but of the AKP. The tug-of-war is over, but nothing has changed. As the matter of fact, the AKP has become more aggressive in their pan-Turkist rhetoric than ever.
Now to the mythological, literary, and emotional argument:
You say that the 3 pillars of Turkish Republican mythology will come down. These pillars can come down all they want, but the foreign policy and expansionist policy can still be dictated well below popular radar and in utter defiance of popular opinion; Don't go far. Simply look at the USA. For most, that should be enough of an argument, but I'll continue. Remember in the US example and the warnings of the gold-playing President Eisenhauer. He's still correct. The Military Industrial Complex (which is, actually, the banking, corporate uber-structure), dictates policy, and not some fool in Capitol Hill or White House. For those who still believe otherwise, well Disneyland is selling tickets at $58 a pop.
You say there are more books about the Armenian genocide. Oh, I am well aware. There is an "identity crisis in Turkey" said Dink not long before he was murdered. "Ինքնութեան խնդիր կայ և մենք վիզիոն, վիզիոն պիտի ունենանք." His "vizion" spilled blood on the curb that will eventually wash away in the tide of "plularistic fascism."
I'll explain by "pluralistic fascism" what I mean. Krikor Zohrab and Hrant Dink, they are such twin brothers. Are they not? Zohrab, a brilliant man, excellent writer, competent lawyer, eudite, learned, man of the letter as much as any man can get, perhaps one of our best, finally had his head crushed by a Kurd sent by his best "pluralistic buddy" Tala'at. During that entire period until only shortly before his death, Zohrab truly believed in the "progressiveness of his secular Constitutionalist brothers" (this is a quote). Zohrab's party, the ARF was carrying banners "Vote for Ittihad" during elections in 1906, I if memory serves.
To be continued.
Gayane--
"it SHOULD show that even though we may have less power (which in reality, we in Diaspora should have as much if not greater power than the Armenian citizen in Armenia) we can impose great deal of pressure"
Why in the hell do you think you should have more of a say in Armenian politics than the people of Armenia do? That seems a little..absurd. Should Armenians in Armenia have a say in how much taxes you pay, where your tax money goes, when to hold a draft, when to send your kids to war? I think not. The Diaspora needs to get over itself, quick!
I read the last portion of your post and saw that you write what is most commonly written on this topic and what I hear for the most part from Turks and Armenians from Turkey on the situation in Turkey.
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Considering the climate and level of "thinking" we're at on such forums these days, I'll skip Kemal's reasons for the (atrocious is an understatement) barbaric and bestial treatment of religious leaders from 1923. Let's just say that he had his reasons, reasons which still run the show.
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Your friend's reaction to the revelation of his identity is touching, but the reverse reaction has been more commonplace. I happen to think it beautiful the possibility to have the chance to reengage with especially the Hamsheni, a beautiful bunch if there ever was, particularly their music, Armenian music that has survived and transcended the Bolshevization, the "Party" corrosions, and so on! You gotta love those people! Yet, are they willing to be named Armenians? I've seen first hand mixed reactions at both extremes. It is definitely possible with these people especially to integrate peacefully Armenian and overall Turkish society, in which the Hamsheni are apparently increasingly popular, particularly in music and dance, performing folk arts.
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Yet, there are contingencies against such acceptance of the Armenian identity, and I don't know if the awareness of this issue will be allowed to progress to the point where their mythology will be completely invalidated. The fanatics are attempting to "study the language and determine its Turkic, Chagatay Turkic, to be exact, origins," at the university level.
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This is actually the opinion of many Turks with whom I've discussed this, and they are in agreement that their government is still to be controlled by expansionist ideologues for a long time to come due to the interests in support of this ideology have in mind in Eurasia. Those Turks who are disgusted by their government's long fascistic, murderous, and denialist history, though - I do agree - greater in number than we do realize, admit grudgingly that they have no control over this locomotive through any existing civil processes.
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The article 301 cannot be lifted if the forces at work -internal and external - whom I suspect will continue to exist and exert the most influence. Also, the numerous imperialist and fascistic outbursts by AKP leaders of late simply makes such an egg-on-the-face possibility out of the question. The trend seems to be internal rejection of the EU in favor of other options already mentions, and this might even put the EU at the flip side of the bargaining table. They know this too. Now, this possibility that internal social upheavals can cuase for the rendering of article 303 totally redundant, I can foresee were it the case that I did not believe in the civilian and democratic processes and their actual limits of power in key political ideas and their momentum. I speak of pan-Turkism that has simply too high a saturation point.
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Dink was murdered by an obvious fascist indoctrinated with the standard pan-Turkist "mythology." Dink's trial process was a mockery of justice, and the murderer was displayed in a subdued but recognizable heroic aura.
The Ergenekon was not a failure, in my opinion. It was a test, a test to see the popularity of the AKP within the law enforcement, intelligence, and military.
What, indeed, happened to the Ergenekon participants? Were they tried and hung as traitors in a military court martial? Please, let's answer that question before we judge the actual intentions, interests, and effects of all this "wonderful relaxation going on."
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Turkish economy, something no one wants to deal with: Just what the heck is this "industrialization and prosperity" about? The fact is that it is still less than 1% of the population in control of the nation's wealthy, which is the most constant phenomenon in Turkish reality other than the largest corporation itself, the Military, which is what Military is, a mega corporation that spends, not earns (so to speak, in Turkey's case, it extorts and is rewarded), and has many guns and the license to use it. Two family names come up when it concerns domestic wealth: Koc and Sabanci, and their satellites. They aso donate generously to the Military, and while some take this Military dominance with humor, the leading moneybags do not. The rest is foreign investment, again in cooperation with Koc, Sabanci, and their various satellites. At the popular level, there is a better standard of living and per capita income than Bulgaria, but lower than Greece, which is not saying much at all. It is still a centrally controlled oligarchy and military who are apparently working on creating their own independent imperial power base in the east-west gamble. That's what I see anyhow.
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In the end, I hope all the optimists are correct about Russia, Turkey, and the "light at the end of the tunnel." Turks that I have met have been personable individuals with whom we have had good business and casual relationships, but then again, I have met the fascistic sort who, no matter what you throw at him, it boomerangs back with venom, blood and spit. I certianly hope the former take the helm and calm the beast in the latter one day, for the good of the region and mankind, but I certainly don't see any such possibility in the near future.
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However, Armenian optimists in this region have joined Krikor Zohrab.
Dr. Astarjian's this article shows the real face and ambitions of Armenian Diaspora, which fuels the poor Armenians that suffer in Armenia. There is one saying "How full can understand the hungry person". You sit in some (I don't know in which) foreign country, overpaid by Diaspora money, and talk about illusions, hysteria which are products of your hatred to Turks.
In this globalizing world - 21st Century, these illusions are not acceptable. Soon, you will see South Caucasus region flourishing, prospering in peace, with close economic ties of three real independent countries: Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia, having good relations with Russia, Turkey and Iran.
Chauvinism won't bring any good to any nation in the world.
Avetis ջան,
On the effects of western propaganda, I don't deny it. I am in the process of learning Russian (which is not as easy for me--:)) to bypass this trash media, the Weapon of Mass Deception here. I also tend to follow more foreign media than the US "media," which is like a default mouthpiece for the Banking Cartel (which is the ultimate contoller of the "corporatocracy" so often mentioned these days) and its minions on the Capitol Hill and White House, not to mention the Judiciary with that "Sodomgomor" recently appointed.
I don't even attempt to make the point that we can be equals in anything at this point (well, we are showing - at least for now - to better at chess---:).
I think that we need to shift our psychology from accepting this "slave status" which we have come too accustomed to, and, in order to achieve what you propose, we need to think as masters of our own destiny.
We are overreliant, OVERreliant on others, to the point where we don't even consider the proper "protocolization" of our internal divisions and problems. Is there a "protocol" between the Republican and ANC block? Not at all. Such stupid and debilitating divisions are still defining our political identity. Are we pushing for an administration that is capable of organizing worldwide Armeniandom? Give me a break. We will need 100 "protocols" for that one. Well? Where are those "protocols" to resolve intranational divisions, grievances, and disputes?
- Imagine a typical conversation of slaves.
- "Ah, we don't need that crap! We got Russia
- "No, you moron, we got the USA and the EU."
- "Diasporans don't care about Armenia. Erdogan just said so, and so did LTP (a.k.a. "King Levon") in 1991." We need Russia.
- " No, you both are idiots. I am an expert. I say we need the protocols, the EU, Russia, and US, who will blow us up if we don't pass the oil."
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Will anyone discuss the "Procotols" between, say, the "People" and "Oligarchs?"
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As to our potential alliances, to whom we will mean nothing since we are not investing in ourselves worth a damn, Moscow or Washington, hard to tell where the balance will shift to, but it is clear that a Eurasian Russo-Chinese (and possibly even joined by India and hopefully Iran) alliance can be beneficial to Armenians, and, if what you say is correct, then it is likely the power centers we need will be Moscow and Beijing, in that order.
The Chinese have already shown to have a favorable outlook toward relations with Armenia, and that is a huge potential powerhouse as well. India is still far too much entangled in its British colonial past and existing patrilineal ties to "Her Majesties clubs." Iran's islamism is a major handicap, but again the Shah's "Americanism" was also a handicap in its own way.
Dear Arto,
I think this line of thinking - Turkey has changed, Turks are not the sme as 100 years ago as well as its twin extreme brother - Turks are the same savages our forefathers were facing equally misleading when it comes to policy-making, in this case negotiation. We cannot control where Turkey will be going, we can influence that choice in rather limited ways. We can only negotiate out of our national interests and a clear understanding where we are going and where we want to be. Do not get me wrong - I am not saying that we should not study developments in Turkey, on the contrary nothing can be more important than strong Turkology in Armenia.Know thy enemy. However, if you negotiate on the premise that we know where Turkey is going because Fridman said spilled the beans, we will end up reacting to choices made by Turkey. We need to have pro-active rather than reactive stance.
Hagop jan,
1.The weak always justifies his\her behavior as a reaction to somebody else's behavior. You too reflexive when we need to be more reflective.
2. Your pseudo-historical analogy is both inaccurate and offensive to hundreds of Armenian senior officers who came and served Armenia when motherland most needed them and their skills. Your Rusophobia is blinding you. It was not Iranian, American, French but Soviet (Russian) trained officer corps that helped build the Armenian army.It was Norat Ter Gregorian who fainted several times because of under-nourishment, did not ask for any perks or luxury, he came and served Armenia. It was officers like Commandos who planned and executed now text book operations in Artsakh. I can continue the list, but is it necessary? And yes there is a difference between analogy and metaphor, between pseudo-patriotic beating in the chest and policy analysis, that is something Armenia needs badly.
Finally, you may have missed this with Ken Hachikyan - the protocols and TARC have been pushed not by Russia but by the United States, the country where presumably we have the strongest influence on policy. In fact, we don't because to influence something, one first needs to make sense of it. Instead of engaging US based on a thorough understanding of American national interests, I would not go as far as shaping those interests, we put out demands.I am really curious if Madame Secretary even responded to Ken Hachikyan's angry letter. But even if she did, US policy-makers will not trade their national interests for our demands, no matter how just they may be.This may sound cruel but this is the reality. I told you already you can vent, but sometimes ask yourself what are trying to achieve here?
Adieux from Paris
Who is this "John" again? "This was war?" Indeed, if one chooses to look at it from that angle, which fortunately for John I and most Armenians certainly do not, then there is a problem.
You are essentially reselling the Turkish version of the "Mein Kampf," the justification for killing Armenians on "grounds of treachery." First, it is ridiculous to assume that "Armenian lived in luxury" because there were musicians and "pashas" in Court at Constantinople. The utter ignorance of that remark prompts me to first of all remind all of these "Armenians" who are being overly polite the fact that the vast majority of Armenians were subjected to utter cruelty and barbarism which is indescribable from day one the "oh, so kind Ottoman Empire" took over. The vast majority of Armenians were peasants and townsfolk constantly subjected to subhuman conditions and inhuman barbarity. If one only mentions the crippling tax system imposed on these poor ancestors of ours, one will see a picture that John Mein Kampf above seems to avoid. One need only to consult 3 chroniclers, but my favorite is Arakel Davrizhetsi and his painfully detailed description of the horrors that Armenians had to endure on a daily basis on "Paradiso Ottomaniaca."
Long story short, Armenians were not "ottomans" but conquered subjects by an aggressive occupier on their own land, cruelly treated, in murderously cruel fashion, and debased to such inhuman level that, with all due respect, Jews did simply did not endure even during the Nazi era. I have read the entire gamut from Elie Wiesel to Primo Levy, and the worst I could find was not even close! Quite frankly, Armenian captives from the Soviet Army in Germany prisons were more cruelly treated and died in droves due to such mistreatment.
If you choose to employ the Turko-fascistic Mein Kampf, then, Hitler's Mein Kampf says it was war as well. After all, don't we know from reading Hitler the "Jews were to blame for all societal ills, the bad economy" and so on, the standard Hitlerian trash? "The Jews were traitors who were waging war on the purity of the Aryan race and causing the impoverishment of Germany," so it was war! Do you blame the Nazis? How can you, based on your standards, blame the Nazis? Of course they "had to kill and massacre. They were war, attacked by the Jews."
Shall we stop there?
I don't think this "John" is a Jew. Turks have this habit of using the Jewish front for their petty propaganda efforts.
The dire situation that has dawned upon all of us causes various reactions in this discussion: mobilized intellectual effort, rush to help with whatever words we can put together, clairvoyancy, chest-beating, "naive" questioning, patting on the back, taking skeletons out of personal closets, outright abuse - to mention a few without being exhaustive. Judging from recent encouraging signs (change of tone, improved communications etc.), I would like to think that all this is well-meant and although we are not looking in one direction (would have been big fun if not for the current tragic times) perhaps the unifying question is "now what". It is out of question that things from now on can be left in their current appauling state.
I would like to remind those that are reading this further a conveniently forgotten paper from 2001:
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/10013/1/Diaspora_Arm_Website.pdf
Does anybody know of any sequel in the following 8 years? Perhaps we badly need to discuss something of this kind. HagopN?
It has also been floated by Gagik Harutyunyan that according to Jewish researchers the GDP of Armenia + Diaspora (how can the latter be cacluated?) are together equal to the GDP of Turkey. Is that so?
Arto,
Your position is well represented in the RA media and even taken to extremes (Novoe Vremya 13 October, Armen Drabinyan, "The Armenian Trunk"). I do not associate you with such open turkophilia and you have gone to the effort to put forward some aspects in a more palatable way, your articulate finale notwithstanding. You are factually right in many of your starting points, but I am surprised at your explicit and implicit conclusions. Helping our (now) neighbouring nation into a wishfully thought catharsis is one thing, taking on our shoulders the whole burden of decades of their state-organized brainwashing and outright lies is another, and for that matter totally inconsiderate and irresponsible. It may be a very Christian step to take, but even the World's first Christian nation cannot afford it, if it is to survive.
Or you think that once we made the ultimate scarfice, anything that we are asked to do now pales in comparison - our hearts hurt enough, so is it much to ask for to also grit out teeth? For whose benefit?
Dear John,
Please look at the map (Google will do) and answer yourself the question what is the distance (in km) between the Russo-Turkish frontline in 1915 and places like Sivas and Sebinkarahisar (I am writing the Turkish names so that you can identify easier). If you do not know the extent of extermination of the entire Armenian population there I can offer you some help too. Then please answer yourself the second question: is this "removal from the frontline"? For the third question, please look again at the map: do you think that Der el Zor is towards the rear of the "frontline" or just in the opposite direction? It is very indicative that hollow arguments related to "acts or war" do not hold water when scrutinised - this was not taken seriously by TARC, with 4 Turks sitting on it, when announcing that what happened was indeed Genocide (with the retrospectivity caveat, but that is a separate issue).
To your anticipated argument involving the "Armenian uprising", the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto rightfully does not challenge the veracity of the Genocide of the Jews (and this has nothing to do with whether I believe you that you are Jewish or not).
Հավատա թէ ոչ լիովին՛ համաձայն եմ քո հետ Հակոբ ջան. շատ ճանապարհ ունենք գնալու մինչև հասնենք համ-ազգայնության: Նրա համար միշտ ասում եմ որ մեր ինչ լինելը պետք է լաւ ճանաչենք... Համենայնդեբս հետաքրքրական անձնավորություն դուրս եկար. խնդրում եմ միքանի խոսքերով ասա ո՞վ ես ի՞նչ ես...
"Servet Cretin found the ball on his left foot. With Armenian defenders all over the ball, Cretin got away for..."
:D
It should be Servet Çetin...
Thanks for the correction!
Greg, strange that you are asking the question "what now?" now. To even remotely approach that problem one needs to answer the question "how it came to be this way?" That was the gist of Davidian's article and instead of discussing policy we are dragged here into constant gloom and doom from the self-styled experts on everything but that very question at hand. What are you proposing to do assuming your or your friends analysis of Turkey is correct, assuming you referenced calculation of the aggregate GDP is correct? If I were to continue Nalbandyan's logic, it is about change of power, i.e. revolutionary means. In my book that will bring about disaster.
Greg,
Turkey does not have a monopoly on subjective history. Just look at the great democracies we both live in that have engaged in state-organized brainwashing and outright lies.
What happened to the Aboriginal culture in both countries? History has only been rectified in the last 20 years. How about the treatment of Japanese-Americans and Japanese Canadians in WWII?. All their property was confiscated and they were forced to live in concentration camps. Only is past 10 years has the truth been exposed and an apology and financial compensation given.
How about the treatment of blacks in America until the late 60s civil rights movement?
Where I live in BC, the province mistreated Chines migrant workers who help build the railroad in the early 1900’s. A “Head tax” was put on each of them. They weren’t considered human beings but chattle.
The Spanish wiped out the Aztec and the Inca civilizations.
The Japanese to this day still rewrite their history because they can’t accept the reality of their brutal treatment of Koreans during WWII.
So rationally why are we holding Turks to another standard? All empires had brutal episodes in their history and history was rewritten to hide their guilt.
There is no doubt Turkey is trying to come to grips with its past. 15 years ago if a Prime Minister of Turkey had suggested to Armenia to form a “historical commission”, he would have been killed or removed from office.
Thank goodness the Government of the RA understands these changes in Turkey and is trying to seize the moment. This is why no Diasporan Armenian should ever negotiate with the Turks. We need level and unemotional thinking. We can’t negotiate with a country that we prejudge as lying, cunning, brutal Envers and Talaats.
Arthur jan,
1. I'll try to be less reflexive, and you do try to be a stronger and face criticism and disagreement more gracefully and humbly. You will quickly notice that my counter-reaction will be in kind. If I'm being a total idiot , then do try to explain.
2. "Pseudo-this, pseudo-that."
In 1920 there was rampant Russophilia, (I don't merely refer to non-mastery of the Armenian language) cripplingly exaggerated amount of foreign reliance, and this article which you say you understand "in mysterious ways" portrayed that problem as the main theme. That is in fact the main problem that caused competent and proven commanders against Karabekir to be excluded from the military's decision making process. Andranik Ozanian was insulted and chased away (and no, he had resigned form the ARF years before)! The instance where Sepuh's experienced forces are intentionally divided and rendered ineffective "because his troops and he didn't have mastery of the Russian language" is typical. These are just a few examples.
As to the constant comparison and unfounded accusations against me of somehow criticizing the current military command, I have not made any comment with regards to current participants, who are by far the superior than their predecessors. Granted, I have only passingly mentioned that the most reliable government instution is the Military, and this includes all competent and dedicated participants, Russophone or not. They have proven beyond any expectation to be competent military commanders, trainers, and strategists. I do not refer to their Russophone character. Russophilia is drastically different than merely being Russophone due to educational opportunities or lack thereof in the Armenian language in Soviet times outside of ArmSSR, and so on. The Russophile party also includes many Armenophones, and among the most dedicated Armenian nationalists are Russohpones.
I am well aware of Ter Gregorian's contributions, and I do not put him in the same category as those predecessors of his in 1920. You're making far too many assumptions about my supposed Russophobia. I harbor not one iota of negative feeling or opinions against the Russian people, the Russian empire, the current federation, or any Russian entity save for the skinhead bunch. As the matter of fact I am, in other circcumstances, (unjustifiably) accused of pro-Russian bias!
My objection is to the overrreliance, overreliance (as I have mentioned in another post under a different article) on foreign support, and this overreliance is exemplified by the three successive current administrations. This overreliance on foreign support and total lack of faith in national strength - one's own people - was the norm in 1920 that caused the loss of Kars. The negative consequence of default of overreliance on foreign support, whether that is Russian, Iranian, or otherwise, is nonreliance on intranational resources and total neglect of intranational resources. Yerevan is the best bet on organizing Armenians worldwide, not the "party structure" nor any "benevolent union" which are supposedly apolitical in nature anyhow. Yet, we see Yerevan performing the reverse role of alienating a huge section of Armenians, expatriates, diasporans of various background, and more nationalist minded Armenians living in Armenia.
I would wager that if as much enthusiasm and energy was spent on domestic "protocols" and such, we would be in a far better bargaining position. I don't think you remember correctly the reasons for my bitterness toward David's megalomania in the past, but this issue, this position is precisely why I was attacked without any provocation initially by your buddy. Even standard questioning of the double community model, the most wasteful thing in the world where 2 churches and 2 schools are built for a 1000 people, are continuing despite the obvious dangers of "white genocide"? This was considered "dirty laundry that would give Turks too much fodder to work against David the Great." I can very well separate his accomplishments and genuine intentions from his megalomania. He, however, is incapable of making such distinctions, and you rarely have that same capacity.
On Hatchikian, the likelihood of non-response by Madame Secretary, once again, all these weak spots can be lessened by working more on "protocolizing" the domestic scene. You're complaining and lamenting over our lack of influence in Washington. My lamentation is more realistic. We can change ourselves and first of all try to influence ourselves and consolidate ourselves on a path beneficial to us as a nation, as a national identity.
Also, there is now apparently a rumor flying around E. Nalbandyan is married to Primakov's daughter? Clearly this doesn't matter as much, supposedly, (of course it does), but the deligitimized government who alienates the populations with Russophiliac, Europhiliac, Turkophiliac driven concessions is certainly the greatest reason for lamentation. No "policy" can be beneficial to us when the reigns are in the hands of Russophiles, Turkophiles, and Europhiles, anything except Armenophile.
Arto,
We are now concerned about Armenian security specifically. Canadian aborigenes, Japanese reailroad workers, Korean slaves in Japan, and so on are overall immaterial to our discussion. Regardless of this, there is no justification for genocide.
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Ironically, you contradict your own statements above. The Canada we speak of, despite it historically and fundamentally having been a pluralistic society with relatively tolerant attitudes toward immigrants, still had the legal sanction to dehumanize Chinese migrant workers and the like before according regulations and safeguards were implemented. Today the sanctioning of slave labor comes in the form of "foreign investments" in undeveloped states with unregulated (particularly with regards to labor rights) economies. The same is the case with the pluralistic fascist USA and their mistreatment of Irish, Chinese, and other ethnicities under the blanket of expansionism to the west, under free capitalism and total exploitation with no labor rights safeguards. Now, the American citizen is taught that his country is “the most free in the world,” but this country too invests in what could best be considered slave labor in undeveloped countries to the benefit of an increasingly constrictive oligopoly and increasingly impoverished middle class.
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This social stratification and incapacitation of the masses and concentration of power into the hands of fewer and fewer, made possible for the Executive branch under the influence and pressure of a so-called “neo-con faction” to illegally carry out full scale war without taking the legal steps of Congressional ratification and declaration. Iraq’s twice bombardment and eventual illegal occupation was achieved despite much opposition (and I tell you, the many branched opposition in the US is well-informed, formidable and large), and the support base in this “pluralistic” society came from a carefully crafted form of “messianic fascism” based on some counterfeit form of “Judeo-Christianity” where the US is carrying out some perverted form of “Messianic mission.” The second largest support base came from the “Freedom loving” rhetoric, where the sloganeering neo-cons worked the conditioned post-McCarthyist “anti-terrorism and anti-dictatorship” reflexes, a distorted chauvinism of “democracy”, into a messianic mob in itself in whose mind “The USA were merely exporting freedom by toppling dictators.” It is still a form of fascism, pluralistic fascism. The US, therefore, is a “fascist chef” with many kitchens, ready to serve whatever form of fascism required to mobilize many compartments and cells in its citizenry to carry on its imperialistic goals. The richer you are, the better your fascism is, the more palatable, since, again, it is fed to specific sectors of the masses by different circus clown, chefs, and propaganda alchemists.
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Turkey is now learning that lesson, a smoother form of fascism that appears “tolerant and pluralistic,” with important limitations maintained by certain static and quite intolerant components of managing this “pluralism” to still carry forth a fascistic agenda.
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As a result, Turkish aggressive policies toward Armenian existence in the region are active and don't show any signs of decline. Islamic rule has been merely massaged to apply new names to the same imperialist animal in order to conform to the nascent Islamic pabulum. Despite the pluralistic argument you give above, there is no convincing evidence that pan-Turkism will be on the decline any time soon.
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Ironically, therefore, with the advent of “acknowledging pluralism and recognition of ethnic diversity,” Turkey is merely showing more confidence in its ability to carry forth the “pluralist fascistic” agenda, merely a modified and more modern (America, Anglo, and so on) approach to societal consolidation under a different flavor of “messianic nationalist/patriotism.” Indeed, if the monolithic ethno-religious model is too unjustifiable considering the dymanics in communications, new ideas, and, as you say, many attacks on its 3 myths, then a new set of myths and ideologies must be concocted to carry forth the same agenda.
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When I read discussions among Turks on the newly coined phenomenon of “Neo-Ottomanism,” I mostly see 2 extreme views: “Thanks but no thanks. No more pluralism and decadence under an anachronistic Islamic theocracy” versus the “Yes, we are indeed destined to be the Islamic and Eurasian leaders in a multi-cultural empire under Turkic leadership,” and the latter is the more popular reaction as the days go by. There is indoctrination at many levels on this ideal where “pluralism” is exploited to carry forth the same pan-Turkist agenda with modifications made in accordance to the climate at hand.
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There is resistance by a few minorities, and perhaps the Ergenekon case is just that, within the Military, where a minority officers have not yet “gotten the hint” that is also given by their own Chief of Staff, that the “AKP is with us, don’t’ worry.” Another opinion on Ergenekon I have offered above, but the last versioin is more likely, come to think of it.
That's why there has to be instituted policy of secularism in Armenian community in order to avoid clashes and disagreements between Diocese and Prelacy.
This looks like a progressive move that will add to the your readers' depth and perspective on the issues of our times. It is important that we, in the diaspora, gain as much insight into the thinking within Turkey as possible. We have much to learn and this will add substance to our exposure. I look forward to this entry in the Weekly.
Gary,
Thank you for the link to that article. Yes, it is worth discussing in that vein. There have been many proposals of the kind, but surprisingly not (or perhaps not surprisingly) the successive administrations have been turning the blind eye. There have been proposals for organized emigration to Armenia from various states financed, organized and guided jointly between corresponding Republic and Diaspora agencies specifically for this purpose. I will read the article carefully tonight.
Similar things about the GDP have been said here by economists, former senior economic advisors under David Shahnazarian during both his tenures as foreign and national security minister. They too were essentially chased out of the system by Shahnazarian's severely corrupt administrative philosophies. They concluded that Armenians as a whole outperform the entire Turkish economy and Turkish diaspora by a factor of 1.3 to 1 if one takes into account leveraged control of strategic assets and so on. There is, as you are hinting, tremendous domestic potential which has been left almost completely untapped.
Stepan wrote, "It is important that we, in the diaspora, gain as much insight into the thinking within Turkey as possible."
Yes, though I would prefer gaining insight into not only the gangster government in Armenia but also Russia's influence there.
For the most part, I respect Turkish human rights advocates, but one caveat if I may: they advocate for Turkey, not Armenia. Let us remember that.
Gor, I with your comments . My belief that Turkey's end of denial and a sincere approachtowards reconciliation with be fueled by changes from within their society.We need to acknowledge this and,yes, criticize it, when appropriate. Insight into their diverse culture will be valuable if we are to engage in meaningful dialogue. It is incredible how little we know about each other; yet our paths
intersect frequently. We are all aware of the Turkish historical position the last 75 years to eliminate
Armenians from the history of Anatolia and the impact that has had on common Turkish citizens. We also are handicapped by a lack of knowldge. This type of journalism hopefully will lead to more dialogue, questions and insight. Our cause will only be improved by an educated and enlightened
base. Justice and reconciliation.....
Hagop,
All very material. Everything has its time and place in history. All the countries I mentioned except Japan eventually came to the realization of its checkered past. Japan soon will as well. Diasporan Armenian can push and push but circumstances and attitudes have to be right for a country to come to grips with its past. I am hoping the time is near for Turkey.
HagopN,
It is awkward to ask this, but I assume that your comment from 9:26p.m. is addressed to me, rather than a Gary, whom I cannot find when scrolling back. No problem, just trying to avoid confusion.
I still do not understand how one evaluates the equivalent of a GDP for a loose collection of globalised businesses - how do you handle the D in GDP? Surely the Armenian origin of someone speaks only in a very limited way as to whom to associate a "quasi-GDP"; and how do we know that the list of contributors is complete? It appears that these numbers should be by definition a pessimistic estimate, while I guess the optimism goes in the direction of our ability to use it...
Dear Ms. Gunaysu,
Thank you for your column. It reminds me that my great grandfather was a Hunchak activist (not nationalist, united with Turkish progressives) at the time of the Armenian genocide. He had been in prison for at least a year before the massacres began; he came home and his entire body was burnt black with chemicals in torture, according to my grandmother. When the genocide began, he was tortured to death in front of his wife and children in their home.
I read news from Greece. The new prime minister, George Papandreou, has as his first act made a visit to Turkey and the second to Cyprus. The Cypriots are now afraid of what compromises they will be asked to make. I now have no doubt the protocols are for the sake of Turkey's entry into the EC, something Mr. Papandreou unfortunately places more highly than his own country's interests, in my opinon. So, I will await something good to come out of them, but I am very skeptical.
I hope that among other things, human rights activists, you brave people in the tradition of my great grandfather, can carry on better than before. I hope that torture in prison will cease or at least lessen. My sympathies go to all who suffer for the cause of human rights. All of you.
Henry..
It is unfortunate that you don't think that Armenians in Diaspora should have a strong if not stronger voice as to what is going on in Armenia..People such as yourself and I am sure there are alot of you out there that makes this unity and working together impossible. I do apologize if I sound very rude and angry...not my intentions.. One of the readers here wrote that MAJORITY OF US had no choice but to move out of our country.. so VERY TRUE. HENCE, we are PART OF OUR COUNTRY no matter where we are.. We are connected with a cord just like a baby to a mother... Without our voice, Armenia can't be the country that it used to be .. Our brothers and sisters in Armenia are threatened and can't speak out.. Even though nowdays they are standing up and going against all the threats and consequences... More power to them.. However, they have less choices than we do .. Therefore, our support is essential and our voices SHOULD BE heard ..NO EXCEPTIONS..
It is just unfortunate to see that there are people who are ignorant of the fact that instead of thinking how Armenias in Armenia can't tell us what to do and we should not do it either, they should think HOW we can come together and do whatever it takes to get our nation back: be protesting, be monetary help, be being involved in the internal affairs and be having A STRONGER VOICE.... it is all of our responsibility to built our nation and not just Armenians in Armenia.. Keep that in mind..
Yours truly
The meaning of any commision is to delay the progress and solution of a process. Mr. Sarksyan was able todirect the attention of Armenia's and Diaspora's best minds from 10/27/99 and 03/01/08 toward a dilemma that has no answer. In fact, he could tighten the bolts and knots of Armenian Communities all over the World.
Dear Asbed:
I believe that Diasporan efforts to have Turkey and 3rd countries and organizations recognize the genocide *have* been extremely successful, though n0t 100% or even 90%. Maybe 65%. Has it been worth the energy? Yes. And, please, not all our energy has gone into the genocide issue. The Diaspora has also functioned relatively well in keeping its culture alive - church, media, social, cultural, and political organization - though of course rates of assimilation are high and must also be managed. We can look at the present state of things as half empty or half full. Yes, in some ways we have failed to advance as much as we could, or even backslid.
The Armenian Cause, which has genocide acknowledgment as but one part, has been kept alive for decades and longer. It is truly remarkable, Asbed, for a small ethnic group to have kept such a thing active and relevant for so long. Armenians have brought the genocide to the world's attention.
Turkey has been battered and put on the defensive. 100% successful? No. Has the Kurdish insurrection succeeded? No. Does that mean Kurds should end their multi-pronged efforts? No.
Turkey has not acknowledged the genocide? No problem. And who cares? Acknowledgement in and of itself has never been the goal. That is something we must educate our own people about.
We just keep hitting away. To what end? The end is justice -getting what measure of justice we can.
Asbed, no political cause of such huge dimensions can be said to have completely succeeded. To the extent that a cause succeeds, it simply brings new challenges anyway.
Can we do better? Yes. Do we need new, innovative strategies? Yes. So does Armenia. So
does Turkey. So do all political causes and countries.
You said this: "Armenians in Armenia do not go on talking about it on a regular basis as the diasporans do." Even if true, big deal. Maybe Hayastan *should* talk more about it. Or maybe Hayastanstis don't know enough about it as their schools are in lousy shape, and they did not learn about it enough during the Soviet era since nationalistic education was largely prohibited.
I know a Hayastanstsi woman who came over here and thought that a local Armenian Apostolic church at which she volunteered was "Catholic" ! She put down on her poorly written resume that she had volunteered at a Catholic church! Luckily I corrected that and more. These people are simply lacking a proper education. They think that because they grew up in Armenia, then they know everything there is to know about Armenians. Not so.
And maybe since Hayastanstis are poor they are more concerned with food, housing, and education.
I know that Armenian liberals think that Turkey has "changed " since it has not committed massacres against Armenians lately. That's because there are hardly any Armeniana left in Turkey anymore.
But the Cypriots and Kurds have been massacred lately. Forget about that? Oops. Well, every country massacres people once in a while, huh?
What would be the condition of Armenians in eastern Turkey today, Asbed, if there had been no genocide? They'd be massacred and deported in a flash if they dared to criticize the Turkish government or, God forbid, revolted like the Kurds have. What I call Armenian "liberals" ignore the realities and wish to project modernity on a country that does not deserve it.
Instead of viewing complaining about the idea of this commission from a passive-aggressive stance, perhaps it would be more productive if Armenians took a more pro-active approach. The door appears to be open now to intellectual curiosity and self-examination. So, take advantage of the moment. Why not invite Turkish scholars, historians and government people to the Zoryan, to a meeting with the IAGS, and to any and every venue where they can learn about that period of Ottoman history? A refusal to take part or to accept an invitation would speak volumes. At the same time, if a commission is in fact going to happen, I think it is imperative for bona fide genocide scholars, both Armenian and non-Armenian, to participate fully. This should be viewed as an essential educational opportunity, where everyone can learn something valuable, not as something to be shunned or manipulated for strategic advantage. Turkey surely knows by now that it is the only place on the planet that challenges the veracity of the genocide. It may not want to own up to the misdeeds of those who founded modern Turkey, but it is up to Armenians to 'harkell' them in every way possible, since they are obviously unable or unwilling to do it on their own.
We need a similar effort in Armenia. It is true that very few have openly been supportive of the commission, but manyscholars here are silent because they do not want to upset Serzhik or lose their jobs. And the very few who have spoken in support of it are employed by the state. The Genocide Museum Institute Director is one example...
Yes, Greg, my late night tired eyes made me type Gary instead. Sorry.
Dear Arto,
I hope you're right, but I don't expect it.
Mouradian has brought together Armenian scholars from a cross section of the Armenian American community (and beyond). This document is a reminder to those who argue that there is a "silent majority" supporting the protocols that their arguments are worthless. There is only a silent majority that has serious concerns. And if they do not demonstrate and protest on the streets, it does not mean they are with the "silent majority" proponents. We are all concerned. Those who don't care never cared. But those who care and follow cannot be with a historians commission. Unless they are following orders from the state department ot they are following their business interests in Armenia...
Ask and you shall receive your answer. And the answer cannot be accepting a historians' commission. Mouradian has done exactly that. He has asked.
IF the Parliament will endorse the protocols, and IF the opposition (ARF) does not ask for Sargsyan's resignation (curiously only Ter-Petrosssian's party has done this), then what is the fuss about? On one hand, ARF is against the protocols but on the other hand it is only asking for Nalbandian's resignation. So if we (Diaspora) can't stop the protocols and the commission, why not at least lobby that some or all of the above historians be included on the Commission, thus at least ensuring a fair review of the documents? Is the Diaspora able to at least do that?
Arto, I would like to add that Americans are in general very nice people who are appalled by thekilling machine that their government is. Yet, they are not in control somehow. In other words, you have not read a single word I have written carefully. The controlling interests in Canada and the US, despite having accepted their "checkered" past (which, not matter how one measures it, is not nearly as bloody, barbaric, and cruel as Turkey's remote and recent history), have merely adopted a "superficial acknowledgment" of their past errors. They have merely transferred their in fact in some ways escalated forms of fascism to different channels and flavors. Read what I wrote above carefully. It's there 24 hours a day, 7 days week, at no charge.
This is in response to Grant's request. I am not sure if I can wield it into another op ed. I read the guidelines and you cannot cut and paste, the Washington Post wants original pieces. If I can get a breath from teaching this week, I can try to draft something new. Thank you all for your comments.
It's very nice of you to consider it, Prof. Semerdjian, but believe me, the national media is currently pushing the state department's agenda. No OpEd was published in any major newspaper disagreeing with the protocols in any shape or form. I forwarded your OpEd to my non-Armenian friends with whom I was having a discussion on this the other day. It was appreciated very much...
Diaspora needs a new political party to be responsible for Armenian interest in the world as well as in Armenia itself. We have to commit certain percentage of our income for this cause.
Long Live Armenia and Armenians!
Aram, I respect your comments and agree with the basic message. As I see it, we have two basic
challenges. As a result of our subjugation for over 70 years and an awakening diaspora, our political self-esteem from a governing perspective is limited. We don't think we are capableof standing out on the world stage. We behave overly oncerned with what the "powers"want. The true test of a governmentis how connected it is ith ts population. Are they generally representative of the pulse of the society? We, obviously, have along way to go here; given the maturation curve we are on for the
full democratization of Armenia. This is where the grass roots provide the "check and balance" and the motivation for change. The ARF is playing an important and effective role in providing the vehicle for this expression. Regardless of how we feel on this matter, our nation requires free expression for our people to feel vested in this process. There is alreadytoo much sentiment that the
protocols are imposed.
The other major challenge we are making progress on is the role of the diaspora and its integration in the process with Armenia. Obviously, the Armenian government has a major responsibility in making this happen. We need to continue to amkeour voices heard and motivate them to be more receptive. Hopefully, this was the big learning takeawayfor Sargisian. We must not let the Turks exploit any diaspora/Armenia dialogue whileour relationship grows.
le we have our share of disappointments with the current protocols, I think that it's important to remind ourselves that the truth will prevail, Karabagh will remain Armenian and together we will be stronger.
Նաբուքօի Թուրքիո փոխառեն Ռուսաստանի միջով գնալու պրոտոկոլի հաստատման հետ ի՞նչ կապ ունի: Մանրամասն կարո՞ղ եք բացատրել:
First, Serge "claims" that the commission will not discuss whether the genocide happened. He says Armenia will only allow a discussion of the *consequences* of the genocide. If true - and I don't think anyone really knows - this is good, but I am not sure that Turks, or the lousy Europeans, will accept such a thing. They will insist on an investigation into 1915 - 1923 and will insist that Turkish deniers take part.
Second, no commission with Turks on it can ever come to a unanimous decision. That is what the Turks are counting on and hope for: a split decision, which mean no decision. As much as I detest the TARC/ICTJ study it did grudgingly come to a decision that it was genocide. And what did the Turks do? They ignored it. Just as they will ignore a joint commission that happens to come to a decision of "genocide". I do not think Serge or his advisors are smart enough to figure this out.
Oh, by the way, when was the last time you heard a Russian leader talk about the Armenian genocide? You probably can't remember, and neither can I. I say this because it is clear that Russia is playing footsie with Turkey and could stab Armenia in the back as it has many times by siding with Turkey.
Look, we talk about the US not acknowledging the genocide (which is not quite true if you know the real record going back to 1951 and the World Court filing). But how about Russia? The Duma passed a genocide acknowledgment but it seems like mere formality now.
My point is, if the US is supposed to acknowledge the genocide over and over, is not Armenia's alleged "ally," Russia, supposed to do the same?
Apparently Diaspora does not have much voice nowdays according to Sarkissian... well, i think Diaspora did not have much voice at all... According to Sarkissian, we are wild monkeys living on an island and have no attachment what so ever with the mother ship...
However, as he himself saw during his visit to US, how his own people did not want to see his face around here because of what he has done, he still decided to put up a show and show good faith.. but again, Diaspora was out of his agenda when visiting to watch the match with his enemy.. He does not ask our permission nor cares about our views..
Therefore as Papken suggested, we need to have some sort of connection with Armenia and that is only going to happen through spending money.. I will give as much as I can no matter how little it is on a monthly basis to a cause, organization, body of strong and honest individuals to represent Diaspora...All I know is we, the Diaspora have and should have power and voice that needs to be heard and respected in the Armenian government...
Of course the Turks think that the commission is their victory, but why should we think that way.
We can turn the whole thing against them by making the discussions as public as possible and shuttering the wall of silence within Turkish society. Of course Hayastanci historians cannot do that because most of them are not professional enough, wi (I am Hayastanci myself, so I know it) so we need to include Diaspora historians and also dissident Turkish historians like Taner Akcham.
If we are smart enough, Turks will be begging us to close the commission a year after it starts working
We need a strong and a very patriotic government to take over Armenia and one who knows how to be the master in politics to come up as a winner; and I don't mean Levon Der Bedrossian nor Serge Sarksyan as they are both NOT for Armenia or Armenia's vital cause. I am still waiting for the ARF-Tashnagtsoutyun to create a more powerful and a much more patriotic Armenian government to take place that are not made up of Oligarchs who's mere interests are staying in power and making mega bucks to take their millions to Dubai or to Europe. Someone here suggested that the Diaspora and the valid educated and true historians but not the one's imposed by governments and a denialist government by Turkey. But including non-Armenian historians and the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) could also take part within the historical commission. Although at the rate that Turkey's government is going by their denialist disastrous penal code that whomever speaks about the Genocide is committing a crime against Turkishness, I don't think that their historians commission will be anything but employed by their denialist government (Turkey).
I still maintain that Diaspora can and should continue their mission by forming their voice through an organized supreme body or a supreme party and continue to work with the people of Armenia. NOT the doomed government of today's Armenia but with the Armenian people who are not employed by Serge or his government.
A small subset of Armenians scholars have spoken and most decided to let the commission go forward without them, standing for principles (that had a place pre-Protocol) over perseverance. Operationally, they may be abandoning the historical commission to Soviet-era trained “experts”. Even if needed at the proceedings to help Armenians at this crucial juncture, the following have been on record as saying:
Hovannisian: Recognition, then commission – not me
Balakian: Integrity of scholarship is at stake – not me
Kevorkian: Chances of successful historical research in Turkey are close to null – pas moi
Sanjian: The sub-commission is a victory for Turkey’s Kemalist establishment – not me
Simonian: One signature offers what Turkey couldn’t achieve in decades – not me
Semerdjian: Protocols engage in genocide denial – not me
Arkun: Historical record clear, political solution needed – not me
Kaligian: Commission’s mere existence will be exploited by the Turkish government – not me
Der Matossian: Involvement of governments defies the basic tenets of writing history – not me
Theriault: Sarkisian and Nalbandian have rescued the failed Turkish denial campaign – not me
...and
Panossian: Take commission seriously, but don’t lose sleep over it – might participate
Mamigonian: Historical facts are not negotiated, they are studied – would watch
Imagine being in the same troop with the people on this list, during a crucial battle. One would never be sure if they would shoot at the real enemy or desert.
One could also imagine members of the Turkish Historical Society, reading this and beginning to breath a sigh of relief as Armenians excuse themselves one by one, making Halacoglu’s job that much easier.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Finally, at long last, Armenian American academicians speak up.
But when a Turkish scholar was arrested in Armenia a few years ago, and when some academicians in Armenia accused some Armenian American scholars of being bought off and misguided by downplaying how far back they placed Armenian origins, these Armenian American academicians spoke up loud and clear with petitions, letters, etc.
But when Hayastan came up with this silly "joint" (ie. Turkish deniers on board) historical commission idea, many of those same American academicians were silent. It took the Armenian Weekly to get them to open their mouths. This does not speak well of most of these academicians.
In terms of the so-called "joint" commission, it seems that these academicians do not wish to dignify it by saying they will take part. That is a valid position. We shall see how things develop.
Finally, I have never ever heard of a knowledgable Armenian who ever proposed to have a "joint" commission of Turks and Armenians research 1915. Funny how some people are now jumping on it as if it's a good idea or one that we have to go along with. Even the IAGS - non-Armenians - thinks it's a stupid idea.
If it is such a good idea, why didn't a lot of serious Armenians propose it before? Yeh, I know - it's a fact now, and we have to accept it. Is it a fact? Must we accept it? Who says?
When entities in Armenia charged that Western academics, including DiasporanArmenian ones, were following a narrative that did not recognize how trulyfar back Armenian history went, the Diasporan Armenian academics were quickto formulate a petition denouncing such charges. When a Turkish scholarbought an old, rare Armenian book in Armenia and was prevented by customsfrom removing it from the homeland, Diasporan Armenian academics were quickto formulate a petition denouncing Armenia’s treatment of this Turkishscholar. Now, when the Sargsyan and Erdogan administrations are putting theArmenian Genocide itself put up for historical debate, where are these DiasporanArmenian academics? Where is the denunciation? Where is the petition? What is to stop a subset (better yet, the whole lot) of Armenian scholars from joining ranks and expressing their outrage and VERY VOCALLY refusing and resisting the idea of an historic commission? Are they afraid of losing their jobs at universities? Of being denounced as "extremists" who are somehow against free speech?
I haven't seen any analysis of what this commission would look like. Searching the internet for an analogue, I found a "Japan-China Joint History Research Committee." It was set up in 2006, with a great deal of the fanfare, "to deepen objective perception toward history through this research and promote mutual understanding." Sound familiar? Since then, there haven't been many reports on it, but it seems it has quietly fallen flat on its face. The two sides each appointed 10 members, who have since decided that they can't agree, and are issuing separate reports. I fear a similar result here, with the upshot being to put the denialist position on an equal footing with the truth.
But these are all Armenian scholars supportive of the Armenian side, what value could this add to the discussions? We know already where these people stand and this side of the story.
To be effective in this political fight, to actually get something for us Armenians out of this struggle and not just see things through the wishful-thinking colored glasses, only through I-only-hear-what-makes-me-feel-good-and-self-righteous colored glasses, we have to consider all points of views and find a way out through that. Not this one-sided opinions, what's the value of this?
I have a copy of a lithograph made in 1972 at the United States Military Academy for the 1972 Army-Navy game signed by James J. Boujikian. Is he related to you?
For David Davidian:
Yerevan picks historians for commission
HURRIYET
Monday, October 19, 2009
VERCİHAN ZİFLİOĞLU
ISTANBUL - Hürriyet Daily News
Yerevan has already picked the Armenian historians expected to participate in the controversial history commission, although the historic agreement aimed at normalizing relations between Turkey and Armenia has yet to be ratified by either parliament.
Also, an Armenian historian who was born in Istanbul has been unofficially put in charge of the committee by the Turkish government.
The history commission, which is expected to be part of an intergovernmental commission between the two countries, is one of the most delicate matters in the recently signed diplomatic protocols.
Although not mentioned in the protocols, Turkey has been naming a settlement on the long-standing territorial dispute of Nagorno-Karabakh and the history commission as preconditions for reconciliation with its ex-Soviet neighbor. Ankara says the joint history commission should study and discuss the 1915 deaths of Armenians during the last days of the Ottoman Empire.
Armenian President Serge Sarkisian and his government rejected Turkey’s offer of a history commission, labeling it as “politically motivated.” However, while saying Armenia would never step down from its stance on the 1915 killings, Yerevan has already chosen the historians for the commission.
The names for the commission were selected by the administration of Sarkisian, a senior Armenian government official told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review. The official was speaking on the condition of anonymity due the sensitivity of the issue. Another diplomatic source from the Turkish side also verified the appointments, further saying that the commission would begin working immediately if the diplomatic protocols are ratified by both the Turkish and Armenian parliaments.
Meanwhile, an Armenian historian who was born in Istanbul is unofficially holding meetings for Turkey about the establishment of the commission. The Armenian historian, who went to Yerevan last year to conduct research using the archives of the Genocide Museum, is also the first historian of Armenian origin who was granted special permission by former President Fahri Korutürk to conduct research using the Ottoman archives in 1974.
The Armenian side would offer only Armenian historians to the commission, he said, adding that historians from the diaspora, who have been carrying out research in the archives of many countries, would not be included.
Ara Sarafian, a leading diaspora historian and the director of London-based Gomidas Institute, said the commission matter is political and he does not want to comment on the issue. In a previous interview with the Daily News, Sarafian said Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s call for a history commission was a positive move, but added that Armenia is not the right address for the issue. “The archived documents in Armenia are insufficient. The freedom of historians is limited. So, a delicate matter such as genocide will be pulled into the political arena,” he said.
Now, Turkey cannot deny the Armenian Genocide because it agreed to investigate through joining commission. If Turkey did really believe that Armenian Genocide did not happen, it would not agree for joint commission. Like Armenians who are against joint commission do know that it did happened. Those who agree with Turkey like Mr. Sargisian, the ex-president of Diaspora, does not believe that Armenian genocide really happened.
All Armenian political organizations have lost their populous trust because having more than 100 years history have not been able to hold on Armenian national interests. The latest events prove just that.
How I can trust Mr. Sargisian on any thing he says when he say something but signs something else.
Just compare his address to his people on the morning of October 10, 2009 and the content of the so called protocols. All of us know that what is written controls not what were going on in hotel rooms.
A new political party with a charter compatible with 21st century is needed. The necessary component of this project is money. The sufficient component of it is a group of young people who are not agent of high powers.
If you agree with me, please contact with me at:
papkenhartunian@gmail.com
P.S. Gayane, I would like to have your email. Thank you.
WRONG WRONG GET YOOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!
to the first one tthe turks killed 1.5 million armenians!
Read Taner Akcam: A Shameful Act
I don't think any 'Commission' is needed. An unconditional Turkish apology seems more in order.
One of the things that did stand out for me when I visited Armenia was the lack of bookstores. There is a nice one in the hrabarak across from the Marriott. Otherwise nothing. Anyone know of any others in Yerevan? Gyumri?
Thank you Henrik.. That is a start..
Papken:
My e-mail is gayanevoskanyan@yahoo.com.
I am someone with no strong financial status; however I do love my country and countrymen and countrywomen and I will do my best to assist with whatever necessary.. one thing I do is to educate all my NON-Armenian friends by sharing stories and articles from Asbarez and Armenian Weekly.. I cause awareness what is going on in Armenia and how Armenia is treated by not only Turkey but also US and Russia and other international countries.. the more people are educated, the better we are off.. at least I hope so.. can't do it with financial help, I do it with things like this..
Gayane
There is a lot that israel 'should' do, but it is not going to happen anytime soon. Don't be suprised to see washington send hillary to tel aviv and ankara, after all, these are america's two favorite kids.
I would like to thank these scholars one by one for their thorough analysis and the Weekly for approaching them. I would like to request from Mr. Mouradian to contact scholars from Armenia and also compile their comments.
Thank you ms. Keskin for being true to reality and sincere. My grandparents suffered a great deal because of the genocide. I will carry their burden and passed it on to my children untill the guilty acknowledge his crime and paid the price.
If its any consolation for you and many turks or kurds like yourself I FORGIVE YOU.
Corageous words. Thank you for this.
Thank you and may God bless you for your honesty. There is an old Armenian saying that "he who speaks the truth must be prepared to flee from seven villages". Be mindful of your safety.
To Aram Arkun:
You posted a piece by Vercihan Ziflioglu, which is unverifiable and may be part of the continued Turkish media spin.
The article states, "Although not mentioned in the protocols, Turkey has been naming a settlement on the long-standing territorial dispute of Nagorno-Karabakh and the history commission as preconditions for reconciliation with its ex-Soviet neighbor."
There is no reason at all to believe this and puts into question the rest of the article. The very second the Turks connect these Protocols with NKR, Armenia will, and has, cried foul. While the Armenian historian(s) section may be accurate, there is no independent way of its verification, unless you can personally attest to this part of the Turkish story. I would prefer to see this in an official Armenian declaration, rather than the Hurriyet.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
thank you profesor
That is nice.
Now will you also apologize for the 40K lives lost due to Kurdish terrorism and insurgency? While you are at it, will you also apologize for the countless victims of the Armenian uprisings and revolts and terrorism? How about my grandfather's family that was totally wiped out (not marched off or relocated!) by Armenians in Bitlis in 1916? How about extracting an apology for the victims of the real gonocide in Karabag?
Please Eren hanim, let's get real... we all have stories, this is Middle East!
well profesor hamperoutyoun
Thank You, Ms. Eren Keskin, Thank You. As a matter of fact, today, You are luckier than any Armenian citizen. You have an elected President. Armenian citizens are being deprived of an elected President for about 13 years.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
This is a targeting observation and excellent analysis without any bias. Will Turkey faint?
Mr. Sarksyan is in the position of Jesus without Christ. He expects Mr. Putin to give him the Cross.
There is a lack of bookstores in Yerevan, granted. But Dr. Gregorian seems to have misplaced the few ones that existed the last time he went. After the collapse of the Soviet regime, many closed, but there was always at least one or more. I can mention three survivors from the pre-independent period: the one Random Armenian mentioned before ("Ani"), the one on Mashtots Street accross the office of Aeroflot ("Grkeri Ashkharh") and the one near Matenadaran ("Luys"). Also we have to mention "Noyan Tapan", along "Ani" across from the Marriott Armenia, and "Arvesti Kamurj", better known as "Art Bridge" on Abovian. Last August I heard, but didn't see, of one in the University of Yerevan, of at least one more in the outskirts, and I know that the Matenadaran has a small bookstore on its entrance. Also deserves to be mentioned the bookstore of the Holy See, at the entrance of St. Echmiadzin.
Thank you Eren for sharing your thoughts. Your column I expect will be very interesting. It is amazing how little we know of the Turks and the Kurds. The Genocide has suppressed our appetite for learning about others. Yes, we all have our stories about kind Turks and Kurds, but these experiences are 90 years old. My generation needs to update our knowledge of these cultures. I am hoping that your column provides some insight in this regard.
One day the genocide will be acknowledged by Turkey and the deniers will have lost. In the transition from today to that day, there are a growing number of Turks and Kurds that we need to encourage and embrace; for it is they that are leading the transformation of Turkey. It is that change
that will ennable reconciliation. As, Armenians, we need to be prepared also. To listen, to learn and to be active from our hearts. We need to focus on the Turkish government and its policies; not the Turkish people. This will add strength to our cause. We have lived with stereotypes for too long. Our
position in this world is improving. Let's keep up with it. Good luck to you, Eren.
Why does the possibility of confronting actual facts so scary for some? Why should some topics be taboo and get a pass from a reality check? After all, is it not Turks who have brain washed their people and hide behind lies?
Turkish and Ottoman archives have been mostly organized, open and available to serious researches of all kinds for a few decades now. That was all one would hear some years ago, that the proof was in the archives and Turkey was accused of hiding the shameful fact. Well, the smoking gun has failed to materialize and the calls have ceased.
In fact, the picture that emerges from the archives reflects very closely what many serious hitorians have claimed for a long time and got abused for it.
I do not think a commission, no matter what the outcome, will accomplish much. By that I mean, it will not change great many hearts or minds on either side. This issue is hardly about facts and figures, it is about a national identity and its defining myths. Those who naively compare notes and histories should know better.
My guess is though, if the commission does actually work professionally, Armenians will learn a lot many more important details of their history than Turks.
Meanwhile the only archives left in the dark are the Armenian and Russian ones.
I sympathize with those who are fearful of facts in this case.
Henrik, your observations accurate and appreciated. The division now in its 76th year has been institutionalized by a community either too parochial to integrate( are we more concernedabout which church we go to or rather that you are a practicing Armenian Christian)or lacking the visionto unify. Unlike my parents and grandparents, I was born into the split as a 2nd generation Armenian-American. The schism is baseless in today's community.Most Armenians don't even understand the historical basis for the current state. Moreover they don't care. But they also don't care enough to demand change from their leaders. We are all too busy in our local lives;trying to maintain what we inherited. But have we ever considered that what we inherited is not the natural state? Our lack of passion to correct this sin is amot. As a Christian people,we are called to forgive and to reconcile.
Our leaders in the church are waiting for a signal from us. Our tolerance causes their inaction.
Henrik, keep the faith. I grew up in the Prelacy and now go to a Diocesan church. I was in the AYF and my children are in the ACYOA. There are many like this both ways. Our parish is about half people who grew up in the Prelacy and half Diocesan. The key is to love our Lord and the Armenian Church. This will heal us and give us the spirit to respect each other. That is how the church started.
Here's some background information on Ms. Ziflioglu.
www.euromedalex.org/journalist-prize/vercihan-ziflioglu
I appreciate your concern and honesty but I agree with other reviews that you should be careful on what you write for your own safety's sake. It is nice to hear from someone other than Armenian to exress these types of feelings. But don't you think how critical is our (Armanians) condition that only very small amount of people participate in regards to this matter. Everyone shows that they are concerned but when I go to all these various public gatherings, I don't see even 10% of Armenians that live in LA, some of them don't even know what it says in the protocol. How about you write another article and suggest our Armenians to finally be together as one, to be part of our community, to be supportive and willing, to spend more time on reading these type of articles and try to make a change... There are so many things that need to be done, but the first step would be to start caring.
"Playing the skillful political games of their Ottoman predecessors, Turkey’s current masters present their country under various guises—as European and Middle Eastern, Islamic and secular, pro-Arab and pro-Israeli."
Sounds like the USA or Russia or any other power LOL :) Turkey has had an imperial past and has tasted being powerful and influential in its region and beyond. They will not be imperial again but will so in terms of economic power and political power into the following decades. No one can deny that fact as there is nothing stopping it being so (particularly internal strife which is getting lesser and lesser everyday).
I also love the number of times this article says "Israel should..." this is such a typical example of a pre-set opinion even before such an article was written.
Regards
Peter.
Heir; The cultural nation concept is much more agreeable if you are living comfortably in Watertown than say Gyumri or Kapan. No-one's trampling on your rights; however it would be nice if the same rights could be made available to those of us over here in the Caucasus. This far sighted and innovative rapprochement may just help allow this to happen.
At what point did you get a monopoly on victimhood? In 1900 there were 30,000 people living in Yerevan; there are now 1.6m. Why do you think that might be? Possibly because they to were chased out by the Turks, but crossed a mountain rather than a sea.
You seem to be indicate that by talking with the neibours we are in some way betraying your personal heritage.
Perhaps we are just evolving into a proper, functioning nation, but maybe that doesn't fit your idea of how Armenians here should behave?
Has anyone considered that maybe, just maybe, the Turks actually WANT an impartial group, or someone other than somewhat biased Armenians, to educate and even convince them of their own guilt? They know the Turkish public will not believe Armenians, so by inviting scholars who are unconnected, but fully knowledgable of this specific history episode, to the table, the facts can be aired without blaming the Armenians for partisanship. This happens in business all the time. Impartial consultants are brought in to a company to examine problems and recommend a solution that none of the players could have devised or recommended themselves because they are too close to the issues. There is an opportunity here, but as they say in psychiatry...in order for change to happen - 'you gotta wanna'.
Karekin, I certainly considered that point. It is a supplemental reason (the main one being his exhaustive research) that I always refer to Taner Akcam and his two books (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Shameful-Act-Armenian-Genocide-Responsibility/dp/0805079327" rel="nofollow">A Shameful Ac</a>t & <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Republic-Nationalism-Armenian-Genocide/dp/1842775278" rel="nofollow">From Empire to Republic</a>).<br>
Taner Akcam is Turkish.
Or was, he was granted asylum in Germany. Using his research as a point of reference should be fine for all interested parties. As <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/books/review/Bass.t.html" rel="nofollow">The New York Times</a> wrote:<br>
This dense, measured and footnote-heavy book poses a stern challenge to modern Turkish polemicists, and if there is any response to be made, it can be done only with additional primary research in the archival records.
Actually, I didn’t find it as hard to read as this quote indicates. It’s quite a page-turner.
Thank you for your courage
It's heartening to read is. I believe a country that has been in denial for almost a century is very hard to heal and perhaps is sick beyond redemption. Turks forget that it's not only the Genocide, it's been six centuries of abuses and attrocities (even though they tend to take a rosy view of the Ottoman years, which were mostly appalling for Armenians, Greeks and all those who were the inhabitants of these lands before the hordes came from the East). Let's more Turks will come forward to apologize for their denial of their shameful past.
Tom, thanks for another great story. My current pastor, Fr. Krikor Sabounjian served this community for many years. My mother was a summer resident of the Cape for 20 years and attended church. The people of this parish are warm with a genuine spirit. Alice and Mark served the Indian Orchard parish of St. Gregory's for many years. They are fine people and I am sure they will adda a great deal of value for the Cape Cod community. Thank you for writing these types of articles that sometimes fall under the radar of our community.
I like to respond to Murat's comment.
Very typical of turkish false propaganda, I don't know what you know about masacres in tbilisi by Armenians in 1916 Let me tell you after the 1915 GENOCIDE Armenians were in no position or had no ability to commit any masacers anywhere, for your information Armenians were barely fighting for their survival you can read all about it in the 1916 NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC magazine. Brainwashes like this got the turks where they are today so OPPEN your eyes. How dare you talking about genocide in Karabag you ignorant, unless you're talking about what the azeris did in Sumgayit and Baku, go get your facts straight. Last point the turks have been suppressing the Armenians and the Kurds till today in turkey, the 40k you are talking about they are the result of the turkish goverments denial and suppressing policies, go blame them. the kurds have the right to live on their land as free as any turks and don't you mix freedom fighting with terrorism, even if it is the Kurds learned it from the turks did you forget?
Henrik....I have read Akcam's work and find it very enlightening. I've also been to Turkey several times and spoken with many, many people there. Behind closed doors, every single one acknowledges the full truth about what happened to the Armenians...it's not a secret, but it is illegal to talk or write about it openly and honestly. I don't feel that Turks want to have to defend what happened, but not many are willing to go to jail for trying to correct the myths surrounding the birth of modern Turkey. The other dirty little secret of this story is this...the evil group who masterminded the Armenian genocide may have been Ottoman, but were not truly Turkish. Sadly, all Turks are now in the position of having to defend the evil deeds of those people and put themselves in jeopardy if they issue any criticism or discuss it honestly, which is another reason the burden of exposing the truth rests on outsiders. If Armenians want to help themselves, they would do well to push for true democracy and freedom of speech in Turkey, as well as in Armenia and in the diaspora. As we all know, exposing something to good, strong light will cleanse it thoroughly and get rid of anything ugly that was lingering in the darkness.
Tears welled up as I read this piece.
It triggered in my memory the story of a family I know who moved from New Mexico to California (LA area). They are quite certain they're from Indian stock, but don;t really know because two generations ago, being Indian was such a "horrible" thing that the family suppressed its identity. New mexico has no sea to swim out in and talk about those "horrible" secrets...
Genocide comes in my forma, ovet and insidious.
Eren wrote:
Benda says, “Real intellectuals have to risk being burned at the stake, sent to exile, crucified. That’s why there aren’t many of them. Above all, they have to always be critical of status quo.”
Edward Said describes the intellectual as one who “tries to create crises, not to resolve them”.
These are also the qualities of saints - those whose lives are truly spiritual. Let us hope that truth wins. This starts in our hearts no matter where else it goes.
Peace.
The Turkish state is disciplining the Kurds under threat of restoring land to the descendants of Armenians massacred in 1915. No to the Republic of Armenia, but the Armenians of the Diaspora
Sassunian's insight into the intricacies of politics is always informative to his readers, particularly in their relationship where Armenia is concerned.It is encouraging to see Israel is opening its eyes to Turkish vascillating.I am glad Harut is reporting there is trouble in the Israeli-Turkish love affair. Shame on Israel for not throwing its weight behind the Armenian Genocide Resolution without using it as a card to play against Turkey. Sassunian should be appreciated for the great work he does for the Armenian people and truth and justice.
Article makes some fair points; but as long as we're going to be doling out historical blame, which group aligned with the Young Turks? A hero of which group advocated a racial brand of nationalism and then cut a deal with Hitler? Which party was most vocal in its opposition to the Karabakh movement? Which party was silent when the boss of 'Benedict Arnold' was cutting people down in the streets of Yerevan last March?
This is good time - actually anytime is a good time - for experts on the Assyrian and Pontic genocides to speak up more.
Turkey should be hit with genocide charges from all angles. Turkey exterminated its Christians in order to make it Turkicly homogeneous. That fact, not just the Armenian genocide, should be brought out.
Assyrian and Pontic Greek groups ought to speak up now and make their genocide charges loud and clear. I would like to see ANCA and Greek groups in DC coordinate their policies and activities more.
It's a good question wether CUP (Committee of Union and Progress) was Turkish.
As far as I know, at that time, 'Turkish' was moving from a derogative to an expression of stout, proud nationalism. But if that nationalism is tied to genocide, I can understand the fear that the light of history might yet destroy Turkey.
BTW, I know vaguely about the Assyrian genocide, but hardly anything about that on the Pontic Greek, apart from the torching of Smyrna. Got any pointers?
Rosie Malek-Yonan has written a large book, The Crimson Field, about the Assyrian genocide.
Unfortunately I didn't have time to read it yet.
Dear Bedros Efendi:
I think that your comments refer to the ARF.
I have some questions for you:
Can you tell us what the Ramkavar, Hunchak, and others Armenian political parties (other than the ARF) were doing around the time of the Young Turk revolution (1908), the Adana massacres (1909), the pre-WW I period (1914), the Genocide period (1915-23), the Soviet period (1920 - 1991), the demise of the USSR (1980's and early 1990's), and the Karabagh demonstrations and war (1980's and early 1990's)?
Bedros, can you tell us the status of those other political parties in the Diaspora and Armenia today? Do they have lots of people joining them? Outreach programs? Demonstrations? Are their young people politically active in the US and Armenia? Can you refer us to some political events they hold?
Peter,
turkey will not spread its influence too far without the tacit approval of Russia or Iran, especially in the Caucasus and Central Asia. The ideology of pan-turanism is not dead and both Russian and Iranian policy makers realize this. I think you must have read George Friedmans book, the next 100 years, and now give turkey more credit than it deserves. For sure turkey has potential and it is trying to use these things, but as long as they have issues with the kurds, which will not be solved anytime soon, and a strong Iran and Russia in the region, they will not become the dominant power in the region.
P.S. And do you disagree with what israel should do, according to this article?
Disagree with the final potshot at Serjik (don't support him per se, but the author's language isn't necessarily fair), but an otherwise very well articulated piece.
Aren't you tired of all these Genocide resolutions? Game 2010 has already began. Another year, another resolution, it is a sure sign that midterm elections are coming up.
As I'm not trying to get into a tit-for-tat I don't know that your questions are necessarily fair. My main point is the ARF should look into its own house before calling the kettle black. Moreover, there an assumptive, condescending undertone embedded in the author's approach. Supporting Armenia during the Soviet period was really such a terrible thing? Being Communist was so bad? Really, who would have been the party of workers and artisans as the author claims?
So no, I don't see them doing too much of anything. At the same time they never took the fool-hearty position of being against Armenia- Soviet or independent republic. If we believe this discourse of nation we should always support our 'brothers,' which the two other parties have done more consistently.
All three parties are to be properly criticized for their opposition to the Karabakh movement and remaining silent when the people again stood up for their rights. There's a perfectly good reason none of them have any power here in Yerevan.
To get back to the point I think you were trying to raise, yes, the ARF deserves credit for doing alot to strengthen the community, particularly in the 1930s and 1940s in the Middle East. But with that credit must come recognition of the many, many faults in their actions, a proper rebuke for their tendency to split the community (between Dashnaks and everyone else), a recognition of authoritarian tendencies (see Beirut, Tourian incident, and a whole host of others), and many other negatives. Again, I'm not advocating for another party, just calling a spade a spade when I see rhetoric.
What party stood by the corrupt Armenian government for ten years? What party and its followers stood by the status quo in Armenia after the assassination of our Prime Minister and other MPs in 1999 (don't forget March 1)? The ARF has stood by the corrupt governments of Kocharyan and Sargsyan and has only recently "realized" it error. This truly brings into question the ARF's motives. The ARF rightfully opposes the president's present rapprochement with Turkey, but how can it be trusted after a decade of cooperation with the corrupt, illegal, and murderous government we have today?
---Likewise, articles like that of Dr. Astarjian do not progress our national interests. Armenians of all political backgrounds should move beyond the political divisions of the past. Yes, the ARF, Hnchaks, and Ramkavars all made mistakes. That was then. This is now. We all need to realize what is happening in the last corner of independent Armenia. We should all, as Armenians, speak with one voice against Turkish aggression, as well as against the murderous oligarchy running our country.
Murat, you're very selective. Elsewhere you discuss Karabagh without mentioning Cyprus, for example. Firstly, the Ottoman archives, (particularly the Basbakanlik Archives) were the state archives. Everything produced, therefore, has an inherent bias and is far from 'objective.' In fact it is this 'document fetishism' that plagues history writing in general. Secondly, the archives have only been professionalized recently. Thirdly, the sensitive military archives in Ankara are far from open. Fourthly, the CUP archives have mysteriously 'disappeared.' Fifthly, I fail to see what a state established in 1918 could possibly have archived about 1915. Finally, the Russian archives have been opened- in fact at least three people have recently written dissertations on Russian-Turkish relations using the Russian archives. Moreover, some nationalist Turkish historian (not Halacoglu, but someone of his ilk- I'm guessing you consider them 'objective' and 'professional?') published a number of documents culled from the Russian archives in either the 1980s or 1990s.
Dear Bedros Efendi or is it Hadji Bedors?and Jirair
I read with somewhat dismay and sorrow your comments as to Dr. Henry Astarjian¨s otherwise "rhetori" or just plain points of view.I admire your command of the English language,though I prefer the "saroyanesque" simple one,so as to make my points clear and comprehensive by the generl public.He-Astarjian- makes his points quite clear as well as regards our "unsuccessfulness" not to say impotency when dealing with big power diplomacy.That is a fact.Try hard as our respectfull political parties have so far done,nothing tangible as yet achieved.This I say with sadness.Though to make it an impartial comment-this of mine-I would add, that they could not, they cannot since they do not have support from our general public, which in the past they used to call"the silent majority".When I mention general public I do not mean the very much advanced in age and the very young.Our public does have some backbone-so far not made use of- that is ,the middle aged and the ones just entering into real life-after studies,graduation and or apprenticed young.These form the present "Nirhogh Hsga-n" the slumbering giant yet to be mobilized...AND HERE NOW the response to dear Henry(he donated a full year of Armenian weekly to me a dozen or so years ago in N.J. at vartan church).Prior to which for a few years while living in Europe I was subsscribed to it though and a few other such weeklies.
"HOW NOW ARMENIANS" ??? Here goes:-While unlike others I do respect all our political parties with all their shortcomings .I mentioned that above.But NOW, my friend(s) we need to get the engine installed on a VEHICLE so to speak.Fpor that we need-mentioned above-The huge collectivities of our non-parisan, who alas have been dubbed as above and left "to drift away" from the Armenian Affairs arena.We need to mobilize these people .How? It is in detail format in my web page www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org which in brief now, those who are well advanced in their professions and can be formed into "Professional Colleagues Associations" PCA´s(5 on the scene already) the Health Medical, The Engineers & sciences,The Bar, The Sportivce and the jewellers(this latter should enlap the "furnishings and furnitues" and ten more other fields of profession defined in my web page then form into the Inter-Professional -their delages that is-see web P.-and then ask our political partgies to join in in order to have real PARTICIPATION AND REPRESENTATION in droves from all walks of life.Also one each from our spiritual denominations as delegates to a community country Central Council and on to the our Supreme Diaspora Council.
Main Objectiveis well described in my web P.´s Conf.2002 "paper" which was on the official site of RA´s Foreign Ministry for near 4 years...establish a"Natiomnal Investment Trust Fund" for without finances, nucleus of which ought to be registered in CH(Geneva) by our magnates each investing a huge amount ,together voer a billion dollars or so.Then ,the other mini magnates and on to the the ordinary Joe .That is close to a 100,000 Professionals.As regards to Genocide recognition, best I have heard so far was when I attended(my friend President of "Ancienne combattant francais Dórigin Armenian" Mr. Antoine BAGDIKIAN took me to 17 rue leu in Paris on April9(prior to Obam´s April 24 annual discourse re Armenians..
Professor Yves Ternon a stout defender of our cause ended his discourse by "Parlement a Parlement" which I interprete as -SEEK YOUR DEFENDERS IN SMALL , MIDDLE SIZE STATES,NOT ONLY FOR RECOGNITION OF OUR gENOCIDE BUT ALSO AS PARTNERS IN every possible way.
Regretfully the bog powers have always reneged on their promises to aid Armenia and Armenians and they will continue to do so.You go figure out why?
My political point of view is as follows as concerns our stance in this respect:-
If we pretend and/or aspire to be a socially formed -I like this better than, "civilized" people ..
then we should respect viewpoints (if beneficial,to our cause)come from any political party member of affilitate..I can gvie you a very good sample now:
When the Nakhijevan cemetery´s Khatchkars were being destroyed by azeri troops few years ago,there was this direct discussion b eing aired from Armenia´s H1 T.V.a heated one at that.This "tumblik" chap first in russian-which I don´t understand well, then in perfect Armenian near shouted"this minute,we should abandon the peace talks being conducted by the OSCE Minsk group,between us and azeris, till they immediately stop it and beg pardon.."No one listened to him.
After a few months in Yerevan I asked a friend who was that man?"why don´t you know? he is a Marxist", (later I found out the pres. of said party).So what I retorted, let him be a <maoist ,what not,but when he was right and said something that is correct,all others should have followed suit and agreed to his suggestion.So is the Armenian, as yet not properly formed political understanding that it does not matter to what current political ideology one belongs to or non at all, but if what one says something that is in the affirmative for the benefit of the all and THE NATION,it should be adopted-accepted period.So much for that folks I am getting old and time to go to sleep....
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
P.S.Dear Henry I salute you for your work ,but please understand we are not as yet<SOCIALLY FORMED::::EXCEPTIONS GRANTED
also please..E.& O. excepted as I type very fast-----g.p
Dear Gaytzag:
Please type slower.
Good article, except for the last part. Too many people are making the assumption that Serj and his team, or even ankara for that matter had a say in the push for normalization. This was decided in Moscow, and somewhat in Brussels and Washington. If Serj had said no, they would have found someone else to say yes. This isn't an excuse, it is the facts, small, resourceless, poor, nations can not dictate to the great powers.
Thank you Eren Keskin for your courage to speak the truth.
It is a shame that most polititians don't have your courage of conviction, if they did they go down in history as great.
Please, ANC, listen to your "grassroots who lead you," as you claim whenever you kiss up to fundraise. STOP groveling to legislators who, along with the State Dept, will stop these toothless, non-binding resolutions dead in their tracks. START pressing for reparations! START enlisting Pontic Greek and Assyrian groups to join you! Please, ANC, recognize that when the tactic does not work, you must change the tactic! Otherwise, you will lose what "grassroots" you still have.
Finally someone described the Armenian Genocide being not an option. This fact was supposed to be recognized long long time ago but we waited too long my fellows. Again, it is not too late. Like I said many many times to my Armenian people around me that it is a fact being next to a Non-Christian country and for any other being in place of Armenia or Greece would have the same problem maybe even worse. So lets help this Genocide be respected & RECOGNIZED by USA so our ancestors can be buried in PEACE and Accepted by Turkey as a MASS MURDER.
With so many layers of denial it is refreshing and touching to read your article Mr Erin Keskin!Thank you!You are an honorable person.
Will somebody please apologize for the killings of 2 million Ottoman Muslims by Armenians?
Will somebody please apologize for the killings of the Turkish diplomats and their children by Armenian Asala?
Will somebody please apologize for the killings of hundreds Azeri’s in the 1990's by Armenians?
Will somebody please apologize for all the Armenian lies about what really happened in 1915?
Will somebody please apologize to ME for the Armenian killings of my relatives during the Armenian Revolts?
Maybe Mrs Keskin is guilty, I'm not !
I don't want to be enemies with Armenia or the Armenians but both Armenian and Turks should beware of figures like mrs Keskin who just tries to heat up the anomosity between the Turkey and Armenia !
It doesn't feel right that Armenia is isolated and poor: only the Armenian people suffer from this situation. I do want that both countries normalize their relations but Armenia should accept that Turkey won't accept their unjust claims.
Like Mr Murat says: get over it, stop feeding the hate !
AR, successive Armenian governments have tried to achieve normalization. The difference in this case is Erdogan is a more willing partner (with sufficient political capital in Turkey) to actually pull off a deal. Brussels, Moscow, and Washington had a hand, certainly, but the final decisions were made here (Yerevan) and in Ankara.
Hye, communism was good? When? For Armenians it meant security from the vile Turk, perhaps a time for resurrection of our people/survivors... but communism has failed - yet it's mentality still is ingrained, i.e. Serge. We visited Haiastan still while still into communism, my husband and his buddy shared the one button for their jackets - the yerakoon. Haiastansis stopped them, just to shake their hands... And, when we were driven to sites, by bus (the bus was also stopping for the locals to ride) some members and the bus driver would be singing the 'heghapoghagan' songs - you
shall know all the 'locals' joyously sang these songs with us... So don't knock the ARF... I was there and our coming to Haiastan meant much to these 'locals'. One elderly gentleman, at a park, came and asked if we, from America, were teaching our children the Armenian language - he was so happy to know that we spoke Armenian at home. Further into the discussion, when I expressed concern about our brethern in Armenia he replied, and I never forgot this, Mezzee me hokeh, menk hos enk, menk mehr hoghen vran enk. In effect, we are on our own lands and we shall survive. And this was while Armenia was part of USSR... So hope springs eternal in the human heart! And so it is ...
ARF over the years, and the ARF of today... as Theodore Roosevelt has written is so well in his
IN THE ARENA.. will work toward goals - will succeed, and at times not be able to succeed... but, being in the Arena, knows, in his heart, that he has been there, all the way, in the Arena, giving his all... Manooshag
To Sema:
Aren't you tired of repeating the same old turkish propaganda?So tired of reading the same barks on every article by people like you.2 million ottoman muslims killed by Armenians?You've gone cuckoo...As for the azeris...how about the Sumgait & Baku massacres of Armenians???
Go & complain to your 200 plus prominent intellectuals who publicly/officially apologised for the Genocide of Armenians committed by the ottomans.
You are the one who is feeding hate...so please follow your own advice & stop!
We want JUSTICE SO THAT THE SOULS OF OUR MARTYRED CAN REST IN PEACE. Our lost land is haunted by their spirits.
Sema, Please take your rubbish elsewhere. You may not be personally responsible for what your State did to us in 1915 but by denying the Genocide you are in Armenians' view as guilty as the rest of the Turks who deny the Genocide. It's easy to say get over it when you are sitting on land & houses grabbed from everybody else who was there before the hordes that brought Turks there came to pillage our lands. And the last person to recommend Armenians to stop feeding hatred is a Turk like you. First, we do not feed hatred just because we demand justice for what Turkey did to us. Second, I really disagree with the way Turks "get over it and stop feeding the hatred." Last time Turks did that, they exterminated the Armenian nation. Go and take a walk in Western Armenia one of these days, Sema: go visit Ani, Kars, Erzerum, Van, Adana, Urfa, Amasya. Take a look at the Armenian houses, churches, inscriptions, everything else that still remains despite your government's efforts. Maybe they were abducted by Martians? Or Martians that dropped them in France, the United States, Lebanon, Syria, Argentina, Australia? Or maybe they collectively agreed to live the land they had been living in for millenia because they were sick and tired of living next to Turks, sick and tired of their abuses, their attrocities, their ignominies, their brutality and then, all of a sudden, in the spring of 1915 they said: "Let's go, let's leave our lands to these hordes"? Go and read good books (which most of the time means non-Turkish books) and find out, and in the mean time may be you can improve your English a tad, because it's really a bit of a headache to read in English all that humbug conceived in Turkish and in a Turkish mind. Then, when you are satisfied, pour down a glass or two of good scotch, one of Atatürk's favorites, or maybe the whole bottle, as he used to do in the bad old days. Best regards.
I urge interested readers to spend a few minutes scaning he web to see just how the Turkish lobby in America tries to keep Turkish Americans to stay silent about the Genocide or join the chorus of its notorious enforcers. How else to explain the open, gleeful and unabashed viciously racist anti Armenian, Greek and Assyrian material published, for example, by incoming ATAA President Ergun Kirlikovali, who has likened the deaths of Armenians in 1915 to a joke about dead flies, or his statement last year that the average Diasporan is so murderous and hateful that he desires to"'kill any Turk on sight." Mr. Kirlikovali lives in California, and is a much published and admired figure withinthe lobby and its friends. His hatred of Armenians is so great that on the day Hrant Dink was killed he published piece saying that the killer was likely an Armenian.
To my friends in the Armenian American community, I urge that you scan the web and keep abreast of what ATAA, TAC andTYALDF are up to. They hate Armenians, have scores of millions of dollars at their disposal, and will not rest until all Armenian Genocide education is eradicated, and American public schools use their textbooks alleging that Armenians were, as Sema above stated, the mass murderers of Turks.
Sema, bir az dusunmen gerek galiba. Ilk once, how could approximately 1.5-2 million people, generally economically disadvantaged, dispersed throughout the Empire, and without a government that could effectively mobilize them possibly kill 2 million people? Certainly there were revenge killings, and sporadic massacres were committed by Armenian regular troops serving in the Tsar's army (and, tragically, most of the victims were Alevis), but these pale in comparison to the killings orchestrated by a state. And therein lies the fault in your argument (which is just a repetition of TTK and CHP talking points). You try to equate the killing of diplomats by a handful of people from a farflung diaspora (who could not possibly speak for their imagined constituency) to systematic massacres carried out by a state. Thus, the blame falls to the CUP's ideological and legal successors- Ataturkist nationalism, which is the foundational myth of the present Republic of Turkey. Thus, the Republic of Turkey bears responsibility.
Moreover you, like most nationalist Turks, conflate the category 'Armenians' and see us as a monolith. When has the Republic of Armenia echoed the "unjust claims" (your words) of the Diaspora? Maybe if you actually read what Armenians themselves said, and not the garbage repeated in trash newspapers like Milliyet and Cumhurriyet (ikisi boktur!), you'd have a better idea. Enough of them are published in English.
Azerbaijan is a different issue, and the fact that you bring it up raises Armenians' fears that Turkish nationalism has a racial component to it (such as the proclamation at the Haydar Aliyev Parki in either Mecidiyekoy or Besiktas, can't remember which- Azerbayacan ve Turkiye, iki devlet bir milliyet). But, since you insist on bringing up issues unrelated to Armenian-Turkish relations, when will Turkey apologize for occupying and ethnically cleansing Cyprus? When will Turkey apologize for the killings of Bulgarians? When will Turkey apologize for the disastrous populations exchange and the burning of Smyrna? When will Turkey apologize for stealing northern Syria? When will Turkey apologize for closing its border with Armenia and, at times, not even allowing HUMANITARIAN AID to get through? When will Turkey apologize for saying they didn't want dirty Armenian blood when the Republic of Armenia offered assistance (including blood donations) following the earthquake in 1999?
Put down your CHP and MHP propaganda; try actually questioning their simple talking points. Try reading Radikal or Taraf. There's a reason internationally-recognized intellectuals write there.
Dear Sema
Do you even know the history of the otoman's. Where they came from and how they conquered the midle east and half of europ. do you think they did it by being nice to the people whoe were living on these lands for centuries, no my dear Sema they killed them, convert them or relocate them to the midle of the desert. so spare me the B.S. . Your ancesters where and are nothing but born criminals and pathalogical liers. it never amaizes me to heare a turck come up with a new story about how and how many turks the Armenians have "killed and masakered" Dear the HATE wont stop untill you stop the LIES. The turks should also appologise to the ASSIRIANS , ASHORIANS, GREEKS and KURDS. just hand over our lands and no one will get hirt. Besides is in it in your religion AN EYE FOR AN EYE and a TOOTH FOR A TOOTH. Again my Dear in the 1990's the azeris are the ones who killed Armenians and not the other way arround, get your head out of the sand.See how do you want the hatered to stop if you keep on lieing and deciving just accept the truth and lets moove on with our lives, then only then we can live side by side in peace.
No one is going to appologise for the killing of the turkish deplomats, because they as their goverment are guilty of concperacy and covering up a commited GENOCID. As long as the curent goverment and people of turkie don't admitt and appologise to the wrong doing of the otomans they will be guilty by association.
Oh, and Sema, the "lies" about 1915 are our grandparents' stories. While not excusable, why do you think people in the 1970s resorted to violence? Insult our family's memories enough and you could see what the conclusions would be. Blaming the victim- an imperialist trope. Just like the Americans, the British, and now the Israelis in Palestine. (see Edward Said)
Thank you to the Armenian Weekly editor for getting our historians to finally speak up. I was beginning to think that they were all on permanent academic leave.
The joint historical commission is a Turkish - TURKISH - idea proposed 4 years ago. So, Armenia is going along with a TURKISH proposal. Are we clear about this?
Two questions arise:
1. Why would Armenia agree to a Turkish proposal? (Answer: stupidity, lack of imagination, and betrayal, once again, on the genocide issue by Russia and the US)
2. What OTHER ideas do Armenia's president and foreign minister have for advancing the Armenian genocide issue (Answer: They have none whatsover. None as in zero. Maybe zero is too large a number. Perhaps -1000 is more like it. Does Armenia intend to join with the Diaspora in an effort to advance the genocide issue? The answer is Voch, or, in this case Nyet or No).
So that, in a nutshell, is Armenia's leadership today: utterly clueless.
hello,
I am a Turkish Citizen and to most turks "Young Turks" only connote the jakobin pan turkists whom they consider heroes. Maybe Cenk is trying to reclaim the term, like the gays did the word queer, but clearly its not working.
I would also like to state here that there are big steps being taken towards normalization of relations between Armenia and Turkey. Maybe someday we can get the incompetent Turkish government to acknowledge the genocide (as a citizen I am ashamed of the way my governments dealing with the issue)... and maybe some nationalist armenians will take back their land claims to eastern anatolia. Who knows eh ?
It is also important to know the names of the countries which recognize the Armenian genocide in chronological order. For instance which country was the 1st, or 2nd etc. and in what year?
thank you.
Mark raises a good point. The Young Turks were initially a large 'confederation' (for lack of a better term) of liberals and progressives who opposed the Sultan. Within them was the Committee for Union and Progress which gradually became the most powerful faction within them. It is the Ittihadists who committed the Genocide and created the ideology of rabid nationalism that Ataturk later built on. In fact, it was the CUP that stored weapons caches throughout Anatolia to form the backbone of a resistance movement should the Empire be occupied. It was on precisely this that Ataturk was able to base his national movement.
Dear AR,
Thanks for your compliment.I shall do as you say and type slower.I agree small nations cannort dictate the big ones.However,if we do as "suggested", we can muster up enough clout -why go far- to at the very least do as our own neighbours do, i.e. like, say great Turkey, that now and then even acts a bit on its own,ignoring or near ignoring their most important ally(remember ,when passage of U.S.troops was denied through their territory?) and yet 11 more such ..I have the Armenian Reporter´s one article, in which a compatriot mentioned each of those 11 more one by one.Indeed I do not think we are as yet that important to do that, but then some people conveniently forget that great Turkey is surrounded by not so very kindly disposed neighbours, like Greece, Syria, Bulgaria, even Iran and near all Arab other states....
Whereas,latter do sumpathize with Armenia-Armenians.Yes we do have some positively or kindly disposed nations around tiny Armenia.But again not enough clout(especially in Diaspora).
Like Dr Henry Astarjian has repeated several times over in his article that started this discussion-dialogue amongst us-not yet well organized....in Diaspora.It is in this aspect and respect that I have toiled hard, being an activist in Europe and now on paper or rather online trying to "suggest" that we do need to re-organizde the Diaspora(s) around one Supreme Council,with an important " National Investment Trust Fund".Hope you did take time out to enter into my Bulletins on web page of www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org
The No. 7 therein, deals with "A New Concept of Electoral System and Governance" which might be of some help in this regard,
Hama Haigagani Siro,
gaytzag palandjian
P.S. I do not wish to delve into present "imposed upon" as you describe ,protocols´ Fiasco,since this has yet to be ratified and ABOVE ALL ACCEPTED BY THE people, the Armenian people worldwide.Amended protocol SI-Yes, but not the one that was-is a fiasco.This does not mean that I am a hard-liner.Not at all, I have my own sugggestion for that too.which I shall expose next undefr a seperatge title.To which I wish to believe the Armenian weekly will give green light and publish,both here online and as well as in the weekly...let us wait,hope and see.
g.p
Manushak, I absolutely fail to see how anything you've written remotely counters, or even addresses, what I have stated (assuming you're trying to take on my comment that there was nothing wrong with being a communist, or supporting Soviet Armenia). Wow, so people sang revolutionary songs with you. Sultan guze, jnjel mezi, zartir lao mernim kezi! And? Is that a reason to somehow not be critical of the ARF?
So a few people were happy; they're happy, too, to know that I speak Armenian at home. Again, this relates tot he ARF how?
But, if you live here (as I do) and speak to people (and not just a handful of people at Vernisaj or around the Hraparak), you'll find that respect for the ARF's historical role. For fighting against the Ottomans. For creating a First Republic. You'll also find a great deal of disdain- for opposing the Karabakh movement. For lobbying against Armenia because the ARF had a grudge against LTP. For going into Karabakh and refusing to help arm villagers unless they became Tashnagtsagans. For being so condescending and assuming they know better than the locals. For politicizing the mourning of those who gave their lives in defense of Karabakh.
Fine, the ARF is in the arena. But, the ARF will never succeed here. This is a nationalist country with socialistic tendencies- presumably the ARF would just be able to plug and play here. But, the ARF has been unable to understand how the discourse of politics is played out here. Nobody here (on a political level) gives a damn about the Diaspora. They only care about making money off of us. The ARF has been unable to understand that the current strand of nationalism in Armenia is the product of Soviet nationalities policies- not something 'in the blood.' Thus, a nationalism cultivated by and sold to a Diaspora constituency cannot and will not take foot in this country. Hence the Hanrapedagans are able to move along.
Romantic statements or reminiscences are all fine and good- unfortunately they do not substitute for analysis.
And, I'm not advocating a political platform, but the ARF (or at least its followers on this page) need to come to grips with the realities of Soviet Armenia and why people here still have such a nostalgia for it. Firstly, the USSR was a superpower. Being part of a superpower means not only security, but also prestige. Secondly, you cannot ignore the economic benefits it gave to a country that has few natural resources. Thirdly, it built everything here- universities (which were, according to a number of people, worse off now), governing structures, houses, plumbing, electrical grids, etc. Fourth, there was not only security of life- but also security of job, finances, your family's future.
So, next time you hear someone in their forties or fifties recalling the 'good ol days', understand why. Also understand why they get sick of condescending Diaspora Armenians coming in and telling them 'how much better off' they are now.
gouzeyi aytselel serbian paits ge medadzeyi yete bidi garenam poker hayasdanme shinel im harazad haeroves pavaganer ge pendreyi hayer yev cheyi kednar paits vertchabes ke yev at houysovem vor bidi hantebim hayoume vor gertsken verej ge hosi ourakh menank hay menank mayr lezoun chi moranank
Bedros Effendi, the fact of the matter is Ankara was forced to seek normal relations with Armenia as a result of the Russian-Georgian war in the summer of 2008. Had Georgia suceeded in its war against Russia landlocked Armenia would have been further isolated and become totally insignificant. Since Russia defeated the Western/Turkish/Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi Ankara has had to play to Moscow's tune. What's at stake for Ankara is its multi-billion dollar trade with Moscow not to mention its dependency on Russian energy. Armenia is simply attemtping to cash in on this unique opportunity.
Tackling a subject such as the performance of the diasporan leadership can lead one easily into oversimplifications and generalization. There is no doublt that the Genocide( and the lack of remorse from the perpetrator) has had a dominating effect on the community....both negative and positive.
While it is true that it has driven a "single issue" mentality amongst Armenians and their organizations,it has also had a unifying effect with succeeding generations. In an atmosphere where assimilation is a constant concern , it has brought people together. It has motivated education, scholarship and activism. Yes , we carry the heavy and sad burden of a horrific crime, but many Armenians, born two and three generations in the diaspora, have been inspired to carry on in the name of their grandparents and for future generations.
The political parties played a very important role in this country establishing the infrastructure
that has nutured our identity. Clearly, the most dominant of the diasporan political parties has been the ARF. In the 1930's through the 1960's, these group focused their efforts mostly inwardto establisha"community". They helped to build churches, clubs,cultural organizations; all of which provided the succeeding generations with vehicle to build their connection to thier heritage.
One of the limitations with the parties in the diaspora, as I see it, is the impact of our institutional
schism.The ARF appeals to those historicallyaffiliated with it or as supporters(hamagirs). It is clearly
the strongest, but really how many people from the AGBUor the Diocese support the ARF and its
activities. Likewise you don't see a lot of Prelacy affilated at Camp Nubar. Granted and thankfully there are many exceptions, but my point is that the institutionalization influences your participation.
This is especially tragic since the independence of Armenia and resulting expansion of the political parties. Whereas in the past, positions were driven by the 1933 division and the 1957 affiliation with the Cilician See,today the platforms now are more international and focused on global
Armenian issues. Look at the improvement in the ANCA over the last 20 years.It is an effective lobbying group with the traditional grass roots capabilityof the ARF. But are we all listening when the ARF or the AAA comes forward with programs or do we lineup with our traditional "side".
In order for the political parties and advocacy groups to be effective in the diaspora on pan-Armenian issues, they need to connect with people and their needs. Likewise, the people need to make informed and open decisions.It's a new day. The diaspora has a role to play(despite the reception from the protocol dialogue). We must forget our past tensions and support the issues and those who lead them. I respect the ARF for providing a vehicle for activist expression.
We have been living in a sandboxwith this split for the last 70 years. Aside from the ackwardness of being represented by two of everything(two bishops,two lobbyists, sometimes two public postions....... i.e. ARF activism on the protocols and AAA wait and see) the split has been mostly absorbed internally. Well those days are over. We need to subordinate to the whole community.
Reconcile with your brothers and sisters, educate yourself and be active!!!! And let us thank God that we have the opportunity to debate and act!!!!!
MOMENT OF TRUTH!
Let's put teeth in the Protocols/Historical Commission by imposing the rule of binding arbitration., i.e., as it stands now the resolution of said commission is a recommendation only. If it became a binding decision on both countries, it would settle the issue once and for all. It seems only fair, since Turkey insists on the pre-condition to the Commission of removal of Armenian forces from Nagorno Karabakh, for Armenia to insist on a pre-condition of making the decision of Genocide or no Genoocide binding on both countries rather than a recommendation only. Also there should be a firm timetable for this commission to reach a decision because otherwise it becomes an endless exercise to stifle US congressional resolutions and other international recognition attempts. Also the issue of recognition of the border between both countries is obviously an attempt (a precedent) to prevent future Armenian claims to ancestral Armenian Anatolia, and as such should be removed from the Commission agenda.
I believe it was very short sighted for Armenia to limit its Commission participants to its own citizens and none from the Diaspora with its wealth of expert academics /historians. I hope this does not just pit the archives of Turkey against those of Armenia, but should include the US archives/ reports of then Ambassador to Turkey, Morganthau as well as the archives of other countries.
Left unsaid is how will this Commission render its decision, since its members come from both countries?
I predict a prolonged (years?) session ending with a statement that " both sides suffered casualties as a result of wartime conditions/decisions" with no mention of Genocide.
Well, here we have it.
No need to apologize for the murder of dozens of Turkish diplomats and their families, since the attitude of their government left no choice for the rightous Armenians...
Obviously it is possible for the crowd here to rationalize indiscriminant killing of innocents and noncombatants. It is perfectly acceptable and natural it seems as long as the mass graves are filled with Turkish or Muslim bodies as in Cyprus, or Karabag and all over Balkans and Middle East and Caucuses.
There is little else to argue.
Hye Patil, I, as the first born of both parents who miraculously survived the Genocide of the Armenian nation, I have been witness to the advances of the ARF worldwide, the years of efforts by those upon whose backs we have advanced, an insignificant ethnic group speaking out for Genocides, against the powers that be - politically - the State Department, the White House, leaders who in Congress were 'paid off' by the Turks, the military, oil interests and many more, I resent your use of the word 'groveling' for all the efforts that have brought the Armenians and their Genocide to the world stage- not allowing it to fade and disappear - (as Turks were hoping) and to the point where Turkey is taking desparate measures today. Just the foundation of the ANCA - across America - no small feat! And you put down the grassroots - to this day - who recognize all the efforts of our survivors, theirchildren, grandchildren, great-grandchildren who today come together, as Armenians, in their own beliefs to accomplish the Turkish guilt, to accomplish the reparations due our people. Do you know what you are saying? Do you know what you are asking the Armenians to cast aside? I can't believe you are Armenian! Manooshag
The canadian historical magazine the Beaver will be doing a piece on my ancestor Catherine Bell Fraser, it will be either the February or March issue.
May I ask where I might be able to read or obtain a copy of "The Remarkable Catherine Fraser (1869-99)” (The Armenian Observer, April, 25, 1979).
Mr. Aram Chorebanian, JD, the issue will not be settled as long as all interested parties are not joined, including Armenian Diaspora. The real party in interest is Armenian Diaspora which is outcome of Armenian Genocide.
I would like to know your opinion on Wilsonian Arbitration Award as to International law. It seem to me that Armenian could argue based on the provisions of protocols calling boarders should be recognized according to international law. I belive Wilsonian Arbitration Award is part of international law.
Papken Hartunian, JD
Avetis, so long as you want to fall into 'common sense' thinking you'll continue to miss the larger picture. Given that Russia is resurgent and being reassertive in the region, if we follow your logic Turkey would be moving to strengthen its ties even more with Azerbaijan and with Georgia as well, in order to counter Russian influence- they would necessarily be anti-Armenian, therefore, as Armenia is basically under Russia's thumb in a number of ways. In other words, your simple analysis fails to explain anything.
If we actually take a step back and look at the context of recent developments, being particularly cognizant of Ankara's recent politics (domestically and internationally) we see something different. As a counter to rising nationalism championed by the CHP, Erdogan's AK Partisi has been trying to (1) gain entry to Europe, and (2) become a more powerful country in the region. Thus, we see rapprochement with Syria, Turkey becoming involved in peace-keeping missions in Lebanon, and even taking diplomatic swipes at Israel. Cyprus is being resolved, and relations with Greece are at an all-time high, according to many. (3) Erdogan is the most serious mainstream Turkish politician when it comes to the Kurdish issue in Turkey. So, it is against this backdrop, that a political party with political capital is trying to normalize relations with Armenia.
If France, the whole European Parliament, Russia and the Vatican recognized this as a genocide, and Obama himself once upon a time together with many States of the United States, how come this process it so slow ? Managing the economical & strategic interests does not mean being afraid of Ankara ... Ankara knows European Parliament recognized this resolution, and still wants to join EC ... So what are you Americans that much doubting ?
Why aren't you answering any of these questions? ,
To Murat:
We are ready to apologise for the few innocent diplomats.But don't you think that before we apologise your government should first accept that the ottomans committed a Genocide against us?
Your 200 plus prominent intellectuals publicly apologised.Now, are these people out of their minds?
You go & ask your older generations if they know anything about the Genocide & the killings or not.So many of my Turkish & Kurdish friends have told me that their grandfathers have told them about the atrocities committed against the Armenians.This is a very well known fact in Turkey but the notorious article 301... & all is hush hush.
I remind you of sumgait & baku massacres.Also I remind you of the Greeks' mass graves in Cyprus committed by a current turkish member of parliament.Current turk generations are in shock & have an issue with accepting the Genocide.For decades they've been brainwashed by the false information of their governments.
Have you read the above article of Eren Keskin?Is she a Turk or an Armenian?
Please go & read more(other than the usual turkish sources) & enlighten yourself.
To Avedis, Stepan and Bedros Efendi
In spanish we say "todos tenemos razon",i.e., we all have something reazanable,to that effect...this is what Javier Solana would say...
The political spectrum -at this juncture of time-is hot in the Caucasus and surrounding countries.Yes even Iran,to say the least.All want to make the most of it for their nation/states. So why not Armenia.In this Bedros is right.However he also overlooks that if tio(uncle) Russia intervenes ,it is for its own benefit not for our beautifull eyes. I have lived more in Europe to know that Russia is foremost a European nation/state and it pursues above all its own.Like the Gerogian affair showed.But when it comes to Armenia(the present Independent RA)they would not care a bit more if great Turkey had its say in the region and own(billion dollar deals9 regional superiority crave ,etc.
I always like to bring samples in order to make a point. Here goes:- When a few yeasrs ago RA owed only 120 million dollars to uncle Russia, they did not think twice before taking over the factory(s)for non payment,in Armenia. I was very much affected and in one of my discourses in L.A.´s Horizon T.V said it out loud and clear.."would it not have been appropriate for Russia-as appreciation, for 200/250,000 Armenian soldiers dying near Berlin walls ,viz. WWII, for the "Patriotic WAR") to forget about that debt and/or dedicate the factory to the veterans´s heirs -making it a shareholding concern?" -this amount just plain peanuts for Russia(resurgent now)? .Only one person called and told the T.V. program director in which I spoke near 3.5 years every 3-4 weeks-saying tell him(me that is) he should not order or dictate what Russia should do. I asked lady to call and tell him "the tape is there ,Gaytzag did not tell,dictate or order , He said(me i.e.)"Harmar cher lini..."The rmenian is like that always holding up,defending the Odar, unnecessarily, the powers(to be) .....
Same with the Anglo-Am side. In another discourse of mine, each lasted 10 minutes by the by I said "have you stopped to think what Huge CAPITAL,CASH MONEY, the second wave of Armenians(mainly from Middle East) brought to these shores.They came from their well established countries ,like Lebanon,Iran etc., -unlike the FIRST wave 100 yrs ago (shirtless) We brought in billions of dollars and the 80 -100 million dollars a year that uncle sam -after AAA and ARF beg for... allots to RA/Artsakh-------hardly the interest of that capital brought over by our compatriots to U.S. Canada,England,France shall I go on...One friend of mine now an ARF top guy -when I told this to him, he rightously added ,"gaytazg you forget the sweat we shed on these shores and taxes we paid TOO..".You see, I am not advocating racism or Nationalism but we HAVE TO THINK "A LA EUROPENAN", FIRST AND FOREMOST .....us,,OURSELVES, OUR PART OF THE DEAL...
We have not learnt that from turks,Persians and arabs,even though we have lived in those areas..even these peoiple think like the Euro -Americans..
As for what is happening there (in the Region) now ,we cannot but follow the line and nonetheless be ver ADAMANT IN OUR DEMAND FOR GENOCIDE RECOGNITION, for there lies the main issue and reparations -indeed-attached to it.I refrain to expose my thoughts as rgds NK Artsakh.I leave that to later discussions,when AT LEAST ONE CORRESPONDENING PERSON HERE, MERELY ADMITS THAT WHAT I write about re-organizing the Diaspor(s) opines affirmatively.Mind you I repeat I respect all our establishments-political parties.However, the 160 year old "Sahmanatrutyun" and other such are not in step with a Dynamic Diaspora that is there to be tackled to be mobilized around "Professional Colleagvues Associations".Let the present ,mentione d go on with theirs, but in my thesis all are admitted in these PCA´s -i.e. plural membership O.K. but no political propaganda allowed in the Associations that are to get the Huge collectivities going and then derive from them -establish rather, b y them , the "National Investment Trust Fund" in Geneva CH.Just to throw some light on what latter would serve for....
To loan finances only through Central babk of Armenia to small,middle size trades, plants(factories) etc., AS AGAINST MORTGAGED property or wahtever.Unlike the "All Armenia Fund" this is an investment fund -the planned one -and will earn for investors some 2/3 percent interest and the monetary experts of the FUND-to be created by our 5-6 magnates,like I wrote above-previous post- will invest in its turn in important governments Bonds-securities only, also charge the borrowers some 2-3 % only not what is being charged now in RA , like..... 14%...
Yes, we should take over and do that.The Diaspora(s) by the by can be devided in 3.The very old one-there to stay, the 50 year old one(come from Mid-east-questionable? since once the Investment Fund is there, WE CAN THEN ORGANIZE A REAL EXODUS ,or repatriation to RA-Artsakh with big finances-see in my web page details-The Moscow -Russia community will supervise that.My concept of an organzied Diaspora with a Supreme Council with 5 departments, for I believe in delegating to each ,according Geographic, demographic and suitability stance...please enter and read details in www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org.In short, THE DIASPORA MUST RE-ORGANIZE!!!!
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag Palandjian( image?,you ask for) Shantagizoum
Murat there is nothing to apologise for but as a human i do feel sorry for the families of the fallen diplomats it was a heavy price for them to pay for a denial policies of there goverement but just imagine you are talking about few families that payed the altimate price but us Armenians, murat, each and every family has a story of lost father, brother, mother, son, sister,uncle, on and on ,by otoman turks, You cant compare that to a handfull you lost,but again as Christians we are against any killings regardless , but you gave us no other choice. I truly say to you that I rader sit and drink cofe with you than having this argument, like my grandparent did in Adiaman with a lot of good turks. Remember we did not start this war and we did not ask for it as the goverment of turkie makes it sound, we where farmers minding in our business, My grandparents owened lands of Pear thats where we got the name (ARMOUD - IAN). Give back what is ours and lets live in peace.
Please Murat I'm sure you are smart dig deeper and find the truth and why not be one the ones whoe stand up for your people and say anough lies to your goverment because that how the healing will start between our to nations. Hopefuly will meet one day on my ancesters land and offer you a Pear.
Let me remind you my brothers and sisters, that after turkey and azerbajian "invested" (bought) in armenia and when russia is weak or not looking, turkish tanks and military will "protect" its citezens and investments in armenia. the scenario that transpired in cyprus 1974 may repeat itself in armenia. i have been reading many articles and failed to see anyone point this little part of turkish history. in 1974 there were "some" turkish families living in northern cyprus and while the greeks were having there internal squables it was an impetus for the turks to invade with an army to protect its citezens from the greeks. who ever thinks the cyprus issue is resolving is mistaken. the turks are there to stay. i fear that as we sell our lands to odars and borders open we will be putting the nails in the coffen.
So these inflated numbers of things that happened AFTER 1.5 Armenians were killed somehow justify all the hatred these people express? Sema and Murat - it is the guilty who are as defensive as you are. You may not have committed a crime, but you continue to defend it and deny it and protect the guilty. This is why you cry and scream here.
When they took all the Armenians in my grandmother's village, they put them in the church. Then they burned the church down with all of them in it. What do you think those farmers, villagers, women and children did?
My grandmother was hidden in the basement of a Turkish woman, a widow of a military officer. The soldiers could not come in. This is how she survived. Do you think this bold Turkish woman would be proud of you now? You cannot justify genocide. You are deluding yourself and adding to your own guilt and hysteria with denial.
correction: 1.5 MILLION.
Get the number through your head, Murat and Sema. 1.5 MILLION. Documented by the vast majority of genocide scholarship - not Armenian but worldwide body of historians and genocide scholars. How can you justify or defend it?
Papken I am with you..
We are the extension of the Armenian Nation.. I don't understand how our own president will exclude us from being involved.. without everyone on the same page, we will not be successful at anything.. especially matters that deal with Armenia, Armenians, and the Armenian Genocide.
Have to have a strong link... that is for sure..
Thanks
Gayane
Gaytzag:
Your website is not working, did you type the wrong url address?
Tabiiki, Murat. Ignore everything else I write and focus on 'just the diplomats.' Try responding to something more analytically rigorous so that we can see just how serious you are.
Gaytzag, I appreciate your attempt to find something reasonable and useful in everyone's position. Know, however, that it is only clear political theory and program, with its incumbent epistemologies, that can ever bring about anything substantive. So, while I appreciate your intervention, I must ultimately disagree with it.
Arek, the Cyprus invasion happened because the Greeks in Nicosia broke a treaty by trying to unite with Greece (Enosis). While there has certainly been immigration, there were far more than a "few Turkish families" in northern Cyprus as of 1974. The situation is actually quite comparable to Karabakh.
Gayane, are you a citizen of the Republic of Armenia? If not, please tell me who your president is.
Murat, you and the Armenian nationalists really deserve one another. Yes, Muslims have suffered. Yes, Turkey today is a nation of refugee Muslims cobbled together under Ataturkist nationalism. Yes, Armenian regular troops committed massacres of Turkish (mostly Alevi) villages. Yes, ASALA and JCAG killed ambassadors. Yes, Armenians committed massacres at Karadaghlu and Khojalu during the Karabakh War. These are all terrible things. Terrible things that any human, convinced of his membership in a group, is able to carry out.
That doesn't change the fact that the Genocide happened. Doesn't change the fact that Cyprus is occupied. Doesn't change the fact that Turkey stole the northern part of Syria. Doesn't change the fact that Turkey ethnically cleansed its western coast of the native Greek population. You see, your people are human, too.
Stop blaming the victim and look in the mirror. Put down the TTK and CHP propaganda. It is precisely that mentality that fosters the disgusting nationalism rampant in many political circles in Turkey today (mostly the CHP, MHP, certain sectors of the military, but also rubs off on the AK Partisi and, strangely enough, some of the old guard socialists).
Firstly I would like to apolagize ,again for my fst typing causing typographic errors..but the core of the my writ, I hope is comprehendible.
Next , to AR.In thius last post of my I don´t know how after www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org
a the next sentence´s (in) was attached to it ,thus making it unfuctionalbe...please try again.
Now in response to AREK´s post up above.You are DEAD RIGHT!!!!
Turks, according to my -may he rest in peace-from Erzeroum then work in Bolis-he always told us boys you don´t know the turk...When aggravated, or for no reason at all...their "KHERS" MEANING WRATH may flare up and God save people around them...
While we are here discussing issues that are being dealt with -well have it your way above above someone else´s post, not well planned or whatever re Protocols etc.,great Turkey may in any instant like AREK says ...border or no border..invade Armenia.Comes to mind when dozen or so yrs ago Ecevit (premier of Turkey) boasted, nay declared "we should enter Nakhijevan"...when the Russian general Shaposhnikov retorted..."you just dare..."But this has undergone an immense change .No Russian such generals on the scene now.Mainly biznis is the objective of all states now and Russians as someone mentioned above do billions of biz with great Turkey..would they care if that scenario -like the Cyprus one occurred in , or through Nakhijevan, or right across from Arax river...
That is why, we must be very carefull both in Homeland and in Diaspora dealing with this "Hresh".They are capable of anything..my other suggestion for solution of NK is such that would appease great Turkey..but I shall refrain from exposing it to the public now.It has been "suggested" to authorities in Yerevan,period. Tact ,is the requirement of the moment...
Compromise is good in any of its forms.Don´t be worried our Genocide Recognition issue is a National sacred one...but plan we must and get the Diaspora well re-organized and with a Huge National investment trust fund that a 100,000 strong colleagues associations members can invest in..
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Bedros Efendi, Much as I agree with a lot of what you say, do not put Armenian nationalists and a Genocide negationist Turk like this one called Murat in the same league. Armenian nationalists defended their homeland against the Turkish onslaught, not justifying a Genocide campaign like this Turk is doing here. No Armenian nationalist can be compared to those who deny and justify the Genocide. We are all human, it's true, but as it happens, of all our neighbors, the only one to carry out systematic genocides has been Turkey and their kin in Azerbaijan: not Iran, nor Russia, nor Georgia, and neither of the latter lacked the means to carry it out had they wished to.
To Bedros:
Like I said many times.. i was born and raised in Armenia.. so REGARDLESS WHERE I AM.. i am connected to my country.. and if we provide financial aid and other aid to ARmenia.. the Armenian President can't leave those of us in Diaspora out like anter shner..
I consider Obama and Sarkissyan good human beings and i am sure they are great people.. but I don't consider them great or strong leaders.. not to disrespect their hard work and intellect but at times I doubt they have either.. and why i think that? ....... they sure did work hard to destroy what we worked for years and years and showed high intellect for basically falling into the Turk's claws and instead of fighting what is right they went after their own benefits.. very smart....
Not sure if your question was directed to me in order to be critical, to prove something or just act like a smarty pants.. but in any case.. Mr. Efendi.. that is my belief and my opinion..
Thank you and have a great day
G
Bedros Efendi, you say:
"Yes, Muslims have suffered. Yes, Turkey today is a nation of refugee Muslims cobbled together under Ataturkist nationalism. Yes, Armenian regular troops committed massacres of Turkish (mostly Alevi) villages. Yes, ASALA and JCAG killed ambassadors. Yes, Armenians committed massacres at Karadaghlu and Khojalu during the Karabakh War. These are all terrible things. "
I can understand the ignorants who cant tell the difference between Bitlis and Tiblisi, because they do not know any better and never been allowed to learn, but someone like you, who knows where I come from, who still acts as if he does not know any better... well, that is just scary and sinister and just leaves no room for hope and forgiveness and reconiliation of any kind.
"That doesn’t change the fact that the Genocide happened."
If it had happened, you would not be here.
"Doesn’t change the fact that Cyprus is occupied."
How is this related? Turkish army stopped a real genocide. Mass graves were full of Turkish Cypriots, not Greeks. What kind of occupation is this when 70% is in the hands of Greeks who are in EU now? I do not see any Turkish flags there. Turkey was a legal guardian of Cyprus constitution, was Armenia legal guardian of Karabag for example? TRNC submitted to UN plan and solutions, Greeks did not. Parallels are tempting but you know better.
"Doesn’t change the fact that Turkey stole the northern part of Syria."
Stole? Is it a loaf of bread? How is this related? There was a UN sponsored plebicite. Not a single bullet fired, not a single tank rolled... One can say Syria was stolen from Turkey too...
"Doesn’t change the fact that Turkey ethnically cleansed its western coast of the native Greek population."
This is partly true. Except that Turks did not really ethnically cleansed Greeks, but they did ethncially cleansed Armenians. Most of the Greek population left with the withdrawing and beaten Greek Army. Their behaviour towards their countrymen under Greek occupation left them with no choice. Similar to Armenians. Many remaining Greeks on the hand were exchanged with hundreds of thousands of Turks "ethnically cleansed" from Balkans, Greece and Islands.
My mothers side was "ethnically cleansed" from Crete for example... I know, you folks do not count them.
Best of all though, and I have seen this rather twisted logic often in these circles, is that you refuse to establish any causality between what Armenians and their revolutionaries have done between 1890-1918 and what Ottomans have done in return. These were not totally independen phenomena.
Countless Armenian revolts, falling of major Eastern provinces to Russians and Armenians, insurgency, Armenian terrorism, close collaboration with old Ottoman enemy Czar, handy work of Armenian Legion, Greater Armenia promotion, all in the middle of a life and death struggle of WWI , is related directly to the extreme measures Ottomans took of course!
I am sure you do not think one action deserves another, that is ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia, but then again you people also think killing "a few" diplomats was justified too...
Janine,
Sometimes it is best not to shout one's ignorance from roof tops.
Total Armenian population on the eve of WWI in the whole of Ottoman Empire was between 1.1-1.25M. This is from actual population census and Church and tax records.
Now, it is known that WWI created close to 300-400K Armenian refugees in Russian Armenia, evacuating the Estern provinces of Ottoman Anatolia. Russian, Armenian, UK and Red Cross records back this up.
A low estimate of the total Armenian refugees forcibly moved to Syria and Lebanon is near 300K probably.
This does not include many more who fled the country with their own means through Eastern ports.
Can you do the math? Don't get me wrong, huge numbers of civilians suffered and died of course, but I wanted you to get at least one fact right in your head. It comes in real handy when throwing facts and figures around on these boards.
Janine you say:
"My grandmother was hidden in the basement of a Turkish woman, a widow of a military officer. The soldiers could not come in. This is how she survived. Do you think this bold Turkish woman would be proud of you now? You cannot justify genocide. You are deluding yourself and adding to your own guilt and hysteria with denial."
Your grandmother was lucky I guess. My grandfather's whole family and most of the population of Bitlis (birth place of Saroyan, NOT Tiblisi!) was cut down when Armenians took it in 1916. His five sisters and other relatives were not marched, relocated, or thrown out. They were butchered on the spot. Details are too gory and not necessary. Only reason my grandfather survived the massacre was becasue he was away, busy spilling his blood (and of others) in Gallipoli and Palestine . Similar fate fell on cities of Kars, Van, Mus, Erzincan and others.
You are right, genocide can never be justified, and no, I do not have the slightest feeling of guilt. I hope you understand.
Those who articulate a vision for the Armenian nation with the plans to implement it; will receive the support of the electorate. I believe that the ARF has been very effective as a loyal opposition party in Armenia and the diaspora. The behavior of the government has enabled this opportunity.
Armenia needs a populist movement to reconnect the general population with its government.
This is a good start. State a vision for the nation. If our people continue to feel separated, then the
mistrust that ensues will dramaticallyslow the democratization of Armenia.
In this recent example of the protocol opposition, the ARF has attempted to give voices to those who have been silenced(or ignored). In the U.S.,I feel like the ARF was much more in tune with the feelings of the general public than the AAA. The ARF competes for mindshare in both the diaspora and Armenia. This has the potential of being a large unifying factor in their attempt to bring new focus to the political process. This type of check and balance is necessary for the maturation of the democratic system. This is an area where the diaspora can help Armenia; if the latter views it in the spirit of brotherly love and the former offers it in that manner. The ARF has a long history of defending the rights of the citizens. The organization was founded out of a need to provide hope and practical support. The schism in our community( political , church administration) causes many of us in the diaspora to judge a proposal within our community based on what group is proposing.
The stakes are much higher now. This is no longer an intra-community squabble. The future of our ancient nation is at stake. Let's get vested in these historic events by educating ourselves and listening to each other.
To Ayse Senay, Please read your history books. Stalin under the Soviet Union in 1921 took three parcels of Armenian Territory and gave one parcel which was the Javakh Region to Georgia, two other parcels which are Nakhichevan and Karabagh (Artsakh) was given to the Azeri's. These territories have been populated by Armenians for over three thousand years. Also, the Kars Treaty, gave Kars & Ardahan to Turkey under that agreement. Those territories were never agreed to by any free Armenian Government, therefore was illegal & must be returned to the Armenian Nation. The Sevres Treaty is also a valid treaty since Turkey & Armenia along with 16 other nations signed that treaty in August of 1920, but Kemalist Turkey & Lenin whom Sovietized Russia both destroyed and split Armenia up by the two illegal nations while the Allies stood idly by. Armenians lost 2 million Armenians by the Turks and another million removed from their ancestrial homeland. Millions of Armenians have been moslemized by the Turks over the centuries. You, Ayse should look back to see what your original ancestry is. Their is no such thing as a pure Mongol, Seljuk, Ottoman Turk today, you are all mixed with the blood of the people the Turks conquered. Wake up my brother.
I highly support the protocol and I believe the dialogue and understanding between the two nations without condition.
1-I believe Turkish government should apologize for the innocent Armenians who have killed during war. I also believe that the Republic of Armenia should apologize for the killing of innocent Turkish and Kurdish people especially by dashnak terrorists during last days of Ottoman Empire!!!!! Do not forget the innocent Turkish diplomats who were killed by ASALA terrorists”. Do not forget, many Azerbaijan people had been killed and more than a million had been displaced during the NK war. However, I am deeply sorry for the murder of Hrant Dink. It is a shame.
2-Turkish government will NEVER EVER EVER accept “Armenian genocide”. Possible US recognition of the “Armenian Genocide” does not change the Turkish government policy (after Turkish-Armenian protocol approval by the both countries parliaments, there will be no “Armenian Genocide” resolution in the US..This is the real reason of the “STOP THE PROTOCOL” campaign by Armenian diaspora… ANCA will become useless!!! ). Many countries have recognized the “Armenian Genocide” but Turkish policy did not change. By the way Swedish parliament has rejected the “genocide” resolution. The Swedish people are “Genocide deniers”!!!!
3-Do not expect any land from Turkey. This requires WAR. How realistic is it?
The Government of the Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia has recognized the current border (Kars Treaty). Askanaz Mravian (People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia and Poghos Makintsian, People's Commissar for Internal Affairs of Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia) have signed the treaty. Since the collapse of USSR, the governments of Turkey, Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan have all accepted the Kars treaty. Armenian Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanyan has reaffirmed Armenia's recognition of the treaty.
Armenian people must live with their neighbors in Peace. STOP claiming land from Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Republic of Armenia is bankrupt and poor Armenians are 100% dependent to Russia. I also want to stress that Republic of Armenia can not live under Russian umbrella forever!!!!!.
Many diaspora Armenians have fixed with genocide idea - like psychosis!!!.
Armenian diaspora need to be realistic!!!
Wake up from dream, break your shell and GET OVER!!!!!!
P.S.: I am sorry for using harsh words
Sema, I feel sorry for your interpretation of what happened to the Armenian People under Turkish rule in 1915-1923. Your Turkish government after the 1st WW found guilty the perpertraitors of the Armenian Genocide, which was Talaat Pasha, Enver, & Jemal Pasha. These are well documented in the Turkish archives & the archives around the world. Go back and read the newspapers during that war and read the thousands of articles in those papers on the atrocities the Turks & Kurds committed against the helpless Armenian People. My mother came from a small village in the Provence of Erzerum & the whole village was sent out on a death march. My mother was married & had two children. They bayoneted one in front of her & the other went 13 days with no food and died. She lost her husband, father & mother, and all her relatives. She was the only survivor from her village. My father, whom escaped the Turkish Army, whom came from the Provence of Shabin KaraHissar, later found out that the Turks had killed his Wife & 3 children, along with his father & mother & many relatives. Sema, you yourself are not a pure Turk, since the Mongol, Seljuk, & Ottoman Turks conquered Asia Minor, they over the centuries moslemized millions of Christian Armenians, Greeeks, Assyrians, Nestorians, etc. The atrocities they committed can never be forgiven. If Armenians killed any Turks, it was revenge for what the Turks did to the Armenian People. It is time for Turks to wake up and stop listening to the false propaganda that the Turkish Government is feeding to its people. Stephen T. Dulgarian
Avo, Azerbaijan did not commit genocide. Let's not cheapen the term. While Armenian nationalists may have, at times, defended the country, they are still the champions of an intellectually-bankrupt ideology that stifles our cultural development and becomes a code of sorts for stunting any type of growth and nipping criticism in the bud. Moreover, the point that I was trying to get at with Murat is that Armenian nationalists are generally just as ignorant or dismissive of Turkish suffering as Turkish nationalists are of Armenian suffering. Similarly, they justify it- listen to how most Armenians try to explain away the massacres of Azeris during the Karabakh war. It's the same mechanism by which Turks deny the Genocide. There are, of course, many differences- but the main point is the same.
take care
Gayane,
I think Obama is a good leader, Serjik not so much. Nor do I really think Serjik is all that great a person, but being a great person isn't necessarily a quality I would have wanted in an interior minister...
Firstly, I asked what country you were a citizen of because I'm sick of most Diaspora Armenians (and I say this as a self-critical spiurkahay married to a Hayastantsi) thinking that they have some right to ownership over the Republic of Armenia- even though none of them (save for 8 members of ASALA, 2 Tashnaktsagans, and 2 independents) served in Karabakh, none of them have ever had to shower krushkayov, etc. So yes, I was being critical, but not necessarily directed at you per se, just an overarching mentality.
Secondly, I understand the strong reaction of Diaspora Armenians to the Protocols. But I fail to see how they have destroyed what the Diaspora has worked for. Really, what has the Diaspora accomplished? We've pursued this policy of international recognition not knowing what or how it was to be successful. I think that many of the rank-and-file actually believe 'we' will get the Armenian vilayets back. It's fantasy. That's all. So, I can't fault the Armenian leadership for being pragmatic and showing that they actually paid attention during IR 101. At the end of the day an open border with Turkey will be of far greater economic benefit to Armenia than any kind of Diaspora funding.
Take care.
To Bedros Efendi:
Mr. Sargisian and his govenment has been taken hostage by Russia, USA and EU. Evidence, just look at the picture who were present during gning proptocols. This is a real example of a picture speaks more than thousand words. Furthermore, everybody knows that Secratary State of USA has kidnapped Mr. Nalbandian and has held him three and half hours hostage until he agreed to sign and then he was released. All these proves one thing that today Armenia has reached to the point that all world must come together and fight against Armenia to accomplish their financial gain succking petrol from East to WEST.
Gayane and most of 7 millions of other Armenians have been forced from their homeland and survived in Diaspora. As a good citizen of their country most of them became citizen of thei country and all respect their leaders till theie leaders do not lie to them. Example, all world knows that
Mr. Obama has promised several time that he will speak the truth and will recognize Armenian Genocide. I did not belived him then and wrote my opinion on it in adavnce. Of course, recogniciaon of Armenian Genocide by Obama does not bring any new and tangiable thing on the table because United Nation has recognized Armenian Genocide. The problem is that Armenias are taken poltical path rather than taken legal path to force USA to declare Armenian Genocide as such.
Being citizen of a country is a matter of choice. However, being member of a nation is not.
Our real happiness and force comes from our homeland not from US dollars. We feel we owe to our homeland roaylty because we have enjoyed her existence and have been proved of it all our life. Therefore, we have to keep it and delivere it to the next generation as much more powerful nation.
Gayane and 7 millions of other Armenians have right to change their citizenship and become citizen of their own homeland at any time, if situation in Armenia becomes much better than anywhere in the world which is very possible because we are qualified.
Now, Mr. Efendi, if you are naturalized citizen of a country, I am sure you have been asked million times "where are you from?". My final answer to this question has been "I am from my mother?"
No one could have a normal life outside of her or his culture.
Long Live Armenia and Armenian!
Papken Hartunian
Karekin wrote:
Has anyone considered that maybe, just maybe, the Turks actually WANT an impartial group, or someone other than somewhat biased Armenians, to educate and even convince them of their own guilt? They know the Turkish public will not believe Armenians, so by inviting scholars who are unconnected, but fully knowledgable of this specific history episode, to the table, the facts can be aired without blaming the Armenians for partisanship
Karekin, this possibility does not exist because of the fact that the vast majority of academic scholarship - NON-Armenian - has spoken on this issue. It is complete and exhaustive. The International Association of Genocide Scholars, and historians universally endorse the research that conclusively shows this was genocide. I am talking about academics, now, not politicians, not hand-picked "yes-men" but people who are employed in universities as historians and in the field of genocide expertise. Even people who once defended the Turkish side now say they were misled. Academically speaking, in the circles of the universities and scholarship, this issue is overwhelmingly decided.
The only people who reject these findings are the official Turkish government. Those who are paid to support it are alone in opposing voices and the need for some commission outside of the scholarship that has already spoken. See TARC and the International Center for Transitional Justice report.
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Turkish_Armenian_Reconciliation_Commission
The situation is actually quite comparable to Karabakh.
No this is not true. What has happened after the Turkish occupation is that the Turkish Cypriot population has left because the rule of Turkey has been without democracy for them at all. Instead, Turkey has brought population from the mainland to settle. What you can compare to is settlement and occupation. The Turkish Cypriot population has been brutally oppressed under Turkish rule and all democratic institutions were squashed. The intellectuals among this community have protested but sadly they are the ones who have left.
Mr. Hartunian, you're more than welcome to believe conspiracies.
Per Karekin's post, there is some truth to it. However, Turkish political discourse (not unlike our own) is so damned nationalistic that anyone 'accusing' the Turks of genocide is almost immediately tarred, feathered, and thrown into disrepute. They instead trot out the same-old same-old 'impartial scholars' (Heath Lowry, a late medievalist who doesn't study the 19th Century, Bernard Lewis whose political motivations and dedication to modernization theory are things of legend, and Justin McCarthy who is a walking bufoon and actually believe Yusuf Halacoglu is a sound scholar) and ramp up the story of 'Armenian propaganda,' arguing that everyone else has fallen prey to it. This just reinforces the 'blame the victim' strain of thought that is ever so pronounced in their popular media.
We're better off just letting things in Turkey run their own course. Practically every serious scholar at Istanbul's major universities (Bogazici, Sabanci, and to a lesser extent Koc) have, if not accepted the Genocide as fact, at least come to grips with the fact that the official story christened in the Nutuk is a bunch of crap. If Armenians actually read the Turkish press they'd be plenty aware of the growing democratization movement in Turkey. Organizing their own conferences, fighting Article 301 on their own, etc. is the best chance for Turkish recognition. Otherwise we just complicate the picture. Understandably difficult for us, but the best course nonetheless.
I know many people who have traveled to Northern Cyprus; I almost went myself but the times didn't match up when I was in Turkey most recently. So, beyond following the news and reading voraciously, I have some more intimate knowledge of the situation. As I have stated elsewhere, Turkey has engaged in a fairly ambitious settlement program, and it subsidizes everything on the northern third of the island. But the majority, overwhelmingly, are native Cypriots. As it relates to the rule of international law, peace settlement issues, I fail to see at all how you have countered my claim.
I hope this time it succeeeds. Really.
I can not wait for this resolution to pass the parliaments of all nations and be over with finally.
It would be curious to see what other raison d'être the industry that has grown around this topic will invent to further milk the emotions and to maintain a false sense of nationhood.
The Turks are playing a desparate game based on a foundation of generational denial.Every time they make a public statement, their duplicity on this issue is visable. I am happy that this resolution has been introduced; not simply for our cause of justice,but because it will draw the Turks into a public debate they can not win. Let neutral observers witness the shallow veneer of their softer side( we want to "normalize" relations and "study" history); while the deceitful tactics of the past and present emerge in their continued denial campaign.This may even increase our co-sponsor listing. The downside is that some politicians may say to wait given the protocol process. These politicians advocate the, "I share your pain, but it's just not the right time" are the same who have created excuses for years( NATO ally, Iraq war, anit-Soviet buffer) and they will continue this position.We're fighting for the neutral or uncommitted as well as maintaining our base.
The one thing that we have going for us is that the Turks have painted themselves in a corner based on their numerous public contraditions. Obviously their position power allows them to get a pass on manyof these comments. The question is when will the patience of the U.S. be broken( ratifying problem in the Turkish Parliament? territorial demands on Karabagh?) or will Russia play its card based on tensions with the West(Georgia, missle shields, etc.).We have to have hope in the larger picture. The Genocide resolution is no longer an isolated event seeking support from the U.S. government. It is now one variable in a larger equation. May God Bless our continued quest for justice!
Murat, ultimately you are trapped by the intellectually confines imposed by your nationalism in so much as you paint with the broad strokes necessitated by a maximalist ideology. As I've stated before, so long as you continue to paint Armenians as a monolith, from which you have not deviated, and place into a pseudo-Darwinian social framework, you can always explain things away with the rhetoric of existential threats. And if you read Turkish historiography (and again, not by the morons in the TTK, but by people trained at reputable institutions like Bogazici and Sabanci), you'll see how current Turkish nationalist thought, the foundational myths of the Republic, and the discursive structure into which your statements fit, is the almost unabated continuation of CUP thought (particularly Gokalp, but also prevalent in the works of Omer Seyfettin <re-read Bomba if you get the chance>).
Firstly we must consider the role of the Armenian revolutionaries, whose activities and mere existence are used by successive generations of pseudo-scholars and apologists to explain away genocide. They were part of the government. They worked with the CUP, closely until 1913. As someone who studies their press, I have never once come across the idea of 'Greater Armenia.' This is in fact, if anything, the recent brainstorm of Diaspora nationalists. Only the Hnchaks even mentioned independence as a goal in their official party program, and they withdrew that following their own internal splits after 1896, and after accepting the Young Turk government in 1908. The Dashnaks (and it should be plenty clear I'm no fan of theirs) only mentioned the word 'freedom' (azatutiun) in their party program- freedom of work, freedom of worship, freedom of thought. As progressives, it comes as no surprise that they found common cause with the Young Turks, particularly Prince Sabahedin's faction.
The problem is Turkish historiography and official discourse conflates these Armenians with the 'komitacis' of the Balkans- thus the ever-present existential threat looms even larger in present discourse. Moreover there is the problem of anachronistically reading the Turkish state (devlet) backwards into history and ignoring the imperial context. Thus, the rebellions (and they were FAR from repeated) are viewed as national struggles to tear apart the country (similar to how the Kurds are treated in public discourse); they were not. The rebellions at places like Zeitun were the attempts of semi-independent regions to resist state centralization. Thus, you also have the Kurds of Dersim repeatedly trying to push out the centralizing state in the 19th century. You have examples of Turkish derebeys also resisting, either killing officials sent by Istanbul or just ignoring them.
Moreover, if you actually get into the Basbakanlik Archives you find that the Armenian millet REQUESTED the presence of the military to protect the Armenians against Kurds and Turcoman tribes. This doesn't sound like a revolutionary people to me.
Also, because the state was never able to fully centralize its Anatolian periphery, how the hell could you ever expect one political party (with a socialistic message!) to mobilize peasants (the most conservative aspect of any society)? It's a sheer impossibility from a management perspective. And simply reinforces my argument that the idea of an Armenian rebellion or revolution is nothing more than a myth.
Finally, on this point, if you're going to paint with broad strokes and see Armenians as a monolith, you'll continue to miss the point. Armenians serving in the Russian Empire did commit massacres- of this there is no doubt. Those same forces ethnically-cleansed Tatar (present-day Azeri) villages in what was becoming the Republic of Armenia. But those were not the peasants of Eastern Anatolia. Nor could they have been.
Tangentially, this explains the formation of the Hamidiye Kurdish semi-regular forces.
Thus there is no need to link issues of causality between the revolutionaries and the central state's over the top actions. I'll return to that below.
Secondly, if we look at the recent theoretical scholarship on ethnic cleansing and genocide(cf. Heather Rae, James Ron, Norman Naimark, etc- and no, I don't consider Vahakn Dadrian an expert anyone should waste their time reading), we see a few things. Firstly, ethnically cleansing occurs mostly in places where the state feels insecure (goes back to what I was saying about Eastern Anatolia being a periphery that resisted the central state). This also explains, in part, why the Armenians of Istanbul were generally left alone.
But ethnic cleansing follows a certain logic. It generally involves the massacre of burning of a handful of villages, aimed at scaring the remaining population of a group to flee over a border. Where the state is secure (its capitals) it engages in invasive policing, but not massacres. Thus we see the difference in how Israel treats Gaza (invasive policing) versus southern Lebanon during the occupation (outright massacre). This explains what Armenians and Azeris did to one another. Massacre the Armenians in Sumgait, the Armenians in Kirovabad and Baku leave for Yerevan; massacre the Azeris in a few villages in Karabakh, the rest flee across the battle lines to Azerbaijan.
It's a kind of controlled chaos; minimal effort, maximum results. But that's not what happened to the Armenians. Had it been straight-forward ethnic cleansing it would have involved the massacres of a few villages in Harput, a few in Sivas, a few more in Van, and that would have convinced the Armenians to flee to the Caucasus. What did Talat and Ever do? They forcibly moved the Armenians to Syria. Instead of creating refugee problem for the Russian Army to deal with, they put a 'potential threat' behind their own lines in the Levant. That makes no sense as far as ethnic cleansing is concerned- it makes sense if your intentions are more sinister, though. They were never supposed to reach the front lines where the Arabs were rebelling. And for the most part they didn't. What see is systematic, organized killing aimed at one group- genocide.
So, I think you get the main point. A few other random things related to what you wrote:
1)I fail to see how there's anything sinister in what I wrote or my mentality. You need to ground it instead of just stating it.
2) Armenian Legion was formed of refugees and active in Cilicia after the Genocide has mostly run its course- thus it doesn't fit into your provocation thesis.
3)You're right, Cyprus doesn't matter for our discussion. So why do you bring up Karabakh? As it is I support Turkey in Cyprus, and almost went to the TRNC when I was in Istanbul last. Hope to go next time. Per claims of a genocide- that's over the top. But I don't doubt that it would have been worse for the Turkish population under an Enosis government.
4)You can only say 'Syria' was stolen from Turkey if you equate the Turkish Republic with the Ottoman Empire, which goes back to the problem of thinking you can anachronistically impose the Turkish nation-state in history- which leads you to see any Armenian's activities as being a threat to state security. All nationalisms are paranoid in some way.
5) Yes, it is only partly true that Turkey ethnically cleansed its western coast. Much of it was due to the mutual (and mutually devastating) population exchange. That's why people in Izmir, Ayvalik, Balikesir, Altinova to a lesser extent, don't look like 'typical' Turks- they're Balkan Muslims.
But ultimately you miss my point. It's really not worth your while to hurl epithets at Armenians and play the victim card while ignoring the misery carried out in the name of the Turkish nation.
kendine iyi bak. bundan sonra cok yazma zaman olmayacak. sana cevap vermezsem, 'korktugumu' farzetme.
To Murat:
Census of Armenians in the Ottoman empire & not Church...please read the here below & you can verify it yourself:
1. These records were not a total count of population. Rather, they were based on what is known as “head of household”, that is the ages, occupation, and property of the male family members only were counted.
2.In 1844 the Ottoman recorded a total of 2.4 million non-Muslims (gayri müslim) within the Ottoman Empire
3.In 1867 this number remained the same. WHY?
4. The Turkish author Kâzım Kadri writes, “During the reign of Abdul Hamid we lowered the population figures of the Armenians...” He adds, “By the order of Abdul Hamid the number of the Armenians deliberately had been put in low figures.”[7]
5. Other evidence suggests such undercounts cut in half the actual Armenian population. In the district of Mus (compromising Mus plain, Sassoun, and the counties of Mus) for example, the Armenian official in charge of the census, Garabed Potigian, presented the official figures as 225,000 Armenians and 55,000 Turks. Upon the insistence of his Turkish superiors he was forced to reduce the Armenian population to 105,000 and increase the Turkish population to 95,000.
6. The Turkish historian Dr. Secil Akgun, claimed: “The Ottomans do not have a definite number. That is, we have in our hands contradictory numbers regarding the Armenian population within the borders of the Ottoman Empire. I would think that Basmacıyan gives the most accurate number. This is to be between two and three million.”
Today it is very easy to access all the above information...
Murat, if your stories are true then I feel your pain as it is the same story of mine where in Mush my grant aunt with her five children were burnt alive by the Turks & Kurds.
Please Murat for heaven's sake stop repeating the same turkish propaganda that we hear & read everywhere.Since you seem to be intellectual please widen your sources.
To Murat continuation of the census:
nother problem arises, and it is the fact that the Ottoman census statistics have maintained constant increase for the Armenian population from the period where between 1894-1897, an estimated 100,000 to 300,000 Armenians lost their lives during the Hamidian massacres. While the minimum in the range represent the Armenian increases of population over years, the 1905 census hasn't shown any anomaly of Armenian increases, which suggest that there might have been a fixed quota of Armenian population, and that regardless of the census, there were much more Armenians within the Empire.
Another element that add, is that many Armenians, like many Jews and Christians, were considered as foreigners, because they had foreign nationalities or enjoyed the protection of foreign consulates and those for were not counted in those census statistics.
Reanalysis of Armenian Patriarchate figures
Another set of Armenian Patriarchate figures figures were published in 1913. Armenian sources records for this statistic have more ground than the first one in that they are based on actual archival records. In 1992, Raymond H. Kevorkian and Paul B. Paboudjian have published a work which present “precision” to the last digit, for each Ottoman provinces from the Armenian archives. For the figure of the entire Ottoman population, those records indicate 1,914,620[17] closely matching with the Ottoman statistics for the Western part of the Ottoman, but diverge in the Eastern zone, where the Ottoman statistics are suspected to have considerably undercounted the Armenian population. And even in some instances, the actual Ottoman counts after McCarthys correction were higher in some regions than those statistics, indicating that those figures might have been possibly a serious records and might have under-counted Armenian's in some instances.
Figures by the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople[18]:
Vilayet Armenian population
Bitlis
218,404
Sebastia
204,472
Erzurum
202,391
Haleb
189,565
Istanbul
163,670
Ankara
135,869
Mamuret-ül-Aziz
124,289
Adana
119,414
Hüdavendigâr
118,992
Van
110,897
Diyarbakır
106,867
Trabzon
73,395
İzmit
61,675
Edirne
30,316
Aydın
21,145
Konya
20,738
Kastamonu
13,461
TOTAL
1,914,620
My point, ultimately (which I didn't articulate fully), is it's fruitless to come here and attack Armenian nationalism without attacking your own first. That goes for Murat (and esek Ali Pasha, especially) just as much as it does for most the Armenians here.
Betty~
Great story! Now my wife Jan wants a moose head too! We're in LA, just finishing a wonderful book tour in California. We have been treated like royalty.
I can not but help dwell on a few myths here (there are so many around this topic).
There is this myth among many here that Turks are brainwashed and do not know all the facts and thus they deny unpleasant truths about their history, blinded by nationalism.
As someone who is more than a bit informed and has seen both "sides", I can tell you that an average Turk has a better grip on the facts than an average Armenian. What many here can not grasp is that Turks are in general perfectly ok with the facts. Millions have died, all have family tragedies and stories, but for the most part it is history. Deeds are done, prices are paid, all suffered injustices and here we are.
The lack of "desired" reaction from Turks and their elected government is not because of lack of information or brainwashing, but they have simply moved on and as survivors of various ethnic cleansings and horrible designs themselves, surrounded by this blood thirst, they (a mjority anayways) do not feel the least bit of guilt or desire to go for a round two of WWI.
Also it should be noted that, in the wide spectrum of events and wars and tragedies Ottomans and their descendants lived through for two centuries, the Armenian tragedy is simply a large footnote. It simply does not have the centrality to an average Turk as it does to an Armenian for obvious reasons.
Contrary to the common rhetoric here, alleged genocide topic is very much discussed and argued, in public and in private in Turkey. There are conferences, books, seminars, speeches etc covering the whole spectrum of thoughts and opinions. In fact, it may be one of the few places in the civilized world one can even discuss the topic. Surely the nationalists do all in their power to discourage opposing views and abuse the existing laws to silence their opponents, but in the end, no single person in Turkey has been indicted or jailed or fined for claiming that it was genocide. There is no such specific law.
It is rather amazing and contemptful then that some here bring up the freedom of speech issues in Turkey without a single trace of irony, while in many "civilized" countries laws have been enacted, thanks to the efforts of diaspora, that muzzles ANY discussion of this topic! People have been actually jailed for contradicting the Armenian nationlistic view of their history!
One can list here, as some have done, a not so short list of people and notables in Turkey, who have supported the Armenian interpretation of the WWI events. There is surely a spectrum of ideas and opinions on the topic, as there should be, among millions of people of the country.
Such diversity of opinions is visibly lacking among Armenians I have noticed. How long would I survive in Armenia for example if I were to challenge the party line there? How many Armenian notables are there who support the established Turkish view? Why cant there be even one single eccentric? Is there a single academician or historian out there who has dared to challenge the Armenian myths and not abused, threatened and belittled for it?
On the other hand works of pseudo-scholar Armenians, or people with axes to grind and plain old demogouges have been paraded as "objective" analysis as long as they elaborated and extended Armenian myths. No one is critical of their objectivity though so many of the outright fabrications have been exposed. So much for honest search of truth.
What is of course scary and sad is that even among the Armenian intellectuals, who by defintion should be a bit more free thinkers and outside of the boxers, there is no divergence of opinion. Just imagine the common people. What Ottomans had to deal with a century ago becomes more clear.
Armenians have a very very long way to go before blaming others with being brainwashed and demanding apologies in my humble opinion.
I agree for the most part with Stepan. My first feeling is that Turkey is behaving really stupidly because every time we go through this all they do is generate more publicity to the event. However I wonder what is going on with lobbying: now that Wexler has resigned to head up some Middle East lobbying group I wonder if he's on board as with Hastert et al (another shameless bunch) as well as defense contractors.
No matter what it simply generates more HONEST studies and the attention always has wound up helping the truth as far as public awareness is concerned. We'll see what happens this time; the story is a little more complicated now. But their denials are just downright stupid in terms of wanting to bury the issue. The more genuine scholarship on the issue the better it is for us
Murat, your statistics are false even according to the Turkish records published this year which show a disappearance of about 1.5 million people over a few years. It is you who need to get your facts straight. Where are all the Armenians of Anatolia now? When did they disappear? Don't you have your hears of violence a little backward here, given that the anti-Turk violence you cite for years AFTER the Armenian genocide and death marches began? Shall we include all the Greeks and Assyrians of Pontus and Anatolia as well? Where are their descendants now in those regions?
I'm sorry but are there still Turks living in Kars, Van, Mus, Erzincan, Bitlis, etc? Oh gee, maybe there are. False claim, Murat. Stupid.
hears of violence = years of violence
Armenian diaspora need to be realistic!!!
It is the diaspora and the worldwide body of scholars as well as governments who have recognized the clear elements of genocide who are living in reality. It is Turkey's continual denial that is a deliberate delusion based on a terribly shaky sense of identity. Clearly, this is necesary to Turkey's identity: nobody fights their own guilt with such deliberate lying and hatred without an exceptionally weak identity. This is also the explanation for the continued justification of violence and brutality -- even to the loony point of citing incidents that happened AFTER the genocide as justification for brutality! Wow 37 diplomats killed by ASALA (I'm sorry was this some official agency representing all Armenians? nope) compared to 1.5 million murdered from 1915 onward? gong a little backwards there
Murat you should write to your government and tell them to stop paying so much money to lobbyists and threatening defense contractors to lobby for them. Too much bakshish in this problem. Then it will all be over with. Tell them not to spend your money so foolishly - you're right about that. It is dumb from every point of view.
Tell me, Bedros, which countries in the world have recognized the Turkish occupied Cyprus as a legitimate state? The people who still represent Turkish Cypriot population (not hand picked by Turkey) are even against occupation because it shut down all democratic institutions. how is that protecting them from a coup -- that failed anyway? This coup attempt was against Makarios, not the Turkish Cypriots. The whole thing is flimsy based on false pretext.
false sense of nationhood
Now that is funny - it seems there has been an Armenian identity long before there was a Turkish state and its continual presence in the world as a national identity for thousands of years. Pot meet kettle. It is ironic that there are so many echoes in these arguments. When does truth get a chance when denial is the sole object of exercise?
For those who defend Turks by any reason should be aware that their Sultan became Khalif, first by distotring their Qouron by deleting a requirement that all Khalives must be decendants of Mohmad.
At the end of the First World War, Arabs discovered this fraud and brought Ottoman Empire to its knees.
So, Mr. Efendi read your history and be familiar who are you?
By the way, according to the Webester's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language "Turk" means:
1. a native or inhabitant of "Turkey".
2. (formerly) a native or inhabitant of the ottoman Empire.
3. a Muslim, especially a subject of the Sultan of Turky.
4. a member of any of the peoples speaking Turkic language.
5. one of the breed of Turkish horses closely related to the Arabian horse.
6. any Turkish horse.
7. Informal, a cruel, brutal, and domineering man (emphasis added by Papken Hartunian).
One day justice will take "Republic" of Turkey a part as it did Soviet Union and others before it.
Papken Hartunian
I can't believe that history does not repeat. Armenians were having almost the same situation in pre-Genocide period. Turks today are a little more tricky than in those days. If You change U.S. with UK, You will be able to develop an identical story. Switch the lights on!
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
In order ARF to win the minds and hearts of all Armenians, it must accept its mistakes. Dr. Armen Ayvazyan knows what they are. The united Armenia with united Armenians must be expressly declared by ARF. The status of liberated tereritories must also be stated.
Long Live United Armenia with United Armenians.
Papken Hartunian
Yes, the coup was against Makarios. The coup was also intended to formally unite Greece and Cyprus, which would have been disastrous for the Turkish Cypriots- just like Azeri-controlled Karabakh would have been disastrous for the native Armenian population. And what does it matter who's recognized the TRNC? Again, I fail to see how you've addressed any of my points.
Bedros Efendi,
I am more than aware of the futility of engaging discussion on a board like this. It is not nationalism, or distant family hisotry of people I have never met, but the blatant abuse of facts that motivate me to say a few things, for the sole purpose of my own peace of mind, I have to confess.
I know we Turks are all (a borad stroke as you put it) brainwashed and make up stuff as our nationalistic agenda and ego dictates, so let me quote you a prominent Armenian leader, Boghos Nubar Pasa, someone who had risen to high levels of responsibility in the Ottoman government and then had the temerity to demand a seat at Lausanne accross the table from his own country, next to the colonial powers who had finally shred to pieces the remains of the Sick Man of Europe. Note that his father was a governor Egypt. In his appeal (in a NYT article) to the West for the creation of a greater Armenia from the remaining "Sirtlan Payi", he lists the accomplishments of Ottoman Armenians:
"The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed
The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed"
This can not be more clear, but I am sure it will not suffice...
It is useless trying to reason with negationist turks. They are too trapped in the narrow confines of their little minds as to comprehend why Armenians would revolt against the nauseating Ottoman regime. And Bedros Efendi (it may be meaningful that you would you use "efendi" for nickname in an Armenian website), I found it legitimate to classify the ethnic cleansing carried out by the Azeri turks in Sumgait, Baku and Artsakh as genocide. I respect that you disagree. As for the turk called Murat, I am sorry for your loss: you may realize that Bitlis, an Armenian city, is now in turkish hands. We lost our families to a systematic genocide and we also had our lands stolen by your people. It is truly a disgrace to have turks for neighbors. I hope it is as disgraceful for you to be living on stolen land. However small, if you have a conscience you may not find it easy to sleep on land taken after a mass murder, whose victims lay unburied all over Western Armenia, that portion of Armenia occupied now by turks. Hold on there. You think you will keep these lands forever. You never know.
Vartan and Janine, I stand by the facts and figures I have stated. Even taken approximately, it contradicts the often stated propaganda figures reaching up to 2.5M in some cases. Intention is not to minimize the scale of the tragedy. It is only an example, of the massive efforts to create alternate facts, or stretch existing ones. Like the quote from Hitler. It signifies the state of mind, where facts and figures are irrelevant and can not be an excuse for chipping away at the myths defining a national identity. Facts are no match to myths. Even I know as much.
Mothers of Armenia,
Political Parties of Armenia,
Military forces of Armenia!
This line leads to a new war in the region. Armenia-Azeri relationships are not a matter of politics. It is a vital question for the survival of these two nations. Politics is not immoral. Politics is amoral. We have to understand that the war will become hot again when all sides want that. Russian Federation wants Armenia-Azeri new military escalation because of tensions and failure in Chechnya, Kosovo, Abkhazia, and South Osetia and counter-American politics. The United States of America wants that because of war and failure in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan and couter-Russian Politics. Turkey wants that because of Cyprus, its bad geographical position and the chance to get rid of the Armenian Quest. Georgia wants that because they are Georgians and they have Sahakashvili. Only the Armenian and Azeri peoples do not want to fight again. The only solution for the peoples of Azerbaijan and Armenia is to keep the status quo until politically healthy forces in Armenia and Azerbaijan come to power.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Murat, you're right that most Armenians do not have a grasp of how things are changing in Turkey. The problem, though, is your contention that Turks support the 'Armenian interpretation' of events. Thus, you have once again limited the scope of the discussion to two competing national narratives. That is not the case. It is, however, textbook nationalism. Just like your comment 'What Ottomans had to deal with a century ago becomes more clear.' You cannot move beyond national categories, and so long as you deal in maxims you'll be able to explain anything and everything away.
And, Murat can, nobody has ever been jailed for saying there was not an Armenian Genocide. Fined, yes. Jailed, no. Which is wrong- just like Article 301 is wrong.
Ali Pasha, find a different braying ground, you don't belong here. Try around the ataturk mausoleum in ankara. If you find it hard to deal with Genocide guilt and living off land after a Genocide carried out by turkey, try to get it over with with some of the cheap raki mustafa kemal gulped down after having bad dreams. Just don't overdo it or you'll hatch ideas that may be as bad as his.
You all need to brush up on your Cypriot history. I'd recommend a quick wikipedia search. But to summarize, the right wing Junta who was in power in Greece imposed a coup on the government of Archbishop Makarios. The coup failed and within a short while the the Republic of Cyprus regained power. Unfortunately, the Turkish government used this as an excuse to invade Cyprus claiming the right wing Junta would harm Turkish Cypriots. Also, the peace treaty meant to give Cypriots their independence for England named Greece and Turkey as protectorate powers...thus Turkey argued it had the right to invade...this, however, does not justify why 30,000 Turkish troops have remained in northern Cyprus for over 30 years now.
The Junta in Cyprus was easily overthrown and power was restored to Cypriot authorities, thus the present day Turkish occupation is illegal. The occupation forced over 200,000 Cypriots (a good number of Cypriot Armenians too) out of their homes to the south of the island. Turkey filled their homes with Turks from Anatolia and the Balkans. Cyprus is not Karabakh. Every war and conflict is unique.
It is always amusing, if not painful, to see otherwise reasonable, intelligent Turks, defending the murderous actions of that bunch of non-Turks from Salonika who created the Armenian genocide and eliminated 25% of the population of Anatolia, bankrupted the Ottoman Empire, suppressed the country's main religion, eliminated the caliphate, axed the Arabic alphabet and banned traditional family names and then profited from it all! It reads like some kind of wild fiction novel and if told to anyone, they wouldn't believe it, but it is, in fact...very true. Wake up, Turks. You've been had....and taken for a ride.
Papken, you quote from Webster's Dictionary and tell me I need to read up on history? Wow. All Webster's Dictionary tells you is how English speakers have used words; it says more about English-speakers than it does about Turks.
And, really, you think the Arabs just 'realized' this and suddenly had a problem with it? Go on believing your conspiracy theories and crack-pot analyses.....
Thank you, Rober. That is more or less what I was saying, and probably overstepped if I ever said 'just like Karabakh.' The point is there are many parallels, so Armenians should watch their mouths before trying to place everything every Turk has ever done into ready-made narrative. That's what Turks and Azeris do to us (i.e. equating so-called rebellions with Karabakh to explain a 'Grand Armenia' myth).
Murat, a few things before I'm done for good.
Historians like to do a thing called 'contextualizing.' Firstly, Boghos Nubar was not really an Armenian leader- he didn't even know Armenian and was based in Cairo. Anything he received from the Patriarch or bishoprics in Anatolia and the Balkans had to be translated into French for him. Because he personally had been fighting for a mandate with his French and English friends, he most probably exaggerated. I"m not saying this to justify or minimize, but simply put he didn't have access to any kind of information. He was a politician.
As I said, the Legion troops were formed after the fact, mostly boys who had escaped or were working abroad (many in the US) and came back to find their families dead. They fought in Cilicia and were active far after the major deportations had occurred. Thus there is no causal link.
The people fighting in the Caucasus? Again, that would be Russian subjects- you can't find a reasonable causal link there, either. Just because Nubar Pasha said it doesn't make it so. It's not fair at all for you to take that one statement and then ignore the thousands of survivor memoirs.
Who the hell cares about numbers? It's intent that's important, and the goals of the CUP are plenty clear. For what it's worth I also reject the morons who insist on increasing the numbers, as though it matters. According to Patriarch statistics there were approximately 2 million Armenians in the Empire. Two qualifications: given the millet system, it's more likely the millet administration would have had more solid numbers (based on marriage, death, and baptismal records) than would have the central government (which would have been more focused on taxing a specific household, irrespective of number of residents). Second qualification- those numbers likely include the labor migrants who would have been in the US and Europe. So, they're certainly higher than the low-ball numbers that McCarthy and Karpat trot out, but probably in actuality lower than what the Patriarch had. Murat Bardakci recently published Talat's personal numbers, but I unfortunately left my copy several timezones away and can't quote it. If memory of my quick glance over is correct it was a higher number than what Karpat and McCarthy advance. Additionally, I'm not sure how well these numbers account for Armenian Protestants and Catholics, the communities of which would have been important in Mamuret-ul-Aziz (Harput) and Ankara (for the Catholics).
I'm guessing you were being sarcastic while addressing me (as you should be well are by now I appreciate the many layers of Turkish society), but there is a kernel truth to the constant bating by Armenian nationalists that Turks are 'brainwashed.' I of course locate it in the discursive structures of Turkish society, which are formed top-down. Because it has been taboo to discuss so many issues for so long, because leftists were imprisoned and tortured by the military for so long, the general tendency of Turkish society is to be pretty far right of center (and not unlike the US, I might add). Consequently there is a certain, unconscious self-censorship that occurs, and puts blinders on everyone (just like in the US). So just like Americans quickly believe the rhetoric that al-qaeda wanted to 'take away our freedom!', Turks, too, are generally quick to believe that Armenians want to destroy their country. This then ties together in far more ways than I care to go into, but let's just say that it's reinforced by the dictates of resmi tarihi, putting Ataturk's face on everything (although they finally changed his picture on the lira notes, mashallah), enshrining the Nutuk as a de facto replacement for the Quran, etc. As I've stated in other places, a critical generation of scholars is finally attacking these myths. It's not that they've 'accepted' the Armenian version (there is no one version- and having an opinion on history is not like converting to a different religion), they've just finally decided to be critical about myths (even in the face of 301).
Why not just simple recognize Karabakh? And then unite with Armenia. Who Armenia is waiting permission from? Azeris or Turks?
Thank you Rober. May I also add to Rober that the coup attempt had NO support in Greece either -- thus this led to the downfall of the colonels in Greece as well. Furthermore, the Turkish Cypriots were not treated by the government of Cyprus the way the Armenians in Azerbaijian were! It is ridiculous to compare.
There is no way on earth even a coup against Makarios could have led to the things the Armenians have suffered in the areas of Azerbaijian - and certainly not "before the fact!"
Sorry, Bedros, that is not more or less what you were saying. There is no equation. One is not like the other.
The differences between Cyprus and Karabakh are great. Rather than using the billions of dollars being made off oil to better off those Azeris displaced by the conflict, Azerbaijian has spent most of its newfound wealth on its military while stuffing the rest into the pockets of government officials. That money could be used to build new homes for those displaced families. Instead, the corrupt Azeri government has treated its internally displaced population as second class citizens, limiting their ability to attain jobs and proper housing. Rather than helping its own population, Azeris are bent on a military solution to its territorial problems. As a result, the Azeri population is suffering.
This is direct contrast with Cyprus. After the 1974 invasion, ONE HALF of the Greek Cypriot population lost their property. Fortunately, as oil brings wealth to Azerbaijian, Cyprus was able to gain wealth via tourism. Rather then focusing on a military solution to their territorial woes, Cyprus invested not in its military, but on its population. Do to its progressive, population centered policies, Cyprus now is blessed with a Western European quality of life.
---Also, the two campaigns are not on equal footing. Around 1/3 of Cypriot land was lost to Turkey after the occupation as apposed to only 1/8 of Azeri territory lost. Also, 1/2 of the Cyprtiot population was displaced, much more than the Azeri population living in and around Karabakh. Also, Turks in Cyprus really had no territorial claims to the island, whereas Armenia has a legitimate argument. Karabakh was securely under Armenian control before joining the Soviet Union.
While on the topic of Cyprus, maybe it is appropriate to mention a few things. It is good to see that some here are actually aware of the salient facts.
Conditions for a "legal" Turkish intervetnion actually existed since the 1963 pogroms of Turks and Greek overturn of the constitution by removing the Turkish Cypriots from the political process. Turkish Cypriots were herded into small enclaves and were kept from starving by UN aid. It was the American threats (famous Johnson letter) that kept Turks from a military intervention then. Massacres of Turkish Cypriots (look up Dr. Kucuk) by ultra-nationalist Greek militia was left unanswered and unpunished.
So statements like 74 coup was short lived and everything was going back to normal if it were not for the Turks taking advantage of the situation are simply wrong.
Coup was short lived because of the Turkish military action. Not only Cyprus but Greece also got rid of their junta, and this is the great irony, because of the Turkish military.
Secondly, Turkish military action became urgent becasue of the attrocities that were being committed. UK and Europeans were trying to employ the same process that cost so many lives in Bosnia two decades later. That is, they were happy to get dimplomats around a table and engage in endless negotiations while the mass graves were being filled with Turkish Cypriots. Turks were in a position to do something about it and they did. The only reason why a quick solution was not reached is becasue Greeks tried to internationalize the problem and get USA, UN and EU to do what they failed to accomplish by force (not too different than Armenians actually). As we can see, they have been rather successful. A UN plan was soundly defeated by Greeks, secure in their new EU Greeks-only membeship.
Why there are so many Turkish troops in Cyprus today, I have no idea. Almost none are needed. It would help of course if Greeks did not arm themselves to a degree that they now pose a legitimate military threat to Turkey, 70 miles away. If I were to think like a nationalist, I would say, if only Greek Cypriots were stupid enough to start another military adventure...
In any case, there are certainly parallels with Karabag, but I do not think it is the kind Armenian nationalists would like to highlight.
Bedros Efendi,
Is there any other narrative other than religious or national? What else defines the identity today, when most of us desperately need one? Nothing terribly wrong with nationalism frankly, except when it is built on negation of another one. The very nature of nationalism, causes others to awaken or take up one. Action and reaction. That is exactly how Turkish nationalism came into being belatedly, no?
Turkish identity certainly has and needs its own myths. The center piece of the myth though for the Turks is the the awakening that started with Gallipoli and continued with the War Independence and Ataturk Reforms and the Republic. I must explain here that what I mean by Turk is not an ethnic definition, since Turkey is truly a melting pot of all kinds of ethnicities, nations and groups. For many, if not all, a Turk is one who calls Turkey his/her homeland and the flag as his own. It is that simple, or should be.
It is unfortunate that Armenians have chosen a tragedy as the defining myth of their national identity. It is based necessarily on negation of another nation. I have no idea how this can be reconciled and lead to a happy ending and mutual co-existence.
Yes, Janine, actually it was. Again, please show how you've actually countered in any systematic fashion even one of my statements beyond merely insisting upon it?
And, Murat, the parallels are there. Economic discrimination against Armenians in Karabakh was fairly apparent throughout the Soviet period, massacres had taken place, and the fascist (there is no other term for it) Elcibey declared there would be no more Armenians left in Karabakh- a direct promise of ethnic cleansing. So, a local movement started which was later hooked up to the democratic movement in the Republic of Armenia. At the end of the day many dynamics are different, but they remain very similar. Armenia may not have had a legal right to enter Karabakh, but that really matters little. Minorities were under threat from the right-wing, people stepped in to make sure that wouldn't happen.
Profesor Semerdjian, ( Elyse) Your Blog on a subjuct I know little about. I found very interisting. It sounds like a lot of politics that are simular to many other historic happenings...as you mentioned in your last paragraph as well as many more modern happenings. congrats. on your success. . ( mom sent it to me, I thank her). Dennis or Dr J.
Bedros Efendi,
What happened in places like Van is not a big mystery, and one certainly does not need a Nubar Pasa's statements to make them known.
Open any Armenian book on the topic, you will see insuregnts dug in trenches and fighting the Ottoman army in its own country. You will see the keys of the city being presented to the Russian general who rode into Van, an ancient Ottoman vilayet, gloriously. They may skip the fact that before all this Armenian partisans had to assasinate the brave Armenian governor of the city who did not agre to betray the trust of his government and his country. You really do not a nationalist Turk to remind you all these straight facts, no?
You may agree or not, Ottoman leaders of the time saw this as a lethal threat to their very own existence, while a Wilsonian Armenia discussion was gaining momentum and Czar's armies were rolling into Anatolia while one of the biggest armada history has seen was pounding Gallipoli. What other cuasality is required you think?
Anyways, have a nice trip. I may or may not have let off enough steam, and may or may not be on these pages later.
Murat,
Yes, there are class narratives, gender narratives, post-modern narratives, peasant narratives, etc. Nationalism is a problem in all its manifestations because, as I said, it leads people to view the world through monolithic categories- thus, you yourself conflate all Armenian action (irrespective of whether or not they were the rich in Cairo, the socialists in the Caucasus, or subjects of either the Romanov or Ottoman Empires) into one master narrative, devoid of context or contingency. It also allows you to see this 'conflict' as one of two competing narratives, which (for the professional historian) it is most certainly not. It is thus no surprise that as a 19the century phenomenon, nationalism comes from the same intellectual crucible from which Social Darwinism and other ideologies sprang. Thus it segues all to easily into a 'civilizational' discourse.
You need, too, to actually explain by what you mean by 'negation.' Extermination? Disrespect? Ignoring someone? It really makes no sense.
Turkish nationalism, as I've explained before, is the myth unifying otherwise disparate Muslims who are either native to Anatolia or were expelled from the Balkans and the Caucasus. But it is far from a civic form of nationalism as we see at times in Switzerland or (to a lesser extent) the United States. You need only look at the TTK's pronouncements that the Hitites were Turks, the Sun Theory (idea that all languages sprang from Turkic), Ataturk's daughter's dissertation from the Sorbonne (I think, pretty sure it was a French university) to see there's a concerted effort to establish the historicity of the Turks, who have always thrown down 'devlets' everywhere. Thus, there's a timelessness that they attempt to create, and it should come as no surprise then that you see these morons who killed Hrant going on and on about the 'Turk irk' (Turkish race- funny because irk is actually Arabic, and the word 'soy' was only recently created by ozturkce gurus). Thus, the person for whom Turkey is both home and flag is a Turk is a nice idea, but ultimately non-existent. Hence the movement of the last ten years or so to create the category 'Turkiye'li.' It removes the racial component from the idea 'Turk' and instead creates a more civic notion of Turkishness. Read Bercuhi Berberyan's 'Ermenistan'da bir Turkiye'li' if you get the chance. Baskin Oran and others have written about it.
Nationalism stifles debate, as one who deviates from the 'norm' is easily branded a traitor (as I have been in the Armenian community by some, as many Turks I know have been as well). Moreover it traps everything into this 'nation' category, and leads to the painting with broad strokes, of which you and most Armenians here are plenty guilty of.
Armenian 'chose a tragedy as the defining myth of their national identity' because it explains our being in diaspora. This is one of the many things where, because you are stuck in what appears to be a CHP mode of thought, you simply don't realize how insensitive you are.
Ultimately, I find you an engaging and well-intentioned individual, and certainly more sophisticated than most my compatriots posting here. Unfortunately you're unable to move beyond your own nationalism as I have. You're also unable to really debate the Genocide beyond TTK and CHP talking points as you regurgitate the myths and snippet evidence prevalent in Turkish nationalist circles to explain away the killing of an entire people. Read Sukru Hanioglu and Taraf, not Halacoglu and Milliyet. I wish you the best.
Again, Murat, look beyond the confines of your own nationalism. Van happened after the fact. And what else you have elaborated on fits precisely into what I describe above about the logic of genocide. The Nazis only started killing en masse when they began to sustain losses. Similarly the CUP only went off the deep end when they saw the writing on the wall. Read Donald Bloxham.
Oh, and again, you flip around facts as they fit your narrative (i.e. the Legion)- Wilsonian Armenia only became an issue after the killings, as (or after) the Russian Empire is falling apart. At the end of the day, the only leg the provocation thesis can even hope to stand on is the Rebellion at Van, which has not been studied in all it complexities by any serious historian and happened later in 1915 when Armenians already saw the writing on the wall. As it is, to be fair, Van had always been a bit different (read Altinay's Iki komite Iki Kital, which is actually alright). But this still doesn't explain why they had to kill all the Armenians; nobody in Sivas was a threat. But they all suffered the same.
Murat,
In your last post, at first I thought you were defining Turk only as someone who considers Turkey their country and by no other definition. But I think you're referring to a duality. From my perspective, there are ethnic Turks as well as Turkish nationals. Armenians of Turkey would fall under this second definition of Turks. A Turkish national, born in Turkey, holding a Turkish citizenship, speaking Turkish (in addition to Armenian, sometimes not) and making their life and careers in Turkey. But if you see this definition as the only definition of Turk, then this concept falls apart. In which case you are trying to redefine others who have Armenian, Jewish, Greek, Kurdish and Assyrian ancestory and see themselves as such. And this has been tried by some ultra-nationalists. There is a duality here. A parallel history that they come from. We Armenians have our own history, along with other groups that predate the Ottoman Empire. There were Armenians in Asia Minor/Anatolia/Armenian Plateau etc. long before anyone there called themselves a Turk.
The duality I referred to can be seen in Ara Guler and Hrant Dink who see themselves "of Turkey". They do feel a connection to the country but I think Hrant was very clear about his Armenian identity.
Also, the genocide is not a defining myth in Armenian identity but a defining moment in Armenian history going back at least 2500 years.
Bedros Effendi,
In response to your reply to my comment: you seem to have a problem with rational. Try to picture what it would mean for a nation with a large energy dependent economy when its main source of energy is cut off... It would mean economic collapse. Turkey gets more than half of its energy via Russia. During the Russian-Georgian war Russian energy supplies going to Turkey came to a stop, causing widespread panic amongst officials in Ankara. By defeating the Western/Turkish/Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi Moscow has effectively driven out foreign meddling from within the Caucasus. Since Moscow now controls all the political levers in the Caucasus, since Moscow is firmly entrenched in Armenia, since Moscow wants to sell energy to Turkey and elsewhere, since Georgia and the Black Sea region are now considered to be unstable for the foreseeable future - Armenia was more-or-less presented by Moscow to Turkey as the only alternative route to bring Central Asian energy to Turkey and beyond. This simple yet harsh realization is what forced Ankara to sit down at the table with Armenia in the immediate aftermath of the Russian-Georgian war. You may want to believe in your neo-Ottoman dreams, however, just realize that Armenia today stands poised to become a regional trade hub as a result of recent geopolitical changes in the region.
Bedros,
Just curious as to why you were going to turkey or northern cyprus? Is azerbaijan next on your travels?
it might be wise were we to examine americans prescriptions for advancing justice through individual liberty and rule of agreed upon laws of the land(principles,actually),then adopt those ourselves(come on in the epiphany is great).....
The center piece of the myth though for the Turks is the the awakening that started with Gallipoli and continued with the War Independence and Ataturk Reforms and the Republic. I must explain here that what I mean by Turk is not an ethnic definition, since Turkey is truly a melting pot of all kinds of ethnicities, nations and groups.
In this wonderful melting pot..just how many Armenians or Kurds do you think identify with the awakening at Gallipoli ...you are in your own world...nobody identifies with the myth aside from Turks who identify themselves as Turks. Your nation is built on a bunch of cowards.... look up when you declared War on Germany in WW II...its a joke and everyone knows it. Murat nobody likes your nation...nobody.
THANK YO PAPKEN..
My thoughts exactly...
I love my country and my people and again no matter where i am, i consider my country my motherland and would love to be part of as much as possible..even from distance.. we still have power to help and get her on her feet faster than anyone.. so lets just do it...
Astvats mer het.
TO: Bedros..
That is your opinion and I respect that.
BUt dont' question my motive and my belief and my opinion.. I don' know your background or where you are from but I am assuming you are an Armenian.. and if you are Armenian, I am sure your heart and soul is always connected with your roots and want to be connected with your country as much as possible.. Any Armenian regardless where they live have that longing and connection to their motherland.. You expect to tell me that I should just forget about ARmenia and worry about the country i currently live in and leave the matters of the Armenian people in the Armenian govt?? andddd allow them to become victims not only from their own govt but also the big three sharks, especially the Turkey. ???? This may be your mentality..but it is not mine..
Thank you
Gayane
Any form of a regime change in Armenia today would set the country back a decade or two. As a matter if fact, such talk is treasonous. Learn to deal with the political reality at hand and make the best of what we have. Armenia's political standing has not been this advantages in ages. The new geopolitical climate in the Caucasus is providing us a unique historic opportunity to finally break Armenia out of its political isolation and economic stagnation. Instead of acting like little obsessive children on a temper tantrum get intimately involved in our fledgling republic. This is the time to do so. Stop wasting your time and money chasing genocide recognition. What good is genocide recognition without the over-due reparations and the return of Western Armenia? The only way Turkey will pay reparations and return Western Armenia is when it is brought to its knees. I strongly suggest you people to concern yourselves with strengthening the Armenia state.
Actually, Avetis, if you've notice throughout all my posting rationale and rationality form the cornerstones of my arguments. Hence my rejection of the fantasy land most Diaspora Armenians inhabit. I also reject conspiracy theories which, unfortunately, plague the contours of Armenian political discourse both in the Republic of Armenia and the Diaspora.
Most of Turkey's pipelines come either from the South (via Iraq) or the east (via Georgia/Azerbaijan and Iran). I can't find one that actually comes down through Georgia into Turkey, but I admit I may be wrong. Thus your claim that Turkey is dependent on Russia for energy rings hollow.
I do see some of the rationale to your argument, and perhaps there is more to it than I see (basically if Armenia becomes the conduit, Russia can better control the westward flow of oil). I think we both remain hopeful that Armenia will become a regional hub because of these political developments.
At the same time, you need to see the Protocols in the context of Turkey's new foreign policy, which I believe provides a more accurate lens for viewing these development.
And, accusing me of having 'neo-Ottomanist' dreams is simply unfair and one step below character assassination (especially in a forum like this).
Before I forget, the only energy line that goes from Russia to Turkey is Blue Stream (natural gas), and that was not at all incumbent on Georgia.
My ultimate point is that Armenians should place blame precisely on those who masterminded the genocide, not on the Turkish people in general. The Turkish masses had no idea what was really going on. They were able to manipulate and operate in secret because they were apart from the main government at the time. The myth-making and lies continued after the fall of the empire to justify their actions, not only of creating a haven for 'Turkish' Muslims from the Balkans and the Caucasus who were being persecuted, but of their ethnic cleansing of Anatolia in order to 'create space' for them. At the same time, Armenians in the provinces were equally unaware of why they were subjected to such harsh treatment. They were blamed for all the ills that fell on the Ottoman Empire, while the true criminals were the revolutionary leaders, the Young Turks, and the CUP.
Manooshag brings out a very good point. I just finished reading the recently publishd book, "Children of Armenia". It illustrates the quest for justice vis a vis the Genocide from the post WWI period to the present day; focusing on the U.S. community. If we consider that the Genocide was in a period of public silence from the 1930's until our "reawakening" in the late 1960's; the position we are in today is a miracle. The push for recognition serves not only as a vehicle to build international support for Armenia and Armenians; but also has had an incredible impact on educating, inspiring and activating the succeeding generations. This is the worst nightmare for the deniers. They believed,through the 1930's-1960"s that the Genocide would be forgotten with the passing of the survivor generation. It didn't turn out that way. The opposite happened.We are inspired by the memory of our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. These activists efforts helped to galvanize the identity of an entire generation and more. This is why we must always believe that the truth will prevail. Only then will the Armenian nation rest. This we owe to our(in my case) grandparents who came here to survive; always with Armenia in their heart.
Bedros Efendi,
There is nothing in the "protocols" that supplement or support Ankara's traditional foreign policy formulations.
The fact of the matter is, Turkey shut down its border with Armenia because of Armenian control over Artsakh. No where in the protocols does it mention anything about Armenian forces pulling back from Artsakh. After fifteen years of saying it will not open the border as long as Armenia controls Artsakh, Ankara has suddenly changed its mind. Realize that Ankara changed its mind after the Russian victory in Georgia in 2008 and the cold realization that its economy and political establishment are vulnerable.
The recognition of borders and the setting up of a historical commission are vague, subjective, not tangible - unlike Ankara opening of borders with Armenia despite Armenian control in Artsakh, which is real/tangible. People who study history and politics know well that official documents are essentially worthless in realpolitik. Official documents are formalities and nothing more. The only way Turkey will pay its overdue reparations and return Western Armenia is when Turkey is defeated on the battlefield. There is no other way. Instead of wasting our limited resources on "genocide recognition" we should be engaging in a pan-national effort to strengthen our fledgling republic. Turkey will sooner or later fall apart. And when Ankara does eventually fall, we as a nation-state must be powerful enough, economically secure enough, to exploit it.
Turkey gets most of its energy from Russia, not Iraq. Ankara's dependency on Russian trade and energy is growing year-by-year. Now, with Georgia off limits to Russia for the foreseeable future and the future of the Black Sea unpredictable due to the serious dispute with NATO and the Ukraine over Crimea, Armenia has become the main focus for Moscow. Armenia is Russia's southern gate and with it can control the strategic Caucasus. Armenia is where Russia checks Turkish, NATO/American, Iranian and Islamic expansions - as it has been doing for the past two hundred years.
In order for this agenda to be finalized the next phase will attempt to bring Azerbaijan and Armenia closer, perhaps we may even see another war in Georgia. Nonetheless, this will be the most difficult phase for sure. And this is where I'm somewhat worried. How much concessions will Armenia be forced to make regarding Artsakh? Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, as long as we keep Artsakh proper along with the Karvajar and Berdzor regions, and secure a real lasting peace treaty, I would support the plan. Based on my assessment of the political climate in the Kremlin, as well as how well Russia today is entrenched in Armenia, Artsakh will not be undermined - for it is one of the important levers Moscow has over the region's powerful Turkic/Islamic presence.
Let's just realize that Armenia/Armenians are big only in our minds. From an international perspective, a tiny, re-sourceless, impoverished, landlocked nation surrounded by enemies in one of the most complicated and often hostile regions of the world - does not have much lever on the negotiating table. Let's just be thankful that we have a regional superpower like Russia looking over us - even if it is for their national interests...
As a student of philosophy, including philosophy of science, and an amateur historian of the late ottoman cycle of violence, I find some aspects of prof. Smith’s article paradoxical. Let me begin with the tenets of prof. Smith’s article that I agree with. I agree that the question of the Armenan genocide is everybody’s concern, not only that of Armenians and Turks. I agree that it is wrong to “exclude mass murder from the realm of conscious action”, but am surprised why such a statement should be thought relevant to our judgement of the protocols.
The Goldhagen citation can not be seen as a relevant argument. Why is it inserted? I agree that there is a clear danger that the protocols and any subsequent commission may in fact be a vehicle for traditional Turkish denialism. But I fear that the reaction of many genocide scholars, simply rejecting the idea of a new critical assessment of the knowledge on the massacres and other mass death of Armenians in the Turkey run by the ittihadists, may strengthen a dubious Turkish diplomatic victory, rather than undermine it. This will happen by refusing to meet the challenge of presenting one’s case once again and maybe corroborated by new evidence. By the way: to engage again in arguing one’s case cannot in itself imply that one is uncertain about its truth, as some have claimed regarding their attitude to the idea of the commsiion of historians. For undoubtedly science rests on the double foundation of established fact on the one hand and of criticism on the other. And once established facts are challenged by relevant stakeholders (the majority of Turks and a few scholars, in our case) it is a recipe for defeat to ignore the need for a new round of arguments – that is, not for those who stay in their ivory tower of pure research, content with their truths as some kind of personal belongings - but a defeat for those who aspire to convince people. As historiographical research shows, concrete historical research thrives on challenges. What history as a discipline does all the time is to revise itself. The questions of the Armenian genocide is no exception. A new round of arguments may well confirm the position taken by the majority of historians.
A better response will be to demand as much reports and publicity from the commission as possible. But from my own experience of debates I am afraid that the community of genocide scholars have an additional problem, namely that one has taken it for granted that the events of 1915-17 qualify as “genocide” to the extent that it has even been considered immoral to raise the question and inspect the arguments, both those actually raised and the potential ones, that may have induced scholars like Norman Stone, Guenter Lewy and Gilles Veinstein to doubt that the ittihadists actually launced a policy of extermination. To do this, that is to assume the role of the Advocate of the Devil is a role cherished by real research, but according to my experience mostly avoided by genocide scholars. But ethics does not thrive on dogmatism. On the contrary.
"Thus, the person for whom Turkey is both home and flag is a Turk is a nice idea, but ultimately non-existent."
I could not disgree more. For many Turks, even the uneducated, Turk has meant one who belongs to Turkey, since they are all aware to some degree that many of their ancestors were Albanians, Tatars, Cerkez, Gurcu, Azeri, Arab, Crimean, Uygur, Ozbek, Pomak, Russian, Bosnian, Macedonian, Kirgiz, Afgan, Tajik, Laz, Kurd, Lezgi, Turcoman, Christian, Jewish and Muslim etc...
This is by no means an enlightened and minority view of what it means to be a Turk. The very statements TSK and generals, that cathedral of Turkish nationalism, make on important occasions (it is a known but undocumented fact that Cerkez are represented disproportionately among the ranks of the military for example) always underline this reality. It is the Devlet's official policy and definition.
In contrast, how often you hear the question "who is an Armenian, or Greek, or Azeri?" for example?
You will hear "Who is American?" or "Who is a Turk?", and I am grateful that this can be asked and discussed.
Hrant was not an Armenian, for me and the masses of Turks, he was a Turkish-Armenian. He was a pure Anadolu cocugu. It was our loss, not Armenia's or diaspora's.
Of course the national myth making which started so late for Turks, went through numerous gyrations and bends and twists. Sun language theory, searching for roots in Central Asia, and a whole bunch of other nonsense... but this is all history! For many anyway. This was a time, 20s-30s, a great many of European and Balkan nations were experimenting with definitions of national identity. Look where it took Germans! It is important to appreciate that while most of Europe was under the boots of generals for decades, from Spain to Greece, Turks were able to hold on to a, however imperfect, parliamentary democracy - how is that for "contextualization"? Heads of state wore tuxedos and ties, not uniforms. This was no coincidence in my opinion.
Turks were about a century late to national myth-making, and it showed. Where it has ended though is where it should be. It is a defintion that is inclusive and enduring, unlike the 150 yr-old ethno-religious centric definitions which will not last too long, or will but always in conflict, since they are based on negation of others.
Just look at the spectacle of Israel, putting a gun to the head of Abbas and demanding that not only Palestinians recognize Israel, but recognize it as a Jewish state! They have no qualms about this though a third of their citizens are Muslim Arabs, and mainly Palestinians!
In support of above, I wanted to also add this:
The most nationalist Turk, I mean an embaressingly nationalist and passionate person, who would cry at the sight of a Turkish flag, sang the national anthem at the top of his lungs whenever he had a chance, and worked tirelessly for national causes was a Turkish-Armenian - who lived abroad.
I hope this gives a pause to some here.
"At the end of the day, the only leg the provocation thesis can even hope to stand on is the Rebellion at Van, which has not been studied in all it complexities by any serious historian and happened later in 1915 when Armenians already saw the writing on the wall."
Nothing can be further from truth I am afraid. There is a whole scholarly book, written solely and specifically on this topic, placing everything and all the complexities in proper context. It is well referenced, professional, quantitative and necessarily factual.
I would even bet you know this book and the author rather well..
Systematic attacks by Russia for centuries in its push to warmer seas, the century old ethnic cleansing and demographic engineering in the Caucuses, large chunks of the most important parts of the Ottoman empire recently fallen under the Russian boots with Muslim populations ruthlessly cleansed from Balkans, numerous Armenian groups actively and boldly seeking a Greater Armenia (demand still made right here on these pages!), and enjoying open economic, political and moral support of the West and Russians was I think cause enough for Ottomans to worry about their very own existence.
Armenians to this day do not seem to understand the signficance of the Russian collaboration and support for their cause and what this meant to the Turk at the dawn of the 20th century. There is a reason why other non-Muslim "minoritiy" efforts for independence did not draw the same visceral reaction.
I rest my case...
Ragnar,
Facts are no match for myths. This is hardly about facts and histiogrphy, it is about a myth that defines a national identity. You can see why some consider it blasphemous to even question the given truths.
Well, Murat, that may be the case at this point in time, but well into the 19th C, and that means for hundreds of years, real Turks were a minority in their own country. In 1914, the 10 million people in Anatolia were roughly one quarter Greek, one quarter Turkish, one quarter Armenian and one quarter Kurdish. As native, indigenous Anatolians, many people considered the Armenians to have become more Turkish than many of those who called themselves Turks. The point is that outsiders... non-Turks...came up w/ the idea of ethnically cleansing what became Turkey, not the natives and not, I believe, the Turks. As you should know, the architects of the Armenian genocide did it outside the purview of the sultan and his government, who would not support their murderous actions. I don't think it's fair to blame today's Turks for what happened, but at the same time, today's Turks should not defend a group of people who acted in a criminal way on a mega-scale. It is indefensible and honestly, any self-respecting nationalist should denounce and distance themselves from what the CUP did, rather than support their actions, because what they did stained Turkey and set it back immeasurably.
If you're referencing Justin McCarthy's sad effort, I'm sorry, but that's not scholarly. He is widely discredited in academic circles. There's a reason he could only get that book published by a lower-tier academic press- and even then he had to get it done by Hakan Yavuz, who is also held in ill-repute by most Turkish scholars.
Karekin- yes, I mostly agree with you
Gayane- no, I'm not saying 'forget Armenia.' As I clearly stated, I'm against a mentality prevalent in the Diaspora that the Republic of Armenia is something they claim ownership to. I am an Armenian. I live in Armenia presently. I have family here. But, at the end of the day, I am of Anatolian stock and not Caucasian.
Murat- Look into why there's a whole discussion (and reaction against) the category 'Turkiye'li' as distinct from 'Turk.'
Avetis, I appreciate your taking the time to articulate a position, but unfortunately you keep on missing the main point- over the last 5+ years Ankara has completely re-oriented their policy goals. Closing the border with Armenia in 1992-3 had nothing to do with the current authorities. Moreover Turkey has come to see themselves, more and more, as a north-center hub rather than an east-west one for the flow of commerce.
Again, the only energy link between Turkey and Russia is Blue Stream, which goes under the Black Sea- not through Georgia. This one fact complicates your analysis.
My father's grandmother was a teenager in Marash when the Armenians were relocated. Despite her old age, she used to remember that they had very intimate relations with her Armenian neighbors and she cried when they left as if she had lost a relative.
Shame on those who managed to set these two nations against one another.
Shame on Russians for deceiving Armenians against the Ottomans for their own interests.
Shame on Armenian gangs for falling for Russian deceipt and revolting and attacking Muslims in Eastern Anatolia.
Shame on Ottoman goverment for not managing the country well and resorting to a unpleasant solution in which innocents were hurt.
"Look into why there’s a whole discussion (and reaction against) the category ‘Turkiye’li’ as distinct from ‘Turk.’"
What is significant for me is that there is such a discussion, not why. That, if I may add without sounding nationalistic, does not make it unique, but distinguishes "modern" Turkish nationalism form many others. Frankly, I prefer it that way.
Karekin,
When you say:
"...that may be the case at this point in time, but well into the 19th C, and that means for hundreds of years, real Turks were a minority in their own country. In 1914, the 10 million people in Anatolia were roughly one quarter Greek, one quarter Turkish, one quarter Armenian and one quarter Kurdish"
You are under the impression that current concepts of national identity, or the very word itself existed that many centuries ago. You look into history and make judgements with a 19th century mindset and vocabulary. It does not work that way.
Turks came to Anatolia as a ruling class, much like Mongols came down to India. They did not quite see themselves as this or that nation. Just a collection of clans, tribes, princehoods, Sultans and beys and people who pledged alligence to them and paid taxes and sougth protection. It was pretty much the same for Armenians, Romans and Kurds. You think they called themseves a Kurdish nation?
It is a bit amusing that you still try to partition blame on this or that nation or race. It was the Ottoman ruling class who made decisions! One of them was a gypsy for petes sakes!
It is even more amusing but not surprising that you do not list any of the Armenian revolutionary organizations, parties that actually made so many fateful decisions on the behalf of all Armenians of Anatolia among the guilty.
Numerous Ottomans who were thought to have committed crimes have actually been taken to courts (what kind of courts, a whole different topic!) as early as 1919, and some have been hung for their actions against Armenians and others. Other Ottoman leaders that Armenians have consdiered responsible have been hunted like animals and murdered all through Europe and Caucuses (then again in 70s). Turks have paid a heavy price in blood, property and politically.
Has there been a single Armenian insurgent, murderer or leader who faced the music? Has any one of these people ever tried for their well documented crimes? Don't they deserve some credit for what happened to the Armenians? No. They are mostly heros to Armenians today.
Even Greeks faced their mistakes at the end of the War of Independence and sent the ones responsible for the end of the Greek civilization in Asia Minor to the gallows.
Ottomans are history and gone for almost a century. Armenian nationalist parties, Dasnaks and Hincaks, still rule and ruin Armenian lives and others.
As I have stated before, Armenians (sorry for the broad stroke) have a very very long way to go before they can demand apologies and be credible.
Henrik, in response to your request for material on the Pontic Greek Genocide, I recently read an excellent memoir entitled,"Not Even My Name" by Thea Halo. She is the daughter of a survivor. The bookgives an excellent historical content with the family story. The parellels are incredible. I believe it is available through NAASR and public bookstores. Good luck.
Stepan
Bedros Efendi,
Documented truths are still truths irrespective of the credibility of the author to this or that interest group. I said scholarly and referenced and factual. Not an opinion piece.
One needs to be specific about which alleged facts in such a book for example can not be backed up with recroded and witnessed realities. Otherwise this wholsale badmouthing of an author or a book seems more like an emotional response rather than based on a concern for truth.
It would have been a bit more credible if you had mentioned the book before you made the statement that no such study exists, rather then after I pointed it out.
It would have been even more credible if you had actually displayed the same concern for scholarly quality and credibility of the various Armenian propaganda and proven forgeries paraded under the guise of historical research. Or is that a nationalistic impulse of mine to expect it?
You must be aware of the difficulties in publishing any such work that contradicts the Armenian national myths. You may also be aware that many such books and historical menuscripts and documents have been disappearing from the world libraries and archives, US in particular.
Note also that I have and can use only Western and Armenian sources to make any point I need to make on this subject.
At some point though you have to agree that you find the need to explain away way too many things.
Murat,
In an earlier post you said the following
"Contrary to the common rhetoric here, alleged genocide topic is very much discussed and argued, in public and in private in Turkey. There are conferences, books, seminars, speeches etc covering the whole spectrum of thoughts and opinions. In fact, it may be one of the few places in the civilized world one can even discuss the topic. Surely the nationalists do all in their power to discourage opposing views and abuse the existing laws to silence their opponents, but in the end, no single person in Turkey has been indicted or jailed or fined for claiming that it was genocide. There is no such specific law."
I believe you're being disingenuous with the picture you paint. The more open discussions of genocide is a recent development even though there is still great resistence to it. Before then it was indeed a taboo subject and discouraged from discussion. There does not need to be a specific law when a more generic law on "insulting Turkishness" can be used. The change has come mostly because of Turkey's persuit of EU membership and also thanks to Hrant Dink's courageous public efforts for dialogue. Yes things are changing and at a faster pace. 10 years ago you could not publically say that there was no genocide because even that would have been referencing 1915.
There has indeed been a brainwashing in Turkey thanks to the government's policies on what gets taught in the schools. Armenians are characterised as backstabers and foreigners. There was an article on a Turkish daily's website the other day about how the textbooks have been changed for this year where demonization of others is softened. There is an official historical narrative in Turkey that does not add up and more and more are understanding this.
Murat, I can see what you're talking about when you talk about Hrant Dink and of being from Anatolia. There were Armenians who volunteered for the Ottoman army after it was opened to minorities. Many Armenians saw themselves as citizens of the empire. But we have also been a people onto ourselves.
I've been following this thread and I feel that it's important and with substance.
Also, who is this bleeding-heart abroad-living Turkish-Armenian you refer to?
Bedros Efendi,
Like I said previously, you have a problem with rational. The "South Stream" pipeline is a gas supply route. However, that does not take into account Russian tankers that deliver oil to Turkey. Nevertheless, Russia is the largest supplier of energy to Turkey. Moreover, pipelines that brought Caspian Sea region oil and gas to Turkey via Georgia and Azerbaijan, as well as the lesser known but just as significant rail line that traversed Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey, are now disrupted as a result of the Russian-Georgian war. Once again, let me reiterate, since you are having difficulty; with Georgia's future unpredictable as a result of its dispute with Russia, with the Black Sea region unpredictable as a result of Russia's dispute with Ukraine and NATO, Armenia has been thrusted onto center stage as the only stable platform from which Russia can engage Turkey and beyond with its energy trade.
Karekin,
"In 1914, 10 million people in Anatolia were roughly one quarter Greek, one quarter Turkish, one quarter Armenian and one quarter Kurdish."
I have not checked the demographics figures but that sounds a little too cleanly distributed. You also forgot the Assyrians. I believe there was a non-insignificant population of them.
That said, empires are entities where a ruling group governs outside of their native region and thus not a majority in those areas. It has been the destiny of empires to break apart.
There was an identifiable ruling group that architected the genocide but the whole region was a tinderbox to begin with. Wars and fears are enought to set it off. There are many Turks who warned their neighbors of what was coming. There are stories of how during the marches Turks and Kurds would plead that Armenians leave their kids with them until they returned, knowing full well that the Armenians were not coming back. At the same time there are Turks and Kurds who attacked their Armenian neighbours. For an example of this, seek out an episode from the radio program Soundprint. It's entitled "Remains of the Sword: Armenian Orphans". It's about 30 min and centers around a Turkish woman who discusses the story of her Armenian grandmother. It's a fascinating insight into what happened to Armenian orphans from 1915. It's a story from ground-zero.
Mr Efendi
No where in my posts did I say I want ownership of Armenia.. on the contrerary.. no one should own anyone or any county.. Armenia is for ALL Armenians and not just the ones living in Armenia... Hence, the reason I said we, as in Diaspora should have involvement in Armenia's affairs and have some influence..I never said lets own Armenia.. I apologize if I misstated or you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
My dad's entire family lives in Armenia (all 100+ of them) so even if I want to stay out of Armenia's business, I have a reason not to...(but then again, someone who has no power, no money and no means to influence the matters, I am not sure how far i will get but all I know is I will do what it takes as little as it may be)
I hear what you are saying and I think I understand where you are coming from, but that is something alot of Armenians may not agree with.. Armenia is for all of us..
Thank you for your input and for speaking out and sharing your straight forward point of views.. it is much appreciated and respected.
Gayane
Murad
unfortunately this (the role of myths) probably holds for both Turks and Armenians and probably also for most of us when the core of our deepest convictions are touched. In my country, which never had to go through what Greeks, Turks, Kurds and above all Armenians - who clearly suffered the greatest catastrophy of all in these years - have had to go through, we have the same phenomenon. Still, history shows that arguments in some cases have won in the case of challenging dogmatism. What however surprises me is the dismissive attitude regarding the protocols because 1) the Turkish government has played the "research card" and this should be followed up, much in the same way as the EU follows up Turkish promises of the amelioration of human rights (relevant questions are: what kind of commission will be set up, what will be its mandate, what common rules of documentation and analysis will be followes, how does one envisage at all that a definite conclusion might follow from the proceedings, how will the proceedings be reported, 2) the weak position one puts oneself in, primarily for the cause oneself fights for, by refusing to take the challenge.
Finally, if it is not possible to find a common conclusion, I believe it will be very clear who has the greatest burden of proof at the end of the day. I will not be surprised if this will be those who hold the receved opinion in Turkey.
Well Murat, I'm not as clueless about history, ancient or otherwise, as you might think. It is also important to understand that those original Turkish tribes who arrived and conquered Anatolia and Armenia were rather few in number. They arrived to find a population that had been there for thousands of years, had architecture, music, literature, etc. They could not have succeeded without the help of the native Armenians who were vehemently anti-Greek, anti-Byzantine at that time. As one scholar I know puts it, within a generation, all those Selcuk Turks had become half-Armenian. As we fast-forward to Ottoman times, we find other groups being invited into the empire by the sultan and we find their descendants in Salonika plotting to overthrow the sultan and assume control of the empire. In this, they succeeded and as part of that success, worked to cleanse the empire in much the same way they had been cleansed or expelled from another empire. The truth is that these people were not ethnically Turkish...they may have assumed a Turkish character, as many people did under Ottoman rule, as a way of blending into the system, but that very system did not see them as Turks, and moreover, their connection to Islam was also suspect. Let's ask another question by way of analogy.... are all Americans personally responsible for the one million plus casualties in Iraq and the 4 million refugees there? Or, should the blame more properly rest on those who worked so strongly behind the scenes to engineer it all...the neocons? The situation is not that dissimilar. I opposed every military action in Iraq and Afghanistan, yet here we are. I feel upset and disconnected from these actions, in much the way most Turkish people probably feel about what happened in 1915, but I too get lumped in with the overriding American policy which I never supported on any level.
Yes, let's have a joint American - Japanese commission on whether the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
Let's have a joint commission between Jews and neo-Nazis on whether there was a Holocaust.
Let's have a joint commission of Turks and Assyrians to ascertain whether the former committed genocide against the latter or whether the Assyrians "rebelled" like the Armenians supposedly did and thus deserved to be murdered. Maybe Assyrians were trying to establish a new Assyrian Empire?
Let's have a joint commission between Khmer Rouge and ordinary Cambodians to see who committted "auto-genocide" against whom.
Let's convene a joint commission of Turks and Armenians to look into the 1909 Adana massacres to see whether they actually occurred or are just a figment of Armenians' vivid imagination.
Let's create a joint commission of Communists and Russians to see whether Communism was really as bad as some say or whether it was a Workers' Paradise after all.
Let's have a joint commission of atheists and Christians to determine if Jesus Christ was really the son of God or whether there is a God at all.
This is the best way to settle questions like these. Joint commissions. For example, if you want to try a murderer in front of a jury, put the defendant's family and friends on the jury and see what decision the jury comes up with. Sounds like a good idea, huh?
Thank you!
"that may have induced scholars like Norman Stone, Guenter Lewy and Gilles Veinstein"
Ragnar, those are hardly convincing names. I don't think you need me to list reasons why the first two are highly questionable names to put forth. I don't know much about Gilles but seeing as he quotes Justin McCarthy's demographic work as a reliable source I have strong reservations about him as well, as should you.
Ragnar,
Every nation has a myth that defines and anchors it, Turks have them too, it is just that this topic is not part of it.
That is why (most) Turks would have no problem or hang up about the facts of the matter.
More significantly, the facts of the matter are rather well known. There are very few details left in the dark. Numbers, figures, events, pictures, what happened, who took what decision, in response to what event etc.. all have been known to historians for a long time.
The argument is more about how to categorize this tragedy and the official acts and policies relevant to it. In my opinion this is what it boils down to.
That is why I do not think such a commission will accomplish much, but I susupect a lot many more Armenians will learn a lot of new facts about their national myth, as there has been a fully developed genocide industry feeding the flames and the myth, which is by defintion one sided, for a very long time. That may not be a bad thing.
Random, you say:
" The more open discussions of genocide is a recent development even though there is still great resistence to it. Before then it was indeed a taboo subject and discouraged from discussion. There does not need to be a specific law when a more generic law on “insulting Turkishness” can be used."
That is true of course. I personally do not see why and how I should be insulted no more than Italians should be insulted if reminded and apology demanded for feeding early Chrisitians (your ancestors?) to the lions, but poeple have different sensitivities and definitions of national dignity. What offends me the most is the blatant distortion and abuse of facts and figures.
" The change has come mostly because of Turkey’s persuit of EU membership and also thanks to Hrant Dink’s courageous public efforts for dialogue. "
Partly true, there have been numerous other Turkish intellectuals who have braved the currents and sentiments. Most important factor though has been the gradual recovery of national self-confidence and Turkey moving beyond a cold-war frontier state status. From a country who had to beg Luxemburg for a $1M loan, where 30 people (stdents, professors, writers..) were killed in an average day, now Turkey is in G20. You have no idea what it does to a national psyche. EU, has actually slowed this process with the way they have handled Turkish accession, Cyprus, Bosnia, etc.. Structural improvements and reforms are not to be confused with this.
"There has indeed been a brainwashing in Turkey thanks to the government’s policies on what gets taught in the schools. Armenians are characterised as backstabers and foreigners."
Frankly, I have no recollection of this topic ever being covered in my history textbooks. Recent history has in general been poorly covered anyway. Armenian tragedy was simply a big footnote, buried under the general heading "minority" problems and how it was exploited by the colonial powers. Even you have to admit, there is much truth in it. Most of the brainwashing concerned Ataturk of course, and I mean this in a positive way.
"There is an official historical narrative in Turkey that does not add up and more and more are understanding this."
I do not agree. Much is in the open.
"There were Armenians who volunteered for the Ottoman army after it was opened to minorities. Many Armenians saw themselves as citizens of the empire. But we have also been a people onto ourselves."
Of course there were patriotic Armenians, Jews and Greeks. My grandfather, an Ottoman officer, had a young Greek officer (doctor) in hic command. When he was taken prisoner by the Greeks in Bursa, his Greek camp de aid helped him escape. There were many non-muslim soldiers who fell in Gallipoli wearing the Ottoman uniform. There were some, but not many, Armenians who were heart broken to see their Istanbul under the boots of Allied soldiers. Some contributed their efforts and money to help the Kemalists. A street is named after one such patriot in Bakirkoy I think.
Vatan is where home is after all.
Karekein, you say:
"The truth is that these people were not ethnically Turkish…they may have assumed a Turkish character, as many people did under Ottoman rule, as a way of blending into the system, but that very system did not see them as Turks, and moreover, their connection to Islam was also suspect."
You are stuck deep in this ethno-centric explanations, and nationalistic "narrative" as a certain Efendi would say...
Ottomans were a dynasty, why is this so complicated? Like Romanovs and Habsburgs... nationalism was the poison of any empire, Turkish or Greek or Armenian did not matter. Ataturk had to fight Sultan's army before he fought Greeks. Ottoman elite came from all backgrounds. It was pure meritocracy. It explains much of its early success and longevity for so many centuries.
I am frankly not interested in assigning guilt and judging. I do not feel qualified. Truth matters more. I mean there are people who still want "their" Constantinoupolis back, Serbs set up rape camps to avenge the Battle of Mohac which took place seven centuries ago, and some here wait and pray for a Greater Armenia! Most Turks do not get it, and they should not need to.
Spare me the cliche metaphors about mothers and babies and cords.
If I remember correctly, last year, when the people of Armenia united to get rid of this CRIMINAL REGIME, protested peacefully for 10 days, were killed and beaten, had a state of emergency imposed for 20 days, their right to assembly was taken away, illegaly, their media was severely restricted, they were portrayed as drug addicts and looters on TV, their army fired at them (some of them their own kids serving in the army), many went to jail, many more lost their jobs for voting the wrong way -- and then, even after all of this, the people of Armenia, on Serge's inauguration day, flooded the streets in protest...what did the Diaspora do?
All major Armenian American organizations -- ANCA, AAA, Eastern/Western Diocese, Eastern/Western Prelacy, and the AGBU -- even before the state of emergency was lifted, signed a letter saying they were ready to work with PRESIDENT SERGE SARKISSIAN -- effectively giving the finger to all the people who were out there protesting so they would never have to hear those words 3 words together.
Your "brothers and sisters" in Armenia spoke out plenty, Ms. Gayane -- where was all of this outcry and criticism of Serge when he let the dogs out on the people of Armenia last year? Why didn't you write letters, emails, gave speeches, wrote op-eds when the people of Armenia were getting SLAUGHTERED.
Did Mr. Hachikian and his organization forget that they stood by Serge and held his hand when Serge was at his weakest? Did he forget that he was a shoulder to cry on when Serge realized the people of Armenia HATE HIM? How dare Mr. Hachikian talk about "political capital?" How dare you talk about helping our "brothers and sisters" in Armenia when the Diaspora fully stood by Serge and thus, AGAINST the will of the people of Armenia?
It's quite frustrating, the sudden case of amnesia the Diaspora has been struck with. Quite frustrating indeed.
Murad and Paul
the main thrust of my argument lies in that science rests on the double foundation of established fact on the one hand and of criticism on the other.
If we exagerrate the first (or the second) we compromise science. Arguing against a commission by pointin to alleged established facts is a weak position. Turkish nationalists are already exploiting this weakness.
Regarding the three authors I mention the point is not to judge them, but understand and argue against their arguments. To discount the not negligible number of scholars who disagree is another weak position. There is no use in trying to deny that there exists a disagreement among scholars on the point of wheter there was a definite program for extermination or not. To day
About the facts, I tend to disagree with you, Murad, since many sentral researchers, both Ronald Suny and Hans-Lukas Kieser, both clear supporters of the genocide thesis, emphasize that the exact chain of command, presumably from top echelons of the CUP to the atrocities on the ground, is not known. And even the facts that come closest like Talaats communication with Reshid on the massacres is Diyarbaki, are open to alternative interpretations. To say that at decision for extermination PROBABLY was taken in a fairly large secret CUP meeting (that we know took place) in march 1915 as Dadrian and Akcam says, is conjectural.
To my mind, the problem for those who want Turkey honestly to go into the black spots is that the ethical issue has been so much tied up with very specific assertions that are empirical, open to doubt and anyhow difficult to substantiate.
I would say that the guilt of the central ittihadists - i a general sense - is obvious because they never really bothered to stop the massacres, and Armenian property was seized, Armenian monuments destroyed and Armenians in the end ethnically cleansed from their ancestral homeland. The moral responsibility of the ittihadists is clear even if the exact type of intent and command structure is not clear.
Apart from this I also belive, Murat, that Turkish national myths also are at stake when we discuss the Armenian genocide, as Taner Akcam says most succinctly in his first book in turkish "The Turkish national identity and the Armenian question". What Turks did to Armenians in a time of crisis Turks have to suppress from their consciousness, because the epoch in question is depicted as a time when turks mainly were victims, and the nationalist movement heroically saved the turkish state. Akcam says, f I remember correctly, that the Armenian fate is a blemish on the Turkish national myth, and that unless this is rectified, Turkey can never be fully democratic.
Hello Murat,
Yes, I understand that the Ottomans were a dynasty, but the Young Turks and certainly not the members of the CUP had anything to do with that dynasty. They were a group apart, in many ways. My reason for discussing this is not to make it an ethnocentric issue, but to show that it was not the Turkish people who were responsible for the deportations and genocide, but this shady group of characters. For this reason, they should separate themselves from their actions, especially if Turkey wants to divest itself of this burden in a mature way. I agree that this was the past, that things need to move forward and that a reconciliation is absolutely necessary, but instead of defending this group of criminals, Turkey should separate itself from them. Sadly, due to its republican and Kemalist legacy, Turkey has had a very tough time accepting or acknowledging its Ottoman past in the proper way. Let's face it, other than a few scholars, hardly anybody in Turkey today can read any of the Osmanli inscriptions that are on its historic buildings, let alone any of the texts and documents associated with that period. This is a sad commentary on 20th C. Turkey and contributes to the disconnect with its past.
Hye, the ARMENIAN GOLGOTHA, by Grigoris Balakian is phenomenal... for him to have lived through the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation and then to write it for posterity, amazes me.
I would think this book is worthy of publishing in many other languages - to be the tool for the world
to end the cycles of Genocides. The Ottoman Turks violation of humanity is horrendous, unforgettable for any surviviors - justice must be served - Genocides must be stopped. Even into today, the subsequent Turkish denials indicate, still, the mentality of the Turkish leadership even since the Genocide who have not any shame, any compassion, any recognition of their nations' reputation - who came as hordes from the mountains of Asia - bt yet have not joined the civilized peoples on our planet - albeit the hundreds of years the Turks have established the Armenian's lands as their own - even to taking the Armenian culture as their own (Turks evidenly had none). The
current pursuit of Turkey's 'road map' indicates their ingrown hatred of a people whom their forbears
had sought to eliminate from the face of the earth! Hence, this Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation, as evidenced by the Protocols and more, is ingrained in their leaderships' relentless pursuit to accomplish now the elimination of the fledgling Armenian nation. I am certain that the world's nations see all this - politically, oily, militarily, more, these same nations yet, by not entering the fray also add to the issue - for by not speaking up, by not taking the morally honest positions against the Genocide perpetrator - this non-action, speaks as if they acquiese (sp?) to the Turkish desparate
stance against the fledgling nation of Armenia. Morality is needed to end the cycle of Genocides.
If not, where, when the next Genocide - another peoples like the Darfurians - to suffer man's inhumanity to man... Manooshag
P.S. I recently read a copy of CRIME OF VENGEANCE by Edward Alexander, a copy in my son's office, which tells of Telilarian's trial in Germany. It may be out of print, but if available, it is a must read.
Howsomever, I was reading the section about the German court trial, and one of the witnesses for Telilarian - Grigoris Balakian. We have been in our history blessed with so many great patriots... I've added Grigoris to my list. M
Several Bosnian survivors of Srebrenica demand justice for the genocide in front of the UN court at The Hague and every media outlet and their subsidiary covers the story. When Armenians worldwide hold protests demanding justice for the genocide it gets scant coverage if that.
The familiar shades of so called justice we know so well...
After reading the hysteria of our intellectual midgets everywhere Davidian's essay here is perhaps the best commentary I have yet seen regarding recent political developments in the Caucasus. Bravo, Mr. Davidian!
Excellent Dave..
G
Mr Henry Dumanian!!
We all do respect.. but you have no clue as to what Diaspora truly means.. Just because some organizations did not do what they were suppose to do, it does not mean everyone who lives outside of Armenia stood aside and did nothing to assist Armenia and its people..
In addition, you don't know me personally and you don't know what I have done to support my family, friends and Armenia in general.. so please don't go around and accuse people for saying what they truly feel and want to do.. unfortunately, i am only one person and not an army or a govt body.. i can't only do so much and all my efforts from more times than none feel like are being wasted because people such as yourself look down upon people living in Diaspora.. and that is discouraging.. however, the more discouraging it is, the more people should stand up, brush up and do even more.. no matter little it is... as LONG AS THEY do something...
So i would ask you sir to spare me your spiteful and negative feelings toward Diaspora.. I understand that the "Diaspora" you are talking about sure exists and I dont' disagree with you.. However, the DIASPORA i am talking about consists of people who are dedicated and willing to create change by hard work and persistance.. and it will be a disgrace for you to discredit their work and their dedication..... again, one person can't accomplish anything.. it has to be a joint venture.. and I already know you are not willing to be part of that join venture.. at least i hope not..
Thank you
Gayane
Ragnar,
Thank you for pointing out a not-so-obvious ramification of refusing to research what happened in 1915.
Seeing how most Armenians blindly believe that the actions constitute a genocide and deem it a treason to even research the events of 1915, I think when the Armenians start to hear their opponents' (Turks) arguments, which for many will be for the first time in their lives, they will be surprised.
Unfortunately, the Serj Sargsyan's “government” (or rather elites) are clients of West and Turks, they will in the most probability kill this new House/Senate Genocide Recognition Resolution as well. This can very easily happen by a single meeting of Hillary with Nalbadyan.
I admire Mr. Sassounian for his patriotism and courage, but he must understand by now that Serj Sargasyan and most of the 64 members of the Hanrabedakan and the other two pro-Protocol coalition parties have put Armenian for sale (as simple as that). Therefore, any presumption for analysis at this point must be based on this motif.
We should not hope anything patriotic to come out of Serj's government, unless of course some of his party members start to defect his foolish policy “roadmaps”.
A simple proof of my argument comes from the diplomatic mishandling of the Genocide Recognition issue by Serj so far. Guess what? He shot his own foot with it. That's the best he could sacrifice for our Fatherland. Don't expect more.
I am still trying to gather video footage of his (i.e. Serj's), during the Artsakh war, I believe there are none that look good so far. If anyone has any video information that shows that Serj was indeed patriotically active during Artsakh, please send me a link (or put on YouTube). I believe that as a defense minister during Artsakh war, he was sleeping in his office most of the time, and his tasks were limited to simply relaying commands from Vasken Sarksyan to the field commanders, and nothing more...
Why Vasken Sarksyan was eliminated? Well, go on YouTube and see it yourself. This brave man was so patriotic that he was dancing "sherjbar"s with his fedayies. He even sang for them before they went to battle. We need people like Vasken and not cowards and Western Komsomols like Serj.
May I also point out that, while this issue seems like very much on the agenda of Armenian people, for the Turkish people (we are talking about a 72 million people of very different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, some of whom are Anatolians but many of whom immigrated from the Balkans and Caucases and elsewhere during 19th, 20th centuries, coming from diverse Ottoman backgrounds together with their own tragedies and stories to tell), the issue is not a part of every day life. Most Turkish people are already at peace with the events. Therefore, I think rumours like "unless this is rectified, Turkey can never be fully democratic" are highly exaggerated.
Great Article! However the Armenian Genocide Resolution will again be squashed by the Turkish infested state department and further I'm not convinced Sargsyan can even read or write.
Avetis, therefore you too believe that "Turks are alienating the Azeris and surely we as the most wise Armenian administration will leverage this to our best advantage." Forget about all the x and y nonsense. Anyone can put together a "hydrocarbon" crossword puzzle if they want to waste their time. Tell me, then what is the meat of your admiration? What is it that you agree so much with?
The problem in Turkey is the Kemalist nationalist version of identity: the truth of the genocide is such a threat it must officially remain in denail - to the tune of millions of dollars and government effort in the face of world opinion to the contrary
There is a whole scholarly book
ONE whole scholarly book? If you wish to compare facts, you'd better do it within the ENTIRE body of genocide scholarship on this subject. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the International Association of Genocide Scholars and check worldwide body of scholarship against your one book
I have always been at a lost to understand why the Armenian Government has never vigorously supported the Armenian Genocide Resolutions in the US Congress. While the Turkish government works overtime and sends government representatives to furiously fight it every year, the Armenian Government has always been largely silent. Why is that? It makes no sense as affirmation of the Genocide is to the geopolitical advantage of Armenia.
Good point Harut an appropriate open letter to our U.S. Rrepresentatives would help but the true patriots of Armenia should send it, not the TRAITOR that calls himself President of Armenia.
He no longer is working in the interest of Armenia, but rather against it!
Well written comments by all, thank you. This shows that we can talk to each other regardless of the difference in our opinions. The fact that all Armenians showed a united front during the Gharabagh war proves we can act together when it is necessary.
Having different opinions is very natural to all races and communities and is nothing to be worried about as it allows us to consider issues from all angles, as long as we reach a consensus and act together.
Coming from different backgrounds and countries is a situation that was imposed upon us when our homeland was torn apart on many occasions in history. This is a fact we should recognise and accept each other as equals and fellow Armenians. In fact this diversity is to our advantage as we each bring with us different strengths and experiences for our common good. The different immigrants to America helped to make it the richest and strongest country it is.
The Armenian Government should consult all Armenians on matters of national importance as it cocerns us all, both in Armenia and the Diaspora. The final decision, however, taking all points into cosideration, should lie with the Armenian government.
Ragnar,
The very difficulty you are having with the scant direct (or even indirect) evidence of an intent or a plan or a policy to kill off a particular group in Anatolia during WWI, and this, in spite of a century of intense research and investigation, clearly demonstrates the point some Turks make. Note that no one denies that ethnic cleansing did take place and that is exactly what the policy was and documented so clearly.
Aside from some ultra-nationalist elements, many Turks do not think this is a potential belmish no matter what we all decide to call it.
I suspect why so many Turks, including myself, get incensed with the allegations of genocide is the blatant disregard for evidence, cause-and effect and totally one-sided representations and then fabrications. You must be aware of the fabrications and forgeries that have helped built up some of the genocide mythology.
Turkish war of independence, how and and under what conditions it was fought and won, price paid, after more than a decade of devestating wars preceding it, is well documented reality on the other hand.
As Huseyin has pointed out, Turks are in general not hiding from any facts, but they have actually reconciled with them, and not losing as much sleep or face as Armenians would like them to. I am generalizing a lot here of course, as there is a spectrum of opinions on this in Turkish society, much broader than the monolithic Armenian view. Armenians started a war, fought it and lost it big. This is not the first or last time it happened in history. We call it history becasue there is no do over.
At the end of the day, I really could care less who was responsible for what etc. Ottomans have already paid a price. Some of their leaders have been hunted like animals by the Armenain assasins. Some have been prosecuted and even hanged.
On the other hand Armenian leaders who have committed unspeakable crimes (my grandfather witnessed it, his family suffered it, how much "scholarly" evidence you think I need to study!?) against women and children and wounded behind the lines, and those who have the most responsibility for the tragedy that has fallen on Armenians, have never ever faced the music. They are heros today. In fact, their policies and regime are still intact and at work right here.
They still think that they could as a nation and church hatch plans to forcibly remove chunks of a state, hit them in their hour struggle and pain, openly collaborate with an enemy, take up arms and kill, and not expect any backlash or reaction. Have you ever heard of such one sided morality?
That is why I say that Armenians In general have a very long way to go before they can demand apologies and accuse others of not facing facts.
Karekin,
You point is well taken, but history has already condemned Talats and Envers and Cemal Pasa (least politician of all, whose 4th Army actually fed and settled Armenian refugees in Lebanon and Syria despite a crippling drought, locust, famine, disease and overcrowding. Conditions were made worse when the Allies blocked all food shipments and help in the region. Ironic, eh?) and they have paid a price.
Believe me , if it were possible to go back to that time, before Armenians, Turks would be at their throats for dragging the country into that awful war. They are never mentioned in a positive light in Turkey. I am not that harsh on them personally. Enver was not given much of a choice by the British. Another topic. In any case, there is politics too. The young republic had to badmouth the old regime to strengthen its legitimacy. All regimes do that.
Turkish national myth requires a complete rejection of the Ottoman culture, including Islam. That was the only way Ataturk could start a new regime and republic, and a new nation, or so he thought. A look at Middle East today makes me think he was right. Yes, much is thrown out and explains some of the identity crisis in the country. Ottomans left behind a lot more than Turks acknowledge, including many of the institutions that enabled the Republic. Ataturk was an Ottoman officer first people tend to forget. As certain topics become less taboo, some of these facts are now investigated and interpreted in a different light finally. Reason for the neo-Ottomanism we hear so often lately. I am not sure though what exactly you mean with discontent with the past.
Murat,
My ancestors may have been fed to the lions but not necessarily as christians but by way of prisoners of war from Roman campaigns into Armenia. I don't think I need an apology from you since you weren't there in 1915. Your understanding is what I would much prefer but I don't believe you understand yet. There has been quite a bit of distortion by the Turkish governtment over the decades. It's easy to do when you've won militarily, govern a decent chunk of land and other major powers are willing to hush up to have you as an ally, a customer of weapons and a host for their bases.
Yes there have been quite a few Turkish intellectuals who have spoken up rather bravely and their contribution is very important. I have heard at least two speak when he came to the US for a conference. But they are not large in numbers. Hrant being Armenian did get quite a bit of attention and also because he tried to directly engage the rest of the country through his newspaper. I'm curious, what did Hrant mean to you given the things he spoke of and stood up for.
What I see in Turkey is a pride, nationalism, superiority complex, inferirority complex and a bit of victimhood all wrapped into one. You can see this in a billion Indians as well. Armenians don't need to be in the G20 to feel the same thing. We humans are such contractory animals.
Another aspect of the psychology that plays a major part in Turkey is when you've been at the top for so long, you can only go down and this fear can be very strong. This was definitely coming into play leading up to WWI when the empire was in decline and former subjects no longer wanted to be under Ottoman rule. Over the past years we have indeed seen Turkey come into it's full potential of demographics, economics and geography. Before then was fear and insecurity of national cohesion, and minorities in Turkey were always suspect. This has not gone away yet. Armenian private schools in Istanbul would not dare teach *any* Armenian history given how closely the state keeps an eye on them (at least the last time I checked).
The seriousness of exploitation of Ottoman Armenians against the empire is the backstabbing characterization I'm talking about. Given that this is used as a justification for the deportations, how extensive and serious was this threat when 100s of thousands of Armenians were so easily marched into the deserts like sheep?
Realist,
You have to admit, the trial of a real life war criminal is much more exciting news. I think people are watching to see if he'll croak before the trial concludes, just as it happened to Millasovich.
Karekin,
Interestingly there are some Armenians in the diaspora who still speak (maybe even read) old Ottoman Turkish because it was passed down through the family.
Murat,
You still fail to answer the main question of the logic of genocide related to the ideology of the CUP posed by Bedros Effendi. The efforts to substantiate the mass killings of these minorities through the small scale peasant "revolts" deviates from the overarching intent of the government. Based on the above regressions, you've made it a habit to avoid the causal links of such ideologies to the actions and chain of events that would fulfill them.
Moreover, your references are less than compelling to say the least. Like McCarthy, it seems you've reached that wall of inevitable clarity, and your attempts to escape it have been futile.
Like you've said so often, facts are facts and myths are myths. You yourself have come to know the facts, and continue to regard them as myths for whatever intensive purposes that suit you. But denying the suffering and victimization of so many will not bring your family members back, as it will not bring back mine and the countless others that suffered. That being said, May they ALL rest in some semblance of peace.
My starting point was the problematic position Roger W. Smith finds himself, and genocide research more generally, in its dealings with the Armenian fate of 1915-16. He writes: quote: Our position on the protocols is to make sure that the incontestability of the Armenian Genocide is neither ignored nor called into question. Unquote. My point is that to protest a proposed commission of historians by repetitiously asserting that something is incontestable which in fact has been contested since the issue was brought on the international agenda testifies both to poor attitude to research and poor politics.
I believe Roger W. Smith and genocide scholars should engage in concrete debate and start producing arguments to those who are sceptical, and try to make the best out of the coming commission. This is how he can make sure that his point of view is heeded, but not by insisting that his view is incontestable anyhow, or by producing citations by those who agree with him.
When this is said, I agree with Smith that one cannot reformulate a question of a crime to a question of a conflict with “faults on both sides”. But my point is something else.
Hüseyin, you write:
Seeing how most Armenians blindly believe that the actions constitute a genocide and deem it a treason to even research the events of 1915,
Comment:
From 25 years of contacts with Turkish friends and Turkish research on the the matter I am inclined to disagree with you. The blindness is more on the Turkish side, since opposite opinions even are prosecuted (even if Akcams 1994 book never was suppressed in Turkey, and even if dissenting voices, if I am not mistaken, also receive a very cold attitude in Armenia).
Further, the Armenian research on 1915-16 is enormous and of course indispensable. Nobody can ignore it.
You also write:
Most Turkish people are already at peace with the events.
I believe most Turkish people who hold the received Turkish opinion on the events are not at peace with the events. On the contrary they feel unjustly attacked and the accusations from a great part of the world are indeed troubling them. And this will go on. The issue will not be ignored.
While Armenians have been busy over the last 95 years bickering over whether land reparations and justice are necessary as a form of redress for the Armenian genocide, Holocaust survivors and their descendants have been very actively pursuing justice on many fronts. Securing reparations through legal means and ensuring the prosecution of unrepentant perpetrators is an objective they achieve to this very day. Another Ex-Nazi SS was put on trial in Germany today. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has a most wanted list. Restitution claims continue to be brought before the courts to this day.
And while all this justice abounds under your noses, some people still cling to the Armenian genocide recognition only mindset. While Holocaust survivors race to hunt for the last Nazi's and collect their rightful belongings, Armenians remain indecisive about justice as indicated by the comments above and the Armenian governments own implosion to turkey's campaign of denial.
Justice, not recognition, is what you should be chanting about in April.
An interesting and insightful article. Thank you for this thoughtful expression of your views on the challenges to our moral and ethical principles as well as to our devotion to our heritage and homeland. I would only add that the dichotomy between these two impulses is often presented as a false choice - one between our past/future, homeland/diaspora, republic/genocide, etc.
Seeking justice for the Armenian Genocide is not only entirely consistent with supporting the security of the Armenian homeland, it, in fact, represents a vital element of Armenia's very survival.
Mr Ragnar,
By your own arguments you are violating scientific reasoning, so don't play science in an Orwellian doublespeak manner. If you are a true science scholar, then get back to the libraries and do your homework before shooting your own foot with your anti-scientific arguments.
How many times must Archimedes prove his buoyancy law for an ignorant fool to believe in it before drowning in the sea? How many times you need to test Newton's laws by jumping off a cliff. Have you ever thought that your argument may have this same effect.
Please get back to philosophy books and learn some good Descartes and Kent before desecrating their sacred wisdom by your ignorance.
Have you not read Odepus Rex? More than 30,000 good hearted intellectuals in Turkey have read the Rex and came to their terms. It is perhaps your turn to play Descartes on yourself.
IT IS BETTER TO BE BLIND THAN HAVE A BLIND MIND.
An important article today in the NY Times about Turkey's reliability as an ally and changing position vis a vis European Union... why is it not here to discuss? (You may delete my comment as it's off topic for this article; I wasn't sure where to send it otherwise.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/world/europe/28turkey.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=turkey&st=cse
Murat, I feel you simplify. I am critical of the way genocide research has handled this question, but I must confess I tend simply to dismiss Turkish historians on the subject of the Armenian fate in 1915-16. This is because the issue is not addressed in a serious manner. I don’t know how we will continue this debate, I can only provide some examples. Feroz Ahmad, in his “Turkey, the quest for identity” (2003), mentions the massacres of non-muslims on page 66 and 67, and repeats the assertion that Armenians only were deported from war zones. But they were deported from areas very far from the war zones. Then he chooses to mention that the German commander, Liman von Sanders, defended the policy of deporting Greeks from the Ayvalik district hardly very relevant. Then he mentions that the deportations more or less stopped in 1916. This book was published in 2003 and whatever you can say of it, it does not address the Armenian fate at all. Even on one and a half page you should write more on a subject which induces parliaments all over the world to pass reslutions cirected at Turkey. The claims of other historians are not mentioned at all. To me this is not serious writing. If the majority of historians have assertions on a theme, you must at least indicate that you know about these assertions and indicate, however summarily, how you will answer if you disagree.
Another example: Salahi Sonyel writes about the relocation in “The Great War and the tragedy of Anatolia”(2000), a book purportedly on the situation of Armenians and Turks. He writes about the “relocation” in ten pages but has some 100 pages on Armenian sabotage, Armenian intrigues, Armenian atrocities, and so on. These ten pages mostly concern the expressed ittihadist policies, as they are given in official documents. Needless to say this is no way to answer allegations of a secret policy of extermination. There is no attempt to refute these charges. After all this it is said in one sentence that 3-400.000 of the 700.000 Armenians who were deported, died as a result of war and guerrilla activities in the areas they passed through (p.122), but we know that the majority of these deportations took place from june 1915 to the end of 1915, and the convoys passed through areas that became theatres of war only with the Russian offensive in early 1916, if at all. This simply will not do.
As I say I have no definite answer to the most important questions. However, I believe, as I said, that the outcomes of attempts at substantiating one’s claims leaves the one or the other party with a greater burden of proof. To take one last example: Kamuran Gürün clams that more than 1000 persons were prosecuted by the ittihadists for atrocities against Armenian deportees. Taner Akcam said that these prosecutions had to do with unlawful appropriation of Armenian property, and not with atrocities. Then Yusuf Halacoglu claimed in 2008 that he had proofs that many people in fact were prosecuted and convicted for atrocities. He even cited the documents. Then Akcam went through the specific documents and reiterated that they only dealt with cases of people stealing Armenian property. After this Halacoglu was silent. He had no answer, We who try to follow these things as outsiders note that it seems that those who killed Armenian deportees in 1915-16 were never prosecuted, let alone convicted. What are we then to believe about state policies at the time?
Thank you for this poem. It is beautiful and reminds me of prayer time I would have with my Nene. A very similar prayer that she would pray, and now, one that my mother prays with my children.
In my opinion president Serzh Sargsyan handled this issue all wrong.
A better approach to give Armenia maximum leverage in regards to the influence of the the U.S. and Turkey alliance...would have been to play up the incites to war with Azerbaijan. Just as Azerbaijan did. The result would have been more leverage for negotiating with Turkey and the U.S. since any conflict in the region, as demonstrated with Georgia recently, would give Russia the excuse it is looking for to come in with overwhelming force to "control the region". Giving the the Russians that excuse they are waiting for to neutralize American/Turkish influence in the region was a card we had that was not played by Sargsyan.
In addition, the inner optimist in me hopes that the protocols were a "public" deal made in conjunction with the "private" deal to recognize the genocide and pay reparations. All deals that involve "saving face" have a pubic and private side. (remember the Cuban Missile Crisis). In this case...his dealings behind closed doors and alienating the rest of the Armenian government and diaspora...might be to take all the credit for such a deft maneuver.
On the other hand the inner realist in me fears that if Serzh Sargsyan's achilles heel is a big ego...it can be appeased by U.S. and Turkish gestures for reconciliation that doesn't amount to much more than ego strokes that lead Armenia down a dead end path.
Turkey is shopping for a study - any study - that concludes that the events of 1915-23 were not genocide.
Turkey will keep shopping until it finds such a study. The UN Subcommission study of 1985 concluded "genocide" and so Turkey dismissed it. The TARC/ICTJ study concluded "genocide" and so Turkey dismissed it. The People's Tribunal in Paris concluded "genocide" sand so Turkey dismissed it.
If enough studies -10, 100, 1000 - are done on 1915-23, eventually, simply by the laws of probability (or laws of money), there will be a study that concludes that it was not genocide or that it cannot determined with a high degree of certainty.
In fact, if you study ANY issue enough times, eventually you will find one that comes out with the conclusion you want, even if you have to pay for it. Turkey will find such a study someday. It may even find one in the "joint commission" because Armenia was unwise enough to give Turkey the opportunity.
Am I the only one who has noticed that the Armenian government is thoroughly incompetent when it comes to the genocide? It is said that the Armenian genocide has been part of Armenia's foreign policy.
Really? Prove it. Due to that government's incompetence, I have seen next to nothing that the Armenian government has ever done to advance the genocide issue except a few conferences, if that.
In other words, the present Armenian government is incompetent, unknowledgeable, and totally unfit to conduct any study of the genocide. I would almost trust a Turkish denialist to do a better job. Seriously, I bet that Erdogan knows more about the subject than Sargsian does.
It also seems to have escaped the notice of the arithmetically challenged among us that no commission composed even partly of Turks will ever be able to come to a unanimous decision on the genocide.
Meanwhile, for the next few years Armenians around the world will be sucked into the machinations of this absurd commission when their energy and money could be better spent elsewhere.
But I am glad to see Armenian American historians speak out. Funny how they were so quick to jump to the defense of the young Turkish scholar arrested in Armenia a few years ago for supposedly trying to take some books out of the country, but when it comes to the protocols, they have been uncharacteristically silent - except when the Armenian Weekly happened wake them from their tenure-protected slumber a couple of weeks ago.
Fuuny how academicians can bore their poor students to death with their lectures three times a week for 50 minutes for 9 months a yearm but when it comes to saying just a few things against the "joint commission," they have nothing to say.
Perhaps it is just as well. Most of them are better suited to the raft of lovey-dovey, ooey-gooey "mutual understanding," reconciliation panels that the Armenian American community has been subjected to lately with the connivance of certain - how shall I put this? - Armenian political organizations.
Ragnar,
With the self-syled scientific arguments you are making, there can be no end to this argument of course. That is hardly surprising in a forum like this.
You seem to lose the sight of the forest from trees. Is that what bothers you the most about many Turkish scholars work, that they did not pay enough attention to decades of Armenian genocide industry output? That in your opinion negates what they uncovered and presented as historical facts? Did they not uncover enough fabrications to discredit some of these so-called scientific works?
While you point out various discrepencies in reporting of the prosecutions of various Ottoman officials, you ignore the point that there were prosecutions and people were taken to court. On the other hand a discrepency like 1.5 to 2.5M does not elicit a similar response. British were involved and very eager I might add to discredit these Turks who gave them such a hard time on the battle field, and still they could not find a smoking gun.
Of course, best of all is the ignoring of the very relevant facts of the matter burried in some esoteric argument about scientific methodology. Millions of descendants of Anatolian Armenians are scattered around the world, including where they were relocated. Some nice trick for people who were supposed to have been killed on the average 3 times in my estimation.
No policiy of extermination, no such orders, no such plans, no gas chambers, no concentration camps, no mass graves (few that have been found contained mostly Muslims!), no killing squads, not a single memoire of a single Ottoman officer ever receiving or executing such orders... I mean we can go on and on... some scientific methodology you have! As a scientist, I am embaressed.
My profound thanks to Mitch Kehetian and Manooshag for their heartfelt appreciative remarks. Reactions like this underscore the value of all the time and effort Peter Balakian and I put into producing this English version of Armenian Golgotha.
Mr Haro Mherian,
I understand that you disagree and are provoked. What do you expect me to answer to this type of message? Regarding the "I apologize" movement in Turkey this is of course a very important development, but it simply bypasses the whole question of whether there was a genocide or not. They use the word "catastrophe". If this is the right road for Turks and Armenians, all the better. But this was not my point.
Murat
this is not esoteric. Sonyel simply does not go into the debate that he all the same indirectly purports to adress. You dont have to be a researcher to see this. Neither is it endless. If we have 20 more examples of Turkish scholars simply not being able to prove their point this will be more telling than any allegedly comprehensive proof of what happened.
murat
one last word. Are you sure you are not confusing the idea of a thorough analysis with that of an endless analysis? Isnt that a way to make it easier for oneself, to answer specific questions with allegations that the debate will be endless?
Random Armenian....you are probably correct. There was alot of Turkish spoken in my grandparent's house, as my great-grandmother spoke no Armenian at all and there were books printed w/ Armenian characters but when read, were actually Turkish in language. With 900 years of co-existence and cultural cross breeding, it is inevitable.
Murat: I understand what you're saying, but I guess the question remains - if, as you say, the CUP triumverate is not viewed all that kindly by history, what about Turkey? Why at this point would anyone want to defend their actions or the outcomes of their actions? I mean, they pushed Turkey into a disasterous war, bankrupted the country on many levels and in many ways, pursued a divide & conquer strategy that ruined Turkey and set it back for a very long time. I think the reality is that for Armenians, something as simple as an apology would go a very long way to helping bridge this gap, which seems insurmountable, but really isn't.
Levon Marashlian´s arguments are very much to the point.One can very well surmise that turkish diplomacy is ,has been steadfastly making efforts to divert international(especially worldwide international) attention from already PROVEN facts by above mentioned commissions ,thus gaining precious time for their "other" intended projects.Viz., firstly to delay Armenian Genocide recognition,as long as possible,secondly to by and by distort actual history -facts ,as much as possible in the eyes of the int´l public,making the authenticity of it less so,thridly and this above all, weaken Armenian unanimousity -as to pursuit of our goals-rendering it incapable of bringing it to a final decision favourable to our righteous demands for reparations.
I ,personally do not believe ,cannot bring myself to it,that even if we gain recognition by many more states(what Prof.Yves Ternon indirectly advised a gathering of ours ,at 17 Rue Bleu;Paris,April 9,2009)ending his discourse by" Parlement a Parlement"..we cannot go on the premise of a Sevres Treaty ,not even ratified by U.S. Congress,claiming the 6 Vilayets...
In spanish a saying goes:-"uno tambien puede vivir sonañdo" One can also live by dreams...
A. There are 16 million k u r d s on the Western Armenian lands today.They cannot by any means be removed from those lands.We may indeed conduct negotiations with them dialogue with them to come to a mutually acceptal land parceling out(if that comes to pass indeed).Best we can hope for ,is a third of it or so,or even less...
B.What indeed we can claim is BLOOD MONEY-precedents of which exist. On another Armenian site an attorney just back from Armenia ,where he participated at the Mindiaspora´s organized Conference(this by the by this servidor-myself had suggested several times over that instead of like the 2002 and 2006 and the First Armenia-Diaspora Conference,two thousand meeting at once..should be classified as per work -profession type).This gentleman, very kindly pretends to have Armenians repatriate to Homeland etc.,-always on (each one on his own-meaning each Armenian present org. on own) and with meagre American style fund raising..
Comes to mind just a few days ago CIVILITAS foundation´s ..even $100.- a piece contributions...
How can big projects in such fashion have any tangible success-go figure that out-Like the Founder, then FM at last 2006 Conference declared with $50.- a piece gift baskets(full of Armenian dry fruits) to be sold in all Diaspora churches ,organizations, and with funds obtained reach the far flung Armenian villages and revive them ,stopping immigration etc.,.¡
C.great Turkey knows(their diplomacy,i.e.) full well that Armenians are an un-organized lot and by dividing them further through this same protocols..they can attain their objective of keeping, especially the Armenian Diaspora, in such a status quo,which suits them perfectly.No unanimity.
D. If we really mean business, then we must put our own house (the Diaspora) in order,before attempting to size up with them.They very cunningly ( I never think they are clever)manueuvered the RA´s erroneous initiative-for I think it was ours-of uttering"without any preconditions"..
Imagine a people,now a nation/state,who has been so much persecuted by grat Turkey is forthcoming with such an invitation...it should have been vice versa...bygones are bygones.
Nonetheless, not too late, to hinder the PROCESS.It must be hindered ,it (both RA and Diaspora)should now take measures to prevent it from going further,unless at the very least Genocide Recognition is inclusive of negotiations ahead.
Most important if we aspire to some day become stronger as both a republic and Diaspora,ties between these two segments of our people ought to be thoroughly studied and strengthened.Just by declaring "Ari Dun"..and/or said attorney´s haphazard aid or Civilitas¨s fundling -raisings...we cannot achieve our objectives.Mobilize we must and that on a nationwide,programmed mode.My humble "paper" that for 4.5 years was on the Armeniadiaspora.com site ,has suggested the "mechanism" for getting the Diaspora-Armenia enhanced relation rolling.Now it is on my own site .Please visit it,it is on top of my web page www.ARMENENIDAD-worldwide.org (2006 Conference).And thanks for reading me.
Hama Haigagani Siro,
gaytzag palandjian
The historical sub-committee not a problem. The problem is Mr. Bazaz, Mr. Aghvan Hovsepyan, Dr. Radik Martirosyan, and Mr. Kocharyan.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
The Armenian memory of Genocide is only memory! Genocide memory is not killing. It is Armenian collective PTSD. The real problem has a few names -- Mr. Aghvan Hovsepyan, Mr. Radik Martirosyan, Mr. Sarksyan, Mr. Nalbandyan. Poor Armenia
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
No, I cannot talk for the 30,000 or more intellectuals that under an oppressive 301 Turkish rule have the courage to proclaim the truth, whereas you seem to be blind under no oppression at all. If they had the chance to survive telling the truth they would have not only disagreed with you, but also disprove that you are not an scholar at all.
If you are really a science scholar, than behave like one. Study truths and not falsehoods. Criticize the falsifiers and denialists and not their victims. For otherwise, one day, the Genocide makers will also wipe you out.
By the way, I am not provoked at all. It's only I pity your ignorance and blindness. I also pity that you have put so much effort on a stand that is based on lies and falsehood. Your stand is pitiful because it does not make sense, unless of course you are a Kemalist Turk or are doing this business for profit.
Ragnar,
I suppose at some point we need to define what makes an analysis exhaustive. I mean, if you do not find the body of research done by Turkish, Armenian and others exhaustive, then of course, as you and I point out this is indeed endless.
If someone claims they have a golden egg, then all he has to do is to produce it. By that, I do not mean tell stories or show paintings of the egg . Or, if I claim there was no golden egg, then what I need to do is to show that in all the possible places to look for it, we have not found it. Can you imagine even the staunchest "denialist" ( how do you like that term, it makes even argument a sin and a losing proposition!) confronted with a golden egg, denying its existence while face to face with the darn egg? I would take a picture of the egg and this fellow and make it a poster!
Now you seem to claim that because there are a few stones in the Gobi desert under which someone did not look, we can not say conclusively that we have studied the topic exhaustiveley. If that is the case, then we may as well stop here. Is this not the argument the UFO believers employ? I can not scientifically prove their non-exictence either.
It is clear who the burden of proof belongs to in my opinion.
This has little to do with the quality of the works published by the Turkish scholars or others. More important parameter is if there is any fabrication in the works. Is there any fact that is not backed up? I do not mean mostly subjective anlysis or opinions of course, which many push on us as proof.
I do agree though that the quality of writing and presentation of many, especially early, Turkish historians has been horrendous. Many of them could not help being defensive, not very professional and as you point out presented arguments for one side mostly. Probably the huge body of Armenian propaganda that has accumulated over the decades when Turks did nothing about the topic has created an urgency to make up for the missing side of the narrative.
I must also point out that, Turkish narrative was also sorely missing from almost all Armenian works. That is mostly responsible for the Armenian community, diaspora in general, being so uninformed or misinformed about key details of the Armenian revolts and uprisings and that is why they can not fathom why Turks would be such insensitive "deniers" in my opinion.
To my mind, mr. Mherian, you should learn to behave before you enter a debate
Kayseri,
(I have family there, Talas actually, best manti ever! )
I am not avoiding anything, but what exactly is this "racial" motive, and what evidence? I suspect this possible explanation of CUP policies and "cause" has come about becasue of the artifical Holocaust parallels that so many have tried to construct. That is what is overreaching.
As you know, Ottomans did not have a culture or history of racial prejudice, not at the leveles it was practiced in the West. CUP itself had Armenian, Jewish and Kurdish members. Even in 1915, there were many Armenians at various levels in local governments who were given immuinity from tehcir if I am not mistaken. Ottoman parliament had many non-Muslim and Armenian members. Where is the Turkish Mein Kampf, where is the Turkish Hitler, the brown shirts, the Nazis, racist manifestos, etc.?
Why look for alternate and far-fetched motives when there are real and practical ones and CUP leaders were themselves clear about it? Armenians were trying to create a Greater Armenia on ethnically purified lands on the remains of the Empire. This was not some racially or religiously motivated paranoia. These plans were in motion as far back as Berlin Treaty. The aims and goals of various Armenian organizations were well published. Patriarch himself was rather clear about it and their collaboration and joint action with Russians were no secret. The weakness of the Ottoman rule enabled people to plot against it openly.
The privilaged minority class created, the way the Christians in the empire were ruthlessly manipulated by the colonial powers of course gave way to much resentment, but that was not a cause, on the contrary an effect and it was hardly a racially or philosophically motivated hate.
The memory of this exploitation and how it was used to break apart the country still remains in the institutional memory of the state and the people and has made it very difficult in dealing with minority issues even in modern times.
It is amusing that you refer to armed Armenian revolts as "a few harmless peasant" disturbances, but when it comes to the Armenians killed in these "insignificant" events, Armenians cite hundreds of thousands... what is wrong with this picture? Do I need to post here the picture of the Russian general receiving the key to the city of Van from the leader of the Armenian insurgency there?
Fall of major vilayets, Kars (much earlier and filled with Russian Armenians after the Muslims were pushed out), Van, Erzurum, Bitlis and Mush were not some paranoidal hallucinations, they were real and very very bloody. Armenians were fielding regular trops fighting their own country.
Do we really need to look for motives under the bed?
Mr. Ragnar,
I am not in a "debate". Don't assume by any chance that I am falling for your trap. You just proved your weak point by your last comment.
Mr. Ragnar, my grandfather was a survivor of the Genocide. So, who is to "behave" in commenting about a dragity that for you is just a "debate". This is exactly why historic commission BS should not be permitted. It is just a waste of time besides being horribly wrong.
P.S. This is my last statement for this article.
Random you say,
There has been quite a bit of distortion by the Turkish governtment over the decades. It’s easy to do when you’ve won militarily, govern a decent chunk of land and other major powers are willing to hush up to have you as an ally, a customer of weapons and a host for their bases.
Sure Turks have tried for the most part to put on their nationalistic spin, but the basic facts of the matter are rather clear still, in my mind any way.
Does not Armenia own its chunk of land? Just imagine how different things could be if Armenia then had accepted the hand Turkey extended then instead of turning into a Russian protectorate. I understand it may have been impossible to keep the bear out . Being a cold war frontier nation was not so enviable for Turks either, it set back politics, economy and democracy for decades.
"I’m curious, what did Hrant mean to you given the things he spoke of and stood up for."
Millions walked in protest. I was not there but many in my circle were. It was a tragedy and a huge loss. I have personal friends who knew him well. He was way too ahead of many Armenians and Turks. He stood against hate politics above all.
"..when you’ve been at the top for so long, you can only go down and this fear can be very strong. This was definitely coming into play leading up to WWI when the empire was in decline and former subjects no longer wanted to be under Ottoman rule."
I asure you, last century of the Empire was nothing but a long trail of humiliation, war, death, pain and suffering for the Ottomans. It was the sick man of Europe. There was no sense of "being on top" left.
Of course nations wanted indepenedence. Time of the empires and living side by side was gone. Problem with the Ottomans was that they were not really colonialists. They were not spread out for economic gains alone like Spanish or British or Dutch. They actually settled and became part of the populations. When a Balkan nation became independent, it was not just the Ottoman governor and the Defterdar who had to pack and leave... millions of Turkish and Muslim residents also had to be uprooted.
This was somewhat feasible in the periphery of the Empire where Turks were not a majority or a thin one. But when it came to the heartland, we are now talking about the physical living space, only one left, for the Turks. There was no other place to go and run, and it is not as if there were other nations opening their arms to the Muslim masses. That was the fundemental problem with Armenian national aspirations and the problem today with Kurdish nationalists.
How do you fit two nations into a single nation-state? You dont.
Murat
Thank you for your post.
I don’t think an exhaustive analysis is a utopia and that attempts at this must necessarily lead to endless bickering. I will limit my answer to this point and try to be short: first, there has been a certain convergence between the opposite positions during the last 20-30 years. If we contrast the 1977 book by the Shaws with Yves Ternon’s first book on the Armenian genocide issued in the same year, they are miles apart. Today there is more common ground in research on the theme. The dimensions of the catastrophy suffered by the Armenians is more recognised than in Shaws wild underestimation of 1977, and the actual threat of the powers to the ottoman state and the lethal effects of the ethnic cleansing of Moslems (1864, 1977-78, 1912-13) cannot be ignored today as then. Even if this has no bearing on what happened in 1915, a major source of Turkish resentment of onesided Western perceptions is being gradually removed. Everybody has read “Death and exile”. While it would on principle be possible to go on bickering indefinitely on details, this has not happened. The discussion was not endless,on certain points at least. Needless to say, Sonyel is a great improvement when comparing what he has to say in 2003 on the Armenian fate with what Stanford Shaw said in 1977.
The second is that Turkish and Armenian/Western historiography has been so divided, as inhabiting different worlds, with the one camp not relating to the other at all, that we must expect that a conscious effort by each side to relate honestly and explicitly to the arguments of the other(s) will produce an effect. Even if the debate on certain points may go on indefinitely, the area of total disagreement will shrink.
Thirdly, I believe that the public eye will have an effect like it probably had for all those who witnessed the Akcam/Halacoglu debate. It will be apparent to the audience who has trouble defending ones position and who is on safer ground. This is how research communities often function. As Halacoglu got into trouble with his claims that offenders against Armenian deportees were prosecuted, genocide researchers have repeatedly gotten into trouble when they try to PROVE genocidal extent in the ittihadist elite. I am not so much thinking about the Andonian papers as the wildly improbable “minutes from the Central Committee of CUP” by Mevlanzade Rifat which by the way is uncritically cited by Anette Höss in her dissertation on the 1919-23 trials. The dissertation is hailed as a landmark by many genocide scholars. Further - the public eye notices the degree to which scholars like Dadrian, Akcam and Kevorkian slip into conjecture when dealing with genocidal intent. The weaknesses of their scholarship on this point, while impressive on others, is noted by many who are highly critical of the received Turkish position.
I hope this clarifies my position. Whether I am right or wrong is of course another matter.
However, I should add that I am often misunderstood. Primarily I am a stickler for dialogue. If the dialogue gets better according to certain specifiable criteria, and there exists a critical audience, we must expect results. But I add that both parties must be prepared in principle to see their cherished beliefs discarded. Of course, this also holds for my belief in dialogue.
Hagop jan,
While the essay has some weak points in it, compared to the hysteria and paranoid filled material produced by many Armenians in the diaspora today it is the best I have yet seen. I am looking for sound analysis of the current events that seriously takes into account the region's geopolitics.
Murat....you say....'Armenians started a war, fought it and lost it big'. I think many historians and scholars would find this assertion a bit far-fetched. You've probably been taught this since infancy, but let's face facts: Sultan Abdul Hamid launched countrywide massacres of hundreds of thousands of innocent Ottoman Armenian citizens in the 1890's, as a way of frightening them all into submission, even though similar measures were never issued against the other minorities in such a brutal way. If, as you say, Armenians 'started a war'... it's hard to imagine how they conducted that.....was it with tanks? planes? an imperial army? Please explain. It's like saying the stone throwing Palestinians are launching a war on Israel. Get real. For most observers, it's about self-defense. A war takes place between states or equal players. If anything, the real 'war' or offensive, was launched by the Ittihadists - who were now in charge of a bankrupt empire - against the largest and oldest of Turkey's minorities...with the goal of stealing their land, their wealth and their businesses. Armenians had every right to defend themselves and if that meant some kind of retaliation against the superior forces of the empire, so be it. Didn't the Bosnians have a right to self-defense against the Serbs? I really fear that the Turkish resistance to issuing an apology to Armenians comes from an inability to say 'never again', as the Kurds are, in many ways, the new Armenians in Turkey, and who at any moment, could feel the wrath of the state and military.
What you say makes sense to me now, mr. Mherian. I will not insist on any debate with you. You are of course in your full right.
I for one, welcome Dr. Astarjian back to the pages of The Armenian Weekly, fondly recalling that he appeared in this publications years ago. I looked forward to his column with anticipation. His commentary was never dull, frequently explicit, and always informative. His opinions are strong and frequently controversial but that just adds to his magnetism. He succeeds in eliciting lively dialogue from his readers, giving them a platform for an exchange of opinions. Welcome back, Doctor. I appreciate the courage the editorial staff has shown by having you return to the pages of The Armenian Weekly.
BAK
Love the snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...that's exactly what it is (although I'm not sure how close we were to victory). The whole thing makes me ill. How could anyone think the deck would not be stacked against the Armenians in this case (in any case)? For God's sake, power is on the side of evil, no? Turkey? The US? Who stands for truth and justice these days? Not the big boys who pull the strings, that's for sure. Again, I feel ill. I can hardly stand to read the back and forth. We are the world's most gullible people.
This is to Haro.I would like to make a slight comment.You probably know that there was this AIM Armenian magazine,publisshed in L.A and then simultaneously in RA.Well, I presume you know edito-establisher of which was V.Oskanian and Salpi Ghazarian.That is besides the point.Main issue i would to bring to your and others´attn: John Hugh a contributing correspondent to AIM, at that point of time sent a report -with photos- also printed in same magazine , stating that V Sargsyan-later defense Ministre and shot at even further ahead...went to Nagornyi Karabagh NK/Artsakh after war was over there ,at the head of a column of a convoy carrying food etc., to the people there.WHO TO BELIEVE? YOUR REPORT ABOVE AND/OR jOHN hUGH´S..FOR God´s sake..
Whereas I also saw on H1 Armenian T.V.(then) how serj was directing operations in NK...how´s that?
You see I try to be impartial..but then there are so many such -probably erroneous concepts -of who did what .Best is to refer to such photos,magazines and see for oneself.It is easy to dig up AIM from old offices...at L.A or Armenia offices in Yerevan...
One thing that the Armenians worldwide can be happy about is that when in 1923 at Lausanne they did not(the powers to be then) allow Avedis Aharonian and Boghos Nubar to enter therein.NOW THE TRIUMPHANT ENTRY OF CHARLES AZNAVOUR AND OTHER ARMENIANS, was shown on Int´l T.V.s in short at a meeting where Hillary flew in, Javier Solana ,Lavrov et al present they gave us ATTENTION T THOSE....YOU FIGURE OUT WHOthis time over.Because we ARE THERE NOW ON THE INT´L POLITICAL SCENE AS WE HAVE A BANAG-ARMY-not so big as the turkish one -well fed , well trained and well armed by you figure out who? but we are there....
SO, INSTEAD OF CRITICIZING OURS, TALK ABOUT WHAT they have brought upon us and we still believe that they will be clement to us...I insist we understand , if we aspire and believe that we are an educated people(not yet with social formation though) and respect and tolerate ea other to be very patient and await the outcome of these protocols.I can rest assured that the Armenians both in Homeland and Diaspora ,are at least united in persueing our rights.No any chief, pres. or the like can go AGAINST THEIR PEOPLE´s WILL.
SO TAKE CARE AND BE PATIENT.WE ARE FAMED TO BE AN OVERPATIENT PEOPLE...
ONE THING WE OUGHT TO DO THOUGH IS BEGIN RE-ORGANIZING THE DIAPOSRA-OUR OWN HOUSE IS IN SHAMBLES...FRAGMENTED CENTRIFUGAL..READ ME PLEASE,if you so wish in my web page...www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org THANKS
BEST AND
HAMAHAIGAGANI siro,
GAYTZAG PALANDJIAN
If provocation was a defense to genocide, then Rwanda, Somalia and Bosnia would not be genocide. moreover, those who rely on provocation to defend killing unarmed civilians forget that it was the state which began the organized murderof Armenan civilians long before 1914-1915:, 1894-1896 Hamidian massacres, and Adana, over 330,000 killed in all. Armenians had the right to arm themselves despite the death penalty for owning weapons.
If indeed provocation is a defense to murdering on ethnic grounds, then the Armenians who alegedly killed Moslems in 1918 were provoked by what their relatives had been subjected to. Its a two way street.
I too am looking for serious analysis, and I did not find it above. The above article lacks in the balanced amount of what you categorize as "paranoia." In my experience, in matters of security with known hostiles, while you should not become irrationally phobic and should not cause outright pandemonium and be opportunistic, you cannot be too "paranoid." My "paranoia", and I am not afraid to admit it, comes from the complementary factors of 1) the utter incompetence of Armenia's security apparatus, 2) the brainwashing campaign in history dirrected at the Armenian population through government controlled mass media, 3) and Turkey's experience and proven level of hostility toward Armenian existence. I have already written what it means to be "a pluralist fascist state," which is a paradox that is nevertheless a reality. No one has answered the question as to why the Armenian government needs to engage in white-washing history in order to convince its own citizenry. Can you explain to me that, if indeed this "negotiation process" is so beneficial to us all, if indeed the people are in agreement while being fully cognizant of the situation, why then do they have to be deceived on order to think as such? I think Armenians are being prepared for a trap. I think Armenians are being systematically denationalized for eventually extinction by lackeys in their own government fully engaging in brainwashing campaigns to indoctrinate in a new "peaceful paradaigm of history where we are all to blame" etc. Unless this is addressed honestly by all "analysts," then all involved are insincere. The only ones to address this problem are Papian and Ayvazyan.
It's about time the communities got organized enough to work together. This should happen on a national level. Too many interests seem to compete to get in the way. Let's make this grow.
These are very useful essays, and we must thank the Armenian Weeklyeditor for bringing them before the Armenian public.
You want to know what issue the Turks will want the commission to study? Are you ready for this? The issue, from the Turks' perspective, is this: the genocide allegedly conducted by Armenians against Turks during WW I. You know, the one where Armenians supposedly killed 1000000 trillion Muslims?
Yes, Turkey will insist that this issue be placed before "neutral historians" and given equal treatment alongside the "alleged" Armenian genocide. Oh, you thought only Armenians were going to drive the agenda of this commission? No, that's not the way "joint" commisssions work. Turks will be gievn equal time to bring up their own issues, you see.
Somehow we Armenians think that our agenda is the only agenda. Nope.
Congratulations to Turkey for its masterful job in ensnaring President Sargsian in its web.
My dear brother GAYTZAG,
First, please understand that your information about AIM will be very useful for me to put the pieces together. Your information is yet another prove on how Serj came to power. I have personally asked some questions in the past to Salpi and was not even taken worthy to be answered. My questions back then to her was exactly the Nostradamus that came true today. I do not insult Salpi by my remark here, it’s just that she did not really understand the depth of my questions back then. As for Mr Oskanyan, I have prove that he is the bigger client of the West. Dig in his recent conferences et al to convince yourself.
But again, I want very much to believe in what you, Gaytzag, are telling. Yes, it will make my heart so happy and proud to believe that underneath all these Western and Turkish slaps, the great Armenian “wolf” Serj has a clever hidden plan. But alas, the truth is truth, it’s not just the Protocols that is the issue here. It’s the last 20 years of history of Armenia getting on her feet. Yes, my critical analysis is based not only on Serj, but LTP, Vazken Manukyan, Kojaryan, Oskanyan, Serj and a large part of the elite in the current government. They are all Western clients, it all started with LTP who introduced them to the club.
I believe we have waited too long. Twenty years of corruption is enough for all of us to convince that we Armenians deserve more. For, when in the history of Armenia ever, the Armenians left their houses in shambles? When? We were a generation of builders, cultivators, poets, musicians, scientists and finally fighters. And now, our Fatherland is still in shambles, and that after twenty years of independence. Don’t try to find reasons, because I have already exhausted all possible answers to these questions. The answer is summarized in my previous comment.
Gaytzag, my dear compatriot, I don’t have to tell you more. Because, I know that you will know in time about the truth. I only hope that by then it will not be too late, just like Sardarabad Battle could have been Van Battle if we were not late, and the 1.5 million Armenians that perished would have been 40-50 MILLION Armenians now living on their Armenian Highland (besides the 10 million now, please do the math and then proclaim what being late means).
As for all Armenians on the Globe:
UNITED WE STAND, EVEN WHEN SERJ AND THE ELITE OF THE THIRD REPUBLIC BETRAYED US IN THIS NEW AVARAYR.
I concur. We need to band together with the Greeks, Cypriots and Assyrians more often so that we have more NUMBERS. Without numbers we will all be pushed around on the political scene. Where are the politically astute Assyrians? Krikorians campaign is an excellent example of one of our own making a real difference and setting a different tone for the better. Rep. Peters is another example of an accomplished leader who has risen the ranks to also make a difference. If we support just these two alone (of course the more the merrier), the tangible difference will not only be felt in DC sooner than you think but will also set a precedent to reckon with in the future. Our relationship with the Greek, Cypriot & Assyrian community's should be based on more than just having a common thorn in the region.
Just like the Turks and Azeri's band together in co-operation to 'manage' Armenia, so too can and should Armenians, Assyrians,Greeks & Cypriots band together and cooperate to manage a common foe
Great piece Betty. Keep up the great work!!
Ragnar,
I am grateful for your thoughtful exchange. I wish I were more knowledgeable on some of the points you raised so we could compare notes, but I am not a historian or a scholar on this topic. Though I do not believe one has to know every detail to render a judgement or declare a position or claim to know it as a fact.
Though I am fully supportive of all dialogue, and vehemently against any limitation of any expression on this topic, I am just not of the opinion that a through evaluation will change the fundementals of the facts known. I have personally witnessed softening of positons and change of mood as a result of dialogue. That in itself is good enough reason alone.
As I had claimed before, in my opinion this is hardly about the facts of the matter, but perceptions and cherished myths. Facts in excruciating detail have been around for a while. They are tested vigorously by both sides. Casual fabrication of alternate reality and evidence is not possible anymore. This leaves behind opinions, interperetations, definitions, word games and yes, sementics. A recepie for endless arguments.
jda,
You see, without even trying hard, you can come up with excuses and justifications for violence. Armenians were not a country under attack. Ottomans were trying to hold on to their country. Their own. As you point out, there were numerous Armenian armed revolts since 1880s, when Ottomans were percieved to be too weak to defend themselves. This, at a time when colonial powers were exctracting more and more privilages for the "minorities". So this was hardly about freedoms etc.. either.
I do not mean that this would justify wholesale physical elminiation of a nation, and in fact this did not happen. You are proof of that. There was no such policy, or decision or intent. A civil war in the middle of WWI, in a disintigrating empire had to be messy. For all involved. Armenian leaders took a huge gamble and lost.
In his manifesto, Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, a pillar of Dashnagtzoutiun said the following at the party congress in 1923, while taking stock of what had happened to Armenians:
At the beginning of the Fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but bad already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands began to be formed in Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and, especially, with much uproar. Contrary to the decision taken during their general meeting at Erzeroum only a few weeks before, the A.R.F. had active participation in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey....It would be useless to argue today whether our bands of volunteers should have entered the field or not. Historical events have their irrefutable logic. In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from organizing and refrain themselves from fighting. This was in an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation: that mentality should have found its expression, and did so....The Winter of 1914 and the Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all the Armenians in the Caucasus, including, of course, the Dashnagtzoutiun. We had no doubt the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered, and its Armenian population would at last be liberated...
We had embraced Russia whole-heartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance...
The proof is, however — and this is essential — that the struggle begun decades ago against the Turkish government brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey and the desolation of Turkish Armenia. This was the terrible fact!
He knew what he was talking about. He did not mince words, was not afraid to look into the mirror. You will not find too many references to him or to his speech. Maybe the comision has a few things to teach many Armenians after all.
Azeri Defense Minister Warns Sarkisian
BAKU (APA)—Azeri defense minister Safar Abiyev Thursday warned Armenian President Serzh Sarkisian about his recent visit to the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.
“This will be his last visit there,” Abiyev told reporters adding that Sarkisian had no right to visit what he termed “occupied lands.”
In speaking about the combat readiness of the Azeri military, Abiyev said “the Armed Forces are capable of liberating the occupied lands.”
“We are aware of everything that has happened. The enemy cannot be active,” warned Abiyev when asked about last week’s exercises in Karabakh, inspected by Sarkisian and Nagorno-Karabakh Republic President Bako Sahakian.
Abiyev also told reporters that the Turkish defense minister was scheduled to visit Baku on November 2
==================================================================.
AFTER FORCING "CAPITULATION PROTOCOL" TO ARMENIAN AUTHORITIES NOW THEY WANT TO "LIBERATE" KARABAKH
Dear President Sargsyan We know that Ignoring, blaming and criticizing or identifying selfless Patriots of Diaspora Armenians are very easy for you ?
But with your past experienced in Switzerland how you are going to Ignore, Confront or Respond "the armed to the teeth" of enemy who with support of your new friend (turkey) day and night threatening to "liberate Karabakh" And you pretending that everything is OK? Mr. President are you going yield ground to the enemy in Karabakh AGAIN ? If you can not stand up firm against Western and/or Eastern Pressures and realy you love your Homelands The best way is, to resign honorably.
Worry for karabakh's future
Dr. babajanian (independent)
USA
Dave, please don't visit Armenian Web pages if you are so against it. Why don't you move to Turkey huh?
The historical record is full of pain, as Murat explains, but please, can someone take a moment to realize that from the Turkish point of view, they were the rulers...the ultimate authority in Anatolia and Armenia, for almost a thousand years. Yes, they ran an empire, on the backs of their subject peoples and with their sweat, strength, intelligence, skills and tax money. Of course there were great accomplishments, it wasn't all bad, but...let's face it...you don't earn or operate an empire by being nice guys. For every Sinan, there were tens of thousands of toiling, uneducated peasants across Anatolia. On the good side, the Turkish umbrella provided a measure of safety for the Armenian masses...pay your taxes, be left largely alone. That was fine, of course, until the empire started sputtering into less favorable economic times and costly, unnecessary wars. Everyone paid the price of course, but let's face it, no one paid as dearly as the Armenian people...for a demise they could only watch unfold, as they were not the masters of the crumbling empire and were unconnected to the sultans who spiraled into madness every now and again. Unfortunately, having already lost the Balkans and other parts of the empire, the Turks were left w/ very few scapegoats at the end, and the Armenians held the golden egg...the heart of Anatolia. And, instead of sharing it, certain circles decided it would be best to kill the native inhabitants - those who paid their taxes for a thousand years to build the empire...and steal it. So ok...it's done, but don't act like this was a noble act....it reminds me of Americans who still brag about decimating the native American 'savages'... which represents very old, racists, supremacist and outdated thinking. Start treating Armenians as human beings...rather than as your lowly subjects....because, by the way, your empires are long....once you can incorporate that change in attitude perhaps your behaviors will modify as well.
Yes, Murat...you say facts are facts, but while that may be true in science or physics, everything in life is viewed through a different prism, thru different eyes. So in reality, nothing is the ever truly same. If someone is color blind, the world is very different. One man's trash is another's treasure. To the native Americans, the white man brought pain, death and destruction. To the English, they saw themselves as bringing civilization to the savages. It seems that many Turks continue to identify w/ mentality of a ruling class, along with the concept of empire and power, and hold that point of view rather dearly. But, why not change positions for once, at least hypothetically, and attempt to see and feel the situation from the view of one of the subjects of that empire? It could be very enlightening. I think Armenians need to do the same, as well, and try to understand how their actions may have been viewed at the time from the confines of the Topkapi Sarayi. This isn't being said to get anyone off the hook or to absolve responsibility, especially those who abused their power over others, but, it can help to bring empathy and understanding to both sides of this debate. In much the same way Americans have no real sympathy for a million dead Iraqis or the thousands being bombed everyday in Afghanistan, everyone conveniently forgets that this involved real people, not just some abstract entity, and there is a legacy attached to it. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...in political terms, it is called 'blowback'. Perhaps someday, the people of Turkey will understand that what was experienced during the waning years of the Ottoman Empire was just that...blowback. You can only push so far. Eventually, there will be a reaction. Turks got their way, they got their country, almost free of minorities, a Turkey for the Turks....but it came at a price, unfortunately, a big price.
Karekin,
I agree with almost all of the above. Except a few points:
Armenians never "had" Anatolia, there was not a single vilayet or city where they were a majority. Even at Van, where they were close to a majority, they were not a majority. An Armenia that was to stretch from Caucuses to Adana would have meant ethnic cleaning or worse of millions of Turks and Kurds.
Armenians were never the lowly subjects, toiling and sweating for the sake of the ruling class of Ottomans. They were, especially in the West, part of the ruling elite. They were the merchants, industrialists, professioonals and artisans. Many loacal governments were staffed and led by Armenians, they were in the Ottoman parliament (out of proportion to their numbers) and in the higher echolons of the Ottoman satate. It was the Turkish and Kurdish peasants who provided the fodder for the empire. Maybe it helps you to think of Armenians as impoverished masses, and lowly subjects brutalized by Ottomans, but it was the opposite.
Last years of Ottomans were not the times of feeling superiority. In all their writings and memoires, all Ottoman intellectuals, and statesman, including Ataturk, they describe bitterly the decay around them, sense of loss, the humiliation of being pushed around and manipulated by the Great Powers and even their own minorities. There was resentment of course but I would like someone to point at a racist and hateful manifesto or a Turkish Hitler.
I am not trying to whitewash bad policies or actions, but there is a context for all this, with very little parallels to what happened to the Jews of Europe.
In my opinion for example, Turkish Republic has real stains on its record, truly immoral policies and events, such as the treatment of minorities and what happened to the remaining Greeeks of Istanbul during 50s, for which it should apologize profusely and make reperations. These are truly responsibilities of the current regime. Erdogan has made some statements, public is sympathetic, but a lot more neeeds to be done while some of the people who suffered are still alive.
murat
thank you for your post. As you say very much of what goes on in the exchange of words on the Armenian fate "...is hardly about the facts of the matter, but perceptions and cherished myths". You also wrote on oct 26 that "The argument is more about how to categorize this tragedy and the official acts and policies relevant to it. In my opinion this is what it boils down to."
I agree that what you say is an important ingredient in the whole picture. Where I tend to disagree with you is if you hold that it is exclusively so. Whether characteristics like "genocide", "hardship due to war conditiom", "local killers" or "centrally orchestrated program of extermination" apply to the Armenian catastrophy or not is also an ordinary empirical and analytical question. And attempts at analysis in the ordinary sense of the word is what I for better or worse try to contribute with. I agree that it may just open the door for endless argument. but not necessarily so.
To Murat:
Your Quote:
Ottomans were trying to hold on to their country. Their own.
Unquote
Simply put, Armenia was an occupied country by the ottomans & like all the rest of countries occupied by the ottomans, Armenians were craving for their independence & their own free country.There was an Armenia much before than you killers came from the east.Still there is an Armenian republic which the kurds do not have.Very soon, the 15-20 million kurds in turkey will have their own independent republic.You were not successfull in assimilating them & you could not supress their aspirations for a free independent Kurdistan...INSHALLAH VERY SOON!
Your Quote
I do not mean that this would justify wholesale physical elminiation of a nation, and in fact this did not happen. You are proof of that. There was no such policy, or decision or intent.
Unquote
You would persecuted in case you uttered these words in France & hopefully very soon throughout the world.You are insulting my innocent massacred & butchered & unburried forefathers by your own forefathers.NONE OF THE ABOVE COMMENTATORS INSULTED YOUR SUPPOSEDLY KILLED FAMILY MEMBERS IN CRETE... & on the contrary they shared your 'supposedly pain'.... this is the difference between a lowly turk like you & of honourable TURKS who have publicly apologised for the GENOCIDE committed by their forefathers & simple Armenians like us.
Your Quote:
The proof is, however — and this is essential — that the struggle begun decades ago against the Turkish government brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey and the desolation of Turkish Armenia. This was the terrible fact!
Unquote
Since you are quoting Katchazouni & saying that he did not mince his words then YOU SHOULD ACCEPT WHAT HE SAID WHICH IS: "brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in turkey and the desolation of turkish Armenia".DEPORTATION & EXTERMINATION BY WHO MR. MURAT????
You see people like you are either brainwashed, or on the payroll of turkish government or have an Armenian ancestor/blood & they want to hide it...
DON'T BE AFRAID TO LOOK INTO THE MIRROR MR. MURAT.Are you a real turk???
Susan, you are an inspiration for all women, not just those with breast cancer! May God continue to give you and your family the strength and love to handle this difficult journey. May you conquer this with flying colors! Your prayer circle will also include me.
Dave,
You are on the money! Of course a (reperations) commisson will do more than just air Armenian narrative, it will address Turkish claims too. Belive me, there are many and they are real. They may start with mass graves discovered in recent years filled with Turkish victims of Armenians!
Yes, re-writing history is a very messy proposition. I would rather spend our time and effort and energy to make sure the living live in peace, dignity, security and prosperity.
Vartan, you seem to be beyond reach and reason. Hate does that. I wish you well.
Karaekin,
It is really not that relevant to the topic, but I have to comment on the notion of Turks sweeping dwon from Asia to conquering and subjugating the Armenians. Firstly, Turks, by that time highly imbued by Persiona culture, battled Romans and grabbed Asia Minor from them. It is said Alaparslan had Armenians among his troops at Manzikert, as well as other groups who disliked Romans more than Muslim Turks apparently. I doubt if Armenians as a nation would have made it to this century if it were not for the Ottoman system of governing. Some irony.
I have to admit, me and probably many Turks fail to understand this deep need for apologies and repentence. This may make us come across insensitive. I have been always impressed though with the strong bond Armenians everywhere have felt for their ancient homelands. The sense of loss is so strong and obviously this was a defining event and a massive tragedy. I do not think you will find many Turks who will deny this, I certainly do not.
You also have to realize that many Turks, especially those in Istanbul have grown up with, went to school with, befriended, partnered with, and some even married with Armenians. I have been to more Greek and Armenian Churches than Mosques. I have a perspective on Armenians as people and as essential part of Turkish culture and history, that you may not appreciate.
Այստեղ կարծէս Ռակնար Նաեսը, Մուրատ եւ Հուսեյնը միեւնոյն անձն են մեր (Հայերիս) վրայ տեղեկատուական կռիւ են մխում այս արձակագրի տակ իրանց նշումներով։ Խնդրում եմ բոլորից չենթարկուեք այս թակարդին։
Շնորհակալութիւն
Հարօ
Thank you Murat for giving this great comment.
This is addresed to Bedros Efendi(or is it Haji Bedros)I very much like to know if it is the latter..but never mind that.
My belated question posed to him now is the following.You speak of and I quote"clar political theory programmes,plus "Epistemologies".This last one I cannot make heads or tails of.Besides I am at present somehwere in a remote village in Spain and not access to mu library and dictionary to look that up...
I suspect like someone here also mentions you are not rational...
As to regional politics(Caucasus) when I was in Yerevan last summer and this conference was on at the Congress hotel organized by the French Ambassado,with participation of Kazimirof,General Seyranian opening the session,though he lft early..there were participants from Iran, Turkey, Russia,Gerogia(most numerous this one 5/6).Latter ,all of them were putting accednt on 2008 August few days war in Abkhazia-S.Ossetia ,when Russians entered and put an end to Georgian pres. ambitions etc.,
No on I repeat intervened to make a point to the Georgians.I did,thus:"How about you putting so much pressure on our brothers and sisters in Javakheti"' which caught him by surprise..and he stumbled for words, ending to the effect gthat this will be redressed, etc.,.Later I asked Arpi Vartanian AAA rep.in RA, "How was my remarks.." she nodded smilingly..
You see, I am not in any way trying to presume-assume.But armenians´´ mine included sometimes..2Hayun Khelk Oush gouk" .There was another of my uttering the second day -end of conf.When I reminded all, "it is rather strange that this conf. in Yerevan Armenia, no mentione is made of latter and indeed its Diaspora"...
Can you believe that? they come and enjoy their stay, air their wishes or statements whatever -by the by this retired U.S.Air force officer and an Eglishman who a couple times was the moderator...
Latter did not mention anything about Armens...go figure that out.As though Armenia was not to be there..Later on a " Badmaban" started belatedly to talk about one does n ot know about what, just political talk without any "concrete" theory..as Bedros points out..
What? we don´t have enough gutts to stand up and defend our rights(Javakheti et al?)No, again no I am not a person that wishes to be on the forefront not at all ,but when it comes to defending our rights,then indeed, I jump to the forefront.
One last input, rather insight be this hiumble servant of the Arfmen people."our Khelk" did not instantaneously grab the best occasion when above war was on and helped our brethren in Javakhk to then, right then stand up-with aid from RA and declare that Javakhk ..Akhaltikh, Akhalkala have always been Armenian populated and we also should demad Autonomy..mind you not seperation from Georgia .then by and by push to that end, when the time is ripe..again
"Hayiun Kheke ousha guka".
I shall later describe next post that I admired the only Armenian In RA when the "Khatchkars" were being destroyed by azeri troops in Nakhijevan...No one listened to him.I shall write it now.When this discussion was being aired-direct-from Armenian H1 t.v. then, he near shouted"This minute we should stop the peace talks till the Azeris stop it, beg pardon then through OSCE Minsk group´s intervention re-strt the peace negotiations...."This chap turned out tobe-I found out on my next tripto Yerevan-when I asked a friend there who was that man, he said"He is a marxist,now the pres. of that political party".I retorted "so what"? when he was dead right, why should we care about his ideology.So is -unfortunately the Armenian mindset-they put ideologiacl beliefs in front of the National one.So much for now ...
best to all and
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Սաւոր նայէ՛ ինչ է ասում, Մուրատ էֆենդի տիոր, եղեր Մանազկերտում մենք՛ ենք օգնել Բիւզանդական բանակի ջարդին։ Այդ նոյն Ալբասլան վիշապը արիւնաքամ արեծ ամբողջ Անին։
Նորից խնդրում եմ բոլորից կարեւորութիւն չտալ Ռակնարի եւ Մուրատի Թուրք երեւակայութեանը։ Սրանք նոր տիպի Թալեատականներ եւ Քէմալականներ են։
Murat, in psychoanalysis your case is so common.
Hello Murat...so yes, I do understand quite well that the Seljuks took Asia Minor w/ the help of the native born Armenians, and then another 600 years of Ottoman rule led to a significant Turkish/Armenian symbiosis, which overall was positive. However, as you know, it was that last few years, dominated - not by the sultan - but by the Young Turks and their CUP that really caused the major problems. I think without them and their evil deeds, Armenians and Turks would have not had such a horrible divorce.
The ARF needs to understand that it is an extremely unpopular party in Armenia. In the last election, given the choice between Serge Sarkissian and Levon Ter-Petrosyan (picking betweent the two, many said, was essentially picking the lesser of two evils), the people of Armenia only gave 6% of their voice to Vahan Hovhanissian.
Their coalition with Robert Kocharian, Vahan Hovhanissian's family ties with Serge Sarkissian, and their decision to essentially help the regime prop up a very fragile image of legitimacy (by blaming the protests on "outside forces," joining the coalition, etc.) has made the ARF the second most hated political establishment in Armenia (the first being the current regime).
That is why today, what the ARF is doing is considered to be no more than an "immitation." A plot designed by the government to split the opposition vote (remember Artur Baghdasarian last year -- he ran a campaign of regime change on par with Levon and then suddenly decided to join Serge's coalition during the much expected protests that followed). And almost everything done by the ARF points to this being so. Unlike all the other TV channels that posed a real and legitimate threat to the regime, Yerkir media has been free to criticize the regime -- WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS SET (i.e. opposition to the protocols but not to the regime's system of oligarchy and violence in and of itself). Are you really about to suggest that Serge has finally decided to allow free and fair media in Armenia? And all of these forums and discussions that the ARF has been holding have been held at government-affiliated, Serge-owned hotels. Look at Vahan's last press conference -- see all those stickers from oligarch-owned business? they wouldn't be there unless somebody very powerful wanted it to be so. Tune in to any other REAL opposition party/organization's press conference (whether it be Zhirair Sefelian or the HAK) -- you essentially have only Jermuk and Bjni as being the only sponsors, both companies that either have foreign parent companies, or are themselves opposition affiliated.
And lastly, Hrant Markarian (the only Dashnak with any credibility in Armenia) was the first to break news of the regime change -- and he, rightly so, said some REAL things -- he talked about how the entire system itself has to go, how it has suffocated democracy, etc. Where is Hrant Markarian now? Ever since then, Vahan scurried to put out the fire Hrant had started (within hours, I might add) -- he has taken the charge and Hrant has been a little too quite...look at pictures of Hrant at that last rally the ARF held...they say more than I can here.
It is sad that many in the Diaspora-ARF have been duped, not only by the regime, but Unger Vahan himself. Propping up a fake opposition is a great tactic that Robert Kocharian and Serge Sarkissian have been using to fend off any threat to their power. It's a tactic Ataturk was famous for, by the way.
Whether you can realize what I'm saying has any truth to it -- the fact that the people of Armenia clearly think so is a serious hurdle that the ARF has been unable to respond to with any effectiveness. I highly doubt Mr. 6% (who offered a similiar "Road Map" in the last election cycle) will be able to combat the protocols or Serge's mafia without any support from the people.
I have to say Mr. Astarjian -- I would consider this article very wise and intelligent, if it were not for the fact that you ignored the OTHER Church that has pushed a political agenda (or the political agenda that has pushed the Church?).
Sorry to be "late",
I have to say, specialy to Mr.OJALVO, that, my grand father born in Anatolia in 1899 and refugiee in France, used to told us ( his friends or relatives), the same short sentence which synthesizes the Sevan's long declaration.
By respect for Mrs.Günaysü, I wan't cite that sentence. Even more, the risponsibility of a discrete oligarchy must not soil an entire community. You can read a very short remark on the condamnable behavior of some jews (named louts) in the book "Ailleurs, Hier, Autrement- le Génocide des Arméniens" published by "La Revue de la Shoah"
http://www.librairie-memorialdelashoah.org/ficheproduit.asp?pid=11E1A65A&rid=BEBC212&uid=081129224907835598
This is just an information. Everyone interested must know it and search to make his own opinion. It a matter of universal morality.
In fact, the upper class of Armenian community was greatly wealthy until the middle of the XIX century. One doesn't have any explanation of its decline (for those who can read french or translate electronically):
http://perso.magic.fr/jaki.aladin/famille_dadian.htm
Take these informations just for what they are...
Don't be mistaken on fight.
Thank you for your coverage – here is the link to view the ATP poster presented at the World Forestry Congress in Buenos Aires: http://www.armeniatree.org/pdf/wcf_atp_poster.pdf
Hye, Turkey's leadership, is acting as though they are, and have been, the most illuminated and intelligent nation in making their choices for Armenia, for the Middle East and more. This nation
1-A Turkey who lies to their own citizens of their own history - denies their Armenian Genocide;
2-A Turkey in its narcisstic mentality ignores of what the world has knowledge ( Turkey deems not to know the world's awareness and recognition of Turks' guilt of murdering a nation... (Ignore it and it will disappear, Armenians will become extinct, and Turkey is scot free);
3-A Turkey 'allies' with nations... Turkey 'insults' nations (yet Turkey can't take being 'insulted')
and, even more and hence, none of these alliances are maintained;
4-Turkey discriminates against the Armenian nation as a people to be treated as though of an inferior race - (Turks being the superior race) - since their forbears murdered the Armenian nation, the current Turks seem to think now they are to crush the fledgling Armenian nation of today;
5-A Turkey has grandiose ideas, (having awakened of a sudden) Turkey now shall be a leader
amongst the nations of the world... Turkey offers to be a mediator... Unbelieveable! After hundreds
of years - awakening?
6-A Turkey? Has a Turkey - historically - of all the nations on our planet- really and truly - earned the right to determine that Turkey now is eligible to be the arbiter between 'unfriendly' nations. Huh?
A Turkey who cannot abide with Turkey's own alliances? Did Turkey get elected? Did Turkey win this assignment above other nations? Turkey thinks Turkey is deserving of this 'office'... Such conceit is disgusting... Such actions being tolerated by the world is deplorable... and sad. Why?
If this be the case, I think I'll run for this 'office' and am willing to submit my resume for approval.
Manooshag
Dear Haro Mherian,
I do sympathize with you and beleive in some parts of your post,mostly that is.However,like you yourself write LTP and his supporters brought this on, in our Homeland.Who planted who later, is history.As to corruption,just take a look around,it abounds in every corner of the world.By this I am not condoning it or in favour of it. Far from it.But then facts are facts.I wrote an essay-post only yesterday to Armenianweekly,which they deleted,saying your writing is bad and w/ many errors.I forgot to mention at bottom E.& O. excepted.Which I always do, since I am older than most here online and have abad habit of typing fast.Time factor for me also ,in this respect ,very precious.
Now then,be informed that the "wolf" you mention, may have with his aids, something up his sleeve.This I like to believe, since up to this moment the "ball is in their(great Turkey¨s )goal or side.Since they are not so far responding as to ratification and trying hard to renege on their signing of the latter , i.e. "without any preconditions".You see this signifies (in the eyes of those present in Zurich,viz. Hillary,Lavrov,Solana et al) that Armenia stands its ground!!!
1. If you have read about the "Hazgerd" ,famous for his dealing and wheeling-old time style-then this might be his goal, to make the West understand that ARMEMNIA complies with their wishes..let´s see if the other side does too! Now about what I wrote to ...and they brought that excuse that it is not to their standards. My English and bad typing i.e.,I don´t think I am writing in Chinese though...
2.This is the core of what I wrote:-I don´t know if you are aware of two or three movements in France that they declare about their demands/claims of Western Armenian territories.I urged these ,one being "Haybachdban" the other Ararat Institute(pres. of which an old friend of mine doctor Hagop Kirkasharyan, who by the by, is famed ,for he operated 30 hours continually, after earthquake..etc.,)a patriot indeed,but he also urges the Western Armenians to unite,which in my view is another fragmentation and yet another one likewise and all this because of the April 30(beginning of Armeno turkish rapproachement).Anyhow I urged these to at least be smart enough to unite their forces and also join up with ARF-the one in the forefront of land-claimers..-not that I beleive in that.
4.I am a stout advocate of pressing-through our int´l attorneys(we have a500 strong BAR Association) to lodge a serious ,well prepared claim at the Int´l Court of Justice demand from great Turkey for "Blood Money",which has precedent,witness the Jews agaisnt Germany and why go far..the very recent very successful Armenian claim -won-viz., New-York Life Insurance company.This is relatively easier to realize and win.We have plenty of proof that- wise.
I also "suggested" that ARF contemplate making some amendments in their Dogma(ganonagir-dzragir) ,first -this is aesthetic-ALTER their name to "Hay Yeghapokhagan Dashnagtsutyun",i.e."Armenian Evolutionary Federation",also educate the Homeland people especially,that theirs is a replica-follower of Euro-Socialism.For in Armenia, where I have delved into this particular issue, most there think or thought, when the 2008 election was at its peak,ARF kept repeating word Socialism..which for them is synonimous of soviet Socialism..In fact,they should have resorted to mentioing "Ungervar" and also explain in detail that they follow the LINE of the European Socialism ,viz. all those in Western Euorpe,especially Sweden,Denmak,Finland and in extension Spain,France and Italy where the Socilaist Internationl is anALTERNATIVE political party that is still in power in some countries there.Alas ,this was not to be andour Homeland brothers still think what with their Red Flags in droves,ARF,i.e.(those meetings of electoral time)left impression that soviet socialism is back at work with a different face...
4.Bygones are bygones ,but hopefully the ARF leadership will consider above-like "suggestions",since their own Rupen Ter Minassian has mentioned that their party listens to people´s voices.
To surmise, you seem to be dismayed and betrayed-like many many others.I am not!!!! and I still hope that our present "hazgerd"s may have something up their sleeves.But the thick of our people,whether in Homeland or Diaspora,are apt to make quick overtures and become easily disappointed: Politics is the art of wheeling and dealing and being very alert and patient.
This much for now.Take care and..
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
P.S.Do visit my site, www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org and especially read on top of it Pre conference 2002 and Bulletin No 7.this last one is re "A New Concept of Electoral System and Governance"...
friendly and kindly ,gaytzag palandjian
Dear Hay,
I opened the link you gave.
There, I could not find any hint to what you suggest in your message.
So, I will suggest that you make a full quote from that book.
You don't need to translate it. My French is adequate.
Yours,
Denis
Murat.
You are a servant of the 1915-1923 murderers and the Genocidal lies they told. But you do a poor job at it.
But I write not as an Armenian, but instead as the grandson of a harmless innnocent woman killed in a Nazi concentration camp, a Jew, because the racist and ahistoric lies you tell are and were the template for Hitler, Goebbels and Rosenthal, not just Talat, Nazim and Sakir. To me, anyone who denies and defends murder is the same.
You make up concessions I have not made.
First, nowhere does my post contain any concession that Armenians engaged in uprisings starting in the 1880's or at any other time. I did say that Armenians, like any oppressed group, had a right to self-defense, indeed the right of Armenians to defend themselves was far greater than any justification that existed for the American revolution.
But as any actual student of the Armenian Genocide knows, the Ottoman government imposed the death penalty on any Armenian who had the temerity to own a weapon or to defend his family. Searching for weapons was often a pretext under which Gendarmes invaded homes and took the men away, in 1914-1915, before the formal deportations began.
Your claim that my existence negates Genocide is truly moronic. If I was Armenian, my life would only mean that my family escaped the Genocide, perhaps in the 1894-1896 period of Hamidian massacres [300,000 dead], or the Adana massacre when another 30,000 souls were extinguished, or by fleeing the Genocide itself. Did you even know that hundreds of thousands of Armenians lived in Iran, France, Russia, and the United States before 1915?
You obviously do not know much detail about how Armenians survived; they were often warned or hidden by a brave Turkish neighbor, by a co-worker, or a passerby who decided that saving the innocent trumped insane orders to murder. Jews often received the same warnings, as well. But I could just as easily be the great grandson of an Armenian girl pressed into domestic and sexual slavery by a Turk or Kurd, who made her escape years later. Or perhaps I am the descendant of someone who bribed a Gendarme.
If your analysis was correct, there would be no Jews who escaped Germany, or the East, no Darfurians or Bosnians alive today.
Provocation is not a defense to the subsequrent murder of uninvolved, unarmed civilians. If you doubt this, research what Lemkin, who coined the word "Genocide", thought about the Armenian case. You will find that he coined the word specifically to give a name to what had happened to the Armenians and the Jews of Europe.
I also commend to you the recently translated memoir of Bishop Balakian. Or perhaps the memoir of the Venezuelan officer Rafael deNogales will interest you. He was an abject hater of Armenians, but he recounts how his Army unit participated under orders in the murder of unarmed convoys of Armenian civilians, and how the Governor of Diyarbekir confided in him Talat's oral orders to kill all the Armenians. This latter source is footnoted in Niall Ferguson's recent work.
The central fact which no non-Turkish historian contradicts is that almost all of the Armeinans who perished were unarmed civilians under guard, who were killed by their captors or other state actors. Even if these women and children had been armed insurrectionists, their subsequent torture and murder at the behest of the state was not spontaneous, and was not the product of mutual combat. You are smart enough to grasp the point, are you not?
But people who continue the culture of Genocide and the lies which propelled it, such as yourself, always pretend the facts are otherwise.
Throughout Anatolia - and not merely in the war zone - the patterns of killings was largely the same. Famous Ottomanist Donald Quataert, who once was an Agnostic, came to assert the AG thesis because his inspection of Archival records showed the pattern to be the same, whether it was on the outskirts of Istanbul, or in the far East. You may recall his famous description of threats he received from the Turkish Ambassador if he did not recant his opinion. So much for Turkey's interest in free speech and academic freedom. Turkey is so bold as to try to censor Americans.
Let's start with the able-bodied men. Virtually all were conscripted into unarmed labor battalions where they were worked to death by their Turkish officers, or were simply killled outright by their fellow soldiers. Those who were not, were usually killed immediately upon the commencement of the deportations, leaving the womern, children and elderly defenseless. Despite all the talk of open Turkish archives, no military archives are open to review this issue. What better proof of Genocide is there than this?
The elderly tended to die on the way, as did the majority of the women and children by murder and intentional deprivation. There are hundreds of accounts of dead Armenian civilians on the roads, and in open fields and rivers, dead in groups, often with their bodies mutilated. These were not stragglers who died of weakness. Women without noses and breasts, children impaled and lit afire. There are hundreds of non-Armenian sources which faithfully chronicle the inhuman extermination of this race; the killers preferred a blade, the blunt end of a rifle or stave. And those who made it to Syria were killed there by the many scores of thousands.
Torture and degradation were the order of the day. Every day.
What you need to come to grips with is the obscenity of the civil war thesis you parrot. Even Armenian Genocide agnostics like Guenter Lewy call your thesis a "travesty of history which no historian with a conscience could advance", citing Turkish scholar Selim Deringil on this score. [See also the work of Baskin Oran, Fatma Gocek, Taner Akcam, Yektan Turkyilmaz, Fikret Adanir, Engin Akarli, and Umit Ungor if you can stand only to read the work of Turkish scholars].
Your spirit and rhetoric are the same as that which killed my grandmother in 1945, long before the Turkish school system spat you out. Just as the Nazis blamed Jews for a host of non-existent ills, people like you dehumanize Armenians into an abstraction worthy of death. In fact, denialists and Nazis often use the same terms: "backstabbers" "terrorists" "murderers" "vermin".
I hope the USA would not regret for supporting the Armenia-Turkey Protocols so ardently. The most obvious thing in Turkey-Armenia relations is that both sides are trying to trick the United States. jeshmarid@yahoo.com
This is all very nice, but it would be even better if Senator Reid were to criticize both President Obama for breaking his campaign promise to Armenians on the matter of genocide acknowledgment and Hillary Clinton for being a hypocrite - that is, supporting the Genocide resolution when she was a senator but playing games with it now as Secretary of State.
I have always said that Hillary Clinton does not have a principled bone in her entire body. It's all me-me-me.
Thanks Gaytzag, your comments make great sense although it's true that your English is almost non-readable. I had to translate it back to Armenian to understand what you wrote. By the way, how is your Armenian? Maybe you should rewrite your article in Armenian and submit it to The Armenian Weekly?
Anyways, about ARF, yes, I have had similar thoughts in the past, and did make some suggestions myself. Not so much about the symbolic issues (e.g. flag and what not), but more about their governing infrastructure. Although, I should say that in the last few months, they have made some improvements (but yes, it is too little too late). One good point about the traditional parties, like ՀՅԴ, Ոամկավար and Հնչակեան, is their solid and stable patriotic framework (i.e. գաղափարախօսութիւնը). In contrast, the other new parties in Armenia are more or less based on the will of their individual leaders. For example, the Armenian Congress is nothing but LTP's followers (նախիրը), there are no well-formed framework. So if LTP goes bad, the party goes bad. Or if LTP retires, the entire party disintegrates.
The same is true for Hanrabedagan and the Bargavach parties, they are more or less, Serj's or Gagik's one-man parties. They have no well-formed patriotic framework (գաղափարախօսութիւն).
Such one-man party systems are very dangerous for any nation, and even more so for the Armenian Nation.
Finally, I really did not understand your point about "hazgerd". Are you talking about the Persian Shah Hazgerd, in analogy with Vartan being taken hostage in Persia?
Again, it's not the Armenian people that all of sudden got emotional and became easily disappointed. It's what happens if you pock a spear in the heart of the Armenian identity. There are limits that the Nation will tolerate, and what Serj did goes beyond this limit, which proves that he does not understand what being Armenian is all about. If he wants to save us all by converting every one of us to a Turk, then of course he has done the most wise decision. But, is that what you want? Is this what any Armenian would want?
Mr.OJALVO,
would you underline that part of my message.
I'll send you the quote.
Generaly speaking, I have made my own small 'biblio' and I can always cite my references... or send copies by Air-mail.
Regards
A_H
Democrats with their elected President
Never betrayed us
They betrayed them selves—
They said something
And did something else.
Any decent man in any race
Will not accept… thus.
From our long experience
They will all regret—
To become to term
With dishonest gene
Cannot turn to be honest
Whatever decades past
Thems will stay the same.
Let us wait and see!
We waited almost a one century.
More few years, not difficult to wait,
To assess, who is a betrayer
And who is a trustworthy.
November 3, 2009
Dear Hay,
I was drawn into useless polemics because of Sevan's following libelous canard:
QUOTE
It’s an undeniable fact that Israel and Turkey are two twin Jewish states in the Middle East and even Muslim Turkish intellectuals recognize this fact.The Sabbateans and other Crypto Jews in Turkey founded the secular Republic of Turkey and by annihilating Christian subjects they became the kings and queens of the new Turkish Republic in all spheres like Business,Art,Military,Bureaucracy.
UNQUOTE
This is an ugly lie and a cheap defamation. Sevan's subsequent assertions give full proof that he adopts the rhetoric of Moslem fundamentalists who wish to delegitimize the secular Turkish Republic by imputing on it a Jewish identity and by disseminating the lie that the Republic of Turkey is the fruit of a Jewish conspiracy.
The fact that you took Sevan's rants as a referral, induced me to answer. However, from your message I couldn't ascertain to which one of his lies you were referring.
I think that GOOD FAITH is quintessential if we are going to conduct a civilized dialogue.
Sevan's rhetoric makes all efforts in this direction futile.
I sincerely invite the "accredited" Armenian instances to endorse or publicly repudiate Sevan's above quoted allegations.
Yours,
Denis
Harry Reid, Senator, United States of America
Thank you for your interest, concern and feelings for a people who have lost our families to the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. When I was attempting to create our family tree to pass on to my children I could barely find the names... another painful moment since I was not able to go beyond the year 1915, except to know that my grandmother was Manooshag and my grandfather was Tomas on my father's side, my mother's side my grandmother's name was Ovsanna and my grandfather was Taniel from Dikranagerd and Bursa... all well educated and cultured people, I was told... I had to tell my children to explain to their teachers that we had suffered a Genocide, unrepented to this day, of the Armenian nation and our tree stopped at 1915.
As for the U.S. State Department/Hilary Clinton, is well aware that we, decendants of the survivors, still pursue (as is world known) the guilty perpetrators... the Ottomans in their vile elimination of an ancient people on their own lands of nearly 4,000 years and as well, Armenian culture. And, the world watches as the subsequent Turkish leaders, still in denials - as evidenced even today - in their stance and determined pursuit of 'crushing' the Armenian nation of today...
Hilary Clinton, U.S. State Deparment, are well aware of the efforts of the American Armenians - especially when it is time to for us to vote. As you have noted, we too noticed, that our voice was not included when 'protocols' and 'roadmaps' were established for the fledgling nation of Armenia by the
Turks - ince our voices shall have made a great difference in the results. This Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama, the president of the United States of America knew. Politics, sadly, takes over - yet the reality is that Morality is being addressed. Genocides - for wherever, whenever, however... innocent lives are subjected to mans' inhumanity to man - in vilest, sickest forms - is allowed to
continue, allowed in dishonest denials, we all of us, have failed as civilized humans. After a century of Genocides - still, in the 21st century a Darfur, and yet who, where, when, the next Genocide?
Manooshag
Dr. Taner Akcam, your dedication to the Genocide of the Armenian nation by the Ottoman Turks and the subsequent denials of the Turkish leadership is priceless! Your dedication to the truths
of the politics of Genocide is outstanding! I have to force myself to remember that there are many in Turkey who know and believe as you. Howsomever, the politics of the Turkish leaderships has been and remains immature, misdirected and even as an uncivilized society - who sadly, know not how to change their mind set - unable, incapable of admitting that their history books are dishonest and, as well, even leading youths to continue - to learn hatred of the victims - Armenians, as the enemy.
It wonders me that the
turkish leaders for the Armenian Genocide - those who perpetrated the murder of a nation are honored as heroes in Turkey. But today, years later, the democratic republic of Germany stands tall and respected among nations... overcoming the madman, Hitler. May enlightened leaders of Turkey lead the way...
Manooshag
Who said genocide doesn't pay? May they all go to Jahenem and quickly.
WHY is it with so many events in the community we only hear about these things AFTER they happen? Would it not have been possible to announce this talk in advance for those of us who live in cities in the NE region to travel to hear Akcam lecture? I never understand this perspective.
Why we Armenians cannot file lawsuits against these people who deliberately collaborate with our enemies? Hye Dhat should do at least something concrete.
Read this:
http://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/
I had been absent on this line for a while and now reading what ALIPASA and MURAT have put in ,nay uttrered,I wish to remind all Armenians that these like are what in spanish -in Spain-were called "cabeza de Turco" meaning Hast ghafa,in turkish Armenian a melange of both languages.HARD headed ,pretty much like their government executives-diplomats-.Why don´t they try to understand that the Armenians since the 1800´s were under the harsh rule,nay yolk and "Yataghan" of first the "Red Sultan" Abdul Hamid and later the young turks-that supposedly were revolutionaries and alas our ARF thought they were sincere and joined up with them,People like Krikor Zohrab an Ottoman Parliament MP was the first one to be taken in...believing that the turks, young turks meant really what they proclaimed. Now all that aside,plus the ones never mentioned above above that dear Professor Vahakn Dadrian dug up in the old Ottoman Empire archives, that of the "Turkish Military tribunal" that jundged and condemned the authors of the Armenian(then) massacres,now after Rafael Lemkin´s coining the word "geno-cide" , proved a couple dozen times and confirmed as such,these old style old mentality effendis are trying hard to cover up and opine the contrary.
It is a futile discussion as the spanish (see above) knew it-that-some here don´t know that is where the phrase comes from...that Spain destroyed the Ottoman navy in "La Batalla Del Lepanto" in the Mediterranean some 400 yrs ago...and since then they dubbed that "cabeza de Turco" since the Ottomans knowing full well that they were no match to the spanish armada -even so-tried to carry on...
Whether during the 1908 Adana killings, prior to that the 1896 Erzeroum one ,300,000 innocent Armemnians slaughtered ,then the real Mc Coy, the Eviction and put on Death March- my uncle and grandfather amongst these-then again all Armenian populated villages plundered and people raped killed ,burnt to death in churches ,monasteries destroyed...they have the nerve to come up and say YOU ARMENIANS STABBED US ON THE BACK".The few very very few resistance instances,such as the Zeytoun and Sassoun and Van´s pale when compared to premeditated mass killings they conducted amongst their loyal"raya" Ermenis...God these people still think Like the Hitlerians that they are a Master race-could be- that they could get away with it..true for a while they have been until the 1965-the year that completed the 50th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide,rising from ashes,like the Pheonix, when a million in Yerevan and throughout the Armenian Diaspora countries like one soul stood up and shouted "our lands our lands.."Do they know any history other than their one ?fed by their ugly turkish diplomats historians and the like?Have they read about a spanish princess-later, to declare herself as "Izabel La Catolica, Reina de España"? she was the person that united the spanish princes,secretly meeting with all and getting the people of Spain well armed -(unlike the Armenian fedayees smuggling in a dozen a time Mosin rifles from across Ottoman border into Western Armenia-)THEN PUSHED , NAY THREW the 600 year old Khaliphate (north African moors)rule ...O U T ..Armenians indeed like the spaniards had ALL THE RIGHT TO UNITE WITH THE RUSSIANS, the allies and fight alongside to rid themselves of the occupiers...
Do you kid Murat or Alipasa? pretending you don´t know all that?
If our angry young men after being completely disappointed by our political parties´pleas falling on deaf ears of the UN and the like resorted to "correctional acts of violence" not terrorism,blind terrorism.There certainly is a difference, the French Media and intellectuals have proven the distinction between latter from Freedom fighting such acts.But these young knew when to stop when the Nagornyi Karabagh war broke up they joined forces there to liberate the Armenian Artsakh from harsh Azeri rule...
Please go learn your lessons well ,history cannot be twisted and changed.Khojali? eh, it ws proved by some Azeri leaders(themselves) that it was mistakenly carried out by their own Omon cheteh´s... like your old ones come to mind.Ali pasa declares that Turkey will not give land to Armenians..land that is presently MOSTLY POPULATED B Y people that they falsely-called mountain turks,until Mme Mitrterand,wife of ex French President started a campaign and won. That at long last great Turkey admitted that they were/ are k u r d s ..16 or million of them.I would ask Ali p.and Murat to go try to remove these from their millenia old lands-yes they exsited there alongside the Armenians , peacefully, until the twissted Ottoman turkish mind- set, set them up against us promising them...
And now that they have tasted great turkish rule..they have repented and are beginning like some turks to admit what horrible crime they have committed and begin to voice their repentence and ask for forgiveness..
Why go far..only a half dozen yrs ago no such word as "ermeni" could be heard on turkish radio t.v.etc., or in their press...now after Orhan Pamuk and all above mentioned few semi-intellectuals ádmittance,plus of cours >Hrant Dink¨´s´ murder when all of a sudden(EU entry enticing the gov. authorities )allowed that half true half false--WE ARE ALL ARMENIANs-slogan being aired...
Ermenis? eh a word that was tabou for over 70 yrs..come come ALi ,Murat,give us more of your turkish "massals" at least these will replace Nesreddin Khoja´s ...original ones..
If you do actually wish to come to an understanding with Armenians ,you ought to learn more about what transpired during the 1800´s and then 1915-23.Your Mustafa Kemal pasa ,supposedly a democrat,actually carried on the half finished work of the Talaat´s and Enver´s.This latter few know was put to death on horseback by a Red Army Armenian officer when Enver was in or near Central Asia,1921,having crossed via Azerbejan.
Armenians will survive the worst, this is a proven fact.But I doubt it if your Empire ,reduced to republic of Turkey and with surrounding Arab,Persian,Kurdish, Armenian , Bulgarina Greek and then some people ,not so well disposed towards it,will stay on.Witness the other Empires that have crumbled.Ali pasa talks of "Russia will not be there to help Armenians ,up above...to that effect,why on earth does he think that? is it because he is afraid that might happen? in case of war...' no one wants war.But Armenian young whether in Homeland -as regular army soldiers or those in Diaspora crave to defend the Homeland once again if need be.No we do not condone war or attrocities,like you wish to convey,but we know how to defend ourselves..
I trust you will have some second thoughts when writing to Armenians dropping hints such as the last one by Ali pasa..we get what you utter quite well.Dont give us bellicose rhetoric,we are not afraid .Pull yourselves together consider the other alternative-this is MY LST WISH THAT ALL TURKISH PEOPLE WILL SOMEHOW COME TO REALIZE WHAT THEIR ANCESTORS DID WAS A VERY BAD CRIMINAL ACT AND BEG FORGIVENESS.ARMENIANS CAN FORGIVE,YES...BUT NEVER FORGET!!!EVEN AFTER REPARATIONS.
G.P
Excellent article. Unfortunately, political and financial considerations of many individuals and governments have in the past, and will continue in the future, to override their true beliefs and their sense of compassion and justice.
Things do happen. One can explain the motivation why political officers in any country (in this case in Great Britain) are eager to cheat on their Parliaments. The motive, as a rule, is to have benefits for their own national affairs (though, partially, misleading behavior can also take place because of low education and mean personality traits). But how can one explain the fact that Mr. Nalbandyan, Armenian FM, cheats on his own Constitutional Court, on his own Parliament, on his own President, on the political parties of his own country. In fact, the top political leaders in the Republic of Armenia are misleading their own nation, a nation that has suffered Genocide. Moreover, Mr. Simonyan, a prominent Dashnak and the Rector of Yerevan State University, gives an interview in which he declares the Armenian Quest as a consequence of political games of powerful nations.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
The above is just a careerist bandwagon for most. I know personally that among those signatories above there are those who agree with the APSU http://apsu11.wordpress.com/ , the ones under attack in this article. This first of all is clear indication of the oppressive and fascistic nature of the "closed club of Academia" in general, which is something widely known within the academic community and scorned by dissidents of this oppressive system of thought control.
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It is ironic to see a blasee plea for "independent thought" in this article, when indeed the harsh manner of exclusion, sliencing, and distancing of those bearing alternative theories has been carried out in such a systematic and institutionalized manner.
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In Richard Hovanissian's 2 volumes you do not see a single mention of any other theory aside from that which is accepted by American academics. Nothing is mentioned with regards to large amounts of evidence to suggest direct Armeno-Urartuan cultural links, for example.
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Another issue is the de-Armenization of Armenia in toponymic references. Critics of the de-Armenization of Armenia have politically based evidence in hand. The Turkish Historical Society has declared in writing the intention of de-Armenizing the Armenian Plateau. The Turkish Historical Society has been lobbying, apparently successfully, for the "Eastern Anatolization" of Western Armenia, and now it has become commonplace to name this territory as "Eastern Anatolia" by even altering referential material which had clearly named the region as, for example, the "Armenian Plateau." Here is a short essage illustrating this problem http://www.hayq.org/upload/files/aa-EO4.pdf
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I believe there is a real problem of State Department influence over Armenian Studies. It is of course not provable, but it is palpable.
http://hetq.am/en/society/boxoqi-akcia/ <--further proof. Disgusting and shameful.
I agree with Bedros on the open forum idea in the Armenian American media. There is certianly a large volume of evidence to suggest that Armenian existence in Asia Minor dates beyond even the 4th millennium mark.
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A while back I crossed paths with a remarkable individual who used the pseudonym Karapi Lich (Swan Lake), and had acquired the skill of collecting philoligical and archeological data and scientific proposals on such data that clearly shows Armenian existence was accepted as a matter of fact prior to the post-Genocide period.
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There was strong anti-Armenian bias in the German speaking academia shortly before and after the Genocide, which seemed puzzling to some of the students of Armenian ancestry studying in this academic network in the 1910s and 1920s. For example, a certain Nshan Martirosyan, a student of Berich Hrozny, was (in his words) "puzzled as to the adamance with which Prof. Hrozny refuses to acknowledge the link between Hayasa and Hay, Hayk, and Hayastan." I paraphrase this, but this is the abridgment of his comments. Martirosyan finally was able to lobby for the "possibility of the link," which is still tentative in the clearly anti-Armenian biased theorem which dominate the field up to now.
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The paradigm shift between what occurred under the leadership of Peter Jensen up to what amounts to dismissal of Armenian existence in total under the tutelage of Hrozny and Tumanov, for example, is well outlined by Hilmar Kaiser in his pamphlet on the paradigm shift that was led by none other than an archeologist named Alphonz Sussnizki. here's a google books link http://books.google.com/books?id=3FPlXClCxigC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=HILMAR+KAISER,+IMPERIALISM,+RACISM,+AND+DEVELOPMENT+THEORIES+-+THE.+CONSTRUCTION+OF+A+DOMINANT+PARADIGM+ON+OTTOMAN+ARMENIANS&source=bl&ots=Ar3UFVmOrG&sig=qaKme50TL95sm_NxMmXNWfLcrfs&hl=en&ei=3OrwSubVGYuXkQWS95yKBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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Thus, this period laid the foundations for an anti-Armenian paradigm which was wholly applied to Armenology in German speaking academia which at the time dominated this field of study. Although the Persophile bias did have its effects in French, English and German academics of the period preceding Sussnizki's anti-Armenian thrust, this post-1905 period saw much more anti-Armenian rantings passing off as "academicaly sound ruminations."
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There are professionally written articles which refute the current paradigm. Unfortunately, there is little if any organized effort by professional historians, philologists and archeologists to bring this mass of information into a coherent and intelligible form.
Although, this article is now outdated, but anyways, YES, you are right Hagopn, I personally know some of the signatories that have not even heard about these de-Armenization issue, and probably did not spend 5 minutes to find out what this statement is all about. As soon as they read the title of the statement (i.e. "Intellectual Freedom and Integrity of Research") they immediately signed it.
As for myself, I have been following this de-Armenization processes for almost 20 years now, ever since my UCLA student days. So, I have a prove about the State Department involvement. Yes, it is very much provable.
Concerning the Armenians in relation to Urartu, we have now a near mathematical prove that Urartian is indeed old Armenian (by the way, it's not U-RA-R-TU, it never was, it was misread ever since the beginning of 19th century. The true pronunciation is AR-AR-AT. In the same fashion, EREBUNI is also misread, it is EREVANI). The prove was published in a 2 volume book by Sarkis Ayvasyan in 2003, these books are free, here is the link where you can download the PDF form of both volumes:
http://www.noravank.am/am/?page=theme&thid=6&nid=1637
The revolt against the falsifiers intensified because of Sarkis Ayvasyan and Albert Mousheghyan discoveries, besides those of the other’s (ՎԱՆԻ ԹԱԳԱՎՈՐՈՒԹՅԱՆ ՍԵՊԱԳԻՐ ԱՐՁԱՆԱԳՐՈՒԹՅՈՒՆՆԵՐԸ Սարգիս Այվազյան and «Խորենացու դարը» Ալբերտ Մուշեղյան).
Thanks for your comment.
Haro
"Ulimately I am of Anatolia Stock, not Caucasian" is an ignorant and uneducated comment for someone claiming to have a grasp of history of the region.
-
I for one claim Armenia as part of my ancestral right of a homeland. Apparently the "my village your village" primitivism and provincialism has managed to creep into the "minds" of some here.
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Paruyr Sevak warned us against this, and he was ignored by some "minds" up above. I would wager that few here have delved into the Soviet Armenian's more honest and enlightened conceptuatlizations of what it means to be a nationalist Armenian. Sevak exemplified what it meant to be a nationalist Armenian who embraced all Armenians as his own and all historical and currently Armenian controlled territory as his homeland. Not merely in poetry, but also in critical prose he dealt with this issue.
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Thus, the esoteric nonsense about "Turkishness and Armeniannes" above not only means nothing to the Armenian nationalist, but it is in fact a tool to discredit the desire to maintain statehood.
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One simple factoid to the ignoramous commentary of "Anatolian versus Caucasian:" The majority of Armenians living in the current Republic, the Caucasus remnant of the historic Armenian state, have originated from the Ottoman controlled portion. My wife is from a family who migrated to the Armavir region in the 1890s from the Shadakh region of Van. My family is originally from Aynteb (originally from Ani/Akhurian), and quite frankly our cultural identities are one and the same: We are Armenians with the same cultural trimmings and traditions. We are from a primordial culture in relative terms compared to the articial "civic identities" trumpled about above, and we are well aware of this.
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The pluralist fascism described above as some "civic identity" concoction is merely a rehashing of an Ottoman pluralist thecracy in the making. We are pretending to witness the ascendence of an "enlightened era of Turkish wesrternization," but the tell tale signs are that Turkish medievalism is on the re-ascendency instead. Hrant Dink was a loss for Armenians, not Turks nor Turkey, although Dink himself did not realize this perhaps to his death.
-
If the "Turkish nationalist of Armenian background" is who I think he is, then I can verify that he was proven to be a non-Armenian posthumously. It is however irrelevant. Some ignoramous who thinks of himself as a "Turkish citizen" or even an inherited "Ottoman citizen" is of no consequence. You would have to be quite unconscious to forget that "Ottoman citizen" is a non-entity in an empire of conquered subjects.
Murat is the classic propagandist. The vast majority of Armenians - who were not townsfolk but peasantry, were assimilated forcefully with overwhelming and crippling taxation laws, non-representation in the court system, constant sanctioned violence and looting. The "minority status" is a direct result of this constant and systenmaticaly de-Armenization of historic Armenia. There are more than enough documentation to prove this, but one highlighted set of events revolves around the Ottoman/Safavid conflict and the Jalalin rebellions, a period during which the Armenian populations were specifically targeted and systematically subjected to poverty levels that even precipitated cannibalism. I refer to the detailed narratives of Turkish language and Armenian language sources of this period in the latter half of the 16th and eartly 17th centuries. In this period alone we saw the systematic decimation of the Armenian identity.
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Today we see the continuation of this barbarism in the form of toponymic genocide where the Turkish authorities are still engaged in changing place names, geographical references, any remnants that seem Armenian into some artificial Turkish alternative.
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Murat is so pathetically typical it is not even humorous anymore. Murat would do well to keep silent if he is "well-meaning."
You are invited to…
Academic Conference on the Asia Minor Catastrophe
Westin Hotel, 6100 River Road, Rosemont, Illinois
Saturday, November 7, 2009
Hosted by The Pontian Greek Society of Chicago
Morning Session
8:00 – 8:30 Coffee and social hour
8:30 – 9:15 Opening remarks
9:15 – 9:30 Mr. George Shirinian (Director of the Zoryan Institute, Toronto Canada) Moderator
9:30 – 10:45 Dr. Taner Akcam (Associate Professor –History Dept., Clark University, Worchester, MA).
The Greek “Deportations” and Massacres of 1913-1914. A Trial Run for the Armenian Genocide
10:45 – 12:00 Dr. Constantine Hatzidimitriou (Adjunct Professor St. Johns University, NY)
Official and Unofficial American Reactions to the Asia Minor “Catastrophe” – what the Documentary Evidence Reveals
12:00 – 1:00 PM Lunch
Afternoon Session
1:00 – 2:15 Matthias Bjornlund (Historian and Researcher)
Aspects of Western Sources and Interpretations of the Pontian Genocide
2:15 – 3:30 Dr. Alexander Kitroeff (Associate Professor of History, Haverford College, PA)
The Plight of the Greek Refugees After the Break-up of the Ottoman Empire
3:30 – 4:45 Dr. Van Coufoudakis (Dean Emeritus of the College of Arts and Sciences Purdue University, Indiana)
Turkey’s Deliberate and Systematic Violations of International Agreements since 1923
4:45 – 5:00 Closing remarks by Dr. C. Hatzidimitriou
Placing the events of the Anatolian Genocide in the Broader Context of Hellenic and World History
For additional information : http://www.pontiangreeks.org.
Please call 630 303 4361 or send an email to gmavropoulos@hotmail.com
The Remembrance Year* Was Our Genocide**
Since remembrance year, our genocide began.
You lost young soldiers, martyred with their guns,
Went all willfully, defending the known crown,
Did not return, lamented by the king’s reign,
By parents, brides, and their countrymen.
You lost your bravest men, and we felt with you sad.
We lost almost all our nation in the draft.
From the newborns to Mounts Masses and Ararat,
Searching the life’s bread from skulls in the mud.
Forget everything, lost every lilting sound,
Stayed years in miseries like birds in unsown hide,
Immigrating with hopes from land to land,
With starved empty hands, protecting our pride.
As years passed by, we could lament not even sand.
What’s left to lament? Dry spirits faint!
If most relatives are gone and every piece of land,
No moods left to find mourned fans lads.
Please, just listen and understand.
This is not narration, real bodies with soulful hearts.
Born in civilization, has history, Goddess . . . God
Everyone reads history but takes it for grant.
Yet some ignore, turning to cold-blooded side,
Leaving unlucky nations for chances to hunt,
Dying for known faith, principles in their blood.
Others forget the “same faith” and, hence, genocide.
When you remember your armistice day,*
Please remember for your soldier’s sake
Our slaughtered unborn sons—undelivered ones
Who never grew to become soldiers, young men!
Add another leaf to your red poppy,
Turning remembrance date, humanitarian
As we have not yet regained our rights;
Of civilized hearts, the martyred prides reign.
_____________________
* November 11, 1918
** Armenian Genocide April 24, 1915
** Armenian Genocide April 24, 1915
Dear Haro,
Firstly, I think in Armenian, as well as in Spanish,(lived there 24 yrs)Persian and some French.In short a melange of these and thence my English:Though near 60 yrs ago I went to school In London,but that is besides the question.You seem to follow the line of this forum¨editor,who deleted one of my comments.Never mind ,I can guess you are a tough Dashnagtsagan,that also in view ,I would like topoint out to you that I am non-partisan and will stay so.Witness my own articles and posts in my own www.Armenidad-worldwide.org... My main concern is to get the Spyurk re-organized(like we tried back in 1979 at Paris,viz Armenian Congress).This indeed may not be of total approval or interest of existing Armenian political parties and /or other establishments who afre at the forefront-though I never write anything against them-fact is, I do respect all of them for work done so far and wish them success and continuance...thinking we are or aspire to be atolerant non-jealous people.Alas it is not so as yet...
Nonetheless I suspect(now about your post to me)that you are totally disappointed as to what´s going on in Hayastan.I agree with you it should not be as is,but then,where were our Diaspora org.s when they brought on the LTP (Western-style,rather American style Democracy-i.e,read "wild" -my view "Free market economy".Armenia ,plus the other 14 other ex-soviet republics should have gone through a transitional period,much like Greece,Portgual and Spain did, before joining the EU.All three were disctatorships,but they chose the mild Swedish,Danish etc., Euro-Socialsim and after some 12-13 years of said rule by and by adapted to the "free market economy" Not so, with the 15 ex-soviet republics.They turned overnight from harsh dictatorships to said "free -market" wild one.
Now my response to you anti-chronologically.:-
Hazgerd is famed for his cunning,so I hope will be Serj´s -and it so far is following that line,the ball is in great Turkey´s field-please follow the news and what I wrote up above..shall I repeat?Their Parliament has to come forth and ratify.<O.<K.?' Now then, if they don´t then the world diplomacy will put the blame on them.Your remarks ,as to he wanting to convert us into turks is irrelevant.He is Armenian 100% don´t worry about that.
I agree Armenian political parties in RA(remember they started off with 60 or so, now reduced to two dozen.Pretty much like the press there.At one time there were over 300 ,now reduced considerably.But then this is characteristic of Armenians..forget about that.Time will redress that. Most important now for us Armenians is to have better relations with RA-Alas,the newly(a year old) Mindiaspora,though is following a line that I "suggested" that of inviting classiifed groups of Professionals in stead of droves -like, 2000 to the Hamalir-it falls short of appointing alongside -on a yearly basis-One,at least , co-president,co- Ministre, vice Ministre,whatever and this each year -on a rotative basis:-
A .One from N.America, B. next year from Europe(France actually) C.Middle East,able and seasoned activists-politicians to be THERE in RA.For little do they know about the Spyurk and its policies etc.,Thus a real (LI-Irav)full-fledged(hosw´s my English now,sparing you from translation)partnership will surface-result. Otherwise,when the present Ministre or any other visits any of those countries and that for short stunts-a few days, or even one day stops..nothing tangible can be achieved.
As regards my contributing to Armenian weekly in Armenian,I regret though my Armenian -both <Western and Eastern, may be considered more or less up to standards of say "Haratch"Armenian daily´s,- now stopped being published,hopefully to beocme a weekly soon-might do,but then I did not learn to write on line in Armenian letters.I do now and then as in my web page write in Latin letters,but Armenian.I am afraid I cannot go any further.Am to attend my own daily chores etc.
with kind regards and
Hama Haigagani SIRO,gaytzag palandjian
TO JDA RE GEOFFREY ROBERTSON QC'S OPINION:
MILLION THANKS! SUCH A VALUABLE STUDY & EVERYBODY SHOULD READ & KEEP IT.
EXCELLENT ARTICLE!
BRAVO DEAR Mr. SASSOUNIAN!!!
THANK YOU!
I second Janine, why we mostly hear about such interesting events and lectures after they take place and thru articles. Why can't the people in charge announce such events, we are in the 21st century and live in a technology environment, e-mails, texts, internet etc.
Organizers, please do a better job in the future and announce to the public such events.
Dear Tom,
Another fine article bringing hope to those who may or may not suffer from a chronic or terminal illness. It is great to read these articles, and give others inspiration to never give up!!! As always the best prescription is a positive attitude. My prayers go out to Susan and her family. I would like to recommend a great book called "29 Gifts" for all your readers. It is an inspirational book.
Hye, Henry Astarjian, your Opinion piece was very educational for me. I learned a lot, I've lived some you wrote of... at least I always felt that 'my' people were there... IN THE ARENA! We were there over all the years, maintaining our Armenian nation's identity, our Armenian flag, and the church I attended stood for all the right reasons - and if any erred, it was better than being always on the wrong side of the page... which we still have today! I was saddened that my brethern in the USSR had to exist under the communism, which to this day has left it mark, i.e. Serge. So, Dumanian, critics are a dime a dozen, but I can accept being in the wrong on occasion, as I may have been, but at least I was on the right trolley... and still, am proud to be there! Manooshag
The British government's claim that its up to historians to decide whether there was a genocide of Armenians and not a government's responsibility is an inconsistent posture. After all, the British government, without the assistance of any historian, has decided that what happened in Rwanda, Serbia, Cambodia were genocides.
Very true Hagop.. Very true..
What a bunch of sorry, spineless saps. Shame on the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
It seems that heavy handed pressure from legions of special interests representing Ankara have overridden Downing Street with falsities. I recall when the Monarchy and HMG stood for the protection of human rights and the sanctity of justice not their demise by being an accomplice to the Turkish governments attempts to whitewash history.
Kudos to the Armenian Centre of London and the diligent work ethic of Mr. Robertson.
I could not elieve my ears and eyes,watching on T.V today that the Greeks (presumably in Istanbul) are lodging a claim against the republic of Turkey for 400 billion dollars for ahving destroyed their churches etc., in the (then) Ottoman Empire...
So the story does not end with just the Armenian ones...
Now git a load of that..There is more to come...
One who knows to be patient...
Denis,
I see, in fact, you meant Sevan's talk.
I check books and papers that I can retrieve and send you some interesting scanned papers or photographies.
A practical questions is : "where is the link to attach file to comment, on this site ?"
May I suggest you to create an Anonymous Mail Box to receive those files?
Give my 4 or 5 days to collect and scan.
Regards
A_H
Dear George,
While I remember you from a conference in N.Y more than a dozen years ago,I have now and then read you online.I am surprised that no one has so far made mention of the "Ottoman Turkish Military Tribunal"..(see prof.Vahakn Dadrian´s book on that, dug up from their government archives)
Their own tribunal...that passed judgement on the criminals Talaat,Enver,Jemal and the rest of the bunch condemning them.Indeed we all know that these criminals then escaped supposedly, to Malta, Italy ,Berlin and other areas in order not to be punished.
But they did get punished as they deserved by our avengers..
So why so much fuss about their ahving to be proved again and again...
This is pure turkish concocted up tries to prove otherwise.
I repeat, THEIR OWN MILITARY TRIBUNAL passed pretty fair judgement on them.The masterminds of the Armenian Genocide!!!!
HOW FORGETFULL CAN THESE ARMENIANS BE...loss of memory?
Hama HaIGAGANI siro,
GAYTZAG PALANDJIAN
Excellent, George, as always!
George,
Your last sentence says it all: "We do not need defeatism disguised as realism any longer."
Our community’s civic discourse, far too often, becomes defined and even dominated by a small minority relentlessly pushing a particularly fatalist brand of world-weary cynicism that reflexively counsels surrender in the face of each and every challenge.
Let there be no mistake: This is a sickness.
That is not to say that we should ignore words or warning or fail to heed calls to reason.
What it does mean is that we must make a special effort to understand the roots of such persistent strains of defeatism, and, armed with this knowledge, show and teach and inspire the doubters among us that hope and hard work are brothers.
Aram
Ah, I see, yet another panel discussion devoid of political leaders but full of Phds. Yes, I know that Mr. Aghjayan is not a Phd - but he is the moderator, not a panelist.
Our panel discussions lately (that is, for the last 25 or so years) are composed of Phds who usually want to study the Genocide until the cows come home.
That's partly how the land and reparations issues got shunted way, way off to the side: Instead of talking politics and demands, we let the Phds prattle on endlessly about the genocide.
How did our community come to be led by Phds as if they are gods? I don't quite understand (actually, I understand quite well) why a Phd makes you so qualified to speak about politics, especially when the Phd was not actually earned in political science and when the person with the Phd represents no one except himself. I am not saying everyone should not be able to have his or her say, including Phds. But why the obsession with Phds? Did Dro, Aram Manoogian, and Sossie Mayrig have Phds? Did General Antranig? Does Obama? Did Reagan? Does the US Congress?
Again, though there are exceptions, where are the Armenian American political leaders that can articulate a political agenda and political demands, inspire people, and hold their own on a panel? I can think of maybe one or two. This is pathetic.
Dear Hay,
You may send your photos and docs to my e-mail: serveks@tnn.net
All the best,
Denis
It is not a far stretch to understand that a phony elected unqualified president will act in a way and create policy that is in no way beneficial to the whole? The protocols are as much of a sham as Sargysian. The fraudulent system needs to go! For far too long the diaspora Armenians have had a hands off approach to Armenian politics thinking we are all in the same boat. The diaspora can not and must not allow corrupt men and systems to dictate to the whole anymore. It will sink all of us. UNDERSTAND THIS: The Turks in no way will ever admit, let alone offer any form of compensation to the Armenians. That is a pipe dream. We were gullable in 1915 when the Turks told the Armenians "not to worry" and we must not be gullable now!
The Rwandan Tribes Signed Their Own Genocide*
Genocide recurred,
This time between tribes.
Born from the same century,
Lived on the same ground.
Who can understand
Why they did what they all did?
Nations stayed watching
Till lives ended, unread.
Hate and hate and hate
Abolishes all faiths,
Aggravates, dominates till it slays
Even newborns in wombs, in shade.
I watched many documentaries on TV
As if the bones, like branches of trees,
Fell down, dried like sticks unbound,
Moved by birds, rats on the bare grounds.
This is what humanity called
Kill slay and then cry wail.
Can Rwandan ask them selves?
Why that jetted innocent blood was crazed?
What does it mean to pray
For bones that can no longer be buried.
Waiting to be carried?
To rest unmarried!
On sins, none can creed!
___________________
* Rwandan genocide sparked between Tutsi and Hutu tribes after the death of president J. Habyarimana. His plane was shot down in Kigali airport on April 6, 1994. It was estimated that one million people died. Most of those who perpetuated the violence were Hutus.
From the book " A poetic Soul Shined of Genocides" by Sylva Portoian,MD (Auguast 2008)
Tatul is the man.
Dear George,
I would like to refer only to two of the points mentioned by you .One, "Finally what can be done today?"
And "others are taking notes and that creates oppertunity".
My response to these,antichronologically:-
Whom do you refer to, the most important "Trio",namely Hillary Clinton,Javier Solana and Lavrov that showed up at the Zurich protocol signing ? you truly expect these having taken note-as you write-they can be relied on to profess sympathy towards us....I doubt that very very much.They will not do that.They are governed by their ultimate interests only,period.And that again means support to their"ally" great Turkey and in extension to the oil rich little brother Azerbaijan.
I f you wished to convey that many other"watchers", i.e. not directly involved states, then please be informed that they are excluded by the aforementioned present "world policy makers",nay directors. Now to the question you pose as " finally what can be done today". My "suggestions"now:-
1. While our present efforts "trusted" to ,or just plain carried forth- as they wish- by a few Armenian political parties and their offshoots, in Diaspora and or Homeland, trying very hard to convince the above trio that they pay attention to our plight and plea may go on -rather futile attempts,by the by-for they are guided only by their own interests in the area(viz.the Caspian basin and adjacent Caucasus states) it behooves them(both RA government and Diaspora, to begin to seartch "partners" elsewhere.This is being conducted meanwhile -whether you like it or not-only by Homeland-yes Serj´s government. Whereas, unfortunately the few Diaspora political parties are spending much of their time and efforts and lobbying,not to mention meagre funds ,(as compared to great Turkey´s) this ought to go on indeed , I am not against it, with the trio,but fruitless strifes. Or at the most ,like mentioned get some symbolic handouts.
2.Some ,who like to believe that our recently re-independent Republic can act against the "wishes" of the trio are in for yet another blunder,surprise and/or wishfull thinking negative results. Neither the Homeland nor its Diaspora can achieve substantial objectives on the international political scene. This, by the by has been proved several times over. All that can be expected from these are"promises" of some sort and /or symbolic handouts, instead. As I indicated in my previous above post,even without our such efforts "their",i.e. Ottoman Turkey´s "Military tribunal" did that long ago.
3.I am afraid the present Diaspora´s structure,needs to be re-structured around other than just political parties that hardly present any percentage-admirers included too.Regretfully these have been neglected . Our Huge Collectivities that can today come forth as a Dynamic supporting wing or better yet an as an organized Entity that is comprised of 100,000 strong "Professional Colleagues Associations"members,both with their human resource and above all a"National Investment Trust Fund",in this respect please visit my web page www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org,especially read my Pre Conference 2002 up on top and also Bulletin No.7 to the right of it.To resume now:-
We must mobilize our so far neglected-sorrowfully-above BODY of ours that needs to be put into action.Thanks for reading me and hopefully visiting my site.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
ex-Board member of the 1979 Armenian Congress of Paris
Dear Gaytzag,
Thank you for your comments, but I beg to differ - which was really the point of the article.
Whether purposeful or not, whenever I (or others) state that certain things can be achieved, the chorus of discent inevitably reponds that we are weak and the the strong are governed by interests not sympathy. This is a sickness we must be cured of as a community!
Please indicate where I have said that the U.S., Russia or any other country will forgoe their interests for ours. What I am saying is that to believe that our interests NEVER align with those of more influential powers is as naive as what you attribute to me.
Do we have no one that can analyze the interests of these countries to find areas of common interest? Are we that pitiful?
My reference to others taking note of Turkey's ascendent power was to countries like Israel, for instance. And if they are not taking note, then it should be us that points it out.
George
What a wonderful job shining light on a modest person who would never take a spotlight himself. Thank you! Tatul is a great individual - the unsung hero of this community. All the organizations, including ALMA, benefit gratly from having MENK .
Dear George,
Firstly nowhere in my above post have I attributed to you -personally-what is being conducted w/rgd to the powers(the trio)of today.It was meant to our joint,nay sepertely conducted efforts by our political parties.Again ,not you.Now back again -chronologically-to your last line especially.
You must be aware that Harut Sassounian,our ex-officio spokesman is doing that quite well,i.e. pointing out to Israel especially.Surely you do read his column.Then that is taken care of,however,I doubt it if Israel and Turkey will ever become antagonists or mildly put ,competitors...
Then again you still delve into ,further up "do we have no one that can analyse the interests of these countries to find common interests? you ask.No, a blatant NO!
The only -we thought-advantage - interest- or item of interest was Armenia being -as many many times over repeated its Geographic position.Not so,regretfully.See what the great Oil producing companies did when they decided they would pass the Oil pipeline-side stgepping RA...Now they speculate-through great Turkey the Nabuco such line.Their FM recently mentioned ,as alternative Armenia could be a good transit one---no doubt using it as enticement.When in my writs I have previously hinted that if and when we -very hypothetic-gain recognition of our Genocide, we might through the government sof those Oil companies press that a cdertain percentage of oil transit duties be paid to Armenia and Armeninians,which might be another way to have Turkey pay reparations-compensation.I like the last one though and that for BLOOD MONEY.Land reparations is a very long period issue .Their diplomacy,viz. <Turkey´s, is very much aware of this that is why they make such hints-that again a supposition.Their line is and will be very adamant in refusing to accept that their predecessor govfernments committed that horrendous crime to us.The only way they may be disposed to ,or better yet cede to accomodate us is via "others" transit duties..
Now,protocols:-They expect to gain from the signing of these,not loose anything.Thus, if and when borders are opened ,we all know they will swarm the small Armenian markets-already well furbished-supplied with their cheap and semi cheap goods and PLUS, any exports from Armenia will be subject to Turkish Transit duties.That is what they are working at. One more thing.If some "paremid" not to say "barzamid" compatriots think THEY WILL NOT COME TO TZITZERNAGAPERT and kneel there and pay homage and regrets,they are very much mistaken.The turk will notg only kneel but kiss the ground-all this to appease and caress the aforementioned barzamids..
Actually their style is to come to that, very slowly.Remember,or do you? not ever the word "Ermeni" was uttered by their media or otherwise only a few years ago..Now their press,T.V. etc.does nothing more than bring up the "Ermeni" question-protocols what not..which goes to show their very carefull ,slowly coming to grips-like they did for long -not recognizing that the "mountainturks" were actually K U R D S..also by and by softening their attitude to the latter.Just read the news in this respect.
That is Ottoman inherigted richly cunning mode of handling delicate matters.Meanwhile, we think they will never do that.What a big mistake.They will in said fashion,but always evade "compensations" reparations. Indeed I can fortell , as yet another enticement -appeasement ,they will most probably-they ar already doing it ,what with repairs of ANI ruins-throw in Mount Ararat with its surrounding area as a symbolic gesture-ABOVE ALL TO SHOW TO THE WORLD THAT THEY ARE INDEED VERY GRACIOUS AND KIND TOWARS THEIR PREVIOUS "RAYAS"...
THAT IS WHY i HAVE INSISTED AND STILL DO ,OUR 500 strong BAR associations int´l attorneys should carefully prepare OUR CLAIM FOR ...."blood money"..
Only day before yesterday the Greeks(Istanbul patriarc or metropoli, whatever) began to drop hints of lodging a claim of no less than 400 billion dollars for Greek .Pontian etc.,monuments ,churches etc., destroyed by Turkey and7or confiscated. Times change very rapidly,while the Armenian Diaspora slumbers and is content with political give and take on very old style...
Please ..E.&.O. excepted-
Gaytzag palandjian
It's also worth it to check out the free online book available on Armeniapedia. An entire course on teaching yourself Eastern Armenian.
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Language_Lessons
LTP didn't win the elections. He may have won enough to call for a run off, but he certainly didn't win. If Paron Aghjayan has an agenda, then you sir, most certainly do as well, and it is filled with much fluff and rubbish.
Also, please take a course on geopolitics, the deal with turkey is a Russian project and has been from day one, the best the west can do is put on a happy face and try to make the best of it. It has very little to do with the March 1st events, and not all the protestors were peaceful as you would have us believe.
I never heard of this "Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform." I found this blurb on it: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=9601. Apparently, along with the Armenian and Turkish academics, "Austrian experts will also participate in the meeting." Substitute "Swiss" for "Austrian", and you have the Protocols' "Historical Commission."
Dumanian, I appreciate your close watch of the Dashnak party's MO. I truly do, and I do agree with you.
Aghjayan's article, as far as I can tell, dealt with the matter of silencing any opposition to the protocols, particularly the historical commission clause, by using the ARF's associations and lack of action in the past.
I find that article's value to be that of a reminder of central issues. If George wants to whitewash his party's image in order to weaken the trend of "guilt by association," then I can't blame a dedicated diasporan Dashnak for trying--:)
In any case, I find your article a complement to, not as much a critique of, George's article. Besides, George is really a great guy--:)
To George Aghjayan and "Contributor" s above post:-
While you two guys are entangled in political give and take -Armenian style-I would inform you both that great Turkey IS SOFTENING UP,like I wrote to Geroge in "their" way...
Just go to Lragir.am and read about the Armenian St. Giragos church being repaired...and the Istanbul patriarch´s asistante´s-for he is ill-archbishop Ateshian´s report from Diarbekir...
Yes work has been started to repair said church -another showcase for great Turkey and of course their policy of showing to the world-especially EU that they are becoming "democratic"...
Archbishop Ateshian has expressed " that I am dreaming of the day when an Armenian congregation will enter and pray in this church"...No further comments -by me-
Does this not show how they manipulate the Armeno -Turkish rapproachement?
go figure that out,in stead of fighting ea other over LTP,ARF etc.,
While I am at it,indeed the elections were rigges and that very openly,as even without that it was pretty clear and obvious Serj had not been able to obtain enough votes, but then ARF, PLUS Arthur Bagdassarian´s "Orinats Yerlkir", country of LAW stepped in and provied enough more votes to offset LTP´s-by a coaltion,plus Barkavaj Hayastan...We all know that Youngmen!!
This was indeed a good act,since RA did not wish -the majority as above showed LTP´s rule back.However, Serj has been carefull in appointing a few ,more or less able persons to posts-positions in his government to carry on ,otherwise it would have been worse.
This is the core of the issue,no need to praise one and downgrade the other(s).We are all armenians after all ,like Saroyan has written somewhere..
What the Diaspora needs to do instead of aforementioned interparty or their admireres´intervention is to RE-ORGANIZE,put our own house in Spyurk in order,so as it can really become a LI-IRAV (full-fledged) partner with Homeland and ...begin to have a REAL SAY AS one voice. This is crucial,since as it has been observed the RA government is naive in this respect,they do know that the Diaspora can muster up clout ,but they are waiting to see ACTION in this respect.
Whereas, we, in Diaspora are -unfotunately-busy discussing,rather disputing ea other´s "erroneous " deeds.Much energy and time could be spared if the Diaspora learnt its lesson and commenced to tolerate ea other and respect any,repeat any good "suggestion" come from any source, whether this ,that political party or non so.Take care not to fragment the Diaspora any further,gather up speed and get rolling.This inter-party and/or just plain individual give and take will lead us nowhere..
what we need is planned strategy and a mechanism that will conduct us to become a noticdeable Diaspora with its Superstructure, with its Supreme Council,no ,not only by existing political parties and other establishments that are on the scene, but through a crystalization mode, that, which this humble servant of the Armenian people has been developing over many yeasrs 30, to be exact.Please visit my web page www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org and click-if you don´t have time to read all- on Pre Conference 2002 and especially my "A New Concept of Electoral System and Governance" in Bulletin No. 7
Thanks for reading me and please
E.& O.excepted,
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
ADDENDUM!!!
NEW SCENARIO:- On Armenian T.V. Last night-I have all 3,Shant ,USArmenia and H1.
Mr. Cafesjian flies into Yerevan in his private Jet.Welcomed as is appropritate to a benefactor.O.K.?
Well ,yes! but this is a personal Initiative-like All Armenian benefactors do_Aganj Khosi Ara Baliozian-i ,i.e. his critique re BBB´s that is Bishops, Benefactors and Bosses...figure out!
Whereas ,this is very characteristic of all Benefactors , I said that,How would it have been if this gentleman-with all respect to him and the others such, If...
they had gathered together like in my Pre Conferecne 2002(see my sweb .www.Armenidad-worldwide.org, I had meekly "suggested" to form the NUCLEUS,,(Goriz) of the coveted "National Invested Trust Fund" , togetherwith the Manoogians, Vatche Manoukian(U.K.) Ernekian of B-Aires , the Hovnanians and Kirk Kirkorianand had each chipping in, with 2/3 hundred million dollars and more,thus ,attracting the rest of our not billionaires but millionaires first, then the further lower 100,000 dollars upward, then 10,000 dollars downward and even the 1,000 dollar ones,MAKING UP A ROUND 2 BILLION DOLLAR OR MORE WORKING CAPITAL OF SAME!!!! EH ...
You see, I had pointed out in said "paper" that stayed 4.5 yrs on Armeniadiaspora.com,togetherwith 6 others´"paper"s, that the only way our 100,000 strong "Profesional colleagus associations" yet to be completed-only 5 on the scene, so far...we could do the following:-
These Borad of the "magnates" would appoint their monetary experts to invest said capital into ONLY SECURE GOVERNMENT BONDS, bringing in, some 5/6% interst per annum ,Of which 3/4% would go to Investors,or less, rest would accumulate compounding to -capital!! and albeit a half percent charges for maintaining said offices(16,each field of Proffession,its office,all in one building) in Geneva,CH, then Loans would be granted through National Bank of RA -against mortgaged property what not to the, middle and small traders, village farmers etc., who NOW PAY OR HAVE TO PAY A hefty 14% to BANKS -that by the by have sprung up in Yerevan-, one after the other sucking the blood pof the aforementioned .
Is this not a PITY!!!!-true Mr. Cafesjian did a good job so did K.K. and the rest but each on his her own and their way. NO CONCERTATION, no team-work and premediated planned programming: to help the said small ones,especially far flung rural areas of RA. I am not a partisan , but I do tend to lean towards the Swedish, Danish finnish Euro Socialist system .At least this is what the three Euro countries , namely, Greece, Portual and Spian did -going through the mild Euro socialism for 12 /13 yrs, before going full-blast "free market economy" Alas the 15 ex-soviet republics-Armenia inclusive-went overnight ,from the soviet disctatorship system to the "wild" free market one, thus paving the way for the POLARIZATION of the Armenian populace in RA.Well, they asked for it they got it ,would say one that loves the capitalistic system at its best,the "wild" one..
Whereas ,especially a near third rate country such as RA should have adopted the Euro one.Indeed, it is not too late.We can still redress that,beginning indeed from the Diaspora(s) and, by and by try to convince our partners in RA to follow suit.I do not mean that the western, France,U.S. etc. compatriots try to implement that in their residing countries, but help do that in RA.
this much for now.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytazg palandjian
ex-Board member(elected by 400 participants along 6 more )
to the executive board of same, 30 yrs ago...in Paris Armenian Congress.
Does anyone know if there is also a free on-line course in Western Armenian?
I would like to thank Henrik Dumanian for his comments. I am particularly pleased at the anger and passion he conveys while at the same time offering thoughtful and reasoned arguments - once again proving that our collective outrage is rational. My objective was not to justify 20 years of ARF policy in Armenia, but was a response to those attempting to use sweeping condemnation of that policy to dismiss legitimate criticisms of the current predicament. I may take some minor exception to some of his points, but nonetheless Mr. Dumanian's criticisms are healthy and welcome.
I thought that Mr. Aghjayan's original article was good and that Mr. Dumanian's response was also very useful.
The first comment above, by "AR", asks Dumanian to "take a course on geopolitics." I didn't know there was a course on Caucasus geopolitics that explained it all. May I ask Mr./Ms./Mrs. "AR": where did you take courses on geopolitics? Moscow State University? Baku State University? Georgetown? Ankara City University?
Also, since you are apparently a world-reknowned expert, perhaps you can provide readers with the names of some good universities with courses on Caucasus geopolitics that you would recommend and some references to informative articles on the subject of geopolitics in the Caucasus.
Mr. Aghjayan,
I thank you for your reply. I know you're a much loved and respected man in your community and your chapvats response to my scathing letter only adds to your character.
If I missed your point, I think you also missed mine. I think you did, in fact, try to justify 20 years of ARF policy in Armenia by wrongly claiming that "efforts counter to Armenia’s national interests have been in play for the past decade, but until recently they have been resisted," and "A more accurate portrayal is that the ARF attempted to work within the system." That sounds like a justification to me.
You also said "The error of the ARF was not in being part of the coalition, but instead relying solely on that strategy." As explained in my article, joining the coalition in 2008 directly contributed to the "mirage of legitimacy." You didn't shoot the victim, but you definitely helped tie his arms to stop him from escaping. Therefore, joining the coalition in and of itself was in fact an error. The Armenian Assembly didn't sign the protocols, but aren't they responsible for its disastrous consequences? Of course they are.
More importantly (and this is the point I hope to one day elaborate on in an article), these contradictions in ARF policy continue to this day. Vahan Hovhanisian admitted that the system of government itself locks the people out from any healthy participation, but has chosen to define and base the ARF's opposition status on one issue (the Protocols). You're essentially admitting that the government operates inside a large and thick dome, and instead of trying to crack the dome open, you're complaining about something going on inside it. Even before the Protocols hysteria, the ARF admitted the Republican party and Sarkisian rigged Yerevan's mayoral election to an extent never before seen in Armenia, but still decided to stay in the coalition. Does this remotely make sense?
The reason why I go to such lenghts to outline these contradictions is because there are very important reasons behind then. Reasons that are well known and well established facts amongst the citizens of Hayastan. The ARF in Armenia is like all the other "Orinats Yerkir," "Prosperous Party," "Republican Party," etc. -- they're there to give the Europeans and Americans the perception of diversity within the government, but essentially represent the same thing.
In last year's election, Artur Baghdasarian ran a campaign on par with LTP in terms of opposition to the regime. He claimed if Serge was elected president, Armenia was essentially doomed, and regime change was a must. The government allowed him to go on all of its TV channels, they funded his campaign and presented him as a safer alternative to LTP. He didn't have this luxury when he ran in 2003. In fact, since he was the main opposition candidate back then, they attacked him with the same veracity they attacked LTP in 2008. Why did Kocharian and Sarkisian decide to let him on TV and give him the podium in 2008? Because they needed someone to split the opposition vote -- he received about 17%. Days after Serge was "elected" -- he joined the coalition, went on TV, and pushed the "of course there were irregularities in the election, but the protesters need to go home and participate in a constructive way" line. Essentially saying...we have to work within the system. Sound familiar to Unger Vahan's rhetoric?
Absent any other legitimate opposition force to propel forward...they have decided to create one. Guess who's filling that niche now? http://hetq.am/en/society/boxoqi-akcia Why hasn't Yerkir media been shut down like Gala TV and A1+ have been? Why don't Dashnaks get attacked and beaten? Why aren't those hunger strikers being attacked by the police? It's because they are not a threat to the real danger in Armenian society: the mafia-clan system.
This is the perception the ARF has in Armenia. That is why you don't have any support. Look at the comments posted by Armenians in Armenia from that link I just posted. Shorter, less articulate, not as elaborate, but essentially saying the same thing.
You were a real opposition party in Armenia once, you know very well how a real opposition party gets treated by the Armenian government. This is not it.
I know you don't want to be in a party like that Mr. Aghjayan.
Sincerely,
Henrik Dumanian
People living in a glass house should not stone others houses. How do we think our lobby is getting traction in WDC? What happens if they start publishing the political contributions received by our resolution sponsors?
PROMOTING A BOGUS GENOCIDE IS AKIN TO COMMITTING THE CRIME OF ETHOCIDE*
(*) Ethocide: Systematic extermination of ethics via mass deception for political and other gain
Recent protocols signed by Turkey and Armenia stipulates the formation of a joints historians committee to study the events of 1915. The mere existence of such a suggestion, let alone its formations, and its acceptance by Armenia clearly shows that this issue is far from being settled history. Genocide is a claim, an unproven political claim violently promoted by the AFATH community (Armenian-Falsifiers-And-Turk-Haters). The effects of AFATH propaganda and intimidation can be seen in locations where Armenians are concentrated: Glendale, Fresno, Beirut, Lyon, Marseille… These locations also happen to be where Armenian terrorism has flourished (see a partial list of Armenian acts of terror at www.turkla.com )
Genocide verdict cannot be passed by activists, lobbyists, agents, fanatics, editorials, academics, politicians, clergy, or others. There is one and only one venue for that: a competent tribunal. That is what the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention demands in articles 3 and 6. Why? Because this court (ICJ) is equipped weed fact from fiction and allow a fair chance for the accused to cross examine claims, evidence, witnesses and produce their own in their defense. (www.ethocide.com)
Jewish Holocaust is a proven at Nuremberg , but Armenian claims were never tested at a court of law. Armenian claims are mostly based on hearsay and forgeries and, therefore, do not even the slimmest chance of withstanding the scrutiny of a courtroom. Armenians know this well which is why they avoid courts on this issue like a plague (they will sue the insurance companies for money but not Turkey at ICJ for genocide claims. www.tallarmeniantale.com )
Armenians find it easy to distort and misrepresent a true suffering of all peoples of Anatolia (not just Armenians) via media, academia, politics, religion, and other avenues where both information and opinions can be manipulated, molded, bought, or sold. Armenians deliberately exaggerate and falsify stories of human suffering and use it interchangeably with the term genocide, ignoring the fact that not all suffering is genocide. For a war crime to be genocide, the intent must be proven at a court of law. To date, not a single document has been unearthed in the Ottoman archives which substantiate Armenian claims. This led the Armenians to fabricate some, like the infamously fake telegrams of Talat forged by Andonian, the tall tales and bogus stories in Toynbee’s wartime propaganda book, the Blue Book, and more . All of this tainted propaganda material which the Armenians still use today were flatly and categorically rejected by the British crown prosecutors who refused to use them as evidence in the stillborn Malta Tribunal (1919-1921.)
While some in unsuspecting public may be forgiven for taking the blatant and ceaseless Armenian propaganda at face value and believing Armenian falsifications merely because they are repeated so often, it is difficult and painful for us Turkish-Americans, the children of Turkish survivors on four wars between 1911-1922, Armenian revolts, treason and terrorism being present on most of those years, if not all. Those endless “War years” brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left untouched. Those nameless, faceless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide today.
Allegations of Armenian genocide are racist and dishonest history. They are racist because they ignore the Turkish dead: about 3 million during WWI; more than half a million of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists. And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss the six T’s of the Turkish-Armenian conflict:
1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings between 1877 and 1921)
2) TERRORISM (by well-armed Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims between 1882-1920 and then again 1973 to current)
3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1921)
4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, the would-be first apartheid of the 20th Century with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority )
5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, per Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with about 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI. Grand total: more than 3 million, according to Prof. Justin McCarthy.)
6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.)
If one cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, therefore, one should ruse the term “Turkish-Armenian conflict”. Asking one “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” simply shows anti-Turkish bias. The question should be re-phrased “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?” Turks believe it was an inter communal warfare mostly fought by Turkish and Armenian irregulars, a civil war which is engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenian revolutionaries, with active support from Russia, England, France, and others, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire, against a backdrop of a raging world war. Armenians, on the other hand, totally ignoring Armenian agitation, raids, rebellions, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish victims killed by Armenians, unfairly and deceptively claim that it was a one way genocide.
Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to also ignore the following:
1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.)
2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a "competent court" after "due process" where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined.
3- For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” at a competent court and after due process. This could never be done by the Armenians whose evidence mostly fall into five major categories: hearsay, mis-representations, exaggerations, forgeries, and “other”.
4- Such a "competent court" was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.)
5- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier "alleged", for scholarly objectivity and truth.
History is not a matter of "conviction, consensus, political resolutions, political correctness, or propaganda." History is a matter of research, peer review, thoughtful debate, and honest scholarship. Even historians, by definition, cannot decide on a genocide verdict, which is reserved for a "competent court" with its legal expertise and due process.
What we witness today amounts to lynching of the Turks by Armenians to satisfy the age old Armenian hate, bias, and bigotry. Values like fairness, presumption of innocence until proven guilty, objectivity, balance, honesty, and freedom of speech are stumped under the fanatic Armenian feet. Unprovoked , unjustified, and unfair defamation of Turkey, one of America's closest allies in the troubled Middle East, in order to appease some nagging Armenian activists runs counter to American interests.
Those who claim genocide verdict today, based on the much discredited Armenian evidence, are actually engaging in "conviction and execution without due process", dictionary definition of “lynching”.
Isn’t it time to stop fighting the First World War and give peace a real chance?
That said, Yegparian's racist remarks about comparing Turkish-Americans to Nazis and KKK may have crossed the line into ethnic and religious discrimination and hate crimes. Turkish-Americans are law-abiding, tax-paying, proud American citiziens who are exercising their legals and democratic rights by partcipating in the election process. Yegparian's remarks about Turkish-American involvement in the election process, as if it is some sort of illegal or undesired activity, flies in the face of civil rights and freedom of speech of Turkish-Americans. After all, those very rights and freedoms are enshrined in the U.S. Constitution, not to be taken away by some Armenian fanatic promoting some bogus genocide.
Paul:
My geopolitics does, in this case especially, is provide a clearer and emotionless understanding of what is occuring in the region. Some Armenians are so busy looking at this whole protocol thing as if it is a national issue which originated with Serj or with some other figure in the Armenian or even turkish government. This couldn't be further from the truth. This whole issue is a lot bigger than ARF, ltp, and any other person or party you would like to mention from Armenia or the Diaspora. If some Armenians looked at this with a clear head instead of the paranoia they would see what Armenia has to gain from this, what it has actually 'given' up, which is nothing since you can't give what you don't have, and wouldn't resort to writing fluff such as the above article about last years Armenian elections.
As far as schools, I can tell you my degree is from an east coast school, on par with Georgetown's security studies program. I can tell you that a number of military and intelligence people were in many courses with me and there is a reason why the U.S. government suggests this particular program to their DoD employees.
As for articles, this is a good one, note sometimes the admins of Armenian weekly block url address but the article is from jamestown.org if it is blocked. But here is the gist of it:
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=35684&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7&cHash=4e50e9633a
Moscow's decisive military victory over Tbilisi in the summer of 2008 now seems to have been only a prelude. The military victory over Georgian, Turkish and Western interests in the Caucasus prepared the field for a diplomatic coup de grace. With one brilliant move Moscow has now finally brought down the house. Twenty years of close cooperation between Europe, America, Israel, Georgia, Turkey and Azerbaijan in the Caucasus has begun to crumble as a result of the Moscow sponsored protocol signing that took place between Armenia and Turkey two weeks ago in Switzerland. Ankara is now finding itself at odds with Baku. NATO is realizing that it may be gradually losing Turkey. Turkey is realizing that it is dependent on Russia. Baku is feeling forced to move closer to Moscow. Georgia is now effectively isolated and abandoned. Our Armenia, until recently bypassed and isolated, has suddenly become one of the most pivotal nations in the region and a strategic platform from which Moscow is projecting its power - military, economic and political - south into Turkey and beyond.
Also stratfor has some insightful articles on Armeno-turkish relations that you and others should read.
Mr. Dumanian, I also agree with everything you said in your article, though I too believe that LTP didn't win but there definitely should've been a runoff, which he'd probably win!
The above comments of Ergun Kirlikovali are yet another example of the lies perpetrated by the Turkish lobby to deny the facts about the Armenian Genocide that are well known and accepted by Genocide scholars around the world. Mr. Kirlikovali pops up all over the Internet posting his denialist drivel and he has the shameless audacity to publish a Web site called "The History of Truth" which is filled with lies. My ancestors are Anatolian and Thracian Greeks who were forced into exile by the Turks. The Armenian people suffered the most but the Turks killed many Greeks and Assyrians also. My ancestral village of Phocaea was a famous Ionian Greek city-state. The Turks committed a massacre there in 1914. Remember - Anatolia is a Greek word. Anatolia was a Christian land. The martyrs of Anatolia will haunt the Turkish nation founded upon Genocide until justice is done. Mr. Kirlikovali - how do you sleep at night denying the evil perpetrated by the Turkish nation?
Since the administrator here did not post my previous comments, I'll try another one. It is indeed a sad day in the diaspora when two sides of the political fence is represented by individuals such as Aghjayan and Dumanian. Aghjayan should realize that the ARF will remain a fringe party for the foreseeable future because it is constricted by its archaic political platform and a majority of its membership are way out of touch with the Armenian state. The ARF will eventually realize that by acting hysterical over the "protocols" it basically sabotaged itself and will be left out of future political developments. Some high ranking ARF-ers are beginning to realize this now but it's all a bit too late. Supporters of the treasonous criminal called Levon Petrosian must suffer from severe delirium. What can I say, there is no other explanation for their bizarre behavior. After having lived through the dark days of the 1990's with LTP at the helm, what sane individual would even consider bringing back Levon and his gang? Artsakh was liberated not because of Levon - but in spite or Levon! Whatever progress there has been in Armenia (and there has been a lot) it has come under Kocharyan and Sargsyan. The so-called "protesters" in Yerevan on March 1, 2008 were more like savage African tribesmen burning down their own village. In my opinion, the authorities at the time waited way too long to put a stop to them. Taking a close look at the two sides represented in this article, I realize that it's not for no reason when they say Armenians are pathetic when it comes to politics...
Shame on you Mr. Perlmutter. In abdicating your responsibility, you have tarnished your reputation and undermined our country's long history of upholding truth and justice.
As a constituent, I am utterly appalled by your lack of candor and forthrightness in breaking your promise to sponsor H. Res. 252 to recognize the indisputable facts of the Armenian Genocide. Cashing in on campaign contributions from unsavory defense contractors like Grumman and Raytheon is not the change I voted for.
I thought we did away with the majority of that group in January??? Their recent resurgence in New York and New Jersey is a telling reminder of what happens when spineless flip-flopper's compromise their integrity for patisan favors on behalf of lowly genocide denying scum like Mr. Livingston.
I hope you find your moral compass and donate those contributions to a worthy charity before its too late.
Kudos is due to Doug Claussen and the Eastern Colorado Paper for their honest and timely reporting.
« The above comments of Ergun Kirlikovali are yet another example of the lies »
In this case, it would be very easy to respond to Mr. Kirlikovali by facts and arguments, not only by assertions and insults like you do, isn't it?
My input to Avedis and others online:-I shall try to pinpoint and throw some more light on what has expired in Homeland since re-independance of RA:-
1-LTP was elected president since there was no other politically apt person to take the reins at that point of time( a linguist, Matenadaran director an intellectcual in short-With no savvy of regional politics-
His erroneous thinking-like Krikor Zohrab-that he could cooperate with great Turkey,going to Turgut Ozal´s funeral and sending Libaridian several times over to Turkey-while with good intentions-proved a wrong approach. Since Latter showed once again that their position as to tiny Armenia has not changed.He should have immediately changed tactics and joined up with Armenian other political forces(ARF et al) and condemned Turkey in its uncompromising stance to the world diplomacy.He did no such thing."Todo al revez" totally contrary,he banned the nationlists efforts and very uncouthly banished ARF leader Hrair Maroukhian out of his native Homeland,a terrible act. He should at the very least,have banished him to a far away village-town in Armenia,not OUT of RA.No Armenian should be treated so.The Homeland belongs to All Armenians.And he did not have that much knowledge. What he later did is well known to all.In short after his resignation over NK ,which himself had patronised ,once again proves that he was not, is not a politician thinking for his Homeland.Not even Kochinian, Demirjian would have done that!!! i.e. trying to make up with Aliev -baba.
2.ARF did right joining up with Serj´s Republican party -I said that above-plus Orinats Yergir and b arkavaj to shut LTP out.There was no other way to save Homeland from falling back into LTP´s incapable rein.Hence-I am impartial no Dashnak or Ramgavar- his being supported by his followers to come back a nonesense.
3.Kocharian for a while followed suit and tried yet another approach to great Turkey,which proved futile,a wrong follow up indeed.But then he straightened up and showed more eptitiude in siding with those who advocated a more independant policy.He did quite a bit too in way of trying to redress his predecessor´-s errors.He served his tenure "bastante bien" pretty well. Also helping Serje Sargsyan to take over was a well thought of act.There was no other´, as much capable on the scene.
To resume now:-Someone correctly up above mentioned, that other very important forces are involved in the Region,other than RA,Turkey, in extension Azerbaijan and Georgia.The West´s -one of the aforementioned forces indeed-tries to gain"further " foot-hold in the Caucasus did not ealize ,rather has not been successfull so far.They may try yet another approach,for the competition thereat goes on.It may well prove that <Armenia´s role in this respect may be reconsidered by -especially the big Oil producing companies and their governments, hopefully.Meanwhile,RA is by and by progressing as rgds development of economic relations with many further away countries.Iran ,indeed is at the forefront ,which is most important,what with new railway link and ,gas and oil suply projects being achieved, making RA less dependent on others....
What really matters for us Diaspora Armenians now, is to meditate re-structuring its centrifugally acting present establishments,whether political parties and /or other.It is incumbent on us to to re- develop into a more centralized system,if you will,such as I have time and again indicated through another instrument.Rather a mechanism, that is based on real PARICIPATION AND REPRESENTATION of our huge collectivities that is .This ,I believe can be achieved only through our so far neglected,previously called "silent majority".Now, a Dynamic Diaspora-yet , not harnessed to said mechanism-which I dare confirm again, is the adoption of a NEW STATUTE that encompasses our huge collectivities,majority -wise non-partisan but compatriots well advanced in their Professions.These forming into "Professional Colleagues Associations" and then begin to receive through these their delegates-elected by THEM TO THE NATIONAL AFFAIRS ARENA,I do not fail to say alongside existing political parteis and other.Please refer to my web site www.ARMENIDAD_worldwide.org
No way out,if we continue haphazardly ,in a fragmented fashion .The Diaspora´s ineptitude as rgds its -so far-incapability to have its say in the Homeland and cooperate with it ,is precisely due to lack of coordination and being an un-organized entity.Time to act is now.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian-ex Board member of First
Armenian Congress,Paris
I am surprised no one from the Armenian community wants to have their history examined by historians.
There is so much we can still learn from the past.
Here are some facts -
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
The Cost of Denial
By Dr. Gregory Stanton
President, International Association of Genocide Scholars
President, Genocide Watch
Congressman Pallone, Congressman Knollenberg, Archbishop Aykazian, Archbishop Choloyan, Ambassador Markarian, Senator Menendez, Speaker Pelosi, Majority Leader Hoyer, Members of Congress, and Honored Guests:
Today, we honor the memory of Congressman Tom Lantos, who left us this year. One of his final acts in Congress was to support House Resolution 106, commemorating the Armenian genocide, and to send it for a vote in the House. But this past year, as every year, it never reached a vote in the full House.
Again the United States surrendered to the ninety year campaign of denial by the government of Turkey. The State Department and the White House have continued the cowardly policies of every Secretary of State since Lansing, who have considered it more important to placate the Turkish government than to be truthful about history.
The tactics of genocide denial are predictable, and the Turkish government has used them all. Question and minimize the statistics. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers. Blame “out of control” forces for committing the killings. Claim that the massacres don’t fit the legal definition of genocide, even though over a million Armenians were killed!
Today, the Turkish government has three favorites:
Blame the victims. Claim that the killings were in self-defense against people who were disloyal to the Ottoman Empire during World War I. In fact, very few Armenians joined the Ottoman Empire’s enemies, and certainly none of the women and children could have. But they were murdered nevertheless.
Claim that Muslim Turks also suffered many deaths. The problem with this argument is that the deaths were in battles with European troops, not at the hands of the Armenians, who were deported like sheep into the desert.
Finally, claim that the deaths were inadvertent, due to lack of food and water, not due to intentional destruction. The falsehood of this claim is amply proven by the thousands of pages of eye-witness reports from Armenian survivors (three of whom are with us in this room), American consular officers, missionaries, and even by the archives of the Ottoman Empire’s allies, Germany and Austria-Hungary, as well as by the records of the Ottoman Courts-Martial of 1918-1920. This was intentional mass murder by starvation. It wasn’t an unfortunate by-product of a “deportation.”
So why can’t a resolution telling the truth about the Armenian genocide pass Congress?
Here we run into two more tactics of denial that include our own:
Claim that current peace and reconciliation are more important than blaming past perpetrators for genocide. The latest version of this tactic is the Turkish government’s proposal to set up an “historian’s commission” with half of the members appointed by the Turkish government and half by the government of the Republic of Armenia to “study” the facts of what happened in 1915 – 1923. The problem with this proposal is that the Armenian genocide has been thoroughly documented and studied by genocide scholars, many of whom are not Armenian, and the historical record is unambiguous. In 1997, The International Association of Genocide Scholars declared unanimously that the Turkish massacres of over one million Armenians constituted a crime of genocide. A “commission of historians” would only serve the interests of Turkish genocide deniers. There is no more “other side” to the truth about the Armenian genocide than there is about the Holocaust.
Most importantly for the US, don’t tell the truth because to do so would not be in current US political, economic, and military interests. The US has a huge airbase in Turkey that we need for our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Turks have threatened to close that base, cancel purchases of American military equipment, boycott American goods, and even pass their own resolution condemning nineteenth century US government massacres of Native Americans. (A number of US Congressmen and Senators have beaten them to it and already introduced such resolutions, and those resolutions should also be passed.)
The Cost of Denial
In my studies of genocide, I have discovered that the process of every genocide has predictable stages. They aren’t linear, because they usually operate simultaneously. But there is a logical order to them, because a “later” stage cannot occur without a logically “prior” stage. It is also useful to distinguish them, because they can help us see when genocide is coming and what governments can do to prevent it.
The first is Classification, when we classify the world into us versus them. The second is Symbolization, when we give names to those classifications like Jew and Aryan, Hutu and Tutsi, Turk and Armenian. Sometimes the symbols are physical, like the Nazi yellow star.
The third is Dehumanization, when perpetrators call their victims rats, or cockroaches, cancer, or disease; so eliminating them is actually seen as “cleansing” the society, rather than murder.
The fourth is Organization, when hate groups, armies, and militias organize.
The fifth is Polarization, when moderates are targeted who could stop the process, especially moderates from the perpetrators’ group.
The sixth stage is Preparation, when the perpetrators are trained and armed, victims are identified, transported and concentrated.
The seventh stage is Extermination, what we legally define as genocide, the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.
When I first outlined these stages in a memo I wrote in the State Department in 1996, I thought these seven stages are the entire process.
Then I realized there is an eighth stage in every genocide: Denial. It is actually a continuation of the genocide, because it is a continuing attempt to destroy the victim group psychologically and culturally, to deny its members even the memory of the murders of their relatives.
Denial has a profoundly negative impact on everyone concerned.
Denial harms the victims and their survivors.
That is what the Turkish government today is doing to Armenians around the world. Elie Wiesel has repeatedly called Turkey’s denial a double killing, as it strives to kill the memory of the event. We believe the US government should not be party to efforts to kill the memory of a historical fact as profound and important as the genocide of the Armenians, which Hitler used as an example in his plan for the Holocaust.
Around the world, victims of genocide ask first for recognition of the crime committed against them. It is as essential to healing as closing an open wound. Without such healing, scars harden into hatred that cripples the victim and cries out for revenge.
Denial harms the perpetrators and their successors.
After the Ottoman Courts-Martial of 1918-1920, there were no further trials. The killers literally got away with mass murder. With blood on their hands, they returned to their jobs. But out of that denial grew a Turkish state that denied the existence of all non-Turks within Turkey. Kurds became “mountain Turks,” Kurdish schools were closed, and people speaking Kurdish had their tongues cut out.
Studies by genocide scholars prove that the single best predictor of future genocide is denial of a past genocide coupled with impunity for its perpetrators. Genocide Deniers are three times more likely to commit genocide again than other governments. We should be on guard for Turkish attempts to suppress Kurds, which continue to this day, and recently resulted in an invasion of Iraq.
Turkish school children are taught that the Armenian genocide is a myth. Turkish writers who write the truth are prosecuted for “insulting Turkishness,” even if they have won the Nobel Prize. Publishers like Hrant Dink who dare publish the truth are murdered, and their murderers are celebrated as national heroes. These are the remnants of racist ultra-nationalism, of fascism, and do not belong in a member of NATO that hopes to join the European community.
The next step that Turkey must take to become a real democracy is to acknowledge its own past. Like an alcoholic, drunk on the liquor of ultra-nationalism, it must first overcome its denial before it can defeat its addiction.
Why should this be so hard? Germany has done it, and has become one of the strongest democracies on earth. The current Turkish government did not commit the Armenian genocide. Why should it not face the truth about the crimes the Ottoman Empire committed over ninety years ago?
Denial harms the bystanders
Countries that recognize the truth about the Armenian Genocide are considered enemies by Turkish successor regimes. The parliaments of many countries have affirmed the fact of the Armenian Genocide in unequivocal terms, and proposed congressional resolutions like H. Res. 106 are commemorative and non-binding. Yet the resolution faced opposition from those who fear it would undermine US relations with Turkey. It is worth noting that, notwithstanding France’s Armenian Genocide legislation, France and Turkey are engaged in more bilateral trade than ever before.
We would not expect the US government to be intimidated by an unreliable ally with a deeply disturbing human rights record, graphically documented in the State Department’s 2007 International Religious Freedom Report on Turkey. We would expect the United States to express its moral and intellectual views, not to compromise its own principles.
In fact, telling the truth would ultimately be good for US-Turkish relations, because they would no longer be based on diplomatic lies.
Denial harms those who have stood up for truth.
The Joint Congressional Resolution recognizing and commemorating the Armenian Genocide will honor America’s extraordinary Foreign Service Officers (among them Leslie A. Davis, Jesse B. Jackson, and Oscar Heizer) who often risked their lives rescuing Armenian citizens in 1915. They and others left behind some forty thousand pages of reports, now in the National Archives, that document that what happened to the Armenian people was government-planned, systematic extermination—what Raphael Lemkin (the man who coined the word genocide) used in creating the definition.
Denial harmed Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, who never got another diplomatic assignment after he returned to the U.S. from the Ottoman Empire. It continues to harm the careers of Foreign Service Officers like America’s Ambassador to Armenia, John Evans, who simply told the truth when he called the Armenian massacres by their proper name, genocide. He was ordered to retract his statement. He, too, never received another diplomatic assignment. And even the American Foreign Service Association (AFSA,) which honors diplomatic courage with three awards each year, in 2005 withdrew its Christian Herter award to Ambassador Evans under State Department pressure. No wonder that since then, AFSA has trouble getting any nominees for its awards, having displayed such cowardice itself.
Denial harms the rights of every human being.
By passing the resolution, the U.S. Congress would pay tribute to America’s first international human rights movement. The Foreign Service Officers and prominent individuals such as Theodore Roosevelt, Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, and Cleveland Dodge, who did so much to help the Armenians, exemplify America’s legacy of moral leadership.
Ambassador Morgenthau’s career with the State Department was over. But he inspired his son, Henry Morgenthau, Junior, who became FDR’s Secretary of the Treasury and was a tireless advocate for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust and helped found the War Refugees Board that saved thousands of lives. The spirit of the Morgenthau’s lives on.
Let us today commemorate those who died in the Armenian Genocide, but also Ambassador Henry Morgenthau and others who had the courage to tell the truth about it.
Let us remember Ambassador Morgenthau’s words when he met with Talaat Pasha, who asked him:
“Why are you so interested in the Armenians anyway? You are a Jew, these people are Christians.”
Morgenthau replied:
“You don’t seem to realize that I am not here as a Jew but as the American Ambassador….I do not appeal to you in the name of any race or religion, but merely as a human being.”1
1 Morgenthau, Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story, Taderon Press, 2000, p. 222.
Resolution
That this assembly of the Association of Genocide Scholars in its conference
held in Montreal, June 11-13, 1997, reaffirms that the mass murder of over a
million Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to
the statutes of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide. It further condemns the denial of the Armenian
Genocide by the Turkish government and its official and unofficial agents
and supporters.
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Resolution_1997_on_the_Armenian_Genocide.pdf
Mr. Avedis,
I now see why your comments weren't approved earlier on.
Great article, Mr. Dumanian. Thank you for taking the stand. I firmly believe that we have no future unless/until we acknowledge and correct the mistakes of the past. Virtually everyone makes them, but to have the credibility to lead in the future addressing those mistakes is critical.
Regarding the outcome of 2008 election, please refer to Chapter IV (Statistical Analysis) of Policy Forum Armenia's report of what happened then. http://www.pf-armenia.org/fileadmin/pfa_uploads/PFA_Election_Report--FINAL.pdf
David Grigorian, Ph.D. (against the protocols)
www.pf-armenia.org
BLOOD MONEY?
Indeed.Why others up above have justly commented on Mr. Perlmutter,neither has commented on the word"Blood Money"...
Strangely it is in the title of the post,while I hope there would be some comment -or even in the original post-something w/rgd to "Blood Money"....
My advocay, though it mya sound out of place or irrelevant hs always been ,whether on this line or other such,for our 500 strong BAR Association to prepare a claim,The Claim...for 1.5 million peoplesínnocent blood shed by the Ottoman Turkey...
A much better and easier way to start off, as it has precedents,viz. the Jews like claim aagainst Germany ,in heritor of Nazi Germany -when they did so and till today are collecting billions of dollars from Germany.Most importantly our own (small) but tremendously succesfull claim when Vartkes Yeghiayan and co. lodged claim against New York Life insurance company and very successfully won the claim ,albeit a very small amount as to the one in Question-that I advocate-from great Turkey,that of above "Blood Money" .
Instead we are after Land reparations issue .And that -a much more complicatd one-since it has to be jointly claimed by other christian, (Greeks, Assyrians) and yet yezidis etc., jointly, or at the very least, by us seperately but when one of these ,namely, THE GREEK ORTHODOX Patriarc,read Mteropoli of Istanbull has just commenced a claim for 400 billion dollars to the turkish authorities for reuined greek ,Pontian Monuments, churches ,schools ,land and houses confiscated by not only Ottoman Turkey but by present R.of Turkey.In Armenian we say:-
"ourdegh es Giragos"? meaning where are you ...
To surmise, unfortunately the Armenian mindset is such that it neglects more important issues and goes after those that are very hadrd repeat very very hard to realize.
Comes to mind,all our intellectuals ,politicians are these days trying hard to prove that the Genocide, The Armenian Genocide is REAL:..God´s sake why they don´t refer to something that is PROVED BY THEIR OWN "OTTOMAN military tribuanl" that right after WWI judged and condemned the masters of the genocide and their government conveniently shut its eyes ,whiule these escaped to Malta, Berlin,Rome and elsewhere..
Am incognizant of the fact that later our avengers took care of these criminals on their own.But core of my explanation is why nOT MENTION THIS PROVE BY TURKS fact!!!
Hama Haiagani SIRo,
gaytzag palandjian
Thank you for writing about this. It seems that this important event was missed by all other Armenian news sources. Kurdish rights in Turkey and the recognition of the Armenian Genocide in Turkey are integral parts of the democratization process that Turkey has started.
Hye Tom, as parents who lived through the AYF years with our children, you said it all so well, for all of us and as well to our AYF current graduates. The connections our children made through the AYF
as well as Camp have been lasting and honest friendships throughout the USA, and more. Manooshag
Palandjian, the church repair, as repeatedly stated by the community there, is not related to the recent events and is a result of a push by the local community. It is also an unsubstantiated premise that Turkey is "softening up." Turkey is merely changing its fascism to a more modern format. As I have written elsewhere, wealth can afford more refined modes of popoulation control and implementation of imperialist policy. The US' "civil rights" is also a "softening up" of a sort that has merely hardened elsewhere and has made for a more complete fascistic model where wars and waged undeclared by the legistlature, covert wars are the norm, exploitation of labor in undeveloped states at the expens3e of the local population is the standard economic model, where ever constructing oligarchy is the trend. That is an extremely naive outlook to say that one church repair is "a sign of softening."
Aghjayan is making a valid point: Don't use so-called "errors in judgement" as a means to discredit and obfuscate the entire core issue of a disastrous set of decision in foreign policy that effectively alienates everyone in Armenia and outside of Armenia. It is a fact that the local populations are more disenfranchised than ever, and this has been verified via multiple channels.
Although IMHO, Dumanian's reaction is a bit heated consdiering who he is addressing, as I haven't in my experience sees Aghjayan as someone who intentionally covers up his party's errors, Dumanian wishes to police the ARF's contradictory position in order to balance out Aghjayan's article and keep this party in line. All is fine. Both articles are valid and necessary. This is not in my view a typical 1950's "mete out of the opposition."
Your proposals for infrastructural invesments have always been on my mind, but I reluctantly agree with Karen Simonyan's last article on who is governning Armenia, which makes your proposals only likely in the event there is serious paradigm shift in the government and bureacracy toward a much more transparent and nationalist model. Currently, in all areas, we merely see a revival of a bolshevik echelon.
Thank you Guyansu for your courageous reporting.
This story, about Selahattin Demirtas' comments in the Turkish parliament, should have been considered a "gift" for the Armenian propaganda efforts. It can still be used as such. We need to do a better job to have this type of rare political story make the headlines in all major newspapers, particularly non-Armenian. This absolutely courageous announcement by Demirtas deserves a tenfold effort by the Armenians to report about it and let all politicians, especially those who advocate democracy, be aware of it. There is a lot of opportunity in improving our communications and propaganda work. We are letting a constant slogan of "occupied territories in Azerbaijan" occupy the headlines constantly so that they finally reach their purpose of misleading and brainwashing the international forum. We cannot let Turkey succeed in its age old technique of lying, cheating and misleading. We need to constantly announce that there is no democracy in Turkey and human rights, especially of press and expression, are gravely violated. In the day and age of the Internet, we cannot fail in letting the truth ring louder and stifle the misleading ways of the Turkish government. Where are the headlines that read... "Eastern Turkish lands were Armenian lands", "Karabagh is historically Armenian, given to Azerbaijan by Stalin"... We can and should do better.
Have Armenians ever thought about the possibility of working and cooperating with Kurds as both ethnic groups share the same cause against Turkey? The great Kurdish leader General Mulla Mustafa Al-Barzani who had lead the Kurdish resistance against Iraqi consecutive governments since his return from exile in Artsakh (Karabakh) 1946-1959, had said to an Armenian friend in Baghdad in 1959, and in Armenian :"There will be no Armenia without Kurdistan and no Kurdistan without Armenia." What did he mean...?
Katia,
I agree with you 100%. It is baffling to me that news such as this did not make the headlines all around the world.. However, all we hear is how Armenia is not willing to give the lands back to Azeris and how Turkey is doing everything to make the relations better between Armenia and them ect..
It frustrates me when I know that US is covering news that truly is against Armenians but yet never covers news that is pro Armenians.
Stories such as this if not among the Non-Armenians, but Armenians should be circulated over and over.. Not only this will allow us to circulate among our Non-Armenian friends and collegues but it will prove that Armenians do have knowledge what is going on in Turkey and with its members who is willing to stand up against them...
At least this goes to show that there may be some in Turkey that will not stand for lies and denial..
Good job
Ergun Kirlikoval is correct, when he writes: "Turkish-Americans are law-abiding, tax-paying, proud American citiziens who are exercising their legals and democratic rights by partcipating in the election process."
Unfortunately for Ergun & his friends, they are also Genocide Deniers. They are similar to law-abiding Jew haters, law-abiding Holocaust Deniers, and law-abiding White Trash, who hold KKK rallies around America.
Ergun should not confuse the fact that he & his friends are not in jail, with the vile nature of their existence, at least in his case...which is to spend every waking hour denying the Armenian Genocide.
Bravo Tom, Bravo. I could not have said it better. "Getseh AYF". We all owe a great deal to our youthful experiences in the youth organization that molded so many of us. We must continue to pass this torch on to the next generation.
I implore all AYF Alumni to get involved. It is up to us to make sure the flame does not go out. Don't wait to be asked or invited. It is your duty to give back . Our Junior & Senior chapters need our support, guidance and legacy memories. That is what makes this organization so unique.
Thank you Tom for reminding us!!
Presented are documents from non Ottoman /non Turkish Archives about the Armenian atrocities inflicted on the Turks and Muslims by the Armenians before, in and after the WWI. The Armenians do not want the world opinion whom they made believe that they were purely innocent victims, see their crimes. They fear the disclosure of that the real deniers are their own ancestors.
*) "... We sent armies, we burnt and destroyed places and we carried out massacres." (From H. Katchhaznouni, the first Prime Minister of Armenia, 1923)
*) "The Dashnaks and Hunchaks have terrorised their own countrymen, stirred up Muslim people with their thefts and insanities, and paralysed all efforts made to carry out reforms; all the events taken place in Anatolia are the responsibility of the crimes committed by the Armenian revolutionary committees"
(From The British Vice Consul Williams wrote from Van on 4 March 1896)
*) "I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did."
(From Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936)
*) "All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
(From
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun." (Alternately known as "History of the A.R.Federation" ("H. H. Dashnaktsutyan Patmutiwn," Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950)
*) "It is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many Muslim villages in the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are official charges of massacres by the Armenians."
(From Avetis Aharonian, From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne; Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, p. 54, cont'ed)
*)"While the Dashnaks [x-Russian Armenian Government] were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes."
(From U.S. Library of Congress - Bristol Papers - General Correspondence Container #34.
*)"I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground, in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. Muslims had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep..."
(From Leonard R Hartill, Men Are Like That The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis(1926)Memoirs of Ohanus Appressian, pge 218
*) " In the courtyard of the mosque the corpses lay heaped to a depth of two lance-lengths. There were bodies of men, women, children, old people, people of every age.
..." On the 27th February the Armenians crucified a Turkish woman-still alive -on a wall after tearing out her heart; she was hung head downwards."
""the Armenians slew more than 800 Turks in Erzindjan, and so avenged one of their miserable accomplices who had been killed by a Turk in justified self-defense. Furthermore, the Armenians massacred the unhappy Mohammedan population of Ilidja, in the neighborhood of Erzerum, without sparing the women and children."
"...In the night of the 26th-27th the Armenians eluded the vigilance of the Russian officers and perpetrated another massacre, but at once took to their heels at the first approach of the Turks. This massacre was no impromptu affair-it had been planned beforehand; all captured Turks were collected and put to death one by one. The Armenians reported with pride that the night's toll reached a total of 3,000"
(From Second Russian Garrison Artillery...Lieutenant-Colonel Griaznoff)
*) "Europe wanted blood from us, we gave; they wanted soldiers, we gave warriors and volunteers. So that they wanted us to bathe with freedom blood...... dangerous future is forward........ but we have hopes. Victorious Armenians."
(From İstanbul 01.01.1914 Aspares num 350 Aktoni Malumyan. Armenian Tashnak Terrorist.
*) "It is time that Americans ceased to be deceived by Armenian propaganda in behalf of policies which are nauseating..." (From John Dewey, Columbia University professor, (From "The Turkish Tragedy," The New Republic, Nov. 1 1928).
*) The village of Deurtyol - about 5000 Armenians- Armenians of Deurtyol are now well armed with modern rifles, every male adult having one in his possession. (Deurtyol is a town very close to Alexandretta) (From: 1913, October 21 FO, 371/1773. No. 52128 In Sir P. Mallet’s Despatch No 925 of Kov. 12 Consul Fontana to His Majesty’s Charge de Affairs Aleppo)
*) …..Armenians in Russia and Turkey were extremely anxious that war would break out between Russia and Turkey, as in that event the Armenians both in Russia and Turkey would endeavor to avenge themselves on the Turks. He also stated that 60,000 Armenians had already volunteered to fight the Turks in the event of war breaking out. (From: 1914, Nov 6 FO, 371/2146, No. 68443 7 November 1914 (Sent November 6th,1914) Signed by Francis Blyth Kinby)
*) ….Boghos Nubar Pasha has represented to me that the Armenian population of Cilicia would be ready to enroll themselves as volunteers in support of a possible disembarkation at Alexandretta, Mersina, or Adana on the part of the allied forces. (1914, Nov 12 FO, 371/2146, No. 70404 Cairo, November 12, 1914. No. 257 (Telegraphic) Mr. Chcetham to Sir Edward Grey.(Received November 12)
*) In reply to your letter, the arming of these Armenians was part of a scheme for the occupation of Alexandretta, which is not in contemplation at the present moment. (From: 1915, March 1 FO, 371/2484, No. 25073 1st March, 1915 Signed by D.D. Culite/ The Under Secretary of State For Foreign Affairs Foreign Office S. W., London)
*) Sir, In conformity with your Excellency's telegraphic instructions. .... The population of Ourfa before the 28th December, 1895, was close to 65,000, of whom about 20,000 were Armenians, 3000-4000 (other Christians and Jews), and the remaining -40,000 are Turkish, Kurdish and Arab Muslumans... .(From: .............1896, March 16 Ourfa FO, 424/187, No.66, p.66-82 Inclosure 2 in No. 53 Vice -consul Fitzmaurice to Sir P. Currie)
*) Sir, I have the honour to submit some general observations on Armenians and other races of this consular district....Erzeroum town....First, as to Erzeroum town. This is an important, fairly prosperous, distributing trade center with a population of perhaps 50,000, perhaps a third of whom are Armenians………..
The Turkish villagers, who form the majority of the population of the Erzurum Vilayet.......the population of the Vilayet may be very roughly estimated at 600,000, of whom perhaps 150,000 to 200,000 are Armenians, 100-150,000 Kurds, and the rest Turks..
................The Armenian inhabitants of what is called the great Armenian tableland in Turkey (the vilayets of Van, Bitlis, and Erzeroum, and parts of the vilayets of Kharput and Diarbekir) are perhaps half a million, and are in the region as a whole and in almost every subdistrict in the minority. The Armenians of the adjacent Russian territory of Trans-Caucasia are about 2,000,000, and in that territory are again in the minority. ............(From: 1912, November FO, 424/233, No 126, p.51-53 Inclosure in No.354 Consul Monahan to Sir G. Lowther (No.84) Erzeroum, telegraph)
Turks were massacred everywhere in the 19th century…. 1913, October 31 FO,195/2450, p83-87 Inclosure in Mr. Consul Monahan’s No 69 A summary translation from an Armenian newspaper Haratch: …The Turkish Government after being defeated by the four Balkan Powers, and lost seven million of population…"
The Turks who had been slaughtered like animals were buried in large holes in the Eastern Anatolia (Lieutenant Colonel Twerdo-Khlebof. I wittnessed and I Lived Through Erzurum, 1917-1918. www.tsk.mil.tr/ermeni_sorunu/arsiv_belgeleriyle_ermeni_faaliyetleri/pdf/yarbay_tverdohlebov.pdf
Turks and Armenian lived in peaceful co-existence under Turkish rule for almost a millennium. If the Armenians did not take up arms against their own government, attack their neighbors, and join the invading enemy armies, during a war of survival, nothing less, then that harmonious co-habitation would still continue at a “larger” scale today. Armenian claims of genocide cannot be substantiated by historical evidence which is why Armenians resort to falsifications, insults, defamations, political pressure, intimidation, and even terrorism. Armenian claims of ownership to lands where they once lived fly in the face of self-determination as there Armenians have always been a minority where they lived. Giving credence to a minority, at the expense of rights, thought, feelings, traditions, and beliefs of a majority, would be to openly support apartheid, ethnic intolerance, and religious discrimination.
The “kiss of life” offered by Turkey in the last protocol—totally undeserved by Armenia in my opinion-- may well be the very last chance for Armenia to exist as a sovereign state. If Armenia insists on business as usual on the bogus genocide issue, ignores the above, and refuses to abandon military occupation of Azerbaijan, Armenia may well be relegated to a distant, obscure province of Russia simply by default. Turkey finds it much easier to deal with Russia as both Turkey and Russia enjoy vast reservoirs of knowledge, deep-rooted traditions of compromise, and centuries of experience in building nations, states, and empires.
I am noting with a heavy heart, though, that the Turkish-Armenian conflict is unfortunately turning into a matter of perception and prejudice, rather than fact and fairness, thanks in no part to the racist Armenian diaspora propaganda vilifying all things Turkish . Even the most educated writers and journalists, honest truth-seekers, and others, unable to appreciate the above nuances, seem to fall prey to the passion of partisan narratives
Hye, Obviously, Turkey is currently in the mode of using PLOYS... over and over, whatever suits the moment, rebuilding Armenian churches (excluding the cross) and more... these are just occasional fluffs by the Turks - as they have been wont to do over the years now - to 'fool' many into thinking Turkey finally, - after nearly 100 years - has come around to the being as one with the democratic civilized societies in the world. Yet today, Turkey is a Turkey is a Turkey - no change.
They are as in the child's fairy tale: THE EMPORER'S CLOTHES... (Emporer paraded himself as if he
was now wearing new clothes (which didn't exist) and instead, was parading in his underwear. He
had fooled none others - only himself. Even a child called out to say: THE EMPORER ISN'T WEARING
CLOTHES... And so it is with Turkey- after nearly 100 years - it acts and shows itself to be 'advanced' for a moment, spasmodically, for show, but truths are that they have yet to know and see the truths about themselves - not only to the world, but to prove truths to themselves.
Which they are unable... in the mode of telling lies to their own citizens, in their own history books.
Manooshag
Tom Samuelian is a national treasure.
Hye, to me Dumanian comes across as anti-Tashnag... were there ANY others who were stepping forth and endeavoring to participate in the efforts of the fledgling Armenian nation - and if in their efforts erred, Tashnags took a wrong step, does this make the Dashnagtsitium inept and open to such
criticizms? Why not take on the AAA and their convoluted position today with the Protocols, et al?
Why not take on the other Armenian parties who never get the attention - as do the Tashnags - because, you shall take notice, the Tashnags are and have been patriots, individuals who have been IN THE ARENA. That means in the best, and yes, the worst of times who else has been trying their all for their nation - under the even the most impossible circumstances - a Sardarabad comes to mind. Sardarabad which has given Armenians the piece of the land which Armenians call Haiastan today.
While Armenians suffered under communism Tashnags were seeking the day that Armenians would become a free nation again, not content as other were other parties for our people to suffer under communism... For all those years of communism our yerakoon stood in my church... waiting.
As I have said before, critics are a dime a dozen; whiners, faulting all others.... a dime a dozen.
Manooshag
Ugh, I don’t even know where to start. I ignored your comment the first time you made this argument commenting on another article, but I guess I'll respond to it here.
This is the "default" argument that almost every single (and here I make no exaggeration) Dashnak sympathizer makes when confronted with criticism -- whether the criticism be substantive (like mine) or propaganda. The ARF, Mr. Manooshag, has had many accomplishments -- accomplishments that have, yes, contributed immensely to the preservation of the Armenian people. It has also made equally catastrophic decisions that have worked severely against the prosperity of the Armenian people. And while it has been on the right side of important issues many times, it has also been on the wrong side of equally important issues. I have seldom criticized the ARF’s policies from the “Sardarapad” era -- as you can see, all of my arguments against the ARF are made against the contemporary version of the party -- and even when I have, I have made them from a historical standpoint...much in the same way an academic would. If you’re going to take credit for the successes, Mr. Manooshag, you should also take credit for the failures (i.e. victory at Sardarapat vs. defeat at Kars and Van). Why is the ARF responsible for the successes but not the failures, despite having complete control of the government of the time? If the failures were inevitable (i.e. faced with unsurmountable odds), then so must be the successes (i.e. we would have won Sardarapad anyway). Why do you feel the need to reach deep into history and selectively grab portions of it to propel your current ideas forward? Most of us, including myself, glance over this period of our people’s history with the general understanding that the ARF did the best it could, and most of its failures are understandable considering the unsurmountable odds they faced.
But the Dashnaks have completely rewritten the past to paint themselves as the party that has continuously been on the right side of Armenian history...despite the fact (and here is where my real criticism starts) that THE ARF WAS ORIGINALLY AGAINST THE LIBERATION OF ARTSAKH AND ARMENIAN INDEPENDENCE IN 1988. Maybe you forget that the Hnacks, Ramgavars, and Dashnaks all united in an October 1988 press release -- essentially telling the people to calm down, go home, and not do anything to upset the “superior Soviet bodies.” Would you like a copy of the press release that called for your “valiant brethren in Armenia and Karabagh to forgo such extreme acts as work stoppages, student strikes, and some radical calls and expressions that unsettle public life in Armenia.” The ARF, ADLO, and the Hnchaks were worried about “the good standing of our nation in its relations with the higher Soviet bodies and other Soviet republics.” This is the last thing the 200,000 people on the streets of Yerevan and Stepanakert needed to hear from a “nationalist” party. This is why the ARF received 1% of the vote in 1991 (at the height of “nationalist fervor,” I might add). This is why all the members of the Kharabagh Committee (most importantly LTP) despised the Dashnaks. And this is why the people of Armenia and the founding fathers of the Armenian republic (Vazgen Manukyan, LTP, Vazgen Sarkisian, etc.) all considered and still consider the ARF to be a whitewashed party. Even Vazgen Manukyan, the real victor of the 1996 elections that LTP rigged, had the same position on the ARF as LTP. This is why, despite suffering from a clearly undemocratic tactic by LTP, nobody really cared about the ARF in 1994.
But somehow, you have been able to convince yourself that you always, somehow, wanted independence, and that you were the party that, somehow, wanted to liberate Artsakh when other forces were floundering or were cowards under the flag of “pragmatism.”
How do you know I have never criticized the Armenian Assembly? How do you know I haven’t told Bryan Ardouny off? Why are you assuming I’m out to criticize you for the sake of criticism? Have I said anything absolutely false? May I remind you, that the ARF, the Armenian Assembly, AGBU, and every other major organization in the Diaspora ONCE AGAIN failed to join the people of Armenia last March. AND ONCE AGAIN, after failing to stand with the people, have found themselves (somehow more enlightened) to be at odds with the ruling regime in Armenia (just like what happened with the communists). AND ONCE AGAIN, the people of Armenia will continue to consider you the party of the confused and hopeless -- not to be taken seriously.
Mr. Manooshag, I don’t want to talk about all of this nonsense. No, I’m not saying just because you’ve made catastrophic mistakes, you shouldn’t be allowed to speak now (although there are somethings to be said about that too). I want to talk about what’s going on today -- and that is precisely what I have done...in every article and every comment. People like you, who are probably too ignorant of the situation to contribute positively to the discussion, shouldn’t drag the discussion into what this comment turned out to be: a rant about the history of Armenian partisanship.
Wish you well,
Henrik Dumanian
Without a doubt, there are those that criticize the ARF based solely on personal prejudice - meaning they would be critical regardless of the actions of the ARF. I did not get that sense from Henrik at all. It is an interesting phenomena that those who see in the ARF the best hope for achieving their personal objectives are both the most critical and also the most adamant defenders of the ARF. In the former, you find criticism in an effort to raise the performance of the ARF and in the latter you find those who fear any criticism of the ARF weakens its ability to achieve those objectives. Personally, the people I respect the most for their ideals, commitment and sacrifice are those I have found in the ranks of the ARF and in that there is hope. There is no reason to fear criticism - the surest sign of irrelevance is being ignored.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about Ergun, the thought of responding to a Turk makes me ill, but I had to.
"I know some of the instances "tunahan" mentions. Most describe events occurring and situations arising AFTER government led murder, deportations, and theft of/from Armenians had begun.
In particular, based on my ex's family history, the Doertyol (properly Chork Marzban) situation is very telling. The citation is from 1913. That's four years after the 1909 massacres of Cilicia, during which Chork Marzban was surrounded by Turkish forces and its water supply cut off. My ex's greatgrandfather, Misak Der Boghossian, and another were able to sneak past Turkish fire to restore the flow of the stream, and he suffered a gunshot injury to his leg while returning from his mission.
Under such circumstances, when you know your own government is out to kill you, wouldn't you arm yourself?
I suspect most of the incidents on tunahan's list play similarly fast and loose with cause and effect, chronology, and even relevance to the question at hand. Besides, what justification can their possibly be for Genocide?"
The AYF afforded us the opportunity to experience and develop skills that have been incredibly
valauble throughout our adult life. As teens and early twenty-somethings,we were organizing dances,
educational forums,seminars and demonstrations. We honed our writing skills in lobbying our politicians and our verbal skills in lectures and educationals. We were given responsibilities that matured our core talents. Today in the business world, working in a "team " environment with"project
or program management" processes are considered essential building blocks and, in fact are taught at the undergraduate level. The AYF was teaching us these tools as teens ; while connecting us to our heritage. To understand the intensity of those bonds, simply attend an AYF Olympics and meet somone you haven't seen in a few years. The AYF has done an excellent job in developing leaders for the Armenian community. Diocese, Prelacy, Political, Cultural or Athletics... you will find people who skills and passion for things Armenian were nutured in the AYF. Thanks, Tom for reminding us.
How could I possibly forget that (unger) Tom of 19? He was indeed mycounselor at Camp Haiastan! Inquisitive, intelligent and excited about being a part of the Armenian scene. I've had the pleasure of your friendship since and so have my children, nieces and nephews.
Have you ever looked around to see who the leaders in your Armenian Community are? They are made up predominantly of former AYFers. I came through the NY Hyortiks, 45 of the most intelligent, rambuctious, and fiery teens you've ever met in your life. They all turned out to be outstanding citizens with very responsible positions as adults. Our meetings took forever because we challenged everything. Heck, if it weren't for those meetings I'd never be expert in Robert's Rules of Order --- a very handy thing to know in my post AYF days! We were the only organization where you had to study your history, demonstrate your loyalty and discipline, and prove yourself worthy of becoming a member. Trips to affairs out of town and meeting super kids and having an opportunity to return the favor made for lifelong friendships. My dearest friends to this day are those I met through AYF or at Camp. Now, we still go to Olympics, not to compete but to enjoy the organization that we loved so dearly by watching the next two and three generations after us enjoy what we did so vigorously a few decades ago. Our eyes smile when we see familiar faces from years past enjoying AYF but this time with their grandchildren, and who could possibly not get excited when they chance upon the ever present Tom Vartabedian replete with camera and beat up little notebook. Lest he forget even the slightest interesting tid-bit to publish.
Whoever Avetis is, he's a very far-sighted and thoughtful individual, and I mean this as sincerely as it comes. Avetis, you are absolutely correct, but I don't necessarily wish for the individuals above to be isolated and chastised. The machinations that govern the political apparatus of Armenians in the diaspora is archaic and short-sighted at best and subservient to foreign interests at worst. That is all true, and this is something that everyone with independent thought has managed to ascertain every time they have made attempts to join community works, political action groups, as independent individuals with genuine convictions. They have been mostly rejected by an exclusionist and totalitarian party apparatus and hierarchy with all its original barely post-Ottoman trimmings. It is fascinating to witness the justification of destructive behavior under the party banner, but that is the status quo that has ruled the diaspora for generations since before the genocide.
Obviously the most important factor to first of all consider is the external influences that cause for the perpetuation of the "rule by mediocrity." Recently I was discussing the Movses Der-Kalusdian dilemna (our own Strom Thrumond, except less loyal to our cause than Thurmond to his constituency's needs) and the utter historical fraud behind his ascension to "glory," and one can only think of one foreign influence: France and its controllers and the usage of a pitifully misidrected party apparatus to maintain a politically destructive direction for Armenians. We are talking about eyewitness accounts on what occurred here during the loss of the Sanjak to Turkey and subsequent depopulation of an age old Armenian populated region. We are talking about protecting an individual by granting him immunity status by elongating his PM tenure in order to avoid court martial in Syria for treatnous acts (i.e. aiding in the anti-nationalist drive to maintain French colonial status.) Many such men who couldn't care less about an Armenian future were as a result given top positions by way of foreign, direct foreign influence. This is but one example, and such examples transcend party lines, denominational divisions, social stratum (until the end result of collecting enough favors and bribes, of course) and even gender.
Invested is much capital against any Armenian solidarity, whether due to direct intent or indirect "interests", and this is something that Armenians fail to realize or at least are consistently discouraged form realizing by all involved ruling parties. If there is anything the ruling strata agree on, is that the Armenians must be made unaware of just what sort of operations go against Armenians at gargantuan levels in all ideological, cultural, political and communications levels.
This assertion is always the first to be attacked precisely because all the mediocrities in power have sold their soul in one way or another to some foreign entity. This is, no matter how one slices it, the political situation of Armenians. We have in fact never ceased to be a millet, and the sooner we realize this, the better we can regain better control of our future.
No wonder you ask "why were we not told before. Why was there no cooperation to mitigate this situation?" Why are we so divided?
All these questions can be answered by one simple sentence: When you witness as an independent Armenian in dismay over the hysterically tragic historical political un-thought in the Armenian diaspora (and republic, apparently), you notice that Armenians have been taught to judge one another based on which foreign loyalty (ideology, state, power block, etc) they hold steadfast to. Think about it for a moment. What were the dividing lines in the diaspora at any given time? What were the most exploited situations and conditions? "Pro-Rusian, pro-American, Pro-East, Pro-West" and so on, all defining elements on what constituted "a good Armenian party and party man" for generations. Some habits are hard to break, but they can be broken. Perhaps a good political nicotine patch treatment is in order. I hope we don't lose another arm or leg due to political gas gangrene.
Manoushag, I agree on Turkey. Turkey is merely changing its fascistic model to a more contemporary one, one that requires a bigger budget and more expertise in its propagation and maintenance. Obviously Turkey is the same hostile and active supporter of any anti-Armenian activity. As to "renovations and rehabilitation of structures", we should take a cue from the "renoveation of Ani" and the perverted manner with which such "renovations" took place, in addition to Akhtamar and so on. www.raa.am is a great place to start. Samvel Karapetyan is our best sentinel to my knowledge on this specific topic, and I would be truly interested to hear his opinion on this latest "renovation project" as well.
Looking past Avakian's racist anti-Tyrkish remarks for a minute, we can see the problemof Armenian historiology: Armenian put the cart before the horse. Here is one little proof, right out of Avakian's scribble:
"...Under such circumstances, when you know your own government is out to kill you, wouldn't you arm yourself?.."
The truth is, Armenians armed themselves to stage uprisings and put those arms to "good use" by killing many Turks. Murderers, whether Avakian's granparents or not, faced then what they would face in this country if they took up arms against the US government. No more, no less. The Adana incidents were fermented, started, and waged by Armenian fanatics (one of them an Armenian priest). Turks and other Muslims retaliated, as Armenians planned. Armenians hoped this would triger an intervention and invasion by the European powers who then would slice up Cilicia and turn it over to "their beloved Armenians". ( Dream on! )
Salahi Sonyel’s book “The Great War and the Tragedy of Anatolia”, TTK, Ankara, 2001, has an entire chapter on Adana; “Chapter 3: The Counter-Revolution” whose four sub-chapters are:
“The Events of 13 April 1909 (31 Mart Val’asi), pages 48-52
“The Adana Incidents”, pages 52-60
"Who was responsible for the Adana Incidents”, pages 61-64
“The Commission of Inquiry into the Adana Incidents”, pages 65-70.
All of these findings squarely refute Avakian's claims. Here is one excerpt from page 66 where one of the most experienced American missionaries in Anatolia, Rev. Dr. Christie, gives an account to of the very origin of the Adana incident to the American diplomatic representative who, in turn, furnishes it to British ambassador in Istanbul (Lowther):
"... that the young Armenians of Adana were nearly all revolutionaries, that arms and ammunition were on sale for months, and that both sides had been laying in store of them. He also attributed a large share in the (Adana) events to the 'evil counsels' of the Armenian bishop, whom (Dr. Christie) described as 'a very bad man'..."
These comments of Dr. Christie refute Avakian's claims and show that the idea of a revolutionary plot did in fact exist among many Armenians headed by their 'evil' bishop. The Armenians were well armed and supplied, motivated, even arrogant, and quite aggressive; attributes in stark contradiction with the Sarafian misrepresentation of innocent, unarmed Armenians.
There is much more in this book and elsewhere to clearly demonstrate to truth-seekers that one-sided accounts of historic controversies, such as that by Avakian of Adana incidents, do not help promote scholarship, truth, peace, or closure.
We shall continue to expose the truth in spite of Armenian fanaticism, intimidation, harassment, and terrorism. Dr. Gwynne Dyer, a London-based independent journalist, may have put it best in1976 after all:
“… The deafening drumbeat of the propaganda, and the sheer lack of sophistication in argument which comes from preaching decade after decade to a convinced and emotionally committed audience, are the major handicaps of Armenian historiography of the Diaspora today…”
Mr. hagopn,
It's unfortunate you agree with someone who called the protesters last year "savage African tribesmen." It's clear we can't have a civil discussion about these events if people are going to (and have been) pretending the demonstrators did not have a legitimate complaint, and were on drugs, suffering from psychological issues, had become delusional by forgetting Levon's past, etc.
His other catastrophic mistakes aside, the fact that Levon was instrumental in bringing Armenia into the Artsakh war has been a long proven fact, at this point. His Kharabagh committee and popularity was based around that goal. There are even dozens of letters from Robert Kocharian to LTP thanking him for his support in the liberation of the Artsakhian people, even after Levon had resigned.
Maybe an earthquake that crippled 25% of our industry, an inactive nuclear powerplant, independence, an economic blockade of 80% of our border, a new currency, a war against a country that had a standing army three times the size of our army -- maybe those also contributed to the poor situation in Armenia (a situation that continues for the majority of the population outside of Yerevan and its surroundings). That is exactly why we had those "dark years" from 1992-1994. All our resources were aimed at the war front.
Armenia's decision to get involved in Artsakh meant, if it lost (which was more of a possibility back then than winning) the Azeri army would march into Yerevan. What seems like an inevitable decision now required a lot of will and determination to make back then. And Levon was crucial to that decision. This does not lessen any of his current opponents, or excuse him for his mistakes, but it is the truth and our proud history during the Artsakh war should not be distorted to meet whatever political agenda someone may have.
For people like me who lived through those "dark years," -- they are not days that I cynically dread or blame on any one individual -- I remember those as days where we collectively and proudly suffered for our brethren in Artsakh. Neither me nor my family have regrets our horrid situation, and we are willing to do it again if need be.
Mr. Aghjayan,
Thank you for your sobering remarks. This is precisely why I replied to you, specifically. While we disagree on many things, you are clearly someone we can have thoughtful discussions with.
Hakop jan,
I agree with the essence of your statement: but allow me to add. As a tiny, resource-less, impoverished and landlocked nation surrounded by dubious friends and historic enemies, in perhaps the worst geopolitical neighborhood in the world - it's inevitable that Armenia will be dependent on foreign powers for the foreseeable future. As you already know, my only hope for Armenia's survival lies not in the big talking/small performing diaspora, but in Moscow. Anyone with even an ounce of objective reason and rational thought will realize this obvious reality of our fledgling nation. Without an effective Russian presence in the Caucasus (and in Armenia) not even a million Armenian azatamartiks would be able to stop the Caucasus from turning into a Turkic-Islamic cesspool. As you well know, evicting Russians from the Caucasus with the help of Turkic-Islamic forces has actually been a project for Western-Israeli-Turkish intelligence agencies for the past twenty years. Just think of what would of happened to our republic in the Caucasus had this project succeeded...
We as a nation must fully exploit our relationship with Moscow, as Jews exploit their relationship with various power centers of the West, for the long-term benefit of Armenia. Assessing the geopolitical environment in which we live in Armenia will be dependent on Russia for survival for the foreseeable future. At the very least let's rejoice in the notion that we serve the interests of a major regional superpower, one that is becoming gradually more powerful. This is one of the reasons why I support the so-called "protocols" because it is a great opportunity for us to finally become a major regional player. Let's use this historic opportunity to strengthen Armenia so that it can one day be truly independent.
Once one begins looking at our national plight in these geopolitical terms, the arguments posed by the likes of Aghyayan and Dumanian here become parochial, to say the least.
On a side note: Although the ARF has had some communications with the KGB/FSB, it is nonetheless deeply penetrated by the CIA.
Ramazan: Your comment seems to ignore the fact that Armenian history has been examined by historians, be it Armenian or non-Armenian, over the past hundred years. Do you think that because a historian is Armenian, then s/he is not a historian? Note: I am not saying that this examination is final and definitive, but there are some facts that need no further examination.
The above arguments have the typically detached and unsympathetic view that bureaucrats and academics like to pride themselves with.
Whether or not these protocols are part of or aid Russia's geopolitical interests (and, as you argue, by extension, Armenia's) are entirely different questions as to the ones I have posed and commented on. It is clear Russia is looking for a willing partner in Armenia to carry out her aspirations. Whether or not this "willing partner" was democratically elected, is going to share any economic or political benefits us becoming a "regional power" may bring with the rest of the population, or if he's going to be a violent and criminal menace, are entirely different questions.
The ludicrous idea that an unelected president can go to Switzerland, lock himself in a room with Turks, Americans, and Russians, with no TV cameras or photographers, agree to any sort of "historic" agreement with a nation that only 100 years committed genocide (and still denies it), and then come back and try to impose it on the Armenian people by putting on a fake show disguised as "discourse" trumps any half baked or fantastic "geopolitical" argument you can provide about how this is a good thing. And, even if it did trump it, the internal situation that we have been discussing is a problem that runs parallel to our external one -- it is not an alternate one...
The fact that there is so much confusion as to who is really behind the Protocols, the fact that Armenia and Turkey are saying two completely different things, the fact that so much of it is expected to be understood by taking a "course on geopolitics," the fact that the Armenian and English versions (the English having legal preference) are quite different in wording, and the fact that Sarkisian does not have the right to be president, and thus not a right to make such a decision, is not how a "historic agreement" that's suppose to bring "peace and prosperity" to the region should be signed, agreed to, or swallowed.
I propose we set up a bipartisan forum to discuss the protocols. I wouldn't mind joining you in a debate Mr. Avetis.
Mr. McCain is bluffing. If You do not believe me, ask the Vietnamese.
Baron Sassounian may you live another 100 years! VARZGET GADAR.
The enemy may be able to get us riled up, but they can't ever touch the passionate Armenian heart.
Let's go people. Think big. Act smart. Rise up. There's no time like the present.
Typical pandering politician...always looking for votes...
Honestly now, a different tone so suddenly Mr. 'I'm still debating the issue' McCain????
Should we be expecting his former running mate to release a statement about being able to see Armenia from Alaska soon...
Give me a break! You politicians are all untrustworthy opportunists.
You think our Genocide is up for barter? From Obama to McCain, their all the same.
I DON'T HAVE ANY REASON TO TRUST EITHER OF THEM AND I WILL NOT.
I want to see a signed legal document saying that he or anyone else recognizes the Armenian Genocide and is willing to exert pressure on Turkey for rightful reparations and land restitution before he begs for my vote.
Let him also start talking about his recent revelation about the Armenian Genocide to senior and junior Bush and to all the rest of his party members before he starts fishing for votes.
This goes for all democrats and republican candidates.
It is appropriate to examine Turkey's internal and international policies constructively. 1. Armenian Genocide, a well established fact throughout the world except where racist nationalist ideologies dominate, especially Republics of Turkey and Azerbaijan and a number of their apologists. Denying the Armenian Genocide is as insensate as denying that WWI did take place or insisting that the earth is flat! The massive denialist and distortive efforts of Turkey involving multi-million expenditure annually often with borrowed money from Europe and US has failed utterly. Additionally Turkey's attitude has dented the credibility of the Americans and its other pathetic apologists. 2. Western Armenia; The Great Tragedy: Dual Crimes of Genocide and Occupation against Armenia. The primary reason why the Genocide was committed was due to Pan-Turanic expansionist policies, an ideology very similar to the racist-nationalist Nazi ideology of later years and one that continues in Turkey (and Azerbaijan) today, especially in the form of Deep State terrorism. Genocide was specifically committed for the occupation of Western Armenia. Turkism's attempt to destroy Eastern Armenia however failed because of Russian intervention, consequently Russians are disliked. The Armenian Diaspora remains possibly the most advanced Diaspora in the world. Its friends are practically countless; its strength and resources grow constantly. It remains an integral part of united Armenia and its outlook remains deeply democratic and patriotic as far as its country of origin is concerned. 3. Opening of the borders (between Eastern and Western Armenia). It is high time thousands of years of realities were recognised. If Turkey behaves, which is most unlikely, the Genocidal and occupation roles it has played in the past can be corrected and the situation can be brought into the European Cultural Frontiers. However in order to step into such a reality effectively it will be necessary for the European Union, Russia and the US to act jointly. 4. Azerbaijan; the current surreptitious Turanian pan-Turk policy emanating from Ankara and Baku is one nation two states, a childishly unrealistic concoction as the two nations have thoroughly different backgrounds. Azerbaijan's Aliev dynasty remains amazingly autocratic and anachronistic. As the situation stands there is no chance of respite. It's extremist ideology based on Turkism remains a danger to its neighbours. Its infantile tantrums on a number of issues has placed its oil and gas installations, on land as well as on the Caspian, at significant risk. 5.Turkey's Internal Affairs; Instead of proposing disingenuous joint historical commissions with Armenia to examine 100% proved facts regarding the Armenian Genocide it is high time it abolished its state sponsored manufacture of kindergarten official history and permitted all its population freedom of expression and thought, especially by abolishing the existing draconian repressive laws thus prompting its intellectuals/academics/students... and journalists to debate its entire history freely and without fear of getting persecuted, prosecuted or murdered, such as Hrant Dink, Orhan Pamuk, Ragip Zarakolou ... and lesser known thousands more. Judicial murder must end. 6. Turkey's State Terrorism; this dangerous aspect has two tentacles: 1. Official; 2. Deep State. Official terrorism is best demonstrated by the destruction of thousands of Kurdish villages in the East of the country and in the process murder of tens of thousands. This Nato member has destroyed far greater number swathes of Kurdish lands than Sadam Hussein's Iraq. This is just one example. In this type of terrorism the elected government is part of the combination. Deep State terrorism; a very well publicised development especially within the country it is predominantly organised by the military, gendarmerie, the secret services and the sections of the police force; within these organisations the ideology of Turkism dominates. The elected government invariably have no control open the Deep State terrorism and it remains the true power behind the parliamentary façade. When official terrorism is in action Deep State terrorism automatically compliments in the destructions. The only way to eliminate State Terrorism in Anatolia is for the US, Russia and the EU to act jointly if necessary militarily to restructure the Turkism based regime in Ankara otherwise all Turkey's neighbours will suffer significantly greater losses, and eventually this danger which may ABS development weapons in the country that can be aggressively used against the EU and others. It has to be remembered that during the early part of the 19th century the Jenissarys, the most powerful military organisation in the country had to be completely wiped out because they were persistently interfering adversely with the state affairs. 6.Turkey's external aspects; perpetual jingoistic outlook; the hysterical anti Armenian outlook well known throughout the world consequently no need to elaborate further. Just to note that large quantities of arms have been shipped to Azerbaijan in order to facilitate "the younger brother's" proxy war against Armenia, thus attempting to permanently usurp Armenian territories which is Nagorno Karabagh/Artsakh, and Nakhichevan. It is now to the thorough interest of the EU, Russia and the US to reconstruct Armenia upon its plateau so that the great danger emanating from Turkism is eliminated. Georgia has lost significant territories to Turkey and shortly after WWII claimed them. Georgia has also lost significant terrorism to Azerbaijan; Iraqi Kurdistan: constant bombardment and incursions by Turkish forces during the last 20 years; Syria: Occupation of Alexandretta shortly before the WWII; Cyprus still under Turkish occupation. The EU remains pathetically ineffective in defending its territory; Greece: Constant harassment of its territorial waters and a number of its islands - another example of EU supine mentality. Turkey has ZERO CHANCE of joining the EU in the foreseeable future as European democratic and liberal values remain deeply alien to its mentality. Even when progressive legislation is passed under EU pressure, they are often not implemented.
First of all, interesting read Mr. Yeghparyan. You have a knack for writing and it seems to be picking up readers from all walks of life...
Ergun, you are a sad specimen of the Turkish nation and I am ashamed of your writings. As a Turkish citizen I too had those same vile views like you when I first arrived in America. But, I had the courage and wisdom to see through our country's nationalistic history books. Your words remind me of what Ogun Samast must have been brainwashed with all his life before he murdered Hrant Dink. I can only hope that same zealous fundamentalism that you recite here never reaches the ears of other Turkish youth. Please read a book by Taner Ackcam, a fellow compatriot and true Turkish scholar that will broaden your understanding and help you come to terms with Armenians and the Armenian genocide.
Cok ayip. (shame on you)
Aghjayan, Dumanian,
I'm assuming Dumanians response to Aghjayan's piece isn't a letter to the editor...
In that case, what usually follows an op-ed piece in reputable newspapers, is a brief note about the authors. A 2/3 line shpeal that gives credentials, position, post etc... about who the author is so that the readership has some much needed context. Thanks.
Hye, when McCain, seeking the presidency, did not recognize the Armenian Genocide I was determined not to vote for him. Yet, thinking, well at least he is being truthful... Yet, today, how do those who shall have voted for McCain feel - now that he is seeking re-election and now says he
recognizes Genocides... He too, comes across as a dishonest politician. Sadly, the vital issue
of Genocides (the guilty being judged) is being discussed only as a polictical issue, yet in truth, it is really greater than politics. Genocide is a moral issue - millions of innocents vilely murdered, millions of lives destroyed . It appears humanity has not yet become 'civilized' enough.
In the nearly 100 years since the Armenian Genocide by the Ottoman Turks, followed by the constant denials and ploys by the subsequent Turkish leaderships - thus the Christian Armenian Genocide is still ongoing. Armenians, the world over, have for years, been outspoken about the Genocide issue, to no avail. Politics win out over the lives of innocents. Sadly, morality still awaits
a leader who shall come - as did a Washington (not to be king), a Lincoln (saved union), a
Churchill (led Britain) and soon, hopefully, one whose name shall live on in history as a morally inspired individual - courageously - spoke out against Genocides, wherever, whomever,
who morally recognized the issue of Genocide - morally. Manooshag
In brief, Unfortunately our authorities in Armenia in spite of their promises they never ever used Mr. Sassounian's expertise, skills and selfless patriotism in Armenian and Foreign Affairs. Maybe we were able to hinder this national dilemma.
We wish if we have had only 100 "Haiordis" like Mr. Harut Sassounian.
Dr. Babajanian
USA
I would not care less if Hagopn -as an example-praises Avetis and latter starts addresssing him as Hakop jan-this is very characteristic of Armenians discussing on a forum such as this.One says something that pleases(dyur gouka) the other and they becomwe very amicable(temporarily?) .While , when for instance when I just fathom that great Turkey( I shall always b y the by address that country as great,until U.S. British support ceases to it )for they are the ones that made her "great"....
Now then dear Mr. Dumanian,one-as you know sees the glass half full,while the other--) my ref.is to what you attribute to Levon,I presume, LTP Ter Petrossian that his acting in NK was CRUCIAL?
Please note it is exactly the opposite.While I am to say the following to you,I was in Artsakh House,in Yerevan in 1992,when two persons(Surhandags,in Armenian) from Shahumian burst in the room of the vice pfres. of artsah ,where I was too and informed that some 30,000 Armenians are being forced out of Shahumian...by Omon and regular azeri troops..
Meanwhile ,later ,when our Jogads by an by mustered up clout and began to push on...Mr. Levon,instead of picking up the red phone and address himself to Aliev BABA, in Russian,or even in Armenian(cause BABA spoke Armenian,,,)saying Davarish,if you do not at this moment recognize NK(Artsakh) as parcel and part of Armenia, my boys are coming over to salut you in Baki(read Baku,that is the way they pronounce it).He simply was incapable to play the chess game well-read in this case -war game.The winner gives the order to the looser... does not chicken out ..Alas, bygones are bygones:I said enough about his very uncouth act of banishing H.Maroukhian...
So why not accept -like Hagopn never does-that he simply was not a capable leader?
As to ARF,Ramagavaragans, et al.I wish them all very much success,for these are political parties with rank and file and their dogmas to which they adhere to.My idea of ....
<AN ORGANIZED RATHER RE-ORGANIZED SPYURK CANNOT BE BUILT ON THESE.THEY MAY INDEED GO ON THEIR PARTICULAR MODE AS THEY WISH AND DECIDE...
BUT WHAT I AM SUGGESTING IS A COMPLETE "overhaul of the Diaspora ,to restructure it around the hUGE COLLECTIVITIES OF OUR PROFESSIONAL-NON PARTISAN compatriots.Whether this will me to pass or not,is another matter: I FIND IT QUITE TIMELY NOW TO BEGIN SAID PROCESS!!
ARF.Please listen to individual´s viewpooints too.Like oit is in you Dogma...I regret to say sometimes you overlook that...an individual such as self may have a point too.I hatge to add following,no not addressed to ARF Ramgavar, but to Armenian general mindset(s).
A.The Armenian-so far- is self centered,to the point of being conceited and "AMPARTAVAN"
B.The Armenian is not therefore SOCIALLY FORMED..does not wish to ACT IN UNISON w/others.
C.The other worst "trait" yet to be gotten rid off ,is the envy,jealousy he-she excercises to -especially fellow Armens...SO ..
Unless we become more socially formed(V.Oskanian is trying in other fashion,i.e. under another name ,so as it may be dubbed a s his brain child)we cannot achieve much.The only way out I have found out ,studying especially in this problem for us is FORMATION INTO WORK-PROFESSION TYPE ASSOCIATIONS:::
HAMA hAIGAGANI siro,
GAYTZAG PALANDJIAN
He will change his current beliefs as soon as Turkey changes its current positions regarding Israel.
i dont think we should be investigating why he's started to speak on the issue but instead we should stick to him for this and make it clear to him we expect his support in lobbying. whether you like him or not he is one of the most powerful US senators and it can be useful for our cause!!!
Hye, the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation is not an issue for any
debate... Genocide is not debatable! The millions murdered cannot debate, the suvivors passed on, and can't debate....And, who in the world shall the subsequent Turkish leaderships debate with? Themselves, since not many nations can claim to seek Genocide as govenment policy.
The Turks - themselves - in earlier years , brought many of their own Turkish leaders/perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide, to trials and found them to be guilty. Howsomever, these brave mentally depraved men (whom else shall devise such vile evil upon fellow humans - yet sadly are honored as heroes in Turkey!) had easily fled Turkey and yet in some cases, found, justice meted... So, the Turks in their conducting their own Turkish court trials, Turks found them guilty of perpetrating Genocide of the Armenian nation - taking Armenian lives, surviviors marched out into the deserts to live/die, taking Armenian lands, Armenian culture, and as well, turned Armenian churches into stables - this Turkish mentality (need to continue to attack, to debase, to crush their Armenian victims of the Turkish Genocide).
Even into today - as evidenced in the Turkish-oriented Protocols/Roadmaps, thus foisted upon the very nation victimized - by Turks - even yet, even today, into the 21st century! Why?
Because Turkey leaderships are bullies - and further, even lobbyists from the USA, are probably just as guilty of prolonging Genocides - further, the end of the cycle of Genocides from our planet. Sadly.
Manooshag
YES! Manooshag is completly correct in everything that was posted. NOT debatable, NOT acceptable!
He's clearly saying that although he thinks there's ample proof the Armenian genocide really happened, he also believes he must support the protocol process. This is exactly what Obama said when he refused official recognition, citing the importance of the protocol process. Ho hum! Every year a new excuse. Turkey's method of making deals is aggression first, bakshish later. It doesn't matter what the issue is. Now it's the "importance of the protocols" and look at the way they're bargaining before they even think about bringing it to their parliament. Ho hum!
We need is to get our own house in order. We all need to be united in one cause and one vision. We need one central organization that is run with integrity and honesty. Being fragmented is not an option. This organization should include the entire diaspora and the country of Armenia. And yes McCain, like Obama, should be taken with a grain of salt. However, these are pure opportunists and the Armenians shouldn't squander an opportunity either to utilize anyone useful for our cause.
Mr. Ramond,
I occupy no professional post or position. I am thus far just a student in New York City.
the only reason McCain recognized the Genocide is because he is not the President & his opinion has no significant importance.
If he becomes President, see how his colours will change... Just like Obama's did...
Nice try but no cigar. When you retire take Obama and his cronies with you.
I like Rubenian´s view.Use him and the like ,just like they used and are using us...
in brief,accept his voluntary and sudden change as O.K. and ask him to back up the drive for recognition .Then if he quits doing that ,dump him.Otherwise ,if he is sincere and will carry on...support him-better yet make use of his position in lobbying circles etc.,
Gaytz
Tom--all of us alumni owe so much to the AYF--how to properly run a meeting, how to organize an event, to teach us so many organizational skills that we all have used during our personal and business lives.
And then ,there are our lifetime friendships from our beloved AYF. I had to smile when I read those first names in your article since I knew exactly who they were even though you did not state their last names and even though I was in the Providence chapter. I also know most of those that submitted comments to your great article--all from belonging to the organization--how lucky!!
Finally, I must end with the fact that I met my wife ,Claire, at an AYF dance in Worcester--again, how fortunate.
Dear Dr.Astarjian,
Firstly, your description of the countenance of the man Davoutoghlu is superb and on top of it what his eyse this that convey.A perfect analysis-this because you are a medical doctor? also that.But I admire your delving into his inherited capabilities from his ancestors...
I was also watching Al Jazeera-perchance -at that moment when he was being interviewed-the wily,a bat´s-like eyes and dirty smiles,plus his cunningly thought of utterances fit your imging him.
Now tothe other points you have so well pinpointed.All is perfectly narrated,one by one.
May I add just one more detail? no,not to this fox-like person,his personality and his morale,but one main fact that Mr. Bagrad Nazarian has overlooked ,you as well, with reference to the best ever one.
That of "Ottoman turkish Military Tribunals" -their own highest military court-that judged and condemned the mastermind killers-murderers ,Talaat,Enver and Jamal,plus quite a few others..who were to be punished but with help of theirown government "slipped out" and turned up in Malta,Berlin,Rome and other cities of Europe.However our avengers took carfe of them properly.
Sometimes I wonder why,when talk of digging up archives,examine these and convening historians to ascertain whether it was a Genocide that they perpetrated on their"raya" Eermenis or otherwise,our side does not reply:-JUST GO THROUGH YOUR ABOVE TRIBUNAL´S FILES....WHICH OUGHT TO BE SUFFICIENT ENOUGH TO MAKE IT STICK!!!!
Hama Haigagani SIRO
gaytzag palandjian
"A Muslim cannot commit genocide"? That doesn't quite ring right for us Armenians. Erdogan will meet with the President of Sudan who is under indictment for mass murder but won't meet with Netanyahu who is defending his country against Hamas that wants to commit mass murder. No surprise here. Islamic history is full of mass murder and always sweeps it under the rug. 1.5m Armenians, 1m Assyrians, 80m Hindus (that's right, eighty million!), and untold millions of others, at least 250m in fourteen centuries.
My father who survived the genocide told us not to trust Muslims, that "they don't think like us". I didn't understand then, but after studying the history of Islam I now know what he meant. But Americans don't get it, like General Casey saying after the slaughter at Foot Hood that “the loss of diversity is worse than mass murder"(!) How would I explain that to my many relatives that died in the Syrian Desert in 1915?
If nothing else above reporting by Gyunasu is it? difficult name,is enlightening and very informative ,plus ADMIN also -looks like-adds its part to it.I like the last part of it that Armenians should at lest now begin to make contact and communicate with the Kurdish Diaspora.Comes to mind Dr Henry Astarjian who contributes here.He ,I believe I am right, used to do that individually, since many a year ago,when I also vaguely remember that he told me at one encounter at St Vartan church in N,J, that he had gone to Belgium and made contcgt with some kurdish group-people.
This should be done-please let go of Armenian -we are doing it first----for he has already done that,but on an and I repeat individual basis-no good! it should be through a group that represents our people the Armenian people of Diaspora..<AGAIN we get stuck where,I ,with my humble"suggestions" come up ...WE NEED TO RE-ORGANIZE THE DIASPORA TO BE A SUPER-STRUCTURE, with a Supreme Council.No ,not only made up of our political parties and offshoots ,but from THE PEOPLE..this can only be obtained through a crystalization method.That which is very clearly exsplained in my web >Page www.ARMENIDAD-wordlwide.org in brief calling upon the "Professional Colleagues associations" 5 on the scene already to interconnecgt and establish 11 more of these, that are missing ,The Transport & Travel, the Construction field, the Agricultural the environmental and forestry, the mining and industries, The banking and finance, the Education and culture, The food and catering, The Communications IT, Press and advertising and one or two more such to be organized..and receive through them gtheier 3 -person delegates-each with one of the 3 merits that a person in any profession can better advance-again please see said site.
otherwsie just to PROCLAIM ...MOBILIZE THE DIASPORA!!! is not enough, those 100,000 or so Professionals ought tobe sysgtematically drawn upon not but trumpeting(sorry to iuse this word)rather advocating that Here we come we are Mobilizing... without a mechanism....haphazaardly as is and has been so far...If we wish to be an organized Spyurk, dear Tashnags, ramgavars et al, we-rather you must have (GRNAG) support of the HUGE COLLECTIVITIES OF THE SO FAR NEGLECTED,sometimesw called "Silent majority" Above PCA´s are not any more that they are THE COMPONENTS OF A DYNAMIC ARMENIAN DIASPORA NOT YET TAPPED UPON!!!
Please forgive my fast typing and errors.
Hama Haigaganoi SIRO,
gaytzzg palandjian
The first two sentences say that you cannot compare (Gara and Darfur) because 1,500 people died in Gaza, meaning that far less or no one has died in Darfur? What follows after that does not make sense. I don't know if it's a bad translation or what?
Dr. Shirinian,
I think everyone appreciates your insight, however, I did not see any concrete steps you believe the government, Diaspora investors or foreign investors should take to lessen poverty and increase median per capita GDP. If everyone is going to be critical of certain situations, we need to also offer solutions or illustrate successful examples or at least point to people into the right direction. Unfortunately, criticism alone does not accomplish anything but frustration and demoralization.
Not sure that I understand the point the author is trying to make. Armenia has not yet solved its economic problems to become another Switzerland? What a surprise!
The hatred of Turks towards foreigners is not only towards the living,but their desecration of cemeteries in Nachichevan,Cyprus and Anatolia today is proof of their hatred even towards the dead.
Mr. Palandjian,
That was an interesting story about the time when you were in Artsakh. I also have a story. I was in Syunik in 1992 with a group of people involved in some humanitarian assistance. This was soon after the liberation of Shushi in May of 1992. I recall how some non-Dashnak freedom fighters at the time, including some high ranking ones, recounting how Vazgen Sarsgyan along with senior military officers from Armenia and Artsakh went ahead with plans to liberate Shushi without telling Levon Ter Petrosian because they were afraid that he would spoil the plan. In fact, Petrosian found out about the liberation of Shushi 'after' the fact. This can be confirmed via various sources. Levon Ter Petrosian was and continues to be a blight in our modern history. Everything we are ashamed of or worried about about our fledgling republic today has its roots in the self-destructive policies of that vermin and his criminal gang. When I see Armenians today supporting that treasonous criminal, after already getting royally screwed once by him, it make me seriously wonder about the intellectual and ethical integrity of our hopelessly naive people. As bad as the Kocharyan and Sargsyan administrations have been in domestic affairs, they are head and shoulders above the gang of parasites in power in Armenia during the 1990s...
Anyway, thank you for your self-less contribution to our nation.
You're damn right we will Ken. The battle continues.
Surrender never was an option. Mere survival isn't either.
We must plan on not only surviving but THRIVING.
"A Muslim cannot commit genocide?” may be; but of course Turks can and have committed Armenian Genocide and continue even create a false history on the face of the world. For example, the so called protocols state wrongfully as if both the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey have closed boarder between them. Whereas, the truth is that only the Turkey unilaterally has closed the boarder not Armenia.
Under the the Constitution of the Republic of Turkey, whoever lives in Turkey is a Turk. " Turk" means "..a cruel, brutal, and domineering man." See Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, ISBN:0-517-11864-5.
Turk Erdogan does not respect the verdict of the International Criminal Court, however he expect us to believe him that he would respect the verdict of joint commission on Armenian Genocide. Who is kidding?
It is the precise time for Mr. T. Sarksyan to say, "Mr. Erdoghan, You should not confuse Cyprus with Artzakh."
U.S. President Obama should be very cautious in relationships with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Mr. Erdogan can blame Mr. Obama for Indian Genocide as well as for racist behavior in international affairs. Plus to that, Obama should remember that his rating in the United States of America is drastically falling.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
NATO shall disband because of Turkey. Remember!
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
I thought only Ottoman history was being revised in Turkey. It seems history as it happens is also being revised to suit the agenda of Ankara's bandits.
I'm sure half dead Darfuri's are livid over this outrageous charade and rightly so. When the world is trying to galvanize efforts to stop the continuation of the genocide in Darfur and isolate Bashir, Ankara is happily selling them arms and attempting to cleanse Sudan's bloodied international reputation.
But then again the turks seem most comfortable in this role, not to mention their vast experience...
If Erdogan keeps up this distorted self image, he's like to get classified with Ahmadinejad...
A number of astute observations, and eloquently articulated. The reference to the IMF and the WB echoes the thrust behind my 'Blowing the World Bank Whistle' campaign, which came from my parliamentary studies in 2004. The WB/IMF have been driving a thoroughly corrupt agenda in Armenia since the turn of the century, falsifying an economic boom, which would inevitably collapse, but supporting and strengthening an obviously corrupt Armenian presidency and administration. My campaign continued throughout 2007 and 2008, but despite comprehensive backing from high-level international dignitaries, organizations and departments, neither the Bank nor the INT made any effort to responsibly respond to the claims, and the INT evaded the inquiry it was obliged to carry out.
The inevitably disastrous repercussions of the corrupt World Bank and IMF activities are now clearly visible, there is increasing polarization and social unrest throughout the Armenian Republic and outrage throughout the Armenian Diaspora. By the February 2008 presidential elections the Armenian economy had already collapsed, long before the international financial crisis; the corrupt Kocharian / Sargsyan regime was replaced by what is now an openly criminal Sargsyan / Kocharian regime, forcibly imposed on the Armenian people by the March 1st slayings. World Bank and IMF corruption not only continues but has escalated alarmingly in Armenia, with hundreds of millions of dollars now being pumped directly into the pockets of regime cronies, on the implausible pretense of promoting small and medium business enterprise to help Armenia out of its crisis.
Please Arius, Don't mix things together. Arabs also suffered from Turks. The religin nothing to do with humanity. I never heard an Arab killing Armenian they respect us.
Read those translated poems by Arab poets. from the book A Poetic Soul Shined of Genocides
__________________________________________
When the poet, Assad Rustom heard that his friends were hanged, he wrote the famous poem, sharply criticizing,insulting Jamal the butcher.
The Sons of Turks You are Never Muslims
“Jamal - Sir! your name means beauty
But you’re awfully ugly
Your tongue and palms are fully dirty.
You are senseless, criminal, full of sins
You have no spirit, no clean soul,
Deficient of manhood humanity.
____________________________________
he Syrian poet, Nasseb Areedah wrote his untitled poem:
“Coffin his body
Bury his soul
In the deepest grave
Don’t feel sorry
Don’t lament
Who is disloyal
Remain soulless dead
Can never woke up to feel
Yet to regret.”
_______________
Another poem from Alzarkali
The Arabs and the Turks
“Those Turks the grandsons of Genghis Khan.
Took young Arabs pushed them to a slave bazaar.
Promised statements changed abruptly,
Acting exactly the opposite for those held in custody
Torturing, humiliating, insulting the braves.
Yet on what they swore, pretending agreed.
They are dishonest, soulless, enjoys greed.”
_____________________________________
The Lebanese poet, poem, Fuad Al Khateeb blaming the Turks,
“You Turks harmed our people in their joints so hard
Till swords blade awoke to vengeance sharply shard.”
_____________________________________________
The Armenians helped Jamal the so-called the Ottoman Empire-Astana. Later he betrayed not only the Armenians but also the entire nationalists of the Middle East. He started killing them from Anatolian mountains reaching Yemen including holy land of Muslims, the Arabia.
If you read their poems you will get shocked what they did for Arabs in Macca( Now Saudi Arabia) also are doing for kurds who are Sunni muslims.
If you read their poems you will get shocked what they did for Arabs in Macca( Now Saudi Arabia) also are doing for kurds who are Sunni muslims.
I'm disturbed by the comment of Arius, who says Hamas wishes to commit mass murder against Israel. That is as farfetched as suggesting Armenians wished to slaughter Turks in the early 1900s. Hamas is fighting a defensive battle with few military resources against an invader and looter. Hamas should be supported for the same reasons I, a Greek, support Armenians against Turkey's lying historians.
Realist.. WELL SAID.
I am 100% with you..
Enough is enough.. we need something concrete and once we see it in black and white, then we would consider putting you in the Oval Office..
Puch xosqera can go only so far.. we WILL NOT and SHOULD NOT fall into the same trap again..
G
Darfur’s Dark Dawns in 2008
Darfur* dark days
Still as started, remains.
This is the year 2008,
Can each one of us yell
For hearing screams?
The pains in hearts
All deeply carved.
Who’s able to heal
The past-present injuries?
Thy must be born of heroic seeds!
Thy need a brave soul,
A virtuous human
Who can sand their fists
Blind slayers eyes
To stripe bloods.
Where are the teargases,
Silencing horse riders; the Janjaweeds.
Those teargases are always
Used to diffuse hard workers, strikers—
Who always inquire peace.
They need some—I can’t say what!
To paralyze those shark minds.
Someone must invent such mats.**
Let us promote those tasks stimulate, support,
Treating broken hunches, to run advance!
__________________________________
* Darfur genocide: The conflict started in February 2003, ethnic, tribal, non-religious.
Nevertheless Arabs against non-Arabs. Muslims killing Muslims’ humans.
** mats: materials
Now!!! at long last, ther is one that is supporting my Scheme-up above John-who comprehends the effect of POWER ,whether in human resources or material-BOTH together actually-,like I have been advocating over 30 yrs.. leave the political parties alone ,let thme carry on their work,but re-organize the Diaspora(s) is a MUST at this juncture.The Huge Collectivities of our non-partisan ought to be brought together in a fashion that has Mechanism..like this humble servant of the Armenian people has projected,developing re-developing the System-yet to be employed-over the yrs.In short ,if we wish to be an ORGANIZED ENTITY, enlapping ALL of our people,it is through a crystaliztion mode,that can lead the "Professional Colleagues Associations´" members to REAL PARTICIPATION AND REPRESENTATION,as is outline in my web site www.Armenidad-worldwide.org
The argument is to let in the so far so called "silent majority"-no such thing any more..they are very much advanced in Professions-the majority of our Diaspora such and can indeed be counted upon ,as becoming the backbone of a Diaspora, that will by and by show its muscles.No.not belicose-style but through their Inter-professional Groups elect their delegates to the Central Bodies of each and all Armenian -dense areas such as Boston with surround areas, Marseilles, B-Aires ,Beirut S.Francisco,Paris , L.A etc.,then through these central Bodies elect their delegates to Central Council of each Diaspora country!! which in turn submit to the Supreme Council(in 5 Departments)
1.The Legal-legislative in Strasbourg-next to RA delegates(no not precisely sitting next to them) but in same town with office.
2.The Executive in N.Y.-next to RA´s U.N. delegations
3.The Economic in Geneva,CH, with 16 offices,each for the respective Profession,like Medical´s Baming & Finance-see my web site for details..
4.The Social Services & emigration (to Armenia and Artsakh-Javakhk) later,as soon as the intended "National Investment Trust Fund" .Since this is the largest "near Diaspora" and emigration easier.Indeed, once said Fund is establishede by our magnates(as nucleus and added to by some 100,000 members of the PCA´s)...For without Economic Power backed up by said members,nothing can be realized that is worth considering...
5.This Department of the Supreme council , is the only one that exsits,namel The Spiritual,at St Etchmiadzin in conhunction with The Great House of Cilicia.
All above Departments will represent the Supreme Council according to Geographic,Demographic and Economic locations as can be seen..AND in constant contact with ea other through most advanced communications system.
The political parties:-To These we salute and wish them the best and hope and trust that they will through "Dual membership allowed" in above PCA´s participate as well.Though ideological propaganda not to be allowed while sitting with Prof.Colleagues-Outside ,indeed yes.In short we applaud their so far done and to be done work in future.But it is time they realized that above segment of the Armenian population also EXISTS< but has not been put into ACTION.
To surmise,my other important Novelty, is in the No.7 Bulletin in above web site.
Happy reading and
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian,ex-board memberof
Armenian Congress of Paris ,1979
Thank you for this article. The point is clear: there is something fundamentally wrong with the economic system in Armenia. In other words, the issue is not simply that "The economy in Armenia is bad", the way that today "The economy in the United States is bad". The issue, rather, is that the pure-market driven system, run by the few, do nothing but lead to the downfall of the country's general population. Put another way, even if the economy world-wide was booming right now, it would still not lead to an economically prosperous life for the general population of Armenia given its current economic policies... AND IT'S TIME FOR FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE.
Erodogan is a master politican. The Turks have had many in their grand plan of denial. Let's keep in mind that his public inconsistencies would not tolerated were it not for the political capital of Turkey in the world of geopolitics. Sylva makes a very good point that we need to remind ourselves as we pursue justice. Our issue is with the governmental policy of Turkey..... not with Muslims or even Turks as a people. Remember that this seemingly endless proceess of governments "recognizing"
the Genocide(and then "unrecognizing" when the government changes) will end only as change continue within Turkey.
We can debate this , but the fact remains that Turkey will acknowledge the Genocide when they view it is in their interests. Now that may come as a result of a final EU hurdle or perhaps from internal enlightenment. They know what happened, but they have a huge political problem. After
decades of rewriting history and educating their young as if the Armenian homeland in Anatolian
never existed; how do they tell their people it was all denial? That's a process for them. We can accelerate it by encouraging the enlightened elements emerging in Turkish society.
If we are serious about being a player in this game,thereis no room for racism or ethnic
stereotyping. That has sustained our devastated self-esteem for years; but now we have a real chance
to bring this to light. We must be commited to the political process and not distractions.
We must show the world that we are the descendants of this glorious people that has contributed so much to civilization. We should be the loudestvoices against what is happening in Darfur; not because al-Bashir may go to Turkey, BUT BECAUSE IT IS GENOCIDE AND AS VICTIMS WE KNOW AND HAVE A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO SPEAK. Does it sound familiar? There was no genocide.
There were war casualties. It's an internal matter. Kharpet, Erzerum, Bosia, Darufur!!!! As Armenians; where is our outrage? We want respect because we were victims.That's fair, of course. It's also fair to expect that we will use our misfortune to help others. As a Chrisitian people, we must expect noless from ourselves. Perhaps ,these are new fronts that can also help our cause.
Hratch / Bruce,
You both cannot demand change, when no one is coming up with actual answers to solve the problem. All you are doing is beating your chest in anger about the current situation. I understand that and appreciate the outrage; however, people need to start offering solutions or ideas before we scream out in rage.
Please!!!never mix Islam or muslim with Ottoman turkish inherited present great Turkey.Arabs,Persians and other muslim people have nothing in common with t u r k s ...Just try to remember,when war had broken out in NK Karabagh , the Azeris and great Turkey tried hard to wrap it around our necks that Armenians were killing muslims,plainly in order to get the Muslim world on their side...no such thing!it was because of Ottoma n inherited diplomacy to further decimatge Armenians on their way to greater turkey,or if you will Turanism -.as Turgut Ozal ex Premier ,or President of latter boasted ,"we shall extend our reign from the Balkans to the Chinese walls once again and make it a great TURAN, read great Turkey-as he used to dub it-when ,luckily we somehow convinced the other muslims that we have had no problem living amongst persians arabs or any other muslim country.
Now while I do appreciate what Stepan so well distinguishes between people and Government Policy of great Turkey,trying to make us aprehend-comprehend this,it is as yet the GOVERNMENT and Erdogan´s like that rule that strengthened republic of Turkey............. by allies...who are incognizant of latter´s true intentions...
Making an effort to enlighten the turkish intellectuals and by extgension their public is fine, a good idea and approval by all,however,please do not forget the fact that people ARE RULED BY SUCH CORRUPT AND DECEITFULL, not to say fascist,or perhaps yes fascist people.It is incumbent on the ordinary turk to wake up to stand up and emancipate and throw out such filth from amongst themselves and become a repentent ,humble and honest neighbour with Armenia and others...
Thence to argue that that they are ALRFEADY SO is futile, they still need to be educated as to what transpired in the last two centuries in their usurped lands...conquerers are known to be driven out,dont´forget...´from land not their own...some day great Turkey will be properly divided between Lazistan,Kurdistan,Western Armenia and possibly partially also Greeks...
Times change....
gaytz
Dear Mr. Astarjian:
You have made several spelling mistakes.
TRT = Turkiye Radyo Televizyon (not Turkyenin Sesi Radiosu)
Allah Askina (not Allah Ashkina)
Sevre Olum Lozana Hayat (not Sevres Olum, Lozan Hayat)
Korucu (not Korujus)
Hamidiye Alaylari (not Hamidiya Alaylari)
PKK: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan (not Karkarani Kurdustan)
If you want to use Turkish words/sentences, please use correctly. If you are not familiar with Turkish language, please do not use it!
Thanks
Nishan B, I don't beat my chest in anger about anything, nor am I screaming, so let's please be careful with our assumptions.
The point of the above article is to state one fact: the current economic system has not been working for Armenia. In other words, the total free market system is no longer an option. A system that creates monopolies and a tiny class of elites that both own and run the country is no longer an option. And a fundamental change is needed. (And by the way, that's a lot for a single article to cover... so don't expect solutions in the same newspaper article).
Once people have come to this conclusion, we can move on to alternatives. The alternatives to such a system are many... but all have the same thing in common: 1) The economic system will not be merely market-regulated, but rather will be policy/government regulated. 2) The economic system will be aimed at bettering the lives of the general population rather than the very few. (In such systems, the economy will not be judged as good or bad merely by the GDP, but by a standard that evaluates the quality of life of the masses.
The details of such a system are far long to describe in a paragraph, an article, or even a short book. But understanding the spirit of such a system is the most important thing. (After all, it would include such details as maximum hours per week to work, minimum wages, health insurance, etc.).
Nishan, many have offered actual answers to solve the problem, so I do not want to go in to that. I will however say that the regime relies on state-imposed lawlessness to maintain its grip over Armenia's business sector and society. I for one have spent the past 18 months fighting a bogus court case in which the state has been demanding I pay $60,000+ for my business activities. The case involved more than 10 court hearings, a second judge after the first threw out the case, and eventually the government official withdrew his complaint. This is typical of what happens to anybody who dares to not toe the regime line - it happens time and time again, and it certainly can not be good for Armenia's economy.
Hye, as I have in the past expressed that the Turks of today have been perpetuating the Kurdish Genocide albeit Turks believe they are cleverly accomplishing this - serreptiously (?) - by inclusive
use of the word 'terrorists' - addressing the Kurkish peoples always as "Kurdish terrorists"....
The Turks, not yet having finished the Genocide of the Christian Armenians into today- through these nearly 100 years - now, too, has been pursuing Genocide against the Kurds from the 20th century into the 21st century. Together with the GWBush/Cheney administration, labeling Kurds as the 'Kurdish terrorists'. Hence, 'permitting' Turks to pursue Turks goals against Kurdish nation, legally.
- Turkish Genocide goals against the Kurds - pursued legally!
- Genocide goals being flaunted before the civilized world.
- Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation- undebatable - being DENIED depite all Archives/more.
So, Turks think they, as Turks, are so clever - they see the rest of the world as not too bright/unintelligent - since Turks of today continue to perpetrate yet another Genocide - yes, another - (Genocide Number TWO) in full sight of all the civilized nations on our planet!!
Turkey proceeds... doing/giving the world that at which it excels - Genocides, Denials, Dishonesty.
Turkish Alliances of today/ broken tomorrow. Pursue/crush victims of Turkish Genocides.
For Politics have taken over - Genocides being merely a Moral issue...
And yet, there will be one, he/she who will courageously speak - Morally - for the innocents murdered, the innocent survivors with lives are destroyed. Even today we watch as Darfurians... victims of the vile inhumanity of man... surviving, never forgetting the horrors, loss of families, and more.
This leader shall be heroically written in the history of the world as the one who chose to pursue and bring to the world - the end of the cycle of Genocides - wherever, whenever and BY WHOMEVER...
Manooshag
Dishonesty, deceit... and GETS AWAY WITH IT.
Politics it appears clears the way for this unmoral method of eliminating innocents - who get in the
Turks way... Morality, is waiting to happen; waiting for a leader to go down in history as the one who
recognized the victims, who recognized the perpetrator, who recognized a Genocide of innocents.
Manooshag
Spelling corrections are always welcome. I wonder how many Turks know how to spell genocide.
Hratch,
You say: "The point of the above article is to state one fact: the current economic system has not been working for Armenia."
What is the basis for such conclusion? I am looking at two measures - GDP (as more objective) and the level of income of people I personally know (as more subjective) over the last 10 years and by both measures the progress has been stunning. I think that Armenia has achieved a lot, given the challenges of the starting point, difficult environment and internal issues. It has been very much not about what was desirable but rather what was possible.
You say further about alternatives: "The alternatives to such a system are many… but all have the same thing in common: 1) The economic system will not be merely market-regulated, but rather will be policy/government regulated."
With all due respect, the idea that corruption and inefficiencies can be solved by giving more power and regulation to the bureaucrats, especially in Armenia's environment, does not look very credible to me. Some level of regulation is necessary as is the development of a strategic economic framework but the government should not be running the economy (unless you want to destroy it).
Having said that, I believe that yet a lot is to be achieved to improve both the strength of the economy and the lives of the people (such as catalyzing the development of small/medium enterprises and empowering local governments and self-governance) but all of this needs to be done within the same strategic direction.
To illustrate my earlier point, this is a reference to the UN Human Development Index website for Armenia (this time a more objective measure of the quality of life in Armenia). Take a look at the chart with Armenia's ranking over time.
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_ARM.html
I think this should put some of the critical claims in prospective.
I support the perspective let the people of Armenia decide their relationships with other countries.
I share Mr. Hachikian concern for future generations. The welfare of my future generations is very much dependent on domestic policies and foreign affairs of the United States. Hardly anything that happens in Armenia can now impact our family. None of my relatives are in Armenia--they are all Americans. No one is going to move back to Armenia and certainly not to Kharpert. While I feel perfectly comfortable speaking for US humanitarian aid to Armenia , that doesn't extend to prescribing what policies the people of Armenia should adopt as long as they are not at cross currents to my country, the USA.
For those who see themselves as Armenians first there is a direct way of influencing the policies of Armenia. Relocate to Armenia, become an active citizen and speak to your ideas and perspectives in the forums of that country. I can admire that course of action. It is genuine and noble.
I just find it disingenuous to live in the USA and make great emotional appeals for sacrifice on the part of those people who live in Armenia. The people of Armenia are not responsible for the aspirations of anyone beyond their own borders.
He seems to be transliterating -- hence why the "s" becoems a "sh," etc.
To Paul,
I don´t think anyone could have said better.And yet my following is to dear Dr Astarjian!!!
Dear Henry,Please take upon yourself to conduct( you told me then, some dozen or so yeasrs ago)that you had contacted Kurdish Parliament people" in exile" to carry on the mission,which is much more important at this juncture ,than say "we must mobilize"...
even a one man crusade-in this case,yours-is tremendously important,especially so now that the great Tufrkey diplomacy is using the second version of their strategy/tactics you describe...
Time is of the utmost important factor NOW.I dare say you are the ex-officio Armenian spokesperson ,that the nation needs for real rapprochement with the Kurds in exile...
If you cannot do it personally, have a devout Armenian younger person do it,after some apprenticeship under your guidance. I do not think this or tht Armenian political party would excercise that option,which is crucial for us .In the past also ,it has always been-in many nations- mainly one person who actually conducts-leads a crusade of this nature.Nor does that mission behoove the fragmented Armenian political currents/parties,present stance.
May God give you force-energy to carry on...
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Ed´s is a more measured viewpoint/comment,the only one that in essence differs from others´.He is also carefull in not painting a rosy colour for everything.Nonetheless, there is some truth to what has been POSSIBLE to achieve.I would like to remark that right from the begining,Armenia and the rest of the 14 other ex-soviet republics went the wrong way-path,turning from a ruthlessly dictatorial economic-political regime OVERNIGHT to the present "Wild" free market economy.Since I have resided for near 13 years in a dictatorial regime(to the right) in Europe,when Portugal,Greece and Spain,underwent a transitional period of Euro-Socialism(I live 12 with latter)they were able to by and by adapt to the Free Market one,gradually.Now all three in EU .Unfortunately RA ,for us did not folow that path.Overnight ,from one extreme to the other ,and in this case -like in Moscow,Russia-a "wild" one. Someone asked if there could be an alternative solution, or why not put forward one.
I would suggest(I never offer or advise) while it is not too late,especially what with the main leading world economy country´s fiasco, Armenia ought to adopt the Swedish,Danish and Finnish style Socialistic(Euro, not soviet) government controlled economic policies.Another up above, opined that this would not work since in that latter entity(the government)in RAthey would resist it.Not totally true. If a few political important parties unite, such as the ARF, Heritage and a fdw smaller ones they could muster up enough clout to at the very least for a five year PLAN offer-suggest this Euro Socialist system, in order(they could argue) to come out of the present world Economic Crunch.Which many countries would do well to do that as well.Enough of the ultra Free market one!!
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag
I still find it disturbing that there are some otherwise intelligent people, who believe that despite being one of the most fiercest voices in the Kharabagh committee, despite going to jail for an entire year over his calls to reunify Artsakh with Armenia, and despite the fact that he re channeled all of Armenia's resources into winning the war, including appointing capable people like Vazgen Sarkisian, Serge Sarkisian, etc (who Avetis is claiming knew of Levon's deceptive stance on the war...despite being the man to appoint them to essentially build an army)...Levon Ter Petrosyan did not want to win the war.
Mr. Avetis, it is quite sad that you are firm on this opinion. As is evident later, anybody with an even SLIGHT defeatist stance (i.e. 1998) would have been quickly and easily dethroned. And That is exactly what happened in 1998. Are you suggesting that Vazgen Manukian, Vazgen Sarkisian, Serge Sarkisian, etc...were all aware of Levon's lack of support but didn't bother resigning, publicly revealing it, or try to kill him? That means the "democrat victor" of 1996 elections, the founder of the modern Armenian army, and the current Armenian president have the backbone of weasels.
Realistically speaking, the war would have NOT been won had the President of Armenia, whomever it may be, fully and enthusiastically supported the effort.
Talk about "deranged," sheesh.
To Paul:
We know how to spell genocide. I also wonder how many diaspora Armenians know how to spell terrorist organization “ASALA”.
I applaud and admire Michael Hagopian's initiative for the preparation of the documentaries; these are without any doubt the most important and most vivid testimonies of the unpunished crime of the Armenian Genocide . On the other hand I am shocked to hear from Taner Ackcam's mouth that "Armenia has to have good relations with Turkey in order to be safe", in other words Mr. Akcam is advising Armenia and the Armenian people (the victim, who is still being subjected to genocide, by Turkey to this very day; a genocide that never stopped since the 14th century, which clearly indicates that Turkey's intentions are to completely obliterate Armenia from the map and eliminate up to the last Armenian from the face of the planet earth, so that it finally lives in peace in Asia Minor, that it confiscated from the Greeks and the Armenians, coming all the way from central Asia ) to continue to bow its head to the executioner for the final fatal blow.
Behind this apparent naivete of Mr. Akcam, it is not difficult to see his malicious intent, namely to make the Armenians forget about the crime and continue to bear its trauma silently and eventually leave the crime unpunished. Mr. Akcam is deliberately digressing from the true subject: Tukkey's historically notorious use of violence on the weak, in this case Armenia, to confiscate wealth and trritory and the cowardly attitudes of the three notorious Armenian Genocide deniers the US, UK orchestrated by Israel.
The writer of the "Shameful act" knows very well that if the three above named countries, the axis of evil, are willing, then Turkey has absolutely no room to maneuver and will acknowledge the Genocide and make reparations and land restitutions; this we have yet to hear from Mr. Akcam's mouth in order to be sure that he sincerely believes in what he writes.
Ali-Pasha?
the last adjective does not really suit you.Since you do not-cannot distinguish between blind terrorism,from that which in FRANCE was proved to be attributed to "freedom fighters" when latter took centre stage on the Int´l political scene,after Armenian Pleas for Justice had fallen on DEAF EARS...
They neverthless stopped it when REAL WAR broke out in NK (Gharebagh)Artsakh for us and joined the "jogads" there,(partisan groups formed) for a war foreced upon the people of said Province,Armenian for millenia!!!
No freedom fighters cannot be dubbed as "terrorists".When your own "Ottoman turkish Militry Tribunals" condemned Tallat, Enver, Jamal and the rest of those criminals,there ought not to be further doubt or discussion in that respect.
No Mr. Ali, we know how to distinguish freedom fighters(avengers for Justice) from terrorists.
You would do better to do so too.
gaytz
Bravo Hai_Rider! But an even easier and more just endeavor on the part of the Diaspora would be to support those Armenians that are genuinely fighting for a strong Armenia based upon its roots and values. Not the corrupt and soulless place it is fast becoming. My Father is one of those persons; sentenced to 5 years in prison for daring to speak out against the un-Armenian thugs who will sell the country without reservation if it means more wealth for themselves.
Where is one word from ANCA to support TODAY's Armenian victims? They are being killed today - from hunger, oppression, and de facto forced expatriation. These things have not only happened in 1915.
It's a shame and hypocracy that these American-Armenian leaders would let real patriots - actually fighting on the ground with everything at stake - suffer and perish alone. Without leaders like Ashot Manukyan, no amount of speeches abroad will save Armenia. Who does Ken think is actually fighting the stuggle?
Dear Samvel,
I beg to differ.From time casi(quassi) immemorial....great Turkey has been supported by its allies,even before the present Euro-American British one,then with a somewhat different face.This becasue these still pursue-notwithstanding Russian overtures to Democray etc. -latter in their eyes is an adversary not to say enemy.Meaning ,also even though they have become a capitalist style run entity, they still are RRRRusians of Peter the Great ,later soviet RRussia.In my humble viewppoint,it was easier for them to forget and forgive Germany´s animocity -don´t forget an anglo saxon nation-than make up with present Russian replica of a capitalistic regime.
And this will go on untill an unknown period of time..
Armenia cannot but still stake its hope on only either integrating into further Russian sphere,so to sepak-it already forms part of the 5 nation pact-or else, as is being now staged, a rapprochement-unwillingly-to the Euro-Am backed great Turkey.Granted,if this last option is excercised there may be some breathing space for Armenia, however fictive, it will pave the way for some normalization.
Other than that,great Turkey has to by and by come to terms,not only with an autonomous Kurdisstan and in extension-automatically-parcelling our of some portion of Anatolia(actually western Armenia) the real and lawfull owners of it.There are some signs of gradual softening up of present turkish regime,though aesthetic,but nonetheless a process that will end up in actual change.
This change ,albeit superficial, will also penetrate by and by (along some 5/10 years)into Turkey chaning its hard stance to a more flexible one.Iran also does actually enter into the picture ,Western Euro-Am opposing its nucldear programme.Witness recent slow rapprochement in this dirfection too.They know full well that Iran is not Shah´s Iran anymore and will have to face up to it.
Nato being disbanded is a far cry therefore, from what is on the scene, since-this is where you err,if I may say so-they still depend on it tremendously,both for the Northern Bear and also Middle Eastern issues,still pending to be solved.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
This is addresssed to Dr.Astarjian,
Dear Henry,
Pan-Armenian.net, today has it that "Armenian-Kurdish relations undergo negative ...
This is because great Turkey-as you and all know-has begun a courtship,rather softening up their stance with the Kurds..Their cunning-wily diplomacy never stops.Whereas, as it has reported Armenia in the ex-soviet union was where Kurds were treated very well.That attitutde continues even today in re-independt Armenia.
BUT WE NEED TO DO SAME FROM DIASPORA WITH THE KURDS IN EXILE,THOSE WHO KNOW WHO THE TURKS AND THEIR DIPLOMACY IS LIKE.DO PLEASE CONTACT THEM AGAIN.
If not possible by you personally -like I wrote before-have one of your trsuted friends-aids DO IT.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag
To: Free Ashot Manukyan
First, my sincerest wishes for justice and freedom for your father and others who strive to bring good governance to Armenia, people who work to rid Armenia of the disgraceful corruption that has come to characterize the country of my ancestors.
I agree, that the internal issues of Armenia need to be addressed--that is a stronger economy, the rule of law, and democratic governance free of corruption. To speak honestly, 5 generations of our family have now lived in the USA--we are well removed from Armenia--I can not speak with a voice that should be given equal regard as one who lives his or her life as a citizen of that country . Certainly, I wish our ancesteral homeland the very best--all the aspects previously mentioned and of course, peace and good health for the people. It is hard for me to share the perspective of many in the diaspora that our focus should be the genocide of 1915 and the seeking of lost territory. It is hard to focus on the past when there are so many Armenians living today in the homeland that suffer from so much. I have the view that once Armenia is a healthy and viable state, neither the dependent of Russian or European/American or the diasporan largesse then it will be an effective voice to address these terrible past events. Weak and dependent states don't have a negotiating position.
All I can assure you, is that Iwill continue speaking out to our congressional Senators and Representatives about how USA can work to help Armenia become the kind of nation we would all want. I encourage the actions of my government to help break the stranglehold around the neck of the people of Armenia.
Again, my prayers for the health, safety, and earliest release of your father.
Henry,
Levon Ter Petrosyan, according to reliable sources, did in fact attempt to sabotage the war effort in that time period and had even ordered the inactivation, if you will, of the intelligence apparatus. I am telling you these are words from reliable sources which I cannot reveal. In any case, you're wrong. I find Avetis' stody to be more believable.
Henry,
It is true. The protestor were not savage tribesmen. They were in fact either "anti-khrabakhtsi" cult members or "Levon the literate fellow compared to those illiterate non-Yerevantsi ciriminals" cult members. Either way, their decision to march alongside drug addicts (which was confirmed by the numerous remnants, along with the customary "street defecations" and so on typical of "narcomans" on the streets) and paid HHSh agitators is not seen by myself as a brilliant moment in Armenian politics. It is ironic that the ARF was trying to be the moderate party at this point.
As to the ARF, I find the this party in times a provocateur, at other times a suspiciously enthusiastic zealout in dividing communities under quasi-McCarthyeseque pretexts and pretentions, at other times a peacemaker and a dove, and under Marukhian a more balanced and patriotic party, and so on. They are a party quite schizophrenic in their attitudes. George knows my feelings on the matter, and we have had our share of arguments on the topic.
Therefore, my criticism of Ter Petrosyan is not rooted in any particular party sympathy except that of being a radical pro-Armenian--:) Avetis is correct on Ter Petrosyan. You might not agree with him and see him as some sort of radical, but he is correct. Kocharian's "thank you letter" and other formalities are simply the formal state level pomp, which usually has no substance in this oligarch driven and corrupt context. I don't see any legitimacy in the current status quo, and this illegitimacy carries over into what my perception and assessment of such "state level pomp" is. Levon is "respected" because he is powerful and has support from various sources and not because he has done good deeds.
In fact he was the main irrational agitator in February to March of this year who employed all the most base prejudices of the constituents sympathetic to the HHSh whose sympathies lie on purely "regionalism." The bogey man employed was, of course, "the kharabakh clan, that kharabakhtsi" and so on. I cannot believe you are sidestepping this reality.
During the war times, I have heard enough testimony from reliable sources to come to the same conclusion as Avetis above regarding Ter Petrosyan's role and position.
Congratulations Henry on the Protocols and on Kurds. Keep up the good work. Stephan
Yegparian is right on the mark again.
This is exactly what I was thinking of in that same Machiavellian context.
Its time to show some fangs.
No more Mr. Nice Gullable Armenian.
Fiscal fear is the name of the game and we must be well versed in delivering such
does when required.
Mr. hagopn,
It's unfortunate you can't reveal these "sources." Allow me to reveal my sources that suggest the exact opposite: Defense Minister/Prime Minister Vazgen Sarkisian (killed on October 27, 1999), Deputy Interior Minister, Colonel General Artrun Markaryan (shot in January 1998), Minister Smbat Ayvazyan (former Artsakh Fidayi and political prisoner, recently released), just to name a few.
To go beyond my personal experiences, the countless letters and speeches Robert Kocharian gave at the time (and all the way until he came to Armenia) seem to paint Levon as a man extremely committed to the war effort. Even after the 1998 split and resignation, Kocharian wrote to Levon on his birthday saying the exact opposite that you have said. As to why Levon appointed people like Serge Sarkisian (who, I assume, you think was committed to the war effort) as Defense Minister and so on before and after the war seems...idiotic...if he didn't agree with their very fundamental views regarding the war. Doesn't it? This seems to have all the attributes of a conspiracy theory...almost.
To comment on: "It is true. The protestor were not savage tribesmen. They were in fact either “anti-khrabakhtsi” cult members or “Levon the literate fellow compared to those illiterate non-Yerevantsi ciriminals” cult members. Either way, their decision to march alongside drug addicts (which was confirmed by the numerous remnants, along with the customary “street defecations” and so on typical of “narcomans” on the streets) and paid HHSh agitators is not seen by myself as a brilliant moment in Armenian politics."
You've adapted Avetis's unsubstantiated and careless view to give it the aura of rationality and balance, only to essentially hint at the same thing he was saying. So let me get this straight...the fact that drug addicts high off cocaine and PCP (who are, as we all know, by nature, rational and very thoughtful people) chose to spontaneously join the violence and confusion (which was directly caused by the government) is the fault of....the protesters? You're logic is actually a little funny. The protesters, while being assaulted, scared for their lives, should have taken the time to figure out how to distinguish "high narcomans," find them, and then they should have figured out what they should do with them in a manner that pleases Avetis, hagopn, and Kocharian. Brilliant. Assuming this "narcoman" factor is as true and important as you say it is (which I don't think it is), you're attitude towards them vis-a-vis the protestors is unfortunate.
There are, of course, anti-Kharabaghtsi type people in Armenia. There are also anti-Gyughatsi type of people in Yerevan. There are also very anti-Hayastantsi people in Kharabagh (you should meet my cousins who have served in Kharabagh and see what they have to say about how the people of Armenia get treated in the Kharabagh Army -- very sad considering they are their to protector their lives and families and nation). But you cleverly labeled the entire March 1 opposition (which I would argue encompasses the majority of the people of Armenia) as being "cult members." I don't feel the need to go on since it seems like we're going to get into the "division" conversation people in the Diaspora like to exaggerate and obsess over. If the people of Armenia hated Kharabaghtsis, they would have never elected the head of the Kharabagh committee as president, they would have never protested in 1988, they would have never fought in 1991, they would have never starved for them in 1993, and they would have succumbed to economic pressures long ago.
The "bogeyman" IS the Kharabagh clan and the Kharabaghtsis. That is no secret. And yes, It is at the core of the people's concerns. It is unlike the corrupt state system under Levon and the USSR. It is a CLAN system. I don't have time to get into details about this, but it can be a fun political science adventure for you. It also might explain Levon's immense popularity in legitimate terms and not "cults" or "savage African tribesman." But for now, I'll leave you with the last paragraph of Levon's first and most important campaign speech:
"I wish to underscore this right away: their Karabakh origin has absolutely no bearing on my position. Had they deserved it, they would be welcome to rule Armenia not just for ten more years, but for 100 years, as their ancestors, the Hetumians of Artsakh, ruled the Kingdom of Cilicia for 150 years. I consider unacceptable attempts to drive a wedge between the people of Karabakh and Armenia through malicious talk and provocation; they are unjust and dangerous. I will therefore do everything within my power to prevent the spread and reach of such attitudes, especially since 99% of the support base of the disgraceful system established by Kocharyan and Sargsyan consists of natives of Armenia proper."
Good day to you all.
I suggest Mr. Yegparian should start his "No more Mr. Nice Guy" approach, by looking 30 miles down the road from his Burbank front-door step, where the estranged wife of the most ruthless American-denier of the Armenian Genocide, is running for Congress. That's right. Mattie Fein, the wife (the last 4 years) of Turkish Legal Defense Fund head Bruce Fein, has moved across country...to the Beach Cities...to run for Congress. There are rumors she might call for Genocide Recognition. Really? How foolish the Armenian-American community would be to take her at her word. She has shared a bed with a man who boasts a Harvard Law degree and no conscience. He has done everything in his power to cast doubt on the Armenian Genocide, along the way being paid fez-fulls of money. He was most recently sitting side-by-side with Congresswoman Jean Schmidt in Ohio, as they trashed Congressional candidate David Krikorian. Mattie Fein says Bruce Fein, is still a close friend and a close adviser. Why, if she believes there was an Armenian Genocide, would she hold the vile Bruce Fein in such high esteem. I suspect David Duke and Tom Metzger are friends of hers, too. Mattie Fein should be destroyed and disgarded. No one should give her the time of day.
Using terms like "plutocracy" ; "neoliberal"; "economic elite" does nothing to help explain whatever point the author is trying to make.
The Government of Armenia (past and present) sold much of the controlling interest in major industries to the Russians and what is isn't in direct Russian control is in the hands of a few people linked to the government.
Folks, that is how its going to stay for sometime to come.
Let's hope Turkish authorities or their surrogate minions don't find Astarjian criminaly negligent of 'insulting turkishness' for mispelling turkish words...
To answer your question ali, the same number of Turks that know how to spell terrorist organization "ERGENEKON" - did I spell that right?
Henry:
I first read your piece in the Armenian Weekly (print edition). I agree with everything you stated.
You have captured the contradictions that the ARF has put itself in. It's not Anti-ARF, it just is what it is.
Moreover, while not perfect, your writing style is clear and flows well. I wish more people followed your style.
Finally, I have to commend the Weekly, a party organ, for printing this article. ARF is often accused of censoring views that are contradictory to the official party position. Your article is proof that is not the case.
Mr. Rootarmo,
Thank you and well said re: the Weekly and its staff.
To add to what I was saying earlier. It is a well documented and open secret in Armenia that Kharabaghtsis run the show. At this point, Serge and Kocharian don't even deny it -- many government sanctioned comedians and shows have poked fun at this fact. The average Armen from Kharabagh doesn't pack his bag, get in a car with his family, and drive off to Yerevan hoping for a better job and future. That's not who we're talking about when we say the "kharabaghtsis" and nobody in Armenia imagines it to be so. Most of the Kharabaghtsis that come to Armenia come at the request of Kocharian and Serge, usually family members, close friends or former Artsakh officials -- they are given high ranking jobs, are aided in establishing businesses, and enjoy the direct and indirect financial, physical, and political support of Serge and Kocharian. (More so Kocharian than Serge) They are a privileged class in Yerevan.
In all honesty, I have met very few Kharabaghtsis who don't consider Hayastantsis to be filth -- just last friday one Kharabaghtsi in the U.S. told me we should support Serge over Levon because Serge is a Kharabaghtsi and Kharabaghtsis are better people than Hayastantsis. Can I not argue, then, that Robert Kocharian's policies are based on anti-Hayastantsi ideals...considering he seems to give privilege to Kharabaghtsis? Or, as started before, what about the disgusting and brutal beatings and prejudice Hayastantsis have been receiving in the Kharabagh army during Serge's reign as Defense Minister? Why didn't this happen during Vazgen Sarkisian's tenure?
Nonetheless, this entire discussion is pointless because the anti-Kharabaghtsi rhetoric is not what lays at the foundation of the people's distate for the regime. And there has been further polarization against Kharabaghtsis in Armenia, it started AFTER Robert Kocharian's presidency...he has done more to create animosity towards Kharabaghtsis amongst the Hayastantsi population in the last 11 years than any single individual. Did you not bother asking yourself what exactly happened from 1994 to 2008? How did the people of Armenia and Artsakh grow apart? How did we go from "Kharabaghe Merna!" (when Levon was leading the pride) to what we have today (where Kocharian is leading the hounds)?
Of course, for people like you, it's all Levon's fault and it has always been his fault. For people like me...well...we are burdened with having the unfortunate task of being thoughtful.
So now we can all see what the real agenda of dumanian is. To spread the supposed animosity and 'hate' between Hayastanci's and Karabaghtsis. It was ltp and his supporters who tried to do the same thing last year in order to create an artificial divide between the people. How low he and his supporters are that they would resort to such tactics, something the turks and other enemy nations have often failed at, but here we have one of our own trying to accomplish the task for them.
Avetis is correct, as long as we as a people listen to characters such as dumanian, the great powers will never take us seriously and will continue to push their interests on us.
Hye, Tom,
On my last visit to Haiastan I arrived in Yerevan, met many friend from USA, and in looking about, as a visitor, was proud to see the activities of the city of Yerevan, almost like being in NYCity... but my
visit was to take me almost 4 hours away, close to the city of Kapan. This ride, was sensational! I saw
my Armenia, the rocky formations, barren of peoples; the green valleys where the farms and the homes were snuggled and, all along the route, were the waters - cascadings waters, cascading falls.
Ayd bagh chooreh - soolal chooreh... all along the ride. Even at resturants, they had 'pools' filled with
fish - to be cooked/served. I stayed at a family farm... and when the fruits/berries ripened, one person climbed the tree, others together held up a large sheet, and as the tree branches were shaken, we enjoyed the ripened fruits... and the animals, the farm growing foods for the family to provide
for the winter ahead... visitors, historic sites to see. Unforgettable... too, as I enjoy reading of your own and your wife's trip to Haiastan. Truth is Tom, I look forward to reading all that which you share with us - some memories, some from the now... all enjoyed, all entertaining. Thanks. Manooshag
I'm a little puzzled as to how you came to that conclusion after what I said...
So, anybody who points to the obvious situation in Armenia regarding the "kharabaghtsis" and the gross human rights violations specifically targeting Hayastantsis in the Kharabagh army, is trying to spread "animosity" between the groups? These are simple facts...should we ignore them for the sake of not "dividing" our people or for the sake of political correctness? Are you really refuting the fact that Kharabaghtsis in Armenia are a privileged group, and that the animosity towards them started after Robert Kocharian's presidency, and that Hayastantsis are specifically targeted in the Kharabagh army?
If you notice, it is not me who started the "Kharabaghtsi" discussion, and I only brought it up in response to somebody labeling the protesters as "cult" members.
And if you had given what I said any serious thought, you would have realized that I consider talking about the discrimination Kharabaghtsis face in Armenia and Hayastantsis face in Kharabagh as "pointless" because divisions are inherently part of our identity. For various reasons, including the mountainous geography of our homeland and the fact that it has been a battlefield for major empires, making distinctions between different "types" of Armenians is as integral and as a part of our identity as is Christianity (it actually probably predates Christianity) and our language.
And I wanted to avoid this discussion because people in Armenia have gotten over it and they don't let it drag them down (unlike the Diaspora). That is why we can have a discussion about how the Kharabagh clan in Armenia operates and at the same time discuss the need to protect Artsakh and its people from Azerbaijan. It means nothing else beyond what it states. This "animosity" has always existed -- it goes back to the first time students from Stepanakert went to Yerevan and realized it was a completely different world. It also existed in 1988, people didn't suddenly FORGET -- but it didn't blind the people of what is at stake and what the times call for. This animosity existed between Western and Eastern Armenians during the genocide (even more so I would argue). It also exists between the different "factions" within the Armenian American community (I have written extensively about this for the Weekly).
Our "divisons" become a problem when one side tries to portray itself as the EXCLUSIVE victim (i.e. Western Armenians say they were not welcome in the Araratian republic -- which they weren't -- but they also never recognized the Yerevan government and didn't even consider Eastern Armenia to be the "real Armenia" [read Boghos Nubar Pasha's stuff and the fiasco at the Paris Peace Conference], or, in our case, how you are trying to portray Kharabaghtsis as the victims of "animosity" when the same could be said about Hayastantsi in Kharabagh). It is a moot point.
Are we surprised? It's just more of the same from the Turks.
Both Turish and Armenian sides are playing a game. Everybody knows that the name of that game is football for open politics. Though, I'd rather call that game pocket billiards.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
I am taken aback by Nalbandian's naivety in questioning Turkey's intent to sign the protocols but not ratify them. It's a very revealing question that underscores his inexperience in understanding the basics of tactful diplomacy.
FM should be well versed in understanding these signals BEFORE even being considered for office.
A few more things to add about this:
It allows people like AR, Avetis, and hagopn, to "explain away" events that, in reality, require some energy in order to be properly informed -- it's simple enough to understand and has the aura of truth.
Attributing the movement last year to "anti-Kharabaghtsi" cult worship allows you to de-legitimize any complaints the protesters mights have, assigns them to the role of a small "deranged" few, and offers an excuse for the authorities to rig elections, act violently, etc.
It is strange how these "anti-Kharabaghtsi" people on March 1 were protesting for a man who would be, in Hayastantsi terminology an "axpar." Isn't there animosity agaisnt axpars? It is also strange how this same "anti-Kharabaghtsi" candidate has been the most vocal advocate of making Kharabagh a part of the peace process; a long time goal of the Artsakh people. And it is also funny how the "pro-Artsakh" guys (Kocharian and Serge) support the same (or less friendly) peace process Levon favored. It is also strange how this "anti-Kharabaghtsi" candidate enjoys the support of the larger chunk of Artsakh Fedayis in Armenia. Are all those Fedayis anti-Kharabaghtsi too?
The logic goes something like this: "Kocharian is a Kharabaghtsi, Levon is not; the people of Armenia don't want Serge or Kocharian to be president because of their corrupt system of government; but Levon also had a corrupt system of government, so if they want Levon to be president, this must mean they are really protesting against Serge and Kocharian being "Kharabaghtsis" and not against the corrupt system of government."
Notice how this has the "aura of truth" and is simple enough to understand, especially when you incorporate the rhetoric of Armenian politics, which, reflecting the nature of Armenian identity, might seem "regionalistic" or "anti-whathaveyou." Of course, if one was interested in actually figuring out what happened rather then selectively picking up bits and peices of it to support pre-conceived opinions, one would have to actually invest some time.
Levon's sudden and miracolous rise to popularity is EVIDENCE OF THE FACT that the corruption in Levon's time is NOTHING LIKE the MAFIA CLAN SYSTEM the people of Armenia are subject to on a day to day basis. But not for you guys, huh? Nope -- you guys are ultimately suggesting that the people of Armenia are too stupid to figure out what is going on in their country and with their lives. They are irrational, suffering from psychological issues, and have become delusional by forgeting Levon's past. And who cares if they voted for the guy, we know best anyway, screw the elections!
Serge Sarkisian, after having won 52% of the vote, had to have people bused in from far away villages and cities surrounding Yerevan to attend a "rally" last February. The guy down the block, who only recieved 20% of the vote, had more than 20% of eligible voters physically out on the street -- and this was mostly men, forget the women who usually stayed home for safety reasons. The OSCE published three consecutive reports, each time the number of "falsified votes" went up -- until by the last one it was around 15%...God forbid what would have happened had they published a fourth report. We would have found out NOBODY's vote really counted.
You know, there are very legitimate critcisms of Levon that I would have loved to talk about last year: his privatization policies, his powerful ministries, 1996 elections, the collapse of the government from 96-97, and what happened in 1998. Instead, we have to talk about whether or not Levon is a CIA agent, whether or not he was really for the war he helped start, whether or not his Jewish wife is financing his campaign with international jewery, and whether or not he's "pro-Armenian." But if I'm going to feed thise misinformed flame that has at its core voluntary ignorance and conspiracy theories, I rather defend peaceful protestors, the winner of an election, and the guy with the better ideas.
Yergou titegh teghin Vosgi....Chem Havadar Turkin Khoskin.
Didn't Karnig Sarkissian Teach us anything thru his song???
Hell with Turkey we did without them for 95 years, and we can do without their MERCY for another 95 years !!
AMEN TO THAT Varoujan...
To end all this mysery and nightmare.. i say Armenia should declare these protocols NULL AND VOID .. stand up govt officials and put your foot down for once.. Our government is sleeping in donkey's ears.. either go forward or just stop everything on its track and retrieve from these useless protocols.. We can see that nothing is happening and will not happen until Turkey gets what they want.. so lets do the right thing.. kill the goose right now...
Ay Ay Ay.. Vonts norits Turqeri dzerqeri mech unganq??? Vonts eli?
Absolutely great project to be part of.
I pray to God to give you strength, dedication and many sponsors to complete this great work that you all are doing.
I wish I can donate $1,000 but hopefully one day.. However, I would like to send in a small gratitude and participate to this historic park...
Keep up the great work.. God's speed..
G
The African-Americans suffered for many years. They had Martin Luther King. We need a Martin Luther King and a million man march on Washington. We need our too complacent Armenian Americans to gather up together and take a page or two from the African Americans in this country; adopt the attitude that "we shall overcome"; make it painful for our elected officials to continue to deny the Genocide; make it more painful for Turkey and Azerbaijan by getting every Armenian American to get wholly involve from every aspect. Who will be our leader. Our Martin Luther King. Step forward now. We need you more than ever NOW!
Mr. Hasan Cemal has got deep and sad Armenian eyes. Peace be with Mr. Hasan Cemal.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Throughout the occupation of Armenia by the Turks when have they ever been sensitive to Armenians or anyone for that matter? I can care less about Turkish sensitivity.
Unfortunately, some Armenians are acting in UNARMENIAN way after the government of Armenia had sold the Armenian history through the Protocols of the Elders of Anatolia.
First of all i'm gonna start saying i'm kurdish. And if you want kurds to be an alley you should stop referring PKK as a guerilla group.So many of the 35000 are the kurds who died over the last 27 years.And so many families had to leave their homes and villages because of the so called freedom fighters.They were forcing to take one man from every family in villages when i was so little then my family left there luckily.Turks did wrong by not supporting the area on purpose until the 80s but PKK is a flat out terrorist organization that did most harm to my people more than anybody.Even the leader of the PKK is now all about peace.PKK is used by USA against Saddam and just a year ago USA acknowledged them as a terrorist group.(now that Saddam is gone PKK is no use for USA).And Ergenekon is just a made up by the government to weaken the army so the AKP and religious groups can do everything they want.I know how most Armenians think about the Turkish army and the Kemalist group but you cannot be more wrong.They are the voice of reason in Turkey.If it weren't for them we would be like Afghanistan or Iran by now.We are threatened by fanatic religious groups that are led by a rich dude called Fetullah Gülen. he has religious brain washing schools everywhere.And the Turkish army tries to finish this guy and also CHP (party that M.Kemal formed) is trying to take out schools of him.But this guy is uber rich and almost untouchable.Almost every police department is full of his men that are brainwashed extreme religious guys.And Ergenekon what they call is actually consists of very bright newspaper writers and professors and some CHP party supporters who want this Fethullah guys end and so they put those CHP supporting writers and professors in jail without any proof of crime.AKP the former party in charge is also very religious although not as dangerous as Fethullah Gülen but still makes me fear.And also USA is supporting AKP kinda makes me think this will bite them in the ass just like when they put Saddam in charge of Iraq
why do Armenians not want a commission to search for facts and look at the archieves.If a genocide happened it will be proven.My grandfathers village was actually an armenian village which was bought from the former owners like in 18xx by my grandgrand...parents.And there are also Armenians in parts of my family too and a couple of Turks but my father and mother are alevi-kurds.My grandmother once told me that people speculated on Armenians killing Turkish villages that led angry Turks killing Armenians randomly which caused a retaliation by Armenians from other close villages.Some also say that Kurds and Turks were so angry at the time because Armenians were not fighting on the side with Kurds and Turks against the invasion troops so it led into so much hate against each other.it caused like a civil war which the Ottoman government looked away.I understand Armenians feelings but they should support searching of the archieves and files with professional people then the truth will come.But i know that the Turkish government will never ever give any land without a war.Armenians should know that Turks are very patriotic about land.Even if the government says they did and apologize for it they will never agree on giving land because they know that millions of people would go ballistic about it and literally arm themselves and head for that place.(i'm %1000 sure about this because i live in Turkey.land is sacred for Turks.they would die for a meter square of land that even cowturds wouldn't want to stay)Let there be less hate and more love guys.Hate brings more wars we don't need that anymore
dear denis and sevan.i am a jewish scholar of armenian studies.while it is true that the israeli and american governments and establishments do not recognize the armenian genocide;the overwhelming majority of jews and armenians do fully believe in the horrific genocid in syria lebanones that befell their peoples.the exact same is true of the current armenian govt,and the establishments of armenians in syria,lebanon,jordan iraq,egypt and turkey who never support israel in the face of arab lies and vicious propaganda.that i can undeerstand as realpolitik on both sides.what is difficult to comprehend is ;why armeian scholars have never collectively sided with israel.yes,many times jewish scholars and intellectuals have always publicly supported the armeian cause as sevan has stated.
Few ,if any here online, or in the Armenian mainstream public know ,or they have conveniently "forgotten" that only about a year or so ago great Turkey anounced that they are establishing an Armenian chair in one(others too,indeed) of their most important universities, that of the highest Military academy in their capital, Ankara...
Pleae stop to think why? just to learn that unimportant language that is spoken only in Armenia ?
Indeed no.They ,their government that is, took the right decision ,that in order to begin a"THAW",especially sjuitable for their intentions to enter EU and also actually concede few, real few small "concessions" to republic of Armenia and in extension to its Diaspora,thus paving their way into EU.Also show to the entire world that they mean "business" ..However...
In their cunning-wily way.You want examples? first the Aghtamar,then the show at Hrant Dinks´then just frecentgly beginning repairs on Ani etc.,that is their Philosophy ,nay their Ottoman turkish diplomacy.Armenian language teaching at their highest military academy?think,please think.
They may soon even come and kneel at Tsitzernakapert..also as a gesture of their kindness, ced strip of land around Ani and "Aghri Dagh" itself (Mount Ararat) so that EU diplomacy plus the Anglo_Am ones will then trupmet to the world"see great Tukrey is on its way to democracy and has begun to esteem Euro-American human rights etc.,
Not only Jemal´s son but a host of others such will pop up here and there giving a hand to their osmanly,sorry, great Turkey government in beginning a new courtship with above governments plus indeed Armenian "paremids" not to say, " barzamids". Now then, what have we thought of as COUNTER actions? participatge in such conferences and try to enter into discussion with such?
To begin with the Diaspora must,yes must decide NOW!!
1. To re-organize its structures around our 100,000 strong "Professional Colleagues Associations"..Five on the scene already.Have ten more other fields of Profession colleagues do so and then Interconnect these to become the "Inter-professional Colleagues Association"s delegating 3 person such to the Borad of same(yet to be formed).
2. request our political parties to join in with their delegates and one each from our Spiritual denomination delegates in every Armenian dense community,say Boston with surrounding areass, Marseilles, Beiruti B-Aires etc.,to each Armenian VCommunity country Central Council, proceed to have -elect from these their delegates to the Supreme Council of the Diaspora, with 5 departments-
3.A .The Legal Political in Strasbourg(next to RA delegates,not exactly sitting next to them) but in same town. B . Economic depat. in Geneva, CH( with its 16 offices ea representing one Profession,(where indeed the "National Investment Trust Fund" will be established ,beginning the NUCLEUS with our6/7 magnates with huge working capital input ,say each a few hundred million dollars)
C. The Executive ,in N.Y.(next to RA delegate to U.N.).D. The Social Services and future Repatriation organizing Dept. in Moscow(near abroad country)D.The only one we have,namely the Spiritual at St.Etchmiadzin(in conjunction with the Great House of Cilicia)
All above departments in constant contact with ea other and in extension with ea community country Central Council.
Main Objective the "Social formation" will be obtained through a crystalization mode(through work-profession Type) collectivities AND SOME HUGE COLLECTIVITIS INDEED:THEN :
COMMENCE TO HAVE THE " F U N D " ON WAY..FOR WITHOUT economic Power,we cannot achieve anything.With all respect due to our present political parties and theri affiliates, they have overlooked the HUGE COLLECTIVITIES ,THAT must be tapped upon!!!!
Certainly we can they establish our COUNTER-intelligence activities AGAINST OUR ADVERSARIES IN A MUCH ADVANCED,COORDINATED FASHION.Which needs financial support indeed.And ACTUALLY BEGIN REPATRIATION ON LARGE SCALE...
for Artsakh needs to be repopulated,so does Armenia proper...
Much can be realized-achieved if we RE-STRUCTURE THE DIASPORA.I have written in this respect many a time over and still insist ON IT.If it is not to the liking of some...then present un-enviable Status Quo will persist to the satisfaction of our adversaries..
Hama-Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Dear editor,
I kindly ask you to let my message be seen in the site. I really would like to talk to you and connect with you.
Dear all,
It is a quite long message but I suggest you take your time and read.
I thought it may be interesting for you to hear the other side: a young TURK who is living in Istanbul, who is liberal and have deep interest in history. Very naturally, you have been raised with notions of brutal Turks who murdered innocent Armenians. And very naturally, you demand that it must be recognized as a "genocide" in international law; Turkish government must accept and compensate. Here is what a regular Turkish person would know and tell: In Germany, the Jewish people never formed a nationalist party (Tashnak) and formed armed militia forces to seek their independence from Germany. They were not supported by an invading Russian army and an American President (Wilson) who proposed that the ethnic communities in Germany should be liberated at the regions where they are the majority. The Jews in Germany, did not terrorize, murder, rape and steal from local German children and women at their unprotected villages (because the men were all fighting at the fronts elsewhere) so that they will flee and Jews would have majority. Armed Jewish gangs did not exploit the vast opportunity that German army has been defeated and is not present in their region any more. Jewish armed forces did not invade a major German city (i.e. Van) and claim independency. What really happened in Eastern Anatolia or Western Armenia - as you would like to call - is far from being similar to the Jewish Holocaust. On the other hand I am never reluctant to admit the following facts either: when the support behind Armenian independency movement faded, and when this time armed Armenian forces had to flee back to Yerevan; awful atrocities against local and again -unprotected- Armenian children - women were committed. I know them. And I do feel sorry. (By the way, very interestingly, you all seem to miss a simple fact: those atrocities were committed by local MUSLIM gangs-militia. Not necessarily Turkish. In fact majority of local Muslims (and still it is the case) is Kurdish. I find it quite absurd when diaspora Armenians and Kurdish seperatists seem to love each other hate Turkey together. ) The counter-actions against Armenian gangs were fierce. Very fierce indeed. Hundreds of thousands (you would say here millions, I am sure) Armenian people were exiled. They suffered a lot. They were attacked on their way to Syria, Lebanon. They have been murdered, their goods were stolen. Demography of the region changed dramatically. Local Muslims (Turks and Kurds) confiscated their houses, gardens, farms. These are true. You would like to talk about OE officials public/confidential communications to prove that it is a genocide organized by the government. I am from that region. I know that our ancestors, who were not government/army officers, who were seeking for revenge, who were taking advantage of the situation, who were what we call eshkiya (outlaws) did whatever they could. Murder, steal, rape. But it was not like: soldiers gathering the Armenians, putting them into concentration camps, committing mass-murders in an organized and dedicated way. So forgive me, but I must say that you have to wake up: your ancestors (I mean the militia) were not innocent angels neither. I am -and you must be, too - sorry for all innocent lives who suffered at both sides because of the brutal, evil gangs from the both sides. Every human life is sacred and precious. So it is really not pleasant to compare the casualties. But I know that the scale of loss in Armenian side is much much larger. This is true, too. So as a Turkish citizen, I would never accept, or let my government accept that we made a genocide. I also dislike that many Turkish people are choosing to deny everything at once. No, terrible things did happen to Armenians, innocent Armenians, which is a shame. I also hate that Armenian nationalists speak as if their ancestors were innocent angels wandering in the plains of Eastern Anatolia and Turks came to murder them. This is ridiculous. Civil War? yes, this is the case. Mass Murders? yes, this is the case. But frankly I am telling, without invading our country, without making all Turks surrender, no one can make us accept genocide and pay compensation or give land. This can be done only through war. Currently the most beneficial way is to establish normal relations with Turkey and Armenia with the current borders. Unlike you, we are not necessarily filled with hatred against Armenians. On the contrary, many Armenian citizens come to Turkey to work (illegally) and they stay at Turkish homes, baby-sitting. So once again forgive me but you have to wake up: you live in US, happily, rich... your people suffer in Armenia. Having normal relations with Turkey would help Armenia to grow. You may not like this fact, but Turkey is still the leading country in this region. The country that can make Armenia get rid of its bonds with Russia and develop economically.
Kind Regards,
The Hrant Dink Foundation is naive, and these kinds of "reconciliation" events lead Armenians down the path of utter de-politicization of the Armenian Cause.
I repeatedly told the local Armenian American media for the last two years to look into Pam Steiner's mini-TARC that she was holding semi-secretly at Harvard. She is the one that held a "reconciliation" panel with Cemal at Harvard on Monday night. The Armenian media paid NO attention to what Steiner was doing. The negligent Armenia media let their readers be blind-sided by Steiner, and I have no doubt that this will continue. Care to ask yourself why?
Armenian eyes? Cemal (Jemal) Pasha's grandson is part Macedonian Jewish, Georgian and Circassian.
The lack of progress with the protocols (i.e. likely delays with ratification) was predictable. However, I think that signing the protocols was a necessary step. Further delays with ratification will make Turkey's bluff more obvious. Turkophiles will not any more be able to claim that the recognition of the genocide would undermine reconciliation efforts if Turkey failed to promptly ratify the very protocols that establish the basis for such reconciliation.
The issue is if Armenia and Diaspora would be able to fully use this situation to either facilitate the opening of the border or exposing Turkey's bluff. This should be done quickly, relentlessly and effectively.
This article is a great inspiration to seniors! Your life isn't over at 50, stay/get in shape and live life to the fullest!
"kurdish guy" is an obvious Turkish nationalist. A real Kurd would know about Dersim 1938 in which Armenians and Kurds were killed in their thousands by troops under Ataturk's control, among other things.
Easy for the killers' descendants to preach a peace devoid of justice.
No accused criminal will plea guilty without a plea bargain. Republic of Turkey has been playing not guilty for almost a century. Furthermore, it blames the victims. If all the world recognize the validity of Armenian genocide, the Republic of Turkey will not admit. Therefore, Armenians and all others who care about their own kind must come to their senses to demand peace, security and justice in the region as well as in the in world. This is not going to happen as long as the United States and the Republic of Turkey issue joint statements that they have the same values.
Security in the region will not become realty as long as the Republic of Armenia is without Western Armenia so that can exist as a viable state.
I would like to thank you former Presidents of AIGS for your letter to Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, I am sure Mr. Erdogan is a intelligent and wise person and I don't believe he will ever recognise the Armenian Genocide because of Article Article 301 of the Turkish penal code.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan should stand and tell to his nation Republic of Turkey the truth, to speak out about his personel knowledge about what happened to the Armenians, it needs courage.
Stephen says:
"If Armenians killed any Turks, it was revenge for what the Turks did to the Armenian People."
I am sorry to say, but if Ottoman relocated Armenians from their villages, it was the revenge for what Armenians did to Turks by cooperating with Soviet Russia. I don't know whether it is written in your history books or not, but there were numerous Armenian rebellions between 1890-1916. When Ottoman fell into the WW1, Armenians support Soviet Russia !
The problem is that Armenians approach the issue with merely the Armenian sight and exclude Turkey to resolve problems with it. This is not helpful, if you really wanna do it. As someone said above, even if US president recognizes the "genocide", Turkey will never change its attitude on this issue, as long as Armenia expect some things by policy. It would just get US-Turkey relations worse, nothing more. That's why no US president recognizes the "genocide" for years and years. Wake up, they use you for your votes.
The only way to get the Republic of Turkey to recognise the Armenian Genocide and other criminal chapters of its own history (quite a few chapters actually!); and learn European, liberal, democratic/civilised values; and to stop bullying the Republic of Armenia in particular and Armenians worldwide and all its other neighbours (Cyprus, Greece, Kurds) ...
The only way to achieve all that is to DISMANTLE The Republic of Ostrich! In exactly THE SAME WAY THE NAZI STATE WAS DISMANTLED in 1945 - indeed the way the victorious allies planned to dismantle the Ottoman Empire after it was utterly defeated and surrendered to the Allied Powers in 1918.
All the evidence - including the excellent letter of former presidents of IAGAS and Mr Harutunian's letter above - indicates Turkey will continue to behave deliberately and purposefully like an ostrich for as long as it has not been dismantled by the democratic world community.
The protocols were signed October 10, 2009. This letter is dated November 3, 2009.
Why did it take so long for this "amended version of the Open letter sent in 2005" to be sent to Ankara?
Moreover, where has the IAGS been hidding all these years??? Such letters should be sent on their behalf every April 24th to not only the Turkish government, but to every government worlwide that still tows Turkey's line of denial.
Andrew, it seems you do not follow the news at all, but are ready to criticize nevertheless. The IAGS has issued several statements in recent years, and statements in the immediate aftermath of the signing of the protocols as well. One letter, for example, signed by its current president William Schabas, was released shortly after the signing of the protocols.
To Kurdish_guy.
You sound more like Turkish nationalist/islamic fundamentalist, and if you really claim to be what you are you remind of "jouhoush" of Iraq. For your information, jouhoush of Iraq were Kurdish militias hired by Saddam to fight against KDP and PUK peshmargas who annihilated jouhoush nicely, indeed.
It is not clear from the article who organized this even, which organization. What was the subject of the meeting, seminar or conference? Were there other participants? It should be writer's duty to tell us and give us details about the event. Excuse me but GP's comments are lamentable, no mastery of the language and his whole comment has no essense or continuity. AW should do a better job screening and filtering the comments.
Equating the Ottoman perpetrators deliberate act of genocide and the ensuing consequences of suffering---with ---feelings of remorse experienced by those whose diabolical empire crumbled is ludicrous. To trivialize the suffering of genocide victims, by diluting the intent of genocide in rhetoric of collective empathy is a feeble attempt to whitewash the crime of genocide.
The question analyzed here Cemal is NOT ----- how long will it take to educate Turks about the Armenian Genocide? That is strictly a Turkish government issue. It may take 10 years, it may take 50 years. It really doesn’t matter how long it takes AS LONG AS IT BEGINS. The question you should be thinking about is WHEN will the Turkish government BEGIN taking the necessary steps in educating its own public about the Armenian Genocide? We have been waiting 94 years for this process to merely BEGIN. And BEGIN means Erdogan instructing the Turkish Department of Education to include chapters about the Armenian Genocide in all Turkish history books about a shameful chapter of Turkish history. BEGIN does NOT mean debating or questioning the fact of the Armenian Genocide.
How dare you ask us to be patient when NOT ONE shred of evidence exists indicating that the Turkish government has begun this process. The Turkish government has continued to feed its people denialist venom and there is absolutely not one shred of evidence to indicate that they are taking the necessary steps to sincerely and objectively begin educating their public about the indisputable historical facts of the Armenian Genocide.
Cemal, when you begin to better understand your government's backward policies, I will begin to care more about what you have to say. Until then, organizations like "Friends of Hrant Dink" and their propagandists will remain tools for the Turkish governments continued efforts to deny the Armenian Genocide.
HELEN FEIN, ROGER W. SMITH, FRANK CHALK, JOYCE APSEL, ROBERT MELSON, ISRAEL W. CHARNY and GREGORY STANTON should accept genocide against Native American, African American and Palestinians first, before they accuse the Turkey.
They should send a open letter to US President Obama and Israel Prime Minister Olmert.
Thanks
Dear Asbet.I welcome your critique.But wish to add I do not -like many many here online or on other forums-intend or pretend to show my "mastery" of that language.It is for the Anglos,may they proceed with it and express their "hypocracies".I am fed up with their word twisting and "diplomatic maneuvres"..I f I had time I would type slower and satisfy readers who only are "interested" in Language proficiency.I am not.By the by I speak 7 ,read and write in 5..
I mainly think in Armenian.My spanish is on same level ,or a bit better than my English .I have lived near qtr,sorry quarter...century in España(Spain) for you the country of Javier Solana(another fox)preferred by the anglos.My Arme3nian ,both Western and Eastern,I´d say acceptably good.French pretty good.Persian,as well.I am not a product of the Western Hemispheric Anglo-thinking,though I attended school and college in England,London...good old London ,where only English speaking Americans fly to when they have saved enough monies to fly abroad.They have no idea how much more important culture exsists in Italy,Spain France and other Euro countries.Now!
git a load of the following please(American style)
You and others,I beg, must make out what the core of the post-writing ,article implies not think only of the errors.Yes,I do make plenty of typographical and sometimes gramatical mistakes.But my mind is set on trying to understand what such articles, symposiums and conferences are...
Again do please forgived my fast typing.I have today exerted energy(am old,near 80)to slow and type correctly.BUT I DO IMPLORE AND ASK OR REQUEST YOU AND OTHERS TO FOLLOW THE THREAD OF MY THOUGHTS-VIEWS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY EXPERIENCES I HAVE GATHERED DEALING WITH TURKISH ISSUES.I HAVE TALKED TO A FEW OF THEIR JOURNALISTS ETC.
ALSO PARTICIPATED IN ARMENIAN IMPORTANT GATHERINGS IN EUROPE MAINLY,ALSO IN THE U.S. BEEN ELECTED BY 400 PARTICIPANTS TO FIRST ARMENIAN CONGRESS IN PARIS 1979,WHERE 28 OF US WERE PRESENTING "PAPERS"ONLY 7 OF US ELECTED BY MAJORITY VOTE TO ITS EXECUTIVE BOARD.ALAS,IT WAS LACKING MECHANISM,WHICH I HAVE TRIED TO DEVELOP AND REDEVELP.PART OF IT APPEARS IN MY ABOVE POST,ALBEIT IN PRECIS FORMAT.MY LAST PLEA TO YOU AND OTHERS IS TO GET INTO THE COFRE OF THE MATTER,TRY TO GRASP ME OR OTHERS LIKE DR. HENRY ASTARJIAN WRITE,NOT ONLY PAY ATTENTION TO THE LANGUAGE FACTOR.LATTER BEING PERFECT OR QUASSI PERFECT..LIKE YOURS!!
THANK YOU FOR READING ME AND
HAMA HAIGAGANI SIRO, gaytzag palandjian( a mere soldier ,so to speak9
in our quest for ARMENIDAD-ARMENITY-NOT ARMENIANISM
some comparisons now.The spanish corect when expressing such as Comunidad(community)ARMENIDAD-Armenity..etc
E.& O.excepted
Alipasha; The issue now is the Armenian Genocide. The abovementioned respectful historians researched extensively about the Armenian Genocide that has been committed systematically by the so called Young Turks headed by Talaat Pasha. Turkey now has been in denial for 94 years and denial of such a horrendous Genocide of more than 1.5 Million Armenian civilians is the continuation of the Armenian Genocide by the so called governments of Turkey until today.
I happen to feel for just as much about the American Indians, the African Americans, the Darfurians as well as the Palestinian civilians; however the former Presidents of the IAGS Historical Commission they can speak for themselves and I am sure that if they researched about the American Indians; the African Americans, the Darfurians and the Palestinians, they would very much support their causes as well.
I can only say thanks to the very respectful Former IAGS Presidents of the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) for their extensive research and their just stand for the Armenian Genocide recognition. Thank you dear Presidents.
Sevag!
I appreciate and sympathize with your to the point comments,rather trying to educate a wolf´s
offspring.These people like I wrote above,no not the last one to Asbet,prior to that one....
The turkish government far from educating their public-people, they are setting up CHAIRS in their universities to learn not our language ONLY, but be able to penetrate amonst us-which they hve already been doing ,after the 50th ANNIVERSARY OF GENOCIDE perpetrated on us.They have sent their operatives, proior to this new wave of Cemal grandson -like,some half siding with us -for that is their method,thus trying to caress our "Paremids" not to say "Barzamid"s and by and by admit...YES, THEY WILL EVENTUALLY in their wily fashion,like I pointed out, in my previous post and even thrown in some "turkish delights",like mentioend <Mount Ararat etc.THAT IS THEIR STYLE.
Please do not take this as contrary to what you write,on the contrary it is to compliment yours!!!
The only thing that is different ,if you have noticed from last part of my post up above,is my "suggestions" to brace ourselves,in other words re-organize our STRUCTURE to be able to confront their -from now on-indirect such advances,shall I call to trap some of our well wishing compatriots,that all will be ironed out between our people and theirs.An impossibility like you write.May take more than a dozen years,even 50...
I ,personally prefer to think towards MOBILIZATION of our Diaspora.Not the way some picture haphazardly or just by rhetoric.Action is required ,mechanism is a must,for we did try in our time 30 years ago just trumpeting.That ain´t no good.Step by step organization should be the motto.
In this resepct,whether you him she like it or not the only way out is to get our "Professionals Coleagues Associations" on way.Man many thanks and gratitude to our so far acting political parties ALONE...may they go on with their objectives.bUT THEY VERY BADLY NEED SUPPORT,that cannot be obtained haphazardly.My humble input is there for the taking.Otherwise the present unenviable fragmented diaspora(s) will indeed carry on to the best of their abilities, however with very little if any real success.
Hama-Haigagagni SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Dashnaks would say that HELEN FEIN, ROGER W. SMITH, FRANK CHALK, JOYCE APSEL, ROBERT MELSON, ISRAEL W. CHARNY, and GREGORY STANTON are more Armenians than Karabakhis Sarksyan.
Why is Armenia president so much concerned about Turkish psyche?
I respectfully disagree with your opinion on this matter Taner Akcam. I thought Mr. Mouradian was quite reserved in his response to Cemel Hasan's offensive remarks.
If Mr. Hasan wanted to be effective in helping Turks reconcile their differences with Armenians he should have hosted an event for the Turkish community of Watertown or for Turkish American youth attending Harvard on better understanding Armenians. The audacity of Cemal to come all the way from Turkey and preach to Armenians about "respect", "patience" and "understanding" is just laughable really. And all this from the grandson of CUP leader Cemal Pasha. The fact that some Armenians actually atttended is even more disturbing.
These meetings truly represent the height of hypocrisy and our community should not tolerate such blatantly offensive venues.
After reading the title "...exploded in Jemal's face" I couldn't help thinking that Mr. Mouradian has done to Hasan Jemal with his pen what Stepan Dzaghigian did to his grandfather with his rifle, but from what I read here, it does not seem he deserved it... I have not read the editorial yet, though...
Armenians are not frustrated with Turkish intellectuals Dr. Ackam. Armenians are frustrated with the Turkish governments 94 year policy denying the veracity of the Armenian Genocide. Some Turkish intellectuals are increasingly becoming frustrated with the Turkish government's fabrication and sanitization of their history. Therefore, the source of frustration for both Armenians and Turkish intellectuals is with the Turkish government's wrongheaded policies of denial.
Armenians are not responsible for teaching Turkish citizenry about their history. We are responsible however, for ensuring that the truth about the Armenian Genocide is not fabricated to suit political or nationalistic agendas. Educating Turkish people about the Armenian Genocide is for honest Turkish intellectuals and the Turkish government to implement. This underscores the point that at this stage what's important is TURKISH –TURKISH DIALOGUE NOT ARMENIAN –TURKISH DIALOGUE.
When will dialogue between objective Turkish intellectuals and the Turkish government occur about Armenians and the Armenian Genocide? Notwithstanding Article 301, this is how Turks can constructively contribute to "the new civil society in Turkey" not by coming to America and telling Armenians they should be patient. Maybe people like Cemal Hasan can promote such a venue of dialogue in Turkey to help promote better understanding between the Turkish government and honest Turkish intellectuals. Taner Ackam could possibly spearhead such a conference. This is an example of Turkish-Turkish dialogue that will contribute to better understanding of Armenians in Turkey.
Armenian-Turkish dialogue becomes important and central to the harmonization between Armenians and Turks WHEN Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide and justice has been served. Only then can any genuine reconciliation through Armenian –Turkish dialogue exist.
Finally, "turkish sensitivities" should be an issue the Turkish government is responsible for addressing and managing not Armenians. After all, it is the Turkish government that has desensitized their population to the notion of the impossibility of a 'Turk committing genocide'.
If people like Cemal Hasan feel so strongly about better understanding each other let these people start by facilitating a better understanding in Turkey between the Turkish government and honest Turkish intellectuals.
If you want Turkish people - your audience, in effect - to understand real history kept from them, yes, you must respect the audience. That means listening to their fears and family stories, just as you expect them to listen to yours.
Whether those stories are real or imagined, linked to Armenians in any way or not, you cannot expect them to listen to you if yo won't listen to them.
As usual, most interesting. Two points of order. "Karasoonk" does not commemorate a year after a death, but 40 days (as in 40= Karasoon). Also, I am sure that the story about being fined in Armenia for not wearing seat belts was dreamed up after that full glass of pure oghi. If each person in that situation was fined in Armenia, it would wipe off the national budget deficit in a few weeks..
Dear Zaven,
No doubt your post above makes all the sense.But latter has to be introduced by these turkish intellectuals themselves both to their public as well as-especially-to their government.
A very tough task eh? Mr. Akcam and Hasan.Whereas you have chosen the easy way out-you think-trying it on us Armenians in Diaspora.Each ,or near each of us have suffered not only human losses,irreplacable but also rooted out of our Habitat(s) ours for millenia.First,it would seem appropriate to redress our just claims to property and riches looted,as a mere token on behalf of your government and in extension turkish people,then speak of becoming friendly and develop good neighbourly relations. In absence of this, I don´t really understand what dialogue(s) would lead us to. Excuse the phrase, "just kiss and make up" ? Do you kid?
We certainly are all for it,but first things first,as many above have pointed out.Otherwise ,old Ottoman turkish "sugar coated" diplomacy has no place in this age.We are a very Vanguard people on the international scene as you well know and cannot be sweetened even if Your government threw in "Aghri Dagh", Ani ruinds with strip of land around it just to soften us up,which no doubt and most probably is in the minds of your diplomats.They have not stopped to think that there is no buyer amongst us for such "Lokums"...
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Gokhan,
If you are going to teach history to Armenians or anyone else, try first to learn some.
1. The USSR did not exist at the outset of WWI in 1914, or when the CUP triumverate attempted to get some quick advantage over Russia by declaring war upon it on October 29, 1914, when the OE assisted the Germans in a naval engagement against Russia. Russia had a right of self defense, and it declared war on the OE for its acts the next month.
The OE brought the hell of the war down on herself, because CUP tried to get the quick advantage by seeking to help herself to the Russian-controlled Caucasus, an effort which of course failed completely at the cost of 80,000 Turkish [and quite a few Armenian,Greek and Assyrian] lives. Yet, lunatic Turkish nationalists worship the nationalist leaders who brought this calamity onto their Army. Been to Talaat's mauseleum lately? If you want to know why millions of Turks died in the war, it was because the Ottoman leaders led them into it. Ask any German. They can explain it to you. Your government never will.
2. Over a million Armenians were subjects of the Czar at the time war commenced. They served in his Army. They had no duty of loyalty to the Ottoman state, which, by the way had been conducting Genocidal pogroms and massacres for the last 30 years against their kinsmen. Whether you like or dislike it, the Russians were a formidable foe, superior to the Ottomans, but even if his Troops committed atrocities, and even if some of these were committed by advance Armenian elements, that does not justify the state slaughter of unarmed Ottoman Armenian men, women and children both in the war zone and many hundreds of miles west of it.
3. Your "civil war" thesis has been repudiated by historians everywhere, including Guenter Lewy, who is considered pro-Turkish. In his 2006 book, he quotes Turkish historian Selim Deringil with approval. Deringil wrote that claiming Armenians died in a civil war is a "travesty of history which no historian with a conscience" could accept. In fact, there are more Turkish scholars who affirm the Genocide than non Turkish scholars who deny it: Deringil, Fikret Adanir, Engin Akarli, Taner Akcam, Halil Berktay, Baskin Oran, Ahmet Ihnsel, Fatma Gocek, Yektan Turkyilmaz, and Umit Ungor for starters.
4. Your schools gave you the government line. Try reading for yourself.
Without being present I instinctively symphatize with Khatchig Mouradian’s reaction. I also have every reason to believe that Mouradian is citing Cemal correctly. I cite from Mouradian’s editorial:
Cemal spoke of Armenians and Turks eating dolma, repeated slain journalist Hrank Dink’s words “first let us respect each other’s pain” a dozen times, and said: “The Turks have endured suffering, too. There was the pain of expulsion from the Balkans, the Caucasus, and the pain they endured in Anatolia during the wars. The Kurds suffered, too. They suffered the pain of being denied their language and their very identity. I know very well that pain such as this cannot be measured or compared or equated. That would be wrong. One people’s suffering cannot be compared with another’s.”
To claim impossibility of comparison of suffering is to go too far. By all reasonable standards the suffering of the Armenians were much greater than that of the Turks in these years. I remember the AKP Aydin MP Cömez went to Yerevan in 2005 and talked to a group of Armenian intellectuals and his main message was that he was deeply troubled by what happened in 1915/16. It seems that Cemal should have done something similar. It seems that more humbleness was needed.
About the suffering of the Turks. I believe that an important aspect is missing from the words of Akcam’s fictional Armenian. The sufferings of the Turks of course cannot be brought directly into the discourse on the Armenian genocide. This is relativization. But we can ask in the following way:
If we as part of commemorating the Genocide against the Armenians also extend our focus to the Assyrians, the Yezidi, the Nestorians, the Greeks, The Kurds, shouldn’t we also extend our focus to the thousands of civilian Turks who were killed in the same period simply because they were Turks?
Պարոն Ասթարճեան,
Ձեր բոլոր գրածներուն հետ չեմ կրնար ըսել որ ամբողջովին համաձայն եմ: Խնդիրն այն է, որ լեզուները բնական երեւոյթներ են, եւ անընդհատ ազդելու եւ ազդուելու ընթացքի մէջ են: Ինծի համար հոգեհարազատ է որոշ Թրքերէն բառերու կիրառումը, որոնց հետ մեծցած եմ, օրինակի համար, եւ իմ ընտանիքիս, նոյնիսկ ազգիս մշակոյթին մաս կը կազմեն: Այն ամէնը մէկ կողմ դնելը աւելի վտանգաւոր է, իմ կարծիքով, որով հետեւ մեր պատմութեան մէկ մասը անտեսած կ'ըլլանք:
Նշեմ որ Անգլերէնով գրած էք Ձեր յօդուածը: Արդեօ՞ք կը նշանակէ որ ազգասիրութեան պակաս կայ անոր մէջ: Ուրիշ, հաւելեալ փաստեր ալ կան, որոնք կրնան Ձեր ըսածին հակառակը ցոյց տալ: Օրինակ, ինչքան գիտեմ, արդի Թրքերէնի մէջ «խաչ» նշանակելու համար "hach" բառը կը գործածեն: Եւ, ի միջի այլոց, «շուկայ» բառը հին ասորական, սեմական ակունք ունի, Արաբերէն «سوق» ("souq") բառին համապատասխան է:
Պարոն Ասթարճեան, մեր ազգին եւ մշակոյթին հզօրութիւնը բաւարար է որ դիմակայէ օտար բառերու օգտագործմանը եւ, այո, այդ բառերուն Հայերէնի վերածմանը: Մեր լեզուին հարստութիւնը չի կրնար թերագնահատուիլ: Շատերը այժմ քիչ թէ շատ կը խառնեն Արեւելահայերէնը եւ Արեւմտահայերէնը, եւ միեւնոյնժամանակ կրնան Անգլերէն եւ ուրիշ լեզուներ ալ գործածել առանց որեւէ խնդրի: Մէկը միւսին չի խանգարեր, իմ կարծիքով:
Baron Astarjian,
I cannot say I completely agree with everything that you have written. The fact is that languages are natural phenomena, and are always influencing or being influenced. I find it very natural to use certain Turkish words, for example, those with which I grew up, and I would say they form part of the culture of my family, and even my nation. To brush it all aside is more dangerous, in my opinion, as that would mean ignoring a facet of our history.
Let me point out that your article is in English. Is there anything less-than-patriotic about that? There are other facts that could be taken into account which would demonstrate the opposite of what you state. For example, as far as I know, Modern Turkish uses the word "hach" to mean "cross" (clearly taken from the Armenian, "khach"). And, by the way, the word "shouga" has Assyrian, Semitic roots, akin to the Arabic "souq".
Baron Astarjian, our nation and culture is strong enough to withstand the use of foreign words and, indeed, to render them Armenian. The richness of our language cannot be underestimated. Many nowadays tend to mix Eastern and Western Armenian, and, at the same time, have no trouble with English or other languages. One does not get in the way of the other, in my opinion.
Perhaps you will pay closer attention to the examples that you yourself choosen to use, that being the Jews. The Jews have survived all these years by adapting to their surroundings, and not hacking off part of their population for not meeting up to a segment's version of what should be.
The Yiddish language itself is a combination of several languages including that of the people that they were in the midst of, the Ethopian Jews are actually "black", the main point is perhaps that we all need each other, My grandparents came to this country as a result of the slaughter of their relatives, kiddnaping of their youth, conpfiscation of their properties, rape of their women, etc.. they are the ones who brought this music, food, and words that you, who have not actually lived through any of this, somehow feel qualified to critisize. If they could separate the evil deeds of those Turks from the food names, music, expressions, etc..then it should not be too difficult for you to do the same.
Also, let us not forget, many good Turks are responsible for saving lives of Armenians while others were being killed by other Turks, we did live along side of these people for centuries, do you really think that we could remain so untouched by the dominating culture of that area and not share common expressions, words, food names etc ??. We need to be more realistic and stop this divisive bickering, it is absolutely counterproductive and serves to further divide an already fragmented people. -Chow
In response to Henry Astarjian's views in "Is our language dead?", maybe he should start with himself first and look at the Turkish origin of his last name. "Astar" means "lining" - why doesn't he find the Armenian equivalent and change it??? Or does he even know that it is Turkish????
He needs to realize that the Armenian community is culturally diverse in the U.S. I was wondering how long it would take for another Armenian to pop up and represent himself as somewhat more Armenian than me. I happen to like Turkish songs - does that make me less of an Armenian? Yes, I, too attended many of the "Kefs" in Connecticut and I do not apologize for it. The difference is that I do not judge others because of their taste in music nor in their use of Turkish words. Lighten up and do not despair - we still have those "absolutely atrocious westernized Armenian videos from Yerevan. Who am I to decide what you should like???????
I am a bit disappointed in the tone of your editorial. I attended the first lecture at Harvard the previous evening.I walked away away with a feeling that it was a sincere effort. Did I agree with
everything he said? No,but that was not my expectation. If we are ever going to make progress
in pursuit of our cause, it is in our interest to have an understanding of the thinking in Turkey and to have an opportunity at dialogue. That's exactly what I experienced. As Armenians, we all have
opinions of Turks( mostly negative); yet ridiculously few of us, except for diplomats, scholars and a few musicians, have had any real contact with Turks for generations. We need to move on from the old stereotypes and anger that has been the hallmark of our public perception. Turkish is slowly changing and we have to whether we want to encourage that change and be the benficiary.... or whether we want to be stuck in hatred. The latter is inconsistent with our faith and does not serve our cause. I can listen to Cemal and the Turks that spoke(many of whom were young and enlightened)
and still a passion for cause. Hrant Dink is rightfully revered to. in our community as a visionary. Let's honor his memory by considering the opportunities.
Henry, I beleive that you make valid pointson the shallow definition that many Armenians have today(and for many years for that matter) on what constitutes Armenian behavior. I do believe that
we tend to look at our current situation with a finer lense; since the data is more available. I am certain that there have been many Armenians over the generations with a superficial identity with their heritage and we have endured. The Turkish influence is an interesting issue. Our culture
has been influenced by countless parties over the centuries; due in large part to their political and territorial domination. I tend to think that we are overly sensitive to the Turkish influence because of our unfinished agenda. But really do we have the same passion for the Russian and Persian influence in the east or is that just because they're not Turks and most of the U.S. was settled by Western Armenians? How about the impactof the French and Crusaders on Cilicia?
In fact today, with the visibility of "eastern and western " Armenian, I hear more American-
Armenians speak with a nostolgic view of their Turkish-Armenian born grandparents and the early influences on their identity from the Ottoman past. It is a reality of our historial evolution. I think the issue of our cultural direction has been very influenced by the dominance of the Genocide in our dispersed society. It has been our focus and at the heart of our community at least since the
"re-awakening" in 1965. Our culture has evolved for centuries and currently we are feeling the effect of assimilation. If I meet an Armenian with a pure heart towards his or her people speaks some Turkified words, then I have hope because our destiny has always been determined by our heart.
Let's talk politics and Armenian demands, not psychological stuff.
What the Turkish government seeks, and what the US and probably even Russia seek, is that we Armenians forget what our political demands are and, instead, get all caught up in reconciliation mumbo jumbo, and even genocide research.
I would like to thank Mr. Mouradian for printing articles and op-eds that he disagrees with. The Weekly is becoming a breathe of fresh air for our community.
As to what Dr. Akçam said...the truth is that the Turkish government, Turkish society, and Turkish intellectuals have sunk so low, that Armenians have no choice but to be more open minded, more forgiving, more benevolent, and more mature. It is extremely discouraging to see such intelligent people like Cemal getting is so wrong on such an obvious matter.
Essentially, Akçam is telling the Armenians that Turkish society and academia is so lost and destructive, that Armenians have to "trick" them with esoteric language about "understanding each other's pain" before we can even begin to talk about 1915.
Before you can make a child understand that he shouldn't cry over not getting his favorite candy...you have to give him the candy to make him stop crying. Otherwise, he won't listen. No?
I really don't understand why the Armenian community feels that it has to swallow condescending comments time and time again from "good-natured" leftist Turks who are trying to build civil society (which doesn't concern Armenians) and are willing to sit down with Armenians to chat for whatever reasons they have (none of which I am convinced are genuine with regards to the Armenian people). Both Akcan and Cemal should not be trusted as being sincere towards the Armenian people and their suffering. They both have their own agendas to follow. "Dialogue" with Armenians is a tool for them to advance those agendas, nothing more. It never interested me that Akcam or any other Turkish intellectual for that matter personally recognized the Armenian Genocide, and I never understood the bizarre fascination that some Armenians foster for such people.
Armenians need to stop being duped time and time again. It is not Armenians who should be reaching out to the Turks for dialogue, rather it has always been Turkish society that should have swallowed its pride and demanded to come to terms, finally, with its black past. Seems no matter where you are--Armenia or Watertown--you will always find naive people willing to entertain Turkish "leftist" intellectuals. Armenians it seems will not ever learn to be weary of supposed Turkish do-gooders. Nine-four years of denial have been endured by the Armenian nation, and lately to add to that misery, mockery and rebuke disguised as sympathy and goodwill.
What is the point of dialogue with the Turks, what good can come out of it? I really don't see anything of benefit for the Armenian people. Until Turkish society makes demands of its government to accept the Armenian Genocide-- which "sadly" will never happen--there's really no reason to outreach to leftist Turkish intellectuals who again, are simply advancing their own agendas by demonstrating their hollow willingness with the Armenian community.
Turkish civil society as it stands today does not care about the plight of the Armenians. Let's understand this once and for all, and stop fooling ourselves.
In one way or another, after 1000 years of cohabitation, intermarriage, friendship and war, we really are all variations on the same Turkish-Armenian theme. Everyone we know is a Kazanjian, Sabounjian, Tufenkjian, Basturmajian, Muradian, Kilijian, Hamamjian, Chakmakjian, Deukmejian, Deirmenjian, Boyadjian, Chorbajian, Helvajian, Kahvejian, etc, etc, etc. , with little knowledge of their true origin. Let's face it, most of us in the US grew up eating pilaf, pekmez, tuz, shakar, batlijan, kebab, isot, biber, patates, midiya, bamiya, dolma, yalanchi cooked in a tangire and kept in the buzluk, and that night, slept under a yorgan that came out of the sunduk, and the next morning might have used a kesa or peshkir in the tub. Sorry, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that...our ancestors did not come from either Yerevan or Beirut, they came from Harput, Malatya, Bitlis, Bursa or Bolis. Unlike our Rusa-Hai, Libana-Hai or Barska-Hai counterparts, who incorporate many Russian, Arabic or Farsi loan words, lots of us use Turkish. So what? Get over it and get used to it. It's a part of our history, and an important one, at that. At the very least, it makes travelling in Turkey alot more fun and much easier, too.
Kudos to Mr. Mouradian for publishing his editorial and Dr. Akcam's piece.
I too think Khatchig's editorial was a measured response to the same old trite propaganda. I also advocate breaking free from our slavish adherence to any attributions by Turkish intellectuals about Ankara's continued denial of the Armenian Genocide.
Yes, Turkish intellectuals are an incredible point of leverage in Turkish society to help broaden minds and yes, historians like Dr. Akcam are much appreciated and valued for their refreshingly accurate and honest writings about the Armenian Genocide. However, let's remember this is thier job as historians. These hisotrians are not doing Armenians any favors by accuratley and honestly recounting the truth about their history. This is what historians do for a living.
In this articles second paragraph, Dr. Ackam writes that Khatchig has been "struggling for years to promote Armenian-Turkish dialogue and has tried mightily to get voices of critical Turks to the ears of Armenians."
How can Khatchig or anyone else promote Armenian/Turkish dialogue when there is no Turkish/Turkish dialogue? This doesn't make sense. Change is desperately needed in Turkish society. That's a Turkish problem not an Armenian problem. I tend to agree with some of the sentiments of Christian, Kevork, Zaven and Henry abo0ve in that good natured Turks, like Dr. Akcam, that are trying to build a new civil society should direct the voices of critical Turks to the ears of their revisionist Turkish government not Armenians.
I take it few here onlne follow the daily news emanating from RA or other Int´l sources-rather few this one though..-Latest has it ,as Harut Sassounian today explained,the Turkish side is not responding...they have according to him, intentionally put off their Parliamnet´s ratification of the protocols.Again ,as he mentioned ,according to the the wordingin protocls,they would do so "In a timely" fashion.And the "latest",today has it that Mr. Aliev has reiterated his "demand",that of withdrawal of Armenian troops ? from NK Artsakh.Fact is with support from great Turkey (Mr.Erdogan´s assurance to them ,on his lst visit recently) that they would not do so unless NK Artsakh goes back under Azerbaijan rule...
I do trust Mr. Akcam and/or Mr. Hasan Jemal follow the actual role played on bilateral give and take scenario by Azeri president, on behalf of republic of Turkey.That is ,instead of intervening to calm down Mr. Aliev´s belicose rhetoric(which he did mention again today) which clearly stated that only other solution to "conflict" is through force....
Let us hope that above two gentleman will pursuade both R.of Turkey and Azerbaijan to be more compromising....
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag Palandjian
I would beg to differ Mr. Karekin,
First of all, people from Yerevan are not "Rusa-Hai" Armenians.
Proper Armenian, the way you speak with a stranger, on TV, and the way you write, does not have "loan words" from Russian or Arabic. Armenia and Lebanon have had state structures that have been able to reinforce the proper Armenian through schools and other education.
Other Armenians have had to fend for themselves, and, although have done a brilliant job considering the odds they have faced -- their Armenian cannot compare to Lebanese or Hayastantsi Armenian. The Yerevantsi and Beirutsi Armenian has loan words only in terms of slang and day to day speaking -- proper Armenian remains relatively...well...proper. The same cannot be said of Armenians from other places.
It's almost getting so that we Armenians are relying on various Turks to make our case for us. Naturally, we are going to be very disappointed in the results. If the Armenian Cause is simply a matter of getting Armenians and Turks together to discuss history and expecting the Turks to acknowledge the Genocide, then count me out. But I don't think that IS what the Cause is about.
Dear Dr. Akcam - Your words have inspired a great number of people to respond. I agree that we that we have to be patient for a civil society in Turkey to reach critical mass in it's evolution towards open dialogue about the armenian genocide. From book publications and news postings I can already see it begining to happen. There is a great difference between now and 1996 when I first read Survival of a Nation by Christopher J. Walker and had trouble going to sleep at night. And yet we remain caught up in this nightmare, which despite, flares of hope and the increasing global awareness in the internet age, seems like it will never go away. You are one of those flares of hope. Some people say you have your own agenda. Obviously! But whether you're a seeker of truth, or have some quirky astrological component that dicates that you must challenge authority or great odds, I believe that you love your country, you want to do what's right for your country and enjoy your native pride in good conscience. You too were born a "soldier" and you want to defend the Turkish Repbulic - against whatever, perhaps it's wrongheadedness. Here you are pited against another 60 000 000 000 Turkish soldiers who since birth have been equally inculcated to defend the Republic against anything potentially trecherous - like the Armenian Diaspora. The German Wall came down, Antarctica is melting. Let's hope vigourous Turkish-Turkish dialogue gets underway on armenian issues. In the meantime I appreciate and admire the work you are doing.
For once I agree with Henry.
And Karekin brought up something very interesting when he said "At the very least, it makes travelling in Turkey alot more fun and much easier, too."
This may be what Astarjian was getting at, too many Armenians have a connection with turkey, such as visiting it or thinking of it as their homeland, instead of the modern Armenia we have now. There is no excuse to travel to turkey on a regular basis but not do so to Armenia. I am not saying you fall into this category Karekin as I don't know anything about you other than the little bit you wrote above. But for those who are in that category, I say shame on you!
I attended the Monday night Harvard University’s presentation for this matter. I wish the camera had focused on the Turks in the audience to record their facial expressions and LACK of applause (to note their temperament) they were very interesting to watch. Armenians and Turks do know each other apart.
We Armenians have been duped before and to subject ourselves to any similar possibility in a modern-day ruse (without my sounding too distrustful) would be disappointingly naïve (to be put mildly).
With all due respect, that Taner Akcam has replaced an Armenian in a notable academic position at Clark University (while recognizing and respecting who's operating the program) can benefit or hinder Armenian interests.
Here’s an idea for a way to get past it. Let Turkish intellectuals talk to a Turkish audience in Turkey. Generally the Turks don’t like hearing about the Armenian Genocide even from their own as Hrant Dink’s assassination proves. I greatly doubt it to be beneficial or palatable for Turks to hear more on this from Armenians with any sense of trust; it would be more worthwhile and hopefully believable to get this information from Turks for whom they may still have a degree of distrust for even broaching the issue.
Guido...without being unduly critical, in your comment you never failed to capitalize all Turkish references yet were less respectful on the majority of Armenian references - that paints its own picture!
I agree with Dr. Akcam. I thought that the expressed frustration against Dr. Hasan Cemal was premature to say the least. I recently befriended a young Turkish lady, who knew about the Armenians, but swore to me that she did not know about the Genocide a few years back. She told me that generations of Turks grew up knowing only some bits and pieces about the Genocide. How could she? The Turkish government knew, but the Turkish population were left in the dark. Their history books do not mention the massacres that ended up with the Genocide. When we talk about the Turkish people (excluding the Turkish government), we need to take small, gentle but firm steps, and not slam them with a ten ton truck. After all, Dr. Hasan Cemal, being the grandson of Cemal Pasha, had the courage of extending his hand to us, the least we could do is meet him halfaway and start our journey towards justice, peace and eventual friendship.
Mike Sinan
P.S.: Thank you Dr. Akcam you truely are a hero for millions of Armenians worldwide.
I'm very sorry, but travelling to find and explore your ancestor's roots, see where they lived and how they lived is nothing shameful. In fact, it is enlightening and educational. If your family originates in Turkey, you are diminished by not exploring those origins, which are, in fact, the original Armenian homeland. The problem is, too many diasporan Armenians have turned their backs on historic Armenia, and the loss of understanding is evident. Let's be honest, in 1914, there were more Armenians in most Anatolian cities than in Yerevan. That is nothing to be shameful about. It's part of history. Our families lived in Anatolia for hundreds and hundreds of years. Why deny it or pretend it did not exist? That's exactly what the ultranationalists in Turkey want.
Hye, when those who commit Genocides are not to pay for their crimes - and the world has not chosen to join together to pursue such bullies, more Genocides will follow... And why not?
They take all they want, lands, humans, destroy cultures, and more... Genociders have won above the civilized nations of the world... and why not? Who steps forward to stop the despots? When shall a Turkey return the lands and more - my grandparents and their children, whom I never
knew - slaughtered by the Turk who is unrepentant - even brazen before the world. Hence
Genocides will continue - whenever, wherever, by whomever... And why not? Who is there to stop
Genocides - and bullies continue - unabated and unafraid of the rest of the world's opinions. Why not?
Manooshag
Armenians and Turks are two different animals. Our values are different. In order to make headway the Armenians need to discard our understanding of Turks from an Armenian's point of view. The Armenians need to understand Turkish mentality and motivation which is totally different. Turks will never have introspection, apathy or "come to terms". That's not who or what they are. The Turks are ultra opportunists that still have a burning need for a "master race" identity. They not only believe that they couldn't have perpetrated a genocide but if they did, it was somehow justified. It was their "right". And to them everyone else just needs to understand their justification, their pain, their motivation, because after all, only the "master races'" sensitivities are the most important.......Turks only understand power and the big stick. That is why they have always befriended anyone with power and anyone that can provide an opportunity for them. That's all that motivates a Turk. When and only when the opportunity to recognize the reality of the Armenian genocide is greater then their denial, that is when the Turks will "come to terms".
I attended the Harvard session and have spoken with individuals who attended the followingevening at the ACEC. There is no doubt that the content and reaction different at each venue. Perhaps HasanCemal was too sensitive to the largely Armenian audience on Tuesday. I believe that Taner Akcam's explanation is reasonable.
What has my attention is the overly critical views expressed concerning the intentions of Hasan
Cemal. Who am I or anyone else to challenge his intentions or motivations. We Armenians have largely negative views of anything Turkish. When you consider the importance of our unfinished
political agenda, this is very shallow and ineffective behavior. We are convinced that our cause and that the mere articulation of our position should be enough to convince anyone...even Turks. We have a path of increasing frustration using the same methods and the Turks have continued their strategy of denial. That is not the game of global politics. Moral and historical truth is no guarantee. Turkey will deal with the Genocide when it is in their interests. Those "interests" are dynamic and may emerge as the result of external factors( i.e EU membership) or internal( the enlightenment of Turkish society). How can we expect to influence the latter with limited knowledge
and contact with the Turkish people. It is in our intereststosupport and enable civil society efforts in Turkey.
On Monday evening, I had several questions to ask Mr. Cemal,but decided to refrain from speaking. I wanted to hear from the Turks in attendance and listen. The highlight for me was when a young Turkish man asked a question that was consistent with the denial position and he was responded to quite appropriately by Taner Akcam and Hasan Cemal. It was a gratifying moment to hear two Turks speak to another Turkish man on this issue. In a small way , it gave me hope and convinced me that their courageous efforts deserved our respect and attention. They spoke with intelligence,conviction and encouaged him to move beyound denial. Taner spoke clearly to him
about the fact that Turkey has not acknowledged it as a crime. Hasan asked him to open his heart to learning about what happened in 1915. It was an emotional moment for me. I wish to thank them for their commitment to reconciliation through the truthful dialogue.
When we challenge the intentions of something that can clearly benefit us, I also am saddened. Unless, of course,we think that we have nothing to learn. In the pursuit of justice, there is no room for displaced anger and hatred. Taner Akcam has made significant contributions to Armenians and Turks. He and Hasan represent an approach that is and will continue to bear fruit...
The academic and journalistic communities are the catalysts for dialogue, understanding and
eventually action. Who in our community would have predicted a conference on the Genocide and the Adana massacres would take place in Turkey.
I understand the impact of frustration. As a second generation Armenian born in America, the genocide has defined who we are, but remained unacknowledged by the only other party that matters...Turkey.
I applaud the efforts to increase understanding. When I heard Hasan Cemal talk about Armenians understanding the pain of Turks, I was not offended . He was simply helping us to understand something that defines them. He was not blaming us or lowering the impact of the Genocide. Our repeating our mantra on the Genocide will not convince Turkey. They will change as the internal and external factors become in "their interests" We can choose to help this process or remain angry.
I believe this is an honorable endeavor.
It is true that many Turks did not learn about the Armenian genocide in their schools, and only in the past 30 years have been hearing more about it. (Yes, 30 years, not 10 years; they read newspaper articles about the genocide, do they not?).
But then, these same Turks certainly know about the dire ongoing situation of the millions of Kurds in Turkey and yet that does not seem to have engendered enough concern among them to make a big difference. The war against Kurds goes on, after all.
If there were still Armenians in "eastern Turkey" today, Turkey would have murdered, deported and raped them all, just as in 1915. How? Easy: Turkey could at any time have declared an "emergency" of some type just like it did in 1915 (a rebellion (like with the Kurds currently), the Armenian war with Karabagh, or anything at all) and the genocide would be happening all over again. Nobody would stop Turkey from doing it.
Turkey has not really changed. This is a myth created by liberal ArmenianAmerican academicians - the ones you see on reconciliation panels - who lack historical perspective and want to think the best of Turkey. They think that when Turkey makes even the slightest change, that we're all supposed to swoon and cheer.
Professor Akcam,
Mr. Hasan may be better served on this issue (Armenian genocide) with Turkish intellectuals, student populations, and the general public. They need to move toward acceptance of history. It's clear the Government imposed denial of genocide recognition has it's lasting effects on Turkish society as well as the victims.
In many ways Armenians are closest to this issue, freedom to educate ourselves, and direct accounts of the attrocities from our family, no laws against discussion of the genocide.
Maybe if we had the luxury of the fruits of our population i.e. intellectuals, we could better serve this discussion hense the Turkish Government's calculated result we are experiencing, the 1915 genocide of Armenians.
Your the perfect example of the challenges this issue faces. When we get more Professors like yourself it may likely help all sides resolve this in a just way.
We thank you for your tireless efforts on this issue~
Fresno, CA
Taner, I appreciate what you are doing here, it is much needed, and as we see, not always appreciated.
The dialog is of course in it's early stages, even after all these years. We need to continue, and I completely agree that there needs to be a focus on taking Armenians to Turkey, to speak to audiences there. Armenians of course appreciate hearing a Turkish intellectual openly acknowledge the genocide, since it gives them hope for the day when the entire society accepts it, but more important is as you said, for the society in Turkey to be exposed to Armenians from abroad who have a real story to tell. Turks who have probably never heard an Armenian speak, or address this issue. Turks who have often felt on the defensive, can perhaps for the first time imagine themselves in the others shoes, and realize they are not fun shoes to be in.
The positive changes in the openness of Turkish society are coming quickly, and much of this I attribute to the requirements of E.U. entry. I have heard the Turkish advice that we shouldn't push too hard, or that the pursuit of recognition will result in a backlash among nationalists in Turkey. I cannot disagree more. Perhaps it angers nationalists, makes them more violent or protectionist, but keeping silent, or quietly waiting are not only not options due to the impossibility for the Diaspora to imagine slowing down their efforts, but because these efforts have accomplished an incredible change in Turkey itself. I do not believe for one moment that if the Diaspora had not raised the subject again and again, in the United States, in the European Union, and all over the world, that Turkey would allow nearly the kind of dialog you see going on in Turkey today.
Many Turks who suspect or know there was a genocide feel a shame for it, and many of those have transferred that shame into a hatred of the victims and even more-so a hatred of the victims' descendants, who remind them of this shame. When Turkey finally apologizes - and I am convinced the day is coming sooner than we think - and some amends have been made, that shame can be put behind once and for all, like in Germany. Armenians can then finally focus on the actual loss they experienced, rather than have to be constantly reminded that the injustice continues to this day. It will finally allow a new chapter to begin in our histories.
I'd also like to share a op/ed piece from the Turkish site Gazetem.net which I find to be a very simple, and exceptionally powerful piece, which I wish every Turks who would deny the genocide would read, entitled "Would you wish to be an Armenian in 1915?"...
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Would_you_wish_to_be_an_Armenian_in_1915%3F
A BIT OF GOOD NEWS: Today´s latest on RA H1 T.V. some Turkish newspapers or media have scolded Mr. Aliev-some alleviation for us atg last-that latter´s belicose rhetoric is tantamount to he being either sick or "Himar" ,crazy-mad...when he ought to know that in case of declaring war on RA the Russian Federation,or the 5 nation ex-soviet states would jointly defend RA...
None of which favour war in the Caucases ,but they wish that Azerbaijan would follow a peacefull settlement of the Nk conflict. It seems -like many Armenians know quite well-that is the only language-unfortunately- that some in Turkey understand,i.e., the power of force or show of same.
However, you never know,they may yet think otherwise.After all , a few leftist orDr. Akcam -Hasan-like people " no pintan nada" means they don´t paint nothing(important,I´d add).It is the great Turkish government that decides what is to be done.Hopefully though,some knowledgeable persons in their government begin to realize that the present world overall situation does not approve such tendencies, some probably may pursuade the other tough- stance ones to also act accordingly. No state-nation desires further military actions in that zone-this was also hinted at in the broadcast-especially in a region oil rich and profitable- to those surrounding it.There is much to be said in this respect,but all depends again on the KNOWLEDGEABLE people in governments of the world, who should try harder to pursuade the militarists to calm down and follow their stance.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Karekin:
I see you may have misunderstood my point. So here it is again, if an Armenian visits turkey more often than Armenia, or has never been to Armenia yet visits turkey, that is a shame and I would say disgrace. If one goes to turkey because some part of his family lived there prior to the Genocide, that is understandable, one should try to connect with his roots. Nowhere did I say Western Armenia aka eastern turkey wasn't Armenian, but for now the only Armenia we have is the roughly 10% of our historic lands which goes by the name of the Republic of Armenia. Out lost/occupied lands are not coming back anytime soon, so why don't we collectively work toward improving what we do have and possibly when the time is right regain the remaining parts of our rightful lands.
I feel compelled to chime in.
While I can't claim the honor of having him as a friend, I've met Taner Akcam twice, if memory serves me. Both times in LA. I had posed a question to him the first time, and asked him if he still held to his answer the second time we met. The answer was yes.
The answer in question? He advised me/Armenians, that if we raised the issue of lands (and I have taken that to include reparations), then we would never get anywhere because the Turkish side would tune us out.
This representation is much akin to the issues over which Hasan Cemal stumbled by Akcam's own assessment. So he too must reconsider what he says, when , to whom, and how.
This all comes down to what has been stated in various ways in the previous postings. It's not my/Armenians' problem, doing, or causation that Turkish society and state are a shambles. Since Hrant Dink seems popular to cite, I'll do it too. Wasn't he the one who said something to the effect of, "I know my history. It was Genocide. You are the one that needs to elarn yours." It becomes relevant to this side of the divide only secondarily, out of a chronological/developmental necessity-- the growing up process Turkey is going through. so please, spare me the requests for sensitivity until I've received it and the century's worth of salt-on-the-wound has been at least partially attenuated.
I'm happy to assist in whatever Turks need to go through what will probably take two generations to achieve, but again, spare me the conditionality.
Also, consider that we, Armenians, and particularly the ARF, helped with the short-lived democratization of the Ottoman Empire. Then, we also saved the leeadership of the CUP during the counter-revolution, only to have the very same people become the organizers of our slaughter. These were the progressive forces. I've been related an anecdote dating to either the 1960s or 1970s (not sure of the date) by the late Sarkis Zeitlian. This time in France, young Armenians wanted to work with Turks on university campuses. They issued some statement, only to be confronted by silence, the absence of a corresponding issuance from the Turkish side. And now the utterly duplicitous "Protocols". You've got to admit, the blows to the ability to trust our counterparts on the Turkish side are continuous. It makes it very hard to trust even those on the political left who generally tend to be open minded. now add the genealogical baggage Hasan Cemal carries and it should be plainf to see why any Armenian would be EXTREMELY leery of his remarks.
Finally, on a very minor note regarding typographically based respect , metioned in another post. I apologize for using spellings that in English do not truly represent the names of the Turkish participants in this matter. I do so only for the sake of consitency.
I don't understand why we are adamantly pushing the issues of our ancestral Armenian lands in current day Turkey. These lands have been occupied/inhabited by 20 million strong Turks/Kurds. There are maybe 100-500 Islamized Armenians left on these lands. So, asking Turkey to return these lands back to us not only does not make sense, but it defies logic and breeds only more hatred and mistrust between Armenians and Turks. Heck, we have a small Armenia, and 77% of those living in our small motherland want to emigrate. I do, however understand that we are using the "land" issue not to get our ancestral lands back, but to use it as some kind of a leverage against Turkey.
The reality is as follows: Armenia is a landlocked country, surrounded on all sides by not so friendly countries. Next, Turks have the secret weapon, the almighty oil, and almost all superpowers are interested in Turkish oil. Our apples, pomegranates, grapes and wines, do not power the Western/Eastern economies, oil does. What Armenia has to do is make a bad situation a little bit better and shall I say, "palatable" for the Western/Eastern powers and to Turkey. We need more righteous Turks like Dr. Akcam and many others good Turks. Here we are pushing Turkey to recognize and accept its complicity in the Genocide, and then parallel to, we are requesting the return of 100,000 square km+ of lands that are overwhelmingly inhabited by Turks and Kurds.
The Genocide did happen, besides the 1.5 million of my peoples, about 1200 Sinans were massacred in Istanbul alone, and with the grace of God, we have come back asking for justice. We need to appreciate some Turks, who under constant threat of bodily harm and death, have come out and steadfastly challenged the conscience of all Turks. I salute all these righteous Turks. I rather have Dr. Akcam as president of Armenia, then all (3) former/current presidents who brought absolutely nothing but hooliganism and oligarchism plus a smidgen of poverty for the majority of Armenians.
Thanks so much for this synopsis of the conference on the Asia Minor Catastrophe. I am putting a link to this article on both my Greek genealogy website and blog. This is a very important subject and one that is of great interest to my readers.
Georgia Keilman nee Stratigakos
http://HellenicGenealogyGeek.com
http://hellenicgenealogygeek.blogspot.com
I also don't agree with "land reperations." It is absurd for Armenia to think that we are somehow going to coherce the 4th most powerful nation in NATO and the 8th most powerful army in the world to willingly cede lands. If they ever do so, it will happen in a military conflict -- one that does not take into account international law, treaties, or "historical rights." Therefore, any discussion about getting "land back" is empy rhetoric.
Especially when you consider how most Diaspora Armenians can't even live in Armenia (or Artsakh) -- let alone with the millions of Muslims that live there now.
AR, would you be so kind as to email me your name? You seem like an interesting person. Do you live in the NY area?
Ok gentleman, how about a modified hypothetical from the original:
Hitler's grandson X, a vociferous advocate for free speech currently residing in Germany, was invited to America by a fringe Jewish organization to give a talk to Jews about better understanding and respecting President Mahmoud Amadinajad's denial of the Holocaust. X advised his Jewish audience that they should be patient as it would take time to educate President Amadinajad and some elements of Iranian society about the reality of the Holocaust. He also advised Jews to be mindful of talking about the Holocaust because it may rub the President the wrong way and all efforts to educate him on this crime would be in vain. X finally advised his audience to "respect each others pain" as Iranians themselves were also killed around that same time.
Would you be caught dead at this event?
I have no problem at all supporting today's Armenia or the Armenians living there, that's a very good thing. However, culturally and even linguistically, it can be somewhat foreign to Anatolian Armenians. If Armenians really care about their culture and heritage (which is mostly talk, not action), they should also know that even the inventor of the Armenian alphabet was from Anatolia (Mush region). People complain about how Turkey treats historic Armenian sites, but there are plenty of collapsed and destroyed ancient churches and vanks all over Armenia as well, many in remote locations so they will never be restored. And, Yerevan has very little of its historic architecture left at all. So, you may disparage Turkey and for good reasons, but there are several dozens of operating Armenian churches in Istanbul alone? Most are open every day, with doors unlocked, and never have a problem. So, while today's Armenia is important, it is equally important not to forget where the vast majority of diasporan Armenians come from....the other 90% of historic Armenia. To forget about that is a true shame, no matter who has control of it.
So help me understand. What was the function of the Armenian "Scholar" on the panel. He would make a good stand-in as a sympathetic Turkish scholar, one-upping Cemal...
i'm not a Turkish nationalist(i'm kurdish but that doesn't define who i am which is a human being)
i'm not a islamic fundamentalist. i don't believe in religon and when it comes to god i'm agnostic.What i told before you may not agree or even deny but for the last 10-15 years that's what's happening in Turkey.And i'm not a jouhoush either.Stop labeling people just because they tell you something you may not like to hear it's just as bad as racism.
Dear Manooshag jan; I couldn't agree with you more. Indeed if the major powers of today such as Russia, the USA, France and Britain are openly agreeing with the illegal written protocols and siding wholeheartedly with the denialist Genocidal Turkey who has been denying the Armenian Genocide for more than 94 years; what is there to say other than they are openly being on the side of the belligerent country (Turkey). After Turkey annihilating more than 1.5 Million Armenians and stealing Armenian historical lands, not wanting to pay any reparations and now the world's civilized nations are pressuring Armenia's president with illegal protocols that are similar in nature of the illegal Kars Treaty to agreeing Turkey's stolen lands from us and calling them their territory, why would Turkey repent and come to their senses? The rest of the world sees all these unjustices and the murderers of the world will come forth and do their heinous deeds as they know that they will go unpunished. After all, the so called civilized nations that are in power today are closing their eyes to the Armenian Genocide's recognition and to the Darfurians. The immorality that is reining in today's super powers is not right. My own grandparents and all my relatives which I haven't seen them as well were viciously and barbarically murdered by the Turkish government from 1915 through 1923. Today the super powers that claim to be democratic and civilized are being on the side of belligerent Turkey who are in denial and denial is the continuation of the Genocide. Thus the Armenian Genocide continues, it has never stopped.
Look, whether Hitler had a grandson who made some similar comments as did Dr Cemal is not the issue here. The issue here is the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the current Turkish authorities. There are thousands of Turks who have heard from their parents or grandparents that something awful did indeed happen in 1915. They are not dumb, they know how the Ottoman government alongside the Young Turks conspired to eliminate their Armenian subjects. Most know the truth, but are scared to talk about the Genocide in the open. but once again, righteous Turks, the likes of Dr. Akcam, Orhan Pamuk, and Dr. Hasan Cemal come to remind their own people that, yes indeed the Genocide happened.....and our reaction to these righteous Turks? Childish and bellicose. Instead of thanking Dr Hasan Cemal, we are frustrated with him. Again typical immature Armenian political naivete. Spewing our frustration at the wrong person will not make the Turkish government accept their complicity in executing the Armenian Genocide.
To conclude, I would throw this "land issues" out of the window right away, and without any remorse or guilt. I still have to meet one Armenian who wants to live on our ancestral lands, we just feel emotional about these lands, but when push comes to shove, not one single Armenian would go to live on our ancestral lands voluntarily. That is the almighty truth, I know that some of my compatriots will hate me for these brazen words, but that's the truth and nothing but the truth. And let us spew our frustrations not at righteous Turks, but at unrighteous Armenian leaders who for the last 19 years have been fleecing Armenia bone dry, causing immense pain and suffering for the 3 million poor and disenfranchised Armenians. I bet no one here has the faintest idea that 90% of Armenias wealth and choice lands are in the hands of 500 or so government officials and mafiosi oligarchs. The majority of our people live like cattle and in substandard living conditions. Surprised? Don't be.
Hye, wake up! We Armenians, the world over, including generations removed from Haiastan, are still the victims of the ongoing Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation... Turkey's stance, in all its efforts whether in USA or elsewhere, are still in the Ottoman mode - still eliminating, crushing, any and all that is Armenian. The ongoing 'ploys' by the Turks into today - obviously - pursuing their convoluted mentality - eliminating Armenians whose lands and cultures Turks took as their own.
Further, my family fled Dikranagerd, an ancient and highly developed society... as so many others, came to the USA and were facing their lack of knowledge of the language, the foods, the clothing, and more... As it is with others, my family's support through all the years has been for a free Armenia... and my family's continued support for those who are citizens of Armenia today who bear the burdens of any new nation - facing an impossible leadership, facing an impossible neighbor - Turkey.
Still, in the hundreds of year of Turkish domination - Turkish leaderships cannot, will not, tolerate the existence of Armenians -pursues my family - wherever I am. Manooshag
Hye, wake up! We Armenians, the world over, including generations removed from Haiastan, are still the victims of the ongoing Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation... Turkey's stance, in all its efforts whether in USA or elsewhere, are still in the Ottoman mode - still eliminating, crushing, any and all that is Armenian. The ongoing 'ploys' by the Turks into today - obviously - pursuing their convoluted mentality - eliminating Armenians whose lands and cultures Turks took as their own.
Further, my family fled Dikranagerd, an ancient and highly developed society... as many other survivors reached the USA and were facing their lack of knowledge of the language, the foods, the clothing, and more... As it is with others, my family's support through all the years has been for a free Armenia... and my family's continued support for those who are citizens of Armenia today who bear the burdens of any new nation - facing an impossible leadership, facing an impossible neighbor - Turkey.
Still, in the hundreds of year of Turkish domination - Turkish leaderships cannot, will not, tolerate the existence of the Christian Armenians. This pursues my family - wherever... Manooshag
That's hogwash Mike and Henry. This discussion has begum to dip into the doldrums of defeatism again. Lets not confuse a sense of perceived realism with defeatism. Land reparations is our right and should be demanded not requested. Nothing is static and I refuse to make excuses for illegal Turkish occupation of my lands. The restoration of Armenian lands back into Armenian hands, as one of components of reparations, is not contingent on the feasibility of whether Armenians are willing to go back to Turkey. It is contingent on the sanctity of JUSTICE.
If I choose to return that is my decision and only mine to make. I may indeed choose to return and raise my family there. I may also decide to operate my fruit processing plant on my lands and employ local labor. I may on the other hand choose to lease my returned land to an Armenian, Kurd or Turk already residing on that land for a mutually agreed upon FEE under the normal terms of a standard lease agreement. Point being MY decision to do what I like with MY LAND is MY CHOICE. Those rights were relentlessly and viciously trampled over almost a century ago and the amount of time elapsed since those genocidal crimes were perpetrated does not de-legitimize or undermine my rightful legal claims to MY LAND TO DO WHATEVER I WANT WITH THEM.
Mike, thanks for your honesty. We look at the Armenian cause with a romantic notion that all is good with our people. It' s almost like time was frozen for us in 1920 and that nothing has changed in 90 years. Well,our factionalism in the diaspora has been a constraint for Armenians. The reality of the Armenian Republic is nothing like the dreamswe have keepaliveover the last decades. Did anyone
dream of corruption and poverty?
My point is that we can't hope to make progress if we constantly represent ourselves as the victimand the Turks are all bad folks. We need to be able to articulate the difference between the issues of Armenia/Turkey verses the Armenians/Turks. That's what dialogue is about.It will help us
understand how deal with our cause in 2010 terms and not in1920 mentality. Anything less than this and we will run the risk of being written off as an angry victim with ethnocentric views.
Misguided frustration directed at enlightened Turkish individuals is unfortunate and sad. As Armenians, we talk a lot about how our Christian faith has endured our people through the centuries
of oppression.... Vartanantz through the Soviet period. Where is our faith when we engage with Turks
on issues of mutual importance. Can we put our anger, frustration and perceptions aside long enough to listen and "open our hearts"> We must encourage the changes going on in Turkish society. These are not "soft" notions. They are real strategiesto make progress and to get the Armenians out from
the rut we are in. Thank you Hasan Cemal, Taner Akcam and others.
Mr. Sinan,
What do you mean whether or not Hitler's grandson made similar comments is not "the issue"? Did you just voluntarily assign yourself, your martyrs, and your people a less deserving piece of the "justice" pie? I think so. Mr. Ryan's hypothetical said more than we could all say.
"There are thousands of Turks who have heard from their parents or grandparents that something awful did indeed happen in 1915. They are not dumb, they know how the Ottoman government alongside the Young Turks conspired to eliminate their Armenian subjects. Most know the truth, but are scared to talk about the Genocide in the open." Jesus Christ, talk about an exaggeration.
I have yet to meet an Armenian who is not ready, willing, and eager to reach out to Turks who are willing to have "dialogue." (Ok, that's not true, there are idiots in all groups). But Dr. Akcam has been embraced by even the most radical elements of our society. As our history shows, we know very well the wisdom behind all the advice he and Mr. Cemal are giving us today. We have been practicing it for quite some time now.
The problem is...we don't need to hear it from the grandson of one of the Pashas, being repeated as if WE AREN'T YET READY FOR DIALOGUE. Or we are no longer patient. This only suggests that despite the Turks' ignorance and destructiveness, the Armenians are still, somehow, part of the "problem" when it comes to genocide recognition. Most Turks, the vasty majority of the Turkish intellegentsia, and definitely the Turkish government, are not looking for "dialogue" in the way you and Dr. Akcam are imagining it. They are looking for "dialogue" so as to suggest that we MIGHT be wrong or that THEY MIGHT BE MAKING A LEGITIMATE POINT. They have realized how pointless it is to deny the genocide, they seem to be satisfied with merely putting a question mark under it. And that, my friends, is even more destructive because it is cloaked with talk of "dialogue" and "reconciliation" and "friendship" and "science" and "facts." It has clearly fooled some.
Armenians tell each other everything that Akcam and Cemal have been saying all the time. We don't need to hear it from Turks.
Henry, I don't understand why we are so mired in regaining Western Armenian lands? How many Armenians live on these lands? 10, 20 or 500 to be fair to you? Come on, let us all be realistic and fight for "realistic goals." It is like American Indian, who, mind you, count about 500,000 people in the USA, asking for their ancestral lands that stretched from the East to the West coast of the USA. Our ancestral lands, unfortunately, are inhabited by 20 million strong Turks and Kurds. Now, all emotions aside, what are your realistic chances gaining back these lands back for Armenia? 0.1%? 0.9%? or plain and simple a giant beautifully rounded and colored zero?
Instead of talking about subjects that will never materialize, why not we devote all our resources for the recognition of the Genocide by world powers, including Turkey? Our unrealistic expectations are proof of our immature and simplistic approach to world politics. Yeah, of course I would like to see the grand houses that my great grand father Sarkis Sinan lived(in Istanbul) before being dragged out of his house and butchered. Of course my friend Vartan wants to get his 200 or so hectars of land in and around Van...but realistically, these kind of expectations are immature to say the least.
We lost these lands for good, due to treachery and Genocide. We might have a slim chance of regaining them, if one day, Armenias population grows 100 fold, and we acquire a standing army of 3 millions, equipped with 500 nuclear warheads, and an airforce which is second to none. Looking at the emigration "out" of Armenia, our dreams have become wishful thinking(s) for some misinformed hot heads.
No wonder Turkey has the upper hand when it comes to politics. For the last 600-700 years, they had to deal with the East and the West, and they walked a fine line balancing the two. Just look how they control 20 million strong Kurds in Turkey. I will not go into details about their "carrot and stick" approach towards the Kurds. I very much doubt that Kurds have the means or the will to challenge Turkish authorities, and they will forever be part of Turkey, whether they like it or not.
And here we are, 18 plus years after independance, playing amateurish political chess with a professional.
Come on guys, dreams stay what they are, dreams. Whereas the recognition of the Genocide will materialize very very soon.
Correction: While he was born in Taron -- St. Mashtot's intellectual curiousity, professional service (including the invention of the alphabet), and his death happened at the very heart of present day Eastern Armenia, and later, Kharabagh. He is not as "Anatolian" as you think.
I completely agree. It is outrageous that Aliyev and Azerbaijan are allowed to make war threats
in a peace. Without an appropriate response from the Armenian side,they almost sound like impatient victors; rather than the losing side in a conflictinitiated by thier oppressive state. I understand that it is, at times, in Armenia's interest to not respond to such ridiculous statements,but we must be careful to not lose more ground in the public positioning debate. Aliyev's continued
barage of obsurdities, are designed to distort the truth by repeating comments to a naive or uniformed public . I do believe that Armenia's statement on recognizing Karabagh is a response
along these lines and should continue.
IT MAKES ME THINK IF ANY OF HASAN CEMALS FAMILY OR HIS BELOVED TURKYISH PEOPEL ARE WILLING TO LISTEN TO THE GRANDSONS OFF STEPAN DZAGHIKIAN ,BEDROS DER BOGHOSIAN ,ARDASHES KEVORKIAN >>> AND LISTEN TO THE PAIN THAT THE GRANDPARENTS WHERE DEALING WITH THE LOSS OF THEIR FAMILIES AND 1.5 MILLION ARMENIANS
WOULD THEY GIVE THEM THE SAME RESPECT .....
Mihran, why don't you return to our ancestral lands in Turkey? How about Now? When will our phony and self deceiving childish pranks end? Why is that our emotions always supercede our intellect? Do you honestly believe we want to go back and live in current day Turkey? Keep your emotions at bay, because in the end your emotions will do you more harm than good. Sadly, even today, we are held hostage to our emotions. If you or others erroneously think that us, Armenians alone would be able to force the Turkish government to do this or that, without the explicit help of good righteous Turks, then we all should ride "Peter Pan" buses and head for Disneyland and from there on to Fantasyland.
Sadly my friend, those lands do not belong to us anymore, wake up from your dream and we will welcome you to reality with open arms.
You don't base someone's character on where they died, but on where they were born, because all the elements that formed one's character is derived from that fact at a very early age. Einstein died in America....does that change the essence of who or what he was? Not likely. In any event, at that point in time, Armenia was being divided between Rome and Persia, and Taron was fully in the Persian-Armenia orbit, although it was fully part of Anatolia. All that aside, let's fact facts: in 1914, Yerevan had a population of approx. 30,000, many of whom were not Armenian...yet the Armenian population of almost every major Anatolian city was much, much greater. I suspect the denigration of anything seen as 'Turkish-Armenian' is much more a biased political position than anything related to history or an honest understanding of the importance of Ottoman-Armenian culture.
Sometimes I wonder if this editor is trying to get kicked out of his job, and now I am wondering if he's trying to get kicked out of his school! You love playing with fire, don't you, baron Mouradian?
Thank you Mihran, our rights to our land have nothing to do with military might, but with justice and what is right. The arguments being laid out by those ready to cede our claims, without even asking the others don't even add up. "Armenia cannot take the lands militarily". Who said we should? "Armenia is much smaller than Turkey, it has no oil". So what? Israel did not even exist, and was certainly no force compared to Germany, but Germany made reparations because it was right. "There are 20 million Turks/Kurds living there now". Living where? Who said we're talking about all of Wilsonian Armenia? "I don't want to live there, are you going to live there?" Ridiculous statements, both of them. Who cares. Land ownership is not determined by whether you want to live there. Let Turkey return some of our lands, and we can live there if we like, lease it back to the Turks if we like, or turn it into a huge national park if we like. That's our business. Tell you what, give us back Cilicia as a test run, and we'll see if Armos move there. I'm not sure I could resist.
If YOU don't care about land reparations, you are forfeiting your historical right. That does not give you the right to forfeit the entire nation's rights, thank you very shad!
Mike Sinan is absolutely correct in his assessment. Demanding land at this point in history is really just ridiculous and you cannot bludgeon someone (let alone a whole country) into accepting the notion that they committed a genocide. Education and facts will slowly win that race. However, on the land issue, we need to realize that the tide turned long ago, and while unfortunate, cannot be turned back, no matter how 'just' anyone thinks it might be. If you have a land gripe or a legal issue with Turkey, get a lawyer and file a suit. Any private citizen can do this. If anything, Armenians should be applauding and supporting the current Turkish government for committing the funds and labor to restore historic Armenian churches across the country - even though there are no people to use or attend them. I've been to Turkey and can tell you, there are plenty of historic Seljuk and Ottoman structures all over the place that deserve, but are not getting restoration funds. The other point is the fallacy that all Turks are alike. Nothing could be further from the truth. That was not true in Ottoman times, nor is it today. While there are many Turks who are linked with and support the ultranationalist Ataturk/CUP legacy in certain political parties or the military, there are also many there who see the historic flaws and dangers of racist, fear-mongering myths, and want to change the dynamic for the better. It is all part of a process, one which is moving, albeit slowly, in the direction of openness and truth. Step by step, inch by inch, Professor Akcam is moving the discussion forward....despite the overwhelming challenge. He is not alone, but he still needs everyone's support.
Dear Stepan,
Anti chronologically,to your above post.
1.RA should have done that long ago,that is recognize Artsakhs´(Nagorniyi Karab agh) independence.Better yet,should have done what it started to do in the commencement of it.
"Miatzoum" ....after all if we declare it is Armenian territory,parecel and part of it,it SHOULD FORM PART OF IT... usurped,"squattered" - in by azeris.lIKE YOU SAY, WE WERE THE VICTORS.sINCE IT FAILED ,YES FAILED TO DO SO ,THESE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES.Those people at the helm of the previous government,LTP ,to be exact, did not have the "cojones" to act appropriately
After all a man of letters and much knowledge..but Cultural-wise,not with abilitites to steer the victorious "jogads".There is proof that one or two or the latter comandants,had had the idea and suggsted to lTP or other inpower of the armed forces to make an incursion into NAKHIJEVAN and within a few hours liberate it too.Bygones are bygones!!!!!!
As regrds your first and second paragraph´s ,I regret for Armenian Amerticans it is probably their being incognizant of turkic,rather ,in spanish( turco-azeri ) "Khasiat",voj in Armenian,which means their nature or natural mode..even with their backs on the ground they will keep "Hokhortal" means boast,MORE OR LESS.Several times over when Serzh Sargsyan was Ministre of Defense, he boldly DEFIED THEM and said "come and get it"this I describe Ala Americaine...
But nothing happened.So do not be dismayed with their "Khasiat" -like boasting!!!
However,they have One IMPORTANT factor on their side,that of great Turkey and in exstension suppoting states....Viz.who-you go figure outplease...
So it is high time we in the Diaspora also brface ourselves get mOBILIZED in case great Turkey really means what it declares, that of being on the side of Azerbaijan and...even support it in case war breaks out.
I do believe this is a probability as we have seen so far, their unrelenting stance is not changing.They may mean business.
A. There are two reasons for this to happen.A.If their quest for entering in EU is not attained.Like in the past, they will then turn to the EAST.They have dropped in this respect.
B.TODAY, yes today their FM has declared openly we are NEO-OSMANLY....go figure that out please.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
ex-Executive Board member of Armenian (first)
Co9ngress ,Paris 1979
Mr. Raffi,
You didn't even catch the contradictions within your own statements. If you're not talking about "all of historic Armenia" and only SOME of it, you are yourself forfeiting the historical rights of our "entire nation." You are merely ceding a little more than I am willing to. Who are you to decide that we should only get back the few provinces we lost in 1923? Why be a coward like that? Isn't it our "historical right" to ask for ALL of Armenia (yes, including Kilikia)?
And I still can't believe that some Diaspora Armenians have the nerve to suggest that the people of Armenia should live under continued blockade and insecurity just so that ONE day, Mr. Raffi up there can have the right to LEASE his land away to Turks and Kurds. All the while, he lives comfortably somewhere else, waiting, patiently. Get over yourself.
And please, spare me the comparisons between the Jews and Armenians.
I was only pointing out that, in fact, the "elements that formed his character" were mostly from Ejmiatzin or the outside world (since he traveled a lot). The rest of what you said, I agree with.
However, a few things: Eastern Armenia produced the same intellectual and cultural fabric of the Armenian nation (one has to only look at the Tiflis intellegentsia and the other writers from the era) as did Western Armenia. And second, people always assume that present day Armenia is made up of people from "Eastern Armenia." That is not true. The refugees from Western Armenia all eventually settled in the young republic and brought with them huge cultural significance. Additionally, a lot of the survivors of the genocide moved to Soviet Armenia decades after. Most "Hayastantsis" have at least one great-grandparent that was from Western Armenia (like me).
And Western Armenians have played a huge role in Armenia's blossoming. The First president of Armenia, for example, was a Western Armenian.
Look my dear compatriots. This land issue has been dragged and why not muddied along the way. We lost these lands, and it is very difficult to explain in political jargon that these lands are forever gone, unless...if Armenia by some divine intervention suddenly became a world superpower. You simply cannot uproot and drive off 20 million Turks and Kurds living there, I don't understand why is it hard to grasp this reality. Screaming "bloody murder" won't help our cause. Calling for the return of these lands and singing patriotic songs since 1915 did absolutely nothing for our cause either. I have heard and sang with pride and gusto, the "bank ottoman kravadz e ....." patriotic song hundreds of times, but no one heard our beautiful singing voices but...ourselves, no one cared who "kravetz which bank," no one cared about our "Sasno sarer," etc etc
But then something did occur... a few good righteous and honest Turks opened their mouths, the likes of Noble prize winner Orhan Pamuk, and Dr. Akcam, suddenly the whole world stopped and listened. Suddenly the genie escaped the box, and was free to roam the world. Newspapers all over the world, including, mind you in Turkey wrote editorials and commentaries, started analyzing past events, discussion groups formed all over the world, even inside Turkey, politicians, intellectuals and common people suddenly stopped what they were doing and started to TALK about the Genocide. And how did we show our appreciation? by accussing these righteous Turks for jumping our bandwagon too late, accussing them for saying too little too late, killing the messenger even before he opened his mouth ..and the list gets longer and longer. We have become a tiger who roars and roars but finds no prey, and then it starts devouring itself.
My focus in life is to seek justice for our Armenian people who were slaughtered like cattle and driven off to the deserts to die. My goal is to reach out to All Turks, extend my hand of friendship and trust, thank the ones who currently are helping us , and make new friends along this difficult journey. I understand the frustration and anger of some of my brothers here on this forum, but we need to grow up and move on slowly always using our brains instead of our hearts.
I for one, will Never live on historic Armenian lands, I don't care and have no desire to return.
As one wily young Turk told me: "...you can have your historic Armenian lands any time, in exchange for your properties in California..."
Thank you for the support Mecnun. It's greatly appreciated. It's people like Ergun that are separating us all from each other. Without them around, I'm sure this issue would be cleared decades ago and we wouldn't all be facing all this BS today. Sagol kardesh and keep up the good work Garen jan btw.
Regarding facts lol. Here are some facts I'd love to see Ergun or any other monkey deny...
_____________________________________________
~Talaat Pasha's Official Orders Regarding the Armenian Massacres, March 1915-January 1916~
_____________________________________________
March 25th, 1915
To Djemal Bey, Delegate at Adana:
The duty of everyone is to effect on the broadest lines possible the realization of the noble project of wiping out of existence the well-known elements who for centuries have been the barrier to the empire's progress in civilization.
We must, therefore, take upon ourselves the entire responsibility, pledging ourselves to this action no matter what happens, and always remembering how great is the sacrifice which the Government has made in entering the World War. We must work so that the means used may lead to the desired end.
In our dispatch dated February 18th, we announced that the Djemiet has decided to uproot and annihilate the different forces which for centuries have been a hindrance; for this purpose it is forced to resort to very bloody methods. Certainly the contemplation of these methods horrified us, but the Djemiet saw no other way of insuring the stability of its work.
Ali Riza [Note: the committee delegate at Aleppo] harshly criticised us and urged that we be merciful; such simplicity is nothing short of stupidity. We will find a place for all those who will not cooperate with us, a place that will wring their delicate heartstrings.
Again let me remind you of the question of property left. This is very important. Watch its distribution with vigilance; always examine the accounts and the use made of the proceeds.
THE DJEMIET
_____________________________________________
September 3rd, 1915
To the Prefecture of Aleppo:
We advise that you include the woman and children also in the orders which have been previously prescribed as to be applied to the males of the intended persons. Select employees of confidence for these duties.
Minister of the Interior, TALAAT.
_____________________________________________
September 16th
To the Prefecture of Aleppo:
You have already been advised that the Government, by order of the Djemiet, has decided to destroy completely all the indicated persons [Armenians] living in Turkey.
All who oppose this decision and command cannot remain on the official staff of the empire.
Their existence must come to an end, however tragic the means may be; and no regard must be paid to either age or sex, or to conscientious scruples.
Minister of the Interior, TALAAT.
_____________________________________________
November 18th, 1915
To the Prefecture of Aleppo:
It appears, from the interventions which have recently been made by the American Ambassador [Note: Mr. Morgenthau] at Constantinople on behalf of his Government, that the American Consuls are obtaining information by some secret means. They remain unconvinced, despite our assurance that the deportations will be accomplished in safety and comfort.
Be careful that events which attract attention shall not occur in connection with those who are near cities and other centres. In view of our present policy, it is most important that foreigners who are in those parts shall be convinced that the expulsion of the Armenians is in reality only deportation.
Therefore it is necessary that a show of gentle dealing shall be made for a while, and the usual measures be taken in suitable places.
All persons who have given information to the contrary shall be arrested and handed over to the military authorities for trial by court-martial. This order is recommended as very important.
Minister of the Interior, TALAAT.
_____________________________________________
December 11th, 1915
To the Prefecture of Aleppo:
We are informed that some correspondents of Armenian journals are acquiring photographs and letters which depict tragic events, and these they give to the American Consul at Aleppo.
Dangerous people of this kind must be arrested and suppressed.
Minister of the Interior, TALAAT.
_____________________________________________
December 29th, 1915
To the Prefecture of Aleppo:
We are informed that foreign officers are finding along the roads the corpses of the indicated persons, and are photographing them.
Have these corpses buried at once and do not allow them to be left near the roads.
This order is recommended as very important.
Minister of the Interior, TALAAT.
_____________________________________________
January 15th, 1916
To the Government of Aleppo:
We are informed that certain orphanages which have opened also admitted the children of the Armenians.
Should this be done through ignorance of our real purpose, or because of contempt of it, the Government will view the feeding of such children or any effort to prolong their lives as an act completely opposite to its purpose, since it regards the survival of these children as detrimental.
I recommend the orphanages not to receive such children; and no attempts are to be made to establish special orphanages for them.
Minister of the Interior, TALAAT.
_____________________________________________
From the Ministry of the Interior to the Governor of Aleppo:
Only those orphans who cannot remember the terrors to which their parents have been subjected must be collected and kept.
Send the rest away with the caravans.
Minister of the Interior, TALAAT.
_____________________________________________
Source: Source Records of the Great War, Vol. III, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923
If it still doesn't fit in between the ears, let me know. I love facts!
Mr Sinan,
I invite you, and the defeatists like you, who applaud a couple of turks who come to earn the trust of Armenians by saying we both eat dolma and that anger is bad for our health while saying nothing relevant about the Genocide or about engaging the turks into finally acknowledging -as it happened, "Yes, we apologize to the Armenian nation for the Genocide"- to move your credulous selves to Constantinople or some other of the lands usurped by the turks and, why not, visit the couple of old churches they are supposedly restoring to save face. Then again, maybe you need invitations at all. I doubt you are Armenians. Maybe you are turks pretending to pass for Armenians or maybe you have forgotten what it is to be Armenian. Go back where you belong, before the dolma gets cold.
Mr. Avo,
That was quite empty in substance. Dr. Akcam, Pamuk, and Cemal have repeatedly recognized the genocide, and one has even contributed to genocide scholarship. And why did you feel the need to resort to questioning my or his "Armenianess." Amot, hazar amot.
Amot tsezi, Henry Dumanian. I have not criticized Taner Akcam --as you know well, so if you read me well you are acting in bad faith--, Mr Akcam has universal recognition by Armenians. I am addressing the couple of people making comments, who claim to be Armenians --I have no means of knowing, sorry, so as far as I am concerned your word is not enough for me (or mine for you, for that matter)-- who are urging us to "throw this “land issues” out of the window right away, and without any remorse or guilt", Sinan the little is calling on us to do, just because a couple of turks are saying "let's be friends and let's the past be the past!". Try saying that a Jew regarding the Holocaust and all the lost property and to give up reparations. Try saying that to the any Armenian like me. Try it, and do it publicly in any Armenian venue.
I am limiting myself to what I know to be Cemal's statements --I have not heard him inequivocally repudiating the Genocide or calling it by that name, so please do us all a favour and include it in your future responses-- and as for Orhan Pamuk, I urge you to read --and read well, if you can, without being beguiled by Pamuk's superb rhetorical skills, what he says about 1915, and please write here whatever of substance you find about his comments on the "tragic events of 1915" (read, for example, his piece for the New Yorker a couple of years back and try to see if you can weave all the hipnotizing writing of Pamuk into anything meaningful for us, Armenians, and for the recogniton of the Genocide by the Turks).
If you are throwing "out of the window" our rights to reparations and to our lost lands just because one, two, five hundred or a thousand Turks are being polite and nice, and saying a couple of nice things about our victims and Genocide and are painting a few churches, then reconsider shame on you. Hazar amot tsezi, Henry Dumanian.
Mr. Sinan is right and makes many very good points. Let's add that today's Armenia can barely keep itself alive and hasn't even reunified itself w/ Karabagh yet. The whole discussion about Eastern Anatolia is a political pipe dream, and a waste of time and energy. It is not defeatist to acknowledge the facts: if Armenians could not maintain control of those lands a thousand years ago, it is even less possible today.
Looks you are not well informed, karekin. Armenia has a working economy, trade and well prepared army that liberated Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh) from the eastern half of our turkish enemies. As for the turks getting edgy about Western Armenia (that's how we usually call what you name eastern anatolia) we will talk the day the Kurds proclaim an independent Kurdistan, perhaps in northern Iraq.
Ryan, an excellent hypothetical analogy. NO, I would not dare be caught dead at such an event.
Henry, why would you "voluntarily assign yourself, your martyrs, and your people a less deserving piece of the justice pie" in forfeiting your rightful legal claims to land when such a claim is yet to be tabled? Why "cowardly" toss your family’s rights away when you haven’t even made an attempt to submit that claim let alone defend it in a court of law? Why assume failure in re-claiming your family's rightful ownership to land that you haven’t even attempted to re-claim?
Afterall, people mistakenly thought claiming Armenian assets from several life insurance companies was impossible too (NYLife etc.). Many also thought an independent Armenia was a pipedream back then as well. But look at what we have accomplished to date, an independent Armenia and Artsakh as well as assets accrued over the years that belong to Armenians. This wasn’t a result of years sulking in a defeatist ottoman mindset of appeasement and mediocrity but instead a result of diligent work to secure our rights and property through legal channels.
If for whatever reason you feel entitled to forfeit land that your ancestors were raped and burned alive on in 1915, do you think allowing the Turkish government to usurp your lands will ensure the security of Armenian’s and the current borders of Armenia?
Also, no one on this thread has yet suggested that "Armenia should live under continued blockade and insecurity" at the expense of making legitimate legal claims for land reparations. That too is nonsense. Indeed, both of these goals can be pursued as mutually exclusive and one doesn't necessarily hinder the other. Our neighboring foes may like to present our options as an either or case, to pin us in the proverbial corner but this is false propaganda that unfortunately some of our kinsmen have fallen head over heels for.
Let's not misattribute our legitimate legal rights to our lands with what the Turkish government and their covert agents would like us all to believe as supposedly irrational "emotional outbursts."
Mike,
You ask "Why don’t you return to our ancestral lands in Turkey?"
Surely that is a silly question for an Armenian to ask.
Frankly speaking Mike, my land is currently occupied and governed over by the relatives of those who barbarically murdered my ancestors with beastly miss aforethought in 1915 in what is known to many as the Armenian genocide. I have no good reason to return to that land until the Turkish government has recognized the Armenian genocide, returned Armenian territory and property in the form of reparations and stopped enforcing Machiavellian laws that target Armenians or anyone else willing to speak out about cowardly acts of murder.
In other words, until my history is acknowledged, my legal rights respected in the modern confines of the law, and the majority of Turks no longer consider minority groups living in Turkey nothing more than infidels, I have no incentive to be in Turkey.
Mike, if the notion of ceding your land to the denialist Turkish government doesn’t make you queasy, that’s your prerogative. Perhaps you'd be interested in granting the rights to your land over to me seeing that you won't be interested in using it when we re-claim it anyway. Hell, as an Armenian I’ll do you this favor and take it off your hands.
Well, I understand the frustration of some here, I grew up in Lebanon, sang and danced the songs of the "fedayis", attended all parties, political and others. But, unfortunately I saw no advancement for the recognition of the Genocide. All I saw was one Armenian bashing and kicking another, Tashnags vs. Hunchaks? Remember? And does any one of you see this trend being continued up to this very minute? Why did not we make any progress re: the Genocide? How could we? We were/are way too busy doing the dirty work of the Turkish government, ourselves. Now, let's take Armenians in Armenia and outside. Same trend continues unabated. And you want your ancestral lands? What kind of a childish dream is that? When will we all grow up, throw the mask off our faces, and start a serious dialogue with, read my words, good righteous Turks. If it was not for Mr. Orhan Pamuk, and Dr. Akcam and many other Turks, you and I still be singing "bank Ottoman kravadz e ........" to ourselves and no one else will hear us. And since we were/are way too busy kicking each other, until today, inside and outside of Armenia, these righteous Turks took upon themselves to push the Genocide issue for world recognition. Let me tell you my story dear Avo, you just called me a Turk, fine, the last time I talked to my grandfather, he was orphaned and walking aimlessly in the Syrian desert, his father, Sarkis Sinan, was an Istanbul Armenian, who was pulled from his house and executed right there and then. Time and again, our fathers and grandfathers instructed us to be united as one, because united we stand?? but unfortunately our political parties are interested in nothing more than kicking other Armenian parties. We have, just like the Kurds, "tribal mentality," and it is this very dangerous mentality that is keeping us bogged down in these senseless and stupid Arm. vs. Arm. hostililities. Maybe some of our "Avos" should direct their anger at the 100 plus political parties inside and outside of Armenia, that have done absolutely nothing but fight each other. Still don't believe me? Read and listen to the news coming out of Armenia, HHSh against Republican, Communist against Hunchaks, Tashnags against government, and there are still 90 plus parties wasting their energies fighting against other Armenians. Corruption, favouritism, political assasinations, theft of government property, shooting your own people, oligarchism, illegal confiscation of property of the poor, and the list is long...and all this in a small country, inhabited by 3 million peoples. Who has got the time to address our Genocide, when we are busy fleecing our own people???
I am glad that some of my brothers here recognize the dangers of inter-Armenian fights, and sorry Avo, I am not a defeatist. You don't even understand the meaning of the word "defeatist." If thanking good righteous Turks who are here helping us and endangering their very lives, makes me a defeatist, then let me become one...but for Gods sakes, stop the hallucinations and face the realities.
Thanks to these great Turks: Mr. Orhan Pamuk, Dr. Akcam, Dr. Hasan Cemal, and 1000s of other righteous Turks, who are doing what we should have done 80 years ago, but were way too busy fighting each other.
The next will be as always. Mr Nalbandyan will think he is diplomatically fooling us. Mr. Sarksyan will be using both Diaspora and Mr. Nalbandyan, and Mr. Sahakyan will call us Takanq.
So what are you doing for Armenians? The Armenian political parties are bad, the republic of Armenia is bad, its government is bad, the Revolutionary songs and ideas are stupid, the "Avos" are bad. Only Sinan the little and his friends with liliputian minds and vision are right. Go ahead and praise those one, two, one thousand turks because they say a few words of condolences --the ones you hear or say at the funeral of a distant acquaintance-- and we will surely get Genocide recognition. Right? I will wait here. In the meantime, it occurs to me that a good of curing Turkophilia would be changing the name to an Armenian sounding one --for example, turning Sinan to Sinanian, even though dropping the "ian" from the surname does not seem to have helped Mr Sinan, as you say 1,200 Sinans were massacred in Constantniple: 1,200! It would almost seem a Turkish exaggeration if it weren't the opposite. A Turk would say it's an Armenian lie. It would certainly deserve a whole chapter in our prolific Genocide scholarly literature. You are so good hearted, Mr Sinan, with our Turkish brothers. So ready to forgive in exchange of a few words of sympathy and a pat in the back. So, go ahead, change your name Mihran Sinanian, set up tent in Constantinople, Kars or Van and try to say the Turks carried out a Genocide and how millions of Armenians are still grieving over that and still trying to heal the wounds, only deepened by Turkish denial. I would ask Hrant Dink, who did just that, how our Turkish brothers would react. I would, if he only was around. As for you, it's an excellent idea you are ready to throw out of the window our claims to our lands. You certainly deserve the same fate. It's good you stay where you are: Armenia doesn't need you. Go back to the kitchen and keep enjoying that now cold dolma with Cemal, talking with him and reminiscing about his grandfather. Stay where you are. If we ever get back something from your turkish friends, and if you are indeed who you claim to be --of Armenian descent, for no longer you can be deemed Armenian-- I will make you sure you do not get back one inch of land nor one penny for 1,200 fallen Sinans and for our 1,500,000 martyrs.
Avo, I don't know who you are and you certainly don't know me, but my understanding of Armenia, both old and new, is very deep and very solid. So, keep your criticism to the issue. The problem is, just like the ultranationalists in Turkey, some Armenians insist on drinking the politically tainted kool-aid of the old days. It may taste sweet, but it is laced with all kinds of fallacies and unrealistic notions. Time to think outside the box and learn a new language. Realize that Turkey, the US and others have the upper hand at this point in history, and adapt to it. The history of Armenians is about that kind of adaptation to new circumstances. Unfortunately, banging the drum of endless anti-Turkish nationalism may feel good, but the sound is way off key for today's realities. Armenia has little leverage and if it doesn't play the game correctly, stands to lose even more. By the way, Avo, if you don't already know this, the Armenian population of Istanbul has swelled during the past 10 years...probably more than doubled...due to migrant workers from Armenia who need an income. They are living well - without problems - and sending money home. Too bad the diasporan nationalists can't feed or provide for them the way the Turkish economy can.
I am still waiting to find out who or which organization sponsored or organized this event. Why do we always hear about such events after the fact? I am sure, many including myself would like to attend such events, specially when the speaker is Jemal's grandson.
Mr. Balanian,
The editorial mentions the organizers. Did you even read it? It's "Friends of Hrant Dink". Any many papers, including the Armenian Weekly, started publishing advertisements weeks before the event. Try subscribing to one of the local papers before blaming them...
Avo, just a reminder, the suffix "ian" has absolutely nothing to do with Armenians. It was borrowed from the Iranians. Amaduni, Rshduni, Bahlavouni, Bagrationi...do these sound familiar? Do you see the -ian here? Sinan is a very old Armenian name, it started as Sinan, and will end that way. Have you ever heard the great Armenian architect, Sinan? Hmmm, strange indeed, because that would have been a clever hint. I will not insult your intellect here.
Because we borrowed a suffix from the Iranians(-ian), it does not make us Armenian. Have you heard about these last names? Milian, Galian, Guderian...Armenian? NOT. First is a Spanish last name, the second Irish, and the third an old Prussian. Again, ignorance will forever lock your brain my friend. If you just lock up your emotions, and unlock your intellect, you will be freed from your ignorance. Is ignorance bliss? It's your turn, answer to it.
Avo, my objective in this life is to have the Genocide spread amongst all Turkic speaking peoples. I could, however, attend (Gusagtsagan) parties, where mixed with the scotch and vodka, soda for my weak stomach, eating Khorovats, sing all and every known revolutionary songs, and spend the night away having "kef"...and waking up the next morning dazed and tired, and then expect the Turkish government to acknowledge the Genocide.
Avo, you have veered away from the subject matter, and have made this forum a stage for personal grudges and vendettas. Relax, the issue here is the Genocide, it is not about the Sinan family, it is not about Michael Sinan, nor about Avo, nor about our emotional outbursts. If Orhan Pamuk did what our political leaders should have done 80 plus years ago, we would not have had this tit for tat engagement. But, unfortunately they were/are more interested in fighting amongst themselves, and all the while the Genocide was left and remembered ONLY on April 24.
P.S.: Avo, trust me, even if I am offered the two stately houses that my great grand father owned in Istanbul (and FYI they still are standing), plus 1,000 acres of land on our ancestral lands, I will kindly refuse the generous offer, and God is my witness, am assigning you as the sole owner of my properties. Enjoy.
Mihran,
Thank you for your reply.
You have decided to analyze what I have said within the framework of your own opinions and your version of history.
By “voluntarily” giving up our “rightful” and “legal” claim to Western Armenia, I am not assigning our people a less deserving piece of the”justice pie.” Justice, to me, does not come in a package of reparations. Justice for me is Turkey’s recognition that our people had lived on that land for generations (before Turkic invasions), and that the Ottoman Empire systematically and brutally carried out a campaign of genocide: death, rape, and everything in between. For you, it does, and that is perfectly fine and you are entitled to that view, and are not deranged, acting cowardly, or anything related. But that is not what the comments that you selectively quoted from were discussing, and, as I’m sure you’ll realize by the end of this comment -- neither are you.
If you stop basing your ideas on emotion, you will see that you are not suggesting anything different than I am. Please bare with me:
What you are essentially saying is that Armenia (note, not Armenians, but the Republic of Armenia), should base its foreign and national security policy on the idea of “historical rights.” Am I misunderstanding you? According to that logic, Armenia should prepare for a war and file legal claims at the International Court of Justice. No? If the ICJ rejects our claims (as it has in the past, something which you seem to not be aware of), we should not accept the outcome, file an appeal (oh wait, the ICJ has no appeals)...well...just not accept the outcome. And all this time, we should be pursuing the establishment of an open border with Turkey, and expect them to not take our militarism too seriously (as they probably wont). Oh, but before all of that, we have to either convince the Russian troops monitoring the Turkish-Armenian border to move out of the way because we are finally capable enough to do it by ourselves! (And of course Azerbaijan would not take advantage of our war front with Turkey and they would never attack us from the eastern front).
Or, of course, if the ICJ DOES accept our claims, things would go much smoother then because Turkey will definitely comply with the ruling.
After we defeat the Turks (or the Kurds), we then have to figure out what exactly we mean by Armenia. “Historic,” “Wilsonian,” or “Sevres” Armenia. (And why not Kilikia too? Or Lake Urmya in Iran?) Of course in this discussion their will be fools like me who will suggest that we do not have the man power or the means to govern Kilikia -- but fools like that should be ignored because they are cowards and defeatists -- slaves to the Ottomans. Anyway, back to our conquest. I see we have finished. Now if we could only figure out how we’re going to have a democracy, keep all the Muslims in (or are we? we can always commit geno...I mean...they can always die from a “civil war”), and still preserve the new “Armenia.” Population: 10 million, 3 million Armenians, 7 million Muslims (so far!).
You are definitely not suggesting anything of the sort, you seem too smart for it.
What you’re probably talking about is GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, we should take the land “back.”
Those opportunities are not something we should base our policies on because they are unpredictable, and don’t always mean something good. Armenia’s borders have changed when huge forces, outside of our control (disintegrating Byzantine empire, Mongol invasions, World War 1/collapse of the Ottoman empire, collapse of the Soviet Union) have created the situation for us to expand our borders, give them a new status, or what have you. Notice how each situation completely redefines the region and shifts alliances/power centers. In fact, during the genocide era, if you know your history well, the Armenian National Council only declared independence because it was forced to.
I would ask you what concrete steps any organization has taken to fulfill this dream of a “united Armenia?” None. Nothing. Not you, not the ARF, NOBODY, has offered a better alternative. Even if we accept this idea of land reparations, we still can’t take any concrete steps in getting them back until that opportunity arises. Until then, as a tiny land locked country at a state of war, a policy of claiming land on another neighbor (land that has to be REPOPULATED, which is in itself a whole other ordeal) is counter productive and does NOT serve Armenia’s interests.
Given the opportunity, Turkey will most likely destroy Armenia and fulfill it’s pan-Turanic vision. Armenia, given the opportunity, will fulfill its own desires. To plan a policy on a hypothetical future ignores the current problems and challenges.
Razmig, you are attempting to blame free market capitalism when it is clear you have no understanding of it. Do you know that during these ruthless privatization era and unregulated market mania you're trying to describe happened with the direct involvement of the government? If you are not a hayastanci, you would have to do research to find out, but if you are a hayastanci it is common knowledge to you that in Armenia the bureaucrats allow you to do anything and everything. Now, I need to ask you to go back and read about Free Market Capitalism, Laissez-Faire capitalism. See what it says, you will understand that it is actual "no regulation" and requires the absence of government intervention. For you to understand what a beautiful thing capitalism is you need to go beyond this starting point. Also, look up Corporatism, Fascism. These are interesting things to compare to capitalism and see where the differences are in order for you to appreciate the idea of laissez-faire.
This is a terrible article by an obviously left-wing writer. Yes, Armenia has its problems, but the problem is too much government, not enough rule of law, and not enough of a free market. Also, a giant issue which the author has not even given mention to is the problem of the Armenian Central bank, because it is insidiously stealing the wealth of the savers in the economy by constantly devauling the currency. Inflation in Armenia has been fairly bad. Without a sound currency, there is no way Armenia can do well. Their interest rates are extremely high, and that is because of inflation. The Dram is a joke, and money, being the life-blood of the economy, is 1/2 of every transaction. When your money is tainted, your economy, obviously, is also going to be tainted. And I am not referring to the bogus CPI set by the central bank of Armenia. The real measure of inflation is the money supply, and that has been increasing at an ALARMING rate. In just 2008 the Money supply increased by over 50%. What we need is the government to not pick winners and losers, and to get out of the way and allow free market forces to do their job. Look at countries where there has been actual liberalization of the economy. Singapore is one example, Hong Kong is another. They have seen massive increases in the standard of living. Also, China, since liberalizing its economic system, has also been a huge benefactor of it.
Your suggesting that we need redistribution of wealth, and for labor to valued properly, shows your naive train of thought. First of all, price fixing is bad. If you can apply this knowledge to prices of goods, why do you assume that this goes out the window in reference to labor? By setting either ceilings or floors on labor, you will only be hurting the populace you are trying to protect. Redistribution of wealth is about the stupidest thing anyone can come up with. There are a million things wrong with it. For one, just based on the idea of natural rights, no man should have a claim to the production of another man. Granted it may be government that has initially given some of these people the preferable-playing-field, by redistrubuting wealth, you will only dicentivize those that are willing to bring their resources to a capital-starved-economy such as Armenia's. Plus, you are giving the wrong incentives to those who are at or below the poverty level. Why would anyone work when you can live on the government dole? We have seen what the welfare state did to America. Do you really want to put in place the same incentives that are crushing America(particularly California and other liberal/psuedo-socialist states) as we speak?
In conclusion Armenia's economy resembles a fascist model, or state capitalism, much more than it does a market-driven economy, or laissez-faire capitalism.
And what does ruthless land privatization mean anyways? Do you think government should own all the land? There is a reason the soviet union collapsed. You must never have heard of the economic calculation problem of socialism, not to mention the incentive problem, or the problem of the tragedy of the commons.
How can I getr acopy of Lemkin's article in hayrenik from 1959.
thanks...
I am not blaming them, but this is not the first time. When Taner Akcam was in Philadelphia, almost no Armenians were there. Others had the same complains as me. For you information, I read most of the Armenian press, daily.
By the way, who is "Friends of Hrant Dink"? I like to have some names and contacts. May be another organization, like the ones mushrooming everyday in the Armenian world.
Mike Sinan, Yes, of course I have heard of Sinan the Great: it really is a matter of debate how Armenian he was. I don't even know you, so I have no idea what "personal vendettas" you are talking about (maybe writing is not really what you know to do, as opposed to applauding the words of some turks about Armenians and Turks sharing dolma and urging us to be patient?). I repeat, it's good you are staying where you are. Keep applauding the kind words of condolences of some Turks. That's all you are wired to do. Nobody can ask for more from you. Oh, and congratulations on the two stately mansions you are donating back to the turks, as well as the 1,000 acres and the memory of the 1,200 Sinans, and the dome of Saint Sophia built by your illustrious ancestor (as you claim him to be).
Just one point for karekin, who shows he has not had an Armenian upbringing despite his Armenian name, repeating the points of turkish propaganda (about the Armenian population of Constantinople having swelled, etc.) The turks had the "upper hand", well, in 1915 too, in 1918 too, in 1991 too, during the war of liberation of Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh, too). So karekin, if we had the defeatist spirit you are advocating, Armenia wouldn't exist today.
Russians are no longer in Azerbaijan. If Azerbaijanis continues threatening Armenia, the Armenian ambassador in Iran should start encouraging the Iranian leadership in Tehran to abrogate Golestan (1813) and Torkemanchayi Treaties (1824) and put an immediate claim on Azeri territory. It’s about time Azerbaijanis joined their former native homeland. Many sincerely religious Shia Azeris might in fact be delighted. They will be able to go to the Iranian mosques and Shia holy pilgrimage centers in Mashhad and Quom and worship their God without Aliev’s government bullying them. And for the Iranians, Baku oil fields and southwestern Caspian continental shelf oil reserves might be too tempting. To the delight of Armenians, with the West being preoccupied in Afghanistan and Iraq, Iranians might march all the way to Baku and overthrow Aliev’s threatening government.
It was unfortunate that Fathali Shah-e Ghagar of Persia being preoccupied with Circassian -Georgian slave girls, and the imcompaetense of his Armenian eunuchs to managing his harem, ignored to protect the northwestern periphery of his empire. Armenians can help Iranians to declare abovementioned two treaties null and void and eventually persuade Iranians to annex Azeri territory. It will be nice to get rid of mean, cantankerous, and bellicose enemies such as phony Turks in Baku!
Hello all....on several occasions visiting Turkey, I was told by many people that Sinan, was in fact, Armenian by birth. I also heard a Turkish tour guide answer a British tourist who asked how they knew this, and the guide's answer was that they have all of Sinan's architechtural notebooks...and they are all written in 'the Armenian script'. The other key issue is that there were no ethnically Turkish architects in the Ottoman empire until well into the late 19th or very early 20th century. As one friendly native Turk said to me on a walk thru old Konya, 'we love Armenians, we owe everything to them, our architecture, our music, our food....without them, we would have nothing'. I think the reality is that perhaps, just perhaps, Armenians have been chasing the wrong turkey....especially when you consider that the architects of the genocide were not actually ethnically Turkish - Ottoman by birth, yes - but not Turkish. And this, more than anything else, allowed them to put a plan into action that would allow them to steal Armenian assets by removing the people. At the base, it was theft. Now, if Turks had really wanted to do that, they had almost 900 years where it could have been done, but it did not. Only when the empire was overtaken by a group of thugs, who again, were largely non-Turkish, did it happen. Yes, they were able to mobilize a largely uneducated population to do their dirty work, but the brains at the top are the key here. I'd submit that the Turks were not that stupid to kill the birds who laid the golden eggs. Only those who wanted to steal Armenian land and wealth for themselves would come up with that kind of scheme. And remember, it was all done behind the back of the Sultan....who would have opposed vehemently it if he had known of the plan or the final outcome.
It is remarkable that in your last post you have not even used the word Genocide, karekin. It also shows you don't know one bit about Sultan Hamid (was he Albanian too?), about the massacres of 1894 and 1896, about Adana in 1909, about all these "ethnic turks" (including you, perhaps?), that willingly took part in the carnage. Where have you been all these years, karekin? Reading turkish propaganda only?
You know, Avo, not every Armenian drinks the hate flavored kool-aid, thankfully. What is your point, exactly? Of course there was a genocide, of course it was orchestrated by the CUP (who were from Salonkia, and were not Turks...do some digging, you'll find it), of course Abdul Hamid (whose grandmother was Armenian) conducted massacres. What you fail to realize is that anyone, anywhere can be an awful human being....it happens everyday on the streets of that democratic paradise, America. You insist on throwing around the word 'Turk' as if it is an insult. How pathetic. Who knows? You may have Turkish blood running in your veins. If your family comes from Anatolia, I'm very sure your ancestors spoke Turkish quite fluently. Several million citizens of Turkey today have a combined Armenian and Turkish heritage. Who do they belong to? My duty is to truth, not to mudslinging or insults. Khlej mart es, Avo...keedes? Sood eh, sood eh, sood eh...guh haskenas? Amen paan sood eh.
You deserve every drop of turkish blood you may have running in you, kakrekin. My ancestors, from Kilikia and Western Armenia (your "anatolia") indeed, spoke turkish very fluently as they did Armenian and I salute all of our survivors who only spoke turkish, who were orphaned in the Genocide and who built the schools (which, to judge from your pathethic Armenian, you have not attended, obviously, or if you did, you probably wasted your time trying to catch flies, an endeavour you are pursuing now running after every little turk who says a couple of nice words to us and sends on our way after patting our back). I, and many Armenians like me, expect turkey to recognize the Genocide: that's it, "We, turkey, recognize the Armenian Genocide". Yet, even the nicer among your turkish friends --an honourable exception made of Dr Taner Akcam and a few others, and I am not sure I would include in this list Mr Cemal or Mr Pamuk, regardless of their merits in other fields or endeavours-- urge us for patience (patience!), urge us to "understand" how upset the turks get when reminded of the genocide and the bloodied soil and the unburied bodies they have built their houses and mosques upon --so on top of being patient we have to mince words and try not to hurt the feelings of this obviously extremely sensitive people-- how attached turks are to the land (no kidding! Another thing we have in common with them! We too are attached to our lands and to our Ararat! As much as you probably are to wherever is your little or big abode, karekin). It is really beyond the point what's the fate of turks of mixed ancestry. You may want to know that your friends the turks, even today among the older generation, they call the Armenian women forcibly "married off" to turks as "kılıç artığı". You know what that means? Maybe you do, but others in this forum don't: It means "the leftover on the sword". Or, in Armenian (which you probably need to brush off) "Սուրին վրայի աւելցուքը". You know what it refers to, right? So yes, there are some nice turks who say a couple of words of consolation, and there are a few who took to the streets to grieve the murder of Hrant Dink, and tens of thousands take to the streets to celebrate, or the police take a picture with Dink's murderer displaying the turkish flag: doesn't that remind you of some other photo ops that date back to 1915? I tell you this: when turks like Cemal or others say nice words of condolence, I say "thank you for your kind words" and get back to business. If we had the defeatist attitude you advocate ("turkey is big and I and Sinan are little", for example) for the last 94 years, these Cemals, Pamuks and others wouldn't care to say not even these few words of consolation that make you rave about the brotherhood of nations. Go back to the kitchen and help your wife with the dolma for the guests you are having over for dinner on thanksgiving (and having perhaps your favorite dish, turkey).
Best,
Avo
PS: What's "khlej"? Խլե՞ճ: Are you trying to say խլէզ? (If you don't read Armenian, that's "khlez") Look it up in the dictionary, if you have one, and you will find out your description. Լաւագոյն մաղթանքներ, ընկեր:
This is a very biased report. Let's not forget the occupation of Azeri lands and millions of Azeri refugees who had to flee Karabakh because of Armenian agression. Also, Khojaly genocide - massacre of Azeri people during the Karabakh war. There is ALWAYS two sides to the story, but this article only shows one side. Let's be objective and fair.
Dave.
Excellent article dear Marga. I read Cemal's article and while his statements may appear outwardly frank, they are highly insufficient and do not even scratch the surface of what Turks must do to learn about what their forefathers partook in over 90 years ago.
Avo, you sure seem good at vomiting a lot of hatred around ! First of all, I don't think anybody who had anything to do with what you call genocide is alive now. So, there is no chances of punishing the perpetrators. Then, who the hell are you puking at ?
Secondly, someone who reads all these will inevitably think that the Diaspora has nothing in common other than the genocide and if the genocide issue is in one way or another "shelved", you will have nothing to hold onto. If your Armenian identity is this "thin", you better start worrying about it.
And lastly, justice should apply to everyone. Armenians, Turks, American Indians, Circassians, African Negro slaves, Jews, Palestinians etc. Unless you come up with a plan to deliver justice to all, your self-centered cries will not produce fruit because they stink of egoism.
TO: Armenian Weekly, if what I wrote in my previous post was incorrect, you would not have removed it. The truth is out there, most of Lebanese Armenians know about the past.
OK, Avo, once again you called a fellow Armenian a Turk, and are desperately trying to belittle or frighten those who don't agree with your childish and elementary assessment of events etc etc. The strange thing about Armenian Weekly is this: If you don't agree with their political idiology, your post is yanked. But, when young emotionally disturbed kids like Avo, who might serve them as a "foot soldier" in the future running into the mine fields singing "Bank Ottoman kravadze .........." then their post is left intact. It is very strange indeed. Hitler and Stalin did the same thing: Remove the intellectuals, and let hooligans stay. What good are intellectuals, they would not run into the mine fields, but uneducated, sorr, half-educated foot soldiers will...for the motherland.
Who is this kid, Avo?
I am neutral here, I am neither a Turk nor an Armenian.
I have, however, read Mike Sinans post, and nowhere did I read him claiming that he, Mike Sinan, was a "direct descendant" of this great Armenian architect who served the Ottoman empire.
I am an admirer of Sinans works, and I too heard, from a Turkish guide, that Sinan was Armenian by birth. So, it strikes me strange when an Armenian man, Avo, questions Sinans ethnicity, and there, in Turkey, we have Turkish guides, affirming to us that he, architect Sinan, is indeed Armenian by birth.
And Avo, listen from a stranger, your posts are full of childish Innuendos, and tons of poisonous hatred. You should thank Arm. Weekly for allowing your totally garbage filled posts. Shame on you from an Italian who loves Armenian architecture.
Armenians, need to get specific as to what they actually seek from the on-going process of Armenian-Turkish "reconciliation".
The basic minimum that would seem to suffice for most Genocide survivors and their descendants would be the "right of return" to their ancestral lands in present-day Turkey.
It would behoove all those who find it necessary to do so to get their so-called leaders to get serious about repatriation, and not to constantly mouth generalities about "our lands".
Critics should direct their anger towards the traditional parties who have done precious little in this regard. Armenians are fleeing the RoA in droves.
Let those "flag wavers" pack their bags and head off to Yerevan. The journey to Anatolia is shorter from Yerevan than from Paris, New York , or Beirut. Shorter both geographically as well as spiritually and culturally.
First of all it saddens to read comments where fellow Armenians hurt each other, and for what reason?Over the despute of not labeling Turks, not attributing anything negative around the word 'Turk"?How blind can we get if we still can't see the very wise and cunning politics that the so called Turkish intellectuals are playing!Mr. H. Cemal's claim that “We don’t know the history,” and that “We will learn it from you. We are in a learning process. We are coming out from darkness" is just the latest proof of the passive-aggressiveness embedded in the denying strategy towards the Armenian people and International justice.If Mr. Cemal has the right to be called an intellectual, then he has no right to be unaware of the history which is the history when his grandfather was one of the masterminds of the first modern genocide.And his plea for Armenians to teach him and his people history is a pathetic way to lie around.Who in his sane mind has heard of such a suggestion?I believe Mr. Cemal could have opened some books on the subject,if he wanted to satisfy his quest for knowledge around the matter.Or is it that he conducted a life-long research and still did not find a book where the 'beautiful ' and "saintly" work of the Turkish government back in 1915 was not clearly illustrated...The strategy of the Turkish people is to waste time,and meanwhile act as pious people fooling the international family that they are trying to be good with their neighbors,that they have lost their sleep and are trying their best to understand what happened but all that they understand is that over 2 million people were just lost ,that all those churches in Western Armenia have been dropped from the sky,and that all Armenian land was theirs.They are now offering their hand to devour what is left- The Armenian Repulic .God!!!Turks have never dropped their panturanistic dream.They have just changed the ways to act.They can not murder a nation physically now, but they have been blockading RA since 1993.There is no need to list all their deeds now because that will be waste of energy.What do we call this government?A pure-hearted neighbor?There has not been one honest attempt from today's Turkish government.They are Turks and by definition they are barbarians, brutal savages. If they were not so now, they would have apologized and compensated in all possible way for the horrible trauma that they inflicted on the Armenian people .And becuase they don't have anything human in them, they don't know that this pain is passed on to the descendents of the genocide independant of passage of time. This pain won't heal until they do justice.They won't be able to bring the 1.5 victims back, nor they will be able to punish the perpetrators, but they have the power to do JUSTICE,and choose not to be like the perpetrators, their ancestors.
Lastly I would like to clarify one point:Intermarriage between Armenians and Turks did not occur till 1915.Only then the bastards raped and took Armenian women by force.And I am sure,everyone of us knows his/her family tree at least 3 -4 generations back.Then again there is upbringing and its impact... IT is just a waste of time to call each other "Turk" ,instead we should think how to be powerful not to bow infront of anyone.We must dictate the rules, not abide by anyone's rules.
What is the hatred about, Michael and Mike? If you both are Armenian --I don't know and I don't care-- you certainly are doing the Turkish state's bidding when it comes to propaganda and Genocide denial. As I said, just because a turk expresses some words of sympathy I am not going to give up my rights to reparations. I will say, "Thank you for your kind words" --read my post-- and then get back to business, which is putting pressure on Turkey to recognize the Genocide. An unpunished Turkey is a country rewarded for the Genocide. It means, for Turkey, that Genocide pays, in the same way that the blockade paid, with Serzh Sargsyan going begging the turks to open the border for trade. Let's see and wait where all of this will lead us to. The Turks are learning the lesson: we exterminated them in Western Armenia, it went unpunished and unrecognized, we blockaded their country and they are coming begging to us to open the border so they can buy cigarettes and furniture, and they will know that their bloody treatment of Armenians for seven centuries is paying off and that they can resume it at any point. I'll wait and see. Just because three or four Turkish intellectuals are saying nice words --the kind you say at a funeral-- Armenians are not going to give up their rights to reparations and to what belongs to them. In any case, the emotionally disturbed are those who after their own people was exterminated --again, if you armenian-- their own family was murdered and their lands were taken, are ready to make peace with the unrepentant and unpunished perpetrator. That is really sick: it's worse than cowardice. Guess what will be the lesson learned by the Turkish state. Now go back to what you do --whatever it is that you do, writing it most certainly not what you do for a living-- and do not insult our memories anymore. If you have no qualms about leaving your martyrs unburied and recognized in your own usurped land then go out and find where you have left your soul. Oh, and as a Cemal would say, "My sympathies for your loss, the 1,200 Sinans murdered in the Genocide".
Ciao Marco Craxi, our Italian friend reading the rebuttal of Taner Akcam to Khatchig Mouradian's comments on Cemal! I celebrate your broad intests not only in Armenian architecture but on anything regarding Armenian issues. Who said anything against Sinan the Great? There is this Mike Sinan here, that's all, who brought up the name of Sinan to claim he is of Armenian descent. I'm sorry for mistakenly saying Mike Sinan was claiming to be his descendant. This Sinan obviously is not a descendant of the Great one.
It is indeed sad to see this 'Avo' person leveling what he sees as insults to those who would like to have an intelligent discussion, and uses the word 'genocide' as a defense. Mekhk eh. I should not have to justify my thoughts, feelings and opinions in the face of such unthoughtful comments, but will share with our friend Avo that my grandfather, educated at Yeprad College, was orphaned along with his brothers. My grandmother's uncle was killed with everyone else, probably shortly after returning in 1914 to sell the family property. So, I don't need lessons from Avo or anyone else on what happened in 1915. I know it very well. The issue is really, how should Armenians, both in the diaspora and in Armenia best move forward, not backward. The world is changing and clinging to old, outdated thinking and ideologies that have not served us well in the past is counterproductive, and as we've seen on this page, can actually be destructive. If Armenians cannot be civil to each other and respect each other, then there is very little hope for a positive future.
Capuano offers lip service fooling Massachusetts Armenian National Committee
As an American and a resident of Massachusetts's 8th Congressional District, I attended a public forum given by U.S. Representative Michael Capuano on February 24, 2007 at Somerville City Hall. The event was videotaped, and the audience of about 90 people was allowed to ask questions.
After publicly thanking Mr. Capuano for co-sponsoring the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.R. 106), I asked if there was more he could do to work for its passage.
"Nothing", he replied.
Capuano did say that the Genocide was a fact and that he did not know why Turkey would not acknowledge it. He stated, however, that he had "no problem with Turkey" and that it was an important ally in a strategic location.
I reminded him that Turkey had not allowed U.S. troops to transit its territory at the start of the Iraq war in 2003.
Capuano countered that that was a very small and unimportant example. Germany, he added, had not sent troops to Iraq, yet was a good ally.
After I remarked that, "Genocide denied is genocide repeated," Capuano asked, "Well, so?"
When the forum ended and Capuano was leaving, I approached him and shook his hand. If Germany denied the Holocaust, I asked, "would you do business with it?" He said, "Yes" - repeating it twice for emphasis.
Capuano clearly pays no more than lip service to Armenian-American issues, and his unqualified support for Turkey is disturbing. I question whether he cares that his district - previously represented in Congress by J.F.K., Tip O'Neil, and Joe Kennedy - is and has long been home to many thousands of Armenian-Americans.
I suspect that many other Congressmen and elected officials are, like Capuano, fooling their Armenian constituents by doing little more than occasionally giving a speech on April 24 and co-sponsoring a Genocide resolution. With rare exceptions, they will not expend any political capital whatsoever, or make any real effort for us.
To the readers of the Armenian Weekly, I would ask that you stop Capuano from getting away with paying mere lip service to Armenian-American issues?
(P.S. Capuano's response to this letter follows.)
Berge Jololian
Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the letter submitted by one of my constituents. I have actively supported the Armenian Genocide Resolution since being elected to Congress and am hopeful that this year the U.S. House of Representatives will have an opportunity to record U.S. indignation at such a sad and shocking historic tragedy.
Additionally, I have traveled to Armenia to learn more about its history and culture, and have met with many groups and individuals over the years to talk about issues important to the Armenian
community.
I have also traveled to Nagorno-Karabakh and have brought the Armenian government's position on this territory to the President of Azerbaijan. There are persisting tensions between Armenia and
Azerbaijan and I believe those tensions cannot be resolved without engaging both parties.
I understand that recognition of the genocide remains a controversial issue in some circles and among many Turkish citizens. The Turkish government has suggested that passage of the Armenian
Genocide Resolution will harm relations between the U.S. and Turkey and could jeopardize the cooperation our nations have enjoyed as allies. I do believe we must maintain a strong and respectful dialogue with Turkey. Turkey's cooperation will be essential if Iraq is to be stable after U.S. troops are withdrawn.
In no way does my commitment to cooperation with the Turks diminish my commitment to the Armenian community. I firmly believe that we must correct historical inaccuracies and properly record the U.S. position on the Armenian Genocide while we continue to work with the democratic
government of Turkey.
I regret if any of my comments during this particular community meeting were misinterpreted or misunderstood. Genocide is never acceptable and genocide or Holocaust denial is contemptible. We must never forget any historic genocide and we must strive to prevent it from happening wherever we can. I am working diligently to end the atrocities in Darfur, a cause to which so many Armenian-Americans have so generously contributed.
I thank you for the opportunity to express my views and I look forward to working with the community in the future.
Very truly yours,
Michael E. Capuano
Member of Congress
Karekin, Thank you for sharing your family's history, tragic as it is. Your family history is our nation's history and I need to add no more, then. See it for yourself, and see for yourself who the Turks are. There are nice individuals among Turks as there among every nation on earth, as there are unpleasant Armenians as there are among any nation. Our issue is not with Turkish individuals, good or bad: It really is naïve to say "such and such said there was a Genocide", "Cemal expressed regret over what happened", "A Turkish guide acknowledged Sinan was of Armenian descent". So what? It's like a guide in Mexico acknowledging that the people who built the pyramids were of Mayan or Aztecan descent. Fine, then? Our conflict is with the Turkish state and its Ottoman predecessors, which have consistently been our enemy: they subjugated us, they threw us back into the dark ages --why do you think by the early 20th century most of our people had been reduced to the sorry state they were in, why do you think they decided that enough was enough and took up arms against this oppression-- they massacred us, constantly, they finally exterminated us, then Mustafa Kemal was on his way to obliterate the nascent Republic of Armenia, to finish off what was left of 1915, then they imposed the blockade on Armenia in 1993 --which continues to this day-- in solidarity with Azerbaijan, Armenia's enemy, when their kin began to be beaten in Karabagh. What do you think the Azeris were doing to the Armenians in Karabagh? What do you think they did to us in Sumgait and Baku? Do you remember Türgut Özal saying in 1993 saying "We have to show our teeth to the Armenians"? Do you think for one second that he didn't know what he was talking about? He knew we would see it with a historical perspective. As I see it, Turkey --the Turkish state-- has not ceased to be Armenia's enemy. I welcome any acknowledgment of the Genocide by any Turkish individual but I say "Thank you" and that is not nearly enough. The recognition of the Genocide is not only a moral demand. It is in Armenia's most vital security interests to have the Turkish state recognize the Genocide. A Genocide unpunished is a Genocide rewarded, and just because we are appeasing the Turks they will not cease to be our enemies or, for that matter, the allies of our enemies on our eastern border. We cannot renounce our rigths just because a few or a lot of Turkish individuals are saying the right things or things that sound like it. We need to demand that Turkey acknowledges its crime for our most vital security interests. They will probably always be a bigger nation than ours. Even Movses Khorenatsi wrote that we were "a small nation" but that we have many acts of courage that deserve to be written about. That's our challenge, being a small nation and fighting to survive against formidable enemies, and live and multiply, as you may know from Baruyr Sevak's poem. Just because we are a small nation we must not give up. Always, I repeat --always-- circumstances have been overwhelmingly adverse for Armenians: we didn't secure Armenia, whatever we have --but we have it-- or Karabagh, or survive the Genocide by acknowledging the massive odds against us. We did despite the massive odds against us. And the fight goes on, and not because we chose it.
Dave, I'm confident the only reason why you posted your message to draw some kind of emotionally charged response from the Armenian readership. Yes, I will agree with you that there are two sides and Armenians have been hearing this for nearly 100 years--0n both the Artsakh and Armenian genocide issues. But the two sides are not about opinion...it's about fact vs. fiction. First off, to call the lands "Azeri" is preposterous. Why, because it was handed to them by the soviets in 1920? Armenians have maintained a majority presence and lay historical claim to the Karabagh/Artsakh region dating back over 2000 years! Therefore, the proper factual characterization would be that the Artsakh war was a liberation of occupied territories from the Azeris. Secondly, you so quickly invoke the term "genocide" with regard to the Khojaly tragedy, which was undoubtedly a tragedy considering the innocent Azeri civilians who perished in the midst of a military conflict with Armenian forces. However, would you call the killing of Armenians in Sumgait and Baku "genocide" or lets go back in history and ask the same of the 1.5 million Armenians who perished at the hands of the Ottoman Turks? I don't want to speak for you but my guess is that you would not--despite the fact that in both circumstances, the Armenians were subjects/citizens/civilians and not engaged in military conflict. Dave, you can't have it both ways. So let's stop playing semantic games and be honest about historical facts.
Wow, Marga. This is the last nail in the coffin of pseudo-intellectuals and their discourse. This is ourstanding stuff! I am so impressed by some of the Armenian voices in this forum! The Hrant Dink portion of your article is a killer! Great job! The Weekly seems to have a "nose" for great writers... I look forward to more articles! (sorry for the disorganized thoguhts)
OK, Avo. I think we may have bridged a gap here, which is good, and both of us understand that the issue is a mindset or a political group. I think we may agree that it does none of us a service to bash Armenians. Like it or not, we are all on the same team, and should act that way. That said, perhaps the disagreement is on how to change the direction of things for the better. My concern is that demanding anything, or jumping up and down screaming insults usually does not result in the desired result from the target party. No one is saying, 'give up', but there are better, smarter and more effective ways of making a point or achieving a goal, and these should be used. It has been shown over and over again throughout the world that dialogue and understanding are the best ways of doing this. As Mr. Sinan suggests, all the patriotic songs (and I've sung them too) have not produced much in the course of almost 100 years. Time to change tactics and learn from this.
OK, let's all go back to the main subject, and that "was" the help rendered to us by some righteous Turks, pushing the Genocide recognition. Some here painted these Turks as "agents" working for the interest of Turkey and its government. I see no reason why we should not exploit that service, albeit indirect, for our interests. If some here think that these people are just trying to mislead and derail our political objectives, then they are mistaken, because our resolve to get the Genocide recognized is much stronger now, than it was 80 years ago. Having said that, we should always be humbled to recieve the support of righteous Turks. Let us not kid ourselves, not all 60 million Turks in Turkey are blind to the Genocide. Why would Orhan Pamuk or Dr. Akcam talk and preach about the Genocide, what's in it for them? They have repeatedly were/are threatened day in and day out with DEATH, are called Traitors by the Turkish government and the people. Maybe Orhan Pamuk was paid million of dollars by the Armenians to betray his own people? I don't think so. I strongly believe that these people are genuinely trying to have the Genocide recognized.
As for our lands, we should have been united when Tigranes II was fighting the Romans. But as always is the case, some Armenian Nakharars along with Tigran Jr. rebelled and betrayed the King. The same exact things have happened all along our history, and because of this "there are no foot soldiers left in Armenia, all want to become generals" mentality, the enemy was/is able to crush us every single time. Sadly, even today, we are fighting each other, this forum is our witness, we don't discuss..we fight. If someone does not agree with my understanding of past and present happenings, then by all means,and in a civilized way, prove it for me otherwise. So, to conclude, let us forget these lands, realistically, Turks/Kurds outnumber us 20 million to ZERO. Because 100 or so Armenians(out of about 9 million Armenians worldwide) want to return and claim these lands, we will not jeopardize the recognition of the Genocide for land reparation, which is a far fetched and almost impossible dream for us all.
All right, so you suggest that we give up our rights to our lands, to compensation and to Genocide recognition even before Turkey --ie, the Turkish state, NOT some intellectuals who have said a few nice things, none has gone to the lenghts Taner Akcam has-- BEFORE Turkey has agreed to recognize the Genocide. So, we give up our rights as a sign of good will. What comes next? Let's suppose the Turks say, "Thank you for dropping these demands" and they go ahead and do not recognize the Genocide. Moreover, with that obstacle out of the way, the Turks may demand --as they are already doing-- that we withdraw from Karabagh or they would reimpose the blockade, which is still standing, anyway, but let's assume for argument's sake that they lift it. What comes next? We should withdraw, I guess, following this logic: they are more, the issue is contentious, we don't have the population to inhabit these lands, we have to overcommit defense resources best applied to trade with Turkey, etc. All perfectly reasonable, right? One day the Turks and Azeris may expect us --"expect" is an understatement, anyway, that I'm using just not to hurt pro-Turkish sympathies-- to give up Zankezur, because Nakhichevan --which used to be Armenian and we gave up because again, we were too few and far away there, etc.-- is separated from Azerbaijan and isolated. If we don't, they threaten military action. We shouldn't fight, should we, for that little tongue of land? Why waste all of these Armenian lives for a barren land?
All right, we applaud these Turkish intellectuals for expressing some sympathy for us. What comes next? We pray that the Turks reconsider and say, "OK, we agree there was a Genocide and we recognize it if you give up the demand of your lands"? The administration of Serzh Sargsyan has just done that with these protocols, or it intends to do so anway, and it has repeatedly said --both Sargsyan and his foreign minister Edward Nalbandian-- that Armenia has no territorial demands whatsoever from Turkey? Has Turkey inched forward just one bit towards recognizing the Genocide? Not even by far, unless of course you entertain different information in this regard.
Anybody is free to decide whatever to do with his own rights perhaps. Perhaps if, God forbid, criminals killed all your family, stole your property and sat in your house --which is what Turks did during the Armenian Genocide-- you would simply acknowledge the overwhelming superiority of criminals and go away peacefully? God forbid something like this happens, and I am not being ironic. You surely wouldn't give it up, would you? If you would, then I'm confident most people in the world wouldn't. That goes against the most basic human rights and dignity. This happened to us collectively as a nation, and even if we don't have the force, the power or the numbers to get these lands back and even if it is not realistic, these lands were stolen from us by a gigantic act of crime, and this first has to be acknowledged and then we sit down to talk. Germany was certainly emptied of Jews after the Holocaust but the German state is doing to this day everything within its means to compensate survivors, victims and their families, returning every property as well. It is not an act of kindness to give up one's rights. It is an act of of giving up one's dignity, and that only feeds predator states like Turkey.
This was a great event and is always a great cause to donate to. I hope the money raised will be put into effect soon, so far we have only dreamed about how nice Shushi can look, now we will see the reality!
Avo, why is it you always get personal? People who don't have anything meaningful to say, get personal. Kindly stick to the subject matter, and discuss this extremely important Genocide in a more civilized way. It is generally accepted, by the world Psychiatric association, that people who get angry and take issues on a personal level, and attack others on a personal level, ignoring the norms of civilized manners, are considered to have mental and psychiatric issues. Every time someone disagrees with you, you virulently attack them and try to belittle them.
My advice for you? Grow up and deal with your adversaries in a civilized and cordial manner.
Mr. Jololian's bravely confronting Capuano brought to light Capuano's true feelings - at least at that time though probably now too - namely, Capuano gives no more than "lip service" (to use Jololian's phrase) to Armenian American issues.
Let me also remind readers that during the long and hard-fought battle to have the Armenian Heritage Park constructed on Boston's Rose Kennedy Greenway, Capuano was no help whatsoever (and neither was the late Senator Kennedy). Capuano even told the Boston Globe that he thought it was somehow unfair of Armenians to get a spot on the Greenway. How's that for being "friendly" to Armenians?
Keep in mind that the ostensible reason was that no other ethnic group was to have a place on the Greenway (not true at all) and that if the Armenian Park's plaque were to "memorialize" the genocide victims this would somehow violate the rules of the Greenway (also not true at all).
If you wish to read more about this sad chapter of lies uttered by Capuano and other ostensible "friends" of Armenians, please read the following investigative piece here:
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/opinions/x179810955/index.html (click, or cut and paste this URL)
By the way, the most vociferous opponent, if you read the above article about the Armenian Park, was one "Peter Meade," a top member of the genocide-denying Anti-Defamation League.
Marco, I do not know what the "world Psychiatric association" says on people who have difficulty understanding anything in English --I understand it's not your mother tongue, but still-- so strongly objecting to things that are not personal. What is so personal above for you? Are you offended by the fact that I expect recognition by the Turkish state, as I say in the posting above? Or that Turkey expects Armenians to withdraw from Karabagh? Why would that be personal to you, who claims to be "neutral" in all this but whose blood is obviously boiling for saying a few unflattering facts about Turkey? Personal? Are you related to Recep Tayip Erdogan? Abdullah Gül? Ilhan Aliyev? Why are you so offended that I disagree with Sinan, the one we have here, not the Great one? I repeat, I find it extremely commendable that an Italian architect is so ardently interested in Armenian affairs, and not only that but also psychiatric issue, so your intellectual horizon is wide indeed, almost
Now, thanks for your comments on the "world Psychiatric association". Check out also your case with them, what they have to say about an "Italian" (as you claim to be) who comes lecturing Armenians on how to handle the Genocide issue. Are you offended that nobody cares about your touching comment about the Turkish guide that acknowledged that Sinan the Great was of Armenian birth? What a great man (or woman) this Turkish guide! You know, once in Villa Giulia, in Rome, an Italian guide confessed that the Sarcofago degli Sposi had been made by Etruscan (Not Roman, not Italian!) sculptors. Wow! Isn't that brave? I gather you know what I'm talking about, since you are both an Italian and an architect. Now, you, who are civilized, what do you advise us to do? Drop our demands? Go back and check with the "world Psychiatric association", and since you are there, have them run a quick check up on you. Buona sera, our "Italian architect friend" (you know, there's surprisingly nothing in Italian or English about any Mario Craxi architect: nobody is obliged in a forum to disclose his identity but I certainly hope you are not falsely impersonating anyone else; that is dishonest and may indicate some psychiatric and mental issue you should address immediately, if that is the case; I'm sure it is not). Now go to bed and have a good sleep.
First off, this discussion forum isn’t about the authenticity of your Armenian-ness, Turkish-ness, Kurdish-ness or what have you. I don’t want to believe that Henry and I are the only two that can keep a civilized discussion despite our differing opinions. I can’t say I’m proud of some people here who seek to antagonize each other at the expense of fruitful discussion. I have no doubt, that there could very well be Armenians, Turks, Kurds, Jamaicans or Sri Lankans posing as whatever they want to be on this site in order to push their agenda. But we shouldn’t allow this reality to undermine discussion over the merits of an argument. Of course we don’t agree on everything. That is a sure sign of a vigorous and healthy group of free thinking people. And that is what I am proud of.
Thanks for your reply Henry and pardon the belated response.
You too have analyzed what I have said within your own static framework of geo-political understanding. Everything is negotiable in the diplomatic maneuvering of states. This you can’t ignore. Our wily neighbors would like us to believe that everything will remain the same in the region only to further paint a doom and gloom scenario of consequences that would undermine the RA’s viability if we don’t heed their suggestions. Negotiation depends on so many different variables and factors that such a static assessment of the status quo from your own bird’s eye view (it’s not a flawed view; it’s just one static view at this particular moment in time) may overlook possibilities that exist now and in the future with the land reparation card still in our hands.
I would be VERY weary of tossing away a critical point of leverage in developing a set of reparation protocols or justice protocols in potential post-recognition justice negotiations with Turkey. Who can predict what integral role the land reparations card may play in the development of our negotiating strategy or BATNA with Turkey? Why make a decisive decision to sell ourselves short or accept the shortEST end of the stick by forfeiting this point of leverage now?
With reference to the ICJ matter: Who said the RA can’t sit down and negotiate a set of Justice Protocols with a Turkish government that has recognized the Armenian Genocide to determine the particulars of a reparations package? And why assume that any astute political party can’t influence or help craft the development of a set of justice protocols in the future? Henry, you ask “what concrete steps any organization has taken to fulfill this dream of a “united Armenia?”” Yes, I agree, unfortunately little has been done on this front by any one political party. But let me tell you this, there are many that are working diligently to be part of the process that rectifies this shortcoming. To throw away demands for land reparations right now would be incredibly shortsighted.
I agree with you Henry in that you don’t seem to be willing to assign “our people a less deserving piece of the justice pie” at all. You seem to have negated the justice pie all together. Please bare with me.
In the spirit of using telling analogies let’s say that a close acquaintance steals something from you for whatever reason (let’s say an iPod ok). He or she is eventually caught. They confess to the crime and apologize. BUT, they don’t return your property (your iPod). You now see this person walking everyday along campus with your property. In fact, he or she will even have the decency to stop and chat with you for a while about life, studies and the prospects for a job after graduation before scurrying off to class. All this, with your stolen iPod still in their hands.
If the crime of genocide is considered in its legal definition as it is applied to the Armenian Genocide case, then justice for this crime can also be considered within similar legal parameters.
Is the confession and apology for stealing the ipod a form of justice in a strictly legal sense? No, it is merely an acknowledgement of wrongdoing. A common fallacy amongst some in our community is to misattribute the recognition of a crime as constituting a form of justice. This couldn’t be further from the truth. In the case of the Armenian Genocide, there neither has been a confession nor an apology, let alone any consideration of any form of reparations.
Many people, including myself, see this misattribution as dangerous and preposterous. I appreciate that you don’t think people who hold these views are deranged, cowardly or anything related. I respect your opinion on this matter Henry but would like to know more about its premises. What I’d appreciate your clarification on (with the above mentioned in mind) is why you believe holding on to legitimate land claims is detrimental for Armenia and Armenians and what you think will result (benefits and disadvantages) from forfeiting these lands for Armenia and Armenians? I would also like to clarify for all here that land reparation demands are not based on emotional pie in the sky dreams. They are based on the merit of legal property rights that are documented under the names of our ancestors.
Now, Mike, in your latest post you ask “Why would Orhan Pamuk or Dr. Akcam talk and preach about the Genocide, what’s in it for them?” I respect these esteemed Turkish scholars for their courage, wisdom and foresight in recognizing the Armenian Genocide and discussing it in public at the risk of yes, their very lives. They represent enlightened men of the Turkish nation and scholars that will one day be revered across Turkey as Ataturk is today. However, I also understand that these scholars, as concerned Turkish citizens, have much at stake in seeing Turkey come to terms with its past. Talking about the Armenian Genocide is their right and speaking and writing truthfully about this history is what you would expect from historians exploring Ottoman history. In addition, speaking truthfully about the Armenian Genocide and other secrets of Turkish society will serve as a vehicle in furthering their goals to build a new civil society in Turkey. In other words, no one coerced them into talking about the Armenian Genocide.
Mike you seem deadest on labeling land reparations a “farfetched and almost impossible dream”. I respect your opinion and hope you do mine void of any pejorative remarks referencing “Peter Pan”, “Disneyland” or “Fantasyland” as you’ve made above. The reason why I would contest your logic in forfeiting land reparations is because I believe you would be ceding your rights to your land for NOTHING IN RETURN. In essence you would be dangerously ASSUMING that the ‘good will’ of forfeiting land will be reciprocated for recognition of the Armenian Genocide or something else. There is absolutely no evidence that indicates forfeiting our rightful legal land claims will help:
a) Secure Armenia’s borders;
b) Ensure genocide is not repeated;
c) Assure the safety of Armenians living in Turkey (like Sevan Nishanyan etc.);
d) Guarantee Turkey’s recognition of the Armenian Genocide;
e) Assure the safety of courageous writers like Orhan Pamuk and Dr. Ackam.
Instead the only evidence thus far seems to indicate the exact opposite result irrespective of whether our demands for land are forfeited. Hrant Dink’s murder, the continued threats against Armenian and Turkish writers in Turkey and the mere fact that Article 301 is still being employed against those who choose to speak out against state sanctioned murder. If the Turkish government had 1 ounce of respect or remorse for the now assassinated Hrant Dink, Article 301 would have been rescinded the day of his murder.
Why do you insist on justifying more concessions to Turkey when we have already conceded 1.5 million martyrs with nothing in return for over 90 years? No recognition (It’s been 90 years), no respect (don’t kid yourself the majority of Turks unfortunately still consider us infidels), and no justice ---land repartitions--- (now you’re saying we’ll just relinquish that little detail ourselves…). So Mike what your advocating is to give up some more of our rights (cede our land) and see what happens…?
Karekin, change our strategy and tactics yes, but NOT our goals (land reparations etc.). Perhaps we can achieve those same goals with different yet more effective strategies and tactics. How can you justify changing our goals when only one strategy has been tried?
In short, it is my contention that for the Republic of Armenia (RA) and Armenians’ to throw away our demands for land reparations now would be reckless and imprudent at best. I believe that our collective Armenian voices over 90 odd ears have been the impetus for the beginning of slow change in Turkey (our gift to the Turkish people). It has been our voices for over 90 years calling for genocide recognition that has ultimately empowered the Orhan Pamuk’s and the Taner Ackam’s towards further introspection of Ottoman history and the truth.
Avo...attacking people or their ideas instead of actually discussing their merits or not indicates a certain amount of frustration. I suspect that frustration comes from the realization that you are actually quite powerless to change the course of history, that Turkey won and Armenians lost, that nothing you, or I or anyone else does is going to change a thousand years of history. Maybe you have heard people suggest that Armenians would have been much better off building fortresses instead of all those churches. However, the issue is deeper than that. Armenians, who are the products of a very ancient eastern tradition, believed in tolerance and acceptance, perhaps more than their adversaries. They believed that all humans deserved respect as they were all 'divine' beings, (not unlike the Christ of their religious tradition or even the Buddhist tradition), and this always made them less war-like. For instance, the Armenian church does not believe in missionary activity...they respect all religions as equals. There is both good and less good in this approach, but this is the approach to the world, nonetheless. With that in mind, it might be helpful (and calming) to accept reality as it is and work with it, not against it. Nothing good can be accomplished by maintaining a constant state of combativeness, it is a waste of time, energy and resources (real and emotional). Whether it is a nation or a person, an aggressive stance puts everyone into a defensive posture that precludes a positive interaction. Today's Armenia is incredibly vulnerable and can barely maintain itself. Would you want to risk everything by asking Armenia to be uncooperative with its neighbors? It has done very well by maintaining positive relations with Iran, Russia and others. If it can include Turkey in this loop and can discuss things openly, there are many positive benefits that will accrue. Of course, it should remain vigilant, but despite the criticisms being thrown at them from the Diaspora, they're not stupid...they're thinking of the long-term survival of the people and the nation.
Excellent articale ,I thank you Marga and The Weekly.
Bravo Margo Serovpian, ca cest tres bien fait et j'espere que vous continuez a ecrire.
Engeragan Cherm Parevnerov
Dear Margo ,
Turkish political approaches to political issues is very intricate .They have yesterday decided(in their Maejlis) Parliament that they would admit non-muslim delegagtes to same and...
IMMEDIATELY DECLARED THAT JOURNALIST-ACTIVIST HRANT DINK´S WIFE WILL BE ADMITTED IN SAID CHAMBER , as MP,member of Parliametn(Mejlis)
This, in light of a Eiropean Commission meeting soon to review admittance of great Turkey into the EU....
Fast, they act fast don´t they.While these "Peace -seeking Emissaries" TRY TO BLOW DUST into the beautifull eyes of Armenians-The Diaspora of same , mainly and in exstension to RA
While I do respect what our public-that is those who can write such articles as you very well do-are kept busy with such discussions...
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Karekin, Your views and mine on engaging people on their ideas differ. I have been respectful with you once you told your family history, and I took it at face value. I have noticed, and certainly I hope this is not your case, that the phoneys in fora usually throw in a lot of "facts" and "family history" to prove their assumed identity, which is dishonest, saying, for example, that their family lost 1,200 members --quite an extended clan, unprecedented in the history of the Armenian Genocide-- or mentioning their survivors educational background: I hope you have contributed all the information on your grandfather towards Armenian Genocide research. Very, very few people know of their ancestry educational background: a few other things don't add up either, but then again, these were times of turmoil and information that has reached us is imperfect, at best.
One word on your comments. Drop the attempts at pseudo psychoanalysis here about the sources of frustration, etc. because there is no frustration in me. There is simply just fun I'm having --and I am having a ton of fun, laughing har-- seeing a lot of people with their blood boiling over the fact that Armenians cannot be fooled with a few kind words from a bespectacled, smiling Turkish "intellectual", who happens to be the grandson of the biggest mass murderers in history. I am simply saying, and I will repeat so everybody finally gets it, "Thank you, now we want Turkey to recognize the Genocide". The fact that this is not being addressed, neither by nor anyone else who is simply happy with a few statements of condolence, is highly suggestive.
Finally, I notice your immense reluctance to call the Genocide by its name; I think you have used it once or twice, and once, certainly, saying that I'm shielding behind the word 'genocide'. Now, you know, I have had very powerful arguments with Armenians who disparate points of view but not even the most conciliatory among them weaves his ideas the way you do, none among them writes Genocide between quote marks, none says that Armenia is on its final throes of existance --that's hardly true after Armenians beat the hell out of Azerbaijan, a supposedly more powerful country floating on oil, corruption and ineptitude, and sent them packing from Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh)-- and NO Armenian, no Armenian who has had an Armenian upbringing, would say "Armenia is incredibly vulnerable" (I'm quoting you) because it patently is not. It has withstood and won a war over the turks on its eastern border, and it has withstood a crippling turkish blockade. Now, if it were "incredibly vulnerable", it wouldn't have, would it? None would quote the statistics about the Armenian community of Constantinople having multiplied tenfold. The turks do that very often. It just attracts my attention. "Uncooperative with its neighbors"? Who imposed the blockade on Armenia? Why don't you discuss your views on Karabagh? We should have withdrawn, from your perspective, shouldn't we? Why don't you answer my questions on Zankezur? What should Armenia do? Give in to everything the turks say because they are big and have big teeth like Turgut Ozal's?
One final thing: you are the first Armenian I know, and I am still assuming you are Armenian, who says "Turkey won and Armenians lost". To begin with, a Genocide is a sick notion of victory: the Germans won and the Jews lost, right? Sudan won and Darfur lost, I assume? NO Armenian would say that, with that implicit contempt about our martyrs. We are still standing. We are here. I am here and I speak Armenian, I come from an Armenian family and I have formed an Armenian family and there are millions of us, 94 years after most of our ancestors were exterminated by the turks. turkey didn't win: it stole, it pillaged, it massacred and it's incredibly furious and suffering from huge complexes over the fact that world and their next-door neighbors --three million Armenians, true, much less than the 60 million turks (I'm discounting the kurds from this equation)-- know the truth. And turkey didn't win because Armenia and Armenians exist today and they are still thriving, despite all these difficulties. Since you are a man, and an Armenian one, I can arrange to meet face-to-face and discuss your views on turkish victory over Armenia by way of Genocide frankly. Like a man. Բարեւներ:
In answer to Mike Sinan whom answered Dr. Astarjian, I was flabagasted to hear that we should give up our western lands inside Turkey. The Sevres Treaty is still a valid treaty of which the Allies betrayed us after WWI. Although there are millions of Kurds living on Armenian Territory, they eventually will get their independence inside Turkey & Nothern Iraq. When Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide she will have to make those land teratories in the Sevres Treaty back to Armenia as well as reparations, just as Germany today is still make reparations to the Jews. As far as the millions of Kurds & Turks living on our historic territories they will all be relocated just as those Azeri's were relocated in Artsakh. Armenians must look positive & not look backwards. We must be strong, united, and work together just like the Jews. Never give up and help our Armenian Republic back off on those protocols.
Mihran, for me, one single Armenian in the sea of 9 million, the recognition of the Genocide supercedes all others, land reparations, monetary compensations etc etc.
I honestly believe that, Armenia, the smallest internationally recognized country in the Caucasus, with the smallest population and declining, with a well trained bur small army, surrounded on All sides by enemies, without any natural or natural wealth, population whose standard of living is basically Zero outside of Yerevan(Remember Armenia is Not Yerevan), a country whose wealth is controlled by a few hundred greedy men, a country where political assassinations are a norm of life, a small country with relatively large numbers of political parties with differing political agendas, a country where all three presidents are "alleged" crooks, a country where emigration outward is alarmingly high, a country which basically is bankrupt, a country lacking an adequate air force to protect the regular army in case of hostilities (we cannot rely on 10-20 Russian air force jets, they may as well betray and abandon us), and there are 100 more reasons why it is impossible to get these lands back.
Let me give, if I may, an example: The state of Israel. A small country, 7 million people, enjoying all the might, political and economic, of the USA, a people united like a strong oak tree, powerful militarily(they had 200+ nuclear warheads in 1976, it is estimated that that number has risen to 800), considered to have the best Secret Services agencies in the world (Mossad and Shin Bet are second to none). Now if Armenia was in similar position as the state of Israel, I would not even have asked for this world opinion regarding the Genocide or the land reparations, I would have taken the matter into my own hands and have liberated all our ancestral lands 20 years ago. But unfortunately, our national and ethnic character of disunity, mistrust, political divisiveness which is continueing right to this very moment while I am typing these words, would deny us the pleasure of getting everything we have in sight.
What Armenia and Armenians need is getting rid of all political parties, and forming one political party, in times of danger, Armenia does not have the luxury nor can afford to have 100 political parties that are at each others throats day in and day out.
Why did Strabo write.."the Romans trembled hearing Tigranes name.." because our greatest King, had absolutely no taste for these backstabbing nakharars, he saw them as a stumbling block for Armenias expansion, the same is true for our current day nakharars(political parties) that are doing absolutely nothing but fighting each other. And the enemosity is so deep rooted in our political parties, that when push comes to shove, some parties will betray Armenia and move over to the enemies side...
Thank you and I welcome your comments.
OK Avo...no problem. Let's say Turkey does agree to acknowledge the genocide at some point (which I agree it should do - but realize you can't force that to happen - it has to come from within not from outside)...then what? What will you do? What will Armenia do? Will it solve Armenia's many problems? As for history, Avo...do you realize that the Seljuks were able to conquer Anatolia ONLY because they got help from Armenians, who hated the Byzantine Greeks so much that they worked against them? Of course, Armenians did not lose their language or culture or 4000+ years of history, but they did lose their land...90% of it. That is the fact I was referring to. If you don't think Armenians lost, then what's the problem? If you still don't, go to Turkey and take a look...it will be painfully obvious what Armenians lost. The problem is that you keep accusing people of things that don't exist and insist on treating your fellow Armenians as enemies, because you have no one else available to bash. Amot eh, shad amot eh, and you know it. So cut it out, dude. I can read and write Armenian too...big whoop. Nice thing, ok, but you don't get extra points for that, at least not on this forum.
For sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain.
This is what our political leaders are trying to sell to us......Grandoise and Phony expectations.
Instead of concentrating their efforts on the Genocide.
Bravo Ranchpar, I could not have said it any better. You are so right, and I always thought that my fellow Armenians, will, once in their lifetime, see the "real issues" and the "real geopolitical" situations and alliances, and act accordingly. We all have foolish and unattainable dreams and expectations, the trick is to have these unattainable dreams and far fetched expectations when nobody is watching and listening to you.
First thing first. Let us all unite and work for the recognition of the Genocide, and if righteous Turks want to join our bandwagon, they are welcome with open arms.
Someday we'll look back on all this and plow into a parked car.
Karekin, no one is trying to score extra points. I've been to Turkey three times. All that has confirmed to me is as a big threat to Armenia as it has always been. Yes, there were nice people, very hospitable, there were the filthy ones, the anti-Armenian ones: all sorts. Last time I was there I remember Mein Kampf was the best seller in turkey, and this was in the late nineties. It says a lot about our neighbours. Once the mayor of a little turkish town ordered all the Pamuk books in town to be burned in the main square --after Pamuk said those few things about the "Armenian tragedy"-- and none of his books turned up. It illustrates a bit about this country, doesn't it? We certainly cannot revert the collapse of the Byzantine Empire, yet we have been successful --despite our numbers, despite our limited military strength-- to push the hordes back. So, saying that "turkey won and armenia lost", is not only obscene but also of a very relative value. They wanted, as they still do, off the map, and that is victory. The turkish state is by its very definition anti-Armenian, and while all support from an extremely limited number of individuals is welcome, turkish society is massively anti-Armenian due to their complex of guilt, their criminal past and the fact that they are reminded about it by us. So be it.
So, OK, let's assume you are right: Armenia "lost", by the obscene definitions outlined above; by way of a Genocide, turkey won. Since turks and turkey don't really feel like recognizing the Genocide, because it really bothers them, we give up that too. We stop demanding from abroad, because it has to come from within, which also indicates that you believe that if we hadn't been demanding for this long the Akcams, the Pamuks would suddenly out of the blue be acknowledging it. You think that if it had not been for the outside pressure the Genocide issue would become, out of the blue, an issue among turks, however limited, and however most of them believe it's a lie: in the early seventies, it wasn't even on their radar. That came from the outside pressure.
Anyway, what are you suggesting then we do with the turks? What's your proposal? Instead of venting your frustration with how Armenians are handling this issue try joining any organization and articulate it in a meaningful way. I really don't know what you are after here. I said, and I repeat for the zillionth time: "I welcome all expressions of support by turkish intellectuals" and I thank them, and then I get down to work, which is putting pressure on the turkish state by all available means to recognize it. I really don't understand what you are after: you rubbish the Armenian approach; you say it hasn't worked. Really? When I was little, almost nobody among non-Armenians had even heard about Armenians and the Genocide. We now have put the issue on the agenda. You think that's nothing. So, what should we have done? Just shut up and acknowledge the superiority of force, resources and money of our enemy? I say we achieved all we have despite the massive odds against us. So, what are you suggesting we do? What's your new approach?
Thinking that if we shut up turkey will become a less hostile state to Armenia and Armenians is the biggest fallacy and the culmination of naivete. Finally, I would invite all in this forum who have taken stock of the "real issues" and "real geopolitical situations" to become good will ambassadors to turkey. They are turkey's to keep.
PS: On a personal note, I'm glad you write and read Armenian but I don't really give a fig.
Genocide 'solution'? 1) Turkey awards a sum of money (huge amount - to be determined by the UN or some impartial judge) to Armenia along with an apology for the genocide 2) Armenia relinquishes all claim to former Armenian territory in Anatolia and agrees to drop anything else related to the genocide 3) Armenia gets to keep Karabagh and surrounding territories completely 4) Azerbaijan is awarded funds to resettle former Karabagh residents elsewhere. 5) Turkey agrees to treat ethnic Armenian citizens as equals and restore up to 100 Armenian historic sites chosen by Armenia. Done deal. Everybody wins something. This is the right time to clean the slate and move on. Failing to seal a deal like this will be catastrophic for Armenia in the long term.
The Sèvres treaty was never sent to Ottoman Parliament for ratification (NOT valid).
Turkey will never ever recognize the “genocide”. You can continue your dream.
Excellent solution Karekin.
Why should Turkey agree to your genial solution?
Continue your Dream!!!!
It can be a basis for compromise. Yet nobody has offered a deal like that, so there is nothing to seal. The protocols are not what you have outlined even by far. And then again, first things first, and turkey --before anything else-- has to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Without that, we cannot move on to the other stages, even though the current Armenian administration has pretty much agreed to relinquishing a lot without anything substantial in return, and turkey has just done nothing to inch forward towards an acknowledgment of the Genocide.
Very well said Karekin. I also think that we have an opportunity to settle the Genocide recognition, Artsakhs incorporation into Armenia proper, monetary compensation, and once again, the land issue won't be solved and almost impossible to regain with almost no Armenians left in Armenia, let alone on our ancestral lands. If we let the "hot headed fanatics" steal our only chance, it will, as you say, be suicidal for Armenia, the Turks, can and are able, to walk into Armenia any time they desire, yes we will put a ferocious and honorable fight, but lets not kid ourselves, Armenia will be able to hold Turkish forces for a few weeks, one month the most, then Armenia will succumb and will be incorporated into Turkey. Thank God, our fanatics are few in numbers, and most of our people realize the seriousness of these matters. Careful diplomacy and cool headedness will eventually make our dreans come true.
Here is something for my hot headed friends to ponder..
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
Hermann Goering
Dear Margo,
I´m sorry if I did not priase your very indepth analysis on these Pseudo-ingtellectuals(turkish, i.e.)
You also mention-in essence-that indeed acknowledgement ought to ,nay, should be a first on the part of their authorities.My response to that is:-Don´t worry it will come!!!!
But-do not be disappointed- in their wily Ottoman turkish fashion , that is BY AND BY,with sugar-coated words etc.,But that it will come there should be no doubt.Please refer to my above response to your,however in precis format.To add that they will even come and kneel at Tsitzernagapert..however ,having by passed-in their minds(reparations issue), for this time over we stand on a somewhat different pedestal-ground, and will not bend over to their machinations-maneuvres.
We have recuperated our nation/state(s)and are on a much firmer position in the Diaspora(s).Latter to be re-structured to become a SUPER-STRUCTURE HOPEFULLY SOON.
Hama Haigagani SIRO
gaytzag palandjian
Of course, genocide recognition is integral to the concept I proposed, but there are benefits accruing to all sides as a result that would encourage Turkey to participate. In addition, as part of this, I would also ask Turkey to sign a fully binding non-aggression treaty with Armenia. As I said, I think this has the potential to provide a win-win outcome for all concerned parties. Perhaps someone should actually put something like this on the table...maybe Hillary Clinton could do it...with the idea of finally putting to rest all of the underlying tension that exists between Turkey and Armenia, and allow people to move on in a positive direction. The point is, someone has to break the ice, change the dynamic and help positive change to happen. It will not happen spontaneously....as with anything, success needs a catalyst, it needs a leader, it needs a champion. Wallowing in and massaging the past as we've seen and experienced for the last 80 or so years, just isn't healthy on any level.
Excellent analysis by Taner Akcam of current issues regarding the protocols, the Turkish justice system, the distrust of the 2 nations, parallel betweek Kurdish and Armenian questions.
I agree with most of his analyses and conclusions.
The only area that I feel Mr Akcam has left open ended, (although he says its shut and closed) is the issue of territories and borders. I wonder why he feels so categorical about this issue? He knows very well that if Turkey is trying to get Armenian Government signature on this terrorial issue in the protocols, is because there is no Armenian signature on the Moscow treaty.
I am not an expert in Ottoman history, but it is a common fact that after the Ottoman empire crumbled The New Turkish republic didn't claim Syria, lebanon, Palestine, Bulgaria, as Turkish lands. Why should we think differently when it comes to 6 Villayets in Historical Armenia that belonged to Armenians for thousand years, and that was returned to Armenia by treaty of Sevres and Wilsonian mendate?
I think the distrust of Armenians regarding the honesty of The Turkish State in signing this Protocol is justified if one reads the following statement made by Mr Ozdem Sanberk , member of the TARC committee as reported by H. Sassounian in 2001.
"As I reported back in 2001, Ozdem Sanberk, one of the Turkish members of TARC, had blurted out the following admission in a moment of weakness or inattention: "The basic goal of our commission is to impede the initiatives put forth every year in the U.S. Congress and parliaments of Western countries on 'the genocide issue'.... The key goal is to prevent 'the genocide' issue from being regularly brought onto the agenda in Western countries.... The significant matter for us is that 'the genocide' issue is not discussed by the American Congress anymore. As long as we continue the dialogue, the issue won't be brought to the congressional agenda. If it is not discussed in Congress, we, meaning Turkey, will gain from that. The US Congress will see that there is a channel of dialogue between Turks and Armenians and decide that 'there is no necessity for the Congress to take such a decision while such a channel exists."
I always thought some of you are in a dream, an illusion of stealing some more land of Turkish soil. After reading Hratch's warnings to Akcam, I changed my mind. This is alone how the large Armenian masses are cheated on. Erivan was mostly Muslim majority before the war proves that Turkey should claim it to be returned to the mainland, or some kind of money should be paid for the Turkish belongings during the 1000 years Turkish rule. How historical Erivan is Armenian in compared to 1000 years of Turkish culture, which totally vanished immediately after the war?
This article is also a great gift, thank you very much, as Akcam himself confesses that, 1) The archives are open 2) There is no legal difficulty in Turkey regarding freedom of speech.
Such a great Bayram present,
Poor MehmetFatih! Is that all you udnerstood from the article? That the archives are open and there is no legal difficulty in Turkey?
Dr. Akcam, like a number of others, claims that Turkey is "changing" - for the better.
We have been hearing this for 125 years, at least. First there was the Ottoman Armenian Constitution, which was scrapped. Then God-knows-how-many reform plans. All scrapped. Then the Young Turks were supposed to usher in a period of Nirvana. Then after the gen0cide, a new "changed" Turkey was supposed to have been born under Ataturk. Then the Kurds were massacred again. Then a multi-party system was introduced. Big deal. Were we Armenians supposed to stand up and cheer? Then the 1955 riots.
Let Turkey "change". Is this something I as an Armenian am supposed get up in the morning and be thinking about? Do Turks get excited because Armenia and Armenians "change"?
Should we care whether Turkey, now virtually devoid of Armenians, is "changing"? When did Hye Tahd start to rely on Turkish domestic politics? Have we Armenians appointed ourselves to be Turkey's psychiatrists? Is Hye Tahd now considered social work? Why are some of you so hung up on "reconciliation"?
The proposal you have outlined above could not be turned down by any Armenian administration. If such a proposal were on the table it would have been signed by Armenia long ago. It would as perfect for Armenia as it can get in the circumstances. As long as turkey has no incentive to budge, however, I don't see it in their interest to sign any such deal with Armenia. Contrary to some assertions above, it is not the Armenian hot heads who are really preventing a deal with turkey. It is the fact that turkey wants Armenia to give up not only its claims on what was stolen from Armenians, but also Karabagh, Genocide recognition (they are just dilatory tactics, angling to kill off any demands overseas by Diaspora pressure groups and reduce our Genocide demands to a contentious issue; they want to get rid of that embarrasment overseas.) At this moment, Armenia should not aim for more than trade with turkey. It is not the time for an all encompassing solution simply because turkey is not interested in it.
It doesn't make sense. Why did that Changing Turkey group let the interview with Akcam conducted and then refused to publish it? They would already be aware of what Akcam would say, no?
I've checked the website and noticed that they always published only 3 Q&A for each interview. Besides, they already published the last question where Akcam explains his research on the Armenian question. Finally, they already have a comment on Turkey-Armenia protocols by a Finish institute. So, it's not irrational to exclude the parts which would only be repetitions.
So, accusing Changing Turkey for being biased is non-sensical. It seems to me that the Armenian Weekly is trying to attract attention by accusing some group it is not familiar with. Both Eccarius-Kelly and the editors of the Armenian Weekly should have contacted the Changing Turkey website and group before accusing it. The website looks very academic and I think that Akcam's views do not really involve academic contributions in their actual form. So, it is a better idea to publish his comments in the Armenian Weekly rather than an academic website.
When did Hye Tahd begin to consist solely of the demand to have Turkey "acknowledge" the Armenian genocide? What kindergartner or social worker came up with that?
No national liberation movement that I know of has ever had acknowledgment of mass murder as its ONLY demand.
To Mehmet Fatih:
Since you have access to internet it would be beneficial for your sanity if you first google about a subject before burping rubbish about 1000 years of turkish rule of Yerevan.
As what you say about the 'archives open' & 'There is no legal difficulty in Turkey regarding freedom of speech'... read the article few times more & then you might understand its contents.
Mehmet, your logic is flawed and utterly wrong.
If I followed your politically naive and elementary logic, then current day Baku, used to be Armenian( Strabo and other historians of the day, put Armenias boundaries, during the reign of King Tigranes, from Baku to Israel to Angora to current day Iran.) And what about Constantinopol? Smyrnia? Angora? All these were full blooded Greek cities.
Come on, be real and let's discuss the Genocide. Thousands of righteous Turks already accepted the complicity of their ancesters executing the Genocide. The greatest Turkish minds and historians, the likes of Orhan Pamuk, Dr. Akcam and thousands of others have already spoken about the Genocide.
Contrary to what most Turks hear, we don't hate Turks, I myself have no issues with the Turkish people, let alone you. I do, however, have an issue with your government, which keeps denying facts known to every single human being all over this planet...and that is the whole extermination of a people, on the hands of the Young Turk government.
Remember the "football diplomacy?" Let me give you an example, lest you forget that we don't hate Turks. Here are what the world press wrote regarding the arrival and departure of Turkish footballists:
"Turkish athletes arrived in Yerevan, and had the full and complete protection of Armenias police, not one Turkish athlete was molested, attacked. Turkish news vans are in full sight of the Armenian people on the streets of Yerevan."
Here is what happened to our athletes:
" Upon arrival to Turkey, the buses carrying Armenian athletes were vfiolently attacked by stone throwing Turkish mobs."
Now, you tell me who hates whom.
All we are asking is the recognition of the Genocide.
Cheers..
Always forgive your enemies - Nothing annoys them so much.
Best interview ive seen in a while, I feel that you conducted it very well, keep up the good work!
As a general statement, I would like to point out how deep the inroads are of the imperial domination mentality that we have inherited from six centuries under Ottoman rule that reward caution to the point of emasculation and defenselessness. We have Armenians, and for all ironies I am sure most of them are well-intentioned, chastising fellow Armenians for their flaws, for demanding what's right and what is their right --regardless of the attainability or political expedience-- or for refusing to admit, essentialy, that "might is right" (i.e., that we should let Turkey get away with murder) yet they are ready to jump and embrace and kiss in both cheeks without any restraint or caution any Turk who says something remotely nice for our plight. Thus, the onus is put on the Armenians to "get their act together" to expect results from Turkey. We have been fairly together in this, for all the political infighting within the Diaspora. Nothing we had done differently would have nudged Turkey towards recognition. The only other thing we could have done differently would have been to give up the fight completely, and that would have amounted to national suicide in the Diaspora. Yes, we have faults, and we have them by the shipload. We should, however, judge that in perspective. We come from communities founded by orphaned kids who were Turkish-speaking and who laid the foundations for our schools, for the Armenian-speaking second generation. Theirs, our grandparents', our Genocide survivors', has been a generation of titans. All of us who are in this forum who are of Armenian descent are still here thanks to them. And we are here because we still want to remain Armenian. That, in the Diaspora, when we could easily embrace completely the identity of our host countries and forget about our burdensome nationality, is our choice. Let us not blame the Armenians for not having achieved all of our goals so far: whatever we had done, Turkey would still not acknowledge the Genocide, would refuse to compensate us and would remain essentially an enemy state, because that's what it is by definition. That we can do things differently is true. That, however, does not make us responsible for what Turkey has done to us and for what it is failing to do to make peace.
Mr. Akcam's OPINION about Armenian land demands doesn't interest me one bit.
Armenian rights to land have nothing to do with "nationalism" or an "emotional connection" Mr. Akcam, but everything to do with our LEGAL RIGHTS to our occupied property.
Since when does Armenia still need 'liberation'? What a joke. There is a very real, azad and angakh Haiastan on the map, from what I can see. Take a look. Yes, it's there. It really is. Yet, some people insist on focusing on something that has been elusive for what....?...a thousand years, or so? Armenia is emptying of people for lack of jobs, Karabagh is hanging on by a thread, and yet we hear otherwise intelligent people talking about 'liberation'. Look around...there are very few 'captive' Armenians on the planet, folks. For the most part, they are wealthy, well fed and nicely clothed. Quite a few drive very nice cars and live in very big, ostentatious houses. Not quite the image of those requiring 'liberation'. That thinking went out w/ the dodo bird...or soon thereafter. Stop jeopardizing the future by focusing on a mythic, romantic past that remains in history books and fairy tales, and start participating in today's reality.
If anyone on here lives in the US, you are living on stolen, occupied territory. Just ask any native American. Perhaps we should all give it back, with interest. I mean, they were here for at least 30,000 years before the place was usurped by the British, French, Spanish, Dutch and Swedes. That said, I think it's imperative for everyone to ask and examine exactly WHY successive Turkish governments continue to defend and protect criminals of the past (ahhh...they actually did destroy the Ottoman Empire!), and the legacy of the CUP and 1915. Of course, many of them were hunted down by the ARF, but many others stepped in to fill the void. Prof. Akcam alludes to it when he says that today's Turkish secular 'elite' were the successors to the properties, businesses and other assets of the minorities, particularly those that belonged to Armenians. Unlocking this 'mystery' is an essential component in any of these discussions. Failing to do so will just enable an endless circle of accusations and useless demands what will never be met, to continue, in a very counterproductive way. The reality is, all Turks are not alike...and when you scratch the surface, may not be Turks at all, other than what it says on their passports.
Well, since there is a heavy moderation on my comments, I can never be sure if I can have a meaningful conversation with any of you through this comment box. I tried to stay within the content of the article when I write, instead of attacking other users here. This alone puts me in great disadvantage, well, I am now used to it; FYI, I have never used any bad language so why censor my posts? Anywho, if you are really interested in having a meaningful conversation, just ask the moderators to forward my previous response to you, since for some reason they can not publish them here.
Alrighty; about the Armenian hatred against Turks, I will not talk about the ASALA , nor I will refer to some other reader comments I came across this website. You all know and see them. I will even not talk about my personal experiences and physical attacks I experienced just because I dared to talk against a myth that clouded the Armenian minds. I am not even going to bring to the table what our very own prime minister and president face everytime they visit U.S. and the bunch of Armenians who welcome them with eggs. (What is causing all this? Too much love?)
But I will talk about the future to see if you are really honest about the recognition:
Imagine a future that Turks after a long series of war against X country lost their army, no one is protecting their lands. They are weak and Armenia is strong so that the Armenian army would march on all the way to Adana, and capture the Ararat? (That indeed reminds me Khojaly, anyways, let's continue)
What would then happen to Turks who have been there since 1073? Will you spare their lives, or kill them all? Would you be so peaceful then, too? Would you let them live their religion under your rule, let's say until they cause an unrest in April 24, 2914 and became allies with Azerbaycan to protect their LEGAL RIGHTs to their occupied property; to be fair, you know.
I hate generalising things; I can see there are fanatics in both sides, whether they are in the US, in Switzerland or Turkey.
I am only asking one question:
How can you ask me "who hates who" question if you see me as your enemy; even a forgiven one? Doesn't that justify the relocation cause? (By the way, Armenians were not that special to Ottomans, neither other Christians (as figures rise, now other minorities are also added, how can someone discover soemthing about history without looking in the archives) since they were not the first group who were relocated. That indeed had happened before to other people (Muslim and Christian) in other parts of the empire after unrests? (No I am not saying we have done genocide in the past, just on the contrary I am saying Islam doesn't let us kill people for their potential future murders, but the Prophet, too used relocation during his life when he relocated Jewish people in Medina when going to war against Kufrar; otherwise Talat Pasa should have been a Stalin or Hitler)
Neither myself nor any general Turk hates or have hated Armenians. We don't feel the need to forgive you, because you are not our enemy. We are hoping as Armenia get richer, it will have a positive effect on the freedom of speech amongst people and the truth will prevail at the hands of those Armenians whose sound of silence doesn't mean they do not exist. (That reminds me the clip in which I have watched an Armenian man in front of the Memorial in Erivan defending Turks, hell ya, it exists)
I am simply asking you to think out of the box, and ask yourselves what if the story was way different than what you were told?
"All we are asking is the recognition of the Turkish lives lost in and after the era because of the Armenians, and a cheque for the damage caused on Muslim property by the Armenians on our lands and in Erivan."
Wouldn't this be fair?
Mehmet, did anyone here wrote/said that the Armenian army will march here and there, and along the way massacre the Turks living on those lands? All we are asking is the recognition of the Genocide, which did happen, there is absolutely no controversy about this truth(the Genocide), the problem, as you and I know is loosely connected to "politics." The USA needs Turkish oil and land for their air bases, once the oil dries and there is no need for an air base, then everything will change overnight.
And regarding lost Turkish lives, of course Turks died, remember the Ottomans were one leg of the Axis powers, and therefore thousands of Turkish soldiers died fighting the allies, and some soldiers and irregulars working for the Ottoman army died fighting Armenian freedom fighters, who simply were resisting the "death marches."
As for any Armenian accessing and participatiing on this forum, did you find any one single Armenian using profanity? I certainly don't. I hope you will not, either.
Recently, some Turks, have posted messages, trying to shift the blame on Young Turk leaders, allegging that Talaat Pasha was a Circassian and Not a Turk, that the mother of the Sultan Hamid was an Armenian by the name Verjin, that the rest of the Young Turk leaders were mostly of Albanian, Jewish, Kurdish and Circassian, and that we should blame those individuals for the Genocide, and Not the Turks. We all knew about the ehnicities of these men, but their ethnicities does not absolve the absolute majority, the Turkish people and the current Turkish governemt.
To conclude, you brought Yerevan as having absolute majority Turkic population one time in its long history, fine I understand. Did you know that Baku and Tblisi both had absolute Armenian population in the past? And how about Angora(Ankara), Smyrnia and almost all the cities in current day Turkey that used to belong to and were populated by ethnic Greeks? And what about Diyarbekir, which is overwhelmingly populated by Kurds? Food for thought.
"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country." George W. Bush
Well, I'm sorry, but I must disagree w/ Mr. Sinan on where the blame for the genocide rests. There is plenty of evidence in the history books that those who concocted the deportation plan that resulted in the genocide were not ethnic Turks at all...they too were of a minority group, and were largely Salonikans...Ottoman, but not Turkish, and only marginally Muslim (on the surface). The point is that we cannot blame the entire Turkish nation or people for what happened and Turks cannot blame Armenians for fighting back in self-defense, against a secret force of thugs who were bent on murder and theft. The premises are suspect and deserve more scrutiny. As an analogy, are all Americans in the US today fully, or even partially responsible for the displacement and genocide of the native Americans, or do we place blame on a specific group or policy? Are all Americans responsible for the million dead and 4 million Iraqi refugees? Are all Germans responsible for the Holocaust, or is that reserved for 'the Nazis'? If we are to move forward, everything must be seen in a proper context. Blame should be squarely placed and the secrets of history should be revealed completely. As we all know, sunlight is a great sanitizer and cleanser. Let's use it to clean the slate and move forward.
Karekin, Without taking issue with your core argument --that we should not sacrifice our present and future pursuing adventures in the name of a romanticized past-- you may note that sound knowledge if history is what has to direct us to our goals. You may also note that nobody is doing anything in that regard. There is and there has been very little place for adventurerism in the two, very challenging decades of independence in Armenia. Until these protocols --that may yet yield fruit or, for most Armenians (including those in Armenia, according to surveys) may set us on a perilous path-- for all their faults, Armenian administrations have been very cautious in the circumstances and very much aware of the limits for their action.
Your comments about Armenians being wealthy are a very common myth among Diaspora Armenians, something we were discussing last night with friends. That myth, that all Armenians are wealthy, has contributed in several of our communities to drive away from our institutions many Armenians who are not well off (and who, I suspect, are the less visible majority of us.)
Mehmet, I write to you despite knowing it won't make any difference, and also with a deep suspicion that you, and most Turks that argue there was no genocide (and don't fool yourself, it is only Turks who make that argument), know very well that what happened during WWI was a genocide. Perhaps you knowingly choose to believe otherwise, perhaps you only know subconsciously, and it causes you to react even more strongly. I suspect that you must know not only from the wealth of information now available on the topic both on the internet and even in Turkey, but also because if you've been watching your own governments actions for the past 20 years, you can probably see they also know that it was a genocide.
So with that as my basis, here is what I have to say to you. You come here to an Armenian forum, with your complete list of grievances, including not only ASALA, but also Khojaly. You are so blinded by your attempts to "win" this argument, instead of seek the truth, that you can close your eyes, plug your ears, and repeat these two names as a chant. What you cannot do is think to yourself, what you forbid yourself to think, is - my god, if the loss of hundreds of lives have me so incredibly upset, how can the Armenians feel after losing over a million lives, their homeland, hundreds of dialects of their language, their rich artwork, culture, and I have to again mention the lives....
Now let me say something that will piss you off a bit, but which you should hear. When somebody says there is no genocide, whether it is their job (as it would be for the diplomats killed by ASALA) or not, that is not just words, it is two specific things. 1) it is a continuation of the genocide. if you read the 8 stages of genocide on genocidewatch.org, you will see that the final stage is denial - and here you should not fool yourself - DENIAL IS AN ACT OF GENOCIDE. 2) It is a hate crime. Just like calling a black American a nigger is a hate crime, denying the Armenian Genocide is the same thing. It is indeed hateful, racist and despicable. You need to understand that words can be more than "just" words, they can be violent instruments. So try to understand that denial of the genocide is a violent act, and if the leadership of your country organizes a worldwide campaign of denial (and racist hatred), being greeted by thrown eggs is something that should not surprise you or them.
As for the rest of your post, get over yourself. You don't feel the need to forgive us? Because you don't hate us? Awww, that's so sweet, even though it's a lie. Talaat couldn't massacre Armenians because he was Muslim and Islam doesn't allow it? Awww, that's such a sweet dream world you live in, but it's time you wake up. You're wasting everyone's time here, including your own if you're going to write such nonsense.
It still is a mystery as to "why" some young Armenians still dream of the days when King Tigranes the great reigned supreme, when Armenia was a major power in our part of the world etc etc. Those days are long gone, the world is a different place now. Religions have changed, our immediate neighbours have long gone, new faces and religions surround Armenia. To top, we must discard the "romanticized" version of Armenia. And let's embrace and keep whatever we have NOW. We fast are losing our focus. Let us start with the Genocide recognition, next Artsakhs immediate incorporation into Armenia. I don't want to fight the Turks, it will do Armenia no good at all. Turks have long understood that one day, maybe one day, there might be a military confrontation with Armenia and its allies, and such, they have left the Eastern parts of current day Turkey, bordering Armenia...BARREN. Whereas 30 km east of Ararat, a big metro city of Yerevan, sits like a "sitting duck," ready to be shot at, and which will easily be surrounded and decimated. Let us keep our emotion in check all the time.
As for the "blaming game," I blame all Armenian political parties for all the pain and suffering the enemy has inflictd on us in the past including today. Political parties, were the old "Nakharar" houses of Armenia, and of course the always at odds and always bickering political parties of today. These parties were at odds with each other and fighting each other before the Genocide and after.
United...we never were, divided we always are.
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber
- Plato
Nobody denies that Native Americans were exterminated in the European conquest of America. That nothing has been done to compensate for that is another story, and a sad one. turkey --the turkish state, so please leave out the endless debate about good or bad turks, because it's completely irrelevant-- has been denying that a Genocide ever took place.
I find it interesting that people continue to judge how well an economy does based on everything but the quality of life of the masses.
Capitalism, by its very essence, is a money-oriented system, not a people-oriented system. Accordingly, capitalism is better for economic growth. This much I concede. However, time and time again it is proven throughout history that economic growth does not mean the gain in quality of life for the masses. (A simple example is this: a child sewing sneakers in Cambodia does not have a better life one year after the next, regardless of how many more sneakers Cambodia produces; the economy in Cambodia grows, yet the quality of life of the masses is lacking).
Now one may say, "Hey, I don't care. I don't care if that person lacks a quality of life. It's not my problem. I work hard and smart, and they don't. I don't want to give away some of what I have so that they too may have a decent quality of life. I deserve a better quality of life." If one gives such an argument, then that is fine. Such an argument is honest and more accurate than, "Capitalism is a beautiful system". And for such arguments, at least we may counter them on ethical grounds as well as long term pragmatic arguments. (For example, it is unethical to leave people without education regardless of economic status. And it is in everybody's interest in the long run that a nation not have oppressed groups).
As Armenians, we have to decide, do we want to become another Vietnam or Cambodia or Thailand, with a growing economy but a lousy quality of life for the masses? Do we want to continue judging progress based on how many new tall buildings increase in Yerevan? Do we want to continue having a money-oriented system? If so, then we should stick to what we have. In which case, people will continue to leave Armenia until there a a handful left, and those handful of people will continue to own everything.
The other option is to begin judging growth and progress based on the quality of life of the majority of the people: Are they receiving a proper education? Do they have access to proper healthcare? Do they have a true voice in the government? Do they have proper working conditions and hours? Do people feel they have the dignity that all humans deserve to have? If so, then it is time to change our approach. It is time to leave capitalism the same place where most of the civilized world has left it.
Hye, Raffi you explained the truths - Mehmet either will try to learn the truths as well, or, he will continue in his Ottoman mode of thinking - 1,500,000 innocents shall have deserved to be slaughtered. What if these 1,500,000 had been Turks?
Mehmet has been educated to believe the unarmed 1,500,000 Armenians citizens of Turkey, removed from their homes, to die whilst marching into the deserts,, slaughtered, raped, kidnapped and more, shall be the enemy of the Turks - because their Turkish leaderships say so...
Today Turkish leaderships cannot admit that they have lied of their history - all these years - in their own history books to their own Turkish students, the Turksh leaderships have denied the Turkish Genocide of a whole nation. The world over, many nations, International Genocide organizations,
Archives in all the lands (witnesses to the Turkish vile crimes are recorded for posterity) and
in Washington DC, as well. American Ambassador Henry Morgenthau's efforts, his writings, were all
to speak up against what the Otttoman Turks were determined to accomplish - rid the Armenian lands of Armenians and claim the lands, homes, farms and more, and Armenian culture as if it were all of the Turks origins! Mehmet, can you read Ambassador Morgenthau's writings? Is it available in Turkey - probably not. Mehmet, choice is yours - if you are capable of learning the truths - or - not.
Many in Turkey today admit that Turks' leaderships denials of the Turkish Genocide - are lies...
Manooshag
I understand and respect the deaths of all the peoples during that time. However, I reject the racism and hatred. Whether it is true to call it a genocide or not, wasn't the focus of this discussion, but the hatred in the Armenian community towards Turks or was it the other way around.
There seems to be no way we can reach an agreement on your claims if you, too as some Turks, (some 70% of the Turks (excluding the much-loved Kurdish people you let them write here at Armenian Weekly), but 99.9% of the Armenians whose sounds are heard) ignore the very essential element of any scientific thinking; the possibility of the alternative.
I also find it racist and do not sympathise with people who defend Turks by saying the governing elite of Ottomans were not of Turkish. The Ottomans were Ottoman, that is what made Sinan, the Sinan the great artitect. Whether he was Armenian or Greek, or Turkish doesn't matter; he was Ottoman, so were Talat and Cemal or Kemal as well as Zohrab and Vartkes.
The bulk of the literature on Ottomans written by Armenians are utterly biased, unfortunately even on very obvious facts like the wealth and richness of our (together, not Turkish only, our) culture is totally ignored or undermined, ( even in many books, it is totally cursed) just to convince the readers about a cause. How can you expect the Turkish seeing and reading all these propaganda blaming not only a certain period but all the Turkish history starting from Asian steppes (yes, we were then the barbaric mongols) and Selcuks (yes, 1000 years, since Revan was inhabited by Turks in Selcuk times) and not to conclude that Armenians hate us. The following logic is obvious, then comes the claims for land, and money. Oops, Turks become racist suddenly, well, they have always been and here is this crazy fellow who killed Grant comes as a proof. This is a sick cycle, which is also used by the Turks of hatred, I still understand, people earn their lives out of this and they like the status be preserved for their own benefit.
However, we can agree on other things; such as since the Armenian losses are so well-documented, and published and referenced even by other Muslim scholars, and so-called genocide researchers ( adjective for the word 'researchers' particularly), Muslim losses are totally ignored and labeled as fighting soldiers died, or freedom fighters killing the children or war conditions, hunger, starving, .
Well, we were enough busy in defending ourselves against all the evidence you found, and Muslims totally ignored to search and do some scholarly work on their losses. ( how scientific is it to look for evidence to prove a hypothesis?)
After we can calculate the total destruction due to Armenian army, civilian losses, lands and property destroyed, subtract what you calculate, then I think we can agree on a payment plan; which is definitely include the Armenian share from the Ottoman debts that had been shared between all emerging independent countries after WW1, except Armenian share.
As for the genocide, you must first honestly acknowledge your guilt, then we can start discussing that issue, as well.
Sorry, and apologies for wasting your time (?), but at least I am reading your comments due my respect to your passion.
Raffi...I commend you on a very good set of comments. Well said, however, we need to remember that a great many Armenians are alive today because of the same Islam you are implicating for the genocide. It doesn't add up, does it? How could such evil Muslims save thousands of victims of the genocide? Perhaps the real perpetrators were not truly Muslim? Perhaps they took great liberties w/ their adopted religion and abused it royally in order to steal the assets of the Armenians during a very weak point in the Ottoman experience? Perhaps, just perhaps, the real explanation is that this group of creeps, the CUP characters who negotiated w/ Armenians only to stab them in the back, were not part of the larger Turkish majority? There is evidence to support that thesis. The CUP was not representative of the ethnic Turkish public at that time, though it sought to exploit it with ultranationalist words and a fear campaign directed at certain minorities. And, perhaps, just perhaps, today's Turks are resisting blame because they want us to be more specific with our rage and feel a very real disconnect with the past? Again, the world doesn't blame all Germans, it blames the Nazis for the Holocaust. This is not to absolve Turkey, but rather to provide an opportunity for today's government to apologize in a sincere way for a horrendous crime and possibly work to reverse years of lies designed to protect the architects of the genocide. To some degree, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be in a position of defending it. They're not that stupid. None of this helps Turkey. They know the whole story inside and out, but along the way, it became a crime in Turkey to speak about this episode honestly or to use verbiage that pins blame on Turkey because it's an 'insult'. Of course, the mere concept of not being able to speak openly and honestly about this in Turkey is an insult to Armenians, but until both sides can discuss this in painful detail - yes, in Turkey itself - not much can change. I suspect, more than land or money or anything else, Armenians just want to see and feel that the land of their ancestor's birth feels remorse and is willing to humble itself, just a bit, to apologize in a sincere way, no matter who was actually responsible. I really don't think it's too much to ask. The mystery is that Turkey is a big boy now...it should be able to handle the truth, but continually acts like a small child that broke something at grandma's house and needs to hide it - forever - even though everyone saw what happened. Isn't it time to grow up?
Avo, while I know plenty of Armenians who are or were quite poor (my ancestors are among them), in general Armenians, by virtue of their hard work and devotion to education, usually rise above those around them. This is the truth. I also suspect that most diasporan Armenians would prefer to be exactly where they are...in the US, France, Argentina, etc.rather than in Armenia or in eastern Turkey, or even in Istanbul (beautiful as it is). It is in that sense that any 'liberation' cause is destined to fail. Most people are just too comfortable and apathetic being 'part-time' Armenians, but are also very accustomed to it at this point. My point is that the people don't need 'liberation', it's history that needs liberation, at least in Turkey. I believe that will come...give it time and be patient. Rome wasn't built in a day.
mehmet has probably recently discovered his family's Armenian ancestry and been ostracized from his deranged clique of 'pure bread' turkish nationlaists only to find himslef venting his frustration on the Armenian Weekly and trash talking Armenians.
mehmet, it's safe to come out of the closet here and embrace your Armenianness...we understand your pain...
Why doesn't the name of the Jewish editor appear in this article?
Hratch,
You are really not making much sense. What is money? It is a receipt for a claim to some utility in the future. SO more wealth equals greated utility which equals happier people, and therefore, capitalism is "people" oriented. You have mistaken corporatism, which is really fascism, for capitalism, which has not existed for a long time. Socialism CANNOT WORK. There are many problems, like the incentive problem, the economic calculation problem, the tragedy of the commons problem, the inefficincies of markets because they are unable to maximize utlity in the economy, the deadwieght losses that come with it, government failures, and the bureaucrats that rise to the top, as only a few people can actually rule over a totalitarian regime as you suggest, are going to be megalomaniacs, as history has shown time and time again. The state run media will say anything it needs to say to brain wash people, and the state will continuously get more and more power over the people , until , like the leach it is, sucks the life out of its populace before it dies out. There is a reason the Soviet union has failed, why China is going away from communism, why people in North Korea are starving, and why the best Cars in Cuba are still 1950's chevy's.
For all this talk about ethics, its funny how you completely disregard natural rights and negative rights in general, for positive rights, which are a joke. The World owes you nothing, it was here first.
And why bring up Vietnam, which is not a free market economy, instead of Singapore, or Hong Kong, which are not free-markets, but are very close?
Interesting read from today's New York Times titled: Jewish nationalists and Palestinians clash in East Jerusalem
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/world/middleeast/02mideast.html?_r=1&ref=world
"A Jewish organization reclaimed the land around the tomb based on property deeds that date from the 1870s."
So Mike in response to your above post you argue that Armenians shouldn't reclaim our lands based on our ottoman property deeds from 1915 because...
a) Armenia's weak
b) Much time has passed since 1915
c) Americans live on occupied Native Indian territory
d) Armenia is the smallest internationally recognized country in the Caucasus
e) Armenia has the smallest population and declining
f) Armenia has a small army
g) Armenia is surrounded by enemies
h) Armenian has no natural wealth
i) Armenia’s population has a standard of living that is basically Zero outside of Yerevan
j) Armenia’s wealth is controlled by a few hundred greedy men
k) Armenia is a country where political assassinations are a norm of life
l) Armenia is a small country with relatively large numbers of political parties with differing political agendas
m) Armenia is a country where all three presidents are “alleged” crooks
n) Armenia is a country where emigration outward is alarmingly high
o) Armenia is a country which basically is bankrupt
p) Armenia is a country that is lacking an adequate air force
q) Armenia is not Israel
r) Plus 100 more (unknown) reasons why it is impossible to get these lands back
s) Mike Sinan and a slim minority of Armenians think its a pipe dream worth forfeiting for nothing in return and the fanciful hope that ceding this land will change things.
Mike do you see how illogical the points of your argument are? Land reparation demands are based on the merit of legal property rights that are documented under the names of our Armenian ancestors.
Why do you believe further forfeiting our rights to land would not harm Armenia and what do you think will result (benefits and disadvantages) from forfeiting these lands?
The great British diplomat and writer Harold Nicholson believed there were two kinds of negotiators: warriors and shopkeepers. Warriors use negotiations as a way to gain time and a stronger position. Shopkeepers operate on the principle that it is more important to establish trust, to moderate each side's demands and come to a mutually satisfying settlement. Whether in diplomacy or in business, the problem arises when shopkeepers assume they are dealing with another shopkeeper only to find they are facing a warrior.
In forfeiting your ancestral lands Mike, you assume that you are dealing with another shopkeeper.
So, Armenians shouldn’t reclaim our lands based on our ottoman property deeds from 1915 because…
a) Americans live on occupied Native American territory
b) It's a far fetched pipe dream like our aspirations to secure Armenia's Independence, the liberation of Artsakh and return of assets accrued from our ancestors life insurance claims.
OR because
c) Mehmet and his friends think its a very bad idea...
I can see that we are actually going somewhere, and happy about it (Not because I am determined to win an argument, as I have already mentioned, I always leave a room to be falsified) but I am clueless because despite I say the opposite, you keep imposing your belief on me as I subconsciously believe it, but not dare to say it. How else can I make it clear to you that I do not believe the Armenian relocation was because of a genocidal intent, even for Talat, and other CPU members. I will not go into a discussion on this with you here, that would only make you angry, but also I feel like you really deserve to see that not all Turks are parrots repeating what their government tells them to say; they have opinions, and thanks to the debate, they started to read and form their own opinions, although many of us are as silent as (I want to hope) many Armenians.
{I believe the Ottoman elite wanted the Armenians to be drawn away from what they planned to be the mainland to be protected where the majority was Muslim (early plans of Misak-i Milli. No, it wasn't M.Kemal's original idea but has a long time history, particularly developed after the Balkan wars, which included macedonia, and Northern Iraq and didn't have a Muslim focus. Osmanlicilik akimi. Armenians seemed to agree to stay in and were included as a part this plan, that is why they were called the most thrustworthy, and they were going to be an essential element with Kurds, Turks, and Balkan Muslims).
The war in the East, however, caused a dramatic shift in the demographics of the eastern states of Misak-i Milli, and whilst Muslims were losing their lives at the hands of Russian-Armenian army and Armenians were siding either at the winning side or simply becoming the majority. (which I repeat relocation was not a special law practised on Armenians only since all the land belongs to the Sultan not to people. Based on what Ottoman law, would you ask for the Armenian lands given back today? You may not like it, but no one is saying Ottomans were a democracy).
CPU and all the others possibly knew they would not be able to protect the large Armenian caravans on the way. But there were no official orders to kill. (or is there? secret codes? Where are they? This is enough for me to blame Akcam as having low ethics). You can show us and the world thousands of photos, people witnessing the murdered bodies; millions of them, that doesn't prove your claim. (But who were protecting the Muslim people, since the able people were fighting a war in front of the Russian army, against another enemy hitting behind the war zone?)
It was possibly calculated that some were going to be slaughtered on the way despite all the laws to protect them. They misjudged the hatred between the peoples of the region. I don't think they knew the result would be this catastrophic.
However, don't tell me this happenned because of centuries-long hatred between the Christians and Muslims. I don't believe any other nation on Earth could maintain a peace this long in this region but Ottomans. (how else can I give hints on to support your cause).
However, don't insult my people saying only hundreds of Muslim lives have been lost or they died simply in war, or Armenians slaughtered children and women because they were protecting themselves. (Why not help the Ottomans against Russians, then?)
The previous paragraph is exactly what Turkish government kept saying to us; undermining the number of Armenian deaths, or bringing illogical explanations to their deaths. (Well, americans calim the native americans vanished because of the viruses that colonists brought with them).
Because although I acknowledge and respect the Armenian lives, this means you don't care of Muslim lives.
I think the starting point should be to embrace the great Ottoman (Turkish, Armenian, 40 other nations, etc) culture, find our common points and then we can discuss what to do so that people from both sides wouldn't feel their sorrow and pain are forgotten. This is not going to happen if you justify the murders of Turkish people (diplomats, civilians) just because they were not accepting your cause. Wasn't this the same idea behind the murders of the Muslim people, to get rid of them and establish the Great Armenia with the help of Russians?
Are Armenians mistake-free, and innocent by birth?
Thank you for reading my long posts,
Haklarimizi karsilikli helal etmeden, bu is burada bitmeyecek, and we will be forced to ask God to be the judge after this world ends. Possibly we will both taste the fire of Hell.
Mehmet, with all due respect, our guilt was asking to be free from the Turkish yoke. The Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Austrians and Serbs got theirs, but unfortunately for us, we tried, and were massacred en masse. And the only reason we could not get our freedom, was because of WWI, whereas the Ottoman government, under pretext of war, massaacred 1.5 million Turks.
Not one single Armenian, during, before and after WWI, has ever denied Turkish casualties. The bulk of the Turkish dead, were soldiers, and some died fighting Armenians, who were protecting their homes. Yes, people die during wars, but premeditated massacre of 1.5 million "unarmed" people is called MURDER.
You mentioned that a few of your posts were pulled from this forum, well, I've got news for you. Armenians don't discriminate, two of my own posts were ceremoniously thrown out.
I would like to personally thank you, for having the interest and courage coming on here and sharing your thoughts. We really appreciate your comments, wrong or right. We believe that only open dialogue and sincere communication between our two peoples will heal our pain.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell
To Mehmet Fatih
I will quote from an article under the title of "If Dersim was a Massacre, what was the Other Thing?" written by Ertugrul Ozkok editor-in-chief of daily hurriyet on 20th of November 2009:
Quote
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan chose the words “Dersim massacre” as he was criticizing Öymen’s remarks during a plenary session in Parliament. Mr. Prime Minister had issued a statement recently over the “Darfur massacre.” He had said, “Muslims don’t commit massacre...” (According to some sources, he did not say “don’t commit…” but “cannot commit…”) Who, then, bombed out caves and cut the throats of Alevi Kurds in Dersim?
Were they “Christian Turks?”
The first beneficial result of the “Dersim” debate is this: That means Muslims do commit, or can commit, massacre. Then we have to take the second step:
We shouldn’t withhold a similar categorization for the events in Darfur. If the Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir gets offended, we have an excuse in foreign policy then:
“Look my friend! I do call what my own people commit ‘massacre’ so don’t be offended by my remarks.”
Let’s move on to the bigger issue now: Turkey has tremendously benefited from Öymen’s unfortunate remarks over the Dersim revolt. Even I didn’t know enough about the Dersim incident, but I have learned now.
Let me make a confession here: I thought that it was one of the 28 suppressions of Kurdish revolts. But now I’m reading books about Dersim. But I haven’t been able to get one answer yet: How many people died in the Dersim incident?
I have checked the figures; somewhere between 7,000 and 90,000 people were killed: The second question is this: If the killing of 7,000-90,000 is a “massacre,” according to even the most official voice, what then will we call the losses in the Armenian question?
According to Armenian allegations, a total of 1.5 million were killed in 1915. But let’s say the death toll was 600,000. How many times more of those who were killed in Dersim? If the number of dead in Dersim was 7,000, it is 200 times more; if 90,000 then 17 times more. Yes, if the Dersim incident was a massacre, then what was the Armenian incident?
Is it called a big massacre, a huge one or a tremendous mass-killing? As this question is posed to the top authority in Turkey, what will be the “official answer?” He will probably say “Don’t be hard on yourself. There is a universal term used for that and it starts with ‘so-called’….”
The Dersim debate in Parliament means we are refusing our “official history theses.” That’s fine, but how will we get by with adopting an unofficial political language at home and an official language abroad?
Unquote
Please Mehmet open up as per your surname...
To Fatih... another editorial article from Hurriyet dated 29th of November 2009 under the title of "All the Taboos...Will be Broken'
Quote
In a recent article in the Turkish daily Hürriyet Vercihan Ziflioğlu, quoting Hasan Saltuk, stated, “All the taboos of this country will be broken and, in the future, there will not be anything that cannot be spoken about.”
Saltuk is the author of a soon-to-be-published book about the “Dersim Operation” of 1938. According to some accounts, close to 70,000 civilians were killed in that massacre. Contrary to official history that the “operation” was to quell a Kurdish tribal insurrection, Saltuk maintains, “the fundamental reason behind the operation was that the region was home to Alevis” and “they were merely Armenians who had changed their identities”.
In a development related to the Hürriyet article, filmmaker Nazahat Gundogan will release a movie about the Dersim Massacre. The documentary was three years in the making. In an interview with Turkish NTV, she spoke of “hundreds” of orphaned girls who were taken by or given to officers’ families to be “civilized” and taught Turkish.
During the “operation” the Turkish Armed Forces used aircraft for reconnaissance purposes and for bombardment. Among the pilots was Kemal Atatürk's adopted daughter Sabiha Gökçen, the world's first female combat pilot. It is said that she was of Armenian origin, and she flew off without dropping a single bomb.
In yet another development, the Dersim Massacre was recently the subject of a heated discussion in the Turkish parliament.
Following these positive signals, one wonders whether all the taboos truly “will be broken” in Turkey, ultimately leading to a free discussion of the Genocide of the Armenians. Will official Turkey finally face its past? At least one Kurdish parliamentarian, Selahattin Demitras, has stepped forward and spoken the truth. Will others follow him?
In recent years we have seen Turkish writers, journalists, artists, left-wing intellectuals come forth and acknowledge the Genocide of the Armenians. The voice of these righteous and brave Turks seems to be getting louder. Moreover, since the assassination of Hrant Dink and the publication of the “I apologize” document, some Turkish media have begun to broach the question of the Genocide with greater frequency than in previous years, although still not spelling out the “dreaded” G word.
When a person with the stature of Hürriyet's editor-in-chief asks, “If Dersim was a massacre, what was the other thing?” the answer is pretty clear, although he does not spell it out. Bloggers on the Hürriyet site have answered for him – "Genocide!"
How representative are these righteous Turks? Are they spokesmen of a groundswell of public opinion a la "We Are All Hrant Dink" or are they an insignificant group who are--whether they know it or not--acting as a fig leaf for official Turkey? Put another way, is the government giving them some leeway to boost Turkey's credentials as a democratic and civilized society, worthy of EU membership? Are these righteous Turks being manipulated by reactionary Turkey the way Young Turks misled and manipulated Armenian politicians in Istanbul before 1915? Of course, Ankara could also be using these intellectuals to encourage Armenians to bring down their guard.
To our knowledge there are no reputable surveys to gauge Turkish public opinion about the Genocide of Armenians. Based on postings on internet sites by ordinary Turks, it is fair to say that the public is overwhelmingly ignorant of the facts. It is also motivated by false patriotism and is unwilling to listen to voices that appear here and there, questioning the official narrative.
Not surprisingly, the "scholarship" of Bernard Lewis and Stanford J. Shaw are frequently invoked by Turkish posters even in respect to the Dersim Massacre. They argue that since these "historians" have not mentioned the massacre, it did not happen.
Turkophile Europeans, especially those with vested interests in Turkey, have promoted the recent rapprochement of Turkey and Armenia as positive developments. These voices from Europe are eager to grab every chance to claim that Turkey has progressed and matured towards establishing genuine democracy. To make their case, these apologists of Turkey point out that the country introduced changes to its penal code 301, following Europe’s insistence. It is true that some changes were made on April 30, 2008. However, these did not go far enough. The principal alterations were limited to the substitution of “Turkishness” with “Turkish nation”, the reduction of the maximum penalty from three years to two, and requiring the permission of the justice minister to file a case”. The dictatorial and racist spirit has remained unchanged.
No wonder novelist Elif Şafak has said, “The Article has a chilling effect on free expression”. Meanwhile, Nobel Prize-winner Orhan Pamuk has become a hate figure in his homeland, and so worried in his and his family's safety that he has moved to New York for the time being.
Yes, we hope that “All the taboos … will be broken … in the future”, but as long as the hideous article 301 and the operatives of the old guard are in place, nothing can be taken for granted. Neither the good intentions and the apologies, nor the lofty expressions of the righteous Turks should veer us from being ever vigilant and circumspect. We've learned our lesson only too well!
Uquote
Mehmet I've underlined some paragraphs... It would really be useful if you first read your local editorials...No offence but it will enlighten you more if it is from Turkish source rather than an Armenian one.
How Many Souls Can Humans Mourn?
How many souls can humans mourn?
How many mourns sow?
How many mourns unsown?
One, two, three, four, and many more!
Ageless, young, old, some unborn!
What lament? How many more?
Mother, father, sisters, brothers,
And many, many, many others.
Uncountable, unlamentable, ungrieveable.
All are vanished, no bit is left.
Not even a piece of handkerchief
To wipe the tears silently wept.
Eyes, ears, soul, spirits,
Full of dreads, terrors, horrors, fears.
Some say all lies,
Nobody can kill so many lads.
Many babies,
Many brides,
Many mothers, grannies,
More than cats, dogs, sheep, cows.
All done by butcher’s hands, feet, mouths, as well
With other hidden organs, soaked sinfully in blood,
God created spirits; yelled almighty’s name till sighed
After, vocal cords dried, of moist, of lard.
Innocent children were singing just few days before,
For Pashas to live long [
Pashas lived to slash innocent singers’ throats
No voices heard yet to lore in courts.
Yasha, Yasha our dears, our Pashas]
My mother, Viva (Victoria) sang in tears,
I learned Turkish from her indoors.
Today I’m poeting insightfully
Easing
her sourness in cores!
Deny, deny, and deny . . . all lies.
Turks continue to stress, emphasize,
“That was done by our unknowns, not human.
With criminal, scavenger’ hands.”
We are proud of what
We have done in the past.
We are Turks. We are Ottomans.
Our adamant law must never be panned.
We kill the way we like.
No one can break our pike.
Even if others dislike,
They must comply like us, and like.
If anyone objects our way,
Can go to any hell they ray.
The doors are open there to pray
We are Turks; everyone must us obey.
And follow our rule that’s our say.
Even things seem never blue but grey.
We must deny every crime and pray—
Insist to join the EU’s democratic parades.
To live the way we like, they do.
In our land, we behave
The way we have always had;
We can never change till depart.
Everyone knows
We have Ottoman brain—hands.
We never believe in freedom of speech.
We are not born French, democracy in us can’t preach.
Our tongues should deny and lie.
We can cut every tongue red, white, black.
Scimitars… we carry with pride—
Hidden, yet ready to shine; even in dark.
We will continue to slay forever-again.
Those who denigrate Turkishness.
In spite of this, who is real Turk man?
Of course, all Frenchmen; hence, Europeans.
Kurds and Armenians did not exist and never will.
They are only names in a thesaurus dear—
They all vanished, never been renowned,
Who are, from which space entered in count!
Kurds are Turks of the mountains,
Armenians forgotten in unknown terrains,
Existing before the pharaohs, never after then;
However, they have never been in our field of domain.
Their lands are ours they have all vanished.
EU countries should know our deeds!
Turkey is our land, only Turks, in resides.
Our skin is white, covering cyanotic blood,
Our hearts born dark; this is our way to last!
We will enter heaven by our scimitars!
We will never see hell! We’re born Turks in every cell.
We can kill till we invade EU lands and stay in their care.
Able to change heaven to hell
And settle always haughty there;
As far as no Armenians, breathe at pier,
Yet like to see their corpses as peer!
There is nothing in Raffi's comment that implicates Islam generally in the Genocide. He just refers to the argument, much brandished even by many Muslim commentators today, that Islam condemns generally the killing of innocents (much as the Christian and Jewish faiths do as well.) It may be a reference to Erdogan's comment against Israeli actions in Gaza, accusing them of "genocide" (I think, I'm not sure) also saying that it is impossible for Muslims to carry out a genocide because they can't innocents. You can also say that about Christians but there is no Christian that I know claiming that "it is impossible for a Christian to kill innocents": 20th century is abundantly clear. Now, who is Erdogan kidding. It's true that many Armenians generally were welcomed by Syria, a very friendly country to us (even though very few Armenians seem to know there was a massacre of Armenian refugees in 1918 in Aleppo), Iran, etc. Still, Erdogan's is cheap propaganda, consistent with his own ideology, that deserves nobody's serious attention. While the topic here is not Islam and the limits of its tolerance, it's not the most pacifist religion in the world: they are not Quakers, and the Quran glorifies Holy War, which is literally what the Holy Book deems it to be and not the very marginal interpretation given by some 19th century reformist Islamic theologians that jihad means a war within's one soul to prevail over evil. That has resurfaced recently as a counterargument to terrorists and terrorism, and only by some weakling Islamic preachers none of these ready-to-die militants listen to.
As for focusing merely on the CUP as sole responsible for the Genocide we would be overlooking the fertile anti-Armenian soil in which it was carried out. Not only by Islamic laws Armenians were second and third-class citizens in the Ottoman Empire --these Islamic laws are generally hailed as "progressist" by Muslim propagandists: well, yes, they were so in the 7th century Arabian desert, but hardly in the 19th century or today-- but there also had been several massacres before Ittihad came to power, most notably 1894 and 1896 (in which my great-grandfather was murdered in Kilis). Turkish massacres of Armenians were not Ittihad's sole privilege. One must also count the massacres of Armenians by Ataturk's forces in Kilikia. That wasn't CUP's making either. Moreover, if you want to consider anti-Armenian Turkish actions from a broader perspective, we should also count the Baku massacres of Armenians at the beginning of the 20th century (was it 1906? I don't remember now), let alone the pogroms of Sumgait and Baku in 1988. In the same way that the Nazi plans for the Holocaust had their basis in a long tradition of anti-Semitism in Germany and in Central Europe generally, the Armenian Genocide had its foundations in a much predicated and practiced hatred of and contempt for Armenians in the Turkish state even before Abdul Hamid. The CUP ideologues merely perfected it and devised a comprehensive plan for wiping us out: Ataturk seemed very happy with the results; they did the work for him, and he later made sure to exterminate what was left of us, and had he been able, he would have obliterated the first Republic of Armenia too. The massacre of Adana in 1909 should have been a warning, but there were many signs foretelling Adana and the Genocide even before 1909.
News flash: if you have an Ottoman property deed in your hands for your ancestral home in Turkey, and the house is still standing, and is uninhabited, I believe you can claim it and live in it today according to current Turkish law. I've been told this several times in Turkey. Even more interesting, an Armenian family currently living in London was just recently awarded 11 prime acres of family land on the Bosphorus by - surprise, surprise - a Turkish court. Admittedly, these are very small things, but anyone is free to pursue such claims on a personal level. Everyone should keep in mind that the idea of prosecuting a current government for the crimes of a past (and discredited) regime will not go very far, especially since the current players were not even born when the crimes occurred. At best, you are relying on an effort to embarrass them into an apology. If that's the case, wouldn't it be much better to begin not with insults and empty threats, but rather a vigorous effort to har-kell them to your side? There is a rare opportunity here to work out a new dynamic, but first, Armenians really need to stop acting in an undignified way. They need to stop arguing from fantasy. We all know there is no excuse that can justify the genocide, but endless anger about it is counterproductive. It is psychologically debilitating and unhealthy. While an act of apology or even compensation from Turkey would be welcomed, it is not going to cure every Armenian ill, either in the diaspora or in Armenia. I fear that too many people are putting way too much effort into something that will produce very little of substance. Yes, it's well worth pursuing, but please...try to pursue this in a smarter, more thoughtful way, especially since none of the avenues used in the past have produced anything worthwhile at this point. Keep the goal, but change the strategy, and defuse the objections. We may find there are more people offering support from all sides. Remember, a law of physics is that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It's true in human interaction as well, and worth remembering. That's all.
Mihran....if you have an Ottoman land deed, go to Turkey and claim your land. Go for it. No one is stopping you. The reality is that for almost 2000 years and perhaps many more, Armenians have never been war-like or successful warriors. That is a term reserved for the empires that conquered them...the Byzantine, the Persian, the Greek, the Arab, the Seljuk, the Ottoman, the Russian, etc. Being a 'warrior' from your living room chair and on your computer is rather bogus. As they say, talk is cheap. You have an Armenia now....and should be working day and night to help, preserve and support its growth instead of focusing on land that was lost. There are tens of millions of people living on that land now...and they're not Armenians. If you don't change your approach, you risk seeing today's Armenia being lost as well. Then what? What will you say? What will you do? Who will you blame then? By then, of course, it will be too late. Armenia needs your help and support. It needs to reunite with Karabagh. It needs to stay afloat in a storm and doesn't need the mindless and useless distraction of those who want to recapture a farm in Erzerum or Malatya. Get real.
What is this comment about? Where did this come from now, again? The comments above are about the roots of the anti-Armenian sentiment and laws prevailing in turkey --even today: no need to go further than the Armenian school curricula and the murder of Hrant Dink--, indicating that the Genocide and the Armenian-turkish conflict have much deeper roots than Ittihad's policies. The CUP only continued policies that had a very long tradition in the ottoman empire. There is nothing undignified in exposing the truths about turkey that they are not revealing. That the turks find it insulting and threating is their problem.
Kudos is due to this courageous editor and commentator.
Will Ms. Goldberg's tone and the ICJ's new found revelation about the Armenian genocide change once Turkey recommences its 'proper' etiquette of courtship with Israel?
Karekin, I gather your comments were about some of the subsequent posts, not about Ittihad. It's now clarified.
The above article says "Tatosian argued that Armenia President Serge Sarkisian was dedicated to the recognition of the genocide."
I would defy Tatosian or anyone else to name some substantial things that Sargsian or any other Armenian president since independence has done to advance the cause of genocide acknowledgment or indeed anything at all having to do with the Armenian genocide. A genocide conference or two in Yerevan? Big deal. Armenia's leaders have been weak, unpatriotic, and downright uncooperative when it comes to the genocide. Their record is one that fills the average Armenian with horror and disgust.
"the idea of prosecuting a current government for the crimes of a past (and discredited) regime will not go very far, especially since the current players were not even born when the crimes occurred."
Whether the people in charge now were born when those crimes were committed is irrelevant. Am I correct to assume that you are a legal scholar with much evidence to back your claims about not being able to prosecute a current government for the crimes of the past? What evidence is there to back your claim?
News Flash: The Republic of Turkey is legally liable for its own crimes against Armenians, as well as those committed by its ottoman predecessor. Turkey has inherited the assets of the ottoman empire and therefore also its liabilities.
There is nothing insulting about demanding your legal rights. We have exhausted the "harkell" strategy of "trying to win them to our side". The "harkell" strategies yield over 90 years was the signing of treacherous protocls that are insulting and threatening. For how much longer are you willing to wait for the reciprication of respect before you forfeit all of your rights?
Me robe Karekin...you missed the point about Harold Nicholson's description of NEGOTIATORS. The term "warrior" was NOT used in its literal sense!
For your sake, let's add another nonsensical "argument" to the list for land reparation naysayers:
t) "There are tens of millions of people living on that land now…and they’re not Armenians."
With this pseudo argument you ignore the fact that the return of land is based on the sanctity of justice not on how the turkish government will handle the feasiblitiy of administering justice. It's their problem. Don't make their problem ours.
Reclaiming personal property land deeds Karekin is a given. But how do you justify pursuing our personal legal land claims and not swaths of land that also legally belong to Armenians by prosecuting a duplicitous government?
If you forfeit your land demands from the Armenian Genocide, what makes you think you don't blatantly risk the loss of today's Armenia as well? Then what? What will you say? What will you do? Who will you blame? By then of course it will be too late my friend and the warrior will have already taken you to the cleaners for good...
As I read this I audibly chuckled. Setting aside the likelihood of any monetary triumph, if the Dashnaks sincerely are vested in the Republic of Armenia's future prosperity in the Caucasus, I would greatly like to hear their rationale behind such action, and what potential benefit for Armenia as a whole it offers. With the economy contracting over 15%, poverty rates at nearly 30%, a lowered budget, and heavy IMF loans on the books, any winnings will merely be food, change and shelter stolen from the possession of desperately strapped Armenian civilians in the form of future taxes and public debt. From an outsider's perspective, this only further fortifies Armenia's image as a politically dysfunctional and unfortunately split post Soviet state. Rallying Armenia's people and Diaspora, creating public awareness, uniting and creating synergies amongst other historically rival political groups and organizations who feel similarly against the protocols would be a much greater use of resources. For a people as few as ours, given the current timing and regional developments we are in a position to make our 95 year old goals central to other's agenda. With the Government reducing military expenditure by 22% FY2010 and Azerbaijan continuing to build arms, I genuinely hope the ARF, which has been a unequivocal defender and supporter of the Armenian nation and its survival since its inception, rethinks any brash decision that contradicts its past and jeopardizes our future.
We all know why most Armenians in the world don't have deeds to the homes stolen by turkey nor their life insurance policy documents. The approaches advocated above have all been tried and failed, and failing, to judge from the results the protocols have attained so far. It is very easy advocating help for Armenia from an armchair, with an approach that basically amounts all that Mihran has outlined above: we are small, we have no power, no army, give in to anything the turks want. Why would turkey respect a country that gave up its rights? Do you think they would interpret that as a sign of good will and would promise to not bother us anymore? That's the wildest fantasy. Why not sign off Karabagh to them too, since they and their kin patently want it?
We are now a Diaspora and are here to stay, whether we like it or not, and we are going to remain Armenian, whether the turks like it or not. You outlined a proposal above that would be a basis for negotiations yet turkey has no incentive to adopt it, and it will have even less incentives if we let up the pressure. If the Genocide and reparations are an issue on the table--and the reason the turks spend so much money on lobbying against its recognition, and it drives them mad-- it's because of all the work we've done over these decades. Had we given up the work turkey would not even bother to deal with this issue. You only see the empty half of the glass.
Mihran,
Sorry for my own belated response, but I'll try to make this brief considering I plan on elaborating further in a seperate op-ed.
You seem to have confused national "rights" with state policy. The Republic of Armenia has absolutely no legal claim to Western Armenia in any sense of the word. For one, the independent republic was not recognized by any foreign state and thus does not fall under the jurisdiction of any international court (as in, even though treaties may exist between the Turkish National Assembly [itself not recognized at the time], we have no legal venue to pursue these complaints). Secondly, contrary to the propaganda the ARF and its sympathizers have spewed since the mid 1920s (once it was a diaspora organization that held none of the responsibilities it did as a government force in Armenia), the Democratic Republic of Armenia has ceded all of Western Armenia to the Turkish National Assembly (under the looming threat of war, or, as some have suggested, under the assumption that the government in Constantinople would prevail and the treaty would be null and void). So, even if legal rights under the umbrella of "property rights" could be asserted -- they could only be done so on an individual basis (by relatives, by the way, which complicates things further) and not as related to the current Republic of Armenia (which is, arguably, a whole other legal entity). And second, if we were to get by these gigantic obstacles, Turkey could well present itself (with a lot of credibility) as a new legal entity and not the Ottoman Empire, the guilty party.
This is however nonsense talk because all international courts have upheld the decision that crimes as defined in the Genocide Convention committed before 1951 cannot be tried. Yes, the ICJ has ruled, it was genocide, but this has no legal ramifications because it was done before 1951. Essentially, Turkey cannot be tried for violating laws that did not exist at the time.
And why do you seem to only talk about "Western Armenia"? Why not Kilikia? Or why not the Hamidian Massacres? Or why not the forced deportation of Armenians from Nakhijevan to Persia a hunred years before that (by the Iranian government of today, I'm assuming)? Is the fact that it happened in the 20th century somehow more legally credible than if it happened in 1899?
There is, however, Mihran, nothing stopping you from going and filing a legal claim to land in Easter Turkey today. Nor is it stopping any Armenian organization for filing legal claims to international courts (like we did with New York Life Insurance). Why haven't they done so? Why have you not held your leaders responsible? Why don't you lobby them to do so? Do you expect people in Armenia to believe all of this while the people saying it have offered no real way of achieving these goals?
I understand we "deserve" it -- but when I make the formal demand for it, people should expect me to explain to them how we're going to get it. What does that say about me if I don't have the will/intellect/time to come up with a way of achieving this goal?
Imagine if we had this mentality during the war for Artsakh. Would you base policy on unrealistic odds like the ones you're preaching? Good thing the adminstration in power at the time didn't...and LOOK AT THE RESULT. Wow. A much deserved victory.
The Armenian Weekly proves - time and time again - that it is, very simply, the internet's top address for the exploration and exchange of the ideas and intellectual currents that will shape the future of the Armenian nation.
How easy it is to justify victory in Karabagh in hindsight! I wished I could know what all were thinking when the movement was beginning, when the Artsakh Armenians were lawfully demanding unification with Armenia, when the war broke out --during Soviet times, and I remember very well the panic and ardent denounciations by Armenian "realists"-- and then when the future seemed uncertain, during the defeats we took in the winter of 1992, when an Azeri victory seemed certain. I guess it was good we weren't "realists" then, even though the odds were ominous for Armenians.
It is also interesting how, on the one hand, Armenians are urged to follow the path of the law and legal niceties, none of which Turkey has ever bothered to observe. What these realists seem to imply is that the law is for the weak --nothing will come out of it, anyway-- and "might is right" for whoever can get away with it, like Turkey, that has always seemed oblivious to the law from the Genocide to the occupation of Cyprus in 1974 and the incursions into Northern Iraq these last years to fight "terrorism". Wow. I would love to hear our "realists" when Turkey decides it can bomb "terrorist" targets in Armenia if it one day builds up the case that the PKK is harboring there. I'll ask my family where the hell have my grandparents put the deeds for their homes.
Avo,
Your sarcasm is becoming offensive. Why do you feel the need to speak in tantrums when confronted with legitimate conversation?
But I will respond to your half hearted and ignorant point about the war in Artsakh in itself being “unrealistic.” Your (and the community at large suffers from this) continued attempt at generalizing all conflicts and all glorious struggles against the mighty Turk as the victory of proud patriots against defeatist Armenian traitors is dangerous.
A region that is populated by 80% Armenians fighting against an army the size of Azerbaijan’s is NOT the same thing as trying to reclaim a piece of land that has no Armenians that we lost in 1915 through bizarre and fantastic legal/military methods, all of which have been rejected. Stop trying to overgeneralize hugely different scenarios to fit your narrow historical perceptions of Turk vs. Armenian.
Here’s a history lesson on Artsakh you seem to urgently need. By Armenia’s independence, Artsakh’s and Armenia’s security seemed to be directly linked (or at least a good case for it was made). The drive for independence started with the drive for Artsakh’s reunification with Armenia. At the time (1988), when the Kharabagh Committee was formed, our leaders probably didn’t envision war as a result (or independence) and tied their hopes to the legal and political decisions in Moscow regarding reunifying the Kharabagh SSR with the Armenian SSR. When the Soviet Union itself began to collapse and its power waned, it was clear that a military show down was inevitable and, whether Armenia liked it or not, if the forces in Artsakh were defeated, the Azeri army would be crossing over the border into Armenia proper -- thus, the choice was made for them.
Had Artsakh never risen up (a right it was entitled to, but was nonetheless never ENCOURAGED TO before it actually did, by Armenia), Artsakh-Armenia relations would have continued like they have with another Armenian enclave in a neighboring country...
Have you heard the name Javakhq? The only reason we haven’t had war there is because Akhalkalaktsis don’t want it -- if they did, it would be a different story (quite possibly a MUCH different story, unlike Artsakh). (Maybe they are following a realist policy that understands Armenia cannot afford to fight right now...ugh...those defeatist fools).
Please don’t reinvent history to present Armenia’s decision to join a suicidal war against Azerbaijan as an example of “good patriots” vs. “defeatist traitors.” It was not gung-ho nationalism that brought us to the war, it was the pragmatic realization that Artsakh’s security was tied to Armenia’s. This is how all Armenian states have behaved (Cilicia, the DRoA, the RoA).
You see, “realists” (like LTP, Vazgen Sarkissian, Vazgen Manukyan, or as I’m sure you call them “defeatists”) realized that the best course of action would be to join Artsakh in their struggle. In your head, however, you have devalued “realist” policy and intentions to mean “anti-national.” The decision to join Artsakh was a by product of realist policy (as was the drive for independence, by the way -- you should look into how the ARF, Hnchaks, and Ramgavars [“nationlist” forces by anybody’s account] were against independence).
If I have accepted defeat, Avo jan, you surely are obsessed with it.
The scenario you’re painting about Turkey bombing Armenia for PKK targets proves my point. Do you see them following that policy now? No, they don’t. They are being realists. I’m sure (although this can be debated), if the circumstances permitted (you know, like REAL circumstances), they would. If you weren’t so completely afraid and beaten to the ground by the Turks you would be able to realize that IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES PERMIT (you know, REAL circumstances), we would probably reclaim Western Armenia and Javakhq -- heck, we’d reclaim Palestine too! Absent any...umm….reality-related stuff...Turkey won’t be making any bombing campaigns soon, nor will we ask for Western Armenia back. (Although, the case for Western Armenia with these terms falls flat on its face).
Realist policy is the state’s pursuit of the nation’s goals with respect to time, space, and capability. Nationalist policy is the nation’s pursuit of historicity irrespective of the state’s concerns.
Look at the expansion of Turkish borders in 1939. Turkey began pursuing a policy to reclaim parts of Cilicia (or Syria) when it saw the real oppertunity to do so. Before that, had it done so, it would have meant an unneccesary war with the French and Arabs.
Mr. Herny Astarjian is right when calling Sarksyan-Nalbandyan diplomacy a sort of ‘Yalanci Dolma’ diplomacy, where Mr. Sarksyan is the Qyandrbaz and Mr. Nalbandyan is the Yalanci. In fact, Mr. Kocharyan is the Dollma though he thinks he is a hairy-bear. Does Mr. Astarjian know that this situation, that in Armenian tradition is called “Chari verjy,” is the consequence of 10/27/99.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Mihran, if you've studied history and more specifically, the post WWI period in Turkey, you will know that tribunals were held and that many people were, in fact, hanged because of their involvement in the genocide. You will also know that the ARF hunted down and executed many of the key players of the CUP power structure, and has continued its war against Turkey to this very day. Yes - Armenians have paid a HUGE price over the past 90+ years, no one can dispute or diminish that fact. The question isn't the past, as far as I'm concerned, it's the future. Nothing you do or say will bring people back and nothing can legitimately bring Turkey to trial, if that's your goal. It cannot and will not happen. Other, more recent genocides have all led to key individuals being brought to trial, but not the country itself, nor the government. There is the concept of sovereign immunity in international law, which has been practiced since the middle ages and is recognized by the US, among others. It may be a bitter pill, but one that people need to swallow, especially since the criminal government that perpetrated the genocide legally ended a long time ago. If time, money and energy are to be invested, let's invest it in retaining and reuniting Karabagh w/ Armenia in a formal way. This will result in a stronger, more viable Armenia and is well worth the effort. As it is sometimes said, 'the past is behind, learn from it. The future is ahead, prepare for it. The present is here, live it.'
It's good to hear the word "realistic" on this website finally. Everybody knows that 19th and 20th centuries were a "fucked-up" period in human history. Lots of wars, migrations, killings etc. Every nation, except maybe for a few, has entered into this shit to a certain extent, like it or not. Unless justice is restored to ALL nations involved in those turbulent times, nothing is going to happen in the way of what you call the Armenian cause only. Let me demonstrate with an example. Some people here are talking about restoration of pre-1915 real estate deeds to Armenians. I have an Ottoman title deed myself from 1870's in Macedonia for a piece of land that belonged to my ancestors. Can you restore that as well? There are more than 5 million people in Turkey whose grandparents had to flee from the Balkans. Can you restore them back to their places? There are millions of Circassians distributed throughout Turkey and Jordan. Can you restore them back to the Caucasus ? No. Nobody can. It is time to let go. Unless you come up with a win-win strategy for all, don't expect Armenians to receive special treatment.
Hye, Dr. Astarjian,
Once again, we see that some Turks simply cannot admit to the crime of Genocide. This is, in part, due to the educationsl system in Turkey, which omits the truth, and, in its place, instills a false narrative of a Turkey that can do no wrong. There are also issues of national character at play, with Turks demonstrating a powerful resistance to any challenge to their Ottoman legacy and the founding myths of the Republic. As a result of these and other factors, we see a Turkish leadership fixated on denying the Armenian Genocide and obsessed with subjugating Armenians to an inferior status - whether geopolitically, psychologically, historically, morally, academically, etc. - Manooshag
I just found that I was mentioned in this article and was really surprised. Im the one who has the ugur90 username on the Young Turks site. I'm not outright denying the Genocide. Here are my views
First I would like to distinguish the difference between believing and thinking. Believing is something you do more with your heart and less with your brain. It isn't based on facts but what you hear from other people and your instincts. Thinking on the other hand is done by analyzing facts. You gather evidence and make the right conclusion about X and Y.
I believe that the Armenian Genocide did not occur. I believe that there were killings and ugly things on both sides. But I do not think this. I have not analyzed the facts and have not drawn a logical conclusion. That is my view on the Genocide.
Do I hate Armenians or Armenia? Absolutely not. As a progressive Turk I'm tired of hearing the same old bigotry in my country. Ever since the Ottoman days us Turks have a fear that other nations intend to take our land and break us up. We have the belief that we are surrounded by enemies (Greece, Iraq, Armenia, Iran, Bulgaria). Even though this is mostly a view of the old generation there are still tensions that exists from history and I believe this is unacceptable. Time and time again I refer to World War 2. This conflict is much more recent than what happened between Turkey and Armenia. America nuked Japan and Germans slaughtered Jews. But everyone has passed on and become friends and allies. I hate this idea of old rivalries and suspicions keeping Turkey and Armenia from having a friendly and diplomatic relation. If I talk to my friends in Turkey half of them probably have negative things to say about Armenia and I'm sure its the same for us in Armenia. Have any of these people met a Turk or Armenian. I went to an international school and knew Armenians. They weren't bent on killing me or anything.
Even though I disagree with most of the things the current Turkish gov't does but I really support their recent attempts to further diplomatic relations with Armenia. They have also brought up the idea of opening borders to Armenia again. Of course there is the problem of Armenian occupation of Azerbaijani hold territories in Karabahk region. I think small steps and compromises on both sides should slowly bring peace and diplomacy. During World War1 we were the Ottoman Empire. Yes the Ottoman Empire has brought us proud moments in our history but we are an empire no more. We are exactly the opposite, a modern secular democracy. Whatever the people in charge did back then wasn't what Turkey stands for. I hope that Armenia and Turkey can have normal relations as quick as possible. Turkey is a regional power and a mediator between nations in that area and I believe that better relations with Armenia can expand Turkey's sphere of influence to help and expand diplomacy with nations in that area(such as the Georgia v Russia thing)
The problem I have about the Genocide is that politicians trying to declare if it happened or not. I think the way it should be determined is by getting historians, lawyers, social scientists, etc.. to go into the region, observe archives, and do research to reach a conclusion. If that process is done I don't care if its declared as a Genocide or not. As long as the right process is done. As long its not decided by the politicans or government of any nation. Thats why I don't support the US coming up with bills for it. I don't really understand it.
As you can see I'm really an open minded person. I like to think things logically and keep history out of things and be nice and friendly to everyone. I know lives and families were affected by what happened, that is unchangable, but forgiving and forging new friendships are even more important.
I will not comment on the Dersim massacres, since I have not done enough reading on it. (However, I have heard Sabiha Gokcen was the first to drop the bomb.) However, I know enough and heard enough first-hand stories about the other massacres that have targeted other groups or people that the Republic thought would be a threat to its survival. It is fair to call all killings of innocent people, a murder and a massacre. That is it. I hope those, who ordered or personally killed even one innocent person would pay for it, either in this world, or hereafter.
Despite my respect for the lives lost, the death tolls, how large they are, do not determine whether it was genocide or not. I am not worried of any consequence that the recognition of a genocide would cause; in particular financially. We are rich enough to pay for anything, and make the entire Armenia a prosperous country but isn't what the new government now trying to do, anyways?
Egemen Bagis has said it very nicely; we can't be rich if we live in a poor neighbourhood, we can't be safe in an unsafe neighbourhood.
The land: You can forget about it, unless Armenia somehow possesses nuclear warheads, like Israel, and use them to invade and kill half Turkish population in your own hands. Is it the only way that you will give up your genocide claims? Correct me if I am wrong, that is what you had said my friend(?), right? - Such peaceful people some of you are and can still accuse Ottomans to have genocidal intentions.
However, I will never accept being labeled as a nation or the ancestors of a nation that hated a certain group of people and want to get kill them all. Because, I believe the collapse of the Ottomans brought nothing but pain and sorrow to the world; in Balkans, Middle East and Caucasus. (http://www.newsweek.com/id/224676) and this is not because I am missing the empire's great armies or the huge lands, but I am missing the richness of its culture and being friends and united with all these great peoples of this part of the world regardless of their religion and race. I know Armenians will never have another Sinan, and Turks will never have another Fatih (the one opens doors) or Arabs will never unite and Jewish will never feel safe.
Because of all these, I am accusing CPU, the Armenians, Turks, Arabs for their betrayal and ignorance that led the losses of millions of lives on all sides in the past, and created the sick minds who killed Hrant or those who would dream of having nuclear war heads and exterminate Turkish people.
Dear Dr. Astardjian,
Thank you for your straight to the jugular article. I missed your writings very much.
Armenian Weekly
Dear Editor,
The "Chookasian Armenian Concert Ensemble's" Director, John Chookasian, was contacted by "The Armenian Music Awards" Coordinator, Mr. Arthur Kokozian and informed that their award winning CD "Passage to Armenia" has been selected to be one of the "Nominations," in the "Traditional Folk Music" category and placed on their AMA website for people to be able to vote for the group.
We are quite honored and thrilled to be placed on the AMA website and nominated in this unique category.
Best Wishes for good health and success in your work and outstanding Armenian publication. Happy holidays.
Sincerely,
John Chookasian
Chookasian Armenian Concert Ensemble
(559) 213-1909
This is yet another example of the ARF doing everything it can WITHIN the system to stop these detrimental protocols from being ratified, all while they are continuing to build an opposition bloc. I think the amount of effort they are putting in is commendable.
Vlad,
Everything you read in favor of socialism you are brushing off as either being nonsensical or terrible. For the sake of intellectual integrity, rather than blind argumentation, I ask that you take more time to prepare your responses. Just as you have misunderstood the article, you have misunderstood my posting, perhaps because you are not reading carefully.
I repeat, the issue is not that of having an economic system that is producing more or less, or bringing more money or less money into the country. The issue is that of the quality of life for the majority of the people. Who cares if capitalism is allowing Mr. X to make a billion dollars a year, if the quality of life of the majority of the people remains unbearable to the point where they continually think about survival and leaving the country?
You say, somewhat cold-heartedly, that "the world owes you nothing". And this is fine if you wish to live your life this way. But when I think about an 8 year old Armenia girl that is being sold into slavery so her family can keep a roof over their head, my national consciousness (and my consciousness in general) does not allow me to accept a system which leads to that situation. Yes, we owe that girl something. The nation to which she belongs owes her security, education, healthcare, and human dignity... for which she in turn will owe her nation loyalty and contribute to her nations prosperity. Do you really want to live in a world where it's "every man for himself"? That's fine, do that. But if that is so, do not claim to care about your fellow Armenian. Do not claim that you want the best situation for them.
Also, why do you point to Cuba and the Soviet Republic (both of which were/are dictator run)? Why not rather point to Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, or even Israel as examples of modern socialist nations?
See, Henry? Selcuk agrees with you, and he is not sarcastic. Keep up the good work.
Every time I meet a Turk and say my parents were survivors of the genocide, they look me in the eye and say they know nothing about it. They know!
ARF has seemingly abandoned the role of a constructive minority party in Armenia promoting useful dialogue. The party has become-well- extremist. Extremist in the sense that ideological filters are so severe that they have become disconnected from reality.
Mehmet, forget the Armenians. When will we get our independance? It's been long due, and the 30,000 killed in our liberation movement, were mostly Kurds killed by the Turkish army. How about that for a peaceful people that you so proudly proclaim?
I kept telling CPU for the Ittihat ve Terakki, only now I recognise, apologies, that is funny but looks like an analogy to the central processor unit. :)
What he said was completely unrelated to anything I talked about...
But it's nice to see you've let a random Turk inadvertently dictate to you how to shape the future of your own people.
It's quite sad that, at least in America, one side of Armenians has accepted defeat, and the other is obsessed by it. You both let Turks dictate to you the terms of your future. Some of you do do it under the banner of "pragmatism", but others do it under the banner of "do the opposite of what the Turks want us to do"...
Thank God the people of Armenia aren't plagued by this mentality.
Mehmet, spend your money on yourself & do not worry about Armenia.When we've survived a Genocide we will definitely survive few years of poverty.Do not worry about us.The Genocide generation & generations afterwards survived worse poverty & did not beg.
Recognition of Genocide will let us bury our unburried families, who after 94 years are still waiting for JUSTICE.
The land?Of course we will not forget.We are patient & my God how patient we are you really do not know.We'll wait.We have a country next to our lost lands & always looking towards it.In my village in Armenia when we bury our dead we bury them towards our lost lands.
Jews regained their country after 2000 years.That's a very good example for us.We're in a much more advatageous position than the Jews by having a country next to our lost lands.
From your comments I see that you are in the process of coming into terms with your ancestors' past...The turkish intelligentsia & media are paublicly doing the same.That is a very healthy sign & keep up the good work!
Ferhat I liked your comment.Unfortunately Mehmet not even once commented being a Kurd.I personally believe that you will have your independence & hopefully very soon.Good luck!
I deem to differ with both APiligian and Harb above. The only sensible party in here who is solely concerned about the Armenian nation and Armenia's sacred lands is the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. If today's government acted legally and morally, Tashnagtsutyun would not have to go to any extremity to bring the government and some of the uneducated populace to their senses. ARF is not a majority elected party, on the other hand Sargsyan and his clan did not share the particulars of the so called protocols with their people nor the other parties of Armenia. ARF tried and is still trying to do their best not to fall in the hands of the enemy and give up our rights. I am in agreement with ARF all the way. May God bless them.
If we were able to predict the course of History, the world as we know it today would certainly look different. There are so many players and factors at play that futurology is a vain exercise. Yes, unnecessary provocations seldom have happy outcomes: Nobody here, even those that the very cautious jump to call "hot heads" is advocating adventures like those launched by the president of Georgia against Russia. Nobody here is advocating that Armenia launches military operations in Javakhk --I certainly hope and pray that no war breaks out there-- but then again, we shouldn't judge history within the narrow limits of our lifespan. The pendulum has swung very violently for Armenians in our history, so we have been through a lot and my point is that we would not have achieved all we have today, our little Republic and Artsakh, if we had calculated the odds against us because they are always formidable. Always, formidable odds against us. What if one day Georgia turns against us? To judge from our history, they have never been very reliable, have they? I guess it would do Armenians no harm to get back Javakhk, in a scenario similar to Karabagh. So, what do we do? We decide it on the spot, or we better are ready in the face of such an unpredictable neighbor that has brought upon us this huge disgrace of being forced to open the border to so-called "Turkey".
Only 16 years ago, Turgut Ozal was calling for "showing our teeth to Armenia". Only 16 years ago, So-called "Turkey" imposed a blockade against Armenia in support of Azerbaijan, a blockade that stands to this date. So-called "Turkey", hence, can afford to show its enmity and hostily towards Armenia more or less with impunity because it has military might and yes, true, we need to factor that in, as I am happy to see Armenian governments have done so far. We have had very cautious governments, who have conducted a wise and pragmatic foreign policy. Except, of course, for these protocols. It is plain to see that Armenia needs a more or less working relationship with so-called "Turkey", but there was no need to capitulate on our demands for the acknowledgment of truth. You want trade? Fine, a mere document stating that from such and such date onwards Armenia and turkey are open for the traffic of merchandise and people would have sufficed. No need for those grandiose and vague terms so-called "turks" will do every effort to use against our demands. And as long as you are alive, you do not give up your demands to what's right. We now live in a world which has made some efforts to more or less abide by international law after the tragedies of World War II and generally the 20th century. These people --I repeat, these people and their government-- obliterated the entire population of Western Armenia. People get rightly horrified by the death toll of September 11th, the Bosnian war or the disappeared during military repressions in Latin America, then they tell us to hush up and behave because so-called "turkey" is big and we are small. So what wise people do, when we are not being offered a deal --no turkish government that I know of has ever offered to acknowledge, negotiate and agree on compensation for the Genocide-- you don't give up what you are asking for. Simple bazaar rule.
I'm sure you don't think Armenia dies the day you die. Armenia will continue for very long after all of us are gone and you never know what the future brings to so-called "turkey", we don't know if there will be an independent Kurdistan one day and how that may change the balance of power in the future. I'll sit and wait, without giving up what's mine, especially when the turkish side is not even considering to sit down & negotiate. As Franklin Roosevelt used to say, when you reach the end of the rope, tie a knot and hang in there. That has paid off for Armenians in the past and I don't see why it shouldn't in the future. S0-called "turkey" is a country so riven by internal contradictions, secular vs. Muslim, Kurds vs turks, new Latin script vs past Arabic script --a country that cannot read its own past. Who knows? Maybe turkey is rotten to the core, and we can't see it yet, in the same way nobody could predict the collapse of the Soviet Union. We just need to hang in there.
In other words, if history was predictable it wouldn't be what it is.
I'm glad you have accepted defeat. Keep the seldjuks happy. The rest of us have work to do.
Dear Mr. Henry Astarjian speaks right from our hearts in the Diaspora. We know only too well what the Turks can and have done so much malice to our truly intelligent and progressive Armenian nation. You only speak the truth dear Mr. Astajian and I wholeheartedly agree with you. If the grandson of Jemal Pasha, Hasan Cemal is sincere in his endeavors, then first he must come out and condemn his grandfather from all his crinimal acts. Agree with us about the facts of the Armenian Genocide carried out by the 1915 Turkish government, then we can talk with Mr. Hasan Cemal.
Mehmet, I don't think Armenia will ever do that to get the lands back. We don't carry out genocides. None in our history. Who knows, maybe so-called "turkey" is a country that will disintegrate, like the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia. Maybe it's so rotten to the bone by its internal contradictions that it will fall apart under the weight of its own history (you know, there are at least 1,5 million skeletons in the wardrobes down there). Many changes happen you know, in our lifetime and after. Then again, maybe you get lucky & live to see so-called "turkey" to cease being the country it is today. Stay tuned.
Mr. Avo,
Did you bother reading what I wrote? If you did, I think you seriously misunderstood almost everything I said (and I wonder why, you seem to write quite eloquently, you must understand English). You went on to restate how bad and evil the Turks have been, how bad and evil they might be.
Why do you keep thinking through this narrow and paranoid lense: "What if the Georgians turn on us?!"
So? What if they do? If we can prevent we will, if not, so be it. We have an army to protect us and beyond that we can't do much...all states have limitations and expectations...including Turkey, and including Georgia. Why are you so worried about what the Georgians will do? Considering the second most powerful army in the world is trying to destroy Georgia, shouldn't they be the paranoid ones? The Russians could've completely demolished Georgia last year -- why didn't they? What was limiting their behavior? What if WE decide to turn on them...should we? can we? why would we?
You also failed to respond to anything I said earlier -- presumably because you have nothing to say. It seems to me as if people like you have become so arrogant so as to believe you know what is best for our nation (and have always known). Now that the Great Avo has made the decision to "get back" our lands (lands that we never had and were never a majority in), everybody else has to figure out a way to bypass international law, solve the Turkish military threat, figure out what to do with the Muslims in Western Armenia, and then figure out how we're going to get people like the Great Avo (who has been asking for Western Armenia for a very long time) to leave his home and go live in a new land, completely different from his own. In the meantime, we should work to open the border and solve the Artsakh conflict...
At this point, you have contradicted yourself so much that you have grown angry: "Nobody here is advocating that Armenia launches military operations in Javakhk –I certainly hope and pray that no war breaks out there– but then again, we shouldn’t judge history within the narrow limits of our lifespan." So what exactly are you advocating? And what exactly are you advocating in terms of policy regarding Western Armenia?
Your mentality reminds me of Robert Kocharian -- he came in thinking he was going to be Liberator in Chief, until he realized he lived in the REAL WORLD. His policies (and Sarkisian's) swung so far to the "defeatist" camp that they made LTP look like a Fidayi.
Genocide recognition a precondition for relations with Turkia...and then it wasn't.
Ambiguity on the border issue...until he recognized the border.
Not giving "an inch back' to Azerbaijian...to the Madrid Principles.
Azeris/Armenians too different to coexist...until we needed to reconcile.
The ARF has also gone through a reverse transformation of this process -- it used to be an extremely pragmatic and realist political party...a party that gave us the first Republic, thus insured the survival of the Armenian SSR, and thus the new Republic. However, once it became a diaspora party, so defeated, so scared, so exiled, it ran to bizare and extreme mentalities that have no basis in reality.
Mr. Avo, if you want a good read on how our discussion played out in Paris, 1919 -- look into Boghos Nubar Pasha's proposal that Armenia stretch from Baku to Kilikia, from the Black Sea to Northern Iran. Then look at the ARF's response to that fool. Ignoran Diasporan Armenian. Typical, typical.
"I’m glad you have accepted defeat. Keep the seldjuks happy. The rest of us have work to do." -- And when are you exactly going to begin this work? Please, do tell.
We already are.
Mr Henry Doumanian,
Come down from the clouds. When you are negotiating with rug dealers like the turks, you don't bargain by giving up everything before the deal has even started. That's inviting the wolves to feast on you. You negotiate when you have a partner to negotiate with, and so-called "turkey" is no such partner.
As for my Javakhk example, I am not one bit paranoid about the Georgians. We all need people around to entertain us. Perhaps I should rephrase and say that in changing geopolitical circumstances, what is seen as a handicap may become an asset and viceversa.
I'm not sure we disagree that much, Baron Doumanian. What bothers me is that you show your cards even before the game has begun. Feeling instinctively that we play for the same team, it's understandably annoying to see how my fellow Armenian is playing his cards. Why do you think you made Selcuk's day?
Thanks for calling me the Great Avo. I don't deserve it though. I'm not that tall. Then again, my great-great grandmother was Corsican, like another person who wasn't that tall.
Parevner
Dear Henry,
You have done it again.But as a rule I pick on the best of your comments.
In your last paragraph addressed to grandson of Jemal one of the Master mind criminals of the Trio,you <ARE ACTUALLY GIVING FREE VERY GOOD ADVICE to Mr. Hassan Jemal.Take it or leave it Mr. Hassan.The ball is in your side now!
One more thing though, exactly like I commented on your previou spost couple weeks ago,not only Hassan Jemal but even (it was , re Taner Akcam´s article) all these "emissaries" ought to first appeal, nay Plea with their government to accept the facts as they are.To come and peach (Lo Lo gartal) to us in Diaspora or even in Homeland(lately) does not ,will not succeed.
I also remember that exchange of wheat on way to Armenia, as an old time friend Levon Surikian was one sent in from a U.S establishment to supervise the exchange...
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
bgaytzag palandjian
Seervart,with due respect, I am in full agreement with APiligian and Harb. What useful purpose and outcome will this serve. I think that we all agree that the Armenian government has to be more
responsive to needsof the people,but there are only two ways to influence the outcome of a sitting government..... lobbying and elections(coalitions or parliamentary elections). The ARF chose to exit
(correctly I believe)the government,but the role of loyal opposition/populist party is not without challenges. Idon't think this strategy will improve their lobbying efforts and the coalition option has been abandoned for the time being. That leaves theelectoral process which is not an immediate option. So how do you perform the loyal opposition role.... rally the people in a constructive manner to implement change. It's a much slower, but far more beneficial process for the future of Armenia. This sounds like a plan for confusion and tension that reallydoesn't involve the citizendry.
When the ARF announced that they were exiting the government, I thought it was a good move for two reasons..... one it was(and is) what Armenia needs togrow democratically and two it is much more inline with the role and capabilities of the ARF(conscience of the nation). The continued democratization of Armenia is our biggest challenge. It is tied to the core issues of the nation......
Democracy......investment.......employment...... stability and growth of the population.... a future for the young people. The ARF can play a major role in this tranformation,
You have completely misunderstood what I am saying and you are being either dishonest or are just not very well versed in economics. First and foremost, the amount of gains we saw in the standard of living for Americans, when it was a laissez-faire economy have been unsurpassed. I AM NOT ADVOCATING STATE CAPITALISM. I will say it again. I AM NOT ADVOCATING STATE CAPITALISM. I hope that clears things up a bit. Do you understand that in a real capitalist economy, there would be an abundance of employers, as all entrepreneurs with any sense would love to take their capital to a place that has a high amount of economic freedom? They will, by necessity, bid up the price of labor in the long run unless you can assume that all employers would form a cartel and collude against laborers. But if you have ever taken a game theory course, you know that cartels don't work unless they are done coercively, that is through government regulation. For you to assume labor would remain stagnat does not hold up well in practice or theory. Why do you assume that Armenia will be a giant sweatshop? Do you think that only giant multinational corporations will flock to Armenia to exploit our people? Has it not occurred to you that there are honest business people with capital who would also flock their in droves.
Also, I never said to rid ourselves of rule of law. I can cede on education for the young via school vouchers for the poor, but we do not owe anyone health care or education. For you to claim that is to say that your child has a claim to my services. So either you have a claim to my production, or I have the claim to my production. It can't be both, so which is more fair? Parents owe their children security, education, and health care, not me. I also think that an "every man for himself " approach is the only honest way to go. If you need help, you turn to friends, family, neighbors, and charities/churches/mosques/synagogues/temples/etc. What you don't do is look to the government to coercively steal from me, to give to you, and keep a portion for itself .
Those countries you refer to are MIXED economies, not socialist, and they all use the capitalist price mechanism, and if it were not for capitalist countries, they would be unable to even calculate meaningful prices. I use north Korea and Cuba and the USSR, because they are actual socialist countries. Also Norway makes so much money because it is an oil-exporting nation.
America too, is a mixed economy. Are you suggesting that we are also functioning as a modern socialist nation?
Furthermore, the amount of wealth that a person gets is in relation to how much good he is doing for society. If I am creating a good many people like, I will and should get wealthy. Profits are a sign that I am doing something that society values, more than they value the money they have given to me. THIS IS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL. Also if some company is making huge excess profits, there will be others that join the industry, thus bidding up the price of employees, lowering the profits made by the original businessman, and will lower the costs to consumers. Natural monopolies are extremely hard to come by.
The bottom line is this, there are too many inefficiencies and dead weight losses that come with centralization of power. Plus the dicencentives that come about with socialism, as well the trampling of natrual rights makes my head spin. Our ends are the same. We are both looking for a better Armenia, one in which are children can excel and thrive. I believe that our corrupt bureaucracy will not allow this to happen as they are all blood-sucking parasites who are in bed with the oligarchs of Armenia. The only way to solve this is to decentralize power, and allow individuals, who cannot use the coercive power of the state, to build a new and competitive Armenia, one that can succeed and thrive in today's economy. You must remember that it is not altruists that go into government, it is the megalomaniacs. The people that fund them are the big businesses who know they will get benefits when "their guy" comes into power. The only way to eliminate this is by completely seperating government from the economy. When politicians get involved into economic affairs, the first things bought and sold ARE the politicians.
Lastly, in a capitalist society, slavery could not occur, as no one can do anything against their will. It is all VOLUNTARY TRADE FOR MUTUAL BENEFITS.
Hey Mehmet, you Turks have enslaved us for centuries, and we believe that the time is ripe for an old good fashioned revolution. You simply cannt expect 22 million Kurds stay mumb about Turkish atrocities against Kurds. But the time is clicking slowly and surely for the day we will engulf Turkey in fire. We are a patient people, and we will not wait 94 years like the Armenians so patiently are. Our freedom is just around the corner. Wait and see...
I just read the following statement made by Dumanian above: "Now that the Great Avo has made the decision to “get back” our lands (lands that we never had and were never a majority in), everybody else has to figure out a way to bypass international law, solve the Turkish military threat."
I am fascinated by the pro-Turkish, historitcally inaccurate claim of Dumanian that Armenians were never in the majority in Western Armenia. I guess what he really meant to say is that AFTER the Turks murdered, abducted, deported and forcibly Islamized Armenians (over a few hundred years), and brought huge numbers of Kurds up from the south, plus Muslims from the Balkans and God knows where else, THEN the Armenians were not in the majority.
I am always fascinated by Armenians who parrot pro-Turkish propaganda. I guess they get a rise out of hearing other Armenians react to what they say because otherwise no one would pay any attention to them. It's sort of like when a child throws a temper tantrum to get attention.
Why do people insist on arguing from fantasy and not from reality? Grow up. The world does not operate on the basis of romance or justice, folks. Get a grip. Get real. If you really want land so badly in Turkey, go there and buy it. There are some very beautiful places, especially along the coast. The Brits, the Dutch and any number of other people are purchasing homes there. There are plenty of amazing properties on the Prince's Islands...there's even an Armenian one, with a church. You can be there, too. It's very, very beautiful. But, don't expect anyone to give eastern Anatolia back to you, anymore than Boston will go back to the native Americans or Alaska to the Eskimos. This is the way of history, like it or not. And, even if you (or Armenia) got it, what would you or they, do with it and the 10 million + people living there? Until this kind of bogus nationalist discourse comes to an end, you will continue to argue amongst yourselves and ignore what you have, as you pine away for something you will never have. Once again, there is, there really is, an azad and angakh haiastan...check the map, folks. Take good care of it, otherwise, you might lose that too. And then, who will you blame?
Well, sorry but we are generous and understanding people who care about other people's pain and sorrow. We don't want anyone hate us, and determined to help all in need despite some fanatics.
We've learned our lesson from the past; we are now better prepared against all those who manipulated and deceived their peoples against us in the past, with false hopes and promises of bright future, independence, and wealth. All they got was pain and suffering, and almost the entire Ottoman nations not only lost their freedom but also their dignity at the hands of Western colonialism.
We will stay calm, and not get provoked tis time, and keep our hand in the air waiting for the mutual shake. Still our other hand is read and our fist is tight in case of any physical threat. So you choose which of our hands you would like?
Have a great and wonderful day,
Keeping Selcuk happy or unhappy - yeah, that sounds like a very healthy point in an argument, Avo. Can't you come up with a win/win solution whereby both of us are happy? No, because you only care about your Armenian interests. That being at the expense of another's interests is irrelevant to you it seems. Then why should Turkish people bother to dignify this selfish mentality of yours with a response at all? If you don't care for them, why should they care for you? Had ASALA continued its terrorist acts today, do you think you could even find Akcam's and Pamuk's today? You wouldn't find a SINGLE person to correspond with.
Everybody should know that there is nobody, no international organization or country in the world, that can put the events of the common history into the right perspective other than the Turkish and Armenian nations themselves. Your hatred is not helping this happen.
I walked out of that presentation when Hasan said that we should just be "a little more patient "and wait to see if any Turkish government will accept responsibility for the genocide. I thought it was most disgraceful, and made mockery of our beloved parents and grandparents for all that they had suffered and endured.
Ferhat, you speak so old-fashioned. Read some newspaper man ! This isn't 80's anymore. Time must have been clicking reaaaaally slowly for you.
Oh that's right -- by beginning from a position of "we want Western Armenia" back, we are beginning from a position of strenght.
No, the truth is -- like Robert Kocharian's attempt at getting Europe to make genocide recognition a precondition for Turkey's annexation into the EU, it will only underscore our weaknesses. Turkey held its breathe for one minute when Kocharian sent that letter to Brussells, but once Brussells responded negatively, the Turks were more convinced and felt less threatened by genocide recognition. Now they can completely ignore us in full confidence. Had we not done that, maybe Turkey would have placated Armenia (I doubt it though) to show Europe it's being somewhat nice to us. Instead, Kocharian calmed Turkey's fears by proving that the genocide is a non-issue for the EU, and it can say and do whatever it wants towards it.
The Turks (and everybody else) knows very well that we, in fact, can do absolutely nothing to get Western Armenia "back" (although we never had it). Just like how we can't do anything to get Europe to make genocide recognition a pre-condition. To extremely simple minded people like you, this might seem like a valiant struggle. But in the real world, it underscores our weaknesses.
Look at Azerbaijian's repeated threats for a renewed war. The fact that they don't do it and have been talking about it for 10 years shows that, they in fact, can't and wont. Similarly, America's threats at invading Iran sound a little half hearted because it doesn't seem like they can -- the Iranians are using this loop hole to the fullest extent. Georgia's calls about "liberating" Abkhazia and South Ossetia fell flat on their faces once it became obvious that they could do nothing about it. They've hushed up since then. Now they talk about Russian aggression and occupation.
Similarly, Turkish threats about "showing the Armenians our teeth" and "invading Armenia" stopped once the Russians began monitoring the border. Everybody knows they won't do it -- so why would they only underscore their weakness by reminding the world that they can't?
Haha "show my cards" -- as if Turkey and the international community are that stupid.
mehmet, really? Is one hand in the air and the other one is a fist? No joking. Thank you for warning us. Can we be your friends? But be nice this time around. So, no more manipulation? So it was England, Germany and France who manipulated ittihad into the Armenian Genocide? Yes? And little ataturk --we all know he was a puppet, and how couldn't he: his best legacy is that you can get alcohol almost anywere in so-called "turkey", the only Islamic "country" where it's so easy to get it-- was instigated by Russia to march against Armenia, I gather! Now, that explains it. Really, can we be your friends? You scare us, mehmet. Your "country" --which really is not a country and is not yours, as you would know very well if you read good books instead of bad turkish newspapers-- has been rotting for a long time. It's just of matter of sitting and waiting. We saw the Soviet Union collapse, we saw Yugoslavia explode into tiny bits. We will just sit and wait. Keep your hand closed "tight" into a fist: you won't even be able to pick up the little pieces.
so-called "turkey" and the international community are no more stupid than you. Get together with selcuk for some dolma and, as your turkish friend suggests, listen well to turkish interests in the matter: you have a very keen ear for that. Yes, yes, I know, little selcuk wants us to take turkish interests into account but they won't consider Armenian ones. Why should they, right? We are a tiny speck on the map. This much I know: if Armenia ever needed someone to defend its interests, you wouldn't be the last one on one million lists with one million candidates. Then again, I propose we send you as a good will ambassador to Constantinople, and while you are entertaining your friends the rest of us works for Armenian interests.
Selcuk, you have been tricking Armenians since 1890s and all the way to 2009. All your promises are "garbage," you might trick the Armenians with these empty "protocols," even though everyone knows you are playing a game. But, make no mistake, we are two dofferent people. You are relative newcomers to Asia Minor, whereas Armenians and Kurds, 2 indo-European peoples have inhabited these lands for thousands of years. But make no mistake, you won't be able to trick us with allowing us Kurdish radio broadcasts, that does us absolutely no good. We need independance and we need it now. Our patience is running real thin, one small provacation and 22 million Kurds will stand up and bring the collapse of the Turkish republic. You Turks have no gentlemanly and honest manners. You lie and stab other peoples in the back. You lied to the Armenians, you promised us everything, but delivered us only pain and suffering. You know damn well that you massacred 2 million(French historians claim between 2-3 million Armenians were butchered by Turks) Armenians, you used us to do some of your dirty jobs. But, Kurds are a proud people, and we are Not scared of the truth..time and again we accepted our complicity in the murders of these innocent 2 million Armenians, how about you? Don't you people have any pride, any ba--s? Shame on you all.
My message to all Armenians: If you believe one word from this Turkish government, then you are forever condemned to be absolute FOOLS. They fooled you, the Greeks(Cyprus), Albanians, Kurds and many other peoples. They have no honor at all. These are genocidal maniacs running amok, and read my words, they will commit the same exact GENOCIDE agains you and against us, without any hesitation.
So, don't be fooled by their empty promises. If they really were  honest, they would have accepted the Genocide 90 years ago, but they are not men, like women, they hide inside skirts and then jump out and strike you on your back.
Selcuk, Armenians are nicer than Kurds, and won't offend you with bad language, but hear this from a fed up Kurd: SHUT UP AND LEAVE OUR LANDS, AND GO TO YOUR ASIAN STEPPES AND RAISE SHEEP AND HUNT.
Dear Sonya jan, I wish every other Armenian present had done the same thing you did! Walk out of that presentation when Hasan said that (we should just be "a little more patient" and wait to see if any Turkish government will accept responsibility for the genocide).
I just wish that every Armenian present had your wisdom and your justified good soul.
One more thing Sonya jan, when you walked out of that presentation, not only you made my own paternal grandparents and great grandparents' along with their childrens' poor souls happy, not only you made my maternal great grandparents' souls along with their childrens' souls happy, but you made the rest of 1.5 Million Armenians' souls happy that they did not even had a grave for their wreched bones which have been scattered all around their own anscestral homeland for thousands of years. Thanks to Hasan Cemal's grandfather, Jemal Pasha, Talaat Pasha and Enver Pasha of the Turkish government of 1915.Â
I thank you again dear Sonya for your good sense and your morality.
Hye Mehmet Faith, you have my sympathies... you have been educated in your schools to a history book which has been prepared with lies from your Turkish leaderships... the truths shall shock
you - over and over for each of the lives taken. Ottoman Turks killed peoples of the Chrisitan religion - to take their lands, culture and more to 'house' the 'hordes' from the Asian mountains - so the Turks shall have a homeland, fully equipped, and more, albeit stolen from an unarmed nation... Stolen, since they slaughtered and terrorized the Armenians for their lands. Today, subsequent Turkish leaderships continue their policy of lies - the Genocide of the Armenians 'never happened' though the world over, there are many instances of record for those who are able to read. Today Turks still pursue the Armenians, all the world over, hence until today, the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians has not ended, the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation still exists - never to be forgot; reparations due and owing - still... 1915-2009. Manooshag
Manooshag
"I am fascinated by the pro-Turkish, historitcally inaccurate claim of Dumanian that Armenians were never in the majority in Western Armenia. I guess what he really meant to say is that AFTER the Turks murdered, abducted, deported and forcibly Islamized Armenians (over a few hundred years), and brought huge numbers of Kurds up from the south, plus Muslims from the Balkans and God knows where else, THEN the Armenians were not in the majority."
Please, spare me. The Armenians never constituted a majority in Western Armenia in the 19th or 20th centuries. We were a plurality (about 40% of the population). The Muslims outnumbered us. I'm using Richard Hovhanisian and Professor Suny's statistics from their books. The only places the Armenians were clear cut majorities in was our Caucasian homeland (so...present day Armenia + Javakhq, Nakhijevan, and Artsakh). And even than, Caucasian Armenia was nowhere near as homogeneous as it is today.
If you want to know the truth, the Armenians helped the Seljuks defeat the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantines had a clear policy of trying to assimilate Armenians into the Greek Church. The Turks were nowhere near as oppressive, at least originally.
You're misudnerstanding of what happened in Anatolia in the early Ottoman era is unfortunate. Some of what you said is true, some of it is not, some of it is an exaggeration, but none of it can form the basis of a state's policy. Explain to me again, why you wanted to touch upon this subject?
Do you people realize that the classic definition of insanity is when someone does the same exact thing over and over again, but expects to get a different result? If you want a different result, change the activity.
To ED:
Turkey will not suffer by not ratifying the protocols even if Armenia does. Turkey gets away with everything - with Cyprus, human rights violations, mistreatment of Kurds, not opening its ports to Cypriot ships as it promised the EU few years ago, closing the border with Armenia (since 1993), repressing Christian rights, and much much more.
You are such bad players that the fans of the rival team are rooting for you. You are the proverbial soccer player who scores against his own team to the delight of the rivals. The "alternative" policies advocated for an Armenian foreign policy on turkey are variations of the humbling attitude of submission to the ottoman masters because they are big and they can do with us whatever they want. It should be noted that the current Sargsyan administration follows such a policy with very uncertain results.
turkey has absolutely no incentive whatsoever to accommodate any Armenian interest, no matter how much Armenia gives up. It does not matter if we give up our land demands in the spirit of realism, it does not matter that we renounce Genocide recognition or if we cease to demand reparations. Nothing there counts. The relationship is so assymetrical, the odds are so massively against any Armenian capacity for coercion, that turks are only using dilatory tactics to gain time, defuse this embarrasing issue of the Genocide, make the world forget even the very little it knows or cares about Armenia and then squeeze us out of our land, either by economic pressure, demographic assimilation, war or a combination of all these factors thereof. All that matters to them is that Armenia is a tiny little country that cuts off the two halves of the turkic world. It's almost a law of nature that they want to join their kin as they tried for quite a bit during the 20th century: in the same way that Armenia had to liberate Lachin in order to unify with Karabagh as matter of national survival for both halves of the Armenian world, the turk naturally see us as an obstacle. So, all they need from us is that we get out of our way. Of course it's not easy, it's not going to happen overnight but wise states operate with a historical perspective and they know that by attrition, sooner or later, they can get their way. As the Germans say, "For the hammer, all the problems are nails." For the turks, the same.
They certainly can get their way. Or they cannot, if we stand firm. They need us out of their way, and hence we must have the least possible relation with these people. They have proved, over and over and to this date, they are Armenia's enemies: they are blockading Armenia in solidarity with Azerbaijan, they support militarily and economically Azerbaijan, they want us out of Karabagh, they deny the Genocide ever took place or that Western Armenia was Armenian at all and the we all are a bunch of hot head lunatics and liers. Armenians under ottoman rule led miserable lives, punctuated by massacres and our extermination, the onslaught against the nascent Armenian Republic of 1918. What else do we need to see that turkey is our enemy and that it has consistently been our enemy regardless of how Armenians have been towards turks? Subservience only brought what? The massacres of 1894 and 1896? The massacre of Adana in 1909? They have not changed one bit. They don't have to. All of their murderous and genocidal behaviour has ben rewarded: they have kept our lands, the Genocide is ignored and their blockade made Serzh Sargsyan go begging to open up the border for the of fetid turkish cheese and crappy car parts. Why on earth would they have to accommodate just any --any-- Armenian interest?
Then again, I'm grateful that we have geniuses like our "realists". They are going to save Armenia.
Avo..you are an angry little man. Angry about history that took place well before you were born and can't change, no matter how angry you get. You are mortally angry at people you've never met and this isn't good. It isn't healthy. You are so angry at 'Turks', but don't stop to realize that Turks are in Anatolia because of the help Armenians gave them at the very beginning. You are angry but don't stop to realize that for a thousand years, Armenians paid their taxes and were very much appreciated for what they could contribute to the empire. They owned the Ottoman empire as much as anyone else...they were there first, remember. Armenians were not 'submissive', they had been conquered. They figured out how to survive. But I'm telling you, at this point, everyone is chasing the wrong cat, and this is exactly the result some people want more than anything else. You are falling right into the trap that was set a long time ago, unfortunately, and perpetuating the myth. Divide and conquer always works...but only if you cooperate in making the division happen.
How inventive - a paper at MESA on nationalism and nationalism in Turkey.
If "Coca Turka", as explained above, why not Coca Talaat Pasha? Or instead of Uncle Ben's Rice, why not Uncle Enver Pasha's Rice?
You know, Camel cigarettes still advertise that they are made from Turkish tobacco. The brand's old advertising slogan was, if you're old enough to remember, "I'd walk a mile for a Camel." That may still be the slogan. I don't know.
In any case, how about a pack of Camel cigarettes having a picture of a member of the Special Organization (Teshkilata Makhuseh (sorry I may have spelled that incorrectly)) saying something like, "I'd walk a hundred miles to accompany a death march into Der Zor." ? I think Turkish consumers would really go for that sort of nationalism.
Armenian Genocide Is Not a Shakespearian Play
What is genocide?
Vanishing a gene!
Genes of virtuous people
Who built Etchmiadzin!*
I opened my eyes,
Hearing genocide,
When my ancestors
Perished in their homeland.
The Turkish emperors
Established cultures,
Killing a loyal nation,
Cleansing them, unsound.
Most nations
Recognized our genocide,
But civilized courts deliberately ignored,
Leaving hopes of sufferers to rot!
How we can forget
Our sad events?
If we try to forget,
Our descent will end!
Kill a young man and say,
“This was war’s turmoil.”
Crush scholars’ skulls
Smash the contents’ core.
To state, “That’s anatomy lesson,
Who said genocide?”
Lance bellies of pregnant brides
With scimitar sword
To guess the unborn sex.
Yet unseen the light:
This is C-section,*
Unnamed genocide!
Run after virgin girls—
Enjoy endless rape
Till they reach a stage
To take lives away!
This is Eden’s garden.
Never counts genocide!
Hurl boys in rivers
In cold April spring,
Forcing them to swim,
Ending lives in streams.
Say, this is a jape,
None says genocide!
Put gendarme on doors,
Counting all households,
Turning houses to prisons.
No one can escape!
Collecting them, then
Chucking them in carts
Pushing them hungry
To sunny desert—Der Zor;**
Then declare, “This is a camping ground,
Never shades genocide!
How can we forget
The ancient land we left?
We left everything—
From pen to ink.
Treasures we forgot,
Plants, animals,
Is it fair to forget
The dear ones we left?
We became immigrants
Near to far-away lands.
Humans’ looked after us
Since 1915.
We started our life,
Working keen and hard,
Begging from no one
Silently, blaming our God!
We became their guests—
Flourishing in host lands.
Never knew others
Hurting Armenian hearts.
They respected us,
This was genetically natural;
Without any knowledge
What meant, human rights!
They called us
Trustful, peaceful,
Precise people
In any job, minds crafts.
Rich Bedouins* took women
As their second wives
After saving their lives
From bloody rivers piled.
*
They could not pronounce
Their difficult names.
They called them Miriam
(Messiah’s mother name),
Respecting their religion,
Never forcing their faith!
Same religion as Turks
But courteousness genes, bates.
Every Armenian has a story to tell,
Access the Internet to read agonies there.
Civilized senators, knowing human rights,
Still sinfully deny the century-long genocide!
Holocaust sufferers
Also forgot us!
God, can you hear
How humans bend to unfair fear?
Our deep, unhealed pain,
We feel intensely in our arteries, nerves, veins.
We feel with all human souls,*
Lamenting their losses from core to core.
If every Turk were author Orhan,**
No one will slaughter Kurds and Armenians!
If every parliament respected the human soul,
No one will follow the criminal’s goal.
Killer genes need mapping,
Altering to the kindest type.
Aiming for scientific miracles
Vanish, the genes of genocide!
Turkish-Armenian protocol signed despite ANCA’s unsuccessful campaign.
Turkey and US has a powerful strategic partnership....ANCA is out of gas now!!!!
Dear Armenians. Currently Turks are trying desperately to fool us Kurds with empty promises. They teach us to hate Armenians. This is no lie, they point blank ask us/ force us to hate the Armenians, and all the time we look around and see no Armenian soldiers killing us, no Armenians jets bombing us...but only Turkish army and air force jets bombing innocent Kurdish villages and killing innocent Kurds.
Selcuk, your name alone sounds violent and bloodthirsty. What are you talking about "reading" some newspapers? Oh, big deal, after 100s of years of slavery, you benevolent Turks giving your enslaved subjects a few phony baloney favors? Do you honestly believe that we are buying the "too little too late" useless offers?
Unlike you Turks, Armenians are more accomodating allowing your posts to appear on Armenian forums, whereas Kurds and Armenians are not allowed to post messages on Turkish forums. It tells volumes about you Turks.
To all Armenians, an advice from a humble Kurd: Please don't let your guard down, the Turk will strike you when you least expect it. Yes, there are few good Turks, like Orhan Pamuk, who are tired of this nonsense occupations and killings, but the majority of Turks are as you know, vicious and cold murderers. If you don't believe me, check the histories of the following peoples: Albanians, greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians and Kurds, and you see that one thing stays constant: Turkish massacres of innocent Albanian, greek, Bulgarian, Armenian and Kurdish peoples.
Wished the Turks they Never left central Asia.
IT IS MUCH MORE THAN RECOGNITION-ACKNOWLEDGMENT ,
Whether by U.S., U.K. and /or others.Even by republic of Turkey.Not only the question of reparations-come up almost immediately after that,but what is worst of all for the Turkish diplomatic as well as their allies "circles" almost a century old-lie will be dis-covered for the world public ,thus rendering them an awfull blow.They will loose all prestige, nay respect and much needed confidence , so far lodged in them .Ruling a world that unjustly....
For the world does in indeed owe JUSTICE to Armenians...
Hama Haiagagani SIRO,
gaytzag
As I said, Karekin, you are already on the other side. You are a happy little man. Their buffoon. It saddens me to see an Armenian in that position, but then again maybe you are not even Armenian, or if you had an Armenian name and surname, you have disowned it a long time ago. For all practical purposes, you are liliputian turk. "The Armenians owned te Ottoman Empire as much as anyone else"!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
HAHAHAHA.
HAHAHAHA.
Did you read that in Bernard Lewis, the "renowned scholar". You have been told, read and believed so much rubbish that I don't think there is redemption for you. You know what, little karekin? The permanent pattern of your interventions are in defense of the ottoman past, of turkey's good intentions and always aiming at belittling Armenian interests and arguments.
"The Armenians owned te Ottoman Empire as much as anyone else". HAHAHAHAHAHAA. I have better things to do. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Thanks for the good laugh though.
PS: HAHAHAHAHA.
Yes indeed kudos is due to this very courageous editor and commentator Ms. Goldberg of IJN. I hope matters surrounding the Armenian Genocide starts changing from now on. Thank you Ms. Goldberg.
Spending 31 years working behind the scenes in human rights I find it a sad commentary that Armenia and Armenians have not taken some kind of public lead in international human rights, or; international criminal human rights, children's rights, women's rights, trafficking of humans across international borders, etc. You seem to speak loudly to yourselves and I think among yourselves. But the world is falling apart as we speak and you have to get in line if you want me to listen. My opinion is perhaps only one small voice but: I understand that stature and clarity of one's position within the international community begins and ends with service to the world community at large.
And: The fact that I have found this rather obscure comment sight should speak volumes about my interest in the Armenian Genocide. So I say and offer to you: Perhaps you can help persons like myself clairify issues for other oppressed throughout the world, becoming a 21st century image of the suffering servant so elequantly written about in the Bible.
To Ferhat:
I am not sure, you are really Kurdish. May be you are acting as a Kurdish.
Turkish government had terrible mistakes against Kurdish and alevi origin people in the past. Currently there is an optimal political climate to resolve socio-cultural issues. Kurdish worker party (PKK) and it’s supporters have finally understand that, you can’t get nowhere with violence. Turkey is our country (belong to all ethnic group). Turkey is a great country and Turkey is getting economically and strategically more powerful in the region. We need to live in peace.
Get over with your ethnicity based hate filled old fashion psychotic ideas. Spend more time and effort for peaceful solutions.
I am 95% sure that Turkey Prime Minister Erdoghan will succeed. He is the right son of his own people.
Dear Nora Palandjian,
Belatedly ,I contact you ,as you will note ,because it may just be that we are related,albeit far...perhaps,but anyhow.I am glad to see a Palandjian as a Sports commentyator? correspondent.
Best,
gaytzag palandjian(in Europe ,now for a while)
Mr. Ali,
Even if we pretend ANCA or ALL Armenia efforts are -temporarily-as you wish to indicate, we are a patient people, overpatient ,in fact...
Let us wait and see...
Mr.
I don't deal in propaganda or insults, especially ones that come from not only angry, but stupid, completely uninformed people. There's much worse I could say, but will not insult the Weekly by adding that to this list. Suffice to say, Armenians should not be attacking Armenians, especially when they have alot to learn themselves. So, good bye....go find some other Armenian to bash. I don't take that crap from you or anyone else. Adios...
"Yalanci Dolma" superbly expressed! It also reflects the ignorance of history played out in a recent NYTimes editorial regarding Switzerland's myopic stand on Turkish and Kurd minorities(some 30,000) requesting Minarets. The Times editorial took the government to task for their stand. I ask whatever happened to the centuries old Armenian churches in Turkey? What is still happening their in the removal of Armenian words from buildings?. "Yalanci Dolma" should be translated into "Never accept or trust the word of a Turk."
I am not sure Avo has ever cared to read Ottoman history at all. The Ottomans promoted Armenians in many areas. It is the Ottomans who moved (maybe you would wanna call this "deportation" as well?) thousands of Armenians from Anatolia into Istanbul to enhance trade who was mostly at the hands of the Greeks. The number of Armenians working in government offices, especially foreign affairs, was too many to list here. There were so many Armenian musicians whose music is still revered in Turkey. How can one produce one of the best classical Turkish music if he does not feel himself deeply a part of the Ottoman culture ? There were so many Armenians serving in the Saray. The Armenians in Anatolia used to dress like Turks (wearing turban and all) and some of them spoke only Turkish. They were called, until the 1860's when they started revolting, "Loyal nation" by the Ottomans. If you don't believe me, ASK ANY ARMENIAN IN ISTANBUL.
"I ask whatever happened to the centuries old Armenian churches in Turkey?"
Look at the dire situation of old churches in Armenia. Read this http://hyemedia.com/2009/12/04/urgent-effort-needed-to-save-monuments-from-destruction-in-armenia/ and see for yourself. Still speaking of ignorance, are you?
Proud Kurd all the way. Our ancesters, the Medians were, are and will be here . So, alipasha, you have no choice but to live with us, the indigenous peoples of these lands. You Turks should all pack and head back to central asia.
Alipasha, your sarcasm does not do you any good. For the last 1000 years of service to the Turks finally got us "free Kurdish language TV?" Is this how you reward us? As I said before, you used us Kurds against Armenians. Two weeks back, while in Diyarbekir, I met with so very unhappy fellow Kurds, who are tired of Turkish B.S. and lies.
We have had absolutely no issues with the Armenians, you keep enflaming anti-Armenian sentiments in our community, basically you are using us. This time, my violent Turkish friend, it will not work. We look like fools, and act like fools, when you are around us, and yes, we tell every Turk we meet that we hate Armenians, but the truth is the opposite. Ever since the Turkish republic was created, you have bombed and killed us, we Never saw one Armenian soldier bombing and killing us. besides, what reasons do we have to hate Armenians? You killed 2-3 million Armenians, you used us to do some of your dirty work, and then you turned on us.
It is time you Turks come out of hiding behind the dress, and become real men, and accept your ancesters responsibility in the killing of millions of Armenians.
And your efforts to foment anti-Armenian sentiments will not work. When I'm with Turks, I tell them I cannot stand Armenians, since that is all you are interested in hearing.
Dear Armenians, as you are witnesses here, you noticed the arrogance of these Turks, because they own a powerful army, they think they can cow 22 million Kurds into submission. They don't understand that it is very possible to bog down the whole 1 million Turkish army with only 1,000 Kurdish freedom fighters. And as always, DO NOT believe one single word coming from the mouth of a Turk, and one wrong step you take, will cause this violent and bloodthirsty Turks to commit another Genocide.
Long live Kurdistan, long live Ocalan our leader, long live the Kurdish people. We will get our independance and establish our Kurdistan with Diyarbekir as its capital. The time is near, the revolution is very near, you will see small surprises.....they are coming your way.
Ah those nostalgic little seljuks, who miss good old ottoman times... how sad to see all these people shedding tears over a romanticized past. Such a pity disloyal Armenians helped trigger the demise of the ottoman empire. Life was so good back then. Woe to us for causing the disgraces that befell us. We brought the Genocide on ourselves for revolting in the 19th century: how couldn't we see life was so wonderful. Why would we revolt? Why were so stupid?
Now, really, the Armenian Weekly is really an example of integrity, letting turks and others vent their anti-Armenian turcophilia to honor what in so-called "turkey" can cost you your life: freedom of speech. To any turk or turcophile who disagrees, the answer is Hrant Dink. Are there still objections? Yes, thousands took to the streets of Constantinople to grieve for him. Many more thousands celebrated, and policemen had their photo taken with the "hero" who murdered Dink, displaying the turkish flag. Of course it's our imagination if we see an uncanny resemblance with other photo ops that date back to 1915. That was all our fault. Dink's murder was his fault too: why should he have opened his mouth? Where did he think he was?
David, your comments are ti the heart of the matter for us as Armenians. We expect the world to
rally behind us in our request for justice; yet as a community we are relatively inactive when it came to Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and now Darfur. We are appalled when the Jewish community, as victims of genocide, do give the Armenian community its full support, but what have we done for
other victims and potential victims of genocide. We are reluctant to support others because our own
misery, from the frustration and anger caused by denial, has drawn us inward.
I have been active in the Armenian community all my life. I share the pain of Seervart, Sonya and others, but our anger will not convince the Turks to end denial and the global community needs our voice. We should be the loudest voice over the atrocities in Darfur. Are we? If not, how can we expect other to support us.
Turks come forward to help reconcile and break the dangerous isolation of our two peoples(really how many Armenians even know any Turks) and we challenge their motivation, are insulted by their approach and lead with our anger and hatred. From a pure political perspective, its sad and shows our naivety. We must become convinced that the world of politics is not driven by emotion.
I will not honor my grandparents by insulting Turks and projecting an image that three generations later we are fueled by hatred. I will honor them by perpetuating our heritage and our faith, which are inseparable. As a Christian, I cannot hate. We can work for our cause and not be full of hate. Our lack of interaction continues the stereotypes and constrains our progress. Just as we should be the strongest voice to end the terror in Darfur, we should also be encouraging the change going on in Turkish society. That was Hasan's message and it is our best hope. If we lower the hate index, we might hear the message.
The real issue here is why don't we have the energy to honor and acknowledge outside communities when they support us. It seems we expect their support so when they do , it's a bit taken for granted and when we don't our reaction is strong. Any Turk that publically support the genocide recognition
and is in any position of visibility is a courageous individual and should be supported. It is insensitive for us to claim"they didn't do far enough" or 'we'll see" . We don't have code 301 to worry about or ultra-nationalists lurking. We don't live in a society that has denied its people the truth and some are just beginning to experience a "reawakening". After all, as Armenians in America, where was the genocide on our agenda before 1965? We must pay more attention to supporting, and not taken for granted, the acts of others on our behalf. If we did more for Darfur, for example, we might have a different perspective.
Umm...we know the Armenians definitely prefferd Ottoman rule over Byzantine rule in the early years. After the 16th century, their Christian religion gave them dual citizenship in Europe. Because of this, the Ottoman government encouraged them to go to Europe, learn new trades and come back and teach the Ottomans. And when the industrial revolution kicks in -- the Armenians become an extremely well educated, and prosperous group of people in the Ottoman empire. Which is where the "how will we live without our stomach?" quote comes from.
But why are we discussing this again? Avo jan, I don't see in any way shape or form how what Selcuk said was what I said. He seems to have his own misconceptions about what I said and about history. Yet its funny to me how, all it took was for him to say "I like realists" for you to go nuts over what we said. Essentially, you skiped the part where you had to analyze things and decided that the best/default position should be the one opposite of the Turk. This is actually a wonderful example of what I was talking about how one side has accepted defeat, and one side is obsessed by it.
You are also, as an individual, so immature, that you undeservingly branded me, Karekin, and a few others all into one group. You also seem to have become hysterical.
To bring the discussion back into some form of relevance...I still haven't seen ANYBODY (Mihran seemed to be the only person putting some thought into things, but he's gone) refute any of the things I said. All Avo did was act like a child.
Trust me, the Turkish foreign minister would MUCH rather have the Armenians follow this policy of "trying to get Western Armenia" back. He would prefer them over the other serious people. Imagine a meeting between Hillary Clinton, a Davatoglu, and Kiro Minoyan -- I'm pretty sure Davatoglu would give the entire floor to Minoyan to make his case for why we should get Western Armenia back. They would MUCH rather have us make fools of ourselves than be taken seriously be the international community.
And Avo, you still didn't address the first point I made which was that REALISTS were the people WHO BEGAN THE DRIVE FOR INDEPENDENCE and the REUNIFICATION OF ARTSAKH (while the "NATIONALISTS" opposed it -- i.e. Dashnaks, Hnchaks, Ramgavars). And a REALIST adminstration was in power when the decision to join the ARTSAKH war was made. So explain to me why "traitor realists" ended up making what you seem to think as "pro-nationalist" decisions.
To FERHAT:
You are too angry, emotional and you are thinking not realistic.
Alright, please continue to live your little dream world!
Thanks!
Henry Doumanian, If you are happy about the course of foreign policy followed by the current Armenian administration --in the end, it seems that more or less it coincides with your views-- I don't know why you are so angry: it's all being put into practice.
What you say about the status of Armenians in the ottoman empire seems to be true mostly for the Constantinople Armenians and some amiras. In the end, however, conditions for Armenians in the Armenian provinces had deteriorated so much that an uprising was impossible. The Constantinople Armenians are still generally speaking a well-off bunch, if much shrunk and afraid of voicing anything that sounds remotely disloyal to their turkish masters. I don't if you have been to Bolis. Go and see for yourself what's the reality of turkey for the Armenians left there. I need to add nothing else.
Which brings me to what really concerns me, over which you and other "realists" got nuts. That turks are a completely unreliable people, and turkey an enemy state. I don't know if you know Archilochus' parable of the hedgehog and the fox, as analyzed by Isaiah Berlin. Essentially, it's that the fox knows many small things but the hedgehog knows one big thing. The turks have been hedgehogs and we had been foxes until our independence of 1918 and our new independence in 1991 and the war in Artsakh, when we also became hedgehogs.
The one big thing the turks know is that force pays, and that violence intimidates into appeasement. It's the German metaphor, "For the hammer, all the problems are nails". That's how turkey has thrived. We are dealing with an extremely unreliable neighbor, who used to be our master and ultimately had the right of coercion upon the ruled nations, esp. the infidel. It's all good in fantasyland, but in the end of the day it was turks who imposed their laws --and their scimitars-- over Armenians and other "infidel" minorities. So enough of this hogwash about the ottoman empire. I certainly hope that within 150 years we don't hear similar idiocies about the Soviet Union and that Armenians were having a great life there.
Basically you are going all over the place in terms of "realist" answers to turkey, and you don't seem to take into account that the way the turkish establishment sees us is like the former servants now ruling one room in the palace or, more accurately, a bothersome fly walking over the dinosaur. We are just a nuisance for turkey. They are threat to us. All of their history, and if you don't like, all of their last two centuries of history up to this date in what regards Armenians, is enough to show why.
The Davutoglus and all the others not only would mock me; they would mock people like you too. We just need to hang in there, and engage the turks as little as possible, without giving up our rights on principle. You seem to have enormous difficulties understanding that. You want trade with so-called "turkey"? Have trade. Open the border for that. You just don't sell your mother in order to have trade. You don't set up commissions and you don't give up what's yours just because you don't have the power to get it back by force. You only respect international law and diplomacy when it comes to accommodating the turks, not when it comes to defending what are our rights. You think that's childish. Fine. You certainly don't put on a circus act to get it back. That's why we have diplomats, and very capable ones. But you just don't give it up. I doubt you run your business --whatever it is-- like that. Or maybe you do, but that's your problem.
It's so sad to this kind of pathetic, almost silly, behavior by an experienced old party...
You just can't do without Turkey, can you? Can't do with it, can't do without it ! Some sort of mental disorder.
I am awed and fascinated and by such a complete, historical publication of the history of the Reich and the holocaust. Being a (child) survivor myself I have read so much of this history but never such a full and detailed text. Thank you for this marvelous work.
I would like to know if there is a publication of all or any of the letters from "Tante" Elisabeth Luz. This would be a most fascinating addition to the holocaust history.
Thank you for this very excellent work
FR. Rosenthal
Dear Armenians:
I am so sorry for using this medium to express our Kurdish frustration with Turkish murderers. I am thankful to Armenians for being kind and understanding in this matter. One thing that surprises me is the infinite patience Armenians have had with the Turks. Everything and anything that has happened and still are happening in current day Turkey, the Turkish government puts the blame squarely on the Armenians. The hatred against Armenians is preached day in and day out. Some Kurds, naturally are affected and start to believe the garbage fed to them. But of course the majority of Kurds know who is their enslaver and enemy, who for the last 70 years has been bombing and killing us. After hundreds of years, they finally promised to allow our Kurdish language to be thought in our schools.....BIG DEAL. Every Kurdish child DOES speak the language. What they don't understand is that we are striving to be FREE. Look at Cyprus, they attacked and occupied half of. But then they cry and scream about Artsakh, the ancestral homeland of all Armenians. Nowadays, no one seriously talks about Cyprus, but the whole world has gone down on Armenia, pushing hard and squeezing tiny Armenia to commit suicide. Even the remotest uneducated cattle herder knows that if Armenia relinquishes Artsakh, it might as well be erased from the surface of this world.
The moral of this post:
DO NOT TRUST THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT, EVER. IF YOU DO, THEN ARMENIA IS NO MORE.
Long live free Kurdistan.
Well, once again, the dogs are unleashed, and any hope of a conversation is axed. Racism and hatred overcome the dialogue that we all needed. After all, this is what some people are earning their lives from. Aren't those who are open to mutual understanding suffering the most from this?
Turkey is getting stronger each day; politically and financially. We are confident people of our past and future. How about you? What do you have other than hatred against Turks?
Have another wonderful day,
"What you say about the status of Armenians in the ottoman empire seems to be true mostly for the Constantinople Armenians and some amiras. In the end, however, conditions for Armenians in the Armenian provinces had deteriorated so much that an uprising was impossible."<br><br>
I wonder what kind of special detoriation, prior to uprising, did the Armenians face compared to Turks and Kurds living in Eastern Anatolia ? Do you mean to say Turks and Kurds were all rich and the Armenians were poor?<br><br>
"It’s all good in fantasyland, but in the end of the day it was turks who imposed their laws –and their scimitars– over Armenians and other “infidel” minorities."<br><br>
Believe me, Armenians in Ottoman empire had far more say with the Sultan than you have in the country you are living now. Please give me something other than "hear-say".
Bravo Ani!!!
Truth Seeker;
No one wants to call you a liar but let me explain some facts to you. First of all if you did adopt in 2002 many laws and rules have changed in the past 7 years. Carolina Adoption Services will not even accept an Armenian Adoption application from a prospective parent that is not with Armenian heritage. This Adoption agency is very honest about not giving any false hopes to someone without the heritage.
Carolina Adoption Agency has had 1 non-Armenian adopt and this gentleman was a big humanitarian in Armenia and did more for the country than most. He was well respected and loved by Armenia up to the President of Armenia. He met the child in Armenia and had the blessings of the Armenian government. This was an exception, not the rule.
There have been 2 physicians that were arrested in Armenia in the last 12 years for finding pregnant woman who were willing to relinquish their babies for a small fee. The child(ren) was then placed in the orphanage system for the minimum 3 month requirement and their photo and referral sent to the waiting prospective parent(s). They then quickly reserve the baby by writing their letter of intent to adopt to the Ministry of Armenia.
Most of the parents who adopt from Armenia have never stepped foot in Armenia prior to adopting some claim to have some Armenian heritage and their home study is wrtten as such to emphasize this claim, they become a "Born again Armenian" after the child arrives in their home they rarely if ever go back to Armenia or stay connected to the heritage at all as promised to the courts in Armenia.
I can assure you Truth Seeker that under todays laws and circumstances you would not be able to adopt a healthy child from Armenia. Unless you have a $100K to spend. Most Armenians would be pleased to learn that you read the Armenian Reporter, this is a good sign that you are interested in our culture. Hopefully you read it on a regular basis and learn of what is happening in our culture and our laws.
Last year barely 29 children were adopted to the USA from Armenia. 32 Armenian children went to Italy because of Armenia's preference for a European education and lifestyle for the children.
There are such few children available except for a few Special Needs and a few "manufactured babies"
Armenian citizens have first choice and their fee is less than $300.00, however in a country with 48% poverty not many Armenians can step forward with this kind of money. Likewise, in America's challenging economy and because of stricter laws International Adoption is down 30% in North America.
Mehmet;
Yes there is over 70 million turks througout Turkey, Kazakhstan, Turkministan, Azerbaijan, europe, etc., and barely 10 million Armenians. You come on here acting civilized and resort to refering to non-Turks as "Dogs"
Have you no understanding of your history? The ottoman empire brutalized the Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, Bulgarians, etc., there is a lot of aynomosity towards Turkey and it's ugly DARK past. Do we hate you individually? No. but we hate your government for not admitting to these atrocities and acting like they never did a dam thing. You are not even allowed to speak the truth in Turkey as under Penal code 301 you will be put into prison.
Your blood has Armenian blood in it as your ancestors migrated from the Mongolian plains to over take our beautiful Chrisitan Clicia our kingdom of democracy that was shared with our fellow Christians. Your ancestors tried to wipe out any trace of ancient cultures and do an injustice to your youth for not sharing history with them. instead you teach denial which is not healthy to your children. As a consequence a Turks still kill Christian missionaries in your country, kill the beloved Hrant Dink, helpless on the street. Hell it was even a Grey Wolf Turk that tried to assainate our last Pope.
Your countries lies that Armenians uprised so we had to contain them is CRAP! killing women and children is no excuse and we were no match with barely 3 million of us and 19 million Turkish people, it was a lie by your government to get the people to turn on it's citizens. Same with N-K, look at the history it has ALWAYS been Armenian land. .
Dialoug can happen if you would stop your arrogance of deniel and looking at non-Turks as if we are second-class citizens.
The first part to healing is acceptance, deniel is not healing.
Yes, Turkey is getting stronger every day and many have left for European countries and increase their populations. This makes Germany, France and the rest very nervous. We have never doubted how strong in numbers you are.
Hatred against Turks? Racism? Conversation axed?
Where is your love for the Kurds? You have forbidden our language to be thaught in our schools. That equals= RACISM
You have been bombing us since middle of 1928 and until today, 2009. That equals=HATRED
We have tried again and again to bring our issues, the issues of 22 million Kurds of Turkey to the Turkish government, and every time you refused to listen to our concerns. That equals=AXING THE CONVERSATION.
Now, all of a sudden you have become Mr. Nice Guy, hmmm, that's strange.
No one here is questioning Turkish power, economic and military. So, don't play victim here. We all realize the massive military power of Turkey, but along your military power, you should cultivate civilized manners, i.e. respect for human live respect for other peoples rights, respect for other religions. Just recently I found out that a church on the island inVan was restored, but then a massive Turkish flag was stuck on the church...you tell me whether that is respect or love for a Christian church. If you honestly like dialogue with us or the Armenians, stop hiding behind dresses, come on out, and let us all discuss with honesty and integrity. History is my witness: Not one single promise given to us by the Turkish government has been kept. You have decieved the Greeks, the Albanians, the Armenians and the Kurds all throughout your history.
Let me give you Mr. mehmet a very very very very very recent example:
Now, I am not an expert on this Turkish-Armenian protocols which were mediated by the USA, Russia etc etc. Just a few days after the signing of these protocols, Turkish deception went into high gear, and once again Turkey is playing the game by connecting Armenia-Turkey reapproachment with Armenia-Azerbaizan conflict. That showed the back stabbing nature of Turks. Nothing against you Mehmet, but everything against your government.
If you want to talk about FACTS, then I am here and will answer your every question regarding Turkey and Kurds. Don't bring to me the phony "we are friends" or "we are one family" and "Turkey belongs to all of us" lies, because Turkey belongs only for th Turks, otherwise, why was our language was not thought in our schools? We speak Turkish fluently, no need to become experts in Turkish language. But our children need to learn the Kurdish language, and our customs and traditions.
And as for the military power you have. You know damn well that a small group of freedom fighters CAN EASILY bog down 2-5 million soldiers with extreme ease and comfort. So, don't show your arrogance my friend, it can easily turn into tears and disasters.
My sincere apologies for all Armenians frequenting this forums. I understand that I keep bringing Kurdish issues here, but whether we are Kurds, Armenians, Alevis, Greeks or Albanians, we have all suffered death and sorrow on their hands. Thank you for your patience.
We will FREE KURDISTAN, it will take some time, but we will, you all will see.
Long term Turkey is in a no win situation with the its Kurdish citizens. The heart of the problem for Turkey is that it has been unable to treat this minority group as citizens. Sound familiar. The Republic of Turkey's predecessor government ordered the extermination of its own citizens in1915( and also the Assyrian and Pontus Greeks communites). For years the Turkish government has tried to behave as if the Kurds did notexist as a people(language,cultur,history). Denial forone that they murdered and a refusal for another that they continue to oppress.
Token cycles of "enlightenment" do little to convince the Kurds,let alone the world , of the sincerity of the Turkish government. But they are caught in their own trap. Encourage "freedoms" for the Kurdish community and momentum will be built for de facto autonomy. After all they do have a distinct culture and geographic presence in southeastern Anatolia. Continue to oppress their rights and the struggle will continue. In the mean time, the Kurds continue to observe the windfall the Kurds of Iraq have received in the emergence of democracy in Iraq.
The Kurds of today in Turkey are the Armenians of the past(minus the genocide). An oppressed minority within Turkey; whose rights will continue to be voiced bysucceeding generations. The emergence of a civil society,righteous Turkish movementand the Kurdish cause are opportunites for common cause with the Armenian nation. Our cause is motivated by 1915, but it is a struggle for 2010. We need to live in today's world ; as we honor our past.
The truth will always prevail. Gaytzag is correct.We are a patient people and in the end our
enduring passion for the truth will be honored. The Turks know that all their attempts, including the
work of Mr.Erdogan, are temporary in nature. Why? Because they are founded purely on the
current alliance of mutual geopolitical interests.When those winds change... and they will, the Armenian people and our cause will be there. Only the truth is permanent. It is onlya matter of when ; not if. Between geopolitical issues, internal change in Turkey and the inspiring work of the world wide Armenian nation, we will prevail. The sad irony is that Turkey could admit the truth,
blame a preceding government, sell it toits people and be hailed as "great reconcilers" by the global community. Probably get accelerated EU entry. At that point some of the sympathy for our people would evaporate; as they would support RECOGNITION, but be reluctant to join the reparation
discussion. From thier perspective, the complication is how to explain the denial of the last90 years.
No Turkish government wants that on their shift. But that problem is much easier to deal with ;while the enlightenment in Turkey is in its infancy. After all the Turks counted on succeeding generations of Armenians to assimilate and forget the genocide. How's that working out? The truth will liberate
your people!!!!
Turks obviously monitor Armenian sites.
Shouldn't Armenians monitor Turkish sites to have a clue for what they might be thinking/saying?
Such a disgraceful article, I can't believe it. Cig kufte is not as Turkish as an Arabic food. What Bordeaux? It doesn't even apply. You are shaming me with your unnecessary comments.
Please be personal, I don't mind. At the end of the day, I am not the teacher/doctor you can kill in Turkey, or the Turkish diplomat you can murder abroad. I personally forgive you for all your sins and murders, hopefully God will do the same for you, if you have a tiny piece of love for Him.
So please be personal when I say some people here and there are racist, and barbaric (=dogs who think writing "turkey, ottoman" with lower-case will make any good to their cause, or those who killed Hrant or those who believe an atomic bomb on Turkey will be just good). Just continue to spit your words, it is all better than killing my innocent people as you have done in the past. So shoot me or insult me with your words, I don't care. But be honest, don't direct it to a discreet body, like Turkish government since I elected them, and they protect my rights.
I had made my point earlier, some of you choose to shake hands, and some deserve the fist, I hope you all enjoy your choices in life :)
As for those into a decent debate for the Armenian issue, I am ready for discussion and will do my best to display the Armenian hatred and consequent atrocities that led to the events during that time. My basic point was it had never been a Turkish-Armenian issue, but it was Muslim-Christian issue, and it was a modern crusade, and we did what we had done many times in the past, we didn't surrender, but resisted after losing millions of lives and belongings in Rumeli. (Unarmed armenians? Who put the bullets in Turkish heads in Van?)
So, indeed, it is the weirdest thing that Kurds were forgetting how helpful they were against Armenian terror after Berlin treaty,almost all asirets very useful to maintain the order. Hamidiye Kurds (except Mihrali Bey's Turkomans) was the main Ottoman army against the Russian-Armenian army in the East, we are thankful to them in their struggle against the enemy. If they have done any crimes, it is God's decision to forgive them or burn them in Hell.
As for the Kurdish issue of Turkish Republic, unfortunately we have the upper hand today, since more Kurdish people are supporting the government than they support the PKK. They had prime ministers, and even a president. So yes, we have learned a lesson from our experience with Armenians. Well, having said that we don't have any far lands to relocate them, so have to live with them, doing what is necessary now after so many mistakes. It is their choice, too, to live in peace or die as terrorists.
Good luck to Erdogan in US, are you going to throw eggs to him again? I am sure he is more prepared this time, and brought his pan to do some menemen. Hmm, yummy.
I like using ******** to vent my frustrations, particularly when driving throughout Yerevan. No need to translate that here.
And I prefer a fine Rioja with my chigkufta. Either that or Cotes du Rhone, depending on my mood.
I would just find it the ultimate offense having to engage with someone called what you are called, defending the right of self-determination of any nation in the world, including the one you belong to and which it enjoys immensely at the expense of others' freedom and independence. I would, if there was any substance in what you say but it's all just hopeless rubbish. I will just say this: if an Armenian said something like that in what you call your own country --which you must know it's stolen land, from Constantinople to the borders with Armenia, Georgia, Iran and Iraq-- calling for the recognition of the Genocide or said a few truths about Ataturk, he would be immediately indicted under Art. 301 , and that would be perhaps the lesser of evils if someone doesn't take it into its own hands. Armenia does not live in fear of its own past and its truths coming to light: We have nothing to be afraid of and we have the integrity to own up our history. It looks like very few turks can do that. It takes dignity and courage to do it. We don't need to intimidate people into silence, ask them sing oaths of loyalty to "turkishness" in the schools and go begging and bullying around the world against the Armenian Genocide recognition and reparations.
And for all those preaching realism and the impossibility of fighting massive odds against us, just read how Karekin Njteh held up Syunik and Zangezur for the Armenians against the onslaught of the Soviet, Azeri and Turkish armies, with the capitulating government of the first independent Republic of Armenia ordering him to withdraw. He refused to budge and he held up against ALL odds, and he saved not only Syunik but the corridor to which we very possibly owe the territorial integrity of modern Armenia. That's the kind of men we need against turks and Armenia's enemies.
Enough said.
Mehmet, yes, turkey is getting stronger every day, economically and militarily: just like the Soviet Union in the 1980's, ten years before its collapse.
Mehmet, relocate? Your soldiers just killed an innocent young Kurd yesterday. We are on our lands, you are not. And what good it is for 22 million Kurds having a president/prime minister who is of Kurdish ancestery? California had an Armenian governor. USSR had an Armenian president, current Turkish president, Gul, has been proved beyond any doubt about his Armenian ancestery, and the list is long. Did they help Armenia? Did Torgut Ozal help the Kurds? Of course nor. Ozal was a Kurdish turncoat and a common criminal. His Kurdishness was amounted to nothing. Did Ataturk do any good to his Albanian friends? The CIA alleges that he is either of Greek or Albanian ancestery............
In any case, here you came and played the "victim" again. No matter how hard you try to convince us Kurds that we are this and that, it makes us strive more and more for our eventual independance.
Nothing against Turkish people, but everything against Turkish government. Don't take this personal, my issue is with the 100,000 soldiers occupying our Kurdish lands.
Once again, we can discuss the Kurdish issues in a civilized way, if you so desire.
Long live Ocalan, long live Kurdistan.
Dear Stepan, just for the record, ANCA which is an Armenian organization very well known throughout the States, has been working for the Armenian Genocide recognition for at least 30 years now as well as other Armenian organizations and communities throughout the world. You are saying as to where were we before 1965? Do you know what Talaat Pasha said right after the Armenian Genocide? He said that the Genocide was such an enormous blow to the Armenian people and nation that Armenians will not be able to raise their heads in 50 years. That's what he said and that's what he had predicted. And that's exactly what happened with the survivors. Their miseries and pains were so enormous, after leaving millions of little orphaned children, how could they? Put yourself in their position, and you will see why the Armenian nation's blow was so enormous that they thought about their own survival first. Right about in 1965, which was exactly 50 years after the Genocide that Talaat Pasha predicted, the Armenian nation started asking and demanding their rights for acceptance of the Armenian Genocide and for reparations.
For the record, I have been and I am always wholeheartedly thankful to the wonderful Mr. Orhan Pamuk, Mr. Taner Akcam and a whole bunch of Turkish intellectuals who today after knowing their country's Code of 301, they are brave enough and ethical enough to be siding with the truth and with the acceptance of the Armenian Genocide. May God bless them for that.
BTW; I have also been very much involved within the Armenian community and I do indeed support Darfur myself.
Well given the unbearable conditions of Armenia in a capitalist system, I find those mixed economies you speak of as a wonderful alternative; as long as the "mix" is more like Switzerland and Sweden.
It is important that our moral outlook of Armenia and Armenians of being one big family be reflected in our economic system. It is wrong for people to treat the children of their fellow Armenian neighbor differently than their own. The government must provide certain services that allow a person to reach their fullest potential, including education, healthcare, security, care in old age, care for the disabled, etc. These services are necessary, accordingly we can not (as is perhaps naively suggested) leave it up to people's good will to provide these conditions. These must be provided to each Armenian, and in turn we will gain loyal citizens who believe they owe their country, who will serve and advance their nation.
I didn't get past the suspicious title of this essay... Why is it "anti-Semitic" to point out the unmistakable Jewish/Zionist role in the Armenian Genocide?
Anyone that want to see the true nature of Zionism, or organized Jewry, should read Ralph Schoenman's book The Hidden History of Zionism: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/
It is well known fact that modern day Turks are a mix of various indignation nationalities with Turkic tribes that invaded the area 1000 years ago. Is not surprising that most Turks have Jewish, Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, or Kurdish genes. But regardless of their genetic makeup those who planned and carried out the Armenian Genocide were Muslims and Turkish nationalist that wanted to create a Christian fee country Turkey on the skeleton of Ottoman Empire. According to some scholars Hitler has some Jewish ancestry too, but that does not mean Jews were responsible for Holocaust.
Dear Seervart.... thank you very much for your thoughtful response. Relative to the "reawakening"in1965, my intent was not to be critical of the survivor generation. It's quite the opposite. I am in awe of what the Armenianversion of the "greatest generation" accomplished. I could never feelanything but love and admiration for mygrandparents andtheir peers. They gave us everything we have today from infrastructure to inspiration. My comment was focused on the reality that they chose the correct priority.... to build a community in the diaspora and especially in the case of the Dashnaktsotooyn to keep nationalism and "the cause" alive.I highly recommend Michael
Bobelian's recently published, " Children of Armenia". It provides great insight to the genocide recognition issue in America from its high profile in the early1920's to the dormant period of the 1930's until the 1960"s. My own personal view is that the 1965 change had more todowith a generational transfer of responsibility and the impact of the genocide on the succeeding generations born in the diaspora.
The ARF has had an incredible ability to adjust over the decades to the changing needs of the nation.From are revolutionary party that defended the homeland, it was the only party, in my view, that adjusted in this country to establishing a community frameworkandcontinues to this day. I credit the ARF almost single-handedly for maintaining nationism in the American diaspora. That traditional populist role has not translated into a majority parliamentary seats in Armenia, but i think they have recently made an attempt to return to its roots... a party of the people.... by playing the loyal opposition role. This is a huge opportunity, not only for the ARF, but for the evolutionof democracy in Armenia..... without which we will flounder.
Growing up in this country,I remember that the tri-color was viewed only as a Dashnag symbol and that only local gomidehs celebrated the Battle of Sardarapat( but Armenia never forgot) . I was
always upset that the entire Armenian community, because of partisan hatred, could not celebrate the 1918 equivilent of the Battle of Avarayr in 451. Without those brave people in 1918 our fate would have been similar to the impact if the Armenians from 451-484 had chosen a differnet path.
I enjoy your comments, even if we don't agree 100%(maybe 95%),it is obvious that you are driven by a love of the Armenian people and that is what counts!!!!!
It's tremendous that you've given this whole issue a good airing. I'v painfully noticed how it's been festering unhealthily in various nooks and crannies on the WWW. Hopefully getting it out in the light will lead to some much needed, reality based clarification in the relations between the Jewish and Armenian worlds and a more sober and detailed approach to the Armenian Genocide. It can't just be left to the loonies or they'll just push everything over the cliff. But the intimate connection between certain higher level dönmeh and the formulation of aggressive Turkish nationalism cannot simply be wished away.
Among U.S. politicians there are still honest persons.
Kurds are not terrorists but Turkish Governments is. What the bad news is that Obama still tries to use Turkish Government against Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Most Armenians today are pained by the knowledge that the Jewish Lobby (headed by AIPAC) in the United States is paramount in the denial and blocking of the reaffirmation of the Armenian Genocide. This - in and of itself - is a shameful and cannot be simply dismissed as yet another "conspiracy theory." This is what angers most of Armenians today and imagine if the reverse was true - "Armenian lobby denies the Holocaust." What would the Jewish reaction be to this vital role in horrific denial and towards Armenians? Yet again the victim is blamed for all the anguish and the unhealed wounds of an unrecognized genocide. The best and by far the only way to remove so-called "anti-semitism" (if you can call it as such when Armenians with greatest pain point this out) is for the Jewish people to take a righteous position and to demand from their organized community leaders like Abraham Foxman to once and for all end this shameful and ongoing act of the denial of the Armenian Genocide, since I do believe Jewish people must know very well the level of anguish the offspring of survivors go through. There will never be true human healing when there is so much injustice and mistruth.
The author needs to find out why his name is Rifat and not Rafael? Pressure? Hiding? From what? The Turks have always been very tolerant towards minority religions! And can it be taken advantage of? All you have to do is to ask a couple of poor people to take revenge in the name of religion. Denouncing the names of the writers is not a very good way of making a point. Surely he found a couple of articles refuting those theories. Where are they?
Avo, you are a true Armenian. You are the definition of our Armenian Ethos. The rest are just western liberal mental masterbationists that have no idea that the so called impossible is possible. They lack true Armenian warrior instincts. They lack the desire for Hay Tahd to be successful. It's important to fight our enemies, so called Armenians and the nameless barbarians when they spread their anti Armenianism, however do not engage them as if they are people. They are not. They are irrelevant. Think of them as irrelevant. Their existence is meaningless. Armenian in name only. Remember this, there are plenty of Armenians to reoccupy our historic lands and there are millions of Armenians who dont care anymore or stick their nose in business that does not concern them because if our lands were cleansed of the barbarians tomorrow they would not budge out of their leather recliners. When you engage those who have no desire to free our lands keep this Khmer Rouge saying in mind about them, " to keep you is no benefit, to destroy you is no loss"
P.S. The only legally binding treaty between Armenia and so called turkey is the Treaty of Sevres. The other so called treaties between Armenia and various turkic entities are void ab initio.
U.S. President Obama is supporting Turkey the way that Erdoghan's rating improved at the expense of his own. What kind of libertarian policy, what a humane attitude.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
Politicians
Before my birth
Did and still
Do
Possess imperative whispers
Qualified to mystify
The laymen’s
Crew
Teaching selves to sink
Blood in ink
Vanishing
Marchers
Steps
Showing the sky
Still Shines
Bright
Blue
Says,
Sylva-MD-Poetry
Thanks for Yolanda for her contribution.
The English tradition is to give each new book a color. Ours is not a blue book, this is deliberately ignored book by selfish politicians. It should be called the "Crying Book"
Recently I published my poem in Conversation Poetry Magazine of united kingdom,
Slayers Hands, Slain Homeland
the English editor, who is a poet, was never aware about Armenian Genocide.
There are still a number of questions that are not 100% answered when it comes to the Armenian Genocide, especially since turkey has done everything in its power to distort the historical events. Yet, questioning the role of various ethnic or religious groups involvment in the AG shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. If Jews were involved in the AG, this needs to be pointed out, I am tired of seeing the Armenian organizations in the U.S. being afraid to stand up to organizations like AIPAC, of course there have been a few times in recent years when ANCA have stood up to foxman and his cronies.
Search Christopher Jon Bjerknes and his book on the Armenian Genocide. It is avaliable as an e-book on his website.
to:AVO and DINO
WHAT PLANET ARE YOU LIVING ON? MARS!
As you see, Turkey is very important strategic partner of US. US is strongly supporting Turkish-Armenian protocol. In addition Turkey won't ratified protocol without any progress regarding Nagorno-Karabakh problem. Obama will pressure Armenia for a withdrawal from Nagorno-Karabakh.
One form of genocide denial is to blame another group (in this case the Jews) for what happened. Those who believe this form of denial and blame the Jews are being abused, and it looks from the article, will be abused til the end of days, by the perpetrators of the genocide (the Turks, bolsheviks?, and Germans?). Psychologically, they are being hurt and will be hurt, by genocide deniers (but only those who believe the deniers will be hurt).
If a scammer wants to sell you a lemon, a car that doesn't work, a worthless stock, etc., he will lie and a sucker will buy it and get hurt, with no recourse. Same with genocide deniers; they lie and those who bought the lie are stuck with a lemon.
P.T. Barnum said a sucker is born every minute.
The posts are already full of scammers trying to blame the Jews; you can only warn the Armenians: "buyer beware."
Off the subject, wait until Wall Street gets a hold of the next bunch of suckers to buy their worthless stocks in the next generation Wall Street crisis because an uneducated sucker is born every minute. You can't really prevent all the crooks, you can just warn the victims before they become victims. You can only warn the Armenians before they become victims of genocide deniers. Armenians and Jews should be friends, as usual the enemy tries to divide and conquer.
My Jewish family knows about the Armenian genocide and feels the pain and anguish. They escaped the Russian Revolution and stayed in Constantinople for ten years. My father and uncle attended Robert College, established to teach the Christians in Turkey. When my aunt came to the USA, she did not know about the genocide, and only found out when she met and married my Armenian uncle. A Turk, Ali, took care of their farm. I guess they all had the strength to survive, since it was very difficult for the survivors, and there were a few in the family, to keep their mental balance or not commit suicide, the crimes were so horrible. They had the strength and the courage to overcome. I certainly do think more Jews are becoming aware of the Armenian genocide; I don't think they all know about it; and I am sure many will visit the Armenian genocide museum opening in Washington next year. It is sad to see how the perpetrators of the genocide are still hurting you with their denial. I was surprised at how bad the situation in Turkey was. The only friends we had in Turkey left years ago. I think now it is also bad for the secularists today and they are really afraid.
I only recently learned more about it from my family when I asked them. I can understand why they didn't want to discuss it because it was horrible. They were more resilient, which you need to be to overcome a trauma.
I would love to see this film.. This film should be shown to every college and university around the world...
Great job capturing all this and making this possible.
We will pray for your future projects and helping to spread the truth about our people..
Gayane
Since we have no friends in Washington, I hope ANCA will bring Kurdish concerns to the attention of President Obama. Erdogan is very wily, he is playing President Obama like a yo-yo on a string. Hopefully Americans will see through Turkeys deceptive diplomacy and put an end to Turkish occupation of Kurdistan.
Alipasha, if Turkey and USA have strategic alliance and partnership, then..why is it that Turkey is sliding ever more into Islamic fanaticism and outright anti-semetism? Anti-Israel rhetoric is on the rise, even though Israel is arming Turkey to the teeth? Well, once again, typical Turkish diplomacy, "stab your supposed friend on the back, and bite the hand that feeds you." The problem is not Turkey, but its friends who time and again refuse to see the coming Islamic dictatorship in Turkey.
Turkey get out of Kurdistan.
Long live Kurdistan.
Hye, the Turk is pursuing their Second Genocide, now in the 21st century, of the Kurds... labels them as 'terrorists' in order to accomplish this Genocide of the Kurds... right under our noses! Manooshag
Kudos for Mike Capuano; I always loved Ted Kennedy for his staunch stand for the Armenian Genocide and the Armenian people in general, and now I am really glad that this fine man Mr. Capuano will occupy the seat of another great man, Mr. Kennedy.
Dear Stepan, thank you for your good insight and comments about the May 18, 1918 and how fragments of Armenians, along with some survivors of the Armenian Genocide, under the flag of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation - Tashnagtsutyun fought until their last might and their last breath against Turkey who wanted to annihilate them once more. But the enemy couldn't. We must be greatly thankful to ARF and our brave people for it. In the latter part of Armenian history, indeed May 1918 was a second Avarayr, except that in 1918 we undoutedly won the war against our enemy. And you are again right that if it wasn't for the ARF, the Diaspora would not have been what it is today. In 1945 and then again in 1948, it was Tashnagtsutyun who was against sending their population from the Middle East into the harsh and the crude hands of the communists in Armenia; not because they were against for them to go to Armenia, but because they knew that the time wasn't right for the population and they would have suffered enormously and which they did. Unfortunately some Ramgavars didn't listen to the ARF and they pushed the population to repatriate and the ones that did go, were extremely sorry to have gone at that time. It was again Tashnagtsutyun who were against Armenians to leave the Middle East to go to Europe or even to the US. They knew that once the population went and mingled with the Europeans, they would assymilate much faster than if they remained in the Middle East, and again how right they were. But unfortunately wars broke down and governments nationalised businesses and many left the Middle East to go to greener pastures, only to assymilate much much more than if they had to stay back in the Middle East. Yes and yes again, the ARF played a great role for 119 years and indeed they are continuing their patriotic stand of gathering the Armenian nation together under one roof; and making them first to survive and then to thrive!
We all owe a great deal to this one and only organization that thinks and breaths for the people, our wonderful Armenian people!
Ali, People who eat rotten dolma end up like you. Countries where everyone eats rotten dolma end up like turkey.
Stepan, Much as I share the Christian spirit of your message, it is a fallacy to believe that it is hatred what fuels Armenian frustration. It is rather about the inability to heal our wounds for our disappeared country and for our unburied martyrs. We cannot put the cart ahead of the horse. Turkey has not acknowledged its crime, hence the impossibility to move forward. Turkey has not apologized so we can forgive. These people who are coming forward are saying nice words. Nobody is turning them away and nobody is rejecting them. Then again, when your nation has been exterminated and 94 years later a relative of those who perpetrated the massacre come to say a few words of condolence you really can say nothing more than "Thank you" and get back to work. These mild words of sympathy do not amount to turkish state policy, they do not reflect a general change of heart among turks on the Genocide, and that will not happen until the turkish state recognizes the Genocide. You may understand the security implications of having next to Armenia an unrepentant and unpunished genocidal state. turkey has been rewarded by the Genocide. Don't forget that. They don't, as you may see if you read some of the posts by people who appear to be turks. Forgiving wrongdoers on our personal lives may amount to a good deed and may have practical benefits, but forgiving as state policy, by Armenia or any other country, when the offending party is not even acknowledging any wrongdoing --to put it mildly-- can be suicidal: the United States did not forgive Pearl Harbor in 1941, and has not forgotten. It did not forgive 9/11, and it attacked Afghanistan, and it has not forgotten. The fact that we did not and could not respond to the Genocide at the time it occurred does not exempt us from the need for justice. People from the outside might think that Armenian organizations are cranking up anger among Armenians, yet you know how a small minority are actively involved with community organizations but a vast majority of Armenians, individually and without prompting from any organization or party, feel instincitvely the urge to get turkish acknowledgment of the Genocide. That's because the wounds have not healed. When a third generation only Armenian in a remote Venezuelan village still writes a letter urging for acknowledgement of the Genocide --a random example I know-- you realize that something bigger is at play than an organized campaign.
I also beg to disagree with you when it comes to Armenian participation in help and denounciation of other tragedies. If you are a Diasporan Armenian, you may know the huge challenges we face to maintain our culture alive here, our dying language --the very fact that we are now communicating in English attests to that-- and yet again, Armenins have been extremely active in alerting the US Congress, administration and the public generally about Darfur. Check it out for yourself. I do not know of any other single community that has been as actively involved as the Armenian one on Darfur.
Obama should pressure Turkey to withdraw from occupied Cyprus, occupied Kurdistan, occupied Greece and occupied Armenia. PKK is a national liberation movement, like the liberation movement of the USA in late 1700s.
Turkey is a terrorist state, Americans know this, but for now, and because of oil, they are keeping quiet. Once Turkish oil is done with, trust me alibaba, your Turkey will be worth pennies. Don't be arrogant, everything has its place and time. Regretably, it is your time now, but our time is very near indeed.
Turkey is the biggest terrorist state in the world, and Erdogan was a former terrorist(British intelligence knew about Erdogans terrorist past, sitting on the floor in front of Hekmetyar like a good student, and supplying Hekmetyar with money). If alibaba does not remember Erdogans past, he should start investigating Erdogan.
It is starting to make sense. Why then do some Jews and many Jewish organizations take such an active role in Armenian Genocide denial? Why would the truth of another races' genocide be such a threat to them? And, why would the recognition of the Armenian Genocide specifically be a threat to the Jews in Turkey? It that why Hitler said, "who after all remembers the Armenians"? Maybe he knew something we don't?
Selcuk, don't talk in the name of Kurds, OK?? I am not a Turk, and you are not a Kurd. Bringing your dishonest and cryptic "..I wonder what kind of special detoriation, prior to uprising, did the Armenians face compared to Turks and Kurds living in Eastern Anatolia ? Do you mean to say Turks and Kurds were all rich and the Armenians were poor?" will not get you Kurdish sympahties. Well, the only slaves were the Armenians and the Kurds, and you used and abused us, and eventually massacred 2-3 million Armenians. And then turned on us. So, don't you ever try to talk in the name of my Kurdish people. Because what you wrote was a bold faced LIE.
You will never get our symphaties until Ocalan is freed, and Kurdistan is recognized a an independant country, OK? So, using my people as an example, is a stupid and oxymoronic way to make an argument, since we still are suffering under your vicious rule. You can talk about the Armenians, but don't bring my people in to make a totally rubbish argument.
Long live Ocalan, long live FREE Kurdistan.
Were Jews, as a people, responsible for the Armenian genocide? The short answer is, no.
However, the political variant of Judaism, organized Jewry or Zionism, was definitely involved in the genocidal agenda against Armenians of the Ottoman Empire. According to Ralph Schoenman (a holocaust survivor and an ardent anti-Zionist activist) the founding fathers of Israel, Hertzel and Jabotinsky, openly supported the genocide of Armenians in the Ottoman empire with the hopes of gaining political favors in Palestine, then under Ottoman jurisdiction. Let's remember that Jews were in Germany then what they are in the United States today. Let's also remember that Salonika Jews were prominently represented within the Young Turk movement (much like the Jewish representation in the warmongering "neo-conservative" movement here in the US). Even on a societal level, there are many documented cases of Jews working with Turks to persecute Armenians and Greeks - the two main Christian competitors within the Ottoman economy.
In short, while the average Shlomo may have been innocent, organized Jewry was clearly an integral part of the genocide that befell Armenians. Even today we see remnants of the anti-Armenian sentiments of organized Jewry. After Turks and Kurds Jews are perhaps the only other nationality that needs to face up to their crimes against the Armenian nation.
I'm not even going to start discussing Jews and Bolshevism...
Ferhat,
Two things to keep in mind; There can be no peace without justice and the peoples of anatolia inside and outside of so called turkey have to liberate Anatolia themselves. It can never be done by others. So called turkey must be balkanized. turkey must be carved into 12 or 13 states. This is to disapate power. Transparent democracy and rule of law must be forcefully enacted from the bottom up. Whatever national wealth there is, shall be divided amongst all. Not like what happened during the collapse of the Soviet Union. Cultural properties of all ehtnic groups must be returned to their rightful owners even if the building was torn down and another cultural building was put in its place. All ethnic groups must have their old original villages returned to them. All people should be free to come out of hiding and reclaim their rightful ethnicities. Every Anatolian should be completely free and be unthreaten if he/she choses to change their religion. Anatolia shall be a checkerboard federation. Land that is held by one ethnicity can not be sold or given to different ethnicity. Whatever the common standards of individual rights the EU maintains we shall maintain. The kurdish tribes that participated in both the multiple ehtnic genocides of Anatolia and assisting the turks throughout the time of the republic must move to the city of Ankara and live only in the city of Ankara. Let their trouble making be a municiple issue not a transnational headache. Every village and every same ethnicity village cluster and every same ethnicity valley shall have sovereignty. This is possible. we may be David against a Goliath but working together we can bring down the giant, have justice, peace and prosperity equally for all regardless of religion or ethnicity.
Thank you Avo jan as you took the words right out of my mouth and from my very thoughts. Another food for thought to Stepan. How would Jewish people feel if for 94 years the Germans didn't accept the Haulocaust and they lied and denyed the Haulocaust. Then if they payed 5 Million dollars to one US congressman and 3 Million dollars to another US congressman to deny the Haulocaost. How would the children of their survivors feel? That's how we the children of the Armenian Genocide survivors feel. Very much deceived and very much taken advantage; in short taken to the laundromat.
Capuano's record:
Cosponsor of H.Res.106, Armenian Genocide Res. Affirming U.S. Record? YES
Voted for H.Res.106 in the House Foreign Affairs Committee? *Did Nothing*
Cosponsor of H.R.6079, End the Turkish Blockade of Armenia Act? **NO**
Signed the February 2008 letter to Secretary Rice condemning Azerbaijani war rhetoric targeting the Nagorno Karabagh Republic? **NO**
Signed the September 2008 letter to Pres. Bush supporting additional U.S. aid to Armenia and Javakhk to offset the effects of the Georgian conflict?
***NO***
Voted to Zero Out Military Aid to Azerbaijan in Foreign Operations Subcommittee? *Did Nothing*
Signed the March 2007 letter supporting pro-Armenian foreign aid issues? YES - but only after drastically reduced.
Signed the March 2008 letter supporting pro-Armenian foreign aid issues? YES- but only after yet again drastically decreased.
Participated in the March 2007 "End the Cycle of Genocide" Observance? *NO*
Participated in the March 2008 "End the Cycle of Genocide" Observance? *NO*
Participated in the April 2007 Capitol Hill Armenian Genocide Observance? *NO* Participated in the April 2008 Capitol Hill Armenian Genocide Observance? *NO* Participated in the September 2008 Capitol Hill Observance Marking the
20th Anniversary of the NKR movement? *NO*
Cosponsor of H.Res.102, Condemning the Assassination of Hrant Dink? YES
What needs to be done is to exact an extreme political price from the democrats and what they hold dear (health care reform). That means Hary Ried needs to lose his senate seat against Tarkanian. It is about time we elected more Armenians to congress. This generation of Armenian Americans are our future. Although, I would rather remain an independant.
This is the only way to get the Genocide recognized. American born Armenians are only future. These wanabe Armenian presidents are Turkish prostitutes and have no backbone.
May the deniars and the complicit world bodies all go to Jahenem and quickly.
My 2 cents for this forum.
As I said before, I don't hate Turks, nor Kurds not even Azeri Turks. All I am interested in is the Recognition of the Genocide committed against my people by the Ottoman government. And since the current Turkish government is the continuation of the former, it naturally bears the responsibility of their predecessors.
Even Turks know the truth, the Turkish government indirectly accepted that the Genocide did happen, here are two examples:
1. Mustafa Kemal, founder of the Turkish republic, in an interview with the New York times, and while talking about the hangings of some young Turk officials, explicitly and directly acknowledged that the "previous regime", i.e. the Ottoman regime, was directly responsible for the massacres of its Christian subjects. Of course, Kemal was no fool, he knew he was toying with a dangerous subject, and such, he avoided to mention "who" the massacred Christian subject were. The whole world knows that the said subjects were the Armenians.
2. As recently as a decade or so ago, Torgut Ozal, in a stern warning to Armenia, quite callously said that if ..."Armenians do not stop( I believe there was fighting in Artsakh at the time) that it will suffer another lesson like the one in 1915..." I wonder what did he refer to???????????????????????????????????
So, denying the Genocide is a strategic tactic for Turkey, but they will eventually accept the Genocide.
So, I believe that it is ripe time for Turkey to accept its responsibility.
As an Armenian, I know and understand that a lot of Turks died. Remember, most Turks died fighting the allies, some died fighting the Armenian Fedayis, but how can we justify a few hundred Turks that died fighting the Armenian fedayis, with 1.5 million massacred? This number does not include the Hamidian massacres that happened before 1915.
Most Armenians have absolutely no issues with Turks. But I do have an issue with the Turkish government.
Maybe Ali and Selcuk erroneously think that I hate them. I don't hate neither one of these gentlemen. But I owe it to my Armenian people and my grandfather, Sarkis Sinan, whose whole family was dragged out of their homes and slaughtered (alongside thousands of Istanbul Armenians) like cattle on the streets of Istanbul, and see that Justice is served, and that 1.5 million Armenians did not die in vain.
I want nothing from the Turkish government nor the Turkish people, nor do I wish them harm, but only acknowledgement of the Genocide.
I wish "everyone" here joyeous Holidays, and Merry Christmas to all. I want to invite Ali and Selcuk to join us and celebrate Christmas together, seriously.
Many thanks to all my Armenian compatriots for their patience and understanding. I love and respect you all. I might not agree with you on every point, but hey, I still am an Armenian.
Many thanks to all those righteous Turks who are fighting an uphill battle against their government. We owe them our sincere thanks.
Many thanks to our Turkish friends, Ali and Selcuk, for honestly discussing the Genocide from their perspective. You don't have to agree with us, and we don't have to agree with you.. but at least we are "talking" to one another. Take care guys.
Many thanks to Ferhat for bringing the "Kurdish" point of view regarding the Genocide and the Turks. Take care Ferhat.
Many thanks to Armenian Weekly, for allowing "most" of our posts to be seen and read.
I wish all good luck, good health, and let us all pray that Turks and their government, finally accept the Ottoman governmentss complicity in executing and carrying out the Genocide.
One day, may our two peoples live side by side as good friends and equals.
See you in 2010.
Mike Sinan
The Blind is leading another Blind -- Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians are dying. Where is the Lord Almighty?
Mehmet,
This is personal and I hope you read it. I am Armenian and you are, from all I can read above, my enemy and the enemy of my nation, as much as your country is. You have a very distorted notion of Armenian history and your own, and what you did to the Armenian. If your country becomes civilized one day, and I have very strong doubts about it, it will be ashamed about what it has been done under its name and flags to us, the Armenians, in the land you usurped from us and on which your own nation is sitting now.
The contempt with which you write about the extermination of Armenians and about Kurdish complicity in the Genocide makes you a despicable person to my eyes. It also makes you a coward, because you would not dare to say that to me or to any Armenian or to any Armenian grouping face to face. You hide behind a nickname on an Internet forum. So you are the ultimate expression of cowardice, the same cowardice of mob mentality that drove your ancestors to the extermination of my nation. You find that the Van uprising and that the revolutionary activities by some Armenian national parties was sufficient excuse to wipe out an entire nation, women, children, the elderly, priests, everyone. With the views you endorse, you are not only a despicable human being but you could also be liable to possible charges for hate crimes in a number of civilized countries, to none of which you belong: you may realize that with your views you are not only justifying the Armenian Genocide, but also the Holocaust, the Cambodian Genocide by the Khmer Rouge and the Darfur Genocide. In other words, you deserve no respect whatsoever from any decent human being, especially from anyone who believes in God, as you claim to do.
As I am human and also susceptible to base instincts, I have very base feelings for you, and you might consider yourself lucky I or many other Armenians do not know who you are or where you hide. But I will tell you this. I am against killing people like you, because I am against killing people, be it Armenian, Turk or anyone. More specifically, I am all for getting our lands back, because they are ours, but I would never want that at the price of a genocide. To be honest with you, for all the rubbish you have written above (and for which, if you have a bigger brain than I now think you do, you may be appalled and ashamed one day), I would not want you to have the violent feelings and pain cause by loss that I and Armenians endure.
The reason is that I know that even someone as despicable and worthless like you has a mother, a father, you may have brothers and sisters, grandparents still alive and many friends, and I am sure you must love them with all your heart and your love and friendship is returned. And you would suffer endlessly if one day, out of the blue, they were to be uprooted, made to march in the desert, be raped and stabbed or left to die of hunger and thirst. You would cry every day of every year if something like that happened. That's what happened to us collectively. There is a photo on page 291 of the English translation by Peter Balakian and Aris Sevag of "The Armenian Golgotha: A Memoir of the Armenian Genocide, 1915-1918" by Grigoris Balakian of a girl that's lying dead and an Armenian woman, a deportee, is stroking her. This girl is lying on the ground outside Aleppo, my birthplace, and she has a sweet expression in her face. She looks as if she is sleeping and dreaming. It's the most heart-breaking photo I have ever seen, because I instinctively feel the urge to wake her up, to bring her to life, and yet that's impossible, and the reason it breaks my heart is that this little girl, a victim of the Genocide carried out under your name and denied under your name, resembles so much my sister in her childhood. And for all the contempt and the urge to reciprocate your base instincts that I feel, I do not want you or anyone in the world to ever undergo that suffering. The pain is unbearable.
Hi Sinan:
Thank you for your kind and very friendly comment :)
Sure we have differences regarding political issues. I have two Armenian friends, sometimes we go to diner and movies. I go to Armenian restaurants and pastry. Personally, I had no negative experience from Armenians ( I am totally surprise by AVO and DINO's comment). I believe Armenian who from originally Anatolia are more close to Turks then Armenians who live in Yerevan.
Warm regards and marry Christmas.
Ali
Hi Mehmet Fatih:
Please do not respond to AVO!!!! It is getting ugly!!!!
Thanks
Avo and Seervart..... your points are well taken. We are all frustrated by years of deceitby supposed allies, denial byenemies and decades of injustice. Our frustration, nomatter how justified, isnot going to win the struggle.The world will judge and support us based on political currency and
our ability to influence the outcome. Morality has little todo with it as evidenced by the Turks being in a position of strength simply based on their geopolitical position. Iwill never offer an argument that our position the last 94 years is an incredible injustice...perhaps unprecedented.
The passion is to be admiredand it does serve a useful purpose to motivating our new generations, I wonder sometimes where all is going? We all Turkey to admit their crimes, but to me it is even more important that we know where we are going after that. I have siad many times on this
board that I believe that Turkey will admit to its crimes and that they will do it when it is in their interests. We need to help make it in thier interests. That requires careful deliberation and yes...even a relationship... all in the name of justice. They will work their agenda and we must work ours.
Avo, you are correct on the open wounds and the impact of no closure. As a second generation born in America, I vividly remember the day I became aware of the genocide and the feeling of
injustice I have felt since that day. Iam sure both of you have had similar experiences. It is what keeps our hope alive and allows us to have these mild debates(which are really expressions of how much we all care). Keep the faith!!
Having taken a closer look at the excerpt (chapter 9) that you posted from Rifat Bali's book, I find it very unfortunate that he has besmirched Hrant Dink's honor as an independent intellectual by tendentiously associating him with thinkers who were not fit to tie his shoes. Nowhere is Dink quoted as saying anything that suggests he gave any credence to the crude notion that "Jews were behind the genocide of the Armenians". What he is quoted as saying is very nuanced, i. e., that there are many questions having to do with the rivalry between two minorities within the Ottoman Empire, the Jewish and the Armenian. His addressing that issue is stated honestly and in a balanced, measured tone. The only way he might have avoided being placed in such obnoxious company in Bali's book would have been to bite his tongue and stay silent until the end. The imputation of the "Sabbatean conspiracy" mindset to Dink is not justified and reflects the prejudices of the author.
Should anybody wonder why Turkey will never become a full member of the European Union, they need to look no further that the current prime minister with his county bumpkin macho manners and his very primitive acquisition of the Turkish language.
Mike,
You want justice served? You don't want the 1.5 million to have died in vain? (setting aside the genocides of the Pontians, Assyrians and Yezidis and mass murders of the Alevi Zazas) And all you want is recognition? That's not justice. Justice would be for them to come back to life tend their fields and worship in their 6th and 7th century churches, dance Armenian dances, go visit Armenian castles and tend to the grave sites of our ancestors, live happy lives on Armenian land under an Armenian sky. But of course that is not going to happen. So the alternative is, for the turks to leave Armenian villages, give up occupying Armenian castles, get out of Armenian churches used as mosques and return the wealth stolen with interest. That is not going to happen with if all people thought like you. I too dont hate so called turks. (So called because only 9% central asian blood runs thru them. If you seperate Kurds and the non indigenous influx from the balkans out of the equation then whats left is either of Armenian or Greek ancestry. Thats a huge chunk of the population) Heck I have even dated turkish women in germany while I was a soldier. Best dating experience ever. I have never laughed harder in conversations in my life than with turks, turks I know, turks that are strangers on a new jersey turnpike rest stop. But know this, people from Anatolia who fight Armenians against recognition and justice are the direct descendants of the people that murdered our families. Some of them are members of that nepotistic organization called the turkish foreign ministry because of the murder of their diplomats. These people still want to wipe Armenia off the map. As recently as 2006 the turkish army destroyed and carrried away the rubble of an intact domed 6th Armenian church. They pave roads and public bathrooms with 9th century Armenian cross stones. They want our civilization to be completely erased. They have done a good job so far. Eastern turkey is Western Armenia and to have justice it must be returned to the descendants of the indigenous people that were murdered by the turkish government. Your historical foray is flawed but I dont have time to explain, you have left the gate without a horse anyway. And yes one day we will live side by side with non Armenian Anatolians except not with the ones who work hard against Armenian interests. Their fate lies somewhere else. Their should be a handbook to set Americanized Armenians straight about Armenian history and Hye Tahd and the true nature of the barbarians who seek our destruction. So mikey, sit back, continue eating your back-lay-vah this war is not for you.
No offense, but a nations survival is at stake. Maybe you could pray for peace? That might help.
Thanks Ali for the advice, but that alone was the point to show the racism, and the attitude of some of the brainwashed people, here and there.
I know, no one is interested in my pain, since my family as another 12 million Rumeli Muslims sought refrugees in Turkey who had escaped from Christian cruelty in late 19th century. At least 10 times of Armenian lives, we lost during the march from all over Europe to Turkey.
Oh, well, my fathers, too were there for a thousand years.
Our only fault was to be Muslim, and we were called Turks when we were murdered, although many of us were not even Turkish. I now embrace being Turkish, and proud to be one, and thankful to this great people who welcomed my family and shared their food with us in our tough times, although they themselves were suffering, too.
None of those newly formed governments, nor the Russians assigned people to protect us en route from Bulgarian gangs, none of them allocated food and shelter for us on our way, and none of them allowed us to go back after the war was over. The few of us who survivued, lost their names, their kids were taken away and given to Christian families. They lost their culture and identity. These are from my personal memory, and what I know and heard from my grandparents.
I heard worse stories from the people who came from your area. The muslim population in Caucasus, in Revan, and in other parts of the region who were the majority before the WW1 and forced to leave in harsher conditions, worst of all, the winter in the mountains of Caucasus. These 1.5 million people whose belongings were stolen by Armenians were not relocated, they were simply kicked out of their thousand year homes, and murdered on their death march. They had nobody to protect hem en route, and they were chased by the Armenians, as well as the Russian army. They had no place to go, and no one to help but again Turkey who embraced them, as they saved many other people in the past. Those Turkish people who we owe everything, our religion and our lives and culture.
If you don't feel sorry for the people who died because of your grandfathers' greediness; I am sorry, but isn't it my nation's greatness that I still keep sympathy for the Armenians being killed, or died en route? Am I not the right person who would understand your pain, and you should connect rather than insulting me and accusing me for using fake names? God know what would happen if you knew where I was? Well, we know what happened to people who ASALA knew where they were.
May God forgive you
Avetis, when they say semitic, they mean Assyrians and Jews were in the genocide. mostly Assyrians were being killed in Turkey, because there were more Assyrians in Turkey then there were Jews. and we wanted our country and we wanted to be independent but the Turks didnt let us and were fighting us not only because we wanted to be independent but also because we are christians, same goes with Armenians and Greeks.
Sassounian article is Shiny Clear and Blessfull.
Every sentence from his pain... sprung
He represents our 'Sundered Music'
Since genocide date every Armenian sung.
We can't say more than he can say...
Nobel prize is not for every one
But is given to one who knows how to reach players screen.
Were not given to Altounyan* neither to Damadian** who discovered the MRI
Both are saving lives , even the Turkish Lives who slain us.
Because they were not politicians, but both are and will stay, a real 'Genuine Inventors.'
Also not to forget Ghiragossian*** another Armenian nominated for Nobel Prize!
_________________________________________________
*Roger Altounyan(1922-1987):Discovered inhalers used by asthmatics. saving billions of lives. His colleagues say that he deserved to win the Nobel Prize in Medicine. (I’d like to say that if you are asthmatic or you are using any type of inhaler, please remember him.)
**Raymond V. Damadian: Armenian pioneer in magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). His discovery was original work, unfairly judged by the Nobel Committee, ending controversially in him not winning the Nobel Prize.
***Alicia Ghiragossian: Nominated for the Nobel Prize in literature; She writes in three languages.
I think As an Armenians we should share the benefit of many Pharmaceutical companies who benefit from their products and stop blaming Obama who is chained by slayers who can slay him like they slain us.
Ali, Don't be surprised. I'm sure Mike Sinan is a good man and a good Armenian, yet Armenia and Armenians were exterminated by the turkish state and our demands are from the turkish state. It is irrelevant whether we believe all turks are good or bad, or if we can be friends. The turkish state is a natural enemy of the Armenian state, it has consistently been so --the turkish states, be it ottoman or be it modern turkey, do not tolerate the existence of an independent Armenia or the existence of an Armenian state. Since they have never been punished for their stance --unlike Germany, which also had difficulty accepting an independent Poland yet it had its nose broken for good and never bothered again Poland or anyone else after 1945-- the turks assume what they did is right and that Armenians are an ungrateful bunch because they lived relatively unmolested --and I emphasize relatively-- for a couple of centuries, even though as Christians they were second class citizens, by Qoranic laws, which may have been enlightened in the 7th century AD but they were clearly found wanting by the minorities in the ottoman (turkish) empire in the 19th century, after several centuries of oppression. So it's irrelevant whether you celebrate Christmas with an Armenian or go out to dinner with them. Your country is continuing its enmity with Armenia by allying with its turkic kin, azerbaijan, blockading Armenia for our liberation of Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh). Unlike what was clearly stated from the beginning, turkey is now demanding that Armenia withdraws from Artsakh as a condition for signing the disgraceful protocols, which were supposed to be "without preconditions" and yet turkey is now imposing a precondition hostile to Armenia. Now, add to that the Genocide denial and the fact that it was unpunished, and I need no further proof that turkey is an enemy state biding its time against Armenia. I have no reason whatsoever to trust turkey and every reason to distrust it, regardless of the fact that Armenian individuals and turkish individuals can be friends. It's not a matter of friendship. It's a matter of state policy.
What Armenians must do is to get involved in politics and in the US Congress as well as see to it that the Wilson Arbitration Award is known throughout the world. Forget about asking US Presidents to utter the 'G' word, they are mere puppets and they won't do it because it is directed to them by the above powers.
What Armenians must do is to let the whole world know of the legality of and then push for the Wilson Arbitration Award that was granted by President Wilson of the United States of America!
If Mr. Erdogan is appalled at the fruitless talks on NK that have been going on for the past 15 years, what is his attitude towards the fruitless talks going on for the past 35 years on Cyprus? The common denominator is basically Turkey!
It is amazing how selective issues become suddenly very important, such as NK. What happened to the 40.000+ Turkish troops that invaded and are still occupying Cyprus for the past 35 years and no progress on negotiations. Turkey should solve her problems first before lecturing others to do so. Playing the part of a regional superpower is fine but it is only a play and will end soon.
Yes, Avo is an angry, hateful person, and this is indeed horrible, but please understand what has produced such a thing. You must consider the source, however, as awful as it is, his anger is not as horrible as what happened to the Armenian people. That's the bottom line. I don't mean to defend his hurtful words, but perhaps if the Turkish govt. could at least issue an apology to the descendants of those who built and supported the Seljuk and Ottoman empires for many centuries, and who now live in a diaspora, that would be a minimal start to changing the dynamic. Remember, Armenians were the subjects of the empire...they did not run it, they did not control it and they had no army or government of their own. Everything that happened was the result of what happened behind closed doors in Istanbul. To deny that those people were crazy, hateful, greedy thieves would be just plain stupid. Put the blame squarely on those who committed and masterminded these crimes, not on those who have been taught denialist propaganda for 95 years as if it is true history.
This is increditble. If Obama ever pushes for Armenia to back up from Nagorno-Karabakh, Artsakh; Armenians all around the world must demand that Turkey backs off from Cyprus. Turkey had no business in Cyrprus to begin with. However Nagorno-Karabakh, Artsakh was our homeland for thousands of years; along with all of Western Armenia. It's not enough Turkey annihilated most of their Armenian population in Turkey after stealing all our lands and pushed us out by annihilating us, till today they are denying the Armenian Genocide, and denial is the continuation of the Genocide. Then Turkey is strongly pushing Armenia's president to forfeit Turkey's illegal Kars Treaty in the form of the so called Protocols of today and demanding in the Protocols that Armenia accepts their stolen territories from Armenians. Armenians around the globe MUST NOT digest all these injustices any longer. We must never let United States, Turkey or any others to push us out of our historical lands!
The problem is that Turkey has threatened anyone mentioning the Armenian genocide in Turkey, under the penal code, with imprisonment or worse. You may compare this to the code of silence of the mafia, omerta. There was no freedom of speech on this topic. Brave journalists spent thousands of hours in Turkish prisons for speaking about this issue; only now do they allow any speech about it, but there is no law protecting those who speak out. They have blackmailed the world into not mentioning it by threatening to harm the Jews in Turkey; and when the genocide resolution came up, they also rounded up the Armenian workers from Armenia in Turkey for deportation. So they are willing and capable of inflicting harm on anyone in Turkey or outside who mentions the genocide. They also may not be willing to pay reparations or give back land, even if they apologize.
However, Ze'ev Elkin, who comes from the Ukraine and is head of the Armenia-Israel friendship group in Israel said that Russia also used these strong arm, blackmail tricks and that the Jews in Russia stood up to them; so he is not afraid to stand up to Turkey and speak out and pass the genocide resolution in Israel.
Very few Jews were bolsheviks; we were white Russians and fought with Kolchak.
Jewish groups were trying to protect the Jews in Turkey because of the threats Turkey made that it would harm the Jewish community if the resolution was passed. They also threatened to harm the Armenians in Turkey.
The EU said that Turkey cannot get into the EU before it allows freedom of speech on the Armenian genocide. Turkey is allowing a little, but I don't know if they can reach the level the EU wants.
In Chicago, we have trouble putting the gangs into jail too, because of the code of silence, omerta; anyone who speaks out against the gangs can get killed.
That's OK Sevan jan, let the EU accept Turkey amidst them to know the taste of Turkey's belligerent behaviours; like the annihilation of our Armenian race in the form of the Armenian Genocide, then their Code of 301, the protocols to push Armenia to accept their stolen illegal territories from Armenians, Turkey's illegal entry into Cyprus after killing a great deal of Greeks in there, the Kurdish massacres of late, the denial of the Armenian Genocide and Turkey's continuation of the AG; and the list goes on and on. Other nationalities do not understand what we went through and are still going through huge injustices and annihilations by Turkey. And their allies; who stood by and watched while Turkey committed the first Genocide of the 20th century. The countries that stood by and watched the Armenian Genocide committed by Turkey were; Britain, Germany, Russia, USA and France. They all owe us our historical Armenian lands back as well as an apology to have stood still and simply watched while Turkey annihilated more than 1.5 million Armenians and Turkey continues to be in denial and the powerful countries of today mentioned above except France are still on the side of the belligerent Genocidal Turkey.
Karekin, I am sure we both may agree on a number of issues and takes on history, and even if we don't, we may amicably disagree. Then again, you come out in defense of this person, mehmet, who said, and I quote:
On Kurdish complicity on the Genocide (in a Genocide denier's wording):
"So, indeed, it is the weirdest thing that Kurds were forgetting how helpful they were against Armenian terror after Berlin treaty,almost all asirets very useful to maintain the order."
On the Kurds who want self-determination and fight for it:
"So yes, we have learned a lesson from our experience with Armenians. Well, having said that we don’t have any far lands to relocate them, so have to live with them, doing what is necessary now after so many mistakes".
These words anger anyone with a sense of decency. So here is this turk advocating and defending what his government has done, and you come out in his defense, repudiating what I say. You don't know me. You obviously did not read my post in its entirety. You obviously did not read that I am against any Genocide and against killing people. Yes, I believe people like mehmet and ali, who advocate uprooting people, deporting them, massacring them --just read their posts-- while denying that that constitutes Genocide, are despicable and worthless, yet I am aware of their humanity, and that's why I am against what's precisely called crimes against humanity.
The second part, as you may be aware, is that it is not only about Genocide recognition and throwing some candies to appease us. Turkey is an enemy state of Armenia, and it has consistently been so.
I don't know what drives your take on this, and I don't care. You are intermittently Armenian and then you relapse into turcophilia, but that's your problem. I've been four times to Constantinople, Trabizonda, Kars, etc. so I know these people, as much as you can know them in a trip, first hand. I don't really care about turkish individuals, whether they are good or bad: there are all sorts among them, and I have seen them, as among every nation. Our problem is the turkish state, that not only denies the Genocide but also continues its enmity against Armenia with its alliance with azerbaijan against Artsakh: they are now imposing the Armenian withdrawal as a condition for these disgraceful protocols to be signed. These were supposed to be without "preconditions", remember? In other words, it's still an enemy state and an unreliable one.
The second thing is this: our history has really tamed you so you accept matter-of-factly turkish entitlement by fiat and force. You equate demanding our rights and standing up to them with adventurerism. It's just a matter of dignity. Armenia is ready to settle its disputes with turkey pretty much along the cautious lines that you advocate, to no use. That's because turkey is against an independent Armenian state.
The third thing is this, and very noticeable: you only intervene to belittle Armenians like me who call things by their name and in defense of turks who are being given free space in an Armenian forum, something that does not happen in turkish media. As I have said, even though you would otherwise seem a good interlocutor, I have my doubts you are Armenian and even if you are, your turcophilia and your lack of dignity --your disdain for Armenian demands on principle, your undisguised deference to your turkish masters, your condescending attitude towards Armenians: wow, how kind the turks, they let Armenians have stands on the Mısır Çarşısı!-- put you on the other side. If Armenia ever needed someone to defend its interests, you would surely be on the opposite list. You cannot count yourself as an Armenian, or maybe you can: the lowliest types in Constantinople who blush before speaking Armenian in the presence of turks, who have been cowered into fear by their turkish masters and who faint if they hear the 1915 date and who look down in the presence of a turkish cop. I can't blame them: they know better than I do where they live and what kind of criminal state they are dealing with. This one thing is clear: You are not of the mettle of Hrant Dink. That's for sure.
Hye, In addition to Turkey leaderships being, to this day, still in the Ottoman mode of thinking... Turks today are pursuing more Turkish modes - PLOYS... one after another, over and over, dishonestly, distracting other nations in the attempt to appear as if Turks have the mentality/experience of many years, to right the wrongs of the world today!
Turks shall look into their own mirrors - and clean out all the vile treatments of even their own Turkish citizens... ready to 'right' the world... but so many 'wrongs' still in Turkey...
This includes the Second Genocide being perpetrated for these many years against their Kurdish citizens... First Genocide of the Armenians in the 19th/20th centuries (Turkey mentally incapable of accepting their own hisory/leaderships guilt, to this day) and currently, their Second Genocide (since 20th century and into the 21st century) perpetrated against their own Kurdish citizens and wherever else Kurds may be...
And why not? Humanity the world over does nothing to the Genocide perpetrators - howsomever, the victims... the survivors where is the justice for them? Today, perpetrator Turk continues, as if nothing every happened! But yet, spends millions upon millions to deny the Armenian Genocide! Even comes to the United States of America and politically, pulls the wool over our president/his advisors eyes -and more, tells USA what USA shall do... What does the Turk hold over others to gain the convoluted attention it doesn't deserve?
Yet, the USA abides by Turks' morality (any?) sadly, as the bones of the more than 1,500,000 Armenian victims - unburied - lie across their Armenian homeland awaiting humanity's efforts for justice - for all the perpetrators' facing justice - thus to end of the cycle of Genocides.
It seems today's nations - world over, will pursue criminals..l whether murderers, rapists, kidnappers, thieves who steal from homes, child abusers, and so many more crimes until the perpetrator is located, the perpetrator is brought to the local courts, and justice is served.
Somehow, leaderships - the world over, even in the most advanced civilizations of today, have not reached that level of civilization - to come together - to take on ANY nation (whether civilizied OR uncivilized), or whether an 'ally' (of the moment) who have dared to terrorize, slaughter, murder, rape, kidnap women and children, and THEN (Turkey) dares to deny the GENOCIDE OF A NATION, wherever, whenever, WHOMEVER - even so-called 'allies'! Hence, millions of innocents who never have their 'day in court'... never know justice served... by the politics of the moments - MORALITY denied - by so-call civilized leaderships... today, now the 21st century.
Hence Armenian Genocide is not ended, Turkey still in pursuit to crush Armenia, 1915-2009!
Manooshag
This can only be possible, with real peace if Armenians just consider (not even accept) and talk about what they have done to Muslim people together with Russians and when they stop justifying the ASALA or at least some apologise for their mistakes, as some of the Turks do today, although almost all of us feel sorry for what happened to the innocent Armenians.
If you keep using Turkish hatre and AG propaganda as a way to stay united, and embrace those who provoke masses and destroy the peace, than do not forget, Turks fought against the entire Europe during many crusades in the past, and have the ability to overcome another one. Do you really think you can make them accept something by force that the entire Europe couldn't achieve? If you are honest in your recognition claims, start cleaning your own backyard first, then believe me Turks will give you more than what you demand as they have always done. Peace is your only chance.
As for the Kurds, they will keep suffering until they, too accept Turkey as the New Ottoman country, work to make it greater, and struggle in the democratic way and proud to be Turkish citizens as all of us who are ethnically not Turkish have been doing for the last 80 years. What we have achieved today in the West should be a model for the Kurds to do the same in the East. We are ready to do our part, and perhaps do more as most of my tax money are used (many times wasted against terror) for them. If they still want independence, they can go to N.Iraq after they pay all my tax money back.
Reply http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=us-armenians-lament-signing-of-protocols-2009-10-11
Interestingly more Armenian comments than Turkish ones. No censorship, no the infamous 301 for the Turks defending Armenians.
Dino and Avo!
Relax people, OK?
Not only your families suffered death and forced marches in 1915, but mine and Mikes and Karekins.
My grandmother was the ONLY survivor out of 50 plus of her family. So, please refrain from attacking your fellow Armenians.
You can scream and wail and cry and accuse this and that person for betraying their kin, but what you are writing in all the posts that I read above are all childish "rhetoric."
We cannot talk to Turks by fighting with them all the time.
I too, want justice for our people who were massacred and driven to the deserts to die. I too want the recognition of the Genocide, but spewing childish demands, and calling fellow Armenians "names" will certainly won't help "your" cause. We have to think as one. No more, "I want this land, and I want that land." I am more humanist than the Turks. I don't want Turks to leave the lands they are living on today, I want them to stay living there. Besides, we don't have the "manpower" to populate these lands. So, land compensation is out the door for me. As for the recognition of the Genocide, yes I definitely would like to see it recognized by the Turkish government. We cannot fight Turks and then turn around and ask them to recognize the Genocide. Let us talk to them, and not fight them. I knew a friend of mine in college, a Turk, who steadfastly refused that the Genocide happened. Well, I "talked to him, respected his ideas, agreed with some, and respectfully disagreed with others, but in the end after he was shown all the documents and books and thousands of pictures and videos shot at the time, he finally came to accept the Genocide."
Now, in respect to Ali and Selcuk, I believe that they really want to know the truth, otherwise they will not waste their time frequenting and reading our posts here. I also believe that if we respectfully introduce them to the Genocide and show them all the proof, they will come to know the truth. But we cannot scream "bloody murder" and then turn around and ask them to recognize the Genocide. You simply are antagonizing some Turks who I believe "honestly want to see and recognize the truth," but my friend Avo and Dino are on a full assault on anyone here, Armenian or Turk, who disagrees with them.
The only two people, sane people here who are talking with their brains instead of their hearts are Karekin and Mike Sinan. I salute them both, for putting emotions aside, and are genuinely trying to bring the Genocide on to the table for discussion.
There were 3 unofficial polls conducted in Armenia starting in 1992 and the last one ending in 2008. And here is the painful surprise: Between 77%-92% are planning to leave the country if they get/have the means. This is extremely dangerous for the survival of Armenia, young kids running away, and the older folk are left behind. We should put ALL our efforts to make the Genocide recognition our priority, and not the return of ancestral lands. Come on people, let us mature and see the reality. If I am running from Armenia, why should I want to live in our ancestral lands, when not one single Armenian is left?
To conclude. Remember cooler heads will survive in the end. Let us welcome all young Turks to this and other Armenian forums. Ali and Selcuk did not in any way use derogatory or bad language here, and we need to continue talking to them. They are here, it means that they are looking for the truth, but please let us talk to them, instead of asking them things that they cannot deliver. Remember, they are not the Turkish government, but individual Turks who I believe, are genuinely interested in the Genocide.
I wish all a very Merry Christmas, and a safer Happy New Year. Invite your Turkish friends to your homes for the holidays, let us invite them to our churches, let us "talk" to them.
I don't know when the Islamic "Eid" is/was, so, If I did not miss their holiday, I wish my Turkish friends a happy "Eid."
Excellent. Thanks for the link.
It is apparent that Turkey is playing "blame the Jews" card to stir antisemitism on the part of Armenians. This of course will only help in employing Jewish lobby for its denial campaign. Turkey is counting on its many faces both appearing as a the only friend of Israel in the region, and fighter for the rights of Palestinians. However, Turkish society has deep rooted anit-Americanism, antisemitism and hate towards Armenians, which needs to be pointed out as their true face.
Hey AVETIS:
The number of unattributed statements and words in "quotes" in Ralph Schoenman's book are a complete joke; it's a book of opinions, not history. There are practically more footnotes in the above article.
No wonder he's giving it away.
But the Armenian Genocide was a travesty and especially Jews (and other historically persecuted groups) should be much more active and vocal in publicizing the Armenian Genocide, rather than suppressing such efforts. No one has a monopoly on suffering.
Henry Amaduni, I can't make sense of what you have written. Happy Eid to you.
BREAKING NEWS for all of you: Erdogan has just said that the Armenian Genocide is a "lie". So much for normalization of Armenian-turkish relations.
I agree with Mr. Jololian: Capuano is totally untrustworthy when it comes to Armenian issues. Capuano's record - if you had read Mr. Jololian's excellent post a week ago regarding Capuano's cavelier treatment of the Armenian genocide - is clear: at root, he is no friend of Armenians.
He further said that the turkish parliament may reject the protocols. Progress between Armenia and Azerbaijan is needed first. These protocols were "without preconditions''. Remember? Oh well, that was two months ago. I guess we should begin emptying Karabagh of Armenians? Friendship with turkey comes first, I say. No? I would like to hear ideas. Maybe these can discussed over the joint Christmas and Eid meals some of you will have. Bon apetit.
You are the naive one for believing that government is altruistic and will take care of the people. And you have zero understanding of natural rights and negative rights, or do not respect them. Coercion is not the way to go. I never said I am for Armenia's economic system as it stands. It is state capitalism, as Ive stated many times, and I prefer laissez-faire capitalism. That is a better and fairer system then the pseudo-capitalist country we have now, and better than any big government utopia that you would wish Armenia to be become.
OK, I do agree with you that what Erdogan is doing is playing political mind games, but that does not make us stop work, attack ordinary Turks, and then ask them to return our lands.
Our job is to continue our work bringing the Genocide to as many Turks as possible. I myself don't give a rats a - - to what Erdogan does. I did not care about the protocols anyways, because it was doomed the day it was commenced. So, if you think that you are a "political savvy" smart alec, I'm sorry to inform to you that not only you're wrong, but your posts here are utterly childish and full of naive and very elementary mumbo jumbo, the kind that must have been before 1915, and not today. Today politics is done behind closed doors.
Example: Aliyev, has been threatening war non stop, we know that without the explicit "a OK" from the USA and Russia, he won't fire one bullet, his rhetoric is for the Azeri population, and not for us Armenians. So, if you see Azerbaizan attack Armenia, then you know right away that either the USA or Russia has given their OK. The moral of the story: Your childish outbursts are intended for the Armenians or the Turks? If you honestly think that in 1-5 days you will have Turkey to recognize the Genocide and they return 100KM squared miles of land to us, then you are dreaming my friend. And how would you protect a 100KM square land? Remember Monte Melkonian, during the Artsakh liberation, time and again he "mildly complained" that he lacks enough Armenian fighters, and that he could have occupied more land, had he the manpower. Let us assume that Turkey relinquishes these lands, how many Armenians would we need to watch the borders? We don't have enough manpower right at this very moment to protect the small land we have. So, STOP your nonsense, and start working for the recognition of the Genocide, making more Turks angry and isolated, does not do our cause any good.
You are making more enemy Turks, they won't even read, let alone answer your way too childish outbursts. I am, however, surprised that Armenian Weekly is allowing your naive and childish outbursts to continue.
After too many childish and naive outbursts, even Ali and Selcuk will stop answering to your excruciatingly childish posts.
And regarding their holiday, the Islamic Holidays, I see absolutely nothing wrong wishing them their Holiday, so stop your sarcastic remarks child. Almost all your posts are full of hatred towards your fellow Armenians, you branded them as Turks, or Turkish sympathizers. Who are you and what right do you have to call other Armenians who do not agree with your modus operandi? If you are so smart and knowledgeable and patriotic, why don't you volunteer to serve in the Armenian army?
Enough Already, because Karekin and Mike were kind people, that does not give you the right to attack people, let alone myself.
Thank you for enlightening me, Henry Amadouni. Happy Eid.
How come nobody mentions The Inner Folds of Turkish Revolution by Mevlan Zadeh Rifat?
Or for that matter what T.E. Lawrence told his biographer concerning the composition of the Young Turks?
Dear Mihran, I like your analogy that you rightfully expressed to Mike about Warriors and shopkeepers. It makes good sense and I thought it fitting!
I have written two cogent posts on this site. Nothing insulting. I love the rhetorical backhanded insults thrown at me. It seems I have struck a nerve with the pro protocols-AAA crowd. Squishy Armenians or better yet false flag turkish lobby bloggers are irrelevant. The Armenian nation does not need Armenians who give so called facts about why nationalist desires are not possible. The turks are deeply afraid of our irredentist demands. They conduct themselves on these issues as if they would lose those lands tomorrow. Every idea from the naysayers are lies, half truths and turkish inspired sophistry. Turkey and Islam are a threat to the survival of not only Armenia but of Western Civilization as well. http://www.jihadwatch.org/
P.S. Not only are there too many Armenians living in Armenia, most are the wrong kind of Armenians. The carrying capacity of the de facto area of the Armenian Republic is only 900,000 which is more in line with the actual population numbers in turkish occupied Armenia.
OK, once again Armenian Weekly removed my last post.
You guys cannot win over the Turkish public by posting totally irrelevant and bombastic messages.
Let me make one point clear: If you think that by attacking fellow Armenians by calling them Turks, or defeatist, then I got news for you: If it was not for the Armenians who reached out to the Turks and showed them the truth about the Genocide, we would not have had an Orhan Pamuk or Dr. Akcam supporting Armenians and talking for us.
You continue deviating from our real goal, which is the recognition of the Genocide, and going into
"land reparations," then you already lost rounds one, two and three.
I for one, don't care much about our historical lands. And I doubt that any of you here posting extremely personal messages and attacking others, care about these lands. Most of you probably live in the USA.
All I care is the recognition of the Genocide, nothing more and nothing less.
If we cannot reach out to the Turks, then the whole idea of having a forum sounds ridiculous. What good is it to attack Turks and Turkey, and all the time we are posting messages for ourselves. What good is it to scream when there are no Turks listening to us? What good is it if not one single Turk reads our posts? Then we have Avos, Sirvarts and Dinos hauling sarcasm to fellow Armenians, and Oh yeah, that helps our cause, right? Typical divisive Armenian character.
Avo and Dino, it seems that you own this forum. Since your attacks on fellow Armenians is tolerated, and when we respond, Armenian Weekly removes our response. So, I wish you all luck, now the whole forum is yours, enjoy bashing each others head...I am on my way to Hawaii for Xmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
I think this would be a great time to explain to everybody why Mr. Rustamyan was toasting champagne with Serzh Sarkisian days before the March 1 massacre. And when is Vahan Hovhanissian going to release the results of an investigation he lead to expose criminal, mafia, and oligarchic tendencies of the Armenian government? How long will the people of Armenia have to wait to find out just exactly how much of their taxes and their foreign aid is being spent on Serzh Sarkisian's casino binges?
TO C.K. Garabed
Probably because it doesn't seem to exist beyond the ravings of Jack Manuelian. Anyone read it?
P.S. Just cause it's in a book (much less the Internet), doesn't make it true...
It is absolutely irrelevant which national or religious roots people in government (CUP) belonged to. this is truly an exercise in futility. The responsibility of the Genocide falls on the shoulders of the government of the State, the Ottoman Empire. Today's Turks might fall for shifting the blame to others, which by the way, might explain Prime Minister Erdogan's daily utterance that it is apparently impossible for Muslims to commit genocide. And that it is impossible to blame his (Islamist) ancestors of this heinous crime. Our legal fight is with a legal State, and not with stateless and unaccountable entities.
This is dangerous because would be playing in Turk's hands if we remove the responsibility of this crime from the hand of the Turk, the perpetrator, and put it into the hands of some invisible, hidden, conspiratorial party that has no power to redress and no physical existence for us to accuse. We would end up chasing political UFOs, Unidentified Fictitious Organizations.
It is important to elucidate the fatal logical flaws of those who wise to deny real justice to the Armenian people whether they be tukrish or Armenian or whatever. Some quislings wish by force of flawed argument that we only pursue genocide recognition. Recognition, restitution, reparations and restoration all go hand in hand. This why the so called turks fight tooth and nail against recognition because all the other three R's come along for the ride. We have many allies within Anatolia and outside Anatolia of different ethnicities and faiths. Everyone has suffered at the hands of sunni turkish plurality. We have all suffered at the hands of certain sunni kurdish tribes who worked in 1908, 1915,1925, 1930 and 1938 against Armenian, kurdish and Alevi Zaza interests and continue to work for their sunni turkish masters.There are good people of Anatolian ancestry in turkey and outside, no doubt about it. Of hand I would say ( and having conversations in turkish with turks without them knowing I was Armenian) that 1/3 of turks would like to go to watertown or glendale and butcher as many Armenian women and children as possible, 1/3 are clueless as to what an Armenian is ( lately this has been changing due to all the news) and the last 1/3 are completely in our corner. And honestly, the last third would probably make better neighbors than some quislings amongst our population. The ones who are here are not here to understand but to monitor and squash anyone who writes about real justice for the Armenian people. They are scared of what may come down the pike. They know all to well that the Treaty of Sevres is the only legitimate binding treaty between Armenia and turkey. All other treaties between Armenia and turkey are void ab initio. They know very well when the court of public opinion is completely on our side, we will then pursue Hye Tahd in the international court of justice on various fronts. By the end of the day they will be worse off than south africa during apartheid and north korea put together. Financial markets will be completely closed off to them and any funds they have in foreign banks will be confiscated and trade between turkey and the world would cease until they follow thru with the turn over of lands they illegally occupy in eastern turkey, pay for the damages to all cultural treasures they have destroyed, pay for all development costs for Armenians to return to Western Armenia and pay for their citizens to settle in central anatolia. It will happen if you want it. For those who think it is crazy go on back to stuffing your faces with bak-lay-vah, and dont try to diminish the aspirations of Hye Tahd. Afterall, wasn't the soviet union invincible and Armenia would never in our lifetime be independent? How soon we forget. The impossible is possible. Never forget that.
It was after all Turkey's responsibility that they let some other entities to control their country and they played in their hands. They let themselves being controlled and they too committed a heinous crime. It is after all Turkey's responsibility.
people i think should have more respect and dignity for passing holy places ,and it shows what kind of quality we deal with ,its good that Armenians let jews pass freely all this time to go to their cites without any problem ,but if they choose to continue this way ,it will increase issues and problems in the future.The Israeli government is responsible for stopping these ugly acts .
if u don't know how to walk in the street and pass with a respect ,means u have a problem and thats how they behave in the their houses .
Mr president pleasezzzzz dont sign this health care bill if there is no public option it has to be in there /// To many traders in the senate our premiums are going up now all americans would love to have the same coverage as those in the senate there has to be a public option in this bill dont give in pleasezzzz if the demacrats screw up there history i wont vote for none of them
Avo, as far as I know, the proper greeting is Mubarek Bayramin Olsun....and you just missed it. It seems that Mr. Amaduni is yet another Armenian who chooses intelligence over hate, reason over bluster and reality over fantasy. Abrees! While I agree that Erdogan's statement is completely out of line and ridiculous, it also means that Armenians cannot stop their quest, but should not descend into the abyss of hate and negativity. There has been and is today, way too much of that in the world, and it has produced nothing of value. Time to stop.
Akbulut should NOT feel compelled to give his opinion on what happens in Switzerland or justify it to anyone especially turkish hooligans threatening him and his Church. That's his business and no one elses. Why does Akbulut feel inclicned to explain his opinion on Swiss policies? Does he really think this will deter turkish fundamentalists from harming him or his Church? The mere notion is absurd.
"We do not approve of the minaret ban. Switzerland should let them construct minarets in mosques."
THE SOURCE OF AKBULUT'S FRUSTRATION SHOULD BE THE THREAT NOT HIS OPINION ON THE MINARET BAN IN SWITZERLAND.
We all know the intentions of those three fundamentalist turkish zealots. For Akbulut to say the above is exactly what those 3 zealots wanted him to say in deference. These are classic turkish strategies of submission that have been practiced and perfected for centuries. They are meant to make minority groups "feel lucky" for the little they have while at the same time making their daily life miserable.
Avo, it's not that I'm accepting 'Turkish entitlement', it's the reality that most of our ancestors lived with and under Turkish rule for almost a thousand years, and most of that was actually quite good for Armenians. As rulers, the Turks needed architects, stonemasons, farmers, blacksmiths, etc, etc. to make their empire function. Of course, of necessity, all of our ancestors spoke Turkish and lived better lives than many people on the planet during those years. They helped the empire and the empire helped them in return. At the very least, they were not being attacked by outsiders and had a relatively secure environment to live in, and were being protected by the forces of the empire. This continued for a very long time and nothing you say will change that fact. If you want to discuss the genocide issue, I feel you must really focus on those who masterminded it and carried it out, and ask the hardest question, which is 'why'? And then, try to understand it. Don't let unreasonable hatred get in the way of intelligence, please. If you do, you are no better than those who committed the genocide. As a side note, do you know that a recent DNA study revealed that 87% of today's Turks (in Turkey) share identical DNA with Armenians? So, perhaps this is more of a 'family' feud than we even realize?
Silly proposition. When has "do the right thing" mattered in politics?
Obama has never kept any of his promises! so get used to it.
This is a great lesson for Armenians that they shouldn't support anyone who has no record of any accomplishments and we should not base our endorsement on empty promises!
there is even a blog dedicated to his broken promises: www.obamasgaffes.blogspot.com
I saw Mr. Erdogan interview on Charlie Rose. Mr. Rose asked what was his (Erdogan) stand on Ahmadinjad Holocaust Denial. When Erdogan answered that question, turkish genocide denial policy was written all over his face. There was no question bout any armenian issue until at the last minute of the interview when Erdogan himself told Charlie Rose "I will take this opportunity being on tv" and recited the same story about the turkish archives being open and his obvious turkish official stance about the Armenian Genocide never happened. The donkey is showing his tail nothing more and everyone who understands a little history and politics can see this. The Armenians are in a never ending saga of pursuit of Justice and genocide recognition as longest the Turkish governments and their deep state act as donkeys. Unfortunately, President Obama is telling the truth about the Americans and their policy by underlining the importance of Turkey being a strategic partner but President Obama is lying to the world with his silence and denial of the Armenian Genocide.
Thank you, I appreciate this message my dear friend Karekin, this should be the way to win the hearts of Turks, believe me recognition or an apology is closer to you than you think with such an approach. Armenia will become a better place with such an attitude, so will Turkey.
It may not be of the genocide (since it means hatre and racisim towards Armenians, which I don't believe was the intention of anybody in the Ottoman Empire, otherwise it would be deportation back to Russia like Stalin, or Hitler's gas chambers, instead of relocating them in other parts of the empire. Also consider many other subjects, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, of the empire faced relocation throughout Ottoman history), but surely an apology for the pain caused, or for n0t being able to provide enough food and shelter and government's responsibility in not being able to protect the lives of all innocent Armenians who died through massacres and starvation; a sincere apology for not being able to punish the people who attacked the convoys, or even for mistreatment for the Armenians left in Turkey. This can only be possible if Turks feel secure about their history, at least some of them understand the rational of the relocation, the way Turks felt about the Armenians who were supporting the enemy Russia, and only again some of you appreciate of what they have done correctly for ages but not by insulting them, or accusing them with racism. This is what all Turks proud of, not being racist, and being great managers of other people.
DNA commonality should still be the last to talk about whereas the culture and history and years of friendship, old good memories can be the starting point. We have to remember good old days, and use those good memeories to decrease our pain of the bad days.
(Yalanci) "Dolma" diplomacy can be more effective then you might think, and we can work for a common future, and perhaps Armenia becomes a rich enough place that some of you in diaspora may, one day want to return to your homeland instead of living in third countries. Perhaps, some of you may even want to live in Turkey, and sure enough Muslims may want to move to Revan, and other places that they were deported from. (I am on the other hand will always be a muhacir, but at least could have seen my family's town in Macedonia. Thanks to the peace between Turkey and Macedonia today.)
Not only we open the borders, but we actually may open them for visa free travel, and even one day we may want to form a EU like big union in the region regardless of the different religions we believe, Turkey may even want to give up Eu membership and instead form an alliance ( a cultural alliance and union) with Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan as equal friends.
Peace at home, peace in our neighbours. We need each other, and be honest about our past, all sides, all parties, all people should think about their faults, and learn from their mistakes.
Thank you again,
Thank you, Karekin. Sorry I missed it. Mubarek Bayramin Olsun. Accept my belated greetings.
Enough said.
FYI: Gostan Zarian didn't portray the British ships which couldn't climb Mt. Ararat. His novel deals with two completely different ships.
Very good comment Harry: “feel lucky” for the little they have while at the same time making their daily life miserable.
Today's Turkey is partially Greece, partially Armenia, and partially Assyria. It is natural that today's Turkey Government is highly attentive toward these minorities inside Turkey. Assyrians as well as Kurds do not have any state support from outside (they do not have independent statehood), so Turkish bribers, terrorists, enicheris and militiamen are free to violate Assyrians' and Kurds' civil and religious right, whereas they are afraid of Armenians, Greeks, Persians, and Arabs who are able to defend their citizens in the so-called Republic of Turkey. This article is one illustration of that double-standard situation of violation.
Why has the Armenian Apostolic Church in Diyarbekir, for which my paternal great-grandfather paid a large sum to restore in the 1880's, been allowed to remain in ruins? Why is the Chaldean Catholic Church in Diyarbekir of my mother's family also a ruin? Turks are upset that Switzerland will not allow minarets. This can not compare with Turkish laws that have not allowed churches to undergo any repairs, so that they will become ruins over time.
This guy's job is to insult the Turkish people by making up false stories. I guess it is the only way to consolation. Go on living in a dream world, Mr. Astarci. For the readers : don't believe a word he says if you want to stay in the real world.
I would like to thank our Mr. Aram Hamparian of ANCA and his associates for their unstaunching efforts and good works in all aspects of the "Hay Tahd" the Armenian Cause in working alongside and initiating to other members in the US Congress. I would especially thank also to Chairwoman Lowey, Mr. Adam Schiff, Mr. Mark Kirk, Mr. Steve Rothman, Mr. Jesse Jackson, Mr. Steve Israel and Mr. Frank Lobiondo for standing with Armenia and Armenians. Thank you all and May God Bless you!
BTW; Dear Armenian Weekly Editor and staff; is it possible if you could let us know how to e-mail these fine people in the US Congress to be able to personally thank them? It will be greatly appreciated and I wish other Armenian patriots will follow me. Thank you in advance.
Seervart
Shad shnorhagal em, Avo-jan. Terevus, anzial ankam, perahnut kotze yev kulughut patz, keech muh. Polornal unger enk, hos. Bedk eh.
Dear Mr. Astarjian; these are all very nice and I am sure they are all very truthful stories; but unfortunately it wasn't just the Turk's who annihilated us; but other entities headed by Talaat Pasha and their accomplices, the German generals who were also guiding and consulting with Talaat, Enver and Gemal. The fact that those outside entities took complete control of Turkey and made them to and directed them to do their dirty job for them is really a very sad fact. It is also sad for the Turkish people, but unfortunately they weren't able to control their country and their land and both the Turks and the Kurds were in the act together against the most civilized nation in the world; "The Armenians" and their horrible faith. However Turkey is the one who is responsible for their heinous act.
I will tell you another story myself and this from my own father who was a survivor of the Armenian Genocide in 1915. His father such was the thing to do at those times, has gone to Fresno for seven years along with his cousin. His own mother was constantly urging him to come home as he had his beautiful wife, my grandmother, my own father and the rest of his family in the homeland that were missing him something terrible. Letter after letter from his own mother, then he finally came home just about six or eight months before June of 1915; on the way going back to Palu, my grandfather bought one or two rifles from Germany and when he came home he buried it in their backyard, which is probably still in there if one goes back to Palu, Turkey. Now his grandfather in their town in Palou was a very known and a respected man. Someday in June of 1915, the mayor's office asked him to go and see him with both his sons because he had something of importance to convey it to him. My grandfather at the time was only 36 years old. Only a few hours later the gendarmes brought three corpses and threw them in-front of their house so that the women will bury them. It was my great grandfather who was 80 years old, my grandfather and my granduncle. The women of the house right after that went to hide in their Kurdish servant's house, until of course a little while later a "herovardag" a decree was announced by the government that if any Turk or a Kurd happen to hide Armenians in their homes, they will set their homes on fire.
This is only a part of my family's story from the Armenian Genocide of 1915. As sad and as unfortunate as it was.
Please, Can you give my email to Mr. Sassounian or his secretary,
Thanks
Mehmet, thank you for all good wishes. Just a point of clarification: the extermination of an entire nation is called Genocide. That's what Turkey did to Armenia. You may like it or not, but that's how it is called. Second, the Genocide is perhaps the biggest issue of contention between Armenians and Turks but not the only one. Turkey is an enemy country for Armenia. It imposed a blockade on Armenia for the liberation of Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh), a war between the Artsakh Armenians and the Azeris. Armenia did nothing to Turkey for it to impose that blockade. Hence, the problem is not Armenia, it's your own country. Further, it imposed the blockade for something completely unrelated to Armenian demands on the Genocide or on whether Diasporan Armenians are nice or not to Turks. That has nothing to do with that. It's not a historical problem. It's modern Turkey pursuing enemy policies towards modern Armenia. And while you may have been well-intentioned in what you wrote, above: "This is what all Turks proud of, not being racist, and being great managers of other people", you may realize that most Armenians will beg to disagree. The Genocide was not an exception: it was the culmination of steady anti-Armenian policies. Well before Ittihad Armenians were called giavour and treated as such. And when you say "great managers of other people", remember three things: 1. the Genocide of 1915; 2. This "other people" you are referring to were in their own land, millenia before the first turkic hordes arrived there; 3. Armenians, nor any other nation, need other people to "manage" them, any more than your own people would not like that one bit.
Enough said. Now we know what thinks each of us in this forum and I really see no need for further comments.
Hye,
Selcuk, sadly it is you who is lacking in truths... your leadership has lied to you and your countrymen of your Turkish history - lied so much that they are today unable to face these truths - even to themselves... Turkey is today a nation in great difficulties. Turkey is is decayed and decaying within
all its leaderships. Turkey is today using many ploys, over and over to distract the world from noticing the sad state of affairs of the Turkish leaders, Turkish nation and Turkish citizens. Turkey, as they continue to appear 'worldly' - today, all of a sudden - after hundreds of years of the Ottoman policies - but sadly - today - still continues in the Ottoman mode. Turkey is desparately pursuing many avenues - many venues, to appear to 'glitter' in so many ways before the nations of the world . But yet, only the truths shall set your nation and your citizens freed from their continued pursuit of the Ottomans' modes, Ottoman decadence.
May it be soon, for your own sake. May it be soon for those 1,500,000 Armenians slaughtered, and more, whose bones lie - unburied - lying in waiting on the soils of their own Armenian homeland. And, only when the Turkish leaderships admit to their guilt for the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation, so too, shall these bones that linger in Turkey - all these nearly 100 years - yet unburied - remain in watch of the unashamed, unrepentent Turks. For only when justice is served - and only then, shall these bones perish, in peace. Too this is a covenant these bones passed on to their survivors, and all those who follow, and to all humanity. This then shall be the beginnings of the end of the cycle of Genocides... by all humanity. Manooshag
Manooshag
How about Obama forfeiting his Nobel BS Prize until he stops the US sponsored wars around the world?
But then again, Obama, like every other US president in office since the first world war, is nothing but a spokesmen for the financial/political elite that runs this global empire.
If anything is to be blamed, it's the system.
Enough is enough. What is it with muslims and their religion? They get up and move to the most open Western cultures, and then they want to impose their way of life, their ideals, their back-warded principles on everyone else. If they were so happy with that oppressive religion & culture then they should not migrate to these Western countries. We left the Middle East to get away from it all and now they are following us? Go figure!
Hye, and following Seervart's 'thanks'... I, too, would like to thank the exemplary leadership of the Armenian Weekly for all the years of service to our Armenian Diaspora... in Armenian and in English
(hopefully our Weekly is shared with our brethern in Armenia and world-wide).
Today our Weekly, is built upon the shoulders of past leaderships whose honesty and dedication has been dedicated to Armenians.
Today, editors and dedicated staff members serve us with outstanding distinction and dedication.
May God be with you all in all your endeavors... Manooshag
P. S. My donation to the Armenian Weekly will be in the mail - shortly. M
The anti-Semitic, sexist, and generally hateful charge has been engineered by Ergun Kirlikovali against Armenians for years. He unjustly accuses Armenians who he feels are successfully promoting the Armenian Cause. He works behind the schenes, often impersonating Jewish-Americans to spew anti-Armenian propaganda and to create antagonisms. He works diligently to drag Armenians through the mud and to neutralize them. This man's modus operandi should be exposed in the media.
Hye, today I see the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to president of the United States of America, Obama,
shall instead shall be the Nobel PIECE Prize... Tell truths, but only in Pieces... politically. For he is wholly unable to face truths morally!
As the leader of the most powerful nation the world has known to date he is bound, politically, and yet, shamelessly, to a Turkey whose Genocides of millions of innocents - unrequited, unashamed...
#1 - Armenian Genocide - still pursued from 1915-2009
Obama unable to lead the world, all civilized humanity, to end the cycle of Genocides...
#2 - Genocide of the Kurds, labelled as 'terrorists' by Turks (reality: they are freedom fighters
who seek freedom from tyranny of the Turk) since the 20th century and now into the 21st century.
Yet, one day, a leader from the 'free world' shall have the courage, the moral strengths to bring together all civilized humanity - and go down in history books - as the leader who was able to bring
all nations of conscience - to a table, to end the slaughtering, and more of millions and millions of men, women, children born/unborn... innocents 'elminated' by despots - who themselves shall have
to be 'eliminated'... and any denials shall be the 'denied'... not the murders denied. Manooshag
Hye,
1 - Switzerland bans mosque minarets in Switzerland.
2 - "3 unidentified persons" - in Diarbakir - bravely - threatens Priest Yusuf Akbulut of Assyrian/Syriac Church of Virgin Mary in Diarbakir "to demolish bell tower by next Friday"...
Well, "3 unidentified persons",
these "brave" persons act on behalf of their Ottoman leadership mode.
Possibly youngsters, again, who have been ingrained in the Turkish educational system to consider the Christians as those to be hated, as infidels, those to be 'eliminated'...
Well, "3 unidentified persons,"
as in the policy of their own nation - bravely - feel they can threaten a church leader - to frighten the church man - or else! As was done to Hrant Dink...
Well, "3 unidentified persons"
sadly, when there is a Christian edifice standing the Ottoman mode has been
to use them as stables, and worse... or to just allow these ancient churches of the ancient Christian religious culture to fall to ruins - thus 'eliminating' still again, traces of the historic peoples who preceded the Turks - hordes from the Asian mountains - on the Armenians homeland. Still relentlessly - pursuing the Turkish Genocides into 2009 - into the 21st century.
Also, it appears it is fine for the Ottoman Muslim mosques to exist in all the other nations of the world - howsomever, the Muslim evidently, cannot tolerate another religion in a Turkey. Such is the mentality of the Ottoman turk - still the Ottoman thinking - still in the Genocide mode. 1915-2009.
Manooshag
Ներողութիւ՞ն:
Hye, Mr. Harris,
Bad enough that the Jews of Israel cannot see that there was an Armenian Genocide - but to have to tolerate the vulgar 'spitting' - which is not a new 'undertaking' - been going on for many, many years.
Manooshag
Actually, what is wrong with Christianity that fills your heart with so much hate toward another religion? and excuse me, how many mosque did you say are left in Armenia?
Well, yes this is middle east; religion is just a motive to mask the racism:
http://www.zaman.com.tr/multimedya.do?tur=foto&aktifgaleri=7367
Well, it was about time Avo apologized. I hope you are that hard headed on the battlefield, we need people like you on the frontlines.
Selim, you Turks are fanatical people. You killed Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Albanians and then you started killing us Kurds.
YOU TURKS, demolished about 2300 Armenian churches, monasteries and crosses. How dare you challenge Armenia and Armenians about the number of mosques there? Don't you people have any shame? The 3 idiots who threatened the venerable priest were TURKS. The reason this happeened in Diyarbekir was to shame us Kurds and blame the incident on Kurds, plain and simple. Why did not this happen in Turkish populated areas? Turks think they are smart, it happened in an overwhelmingly Kurdish city, so Chistians will blame "fanatical Kurds." Well, Selim, your governments stupid and idiotic scheme failed. Non of these 3 idiots were Kurds. They were, like yourself, Turkish. These Christians were living amongst us Kurds for years, and now we are turning on them? Do you think we are like you?
And, before I forget, when are you leaving Turkish occupied Kurdistan and release our leader Ocalan?
Murderers and back stabbers.
Long live Kurdistan
Hello Armenians.
As a Turk, I believe with all my heart that the Genocide happened. I know my Turkish friends here might be offended, but the truth is out there for all to see.
But, please refrain from attacking common Turkish people, remember if you antagonize Turks, then they will never accept the Genocide, even though we all know that it happened. No need to belittle Turks, your attacks shoud be directed against our government. I also believe that befriending us will make things easier for all. No need insulting each other, it is useless and serves no one here.
I too did not like Astarjians bravado-ish attitude. I do understand his mentality of "revenge," but against a Turk, a poor Turk, shining shoes in a foreign capital? I would suggest that Mr. Astarjian direct his "revenge" against our government, and not pick on an individual Turk.
I hope that our government will finally realize that "covering up" an old wound like the Genocide is not the right thing to do. We need to bridge the gap that has appeared between our two peoples since 1915.
I ask my Turkish friends not to insult Armenians, and from my Armenian friends not to insult Turks here and everywhere.
Wish all my Armenian friends Merry Christmas.
Deniz
Seriously, I will side with my Turkish friends here. Come on guys, we could do better than belittle things in such ignorant ways. As an Armenian, I am ashamed seeing an article that equals to nothing and is void of substance.
This was the strangest article that I've encountered here. Strange very strange.
Sarkis Hagopian
Did some of the commenters read the article? It was a few hooligans who threatened the priest -- not the Turkish people or state. But I don't think trivial details like that matter to some people when the opportunity arises to engage in anti-Islamic and anti-Turkish rhetoric.
This is an US-official Report (1921), just have a look on page 193 ...
http://books.google.fr/books?id=uhs7rWlAlCcC&dq=seymour+house+paris+1918&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=vBDIqxqsjJ&sig=iVO2B_2NuO5BKhusNbG4T9fJ93A&hl=fr&ei=JXMJS-HTJ86w4Qbt4JnBCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
There's nothing like blaming the Jews for everything that's wrong on the planet. No one even stops to consider that the Jews can't even control theor own country, one that is smaller than New Jersey, and that more than half the Jewish population of the planet has nothing to do with anything Jewish. If you want to believe the insane rants of haters who have nothing better to do than instigate stupidity and hatred for Jews who don't even live among their people, that becomes your problem. It's easier for dictators and totaliatrians and religious extremists to control their own people by focussing them to hate people who have nothing to do with them. Those who believe these lies deserve whatever they get when their human rights are trampled. Instead of revolting against their oppressors and the oil companies they deal with, they take it out on the Jews. How convenient for them.
But the National Geographic Genome project has already proven that most people on the planet have Jewish genes, even in darkest Africa. Most Europeans stem from three matrilineal Jewish lines. That includes those who considered themselves Aryans.
Pogrom anyone? Just blow up the whole planet and be done with it. That should solve the Jewish problem once and for all.
Really Selim? What did you say? For more than 94 years now the Turkish government and the people have been putting our old long Churches and Monasteries on blazing fire, and or using them as stables and toilets, but never never refurbishing thousands old our Monasteries and Churches, yet now you are saying that what is wrong with Christianity? This is a first for me. We didn't have anything against the Turks when they came into our country and took over and started stealing our beautiful girls and boys and making them 'yenicheris' and using our gorgeous girls for their harems. Then both annihilations came of 300,000 first in 1895 by Abdul Hamid II and then the 1.5 millions In 1915 by Talaat Pasha and his murderers. Our martyrs' bones have been scattered all over our historical homeland which is today's so called Turkey, and our holy Churches and Monasteries have been used in the worse possible ways. Yet you happen to have the audacity to say what is wrong with Christianity? For goodness sake, look into the mirrors and say to yourselves, what is wrong with Islams that hate Christians so much to do so many murders and belligerent acts against God loving and God fearing Christians! It is not Christians who hated Moslems, but it was Moslems that hated us and killed us and used us in the worse possible ways; rather completely and solely got rid of us in most horrific ways.
It is us who should ask you people; what is wrong with Islams that hate Christians so much!
Two parts for my current contribution:
A] I couldn't expect so many errors or approximations in that text which cites references:
The Ottoman and the Kemalist declared war to Russia or to USSR. That reality is easily ignored by the pro-turkish columnists.
The Ottomans joined the Kaiser and declared war to Allies in 1914.
(In the WW2, Ankara declared war to Germany 7 weeks before the suicide of Hitler!)
Someone write "the first murderers were the armenian troops with the Russian army", I only suggest to that Someone to verify the date of the Russian attack compared to 1915. I have not the same data.
I had never heard before that the ASALA killed the diplomats because they were Dönme. Something new? I am always surprised to notice the turks making confusion with ASALA and Dashnag-party, it's absolutely different and, even more, ASALA commited only half of the attempts.
So many defaults weaken the text and make the author unbelievable.
B] Why to mention "antisemitism" (again and again) like a shield ?
Height members of CUP were jews. It seems that was reality. Some of them, like the lawyer Carasso, Ben Gourion etc... came from Europ. They were famous Zionists who wanted to ask the Sultan for an jewish province in the Ottoman Empire.
In the past, it was rivalry between the jews+Janissaries and the Armenians (Thesis By Jamgocyan, La Sorbonne, Paris).
It could be interesting to study if there was a link.
Today, 64 years after the WW2 Demjanjuk who is supposed to be involved in the Genocide of the Jews, is prosecuted.
C] On 1967, consecutively to the Israeli-Egypt war, General De Gaule President of France, declared "That people (Israel) of elite self-confident and dominating". Another President, François Mitterrand declared to Jean D'Ormesson " There is in France, a jewish lobby very powerful and harmful (in Le Rapport Gabriel". (It is easily verifiable with Google.). They have never been called "antisemitic". That people gives to humanity the best, philosophers, scholars, physicians, musicians but, also the worst : Kissinger (see "the Crimes of Mr.Kissinger" he daren't come in Europ), Wolfowitz, Pearl, B.Lewis, Sharon, Dayan (who ousted that nice PM, Levi Eshkol for he wanted to treat tactfully the inferior Egyptian army)...
I am not apologizing. It's just a courtesy question. Thank you for your compliments.
"But the National Geographic Genome project has already proven that most people on the planet have Jewish genes, even in darkest Africa. Most Europeans stem from three matrilineal Jewish lines. That includes those who considered themselves Aryans."
This is sheer madness, another Jewish propaganda scheme to get people involved in their debilitating self-awareness.. Armenians, as a people, were living in the Armenian highland before Jews even existed as a nation-state (hence the advent of the Bronze and Iron age in Greater Armenia and archeological discoveries from the Araxes culture, circa 4,000 BC) . Most Europeans do not 'stem' from any three matrilineal lines, much less three JEWISH lines. Let's not even get started about Africa and Asia. The oldest known historical evidence of Judaism comes the a few centuries before Ramses, sometime around 1700 BC.
I still want to know why Avo doesn't think we should get Kilikia back...? Or does he...? (and part of northern Iran).
Karekin you are right. I mean about Armenians and Europeans having their own blood but not mixed with Jewish blood. After all, Armenians are at least 7-8,000 years old nationality. Even the Chinese are not as old, they are only 5,600 year old nationality. The British migrated from Armenia. It's in their history's manuscripts and it is on the website. Anyone can see it. Furthermore, Armenians first created the calendars. The Greek Panthenon was built 5,000 years after ours was built. And Garni Keghart was built only 1,000 years ago. We taught the world architecture, engineering and building.
I think what Ms. Friedman is referring to is a particular Near Eastern/Anatolian gene that is found throughout the world. Arabs, Turks, Kurds, Armenians also have that genetic marker. If anything the gene in question is more Armenian than anything else, but it is silly to attach a nationality to it.
And please Ms. Friedman, don't bring points into this discussion that no one has brought up, stick to the topic.
I don't think anyone here is saying that Jews were responsible for the Genocide, what some have pointed out is that there is evidence to support the claims that some of the young turks were of Jewish extraction, and that Zionism was/is against Armenia. Also, Ms. Friedman, do you not find it ironic that Jewish organizations have for years lobbied against the U.S. recognition of the Armenian Genocide, and the fact that Israel, a nation built out of the ashes of the Jewish Genocide, does NOT recognize the Genocide of the Armenians?
Deniz, your comments suggest that you are an honorable person....not because we agree on the injustices commited against the Armenians, but because you have the attitude to accept the truth
and the courage to move on to a brighter future. One of the tragedies of the Turkish government's denial policy, is that it makes it impossible for the decendants of the survivors to end their grief.
A crime unpunished is frustrating,but a crime unpunished and unrecognized is unbearable. One form of closure is apathy which,in a sense, is a continuation of genocide... a cultural assimilation that leads to the complete loss of identity. Another reaction to this lack of closure is the constant use of stereotypes towards Turks. You are correct, Deniz. Our energy needs to be focused towards the government, not the people. We are stuck in negative generalizations. In fact, building relationships based on a common desire to reconcile can help our position. It is quite possible to be passionate about the recognition of the Genocide and to build relationships with Turks. To not is to be limited to a frustrating culture of ethnocentric stereotyping. Sounds great when you are with other Armenians, but does nothing for the cause that we profess to embrace.
There are more things binding Turks and Armenians together than most people on either side care to admit. We have a shared history of 800 years, many shared cultural traits and shared human interactions. We even have shared familial ties resulting from the events of the Genocide, though most of us don't know it or will not accept it. Now if only we can get past the Genocide issue we may be able to restore our severed relations.
It is pointless for the Turkish government and for so many Turks to keep denying the Genocide and defending the Young Turk regime's decision to destroy the whole of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire when that regime was an utter failure for the the Turkish people! What glory did they bring to the Turkish nation that they deserve to be defended? They brought only defeat and shame. So, why defend them and their actions? It's pointless. We don't see modern Germany defending the actions of the Third Reich or barring criticism of their actions. Yet, that's what successive Turkish governments from 1923 to now have done with the subject of the Armenian Genocide by denying the Genocide. Denial of the Genocide is de facto protection of the Young Turk regime and its failed policies.
A more constructive approach would be for modern Turks to say "There was a genocide against the Armenians, it was committed by a rogue organization within the Turkish government of 1915, and we distance ourselves from their actions. We are not like them and we don't approve of what they did in our name. The Turkish people do not approve of genocide. Period." This would go a long way toward healing old wounds and setting the Turkish nation on record as affirming history and the principles of justice.
As a Turk I am not upset because some of us choose to believe what the Turkish government kept saying us at home, and some of us choose to believe there was genocide because of the heavy propaganda abroad. Both sides prefer not to investigate the matter and find it comfortable to decide without thinking based on historical evidence. (It is none of my business to relate these propositions to the comfort that the Armenians found in believing what their grandparents told them, or what their religious leaders used it as a dogmatic thought to keep the nation united).
Read both sides of the story before accepting or rejecting. Leave your prejudices behind - he is a man of Turkish government, he is a Turkish scholar - or - on the other side, he is a sexual harasser, he used to be a communist.
Think about the evidence only; look if it is forgery or real; but more important than all, read both sides and be fair. Than if you found both sides have made terrible things, don't ignore one side and don't put the blame on the other.
Read, read, read and think.
I think the point was to disprove the racist theory of the Nazis by saying there is no thing as white supremacy or genes. Also, in addition to their racist theory, the Nazis were the worst antisemites. If Nazis continue to spread their propaganda today, AR (which I believe you are doing); and the Jews have always been their target, we can easily prove the Germans were the instigators behind the Armenian genocide and later the Holocaust (this is an established historical fact I believe). Later Ataturk said that Turkey should never get into another war, and if it had to, never to be on the side of the Germans again, when you win with Germany, you lose. Was that an implication that he thought the Armenian genocide had been wrong and instigated by Germany? The first Turkish govt. after the genocide, had decided to make reparations and restore the Armenians to their homes and land; but that govt. fell before it could be done; so many Turks thought what was done to the Armenians was wrong at the time.
I am reading the autobiography of Caleb Frank Gates, who was a missionary from Chicago, who came and taught the Armenians at Harput during the massacres, and later became president of Robert College in Constantinople. I believe his book gives an accurate eye witness account of what happened during the Armenian massacres. It is quite an interesting book; and I hope many of you will read it. He was also one of the people to draft the Lausanne Treaty, and he gives his reasons for why he suggested the terms of the Treaty,and also his heart wrenching description of what was going on to the Armenians. I am researching the pictures I have of my family in Turkey and found one I believe is of Caleb Frank Gates with my uncle, a student at Robert College. I hope what I research will interest many of you as it has interested me. I will supply his autobiography with the pictures to the Armenians for their historical records.
Hagop, there is not much of a fine line between the Turkish State and its para military and hooligan forces.
Selim, I often read of Muslims and Leftists throwing the racism accusation against those that are critical of Islam, but Islam is not a race! This accusation of racism is obfuscation and deceit.
Avo, I hope you won't lose your courage and bravado when Azeris attack Artsakh. We need people like you to run and face our enemy on the battlefield....will you? And since your friend Dino suggested that you are "Gods gift to the Armenian people," you should go to Armenia and fight in a volunteer army.
The only people here sane enough to talk some real sense are Karekin, Mike Sinan and Henry Amaduni. Look, you cannot fight the Turkish government with empty rhetoric. Our mission in life is to get justice for the 1.5 million massacred Armenians by making sure that the world and the Turkish government recognize the Genocide. The rest, land reparations etc etc can be arranged by "talking" with the Turkish government. No need for arrogance my friend. Your "high pitched" and "combative" posts and arguments are causing more damage for our cause than any good. You will never get what you want by antagonizing Turks. Turks access Armenian Weekly to see, read, learn and argue(civilized way) the Genocide, if they don't, then the whole idea of this forum will be doomed, as one sane Armenian put it nicely. What is it that you will gain by arrogance? Nothing. We need to talk to these young Turks frequenting this and other forums. If they don't agree with you, then, without any bellicose statements, try to explain to them the facts, direct them to some websites where they can read and decide for themselves. But you cannot hide behind the shadows of Armenian Weekly and harass and belittle fellow Armenians and visiting Turks.
Why would I read about the Genocide? I know about it, both my great parents were orphaned because of the Genocide. The whole idea of having the Armenian Weekly will be useless, IF only Armenians access it. We need more Turks accessing Armenian Weekly. Not all Turks are bad people. Most will listen to you if you open up to them. But if you keep attacking them and your fellow Armenians because they can't see what you are seeing, then you lost not only your Armenian friends here, but also visiting Turks.
To: Armenian Weekly
The Only irrelevant and childish articles in the Armenian Weekly are always written by Henry Astarjian. I thought that Armenian Weekly should have been a place where "engaging minds of higher caliber" discuss important matters.
Next thing I know, Mr. Astarjian will write an article about Hoxa Nassreddine.
Come on guys, be serious and don't let Armenian Weekly become the laughing stock of all.
Stepan, Actually I agree with you about the Genocide and other injustices committed against the Armenians. I understand the frustration of all Armenians worldwide. Remember, the more Turks that are exposed to the truth of the Genocide, the more Turks can pressure our government to recognize the Genocide. Most Turks are ignorant when the issue of Genocide is discussed. For the last century, our history books lacked the "killings of 1.5 million Armenians." The current Turkish population who grew up knowing absolutely nothing about the Genocide, are suddenly slammed by the idea that their great great fathers committed this heinous crime. So, most Turks become defensive. But remember, there are thousands upon thousands of good Turks, who want nothing but the recognition of the Genocide. You have Dr Akcam, Nobel Peace prize poet Orhan Pamuk and thousands of other Turks, who are sick and tired by the continuation of this injustice to the 1.5 million killed Armenians. We want their sould to rest in peace. And so, we need the help of all Armenians to contact every single Turk, and in a civilized way, without throwing accusations and asking for this and that. Always remember, most Turks did not know that the Genocide happened. They grew up knowing nothing about the Genocide. I grew up thinking how good these Armenian jewelers were in Istanbul. How interesting their churches were. How good their doctors were. Minas, my Armenian friend in college never mentioned anything about the Genocide. We went to movies, restaurants, we married, he attended my wedding, I his, but now I know why he did not mention the Genocide, because he had to keep the pain a secret from me. Now looking back, I realize why on April 24 he always missed school and was home sick. I always thought that Armenians in Turkey resided only in Istanbul. Never did I know that these Armenians were the remnants of a 2-3 million strong Armenian community in the Ottoman Empire. My shock was great when I first heard about the Genocide. How painful must have been for these poor souls being driven to the deserts. The pictures of tiny Armenian orphans broke my heart. The pictures of the thousands of dead Armenians on the roads just brought me pain and shame. I am sorry for this horrendous injustice committed against your people. If great Turks like Orhan Pamuk and Dr Akcam recognized the Genocide, who am I not to?
The day will come, when we will be friends again.
I consider all Armenians my friends.
Your Turkish friend, deniz
Genocide denial,
The typical turk, trying to tell Armenians their own history. Stick to the subject, stop bringing in bs and if you care so much about anti-semitism, then do something about it in your country, which ranks quite high in anti-Armenian, anti-American, and anti-Jewish sentiments.
Spare us the research, or rather the garbage, which you are 'researching'.
Mr. Sarkisian states that the purpose of establishing "an inter-governmental sub-commission" is to "give an opportunity to Armenian and Turkish peoples to find common grounds for mutual trust and dialogue."
How may I ask can such an "inter-governmental sub-commission" provide an "opportunity to Armenian and Turkish peoples to find common grounds for mutual trust and dialogue" when archaic laws like Articel 301 of the Turkish Penal Code undermine the very nature of dialogue, trust and truth?
Onnik, you would have a point if your approach had anything to show for it. It was tried and failed in the first fifty years after the Genocide to no avail. It was just tried and failed with the protocols signed by Armenia and Turkey. Not only Turkey has not relented one bit, but it has also made more bellicose announecements on Karabagh, Zangezur and Genocide recognition. As for winning hearts and minds, I am not against it but it does not make one bit of a difference because our conflict is with the Turkish state, not with Turkish individuals. Theoretically, all Turks might come to acknowledge the veracity of the Genocide and the justice of our demands yet nothing there would change the interests of the Turkish state, which pin it naturally against Armenian interests. No decent human being would agree to a war, yet that was what Armenians had to do in order to save Karabagh Armenians from the fate our kin underwent 94 years ago. While your point on earning the goodwill of Turks it's well taken, I do not think there is a need to remind here that this is an Armenian newspaper informing anyone in the world who pleases to read it, but it is not a vehicle for a public relations campaign to mince words that may offend the Turks.
You are entitled to your own convictions. I don't like war but as you may know if you know our history, it's not that we have had a lot of choice when we had to fight for our survival. If you think that saying nice things to the Turks so they consider that maybe their country committed Genocide will make ANY difference in Turkey's goal of taking at some point Zangezur and unify both halves of the Turkic world, then take a second look at the issue. I have nothing further to say on this. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all. Շնորհաւոր Նոր Տարի եւ Սուրբ Ծնունդ բոլորիդ:
"The only people here sane enough to talk some real sense are Karekin, Mike Sinan and Henry Amaduni."
During the last 15 years of the Soviet Union nationalists were thrown into insane asylums. Under the same rhetorical assumptions. It's common simple minded rhetoric to imply that ideas not of your liking are crazy so as to dismiss them out of hand without I must emphaize, a cogent rebuttal to those ideas. Seriously, I would like to have the following questions answered by karekin, mike and henry. If you could snap your finger and all the turks would instantly disappear from anatolia, would you snap your finger? Yes or no would suffice. Also, are you for the protocols yes or no. I would like to know what the holy trinity really thinks. But if you are going to throw back handed insults then we will know more about you as men then about where you stand. It's funny how you guys stand behind pseudonyms. For all the we know karekin, mike and henry is just one guy.
I am an Armenian, my mother happens to be Jewish, so I guess my Armenian friends will call me a Jew. But trust me, I am a proud Armenian. My grandfather ended up in Der Zor desert, where he was picked up by priests and eventually brought to Beirut and into an orphanage.
Let us look at some numbers here. Estimated offsprings of:
1. Armenian -Jews= about 70,000, some estimate as high as 100,000.
2. Turkish-Jews= about 300, some estimates as high as 600, and all Islamized.
Now, we have the cards in our corner, but are not using it. And there the Turks use their estimated 300-600 Islamized mixed Jews for their benefit.
What do/did we do to reach out to world Jewery? Nothing.
Yeah yeah, we all know that the love affair between Israel and Turkey is solely a strategic partnership. Israel knows damn well, that sooner or later, Islamic Turkey will betray Israel, but for now they need each other. And trust me, I hate Israel for turning its back on us. But things are changing.
We need to come together and form a solid bond between Israel and Armenia. We cannot forever villify the Jews for anything and everything that happens in the world? You see how foolishly we fall for stupid inuendos and start an anti-Jewish campaign, and all the while Turkey stands and watches with admiration for our political naivette? Who cares who was jewish in the ranks of the young Turks, what difference would that have made, if for example the leaders of the young Turks were predominantly Albanian. Absolutely nothing. And who cares whether the majority of Communist leaders in Russia were of Jewish origin. If the Russians were that dumb, then they deserved those jewish leaders. And what about Stalin? He killed an estimated(latest estimates 2008) about 39 million people in the Soviet Union. So, we should villify Georgians for Stalins muderous regime?
A crime has been committed, and the country known as the Ottoman Empire committed that crime. If there was an Islamized Jew in their ranks, well, too bad, as all 300-600 mixed current Turkish-Jews are Muslim.
As for the "Freemasonry," I got some encouraging news for my people here.
Most of the high ranking High Malakhiahs in the USA are either Armenian or Jewish.
Check the history of the Freemasonry, and you will be surprised to see the number of Armenians in the organization. Krikor Zohrab was a high ranking Freemason, and he was not spared death at the hands of the Turks. To conclude, Armenians are, read my words, "heavily" involved in Freemasonry, and you will be surprised if I divulge the names of Armenian government officials, and reputable party members(all 3 traditional Armenian parties) here in the USA, who are high ranking Freemasons. So, does that mean we have traitors in our ranks? Come on guys, let's grow up.
We need to stay away from gossip, whether that gossip is true or imaginary, and stick to our main goal, the Recognition of the Genocide.
As children, many of us had an excercise called 'connect the dots', at the end of which, we were able to see a very clear picture of something that was previously invisible. Sadly, many adult Armenians are failing this fairly straightforward excercise. They're also failing to follow the idea that 'where there is smoke, there is fire'. If an entire group of people, their leaders and organizations - other than nationalist Turks - deny the veracity of the Armenian genocide...there might be a much deeper historical reason that has nothing to do with current geopolitical realities. Time to wake up and smell the real coffee that's brewing....
Congrats Paul! You have made us all very proud. An important victory that has brought smiles to faces of thousands of Armenian Americans from the east coast to the west coast. Your consistent work ethic and civility, despite the hate and outright bigotry emanating from misguided opponents, proved just how courageous, dignified and determined you are.
Paul, your victory is our community's victory and in turn America's. Well done and may your inspiration, leadership and vision empower other motivated Armenian Americans to achieve more in the future.
Vartzget Gadar.
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Dr. Astarjian, you wrote yet another article that cuts into the jugular. Thank you once more.
Thank you, Armenian Weekly, for publishing this. Astarjian is someone who doesn't feign from telling it like it is, and it is indeed the "esheg oghlu esheg" culture that still dominates our "good neighbor." You have done well to publish someone who doesn't suffer from the "political correctness disease", which is by far a worse intellectual degenerative agent that Syphilis ever was.
Well, I think Astarjian is awesome! Keep pluggin away!
Hy
Selim, since you are in/from Turkey you are able better to count the Armenian Christian churches which were used for other purposes: stables, storage areas and more - where Chrisitian Armenians were forced into and the buildings set afire...
You shall also be able to find the Armenian Christian churches which the Genocidal Turks converted to Muslim religious edifices. Too, the architecture of these Armenian religious structures display, where time has not 'erased' them - still embrace the symbolic Armenian crosses as well as the architecture, uniquely Armenian...
Now, marked with Muslim symbols and in use by Muslims many of these Armenian churches still bear the Christian Armenian crosses - which were built into the architecture - probably too high up on the building for the Muslim to bother removing... And, I donot hate any religion, except when a religion is misused for all the wrong reasons, including Genocides!
End of discussion. Manooshag
Deniz really put things in perspective. My wife is Bolsahay and can attest to what Deniz has said. Many Turks don't know anything whatsoever about Armenians so when they hear about the Genocide, they become very defensive, it is something very alien to them. The truth is being realized in Turkey, albeit slowly.
Anyway, thank you Deniz.
For the record, I don't know Mike or Henry at all, other than their responses on here. As for the 'snap your fingers question'...it just shows a very childish response to a very serious issue and a very long series of historical events. No one can challenge history...it's already happened. The Arabs, the Persians, the Russians, the Greeks, the Turks...they've all overrun Armenia along the way during the last 3000 years. If you snapped your fingers, would you turn the clock back to the beginning? How ridiculous a question is that? If you really care about Armenia at all and its survival, you should be thinking about the future, not obsessing about a past you cannot change! You should be talking about today's reality and dealing with it in a practical way that takes these realities into consideration. Throwing coins into a wishing well isn't an intelligent excercise, and neither is ranting and raving at a boogeyman you have no power over. Pres. Sarkisian, no matter what his faults may be, is dealing with or attempting to deal with a very difficult reality - his country is in a very difficult position...how does he change it for the better? There are many larger and more powerful forces working against him....so, he certainly doesn't need criticism and anger from the peanut gallery. It's a waste of time, energy and everything else to do that. If you want to release your tensions and anger, find another forum...take it out somewhere else, but leave people here alone to discuss things intelligently. Please.
Hye, President Obama,
Well, by now you have had time to observe the politics of having to deal with a Turkey. A leadership
that is unable to observe, among others, the morality of issues.
Further, having to date committed two Genocides:
- 1896-2009: The Armenian Genocide perpetrated, to this date in denials, but in pursuit of crushing the Armenians into today - still;
- 20th century into 21st century: currently, unrecognized, the Genocide of the Kurdish people...
in Turkey as well - wherever else the Kurds may be. Kurds are Freedom Fighters - seeking to break away from the tyranny of the Turks.
Genocides: the slaughter of humans by humans... Animals kill only for food. Not for the 'fun'...
Turks, kill eliminate a people whose homeland they want to acquire for the hordes
that came down from the Asian mountains - stealing the Armenian homeland as a 'ready-made"
nation - claiming Armenian lands and the Armenian culture as the Turks own!
Genocides = savagery
Animals kill only for their food
Humans kill humans, savagely - as the Turks - to gain what belongs to others as if their own...
Manooshag
Avo, no one here has any issues with your ideas. The problem is your attitude towards those who disagree with your point of view. And trust me, it is a mystery as to why your attacks on fellow Armenians has been going on unabated. I think that you have some kind of a connection with people inside Armenian Weekly.
Keep your amateurish dreams at bay. You are doing more damage to the Armenian cause than anyone else here. You cannot win any points by asking way too much in way too little time. And please stop your attacks on fellow Armenians. Did you know that people who talk big, deliver very little if nothing. Look at Israel, they say very little, but boy do they deliver some nasty punches.
Dino asked: "If you could snap your finger and all the turks would instantly disappear from anatolia, would you snap your finger?" Once again very elementary amateurish question, but...
My answer? A Gigantic NO. Why should we? Turks are people too, and majority of Turks are good people. They have been living there for hundreds of years. Who are we to remove them from their homes? Even if they forced us out and occupied our houses, well... the current reality is that they live there, and we don't.
I am for the "protocols" if Armenias and Artsakhs security is guaranteed.
I personally know Mike Sinan, a dedicated Dashnak since 1982, but who usually tries to use his powerful mind, over his weak emotions.
I understand that you lack political acumen, but for Christ's sake, STOP your, if Armenian Weekly will allow me to use, this "childish and very arrogant" attacks on others.
You guys are making Armenian Weekly look like a "fools lair." The professionalism of past participants have been replaced by people who vent childish and unwise nonsense.
As for Dino, seems like he is your subordinate. He keeps "Ay-ing" and "Na-ying" like a trained parrot, every single word you write. Strange indeed. Let Dino fly free from your talons, let him express his thoughts more freely and more intellegently.
Come on people, let us not make Armenian Weekly a stage for fools talking and screaming ...absolute "nothings."
Once again, the majority of Armenians, like myself and 2.9 million Armenians in Armenia, are more interested for the recognition of the Genocide, than other issues.
And don't even try to call me a "defeatist" or a "Turk," I have been, for the last 18 years, a committed member of the ARF. But the times require that we move our attention to the current situation in Artsakh and Armenia, and the Genocide. You guys are running too fast, we cannot "kill two birds with one stone," we don't have the economic, military and human resources to accomplish all the things that we dream of.
One step at a time, will take us forward. Remember a Chinese saying: " A journey of 100 miles starts with a (one) step."
I know two high ranking ARF members, 1 Ramgavar and 3 Hunchaks, these are high ranking party officials, mind you.. who are also high ranking Freemasons. Also 2 high ranking ARF members in Armenia whose mothers are Jewish. So, what was the point bringing Freemasonry or Jewishness in this article. Christ, almost all of my friends are Freemasons. Does this mean that our leaders too, are involved in treacherous activities, that we don't know of? Grow up people.
Whether there were Jewish, Zionist or Freemasonry conspiracies against us, then look around and you'll see all three in our people. I have heard that Armenian-Jewish people number more than 120,000. But are we able to harness this powerhouse for our benefit? NOOOOOOOO, because we all are blinded by this and that. And there in Turkey, they have learned long ago to use and harness the energy from 500 plus Islamized Jews for their benefit.
Now, you tell me who is ahead of this game, the Armenians or the Turks?
The answer is in big T T T T T T T T T T Turkey.
Now look at us, once again being distracted from our main goals.
When will we learn, relax and move forward?
Shnorhavor elah Baron Krekorian. I've been following your path to victory from day one of your campaign from all the way out here on the East coast!!!! I echo the heartfelt sentiments above by Sevag in his comments in wishing you all the best.
Pari Dzenoont yev Shnorhavor Nor Dury!
Who are they trying to fool? Dikrnagertsi makes a good point above.
So am I to believe now that turkey signed the protocols knowing that the inter-governmental sub-commission is not a commision of historians to re-examine the fact of the Armenian genocide?
The fundamental problem is in the completely opposite treatment received by the Armenian and Jewish subjects of the Ottoman Empire. While Jewish subjects were being sheltered, promoted and elevated to very high positions and certain dönme were making indispensable contributions to the development of lethal Turkish nationalism, Armenians were being persecuted, dispossessed and ultimately exterminated. This has to be squarely confronted if Armenians and Jews are to walk into the future hand in hand and with their eyes open. Ultimately the responsibility for the Armenian Genocide rests with the Turkish state, regardless of the ethnic extraction of the individuals who were the architects of its crimes. And it would be well to remind the President and the world that "Medz Yeghern" does not mean "great catastrophe". It means very simply "Great Crime".
Armenian officials just don't get it.
How can a so called commission promote dialogue between two groups of people on a topic, when one group of people (the Turks) are blatantly threatened with lawsuits, harassment and even murder for talking about that topic? What a joke.
Turks living in Turkey need to understand the truth about the Armenian Genocide from dialogue between honest Turkish scholars and the Turkish government. When this happens, dialogue, trust and respect between Armenia and Turkey will be based on truth and will be a lot more fruitful and much easier.
Until then, trying to build "mutual trust and dialogue" between Turkey and Armenia or Armenians and Turks is a waste of time and resources.
Turkish hypocrisy and political game continued in Washington
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Is Turkey US Ally
December 15, 2009 at 12: 20 pm
What I see happening is that Turkish and almost every other country’s politicians meet behind closed doors and devise often unethical strategies for their gains. Since WWI, Turkey has been effective in marketing itself as a US ally, a Soviet ally, a Russian ally, a Muslim ally, an Iranian ally, a European ally, a Nazi ally, a Jewish ally, an Azeri ally, a Palestenian ally. They are even a Chechen ally and a de facto Al Queida ally. In the end their shortchange everyone but are conniving enough for none to notice.
All our leaders do is get a political position and then work on expanding their personal businesses (like restaurants and shopping centers), devouring good meals, and fighting each other. No strategic meetings between them and foreign nationals occur, except an occasional one with Russia or Iran. They do no marketing of their strategic location or capabilities nor make any threats. Such a passive stance will be destructive.
Why doesn’t the US feel compelled to support Armenia; otherwise Armenia may support the Iranian nuclear program for example. Why doesn’t Iran support Armenia, fearing it may allow US bases to use its soil. Why doesn’t Armenia partially absolve itself of responsibility of the Karabakh issue and shift some of the negotiations to Karabakh. Just like the rest of the world, Armenia needs to approach any set of negotiations with a multi-faceted approach, sometimes siding and defying with the adversary or mediator at the same time.
Masis Babajanian MD
California, USA
The point of this article is very clear. Why are people confused or embarrased? Astarjian is saying things have not changed much in Turkey since Ottoman times. That's all. The last paragraphs explain that.
Diran, can't you see the difference between the 2.5 million Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire, and the 60,000 Jewish subjects of the same Empire. One living on its ancestral land, the other, merely passing by. Now, assuming that you are a highly intelligent young man, who do you think the Ottoman Empire will have issues with? The Armenians? or the Jews? The threat naturally will come from the Armenians, living on their lands and counting 2.5 million. Whereas the Jews lived in Istanbul(mainly) and were no threat to the Ottoman Empire.
Hence the systematic massacre of the Armenians.
I don't understand why we are naive falling into this Turkish traps over and over again? Why?
We should act like the Turks, kiss the Jews and then turn around and stab them (remember how erdogan made Peres look like a first rate dumbbed fool???), and not the other way around.
We love Jews and Israel, period, end of story.
There certainly are a lot of antisemitic comments under this article.
1. Re: Jack Manuelian and Christopher the Nazi. JM also writes for the Nostradamus society; he predicted WWIII and the end of the world will come in 2012. Anyone interested in 2012, this is the Mayan year for apocalypse; and there is a movie out called 2012 which you can go see and entertain yourself. Obviously, the only entertainment you get is reading or imagining Jewish conspiracy theories and maybe apocalypse 2012. Anyone who believes 2012 is the end of the world and WWIII is coming and Jewish conspiracy theories and calls historical research b.s., are you sure you are not one of those genocide deniers.
2. Many Jews were also killed during the Armenian massacres.
3. I did read that Jews and Armenians did fight with each other in Turkey; maybe due to the Ottoman system which pit each against another; I think you can also evidence this in Lebanon today, which has no Jews now, but has shiites, sunnis and Christians fighting with each other due to the confessional system. Armenians did also fight with each other, Zoroastrians vs. Christians. It is possible, David, son of Queen Esther, fought your Vartan). Maybe some people fight religious wars, Christians vs. Jews. Everything was not all roses in the past; but blaming the Jews for the Armenian genocide is as silly, I think, as believing the world will end in 2012. Anyway, a lot of Jews and Christian Armenians are intermarried today. Jewish history was influenced by Persians a lot; they were pretty close people, but look at Iran today (Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier; and is he Armenian - Sabojtian?); can you believe this is the land of biblical Persia and Cyrus, of Esther and Zoroaster? What has happened to Iran?
Armenians do deserve sympathy for what happened to them; they deserve attention and love from the world; the Armenian genocide was one of the worst crimes in history as was the Holocaust.
Unfortunately, many of you speak badly of Jews and blame them for your troubles, but I don't think you will find many or any Jews who would not feel sorry for you or would deny the Armenian genocide.
I read that it took a long time for the Lausanne Treaty to be passed (years) because USA did not want to do business with the new Nationalistic Turkey due to the Armenian genocide. It was passed after much deliberation due to the missionaries (who thought that Armenians could never live side by side with Turks again and that this would always be a difficulty for them; they suggested the Armenians move away from them) and that it was better to keep channels open with Turkey; by American business interests who wanted to protect their interests by keeping diplomatic channels open with Ataturk; and maybe the oil business. Real politics, capitalism, took precedent over humanitarianism perhaps. It seems you are still fighting to change the Lausanne treaty and get reparations and land back. I just thought that many historians know that Americans had been on the side of the Armenians and did not want to do business with Ataturk's Turkey at all, but I wonder how many people don't.
So USA has been playing real politics; not because they were anti-Armenian or pro-Turk, but for various reasons, including business reasons. Also, 1932 was the year Turkish nationalists shut down the history dept. at Robert College and replaced it with Turkish teachers and I guess their own version of history; and this is the year the president of Robert College left because his son was the history professor, and this is the year my dad and uncle probably left. Turkish nationalism took over the University more and more every year and more minorities left Turkey, etc.
More crap for you to complain about.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's insulting statements on the Armenian Genocide are not a problem but the Armenian President's illegality is. All those who support the latter as pocket balls, such as Mr. Gagik Sahakyan, Mr. Rudik Martirosyan, Mr. Hovik Abrahamyan are going to perish, making the Republic of Armenia a country-non-grata in the globalizing world.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com
I just can't stand this matter of fact approach our government is taking toward Turkey and how they are conducting business in regards to the protocols..
Is there anyone alive in the Armenian govt to slap Sarkissian from his sleep? I dont' understand how much evidence do they need to stop all this and just spit Turkey out of the equation all together?
Silence does make the deniers job easy.. I agree with you Harout.. It is unfortunate...
Hope that our joint efforts will pay off and we won't stand still and without our screams..
I am ready to voice and scream.. are you?
This opinion peice about the barbarians that run so called turkey is within bounds of qaulity of the Armenian weekly. Only rabid lapdogs of the enemies of the Armenian people would be upset. Nothing out of bounds of decency was said. We must always be aware of what the enemy does and says. They also come to this website and pretend to be Armenians. It's been documented as to the lengths the barbarians go raise false flag tactics on Armenian opinion sites. I personally know Armenians who actually side with the turks about Armenian national issues. These so called Armenians are self loathing and seek mental solace from trying to be friends with the enemy and pursue political correctness. It's too bad the ones that spread their propaganda dont put their real names to their turkish inspired sophistry. It's funny how those who dont agree with nationalist oppinions utilize irrrelevant, childish and back handed insults to obfuscate so as to prevent real debate.
Hagop, You fault me for an alleged arrogance that your comment is overflowing with. I have no inside connection whatsoever with the Weekly staff --to their credit, they are running your comment hinting at some "collusion" (for lack of a better word-- without even knowing who I am. While I enjoy irony, which in other parts of the world is met with humour and respect without missing on the message that's being conveyed, American readers find it offensive. Too bad for them. The more angry you get, the bigger the fun. Grow up and try to handle it. Or, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I am not writing for your approval. I really couldn't care less, esp. after reading what you have to say: a lot of nothing in too many words.
I said as much as you said, withouth attacking anyone: that our problem is with the Turkish state, not with Turkish individuals. So, no attacks there. Only in your imagination. Your problem.
One point to you, "committed member of the ARF for the last 18 years" (that would make me think that you would have a connection). If that's what you are and I am not buying it for a fraction of a second, I need to remind that this is a forum where people are free to express themselves and I take full advantage of that, as you do. There is a moderator for that. Let me quote you a writer whose ideas you probably share: stop this "childish and very arrogant attacks" on others. That's to quote you. You are not here in a ARF meeting, where you can call everybody to order to read what comes from high above. You dislike an idea, you say it, whether writing well or, as you do, in a very amateurish style. It is a mystery what do you mean by "You cannot win any points by asking way too much in way too little time". I really don't know if that's addressed to me or what you are referring to: in any case I don't care one bit. Just do me a favour: don't come here to lecture. And it's time to go to sleep. You should have been put to bed a long time ago. Kisher pari.
Many people were screaming before the protocols came about. Unfortunately, not many paid any attention. Harut is only one example of a consistent voice yelling at the top of his lungs every week in defense of our cause for decades now!
Harsh realities like the introduction of the protocols however have the desired effect of WAKING ARMENIANS UP to the reality of our cause. The revelation of the protocols have hopefully now awoken at least some members of our community from their deep slumber...
Now its time for action before the majority begin yawning again.
The “an inter-governmental sub-commission” should be used by Armenian side as a platform to bring up the so feared G-word in Turkey as much as possible. Then ordinary Turks out of curiosity or controversy will do some research of their own by reading about the events of those days in various sources. Without communication you cannot change anyone's ideas.
Hi Dino:
Why are you hate Turks? RA and Armenian people are not our enemies. We have lived 700 years together. We have a lot of in common. Of course we have differences. If you are disagree with us, please tell your opinion without using vulgar language. You have no right to insult Turks. If you insult the Turks, they will ignore you and this discussion forum will be from Armenian to Armenian. I would appreciate, if you discuss your opinion like civilized person. Thank you.
The Turks are going to make sure that the "commission" deals with every instance of where an Ottoman Armenian ever killed a Turk or rebelled or went over to the Russian side during WW 1.
Well, supposedly Turks are still just like they were in Ottoman times (nevermind that Republic of Turkey is an antethesis of Ottoman dynasty in every aspect imaginable). It seems to be an improvment though to where Armenians are if we attempt to judge them (I dont!) by the quality and tone of this wonderful piece and the responses it has evoked!
You have an excellent point Serop.
There are mountains of differences between the attitude and actions of Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Jews and their fates during the worst times of the Ottomans.
Armenians hatched a Greater Armenia scheme, on lands to be ethnically cleansed (of its Muslims) at the expense of the Sick Man of Europe. They took up arms, attacked civilians and soldiers when the country was already under attack on all sides, they launched first terrorist attacks in modern times against their own state and country, they joined the enemy with the weapons given to them to defend their lands, they gave the keys of ancient Ottoman cities in the East to Czar's generals, and in short they presented a mortal threat not just to the state but to the very people of the land.
Ottoman Jews did none of that.
You seem half smart Serop, you think this explains the difference in the fates of these two "millets"?
I find it most amusing of course, in a site like this where hardcore racists and bigots get together, denigrate other cultures and ethnicites, pump each other with Islamophobia and Turkophobia, and then without a trace of irony, complain about those so-called racist and bigoted Turks. It is just precious!
The comparative population is a very valid point. Not only that, the Turkish Jews were not restive or separatist like the Armenians. But the point is that the important contributions made to the program of the Young Turks by its dönme members coincided with contemporaneous Zionist efforts to establish a Jewish homeland on Ottoman real estate, although that factor was always denied in favor of the strict Ottomanism professed by the dönme. Here is a quote from page 230 of the book "Jews, Turks, Ottomans", edited by Avigdor Levy, from the section authored by Feroz Ahmad, in which probably the best known of the dönme figures in the CUP, Emmanuel Karasu, is being discussed: 'The Jewish political élite was never monolithic, and the conflicting commitments to Ottomanism and Zionism would have been a matter for the individual conscience. . . . Karasu (in his own words) had "to reconcile his duty as a Turkish patriot with that of a nationalist Jew." ' Part of Karasu's "duty as a Turkish patriot" led to his enriching himself on the provision of food supplies to the Turkish army right through the genocide of the Armenians.
Jews are great people. The greatest Jews always sided with the truth, the Genocide. We do, however understand the strategic importance of Turkey for the state of Israel in the turbulent middle east, but as Ariel, my Israeli friend put it, Israel is no fool, and they know that this one sided love relationship will someday come to an end, and as such, contingency plans are being prepared for that day.
Long live Armenia, long live Israel.
To "Genocide denial"
Regarding Ahmadinejad, just a week ago, Mossad came up with the surprise of the century.
They found diaries of Ahmadinejads Jewish grandmother, who wrote in her diary " how proud she was that her grandson had his Bar Mitzvah, and how beautiful he sang, and how she shed happy tears etc etc. So, sorry my friend, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is Jewish. I have not seen an Armenian going through a Bar Mitzvah.....yet. But hey, I still love Israel and all Jews worldwide.
Murat, Ali, Selcuk.
I for one, do not hate Turks. Have absolutely nothing against the Turkish people. Never had, never will.
I don't want any monetary compensation.
I don't care much about lost land.
All I want is a simple sincere apology for the 1915 Genocide, and thats from the Turkish government.
Hypothetically speaking..if P.M. Erdogan calls me and tells me that the Turkish government accepts the responsibility for the 1915 Genocide, then my issues with the Turkish government is done with. That way, I can finally say a prayer and let the souls of my 177 Bairakdarian slain relatives to rest, alongside the rest of the slain 1.5 million of my people.
I don't want one Kurus or one Lira from the Turkish government nor the people.
And once again, nothing against you three nor the 60 million Turks in Turkey.
I wish you all well.
Vrej Bairakdarian
Yes, David. But let's not forget the other side to the other side of the story -- anti-Armenian pogroms in pretty much every city within Azerbaijan during that time. The Baku-Kirovabad-Sumgait genocide?
I think there were two constitutional groups. The first did contain a hidden Jew. It is the second consisting of the Young Turks, which I do believe did not have any hidden Jews.
To change the subject, I believe that Caleb Frank Gates, belongs in your hall of the righteous for saving hundreds and thousands of Armenian lives. He went to Turkey to teach the Christians and during his long life, if you read his autobiography, at great DANGER to his life, he had the courage and goodness and religious faith to save thousands of Armenians in Harput during the massacres and later in Constantinople, to speak on their behalf; and he headed the Near East Relief in Constantinople. I do hope your Genocide Museum will remember the righteous missionaries who saved more than one Armenian life. He was a great man and good person. I will write to the museum asking that he be remembered.
Murat, the Turkish version is totally wrong. Although there were a few Armenian instigators, the majority of Armenians did not pose any threat. Morgenthau suggested the Turks arrest the few Armenian instigators; instead the Armenians were massacred. The genocide was thoroughly unjustified according to Caleb Gates' biography. I read this book and found out what happened; I have been listening to the Turkish version from the preent Turkish govt. and from posters like you. I had to read the book to find out what really happened. I am surprised more Armenians don't speak out to you to tell you the truth. I am an American Jew. Unfortunately, Turkey is not having people speak up to them and tell them the Armenian people never were a threat. There was an evil parnoid sultan, and maybe jealousy among Turks of the Armenians who were very successful.
Murat, the Armenian genocide was unjustified. They were no threat to the Ottoman Empire. What I have been reading by posters, even in Haaretz, that the Jews during the Holocaust were not a threat, but the Armenians took up arms is FALSE and the situation was different; au contraire, it may be entirely similar. The Holocaust and Armenian genocide both killed innocent people out of prejudice; both of them were no threat. I really don't trust all posters, since many may be Turkish genocide deniers using false names or people who lived in Turkey who were taught a false historical account of the Armenian genocide. The Turkish govt. has been teaching them lies about Armenia and still speaks the same lies.
Umm, how exactly was it a "success?" What was so great about his visit to the eastern US, what did it accomplish exactly? Judging from what was summarized in a single sentence regarding the "ARF's current strategy" there isn't anything to be excited about, and his explanation is far from acceptable for anyone opposed to the protocols.
I did see Shimon Peres in Turkey in Hurriyet?; tensions were high because of the genocide bill. The AKP told him Armenians were a threat to the Ottoman Empire and ready to rebel; and unfortunately, he agreed. Did he want to keep ties with Turkey at any cost, or did he actually believe that? Well, in truth, a lot of Turkish people did believe the Armenian people were armed and a threat, and this may have led to the massacres. But according to the missionary there at the time, this was not true. In one story he relates, he says he took any guns he could find from the Armenians and delivered them to the Turkish gendarme, who stopped an attack on them; and the missionary said, he did not believe the extent the Turks thought the Armenians were armed to harm them, which he said was a total untruth, the lie Turkey speaks today. Too bad I didn't read this book sooner, I could have posted a reply on Haaretz defending the Armenians.
I have a question for readers:
Has Serge Sargsian or any Armenian president prior to him, ever done anything *significant* to advance the issue of the Armenian genocide? (The answer is NO. Therefore, it is dishonest of Sargsian to write what he wrote about the joint commission: "consequences of the genocide should be the goal of the sub-commission’s work").
Sargsian hasn't even the slightest idea what the "consequences of the genocide" are. Have you ever heard him discuss reparations as one of the consequences of the genocide? No. Destruction or seizure of property, money, bank accounts, land, churches etc.? No.
This is a topic that I am amazed that the Armenian American press has never gotten into - namely, to what extent is the Genocide part of the foreign policy of the Republic of Armenia.
Please listen because I am going to make a charge here now. I claim that the Armenian Weekly has never truly examined this issue. NEVER. In other words, the most elementary question of whether the Armenian government has ever truly, in actual practice, to any appreciable degree, had the greatest calamity in Armenian history (the Genocide) on its agenda has never been discussed by the Armenian Weekly or any other Armenian American paper to any appreciable degree.
Now, maybe you can point to one or two instances - maybe a MENTION or two - in the years since independence (1991) but aside from that, nothing. The media has never asked and answered this question. The media has simple assumed that the Armenian government is quite sincere but that it has not gotten around to doing much about it.
The Armenian American media has really let down on this most elementary of points. You know, it is not enough for the Armenian government to simply SAY that Genocide is part of its agenda. Why has our media never talked about this? Why hasn't there been an editorial telling Sargsian to put his money where his mouth is? Where, may I ask, IS the Genocide on Armenia's agenda? I see nothing. Please don't point to an April 24 March in Yerevan. That is not a POLICY. Neither is having some historian from Armenia attend a genocide conference in Timbuktu. Neither is inviting a foreign dignitary to the genocide memorial. Neither is simply mentioning the G word. That is NOT a POLICY. Policy is a PLAN and ACTION on that plan.
I charge the Armenian American media with reckless neglect.
I agree with all of the comments above. You people make very good points indeed. The so called turkish government is dead set against the Genocide word ever being used let alone looking into it without politically maneuvering, pressing and making a mockery of the so called turkish derived biased commission. It is all Politick an nothin else. The turks will make sure the Genocide is blatantly denied one more time and how in the world a DENIALIST government can have any say in the matter? I would like to ask Sergik that? Why in the world he can let a DENIALIST government to re-do a commission when an unbiased and truthfully historical and ethical commission has been looking into this and doing their homework for more than 30 years now? How could Sergik let a DENIALIST government walk all over the respectful historical commission and instead work with a belligerent backward killer of a government such as turkey? He is just B.S.ing and that is all. Who are you kidding Sergik? Wake up and smell the coffee, we are not children and we were not born yesterday. Serge Sarkisyan is simply letting the major three countries of world to dictate him as they please and walk all over Armenia and letting turkey once more get away with murder.
Thank you Harut for your good insights. Indeed Armenian Americans should have loudly and screamingly protested against Erdogun in Washington for his denialist outbirsts (five times) in regards to the Armenian Genocide. I don't know why we are sleeping? We were all outraged when Serge's arm was twisted by US/Russia/France, pushing Armenia to sign the unjustified protocols; then why didn't our leaders in the US organized such a protest; however short notice: but indeed it was crucial and it should have been done.
I also agree with you Harut jan that Obama shouldn't have received the Genocide denialist Erdogun with open arms. Would Obama received Sudan's president with open arms after he committed Darfur's Genocide? No never, then he should not have received Erdogun either!
All I could say is that ANCA is trying hard and working dilligently for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide in the U.S.
Garen, thanks for this wonderful article. Keep up the great work, not the least of which is keeping a sleepy community abreast of its failings and in this case, a success. Kudos to Krekorian.
To: Genocide denial.
I just read an article about Mahmoud Ahmadinjeds ancestry. Not Armenian, I believe the article mentions either Mossad or Shin Bet, that letters discovered suggest Ahmadinejd had a Jewish grandmother, who happened to be present at his Bar Mitzvah, and she wrote that Ahmdinejds singing voice was beautiful(singing during the Bar Mitzvah ceremony).
In any case, for me, Hitlers(Jewish father), Ataturks(Albanian), Sultan Hamids(Armenian mother), Abdullah Guls(a Turkish think tank suggested that President Gul, beyond any doubt and almost 99.99% accuracy, has Armenian ancestry) , or a few Young Turks of Jewish ancestry, DOES NOT in any way take the blame from(decriminalize) the current day Turkish republic.
We blame the Jews, heck, Armenians and Jews intermarry MORE than any other peoples, for absolutely no reason. recent estimates put Jewish-Armenian offsprings about 100,000-125,000, now that, relatively speaking, is a huge number for two small peoples. Who owned the Ottoman Empire, the Jews? Conspiracies? Come on guys, most of our leaders, government and/or party have either Jewish mothers, wives, husbands, or great mothers/fathers.
The problem we have today is Confusion. We don't know who to blame for the Genocide. The greatest minds of Jews and Zionists helped the Armenian cause in some way or shape. Does Morgenthau, Werfel, Weisel, lieberman, Boxer, Schiff ring any bells?
I don't understand why we like to antagonize world Jewery. What is the logic behind it?
Turks are way ahead of us in diplomacy and politics.
Erdogan slammed Shimon Perez so hard that I thought the poor old man would cry. Perez's face took every imaginable color in existence today...but then, they turned around and started kissing Israeli, you know what. And us? Instead of using our 100K mixed Armenian-Jews for our benefit, we go out and start bashing the Jew, and then wonder "why" Israel does not support our causes.
And, oh before I forget, Yep, I have a Jewish mother, who herself escaped the Holocaust, and as for my fathers relatives, you guessed it right, my grand father was the Only survivor in his immediate family, but I consider myself a very very very proud Armenian.
God bless Armenia and Artsakh.
Armenian Weekly. Kindly allow my opinion to be posted.
Congrats to Mr. Krekorian, you make us all proud and you're a credit to all of us in the east coast, west coast to the Armenian Americans. I also echo the heartfelt sentiments by Sevag above.
Shenorhavor Nor Dari yev Sourp Dsenount!
I also have thought that like israel, we should have our youth do a sort of tour of military duty in Armenia and Karabagh. That would be fantastic! I'm sure many would go from all over the world. Further, lets get this all straight: The Turks understand only one thing and that is the big stick. They kiss the ass of anyone who is powerful and slaughter all others for gain. That is what they have done for a thousand years. They will never change. Let us not expect the Turks to change. We must change. Get rid of the servant/slave mentality. We are slaves to no one especialy garbage like Turks. And most importantly unite as a peoples. One vision. One goal. Divided we fall couldn't be any truer and the very people who crave our destruction know this well. Last, we need the best Armenian minds to come together and form a think tank to resolve/implement and lead us to the best actions needed for success in this ever changing political climate. We have come a long way however it is time to kick it into full throttle before the Armenian oligarghs takes us back 100's years.
Vrej Arkadas,
All you say is fine, but who will apologize for my grandfathers whole family killed off, not marched off in Bitlis or my grandmothers whole family and town ethnically cleansed from Crete? Not that I have or had any such demands, but if I were to, who would be apologizing? Who will pay for the crimes your revolutionaries committed against a whole nation, just like the CUP leaders who were hunted down like animals? I just wanted to know.
Mr. Khachatourian, all discussions on "policy" and "approaches" are wonderful and I obviously encourage them -- but they are irrelevant and distracting from the real issue:
Armenian policy has not been run by national or state interests for awhile -- it has been run according to the financial and power needs of the ruling elite. Take the huge chunk of Armenia's industry sold to Russia by Kocharian at below market prices. Or, take Serge Sarkisian's pursuit of external legitimacy via "protocols."
He'll do what they want him to do -- as long as they don't challenge his authority.
People like you who should know better are distracting us from the real conversation we should be having. Serge would love for us to talk about "approaches" as if Armenia is a normal country and can have these normal conversations. It brings the issue down to a simple disagreement over policy -- a conversation he is much willing to have over the other one.
Chris,
At this point, merely showing up is considered a success for Mr. Rustamyan and the rest of the ARF in Armenia.
You seem to be stuck in an alternate reality. Overdose of self-propaganda does that. Here is the reality: Armenians took up arms and attacked their own state when it was in a state fo war. They were fielding regular troops, had generals, arms depots all over the place, staged terrorist attacks and openly joined forces with Russians to create a Greater Armenian on lands where they were minority. This is newspaper stuff. You think we learn all this from books? We lived there, our grandparents died there. How dare you compare this to Jews in WWII? How can you know so little and then lecture others about facts? When all face the facts, then there may be hope for real reconciliation. I am doubtful myself.
The ARF rings hollow when it says "It would press for regime change if the protocols are ratified"
The party finds itself in a Catch-22. Either fight the system that gives it succour or go out on a limb and flex its non-existent muscles. A loss either way...
Murat: Go away, we don't need the typical turkish talking points here, heard it enough already.
Greg: Two things, first, I am not sure where you are getting the number of Armenian-Jewish offspring from, can you please provide some kind of source? Second, reason israel is close with turkey is due to geopolitics, not because they like turks any more or less than Armenians. Fact is, in international affairs there are no friends just interests.
And many of our leaders are not of mixed Jewish ancestry, never were and never have been, so let us please stay away from making fanciful comments.
I just wanted to point out that I thought this was a well-written, witty article overall. It's great reading your opinion pieces again, doc.
As far as Jews are concerned, the Genocide did indeed happen. All the years that we armed and trained Turkey, amounted to nothing...no matter how we help them, they come around and stab us on the back. Because we support Turkey, does not in any way diminish the reality and the importance of the Genocide. Sooner or later, these marauding Islamic Turks will come around and betray us. Remember how Ergogan tried to betrayed our president? We don't forget, but we are a very patient people, we wait and act with prudance and justice.
To Turks: You continue your pan-Islamic policy, and we will turn our backs on you. Either Islamic fundamentalism or Israel. The choice is yours.
To Armenians: We know the Truth, Turks committed the Genocide, plain and simple.
Kahan Eli
You should all pick up and read Dr. Robert Melson's book, Revolution & Genocide. Therein, you will find a scholarly and very well researched study on the similarities of the Armenian genocide and the Jewish holocaust. No matter what anyone says, they are brother and sister. The CUP leaders of the bankrupt Ottoman empire turned on a group of its own citizens...while ignoring all the other minorities...and plotted to decimate them, steal their property, their businesses, their wealth, etc. and handed it over to their own supporters. At that time, Armenians were 20 - 25% of the Anatolian population, not unlike the position Kurds occupy today, and some of them decided to fight back in self-defense AFTER the Ottoman govt entered WWI with its imperial army. It was fighting wars on several fronts that doomed the Ottoman Empire, not the Armenians. And, it was a group of nutcases from Salonika who planned the largest ethnic cleansing on the planet at the time, not the imams of Konya who actually refused to cooperate in the crime.
Given the current role of the ARF to play opposition party, success is being visible in the public(especially in the diaspora)on current issues...i.e the protocols.
I believe that if the ARF is going to be successful in this role(and Ibelieve they can) they need to
understand the subtlties between national unity and value added opposition. Sometimes opposition
between political parties and governments can deprive a nation of unity at a critical time. Of course, a loyal opposition can mature the democratization of a young republic like Armenia, but only if they have a handle on how to add value to the Republic. No one is interested in a repeat of the days when the political parties(Ramgavar,Hunchakand Dashnak) endlessly attacked each other leaving the Armenian community to choose sides or not particiapte. That era was in the diaspora and today's
issues involve.thankfully, the homeland aswell as the diaspora. I hope tha
The term "loyal opposition" refers to loyal to the nation and political system of government and
opposition to the sitting government. We surely are in need of an opposition process to address
the most pressing need of the nation.... the continued advanceof democracy in Armenia. My hope is that the ARF continues to articulate how it intends to address these vital needs of the Armenian people. A true "populist" party would be a timely addition to the Armenian political scene.
Dear Ken, you speak only the truth. As a nation we must implement certain priorities. Number one, the corruption and the oligarchic government must be put away in Armenia. Armenia does not need Serge's corrupted government who acts for their sole interests. What Armenia needs is a new government who will think first for their people as well as for the safety of their sovereignty. Today's government for instance pockets the millions of dollars that comes in the country from the Diaspora and gives very little if any to the vast majority of the people in Armenia who are not able to make ends meet, let alone be able to send their intelligent children to universities. Their fathers have to go to Russia and Turkey to feed their families. This is absurd. What Armenia needs is to educate the the people and the newer generation in the Republic, so that they'll be aware what is happening to them. They need to know the dangers that are ahead of them if and when the protocols are signed. The people needs a newer, a more patriotic government who thinks for the security of their lands and also for them. The oligarchic government is stealing their fruits and this is unacceptable. Armenians in the Homeland and abroad must work in a united front and as quickly as possible; otherwise we may lose the existence of both our lands. What we need is a newer patriotic government in Armenia and as soon as possible.
AR
Go to CIA website.
Peoples
Armenians
Section ARcz8UY5
Article 299, paragraph 33.
You need to have access passcode for it.
It clearly shows a number of 150,000 mixed Armenian Jewish offsprings.
I had to trim the number to leave out any inconsistancies.
Mr. Erdogan is an Islamist, he is taking the country 100 years back by feeding hate for Armenians and Kurds. European Turkey needs European understanding not Islamist regime that isolates Armenia, US, Israel and downgrades its own people the Kurds (not PKK).
Armenia agreed to form a "commision" without any pre condition that will not take us anywhere, they should have eliminated the article 301 then set up "commision" because no progressive people can participate or comment about the reality of Armenian Genocide from Turkey. People like Elif Shafak, Orhan Pamuk, Hrant Dink and many more have been prosecuted, threatened and assasinated. Get rid of 301 and then Serj is right.
I largely agree with you Karekin but the Assyrians and Pontian Greeks were almost annihilated as well.
If, as some above claim, land in Turkey can never be obtained by Armenians because "no one will go there" or "Turks and Kurds already live there", then how did Armenians cleanse Artsakh? How did they cleanse the vast areas outside Artsakh, including Lachin? And how did they cleanse Armenia itself? No Azeris live there now.
The standard retort of the"we can never ever get land back from Turkey" crowd is that Turkey is bigger and more powerful than Azerbaijan. That may be true, but it certainly does not mean never-ever-no-way. Each case is a bit different.
The crowd that says "no land demands from Turkey can ever be made" is the same crowd that said "Armenia can't beat Azerbaijan - it (and Artsakh) can never win." Guess what? Armenians won.
As to the occupied territories and Artsakh itself, one could just as easily ask the nay-sayers, "Why don't YOU move to Artsakh and if you're not willing to there then no Armenian anywhere should ask for Artsakh."
The naysayer crowd appears to me to be intellectually incapable of conceptualizing future possibilites and opportunities. Their thing is to go around like an 8 year old kid poking sticks into other Armenians and getting their jollies that way. They are indeed children.
Abris, Artemis. All realities start with a vision, a goal, an ideal. Who was predicting the fall of the Soviet Union and the establishment of the Republic of Armenia.We should never forsake our goals for Western Armenia.Our grandparents were not simply murdered, but their possessions were confiscated and illegally redistributed. In addition,the Armenian people were expelled from their historical homeland of 3000 years. When we push for genocide "recognition" to honor our grandparents and the future, we must also remember the other two implication of the genocide besides the murder of our nation.... loss of property and an indigenous presence in Anatolia.
Why should we deny our history? The end of theArmenian presence in eastern Anatolia was a crime
and is an integral part of recognition.
Indeed, it's a rare phenomenon to see an Armenian genius married to another Armenian genius. This is the best demonstration of the glory of the Lebanese Armenian community which is no more.
Being in the 21st century, the age of technology, any videos available to share the triumph?
To Eli Kahan,
Did you know that during WWI the turks decided to "relocate" the Jews of palastine in a similar manner as they did the Armenians? The German general staff in turkey stopped the turks from doing so. The man who ran auschwitz was a german army member of a turkish organization called the "special organization" that is equivalent of the mobile death squads of the SS. He, without a doubt, witnessed the murders of Armenian men women and children. Hitlers most importnat adviser and confidant before the Munich putsch was a diplomat in eastern turkey and witnessed the Armenian genocide. He of course would discuss what happened to the Armenians with Hitler. The secret cables he sent back to his embassy and to Berlin show that Armenians were not involved in a revolution with the turkish state and that the intention of the turkish authorities was to murder the Armenian nation and inherit the wealth of the Armenian nation. The word genocide was not invented yet but the phrase he used over and over again as did his german and austrian colleagues in their secret cables to their foreign ministries was 'race extermination'.
Tell me Eli, if an unrepentant genocide denying Germany bordered Israel, occupied 90% of Israel, took the bulk of Jewish wealth and cultural artifacts, bulldozed 6th century Jewish temples as late as 3 years ago, spends multi millions to make sure anything a Jew would want around the world be sqaushed, how would you take that? Oh well, lets have a historical commission to figure out what really happened during world war II? Let's have a document saying we recognize the de facto german Israeli border when there is a legal document that shows Germany illegally occupies 40,000 square miles of Israel? What kind of a man would want to sit down with neo nazis and "talk" ? If you ask me that man is not much of a man. More like a quisling, a pansy and a traitor.
Anyone citing the CIA for numbers of Armenian-Jews is completely brainwashed. Many Jews, especially those from Iran, cited Armenian heritage in Iran in order to avoid persecution, even though they were pure Jewish (hence, the changing of names, and present day -ian surnames in Jewish families of Iran)
Citing 100,000-150,000 Armenian Jews would mean that almost 1% of All Armenians have Jewish ancestry, However, only about 3,000 Jews live in present day Armenia and most Armenian-Jews are ethnic Jews that lived in Soviet Armenia, not those that married Armenians. Of course, there was some intermarriage, and it is to be expected, as Jews and Armenians had a diaspora in many of the same countries: Iran, Russia, to name a few, however, the numbers reported are out of this world.
It is important to elucidate the fatal logical flaws of those who wise to deny real justice to the Armenian people whether they be tukrish or Armenian or whatever. Some quislings wish by force of flawed argument that we only pursue genocide recognition. Recognition, restitution, reparations and restoration all go hand in hand. This why the so called turks fight tooth and nail against recognition because all the other three R’s come along for the ride. We have many allies within Anatolia and outside Anatolia of different ethnicities and faiths. Everyone has suffered at the hands of sunni turkish plurality. We have all suffered at the hands of certain sunni kurdish tribes who worked in 1908, 1915,1925, 1930 and 1938 against Armenian, kurdish and Alevi Zaza interests and continue to work for their sunni turkish masters.There are good people of Anatolian ancestry in turkey and outside, no doubt about it. Of hand I would say ( and having conversations in turkish with turks without them knowing I was Armenian) that 1/3 of turks would like to go to watertown or glendale and butcher as many Armenian women and children as possible, 1/3 are clueless as to what an Armenian is ( lately this has been changing due to all the news) and the last 1/3 are completely in our corner. And honestly, the last third would probably make better neighbors than some quislings amongst our population. The ones who are here are not here to understand but to monitor and squash anyone who writes about real justice for the Armenian people. They are scared of what may come down the pike. They know all to well that the Treaty of Sevres is the only legitimate binding treaty between Armenia and turkey. All other treaties between Armenia and turkey are void ab initio. They know very well when the court of public opinion is completely on our side, we will then pursue Hye Tahd in the international court of justice on various fronts. By the end of the day they will be worse off than south africa during apartheid and north korea put together. Financial markets will be completely closed off to them and any funds they have in foreign banks will be confiscated and trade between turkey and the world would cease until they follow thru with the turn over of lands they illegally occupy in eastern turkey, pay for the damages to all cultural treasures they have destroyed, pay for all development costs for Armenians to return to Western Armenia and pay for their citizens to settle in central anatolia. It will happen if you want it. For those who think it is crazy go on back to stuffing your faces with bak-lay-vah, and dont try to diminish the aspirations of Hye Tahd. Afterall, wasn’t the soviet union invincible and Armenia would never in our lifetime be independent? How soon we forget. The impossible is possible. Never forget that
It's heartening to hear people like Artemis and Stepan. I now only hope that the damage Sargsyan has made on several fronts --relations with Turkey, with the Diaspora and the rifts he has created within the Diaspora-- can be healed without making the divisions too deep and long-lasting. We have had enough polarization in the Diaspora and vis-à-vis our relations with Armenia over the last century as to undergo more of that, and with more virulence.
More pressure should be put on Pres. Obama & the State Dept. on the recognition of this long overdue Armenian Genocide otherwise petitions should be organized to all Armenian people in the USA to be sent to the President & the State Dept. The Turk will never change unless the world countries put pressure on them. The ''Deeds of the Turks'' that goes back to BC to show all the atrocities they have committed down thru the centuries, not counting the millions that have been forcibly converted to the Moslem Religion. Also Jews are also responsible for the non passage of the Armenian Genocide whom are under the payroll of the Turkish Government. Armenians must change their course of action otherwise we are not heading in the right direction. S. T. Dulgarian
Hye, we have a Covenant from those slaughtered, raped, kidnapped and more... a Covenant passed to those who survived the Turkish Genocide of the Armenia nation... Even further, we have a Covenant from our Survivors - our parents, grand parents and great grand parents who pass this Covenant to our generations today, and for as long as it takes... We can never forget the Genocide of our people.
The Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation shall be recognized by the civilized leaderships of the civilized nations and thus, the cycle of Genocides, the slaughter of innocents shall be ended - killing of humans by other humans is the most criminal of vile acts by despots to gain their own goals.
In 1918 Theodore Roosevelt said "the Armenian massacres was the greatest crime of the war (WWI)
and failure to act against Turkey IS TO CONDONE IT."
Hence when the U.S. President fails to act to pursue Turkish governments who seek - even into today to 'eliminate' the existence of Armenians. Theodore Roosevelt saw the truths then. Our president is condoning the Genocide actions of the Turks... Thus his inaction against the Turk is also condoning all Genocides - even into the 21st century - the Darfurians, sadly. Politics win out over Morality. Sadly.
Manooshag
Yes, Joseph, that is very true.
I think the fact that people like Ajemian and Avo still haven't answered my question regarding what Armenia's policy should be in attempting to get back Western Armenia only validates what I said in my very first post: they are dreamers, irredentists sitting somewhere comfortable, assuming that just as long as they keep this "dream" alive, smarter, stronger, more committed Armenians will one day achieve their dream for them.
The fact that no political force, organization, (or even a serious intellectual adventure) has ever attempted to map out a plan, policy, or approach to getting back Western Armenia only proves how hollow these people are. And, at the very least, the "wait for the right moment" mentality only implies a realist policy of doing nothing until a REAL opportunity arises -- much in the same way we behaved during Kilikia, during World War I, and during the Kharabagh movement.
Aside from ideological inconsistensies (like why should we only ask for parts of Historic Armenia alotted to us under Sevres and not Kilikia, parts of north-western Iran, and the outer most Armenian provinces of the Empire, despite the fact that we have "historical rights" to them), Mr. Amejian and his clever attempt at labeling us weak have failed to offer any solutions as to how we're going to overcome the military obstacle.
No state's boundaries have ever been readjusted without a military component -- a component that we do not have, and a component that never offers us a guarantee that Turkish troops wont be occupying Yerevan and slaughtering what remains of our people (don't tell me the Russian will protect us like they did last time). I'm sorry if you think this sounds defeatist but who in their right mind thinks its a smart idea to be childishly macho with the second most powerful army in NATO (oh that's right...what are we going to do about NATO again?) As an Armenian leader, I wouldn't be willing to roll the dice on the lives of 3 million Armenians just so I can give our never-supportive-when-it-matters-Diaspora a sense of historicity.
The scenarios you're imagining with the Kurds, disguntled Turks, or whatever other misconceptions you have about Turks in Van today are all fantastic geopolitical situations that no responsible Armenian politician should ever base the future lives of Armenian children on.
This approach is unrealistic and sounds self-serving. Unity??? What is unity? What the ARF advocates or what the Armenian government does? If the ARF is to serve the nation as a "populist"or loyal opposition party, it must know when opposing serves the interests of the nation and when opposing creates disunity. This is a difficult role they have chosen. Our current government in Armenia obviously has a great to learn about listening to the pulse of a complex nation( the Republic and the diaspora). In many ways, the ARF well qualified to serve in this capacity. They were born
of Armenia and have significantlyserved the diaspora. But if the public discussions are dominated by the Armenian government's viewverses the ARF position,then the Turks will continue exploit us.
I understand the position the government has put all opposing views, but we all need to put our nations interests first. If the ARF wants to see the protocols defeated, there may have a willing lead party in Turkey; as they continue to set a hard(and contradicting) line with the Karabagh demand. There intentions are not sincere based on their post-protocol signing comments. Not to mention Erdogan's latest insult with his comments on the Genocide. Turkey is doing a great job in
leading the way in delaying or ignoring the protocols. Let them lead!!!!
How can we be unified if we publically discuss suing and regime changes. There are other
processes to address these issues.I agree with Ken.This is a time for unity. Our core issues are with the Turkish government.
Brandeis University, has a page devoted to Armenian Adoption regularities in their investigative journalism deparment. Most of these publications are from Armenia.
http://www.brandeis.edu/investigate/gender/adoption/armenia.html
I agree with Henry Doumanian that trying to get back Western Armenia would amount to a suicidal adventure for Armenia and the Armenian nation. Or not. It's so unfeasible at the moment that it wouldn't even take off. It is true that we ought to focus our efforts on strengthening the current territory of Armenia and Artsakh.
What you do not do is to give up your rights on principle just because the reality is adverse. It is one thing to acknowledge political realities and it is quite a different thing to renounce truth and one's own rights, even in the face of overwhelming adversity. By the same token, we ought to give up our campaign to get recognition for the Genocide. Turkey is unlikely to acknowledge it, even after the Armenian government has given up all demands, all preconditions, renounced to the lost territories of Western Armenia. Yet these territories were stolen from us. It is a matter of debate where you draw the line on the map, but the territories granted by the Sevres Treaty legally belonged to Armenia and that ought to be binding by international law. It is not respecting international law that the Turks got them.
In other words, truth is truth and you do not give it up. Theoretically, anyone can profer all kinds of lies under torture but confession under torture does not count. Yes, the torture has power over you, yes, you are saying what the torturer wants to hear but no, that's not true.
While everybody is free to believe and pursue whatever he wants, my demands from Turkey do not stop at Genocide recognition. There have to be reparations. Moreover, it is not only a moral demand. Never forget that we have next door an unpunished and unrepentant state that exterminated us and came close to doing the same with the population of modern Armenia in 1919-1921. This state is now imposing new demands for Armenia to withdraw from Artsakh before they ratify these protocols which are already the fulfillment of pretty much what I understand you advocate, so the lesson for me is that Turkey will never give up until they open contiguity with Azerbaijan and unify both halves of the Turkic world. It's in their natural interest, come think of it. Hence, Turkey is naturally Armenia's enemy, even if you omit the Genocide recognition, the Western Armenia territories and all other demands from the equation. The Turkish state does not want to seriously negotiate with Armenia, not in the long term, in the long term they would want us out of their way: do not confuse it here with Turkish individuals, who may be good or bad, nice or not, friendly or not, it's irrelevant, as irrelevant as for Chileans and Bolivians to be friendly yet Chile and Bolivia, both Latin American countries, both Spanish-speaking, majority Catholic and almost identical in ethnic makeup, yet Chile not even for one second has agreed in the last 100 years agreed to grant Bolivia a 2-mile strip of coastal territory from lands Bolivia lost in a war in the late 1800's. Why? Because the Chilean state, as any state in the world, naturally resents giving up territory and it's naturally the enemy of Bolivia, who in the past has proved an unreliable neighbour.
Great states and statesman operate with historical perspectives and not the short-sighted perspective of history as the beginning and end of our lifetime.
No Armenian government has the right to renounce what's ours in the pursuit of its foreign policy, especially not when there is no compelling reason for it. You can have trade and relations with Turkey without giving up your rights. Turkey has not given up the rights of Northern Cyprus in its relations with Greece nor has it withdrawn its claims on some Aegean islands for the sake of that.
The problem in our case is that the Armenian government does not truly represent us, and that's the Diaspora's fault too. We do not have a panArmenian body, so to speak it, that would grant us some voice and vote over issues that are critical to us all, whether Armenian citizens or Diaspora Armenians, who are as much Armenian as any Armenian in the world, whether in Armenia or not, with the added burden that we are striving here in the Diaspora to remain Armenian every day against formidable challenges. So, we need that: a kind of panArmenian parliament that represents us, where you have the voice to express your views on what you expect from Turkey and where I can do the same and every Armenian can. As far as I am concerned, when it comes to Turkey and Armenian relations, as Faulkner said, "the past is still there: it's not even past".
Respectfully yours,
Avo
I think we all agree that the protocols are less than perfect in theircurrent state, but I don't think that all is lost. Turkey is positioning itself to reject the protocols( or maybe just never take action),
based on Erdogan's continued linkage of them with Karabagh.Worst case scenario.... Armenia collaspes under the pressure and concedeson Karabagh(I don't believe this will happen). Even in that
scenario, the people that really count, our heroes in Karabagh will reject this position;forcing continued negotiations. If we manage the public relations properly,Turkey will be viewed as not only
deniers but lacking credibility.At that point , we go back to square one and maybe we get it right the next time. Keep the faith!!!!
Just the fact that the armed Armenian uprising and attempts at creating a Greater Armenia on lands where they were a minority is compared to the fate of Jews n WWII shows how far removed some folks are from reality. Is it really possible that people who have been obsessed with this topic can be so ignorant of the facts? Armeinan uprisings precede WWI! Is this the reason why there is so much concern about the airing of the facts? Is it not ironic that one of the places where one can freely discuss the topic is Turkey where there are regular conferences held and people have opined freely on both sides of the topic?
May I remind dear Mr. Adam Schiff that Armenian Genocide recognition by states and the world public at large does not have a deadline...
As long as-no ,not survivors alive, but the heirs to them are alive,whether grandchildren or grand- grandchildren, it will be pursued until it is accepted not only by U.S. or U.K, but the world community.
Thence it is irrelevant if a few survivors are still living..
Our quest for JUSTICE WILL CONTINUE .it is a legacy that cannot be erased, just by passing away of our dear survivors...
sometimes such phrases are repeated and repeated,leaving the impression that once the last survivor extinguishes,ceases to be then the Recognition for <Justice will not prevail.I beg to differ,Should have said that in the first place..
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
Tell these people,the Turkish American Associations...that similar to Armenia, a country far awaay in Western Europe was occupied for over 600 years by North African moors.Indeed, before I go any further explaining the core of the issue and the comparison ..I remind them that the mentioned moors from North Africa left Architectural marvels in the country in question .Namely Spain España...
However, the natives that is Spaniards led by a Spanish princess, that later proclaimed herself Izabel La Catolica Queen of Spain ,united the Spanish princes, secretly armed themselves xand drove the invadors out...
Indeed Armenians of the ex-Ottoman Empire also had the God given right to get armed..however,this did not work out since frontiers were tightly closed and the few arms that were smuggled in were not sufficient and the Armenian population under the harsh Ottoman rule was strictly guarded not to carry even"Zmeli" paper cutting knives...let alone get armed...
But the comparison is for above Associations to realize that history and facts attached to it are not so easily erased...
Their absurd propaganda that Armenians "stabbed us on the back" is irrelevant.
Witness European History ,especially this above described....
WE may however come to be good neighbours, like it has been shown not only in above two countries ,but many more ,AFTER THESE ISSUES ARE JUSTLY SETLLED
G.P
One more comment to all uneducated people why is it called GENOCIDE because Armenians couldn't fight back from massacre. They were not armed what so ever, plus there was never a war meaning man against a man but instead it against the whole nation includes men, women, children, and elderly! Read the history before any judges this.........besides Greeks, Kurds, Bulgarians, and Jews were killed too!
Murat should be reminded that the issue being aired is not the Armenian Genocide itself. It is the question of how much influence, if any, descendants of Sabbatean Turkish Jews had on the CUP decision to eliminate the Armenians. If he wishes to discuss the Armenian Genocide with his clearly limited means, he should do it elsewhere.
From one Jew to all Turks:
Get over it, the Genocide happened, OK?
Enough already, accept it and come out like men of higher moral authority, otherwise your half baked excuses denying the Genocide amounts to absolute nothing.
Peace
Omid
Hye, Kate, shornagaltiun guh hydnenk,
Words fail me, my relatives whom we lost to the Turkish Genocide of our Armenian nation, resting easier... are still watching, still awaiting... for our Covenant to come to pass... Manooshag
*Members of Parliament in United Kingdom (MP).
There are three parliaments in United Kingdom: in England, Scotland, and Wales.
MPs of Scotland and Wales have recognized the Armenian Genocide, while the English MPs have not yet. Remember, Soon we will enter year 2010!
If you go a bit below the surface in Azerbaijani otherwise hospitable culture you'll find that the country is quite rotten. First of all, there isn't any real democracy, but a despotic president who represses all the opposition forces. But, it is good to be president's friend and pocket the oil money by corruption that the country's public administration is full of. Allegedly, the air force chief Rail Rzayev was murdered in Baku in February 2009 because he became too greedy pocketing more money from aircraft procurement than other guys involved that then got envious and murdered him.
If you ever have a chance to experience how the public administration works in the country you would probably be surprised that almost nothing has changed since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Management culture is ad-hoc day-to-day top-down management. If a minister wants something he can call any day anytime to the guy in administration and ask some simple information. And if the guy doesn't know he calls his subordinates. It is good to remember that many of the Soviet norms are still in use in Azerbaijan. Archaic, I would say.
And how about people and the culture? The country tries hard to be close to Europe, but it does not really fit in with arranged marriages. Yes, as the oil wealth is not distributed equally many families get financial resources from brideprices by selling their daughters to grooms. As a foreigner it is a risky business to go for a date with a woman as it would be messing up with financial arrangements of elder male family members. This family centric lifestyle is also very closed and it is not easy to make friends in Azerbaijan as a foreigner.
As a summary, Azerbaijan is closed and archaic society with uneducated but nationalistic people. This can also be realised by talking to young people who would go immediately to war against Armenia if Ilham Aliyev just asked them to do so.
The future doesn't look bright for the country. Educated people leave the country, relations with Turkey are worsening, relations with Iran are problematic due to large number of Azeris living there. Russia is also a challenge as it supports Armenia. Europe wants to foster European values including human rights, but Azeris don't want to hear criticism against their country and culture. As the country does not have much else but oil and gas and not many friends will the problem bubbles start to burst when the oil reserves wane within 10 years. Maybe then it is time for Aliyev to start the long-waited war against Armenia to gain popularity among people who would otherwise resent the current regime due to decreasing oil profits.
Mr. Dummanian,
You are enjoying the sound of your own voice. I am sorry to say. I don't know of any question in your so called first post. Ask me a question and I'll give you an answer. Bend, twist, add half truths and outright lies about anything I have written is very sad on your part. What you do is very easy. You assume things and give sly insults. You have much to learn from me. And please give up the insulting language, we are all Armenians, no need for it. Just Focus on what is written and present intelligent questions. Don't be a blog terrorist.
Descendant of no one had any influnce in the decision to eliminate the Armenian race since no such decision was taken, and no such elimination did take place as the plentiful descendents of the said race are here and there and everywhere.
In general, given the long history, Turks have had to face many facts regarding their history, some pleasant some not. This topic is only one of them. The problem is facing non existent facts. There are many issues related to the Republic already before addresing Ottoman history, let alone myths.
On the other hand, to have such demands made by people who are clearly in dark about the recent history of their ancestors, their war against the Ottoman Empire and the infighting and killings, just rubs all the wrong way. One should look into a mirror occasionally.
No amount of wishful thinking will re-write history.
Eva, you seem to be totally ignorant of so many facts related to this issue. Armenians were surely armed, and armed well. My grandfather, an officer in the region at the time, chased armed Armenian insurgents around, had battles, witnessed their brutality to Muslims, and even worse to each other when there was a disagreement. Armenians had accumulated enormous weapons caches, they were better armed then Ottoman soldiers, see the countless pictures of fedayees in Armenian books. They were not going fishing. They were able to field regular troops, had military schools, had generals and brutally occpied and killed all Muslims, including my grandfather's family, in Bitlis, Mus, Van etc. They did this while Ottomans were engaged in battles for their very existence in multiple fronts. They gave keys of Ottoman cities to Russian generals. This is newspaper stuff, all told in your Armenian books too. How can anyone expect an apology? Who will apologize for my ancestors - if I needed one? So have a little respect for facts.
Historians don't give serious consideration to the conspiracy theory; however, read the posters who pooh pooh books and historical works. There is a lack of education or information available to people living under totalitarian societies which may lead to a vacuum to be filled by conspiracy theories.
I think we are questioning the conspiracy theory of history which attributes too much power to a group, i.e. the Jews, and attributes them with the cause of all the evil in the world. The Protocals of Zion was created by the Czar to demonize the Jews and blame them for all the problems and is still followed by Ahmadinejad in Iran and his antisemitic mentor. Not all Iranians are antisemitic; however, he is. Neither does Putin believe in the Protocals today.
Today the internet spreads a lot of conspiracy theories to the "fringe" group; it is an alternative to history as taught in schools or researched by historicans. A lot of these conspiracy theories are part of apocalytic prophesies. They include not only Jack Manuelian's theory about WWIII with Iran coming in 2012; they include those about 9/11, etc. The question is how many people read and how many people believe these conspiracy theories of history; how scientific or realistic are they. Do people have to examine the reality and facts closer to see the reality, not conspiracy. Are there a lack of facts available? Is there, for instance, a lack of closure about the Armenian genocide, because of Turkey's policy of not allowing free discussion, or lack of taking responsibility for it, that creates a need to blame the Jews, or a desire to blame the Jews to bring closure and not accept responsibility for the Turkish people's crimes.
A psychologist wrote a book about the conspiracy theories on the internet. There are really a lot of them, if you believe in science fiction and fiction like theories which a lot of people seem to gather together in groups and follow on the internet.
It is of course a disgrace that article 301 exists at all in a democratic country. On the other hand, probably too much is being made of it. Similar laws protecting national or religious symbols and values exist in every country as far as I know. When 301 is gone, there will be something similar in its place, maybe less ambiguous, but the fact is, there will be something. Of course, there will always be nationalists who will use and abuse whatever small leverage they can find in similar laws to silence others.
More imporantly, 301 has not stopped the national discussion, however heated it may be, on this topic. Yes, those who are pushing unpopular or unconventional ideas may be subject to derision and abuse, but the fact is, people opine rather freely, there are many meetings and conferences held every year with many outside experts participating. To my knowledge, no one has been jailed or prosecuted for calling "tehcir" genocide, no one has ever been jailed or punsished solely for this reason.
On the other hand, one could go to jail directly for contradicting Armenian myths in some supposedly free and democratic countries.
What kind of hypocracy is this to push to make it illegal to contradict the Armenian view point while criticising 301?
As to who ordered the genocide of the Armenians, all books, including Morgenthau , I believe, blame the Germans for ordering the genocide. It was not part of a conspiracy theory of the Jews.
I can quote from an old book I have from a family friend who lived in Turkey at the time. He said everyone can write a book, and this is from his book concerning his life in Turkey. "Turkey - Key to the East," by Chester Tobin. He taught at Macalester College in Minnesota and was there to coach the first Turkish Olympic Racing team.
1. "Thus, tragically, the Christian nations' meddling in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire created in the warped mind of Sultan Abdul Hamid II a distrust and hatred of the Armenians."
2. "The First World War broke on a weak and corrupt Ottoman Empire. German ober-officers were everywhere with the Turkish troops. By the spring of 1915 the Russians were pouring their troops through the Caucasus to launch their offensive against the eastern Ottoman front where lived many of the Armenians. The usual war propaganda was pushed over on these unfortunate people by the Russians. They were encouraged to betray their brutal rulers and help in their liberation by their Christian Russian brothers. Weapons of war were provided. Indeed to many Armenians it seemed their only hope. Armenian resistance became a real menace to the Turkish defense. German officers and civilians scattered throughout the Armenian districts. They instigated with Prussian thoroughness the wholesale deportations of the Armenians from near the front. The Armenian massacres, HISTORIANS AGREE, were not an impetuous act of fanatical Moslems bent on exterminating Christians. They were the result of the cold-blooded political policy of a weak Ottoman govt. influenced by the Prussians. It was the Prussians' secret conviction that this was the logical time to eliminate a talented people whose functions in the Empire they intended to take over entirely after military victory had been achieved. This combination of cruel circumstances led to some of the worst crimes committed in the First World War. The Armenians were nearly exterminated." Then the Germans exterminated the Jews in WWII.
The missionary said the Turks were fearful of the Armenians.
This fear and prejudice also led to the murderof the Armenians and crimes against humanity committed. Although there were some Armenian instigators, they could have been arrested by the Turks. Instead the whole Armenian people was massacred. The story the Turks tell about the armed Armenians in revolt is just false; the Turks had fear and prejudice against the Armenians. They massacred an unarmed people due to the influence of the Germans.
There are books written by witnesses as to who ordered the genocide; all I read blame the Germans.
Then I also read the triumphirate was just stupid and susceptible to follow the the Germans, as the Germans were only interested in their own interests, not in Turkey.
The Jewish conspiracy theory that blames the Jews for all the evils in the world, attributes too much power to them, and says they rule the world, is a fiction.
There are the accounts by people who lived there at the time, including Morgenthau, and there are conspiracy theories. One account is fact, the other is fiction. I agree that any historical rendering of events should stick to facts, not fiction. I suppose that is the trouble with Turkey's historical commission; will it be fact or fiction? The facts have been established; will Turkey teach facts or fiction to their people, or let the facts be published in Turkey and around the world without punishment? Will they continue to tinker with our educational system and try to implant their fiction in our educational system. I think this is a serious threat. As long as they censor fact, conspiracy theories might continue as an alternate fiction to historical fact.
Mr. Ajemian,
You should scroll up, I posed these questions numerous times -- you were a late comer into the discussion. I don't understand which part was insulting (confrontational, yes, but not insulting).
I presented intelligent questions...do you mind answering them?
I'm sorry I offended you -- but for someone who is so concerned with being offensive, you should be chastising Avo, and, frankly, you should stop trying to attack your opponents by claiming they are all one and the same person trying to "trick" readers: "but if you are going to throw back handed insults then we will know more about you as men then about where you stand. It’s funny how you guys stand behind pseudonyms. For all the we know karekin, mike and henry is just one guy." That is quite offensive.
Anyway, back to the discussion -- enough with this empty "we are all Armenians" rhetoric -- we KNOW we are all Armenians. I might disagree with some of you but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to think that you have FORGOTTEN who we all are.
Hajoghutsyun.
Murat, I continue to be amazed at the denial mentality. It is an historical fact that the Armenians were an oppressed minority who were treated as second class citizensin the Ottoman Empire; despite their significant contributions to the infrastructure of the empire. The denial mentality lumps all violence into one bucket. There is no doubt that there were someacts of violent retribution commitedby the Armenians. It is silly to think otherwise. Watching your people annihilated for decades(1890, 1894,1909 etc) leads to defensive efforts(which is basically what the revolutionary
groups/fedayees were).Their contributions were to defend a vulnerable population from an empire
with a long history of contempt for this Christian minority. Even with this history, the Armenians supported the Ittihadist reforms cooperated with the government. I am sorry for the loss of anyone
during conflicts and this goes for Turkish civilians that were victims of undisciplined retribution
from Armenians
You must acknowledge,Murat,that there is a significant difference between the loss of civilians
during conflictand the planned extermination of an entire population.WHAT KIND OF A GOVERNMENT INDISCRIMINATELY MURDERS ITS OWN CITIZENS. If the Armenians werea threat
then why were children,womenand older removed,Why werethey not allowed to return after the war. Why are the Ottoman archives full of incriminating premeditation documents. WHY?
It's so ironic because the Turks today would be so much better off distancing themselves from the morallycorrupt Ittihads, accept the fact that this was an attempt to annihilate the Armenians and move on. There is no futurein denial. I have met three kinds of Turks in this regard. One type are filled with nationalistic zeal and then national ego will not allow that this could have happened. Another type are truly ignorant of history and are a product of the Turkish educational revisionist
system. The final group are an off shoot of the secondand have become educated. This group is my hope for Turkey. This group is becoming largerand more influential. Genocide forums in Turkey,apology petition and reconcilation efforts. After education, they are feel the guilt. I feel for them and as Armenians we must reach out to them.
Murat, my friend,I hope that reach this state of knowledge. Ease your anger and frustration
with thte simple truth that there was a Turkish government that attempted to eliminate our people.
All reconciliation must be based on the truth. As Hasan Cemal told a Turkish man in the audience at Harvard, we must open our hearts to learning what happened in1915.
Mr. Dumanian,
I have been fighting the barbarians for the last 30 years in various ways which I wont go into at this time. Our enemies are very sophisticated in their tactics and overall strategy. They use whatever they can to muddy the waters. I must concede that including your name was a mistake. I think the value of these discussions is avoiding the pot shots and come down to a synthesis of ideas that would be of value ultimately to the Armenian nation. In my last post (which was edited) I asked if you had taken any undergraduate or graduate classes in Armenian or Transcaucasian history. I dont think you have. Only because I believe you have your view points based on the here and now outside of the understanding, a deep understanding of Armenian history. Now I know what you are going to think. That my thinking is stuck in history and devoid of understanding of the present realities. Far from it. I must say at this point that your last post did not have a question posed to me. Anyway, in a nutshell this is what I believe( as obvious as some may be I will state them anyway): We are living in the best and worst times of Armenian history. The Armenian state is in a precarious situation. Armenia is a protectorate not an independent state. Russian owns all the infrastructure in Armenia; rail and energy. The oligarchs run the commodities markets as monopolies. The oligarchs(who by the way, have no national pride because of a lack historcial perspective) on their trips to turkey have been salivating at the ideas their turkish hosts have been feeding them on what lucrative deals can be had if they could work together and have the border open. Europe wants more secure gas supplies. At this moment in time and space, unfortunately, we have the protocols. It is my belief that the protocols will make Armenia not only a Russian protectorate but a turkish one as well. In the 19th century Russian imperialist policy was summed up in this quote " an Armenia without Armenians". Nobody cares if we suffered a genocide and 90% of our patrimony has been stolen from us by the turks. We are in the situation we are in precisely because of the genocide and its consequential material losses.
As unfortunate as being economically controlled by Russia is, the turkish equation is one of their being a dominate force by using the economy to destroy Armenian culture, Armenian national imperatives and come to control the policies in Armenia which will alter the ethnic demographics of Armenia making it the last turkish province and destroying Armenia once and for all. We will be dependent on every piece of food coming from turkey. Why I believe these things will be could be explained in another posting if you have the questions.
I believe also we could have energy security, food security, military security and real independence. That is not a pipe dream. It can only happen within the context of soul penetrated understanding of our past. You young Henry must know your ancient patrimony, wherever it is in Greater Armenia and make that part of your consciousness. As much as I have been maligned on this site, the bottom line for me is if you dont know your past you dont know your future.
Never let this one idea leave your mind for even a second when you think about Armenian political subjects, the turks wish to destroy us and they believe nothing will stop them . The question is, Henry, what are you going to do to stop them?
This talk about Jewish conspiracy against the Armenians is a Turkish propaganda. Not only Turks are getting desperate to blame their crime against the Armenians, they are trying to distance Jews from Armenians. Dear Armenians, do not fall for this trap. What Turks are doing is drawing other peoples into the Genocide equation, to lessen their responsibility committing the Genocide.
Any sane Armenian knows that Israeli-Turkish relations are temporary, we are seeing the resurgence of Islamic Turkey, and are well prepared to face the threat from Islamic Turkish republic.
Turks have to come to term with their murderous past. Yes, the Ottomans massacred 1.5 million Armenians, and as Ovid said in his post, it is about time Turks come clean, leave their murderous past behind them and join the world community of civilized countries.
The Genocide was and still is the first mass murder of human beings on the hands of other human beings. We deal with Turks every day, they are all cowards, I assure my Armenian friends that they will never accept their responsibility murdering innocent people. They are quick to betray their friends.
Here is an example. We supported Turkey through thin and thick, but then they turn and when you least suspect, draw their knives and try to kill you. remember Erdogan the Islamist terrorist who tried to shame Israel? That is how Muslim Turks are.
And they want to join the european Union, what a joke.
I rather have 10 million Armenians living in Israel, then one Muslim Turk..aaaargh
In answer to the Association of Turkish American Ass. (ATAA), don't they know that the Genocide of the Armenian People of 1915-1923 is a well documented tragedy. All they have to look into is the Turkish trials after the 1st World War that found Talaat Pasha, Enver Pasha, Jemal Pasha, along with hundreds of other Turks guilty of the crimes they committed on the Armenian Nation which was their elimination and as written by Ambassador Morgenthau and hundreds of Missionaries whom were witness to these atrocities. Also, up to 30 nations around the world have recognized these atrocities as Genocide. The Turkish Government is also using five Jewish Organizations here in the USA to do their dirty work by telling the President, the State Dept. as well as bribing other dignitaries to put this well documented Genocide in limbo. The time has come when the U.S. must pass the Resolution on the Armenian Genocide.
Hey Avo,
You sound like so many other deluded Armenians who still think they ARE ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE while they dream of Western Armenian lands. You people always have an excuse when it comes to making the ROA a place for all Armenians to come and live life in normal, democratic conditions.
People like you are sadly mired in self-deception.
Dear Syva Portoian,
Indeed we are on the threshold of 2010 and with great expectations that areas like England will also join the bandwagon,like Scotland and Wales and acknowledge the Armenian Genocide.Plus of course many more states...for the World Owes Justice to Armenians and their Cause.
G.P.
Henry Dumanian,
Your answer, attacking me after I have given a decent and respectful response to your arrogantly posed question, just shows what kind of a person you are. It speaks for itself. You either read my answer and were frustrated for the lack of irony this time around --I have noticed you do not have a stomach for irony-- so there was nothing there that would warrant attacking me again, or you did not even bother to read it. In any case, you are truly now, in every sense of the word, someone unworthy of engaging in a debate. I put forth an idea, which would guarantee some impact to your ideas --a panArmenian congress or body--, to which you replied still insulting. You have just shown that not only you do not tolerate irony. You are simply incapable of engaging in debating ideas, probably because you have none. This debate has died out a long time ago & I see no further point in whipping a dead horse.
Ranchpar, I honestly had a more humble opinion of my impact on international geopolitics. You seem to be implying that it is thanks to me and people who think like me who are preventing a normal life in Armenia; or, alternatively, you think that it is because of me or people who think like me that Turkey is blockading Armenia; or that droves of Armenians are leaving the homeland. Wow! I didn't know me and people like me had such a huge impact.
You know what? If I were to follow your logic --to call it somehow, for it has anything but logic to it-- then it would be thanks to people like you that Armenia will evolve into a prosperous place, become a fully democratic country and have normal relations with Turkey. I don't think so, "Ranchpar" (you scare many people with that name, you know? The Turks would rout before you if they just heard "Ranchpar" is coming!).
The term "conflict" implies an equal fault from both sides. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not quit sure how one race deciding to exterminate another defenseless race off of their ancestral homeland and then continuing that mass murder through threats, denial economic blockade etc. constitutes a "conflict". Turkey is a criminal state and one should make no mistake. It should be acknowledged as such an treated as such. This article also forgot to mention the biggest Turkish flaw and that is the "master race" mentality that still permeates Turkish society. This mentality is the core of all it's criminal activities ie: It's "right" to deport. It's "right" to murder. It's "right " to lie, steal, violate and oppress it minorities. Last, Turkey will not change from within. Being the ultra opportunist that it is, the only time Turkey will change is when the "opportunity" to come to terms with it criminal past, to be democratic, to respect all it's minorities is greater to do so. This pressure only comes from the outside not from within, when it has no choice but to do it. When the rest of the world unites and says this type of behavior is no longer acceptable that is when Turkey will change.
Dear Rep. Schiff and compatriot Armenians; Erdogan and the existing Turkish government endlessly and shamefully can try to deny the Armenian Genocide; but here below are a great deal of truths from some articles in the New York Times in 1915, and also some telegrams from Ambassador Morgenthau advising the State Dept. here in the U.S.
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocide_Contemporary_Articles
I have previously mentioned in another thread/article that as the daughter of a survivor, my own father was left orphan from the Armenian Genocide, as well as practically all of my family on both ends of my family (on my maternal as well as on my paternal's side), only a handful of them survived. And this is only my own family. Our whole nation were annihilated in an atrocious way, thus as mentioned above it became a heinous crime of the first Genocide of the 20th century. The world did not see such a horrific Genocide for many centuries before that.
Thank you to Mr. Taner Akcam for this article.
As we have seen and observed recently US pressure on Turkey is has been minimal, not only because of national interest or security but unfortunately at this time main obstacles believe to be the Israel lobbies which has further complicated the whole issue.
- The United States of America has always used Turkey for its own psycho-political purposes against the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and now, the USA is trying to use Turkey against Russian Federation and the Islamic Republic of Iran;
- The conflict is between Turkey and Russia, not Turkey and Armenia;
- A more severe and serious conflict is between Kurds and Turks inside the Republic of Turkey.
Well said Stephan..
I completely agree with you and your reasoning.
I hope Murat opens his heart and understands that we all regret and feel pain for those who lost their innocent lives due to this haineous genocide.. I am truly sorry for that.. we all know what that feels....
However, fedayee groups as Stephan stated above were formed to protect the precious lives that still remained on the land.. they were formed to stop the flood of blood and deaths and save those who could be saved. It is absurd to think that ARmenians would have part in fighting back.k.. who can sit back and witness his or her family killed like animals.. if we did not rise and start fighting back then we might as well call ourselves wild animals.. because only animals don't feel and understand.. but then again some animals have and do feel better than those who brought this Genocide upon my people.. the resistance groups have had enough and decided to fight and die like heros..and they did.. May their soul and those innocent who perished live on in lights of our Savior's kingdom...
Murat, I am not blaming you for your feelings and your thoughts but sometimes it is hard to put aside your emotions and look at matters logically.. but you have to; otherwise it will do nothing by hurt you.. facts speak louder than feelings.. we all have feelings and we all want justice for the loved one we lost; however what happened is no fluke, is no fantasy, is not a lie.. it is a fact.. it is the truth.. the sooner we educate people including the 3rd type of Turks like Stephans stated above, the better off we will all be..
God Bless all..
Gayane
These Turkish organizations are correct in claiming Jews in the region suffered numerous deaths, but it was the Turks who did the killing NOT the Armenians. The Jews were killed for similar reasons as the Armenians were --- they were not Muslim! There numbers were far fewer and they weren't concentrated only in that region otherwise they too would have suffered near anniliation as the Armenians.
Although I agree with the bulk of what our Anatolian brother says in the article, there is a pink elephant in the room everyone has ignored. There is a demographic bubble of Turkish youth in the urban centers that are a hybrid kind of Turk. Islamic and ultra nationalist, a kind of hyper-ottoman cadre of the future where european norms will be shed for nationalist-traditionalist ones. They are young and without direction but that will change. Turkey will go from the ataturk quote of 'peace at home, peace abroad' to which way to baku, yerevan, tabriz, kirkuk, batumi and salonika. If you think the ottoman empire was bad, wait till mid century, nothing will stop the blood lust of Turks. There are ways to stop this from happening but Western Civilization/liberal democracy has run out of steam for self preservation.
All this Israel love fest is quite disturbing for me as an Armenian. What's with all the lofty talk by these Zionists and their subservient Armenian lackeys? Let's remember that Israeli Jews are to regional Arabs what Turks are to Armenians. And before we continue bashing Germans let's also remember that at the time in question Jews were in German what they are in America today. Besides having a clear hand in the Turk's genocidal campaign against Armenians during the early part of the 20th century, organized Jewry is the greatest obstacle against our Hai Dat in the early part of the 21st century...
Good article. But you need to post the correct link to CBS if people should be able to comment:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6001717n&tag=mg;mostpopvideo#comments
Taner Akcam is a good sociologist who understands Turkiys Society and Government and Political Parties goal...It is unlikly that AKP , now in power will go to extreme Islam due to certain restrains in legal and military pressure and maybe AKP itself accepted moderate Islam. However, as Taner Akcam mentions in its recommendion some form of retributive and restitution for Kurds...but he did not go to mention these issue on Armenian case.
At last a larger universal view of the Armenian existance and thought....love your presentation
Hi Garen,
A very interesting read.
How come you did not mention anything about our Pagan brothers/sisters (Hetanosner@)
I was expecting you to give these guys a shout to.
Regargs,
V.
My guess that this "60 Minutes" report on Turkey is, at least in part, "payback" by Jewish American groups who are angry that Turkey has recently been striking out at Israel.
It may also be partly an attempt by the US State Department and Neo-cons to send a signal to Turkey not to defy US policies, particularly regarding Israel, Syria, and Iran.
It is quite clear that Jewish American groups, such as the ADL and AJC (both of whom, in effect, deny the Armenian genocide), are much more upset with Turkey than they let on publicly. It cannot be otherwise. These groups are, however, hanging back on the Armenian genocide issue so that they can hold it like a sword over Turkey's head.
By the way, the CBS reporter who reported the 60 Minutes piece , Bob Simon, was once a US foreign service officer (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Simon). He knows exactly what he is doing. Rest assured that neither Mr. Simon nor CBS nor 60 Minutes cares one iota about Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, or anyone else in Turkey. They are all simply using Greeks and Christians to send a larger message to Turkey.
Good ideas presented and it would serve the interests of Armenia and Armenians to bring these 'lost Armenians' back to the fold but who is going to start the process, or rather what organizations? How can we help make this reality? I think that the RA government and maybe some multi-national Armenian org. like the All-Armenia Fund are best equiped, but are they willing and up for the challenge?
They didn't mention the plight of Turkey's other minorities but so much of Turkey's atrocities have been covered up in the past that this was definately a breath of fresh air compared to the decades of carrot waving to the turks.
There is no way the US government or CBS would have allowed this to air unless they are trying to send a message to Turkey using the Greek and Christian minority, which by the way only a hundred years ago was equal in numbers to the muslims living in Asia Minor. What is unfortunate is that the Turkish government and the local radicals will punish the Patriarch and the churches still allowed to operate there will suffer. The Americans and the west will ignore this just like they ignore the Genocides by the Turks of Armenians and Greeks in the last century and once again we will be hung out to dry. How sad it is that peacefull Christians living in muslim countries are treated this way in these modern times we live in.
Good article, enough of Armenian=Christian. I do agree that Christianity is part of Armenian identity but not its essence, Armenian nation existed long before Christianity.
We as a nation should embrace all Armenians regardless of their belief system.
So, should we understand, no homework for Armenian side?
From this article, I gather that the ball is at the Turkish / Armenian /US court.
It is very unusual for an international 'conflict' that one side is completely free of responsibilities; as nothing is black and white in real-life.
And if that was the case, why the Armenian Government signed a protocol with Turkey? Why did Armenia accept some responsibilities, action items for herself for this road?
Mr.Akcam's this article might be reflecting not the democratic will of Armenians, but the view of a certain political fundamentalists in Armenia who does not like normalization of relationship between 2 countries... As Mr.Akcam frequently is hosted by certain Armenian diaspora organizations in USA, it seems to me that he is paying his dues now, to block this roadmap...
He makes very broad and sweeping statements without suppport, generalizations without backup, and with a very judgemental tone, devoid of scientific objectivity.
There are so many holes, it is not worth a complete review. He manages to fill pages here without a single mention of armed Armenian rebellions, attrocities and terroist acts committed by the revolutionaries, their unpunished crimes, their Greater Armenia plans and ambitions still alive today. No mention of Dashnak and Hinchak who carry the real responsibility for the tragedy that Armenians suffered.
He mocks how everything related to this topic is made into a matter of Turkish national security and a false taboo, while right here average Armenians discuss if and when they recover Greater Armenia what to do the with the hords of Muslim majority there! He claims Turks are made paranoid for self serving reasosn alone while his masters have clearly taken position against the protocols because it implies recognition of Turkey's borders amng other things.
He stubbornly ignores how Armenia's reversal of their invasion of Azerbeycan and a postive development there could help reconciliation more than anythign else and AKP or any other government can not possibly go further without a real gain on this fundemental and strategic issue. According to Taner, there is no releationship. Instead his advice is more outside pressure, which is sure way to create a deeper backlash and confirm the worst conspiracy theories afoot.
He seems to be oblivious to the concept and model of a nation state when it comes to Turkey. A model Turks were the last to adopt. A war that they fought against the colonial and imperial powers defined the country, not ethnicity or religion. A complete opposite of Armenia and Greece for example. He studiously ignores how the trauma of the WWI and the Independence War defined the regime and the role of military in it. He ignores the fact that ALL regimes are unique, shaped by their unique path in history and culture. By its very nature every new regime bad-mouths the previous one, so did Ataturk and his friends. They needed to contrast. Turkey today stands as proof that they mostly did right.
What is the responsibility of Armenians in all this? Apparently none.
Yea, really what is next, a ban on church bells?
Please give me a break! What is he talking about that is worth listening in this long, repetitive essay?
Everything is changing, except Mr. Akcam, himself, which he apparently has the same opinions he had 30 years ago.
He seems not to get over his Soviet-strong leftist interpretation of the dynamics in Turkey.
Talk to some different people than the ones in your usual circle Mr Akcam to have a better understanding of Turkey. You fool no one when you voice someone else's opinions.
The US Government should be considered enablers of genocide denial. This is another example of the US Government helping genocides continue. Until it's current policies change it should be viewed as such.
Hye, John, you have shown the Turk as the Turk is , from the Ottomans down to the present day, in all the actions of the Turkish leaderships as well. Are Turks going to admit to their own citizens that they have lied in all their denials of the Armenian Genocide? The only way is for the Turkish government to be replaced as was the Nazi government of Germany after WWII... The current leaderships make agreements/break agreements; make alliances/break alliances, and more. Not many of the civilized nations of the world, today, acts in this errotic behavior. It is as if watching an
immature adult acting as an immature teenager - who has yet to mature and behave as a civilized and dependable reliable adult. Not today, Turkey acts as a spoiled brat, too, a bully. Manooshag
While it would be great for all minorities that have been under the yoke of the Turkish Empire (Ottoman forward) the Assyrians, Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Greeks, Kurds, Sufi's, Balkans, Cypriots Bulgarians, Yedzgis...the list of Turkey's bloody trail is long and their history very dark. Unfortuately even today, much of the world remembers Turkey's past cruelty.
Sometimes speaking about each different groups struggles with the Turkish people and the ultra radical Grey Wolf group is better, then the Turkish Government cannot always say "its the Armenians again talking about all of their Tall Tales of Genocides"
Turkey Ultra radicals were responsible for shooting the last Pope, it is evident they have issues with Christianity and even other Moslem groups that are not of their particular sect (Sunni)
America can pretend that Turkey is their only ally in the Moslem world but the truth be known, Turkey is bought and paid for to the tune of $80 billlion in the last 10 years of US foreign aid.
We pay for the psuedo loyalty. Turkey in turn spoke out against the US invasion of Iraq and wouldn't let our military use land bases from Turkey (former historical Armenia lands)
Turkey wants into the European Union, this is a push back from the European countries that do not want Turkey with all of it's problems and poverty claiming to be "European"
Turkey was not called the "Sick Man of Europe" for nothing!
Mr. Taner Akcam is morally derived and truthfully explains us in detail all the malignant problems that befouls Turkey for what it has been a 100 years, and the fact that it hasn't changed since then.
John, I agree with your analysis and I must add that the rest of the world; meaning the most powerful nations in the world, (U.S., England, Russia, France) must change their ways of playing real polytik in the world for them to gain economically and more power to themselves, but forgetting their stand for morality, righteousness and ethics. If the powerful nations of today truly want peace in the world; then they cannot deny Genocides of the past by being silent and siding with a denyalist government such as Turkey; because it will come to haunt them, proof is today's Sudan's barbarity against the Darfurians and their acts of mimicking Turkey. For Turkey has shown them how to play around and dodge the Armenian Genocide by filling the pockets of U.S.'s congressmen, and forever shutting the mouths of the martyrs and their heirs from gaining even as little as acceptance of their miseries throughout 94 years since the Genocide. The shame lies to the superpowers of today, and not just Turkey or Sudan; but the US, England, Russia, France who cease to act morally and ethically in the world. They are therefore punishing the memory of the martyrs from the Genocide and their heirs; yet rewarding the countries that committed Genocides and continue to deny it, such as Turkey and Sudan.
In my view the most significant and overt act of continuing cultural discrimination is the closing of the seminary and the requirement that the Patriarch be from Turkey( I am not certain if the law reads native or naturalized citizen). Think about this!!! With a dwindling Christian population,no seminary to train new priests and a requirement that future Patriarchs be from Turkey, this is clear
policy eliminate these ancient Christian churches(Armenian, Greek,etc) from Turkish. This is another
example of institutionalized racism towards people that were resident in Anatolia mileniums before the Turks, suffered from massacre and Genocide( Armenian, Greeks, Assyrians, Pontus Greeks) and now with a shadow of its ancient presence..... is subject to continued oppression. Code 301 gets a lot of visibility, but lets not forget the arrogant discrimination towards our faith.
Yes ,the CBS piece had holes,but our energyshould be towards painting this picturefor the U.S., the
E.U.and the rest of the world. It's amazing that this doesn't get more press,but in our secular world. apparently it's tolerated. Our faith is our foundation and an attack on our institutions is an affront
to who we are. Amot!!
Dear Taner,
Thanks for this article containing your clear vision as to what may be a way forward. I am aware of your profound knowledge of the Armenian Question and the way Turkish society works. I found many of your points very insightful, not least when comparing them with what Hrant Dink said in his time. I also appreciate that this forum gives me a chance to write to you directly.
Your approach is (rightfully) global, so let us consider some more recent global events:
Nobody held the hands of hundreds of millions of East Europeans when Communism crumbled. Needless to say that nobody apologized to them for Cold War policies. Most of these people now live the EU.
Nobody held the hands of the whole German nation earlier, when Willi Brandt knelt down at the memorial in the Warsaw Ghetto. Now, against many odds, Germany is unified again. It is the largest country in the EU.
Why does the World, and Armenians as some of those mostly affected, owe Turkey the good will to be patient?
You postulate that Turkey is a factor which has serious weight in world politics, but avoid commenting on the futility of this weight. You also do not mention its counterweight; several years ago Jewish scholars came up with a (almost forgotten) study that Turkey's GDP is on par with the cummulative Republic of Armenia and Diaspora equivalent of GDP. Otherwise the Armenian Question would have been conveniently long forgotten by now, wouldn't it? Waiting for the right moment for things to happen in Turkey reminds me of a famous piece of Samuel Beckett - how long to wait: 5, 10 years, one generation, another century? I think this was the souce of misunderstandings between Hrant and some members of the Diaspora.
You would say, we can do only things that can be done. If I agree with you, I would be putting myself in the "realpolitik overrules morality" camp. You say in your article that this cannot be a lasting solution. Godot has to come soon and I am not convinced the Turkish intelligencia sees the problem in this way. And while they have a steep and slippery hill to climb, I have all members of my family but one, still unburried in the killing fields around Sebinkarahisar. This was some 500-600km from the Russian positions, at a time when the fastest means of mass military transport was the horse. This should be easy to grasp by anyone in present day Turkey.
To Seervart:
The U.S., England, Russia, and France have all committed genocide. They know the value of genocide. They have gained economically and geopolitically from genocide and other crimes against humanity. Sudan raped, murdered and enslaved 2 million Christians and Animists in southern Sudan before the Darfur crisis. In the next two years they will go back to killing and forced Islamization in the south. Genocide will never be stopped. turks have contempt for Armenians and have but one desire: to continue the Armenian genocide.
To Mehmet:
Taner Akcam's reason for being is to truely democratize and pacify the blood lust of the turkish people. The Germans were an aggressive murderous bunch for well over 2,000 years. Now they have been pacified. Akcam is only using the Armenian genocide issue for the good of the turkish people not the Armenian. He is against restoration of Armenian existence on the Armenian Plateau. Without complete justice there can not be peace.
To Murat:
Apparently you have not received the latest turkish propaganda memo. Your diatribe is so 1980's. The evidence is overwhelming that their was no rebellion 1915 and there was no attempt in 1915 for recreating Greater Armenia. I know you truely believe your kemalist masters, but seriously, every excuse turks have made for the ethnic cleansing and mass murder of the Armenian people from their ancestral patrimony just does not holdwater with all the evidence, especially the German and Austrian political intelligence done in turkey during world war one. The Germans and Austrians made it clear that what was going on in turkey in 1915 was 'race extermination' and that rebellions were made up to facilitate the Armenian genocide.
Greater Armenia will be Armenian inhabited again, as well as Lesser Armenia, Commagene and Cilicia. As for those illegally occupy Armenian lands... I, as a pan turanist, think the best option is relocation...
I sympathize with the Patriarch. However I am afraid the show did not help his cause a bit.
It is true there are problems with religious rights in Turkey. But there are problems even for Muslims, like forbidding headscarves in public places, particularly schools, universities and parliament, and the barriers for children from religious schools to enter universities. The existing laws pertaining to religion have not been created during the current government. The religious rights of Muslims is the main agenda of the current government but all the changes get stuck in Supreme Court, which is highly politicized and is clearly against the current government.
Patriarchs appearance on the show might make Turks hostile to the Church, which is till now was mainly ignored and unnoticed. There is already enough pressure on this issue coming from European Union. It would be better if the Church was not openly involved in the issue, so that not attract any hostility. There are too many other important issues on Turkish headlines right now, particularly the the rights of Kurds. Progress on Orthodox Church should not be expected until further in European Union talks.
Of course many Armenians might like seeing Turkey portrayed in negative light but it does not help the issue at hand, which is the religious rights of Ortodox Christians in Turkey.
It is also unfortunate that Turkey lost most of their Christian population, but with Turkey joining European Union some of that population hopefully might come back and make Turkey even more diverse.
May God bless him for his unwaivering quest for the truth, bearing true witness and extreme courage.
Did you ever consider that the Armenian Patriach didn't want to be interviewed or that he would not have supported the claims of the Greek patriarch? Do you remember our Armenian Patriarch, when interviewed during one of the April 24 occassions did not support our claims? This could very well have been a survival response for him, the Church in Turkey and the Armenians living in Turkey, but still he didn't help us with his comments then.
In the early 1900’s the Turks held elections and allowed the minority groups to put forward their own representatives. The catch was that a minority representative had to accumulate at least 100,000 votes before gaining office. The Greeks at the time won 27 seats, which would correspond to 2,700,000 Greek votes. There were also hundreds of thousands of crypto Christians (especially in the Pontus Region) who outwardly professed to be muslim turks but in privacy were proud Christians and maintained a Hellenic identity. Many people estimate the Greeks to have numbered around 3 to 3.5 million in Asia Minor. Around 1.5 million came to Greece as refugees, what happened to the rest? Did they just vanish????????? I really don’t know how the report justifies a figure of 2 million Greeks.
The only difference between the Armenians and the Greeks has been that the Armenians have been more vocal in pressing the world community to recognize their suffering.
The report was soft on Turkey and did not divuIge too many facts, it simply provided a clear message for Turkey to tow the line, otherwise if they continue their “tough” stance then there will be consequences.
If anything this is great news for the Greeks and Armenians as in years gone by no major channel would have ever dared screen such a program. It’s a clear message that the movers and shakers of the this world are not happy with Turkey.
Whatever the motivation for CBS's 60 Minutes airing this piece, it's a shame (if not the typical travisty) that the've never done a piece about how muslims and Turks are treated in Greece (even to this very day), especially in Cyprus (from the 1950's to the 1974 liberation) by the Greek-Cypriots. Turks were continuously treated as second class citizens all that time (when they weren't being murdered by the Greek terrorist groups (the EOKA-A and the EOKA-B))! [Keep in mind that we haven't even touched on the subject of the racisim, corruption and religious oppression occurring in Armenia even as we speak]! Do you ever hear one single word about any of this in the US media? No way! The religion card is always being played. They (the Western media) has denegrated Moslems for over a century without any response, reaction or even repercussions. Let hundreds of thousands Moslems get massacred, and you're lucky if it makes it to the back of the classifieds in the New York Times. But have some Greek Christians be threatened, it now becomes banner news on TV and the print media all throughout the West!! So this whole situation all boils down to this one simple question...IS THIS JUSTICE, OR IS IT JUST US??!!! Simply remember the old saying before all you Christians in the West start your usual, self-rightious, racist-based finger pointing...PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES...!!
Robert, you are living in a dream world. The injustices committed against the muslims in Thrace and in Cyprus are a slap on the wrist compared to what Hellenism has endured at the hands of the “righteous” Turks. Let me remind you of just a few events:
i) The massacre of about 1,500,000 Greeks between 1915 – 1922
ii) The extortionist tax system (varlik) that stole the wealth from the Christians and created the Turkish aristocracy, and let’s not forget the pogroms of 1956 which murdered and raped members of the Greek community and terrorized the survivors to abandon their homes and positions and to seek refuge and safety abroad. The list of violations are in fact countless.
Mind you when the treaty of 1924 was signed the Greeks of Imvros, Tenedos and Instanbul were allowed to stay and they numbered a total population of around 150,000. Likewise the 90,000 muslims in Greek Thrace were also allowed to stay. Half the muslims in Thrace were Turkish and the other half were Pomaks (Bulgarian/Slavic muslims).
After Turkey’s “non-discriminatory” treatment of the Greeks only 2 to 3 thousand remain in Turkey. The muslims of Greek Thrace on the other hand have increased to a total number of 120,000 and the unethical Turks have the gall to scream about rule violations and insist on referring to the entire muslim population as Turkish.
Also regarding the Turks in Cyprus I challenge any individual to provide me with a total number of Turkish deaths, I’ve yet to see a large enough figure that could ever justify the invasion of the island. Especially when you consider that 150,000 Greeks were being expelled from Turkey, why is it that 100,000 (17% of the population) Turks should enjoy so many right in Cyprus? There were probably a few hundred at most that were killed in the inter-communal violence, does that justify handing over half of the island to the Turks? This is were true western hypocrisy has come into play.
If Turkey deserves such a reward for the death of a few of it’s nationals then what should be the reward for the Greek and Armenian people that have endured countless genocides over the last 800 years. I assume that a just solution would be the liberation of Anatolia and handing it over to its rightful owners. Wouldn’t you agree Robert? Let me remind you that all of Anatolia was Christian and was invaded by the muslim Turks, who ethnically cleansed the region.
The west has for too long supported Turkey because of its geopolitical interests, and it’s great to see that such reports are finally starting to be aired. If there’s anyone that needs to be apologetic it’s the Turks, for their crimes against humanity. The west does not need to apologize to the Turks, they need to apologize to the Christians of the east who they betrayed in their hour of need, all for the sake of securing monetary and political gains.
Yes Robert, you're right. No one is the west has ever defended or tried to help Muslims such as in Bosnia, Kosovo, Darfur. Meanwhile its Muslim killing Muslim in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kurdistan, Darfur...shall I go on?
You must be a Turk to wrote what you have written.
"Taner Akcam’s reason for being is to truely democratize and pacify the blood lust of the turkish people. The Germans were an aggressive murderous bunch for well over 2,000 years."
I am curious,; do some of you folks get together in open fields in the middle of the night and dance around a big burning cross dressed in white coats with long white cones on your heads?
Taner is a relic of 70s, a rusty socialist still fighting long dead ideals and models.
As a Turk, let me first state that in my opinion it is a damm shame that in the land that is pretty much the birthplace of Christian culture there are so few Christians left, no matter what the circumstances or reasons. I have been to as many Churches and Synagogs as Mosques maybe more, growing up in Istanbul, but a smaller percentage of Turks have the same experience now. Which is a loss for the country. I hope things change enough and non-Muslim communities fourish in Anatolia again.
As far as Ruhban Okul is concerned, the topic is a little more complicated than a simple religious intolerance. There are numerous legal issues around this, and I am not that deeply informed about all of them. Firstly, there is no legal or other obstacle to a Seminary school in Istanbul. It has to be, as any other school in the country, part of the Turkish education system. It is a very sensitive issue for various reasons, and this is not too different in many other countries. Again, for various reasons, the Patriarch demands an exception for the staus of this school, and the issue is locked there.
Turkish law does not recognize institutions outside the sphere of state. That is, there is no allowence for Vatican like entities. As far as the Turkish state is concerned, Fener is a Turkish institution. Again, this is certainly not unique to Turkey. Probably that is what is required but again mostly due to historic reasons (I think) it is practically impossible and way too complicated. If it were not the rabid nationalism that surronds Turkey, and mostly emanating from Orthodox lands, it probably would have been far easier to find a middle of the road solution.
Meanwhile there are more churches in Turkey than most of its Chriustian neighbors. A large number of them are active too.
On the other hand can someone tell me how many mosques are there in Erivan? How many in Athens where there were once 150 of them?
Robert, you are obviously Turkish. Listen, Cyprus is a Greek Island for Greeks. Just becuase your Turkish Army invaded the island in 1974 doesn't give you the right to claim as your ancestoral land. Don't forget the Turkish blood came from mongolian roots and invaded the beautiful anatolya and Byzantine Empire a Democractic Christian Kingdom.
Just as you have Mongolian roots in you, your blood runs with Armenian, Greek and every other nation that you raped, brutalized and attempted to destroy.
It's worth delving deep into the problem described above and then ask the questions: The men who commit such sadistic acts of violence against women, or are profiting from human trafficking, are they really Armenian men ? Are they brought up with traditional Armenian Christian values ? How strong is their Armenian identity? Yes, we should look into the issue of identity. In my opinion, real Armenian men have enough self-respect not to commit such horrible acts...
Did the Armenian church participate in the council of Nicea? Your message is very accurate. (The Apostles credo actuall preceded the Nicene Creed -- not exactly the same)
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. (back in 33 AD and 100 BCE many cultures had many gods and had to grow a little to get into monotheism)
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord. There were a number of prophets -- Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Daniel ... but only one "Son of Man" Messiah .. John's Gospel)
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit -- The Holy Spirit is also called the "Comforter" and couold be called the "energy" of God .. "the force" ... the essense in action.
and born of the Virgin Mary. (a first born -- as the Pascal Lamb0
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, (the suffering is our redemptions and also fulfillment of both prophecy and "the law") -- Leviticus
was crucified, died, and was buried. .. This was his "human m ortality"
He descended to the dead. (it was not hibernation)
On the third day he rose again. ( He conquered death in mortal form)(Aristotel: being is a mater and form composite)
He ascended into heaven, (He returned to His real -- heaven -- ours too after this mortal life THANKS TYO HIS redemptions and Grace
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. ... this fulfills Daniel and others
He will come again to judge the living and the dead. (He promises to come again)
I believe in the Holy Spirit, (the Comforter - the active energy of God)
the holy catholic Church, (One universal covenant with all men)
the communion of saints, (a community of those redeemed by grace)
the forgiveness of sins, (forgiven by Our Lord through grace )
the resurrection of the body, (He promised this and He did it)
and the life everlasting. Amen. (Time is not a dimension of the spiritual realm and therefore infinity is its characteristic)
We CAN partake but it does require acceptance of His grace (redemption) and a fair amount of study to understand the spiritual life vis-a-vis the mortal one. Most of us do not understand the spiritual being and thus cannot understand Jesus Christ.
Thank you for this courageous article. I think it is a very important and crucial question. It is central to my relationship to my ethnic heritage and culture. I think that, as part of a particular cultural and geographic environment, we Armenians have to think about these issues in terms of Christianity. The treatment of women should be better (indeed, our church has historically ordained women deacons - albeit in limited function - throughout the centuries when no other church did). We should think carefully about our culture as one that is to stand for values even if those in our surroundings do not share them.
"Just as you have Mongolian roots in you, your blood runs with Armenian, Greek and every other nation that you raped, brutalized and attempted to destroy"
I guess this means you have Mongolian blood in you too, and furthermore, it makes you a self-hating Mongoloid I suppose.
Public lesson1:
Turks are not Mongols, which is a sepeate and distinct ethnicity.
Public lesson2:
Cyprus is not a Greek island for Greeks, since there are so many Turks and others are there, and have been there for a while.
Public lesson3:
Byzantine Empire was never Democractic nor totally Christian or a Kingdom.
Public lesson4:
Turks did not invade the island in 1974, otherwise it would be part of Turkey with only Turkish flag over it.
Public lesson5:
Turks owned the whole of the island for 500 years. They took it from Venetians, who took it from Arabs, who took it from Romans... so, direct your complaints to Italians maybe.
Public lesson6:
Over 25 nations and states, Christian, Muslim and Jewish, were born out of the ashes of the Ottoman Empire. If all they did were rape and pillage and destroy other ethnicities, nations and religions, they surely did the worst possible job in history!
Merry Christmas to all...
I'm glad Henri Theriault wrote about that problem and brought it into the open. We should adopt an organisation in Armenia that already deals with that andtalk about that on TV and in the papers. The people who do those heartless acts really don't have any human values or Armenian values. There's a song where the Fedayee says " me vakhenar hankist guetsir baji djan, gananz yerpek tserk dali tché djan Fedan". Any change will happen only if we in the Diaspora stand behind the organisation in Armenia with financial aid and expert support. Otherwise change won't come easy.
To George, Joseph and Zar:
George, where did you come up with the figure of 1.5 million Greeks being killed between 1915-1922? This is the same figure used by dashnak Armenians. So then, Turks now have killed a combined 3 million Greeks and Armenians during this time period? Boy, lying comes so natural to you Greeks and Armenians, doesn't it!!! After WWI, the allies carved Turkey up, with pieces going to Greece, Britain, Italy, France, etc., leaving only a tiny piece in the center for Turks to call their own. There were no weapons (the allies took everything), barely any food or clothing (Turks were starving and freezing in many areas!). The Sultans had sold out the country and had escaped with the British. There was no government nor any money left post WWI! So, to all you Armenians and Greeks who keep claiming falsely that 3 million Greeks and Armenians were "killed" after the war, who exactly were the army that was doing all of this suppossed killings? It sure couldn't have been Turks (they didn't even have an intact army or ammunition, let alone food and proper transportation)! Perhaps it was space aliens (remember what they did in 1947 in Roswell, NM when they shot down that "weather balloon")! Turks had just gone through two wars, the Balkan wars and WWI! There were few troops left. Everyone was exhausted and hungry. With great effort, Ataturk slowly but surely, began to rally troops and officers for the war for independence. He began to retake what had been divided up. First the French (who later supplied Ataturk with weapons and ammo), followed by the Italians, then the British, and finally finishing up by throwing the Greeks into the sea at the final battle at Izmir. The atrocities committed by both the Greeks and the Armenians against the Turks were incredibly horrific as Ataturk marched into Izmir! Captured Armenians stated how they helped Greeks set fire to the city and massacre innocent Turkish civillians there. These were also witnessed by the crews of the US military ships anchored off the coast, commanded by Admiral Mark Bristol. The rest of your "arguments in this regard pales in comparrison! As for Cyprus, no one still knows how many murdered Turkish-Cypriots still are to be found. The liberation not only was legal (via the Tri-lateral Treaty signed by Greece, Turkey and England), but was long overdue! My oldest sister was just 14 when she was visiting her girlfriend in Famagusta in 1965. The second night that she was there, the Eoka-B came and entered her friend's home, raped and mutilated my sister beyond recognition, raped and brutalized her girlfriend, and then left her for dead before they left (she was able to describe the event to the police in the hospital before she too died the following day. Of course, the Greek-Cypriot police did nothing)! You speak of the 800 years of suffering by the Greeks and Armenians. The Byzantines were finally defeated with the fall of Constantinople (now Istanbul) in 1453. Ask any Armenian how grateful they were then to no longer having to be abused and taxed to death, or being placed into slavery by the Byzantines! Don't even get me started on the Crusades, the corrupt Popes who ordered countless atrocities, the Spanish Inquisition, the heiracy trials in Germany and France, etc. The Christians have murdered more people in the name of God than any other group on the planet! Get your facts straight before you start making accusations! Also, who are you to dare mention ethnic cleansing! Look at what Greeks, and especially dashnak Armenians have done to Moslems and non-Moslems alike, from 1880-1992! Armenians alone murdered 518,000 Turks before, during and after WWI (for a total of 2.5 million Turks, Kurds, Laz, Greeks (yes Greeks!), non-dashnak Armenians, Persians, Georgians, Azeris, Tartars, Arabs, Jews killed)! Greeks committed their own little "house of horrors" against Moslems (not only Turks) as well during this period, including from the 1950's to the 1974 liberation of Cyprus! As for the West helping the Moslems, it's more like helping themselves to their natural resources (e.g. OIL). Can you say Haliburton? How many genocides were committed by Christians in their quest for imperialism and colonial expansionism? Finally, let's not forget the dashnak Armenian terrorism during the 1970's and the 1980's, which killed and maimed hundreds of innocent people world-wide. Members of ASALA are supplying and training the terrorist group PKK in Lebanon and in Syria as well.
To Joseph, if it were possible for the Serbians to keep things quiet, they would have massacre every single Bosnian Moslem in the area, as well as the Croatians! However, word, and then proof came out and forced the West to intervene in these Balkan regions. The Greeks would love to exterminate the Moslems in Albania! So don't just focus on Moslems without also looking at yourselves!! I don't defend fanatical Islamists (in fact, I'd like to see them gone myself). I too see what the fruits of fanatacisim can do (Muslim against Muslim, Christian against Muslim, Christian against Christian, Christian against Native Americans, Christian against Asians, Christian against African, Christian against Latinos, etc.). I'd love to see everyone finally live together in peace and mutual harmony, but it won't happen because we are known as MAN, and this is simply in our nature, to kill and have wars!
To Zar, you're simply a racist! Re-read what you wrote. If after reading it, then after reading my post, you can still stand by your comment, then you need to put back on your white sheet robe and pointed KKK hat! For your edification, Cyprus had been conqured by the Ottoman Empire for centuries! Yes, we can lay claim to it also.
A very bad article which is trying to show Armenian men as brutal as possible. They want to destroyArmenian family by their lies. Raping Azeri women, husband is raping his wife??? what does this mean
What's also false about this news story is that Adana is in Western Armenia it is not. It's in Cilicia. There are four Armenia lands in what for now is turkey: Greater Armenia (Western Armenia), Lesser Armenia, Commagene and Cilicia.
Dr. Theriault,
First of all, I would just like to commend you for a brilliant, timely, and thoughtful article.
I would like to point out a few a things, however:
1. There is a far more comprehensive study done on domestic violence in Armenia by the Minnesota Advocates for Human Rights: (http://www.mnadvocates.org/Work_in_Armenia.html). You should give this a look.
2. There has been a lot of attention given to sexual slavery in Armenia, I just think because of a few reasons you pointed out, and the fact that Armenian society is too exhausted to deal with issues like this -- they have been neglected. I'm pretty sure if we didn't have a 30% unemployment rate, poverty, blockades, genocide recognition, threat of war, and such a corrupt government, our society would be quite inspiring on this issue.
And I don't want to throw a patriotic twist to this, but the Azerbaijan and Armenian cases are different. What happened in Kharabagh was done by a band of militants during a WAR. What happened in Azerbajian (and what happened in Turkey in the 50s and 60s) was done by a mob of CIVILIANS. I think the point might be trivial, but it says two very important things about our societies -- and how different we are when it comes to the "other." Azerbajian has few of the hardships the people of Armenia have, and yet their society hasn't even decided whether or not they WANT to prosecute the CIVILIANS who committed those atrocities in Sumgait and Baku, let alone whether or not they CAN/SHOULD. Putting a soldier on trial is politically sensitive, especially when you're trying to maintain discipline and preserve a state. They don't have to deal with putting soldiers on trial for Sumgait or Baku and yet a lot of them justify it -- I've seen no such sentiment within our wider society.
There's a brilliant documentary on sexual savery and Armenians in Dubai done by Hetq: I encourage you to watch it if you haven't done so yet -- It's called Dessert Nights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fC7KDY4sqE -- that's just part 1.
Evet, dogru.
Tamamiyle Yalandir!
You are bad loosers of a war, that your grandparents have started. Nobody has told you to give it to the Russians. But you did... You betrayed yourself, just as you betray your grandchildren nowadays.
"Do not mess with Türkiye." This is what the british, french, greece and russians has learned...
And, I would ask you to look into the following regarding the Armenian response to the women who were violated and raped during the genocide. It's a sad read:
TACHJIAN, VAHE. "Gender, nationalism, exclusion: the reintegration process of female survivors of the Armenian genocide."Nations & Nationalism 15.1 (2009): 60-80.
I have been waiting a long time to see an article like this. The brutal treatment of Armenian women must be stopped. Those who traffic or torture Armenian women should be removed from society forever. They are a detriment to not only having a civil society but a detriment to Armenian nationalism and the Armenian Ethos. I wish to actively participate in solving this problem. Hopefully there will be another article on how I and others can change this aspect of Armenian society. If the rights of women are protected and justice is swift to all those affected, I think everything else in Armenia would improve. If you ask me, ensuring civil and human rights for women is a national security issue. The problems concerning this issue will only get worse when the border opens.
Wel Well Well. History can repeat itself. Doesn't this remind us of April 24th 1915 when 250 Armenian intellectuals were rounded up? What is the Turkish Democratic State going to do? Deport and kill 20 million Kurds? Good luck to them.
One more reason for old genocides to be acknowledged and reparations made; is for new ones don't happen.
Herif,
We all know you have your playbook on how to handle Akcam, socialist, relic, dead ideas etc very Reaganesque-kemalist 80's. But you Murat, your rhetorical constructs are bipolar at best. Referencing the kkk about mentioning historic German barbarity shows how the enemies of truth go about their business. Taking things out of context, lies sprinkled with truth, out and out lies etc..
The rhetorical constructs/sophistry used by turks to deny the truth is I believe a mental illness because whatever the deniers of genocide cite is a manifestation of pure delirium. Compared to turks throughout history the kkk is a benevolent peaceful male bonding group. Trust me Murat nothing you have to say about the Armenian genocide or Armenian history holds water. Every Armenian genocide denial factoid is absolute intellectual fantasy. Your only way to fight back is to not use reason but using hit and run tactics of attacking the messenger and some how (ludicrous in your last post) demonize the ideas when, in fact there is no basis in fact. So Murat become an intelligent participant. If you have ideas without vitriol then present them, if not then go away.
Excellent, impressive, and necessary. Thank you Dr Theriault. There is nothing to be surprised at, especially if one looks at figures in far more prosperous and developed countries. Wife-killing and wife-raping are a nationial plague in Spain for example. It is not a matter of being Armenian or anything, it is a matter of how men see women, especially if the latter are helpless for economic or psychological reasons, or simply because they have small children. Machos are machos. And Armenians have often remained machos, they don't compare with Swedish men. Boys' mothers bear part of the responsibility of course. For an Armenian reader, this is terrible : It means that when we stand in a crowd in Yerevan, a lot of men whose sleeves touch ours, not just a few, have already hit or raped a woman. And it means that in a feminine environment, like at the hairdressers or in a clothes shop, a high proportion of the women we chat with have experienced rape, violence, sadism. What you didn't mention, Dr Theriault, is incest. When there is rape, when a man doesn't control his sexual drives, it is hard to believe that incest committed by brothers, cousins, fathers, grand-fathers, male in-laws cannot exist. Isn't it a disgrace, too, that Diaspora organisations and parties have closed their eyes on many of the scandals in Armenia? Corruption, mafia etc. Not all of the population's misery is due to the Turkish blockade. In Artsakh, an organisation called "Mères courages" supports only widowed mothers, by giving them a cow and a calf - to have milk for the children and to make and sell cheese then to get more calves, of which some must then be returned to the group which donates the animals to another widowed mother etc. It is very successful. Like with other sorts of microcredits, including those provided by the Grameen bank, they show that trusting and empowering women, especially mothers who care for their family while fathers, when they exist, tend to rather care for their own well-being, has a significant impact on the economy and on society at large. Eventually boys and men profit by it too. And the sons get a positive image of women when they see their mothers become little businesswomen. If Dr Theriault or the Armenian Weekly were kind enough to provide the names and addresses of organisations that defend women's rights in Armenia, I too, would be glad to contribute financially, and if possible, by disseminating their appeals.
The latest violations of elementary norms of democratic behaviour by all the organs and institutions of the Turkish state is proof once again that it is incapable of reform from within and must be abolished from without.
Let's be clear about this: The Kurdish democratic movement, including the top leadership of the PKK, declare a ceasefire for the nth time, lay down their arms and leave the mountains and hand themselves over to the Turkish authorities only for the Deep State to conspire a terrorist attack against its own soldiers with a view to sabotaging the peace initiative of the Kurdish democratic movement with the Turkish ruling party - AKP- and provoking armed struggle again. Then the "Constitutional Court" in Ankara declares the Kurdish Democratic Society Party, which has been vocal and instrumental in bringing about the peace initiative, ceasefire and the dialogue, illegal! All this happening just before major local and national elections in Turkey where the ruling "reformist" AKP party, headed by Erdoghan and Gul, are seen by many to be very vulnerable and worried about losing big time in Kurdish areas, where people are supporting the Kurdish Democratic Society Party in their droves.
So the Deep State does its usual terrorist trick, the judiciary throws in its bit while the AKP ruling party/government is coordinating the attack behind the scenes - or at best wrings its hands with pleasure at the abolition of a major minority democratic party in the middle of a Deep State provoked almost civil war situation!
Conclusion: there is no capacity or inclination for reform or dialogue from within Turkey, as the ideology and culture are deeply racist and Turkish ultra-nationalist. Indeed the situation is hardly different from Nazi Germany which had to be destroyed from without, by the combined efforts of the civilised world - the Allies - before German society itself and all its neighbouring peoples and countries could be rid of the poison of Nazi racist militarism and foundations of a democratic German state could be laid - only on the total ruins of the racist-militarist Nazi state.
The denial of the Armenian Genocide by the same racist state and its continued deep hostility towards and hatred of the Armenian people and the Republic of Armenia are parts and parcel of the same problem, as are the continued occupation of Cyprus and saber-rattling with Greece in the Aegean - to mention but a few of the problems caused by Turkey.
The Turkish state, therefore, including its "reformist" AKP government, are clearly incapable of effecting any real reforms, despite their pretences and Mr Taner Akcam's good intentions and wishful thinking; unfortunately for him, the evidence simply is not there. If anything the Deep State, were it to develop biological or chemical weapons, not to mention nuclear ones, soon could actually cause a serious threat to all its European neighbours - Bulgaria, Greece and even Russia. It must be destroyed and abolished by the civilised world before that tragic stage is reached which will additionally lay the foundations for a truly democratic society in Turkey itself for the benefit of all the peoples living in Turkey.
Hye, and so the second Genocide by the Turks is/has been in progress. Today the Kurds. Had the first Genocide of the Armenian nation by the Ottomans shall have been recognized for what it was - the elimination of a civilized society. Had the perpetrator, the Ottoman Turks, been made to face their guilt at that time. Greatly possible that all the Genocides since shall have never been.
Just think! All the Genocides of 20th century that followed the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenians, and into the 21st century - shall not have been! Innocents slaughtered, families destroyed, homes and lands taken by force... all shall not have been - had the guilty Turk been punished for their slaughters and more of a nation - seeking their own goals for a nation of their own.
US leadership plays the 'politics' of the moment - the morality of our nation has been ignored, the morality of our nation has been 'diverted'... Hence Genocides shall continue into 2009 - and more, Why not? Perpetrators go scot free... Politics is the name of the 'game... Anyone for Morality?
Manooshag
The leadership of the United States of America government -
Manooshag
Dear mindless fascist Esh Oghlu Esheg, keep on blabbing as you do, by all means.
Sincerely yours, as you certainly are sincerely mine,
H
If you were to read this message that I can't believe in Armenia we have orphans..........very sad. I think they should support the parents to hold on to their kids instead of making money on these children. ALSO the girls can be raped, sold for prostitution and other murder cases. Lets stop this from happening to our pure Christian people. God Bless.
During the last five years of living in Armenia I have only heard of one case (not one of several that I have read) of daily brutal abuse of a woman living in Vanadzor who was essentially married to a maniac. Judging from the detailed stories that were told to me by her best friend (I met the abused woman a few times, actually) her husband was obviously mentally deranged. I have seen the statistic of 69 percent of women having endured some kind of physical violence (I have read that same report but do not have it at my fingerprints as I write this comment), but a significant percentage of women in this category have only experienced it no more than a few times or certainly less, with a slap across the face, something like this. Many women consider such an instance of violence to be justifiable, that their partners had good reason to slap them, crazy as that sounds (a woman who was slapped only once actually told me this). Naturally I am not trying to justify this behavior, but I just want to point out that the entire 69 percent of Armenian women surveyed who have suffered from domestic violence did not experience it brutally on a day-to-day basis. I hope readers have not interpreted this to be the case.
As the article points out the most poignant dangers that vulnerable women face, especially those living in rural areas, is trafficking. Usually those who have little opportunities and who lack a solid familial support structure are lured into being sold into sexual slavery when promised jobs picking oranges in Greece, and instead they wind up in Dubai or cities in Turkey where they are forced to "buy back" their passports by working for years as sex slaves, if they ever do get them back. The Armenian authorities have been cracking down on traffickers and sentencing them but some wind up on the street by "escaping" from prison or paying bribes for an early release. This information has been available for well over five years now and it's not hard to find on the Internet (see for instance the extraordinary "Desert Nights" series of articles along with the companion documentary produced by Hetq).
I don't know what it's going to take for diasporan Armenians to understand how important these problems are, especially trafficking, for Armenian women. I think quite honestly people choose to ignore these pertinent issues because they don't want their grandiose, romantic vision of Armenia to be shattered. Hopefully, Dr. Theriault's article will enlighten many of them.
@Turkoglu
Some war - starving grandmothers and infants on one side and armed soldiers on the other - but I guess Turkey had to claim 'victories' where it could after losing 90% of its empire and 99% of the oil wealth in the region (and world).
I am not sure a 2 year old dying of thirst during the 'war' he was 'waging' grasped that he was a 2 year old 'security risk' and dangerous rebel, and neither did that infant's mother or grandmother.
I am interested in one fact that may be gleaned from the Turkish military archives - which are sealed shut of course, because even a routine requisition, say for lime, would be incrimination.
How many Turkish soldiers were killed by these Armenian grandmothers who were in 'open revolt' and had to be peacefully deported. It is entirely justifiable to kill off the women and children, who historically have led many rebel movements.
This position of denial borders on insanity because a denialist has to argue that infants and grandmothers were a threat to the Turkish army - and for your information, the answer to the question is ZERO, so you win: 1.5 Million vs. Zero.
The Armenian Genocide is the willful destruction of innocent children, women, and grandmothers (i.e. civilians) who posed NO security risk, were definately NOT combatants, and were destroyed because they were Armenian, and if you think it was an 'internal relocation' - try walking across the Mojave desert - your reaction would be 'do you want to see me die' because people don't survive 250 mile treks through the desert without water according to my version of science.
It is interesting that the Armenian 'question' has become the Kurdish 'question' but no WWI to bail you out this time; even more interesting is the secret plans found by the 'deep' (i.e. majority) state in which they were planning on planting weapons on Kurdish leaders and accusing them of false rebellions - hmmm, where have I heard that before? I guess someone in Turkey knows what really happenedand still has the playbook - the Turkish army.
You err tremendously.No, we did not betray neither to ourselves nor to your ancestors.We were the obedient ,albeit forcibly so,your "raya"s the Ermenis...Your governments ,even after Mustafa Kemal, did not learn that Justice always prevails..
It is time to come to grips with reality.Your denying continually, even to this day that your ancestors committed Genocide to us Ermenis,will not bear fruit!!!!
Much stronger Empires have collapsed than your Ottoman one!Yet you have not learnt...
Our children , grandchildren will , if need be, will pursue our Cause/Case ,untill Justice prevails and our homes, churches, monasteries in Western Armenia are returned to the rightfull owners.
Also brace yourselves, for we shall claim BLOOD MONEY.BLOOD OF OUR ANCESTORS THAT was spilt by your precedent governments...
There are precedents to that.
Ermeni Oglusu-
Shantagizuoum
Demitry Medvedev' s Phenotype
(Genes of Naxshikyan's & Bakratyan's)
Dmitry’s 'Kind eyes' cleverly shines,
To say, I have genes of the Armenians.
His ‘Eyebrows’ can't be more than an Armenian.
His ‘Lips’ are thin this is another indication,
His ‘Forehead’ wide and an unambiguous,
His nose may be and may be not.
But, I would say, "My parents are from Anatolia
and don't have the bony nose of the Armenians.
He is short like Armenians.
In many ways, he looks my father krikor and my son Hans-Krikor.
Let him analyze his DNAs to confirm
If he has another origin, other than an Armenian.
To all of you.Latest "breaking News" on this site has it that the great Turkey has embarked on a yet "revised" New strategy,rounding up Kurdish groups heads throughout the country ,put them Heaven knows where -depriving them of constitutional? rights to apply to defense attorneys-Thus showing their unchanging stance,after near a century of what they did to our Armenians similar heads of groups in Istanbulla!!!
It is very interesting to see how U.K.U.S.A and France will react to this new Fiasco!!!!
Like Harut Sassounian now and then hints, they are prone to get trapped in traps they themselves set up for others...
WAIT AND SEE..
Shantagizoum
A deadly blow to those who believed in a better future... Big despair for believers in peace...
Dear all,
great Turkey, so amplified by "allies" has to realize and admit facts.
History shows-proves that "conquistadores" conquerers also loose by and by...
Ottomans,i.e., turkic tribes, moguls etc., did conquer Western Armenia to further west-Asia Minor entirely,rooting out from millenia old people living there.Prof Richard G. Hovhanissian -mutely- but adamantly showed it at a couple of Symposium in FL ,last year relics of Armenian pieces picked upo in Siva, erzeroum Erzincan etc.,which goes to show-and did show on large sacreen b ehind him, at FAU(many turks participating) that ARMENIANS HAD LIVED THERE:..
This is not the question.Then pop up some of turks present and utter such phrases as usual" but Armenians stab bed us on the b ack, uniting with Russians etc.,, egtc.,"
Right? no not at al..INCORECT and I proved it there and then saying the following standing up, while many many turned b ack to see who this was.. I went on..
"I am from Europe, few here present know thatg another nation in furthermost Europe had been conquered and was ruled for over 600 years b y North African khaliphates,Spain(España)...
but then a spanish pricess, united the spanish princes in secret meetings, got well armed and eventually drove the occupiers OUT!!!!
This ,unfotunately would not happen in Western Armenia-the few arms smuggled in from the Caucaes were not enough and Ottoman Turkey kept vigilance on population-according to my father-not allowing them to even carry "zmeli"s ,paper cutting knives...
Ab ove goes to prove that any people have the GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO Independence!!!!!
So why beat around the bush? yes we did all we could but did not succeed TOTALLY.
thank God at least we attained oNE OBJECTIVE HAVE AN ALBEIT SMALL BUT INDEPENDENT ARMENIAN REPUBLIC...LDET US STICK TO IT,WHETHER MAOIST, COMMUNIST, nZHDEHIST OR WHATVER. iT IS THERE.bELIVE YOU ME NOT SO EASY TO DEAL WITH.iT JUST PARTICIPATED IN THE FIVE FOLD cis COUNTRIES pACT RATIFYING A TEN BILLION DOLLAR WORTH ARMAMENT REFURBISHMENT.ALL FICE STAND TOGETHER FOR ANY AGGRESSION.WHAT IS MORE NO PETROL PRODUCING CO.IN THE REGION(SUPPORTED BY THEIR GOVERNMENGTS) WILL ALLOW AGVGRESSION TO HAPPEND THERE.lET aLIEV SON SAY ,THREATEN WHATEVER HE WISHES....
hAMA hAIGAGANI siRO,
gAYDZ
The latest violations of elementary norms of democratic behaviour by all the organs and institutions of the Turkish state - this time against Kurdish democratic parties - is proof once again that it is incapable of reform from within and must be abolished from without, as the Nazi state was.
Mr Akcam's analysis, a masterly distillation of his two great works (A Shameful Act, and From Empire to Republic), do not withstand the evidence and, at the end of the day amount to wishful thinking.
Let’s be clear about this: The Kurdish democratic movement, including the top leadership of the PKK, declare a ceasefire for the nth time, lay down their arms and leave the mountains and hand themselves over to the Turkish authorities only for the Deep State to conspire a terrorist attack against its own soldiers with a view to sabotaging the peace initiative of the Kurdish democratic movement with the Turkish ruling party – AKP- and provoking armed struggle again. Then the “Constitutional Court” in Ankara declares the Kurdish Democratic Society Party, which has been vocal and instrumental in bringing about the peace initiative, ceasefire and the dialogue, illegal! All this happening just before major local and national elections in Turkey where the ruling “reformist” AKP party, headed by Erdoghan and Gul, are seen by many to be very vulnerable and worried about losing big time in Kurdish areas, where people are supporting the Kurdish Democratic Society Party in their droves.So the Deep State does its usual terrorist trick, the judiciary throws in its bit while the AKP ruling party/government is coordinating the attack behind the scenes – or at best wrings its hands with pleasure at the abolition of a major minority democratic party in the middle of a Deep State provoked almost civil war situation!Conclusion: there is no capacity or inclination for reform or dialogue from within Turkey, as the ideology and culture are deeply racist and Turkish ultra-nationalist. Indeed the situation is hardly different from Nazi Germany which had to be destroyed from without, by the combined efforts of the civilised world – the Allies – before German society itself and all its neighbouring peoples and countries could be rid of the poison of Nazi racist militarism and foundations of a democratic German state could be laid – only on the total ruins of the racist-militarist Nazi state.The denial of the Armenian Genocide by the same racist state and its continued deep hostility towards and hatred of the Armenian people and the Republic of Armenia are parts and parcel of the same problem, as are the continued occupation of Cyprus and saber-rattling with Greece in the Aegean – to mention but a few of the problems caused by Turkey.The Turkish state, therefore, including its “reformist” AKP government, are clearly incapable of effecting any real reforms, despite their pretences and Mr Taner Akcam’s good intentions and wishful thinking; unfortunately for him, the evidence simply is not there. If anything the Deep State, were it to develop biological or chemical weapons, not to mention nuclear ones, soon could actually cause a serious threat to all its European neighbours – Bulgaria, Greece and even Russia. It must be destroyed and abolished by the civilised world before that tragic stage is reached which will additionally lay the foundations for a truly democratic society in Turkey itself for the benefit of all the peoples living in Turkey.
I disagree with my husband, Nazareth Stamboulian.
I would like to thank Angelina for adapting an Armenian child. Knowing her heart I'm sure the child will grow-up in a warm and healthy atmosphere. When the time comes, the child will tell the world the difference between a shelter or responsible adapting parents. Choosing an Armenian child will teach how to love and respect human life.
Hye, well the word 'Genocide' is not as effective as it shall be... How about the word 'SLAUGHTERS'?
Since the word Genocide includes slaughtering, raping, defiling the victims - humans whose race, religion, or other 'reasons' allow the despots to pursue their own goals - at the cost of the lives of the innocents. Animals slaughter while seeking food...
Humans, that is , civilized humans know not to pursue slaughtering other humans. It is the uncivilized, the warriors whose need to slaughter that pursue the slaughtering, the Genocides.
Yet, it is despots who still pursue, still deny all the slaughters their cultures have wreaked to gain
their goals... these despots have not been brought to justice - the Slaughters, the Genocides
by the uncivilized leaderships continue into today... But sadly, it is the civilized leaderships of
the civilized nations who only offer 'humanitarin aid' - to survivors whose lives have become a
living hell... Civilized leaderships who stand aside - and watch as the Genocides continue. Civilized leaderships, civilized nations unable to end the cycle of Genocides...the Slaughtering of humans, of innocents, continues into today, now the Kurds... Whither morality?
Manooshag
He certainly does not look Jewish as Jews usually have a tendency to have smaller eyes and different expression of eyes than the Europeans. He has a definite European looks. Yes, he can check his DNA to confirm the status whether he has Armenian blood or not. What's more important for me, is to side more with the Armenians and go against the darn protocols.
You are right Dino as that's what Turks wish to do. They want to continue their stupid idiotic sick and warped dreams of pan-turanism but they will not do away with Armenia, that will not happen. Instead as you have already mentioned; we shall have back Greater Armenia, Lesser Armenia and «Աստուծոյ կամքով ԾՈՎԻՑ ԾՈՎ ՀԱՅԱՍՏԱՆ մեր երկիրը դրախդավայր»:
' I, as a pan turanist, think the best option is relocation…"
You mean Tehcir? You are confusing it with deportation probably. Then again there is so little you get right.
Shantagizoum,
Let me explain the situation there in terms that even you should be able to understand:
Pretend that you're living in the southern regions of the US. Pro-seperatist and terrorist-sympathizing Mexican-American politicians have been elected to many local and state positions, as well as a few who have been elected to Congress in Washington. In the entire south, all you can hear are Mexican radio stations (and a few TV stations) which spew pro-seperatist bilge. At first, these messages are coded. Later, they become much more brazen and openly call for a violent revolt and take over. The US National Guard identifies some of their leaders and rounds them up before they can incurr and coordinate more attacks against US peoples. Mexican terrorist groups, demanding that the US give up their entire southern lands, enter nightly accross the border and kill your civillians (including your friends and neighbors), soldiers, police, while planting and detonating bombs in major shopping centers in New York, LA, Chicago, etc. Ultimately, the death toll over the past decade has now risen to over 30,000! The US has sent reprisal attacks on discovered Mexican terrorist camps accross the border in Mexico. Now, both Mexico and the US are predominately Christian nations. However, the US discovers that many of these Mexican terrorists are being trained and supplied in the southern regions of Mexico by terrorist factions from Germany, Asia and South Africa. The attacks continue as more Americans are being murdered by these terrorists. Finally, you (the US) get a break. You learn were the leader of this terrorist group is. He has been located in Chile. Another country's anti-terrorist units have just captured him. The US sends troops to bring him back to the US for trial. A panicked Mexican terrorist group, now leaderless, brokers a cease fire with the US. In exchange for a prolonged cease fire and the chance to start negotiation talks, the US agrees not to seek the death penalty on their captured leader. A year, and then two pass in relative peace and quiet. The US refuses the demands of Mexico to surrender all of its southern regions (from CA to TX). Mexico states that these were their ancestorial lands. Now tensions begin to mount once again. The pro-terrorist Mexican-American politicians in the US are instigating talks for mass rebellion against Americans. They refuse to speak English and will only communicate in Spanish. Finally, after more incurrsions and more killings, followed by more US reprisal attacks, the American people have had enough! The President of the US (e.g. Obama) realizes that he must take action now, beyond just simple reprisal attacks. Knowing through intelligence reports that many of the Mexican-American politicians in the US are behind these new renewed attacks in varying capacities, the President does the only thing left for him to do to prevent further killings. He institutes a limited regional martial law, citing that these politicians are responsible in the coordination of these attacks. He orders them to be arrested and under military edict, held indefinately. Legal counsel is denied (can't take any chances of these instigators to be set free on any technicalities). The Mexican-Americans in the south demonstrate. The world press/media decends like vultures into the region. After interviewing only the Mexican-Americans, and not even bothering to interview one single American, they paint a very different, one-sided biased picture of what's occurring, very far from the real truth. America's enemies (those that have been jealous and envious for decades), those that would love to destabilize America and have it fall apart, run banner headlines of "Breaking News", etc. Whatever it takes to help make the US look bad, without having the American people describe what had really been going on for years, they are and will continue to do.
Now can you understand? I could just have easily used other examples (Armenia and Georgia, the US and Canada, the US and the UK, etc.). So, before you start having an estatic orgasm regarding a situation that you know nothing about, and reading biased, one-sided reports in the media, stop for just a moment and ask yourself...Is there another side to this story? You may surprise yourself as to what you may very well discover!
Hye Marry, of course to be adopted to good parents is fine... but yet, after the Genocide so many Armenian children had lost their parents and were raised in the Danish
Karen Yeppe and other such orphanages. These were our Survivors who carried the pain of the memories of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation... Who grew up to become the parents of our first generation since the Genocide. We know these
Survivors, our parents, grandparents and great grand parents, wherever in the diasporan lands they fled to, raised their own children to the best of their abilities. In other words, the children of the orphanages were to be
the first generation of Armenian parents in foreign lands. Looking back so many of them were, and are, to be recognized for their dedication of our Haiastan, their dedication for the recognition of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation to be
recognized - and the guilty Turk be brought to face justice.
It is with these orphans that we have our Covenant, who received it from the Martyred, and now our Covenat to pursue - never to forget... Manooshag
The Germans had a very heavy involvement in what befell the Armenians from Abdul Hamid up to the reign of the CUP. It was the Kaiser himself who personally presented a medal to Abdul Hamid after the massacres of the 1890's
You keep doing your stupid propoganda about Turkish people, you are not going to succeed in any thing, Turks are fully aware of your hate for them even you open borders you a not welcommed to their country, it is better Turks and armenians stay away from eachother, you used to accuse kurds killing you now they are your friend?
you armenians are some special race, who build their unity on hate
The comparison ,rather a very futile one.Ottoman Turkey´s attitude towards its harshly,nay brutally subdued Armenian subjects (they called us "rayas") on latter´s Millenia old Habitat is well known the world over and quite accurately registered in mnay a histoy document/book.
As to Armenians´quest for Liberation from imposed yolk on them for 600 years a God Given Right!!!
You wish to have an example(s) and that very far away ?
First one in Westernmost Europe:-North African Moorish Khaliphates had invaded-conquered what is now known as Spain.Pretty much like the seljuk-mogul turkish tribes from Central Asia had entered Western Armenia and conquered it.Before I go any further, what trasnpired then in this case, a note:- These North >African moors left architectural marvels in Spain.Whereas in the case of the seljuk-mogul turkish tribes invading Armenia did the OPPOSITE,i.e., ruined tore down the Armenian Monasteries,churches(making certain that a few showcase ones were left intact)witness Aghtamar in Lake Van(an 11 centuries old Monastery, built by Armenian King)so that then they would show to the world that they had not done any harm to a close to one thousand such..
At first they did the re-opening of said Monastery viz.Aghtamar without putting back on top the Christianity´s symbol the cross.Instead they hung a very long Canvas top to bottom,(for int´l T.V.correspondents to video it) A huge portgrait of Mustafa Ataturk,founder of present r.of Turkey.Also, they have preserved a very small village on the Mediterraneancoast called "Vagef" in their language,leaving a few "remnants"(Armenians) there ,so as when Your like tourists go there they will be convinced that Ottoman turks "never" touched their "raya" Armenians..O.K. so far?
Now git a load of the following:-A spanish princess(remembger still under occupation of invadors) secretly organized the provincial Princes, got armed and drove the invadors OUT!!!
Not so,the case in far flung corner of Eastermost Europe,the Caucasus and adjacent Western Armenia.Ottoman turks did not allow their "ermeni rayas",i.e. Armenian coolies or slaves to even carry "Zmelis" paper cutting knives..
The very few arms smuggled into Western Armenia that here and there helped Armenian Partisans"fedayees" this latter dubbed word by the invador turks on them to wage a fruitless strife to rid them of the invadors.What is more, Ottoman Turkey having been(as imn the Spanish cas)driven out of the Balkans ,including Greece,concentrated all its might to the East, viz. Western Armenia (dubbing same as Anatolia) .The WWI having been near extinguished to the West, they viz .,the turks well furbished by arms caches of the British,especially in Kars Province,handed over to thme ,instead of the faithfull ,albeit small Armenian ally,then attacked newly independent Armenia in the East Provinces of it.On the other side the Red Army was fast closing in,so Armenia decided to give in to the latter instead of yet another time submitting itself to the already well known blood-thirsty turks...
Oh ,I nearly forgot,second example:-The case of the emancipation from British rule in further ,oceans away ..what is now known the U.S.A.This I don´t believe I have to go over with you.The people stood up and said "give me Liberty or death" .I do trust now you follow what is happening again on Asia minor, where according to statistics some 20 million kurds live(oh by the by..untill very recently dubbed as "mountain turks" by great Turkey..
Thence, if you wish to make comparisons ,have above in view.
This is a great article! Thanks for putting the Genocide into greater historical perspective. Your point is right: this genocide was premeditated for many years. It didn't just happen, and it certainly didn't just happen because, as Armen said, Armenian children, women, and grandmothers suddently took up arms against the Ottoman empire. They didn't. They were innocent victims. The Genocide was planned for many years and hatred of Armenians was clearly ingrained in the Turkish psyche and obviously still is! Genocides are never spontaneous. They have a long gestation period.
Turkoglu's comments are a sign of his ignorance about his country's own history. But don't blame him. This is what he has been taught. It's so easy to be blindly nationalistic, to go with the flow, and to just accept the line that Turkish governments since 1923 have put forward as the "truth". The archives of the world are full of clearcut evidence that the Armenian genocide occured and that it was no different from any other ethnic cleansing we have seen since 1915 except it was on a collosal scale with all the hallmarks of genocide as defined by Raphael Lemkin. Turkoglu is on the wrong side of history as are millions of Turks who still refuse to look at the past and who would rather be blissfully nationalistic than honest and righteous.
Still, as we have seen, honest and righteous Turks who recognize the Genocide are out there and they have become more vocal in recent years. My wife and I met one of them recently. She happens to be a clerk at a shop in one of our local malls. As soon as she saw our name on our credit card she said she is a Turk and she believes the Genocide happened. We were shocked, but why should we be? Many silent Turks do recognize this genocide and are not willing to defend the corruption and barbarism of Ottoman governments or the Young Turk regime, or the dishonesty of the current regime in Ankara. Kudos to them for their honesty and bravery!
As for Turkoglu's bravado "do not mess with Turkiye", don't worry, no one needs to mess with Turkiye. The Turks themselves have already messed with Turkey sufficiently. The economic miracle that Turkey is supposed to be can't muster more than a $900 billion economy with 70 million people, compared to Switzerland, for example, which is a more than $1 trillion economy with a fraction of the population. The Turkish army is always a silent threat to the civilian government. The Kurds are increasingly a problem that the Turks can't handle. The Kurds are being alientated politically. There is a high rate of functional illiteracy in rural areas which disadvantages the Turkish economy for many more years. Azerbaijan is increasingly dictating foreign policy to Ankara. Many in the European Union don't want Turkey to join the union. Cyprus is a thorn in Turkey's side. And Erdogan has alienated the Israelis. Etc. etc. So yes, do not mess with Turkiye. They can ruin their country just fine without outside help.
As for Erdogan's comments to Charlie Rose, that's to be expected. They are but a sample of the lies and ignorance that so many in Turkey have embraced for years. Turkey has been in decline for 300 years and apparently still has the Ottoman mentality that's necessary to continue to decline. Do not mess with Turkiye!
Happy New Year and Marry Christmas!!!
mark, you have no shame. killing Armenians and Kurds is a sport for you, isn't it? why don't you look at your dirty blood-filled history before you attack Armenians. It was your grandfather whp participated killing 2.5 million Armenians, 700,000Greeks, 467,000 Assyrians and about 100,ooo Albanians. And now your father is killing Kurds, my people. So, to conclude, keep your bloody hand away from the Armenians. you currently are playing with matches, and one small provacation and 20 million Kurds will stand up like a giant wall and oppose your Genocidal tendencies towards us.you hate every one who is a Kurd or an Armenian. you are a fool if you think you can trick here by your stupid comments.
Long live Kurdistan
Nice, good job, especially to those who took the effort to organize this as well as donate. Aprek.
Shanta Efendi,
Maybe you should listen to an expert on this matter, a source who can hardly be objectionable even to you folks, and then re-consider your poor analogies. Here is a summary of what the first prime minister of Independent Republic of Armenina, Kacthaznouni, said in his manifesto presented at the Dashnak congress in Bucharest in 1923.
Katchaznouni particularly states that he has come to his conclusions after a grave thinking process. The conclusions he has reached are not the result of superficiality or lack of will-power. He knows he will infuriate many. He calls on the delegates of the Dashnagzoutiun Conference to listen to him patiently, with no prejudice. As he is determining the boundaries of his report, he explains that he will examine the period extending from World War I to the Lausanne Conference, dividing it into certain phases from the point of view of the Armenian question and will focus on the role Dashnagzoutiun has played in this process.
The first Prime Minister of the Dashnagzoution Government makes the following observations:
— It was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
— They were unconditionally allied with Russia.
— They had not taken into consideration the balance of power which was in Turkey’s favour.
— The decision of the deportation of Armenians was a rightful measure taken by Turks to serve their purpose.
— Turkey had acted with an instinct of self-defence.
— The British occupation once more aroused the hopes of the Dashnags.
— What they established in Armenia was a Dashnag dictatorship.
— They had acted in pursuit of the imperialist demand,”From Sea to Sea” and had been provoked with this.
— They massacred the Muslim population.
— The Armenian terrorist acts were directed at winning over the Western public opinion.
— The fault was not to be found outside the Dashnagzoutiun Party.
— The Dashnagzoutiun Party had nothing else to do but commit suicide.
Yes, all these observartions were made by Katchaznouni, the first Prime Minister of Armenia and the founder of the Dashnagzoutiun Party.
Katchaznouni considers the essence of the Turkish-Armenian relations during the period of 1914-23 as a state of war. According to Katchaznouni’s evaluations, this war was actually between Turkey and the great imperialist powers. Katchaznouni does not make any evaluations that hold Turkey responsible, for he considers the Dashnags and their Armenian followers as one side of the war and Turkey as the other side. He concludes that in the face of Turkish victory, the Dashnagzoutiun Party has nothing else to do but dissolve itself.
Either this man who witnessed and lived through it all was blatantly lying, or you are. Truth can not be in the middle this time, and ignorance is no excuse.
Shantagizoum,
Do you have a problem in reading comprehension? Please read your original post, then re-read my response post citing the "Mexican" example, then re-read the post that you just submitted. Do you NOW see the problem with your new post?
Now, don't even get me started on dashnak Armenians by your ramblings of "evil" Turks (if we were as evil as you dashnaks have shamelessly, constantly and incorrectly tried to portray us throughout history, then why are there so many positive comments and compliments from some of the greatest minds and leaders in the world (Voltaire, Napoleon Bonaparte ("If the Earth were a single state, Istanbul would be its capitol!"), J. F. Kenndy, Mozart, Beethoven, Eisenhower, Macarthur, just to name a few)? How many operas and musical compositions did Mozart or Beethoven write in honor of, and as a tribute to, Armenians?)! I could litereally write at least a volume about dashnak Armenians in this site alone! Believe me, you and your dashnak friends wouldn't like it, since I could provide reams of proof (quotes, books, photos, documents, evidence of obvious dashnak Armenian forgeries (including several original pictures which were shamelessly altered using MS photoshop...yes, we have the originals to show the dastardly deed!)) which clearly show the 100-year old con job against the Christian nations of the world, just so you could get (and continue to receive) handouts in the form of foreign aid, and also to get these nations to do your dirty work for you. History proves that you dashnaks are certainly in no position to even make any kind of deragatory comments about us! This will be brought forth even further when the independent historical commission, written into the protocol agreements, are finished with their investigations of all of the archives (BTW, when exactly will the Armenian archives in Yerevan and Boston, MA be finally open to the public?)!
Since you started this needless argument, I'll leave you with quotes from two famous historical figures about Armenians:
"Armenians always were under the rule of different states of the various religions. Therefore, they have turned into cunning and cheating people, who can hide their thoughts, intentions and senses."
-- Alexandre Dumas
"Armenians, you are wild, murderers, villians, cowards and betrayers. You are the "Owl" that devestates our towns and villages. Despite it all, I do not reproach you, because you are Armenians!"
-- A.S. Pushkin
This issue has other repercussions for the Diaspora. Many Armenian women anticipate violent behavior from their Armenian husbands, even when these Armenian husbands are raised outside of the Armenian cultural base. This anticipation and fear causes problems in the marriage, even when the husbands are gentlemen. The result is that many Armenian women marry odars, and assimilated Armenian men marry odars after an unsuccessful marriage to an Armenian woman. If this trend continues, the Diaspora will disappear within a few generations. We are our own worst enemy.
What if no one person has all the right or wrong answers? What if we mute the noise in our minds and listen to our hearts? What if we consider some of the points raised by Mr. Akcam? What if we consider the opposite viewpoints? What if the very point of the article is to just consider with open minds and open hearts? What if the discussions are around round tables as opposed to square ones? What if it's not about choosing sides but choosing truth? God Bless!
Look, I think we can all find quotations or historical personalities that support our particular perspective on these issues. We have to be very careful in characterizing this through a Muslim/Christian eyeglass. Turkey's repressive policies toward minorities(Armenian,Kurd, Greek,Assyrian,etc) through several regimes(Sultanate, Ittihad and Republic) has had the singular objective of "purifying" Anatolia by ridding itself of all non-Turkiish peoples and cultures. The history has a clear trend. The method change..... isolated massacres, pre-meditated genocide, land grabbing,
cultural genocide and haraassment. Wha tkind of a society has a legal code such as 301. Not one
that encourages any type of cultural diversity.The Turkish presence in Anatolia is relatively recentand certainly much later than the historic presence of Greeks in northern and western Anatolia and the Armenians in eastern Anatolia. Forbidding the Kurds to teach their language and culture, the genocide is taboo, the Assyrians, the Pontic Greeks, the suffocation of the ancient Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic presence. Enough of debating the facts!!!! We get the point.Turkey
wants a homogeneous society in Anatolia. It's what Abdul Hamid,Talaat and Kemal had in common.
Successive Turkish governments may deny it, but the victims understand it. An Armenian diaspora, which the Turkish government considers a pain in the neck,was created as a result of this policy. Interesting irony!!!!
As Armenians,we need to be responsible citizens of this world and promote an end to oppression. We need to be focal about Darfur,Bosnia and the Kurds. It doesn't matter if the vistims are Christians, Muslims or whatever.... it's evil and we need to always promote the truth and tolerance.
One thing I think the Turkish government is realizing, however, the truth will always prevail and the quest for justice will not be silenced. We all anticipate the beginning of a new era in Turkish/Armenian relations. What's holding it up? Like in mostthings, it's not the common folks. It's
hard to move on, when there's a denier in our midst. The Turkish government needs to acknowledge the crimes of its predecessors and open a new era. It will set them free!!!! This is our prayer.
In my view people like Taner Akcam and Orham Pamuk(and others) should be viewed as positive role model in Turkey. They have brought honor to Turkey as Turks contributing to the greater society... be it academics or journalism. Forgetting our Armenian perspective, there work is a good thing for Turkey.The fact that they have not been received in an appropriate manner illustrates how far Turkey has to go. As Armenians, we need to encourage this type of civil society emerging inTurkey. We have much to learn as Armenians(especially in the diaspora) have had little contact with Turks for many years. We are neighbors and always will be. It is in our mutual interest to learn from each other. The objectives of our sacred Armenian Cause will nor be achieved without a meaningful engagement with Turkish society...civil, political, cultural, academic, etc. This must be our motivation and as the anger in our hearts subsides... perhaps, just perhaps, we may make a few friends. Our cause will be best served with commitment and a pure heart.
This is beautiful. When was the last time in the history of earth that the principle of self-determination was implemented without being "at the cost of the territory of an independent state"
The last time I checked , we haven't addedany new territory on earth. Of course, we could have a lot of fun with"the territory of an independent state". What were the 13 colonies in 1776? I guess their
exercising the principle of self-determinationwasat the expenseof Great Britain.... which I think was an independent state. Of course the fact that Karabagh was illegally ceded to Azerbaijan by the
notorious Stalin and followed Soviet due process to void that injustice .... is kind of important to this discussion.... and Azerbaijan continues to forget that piece of the story.
This whole thing is another Armenian experience that has nothing to do with right or wrong.......there was no issue of right or wrong at Avarayr. Did we deserve to be deported and murdered. How about the correctness of having a home of 3,oo years stolen.
This is about standing up with passion and political maturity and know when not to blink.
That's why the peopleof Karabagh are my heroes.They didn't blink. They kept there eyes on the goal.
They are the brothers and sisters of those at Avarayr and Saradarabat. Our negotiators must use different methods with the same spirit. I was at a lecture recently and a young professional from Armenia in the audience got up to speak. He wanted to comment on the panel's comments onthe various motivations Armenian had to fightfor Karabagh. He got up to say that the primary reason the Armenians fought was to PREVENT A SECOND GENOCIDE!!!!! Pretty Clear!!!!
Hardly worth to comment upon both of your posts,Robert(reminds me of Robert College in Istanbulla)and Murat .Since it seems even right here you are twisting the whole thing around.And I am not writing about the historical facts.YOU ROBERT commenced it all and you write or Murat rather write that I did. I did no such thing.I only merely quoted the international media w/rgd to recent Turkish repressions on Kurds, for you two -probably as yet- "mountain turks",that was in my FIRST POST.Just re read it please,right on top!!
Then your diatribes flowed in... easy please easy.We are neighbours now and have just recently signed a protocol so as your government will have diplomatic relations with r.of Armenia.Lift the barriers(shut frontiers) and begin civil relations reciprocally!!!!!
Armenia is all for it.Good neighbourly relations,why not .Just as we have with all other nations nearby or further away.Change is in the air,your government is by and by softening up,albeit in yet in the old style,"Yavash-yavash"..Just follow at least this old trend please...no need to get all burnt up! As to my being a Dashnag, you err tremendously, I am non-partisan,though I respect all(unlike as yet your government´stance) all political `parties,whether left or right,say like in France..O.K.
You must maintain calm when discussing political issues. Sometimes even be ready for compromises. You see, main world powers as well follow said fashion.You want a few examples?
Well then for you, a bit later,as I am to attend to other matters.
Shant (Efendi)? O.K. if that pleases you.
I think its about time,Greeks,Kurds,Armenians and all the people who are sufferend from the Turkish regime so much all this years to join their voices and their power against Turkey..They MUST pay for the crimes they did enouph its enouph..
Either Shant Efendi began New Year's celebrations early, or he is shell shocked when confronted with a bit of reality.
He made a whole bunch of claims, and all easily proven false, and now he has nothing to say.
He seems to think this is a political discussion. He thinks others must compromise when he claims the world is flat!
Typical Armenian self conscious syndrome
Stepan, I feel almost guilty as you make it so easy:
"Look, I think we can all find quotations or historical personalities that support our particular perspective on these issues. "
I did not give a quote. That was the history of WWI events from the Armenian point of view.
" Turkey’s repressive policies toward minorities(Armenian,Kurd, Greek,Assyrian,etc) through several regimes(Sultanate, Ittihad and Republic) has had the singular objective of “purifying” Anatolia by ridding itself of all non-Turkiish peoples and cultures. The history has a clear trend. cultural genocide and haraassment. "
One: Turkey and Ottoman Empire are not one and same (high school stuff!) Two: Historians have always characterized Ottoman rule as very tolerant of all races and religions. It was an empire composed of numerous millets. It gave birth to over two dozen nations, of all religions. How wrong can you be?
"Wha tkind of a society has a legal code such as 301. Not one"
In fact, I do not know of any state that does not have some kind of protection against national or religious symbols. Have you actually read 301, do you even know what it is?
"Turkey wants a homogeneous society in Anatolia. "
To some degree true, but so do almost all nations I know of, especially Armenia. That is why they are called nation states.
"It’s what Abdul Hamid,Talaat and Kemal had in common."
Abdulhamit was NOT a nationalist, just the opposite. Jeezzz.
"As Armenians,we need to be responsible citizens of this world and promote an end to oppression. We need to be focal about Darfur,Bosnia and the Kurds."
Such loving thoughts. How about starting in your own backyard: Karabag and Chechneya?
"it’s evil and we need to always promote the truth and tolerance."
Have you ever looked at what you and other have said here at all?
Dear Betty,
I loved this article. You always put the right words where they belong.
Anyone that doesn't have any Grandchildren or even Niece's & Nephew's don't understand how we Grandparents feel, it's a whole new ballgame.
Thank You for all your Wonderful Articles week after week. May You & Your Family have the Best of Health & Happiness for the Year 2010 and always.
Love,
Ann & George
Murat is laugh out loud funny! Is this a Turkish History lesson? The same Turkey that doesn't allow you to speak the truth about history under Penal Code 301.
Lets be honest here, there was no such thing as "Turkey" until after the Ottomon Empire failed with a well deserved bad and dark history...They then had to contrive a new image, new name, new history after 1920. Turkeys are in the Buzzard family which are part of the Vulture family, one of the ugliest, dirtiest birds around.
Greece is an ancient empire with roots far deeper than Turkey, they are the first and TRUE inhabitants of Cyprus and always will be.
Jewish, Moslem, Christians, etc out of Turkey are you stupid or just crazy?
Judiasm was the prevalant religion from which Moslem and Christianity was branched off of, in the kingdom of Canaan.
Quit trying to re write history or relgion to suit your pathetic history of killing.
And yes, some Armenian do have mongoloian blood because of the rapes and harems you forced our young women into. That is the woman that didn't kill themselves before they would allow the filth of your barbarian hands on them.
"Armenians are murderers because some tried to defend themselves"
Today there are over 70 million Turks, barely 10 million Armenians worldwide (3 million Armenians live in Armenia) in 1915 it was about 15 million Ottomans and 3 million Armenians. Hardly a match for the Mongolian Tribes from Mongolia,
So are the Kurds, Assyrians, Greeks, Balkans, Europeans, Israeli, Egyptians, etc., all Barbarian Murderers because they defended themselves against Ottomans/Turks?
So because we didn't want to be under the Yoke of the Ottoman, lose our culture, religion our history we are the bad guys? You would have a hard time convincing the world of this, every other country has declared the Armenian Genocide as truthful, 48 states in the USA have openly declared this.
Just because Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kryzgstan, Ubekistan are all predominately Turkish speaking doesn't mean that Armenia or Iran or Iraq or lebanon, or Syria (all nations that the Ottomons tried to put under their Yoke) have to be oppressed by a bunch of barbarians.
Murad everything from the Turks is stolen becuase it is a contrived ethnicity. Even your name Murad is from Arabic roots which means "desired"
You are all wrong the Assyrians ruled Cyprus first , then their Greek brothers came later.
I am part of the Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard. Murad spare us all the Turkish History Lesson, everyone knows that your history lessons are all censored by the Turkish government.
read this simple outline here and note that the Ottomans didn't come till much later.
Look under Modern History.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cyprus
Sadly, today's Turkish public has been brainwashed by the lies instituted by the leaders of the CUP 95 years ago to justify their greed and theft of the Armenians of Anatolia. The other reality is that the CUP leaders had nothing to do with religion or with the Turkish invaders of the 12th C....(not the 15th), except to use them as propaganda. Armenians lived in and supported the Seljuk and Ottoman Empires that rose on their land, for almost a thousand years. 1915 began an era of classic ethnic cleansing, put into motion by a group of people who knew very well that Armenians had something they wanted very badly. Most of the CUP leaders were tried and murdered for their crimes against humanity.
Murat, you must have gotten an A for effort on the debating team, but I hardly think your team ever won any matches. I am tempted to not respond, but why not.....
1. Your unverified quotes from the Armenian perspective are , at best, one view... certainly not
a "national position".
2. Please don't play word games. If Ottoman Empire wasn't Turkish dominated then we don't a real
basis for meaningfuldialogue. We all understand the Ottoman term verses the Republic of 1923,
but the point of Ottoman being viewed as a "Turkish Empire" is generally accepted. Besides, if it's
not Turkish, then we have been pointing the finger all these years at the wrong guys. You are
correct that the early years of the Ottoman millet model was viewed as enlightened. My
comments are pertaining to the late 19th and early 20th century corrupt and murderous
empire. By the 1870's it was a clear spiral and they took it out on the minorities. Quite a
change from the 15th -18th century.
3. The importance of 301 is how it is applied toTurkey's citizens and the defensive zeal that
created the need. No modern nation can justify a law that limits free speech. Indefensible.
4. What they have in common is the oppression their OWN CITIZENS. How vile when government
was created to protect its citizens. I feel the same way when freedom is restricted in Armenia.
5. I am sure you have become quite educated on our position on Karabagh. Simply stated,
Karabagh has been Armenian for centuries, Stalin ceded it to weaken both nations(as he did in
the Baltic states)and the liberation prevented a second genocide.
6. We have made mistakes as a people and I am certain have caused pain for others. Conflict is an
ugly process for all. Murat, my friend, you are dealing with a people that understand
oppression and survival very well. We have been loking at the wrong end of the knife for a long
time. For the Turks to deny the legitimacy fo the Armenians in eastern Anatolia and the Ararat
plains is not only criminal, but insulting to a people experienced the truth through suffering.
I hope that one day we can find a way to reconcile, but reconciliation has toalways be based on
the truth.
Stepan, that is what we say "cevir kazi yanmasin!"
Let me ask you something, does the fact that it is "illegal" to contradict the Armenian genocide myth in some countries bother you as much as 301?
I am really touched that so many Armenians are so concerned with freedoms in Turkey. Tears and all...
After all, Turkey is the place where conferences on this topic are held and no one has been jailed. Harassed, yes, but punished or jailed, no.
Poor Zar, do you know what Zar means? Possibly not. Do you know Murat (not Murad!) is a very common Armenian name also? Are they all thiefs too? Why do some people shout their ignorance and bigotry?
Hye, actually pity Murat... for he is a product of the Turkish leaderships who have lied, yes lied, to their own Turkish citizens... Lied about the history of the Turks, lied about the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians. These leaderships have agreed to agreements/didn't sign agreements, even more,
change the agreements after agreeing - to suit the Turks, only. Like playing a game of football or basketball and in the middle of the game - change the rules, to suit the Turk, of course! After hundreds of years Turks have not joined the civilized nations of the world. Bullying... Turk's style.
Manooshag
Murat, your logic escapes me. Perhaps that is why we are where we are. One group murdered and expelled... the other is a self-induced denial. Incredible that you see to believe that harassment is some type of "gold star" of good behavior. The conferences are a breath of fresh air, I'm not sure a denialist really supports the idea. The tolerence of such things by the establishment
is based on its public relations value. I'm probably giving too much credit by referring to tolerence.They are really a reflection of some dedicated and courageous people that I see as the future of Turkey.You should look at genocide recognition as an opportunity to lift the cloud hovering over your culture and a real chance to be respected. Your choice, your opportunity... but either way the truth will prevail.The trend is clear.
Uh, why was my post no posted? There was nothing in there to hurt anyone (as compared to what is being posted by some). That action was really low and unprofessional! I put a lot of thought, time and sincerity into writing that post. Tell me, did you feel during the "moderation" period for my post that it came too close to the truth that you couldn't take a chance on other dashnaks being exposed to reality and the truth itself? For your edification, this is known as censorship. This was a very cowardly act on your parts! But then again, what more can be expected from dashnak Armenians...you've been doing this sort of thing for the last century! Why should you change now? You know, I was actually beginning to believe that this was a decent and fair site, unlike the numerous other dashnak Armenian sites that won't ever allow a post from anyone other than an Armenian. Well, you succeeded in proving me wrong. This site is no different, and you are all still nothing but cowards! If you have any balls, you'll post this. Otherwise, you just keep proving over and over what the world has come to know you dashnak Armenians as...COWARDS!! I shall check back again tomorrow. As for your pathetic actions, all that can be said is...SAD!
Finally, elements of the truth are starting to trickle their way through the highly censored Turkish state. It will take a long tome though before the brainwashed Turks start discovering the truth, if that ever happens……………
In a daring statement, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan admitted for the first time that the expulsion from Turkey of tens of thousands of ethnic Greeks in the last century was a “fascist” act, Reuters reported.
Some commentators viewed Erdogan’s remarks as a reference to the expulsion of 1.5 million ethnic Greeks from Turkey to Greece in 1923. The large-scale population exchange between the two countries also included the transfer of more than 500,000 ethnic Turks from Greece to Turkey.
Other observers thought that Erdogan was referring to the pillaging of thousands of Greek shops and houses by Turkish mobs in Istanbul on Sept. 6-7, 1955, following the spread of false reports that Ataturk’s house in Thessaloniki, Greece had been burned down.
Beyond the expulsion of Greeks, Erdogan made an indirect reference to the tragic fate of other ethnic groups, such as Armenians, in Turkey. “For years, those of different identities have been kicked out of our country. … This was not done with common sense. This was done with a fascist approach,” Erdogan said on May 23, during the annual congress of the Justice and Development Party, held in the western province of Duzce.
“For many years,” Erdogan continued, “various facts took place in this country to the detriment of ethnic minorities who lived here. They were ethnically cleansed because they had a different ethnic cultural identity. The time has arrived for us to question ourselves about why this happened and what we have learned from all of this. There has been no analysis of this right up until now. In reality, this behavior is the result of a fascist conception. We have also fallen into this grave error.”
The Turkish prime minister’s candid remarks were harshly criticized by opposition parties. Onur Oymen, vice president of the main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP), said that associating Turkey’s history with terms like fascism based on hearsay was not right. He also said that no Turkish citizen had ever been expelled because of his or her ethnic background. Oktay Vural of the opposition MHP party added: “Erdogan’s words are an insult to the Turkish nation.”
In sharp contrast, liberal Turkish commentators praised Erdogan for his conciliatory remarks: “For the first time you have a prime minister who wants to admit that mistakes were made in the treatment of religious minorities. This is historic,” wrote journalist Sami Kohen in Milliyet. “But whether this rhetoric will be followed with deeds remains to be seen.”
Hurriyet Daily News added: “Erdogan’s speech was historic; it was the first time that a high official accepted there have been unlawful and undemocratic practices against minorities in the past. This sentiment was echoed by Professor Halil Berktay in Vatan newspaper: ‘That statement was the most courageous thing ever said by Erdogan.’ Baskin Oran, another academic well-known for his liberal views, told Star newspaper that he was ‘proud of a prime minister who denounces ethnic and religious cleansing.’”
CNN-Turk news director Ridvan Akar was more skeptical about Erdogan’s true intentions. He wrote in Vatan: “Minority rights as well as those of religious foundations are a structural problem within the Turkish state. Of course, Erdogan has taken a step forward with this declaration. But the sincerity of his words will depend on facts to back them up, such as the restitution of rights to those who have been expelled, the return of confiscated properties, or compensation.”
The prime minister’s statement is encouraging, if it is an indication that Turkey’s leaders have finally decided to face the ugly chapters of their country’s past.
However, it would be wrong to draw overly optimistic conclusions from this single statement. Erdogan has made similar comments about the Kurds in Turkey, only to have their hopes dashed by taking unexpected repressive measures against them.
The fact is that Erdogan is not the master of his political domain. The “fascists” he attacks are not buried in an Ottoman historical grave, but are alive and well in Turkish society and occupy the highest echelons of the military and judiciary.
Yet, Erdogan is politically shrewd enough to realize that his condemnation of fascism will resonate at home and in the West, and win him accolades and support against his powerful domestic opponents.
Erdogan’s battle against the ghosts of the Turkish past is in fact a fight for his political survival against those in today’s Turkey who view him and his Islamic party with deep suspicion, and are determined to counter his every move, ultimately seeking his downfall from power.
Thank you, Amberin Zaman, for this article! I read the Economist columns on Turkey regularly. I am happy to know you are their author.
Ferhat,
There can be no peace without justice. When your people decide that there must be justice for the Assyrian, Armenian, Yezidi and Greek people based on the following conditions, then whatever your aspirations are will come to pass. Armenian, Assyrian and Yezidi and Greek villages that existed before the massacres of the 1890's will be repopulated with them and have their agricultural lands restored to them. All Cultural and religious buildings AND sites of buildings will be given back to their respective communities. This includes bulldozed sites, converted buildings into mosques and sites with mosques put in place of churches and monasteries ( prominent site would be Narek monastery destroyed and a mosque put in its place, south of Lake Van) Every ethnic group would have soveirgnty over their land and it would be impossible to change the ethnic status of lands. It would be a "checkerboard" federation for all of Anatolia and Thrace. No more kidnapping of Christian or Yezidi or Alevi women and forcible conversions to Islam. Human rights must be respected. If your nation can agree to those terms and carry them out, You can have your Kurdistan, Armenians can have their Armenia, Assyrians can have their Assyria, Greeks can have their Greece and Turks can have their Turkey. The history of Turks and Kurds in Anatolia has been one of stealing- lives and property. If your people can lead on the ideals of giving back to those you have stolen from, your liberation movement will be successful. It's amazing what doing the right thing can do.
This is yet another anti-Armenian, anti-truth and justice piece by Amberin.
Mr Kevork ,are we reading the same article? I am against the protocols myself, but I do not understand the anger. many Armenians supporting the protocols, as well as most Turkish leftists and progressives whose articles appear here, have not been saying much different.
Great article Amberin.
I love Ms. Zaman's article. Her wisdom transcends her youth. If the majority of Turks were to adopt her views, reconciliation between the two nations would become reality.
Four decades, the Turkish state was waging a war against Armenians, and Germany and Great Britain in those days were supporting the Turkish Government. Now, Turkish state is waging its sixth war against the Kurdish People and Kurdish Sprit. Nowadays, the United States of America and the Republic of Armenia are supporting the new criminal regime in Turkey.
Is the following pro-Armenian, pro-truth and justice to you???
"Turkey’s continued insistence on linking the establishment of diplomatic ties and the re-opening of its mutual borders with Armenia to the latter’s withdrawal from at least some of the seven regions it OCCUPIES around Nagorno-Karabagh...ROBBED TURKEY of a potential mediating role...And what of AZERBAIJAN'S CRIES OF TREASON? Did the government not foresee these?...It is hard to imagine not. Viewed from Armenia’s perspective, the entire normalization process is nothing more than a ploy calculated to prevent President Barack Obama from using the “G-word” and from the American Senate and the House of Representatives from approving a bill labeling THE EVENTS OF 1915 as genocide...Should Armenia back away from the protocols, this would ALLOW TURKEY TO CLAIM THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...So CAN TURKEY CLAIM A BIG DIPLOMATIC VICTORY? In the short term, PERHAPS. But for how long? YES, ARMENIA IS A SMALL COUNTRY. Yes, it doesn’t have oil or precious minerals. And YES, AZERBAIJAN IS MORE IMPORTANT IN CERTAIN WAYS..."
I think not!
Amberin engages in genocide denial (the terms "people whose forebears were brutally massacred...the mass destruction of the Armenians" are certainly not synonymous with the terms "the genocide...the Armenian genocide"!), encourages a pro-Azeri solution to the Karabakh conflict and lobbies the Turkish Parliament to ratify the one-sided protocols (aka "Ethical Diplomacy").
Kevork, have you given any thought to the possibility that she is not writing this article to make you perfectly happy, she is writing it to convince turkish policy makers. i do not think she can do both successfully. i do not see any genocide denial here either.
Ms Zaman blames Armenians for Turkish intransigence on Protocol ratification. What a convenient formula for anti-establishment Armenians to adopt; simply blame Sargsyan for being tricked. Rather, it was Turkey who insisted on post factum gating ratification with Protocol-exclusive issues, not Armenia. This was a failing of Turkish diplomacy for it assumed automatic Armenian capitulation on the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh. Turkey has paid further for unilaterally engaging Armenia assuming Azerbaijan has no short-term memory loss, no matter what Armenia does now.
It is interesting how Turkey used the Protocols to delay further genocide recognition -- an anti-ethical diplomatic move -- yet it is suggested Davutoglu engage in mythical“Ethical Diplomacy”. It is Armenia who has and can continue to intensify the rhetoric with no loss in prestige.
A lot can happen between now and April 2010. Regional dynamics and the confluence of intention between the US, Russia, and EU will not simply disappear because it is ignored by analysts. These three guarantors can easily intensify the pressure that originally resulted in these Protocols.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Are we serious? Have we come to a point to label vicdan (conscience, in Turkish) as the real issue?
Stepan,
My logic and principle is simple I thought. Respect for truth, simple and naked truth. I find your viewpoint shifting on the other hand and conflicting often.
While you acknowledge that topic of tehcir/genocide is freely discussed from all points of view in Turkey for a while now, then you lement on the lack of all such freedoms and how it is illegal to even mention it. Which is true?
An open discussion is just that, a discussion, and does not mean wholesale acceptance of your viewpoints and myths. If the facts were to support your view, then discussion would have ended decades ago.
More importantly where is the Armenian Akcam?
In this respect, Republic of Turkey has morally much more urgent issues and sins to address rather then sorting out the ghosts of the Ottoman past. Most specifically, the treatment of its Greek minorities during 50s for example. That is a true stain on the "vicdan" of the current regime and I am hoping Erdogan finds the support and strength to make some meaningful gestures to erase the shame of savagely expelling some of its valued citizens in a fit of nationalistic paranoia.
I also hope that in some future, the Christian culture once again flourishes in the lands that it was born.
That does not mean I turn a blind eye to fabrications, falsehoods, blood feud and ethnic hatred (disguised as search for justice and truth) aimed at Turkey.
Turkish society has come a long way exposing its skeletons in the closet. It is done not for its propaganda value as some sceptics claim, but it is a natural occurence as a result of gained national confidence and dissolution of the state of mind entrenched mostly as a result of the traumas of Balkan-WWI-Independece Wars. What have Armenians done?
When will we realise that the turks hate the Armenians more than we dislike them?They do not even let our dead lie in peace.This is not only about 1915, a lot has happened since that no one talks about.As to our dead,look at what they have done to our cemeteries in Northern Cyprus, Nachichevan(since they consider the azeris their brothers) and in Anatolia. Go and see and then you will realise that these people know nothing about humanity.
Y do so many people care..?.If he is going to be an Armenia and do nothing for Armenia but going against it for Russian benefit, then he might as well remain Russian or Jewish...Being an Armenian is not just by looks, nose or by genes....It's by actions...U can be an Armenian only if u take pride in being so and only if u are going to work for the benefit of the Armeian nation......Now if Medvedev is not going to be any of these, then it's more a disgrace than honour to concider him to be an Armenian......I took no pride in Gagik Chilingarov (The speaker of the Russian Parliament) being an Armenian coz he rather claimed he wasn't.....Now I don't want to accept this man in my nation either.....So no use of argueing.....I hope he is not an Armenian coz it will just add to our worries....But that's just me and I don't know how many of u agree with me....
I'm sorry that should have been Arthur Chilingarov and not Gagik...
It escaped many...she wwrites "in FACT THEY ARE OUR PEOPLE..."
She must remember that similar to Ottoman Turks the Nort African moorish Khaliphates had also conquered what is No called Spain and occupied it for 600 and more years...
Does that mean that the spaniards "ARE THEIR PEOPLE"...?
Armenians ,like any other freedom loving people have the God Given Right to be iNDEPENDENT OF conquerers, occupiers.She repeats like all other turkish intellectuals , the word "Anatolia",not even mentioning ex-Western Armenia!!!!
Hard-liner(s) me? no I point out what was is and will be forever Armenian !!
Witness Aghtamar Vank(Monastery) on Lake VAN, 11 centuries old,built by King Gagik of Armenia . Professor Richard G.Hovanissian couple yrs ago toured Western ARmenia in company(actually invited )of a turkish intellectual based in the U.S. and gathred relics of Armenian churches,monasteries etc., and showed them on large screen while delivering discourses of recent ARmenian history.He was silently pointing to the turkish public(also present<) that Armenians HAD LIVED THERE NOT TOO LONG AGO for centuries. AS to NK Artsakh, (Nagornyi Karabagh)our quest for liberating further Shahumian( a district of North NK) failed.Why even Gandzak nowadays called "Ganja" by Azerbaijan is also 100% Armenian,So if Azerbaijan wishes to receive back some of the 7 regions,it has to trade in said TWO Provinces.
So please have above in mind when speculating diplomatic give and take ,argument-exchange.
Shantagizoum
I did not find this article offensive. For years, those of us who are descendants of the victims of the genocide have referred to ourselves as "Turkish Armenians" . We denounce the Ottoman Turks for murdering their own citizens. Given that, why is it so difficult to accept that the author would view
descendants in current Armenia as "our people"....that is people from Anatolia. I thought it was a supportive gesture outlining the historical relationship.
Look, if we as Armenians are going to be publically serious about engaging the world in our cause, then we need to learn how to dialogue with those who have acquired a different perspective(some of Turkish society). We have spent so many years debating and arguing with ourselves that we don't realize that the curtain has gone up and we are on the world stage. Listening and learning from
others will help our cause.
I'm assuming all those violent protesters fighting, kicking, and screaming against the Iranian regime are just cult worshipers, confused, suffering from psychological complexes, forgetting about Mousavi's 'clerical' past. Savage African tribesmen, right?
Oh how good it feels to be on the side of democracy.
By the way, I was reminded of this discussion today and a question came to me: if Levon Ter-Petrosyan is a liar, and intelligent people such as yourselves could see through his thin layer of rhetoric for what he really was: A quasi-Jew/Turk attempting to overthrow the regime so he could get fat...again -- then why didn't Robert Kocharian open up the airwaves and media and let Levon speak for himself, as they did for the other opposition candidates? Considering there was such a credible case against him, why did Robert Kocharian and Serge Sarkisian feel the need to organize a massive media campaign that included everything from unpleasant video edits of the former president's posture, to pundit-analysis on Levon's ulterior motives?
Armenia cannot remain in the Azerbaijani territories it still occupies by shreer military force. Such an aggression is against human rights, democracy, international law and ethcis. Armenia must vacate the invaded Azeri soil and enable the Turkish parliament to ratify the protocols. Otherwise, protocols will fail, Armenia will go bankrupt, Russia will take over and Turkey and Russia will have to solve the problems of Karabakgh and the million Azeri refugees. Armenia, land-locekd, poverty-stricken, corrupt and violent, is in no position to bargain. Genocidse claims should be left up to the committee of historians after the protocols. This is the only way Armenia can survive as an independen nation. Otherwise we will be dealing with an irrelevant, distant province od Russia in an insignificant manner. These are the hard facts. The rest is wishful thinking.
One has to be totally disconnected from reality if one thought the protocols can move forward without even a symbolic movement on the Karabag issue.
It may have never been written down, but surely these people have brains. Turkish Government needs a cover, otherwise Karabag issue is for Azeris and Armenians to solve. It is inconceivable though that Turkey will fail to ignore and ackonwledge the wrong done to a close ally while holding a hand out to a sworn enemy.
A UN member's recognized borders were violated, ethnic cleansing was implemented against all known norms and treaties. Why Armenia is allowed to carry this outrage when the whole World was galvanized to kick Saddam out of Kuwait is beyond me.
Just imagine all nations trying to re-write and re-enact history to correct all the wrongs done to them throughout history! Where would it end, who draws the line?
"It is a fact. My father said so, my grandmother said so, Arnold Toynbee said so, Ambassador Morgenthau said so, the front pages of the New York Times said so, and State Department documents said so."
Is it not precious!? Not a single proof of a policy of exterminations but just stories and fabrications. Morgenthau has never set foot outside of Istanbul, did not speak Turkish and all his information came from his Armenian handlers who were eager to get USA involved militarily. Was it not America who funded most of the pro-Armenian missionries and schools? Toynbee, well, did he not later in life admit to fabrications for the purpose of propaganda? After all, they were at war with Sick Man of Europe at the time, and it was not going that well. Was he not employed by the British propaganda agency? Did he not write his book in 1916, almost before the events happened?
Well, my grandfather told how Armenians raped and pillaged the Eastern provinces and joined invading Russians with their weapons their country gave them to defend it with. He told how they even more brutally murdered any dissenters among them. He was there and witnessed it forst hand. No one ever receieved any orders to kill cibilians. His own family tree was cut down in Bitlis though, where Armenians committed large scale atrocities. All this must also be true, since I have no relatives from his side and after all "grandpa told me"!
Armenia has been living in conditions worse than what it is today -- it has managed to survive.
It is the fastest growing economy, oil-rich, and no economic blockades, with a military three times the size of Armenia that seems to have 20% of its land be "occupied" by a...what did you say?...'irrelevant, distant province of Russia."
Imagine what we're going to do to do to you after your oil runs out.
"Outside forces." I don't know whether we sound like them, or they sound like us.
The most interesting thing to me is that Ms. Zaman has long been The Economist magazine's Turkish correspondent, and I can't help but recall that the magazine has been downright unfriendly to Armenians for well over two decades, if not for its (The Economist's) entire existence. By the way, why the sudden interest around the world in Turkish - Armenian "reconciliation"? The answer lies primarily in what Russia and the West believe they are going to get out of it. Too bad that no government leader in Armenia has never pointed this out publicly so that the populace would be better informed and intellectually armed.
"This smacks of hypocrisy." Speaking of hypocrisy. Ms Zaman has long argued for Turkey to unilaterally open its air and sea ports to Greek Cypriot planes and ships in order to appease the Greek Cypriots. Why not advise the same to Armenia?
Correct me if I am wrong but did not Kurds and Armenians butcher each other in 1914-15?
Murat,
I understand we come from countries and peoples that have had a great deal of historic animosity toward each other. But in order for us to solve our problems, we must first understand the position of the other. Not accept it, but 'understand' it -- so that we can respond to it.
Armenia did not 'invade' Kharabagh or Azerbaijian to conquer it. The Nagorno-Karabagh Supreme Soviet Council voted to reunify with Armenia, Moscow rejected the legislation, and in 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the vast majority of the people of Kharabagh (85% being Armenian), decded they want to leave Azerbaijian, in the same way Azerbaijian decided they wanted to leave the Soviet Union.
In turn, the Azeri army began marching towards Kharabagh -- and considering our past experience with the Turks and Azeris (Sumgait might ring a bell), I think a certain amount of panic was due. The people of Kharabagh called for help from their 'mother country' -- and the mother country responded. Not only because they felt a certain bond with the Kharabagh Armenians, but also because they felt that if the Azeri army was victorious in Kharabagh, they would march on the Yerevan (as many Azeri generals were claiming they would within a weeks time).
In the same way that Turkey views Azerbaijian as a friend and since "...it is inconceivable though that Turkey will fail to ignore and ackonwledge the wrong done to a close ally while holding a hand out to a sworn enemy..." Armenia views Nagorno-Kharabagh. Just because it doesn't have an internationally recognized status doesn't mean we can't treat the people there as if they matter.
The issue of us sending our army into Azerbaijian -- which, I admit, we did -- is directly tied to the above. Failure to understand it only means the end of conversation.
Great player and a great game. I played DIII Lacrosse during my college years and 4 of my cousins played DI. There are enough Armenian-American lacrosse players from NY, Mass, NJ to help get a team going in Armenia.
I'd like to congratulate you, Mr. Dereyan, for this interview and story. I am glad to see young writers make their mark in the Weekly!
Turks argue that they have every right to "link" their relations with Armenia to a solution of the Artsakh issue since that issue affects the Turks' "brethren" in Azerbaijan.
Armenia could just as well argue that it has every right to "link" its relations with Turkey to a solution of the Cyprus issue since that issue affects Armenia's Greek and Armenian Christian "brethren" in Cyprus.
My point is, even among some Armenians, and certainly among non-Armenians, there is a tendency to simply accept the arguments that Turkey makes - such as the one about Artsakh - without asking whether the argument has a valid basis. Armenia's Foreign Ministry really does a miserable job of waging a war of information against Armenian adversaries. It did a miserable job when Oskanian was FM and nothing has changed.
Mattie Fein's credentials to run for Congress in the 36th District are dubious. For one thing, she does not have the interests of the district at heart. Besides, she & husband Bruce Fein (The Lichfield Group) represent the world's most vicious terrorist group, the Tamil Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE). This group perfected suicide bombing, used child soldiers, killed thousands of civilians, and is known to have links to Al Qaeda.No wonder Bruce Fein wants Fusion Centers closed down. The Fusion centers are where Homeland Sec. & other agencies exchange information to catch terrorists. Bruce Fein is accused by one faction of the LTTE operatives in the US of disappearing with monies he raised under the pretense of getting the LTTE off the terrorist list. Very dubious people. Armenians, don’t be fooled!!
Henry, my father told his children and had made an audio of his escape from Turkey. Hiding, after running away from his physically abusive Kurdish boss, he hid outside the village locateded in Kigi and witnessed the Turkiish military in the Kurdish Armenian village looking for Armenians. After the the troops left the village my father went back. His grandmother, he did not find nor his eldest sister. He was told by the Kurds of the village his mother and very young brother went to Kharpert with the help of village Kurds. He traveled day and night thru the dangerous forest arriving at his mothers stepmothers house. With the help of the Kurdish friends they were able to escape. I was recently told by a Kurd that all the Kurds in my father's village were killed for helping Armenians. Also, in case you didn't know there are Armenians now living as Kurds. Please tell the whole story.
MURAT, how can a country so militarily successful be so weak when it came to Armenians? The paranoid Sultan Hamid hated Armenians so much that he put many to death during the late 1800's which included babies and children. You and your grandfather are guilty of insulting Turkishness by insinuating Turkey and Turks are weak compared to Armenians. Where is your outside proof. Give us examples of the news articles from other country archives to prove your point. Armenians can and have prooved it. Non Armenian books and newspaper articles from the world prove it for the Armenians. I will be waiting for your answer Murat.
There are just too many snippets in this piece by Zaman that demonstrate her anti-Armenian slant. This confirms what I have seen of her when her work runs in the LATimes.
She does seem to have a more enlightened approach than most of Turkish society, and certainly Turkey's establishment and government.
That being said, as has often been pointed out in recent years, the fact that some Turk-- intellectual, writer, activist, whatever-- makes interesting comments/noises DOES NOT mean he/she is pro-Armenian. Simply, that person is contributing to the maturation of Turkish society, serving (quite naturally) Turkish interests. Armenian issues are understandably incidental to that person.
This process is barely at a toddler stage. It had come along further in the 1890s and 1900s, but the 1909 counterrevolution, the Armenian Genocide, WWI, and Kemal's republic created such a rupture for Turks with their own history and development that they've effectively had to start anew.
All this is critical for us to know and understand so we can engage our Turkish counterparts. In this respect, the recent role taken on by The Armenian Weekly, of providing a forum for non-lunatic, non-Pan-Turkic (Turanic), Turkish voices, is truly commendable and beneficial to our incomplete liberation struggle.
Im sure our boy Dodi Gago in Yerevan can get these guys together and have ourself our own national lacross team. Thats what happen with our Rugby team. A bunch of Armenians from France grouped together and created the Armenian national rugby team and have been very successful. Armenian team is currently not yet officially ranked by IRB but soon will be. We are one of the best teams and can be ranked top 20 easily. Going back to Lacrosse, Armenians have great potential and are talented people. It would be a positive factor in contributing to Armenian sports.
David, you should know better.
This is as much about starategic calculus as about brotherhood etc. Cyprus issue does not have the fraction of a fraction of importance strategically for Armenia as the Karabag issue has for Turkey. This issue has been seriously damaging Turkey's relationship with two neighbors, costing economically and politically and has implications for Turkey's relationship with another even more important neighbor, Russia! Turks and Azeris actually share a culture, religion and language! Just imagine the internal pressure on any Turkish government which tried to ignore this. How can you possibly compare the two?
This is about cost benefit. This is about making a compromise. This is about wrong done to a large number of Azeris and making even a small meaningful gesture in their direction.
After all, is that not what so many of you preach here?
If you really think this is just a matter of Christian vs barbarian, one propaganda machine vs another, then you have completely failed to understand the dynamics here.
Thanks for the info Ranjith. Fein is covered in blood money.
To "fair observer."
I am with you 100%. But you left out Turkish mighty military occupying Northern part of Cyprus and almost 100% of Kurdish, Greek and Armenian territories.
So, your false blanket as a "fair observer," did not make sense at all. In all honesty, you are a Turk, and don't try to compare a handful of Armenian freedom fighters (about 900 according to British intelligence) , who successfully repelled and beat 23,000 Azeri soldiers, 2,300 Turkish volunteers and 3,989 Afghan terrorists, plus you asked the greatest terrorist the world has ever known, Shamil baseyev, who saidly proclaimed that his "only" defeat was at the hands of the Artsakh Armenians. Now you proclaimed to the world tht you are a fair observer. Are you serious? Your "mighty" army is killing Kurdish civilians right at this moment, what is your answer to them? And be thankful to the generous Armenian people, they allowed you to post a anti-Armenian post on an Armenian website. I have tried repeatedly to post one single post on a turkish website, but was never allowed. You tell me who is fair, the turks or the Armenians.
Your foolhearted attempt to show us that you are a "fair observer" made you look like a comlete fool.
If you really are a fair observer, why don't you ask your Islamic friends (erdogan) to vacate my Kurdistan and the rest of the Greek and Armenian occupied lands?
Listen, the territories which is reclaimed by the Armenians belonged to the Armenians, your uncle Stalin presented it to the turks.
I will wait for your answer.
Ferhat, a proud Kurd
Arm Weekly, be kind and allow this post to appear so that mr "fair observer" reveals his turkic stupidity.
Murat
turks have killed, and mind you the Genocide was premeditated, 2-3 millions of Armenians, about 700,00 Greeks, 128,000 Assyrians, about 500,000 Albanians and now about 40,000 innocent Kurdish people.
turks were and still are known to be the most barbaric people on planet earth. Stalin killed 30 million, Hitler 6-7 million and your people about 50 million after they arrived here from the central asian deserts.
Armenian Weekly keeps removing my posts, because they are nice people and don't want to antagonize backstabbing turks like you.
Your ancesters killed between 2-3 million Armenians..period. Accept it like a man, be a man and bring honor to your people.
To Nerses:
They don't hate us. They have contempt for us. Much like a Nazi has for a Jew. Which is far more dangerous for our existence. They destroy our material culture for many reasons but most of all it's the psychological pain of their identity crisis. They are the products of kidnapped and raped Armenian women. They are the children of Armenians. I'm not saying just from 1915 but for centuries before that. Very little turkish blood runs thru a mohamadean's veins.
In the recent past those who are the worst Armenian haters are Ergenakon members of Armenian descent. It's a well known pyschiatric problem. The best known case of self loathing was that of the inquistor general of the spanish inquistion Torquemada who was of jewish descent. Turkic identity crisis can only be relieved by the complete destruction of all things Armenian.
To nyoped:
You are wrong. Kurds and Armenians did not butcher each other. Sunni Kurds butchered Armenians. If any kurds died at the hands of an Armenian it was self defense. The power dynamics between Christians and mohamadeans was squarely in the mohamadean corner. The story of Armenian-Kurdish interactions is long and complicated. Sunni Kurds lived like parasites off of the Armenian, Yezidi, and Assyrian peasantry. Christians lived as serfs. (Yezidis were hunted as sport, photos would be taken much like a hunter today would do of his prized kill.) The problems grew worse in the early 19th century when the population exploded, severe famines and turkish government programs of settling the semi nomadic kurds on Armenian, Assyrian and Yezidi lands. Kurds are not indigenous to the Armenian Highlands by the way. Their native lands are only in Iran.
Hye, Manas Boujikian,
I know I speak for many when I say 'thank you' for the handsome donation to the ANCA team who maintain the Armenian 'voice' in our nation's capitol. Your dedication and understanding of the
support required for ANCA to continue in their dedicated efforts is outstanding.
Grassroots, across the nation, whether large or small donations, make the difference for ANCA - for your support to continue their ongoing pursuit for Hai Tahd.
Historically,and into today, we Armenians are an extraordinary people, wherever we are in the world.
Today we are bound to our Covenant, a Covenant which was passed from our Martyred to our Surviviors and now to us - our generations today, which we seek to uphold. Justice. Justice for the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation by the Ottoman Turks. And into today, as subsequent Turkish leaders who, knowing the truths, are in denials - still.
But more - bones of our unburied slaughtered keep watch of a Turkey... knowing that Turkey shall never be able to become a member of the civilized nations of the world until Turks today admit guilts for their crime of Genocide of the Armenian nation - and the reparatiions due and owing to all the generations from the 1890s to 2010. Genocide continues until resolved by the victim nation...
Manooshag
"other nations, such as the United States, don’t allow their citizens to carry another passport if they’re American first. The only way a person can be a dual-citizen in America is if their American passport is their secondary passport."
Patently untrue.
An Armenian born in America who becomes a naturalized citizen of Armenia does not have to do anything to maintain U.S. citizenship. The bottom line in losing US citizenship is to renouce it before a US consular official or become a policy level official in Armenia. Heck you could even be in the Armenian Army as long as you are not part of the government making policy.
If you are an American Armenian and you are very good in a certain sport you could participate in European competitions at your own expense naturally.
Does a US citizen have to tell anyone about the Armenian citizenship? NO
Do you lose US citizenship? NO
On the US side of the equation nothing is required. absolutely nothing. All you have to do is get citizenship from Armenia.
Murat:
I do mean relocation, albeit temporary. A sunni turkish state in the desert region of Konya. About 11,000 square miles will suffice. Living an authentic turkish life in yurts. Preparation for a new life in turkmenistan and kazakhstan. As to what I get right, it's all of the time, the proof of that is you have not refuted anything I have written. If you try, I have all the answers to explain turkish sophistry. You need to go back to turkish propaganda class for some retraining. You are a bit rusty in the rhetorical baloney of genocide denial. Every turkish construct against the Armenian genocide or Armenian history is pure fiction. Laughable in fact once deconstructed / analysed. The turkish ethos seeks to destroy everything Armenian. It is part of what I call turkic identity crisis. The turks who spend time fighting Armenians are actually the children of Armenians. The Ergenekon group is an excellent example. Many of the leaders are of Armenian descent. Abdul Hamid II's mother was Armenian. He orchestrated the mass murder and forced conversions of 500,000 Armenians during his reign. So Murat, I would probably venture you are a child of an Armenian! So embrace your non-turkishness Murat and end your contempt of Armenians and contempt of all things Armenian. But then what will you do with yourself?
Simply Put, Zaman is in Fallacy that Tirkish politics can be based on Vicdan. What Vicdan? when they have ever had Vicdan towards anyone?
This paragraph from Sassounian's November 17th article explains it all.
"We now have solid evidence that these Turkish officials were not making an idle boast when they indicated that signing an agreement means nothing to them. In the Oct. 25 issue of Today’s Zaman, commentator Ercan Yavuz cited dozens of examples of agreements signed—but not ratified—by Turkey after the passage of many years! At present, there are 146 agreements with 95 countries, including Argentina, Azerbaijan, Libya, Slovenia, Sweden, and Syria, awaiting the approval of the parliament’s Foreign Affairs Commission. The oldest—an agreement signed 26 years ago between Iraq and Turkey—is still pending ratification by the Turkish Parliament. Many other important agreements have been signed since 2004, but still not ratified!"
Eenemy of my enemy ss my friend.
When that is the basic principle you have dealing with neighbors and other people, then one is doomed to be stuck in no man's land.
PKK is not a matter of political freedoms. There is areason why for thousands of years Kurds have never manged to manage their affairs and never made any smallest contribution to the region.
All DTP was concerned with was the well being of Apo. After all the effort and compromises it took to take them to the parliament as their own party, they did nothing productive other than protect terrorists, speak on their behalf , provoke the average Turk and try to have Apo lead them from his jail cell. No other state would have tolerated it as much as Turkey did. It is a miracle no civil war broke out and it says much about the society.
It is true that compromiseis a requirement for the peaceful settlement of conflict. The Turks continue to press that a linkage to the Karabagh conflict is valid. Armenia(publically)) continues to respond that no pre-conditions to the protocols is the deal. In compromise,each party negotiates for an asset that is high enough value to them for what they are going togive up.What are the Turks giving up? To honor us with an open border, which they closed? To end a blockade that is intended to injure Armenia? If the Turks are serious about changing the rules, then they need to put something on the table that is of equal value to Armenia. The openingof the border and diplomatic relations are a given. This is what civilized nations do. If they are asking Armenia to compromise on the only leverage point it has, then Turkey needs to offer something of equal value.....something that will pain
them as much as Armenia giving up buffer territory. There is one thing they can do and that is to publically tell truth on the Genocide to the world, but more importantly to their own people and to the Armenians. If they are going to hit at the heart of Armenia and Karabagh's security and expect us to trust them(with third party guarantees) , then they need to deal with the truth and prepare for the implaications of denial. We all know that the Turks have more fear of reparitins and restitutions than of recognition. Their fear will be eased as they begin to deal with the truth.
Glad I read your story. It was uplifting, compassionate and joyfull.
It is what the present bland environment needs.
It gave reason and purpose as to why God made us Armenian.
Cheers!!!!
Dino
you are right. remember, we accepted our complicity in the Genocide. here on this respectful website, I as a Kurd, ask my Armenian friends forgiveness for the wrongs my grandfathers did to your ancesters, joining the turks and killing innocent Armenians. I know I cannot talk for them, but their ignorance and their religion made them an easy catch for the turks to use us for their purposes. turks will never apologize, because you and the whole world knows that they have no shame nor honor. whatever belonged to the Armenians will and must be returned to them. most of historical Armenia (west of current day Armenia) is populated by Turks and a few Kurdish tribes. we will move on when asked, the problem are the Genocidal Turks, their hands are washed in blood, pure red blood of innocent and helpless Armenians who were butchered by these animalistic turks.
you said it so right. turks have used us Kurds to do their dirty work, we fell for that trick, it will, however not work again. we saw the face of our alleged friend, the turk, once they were done with you, they turned their back on us, killing 30,000 innocent kurds and rising. they think that we hate Amenians, their propaganda machine is working overtime putting down the Armenians, but trust me when I tell you that today in Diyarbekir, not one single Kurd sees the Armenian as the enemy, the only enemy we see is the bloodthirsty turk.
Dino, I bow my head and ask forgiveness from all 9 million Armenians worldwide. I am ashamed.
But the future will be brighter and our friendship will last.
and as I said in many of my posts here: DO NOT TRUST A TURK, THEY HAVE NO HONOR NOR SHAME, AND THEY WILL STRIKE YOU AGAIN AND AGAIN. STAY AWAKE!!!!!!!!!
Sentiments like the ones on this board is ample proof that we Armenians will forever remain a bunch of backward peasants. It is in great part because of people like Chilingarov, Lavrov and Poghosian (and many-many Armenians like them we don't even hear about) that Russia has close relations with the Armenian state. Wake up and realize that a Caucasus without a strong Russian presence is a Caucasus without an Armenian presence. Without Russia we today would not only be lamenting Western Armenia we would also be lamenting the lose of the Armenian nation in the Caucasus. We Armenians have a real chance to be in Russia what Jews are in America, yet take a look at the ignorance of our people. It would be a great psychological victory for us against Turks, not to mention it being a matter of great international PR, if Mr. Medvedev was Armenian by ancestry. I would also like to say that I lament that my nation has not given (and will probably never give) birth to a man like Vladimir Putin.
History continues to repeat itself. Oppression, olive branches and then a resumption of the same pattern. Sound familiar....Armenians Greeks,Assyrians,Kurds. Great message to the EU. No surprise. We've seen all this before,but it will be interesting to see how the Western world deals with the latest
of several negative press incidents by Turkey. Clearly a troubled society of many faces,this hard-lined approach with the Kurds will fail as it has in the past. Pray for justice and peace!
Ratification means a majority of the members of the Turkish parliament will raise their hands and ok it. Why will they do it? What vital interest will be served?
The reason the border was closed was the brutal invasion and ethnic cleansing of Karabag. Now that is something civilized countries do not do! So, what will have changed that the Turkish parliament will now take that decision back? Just to be nice to a people who think of them as barbarians, murderers, occupiers of Greater Armenia, a ramnent of the Ottomans who will surely disappear into history as Sevres intended? What exactly is the incentive? Why would they do this to a hostile country which is pointing Russian guns in our direction and has taken every opportunity in every forum to hurt Turkish interests?
Fact is, Armenia has so much more to gain from normalization and clearly does not have the leverage to dictate the terms. Opening the borders and resuming normal ties will make a huge difference for the well being of average Armenian but will have little impact in the life of an average Turk, maybe except in a small re3ion.
If the members of the parliament are to push for these protocols in the face of tremendous pressure from nationalists and many others who wonder why extend a hand to a country so hateful of us and tries so hard at every turn to harm us, not tomention has occupiedlands of a friendly country with help of Red Army, then Armenia needs to produce that incentive. It does not mean a total capitulation on Karabag issue, but something will have to give there with or without protocols, that much is given.
We must thank Dino for explaing here exactly what Ottomans have faced 100 years ago and why they were forced to take the measures they took against the Armenians who were bent on total ethnic cleansing of all Turks from most of Anatolia. I mean, just imagine his kind a century ago, and one now gets a picture of what Ottomans faced.
Dino thinks being a Turk is a matter of DNA or ethnic trait. That is exactky how Hitler thought too. He has no clue as usual, about the difference between Turk and Turkic. People of Turkey represent a mixture of multitude of ethnicities, some Turkic, many not. There is no ethnic defintion. Whoever calls himself a Turk is a Turk in our book. There is no doubt many have Armenian blood, Kurdish, Greek, Arab, Persian, and many others also. Anyone born there and embraces the flag is a Turk. Most nationalistic Turk I ever met was an Armenian. If anything, language is the common bond. I doubt if any of this is penetrating.
I am grateful though about lands around Konya Dino deemed good enough for Turks. It would be awfully crowded with 75M, but at least he did not propose gas chambers and ovens. Maybe it waqs implied. I am also sure Dino does not know that Konya comes from Iconium! So even that seems to be an incomplete solution!
To: "nyoped"
My answer to you turkish intelligence officer:
"yes, your turkish government used us and tricked us Kurds to do your turkish dirty deeds. yes, we killed innocent and defenseless poor abandoned Armenians on your turkish behalf, and so naturally Armenians fought back."
But no matter how much you turks try, you WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO USE US against the Armenians.
I will believe you turks, only and only when I see Armenian army units and fighter jets bombing us, but since time immortal the ONLY soldiers, tanks and jets I see are Turkish. Hmmmmmmm I wonder if the Armenian army is disguised as the Turkish army and bombing us day in and day out since 1920s.
Ferhat
Hi Ferhat,
Unfortunately yes the Kurds were used by the Ottoman Turks during the Armenian Genocide as they were at the time mountainous people, mostly uneducated and were Musilman as the Turks were. And as history is completely and totally being revealed to us all now, the Zionist Jews headed by Talaat, Enver and Gemal who thought out systematically to annihilate all the Armenian Christians in their homeland as early as from 1911 to 1912. It was all inhumanly, barbarically and heinously thought out much before than 1915 to kill every Armenian on site. And yes the young Turks used both the Turkish people, the Turkish murderors freed by the government, and you Kurdish people, by saying that if you kill a Christian Armenian you shall go to heaven and have a good time and good faith there. However my own father was left orphan from the Genocide and his entire family with all his relatives were annihilated as well as more than 1.5 beautifully civilized intelligent builders, workers and the bread and butter of the Turkish government. Although my father was a mere child, however he remembers everything as he was a very smart child. He came from a wealthy family who owned Kurdish families as my grandfather's and great grandfather's hired hands. When the men of the house were killed by the Turks, the women and the children escaped and hid with the Kurdish family that worked for them. They hid my grandmother, my great grandmother and all the women and children for a while; until they were told not to by the Turkish authorities or else they'd burn their houses. So yes, there were numerous Kurds who were very kind to the remnants of the Armenian survivors.
I am now reading the first part of the late author's book "Tseghin Tsayne", in English it is The Race's Voice by Aram Haygaz. In the first part, he was a young teenager who miraculously escaped the death marches, thanks to his beloved mother's advice by accepting to be Musilman, and he stays and works for a Kurdish Ali Peg who saves him and he took very good care of him. After the Peg dies, Aram goes and works with one of his brothers and he practically becomes like a son to him.
Yes Ferhat, to sum it up, after knowing the Kurdish family that worked for my father's family and took care of him and the women, then reading from Aram Haygaz' life, I feel that there were many more Kurds who had hearts and were kind to the remnants of the Armenians who felt bad for their horrendous and sad faith.
Turkoglu
Don't be so sure and so arrogant. We are just waking up.
"there is a word hidden inside another word.." Willian Shakespeare
Greetings from Kurdistan
Ferhat
What needs to be seered into the Mongolian/Turk/Azeri mind is that NKR or the liberated Armenian territories will never be given back. The perpetration and failure to come to grips with the Armenian genocide will linger for centuries.
The only hope for them is a good amount of education from their intillectuals abroad as they have realized that Turkic sultans have no clothes.
BTW, the transportation routes are now open through Georgia. We don't need the border opened with Turkey. We are doing just fine.
barbarian,
I really dont have the time to deconstruct all your fantasies. But I will say this, I use terms precisely, although you wish to interpret them as you want. I am a turkish citizen and I speak turkish fluently. I know every square inch of so called turkey, it's history, geography and ethnic make up. Ten's of millions of Anatolians would not dare call themselves turks. I attended a family and friends get together yesterday I brought you up about your "everyone is a turk" and you were laughed down. 30 bolsahyes laughing to tears. Yours is only a fantasy of kemalist bigots who run a barbarian state.
I'm glad you think the way you think. barbarians love to underestimate Armenians. It's that chip on their shoulder of thinking they are superior. As for Konya, you dont know my entire land distribution program, naturally, but the city of Konya would not be within the temporary turkic homeland. No city would be included. You are a nomadic tent people. Yurts murat, yurts! You came to Anatolia with nothing and you will leave with nothing.
The temporary turkic homeland would not just include 30 million turks of anatolia but the turks of Azerbaijan, turkified kurds and the turks of all of southwest asia. Alevi turkish speaking Anatolians, Alevi Kurds pro Armenian sunni kurds and other sunni's who have rendered assistance may stay in their homes across anatolia and thrace.
Dear Manooshag, your thoughts and your apprehention of history and events are on target. And yes I rationalize and deduce the very same way as you do. However, along with the United States, Great Britain were the masters of sin who backed up Turkey for almost a century now having been silent to appease Turkey's denialist government. And today, to multiply the wealth of their country, Russia is sinfully joining the United States and France. As a matter of fact, right after the first World I, Great Britain, France and the United States were solely out for their own selves to divide Turkey amongst themselves to have it colonyzed; (that in actuality Turkey belonged in part to the Greek nation, the other part to the Armenian nation, and the lower part of Turkey belonged to the Kurdish nation). I believe that is the reason why when President Wilson draw the Wilson Arbitration Award in favour to the heirs of the Armenian martyrs from the Genocide, the United States senate and congress turned it down. Yes dear Manooshag, the most powerful nations of the world at the time all sinned and even today NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!! They still continue with their unprincipled ways. Under the cloak and the disguise of democracy, justice to all mankind that they yell at the top of their lungs; indeed they act immorally and unethically taking total advantage of the weaker countries and sinning next to and with the belligerent countries as Turkey. What role did America's national self-interest play in helping Turkey evade public accountability? Read the book of "Children of Armenia" by Michael Bobelian.
Perhaps Mr. Ahmet Davutoglu (son of David) might be able to offer an illustrative comment or two?
Murat,
You should provide independent proof from non-Turkish and non-Armenian sources to back up your statements about the Armenians. Otherwise you are contradicting yourself by relying only on the testimony of your grandfather with no other proof. If, as you imply, the first hand testimony of Armenian parents and grandparents is invalid and insufficient to make genocide claims against Turks, then the first hand testimony of your grandfather should be equally invalid and insufficient in making claims against Armenians. There can be no double standard. Provide independent proof that we can all look at.
Murat, you are an arrogant Genocidal grey wolf maniac. So, my people contributed nothing to this part of the world? Fine, what did Turks contribute? Murder, murder, murder,murder, Genocide after Genocide. Open history books of the Albanians, Greeks, Serbs, Austrians, Armenians and now us the Kurds, and all you Turks contributed was Death and destruction. Show me one Turkish contribution to this part of the world, and I will fly to the moon and plant the Turkish blood flag. I am waiting................
PKK, mind you is a Kurdish liberation movement. If PKK are terrorists, then kemal, the blond blue eyed Albanian traitor butcher of Greeks and Kurds is the founding father of world terrorism.
I also am stupified as to why the Interpol has not arrested Islamist terror suspect erdogan. Here is a surprise for you, something no one knew :
"Did you know, that erdogan, before becoming prime minister, was on CIAs watch list as a potential terrorist symphatizer?" Did you know that erdogan and Afghan terrorist hekmetyar were buddies? There are at least 24 photos of them together celebrating the murders of innocent people. So, you see, turkish contribution is continuing to flood the world with fresh innocent blood.
As for you calling Ocalan Apo, wow, that's an honor we carry high on our shoulders. If Ocalan is of Armenian ancestery, then glory be to that sacred name, but of course this is a smear tactic that is backfiring, and instead making us Kurds more proud. As for your Abdullah Gul, the books are wide open, Turkish intelligence was aware of Guls Armenian ancestery since 1968. You can check this fact with your government for more details...if you so desire.
To conclude. Turks contributed billions and billions of gallons of spilled innocent blood.
Kurds(ancient indo-European Medes) gave the world great culture and kings of Persia.
Listen, irrespective of what you think of my Kurdish people, you committed this Genocide in 1915, whether you want to accept this fact or not does not really matter, what matters is that the civilized world came to know that you have no shame at all.
One day if I meet you in Diyarbekir, I will stick the word GENOCIDE on your forehead, that way you'll never forget what your grandfather did to millions of innocent and helpless Armenians.
I find Ms. Amberin Zaman’s article apart from some inaccuracies very objective. The analysis and the issues are mostly accurate and the positive far outweighs the shortcomings.
In the past on several occasions I have said this and now I repeat. The reason Turkey has been/is so emboldened is not because Turkey is strong, but it is because our government is weak and didn’t have the moral fiber/chutzpah as the Jews say to properly respond. The first time Turkey “demanded the return of all the liberated (occupied as per Turkey and Azerbaijan) territories,” The Armenian government should have responded. “First return 9/10 of our country and make Genocide reparation, and then we will talk about other issues.” (I understand that this might be impractical, but it would have been a beginning.) We lost another golden opportunity like the many others in our several millennia history.
In conclusion: I commend Ms. Zaman for a job well done and look forward to read more relevant articles. It is only through dialogue that we may achieve something.
Bedros H. Kojian, M.D.
PS: Both my parents were survivors of the Armenian Genocide. In a couple of occasion my father survived because of his Turkish friends.
Nairian:
Thank you for the kind words. I have, mind you, read bits and pieces of Aram Haigaz's "Four Worlds," a truely amazing and entertaining book.
I know my people. We, unfortunately are "tribal" in nature, which has worked against us but did super fine for the Turkish government, who used us time and again to do their dirty deeds. I am happy and glad that our parliament accepted the Kurdish complicity in the Genocide. I have nothing good to say about my grandfather, who being an uneducated man was used by the Turk, who then turned on my grandfather and assasinated him.
We are an honorable people, we will never shy away from asking forgiveness from the children and grandchildren of the Armenian race, we are forever shamed and ask forgiveness. You know, the Turk will always try to divide us, they will tell us the Kurds that the Armenians killed us, that us Kurds killed Armenians, that Torgut Ozal was Kurdish(may this obese dirty Kurd rot in hell), that Gul is Armenian......who cares. Did these people do any good for their race? Nothing. Did Ozal do any good for his Kurdish people? Nothing, what's more, he bombed us and killed thousands of Kurds. Do you think Gul will do Armenians any good, even though it has been known about his Armenian roots since 1968? Of course not, and this list is long, very long. Thousands of Turkish politicians and military leaders have had Armenian grandmothers, who were Turkified while little orphaned girls. We even have had a Hamshen Armenian who became the prime minister of Turkey not too long ago, I can't seem to remember his name, but did he do any good for his Armenian people? Nothing.
Look, the Turk will never apologize, because they have had no honor nor shame since time immortal. Only a handful of Turks today apologized, and I have great respect for them, these people saved their souls from the shame their ancesters brought upon themselves. We particularly love and respect the great human being, Orhan Pamuk, this giant of a man humbly carried the Armenian and the Kurdish issues and presented them to his people. Now, he is treated as a pariah in Turkey.
I recently noticed that Turkish intellectuals have started to voice their concerns about the issues surrounding the Armenians and the Kurds, well I applaud their courage.
I also would like to thank the Republic of Armenia for allowing our Yezidi brothers and sisters live there in total freedom. Iwas surprised to see Yezidi leutenants in the Army of Armenia. There is not a single Armenian seargent in the Turkish army, what's more, Armenian conscripts are severly beaten when inducted into the Turkish army. Remember Mr. Dinks story, he wanted to serve his adoptive country Turkey, but was not allowed to advance because of his race and religion, which coincidentially allowed him to see the racial policies of the government of Turkey.
To conclude, I thank all the Armenians for allowing me to join their forum and vent the concerns of my Kurdish people. I apologize if I sometimes hijacked your forums, but we all are on the same bandwagon, we all are fighting for justice and eventual peace, and hope that the perpetrators of the Genocide realize that it is foolishly futile to deny facts that have been out since 1890s.
I challenge any and all Turkish online websites to allow Kurds and Armenians vent anti-Turkish sentiments, they won't, because there is no democracy in Turkey at all. I am however surprised that Armenian websites allow Turks to post anti-Armenian posts.......
Hey guys, I am a Muslim, but LOVE your churches, the architecture simply is AMAZING. It just boggles the mind seeing a small people like you, surrounded by enemies on all sides, and having nothing but stones, still go ahead and use these stones and make beautiful churches and monasteries. Unfortunately, Turks have destroyed almost ALL of these beautiful churches, only a few stand today. I have visited one particular church in the city of Van (not the one on the island), and cried seeing it desecrated, how could a "human being" destroy these gems like that is beyond me.
I bet that if you Armenians lived in a desert, not only you would have turned the desert into a paradise, but would have found something useful to make with the sand.
Amazing , simply amazing people.
Ferhat
Erdogan is a former Islamist terrorist symphatizer.
So, what do you expect from a terrorist?
I wonder who he betrayed in the Afghan Taliban to recieve immunity from the world secret agencies.
Lies, lies and more lies coming from the mouth of non other than a TERRORIST.
Ferhat
PS: If the CIA or Interpol are reading any messages here, it is high time to arrest this Islamist terrorist immediately.
Are you telling me Armenia and Artsakh together raised more than the Armenian American community?
Or even Russia for that matter? 5.4 Million...Jesus Christ.
And why aren't Krikorian and the Hovnanian family giving anything? Economic crisis? Yeah, ok! Give a million or 100,000. Not NOTHING.
Ani,my warm congratulations to you and to your family.
A relax mind, A Joyful spirit and A full of success …these are my wishes to you .
May ask what residency you are going to apply? Me recentlyI have been applied to IM residency programs and appearing for interviews.
Sincerely
What we need to do is as a community is to sit on the fence. That means declaring ourselves as Independants and severly punish, in the political sense, people like McCain, Lieberman, Byrd etc.... by making sure they lose their senate seats.
God made Us Armenian
But did not protect us
Let Us... suffer
More than any nation on Earth.
Hye, another PLOY of the Turkish leadership: Continue Turkish Genocide against the Kurdish peoples (for years now) and blame the Kurds for 'attacking' the Turks. Reality: the Kurds are the victims of Turkish terrorism - the Kurds are seeking freedom from the Turkish tyranny.
Thus, the Turkish use of Genocides to eliminate 'others' continues - for it is their Ottoman policy of TURKEY FOR THE TURKS - ONLY. Too, since none will oppose another Genocide - what's one more? Darfur, now 2010 the Kurds...
The first Genocide 'allowed' the Turks to eliminate the Armenian peoples from their homeland thus Genocide will 'allow' the Turkish leaders of today to succeed against the Kurds. Non-stop...
The bullying continues - what allows a Turkey to Genocide all their victims - unopposed by the civilized societies on the planet?
Manooshag
Hye, P.S.
And Turkey calls it now a 'WAR' against the Kurds. Who are they fooling? By labelling it a 'WAR' is another PLOY... It's really the ongoing GENOCIDE of the Kurds -
Manooshag
For Murat:
http://www.gomidas.org/Blue_Book_Project/Blue_Book.htm
Perhaps you can help the Grand National Assembly send a belated response to this?
Thus the Genocide continues. It was WWI when the Armenian Genocide occurred under the disguise of WWI. Turkey annihilated more than 1.5 million Armenians. Turkey did her horrific crimes purposely at a war time, so that the allies won't interfere with Turkey's belligerent behaviours of annihilation to the Armenians as well as to the other Christian nationalities in Turkey; to the Greeks and to the Assyrians. Then they denied it for almost a century now by saying that the Armenians were simply killed in war times and they the Turks were also killed. If so, then how is it that more than 3 million Armenians who lived in Turkey by 1915, after 1923 there remained only very few Armenians in their own anscestral homeland, that is not more than 5-10 thousand if that much. And how is it that the Turkish people then were only about I believe not more than 7-9 million in 1915 and today they are 75 million, if they were killed as much as the Armenians. Yet Armenians today throughout the world are not more than 8-10 million. Where did the 3 million Armenians in 1915 disappeared to? Perhaps people from Mars or Venus visited earth and took them away to their planet in orbit? The denialist Turkey now says that the Turks were also killed in Turkey? But they do not specify how they were killed. Such as their army fighting against the allies (AND NOT their women, their children or their elderly); such was the doomed faith of the 1.5 million Armenians.
Now 94 years later, nothing has changed. Turkey merely three or four years ago annihilated 30,000 innocent Kurdish people, and today they are doing the same as they started with the Armenian intellectuals in 1915 when they first gathered them in Istanbul and killed them on broad daylight 250 Armenian intellectuals and then they killed all the Armenian people on their own homeland. The same is happening now with the Kurds, as Turkey arrested 60 people, including Mayors and Kurdish Human Rights Association members. The very same way the 1915 Armenian Genocide has started.
Now what are the powerful nations of the world (the US, Russia, United Kingdon and France) are doing about it? They go after a small little landlocked country such as Armenia and go and twist their president's arm to sign under duress the horrific protocols that are against the well being and the continuation of Armenia's sovereignty; by having them sign the very duplicate of the illegal Kars Treaty, which is in favour and only in favour of the belligerent Genocidal Turkey. And why? So that Russia and the US can capitalize for the gain of their economy and for gasoline, and for today's Turkish vast land that it can become beneficial to them in the future. Will the major powers of today let the Genocidal Turkey to commit yet another Genocide in the 21st century?
Turkey can fool all they want to fool Manooshag; because the so called major powers of today are hibernating or are aloof towards the Genocidal Turkey. Turkey is obviously now after the poor Kurdish citizens of their country. Turkey will not leave the Kurds alone until the European countries and the US interfere.
Taner would be a much more effective advocate for promoting understanding between Armenians and Turks if he lectured to TURKS living in Turkey about Turkish history and Armenians.
His people need to here it from the lips of one of their own.
"They killed us for breakfast, they will kill you for lunch."
Turkish statecraft has learned that western outrage passes quickly, and the anger of the minorities is nothing. Especialy today, when Turkey buys more than its share of weapons systems from American contractors.
Where is the western media? Their outlets think the most intresting "Armenian question" is whether Khloe and Omar will get divorced.
Dear Ferhat, You are most welcomed and I also thank you for all your enlightenments to us all, and I also thank your sentiments about our martyred anscestors' memory. The Kurdish people are brave people that have accepted in their parliaments the Armenian Genocide. It is very good to hear that. I truly feel terrible that the Genocidal Turks are doing the same atrocities now to the Kurdish people that they did it to the Armenians in 1915. In this day and age it is outright unbearable and horrible to see belligerent Turkey kill innocent Kurdish civilians (women, children and the elderly). There is no war now, what is Turkey's excuse?????? And supposedly Turkey wants to get into the European Union? I am proud of the editors of this paper that they let you talk you in here. You have every right to as you are more than justified. I believe that your people must speak up and work for your humanly rights to survive and NOT get killed by the Turkish government. You must speak in governments around the world! I wish you all good luck, remain strong and work towards your goals.
Realist, saying such things in Turkey will get you killed. Apparently, pride is more important than the truth.
Some of the Kurdish tribes; Sheko, Dersim (mostly Alevi Kurds) were once indeed Armenians and were sympathetic to Armenians during the genocide. Some of my relatives were smuggled out of Western Armenia by Dersim Kurds and thus were fortunate enough to be saved because of their kindness. These tribes would later face genocide in the 1920's at the had of Ataturk.
The problem arises that there are other factions/tribes who ceaselessly do the Turks bidding, they were Hamidye during the 1890's, part of the "Special Organization" during WWI, and their offspring are now "Village Guards" used in the oppression of fellow Kurds.
I believe we must take up the common cause with the Kurds, we face the same enemy who is trying to destroy both of our peoples. Armenians and Kurds must start to slowly build a foundation together.
Thank you Dear Eren..thank you for your courage and your dedication for the truth...
Realist/Mike ...Dudes: Taner's books sell well in Turkey - like hot lehmajoon on a cold winter day. His latest work on the post-genocide Yozgat and Trabzon trials in 1919 I believe is only available in Turkish, so he's definitely engaging that audience.
Hi, I was researching the Urartu People this evening and ended up on your website. I am a product of grandparents who fled the genocide. Since I was young I was told about the inhumanity and barbarism of the turks , (small t. ) Of late I find it ncessary to learn as much as I can about our history and ongoing issues with these want to be Europeans . (viva la French,) Try as they will ,they're people with limited horizons . Ignorance and hate poison the psyche. It 's like a cancer. Where i live in the U.S. we have of late had an influx of turks (small t) and I have quietly watched how thoughtlessly they have antagonized an entire community. They have set up shops selling fake Native American jewelry and rugs. The fakes are produced in the old country, falsely signed and sold at discounted prices here. In doing so they are robbing the Native American Community of a livelyhood they so desperately need, it is their heritage. (sound familiar) Town meetings were held and fines were levied against them. Anyway enough of that maybe you could direct me to some other historical sites. Please keep me updated, and by the way they are teaching Armenian History at Univ. of Calif. at Irvine . I was very pleased to hear the staff is trying to make it a permanent part of the curriculum. Best Regards Patricia Agemian
I still insist that an Armenian painter should have painted the cover of Andre Agassi's Autobiography, showing his talented hands which arouse from his inspective creative mind.
Enchanting enchantive moments for those who observed him actually or through the T.V.
There is proverb which says that Armenians have the hands of the creator.
-----------
This poem is written to a cardiac surgeon.
'HANDS' GOD OF MAN
Hands… speak the man
Hands in hearts, revive new life
Hands build’s towers of man
Hands, is the God of man.
Hands… breathe the man
Hands… hold the venture sign
Hands… creates every- tine
Hands, is the life of man.
Hands … write
Hands … play
Hands … carve
Activating desires of life.
Hands deliver newborn alive,
To give…. breathe, hence to believe
To grow real man possessing hands
To recreate, survive, building a hive!
Those blissful hands,
Can alive, failed hearts.
If cannot achieve; the spirit will fly,
The flesh decays, descend in sands!
A wish extends to every child,
To be born with hands: designs,
Creates constructs have reigns,
Handling gifts to new and old lives!
_______________________________________
From the poetry collections ' Lance my Hart at a glance' July 2007
To Joseph:
Members of my family were also saved By the Alevi Zazas/Dimlis. They are not kurdish. They suffered genocide in 1908 and 1937. They are a distinct people with some Armenian roots but they can not be considered Armenian. Their origin is much debated either being from Iranian Caspian sea area or indigenous. Since it can not be determined their exact origin and that they have some Armenian roots and that they saved over 20,000 Armenians, in a reconstituted Greater Armenia they should be allowed to prosper in their ancestral villages. For the most part Zazas live within the old Armenian kingdom of Greater Tsopk'. I'm working on a mapping project defining Armenian and Zaza lands of Greater Tsopk'.
If the 'secular' generals and military elite of Turkey are, in fact, true Muslims (which is highly questionable)...it should be anathema for them to persecute and murder fellow Muslim Kurds, yet that hasn't stopped them. This highlights the key division between the AKP government and the Ataturkist mindset of those who carry out ethnic and religious suppression.
Ms. Zaman's article/analysis was objective and our government truly does not have the manliness to respond to both our enemies (Turkey and Azerbaijan) when the opportunity is on their doorstep. Where was our government when in Julfa, Nakhichevan our 3,000 cemeteries were demolished on broad daylight? I remember seeing the video right on this website. Why did our authorities kept their mouth shut? That was the right opportunity for the Armenian army to interfere and wage war against Azerbaijan to claim our OWN lands back. Nakhichevan for thousands and years has been Armenian lands until the killer/devil Stalin gave our lands to the Azeris to appease Mustapha Kemal. Then it was our opportunity and we lost it to the loser Azeris.
To Dr. Kojian: I agree, Armenia should have given that golden answer to the Turks as well as ask them to give back to the poor Greek Cyprians their lands back and get out of Cypria!
Armenia should never be the initiator of canceling the protocols. As flawed as they are, they have been signed and to withdraw would put Armenia in further defensive position. Aside from issuing the required political rhetoric in response to Turkey's outrageous comments, Armenia needs to maintain
a reserved position and let Turkey's inevitable duplicity play out. If we have the politicial patience, Turkey is in an irreconcilable place. Their left seeks reconciliation to placate the EU, their right is in
seemingly endless denial, Azerbaijan awaits support for what they could not do on their own and Erdogan plays to all. Even the tolerance of the U.S.has a limit(i.e when U.S. interests are challenged
...such as increased Russian influence in the region). All is not lost.
Hmmmm, "Murat", I dare say, "doth protest too much, methinks," regarding Turks being thought of as barbarians. No one has made that claim here, except he...
Dino Ajemian, check this out. It's in Turkish but talks about the genocide, etc
http://www.dersimsite.org/indexhay.html
Realistically, the protocols that were signed between Armenia and Turkey, are nothing but...NOTHING. The US government and the Armenian government knew that Turkey uses this phony protocol photo shoots for propaganda purposes only. I myself won't pay the "protocols" one Turkish lira. Turkey has tons of agreements with dozens of foreign countries, but none of these agreements are ratified by Turkey. Some Turks arrogantly believe that "Turkey gains nothing by opening the borders with Armenia." Well, I see Armenia gaining nothing but more Turkish intelligence officers, who mind you have already infiltrated Armenia in large numbers. I recently heard that currently about 2,000 Turkish agents are at work in Armenia spying, and some are Armenians. Their easiest targets of course, are Armenian women. Well, some of you will be surprised to know that most of the Armenians from Armenia in Turkey are women, and believe me when I tell you that your women here in Turkey are easy targets of the Turkish intelligence for espionage purposes. They are "sitting ducks," as the saying goes. I hope and pray that Armenia is not betrayed by these returning Armenians. I know that Armenia is going through hardships, and the almighty dollar paid to them by the Turkish intelligence, might morph these ladies into obedient tools for espionage. Armenians returning from Turkey must and should be watched closely.
Some of you might say, "Oh Ferhat, don't be paranoid," well, I live in Turkey, I know my city Diyarbekir is practically jammed by Turkish agents and their Kurdish slave dogs, we know it, it is not a secret, and I know that they are doing the same in Armenia.
Turkey will benefit enormously when the borders are opened:
1. Dump cheap substandard Turkish products
2. Dump hundreds more intelligence officers.
3. Officially turn Armenia into a satellite vasal state of Turkey.
So, to conclude, every Turkish move should be watched closely, analyzed and scrutinized before opening the borders, in the end, if the borders are opened, Turkey will become the master of the Caucasus.
Armenia is in trouble folks. We seem to be an old race yet still highly immature in our wisdom and political skill. The more seemingly organized and stable diaspora must get involved in the affairs of Armenia proper or the thiefs and thugs will sell us all. The secretly hatched "protocols and roadmap" scheme is proof enough that Armenia's ruling oligarghs cannot govern with the skill and true vision of the race as a whole. Otherwise, it is akin to letting the 'fox watch the hen house' which is equally absurd. I propose another political party in Armenia whose sole purpose is to represent the will of the diaspora. One that is totally funded by the diaspora. One that represents the greater majority of the Armenian population and it's vision of true transparent democracy, equality and prosperity for all Armenians in Armenia, final justice and restitution for the Armenian Genocide and a free Karabagh. The days of letting the Armenians run their own country and business is over!
You know what I think Ferhat? I think you yourself should go to Armenia and teach both our government and some of our youth, who don't know from their repeated history who the Turks are. I know I am a bit jesting and more wishful thinking; but seriously I know from my history that you absolutely CANNOT trust the Turkish government and their moves; but my people seems to me they continue to make the same mistakes over and over again, (They are very gullible). My people are a bunch of extremely intelligent people; but they are hard-headed and very proud people, and they seem to be deceaved by the enemy time and time again. When the enemy gives them a smile; they believe them. I wish people like yourselves who live in Dikranagerd - today's Diyarbekir - who know the heart and sole of the Turkish mindset would teach and preach my people in Armenia. BTW; someone in here said that perhaps the Kurds, the Greeks and the Armenians should join forces against the Turks and reclaim their stolen lands from Turkey. I wish sometime that would materialize. It seems to me that we can deal much better with the majority of the Kurds then with the Turks, (especially the Turkish government) who are a deceitful fascist mindset who's only dreams are pan-turanism as well as global control.
You are doing a wonderful JOB bringing news to Armenian Americans in all parts of the USA.
Albert Der Tatevasian, Photographer
ALBERT THE ARMENIAN
Hey, here is an idea, how about a Holy Crusade?
If this is a smapling of modern Armenian thinking, even if it is a minority, I only shudder when I think of what Ottomans faced 100 years ago.
Hey Murat, Your anscestors from Mongolia when they came to our highlands on or about 12th-14th centuries, my anscestors not to get killed they had to migrate from Nakhichevan and went south in the 15th century. Why did the Ottomans came to the cradle of civilization, that is Armenian Highlands? Why didn't they stayed in Mongolia rather than migrating. If they did we would have been at least 50 million by now rather than 8 million.
Hi John, I truly sympathise with you. The answer for your justly outcry is within one and only political party that is called social democratic party. In my humble opinion, this party thinks and breaths solely for the Armenian people and for our beloved Armenia. The Diasporan Armenians cannot rule from abroad, even though a majority of them are obviously the remnants left from the Armenian Genocide and loves our Motherland; however they should undoubtedly to be regarded when an event as dire as the destructive "protocols" have to be drawn. The Armenian government must be in Armenia proper and the only one I see that will have vision, ethics, and the love for our Motherland and for our people; is the Armenian Revolutionary Federation.
you know everybody, if you have a perspective on this, writing in this narrow vocabulary where only this small group sees what you have to say denies a larger audience of the matter, in other words lots of good stuff is seen here but if it were written in letters to the editors of your local newspapers also it would very likely be seen by many more than the group that relates online...this is good but write letters to the editor and keep writing them to tell your story, make noise like the Jews do if you want to accomplish anything...
Turks alone butchered 50 million innocent people, which mind you included Muslim Kurds, Arabs and Iranians, ever since their mongol ancestors arrived here from central asia.
Crusaders caused the deaths of about 78,000 Muslim Arab /Kurdish inhabitants. And remember Murat, if it wasn't for Salladin, (a Kurd like myself, a Kurdish universal humanist who treated captured Christian soldiers with dignity and respect, and was respected for his chivalry). You cannot say the same of your Ataturk or Abdul Hamid and tons of murderous Turkish heads of stateShow meone chivalrous Turk, Ataturk? He killed 80,000 innocent Greeks. Hamid? He outdid Ataturk by millions. Suleyman the magnificent? He reportedly caused the death of 4 million Europeans. Next time I need to butcher innocent Armenians and Greeks, I'll call Murat and his Turkish hordes to do the killings for me.
Now I am going to assume that Murat my Turkish friend, is a mathematician...and I will leave for Murat to calculate the difference of the number of peoples murdered by the Crusaders and the Turks.
To Nairian: Thank you for the suggestion. But I need to stay in occupied Kurdistan. This is my land, and it does not belong to this murderous newcomer intruders. Kurds are well aware as to who our enemies are. We will liberate our lands and our people from the Turks. Imagine half of the Turkish army stationed on our occupied lands and watching and listening to us day and night...we are fighting an uphill battle, our freedom fighters, between 600-800) are fighting an Islamist regime which is closely, read my words, closely related to the Taliban of Afghanistan. The current leaders of Turkey were all former Islamists.
To conclude. Kurds all over the world know that our number one enemy and future antagonists are the Turks. Our battle, will be against the Turk. They simply cannot rule on 20 million strong Kurds with iron fists, sooner or later things will backfire, and then all hell will break lose.
FYI: Did you know that the world Genocide is anathema in Turkey. So much feared that this word has become, that the Turkish government has spend millions and millions of dollars to "electronically erase" this much feared word. So, if you try to type the word Genocide on any Turkish government portal, you won't succeed. Such great is their fear and shame that their ancestors have brought upon the new Turkish generation.
To Realist: He simply cannot. You Armenians are starting to forget the violent mental dynamics that propels the Turkish government. Dr. Akcam will simply disappear from the face of this world if he did what you have suggested in your post, that is talk and lecture his own people. If you believe that there is democracy in Turkey, then you should believe that Turks invented the principle of relativity and the light bulb. Imagine, for a few minutes, the stupid laws and racist regulations they have imposed on us Kurds. No Kurdish language broadcasts, no Kurdish language thought in schools...and the list is long. So, understandably, Dr. Akcam is careful, no need to have another butchered innocent man added to the 50 million that keeps piling up every day.
Who cares about him.
Did he talk about the Genocide that moved his surviving orphaned grandparents to Iran? No
Did he do any good to his own people? No.
Did he help fund a school for disadvantaged poor Armenian kids? No
Did he donate money for building a tennis school in Armenia? No
Did he help pay for construction of housing for your 400,000 displaced Armenian refugees? No
Did he ever go to Armenia? No...I heard that your greatest singer Cher did...
Now that he is down and out, he needs his people for personal gratification..too bad..
So, being born in an Armenian family, should not make him a hero for your people. I'm sorry, but that's my two cents worth here..
But hey, I love your beautiful Armenian architecture. Can an Armenian here point me to a website where I can watch these beautiful churches and buildings from an Architects point of view? These churches are magnificant houses of worship. Beautiful straight lines that only an architect can appreciate.
you Ferhat,can see more than 3000 Armenian churches destroyed by islamo-facsits Taliban Turks in occupied Western ARMENIA since the Genocide of 1915 in Turkey, and you can admire " open-minded mentality of islamo-fascist Turks
Very true Ferhat. I respect Agassi but he is just a man and perhaps because he resents his father so much (with good reason) he barely acknowledges he's Armenian
President OBAMA is a liar. This will be more evident on April 24 when he doesn't use the Genocide word.
The congressmen who shouted "you lie" was right along with Reverand Wright who said OBAMA is just another politician.
Ferhat, what reason or obligation would Agassi have to the Armenian Nation or even it's people? He could help if he wants to, but just because he made it, don't feel as if he owes anybody anything. He made it in the United States and it was this country that gave him all he has. Did any single Armenian Organization lift a finger to help Agassi achieve his success as he was coming up? How many of the Armenians we like to brag about, who made it, got any assistance prior to making it from our Armenian Organizations?
Two sides to every coin.
The only place where one can discuss all point of views is Turkey ironically. There are many there who have views close to Taner's but who do not carry the baggage he does and are far more credible. They speak, they write and they discuss.
The impression that I have here is that, Turks are far more informed about their history than Armenians. Just look at some of the posts, you will know what I mean. The fact the population at large is not subscribing to a Dashnak version of history and false reality is not because Turks are in general uninformed but becasue they are and in spite of it.
More importantly, where is the Armenian Akcam?
Everyone knows the truth of what happened, that is why Turkish denial is going to fail.
Many people were there and know what happened to their family, friends and colleagues (even those in Istanbul), who were murdered in cold blood and were not rebelling against Turkey.
Ferhat, Perhaps Agassi was so much into his work and personal works and achievements that he forgot he was Armenian. However I see your point. Cher on her shows a few times talked about Armenian computers to let the world know that we are computer wiz, despite the fact that her Armenian father (Mr. Sarkissian) abandoned both her and her mother when she was little; but Cher felt Armenian in her blood and her roots and did not forget it. Because we are little in quantity, when we hear a well achieved and an international sportsman, a singer or an artist; we start feeling proud and that is national; however it takes a special person to make himself known, talk about and also visit Armenia, promote and help his anscestral country, especially when it has newly been formed. In many ways I appreciate where you are coming from. He never let himself known or talked about being Armenian. He was angry with his father, but what about his mother? And yet Cher's only Armenian parent was his father who abandoned him, yet she felt and acted close to us.
Nocomprendo, I don't share your thoughts. Yes Agassi's achievements were made by himself, with his hard work, with luck and the fact that he lived in the US. However, when he knows his roots and the reason why he was born in this country away from his anscestral soil, then he should or any Armenian man for that matter must not forget about his roots and his nationality. Simply because he is well known now? So what? Because we are rich and famous, we should forget our roots or because no other Armenian had the opportunity to help him up on the ladder? I remember Krikor Ohanian "Mannix' sitcom" has made a film - a documentary - about our "Musadagh Armenians' heroic acts". For instance, Mr. Kirk Kirkorian who has billions of dollars and was well known for his Las Vegas MGM. He helped a great deal with his millions for Armenia. He didn't forget his people. And you may ask yourself, that what Armenian helped him? None, nevertheless he did not forget his anscestral roots nor his newly formed Armenia and he helped them with his hard earned dollars.
Nocomprendo:
Well, technically you are right. Having said that, what makes you or Agassi Armenian? Just your name and last name? With that logic, we all lose. Then the idea of ethnicity is absurd.
I am a Kurd. But, if I don't fight the Islamo_Fascist Turks, what good I am for the Kurdish nation?
Cher, your famous singer, at least acknowledged her Armenian side and did so proudly, I heard that she even went to Armenia. Chers father, mind you, was anything but a good father.
My own father told me that his father, my grandfather, was a very strict disciplinarian, who continuously beat him and his siblings...BUT, he died fighting on the mountains for the Kurdish people. That made him a hero for my dad and our Kurdish nation.
Now, you tell me in your own words "what good is my ethnicity, if I have no contact with my people, and shy away from the Armenian spotlight?"
Anyone?????
May his soul rest in peace. He was the son of a great man, General Dro.
Well despite the fact that I said my peace above; but I have had my share of good or not so good experiences from some of the Armenians that I met in my past; but that doesn't stop me from continuing to do good or trying to stay close to my countrymen and read the news about Armenia's current events and or contributing with my dollars if and when I can. It is after all, a good part of our fabric being Armenian and staying Armenian.
Now I will let nocomprendo or others to speak up.
How can an Armenian discuss the Genocide in Turkey, if the word "Genocide" is a taboo and it is continuously erased from the Turkish networks and books?
Heck we aren't even allowed to learn our Kurdish language and listen to Kurdish music on air, and watch Kurdish TV programs, and this Turk here is trying to sound sane.
Another mislaeding Turkish opinion from a Turk.
And before I forget, I am a Kurd and I don't subscribe to the Dashnak version of history, but to the TRUE history that happened between 1870-1920. I subscribe to the cries of 50 million human beings butchered in the Ottoman Empire and Turkey.
Patricia Agemian,
If your family is originally from Hartford I can really help you out.
Ferhat, Just for the record, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation or Tashnagtsoutyun's version is not any different than the truth and the true version of our history. They are made from the very fabric and the roots of the Armenian people and they have always accepted in their ranks from the rich, the poor or the middle class.
DO NOT TRUST THE TURKS...said my father to me when I was barely 12 years old. Those five words kept me alive and going.
Any Kurd, Armenian, Arab, Greek, Jew, Albanian, Bulgarian, Yezidi, Alevi, Serb or Austrian and others who trust the Turkish state, are condemned to be victimized again.
Truely a great people you Armenians are.
I still cannot comprehend how a people, just out losing 99% of its people to the Genocide, poor, hungry, surrounded by enemies by all sides, sabotaged by the Red army, betrayed by the Georgians and almost all world superpowers, mustered a small army of a few thousands and beat the advancing Turks in three small battles, before succumbing before 300,000 Turkish well armed and well fed regular army. truely a feat of divine courage.
The Armenians will to survive is engrained in their DNA.
I have counted 9 million Armenian Akcams and 20 million Kurdish Akcams. We are all for peace, mutual understanding, respect, human rights and the almighty TRUTH.
All Armenians are asking from you is the TRUTH, and nothing less than the TRUTH.
All Kurds are asking from you is TRUTH bundled with HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM.
Turkey a member of the European Union?
How can a Genocidal country, be accepted in the EU, with blood of butchered innocent peoples dripping from the flag of Turkey? Strange....
Nairian, I simply was answering one Turks liberal use of the word "Dashnak." I know why they use that word freely, liberally and quite intentionally...but that's another subject for another day.
Armenia and Armenians will survive and thrive when we collectively get rid of current Armenian leadership. These imposters headed by Serzh Sargsyan must be driven out of office and kicked out of
Armenian political life. These turkophills have rubbed all the hopes of having a representive and democratic government. They are the cause for financial, social-economic ruins of our beloved homeland Armenia and depopulation of Armenia. These impostors must be tried for high treason and
ejected from Armenia.Let us hope that day will come before it is too late...
Ask for resignation of imposter Serzh Sargsyan and his band wagon of gangesters. These turkophills will ruin the social and economic fabric of our beloved homeland Armenia. They have rubbed Armenia of its wealth, forced massive emmigration from Armenia and are trying to sell The Armenian Cause. Let us not be so naive, the current so called leadership is not worthy of being called our leaders.
Why do you keep writing about the Armenian point of view which doggedly ignores the Armenian war crimes, agitation, terrorism, raids, revolts, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish suffering as a result of these?
Why do you insist on misrepresenting Tereset (temporary resettlement of 1915) which came as a result of these heinous acts of treason as a one way genocide?
How long do you think you can keep the attitude of "fooling all of the people all of the time"?
Why this ethocidal cultivation of hate and vengeance? Don't you see where it got you in 100 years--i.e. back to square one? Poverty-stricken, corrupt, and very violent?
How come NO ONE IN YOUR COMMUNITY knows (or has the courage to cover) the SIX T'S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT?
The comment by FairObserver above, probably a Turk brought up in schools with textbooks that brainwashed him or her, prompts me to think about Turkey's much heralded "zero problems with neighbors policy." As if any country that does not explicitly have such a policy actually wants problems with its neighbors.
And one wonders why Turkey has had so many problems with its neighbors that it must institute such a policy in the first place. I can't think of even one neighboring country, except perhaps Georgia, that has not had problems - in many cases major problems - with Turkey.
I also can't help recalling how Turkey not only annihilated or expelled nearly every Christian over the years - not just Armenians - but has also tried mightily to stifle the identity of Kurds and others. Even Jews have left in droves. What is is about Turkey that is so uncomfortable with other ethnic groups and religions? I don't have the answer, but there is clearly something fundamentally wrong with Turkey that its ridiculously named "zero problems" policy does not even begin to address.
FERHAT, I FORGOOT TO SAY WITH THE CRIMINAL COMPLICITY OF THE TURKISH KURDS (destroyed Armenian monuments in Western Armenia THAT YOU CAN ADMIRE )and nom claiming that Western Armenia became "Kurdistan" proves only criminal COMPLICITY duplicity of the KURDS WHO HAVE TAKEN PART TO THE GENOCIDE OF 1915. AS REGARDS AGHASSI's CASE WHO NEVER CLAIMED HIS ARMENIAN ROOTS DURING HIS CARRIER CONSTITUES A NON EVENT
I'm fairly certain "FairObserver" is Ergun Kirklikovali, the "Dwight Schrute" of the Turkish Community. In his mind, the Armenians are to blame for the Balkan wars, the OE's dissolution, their own deaths, the deaths of millions of muslims (must have been at the hands of the Armenian women and children, and they must have been superhuman killing machines since according to Turks, there were only 1 million Armenians in Asia Minor to begin with). He also claims that Armenians are anti-Islamic despite the fact that they get along with Arabs, Persians and increasingly with Kurds.
Enjoyed reading the article about Ayse Gunaysu.
It hits the bull's eye so to speak as it exemplifies how a spiritual action from a victim can touch someone from the other camp. It solidifies the higher levels expected from us no matter where we worship and how we worship . It speaks of authenticity for humanity instead of claiming the ideology of our different tribes.
Genocide is a hollow victory which will never last the Truth of time.
Victims, when they have something better to offer, are the TRUE VICTORS.
Fairobserver:
Do you have any shame, honor oe integrity left in your blood?
As an Armenian put it mildly, we know exactly who you are.
How come NO ONE IN YOUR Turkey who knows (shamelessly covering) the 12 G's (Stands for Genocide) of the Turkish Vs Innocent, defenseless peoples of the world whose people you still are butchering?
Kurdistan will be free and soon, you murderers wait and see.
Kurdistan will not be free until the Kurds acknowledge their role in the genocide (which is no worse than the role of the Turk), and begin actively participating for genocide recognition in Turkey.
Until then, don't expect the Armenians or the outside world to take you seriously.
And many of your Kurdish brethren have Armenian blood in them, for reasons you should know.
Murat, Vahakn Dadrian is considered to be the #1 scholar on the genocide in America.
Moreover, there is an entire museum in Armenia on the genocide -- I'm pretty sure there's a few smart people there too.
Hi Vardan, Ferhat on numerous times sincerely apologized on these threads not only for his anscestors but also for his own grandfather that they have collaborated and were part to the Armenian Genocide when the orders were given by the Turkish government. Ferhat also stated that the Kurdish senate have accepted the Armenian Genocide.
May the soul of Mr. Brutus rest in peace for he was a true humanitarian.
This is great! I can't wait to read all the comments for Kim Kardashian's autobiography!
Kurds have never been Armenians' enemies. The Turkish Governments in Ottoman times as well as in Republican times were and remain Armenians' and Armenia's as well as Kurds' foe and enemy. Turkish Governments would trying their best to make Armenians and Kurds enemies. All men with kind mind - including kind Armenians and kind Kurds - need more light in Anatolia.
Mr. Sassounian, I love to read your articles. You are always inspiring me with your insights and intellect. I know now why your columns were translated in so many languages and people like to read and know what you have to say. Thank you.
I wish I had the pleasure of meeting or even hearing a dissertation by Dr. Brutus. Is their an online transcript of the conference summary from Worcester State mentioned above? As a supporter of reparations for Armenians, I would like to learn more about him, his thoughts about reparations and read more about this topic re the Armenian case.
Kind regards.
Vardan, lest you misunderstand me. Here is a short history of my people:
1. Indo Europeans like our neighbors, the Armenians and the Iranians.
2. Yes, we actively participated in executing the Genocide alongside the Ottoman Turks. Not proud of that part of our history at all, very ashamed and humbled for the support that we get from the Armenians worldwide. We apologized and still do, I cannot talk for the Kurdish men who participated killing innocent and defenseless Armenians, all I can do is ask "Forgiveness" for their sins. Dark chapter in the history of my people, sad times, we don't want to remember the cries of the butchered Armenians. We are forever ashamed for falling into the Turkish trap, and helping them butcher innocent young and old men, women and children.
3. Unlike the Turks, our parliament in exile has accepted our complicity in executing the Genocide.
4. Proud people, but not scared of the truth. We stood up like honorable men, accepted our dirty deeds, and hope that Armenians will find forgiveness in their hearts and friendship for the future.
5. Any Kurdish tribe currently living in historical Western Armenia, will gladly move out if one day Turkey returns your ancestral lands to you, and the Armenians want us out, out we go. Those were never our lands, they belonged to you and it still does, period.
6. As for south west Turkey, where the bulk of my 20 million people live, close to Syrian and Iraqi borders, that is where we will build our new nation.
Vardan, if there is something that you want me, a Kurd, to do, to show that we erred and sinned in a monumental fashion, and are sorry killing innocent and defenseless Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks, and helping the Genocidal Turk, then spill it out in capital letters. We don't hide behind tanks and fighter jets as most Turks do. We are honorable people, we did, we accept, we ask for your forgiveness, and hope that we can be friends again.
As for Agassi: Why should we like a man, who has done absolutely NOTHING for his people. Has spent 30 million of his own money building tennis schools in USA, and all the while disadvantaged and poor Armenian kids are forgotten. He could have opened 60 schools in Armenia, imagine 60 schools. I heard that a school ina small city in Armenia costs about $500,000.
Or, why should I be proud of former prime minister of Turkey, Torgut Ozal, an ethnic Kurd, a turncoat and a sellout, a dirty obese down to earth murderer, working for Turkey and bombing his own people? Just because Agassi is an Armenian or a Kurd, I should go out be amazed by his heart wrenching story?
You all know Mike Conors(Krikor Ohanian) former TV star of Mannix? OK, that guy is a true patriot, because he expressed and was proud of his ethnicity by forcing Mannix TV production, to display the tricolors of Armenia. Go check and see. The least he did was acknowledge his people. Agassi on the other hand, hid his background, did not spend a dime, and basically turned his back on his people.
Remember what Kennedy said in his inaugural address? "Ask not what your country can do to you, ask what you can do for your country." ......Agassi failed his people. That's all....WHO CARES ABOUT HIM... he needs to come clean and start to build ONE single school, not 60 but 1. Is that too much to ask from a guy who spends millions of his own money building tennis schools for disadvantaged American kids? And how many poor destitue and disadvantaged Armenian kids are there in Armenia today? THOUSANDS..and do they dream of having a luxurious school packed with tennis courts and tennis classes, good nutriteous free meals etc etc?
I have no right answering that question, I am not an Armenian but a friend.....but I'll tell you this: I still have to see an American player who will spend 30 million of his own money by building a modern school for disadvantaged Armenian kids in Armenia.
Henry Dumnian:
I guess news travels slow in this part of the planet.
Kurds have a parliament in exile, since we cannot have one, because about 300,000 Turkish soldiers man our side of Turkey. Therefore our parliament in exile has accepted the Genocide. So, I am surprised as to why Armenian newspapers are mum about it.
To conclude: Henry what you have asked in your post, has been done long time ago.
The pathetic contribution by "fair observer" seems to be a familiar regurgitation of Turkish propaganda fed to simple minded fundamentalists that have a tendency of clinging to guns and religion when faced with facts.
I'm guessing the author behind the fallacious comment is that of either the fascist Ergun Kirklikovali or one of his ultra-nationalist Turkish brethren on salary doing his grunt work. In either case, I would fathom "fascist observer" would better characterize the authors views.
There is an effort in the Lincoln-Sudbury High School to railroad such teaching of the Armenian Massacres/Genocide. It may be familiar to some, but for the faculty and students in these north of Boston communities to be exposed to this anti-Armenian action can help prepare them for any similar efforts for their interests and also to recognize denial tactics.
If as the article says, the Kurds have been around for 4000 years then it must be that Armenians and Kurds lived together in the nation that ruled eastern Anatolia some 2500 - 3000 years ago, namely Urartu. A strong and prosperous nation, Urartu was even able to hold its own against one of the most powerful empires of that time, Assyria. Perhaps it's time to consider Urartu as a model for current relations between Kurds and Armenians, that is, a federation of sorts in eastern Anatolia with Armenians making up most of the northern regions and Kurds the southern regions (could even cover parts of oil rich northern Iraq). Armenia and Kurdistan cold exist as states within the federal jurisdiction of Urartu. The people could come and go as they like between the states. Can you imagine what Armenian technology combined with Kurdish manpower could do? Instead of fighting each other over limited resources Armenians and Kurds could work together to not only secure a prosperous future but heal a torn past.
To Samvel Jeshmaridian, PhD and his "Kurds have never been Armenians’ enemies" and the balance of his incomprehensible English, go read the five volumes of Zartonk (in Armenian), the historical novel by Malkhas, and you may ... you will, change your mind. We have no friends, my dear doctor. And to Dr. Astarjian and his "whomever I met had a Ph.D. or master’s degree," just go to the hill-country of Armenia, my dear doctor, and talk with Kurdish sheppards ... try to, that is. Enough patronizing, enough cunning, enough ... talking reason. No one should be permitted to "shape our future."
Many thanks Dr. Jeshmaridian.
My Armenian friends should remember one thing when Kurds come to mind.
Who were the educated elite in the Ottoman empire? Armenians of course.
Whereas my people, being "tribal" in nature and had poorly educated masses, were easily influenced by the Ottoman government and the Young Turks to join the wanton killings of defenseless and poor Armenian elderly, women and children.
I cannot find words to apologize to my Armenian friends. This is so painful for me, hate my grandfathers generation to death and still cannot believe the atrocities committed in the name of the young Turk government. I wished I could go back 95 years and stopped my own people from joining these Genocide.
I don't know what to say to you but apologize. This is a horrendous shame for my people. Unfortunately some still are easily influenced by the Turkish governments phony promises that never materialized.
As for the 6 villayets, as far as I am concerned, they belong to Armenia, there absolutely is no reason as to why it should not go to its rightful owner, having said that, the government of Turkey WILL start Kurd against Armenian games. We better stay awake and read every single word coming out of the mouth of their government.
I do, however have one concern, and that's your "extremely low population numbers" which I am afraid will work against your interests. I don't understand why Armenians keep leaving Armenia in huge numbers. Why don't you stay and multiply?
If, hypotthetically speaking, Turkey vacates all of Western Armenia, how would Armenia take care of a huge chunk of land which has a few hundred Armenians and a overwhelming Turkish majority? This "low population numbers" of your people bothers me a lot. If it is not taken care of immediately and soon, very soon...I'm afraid the Turkish resident guest population can and will/might vote for re-integration into Turkey proper.
IT is high time that Armenians start listening to the Kurds. They hold the ace card when it comes to events in eastern Anatolia. In this, no one in the diaspora, that I know of, has picked up the torch left by Hrant Dink. Armenians claim lands but they don't even take the time to familiarize themselves with those actually living on those lands. I am not naive enough to believe that all Kurds actually see Armenians as allies, but we would do well to devlop a closer and more strategic approach to the Kurds and issues where the two peoples have a commonality of interests.
Did any one approched Agassi and he refused?
Kurds & Armenians are the Arian "aborigines" in the area. The ancient Greek historian Xenophon in his book "Anavasis" whilst describing the return of the Greek army through Asia minor in the 4th centurey BC clearly mentions about the "Kardoukhous" or "Kourdoukhs" as a race living in a mountainous area before the Greek army entered the Armenian plateau.
The Kurds have to accept however that they have "settled" most of Western Armenia and the two nations, I believe should find a compromising solution that will lead them into coexisting peacefully
Its a shame that you write something like this about the Kurds. I understand why. If you where to write it about turks (1) you would have no audience and (2) you would get no dialogue from the other side because (3) they denie the existance of a genocide against armenians. It is a shame that a well respected intellectual such as yourself to go so low as to blame the genocide on the Kurds. Remember it is the Ottoman caliphate and "its army" that are responsible. Today there are 60 000 "kurds" known as village guards working for the turkish army. are you to tell me that there is a civil war between the Kurds. ofcourse not there are men in this world that will do anything for money.
www.kurdishrepublic.com
In 1908, Abdul Hamid II was overthrown during the Young Turk Revolution, which launched the Second Constitutional Era of the Ottoman Empire. Armenians gained more seats in the 1908 parliament, but the reforms fell short of the greater autonomy that the ARF had hoped for. The Adana massacre in 1909 also created antipathy between Armenians and Turks, and the ARF cut relations with the Young Turks in 1912.
Of course one should say that Kurdish Yezidis were always on the side of Armenians against the Turkish CRIMINAL state,during the struggle of 1880 to 1915 were always close friends to Armenians and nowbody can put that reality and friendship in question,i was refering to those who were manipulated (Muslims Kurds) by Ottoman state against Armenians, and the KURDS(yezidis) living in the republic of Armenia have all kind of cultural and national rights as they shared the same genocidal destiny of Western Armenians and i now that the KURDS and ARMENIANS are condemned to colaborate side by side in order to face Turkish treat in the region.
Just as some indicidual Turks hid and protected Armenians, so did some Kurds. It should also be remembered that some Kurdish chiefs refused to harm Armenians. Also, 300,000 Kurds died by forced relocation 1915-1925
Debate, controversy, myth, historical fact, freedom of speech. This is what the comment section of the Armenian Weekly represents and it is what freedom loving Armenians cherish. We didn't have it in Turkey but we have had it for 75 proud years in this English language newpaper in the US. We remember Hrant Dink's fate, especially this month. It is absurb for any Turk to deny the ruthless annhiliation of the Armenians from their homeland and the ultimate goal of the Turks that the only surviving Armenian would be in a museum. While many enlightened Turks may abhor the behavior of their leadership in 1915 and thereafter, it is only until the Turkish government itself accepts responsibility for their heinous acts of genocide against their Armenian citizens that justice will begin to be done. Til then the pens to correct a terrible wrong will continue writing, the voices of Armenians and their supporters will continue to rise around the world in protest against those who commit genocide and yet deny their evil intent. Armenians will never accept the fate the Turks thrust upon us, not after 100 years or 200 years. Why doesn't the Turkish government welcome and guarantee the Keghetzis, Vanetzis, the Sepastiatzis, the Zonguldaktzis, the Marashtzis and all the rest of the diasporan Hyes a safe return to their homeland to resume rightful ownership of their property? Your nation was built on the blood of the Greeks, the Assyrians, and the Armenians in particular. I shall never forget how the Turks decimated my family in Keghi and I shall not remain silent.
We need to build bridges with the Kurds somehow. Some are undoubtedly working on behalf of the Turks but many more are not and indeed find themselves in the same situation as Armenians last century. At the same time, it would be beneficial if the Kurds reached out to Armenians and Assyrians.
The PKK, PUK and IDP have all publicly acknowledged the Genocide and the Kurdish role in it. The Kurds deserve their own state in what is now Northern Iraq and parts of S.E. Anatolia.
Sylva
No one should approach you and beg you for money. No matter what circumstances you grew up, whether poor or rich, you should Always look back, look where you came from, your orphaned grandmothers were forced to walk thousands of miles so that you can have life. Someone mentioned that Agassi detested his dad, SO WHAT? What does your dad have to do with your Armenianness? Nothing... It is a choice, and Agassi chose to turn his back on his own people. No one asked him to spend 30 million of his own money to open tennis schools were disadvantaged American kids, am I right? Why should your own people beg you for handouts? You should have the moral courage and if you can afford to, contribute for the welfare of your people. Otherwise what good are we for our collective people? good charms? good personality? handsome face? Those things do not make the daily lives of your people any good, Agassis handsome face DOES NOT in any way, shape or form alleviate the hardships of thousands of dirt poor Armenian kids in Armenia, nor does Kim Kardashians pretty face or body.
In his book, Agassi praised EVERY imaginable person EXCEPT his own people.
So, I don't understand why you should be proud of this selfish young man. I, on the other hand, love, admire and praise Cher, Kirk Kirkorian, Mike Conors, and many others, who were NOT ASHAMED of their ancestry, why should you? You can dye your hair blond, you can use blue contact lenses and wear western clothes, but you SHOULD NEVER BE ASHAMED OF YOUR ANCESTRY.
Delshad
I am a Kurd, and a proud Kurd at that. You and I know that the Turks USED us to achieve their objectives, yes or no? My grandfather told me how he killed innocent and defenseless Armenians, we were part of this Genocidal Turks objectives, WE FELL FOR THAT TRAP, and look what happened to us, now they are bombing and have already killed 30,000 innocent Kurds. I still have to see one Armenian soldier in Kurdistan, what's more, our Yezidi brothers are well taken care of and are thriving in the Republic of Armenia. Most Armenians symphatize with us, we either stand together or fall together. If you put your lot with the Genocidal Turk, then go ahead, we have had 1000s of traitors in our history. Before we were converted to the Islamic religion, we were/are, just like the Armenians, Indo-european peoples, worshipping exactly the same "gods" as the Armenians did. We fell for the Turkish trick, only because the Tuirks promised us freedon and because of our Muslim religion.
You tell me if the Turk has given us our freedom? We can't teach our languages in our schools, we don't have autonomy, we have nothing, plus the Turk calls us "Mountain Turks" a derogatory name for a proud old people like us. They are the Mountain Turks, they are violent and bloodthirsty. On the other hand, our Yezidi Kurds enjoy 100% freedom in Armenia. I was in Armenia in 2007. Visited Yezidi villages and schools....LO AND BEHOLD, they are FREE to learn our Kurdish language, have Kurdish language newspapers, serve in the army and are not descriminated because they are Kurds(there is a high level Yezidi officer corps in the Armenian army). You decide who is hurting us: The Turk? or the Armenian? If you see one Armenian soldier bombing Kurdish women and children, I will commit suicide..there are none. Look around in and around Diyarbekir, and you will see HALF of the Turkish army stationed there, ahhh they are there to protect us, right? The reason the bulk of the Turkish army is stationed there is not because we are beautiful people, have big hazel beautiful eyes, or our women are of exceptional beauty...my friend the ONLY reason for them to be in Kurdish populated areas is because they want to S U B J U G A T E us, put us down, surround us like animals. Don't let our religion get in the way of our friendship with the Armenians. Most Armenians symphatize with our daily struggles, yeah we had our differences, we fought, we killed, but hey, I am tired of Turkish lies lies lies lies and more lies. The only time I will believe a Turk again, is when they give our dignity and our freedom for an independant Kurdistan, otherwise we are foolishly continueing their dirty job, and all the time they are enslaving us.
We are an honorable and proud people. we talk and walk the truth. Yes, we were tricked into believing the Turk and falling for their dirty schemes. Yes, our parliament accepted our complicity in the Genocide, and for Gods sakes, we will be friends, whether we like it or not. You want your Kurdish people disappear from Turkish Kurdistan? then by all means let the Turk Turkify us all. But if you think that it is high time for us Kurds to scream WITH ONE CLEAR AND HIGH VOICE for FREEDOM, then please come back to our poor but proud Kurdistan and help us achieve our dreams. We are in such a screwed situation now, that the whole world are laughing at us. 30 million Kurds, 20 in occupied Kurdistan in Turkey, and we have absolutely N O B - L L S facing the Turks. We need to learn from the Armenians. Did you know that in 1918, after 99.99% of their population was decimated by the Genocide, they stood up, and with a mere 1,000-2,000 poorly trained and armed soldiers, repelled and beat the 300,000 Turkish regular army led by Gen Karabekir in three battles? How about us? 20 million strong, but have not produced one soldier to fight our enslavers. If you want, we can raise an army of 5 million tomorrow, but we are so traumatized by the Turks, that we won't even raise a finger, and at the same time complain about Turkish suppression.
We are not the same Kurds that Turks want us to be, uneducated and tribal. The first thing that I will do if one day I become a leader of the Kurds, is dismantle our tribes and unite all Kurds. No more divisions in our people, those who try to divide us will face swift justice.
You either stand up and ask for your dignity and pride like a proud Kurd, or you become a turncoat and serve our masters in Ankara. The choice is yours my brother.
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!
LONG LIVE FREE AND INDEPENDANT KURDISTAN
ARMENIANS ARE NOT OUR ENEMY, THE TURK IS. PERIOD.
Delshad
Mr. Astarjians article was all TRUE. There was nothing derogatory written about our people.
He merely was trying to educate us about the Turk, who until today, calls us derogatory names.
It is a mystery to me why us Kurds tremble in front of a Turk. Who are they? Gods? Our masters?
They simply have traumatized us into submission, and the events are engrained in our brains, and therefore we have become the laughing stock for the Turks.
Mr Astarjian was simply exposing the what Turks really think of us. Isn't 30,000 dead innocent Kurds enough? Should we sacrifise 2 million more? When is it for us to stand up and ask for our DIGNITY? You tell me when? Will you be happy to see a foreign flag(Turkish blood flag) on your home? We will Not be cowed again into submission. Come on, let's save the honor of our people Now, before they assimilate us. Assimilation is going on a furious pace. Already 3 million Kurds consider themselves Turks. Why call ourselves Kurds, if we continuously fall for the Turkish tricks and games. Why don't we forget our proud history, and all of us become Turk?
Centuries of serfdom has made all Kurds blind. I want to see my Kurdish people join hands with this small but courageous people, the Armenians and drive off the newcomer Turkish hordes from our lands. If 900 Armenian freedom fighters drove off 23,000 Azeris, 5,000 Afghan Taliban and a hodgepodge of weird and violent mercenaries from Artsakh, then why can't we do the same? You know why? Because we enjoy our serfdom, whereas the Armenian always strived for freedom.
There is my answer to you my Kurdish compatriot.
We will forever be the slaves of the Turks, sad but true, unless you help us stand up and cry for freedom.
I've been greatly encouraged to read the comments from both Armenians and Kurds on this issue - that is our unity in common causes of mutual interest to both our peoples.
A few years back I had the opportunity to visit the Old Country, the place where we Armenians from the Disapora have our origins. My family was from Hussineg, as small town in the Kharpert province. My grandfather Avedis lost his mother and father, younger brother and younger sister there, during the Armenian Genocide. I can still remember my mother when her feet touched the ground in Hussineg. She cried tears of memories, from her father - a Genocide survivor, from her grandparents and lost uncle and aunt that she never knew. My mom and I were able to find the house my granfather had lived in as a boy. A sweet elderly Zaza Kurd woman was living there. She and my mother, although of very different dress and custom, had an immediate bond, as if they shared a common path. I can still remember her parting words to us, "I'm sorry that we are in your house."
That trip to the Old Country made me realize that we Armenians and Kurds have so very much more in common than we have differences. Together we have a chance to make our ancient land a better place that we both can share.
Thank you Dr. Deranian for the kind words.
Kurds in general are sincere about their intentions for the future.
But 1000 years of enslavement and serfdom under the Turks, made most of us forget our history and people. I tell you Dr. Deranian, that there are millions of Kurds who think and act like Turks, WHY? Because we lost our identity, our culture, our dignity. We started to become Turkish, a few million Kurds are lost forever. Next is our religion, Islam, I am a Muslim and love my religion, having said that, Turks have used Islam as a cover to strangle all Kurds into submission. Most Kurds easily will believe a word coming from the mouth of a single Turk, then coming from the mouths of 1.5 million Armenians. You may ask, "But why?" My answer to you is plain and simple:
Centuries of serving our lords and masters in Ankara and Istanbul, has weakened our souls, made us blind, made us unable to diffrentiate between enemy and foe. So great is the Turkish influence on our daily lives, that some Kurds have forgotten their Indo-European ancestry, and have started to believe that us Kurds are really the lost "mountain Turks." Some of us are s traumatized and enslaved that we will raise our guns and continue killing Armenians. And all the time, the real enemy, is hiding behind the walls and laughing out loud.
Fortunately, Education and the sense of pride in our long and proud history, is making our young Kurdish people see the TRUTH. I did, I once abhored and hated the Armenians, I was young and brainwashed by my Turkish lords. But then, quite by accident I found that our Kurdish people was also traumatized and killed by the Turk. First we lost between 3-4 million Kurds to the Turks, we call it, GENOCIDE BY ASSIMILATION, TURKIFIED. Next I saw bombs flying over our heads and killing 30,000 people, all Kurdish.
I also believe that all Kurds here on this forums want to learn and be informed. I believe that my compatriots Delshad and Kurdish Nationalist are good Kurds who will/are doing their duty for our people. We have 30 million Kurds worlwide, but almost 85% are confused about their ethnicity because for thousands of years we were enslaved and still are in Turkey today. I hope my Kurdish people will wake up from their dreams and ask the Turk for dignity and freedom. That is all.
It's good to read your words Ferhat. Your passion to reclaim Kurdish history reall comes through and reminds me of the famous Kurd, Saladin. Quoting from Wikepedia, "His family was of Kurdish background and ancestry, and had originated from the city of Dvin, in medieval Armenia." A clear example I think of how Armenians and Kurds are connected along common paths.
True story: Years ago, probably in the 1950's, a well-known Armenian American in the US military was stationed in Turkey. In his exploarations, he was sitting around a campfire with Kurds. I believe they did not know he was of Armenian ancestry. They told him how in the old days they used to "slit the throats of Armenians."
Nevertheless, Dr. Astarjian has broached, as he has in the past, a necessary topic: Kurds.
Armenians need to learn more about Kurds - both their leaders and intellectuals as well as the Kurds "on the ground" in Turkey and elsewhere. From my readings about Turks (for example, McDowall's book), Kurds have been very tribal and will betray not only each other but will also switch sides (for Turks or against them, for Persians or against them) at the drop of a hat.
One question that has always been in my mind is, in the final analysis, all other things being equal, would Kurds - if one can general about them - side with their fellow Muslims (the Turks) against Armenians -- or would Kurds side with Armenians against Turks ? Put another way, are Kurds more natural allies of the Turks or of Armenians?
My New Years Message to Sarkisian is SHAME ON HIM. Hazar amot.
I clicked on this story with the intention of seeing one word in his address and I didn't find it.
I was looking for the word RESIGNATION.
Dr. Deranian, if we only were united like the Armenians, we would have had our republic long time ago, maybe in 1920s. But, unfortunately for us Kurds, we are divided in such a dangerous way, that our enemies use us to fight amongst ourselves. Kurds have killed more brother Kurds on behalf of Ataturks and Saddams. It just boggles my mind as to why????????
Why cannot we be united like the Armenians, the Jews or the Turks. Once again our "tribalism" is killing us and denying us our lost independance. And the Turkish government has used our weaknesses fully to its advantage.
You read what my Kurdish brother Delshad wrote about 60,000 Kurds, I call them dogs, slaves, serfs...working for the enemy to subjugate non other than their own Kurdish people. Why would I sell my people for a few Turkish Liras? I never understood my people. We complain 24 hours a day and since 2000 B.C. that "us Kurds have no friends," and it is right. We simply DON'T have any friends. But we are to blame, because we never stood up for freedom, 20 million Kurds concentrated in South East Turkey, and we cannot muster a few hundred fighters, and then I look at Artsakh, and how a small Armenian people stood up, and with a force no larger than 900-1000 threw 23,000 Azeri soldiers, 5,000 Taliban terrorists and thousands more of weird looking, bloodthirsty murderer mercenaries. Now you see why I am upset at my people. We complain, but tremble the first Turkish tank we encounter, and run away. Our self esteem is way too low, our opression under the Turks turned us into obedient servants for this Genocidal Turkish regime. We cry for heroes, but have none. We cry for freedom, but not single Kurd wants to stand up and fight. I am in total disbelief why my own people complains but takes no action at all. We have "republics" on the web nets..only. We become proud for our "republic of Kurdistan" website which makes us look like complete fools.
WHY NOT HAVE THE REAL, FREE AND INDEPENDANT REPUBLIC OF KURDISTAN? WHY NOT?
We are doomed to be Turkified in 20-50 years time. We have no future. All all the blame is squarely on our shoulders. It is sad that our young Kurds have no interest whatsoever for the future of our race. We rather serve our oppressors and be Turkified, then raise our voices like one man and scream with one voice:"Give us our freedom."
Good point Drtad.
What you wrote is so right.
Turks use us and Kudos to them, I honestly salute them for being able to play us Kurds against other Kurds. Trust me, Kurds will foolishly side with the Genocidal Turk, even though Turks have done us more harm and have enslaved us and surround us with an army numbering 300,ooo, almost half of the Turkish army is stationed around us. Maybe we are so cute and beautiful, and they love us and are trying to protect us. That's why we are trying to educate our people. Herding cows and goats for our masters in Ankara has kept us down and under. Kurdish intellectuals are fighting an uphill battle to bring education to every single Kurdish village. It is a hard job. he Turks have done a SUPER job putting us down and basically stealing our souls and imprisoning our minds.
Please tell all Armenians, and Turks of high morals to visit Kurdish websites and make connections with our young. They need to hear about FREEDOM. Freedom to have our own country, freedom to teach our own language at schools, freedom to have Kurdish language TVs and Radio stations. But the most important thing: FREEDOM TO DECIDE OUR OWN FUTURE and SEPERATION FROM TURKEY. We are Not Turks, we never were, we will never become one, unless we sit and enjoy our serfdom.
I read in a newspaper the other day that the Kurds are a mixture of Turkic people who intermixed with IndoEuropean people. Who are the Armenians, a tribe of ??? that followed a God called Khaldini,(sp?) and later intermixed with IndoEuropean people.
I also thought the Armenians came from somewhere in Greece. If so, they then intermarried with IndoEuropeans? In any event, they are a very exotic and interesting people.
The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).
Every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in presidential elections.
The bill would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes--that is, enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).
The Constitution gives every state the power to allocate its electoral votes for president, as well as to change state law on how those votes are awarded.
The bill is currently endorsed by over 1,659 state legislators (in 48 states) who have sponsored and/or cast recorded votes in favor of the bill.
In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided). The recent Washington Post, Kaiser Family Foundation, and Harvard University poll shows 72% support for direct nationwide election of the President. This national result is similar to recent polls in closely divided battleground states: Colorado-- 68%, Iowa --75%, Michigan-- 73%, Missouri-- 70%, New Hampshire-- 69%, Nevada-- 72%, New Mexico-- 76%, North Carolina-- 74%, Ohio-- 70%, Pennsylvania -- 78%, Virginia -- 74%, and Wisconsin -- 71%; in smaller states (3 to 5 electoral votes): Delaware --75%, Maine -- 77%, Nebraska -- 74%, New Hampshire --69%, Nevada -- 72%, New Mexico -- 76%, Rhode Island -- 74%, and Vermont -- 75%; in Southern and border states: Arkansas --80%, Kentucky -- 80%, Mississippi --77%, Missouri -- 70%, North Carolina -- 74%, and Virginia -- 74%; and in other states polled: California -- 70%, Connecticut -- 74% , Massachusetts -- 73%, New York -- 79%, Washington -- 77%, and West Virginia- 81%. Support is strong in every partisan and demographic group surveyed.
The National Popular Vote bill has passed 29 state legislative chambers, in 19 small, medium-small, medium, and large states, including one house in Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Oregon, and both houses in California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington. The bill has been enacted by Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, and Washington. These five states possess 61 electoral votes -- 23% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.
See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com
Another thing, ancient Greece was the cradle of civilization and democracy; one article in Haaretz, noted how the ancient civilizations were democratic; today, so many are authoritarian. Cyrus the Great, an Armenian and a democratic leader, was considered to be a messiah and saviour to the Jewish people because he helped them rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. He was known to be good to all the people he conquered. So I would not be surprised if the Armenians came from Greece originally. However, the origins of the Turks and Kurds is probably in Asia and I think they are intermixed. I think the Armenians are closer to the Greeks historically and culturally. Although today so many people are intermixed, including my family, that the racial lines don't exist any more.
Yes Dear Mr. Sassounian, we have to be hopeful and put that very hope in every Armenian alive. In our Homeland or in the Diaspora. For whithout hope, there is no will to survive or thrive; as hope is as much important for a nation as the bread for a man.
I do agree with you Mr. Malayan, we have the worst government alive. Corrupted, Turkophil, sold our country to our number one enemy, pockets the incoming monies from outside, such as I heard Kirkorian's money as well, that is intended for the country's well being and for the benefit of the people to build businesses, hospitals and schools. Sarkissian's government builds his own selfish entourage to make himself more powerful for his own benefit to reign with an iron fist. They are all corrupted in a worse way, unpatriotic sorts. And if they stay, it shall be to the demise of Armenia's sovereignty. To top it off, they have 65% of their corrupted people to be in agreement with them within the Armenian assembly so they would accept the dire and the dangerous protocols.
If we wish to have hope, any hope for the continuation of Armenia's sovereignty as well as Artsakh's; Armenia must soon elect a government that will be unselfish enough to think for Armenia alone and not just for themselves, their own pockets or their own corrupted powers. We must have the true unselfish patriots as in the past, who loved their people and their country same as our first Republic's prime ministers; like Hovhannes Katchaznouni, Alexander Khadissian, Hamo Ohanchanian and Simeon Vratsian. We need the very same souls as these four great men for our heads of state. I can only think of one party that will have in their ranks who can come close to the four giants that I mentioned above. Some people may call them dreamers, or too much of idealists; but then I say without dreams, aspirations and idealisms; where are we? I would wholeheartedly vote for the A.R.F. Tashnagtsoutyoun. This is the only party I am left with hope to continue our will to survive as a nation, and perhaps for someday to regain our beloved long lost and stolen lands.
God Bless Mardik, he was active in the A.Y.F. & former member of the A.R.F. Our condolences to his wife and two sons. His father General Dro Kanayan will also never be forgotten in protecting & fighting the Turks for the Armenian Nation.
jesus christ man
is armenian genocide allegation only your business in this world ?
china doesn't even get critisized that much
Genocide Denial:
Well, according to Greek historians, Kurds and Armenians alongside the Iranians have been inhabiting the lands between current day Turkey and Iran. Linguistically, yes, Armenians are very close to the Greeks, also some Greek historians were surprised to see Armenian soldiers using almost identical swords, body armor and forming phalanxes during wars. Current day historians believe that the Armenians came from Greece, migrated East, reached the Armenian highlands and intermixed with the local populace.
Whereas us and the Iranians are culturally and linguistically, if I may add, are close. Greek general Xenophon clearly mentioned the Kurds and the Armenians by name when retreating from Persia.
As for the Turks, historically their ancestral lands were in Central Asian deserts. They are newcomers to our part of the world.
As for your false comment that Kurds are a mixture of Turks(?). First of all, Kurds are Indo-Europeans, alongside the Armenians and the Iranians, the original inhabitants of the Iranian-Armenian plateau. Nothing Turkish was mentioned by historians until Mehmet Fatih and his predessessors came down Central Asian deserts and entered the Armenian highlands through Northern Caucasus and Iran. But if you ask me if the "current" Kurds are mixed with Turks, well, unfortunately, and with sadness and grief in our hearts, my answer is Yes. Current day Kurds are mixed with Iranians, Armenians and Turks.
Linguistically, we borrowed words from each other, but Kurdish language is almost 90% Iranian.
Our tragedy will be when Turks will overwhelm us byy assimilating us with them. That day is close. very close, unless we stop them in their tracks. There will not be a single Kurd left in Turkey, if Kurds continue sleeping while being culturally and linguistically assimilated. For us Kurds, it is a matter of life and death. We either will collectively decide to become Turks, Or we will decide to fight this Islamic leaning Turkish government and secede. We have, mind you, already lost between 2-4 million Kurds not in a physical Genocide, but in Genocide of assimilation. We are losing the battle to survive as a seperate people. We are fighting a monumental battle to wake up Kurdish nationalism and save our people. Millions are lost to the Turks, we will fight our last battle to survive, and all the time we will have hope in our hearts, survival in our thoughts, peace in our hearts.
Turkey is fast becoming Islamized, in the fanatical sense, government members are almost all former Afghan Islamist symphatizers, and are overwhelmingly anti-Israel and anti-Jewish. Does anyone remember how Erdogan, on world TV screens, made Israel look like a criminal state? I felt sorry for the old man Perez, he almost cried. Later I heard that Perez vowed not to allow any Turk to belittle Jews...such are Turks, no matter what, they will stab you in your back. Israel helps, trains and sends Turkey money and food, and for what? Strategic alliance? How long will Israel be humiliated on the hands of this turkish government? How long will Turks carry signs that says: "No dogs, Jews and Armenians allowed?"
Turks have done such a fabulous job misleading Israel, I heard from a jewish physician friend of mine, who sadly proclaimed that the only country that has the power to infiltrate all levels of Israeli government and intelligence, is Turkey. They have infiltrated Israeli government so deep, that it will take Israel 50 years to remove all the moles planted in their government.
You see, Turks think that we are uneducated, stupid, goat herders. We were, we were unable to free ourselves from our former masters. They used us to do their dirty jobs. They are using us today for their own purposes.
We never learned from the Armenians that" to die as a free man was more honorable than be a living slave. " Looking back, wow, this small people, and against all odds, alone, forsaken, betrayed time and again by all, demanded freedom, yes they paid a high price for that single elementary human demand, to be free, but now they have a small republic. Whereas us Kurds, 20 million strong in Turkey alone, having accepted that Turks become our absolute masters and us their slaves, have nothing. We have a Free Kurdish republic, but its on a website. This is a joke, a complete and sad joke. And anyone who goes on our websites, will read anything but "freedom for Kurds." If we don't move now, we are doomed to lose whatever we have.
God almighty we are fighting a monumental uphill battle, we will soon disappear if we stay quiet any longer. Your assessment that we are a mixture of Turks has finally becoming a reality. We are a doomed people. Our end is near.
May God have mercy on my Kurdish people.
The word Semitic was invented by Jewish scholars. The Armenian, Assyrian, Canaan, Greek, Arabs and other so called Semitics are from Africa. They conquered the land of Airyanem Vaejah in the land connections between Red Sea and Mediterranean Sea. The process took thousand of years before they reached Mesopotamia.
The Kurds are from Mede people they are the descendent of Matiene (Mede and Pars) from the Airyanem Vaejah nations, they are original people of the region. They are the original inhabitant of Eurasia, Mesopotamia and part of Asia lived nomad lives before settling in the region. They lived side by side with Armenian people for thousand of years before Turkish arrival.
They fought each other on and off but they used to be civilized never finished each others. They are opposite of Turks whom they came from Altaic culture of violence like their counter part Mongolian relative.
I just found out 2500 years old written Kurdish language, proving our civilizations for eleven thousand years history in my coming book soon.
I believe the people in the region can build an Economic Union similar to the EU to live in peace with each other. We Kurds, Armenian hurt each others many time. It is time to get united to stop Turkish aggressions. We united against Assyrian Empire aggressions before. They used to kill people like Turks are doing today.
We are sorry for the Armenian genocide. Yes we are guilty because Kurdish tribe’s man uneducated people, helped Ottoman Empire under the Islamic doctrine (Jeihad), when the Turk eliminated 1.5 million Armenian people.
We need to get united for survival. There is enough of wealth in the region for survival.
Hye, recent news of the Turkish leaderships, indicate a Turkey that is in decay, decayed, and decaying - while lying to the world that it is a forward moving leadership! Even capable of 'aiding'
other nations whom Turkey shall negotiate!! Turkey is as a ship that is sinking...
Unburied, the bones of our Martyred now know of the demise they were awaiting for all leaderships that perpetred the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenians on their own lands, slaughtering, kidnapping, rapes, of the victims, more . Then Turkish lies, including endless denials of guilt...
Unbelievable - even blaming the victims - as deserving of their slaughters, and more.
Turks, still are of the hordes that emanated from the Asian mountains - stole Armenians lands and culture to be their own. Yet, Turks could never, over the centuries, rise to join with the civilized nations of the world... the Turkish leaderships lead to their own demise - verchabess!
Manooshag
P.S. what now, US lobbyists for a Turkey? what now, U.S. Department of State? what now, Obama?
Armenia has keep Russia hundred of years on his side against to Turks. Still can not achive what they want. Now get the Kurds, not enough get the Arabs but, nobody teach you that,
"One Turk is equivalent to you all" or your Kurdish friend will teach you that.
Our voices are getting louder, our numbers are growing, our support base is branching out, and the truth is revealed increasingly by day.
Kurds and Armenians are brothers, the Kurdish people have never.. and I say never.. In no historical book or in any university denied the Armenian Genocide. And they all admit the truth about their history.
Jesus taught us to forgive and love our neighbours and the Kurds... they are our neighbours.
Kurdistan is a reality! Armenia is with you!
Hy tuncer: I wish for you and your people to survive a Genocide. I wish for you to never see any of your family - ever. I wish for you to lose your lands, lose your home, lose all that a normal person holds dear... then, the perpetrator lies and denies all the pain your nation has suffered from the Genocide for the nearly next one hundred years (100 years)... What kind of a human would you be if you shall ever forget a Genocide - probably a Turk. Manooshag
Hamma, we are a doomed race. Turks are assimilating us fater than the speed of sound. We need to stand up like one man and scream for liberty. Xenophon wrote about our ancesters, that they were so independant minded, that when Cyrus the great sent an army of 120,000 to subjugate us, not one soldier returned alive. But look at us now...scared, cowed and silent. We have become good obedient slaves for the Turks. We need to start to see who our enemy is. The Armenian? of course not. I have to see one Armenian soldier in Kurdistan bombing us. It was, is and always be the Genocial Turk our number one enemy. They are committing a heinous Genocide against our people, the Genocide of assimilation.
Unfortunately the Turks have oil companies, weapons makers, EU liberals/apologists, and the US State Department on their side. There is a good chance Turkey can decay from within with regards to the growing alienations between islamists and Kemalists as well as fractures with the Kurds. In the end, the Kurds may find themselves in an advantageous position when this all shakes out although this could take decades. The islamists and Kurds are not growing any less restive, that's for sure.
Oh, China did not butcher 2 million Turks.
Since 1949, China killed 1,899 Turks. How dare you compare Chinese 2,000 with Turkish 3 million?
Greetings from Kurdistan
Ferhat
Billionavor amot kezi baron sarkisian. Togh Asdvadz achkeret pana yev turkeren heroo bahe.
Here we go again. Of the 26 comments to the ill-timed Astarjian article, to this minute 7 are by Ferhat Delshad covering some 246 lines (may be he is writing another letter), 3 are from other Kurds for 30 lines, 2 are from other non-Armenians covering 15 lines, and there are only 76 lines by 10 Armenians. Ferhat keeps writing non-stop, pushing his agenda of free publicity. And he has the audacity to make uninformed comments about the origin of Armenians (as is Hamma Mirwaisi who writes in broken English "The Armenian, Assyrian, Canaan, Greek, Arabs and other so called Semitics are from Africa." Rerally?). Ferhat has very skillfully pulled the wool over our eyes by turning the discussion to the Genocide, shedding crocodile tears, and he is turning Astarjian's naivete into a forum to push the Kurdish cause. More power to Kurds and my admiration for him; he is a good Kurd talking about a noble cause. But not at our expense, fellows. Let him, and the good doctor Deranian, and the good doctor Jeshmaridian, and others who might be impressed by Ferhat's Goebeltzian methodology, let those folks go read Zartonk, the historical novel by Malkhas, all five volumes of it, to know a bit more about Kurds. It is written in Armenian, and I doubt it very much if Astarjian, or Deranian, or Jeshmaridian can read Armenian (if they could, they would not have made conciliatory comments). Maybe someone will translate a few lines for them. To be fair to Ferhat, though, the only true statement he has nade, albeit unwittingly, is where he says even if Turkey would hypothetically return all Armenian territories, at the rate Armenians are moving out of Armenia how would we populate the area. I cannot find the exact quote (he has written so much!) but, sadly, this is a true statement. Hey, Editor at Armenian Weekly, wake up, Kurds decimated us just as routinely as Turks did; you shouldn't permit Ferhat take up so much space. What do they say about ducks quacking?
Now that Ferhat and Hamma Mirwaisi and "Kurdish Nationalist" and JDA and other Kurdish readers are making such sweet comments about their Armenian "brothers," may be we should follow suite and learn from our Jewish brethren and declare, "All those whose one parent is Armenian, is Armenian." Thus, half of Kurds would be Armenians and half of Turks would be Armenians, and our population would jump to astronomical numbers. And had we not sat idly and played Nardee for the 70 years of Soviet domination, and instead had we made babies, then our population would kick out all Turks and Azeris back to Mongolia and Turkmanestan, and Kurds to Kurdestan next to their historical neighbor Lorestan, and had we "housed" a few bombs in our silos from the Soviet days, then, and only then, we could sit back, ralax and play Nardee. For now we have a lot of work in our hands trying to keep our heads above the water.
Will Henry Astarjian write a different travelogue? Say, to Australia?
For my Kurdish people, Armenians were our immediate neighbours, sometimes friends and sometimes adversaries. Both of our peoples have never resorted to "exterminate" the other, throughout our histories. Our poets wrote songs and poems, whenever they saw a courageous and chivalrous Armenian Fedayi adversary. We never ever intended to exterminate each other ....until the arrival of the Turks.
I have heard about Gen. Dro, but not his son. We never ever had a chance to call Gen. Dro a courageous adversary and foe. But the General fought a fair fight. All Armenian generals were of highest caliber and were admired for their chivalry.
I want to take this chance and thank the Armenian people for having had such great generals, the likes of (apologoes if I misprint any of their names here):
1. Gen Silikian (my favourite, and one of the most courageous of all, executed on Stalins order). The republic of Armenia has to acknowledge this "kind and unpretentious" general with a statue.
2. Gen. Nazarbegian (generous and humble general)
3. Gen. Dro (exemplifies Fire and Ice)
4. Gen. Andranik ( a good leader, our gallant adversary)
5. Gen. Nzteh [Turks always were scared of this great general, until today some Turks talk about Gen. Nzteh with awe, (their ultimate headache,) as if he still was alive].
These generals never shied away from personally leading their soldiers to the front.
May they all rest in peace. Their job has been done. Armenia was saved.
Kurdish nation salutes all these chivalrous and kind generals.
May one day, our young Kurdish soldiers be as gallant and chivalrous as were these great generals.
Ferhat
PS: Currently I am reading two books about the Republic of Armenia 1918-1921. A life and death story of your courageous people. Interesting and awe inspiring.
I regret the two or three typographical errors in my previous writing, but I MUST respond to Grikor for his "Kurds and Armenians are brothers." My dear 'akhbar,' Kurds and Armenians are NOT brothers. In the name of civility I hesitate the use of 'expletives' but if you say "the Kurdish people have never.. and I say never.. In no historical book or in any university denied the Armenian Genocide" it is because they, the Kurds, were a major, I say MAJOR, player in the Genocide. Why don't you go read my previous letter and educate yourself as to who Kurds are before you blurt out more nonsense. Ferhat continues with nine more lines of kurdophilia; total 255 lines.
Thank you Mr. President, your words were thoughtful. As the elected president of Armenia, you have been doing a wonderful job considering you've had to deal with that idiot Levon Ter Petrosyan and those incompetent fools at the ARF.
May God grant you happiness so you can continue leading our proud people!
Wow, what was that about?
Aramazd, Kurds apologized for their complicity in the Genocide. What else should or could I do to alleviate the pain and suffering of your people? I write every day to my Kurdish friends about the Armenian people, and the ways we should find to establish contacts with. You are an intelligent young man, I am past 60 and deeply worried about the annihilation of both of our peoples. Fortunately for us Kurds, we still have 30 million left, even though assimilation has picked up its pace. As for you, 3 million and decreasing fast, it does worry me seeing Armenia emptied of its people. I rather see Armenia populated by Christian Armenians, rather than Turks. Your beating on the Kurds, who mind you, accepted our share of the Genocide, is understandable, but naive. What for? What would you win antagonizing Kurds? What could Kurds do to make you feel better? Tell me, and I'll do anything you ask.
Here is a people, who came clean, apologized, and will continue to apologize. You should direct your anger at th Genocidal Turk. Who until today, continues killing Armenians. Does the killing of Hrant Dink ring a bell?
You are falling into a Turkish trap. This is how they will interpret your very naive outbursts:
" Well, look at Kurds they apologized as a nation and people, but Armenians are still dragging this thing, so why should we apologize, if people like Aramazd will non stop attack us..."
You know Aramazd, I am older than you, I honestly and sincerely understand your pain. But redirect your anger at the government which is harassing and killing Armenians to this day. And do not fall into a Turkish trap, it will be hard for you to escape your chains. Emotions do not solve extremely sensitive and important issues like the Genocide.
Aramazd, because you attacked Kurds, you will not make me stop telling and informing everyone I meet, about the Armenian Genocide. Whether you like Kurds or not, is irrelevant.
I am an architect, and a Kurdish nationalist. The first time I saw an Armenian Church I was 11 years old. I stopped and looked for at least 45 minutes, dazed and in awe. Beautiful straight lines, massive stones..I asked my mother who are these people who built such beautiful churches. Her answer, of course, the Armenians. But where are they now, I inquired? Her answer? Driven off by the Turks and Kurds. From that day on, I decided that I never will visit that church, until Armenians returned and lived and used their church as a place of worship. And after, if a kind Armenian friend invites me inside during a church service, I would gladly accept the offer.
I learned to speak Western Armenian(with an accent...yev kich me gue gemgmam) by myself, spent 3 years of my life learning your beautiful language, I write Armenian fluently, read Armenian fluently. How many of you have read books about your own history? Culture? Poetry? Novels? I have read books about Armenia. You will be surprised to see that a lot of Kurds read Armenian history books. I for one, have read all of Malkhaz's books. currently reading Dr. Hovhanessians books. Read Raffi, Tumanian(my favouriet), Silva Gabudigians ( U des vordis ur el lines....) poem simply tears me up, Daniel Varujan, Siamanto, Krikor Zohrap ( love his "chartvadz haghchabagin") . Read about your poets and writers. Know every Fedayi and general by name. I know the biographies of ALL Armenians politicians and generals of the 1918-1921 Armenia. I can challenge you any time of day for a duel in Armenian History, and I'll execute the duel not in my Kurdish, but your Armenian language. I can comfortably say that I know more about your history, than 10 young Armenians combined. Why am I immersed studying the Armenian people? Because I love the Armenian people. Because you are our neighbour, our friend, sometimes our foe (as Dr Astarjian put it), plus as an architect, I fell in love with the Armenian churches and Khachkars. No matter how much you beat on me, you will never seperate me from this beautiful people called the Armenians.
It is, however sad, to see very few Armenians contributing to this forums.
I personally don’t deny Kurdish involvement in the Armenian Genocide and most of the Kurds condemn that; however at the same time believe that the Kurdish involvement in the Genocide has not been an involvement of the whole nation, it has been involvement of some tribes who were on Turkish pay role. There is historical document to prove that other Kurdish tribes did protect a substantial number of Armenians. Professor Kamal Mazhar, a Kurdish historian, in his book (Kurdistan during the First World War. 1982), which has been written in Arabic, sheds light on the Armenian Genocide from a Kurdish point of view, their involvement and the Turkish atrocities. We should be aware that unfortunately in some cases, tribal structure of Kurdish society allowed that the enemy of Kurds to use some of them not just against their neighbouring nation such as Armenian, but also against the Kurds themselves. During 1988 when Saddam Husain carried out the Genocide against the Kurds, which resulted in killing over 200,000 civilian Kurds, some Kurdish tribes participated in this atrocity as well; this has been well documented. I am not trying to justify atrocities; however we should all become aware of the nature of Kurdish involvement and the Turkish involvement. The Turks systematically orchestrated the Armenian Genocide and there are even historical document which shows that the Turks, at the time of the Genocide, set free many criminals from prison, wore them Kurdish cloth and used them to kill the Armenian. Turks encouraged some Kurdish tribal involvement to make the Kurds and enemy of Armenian, hence was trying to kill two birds with one stone. I would not hesitate to say that the Armenian Genocide is solely orchestrated by the Turks and would hold them solely responsible for this systematic and well calculated atrocity which has not only been carried out against Armenian, but the whole humanity. While majority of Kurds condemn involvement of few Kurdish tribes’, the Turk still deny the Genocide and history has proved that the Turks has been and still a racist, intimidating and oppressing nation, and they would not hesitate to commit such atrocities again, whenever an opportunity arises. We should all be aware of the enemy of humanity, the Turks, and while I believe it’s in our mutual interests to discuss our differences, however we should not fall for the Turkish dirty trap.
Whenever there has been a opportunity, Kurds have proved that they are a tolerant and open minded nation, i.e. one of the most powerful minster in the Kurdish Regional Government in South Kurdistan (Iraq), has been an Armenian named, Sarkis Aghajan (assigned by the Kurdistan Regional Government), who during the last 10 years been commissioned by The Kurdistan government to rebuild the Christian villages which were destroyed during Saddam Hussein’s era, because while the Christian in the whole Iraq are killed, they are well protected in the Kurdistan and more churches have been build for them (western media have reported it on many occasion). It’s no wonder that Dante, the Christian and Religious Philosopher of the Medieval Europe, in his book ‘Hundred Greatest Soles’, counted Saladin as one of the great soles of all time, not because he fought the Crusaders, but because he showed greater humanity while he was fighting his opponents.
Dear Ferhat, how good of you to remember practically all our wonderfully great generals of the recent past, for indeed they were all admirably courageous and intelligent leaders. I do indeed hope that your future Kurdish soldiers would be as gallant and as chivalrous as our generals were. As a matter of fact, General Dro was once a host at my grandfather's house as my own grandfather fought against the Turks on the mountains of Cilicia for about 2 years, because he also had his own troop and used to tell me many stories about it when I was very young. General Antranik wrote books and in one of his tiny books that I owned, he said somewhere that the Turkish people are like "bashebozook" and they cannot form a truly good nation because of it. And we can see today the crumbling nation as it is.
tuncer, I voice the same as Manooshag said justly above. My own family and our Armenian nation suffered a de-human death and you come up here and have the odesity to say anything but a remorse? Then I voice the same as Manooshag's justly outbirst.
Please excuse me if I'm not completely up-to-date on the various comments as I have been away for a day. With that said I want to say a little something (hopefully more to follow in later comments) about a young Armenian's comments to Ferhat. I will start with what my grandfather, Avedis Deranian, a Genocide survivor use to say, "Never make an enemy if you don't have to." Good advise I think for Armenians and Kurds. Let's face it folks, we have a common enemy, the Turkish government, in one form or another, that has been at our throats for 1000 years. They've used us (also the Greek Byzantines - whole other topic) against each other. Most importantly to all Armenians, lets not forget the Armenian traitors that did our own people in, e.g. Armenians that compiled lists of Armenian intellectuals to deport to Chankiri and Ayash on the night of April 24. Comparatively there are many examples of Kurds (thinking especially of the Dersim Kurds) that riskes their own lives to save Armenians.
The essential point I'm getting at here is not to judge an individual based on their group. To do so is at worst extremely naive and at worst very dangerous.
I think the ill conceived secretly hatched protocols, which we all know only benefits the self appointed oligarchs, woke the diaspora up. I believe the diaspora must and will be more involved in the political and decision making process in Armenia from here on out. How absurd to give all the ruling power to one man. He is not a king and worse, doesn't represent the interest of the whole. The diaspora understands that these ruling self serving thugs must go. The question is how?
Thank you Soran.
Millions of our peoples have been Turkified. And that is alarming to us. We will, from this day on, fight on for our independance. No more phony "autonomy" promised to us by our masters in Ankara. We have become good obedient servants for our lords. herding their cows and sheep..enough already.
Armenians are our friends, they are beautiful people, we were used against them just because they were Christians, no more I say, let no one seperate us again, anyone trying will have to face justice.
To Aramazd
I'm just now starting to read some more of the comments and will address a specific concern where my name was mentioned. Please do not mistake my intending good for Kurds as being naive. While I do not try to be an authority on Kurds I can tell you this much - growing up as a young boy in Fresno I remember first hand the stories told by the old-timers that were actually there, that the Kurds, along with Turks, committed terrible acts against Armenians. I also remember stories about good Kurds, yes and even good Turks, that helped Armenians and risked their own lives to do so.
So what are we to do about all this? For me I would love to see Armenians again in the lands of our forefathers - in Erzurum, in Mush, in Van, in Kharpert, in Sivas, Cilicia and so forth. The problem is our throats were cut in 1915 and no matter how much I wish for this land back, to even think about confronting the Turkish government on this issue without real man-power is in my view completely naive and very very dangerous. The reality is, a strong case can be made I think, that Armenians and Kurds need each other if we want to achieve our aims. To be sure, we need to tread carefully, fully realizing that are goals are not entirely the same, nor are they mutually exclusive. In my view we Armenians should embrace Kurds like Ferhat, that honor our Armenian culture. Sure be careful (please excuse me Ferhat - just making a point that all people need to tread carefully with delicate issues) but when someone is offering us honest friendship, lets be sure to at least give them a try.
We Kurds and Armenian are sharing long history. We lived side by side for thousand of years before Islamic Arab and Turks arrival. We conquered Armenian territory during the region of Cyaxares first or Uvakhshathra or Kayxesrao (625-585 BC) of Median Empire. The Armenian helped Median Empire in the war against the Assyrian Empire.
The Armenian revolted in the region of Cyaxares second (the weak Emperor of Median Empire).
Cyaxares II, appointed his the son in law (Cyrus the Great king of Anshan) to lead the Median Army in the war against Lydia. Cyrus brought back Armenian into the fold of the Median Empire without fight.
To Kak Ferhat: Cyrus the Great never betrayed the Median Empire. The stories about Cyrus the Great is fabrications by enemies of Kurds and Persian people. There are many people calling themselves Persian whom they are changed the Iranian histories for their own interest.
In mater of fact both Cyrus the Great son ruled Median Empire under the name of Median Empire. Both of them got killed by Darius the Great. Darius the Great butchered Median and Persian and took the crown by force and conspiracy.
The example today “Islamic Republic of Iran” is ruled by Shi’a Sayyied Arab families, they are calling themselves Persian. President of Iran is from different branches of Airyanem Vaejah nations, he is not Persian. Both Sayyied and President are killing Kurds in the name of Persian people, they are killing more Persian than Kurds. We should look for truth.
The 120,000 military personal got killed in Kurdistan according to “Greek Author Xenophon” most likely was during Achaemenid Empire (Darius the Great-he changed the name of Median Empire to Achaemenid Empire not Cyrus the Great, those calling themselves Persian are wrong, they are just trying to make Persian and Kurds enemies of each other for Shi’a Islamic Arab, Western Imperials interest)
Kak Soran Hamarash is right. We Kurds have been making living to sale each other blood since we lost the Median Empire that is why we not have country. The truth should be told. We Kurds want to be friend with Armenian people and others whom got hurt by Turks and Arabs for survival.
We love to have meaningful dialog with Armenian people. We should invite them back to Kurdistan to live with us.
Continue on with Armenian whom they supported Alexander the Great, and Roman Empire. The Sassanid Kurdish Empire (Iranian Empire) tried to liberate our people from Roman Empire but the Armenian supported Roman Empire and they killed millions of Kurds during that time.
We Kurds will survive the Turkish aggressions. We eliminated the Assyrian Empire because of their unjust rule. We are going to defeat Turks because they are practicing unjust against the people in the region.
We are calling on the Armenian people to join our fight. The western countries and Russians are just using you. We Kurds are sincere with our friendship toward your people because we share common enemies (Turks).
The Kurds leadership is not greedy. They are willing to share what we can get back from Turks, join us based on mutual interest and signed document by our leadership. We Kurds love you.
Please do not hate us because of mischief of those Kurds whom sold their own dignity to make money or making living. Those Kurds are doing that against our Kurdish people too.
To Hamma,
I very much enjoyed reading the history of the Kurds/Medes you gave in your most recent post. This connection your raise between the Kurds and Median Empire is fascinating to me. Just to make sure I have it correct, are the Kurds the descendents of the Medes, i.e. the Median Empire? If so, then what was the connection between the Median Empire and the Persian Empire. Also, what about the Parthian empire that followed the Persian empire? One last question - were Kurds part of Urartu?
As an apolitical Armenian citizen with a long history working in Armenia, it is clear that Sarkisian has been doing anything but a "wonderful job."
His petulant incompetence and juvenile judgment are embarrassingly obvious to the majority of Armenian's. Opportunists and foes alike are merrily exploiting Sarkisian's delusional foray into a leadership role. The few deranged Sarkisian sympathizers in the west can doggedly continue defending his demented debut on the international stage at the expense of living in a dreamworld. The world knows well what weak willed Sarkisian sympathizers are ashamed of admitting: He is a 'wonderful' President if in servitude to Turkish masters.
Good day to you all.
Dear Pakrad, Henry is being ironic. He has consistently and vehemently criticized Sarkisian in his previous posts on this website.
Look guys, let us not allow the Turkish state to use our petty differences for its benefit. I will write to you in English but Armenian language: I have learned the Armenian language with no help from no one. Gorgive me if there are any mistakes here. Armenian has become my second mother tongue, and boy I am proud of this beautiful language. My apologies to my compatriot Hamma for opening my heart here for our Armenian brothers:
(Sireli Hay joghovurt. Hima adenne vor menk mer darperutyunnere megti toghnenk, mianank Hay yev Kurd azkeri paregamutyunov. Ayo, Turk bedutyune mezi kordzazets irents aghdod korze eneloo. Shad amotov mnatsink yev gue khntren Hay azkis mez nerel. Inchbes Christos nerets eer tshnaminere, Hayern al bedk e vor neren mez. Menk miasin abradz enk hazaravor dariner, ayo, grivner unetsats enk, zirar mertsutsads enk, pay pnav yerpek Kurdere Hayeroo vochenchatsnel chenk paghtsats, aylabes inchbes grtsats enk abril miasin arants khnteerner unenalu. Turke yerp yegav mer hoghere kravets, sgsav Hay joghovurti charte. Mez kordzadzetsin irents shaheroon hamar. Menk ingank Turkin tagartin meche. Aylevs menk chbedke toghenk Turkere mez zaden eerarme. Menk Hnt-Yevrobagan nuyn joghovurtn enk.
Tartsial, million neroghutyun Hay joghovurten, mer babere meghk kordetsin Hayeroo hanteb yev naev Asdoodso hanteb. Inch garogh enk anel vor haye mez nere. Oorish jampa chunenk, Gam mah, gal al Azadutyun. Yete yes Hay joghovurte chee sirem, inchoos bedk Hayeren sorviles. Guzem tarnal Hay, kani vor gur desnem Hayeroo Kachutyune 60 million Turkin timats. Menk 20 million enk, paits tartsads enk vaghgod vochkharner)
Kurds are descendants of Medes. Later, they were known to the Persians as a fierce and unconquorable people. Xenophon used the name Kardoshians, because according to Xenophon, Armenians called us Kardo( Kurd ) the first time, he said that we lived between Persia and Armenia. Quite possibly we are related to the Persians, at least linguistically.
Dear Armenians, we bow our heads in memory of 2 million butchered innocent and defenseless Armenians. WE TRUELY ARE SORRY. We will never trust the Turk again. Look, we have 2-3 millions Kurds in nothern Iraqi Kurdistan, and we have a semi independant state. But have 20 million in Turkey, and have absolutely Nothing. Not even our language is thought in our schools, no Kurdish TV and Radio. In essence we are to the Turk, uneducated, backward Kurds. We will rise, before we all are Turkified. As Hamma so rightly stated, we have our slave dogs who collaborate with the Genocidal Turkish state, one day, they will find themselves standing infront of the Kurdish people and ask for mercy. Assimilation of Kurds is being carried on on a monumental scale. Most Kurds in Turkey, really and honestly believe that we are Turks. That much is our fear of the Turk, that we go to our deaths(Genocide by assimilation) like innocent lambs.
me mornak vor tuk zavagneren ek katch joghovurti, meg martoo nman vodki ganknetsek, mee toghnek vor sriga Turks sez zade irarme. Yete took chee mianak, aylabes tuk bidi vochnchanak.
Yeghishe Charentin khoskere me mornak, amot tsezi yete moranak ayt millionavor hayeroo charcharank anabadneroon mech. Tuk hima voghch ek, kani vor inenk zohvetsan vobesi Tuk gyank unenak.
"Ov Hay joghovurt, Ku MIAG prgutyune Ku HAVAKAGAN oojin mechn e."
How true, how beautiful. Charents WILL NOT rest, if we are not united.
Mah Gam Azadutyun, yes gue nakhendrem Mah yete chunenank Azadutyun.
Armenian activists seem so obsessed with their version of history that they cannot even see why others would like to respond the Armenian allegations. The Armenians misrepresent to unsuspecting public the Turkish-Armenian conflict as settled history of genocide, whereas the truth is far from being settled, let alone called genocide. When contra-genocide view holders ask for equal time, Armenians come back with a hateful “What is there to respond? There is nothing to debate.”
Everything is open to debate. Only those who are not confident about their facts and figures are terrified by open debate, as they know their falsifications and fabrications will be exposed. Only fanatics will argue that their case has only one side, their side, and only their stories are the truth, the whole truth. We heard it all too many times in other controversies, too: abortion, gun control, immigration, gay rights, Iraq War, Guantanamo, taxes, stimulus package, and many others.
It is up to decent people to stand up to the “opinion thugs” and demand the opening of the field to responsible opposing views so that both sides of any controversy may be heard. After that, let the public come to its own decision. Propaganda and political pressure are not meant to replace scholarship.
If one cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should really use the term “Turkish-Armenian conflict”. Asking one “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” shows anti-Turkish bias. The question should be re-phrased “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?”
Turks believe it was an inter communal warfare mostly fought by Turkish and Armenian irregulars, a civil war which is engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenian revolutionaries, with active support from Russia, England, France, and others, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire, against a backdrop of a raging world war.
Armenians, on the other hand, totally ignoring Armenian agitation, raids, rebellions, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish victims killed by Armenians, unfairly claim that it was a one way genocide.
VERDICT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AMOUNTS TO LYNCHING
Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to also ignore the following:
1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.)
2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a "competent court" after "due process" where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined.
3- For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” at a competent court and after due process. This could never be done by the Armenians whose evidence mostly fall into five major categories: hearsay, mis-representations, exaggerations, forgeries, and “other”.
4- Such a "competent court" was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.)
5- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier "alleged", for scholarly objectivity and truth.
HISTORY IS A MATTER OF SCHOLARSHIP, NOT CONVICTION, CONSENSUS, OR (POLITICAL) CORRECTNESS
History is not a matter of "conviction, consensus, political resolutions, political correctness, or propaganda." History is a matter of research, peer review, thoughtful debate, and honest scholarship. Even historians, by definition, cannot decide on a genocide verdict, which is reserved for a "competent court" with its legal expertise and due process. Ability to explore heretofore unknown or ignored sources and freely debate in civilized discourse is what sets reasoned truth-seekers apart from the ethocidal behavior of bullies and fanaticswho insist there is nothing more to be learned.
To Mr. "FairObserver",
Three questions and related commentary:
- Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society (http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm)? If not, you should join. The mode of endless argumentation under the guise of "fairness" is exactly the propaganda line espoused and implemented by the Turkish government, its lackies, and those (like you, at least seemingly) who chose of their own free will to engage in non-stop and pathetic denialism. Heck, by joining and participating, you might even pick up a trick or two to utilize in your your hate-mongering efforts.
- Do you own a watch and calendar, know how to use them, and understand the underlying concepts of chronology and sequence? I have to ask this because of your lat paragraph's contents and its underlying lack of understanding of cause and effect. Or, to be folksy, "which came first- the chicken or the egg".
- Why do you hide behind a fatuous, and here totally misleading and inappropriate moniker? Why not use your name?
'Fair Observer' is the latest name used by Ergun Kirlikovali.
Readers should know something about Ergun Kirlikovali, the racist poster here, there and everywhere. He also appears under a host of names and handles, but the tired rhetoric is always the same.
1. He wrote a number of posts on the website of the Pasadena Star News commencing October 2008. In one post he compared the deaths of Armenian victims 1915-1923 to a joke he knows about the death of a fly. He has supplemented this imagery with statements that all Armenians are “rats”, “backstabbers”, “disloyal”, “traitors”, “murderers” pretty much the entire Nazi vocabulary which they used starting in the 1920’s to demonize Jews.
He went so far as to say that Armenian Americans are so perpetually disloyal as to be suspected of being unable to serve today in the United States armed forces, again a reprise of the “divided loyalty” slur used on Catholics before JFK and on Jews at all times. These posts so upset a Marine, that he challenged Kirlikovali to box in a refereed match, which of course the overfed Kirlikovali declined to do.
2. Kirlikovali has written that the Assyrian Genocide is something Armenians made up.
3. When confronted with the 2000 conclusion of former Genocide agnostic Ottomanist Professor Donald Quataert that Genocide had indeed occurred, Kirlikovali immediately branded this well-regarded scholar as a ‘Turk hater.”
4. Kirlikovali has widely posted that he has tried to hound Taner Akcam every where he has taught.
5. On January 19, 2007, he wrote an article on Turkish Digest that the probable killer of Hrant Dink was an “anti-Turk”, which is code for an Armenian.
6. Kirlikovali last year threatened to sue anyone who used the term “Armenian Genocide”. I suppose TALDF has reluctantly informed him that Section 301 does not yet operate here.
7. Kirlikovali says that he does not intend to diminish Armeinan suffering, but in reality he does. He has posted that fewer than 4,000 Armenians died at the hands of Turks in the Genocide, and claims that the balance of 48,000 died from malnutrition, and some kind of civil war, in which, one supposes, babies, women and elderly were combatants.
8. Kirlikovali does not limit his racism to Armenians. In a series of exchanges last year on the OC Weekly website, he repeatedly demeaned Mexican American journalist Gustavo Arellano, calling him “Speedy Gonzalez” [the name of a campesino-clad Mexican cartoon rat], and in true idiot style told the native American born Arellano that he should not practice sloppy journalism, and do things as they are done in “Tijuana”.
9. Here’s the shock: Kirlikovali is President Elect of the ATAA, and we can expect more aggression and bombast from this jovial, upfront racist. The question is: where are the moderate voices among the Turkish Americans? Why have they elected a racist buffoon?
When we appear in front of school boards, library boards, or at other government hearings, and are opposed by the Turkish community, I suggest we come armed with copies of his writings, which are all over the net to copy.
10. Finally, for all of Kirlikovali’s “super-Turk” rhetoric, he has lived for decades not in beloved old Turkey, but in Orange County; his wife, according to his various posts, is Irish, about which he seems quite proud, and there is a legtiimate question as to whether his forbears are even Turks- he looks like an overfed, pear-shaped MittelEuropean accountant, replete with porcine features and a bad combover. The misdirected Islamized Greek or Pomak trying to look good to the Gray Wolf crowd, perhaps.
Such is Turks fear of the word G E N O C I D E.
Ferhat jan, yes kezi Hay bid genkem. Ints aynbes gereva teh toun shad ge sires mezi yev serdit meche ges Hay es. Iravounk ounis vor nayev ge sires kou Kurd joghovoutet yev ches ouzer vor aylaserin yev Turk tarnan. Menk djeesht eh vor lav gella yete mer oujere Hay yev Kurd kov kovi tenenk mianalov mer miag teshnameein tem, vorn eh Turke yev nayev Tatare.
Post 174 from the Pasadena Star News and the San Gabriel News on November 17, 2008, in which Mr. Kirlikovali likened the death of 1.5 Million human beings to a joke about a dead fly:
"Armenian claims of genocide remind me of this joke I heard somewhere:
Question: How do you kill a fly?
Answer: Well, you tell the fly a great story and when it is not looking, you jump the fly. Quickly tie its hands and feet and turn it over belly up. Then you start tickling its stomach which causes the fly to laugh violently. Its stomach ruptues of laughters and it dies. Very very effective way to kill a fly, as you can see.
So, the Turks want to kill all the ARmenians and they figure "Hey, if we send only the ones in the East on a journey, give them mule-carts to carry their loads and soldiers to protect them and allow Western help to save them, maybe they will somehow die all together. Here is fail-proof plan!
When will you members of the AFATH [stands for "Armenain Falsifiers and Turk-Haters" in his little world of acronymns] community get real?"
Nazi, exposed. There's much more.
In light of what you said Mr. Astarjian in your report; at least I am glad that you have mentioned the Sevres Treaty; because the Western Armenian lands do belong to Armenia proper. Thank you for that.
Hye, the incompetence of Serge and cohorts is clear as pane of glass. If they can be mislead by a Turkey who slaughtered, raped, kidnapped, terrorized our people and then for nearly 100 years the Turk continue to deny any Genocide of the Armenian nations - these leaders are incompetent. They shall need to be professionally examined to determine their mental capabilities - thinking they shall have the upper hand in any dealings with the deceitful Turk. who changes the rules mid-stream!
If they are not aware that any Turkey' s alliances with other nations do not continue - Turkey is good at breaking 'alliances' Turkey has signed. Yet Serge and cohorts - believe they are capable of dealing with dishonest Turkish leaderships - Turkish style.. Their mentality is certainly questionable.
To this day Turkey, in its convoluted Ottoman mentality still seeks to cause harm to Armenians, wherever, whenever, and of course, the fledgling Armenian nation is probably annoying to Turks -
who might even think to 'eliminate' this too...
Truth be known, it is a Turkey that is a destructive force - still today - against Armenians, wherever, whenever, however, especially in their ongoing PLOYS -
Yet, Turks shall know, the bones of our unburied Martyred watch and wait - for they know the day will come when the Turks (still in Ottoman mode) shall face justice - shall pay reparations, lands and more to the Armenians... Turks have never, in all the centuries, been able to join the civilized societies of the world - even now- bullying it s way into the civilized nations' European Union!
Manooshag
What is the probability of a coup d'etat occurring in Armenia?
What role has Russia played in pushing the protocols onto Armenia? Let us ask and answer the question.
This is a test for Armenian Judiciary Administration. If the Constitutional Court is not an exclusive agent of Mr. Sargisian, then it has at least five different constitutional grounds to reject the protocols. I am hopeful that it will reject totally and unanimously. I don't find any constitutional bases in the Constitution of the Republic of Armenia that allows the Constitutional Court to have subject matter jurisdiction on the issue. To me the issue is a political question and neither the Court nor the National Assembly have any jurisdiction on the issue. What is at issue is just protocols. There is no treaty yet. In short, both the National Assembly and the Constitutional Court have noting to do with the foreign policy of Mr. Sargisian. If Mr. Sargisian really has cared about the opinion of these institutions, he would had done these exercises before signing the protocols not after. There is no procedure that authorizes such process.
It's a shame but the Turks are not alone in this; for the enemy is within. Our government wanted their collaboration for a few pieces of silver and they have and are still trying to sell Armenia with the signing of the protocols. The enemy is not just outside; but it is within.
What Armenia needs is a new administration; one that is for Armenia and Artsakh, as well as for the people of Armenia and Artsakh.
When they also give away Artsakh, then Armenia must rise and fight for their rights. Because if Artsakh goes, so does Armenia. Next the Azeris will want our Sunik and then the rest of Armenia's sovereignty will be something of belonging in history books. We shall not have an Armenia to have under the sun anymore. Armenia must rise and fight against the protocols with all their might. I mean all Armenians in our Republic must rise and revolt against all the injustices that Sarkisian's administration has befell upon our beloved homeland.
So is Charlie going to sing us a song about the merit of giving away Western Armenia? Perhaps he will sing us a song about the so called "benefits" of the protocols? If so, I have a sneaking suspicion sales are going to plummet!
VOCH MEG ZEECHUM TURKEREN.
When the question of the railroad that Russia wanted to go through Armenia into Turkey, Turkey's government said to the Russian's Putin; "you want this roadword plan to materialize? Leave Armenia to me", and Putin as well as Sarkisian and Nalbandyan surely gave away Armenia's keys to the Turks. Russia for their roadwork to materialize for her economical gains and Sarkisian and Nalbandyan they sold Armenia to gain more millions of dollars for their bulging pockets. As sad and as disgraceful all this sounds; it is the true and the horrible picture.
Nairian, thank you for your kind words. Apologies for my broken Armenian.
You have a rich and beautiful language. Learning it was a difficult and arduous process, one which made me ten years older, God it was a difficult language, but once started, I could not quit. The language made me culturally rich. I have asked my two sons and one daughter to learn this beautiful language.
Aramazd, yes shad lav kidem vor tun lav Hay es, paits bedk e vor ku polor oojere tartsnes Turkin tem. Ayo, Aramazd, eem babere shad vad paner erin, yev irents meghke mer vizn e. Paits chi kidem inch enem, mee miag garogh em neroghutyun khntrem polor ashkharki hayerits. Aramazd, Kurder gan voronk tavajanner en, yev gu kordzen Turkeru. Anonts hashive shad vad bidi ella. Tavajane bedk e sbannouvi gentanii nman. Amen Kurd tavajan bidi makrouvi mer hogheren. Gu husam vor srdit mech kdnes Nerel mez. Kurdere shad lav kidem ov e mer tshnamin, ov e mer paregam.
Aha, yes dked Kurd (Turker meze dked anvanem(is this how I write "call us?"), paits yes dked Kurd ellalov sorvetsa hayeri lezun minags arants oknutyun, gartatsi Hay krakedner keerker, gartatsi Hayots Genocide-e, gue hedevim amen Hay lurer, Asbarez, Arm.Now, yevaln yevaln.
Vercheres gartatsi Garabet K Momjiani "Armenian Kurdish relations in the era of Kurdish national movements 1830-1930-" shad lav keerk, amen Hay bedk e garta ays Keerke. Aha Dked Kurd men em, paits Hayots Badmutyune Keedem dzaryr dzayr. Dr. Ardashes Hovsepian-in keerkere gartatsats em polore, yete kides of a suyn doctore. Minchev aysor, gartatsats em 470-e aveli keerker Hayeru masin. Aramazd gue khntrem ellas khohem, khelatsi yev kidagits. Yete yes Kurd ellalov sorveti Hayeren, gartatsi 470 keerk hayer masin, Gue khosim (with an accent), gue keerem Hayeren, don't know how to say the next one here, "How about you?" How many books have you read about your peoples Struggles, History, Literature and Culture? One? 5? 10? 50? NOT ENOUGH....Every single Armenian should master his/her Armenian language FLUENTLY, memorize your history from A to Z, read the rich books your poets and writers left behind, they are Not for decorating the library shelves. Your people has stashed tons of gold and talents for you, but no one is interested in them anymore. I believe it was Saroyan who lamented..." Our books are not read anymore, our prayers not heard anymore..." If we only had that much rich literature and history, I would have read All the books written by my Kurdish writers (I have , mind you).
If an uneducated Kurdish (that's how Turks call us) architect like myself learned your notoriously difficult but beautiful language and know your history from A to Z...how about you?
Hye, we Armenians, together, the world over have enough on our 'plate'.
The Kurds have their own plate and we wish them well seeking freedom from Turkish tyranny.
Armenians still contend with Turkish tyranny - even after a Turkish Genocide of the Armenians!
Armenians, together, worldwide, trust no one but ourselves!
Sadly, even 'ourselves' AND we have a Serge - with cohorts worldwide.
Armenians, together, are worthy of true patriots governing our Haiastan.
Manooshag
jda, let Armenians annihilate out of your 70 million Turks 60 million of them, including all your relatives by beheading them and making several mountains out of it, then take all your young pretty girls at least 20 of them and nail them on crosses then have the vouchers roam around on top of their heads, then throw all the sweet little girls up on the sky and have Armenian soldiers' swords waiting down there to land those poor bodies on the huge swords, then kill all the men in the country and shove them in ditches, then have the women, the children and the old men and women go down the Mesopotamian deserts into the death marches without food, without drinks, coming from all over the land thugs to steal their clothes and any belongings that they have, and ask them a few times after their riches have been stolen already kill them, pretending that the poor souls are lying, then in the interim, rape all the pretty girls and young women and some to take them away for their harems and half dead and half alive the remnants of the ones who went to the death marches to kill them alive and throw them in huge ditches of Shadaadi in Der El Zor desert and put them on fire to kill them that way. And after 95 years, how would you like it if all these were denied and said to you, you are making it up, it never happened.
THAT WHAT YOUR TURKISH GOVERNMENT FROM 1915 through 1923 DID TO THE ARMENIANS RIGHT IN THEIR OWN HOMELAND. MY ANSCESTORS HAD NOT EVEN A GRAVE FOR US TO PRAY AND CRY ON THEM. OUR POOR MARTYRS WHO HAVE BEEN BRUTALLY AND ATROCIOUSLY ANNIHILATED BY YOUR TALAAT, ENVER AND JEMAL PASHAS ORDERS.
"The more seemingly organized and stable diaspora must get involved in the affairs of Armenia proper or the thiefs and thugs will sell us all."
God no.
Harut is spot on.
Armenians living in Turkey and Europe can seek redress from ECHR. Where can Armenians living in North America seek redress for their countless losses suffered during the Genocide?
When will claims be filled on behalf of the RA for the loss of property, real estate, monuments and churches? What are we waiting for in filing our land claim for Wilsonian Armenia? To what body can such a claim be filed with? What have our team of reparation lawyers been waiting for all this time?????
Nairian,
Please read my posts. I was quoting the head of a Turkish American organization Ergun Kirlikovali, not expressing my viewpoint.
Gutless, spineless, shameless, irresponsible and untrustworthy. Shame on the emasculated drones of the constitutional court. It's high time for a coup d'etat.
The caped avenger, Henry Dumanian, strikes again.
So much written yet nothing said.
Armenians never cease to amaze me...
Wow -- this was brilliant.
Having trouble stomaching the views of a "savage African cult worshipping tribesman?"
Hye, with Serge & Company taking from the Armenian people to fill their own pockets - are they also filling the pockets of the Constitutional Court as well? Manooshag
First of all, the article by myself and Allen Yekikian was written for the soon-to-be released Winter 2010 issue of Haytoug, the official publication of the AYF-Western US. Thus, my point of view and where we are coming from should not be a mystery.
With that out of the way, I want to quickly respond to some of the points made by Dumanian.
First, he claims that the critical analysis we give of the Armenian political-economic system in our article "In Whose Interests?" are due to the "protocols, nothing more nothing less"; that there has "Never been such staunch hostility against the oligarchs as there is now"; and that our article is "Quite a detour from [our] past opinions."
However, in the same letter responding to our article, Dumanian states, "Aprahamian, to his credit, is actually one of the few people who has tried to address the issue in the past. Therefore, it is no surprise that this recent article was co-written by him."
For anyone who has followed the pages of Haytoug, you will know that our discussion of these issues is not new and certainly dates before the announcement of the Protocols. In fact, the same issue (Fall 2008) with the Ara Khanjian interview that Dumanian cites has an insert called "A Glimpse of Armenia's Top Tycoons" with profiles of ten leading, super-rich elite in Armenia. This is obviously before the public announcement of the Protocols (August 31, 2009). So Dumanian's claim here is obviously incorrect. [Anyone interested in looking into this point can go to www.haytoug.com and download past issues for free]
Furthermore, as the only socialist party in Armenia, the ARF has long raised the issue of economic justice, defense of the poor, and a fight against corruption in the country. The policies of the ARF faction in Parliament and the pro-poor legislation it has pushed (long before the protocols) speak for themselves. If one is interested in statements about the oligarchic system in Armenia, there are also plenty of them from ARF leaders like Hrant Markarian, Vahan Hovannisian, etc. One needed to only follow Hovannisian's campaign for the Presidency or read the statements of the Kerakouin Marmeen to learn about the program and policies of the ARF in Armenia and their repudiation of the oligarchs. (Documentation of all of this is plentiful but mostly in Armenian, not English. For the sake of space, I'll spare the links and citations).
I should point out that, for us, the issue is not simply the "militant overthrow of individuals" or replacing Sargsyan with Levon Ter-Petrosyan, etc. The issue for us are the institutions in the country, the concentration of wealth and key economic sectors in the hands of the few, monopolies, the lack of rule of law, etc. In other words, our concern is with the need for systematic change in Armenia, not replacing one figurehead leader with a worse individual, who laid the bricks for the current system of autocracy in Armenia in the first place.
And, finally, that brings us to Levon Ter-Petrosyan. Dumanian starts off the article stating that our claim that Ter-Petrosyan has praised Sargsyan's overtures to Turkey and expressed a desire to establish cooperation with the ruling regime is false and that he will refute it. However, he never does so with any evidence.
Again, for those interested in our claim about Ter-Petrosyan's position, I would cite the same article we put in our footnotes: "Armenian Opposition Leader Backs President on Turkey,” RFE/RL, November 12, 2009, http://www.rferl.org/content/Armenian_Opposition_Leader_Backs_President_On_Turkey/1876209.html.
To end, I just want to say that the key issue are not these articles and the back and forth we can have through posting comments. The key issue is changing the condition of our people and moving Armenia forward. For that, it takes work and conscious political struggle. It follows that we must be organized and regularly working with others with similar beliefs to our own on projects and activities that get us closer to our shared aspirations as a people.
-Serouj Aprahamian
Mr. Avetis,
I understand you don't agree with my views, but I think it's inappropriate and offensive to treat me as a member of an extreme fringe group. My views are supported by huge portions of our population in Armenia and the Diaspora, people much smarter, older, younger, and sophisticated than me and you (including the folks at Policy Forum Armenia, a think tank, if you remember from our last discussion). You have continually brushed off almost everything I've said in the same manner you did for this article. I don't know how old you are (considering you don't seem to want to share your last name as I have), but I suspect you are of age, and so it is especially disheartening to see you engage the youth with such a snotty attitude.
If anything has ever been an obstacle for the Armenians, it has been this "Armenians never cease to amaze me…" mind set. I don't know exactly what you are suggesting (perhaps we have always been a stupid people?) but you need to stop pretending as if you are above and beyond the rest of our tribe -- it does absolutely nothing but discourage people from being active and participating.
I understand people say things they don't usually say when they are mad, but this has been a consistent attitude from you. Are you always angry, sir? Throughout our entire discourse, I have been respectful and thoughtful towards you, even after you offered me nonsense arguments in my last article.
Either an apology or honest commentary will do.
Henry jan, I admit, you have a gift of gab, or as Shakespeare put it - full of sound and fury signifying nothing... I think you should pursue a career in sales...
Mr. Aprahamian,
I think it has become a tendency for people that "come from where you're coming from" to misconstrue the arguments and opinions of their opponents, and respond to points that they never made. The point of the article (and I can't understand how I was NOT clear about it) is not that you haven't discussed, noticed, or acknowledged oligarchies as a problem for Armenia. That is why I went on to note a few instances of you doing so (and I might add [again], you are one amongst a few). The point was that in the past decade, the oligarchy had never been such a dire threat to Armenia's well being until the Protocols AND, more importantly, the PRESIDENT WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. And if he was, it was something we were willing to overlook considering everything else. I already made the case above as to why this is true and I don't feel the need to address it again. You responded to a point I did not make.
I also never made the claim that the issue for you was "not replacing one figurehead leader with a worse individual, who laid the bricks for the current system of autocracy in Armenia in the first place." I never suggested you did. (You seem to think that is what I believe, which is also false and completely unrelated to the article -- I don't believe Levon Ter-Petrosyan "invented" this system, the organization of power during his time was a response to very sensitive security issues and [although centralized, and with a big gap between the poor and the rich] it is unlike Kocharian's banditocracy -- which is nothing but THUGS and MAFIOSOS -- who think, talk, and prefer to be considered as such. To treat the two systems as the same is counter productive because it will not help in finding our solution, which is my main reasoning for the differentiation. But again, I don't want to get into this right now, that is not the point of the discussion, we can discuss that some other time).
You're other claim: "And, finally, that brings us to Levon Ter-Petrosyan. Dumanian starts off the article stating that our claim that Ter-Petrosyan has praised Sargsyan’s overtures to Turkey and expressed a desire to establish cooperation with the ruling regime is false and that he will refute it. However, he never does so with any evidence." Unfortunately, this is 100% true. I did not offer any evidence or address it. I intended on making this a two part series, since I realized it would be too long. I will follow up and we can have a discussion on that.
But a brief comment on that, since it is so damaging to the perceptions created in my article. Regardless of whether you agree with him, like him, think he's an evil Jew or whatever, I think we should at least make sure we know WHAT HE IS SAYING. LTP has NEVER endorsed the Protocols. Instead, he has opposed them for DIFFERENT REASONS than the ARF and crew. The editor of Asbarez had an editorial about this the day after Levon gave his speech essentially saying LTP had sided with Sarkisian. Here's a quote from Levon's speech, which you can view by clicking on the text itself:
First and foremost it is easy to see that in contrast to the Congress, which rose in opposition to the Armenian-Turkish protocols from the perspective of real politics, the other forces shifted the problem to the realm of ideology, i.e. the realm of the Armenian Cause, which has no relationship to real politics and the true interests of our country. The Congress expressed two clear objections, one of which had to do with the creation of the historians' commission that would cast doubt on the reality of the genocide, while the other had to do with the condition that the protocols had to be ratified, which opens an opportunity for Turkey to condition the normalization of its relations with Armenia on the resolution of the Karabakh conflict. In contrast to the Congress, the political forces that advocate the Armenian Cause added to the aforementioned objections the questions regarding the unacceptability of fixing the Armenian-Turkish border, the recognition of the Armenian genocide and the Armenian people's historic rights by Turkey, as well as the compensation of the material losses incurred by Western Armenians.
Levon, in fact, was offered to the Protocols during his presidency a few times, but categorically rejected them, even according to Kocharian officials like our beloved former foreign minister. Watch the ending: "he categorically rejected the Protocols."
To suggest that these oligarchs are behind the protocols is an oversimplification of the issue because it begs the question: Oligarchs have always been in charge, why didn't they happen earlier?
Hey Harut:
DREAM ON!!! How much will you dashnak Armenians compensate all of the surviving families of those that the dashnaks committed mass genocide upon (2.5M Moslems and non-Moslems [including the families of non-dashnak Armenians who were slaughtered by Dro and his band of merry men dashnaks, simply because the non-dashnaks refused to murder innocent Turks and Kurds])? And that's just during the WWI era! We haven't even counted the genocide of 1992 in Azerbaijan (e.g. Kohajaly), nor the families of the victims of dashnak Armenian global terrorism during the 70's and 80's!
It's all a moot point anyway. Now that the Armenian court in Yerevan has ruled that the protocols are constitutional, the historical commission will begin. Then the world will see the truth, especially after both dashnak archives in Yerevan and Boston are forced open via protocol directives (assuming of course that dashnaks didn't move everything to another secret location). Then we'll see who will be paying reperations to whom!
Hey Krikor...cry me a river why don't you!!
I was sure that the above idiots were also bought out by the likes of Sarkisian and Nalbandian traitors. These people are all oligarchs and should be thrown out of the country.
Tro, you are right, it is high time for a coup d'etat.
Get out of this place you denialist robert. You denialist turk, we don't need your kind in here to come and say total LIES about Tashangtsoutyun. You lier!!!!! Your thousands of turks that were killed during WWI has nothing to do with our men. Complain to your governments who didn't provide your men of arms with food and clothing. Our people were being killed by your Abdul Hamid II en masse 300,000 of them, then the Armenian G E N O C I D E thanks to your Talaat, Jemal and Enver. Your turkish government annihilated more than 2(two) million Armenians in a most atrocious way and right in our anscestral lands. You land stealers and liers. ENOUGH ALREADY.
Mr. Aprahamian, how right you are!!!!! I have long heard and known for fact that there is a certain radius in the middle of Yerevan that the oligarchs rule and are super rich, while the majority of the people in Armenia are in the poorhouses. I voice your exact thoughts that the major powerful and the rich institutions are in the hands of the administration and their oligarchs. It's no news to everyone. I believe that Mr. Dumanian is making a lot of hor air and that we all know better. The fact of the matter is that Armenia should adopt democracy. The ruling administration should cease ruling the country with an iron fist and start thinking for the people's welfare of Armenia; by creating jobs, seeing that the genius' who graduate from universities are given good jobs and opportunities to rise high above, the banks provide moneys to small and large businesses and encourage them, the market for the farmers are also given opportunities to thrive. Basically I indeed agree with Mr. Aprahamian's comments that both the ARF, the Diasporan Armenians and Armenians in the Motherland want to see the people in Armenia to thrive and not fill in the pockets of a few oligarchs' bulging pockets only. Armenia should be ruled democractically and see to it that it is not like a third world country but strive to have more middle class subjects than the very rich oligarchs and the majority of the people left in the poorhouses.
I don't understand why Armenian Weekly pays homage to this little kemal(robert) islamist terrorist.
Will someone at Armenian Weekly kindly respond to my request?
These Turks take advantage of Armenian hospitality and spew garbage. The unashamedly use Kurds to distance us from the Armenians. Hey little murderer kemal, irrespective of what you write, we Kurds don't trust you, period. We are not the Kurds of 1900-1920s, gone are the days when you used us to do your dirty work. little kemal, welcome to my hometown of Diyarbekir, and we'll stamp the word Genocide on your forhead and your...you know where. You have no honor or shame.
Your muerderous hordes killed 20,000 innocent Armenian women and children in Artsakh...and the victims of Khojali, were non other than Armenian women and children whom you killed and photographed to advance you lowly propaganda purposes. It all is exposed, the truth of your murdering the minority Armenians living in Khojali is all out my friend. There were 300 Armenians in Khojali and all disappeared and then reappeared as dead corpses, butchered by Turkish butchers.
Sorry little kemal, your lies did not do you any good.
I know one thing. Jews and Armenians are wasting time analyzing garbage produced by the Turkish intelligence.
Here in capital letters:
NO ONE KILLED 2 MILLION ARMENIANS BUT THE TURK.
The rest, is all garbage spewed by Turkey to divide Armenians, jurds and Jews to conquer us.
No one is talking about the Armenians who lived and then were murdered in turkish populated city of Khojali, and then were shamelessly photographed as dead turks. One day, they all disappeared. And now the turks accuse the Armenians for killing innocent Armenians of Khojali?
Typical Turkish Genocidal lies. The Armenians victims of Khojali are crying for justice.
Turks killed all the Armenians living in Khojali, and no one is talking on their behalf.
Give me a break..
Nairian, the problem is that the country tried to adopt democracy. Sure, it elected a guy the Diaspora didn't like (for sins real or imagined), but it did ELECT somebody. What did the Diaspora do? Look in the mirror before you plot a whole new course.
If LTP won the election (as many suspect) -- the Diaspora should have thrown weight behind the call for a new election.
If Serge won the election (as the Diaspora originally claimed) then Serge Sarkisian gets to make the decision regarding the Protocols. He is the democratically elected president of Armenia.
It's as if some of you weren't even alive in 2008. Remember, we had an election...there was (is) a popular movement that refused to recognize Serge's legitimacy. And the Diaspora basically told all those people to get a life because we weren't ready to support LTP (and thus, not the people). Now that Serge has done something we don't like -- want him to resign? abdicate? For what? "Protocols?" Wasn't rigging an election a good enough reason to ask for his resignation? Apparently not.
Seriously, who's side are we on? Why do you keep pretending "the people" of Armenia are this mythic entity? They have voiced their opinions loud and clear plenty of times. We have just chosen to not listen. The fact that you're not aware of their voices (voices which run counter to yours, btw) does not mean they don't exist or haven't existed.
Can we say NEW ELECTIONS? The guy that got 20% of the vote has more people out on the STREETS than the guy who won 52%. Nowhere in your grand all loving Diaspora brain did you tell yourself to call up the ANCA, Armenian Assembly, your Archbishops, Prelacy, Diocese, and tell them to SUPPORT THE CALL FOR A NEW ELECTION.
Talk about "supporting democracy!" We seem to have done a horrible job. And now these same people are pretending they've cared all along? And I'm the one shooting "hot air." Ha!
The sad part is most of the Diaspora population remains extremely ignorant about the issues in Armenia, what has taken place, and how the people of Armenia feel. These Diaspora organizations have been able to feed this lie that they represent the interests of the people of Armenia yet simultaneously have opposed them as best they could.
Mr. Dumanian,
I have read your articles published in the Weekly. I would like to first point out that I give the Weekly a lot of credit for allowing antagonizing points of view to be published, even by Levon Ter-Petrossian supporters.
However, Mr. Dumanian you have written this on your facebook page during the AYF protests in NY, September / October of 2009:
"Dashnaks are bad leaders
Share
Yesterday at 12:00am
I hope all the people protesting Serj Sarkissian get beat really hard. And then the next day I hope their free press is shut down and the protestors are presented as a bunch of looters and crack addicts on TV. And then their right to protest completely is taken away. And then I hope they're fired from their jobs and their livelihood is attacked for supporting the wrong candidate."
"I really love the Diaspora and it’s people -- just for being Armenian. And if getting beat to an inch away from death like my friends and family have is going to help you realize how wrong you are -- I really hope they beat you. I really do."
Of course you justified what you wrote by stating the following comment:
"This is an angry version of what I plan on eventually writing. I'll write a real note -- more eloquent, later, when I'm not thinking about those protestors (yes, children and women too) getting beat."
These statements show a lack of social responsibility. For someone who writes eloquent, thought out articles such as the one above, you have to be careful of your statements / reactions in public forums, such as facebook. Also the very thing you are criticizing, people being beaten, etc., is the same thing you wish upon others, a hypocritical statement.
Regardless, the statements you made on facebook, whether angry or not, and having malicious thoughts towards others, makes you lose much credibility with myself and with others I have spoken with. Why would I agree with someone who has publicly stated these opinions? You do have a right to freely express your thoughts, no question, but for you to make those statements shows not only lack of social responsibility, but a one-sided thought process of not allowing others to protest freely and express themselves, the very freedoms which you are trying to defend, another hypocritical statement. I am also a member of the Diaspora, would you like me to be beaten as well?
You may comment that the AYF-YOARF, being the youth organization of the ARF is hypocritical, since the ARF was in coalition with the Armenian government in the beginning, however just as you stated on your facebook page:
“When Levon realized the people were against his ideas (despite how convinced he was) -- he did the RESPONSIBLE thing and RESIGNED in 1998.”
The ARF too did the responsible thing by leaving the coalition, just as you were once an AYF-YOARF member and an AYF-YOARF camp counselor, during Serj's term,you too left the organization because of your reasons, does that make you a hypocrite as well?
You also made another reactionary comment in the blog above regarding your article: “savage African cult worshipping tribesman?” Are you generalizing that all Africans are “savage….cult worshipping tribesman”? It makes me, and possibly others, see a pattern of generalization on your behalf of putting people in groups and stereotyping those groups, as you have above. Or is there symbolism behind that statement that certain groups of Armenians are still “savage” and “cult worshipping” robots of a certain “tribe”?
Mr. Dumanian, you have lost all credibility with myself, and the articles you have written have also lost their value. I am sure that others may feel the same way after reading your “reactionary comments” towards your fellow Armenians. As a "political scientist" you should know better.
A Diasporan who should have been beaten an inch away from his death,
Levon Attarian
The more time xenophobes like "robert" spend in front of the computer parroting baseless turkish propaganda on the Armenian Weekly the less time these turkish chauvinists have to plot assassinations of righteous turkish citizens that speak the truth about the Armenian Genocide.
The writing of these turkish fanatics on this website has proved quite useful as evidence for politicians in my riding association of the extreme hatred, misinformation and bigotry that is still spewed by turkish extremists that seek to intimidate and silence Armenians into submission. The shameless cold blooded assassination of Hrant Dink is a testament to this fact.
Keep up the great work Harut. We all appreciate your columns.
Hey Vache, hearing Aznavour flaunt and rave about the protocols after the signing pissed me off too! He then had the nerve of talking about getting back Western Armenia the week later. Did you catch that snippet? I was mortified and couldn't believe how ignorant he was about what the protocols actually said. I understand he has a diplomatic post and must tow the party line but hell so did our very own John Evans but even he had enough sense to break free from the status quo and do the right thing under similar diplomatic pressures to stick to the party line. It was a different issue but more or less the same pressure exerted to conform.
Well, lets see what Khatchig comes up with in his interview...
To Avedis:
"So much written yet nothing said"
Is this not the case of everything Captain Obvious has ever said?
" full of sound and fury signifying nothing…"
Henrik is just vindictively anti ARF. At least he controlled his usual mean streak toward fellow Armenians.
The protocols lifted the veil of the gist of the problem with Armenia. The Oligarchs.
Who in the world would want to mess with the oligarchs prior to the protocols?
And even now it is still "problematic" to confront them. They have the money and the police power.
No one can stop the oligarchs and their march to indirectly turkify whats left of Armenia.
Somewhere in turkey right now an Armenian oligarch is lifting his shot glass and toasting turkish- Armenian friendship with a turk.
Neither Captain Obvious Henrik, nor the ARF have the skills set to end the treachory that has enveloped Armenia and the Armenian people.
To save Armenia one would have to get rid of the oligarchs and their henchmen.
Armenian GDP would double over night and all economic, social and human development indices would shoot up through the roof.
Unless we can get rid of the oligarchs, Armenia is a lost cause.
The oligarchs sealed Armenia's economic fate. The protocols seal Armenia's political fate.
As for road maps, The ARF has one that I think has a chance. Dumanian has a GPS that is programmed to and from his own location.
This just proved that the courts are also on the take. A coup would be interesting and it would really shake things up over there. God knows they need it. What a bunch of disgraceful defeatists!
No matter what. Those articles about Amelikites that are being quoted from the Encyclopedia Judaica and The International Jewish Encyclopedy must be edited out. We want that nonsense out of those publications. We need to contact the editors of the two encyclopedias.
I am glad I flushed the fox out of the foxhole, and put some folks on the defensive. I am impressed by Ferhat's command of the Armenian language; he must be one of those "one parent" Armenians. Barigalust, "akhbar." Although I don't know why has he spent all that time learning the language of a tiny nation whose 470 books he says he has read. I wonder why. 470? Why not 475? Let's round it to 500 and call it half a thousand. Yes, I have read a few; you see, I am 83, but I haven't read a single book written by a Kurd. I will, when they write one. Let's see now, if a 60 year old person has read 470 books (among others) and if we can figure out how many beans make five, then an 83 year old will have read at least 650 books ... sounds reasonable. Keep it up, Ferhat, you are doing ok. Duel? No, I am civilized. Incidentally, you misquoted Saroyan. Go find out how. Lesson number 471: "How about you?” is "Isk dook?" One more minor point, from a lawyer to architect-Ferhat. Contrary to your observation, the Armenian church architecture is based on curves, not on straight lines. The intertwined arch (like in McDonald's) starting from ground up, has been used exclusively(and still is) in Armenian church architecture right from the construction of the very first church. That is why they still stand, whatever of them that have escaped looting for their stones.
And my admiration for Manooshag. I am proud of you. Let all of us read her words, loudly, a few times every day.
Ferhat: 402 lines.
Um, who do you think is supposed to realize a coup d'etat and how exactly should it be done? It would be very interesting to hear opinions about that.
Hye, is this another Turkish Ploy? Manooshag
Hye Serouj, the word duman is either Armenian or Turkish and means, in effect, an evil forboding,
a horror to happen... such as a Genocide. Manooshag
I too wonder why the Armenian churches in California let him in to talk. They should be inviting better speakers to educate people, not spread conspiracy theories. I think he is similar to the Lyndon LaRouchies, who believe in the Jewish conspiracy theory, and went around recently carrying placards with Obama wearing a Hitler mustache and breaking up town hall meetings. Barnie Frank said talking to them was no better than talking to his dining room table. Their beliefs are paranoid. They attribute much too power to the Jewish people who have been mostly powerless throughout history. I compare them to brown shirts (fascism). The only danger to me is if too many people take them seriously and they get elected to a public office, even if historians don't take them seriously; and it can be hurtful to people who believe them.
I think in many totalitarian countries, conspiracy theory may be common because there is a lack of information, and people fill in the gaps. Then again, we may feel sorry for pathetic people, who are not getting the truth from Turkey and closure on the genocide issue and fall for these theories.
I found these articles by Jack Manuelian quite by accident. I had some free time and spent a year donating to World Vision in Armenia and was reading the newsletters from Armenia on the internet. When I found this article about the coming WWIII with Iran and the world Jewish conspiracy theory I did try to figure it out. It really seems there are many conspiracy theories around and who knows how many people believe them, unfortunately; many are on the internet. I think it is good to analyze them and inform people, so they become better educated, otherwise they could spend a lot of time on the internet reading these articles and not getting educated, but falling for voodoo history.
It also brings one to the realization that having no closure from Turkey about the Armenian genocide is quite harmful to everyone, and like I said before, it is very abusive to people who believe the lies and don't get the truth.
I am reading a lot of books on the Armenian genocide (crimes against humanity), some written by friends of ours that lived in Turkey at the time of the massacres. It has been very interesting reading these books, which were written in 1930's - 1940's.
I found the posts by the Kurds very interesting. Please let us know about any of your books; will they be published in English and where can we buy them. I have been relying on the internet and the Bible, believe it or not, to figure out our ancient history and I am putting it together piece by piece; although I am sure you all know a lot, I did not know too much and am learning more. The Jews in Isaiah, do praise Cyrus the Great. Yes, it is better to die in freedom than in slavery; AND to die with a good reputation that lives long after you, and not in shame. Is that the warrior ethos?
One thing is true, Kemal Ataturk was a bisexual pedophile whose family had converted to Islam. Another thing that was true. was that Talat Pasha wanted to marry a Jewish girl. My grandmother and grandfather, both of them orphaned, can tell you other stories of Jewish snitches. Like everything else, there some truth in things. However, we should broach the subject and explore the topics without fear of being called an anti-semite.
If Talat Pasha was a closet Jew, then it should be brought to the open. If Kemal Ataturk was a closet bisexual pedophile, that should also brought to the open. If Hitler's grandmother was a Jew, making him Jewish, according to Jewish law, that should also be brought to the open without burning her house down.
In my opinion you cannot blame the Jews for the Armenian genocide, regardless that Talaat or Attaturk are partly Jewish however, ask yourselves why would many influential Jewish organization today participate activly in Armenian genocide denial? Since denial is the last phase of any genocide then aren't some Jewish organization somehow contributing to the Armenian genocide? What is in it for them? My guess is that many ruling elite in Turkey today are Jewish, ie in banking and the military and recognition of the Armenian genocide might disrupt their ruling power. At first I never understood why Abe Foxman, the head of the ADL, who actively participates in Armenian genocide denial or it's recognition and or condemnation, always sights the dire consequences of the Jews in Turkey if the truth be told. It now makes sense.
The Armenian Weekly is fastly becoming the the #1 Armenian english language newspaper in America. I think this shows that people are looking for a discussion and are tired of the status quo.
Mr. Attarian,
You're quite right, that FACEBOOK note was out of line. I wrote that after people on somebody else's facebook page began blaming the protesters last February for the Protocols (because they apparently weakened Serge). It was on the facebook page of a "Dashnag leader," who, instead of scolding him, instead egged him on.
I have had family members beaten and hurt at March 1 (amongst other things)-- the general attitude of most Dashnaks towards what happened between March 1 and last September (and I'm not just talking about regular folk like Manooshag) was one of...almost delight. Finally, this was a way to get back at Levon! It was/is quite disgusting. I could say many things that were said to me in private that could embarrass some very important people in our community (political folk and religious folk), but I don't think that would be a healthy course. I do regret that facebook posting.
I am sorry if that facebook note (not meant to be seen beyond the few people on facebook, btw, thank you for reprinting it) offended you. You are right, it was out of line and I wrote it in a very angry state of mind. My apologies. I only meant that maybe, finally, if all these people felt the brunt of Serge the way the people of Armenia had, they would finally wake up. (Sadly, none of that has happened). I am also wondering why you saved that note -- especially since...well...we don't know each other? I deleted it once a friend told me it was inappropriate.
Again, my apologies -- I wrote it in a burst of anger and it stemmed from a personal connection to March 1, and not from a desire to see Diaspora Armenians get beaten.
As far as me supporting him -- my support for LTP has gradually evolved. I was extremely skeptical when he announced his candidacy. The only thing that honestly convinced me he should get our support was the response everybody else had towards him (he's a jew, he's an axpar, he wants to give Kharabagh back, he's a traitor, his dad is Turkish). I think by fighting against these sentiments (which were prevalent in "leadership" circles), I accidentally fell into his supporter camp. (Good thing, too!).
Mr Attarian, I hope I can regain your trust.
I think it is good that these views are represented (views that I have discovered a huge chunk of the population in Armenia share).
And Manooshag -- I never knew that about my last name. I find it difficult to believe somebody would name themselves after something like that, though!
Only when she decides to re-send an invitation letter to ALL major Armenian organization leaders for a civil sit down discussion should any of the invited parties accept the invitation. This would clearly counter her repeated attempts to divide and conquer Armenians.
But I'm sure the AAA and their ilk would love every moment of sticking this to the rest of us by attending regardless. Don't kid yourself, this is their shinning moment and they wouldn't miss it even for live feed of Turkey's televised recognition of the genocide...
I hope they prove me wrong.
"Neither Captain Obvious Henrik, nor the ARF have the skills set to end the treachory that has enveloped Armenia and the Armenian people."
I highly doubt a political party who nobody in Armenia trusts, and whose candidate in the 2008 elections (going up against the likes of Levon and Serge) received less than 6% of the vote, are the guys to do it. Vahan Hovhanissian is even related to Serge. Purely from a political point, if the ARF was serious, it would elect a new leadership, people who don't bring up memories of Robert Kocharian, people who aren't relatives of Serge Sarkisian, and people who don't remind us of this.
You would think a POLITICAL party would consider these things. It's as if the Republicans elected Cheney to run against Obama last year.
I might offer one reason the Jewish organizations don't recognize the genocide. The reason being that Turkey threatened to harm the 25,000 Jews and 65,000 Armenians in Turkey with being harmed. You can see that they are capable of that, Hrant Dink, being an example. But I know you racist, prejudiced people and even the killers, tried to blame the Jews for that.
One thing though, many of you really don't care what happens to the 25,000 Jews and 65,000 Armenians, plus illegal Armenians in Turkey, at all. You don't care if they get harmed or if they are forced out of Turkey. I really think that is the main reason many people are being careful with Turkey.
It may be that the genocide recognition will force the last of the Armenians out of Turkey. Maybe that is what you want; maybe that is not what the Turks want, ultranationalism. After all, Turkey for the Turks was one way Ataturk tried to solve the Balkanization problem. I would say Balkanization is what happened in Turkey. Close neighbors and relatives fought there for years and even killed each other. I think Ataturk, being from the Balkans tried to solve that by the population transfer and "peace at home, peace in the world." However, Turkey still has problems. I think also it would be great for someone to bring tolerance to people to solve the Balkanization problem. Some of your posts, so full of deep seated hatred and prejudice, typical of what goes on in the Balkans. It is wrong to kill muslims as it is wrong for them to kill you.
However, I do believe some of you even joined the Nazi Party. Well, that is another issue. They were criminals. That is why it is called crimes against humanity. And I also know, many Armenians fought the Nazis and were valiant.
Kaizer, I guess, you are a hopeless case.
I think the main point of the article is missed:
"Bulgarian officials immediately backed down realizing that an open confrontation with Turkey on this issue may not be as beneficial to them as quiet, behind closed doors negotiations. Bulgaria’s Deputy Foreign Minister Marin Raykov sought to downplay Dimitrov’s demands by stating that his country did not make Turkey’s EU bid conditional on the resolution of the compensation issue for displaced persons. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Borissov rebuked Dimitrov, threatening to fire him should he make a similar statement in the future without first consulting him.
Minister Dimitrov quickly apologized in order to retain his job. Press official Veselin Ninov, however, was not as fortunate. He was fired for endorsing Dimitrov’s earlier statement."
They had to lick it all back. Someone reminded them that during Russian, Balkan and WWI wars, and then again in 80s, millions of Turks and Pomaks have been ethncially cleansed from Bulgaria, and they would end up on the wrong side of the math in the end!
I really hope the reperations issue is raised seriously, so I can make claims for all the ancestoral lands, bussinesses and lives lost in Bitlis to Armenian hords. Then I would knock on Greece's door for the other half of the family.
Of course, since Armenians are bent on assigning responsibility for 100 year old Ottoman war time policies to the Turkish republic, then I guess Turkey would also seek dameges from the Armenians. After all the map of Middle East would have looked a little different today if it were not the Armenian fifth column. How does one put a value on this?
Here is the fun part, since Ottoman government had allocated equivalent lands to the relocated Armenians in then other Ottoman vilayets of Lebanon and Syria, they would have to get involved in this argument too at some point! All this could be so interesting and fun!
Hye, the overwhelming majority of American citizens of Armenian heritage are being discriminated against by our State Department. Deliberate exclusions, based on painfully transparent and cynical calculations, not only insults these Armenians (and their generations of collective service to America), but also, very sadly, diminishes the integrity of our government as an honest-broker and the central civil and democratic institution of our society. Manooshag
The Armenian Assembly has basically been able to exist without enjoying the support and sympathies of the vast majority of the Armenian American community. I don't know why this is so -- but I have seldom met people (even people in the Diocese) who genuinely support the policies and positions of the AAA (beyond genocide recognition of course).
I think the ANCA and the like should not call on Clinton to let all these organizations in, instead, they should ask the Armenian Assembly to not attend unless they do.
It seems 'murat' missed the main point of the article and is keen on portraying revisionist history. Its a pathetic attempt really but hey like Paul mentioned above its better that people like him invest more time in front of their computers preoccupied with the Armenian Weekly rather than time spent plotting to murder truth tellers of the Armenian genocide from their turkish fatwa list.
The only "argument" propagandists like 'robert' and the Turkish state need to deliberate over is how Turkey, the successor state of the ottoman empire who inherited its assets AND liabilities, will compensate the various different ethnic groups including the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians for the premeditated genocide their radical group of ottoman terrorists lead during the crumble of their supposed empire.
The main point of the article is as the writer made clear from its title: Armenians and Bulgarians are entitled to demand long overdue compensation from an unrepentant Turkey. I think what many Armenians and moderate and open minded Turks would really find even more "interesting and fun" is if Turkey would actually play a more honest and constructive role in promoting Turkish-Armenian reconciliation based on truth and justice by returning our illegally occupied lands and compensating Armenians for their losses without dithering in lies and lobbyists . Now this would be "fun", constructive and actually meaningful.
I refute the false claims of Dr. Steven Leonard Jacobs with the facts in my article:
Denial Is the Eighth Stage of Genocide: Dr. Steven Leonard Jacobs' Fatally Flawed Apology for the Jewish Genocide of Armenian Christians
http://jewishracism.blogspot.com/2010/01/denial-is-eighth-stage-of-genocide-dr.html
Let us see if Jacobs and The Armenian Weekly retract the many falsehoods they have published.
Christopher Jon Bjerknes
As a fellow Canadian of Armenian decent your intellect, judgment and shrewdness Baron Papian are commendable and reassuring.
Your demonstrated leadership is much appreciated as the battle for our people's rights continues.
Please do write again.
A curious tidbit in this regard is that the donme 'mosques' in Turkey are virtually indistinguishable from honest to goodness European synagogues...inside and out, even though they were, for the most part, not accepted as part of the larger Jewish community. From what I know, it is not correct to blend the two, since a donme is technically not Jewish and not counted as part of the fairly small Jewish community in Turkey. In fact, they are practically invisible, by design.
Perhaps it is time for Armenia to demand that the Bank of England release the confiscated Ottoman Armenian gold that it has been holding since it was placed there by the Turkish govt towards the end of WWI, which was valued at roughly 5 million British pounds at that time. Now, before anyone insists that this is a fiction, let me tell you that iron-clad, verifiable documentation exists on this and these funds should be restored to the Armenian people, via Armenia, as soon as possible.
If we don't use our minds before our passionate hearts and Unite
No one will help us to unite
Oxford dictionary defines the Armenians
As a single minded and that is true.
We are single minded
This is our genes
How can we change and rule?
Let us unite and not praise in vain.
Mr. Aramazd, you seem to be a nice man at the age 83. Why be so arrogant on behalf of Ferhat by rejecting the man's love for your country's language, culture and history.
To Mr. Dumanian.
It is sad to read the comments that you have posted on your Face Book page attacking Armenian youth. No matter if we agree or disagree with their perspectives, one should not harbor thoughts and intents that are full of hatered toward fellow human being.
I visit this Website often and I enjoy reading comments posted by individuals with whom I might not agree, but still I consider it educational and helps broaden my perspectives in terms of current Armenian affairs. It is obvious that you have issues with ARF, with all respect I suggest to you to take it to ARF and keep it there, nobody enjoys reading comments full of poison.
Sincerely.
Daron
I have a friend in Armenia and I would like to adopt his child. He is having a very difficult time caring for him and if my wife and I can adopt him indipendently without an adoption agency it would be perfect. We can give him a wonderful life here in the US. Eventually my friend and his wife will come to the US one day when their visa clears so they can be in the child's life. He trusts me like a brother. If ANYONE knows how the process works or where I can look to begin his process PLEASE contact me. We are in desparate need of information. My email is alexh_818 AT Yahoo. COM
Hye, Robert the turk, is the prime example of the what the Turkish leaders have done, even to their own Turkish citizens. As these leaders have pursued a policy of denials of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation, so too, these dishonest turkish leaders have lied and mistreated their own turkish citizenry.
First lie Robert, the Armenians were unarmed, and made to march todeserts until they died of hunger, thirst, terrorism - slaughtered, raped, kidnapped and more an unarmed Christian citizens of Turkey. Your turkey suffered loses in WWI - your leaders use these
loses to Armenians - blaming the victims of a Genocide for everything your leaders failed.
Second lie Robert, you will not like this but it is the truth. Your own turkish leaderships, all these
years have educated you, and all your turkish citizens in turkey dishonestly. Robert, your leaders
have lied, ye, even made denials to your own people - your students are educated without learning the truths of their turkish history. Your history books donot tell the truths of the years when the
turkish leaderships, Ottoman and then the current leaderships all these years, hid their vile
actions... Humans inhumanity to humans, in the most debased forms. Of course, they'd try to lie and hide such a history... Sadly, you a re a product, with so many others, of these denials by your leaders
So, even though there are many in turkey who have come to realize the guilt of the Otttoman turks and the subsequent turkish leaderships - others, such as yourself, sadly, have been programmed to
believe the lies of all your leaderships. Genocide, the slaughters, rapes, kidnapping, all happened.
And, sadly, because a turkey was not brought to face justice and even show repentence, we Armenians will seek justice - and reparations all due and owing to a nation all that was 'stolen' via the
Genocide. See it was not a war with the Armenians - it was what turkey does best - Genocides.
Further, because a Turkey was not brought to face their absolute guilt - all Genocides
that have occurred since, all the millions of innocents who have been slaughtered - and millions who survive the terrorism of Genocides with their own horrid memories - Genocides still exist..
1890s-2010 for the Armenian peoples, yes the Genocide is not forgotten - as we have a Covenant with those slaughtered, violated, debased, with those who survived and carried this Covenant to their children, their grandchildren and now their great grandchildren - Genocide still continues
into 2010 - until the Turk recognizes their lies - are lies. Manooshag
Fair Observer denialist vermin, I tell you, if the Nazis who annihilated 6 million Jews were instead the Turks; Jews until today would have been denied, no reparations made to them and had to hear your denialist spew right in their papers. You have thus mastered the denialist Turkish government's regime into perfection.
Mr. Daron,
I addressed the issue above, accordingly with an apology. But if I may reiterate: I wrote that facebook note, not intended to be seen by a small group of people, in a burst of anger -- having had personal connections to the comments that incited my note in the first place. I also wrote it with a specific group of people in mind (hence the name) who had been quite insensitive to me in the past.
The comment: "This is an angry version of what I plan on eventually writing. I’ll write a real note — more eloquent, later, when I’m not thinking about those protestors (yes, children and women too) getting beat."
Was meant to say I will write an eloquent version of the article when I stop thinking about the protesters in Armenia who were beaten (friends and family). I intended on deleting the note shortly after, but kept it because a conversation followed in its comments. I did eventually delete it. I don't know why people I don't know (and did not have access to my facebook) kept the random note -- this was before I had written anything anywhere.
And on that note -- the incestuous comments by the ARF youth particularly (you're a traitor, Turk, Levon supporters should be shot and killed, deported, etc) during the elections, but also in general, should be deplored by ARF leaders. You should all be aware of how big of a problem it has becoming. (As well as the comments of the leadership rank).
I think all of us are entitled to mistakes at times of heated discussion about things we are clearly passionate about, especially in our youth.
To: Henry Dumanian, why are we here in the Diaspora in the first place? Because our anscestors were annihilated by the Turks and that is why we are in here. Yet a good many of us support Armenia in any and every way we can. I do oppose and abhore the protocols like it is written by blood. For your information I have always opposed the lack of democracy in Armenia, the dishonesty, the corruption that has been apparent since the fall of the communist regime. Unfortunately it is still continuing and it has done and continues to do harm to the majority of the people in our Motherland. I oppose Levon Der Bedrossian's ruling and I also oppose Serge Sarkisian's presidency. They seem to be both alike as all of us are observing now when LTP is very happy that Serge has practically gave away our rights of the Western Armenian lands in view of reparations from Turkey by accepting their illegal kars Treaty which is written in the disgraceful Protocols. Armenia on three accounts fully gave in to the Turks' pre-conditions in the Protocols. The Protocols are not in favour of Armenia and Artsakh but only to the Turks. What are we gaining from it? Nothing, Nata, Zilch. I oppose anyone and everyone that acts against Armenia's cause for her survival, and for her sovereignty. LTP and Sarkisian alike.
Sarkisian and Nalbandian have an aura of oligarchs that they support and it is disgraceful. It is undemocratic and it is in the latest news that from 1 to 7 rating, 1 having complete freedom and 7 no freedom; Armenia politically and economically is number 6. Meaning, the people have not much say or do both economically and politically. Armenia's president and the few oligarchs are totally controlling the country with an iron fist and it is disgraceful, when the 90% of the people are in the poorhouses yet the oligarchs roam around Yerevan with the best European cars, owning huge houses and not have a care for the vast majority of the people. Armenia's president should strive to think of the people of Armenia and not just his own bulging pockets. Sarkisian and his administration must make Democracy reign in Armenia and think of the people and how they can create jobs and security for the people of Armenia. Because there was Democracy in the US, this country despite of the various nationalities and the various religions among the people, it has lasted as long as they did. As for your lingo and your anger towards any one of us that oppose your point of view, I could do without.
All this Israel/Jew love fest I see is quite disturbing for me as an Armenian. What’s with all the lofty talk by and about these Zionists and their subservient lackeys in our communities? Let’s remember that Israeli Jews are to regional Arabs what Turks are to Armenians, utterly corrupt and violent governments. And before we go on to bashing ethnic Germans let’s also remember that during the First World War Jews in German were what they are in America today, they were basically running the show... No wonder Nazis rose to power... Besides having a clear hand in the Turk’s genocidal campaign against Armenians during the early part of the 20th century, organized Jewry is the greatest obstacle against our Hai Dat in the early part of the 21st century… Yet the average Armen today is too ignorant to see this.
Were Jews, as a people, responsible for the Armenian genocide? The short answer is, no. There have been many honest and decent Jews throughout history and many that have suppported us Armenians during our worst times. However, the political variant of Judaism (organized Jewry or Zionism) was definitely involved in the genocidal campaign against Armenians of the Ottoman Empire. Even according to Ralph Schoenman (offspring of holocaust survivors and an ardent anti-Zionist activist) the founding fathers of Israel, Hertzel and Jabotinsky, openly supported the genocide of Armenians in the Ottoman empire with the hopes of gaining political favors in Palestine, then under Ottoman jurisdiction. Again, let’s realize that Jews were in Germany then what they are in the United States today. Let’s also remember that Jews were prominently represented within the Young Turk movement (much like the Jewish representation in the warmongering “neo-conservative” movement here in the US).. Nevertheless, even on a societal level there are many documented cases of Jews working with Turks to persecute Armenians and Greeks – the two main Christian competitors to Jews within the Ottoman economy. In short, while the average Shlomo may have been innocent, organized Jewry was clearly an integral part of the genocide that befell Armenians. Even today we see remnants of the anti-Armenian sentiments of organized Jewry. After Turks and Kurds, Jews are perhaps the only other nationality that needs to face up to their crimes against the Armenian nation.
And none of this takes away any responsibility from Turks. In my opinion, Turks, Kurds, Jews and Western Europe (in this particular order) were primarily responsible for the Armenian Genocide. And as long as we continue kissing Jewish asses the Hai Dat will go no where. I suggest you naive people wake up and realize that organized Jewry is no friend of the Armenian people.
To Ferhat,
As a second generation Armenian American that has tried, and intends to keep trying, to master the Armenian language, I commend you for not only learning the language but for your signficant effort at becoming an expert on Armenian culture. Some may claim to be good Armenians because of such and such a relative, i.e. the pure Armenain blood which from a genetic point of view is nearly pure nonsense. In my view though, you Ferhat, because of your diligent efforts, are a good Armenian and I believe many a good Armenian would concur with me.
It seems Henry's chasm of disgruntlement originates not from the justified resentment by the majority of Armenians against sarkisian, ltp, corruption, the protocols and cronyism in Armenia today but from the absence of this same public outcry in March and before the protocols when corruption, cronyism and unilateral rule were equally apparent.
He is singling out why Armenians in general are upset now after the protocols but "soos pus" before the protocols. Corruption, cronyism and autocracy did not spring up over night right? Sarkisian and his bandits were working behind the scenes for a long time to make it happen and if any system of transparency and a stronger democratic process was in place before this protocol was in the open it may never have existed.
I think what he's getting at is who is to be held accountable for not directly addressing cronyism, corruption and autocracy in Armenia that ultimately gave those in power a carte blanche to work against the will of the people and create these demeaning protocols amongst other things...
In response to "Genocide denail" the idea that Turks will harm the Jews in Turkey if the Armenian Genocide is recognized in America makes no sense. Israel and Turkey have very close political, economical and military relationships. In fact in response to the Israeli military shelling of the Palestinian civilian population, who are fellow Muslims, the Turks didn't harm a single Jew yet somehow they are in danger if the Armenian Genocide was to be recognized? The reality is that the Turks understand the Jews in America govern foreign policy and therefore must protect the ruling Jewish elite that not only influenced the Armenian Genocide, though the Turks were the main implementers, but that still influences great segments of Turkish society today IE: Banking and the Military. There is a struggle in Turkey today between the Turkish Muslims and the so called deep state. That is why the Jews immorally help deny the Armenian genocide: to protect their own interests.
To my fellow Kurds and Armenian friends
We should look at the facts and avoid harsh statements. We Kurds with all our short coming and stateless but we survived to this modern day and multiplied compared to our friends Armenians, Assyrian, Jewish, Chaldean and other nations in the regions. It is to my surprise that our forefather has been smarter than us Kurds today.
We Kurds people like me and Kak Ferhat trying to be friend with people who got hurt by the Turks and Arabs in the region. We do not mean any harm to the Armenian nation.
Logically we are speaking we Kurds and Armenian need each other. Let start from that point on to go forward. Quoting from the book of others, the 83 year old gentlemen are very hard to convince. Let him liberate the Armenian nation alone. Remind me few years ago, there was good Armenian Prime Minister trying to be friend to the USA the only super power, he got killed by the Armenian who want Armenia to be loyal to Russian.
The Armenian helped Roman Empire and fought the Sassanid Empire for over three hundred years. They fought Ottoman Empire for English Empire and France Empire. The Armenian lost 1.5 for that, but English and France are friend to the Turks to make few dollars.
Please Mr. Aramazd when that stubbornness are going stop. The Armenian people and Kurdish people are suffering. The Turks are getting help from Jewish lobbyist to destroy our nations. We Kurds are bribing Jewish power, giving them what we have to stop them for what they are doing to make money. We believe that our nation Kurds do have common cause with Armenian nation. We are bending over to get help and establish friendship with Armenian nation; we are supporting justice for Armenian. We are going to unit with our Iranian nations too just to stop the Turks aggressions.
The historical opportunities are up now for the Armenian to make the difference. We Kurds and Armenian should join other nations whom got hurt by Turks to get united. We have to put presser on the Jewish lobbyist to stop their damaging work. We have to convince them that their alliance with us will bring them more money in the long range than their work with Turks.
We have to be realistic that Jewish lobbyist in America they have influence. They are not going to let the USA pass even the resolutions. Recently I saw two Jewish lobbyists by name of mikes were fighting each other because one was working for Turkey and other for Kurds.
I hope these explanations will change your mind Mr. Aramazd.
I wish all of you good success what ever you want to accomplish for yourself and your nations. I hope to accomplish free and democratic system for my nations first from my own people Kurds, then from the People like Turks and Arabs whom they are abusing us for no reasons except greedy and selfishness.
Please use this
To my fellow Kurds and Armenian friends
We should look at the facts and avoid harsh statements. We Kurds with all our short coming and stateless but we survived to this modern day and multiplied compared to our friends Armenians, Assyrian, Jewish, Chaldean and other nations in the regions. It is to my surprise that our forefather has been smarter than us Kurds today.
We Kurds people like me and Kak Ferhat trying to be friend with people who got hurt by the Turks and Arabs in the region. We do not mean any harm to the Armenian nation.
Logically we are speaking we Kurds and Armenian need each other. Let start from that point on to go forward. Quoting from the book of others, the 83 year old gentlemen are very hard to convince. Let him liberate the Armenian nation alone. Remind me few years ago, there was good Armenian Prime Minister trying to be friend to the USA the only super power, he got killed by the Armenian who want Armenia to be loyal to Russian.
The Armenian helped Roman Empire and fought the Sassanid Empire for over three hundred years. They fought Ottoman Empire for English Empire and France Empire. The Armenian lost 1.5 million people for that, but English and France are friend to the Turks to make few dollars.
Please Mr. Aramazd when that stubbornness are going stop. The Armenian people and Kurdish people are suffering. The Turks are getting help from Jewish lobbyist to destroy our nations. We Kurds are bribing Jewish power, giving them what we have to stop them for what they are doing to make money. We believe that our nation Kurds do have common cause with Armenian nation. We are bending over to get help and establish friendship with Armenian nation; we are supporting justice for Armenian. We are going to unit with our Iranian nations too just to stop the Turks aggressions.
The historical opportunities are up now for the Armenian to make the difference. We Kurds and Armenian should join other nations whom got hurt by Turks to get united. We have to put presser on the Jewish lobbyist to stop their damaging work. We have to convince them that their alliance with us will bring them more money in the long range than their work with Turks.
We have to be realistic that Jewish lobbyist in America they have influence. They are not going to let the USA pass even the resolutions. Recently I saw two Jewish lobbyists by name of mikes were fighting each other because one was working for Turkey and other for Kurds.
I hope these explanations will change your mind Mr. Aramazd.
I wish all of you good success what ever you want to accomplish for yourself and your nations. I hope to accomplish free and democratic system for my nations first from my own people Kurds, then from the People like Turks and Arabs whom they are abusing us for no reasons except greedy and selfishness.
To Aramazd,
The sparkle of your wit is certainly more valuable than those 470 (475?) books. You really made me laugh. Many happy returns! (I'll be 72 in a few days.)
To Hamma,
Please know that there are many Armenians that would concur with you and we are very encouraged that Kurds like yourself and Ferhat want to work together with Armenians for mutually advantageous causes. Now I don't mean anything personal here about this Armenian or that Armenian but one thing I will say, arrogance, on the part of any human being is extremely, and let me say it again loudly, extremely dangerous.
Lets face reality here - we Armenians can not afford to alienate those who sincerely would befriend us. These are not the days of Tigranes the Great or even pre 1915. How many Armenians have ever been to the Old Country - places like Erzerum, Mush, Kharpert, ... etc.? I will give an example. A few years ago I gave a guest lecture on the historical Armenian homeland at a University level class on Armenian heritage and language. The Armenians students, although quite intelligent, essentially did not even know the names of the cities that before the Genocide were filled with Armenians.
So you see ... this is the state of the situation, as it is in reality. Let's deal with that reality. How? The people on the ground right now in the Old Country are Kurds, plain and simple. They know the lay of the land, the dangers. What do we Armenians know except lots of theory (granted there are some exceptions)? I will give an example. On a trip to the Old Country the group I was with wanted to see Zeytoun. The local police and Turkish military were not allowing us to pass. But then one of our guides, a kind hearted and smart Kurdish man by the name of Jamal, started talking ... the way the locals do ... to the military commander. Long story short - our entire group was personally escorted into Zeytoun. Had it not been for Jamal I doubt we would have seen Zeytoun.
So lets stop beating our chests by finding any little fault and instead work with those that would work with us, based on common mutual interests.
You summarized Dumanian's sincere message and concerns quite well Vigen.
Dumanian is right on: "The incestuous comments by the ARF youth particularly (you’re a traitor, Turk, Levon supporters should be shot and killed, deported, etc) during the elections, but also in general, should be deplored by ARF leaders. You should all be aware of how big of a problem it has becoming. (As well as the comments of the [oligarchic] leadership rank)."
I also just realized Attarian suggested the following: "It makes me, and possibly others, see a pattern of generalization on your behalf of putting people in groups and stereotyping those groups, as you have above. Or is there symbolism behind that statement that certain groups of Armenians are still “savage” and “cult worshipping” robots of a certain “tribe”?"
I was actually referring to what Avetis had called me in an earlier post. He was the one to call me a savage African tribesman worshiping the Levon cult (or he agreed with someone who did). Nice to see there was such public outrage against Avetis too!
Dr. Papyan is 100% right and his analysis is quite direct, logical, correct, and spiritual. It is nice to have such a great personality, like Dr. Papian is, among Armenians. That is of course the good news. The bad news (also a very old news) is that Dr. Gagik Sahakyn of the Armenian Constitutional Court is a traitor, a terrorist type traitor. He wants to show the society that he is doing the right thing; though most Armenians in Armenia and in Diaspora know that Dr. Sahakyan is a spy in anything he has being doing and he is doing. In Mr. Kocharyan terminology, Mr. Sahakyan is a fox. The most important fact is that both fox skin and bear skin are expensive and they do have their price.
Bravo ARF! It is the only Party in Armenia that tells the Truth and only the Truth and nothing but the Truth. I wholly join the ARF Truthful Statement!
Sahakyan was not determining whether or not the Protocols are good for Armenia -- he was determining whether or not they are legal...that is the only thing he set out to do.
Granted, he is a corrupt crony in the pockets of the regime-in-power, but I think traitor is not the correct word.
Now to quote our beloved Harut Sassounian:
"Two opposition parties have asked the Constitutional Court of Armenia, the highest court of the land, to review the legitimacy of the February 19 presidential elections. All sides should respect the judgment of the Court, even if they disagree with it"
Way to go folks! You really have done an outsanding job with the Armenian Weekly Online. I am very pleased with the content, authors, professionalism and overall presentation of this site. I'm genuinely grateful and humbly impressed with all of your teams efforts. Khatchig, Andrew, Nayiri and others I have missed serdis shnorhagalotyun. You guys really have outdone yourself and a mere cake would not come anywhere close to showing my appreciation for your hard work and perseverance. A plate of my Nenes hand rolled dolma and chekefteh may however!!!Lol!
If I may, the Asbarez is also an interesting news source and they have done an incredible job as well, but the commentary is not as quickly updated as it is here thus hindering discussion with fellow Armenians. Anyhow, not a huge issue, but discussing, reading and debating issues with dozens of Armenian's in real time over the web is valuable, entertaining, informative and adds that unique communal sense of a proud Armenian readership to any story.
Vartzgernit Gadar.
The U.S. State Department has become a sort of Communist Politbeauro of the Soviet period, as it is operating its agenda in the communities in a socialistic way. Mrs. Hillary Clinton has always been a loser at large and remains a loser. Though minor Armenians within the United States of America are proud to shake hands with Mrs. Clinton, the Head of the State Department, no matter how miserable they themselves become or how miserable and silly their Government in Armenia grows. One essential thing remains -- to change Texas into Tekhasshchina and Oklahoma into Oklakhomshchina.
You make good sense Dr. Deranian, as I was with the same logic so far. I met here an Armenian lover like Ferhat, who feels Kurdish of course; but he or she is obviously a well read individual who loves our culture and wishes that the progressive kurds like himself/herself would cooperate with Armenians in good faith against the Turks who are highly political and extremely deceitful. I completely mistrust the Turkish government but much less the Kurds who are in the same predicament today as we were in 1915. Their Kurdish Assembly have accepted the Armenian Genocide and Ferhat seems to me as a progressive Kurd with a love for Armenian culture. I feel bad for them; because they are living in great fear now when they were massacred en masse thanks to the Turks and also the Iraqis. The Turks are not leaving them alone and they are afraid of their families and themselves. It's not in a good predicament to be.
Ditto and my compliments and sentiments to ARF. They are THE party that I trust with our nation's security, our people and our sovereignty.
To Nairian,
I appreciate your concurment with my earlier comment. What you say about the plight of the Kurds today is very heart wrenching. It's amazing to think that some of the very same tactics the Turks used on Armenians, i.e. not allowing us to speak our language, are being used on the Kurds today (new laws lacking implementation in Turkey not withstanding). I'm reminded of a condition known of Turks called 'The Sèvres syndrom' wherein they feel that the peoples living around them are out to get them. Guess what - the Turks are right! The only glitch is that the peoples around them have not united. Turkey has a hard enough time keeping the Kurds down. Just imagine if the Kurds, the Armenians, the Syrians, the Greeks, the Georgians, the Laz, the Assyrians, the Bulgarians (I'm probably leaving some groups out - my apologies) united against Turkey, the last remnant of the Ottoman Empire. I'm not saying the Turks don't deserve to have a rightful place to live and even flourish. It's just that they don't have a right to steal what is not theirs. They've been doing this for millenia and it's time they stop, for everyone's sake, perhaps most especially their own.
Indeed they do analyze situations and documents and do tell the truth for the benefit of the people and our country.
As Tavit says, if the invited pro-protocol organizations have any decency, they should reject Clinton's invitation outright, if not for her discrimation against the rest of the American Armenian community, but at least for insulting their compatriotes.
Aramazd, relax my friend. I was asking for a intellectual duel. i was talking about challenging you on your jistory and literature.
I am, however, a Kurd, and 100% proud Kurd.
Look, your very childish and emotional remarks WILL NOT MAKE ME love this great people called Armenians. Sorry, Aramazd, you failed miserably in your attempt to hate the Armenians.
Armenians are a great people, with beautiful language and history.
I consider the Armenians our friends, and worthy enemies in the past.
Aramazd, take a vacation, and enjoy life. The issues of Armenians and Kurds will be solved by others.
Please do not hate.
Put emotions aside, this is an uphill fight against the all powerful Turkey, we need each other. Don't kid yourself too much.
As for the Armenian church architecture, once again, beautiful and exquisite straight lines.
Parevner paregam Hayerin.
Ferhat
Dear Nairian
I am a "He."
A lot of people tried to distance me from the Armenians, they all failed.
How many Armenian books did Aramazd read?
Shame on you if you missed Raffi's, Siamantos and many great writers' books. How many Armenian History books have you read? The only reason that propels me to, is your history, language and culture.
And if Aramazd suggests that I "might" be half Armenian, I am not, but wished I was, and too bad Aramazd, I consider myself Armenian. Sorry....
Ferhat:
I read an article in the Jerusalem Post that said the Christians were very traumatized living in muslim countries. My uncle (a genocide survivor), whose father lived in Egypt, (at the time of the massacres luckily) said they were not nice to the Christians either. You can imagine because of the horrible crimes committed against them in Turkey, they are very traumatized. The article said because of this trauma, they try to please the persecutor. That is interesting; I wonder in what way they really try too hard to please the Turks or muslims. Maybe they can answer that for me; I don't know. Maybe they should not at all try to please the Turks or muslims. Having said that, also, it is very likely that people like you, being a Kurd, are just as traumatized as they are because you feel bad about what the Kurds and/or Turks did to the Armenians.
Is it possible that some Turks also feel traumatized by what they did to the Armenians. So such tragedies take a toll on everybody. A social psychology course I took discussed the prisoner/jailer problem, if you have heard of that. People will hurt people because they follow orders. Also, once they become the jailer, they act very badly and hurt people in the role they play. The teacher said, however, later a jailer may feel just as traumatized as the victims for hurting them, depending on his conscience I suppose.
I hope you can reconcile with the Armenians. Maybe you will find some friendlier Armenians than these posters to have a dialogue with. It may do both of you some good.
Does this pop psychology do any good?
Hey Nairian,
Wow, the number has just jumped up to over 2 million Armenians "killed"!! It used to be 1.5M. Remember when your own people said the numbers were estimated at 300K post-WWI? Then it slowly grew to 600K a couple of decades later. Then in the 60's the number jumped up to 1M. Then in the mid-1970's the number actually hit 2.5M. After realizing that even the most idiotic people weren't about to buy that garbage, the number dropped down by 1980 to 1.8M. This still didn't fly, so the dashnaks dropped it down in the mid-1980's to 1.5M. Now it's back up to 2M. I guess we counting what?...I know, SPACE ALIENS!!! Let's face it...You're just a racist idiot caught up in your own brainwashed AYF hate indoctrinations! When you start playing around with numbers like you do, you've just lost all crediblity.
Hey Ferhat,
You're a Kurd like I'm an Armenian! Nice try though. But you gave yourself away (reread your own posts and see where and how many times). Sad how dashnaks will use any means, anyone, any lie to get what they want. It's okay though. The whole world knows what dashnaks are and what they've done. I believe that Sir Ellis Bartlett said it best when he made his famous address on the floor of the English Parliament in Feb. of 1895..."The Armenians are of all the oriental people, the most adroit, subtle, and the most PRONE TO LYING!". The world had your number way back then! Oh, one last thing Ferhat...Stay off the drugs! You're mind has turned to mush. You're making ludicrous statements, especially about Kohajaly! Get some serious mental health treatment before you completely mess up your mind.
Hey Paul C.,
Xenophobe? Moi? I think not! You want to see a real xenophobe, look into a mirror and the rest of your fellow dashnaks!! As for the fanatics and bigots which you mentioned, have you bothered to read the Manifesto of 1919 by your first Prime Minister/President? If not, I suggest that you do so, post haste. Caution: You may not like what you read! BTW Paul, you speak of assassins. Hmm, can you say Armenian terrorists Paul? You see, what you and the rest of these brainwashed dashnaks are doing is trying to have your cake and eat it too! In reality, you will ultimately come to the sad realization that it is YOU who are the true denialists! be patient. When the historical commission convenes and completes its findings, the whole world will then finally know the truth.
Hey Siamanto,
Compensation? Listen to yourselves for a moment. What are you all really saying? We want..., we demand..., we are intilted to..., we deserve...! Do you know which age group speaks that way? That's right...little spoiled, bratty children!! When will you compensate the families of the millions that died as a result of your dashnak's treachorous actions and traitorious betrayals? You tried for land grabs three times in 1919 (twice in Azerbaijan and once in Georgia). Each time you were kicked out and defeated. What did you then do? You went crying to the British and the US Near East Relief, the Christian Missionaries, anyone who you could play the "victim card"! But you made one error, didn't you! No one helped you when you played the "religion card" (as you've been doing for the past 90+ years) then. Why? BECAUSE YOU ATTACKED ANOTHER CHRISTIAN NATION (GEORGIA)!!! Your religion card became invalid at that point. Whoops! Now it's back to the same old I want...!!
Hey Manooshag<
I thought I recognized you! Didn't you and I already have this conversation? You remember, when I provided you with all that evidence proving how heavily armed you dashnaks were, where you got your weapons from, the mass genocides you committed (even upon your own non-dashnak Armenian people), the admissions from the dashnaks that were there committing these genocides (e.g. Ohanus Appressian), the diaries from numerous Russian officers, from your first PM's Manifesto from 1919, etc. Yes, I clearly remember us having a debate, after which you "disappeared" without responding to me (I believe it was when I asked you to provide evidence of the location of even a fraction of the alleged 1.5M Armenian bodies). But now you're back. Good. Let us continue where we left off, before your "strategic departure"! And this useage of the term "lies" is not becoming from a group that has perfected that very thing into an art (ever since 1895 in the English Parliament). Be real men and take the first step by admitting that dashnaks have indeed committed mass genocides and be done with it! The world isn't going to think any less of you than they already do now! Turkey doesn't want, nor does it need any of your money for compensation. Nor do we want any of your land. What we do want is a public apology from Armenia in front of the UN, and then for Armenia to withdraw its troops from NK. That's it. We already receive and take in over 6K Armenian citizens who are fleeing as a mass exodus from Armenia and coming to Turkey to live and start a new life. Tell me Manooshag, just how many Turks live in Armenia? How many are free to worship there? How many mosques are there (the one and only one in Yerevan is placed on a strict surveillance by Armenia's "secret police". They take pictures of anyone going into that sole mosque (no others in the entire nation!))? Remember what I told you before you disapeared on me...Take a good look into your own backyard before you start pointing fingers and accusing others! Even the UN says that there was never an "Armenian genocide" (I even provided you with the documentaions for that as well)!! Welcome back.
In Every Ethnicity Savages Breathe
'Savage African' what does it mean this
There are white tribes who are savages too—
Who invaded and vanished Red Indians
Were they White or Blacks?
Who committed Armenian genocide...
They were blacks or whites...!!!
(The Ancestors of Genghis Khan.)
We all have Black Genes and White Genes in Us.
Who says Armenians are pure-white.
And what does it mean to have a white skin?
We have all the syndromes and sickness,
lack of immunity and mental illness as other populace.
Do you think Armenian Jesus had a White Dermis?
I am sure he was black, but his heart was white
Arrived to save his people not Us;
Was imagined to be just White by Italian painters.
As they wanted Him to be look like theirs' phenotype.
!!!
Let us stop for a while...
The person who used this word,
He seems brainless
I am ashamed to read such people exist
In our intelegant Araratian genes.
I can only say, "We have tragedies in our mind
we should teach and correct
before blaming others for their mistakes. "
Sylva Portoian-Shuhaiber, MD FRCP
Note: Written Instantly
Hye, Dumanian has had his 15 minutes - and more.
Enough! Pahvets!
Manooshag
Hye, and we Armenians, together, the world over are in pursuit of our secured and honest Haiastan.
For we seek only our best interests for the Armenian nation and its needs.
Yet there are some who see Armenia as a source to fill their own pockets - not only in Armenia, but evidently elsewhere - some even from the democracy of the republic of USA - while denying democracy to our brethern in Haiastan.
These Serge cohorts must hate their own peoples, must hate their own Haiastan during its efforts to exist amongst the civilized nations of the world - well deserved.
Yet, probably donate monies to Haiastan, howsomever, they gain all their monies back by their absolute withdrawls from Haiastan - into their own pockets! Ahmot.
"Taking" from our fledgling Haiastan? Thus depriving the citizens of Haiastan who, intellectually, have so much to offer the world... How do you sleep nights?
Manooshag
Dr. Deranian, thank you and I haven't thought about all the nationalities that you have mentioned above; yet indeed I know that they have all suffered under the Turks' "yataghan" the sword. Lately I have been thinking about siding with the Kurds, the Greeks and the Assyrians against the Turks for the reasons you have already mentioned above.
Ֆերհադ ջան, դուն նաեւ կարդացա՞ծ ես Վարուժանէն, Պարոնեանէն ու Չարենցէն: Կը գնահատեմ որ թէեւ Քիւրտ պարոն մըն ես եւ սակայն այսքան սէր կը տածես մեր գանցերուն ու գրականութեան: Շնորհակալ եմ որ կը կարդաս ու լաւ կը գնահատես մեզ ու մեր հոյակապ գանձերուն:
Dear Ferhat, I am very saddened that in this day and age the Turkish belligerent government is harrassing you constantly and are not leaving you to live freely and without fright. It is totally inexcusable and terrible for civilians, your children, yourself and your entire family and your people to be in that frightful conditions. I can only say that I am sorry for you people, but take heart and simply put your heads together and work for your freedom and peace of mind.
ANCA should call the Armenian Assembly not to attend with Clinton, unless every Armenian organization will be attending.
All of you!
Just read what American Delegates wrote on 1921... pages 182; 193.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=uhs7rWlAlCcC&dq=seymour+house+paris+1918&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=vBDIqxqsjJ&sig=iVO2B_2NuO5BKhusNbG4T9fJ93A&hl=fr&ei=JXMJS-HTJ86w4Qbt4JnBCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
All the so-called Allies were perfectly aware of the Genocide.
Today, the English administration declares not to be able to qualify the Crime.
When Erdogan says British Empire is first guilty for the Armenians, he hints at that B.E. had incited Arabs and some idealist armenians to up-rise [and then B.E. abandonned the armenian populations to the turkish troops. A long tale... (General Antranik etc...)].
I don't know where you have been John; but I don't think you know at all that is going on in the world. No.1, our man Erdogan is trying to replace the ruling elite with his own people. It is well known he, his family and friends have profited enormously by being the ruling party. If any Jews are in the ruling elite, Mr. Erdogan, a well known antisemite has no sympathy for them. Rumors about Jews in the Turkish military are only being spread around to break ties with Israel. No doubt, what you and other antisemites would like is for Turkey, the USA and Israel to break ties.
Secondly, Erdogan's govt., or with approval of his govt., Turkey has put big billboards all over Turkey condemning Israel's actions in Gaza, which has created a large amount of antisemitism there. Not every Jew condones Israel's actions in Gaza, but the present Israeli govt. will have to deal with its actions and world opinion. Thirdly, yes there were attacks on Jews after the Gaza incursion; maybe you did not read around them. Several Jews were killed in Sumgait. Also, shopkeepers put up signs in Turkey " no Jews, Armenians, or dogs" can eat here. I guess the Jews keep good company.
Turkey has offered to sell Israel water which they need. Whether they could stand up to Turkey, pass a genocide bill, and get water, I don't have the answer. France wasn't afraid to pass a bill, you are right, and Turkey kept their ties with France. Also, Peres, an expert at conflict resolution, and I believe he is right, said it is for the Armenians and Turks to work out their reconciliation. We have nothing to do with it.
The USA is looking out for its interests, which I think it should do. This will not make you happy if Obama vetos another bill.
On the brighter side, it is always possible that years from now, Turkey and Armenia will reconcile and some kind of reparations made.
I have always been for the rights of Native Americans in the USA. I don't know if that is because I have Armenian relatives. Obama did recently award them 10 billion I think, which is only half of the claims they made for stolen land, oil rights, etc. Bravo, Obama. It may be only half, but for them to wait longer, it would be worse. So, you see, after 150 or more years, they received their reparations. Anything is possible. I would not give up hope.
Much is going on in the Middle East. Who knows where or when or how this war is going to end. If it ends in WWIII or the end of the world in 2012 as Jack Manuelian says, I doubt; but maybe in 1,000 or 3,000 years, our world will end. 3,000 years away is a long time; I won't be here.
If 2012 will be the end of the world or the beginning of a golden age, so be it. However, I think that is rather shallow thinking for the complexity of the world's problems. Yesterday, we had a big earthquake in Haiti. Mother Nature. The 4 men of the apocalypse, war, famine, disease, etc. To be always centered on Turkey, Armenia, Iran is self centered, when things are going on in the rest of world. Many people are dead, hungry and suffering in Haiti today.
The Jewish bible praises Cyrus the Great, an Armenian, for rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem and for freeing the Jews for captivity in Babylon. He was the first messiah to the Jews. The Book of Esther, says Haman, was an Amalekite, who threatened to kill all the Jews; however it was King Xerxes, the Armenian, that Esther married. Amalekites were only one of several ancient people (perhaps a semitic people like Elamites, who lived in Persia with the Armenians and Medes people).
Persians and Jews were very close at that time. My name Esther, is Persian, meaning "star."
The Persians, 0f that time, being predominantly Armenian and Medes influenced our religion, food, names and everything else.
Substitute John Wilkes Booth is a "Catholic", which many anti-Catholics do, and you have the assassin of Abe Lincoln was a Catholic, not a Jew. There is another Jack ? who is a rabid anti-Catholic, and publishes this version of the story; you could replace Catholic with Jew and come up with the same voodoo version of history, which he publishes. His is anti-Catholic, while this Jack and Christopher above are antisemitic. BTW, this anti-Catholic Jack has a very interesting tale about the Jews and Turks, which I read, but it is BS.
Haha, guys...I didn't call anybody a savage African tribesman...I was only mocking Avetis for doing so in another trhead.
Can we please move on from this?
The outrageous claims of Jack Chick, an unlearned evangelical, who believes in a world conspiracy led by Catholics. He has been branded as a hate group and black listed in some countries. Talk about all the conspiracies involving Jews above, written by Jack Manuelian, and substitute the Catholic conspiracy, and you have Jack Chick.
Nairian, thanks for thenkind words
Some of the people who post here have nothing else to do but damage the bonds between Armenians, Kurds and Jews. This is a treacherous act on the part of some here. Why? What they are doing is shooting themselves and others at the same time. turks are happy seeing Aramazds attacks on Kurds. It is sad, but Aramazd is Not Armenia, nor he represents 9 million Armenians worldwide. I will assume that a "recent incident with Kurds" forces him to vent hatred towards us. Aramazd, we are not here discussing personal issues that you or I have had with Kurds or Armenians. We are discussing serious matter, matters that will spell "death of a nation" if we are not united. If some Kurd hurt you or a member of your family, do not hold the whole Kurdish people responsible for the sins of a few.
Armenians treated me with respect, love and inclusion, but for Aramazd, I strongly believe that some recent occurances is forcing him to vent anger.
No matter what, the struggle against the Islamist terrorist state of turkey will continue. We have had thousands of Aramazds who tried to sabotage our progress, they are nothing but dust in the wind, they definitely do not decide our future, and will eventually be marginalized and forgotten.
Kurds and Armenians had their share of traitors and turncoats who worked and are still working on behalf of the Islamic terrorist Turkey. Sadly, they are on the wrong side of the fence, and they will be dealt with severly when judgement day comes on.
I read the Musa Daghs short history, and was surprised to see that in a population of about 5,000 Musa dagh Armenians, there were traitors working for the Turks. We too have/had our turncoats and traitors. We have maybe about 100,000 Kurds on payroll of the Turkish government, they all one day will stand in front of the Kurdish people.
You just proved Paul's point Robert! Now that your done reciting what they've taught you at the denialist Foreign Ministry of Propaganda in Ankara take a valium. As Harut correctly stated: No peace without JUSTICE. No reconciliation without restitution.
To Ferhat,
I am glad that you are not discouraged by this or that individual whether they be Armenian, Kurd, Turk or whomever. Your appreciation and devotion of the Armenian culture are a testimony to the hope of the human race, that no matter what our nationality, we can work together for a better planet.
Hye, the Armenian Weekly is journalism as it was, and was meant to be.
Thank you, all, for your dedication to our Armenian people, to our Armenian nation.
You, today, who follow so many of the past staff members of yesteryears, are keeping
their efforts alive - shornagalenk. Manooshag
Mr. Sassounian has made it a point to advocate for policy on behalf of Armenia not based on an accurate assessment of our geopolitical challenges and our limitations.
If the Bulgarians are doing it -- it in no way means Armenia should. Bulgarian policy might prove to be a failed attempt (driven more by a government's need for winning elections than anything else). It might isolate them from the rest of the international community -- one that is not ready to advocate the partitioning of the 2nd largest army in NATO. Thus, this might even weaken Bulgaria -- which means it will not only be less capable of advocating for its territorial rights in the long term, but its more immediate interests in the short term (i.e. economy, military, diplomatic).
And second, if Bulgaria is doing it (which I still don't think is what's going on), it is doing it because it can. It is an EU member, not at war, not suffering from a blockade, economically linked to the rest of the region (and thus can shuffle its weight around). It solved it's immediate problems, strengthened itself, and now it can afford to pursue grander goals.
Case in point, Armenia is not Bulgaria. And Armenians are not Bulgarians (or Jews).
Hye, Armenian Assemby have over the years been with the State Department in all matters concerning Armenians - opposition over the years. AAA is not inclined to 'support' any
others but its own convoluted choices - as proven in all these years! Sadly, such as these
bring home my belief for honesty in whatever leaderships for Haiastan.
Sadly, such as these are the same who give donations to Haiastan, howsomever, are also amongst the leaders who get back to pcket all they 'donate' - together with Serge and cohorts. Manooshag
I now realize why I have found myself reading Armenian Weekly as of late: observing the intellectual caliber of individuals posting here, such as the fast talkin' Levonakan and the MD who can't even spell "intelligent" and thinks Jesus was black, LOL, is really amusing me... God, In really hope you folks here are not an accurate representation of my people...
These letters by Martha Coakley and the Armenian Americans for Coakley utterly fail to address the issue for which Coakley is under fire in the media: her acceptance of an award by the Anti-Defamation League in the midst of the battle in 2007 (and ongoing) against the genocide denials of the ADL and its work with Turkey to defeat Armenian genocide resolutions in the US Congress.
I would like to ask the persons who constitute the so-called "Armenian Americans for Coakley", which I have never heard of before today, why they did not take Coakley to task when (1) she received the award from the ADL back in 2007 and (2) she made no public statement about the ADL's genocide denial at that time or anytime but rather (3) she praised the ADL and (4) she has yet to address the issue of the ADL's genocide denials.
We saw this sort of thing happen when certain Armenian American groups wholeheartedly and naively endorsed Barack Obama in the expectation that he would acknowledge the Armenian genocide.
The current issue is not about Scott Brown vs. Martha Coakley, or Republicans vs. Democrats, despite the attempts of some to depict it as that.
The issue of Coakley's acceptance of the ADL award - when she knew quite well its stance against Armenians - has been around since 2007. I myself asked Coakley at that time to not accept the award at that time, and I never heard from her. She put her own amibitions above truth.
I think that Armenian Americans are quite able on their own to realize that she is no friend of Armenians and that, by having let her off the hook then and now, she has learned the wrong lesson about genocide denial.
The only question isCoakley's having acted in an unprincipled manner by accepting the ADL award.
Coakley needs to give the award back to the ADL, demand that it change its stance on the Armenian genocide. Coakley must also apologize to Armenians.
Please see this local article which tells the story about Coakley (Martha Coakley criticized for accepting Anti-Defamation League award):
http://www.dailynewstribune.com/news/x1689206801/Martha-Coakley-criticized-for-accepting-Anti-Defamation-League-award
Thank goodness for the non-Armenian media at times such as these.
And please visit www.NoPlaceForDenial.com - the website about the campaign against the ADL's genocide denials.
What a weak letter to the Armenian-American community of MA!
1. Is she going to return her cherished award to the genocide-denying Anti-Defamation League?
2. If elected, will she support and vote affirmatively on the Armenian Genocide resolution in the Senate?
Simply put, I am not going to vote for her next week unless she forthrightly answers both questions and says yes to both questions. I encourage other Armenian-Americans to do the same.
Well done Mr. Boyajian and the Armenian Weekly.
thanks for your letter, I asked the site to correct but they erased.
I was expecting an unintelligent person will comment for a silly mistake.
I did two mistakes in my poem ' Inauguraton Day' where I won The Carnegie Prize for Poetry, April 2009. Go to the site and read.
In medical assays we do many mistakes, but it is ignored as far as we know the diagnosis and the treatment. Now is changed to MCQs.
Shakespeare at each page he wrote he had 6-7 mistakes but it was neglected , his enemies criticised him for that, but he remained Shakespeare, may be because he was not of an English origin.
But he had international soul; and all we are...I am sure Mr. Avetis your mother is of English origin!!!
Bravo commenters Boyajian and Armen above.
The ANC insisted Obama would deliver on his campaign promises re: the Armenian Genocide and insisted that Armenian-Americans vote him into office.
Obama failed miserably.
Now the ANC wants us to:
1) Ignore Coakley's acceptance of an award from the racist, anti-Armenian ADL;
2) Back Coakley, who, once elected, could turn on her word, as Obama and others have done?
ANC, where is your spine? When will you represent the will of Armenian-Americans, as you claim to?
I forgot to tell my late professor Tim R. Cullinan Professor of Community Medicine from Cambridge,
And gold medal winner in Medicine.
He use to tell, "English Language is a 'Hybrid Language' no one can master."
Read about him how many papers he has.
Thanks for Internet, that can correct all our silly mistakes but not our brain cells.
Where are Scott Brown's forthright answers to whether he will support the Genocide resolution in Congress? Before we encourage people not to vote for Coakley, shouldn't we consider that while her letter clearly isn't as strong a statement of position as it could be, Scott Brown (and Joe Kennedy) have committed to exactly nothing. All three have had the chance to complete the ANC Questionnaire and take positions on Karabagh, Genocide, historical commissions and everything else. So far the only candidate to take a stand was Mike Capuano.
We need an Armenian American, whether Independant, Republican or Democrat, running for the senate. Otherwise, we are going to be sold down the street. Enough is enough. It is time to send a message to both parties. Don't you dare settle around our interests. And, there will be severe political consequences if you do.
That includes, McCain, Lieberman, Byrd and the others.
The American Armenian community and most of our Armenian leaders have aligned themselves with the Democrat Party for many years. Perhaps it's our political heritage that leftist tendencies dominate our community. I for one did not believe Clinton or Obama when it came to promises to recognize the Armenian Genocide. None of them delivered!!!!!! However, Armenian Americans choose to ignore that the Republican party has been more honest on the subject. Presidents Reagan, Ford and Bush 43 are the only Presidents to have acknowledged the Armenian Genocide by using the term "Genocide" or "Genocidal" in public acknowledgments. Despite all this our community leaders continue to choose to brownie up to the Democrat Party. Obama couldn't have been more obvious in his treachery and yet I hear Armenians in this country make excuses for him. HOGWASH!!!!!!!!!!
It's time we use our vote against the Democrats and perhaps we will be taken seriously. Punish Obama in 2012 and vote for the candidate running against him. I will never vote for another Democrat using the Armenian Genocide as a carrot.
A significant segment of the Armenian population together with the two lobby groups (ANC and AAA) need to wake up to to being used by politicians for votes. This is for the ANC and AAA: Please put your energies into strategies to pursue possible reparations as a result of the Genocide. The President using or not using the "G" word or the passage of a so called Genocide Recognition Resolution (as if it's not recognized ) does not get us to any possible legal remedy.
Bravo Mr. Boyajian...It is very clear that endorsing Mr. Obama did not pay off. I don't think that Armenian groups should endorse candidates and let us make our mind up on who we support. It's time we do what's right for the people at large and not for personal agendas. It would be best that Armenian groups do not follow the examples of other special interest groups and unions and blindly endorse and support candidates. Here in Massachusetts we have a strong chance to elect someone that is honest, genuine and will truly represent the people. Martha Coakley is resorting to dirty politics and lies, because she is losing in the polls.
Well said Chris J!
There is so much electricity and energy behind Scott Brown here in Massachusetts
ditto Vahan
Coakley has made a very deceptive and damaging claim in her letter.
Coakley claimed that "It as an honor for me, as your Attorney General, to defend the Commonwealth successfully in Griswold v. Driscoll, ensuring that the Armenian Genocide continues to be a part of the history curriculum in public schools throughout the Commonwealth."
This is not true as anyone in Massachusetts knows. The defense of the genocide education law in Massachusetts was initiated by Coakley's PREDECESSOR, Attorney General Tom Reilly.
Want proof? Read this short piece from the Boston Herald which explains that Reilly not only was the one who initiated the defense of the Massachusetts genocide law but also spoke out against the denial of the Armenian genocide:
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Deval_Patrick
The point is that Coakley has a terrible record with regard to Armenians. She has done nothing whatsover to help Armenians. Worse, as pointed out above, she accepted an award from the ADL while she was aware that it worked against Armenian genocide recognition. Amot!
Hye, so I voted for Obama/Democrat
- who promised 'change'... and recognition of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks in denials since by all their subsequent leaderships;
McCain/Republican stated his position: not with us on the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians
Further, and this bothers me most of all...
McCain takes on a Palin to run for the office of Vice President of the United States of America (thanks to God she is not).
Of late, it was being discussed in the news media that he'd not met with Palin (of any consequence)
a pretty face - therefore didn't know what an airhead she is... and he shall have been a president!
- if McCain had won the presidency, and our Vice President shall have been Palin
- if McCain,whilst in office had been seriously ill, or, even passed away
- Palin shall have become the president of the United States of America!
This is addressed to those who complain that I voted for Obama - I had high hopes for his honesty,
I had high hopes for the cycle of Genocides to end... but, politcally, he's just another politician,
promises, promises, unfulfilled. Politics, take over - Morality? Doesn't exist... Why?
Manooshag
pol·i·ti·cian (pŏl'ĭ-tĭsh'ən)
n. An eel in the fundamental mud upon which the superstructure of organized society is reared. When he wriggles, he mistakes the agitation of his tail for the trembling of the edifice.
-- from "The Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce
To TorontoHye: Please refrain from taking Papian at his face value. Not that his observations are incorrect, but that he, too, is a trumpeter of certain political forces in Armenia. People who knew him closely from his years in Armenia’s public service remember that he wouldn’t do or say anything that would go against the ruling cliques under former or current presidents, because at that time he held profitable government positions. Once he jumped off, he started breast-beating. While on the surface his arguments are well-founded, for those who know him as a person he is just another self-centered megalomaniac, one of those with patriotic bravado on the outside, but to an essential degree focused narrowly on promoting personal image-building.
Manooshag, with all due respect if you were looking for integrity the right choice would have been Palin. She's not as well read as I would like her to be but she came from the ranks and she challenged her own party's corruption which in my book is a formidable sign of character. She learns very quickly, has convictions and is genuine. I remember how everyone used to mock Ronald Reagan as being a little stupid! Remember the term coined by the Democrats of Reagan, "The amiable dunce". They did a job on Palin too. You see a leader doesn't have to be an academic genius. A leader has to be someone who commands respect and is comfortable and open with their convictions. Margaret Thatcher was also considered to be dim when she first started. She was the daughter of a shopkeeper with no real world experience. She learned the ropes very quickly. The establishment never took her seriously. But dear Maggie, who by the way liked Armenians, knew what she wanted for Britain, the same way Reagan did for the US, and they executed on their plan effectively. That is leadership, having a plan and a set of goals, not doing what is the popular thing at any moment in time. You were right on McCain. Just another savvy politician without any vision or conviction. Personally, I'm glad Obama won because now Americans will understand what socialism is about and they will reject it.
For the record, Reagan stated the following on April 22, 1981:
"Like the genocide of the Armenians before it, and the genocide of the Cambodians which followed it,… the lessons of the Holocaust must never be forgotten."
ps. I'm a Libertarian.
To Vigen: I well understand that Henry is upset because as he said it, Diasporans as well as Armenians in the Homeland should have acted and attacked heads-on with the corruption in our Homeland that has been going on since the fall of the communism regime. I am pretty sure that Diasporans tried but unfortunately not hard enough. Nonetheless those oligarchs having the power through their not-hardly earned monies were already controlling the minorities in the country. When we look back at the majority of the people who were left hungy and in destitute, was probably hard for them to fight the regime when their stomachs were hungry, their children and families were hungry and struggling from day to day to put food on the table. However, personally since many years now I have been complaining about the corruption that has been going on various Armenian Forums. One thing though, and this I must come out and tell it straight; our party heads in the Diaspora should have fought with the corruption in our Republic heads-on. It is true that they should have had the wisdom and saw into the future and fought about it strongly and harshly so that within a few years span these oligarchs wouldn't have taken complete control of the country as they have been doing it now and for the past say at least 10 years. If you ask me, when Levon Der Bedrossian showed his true colors and he wanted to give back our Artsakh to the enemy; he should have been de-throned and thrown out of the country a long time ago. Besides, thanks to Levon Der Bedrossian and how he let our country in a terrible condition during his presidency, there was one million exodus from our Homeland. All our parties both in the Homeland and in the Diaspora should have been fighting for it at least for the past 10 years.
Hey Robert, read this that is written an Englishman. His name is Philip Marsden when he visited Anatolia, Syria and Lebanon in the 90's:
"On 24 April 1915 the Turkish authorities arrested Constantinople's six hundred leading Armenians. They rounded up another five thousand from the city's Armenian quarters. Few of these people were ever seen again.
In the interior Turkish forces began to deport the Armenians. Leslie Davis had been the American consul in Kharput. He had watched the Armenian groups come and go, and had listened to the rumours. Since it was wartime his movements were severely restricted and he had been unable to confirm what he heard. But one morning before dawn he managed to slip out of the town. he rode on to the plain of Kharput.
And wherever he rode he saw the Armenians. They were casually buried in the roadside ditches, their limbs half eaten by scavenging dogs; he saw the heaps of charred bones where the remains had places they lay so thickly in the dirt that his horse had difficulty avoiding them. As the day wore on, Davis rode further into the hills. He reached the shores of Lake Goeljuk. Here, in the valleys leading down to the lake, the scene was the same: corpses scattered amidst the thornscrub, bunched together in their hundreds - at the foot of cliffs, in gorges, in the hidden folds of land.
Those who weren't killed at once were gathered into convoys and driven south. These were the marches. Davis had managed to compile an account of just one of these dismal convoys; it had left Kharput on 1 July 1915:
Day 1 - 3,000 armenians leave Kharput. Escort of seventy zaptieh under commandof Faiki Bey.
Day 2 - Faiki Bey levies 400 lira from convoy for its safety. Faiki Bey disappears.
Day 3 - First women and girls taken by Kurds. Open violation by zaptieh.
Day 9 - All horses sent back to Kharput.
Day 13 - 200 lira levied by zaptieh. Zaptieh diappear.
Day 15 - Kurdish 'guard' take 150 men and butcher them, then rob convoy. Joined by
another convoy from Siva. Numbers swell to 18,000
Day 25-34 Harassed by villagers. Many women taken.
Day 40 - Eastern Euphrates. Blood-stained clothes on river-bank; 200 bodies in water.
Armenians forced to pay to avoid being thrown in river.
Day 52 - Kurds take everything, including clothes.
Day 52-9 Naked, without food or water. Women bent double from shame. Hundreds die
beneath hot sun. Forced to pay for water. Money hidden in hair, mouth, genitals.
Many throw themselves into the wells. Arab villagers give them pieces of cloth out
of pity.
Day 60 300 remain from 18,000.
Day 64 Men and the sick burned to death.
Day 70 150 arrive in Aleppo.
When I rose after several hours of reading such accounts, I felt dazed and numb. I walked back into the centre of Aleppo, through the high, narrow streets with their 1950s cars and the clattering souks. But I could not erase the images of the massacres. I then decided one place in particular had struck me - a certain cave at Shadaddie. I rearranged my plans: I took Torkom's map and a letter of introduction and left Aleppo for the desert.
"I am pretty sure that Diasporans tried but unfortunately not hard enough. Nonetheless those oligarchs having the power through their not-hardly earned monies were already controlling the minorities in the country. When we look back at the majority of the people who were left hungy and in destitute, was probably hard for them to fight the regime when their stomachs were hungry, their children and families were hungry and struggling from day to day to put food on the table. "
No, the Diaspora did not try hard enough -- it barely tried. The Armenian Assembly is actually a little more consistent because they tend to support whatever regime is in power -- a philosophy I disagree with because it has very big limitations. But the ARF, once Kocharian was in power, has essentially re-written history to make it seem like the government is trying to deal with the problem.
"However, personally since many years now I have been complaining about the corruption that has been going on various Armenian Forums. One thing though, and this I must come out and tell it straight; our party heads in the Diaspora should have fought with the corruption in our Republic heads-on. It is true that they should have had the wisdom and saw into the future and fought about it strongly and harshly so that within a few years span these oligarchs wouldn’t have taken complete control of the country as they have been doing it now and for the past say at least 10 years. "
No, Ms/Mr. Nairian -- this is not true either. The ARF in Armenia is essentially a pro-Kocharian force. If (more like when) Robert Kocharian comes back to power, you will see how your fellow party heads fall back in line. And the Diaspora talking heads behave similarly. I remember the AYF packet they gave us at our swearing -- the grossest distortion of history and politics I have seen.
"If you ask me, when Levon Der Bedrossian showed his true colors and he wanted to give back our Artsakh to the enemy; he should have been de-throned and thrown out of the country a long time ago. Besides, thanks to Levon Der Bedrossian and how he let our country in a terrible condition during his presidency, there was one million exodus from our Homeland. All our parties both in the Homeland and in the Diaspora should have been fighting for it at least for the past 10 years. "
This is how the sheep talk. You have not heard, read, or listened, to any speech LTP has had that isn't filtered by the Diaspora Dashnak press (which means you haven't read anything by LTP). At the very least, you are unfit to come to the opinion that you have come to because you lack basic information about this topic. Levon Ter-Petrosian was instrumentally in the foundation and consolidation of Armenian statehood. He was also instrumentally in winning back Artsakh -- these things didn't happen by accident. Levon has never agreed to any plan that "gives back Artsakh." In fact, without getting into the details of it (because it would require you to know other things you definitely don't know) -- the Madrid Principles (agreed to by Kocharian) are exactly the points LTP agreed to in 1998. Secondly, the position of the Artsakhian authorities are identical to LTPs (i.e. bring Artaskh back into the negotiations). Thirdly, the Military veterans branch of Artsakh (which was the only political force in Kharabagh that voiced an opinion on the election) sided with Levon (as did half of all Veteran organizations, including Yerkrapah). The Hayastantsi population that left Armenia in an exodus (like their relatives in Armenia) overwhelmingly support LTP. I am also one of those people (although we made it a point to stay until the war ended -- and only then left for medical reasons). You, the ANCA, and the Armenian Assembly, have done a great job of blocking out our voices, and the voices of the opposition in Armenia.
Nobody was talking about "human rights" and "democracy" when LTP came to power. Their was anarchy in the streets. Their was a war against the Turk. Their was no government. Democracy and human rights would have to wait. As they did in 1918. We had bigger problems. Had he failed to deliver on cleaning up the streets and liberating Artaskh, now-lost and pathetic parties like the ARF would be criticizing him for being "too soft and too slow." As if Hrayr Marukhyan could do better? Please. Don't pretend to be saints. Corruption doesn't go away, nor does it start with one person. Nobody even understood what a president was supposed to be like in 1991. We didn't even know what a diplomat was suppose to be (that's why we brought in our great friend Raffi Hovhanissian from LA). Levon built all that from the ground up. Can you imagine this... Kocharian being in power at the time? The fact is -- you have to judge people within the context of their time and place. The Dashnaks did they best they could in 1919. Sure, they ate before the population did (as do politicians everywhere), but I don't believe had they Hnchaks or Ramgavars been in power they would've been the saints they think the Dashnaks should've been.
Njdeh and Armen Garo would be rolling in their graves to see their party be reduced to one that has been and still is diametrically opposed to the will of the people of Armenia. Never mind your cosines with Kocharian (who is, despite your outrage at Serge Sarkisian and Levon Ter Petrosian, the greatest threat Armenia faces in its internal politics). Ironically enough, the Dashnaks of 1919-1923 behaved quite like the Ter-Petrosyan of 1991-1997. Only to be ousted by scum dressed in the clothing of liberty, offering "something better." Get real, learn history.
The Sultan was bad...but I'm sure you know who came after them...
Hey Robert, Here's a bit more.
By Philip Marsden, it reads;
"At Shadaddie in the Syrian desert. I turned on a torch and sent down the passage. There was no sign at all of what had happened, nothing to show that it had ever been anything but a vast storm-drain for the desert.
But for the zaptieh, it had provided a ready-made solution. As the mountains were emptied of Armenians so the Syrian desert filled up. The order came FROM CONSTANTINOPLE to clean up the area. All sorts of methods were adopted. Shooting was slow. Some were driven into the river. A great many simply perished from disease and hunger and thirst. Shadaddie provided its own natural apparatus. The passage was very long and very roomy.
The guards brought the Armenians here and pushed them in by the thousand; as more fell in so the first ones were forced down the passge. Then the guards dragged scrub to the entrance and set fire to it. That night they kept a watch over the cave, camping on the edge of the hollow. Then they returned to the town. Here was where Armenia had ended."
Robert, you can call me names like idiot and I would say back to you that you are the stupid idiot who wants to repeat your Genocidal government's brainwashing doctrines that is so much indebted into you it is pathetic. However I say 2 million Armenians because in the interim from 1895 through 1923 more than 2 million Armenians have perished. Out of 3 million Armenians in the Ottoman empire, only 800 thousand survived. You go figure it out.
Your denialist government is constantly brainwashing you that the Turks were killed too; but not by Armenians. They were killed because your Turkish government went into a war with Russia and against the allies, that is how they were killed in war; plus the then Turkish government did not provide their soldiers with the proper attires, food and shelter. You mention our Fedayis, do you know why our Fedayis were fighting on the mountains of Western Armenia? Because the bashebozookle Turks and Kurds were constantly stealing our most beautiful girls, women and children and were constantly killing Armenians. Our Fedayis were only fighting back against your peoples' lootings, killings and stealings. They were trying to rescue their people and a little bit; otherwise when the Genocide happened in 1915; not 1.5 or 2 million Armenians would not have been wiped out of their own homeland.
How is it that you have 70 million Turks in Turkey today, yet when Armenians were 4 million in 1915, yet today we are only 9 million throughout the world? If the Fedayis killed your people as your government Lies to your youth in school and to you people, then you wouldn't have been that many millions, and yet us very few.
If a Genocide did not occur, Armenians throughout the world would have been 44 million by now and not a mere 9 million.
Who are you calling scum? Tashnagtsoutyun? Are you real Dumanian? Like somebody said it in here earlier, if you have so much anger and anxiety towards the ARF, I suggest you take it up with them.
This is to Ferhat and Hamma and Deranian and the "Ferhat-jan" group and my other well-wishers who have nothing better to do than sit behind that computer all day and look for one more person to kick around (try to, that is). To those who happen to be Armenians I will have to quote one half stanza of a poem I read when I was 8 or 9 years old, that went, "... moracel eq, khamrel en dzer ugheghnere otaraser." This explains just about everything for those who understand a word or two of their own language. Those who do not understand a word can ask Ferhat for a translation. To Ferhat I affectionately say don't be such a sourpuss; go read my previous comments, but read them carefully because every word and every sentence was just as carefully written as not to offend your patriotism, and you may see (just MAY see)what Manooshag says, "The Kurds have their own plate and we wish them well" and "Armenians, together, worldwide, trust no one but ourselves!" This, just about sums up everything I have said. One more thing, Ferhat, (incidentally, you beat your chest about how much of an Iranian the Kurds are and how close Kurdish is to Farsi. Ferhat-jan [as some address you], your name is indeed Farsi, but it is written FARHAD, like the character in Ferdowsi's Rostam and Afrasiab, and it is pronounced 'far-hawd' with the accent at the end. The A of 'far' as in 'Arrow' and AW of 'hawd' as in 'Awed' pronounced with the voice rising as in 'about'. So much for etymilogy. Let me get back.), ralax, mah-man! I have had nothing to do with Kurds in my entire life, in fact I wouldn't know the difference between a Kurd and an Assyrian if they stood next to me for an hour-and-a-half. No, contrary to your imagination (and you are pretty good in that area) I have had no "personal issues that you ... have had with Kurds" or "If some Kurd hurt you or a member of your family." No, Farhad. Firstly, I wouldn't have let them, and secondly, like yourself I have been an avid reader; all I know comes from what I have read. No one in my family, or my ancestors, or relatives, or friend, or neighbors was ever harmed by Turks or Kurds. How so, you may ask? As you may have surmised (or maybe not) I am from Iran; my ancestors have been there for over 500 years. So, most of your suppositions and arguments and hypotheses and conlcusions for what I say or why I say become moot and empty. I am not addressing this to Hamma because half of the time I have no idea what on earth is he taling about or where he gets his "historical" references. To your admirers I say, "In daghal-doustan ke mibini, magason-and dowre shirini." Now, you have read 470 books, go translate THAT for them (I'll give you a clue; it is in Persian). And to you, unker Farhad, when you say "Shame on you if you missed Raffi’s, Siamantos[sic] and many great writers’ books. How many
Armenian History[sic] books have you read?" first of all your comment deserves no answer, and then, if you are getting a bit personal, can you tell me the full names of Raffi or Siamanto, wise-guy? Let me just say that most probably I have forgotten more than you will EVER learn. Why don't you go read Raffi's 'Khachagoghi Hishatakarane' and The Armenians, by John M. Douglas. And then come back for lesson number three. And what can you say about a major character in Zartonk, if you claim you have read it. If YOU can't make a comment or observation, then I verily say unto thee, thou art a phoney! No cheating allowed. Can't ask others. Although I doubt it very much if any of your sympathizers would know.
Incidentally, my father spoke fluent Kurdish and Lori among several other languages (Armenian, Persian, Russian, English, French, German, Arabic, Hindustani, Kurdish, and Lori. Before his death he was trying to learn Spanish). I don't know how or where did he learn all of that, but he was a wonderful man.
I still say more power to you Ferhat; go get 'em; them Turks! But don't mix us in.
Farhat stands at 463 lines.
Nairian, he is clearly referring to the current leadership of Armenia, not the ARF. Take it easy.
Hy Chris, then you'll enjoy reading Palin's book, now selling at $4.95...
Manooshag
Here is the Answer that everyone needs to read, also my comment didn't pass the "moderation" meaning there is a conspiracy against Armenians by Zionist Jews!
Also there is a fact, that no one will condemn the Fascism being preached in the Bible and Talmud, that Jews are the "god's chosen people".
http://jewishracism.blogspot.com/2010/01/denial-is-eighth-stage-of-genocide-dr.html
I disprove Jacobs' false assertions regarding Jewish views of Christianity in the following article:
The False Opinions of Dr. Steven Leonard Jacobs Versus the Demonstrable Facts: The Jewish Belief that Christians Are Idolaters the Jews Must Murder
http://jewishracism.blogspot.com/2010/01/false-opinions-of-dr-steven-leonard.html
Christopher Jon Bjerknes
Nairian and Tom,
Of course, when Henry Dumanian writes:
"Ironically enough, the Dashnaks of 1919-1923 behaved quite like the Ter-Petrosyan of 1991-1997. Only to be ousted by scum dressed in the clothing of liberty, offering “something better,”
the "scum"" he is referring to (which "ousted"" the A.R.F.) is obviously the Soviet regime (1920-1991), which he compares to Robert Kocharian's government.
J.E.BOTTON, M.D
1503 Langhorne Road
Lynchburg 24503 style VA, 434-384 8169 jebotton@aol.com
Honorable Congresswoman Jo Ann Davis
Washington, DC Office 1123 Longworth House Office Building Washington, DC 20515
Dear Congresswoman Davis,
I am writing you this urgent letter to prevent if at all possible a tragic error in the upcoming vote on H.Res.106, "Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution."
Allow me to introduce my self: I am a retired neurosurgeon having practiced in Lynchburg, VA from 1961 to 1994. I became a US citizen in 1963. I was born in Istanbul, Turkey in 1929 as a Jewish citizen. I grew up in an environment which included citizens of Greek, Armenian, Jewish and Moslem backgrounds and enjoying a friendly harmony. I graduated from the elite Galatasaray High School with honors before obtaining my medical degree in Geneva, Switzerland in 1955. I later received my neurosurgical training at the Medical College of Virginia in Richmond before moving to Lynchburg.
During my years in Istanbul the difficulties experienced by all around WW I were well known with Turkey struggling for its survival in a war against the major world powers in an unfortunate alliance with Germany. During the same years the Armenian citizens encouraged by Russia, England and France organized revolutionary groups - Hunchak, Tashnak..- undertook what should be termed as a civil war against the Ottoman Empire with the hopes of establishing an Armenian state extending into a large part of the Turkish territories in the East. England, desperate to engage the USA under a very religious President Woodrow Wilson propagated thru an intensive process of disinformation the presumed facts that the Christian Armenians were being exiled south from the border against Russia and being killed in the process by the Moslem State.. There were tragic killings on both sides either by military activities but also from diseases and starvation. Later on the word genocide was applied by Armenians particularly in their Diaspora in Europe and in the US with an ever increasing number of deaths mentioned from year to year, well above the original Armenian population then in existence. No mention of the close to three million Moslem deaths resulting from this civil war as well WW I. Armenians had been well treated in the Ottoman Empire along with Greeks and Jews, serving in various professions as well as in Government. Armenians were in the latter capacity during those same years.. In not a too distant past the Arnenian terrorist group ASALA has also managed to kill dozens of Turkish Diplomats and their families in the US and in Europe.
My mother remembered the bombing of the Ottoman Bank in Istanbul by Armenian terrorists resulting in riots and counter actions by the State or ordinary citizens. Jews were and still are grateful for their rescue by Sultan Bayazit from the Spanish Inquisition late in the 15th Century and later during WW 2 by the Turkish Republic from the German killing fields across Europe. Along with the Nazis a volunteer Armenian group helped the transportation of Jews to the concentration camps..
Unfortunately Turkey has been too apathetic towards the accusations filled with increasing hatred and what I would call the Greatest Lie of the 20th century propagated by a rich Armenian lobby in Europe and the US. Only in recent years a better educated and aware Turkish generation has begun to try to counteract these lies and to some extent attempt to improve the bad press Turkey has suffered as a result of these allegations which expect the recognition of this so-called genocide, to be followed by monetary and territorial demands..
For most of its existence since 1923 the Turkish Republic has been a staunch friend of the US, as a member of NATO, during the Korean War, recently in the events in the Balkans and Afghanistan while allowing bases to the US in its territory. It was the first Moslem state to recognize Israel in 1949 with which it has been a very reliable ally.
I do not think the passage of HR 106 would be in the US interests in many ways, in today’s political situation in the Middle East and elsewhere but even more importantly the moral loss for the US by abiding to long standing misinformation. These allegations have NEVER been brought to a judicial venue such as the International Court. This was refused by the Armenians as being according to them a self evident fact.. I resent the attempts to compare these terrible events in the early 20th century to the Holocaust: Jews were killed systematically just for being Jews and certainly not for treason, terrorism or territorial demands.
Forgive me for this lengthy letter. I hope you will consider it and vote against HR 106.
Respectfully,
Dr J.E.Botton, FACS
Republican - VAMember of the Foreign Affairs Committee
WWill you give any explanation to this mister Jacbs?
What the Democratic party is doing in Washinghton, DC is nothing short of treason. So now we have a Democratic dictatorship. Never in my 70 years have I seen my country collectively taken away from the people and not one democrat take one step back. I never thought I would ever see the day!
Dear "Genocide denial", That is exactly what I am talking about: Erdogen, a Muslim wants to break the grip of the ruling elite, also known as the deep state. The deep state is made up of mostly military, intelligence and segments of the finance industry. The deep state was the direct reincarnation of the main players of the Armenian Genocide. The perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide were not religious by nature as Henry Morgenthau wrote many times. Having Jews in the military, finance etc; is not a myth. It has been known for years. Ask your self why Turkey, a 99% Muslim country and the most antisemitic country on this planet has very close relations with Israel? And Erdogen has been trying to break that grip. These type of efforts usually end in a military coup. Second, before calling anyone antisemitic you need to stop apologizing for the many Jewish organization that deliberately put forth effort to not only stop any truthful acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide but deliberately participate in it's very denial. I can't think of anything more racist or immoral then for a group of people who preach "never again" but go out of their way to do exactly the opposite: the denial of another race's genocide. That is hardly "staying out of it". Last, since when is lying about genocide and to contradict massive volumes of U.S. archival material good for U.S. interests? That myth was created by a few neo-cons in the state department to not disrupt the ruling elite in Turkey and I 100% disagree with that policy.
Manooshag, heaven help us all if the messiah, Mr. Prez "O", should pass on to his great reward while in office. We would then be represented and our precious freedoms protected by Joe, the blowhard, Biden. Now that's a scary thought! Promises, promises that's all one gets from politicians and as you have so aptly learned Obama's promises re: the genocide were hollow...just window dressing to get elected. His was to be a transparent tenure. That too has not occurred. In view of Ms. Oakley's track record, it doesn't seem promising to expect that if elected she would put her muscle for recognition behind her promises. Good luck with that! And as for Sarah Palin...why not? Just maybe she might have delivered. I still hold out hope, like the old Greek philosopher with the lamp, for an honest man/woman. One more thing...Term limits.
Why don't you all just give it a rest already!!!! Listen to yourselves! School children whine less than all of you!! You all could care less about a candidate, as long as they are for a "genocide" which even the UN says never occured! Jack the Ripper could run for office and say that he's all for the so called "genocide", and all of you would be falling all over yourselves trying to vote him in!! You wouldn't even care what he's going to do for the state or district which he'd represent. Pretty selfish on your parts, don't you think (to hell with everyone and everything else, we want a hack that we can buy to do our bidding and dirty work for us)! Well, the historical commission will put an end to all of that soon enough! Manooshag, I see that you're here too. Why am I not surprised!!
Why does opposition to the ARF always have to be "anger" and "anxiety" and "issues" and "problems?" As if there's something psychologically wrong with us people...
I was also referring to the Bolsheviks and Kocharian...I'm pretty sure the ARF never "ousted" anybody out of power.
Nairian -- no offense, but I think by proving that you are completely unaware of all of these historical events and people (1991 and onwards), you are simaltanesouly validating everything I'm saying about how ignorant the Diaspora is. And thus, it is no position to have an "opinion."
Hey Nairian,
You bring up Marsden. Interesting. Can you say "British Blue Book"? Now, can you say "Marsden and the spread of bogus claims, later found to be false, AND admitted to by Armenians themselves in their diaries (found decades later...see archives)"? Can you say "Christian Missionaries who rarely, if ever, saw first hand accounts of any "genocide", but relied solely on the words of dashnak Armenians, then proceeded to file their reports"? Or how about...can you say"Morgenthau's personal assistant and also his secretary, both being dashnak Armenians, provided 'ol Henry with all of his information (considering that he hardly left Istanbul), which he in turn reported to Wilson"? Can you say "Religious and ethnic bias by the West"? Can you say "Forged documents of Talat Pasha by dashnaks"? Can you say "Doctored photographs by dashnaks using modern day photoshop software (yes, we have the ORIGINALS!)"? Can you say "Dashnaks shamelessly using actual photos of murdered women and children to prove a "genocide" from 1915...the only trouble being that these are the same photos of murdered civillians from WWII, killed by the NAZIS!!!"? Can you say "Dashnaks refusing to have an open public forum debate, with full media coverage, and always running away from a debate"? Oh, I could go on and write volumes, but the historical commission's findings will do my talking for me! The protocols will be ratified and the action will begin soon enough. Let's get ready to rumble!!! BTW, I'm not going to call you an idiot because you've just proved that you are one!! NEXT!!
Hey Vigen,
Take a good look in the mirror, all of you, and ask yourselves just whom the REAL denialists are here! Practically every "evidence" that dashnaks have submitted have long since been proven to be falsified, forged or fabricated! Everything from "the Talat telegram" to Hitler's suppossed comment about Armenias (which the War Crimes Tribunal at Nuremburg in 1945 rejected THREE times!!)"! Once again, the historical commission will bring all of this out for the world to see very soon. So far, I've seen nothing on any of your posts that hasn't already been debunked, or soon will be. So...Dream On!! You're all in for a rude awaking soon, shattering all of the propagandal brainwashing you've received from your hate indoctinations at the AYF.
I just have a question if it possible can someone email me the address of Zadig Orphanage and if it's possible more orphanage addresses in Armenia.
Jews are the "chosen people" because God chose them to receive the ten commandments - a moral code which is common to three religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Being the chosen people does not mean you feel superior to everyone like the Nazis do. Jabotinsky was a victim of pogroms in Russia and was an idealist, who wanted the Jews and arabs to live in total equality in Israel; he knew if arabs were not treated as equals, Israel would have difficulties.
Most of these antisemitic comments are coming from those "unlearned" souls who really do not know too much about the Jewish religion or Zionism, and they are outrageous.
I have to say that it might be wiser for Armenian churches to invite speakers, who are neither antisemitic or anti-Catholic, and invite instead speakers from Turks or Kurds who want to reconcile with the Armenians. I do believe we are at a point where reparations can be made to the victims and descendants of victims of the genocide in the future; a dialogue is going on in Massachusetts between people of good conscience, and I sincerely believe this will lead to reparations being made; some reparations are already being made by Turkey. Instead of wasting time blaming Jews or Christians for the Armenian genocide; both are historically wrong btw; if anybody had a good education, they would know that.
You may want to pass the genocide bill, but last time, and I did listen to the Congressional hearings, by saying you are not asking for reparations, I think you are giving up your request of reparations which is a mistake. I do believe that you should not say you are giving up any request for reparations because I do believe that reparations will come your way in the future. The dialogue has only recently begun.
This is between the Turkish, Kurdish and Armenian people, not the USA, Russia, Israel, the Pope, or any other country.
If Turkish, Kurdish people of good conscience decide to make reparations, they will; and I am sure they are going to.
Կը խնդրեմ խմբագրական կազմէն թէ ես ալ կուզեմ իմէյլը ունենալ Զատիկի որբանոցին հասցէն եթէ կարելի է: Շնորհակալութիւն:
Նայիրեան
Why is it those turkish vermins like Robert have to re-write history same as their genocidal vermin turkish government for 95 years, and every word they spew it's about Tashnaks. It looks like the way you are very well programmed by the GENOCIDE DENIAL GOVERNMENT OF YOURS ROBERT. I don't blame you per se but your backward fascist ultra-nationalistic government who happen to live impossible dreams of pan-turanism, genocide denialism and you people are bashebozooks; therefore your country will crumble in no time at all. Bunch of stealers your turkish fascist killer of a country - namely turkey.
John, I only know that Turkish nationalism has pushed the Jews out of Turkey, including my rich Jewish friends, and that Turkey is antisemitic, and my Turkish Jewish friend doesn't like everything Israel does, and he isn't antisemitic. Also, Jews don't have equality in Turkey at all, they can't be elected to the parliament, so I think that your idea that Jews have been and are a big influence in Turkey might be just plain wrong. Nationalism had the goal of Turkey for the Turks, not for the Jews or Christians, and they were forced out. Turkey has problems today with the Kurds. I asked you to consider the possibility that Turkey or just nationalistic Turks on the street are a danger to hurt Jews and Christians at the slightest provocation. I have no objection to anyone passing the genocide bill; in fact, I am going further, I think you should ask for reparations and file lawsuits in Turkey to restore your historical monuments. That was done already by a rich Armenian who lost a big piece of property; and he won I believe, showing that those who are rich and have a lot of money for lawyers are ahead.
Jews disagree with each other; you seem to be interested only in Abe Foxman; you must know, a lot of Jews did not agree with what he did.
I am trying to answer this outrageous hate group accusing the Jews of the Armenian genocide; like I said, anti-Catholics have accused the Catholics for the Armenian genocide. Both are wrong. Just like there are antisemites, there are anti-Catholics who believe in voodoo conspiracies. I am making a plea the the Armenians to have a dialogue with the Turks and Kurds and get reparations instead of blaming the Jews and Catholics for all their problems.
Robert, you are too much... but it is all futile I am afraid - while I admit a little fun though!
One can not fight myths with reality. Period. Do you really think truth and facts and figures matter here at all? This myth is what now defines the national identity of a vast majority of Armenians, like religion and flag, people will die many times before they give up their identity. Be it false, be it a lie, be it a fiction, it really does not matter.
The person above tells a typical story of genocide supposedly and we see that there were no orders for physical extermination, no death or concentration camps, no mass graves or gas chambers and still after providing the very proof that contradicts their myth, he then does the victory dance! So they suffered, so they were robbed and mistreated and KURDS did most of it.... never mind, Kurds are their brothers now! I mean this is for the comic books, really!
Many Ottoman officials faced the courts after WWI and tried for their criminal negligence or crimes against Armenian civilians, some even hanged! Others were assasinated by Armenians, no trials, and they walked free.
How many Dashnaks paid for their crimes against their people? These people, who were SOLELY responsible for the misery and suffering of their people a century ago are STILL ruling and ruining their lives! Go figure!
Armenians for Democrats, what a farce! , and to all Armenians who voted for Obama because of his promisses to recognize The Genocide, haven't you learned your lesson yet, and now you want to vote for another Democrat? aside from the Genocide issue, why don't Armenians please vote for Scott brown, who at least has not made any false promisses, and we as Armenian-Americans might have a chance to block the majority vote of Democratic senators from passing their absurd health care bill, and all other of their ingenious schemes, to spend -and -ruin our country.
Here's the direct link to the USA Today article:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2010-01-14-book_of_eli14_ST_N.htm
Vahak, you're right on! They are a bunch of clowns pandering for our vote with the promise of granting everyone's wish. I still say Term Limits. That would at least give us a modicum of a guarantee that they have a finite time to get to work and get something done for us, the people who put their faith in them and got them elected to a job with perks and responsibilities. Then, too, there would be no Kennedys at whose shrine we would have to bow. Bah, humbug! This mess is the result of broken promises and ill gotten gain. btw/I'm one Armenian who didn't vote for Mr. Fix It, Barak Obama.
Dumanian, who says that I am completely unaware? Go fight with whomever and consider this; that I am not a turk or an azeri.
Coakley may not have fully understand how serious we view the ADL's constant lobbying on behalf of the Turkish government to defeat Armenian Genocide recognition in congress. It should be pointed out to her that numerous members of the ADL have opposed this immoral stance, and a number of prominent Jewish scholars both here and abroad acknowldge and support Armenian Genocide recognition. She should be made aware that a number of Massachusetts towns have disassociated themselves with the ADL's No Place for Hate program , as has the Massachusetts Municipal Association. She should be asked to follow their example and disavow any connections or honors bestowed by the ADL.
May the oligarch stooges all go to Jahenem and quickly.
May they all go to Jahenem and quickly.
Perhaps it's a typo or other oversight, but there's an apparent error here: "Even the third-generation Diasporan Armenian talks about their ancestral home in 'Turkish Armenia' and recants [should be 'recounts'] the stories of horror, death, and destruction that the Turks—and some Kurds, mostly of the Zaza tribe—have inflicted..."
For one, the Zaza are not a tribe; rather, they are speakers of the Zaza language. Second, Zaza speakers are concentrated around Dersim (The Turks now call it Tunceli), and the Zaza-speaking Kurds of Dersim actually HELPED the Armenians escape the genocide being perpetrated against them.
As Garo Sasouni writes in his book, The Kurdish National Movement and Armeno-Kurdish Relations (with which Dr. Astarjian is closely familiar): "Some ashirets [clans/tribes] not only did not participate in the massacres but, on the contrary, granted shelter to and defended the Armenian masses that found refuge with them. For example: Dersim became one of the centers for the Armenians' salvation, and thanks to it nearly 20,000 Armenians were saved via the Erznga and Erzrum line."
Sasouni also writes: "A surprising fact is that in the 1915 Genocide a greater role was played by the 'raya' [serf] Kurds than by the ashirets. The [Turkish] government, suspicious of the ashirets, pushed the raya Kurds to the forefront, armed them, and gave them broad freedoms as a temporary gendarmerie force to massacre the Armenians and enrich themselves with the [Armenians'] abandoned goods.... The Kurdish raya...were extremely cruel and were even successful in turning in to the government those Armenians who had found refuge among the ashirets."
To this day, there are "hidden Armenians" among the Dersim Kurds (see here, for example: http://www.noravank.am/en/?page=theme&thid=1&nid=1897), and the Turkish military has often singled out Dersim/Tunceli in recent decades with severe "counter-insurgency" operations, burning down and otherwise wiping out entire populated areas. Interestingly, the Turkish military often refer to those Kurds as "Armenians."
This Armenian is supporting Brown.
Aramazd, don't you think tha you're acting a little bit childish...for a lawyer?
Grow up, looks like you've been hurt recently, or better yet, more than Ferhat, you are enjoying the spotlight here. Listen from a person who is closely related to Christopher Mikaelian. Our leaders past and present always encouraged inter-ethnic dialogue, as long as our issues are addressed. Relax, no need to go on defensive here. My I ask you quite innocently about your age?
Thanks
James Mikaelian M.D.
Hi Doctor Mikaelian, You are really related to our wonderful Krisdapor Mikaelian? Your presence in here is an honor. Thanks for being here with us.
To Aramazd
“In daghal-doustan ke mibini, magason-and dowre shirini.” This is what you wrote. "The trader you see friends, are flies-circling around the sweet", thank you for the kind words !!!
Your old educations are outdated in this modern days. I am more Nobel Persian than Kurd. The Persian Noble's came from royal Median family.
Today many people calling themselves Persian, they came from India, Turk and Arabs.
Thanks to modern educations we are learning how to communicate with each others without insulating statements.
We are going forward to learn more and rebuild our nations and rebuild our relationship with other nations.
In the family power struggle during Emperor Darius the Great. We Iranian lost our most educated segment of our society "The Magi- The wise man". Greek scholars, Jewish scholars and many others tried to destroy our past but thanks to modern technology we are learning and gaining back part of our history and our civilizations. I do not need to quote others for references made up by them. I need to use my brain and read between line the other people wrote for me.
You prove it Mr. Aramazd that what ever the Jewish scholars and Greek scholars wrote are true nothing else but truth. The holy books are not so holy in this modern days. The people are asking about the truth and logical statements.
I will continue to search for truth as long as I am a live. May be my English is not perfect like native but I will get by. I will use editors to rewrite what I write. I write the fact and logical things.
When I say the Jewish scholars are invented the word "Semitics", I did my research on that, their stories in the holy books is not checking out. The Jewish blood come out to be Kurd according to the DNA test by Jewish people, not the imaginary Semitic people they made up.
Look for my article abut "Abraham" in the future. Modern since are miracle isn't it Mr. Aramazd
The Zaza's are neither a tribe of Kurds nor are they Kurds. They are Zaza an Iranic people. The northern Zaza within the watershed of the Euphrates are Alevi and helped Armenians during the genocide. These Alevi Zaza's experienced genocide in 1908 and 1937. Within the watershed of the Tigris, the Zaza are Sunni and they committed genocide against Armenians, Assyrians and Yezidis.
As for the term "Turkish Armenia" this is an Archaic term since Armenians and Armenian civilization no longer exist there. It is "Turkish occupied Armenia".
I wouldn't vote for another Democrat after Obama's empty promises and delivering nothing. They all want our votes, then sayonara to you they say. I would agree with Vakak. At least Scott Brown didn't make any false promises.
What fo0ls some Armenians are. All a politician has to do is mention the word genocide and he's your best friend. I'm almost ashamed to be an Armenian-American.
How about considering the real problems America faces? You want to pay higher taxes, you want to treat terrorists as common criminals, you think there are no more terrorists in Afghanistan, you want to bankrupt America with unimaginable deficits, you want to pay more for medical care and get less, then go ahead and vote for a woman who makes empty promises about genocide recognition that she has no intension of keeping. She's running a desperate campaign full of lies about her opponent. How can you trust such a person? I'm appalled at some of the stupid things this woman has said.
Fortunately Scott Brown will decisively win on Tuesday (the Armenian National Committee not withstanding). And that will be the beginning of the end of the Obama nightmare.
By the way, I have donated to Scott Brown's campaign, but will never ever again donate even cent to the Armenian National Committee.
To Richard; Democrats have 60 senate votes already, and if this woman wins, Obama's stupid health care bill will pass. We must not vote for this Coakly woman; she can keep her empty promises that will forever remain empty. We don't need them nor do we need to vote for the Democrats.
Hye, richard gostanian, of the AAA? Manooshag
Mano,
I've never heard of the AAA. What is that?
Richard
No need to go to jahannam, they have made one in Asia Minor by the time they got there, from central Asia, and it is very sad that by now they have not realized, no mater how many millions of innocents so far they have killed, or caused to be killed, and on the top of all what they have done, it looks like they still have the appetites, to open the borders and go to Armenia and Artsakh, and finish their predecessors unfinished job of exterminating the rest of the Armenians, may Holy Trinity save us from that day, not Pr. S. Sarkisyan and his weak government.
Manooshag
I was never crazy about McCain. How many Armenians are there in Arizona? Not too many, so why would he make these statements?
Read this link:
http://www.reporter.am/index.cfm?objectid=126CCBF0-D073-11DE-8EAC0003FF3452C2
I fail to see as to how this type of shouting insults and half truths to each other will result in better understanding and reconciliation. This has been going on far too long...I have an uneasy feeling that may be some people are trying to keep the issue alive for their own selfish and not so honorable reasons...Enough already. We should have a quite, serious study and investigation of the events by an independent commission comprised by academicians, politicians, lawyers and historians, carefully selected and appointed by the United Nations and Human Rights Organizations and approved by the interested parties. A "truth commission", so to speak...This commission should have access to all documents and evidences which are not currently made available to public. We should then adhere to their findings and recommendations and move on to live our lives in peace and harmony. We share a lot and have too much in common as people...
I agree with Henry Dumanian; It is advisable for Armenia to pursue wise policies on solving its economic and social problems and improving people's living standards. Political settlement with Turkey is in progress. Settlement of the other issues should follow the political and economical rapprochement and with the "truth commission" as I recommended earlier.
This is to Johnny-come-lately another-doctor James Mikaelian MD. I am 83 years old, but I am a true fighter for the rights of my people. Even though the Armenians of Iran were not directly affected by the massacres, I believe those who murdered our people should first of all be forced to admit their deeds, and then they should suffer with the thought for the rest of their lives. Nor do I expect anything from them. I just want them to suffer. I cannot forgive them lest I betray the ancestors of Jeshmaridian and Deranian and Grikor and Nairian and Harold and your ancestors, Mikaelian, and ... and all those who beat their chest for "brotherhood." You say, "Our leaders past and present always encouraged inter-ethnic dialogue, as long as our issues are addressed." I am not sure about the first half of your sentence, if indeed 'our leaders' [in plural] "encouraged" any "inter-ethnic dialogue." Unfortunately, they were busy arguing with each other; Ramkavar vs. Hunchak vs. Dashnak vs. ... and [with all due respect to your grandpa]I am not sure if their plans, like the bank episode of 1896, helped us in any way. In fact it hurt us tremendously. As my brother-in-law would put it [unrelated to Babken Suni] "if we killed 10 of them, they killed 5000 of us." His father fought alongside Andranik. Iranians express almost everything in poem format; beat, rhyme and all, and to people like yourself who say, "Listen from a person who is closely related to Christopher [Kristapor] Mikaelian," etc., they say 'Giram pedare to boud fazel, As fazle pedar to-ra che hasel?' [ask Hamma Mirwaisi for a translation, but loosely put it means, 'supposing your father was a learned person; what good comes to you from his wisdom?']. As to your advice, "Relax, no need to go on [the] defensive here," I wonder what made you think I was being defensive? And no, my dear doctor, I do not need any publicity nor do I enjoy being under the spotlight, nor have I been "hurt recently" as you diagnose [without examination]. Perhaps it would have been a good idea for you to go read quite a volume of comments heretofore made by a good number of people before your claim to fame ... and free advice. Let us read first, then express opinion [if asked].
Now to Hamma Mirwaisi. I wish you well in your article about “Abraham." God willing, I will read it. But I am still at a loss to comprehend where from do you get your facts. I give you a B- for your translation. You missed the true meaning of "daghal-doustan," although it is difficult, in general, to translate expressions. Well, I'll make it a B.
Oh, yes, I almost forgot. To PhD David Deranian, and his "University level" lecture, and the Armenian students not knowing the names of cities inhabited by Armenians before the Genocide. Could it be that the attendees had difficulty with your English? I have been to Armenia several times, each time for many months, the longest; eight months, and I have been in close contact with college kids and the University. I was always highly impressed by their knowledge of their own history. Besides, there is an excellent book that I bought in Yerevan (three versions: Armenian, Russian, English) that includes statistical data with maps of all areas [not just "places like Erzerum, Mush, Kharpert, … etc., … filled[sic] with Armenians"]. The book is a serious work and it includes statistical information about the number of people massacred in each town and each area, including geographical maps. I wonder if you had access to this book in preparation for your lecture. They had access, the Armenian students, that is. You see, the book is published in Armenia. Although out of print, it can be found at the Yerevan central library, at the American University library, at the Yerevan University library, in most reputable bookstores, at the underpass book-bazaar of the Yeritasardakan subway station [where I bought mine], and in most home-libraries. Almost all of the families I had the opportunity to visit had a copy. I wonder who were those Armenian college students that were unfamiliar with the topic of your lecture. [If you are really interested, I can give you the title of the book and its publisher.]
Finally to Ferhat I say, no "straight lines," arches. Go look from inside. As cruel as it may sound, Ferhat, to your "mee miag garogh em neroghutyun khntrem polor ashkharki hayerits" please read my comment, above, for those who killed us. (You have been kind of quiet for the last couple of hours. How come?) Good luck to you, Ferhat, you are a good Kurd and a patriot, but you may have to fight your own battle, by yourself.
OK, folks, this is my last log. I have better things to do than be a good Armenian, and then be lashed out by an ignoramus bunch who do not speak Armenian, who cannot write or read Armenian [hats off to Ferhat], who speak pidgin English, who think if they play golf or put their baseball cap on backward they have "arrived," or those who have not given up the habit of beating their compatriots to pulp, or those who cannot write two lines properly and grammatically, or those who just talk big but are empty between the ears. Goodbye, folks, the show is over. I made my point. And we can disagree.
Brown is better for America, Mass., and the Armenian people.
People of Mass., do not make a mistake and vote for Coakley.
Hye, so you are facing a choice: coakley or brown. so far coakley is not to be trusted. but there will be votes for brown, who 'hopefully' is the better candidate. Well... now we are back to what I was 'hopefully' for with my vote for Obama... with either a McCain vs a Obama .
Genocide perpetrators are the winners... victims of all Genocides are the losers. The Genocide cycle continues in a world of 'civilized' leaders... but yet, how civilized are those who ignore Genocides?
And, as for the issues beyond the Armenian Genocide, 'hopefully' all the Republican/Democratic voters carry the ball for the citizens of the USA... as they have and shall continue 'hopefully'.
Manooshag
Hy gostan, you are not Armenian... else you'd know. Manooshag
To Mr. Aramazd
The conflicts and wars on earth are not new between nations. The best to read stories from many sources then do your analysis in hope to find facts. I took American history in school; the professor said will be nice to read the same history in Russia to find out the truth.
I do not know why some Armenian in Iran is full of hatred toward the Kurds. I read about one Armenian moved back to Armenia from Iran and the Armenian Governments give him job. He forced out the Yazadi Kurds of Armenia, I do not know what authority he has. I understand Shi’a Iran do hate Yazadi Kurds because they think that they are descendent of Yazed bin Mayoaih Arab King who killed Imam Hussein of Shi’a.
I immigrated to the USA; American friend of mine helped me to learn English. At the time the USA people did not know much about Kurds. He found two books with word Kurds in it. I read it, it was written by person called himself Nobel Persian and said he has only one daughter. He wrote and advised the American people, if you are traveling in Iran do not go to western Iran because there are people there we call them Kurds. They are thieves and murderous, they might hurt you.
I said why these Persian writing horal things like that. He is not going back to Iran. According to our peoples believes then he do not have son because we not count for women to take our place when we die in our society. Why you have to be so means when you know soon you will die. Why some people are not making some thing good instead of bad.
So Mr. Aramazd you and that Armenian who hurt Yazadi community in Armenia are under influence of the affect from the hatred of those kinds of people. The people should know the roots of hatred by that kind of Persian are coming from the Shi’a Islam. Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūbi was the leader of Muslim during the First Crusade war. He forced Shi’a to become Sunni Islam in Egypt and other Arab countries when he was running part of the Islamic world.
I am not from Turkey, I grow up in Iraq and Iran we never hurt Armenian’s but I do understand what happened to Armenian people in Turkey. The Turks used Kurdish tribal man to fight Armenian people. Those kinds of Kurds are fighting Kurds now in Turkey. I do not blame the entire Armenian people because you and that Armenian from Iran hurt group of our people. And you should not blame the Kurdish nations for those who are for sale to hurt others.
The Kurdish nations in Turkey are facing genocide by Turks of Turkey. Just like what they did to the Armenian in the past. We are trying to get united with people who have the same background to defend on our right. The Kurdish leader went to Greek for that reason. But Greek Governments betrayed him, We Kurds not blaming the entire Greek nations.
I am writing book to make peace between the people in the region. I am calling for the Economic Union for the people from Pakistan to Turkey and from Kurdistan to former Soviet Union countries including Russian and part of east Europe. I am calling for the independent for each nations and sub-nations within that geographical Ares. I hope the Turks will be civilized by then.
I call on you and other people like you and me to help establish honorable peace instead of hatred. I do not hate Turks, I hate their actions.
The Armenian people with excellent educations one of them were my professor in school. They can help in the USA to balance godless lobbyist (most of them unfortunately coming from the Jewish community) so we can stop the US Governments support of Turkey.
The Kurds and Armenian in Turkey and around Turkey can do fight. We in the USA only can hope to educate American people about the unjust practice by the US Governments whom they are under influence of Lobbyist. It is not true that the US Governments in need of Turkey any more strategically. The US Governments are in Georgia, Kurdistan, Afghanistan and former soviet countries. But Turks are paying very good money to buy lobbyist in the USA. The lobbyists in return are convincing policy makers in the USA to bend over for Turks aggressions.
In short Mr. Aramazd to fight for the Armenian nation’s right is to educate American people and force lobbyists to stop their unjust practice. Do not spend your time fighting Kurds because it is useless. They are just like Armenian people. Fight those who are hurting Armenian and Kurds.
Peace Mr. Aramazd
Hy Robert the turk,
you are so well programmed by your leaderships
you only know to tell lies (aping your leaderships)
comprised of bullies...
End of 'conversations.
Manooshag
The ADL is unbelievable. They believe it was genocide but that we should work with a government whose Prime Minister called genocide "a lie" in a recent Charlie Rose interview in a historical commission??? What on earth do they get out of this slavish relationship to Turkey that they'd bend themselves into such a horrifically illogical pretzel?
Let the Armenian nation decide what is the best way to get recognition. I think if the Jews and Nazis just sat down and talked about their differences, that would have been a better route than getting recognition from the United States.
Their is no difference between Nazi indoctrination and Turkish indoctrination. The ADL wants us to believe Turkish indoctrination is a lesser evil. If the Jews had paid attention, indeed if the whole world had paid attention and given the Armenian Genocide recognition, there perhaps would have never been a Jewish Holacost.
May the ADL, who acts as a proxy for the Turkish denial machine and the complicit world bodies go to Jahenem and quickly.
I have known Sheikh Nazim Adil for forty years and have never known him to suggest violence. He is very much a person of prayer and self-improvement, and of course praise for our creator.
I think you have really exaggerated him as the fiery-eyed Moslem cleric. Those of us that know him, know he's a wonderful, caring person who cares about all of mankind. I have only heard him say we must kill our egos.
Maybe you should kill your ego also.
I would like to point out one recurring theme I found in all these prejudiced "hate "groups claims, whether antisemitic, anti-catholic or anti-Armenian is that the out-group is a fifth column.
"A fifth column is a group of people who clandestinely undermine a larger group, such as a nation, from within, to the aid of an external enemy." Read more under wikipedia "Fifth Column."
Because of this fear that a group of people is a fifth column, goverments throughout history, including Stalin, have repressed, murdered, population transferred, interned people; you name it, it has been done (genocide of the Armenians), out of fear and prejudice.
I only mention one instance, internment of the Japanese Americans during WWII. Justice Rehnquist wrote in a book of his that this was totally wrong and unjust; recently reparations were made to those interned. Only those in California were interned (not those in Illinois for instance), but all their property was taken from them and never given back. Children in California today are taught in their textbooks that this was wrong and that internment of the Japanese was due to prejudice.
I offered this as an example of how Turkey should treat the Armenians. Teach their children that the crimes against humanity against the Armenians were the result of prejudice and make reparations to the descendants of the victims, even if the amount is $_______ (?), and formally apologize as the US govt. has done.
Obviously, the claim that there was armed rebellion from the Armenians (a fifth column) is the false prejudiced claim made by the Turks to justify their actions; actions which were not justified nor should the be condoned. It is anti-Armenianism. All the hate groups are amazingly alike.
Interests, Interests... "It was Genocide, but it is not in OUR interests to acknowledge it". "While we have celebrated Turkey’s history of coexistence with Jews and the protection Turkish society provides for its Jewish community"... Wow... as long as the Jewish community is protected in Turkey, the hell with everyone else! They were celebrating their lovely coexistence while Armenians were being butchered around them! Is Israel this afraid of Turkey? I guess it needs Turkey this badly!
Can you imagine someone saying: "It was a Holocaust, but it does not suit us to officially acknowledge it"! Unbelievable! Us Armenians, have been abused, disrespected and walked all over by everyone and anyone. Turkey is not only guilty of the Genocide, but it continues to actively and with every illegal way imaginable to cover that criminal act. Turkey should not only pay for the Genocide, but it should also pay for consciously continuing its genocidal goal by erasing Western Armenia’s history, desecrating our archeological and cultural sites, brainwashing its own people by distorting its own history and threatening everyone who speaks about the Genocide. It should pay for 94 years of psychologically abusing and traumatizing the survivors of the Genocide and their descendants by denying them rightful justice. The Genocide is not an act that Turkey's ancestors committed in the past. It is a live policy system that has evolved into its final stage (ie the Protocols, and forcing the Armenian Govt to acknowledge the "Legality" of Turkey's borders). We came a long way battling this denial. We now have to raise one loud, confident and dignified stance against everyone and anyone who dares to marginalize us. Israeli, Turkish, American, Russian interests.... their interests are THEIR problems! Unfortunately, we have been put down and looked down upon for so long as a people, that some of us insecure Armenians are inherantly programmed to put "other's" interests first. This is OUR history, these are OUR rights, and who but us should fight for OUR interests! For once, can the Armenian Genocide be about us! We were the victims; it is time we raise hell and get the attention due to us! Turkey and its allies will not be able to avoid the Tsunami of movies, books, media coverage, legal and civic involvement that we are able and should put forth, TOGETHER!
I have published an open letter to Dr. Steven Leonard Jacobs and Khatchig Mouradian editor of The Armenian Weekly demanding that they publish a retraction of the numerous falsehoods they have published, which falsehoods are exposed and corrected in my letter. My open letter appears here:
http://jewishracism.blogspot.com/2010/01/open-letter-to-dr-steven-leonard-jacobs.html
An Open Letter to Dr. Steven Leonard Jacobs and Khatchig Mouradian of "The Armenian Weekly" Demanding a Retraction, January 17, 2010
Christopher Jon Bjerknes
To Aramazd,
I hope your are reading this. Generally I don't favor getting personal in such posts but in this case I will make an exception. Why? Because you strike me as a very intelligent and articulate man that for some reason has an axe to grind, not just with the Kurds, but with Armenians as well. You have managed to alienate just about all that have posted here. Now you might say so what and typically I would agree with you. But this is not just any old post. This is a discussion about the Armenian and Kurdish nations, our past, our present, and our future. Instead of finding fault with just about everything anyone has to say, why not encourage the good? As a scientist I can say with much experience, there are ways to critique without provoking.
About not being able to forgive the perpetrators of the Genocide, yes without confession one could ask how there could be forgiveness. But when there is confession my Christian faith, the same faith that our Armenian forefathers died for, says that we must forgive, or suffer the consequences. Lets not forget how important the Christian faith is to Armenian culture.
As to the matter of Armenian students not knowing about historical Armenia, I'm glad to hear that there are such great books about the subject. Indeed, I know about many of these books. A clarification is in order however. The university where I gave the guest lecture was in the United States, not Armenia. I would indeed be surprised to find students in Armenia that did not know about Western Armenia. The problem is in the diaspora, the tragedy being that we in the diaspora are loosing our connection to Western Armenia.
“We continue to believe that there was a genocide, but there’s no useful purpose in the House or the Senate passing a resolution on it at this time" ... No useful purpose for the ADL (ie Turkey and Israel) that is, for such a Resolution to pass. What a farce! No useful purpose for a crime to be acknowledged and for the victim to get what it is due to them, because Israel is not going to gain anything from that, at this time... So we should wait until the big players can gain something out of the recognition of our Genocide. It's been how long? 94 years? What arrogance!
According to Garegin Amatuni (Dareru untatskin ... Krtatsats Hayer) Dersim Armenians who had become Kurds belonged to the Alevi sect as was the surrounding Kurdish population. And according to Raffi, in his commentary "Hayere Kabuli mej," the Dersim Armenians gradually assimilated among the Kurds after remaining a long time without priests. Perhaps it was the memory of their ancestry that prompted the Dersim Kurds to help Armenian victims of the Genocide.
To Nairian,
Thank you for the encouraging words and reason - that as an Armenian you are thinking about how our interests do coincide, at least partly, with the Greeks, the Kurds, and the Assyrians. I've often thought that had we ancient peoples been united some 1000 years ago, the Turks would never have made it out of Central Asia in the first place.
Turkish TV to broadcast Taner Akcam events in Turkey.
Nice write up on Naomi. In another hopeful sign from Turkey, Turkish TV will be broadcasting two events highlighting Taner Akcam, one on the Dersim massacres (genocide) of 1937 and the other on the Armenian genocide.
http://www.staffingtalk.com/2010/01/velvet-revolution-in-turkey-it-takes.html
Thank you all for your comments. It helps me to become better informed on the issues. I campaigned very hard for Barack Obama along with the Armenian community. I was just wondering about helping Coakley as I got a letter from the Obama campaign. I am not in MA and don't know much about the issues around this election.
Well said Katia K. ! !
To Virginia Smith
I assume you are a follower of Naqshbandi lineage of Sufi tradition, and it is true that Sufism in general promotes peace and love towards all human beings. Also it is true that Sufis practice their Zikr and all their fancy rituals to cleanse their souls and transcend their egos (lesser Jihad), still their main spiritual reference is their holly book Quran which validates the real Jihad against infidels.
When the issue arises and its about infidels like us they can easily turn into full blown Jihadists. Most of the Jihadist operations in Central Asia are conducted by Sufi sects, and lets not forget Chemical Ali, he was a devout practitioner of Kaznazan lineage of Sufism.
Mano,
You are beneath contempt.
Gostan
The important issue is to not let the ObamaCare bill pass. Health care is definitely an important issue, but the way Congress has gone about it, rushing and pushing it down our throats and doing it all behind closed doors has made it a very bitter pill to swallow. There has been no transparency as was promised. So if electing Brown slows it down because of an upset in the balance of votes, so be it. Everyone everywhere needs time to read and think and act prudently. Giving the government more power over our lives is not the answer nor is it Constitutional. So while it would be a huge plus after so many years of longing for justice re: the Genocide, electing yet another senator who pays lip service to the victims of the Genocide only to get elected is ludicrous and even shameful. I am an American of Armenian parentage. I have heard the sad and evil stories. They are part of me. Tears come easily to me. Perhaps they are borne of the suffering of Armenian martyrs. Now, however, there are other matters that need to be dealt with in this great land we share. No more lip service. Truth in government. God is watching now as when a million and a half innocent souls were annihilated.
Thanks for the great article. I am so glad to hear that there are conservative views still published in Armenia. Common sense is becoming not so common; here in the Obamanation ! ( formerly known as the U.S. )
Kindest Wishes, Bill Nicholson
I salute the Hughes brothers.
Here is a fine example of two talented brothers who, mind you, Never forgot their Armenian side, and have openly declared their love for their Armenian mother.
On the other side of the coin, Agassi, tried as much as humanly possible to cover or hide his Armenian heritage.
"We are strategic allies as long as our interests force us to do so," is what Turkey's defense minister said, about the "brotherly relations between Turkey and Israel." You all read here, right from the horses mouth.
Such are Turks, they will use and abuse any friend, be it the USA, Israel, Russia, Armenians or the Kurdish peoples, and then...... BANG, they draw their swords to finish you off.
One advice for the state of Israel and Jews worldwide: " Turks don't love you, in fact they equate you all, alongsied Armnians and Kurds, to dogs."
As a Jew, I know that the Genocide happened.
For me, what ADL says and does means absolutely nothing. All Jews and all Israelis know that the Genocide happened, it is just that Turkey uses us like hell, and we are unfortunately falling for Turkish phony delights.
So, these Turks here pleading their case that "no Genocide has ever happened" have all lost touch with reality.
The Genocide happened in 1915, 1.5 million Armenians were massacred.
I would suggest that Turks come clean, accept the fact, and end their futile attempts to deny the Genocide
And don't be discouraged when some Turks here post "lies and total nonsense" when talking about the Genocide. Justice is patient, and it can wait.
It is about time that Turkey accept its complicity and turn this chapter of their history.
A jewish friend of Armenians
As a Jew I am ashamed of the ADL response. They are clearly bending over backward because Turkey is a little less anti-Israel than other Middle Eastern countries. I say to he!! with them until they recognize the Armenian Genocide and get their own house in order. Us Jews don't need an organization pretending to represent us go soft on the Armenian Genocide because they're afraid of the Turks. UGGH. Well, I make my views clear when the subject comes up, but there clearly isn't enough education about what the Turkish people did. But yes, it's very easy to see the hypocrisy of the ADL in this situation. As far as I'm concerned, if the Turks need us to placate them in order for them not to be anti-semitic, they're not ready to deal with what happened and we shouldn't deal with them.
We Armenians must learn from the Jews to more fervently promote our issues. Letters to the editor in local newspapers can help to present our message and history to others who might otherwise have no knowledge of the Armenian Genocide and how it is that the majority of Armenians in America came to be here. As an old Jewish boss used to say to me, "you have to toot your own horn," we can and should!
I wonder who is controling the amarican government
Israel? Turkey? who?
Hey Aram,
Judging from your piece, it's quite obvious whom the real desperate ones are (and it's not Turkey!). That tightness that all of you are feeling is the closing in of truth against the 100 year old walls of dashnak lies and propaganda! Can you hear it creaking as chunks are starting to fall? The protocol's historical commission will be the wrecking ball which finally brings those walls tumbling down!
Hye, do Jews really believe the Jews in Turkey have received 'Turkey's 'benificence' over the years?
Turks lie - and you believe? You just suffer as did the Armenians. Manooshag
Hy robert - as I said, you have been well programmed by your own leaderships. Sadly. Manooshag
The ADL has still not acknowledged the Armenian genocide in an official statement. Indeed, in its only official statement on the issue, in August of 2007 - and even though the statement used the word "genocide" - the national ADL used language that was actually a denial of the genocide:
It is vital to understand why:
http://npfdinfo.blogspot.com/2007/10/has-adl-acknowledged-armenian-genocide.html
Armenian Americans and others are also invited to visit www.NoPlaceForDenial.com to read all about the campaign by human rights activists against the ADL's genocide denials. That site provides a timeline, articles galore, a Q and A, and much more. It is a valuable resource.
Most people will be shocked to read the sorry record of the ADL and similar groups' working against Armenians: http://npfdinfo.blogspot.com/2007/10/press-kit-history-of-opposing.html
Does the region you live in have ADL sponsored programs such as No Place For Hate, World of Difference, and others? You will know what to do when you read www.NoPlaceForDenial.com.
What you say Katai k. is so right on. Lets tell OUR story OUR way. This is what my associates and I are trying to do with our films. Have a look at our short documentary film about Komitas at www.komitasthemovie.com which is a content preview of a feature film we are working on called, Red Harvest which tells the story of the Armenian Genocide from the perspective of Komitas and the 200 + Armenian intellectuals and community leaders arrested on April 24, 1915.
Please correct the date of Armenia's last earthquake. It is 1989 and not 1999.
Thanks,
Zareh
Thank you, Mr. Dervichian!
I believe the interests of all Americans, especially those of us from Massachusetts - whether of Armenian origin or not, are best served by having competition in the political arena. One-party rule only leads to complacency and eventual abuse. The lock on power that the Democrat machine has on the Senate seats from Massachusetts should end. Because I believe he's the better person who will also lead this competition, I'm voting for the real candidate of hope and change - Scott Brown.
Actually the Persian word for eggplant is not badinjan but bademjan.
I wish I self-disciplined enough to be a follower of the Naqshbandi tradition as I know it, but I am just a weak person.
I abhore violence after living in Beirut for 7 years, the last two during the beginning of the war.
Before that, I met many Armenians and was told what happened in 1915. The scars run very deep, understandably.
But when I was in Beirut I also met Sheikh azim Al Qubrisi, and his kindness to me, an infidel American, made me see a different side of Islam. I never knew that the prophet told his people not to attack either Christians or Jews. I was also surprised to see less antisematism in Beirut than I saw in my own country at that time.
Of course, the things that happen in the name of religion are seldom actually part of the religion. It has to do with posessions and power and land; all the things we will not be taking with us when we leave this earth.
When we can remove the attachment of the emotion invested in religion from mans' basic instinct to own things and people, we will have world peace.
Generating hatred for people who are peace-makers like Sheikh Nazim on the suspicion that he must harbor some hidden animosity for Armenians is ludicrous. Yes, he is in love with prophet Mohamad. No, he hasn't got the time or inclination to be thinking of doing you harm. I'm sorry you had the experience of being hurt by people who dressed the same way Sheikh Nazim does. Many people do things in the name of Islam that are not Islam. I know all too well.
I hope this brings some peace to you.
The reason that the phony ADL is against any just resolution of the Armenian Genocide is they know they need to protect their own Jewish interest ie: the great many Jewish segments of the Turkish military and ruling elite. The Muslim movement on the other hand, with Erdogan and his like, don't really care for Israel or it's Zionist grip of Turkey and want to dislodge it. These thing have happened before and usually end in a military coup. The military which is part of the "deep state" has had deep Zionist ties since the genocide. Also know that none in Turkey, other then a few scholarly intellectuals or human right activists, are for any just acknowledgement or resolution of the Armenian Genocide. This includes the Zionist elites and the Muslim political movements. It is sad however, that Jewish organizations in the U.S. while saying "everyone should stay out of the Armenian Genocide debate" are the first to actively participate in it very denial to protect their own interests. The ADL is one such purely phony, self serving organization and Armenians must learn that Jews aren't their friends. Why don't the Jews and the Nazi's have a "historical comission" to iron out the reality of the Holocaust and leave most of America out of it? After all, if this is good for the Armenians then it must is good for the Jews!
Thank you Diran and Paul. And
David I am so excited about the link you gave us of the Komitas movie you have made. Movies, books and puications have trmendous power in educating and shifting public thought, and I truly believe that communication in all its venues can become our way to reach the justice that has been snatched away from us for so long.
To the editorial board:
Excuse me, but what happened to my last post? It's not here. Was it deleted? If so, then why? I never use any profanity/vulgarity. I have an opinion just like everyone else. If I was deleted, then that's censorship. If that's the case, then that means that you editorial board members are frightened of the truth and what I have to say! Are you all truly THAT insecure? Sad.
Please post my messages. Thank you.
Although no religions live up to the hype they preach (peace, love, etc) because they are man-made institutions, islam was founded on war and conquest. Think not? Try reading about the history behind Mohammed. He and his sect rode out of the Hejaz on a spree of killing, rape, and pillage for which the region has never recovered.
I just read an article written by a Turk in an online journal. He said there are no Jews in the military, judiciary, as there are no Armenians. Jews have no power in Turkey, never had.
The reason the Turks, esp. the military, is disenchanted with Israel today is its supposed support of the Kurds and Kurdistan.
Actually, I don't think the passage of the Armenian genocide bill would create any break of ties between Israel, Turkey and the USA.
However, support of the Kurds might lead to a disintegration of Turkey and a threat to its sovereignty and might be the cause of present friction and is the cause of worsening ties.
I don't know how or why the ADL ever got involved in the Armenian genocide bill; but I don't believe they ever belonged involved in it. They are not a civil rights org., rather a social club.
I thought what they did was wrong, and I was surprised to find out what was going on, and I was surprised that Dennis Hastert and Richard Kephardt were taking money from Turkey. I did not know that was happening either, and thought it was wrong.
However, the issue today is the Kurds, and I will be reading the articles here about the Kurds, and waiting to see what develops.
Remember, the Kurds are sitting on an oil reserve larger than the one in Saudi Arabia.
The Kurds are in three countries, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. Kurdistan to be one, has to bring together its pieces; and taking a piece from Turkey, which is also the Armenian homeland is the cause of trouble for Turkey.
Everyone thinks that us Israelis are stupid, or are hijacked by the Turkish government and intelligence. The truth of the matter is that in our country, Israelis know how Turks can overnight turn on us, that is why we are prepared. Israel has contingency plans to stop any and all Islamic Turkish hegemonies in the region. Whats more, we will cram their faces with the word GENOCIDE.
This people has Never learned to be civilized. They always follow Nazi idiologies eliminating poor peoples and systematically carry out Genocides.
They never were our friends, behind their smiles hid their hatred for Jews, Armenians, Greeks and Kurds.
Turks, Israel is ready for your stupid and irresponsible actions..bring them on...
Avi
The Armenian earthquake was in 1988
Dear Avigdor Hakim, thanks for your post. All Armenians undoubtedly know it and went through the Genocide unfortunately. As a matter of fact, there is practically no Armenian family who's parents, grandparents or great grandparents haven't gone through it by either having walked the death marches down the Mesopotamian desert to Aleppo, or survived by an allied ship, or was orphaned and were taken away by the American Orphanage or a Kurdish or a Turkish family in Turkey. The one's that survived the Armenian Genocide, their souls were scarred for life after seeing how their parents, siblings and a relative dead or were forcibly taken away, never to be seen again; but they knew what happened to them and how savagely they were killed. It was a most horrifying experiences for those poor creatures that went through it. You see, my very poor father was one of them. As I said before, there is practically not an Armenian family who didn't see the Genocide and didn't go through it. It is very hearthwrenching and very saddening for me, when a young turk comes along on these forums and post it in here believing their Genocide denialist government with his eyes closed, while he is programmed that way by Turkey and denies it, then goes on and on and then he calls me and others some bad names too. BTW; I have always felt bad since I was a child when I first heard that 6 million civilian Jews had the same horryfing fate as the Armenian nation had in 1915 by the hands of the Nazis. I don't see anyone doubting the fact that the Haulocaust indeed happened. I sure don't want anyone to doubt that the Armenian Genocide has definitely happened.
I am speechless towards the editors of Armenian Weekly that they let denialist people, such as Robert or others like him to continue to take part on the forums of this paper, and I must add that the editors in here are exceptiaonally open minded to let them post here time and time again. They are extremely open minded indeed. There are other forums that if any denialist turk comes along, they don't let him/her post on their forums period. But not the editors in here. Any Turk with a denialist attitude and writings that come here, should bow and be thankful to the editors of Armenian Weekly that they let them post it in here.
That's a sweet story and from such talented brothers too. They certainly have Armenian eyes and Armenian features. I am glad that Armenians supported them, they deserved it. They are kind that they remember their supportiveness.
This is the event in Germany that Dr. Astarjian is referring to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhfnHKgF-yw
Thank you, Tom Vartabedian for introducing us to Mr. Movsesian and all that he does. What an amazing man! And, thank you for reminding us that people volunteer in all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons!
To David Deranian,
Thanks for sending the tube on Komitas.
I think every child with even very few Armenian genes should know about genuinity of Komidas.
Still we know very little about him.
Komitas is Our Mozart.
I love how these ARF "know-it-alls" in the diaspora come up short in justifyting the party's political opportunism in the RoA and how the ARF basically sided with the ruling regime after the massacres of March 1, 2008.
Vatche thanks for posting the link. Its enlightening to see Mawlana Qubrisi showing his true Islamic feelings... and did he say bringing the infidels down to their knees, or restablishing the last Islamic Ottoman Khalife system? So much for unconditional LOVE
Dear Dr. David Deranian,
I just finished watching the Komitas clip.... and couldn't help but become teary eyed. I am so happy that you shared your work with the commentators here. I commend what you and your associates are working on. Telling the story of the first 300 Armenians who got arrested on April 24th 1915 is sacred work. All 300 were intellectuals, poets, physicians, composers, teachers, journalists, ellected officials... all unarmed individuals, but threatening to the Ottoman leaders because they were the voice of the Armenian nation. Without that voice, the defenseless population had no guidance or communication, and was rendered completely vulnerable to the atrocities that were planned for them.
For Avi,
The Jewish State has so far not acknowledged our Genocide for many geopolitical reasons, but on the other hand it was Rafael Lemkin, a Jewish, who coined the term "Genocide" based on what happened to the Armenians, our most cherished survival tale "The Forty Days of Mousa Dagh" was written by Jewish writer Franz Werfel, and the Armenian Genocide Resolution in the US is authored by several Jewish-American congressmen such as Rep. Adam Schiff. It is a shame, that the Jewish leadership and the ADL are not living up to the courage, dignity and integrity of these Jewish citizens.
Turkey has successfully used its allies in the US to halt the production of many Armenian Genocide movies including the making of the "Forty Days of Moussa Dagh". It is succeeding to do this in a country which supposedly has freedom of expression! Dr. Deranian, my hope is that we will open our own independent production companies, instead of relying on movie companies that are under the influence of foreign lobbies, and just like you said, we should tell our stories in our way. Looking forward for your work...
Hye, mher, the know-it-all... you and critics like you, are a dime a dozen. Await a 'fall' and use it against the Tashnagtztiun (since you are anti). Well, wake up mher. Theodore Roosevelt said it years ago and it still applies. In this instance, the Tashnagtztiun, at least is in the Arena. Knowing, whether they gain or lose, they are there facing whatever - knowing that they are seeking to advance the cause of Hai Tad, and the Armenian nation, and more. Knowing there will be the 'dime a dozen critics' but secure in the knowledge that they have tried, and continue in their efforts... even giving hopes to a nation that was devastated. What does a mher offer - except criticisms....
Then there are proProtocols - who with Serge and cohorts have taken advantange of the economy and more of the Haiastan. Seems to me these same , many from the USA, have also filled their pockets... although they also 'donate' to Haiastan (to ease their consciences) but as I see it, they get it all back with Serge and company.
It is not easy to be in the Arena - these are brave and concerned Armenians - who realize they shall have to bear such as you, but yet, remain dedicated to Haiastan in all their efforts... Manooshag
Dr. Deranian, You are most welcomed, and yes despite the fact that my own father was a survivor from the Armenian Genocide; and I know that the Kurds were a good part of the Genocide because they were muslims and unfortunately took part in it, yet today their assembly is recognizing the Armenian Genocide and I believe 20 million of them right in the heart of Turkey. They are a significant power and their enemy this time are the Turks as it is also ours and to the Greeks. The Turks in all these years are denying the Genocide and are heavily lobbying in the US to have them deny it. As a matter of fact, I distinctly know that God wishes us to forgive as Christians, because God Himself is a forgiving God. Who are we not to forgive to the ones that repent He says, when the Almighty does it all the time to everyone. As a matter of fact, the only reason I was lured to come to these Forums in the first place, because as of late I was thinking of my kind and beautiful martyr grandmother who parished angelically in the Armenian Genocide. You'd think only Aramazd has a great deal of hurt feelings in his chest? We do as well and very much so; but we have to try to overcome that hurt at least to some degree when the people that annihilated us repent it, accept the fact that a Genocide indeed happened and they were also a part of it. Today they are also being annihilated by Turkey, the same way we were in 1915. We have to try and see the complete picture here. The Kurds are a power in the heart of Turkey. They are living in fright every day of their life thanks to the Turkish government, and I think we could live with the Kurds more peacefully than with the Turks, when given the chance, they'll annihilate us again and again. Simple fact, 95 years later, they are fighting with money, with polytiks and in every which way they can to deny that they killed more than 1.5 million Armenians. Speaking about the Greeks, if they were friends with us a thousand years ago, instead of fighting against us and not seeing who the real enemy was; today the Armenians nor the Greeks wouldn't have been massacred the way we were by the Ottoman Turks and the Seljuk Turks. Unfortunately, then the Greeks didn't see it and we both lost GREATLY. Today Turkey reigns right in our lands and plays the unimaginable and the dirtiest of politics against us, the Greeks and the Kurds.
I say, lets unite against the perpetrator (the Turks). This is how the Romans did thousands of years ago. When we look back in our history books, our King of Kings Dikran the Great (Medsen Dikran) lost our lands from sea to sea at the end of his reign. Most of us know it already how the Romans didn't wish us to be a powerful nation and they befriended the Persians, and our Medsen Dikran lost. I say, unite our powers against the Turks (our real enemy).
Manooshag and et al, if we don't want to vote for Brown than I suggest at least all Armenians not to vote for Coakley either. I also voted for Obama because unfortunately he gave lip service and I also wished to believe him because of the Genocide recognition. Here right after his presidency he did worse for us than Bush. Now I don't believe in Coakly for many good reasons, can you guess why? If we don't want to vote for Brown because he didn't say anything about the Genocide recognition; then at least let's not vote for either one of them.
To further continue to Manooshag's message above. Tashnagtsutyun had an army of fighters during the Artsakh war. Todate, they are fighting and have been fighting against the ridiculous self centered, self serving governments in Armenia that their only wish has been to make millions of dollars for themselves then depost it in Dubai's and the European banks when their government is overthrown from the Republic. Meanwhile the ARF is fighting with the disgraceful protocols and the corruption that doesn't seem to stop. Know this well; ARF is for the benefit of the people of Armenia and our sacred lands. They never did stop to work for their sacred cause and they never will. They will fight until the end of times and they will fight relentlessly.
I only know one thing:
Turkey is responsible for the Genocide.
They need to acknowledge this fact and soon.
Turkey is guilty of the Armenian Genocide.
Turkey must answer for the Genocide.
Turkey owns Armenians and many others monetary and land compensation.
It's high time Turks came clean and clear their tormented conscience.
Avi
Charles Aznavour seems confused abot the protocols. Good example with Evans Vatche e. He should probably just focus on singing.
Thank you for not forgetting your Armenian heritage. I am proud and honered. I wish you guys the best of luck.
The Armenian constitutional court implicitly ruled that the protocols could not take away Armenian rights (regarding land and the genocide). Now, whether that ruling really holds true in the future, we'll have to see. But the fact that Turkey objected to this ruling (and assuming it's not just "payback" for Armenia's criticizing Turkey's precondition of a Karabagh/Artsakh settlement) tends to prove that Turkey felt the protocols DID take away certain Armenian land and genocide rights. Thus, Armenians who objected to the protocols were essentially correct to be concerned about the protocols effects on Armenian rights.
However, since Serge has reportedly declared that Armenia adheres to treaties signed by Soviet authorities (which treaties does this mean, specifically? And when exactly did the Soviet Uni0n come into legal being? ), it is unclear how this fits with the constitutional court's ruling.
Any stupidity is being done with a serious face. The Armenian Constitutional Court is not an exclussion.
The one thing that I think I can understand from the very jumbled writing of this kid Henry Dumanian is that he faults the ARF for its shameful opposition to Levon Ter Petrossian: namely the rabidly anti-Armenian campaign waged both in Armenia and the Diaspora just because the then-dictator of the ARF, Hrair Marukhian, who was preaching democracy and had been at the helm of the party for decades, was upset that the people of Armenia didn't vote for the ARF. That is a very shameful chapter in the Armenian history. When Armenia was fighting a war and undergoing a brutal blockade, Dashnak officials were visiting ministries in the Diaspora to denounce the government of Te Petrossian, the first one of an independent Armenia, something that was a dream to many of us after decades of Soviet tyranny. That much is true, and with honorable exceptions like the Armenian Weekly, since the ARF has zero notion of self-criticism. If it does, someone whispers very quickly a short euphemism that passes for self-criticism (and it is usually a member who's being excoriated in a mild Maoist manner during purges in the party ranks.)
It is true that Armenians owe it to the Ter Petrossian government the victories in Karabagh, the opening of the Lachin corridor and the de facto unification with Armenia, and not to the uncertain numbers of ARF figthers in the enclave.
It is also true that the ARF did not criticize the Serge Sarkissian regime until it was very late, and only then it dropped out of the coalition. As long as it was in the government, it was very subdued in its criticisms. Now that he is selling out Armenia and Artsakh to Turkey it is trying to whip up opposition against the clown that is leading our homeland to perdition.
However, one has to make out what this kid is saying through the maze of hateful words, his anti-Dashnak loathing that prevents him from seeing all the party --for all its faults-- has made for Armenia's independence, its survival as a nation and the fight for the Armenian cause. He is so rabidly anti-Dashnak that he even seems to imply that the fall of the Sultan and the emergence of the Ittihad regime was due to the revolutionary activity of the party in Western Armenia. His anti-Dashnak venom and vast ignorance of Armenian history prevents him from writing intelligibly and, perhaps unwillingly, ends up in the camp of those little minds, including unfortunately Armenian ones, that bemoan the loss of the Ottoman Empire, a corrupt, murderous and violent state where Armenians and non-Turkish minorities were tolerated at best as long as they agreed to recede into ignorance and submission.
The members of the Armenian Constitutional Court should be celebrated for their wisdom and courage to try to salvage the unsalvageable! Their analysis and ruling is commendable under the circumstances. The Turkish side is coming across completely unreasonable and incoherent, because they went into these protocols with hidden agendas that are becoming more and more obvious as we go. Aren't the recognition of the borders as "legal" and the forming of the historical commission preconditions? Why were they in the language of the protocols if they were not "conditions"? If Turkey wants diplomatic relations it can reopen the borders and exchange diplomats now. Anything else qualifies as "preconditions", "dirty games"and "tactics", all aimed at covering up and cleaning up what was done in 1915.
For once the Turkish government is being honest when it says, about the RoA Constitutional Court (CC) opinion, that: "The said decision undermines the very reason for negotiating these Protocols as well as their fundamental objective"!
Of course it does as the "very reason...as well as the fundamental objective" of the Protocols is the unconditional and total surrender of Armenia as a vanquished nation! The RoA CC, no doubt influenced by the mass opposition to the Protocols by all sections of the worldwide Armenian community, has clarified and narrowly defined the terms of the Protocols in order to limit the potentially grave dangers emanating from them which threaten many aspects of Armenian national interest.
Not surprising therefore that the Turks are now complaining: "Foul! We don't like the way you are playing this Protocol game"!
Why did so many Massachusetts-Armenians including myself vote for the Republican US Senate candidate Scott Brown?
Because, we are primarily frustrated with President Obama breaking his pledge to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, and the White House decreasing US aid to Armenia.
Our votes will deprive Obama and his democratic party the critical 60 votes in the Senate for a filibuster.
Is the ADL, or the ANC for that matter, concerned about the anti-Armenian climate in Israel?
Hmm, "this kid" is always a great way to start a dialogue! You said a little more than what I did in your first half of the post, but I'm a little confused why you think I fall into the "camp of those little minds, including unfortunately Armenian ones, that bemoan the loss of the Ottoman Empire, a corrupt, murderous and violent state where Armenians and non-Turkish minorities were tolerated at best as long as they agreed to recede into ignorance and submission"?
Anybody who is semi familiar with my work and my knowledge of Armenian history knows my views are nothing like that. But if you weren't familiar (as you clearly aren't), all you would have to do is read my 2nd most recent post where I explicitly state: "The Dashnaks did they best they could in 1919. Sure, they ate before the population did (as do politicians everywhere), but I don’t believe had the Hnchaks or Ramgavars been in power they would’ve been the saints they think the Dashnaks should’ve been" and "Ironically enough, the Dashnaks of 1919-1923 behaved quite like the Ter-Petrosyan of 1991-1997. Only to be ousted by scum dressed in the clothing of liberty, offering 'something better.'" I am not "rabidly anti-Dashnak" -- nor do I understand why people speak like this. Anti-Dashnak? You mean...I disagree with their current policies...you don't hear people saying someone is "anti-Republican" -- it's almost a dull point. In fact, if you go to the comments of my last article -- I address this strange obsession Dashnaks have with the past and how they use the memory and the achievements of great people like Armen Garo and Garegin Njdeh to propell their current insincere and dead-wrong policies forward. It was actually addressed to Mr. Manooshag, who, after being scolded by a contributor to this paper, apparently still hasn't understood anything. If the article came off as "anti-Dashnak" ... saying it was so is not an insult...that was the whole point. It was SUPPOSED to be anti-Dashnak. Contrary to the big assumptions you made Kevork jan, I am quite fond of the ARF government of the First Republic -- and I reserve my greatest scorn for their contemporary opponents -- like Boghos Nubar Pasha.
I never tried to suggest that the Armenians caused the rise of the Young Turks -- that is an ignorant view of history. The rise of the CUP had much more fundemental and complex reasons. The Armenians, did, no doubt, help. But that's not really a point of critcism that I want to get into right now, especially because it wasn't an exclusively Dashnak enterprise, and especially because the Western Bureau opposed it.
What I was trying to do however was make an analogy between the fall of LTP and the rise of Kocharian (fall of the Sultan rise of the Young Turks). It is a reference to Vartan Petrsoyan's famous satire skit. It's wonderful actually, you should watch it (hope you understand Armenian).
All you had to do was look at my recent comments Kevork jan to know that none of what you said is true. Many people in the ARF community oppose me because they are ignorant of the facts -- not only about LTP but about their own party. Many more know the truth, yet oppose me for propaganda reasons. But you'll be happy to know that you have none of these issues -- your problem is much more simpler, easy to fix. All you have to do is learn how to read better!
Avetis, are you suggesting an all out war against AIPAC and American Jewry?
The ARF in Armenia is regarded as a washed-up group of opportunists who were in bed with the ruling regime for years and who turned the back on the people after the fraudulent elections of 2008.
Try as you wish, the facts speak for themselves....
Hike was a giant in RI wrestling, and I'm proud to have wrestled under his tutelage. The personal extras he provided to me and my brothers, and all "his boys" made all the difference. His impact on me, and many hundreds - even thousands - of others, was immeasureable; he'll be missed personally and professionally!
A sincere question for the Jews and Israelis who have posted above:
What can or will Israel (and Jewish American lobbying organizations) do to strike back at Turkey?
What leverage exists? What will happen? Will the military and economic relationship between the two countries remain intact no matter what happens on the rhetorical level? Or will even the military and economic relationship crumble? (I myself believe that Israel and Jews can totally crush Turkey if they so desire.)
Don't confuse "politics" with reality. Politics is different, it is the "marriage of two people who don't necessarily love each other," whereas "reality, the Armenian Genocide" is real, it happened and there is no need for the Armenians to prove it.
As for what can Israel do? What contingency plans does Israel have? Well, you know the long arm of Israeli justice. If Turkey one day decides to hurt Armenia in any shape or form, they will be in for a big surprise.
The relationship between Israel and Turkey is complex. We know that Muslim Turks have no love for Jews. We are not stupid, if need be, we can even bring Erdogan to Israel to face trial in an Israeli court. All I can tell the Armenians is this: Israelis and Jews all over the world know the truth about the Genocide, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the notion that "Armenians might hijack our standing in the world as victims of Genocide," that notion is ridiculous, since every man, woman and child on planet earth know that the Genocide happened first. You should understand that Israel, alongside the USA are watching every step this Islamist terrorist government is undertaking. Israel, can and will protect all and every single Jew in the world. I don't need to brag or get arrogant here.
All I can say is this: ADL does not represent 15 million Jews worldwide. Besides, what they think about the Genocide is trivial and really don't matter.
I have noticed lack of political acumen amongst a good part of Armenians posting here and on other forums. Some Armenians were violently attacking Kurds, for example, Kurds who were showing support for the Armenian cause. Some Armenians were attacking Jews, some even blaming Jews for the Genocide. Some, even went further and started showing anti-Jewish and pro-Aryan attitudes. Why??? Why fight 100 wars at the same time? Why can't Armenians be shrewd and savvy politicians like the Turks?? It is just an unsolved mystery. Look at Islamist terrorist erdogan, he slammed and betrayed Israel on so many occasions, but then they turn around and call us "friends."
You need to unite like us. The reason we have power, prestige and sow fear in the heart of our enemies, is because.........you guessed it right, WE ARE UNITED. We help each other, every Israeli soldiers life is worth 100 trillion dollars, and we go all the way to save every captured soldier, sooner or later.
If Armenians only united, just once in your history, UNITE just once, is this too much to ask for? You are a small nation, around 2.7-3 million Armenians in Armenia, and it boggles the mind the divisions amongst all. It is scary. Imagine if Israelis were like you, the Arabs would have finished us off 100 years ago. UNITED WE ARE, so DIVIDED THEY BECOME.
I love the Armenian people, and I beg you to put your differences aside and UNITE, just once, bring honor and respect to your greatest king, Tigranes II, who so much loved and respected us Jews.
G-d bless Armenia.
Avi
Avetis
There is no anti-Armenian climate in Israel, however there is pro-Turkish political need. If you're talking about LOVE between Israel and Turkey, there is none. If you think Israelis hate Armenians, they don't. It is all politics my friends. It is time that Armenia established a University which is completely dedicated to prepare the future politicians of Armenia. There is so much emotions running around here and overcoming the need to act prudently.
Do what erdogan does, KILL YOUR ENEMY, and then GO KISS AND MAKE UP WITH THEM.
Politics never changed, learn from this Islamist terrorist erdogan.
It encourages me that there is a strong enough faction of integrity and responsibility in Turkey to accomplish this change.
I am just an ordinary citizen, Jewish with Armenian relatives. I have been following the news on Armenia, Turkey, and Israel only since 2006.
You might look for the answers to these questions yourself. I read the Turkish, Armenian and Israeli news online everyday.
I like to study people, as in psychology and sociology. I did read an interesting article by a Serb about political science. He said that laws come into being when people decide they should be. He also said that politicians are sometimes no different than criminals. Sometimes they protect the people from criminals, and sometimes they are the criminals hurting the people.
So maybe the govt. and the people sometimes differ. The govt. will have one policy, and the people may feel another way.
So are you asking what can be done to change the policy of governments? Or asking also, should we consider changing the public opinion of ordinary citizens (this is also known as propaganda, and can be used to turn public opinion, unfortunately, often in the wrong way). For instance, I think Israel is concerned that they are losing the public opinion because of their policy in Gaza. One article in Haaretz said, while we may maintain ties with the Turkish govt., it was more important to keep relations with ordinary Turks and fight antisemitism, which Israel may be losing. You can see, our governments' policies re: Turkey cause a lot of resentment among the Armenians. I personally thought it was wrong for the ADL to get involved, and wrong for Gephardt and Hastert to take money from Turkey. I can only tell them so and I have.
I had to study this problem a lot to understand the history. I did notice the American Jewish Committee has issued a lot more pro-Armenian opinions in Haaretz, and even published an article here condemning the spitting upon Armenian clergy in Jerusalem. I don't know if this pro-Armenian attitude came about because they are disgusted with Erdogan and his calling Gaza a genocide; and/or they are learning more about the Armenian genocide, which they didn't know much about. I guess once you make them aware of a problem, they may act upon it. For instance, if you educate them about the nature of Turkish prejudice against minorities, and go to some of their annual meetings to talk and meet people, you may make some progress.
For instance, the last annual meeting of the American Jewish Committee included a speaker from Azerbaijan. I am sorry to say I did not attend . There are a lot of Jews in Azerbaijan, not only Turkey. So while there are some Jews from Armenia living in Israel, there are more from Azerbaijan and Turkey; however, even more from Russia. Half of Israel now comes from Arabic lands, where they were expelled, treated badly and lost their property. They too want reparations from these arab countries. I don't know how this will affect public opinion in Israel, because you see Jews come from many countries in Israel. I don't know enough about the public opinion going on there to help you. I have relatives living in Israel, but I am not familiar with what is going on other than what I read in the paper.
I don't know if this post helped you at all.
You can meet with and/or write to Jewish organizations. I did mention that Ze'ev Elkin has an Armenia-Israel friendship group in Knesset. You can email him; he said last Apr. 24, his email box was empty, so people are not writing him to recognize the Armenian genocide and he was surprised. Where are your letters? You can write to Ze'ev and ask him your questions about Israel; go there and meet and talk to him. I am sure he will answer your questions, and he is not afraid to stand up to Turkey.
You said Obama has not made you happy with his policies. Of course, your groups are a lobby, voting and endorsing and trying to influence candidates, just as Jewish groups do. You can keep writing your representatives and voting for ones you like. Get involved with politics.
You might ask, what can the Armenian lobby do?
I don't want to answer the last questions here now; my opinion is not an expert opinion; which you should seek out.
Hye, Jews have their reparations, which brought their Genocide towards a closure....
Yet, Jews, in Israel and in the USA do not allow the USA House and Senate give this same to the
genarations since the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation... Morally, as the Jews claim to be,
yet still interfere in another's Genocide recognition efforts. Why? Manooshag
Manooshag: I agree, Armenians need to get their reparations and Germany did make reparations to the Jews.
Did you know that there are other Jews, who came from the arab countries (many to Israel), who were expelled, property taken from them, and they did not get reparations. When Israel became a nation, the arab countries, with whom they lived together as friends for thousands of years, just threw them out.
I want to ask Ferhat, in Kurdistan: there are only 10 Jews left in Iraq. Chalabi saved some ancient Jewish manuscripts, but wants them back. Will they save and love them the way we do? Can we keep them? The Iraqis are building a mosque over an ancient Jewish monument to the Prophet Ezekiel, I believe, and the fundamentalists are destroying the ancient Jewish monuments in Iraq. I read stories everyday about an Iraqi Jew who was mentally damaged and lives in a small room in Israel, with no hope of reparations from Iraq. So we are dealing in reparations from arab and muslim countries, who are not European.
Jews were expelled from Libya and all their property confiscated. They are trying to deal with Kadafi, a dictator, to get some things back. So the problem is that after arab nationalism, Turkish nationalism, dealing with totalitarian countries, what can you get back?
Jews went to Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia to escape the Inquisition. Some of those countries used the Jews as intermediaries; today these muslim countries have educated people and don't need intermediaries. So although some Jews may live there today, they are no longer intermediaries.
Can the Jews expelled from arab countries even hope to get reparations back? I will work for them.
The Armenians, it seems, are the victims of real politik. What would happen if Obama did use the word "genocide" and not veto the genocide bill? Maybe nothing. So it is up to you to convince him. President Reagan almost passed it; so maybe all the arguments being spinned are not true; and passing the bill won't hurt our ties with Turkey. It is a matter of lobbying for this bill and getting your way; and working with Jewish groups. If you read a lot of these forums, you will see you have a lot of Jewish supporters, but policy is in the hands of the government. So lobbying the government is the problem; you can see Turkey has a lobby (and I did not think ADL should have been a part of it; and many Jews have criticized them).
Freedom of speech means you can petition the govt. If politicians do things because they are getting money, but not out of moral conviction, that is doubly wrong. Gephardt was paid a million dollars a year; Hastert took $500,000 for the Republican Party from Turkey. I wouldn't vote for these two guys, but they are not even part of the political scene today. Abe Foxman made his own problems up there in Massachusetts; he doesn't speak for all of us (you have to ask Foxman why he is doing what he is doing).
Turkish PM Erdogan Warns Armenian Court Ruling Could Derail Protocols (Hurriyet)
If Armenia really wants a way out of bankruptcy, isolation, hardships, corruption, violence, and poverty, the protocols offer a golden opportunity. Armenia's government should treat this unexpected "kiss of life" from Turkey with utmost respect, without trying to dilute and modfy their content and scope via thinly veiled bureaucratic tricks, as no one is being fooled.
Armenia, with its wishy-washy approach to protocols is forcing the limits of patience. Armenia should show sufficient political will (by approving the protocols after making a positive move in Karabakh) and be rewarded for it; or stay the old course and be relegated to a distant and irrelevant province of Russia.
Well said Genocide Denial.
When people, Kurds, good Turks and Jews offer their hand of friendship, please accept the offer, instead of attacking and humiliating them . How will Armenia build friendship with different peoples if everytime a Jew or a Kurd or a good Turk say something, they are attacked. I believe it was Ferhat who said that "you alone cannot win this battle, we need to be united, Jew, Armenian, Kurds and Turks who had it with their denialist government.
Listen, Azerbaijan invests 1-10 million a year buying lobbyists. Armenia(ians) do nothing. Can Armenia(ians) spare $200,000 hiring one lobbying group in Washington? Of course you can. I am not ashamed to say that Israel too has its lobbyists. You need an American firm to lobby for Armenia. Don't sit there and complain. And here in Israel, you have friends in the Knesset, but Armenians are oblivious to the situation here, no one contacts your friends in the Israeli Knesset. Come on, wake up and start to work. All I can do is vote for a Knesset member who knows and wants to propagate the truth about the Armenian Genocide. The rest is up to you, you are wasting your friendship with Israeli Knesset members.
Listen, I honestly don't give a horses a-- about ADLs/AIPACs attitude towards the Genocide, they don't represent all Jews. Some in there are paid by the Turkish government (remember the words: Paid, Bought, Hired etc etc). It is high time Armenians wake up and face reality. If you don't do your homework, you fail, it's that simple.
Why is it hard to convince Armenians to play politics (dirty or not) and start hiring Washington lobbyists. Gephardt and Hastert will sell their wives, daughters and mothers for the almighty dollar. If they can be bought, trust me there are 100 waiting to be hired(bribed, paid) and they will do the job. Even if you pay Gephardt $500,000 now, the guy has no morals and he will fast fall into the Armenian side...just like that.
OK please don't attack me for being brutally honest. remember Armenia(ians) lack political savvy and I understand the reasons( a new nation, young democracy etc etc), but start doing what Turkey does today, and you will gain tons of friends tomorrow.
I love Armenians, I feel their pain and honestlyam doing my best to teach my friends about your people. But stand up like one man, you cannot have a strong country while divided. Do what your great King Tigranes II did. He got tired of Armenian Nagharars petty squabbles and swiftly eliminated them, and THEN Armenia became strong and prospered. What Armenia needs is a new Tigranes II to unite Armenians.
I love Armenia and Armenians.
Avi
PS: Before I forget, Abe Foxman is paid, read it here, paid by the Turkish government in millions of dollars. This guy has no moral or ethical standards. Now is the time that you too, Armenians do the same. You can buy people too, everyone is for sale, trust me. This unfortunately is world business as usual.
Look, my Armenian friend Vazken keeps glorifying my Jewish people, that how united we are, how powerful we are, that no one messes with Israel...He is absolutelyright. How about Armenia and Armenians, when will you be united like a strong oak tree? When?
Manooshag
Oh my G-d, I wished you understood what propels Israel and the ADL and the AIPAC to vote for Turkey...it is a complex and very intricately woven relationship. It will end soon, but for now, instead of attacking Israel, try to make friends with Israelis and Jews worldwide. Look what erdogan is doing: Humiliating Israel, then kissing up to us, then going to a Muslim country and humiliating us again, then calling our Ehud Barak and apologizing...Smart, very smart. Learn from them, please learn from them.
Trust me dear Armenians, it is not hard to build a rock solid friendship with Israel and world Jewery. You see how fast Armenians fell for this ridiculous "Jewish complicity in the Genocide" garbage? And who told Armenians about this? None other than Turks. Are you telling me that everything happening in this world is the "insider job of the Jew?" The only strategic concern of world Jewery and Israel is the "Safety of every single Jew whether living in Israel or abroad, period."
Other than that, what you hear from Turks is total rubbish. It was the Turks who committed the Genocide, period. For Turks, there are Jews hiding in their Turkish delight sweets. During WWII, Himmler reported that a Field marshal, and 15 high ranking generals were of Jewish decent, plus about 200 blond, blue eyed Jews who saved their skin by serving in the SS death troops. Now, are you going to tell me that the murder of 6 million Jews was the result of these Jews who served Hitler? OK, if a a Islamized Jew served in the Ottoman government, does that mean that the :JEWS DID IT?" These are all small tricks done by the Turk to confuse Armenians worldwide, its like "taking the monkey from their back, and throwing it on our." Don't fall under the category of peoples who erroneously think that there is a Jewish conspiracy everywhere in the world. Let us be real.
G-d bless Armenia
Avi
Friendly advice to "robert":
Why don't you retire where that most infamous high priest of Turkish Denialsm has been disposed of for a couple of years now - yes Yusuf Halagoglou the head of "Turkish Historical Society" or "Turkiya Tarikhi Jamiaeti" - translation, Wholly Discredited (now almost fully bankrupt and insolvent!) Turkish Lie Factory for Fabrication, Production and Worldwide Export of Fables and Lies about Turkish History in general and the Armenian Genocide in particular!
As most people even inside Turkey know this state institution for production of state ideology and state ordered history (costing millions of dollars) had to be protected from its very inception by infamous 301 and other punitive laws forbidding free and independent inquiry of academic as well as journalistic nature into Turkish history in general and Armenian Genocide in particular.
There are signs (as Halagoglou's dispatch for example shows) that the walls of this fortress of lies are beginning to crack and collapse. And well done to Aram Hamparian for a masterpiece, tracing the progress of this Turkish collapse from its genesis to its present crumbling state.
No let up until Turkish ultra-nationalist racist ideology of Turkism with all its rotten components, just like its counterparts in Nazi Germany and South African, namely Nazism and Apartheid ideologies and regimes, is disposed of for good in the dustbin of history.
That day is very near! Amen!
I wonder how many dashnaks were in the crowd? But much more importantly, after Dink's death, many thousands of Turkish mourners gathered to pay their respects in Istanbul. Now, there are still thousands who came out on the anniversary of his death. They also renamed a street after him. My question then is simply this...How many Armenians in Yerevan, Armenia come out to mourn the deaths of the innocent Turkish diplomats, their families, and the innocent civillians murdered world-wide by Armenian terrorist groups, on the anniversary of their murders? I've been watching the world news daily and have yet to see a single Armenian come out and pay their respects...NOT A ONE!! Why do you all think that is? Gee, could there really be a DOUBLE STANDARD at work here? A Turk's life, or the life of any Muslim, simply has no value or meaning. Is this what all of you folks are thinking (we already know that many of you say it openly)? This is why I'm asking, because I really would like to know the answer. I don't know myself. I await a response from any of you who might be able to help me find the answer. Thank you.
Well, well, well...I see that once again my posts have not been posted and have beed deleted! To the members of the editorial board, let me ask you all a very simple question...How would you like it if you took the time and effort to compose an informative, well thought out post, without any vulgarity, expressing your sincere opinion and trying to share it with others, and then some editorial board comes along and deletes your work in a brazzen show of censorship? I doubt if you'd be very estatic! It's sad really, to see just how insecure you all are on that board. It's hard to picture people who are so worried about the possibility of the truth coming forth that they'd stoop so low journalistically to resort to total censorship! I can guarntee that if you were to post something on a Turkish site, your post would be up and remain there for however long the site is up and running. There won't be any blatent censorship as is found on this site! Oh well.
That sign is not going to last long. Barabarians love stealing Armenian signs. Correction, they love stealing anything Armenian. From San francisco to Philadelphia to Lyon and beyond. Let's watch and see how long it will take for this sign to disappear.
Robert (Mehmet, Alpaslan, Kemal whatever your real name is), you are DEAD WRONG.
I have tried to go on turkish webs and talk about the plight of my Kurdish people, and for some "out of this world" reasons, most of my posts were deleted, because I was asking, quite respectfully, the illegal occupation of my country.
What you wrote here Kemal, was a blatant lie my friend.
Sorry, gone are the days when you manipulated everyone with lies and innuendos mixed with killings and Genocides.
Ferhat
Hye, my question stands - still: Why do Jews in USA and Israel interfere with another nation, in the USA Congress, the House of Representatives and the Senate? Armenians, who suffered the first Genocide of the 20th century - whose perpetrator Turks
were not brought to justice - yet and the Jewish Genocide and many more Genocides followed....
these shall never have happened if the guilty Ottoman Turk their subsequent leaderships were brought to face their guilt for the crime of Genocide... As I see it, morally, the Jews shall have been with the Armenians rather than played all the games with a Turkey. But that was morally...
Robert(Mehmet, Kemal or whatever your real name is) READ, YOUR ANSWER LIES HERE!!!
Here, once again you tried to humiliate one particular Armenian party, the only one who really is fighting for the Genocide recognition. The Dashnak party was our "Worthy" adversaries in the 1900s. They did not stab us on the back, the way kemal did. They fought face to face..unlike your kemal, who came in the middle of the night arrested 1000s of men and executed them. It does not really matter how many times you humiliate the Dashnaks, I'll tell you one thing: They all were/are honorable people. Not one of their fighters abused our women or children, unlike your murderous kemalists.
Did they pull your post? No.
And don't go into the "Muslim" trick here. We know how pious Turks are. Unfortunately the whole world is seeing your colors. When it fits you, you use religion..and all the while we too are Sunni Muslims. So, that did not win you any Muslim friends here.
Just get out of occupied lands and accept your grandfathers complicity in the murders of 2 million innocent Armenians.
Armenia Weekly: Do not fall for kemals tricks. We learned their tricks long time ago. Nothing informative he wrote here in his post. Quite possibly a Turkish intelligence officer trying to belittle and humiliate the whole Armenian nation. And if you read his other posts, he keeps throwing the word "Dashnak" quite often. Their aim is simple, and they will win, if you fall in their trap. What I learned recently from a Kurdish friend living in Ankara, is that: Turks will try their best to form a distance between the Dashnak party and the rest, that way they can weaken Armenia.
What this turk wrote here amounts to nothing but Garbage.
These are the grandchildren of the killers of freedom loving peoples.
Ferhat
Someone asked what leverage Israel has over Turkey? The truth is that as an individual country Israel is more powerful than Turkey, but Israel has few allies other than the U.S, and even within the U.S there are pockets of people who hate Israel because supporting Israel is a redflag for many Muslims (whose wrath some justifiably will do anything to avoid). In reality, most Jews don't feel much leverage, and I don't say this to be self-pitying, but the international climate isn't very encouraging. But right is right. The Armenian Genocide was a disaster and a horrific crime against humanity. I'd be happy to have people hate us if we always took the moral stance, but given the ADL's position, it certainly feels like we are bending over backwards to be allies with a powerful country whose people hate our guts and are morally bankrupt to start. And in the process the ADL is doing something very immoral by trying to placate them (this is of first and foremost importance); any country worth forming an alliance with would have no issue with transparency about their history.
I understand some of the negative comments, as I would have trouble keeping my cool as well, but remember that political groups, particularly ones run by zealots such as Abe Foxman are only self-serving. He probably can't sleep at night without thinking about who he's going to write an angry letter to or who he's going to try to be nice to for us to be more popular. Peace and shalom!
BTW there is a great need for more scholarship on the Armenian Genocide, including books and film; and nobody understands the significance of this forgotten history better than the Armenians.
That was a nice irony and contrast, Ergenekon to Hrant. It is not the only street to be named after an Armenian hero in Istanbul by the way. Wonder how many such streets exist in Erivan.
The reason why Armenians in Yerevan didn't come out to mourn the deaths of Turkish diplomats is because they didn't know about it. Yerevan was subject to Soviet media censorship and thus all talk about genocide were censored. That is the technical answer to your question. If you're looking for something more, here it is...
The Armenians of Istanbul came to mourn those Turks murdered in the 70s and 80s. That would be a more appropriate analogy than the ignorant one you tried to make. If an Azeri or Turk was murdered in Yerevan for...let's say national reasons...I no doubt believe Armenians would come out to mourn for him.
In fact I remember there was an Azeri living in my town in the early 90s when war broke out -- a mob gathered outside of his apartment, asked him to come down, pack his things, and leave. I'm pretty sure the Armenians of Baku and Sumgait weren't given that option. Or better yet, I'm pretty sure the Armenians in Istanbul of the 60s weren't given that option. Why didn't Turks come out to mourn them? Or better yet -- why didn't Turks just simply not murder and rape these people so that none of us had to do any "mourning." Armenians live in fear in Turkey, the same way people did under Saddam Hussein. They'll say everything is nice and fine because to do otherwise would be to upset what one Turkish-Armenian friend called the "delicate balance of peace" in Turkey.
"A Turk’s life, or the life of any Muslim, simply has no value or meaning." Anybody concerned with the "value of life" in Turkey should be doing his utmost to make their government change its views on the Armenian genocide. To focus on petty and random acts of murder and revenge killings in the midst of such an overwhelming atrocity is insincere and pathetic.
Anyway, this is a bogus issue. The few Turks in Istanbul (and Istanbul as a whole) are quite unrepresentative of the rest of the Turkish population. At worst they are called traitors, at best they are used by people like you to shift the focus from a massive campaign of MURDER and GENOCIDE to random acts of violence in the 60, 70s and 80s (which are still no match for the random acts of violence against Armenians in the same time period).
And if you're wondering how many "Dashnaks" were in the crowd -- I doubt that many. The ARF barely registers any activity in Istanbul.
I think we should try to change that -- in the same way there were secret Dashnaks (or sympathizers) in Armenia during the Soviet Union, I think they'll be people willing to listen in Istanbul. Yalla!
Robert, any denial of the Armenian genocide is highly offensive to Armenians -- and in fact is more offensive than "vulgarity." I suspect there was some genocide denial in your post...was there?
Only myths need such elaborate protection. As nationalist as Halacoglu was, and no point denying it, I do not recall anything he stated being proven false. He did not fabricate stuff, those were not "his" truths. On the other hand, one can point to every aspect of the Armenian genocide myth and find distortions, fabrications and blatant lies. That is the truth.
I have observed over the years how the Armenian discourse over this issue changed and adapted as more light was shed over the historical facts and figures and more non-Armenian academics delved into the archives and looked at some real facts for a change. Undfortunately one can not fight myths with facts.
Renaming a street in Istanbul after the victim of a brutal ultra-nationalist assassination will not deter similar future acts of terrorism by Turkish extremists. Bringing the perpetrators of such heinous crimes to justice and holding them accountable for their actions may be more effective in preventing its recurrence.
Don't patronize me or any Armenians with feel good stunts of 'DOLMA DIPLOMACY' like this. What a joke! Renaming a street by the murdered victim will not help stop the murder of people like him from continuing. Bravo Zorab, you hit the nail on the head!
What would be more constructive is if the group "Art for Peace" instead sent a signed petition on behalf of their membership demanding their government revoke Articel 301 that actually helped target people like Hrant Dink.
It's simply somebody's joke, please relax
Murat,
There are plenty of streets in Yerevan named after Armenians heros. We have plenty of heros. In Constantinople there is a street named after one turkish "hero" talat pasa. We all know what "heroic" deeds he had done for his country and humanity: war, genocide, pestilence and famine. Here is one the turks cant top, the last canonized saint of the Armenian apostalic church was a turk. He was mudered by mohamedeans on easter 1438 in erzurum. You are not here for dialog, you are here as a turkish propagandist.
Just a minute, Robert: you claim, (I quote you) "I can guarntee that if you were to post something on a Turkish site, your post would be up and remain there for however long the site is up and running. There won’t be any blatent censorship as is found on this site!" (end quote)
Go on the internet and find out how many web sites it is claimed Turkey has shut down completely. There is no point in talking about (quote) "however long the site is up and running," (end quote) if the site is not up and running at all!
How many Turkish authors have been charged under article 301 for "insulting Turkishness"? Ever heard of Orhan Pamuk? Heard of Elif Shafak?
How many Turkish intellectuals have been shut up when using the big G word as it relates to the Armenian Genocide?
Have you ever heard of Hrant Dink?
Welcome to the real world.
Is the Turkish state going to use Hrant Dinks name on a sign post as a tool of propaganda to placate anger over his murder or will it be used by Turkish tour guides to fool unwary tourists about their so called kindness to Armenians???
Armenians are not looking for the recognition of our martyrs on street corners. We are demanding justice for the cold blooded murder of our 1,500,001 martyrs.
who is making the assumption that armenians are homogeneous people, we are what america is going to become a few hundred years from now after all its citizens mix evenly, look at the blond asian in california now, wait until they marry blacks and see what the next generation is going to look like, and continue this mix for a few hundred years...if you still don't believe me just look at the physical manifestation of each one of us, some of us look asian, some look semitic (including african), some look caucasian and some look nordic, just review our history and all the conquests of our nation, all the armies that passed through, do you not think that each left its genetic deposits???
i am of mixed blood each one of my parents looks different, my father looks like a reddish/olive skin roman, and my mother looks like a white skin polynesian, and me, well people have difficulty identifying my roots, one of my brothers is blue eyed blond (germanic blood runs in both side of my parents) and the other one with dark eyes and auburn hair... my point is that no matter what i am genetically, i am armenian, i feel armenian, and i haven't been to what's left of our great nation, nor do i belong to any armenian organization, i have lived in the diaspora all of my life and after almost 5 decades i can speak better armenian that any armenian who recently emigrated from armenia, even if i leave the planet and colonize mars (god willing), i am an armenian not for the love of present day armenia alone but because i love being armenian, so what is it , or who is armenian, the answer is, anyone who continues the traditions, helps and improves armenian interest, and is willing to defend it with with all they have
I really don't understand why the Armenians are so obsessed with calling anyone opposing their views as Turks or Turkish government employees, as Ferhat does when he questions Robert's identity. Why is it so hard to accept the POSSIBILITY that Robert is indeed Robert?
The article missed the most important quotation from Arat Dink's speech: "100 years ago, we were the preys, now we have become baits." He was referring to the plans of the Ergenekon terror organization to attack the Armenians, put the blame on the Islamist AK Party government and cause its downfall.
The strengthening of democracy and civil society in Turkey is the best hope for all the peoples of the Middle East.
I wrote this letter to Amnesty International to stop torture.
______________________________________________
If President Obama cannot recognize First Genocide (1915-1923),
The slayers will never stop will continue slaying the innocents.
The seed of slaying started from that date
And will continue till the world end.
He should not listen to any other than
His clever Hearted-Mind.
Can vanish the Slaying Genes.
Every honest educated human know Obama.
He can achieve impossible tasks.
With his real 'Talented- Kind' genes.
Hey Murat,
It seems you have some real problem in observing "change over the years", as you put it. Otherwise how could you have failed seeing the fact that so many governments and parliaments, scholars, academic institutions including the EP, the Paris People's Tribunal, International Association of Genocide scholars, etc. etc, even growing number of Turkish intellectuals, have acknowledged, or are acknowledging, the fact of the Armenian Genocide?
It doesn't surprise me then that the shameful fabrications of a defunct and deposed historian like Halacoglu should be read by you as truth.
How disappointing to find such narrow minded people in our midst. These, coupled with those who have no idea of what life is like in Istanbul can pontificate right, left, and centre, and mix different issues instead of thinking in a lucid manner. Wake up friends! These are genuine outbursts of feelings of brotherhood, solidarity, and justice among the friends of Hrant in Istanbul, local Armenians and Turks alike, and it has nothing to do with the policies of the Turkish government.
Did you know that the Deputy Mayor of Sisli is Armenian and the most respected photographer of Istanbul is Ara Guler, another Armenian? Dino, could you please share the source of your Turkish Christian martyr? I'm sure many readers would love to know his name and so would the countless Turkish converts to Christianity today!
Well, you're right -- it is a weird thing to do. But I think it's a few people on the internet who are like that, the majority of the community isn't. And I don't think Fehrat is even Armenian...??
Let the death of idiotic and humiliating for Armenia protocols, the imposition of which both Serjik and his foreign minister had no guts to oppose, serve a good lesson to the current and future generations of Armenian leaders that, no matter what, it is the PEOPLE both in Armenia and the Diaspora, and not a bunch of unelected, unrepresentative, unpopular, corrupt and subservient rulers, who will decide the destiny of their Homeland.
Rest In Oblivion, protocols…
To George Isayan: Mr. Isayan, I could say one thing, that I now very well Mr. Payan, and I will tell you, that he is not with any political party, nor supports any of them!
Secondly, Mr. Isayan, I hope, that every well known Armenian like Ara Papyan, will do as he does and we will succeed in our DEMANDS FOR JUSTICE and HAY DAT!
Third point, I don't think you have done for Armenia 1% of what Mr. Ara Papyan have done. Do something for Armenia as an Armenian and then someone will at list say,that probably you are right! Prior to that, please, don't tell anything against any one, because that behavior have a clinical name "Jealousy over other person's success". As an Ambassador of Armenia in Canada, Mr. Papyan work very Hard to make sure, that Canadian Government and Members of Parliament will vote for Armenian Genocide recognition in 2006!!!
Mr. Ara Papyan is not only speaking against these unfortunate protocols, if you can see, clearly he is speaking for OUR RIGHTS OF ARMENIAN TERRITORIES, which is illegally usurped by turkey, georgia and azebaijan, and he is a HUGE ADVOCATE for Armenian Genocide recognition and HAY DAT! I know also very well, that in Armenia speaking out loud about all of these issues like he does is the same as speaking against entire CORRUPT oligarchic government of Armenia!!!
I'm PROUD TO KNOW a person like him, and be ARMENIAN. I hope every Armenian will be politically correct like him, to not let our enemy states BARK on Armenian regardless we like him or not. In my humble opinion, Armenians should stick together, and not be jelause of other Armenian Success and SUPPORT EACH OTHER like organized jewry does!!!
Let the death of idiotic and humiliating for the nation of Armenia protocols, the imposition of which both Serjik and his foreign minister had no guts to oppose, serve a good lesson to the current and future generations of Armenian leaders that, no matter what, it is the PEOPLE both in Armenia and the Diaspora, and not a bunch of unelected, unrepresentative, unpopular, corrupt and subservient rulers, who will decide the destiny of their Homeland.
Rest In Oblivion, protocols…
"i have lived in the diaspora all of my life and after almost 5 decades i can speak better armenian that any armenian who recently emigrated from armenia" a little bit of an exaggeration, no?
And I'm not sure if the article would disagree with "or who is armenian, the answer is, anyone who continues the traditions, helps and improves armenian interest, and is willing to defend it with with all they have."
Mehmet and Henry,
I agree. Mehmet brings up a good point. Henry, I don't know if you had a chance to read one of my other posts, but I echoed your sentiments, especially that we are in agreement about Fehrat. You see, I don't use any vulgarity or anything like that. I have an opinion just like everyone else, as well as questions which I pose to the site because I truly want to know. However, sometimes it's true that the editorial board chooses to delete some of my posts. If I were on an editorial board, I wouldn't delete anyone's post (unless they were spewing nothing but vulgar insults and swearing repeatedly...no one needs to be exposed to that). Anyway, that's just my two cents. And no, I'm not a paid agent, as I've been accused of wrongly so many times in the past. I'm just a regular person, no more and no less.
Sorry Noushig but as a citizen who was raised in Istanbul for 27 years and is a dear friend to Turks, Armenians and Kurds,I agree with the sentiments by Dikran and others. Before we can get to "genuine outbursts of feelings" by renaming street signs, Turkish courts need to genuinely address the legal matters of murder and freedom of speech first. In order for people to freely express their emotions of solidarity with other Turkish citizens of different ethnic groups they need to feel safe in opening up to one another without worrying about attacks by Ergenkon members. And currently they don't. Until courts don't take Turkey's problems more seriously, they can't expect its citizens to respect each others rights. A sad reality indeed.
Noushig, what you just wrote here was a little bit of the "skeptical nature." I will explain to you why...
Keep in mind that Turkey is trying to become a member of the EU. And such, they "see it politically wise" to name one street in Istanbul after assasinated journalist Hrant Dink. As for the "honest outpouring of affection" by Turkish intellectuals, I believe their sincerity regarding Hrant, but some are simply using the ocassion to win "freedom" from the brutal policies of sensorship imposed on all Turks. As for the Christian converts in Turkey, their number according to World christian Organization does not exceed 3,000. Wow, out of 60 million people 3,000 converts? And most, mind you, are Armenians whose greatparents were forcibly converted/Turkified.
Ferhat
Noushig,
The Turkish Christian martyr is St Yordanan bishop of Garin/Erzurum. He was martyred with great fanfare and as a public spectacle on Good Friday, 1182. To get more info you would have to consult the Patriarchate. If anyone does inquire, don't take no for an answer, no is an Armenian's favorite word. It would be a great thing if Armenians and Christian Turks in Istanbul can publicize through a feast day for him so as to bring the word of Christ to the mohamadean masses of Turkey. Also, it must be emphasized that every moslem in turkey comes from a Christian family historically and that their ancestors suffered for acknowledging Christ and gave in to conversion by physical or economic force.
As an example for you Noushig, Ajaria in Georgia, original homeland of Erdogan's family, was forceabily converted to islam in the 16th century and until 1990 was 70% moslem. In 20 short years with freedom of religion Ajaria is 65% Christian today.
February 3rd is St Blaise's feast day in the Catholic Church. St Blaise or in Armenian Sourb Barsegh was bishop in Sivas(Sebastia), Armenia and martyred in the 316 A.D.. Throats are blessed that day in church and any Christian can go to Church services and have their throats blessed. You dont have to be Catholic since it is a sacramental not a sacrament.
As a side note, since Pope John Paul II reached an acord with the Armenian church in the year 2000 I believe, Armenians and Catholics can recieve Sacraments from each others churches since the two churches are Apostolic.
There can be no peace without justice.
We are all Anatolians.
I think this news was really a joke, as Vahak stated rightly.
However, I have heard a rumor, and this rumor comes from an ethnic Russian friend of mine living in Vladivostok, that the former prime minister of Russia, was definitely and 100% of Armenian decent. The prime minister? KASYANOV(KASYAN)..if any of you still remember him.
Ferhat
To Gagik: I appreciate your passion in revering Papian, but you must have misread my post. On two occasions I’ve mentioned that ‘his observations were correct’ and ‘his arguments were well-founded’. I only referred to his personal features that people who knew him from his years of public service have pointed to. Specifically, that during his service in, as you said (and correctly so), ‘corrupt oligarchic government of Armenia,’ he rarely had spoken or acted against it because he understood that he’d lose lucrative positions he had held at the time. As for Genocide recognition by Canada, at his times as ambassador it was an official government policy of Armenia to pursue the issue of international recognition of Genocide and ambassadors, as conductors of government policy, were entrusted to fulfill it. We now know that influential Canadian Dashnaks were major driving force in pressing their government to pass the resolution. As for percentage of who did what for Armenia, there are many more hidden Armenians, my friend, who tend to avoid breast-beating, publicity, and image-making, and contribute to our cause calmly and without sick ambitions or hope for any reward. And, also as a part of your misreading of my post, I referred to ‘political forces’ not ‘political parties’ the voice of which Papian from time to time delivers to the world. Not being enlisted in a political party doesn’t necessarily mean that one cannot act on orders from certain political forces. I hope you’d agree.
Apres George jan. Well said.
Given these typically Turkish, i.e. cheap and easily detectable, political maneuvering with these hastily-cooked protocols, I think the time is nearing that Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh) be recognized as an independent entity, first by Armenia, then by Russia, and then by the rest of the international community. I also think that given the fact that Turkey will never change from being a Genocide-denier, fascist state with sick pan-Turkist ambitions, in April of 2010 the U.S. President MUST, as he promised to the world, use the Genocide word in his Annual Address to the Armenian People, a long-expected word that would adequately characterize the barbarism, humiliation and unspeakable pain that Turks have inflicted upon millions of Armenians, depriving them of their historical homeland in Western Armenia and systematically slaughtering and deporting en masse its inhabitants. Enough is enough!
To Scott Brown
Your name is Scott and you have Scottish genes.
Scottish Parliament recognized Armenian Genocide,
Do you think you will do?
Or you will gamble with our name!
Ho !
I just was thinking that "liking vine leaves stuffed with meat" or "lehmejoun" was enough to feel Armenian...
What a mistake !
[:-))))
An incredibly fascinating read. Thank you. We have made some inroads as a community but have much work still to do. We need to take on a "No community member left behind" approach.
Wow, great analysis Mr. Ohanian. A few things, if I may:
1) The ANCA is not a completely independent organization in the way AIPAC is. It is the political wing of the ARF. Thus, as I've discussed in length before, even though the vast majority of the community agrees with the ANCA's position on almost every Armenian issue, it does not identify with the ARF, and therefore, not with the ANCA. As you know, the Armenian American community has a long history of division, and those divisions have cemented over the years. This has become quite unhealthy for the organizations themselves because each generation essentially reproduces the power base of their respective "camp." They stopped competing with each other a long time ago, and have thus been allowed to excuse themselves when need be.
2) The AAA functions with the support of about 10 very wealthy individuals (out of which only a few care enough to make decisions and be involved). That is why the AAA can afford to be wrong on almost every issue but still remain as the more powerful, more wealthy lobby group. They also had a head start on the Dashnak community (see Vahan Cardashian vs. everybody else, in early 20th century). I'm not saying the ANCA is any different (I don't know enough to say so), but it is clear that they are more inline with the community at large, and their activism has a huge popular grassroots following (compared to the AAA, I mean).
3) These organizations have been unable to consolidate or attract any sizable amount of the immigrants from Armenia. "Hayastantsis" make up about 30% of the Armenian American community (the largest plurality perhaps) yet are the least politically active. Of course, each first generation is a-political, more concerned with acquiring wealth and establishing themselves before getting involved in the community, and people from communists countries in general have yet to fully grasp the concept of activism, but by in large, those who do have opinions and are involved see these two organizations as misguided and leading us in the wrong direction. Their inclusion into the Armenian American political landscape would mean some drastic changes in perspective and policy. Both of these organizations (with a few exceptions) have shied away from this portion of our community -- that is not how they have responded to the other waves of immigrants from the Middle East, etc..
4) Some of these things are changing, but a "fundamental" reform in the system would require a fundamental change in the Prelacy/Diocese system, and some other form of decision making that isn't controlled by the wealthy few who might put their business interests in Armenia ahead of our nation's interests (khntrem, AAA and board members vis-a-vis Protocols).
The truth is both the ANCA and the AAA have made big mistakes in shepherding our political aspirations and have shielded themselves from criticism by saying "shh we're doing important work: genocide recognition!" It is under their leadership, and their sympathetic counterparts in Armenia, that has lead us to this moment of crisis for our nation.
Despite their exaggerated and perceived differences, they have both never supported democracy in Armenia, they have never supported the will of the people in Armenia (not in 1988, not in 2003, and not in 2008), and have used (and antagonized) the Diaspora's mistrust of Armenia to garner support and enthusiasm and cover up their mistakes.
Did you guys see the latest numbers from the All-Armenia Fund? The Armenian American community gave LESS than Armenia did -- for the first time. A poor, landlocked, blockaded country, with huge unemployment numbers and about 30% of the population living in poverty, donated MORE than our entiiire community combined. And yet, neither of these organizations have done any soul searching, neither have offered us any real reason as to why all of these things are happening, and neither have addressed their past sins (the perquisite to any organization or person who wants to signal a change in direction and attitude).
Mrs. Titizian,
Don't compare North Korea's to Armenia's regime. It is insulting to North Korea.
"A substantial change could mean imitating the trend adopted in many developed countries, where the leadership of a political party facing a major defeat in national elections simply accepts the consequences of their collective failures and resigns from power or does not seek re-election—to pave the way for a new generation of leaders. Unfortunately, such a healthy process has not been adopted by Armenian political parties and organizations in Armenia or the diaspora."
I wanted to echo this statement. The community needs to realize that these organizations have CONTRIBUTED to the problems (Armenia's democratic standing, Protocols, schism between Diaspora/Armenia). And before people start chanting "Sergik heratsir" -- they have to see whether or not there's anybody within their own organization -- even as a symbolic gesture -- needs to "herana."
And lastly, your last sentence is not true. I'm quite sure ONE president of Armenia did resign, and kept his mouth shut for 10 years while his legacy and memory was destroyed. Do you see anybody at the ANCA, AAA, or Armenia's current government, resigning? Can we even IMAGINE such a scenario?
In comparing ANCA & AIPAC, a lot of the numbers mentioned are assumed as pointed out. One important factor to consider though is the % of the Armenians and Jews that are in the US and the reason & when they have arrived in this country. Most of the Armenians have left their country being fed up with the conditions of their homeland or are refugees & are more interested in making a living and can not help financially any political cause, even if they are interested in. The US Jewish community does not have this problem and they are very well established, can afford to help their political views with their financial support which translates into power to see that the organizations that they support act in a manner that they want.
Bottom line, when Armenians start to donate the sizable amounts required to influence political organizations is when one can see the change that everyone is looking for.
Mark Kirk has been very supportive over the years and is a serving member of the Armed Forces.
Armenians shouldn't read too much into such emotional stories that attempt to portray the misleading notion that Turkish society is changing for our betterment. Why? Because its BS. Is the renaming of this sign supposed to replace justice for Hrant Dink's murder or is it supposed to make Orhan Pamuk, Elif Shafak and Taner Ackam feel safe walking the streets of Turkey?
These types of emotionally laden news stories should be categorized under the news heading of Dolma Diplomacy.
I could foresee U.S. President Obama's failures 8 months ago (You can read my notes on that in the Obama-Armenia Webpages.) Now, Mr. Obama, I hope, shall understand and feel what means to deceive the Armenian Spirit and the price the Democratic Party has to pay! This is only the beginning and the heavenly powers as always are giving the chance -- not the mere American chance but the heavenly Armenian chance.
Which political group was founded by Ottoman Armenians? And why has it been discarded?
While the effort is commendable and offers some interesting insights, it is based on too many unknowns or assumptions: if 550,000 Armenians usually surf the Web, if a 20 percent of them is politically active is of critical importance. Inaccuracy in this regard calls into question the result: these unknowns are fundamental.
Without coming to the defense of organizations that indeed are resistant to change and mostly opaque to the outside world in the way they operate, the above analysis presupposes that they are actually doing something wrong, hence, if we follow this logic, the lack of participation. What if they are doing everything right but the demographics --in the broadest sense of the world: attitudes, education, world views, communication patterns among the youngest, political apathy, etc-- are changing faster than organizations can adjust. Some would even question the need for political parties in the Diaspora. Armenia is independent. Go there and run there for power. Here we need to organize communities and keep them alive, along with their clubs, schools, etc.
We are talking about the fourth generation after the Genocide and the asssimilation process is ruthlessly at work. Not even Armenians in leadership positions agree on what it means to be Armenian anymore. There is some talk in the States, among teachers of Armenian of all people, that Western Armenian is irredeemably doomed and why bother to keep it alive, since the Armenian is now "spiritual", whatever that means (whatever it is, every time I have asked I have failed to get a convincing answer, something acknowledged by those who propose it as well.) To some it means --no joking-- "cooking according to grandma's lahmejun recipes," to others it means liking Armenian parties (the fun ones, no the political ones), Turkey-bashing and that only unfortunately, which is something to be expected: since the most solid and rich connection to the Armenian identity is --after the family-- the language, the church and the culture and most of these people lack a connection to the latter three, unable to read Armenian literature or know what Armenia is about, they can express their Armenianness only in the most primal way: shouting slogans, revering the colors of the flag, saying that Armenians are the best people in the world, and such things you find among soccer fans, who basically root for a team because of a color and that only.
I wouldn't compare ANCA to AIPAC on website traffic. ANCA is more of a grassroots organization that's very active in community activism, whereas AIPAC, very closely involved in the lobbying activity, is more concerned with pressing the White House and Congress for the Israeli interests (rather than more broadly Jewish, from what I know).
I'm not sure people do not know about ANCA or its website. They can surely find it if they want to. Most Armenians know where our churches are. Nobody goes. The problem is deeper. As for change, yes, political parties should democratize urgently --even though I fear it's too little, too late--, and try to have broader appeal. Yet there is so much they can do. Even though the differences are substantial, it amounts to those who call for "changes" in the Armenian Church. Well, it can only change so much. No matter what one thinks about it, a church is a church, not a TV program fighting for rating, so those calling for changes will not be happy even with that, because they really don't care about what a church is.
The same with politics. By nature, politics are divisive: one takes sides, and in the end that's what counts. Why would you otherwise join a political party if it doesn't matter? Many Armenians of the newer generations would be reluctant to join a party or take sides, or even get involved in the kind of necessary activisim that ANCA carries out. Probably they just do not care, not because it's ANCA's fault but because they are simply not concerned with what ANCA does, no matter how well it does it, as it does indeed.
Robert,
There was an Istanbul Armenian who had set himself on fire to protest the assassinations.
You're playing games here. Why don't you look at how Turkish nationalism and superiority has treated Kurds and other minorities. Dersim and other massacres? Banning a language? And then criticizing Israel and China?
Note: I'm not defending Isreal or China in their treatment of various groups.
I mean no offense, guys, but haven’t ANCA or AAA, or possibly any other Armenian American organization, been created and are largely controlled by the US government? What’s the need for this article and comparisons contained in it, when many Armenian Americans know that neither ANCA nor AAA, while playing ‘ethnic’ on the outside, are essentially American organizations on the inside? Maybe that’s the major reason why 80% of Armenian Americans are not involved in or affiliated with them?
Sorry to hear of his passing-I did not know Val personally but was a close friend of his cousin Jack(Hashian)-and enjoyed his stories of his cousin Val. Orderar kezi
There was a binary choice in 1915. Armenian or Turkish genocide. You can blame us all you want for defending ourselves but we are not stupid. I am not happy about this but it is the existential truth. In any case Turkey will control the normalization process thank you very much.
Will Dr. Grigoryan include comments/opinion about Turkey, as a gesture of goodwill, returning Mt. Ararat to Armenians? With the emotion-filled symbolic value associated with this Mountain, the positive impact of such a giving will be immense and Turkey will steal the hearts of – I venture to say, all Armenians. The Mountain does no particular good to Turkey but it means a lot to Armenians.
To KO: This is no use, KO. Your barbaric forefathers representing Bloody Sultan Hamid government and Young Turks regime, as well as their successor governments, Genocide denialists, cannot hide from responsibility forever. If you believe in God’s justice, you will have to admit and apologize to Armenians for uprooting them from their ancestral lands on which they lived for millennia, long before your nomadic Seljuk tribes appeared spreading fire and swords over native inhabitants. The Genocide of Armenians was not a binary matter, it was a unilateral, government-authorized, targeted and deliberate mass murder of a large ethnic group. Who your forefathers were ‘defending’ them from? Unarmed, defenseless women, children and elders, whom your co-ethnics hung, burnt alive, raped, and took to the deserts en masse to face the most horrifying death of starvation? The World War One theatre was not in Western Armenia (as you now call it Eastern Anatolia), it was closer to the European landmass. If you think the Turks are not stupid do a little research of non-Turkish (and non-Armenian, if you like) historical, geographical, ethnographical sources, and I’m sure you will come to no other conclusion that 26 countries in the world, 44 states of the U.S., the European Parliament, the International Association of the Genocide Scholars, the leading historians, and international lawyers have: it WAS the act of Genocide and not an act of defense. This is the existential truth, and sooner or later you will have to admit it. If you don’t, this time the international community will make you to. You will have to pay in full for wiping off one of the most ancient civilizations that existed on the face of the Earth. And NO, Turks cannot control the normalization process, because too many external powerful forces are involved. But you may continue day-dreaming, one day you will face the harsh reality.
KO, you really have a binary brain: a neuron on the left, another on the right. Have fun.
100 ar hareur asiga makour mdadzelagerb m@n eh. Amenen lav pajhin@ hedevyaln er:
"We have to learn from others: the United States Armed Forces do not leave any soldier, dead or alive, behind. Israel has one captive soldier with Hamas, and they are raising hell to get him back. The issue holds a prime importance in their conduct of diplomacy to bring Shalit home. They are negotiating the release of a many Palestinian prisoners in return for the release of their one soldier."
===================================================================
Indeed, im undanik's MORTETSIN!
(my family tree)
- many beheaded or driven into deserts where, as Dr. Astarjian once wrote, "Caravans of camelas could not survive, let alone caravans of humans!"
75% dead
12.5% penniless refugees in foreign nation's orphanages
12.5% stolen by Turks, Kurds and Arabs!
(Forcibly changing religions of abducted children is Genocide by U.N. convention)
This article is a clear C G E major chord across the finely-tuned piano
with resonation that is neurally - pleasing
since it is ringing of something we rarely hear so loud and clear
. . . THE TRUTH!
100 ar hareur asiga makour mdadzelagerb m@n eh. Amenen lav pajhin@ hedevyaln er:
"We have to learn from others: the United States Armed Forces do not leave any soldier, dead or alive, behind. Israel has one captive soldier with Hamas, and they are raising hell to get him back. The issue holds a prime importance in their conduct of diplomacy to bring Shalit home. They are negotiating the release of a many Palestinian prisoners in return for the release of their one soldier."
===================================================================
Indeed, im undanik's MORTETSIN!
(my family tree)
- many beheaded or driven into deserts where, as Dr. Astarjian once wrote, "Caravans of camels could not survive, let alone caravans of humans!"
75% dead
12.5% penniless refugees in foreign nation's orphanages
12.5% stolen by Turks, Kurds and Arabs!
(Forcibly changing religions of abducted children is Genocide by U.N. convention)
This article is a clear C G E major chord across the finely-tuned piano
with resonation that is neurally - pleasing
since it is ringing of something we rarely hear so loud and clear
. . . THE TRUTH!
Frankly speaking, I don't give a damn...Yeah it could be a joke or even true, but who cares?....If u want to know y I don't care, read my comment above....Let people say what they want....I just dnt want people like this to come into my nationality....
ARMENIANS are different......This guy can't b one of us...he isn't worth it./....
KO, what exactly was this binary choice you speak of?
is it your contention that a Christian minority in a Muslim empire was going to carry out an act of Genocide?
How so exactly?
and if that is your contention once the Armenian leaders and military men were killed, what justifies annihilating women, children and elderly?
Were the Greeks and Assyrians in Eastern Anatolia also in on the potential Genocide against the turks?
It is a nice defense mechanism you have going on. "it's was either us or them" however that is not the case by a long shot..
Another phony "kind and generous" sounding turk. Just like talat pasha, who ordered the murder of Armenian writer Zohrab, the same Zohrab, who mind you saved talats life. Little kemal, prove to me that there is/was vulgarity in my posts...
Little kemal, your attack on the Dashnaks is/was unprovoked. Your government just assasinated Hrant Dink, and you've got the guts accusing Dashnaks?
Henry, do Not fall in the trap of this turk, who calls himself "robert."
If you believe his sincerity, you might as well pack your bags and move to Turkey and become one of them.
Remember, Tutkey has up(ped) its anti-Armenian rhetoric, the same erdogan whose pictures are on the web smiling and "graciously" sitting on the floor, infront of Afghan Islamist terrorist hekmetyar, it is the same terrorist symphatizer, who mind you came unashamedly on Charlie Rose's TV show, and without shame screamed in front of all TV cameras that the Armenian Genocide was a "LIE, CONCOCTED BY ARMENIANS, AND THAT THE GENOCIDE WAS A MYTH."
Never pay homage to the turk, never.
Read the posts of little kemal(robert) and mehmet. In one, they are arrogant and accuse the Dashnak party, the only party which has not succumbed under monumental turkish pressure. And then, they have a 180 degrees change of heart and attitude...suddenly they are conciliatory and friendly.
These are the same turks, who for the last 95 years and through brutal force, are succeeding to assimilate Kurds, they won't even allow our language to be thought in our schools.
Henry wake up, Random Armenian swiftly and quickly recognized this guys true intentions. This same little kemal(robert) WILL NOT HESITATE TO DRAW HIS SWORD AND SLAY YOU, if you give him the chance.
Living seperate from Turks have made some Armenians "gullible." DON'T. Listen from a Kurd who lived almost all his life with these Genocidal people.
If calling Turks Genocidal amounts to vulgarity, then accept your complicity in the wholesale murder of a whole Armenian nation. Then, I will apologize to the 60 million Turks.
If calling erdogan a terrorist symphatizer is called "vulgarity," why is that the US, Israeli and british intelligence had erdogan under their respective "terror list?" Surprised? Don't, the truth will hound every turk to the end of your lives.
Congrats to the people of Mass. You did the right thing.
Hye, had Ottomans and their subsequent Turkish leaderships been made to face their obviously vile
Genocide of the Armenian nation in the immediate years all the Genocides following in the 20th and now into the 21st century in Darfur (even now emerging against the Kurds) shall not have been.
Millions of innocents... slaughtered, kidnapped, raped and more... all emanating from the Turk mentality, sadly, into today. And, despots are free to commit these attrociites. For the world is not yet civilized enough to fight against those humans who seek to elimnate other humans for their own
goals. Animals kill only to gain food. The Turk killed to gain a ready-made nation for their hordes
from the Asian mountains - and evidently succeeded, politically. But morally, all across the lands of the Armenians lie the unburied bones of the Armenians slaughtered, starved and left to die. And yet, there is a watch from these unburied souls - waiting for the day the Turk shall be meted the justice which was denied to those the Turks who disemboweled, raped, and more and drove from their own land of Armenia. Manooshag
What a sweet natured mother she was.
Unfortunately the world is not civilized enough to put the slaughtering nations such as Turkey and Sudan to admit their atrocious deeds of killing millions of humans and then remunerate to the victims. And yes, justice will eventually prevail for the Armenians; because Armenias will not rest until the time that the souls of their martyrs have been rest in peace. The only way that can happen, is when the murderous Turkish government admits their killings to the Armenian people and then remunerate and give our lands back to the owners: the Armenians.
The event notice contains many pro-US/Armenian government phrases:
The signing of the protocols on the establishment of diplomatic relations and the development of bilateral relations between Armenia and Turkey have been hailed as a watershed event. After all, the relationship between Armenians and Turks has been one of the most hostile relationships in the world since at least World War I. Therefore, the signing of the protocols was bound to generate some significant reactions. This presentation will aim to understand the history of criticisms against normalization, current political shifts within the government of Armenia, and the prospects of the protocols’ success.
What are the co-sponsors thinking?
Do they want the anti-Armenian protocols to "succeed"? Do they want Armenians not to "criticize" against fake normalization and reconciliation with genocidal Turkey?
I will not be attending this event and will discourage others from attending as well.
Armenian Weekly (gently) removed my last post. OK, I promise to be "nicer" to these genocidal Turks.
KO, you sound highly educated intellectual using such intelligent sounding words to describe the wholesale slaughter of defenseless Armenian women and children.
Your murderous people and government must come clean. I don't know how long you can hide behind tall walls, but justice is patient and it will wait.
Ferhat
When is Hrant Dink's murderer going to be locked in a Turkish jail cell and treated like an inmate who needs help as opposed to a national hero?
Hey KO, was Turkey's brutal occupation of a sovereign state, Cyprus, also a binary choice, hah? Or Ottoman enslavement of ancient nations (Assyrians, Armenians, Greeks, Arabs, etc.), inhabiting your imperial prison of nations was also a binary choice? It’s not about any choice, it’s about how the Turkish state really is and known to the world: bloodthirsty, callous, and unmerciful.
Unfortunately, ‘Armenian Weekly’ chose not to publish my previous post explaining why this newly-cooked Doctor Grigoryan is being allowed to trumpet pro-US/pro-Serj government arguments for the ill-fated protocols. Maybe the post contained some names with which Grigoryan is affiliated. I’ll try to omit them this time and see if this suits the moderators. Grigoryan is closely affiliated with the Armenian National Movement (HHSH), especially with one of its most fervent ideologues. Given the support that the US government has always extended to HHSH ideology with regard to Armenia’s rapprochement with Turkey short of Genocide recognition, Grigoryan from time to time emerges on the surface. He was allowed to complete his doctorate and teach in leading American universities.
Ferhat wrote: "KASYANOV(KASYAN)..if any of you still remember him."
Kasyan is a stand alone Russian name similar to Lukyan (Lukyanov, another Russian politician, Valeryan, etc.) and the ending "ov" means "the son of"- no chance Ferhat-jan...
Armen, I was disturbed by the language of the press release myself. What do you expect from Armenian Studies when its centers employ State Department language!
I agree that the attendance to this lecture should be discouraged in the Armenian-American community. Arman Grigoryan will basically herald certain brainwashing views that the government is trying to widespread using ethnic Armenians as influence agents. Given the tone and trend of the announcement it is obvious that his lecture serves the interests of certain government circles and the critical minority of protocol-sympathizers within the community. It’s astonishing how NAASR, a respectable institution devoted to academic research of Armenian issues, and known for their stance on the Genocide recognition could sponsor such an event without familiarizing itself of who the presenter really is.
I do not understand why my comments are being deleted. The organizations sponsoring this lecture have to explain to the public why they are doing this. The wording of the press release is only ONE of the problems associated with this event. The choice of the speaker and its timing are others.......
Angry Armenian, you're not alone. Some of my comments are not being published although they contain no derogatory words, condescending tone, or veiled and not-so-veiled insults. If authors follow Armenian Weekly’s regulations, why aren’t their comments published?
Well, this is what the government does, guys. It's as old as the world! By means of articles like David Davidian’s ‘Turkish-Armenian Protocols: Reality and Irrationality’ or pro-protocol lectures by Arman Grigoryan, they pursue two-fold goals. First, gradual dissemination throughout the community of ideas, views, and opinions favorable to the protocols; and second, they probe in the meantime as to how harsh the criticism of the protocols remains. Has it softened or more 'work' needs to be done to tilt the community to the acceptance of these humiliating documents. Well, it seems that the government folks don’t know the Armenians well… and I pity them.
It is heartwarming to see that despite censored politics, there is a minority of the Turkish population that is willing to take risks and stand up to the extremists, in the name of common humanity. One day the world will be a better place; in the mean time these people should be encouraged, not spat on...
I don't think having an honest Turkish scholar talk about the Armenian Genocide
to a largely Armenian audience is such a big deal anymore. It was a bid deal 10
years ago but certainly not today. I think the next step which will be equally
as challenging and beneficial for Armenians and Turks is to see honest Turkish
scholars like Taner Akcam speak to largely Turkish audiences around the world.
Basically promoting honest dialogue between Turkish scholars and the Turkish
diaspora about ottoman history.
Armenians in general have a better understanding of what happened in 1915 than
the majority of Turks. I think more emphasis should be put on lectures geared
towards Turks by Turks.
Let these artificially-imposed, essentially anti-Armenian, and thus humiliating protocols got to HELL!
Dear Vincent,Zohrab et al...
A small minority in great Turkey is tantamount to a pebble in the ocean...a vast one at that
My Plea to all Hayortis is to be on the BADNESH(upfront wall/gate if you will .
These few well wishing,honest turks -with all due respect to them- do not really count much,albeit their efforts are well appreciated.But do please understand that it is not only the ultra nationalist turks,their army their clique what not, BUT ALSO THOSE SHAMELESS FOREIGN SUPPORTERS OF THE THAT GIVE MUCH encouragement to them to go on with their Denialist stance and try to bury our CAUSE, our CASE.For it is a case to be brought up to much more important instances.U.N,. Int'l Court s of Justice etc.,Our endevours must be carried on with force..nay ORGANIZED DIASPORA ,with its (future) Nat'l investment Trust Fund to support all of our demands..
My view/ FIRST AND FOREMOST ....B L O O D M O N E Y for the 1.5 millions martyrs..
g.p
Why is Grgoryan allowed to give a pro-US government lecture at an Armenian setting? The guy is known by his connections to Ter-Petrossian cohort with their anti-Armenian stance on the Genocide issue. Why is he being allowed to trumpet government propaganda on defeatist protocols at such institutions as Columbia and NAASR? If some forces hope to soften the Diaspora's stance on protocols by means of such cheap measures, they make a grave mistake a priori.
CORRECT!!!!
Yeah ..Anahit jan, in spanish there is a saying that goes:-(Uno tambien puede vivir sonaiando)i.e.,One can also live by dreaming...
You forget they are supported
, sorry the have BEEN supported close to a century now...
They know how to manipulate those supporters(you mention) and thus can forge ahead with their schemes,that of Pan Turkism...
Stop dreaming please,unless your friend-brother can develop some"science maneuvring " as you say and give it to them!!!!
Meanwhile ask all Armenians to set aside their un-coperativeness,respect ea other -though of different belief- and ABOVE ALL DUMP ENVY amongst us...a very bad trait,not only for wealth but one'sbeing more capable in his her work etc.,also mental merits...
best to you
G.p
Nairian!!!
Not ONLY LAND.This they said their gneral Kenan Evren some 30 yrs ago...and I quote"Armenians want land cme and get it"...Firstly we must PRESS FOR BLOOOD MONEY....
there is plenty land in .s. Canada and elsewhere...where you ,I se he presumably live.
First thigns first.Then COMPENSATION FOR BILLIONS WORTH OF MONASTERES CHURCHES DESTROYED, riches confiscated...we can then come to a mutual understanding with kurds(for there they are some 28 million of them.. then solve L A N D problem..
Don't please forget first thigns first...like others have done,Jews from Germany..learn from them!!!!
G.P.
I have in the past, wrote about turkish intelligence activities in Armenia, but no one listened to my pleas. I also wrote that turks have between 700-2000 low to mid level intelligence agents(spies) working non stop around the clock, 24 hours a day, trying to recruit and gather intelligence.
Armenia is sleeping, and the turks are recruiting. These numbers are not imaginary. Everyone in turkish occupied Kurdistan know about agents sent to Armenia non stop. This is not a JOKE.
Lo and behold,yesterday, a traitor and its recruiting turkish agent were arrested in Armenia. The traitor, one Mr. hartunyan, found with caches of information about Armenias military capabilities.
I don't understand why Armenia is so complacent in its patriotic duties? Corruption in the current government might be one reason, but betraying your own country is treacherous to say the least, and suicidal for the whole nation.
turks are dying to see the border opened, and opened soon. They are playing their dirty political gams here, as if they are Not interested having an open border. That's all BULL. They are dieing to start sending agents and provacators legally and with ease with an open border.
Betraying your spouse, hurts but one person.
Betraying your country, brings the end of your own people and country.
If Armenians have'nt learned their lessons, even after 95 years after the Genocide, then please come to turkish occupied Kurdistan, and look how we live under the turkish regime, surrounded by 300,000 armed forces, unable to teach Kurdish language, and bombed indescriminately almost every other day by turkish bombers.
All I can tell my Armenian friends is this:
STAY AWAKE, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF TRAITORS WORKING FOR THE turks.
STAY UNITED, IF YOU CONTINUE TO BE DIVIDED, YOUR HOUSE WILL FALL AND SOON.
We draw courage from your small Armenia, and we dream that one day, us too, will have a free country. But we are hurting seeing monumental complacensies amongst government officials in Armenia.
Ferhat, a proud Kurd for Armenia(ians)
"Akcam concluded by expressing the need for Armenian-Turkish dialogue, and added that the case would not be solved through financial reparations alone. If reparations were given, he said, and Turkey continued to ignore the rights of its minorities, then essentially nothing will have changed."
Previously, Akcam had ruled out financial reparations, recommending only moral reparations.
It sounds from above that he has decided to admit of financial reparations. If so, he may have allayed suspicions as to his motives, and given his words more credibility.
And the Genocide never stopped with the murder of 2-3 million innocent Armenians.
turks have started the Genocide of the Kurdish people by way of assimilation.
According to one Kurdish study, between 5-6 million Kurds have already been assimilated and turkified. If the trend continues, there won't be any Kurds left in current day turkey.
We can stand up, but cannot..because we lack a dedicated leader.
Ferhat
I like the Serbs, they are great people. Unfortunately their government kisses NATO's behinds - the same NATO that bombed Belgrade - and betrays their people. Boris Tadic is a scumbag.
Honeymoon is over! Parties are accusing each other for breach of contract. If protocols are not dead, they are surely in coma. Mr. Nalbandian must cite the holdings of the Constitutional Court to defend his position rather than declaration of other organizations.
The Court basically held that these two countries must first have healthy diplomatic relationship with complete open boarders and then and only then they can start considering other dimensions. Another word, without having full diplomatic and open boarders other issues are moot. Therefore, the Constitutional Court is in the same page as most of us in homeland and diaspora. However, the Constitutional Court could have reached opposite decision based upon its own holdings. Furthermore, the decision of the Constitutional Court is unconstitutional based on the following reasons: First, the issue formulated by the Court becomes a political question not judiciary one. Having diplomatic relation with foreign nation is strictly a foreign affair. Second, the holdings of the court support opposite decision. Since, all acts including the decision of the Constitutional Court must be constitutional. Therefore, the Court itself has violated the Constitution by passing judgment on a political question and declaring the protocols constitutional.
Garabed:
Although I respect Dr. Akcam and his work, what he says about our rights to reparations never really influenced my understanding of my rights to our land. Irrespective of what is said, I understand my legal rights concerning Western Armenia and Dr. Ackam's opinion on this matter never mattered to me. Who ever granted Dr. Ackam the permission to speak on behalf of my rights to my land?
Obviously "financial reparations alone" will not solve all problems between Turks and Armenians. Financial reparations alone has never solved any other dispute between two parties in conflict and the Turkish-Armenian case in no different.
Financial AND territorial reparations will and should be followed by a process of genuine reconciliation between both peoples. Thus reconciliation will not happen before justice is rendered. Anyone and any group that tries to skip the justice stage will fail.
Dear Vincent:
Yes the act of replacing a street sign is "heartwarming" but heartwarming acts like this are not enough to save the lives of writers like Hrant Dink from being targeted for execution! The publicity of this sign replacement does more harm than good in that it creates an illusion that things are changing for the good of Armenians in Turkey when nothing supports that conclusion. I agree that these people should be encouraged to do more and someone above already made a reasonable recommendation but they are hardly being "spat on."
Also, replacing street signs with the permission of the Mayor is not an example I would call of anything remotely close to "taking a risk." If that's your idea of risk taking you clearly don't know enough about Hrant Dink's life nor Turkey. Publishing weekly columns for years against your own government's policy of genocide cover up and blood money while receiving death threats from juiced up extremist Turkish youth living within earshot of your newspapers head office IS RISKY! Replacing a sign is hardly considered risky in this context even if you are residing in a fascist country like Turkey.
So yes Vincent, these people should be encouraged to make more tangible change to save the lives of REAL risk takers like Hrant Dink.
Support for the so-called Palestinians is cover for the new wave of Jew hatred in the West. Western intellectuals, many on the progressive left, and some on the conservative right, have falled into this trap.
It is good that some Turks are acknowledging the Genocide.
My concern, however, is that they are getting more popular, being listened to for their views, being invited to more venues, and having their views published, than are many Armenians who are dedicated to Hye Tahd.
If the Armenians with something to say - and I don't mean bought-off academicians and those getting their funding from organizations that are essentially hostile to Armenians (ICG, Soros, US, EU etc.) - are not being heard and the Turks are being heard, then something is very wrong. We all know what is happening, I think: Turks, the US State Department, and the pro-reconciliation Armenian crowd are essentially trying to downgrade Hye Tahd into being about genocide acknowledgment and ONLY genocide acknowledgment.
We seem to be on a slippery slope that we cannot get off. That slippery slope leads straight to a re-Ottomanization of Armenia, and in the Diaspora it leads to de-politicized future generations whose main interest is choreg recipes.
Bravo, Ferhat. But don't worry, we know the Turks well. One day they WILL be held accountable for their crimes against humanity. Let them make no mistake!
From the time they came to Asia minor, and for centuries, killing and taking the belongings and wealth of the others, has been the primary source of income, for Turks, the history books are full of that,nothing is new,what a shame.
Armenian Masis, some Armenians, unfortunately are fast to bite the bait.
That same turk(robert) who was talking in a kind and conciliatory manner, here on this forum, showed his true colors today on Asbarez online today. You see how turks change their colors? Just yesterday he was proclaiming to the whole Armenian nation that he is here "to learn..." and then he goes on Asbarez online and lashes out at the Dashnak party in a virulent way.
I have always said, and I'll never change my promise that, I NEVER BELIEVE ONE WORD COMING OUT OF THE MOUTH OF A TURK, period.
I also mentioned in my numerous posts that turks are conducting espionage activities in Armenia, and that they have between 700-2000 low to mid level agents hiring Armenian traitors etc etc...and no onelistened, until a day ago, a traitor who goes by the name hartunyan was arrested alongside his turkish boss. I know, I live in turkey, and hear things here and there. But no matter what, Armenians are still sleeping.
The newest fervor here amongst the turks is the supposed "return of Artsakh" as a autonomous region of azerbaijan....Here is my warning to all Armenians:
DO NOT CEDE 1 INCH OF ARTSAKH, BECAUSE THAT WILL BE THE END OF ARMENIA FOREVER.
Listen ALL ARMENIANS, Artsakh will be sold to the highest bidder. according to turks, they will, once and for all, eliminate All Armenians from Artsakh, destroy any and all Armenian churches and monuments, the way they did in occupied Armenian territory of Nakhichevan.
My words will come to haunt all Armenians. Everything I wrote here, came to be true. Why? Because turks are arrogant and talk too much and too loud.
I will continue my pleading with the Armenian people. I will beg, plead, cry if need be, go on hunger strike, until all Armenians unite and with one big loud voice tell the Genocidal turk that" ARTSAKH IS NOT FOR SALE.
I did and will continue to do my job here warning Armenians about the coming defeats if they become complacent. I owe the Armenian people a lot.
Please please listen from a Kurd who knows the turk inside and out. Everything they say and prmise is a LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE.
God bless and protect small friendless Armenia.
Ferhat
Ferhat -- Unlike most of my Armenian brethren who are quick to embrace the Kurd as a friend, I am a little more hesitant. The Kurds seem to have become a more "enlightened" people, not because of any fundamental changes in their society, but because it suits their geopolitical interests to be nice to the Armenians.
You're hatred and ferociousness against the Turk is not going to convince me that you are the friend of the Armenian. You're telling me the Turks are still a genocidal people -- and what evidence have we found to suggest the Kurds have changed?
If the Kurds were to rise as a military power in the region, I doubt they would be willing to give back Western Armenia. The Armenians have no friends, and never will.
The turks that acknowledge the Genocide are few. There is Orhan Pamuk, Dr Akcam, some journalists the likes of Ayse Gunaysu, Eren Keskin, Amberin Zaman etc etc. These turks are all my heroes, because they talk and walk the truth. I call them "Righteous Turks," and highly respect them. Pamuk for one, the poor guy was crucified for mentioning the Armenian Genocide and the mistreatment of my Kurdish people.
How about the 59,999,994 million remaining turks?
They all are in the "denialists" camp.
Ferhat
Mike you are right. However I have an Armenian friend by the name of Zohrab Kasian(with an -i-).
Nevertheless, that news was forwarded to me not by an Armenian but an ethic Russian.
In the end, I guess it does not matter. If someone is an Armenian, but does no good for Armenia and the Armenians, what good that person is?
Peace my Armenian friends.
Ferhat
There is no reason to applaud Phillip Gordon or the US State Department for supporting Armenia's Constitutional Court ruling on the Protocols; Phillip Gordon (known Turkophile and genocide denier) not only follows (or perhaps not necessarily ) what should be best for the US, above all what is best for Israel.
Gordon's support for the protocols is to punish Erdogan and Turkey's hostile attitude towards Israel. It is pure politics. Phillip Gordon bodes ill for Armenia.
Dear Henry,
About the Alevi's, there are not "Sunni Alevi's". The Sunni's have historically massacred the Alevi's. There are Turkic Alevi's, there are Kurdish Alevi's... some Alevi's consider themselves to be part of Islam, other consider themselves to be something else. The Alevi's themselves do not agree about what they are. Yes, there are elements of Shi'ism because for the Alevi's, Ali is extremely sacred. Alevi's differ in their religious practice from Muslims in many ways. They do not pray five times a day, the do not go to mosque, the do not read the Koran, they do not fast at Ramadan (but do for Ashura). The Turkish government has steadily been trying to assimilate them by building mosques in or around Alevi villages. Alevi's are pressured to go to mosque by coworkers and neighbors in mixed or majority Sunni areas. During the 80's and 90's when there were forced migrations to the cities, Alevi's lived in fear-- many would get up and turn the lights on when the early morning call to prayer was heard so that neighbors would think they were praying like every one else. At times they were marked and massacred. Unfortunately, some Alevi's aligned themselves with Kemalists, thinking that "secularism" protected them from the Sunni's-- some even seeing Ataturk as their protector, in spite of the fact that he ordered the operations (and genocide) of Dersim.
for good information on the Alevis, see Martin Van Bruinessen's work: http://www.let.uu.nl/~Martin.vanBruinessen/personal/publications/Alevi_revival.htm
If you google "A journey to Dersim" you will also find a great article written by some travelers for the Royal Geographical society. Their report was published in 1914, but their travels were a few years earlier. They interview an Armenian Bishop who thinks the Alevi's were Armenian (I find this assertion a bit comical, but it shows the closeness the two communities felt for each other.
First I did not understand word 'Alevi' but when you mentioned their culture I was able to understand well.The correct pronunciation in Arabic is 'Allawi' probably with double Aa, 'Aallawi.'
Like the same for name Saladin Al-Ayoobi , should be 'Salah Aldeen', in Arabic language they write it sepretly never a one word.
Hye, gordon of the USA State Department is not educated of the Archives in Washington DC which
serves those who seek to know - the truths of the Turkish Genocide perpetrated against the civilized
Armenian nation. He should also know, that if the Ottoman Turks and their subsequent convoluted
leaderships had been brought to face their guilt - the Jewish Genocide shall never occurred! For despots (Turks, et al) shall not have dared to eliminate peoples for their own convoluted goals - knowing they shall not be allowed to proceed... as we have to Darfur into 2010.
I suggest gordon and his cohorts in the USA State Department turn to research the Archives - not far to go - in Washington DC, and learn the truths of the history of the Turkish Genocide of the civilized Armenian nation - eliminated from their own lands of nearly 4,00o years.
Turks to this day are still in pursuit of the generations of Armenians whose Surivor grandparents and parents have also passed on this history in a Covenant to the present Armenian generations - who were scatttered to flee the Turkish tyranny - to all the civilized nations of the world and in the fledgling nation of Armenia... Justice is waiting to be served to the Armenian nation - conquored not by a war but a vile Genocide - Turk still in the Ottoman mode have lied in their own history books
Yet, Turkey is decayed, decay and more - internally. Turkey glitters and brags on the outside but on the inside - withering and failing, day by day - is deparately using it Ploys... Manooshag
Turkey must recognize minorities and support full political rights, if its to stay united. Kurdish people
P.S. Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, for his concern and efforts for the Armenians (I recently read) that he too was 'removed' from his term as ambassador - then. And yet, today too, our Ambassador
John Evens, was 'ridiculed' and 'demoted' for also using the word GENOCIDE.
My oh my, what hold has the turk over our leaderships in the United States of America? We, the greatest republic the world has known - to 'obey' a nation whose Genocides go on - today the Kurds
face the tyranny of the turks.
Funny, the turks call the Kurds 'terrorists' (together with Bush/Cheney) in their efforts to pursue and subdue these freedom loving peoples too.
WOW... Manooshag
Thanks for highlighting Avery's achievements, and also stressing that his choice of a professional name was not a judgement against his love of his heritage. Hopefully our community will get better at encouraging our own within the entertainment industry and Hollywood a bit better at not grimacing at everything Armenian.
The Hughes Bros. having a positive experience with their Armenian culture, as individuals and artists, represents a turning point on a variety of different levels for our community.
ANCA and AAA websites do not usually have much of interest on a day to day basis. Therefore, they seem to me to be a rather poor guage of Armenian American political interest and activism (though, admittedly, we don't have enough of either).
Better to see how many hits the Armenian American media get (quite a bit, especially lately, I would guess due to papers' going online) and also Armenian (and Armenian American) news sites, of which there are many. But the author deserves credit for his attempts to quantify things.
One problem, of many, with ANCA is that it is underfunded and understaffed. Increasingly too, if you read the ARF papers, there is some question as to how dedicated it really is to the land and reparations matters. There are signs that the ARF has taken on some of the rhetoric of the "reconciliation" crowd, and with some of the same academicians too.
Has anyone noticed how softline the formerly hardline Armenian American academicians have become? Has anyone besides me noticed that the Society of Armenian Studies (SAS) has been taken over by softliners? Look at the board members. The new generation of academicians thinks that "Turkey has changed." Maybe they should go live there and write whatever they want and see how much it has changed.
As for the AAA, it has enough money, but little idea of what to do with the money because it lacks fight. There's no fight there. AAA depresses me.
After reading what everyone had to say whether they are Armenians or not, is not the issue. Look on the bright side of everything. What happened in the past was a terrible crime against humanity. When a child commits a mistake against his brother the parent teaches that child to apologize to his brother. That was the model role of a parent in charge, but in that only happens to children. As for grown ups the rules of discipline do not comply!!! But, the day will come even though denying sounds easy to some, they will have to accept the facts and then it will be so ever more shamefull !!!!!!!
Well said manooshag.
Artsakh will be sold and soon.
It will again be incorporated into turkey(azerbaijan is an artificial country as far as history books are concerned. the land of azerbaijan used to belong to Armenia, so if they want one Armenian province, Artsakh,...then Armenians should demand the return of the whole country called azerbaijan. Proof: Historians of the day, clearly put current azerbaijan in Armenia.)
Ferhat
Mr. Hoffman,
I can't speak for Armenian intellectuals -- but it is a possibility that they do not in fact agree with Israeli policies of today. And second, it goes beyond the "realpolitik" of the Armenian and Israeli governments. Organized American Jewry has opposed the term "genocide" for a very long time -- and even now, after accepting it rather reluctantly, have yet to side with us on the recognition issue. The correct analogy would be the Armenian government's respone to the Holocaust in trying to warm ties with Iran. Armenia and its Diaspora are not on an ACTIVE campaign to stop Holocaust recognition or affirmation, as are the Jews and the Israeli government. The comparison is bogus.
But if we're talking about intellectuals -- the greatest deniers in academia are Jewish -- Heath Lowry, Bernard Lewis, etc.
(And I don't want to get into how the Armenians have been treated in Israel...meanwhile the Jews in Armenia have probably enjoyed one of the most constant periods of peace ANYWHERE in the world).
The threat of collapse looms over Nalbandyan-Sarksyan Duet! The Karabakhi people will never grow into a victim the way Sarksyan and Nalbandyan dream.
God save Karabakh!
Chris J, I like your thinking. Scott Brown is the "Real Deal". We need more like him. He is down to earth and he understands the working people. You will never be able to make sense to people like Manoosh. Palin is also very similar to what Scott Brown stands for. Growing up and coming from a Socialist country, I appreciate what this country has to offer. Obama is taking us in that direction. We need less Government control and more power to the people. The politicians forgot that they work for the people. Let's hope Scott Brown does not get poisoned.
With all due respect did not Kurds and Armenians killed each during world war 1? Is not this the reason both Armenians and Kurds claim the exact same piece of land from Turkey?
It's ironic that the Armenian Organization that campaigned the hardest for the Democratic ticket gets the short end of the stick. The ANC needs to take a moment and think why this is so.
I would hate to see a widening gap between Armenians and Jews. Both of your peoples suffered terrible massacres and mass executions on the hands of Ottoman Turks and German Nazis.
Once again, turks are coming out smart due to their 1000 year political diplomacy, whereas Armenians are falling into this trap built exclusively by turks. Their aim is to seperate Armenians from Jews. Do not fall into this useless claims that "Jews were responsible for the Genocide," this is all the making of the Ottoman tuks and their German friends to weaken both Armenia and Israel.
It was the ottoman turks that committed the Genocide, and not the Jews.
Israel will come to recognize the Genocide.
Turkish killing machine will and shall end soon.
Turks caused innumerable deaths of innocent Greeks, Armenians, Albanians, Hungaryans, Bulgarians, Serbians, Austrians, Jews, Romanians and the list is too damn long.
Turks repeatedly call Armenians, Kurds and Hungarians as the three peoples who succumbed easily under turkish onslaught. Just last week a Hungarian national was beaten by three alleged "grey wolves" punks in Adana, calling the poor Hungarian a "pig," a reference for his Christian belief, telling him to go back to Buda(an apparent reference to Budapest), and his girlfriend manhandled, almost raped. They sprayed the number 121,001, apparently calling the poor and helpless Hungarian as their victim #121,001. Such arrogance the world has never seen before.
Ferhat
Turks hope to pacify the Armenians with small gestures. It won't work.
Hy Bashmakian, I'm still waitng for the 'moment' when the AAA takes moments to 'speak' of their
stance of the issue of the Protocols, the big give-away of the fledling Armenian nation to the Turks.
AAA silence is resounding.... Manooshag
P.S. AAA tends to copycat/ape much of materials put out by the ANCA - unable to 'copy' now??
(Too, you shall know it is the ARMENIAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE OF AMERICA - ANCA).
M
As if Deukmejian would endorse the Democrat in the Nevada race?
By the way, I have not seen Deukmejian involved in Hye Tahd for what seems like forever. Why not?
Just a small correction, Val lived at 60th & Locust instead of 63rd.
Beautiful. English "Siamanto". Very vivid and picturesque.
Sonentz is an accomplished poet
A return to nostalgia is perhaps the answer. It will take time for our hearts to mend again and perhaps even more time to forget the blatant disregard of the Diaspora's opinions about the infamous protocols by the current president, leaving me feeling like I'm in the loser in a one-sided love affair... The idea behind your strategy is sound in my opinion, because we need to believe in our dreams for a better Armenia in order to work to make those dreams come true. All that remains is finding the courage to believe again...
Apres Harut jun!
Togh Asdvadz nere mer tavajunere yerevan yev mer joghovoortin artarootyan janabarhin myanan noren.
beautiful poetry. I hope you won't mind my posting this from the bible.
Ezekiel, Prophet 500-600 B.C. in Iraq, after a massacre of Jews - speaks of belief in the resurrection of the soul to an afterlife. There is an afterlife in our memory too of our loved ones.
"Valley of Dry Bones
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath [a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' "
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' " 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.
11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "
Dear Aram:
Don't count on President Obama to work on the Armenian issues. He has enough problems at home, especially with his plan to raise taxes and socialize Health Care.
Bryan Haserjian
NYOPD:
NO, you're wrong.
Kurds live close to Syrian and Irqai borders.
Armeniian lands, Medz Hayq, is just north of Kurdish populated areas.
We will never fight the Armenians, ever again.
Ferhat
Mardig, was that a joke? Since when have the people of Armenia trampled on YOUR opinion? In fact, since when have the people of Armenia even had a voice...anywhere!?
I'm quite sure every time they've stood up to say something -- the Diaspora (as divided as it is) has united to support their oppressor. I blame your community leaders for feeding you this garbage nonsense.
As for nostalgia -- no, I think the Diaspora has been living in a dream world as is. Some reality could do it a lot of good.
Ferhat is absolutely wrong.
Kurds continue to occupy the Armenian villages in Western Armenia (eastern Turkey) where they brutally murdered Armenians and drove them out of their homes that they pillaged and confiscated during the Genocide. Kurdish sheep still graze our lands, and Kurds pick the apricots off our trees; they harvest grain from our fields, and store hay in the remnants of the stone houses our fathers and grandfather's hand-built. They hang their laundry inside our crumbling churches and grow their tomatoes and peppers in our churchyards.
But Ferhat is absolutely right about one thing; Kurds will never battle and kill us again. Neither will Turks.
I hope those protocols are dead. Now time to rid Armenia of it's ruling thugs. .................................
(to Bryan, off the subject) I'm not a big fan of Obama but he did walk into a 1.2 trillion deficit not to mention the economic collapse left for him by the previous administration that every one knew needed the wealthy tax repealed and probably a tax increase to get out of. Also the insurance industry is a scam and the grand majority of Americans were in favor of a public option to ease the heavy burden of health insurance premiums that chokes the middle class. I never understood why anyone without money votes Republican as they only champion the wealthy. Like asking the fox to watch the hen house.
Murat brings up an interesting point. Just how many streets in Yerevan, let alone anywhere else in Armenia, are named after Turks? My guess is ZERO!!! Anyone want to prove me wrong?!!
Ferhat,
You display an obvious delusional paranoia which is a sub-conscious cry for help. You should learn that there's no longer a need to pretend to be someone/something that you're not!
Harut,
Who says? You! Granted that you're entitled to your opinions, but that certainly doen't mean that they're correct! You know as well as anyone else that for someone to make a statement like yours is someone who is terrified of the truth being revealed to the world! At least your opinions were posted and not censored, as it should be.
Dear Harut Sassounian; Amen... Amen... and Amen! My prayers have been answered, thank you and thank you God for answering to my prayers of ditching the harmful protocols to my beloved nation!
I also thank you dear Harut for your above article, you put it very well!
"renewed once again from 1920-23" I had no idea you guys had extended the scope.
That these idiotic protocols were just an attempt to shake off the region, the balance of power in it was clear to some analysts from the beginning. It's just language and several anti-Armenian provisions in them that made Armenians acutely sensitive and infuriated over them. Another major reason for Armenians’ anxiety was and still remains the illegitimate creeps ruling the country, narrow-minded, self-centered and inherently corrupt what-nots who’d sell the nation and its vital interests for power and money. Someone said here, and rightfully so, that our primary task as a nation is get rid of these thugs and, finally, have a government that will be relatively more accountable to the people and compassionate towards their needs.
I am still surprised that Harut and many others like Harut believed for one moment that Armenia was going to agree and establish a commission to study the events of 1915 in order to determine if it was a genocide. The protocols were bad for one simple reason. You cannot have such a document when it can easily be read it in many different ways. It didn't make sense to have a document that was so vague to start with.
From the beginning it was a diplomatic masquarade imposed by superpowers, those so-called Armenian-turkish protocoles and it leaded to another turkish diplomatic-criminial masquarade as expected and Armenian court reafirmed Armenians,historical rights to Armenian lands and financial reparations of committed crimes by Genocidal Turkey from which Armenians will never give up
Hye, Harut. Thanks, you have brought us up to date on the status of the convoluted Turkish stance on their Protocols. Actually I too have employed the word PLOYS as the means the Turks, together with their well paid American lobbyists (unbelieveably, former members of the Congress of the USA) pursue. And I do mean pursue, against the historically recognized Turkish Genocide of Armenians.
Turks have used PLOYS over, over, over endlessly. Thus PLOYS = Turks' desparations...
Hum, these same former Congressmen lobbyists for Turkey - shall these have been party to the formation of the misdirected Protocols?
Addendum: Congress shall not allow the 'retired' members of the USA Congress to in any way shape or form take any employment with/for leaderships of other nations. Having been privy to the
workings, events and more of our Congress, they shall not become in any way, shape or form in pay of other nations thus owe them allegiances - whether or not these nations shall in the past have been an ally - or may not be an ally - in future. Manooshag
I agree 100% with Robert. Just because Sassounian says it doesn't make it so. It is sad to see some deluded commenters celebrating the end of the protocols without any solid reason to believe they are gone except someone telling them so.
Just notice the double-speak between the beginning of the article and the end:
Beginning: "The show is finally over!"
End: "That is why I believe the protocols cannot be resuscitated."
That's a huge difference between declaring it dead at the beginning and ending it by merely stating one's belief that they are dead. Just because you say it doesn't make it so! Hillary Clinton and all the others did not go to Switzerland in October for nothing, don't act like because Turkey makes a fuss about the court ruling all the world leaders will just throw their hands up and say "oh well, we tried". This is just another page turning in this convoluted story- not the end by far.
As a Kurd who lived almost 60 years under brutal turkish occupation, I believe that I have a right to make a comment here.
To: Philadelphia Armenian Historian
Right after kemal ataturk took office, his first priority, of course, was to continue the Genocide against the remnants of the Armenian and Greek communities. kemal was extremely busy during the early and all throughout the 1930s, destroying truckloads after truckloads of Ottoman archives that would incriminate turkey in the future. kemal destroyed about 99% of Ottoman archives that related to the wholesale slaughter of 2-3 million defenseless women and children, and kept some unimportant documents that basically are worthless to a historian,
It just boggles the mind to see how some Armenians are easily duped into thinking that through these protocols, turks will behave and act civilized.
Armenians have absolutely no reason to prove to the world that the Genocide happened. It would be a treacherous and criminal act to even suggest that Armenians have to prove the Genocide.
If the Armenian government, through divine intervention, won this battle of protocols, and eventually won Artsakhs union with Armenia...then I will convert and become a Christian Armenian, and live in Yerevan.
Why pay homage to the Turkish state, which has lied and killed non stop since time immortal is beyond me.
Ferhat
Once again dear editorial staff members, we have come to butting heads. Why? I state my opinion (which BTW, I can easily back up) and you put your tails between your legs and run in abject terror from the truth which I provide, by deleting my posts. This, as you all know, is called CENSORSHIP!! Only facists do these types of things. Those who want to maintain control over their minions by preventing the light of truth from ever reaching them. You perpetuate the hate instead of giving them a chance for hope! YOU are guilty of keeping them in the dark!! Yet you have the GALL to say that we try to supress items! You truly epitomize the term "hypocrite"! So, how long is this suppossed to continue? As always, you're too cowardly to respond, so as always, I won't expect any response. I reserve that (response) for real people who have nothing to hide and have integrity (a term you all should look up and learn the meaning of).
Perhaps one day you may surprise me and actually show some integrity and stop this deletion.censorship garbage! Until that day comes, all I can say is SHAME ON YOU ALL!
Hye, is (no name) Philly 'Armenian historian' either a proProtocolite or, like robert, a turk?
and
Artashes Bashmakian, only our dim-witted, inexperienced current Armenian leaderships were to read the Protocols... and being dim-witted, inexperienced (pockets filling) politicians they didn't even had the intelligence to have any patriots in Haiastan join them in 'reading' the Protocols which favor only the Turk... Manooshag
Dear Turkish and Armenian Friends,
Stop hating each other so intensely.
Educate yourselves with as unbiased as possible ears and eyes as to the history of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. I beg you all to read scholarly researched works (not state sponsored) and find out for yourselves what happened, why, and how we can move forward as two communities, both inside and outside the diaspora. It is important to inform ourselves about BOTH TURKISH AND ARMENIAN ACCOUNTS.
Stop labeling your Turkish/Armenian communities, and instead educate yourselves and speak intelligently about your opinions.
State politics is always in the interest of the state - - that goes for every country in the world. Turkey and Armenia are no different.
The important thing to focus on is Healing and Reconciliation. This can only be done through INTELLIGENT DIALOGUE between ARMENIAN AND TURKISH COMMUNITIES. Issues must be confronted, however, in healthy ways.
If we all want to move forward in one way or the other, we must be willing to have dialogue with each other.
EDUCATION and WILLINGNESS are key.
It seems Akcam, like any other good peddler of goods, adjusts his messege to maximize the customer base. It is easy to listen to an echo chamber, the challenge is to listen to other views. He seems to have excelled at letting Armenian crowds hear what is music to their ears.
The fact is Akcam's messege was heard by a large number of Turks and it was not convincing for one good reason above all: it was not true. It was at best a point of view, not a fact. It is a common fantasy on these pages that majority of Turks are kept in the dark about facts related to this topic and that is why there is a disgreement, supposedly becasue they are ill informed. From my observations so far, I can safely say it is Armenians who are in general deprived of unpleasant facts about their recent history and deeds.
Of course there are episodes and policies in the history of the Turkish Republic that are objectionable and unacceptable and Turks will be better off accepting responsibilty and took steps, even if symbolic, to rectify them. Mythical genocides a century old is not one of them.
Well, this is precious... as we all know, it was mainly the unruly Kurds who were attacking and robbing more urban Armenians in the East at the beginning of the previous century as the central authority weakened, ironically with much help of Armenians and their patron Russia. Hamidiye was established mostly for the purpose of gaining some control over these hordes and even that did not work well. It got even worse when Armenians began to implement by force of gun their Greater Armenia fantasy which required ethnic cleansing of the majority Muslim population of Eastern Turkey. Well, who were these Muslims? Mostly Turkish-Kurds. They did not like the idea of course and fought back together with the central Ottoman government. Guess who Armenians would have to confront if this fantasy plan were to be brought that close to implementation again. Mostly Turkish-Kurds. Again. I assure you, it would not be a pretty sight. Again.
Just as a note, Dersim bloodshed was instigated as a result of a massive armed rebellion by Kurds. It took a significant portion of the whole Turkish Army to finally put it down. It was bloody and the challenge to the young Republic was serious and as was the response given the fresh memory of what happened to the Turkish nation before, during and after WWI. This conflict had far reaching consequences, including fate of Musul and Kurds in general. Does this mean the excesses should not be unearthed and exposed? Of course they should be exposed and injustices addressed. Which is mostly what is taking place anyway. If only others did the same.
To PhiladelphiaArmenianHistorian: Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission also was a creation of the State Department, heavily encouraged and supported by the highest echelons of the U.S. administration, as well as several leading Western power centers. Just recall what happened with it in the end. The initiative has died. The ‘deluded commenters’ here, as you stigmatize them, are not celebrating the end of the protocols based on what a diasporan Armenian has said. They calmly and soberly evaluate the situation that clearly must indicate to illuminated commenters like you that the way these stupid protocols were intended to work simply doesn’t work. They are, indeed, dead in this sense. And I believe this is what posters here meant by ‘death of the protocols,’ i.e. death of the negotiated documents in their original form and purpose. Whether or not they will evolve into something else, no one knows, but as things stand, Hillary Clinton and all the others who went to Switzerland in October, got essentially something very different from what they, presumably, planned at the outset.
This will be a long political process but in the end Ankara will be made to kneel and open its borders with Armenia... And this political process is a result of serious geopolitical shifts that have occurred in the region as a result of Georgia's defeat in the summer of 2008. With the West effectively expelled from the region (see current developments in the Ukraine as well) Georgia and Azerbaijan are now vulnerable and at the mercy of the Kremlin. Moreover, Ankara is growing increasingly dependent on Russian trade and energy as well. The good news is that Russia, who fears Turkic/Islamic expansion in the region just as much as we Armenians do, is using Armenia as a regional platform from which to project its political and economic power. Nevertheless, the current political processes going on the region presents Armenia with an opportunity the kind of which Armenia has not had in centuries. Armenia needs to beco0me a regional player, and it has begun to be as of late. The only question that remains is - are we as a nation ready to manipulate and/or exploit this historic opportunity for the benefit of our beloved republic?
Congratulation to all armenians all over the world
There is an arabic idiom that says ( The truth will stay truth & the blood never become water )
First thing i said at the start of this manipulated treaty that if the Armenians in Armenia will be profiting from this agreement let them decide that & go Ahead with it .
That because if something bad happens after they will benefit the bad & if something good happened after they will benefit the good . at last the black cloud dissapears & the justice acknowledged.
Long live ARMENIA ( Great poeple old history )
Mari,
Scholarly researched works not sponsored by states reveal the truth of the Armenian, Assyrian, and Pontic genocides. One party is denying the truth and one party is the aggrieved. Only a handful of scholars who have no horse in the race (neither Armenian nor Turkish) take the Turkish position, and even then, their hypothesis' are debunked. Not too mention that even their hypothesis' never go so far as to give any credence to the state-sponsored propaganda by Turkey.
Robert, name one Turk that Armenians would name a street after, perhaps Karabekir who threatened to finish off the remaining Armenians that the CUP failed to kill.
To Mari:
"Stop hating each other so intensely."
I have reread all the posts of this thread and neither Turk nor Armenian has been hating.
" I beg you all to read scholarly researched works (not state sponsored)"
The Armenian state does not sponsor research only the turkish state does. The turkish government sponsored research on the subject is so delusional that it represents a "north korean reality" of history. Numerous independent Turkish scholars within turkey have studied the issue and they say its genocide.
The International Association of Genocide Scholars have issued numerous statements as to what happened in the Ottoman Empire was genocide. They also state denial is a continuation of genocide. Thus turkey is still a genocidal state. The turkish state will be punished for the genocide and the denial of the Armenian genocide no way for them to get around it.
Turkey's allies in WWI the Germans and Austrians in their secret cables about the situation in turkey described what happened to the Armenians as "race extermination"
"It is important to inform ourselves about BOTH TURKISH AND ARMENIAN ACCOUNTS."
So we must take into account the holocaust deniers, both the tutsi and hutu accounts in rwanda, and the many other instances of genocide? After all there are always two sides to a story. yeah right.
"State politics is always in the interest of the state"
Yes this is true. It is in turkey's best interest to deny the genocide because they are the successor to the ottman state and there is no statute of limitations for genocide. The only legally binding document of international law between Armenia and Turkey is the Wilson Arbitral Award of eastern turkey to Armenia. Turkey illegally occupies land of the Armenian Republic. Armenia recognizes all treaties of the soviet union but the treaty of moscow 1921 and the treaty of kars 1921 were signed not by any legitmate recognized countries but by unrecognized rebel groups- the bolsheviks and the kemalists hence completely illegal. When the time comes the Constitutional court of Armenia will determine the legality of the treaty of Kars.
"INTELLIGENT DIALOGUE between ARMENIAN AND TURKISH COMMUNITIES. Issues must be confronted, however, in healthy ways."
How can there be dialogue when turks and armenians within the turkish state are not free to discuss because of Article 301. Anything contrary to the turkish state ideology would constitute a violation of article 301- insulting turkishness!!!
We all want to have contact with the varied peoples of turkey, not the genocidal turkish government.
There can be no peace without justice for all Anatolians- those living there now and in the diaspora.
Reparations, restitution, restoration and recognition of genocide for the Armenians, Assyrians, Pontian Greeks, Yezidis, Bulgarians and Alevi Kurds. Oh and give Aya Sophia back to the Greeks and all the other churches turks have stolen over the years.
So Mari, I assume you are in turkey. let's talk turkey errrr let's have dialogue. lol.
Hye, why is Turkey, from the Ottomans until today, so obsessively intent in their pursuit of their
demeaning Armenians? A civilized, intelligent nation of Armenians seeking now to advance their
fledgling nation of today? Mentality, jealously, viciousness, against their victims... Manooshag
AVETIS above wrote this:
"The good news is that Russia, who fears Turkic/Islamic expansion in the region just as much as we Armenians do, is using Armenia as a regional platform from which to project its political and economic power. Nevertheless, the current political processes going on the region presents Armenia with an opportunity the kind of which Armenia has not had in centuries."
Avetis, please prove what you say. Explain what you mean by power projection by Russia, and why should Armenia be a tool of any country? What power is being projected and where? We want What exactly is the "opportunity" you speak of for Armenia and why is it so good?
Your explanations have been vague so far. Most Armenians do not trust Russia, and with good reason.
Here is what an infamous Russian said in 1895:
"Yes, Russia wants Armenia, but without the Armenians!"
- Prince Lobanov-Rostovsky, Russian Foreign Minister, 1895
Mari,
I commend your comments and vision. But, as you can plainly see for yourself, what you'd hope for is made impossible by posters such as Joseph, Dino, and many others. You must understand that they have been, and continue to be to this very day, instilled with hate via their indoctrination as youths (usually via attendance at their AYF summer camps). Never mind that they run away from any debate. Any posed opinion (by anyone), which may be contrary to their (dashnaks) rabid position, is immediately met with either censorship and deletion, or defamation of the person's character or his family members, vulgar assaults, ludicrous charges of being paid agents of Turkey, the list just goes on and on! Just about every single piece of "evidence" that they produce as proof of an alledged "genocide" has long since been debunked, and they know it. The problem is Mari, that they continue on presenting the same old material over and over. Why? Because they strongly adhere to the saying that if one tells a lie long enough, eventually you'll get people (ignorant) to listen and believe you. Have you ever wondered why many of my posts are deleted/censored? It's because the editorial staff is terrified that what I say may actually make some people begin to question the century-old dashnak pablum. Please note Mari that I never use vulgarity in any of my posts. I am always civil and don't make character assinations. But most importantly, I draw your attention to the fact that I use the term "dashnak" instaed of the generic Armenian. This is because there are many good and kind Armenians out there (many are my friends). But these are mainly non-dashnaks. They will tell you the truth if you get a chance to ask one of them. They are too terrified to speak up in public for fear of receiving death threats from hard-line dashnaks. A good Armenian friend of mine (Ara, a non-dashnak) showed me an actual death threat letter he receieved from one of these dashnakians. It was written in armenian, but he translated it to me. No wonder so many of them are quiet! Ara's family had moved to Istanbul years ago. he moved to the US over twenty years ago with his family. He family had lived in Anatolia for hundreds of years. They were survivors, during WWI, of the mass killings of Armenians by DASHNAK ARMENIAN REBELIOUS TRAITORS, when they refused to help the dashnaks murder innocent Turkish and Kurdish civillians in their villages. Others went unwillingly with the dashnaks so as to spare their families. Dashnaks killed their own people! This is well documented. Please Mari, seek out any of these non-dashnak Armenians and get the real story from them (don't take only my word for it). I could write volumes about this, but what I'd like to leave you with is to ask yourself this one question...Why are dashnaks so vehemently opposed to a historical commission examining all of the archives and FINALLY getting at the truth? Why are, to this very day, the Armenian archives in yerevan and Boston STILL closed to the public? Dashnaks will NEVER give you an answer to these questions!! They'll do their usual side-step shuffle to avoid and to change to direction of the topic. Assuming that this isn't censored and deleted, then I wish you the very best Mari. Good luck.
Mr. Boyajian presents good reasons why Armenians need to be weary of trusting official Washington. Except for a brief time under Wilson, the Washington establishment has never had Armenian interests at heart. To make things as simple as possible, a bit too simple, everything in the Caucasus especially in regards to natural resources would be a lot easier if Armenia were removed from the picture, which is what will happen if Artsakh is lost.
Yet, Mr. Boyajians treatment of the Russian's is very simplistic, they fear pan-islamism and pan-turkism just as much if not more than we do. It seems someone in the Kremlin read the late Andranik Chalabian's article, "Emperors, Czars and Commissars". It is quite possible that if official baku goes against Russian wishes, and resumes the war against Armenia, that azerbaijan could find itself in the same situation as georgia did in August of 2008.
Furthermore, one can start counting to a new war now since azerbaijan is in panic mode right now and has been since late 2008. With the recent statements coming out of Moscow and Washington, both turkey and azerbaijan know their place, which is far below either Russia or the U.S. Yet, the aliyev clan has never been known for believeing in the rational actor theory, as their hold on that banana republic depends on garnering public attention away from their crimes to the 'bogeyman' aka Armenia.
And let us remember the cardinal rule in international affairs, we have no friends nor enemies, only interests. Thank the Lord that our existence as a nation serves the interests of Russia.
David Boyajian's article is a genuine picture of the U.S. doubletalk and her self-serving role in the Armenian-Turkish relationship. I was not quite clear if Presel's comment on a quick-fix for the Artsakh problem belonged to that 1996 meeting or it is a recent statement. Even if it is an old one, it still holds true. We in the Diaspora (at least in the U.S.) witness the step by step enactment of U.S. policies in the Middle East and are fearful of the future and the survival of Armenian independence. We have experts like Mr. Boyajian, the people at the ANC, and others to disclose, explain, and analyze these steps and sound the alarm. Doesn’t our government in Armenia see what is happening and what a dangerous trap it has been dragged in?
I simply want to say that I'm happy to have read David's take on this potential recipe for disaster. A "defend Artsakh fund" will continue accumulating in our household.
Well, guess what, Murat...I've been to Turkey, I've talked w/ literally hundreds of people, at all levels of society, in many parts of the country, not as an Armenian, but as an American....and, when I asked, virtually every one of them told me that 'everyone in Turkey knows what happened to the Armenians; that the government was responsible'. Now, you may want to perpetuate the lies and the racist fantasies of those who carried out and masterminded the genocide, but you should at least acknowledge that you are supporting a band of convicted criminals who were sentenced for their crimes. The members of the CUP who acted against the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire, were not unlike those in Israel today, who are conducting ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians, or those in the Turkish military who have destroyed 3000 Kurdish villages across Anatolia during the last 30 years or the Nazis who destroyed yet another minority group they decided - after hundreds and hundreds of years - they did not like and whose land they decided to steal once they were gone. The sad, underlying fiction is that Turkey itself is a fiction...a stage-set, built on a foundation of stolen cultures and erased peoples, and replaced with a hollow shell, a facade, with very little reality behind it.
"Brought up in the denationalized Soviet educational system, Armenian leaders may be largely unaware of the details of that treachery."
They are full aware. No need to give excuses, Soviet or otherwise.
You really think "tehcir" took place because Ottomans did not "like" Armenians? And you attempt to set others straight? It does not matter how many times you go there and speak to people, if you do not remove your blinders, nothing changes. Hate and bitterness are permenant blinders. You listen to an echo chamber and look into a mirror hall and then pretend to have a grasp of reality. Why don't you actually go and find out what Armenians did to Ottomans and to their country and state, I mean for real. It happened because Ottoman developed a dislike of Armenians!? What a joke. How pathetic, really.
It just scares me to death to think that after so many years we're still in such a precarious situation, and that at any point in time, our national security can be jeopordized by any or all of the players listed in this article. We can't be seen as a bullying Israel of our region, but we have to to be armed to the teeth and prepared for the worst at anytime. We have to be the best fighters. We have to have the advantage.
I just hope that the right people in the right places are ready and prepared.
Look Murat, why don't you tell me what Armenians 'did to Ottomans', and why don't you ever talk about what the Ottomans did to the Armenians? The idea that a minority group with no real power could actually do something to the imperial power of the Ottomans is a bit ridiculous. You also completely refuse to acknowledge that Armenians were an essential part of the history of Anatolia, from the beginning, and that it was their land, their country. The Ottomans, from the beginning, were the invaders, just as the US is the invader in Iraq and Afghanistan: they will never be fully welcomed there by the natives. As the ultimate rulers, the Ottomans had full responsibility to take care of those they ruled, and they actually did it quite well for a very long time, but towards the end, a group of Ottoman nutcases (yes, the policy and decision-makers) decided that pursuing endless wars (thus bankrupting the empire) made more sense than anything else, and when it went badly, felt threatened by their own citizens and sought to blame them for all the ills created by the ruling party's actions. You also ignore that Armenians had no government, they had no army, they had almost no legal rights at all for hundreds of years. The Armenians did not allow the Ottomans to lose huge chunks of the empire, those acts were all attributable to other factors, yet Armenians seem to get blamed for every ill that hit the Ottoman Empire. There is no hate, but there is a recognition of supreme stupidity. The Turks of the Ottoman Empire allowed themselves to be taken over by a group of criminals and then by another quasi-Turkish fascist, known as Ataturk. I feel sorry for real Turks, as they've been used and abused quite a bit, most recently by their own racist, facsist military, which is something else you can't blame on Armenians. Anyone who abuses their own fellow citizens the way the Turkish military has during the 20th C. is as hateful and criminal as those who carried out the genocide of the Armenians. Just because they've had billions of dollars in support from the US doesn't make them nice people, to the contrary, they are criminals, and hopefully, the Turkish people will rise up against their own persecutors, who have lied to the people and committed crimes for many, many years. Who are these people? Instead of being angry about Armenians who need and want the Turkish govt to stop lying about history, you should be much more angry about an evil force within Turkey that has worked very hard to undermine freedom and justice for the Turkish people. Forget the Armenians, you have your hands full with your own countrymen.
Boyajian superbly describes the recalcitrant policies of the US government towards the Artsakh conflict and the conflicting geopolitical alignments in the South Caucasus.
Armenia’s corrupt authorities may soon be pressured to sign a “peace” agreement in order to prolong their illegitimate rule. Belligerent Azerbaijan is then likely to unilaterally launch a war against NKR and Armenia, and Armenian troops (with some Russian support) will react by flattening Ganje (Kirovabad) and marching towards Baku.
The US government is rapidly losing whatever influence it has in Armenia and the region, because it sees things only through the energy-security-trade prism and disrespects the self-determination and independence of Artsakh and its strong people. It also engages in genocide denial and permits hostile Turkic activity and behavior to continue unabated.
It’s no wonder that the US is an empire in decline!
If history teaches us anything, it's that Europe will want to betray us and that the Turks will want to destroy us. The TRUTH is that Armenia has NO friends, Armenia has NO allies, and we need to remind ourselves of that FACT to remain ALERT, DEFENDED and UNCOMPROMISING.
Let me start with Murat.
Kurds and Armenians had lived next to each other for thousands of years. We had our share of enimosity, we did battle each other, and unfortunately we were friends and adversaries for years...but we never intended nor wanted to "exterminate" each other through Genocide(s), until the appearance of uncivilized, violent and murderous marauding grandfathers of Murat and the rest of the turks. So, Murats half hearted attempt to blame things on the Kurds failed, and will fail again in the future. I promise turks, wherever they may be, that they will never succeed using Kurds to do their murders, again, never ever again.
Perouz,
Yes, you are somehow right. But, once again, Kurds that live on historical Armenian lands are basically tribes, who do not own the lands they live on. I cannot stress this point to my Armenian friends. Unfortunately for us Kurds, our tribal system is destroying us, but in another sense, allows us Not to settle permenantly on turkish occupied Armenian lands. We just pass by, and move on. If you do not believe what I write here, you can check with the occupying turkish government, and you'll be surprised to see that about 90% of the Armenian historical lands belong to the turkish government, the rest to absentee turkish landlords. Kurds lease lands for grazing and living, and then they move on.
As for the Kurds using Armenian churches as "stables, or hanging laundry.." etc etc. After turks destroyed these churches, it was the turks, and not Kurds who destroyed these churches, let's be clear about this, and now, unfortunately, some ignorant and uneducated poor people use it for the said purposes. But I assure you that if you go to these Kurds and ask them to stop desecrating these churches, they will stop immediately.
But do not fall victim to the massive turkish propaganda machine, which feeds us nothing but garbage. If you listen(ed) to the turk, they blame anything and everything on the Jews, Germans and Russians...as if they were innocent bylookers. Recently they upped the propaganda to such idiotic levels that suddenly talaat pash, the mass murderer, became a Circassian and a Jew. And now, they are calling Tblisi(capital of Georgia) as a former turkish garisson, according to turks, the name Tblisi comes from "Turkish Bolis" thus shortened "Tblisi".
Ferhat
Murat, your words are manufactuered and made in Turkey, you maybe forcefully and hardly sell them in Asia minor only. I bet you, you are very far from the truth, and that is very sad.
Nostalgia is a wonderful notion. Everyone has a right to have whatever relationship they want with their homeland. Some choose to see the ugliness, others see the beauty.
Do I choose to believe that we live in a dream world, no. But I choose to believe that we live in God's world.
Nostalgia keeps memories alive, and memories are a good thing to have. Moving forward it's nice to be filled with an essence of nostalgia and definitely reality.
Great work Lalai as always. You always stir up much emotions. Keep writing!
Throughout our history, we have been outrageously gullible and undignified! They all shaped us like clay to suit their national interests/needs. The Ottoman Empire oppressed us and massacred us on our own lands, yet we still fell for the Young Turks promise for Democracy, our leaders let their guards down and an entire helpless and defenseless population was dragged to its demise. We believed in the promise of the Europeans to come to our defense. During WWI, the English and Russians positioned their Armenian battalions in the forefront of their armies, taking advantage of our crazed yearning to save our people. Once they won the war, they discarded us like used shoes. Yet we have never raised the issue of this treachery with them. The Turks massacred us under the pretext that we were embedding the Russians, and then the Russians asked the Turks to deliver them Armenia without the Armenians. To show its gratitude for the role the Armenians played in its armies, Russia signed the Kars agreement and gave away more of our lands to Turkey! Yet some of us are banking in the idea that Russia will come to our defense! The US, whose missionaries and ambassador were eyewitnesses to the Genocide, has been duping and playing us for the past 94 years. The hard truth that is staring us in the face is that the US State Department has helped Turkey cover up the Armenian Genocide for the past 94 years. Yet there are Armenian organizations with romantic ideals who refuse to see this and have fooled themselves into thinking that the "US knows what it's doing". They are aligning themselves with the US policies and endorsing the protocols whose main objective is for the US to secure oil pipelines. Can they be this naive to think that the Turkish government will assist in Armenia's trade and economic advancement? That the US will even care? The Turks abused us, converted some of us to Islam, changed our last names and terrorized the wits out of anyone who searched the Armenian truth. Most Armenians in Turkey do not know what befell their people and have been made intentionally clueless about their past, and yet we are ready to kiss and make up? The Russians forbade nationalism, and the pursuit of our religion, set examples by exiling individuals who tried to uphold our nationality to Siberia, therefore programming the rest into thinking that putting your nationality first was "a very bad thing to do". Yes, it was “bad” for Russia’s interests. I have a friend originally from Armenia who told me the other day that her grandmother used to tell her that everything bad in Armenia was caused by the Tashnaks. She said growing up she was thought that the Tashnaks were bad and to stay away from them. The Armenian people has been blindfolded and morphed into unrecognizable groups of individuals, with erased memories and identities. We have been abused and put down for so long, and by so many nations that we are psychologically distraught, confused and innately programmed into thinking that "others know better". Politics is really not as complicated as some of us chose to think. Politics is the grown up and more dangerous version of kindergarten territorial games. Like David Boyajian, we should all contribute in sounding the alarm about the treacherous path we are again being duped to pursue; especially in Armenia, where individuals have been for so long programmed to not be nationalistic and to only mind the securing of personal needs. This is a very critical turning point for our people. Concessions in any of our interests and rights can very well mean the loss of Artsakh and Armenia.
Hye, Murat, too is a prime example of Turkish citizens who have been mislead, lied to and are unable to comprehend that their Turkish leaders, in addition to their lies, denying the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation, brazenly - before the civilized world, have been lying to their own citizens via their educational system.... Murat has been educated from Turkish history books which have omissions to suit the lies their own leaderships hides from their own Turkish citizens! Actually, pity Murat. Or, he just wants to hear what he believes is the truths - sadly. Civilized nations, Archives of many nations reflect the words recorded by citizens who were witnesses to the horrors and vile treatments of humans by the inhuman Turk; also, the International Genocide organizations, and in the USA, 43 of the 50 states have voted to recognize the Genocide of the Armenians (but sadly our president is politically detoured by the Turkish leaders - and can't see the issue of Genocide as a moral issue. So, Murat, you can rave and rant, but the truths of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation is historically recorded - truths. Yet, there are many in Turkey who are speaking out, bravely, who know of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation... perhaps you shall seek them and if you are able, learn these historical events... the Ottoman Turks perpetrated the Armenian Genocide and all the subsequent Turkish leaderships have lied all these years - to themselves, to the world and you! To seek these truths will take courage, and more... only, if you are able. Manooshag
I'm really happy that our work has been recognized! Our next project is to sell canvas bags to kids so they could color them for their parents. We hope we can prosper well.
I know some story from my grand father , they live south part of turkey which are called Kurdistan . Kurdish and armenian people live together for log year till turkish military service and goverment provocated Some kurdis lords whichone are called ' seh , sih , hoca ' . In turkey some armenian people speak kurdish , Hirat Dink was also Armenian Kurdish , he used to speak kurdis and gave kurdish name on his children , my grandfather say , after war they took some armenian people to his house and give them food , drinkks , there was man who is killed from turkis goverment .
we sre all brother , siter
Boyajian, don't worry, there will not be another war in Artsakh... But do you know why? Because Mosacow won't allow it, and believe it or not Baku isn't foolish enough to attampt what Saakashvili attempted last year. Although I don't wish for bloodshed, I strongly believe that if Baku, for some unforeseen reason, went to war against Artsakh not only will Armenia recognize Artsakh, Moscow will as well. And, most probably, Artsakh's borders will extend further east into Azerbaijan. To tell you the truth, I read a lot of what you write. In my humble opinion, I think you should pick another occupation...
war? now the state dep owned by bankers of a certain ratlike race is threatening us with war again through turk proxys. we will fight again and win again with or without support from russia. Iran will alaways be on our side and we on theirs.
I hope Armenians and Kurds start to build a strong bond. My family was sheltered by Dersim Kurds.
Rich, I have written a lot on this topic here and elsewhere. I am not going to waste my time by "proving" any of my statements for an irrational Russophobic propagandist like you. Many people have said many things throughout history. Your selective use or a single comment, true or not I do nor know, is utterly and completely meaningless when looked upon against the vast background of Armenia's centuries long relationship with Russia. And trust me, there have been thousands of comments by Russians, Czarist and Communist, about Armenians that would make an insecure genocide obsessed Armo like you have an orgasm... why not mention them as well, Rich? Yes, our secessionist revolutionaries had some political problems with the Czar at the time. The Czar even temporarily closed Armenian schools in 1905... But these were merely political problems in a very volatile time and place that were eventually fixed. Nevertheless, our nationalists at the time would not even have existed had it not been for Czarist support. As a matter of fact, from David Bek's nationalistic movement in the 18th century, to our revolutionary movement in the 19th century, to our Soviet republic in the 20th century, to Artsakh and modern Armenia at the turn of the 21th century - we as a nation have been able to exist in the Turkic/Muslim infested region only and only as a result of our close relationship with Russia.
Armenians don't trust Russia? Well, yes I agree, ideally we should only trust ourselves. But seeing many ignorant, irrational and absurd individuals representing our nation, when it comes to Armenia's long-term survival - I have trained myself to trust Moscow instead. As I have been saying, you prove once again, that Armenians may be brilliant scholars, businessmen and artists (not that you are any of the aforementioned), but are total idiots when it come to politics...
I would like to congratulate Jason Sohigian on this detailed, factual, and timely report. It will hopefully raise further interest in the development of renewable energy in Armenia.
Good article but the beginning to be updated because the natural gas pipeline coming from Iran has already been completed and we currently, since last April, recieve gas from Iran as well. Maybe the author was thinking of the oil pipeline which is being built.
This is great news. Congratulations to Mr. Dagdigian. We should encourage all to enroll in courses such as these, and encourage other qualified individuals to teach such courses elsewhere.
David Boyajian's commentary should sober up those Armenians who despite every historic betrayal, think that the U.S. and Russia are benevolent saviors who will protect us.
Dear Knarik, a nice story, typical 'Hearty Armenian.'
Let us hear more from you.
With all the sun and wind of open spaces in Armenia, solar and wind power would seem to be good sources of energy. It is wonderful that Armenia is blessed to have so many highly trained and educated people working with dedication to help the country into the future. It would be great not to be dependent on foreign oil or gas!
Who is going to protect us? You, Koko? Or your "Aga-ner" from "Burjhamood"? Where were you when our beloved Armenia needed your "Agan-er" in the early 1990s? Where were your brave Dashnak "engerner" at the time? How many of you "nationalists" went to Armenia to fight the much hated and despicable Turk? Out of well over a hundred thousand "nationalistic" and "brave" "Libananahais" only a dozen or two went? Out of about several million big talking diasporans only a dozen or two went? When you wake up one day you will realize that "Rusatsats" Armenians of Armenia, Artsakh and Russia were the ones that defeated the Turks - with the support of the Kremlin. You are partially right, forget about America they are fully in bed with our enemies, but without Kremlin officials behind our back not even a million "Koko"s like you can stop the Caucasus from turning into a Turkic Islamic cesspool.
When you are a tiny, resource-less, landlocked and impoverished nation surrounded by enemies in the most volatile place on earth you will need the help of others to survive. Thank God we have Russians, even with all their faults, to help us weather the harsh Caucasus climate.
Sure, the Kurds and Armenians will never fight again, but you did fight during WW1. Or, more specifically, Kurds and Armenians massacred each other's civilians.
Your hatred of Turks is absurd... It's amazing that two peoples who have committed atrocious acts on their own (like practically all peoples of any note in history) could point so many fingers yet not on any occasion recognize their own misdeeds.
Their is no Armenian Genocide until there is a Turkish Genocide at the hands of Armenians, Greeks, Bulgars, etc. There is no massacre of Kurds in Dersim by Turks unless it is admitted that worse massacres of Armenians -- and in that case largely without any cause other than greed and malice -- by Kurds occurred. If you want to define words in a certain way, you must be consistent about their application. Either the Turks suffered an equal genocide at the hands of the Christians of their multi-ethnic and remarkably tolerant empire as it crumbled, or no genocide occurred at all to either party. Have it your way, if you like, but be consistent.
And when are the Armenians going to face up to the Circassian Genocide? How can you go around pointing fingers when you haven't faced your own past? What does Jesus say? He says to pluck the log out of your eye before you worry about the sliver in your neighbor's eye.
Kurds and Armenians would have a much easier time of it if they would be honest with themselves. Their ancestors were not saints, and are certainly no less blameworthy than the Turks. The fact that the Turks won, or, rather, that the Armenian rebellion failed miserably and the Kurdish terrorists are perpetually ineffectual, and developed a successful nation state is not a legitimate reason for painting them as the bad guys. Not all losers are saints, and not all victors are bad guys.
yes Good article but solar PVs are not green or smart
I have recently returned from 3 1/2 years in Armenia in the Peace Corps. I would like to visit an Armenian Church near the north side of Chicago, occasionally talk in Armenian to someone, and perhaps present a talk-slideshow on my life there.
Hey avetis,
Your medication is running low. Are you that insecure about yourself and position that you need to call everyone who disagrees with you "idiots'? There is no such thing as permenant ally. No one in essence has helped the Armenians. To the contrary. Not the Europeans, Americans or Russians. The Russians have a monetary vested interest as they own parts of Armenian infrastructure. To that degree they help the Armenians however things always change and therefore it would be unwise to assume they will come to the rescue in case of war. Yes the self serving Armenian oligarghs also need to go. However, reyling upon others is a mistake and would lead one to believe that we have not learned the lessons of the past. Trust none other then ourselves.
FROM:Uncle garagett's note book
Lo! The Prophet
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature’s inexhaustible sources of energy—sun, wind, and tide. … I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.
—Thomas Edison in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone (1931)
Hey Ferhat,
As for many of you (except for Philly and one or two others), you haven't a clue what you're talking about, do you? The protocols were the first main step for normalization of relations between not only Turkey and Armenia, but with Armenia and Azerbaijan. What would this have meant for Armenia? Well, if you'd take off the blinders of hate and turn off a century of propaganda, you might be able to see the vision of the future. This future consists of better relations with ALL Moslem nations (this is a test case for them, if you still haven't figured it out!). This would lead to an increase in trade and economy, better exchanges of culture and ideas, more commerce and travel, just to name a few. All of this would have been a boon to Armenia's economy! Your President Sarkissian saw the potential of this and wanted to move forward. But, with your selfishness and hate indoctrination (which has long since been ingrained into your very beings), all you've really accomplished is the slitting of your own economic throats on an international scale! You talk about Russia. Okay. How long do you believe Putin and Russia will stick by you? Basically, only until you're no longer of any use to them! As for Iran, they're simply paying you "lip service". They're an Islamic theocracy and will go with other Islamic nations before they have anything to do with you. As for the French and other European nations, Once their bribed officials are out of power, that'll be the end of them blindly cow-towing to you. You'll soon find out that you're going to be pretty much all alone in the world. But hey, that's what you wanted, and that's what you're all going to get. Instead of coming up with hate-filled excuses, how about trying to listen to the voices of reason for once. Fools, you're your own worst enemy and you don't even know it!! What am I getting so excited about anyway...it's not my country!
Hey editorial staff, are you going to censor this too? Nothing vulgar or deragatory in this post. But, you'll probably delete it as usual. Let's wait and see.
Justin, you are misguided and wrong, that is very bad for everybody.
Justin, you are soooo ignorant !
It is so practical, for ignorants like you, to say that no genocide has occured, that it was everybody's fault,
that all crimes are equal...
I am sorry for the money your parents paid for your school. Buy the way, which school was it, in order for my family to avoid sending our kids there ?
Nice work, Jason. Good article overall, worthy of the Weekly.
I was just wondering: in your introduction, you mention many types of alternative energy, including geothermal for which you mention a recent grant, but there's no mention of it on the rest of the text. Knowing that Armenia has a fairly thin crust (earthquakes and the like), one has to ask why the underlaying heat has not been tapped until now. I once heard from someone who had worked in the major geological survey of Armenia that was done in the 1970's and 1980's, that some 10 or twelve sites had been identified as potential emplacements for geothermal stations, with a combined output of more that 5000MW. Any news on that front?
As Mr. Erdoğan recalled last week: “Seeing one’s own citizens as a threat, categorizing them into different camps and devising plots in that direction are things from another century. This is not worthy of a modern country or an advanced understanding of democracy.” If nothing else, this is good news from Turkey.
My favorite part of Justin's incoherent ramblings; that Armenians are responsible for Circassians being dislodged from the northern Caucasus.
What do you mean when you refer to the Circassian genocide? I read posts by Armenians talking about Russian expansionism, comparable to the Spanish conquistadors, when many Indo-european and Turkic tribes were exterminated in order to seize their land. He mentioned that many of the names of these tribes have been lost to history; also a book on Russian history I have said this topic would take another book to discuss it. I think it would be very interesting for that book to be written. The Spanish almost wiped out entire Indian civilizations in the americas.
Re: the Circassian genocide, there are a few articles on the internet. One is quoted below: almost 95% of the Circassians were genocided.
From" Circassian Genocide" by Antero Leitzinger: you can read the rest on the internet as well as other articles.
"Summary: The genocide committed against the Circassian nation by Czarist Russia in the 1800s was the biggest genocide of the nineteenth century. Yet it has been almost entirely forgotten by later history, while everyone knows the later Jewish Holocaust and many have heard about the Armenian genocide. "Rather than of separate, selectively researched genocides, we should speak of a general genocidal tendency that affected many – both Muslim and Christian – people on a wide scene between 1856 and 1956, continuing in post-Soviet Russia until today", writes Antero Leitzinger. This article was originally published in "Turkistan News".
The Circassian Genocide
By Antero Leitzinger
A professor of the university of Munich (München), Karl Friedrich Neumann (not to be confused with the later Naumann), wrote in 1839 a book titled "Russland und die Tscherkessen" (published in the collection "Reisen und Länderbeschreibungen", vol. 19, in 1840). He describes, how Russia settled Christians to the parts of Armenia gained from Persia in 1828 - actually, Neumann had written about the issue already in 1834. (p. 68-69) Neumann considered this a very sound policy and predicted, that all Caucasus would become under firm Russian rule within the next decades. (p. 125) European powers would not intervene, because it was the destiny of all Europe to rule over the lands of Turks, Persians, and Hindus. (p. 129-130)
Neumann was no racist, but he certainly advocated colonialism and was a Russophile in relation to the southern lands. He had a Darwinist approach many years before Charles Darwin or Herbert Spencer presented their ideas. This appears to have been more typical to 19th century German thought than any anti-Armenian sentiments. Neumann makes it clear in his very first words of the preface: "The European humanity is selected by divinity as ruler of the earth." "
Also, USA had its believers in manifest destiny, white man's burden.
My books say the German's had the intention of taking over Turkey (as well as the entire world) and replacing the Armenians who were in high places; and no doubt the Turks themselves. I think Ataturk realized this.
Ataturk had fought with Talat Pasha and the other two for power. He went to Germany to investigate and was suspicious of the Germans. You will note Turkey tried to save itself from German invasion in WWII and remained neutral. He was right to be suspicious; the Nazis would have made all non-whites slaves or worse.
I want to add that the also tragic population transfer of Greeks also occurred. I read further that Ataturk, being a child of the Balkans, knew the deep seated hatreds of the Balkans and wanted to prevent that by population tranfer; however, we see that did not solve the problem. Now for Turkey to find a solution to how to deal with minorities, if it can. Obviously, the deep seated hatreds and wars between the minorities is a problem looking for a solution. It was probably worse in these Balkan countries and was also in Turkey, needing tolerance and laws enforcing it.
Avetis is the same defeatist brainwashed Armenian who fell for the "Russians are on our side" slogan a hundred years ago. We don't have allies just common interests with not only Russia but Iran. Iran in fact has been a more trustworthy partner than Russia or any other country. Who helped us herd the mongols out of our lands. Not Russia. russia was sending pilots to bomb Armenian towns to keep the war going and make it more brutal to prevent a sooner resolution. We have two options join Russia in a loose confed or have more balls and not be greedy and self govern. We in the diaspora only blame the soviet style leaders of Armenia who are worried about wealth rather than Armenian success as a united people. But are our Armenian leaders here in America any different? Are they not the same greedy corrupt type of leader bought out not by Russia but by jew banking interests? We need to clean house then we'll be able to defend ourselves and our lands without asking for help from allies. Allies will come to you if you are powerful but when you're corrupt and weak you will need to seek allies.
Avetis, with all due respect, do you realize what you are saying? You said "there will not be another war in Artsakh… But do you know why? Because Mosacow won’t allow it, and believe it or not Baku isn’t foolish enough to attampt what Saakashvili attempted last year. "
If that is so, then Karabagh does not need an army. Neither does Armenia if you truly believe that Russia will always defend Armenia. No danger means no army is needed. That's is what you imply when you go overboard in your support of Russia. No one is saying that Russia is not important to Armenia. But you put all of Armenia's eggs in one basket - Russia.
I remember that Moscow was the one who gave Karabagh and the region of Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan and Russia sided with Azerbaijan at first in the Karabagh war. I don't trust Russians 100% at all but you seem to, in spite of all the bad history. It's one thing to see another country as an ally but it's another thing to put all your faith in them. I know that some of these things took place under communism but many of the same leaders are still in place in Russia, like Putin.
Anyway, why did you want the Diasporan Hyes to go to Karabagh to fight? In your opinion, Armenians and Russians (or Russians alone) were able to defend Karabagh and did not need outside help. Even if Diaspora hyes had gone in large numbers, I think you'd maybe be claiming that not enough went, or that Diasporans weren't needed. You seem to be out to damage diasporans.
Armenia has never invited Diasporans to help out on anything. Armenia's leaders just want the Diaspora to send over cash and supplies. That sort of give me cash or shut up attitude is something like what you are expressing. All this bitterness and seething anger by you against the Diaspora. You would think that the Diaspora is Armenia's enemy.
Great article, Glad to see Armenia is doing so much.
Armenia should not have friends or enemies, just interests. As a landlocked, tiny, impoverished nation surrounded by enemies in one of the most hostile geopolitical environments on earth, Armenia’s survival interests dictate a close strategic partnership with Russia – for the foreseeable future. Armenia’s pro-Russia policies coupled with its unique geopolitical positioning in the Caucasus today serves Moscow’s long-term geostrategic interests, as it has been for the past several hundred years. The worst that can happen in this scenario is if Moscow one-day wants to incorporate Armenia into its federation.
From billions in investments in the Armenian economy to providing cheep nuclear fuel and gas/oil, from protecting Armenia’s border with Turkey to providing Armenia’s military with cheep (often free) military hardware and training, from giving Armenia diplomatic protection in the UN to making sure Azerbaijan does not attack Artsakh, from recognizing the Armenian Genocide to giving Armenian migrant worker easy access to their economy – what more do we want from these people? What the hell has America, “the beacon of freedom and democracy”, done for Armenia other than conspire with our enemies? What the hell have we big talking Armenians of the diaspora done to compare with what Russia has been doing for Armenia?
As long as Turks and Muslims, not to mention Zionists and Globalists/Internationalists, infest the regions south of the Caucasus, Russia will have a vested interest in allying itself with Armenia. Nevertheless, had it not been for Kremlin officials not only would we be lamenting the loss of Artsakh today we would probably be lamenting the loss of the Armenian Republic as well.
I will consider trusting Russia only when its leaders will come clean about the fact that Stalin had awarded the Armenian enclave of Karabagh to Azerbaijan and that it should therefore be rewarded back to Armenia now that the Soviet Union has fallen. The Russians have on the contrary contributed to the Azerbaijani prpaganda of Kaeabagh being an occupied territory within the Azerbaijani borders. Can we just give up on others to do us right and just rely on ourselves?
Notice two of the irrational comments above. They speak for themselves"
By Avetis: Armenians "are total idiots when it come to politics…".
And by Robert: "As for many of you (except for Philly and one or two others), you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about, do you? ... Instead of coming up with hate-filled excuses, how about trying to listen to the voices of reason for once. Fools, you’re your own worst enemy and you don’t even know it!! What am I getting so excited about anyway…it’s not my country!"
Justin or whatever your turkish name is... . Since your greatfather was a terrorist and he butchered thousands of Armenians and Kurds, and mind you, your brothers and uncles are still killing innocent Kurds today. You just assasinated Hrant Dink, and just a few days ago you imprisoned a small Kurdish girl who weighs a mere 77lb. for 7-8 years .and you have got the b-lls calling Kurds terrorists? Did you know that your dear erdogan, before becoming th premier, was on the world "terror watch list?" for his connections to the Afghan terroris Hekmetyar? What kind of bellicose and garbage filled post was that?
And you want your Genocidal turkey to join the European union?
Ferhat
PS: Arm. Weekly kindly allow my post to be seen by all Genocidal turks, whose killing machines are still up and running..
I am so worried about over there , [Armenia, Artsakh, our Land our People]. Who can we trust who can we rely upon? There are a persons who do see and care, aside from our own, like the Baroness Carolyn Cox, there are others. But what nation? I see none.
You mentioned Artsakh and Nakhichevan being given away to the wild people, leaving that canyon road to connect separated Armenian cities, so it could be snapped off at any time. Now we have in office someone who, it seems, has muslem sympathy and allegiance. I worry every day.
Hye robert and murat, two prime examples of the Turks who have been educated in the Turkish leaderships' lies. The Turkish history books lie to the students, the turkish history books lie to their own citizens, even lie to themselves in creating/discarding their own history..
Turkey shows a brazen leadership which is hiding the truths of their decayed,
decaying and decitful government... all this shall bring down this convoluted Turkish government.
Too, Turkey has yet to join all the civilized nations of the world. Turkey makes/breaks alliances like the are toothpicks... Turkey acts as mediator for other nations - imagine - a nation unable to retain
alliances dares to offer to mediate other civilized nations! And for this robert and murat give their allegiance instead of seeking to replace such leaders. Turkey will only join the civilized nations of the world when the current liars, their leaderships, are removed/replaced as was the Nazis of Germany
after WWII...
Today I read of a 15year old Kurdish girl, in the wrong place at the wrong time, did/did not toss
pebbles (supposedly) at some police as she was on her way to visit family. She has been punished excessively and is in a vile Turkish jail... 15 YEARS OF AGE, A GIRL, A KURD.... Shades of the movie
MIDNIGHT EXPRESS!
What manner of judges - would place a 15 year old girl, a Kurd in a Turkish jail for tossing pebbles?
This can only happen in a Turkey whose forbears were from the Asian mountains - and never joined the civilized nations of the world - despite all their efforts to 'glitter' as a democracy... These judges shall know their actions are beyond intelligent and reasonable laws - which do not exist in Turkey.
This epitomizes the nature of the Turks - as they dealt with all the nations whom they eliminated or
worse, kidnapped, raped and destroyed. The turk is the turk is the turk....
murat and robert you shall find those want to change your leaderships - else you too shall be as the
judges who jailed the 15 year old Kurdish girl to the hellish jails of Turkey.
Manooshag
Thanks, but really no, thank you.
Perhaps Obama and his administration should keep the proposed $40 million in aid to Armenia, and instead, lift off US State Department diplomatic pressure and arm twisting a tiny landlocked country. In return, Obama should consider redirecting US State Department pressure on Turkey to lift its 17 years-old hostile-blockade.
Now that Georgia is deemed unreliable and unstable by the West as a gateway to Central Asian gas & oil, Armenia's geo-strategic importance as the only viable alternative is certainly worth more than the meager pocket change proposed by President Obama.
Compared to the billions of US aid and US investments in Georgia, the US should try much harder with Armenia.
Don't be foolish . . . there is considerable truth in what Jon Bjerkness writes. Talaat, the Bey brothers, Ataturk, were Jews. The Young Turks were financed by wealthy Jews. These are facts. The question we have to ask ourselves NOW is . . . why does Israel and the powerful Israel Lobby aid Turkey in their quest to deny the Armenian people a thimbles worth of Justice? WHY???? We should demand an answer.
Arsen, I think you oversimplified Avetis's analysis.
But on the bit about Diaspora Hyes: I'm pretty sure he (and I) would welcome Diaspora Armenians fighting in Artsakh and Kharabagh (in fact, when they do so -- we embrace them enthusiastically). The problem is, you don't...but yet somehow talk up a big game about war and closed borders and tough measures -- all of which might be (emphasis on might be) good politics...it's just weird coming from people who live comfortable lives in Boston and New Jersey...
Most of the Diaspora thinks Armenians from Armenia are an unpatriotic bunch, and it is up to them to save it -- often by doing things and embracing policies that the majority of the population is against. And also...many Diaspora Armenians (too many) actually hold on to the insane idea that Diasporan Armenians won the war in Artsakh, and that they supported it more than Armenians in Armenia.
The narrative Diaspora Armenians have painted themselves is that in 1991...when we gained independence...the Diaspora "re-educated" Hayastantsis in patriotism. That couldn't be further from the truth.
The US state department can keep their BLOOD MONEY. Kudos Berge, well said.
Heres the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UFxNc4RiQw <--listen to the first part "The Hayastantsis had no patriotism, etc."
It's so unfortunate that a Fidayi's wife is saying those things, especially to that crowd, who is equally mislead. I know some Fidayi wives in Armenia that could refute everything she said in that first part. In fact, I know about 500,000 people on the streets of Yerevan in 1988 that could refute that nonsense that she was spewing.
Thank you for this article! I just donated again!
Oh please! Is this the payoff for our community to stay quiet or is it chump change to placate anger over the Obama administration's pathetic attempt at "real change". Nice try but no cigar.
Keep the change you spineless cowards you'll need it to pamper your visiting turkish masters in dc.
Except for a few hardcore Dashnaks and other nationalists, the war was fought and won by young men from Armenia and Artsakh.
The proposed US Aid does not help Armenia; in reality it is corruption-money. Armenia should reject this offer - and send a message back to the US State department that complicity in genocide denial is not acceptable; tacitly supporting Turkey's hostile blockade for the past 17 years is not acceptable; and coercing Armenia to capitulate on a TARC or Protocols will not work.
Why would you mention all these efforts and not mention AGBU's $50,000 donation to Haiti relief?
I feel sorry about the fact that armenians are poised by occuption feelings. you are thinking of occupying other's soil only. In Caucasus, the ruling nation is TURKS. You should not forget it. Besides,we are not Georgia that Russia attacked us. Russia cannot do that because we are TURKS. Tatars mainly and other Turkish-speaking nations will support Azerbaijan in that case. At the same time, Russia and Azerbaijan are great friends and energy partners. Azerbaijan is a strong energy nation. Russia would not damage ties with Azerbaijan becasue of armenians. But time will come and we will restore our power on Karabag land. Tanri Turku korusun!
I guess with this news we are supposed to be forever thankful
to the genocide scholar from Harvard who encouradged us to vote
in favor of this "presidency from hell"?
Dear Hrag, my bad -- I meant to include it. It is a huge sum and I will try and update the article. Thank you for pointing that out.
Sometimes I wonder if our politicians in diaspora and in the homeland have a knowledge of the past history, and if we will ever learn to play the game. In Us and abroad I have heard variations upon variations of ideas that are very naive and confusing. It seems our cart gets pulled and pushed like before from both sides, and still we think in leaning to one side we will achieve our goal. To learn to use our strength and knowledge takes courage and visionary thinking, which I do not see neighther in diaspora nor in Armenia. Look out boys, bickering does not pay, be realistic and have courage. What America gives to Armenia is nothing compared what they take from Armenia and Armenians. The same goes for the Russians. Wake up. They can stuff their pittance. The arena is open. I would like to see young, healthy, visionary, intelligent and CUNNING leaders to appear on the horizon, to guide and pursue our political interests.
Hy, turkoglu, you only know violence, lies, bullying and stealing the lands of others. Sadly, your bravery (and manhhood) is still well expressed when you commit your Genocides - against unarmed, against Christians - still.
Manooshag
P.S. Turkish judges, obscenely, have now jailed a young girl child, 15years old Kurdish girl to years in the vilest of all jails known to mankind which are in Turkey (shades of movie MIDNIGHT EXPRESS). These judges, exemplify still the Ottoman Turk and all your subsequent Turkish leader' mentality, in their inhumanity to humans - today a Kurdish girl child... because she is a Kurd.
The aftermath of the quake and human suffering are devastating! Millions have lost everything – homes, food, jobs! For the next 12 months, the World Food Programme says 2 million people will need critical food assistance! If you want to help and learn more about the crisis response, go to: http://wfp.org/crisis/haiti> or you can text FRIENDS to 90999 to make a $5 donation.
Thanks for revising it, Nanore.
The Anonymous people of Massachusetts have spoken! More to follow.
I really don't think that the Diaspora Armenians believe they were responsible for winning the war. I don't. In fact I and all the Diaspora Armenians I talk to are humbled and very proud of the Armenians who fought and lost lives in defending Karabagh. Having said that, I have always proposed the ability of the Diaspora youth to serve several years in the Armenian Army. This would greatly benefit everyone. The Diaspora however, besides sending money/supplies etc, is responsible for advancing Armenian interest by educating others of the Genocide and promoting pro-Armenian political agendas in the rest of the world. Our U.S lobby has become quite formidable and can't be ignored politically. The whole reason for this effort is for the benefit of Armenia and it’s citizens with very little in return personally. It should also be noted that a part of the hardships in Armenian are self induced as a result of the self serving ruling oligarchs who’s real interests are lining their own pockets. The point in all this is: For far too long Armenians have been divided. I am convinced that had we been more together it would have been more difficult to perpetrate that Genocide. That divide must end. Instead of blaming each other or relying upon other, such as Russia, we must rely upon ourselves and come to an understanding of one goal, the prosperity and well being of all Armenians and the final and just resolution for the Armenian Genocide.
To Osman, I feel sorry for your state that has done nothing but occupy, rape, murder and steal all others through out your history and then deliberately create fantasy fairytale stories to keep your people stupid on top of it…………..
Let me get this straight, Henry: If an Artsakhtsi, a fedayi's wife or a villager on the borderlands say what this commentary says (and we've read plenty of articles in which they have), then it's valid. But, somehow, such commentary becomes invalid if its said by anyone else, much less a Diasporan Armenian?
Henry, what majority of Hayastansis are you referring to who embrace the Protocols? Oligarchs? Armenians employed by Soros? Media outlets who receive grants from Western organizations and quote interviewees who agree with the views they want to propagate? You are insulting the intelligence of the Armenian Weekly reader.
Good write up Nanore and thanks for updating the article with the AGBU's commendable donation.
Now if only the AGBU could stick to their philanthropic mandate as a non-political organization in rightly addressing such efforts, what a wonderful world this would be...
It's simply bribe money meant to work towards political ends... Have any of you looked into how Washington's money has been spent in Armenia for the past twenty years? I think Armenia can do without it. By the way, why is it that when the so-called "oligarchs" do things like this it's called "bribery" or "corruption" but when Washington does it its called "aid" or "support"?
If Diasporan Armenians wish to have a significant say in the affairs of this country they should come and live here.Period.No argument.Thats called democracy!!
Hye, sadly I fear for Berivan, the 15 year old Kurdish girl, sentenced by Turkish judges to years in the vile jails of Turkey (shades of MIDNIGHT EXPRESS) . Obscenely judged and sentenced by the same mentality that still permeats the Turks - a child, in a Turkish jail, because she is a Kurd. Shame upon the Turkish nation for still maintaining their Ottoman mentality, centuries after they'd come down from the Asian mountains - still in the mountains - mentally. Shame on supposedly learned men,
judges, brave men who have charged and jailed Berivan.
Manooshag
Thank you Harut. All of your recommendations are constructive.However one of the most critical lessons that cannot be ignored in addition to those you have listed above, is for us Diasporan's to never underestimate the importance of democratic reform and its necessary evolution in a country like Armenia.The Diaspora must be much less accommodating with Armenian officials who turn a blind eye to issues of corruption, transparency, human rights, accountability and the rule of law.
AR said:
"Except for a few hardcore Dashnaks and other nationalists, the war was fought and won by young men from Armenia and Artsakh."
What an absurd tatement! As if any truly serious person has claimed otherwise. I myself have never run across such a person and even if you can point to a few, so what? Everyone knows who fought in Karabagh. Let us not let this discusssion verge into the absurd, AR.
By the way, some of you guys work at Harvard University (that was in the hated Diaspora the last time I looked) doing "reconciliation" work for NATO. How are things going there?
Armenian-Americans and Armenians worldwide should by now identify that the **US State Department** which attempted to divide Armenians by forcing a TARC (Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Committee) few years ago; is the same **US State Department** that failed to fool Armenians with its latest attempt to force Armenia to accept the Protocols.
And, this is the same **US State Department** that is actively blocking recognition of the Armenian genocide in the US Congress; and the very same **US State Department** that has tacitly supported Turkey's hostile blockade for 17-years; and finally this is the same **US State Department** that has all along exerted hostile diplomatic pressure and arm twisting a tiny land locked nation of 3 million.
Armenian-Americans should reject Obama's proposed $40 million US "Aid" (corruption money) and send a message back to the **US State Department** that complicity in genocide denial is not acceptable; tacitly supporting Turkey’s hostile blockade for the past 17 years was not acceptable; and coercing Armenia to capitulate on a TARC or Protocols will not work.
"A Diaspora-wide leadership must be elected to reflect properly the views of the majority of Armenians on crucial issues. Such a mechanism would facilitate the transmission of credible feedback from the Diaspora to Armenia’s leaders and to governments and international organizations. Further details will be presented on this important topic in a future column."
Planning to run for office Mr. Sassounian? ;)
This sounds extremely difficult. Who would monitor the elections? Would we have to negotiate with the Armenian government in terms of what role this new elected person will play? How do you decided who can vote? And what if foreign entities like the CIA, KGB, MI6, or the Armenian Assembly decide to get involved?
Interesting Osman. The Abkhaz and Armenians are friends and remain pro-Russian. The Chechen terrorists have almost been completely eradicated though there is a really large Chechen contingent that is now part of the Russian army and even fought against Georgia in the August 2008 war. Russia has good relations with both Armenian and Azerbaijan. Your comments are way off the mark.
"Let me get this straight, Henry: If an Artsakhtsi, a fedayi’s wife or a villager on the borderlands say what this commentary says (and we’ve read plenty of articles in which they have), then it’s valid. But, somehow, such commentary becomes invalid if its said by anyone else, much less a Diasporan Armenian?
Henry, what majority of Hayastansis are you referring to who embrace the Protocols? Oligarchs? Armenians employed by Soros? Media outlets who receive grants from Western organizations and quote interviewees who agree with the views they want to propagate? You are insulting the intelligence of the Armenian Weekly reader."
Ghazaros,
I suggested none of those things...so no. I think you misunderstood what I was saying (I wasn't even talking about the Protocols, which I oppose).
John,
"the people of Armenia are lazy, that is why there is so much unemployment"
"The Diaspora won the Artsakh war, single handedly."
"why do we send aid to Armenia, why dont we send aid to Armenians in Lebanon?"
"you're a hayastantsi? I'm sorry to hear that."
"if it wasn't for Diaspora Armenians keeping the idea of independence alive, the people of Armenia would have never gotten it."
These are just four statements I thought of off the top of my head that kids in AYF, all Dashnaks, have said to me, to my face. The absurdity of these sentiments is only exacerbated by the fact that they are 1) not true, and in fact reflect quite the opposite, 2) anti-Diaspora sentiment in Armenia never reaches such absurd levels, so it's not a "blame" game.
I could go on, but I agree with you, so I'll end here.
This is a silly proposition by Mr. Sassounian on many levels. Firstly, it is being assumed here that the diaspora actually knows what it's doing, which is silly. The diaspora can't even administer itself, and it thinks it is qualified to give Armenia any advice? And as my favorite Levonakan stated above, this proposal will also quickly run into serious obstacles, such foreign agents maneuvering to have a representation within such a body... After all, isn't that the current case with the ARF and Armenian Assembly (penetrated by the CIA) and the Armenian government (penetrated by the FSB)? Finally, officials in Armenia must be responsible only for their citizens. What if a certain policy conflicts with diasporan desires, as in the current case with the so-called protocol? Officials in Yerevan, as well as many sane Armenians today, believe that the protocol can potentially lead to Armenia's progress and development. What gives the genocide obsessed minds in the diaspora (a vast majority of whom could careless about the republic) the right to demand anything?
Let's all realize that the diaspora is a dead end, and that is a best case scenario. Some of you yahoos make it seem as if the Armenian diaspora has been around for centuries. The fact is, the Armenian diaspora is not even a hundred years old and it is already dying. I don't consider the vibrant Armenian community of Iran a real diaspora because it is close to Armenia both physically and spiritually, but even they are gradually diminishing. Had it not been for the influx of Middle Eastern and former Soviet Armenians the diaspora in the West would have been dead a long time ago. While it exists the diaspora's one and only task is to - unconditionally - support the homeland. None of your complaints about Armenia or excuses about why the diaspora does not do this or that are acceptable in this discussion. The fact of the matter is Armenia today is surviving, as it has for the past two hundreds years, as a result of its native population's strenght and perseverance as well as its close ties with Russia. In the big global picture, compared to what the diaspora could have done for Armenia it has done next to nothing. If you see yourself as an Armenian living in the diaspora, you have one priority in life: to have a spiritual/physical connection to the Armenian homeland, regardless of how much the homeland and/or its people may disgust you. If you live in the diapora and do not have, and more importantly, do not seek a physical connection to the homeland you would be better of assimilating as soon as possible. The Armenian nation does not need and can do without such individuals.
While diasporan Armenians should enjoy full rights in their ancestral homeland no diasporan Armenian has the right to demand or expect anything from the Armenian government - if he/she is not ready to live in Armenia. After it is all said and done realize that the Armenian population in Armenia will have to live with the consequences of government policy - not you in the diaspora. The Armenian state will not be and cannot be the diaspora's laboratory experiment.
Hey Henry, Mr. Sassounian's weekly columns already properly reflect
the views of the majority of Diaspora Armenians on crucial issues so
if he were in fact elected to such a body his insight would be credible
and his experience invaluable. He would be an integral member of any
such group that's for sure. RA officials would be better informed
about the Diaspora if they just read his columns more closely.
Arsen:
Calm down, I was just adding to what Henry had said. The Diaspora played an important part in the defense of Artsakh, nobody is doubting that.
Charles, I see your point. However, with the same token, the Armenian government cannot give itself the right or liberty to decide for the Diasporan Armenians the fate of lost lands, property and grievances in the Western Armenian lands where most of the Diasporan Armenians come from.
We are all right and we are all wrong, because we are all bringing onto the table the different perspectives and experiences of a people torn apart by war and Genocide. We now have to work together on the very difficult but unavoidable task of creating a common experience that will unite us. To do this, we have to come up with a well defined and thought of system that allows for an inclusive dialogue between the intellectuals, lawyers, historians, professionals of Armenia and the Diaspora that unveil and address all the international facets of our complicated existence as Armenians, so that the decision we come up with on important matters involving our homeland and our people are done transparently and with the unequivocal welfare of our people in mind. If for one second, I as a Diasporan believed that opening the borders will result in Turkey conducting a fair study of the Genocide and acknowledging it like Germany acknowledged the Holocaust, and that Turkey will actually start consuming Armenian goods and allow the Armenian economy to take flight, I and most of the Armenian people would have put aside our feelings regarding Turkey and have welcomed the protocols with open arms. However, after all the hardships and lies that have festered our history, we need to be weary and recognize a poisoned apple especially when the culprits of the past are describing it as heavenly and are pushing us to take a bite. All of this would have been avoided, if the dishonestly crafted protocols were not agreed on by the leaders of the Armenian government. For the good of Armenia and the Armenian people, the protocols should have only said that the borders will reopen and diplomatic ties will resume between the two countries. The historical commission, the legality of the borders etc.... all dishonest traps and preconditions that the Armenian government should have never agreed to.
Dear arut,
Not oly do I read your columns,but also I watch you on USArmenia "interviews"Splendid both.
Like I have said before you are our ex-officio spokesman.Now than w/ref. to your above article.
t is quite clear that you also feel and point out to the vacuum that the Diaspora has.There is no such a thing as Leadership per se.If the present Spiritutal and political parties are referred to as such,just read what a Mr. Hakob Vartivarian has publiczed on a few Armenian web forums re the unfrtunate fiasco by one of our politicfal arties...
However, if a TRUE Leadership is what you imply, then that can ONLY BE ATTAINED BY PARTICIPATION AD REPRESENTATION.No, not by just present above referred to, with all due resect to the.For I am not one that does not appreciate wat they have achieved so far,albeit this one or similar mentioned fiascos.We ought to be thankful ad greatfull to them BUT WE NEEDE ORE MUCH MORE>
BOTH HUMAN RESOURCES AND ECONOMIC POWER OF THE DIASPRA RESIDES IN MORE THAN A 100,000 ARMENIAN PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE(NON-PARTISAN AD LEFT TO DRIFT AWAY0.THESE ARE THE FUTURE OF OUR NATIONAHOOD ACTORS/ACTIVISTS. Namely-5 of them already formed and on the scene .1.The Heath -Medical,2.The Engineers &Scieces3.THE BAR,The sportive and the Jewellers(latter ought to enlap, furishings ande furnitures.10 moreto be foremed:- Below I shall number them.These can be further developed in each Armenian dense Township or district, say L.A. with its surrounding areas, S.Francisco ,Marseilles, Beirut, Paris, Lyon B-Aires etcf., In each of said hubs the aforementioned "Colleagues Associations" wll eect from amongst themselves-regardless of pertinency and in fact including dual pertinency(of exisiting above ) with only one difference that partisan p[ropaganda ought not to be allowed within the "Professioal Colleagues Associations0 That they can do in their circles.
From Each of these (16 fields of professions) ,aside from their boardsAS NOVELTY-Only 3 person Delegates would be elected, as ther ELITE to a CEntral Council,admitting within the 3 person delegates officaly from our 3/4 Political arties and one each from our 3 Spiritual Denominations-by the by, all these I have many a time over described in my web page-now under re-costruction as well as it was omn the official Page of the Minsitry of the RA Foreign Affars ,aong with half dozen others for 4.5 yeaqrs (Armeniadiaspora.com ) now discontinued...
Then from each Community country(Gaghout one each from the 16 fields(the 3 are in rotative format, each serving one year stits) 16 reps. would form the said Com.country CENTRAL COUNCIL \The mechanism will continue, delegating ther delegates to Diasora's SUPREME COUNCIL, which , I have over 30 yrs worked on, will have 5 Departments .
1.The Legal-Political in Strasbourg(alongside,not necessarily sitting ex0 to the RA Delegate, but in town..
2,The Economic Supreme in Geneva CH(with 16 offices of the said professional fields)Als God willing striving ard to establish by the se good people the'NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND"
3.The EXECUTIVE IN N.Y. -NEXT TO RA OF U.N. REPRESENTATIVE
4.THE Social Services and Repatriation organizing Supreme in Moscow...
5.The Spiritual in St. Etchmiadzin in conjunction wth the Great ouse of Cilicia..
All 5 Supreme Councl Deartments in constant contact -with contemporary means of communcation- and all oter Community country Central Councils.
Once we ave accomplised such a re-organized Structure (fool-proof) indeed drawing on our HUMAN RESOURCES AND...WAT IS MORE THEIR INPUT FOR CREATING A NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND.latter "suggested' that to begin with a NUCLEUS of it ought to be created by our 5/6 magnates with important investments,say each a few hundred million dolalrs, hopefully srpassing the Billion dollars working capital, next the over a hundred millionares in ther turn and thus downward to the
$1000.00 investors..
Monies accumulated under the direct control ad sgnature of said magnates and/or their reps.wuld encourage nation-wide PARTICIPATION.Indeed main actors being the 100,000 and over "Professional Colleagues..
I have treid to explain in short format the idea of trying hard to having REAL PARTICIPATION AND REPRESENTATION.Nowere in my articles/Bulletins have even come near to hrt feelings of our hitherto existing-and I hope coninued efforts- of our future so far existing and added to similar organization..for the Armenian mindset is such that aways new ones come up.I respect them.But if we do aspire to be a Diaspora with STRUCTURES HITHERTO UNKNOWN, then I humbly reiterate my above sheme.
It is there for the taking.Or if contested to ,I am here to expand further on above theses/scheme,formulae-whatever further details are requred- to our dear compatriots.
Hama Haigagani SIRO,ad
E.&.O excepted,Please forgive me I type fast..
presented by
Gaytzag Palandjian
To Justin,
The idea that Armenians committed mass genocide against Turks, Kurd or Circassians is pure Turkish fiction fairytale that is given some credence by a few phony Turkish paid historians. The massive amount of evidence, both eyewitness and official archival material, is an overwhelming clear testimony to the genocidal intent of the Turkish government to rid itself of anything Armenian and of course the theft of personal property as the Ottoman Empire was based upon murder, theft and occupation of others. It’s what Turks do best. That is why all genocide historians view the Armenian Genocide as a known fact. None talks of the Turkish massacres because it basically doesn't exist. Going further, the Armenian genocide really started in the late 1800’s with the Hamidian massacres of up to 200,000 Armenians and then under the cover of WW1 the Turks decided to implement the “final Armenian solution”. You can include the final Greek, Assyrian and now the Kurdish solution to that list.......So please, before asking everyone to shed a tear for the poor Turks, try reading a credible history book outside of Turkey.
Bravo Berj; I am in total agreement with you. I am so appaled by the way the U.S. State Department take Armenia and Armenians for nothing and no value, it is truly criminal. I am disgusted how they arm-twisted and continue to do so with our government officials to accept the illegal "protocols' that is against Armenia's sovereignty. For 95 years they don't want to accept the fact that an Armenian Genocide happened? What kind of democratically fair country they project to the world and to us Armenians? I don't know, but the U.S. State Dept. has been very cruel to Armenians and to our little landlocked newly formed Armenia of 3 million population. They are very unjust, very cruel and very appaling to all of us.
This is all an absurdity. Armenia's leadership did the right thing by signing the protocols with no preconditions. It's Turkey that's backing off and trying to adjust the road map - just as most Armenians knew they would. It puts egg on the face of the western powers who so vehemently wanted this document. So now what? Will Armenia's so called friends try and undo the constitutional court's decision on the genocide? We Armenians did not fall into any trap. Who's embarrassed now?
The United States State Department calls a diaspora conference with Secretary Clinton and and shuts out one of Armenia's largest advocacy groups. Isn't that the same scenario that's occurring with Turkey? Preconditons? What's with all these preconditions? Who are these people trying to fool anyway. Not us Armenians!
Murat and Justin,
You tell it like it is!! Yes, I know that you'd love to say more, to provide facts to back you up, but unfortunately you must be careful to be as low key as possible, lest the editorial staff censors and deletes your posts. Keep up the good work.
Armen,
Your brainwashing is total! I'm afraid that there's probably permanent brain damage. You go ahead and keep believing all of those things that you've been taught. BTW, don't you know by now that anyone who has even a minor opposition to dashnak propaganda is a paid Turkish agent? Heck, Murat and I rake in a cool million (USD) each month from Turkey just to come on these sites!
Ferhat,
I see that the numbers have now miraculesly climbed to 2-3 million Armenian's killed by us! Wow, even the hard core dashnaks are saying "Say What?! You're out of your gourd! Even we don't buy dat!". Tell me, did you just come up with these figures on your own, or is it the next "official" step for the dashnak diaspora? I guess you can substantiate these figures though, huh? Seriously dude, you've got to cut out the drugs already!
To the rest of you,
Notice how you react to anyone who questions you, who has a different opinion, who has the potential of causing others to ponder the possibility that there just may be another side to the story that you've been told for years. I'm actually surprised that the editorial staff allowed these posts. I would have bet that they would've been censored and deleted, never to see the light of day.
Avetis,
Assuming you live in the Diaspora -- wouldn't it then be your duty to support the will of the people in Armenia, and thus, the HAK? Are you still hanging on to the bit that the protestors were a crazy deranged 20% minority? Funny how you said the Diaspora has no idea what's going on in Armenia. You seem to be the case in point.
Tom and Joe, two towering Armenians dedicated to the perpetuation of their heritage. Your community is fortunate to have this presentation. All of us our proud of the work you do.
Russia needs Armenia more than Armenia needs Russia. The reason is that there are more Russian pointers in Armenia than Armenian pointers in Russian. For example: the Russian military base in Armenia. Russia cannot tolerate Turkey as its neighbor. Because Turkey is basically an Islamic nation. All Islamic nations under Russian's realm are still communist. They are not fanatic as Turkish people. Therefore, it is easy for Russia to manage them. Once, they grow into radical and fanatic Muslims like the Turkish people, they will create big problem and they will want freedom and independence. As a result, the Turkish empire will become a realty. Never, expect that you can f**k with other 's tool. What ever we have today, we have earned it and paid very high price for it.
Long Live Armenians and Armenia! Amen!
Yes my fast talkin' used Levon salesman, anyone that supports that filthy 1990s gang is either utterly naive (ignorant of the world around them), hopelessly crazed or a criminal. As far as I'm concerned, I don't think you are crazed or a criminal... You see, and you thought I didn't like you.
Fortunately, I spend enough time in Armenia every year, time with real Armenians, to know that Levonakans are nothing but a vociferous minority. Realize that everything you and I hate about our republic today have their roots in his administration. As bad as they may be, Sargsyan and Kocharyan are several heads above your Levonik. I would hate to think just how much worst Armenia would have been had Levonik not been forced out of office. And guess what, I'm not a Dashnaktsakan either. Anyway, don't bother trying to get into a debate with me on this topic, I'm not going to waste my time debating the very obvious.
And I am not going to explain to you what my relationship is with my homeland. Just know that When it comes to political, historical and military matters I know what I'm talking about, and I have been around the block quite a few times. You are barely out your front door on a tricycle. Anyway, I know you mean well and I know that you have the potential to be intelligent. I suggest you be humble, observant and more importantly read and learn from what I write.
AR, can you please outline what the diaspora did, as a collective body, to help Armenians defeat the Turks. In your opinion what was it that they did that was very "important," as you called it? Was it economical? Was it military? Was it political? Please formulate your thoughts regarding this matter in a proper perspective. Take into consideration our big talking diaspora's wealth in numbers and money and compare it to want was actually done at the time, or is being done today. Consider all the factors that led to our victory. And please don't bring up Monte in your reply. Yes, he was a war hero. He was a unique person, one in a million. But Armenians would have still won the war had he not been in the picture at the time. I'm just trying to set the record straight here.
Henry jan, another thing I forgot to mention in my previous post: You are mistakenly thinking that I believe in the idea of "democracy", the absurd notion that the ignorant masses can effectively rule themselves. When you get older and wiser one day you may realize that "democracy" is just as flawed and unnatural as Bolshevism. Just think Henry, we are required to get a higher education, good vocational training and/or a government issued license for doing practically anything of value in the civilized world... So why is it that the most important task of electing a nation's officials is expected to be handed over to the masses? When this is practiced in developing/third world nations it usually ends up in chaos. The world has always been ruled by a financial/political elite, and it is no exception today. Do you know how the elite in advanced nations of the world, namely in the West, gets around this dilemma? By having politicians on both sides of the fence work for them. Whoever wins, the elite wins. Do you get it? So when you see a Clinton or a Bush or an Obama or whoever they are going to appoint next in the White House realize that he or she is ultimately responsible not to the people - but to the financial/political elite (also known as oligarchs in former Soviet states) that made it all possible for them.
Sorry to ruin your little party, but your favorite US president is nothing but a spokesperson for financial/political elite in this country, and he was appointed by them to run for the presidency six years ago at the closing of the democrat convention in 2004. It would have been the same story if McCain had won the elections...
Medved is a jewish name. I know a notorious one on radio who also claims to be a Zionist. Check it out his Name is Michael Medved.
ADENDUM (TO MY ABOVE POST)
Dear All,
Firstly I beg pardon for so hastily and badly wriiten above post of mine.I repeat I am a fast typer with pleanty typographical errors.But do bear with me please.
IN THE FORMATION OF THE 3-PERSON DELEGATES I FORGOT TO MENTION THE ESSENTIAL ,WHICH IS :-
Each of the democratically elected has to ostentate ,rather unite ONE OF THE THREE BELOW MERITS, in order to be elected by fellow Colleagues Associates.
1. One ,most advanced in his /her profession ,i.e., as example.(amongst, say the Health /edical Group,elected by all others for his /her achievments in said Profession.
2.One most advanced in his/her capacity of being culturally(National/International0 most advanced and a politicized person.
3.One that has in his/her spare time-besides being a physitiomn-as example- invested his/her earnings in whether property,funds/business, such as establishing his/her own Clinic,thus Financally mst advanced.
Each of above ,Thus compliments the other two.By the by THERE IS NO ANY OTHER MERIT of importance as such,thence those elected as Deelegates of a given rofession represent actually ELECTED FOR THEIR WORTH. Not haphazardly...as has been the cdase so far -like say campaigning by spending funds to have one elected himself/herself by spending monies... or for that matter by the politico elected by comrades,having followers of an ideology...WITH ALL RESPECT TO THEM,but we now should think /contemplate in presenting those above mentioned as well, since these good people also have a RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE AD ELECT THEIR PREFERRED REPRESENTATIVES TO THE NATIONAL AFFAIRS ARENA..
AND TO BE SURE, THEY DO ,RATHER CAN MUSTER CLOUT ONCE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF THESE SO FAR NEGLECTED HUGE COLLECTIVITIES GET A CHANCE TO ARTICIPATE AND REPRESENT IN AN ORDERLY FASHION AND FOR THER MERITS..
As one can see,so far very clearly the politico ave taken centre stage not only in diaspora, but also in the Homeland as well.By campaignings and/or taking to the streets and delivering discourses to the people at large(composed mainly of those who are not in the advanced professioally Groupings..who can indeed steer the aforemetioned more properly and have them follow a TREND SO FAR UNKNOWN T THEM.THAT OF THE 16 FIELDS OF THE PROFESSIONS.Our dear politial parties used to call these non-participating people ...now well advanced in the following professionscalling them "silent majority' NO MORE, I hope...
Rest of the Fields in which the diasporan Armenian and also Homeland's are by far a COLLECTIVITY-if grouped together- and can come to sit alongside the poltico and Spiritual fathers...
I mention now the remaining fioelds herebelow.
6.The Banking & Finance,
7.Travel & Transport, 8.Industries & mines.8.Communications IT.9.The Press/Adevertising.10Food & catering.11.Agricultural Field.12 Enironmetal & Forestry.13.Education & Culture.14. The Construction Field(Architects et a relatedl. Another tw that now does not come to mind have repeatedly written about these. Indeed yesteryear's telegraphist is now AN IT EXPERT, the userper a Financial & banking expert...this goes on with all above professions.
Believe it or not the great majority of Armenians have registered tremendous advances in all above and then some..
Who says the non-politico are A SILENT MAJORITY?
GIVEN THE CHANCE-GROUPING INTO THEIR RESPECTIVE ASSOCIATIONS THEY CDAN SHOW THE OTHERS WHAT THEY CAN DO.WHAT IS MRE THEY ARE THE MAJORITY AND REPRESENT HUMAN RESOURCES AND INDEED THE Y ARE CAPABLE OF RE-UNITING THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES OF THE DIASPORA IN AN UNPRECEDENTED MODE...
THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE SO, MAY GO ON DOING S ,BUT IN FRANCE THE"GROUPEMENT INTERPROFESSIONAL ARMENIEN-WHEN I JOINED THEM SOME 16/17 YEARS AGO WERE A TOTAL OF 50/60 PEOPLE..NOW OVER 600 .But again not harnessed so to speak to A MECHANISM THAT CAN THROUGHOUT THE DIASPORA COUNTREIS BECOME A F O R C E ..to sum up
WE can either go beating around the bush and come up with new establishments not LINKED AS ABOVE OFFERED'/SUGGESTED OR STRIVE FOR THE SUPER-STRUCTURE THAT AS YET CAN BE CREATED/BUILT....
With Best Regars to A ll,
and
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
Gaytzag alandjian
The US State Department, State of Israel, and England form the axis-of-genocide-denial. -
The eyes of the World focused on Armenia immediately after the Russian-Georgian war of August 2008. - Why? - Because, the West (primarily the US State Department, UK, and the EU) deemed Georgia unreliable and unstable as a transit route for Central Asian gas (Turkmenistan) & oil (Kazakhstan) . - Russia would not allow Georgia under any circumstance to join NATO or the EU, as that would provide the West an alternative to Russian gas & oil dependency; and it would seriously weaken Russian leverage and influence over the West. - What does this have to do with Armenia and Protocols? (Everything) - The US State Department views Armenia as the most direct and viable route from Europe-across Turkey-via Armenia- and on to Azerbaijan and the Caspian basin gas & oil fields. - Neither Azerbaijan (nor the Caspian basin) can export its gas & oil to the West; neither Turkey can serve as the energy corridor between Europe and central Asia as envisaged by the US State Department. So, no open border, no gas & oil. -
In addition to Armenia's geo-strategic importance to the West and Russia; Armenia is strategic to Iran as well. It provides Iran with a direct route to Europe (independent of Turkey). Iran's interest in building a highway, railway, gas and oil pipelines, Tabriz-Yerevan-Batumi, provides the shortest direct route for import and export to the West.
You are right, I apologize, the numbers of Armenians massacred were indeed not 2-3 million, but according to a new study by German historians (Center for German Historical Society in Bonn), it might as well be 3.75million Armenians massacred.
How can the world tolerate turkish atrocities is beyond anyones imagination. And you want your terrorist country to be accepted to the UN? How can a country which proclaim democracy and freedom of speech, tolerate a small child of 13 years old, a girl, weighing 77lbs, be imprisoned for 7-8 years? Does any turk here have a logical explanation as to why this little Kurdish girl was sentenced to 7-8 years prison?
Look, history does not lie, OK? Look what you've done in the last few years.
1. Killed a sleeping innocent Armenian officer in a Foreign country, Hungary.
2. Killed Hrant Dink.
3. Killed 2,700 innocent Kurds
4. Attacked the Armenian football team bus with rocks and profanities. Whereas your team was not molested while in Yerevan.
5. Betrayed your supposed strategic partner Israel, over and over and over again. They are sick and tired of erdogans stupid and terroristic outbursts..
Look, the Genocide against the Armenians is an undeniable fact, you can buy phony historians with money, but they too, in the end realize that they have become the butt of all jokes. The Genocide of assimilation against my people is in full swing, and believe me it will be stopped, the days are numbered when 20 million Kurds will stand up and throw your vicious and violent mongol turks out of our lands.
Before I forget, too much turkish delight is diluting your Genocidal senses my friend, go easy on the sugar...Ferhat
I am so saddened that this brave, pure soul has left us. I find myself thinking of him several times throughout the day. It's as though I've lost a close personal friend even though I never met him.
jack hashian is not Trevanian. Rod Whitaker is Trevanian. Jack's been trying to filch his identity for years.
To Robert, who says:
"I’m actually surprised that the editorial staff allowed these posts. I would have bet that they would’ve been censored and deleted, never to see the light of day".
Robert, these posts were not censored because we are not in Turkey. It is called "democracy".
Don't search for this word in your Turkish dictionary, it doesn't exist, and is never heard of in Turkey, where (according to my experience) the only fact of being called Robert or Justin is a crime in itself.
Why should people have any doubt about the crimes committed by the Turks in the past, when these crimes occur until today, but in a more "careful", or even secret way.
I agree with you when you say that 2 to 3 million Armenian killed is not an accurate statement.
According to my information, the number was between 1 and 1,5 million.
And the Turks committed other horrible crimes, in Greece, in Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Austria, and several countries in the Near East like Lebanon and Syria.
No need to be a member of any Armenian political party, no need to be an Armenian to look at Turkey with fear because of what happened (and still happening), and with hatred because of the denial.
The denial will take you nowhere, and will always be a black stain on the forehead of your children, grand- children...and this will never stop, because the crimes that are never admitted are never forgotten.
Shame on the people who try to insinuate that the people who were slaughtered deserved to die, or who try to find excuses for the murderers.
I recommend all of you who are bickering amongst each other about who won the war and such, to stop. Proclaiming who "won" the war is disrespecting our martyrs, both Diasporan's and Hayastansi's, men women and children, who died during that awful time. Mourn and pay respect to those who have perished...all were Armenian.
Rifts Emerging in Armenian Community
As a diasporan currently living and working in Armenia. I myself have noticed the divide. It must end. I for one agree with the author of the article "Rifts Emerging in Armenian Community". Diasporan's must focus on other problems in Armenia. Those being politics, corruption, not recognizing the legitimacy of the election, etc. It can no longer only be the recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
Avetis,
You have validated what I have long suspected of people who support Kocharyan and Sargsyan.
Medved is Russian, not Jewish. Many Jews in Russia adopt Russian names, just like they take on English names, Latin names and German names... No one can determine Medvedev's ancestry by his name only.
Avetis jan, another thing -- we really must visit two very different Armenias. All you seem to do on this board and Asbarez is go around asking people to take a "course on geopolitics," remind Armenians of how "stupid" people they are, and rephrase all that nonsense you read at the Jamestown Foundation's website (which, if anybody is interested in knowing, is a discredited think tank that blames everything on Russia -- from the black plague to the fall of Rome -- and thus gives it more power than it might deserve. Most of its rank and file are neocons and or ex-Soviet dissidents [i.e. from Georgia] who have some complex against Russians). And to top it off, you offer us some "personal experience" -- "been around the block," "spiritual connection with the homeland," etc, as if that is somehow suppose to accept your severely flawed analysis and understanding of Armenian politics. There are many Fidayis have more of the "been around the blocks" and "spiritual connection to homelands" sort of backgrounds who disagree with you (in fact, I don't know any are sympathetic to what you're saying). You know -- if you rely on people who "take a course on geopolitics" to understand what is going on -- you must be a very confused person. Many international relations experts, both in Armenia and the U.S., including many former foreign ministry officials who I assume have a lot to bring to the table, oppose the protocols in very basic geopolitical terms. Does Vartan Oskanian, foreign minister for 10 years, need to take a "course on geopolitics," or Raffia Hovhanissian? Or Alexander Arzoumian? (That was quite a bipartisan group wasn't it?).
But I guess you're right, an unelected president signing a historic deal with our genocidal neighbor without any transparency in a European city, in a locked room with Turks and Americans is a good thing.
Explain to me again why a man who wins 52% of the vote is having problems getting a rally together?
Anyway, I hope you can realize yourself that you're a waste of time. (I'll be sure to take a course on geopolitics...just in case you decide to reply).
What difference does it make? I think Lavrov, however, is half Armenian (Lavroyan - name changed). Does it make him more for Armenia or for Russia.
Russia (czarist or soviet) has always played divide and conquer. Do you think they really want to solve the NK crisis or let it fester and use it to their own advantage so they can gain more control over the region.
Do you think Lavrov's loyalty is to Armenia or Russia? I would say it is to Russia first.
Same for Medvedev.
A question for Ed: what can you and other expatriates and of course the citizens of Armenia do to improve what you call "politics, corruption, not recognizing the legitimacy of the election, etc." ?
I mean practical steps that can work. I think it is unfair to ask diasporans to make much of an impact on those issues given how entrenched the government and oligarchs are.
The diaspora can provide material aid to people and has done so. Billions in aid so far and it continues to arrive. If the diaspora threatens to cut off aid if the government does not stop being corrupt, the people will suffer and the government does not care anyway. It's a Catch 22. By the way, recognition of the genocide and land and reparations - and fighting corruption - are not mutually exclusive.
Marina
According to the US military attache in Istanbul(Ottoman turkey), the Armenian population in Ottoman turkey was at or about 6 million.
turks allege that Kurds number 10 million in turkey, even though every other country including the US and European countries put that number close to 21 million.
Can't any of you see the monumental manipulation being carried out by turkey?
So, if 1.5 million were massacred, whatever happened to the 4.5 million Armenians. Was it magic that they suddenly disappeared from the face of the world? That would be a strange coincidance. It is your history, and it is up to you all Armenians to reevaluate the numbers massacred by the turks.
I don't understand the kindness you Armenians show to Genocidal turks everywhere. You treat them as if they will accept the Genocide. Here is a violent people that will very very soon attack Armenia and Artsakh and according to turks here in turkey, they will teach the Armenians another lesson.
Can't you see the way they treat Kurds? Did any of you suspected that these "civilized turks" would ever imprison a small child for 7-8 years?
You stay blinded by their kind words and you already are victimized for the 2nd, 3rd and nth times.
Ferhat
If Armenians want to lose their country altogether, then, they should allow the turks to return and live on Armenian lands of Artsakh.
If that scenario happens, the Armenian army must and should overthrow this government and send them packing.
turks once returned, will cause havoc in Armenia and will eventually destroy your country.
As a Kurd, I would suggest Armenia return a few inches square of Armenian lands, that's all. The turks have millions and millions square miles of empty lands in Central Asia, maybe these turks should be resettled back in their countries of origin, the central Asian steppes.
And always, you must be united. Otherwise the turks will just walk into Armenia without a fight.
Ferhat
Avetis, are you a bittter old man?
Paul, are you a young simpleton? If it helps you, I'm middle aged. And I am bitter (more like disappointed and frustrated) at all the ignorant, hysterical, genocide obsessed, paranoid, irrational and/or big talking hypocritical Armenians I see everywhere. I grew up thinking that Armenians are brave, honest, intellectual and wise... Now do you see where my disappointment stems from? However, instead of making a fool of yourself why don't you deal with the content of my comments...
To Marina,
You actually question the veracity of the extent of censorship on this or any other dashnak site (e.g. ANCA)! My dear Marina, you haven't a clue as to how many times I, and many others who voiced an opinion of difference, were censored and DELETED! I have written so many posts just on this site alone which have been deleted. Why? Because I wrote, and backed up, the truth. The editorial staff memebers didn't want to take a chance on posting it for the obvious reason that it did contain the truth! There were no vulgarities, nor any defamation. I wasn't rude in any way. So there was NO reason for the censorship. When I called them on it, they censored that post as well. So please don't even try to make a comparison between Turkey and dashnak sites. The ONLY reason my post has been allowed to come through is because I'm pro-protocol (& in favor of having the historical commission established), and want to have peace between the nations in the region. In most cases, it would be to the benefit of Armenia's economy more than to any other country.
To Ferhat,
So, we're now up to 3.75 million. Look, at the rate you're going, don't wait until next week...why don't you just make it an even 6 million now, and then be in true parity with the Jewish Holocaust! You're figure of 6 million Armenians in the area during WWI is...what can I say?...bizzare at best! From the low end of 350K Armenians in the region (Encyclopedia Brittanica - 1914), to the high end of 1.2 million (Armenian Patriarch - 1915), no one even comes close to 6 million! With 600K Armenians returning to Syria & Lebanon after the war, and the Armenians living in the western areas of Turkey (Istanbul) remaining intact, even the UN doesn't buy the 1.5 million figure and states that there was no genocide! But all of that aside, I don't think anyone on this site believes you. You see Ferhat, when you grossly inflate a figure like you have, then you lose all credibility. Listen to your own post! You're literally pleading with everyone to listen and believe what you're telling them. You want the perpetuation of hate to continue to feed your pathetic ego and also to satisfy your own twisted agenda! Just exactly what is your agenda anyway Ferhat? Getting two sides at each other's throats so you can gleefully watch in the background shadows! Is that what you're all about? Really, you're not even worth the time of day!!!
Let me see if I can encapsulate what some of the bloggers here feel:
(1) They hate the diaspora, except for themselves of course
(2) They think they are the only Armenians with any brains
(3) They think everyone who expresses a nationalistic idea is a Dashnak
(4) Any statement or suggestion by a diasporan is met with "You are ordering Armenia around and you have to move there to express an opinion and, of course - you must be a Dashnak"
(5) My daddy was mistreated by a Dashnak in the 1920's and my mama was anti-Dashnak, and so the entire Diaspora, which is all Dashnak, is a bunch of rotten Dashnaks. Not only that, but they're all Dashnaks.
(6) Dashnaks are Dashnaks.
(7) Anyone who talks about Dashnaks must be a Dashnak.
(8) Russia is wonderful, and if you disagree you must move to Armenia before you have a right to express any opinion about Russia. I will not tolerate any critcism of Russian from a bunch of Dashnaks.
(9) Don't criticize Russia or you will earn my wrath, you Dashnak you.
(10) Armenia hates Dashnaks too.
(11) I hate Dashnaks.
(12) Everyone hates Dashnaks.
(13) Anyone who does not think that I am the smartest and most politically astute Armenian in the world is stupid and must be a Dashnak.
(14) The Diaspora is composed of people living comfortable lives in palatial palaces with 50 rooms and 600 bathrooms who will never move to Armenia. These people are all Dashnaks. Even if they do move to Armenia, they are still stupider than I am and are a bunch of Dashnaks.
To Arsen,
You're wrong! If you re-read my post, you'll see that I'm actually trying to help your country by pointing out the economic importance which the protocols and historical commission will lead to.
To Manooshag,
I think your main problem is that you actually believe all the propaganda that you've been spoon fed since probably childhood! You equate the Turkish judicial system and prisons to a movie (Midnight Express) which even Billy Hayes himself denounced as being competely different than what really happened (The Mike Douglass Show-1976; various journal articles). Tell me, have you been to Turkey so as to make the ludicrous statements you just made in your post above? Obviously, you've visited the prison system there to make your statements! Would you care to share your "report" of your travels there with everyone on this site?
You accuse us of "bullying" and "stealing other people's lands". Hmm, when was the last time you reviewed history? FYI, Aremnia attacked Azerbaijan twice and Georgia once during 1919, to gain more land for themselves. The results however, were most unfavorable to Armenia all three times. In 1992, Armenia attacked Azerbaijan once again. In 1993, the Armenian military battalion "Bagramian", helped the Russians as they attacked Georgia. Shall I continue?
You mentioned the arrest of a 15 year old Kurdish girl in Turkey. Let me ask you a question Manooshag...how old does a terrorist have to be (in other words, is there an age limit?)? Over 30,000 died in Turkey in a ten-year period due to terrorist actions by the PKK! In the early 1990's, there was widely spread anti-Turkish press releases of a Kurdish woman who was "beaten" and "tortured". The press and the Armenian & Greek diaspora had a field day with this story and milked it to no end...until the rest of the story was finally allowed to be revealed a few months later (which the press had some how managed to forget to include!). Turns out that this Kurdish woman who had been "beaten and tortured" by the Turkish security forces, was a terrorist who ultimately revealed the locations of bombs planted by the PKK in stores and a major shopping mall in Istanbul! This action saved hundreds, if not more, lives! So, unlike what YOU would like to believe, that all we do is round up anyone we feel like and "torture" them just so we can get our jollies, the reality is very different.
I look brain washed to you and some Turks. But what about for the rest of the civilized world? starting from UN and down to at least twenty well known civilized countries. Robert, some Turks are brain-washed not me, because they are denying the Armenian genocide. Stop that nonesense name caller and wake-up! you ignorant Robert.
Dear Mr. Kaligian; Thank you for the enlightenment. Now we know how to answer to some parties within the Armenian community who continuously put down the ARF's involvement with the CUP leadership.
This is my theory only; however the CUP and their party leaders have already thought of and put into the workings about the Armenian Genocide as early as 1912; I have read this recently in an article on the Website from knowledgeable sources. So that the CUP having seemingly regarded the ARF's refusal to cooperate with them to start an uprising within the Armenian community in the Russian Empire against the Russians as a betrayal by A.R.F. is just an excuse by Talaat Pasha and the CUP leadership; because Talaat Pasha and the CUP leadership have decided as early as 1912 to annihilate the entire Armenian nationality in Turkey.
Robert, I should have specified. My comments were not directed towards you, they were meant for "Rich" and "John".
Hye, thanks to our Congressmen/Congresswomen who stance is constant for the rights of a nation decimated by the Turkish Genocide. These men and women are serving beyond their immediate states which they represent - against the cycle of Genocides. They recognize a bully nation which committed several Genocides - including the first one of the 20th century - the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation upon their own lands. Turkey did not gain these lands via a war - but with vile inhumanity to humans, slaughters, rapes, kidnappings, forced women/children in churches to be set afire, and bastinados... cruel tortures.
These Congress men and women have come to know that with the delay in pursuit of the Turkish guilt for the decimation of a nation - deliberate and planned - elimination a Christian people from their own homeland of nearly 4,000 has contributed to all the subsequent Genocides on our planet - all the Genocides since the 1890s of the 19th century, the 20th century and even now, into 2010, sadly, into 21st century.
Imagine, if you will, all the milllions and millions of innocents - defiled by despots, such as the Turk,
slaughtered, raped, kidnapped, and more... all these lives, one by one, all suffered the Genocides as
a Turkey deceitfully escapes their deserved punishment before the world. For then shall despots shall have thought twice before purusing goals via Genocides.
These 'brave' Turks - and until today - have not been able, after so many generations, to learn the
ropes to join 'civilized' peoples. Their leaderships will not allow this nation to gain civility and
decency amongst humanity. This is an unknown to the hordes emanating from the Asian mountains who overran civilized nations - committed Genocides - thus claiming all they 'stole' as their own...
Their leaderships lie to the world:
-denying the Armenian Genocide - which all the world knows and recognizes.;
-bullying and in pursuit of the Armenians, wherever, whenever - still (nearly 100 years);
-Turkish leaderships' lie even in their own Turkish history books - lie to their own citizenry.
Only a complete removal of this Turkish leadership will gain the Turkish people a civilized nation;
Only the removal as was for the Nazi regime for Germany following WWII...
Manooshag
Manooshag
Robert, I forgot to add. This is not about Putin. This not about individuals, it's about long term national policy. This is where geopolitics come into play. As long as the Caucasus is flanked by Turkic, Islamic and Western interests, Moscow will continue looking at Armenia favorably, regardless of who's in the Kremlin, as long as the Kremlin is occupied by Russians. Besides which, Moscow was the party that bought the unwilling parties, Yerevan and Ankara, to the negotiation table - not the West. After defeating Western backed Georgians in the summer of 2008 and making political headway in Ukraine since then, as well as taking advantage of the economic crisis currently engulfing the West, Moscow is now attempting to project its economic and political power in the region via its most trustworthy and stable regional partner, Armenia. As far as the West is concerned, since it seeks regional stability and desperately needs access to its energy resources, it is following Moscow's lead for now. If you closely follow regional developments you will see this.
Dear AR, Avetis, Henry and others,
When a new war breaks out in Artsakh and Diasporans come forward to do their part, who will (legally or illegally) train us militarily? Who will house us and feed us? Who will offer to grant us visas? Please lay out the plans and the logistics. Otherwise, if we take some form of initiative and organize on our own in the absence of guidance from the Yergir, I can already hear you saying "Who gave you the right to act on Hayastan's or Artsakh's behalf? Don't tell Hayastan or Artsakh what to do or how to do it."
Arsen, your irrational ranting is as sad as it is absurd… and you’re not alone here in this…
Anyway, reread what you wrote. If you see nothing wrong in what you wrote then it appears to me that you have absolutely no understanding of logic, reality, objectivity, regional history, Armenia, the war in Artsakh, nature of international politics, complexities of the Caucasus, dynamics of Armenian-Russian relations, the Turkic/Islamic threat the Caucasus faces…and last but not least – you have no understanding of what the Armenian diaspora is and what it should be.
Had you been a little more intelligent you would have realized that it was the Western funded Bolshevik government that mutilated Armenia – like it had mutilated the Russian Empire. Do you realize that calling the Bolsheviks “Russian” is morally/intellectually the same as calling the Young Turks in the Ottoman Empire “Armenian”? Do you realize that Christian Slavs in general were murdered in the tens of millions by the Bolsheviks? Do you realize that it was the communists in the late 1980s that were trying to keep their union together when they supported the Azeris before the Soviet collapse? Do you realize that if Armenia did not have the Kremlin’s backing in the early 1990s and thereafter there would be no Artsakh or Armenia today? Do you really think the that diaspora was, as a collective body, instrumental in wining the war in Artsakh or keeping Armenia afloat?
Arsen jan, guess what? The diaspora is a dead end, and that is a best case scenario. Some of you make it seem as if the Armenian diaspora has been around for centuries. The fact is, the Armenian diaspora is not even a hundred years old and it is already dying. I don’t consider the vibrant Armenian community of Iran a real diaspora because it is close to Armenia both physically and spiritually, but even they are gradually diminishing. Had it not been for the influx of Middle Eastern and former Soviet Armenians the diaspora in the West would have been dead a long time ago. While it exists the diaspora’s one and only task is to – unconditionally – support the homeland. None of your complaints about Armenia or excuses about why the diaspora does not do this or that are acceptable in this discussion. The fact of the matter is Armenia today is surviving, as it has for the past two hundreds years, as a result of its native population’s strength and perseverance as well as its close ties with Russia. In the big global picture, compared to what the diaspora could have done for Armenia it has done next to nothing. If you see yourself as an Armenian living in the diaspora you have one priority – to have a spiritual/physical connection to the Armenian homeland, regardless of how much the homeland may disgust you. If you live in the diaspora and do not have and, more importantly, do not seek a physical connection to the homeland you would be better of assimilating as soon as possible.
The support of the Jewish leaders is not needed. All is asked is that Jewish leaders stop actively blocking recognition of the Armenian genocide. Just stop being complicit with genocidal Turkey. Perhaps Jewish organizations should clean up their house from genocide deniers such as Abraham Foxman.
No robert, that's is what YOU want to see my friend.
When someone looks for a job, people check that persons references, and as such, and as you are a turk, and have a history built on murdered innocent peoples, you will never be believed or trusted again. turks have horrible references..even Suleiman the magnificant was a mass murderer, 4 million Albanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Greeks and Romanians were murdered because of this mass murderer. You show me one page of turkish history, where turks came out honorable or chivalrous. We had our Saladin whose chivalry surprised the Crusaders, and who treated every Christian subject with respect and dignity. Armenians had their Gen. Antranig, who treated Kurdish women and children with respect and dignity. You show me one turk, one single turkish ruler who showed benevolence to his Christian subjects...there is none, unless you want to become that one chivalrous turk, then step forward, accept the Genocide, move out of Kurdish lands, treat your Christian subjects with dignity and respect. We thought that mustafa kemal will turn centuries of Ottoman brutality around, buy we were wrong. kemal not only massacred Greeks, but then turned on us Kurds and massacred us.
Would you robert, raise your voice and complain about the unjust arrest and imprisonment of this young Kurdish girl? Do you honestly believe that civilized government should act that reckless? Why is a mighty turkey threatened by a small child who weighs a mere 77lb? Where is your sense of compassion? Or do you have any left? It takes a man to come forward and tell the truth my friend. Come on out, learn from Orhan Pamuk, and you will be free of all guilt brought upon you by your forefathers.
There are however righteous turks, the likes of Orhan Pamuk, Dr. Akcam, and hundreds of righteous turkish journalists and academicians, who are fed up with the shame their people are bringing on them, and are working diligently to change turkish public opinion around....however they are few in numbers.
Ferhat
Lest robert mislead you good Armenians...
The 30,000 killed WERE all Kurdish civilians. About 2,000 turkish occupiers died too, but the 30,000 robert is talking about WERE all Kurds.
Stop making false statements..
And before I forget, we lost our love for turks...sorry, you currently are living with 20 million strong Kurds who have no love for you turks, we are done with you all.
Ferhat
robert..don't you have any shame my friend?
Are you honestly telling me that that small child was a terrorist? The turkish occupying forces searched her home and found absolutely nothing there. How dare you call a small child a terrorist?
The terrorists are your government, yourself and people who support that government.
Ferhat
Pat,
The answers to most of the questions can be easily answered with one word: the state. Or, the same thing that fed Monte when he was fighting. The issue is not, however, logistics -- it is perception and reality. The Diaspora THINKS it played this huuge gigantic role (as noted above, many even think it played THE role), when in reality its role was miniscule. This is quite in contrast to the "Hayastantsis aren't patriotic" narrative many in the Spyurk feed into. Did you watch the video I posted?
Also, on this faux issue of "who has the right to act on Hayastan's behalf" you raised, let me say one thing. The ONLY people that have the right to act on BEHALF of the people of the homeland are THE PEOPLE OF THE HOMELAND THEMSELVES. That being said, this doesn't mean you can't do ANYTHING. This just means you can't oppose anything they do, and if you must do anything, you must support them. If (using your example) they decided they are going to defend the homeland in war -- by all means JOIN. If they decide to open the borders with no preconditions -- you support them!
IF THEY DECIDE THEY WANT TO BE AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY -- guess what, you support them. This is in fact how many Armenian admistrations behave and think -- this is what lead Hayastantsis to war in the first place. Kharabaghtsis said "we want to fight to keep Artsakh an Armenian land" -- and Hayastantsis said "we're with you!" (Also, if a Diasporan Armenian chose to go fight or go live in Armenia, he would no longer be a...umm...Diaspora Armenian -- in fact I encourage Diaspora Armenians to move to Armenia and voice their opinions. All this chest thumping about "getting our homeland back" during the Soviet years apparently turned out to be empty nonsense. Does the Diaspora think it's a permanent feature of the Armenian people, or is it waiting to liberate Western Armenia so they can all go back and live there [yeah right!]) The most extreme and unfortunate case of the Diaspora going against the will of the people is, of course, when the ARF was initially opposed to independence movement in Yerevan. I could list countless others but I think you get it.
(P.S. -- It was easier to just pick a gun and go to war in the early days of independence because we had no laws or regulations. We had Fidayis. Today, it might be difficult (and I wouldn't be surprised if the RA government is hesitant) to Diaspora Fidayis because some might be...SPIES! It's sad but that is a very serious national security issue. Look at the Armenian Asssembly!)
(P.S. 2 -- There are other ways you can/could have helped during and after the war directly related but nonetheless not "fidayutsyun"...for example -- a charity to support the widows and kids of formers soldiers would have been nice. They wouldn't need much, but many are poor. Anything? Anywhere?)
Nice try though ;).
To Robert,
If you didn't like being censored on this site, why would you wish, in that case, that other posts should receive the same treatment, and never see the "day of light", as you say ?
You are not censored on this site when you deny the armenian genocide. In Turkey, people who pronounce the word genocide are killed, like Hrant Dink, who cannot see 'the day of light" anymore. Shame on a country who allows that. Shame on the people who try to re-write history.
Many countries recognize the reality of the armenian genocide, and Turkey will have to do it, if the Turks want to be respected. The reason why the Germans can have today a honorable life is that they don't deny what their grand-parents did. Instead, the Turks use intimidation, influence historians to change the truth, kill journalists...
Continue like this, and you will enter the European Union over our dead bodies.
P.S: Stop trying to isolate Ferhat. I sincerely think that the number he mentions of Armenian killed during the genocide is not accurate. But if the true number is one million or even less, this doesn't mean that there was no genocide. The Turks has disfigured the destiny of the Armenian people by killing, jailing, torturing, raping, and robbing them. Every Armenian I know has a chunk of his family tree missing. Many of them are only survivors of a large family.
Trying to marginalize Ferhat or others will not help, since Turkey is marginalizing itself by falsifying history.
Hye, all good wishes for your endeavors to join together, requesting Congress to pass the current bill HR 252 for recognition of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation.
For all these years, Jews could not see beyond their own pains, could not step up and speak out against other Genocides, even the Turkish Genocide of Armenians - which followed less than a generation later.
Too, Jews employed in the State Department , even to this day, maintain their affinity to Turkish leaderships - thus agreeing with Turks in their denials of their Genocide of the Armenians!
How does a State Department of the United States of America still maintains this stance when 43 of the 50 states of the United States of America, to date, have recognized the guilt of the Ottomans and their subsequent leaderships in perpetrating the Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation? The political aspect outdoes the morally correct - a nation that 'bows' to the likes of a Turkey. Is the State Department determining policies - even against the majority of the voting citizens of the USA?
Manooshag
Hy robert, the turk, your response says it all about you and your misdirected turkish education. Sadly, you cannot see the 15year old in jail as other than an 'enemy'... Lying, you fool even yourself.
End of discussions! Manooshag
Why now? – is it because of recent Turkish politics towards the State of Israel?
Has the ADL, AJC, and other shameful Jewish organizations stopped blocking the Armenian holocaust recognition in the US Congress?
How about the Jewish organizations opposition to the Armenian holocaust memorial in the city of Boston - should we now forget those deeds? Is the Armenian holocaust-denier Abraham Foxman is still leading the ADL?
Rabbi Hillel said it best: “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”
Henry, you have singlehandedly shown how much contempt you have for some imaginary monolithic Diaspora and that you know very little about the people you are insulting under the mask of criticism.
Nevertheless I will address your (condescending) points: The state cannot even house and feed its own people. Even earthquake survivors still don't have adequate housing. Do I need to remind anyone that the state even imprisons Karabakh war criminals? I guess these issues should not concern anyone thinking of going to a battle front. Despite it, we are to rely on this existing state to legitimize our fighting presence. We are to expect the state to want something from us other than money; money which if we send, will certainly not go to war widows or ophanages. Monte found food and shelter within hamov-hodov-Haygagan, self-sacrificing Armenian households and with his fighting brothers. If hundreds sign up to fight, will those same households be able to accommodate those numbers? For all those who do leave their families, jobs and homes to come fight, will the state set up and support underground efforts, since dual-citizenship and fighting for two homelands is not permitted for any American except American Jews with regard to Israel?
Through your remarks that criticism is not permitted from any Armenian whose ancestors were forcibly driven from the homeland, you are showing that the "who has the right to act on Hayastan's behalf" issue is certainly not a "faux issue." The day will come when one Armenian will have one vote, where ever he lives. Last time I looked at the writings of the American founding fathers, opposition and dissent was considered the healthiest way of holding governments and people accountable for what they do. Read Thomas Paine.
Lastly, the views expressed in the video do not represent what the majority of Diasporans feel and know. I do not know one person, Dashnak, Ramgavar, Hunchag or otherwise, who believes it was the Dashnaksoutiun who liberated Artsakh. However, it is clear that this is not something you are willing to believe. It is also clear that no matter how much non-military self-sacrificing and charitable work any of us have done and still do for Armenia (since being genocided and dispossessed from a country that is as much ours as it is yours) will satisfy you. By the way, weren't you the one who introduced the idea of "how many of you are willing to go to fight for your beliefs?" Now that someone has come forward to say that he will, you are instead high-handedly instructing me to give charitably and forget about fighting because I may be a spy?
Henry, I have lived and worked in Armenia for more than 10 years. But that shouldn't concern you. You go right on thinking that people like me have never set foot there other than as an ugly American tourist at best.
Henry, now that your family has emigrated to America, you too are a Diasporan. But since all Diasporans are alike, think for a minute about the fact that this lumps you in with a cookie cutter image of Armenians that you despise.
Do us all a favor, Henry. Don't enter law school. Your arguments have far from won you your case.
Pat, I am confident that this time around, if God forbid there is war, Armenia won't need the diaspora. So, don't start packing just yet... During the past twenty years Armenia has developed in ways that it no longer looks to the diaspora for sustenance - for good reason. Armenians in Armenia made that mistake in the early stages of the independence movement (late 1980s early 1990s), when they were expecting full diasporan participation in terms of manpower, funding and business. What they essentially got from the large and wealthy diaspora were a handful of hardcore Dashnaks from abroad and bundles of used clothing... The finest thing the diaspora managed to do after the war was over was to build a road between Armenia and Artsakh. Needless to say, compared to what the diaspora was capable of doing and what it did was an embarrassment, and as a diasporan I'm ashamed of this to this day. And one would think that diasporans today seeing their limitations would be a bit more sensitive, more understanding and more nuanced to Armenia's socioeconomic and geopolitical plight... No, on the contrary, diasporans like to think that they saved Armenia from the clutches of imminent death. So, don't worry, they things are going Armenia no longer needs us to fight its wars. During the last ten years, after Levonik was ousted, the armed forces of Armenia made huge progress. Today it is the finest military in the Caucasus, next to Russia, with whom it is closely allied. I don't think there will be a war with Azerbaijan again. Aliyev knows that the war is over, his aggressive talk regarding Artsakh serves two purposes - put pressure on Armenia during negotiations and placate his bloodthirsty citizens. Aliyev realizes that Armenia can't be defeated on the battlefield. He also realizes that none of the superpowers, especially Russia, will allow him to get adventurous. However, there may be a phony war arranged between regional powers (including Baku), where in a limited combat engagement Azeris are defeated again and this defeat is used to dampen the Azeri lust for Artsakh. This is contingent upon Baku running out of options such as normalization of relations between Armenia and Turkey and a more dominant Russian role in the Caucasus.
Sadly Above commenets between two or three or even all, is very typical of an Armenian Forum.No one stops to think that in order to occupy a POSITION ONE HAS TO BE ELECTED BY MAJORITY...
Here on this forum or on others, the situation is the same,albeit on some non-Armenians also participating.
Thence, what the Administrator ,-understandable a partisan- or a Govt. one(RA0 reads all psts, skipping or or tw or more ,admitting only those that best suit the purporse of a "BABYLONIAN" OR "ARSHAGAVAN" MODE-SYSTEM..
INDEED STICKING ONLY TO THEIR PARTY line,dogma.With all respect to them all, whether ARF,Ramgavaragan or S.Demo Hunchagians..they miss one IMPORTANT ISSUE, that by keeping this present Armenian status quo "Arshagavan" like...the ARE NOT GETTING THE SUPPORT OF THE 100,000 Armenians who OCCUPY "PROFFESSIONAL" POSTIONS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE FIELDS(ABOVE NMBERED BY SELF) WO can ideed muster up clout, BOTH HUMAN-RESOURCES-WISE AND then create by themselves the ECONOMIC POWER OF THE DIASPOR(S).SO BE IT..
CARRY ON THIS WAY UNTILL ONE DAY YOU WILL FEEL/SEE THAT OUR HUGE COLLECTIVITIES THAT ARE LEFT TO DRIFT AWAY-NAMELY THE NON-PARTISANS ,and then ..some day themselves feel that they are getting weaker and weaker...
Thus paving the way for complete capitulation or partial capitulation, above all to our adversaries and also our Homeland BBB's (Bishops Bosses and Benefactors or oligarks whatever ...who ENJOY SEEING THE DIASPORA in this un-enviable situation and indeed taking advantage of the BBB (their supporters giving them both economic icentive as well as moral..since the GREAT MAJORITY ,i.e. the 100,000 strong PCA's are driven further away from ational Affairs Arena.
May God help this miserable un-organized Armenian Diaspora(s)...
Hama Haigagani SIRO
Gaytxzag Palandjian
I am reminded of a scene from a Stanley Kubrick film titled Paths of Glory. It starred Kirk Douglas.
http://www.criticalconcern.com/movies-conscience/paths-of-glory.htm
But it's really not the film itself or its content that I find apt.
No, it's 6 little words that Douglas tells his general (played by the nasty, unprincipled, lying Adolphe Menjou:): "You're a sick, degenerate old man."
Ever seen the movie, Avetis?
“Use Senate reconciliation and expand Medicare via the Senate’s buy-in provisions. The CBO has already signed off on this as a means of saving money.
More importantly, if more Americans can do a buy-in with Medicare, it creates more cost control (because there’s a genuine “public option” competitor).
It also helps to solve the problems of pre-existing conditions, because Medicare does not deny coverage on this basis.
Allowing a Medicare buy-in to Americans under 65 would give people a genuine alternative to private insurance and thereby render the pre-existing question moot.
It would also lower Medicare costs by expanding the risk pool of patients (the great bulk of medical expenses are accounted for by a small number of people, mostly the elderly, requiring very expensive treatment).
And it would substantially enhance the global competitiveness of American corporations. After all, in what other country in the world is health care a marginal cost of production for business?” - Roosevelt Institute Marshall Auerback
The people have spoken in three elections, sending a clear message to the Democrats to stop the back room deals on health care reform and listen to the peoples objections. Yegparian should take a dose of his own medicine.
Pat,
Re: a 'monolithic' Diaspora -- point taken. You're right, the Diaspora is not a monolithic group. It does, however, pretend to be. Look at the ANCA's first response to the protocols: "THE DIASPORA WASN'T CONSULTED." First, how can "the diaspora" be consulted if there is no one institution to go to, and what does it mean if there is disagreements between the numerous Diaspora organizations? I actually wrote an article about this for the weekly called "Reflections on Our Unity: On the Tips of Our Tongues." You should give it a read.
But most importantly, the ANCA's response proves my point. The REAL question should have been and should be "were the PEOPLE of ARMENIA consulted?" Organizations like the ANCA and the AAA supported Sarkisian's fraudulent election. They diametrically opposed the will of the people of Armenia -- and now one of them is talking about "the Diaspora being consulted." Why should the people of Armenia care about your opinion if you clearly don't care about their's? Obviously, you can stand here and tell me (and many have) "I personally never supported the fraudulent elections" -- but that no significant opposition to these organizations amassed (with the exception of portions of the Hayatantsi community) further proves my point.
"Lastly, the views expressed in the video do not represent what the majority of Diasporans feel and know." It represents a huuuuuuge portion of the traditional Diaspora. A portion TOO big if you ask me. Those are the extreme cases I mentioned (although some of the people who said those things were high ranking AAA and ARF members). But the broader narrative from which these fables and these sentiments rise from ("We saved Hayastan...Hayastantsis are lazy/unpatriotic...we know what's best for Armenia, etc") come from the highest echelons of Diaspora organizations. Most Diasporans think they have done a wonderful job supporting Armenia in fundamental ways, and the people of Armenia remain ungrateful. You can lie to yourself but I've heard these EXACT sentiments from ANCA interns, AYFers, AGBU employees, AAA interns, and ARF bureau members. Most people who do not have an opinion on the matter generally don't have any opinions on national issues anyway. The only exceptions to these rules are, of course, the Hayastantsi Diasporans, who are not part of the wider Diaspora network because they have yet to incorporate themselves into these organizations. Read the comments for the "A Tale of Two Charts" article on the weekly for more on this.
"Monte found food and shelter within hamov-hodov-Haygagan, self-sacrificing Armenian households and with his fighting brothers." That's exactly what I meant -- either the state OR...that. But the bit on the state not being able to support "hundreds" of Diaspora Armenians in fighting is quite funny actually. It most definitely can support even thousands. Armenia will eat itself inside out to support the war effort (as it did in the early 90s).
"since dual-citizenship and fighting for two homelands is not permitted for any American except American Jews with regard to Israel?" Hmm...you know there was a big fight about Dual Citizenship for Diaspora Armenians (which I opposed) awhile back. But it was eventually approved. The Diaspora made a biiiiiig fuss about not being "left out" -- and now that dual citizenship has been granted...how many Diaspora Armenians have actually payed the fees or joined the Armenian military and become dual citizens? The numbers barely register on the map. This is actually part of a disturbing pattern of behavior for the Diaspora. A long and passionate battle for independence/united Armenia/dual citizenship -- and then when the time comes for it...it acts hesitant/opposes it/doesn't do anything.
What happened to "Tebi Yergir" -- it was a fun slogan for 50 years, wasn't it?
"I do not know one person, Dashnak, Ramgavar, Hunchag or otherwise, who believes it was the Dashnaksoutiun who liberated Artsakh. " You need to get out more =).
"However, it is clear that this is not something you are willing to believe. It is also clear that no matter how much non-military self-sacrificing and charitable work any of us have done and still do for Armenia (since being genocided and dispossessed from a country that is as much ours as it is yours) will satisfy you." It is not YOUR country, nor is it MINE. It belongs to the people of Armenia. If I were to ever move there and live there and have my kids go to school there and pay their taxes and live with an authoritarian government and live under the threat of constant war -- than I would be one of them. Until then, I support them in WHATEVER THEY DECIDE TO DO WITH THEIR COUNTRY. Not only because it is the fair thing to do but because they are the only ones who can make a sobering decision on the future of their country (and thus the grand Armenian nation) -- after all, you can imagine how easy it would be for me to make a hasty/unthoughtful decision regarding your future considering i am not going to suffer the consequences.
The Diaspora should be an extension of Armenia -- not an independent force or the other way around.
"But since all Diasporans are alike, think for a minute about the fact that this lumps you in with a cookie cutter image of Armenians that you despise." Armenians like me are not a political force in the Diaspora (at least not organized, and at least not yet, but hopefully that will change soon). There have been great efforts within the media and political organizations (across the partisan lines) to block out the voices, opinions, and ideas of people like me. This will change, however.
"We are to expect the state to want something from us other than money; money which if we send, will certainly not go to war widows or ophanages." I don't understand what point you were making with this?...that is EXACTLY what the Diaspora has been doing.
Anyway, this is going a little off topic and many of you are misreading what I am saying. The point is NOT that the Diaspora has NEVER helped. It has, I personally know many ways it has helped. The problem is that it has too often stood in the way of fundamental changes in Armenian society, and has re branded itself to be this great patriotic big brother. Most people reading this probably don't even know the ARF initially opposed independence in 1991...and most people reading this can't even see how ridiculous it is for the ANCA to say Armenia is ignoring it/trampling on its rights when it has done THE SAME THING multiple times to the people of Armenia. Think about why that is and you'll understand why the Diaspora orgs need to change/be replaced.
Yep, a lot of what you are writing/saying/misquoting is being misread - by everyone else but you. Pavets! Manooshag
Avetis, never negate what I, and so many others, quickly gathered from our homes to send to our
brethern in Haiastan upon its sudden freedom from the Armenian republic of USSR. What I gathered
immediately was useful... sheets/pillowcases/towels, clothing, lots of yarns and their needles - and fabrics, needles, threads, scissors, and more - whatever they'd need - and later to the Lachin area to be used, including two sweaters which I'd not completed. Later there were monetary donations... but the immediates that I (and so many others) sent them were transported via the generosity of the Lincy organization - still ongoing!
Armenia needs to recognize that the diasporans have had more experiences with the governments of the world - some good/some bad. And Armenia has to contend with the worst - a Turkey. Did Serge and cohorts forget the Genocide and the Turkish denials to date? A Turkey never to be trusted in whatever they endeavor - never.
This is when the leadership of Armenia, if they were patriots, shall have gained more insights in dealing with not only the Turks, by seeking our own people - our diasporans - who shall have openly discussed these Protcols which favor only the Turk! (Yet there is word that Serge/cohorts are filling their pockets).
By now I would have thought that the Armenians shall have learned to trust none but our own peoples - Armenians. (Except the pimples in our path, Serge/cohorts and the PROprotocolites
who all favor the Turks' demands - against the needs of our nations citizenry in all the villages.
Why criticize the hands that are stretched out - for the hands that will deprive Armenians of their
fledgling nation - Haiastan. Manooshag
Henry, you are obviously bothered by how some Diasporans you've met have, in your words, accused all Hayastansis of being lazy. Do you not see how you are doing the same thing that riles you up by stereotyping Diasporan Armenians? By lumping all Diasporans into one category as you have been doing, please also explain how you are so very different from the ANC -- who quite obviously does not have the right to claim to represent "all Armenians" either. There is not one person or organization that can, should, or has the right to. What you seem to have a beef with are certain Diasporan organizations. Kindly articulate that. Otherwise, if you look in the mirror you will see that you run the risk of becoming that which you abhor.
I agree with Arius. The Democrats are not about to put a single-payer plan out there, because the American people clearly do not want that. And, spare us the BS about universal coverage. That only matters to about 15% of the population. The cost-control issue is the most important thing to the other 85% and the Democrats have strongarmed the buying across state lines and tort reform ideas. All of this in spite of Obama's hollow "gestures" of good faith like his call for ideas in the healthcare speech in 2009. He said something to the effect of, "If you have a good idea, tell me." The Republicans HAVE told him they want these two things. And, by the way, these two Republican ideas would not cost the country a dime in deficit spending...unlike the mammoth waste of money that the public option would quickly become.
No, I wish it were only my personal experience. "Some" Diaspora organizations? Was that a joke? The ANCA, ARF, and the AAA collectively represent the vast majority of the traditional Armenian Diaspora, not only in America but across the world.
I addressed specific policies, events, and organizations. I even specifically addressed the issue about this being my only experience. You attacked...what exactly? No one organization can claim to represent "all" -- but all of them put together certainly represent what we refer to as the "Diaspora." If you're going to go on a lecture about how there are "other" Diasporans who don't agree with any of these organizations, it is irrelevant because those "others" (like myself) aren't organized and thus don't matter. But if no significant opposition has risen against these orgs it is clear none exists.
The only Diaspora group that seems to be doing and saying what I'm talking about are the Hnchaks, and they're a small group.
It's also funny how you said there are orgs different than the ANC...like what? The AAA? As far as I'm concerned, the AAA is a branch of the CIA.
"we must come together, with one voice and one purpose, before it’s too late."
The above statement must be the greeting of every Armenian from now on. Before the meeting, the members must meet and come up with a representative for this meting. This will show that Armenians are united in Diaspora. Otherwise, we will be defeated very easily by everyone as long as we are divided.
We need a new Armenian national political party to protect our national interest in everywhere!
If we are to assume that issues of mutual concern to Armenians in the US and the US State department include Armenia, then the present state, the status, of Armenia is relevant, and fundamentally so. And if we want to talk about the diversity of opinions in the Diaspora, fractures in the community, and the politics of exclusion, then we have to talk about the elephant in the room.
Where is the representation of the democratic movement in Armenia? Because it is not the ARF, the ANCA, or the AAA. It is not the ARS, or the Knights of Vartan. It is not this Prelacy, or that Diocese. In fact, every single one of these organizations either supports the ruling regime in Armenia today, supports the protocols, has financial investments tied in to the ruling regime, or some combination therein.
Not a single one of those organizations stood up for the people of Armenia, for the victims of March 1, for the youth who continue to be beaten for exercising their civil rights, or for the political prisoners.
So let's talk about exclusion, and lets talk about phony, shall we?
Is this guy calling himself "Justin" the phony, well fed and morbidly obese, and constantly sweating and swearing faux historian who is on the payroll of turkish intelligence agency?
Ferhat
Hey kool aid drinker, wake up. We do not want government to run everything in our lives.
Lower taxes
Smaller government
Strong Military
It is very sad the AGBU leadership is engaging in such practices. Simply sad.
Henry, you're misinformed if you think Diasporan organizations don't have opposition ... organized or disorganized. You sound ready to lead a brigade, though. How many dissenters do you expect to gather if you keep up your condescending attitude? Some advice: Stick to your topic when arguing rather than raise a whole new issue as a form of rebuttal. To think all of this started because the author of the article we are commenting underneath is a Diasporan who is being told by expat Armenians to relinquish his right to dissent and to exercise free speech. Don't we have enough censorship in America, in our Diasporan circles (and, heaven forbid, in Hayastan) as it is?
Despite her condescending tone, Tzitzernak has offered comments worth considering. The Armenian-American community, unfortunately, has taken a largely conservative position re Armenia. When the chips are down, most groups support the authorities rather than the people -- even when those authorities are clearly in the wrong. The only possible exception is in foreign policy matters related to Hai Tahd, where some organizations have taken a principled stand.
Unfortunately, Tzitzernak goes too far in extending 'exclusion' to our community as a whole. Let's be clear: This meeting is designed for SD to meet with the Armenian-American community (i.e. US citizens of Armenian ancestry), not with the democratic movement in Armenia. If the movement wishes to be represented in such meetings, it needs to find ways to have its voice represented through indigenous voices here (just as diasporan parties can only become relevant in Armenia if they succeed in having their voice represented through indigenous voices there). Otherwise, the proper channel is the usual one -- quiet, unpublicized meetings between the US Administration and Armenia's opposition (which has periodically occurred during the past 18 years, and will undoubtedly continue). So let's not mix apples with oranges here.
Proud are all FREEDOM loving peoples to have a great Kurdish human rights activist who has been working alongside righteous Turkish activists to bring freedom and justice to Armenians, Turks and Kurds.
Eren Keskins makes me a proud Kurd.
Ferhat
I agree that the ARS should be present at this meeting. But my interrogations is to wether we should be including the next generation in these strategic meetings... AYF, ACYOA, maybe others should also be invited.
You know, it's interesting that some Hayastantsis believe that Diasporans have no right to comment on events in Armenia, or to make suggestions or critiques. These people (and some in the Diaspora) say "You can't 'tell us what to do' unless you move here." That's their only answer. We Americans have a name for this: piggheadedness. I have never seen a Diasporan Armenian spurn a suggestion or critque from a Hayastantsi on the grounds that "You must move to America to be able to 'tell us what do do.'" If a diasporan said that, he would be castigated by other Diasporans.
The fact is that for all our faults, Armenian Americans have done a magnificent job not just creating a vibrant community that newcomers can fit into but which has done a lot in virtually all realms to help Armenia - going all the way back to even before the First Republic. We could do better but we have done well.
How often, however, do we see Armenian officials coming to speak before Armenian American audiences and encouraging them to work in some fashion to help Armenia? Where is the Armenian ambassador? I think we all know. In others words, Armenian officials make little effort to rally the Diaspora. They simply don't care. Armenian Americans have often volunteered to work here in some capacity, unpaid, to help Armenia. Many of these proposals have been turned down with a sneer. Let us work together and not try to keep the other out of the debate.
Hye, deliberate discriminations for inclusions/exclusions by the staff of the United States State Departments! Democracy in action - ala Hilary et al.
Of course the ARS, a womens' organization of dedicated volunteers over the last 100 years shall have a voice at this meeting. Not only for the Armenian women world over, but ell to present to the world that womens' voices shall not be shunted aside - that women shall be heard! Too, Hilary, as women shall support all such women - especially now, as women the world watch...
Obviously, the exclusions were to 'stack the deck' - Hilary, et al, your true colors are showing, again.
I can imagine you as the president of the United States of Armerica.... Manooshag
I think you all are missing the point, a democratic Armenia is a healthy Armenia that cannot be manipulated into signing any harmful agreements such as the protocols, and unfortunately NONE of the organizations, including the ARF affiliated have brought up that point. Lets be very realistic, there are other organizations in the Diaspora, in the USA that do care and actively pursue that. This is not an assault on the ARF members, or the AAA, or the AGBU, but their leadership, especially in Armenia is too connected to this corrupt Armenian regime, too much money is involved. Lastly, how can we demand Genocide recognition, a human rights issue, if we Armenians in the Diaspora are letting our brothers and sisters loose principle human rights in our own homeland?
I have been reading all the back and forth on this "forum". In response to some of the points brought up here, I would like to ask the following questions from all of you:
1. How many Jews are there outside of Israel? Have the Israelis ever told the American Jews that they don't need them and to mind their own business? Have the Israelis told the American Jews that they cannot interfere with their international affairs unless they are living in Israel? And let's say Germany had denied the Holocaust like Turkey, would have Israel asked that the Diasporan Jews forget about the Holocaust, all the loss in lives and properties in exchange to an economic alliance with Germany? This is not even a fair comparison because unlike the Jews, we also lost our historical lands.
2. How many Turks live outside of Israel? Will Turkey ever tell these Turks not to influence the governments of the lands they are living in to advance proTurkic interests? Why is Turkey paying American congressmen to actively sabotage the Armenian Genocide Resolution? Because the ANC is a powerless, disorganized and unmeaningful lobby? Why is Turkey spending millions of dollars in every forum imaginable to quiet the Armenian Diaspora, and to convince Armenia that the Armenian Diaspora is standing in its way? Why is Turkey actively creating a rift between Armenia and the Armenian Diaspora? Because the Armenian Diaspora is an economically and politically powerless entity?
3. What has Armenia done to the Armenian Diaspora?
4. What is Armenia getting from the Armenian Diaspora?
We should never forget that the Armenian Diaspora came into existence because of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by Turkey. Being a Diasporan was decided for us by our grandparents who had escaped sure death, who had lost their parents, who had no direction, advice or guidance from any organized Armenian government. These survivors however, have achieved a monumental triumph by upholding their Armenian identity, traditions and culture to spite those who wanted to eliminate our race. The Diaspora now is helping Armenia in all its capacities. Where Turkey is paying to have representation in the US Congress; Armenia has domestic "free" representation by Diasporan Armenians. When is Armenia going to take full advantage of its Diasporan resources? And yet not a single official "thank you" or any direct communication comes from Armenia. The Armenian Diaspora is Armenia's greatest asset in a world growing closer by technology and the Internet. Most of the Armenians in the Diaspora contribute within their own means to the betterment of Armenia. All we are waiting for is guidance and leadership from a strong, Democratic and just homeland. A homeland which continues to ignore us. A homeland that we will love no matter what.
This is touching.
Thanks Hrag.
Hillary Clinton has a lot to learn from running a failed-US State Department. Continuing to implement failed policies of the past will sink the Department into a greater State of failure to achieve its objectives.
What are the goals of the US State Department?
- Access route to the world's largest and most strategic gas & oil reserves in Central Asia (Turkmenistan & Kazakhstan)
Armenia is the only viable energy route (penetrating the Caucasus) for access and control of central Asian gas & oil fields.
Turkey is a corridor from Europe with a dead end (closed borders with Armenia); and Azerbaijan is locked-out from the West (closed border with Armenia).
Why not via Georgia?; it is deemed unstable and unreliable with continuous Russian destabilization efforts. No access via Iran; no access via Pakistan; and naturally no access via the Russian Federation. That leaves Armenia.
Why is it so important to the West? Because, it provides an end to Russian dominance (leverage and influence) of gas supplies to Europe. Russia would be wakened and later dismembered into independent republics (dagestan, tataristan, chechnya, etc..). Prevent China and India from developing too fast by controlling the energy reserves that China is competing with the West.
So Hillary, start thinking with a fresh and just approach; genocide recognition; accountability for the crimes of Genocide by Turkey; reparations; and restitution.
Dr. Kasbarian,
"Unfortunately, Tzitzernak goes too far in extending ‘exclusion’ to our community as a whole. Let’s be clear: This meeting is designed for SD to meet with the Armenian-American community (i.e. US citizens of Armenian ancestry), not with the democratic movement in Armenia. If the movement wishes to be represented in such meetings, it needs to find ways to have its voice represented through indigenous voices here (just as diasporan parties can only become relevant in Armenia if they succeed in having their voice represented through indigenous voices there)."
I generally agree that the pro-democracy movement has yet to organize itself -- but I think you misunderstood what Tzitzernak was saying. Why can't these organizations themselves be pro-democracy? If they're not pro-democracy, what are they? If they do not want to give the people of Armenia a voice (and in fact have directly stood in the way of that movement) -- what right do they have to talk about a treaty between the REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA and Turkey? If the lack of democracy in Armenia doesn't impact our community, neither do the Protocols.
But the Hnchaks are a "homegrown" voice in America who are pro-democracy. Granted, they are small, but if the ANCA and ARF are making the case that Hillary Clinton isn't meeting with a representative sample of the Armenian-American community, this also applies to them. As the AAA should be fighting to include the broader community in these talks, the ANCA should be fighting to get the pro-democracy elements in there as well.
And lastly, since you took such a thoughtful position re: Armenia in your first paragraph, why not organize a "homegrown" movement yourself? As Carin so correctly pointed out, no meeting with the Secretary of State can be as good of a defender of Armenian national interests than a democratically elected president. Your second paragraph was mildly true -- but out of everything that you could have said, it was a little disappointing.
Correction to my earlier post. I meant to ask how many Turks lived outside of Turkey.
It took me a long time to write this so I would kindly ask people reading it to give it some thought because I am essentially repeating myself. The major points are often missed and or never even addressed. But here we go again.
Pat,
"Henry, you’re misinformed if you think Diasporan organizations don’t have opposition … organized or disorganized. You sound ready to lead a brigade, though. How many dissenters do you expect to gather if you keep up your condescending attitude? Some advice: Stick to your topic when arguing rather than raise a whole new issue as a form of rebuttal."
Please point to the organization, NGO, newspaper, or popular website that is "in opposition." That is, an Armenian organization that supports the pro-democracy movement in Armenia. (Aside from the Hnchaks, which I already noted). My condescending attitude has often been validated by the rebuttals of people who clearly don't even understand basic facts, faces, and features of Armenian politics and recent history, and yet hold such passionate and radical views. Consider your question about "who will feed Diaspora soldiers if they go to fight?" After what me and Avetis said, do you realize how absurd it was? Or, consider your condescending tone towards me when I raised the issue of spies in the Armenian American community and how it could be a potential national security threat if those people were allowed to go to combat areas. You said I accused you of being a spy...is that what you heard? You fought my serious objection with an emotional appeal. If people were as offended by the actions of Armenian Diaspora organizations as they are about my condescending attitude, there would be no need for everything I am saying right now.
"To think all of this started because the author of the article we are commenting underneath is a Diasporan who is being told by expat Armenians to relinquish his right to dissent and to exercise free speech. Don’t we have enough censorship in America, in our Diasporan circles (and, heaven forbid, in Hayastan) as it is?"
At no point in my lifetime have I ever said we shouldn't dissent or exercise our free speech and discuss Armenia, give our opinions, or the like. In fact, in many respects I have been arguing the exact opposite. Am I not the one calling on you and these organizations to support the pro-democracy movement in Armenia? Am I not the one saying we should have been more critical of this regime earlier? Am I not the one saying I encourage all Diaspora Armenians to go back to Armenia because that is the greatest contribution you can make: living there, bringing your wealth and you ideas with you -- this could potentially lead to an Armenian Renaissance. If this is not what you heard through my comments and my other writings for this paper -- you have missed the core of my argument completely. In fact, no where in this forum did I say Boyajian shouldn't comment or analyze the Artsakh conflict. On the contrary, I enjoy his writings. What I am saying instead is this: The Diaspora ignoring the democracy movement in Armenia, the Diaspora over emphasizing genocide recognition, the Diaspora talking a big game about "Tebi Yergir" and "Independence" are not my opinions, they are facts. Consider this, if a Yerevantsi talked a big game about 'destroying the Azeri scum' in 1965, 1988, etc -- and then when war came he acted hesitant, never brought the firepower he pretended he would: how would a guy in Stepanakert feel? How would somebody who had to live with constant shelling for 3 years feel about the Yerevantsi? Just please think about that for a second. I myself am a Diaspora Armenian -- despite the fact that my family has personally contributed to the war effort in 1994 (driving supplies back and forth) -- I would never pretend to say I know what is good for the people of Armenia, or Artsakh. What I do instead is support WHATEVER they want for themselves. And ironically enough, they have always wanted more and better things for the Armenian people, and they have consistently made the better decisions. Look at the formation of the ARF in and the wide support it enjoyed in 1919. Look at the massive rally to protect Armenian civilization as we know it in Sardarapad. The building of the Tzitzernakabert memorial in 1965 is the first time Armenians consciously rallied around the concept of genocide recognition (and against a dictatorship no less). The Artsakh war is the first time the people of the homeland waged a SUCCESSFUL war in regaining our lost lands. They have pretty much accomplished much of what they sought out to do in terms of "nationalist goals." Their next move is democracy -- and instead of supporting them like we should -- we have stood in their way. We haven't even been "silent" (which is what many pretend we've done). We have DIRECTLY stood in there way. Instead of wasting your time calling me condescending, you should be calling up Aram Hamparian and Bryan Ardouny and telling them to WAKE UP.
To PaulTor,
"going all the way back to even before the First Republic."
Actually, although the Diaspora of 1915 is different than the one today -- ironically enough it acted much in the same way. You should read about how Vahan Cardashian faced an uphill battle (in fact, arguably, it was just him) against the Armenian community in rallying them around the cause of liberation and independence. Or, read about Boghos Nubar Pasha and how he rejected the authority of the democratically elected ARF (and bipartisan) delegation to the Paris Peace Conference because he thought they didn't represent "all Armenians." Had Boghos Nubar had the foresight to realize that his money and bogus connections to the world powers weren't going to get him the grand Armenia that he was envisioning, things might have turned out a little differently.
"How often, however, do we see Armenian officials coming to speak before Armenian American audiences and encouraging them to work in some fashion to help Armenia? Where is the Armenian ambassador? I think we all know. In others words, Armenian officials make little effort to rally the Diaspora. They simply don’t care."
This is perhaps the most arrogant and contradictory statement I have heard on this forum yet. Do you not realize how EVERYTHING that I have been saying is that THE ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE PEOPLE OF ARMENIA AND THAT WE SHOULD JOIN THE PEOPLE OF THE HOMELAND TO GET RID OF THEM? We seem to have the same enemy but I am the only one who is doing anything about it, and I am the only one who realizes it.
"Armenian Americans have often volunteered to work here in some capacity, unpaid, to help Armenia. Many of these proposals have been turned down with a sneer. Let us work together and not try to keep the other out of the debate."
This is true. For the past...let's say 11 years...most Hayastantsis in Armenia looked at the Spyurk has a benevolent force for Armenia. Doing the most it can and helping in important ways. Sure, it never really brought in fundamental change or change in grand proportions, but I guess how could it with the corrupt government it had to deal with. Since 2008, however, when the people stood up for themselves, the Diaspora sided with the authorities. There can be excuses about never supporting it with the amount of wealth we supposedly have, but there can be no excuses for standing in the way of democracy -- especially considering our rhetoric about a "free, united Armenia." Or even look at the response to the Protocols. Instead of Ken Hachikian telling Serge Sarkisian he is not the elected leader of Armenia and thus cannot make such a historic decision, he instead chose to nag about how Serge is ignoring the Diaspora. I believe you're trying to help Armenia -- you really are. Take my advice, stop confronting me, and confront your own leaders.
To Katia,
"1. How many Jews are there outside of Israel? Have the Israelis ever told the American Jews that they don’t need them and to mind their own business? Have the Israelis told the American Jews that they cannot interfere with their international affairs unless they are living in Israel? And let’s say Germany had denied the Holocaust like Turkey, would have Israel asked that the Diasporan Jews forget about the Holocaust, all the loss in lives and properties in exchange to an economic alliance with Germany? This is not even a fair comparison because unlike the Jews, we also lost our historical lands. "
This is an incorrect comparison in its entirety. First, the State of Israel is arguably a Diaspora-built state. Armenia is not. Second, the Jewish Diaspora has NEVER stood in the way of the Israelis picking their own president or what have you. Israeli administrations have swung from the far left to the far right -- and never has the Jewish Diaspora sided with the authorities over the people. Even when the last Israeli administration was less Hawkish as some in AIPAC would like it to be, nothing serious happened. I can't say that for our own highly emotional and ignorant Diaspora. You don't hear Jews in America saying things like that Fidayi's wife did in that video I posted, do you? Or the number of comments I posted above.
"2. How many Turks live outside of Israel? Will Turkey ever tell these Turks not to influence the governments of the lands they are living in to advance proTurkic interests? Why is Turkey paying American congressmen to actively sabotage the Armenian Genocide Resolution? Because the ANC is a powerless, disorganized and unmeaningful lobby? Why is Turkey spending millions of dollars in every forum imaginable to quiet the Armenian Diaspora, and to convince Armenia that the Armenian Diaspora is standing in its way? Why is Turkey actively creating a rift between Armenia and the Armenian Diaspora? Because the Armenian Diaspora is an economically and politically powerless entity?"
What?
"3. What has Armenia done to the Armenian Diaspora?"
Since when is it obligated to do anything. Thanks for proving my point though =).
"4. What is Armenia getting from the Armenian Diaspora?
We should never forget that the Armenian Diaspora came into existence because of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by Turkey. Being a Diasporan was decided for us by our grandparents who had escaped sure death, who had lost their parents, who had no direction, advice or guidance from any organized Armenian government. These survivors however, have achieved a monumental triumph by upholding their Armenian identity, traditions and culture to spite those who wanted to eliminate our race. The Diaspora now is helping Armenia in all its capacities. Where Turkey is paying to have representation in the US Congress; Armenia has domestic “free” representation by Diasporan Armenians. When is Armenia going to take full advantage of its Diasporan resources? And yet not a single official “thank you” or any direct communication comes from Armenia. The Armenian Diaspora is Armenia’s greatest asset in a world growing closer by technology and the Internet. Most of the Armenians in the Diaspora contribute within their own means to the betterment of Armenia. All we are waiting for is guidance and leadership from a strong, Democratic and just homeland. A homeland which continues to ignore us. A homeland that we will love no matter what."
What?
I deeply admire Ms. Keskin's moral integrity and strength of character. It takes a very brave person to express one's views so openly, given the Turkish government's determination to deal harshly with any Turkish citizen who dares to acknowledge the Armenian genocide.
Vahe
Henry Astarjians powerful article is a true expression of all brave Armenians that believe in our just Cause . And his articulation is so accurate. Hope this will reach to its true target.
Dear Antranig:
excellent choice of wording! "Conservative position re Armenia", huh? How about "ignoring all warning signals; or turning a blind eye on gross violations of human rights and dignity; or endangering the national security of Armenia by giving a card blanche to the oligarchic regime in power to run the country against the interest of its people? Which one these is conservative, you think?
But this is not the most serious exclusion of your statement---the most serious one is that you think that the movement for democratic Armenia is not represented in the US. My dear friend Antranig, it's time to see that this movement is here and is represented by MOST people in the Diaspora.....both with and without US citizenship!
Looooove the way the Weekly is talking about exclusion! They got their own skeletons in the closet.
Good job, Tzitzernak. Unfortunately, there are still some people (fortunately a minority) that don't understand that until and unless we have a decent government back home (the one supported by its people inside and, yes, outside f its borders!), they will all be subject to manipulations by the State Departments of the world.
The ARF did an excellent job, in this instance, of blowing the whistle on Hillary Clinton's State Department and achieved largely what it set out to do. So let us recognize that.
I want to point out that there are people in Hayastan and in the Diaspora who have been blogging this and other Armenian sites lately who demand that the Diaspora stay out of Armenia's business while some others, on the other hand, demand that the Diaspora organize a pro-democracy movement, which of course is an example of non-citizens trying to effect change in Armenia. So which is it?
Also in some ways, the Diaspora is caught in a Catch 22: Those people and groups outside Armenia who protest too loudly about the lack of democracy in Armenia sometimes find themselves unable to do good work in Armenia due to a government that is very unhappy with those who criticize it. The government can shut them up and shut them down.
Thanks for the great stories. Disney World is the best place anywhere for creating family memories. We are looking forward to the days when we get to spoil our grand kids at Disney World.
Armenians should demonstrate in force against all those traitors who agree to participate in such a divide-and-conquer meeting.
Katia:
Once an Armenian is in Armenia, he/she is no longer a Diasporan. It should be the goal of every Armenian outside of the Homeland to have a physical and/or spiratual connection with Armenia. Even if one can't move there or never will, they should make an effort to better Armenia, otherwise what good is it for them to call him/herself 'Armenian'?
Grigorian, you claerly do not read the weekly and have no idea how very different voices are expressed there... so, whatever!
I agree with Svetlana: In this case the traitors who agree to participate in such a divide-and-conquer meeting is the AGBU and the Armenian Assembly of America (AAA). I am ashamed and appaled of them both, when at this time of extreme importance for the survival of Armenia and the future of her sovereignty; they are both betraying Armenia and Armenian soil as well as Artsakh by acting like traitors and excluding the very voices of our entire people in the Diaspora. Shame on them both and I hope that they come to their senses before it's too late!!!!!!!
Point very well taken Carin, as the existing government of Armenia was not chosen by the people democratically; therefore they are clearly not the voice of Armenia when they signed the protocols. Furthermore, the protocols are not and cannot be in effect. This should be brought up at the meeting with Hillary Clinton and the State Dept.
Is Jan Schakowsky a victim of Turkish blackmailing? I see her name is not on the list, although I understand she promised to support it; and I read an article that a question was raised in the Kirkorian investigation into Turkish blackmailing?
I am just wondering because Hastert, Gephardt have supporters in Chicago and worked for the Turkish lobby; Hastert I understand still is.
Also, Northwestern U. has a student exchange program with Turkey; it used to be we studied in France, Germany, Italy. I say this to NU: who would want to go to Turkey to learn their version of history which is what they are teaching, and we know it is denial. The NU history dept. as well as the U. has gone down in quality; they don't have the high ranking they used to have; maybe they should note this. One student I met said the seculars in Turkey are really afraid of the islamists.
Who would go to Turkey to study genocide denial and be harassed for wearing short skirts or drinking wine?
Who established it and why is there an exchange program with Turkey?
I thought the river ran red because of Armenian killing of Anatolian villagers, that were left helpless since army men left the to]wn during the wartimes.
Karekin,
I have not ignored your previous request but I had written about this numerous times. What did Armenians do? Anything in the archives or I would or a neutral historian would say means nothing to the brain-washed, so I will quote here verbatim what two very prominent Armenian historical personalities said. These were men who were in the middle of it all and did not yet anticipate the genocide myth industry to blossom in due time, so there is a pleasant honesty in their statements. You will not find much reference to these in your tradition propganda material. So listen up!
Hovannes Katchznouni was the first prime minister of Republic of Armenia. He was a prominent Dashnak leader. His manifesto he presented in the Dashnak congress in 1923 is an excellent summary of the state of the affairs of Armenians and also a good insiders view of Armenian efforts going back decades to undermine and participate in the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, homeland of so many Armenians. Full text is below:
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Katchaznouni.pdf
Here are the parts I would like you to really absorb:
"It would be useless to argue today whether our bands of volunteers should have entered the field
or not. Historical events have their irrefutable logic. In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands
organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from
organizing and refrain themselves from fighting. This was in an inevitable result of a psychology on which
the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation: that mentality should have found its
expression, and did so.
And it was not the A.R.F. that would stop the movement even if it wished to do so. It was able to
utilize the existing conditions, give effect and issue to the accumulated desires, hopes and frenzy, organize
the ready forces – it had that much ability and authority. But to go against the current and push forward its
own plan – it was unfit, especially unfit for one particular reason:
instinct but weak in comprehension."
Also:
"The Winter of 1914 and the Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for
all the Armenians in the Caucasus, including, of course, the Dashnagtzoutiun. We had no doubt that the
war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered, and
its Armenian population would at last be liberated.
We had embraced Russia whole-heartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis
of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the
Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and
assistance.
We had created a dense atmosphere of illusion in our minds. We had implanted our own desires
into the minds of others;
we had lost our sense of reality and were carried away with our dreams."
Also here is the letter of one of the prominent leaders of the Armenians, Bogos Nubar Pasa, an Ottoman citizen, sent to the Allies and newspapers in the West, to make a case for inclusion in the Lausanne Conference, on the opposite side of the Ottoman delegates, among the Western powers trying to exctract thast few concessions from the new Turkish Republic:
The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed
The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed"
Is there anything to add to the above? Most of these people were born and raised Ottoman citizens, they held high posts in the Ottoman government and state! Given the massive and mortal threat Armenians presented, it is even commendable and remarkable how tolerant and accomodating the Ottoman policies were. I am sure very little of this will penetrate. Facts are no match to the power of myths.
Thanks are due to the Editor of the Armenian Weekly for providing a forum where the many voices of the diaspora can be heard. Judging from the above exchanges, and those that have not yet surfaced, there seems to be little consensus about the multitude of issues we all face. I'm not surprised, and in fact, welcome the differences of opinion.
I am, however, deeply disturbed by the absence of a profound outrage against the deaths of 10 Armenians killed by other Armenians because they dared challenge the authorities, and equally disturbed by the fact that there has been no concerted demand on the part of diasporan organizations to reveal the identity of the criminals.
We may point the finger at Secretary Clinton and demand that an entire army of 'representatives' from all diasporan organizations be invited to meet with her. But what will they say that the Department of State hasn't already heard or knows? More to the point, will they express concern about the fact that the courts of Armenia make a mockery of the basic tenets of Justice and Liberty for all? Will they ask the Secretary to help restore a modicum of dignity for a significant portion of the populace for whom daily survival demands a herculean effort? Above all, will they ask the Secretary's help to expedite the revelation of the names of those who wasted 10 lives and help their families have closure?
I fear not, for this large army of 'representatives,' a designation questionable at best, will be too busy trying to score points to hold it over their peers or picking up tidbits with which to fill their newspapers and impress shrinking constituencies.
Tzitzernak Armenian has helped shift the debate from the parochial level to the larger issues at hand and certainly more urgent ones. I thank him for that. But I disagree with those who think that he has gone too far. In fact, Tzitzernak Armenian has not gone far enough.
It is a good idea maybe for some of you to take a closer look at what Kurdish terrorism has done, the lives lost, and their victims, again mostly Kurds. Over 30K Turkish citizens have died as a result of Kurdish terrorism. Many of them terrorists themselves and their civilian victims, again Kurds. Though claims are made often about TSK killing Kurds, I am not aware of any killings of Kurdish civilians by the armed forces.
http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Volume_18/issue_2/rodoplu.pdf
As of this moment though, well over 5K members of the Turkish Armed forces have been killed in clashes with Kurdish terrorists and this does not even include police and the village guards I believe. Does this look or sound like the Turkish police and military is involved in some one-sided oppression or fight? Just imagine what another nation would have done. Certainly there have been heavy-handed policies and many civilians have suffered the consequences but there are very few innocents in this conflict.
The "river ran red" because "uha1"s greatfather was involved in killing millions of innocent Armenian women and children.
turkey committed this Genocide solely to empty off the Christian Armenians from their ancestral lands.
They are desperately trying to do the same to us Kurds, but they won't dare to arouse the passions of 21 million strong Kurds.
uha1, Kurds are patiently waiting for any one miscalculation on the turkish side, and then we will raise hell against turks forever. Watch out.
Ferhat
As an outsider Kurd, I believe that the ARF was and still is the "only" political organization inside and outside of Armenia, which has really worked for the betterment of All Armenians inside and outside of Armenia.
During 1900-1915 period, they were our worthy and chivalrous adversaries. Yes we fought each other, we had our disagreements, but my greatfather told me stories on how the ARF fedayis treated our women and children. They had this principle of "Never touch innocent men, children and women," which earned them if not love but respect of Kurdish civilians. I cannot say that about the turks, they mercilessly are killing anyone and everyone whom they remotely suspect.
Ferhat
Listen Up! Direct your anger and energy against the evil US State Department. Not fellow Armenians regardless what organization they belong. For God's sake, stop your petty arguments and think! Yes, think! Understand Armenia's geo-strategic importance and strength; learn how to negotiate.
Hy Murat, the Turks call the Kurds 'terrorists' so that the Turks can commit another Genocide.
Even recently, jailing a 15 year old Kurdish child- for many years - a young girl is obscene. Actually the judge in this case obviously and deliberately and knowing what this child shall face in the jail all those years - is a precursor to Genocide which is next for the bully Turks... The Kurds seek freedom from the tyranny of the Turks. As the pograms against the Armenians percursed the Turkish
Genocide of the Armenians - beginning in the 1890s.... and the Turk still is in pursuit of the Armenians - still, into 2010.
Manooshag
It's interesting to see how terrified some people are of the truth from ever coming forth, as evidenced by their belittling another nation and its people! Case in point is the post (which is typical) by genocide denial. Note how this person addresses NorthWestern University and their student exchange program! Dashnaks have become most spoiled and arrogant lately! Well, if they continue, they'll need to be brought back down a few pegs.
As for the call for a House vote, well, let's see what happens by that time. The truth has a way of working in all kinds of manner, and the best thing is, even when it's starring you in the face, many never see it coming until the time is right. Then even the most ignorant get a wake-up call! So, the only message that I can provide to you all is don't count your chickens before they hatch...nothing is ever a done deal! We too have our grassroots campaigns underway to make sure that the TRUTH gets through!
When I think that I helped little Ani Douglas do a paper on her Armenian heritage for school on the island of Bermuda, then we are each an embassy that needs to be opened for the business below.
The Tell Congress to Recognize the Armenian Genocide started four days ago with a goal of 10,000 letters, will crest 2,000 letters any moment now. Taking 45 minutes, I the 150+ pages of those who make up the 2,000 demonstrates how well this effort is working.
Respondents are now from 48 states and has actually seeped out to bring responses from 13 foreign countries (Armenia, Austria, Austrailia, Belgium, Canada, Germany, Greece, India, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, United Kingdom).
WE are all potential mavens, must get the message out and reinforce two things:
1. That each of us should send this to our email list of friends (my list went out to over 1,700)
2. Let people know that they can add a photo and write their own personal comments, (I learned I could have after I signed on but just look at these below that make up just over 2% of the respondents):
Words can not express the feeling one receives to see a friend from work or school or fellow war veteran adding their name and especially those letters going to house and senate districts which have yet to sign on or co-sponsor.
It is time we open up to our friends, colleagues, clients and our organizations' members yo just give them all this one clear and collective opportunity to express that which may have resided in their heart for decades.
Courage,
Manoog
Hye, morison, what is the point of your message? Bringing all the issues you are concerned about -
then mentioning an 'army of representatives' is as a pot of stew - gueveg. Armenia has its many
problems with it governments - so - look around you so too we also have problems here in USA!
The 'army of representatives' you mention - on the scale of justice - is top heavy with those who are
PROprotocols - ala Hilary... top heavy with those who agree with Hilary. Actually you enhance
the status of the ANCA - the lone 'opponent' who had been invited to the gathering by Hilary ' - much like King Arthur who was able to pull out his sword - and to lead his nation. At least here we think we
have a democratic government - well balanced and truthful - or do we? You too, as a PROprotocol,
are enjoying your 15 minutes with the likes of a Hilary... don't let this 'moment of power' so to speak,
go to your heads... Hilary runs the show, not you. Manooshag
I am glad there has been such an interesting debate. In response to some of the comments above, I will say:
-Regarding Catch-22's, diasporan involvement and a democratic movement: I am not demanding that a democratic movement by those outside of Armenia start. I would ask that the existence of the voice outside of Armenia that is pro-democratic, and against the present regime, be recognized as an important voice (that already exists), and not be shut-out. Those groups that demand broader diasporan representation in a meeting, should be doing so with regards to all issues - not just for those groups that are convenient to their own agenda. If we're all working together, than such organizations should be fighting for ALL viewpoints to be heard. If not, then they are doing the excluding.
- The point of supporting our fellow Armenians, is, in fact, exactly my point. Starting from the bottom up, the fundaments of our society, with both the diaspora and Armenia in mind. And that is exactly what these diasporan organizations did not do after March 1, and everything that has followed. Unity and support of fellow Armenians does not apply only when convenient.
-Not getting lost in petty things - I agree. Basic human rights, murder, beatings, and imprisonments - these are realities that are today, that should be fundamental to every Armenian. Most things after that are relatively petty and/or can be worked out. But, lets get our priorities straight.
Aha, so Murat you are meaning that the Kurds are killing each other, and the Turkish soldiers are staring at them, or maybe, helping them to stop killing each other. That will make a very good excuse for the Turkish soldiers, to be in that part of the Asia minor, isn't it. Murat tell to your friends, that the occupation is wrong way to solve the problems, it's simple as is, and everybody knowes that, your soldiers are not welcomed in that part of lands, as well as Armenian lands, that lands doesn't belong to you, you must know that, cause the origenal owners has never gave it to you, meaning, up to your armed forces, to politely get out of there, before it gets worse than it is now, nobody there has ever invited them, or asked them to come for help, belive me, that surely will start to solve many bad problems and massacres .
The TRUTH in bold letters is: turks, turkey massacred 2-3 million Armenians. The rest of what you are writing is all "nothings."
You committed the wholesale massacre of Armenians, the Genocide. kemal ataturks destroying of Ottoman archives was and is a well known fact to world historians. And no matter how much lies you build on the previous lies, how many loser historians you put on your payroll, you still will go nowhere. turkey's having a mighty army will never silence the truth and justice seekers.
So, you can lie until your brains fall out, but the Genocide committed by your people and government will in the end recognized by your terrorist government too.
Ferhat
Dear Armenians
You "must" start collaborating with Jews and Israel.
Complacency on the Armenian side is causing havoc amongst you Armenians.
A chance lost for you Armenians, is a chance gained for terroristic turkey.
Every people and every nation on planet earth know quite well turks bloody history, wherever they went, blood followed.
Berj, "politics makes strange bedfellows," is what the Americans say, am I right? What does it matter what the ADL or Foxman said in the past, now is the time to mend fences and start new. The more Armenians complain, the faster the turks feel in the gaps, and thus they are ahead of Armenians not by one step but 100.
In private Jews will tell you that turks are "unreliable" partners, not a surprise for us Kurds and Armenians, since we have known the turks for centuries. And turks will tell you that Jews are turkey's worst nightmare, and that they will strike Israel if they have/had the chance. The moral of this post: Armenians unite, Armenians make inroads into Israeli/Jewish politics. Make friends with Jews wherever they might be. Antagonizing the Jews will make all of our goals go to nowhere.
I hope Armenians will swallow their pride an move on the offensive and start building friendship bridges with world Jewery and the state of Israel.
Ferhat
Carin's point is quite valuable: There is an important connection between Armenia's domestic affairs and its foreign policy. In this case, boosting democracy should make Armenia less prone to outside manipulation (although i would caution that this isn't so automatically -- i can think of democratic movements elsewhere that, for their own reasons, have managed to cave in on foreign policy issues). And yes, our leading Diasporan groups must recognize this and work accordingly; otherwise, we may easily see a repeat of March 1, when most of the Diaspora fell silent and ultimately, acquiesced in the farce that ensued.
To clarify, i think we should distinguish between the 'democratic movement in Armenia,' as such, and the spread of pro-democracy ideas and programs in Diaspora. The former implies an entity or subject, whose representation is still thin among groups best-established throughout our community. The latter is something each of our groups should pursue -- perhaps with help from Armenia's pro-democracy elements.
At the same time, i'm concerned over something else: Those claiming to speak on behalf of Armenia's democratic movement often denigrate those who deviate, even slightly, from their priorities. Doesn't seem very democratic to me! (For example, can one discuss the Protocols -- a national security disaster-in-the-making -- without absolutely having to address March 1 in the same breath? Yes, i think so. The same goes for those who discuss March 1, who can -- and usually do --without absolutely having to address Hai Tahd in the same breath.) I've also found that those who make March 1 their primary weapon of opposition don't seem to take seriously the Protocols, the threats posed by Turkey and Azerbajan, or larger issues pertaining to Hai Tahd. I know there are significant exceptions to this -- some are found in this exchange, for example -- but the trend exists nonetheless.
In any event, a good discussion.
As somone who lost most of his familiy tree to Armenian butchers in Eastern Turkey around 1916, I whole-heartedly support the passage of this resolution.
No resolution of a political body oceans away, a century after the said events is in a position to pass judgement on thse events. Sooner this meaningless act is exposed and done with, the better it is.
Facts are facts, they do not depend on politics or parties or lobbies. They are there for all to see. Only myths need so much protection and artifical insemination.
I would like to see an end to this annual charade which casts a shadow on current and fruitful relations between Turkey and various nations. The emotional reaction of the Turkish establishment is what feeds the genocide merchants and gives them reason for being. Let them find another silly crusade to give meaning to their national identity. Maybe this time they can channel it to more productive ends.
Hye, messages from most Turks, are so convoluted... since they have been mislead in their history books by all the leaderships whose lied, not only to the Turkish citizens, but also to themselves.
They deny a Genocide the world knows they committed - deliberately planned and executed against the Christian Armenians - stealing the Armenian lands, stealing the historical sites of the Armenians, stealing even the Armenian culture, including Armenian cooking methods - as the Turk is of the hordes who came down from the mountains of Asia, knowing only how to kill and eliminate - to gain the Armenian lands as their own...
Pity the Turks who try to defend the historical beginnings of the Turks - no civilized advances in the realm of humanity - still as the hordes of the Asian mountains! Sadly, for the Turkish citizens, sadly for the rest of the world who have to contend with the bullying practices of the Turkish leaderships of today. Turkey can only be resurrected when their leaders of today are removed - as were the Nazis of Germany - for the freedom seeking Turks to succeed in liberating all the citizens of Turkey.
Manooshag
I agree with Mr. Kasparyan that this has been a good discussion, but alas, it may have come to an end due to Mr. Kasparyan's circular reasoning.
There is no policy change from heads of the Jewish organizations such as JINSA, AJC and the ADL. The heads of these genocide-deniers continue to deny and block formal acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide in the US Congress.
Before Jewish individuals join in a grassroots effort with Armenians; they need to ask their leaders to change policy on denial of the Armenian genocide. Otherwise what's the point?
Dr. Kasbarian,
I think you have missed the entire point of the movement all together. Considering we think that the current authorities and system of power completely shuts the people out of any decision making or any potential influence they could have on policy...what exactly would we be protesting if not that entire system? To even begin having some effect on policy, wouldn't we first have to create a system of power that draws its legitimacy from the people and not from Moscow or Washington D.C.? Protesting specific policies seems counterproductive. At the very least, it suggests we live in a normal democracy (and we know there are some "opposition" forces who pretend so).
In the shadow of Northwestern University is a small Armenian church; most of the people came from Turkey, only a few members are who they call the "Soviets." They are in fact proud to call themselves Americans. But they are so sad. Most of the older members are survivors or children of survivors of the genocide; they are the ones most affected and suffering mental illness(trauma?) from the atrocities. One book I read talks about the long lines in deportation where the men were losing their minds and the women were committing suicide. In fact, my Armenian relatives who were survivors that got to the USA were suffering from mental problems and one woman committed suicide because of the terrible atrocities she was witness to (plus losing two children). Murat, the long line continues on in the USA and other countries in the world where survivors and their children live now. You ought to meet these Armenian survivors, who were indeed innocent victims of crimes committed against them. Although their numbers are dwindling, as are the Jewish and other survivors of the Holocaust, we should keep their memory alive and make sure people don't forget the darkest days, because there is always the danger that this memory will fade. Evil can raise its face again.
The worst crime against humanity is genocide. If you are interested in criminal justice which I think means justice for the victims of crime; genocide is the worst crime and you would want justice for the victims. Yet Turkey keeps saying the genocide is a lie and muslims don't commit genocide.
This resolution affirms the crime of genocide committed against the Armenian people. Surely, the Armenian people are entitled to justice or closure. Yet while Turkey is putting forth initiatives which seek reconciliation; a psychiatrist in Hurriyet says if the "democracy initiative" is only for the purpose of setting up oil and gas pipelines and not for truth and reconciliation, a true reconciliation with the Armenians might need the help of psychiatrists. In other words, there is a lot of healing to be done here for true reconciliation, and it takes professional help.
So, I don't think Turkey is seeking true reconciliation yet, only the passage of oil and gas through its country.
I think, one, it is better to concentrate on the biggest crime against humanity (genocide); and second any truth and reconciliation means exacctly that, "truth" and "reconciliation."
With all the countries in the world seeking weapons of mass destruction and problems like Darfur today, we should try to punish those who attempt or commit genocide, and try to solve conflicts and reduce weapons.
If you or your family are a victim of a terrible crime, esp. genocide, it makes sense to speak out against genocide or educate people about it. It takes more than a resolution, of course, it entitles many more things.
We are all for democracy, human rights, and the rule of law.
But asking the US State Department, as some Armenian Americans have contemplated doing, to come down hard on the Armenian government for its human rights violations is a double edged sword. What they may be unintentionally doing is making it easier for the US to pressure Armenia to make concessions on Turkey, the Genocide, and Karabagh.
For example, the US may say to Armenia: "We are getting pressure from Armenian Americans to make you respect human rights. What are you going to do about it?" Armenia knows that the US is not serious about human rights violations. The US simply uses human rights as an excuse to pressure Armenia on other issues. So how does Armenia reduce this additional US pressure on human rights? By making concessions to Turkey and Azerbaijan. This is hardly what Armenian Americans want.
I don't say that we should not be pro-democracy vis a vis Armenia here in the US. But asking an outside power (the US) to intervene in Armenia's internal affairs comes with definite risks. The US is not interested in human rights, by and large. If it were, it would not be so cozy with Azerbaijan and Turkey and every undemocratic regime in Central Asia. Diasporans should use their own methods to advance the cause of human rights in Armenia and not rely on other countries.
A final point: democracy is not necessarily a path to perfection for any society. Does US policy always reflect the desires of the American people? Do our representatives in Congress always represent us? How do we measure what people want? I want to direct you to a recent column by Pat Buchanan on democracy:
http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2010/01/08/democracy-another-god-that-failed/
Henry,
I am very much aware that the Israeli government was imported by their Diaspora. Fact of the matter is however, that the Israeli Diaspora would have never been able to install a government there if that move was not supported by major players such as Europe, England in particular and the US. The Armenian Diaspora has no friends, even Armenia itself has not shown interest in it. Just like you said "it is not obligated to do so". The point that I was trying to make is that it is politically unwise for Armenia to dismiss and ignore the representation that it has for "free" by devoted American Armenians in the US, let's face it, still the most powerful and viable country in the world. Representation that is coveted by most everyone. Representation that Turkey is spending a lot of money to have. I beg to differ about the Israeli Diaspora not interfering with the government of Israel. Any time there is talk of giving land back to the Palestinians, major Jewish organizations in the US become very loud, and so far have been very influential in those decisions. You think we are emotional!... You should see how emotional Diasporan Jews get... I know, I work with them. Also, don't forget that most of them have dual citizenship.
I agree with you on the following: The Diaspora should not interfere with domestic affairs having to do with government funded services or rights citizens in Armenia possess. I don't think the Armenian Diaspora is doing that. I don't even think that there is much disagreement that open borders and oil pipelines going through our homeland will be beneficial to its economy. Most Diaporans agree that for a country to advance on all grounds it should have open borders and friendly relations with its neighbors. The Protocols however were not a "Good Deal", because they were crafted to have long term HUGE benefits for Turkey and Azerbaijan, and they did not mention ANYTHING about "fair trade" policies by Turkey. Why let go of our right for major reperations for the Armenian Genocide that can make up a little of the devastating hand it dealt our people. Why go into a deal, unless it is very well studied, and benefits the country and does not negatively effect any of its people. That's where the Diaspora interfered. I also agree that the people in Armenia should have more democratic and decent representation. But again, the Diaspora has really not interfered in that, opting more with the option of the people of Armenia realizing that themselves. You said "the Jewish Diaspora has NEVER stood in the way of the Israelis picking their own president", am I wrong in saying that the Armenian Diaspora has also never interfered with presidential elections in Armenia? Remember, just like AR said, once in Armenia you are no longer a Diasporan, and you should have the right to voice your opinion about presidential candidates. Any opposition by formally Diasporan Armenians living in Armenia should in fact not qualify as Diasporan interference right?
Bottom line is, Armenia and the Armenian Diaspora are facing unprecedented dynamics in their mutual existence, and a new way of existing on the same page should take shape soon, for the good of our homeland and our people in general. If Armenia wants more of the Diasporans to move in, it should start by respecting them and building a warm relationship with them. We should all strive to make Armenia more Democratic, safer, and economically sounder so that ideally we can all move our families there knowing we are making the right choice for them as people and as Armenians.
If you're going to oppose independence as you did in 1988 and 1990, if you're going to unwisely lobby against the Armenian adminstration in the halls of Congress as the ARF did between 1994-1998, if you're going to side with the authorities as they brutally order the Armenian army to attack its own people, suppress democracy, and jail Fidayis, and if you're going to reinvent Armenian history to paint yourselves as great liberators when in fact you have done none of that -- you can keep your money and your 'help.'
Thanks Dave for a very wise advise, you sound absolutelywright, I fully agree with your comment. And I hop some others will also.
Erin Keskin: A brave woman;
"One brave woman better than thousand speechless men."
_________________________________________________
Please can you tell us who is Dr.Nazim???
Murat, just like Justin, can manufacture phony stories about 3 years old poor Armenian orphans butchering turks.
Uhum, yeah right...grossly manufactured tear jerking phony story, but I'll give you credit for making it ridiculously funny, childish, simplistic and fake.
You committed the Genocide...period.
You're continueing the Genocide against Armenia and Armenians by destroying their cultural relics.
You keep adding murdered Armenians to the 2-3 million butchered Armenians. Latest addition..Hrant Dink.
You can buy the whole US state dept. Pay handsome sums of money to level D historians, you can increase your military arsenal 1000 folds, you can be the master of the Caucasus, you can anihilate Kurds and Armenians once and for all...but the fact that You cmmitted the Armenian Genocide stays firm and solid for generations to come.
Don't abuse kindness and respect granted to you by Armenians. Don't show your true turkic colors.
Ferhat
Serzh: Our Armenian President*,
How Can You Sell Our Precious Blood?
Can you sell your ancestors blood?
Tell me how you can sell.
How can you collect and sell.
From which sand you can collect.
For whom to sell. To our enemy—
Who slaughtered our unbirthed sons
and pulled our hair from crushed skulls
Till today smashing out trustful harts.
Think and tell.
Open names in international dictionaries.
In Who is Who Books
From past century—
Who left their souls in their land.
Without beloveds, how can they breathe?
Without loving cloths and motherly hands.
Remember their agonized faces
Emaciated, anemic,
Huge skins piercing the bones
Dehydrated, asking to seed.
Their tears bleeding, yet not dried
Dripping at night on pillows wet
Dreaming horrible scene of genocide
How can you abolish their horrible dreams?
Who authorized you to do such bet?
If you do so our cohorts will never forget.
Put you self in grave
And remember your genes of populate
Who are still waiting to be graved
In Anatolian sands watching the skies
Our laments wouldn’t see end.
Each soul had an Art
Could not be found
Each kind gene went
Cannot be replaced.
Drawback your
Unrealistic thoughts
Before infinite regrets
October 9, 2009
Well said Gaitzag
When I look at some posts here and on other Armenian portals, my heart sinks low. Armenians for some unknown reasons never try to find a common ground. It is either the left or the right, nothing in between. And this sad reality gives our eternal enemy, the turks, more power, more incentives and more opportunities to divide and conquer.
The whole Kurdish nation is looking up to the young Armenian republic and the Armenian diaspora for signs of unity but find none. And who benefits from this chaos? None other than the turks.
We all envy Jews and the state of Israel for their rock solid unity, but we never learn from them. That's why Armenia and Armenians need a new national leader, a second Tigranes II, who would unite all Armenians and make Armenia the most beautiful and the most envied nation on earth.
Ferhat
Hy, robert the turk, you do have a grass roots - and these shall be the true citizens of the Turkish society... seeking to overturn your misdirected, lying, deceitful leaderships Turkey has suffered all the years following the Ottomans... today in the vile Ottoman mentality. Sadly, you have been prepared to be educated with history books that lie to you - 'created' history books to reflect the distortions to suit your leaderships - with the lies to your generations - as these even lie to themselves - thus your leaders believe their own lies. Bullying to the world - denying the
Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - not by any wars - just by 'bravely' eliminating an unarmed people - slaughtering, raping,kidnapping, burning churches with women/children forced inside, rivers running red with their blood, and worse - bastinados - the viles form of tortures - before their deaths.... All this by the warrior hordes from the Asian mountains who came to take over lands for
themselves - but in all these generations since have not become civilized enought to join the civlized nations of the world... Genocides, of many peoples, is their mode of gaining lands, eliminating the
people!
You sadly, cannot believe these horrors - for you are told these are lies. Sadly, you have evidently not any of all the Archives, data and books, the International Genocide organizations to which the world has access... Sadly, then, and only then, shall you shall know truths - know what the Turkish nation is most recognized by all the civilized nations - GENOCIDES. Manooshag
Nobody is suggesting that these orgs lobby against the Armenian government with the State department or the halls of Congress (although if you are particularly concerned about that, you should note how the ANCA did just that between 1994-1998).
Instead, we are saying the most powerful case against the Protocols cannot be made by these organizations who the state department knows have lost all credibility with the people of Armenia, and who are slowly losing sway within their own communities. Read the latest issue of Masis (the english half) to understand why.
But that the pro-democracy movement is excluded from ALL representation is a matter of fact, and not just for this meeting.
Ferhat, when you (and others like you here that share your false belief) grow up someday you may realize that internal divisions and problems found amongst Jews are far worst than those found with us Armenians. International Jewry and the Zionist State are held together by two powerful factors -
1) an old Western group of billionaires and trillionaires, like the Rothchilds, who have intimate contacts with the Western world's most powerful policy makers...
2) an institutional instinctual fear/distrust/hate of non-Jews that comes from thousands of years of being persecuted everywhere and everyone -...
Comparing a small, poor and dispersed nation like us Armenians to a major religious/financial group that is firmly based in the most wealthy states of the West is like comparing apples to falafel.
Interesting thought Dave, but how would you justify keeping quiet here in the US about human rights violations and a lack of serious democratic reform in Armenia when our guys in Yerevan are already making grand concessions without us even beginning to exert significant pressure through Washington on the rights issue?
I understand your point but in all seriousness allowing this carte blanche mentality to prevail will not keep the Dodi Gagos and like at bay.
"The Democrats are not about to put a single-payer plan out there, because the American people clearly do not want that."
Not true. Polls repeatedly confirmed that the American public favors a public health option to compete with private health plans. In any case there is no private option on the table, nor is there likely to be one.
"And, spare us the BS about universal coverage. That only matters to about 15% of the population."
An incomprehensible statement. About 17% of Americans - that's about 50 million people - currently lack health insurance. About the same number will lose their health insurance over the course of any given year. When the uninsured fall ill, they seek expensive emergency care they cannot pay for, ultimately driving up the cost for everyone. As anyone who has even a minimal understanding of health care economics can tell you, the lack of health insurance is one of the primary cost drivers in America's health care system.
"The cost-control issue is the most important thing to the other 85% and the Democrats have strongarmed the buying across state lines and tort reform ideas....And, by the way, these two Republican ideas would not cost the country a dime in deficit spending…unlike the mammoth waste of money that the public option would quickly become."
Yeah, just like the public option known as Medicare is a mammoth waste of money, right? In any case, see above for why universal coverage is the best way to control health care costs. As for the deficit, CBO confirms that both the House and Senate plans will reduce the federal deficit by tens of billions in the next ten years, and hundreds of billions in the following decade. As for buying insurance across state lines, both Congressional plans would allow for this provided the insurance industry offers quality products (e.g. no rescission, no lifetime caps, etc.) and their current monopoly on state health markets is eliminated. Regarding tort reform: Obama was open to this idea, but Republicans, fearing they would actually have to negotiate, did what they usually do when faced with responsible policy: they ran.
Try studying the issue before commenting. Otherwise you're just part of the problem.
One thing I have noticed in every discussion of the Protocols (and in this thread in the comments of Tzitzernark and Carin) is the implication that nobody has the right to protest the policies of the Armenian Government that sell out the Armenian Cause unless they first prove their bona fides by having vigorously protested the Armenian Government's March 1 killings. Now I will be the first to say (as others already have) that the Diaspora and organizations that I support did not denounce the anti-democratic crackdown nearly as strongly as they should have at the time. But does that mean we have no right to protest anything else the Armenian authorities do ever again?
Similarly, when Carin writes "Lastly, how can we demand Genocide recognition, a human rights issue, if we Armenians in the Diaspora are letting our brothers and sisters loose principle human rights in our own homeland?" it raises an analagous question...How can anyone demand human rights for the March 1 protesters if they didn't protest just as loudly when Levon Ter Petrossian banned a leading opposition party, jailed its leaders, killed one in jail, and closed down 12 of its newspapers, television and radio stations, and news agencies?
Wasn't that also anti-democratic and a violation of human rights principles? Should we look at the record of each of the organizations that is screaming now and see if they were quiet then before we allow them the priviledge of protesting? Or is there there a footnote in Universal Declaration of Human Rights that says that its terms apply to every person in the world, unless you belong to the ARF? I'm not raising this analogy to silence anyone who has been attacking Serge's oligarchy and suppression of human rights. I am only saying: can't we criticize Serge for both his anti-democratic policies and his policies that surrender the Armenian Cause to Turkey?
Avetis
To succeed in our times and in this international arena, you need to move and act prudent. Armenia, as the smallest country in the Caucasus, with only 3 million people, and with an army of 10,500 (excluding the additional 30K stand by reserves) Cannot afford to be divided. Remember, a house divided will fall faster then a house united.
Why do you think turks are successful on the international arena, whereas Armenia(ians) and the rest of us Kurds, Greeks etc are not? Simple: turks are seasoned politicians, Armenia being a young nation, lacks that particular political savvyness that turks possess. Plus Armenias 101 plus political parties don't help much either.
Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing nor belittleing anyone here. As a friend to the Armenian people, and as someone who spend years learning your language and history, someone who has visited Armenia, someone who admires Armenian architecture, and someone who know everything about the Genocide, it hurts me seeing Armenians divided in a small country. That spells DANGER.
Yes, you might point out our situation. My people not only are divided along political lines, but we are divided along tribal lines too. That is the ONLY reason we don't have a country, and trust me it is a herculean job to teach one people divided along tribal lines. But since Armenia has achieved its independance, don't have any tribal issues like we do, therefore you have absolutely no room for mistakes which might spell disaster for Armenia.
That's all.
Ferhat
If it's wrong for Armenian Americans to criticize Armenia (some misguided people, you know, say Armenia's affairs are "none of your business" and "you must move there first"), is it also wrong for Armenian Americans to criticize Turkey?
Is it wrong for Armenians in Armenia to criticize Turkey or must they move to Turkey to be able to criticize Turkey? Could Hrant Dink expresss an opinion about Armenia or did he have to move there?
Was it wrong for Americans to have criticized the Soviet Union or did, let us say, President Eisenhower, have to move there to criticize the USSR in 1956?
Is it wrong for Armenians around the world to criticize, let us say, Israel, or must these Armenians first move to Israel? Does an Armenian have to move to Sudan to have the right to criticize the genocide there?
Must Armenians in Armenia refrain from criticizing Russia, the US, and Georgia unless they first move there? Can a Turk criticize Armenia or does he have to move there and gain citizenship from the Armenian authorities? Should a Turk or Azeri who lives in Armenia (now or in the future) have more rights in Armenia than an Armenian diasporan?
If Armenians in Yerevan wish to criticize Azerbaijan, must they first move to Baku, Sumgait, Gandj etc.?
Must Serge move to Baku? Must Serge move to Stepanakert?
Tell me: do Armenians who have not served in the Armenian army in Karabagh have the right to criticize Karabagh? Does an Armenian in Armenia have the right to criticize corruption in Karabagh, or even to support Karabagh's independence, if he or she is not willing to move to Karabagh or the "occupied territories"?
Tell me: Does an Armenian have the right to claim territories in eastern Turkey or must he/she move there first (say, to Kars)?
When a country does not acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, does an Armenian who is not a citizen of that country have the right to criticize it or must he shut his mouth?
If I don't like the fact that, say, Iraq has not yet acknowledged the Armenian genocide, must I move to, say, Baghdad?
Can I be concerned about global warming and polar bears or must I first move to the North Pole? Must a Hayastansti first move beneath the Atlantic ocean to be able to criticize the depletion of fishing stocks there?
EXCELLENT POINT DIKRAN. It should have been made long ago on this forum and others. You can thank Henry and his henchmen for desperately trying to push that warped idea based on his personal experiences of March 1st (I'm not justifying March 1st Henry - it was wrong - but don't let emotion entangle you more that it has). If people have beef with different political parties, religious institutions or policies of this or that party/organization/leadership etc that's great they should voice them BUT that doesn't mean that whoever doesn't share their frustrations should be marginalized or isn't qualified to make their own assessment about RA policies.
"How can anyone demand human rights for the March 1 protesters if they didn’t protest just as loudly when Levon Ter Petrossian banned a leading opposition party, jailed its leaders, killed one in jail, and closed down 12 of its newspapers, television and radio stations, and news agencies?"
That's a huge assumption, especially considering you know none of these people. How do you know they didn't? Or in my case, how do you know I wasn't 4 years old at the time?
But to answer the question: The Defense Minister of the time who carried out the banning, and "killings" and accussed the ARF of terrorism was none other than Serge Sarkisian. The ARF after March 1 joined a coalition with him. It seems they have forgiven everybody who was involved in that banning or found some justification behind it -- if they're ok with it, why would we obsess over it now? ;)
Here is the original letter from Sarkisian to LTP about the ARF in 1994, it's page 5 if you scroll down.
Once the protocols issue goes away (and go away it will), these Diaspora organizations will go back to the long sleeping slumber they were in before last September. Things will go back to the way they were. Or, here's a more important question for you: had the Protocols not happened, would ANYBODY be talking about the gross human rights violations Serge has committed. Would you yourself even care?
Thank You, Dr. Astarjian, for Your brilliant analysis of the spiritual situation in today's Armenia. I am very sad with Mr. Nalbandyan who projects his masochistic characteristics onto our great Armenian nation, being himself a mere bastard, and with Mr. Sarksyan, the illegal Armenian President, in fact, a mere terrorist, a person who is the source of 03/01/08 killings in the Yerevan Streets, who directly tortures hundreds and hundreds Armenian Families and indirectly robs the dreams and the future of the great generations of Armenia. At the same time, I have recovery -- I am proud with Dr. Henry D. Astarjian, a brilliant Armenian, the great Armenians – fifteen in number -- who are still in medieval Armenian prisons (human rights leaders do not see them?) as well as the great leaders of the Armenian National Movement -- Levon Ter Petrosyan, Stepan Demirjian, Aram Sargsyan, Davit Shahnazarian, Levon Zurabyan.
Hye, that means duman now is 22 years of age. Manooshag
The venom - and that's what it is - against Diasporans probably has its roots not in principled criticism of diaporan groups who did or did not take certain actions for the last 20 years, but in something else.
Probably a general frustration, jealousy, narrowmindness, or just the desire to sound off. Criticize these organizations if you wish - that's ok - but there is something else going on. There is an unwillingness to see the huge benefit that the diaspora has been and could be. It's a form of snobbery. There are people who have been dissatisfied with Armenian American groups for a long time, going back 70 to 100 years, and they will say anything to damn them and the entire diaspora.
I do not think that the average Armenian citizen dislikes the diaspora. I do not think that they think the diaspora should mind its own business. The ARF, Ramgavars, Hunchaks, and other groups could be nearly perfect, and the critics would always find something to damn them. When you are dissatisfied, it is going to find an expression somehow, somewhere, sometime.
There's a nastiness there that is just waiting to get out, and there is nothing we can do about it except to continue to keep working for Armenia. Maybe those who dislike the diaspora and fault it for every thing it has ever done can help the diaspora to overcome the crime that some in Armenia have brought into the heretofore largely peaceful and law-abiding Armenian American community. As if the diaspora didn't have enough problems before this phenomenon?
Tom,
"Maybe those who dislike the diaspora and fault it for every thing it has ever done can help the diaspora to overcome the crime that some in Armenia have brought into the heretofore largely peaceful and law-abiding Armenian American community. As if the diaspora didn’t have enough problems before this phenomenon?"
There we have it! I'm glad you were able to hold off your anti-Hayastantsi venom to phrase that so neatly! I also enjoyed how you lumped the ARF, Ramgavars, and Hnchaks into one category -- that only shows how ignorant you are of your own community (for your information, the Hnchaks happen to agree with almost everything we're saying here -- I even linked to their Masis paper).
But just out of curiosity, if what we're saying is "venom" -- and nothing else -- what exactly would criticism be like? Along what lines would an honest criticism of "the diaspora" be?
I also find it kind of strange that just because we are at odds with these Diaspora organizations -- we seem to be at odds with the ENTIRE Diaspora. And also, why exactly are we, proud citizens of the United States, not considered to be part of this "Diaspora" that you love so much? Why are we outsiders?
Anyway, I could go on a rant about the Armenian mafia and Beiruit...or the assasinations that took place during the formative years of the Armenian American community...but lucky for the Weekly's readers I'm not going to stoop that low.
Varant, I agree with 'If people have beef with different political parties, religious institutions or policies of this or that party/organization/leadership etc that’s great they should voice them BUT that doesn’t mean that whoever doesn’t share their frustrations should be marginalized or isn’t qualified to make their own assessment about RA policies." BUT if these organizations have yet to admit their mistakes, show us that we're headed in a different direction than the one we were on before, or at least have some symbolic gesture towards the pro-democracy movement -- what exactly has changed? The Protocols, believe it or not, are not the greatest threat the Armenians face.
To: Samvel Jeshmaridian, PhD -- When and how have anti-Armenian people like Levon Ter Petrosyan and his ANM become great leaders? By betraying people's aspirations after the Karabakh movement? By allienating themselves from the people and enriching themselves on people's account? By imposing artifical blockade and miery that led to the death of thousands of people? By wiping off all the opponents, critics, or former Soviet Armenian officials who knew what foreign forces these 'great leaders' represented as their agents? By selling out everything valuable that the country had? By rigging elections in 1996? Or by rapproaching Turkey with no regard for the genocide recognition? Or by an attempt to sell out Karabakh in 1998? What are you smoking, my 'friend'?
Ferhat,
Armenians are often united when it counts the most. These divisons are ultimately political and thus healthy.
Ferhat, I don't know where you are getting your wacky numbers regarding Armenia's military from but I suggest you worry about your "tribesmen" (currently led by the CIA and the Mossad in northern Iraq) instead. For your information, Armenia's active duty military personnel number around 75 thousand. And Armenia's leadership simply cannot afford to make any mistakes, and thus far it has not. Against immense odds and without any Western support, we Armenians have been able to create a viable, powerful, progressing nation...
OK Henry, I hope and pray that Armenians stay united.
Wish you all well.
Your Kurdish friend..
Ferhat
Berge
In politics, relations do not end abruptly. Even though most Turks hate Jews, Armenians, Americans and Kurds, Israel and the Jewish diaspora cannot change 50 years of strategic alliance with one stroke of a pen. I too am disgusted with the Jewish lobby's anti-Armenian stance, but it will change soon, very very soon. Israel will not stay silent for long. The anti-Israel rhetoric of tuirkish politicians and the rise of Islamic fascism is on the rise. Remember the garbage coming from erdogans mouth, and the murder of Christian Turks on the hands of these so called grey dogs?
Besides the US needs military installations in the middle east, and occupied Kurdish territories are used for that purpose.
I hope and pray that the weapons supplied by Israel to the turks won't be used against Armenia.
I hope that Israel has some kind of contingency plans to subdue turkish hooliganism if and when it gets out of order. Only Israel can teach turkey a well deserved lesson. We pray for that day..
Until then, it is a wait and see situation.
Ferhat
This would have been a very nice article had it told the reader what the "Elect the Dead Symphony" is actually about. Is this some sort of joke or play on words? What, may I ask, are we to make of“Gate 21”? Is this about someone's running late to catch a plane at an airport?
Some people just like to complain. If someone says A, they'll say B. If someone says B, they'll say A. If you point this out, they'll change the subject. It's endless. Pretty soon, all that person knows is that he has a huge need to talk and complain instead of doing something about it.
Incidentally, Armenia is a haven for Kurds that respect our nation. Despite cultural differences, Armenia has a record of being a friendly destination. Too bad its neighbors don't reciprocate.
And also, why exactly are we, proud citizens of the United States, not considered to be part of this “Diaspora” that you love so much? Why are we outsiders?
Henry, You’re considered an outsider because you portray yourself an outsider. I’ve read many of your posts over the last few months and when you refer to the diaspora or diasporan organizations you generally put yourself on the other side of the fence. You refer to them as “they” and not “we”. You’re generally one of the first to post comments (which is great by the way) and you set the stage. I would never guess that you’re a citizen of the US. Based on your writings, I’d think you just came over from Armenia. That’s not because of your actual opinions, but because of the way you express them. You are in fact part of the diaspora, and you are in fact someone that these diasporan organizations represent. That being said…..what have you done to change the situation here in the US? I know you’re not on the governing bodies of any of these organizations. But…..just as I’m not a politician, I still have an indirect say in US policy. The beauty of the democratic process is every vote/voice counts. Have you approached your local rep from the ANC, Armenian Assembly, or any of these other organizations? Have you tried to get your opinion across to those that represent you in meetings like this one with the State Department? Have you tried to organize other people that share your opinion? Have you done anything other than talk down to people in forums like this? (And yes, while you’re usually articulate, you have a habit of talking/writing down to people. Once you start calling people and their opinions “ignorant” you move from healthy debate to name calling.) If you’ve done any or all those things, then I applaud your efforts. If you haven’t, then I think it’s time to get off the keyboard and take some action. I find it so ironic that the organizations you’re against actual share your opinions on the current situations. I don’t think you’re for the protocols, and you’re clearly not a supporter of SS. YES, these organizations should have stepped up sooner. YES, there’s more that could have been done. To take a stance of “too little too late” though is short sighted. What exactly are you waiting for on an admission of mistake…..a formal letter of apology? You want to see that “we’re headed in a different direction than the one we were on before”. I believe you claimed that previously, the organizations were either publically supporting SS or just not standing up against him. Now they’re standing against him, which seems to be what you think they should have been doing all along. I don’t think you’re going to get more of a direction shift than that.
I don’t know you Henry. Maybe you’re nothing like how I perceive you, but this is what you project through these posts. Bottom line, I hope you’re actually making yourself a part of the democracy you’re advocating. Like I said, I don’t know you, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are. Having an opinion is great as is debating that opinion. If you really want to make a difference though, I hope your opinions are more than just posts on armenianweekly.com and Facebook. (Yes, I read some of your stuff there too around the time of the protocol protests. The part about women and children protesters in the diaspora that should be beat within inches of their lives in order to understand what the people of Armenia went through particularly caught my attention.)
Great Article by Appo Jabarian (02/08/10 issue of USA Armenian Life Magazine), here's a small excerpt of it below:
"Were the protocols a curse that unwittingly yielded a set of blessings? Positively, they produced some very tangible unintended blessings - far-reaching and durable accomplishments by Armenians.
- An unprecedented number of 60,000 (yes sixty thousand) Armenians took their disapproval of the Protocols to the streets in Yerevan strongly criticizing the government of Pres. Sargsyan, yet not one Armenian's nose bled. Whereas the 2008 post-presidential election demonstrations by pro-Ter-Petrossyan protesters numbering a mere 20,000 (twenty thousand) caused the ransacking of storefronts in the center of Yerevan and clashes with Police that contributed to the deaths of several civilians. In stark contrast, the 2009 anti-Protocols demonstrations were marked by discipline, law and order;
- The worldwide opposition to the Protocols re-enforced the correct notion that the Armenian people in Armenia-Artsakh and the Diaspora are united in their efforts to help protect their national home;
- The Armenian Diaspora gained recognition for its importance as a strong political power both by Armenia's president and Turkey's Prime Minister. Pres. Sargsyan embarked on a Diaspora-wide visit to the large centers of the Armenian dispersion not necessarily to pay homage but to "sell" the Protocols as being a "good deal." Even though the Armenian Presidential tour was qualified as being a mere show, it still underlined the importance of the Diaspora. As for Turkey's Prime Minister Reccep Tayyip Erdogan, in an October 2009 interview with The Wall Street Journal, in a pointed reference to the Armenian Diaspora, he said: "When Pres. Sarkisian was on an international visit, he was faced by a reaction from the Armenian Diaspora. So what he does in face of the reaction of the Diaspora is very important. If he can stand firm, and if it is the government of Armenia and not the Armenian Diaspora that is determining policy in Armenia, then I think that we can move forward;""
"- The emergence of a patriotic opposition that's loyal to the national security and interests of the Armenian state. The harmonious opposition jointly mounted by the three traditional Armenian political parties has served as a model for healthy and constructive opposition. Additionally, the new opposition reaffirmed its intention not to let their disapproval of Armenian leadership's policies serve as a reason for cutting aid to the needy; for stopping the investments in the country's economy, and for declining to visit or settle in the homeland."
Avetis, I got it through Wikipedia.
Ferhat
Hmm, Mike...I seem to be a personal intrigue for many people (my name has come up many times -- often not in a good way -- throughout the Armenian American community in recent months). And you seem to have addressed me and not the issues at hand, which I hate doing because it doesn't make healthy discourse. But your comments were actually thoughtful and I guess you deserve a response.
I have done more than most. I have volunteered at day orphanages in Armenia and pursue developments there often (as you can tell). I go almost every summer, and I try to visit the villages and provinces as often as I do Yerevan. and I have met/know/have spoken to very high ranking members of both Levon's Camp, Kocharyan's Camp, and everything in between. We lost relatives during the '88 Earthquake and my father and uncle were part of the first responders (at least from Yerevan). Furthermore, my family was involved with driving supplies in and out of Artsakh during the war (across enemy lines and yadadada). Other members of my family (keeping aside the mandatory conscription) serve in the Army as high ranking officers. We also left for no other reason except a purely medical emergency. And even then, we waited until the war was over. I no doubt believe had we stayed, I would be playing a good role in Armenia's future, as I am here.
In terms of American organizations...I have done everything from calling my representatives, emails, and letters. I've also personally interned for the ANCA. I was part of a delegation with Oshagan Srpazan and a few ANCA board members going around Capitol Hill. I carried their luggage (literally) and took pictures (hence why I'm not in them, although the text mentions me), and I did as much I could (I'd like to think I convinced Peter King, my House Rep, with the help of the ANCA, to make a few remarks for the House record on the Armenian genocide that year). It was a rewarding experience and I bought the female staff flowers the day I left. I thank them for their experience, and I hope once people clear their heads of the gross misconceptions and presumptions they have of me they can see that I have worked with all of these people, been involved, and continue to be involved in many ways (especially on an issue like genocide recognition, which has no partisan lines I hope). I have also been honest, everywhere I have gone. I made no secret of my Levon sympathies at AYF meetings (yes, I used to go). I can say that most of my "opponents," unfortunately, are not. I'm not judging an entire viewpoint based on the people who represent them, but that has been my personal experience. I have also been a camp counselor at Camp Haiastan -- and I'd like to think I was one of the few there endowed with "cultural" or "educational" skills (me and about 4 other counselors). Right now, I'm organizing a local based committee to get Peter King to sign on as a co-sponsor for the genocide bill -- I think there are enough Armenians in his district to at least give it a shot -- although he wins his elections by about a 12 point margin at the very least. And this was ALL after March 1.
Furthermore, I've helped organize a New York-Yerevan conference between members of our youth to try to create a better understanding between us. This was with the AGBU folk. I semi-moderated the event and I think it was quite a success. (You can "FIND" my name Henry if you want to see what I said/did in those articles). I have also worked and interned at numerous AAA or Diocese related organizations. I have also been to many AAA events and have spoken with Bryan Ardouny (and Aram Hamparian) many times (discussions often reach 30 minutes). I have heard their responses (excuses) and concerns on all of these issues. Furthermore, I have talked to board members on these organizations. I have also followed their press releases and the email newsletters. I am very familiar with all of their ideas, I have confronted them, I have engaged them, and I have listened to them (more listening than anything, I would say).
I have also chosen to write about and discuss Armenia as often as I can. I can tell you I convinced every single one of my history teachers in high school to spend time on the Armenian genocide. Recently, I think I encouraged one of my Ottoman studies professors (a denier, nonetheless) to include Henry Morgenthau's story in the lecture class's reading material. I just recently finished my 47 page paper on Armenian national identity and its divisions. You can read it here, it's called APeopleFortheMountains.
In the Diaspora, I fight the fight I'm fighting now. In Armenia, when I can, I fight for women's rights, pessimism, and a-nationalism. In the Hayastantsi community here, I fight certain mentalities.
As you can see, I am personally familiar with, have worked with, have helped, and have engaged the entire spectrum of Armenian politics -- both Diaspora and in Armenia. That is actually quite unusual. I have yet to meet somebody who has done the same. Most people tend to hover to one camp, and or if they don't like what they see they disengage with the community altogether. I have met widows of Fidayis who died in war, Fidayis still alive and rich, Fidayis still alive and in jail, and widows of Fidayis who's husbands were...let's just say gunned down...on the streets of Yerevan by...let's just say people with authority.
I have also NEVER used my past deeds and accomplishments to propel my current ideas forward (although you can see how advantageous that could be). I speak out not because I'm ignorant of these organizations and these people, but because I know them as good as they know themselves. I have also yet to meet a young person in the Diaspora (although this is relevant for the older ones too) who is as informed as I am about what has been going on in Armenia since 1991. I'm not talking about some opinionated analysis, but knowing simple facts, faces, and events.
Also, I am organizing a "home grown" pro-democracy movement here in the States. Hopefully we can break the status quo.
And lastly, I use my full name when I post on the internet. I addressed the "hope you get beat" comments on another thread and I don't see why I should do it again. People who keep bringing that up need to get over it, quickly. If I were to hang on every little insult people on the other side of the fence through at me -- trust me -- we'd never get a proper discussion going.
You have also misunderstood my usage of "we" and "they." I often use we, but it is incorrect to say that these organizations represent me. Far from it. (Although I appreciate you being conscious of such things, WE all should be) ;).
I hope my personal life, my personal heroics, personal flaws, and the egos of my opponents can be set aside. There seems to be more important things at stake.
And lastly, since this is a personal note -- I thank the staff at the Armenian Weekly for tolerating diverse opinions. If the Diaspora could have more of this, you might still have passionate people, and also ignorant people, but I bet you you'd have less passionate ignorant people (quite a dangerous combination).
And now, if I may comment on something substantive:
"I find it so ironic that the organizations you’re against actual share your opinions on the current situations. I don’t think you’re for the protocols, and you’re clearly not a supporter of SS. YES, these organizations should have stepped up sooner. YES, there’s more that could have been done."
No. These organizations did not keep silent or "not do enough." In fact, they acted as branches of Kocharyan's and Serge's regime, especially through the media. In many ways, they continue to do so today without realizing it. Right now, if you happen to be an opposition party in Armenia, your protesters get beaten, killed, stabbed, humiliated, your offices are destroyed, your press is censored, your candidates are barred from running, and your businesses are taxed to death and or taken from you. This is not just a local Hayastantsi issue -- but in fact it is also relevant to many Diaspora Armenians who try to do good in Armenia. And it isn't just a Levon thing, other opposition groups get treated like this as well. For some strange reason, however, the ARF's supporters are free to roam the streets of downtown Yerevan, ARF heads go on TV and give hour long interviews with State Channel 1, and they get to hold as many protests as they want without policy brutality. Also, the ARF gets to have its VERY OWN TV CHANNEL (Yerkir Media), and ARF oligarchs (like Hrant Vartanyan, Bagrat Sarksyan) get to keep their businesses (Grand Tobacco Conglomerate, and Media Mogul, respectively).
The other "camp" in our community tends to be wealthier. They all have major business ventures and investments in Armenia and it is just as much in their interest to keep the status quo as it is in Serge's and Kocharyans (same goes for ARFers IN Armenia). (This might explain some Diaspora orgs's silent support for the Protocols). Don't get me wrong, some are legitimate folk that are honest in what they do. But honest people seldom get what they want.
From my very first comments on this forum -- I have tried to open your eyes to this. Nothing will change until we break this taboo and break the establishment.
"What exactly are you waiting for on an admission of mistake…..a formal letter of apology? You want to see that “we’re headed in a different direction than the one we were on before”. I believe you claimed that previously, the organizations were either publically supporting SS or just not standing up against him. Now they’re standing against him, which seems to be what you think they should have been doing all along. I don’t think you’re going to get more of a direction shift than that."
Actually, a letter of apology is exactly what I want (and exactly what the people of Armenia want). Apologies are taken seriously in Armenia and it takes a lot to apologize. It shows sincerity. But if not, they can stop spreading propaganda about Armenia's opposition. They can be more balanced in the media. Symbolic gestures might be powerful tools as well, but this is just the beginning, there is much more they can do. ACTUALLY, I know VERY high ranking people WITHIN these organizations that are sympathetic to everything I have said. All they would really have to do is put those people in the driver's seat.
You see -- right now this "opposition" is a one-time advocacy issue. And even then, it is directed against Serge Sarkisian...who is by far a more benevolent leader than Robert Kocharyan ever was (for one, nobody has been 'gunned down' yet on his watch -- that's a great leap forward from Kocharyan's days). The power dynamic is not so much between Serge and Levon, right now (although it's important), it is between Kocharyan and Serge. In fact, everything the Diaspora is mad at Serge for doing, Kocharyan has done separately. He has recognized the border. He has formed a 'historical commission' -- (remember TARC?), and he has committed human rights violations/oligarchies/all that good stuff. Why are we all of a sudden mad at Serge? If anything, the Protocols are a STEP AHEAD of Kocharyan because we might get an open border with them.
And lastly, to directly answer your question... Usually when an organization wants to do what you are advocating...their leadership rank resigns. (Often they only resign and still play an active role, but nonetheless they resign because they do not have the credibility to lead forward, and they need to give the new "direction" they've decided to take some force). There was an article on this recently, actually. Sadly, nothing has changed.
Hope this was helpful.
This is EXACTLY why Armenian-Americans need to coalition build with Christian groups in the Bible-Bet. It will disintegrate the military/energy driven base that supports Turkey and Azerbaijan. I just don't understand why Armenian lobbying groups are not intelligent enough to understand this concept.
Obviously there are ulterior motives that the ANCA and AAA don't want to share with their donors. Oh yeah and the corrupt Armenian Apostolic church who wouldn't want a coalition of different Christian denominations. They may 'lose' people. Idiots!
This is why we NEVER win and will NEVER have justice.
STOP this! We're ONE nation, made of, figuratively speaking, one flesh and blood. Of one faith to Christ. Proud of the same history. Ancient people. Filled with the same sorrow, pain, and retaliation desire for what befell us in the late 19th early 20th century in the Ottoman Turkey. Filled with pride for winning the war for Artsakh. Re-concentrate your attention at modern challenges. How to get rid of unelected, inherently corrupt crooks in the Motherland, how to bring open-minded, patriotic, public-spirited people to the highest echelons of power? How to develop Armenia economically. How to preserve the country's human resources and our unique genetic fund? Our adversaries, whoever they may be, are using this artifical split in ONE nation to advance their anti-Armenian interests in the broader region. Do NOT paly into the hands of these evil forces. Be clever! Be Armenian!
The AAA and AGBU just issued a joint statement regarding the Clinton meeting. Funny how they accuse the ANCA/ARF of playing games with the meeting, but they are the ones vetoing the participation of the Prelacy, the Catholics, the Protestants, the ARS, among others. I wonder why the Diocese didn't sign that press release. Perhaps they realize that they shouldn't be blocking the participation of the Prelacy, Catholics, and Protestants.
People living in the diaspora should go to "barahanteses", sing patriotic songs, build churches (preferably at opposing corners of the same street), eat shish kabob and pretend that they are helping Armenia.
If you want to be taken seriously and want to make a real difference for Armenia then you have no choice but to get up and go live in your country where you can try to make an iota of a difference. Who cares if you write nice articles or have something meaningful to say. No one gives a damn.
11 Individuals from the diaspora showed up to take part in the last Artsakh war, the 12 individual did not exist and could not be found. Selectively patriotism is true hypocrisy.
Go ahead, write another nice article, see if anybody gives a damn.
Here is part of the AAA's press release today:
"Late last week, unfortunately, a specious editorial by the Armenian
Weekly, about the upcoming meeting with Secretary of State Hillary
Clinton, not only misrepresented the facts, but unfortunately sowed
seeds of division instead of presenting a united front. While the State
Department had asked for discussions to consider expanding the meeting
to include four more slots, the Armenian Assembly of America and the
Armenian National Committee of America/Armenian Revolutionary
Federation could not reach consensus on who those additional
participants should be or several other matters. To date, the Armenian
National Committee of America has not even confirmed whether it will
attend or not, regardless of the ultimate configuration of the meeting
participants, and has also declined to meet at the Embassy of the
Republic of Armenia with all the groups invited prior to the meeting
with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton."
My questions:
1) Are AAA and AGBU now both in the same line of work? One is a lobbying group/political group (AAA) and the other (AGBU) is supposedly non-partisan. Is this now a formal alliance? AAA speaks for AGBU now? I would think that AGBU would be embarrassed by this.
2) Who-oh-who ever thought up the wrong-headed idea of Armenian American groups meeting at the Armenian Embassy just prior to a meeting with the US State Department? I am shocked. This is such bad form. Look, Armenia is a foreign country. You can visit the embassy. You can do lots of stuff there. But American groups, even Armenian ones, are not supposed to huddle with or at a foreign embassy under the present circumstances. It makes it look like the Armenian American groups are getting marching orders from a foreign country. This makes Armenian Americans look clumsy and foreign. I am flat-out aghast and utterly bewildered by this mis-step. Meet anywhere else but the embassy.
3) Exactly what organizations were discussed as being "candidates" for an invitation with Clinton and what were the disagreements between AAA and ANCA? AAA is being very sly. There is also something very condescending about the AAA's press release.
4) I notice that the AAA has lately become more aggressive against other Armenian groups than it is even against Turkey. Has the AAA become an adversary of Armenian Americans? I would like to see AAA be as tough against the Turks. I fear I will be waiting a long time for that.
I think it's worth pointing out that Romanoff always supported the same General Assembly Resolution that Weins did and spoke during its passage on the floor.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2007a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont/45963EA5E45D5015872572A4005D3B2C?Open&file=SJR030_enr.pdf
Ferhat,
It is no use.While you were the only one -regrettably not a single co-Armenian- to cmment on my above few articles -(for they are busy with their over-enthusiastic give and take,I do appreciate your comments and that come from a Kurd.Me? I really think your presence here of utmost importance,since you -your people have lived alongside our s for millenia-WE WERE BOTH OF same religion then,before we accepted Christianity and then your people Islam.Both very respectable religions and all others.
No ,it is not being not united .I am a Euro Armenian and a Euro -bird on the other side of the ocean.I do make my yearly pilgrimage to RA/Artsakh since near a dozen yrs and that may times.
My only DESIRE IS TO SEE THE ARMENIAN DIASORA ORGANIZED AROUDN A SPER STRUCTURE WITH A SUPREME COUNCIL.To that effect I have had my web page NAMED ARMENIDAD-WORLDWIDE.ORG MEANSARMENITY.COMES FROM SPANIS LIKE COMUNIDAD-ARMENIDAD, THE ENGLISH SPEAKING ARMENIANS HAVE ERRONEOUSLY DUBBED THAT WORD AS ARMENIANISM-OR SOME SUC LIKE.
AS TO UNITY.FRANCE IS THE MOST DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY WITH ALL TREND POOITICAL ARTIES LEFT OR RIGHT ULTRA LEFT ULTRA RIGHT ,BUT WHEN THEIR COUNTRY IS FACED WITH AN OUTER ISSUE-AENA- FOREIGN THEY BECOME ONE .THEY DO NOT UNITE THE CO-OPERATE.MIABANVIL.IT IS MNOT NEESSARY TO CHANGE ONE'S IDEOLOGY..ETC.,
AS TO MY COMMENTS ,I DO NOT ANY MORE COMMENT ON WORLD POLITICS.I WATCH MANY T.V. CHANNELS IN SPANIS,ENGLISH AND ARMENIAN 4 CHANNELS READ A FEW ARMEN PAPERS WRITE TO A FEW IMPORTANT FRIENDS FROM OUR OLD DAQYS OF THE "WORLD ARMENIAN CONGRESS'(NOW A FEW SUCH MUSHROOMING UP...
ANYHOW,WE SALL B AND BY BEGIN TO REALIZE THAT THE power lies ,no not in the 3/4% ERCENT
ARMENIAN POLITICFAL PARTIES MEMBERS-WITH ALL DUE RESWPECT TO THEM BYT OVER A 100,000 Armenians that are not yesteryear's telegraphist but much more advanced IT experts so the Banking 7 Finance experts etc., these people are or form our Vertebral column-ALBEIT NOT YET ORGANIZED, but just commencing...
Once these begin, then there is no stopping they will forge aheaad.One thing I do trust my dar compatrits do understand or SOULD BY NOW UNDERSTAND THAT FARHAT ALSO HINTS AT...IS THAT WE ARE NO LONGER A PEOPLE-LIKE THEY ARE, WE ARE NATION/STATE...WITH THE HOMELAD-HAIREIK AN IMNDEPENDENT ENTITY WICH IS WHAT WE SHOULD CHERIS AND BELIEVE IN .IT WAS ACHIEVED BY A TREMENDOUS EFFORT, BLOOD SED AND WHAT NOT THAT OUR NATION WENT THROUGH..
THENCE INSTEAD OF BICKERING WHAT HILLARY SAID OR LAVROV DID NOT..WE SHOULD GET A MOVE ON PUTTING OUR DIASPORA HOUSE IN ORDER IT IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE.PERIOD.NOT BY CRITICIZING EACH OTHER OR THIS THAT CURENT.BUT GETTING ORGANIZED-THAT WHICH I ADVOCATE MAY BE THE SOLUTION TO THAT.BUT FORGIVE ME FOR FAST TYPING AND MAking so many typographical errors.get into the core of the issue. re-organization of the armen diasora...
thaks ferhat for your kind comments.Tell your people we may forgive your past attrocites-alongsde the turk if you ask forgiveness and SDE WITH US FROM NOW ON...IT IS ALSO OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE.SOME ARMENS DO NOT REALIZE THAT WE NEED 20 MILLION KURDS TO SIDE WITH US.TERRITORY?
WE CAN DECIDE ON THAT ATER ON.PEOPLE LIKE SELF DON'T THINK LIKE SOME THAT YOUR PEOPLE OUGHT TO GIVE UP LAND MOVE TO THE SEA...WE CAN COEM TO A COMPROMISE ON DIVISION OF LAND.WHT WE NOW OUGHT TO CLAIM -CONTRARY TO WHAT SOME THINK -FROM GREAT TURKEY IS..."BLOOD MONEY" MUCH EASER TO ATTAIN, LIKE THE N.Y.LIFE AND AXA INS. AGREED ADN THENCE ACCEPTED THAT OUR PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY WHOM ghosts?
ALSO ANOTHER IMPORTANT PRECEDEMNT IS THE JEWS GEETTING MONE FORM GERMANY A FACT...
TURKEY THSE DAYS BOASTS THEYA RE THE 16TH NATION IN IMPORTANCE FINANCAL WISE, POWER-WISE ETC., LET US AVE THEM COUGH UP MONEY CASH ...
HAMA HAIGAGAI SIRO,
GAYTZAG PALANDJIAN
hama
1. Serge Sargsyan is not a democratically-elected president. Stop pretending that he is!
2. Going public with Armenian-Americans' dirty laundry and divisions is nonconstructive.
3. Neither the AAA nor the ANCA "represent[s] a large cross-section of our community" today.
4. The Republic of Armenia should not be setting, monitoring or controlling the agenda and actions of Armenian-Americans and Armenian-American groups.
5. The "four more slots" should include the Hnchaks and at least 1 Hayastantsi-majority U.S. organization that will address key democracy and human rights issues in Armenia and the Diaspora, because neither the AAA/AGBU/Diocese nor the ANCA/ARS/Prelacy has the principled leadership and dignity to do so (yet)!
6. Advancing Armenian interests and rights has never been and should never be a Ramgavar (AAA/AGBU/Diocese) versus Dashnaktsutyun (ANCA/ARS/Prelacy) battle.
7. Stop putting personal and partisan interests ahead of national ones!
8. And, when and if you meet Hillary Clinton, repeat after me: Justice & Democracy & Development!
I, for one, am a Diasporan Armenian, by definition. I do not have “venom” towards other Diasporans. I will tell you however, that I feel, as a Diasporan Armenian, I am in the “Diaspora” that is of or pertaining to “Armenia”. That means that Armenia, the country, and people, are my priority. Their safety, their rights, their freedoms, and their dignity.
The reason March 1, the present and past reaction by Diasporan organizations to the events of March 1, is constantly relevant, is that it reveals the underlying misplaced priorities, and in some cases, hypocrisy, of certain Diasporan organizations.
What would I like to see from these Diasporan organizations? An apology letter? Maybe. I’ll leave the final decision on that to Dumanian. I would like to see them put the priorities of the Republic of Armenia, and the people of the Republic of Armenia, first. First, ahead of their party politics and church politics, and in some cases, financial gain and personal politics. If that were done, had been done, then much of this would be moot. But it wasn’t. …
I want to see the AYF youth protest for the youth who are beaten whenever they try to stand up for their civil rights, for their “brothers and sisters” in Armenia. I want to see the ARS write a letter when their “sisters” in Armenia are harassed and sometimes beaten for organizing rallies in support of their husbands. I want to see the Knights of Vartan protest because an old man was beaten and kicked by police. I want to see the ARF up in arms and in the streets because liberators of Artsakh are in prison.
And if this upcoming meeting was the first time these fractures were revealed to someone, they obviously have their head in the sand.
Lastly, the fact that anyone who agrees with Dumanian is considered “his henchman” just goes to show just how unable and unwilling some are to see and accept that there is, in fact, a pro-opposition pro-democracy movement of Armenians based in the US.
The AGBU, AAA, KoV and the Diocese have proven on numerous occasions to share one very shrewd talent: the ability to make a mockery of our cause before the largest audience of odars at any given moment.
I am not surprised by their most recent infantile antics Halebtzi but yet this time I'm not amused either.
I signed the petition on change.org. There is a section about genocide. The material under this topic says the reason Turkey still denies the Armenian genocide, in spite of the evidence and its acceptance by the world, is that Turkey is adhering to a racial ideology (uber-mensch) of racial superiority. I might also add, this is the same sickness that Ahmadinejad suffers from, in denying the Holocaust, in spite of the evidence and world acceptance of the fact.
(Also, calling Gaza a genocide is trivializing genocide).
My family was in Turkey in the 1920's - 1930's and studied at Robert College with the missionaries who were eye witnesses to the Armenian genocide. I have books written by them and other people and I will donate them to the Armenian Genocide Museum in Washington, D.C. However, what Turkey and Iran need now are new leaders who are not racist ideologues.
The petition is up to 3,500 signatures today, hoping to achieve 10,000. At least it may educate people about genocide and its prevention.
Saten, you oversimplify the situation, perhaps because you judge by what you see in hay kedrons or churches. I'm formerly from Armenia, and I came to know as a result of my job nature there, that diasporans have made enormous contributions both during the Artsakh war and afterwards. Of course Armenians from Armenia and Artsakh fought the war and it is true that few of diasporans (Monte Melkonian and others) showed up to take part in it, but you just don't know, and I wouldn't disclose it here, as to what significant aid has been offered to Armenia by diasporans in many fields. I also think that the time will come that more diasporans will move to Armenia. Please, PLEASE refrain from artificially widening the gap between the two parts of one nation. This is exactly what our enemies attempt to achieve.
Hmm...so I guess the Protocols are done with? Phew, that was a close one!
What now? Do things go back to normal?
ARF/ANC leaders: it would go a long way if you apologized for not doing more to prevent and/or denounce March 1. If you called for Serzh and Edward's resignation or helped send them into exile, even better. And all this is asked of you, regardless of whether other organizations ever follow suit or apologize for staying silent during LTP's or Kocharian's horrific regimes. Take the high road that would make your fedayi predecessors and hamageers proud, even if it means that the ARF may be banned again in Hayastan. What's the use of working for Hye Tad in the homeland under this regime if you have to turn a blind eye, forsake your principles, and lose your constituent base?
You are amazing - you are very clear - to the point - logical - why can't the others accept you analysis. Keep it up - it is a pleasure to read your words.
To "Robert":
As for turkish grassroot campaigning, I think Victor Hugo said it best, " Wherever the turkish hoof trods, no grass grows" he wrote this before the turks massacred 50,000 bulgarians in 1876, 7,000 Armenians in Istanbul August 26-28 1896, the 200,000 Armenians in 1894-1896, the 20,000 Armenians in Adana in 1909 and the 1,500,000 Armenians murdered from 1915 to 1923 in georgia, armenia, turkey, syria, azerbaijan, iraq and iran. So called turkey will pay for its crimes in full.
The Turks need the border open with Armenia more than Armenia needs it. Armenia has open borders with Iran and Georgia. Iran needs a trading partner like Armenia to sells its goods and services. Iran is running out of uranium as well. Armenia has uranium. For national security reasons of course, the US must recognize the Armenian genocide (even though it has done so time and time again by the United States), Turkey must give back Western Armenia, pay repirations, and pay a percentage of the oil pipeline revenues etc to the diasporan Armenians.
Turkey's refusal to open up the border shows how much it is interested in entering the EU. The message the US has recieved has been loud and clear.
No oral statement will override the text of protocols. The all preconditions that have been pointed out by Armenians are deliberatly and carefully have been approved by the Obaoma Administration and whatever Turkey is arguing has been approved by Washington. The article correctly points out Turky's short term goal. However, the longterm goal of Turkey is to incorporate Armenia within its territory.
The first step is ratifying these protocols which they will deminish the Armenianism so that there will not be any Armenian factor in the region.
Or what's the point of being the "party of Njdeh" if you side with a regime that throws Artsakh Fidayis dying of heart compications in jail for 8 years. Why doesn't the Dashnak media here in the U.S. even REPORT on that? I know they read Radio Free Liberty.
Shucks, imagine what Njdeh would think about what you've done to his party. Lead our people through a genocide only to become Robert Kocharyan's you know what.
Interesting how Patil and others take cheap shots at the ARF-ANCA about the need to apologize for not doing enough after March 1. Are you kidding me? The ARF pulled out of the coaltion and is working toward "regime change."
Has anyone for a minute stopped to consider that the Etchmiadzin-AAA-AGBU connection among those three organizations and vis a vis Sarkisian is exponentially stronger and more patently obvious than anything the ARF ever enjoyed in Armenia. Look at the principles leaders of those three organizations, look at their financial relationship, look how they are all interconnected, and look at how they all cross paths with Sarkisian.
If those three organizations like to trample on the ARF-ANCA, Prelacy, ARS, etc because they think they speak for the majority of the community, they have been even more complicit about March 1 than the ARF.
The Clinton meeting is just for show. Nothing will come of it. It's therefore even more pathetic that the AGBU and AAA want to block the ARS from attending. Who still thinks the AAA works for the community and not for the State Department?
And it's in the United States' interest to have Sarkisian in power - corrupt and all - because he can be controlled. Why would the US want a democratic Armenia?
Two things to say on that Stepan:
1) The AGBU-AAA-Echmiadzin coalition has never acted as a branch of the Kocharyan/Sarksyan regime, spreading its propaganda, justifying the March 1 crackdown, and or spreading lies about the opposition. They are guilty of being silent and singing that infamous March 17 joint press release. Beyond a few Ramgavar folk at the Mirror Spectator, the other camp has been behaving themselves.
2) I have lost all faith in the AAA. They don't even have a popular support. A few rich folk control the organization and I don't see how we can fight against that without explicit accusations related to their business ventures. Although I'm on that too!
3) But I don't think it's fair to say that the other side hasn't gotten any scorn from us. In fact, I encourage you to read my last article. I am very critical of the AAA. I think I called them 'idiotic.'
But on this note: Honestly, the other camp is much more credible in some ways than the ARF. For one, the AAA folk essentially believe that supporting whatever regime is in power is the best way they can help as a Diaspora organization. They have held this philosophy for a very long time. That can actually be argued to be true in many respects. That's what the Ramgavars said in 1990 -- "we supported the Soviets for this long because we knew they wouldn't last," etc.. And some don't even think the Diaspora should get involved. This philosophy can be argued on its merits. The philosophy of the ARF is contradictory and bizarre. And destructive.
Let me sum it up this way: they don't stand IN THE WAY of the pro-democracy movement. In fact, if the opposition were to come into power -- they would probably switch sides immediately (as they have often done). Many in the ARF actively fight the pro-democracy movement and have promised to do so forever.
I think we give them as much attention as they deserve, which isn't much.
Look at the above comment from Levon and Appo Jabarian from USA Armenian Life Magazine (a hardcore ARF guy): He thinks one of the good things that came out of the Protocols was "The emergence of a patriotic opposition that’s loyal to the national security and interests of the Armenian state."
You hear that? That means the opposition we had before wasn't PATRIOTIC, wasn't loyal to the NATIONAL SECURITY of Armenia. Yep, we're just a bunch of Jew-lovin-Levon-worshippin'-cult-like agents of the CIA and Turkish Intelligence Agency. Good thing you guys stopped us, too!
Stepan, you are missing the point, perhaps intentionally. This is not a pissing contest over which organizations were more complicit with various regimes, where those "most guilty" get to be the "only ones guilty." No one who has lived the people's struggle for Armenian justice and democracy ever thought the Etchmiadzin-AAA-AGBU connection was clean. And you are right about the AAA working for the State Dept. By contrast, ARF hamageers long believed, perhaps naively, that the Antelias-ARF-ANC connection fought the good fight honestly, cleanly, and for the people. As I said in my prior post, ..." regardless of whether other organizations ever follow suit or apologize for staying silent during LTP’s or Kocharian’s horrific regimes," the ARF should take the high road and win back the trust of their constituent base. As for your claim that the ARF is working on "regime change," I can't say that Jeckyll & Hyde-Oskanian (whom the ARF has been warming up to and who panders to the West) has proven to be a defender of the Armenian people. Many ARF hamageers would like to know what ARF members around the world think of the directives they are receiving from their higher ups in Armenia with which they, the members, don't agree, but must adhere to. More transparency from the ARF and ANC, please.
Great story.
We all know how hard is Turkey trying to enter the European Union, we also know that member countries cannot I stress cannot have any closed borders. So why then is Armenia rushing to have these borders opened knowing well that Turkey has to open it before it makes its greatest push for entry?
Sassounian Soulful article and Walter Scott poem (1771-1832)*
Stimulated me to write, Stanzas from our never-ending pain.
Walter Scott’s Poem* ‘Foldden Battle’
and Armenian Genocide
If Walter Scott did not forget the Foldden Battle (1513)
And he wrote his major work ‘Marmion’(1808)—
Which past more than three-hundred years on that canning event.
In Scotland: in his grand-grand-grand father’s land.
Where he was unbirthed yet.
It seems he heard battle stories in his mother’s womb!
How can Armenians’ forget their genocide (1915-1923)?
Where the clever genes of Armenians savagely smashed.
Now what left, are sample of their populace genes.
In spite of all slaughtered brains**,
They continue giving to the world
Endless inventions and arts.
“How an ancient race can forget their crushed skulls
still in Anatolian land weeplessly yells.”
How humanity can accept such unfair tragedies,
Where no one can sense smashed human dendrites.
Even Arab Bedouins’ offspring
Know all the stories and some remember
Their beautiful dedicated Armenian grandmothers faces
With their mental and physical scars of Turkish scimitars.
While so called Christian civilized MP’s
and congressional representatives
on innocent Armenians’ crushed skulls politically dance,
enjoying their drink and dine.
Attending ceremonies, shaping their wrinkled faces with
expensive colorful surgical make-ups,
I can see, all will vanish if they remain ignoring every human right.
Sylva-MD-Poetry
February 11, 2010
______________________________________________
*Walter Scott’s Stanza, ‘Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive’
Now I can understand why Scottish Parliament recognized Armenian genocide and English Parliament not yet!!!
** It is evident that 75% of Armenian in their Anatolia (Armenian land) vanished.
However, their ruined churches are still there without Church bells.
I want to see the ARF be a vigorous, nationalistic party that does not stand for the anti-nationalist, inept, and corrupt policies of Armenia's leaders and oligarchs. I want to see the ARF push its traditional platform 100% and educate the people of Armenia, many of whom do not have access to the information they need. What does the ARF to bring information to the common man and woman, both in Yerevan and the countryside. The ARF was the premier political party. Why has it not lived up to its reputation? Let the lion out of its cage.
The ARF blessed Serge Sargsyan's nonelection and signed off on the bogus parliamentary report into the slaughter of March 1-2, 2008 last year!
Several senior ARF Bureau members have extensive ties to the Sargsyan regime. For example, Vahan Hovhannisyan's daughter is married to Serge Sargsyan's nephew. Hovhannisyan owns everything from restaurant chains to large plots of land in Yerevan.
And, ARF's Hrant Markarian just two days ago said that the ARF would NOT organize street protests if the Armenian National Assembly ratifies the dreaded protocols even WITHOUT the legally-binding reservations of Armenia's Constitutional Court.
That is how much the ARF "cares" for Hye Tad!
To Tom: Unforunately, highest ARF structures are so infiltrated with influence agents from all sides (see: The First Directorate: My 32 Years in Intelligence and Espionage Against the West by former Soviet KGB general Oleg Kalugin) that ARF cannot be ‘a vigorous, nationalistic party that does not stand for the anti-nationalist, inept, and corrupt policies of Armenia’s leaders and oligarchs.’ Kalugin reveals that their agents have become ARF’s most influential leaders. If it’s true, what struggle against Russian agents Serjik and his foreign minister Edikcan we expect from this party? After all, don’t you see how closely ARF works with any government in Armenia knowing too well that all the governments are hated by the people? Where is ARF’s traditional platform? In the case of defeatist protocols, too, ARF just showing off on the surface that the party is in opposition to the government policies. In reality, they work in tandem. For me, there is only ONE party: my people.
Failure of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to include The Armenian National Committee of America in its talks is a blow to the Armenian People. This goes to show the pressure the Turks are putting on the President & State Dept. All Armenian Organizations as well as our churches must put pressure on Hillary and the State Dept.
The racist and hateful comments above point at the root cause of all the current and historic problems Armenians have.
Since the ANCA and the ARS can only agree to disagree, let Secretary Clinton referee a boxing match between the adversaries. All proceeds from the match will go to a fund to airlift staples into Armenia.
In the film "The Russia House" with S.Connery & M.Pfeiffer, the armenian melodies are heard maybe 20 minutes. I recognized "O Siroun - siroun" and other famous melodies. Without references in the final cast.
This behaviour often appears in reports/middle length film about Greece or oriental countries (in french broacastings for instance).
Hye, I have always been so proud of the ARS, and more today, seeking to dispel the convoluted thinking of such Armenian organizations as the AGBU, the Armenian Assembly, the Diocese of the Armenian Church and more, who seemed to revel in their positions to be able to take a stance to 'eliminate' this outstanding Armenian volunteer based groups of Armenian women - now celebrating 100 years of service to Armenians the world over - denial of their voice, as women!
ARS women, as all their predecessors, over these years have never been questioned or deterred as they have been today! Worse, by fellow Amenians!
ARS organization is certainly worthy of recognition - recognized for their efforts in all facets - and world-wide women have found their voice and do not deserve to be 'eliminated' - by anyone!
That the ARS shall have been so pointedly 'eliminated' from such a meeting of vital interest to all Armenians for Haiastan - makes me ask the question:
Whose side are these entities with - Armenians or Turks who excel in 'eliminations'...
Obviously, such antiquated division, today, is not only foolish but an absolute insult not only to the ARS but to all Armenian efforts for Haiastan. Sadly.
Ahmot, tzee, ahmot.
Manooshag
With these protocols the Turks achieved their ultimate goal: Let the Armenians annihilate each other. Divide and conquer the Armenians. This is a perfect example of "rich ignorant" people trying to speak on behalf of the Armenian Americans and excluding the rest. How embarrassing that this disagreement is taking place in front of the Turks and the State Department where the whole world is aware of it, instead of at least being discrete about it.
Disgusting.
Mr. Papazian,
I don't know what you're talking about but the people of Armenia are quite united today. More so than they've been since 1988.
Hy duman, you are so right - you don't know what anyone is talking about - of course, 1988 when the
communists freed the republic of Armenia, such as was left to us from Sardarabad, the fledgling nation of Haiastan has been plagued with the still communist minded self-centered, self seeking
leaderships starting with DerBedrossian, and all into today, Serge and his cohorts - worldwide -
filling their own pockets.
Here as I have watched the governments (supposedly democratically elected -but NOT) I have hoped that the fledgling Haiastan would find amongst themselves the caliber of patriots we have had in our great history. My favorite, Aram Manoogian!
So, watching/hoping we trusted this new nation, inexperienced, to wake up to find that there is another way - as it was their time to learn of democracy - but denied from DerBedrossian to date.
Today in their new-found voices - men and women together - in the cities and in the villages. Today the true citizens of Haiastan know that they shall speak up against tyranny - by anyone! Armenians are worthy of the finest and the honest dedicated of our Haiastansis to lead our young nation.
Whether from Armenia, whether from the world-wide Diaspora - menk tzer hed nenk - meesht!
(Most of us - except the pocket fillers who take from Haiastan - AMOT)!
Getzeh mehr Haiastan! Manooshag
Why doesn't the State Department have a meeting with Turkish representatives to discuss the protocols? Could it be that the Turks speak with one voice and a meeting isn't necessary?
Hum... twice? Manooshag
Hye Darwin, you are so right! The US State Department deserves to sit down with the Turks and
'talk' with the Turks. I'd like to be the fly on the wall - listening - on this one! Manooshag
1) The first administration of LTP was democratically elected (between 1991-1996).
2) This idea that the administrations of have been "communist minded" has some credibility to it -- but don't suggest that the Diaspora leadership is somehow more enlightened. The Armenians remain a parochial people across the world.
3) I'm pretty sure this "communist minded" administration presided over the great heroic war of Artsakh's liberation. They might be good for something ;).
4) The ARF initially sided with the ACTUAL communists in 1988 and 1989. You should look into it.
5) I don't remember Manooshag throwing the fits he's throwing now when Robert Kocharyan was in power, everything seemed to be fine before the protocols.
6) When I say the Armenians in Armenia are united, they majority are united in their support for the HAK (Armenian National Congress) and other opposition parties (no, the ARF is not an opposition party). So you see...they are united against you.
7) The other stuff you said had really poor syntax and I couldn't understand it.
8) I seldom respond to your ignorant and often inept statements, but I took this opportunity to do so because, as ignorant as you are, you sadly represent the actual thinking of your leadership.
And also, if you are so concerned about Armenia, Armenians, and our "cause." You should devote some energy to trying to free Sasun Mikaelyan, a brave Fidayi of Artsakh who is in jail on trumped of charges. He is 52 and dieing of heart complications, yet they still wont release him. He lead the "Sasun" brigade -- one of the first detachments to Artaskh from Armenia (in 1988). That is a much more important thing than all of this nonsense that you're talking about now.
Cool?
"I seldom respond to your ignorant and often inept statements, but I took this opportunity to do so because, as ignorant as you are, you sadly represent the actual thinking of your leadership."
Henry please play nice. No name calling. Keep this discussion clean.
And why must all of your comments revert to LTP and/or March 1? Isn't this article about the Clinton meeting and the exclusion of the ARS by the AGBU and the AAA? Nothing can change what happened on March 1. Yes, there were failings by everyone involved, directly or indirectly. Shouldn't we be focused on the Protocols and other more pressing issues at hand?
Better to create a source to protect Whole Armenians around
the world, from the this type of VIRUS to cleared-up the road
of struggle for Armenian Cause!!!!
Shame on the AGBU for sending a letter to the State Dept. in opposition for the Armenian Relief Society attending the Meeting to discuss the Protocols and shame on the Armenian Assembly whom are backing the AGBU on this important issue. Is AGBU and the Armenian Assembly for the Protocol signing? If so do they relize the Armenian will suffer if the Protocols are signed. Armenians must wake up to reality. The Turks have outfoxed every nation in the world. Until the Turks recognize the Armenian Genocide and make land returns & reparations to the Armenian People, we as Armenians cannot open borders with our enemy. They have the worst Human Rights Violations, Hrant Dink murderers have not been brought to justice, and over 40,000 Kurds have been massacred these past 10-15 years and worlds nations close their eyes. Wake up Armenians.
Hye, 'duman', oh great one who knows all - vents all - decides all - pages and pages full.
None others shall have opinions - only the great 'duman' to express his convoluted ideas...
Only a 'duman' has been with all the Armenian organizations (at least in the USA) and has
'milked' them - enough to be able to say 'duman' has been there - 'duman' has done that...
I'd like to know if those whom you 've 'visited' with shall all give you a letter of recommendation?
Or - came to know and to see your true colors - and disliked the product.
Manooshag
THIS IS YEAR 2010.MUCH WATERS HAVE FLOWED SINCE LAST DECEMBER..
LET US WAKE UP TO REALITIES DEAR FELLOW FORUM CONTRIBUTORS.
YESTERDAY AND DAY BEFORE WERE HISTORICALLY IMPORTANT ONES FOR ARMENIA/ARMENIANS.ANARMENIAN PRESIDENT(KING)in the court of ST.JAMES'S,ELIAS BRITISH EMPIRES, THE GREAT BRITAIN AND NOW U.K..EVEN SO STILL ENGLISH/BRITISH..
THE DOWN-TRODDEN ARMENIANS THAT TINY REPUBLIC IN THE CAUCASES IN LONDON-UNLIKE ANTRANIK OR BOGHOS NOUBAR OR AVETIS AHARONIAN..REPRESENTING A COUNTRY THAT HAS ATTAINED STATEHOOD AND WITH A SALL BUT WELL TRAIEND ARMY..SHOWING ITSELF AS THE RIGHTFULL HEIR OF ARMENITY-ARMENIDAD ONCE MORE ..AFTER 600 YRS OR S OF A SUBDUED IMPOVERISHED NATION-PUEBLO..
YES WE HAVE SRVIVED AND BEEN ABLE TO CARVE OUT ONE AT LEAST ONE PROVICNE ARMENIAN FOR MILLENIA OF THE "squatter" ING TRIBES OF THE MOGUL TATAR SELJUK TURKS,LIBERATING ARTSAKH..
NOW THE POWERS THAT ARE...LOOKING US OVER WTH SOME RESPECT..REMEMBER ONLY OCTOBER 12 IN ZURICH CARLES AZNAVOUR SITTING UPFRON IN A DGNIFIED POSITION AS AMBASSADOR TO THAT COUNTRY-WHILE AHARONIAN AND NOUBAR PASHA WERE NOT EVEN ADMITTED INTO THE 1921 LAUSANNE TREATY CONJURING UP GANG OF ...I SARE THE WORDS TO THOSE MORALLY LOW PEOPLE TO SAY THE LEAST...NOW THE TIME HAS COME TO COUGH UP..
IT WLL NOT BE LONG WHEN ARMENIA'S CASE WILL BE RESOLVED AT U.N OR THE INT'L COURT OF JUSTICE AT THE HAUGE PUNISHING THE CULPRIT AND MAKING THEM PAY FOR BLOOD MONEY..
LONG LIVE ARMENIA GETZZE A HAYASWTAN/ARTSAKH/JAVAKHK AND.....
HAMA HAIGAGANI SRO,
GAYTZAG PALANDJIAN
Berj jan,
I focus on March 1 precisely because you don't see how all of this -- Protocols, disarray in the Armenian American community, gross injustices in Armenia, etc -- all have their roots in March 1. A day doesn't go by in Armenia where March 1 isn't mentioned in the media. People who don't want to talk about March 1 (like our community at large) have something to hide. Until people realize that fundamental truth, all of this bickering between the ARS, AGBU, AAA, or what have you, is nonsense.
(But the technical answer to your question is: I don't, manooshag just happened to have mentioned it here). And also, it would be appreciated if people offering us advice about "playing nice" weren't bias in who they offer that advice to. I responded in the same manner he responded to me.
Of those three - Protocols, disarray in the Armenian American community, and gross injustices in Armenia - only one has anything to do with March 1. The Protocols have been in progress for several years and disarray in the Armenian American community has been around for decades. There's nothing new about that.
Dear Armenian Weekly,
You guys do a great job handling comments and I know it can be really overwhelming to read through all of them thoroughly. But manooshag's recent comment was essentially a personal attack on me. I know most of his posts have some sort insult hurled at me, but the latest one was a personal attack in its entirety. I don't see why it was approved.
I disagree, the Protocols were forced on Sarksyan primarily because he is an illegitimate leader. Foreign powers use March 1 as a bargaining chip -- if Serge doesn't do what they want him to do, they'll bring up March 1 and hold him responsible for it. The most eager president to start relations with Turkey (and you know who he is) was offered the Protocols and rejected them -- during an arguably more difficult time for Armenia nonetheless. That such an embarrassing treaty was forced on Armenia after such an obviously fraudulent election is no coincidence. The Armenian American community hasn't been in disarray for decades -- if you mean we have had different organizations and different political views on issues as being in "disarray" then I don't know what to tell you. Disarray is this embarrassing fight we're having in front of the State Department (see the comments on the editorial for more on this).
But if that doesn't do it justice -- considering how important it is to Armenia even with these issues aside, and how it is COMPLETELY ignored in the Armenian American media -- why waste your time telling me to not talk about it? Especially when you could be telling the editors of Asbarez to print stories about Sasun Mikaelyan when they grab stories from Radio Free Liberty every day (and today being no exception). We just learned that Robert Kocharian had planned a military crackdown on the peaceful protesters on Feb 23 and essentially cut off the rest of the military from the operations. Why doesn't that make it to our headlines? Don't you think the fact that Robert Kocharian planned a Coup D'Etat is important enough?
It is sad that the Armenians cannot get together and form a strong representation of the whole Armenian American Community. This has been the case throughout our whole history. We need to learn from our history, and learn how to face the enemy together as a whole nation. If we cannot agree how to represent ourselves for a simple meeting with secretary of state; how are we going to agree to represent our entire nation when the time comes for reparations and restitutions?
No wonder Turks have and will always try to divide the Armenian nation to derail that process.
Its about time 100 years later to unite as one diaspora, and like the jews, present a strong and effective Armenian Lobby.
Garo
To manooshag:
Keep up the good fight against the mean spirited, for if he gets power- power corrupts and it corrupts absolutely. He speaks about democracy but heaven help the Armenian nation if he is even elected to being a dog catcher. I shutter to think what his brand of "democracy" would yield. Hopefully, one day aksam meets duman and we will breathe free as all true Armenians should in a barabarian free Greater Armenia.
To Stephen:
Not only are the AGBU and AAA pro protocols but they even sought help from the barbarians against the anti protocol masses. Armenians may have disagreements, we may argue, but to actually seek help from the monsters against fellow Armenians is so debased that the members of those organizations should be shunned for all eternity.
Ayse,
You are completely wrong on several counts. Turks have been eradicating Christians from Anatolia from day one as saw fit. Forced conversions for entire valleys in the 16th, 17th 18th and 19th centuries. Moving Christian families around the empire to dilute non moslem enclaves, kidnapping Christian women every now and again which over time was very effective to changing the demographics and let us not forget the devshirme system of collecting Christian children. Then there are the massacres of Christians. From 1849 to 1923 5 million Christians, Yezedis and Alevis were murdered or forced to convert to Sunni islam at the point of a sword. The ottoman empire was an evil institution and really not much has changed with the mentality of "modern turks".
I would like to make one point perfectly clear to all your readers. There are only two prerequisites to become a member of the Knights of Vartan: you need to be partly, or wholly of Armenian descent, and you need to be Christian. If you are not involved in community service, we will encourage you to become involved. We have members who are Protestant, Catholic, and Apostolic (Diocesan and Prelacy affiliated). We sit side by side, and have only one purpose. What good we can do for Armenia and the Armenian people.
I am not a member of the ANCA. However, the organization has a right to present a differing view. Unfortunately the ANCA usually disagrees with every position that the Armenian Assembly takes. From someone that watches these disagreements from the sidelines, I have to scratch my head. How can two Armenian organizations be so diametrically opposed? I want to see Armenia move forward and this haggling has produced divisions in the church, politics and the economic future of Armenia. It's beyond absurd. Thankfully I don't belong to either group as well as most of my friends.
Stop airing your dirty laundry.
The difference between the Armenian Assembly of America (AAA) and the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) is that the latter promotes Armenian interests in the United States; while the former promotes US State Department interests to Armenians. ANCA's mission is Armenian interests first! AAA's mission is the US State Department interests first! This is the crucial difference. The Assembly (although run by Armenians) does not serve Armenian interests.
I AGREE WITH GARO AND LEO MANUELIAN, WE HAVE TO UNITE AS ONE NATION AND HAVE ONLY ONE AND ONE PURPOSE THAT IS THE RECOGNITION OF THE GENEOCIDE, AND HOW WE CAN HELP OUR MOTHERLAND TO BECOME A DEMOCRATIC NATION
Nzovyalner , vor zorov hayeren eq khosum yev teghn enkats zhamanak kokordilosi artsunq eq tapum Hayerniqi hamar !
Tasnyak tariner aradj , Baregortsakan Miyutyune' uner ir arzhanapatvutyune' yev cher vacharvats mek kam miyus entaniqi gumarnerin , bayts apsos verjin 30 tarinerin dartsav Private Country Club yev heranalov ir vardapetutyunits " baregordzutyun" dartsav mi anhati kmahachuyqi ararka.
Irakani mej , ARS yev ANCA petq er hraparakv cheghyal , voch vaverakan yev irakanutyan che hameknogh haytararen Clintoni yev ir storadass andzants khorhrdaktsutyunnere' nman tkhrahrchak akumbneri tnorinotyan het, yev inchpess vor mishd henvelov massayi vra irents karevorutyune vorpes zhoghovrdakan armat unetsogh kazmakerputyunner partadren Washingtonin.
As a member of the Knights of Vartan (old men's organization) I can tell you the organization has no more than 400 followers (including the daughters of Vartan) and has no experience in the politics. Neither do the the primates of the Eastern and Western Dioceses. Their job as clergymen is to unite the faithful regardless of their political affiliation. They should concentrate on bringing the Armenian people to Christ. The bylaws of the Dioceses are very clear on the duties of the diocesan councils and the dicosan bishops.
Let the people who have experience in politics deal with these issues.
Everybody's belief is that they are working for the good of the Armenian people “as they see fit”.
It is sad that they can not sit round a table with others and share their points of view,when will we learn and stop preaching to others
Dear Mr. Dumanian, you must have not understood that my comments were regarding the unity Armenians in America.
As a member of the Knights of Vartan (old men's organization) I can tell you the organization has no more than 400 followers (including the daughters of Vartan) and has no experience in politics. Neither do the the primates (with all due respect) of the Eastern and Western Dioceses. Their job as clergymen is to unite the faithful regardless of their political affiliation. They should concentrate on bringing the Armenian people to Christ.
The bye-laws of the dioceses are clear on job descriptions of the Diocesan Councils and the Diocesan bishops.
Let the people who have experience in politics deal with these issues.
As I clicked on Armenianweekly's weekly post today,I was surprised that except above post by Nacht und Nebel, Sylva's beautifull poetry-that tells it all- plus Ayse's and mine,are all very old psts going back to Arpil 2009 and August 2009.
Strange why Armeian Weekly has deemed right to re-post them,including of course the main one by Khatchadourian Re President Obama's UNPRECEDENTED first visit abroad after his election,that of visit to Republic of Turkey.
Perhaps it has to do with very recent developments in this respect. Turkey's adamant stance as to the decision by the Constitutional court of r.of Armenia,which anyhow does imply and convey its conformity with the protocols to be sent to Parliament for ratification,albeit with some references to sme reservations.
Not to be outdone,r.of Turkey -as above mentioned- has shown its reservations ,once more hinting through its foreign Ministre tying up Nagornyi Karabagh conflict resolution,as well as Armenian Genocde Acknowedgment not to be referred to ...
Latter,as Sylva- above -mentions so eloquently and justly is a National Armenian Premise,if you will ,that CANNOT BE ERASED FROM THE MINDS OF THE HEIRS OF THOSE THAT SURVIVED IT.
Hence,weekly's re-insertion of above posts, one would think is in support and as a reminder to president Obama of what the Armenians demand as JUSTICE. Latter cannot be denied,rather if denied, it will not have a long duration. Unjust ,untrue Denials will eventually come to surface and be reckoned with.
To surmise:- Collective memory is very hard to eradicate, rather impossible.Same as documented,registered facts in Governmental institutions,films micro films etc.Turkey must awaken to realites and come to termsas above mentioned-the case of the KURDS for 70 and odd years being dubbed as "Mountain turks",now called by their real name.
The Powers that are(not , to be) today putting pressure especially on Armenia/Armenians should indeed review their so far unrelenting stance,siding wth r.of Turkey and Azerbaijan-(their 2nd state,as they call it, or being unnecessarily SILENT when it comes to Genocide Recognition and call THINGS BY THEIR TRUE NAME AND present culprit as such. For if they continue their said outwardly impartial position, they become party to r.of Turkey's Denialist Game played so far....
G.P.
You must read the AAA and AGBU press release to understand why the ANCA felt compelled to issue its own statement. Nobody wants intra-Armenian fighting - but it was time for the ANCA to set the record straight. The AAA has been on the wrong side of every major issue over the past 10 years - they were behind TARC, they supported the waiver of Section 907, they supported a genocide denier (Hoagland) to serve as US Ambassador to Armenia, and they now support the Protocols. The ANCA took tough stands on all of these issues and demonstrated that the Armenian American community will not be bullied by the US State Department. I'm amazed that the AAA still has support, however minimal it may be. They are agents of the US State Department. Just go back to Van Krikorian, David Phillips, and the failed Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission and then fast forward through Dick Hoagland and to the present day pro-Protocols posture. I am a past support of the AAA but I simply cannot fathom their ineptitude. While I am not an ARF member, I strongly support the ANCA's mission and work. It's time our community in the US wakes up and realizes who is doing the heavy lifting in Washington, DC.
The Diocese and Knights of Vartan are valued institutions who realized that they shouldn't be supporting that ridiculous and inflammatory press release issued by the AAA and AGBU. I applaud the leadership of the Diocese and KoV for not falling into the AGBU and AAA's trap of supporting the exclusion of the Prelacy, Catholics, Protestants, ARS, and others.
What's disheartening is that I think the majority of the AAA supporters still support the AAA simply because they could never bring themselves around to supporting the ARF backed ANCA. Decades-old anti-ARF stigma has clouded the judgment of many reasonable Armenian Americans and has thus precluded them from supporting the ANCA. People need to leave those old hatreds in the past and realize that the ANCA is the only Armenian American advocacy organization fighting for the issues that are near and dear to the hearts of our community.
What’s disheartening is that I think the majority of the AAA supporters still support the AAA simply because they could never bring themselves around to supporting the ARF backed ANCA. Decades-old anti-ARF stigma has clouded the judgment of many reasonable Armenian Americans and has thus precluded them from supporting the ANCA. People need to leave those old hatreds in the past and realize that the ANCA is the only Armenian American advocacy organization fighting for the issues that are near and dear to the hearts of our community.
Mr. Papazian, my apologies
Berj, I wrote an article on precisely what you're talking about awhile ago.
Vahe jan, indz tvuma Hayeren grele Angleren tarerov aveli dzhvara yev ayt pacharov, animast. Yev kani vor Weeklyi kartatsoghneri metsamastutsyune Hayaren chen haskanum, aveli chishjt klini Angleren grenk. Che?
Why are all of you soooo terrified? Your one chance at a positive forward movement (via the protocols, historical commission, and withdrwal of all troops from NK), would be a boon to Armenia's economy and global social structural status. For those of you who still haven't figured it out yet, this is a test case! Sarkissian has the vision. Too bad the ARF, ANCA and the rest of the diaspora are too blind to see anything with positive implications because of their intense hate indoctrination and pure selfishness. Turkey doesn't need Armenia, but Armenia will soon learn that it despeartely will need Turkey's help in the very near future. All you are doing with your blinders and extreme selfish behavior is to slit your own economic "throats"! At least we can say that we tried, but the hate-driven diaspora placed too much pressure on a visionary and helped to scuttle any real chance for hope for Armenia's future. Pretty sad!
Wow, what a bunch of paranoid children!!
Robert - You may be the only Armenian American I've heard who fully supports the Protocols. I actually laughed out loud when I read that Sarkisian is a "visionary." I would prefer the term "sellout."
That young fish sounds very familiar...
I congratulate the author for the article and the editor for publishing it.
Hajigul Nersessian you are so close to the story of basturma,your family hade first clase experiance making basturma,I myself made basturma many times it a grate filling to eat your owen preparation
anyone makes it they will agry with me!.
one must salt the meat to qure it, than wash the salt off than find a way to press the exses blode & wother before hanges to dry. yes it presed meat to keep fore winter time, thay did not have waxed paper aluminum foile or frezer to keep the meat. abouth chaman the garlick,fanugreek they have preservative quality, fanugreek is used in modern western cooking.
Hye, robert the turk... To the contrary, it is the Turk who is desparate - using PLOY after PLOY after Ploy - endlessly... the latest being the so-called Protocols - established to furnish the Turk with more access to the lands of the fledgling nation of Armenia.
Still, a Turkey is in pursuit of Armenians - still determined to crush, to eliminate the Armenians.
This Ottoman mentality still persists in the Turk leaderships - their need to continue the Turkish Genocide against the Armenians. The mentality of hordes of the Asian mountains - still exists.
Actually it Turkey who, in desparation, makes alliances/breaks alliances; declares PLOYS for delays, disractions, and distortions of the truths - over and over and over, endlessly.
Today, now, a Genocide of the Kurds is being pursued by Turks - they label the Kurd as 'terrorists' to be able to pursue preGenocide acts - leading to that at which the Turks excel... Genocides.l
Genocides - stealing lands and cultures of advanced societies - then claim these as Turkish...
So, robert, until your nation removes the current leaderships, as were the Nazis of Germany, the
honest and 'normal' elements of your society shall then, and only then, make a difference for you
and your future generations. Sadly, you have been educated ala Turkish lies - you know not truths.
Manooshag
I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the disturbing relationship between a few entities.
Relationship #1: Turkey and the SD
Relationship #2: The SD and the AAA
Turkey ---->SD---->AAA
Many will agree, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Turkey's wish is the SD's command especially on Armenian issues. In the same token, it's not much of a stretch to also contend that the SD's wish is the AAA's command. In other words, there's not much difference between all three on Armenian issues.
To the chagrin of many unwary AAA members, an ugly truth is emerging: Turkey's campaign of misinformation is being disseminated through the AAA with the blessing of the SD.
Why do you assume he's an Armenian American?
Oh, the irony Mr. Ohanian.
what are the financial implications for such a cruise, from:
1-the business aspect: the money spent, profit by company, expenses of each individual,
2-the time expense of each individual going to such a cruise, from USA vs Europe
3-could the same amount of work / money / entertainment be created in Armenia, but of course in a different setting, with profits kept in Armenia?
All these foreign countries are beautiful, but their profit is a loss for our Armenia.
Also, the more we make these cruises attractive, the more likelihood of loosing a potential tourist to Armenia.
We should spend the same effort, time-money-politicians-infra structure to make it easier in Armenia.
Aran
Hye, the U.S. State Department pulls blunders - and still continues to function as an 'active' organ of the U.S. government.... Over and over, we have learned (later/after fact) that these convoluted policies have been less than what the leading democracy of the world shall have purused.
Today, seeking to maintain the State Department's stance in support of the Turkish leaderships,the State Department blundered, to put it mildly... in pursuit of the Protocols favoring a Turkey.
Hilary and cohorts, and some Armenians, issued an invitation to meet (Feb. 4th) to several Armenian entities, religious, political and more to attend. Mind, these were all the groups which have always been in support of the the State Departments blunders - actually anti Armenia... Yet, on the other side of the scales of justice, the lone oppostion 'invited' is the world renown Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA). Talk about democracy in action - at the highest levels of the government of the USA! The scales of justice tilted to ridiculous depths! Or, in this case - heights??
The State Department and those (of the other side of the page) Armenian Assembly (AAA) Diocese of the Armenian Church, the Knights of Vartan, the Armenian General Benevolent Union (AGBU) and others, shall have joined with Hilary et al to in making the selections as to whom shall/shall not be included. And then they make the Big Blunder! (Not the only one, to be sure).
These Armenians (except ANCA) revel in the fact that they are now in the so-called drivers' seat - and will therefore, allow some of those who align with the ANCA to be 'allowed' to attend. Whoopee!
But the blunder: together with the State Department's blessings these 'bright/enlightened/intelligent?/qualified pro State Department Armenians (for want of a better title) insist - yes INSIST - the Armenian Relief Societ (ARS) shall be excluded!
ARS, recently celebrated their 100 years of existence. One hundred years of generations of Armenian women - volunteers - whose chapters join together to give aid and assistance to Armenians - the world over. These dedicated Armenian women - to be denied to give voice at Hilary's gathering... Eliminating their voices - eliminated as the Turks did to the Armenian nation!
Further, the insistence by the AAA, AGBU et al, against these women was a slap in the face to all Armenians... AAA, AGBU et al appear to have reveled in their stance with the State Department! Thinking they were in charge - sillies - Hilary runs the show - not AAA, AGBU et al.
Take note: Women, the world over have found their voices - and to 'eliminate' the ARS, here in the USA - is an abomination, to say the least. As they say in Armenian, AMOT, and in plain English I say,
STUPID. AAA and AGBU are of the 'monied' but, obviously, Armenianess is lacking, too, politics is certainly not their 'cup of tea' either. Manooshag
Manooshag
P.S. Knights of Vartan and the Diocese seem to have 'awakened' and have stepped back from their original participation of this obvious 'blunder'...
This is a Great lawyers team, we should organize others team to study others US matters.
When are these folks going to devise and implement a plan for land reparations and monetary restitution for our long lost family assets that were stolen from our forefathers by the descendants of unrepentant Turkey? When are these lawyers going to put the indisputable facts of the Armenian Genocide behind them and start talking about what really matters: our rights to our land and assets. Wheres' the plan? What's the timeline? Who's leading the effort? For how much longer will our community remain sound asleep re-acknowledging the Armenian Genocide?
If someone involved in this process could articulate exactly how the protocols would benefit Armenia, and the guarantees that would come with them, perhaps Armenians would be more open to the concept. However, without anything specific excepting the heavy slant that benefits Turkey and Azerbaijan explicitly, and at Armenia's expense, the whole process is suspect. Of course, we know who the true heavy hitter is behind all this, and it's not even Turkey....it's the US. Let's face it, American Armenians are paying tax dollars to a govt that is actively working against their interests, despite all the propaganda that says otherwise....the hidden agenda is quite clear: neutralize Armenia, militarize Azerbaijan and secure an endless supply of oil for US allies, Turkey and Israel. Without any concrete benefits accruing to them, financial or political, Armenians have every right to be highly suspicious of such a manipulative exercise. They've been screwed by the 'great' powers many times before....so it would be very unusual for any of them to come to Armenia's aid this time around.
Congratulations to the Armenian Review staff on the latest issue of the Review. I have missed reading the Review over these past years and hope that future issues will continue. I have the complete Armenian Reviews from 1948 to date. Thanks to the Hairenik Staff for getting it reissued.
Indisputable facts? Then how come they are being disputed so successfully? How come there is no shred of evidence for this indisputable fact? How come then this myth requires so much legal and constitutional protection?
Carl--you are correct in calling for more information in the reporting of this article. In the meantime, if you are still interested in the music not described go to Serj Tankian's web site. Maybe the folks at Armenian Weekly can insert a link to facilitate anyone else who wishes to find out more about this young man's music.
Seevart--I watched my grandmother walk through a life of depression and paranoia due to her village being burned, her relatives killed, and enduring a life as a servant-girl to Kurds before escaping to America. It still makes me sad even though she is no longer alive. I assume that you live here in th U.S. and own property. So I ask you this: would you be willing to give back your property to and acknowledge the genocide brought against the Native Peoples (Indians) here in America ? If you would, then you can complain about what the Turks should or shouldn't do to rectify past transgressions against Armenians. Do you think it is pleasent for Indians to be living on some of the worst land in the U.S.A. ? Do you think it is right that the Mount Rushmore Monument was made on one of their sacred grounds ? OPEN YOUR MIND AND LOOK AROUND and see what YOU are a part of too.
Uh Mark,
You seem to only see one aspect of things (albiet incorrect). What you really should be asking are the realistic questions: "When are these folks going to devise and implement a plan for Armenians to come clean in front of the UN, with their addmitance that they perpetrated a century-old con job upon the Christian nations of the world?". This should then be followed up by "When are these lawyers and dashnak hard-liners going to put the bogus claims of an alleged Armenian genocide behind them and start talking about what really matters: The establishment and advancement of relations between Armenian and Turkey and Azerbaijan, with the withdrawl of all Armenian troops from NK, leading to further positive recognition by all nations, as well as all Moslem nations, with the resultant economic agreements to follow (which will surely improve Armenia's desperate economic situation)?". "Where's the plan?". What's the timeline?". "Who's leading the effort?". "For how much longer will our community remain sound asleep in acknowledging that what we did as Armenians was wrong, and that we must now drop this selfishness and child-like whinning and share the forward-looking vision of President Sarkissian and do what is right and best for Armenia?"! Do you get it now?!!
Gosh, just listen to you two whine!! You are truly quite entertaining! Tell me, do you do catering as well?
You see, the Armenian Assembly of America (AAA) promotes US interests to Armenians. The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) promotes Armenian interests to the US.
Those who want to promote Armenian interests should by now adjust their expectations of the AAA. It is designed to serve Armenian interests only if they coincide with that of the US. Don't expect AAA to support Armenian issues if they don't first serve US interests.
ANCA can and should go back to true grassroots support and properly account for its supporters and annual memberships (ANC chapters, town hall meetings, mailings, legislative activity, keeping communities informed, etc.). For now, AAA asserts that it is the voice of the American-Armenian community. Can ANCA prove that it speaks for more Armenian-Americans members than AAA?
Karekin poses a good question "how the protocols would benefit Armenia".
The protocols as negotiated do not benefit Armenia. Just like its predecessor TARC several years ago, the Protocols are driven by the US State Department.
The goals of the US State Department (as well as the UK via British Petroleum BP) is to access and control the world's largest and most strategic gas & oil reserves in Central Asia's Caspian Sea basin (Turkmenistan & Kazakhstan), as well as Azerbaijan's energy reserves. Turkmenistan reportedly has enough gas supplies to supply the entire world for 300 years; and Kazakhstan has more oil reserves than Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq combined.
Armenia is the only viable energy route to penetrate the Caucasus and gain access route (putting several gas & oil pipelines from the Caspian basin - Azerbaijan - Armenia - Turkey and on to Europe.
Since August 8, 2008, the Georgia route has been deemed unreliable and unstable by the West. On-going Russian destabilization efforts in Georgia threatens the security of oil & gas flow. Azerbaijan has no outlet to sell its energy except for Russia. This makes the Armenia route option imperative to the West.
Turkey's border closure with Armenia does not suit US State Department interests as of August of 2008 (since the Russian attack on Georgia, Turkey is a dead-end energy corridor. Azerbaijan is locked-out from the West (pipeline route) by its own border closure with Armenia. So, in the eyes of the US State Department the borders need to open. Hence the so-called Turkey-Armenia normalization and border opening.
Under no circumstance would Russia allow Georgia to join NATO or EU. It would be suicide if Russia allows the US State Department access to central Asian energy reserves via Georgia.
The US State Department sees the benefits:
1) An end to Russian dominance (leverage and influence) over gas supplies to Europe.
2) Russian Federation would be wakened and in the future dismembered into the independent republics that form it (dagestan, tataristan, chechnya, etc.)
3) Prevent China from developing and challenging the West by controlling the same central Asian energy reserves that China is competing against the West.
4) Prevent Iran from gaining direct access route to Europe via Armenia and the black sea port of Batumi in Georgia. Iran is deploying oil & gas pipelines, railway and highway projects from Tabriz in Iran, across Armenia and on to the port of Batumi in Georgia. The Armenia route allows Iran to import and export independent of Turkey's influence.
Karekin, What you say has more than a thread of truth. However, most Armenians that air their contradictions don't even live in Armenia. I don't see an uprising against the protocols in Armenia. Armenia is suffering and mostly wants an open border. The Georgians, aka the 51st state, aren't going out of their way to help Armenia. You don't give the government of Armenia enough credit. Isn't it enough that the Constitutional Court affirms the Genocide? There will be a genocide commission and should it contradict the truth, Armenia I'm sure has contingency plans.
You might ask who is in the hot seat now? Why it's the United States of course! Armenia is playing the brokered game. No preconditions!
"Dogs quarrel among themselves, but against the wolf they are united."
Turkey can never sustain it's lies, genocide, invasions, occupations & violations forever. Eventually (which is looking very near by now) the world will get bored of Turkey's big mouth & deluded claims of being a 'regional power'. Turkey's death warrant has already been signed, the moment Erdogan enacted his Davos blunder by showing the diplomativ skills of a barbarian & insulting Israel. Israel quite rightly told Turkey to think about the Armenian issue, the Kurdish issue & Turkey's illegal invasion & occupation of EU member Cyprus, before accusing Israel of committing 'savage acts against humanity'. Erdogan's war of words with Israel, has most probably ended Turkey behind the dark political scenes already. Interesting to see the Jewish lobby in America joining the supporting camp for the Armenian genocide bill.
Turkey's enemies must love Erdogan!
Epistle to Dr. Arbuthnot poem by Alexander Pope (1688-1744)
This is very famous poem for pope.
I need expert analysis of this line.
'Bear, like the Turk, no brother near throne.'
Did Pope mean that, the Turkish sultan's use to kill their other sons leaving only the elderly alive to stay on the throne!
Is there such story in Armenian History 'killing the sons'!
Hy Robert, your flip responses are obviously your ploy - denials, deceits, all part of the Turks' ploys - in action - distractions to divert from the seriousness of the issue of Genocides - of which the Turks, from Ottomans to today are best known - by all the nations of the world.
Next in line is the Kurd, labelled as terrorists so that your leaderships shall have their reasons to perpetuate the next Genocide... to come. Manooshag
Berge, thank you for the very articulate analysis. While I see the benefits that would accrue to everyone involved, I still don't see anyone saying that billions of dollars would accrue to Armenia as a secure transit route. Am I missing something? The other invisible thread everyone (particularly Sarkisyan's govt) should pay close attention to is this: the US and its allies are working very hard to drum up anti-Iranian fervor, and it is in this context that they are working very hard to cut Armenia off from Iran and push it into the Turkish orbit. While I've heard some people say they would not actually do that, I suspect this is a huge part of their ultimate plan, because it fits with their larger goal of surrounding and the attempted strangulation of Iran. Just witness the attempt to cut Meghri off from Armenia. I seriously hope Armenia does not allow that to happen, because Iran is an essential, vital connection for the survival of Armenia, and has been its most steadfast friend in the region. If Armenia succumbs to US pressure to change that relationship, there is a good chance Iran will feel betrayed, with unknown and possibly dire consequences. Let's not forget, too, that the US/Azeri link is also connected to the 'opposition' in Iran today, which could also have a major impact on Armenia in both short and long term scenarios.
If Georgia were a neighborly country, the equation would change. Unfortunately Georgia makes no effort to accomodate Armenia. Someone told me that Georgia was a christian country. Theat's hard to believe. Tiblisi confiscates Armenian church property. Georgia is an unreliable export destination. Georgia has a class system that is prejudicial. I have trouble judging the distinction between so called christians and moslems.
The protocols must be approved whether it is at the behest of America or not. I'm tired of hearing from my friends in Armenia bemoaning their situation. The protests against the protocols in Armenia are almost non existant. Non Armenian citizens are observed with a jaundiced eye because they are sticking their nose in Armenia's business all the time. Armenia's Constitutional Court has affirmed the genocide and that is enough for this observer. Give Armenia the benefit of the doubt and see if it falters. Foreigners might learn a thing or two.
This is the world heterosexuals have dreamed about for so long. A world free of the gay children HETEROSEXUALS ALONE create. So why now are people acting like something is wrong, when all of your anti-gay frothing at the mouth comes to fruition? You helped to cause this. The United States is just one of MANY countries that participates in the abuse of its gay citizens. You all CELEBRATE this abuse. You WORSHIP this abuse. You CODIFY IT into LAW. You blame GOD for your abuse against gay citizens.
So why now is everyone acting all shocked and appalled that an ignorant, uneducated, impoverished place like Uganda is putting their own barbaric spin on their own anti-gay laws.
Sorry folks, but this falls in the lap of ALL OF YOU worldwide who seek to abuse and oppress gay citizens. THIS IS YOUR FAULT. AND YOU WILL HAVE THE BLOOD OF INNOCENT PEOPLE ON YOUR VERY OWN HANDS IF IT BECOMES LAW. And then, may God have mercy on all of your souls.
Morality indeed, heterosexuals.
Morality.
Indeed.
Karekin, what you may be missing is that its not only the Caucasus that Armenia would be servicing. Armenia can be the link to Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and several other -stans that have massive oil/gas reserves. Armenians can serve as reliable business partners to facilitate trade throughout this area. What troubles me is that opening the border will result in concentrated Turkish occupation of precisely the land that Turkey could, albeit inconceivably, cede to Armenia to settle WWI debts as a pathway to the sea (Black). So opening the border will result in making a nearly impossible dream, totally impossible. Another question impossible to answer is whether the common ordinary Armenian will see the benefit, or will it be monopolized by the oligarchs?
Where are the facts murat? where are the armenians that have lived in anatolia for the last 3000 years? either murdered or in the diaspora. My family was murdered and converted to islam that is a fact. your ignorance and your inability to be open to the truth is for me incomprehensible.
These people are decendants of Ghengis Khan, the great humanitarian, that history books have written som much about. Ghengis Khan's ilk now want to have zero problems with neighbors after 900 years of occupation and theft of the indiginous populations' cultures and genes.
May the deniers visit their great grand father Ghengis and quickly.
We don't have a choice in deciding who would be our neighbor. Iran is a neighbour country that Armenia enjoys a strategic political and economic relationship; as well as cultural and historical ties. At the end of the day we have to work with our neighbors - not the US State Department.
Treaties and protocols are not meant to be between countries of the scale of Armenia and Turkey; treaties and protocols are set between two equal-strength equal-weight countries; otherwise the stronger country does not have to respect it and later renege on the agreement.
Georgia with its current US-installed president Saakashvilli follow US State Department directives to apply pressure on Armenia to capitulate. Although Georgia declared in January that it is ready to open its borders with Russia; the Russian response was to wait until March/April. This is the same dateline for the proposed protocol ratification and border opening between Turkey and Armenia. In other words, Russia is waiting to see what the Turkish response would be to open the border with Armenia, and will act accordingly with Georgian border. (I think Saakashvilli's Georgia is dead - NATO knows it, the EU knows it and the US State Department knows it).
The US State Department flexed its muscles and arm twisted Armenia to cut off trade with Iran; but could not do a thing vis-a-vis Turkey's growing trade with Iran.
I have never heard an official of Armenia say that he thinks the US should recognize the Armenian genocide. This appears to be a first. Wow, what courage, what outspokeness, what erudition, huh?
Let's see, once every 20 years the president of Armenia has something to say about Armenian genocide resolutions. I look forward to the next such statement. That would be sometime around the year 2030.
Forget about the US - when was the last time Armenia itself bothered to recognize the Genocide? What books has Serge read about the Genocide? Anyone know? Does he know the history? Prove it.
By the way, has anyone seen or heard from the Armenian ambassador to the US? Does anyone even know his or her name? No fair to look it up. What does he or she do with his time? Was he or she on the Armenian Heritage Boat Cruise this year? If so, how does he or she look in a tan? I am sure the ambassador is hard-working. I just don't know at what.
A final question: I know that at one time Russia recognized the Armenian genocide - that was in 1995
(http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.151/current_category.7/affirmation_detail.html). Has Russia had anything to say since then, or has it been too busy conducting business with the Turks? Whayt I mean is this: the US has officially recognized the Armenian genocide several times (1951, 1975, 1981, and 1984). If the US must re-affirm its recognition, can someone please tell why Russia doesn't? Would it offend the Turks too much?
As an American Armenian, I welcome the positive, inclusive, and decisively clear positions the President articulated at this interview with Aljazeera.
don't you have guys anything to do other than keeping yourself busy with tukish armenian problems...?
Mr. Sassonian, you forgot to mention that the Constitutional Court of the Republic of Armenia refers to the current boarder as set of checkpoints.
I was one of the first to state that these protocols are dead. Even if they somehow ratified, accoirding to the international law, they would be clouded by illegal conduct of Mr. Aliyev - threatening Armenians. Furthermore, forcing Armenia to pull out from Artsakh as only condition for ratifying these protocols is another reason for illegality of such agreement.
If history is any guide, the Turkish-Armenian Protocols’ fate is already determined.
Here is a nice brief history quoted from an article by David Boyajian's " Ship of Fools: Turkey and the European Union"
Serious reforms were first attempted during Ottoman Turkey’s Tanzimat (Reorganization) period of 1839 to 1876. Pushed by Europe, Turkey declared measures, quickly proven ineffective, to safeguard the rights of its Armenian subjects.
A Turkish constitution was then declared in 1876 but suspended, along with parliament, just two years later. Article 61 of the Treaty of Berlin, signed in 1878 by the European powers, Turkey, and Russia, guaranteed the safety of Ottoman Armenians but was dead before the ink dried. Turkish “reforms” reached new levels in the 1890s with massacres of hundreds of thousands of Armenians.
In 1908 came the “reformist” Young Turk party. Inspired by European ideals, it pledged liberty, equality, and fraternity. The outcome was the massacres of Cilician Armenians in 1909, and “Reform” culminated in the cataclysm of 1915.
Turkey’s next European-inspired “reformer” was Kemal Ataturk, who all but finished off the country’s remaining Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian Christians, not to mention thousands of Muslim Kurds. He seized historical western Armenia, which Europe had promised to Armenians, and attacked the just-reborn Armenian Republic while Europe looked on.
Ataturk’s “reformist” legacy endures to this day: Genocide denial, the blockade of Armenia, and 80 years of military coups, human rights abuses galore, and even massacres, all tolerated by Europe. Today comes yet another collection of Turks pledging European-approved “reform.” This too will end in disaster if history is any guide. Given Europe’s wretched record regarding Armenians, there is little evidence that the EU will ever restrain Turkey against Armenia.”
The only ones beneifiting an open Armenian-Turkish border will be the corrupt oligarchs. The benifits will not "trickle down" to common Armenian citizens. Also, does anyone really believe that the Turks want to reconcile with the Armenians? Hardly. They are genocide perpetrators to this day. The protocols however, actually woke the diaspora up. For far too long the diaspora has had a hands off aproach on Armenia's affairs. I agree it should have strongly voiced its dire concerns sooner, during the phony elections and the March crack down, but the days of the hands off aproach I believe are over. Too much is at stake and it concerns all of us. Does anyone doubt that what all Armenians want is justice for the Armenian genocide, both acknowledgment and restitution and second, security, democracy and prosperity to all Armenians in Armenia proper? Isn't that why all Armenians in the diaspora get involved? Anything or anyone going counter to that should be discarded. Peroid!
The protocols are dead.
Garo
Sylva,
No, he does not mean sons, they are needed to carry on the dynasty. He says "brothers". Yes it was made legal around 15th century to take the life of your siblings for the sake of stability of the state. A civil war that broke out among the Sultan's sons after the death of Sultan Beyazit in the hands of Mongols, almost brought an end to the young Ottoman Empire and this was a solution. Leter they were kept under house arrest or under close guard. Being royalty was not always a blessing.
Arek,
When I say no evidence what I mean is there was no official or unofficial Ottoman policy of physical extermination, no such decisions, records or evidence, no such orders, no concentration camps, no gas chambers, no mass graves, no 1.5M Armenians dead or alive, but millions of descendants all around today.
There are very few Armenians today in Turkey, because they were ethnically cleansed from Eastern Turkey, and where they were forcibly moved at the time is not within Turkey's border's today. As you know, having lost their very bloody war against the Ottomans many escaped back to Russia with the withdrawing Russian armies, their nominal ally, and many also immigrated after the War of Independence, as life was already hard there even without being Armenian. As you also know some stayed and mixed with the Muslim population, and yes, many also died of famine, disease and plain murder in the hands of brigands, Kurds or vengeful civilians.
As Ottoman empire collapsed and nationalism spread, millions of Muslims (both my grand parents famililes) were ethnically cleansed from their ancestoral homes throughout Caucuses, Crimea, Balkans, Middle East and Aegean and poured into Turkey, and similarly, millions of non-Muslims poured out. In some cases this was orchestrated by home states in the form of population exchanges. That was the cost of having a nation-state. Ottomans did not invent it, they were the victim of it.
"These people" are not descendents of Cengiz Han, and that is certainly not the only thing you got wrong. Why ignorant shout their bigotry from roof tops, I never understand.
I hope a way is found for the protocols to be ratified. It is the right thing for both countries. Without any movement, even symbolic, in Karabag issue, it will be very difficult to get the votes, but that is Erdogan's problem. Of course, it makes little sense for Armenians to just watch it passively, as they have the most at risk.
Regardless of protocols, it would be difficult to achieve true peace and normalcy in the area without a resolution of the Karabag issue. No one should kid themselves.
Murat, the Armenians found a "resolution" to the Karabagh conflict in 1994. What resolution are you talking about?
So, as in the rest of history, Armenia is a pawn of the larger powers and a transitway that can benefit them, but not itself. It's a dangerous spot to be in, but then, it's always been that way. However, if anyone seriously thinks that oil coming from central Asia will bypass Azerbaijan and go thru Armenia to Turkey, think again. That's highly unlikely, as all those regimes are now puppets of the US, which has hardly been a true friend to Armenia. Quite the opposite, if you check the track record. I just think careful vigilance is required here...while Armenia should be on good terms with all its neighbors, when other, larger powers become involved only because of self-interest, then no good can come of it. Just look at what's happened to countries or groups of people who have been coddled by the US...eventually, the US turns on them and crushes them (Israel is the only exception). For the most part, American 'friendship' is really just a one way proposition. As long as you serve their interests...you can probably be ok. The minute you challenge their supremacy, watch out. And, you better not complain...or else.
I am just impressed as hell that the Weekly is publishing this article... The issues confronting Armenia and the Diaspora are many, but if we do not speak of them, we will never help those who suffer the most. Again, bravo and thank you!
WHat means "symbolic movement in the Karabag issue" for you, Murat?
"Regardless of protocols, it would be difficult to achieve true peace and normalcy in the area without a resolution of the Karabag issue. " => I agree. We in Artsakh (Karabagh) exist, lead a rather acceptable existence, and we certainly have the right to have a say in the talks when everybody is talking about us. I, for one, would immediately put back Karabagh in the negotiations format.
Anyways, the only major and true problem standing in the way of the development of South Caucasus is Turkey's and Azerbaijan's openly hostile and warlike attitude (including the blockade!) towards Armenia and Artsakh (Karabagh). If everyone would just leave us alone and ACCEPT THE STATUS QUO everything would be much better.
And, to the topic of protocols, in case it will happen as Mr. Sassounian states in the last couple of points, it is a shame for Armenian leadership that it took such a dangerous situation like the current one for them to stand up on their feet and open up their mouth ( no, not even fight, in a long time nobody has done any real fighting in this issue) about their NATIONAL INTERESTS!
Murat,
Artsakh(ex Karabagh) issue is with Azerbeijan & not Turkey & they are not in the protocols & should not be linked.
Should Armenia link the Cyprus issue/occupation by Turkey?Or Kurdistan????
Honesty in Presidency
Bush Family soon leaving the White House
Disregarding utterly our defined genocide!
I hope I will be alive to hear; may see to sign
Which Honest President will grant our lost reigns?
The poetry says truth honestly pearly
While politics plays, polish grimy games, sleazily.
Poets know others by clear heart in brains till spike
Been born of gifted human, honored by inner sparks.
Every creature at the end will donnish
The poems will stay speaking unleash.
Every honest will read, howl, yell, greet—
Accepting the past by endless weeping breathes!
April 24, 2008
From Poetry Collections: A Poetic Soul Shined of Genocides
Dear Stephen,
thanks for your wishes. the Review will be published twice a year from now on until it gets into a "routine" and hopefully that tradition will continue.
kind regards.
Anatolia Our Land
You the hunters
Return Our Land
Return Our Soul
You no longer can breathe there
You killed and hunted
Even kind animals
Can no longer live there.
Soon angels will enter there
Teaching you new behavior.
Return to us our lands with self-respect
Our ancestor’s skeletons are hammering there
God forgot us
Could not protect us
Frightened of your scimitars
You killed every voice from sky
Turning bluish clouds to face bleeding land.
You hunted every thing
Even your religion
Doesn’t belong to you
Belongs to Arabs
Who respect and adore every Armenian.
Arab religion is fair and kind
Till now no one killed an Armenian lad.
Return our lands
Return our souls
None belongs to you
You can no longer breathe there.
February 17, 2010
During the 8th to 10th centuries, one fundamental point of Byzantine diplomacy emerges very clearly, that on no account could the Kingdom of Armenia be allowed to fall into rival Arab or Persian hands. Armenia’s independence was so essential to preserve regardless of the difficulties in dealing with it were.
Medieval Armenia was bounded on the west by the Byzantium Empire, on the south by the Arabs of Caliphate of Baghdad, and to the east by the Persian Empire. Armenia’s foreign policy conduct was complimentarian to the three neighboring superpowers of the era. In the interest of achieving peace – a state alien to Armenians – Armenia carefully balanced the influences of its rival neighbors. This foreign policy resulted in the golden age; Armenia’s capital city Ani flourished; Armenia became a populous and prosperous nation, exerting political and economic influence over surrounding states and nations. Its existence depended on these rival empires desiring an independent Kingdom of Armenia as a buffer state, and Armenia itself being strong enough to maintain this status.
Fast forward to the 21st century, replace the Arabs of Caliphate of Baghdad with the Russian Federation; replace the Byzantium Empire with the US State Department & Turkey; and replace the Persian Empire with the modern state of Iran.
- Berge Jololian
Yes, Berge, but....let's not forget the 15 million Kurds and 28 million Azeris who are scattered over several borders, and the pull of oil, which we all know doesn't exist in the postage stamp now called Armenia. The reality is that Armenians always flourished best when living under the protection of a larger entity, and true independence was quite rare over the last 3000+ years. Topography and other factors usually mitigated against it. I think the fact that Armenians have lived w/ all these peoples in one way or another for such a long time does give them an edge, as they are truly part of the soil, of Anatolia, the Caucasus and even Iran, with whom they shared a religion for a very long time. The problem often arises when an outside power sticks it nose into the mix, and works to manipulate the locals, which is the situation we have again today. Armenians are too few and too powerless to do anything much on their own, and they know that, so they have become somewhat adept (I hope) at juggling in the circus of world politics. In this game of chess, a game in which they are quite accomplished, they need to be content to survive, not win, because winning then makes you a valuable target. I suspect Sarkisyan knows this well and is walking a very fine line carefully.
Funny, reads almost exactly like the Armenian Assembly's statement. Sounds like Sassounian has started whistling a different tune.
Historically Armenia was never left alone due to its strategic crossroad location. As a "cross-road" nation, Armenia's best policy is a complimentarian policy - not siding wholly with any super power.
In politics, a country only tilts few degrees to one side or another, depending on the politics-de-jure. A classic failure-of-a state is Saakashvilli's Georgia. By tilting 100% with the US State Department and 0% with Russia - caused havoc, wars, invasion, and instability. Small nations are recipients of pressure from super-powers; the smart policy for Armenia to follow would be to balance the interests of the super-powers, and find commonality between them - Always tilting in small degrees to one side or another; not straying too far from the center.
From a historical perspective, please, do not underestimate and downplay Armenia's achievements throughout the centuries. For a start, please, consider the Cilician Kingdom of Armenia, established in 1097 AD; became official Kingdom in 1107 AD, and lasted until 1375AD. During its 268 years of strong existence (rhetorical question: how long has the US been independent?) , Armenia had strong government structures; an army feared by its neighbors. Contributions in medicine and sciences. Not to mention a vibrant sea-trade with merchant fleets.
Cheers!
Manooshag et al,
Your delusional mind set prevents you from seeing reality. You and all of the other dashnaks are forever stuck in 3rd gear! Turkey doesn't care about receiving Armenian lands as reperation for the genocides which they committed upon Turks, Azeris, Laz, non-dashnak Armenians, Greeks, Georgians, Tartars, Kurds, Persians, Arabs, Jews. Nor do they want any money from Armenia. What they want is for Armenia to formally/officially go before the UN and admit to the hundred year old con job perpetrated upon the Christian nations, apologize to the families and nations which they committed mass atrocities upon, remove all troops from NK. That's it! You can keep all your land and money. Once this is accomplished, then we can truly move forward and normalize relations with Armenia, as well as having all the Muslim nations of the world see that they can now do business with Armenia (This is why these protocols are a test case). What will this mean for Armenia? Open boarders. An increase in trade partners and an increase in economic growth (e.g. Oil, travel, acceptance within the Central Asian nations as they all soon becomic economic oil giants, etc.). Respect from the rest of the world for owning up to their past "transgressions" and having the courage to move forward. Friendship. However, continue along the path which you are presently on, and you'll remain in a stagnated position of mass religious oppression, corrupt government, mass exodus of your own civillians (many who come to Turkey to start a new life!), a floundering economy at best, civil unrest between the peoples of Armenia and the selfish and egotistical diaspora and related organizations (i.e. ANCA, ARF, AYF, etc.), a continued world belief of a conection between the Armenian state and world-wide terrorism. Now you can all hem and haw by presenting this statistic and that statistic, continue to ignore the obvious as well as the truth, make up excuses, defame others, etc, but all you're really doing is impeading any chance of forward progress for your country. At one point, Turkey was undeservedly known as the sick man of Europe (thanks to Armenian, US, British, French and Russian efforts). But now Turkey's economy is ranked 15th in the world! They're members of the G-20! Where is Armenia ranked? Your friend Greece is on the verge of economic collapse. Get it through your hate-filled, brainwashed, excuse making heads that there is no future for you on this path that you're presently on! All of us are sick and tired of all the bickering. We all lived together in peace for more than five centuries. Why can't we do so once more! Turkey doesn't lose anything by you continuing on this path, but you all stand to lose a lot more as time goes by. Armenia will come to rely heavily on Turkey in the near future (for more than just economic trade). So, take a step back from the precipice which you're all on, take a deep breath, think and make a decision. Continue what you've been doing and go no where, or you can drum up the courage to make the difference and say yes we can to a brighter future! It's all up to you.
I too am concerned about Armenian divisions.
But I am also concerned about American divisions. Golly, why do the Democrats and Republicans always have to fight so much? Gosh, this makes me feel so bad. Why was there a civil war from 1861 to 1865 that killed a million people. Golly, I feel bad about that too. Gosh, why do we have 50 states? Why can't they all join together? Why do we have so many divisions in our country over health care, abortion, affirmative action, gay marriage, illegal immigration, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc.?
Gosh, Americans are so SO divided. And Jews are so divided too - over Israeli policy, the diiferent types of Judaism, etc. And they have so many political groups such as AIPAC, ADL, AJC, JINSA, and scores more.
You know what? I just realized that America and Americans have more divisions than Armenians do. We only have ANCA and AAA. So what's going on? Why do Armenians always harp on our divisions? Apparently, we have a lot of Armenians who can't do simple comparisons. Their fun lies mainly in putdowns of ourselves. How long are we going to have to endure this nonsense about our "divisions" from some of you? Huh? You want uniformity, go live in China or North Korea.
For admirers of the current and past regimes in Armenia. Check this link out (available both in EN and RU). This is their true face: http://versia.ru/articles/2010/jan/29/korrupciya_v_armenii
Dave - Please consider expanding this comment into an article for the Armenian press. - Aram
Dave,
Your half-wit sarcasm is uncalled for nor appreciated. If you don't care about the future and want to continue being part of the status quo, then you're doing the right thing by keeping your brainwashed, hate-filled blinders on. But, if you truly do care about what happens, then cut the crap and petition yourself and others to make the effort for a positive change and growth for the entire region and for all future generations!!
Dear "Anon,"
I suggest that you read my column once again, but this time, slowly and carefully!
Among the many points you missed is the following line at the beginning of my column:
"The Protocols were clearly in Turkey's interest!"
I have not changed my tune or my mind about the Protocols.
I remain steadfastly and staunchly opposed to these defeatist Protocols!
I am not afraid of signing my REAL name to my column and to my comment.
Even though I won't like to admit it, Sargsyan's playing a pretty solid game since his disastrous Diaspora trip. Armenia's Constitutional Court ruling, while not setting any new preconditions as Turkey would like the world to believe, did serve to explicitly throw out any possible interpretations of preconditions that would have been favorable to Turkey (ie Armenian Genocide being called into question and linkage of Artsakh issue). No one is talking about it explicitly, but this really has weakened the ARF's position on the protocols as the main points against the protocols were that they called into question the Armenian Genocide and recognition efforts and they linked "gave away" Artsakh. Maybe Sargsyan is deservedly the president of the Armenian Chess Federation as it looks like the pieces of the game are falling in place and making him look really good.
Good. It's about time that Armenian academicians in the US spoke out against the disgraceful Turkish -Armenian "protocols."
Garen,
What part do you think the impotence of our lobbying groups in local markets comprised of large Armenian populations like LA have to do with the de minimis media coverage of diaspora and Armenian issues.
Unlike the multitude of Jewish organizations (and I chose them because of the size of their diaspora in LA) that get more than ample coverage of their events and issues of import, the coverage of Armenian Americans in Los Angeles is almost like the man that was not there.
I opine that a lot of this has to do with 'dadark' leadership that do not know who is even on the playing field competing against them and our interests or do not know how to get the attention of media. At some point an angry mob outside of the Turkish embassy loses its ability to compel attention. Now, put that same event outside the Golden Globes where players who support or assist Turkish interests are present or those sympathetic of those players and all of a sudden the disruption of protest becomes compelling.
FF
For admirers of the current and past regimes in Armenia. Check this link out (available both in EN
and RU). This is their true face: http://versia.ru/articles/2010/jan/29/korrupciya_v_armenii
WOULD LIKE TO CHECK IT OUT...(EN =(ENLGISH?, if so, I can't find it! ), thanx....
If the last few decades prove anything about America’s strategy in fighting Islamic terrorism, it’s that no matter what the other side throws our way, America will respond in the most counterintuitive and self-destructive manner imaginable.
The routine goes something like this: if America is attacked by terrorists from Country A, then our response will be to bomb the hell out of Country Z, in which Z equals a doormat of a country whose sole purpose is to provide an easy, morale-boosting win. This strategy has produced mixed results, from total failure to complete catastrophe, depending on variable Z. The doormats have turned out to be booby-trapped.
Take our most recent example of this counterterror formula: a terrorist from Country A (Nigeria) tries and fails to down an American plane. According to the warped logic of the U.S. foreign-policy establishment, we must naturally attack Country Z—Yemen. Leaving aside the question of how effective it is to bomb any demographically-exploding Third World country, let’s follow the hawkish logic: some misfit can’t figure out how to blow up his underwear, but we still have to find perpetrators to punish. Problem is, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab is from Nigeria, which has almost 80 million Muslims, the largest number in sub-Saharan Africa. So that’s not going to work. ...
More … http://www.amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00006/
The American Conservative
With things looking much clearer for them in the political arena, our "political experts" are now beginning to run in circles trying to indirectly explain and excuse their obsessive, irrational and hysterical behavior when they foolishly attempted to derail the signing of the protocols last October. This comment is not only for Mr. Sassounian (who I have deep respect for) only, it's especially for all the other "political analyst wannabes with a podium" in our communities, especially those here within ARF circles.
Some food for thought: Because of various geopolitical and economic factors, Ankara, against its will, has been ‘forced’ to sit at the negotiating table with Armenia by Russia and the West. Russia is the primary puppet-master here in this matter, the West is simply acting as support. Regardless of all the rhetorical gymnastics one can perform to make a self-serving point, the fact remains that Armenia desperately needs to have normal relations with its neighbors to develop properly as a nation-state. Obviously, the normalization of relations with regional neighbors cannot come at any price. Thanks to our nation’s current ruling administration and Moscow’s support, it has not.
As a result of the current financial crisis engulfing the Western world and the outcome of the Russian-Georgian war in the summer of 2008, a resurgent Moscow is using Armenia as a stable and powerful platform to project its power in the region. The recent Russian sponsored rapprochement between Yerevan and Ankara is a great opportunity, economically and politically, for the Armenian state. The political stature of Armenia as a nation-state has not been this elevated for centuries. The question is: are we ready as a nation, as a people, to exploite this opportunity?
Say what you will about president Sargsyan, official Yerevan has played its political role brilliantly – thus far. As a result of how Yerevan handled the protocols, Armenia today is in a win-win situation despite any outcome the political process may have. And despite Turkish fears and apprehensions about engaging Armenia on an equal footing, the ball is currently in Ankara’s court and Ankara will be forced to play ball.
As I said, Armenia's political leadership has been nothing less than brilliant in this matter. Mr. Sargsyan has again proven that the Republican Party of Armenia has more political savvy and diplomatic sophistication than all our traditional diasporan parties combined. Our hopelessly ignorant/naive people (especially here in the diaspora) are only now perhaps beginning to wake up from their genocide obsessed fantasies. But I yet have to see a well composed and seriously thought-out geopolitical analysis by one of our self-proclaimed community representatives here in the diaspora...
Robert,
Your history is based on false revisions. Your false history is so fragile and your society is so insecure that laws are created banning anyone discussing the reality of the Armenian Genocide. Other then you Turks, no one really believes the Turkish fairytale stories of the Armenians murdering this group or that group. Those stories were created so your sociopath society can sleep better at night and justify the mass murder of the Armenians. In fact most history books and archives, outside of Turkey of course, clearly point to the mass atrocities perpetrated by you Turks to not only the Armenians but the Greeks, Assyrians, the Arabs and Kurds or anyone living under Turkish oppression. Are they all doing a con job as well?. It is the Turks who owe the apoligy to the Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians and humanity at large. Understand this, most all Armenians can care less about the open border because we all understand that without acknowledgment and justice of the planned Armenian Genocide there can never be true lasting peace. An open border importing Turkish garbage isn't going to wash the pain away. Oh, and before you Turks worry about Karabagh, worry about the illegal occupation of Cypress and Western Armenia.
Say what you will about president Sargsyan, official Yerevan has played its political role brilliantly – thus far. As a result of how Yerevan handled the protocols, Armenia today is in a win-win situation despite any outcome the political process may have. And despite Turkish fears and apprehensions about engaging Armenia on an equal footing, the ball is currently in Ankara’s court and Ankara will be forced to play ball. Mr. Sargsyan has again proven that the Republican Party of Armenia has more political savvy and diplomatic sophistication than all our traditional diasporan parties combined. Our hopelessly ignorant/naive people (especially here in the diaspora) are only now perhaps beginning to wake up from their genocide obsessed fantasies...
Mr. Yegparian,
While I fully understand the reasoning behind your article and I do believe that the Los Angeles Times should be covering more human interest stories related to the Armenian community, I believe the notion of Armenian news not being covered is a slight misconception. Here is some evidence that backs it up.
As early as Feb.13, there are dozens of stories you can find - all it takes is searching. The most recent is about an Armenian rug maker who revels in his craft (http://www.latimes.com/features/home/la-hm-hratch13-2010feb13,0,3498690.story) another from January is about chess player Varuzhan Akobyan (http://www.latimes.com/features/puzzles/chess/la-ca-chess10-2010jan10,0,496774.story). There's even a short fiction story featuring an Armenian theme:http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-story13-2009dec13,0,4646309.story
The Glendale News-Press (part of the Times Community Newspapers) also does its fair share of coverage of the Armenian community, so I think it's unfair to brand the LA Times as you have.
In regards to Protocol coverage, I just have a few points to make. I was at the protests here in Los Angeles, not as a protester but as a journalist and wrote an article about the protests which you can find on my online news magazine here:http://www.ianyanmag.com/?p=1313
While I witnessed the events of the day and saw how many people were there myself, around 3 to 4,000, Armenian media inflated the figure to around 12,00o. As a witness to the event, this information was false. This is not the first time I have come across factual errors and bias reporting in Armenian newspapers. My point in all this is, before we start to point the finger outside, we should take a look within our own media and see problems we can fix. If we demand fair coverage from the Los Angeles Times, asking coverage of good and bad events, we should demand the same of our own media. Where are the human interest stories about homosexuality, about domestic violence and abuse, about gang violence or corruption in our community? More often then not, they go ignored. Out of sight, out of mind, as they say. This is one of the things I am doing all I can to change with my online site.I believe confronting our problems, instead of sweeping them under the rug is the only road to progress.
Apologies for going on so long, but as a journalist, I felt compelled to speak out. I enjoyed reading your article.
-Liana
ianyan magazine
So what? What is the real value of Serj wanting Obama to recognize the Genocide? Does it mean Obama was waiting all this time for Serj to urge him to do that? He could care less. Sorry for reiterating this obvious fact, but Obama will serve his country’s national interests. If they require that the ‘G’ word is used in his Annual Appeal to the Armenian People this year, he’ll use it. If they require passage of a Genocide resolution in the Congress, it’ll be passed. But if recognition goes against the U.S. national interests, no Serj or anyone else can push him towards making that step. I think by means of such interviews and speeches (like the recent one in Chatham House, London) Serj and few other protocol-supporters aim at mollifying the Diaspora and the anti-protocol majority inside his country. Serj knows that in politics words are cheap, what matters is his government’s signature on the defeatist protocols and the fact that he’s submitted them to the parliament.
To Dave: In order to understand what Armenian ambassador in the US does, we need to know how the current Armenian government system works. People who know the ambassador indicate that, being a provincial who came from a remote village to the capital in order to establish himself as a personality and acquire a personal significance, he has a deep inferiority complex and suffers from agoraphobia (fear of open space). In addition, this is a type of a person who fears vehemently any uncontrolled word or a miscalculated step that could irritate his superiors, because deep in his small psyche he envisions himself as a future president of Armenia as a compensation for his miserable, plebeian essence. What can we expect from such an ambassador? Besides, in countries like Armenia (and, I believe, beyond), ambassadors play only nominal role. Many of them are brown-nosers, subservient to their masters in Yerevan or beyond.
Robert - please - keep your fantasies to yourself. Any honest student of history knows exactly what happened as the Ottoman Empire disintegrated, and for you or anyone to suggest that Armenians - a minority of 20 - 25% of the population - could have or might have been able to overcome an imperial army is just patently ridiculous. The world knows the truth because the world was there and was watching. So, at least be honest about it....spewing nationalistic propaganda, based on the lies of the Ittihadists is just stupid. While I agree that Turkey is and will continue to be an important power in the region, I think it, like many other countries, is a largely a puppet of the US. Turkey needs oil, as does Israel, and both will get their oil from Azerbaijan. Let's be honest about that. You need Armenia to be compliant and submissive because you learned that Georgia is even more of a mess, even more of a risky bet than Armenia. But, the US goal of cutting Armenia away from Iran is where the plan falls short. So yes, having an open border w/ Turkey will be a good thing, but I have yet to see any guarantees from Turkey on Armenia's security or any expression of compensation for the planned use of Armenian territory as a transit route for Azeri oil. Perhaps if something concrete is put on the table for all to see, then more support would be forthcoming. Without that kind of transparency, it will be very hard to find cheerleaders amongst the nationalist Armenian crowd for this move. This is all about driving the right deal, the right bargain...eventually, hopefully, something will develop that is win-win on all sides, but please understand everyone's caution at this point. Turkey's track record w/ Armenians has not been so good in the recent past, so in order to change the perception and trust level, it is on Turkey's shoulder's to make a serious move, not Armenia's. Turkey is 70 million people, with an army larger than the population of Yerevan...it has nothing to fear, believe me.
This SAS statement is not as strong as one might like, but it is still good. However, why did it take months for the SAS to say something about these protocols? It should not have taken so long.
The SAS was very upset and reacted quickly when a young Turkish scholar was arrested in Armenia a few years ago. The SAS was very upset and reacted quickly when some scholars in Armenia said that Armenian American academicians were ignoring evidence that Armenian civilization began much earlier than some Western scholars were claiming. So why, when the protocols cast doubt on the
veracity of the genocide with a "historical commission," did the SAS have nothing to say? There is a clear double standard there.
"The Story of Near East Relief," by James L. Barton, 1930, Djemal Pasha brought 150,000 Armenians t0 Beirut and Aleppo according to his "Memories of a Turkish Statesman."
"We are absolutely convinced that the policy of Russia alone was responsible for the enmity between Turkish and Armenian elements. .. . I did everything possible during the whole period of their deportation to give help to the Armenians....When after the deportations of the Armenians of Anatolia, the civil authorities received the command to deport all Armenians from Adana and Aleppo, I repeatedly opposed this measure...However, as I was convinced that the deportation of all Armenian emigrants to Mesopotamia was bound to cause them great distress, I thought it better to bring a large number of them into the Syrian vilayets of Beirut and Aleppo; I succeeded in obtaining the desired permission after I had made vigorous representations to Constantinople. In this way, I was actually able to bring nearly 150,000 Armenians to these vilayets."
I bought this book and others in order to learn the history; and I will donate these books to the AGM. It would be nice to have these books digitalized for all to read, since they are rare and getting old.
Hasan Cemal does write nice articles which are published in Hurriyet. I did find this passage written by his grandfather, which I thought might be interesting to you.
I see this sentence above: " a young Jewish man from Germany who has jumped off a train on the way to a death camp in 1943 ...".
Has Chris written anything about Armenians lately?
robert and the other turkophiles like murat et al. religiously monitoring this website seem to get off on having their twisted revisionist accounts of history and unwarranted criticism published on the Armenian Weekly.
I can understand that coming from a country like Turkey with so many restrictions on freedom of speech, this new found freedom available to them on the Armenian Weekly is a blessing. Now that they understand the immense benefits of freedom of speech I hope they will "cut the crap and petition themselves and others to make the effort for a positive change and growth" in Turkey rather than spewing misinformed hate mongering comments that are neither constructive in addressing rampant ignorance in Turkish society about the Armenian Genocide nor helping Turks join the civilized international community. Now do you understand?!!
I know those involved in the Hay Dat don't want to hear this for obvious reasons; but individuals who have even a slight understanding of real world politics realize that none of our "grassroots" activists, PR campaigns and lobbying organizations in Washington matter much in the world of realpolitik. All the effort we place in Washington regarding our Hay Dat is efforts wasted. The cold hard fact of the matter is - the US will recognize the "Armenian Genocide" when it suits its geopolitical/economic interests. For about a hundred years now American presidents have worked for special interests (the nation's elite) that have essentially put them into power. I would hate to think that our community representatives as well as our lobbying organizations actually believe that the political establishment in America is run by elected officials...
American democracy is essentially a two ring circus (Republican and Democrat) run by a ringmaster (the financial/political elite). When our naive people wake up and realize this fact everything will suddenly make sense...
Agreed, PaulTor, the statement isn't as strong as it could be, and comes late in the game. But still, it's something for which defenders of the truth should be grateful. It's coming from those who have studied the subject meticulously. I do wonder why this communique isn't addressed to anyone in particular. Why not to the (albeit undemocratically un-elected) President of Armenia, Serge Sarkissian? Instead, the SAS statement speaks of Sarkissian's formally stated position on Armenian Genocide recognition -- recognition that neither Sarkissian, Nalbandian, the Parliament nor ROA ambassadors abroad have promoted on domestic, regional or international fronts. (Forget restitution, reparations and right of return -- they are nowhere to be seen.) Incredible as it sounds, could the weak statement be because some SAS academics worry about keeping their university jobs, where their supervisors may one day call upon them to engage in a "scholarly debate" about the Armenian Genocide?
I had posted something here several months ago but oddly, it was only actually 'cleared' by the administrator two weeks later... when practically no one was reading the said article anymore. The thing was, it was a painfully truthful article regarding the opening of the borders and the potential gains to the everyday Armenian business and persons. It was meant to be from a friendly Turk. In any case, let me get to my point here..... I often find that these types of sites breed a certain 'herd' mentality and contrasting points of views are often repressed. We are neighbors and have been for many centuries. It will be on the shoulders of those who consistently (and blindly) resist the signing of the protocols (on both sides) that our children will continue to be taught hatred and ignorance. Keeping the borders closed will only play to the hands of those who want the people to continue to be ignorant and filled with hatred. It's time to 'RE-LEARN' from each other through open borders. That is the ONLY way to really come to terms with our mutual violent history.
/A friendly Turk.
There are other major problems with this statement: The group that Prof. Richard Hovannisian chairs or has chaired for years officially recognizes Serge Sarkisian as "President" of Armenia and does not explicitly condemn the disastrous protocols!
What does this say about his son Raffi Hovannisian and the opposition credentials of Raffi's Heritage party?
What does this say about SAS's commitment to democracy and human rights in Armenia following the significantly flawed presidential elections and the government-sponsored slaughter of innocent citizens on March 1-2, 2008?
What does this say about SAS's commitment to advancing the Armenian Cause (to liberating occupied Armenian lands and properties)?
The bottom-line is that SAS policies are increasingly in line with U.S. government policies, and that's quite troubling!
it's interesting that this plot is described as that which has to do with a whole community - what they did, what they failed to do ... Perhaps this is a recurring Armenian theme. It reminds me of Atom Egoyan's films. By the way, the past tense of "weave" is "woven."
Hy robert the turk,
P.S. As a turk - you unable to see the decay of your own governments more and more.. Decayed, decaying and more - inevitably.
Your turkey puts up a slew of PLOYS - denials, delaying tactics, bluffing, bullying and more. The days of your government apparently, are numbered... but, of course, you fail to see what you don't want to see... the truths...
Manooshag
Well, Michael, Chris has written about Armenians on many occasions. One recent example is this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/03/AR2009040301894.html
You're right on the mark Dave with your insightful comments.
I too second Aram's suggestion and look forward to reading
more from you.
Thank you Mr. Bahadourian. I have commented before on Mr. Yepgarian's articles being extremely liberal, hence full of deception. His political opinions should not be published on an Armenian news portal.
On Nov. 3, the former presidents of the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) sent the following letter to the Turkish Prime Minister:
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan
TC Basbakanlik
Bakanlikir
Ankara, Turkey
Fax: 90 312 417 0476
Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
The recent signing of protocols by the governments of Armenia and Turkey, which was brokered by leading states of the international community, marks the beginning of a process that would lead to establishing diplomatic relations between the two countries. Constituencies in both countries find some or all of the protocols problematic. We, the former presidents of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, write to you to express our concern about one of them: the establishment of a historical commission to study the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire in 1915.
We are sending you this amended version of the Open Letter we wrote you in June 2005 to reiterate our objection to your insistence that there be a historical commission, in which Turkey would be involved. Because Turkey has denied the Armenian Genocide for the past nine decades, and currently under Article 301 of the Turkish penal code, public affirmation of the genocide is a crime, it would seem impossible for Turkey to be part of a process that would assess whether or not Turkey committed a genocide against the Armenians in 1915.
Outside of your government, there is no doubt about the facts of the Armenian Genocide, therefore our concern is that your demand for a historical commission is political sleight of hand designed to deny those facts. Turkey has, in fact, shown no willingness to accept impartial judgments made by outside commissions. Five years ago, the Turkish members of the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission pulled out of the commission after the arbitrator, the International Center for Transitional Justice, rendered an assessment that the events of 1915 were genocide.
And, Prime Minister Erdogan, you have repeatedly stated that even if a historical commission found that the Armenian case is genocide, Turkey would ignore the finding.
As William Schabas, the current president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, said in his letter to you and President Sarkisian, “acknowledgment of the Armenian Genocide must be the starting point of any ‘impartial historical commission,’ not one of its possible conclusions.”
Our previous letter, which was unanimously approved by the members of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, lays out the consensus among historians as to the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide. We believe the integrity of scholarship and the ethics of historical memory are at stake.
Dear Janine,
According to the Oxford English Dictionary both "weaved" and "woven" are correct.
To marty: Just click on TRANSLATE in the upper right corner and the text will be converted into English:
http://versia.ru/articles/2010/jan/29/korrupciya_v_armenii
Let's not kid ourselves folks, I've been to Turkey several times and spoken with many people there. You might be surprised to hear that no one has ever disputed the genocide in discussing 1915 with me...not once. Based on personal experience, I can tell you that the general population - from hotel bellhops to well educated university professors - all know very well what happened...and they'll tell you as much, but because of the laws against using the word 'genocide', it can't be printed or published there without the word 'alleged'. When you can walk by a beautiful, but vacant, empty and boarded up house, whether in Istanbul or out in the east, people will very often tell you that it's an Armenian house. Kind of amazing. Until recently, academic scholarship has also been severely suppressed due to the laws and because of the oppressive nature of the underlying propaganda message that is endlessly cultivated - despite what everyone knows to be true. That said, Turkey is overwhelmingly hospitable to Armenians who live there, move there or visit there. I have been many places in the world, but nothing compares to the feeling I get in Turkey....politics aside, it's truly magical and feels like home. Of course, every place has room for improvement. Once Turkey and Armenia overcome this issue, and learn a level of mutual respect, without fear or hatred or anger, I'm sure the future can be very bright. It's something worth working towards.
Thanks for the writing. It's a very accurate description of the state of affairs in the Diaspora. I have relatives who took part in the Nerkakht in the late 1940's yet some of that family now ended up in Australia...that is after the collaps of the USSR and the formation of todays RA.
While I would love to consider living in Armenia...I can't see being treated as a second class citizen any comfort.
From what I have read corruption is rampant and diasporan Armenians are not treated fairly at all.
At my age (65) not much matters either. A visit to Armenia, as a tourist may be all I can hope for?
Avetis,
Most Armenians on this planet are against the protocols in its current form. No one denies the fact that an open border will be beneficial, but mostly for the Republican Party oligarchs, which is what you mean by the "Armenian State". However, true reconciliation and lasting peace must come first by including and then resolving the Armenian Genocide issue which the Turks have no desire doing. The border was illegally closed by the Turks and not Armenians so the ball has always been in their court.
The protocols in its current form are a major political blunder secretly hatched by a phony elected self serving thug that has very little credibility and trust by most Armenians. You give Sargysian way too much credit. It was the constitutional court that had to clarify Armenia's position on the genocide or he was all to happy to not only concede the borders but send the Armenian genocide into a "historical commission" abyss, forever burying it while all the time falsely maintaining a position of "no preconditions".
Last, you give the Diaspora, which was genocidal created, way too little credit. There are over 20 countries that recognize the genocide today because of the sweat of the Diaspora. The Armenian lobby in the US plays an important role in securing millions of dollars for Armenian Aid as does all other Diaspora organizations. The Lindsey foundation alone, donated over 250 million US dollars for road building, schools etc. All this was done without anything in return other then the betterment of Armenia and its people. Your beloved Russia gives to Armenia but always for its own benefit. It's giving is self serving and always has strings attached. There is nothing from Russia without something in return. Nothing is for free. Nothing. Sargysian on the other hand, rules to fill his own pockets as well as those of his friends. He lives lavishly while most Armenians live in poverty. His self appointed rule cost the Armenian nation 60 million US dollars from the millennium package alone and anyone who apposed him received beatings and lengthy jail time.
Before calling people "ignorant" understand that very few Armenians agree with your sometime rude and mostly skewed point of view.
Someone who knows please explain:
Why were the post-WW 2 immigrants to Soviet Armenia looked down upon by some natives?
Were they all looked down upon?
Was this, instead, jealousy? An inferiority complex?
Was this because some of the immigrants were communist believers?
Or because the natives thought anyone who moved to Soviet Armenia had to be crazy?
Stalin certainly persecuted the newcomers, but why would that have caused natives to look down upon them?
Finally, I am not at all sure that Armenians in Armenia resent the Diaspora. I think they prize the Diaspora in many cases because they see that the Diaspora has tried to help them. It is the tavajans - as Astarjian refers to them - in the highest levels of the Armenian government and society who do not like the Diaspora for one main reason: The Diaspora does not like tavajans and does not like seeing these tavajans filling their pockets with Diaspora cash that is intended for the people.
As for the use of the word "aghper" (brother) by some natives to mean trash when referring to the post WW 2 immigrants, I myself believe that many of the present "leaders" of Armenia are trash. I think we should start referring to them as such. I recall that in his old columns years ago Astarjian used to derisively refer to LTP as "Baron Nakhakhar" ("Mr. President"). Perhaps we should start using the word trash when referring to Armenian leaders. If the shoe fits, wear it.
Karekin,
I too have been to Turkey however it felt it to be unsafe and dirty. I remember gathering on the cruse ship and all of us were collectively warned to "be careful and trust no one" before docking at the Turkish port. Turks portray themselves as forward and modern yet it was hard to ignore the fact that their country was founded upon the murder and theft of others and i always felt that given the chance they were capable of doing the same thing.
From Day 1, the protocols were never a good thing.
Even if a person believed the protocols contained good elements, ask yourself: Is this really the best we as a people can do - that is, protocols that divide the Armenian nation and whose implementation is of dubious value? Wow, that is shooting rather low, don't you think? Why not just shoot ourselves in the head and claim it's only a flesh wound?
If Turkey turns down the protocols, it is doubtful that this would have a negative affect on that country. Turkey is made of Teflon, and problems usually roll off its back because other countries won't stand up to it. So please don't think that Armenia will win much of a propaganda victory out of all this, and even if it did, was it really worth it?
Finally, I believe that Russophilism, like Turkophilism, is a certifiable mental illness. I think that if you looked both of them up in the mental disorders manual of the APA (American Psychological Association), you would find them. Here's the link: http://www.apa.org/pubs/index.aspx.
Yes, both Russophiles and Turkcophiles are in need of serious counselling, prescription medicine, or, as a last resort, institutionalization.
Yup well said John.
Avetis seems content towing the bears
recalcitrant line despite the fact that
An overwhelming majority of Armenians
Despise Russia's self serving tactics.
If he's got a KGB list of 'I owe you's'
To return he should find other ways
Of returning the bears favors...
We pray for Armenian Team rewards with a safe return to their Country and their Beloved.
Nodar Kumaritashvilli: Georgian Luger
You didn’t have place in luge artificial track
You went running prone
Returned supine
With hopeless locked eyes.
Olympics is a festival no one should die
The tragedies are tragedies no one can avoid.
If it was man made
Must get punishment.
Man made mistakes
Gave others rewards.
Inefficient Hands
Signed your unexpected death!
We are in tears
Can we forget?
Pains remain decades
For every innocent death.
We pray and say, “God helps your mother and no one else!”
Sylva Portoian, MD
February 18, 2010
Our prayers for Armenian Team rewards, with safe return to their country and their beloved.
Avetis,
The protocols are not a genuine diplomatic gesture from the Armenian government, nor from the Turks. The only reason why the border is closed is because of the NKR war. The sub-commissions and recognizing of the borders, as well as the need to 'ratify' them are unnecessary concessions that only a weak minded regime would allow. They are just bonuses for the Turks.
Your position has evolved through the months since the protocols were announced, and you have often contradicted yourself. The only issue the protocols are meant to 'solve' are the illegitimacy issues of the regime. In exchange for making it easier for America to ignore the genocide issue (amongst other, greater geopolitical concessions) -- the West will ignore Sarksyan's human rights violations and etc.
Continuing to think that this is some great Russian adventure that are good for Armenia is being naive. America is slowly creeping into the Caucasus.
Dear Astarjian,
Your holier than thou article combined with pseudo psychoanalysis is a greater disservice to Armenians overall and a service to the pashas in Turkey that you disdain.
First you exaggerate the contributions of the Diaspora, monetarily or otherwise. Yes lot's of well meaning benefactors and benevolent acts, but proportionally not that significant! You write as if Armenia should have a debt of gratitude for the Diaspora’s magnanimity. Today there is even a bigger and more recent Armenian Diaspora in Russia who far outstrip in their contributions to their homeland.
Then you bring up the ugly side of the repatriation, as if to rub salt in old wounds, which, once again I would consider intentionally unhelpful. You seem to be desperately seeking structural arguments, or fundamental reasons for disparaging Armenia. As if there is a fundamental chasm between the dualities that can only be solved by further alienation. And in fact your article serves uniquely to alienate.
As a third generation diasporan I am thoroughly ashamed when I hear such attitudes expressed by the haughty diasporans. As if by living a few decades in the USA, Canada you can lay claim to their democratic traditions. Just remember what countries you originated from. They were no better than Armenia and possibly much much worse.
And finally! Please, please, before you start slapping the schizophrenia epithet on Armenians as a whole, consider how ill thought out your thesis is.
LONG LIVE THE ARF & MEMBERS!
John,
I would like to make a point that America was also once (as a matter of fact, it still is) run by corrupt "oligarchs" that unlike Armenia's insignificant "Dodi Gagos" and "Nemets Rubos", were for a long-long time engaged in worldwide slavery, segregation of non WASPS in the states, genocide against American natives, economic exploitation of all, annexations of neighboring countries, illegal wars and the accumulation of war plunder...
This is essentially how America (as well as every other wealthy/civilized Western nation) became immensely wealthy. With the aforementioned acquisition of wealth coupled with relative peace and stability, America's international trade flourished. Naturally, this prosperity initially helped the big wigs in the country; the Duponts, the Morgans, the Rockefellers, the Bushes, the Kennedys, the Carnegies... Within several generations, however, this wealth eventually, due to laws of nature, trickled down to the masses... The Western world's financial elite is so immensely wealthy that the crumbs that fell of their tables are fully sufficient to sustain hundreds of millions of people under their rule.
Regarding Armenia: It's still a developing/fledgling nation. And, as a matter of fact, even with all its socioeconomic and political problems it is still better off today that most fledgling nations on earth are or have ever been. When the nation's financial elite get fatter and fatter - so will eventually the nation's middle class that essentially services the upper class. During the past ten years or so we have actually witnessed this in the country. What Armenia needs today is peaceful/normal coexistence with all its neighbors, especially Turkey, Georgia and Iran. The Russian imposed political process we are currently seeing in the region is a historic opportunity for Armenia, an opportunity to potentially/eventually break out of its isolated third world existence.
Anyway, I put is as simple as possible. I'm not going to be giving you an in-depth lesson in human nature, economics or history. These are things you should have learned growing up. However, I do realize that you, being an Armenian, will have a natural tendency toward irrational and emotional outbursts, which may be why you are not be seeing the big global/objective picture around you. Don't worry, however, you are not alone in your emotional blindness; individuals like you represent the majority of us.
Moreover, one day you will realize that there are two basic categories of nations that have recognized the Armenian Genocide:
1) nations that do not have significant geopolitical/financial relations with Ankara; nations such as Argentina, Venezuela, Canada, Slovakia...
2) nation that have political/geopolitical reasons for them to do so; as in the case of Cyprus, Italy, Greece, France and Russia...
Another news flash, John; bedsides the fact that the money sent to Armenia from Washington is merely used to impose American interests in Armenia and not help the nation, per se... Washington sends money to Armenia for the simple fact that it does not want to see Armenia 'fully' retreat into the Russian (and to the Iranian) camp...
So, trust me, even if an Armenian lobbying group like the ANC did not exist, the US State Department would have created one for us... There are many examples for this throughout American history. The very close relationship between the American government and Albanian-Americans today are a perfect recent example of what I am trying to make you understand. The US government instantaneously created American-Albanian "friendship" organization as a result of what it was planing to do in the Balkans...
Assuming that you people here are adults, I'm embarrassed that I have to even mention all this...
PS: I am not here to make friends. I am just troubled to see the low intellectual caliber of diasporan Armenians. And I am a diasporan :-)
It is part of deep seated human nature to not hate the weak but to have contempt for the weak which is far worse. Why all the smiling faces at the protocol signing? Russia wants an Armenia without Armenians, an ambition since the mid 19th century, the turks want to finish us off so that no one would even remember that there ever was an Armenia or Armenians and the U.S. and european countries (most of whom are guilty of genocide in Europe and the third world) are only dreaming of cheap natural gas at the expense of a weak little insignificant country like Armenia. But what do we want? The answers are varied as we all know. Why should this be? Dont we have an Ethos? Dont we have a drive for success for our Armenian Civilization? For most these ideas are alien and never thought of which is where the problem lies. There is a national imperitive, an Armenian Ethos which includes a territorial imperitive for which our survival depends upon. We must expand to our natural borders at the expense of our non indigenous genocidal neighbors. We must be self sufficient in terms of food and fuel stocks. Make no mistake the barbarians wish to complete the genocide against us. Armed with this knowledge we have no room to make mistakes. There is black and white in these issues about our national survival. Those who believe in grey hues have already accepted defeat and inaction as a natural course. We have to think on our own terms living the tenets of our ethos not thinking in terms of others and how others perceive us. I am proud to be Armenian. I am proud of 3,000 years of Armenian Civilization. I will not let it die because of illiterate turk culture loving oligarchs. I remember my ancestors on a daily basis. I keep in my heart and mind the sacrifices and injustices done to my family and my greater family, the Armenian people. I have contempt for all those who try to get in the way of our national imperitives, Hye or odar. We have but one path and that is to decimate our enemies with prejudice before they destroy us.
Dan,
Some of what you write is based in truth but exaggerated.
I am fully aware of the corruption of Armenia. But I am even more distressed by Diaspora Armenians (I am one) who dispose of Armenia with shrill anger and a dismissive brush stroke.
I hope you realise that not many countries are less corrupt than Armenia. Even in the most developed part of the world we have prime ministers on the take, presidents stealing elections.
Armenia is far from perfect, but it also is not impossible to improve. I am afraid too many diasporans have the same defeatist attitude.
Another advice. Do not believe the statistics by world bodies when they come out with their corruption indexes. Many of the countries rated higher than Armenia are far more corrupt. Just please tell me why should Israel or Turkey be considered less corrupt than Armenia ?
Coming to the repatriation of the 40s, many were mistreated, and even sent to gulags or to Siberia after immigrating into Armenia. They also probably had high economic expectations of Armenia and felt deceived when faced with the reality. So, the attitudes and the competition for economic well being just after the devastation of the war probably manifested itself as resentment against the newcomers.
Again! Don’t search for reasons to denigrate and write-off on Armenia, if you wish to be truly helpful you would lo0k beyond the negatives and accentuate the positive.
Yes ku tsavet tanem Johnny Marsbedian jan. Apres AKPHERES.
Henry,
I am afraid your tone and what you wrote is axactly what I am referring to.
Think it over.
Pourquoi? I was being sincere. Those are some very good Hayastantsi words of affection. And also, I wanted to point out that the derogatory word is not "akpher" -- that is the correct slang word for 'brother.' Instead, it is "akhpar." Western Armenians are called "akhpars" -- not "akhpers." Notice the A and the E.
Karekin thinks "Turkey is overwhelmingly hospitable to Armenians who live there" ...ahahahahahaha now that's hilarious! Who are you trying to kid? You don't have a clue what its like living in Turkey my friend. Trust me, not a bloody clue. "overwhelmingly ospitable to Armenians" yegher! It's not April 1st is it? Have you heard of the assasinated Armenian editor Hrank Dink and the others that live in fear for their life and family day in and day out in that intolerable country??? Restricted freedoms, trampeled religous rights, a corrupt justice system and Hrant Dink's murderers still considered heros. Anyone who knows aything about life in Turkey will tell you with a straight face that if your not "pure bread Turkish" you are an infidel and thus treated as a second class citizien. Your living in a fantasy land Karekin. Drop the kebab diplomacy and wake up from your deep deep sleep.
Henrik jan, my fast talkin' Levin Petrostein salesman, how has my position regarding the so-called protocols changed? The fact of the matter is, since Mr. Sargsyan publicly reached out to Ankara in the spring of 2008 while he was in Moscow - I have been repeating myself over-and-over-and-over again that Moscow was behind the issue and that this was a great historic opportunity for Armenia... Since Moscow defeated the West/Turkish/Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi during the summer of 2008 - I have been repeating myself over-and-over-and-over again that Moscow is using Armenia as a platform from which to project its economic and political power in the region. I have also been saying that Armenia plays a long-term strategic role for Moscow by acting as a front against Turkic and Islamic expansion in the volatile Caucasus. I have also been saying that as a result of the Russian-Georgian war and the economic crisis engulfing the West - the West has been effectively evicted from the region and Moscow today is the sole puppet master in the Caucasus...
So, Henrik jan, tsavd tenem, axpers, please tell me how my position has "evolved" or how I have "contradicted" myself...
Nevertheless, your take on the whole matter (especially the part about Moscow allowing American encroachments in the Caucasus - outright hilarious) reeks of amateurism, not worthy of a bright collage student like you. But allow me to give you a little hint here: While the Kremlin is pushing the protocol issue forward they have their personal in their news media claiming otherwise, Russian media is blaming the pesky Americans... This is a classic case of diversion, a smoke screen. See if you can guess why they are doing this...
Henry,
First off,
Ak-pher, doesn't mean anything, you meant Akh-per.
Secondly your choice of the vernacular "tsavet tanem" has a hint of mockery, followed by the very connotative Akhper.
I am in no position to question your sincerity, although it is doubtful for the reasons I have just given.
btw. If you needed to know where I am writing from you just had to ask rather than traceing my IP.
Aveli lav klni axperov tsavd tanemov hetes che khosas. Amota, metz mart es.
Anyway, you said the Turks will be "forced to kneel" by the Americans. Why are the Americans forcing the Turks to kneel and ratify the protocols if the Russians are the ones behind it? And, also, you haven't explained to us idiots why, if it is so brilliantly in Russia's interests, why is America so tenaciously supporting the deal? Are these cold cut masterminds in the state department so stupid? Or is this one of those "this is good for everyone" type of things -- good for Russia, Armenia, and America, except Turkey. It's bad for Turkey, right?
Aveli lav klini internetits durs gas u gnas ashkhates, mek mek yerexanerit het khakhes, mek mek. Yes ko masin shat em mtatsum Avetis jan =).
You seem to be the token Republican party advocate here. Didn't you say the Republican party is the "wisest" political party in Armenia -- able to be politically mature and so forth? Oh that's right, Edward Sharmazanov is a genius! You would think with all that smarty-stuff and knowledge about "real" Armenians and the "real" Armenia, you would know that political parties seldom push through policies or have real ideological platforms -- let alone the REPUBLICAN PARTY.
So strange Paron Avetis, you are so much more older, more mature, and much more educated than I am yet you seem to lack a fundamental ability to control your tantrums long enough to carry a decent conversation without calling someone an idiot. Why this gap in your personality?
The most reliable polls suggest somewhere between 10-15% support for the Republican Party. The biggest 'lead' they've ever had in a somewhat reliable poll is 30. Yet they control 60+% of the parliament? Wait a minute...I forgot, you don't even believe in democracy!
Haha what? I don't even know how to trace an IP? Or even what to do with it otherwise.
Anyway, being a Hayastantsi and all -- I can tell you as a matter of fact "tsavet tanem" is NOT mockery in any way. And this bit about Ak-pher and akhper is a typo =). Clearly. I don't know why i wrote it like that! Silly me. If I were to say, for example, "apres jigyaris mernem kyankit" maybe that would be a little weird. But akhpers and what not is very legitimate non-homoerotic vernacular for young Hayastantsi Armenian men.
Johnny, I don't know what your politics are but I appreciate your sober and objective perspective concerning our fledgling homeland. I totally agree with your comments. Sadly, I seldom see diasporan Armenians expressing the kind of humble wisdom you just expressed. Armenia and Hayastantsis deserve much more credit than we big talking diasporans are willing to give them. And, yes, I'm a diasporan. I think we have way too many "Dan" types in our diasporan communities.
Murat and Robert represent your typical misinformed Turks that the majority of Armenians feel sorry for when they open their mouths. Taking pride and much effort in espousing their backwards revisionist propaganda to anyone that can stand their hate filled rhetoric at the expense of their time and every one elses patience, we entertain them. They are convinced that by monitoring this website day in and day out they will prove something to the world. At the end of the day however, what they repeatedly prove to the world is that ignorance has no limits.
Avetis, we agree on this issue! Maybe we can be friends, after all.
Lava vor im masin es mtatsum, tsavd tenem axper jan, bayc du indz lav ches hasgacel - I said eventually Turk swill be brought to their knees by "Russia" and the "West/America". But it won't be easy, cos' Turkey is a big guy. Know what I mean...
US is reluctantly supporting the agenda because it desperately needs regional stability, and secure access to the region's oil/gas for its regional client states such as Israel, Turkey and south-eastern Europe. Like I said, Moscow today is the sole puppet master in the region. Since Georgia is knocked out of commission for the foreseeable future, Armenia, Moscow's regional favorite, is on center stage. Too bad for the Turks/West/America Armenia is more-or-less run by Moscow. Moscow is using Armenia as a platform to project its economic and political power in the region. That is why they are forced to sit at the table with Armenia.
Projects on the table include, at the very least: a new oil refinery plant in Armenia, a new nuclear plant in Armenia, regional rail network, regional superhighway network, regional gas/oil pipeline network...
And, like I said, I don't believe in "democracy," the Hollywood contrived fantasy that the ignorant masses (especially in developing nations) can or should be entrusted to make wise political decisions. Nor do I believe in polls. LOL
Jogir axpers?
Nope, no friendship for you. I don't like Levin Petrostein fans.
Johnny, thank you. I was going to write something similar with my limited English, but you've saved my efforts. I also I think this article is not helpful for anything, just causes anger. And the problems of post-WW 2 immigrantion are so outdated and old that we should not even compare with todays situation. Today almost every family in Armenia has a close relative who is an immigrant. And there are far less cultural differences and discriminations between different groups. Corruption is big problem. But we should fight it together, not blame on each other.
I left Armenia 20 years ago when it was still USSR. I couldn't event think back then that it will become independent one day. I fill guilty, but I can't go back now. And I'm worried a lot about the next generation. That's to me is the biggest problem. The assimilation is happening slowly, but it's happening. And by the time we realize it it will be too late. If my grandfather and hundreds of thousands of like him would not have left his comfortable life in Marseille 60 or so year ago and come to post war Armenia, where there was famine and Stalinism, we wouldn't even have independent Armenia today, since Armenians might have been in minority there.
And by the way I never felt any discrimination or discomfort in Armenia. Only, in other countries, after I’ve left.
Well Sevag, I'm not in the dark about the realities of Turkey...I know it all very well, but if it's so horrible, then why are there so many people from Armenia who've moved there? I've met a number of them. Why are they living fairly good lives and why will very few ever return to Armenia? You don't want to say it, but Armenia is no paradise, either. Did you know that in Istanbul alone there are more than 30 Armenian churches, that are wide open, unlocked every day of the week? No one is saying it's a picnic, but come on...Armenians are murdered almost every week on the streets of Moscow... why don't you condemn the Russians? While there's plenty of opportunity for angst about Turkey, there's also alot for Armenians to like about it, the greatest Armenian architect of all time was also one of the most brilliant in history...Sinan... and he was born and lived in Turkey. You can see his works only there and no place else. Of course Hrant Dink was a huge tragedy, but guess what? He loved Turkey...will you condemn him for that, as well?
Avetis -- You know, approximately half of the Artsakh Veterans organizations support Levon Terpetrostein. Maybe they're wrong -- but I don't think such a wide coalition of people, especially our Fidayis, deserve what you seem to be implying: they're davachans.
Ba akhpers, kervokh tkherkel kan mer kokhmits -- gutse irenk dzer chap kan?
May God be with our ARmenian Athletes.. i am sooo ooooooooooo proud to have Armenia being represented in the Olympics.
It is definintely a high honor..
GOOD LUCK and GOD's SPEED
I am very pleased at Johnny Marsbedian’s comments (Feb. 19, 3:09 pm). I think he is very articulate and to the point. I don’t know who Henry Astarjian is, but I would go one step further and say it looks like he is suffering from delusions of grandeur. Before Astarjian engages in his next venomous article to the delight of some, perhaps he should carefully read every word and every sentence of Marsbedian’s comments. This doesn’t mean he should stop writing, however, au contraire, his articles are indeed welcome, but may be he should express his thoughts in a more constructive, cohesive manner.
A few years ago I spent almost a year in Yerevan, and I was in daily contact with locals of all levels, both financial and intellectual. In two occasions I was rightly told to basically ‘get lost’ because I was inordinately critical. The diasporan Armenian proudly expects excellence in his historical homeland, and at times his comments sound harsh and sarcastic to locals. But how many times have we heard “love it or leave it,” or “why don’t you go back to where you came from”? I am putting this to you, Astarjian; how many times have you heard it? Why is it that you smile when you hear these comments, but you frown when they call you ‘akhper’? Incidentally, the word ‘akhper’ is an endearing, sincere expression very similar to the word ‘brother’ commonly used by American Blacks; it is not, I repeat not, derogatory or pejorative. Similar endearing words are usually followed by ‘jan’ thus, akhper-jan or qur-jan or mayrik-jan. I believe Astarjian exhibited his total ignorance of the Armenian language and its delicate intricacies. In the Western Armenian dialect (forgive me if I am calling it a dialect. There is only one Armenian language; that what is written and spoken in Armenia, There are, of course, many dialects, but this is whole ‘nother topic. And no, I am not from Armenia.). So in the Western Armenian dialect there is strong tendency to pronounce several consonants as if they were one. As best I can illustrate is the three D sounding consonants: D, T, (sharp)t, that the Western Armenian pronounces D for all three. B, (sharp)b, and P are pronounced P, etc. KH and GH are pronounced GH by the Western Armenian, therefore Astarjian’s grave mistake in mixing things up and declaring, the locals call the diasporans ‘aghb,’ meaning ‘garbage.’ They do not! Astarjian, Astarjian, “tsavet tanem,” please, don’t be so divisive. Don’t push hatred. If you can’t say something positive, then shut up. There were good reasons for discontent among repatriating Armenians of the late 30’s and the 40’s and the local population. And there are good reasons now for discontent among recent repatriates. Again, go read Marsbedian’s comments about “haughty diasporans,” those that arrived during ‘Nergaght’ in Parisian outfits and white gloves with their caustic remarks when the locals were having one heck of a time putting bread on the table.
Let’s stop biting each other.
As to the very common Yerevan expression ‘tsavet tanem,’ Marsbedian missed the point and got all hepped-up for no reason. It is another endearing, friendly, sincere expression, loosely translating to ‘let me bear your pain,’ which means ‘I don’t want you to feel bad’, or ‘don’t worry’, or … well, I admit it is quite difficult to exactly translate colloquial expressions. Henry Dumanian’s “Yes ku tsavet tanem Johnny Marsbedian jan. Apres AKPHERES” was a genuinely proud, tender, most beautiful expression of his admiration for Marsbedian. (Incidentally, Marsbed means border-guard, an honorable title, and it is more correct to spell it with a Z, Marzbetian. But it is a personal choice.)
As the old bard puts it, Astarjian-jan, “I do not chastise thee because I have thee in hatred, I chastise thee because I love thee.” (I hope I am correct in the quote.)
Let’s say nice things about Armenia.
To the editorial board,
CENSORSHIP = DELETION = FACISIM!! I guess you all love to deny a person's 1st ammendment rights, huh!! Now you have no basis to whine about "censorship" in Turkey! What hypocrites!!!
Henrik jan, do me a favor and carefully read the following essay. If after reading this you still think that the US is the architect of the imposed political process going on between Armenia and Turkey, you must be deaf, dumb or blind...
Exclusive: The Rise Of The New Soviet Union: The ‘Architect’? Putin!: http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.5478/pub_detail.asp
Once again I see that the editorial board has done the very same thing that dashnaks accuse Turkey of doing...censorship. Hello, where is my post? I wrote a nice and concise one a couple of days ago, but as usual, it's been censored and deleted. Can you say "1st ammendment"? This is the United States, not Armenia!! If you continue to censor, I will have no choice but to seek jusitice accordingly. I promise that you won't like the results!! There are legal channels that you haven't even heard of.
Yes shat ban em "jogum."
You have finally exposed your primitive thinking and flawed reasoning. America is definitely not supporting the Protocol process "reluctantly." It seems to be vigorously pursuing ratification. The U.S. clearly thinks this is in its best interest -- somebody in the State Department would have been as wise as you are to see how this is a way for Russia to "assert" its new political/economic power through Armenia. No? Setting aside your distorted version of history, it is clear that Russia 'economic' strength was and has been for a long time founded on weak commodities like oil. Russia is so keen on keeping Armenian markets isolated from the West precisely because it knows its Ladas and what not can't compete with American or European anything. This economic crises has severely weakened Russia. That 2008 agreement between China and Russia on oil proves they are having some 'cash' problems to put it mildly.
The U.S. needs regional stability? Huh? U.S. energy has been fine and nothing drastic has happened in the region to suggest other wise. In fact, the opening of the Armenia-Turkey border and the resolution of the Artsakh conflict gives Armenia more wiggle room to flirt with the West. If the Turkish threat is nullified, the American argument might go, the Armenians will have less need to rely on Russia for support, and will thus be more prone to the U.S. sphere of influence. Doesn't Russia want a closed border to keep those NATO infested Turks and their companies and their diplomats out of Armenia? What exactly is Russia gaining from an open border? Is it being NICE to Armenia? At best it's interfering with the Azeri/Turkey connection, but that plays just as much into America's hands as it does for the Russians. And nobody really even knows if all of this nagging from the Azeris will amount to anything substantive. There is too much at stake for them to get emotional and do something that would jeopardize their entire operation, especially because Aliyev is heading the oil games there. AND LASTLY on this issue, EVEN if this Azeri/Turkish fission DID serve Russia's interests, it would DEFINITELY not serve Armenia's. Who's to say Russia doesn't see Armenia-like control over Azerbaijian as better for Russia than control of Armenia? Who's to say it wont throw all its weight behind the Azeris? They have more resources to serve their interests. As history shows, paron yesaser, the better Turko-Azeri relations are with the Russians, the worse off the Armenians seem to be. Yet another reason to not support the protocols.
Yes, Russia is 'run' by Armenia -- but your pathetic and naive defeatist attitude renders Armenia to serfdom and slavery -- subject to the whims of grand foreign powers, incapable of thinking or acting on its own. If that were the case, Armenia would have never started the Artsakh war -- neither Washington nor Moscow wanted it.
Why is our God-king-master Russia forcing a concession like the "genocide commission"? A little convenient for the Obama administration, isn't it? The sad truth is Russia can convince Armenia to sign "protocols," perhaps, but it definitely cannot convince Turkey to do anything. It cannot project its power against Turkey. Your equation is incomplete. If Russia is projecting its power against the West/Turkey -- how could it convince the Turks to come to the table? And why are the "recognize borders" clauses even in there? That is in no way shape or form related to why the border is closed -- it is an unnecessary concession. The ONLY reason why Armenia and Turkey have a closed border is the NKR war. Solving one will solve the other. Everything else is an unnecessary concession -- a concession that favors TURKEY AND THE WEST. In fact, historical commissions might be against the interests of Russia -- wouldn't Putin want this genocide issue to get in the way of Turkey-America-Israel ties? Why is it giving the West the perfect cover up to let it go? And why are they being "ratified" -- giving Turkey and America time to put pressure on Armenia to "solve" the NKR issue in their favor? Ratification is a joke -- if they really wanted to establish ties, they would just establish ties with no nonsense protocols.
Anyway, have a good night.
Here's a great article from your beloved Jamestown Foundation that I think you would like: It's called "Take a course on geopolitics."
I do agree with Aran, visited Armenia for the first time in 2009, it will be very encouraging to do a tour similsr to this in our homeland, this will improve their hospitality skills, I found they need help to polish their hospitality skills.
A tour like will also expose our children to other Armenians from the world.
And of course the money will stay in Armenia
Elsa
Only those who decided to leave Armenia after living their whole lives in that little country, have the right to criticize it.
Mr. Tourists, it's much better you feel the hardship of 90's on your skin, before you'd ever try to say that you are not treated as equal.
Western comfort is much better, for sure. I come to realize it myself, but only AFTER you have seen and experienced all happening in Armenia by yourself. Stop reading! Take the plane.
Sincerely yours,
Hayuhi
Hye Sevag, abrees. We know the Turks' stances, their leaderships over the years, their convoluted education of their students about Turks' own history, and their treatments of their own enlightened
citizens - which says it all. Turkey is all glitter on the outside, decayed and decaying from within...
In their desparations the leaders jump from one PLOY to another Ploy, bullying, allied with 'allies'/just as quickly "disallied" with 'allies' - over and over. And, the need for the Turk leaders to teach their citizens to hate Armenians - as though the Armenians had committed a genocide against the Turk!
It was the Armenians who were the victims for generations of the Turkish tyranny - into the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation 1918-1923! But strangely, the Turks' need to continue to pursue their policiy of 'eliminating' Armenians... 1890s into today 2010... still in ancient Ottoman bullying mentality.
As the world watches - asking... WHY?
Manooshag
Silly boy, you're funny, your article actually proves my point, read it carefully and juxtapose it to my formula. But knowing that you are a college brat (and a Levinakan to boot), I realize that you're ego is getting in the way of your rational...
Let me try this again: because of recent Russian advances into the Caucasus Baku today is a more-or-less a hostage to Moscow. Moreover, America, that was once whispering sweet-nothings into Baku's ears, is now more-or-less expelled from the region and is reluctantly backing Moscow's regional agenda for the following reason: Moscow's back in charge in the Caucasus. Moscow controls a very large amount of the essential energy entering Europe, Turkey and Israel. Moscow's stronghold in the Caucasus is Armenia...
This is why Washington, London, Ankara and Brussels are forced to swallow their pride, put aside their interests for now, and deal with the Kremlin and Yerevan. As a result of all this, Baku is forced to somewhat distance itself from the West in order to survive in the Moscow dominated region. Baku is simply upset because their 1990s era derived fantasies, when Russians were on their knees and various Western oil corporations were running the political show in the region, is all but over now. However, regardless of how dissatisfied Baku is with Washington, it will nonetheless be more than willing to continue selling its energy to whoever will buy it, be it Europe, America, Turkey, Israel or Russia.
And where do you get the idea that I take any single political think thank like Jamestown seriously? A serious political analysts will monitor all sources be it American, Russian or European and come up with his/her assessment. That fact that you are assuming a single organization should speak for someone is very primitive and amateurish. You Levinites are a funny bunch.
Seriously, monitoring these types of sites for some time now, never in my life have I been this disappointed at our people's collective ignorance and lack of rational thought. How did we ever expect to survive in a dangerous and complicated place like the Caucasus with such a primitive take on the world around us? I guess this is why I rather see an "undemocratic" strongman in office who knows what he is doing when it comes to international relations...
Henrik jan, "krvogh tgheki" hamar razmadash e harkavor - votch qaghaqakan bem... Jogir axpers?
Hamenayndebs "krvogh tgheki" mech lik@ "zibil" ga...
Apres Aramazd. Diasporans do indeed tend to suffer from delusions of grandeur. I far as I'm concerned, those who express sentiments like the ones you and Johnny just did are the real Armenians of today - regardless of where you were born. Too bad not enough Armenians share our Armenia-centric ideology.
and the homeland suffers from a lack of exposure.
The sin for these notoriously famous Protocols are on the shoulders (I'd rather say, in the throat) of Mr. Kocharyan and Mr. Sarksyan, the illegal Armenian Presidents. I am saying 'No' not only to the Protocols, but also to those two terrorists from Karabakh, who are the thieves of the Armenian political power.
Dr. Astarjian, Thank You again for great analysis. But why are You using the Pronoun "WE." I am of course willing to get together into that "WE" with You, with Mr. Stepan Demirjyan, with Davit Shahnazaryan, with Gagik Jhangiryan, with Levon Ter Petrosyan, the first Armenian Prssident. But I feel anxiously terrified, when I think that I can enter the same category with Mr. Sarksyan, de-jure the illegal Armenian President and de facto, an international terrorist, or with Mr. Aghvan Hovsepyan, de-jure, Prosecutor-General, de-facto a European terrorist, or Mr. Radik Martorosyan, de-jure a scientist, de- facto a cheap terrorist, etc. I fear these people more than Turks themselves!
Nodar Kumaritashvilli: Georgian Luger
You gave your place in fastest way.
You went running prone
Returned supine
With hopeless locked eyes.
Olympics is a festival no one should die
The tragedies are tragedies no one can avoid.
If it was man made
Must get punishment.
Man made mistakes
Gave others reward.
Inefficient Hands
Signed your unexpected death!
We are in tears
Can we forget?
Pains remain decades
For every innocent death.
We do pray and say,
“God helps your mother and no one else!”
February 18, 2010
We pray for Armenian Team rewards with a safe return to their city and their beloveds.
These so-called "campaigners" most probably (actually, most definitely) have no clue as to what the protocols mean geopolitically and/or economically. What these peasants are merely interested in is to oppose anything the Armenian authorities propose... It's that simple and that is actually the depth of Armenia's "opposition" today. Nevertheless, if these people and their diasporan sponsors somehow derail the political process (which is highly unlikely), they would only be doing a favor for Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Observing these types of people making demands, I feel as if a significant portion of us Armenian are content with having an impoverished, isolated, insignificant, third world nation on the brink of extinction...
Sireli "Me" and fellow posters:
Skhaladz ek yete ge gardzek vor miyayin zirenk vor Hayasdan abrer en iravunk ounin Hairenikin vijagin yev garavaroutiunin kunatadel.
You are mistaken is you think that only those who have lived in Armenia have a right to criticize the conditions and the government in Armenia.
Vahe
The article was not intended to offer sober analysis, I posted it precisely to show that you take your cues from such skewed and misinformed think tanks. It was SUPPOSE to "prove your point," -- and in doing so prove mine ;).
You keep arguing that America is reluctantly pushing the protocols when that couldn't be further from the truth. They are ACTIVELY and aggressively lobbying for it. And I still don't understand why a Russian backed deal which is going to make Turkey 'kneel' has clauses pertaining to historical commissions, border recognition, and or why does it have to be RATIFIED? Those are unnecessary concessions that Armenia did not have to make, especially since you're saying the West has no choice but to support them. Wouldn't they 'HAVE' to support the protocols even if there was no historical commission or what not? According to your analysis of the geopolitical situation..yes, they would. Furthermore, we know as a matter of fact that these protocols are nothing new -- in fact, they have been offered in their identical form to every single Armenian administration. Thus, they are a Turkish/NATO invention dating back to the mid-1990s. Your pretending as if Russia engineered them. That is factually incorrect. We also know that each previous administration has 'refused them.'
And also, your history and views on international relations contradict each other. On the one hand, you claim this is Russia's 'plan' and, being the dominant player in the region, it is using (see forcing) Armenia to project its own power. Essentially, the Armenians are not in control of the process. Yet on the other hand, you claim Serge Sarksyan has magical wizard like powers and the Republican party is the wisest and most thoughtful political party in Armenia for having initiated th protocols. How can Serge be wise if he really has nothing to do with this? And how can the Republican party be wise if the vast majority of its members are businessmen completely detached from politics and policy making? You really think Muk has the intellectual capabilities to put any of this together? Do you now see how you contradict yourself? It doesn't matter who is in power, you're arguing, they would have to go along with Russia's grand designs (which inadvertently help Armenia) and thus take credit for enhancing Armenia's standing.
Anyway, your flawed view on democracy is sad. It is very characteristic of people who truely and consciouslly support Serge and Kocharyan. Democracy is not just a vote -- an independent judiciary, free press, freedom to organize, freedom to appeal, a diverse legislature, and an executive that draws its power from the people, are all part of 'democracy.' They are democratic traditions and features of democratic poliics. The political, economic, cultural, and intellectual decay of Armenia directly reflects our unfortunate governments. It is by no mistake that young kids today in Armenia want to be mafiosos and bodygaurds. It is by no mistake that 9/10 of the TV shows on Armenia have to do with MAFIAS. If you can't understand how a disenchanted and pessimistic public, no matter how ignorant, is not a good foundation for a state, army, or nation, then I don't know what else to tell you. The fact that the West will be ignoring gross human rights violations in Armenia and give Serge a blank check to do what he wants with the people is disturbing. Your fantastic geopolitical arguments do nothing to counter that.
You seem to go on rants that address none of the questions or counter arguments that your opponents make. I understand you put thought into your writings, and, while it might be amusing, it is ultimately a waste of time. To save you some time (and me), you should make it a point to respond to the ACTUAL points we make and not the ones you IMAGINE we do.
Tom and Nancy
Congratulations on 45 years of marriage! That is a great milestone and something truly worthy of celebration.
Tom's choice of card and delivery is very special. Thank you for sharing it with all of us.
With love,
Judy and Mark Gavoor
Iraq, is a good example. The Soviet Union, is a better one. Afghanistan under the Taliban, another one. The Colonial experiments are others. Georgia, yet another. Armenia was able to muster up the strength to win, not only because of help from the Russians between 93-94, but because our people had a vested trust in the government of the time. (And also, some of the 'garbage' Fidayis you mentioned might have done a few good things too). The Azeris weren't/aren't that lucky.
Good thing REAL Serge and Kocharyan supporters (not just the HyeLur watchers) are so rare in our community. You guys drag down and debase every debate and discussion to the point where -- forgetting all the important issues we face today -- have to argue fundementals like whether or not we even believe in democracy or want it. Sad, indeed.
You know, the first thing I thought of was to write a letter to the editor when I read this article. But since so many of you have offered such thoughtful responses -- somebody else should pen something as a reply. We need to combat this type of thinking as often and as strongly as we can.
Henrik jan, first of all there are no black and white, no right and wrong, no right or left in politics. Your thinking is very rigid. Politics is dirty, fluid and dynamic. Try to think of it as a cross between - chess, robbery, murder and prostitution. Yes, America is reluctantly "actively" pushing the protocols forward because it is afraid of what would happen if Georgia and Iran get drawn into a war and Turkey's, Israel's and Europe's oil/gas from the Caspian Sea region is cut off. It's an attempt to secure energy routes which happen to be under Moscow's umbrella. Its an attemtp to derain a world war if/when another war erupts in the region. Strategic planners in Washington, Brussels and Moscow are basically readying their playing field and not leaving anything to chance.
And it is not by chance that Mr. Sargsyan reached his hand out to Ankara in the spring of 2008 while on an official visit to Moscow - and Gul suddenly decided to visit Armenia in the immediate aftermath of Georgia's defeat in summer of 2008. Everything was planned meticulously by the Kremlin. And the fall guy for all this and the trigger that commenced this agenda was none other than Saakashvili, the idiot child in Tbilisi that fell into Moscow's trap.
Today, in large part thanks to Moscow, Armenia is positioned to benefit from this geopolitical situation.
Regarding the concessions in the protocols: In reality, there were none. I don't know what you are crying about. Actually, Ankara's concern and hangup over the protocols is just that; there were no real concessions on the part of Yerevan. The vague wording of the document which everybody freaked over was simply put there to make the Russian sponsored document a little easier for the military authorities in Ankara to digest.
In real political terms, this was a massive victory for the Armenian side. Our history will someday reflect this. Remember that Turkey closed their border with Armenia as a direct result of Armenia's liberation of Artsakh, and for years they were saying they won't open it up until Armenian forces withdrew... Well, the document they signed in October made no mention of Armenian troops pulling out of Artsakh. The document also did not mention the Armenian Genocide, just some vague "historic commission" that the Armenian high court later specifically stated had nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide... And now everyone is looking at Ankara to make a positive move. Brilliant game of chess by Yerevan.
So, again. Here we have Turkey, a regional military and economic giant, that for twenty years was actively working on isolating and undermining Armenia, forced to swallow its pride and sit at the negotiation table with a tiny, impoverish, landlocked nation that they consider - an enemy. But we Armenians today are so far removed from politics that we foolishly, like pathetic peasants, lamented the victorious signing of the protocols as a black day in our history.
And, in your case: your obsessive and irrational hate for Mr. Sarsgayn and Mr. Kocharyan is clouding your ability to think and see.
I agree with you, Henrik. But we would be fighting a losing battle. Sentiments in this article closely reflect the average diasporan mindset today.
Whenever these books are mentioned, I am interested in reading them. I noticed that Armeniahouse.org has an English and Russian translation of the Blue Book. Why don't they also have a Turkish version. I am going to purchase a copy from amazon.com, although it is available in a free electronic version on the internet from Armeniahouse.org. I also noticed that a website Questia.com for a small monthly fee grants access to James L. Barton's book about the Near East Relief org.
The copy of the book I purchased is better because it includes the many photographs of the victims of genocide which you have to see to understand the magnitude of this tragedy. I hope that these books with the photographs will be made available to the general public for free, if possible, in all languages including Turkish for the Turkish public to read in a version that is acceptable to Armenians as being truthful to translation.
I wish the "Weekly Staff" would investigate articles such as this one before publicising them. For instance, have you checked on PFA's website what was the outcome of the first PFA Forum last year in Yerevan? What kind of important policy recommendations came-out from that "High level Forum" that you describe as: "During the First PFA Forum on the global economic crisis, held in Yerevan on May 25, 2009, PFA brought together an unprecedented line-up of academics and policymakers from Armenia, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine, and the UAE to discuss the implications of the crisis for Armenia and to help devise policy prescriptions to mitigate them".
I wrote them at the time to volunteer and participate or help. There was no reply. I heard of several other people who suffered the same way. Isn't a forum a place where people voice their opinion freely. Is this how PFA wants to have a forum?
Sorry, you can fool people once, not twice!
The Ministry of Truth or Pravda is always putting out its propaganda. I bought all these books in order to follow the cast of characters and find the truth as written down by eyewitnesses and acceptable authorities in order to understand Turkey's propaganda and counter it. It seems they have one story that they stick to in their version of history and which appears in the many posters from Turkey I have followed on Haaretz, JPost and here. Usually, the procedure is to counter propaganda with truth; is this not the purpose of Radio Free America, etc.? At least I know the truth and what to answer in response to the propaganda with reference to authorities that I can cite.
I am surprised that not that many people feel free to counter the propaganda.
The new AGM in Washington, D.C. has that opportunity; to educate the public about the facts of the genocide. I hope they don't come under the pressure Yad Vashem has come under to alter exhibits, etc.; but I am sure they will. They had trouble telling the story about the Nazi Pope without alienating the Vatican; then they had trouble vilifying the Mufti of Jerusalem who cooperated with Hitler to exterminate the Jews before they could come to Israel and found a Jewish state. It is a known fact the Mufti was none too happy with the idea for Jews coming to Palestine and he headed SS groups to exterminate Jews. So I am sure a lot of people will be demanding you alter exhibits . It is the sad truth; however, I recommend you not give in to them.
Thus, I am not surprised the Turkish version of the Blue Book is altered to suit them.
Perhaps Mr. Vahramian should do his own investigations and look at the report that PFA produced on the global economic crisis. It's right on their website. First page, left column.
It would be helpful if we were more constructive with each other, and didn't gripe so much about who didn't invite us or reply to our emails or what not...
Armen Vahramian?! THE PAINTER? What are you doing attending think tank forums? Anyway -- just because they ignored you is hardly a reason for the Weekly to pull this off their site. Haha.
SYLVA PORTOIAN-SHUHAIBER
Analyze Ourselves
Why do we speak about ourselves.
While others don’t speak about themselves?
Are we better than others to guess-speak?
Perhaps say immeasurable things!
How can we know ourselves?
The base is impossible to fi nd.
Who are we? Hence, what do we know?
What have we haven’t done or will do?
How intelligent we think; hence we praise.
Still we do many mistakes.
We analyze others unfairly in endless ways,
Pretend in understanding the human eternal grace.
Even if we study cultures of different races.
Still we’re unable to understand human darkness.
Can be changeable, horrible, favorable, agreeable!
Many manners, every day we’re tired to face.
The best advice, “Leave the unexplained in thy space.”
Mercy on people who can’t explain themselves.
In life: there are endless genes and unmapped races.
It is impossible to analyze each case!
September 13, 2007
From Poetry Collections, "Sons Take My Heart & Transplant"
Thank you Mr. Kalayjian:
I have looked where you say there is a report. Indeed, there is one. It is entitled "IMPLICATIONS OF THE WORLD’S FINANCIAL CRISIS FOR ARMENIA’S ECONOMY", a report gleaned from various IBRD and other UN reports. What is striking though, is that it "pre-dates" this overly important "High Level Forum" which is advertised to have taken place on May 25, 2009. This is what everyone can see is printed on Page two of the report on your website Mr. Kalyjian: December 2008
© 2008 Policy Forum Armenia. Please check yourself. http://www.pf-armenia.org/fileadmin/pfa_uploads/CRISIS_REPORT--FINAL.pdf. If this report was produced in Dec 2008, how could the "an unprecedented line-up of academics and policymakers from Armenia, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine, and the UAE.." have formulated the recommendations therein when they met in May 2009?
Mr. Kalydjian: You are an honorable person, with an honourable Der Hayr father, I am disappointed that you, yourself seem to be participating in this deceit. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Respectfully
AV
Abris Bravo one more time dear Mr. Sassounian!!!! I have been and still am as you are steadfastly and staunchly opposed to these defeatist Protocols!
Your 10 points very well taken and I hope and pray that it shall come true by Turkey by the end of March, and Armenia will refrain from signing these defeatist Protocols.
To John: I agree and appreciate all your comments made to Avetis. Well said John!!!
The most dangerous and damaging attitude we Armenians can express toward Armenia is the attitude of blind support where we only "accentuate the positive". Why is Armenia beyond criticism by Armenians if we see it heading in the wrong direction, maybe even off a cliff? Why should we give it the benefit of the doubt all the time? How long should we wait before we say anything critical? Five more years? Ten more years? We don't live under an Article 301 as the Turks do and most of us in our daily lives are proud to have independent and critical opinions about almost everything. So why should we be afraid to criticize Armenia or the way Armenians do things? We're not so fragile that we can't take the criticism!
And why should we assume that the Armenians of Hayastan are the only Armenians in the world who have a right to have a say in how Armenia develops or what happens to the Genocide issue? I am a diasporan Armenian precisely because of the Genocide, just as many of you are. What the Republic of Armenia does with this issue makes a difference to me as it does to you because the world accepts Armenia's decisions as our own, whether we like it or not. Should we not be concerned about the Protocols and what they do to the veracity of the Genocide and how they position Armenia diplomatically vis-a-vis Turkey and Azerbaijan? How can we show any concern if we are supposed to only "accentuate the positive"?
This is great. To hear the truth about a great cause, as the Arm. Genocide, gives us some hope that after all, justice can, one day prevail.
As a direct result of this horrible act ( Genocide) 1.5 million perished. There is another way of destruction. Today there are thousands of kurds & arabs in Syria, of Armenian origin. They are the descendents of boys lost during the deportations of 1915. They even have their own tribe: The Armenian Moslem tribe! I found about this last may. I have already raised a special report about this issue to poliotical & religeous authorities. These people, lead a marginal life. They remember their fotefathers' epics! Actually they endure eternal martyerdom, from generation to generation. These people deserve much attention!
Is it deceitful to present and discuss and devise economic policy - that you have analyzed in depth and proposed in the form of a REPORT - with a wider audience of experts and government officers at a FORUM?
Again I refer you to the PFA website for this upcoming Diaspora Forum: Looking at the detailed agenda (the link is again on the first page of the website), one can see that PFA will be presenting a REPORT on the Diaspora-Armenia Relations of the past 20 years... BEFORE the Forum actually commences. Shall I expect another email with accusations of deceit later down the road from you, Mr. Vahramian?
Mr. Kalayjian:
I am beginning to wonder whether I am really debating with the Zaven Kalayjian who is listed as a Senior Fellow on the PFA website. That person is a visiting professor in JHU and has an illustrius career and must have some logic.
Let me first answer your question: No what you report is certainly not deceitful.
Now let us go back to what was published by the "Weekly staff" (the article above, which is based on unsollicited emails the PFA has been bombarding us with):
Step # 1: The PFA stated they held a "High Level Forum" on May 25, 2009, to come-up with policy recommendations to deal with the economic crisis.
Step #2: I wrote the Weekly, wondering where those recommendations were. No one had heard of them, certainly not me.
Step #3: you wrote that indeed they had written these recommendations and referred to me a document on their website (on the left side).
Step #4: I replied that that document (which incidentally forecasts that the price of gold would go down after mid-2008 - vid graph page 9) could not be based on the PFA "forum" held in May 2009, since it is clearly identified as produced in Dec 2008.
Step# 5: You are now changing the subject and telling me to look at their second annual forum agenda and look at "Diaspora-Armenia Relations of the past 20 years".... What does this have to do with the "recommendations" for Armenia to deal with the "recent financial crisis"? Are you really Zaven Kalyjian, or am I dealing with someone else, like B. Madoff?
Harganqnerov
AV
Murat, stop blaming this and that peoples for the wholesale murder of Armenians in 1915. Your elementary and mediocre reasoning blaming anything and everything on th Kurds is absurd, to say the least. It was the Turkish government that devised and implemented the Armenian Genocide, period. And no matter how much false information you feed your Western friends, bear in mind that they have no love for your Genocidal tendencies, all they are interested is OIL my friend.
Ferhat
Oh, wonderful, just wonderful.
Yet another conference with endless panels composed of young Armenian "academicians" with advanced degrees (at least in the USA) from pro-US State Department political science and international relations programs where the students and faculty have to be careful not to break certain taboos lest they get thrown out.
Then they go to work for organizations and think tanks like the Council on Foreign Relations, Brookings, Soros, Eurasianet, IMF, World Bank and so on and so forth - all of which are pro-Turkish, and they get co-opted and try to palm off their "policy recommendations" on the rest of us. These academicians are the ones who keep repeating the mantra of those non-Armenians who wish to use and abuse us: "Reconcilation." They all believe that Turkey has "changed" and even if they don't they are careful to keep their views to themselves lest they be regarded by their pro-Turkish colleagues as a - heaven forbid - nationalist.
How did the Armenian community get virtually taken over by these young, know-it-all academicians, huh? Who is pushing this academic gobbledygook on us and why? Money? Career? Self-aggrandizement? Because they don't know else to do with their degrees?
Not even one of these academicians from the Diaspora is what could be considered a hard-nosed nationalist. This is intellectual diversity, academic freedom, and free speech? No, it isn't. It's conformity and defeat.
Mr. Vahramian, I'm glad you agree that it is not deceitful to present economic prescriptions, which have presented in a report, at a forum that is organized to share and discuss ideas. We have a at least a starting point of agreement, and hopefully we can avoid resorting to ad hominem slights.
Let us move now to your substantive objection to this announcement by PFA. You said that you could not find out what was the outcome of the Forum. As you yourself said, a forum is an opportunity for people to voice their opinions freely, a place to hear and to be heard. In that respect, the Forum achieved its goal. This Economic Forum gathered influential and intelligent people together in one place to discuss Armenia's economic options in the face of the global economic crisis. Some might think it a worthy and commendable objective to simply have such a discussion of experts who might not otherwise interact with each other on this level and with the public at large. I hope you are among those people who would appreciate such an undertaking, even though your personal proposal to help/participate was ignored in this particular case.
Nevertheless, I share your expectation that something concrete needs to come out of a Forum. I offered to you, Mr. Vahramian, PFA's published economic report as a substantive example of what was proposed and discussed at the Economic forum - something that you indicated was absent. Apparently, that was unsatisfactory to you simple because it predated the Forum, and therefore did not "come out of" the Forum. At this point, I brought the example of the upcoming Diaspora-Armenia Forum, where a report by PFA will be presented before the commencement of the Forum itself. Since the Report will again predate the Forum (but this time by a matter of minutes), I presumed you would object to it being a product of the Forum even though it contains substantive analysis and proposals that will be presented and discussed in the Armenia-Diaspora Forum. This was not a change of subject, as you misunderstood it to be, but an extension of your own logic to a future event.
Returning to the Economic Forum: even though there was no post-Forum report, or digest, or similar published outcome of the Forum - and I'm sure you agree that a forum does not need such things to be successful - there was media coverage of the Forum. I further refer you to "Forum in the Media," where you may find reports on the goings-on of the Economic Forum, and which post-date the Forum. I trust you will find these media reports more satisfactory, even though they do not come from the Armenian Weekly.
While I believe all the above is clear enough, I expect that you will again have problems with my Hopkins-Visiting-Scientist/PFA-Senior-Fellow logic - not because it is flawed, but because you simply want to say something negative about the people who didn't reply to your emails and your offer to help - the people who "fooled" you once. I'm left to this conclusion because a person of your mental caliber and internet-research abilities should have been able to find the "results" of the Forum without my help - if he really wanted to.
One final point I'd like to make: While your offer to help PFA was a generous gesture, it certainly did not obligate the other party to accept, and I believe there is no basis here for keeping a grudge, let alone labeling the other party "deceitful."
-Zaven (Not-B-Madoff) Kalayjian
Avetis, once again -- you addressed NONE of your contradictions and flawed perceptions of history that I pointed out. What you said in your post, you have said many times over and over again. I get it, there is a credible case to be made as to how the Protocols are in Russia's interests, if not exclusively than in part. I understand that. Thank you. Do you mind answering the above points I made?
And also, you keep preaching to me about how politics isn't black and white, isn't perfect, isn't idealistic -- it's more like prostitution, says the wise old man Avetis. Trust me, no supporter of Levon Ter-Petrosyan has any delusions about corruption or politics. I know better than you do what Levon and his gang took, who took it, how much they took, when they took it, which pocket they put it in, and which door they used to leave with. It is from this fundamental understanding that politics is corrupting and immoral that I draw my allegiances and partisanship from.
Did you just seriously accuse me of irrational hate for Kocharyan and Sarksyan? If anybody has been blinded by HayLur propaganda, it's you and the like my friend. The fact is, between 1991-1998 -- under the LTP administration, the Armenians gained their first (hopefully) lasting republic by becoming the FIRST state to break away from the Soviet Union (and peacefully nonetheless). The Armenians won their FIRST WAR with no asterisks or footnotes attached. Armenia began registering a 1% increase in GDP right when the war ended (since 1994, Armenia's GDP has gone up 1% every year, contrary to what you believe, Kocharyan did not preside over a time of economic prosperity, Armenia's growth had been happening for sometime now). And Armenia was ranked among the top three or four democratic countries in the entire ex-Soviet space. He was also right about many things -- including how the Dashnaks would be crooks, how Vazgen Manukyan would be a sellout, how we shouldn't invest hope or trust into the Spyurk, how we need to be a state-centered nation, not a nation-centered state, how we need to establish relations with all our neighbors to survive in the geopolitical arena. Hmm...come to think of it, you're starting to sound like him.
The only irrational and delusional people who need to 'take courses' on anything are people who believe his Jewish wife has been funding his campaigns with international Jewish finance. Really, Avetis -- have you run out of people to scorn that you have to attack a 70 year old woman? People who need 'courses' are people who oversimplify the internal politics of Armenia to phrases like "Levon Petrostein." If I'm not mistaken, it was his administration that invited the Russian army to monitor the the Turko-Armeno-Persian border, thus firmly planting Armenia on the Russian side of the new silent Cold War. It was also under his administration that Russia tilted her support to Armenia, thus helping us win the war. Nor has he shown any hints or willingness to be the 'puppet' of the West, beyond promising to bring in 'democratic' reforms. If anything, as helpful Russia has been -- we have been too reliant and we need to engage the other power centers of the world. Something I think we were doing in the 90s and something which we have stopped doing since Kocharyan came to office. His support base and network of supporters are the old HHsH folk -- oh yeah, I see a lot of Jews in there! And lastly, you claimed all our problems that we face today in Armenia (we seem to face problems of democracy and freedom -- as far as you're concerned you don't even consider those problems) stem from his 'gang of thugs.' Well, if we were to apply that line of thinking and logic to Levon's period -- we could easily blame all our problems like corruption, abuse of power, lack of democratic freedoms, etc. on the PREVIOUS Soviet regime. Can't we? In fact, that seems to make more sense. Of course, Armenia as made giant leaps in all fields from the Soviet regime to 1998. If the goal of our leaders is to take Armenia a little forward -- then Levon clearly did his job. In what areas has Armenia gone forward since 1998, exactly? In fact, in all fields, it has gone BACKWARD.
And don't remind me about your crazy conspiracy theory about Levon being against the war that he helped start, and trying to sabotage it. (And also, the great logic loop-hole in your argument which forgets that Serge was a HIGH RANKING member of the LTP cabinet).
Your continued and obsessive hatred for this man is a typical Armenian syndrome that tries to belittle and chip away from the accomplishments of our greatest contemporaries.
Talk about delusions. Too bad too -- I was beginning to think you were a serious person.
Anyway, I hope this is the last time I have to address the LTP issue with you Avetis. My public challenge to any and everybody to debate this issue still stands.
And I hope you can understand that democracy and the empowerment of the People of the Homeland is the only way we are going to move forward. I no longer want to be part of a nation that "survives." I want Armenia to become the dominant player in the region on all fronts -- democracy, technology, militarily, and culturally/intellectually.
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Vartabedian,
Congratulations on your 45th wedding anniversary! Thank you so very much for sharing your open love letter with all of us to enjoy. May you continue to enjoy all of God's blessings together for many more years to come. You are both wonderful role models for those of us who also look forward to experiencing such beautiful family milestones.
xoxo,
Claudia and Hagop Antranigian
Other cultures around the world take great pride in the various dialects and accents used by their compatriots....they cherish them....while Armenians seem to always insist that one is more correct and proper than any other...and that theirs is closest to the 'real' Armenian. It's amusing entertainment for a little while, but please folks...grow up. Russian has now eclipsed Turkish as the invasive language, due to historical trends. That means, fewer and fewer of us will be exposed to the language of our grandmothers, with its distinctive Turko-Armenian twang, only to be replaced by the truly foreign tones of the Slavic tongue and local phrases and pronounciations of Caucasian Armenians.
Henrik jan, I don't like debating obvious matters such as whether or not the sun rises in the east... As such, I don't like debating the obvious fact that Levon and his gang of criminals represent everything we today hate about our republic. The fact is, we've seen this group operate once, and considering what they did then - once was more than enough. One must be a total idiot (no other word to describe them) to wish them back again. As bad as they may be, thank God for Kocharyan and Sargsyan.
Efendi Karekin,
I’ll take the “Slavic twang” over the disgusting Turkic-Islamic-Semitic language our ancestors spoke any day. The fact of the matter is, when spoken properly, in other words real Armenian and not the bastardizes crap we Western Armenians were raised on, Armenian is a close relative of Slavic languages.
Also for your information, the most “invasive language” in Armenia today is not Russian but English, the language of the destructive forces of globalism.
Hye Armenian Relief Society (ARS). From the ashes of the Turkish Genocide of our Armenian nation,
our Armenian women, volunteers over these 100 years, created an organization which until today is
in support, and giving aid, and more, first to our Survivors as they fled their Haiastan to the civlized nations they reached. There to learn to live in these new cultures, to marry, to have children who then, together with their Survivor grandparents and parents continued to pursue Hai Tahd. Too, spread the world over, but one in spirit, one in heart, even into today. So many of their names I recall, all fine women, selfless and strong in their determinations to be a source for our people in need... for these 100 years! You are a proud origanization formed for us by our Survivors - and they
today, know of your proud destiny, for all these years!
So then comes along a Michael Harutunian, whining. He who was with the ARF, who was with the Prelacy of the Armenian Church, until... as I saw it, he became successful. Seems success does change one's thinking.
He needed to be with those who, like himself, as the expression goes- he'd "made it"
He figured that the ARF, later the ANCA, were going to be the losers - why stay with losers?
He didn't foresee our Armenian spirit - our ;patriots which we followed
He didn't foresee the grassroots of the Armenians - a priceless force for Hai Tahd
He didn't foresee that the intelligencia and dedication of the generations from the ARF Survivors would continue to pursue and carry their forbears goals further and further over many years...
No easy task...
He didn't think... he just got angry because he chose the wrong road... and so he whines today.
But Michael, don't feel bad - even here in USA we do vote for the wrong politicos...
Manooshag
Ms. Gavoor,
The Weekly is an ARF publication. The ARF is a socialist party (something it seems to have forgotten...). So, please do not be shocked if and when people writing for this organ take up a leftist position.
Regards,
A Leftist
Dear Harut,
Your article really leaves the impression that you've changed your position re the protocols; even your response to “Anon” above, says so: “The Protocols were clearly in Turkey’s interest!” What has changed? Why aren't (as opposed to were) they in Turkey's interest anymore? If your response will be the Armenian Constitutional Court's decision, I think you'll agree with me that it doesn't change the protocols, so long as the Court's decision's main points are not included in the ratification instrument by the Armenian parliament.
Anyway, I'm glad you "remain steadfastly and staunchly opposed to these defeatist Protocols!", but with this article, that's not the impression of some here in Armenia.
I believe the only reason Turkey is not willing to ratify the protocols in a "the timely progression," is not because they were "forced to make a series of unsubstantiated claims, exaggerating the benefits of the protocols to both Azerbaijan and Turkey," nor because "The Turkish and Azeri public was not fooled by Ankara’s misrepresentation of the protocols," but rather because they have a lot of other, more pressing issues on their plate right now (internal and external Kurdish issues, problems with the army, constitutional changes, etc.), and because the AKP government is steadfast in its announced policy of not establishing diplomatic relations with Armenia and not lifting the blockade, so long as the Karabagh issue is not resolved to their satisfaction. This is a policy declared by Erdogan before, during and after the signing of the protocols. I don't agree with your "ten points," because if I do, then I'll have no reason to be against these protocols. I think in their present form, that is as they were signed on October 10, 2009, the protocols are against Armenian interests and benefit only Turkish interests. Turkey will never get anything better, ever. For Turkey, establishing relations with Armenia is not a priority, but keeping the process running is; that's why Armenia should tell the world that because of Turkey bad faith approach this process has failed and there's no reason for anyone to wait for Turkey's next move any longer.
LET'S HEAR IT FOR THE HYPOCRITICAL VIOLATORS OF THE 1ST AMMENDMENT!!! WAY TO GO EDITORIAL BOARD!!! You've single handedly demonstrated the ultimate hypocrosy...DOUBLE SPEAK!! Now none have a basis to claim censorship in any form in Turkey when you commonally practice the very same thing here!! Oh BTW, I'm in the process of filing with certain government agencies! You keep forgetting that this is not Armenia but the UNITED STATES of AMERICA!!!
Pardon my ignorance but I am certain Mr. Mensoian (or someone) could define " Hai Tahd" for me. I have asked the same question to the Armenian National Committee but have not yet received a reply. Since subscribing to The Armenian Weekly, I come across the words "Hai Tahd" often. I speak Armenian so I know what it means. The English translation I've seen is the "Armenian Case." I also know that it is related to the Genocide and the quest for justice...reparations... But I don't know if the ARF has a written statement or a platform that clearly outlines the specific goal(s) or vision of "Hai Tahd." Thank you,
Armenians by now must realize that both sides of the aisle have disappointed us with respect to genocide recognition. One thorn in ourt side has moved on ( Democratic Rep John Murtha). Republican Representative Dan Burton, I'm sure, will speak against any efforts for recognition. It must be noted that Burton has threads to Turkey. I think a good counterpoint in our argument is the upcoming centennial year of the horrific destruction of the indigenous natives of the Ottoman Empire.
Amen.
I agree that very often Mr. Yegparian's very opinionated pieces do not resonate with the Armenian world in general, and the Armenian community in America in particular.
As a life long Dashnaktsakan hamagir, it's my opinion that the ARF has undermined itself enough as a result of its pigheaded and narrow minded approach it took regarding the protocols. The best thing the ARF could do at this point in time is to admit its blunder, rejoin the government, and try to exploit the promising geopolitical situation in the Caucasus today in Armenia's favor.
This is a sincere question. Can you explain to me both on a scientific and anecdotal terms what the Levon gang DID, and how is what Kocharyan did/Serge is doing better/different? I mean in terms of personalities, government organization, policies, etc.
(I just realized I've never had any Serge/Kocharyan supporters explain it to me. I've heard your above argument, but I've never heard the necessary follow-up. This would definitely help.)
Mr. Kalayjian:
Now that we have established that you are the Zaven (Not-B-Madoff) Kalayjian, listed as a Senior Fellow on the so called “Policy Forum Armenia” website and that you seem to be writing on their behalf, let me welcome you to the ‘Free Forum’ offered by the “Armenian Weekly”, a forum where everyone, including YOU, have always been welcome.
You said in the post above, that you hoped we could “avoid resorting to ad hominem slights.” Yet you slander me by assuming that my purpose in writing to the Armenian Weekly is “…simply want to say something negative about the people who didn't reply to your emails and your offer to help”. I would have thought that the son of a preacher would have known that ‘slander’ is a sin in the Armenian Church. Could it have occurred to you that perhaps my purpose is to warn the Armenian Weekly staff and readers about the unfortunate experience, I, and others I know of, suffered when they tried to participate in the first PFA forum, so that they would know what may to expect should they contact you. But perhaps, as I can see from the sarcastic way you refer to the Armenian Weekly in your text just above (“even though they do not come from the Armenian Weekly”), you do not have much respect for us. I am beginning to wonder whether you and Mr. David Grigorian (the head Honcho of the PFA) actually knew that I am issued from a long persecuted (in Soviet times) Dashnak family and hence my offer/request to participate was ‘ignored’. My conclusion is based on your unapologetic statement that “it certainly did not obligate the other party to accept”. Mr. Kalayjian, we have been bombarded by emails from PFA advertizing a ‘forum’ on May 25, and there is no obligation for you to accept us! Really?
Mr. Kalyjian, please stop beating around the bush. My two main reasons for writing to the Armenian Weekly are still to:
1) warn Armenians that perhaps not everybody is welcome at this so called “forum”, since I obviously wasn’t (no apology needed, I am proud to be a Dashnak);
2) point to all people who care about our nation that although you have advertised that you held a first forum “to discuss the implications of the crisis for Armenia and help devise policy prescriptions to mitigate them” you did not care enough to disseminate these policy prescriptions on your own website. As a matter of fact, you did not even post on your website any of the presentations made by the “unprecedented line-up of academics and policymakers” that the PFA brought together for that Forum. Yah, you posted some photos !! Was that a Barahantess you held?
Mr. Kalayjian: In your first reply, you wrote (and it is still up here for all to see) that indeed you (PFA) had posted the policy recommendations resulting from this “High Level Economic Forum” on your website. It turned-out you were, to put it mildly, wrong. The document on your website, as I pointed out giving you the weblink, pre-dates the so-called forum. Now you are telling me that these policy recommendations were actually conveyed through the ‘media’. Nice job!
For nearly two decade, the US State Department acted in the most counterintuitive and self-destructive manner in its foreign policy towards Armenia.
The routine goes something like this: Turkey blockades Armenia for 17 years, the US State Department puts additional pressure on Armenia to capitulate.
The International Association of Genocide Scholars repeatedly calls on Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, the US State Department fires its ambassador to Armenia for uttering the word genocide.
The International Monetary Fund evaluated Armenia's loses due to Turkey's hostile border closure at the tune of $750 million per year; the US State Department lowers US "aid" to Armenia every year to the current meager $40 million.
Armenian-Americans advise the US State Department on the importance of integrating Armenia in the regional economies to ensure stability in the region; the US State Department responds by isolating Armenia and funding the Baku-Tibilis-Ceyhan pipeline by-passing Armenia.
Armenian-Americans advise the US State Department not to fund the construction of Kars-Tiblisi railroad, and instead use the existing Kars-Gumri-Tiblisi railroad; the US State Department ignores Armenia.
Armenian-Americans advise the US State Department not to lift section 907 regarding US weapons to Azerbaijan; the US State Department does the opposite, bolstering Azerbaijan war threats in the region.
Instead of sympathizing with the plight of Armenians leaving the country to seek economic survival; the US State Department pressured Armenia to cut off trade with the Islamic Republic of Iran; yet the same US State Department could not prevent Turkey (a staunch NATO ally) from increasing its trade with Iran.
Armenia is grateful to the Russian Federation for its investments in Armenia; and is appreciative for the protection of Armenia’s borders with Turkey.
Armenia is most appreciative to the Islamic Republic of Iran for its steadfast support throughout the years and for the energy projects in Armenia (gas, oil, hydro-power stations, railroad and highway, trade imports/exports).
What has the US State Department done to influence Armenia to the West? (besides Genocide, TARC and Protocols)? The answer is clear. Zippo.
The Weekly is the organ of an Armenian Socialist party. Dashnaktsutiun was publishing Marx and Engles over a hundred years ago and it's still a member of the Socialist International. Perhaps you should subscibe to some right wing bourgeois ramkavar paper.
Long live Armenia!
Long live Socialism!
Long live Dashnaktsutiun!
Your's Truly,
Samuel Fine
Guys:
This idea may not be very 'Armenian' but I often think of this.
How would life be like today? if the USA or Canada or Australia, would have carved out, many years ago, a small bit of land for Jews and Armenians and perhaps a few other victim nations, so that we would have our own country? then the conflict areas, atleast geographically, could be abandoned for the Islam to suffer in...to do what they please! No help for murderous people should be offered. They can live in their own misery! I believe you all know what I mean by the geographical territories.
Large countries like Russa are able to take care of themselves. I guess?
After I think this silly, unacceptable thoughts, I also realize that 'hey? we were there centuries before you guys...so what right do you have to march in plunder, steal our land, men and women and children' If my neighbour walks in and kills me and takes over my house? does this mean my house is legally his property? Absurd! Ofcourse not!
No nation really came to our rescue in 1915-1920. They all 'talked' but talk is cheap. England admitted it at the time...that they should have dealt with the Osmanian Empire more harshly! But they didn't!
I believe that the greatest, and un accountable, unknown loss, is the thousand of people who were stolen, sold, enslaved and brought up as Turks. Even Sultan Hamid's mother may have been Armenian? I don't know if this is true or false but it has been questioned in the writings I have recently read.
Yes, the ARF has always been the one looking after our nation. There is no way they should buckle now.
LONG LIVE THE ARF AND THE MARTYRS WHO DIED FOR THE 'HYE TAHD'! for 150 yrs.
ARF always fail. ARF is the Failure story.
People - who do you think has kept and ensured our survival for thousands of years????? Armenians who live on the land of Armenia! These Armenians are the ones who fought the Persians, Arabs, Mongols, Turks, etc., not the ARF. ARF has only existed for 100 years. The ARF does and has done good things, but they are not the all-saviour of the Armenian people. The people of Armenia are the ones who suffered and kept Armenia as Armenia. Where were we (Diasporans) during the dark period of Communism and the liberation of Karabagh? We provided our moral support, yes, but it's the Hayastantsiz who KEPT THE LAND!
Dr. Astarjian*: (astar and not a star)
Are you turning against your beloveds?
They had and have enough to think about.
Do you want to cause them more pain?
They had enough from Stalin and new rivals.
And for what…!
To make your self happy
While your real brothers’… in cry.
All ‘us’… will die.
We’re nothing but standing woods.
We will fall soon turning ashes.
Please send to your brothers
Flowery phrases and not insults!
I don’t think you can remember me
But I do remember you very well.
I was half of your age when you entered medical.
I was then only primary school student.
Every Armenian was proud of you,
But I felt even at that young age
You were hubris* and now you are entering another stage.
I think you can define your self, better than ‘I’!
February 21, 2010
__________________________
* Henry Astarjian, MD
** Hubris: tunelessly proud
Berge,
"Armenian-Americans advise the US State Department not to fund the construction of Kars-Tiblisi railroad, and instead use the existing Kars-Gumri-Tiblisi railroad; the US State Department ignores Armenia"
No United States funds are being used to fund the Kars-Tblisi-Baku rail line. Azerbaijan is the banker.
"Instead of sympathizing with the plight of Armenians leaving the country to seek economic survival; the US State Department pressured Armenia to cut off trade with the Islamic Republic of Iran; yet the same US State Department could not prevent Turkey (a staunch NATO ally) from increasing its trade with Iran."
The United States does not inhibit free trade between Armenia and its southern neighbor.
I could go on, however look elsewhere to find the real culprit why the Armenian Holocaust will not get recognized in America. Start with the IMF and ask yourself why Israel began modifying their Mediterranean refineries in Haifa and Ashdod before the shovels hit the dirt for the BTC pipeline. Now where will they be getting get their feedstocks? Also here is an article that might lead you to the real culprit.
Oil Refineries in $900M financing plan
Company signs agreement in principle to receive $600 million in financing from syndicate of banks in bid to implement its strategic plan, service other capital needs for four years
//
Oil Refineries said on Sunday it secured a $900 million financing framework to implement its strategic plan and service other capital needs for four years.
As part of the framework, the company signed an agreement in principle to receive $600 million in financing from a syndicate of banks, led by Bank Hapoalim, Israel's second largest bank.
In addition, the US Congress approved a $300 million backing from the Export-Import Bank, to finance equipment to be purchased outside of Israel.
The financing plan was approved by the company's board mainly to fund its $500 million hydrocracker project as well as refinance its debt.
The hydrocracker, expected to be operational in the first half of 2012, will produce mainly diesel and jet fuel. It will enable the production of more distillates with higher added-value from every barrel of oil.
"This is the largest investment plan being undertaken in Israel this year, strengthening not only the company but the whole Israeli economy," Oil Refineries Chairman Yossi Rosen said in a statement.
//
He said the company was well positioned to start receiving natural gas after investing $45 million in preparations.
"The recovery of the global economy will be a key factor in driving increasing demand," Oil Refineries Chief Executive Yashar Ben Mordechai said. "ORL is preparing itself to maximize on this opportunity."
Oil Refineries, Israel's biggest refinery, is controlled by holding company Israel Corp.
Reuters
Published:
02.08.10, 15:19 / Israel Business
Funny how these development projects that were run by the West is now being undertaken by the "emerging markets" nations like India. Kudos to them.
Sireli every body:
Mr. Mensoyan mentions lost Armenians in Turkey. That's a very tragic fact, indeed. But let me tell you all, that there are such armenians in Syria too. Last spring I paid a visit to Hasake-Kamishli area. There I met children and grandchildren of very young armenian boys and girls, 5-10 yrs old at the time. Under unspeakable conditions these were left by their parents just in order to have them saved from starvation and massacres. Mrs. Saadie, Movses Tirakian's (Moussa al Armani) daughter, or Hovhanness Hekimian's s0n Mihran( Mohammad Mahmoud) of Mush, and then Abdalla Mustafa, son of Nazareth Chorbajian of Tomarza... They all remember the plights of their fathers. They keep the knowledege of their Armenian identity, but!!!
Some of these Armenians which live as kurds 0r bedouins, have organized themselves into a tribe: Armenian Moslem Tribe. This was founded in 1998, in order to defend their interests. The whole area is a tribal one. If you don't have a tribe to back you, then you are just no one!
The members of this tribe number just only 25,000. May be more than that number remain outside the tribe! Some carry double names. E.g. Mohammad-Garo and Ahmed Sako (twin sons of Abdallah Moustafa). Hovhanness Hekimians( Mahmoud) grand-grand daughters are named: Nanor, Nairi, Armine & Menar. What future awaits these girls?
The tribe is spread over a large area in villages and small towns. They have lost language, fatih but still maintain that the blood in their arteries & veins is ARMENIAN!
Thes people deserve some sort of attention!
For myself, I have begun writing a book about them. Also, I presented a special report about my findings, to different authorities, religeous and political.
Then sireli Dr. S. Jeshmaridian,
May I kindly ask you that are you really saying the Jeshmarid thing? Does your belief satisfy you?
George J. Apelian
Ainjar, Lebanon
Armenians took part in the first Olympics. Zareck Couyoumdzian in 1906 played on the Smyrna Football Team which won a silver medal (Smyrna was then part of Turkey) in Athens; Vahran Papazyan (only 13 years old) took part in Athletics (he was born in Uskudar, Istanbul and was affiliated with Robert College. In 1912, in Stockholm, Vahran Papazyan and Migir Migiryan took part in Athletics on behalf of the team for the Ottoman Empire (Turkey).
Although Robert College encouraged athletics for their students as a way for them to interact and get along in spite of their differences, and the Trustees also gave money to the YMCA where young local boys could take part in athletics, they were not happy about the Olympics where nationalism arose and nations were competing against each other.
Michail Dorizas, the best athlete to come out of Robert College, won a silver medal for the javelin throw in 1908 as a member of the Greek Olympic Team.
Berge - you hit every nail right on the head. Very good summary. The question every American Armenian should ask is why? Why is the entire policy so anti-Armenia? Of course, I have several theories, but would like to hear what others have to say.
Well...just on a realistic note. The ARF is least likely to bring about any change in Armenia because it is considered to be a faux-opposition, pro-government, deranged fringe party (this is just Armenia we're talking about here). It's top leaders are not trusted by any considerable portion of the populace. Even with all their connections, Yerkir Media outlets, and tons of Diaspora-networking, the last election brought the ARF no more than 6% of the vote -- and that was up against the likes of Levon and Serge. Our partisanship aside, this is just what the statistics and elections show.
You have just about the same support as does the Green Party in America. In fact, the ARF probably has the best name-marketing of any party (Dashnaktsutsyun, no?) throughout the Armenian world and especially Armenia. You also have an ideological platform (most parties in Armenia don't). And, unlike the Green Party, there is really no organized effort to try to block out your voices and ideas. In fact, the world is your stage. But even with all of that...your support is dismal at best and pathetic at worst. Until you address the "why don't people like us" issue with some honesty (and stop giving the excuse that Hayastantsis are ignorant communists and the ARF is too far ahead of them), you won't be able to accomplish anything -- let alone something on the scale that you're talking about. Sorry guys!
Although -- some soul searching would be good for the party, it's good for any political force.
My last question was for Avetis.
Dear Robert: Freedom of speech means the editor can edit (censor) what he wants. Freedom of speech, the first amendment means freedom of religion, assembly, speech, to petition the govt. We do not live in a totalitarian country. Freedom of speech (freedom of the press) means the editor can EDIT (chose what he wants to show up in his newspaper).
Only totalitarian regimes like those in Orwell's "1984" rewrite history to reflect the unreality (big lie) they want their people to believe rather than reality; hence the purpose of the Ministry of Truth is to rewrite and rewrite again until the truth is lost forever. This was based on his knowledge of the soviet union (remember "Pravda"); yet this is the practice of all totalitarians govts.
Dear Robert: Beating up and killing journalists (if those are the "legal" channels you are speaking of are the ones we all heard too much of). And don't forget the penal code in Turkey which punishes anyone for speaking out the truth about the Armenian genocide is censorship which does not allow freedom of speech under the laws of Turkey.
People shouldn't live in fear and intimidation to speak out.
Freedom of speech in the USA means the editor can EDIT his own newspaper.
How come Arm. Weekly keeps removing my posts here, while Robert, a staunch anti-Armenian and anti Tashnag has his posts printed? Strange, is there a conspiracy going on again here?
Anyways, here is the latest trick perpetrated from Turkey:
To hasten their integration into the European Union, Turkey's intelligence agencies fabricated this "coup d'etate" spectacle. This is all "phony." The arrest of 50 plus generals is a ruse to make Turkey's acceptance into the European Union faster and easier. It is like telling Europe that if they are not accepted, the generals will take over our country.
So, once again, Turkey comes out way ahead of all, including the Western countries, the USA and Armenia.
Ferhat
Hye, our Armenian leaders of today, the inept leaderships at the fore now for several administrations, sadly, not astute politically to lead the fledgling nation of Armenia, not sharp enough to deal with the likes of a Turkey whose 'alliances' - and more - change as with the weather. But then all nations who have to deal with a Turkey have learned to recognize the slippery-slide when dealing with the Turkish leaderships - the Ottomans and later, the subsequent leaderships (still in the Ottoman mentality/modes) who use PLOY after PLOY after PLOY to accommodate their changing, unreliable projects/alliances. These PLOYS are indicative of their desparation... as they are within,
decayed, decaying - and more! Turkey glitters on the outside/ Turkey is failing their citiizens inside.
The only hope for the civilized Turkish citizens is for these leaderships be removed totally - as was the Nazis of Germany - to be able to become a true democracy and ONLY then to join the civilized nations of the world... as a true democracy.
It's about time that the Los Angeles Times Newspapers stopped using the word alledged on the well documented Armenian Genocide of 1915-1923 by the Turkish Government. We thank Garen for working with the Times on this important issue for the Armenian Nation. People should know why our Genocide has been put aside and that is because the Turkish Government is using five Jewish Organizations to do their dirty work, whom control the State Dept. and tell the President what to do. The worlds people must wake up to the truth of what happened to one of the worlds oldest nations whom lived in the center of Europle & Asia and every conquering power has devastated this powerless people whom has no friends in the world.
Hye, Jesmaridian, I recommend to you to read Theodore Roosevelts writings, especially his
IN THE AREA - and then, and only then, it is possible that you shall learn what you lack now...
To be IN THE ARENA, to be there - when you are right, when you are wrong, but doing your
utmost ... despite the know-it-alls... depite the Jesmaridians...
You shall learn from Theordore Roosevelt, a president of the USA
Manooshag
P.S. This shall be printed frequently, to remind the naysayers... AND to give thanks to those who are
IN THE ARENA.
Agreed, The A.R.F. is the only organization to push the Armenian for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide. All other organizations, instead of working together with the A.R.F. are laxed on this issue. However, at the same time, the A.R.F. must make changes to our way of thinking and come out with new effective goals to get Washington, the State Dept., Congress, & Senate to recognize the facts of life. The following are some suggestions that could help: l. A mass demonstration in Washington, DC. 2. A dialogue with the five Jewish Organizations that are being paid by the Turks to not recognize our Genocide. 3. To have full page adds in all newspapers in all cities where there are Armenians all over the country to educate people on this disatrious first Genocide of the 20th century. 4. To update the "The Deeds of the Turks" that shows all the Massacres & Atrocities they have committed from B.C. to date. These are only a few suggestions that can be done not counting what our non-Armenian friends could do to help.
hy, robert the turk, you complain that one of your 'writing' has not been published here. I'm just as certain that if Armenians were to 'comment' similarily to any Turk media... nothing, shall ever appear - or fears would prevent Armenians even attempting such communications! As our Hrant Dink...
Manooshag
Hye Berge Jololian,
- AAA is predominantly and mostly compirsed of memberships of the highly successful and wealthy Armenians - those who need and seek the 'society' of being with others as with themselves. And deservedly so...
- ANCA is predominantly and mostly memberships of our highly successful and wealthy Armenians
who seek to be numbered amongst those of our GRASS ROOTS of our Armenian Diasopora - those whose support - even the $10 check has always had greatest meanings to the ANCA efforts - to be able to join with the GRASS ROOTS efforts - to be a participant in their efforts for Hai Tahd, in their efforts for Haiastan.
Priceless!
Manooshag
Freedom of the press in the US is the freedom to keep people in the dark.
Such as omitting coverage, use of subversive language, strategic misrepresentation, etc,...
Comment to Vatche,
You're quite right about not falling in the trap of "blind support". I say, criticise all you can as long as it is constructive. My messages were directed at the negative and pestilential repetition of tired platitudes and the accompanying attitudes, which do no service to us other than to drive a wedge between the "us and them" and eventually tear apart.
You have some concerns and perhaps even anger stemming from the selling out of the key principles in our dealing with the Turks. I am no patsy for the current heads of government in Armenia.
But to presume that you should have a say in how things are governed in Armenia, well it is simple, become a citizen, live there, and then you can have a say. I would except the genocide though. While land issues can be uniquely a RoA and Turkey issue, the genocide has broader implications, namely the victims who do not live in the RoA.
But how do you get reasonable and democratic representation from a diaspora spread all over the world and torn by a wide array of differences from the petty to the less than petty ! I don't have a good solution except to perhaps demand that RoA leadership collaborate and consult with the diaspora. But the leadership in the RoA do not even reflect the popular sentiment in Armenia to even aspire to honestly represent the diaspora. Yes brother! we are before a dilemma.
However, seeing the issue of the protocols as an RoA versus diaspora struggle is the worst kind of trap we as a nation can fall in. (I am sure the Turks cannot stop laughing). The fault lies in both parties, a diaspora that is too often represented by its most vociferous and militant element, and an RoA leadership that is corrupt, visionless and a docile citizenry who are unable to dispatch the criminals to their fate.
This brings up the core issue of democracy or rather the lack of it, afflicting both the RoA and organizations in the diaspora. Neither the Tashnaks nor any of the other purported representatives are very prone to democracy. If we don't have a tradition of democracy, then as a nation we are due what we get. Your popular voice will be drowned out but the louder ringing of the cash in the ears of the few. Woe be the nation that breeds idolators !
So Vatche and others, first you have to forsake the politics of anger, and then embark on a constructive endeavour of fostering openness, educating rather than lecturing, and hopefully we can inch a little closer to forming a more cohesive nation. Along the way we may even purge the parasites...
I must admit that I have a difficult time understanding why the ARF oppostion party opposes everything! Armenia wants the protocols. Armenia needs the protocols. Should they fail, will Armenia be blamed? Who stands to make political hay if they do? Certainly not Armenia.
If the protocols fail, the light from the west will grow even dimmer.
It is a fact that andrew jackson was a freemason and belonged to the Presbyterian church. That has nothing to do with his signing of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which resulted in the full scale genocide of the Native Indians. Are Presbyterian responsible for the Native Indian's Genocide? No, all Americans are responsible, regardless of when they came to this country.
It is also a fact that hitler was born in Austria. should Austria pay compensations to Israel?
Many countries and groups had direct and indirect interests in wiping out the Armenians from that part of the world, such as Germany and Kurds. maybe a group of Jews did also. But that doesn't mean they should be or could be recognized as criminal parties under international law.
In any genocide the whole infrastructure of the government is involved. And always in the society the potential for it, has already been built up over at least a few decades.
I think it's best to ignore people like christopher bjerknes, since their reasoning is false. But we should never shy away from facts. Specially historians should not be intimidated by being labeled as "ani-semitic".
Yes, major figures amongst the young tucks were Domme and/or freemasons. So what?!?
If christopher bjerknes works under a popetier, and this whole thing is part of a game or a trap, we should not play their game, because no matter what, it will be a lose-lose situation for us.
Dear friends, Iwould like you to send me more information about your organization. If it is possible, iwould like to be regisrterd in . Thank you in advance> Gayane
Avedis...it sounds like you've never studied the history of languages. If you had, you'd learn that Armenian is not a close relative of the Slavic languages...it is probably closest to proto-IndoEuropean from about 7000 years ago, and has loan words from many, including Urartian, Hittite and old Persian, yet occupies a very individual and unique place on the tree of languages. The fact that various communities adopted local words or developed a dialect is not and should not be a problem, since there is nothing 'pure' about any language, including Armenian, be it classical or colloquial. Purity is a myth, just like Noah's ark and the Easter bunny. It doesn't exist.
Efendi Karekin, been there, done that; you don't need to teach me about Indo-European languages... Deal with your Turkophile comments. Real/proper Armenian, not the Turco-Islamic crap Western Armenians speak today, in closer to Russian than it is to your hogeharazat Turkish.
Opposition is essential in most politics; it is a sign of democracy. It provides power and negotiation strength to authorities. In the case of Armenia, without the opposition parties, the Turks will bulldoze over Armenia with demands. Observe Turkey, and you will notice how Turkey harnesses the strength of the opposition to further its national goals. Turkey uses the opposition as a legitimate excuse to apply pressure and achieve its agenda vis-à-vis Europe and the US State Department. For a decade, Turkey forged its political agendas using the good-cop bad-cop tactics. In other words, as a threat in disguise (if you don’t support our demands, the opposition will take over and make matters worse.) Opposition to the Protocols gives Armenia stronger negotiation strength.
Have you ever heard an American media commentator refer to the US Republican party as right-wing extremist nationalist Republican Party? Have you ever heard the US Democratic party being referred to as the opposition radical Democrat party? And have you ever heard the United States being referred to as the former British colony of the United States? (as in former soviet republic of Armenia). And, have you ever heard American wealthy business men referred to as US oligarchs? And, have you ever heard the United States being accused of nationalizing the banks? But, you did hear the US State Department labeling other countries as "failed state" for bailing out their financial institutions. Have you ever hear the word corruption in the case of Enron, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, and the oligarch Madoff?
The Armenian Revolutionary Federation is an Armenian political party, in the role of the opposition, nothing more. The Armenian Republican party is the legitimate authority in power (for now J ).
Keep an eye on Mt Ararat!
Dear compatriots,In all above posts there are indeed reasonable points of views presented.in spanish the saying goes"Todos tenemos razon"..Thence please do not be aggravated or hurt if I take the liberty of choosing one ,as more to the point.That of Tomas.All rest als have their reasons.no doubt.
Tomas ,like self ,I gathered is the "earthly" man, as described in Leon Surmelian's "Don Quijote y Sancho Panza in Armenian Life"..in brief those who proclaim they are gradates of one smetimes 3 Universites etc., and are occupying positions in dverse Int'l org.s.LET THEM CARRY ON, BEST LUCK TO THEM.But if we really ASPIRE TO BE APROGRESSIVE DYNAMIC NATION(Now a Nation State)then we must try to opt for some REALIZABLE OBJECTIVES, rather than chase ,sometimes tiem consuming such events( have particpated in Armenia diaspora Conference 2 and 3,wherein those as mentioed by Tomas or actually again on the scene come up to be there JUST TO BE THERE AND MAKE SPEECHES,first indeed wasting our times,then attaining no tangible objetives..It is known to all that At the amalir(in RA ,erevan) over a thousand gathered and delivered discoursed, nothign came out of both,or if it did,was almost nil.
In last one-with all due respect to him, Mr. Oskanian had come up with the U.S. style fund(ling) basis,fud raising that of one basket full of Armenia's dry fruits (sample was up front near entrance0 to be made in quantiteis and shipped over to all Armenian(especally .S.)
Armen curches and sold at $50.-apiece, and with proceeds help improvise agriculture and lifestyle in Armenia's FAR FLUNG villages...IT DID NOT EVEN COME TO HAPPEN and if it did , was so limited that in church I attend ,was not there.
Whereas at a CRUCIAL TIME LIKE THIS FOR ARMENIDAD-ARMENITY,MAIN ISSUE IN A CONFERENC/FORUM OUGHT TO BE ,I DARE SAY AND "SUGGEST" the re-organization of the Armenian Diaspora(s) ,for which I submtted to this Armenianweekly and a host of others my viewpoints.In precis format for you now here.Though I know personally by the by 2/3 of the most distinguished persons who are to present their views on this Forum,they did not invite me...I don't complain-IT IS THEIR 'VOJ" Raison D'etre...get all from others views ideas listen carefully and sometimes even -sorry to say-copy,pick it up and then present as their own...
MY THESES is to ORGANIZE INTO CLASSIFIED "PROFFESSIONAL COLLEAGUES ASSOCIATIONS"-since 1978/9 published in Asbarez weekly-through a friend who was-now passed away- of a party member,thus got it published in it entitled One"FOUR PRECONDITIONS FOR THE ARMENIAN DIASPORA" AND ANOTHER"projections on a new statute for the Armeian daspora. dealing with in frst one THAT WE HAD OBTAIEND SO FAR 2 OF THE FOUR,NAMELY SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP AND STRUCTURES POLITCAL PARTIES.WE LACKED THE 3RD WHICH ACCORDING TO ME IS THE SOCIAL FORMATION -nowadays dbbed as CIVIL SOCIETIES ( CALL THEM IN ARMEIAN "UN GERAYNUTYUN"societization..ANYHOW..THROUGH 5 ALREADY FORMED THE HEALTH/MEDICAL,THE BAR , THE ENGINEERS & SCIENCES, SPORTIVE AND JEWELLERSTHIS OUGHT TO ENLAP THE FURNISINGS AS WELL, THE 10 more, SUCH A BANKING & FIANCE, TRANSPORT AND TRAVEL, INDUSTRES AND MINES , THE COMMUNICATIIONS IT ETC., COME UPT TO THE INTER-PROFFESSIONAL GROUPING COMPRISED OF THEIR ELE3CTD 3-PERSONS FROM EA FIELD,one for having atatained highest proffsionall postion,one economically and 3rd for being most advanced culturally, nat';l Int'l and w/networking capacity,THUS aiming twards a future Statute that would als include 3-per rep.s from our politicfla partides and one ea from our spiritual denominations,FORMING THE CENTRAL BODY OF EA ARMENIAN DENSE TOWNSHIP, FROM THESE TO CENTRAL COUNCIL OF GIVEN COMMUNITY COUNTRY ON TO THE SUPREME COUNCIL WITH FIVE DEPT.S ETC.,
MAIN OBJECTIBVE BEING -THROUGH THESE HUGE COLLECTIVITIES, TO ESTABLISH THE "NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND" NUCLEUS OF WICH BY OUR 5/6 MAGNATES...FOR IF WE TALK OF FUTURE REPATRIATION REPOPULATION OF RA/ARTSAKH AVAKH DOUGH MONEY...funds a huge national fund is amst .SAME TO BE MANAGED BY OUR MAGNATES MONETARY EXPERTS. ETC.,
OTERWISE LIKE TOMAS POINTS OUT THESE LIKE FORUMS -SIMILAR TO THE A/DIASPORA 2 /3 CONFERENCES WILL NOT PRODUCE RESULTS...
HAMA HAGAGAN SRO
GAYTZAG PALANDJIAN
P.S. MY WEB SITE.....www.Armenidad-Worldwide.org ins being reconstructed will hopefully appear soon on the web..
her last name is Reshetnikova that is it, Valeriya Reshetnikova, it is not Tsaturyan and is not with Reshetnikova.
It looks like the Turks have a bad case of unconsciously projecting the fact of the Armenian Genocide.
The ARF is not an opposition party.
Tomas:
You said 'Not even one of these academicians from the Diaspora is what could be considered a hard-nosed nationalist. This is intellectual diversity, academic freedom, and free speech? No, it isn’t. It’s conformity and defeat.'
That's funny -- I always thought of myself as a hard nosed nationalist. And Raffi Hovhanissian is quite the hard-nosed nationalist too. Nevertheless, hangestatsir.
Shame on the Armenian Assembly & the AGBU for not including the Armenian Relief Society, The Armenian Prelacy, The Armenian Catholic & Evangical Churches with the meeting with Secr. of State Hillary Clinton. Are these groups trying to split Armenians in the Diaspora? We need unity today more than ever. The Azeri's are threatning every day to get back Armenian Artsakh wheras Armenians should be working together on recognition of the Armenian Genocide, land returns & reparations from Turkey. The Protocols would be a disaster for Armenia if signed, whereby the Turks would benefit. The U.S., France, are the ones pushing for recognition of the Protocols. Thank God it may not go thru since Turkey wants the Artsakh Territory to be included in the Protocols. The Artsakhsi's will fight to the end after losing 15,000 people in that war. AGBU, the Assembly, the Diocese own a apology to those organizations they did not want included, otherwise Armenian's should not support those organizations in the future.
Stephen T. Dulgarian,
I consider myself as someone with rudimentary knowledge of the Amenian political landscape. However, I must ask you who is trying to split Armenians? The government of Armenia has already signed the protocol agreement and ratification is in process. Obviously the ANCA is one step behind. Why is the ANCA still fighting the process?
I must say that you are right as to invitations to particpatories. A broad spectrum of Armenian organizations should be considered. Unfortunately some groups would enter the room and proceed to be argumentive. All that would do would be to make the meeting a sham. Why try to usurp the authority of Armenia? Any group that enters the room should do so with the understanding that Armenia is moving on and then can participate.
Let me put it this way. . . . . when the Berlin Wall came down, how many Berliners went East? Not as many as went West I would bet! Diaspora Armenians NEED their 'West Berlin' to move to. Only then can we integrate and live with our akhpers and laugh again at OUR truly regional differences rather than live as TWO psyches in ONE small body. FULL REPARATIONS NOW!!
"By Henry Dumanian on February 24th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
The ARF is not an opposition party."
First of all the ARF opposes democracy. It's in their manifesto. It all goes back to their Russian roots.
Armenian nation is a strong nation whith it's faith,and that faith keeps us strong as a rock .
let us all keep it strong by speaking ,and singing Armenian ,telling the new generation about the reach Armenian history,keeping the traditions and always wishing to all oorakh yev yergar abrir im sireli hayrenagits.
Barvo to Harout Sassounian's thoughts of representation from the Diaspora in Armenia. The concept is great. However, implementation will be greater.
Avetis, look at yourself and deal w/ your own hateful, bigoted comments. You seem to hate and demonize Armenians for all kinds of things...time for you to cut it out. In this day and age, no one needs to hear that kind of crap, especially here. So, shut your trap if you have nothing constructive to say. I'm sick of your mindset and your pathetic, stupid words. Stupid words come from stupid minds, and you've been kind enough to exhibit both for everyone to see. If you want 'proper' Armenian, just try speaking krapar to someone on the street and see how far you get....maybe you should move into a church and never leave, that way you can hear all the 'proper' Armenian you want.
Henry Dear:
You misunderstood Tomas. He actually said "Hard-nosed". He did not mean to include a "big-nosed" librarian. Hahaha
OQ
I agree with Mr. Vahramian, painter or beggar, he eloquently proves his point.
If this is a`'forum' then everyone should be able to attend. There are a few of these fake organisations who like to invite their own cronies and then pretend they have had a representative forum. Only in this case, it is so obvious, all they wanted is hear themselves talk. They did not even publish the results of their 'deliberations'.
Kalyjian, you say the media did that! 'Nice job!' is the comment you rightfully got. All you wanted to do is publicize a 'flawed' report your 'head honcho' must have written in 2008.
Sorry Professor Kalayjian, but JHU just doesn't cut it, despite your illustrious accademic credentials, you have failed miserably to convince me that the so-called Policy Forum Armenia welcomes all. I had written to the PFA too for the thing they advertised for May 25. Like Vahramian, no-reply.
GV
Hye, Turks shall see in all, whether a poem, a song, even books, that they perpetuated the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - over one and one half millions terrorized, slaughtered, raped,
kidnapped and bastinados... the cruel pains inflicted prior to deaths - which truths a world knows.
Surviviors forced to flee to the civilized nations of the world - to recover, to return... remembering.
Our covenent with our Martyrs lives on through all of our generations - we shall never forget.
The truths will come forth - whether in song, poems, photos, suvivor's books, and more.
Our Martyrs will never let the Turk forget their inhumanity to humans, their bones unburied - still.
The Turk still pursues Armenians, knowing we can never forget, ever, the planned slaughter of the civilized Armenians' nations and stealing the Armenian culture - as Turks - as their own!
Manooshag
Abrik
I believe ARF are and were supporters of "white"Russians, not Red Russians.
From Wikipedia: "The original aim of the ARF was to gain autonomy for the Armenian-populated areas in the Ottoman Empire. The party began to organize itself in the Ottoman Empire in the early 1890s and held its first major meeting in Tiflis, Russian Empire, in 1892. At that meeting, the party adopted a decentralized modus operandi according to which the chapters in different countries were allowed to plan and implement policies in tune with their local political atmosphere. The party set its goal of a society based on the democratic principles of freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and agrarian reform."
However, I am confused by the ARF joining the March 8 alliance in Lebanon.
Dear Olga,
Great name! That's strange...hmm...big nose? I've always thought of myself as being quite the handsome guy! ;)
Isn't it about time for the ARF to change the backgound color of their flag?
Perhaps a pastel?
Raffi Hovanissian is not a hard-nosed nationalist at all. The head of his think tank, ACNIS, Richard Giragosian, is particularly not hard-nosed at all. That is what happens to people who bend over backwards to please odars and get jobs in their think tanks.
Another piece of proof? After the protocols were announced, with only an exception or two, Armenian American academicians (those with a Phd and a record of accomplishment) did not criticize it. The ones that had anything to say about the protocols were all softliners.
The only time I saw Armenian American academicians really question the protocols was when the editor of the Armenian Weekly went out of its way to actually ask them, and print their responses.
These academicians did not wish to make a public stand until they were asked. One therefore has reason to doubt their sincerity.
The recent letter by the SAS, for example, comes many months after the protocols were signed, further proof of how low Armenian American academicians have sunk.
There is a new breed of Armenian academician out there who is constantly trying to tell Armenians that "Turkey has changed," the implication being that because all of this is happening in HIS lifetime, the change must be unique and that God must be sending us all some sort of signal. He forgets that the Young Turk revolution of 1908 was hailed as Turkey's biggest "positive change" of all. He forgets what happened 7 years after that.
The average Armenian American academician is a pointy-headed liberal and a spoiled Baby Boomer or Gen-x'er who thinks that if you say something negative about Turks then you're a racist. These are the sort of mush-heads we Armenians have in academia. They think that if they speak in front of Jewish audiences and Soros-type of think tanks then those "odars" will like Armenians and take our side. They're pathetic.
In The legacy of Jihad by Andrew G. Bostom on page 221 you can read the 1915 Ottoman Fatwa which was one of the last acts of the Caliphate in Istanbul. It was the ideological and religious justification for the Turks to prosecute the Armenian Genocide.
The first paragraph of the fatwa says “The massacre of unbelievers [. . .] is now our duty” and that God commands to “Take then and kill them wherever you find them”. It is entirely based on the Koran, Hadith, and four schools of Islamic jurisprudence, as Imam’s are preaching jihad in Mosques throughout the Islamic world to this very day, and likewise is the basis of Al Qaeda’s messages to the Islamic faithful.
Islam was the ideology behind the Armenian Genocide.
James Jeffrey is on hallucinogens again. His laughable claims are preposterous. The RA
should immediately raise this with clinton et al and demand clarification pending any
further discussion. Eastern turkey is Western Armenia and both the americans and the
turks know this well.
Any signing of the Protocols will be a disaster for the Armenian Nation. Especially the Kars Treaty, which is illegal since it was signed by the Soviets giving Kars & Ardahan to the Turks, when Armenia was occupied by the Soviet Regime. Until Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide, makes land returns & reparations to the Armenian People, their can be no peace between the two nations. The Sevres Treaty signed in 1920 by Turkey, Armenia, and 16 other countries is still a valid treaty which the Armenian Government of Pres. Sarkisian must push forward to the Turks along with Genocide recognition. Our people have suffered enough and now that we have a free Armenia, our issues should be pushed to the United Nations and the world. Wake up diaspora Armenians before it is too late.
The notorious treaty of Kars, imposed on Armenia by Stalin & Lenin, has found a great champion in the person of US ambassador in Turkey, Mr. James Jeffry. Isn't that "wonderful"? By the way, no one had ratified that treaty, during about 90 yrs. of its signing. The dead has risen!!! Shall we rejoice Sir Jeffry?
G. Apelian
Efendi Karekin, how about just speak proper "Western" or "Eastern" Armenian? Or is that also too much to ask of a Russophobic Turcophile?
Ugur, the problem with forgiving and forging new friendships is denial. The rejection of past crimes makes forgiveness impossible. Armenians would love to forgive if they were acknowledged by the Turks for the crimes committed to them. The new generation of Armenians want to move on but they have their predecessors reminding them of heinous crimes and demanding justice. So, if the new generation of Turks want the new generation of Armenians to move on, please research the past, acknowledge the crimes, apologize (profusely for the older generation), write the accounts in Turkish textbooks in order to educate other Turks, and both can start toward healing. This healing is just as important for the Turks as it is for the Armenians, politically and emotionally. In order to move on, the Turks must acquire knowledge of the past and then confess their guilt for past crimes. Denial works against the process of reconciliation.
Is this event,25th March, in New York, limited to Armenians only participating or non-Armenian sympathizers can participate too?
On a related matter, my late mother Fatemeh Khajeh Hasan (born?-died 1982) told me a story that I've been meaning to retell.
"Back when I was a child living in Shushtar, Khuzistan province of Iran, one night came a knock at the door. We opened the door. Several strangers appeared from the dark, said they were Armenians,and asked for food and shelter.We asked them to stay with us for the night.The next day they all converted to Islam, said their goodbyes and were gone." That is all the details I recall of her tale.
Mom's childhood would've coincided with early 20th century events, in my opinion. Before coming to US, I'd never heard of "Armenian genocide".
Shushtar is and always has been an ultra Orthodox Muslim city. No Armenian that I know of has ever called it home although another group of Christians,Mandean (Sabian) running away from Ottoman Baghdad have sought refuge there (perhaps because of Shushtar's many rivers-useful for baptism!).
Question: In the historical memory of the genocide, has there ever been a recorded instance(s) like the one in my mother's Armenian story? If so i would like to know more.
Regards
Parviz Rastgaran
loftebavarsad@yahoo.com
This body will most likely be populated by "representatives" from the established organizations and simply turn into the new platform to bicker and disagree, except at a much more visible scale. While it is an interesting idea, it is fraught with problems and serious issues to work through.
This is a wonderful, detailed review. Bravo Antranig and Armenian Weekly!
Hye, arguing about dialects - how silly! Of course there is 'krapahr', and then their are all the various dialects... and why not? I had the most wonderful trip to Haiastan a few years ago. Earlier I had visited and stayed in Yerevan (whilst Haiastan was part of the USSR). This latest trip I visited Yerevan for two days and then had the ride of my life... The only way to see Haiastan!
We were to visit 'knamees' who lived miles away from Yerevan - and were to drive to their family farm which is near to Kapan. Well, this is when you really see our Haiastan. All along the route were
- the brooks of running waters (ayd bagh choor-eh, zoolal choor-eh) under bridges
- the restaurants whose man-made pools contained fishes to be caught and served
- the extraordinary sights of the rugged mountains all along the route
- and then, the farm... where the family plants and reaps all their foods
- as we stood under the mulberry tree with a sheet spread out - a boy shook the tree...
- a farm where there were signs of an earthquake/home had to be built again
So, it is these rugged mountains which I believe caused all these various dialects to be!
Riding along we'd see the green mountains, the homes and the farms in its valleys
Riding along we'd see the rocky, rugged formations as the earth had been shaken
and nothing grew there - none lived there
So, riding on, I pictured Haiastan, before all the high tech communications,
- who was able to travel from one mountain, passing rocky mountains? and more
So, there we have the reasons for all the various dialects.... no cars, phones, etc.
So, and yet, these 'mountains' may have saved our nation - at various times.
So, imagine, my father a Dikranagerdsi married my mom, frm Bursa... here in USA.
The saddest part of this picture
- so many of our people were forced to speak only in the turkish language
I'd met such years ago,
good Armenians who could not speak our Armenian language - in any dialect. Sadly.
Manooshag
The commemorative event in NYC is open to all, including Turks who have
Come to terms with their past and also those who want to know what their
Government has kept secret from them for almost 100 years.
I agree, it was a detailed story of athletes trying their best. ALL athletes are to be commended for their hard work in training, and just qualifying for the Olympics and giving their all. Politics has no place in these games!
Hye, this issue of Young Turks - gives more publicity to the world of the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation - 1915-1923.
Yet, the leadership of Turkey into today - still in their Ottoman mode and proud of that -
pursues the Armenians and continues the Turkish Genocide 1890s - 2010.
Manooshag
Before jumping to any unsubstantiated conclusions let's closely examine facts. Just because
Clinton and her team of traditionally backstabbing democrats (shame on them and their
predescessors for not showing the courage to recognize the truth of the genocide)
aren't "aggressively opposing legislation recognizing the Armenian Genocide" doesn't
Necessarily mean their for it either. In my opinion this is a clear indication of
Our community's strength that each Armenian American voter has helped earn through their
Work to advance our cause on capital hill.
Mr. Nazarian, I agree in part, however, there is nothing the opposition from trying to establish itself in this new body.
Mr. Sassounian -- I think an important aspect of this new institution should be the election of a few leadership positions (similar to the Speaker of the House). This election can based on the American electoral college -- each country gets a certain number of electoral votes, and those votes are determined by the number of "Armenians" in each country.
Which leads us to a few more problems: who determines who is an "Armenian?" What's stopping the pro-government Armenian oligarchs in Russia, or the ARFers in Beurit, or Prelacy in Aleppo, from rigging elections -- this could potentially be a new way for us to embarrass ourselves. And also, how are we going to stop foreign countries from taking advantage of what will arguably be an open-ended system? Can Bolsahyes vote? Will the Turkish Intelligence Agency be getting involved? CIA? KGB?
And lastly -- it seems like this organization will be able to assert pressure on the Armenian government. Considering the most powerful voices of the Diaspora have historically been antagonistic, non-supportive, and oppositional to fundamental issues (Boghos Nubar Pasha's refusal to accept Aharonian's delegation in 1919, the ARF's opposition to independence in 1988-90, and the AAA/ANCA's opposition to the pro-democracy movement in Armenia today) -- what's stopping you from acting in such destructive ways again -- this time on a powerful stage? The fact that we will not suffer the consequences of many of our decisions related to Armenia, severely hampers and renders immoral such an institution. And lastly, most Diaspora Armenians (I'd say 70-80%) are quite ignorant of some of the basic features of Armenian politics -- i.e. who is who, who supports what, etc. -- clearly what's going on in Armenia will have a real impact on the Diaspora. Most of the Diaspora's "objective" knowledge of Armenian news comes from hyper-partisan sources like Asbarez -- and most of that news, when it is not selectively bias, it is often just simple lies. Shouldn't we first concentrate on creating a truly bipartisan media -- one with less Ara Khachadourians and Appo Jabarians and one with more Edik Baghdasaryans and Ara Abrahamyans? I think the establishment of a new newspaper that has the FULL spectrum of Armenian political thought should be high on this list.
I think if you want to do any good -- call up Ara Abrahamyan and Edik Baghdasaryan and establish an Engnlish-language Aravat or Hetq. You can put Bagrat Sarkisyan on the board too to appease your partisans ;).
Hye, perhaps the ARF received only 6% of the votes in Armenia - since Serge and his cohorts
made certain that they, and only they, shall have been the winners - and elected themselves!
Manooshag
Dear Manoshag,
Thanks many thanks for your nice letter,
My parents were from Dikranagert
So may be we’re relatives!
Dekranagerd people are Clever and Kind
And I am proud what I am
They have a special dialect
Some Armenian jokes at them
I have forgotten most of their lyrics
As every one aged and left!
** Genocide Acknowledgment with Accountability **
** Reparation * Land * Restitution **
** Keep Turkey out of the EU **
Kars, Armenia
Mt. Ararat, Armenia
Ani, Armenia
Erzincan, Armenia
Ardahan, Armenia
Hye Artashes Bashmakian, since no one has come forth to explain Hai Tahd to you - which you yourself have 'described' it behooves me to say: Hai Tahd is all that you say - and more. It is
what comes from within you - from your generations lost to you - at times, indescribable pain,
remembering what the Martyrs suffered, and what memories our surivivors had to live with all the days of the lives - and more.
Hai Tahd is all things for all of us - our covenant from the Martyrs, passed to the Surviviors, and now to our generations following - in pursuit of Hai Tahd!
Manooshag
P.S. and of course, JUSTICE!
Hye Sylva, some songs I recall,
- Khuntzoreen tzareen dageh, yes eem yarus seeretzee, khuntzorrentzareen dageh
- Yahr meh oonayee, eenk shad paree
Tsanotz-onk ontzyal daree
Enal areen tserkes dareen
Agh yarus, shek mazehr-ov ehr
Daree nehr-ov espasetsee, hazard darder tserk tsketsi
En al areen tserkes dareen
Agh, yarus, shek mazeh-ov ehr
Garmeerdoon poosera, eech kan hamov ehr....
Hayr-neh badjar....(he gave her in marriage to another)
Agh yarus, shek mazerov-ehr..
and of course,
- Ayd bagh choorh,eh zoolal choor-eh
vor kalees eh sarehr-en...
Been fun recalling. and all Dikranagerdsis were related... or khnamees.
Manooshag
Steven, Berge et al,
Just like the spoiled litte children that you all are ("We want this, We're entitled to that, We demand..., etc."), you all must come to the realization that your DEMANDS for "Reparation, Land, Restitution, etc. is nothing more than a pipe dream of wishful thinkers! Get used to it...Get over it... and MOVE ON!
I do have a question for any or all of you...Let's just say, for argument's sake, that all of your "dreams" came true. Okay, how would you have in enforced? Which country will force Turkey to give up an inch of its soil and a penny from its treasury to a backwater nation who offers nothing to the rest of the world (other than terrorism)? Think about it. No nation has the right nor the will to even contemplate such a ridiculous thing! So, in reality, yours are nothing more than an excercise in futility! Seriously, it's time for you all to move on.
Can someone explain to me why each time John Evans speaks, his message is: no reparation, no restitution and no land, only acknowledgment. Is he the arbiter of how Turkey should be held accountable for the crime of genocide? (This is in line with US State Department, TARC, and the likes of David Phillips, et. al.)
** Genocide acknowledgment with accountability **
Good for you Stephen Dulgarian, of course I completely agree with you! Wake up Armenia proper and Diaspora Armenians. We do demand our Western Armenian lands in the form of reparations from the Armenian Genocide. Kars Treaty is completely illegal, since Kemal Ataturk was not the president of Kemalist Turkey then and he illegally made the Kars Treaty with the Bolsheviks. It is therefore an illegal Treaty. On the other hand the legal Treaty is the Sevres Treaty that was signed by numerous delegates by several countries and world powers as well as by our Avedis Aharonian, who was there as a delegat sent by Armenia. The other legal document is the Wilson Arbitration Award that was signed by President Woodraw Wilson. These are the real legal documents that the Republic of Armenia and all Armenians in Diasporan should pursue through world legal channels and the U.N.
Evans represents the US political establishment and he was place within our community to do their bidding. The Armenian Assembly is also a tool of the US State Department. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true of the ANC...
The main thing is that at least she completed the run. I'm for ALL athletes, and wish them all well.
Here we go getting our hopes up again. Could we really expect the administration to do things exactly the same way this year? Of course not. They had to change things up a bit with all the eyeballs on them. But there is still plenty of time for them to pick from the usual panoply of excuses to stick with Turkey and abandon the Armenians and that's exactly what they will do. Enough dreaming.
To Dan: "Someone who knows please explain:"
The short answer to this question is the lack of Armenian culture on the part of the post-WW 2 immigrants to Soviet Armenia. Most of them loved to speak the language of their previous country. They did practice this when they wanted to speak on the back of natives. I was personally looked upon down when I asked a woman to identify the name of the statute. It happened to be the statute of poet Charren. The native people speak pure Armenian versus the immigrants who mixed words from different languages and seemed to natives uneducated and in fact most of them had no education. For example, I know more than 500 families that immigrated from Iran who were farmers with no education at all. However, all of their children graduated high school and some of them received higher education who had no chance to attend college in Iran due to their lack of financial means.
Another reason is that most native Armenians were not member of the Communist party. Whereas most of the immigrants moved to Armenia because of their faith to communist regime.
There is another factor. Most immigrants comparing natives had better manners and had respect for their spouses than the natives.
These resolutions are a waste of time and resources, we need to put our efforts into educating Turks. Thats easier said than done, but its more probable than the passage of the resolution.
As Mr. Jololian points out, the goal of the US State Department and the reconciliation groupies, such as David Philips, is to obtain for Armenians a half-baked acknowledgment of genocide, on one condition: that Armenians give up all rights to reparations and territory. Is is worth it? To some half-baked Armenians and the reconciliation groupies (some Armenian academicians are among them) it is.
Hillary Clinton doesn't have a principled bone in her entire body.
As there has never been stability in politics, pessimistic views about the current administration may prove to be wrong... Let's wait to see what happens on March 4th!
Isn't it funny that allready now some turkish rightheous idiot allows himself to attend the armenian eurovision and then think that he has the right to critisize armenian affairs publically? Is this the slow decending against madness, as these strange new diplomatic agreements between Armenia and turkey are taking place, that we are seeing blossom? I mean how much paranoia and control do they think they can subject armenians to ? They should just keep their mouts shu! The armenians can vote for whatever they want to and that's that!
Hye, I remember in discussions it was said that the Armenians of Artsakh/Karabagh were the purest
bred of Armenians... the blood lines as well as their dialect - since they had not been overrun by the
various conquerors etc. Should be of interest as well for medical resources as well.... Manooshag
This is merely AIPAC sending a warning message to Turkey via their obedient servant Hillary. From Ergenekon to Iranian sanctions and attitude towards Gaza conflict, Israelis are pissed at Turkey and are using the Genocide resolution as ploy.
Hello Mr. Harutunian; you probably know more than I about native Armenians vs. the new comers from Iran. However from the Middle East; I know that most of the native Armenians before on or about WW2 and beyond were culturally more educated than the Armenians in the Middle East at least until and before the 1960's. The Armenians from the Middle East that emigrated to our homeland were mostly of Ramgavar Gusagtsutyun or "chezoks". The Ramgavar Azadagan Gusagtsutyun unfortunately were very much for Communist Armenia. I don't know why they thought and acted that way; but they were very much for the Communist regime who thought that all Armenians in Armenia were Communists. So much that Housaper's respectable editor Vahan Navasartian from Cairo, Egypt used to continuously tell them answering to the Arev Lerakir that was the organ of Ramgavar Gusagtsutyun to stay clearly away from their Communist talks and ways, but they never listened to reason nor to Navasartian's reasonings. ARF knew that Armenians in our Motherland were mostly NOT Communists, but deep rooted Armenian patritots who loved their country. It's a sheer shame; because that's the path that the Ramgavar Gusagtsutyun took at the time and they pushed and geared the poor people in the Middle East to repatriate to Armenia when times were bad in our Republic and the people didn't know how bad things were. Tashnagtsagan leaders in the Middle East knew everything and they kept telling to the Ramgavars not to push the poor masses to repatriate but they didn't listen. Do not forget that the Diaspora was the remnants left from the Armenian Genocide and so in the Western Armenian Homeland, Armenians were not assymilated, they were the genuine Armenian people who mostly kept their Armenian roots, culture and their way of life. Something that today's Armenian Republic who was mostly under the Russian regime were not. Later on the Communist regime made things much worse for our people in the Republic who lost their better manners towards women and their families, I believe they adopted the Russian ways (who unfortunately are drunken and women beaters). Not all of course, but the Communist regime left it's destructive marks on our people in the Republic, I'm afraid. On the other hand in the Diaspora, the Middle Eastern Armenians in some areas adopted more Arabic culture, language, etc. Europe and America is another matter. Basically whether in the Armenian Republic, in the Middle East, in Iran, in Europe or in America; we all became a little more or a little less assymilated, for instance by using the language of our adopted country and their way of life too. Personally, I love speaking Armenian all the time because I love my language and I believe it's a unique and a beautiful rich language; I hope many continue to use our language and continue to feel proud of it even though we all live in the Diaspora and the pressures are there.
I have also heard that Artsakhtsi Armenians are of pure bred as well as "katch" very heroic in nature. On another note, my anscestors on one part of my family were from Nakhichevan. When the Mongolian Turks and the Seljuks migrated from Mongolia in the 13 through the 15th centuries they attacked and annihilated most of the Armenians in Nakhichevan and so most of the Nakhichevantsis migrated to Smyrna, Poland and to southern parts of Armenia. Today there is not a soul of Armenian left in Nakhichevan, but that luckily didn't happen to the Artsakhtsis at those times anyway even thoughmArtsakh is more east of Nakhichevan. Thank goodness that it didn't happen then; but later on the Tatar pogroms didn't even leave them alone.
This one is to Papken Hartunian. You will excuse me but you are all wet to the point that I think you have the same disease as Astarjian; you MUST pretend you are knowledgeable. Let’s go over your statements, one by one:
1. It is NOT “the statute of poet Charren,” it is the statue of the poet CHARENTS.
“The native people speak pure Armenian.” Not so, their everyday speech contains many Russian and Farsi [Iranian] words, UNLESS they are in a situation where they must speak proper Armenian.
“I know more than 500 families that immigrated [sic] from Iran who were farmers with no education at all.” First of all how on earth can you KNOW 500 families? And then, in the era of WWII ‘Nergaght’ particularly from Iran, a sixth grade education was mandatory in Iran; everyone HAD to have a sixth grade certificate. So there could NOT have been ‘farmers’ with no education.
[The children of Iranian emigrants] “had no chance to attend college in Iran due to their lack of financial means.” I have no idea what made you come to this conclusion, but education was FREE in Iran, and most if not all Armenians insisted in their kids having at least twelve years of education. Finances, or lack thereof did not enter the picture. University level education was also FREE and those that were good enough entered the university by entrance examinations. Not every idiot would be admitted into the university. One had to be GOOD, not rich. So I doubt it if you knew 500 families and I doubt it if there was even one uneducated Armenian among those that emigrated to Armenia.
The last two segments of your comments do not deserve attention because not every emigrant was enamored with communism, and your remark about spousal manners is plain absurd. Am I glad that the likes of you decided to go back to from where they went to Armenia. It wasn’t your place.
(The correct spelling of your name is Babken Haroutiunian, not Papken Hartunian.)
ITS MID TERM ELECTION STUPID!!!!!
They know Armenians are mad at this administration, the mid-term election is coming up and they will pretend that there is no opposition from the state and administration
What a bunch of Wiesels !!!
We must vote every politicians out of the senate and congress. DONT BE FOOLED AGAIN!
This is about easy oil routes out of the Caspian. When Russia invaded Georgia, Armenia became more important. This has never been about recognizing the Genocide or any justice for it. Armenians are not that politically strong to make the Armenian Genocide somehow all of a sudden "right for America". The lesson of the Holocaust are however but not the Armenian Genocide.
Yet NO ONE mentions that in the US, travel expenses are generally deductible, both to and from the volunteer location. The full cost of flights or bus or train rides can be taken off your taxes as well
Why are you all jumping on S of S Clinton's back all of a sudden? Didn't she support S. Res. 106 when she was in the Senate?! All you're proving here is that, as usual, dashnaks are so fickle that they'll abandon someone and stab them in the back at a moments notice (sound familiar?) as they hop onto someone else's bandwagon! How do you all say it?...Ah yes, the end justifies the means! BTW Frieda, I believe that the word that you're looking for is spelled "W E A S E L S".
I have today posted my "suggestions" under title "Projections on a New Statute for the Armenian Diaspora"in connection with Armenia Diaspora Reations as well as ,means and ways for re-organizing the Diaspora to become a Super Structure with a Suprme Council.I do trust the Editors of this prestigious weekly,in extension the Harenik Association wll also post it ,so as my compatriots can follow others' viewpoints in this respect.
Thanks in advance,
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
Gaytzag Palandjian
It's wonderful to see the AYF and ACYOA work together. Ապրի՛ք:
Is Congressman McMahon a Turkish mule?
CANA: Congressman McMahon bankrolled by Turkish Coalition of America to deny Armenian Genocide
28.02.2010 18:46 GMT+04:00
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Congressman Michael McMahon has become bankrolled by the Turkish Coalition of America.
In 2009, Congressman Michael McMahon became a member of the Subcommittee on Europe in the House Foreign Affairs Committee. On May 10, 2009, Congressman McMahon joined the Turkish Caucus. He joined the Hellenic Caucus pledging support for Cyprus and the Patriarchate. To the dismay of Armenian Americans and Greek Americans, he took the Turkish side to deny the Armenian Genocide. He took the Azeri Turkish side to condemn the freedom of Armenian Nagorno-Karabakh from Azerbaijan Turkish persecution. How trustworthy is this man to Greek Americans when he supports the Turkish side’s denial of the Armenian Genocide which means he probably denies the Genocide of Greeks and Assyrians of Asia Minor, 1915-1923.
Congressman McMahon pledged not to vote ‘Yes’ for the Armenian Genocide Resolution in an upcoming March 4, 2010 vote in the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Turkish Lobby is using Michael McMahon, after Robert Wexler’s resignation from Congress on Jan 10, 2010, to be the next strong Turkey supporter in the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Europe. Wexler was Co-chair of the Turkish Caucus and Chair of the Subcommittee on Europe. McMahon like Wexler occupied congressional districts where huge Greek American communities resided. Regardless, they keep to their strong support for Turkey. Democrat Michael McMahon is the only strong Turkey supporter in the Subcommittee on Europe along with Democrat David Scott (he voted against Armenian Genocide Resolution), The Cyprus Action Network of America reported.
McMahon represents New York’s 13th Congressional District which includes Staten Island, Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights and neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
The Armenian Genocide resolution (H.Res. 106) was submitted to the House of Representatives by Representative Adam Schiff (D-CA), on January 30, 2007, during the 110th United States Congress. It was a non-binding resolution calling upon the US President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide, and for other purposes. Upon its introduction it was referred to United States House Committee on Foreign Affairs where it passed a 27-21 vote and was sent back for a full house vote. On October 26, 2007, in a letter addressed to the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, four key sponsors of the bill, requested a debate on the bill in full House to be postponed.
Another resolution affirming the U.S. record on the Armenian Genocide (H.Res.252) was formally introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives by Reps. Adam Schiff (D.-CA), George Radanovich (R.-CA), Frank Pallone, Jr. (D.-NJ), and Mark Kirk (R.-Ill) in 2009. It currently has 137 co-sponsors
When you drop a culturally middle eastern population within a European state, same ethnicity or not, there are bound to be problems with integration.
harkeli CHADERJIAN, gouzem shenorhavorel tsezi voch anbayman ays keroutyanet hamar ayl mnatsyal polorin vor yes chem pakhtsner ,vorovhedev tsevov me serdis modig barounagoutyunerou masin ge krek ,medz ourakhoutyun ge badjare indzi hamar yerp medkeres tser kradz nuyteroun hed ge miyanan ,abrik touk asdvadz aveli zoratsene tser krelou garoghoutyune yev hanteknoutyune ,vor garoghanak mishd made verkin vera tenelov krel .shenorhavorutyuneres.
Once again, we can witness Armenians arguing vigorously about the width of a shaft of hair, while all the time totally ignoring the length, the color, or whether it is curly or straight, as if they don't exist or don't matter at all.
Hye, this is a P.S. to the 'discussions' above, about the various and diverse Armenian dialects - which we also have had in the USA with the English language with the:
- the slow southern, almost slurred, speech of our southern citizens
- the twangy, sort of, of our western citizens
- the distinctly New England speech of our northern citizens
- the only state where the speech was identifiable - New Jerseyans
- Pennsylvania, the various German/Dutch influences...
and so on...
So, now, it all has come to be where we all speak and understand one another clearly... Why?
Due to the TVs which came in our homes - and ZIP, now barely any dialects - almost... And so, given time,this may come to pass with the spoken Armenian language... technology shall bring us together - to understand one another - at least dialectly!
But don't knock the diversiions which have served us over the generations... as I had said, our mountains, separating us (even in our unity) retaining the various dialects, until today!
Manooshag
Denial of a genocide is nothing but a second killing.
So, the NAZI regime is not only gone but defeated and destroyed, why are your- THE JEWISH/JINSA- still fighting the denial of Jewish Holocaust by every mean and every where!?
JINSA has never been so hounest, therefor no need to add further commnets to this shamefull statment!
Arius, I think it is important to distinguish Islam from those who interpret it in a way that suits their interests.
The main argument of JINSA is that the United States is not Brazil or Lativa. Exactly, fellas.
That's why the legislative bodies of the greatest, strongest and most diverse country in the world, should pass the Armenian Genocide Resolution.
I think JINSA deserves much more than just a comment below: info@jinsa.org
It is really sad to see when western countries try to cover-up a massive crime, a genocide against Armenian women, men and children by Turkey because Turkey has become geographically important place for western business.
Where is the justice, sorry there will never be justice for the Armenian Genocide but only recognition. And this too, the west can't seem to decide.
A day does not go by that I don't hear and read that it is the misunderstanders of Islam that promote violent jihad. I have put a considerable effort into studying the Koran, Hadith, the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence, the history and day to day actuality of dhimmitude, and what Muslims say to each other as opposed to what they say to infidels. Ten years ago I would have talked like N, but no more. At least talk to those that go undercover into Mosque’s in the US or watch translations of Imam’s preaching on Arabic TV. To the faithful Imam’s preach that Christians and Jews are apes and pigs that must be subdued or slain. To each other Muslims say 'first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people'. They don’t say it to infidels; they know what we want to hear. If you know Islam you know it’s taqiyya, dissimulation, taught by the Koran and Islamic jurisprudence. This is an integral part of Islam taught everywhere in the Islamic world. People in the West don’t believe it’s in Islam because they don’t want to believe it. This, I think, is the basic problem in the West, that we can’t believe that a religion can preach that evil (to rape, torture, oppress, enslave, and kill) is good and commanded by God. Do you think that after the Muslim Turks killed most of my relatives in 1915 they repented in the local Mosque, or that the Imam reprimanded them? No, it’s quite the opposite.
The errors by Mr. Simon were purposeful in order to appease the ADL and other Turkish sponsers. Make no mistake about it, America's free speech has been hijacked by the very first group of people who invented state sponsered terrorism. After all, that great humanitarian, Ghengis Khan, used to rule by inflicting terror and fear and passed on that doctrine to his decendants.
How pathetic, for almost 50 years the Turkish government would threaten some sort of action if even a movie was made on the subject. Why should foriegn countries and corporations limit American freedoms like the First Amendment?
Your article is disgraceful and unworthy of a Jewish organization. Imagine if Americans started to have such a dismissive attitude towards the Holocaust..."That was between the Nazis and the Jews, let them sort it out"...You don't think its the same? Guess again! You can only use such skewed logic when you estimate the value of one group of human beings as inherently less then your own...and in your schematic, genocided Armenians are simply less entitled to remembereance and dignity than dead Jews!
Sincerely,
Greg Chopoorian
Shame on Israel to deny the Armenian Genocide. I had a lot of sympathy for Israel, but not anymore.
Right on the mark Mr. Sassounian. Excellent analysis.
If the CBS is inundated with angry letters from disgruntled genocide deniers and those ignorant of objective history, they can thank the Turkish government and its surrogate liars operating within the State Department for catering to their needs on this issue for decades.
Robert, (mehmet or whatever your real name is)
This is not going to end. Tell all your murdering, raping and lying kind to get used to it. Also, please tell me what Turks contribute to society other then brothels and sex shops and a majority of heroin trade that get funneled through Turkey to Europe? Lets not forget you guys are truly the 'sick man of Europe'.
JINSA has some nerve publishing such rubbish.
For how much longer will the Jewish lobby remain enslaved to their ottoman masters?
If you look up this org. on the internet, you will see it is made up of neocons and right-wingers; people like Dick Cheney. Those people are not in office now; Obama won the election; however, don't be disappointed with Obama if he doesn't let the resolution pass because of strategic interests, he may be a little better than Bush & Co.
Upon the flowering of Turkish-Iran relations, I anticipate not hearing a single peep from JINSA's hypocrites.
My understanding of the western world is that of liberty of the people, democracy, capitalism, respect of choice, the rule of the majority, room for various ideologies and religions, the value of history and the importance of one's past, to grasp the present and to evaluate and analize the future; importance of culture, history, art, etc...
This same western world is the one who denies the tragedies of once past of the Armenian people. Ironic enough the figures who shaped the nowadays western world are the same people who were reporting about this barbaric act of extermination of a human race by the Ottoman Empire. Their reports, pictures, historical footages are one of our major proofs to the painful reality which we still- 95 years after- consider to be a cause rather than a historic known fact.
Our demands are our rights- the rights of a race tortured and masacred for a barbaric ideology of pantouranism.
We are demanding the acceptance of what would only put an end to an ongoing masacre of a different sort to the Armenians.
I would only want to make sure that my ancestors' faced horrific past is not to be forgotten. I do not blaime the Turks for it's not their dead. But i do blaime them and the entire world for their constant struggle to make sure the truth is not revealed for purposes of international politics over what is just, right, moral and ethical.
We want an end to a denial of my peoples' past, religion, culture...the same concepts that the western world show to be advocate of...
Whatever the flaws, I think CBS, Simon and Peter Balakian should be commended highly. However, it was interesting and very revealing to see the BBC broadcast a statement read by Radovan Karadzic in court, where he used precisely the same language as Sensoy to proclaim his and Serbian innocence in the treatment of Bosnian Muslims. The similarity was hard to miss - denial is all pretty much the same, I suppose. Though, at this point, you might think most Turks would also see a similarity, and be somewhat embarrassed to have a representative of their country say such shameful and frankly, stupid, things on camera. Looking at Sensoy's face, I could only think his family had little or no historic connection w/ Anatolia, unlike every single Armenian around the world who has the most ancient of roots there.
Woooopteeeee Woo....the CBS and 60 minutes finally mustered enough courage to air the truth about the Armenian genocide.
May I ask what the hell took them so long????????????? 95 years after a genocide and just now their realizing the truth about it all and ready to publicize it without any excuses! Give me a break. The diplomatic evidence and the historical truth has been collecting dust in America's Library of Congress and other archives for decades now. The sand dunes of bones where my murdered Armenian ancestors were unjustly killed in 1915 has been sitting in that pile at Der Zor in Syria for almost 100 years now.
I appreciate the whole 12 minutes Mr. Simon, but is waiting 95 years to air 12 minutes about a crime against humanity and its blatant denial really how a media organization intends to educates its viewers about pressing issues affecting America's stance on anything especially Genocide??????????????????????
Genocide ( Holocaust) in Europe & Germany (against jews)? Yes!
Genocide in Cambodia? Of course!
Genocide in Rwanda? Why not!
Genocide in Darfur? It's still going on, idiot!
But Genocide in the Ottoman empire against the native people of Armenia, usurped by turks? No, no, no! Only sad events! Events that steal tears of crocodile , from the eyes of democratic rulers! The very favorable geographic position of Turkey, has made Western states & their rulers to view things with a "realistic" look! Yes, the wiping out of 1,500,000 Armenians is nothing! After 95 yrs. let them rest in peace, but let's not disturb the strategies of the most Democratic states!
Let it be very clear, to every one, that Turkey, as Mr. H. Sassounian has stated, with its persistent denials, will only make the matters worse for itself.
And in the US? The very existence of millions of documents, from its missionaries which were spread in Armenian communities from Izmir to Cilicia, Kharpert, Van, etc. is the best proof of Turkey's planning & execution of the lst Genocide of the 20th cent. Still, the US consuls' & ambassador H. Morg.'s reports leave no doubt about this matter. But the Injerlik air base is worth more than the lives & properties of millions of innocents!
Hey Harut:
Ask yourself if your title even makes any sense! You've already been proven to have no credibility, your racisism is showing just a tad, wouldn't you say!
In sum, how wonderful and interesting how this CBS piece was so un-biased and fair, as it clearly took the time to objectively discuss the atrocities committed by dashnaks upon moslems and non-moslems alike (as is typical of ALL Armenian pieces out there since WWI)! Bob Simon and P. Balakian are truly professional jounalists...NOT!! LMAO :-)
Well John,
Unfortuately, thanks to the editorial board (who has their tails between their legs as they cower in fear from an possibility of truth coming forth) only a small percentage of my posts actually see the light of day, while the rest are usually censored and then deleted (what more can one expect from cowards).
As to your statement and question (AND please note editorial board, the insulting and defaming context of John's letter), obviously you're not quite educated to the point where you can debate anyone yet! Please re-read your statement and see where you have numerous errors. Then when you're mature enough (and a little better educated and informed), come on back and I'll be happy to answer any well thought out question. Until that time, realize that your statements are textbook examples of a typically defeated, envious, jealous, frustrated and angry people who suffer from a low self-esteme, and as a consequence, have developed an inferority complex!
iyi günler ben adıyaman türkiye den bu mesajı size yazıyorum. şimdi eşimin babaannesi bir ermeni imiş ve adı da meryem imiş. eşimin babaannesi aslen malatya da yaşadıklarını babasının bir doktor olduğunu kendilerine papa ailesi dendiğini göç sırasında kendisinin adıyaman lı biri tarafından eş olarak alındığını, erkek kardeşlerinin ise amerika nın kaliforniya eyaletine gittiğini söylemiş. şimdi sizden ricam, ya böyle parçalanmış ailelerin akrabalarını aradıkları bir dernek veya onun gibi bir sitede bana yardımcı olmanız. bana yardımcı olursanız sevinirim şimdiden çok teşekkür ederim
Robert,
Again you proved your point with wonderful facts, NOT!
Have you ever read a history book outside of Turkey or one not paid for by the ITS? Sorry but the Armenian Genocide is pretty well documented even IN OUR OWN UNITED STATES ARCHIVES. Or Is that biased or unfair to you as well? The Armenians were not exterminated for Ottoman protection but rather for envy, pure racism and most of all theft of their property and money. 99% of the murdered were unarmed civilians? Why were the Assyrians and Greeks murdered as well? Did they murder Muslims too?
Robert, the turk, you are still in the Ottoman mode... unable to recognize the truths about your own
leaderships as well. You are still the product of these leaders who have you so well 'programmed' you are unable to comprehend that the lies your leaders feed you have made you the 'being' you are.
A bullying Turk, using ploys after ploys, changing allies like Kleenex tissues, on again and off again with these 'allies'... These are signs of the desparation of your leaders... Turkey is as a sinking ship - rotten and decayed - sinking. The world recognizes the Turks, Ottoman and into today's leaders,
in their senseless denials - perpetrated the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - stole these
Armenian lands, Armenian cultures via Genocide - not by war - Genocides. Slaughtering, rapes, kidnapping, burning women/children forced into their churches - the brave, brave Turks - forced
the unarmed Armenians into the deserts - walked until they died. Oh, Robert, or whatever your real name is, the favorite torture of the Turk was the bastinado - beating the soles of the victims feet - until it bled and burst - death was the only release from this torture... and all the bones of the victims, can still be found - unburied, still. Picture this happening to your own nation... Manooshag
Mr. Ashot Yerkat:
My family owns an Armenian village in Iran. It is called Garagis. There used to live at 100 Armenian families.
We also used to own real estate in Shirabad where there were living at least 50 Armenian families.
Other villages such as, Garjaloo (with at least 50 families), Ikiaghaj (with at least 200 families), Gardabad (with at least 300 families), Rahav (with at least 30 families), Darbaroo (with at least 50 families), Sardaroo (with at least 50 families), and other nearby villages were populated also by Armenians. Today, no Armenian lives in these villages. Most of them, whom I know them personally, have immigrated to Armenia. Five hundred families is very underestimated number. These villages are located nearby Urumieh, Iran.
With your permission, I am planning to visit Armenia in August. I will try to visit everyone of my former farmers and provide evidence to defend my claim in case you decided to take me to court for misinformation.
Until 1970, there was no college or university in most of the Iranian cities. For example, there was no college or university in Urumieh where the above villages are located nearby.
As to Armenian not being my place, I will take your advice under consideration.
If you can be kind, please provide your reasoning about your correction of spelling my full name.
Papken Hartunian
Robert,
Right, your facts are overwhelming and I'm jealous of not being called the sick man of Europe. Low self esteem is when you need laws banning anyone discussing the truth of your races' genocidal past and pretending it's an "insult to Turkishness" if any intelligent person does so. Imagine a country so afraid of it's own past that it needs laws like that? I think your kind is the real cowards. Mehmet, the Armenians are still here even after almost completely being wiped out. It took Armenians 2-3 generations to regroup after our genocide. We are not going to “just forget about it” with out justice. The truth always prevails and all Armenians will see to that. This will not end.
The US does not deny the American Slavery, does not deny the slaughter of the Indians, and the US dos not deny the war of 1812. However, the Hebrew State of Israel, Turkey, and the US State Department deny the Armenian Holocaust.
I wonder what the American Jewry and Holocaust survivors think of organizations such as JINSA, ADL, and AJC?
Do American Jewry know that the word Genocide was coined by Jurist Raphael Lemkin, a lawyer of Polish-Jewish descent and a Holocaust survivor; to specifically describe the destruction of Armenians and the barbarity that befell upon them at the hands of the Turkish state? If Raphael Lemkin was still alive he would have been ashamed at these hypocrite organizations.
Rabbi Hillel said it best, “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”
Hey Robert! Ask yourself how pathetic you look by wasting your time day and night trying to discredit Armenians to no avail on this website. Monitoring this website can't be your life. I mean what are they paying you for this? ...or wait a minute you are so proud of Ataturk and SO SO PROUD of your PERFECT COUNTRY OF TURKEY that you do it pro bono right? Don't get me wrong your quite entertaining at times while the rest of us discuss topics and issues beyond your intellectual capacity not to mention level of maturity...but it stops at that sadly. A sort of clown here for our amusement that merely recites what the embassy told you to in the hopes that some unwary visitor will actually take your comments seriously....fat chance really!
The bottom line however is that the majority of visitors to this site ultimately stop laughing after reading your posts and really feel sorry for you and people like you that have been left in the dark by your very PROUD COUNTRY AND PEOPLE.
The Turkish PM will pay his respects at the memorial for the 1.5 million martyrs of the Armenian Genocide in Yerevan soon enough and Western Armenia will be returned. You will see this day as well Robert.
PS - Consider yourself lucky that Mr. Simon's revealing CBS program on the Armenian Genocide didn't go for a full hour instead of only 12 minutes. Perhaps next time it will!
Great work Harut and well said Levon, Realist Karekin, George and John.
Not in my name. These stupid organizations need to learn to speak for themselves. No decent person would affiliate themselves with an organization that didn't recognize the genocide. I stopped reading the adl site when they hemmed and hawed and decided to placate the Turks. I understand the outrage as nothing upsets people more than hypocrisy but do know there is tremendous division in the Jewish community on this.
Dear Mr. Sassounian; You commented very well for the CBS' 60 Minute airing of the Armenian Genocide on February 28th. Just a couple of thoughts; Talaat has already mentioned that his dastadly heinous crimes against the Armenian people has left the whole nation so much crippled that the Armenians would not be able to raise their heads to complain about it or ask for reparations for the next 50 years. And it was only in 1965 (exactly 50 years later) that Armenians throughout the world started commemorating the Armenian Genocide. However, thanks to the Zionist Jews in Washington who backed up the Turks to deny the Genocide, it has lasted now 95 years, and Armenians are still fighting to have Washington recognize and pass a resolution for the AG. The second thing I wished to mention is although Mr. Balakian did a good job and thanks to his good efforts he was able to air our plight for the Genocide on 60 Minutes and we should wholeheartedly thank him for it; however I wish he had prior to going and airing at Der El Zor, Syria, he had some scientists checked several bones in the area to have proof that it consisted only the DNA's of Armenian people. That way Nabi Sensoy of Turkey wouldn't be able to callously dismissed it nor say that it was a war time and that those bones at Der Zor could have been of other people too and not just Armenians.
Jewish groups (JINSA, ADL, AJC, AIPAC) are in the same boat as that other high profile genocide denier - Iran's Ahmadinejad.
Peter Balakian's trip to Der-Zor was funded by the US State Department ( New York Times Magazine, Dec 8th, 2008, "Bones")
Naturally, the US State Department likes the soft-Armenians like poet Peter Balakian, and the Knights-of Vartan group, etc.. Out of all the experts and international genocide scholars, it picks Balakian to strategically misrepresent and fool Armenians to free Turkey from accountability for its crime of genocide.
The US State Department wanted this segment aired 5 days before the house resolution, in order to defeat it. The segment was riddled with strategic mis-representations; subversive language, Turkish propaganda. Half the segment was dedicated to Turksih denial; the other half was dedicated to CBS's startegic misrepresentation.
There wasn't a single map displayed; there was no reference to geography; and Bob Simon led the viewer to beleive that the bulk of the Armenians hailed from Istanbul, as opposed to Western Armenian provinces and territories of the first Armenian Republic.
By referring to the Armenian genocide as a “battle over history”, clearly shows that CBS does not understand the meaning of Genocide. Genocide stops when denial ends. The Armenian genocide (1915-2010) is on-going. Genocide is not just the act of killing; it is the eradication of any reference to history, culture, architecture, references to a group, and the names of towns and places, etc, .. as if the victims never existed.
The viewer is supposed to believe the following:
- There is no defined Western Armenian territory (land)
- It is a battle between historians to decide.
- Acknowledgment *without* holding Turkey Accountable for the crime of genocide.
- No reparation, No restitution and No land.
If US house of reps has no right to discuss the Armenian Genocide, then AhmediNajat has the right to deny the holocaust.
This report raises some good points and important facts on the Armenian Genocide, but is rife with big negatives, deliberate misrepresentations and outright lies:
1. Its frequent use of the terms "battle...the massacres...the events" to describe an incontestable fact is unacceptable and constitutes an unconscionable act of genocide denial -- the ultimate form of hate speech!
Allowing Amb. Sensoy the opportunity to deny the Armenian Genocide on national television is as criminal and cruel an act as airing any statements by a neo-Nazi leader denying the Jewish Holocaust!
2. It deliberately fails to identify the Armenian homeland of more than four millennia.
There is no reference to "Anatolia...eastern (Ottoman) Turkey...Western Armenia and Cilicia..."
CBS: "But our story begins where the lives of so many Armenians ended, far from Istanbul, in the desert...The survivors ended up in concentration camps hundreds of miles from Istanbul, out of sight."
Istanbul (then Constantinople) was never the Armenian homeland or part of the Armenian homeland. During the Armenian Genocide, Armenians (95%+) were cleansed and driven primarily from Western Armenia and Cilicia!
CBS deliberately does not want the nation to identify and respect the specific location and boundaries of the occupied Armenian homeland, the return of which is the crux of the Armenian Question and the main factor that would end the Armenian Genocide!
3. CBS: "Which is probably why no U.S. president has uttered the word genocide."
This is a blatant lie, as we know that Reagan used the "G" word during his presidency!
4. It highlights the power imbalance between Armenia and Turkey and stresses Turkey's "importance" to the United States and so-called "regional superpower" status.
CBS: "The use of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the Turkish nation; it is a jailable offense..."
Why didn't CBS emphasize that the nonuse "of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the [Armenian] nation"?!
5. With the one-sided Armenia-Turkey protocols practically dead, the timing of this report is driven by a desire to "kill the bill" using the same immoral arguments and tactics that somehow "worked" in 2007.
Most congressional supporters of the Armenian Genocide resolution are not that foolish and will not buy into these denialist measures.
When the House passed similar legislation in the late 1970s and early 1980s, Turkey didn't and couldn't retaliate! All it did was cry and verbally abuse the United States, and days later, everything was back to normal.
This righteous bill will again pass in the Foreign Relations Committee and advance to the House floor for a full and successful vote!
Most Jews that I know support the resolution. JINSA does not represent the views of most Jews, whose sympathies are in solidarity with the Armenian people. Jewish-Americans and Armenian-Americans should support each other.
Dear Mr. Vahramian and Mr. Oskanyan,
Keeping in the spirit of your comments, I feel the only appropriate reply is a quote Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks!"
-Zaven
It seems the few turkish slaps to Israel last year was not enough to wake up these shameful jewish organisations.A proper beating is needed!The way it is going it will soon arrive!Two arrogant nations deserve each other.
If Israel & these jewish organisations deny the Armenian Genocide then it is their moral loss!
Makes me puke on these idiots!
This article is very truthful. It does not share the same values as I have, but realistic none-the-less. For this reason, I no longer have any compassion towards JINSA or the people it represents.
Outrageous. Imagine if the US Congress had no right to recognize the Holocaust against the Jews by nazi Germany! What kind of utterly stupid nonsense is that!! The US Congress has passed all kinds of bills commemorating and acknowledging many events of history around the world, concerning countries everywhere. How flimsy is this stupidity these people paddle ??? So, Congress shouldn't think about anything but keep its eyes, ears and mouth shut? Congress should not forget this took place by one of those countries allied AGAINST the US in World War I, precisely because the Armenian population had so much interactivity with Western -- especially American -- institutions. In and around Kharpert, where there was so much established by US institutions (like an American college for women, for example) was the fiercest of the slaughter, for precisely that reason. US involvement in genocide relief was total: it was the first international mission of the American Red Cross. The Armenian Genocide was and remains a historical even in which the United States was fully engaged; Ambassador Morgenthau and his subordinates who left their memoirs for us make that clear enough to everyone.
Sympathies are fine and appreciated. With all due respects what are those same American Jewry doing about it? They still have the likes of Abraham Foxman representing them. Are the American Jewry calling their Congressman in support of House resolution recognizing the Armenian genocide? Are the American Jewry protesting and demonstrating against the genocide deniers? Are the American Jewry discussing this with their local, regional, and national leaders? Actions speak louder than sympathies.
What did the quote by Adolf Hitler that is engraved on one of the walls of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG
It was with great pleasure and interest that I read the story about Christine Varadian-Johnsen. She is meeting the challenge of blending both the Armenian and Norwegian cultures for herself and her children. She must be congratulaled for being so flexible. Continued success and happiness to the Norwegian-Armenian clan. Great story.
Great analysis Mr Sassounian, I love reading your articles. What I love about this is the timing it aired on CBS and not on the usual channel like PBS who airs segments on Armenians and Genocide issues followed by a fundraising. Isn't it interesting however that segments like this seem to surface only when Israel and Turkey are not in good terms... I think the Armenian Genocide issue is an important card which Israel plays only when necessary...
I sent the following e-mail to info@jinsa.org. It would be helpful if others do something similar.
The report is available at http://www.jinsa.org/node/1316.
"
Re: JINSA Report #968
Hello,
I would like to express my disappoint that an organization such as JINSA would target the Armenian community around the world in its condemnation of the Congressional resolution recognizing the Armenian Genocide which took place in the dying days of the Ottoman Empire.
The zero-sum triangular game which you perceive among the Jewish and Armenian communities along with Turkey is unreasonable. This is a moral question, and your moral position - especially as a Jewish organization - is highly discouraging.
Besides which, the United States was instrumental in innumerable ways when it came to dealing with the Armenian Genocide at the time, and with the subsequent fate of the Armenian people, apart from being a safe haven for refugees and their descendants. Then-president Woodrow Wilson is considered to be a national hero by Armenians. The country was even almost an American mandate under the League of Nations. Please see Peter Balakian's ground-breaking work, The Burning Tigris, for a demonstration of how the American response to the Armenian Genocide was the first major humanitarian effort of this nation in its history.
I would urge your organization to set aside its spiteful political calculations, which help no-one but only serve to harm proper intentions and reduce the reputation of Jewish establishments.
Thank you,
Nareg Seferian
"
There is overwhelming evidence that the genocide committed against Armenian, Greek and Syrian Christians (often labeled the Armenian genocide) took place under the leadership of the Ottoman Turk authorities with the aid and assistance of Kurdish and Circassian civilians who inhabited the regions of eastern Anatolia in greater numbers than Turks.
60 minutes will show you part of the evidence if you care to watch their most recent broadcast:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6253043n
The official denial is represented by the Turkish official seen in the video who clearly falls back on the case that it was merely deportation, not genocide, when in fact it was both and the deportation demonstrates the systematic state involvement. Many of the Syrian Christians were targeted by Kurdish irregulars in their towns and villages, so their graves are until this day being discovered in caves and near rivers where their bodies were dumped and burned. The video shows a cave that was used as a make shift gas chamber, so indeed this genocide is the precursor and prototype for the Nazi perpetrated holocaust of WWII that inflicted the same horrific fate upon Jews and others.
Shame on JINSA for siding with holocaust deniers for the sake of political support of Israel and shame on Israel for taking the same stand with respect to this issue.
You're definitely right on this one... I'm sure Turkey pays the Times to downgrade their Armenian coverage.
My real question is, is it congress' place to dole out US tax money to Israel in the Billions under the guise of "aid" and "ally" when we are hurting here at this time. STOP THE MONEY FLOW TO ISRAEL and help the unemployed American!
To Robert whom thinks Armenian demands are in vain. I guess the Turks have propaganded you to. Shame on you to think the way you do. If this world does not help the small nations for the disasters that befell them, then the whole world is in trouble. Where are our Human Rights today? My father & mother whom lived in different provences in Historic Armenia lost their wives, their husbands, their children, and many relatives that we will never put aside. We will fight with our lives to the end until justice is served. The Turks whom became Moslems have destroyed the 33 million Christians whom lived in Asia Minor. Today it is 99% Moslems. Do you Robert believe in all the massacres the Turks have created since 1064 to the present, not counting the millions they have Moslemized. If you do, then you are as sick as the evil Turk.
My Jewish friends would be singing quite a different tune if we were talking about the Holocaust. But then our government beat a confession and apology out the the Germans after WWII so the outcome was different for the Jews than what the Armenians now face.
Ironic how [some of] the very people that SHOULD understand the potential of denying the very event that one of their own even coined the word Genocide for, would fail so miserably to be sympathetic.
Hey - I've got a SPLENDID idea! Why don't we all go post our comments on the JINSA site?? I mean we're selling snow to the Eskimos here, preaching to the choir, you know?
The incredible statements by JINSA give more reasonto pass this resolution. It's for such stupid (and offensive) statements that warrant this resolution in the first place.
It's good to know that Christine Varadian is putting an effort to keep her Armenian ancestry. Wouldn't it be better, however, if she had married an Armenian...?
With mixed marriages surpassing 70-80% in certain communities, what we are seeing is the slow death of our nation. On the contrary, Turkey's population is increasing at about 450,000 EACH YEAR...
I am afraid that both Berj Jololian and Kevork, your justified cynicism towards the U.S. Congressional caucus is more than justified. There were many defeitist conducts by CBS and I am not at all very eager to thank them; when indeed if it was the Haulocaust the Zionist Jews would NEVER go knocking on the door of the neo-Nazis and give them any chance to deny the Haulocaust. All your arguments and fact that they never mentioned about restitution and reparations of our Western Armenian historical homeland that it has been Armenia for over 8 thousand years was never mentioned. Yet the Zionist Jews after 2 thousand years and plus they went to Palestine to claim their lands back. Where is ours???? Where is our own Western Armenian homeland rights???? Where is the Sevres Treaties Legal rights????? Where is the Wilson Arbitration Award that is a LEGAL DOCUMENT????? No mention of it by CBS and many many misrepresentations to fool the people in the US. We have the Wilson Arbitration Award that every Armenian has to cry over their voices to claim it!!!
Israel receives US $100 million dollars every 10 days from the US tax payers money.
If the Genocide Resolutions both in the House & Senate don't get passed this year, I will lose my hope in future Congressman & Senators for putting this well documented Armenian Genocide to one side just because of Turkish pressure and the help the Jewish Lobby has given to Turkey. Thirty (30) countries around the world have recognized this 1st Genocide of the 20th century and is documented in the Turkish Archives on the trials of those Turks whom were found guilty after the 1st World War. They were all found guilty, which included Talaat Pasha, Jemal Pasha, & Djvit Bey & hundreds of others. What kind of a country do we live in this supposedly free Democracy that denies the truth of what happened to the dissapearance of the 4 thousand year old Armenian People from their historic homeland, now in ruins done by the Turks. Thousands of their churches destroyed, no trace of their cemeterias, their people massacred or moslemized & dispersed to the four corners of the world. The Turks are no longer Turks, they have blood of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Nestorians, Kurds, Bulgarians, Georgians, etc. thru forcible assimilation down thru the centuries. Why doesn't the world nations look at the facts and take action against the evil Turk.
When the record is clear and substantiated by former US presidents, reputable newspapers, international court, E.U., independent nations, and eyewitness U.S. diplomats, even a miracle would not sway a self -serving Denialist. A denialist that has not truly investigated history is motivated by self interest only.
Those that contribute to deny the hurting of Holocaust and Genocide become no better than the
actual beneficiaries.
Stop the cover up, TRUTH always triumph.
Has Morality, Honesty, and Integrity gone out the window because of purely selfish geo-political
interest? If that is the case, why not also teach the same in your schools?
If we have as much courage as any of the 20 nations that have properly affirmed the Armenian Genocide we should examplify that political and moral courage. That's what made the true American character and that's what made America the land of the free and brave.
If Turkish Government starts to overtly and frankly speak about the fact of state terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and Turkish-Armenian banditism of the beginning of the 20th century, then the so-called Turkish nation will flourish, and today's Armenians will remain the same boastful people likewise Munhausen. Turkish hardness keeps away the Armenia Government grow into a full bastard. That's why, I appreciate Turkishness.
Thanks Paul for your thoughts on the state of affairs of armenian music .
Honestly ,I do not understand the fuss about Eurovision. It is a joke, no body takes it seriously in Europe. Have you ever seen that Aznavour or a respectable french, british Coldplay or other serious artist for that matter, participate in Eurovision? After all England is the place for music. yet look what was Englands presentation like , how silly and stupid were Germany 's, France's and Austria's numbers.
I think it is high time to spent less energy and resources on Eurovision. The form (shlager)and the strict framework of the contest limits the chances for presenting real music.
It is just fun for kids. what is essential here on this side of the atlantic is the selection process and the feast that accompanies it.
suzanne
There are "full" Armenian families that are more out of tune with their culture than this family, Hagop M. I hate that comments of this sort appear so often, and especially when the ENTIRE POINT of the article is that mixed marriages do not always spell assimilation.
Their hypocrisy doesn't know the limits. It's not the job of the Congress to discus the genocide that happenned but it has to weigh in on even on something that will never happen if the G word even hinted at Jews. In 2007 The US House of Representatives passed a resolution calling on the UN Security Council to charge Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with violating international laws pertaining to genocide by calling for the destruction of Israel. They think 1.5 million people dont deserve Congress' time but Congress passed resolution in 2009 condemning the violent attack on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on June 10, 2009. They even think it's Congresses job to sensor Arab media. In 2008 House passes resolution that condemns the restrictions on freedom of the press and expression in the Arab world and the widespread presence of anti-Semitic material, Holocaust denial, and incitement to violence in the Arab media.
They don't think it's US governments job to weigh in on the history but it is US government's job to submit the draft resolution to the UN General Assembly condemning Holocaust denial.
you can demand blood from a stone, but will you get it? however, if an earthquake breaks the stone in a natural way, you just may be in luck.
Thank you, Armenian Weekly, for highlighting the important role of volunteering in Armenia!
Interesting, Mark. That certainly applies to some volunteers but if you have information about how it applies more generally, please pass it along.
If you haven't read the book THE ISRAEL LOBBY, then read it and promote it. It should give insight to lobbying tactics/efforts for many groups.
JINSA does not speak for anyone but their own virtually unknown fringe organization. And even they acknowledge the genocide but claim that it's somehow not appropriate for the US to issue resolutions about things that happen in foreign countries a long time ago (???!!!). Let's see how Jewish Congressmen like Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and Barbara Boxer of California vote. Stop the anti-semitic comments, please, especially when we're discussing the Armenian genocide.
I am Turkish living in an Armanian neigbourhood. I am not going to argue the points made here since I know for a fact that we will all end up at the library like the historians have in the past. At the end, none of this will take us anywhere. If Armanians or supporters of Armania expect a Turkish citizen, let alone a minister to apologise for any so called Genocide, then I suggest dont waste your time waiting for such. No one who is born a Turk will apologise for anything. I know it sounds harsh and very proud and patriotic however this is exactly the case, Turks are a very proud nation and if they done something then there must have been a reason for it.(as far as Turks consider)
One writer here complains about his grandmother or family being raped and murdered by Ottomans back in the time and is still in sorrow. I try to understand his pain and curse against this unfair situation however, his brother in Turkey is also in the same level of hatred against the Armanian that murdered his Turkish grandfather. One is called a genocide because 1.5 million is dead. What do you call the other then...when only a 1000 is killed, its just ok but not ok when its 1.5million. Come on guys, I personally dont think Ottoman was an empire that would practice genocide however even if they did then there must have been a reason for it, some sort of push must have been there and looking at how Armanians behave today, I can see how this was possible.
A country in a very valuable geographical position, Turkey. Yes and its the only thing they have left and in order to keep the damn place, they had to fight the French, Greeks, Brits and those backstabbers in the inside of the country whether it be Armanians, the Kurds or the Arabs. Anyway, I wish we were left alone and in peace for just once since the Turks today do nothing but watch countries like Untited States practicing Genocide against the Muslims. Taking over countries and causing the death of people for the sake of money and land. At least, Ottoman as we know it never done such. And one last note for Armanians, you have waited 95 years for what? Well, what ever it is, you must be used to it by now and that is good cause get used to it. until you have the army strong enough to take over Turkey, you ought to wait. Glad I wont see it in my life time. You should feel lucky that you have no petrol or else US would have taken over your land already and who knows, maybe one day you beloved ancestors of Ottamans may knock on your door and just walk in.
Enough is enough, historians should talk not anyone who has a bleeding pc and fingers to type on just for the sake of showing Turkish hatred.
US citizens, you should be more involved in your close history. One have hard time understanding how such democrat people of democratic country can throw such heavy words such as genocide..we would like to know why your soldiers are raping and killing innocent people of Iraq and Afganistan? Who is to judge you and have a case against you? Everyone will pay for what they did, let it be the Turks and their past empire or the Americans and their (almost) past empire.
For the first time, the administration is not actively opposing Armenian genocide recognition. Yes, they may not be jumping up and down supporting it (which would be against American interests), but everyone recognizes that their silence and non-opposition is a loud and clear endorsement. Hurray for the present Administration! Also, hurray for Jewish Senators and Congressmen like Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, Barbara Boxer of California, and resolution co-sponsor Adam Schiff of California, all staunch supporters of the Resolution. They are doing so despite the possibly negative implications for their people now living in Turkey and Israel. Let's hope, if the resolution passes, that the Turks don't take it out on the tiny numbers of Jews in the middle east and Turkey.
I PERFECTLY UNDERSTAND ARMENIAN POINT OF YOU, THAT YOU FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 1914-15 AT EAST OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE, YOU CALLED GENOCIDE, TURKS REFUSE TO ACCEPT SUCH A WORD…..YOU SOLLY BLAME TURKS, WHAT HAPPENED DURING THAT TIME; YOU LIVED WITH TURKS AS A OTTOMAN CITIZENS BETWEEN 1071 TO 1914, ABOUT 900 YEARS; YOU LIVED SIDE BY SIDE IN VILLAGES, TOWNS AND CITIES. ALTHOUGH TURKS HAD THE POWER ALL DOES YEARS (900 YRS), THEY DECIDED TO NOT KILL ANY ARMENIANS. BUT, SUDDENLY THIS EVIL TURKS CHANGED THEIR MINE AND STARTED TO KILL YOU IN MILLIONS…COME ON, YOU CAN NOT CONVINCE ANYBODY LIKE THAT, YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO DOES PEOPLE THAT THEY TURNED THEM AGAINST YOU. IT IS MAY BE THAT WHEN OTTOMAN EMPIRE INVADED BY ORTHODOX RUSSIAN ARMIES, YOU WERE SIDED WITH THEM YOU WEAR RUSSIAN MILITARY UNIFORMS GUIDED THEM INTO FURTHER LAND KILLING ALL THOSE TURKISH PEASANTS IN THEIR THOUSANDS, YOU COMMENCED ETHNIC CLEANSING WITH HELP OF YOUR RUSSIAN ARMY FRIENDS AT THE TIME. A COIN HAS TWO FACE BE HONEST TO YOURSELF AND THE WORLD…AT THE TIME YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU GOING TO GET GREAT ARMENIA, AT EAST BORDERS OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE WITH HELP OF YOUR RUSSIAN FRIENDS, BUT IT DID NOT WORK OUT YOUR WAY….ARMENIAN PEOPLE IN OTTOMAN EMPIRE HAS THE SAME RIGHTS AS ANYONE ELSE, BUT; LEAD BY ARMENIAN CHURCH THAT THEY WILL SIDED WITH RUSSIAN ARMIES AND START KILLING THEIR NEIGHBOURS AND FRIENDS, THEY DID NOT REGARD ANY MERCY ON THEM, MORE FORTUNATE TURKS INLAND THEY START FLEEING INWARDS, AND ONE OF THEM WAS MY GREAT GRAND FATHER….NO MORE LIES….TURKISH GOVERNMENT OFFERED INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL ENQUIRY ABOUT THIS EVENTS AND DECLARE TO OPEN ALL HER ARCHIVES. ASKED SAME THING TO ARMENIA, RUSSIA AND THE OTHERS..BUT ARMENIA DECLINED THE OFFER…..
I BELIEVE TURKS HAD REVENGE ATTACKS ON ARMENIANS, AFTER WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, THEY FORCED TO OUT WERE THEY COMMITTED THEIR CRIMES…..
AS A TURKISH CITIZEN I WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO SEE THIS SUBJECT TO BE ENQUIRED BY INTERNATIONAL HISTORIANS AND SCIENTISTS, I AM VERY HAPPY THAT TURKISH GOVERMENT DECLARED TO OPEN ALL RELATED ARCHIVES…
when i was 5 yrs old,living in philly,cause thats where mom and dad came to from aman jordan.she taught me the saying,"hye em,yes-hye em yes-kotch Vartan torn em yes".what a great read. thank you..........azad hiaston!
The biggest support for Armenians typically come from Jewish historians and Jewish politicians. The vast majority of Jews also sympathize with Armenians and even some of the minority that are against acknowledgment of the Genocide do so not because they believe or trust Turks, but for real-politik (but that group is growing smaller by the day). Its interesting how the Turks are parading the JINSA article as supports when in fact Valeriy is correct, JINSA agrees it was Genocide but are clinging to the belief that Turkey will somehow remain pro Israel. That ship has sailed.
Why would the Jews and the Armenians help eachother? They're two completely different people and don't have much in common. Israel is a friend of Turkey. Turkey plays a major role in the existence of the nation of Israel. Israel knows that, without Turkey, it couldn't survive. Armenia is not important enough for Israel and the Jews. Why would they bother to help them?
I'm sorry for my somewhat bad English. I'm from The Netherlands.
Dear Mr. Sassounian
Thank you again and again for all your articles.
Reading this last article, I remembered a comment made at a dinner in Paris by Patrick Devedjian, member of the French Parliament and the secretary of the governing UMP party. He said that maybe we Armenians should ''thank'' the Turkish governments for their denial of the Armenian genocide. The longer they deny, the more it is talked about. If it was accepted from day one, who would have talked about it in our days...?
Respectfully, Shake
Dear Yilmaz, while I think you may honestly want to understand what happened, I think you need more information about the actual history of what happened during the late Ottoman Empire, and the period where the Ittihad ve Terakki took control and decided to eliminate the Armenians. Yes, Armenians lived under Turkish rule for 900 years, and for many of those years probably lived better than most people in Europe or Russia at the time. They were not slaves or serfs, but no - they also were not 'equal' citizens. I would ask you to examine closely the characters of the Ittihad...and see how 'Turkish' they really were. Most of them were not true Turks at all, had only a marginal connection to Islam and no connection to anything historically Turkish or central Asian. They were a foreign element that stole control of the empire and manipulated it for their own purposes. They were not acting on behalf of the Empire or its citizens. They created wars on many fronts and bankrupted an ancient empire. Those people are the criminals who destroyed the Ottoman Empire and 25% of its population. I suggest you blame them, because they were fully responsible, not the Armenian victims of their murderous, racist and insane actions. Pick up a good history book, written outside of Turkey, and learn the facts. Taner Akcam comes to mind, but there are others as well. You can open your eyes and learn the truth, I'm sure. Then we can talk.
Kudos to the Hughes Bros. I just don't know that I would attribute the triats of "generosity and humbleness" (humility) to Armenians. Definitely not the latter. We Armenians are about as prideful as it gets. Not exactly an endearing trait.
I agree: enough with the anti-Semitic remarks. They don't help us.
What would help, ARMENIAN WEEKLY, if you are listening, is a story on how much money Turkey gets from the USA for those bases they keep threatening to demolish. This is the most hollow threat possible. I want to know how much US military aid Turkey is claiming they will give up if the genocide resolution passes!! This is the most bogus argument of all -- Turkey's big threats!
Reading the Turkish responses here is pathetic. "There must have been a reason." Oh my goodness, tell that to the makers of international law who wrote that Genocide is a CRIME. Period. Or the international lawmakers who wrote the Geneva Conventions and the law to PROTECT CIVILIANS IN WARTIME. What barbaric century are you living in? GROW UP!
Armenian Weekly -- as I suggested in another comment -- PLEASE do a story on the amount of money in military aid Turkey's threats indicate they are willing to give up in order to prevent the US from using bases in Turkey. How much money are the Turks willing to forgo from the US government in order to make good on their threats. This is the most hollow, empty, bogus excuse. I would like to read an article that truly examines the threats in depth and what they would mean for Turkey -- especially how much aid they'd give up in exchange for closing the use of those bases!
To those that say stop the "anti-Semitic remarks", the truth is the truth. It's pretty unsettling when the Jewish race, knowing full well the effects of being the victims of race extermination, while exerting every effort and opportunity to in list all others in its acknowledgment and condemnation, puts every effort forward to help obstruct and sometimes deny the mere rightful acknowledgment of another race’s extermination. That is what this is about. Self serving, morally bankrupt hypocrisy at it worst. I understand this, Jews are not the Armenians friends.
Imagine if the Armenian lobby or any organization put the same effort forward to obstruct very Jewish or Israeli agenda here in the US?
And by the way, if you justify so-called "revenge attacks" then what do you say to Israel's response to Hamas? (Even though the two situations are not comparable - the Armenians did nothing to Turkey compared to Hamas' activities.) What is your Prime Minister saying??? You cannot have it both ways!!! Imagine if 1.5 million Palestinians were murdered: men, women and children. Is that okay with you who post here about revenge???
The ideology of the perpetrators of the genocide and the ideology of islamic terrorism are rooted in the same values which believe that BOTH Christians and jews are to be subjugated, converted or killed. In the case of the Young Turks, they simply transformed the definition of being a Muslim to be a qualifier for being their newly defined "Turk" under Turkish nationalism. So, you were allowed to live if you were a Kurd, Circassian, or other Muslim citizen of Anatolia, although you were identified via Turkification as a Turk in the newly formed Republic of Turkey which kept the same flag of its Ottoman predecessor. Today, Iraq is being emptied of its Christians, and you only need to see the reports coming from Egypt, Malaysia, Algeria and other places where regardless of how small or how large the community of Christians is, they are targets. So, the root of the problem is in prejudice, and once the rest of the world is emptied of its Christians, piece by piece they will target the weakest non-Muslim societies to take over one by one. Cyprus, Greece, Russia, China, you name it and don't expect to get even the slightest bit of respect. So-called "tolerance" and equality are far from the same thing and any time the society encounters a problem, the Christians will pay for it with their blood, even if it is as simple as others' poverty.
So, passing a law against genocide is passing a law against the roots of the war on terror and enshrining in the value system of the United States its opposition to the value system of terror. It will educate americans the same way civil rights, human rights, and women's rights legislation guides american thought where it was previously deficient by raising human dignity to a new standard and making that an american standard and by extension a global standard.
I disagree with the idea that Israel needs Turkey to survive.
John wrote:
Imagine if the Armenian lobby or any organization put the same effort forward to obstruct very Jewish or Israeli agenda here in the US?
Well, that would be a pretty horrible thing to do, wouldn't it? I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that not everybody from one ethnic group is all the same.
PS Imagining if the Armenian lobbies ALL collectively lobbied against recognition of the Nazi Holocaust. Now THAT would be an absolutely horrible immoral thing to do. Undoubtedly, unthinkable. But, fortunately it's unthinkable.
Obama has no balls. He's strictly a one-term president for sure.
Bravo there "Concerned American". Your thoughts are correct although many would avoid expressing what those in the Middle East already know. I have a picture of my wife and her sisters holding their Kalashnikovs pulling their duty guarding the Armenian section of Beirut where the various factions would regularly raid the neighborhood and take any men - mostly young students even teenagers and shoot them in the head. These groups did this because the Armenians refused to take sides and instead exemplified real examples of their faith by trying to broker peace between the factions among whom they had many friends. If this sounds far off from now just remember - it was not 1915 - it was 1978. The past is closer than we think. And repeating it is easier than we think. And we Christians are naive if we think that good intentions are enough, case in point.
Again bravo.
Imagine if back in the days of West Germany the United States refrained from condemning the Holocaust for fear of offending a staunch NATO ally.
Joseph, trust me, Obama has "balls" - but his "balls" are owned by those who appointed him president.
Think about it for a moment...
I don't know if it's sad or funny, but every time American politicians pats us on the head before getting into office, we think - THIS IS IT!
Watching the Congressional hearing live, the following occurred to me:
1. The genocide issue is not a bilateral issue between Turkey and Armenia, nor the US and Turkey:
The issue talks about the Ottoman empire and the US historical record on the issue for one. More so, the victims of the genocide were all subjects of the Ottoman empire in territories once part of the Ottoman empire. In that sense, any consequences from recognition could be as much applied to any successor state, meaning Armenia itself, Turkey or even Syria as successor states. The Turks take issue because they fear legal repercussions which will lead perhaps to reparations and demands to restore the property rights of the victims of which they would bear the greatest responsibility. Criminals always have every incentive to try to protect themselves from justice by denying the crime.
2. However, if both sides are supposedly equally at fault as the Turkish government claims, then they should want to see justice prevail and reparations and restoration of property should equally benefit Armenians, Turks and others who were victims. So, Turkey would be leading the effort to see that all parties had their rights restored, regardless of their ethnicity. Otherwise, if they are basically denying the crimes so that they can inherit the spoils which makes them accomplices, in fact incriminating themselves rather than absolving themselves of guilt. Therefore, it is Turkey's behavior that is in fact making this a legal issue for Turkey which makes the operative word "genocide" something that they fear so greatly.
3. Finally, the US needs to pass this resolution for the sake of our social evolution as a society. Our constitution and the legal system from which it derives enshrines our values as a society. Therefore, we must not allow interest based politics and business-politics to trump our value system otherwise our society will disintegrate at the hands of special interests rather than be strengthened by values. It is in fact interest based politics that allows a government to single out minority groups and justify their persecution under the law and it is the law that allows people to rationalize these practices as permissible within their value system. Afterall, as a society, we too are the successors of the old world, and our very existence as a country is in direct opposition to some aspect of the societies from which we each emigrated. Our constitution is derived from opposition to practices which were inflicted upon us by the old world, so it is not only our right but the foundations or our country were laid by legislating against the old world.
4. In legal matters, legal precedents can inform the verdict of future cases. By legislating on genocide, future cases will be clearer and can perhaps be prevented if eventually action is taken to extend the consequences of the recognition of genocide toward reparations and restoration of property and perhaps punitive measures in any instances of genocide.
5. The United States should not be concerned with whether or not we will lose Turkey as an ally if we are acting on the side of justice and truth. The question we should concern ourselves with is why do we ally ourselves with a country whose founding ideology shares the same roots of our current enemy, Al-Qaeda? and whose leader is on record defending genocide in Sudan by saying that the President is a Muslim and Muslims do not commit genocide! Perhaps we should be at war with Turkey in the war on terror rather than be worried about what they think of us. If we shared the same values, we would share the same causes and be heading in the same future direction, not simply extending the timeframe before which our values must clash or surrendering our values for interest based and business based politics at the expense of our long term national security. Turkey is already building strong relations with Iran based on their shared values, so why should we try to placate them while they organize against us directly and indirectly? They have a long term vision and it will look a lot like 1915-1923 and that is based on their values. The least we could do is speak out against it, when we should really be acting out against it!
I thank the Armenian American community for drawing attention to our own poor foreign policy choices and the potential consequences, and as the first real victims of not only the genocides of the 20th century (and far earlier), but also as the first victims of the war on terror!
What is bothering me is that we cannot make arab and muslim countries accept Israel, that they are intolerant to a religious minority in their presense, whether Jewish or Christian. Turkey and Iran were the only countries to accept Israel. With the Shah gone, that leaves Turkey. No one can guarantee that Turkey will continue to keep ties with Israel, although I read once in the past they broke off ties completely and relations were worse. With more and more Christians leaving the Middle East, I wonder what future does any tiny fish (Jewish or Christian) have in the bigger pond; I am sure it is troubling Israel.
Also troubling, I must agree with some of your analysts, is the inability of Turkey and Azerbaijan to accept your Armenian lands as yours and not as occupied territory. I read about the Armenian history in these NK lands, what the soviets did to weaken revolt by changing national boundaries and deporting people to the far ends of the soviet union to break up tribes, and saw what you have done to rebuild the historical monuments and bring tourism there. To me, this region belongs to Armenia and is not occupied land. Many in the Middle East don't accept Israel and consider the whole Israel as "occupied land"; so I think the Jewish and Armenian nationalists are fighting the same fight. We can "blackmail" Turkey with the Armenian genocide recognition every year, but will that force the larger muslim nations into becoming more tolerant people accepting of Jewish and Christian minorities in their presence. No one wants another genocide, whether of Jews or Christians in the Middle East. These people have suffered too much due to muslim intolerance.
So Obama's charisma may be good for America, Israel and the world because his mixed background is an example of tolerance and fights racism. However, it is nations' clinging to racial ideology that is hindering any progress to peace and reconciliation in the Middle East. If people would give up their racial ideology, I am sure more progress would be made towards peace, solving the Israel-Palestinian problem and the NK problem.
I can't guarantee to you that will happen though. One can always hope for the best.
The United States was founded on the principle of religious tolerance, the idea of a "melting pot" for all people.
Evolution is social. Evolution of mankind may lead to more intermixing of people, which would be contrary to all racial intolerant and national movements. If evolution is the primary trend and scientific evolution is proven correct and that is the road we are on, how many hundreds or thousands of years will that take?
So although nationalism is strong today, will evolution overtake it eventually?
Read your story about the Armenian-Norwegian family and my intermixed Armenian-Jewish family; will these be the families of the future? Right now, the nationalists don't like the intermixed people, but they could be the people of the future.
Turkey certainly is holding on to a racial ideology according to the material on genocide on the change.org website and that is the reason they don't accept the Armenian genocide; they are still believing themselves to be the ubermensch. However, how many Armenians have they discovered were hidden by Turks, some who they discovered are their grandmothers or hidden by their grandmothers. How many of the hidden or converted are Armenians. Pretty soon they may discover "we are all Armenian" indeed.
AS USUAL THE CONTINUOUS U.S. GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN BETRAYING THE WORLD AND SPECIALLY TO US THE ARMENIANS, USING AS EXCUSE THEIR SHELFISH INTERESTS.
I AS AN ARMENIAN, LIVING IN CANADA WHOSE PARENTS AND GRANDMOTHERS HAVE TO FLEE THE TERRITORIES OCUPIED BY TURKEY TO SAVE THEIR LIVES DURING THE GENOCIDE, HAD SOME HOPE PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS SOMEBODY WHO THE WORLD COULD TRUST, BUT I AM SORRY TO SAY HE IS ANOTHER LIAR AND A TRAITOR TO HUMANITY.
I CAN NOT MODERATE MY WORDS, THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL AND SUFFER THINKING OF 1:500.000 THAT WERE SLAUGHTERED WHILE THE WORLD DID NOTHING, AND PRESIDENT OBAMA AND HILLARY CLINTON SHAMEFULLY HIDE THEIR HEADS IN BETWEEN THEIR LEGS.
Go to www.NoPlaceForDenial.com.
It tells the entire story of the successful Armenian American campaign against the genocide denials of the Anti-Defamation League, which has the same anti-Armenian views as JINSA and the AJC.
14 cities in Massachusetts severed ties with the ADL's "No Place for Hate" program, beginning in the summer of 2007, as did the Massachusetts Municipal Association, which represents every city and town in the state.
There are plenty of other ADL chapters of NPFH throughout the country, as well as many other ADL programs, including around Los Angeles.
Does anyone out there wish to to do what Massachusetts Armenians have done and go after the ADL (making international news), or are we all just blowing smoke and wasting our time here?
Dear Concerned American, I am with you and you made very good analysis why America should stand strong and approve the Armenian Genocide Resolution rather than act cowardly and oppose it. I was listening to the Senators, their yes or no choices while they gave their speech within the five minute span of time that was granted to them. One senator was opposing it that the time now is not good; because of this or of that reason; because of the protocols and because we still have an army in Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Then the House Chairman, Mr. Howard Berman stopped him and said; I have been in here in this Senate for 27 years and every time that this Resolution is brough up to the Senate, they say that the time is not right for now, then he went on saying; when is the right time? Is there any time that is right or it shall be right? How true Mr. Berman, how very true!!!!
Then Mr. Ackerman gave his five minute speech and said that the United States stopped France from acknowledging the Armenian Genocide; later on France acknowledged it anyhow and today the Turkish government politically and economically has even expanded rather than decreased their alliances and their economy. The same happened with numerous other countries; and he named them one by one. Mr. Sherman then went on saying that America is acting cowardly by not accepting the First Genocide of the 20th Century, and we are going backwards with Turkey on this rather than forward. The US helps Turkey a great deal, economically and in many ways as an ally.
Frankly, (and these are now my words) that the US does much more than Turkey helps the US. Turkey declined to support the US at the Gulf War times to grant land for the our army. Thus Turkey is the one who needs U.S.' help rather than the other way around. America must stop acting cowardly and give in to Turkey to decline the Genocide Resolution. Like my friend above said; America must help Armenia to go forward for the sake of our social evolution as a society. If the United Sates is so concerned to see that peace and order is in the caucus between Armenia and Turkey, then wouldn't it be the first step to recognize the Armenian Genocide, so that real peace and order will materialize between the two countries?
Furthermore, how can Turkey, which has been a denyalist country for 95 years come to terms with the victim country Armenia to settle the Genocide between them? It's like asking the Jews and Israel that had seen the Haulocaust of 6 Million Jews killed by the hands of the Nazis to come to terms with the Nazi Germany to accept the Haulocaust. If the world didn't command Germany to accept their crimes and give reparations to the Jews from the Haulocaust; the Germans would not have accepted their crimes nor given repartions to the Jews.
I am very confident that Obama will continue his work and officially call it GENOCIDE. Thanks to the strong politicians who value human lives and history.
Beemer.
Concerned American wrote:
So, passing a law against genocide is passing a law against the roots of the war on terror and enshrining in the value system of the United States its opposition to the value system of terror. It will educate americans the same way civil rights, human rights, and women’s rights legislation guides american thought where it was previously deficient by raising human dignity to a new standard and making that an american standard and by extension a global standard.
Bravo!!
It passed!!!!!!!
This is not your guys business!! liers will pay this!!!!
Mr. Obama is making even a graver mistake than Mr. Bush did in 2003.
Bravo! The heavenly powers are working in the right way.
It means that a revolt is starting in the Muslim World.
My thanks and appreciation goes to Mr. Howard Berman, Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Sherman, Mr. Watson, Mr. Searis, Mr. Berkley, Mr. Skipper, Mr. Smith, Mr. Manzilo, Mr. Roth, Mr. Billarakis of Florida, Mr. Payne, Mr. Gallaghy, Mr. Coach, Mr. Colronoseira, Mr. Engle, Mr. Roerbocker, Mr. Kline of Florida, Ms. or Mr. Keith Allison, Mr. Lee of California, Mr. Green of Texas, Ms. Wolsie of California, Mr. Crowley of New York and Ms. Jackson-Lee of Texax.
I thank each and every one of the Senators above in their stand for truth and for justice in the world. Believe me dear Senators, your stand will be a good role model for the world to see and to have peace around the globe. It shall act against bullies like Omar El Bashir of Sudan, Turkey and many others. It shall put a stop to persecutions, annihilations, ethnic cleansing, Genocide, Haulocaust and terrorism.
Hocali? Anybody ever heard about what happened there?
Turkey is bluffing.
It can do nothing substantive to retaliate. It has done nothing in the past when similar resolutions passed the US House (1975 and 1984) - see www.Armenian-genocide.org. Think about it, a superpower, the US, is supposed to grovel at the feet of a lousy, fraudulent, backward country like Turkey? This makes no sense.
Turkey did next to nothing when other countries and the EU Parliament officially acknowledged the Genocide, and yet when a superpower - the ONLY superpower - acknowledges it, this pip-squeak of a lying pseudo-nation called Turkey is going to punish the US?
Please. This is too ridiculous for words. Of course, the White House wants you to think that Turkey will retaliate. Obama and Hillary want to scare Congress and the American people so that the genocide resolution will not pass. Hence, they both grovel at Erdogan's feet and make us all ashamed to be Americans. Obama has lost whatever principles he may have had, while Hillary never had any to begin with.
I suggest that everyone who has not read this fine publication by ANCA ( http://www.anca.org/endthegagrule/briefingbook.pdf ) print it out and curl up with it tonight for a good read. And, please, blog the websites that are printing negative and misleading information about the resolution and the non-ability of the Turkish pseudo-nation to punish the US.
I telephoned Mr. MacMahon's office to take him to task for his stand. 1.5 million people killed for their Christian religion nearly 95 years ago is not something to cover up. To help cover this up sends what kind of message to the terrorists?!?!! Since when is Turkey going to give up all the military money we give them in order to exert control on our Congress? Give up bakshessh you have got to be kidding me!!
I also telephoned Mr. Ackerman's office to thank him for his words. I encourage everyone to telephone the Congressmen to thank them for their strong support.
Armenia will be happy to become a full partner of NATO and have bases to help the US if Turkey wants to PULL OUT!! haha!!
I didn't say THIS CASE spelled assimilation, but most cases do.
Armenians have to get angry and savvy enough to march up to the papers and writers who are spreading Turkish propaganda and lies about Armenians and give them an earful. When enough Armenians do this, things will change.
Amenian Genecide must be reconized as a fact in history and Turkes must acknowledge it and must give the Armenian Lands back. United Nation must hold Turkes responsiable of the act and must claim April 24th as a mourning day in the history of Humanity.
I'm sure he is terrified, Mr. Jeshmaridian.. I mean really, do you people actually believe what you write? To even call it a "mistake" bluntly suggests you have no understanding of our true political value in the US...
Genocide denial, please don’t ever attempt to speak for us Christians again. Before the apartheid state of Israel was founded by Zionists, Christians and Muslims in the Middle East were doing very well. We Armenians have had a long history in Arab lands and Persia. We know these people very well, like we know your ethnic kin. The biggest problem we Armenians have in Jerusalem today is Jews, not Palestinians. Preach to brain-dead Evangelicals.
To those in the committee who are concerned about Turkey cutting ties with the US. Really? Turkey is going to cut off their ties with the country they want to be aligned with most of all [USA] AND the European Union? That would totally destroy their economy and their place as a growing world power. That doesn't make sense.
The names of the representatives who voted against H.Res.252 should be displayed on a 'wall of shame', and the sources of their campaign financing should be prominently displayed.
Yes we can be honorable!
Sireli, hargeli, hiyanali, Admin: What's wrong with Hebrewtales? I came up with it and I happen to like it... Why can't I use it?
Hey William,
You're here, aren't you. What does that say about you?
As for John, you're absolutely right...Every single Turk in the world is a paid agent, and we ONLY read what are handlers give us! John, anyone ever tell you that you're a real joke!! Try to use a little semblence of logic in your posts next time.
Great, inspiring story!
I am researching my Armenian roots. Part of the family was masacered in Turkey in late 19th century. The remainder ran to Northern Caucas and then to an Armenian diaspora in Asrakhan, Russia. One thing made me really interested in this article: the doctor by the last name Yacoubian. Part of my family has last names Yacoubianz. I do not know if it is a common last name among Armenians or not, but I certainly would like to find out more. Another last name is Bek-Houbianz (Russian version — Bekkhubov). Who knows? Maybe I will hear something. Thank you very much in advance.
Hey Nairian,
We're all still waiting for you to comment on all of the deaths of countless moslems and non-moslems at the hands of the dashnaks! How about it? Care to tackle this one...if you think you can!
Life was not that rosy according to my textbook on the Middle East. Although a rich bourgeoisie did enjoy a good life in Jerusalem (Ottoman time), the outside foreign "cultural" influences began to be resented by the muslims (beginning of the Islamists) who also did not at all like Woman's Liberation. Also, the Great Depression and rising arab nationalism transformed the old Palestine and Ottoman Empire and ravaged the bourgeoisie.
Hey Hilma,
How long will you be living in your dream world? When are you all going to fess up to the mass genocides committed by dashnaks upon countless Moslems and non-Moslems alike? Also, please answer this simple question...Assuming that all of your dreams came true, which country will risk everything to try and take even a square millimeter of Turkish soil, or to try and get a single penny from the Turkish treasury, and GIVE it to a backwater, corrupt, broke, religiously oppressed nation, with a massive exodus (6,000/month), like Armenia? What's in it for anybody? NOTHING! Of course, Armenia can try and take things from us on their own, via military action, but we all know that you won't "make our day" by doing so! No need to even discuss what would happen if you even tried such an unwise stunt. Other than that, what have you really acomplished? Your bought off politicians are too brain dead to realize that their actions today will only widen the rift between Turkey and the US. 70%-80% of all military supplies to Iraq and Afghanistan go through Turkey. We may just decide that we've had enough of being stabbed in the back by an ally and supposed friend and close down Incirlik Air Base, as well as closing down all air space. Let's see then how the families of the soldiers there will view the House committee's vote, and the Armenian arm-twisting and incessant whining which lead up to it! Seriously, you all didn't really think this thing through very well, did you?
He should keep his stupid message to himself. Unless you are going to refer to it as Genocide, as you promised before we elected you, don't even waste my time with another BS speech.
Today is indeed a VICTORY FOR THE DESCENDANTS OF THE TRIBES OF NAIRI!
TRUTH SHOULD ALWAY PREVAIL NO MATTER WHAT! AFTER TRUTH JUSTICE & RESTITUTION SHOULD INDEED FOLLOW! WE HAVE WAITED A LONG ENOUGH TIME!!!! Lawyers call this 'corrollary relief!'
Avetis, I did take a course on the Middle East. The current rise in islamists in muslim countries is due to the breakdown of the social contract with the poor, where the economies are getting too poor to pay for social welfare; therefore the poor are given and take money from the islamists. There is trouble in Egypt, Turkey, etc. Islamists would be communists; they are interchangeable.
According to my post above, muslims in the 1920's (maybe more of the poor) did not like foreign influences and woman's liberation; this was long before there was even an Israel in the neighborhood. Personally, I cannot stand Iran where women are stoned and homosexuals hanged. To me this is morally wrong, in addition to how they are maltreating the opposition. But they are a patriarchy and this is acceptable to them, but wrong to us. I don't approve of the same prejudice in Jews.
But you are living in a dream world, Avetis, if you think the rich bourgeoisie life was shared by all and that many were not jealous or didn't approve who were poor or preferred their own culture.
These may be some of the reasons Israel is not welcome to the neighborhood.
Your text book on the Middle East is a Hebrewtale. The Middle East was on the verge of a widespread secular/nationalistic revolution between the times of the first and second world wars. For the exploitation of oil wealth in the region and for securing the illegal existence of the Zionist state - Western/Jewish organized assassinations and coups radicalized the Middle East. Islamic fundamentalism is the creation of Western and Israeli intelligence services - much like the so-called Al Qaeda and the Taliban... Nonetheless, until their lands were forcibly occupied by Zionist colonists, Palestinians were never Islamic fundamentalists. Until the Zionist state began subverting Lebanon, there never were Islamic fundamentalists in Lebanon. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq... they never had Islamic fundamentalists - until your kin decided to settle there and wreak havoc. If you want to see the real problem in the Middle East - then take a close look at yourself in the mirror. Like I said your tales, your agendas don't work with us Armenians.
I suggest you put down your "textbook" and relearn history. This RT interview is a good start:
"We are a normal people living in an abnormal region... When my grandparents came from Russia 150 years ago, they came with a [Torah] in one hand and a rifle in another, and his hand was extended to the Arabs who lived here. Some did make business with him, others who fought him had to meet the wrath of his rifle. And that's how you live in the Middle East."
Dr. Raanan Gissin, former senior political adviser to Areil Sharon
CrossTalk: Norman Finkelstein vs. Israel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLB8DfhnJD0
What's the matter Robert, you seem to be upset that the Armenian Genocide Resolution House foreign Affairs Committe passed 23-22 today and it'll go The House of Representatives for a vote? Whenever I see your writings I say to myself; here we go again, the denialist turk will whine and cry wolf. Indeed your country stole Armenian lands after pretty much making Armenians almost extinct. Why don't you do an educated humanly move and start reading books pertaining to the Armenian Genocide but outside the denyalist turkey; because you will never learn the truth while you're in there.
Mer bolori axchqnera luys hye joghovurt..
Today was indeed a victory.. Victory not only to show the world that justice and truth is stronger than Turkey, but also it celebrates the Armenians unity and togetherness.. When we start something as one body, we can accomplish everything.. and this is a great example..
Dave,
I agree with you 100%.....
This is just the beginning..
Than you LORD for making this happen.. Our prayers were answered...
Long live Armenia
Janine thank you so much for phoning those who made this happen.. That is very important.. we should all do that...
Obama should be ashamed of himself. And now, we can expect to see all the official Turkish tantrums...like clockwork....as they take their marbles home and refuse to play. Believe it or not, Turkey will survive, but perhaps now, a little bit more grown up.
Robert...you seem to forget, rather conveniently, that the Ottoman EMPIRE had an immense army...and whatever the Armenians had, it wasn't much, and really amounted to a mosquito biting an elephant.....so, get real. As if a political party for a minority group could have done anything to the Ottoman Empire....why not look inside and see what another group of non-Turks did...you should save your anger for the CUP, because they were the ones who took over the empire and destroyed it from inside, including millions of citizens whose ancestors had lived there for thousands of years....much, much longer than any Turk...that's for sure.
Although the Genocide Bill passed the Foreign Affairs Committee, Armenian Organizations must work desperately to work with Congressman & others to get passed thru the House. It must get out petitions to the President & State Dept. immediately signed by millions of people here in the states. Also demonstrations should take place all over the country along with the Capital in Washington, DC. Lets not waste time & act fast. Don't let the Turks & the Israel lobby win again. The Israel lobby is the one working under the payroll of the Turks whom have convinced this country not to recognize our long overdue Armenian Genocide. Wake up Armenians Organizations & unite all Armenians before it is too late.
The Armenian genocide is on going 1915-2010. The last act of genocide is denial. Genocide ceases only when denial ceases.
The atrocities reached its maximum between 1915 and 1923. The Turkish state is not only the inheritor of the Ottoman Empire; but also continues the genocide.
Attaturk’s Turkey declared war on the first Armenian Republic (recognized by US, UK, France, Japan, and others) and continued the destruction of the Armenians within the territories of the Republic; Turkey annexed nearly half of that Republic’s territories (Araart, Kars, Ani, Ardahan, etc..).
Also, genocide is not just the act of deliberate killings, it is the eradication of any existence of culture, architecture, references to places, cities, names, raising children of a group as a different group (Turkification of orphans) , etc.. as if the victims never existed.
The State of Turkey is guilty of Genocide.
Keep in mind Turkey closed its borders with Armenia, an illegal act under international law; and under international law it is an act of war. This is why Armenia signed an agreement with the Russian Federation to protect its frontiers from Turkey.
Creating conditions that leads people to leave their cultural environment is a form of genocide. As a result of Turkey’s hostile border closure, over 1 million Armenians left the country seeking economic survival elsewhere.
Hello, I hope everyone to read this comment. First one thing why is Armenia in need of proofing itself nor defend itself because FIRST AND ONLY REASON IS THE POPULATION not enough to fight for its rights that is why Republic of Armenia needs America's support. Turkey always wanted to ERASE our history and it happened when people perished on our lands. I can't believe it took 95 years to proof ourselves that genocide did happen, don't you? All Christians suffered includes all Mediterranean countries like Bulgaria, Spain, Russia, Georgia, Greece, Eastern Armenia (Cilicia), Cypros and Western Armenia. What else is not enough to pass the GENOCIDE? Don't forget that GENOCIDE will proof loss of Armenians but also all the other countries who suffered during this time. We need justice for all Christians. Genocide is not WAR because if it was we would live in Greater Armenia now and not TURKEY. LOOK AT YOUR OLD MAPS, NO TURKEY but only ARMENIA AND GREECE.
Again NO ONE OWNS THEIR LAND but it's for people to live on so that is why Ancient Armenians never discriminated or dominated other nationalities nor killed them so that is why Turks killed us?BEGINNING ARMENIA CONQUERED ON TURKS AND WERE HIS CITIZENS (BEFORE OTTOMAN EMPIRE) DON"T FORGET THAT. TURKS HAVE NO HISTORY AND WERE CALLED SULJUK TURKS WHO CAME FORM ARABIAN COUNTRIES IN THE SOUTH.
Robert, Moslem turks were annihilated not by the hands of Tashnagtsutyun but thanks for your weakling Turkey who let outside forces to overthrow your Abdul Hamid II and create WW I, Bolshevism and the plight of destroying Turkey by destroying the Armenian nation that was then Turkey's bread and butter. If you really want to learn; you must enquire literature pertaining to the Armenian Genocide outside of Turkey for you to be intelligent about the matter. Tashnagtsutyun were a tiny segment within the whole of the Turkish Empire. The only reason why Tashnagtsutyun fought, it is after Abdul Hamid II's annihilation of the Armenians from 1895-96 who killed 300,000 civilian souls (men, women and children). Tashnagtsutyun was formed just a little before that, because the Armenians were constantly being targetted and killed a little bit at a time and persecuted continuously; Tashnagtuyun's existence was the outcome of the turkish peoples' and the turkish government's persecutions towards Armenian people, rapes and the kidnapping of Armenian children. The Turks made yenicheris (which was an army made up in whole of Armenian little boys). Tashnagtsutyun didn't and couldn't even touched the surface, comparetavily to the Turkish Empire's malices towards the Armenian people. Robert, just go and educate yourself; but not in Turkey. They won't tell you the truth but only lies.
Truth remains truth and myths stay just that. No amount of resolution by a bunch of politicians will ever change that. I am disappointed by the emotional reaction Turkish government shows and the capital they spend on this non-issue every year. It just feeds the frenzy. Congresses do not make history, facts make history.
Being honorable means looking at a mirror once in a while.
Its such a pitty that some people can easily ignore or try to forget what goes on in real world...
if people like Robert had read one or two books about the history, they will realise that this is a reality and not a dream!
Avetis soos mena aper! We can't show we are this educated! We have to play the role of uneducated village people who need that helping hand from the mighty hand. Then we can play the game, till then Karabagh all the way! Genocide yes you did it! lol!
Ottomans did not have an immense army, they were in wars for decades as the colonial powers and Russia closed in on the Sick Man of Europe (Europe?) for the kill. At the time the massive Armenian revolts broke out in 1915, largest ever armada in history was attacking Gelibolu where eventaully there were 250K Turkish casualties in a span of less than a year. Ottomans were fighting for their existence in three major fronts, young boys and old men were called under arms, even women had picked up guns. It was around this time that Armenians actually handed over the keys of Van to a Russian general, which was followed by the fall of ancient cities of Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum etc. with direct support and assult of Armenian regiments. Of course all included mass killing of Muslim populations in these places. My grandfather's family perished in Bitlis in 1916, and I assure you they were not marched off or mistreated but cut to pieces on the spot by Armenian "revolutionaries". He was "safe" at Gallipoli, fighting! Ottomans had to divert an army (led by Ataturk) from the Mesopotamia front to counter the Armenian-Russian onslaught, which resulted in the fall of Bagdad and Mosul and changed the map of Middle East forever. Then I suggest you google Legion D'Armenique. What mosquito bites, what genocide?
I do not want any apolgies and have none to give. But some day Armenians will need to apologize to the world for this massive con job.
I do appreciate the threaputic value of these resolutions to so many Armenians though. In fact, I am all for the US congress passing the resolution in the end, and have asked my congressman accordingly. It would bring so much happiness aand joy to so many of your folk it seems, it is the humane thing to do. After all, what can be more important for a historical "fact" than the seal of approval of a bunch of politicians! It will also end this annual charade and the silly emotional responses of the Turkish governments and have people focus on matters at hand that really matter, like protocols.
Please Dr. Jeshmardian don't use religious word,
Arabs suffered from Turks more than Armenians,
They destroyed their morals for fourhanded years.
Arab did not kill a one Armenian,
Arabs did not force Armenians to change their religion,
Arabs did not force them to speak Arabic at home,
They know about genocide more than Europeans,
Turks are Turks, genetically born Turks, they will stay Turks.
English who possess christian kingdom and a Queen who is christian,
till now did not recognize our genocide!
The Arab Poet Assad Rustom started his poem by saying,
“The Sons of Turks, You are Never Muslims”
Before zionists, who ruled Lebanon ( it was the French colonials and imperialists) Who else was there in the Middle East that were colonials and imperialists (it was Russia, Turkey, England). Who were treated as favorites by the French (the Jews and Christians). Who resented this (the muslim arabs). What countries rose up as nationalists and in what year? Did the arab and turkish nationalists replace the Jews and Christians and force them out?
Avestis and co.. You said you are bolsheviks? Are you also rewriting history with our Turkish posters here. Yes, let's leave it to the historians. I have a collection of books I have read and am reading. All you do is blame the Jews for all your problems. Guess you learned that in Russia.
Robert College in Turkey was the center of the bourgeoisie. All the books I am reading re: Robert College tell how the missionaries grew to hate Russia imperialists who they blamed for all the massacres perpetrated against Christians in Bulgaria, etc. I guess that was part of the start of our the hate affair btw Russia and USA.
And I read: the Armenians went to the Turks, asked to join the Turkish army and swore their allegiance to Turkey. They were refused by the Turks, they went home ready to defend their homes. Russia took advantage of this by taking over this city (Van?) and fighting began. Hence Murat, your story. The real question, after this happened was there any reason to then round up, plan to exterminate ALL Armenians, including women and children, people who were defenseless, who were living peacefully at the time in Turkey. The resulting deportations ended in the extermination of a people called genocide. The answer, of course, is NO. There is no justification or forgiveness to what the Turks did, which was to exterminate most of the Armenians.
Yes, Turkey must apologize. Yes, it was genocide.
my armenian hating friends you will never pass this bill in US, NEVER, it is beter use of your money to help your fellow armenians in armenia who are suffering under russian control, every business is owned by them, you have tow rich countries in both sides you are enemy with whom can help you better your economy
but you are so bilnded by armenians diaspora who basically forms and gets funded by you hating the Turks when are you going to get over this hate and call it as it is
you betrayed your host nation and got killed when you were cought doing the killing
that is all
move on
Let's face it....Iran is one of Armenia's very best and most loyal friends. I have no problem at all with that. However, the real point is that the Turks are and have been totally misreading the situation vis a vis becoming part of the EU, etc. apparently from their point of view it is all about pride ... what they don't seem to get is that admitting to the genocide would make them look all modern and sophisticated and western ... e.g. the Germans on the Jews, the Americans on the Japanese and Indians (don't think we've gotten to the blacks yet), the British on the kids sent to Australia, the Australians on the Aborigines, etc.etc. etc. In a funny way, until the Turks truly "get it", and issue their own 'mea culpa', they really aren't very western at all, are they?
To me, the more Turkey acts like a little child the more of a proof it is that they are hiding something. If you are a parent think about the times when your child has been lying to you, what happens when you call them out on their lie? They start to act exactly the same was as Turkey is acting; throwing tantrums and making empty threats.
Turkey will never be able to wipe off the Armenian Genocide History with political power, bribe or by any other means. Even the Turkish people know in their hearts that this was a Genocide commited by their great grandfathers and slowly coming to terms with it. The Armenian Genocide will always remain the First Genocide in the 21st century commited by the Ottoman Empire.
As of now more than 20 countries recognize the Armenian Genocide which include France, Canada,Russia and America has to recogize as this is the country that preaches Humanity and Human rights. People complain about America's wrongs with its own Native Indian people and Slaves, well, America has admitted to these wrongs and Turkey absolutely denies it.
What goes around comes around, surely. The death of the men, women and CHILDREN are crying out for justice. Well Justice will never be served but its about time we recognize the Armenian Genocide.
Mark? Yeah right, more like Mehmet the Turk.
We are not "armenian hating", we are turkish hating.
Host nation? The Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks and Kurds are the natives of Anatolia, while the Turks were/are the invaders and all the indigenous nations have suffered from your Central Asia barbarity. Secondly, despite all its troubles, Armenia has been developing without any interference by Turkey and will continue to do so. We would much rather be an enemy of Turkey than be forced to magnanimity to scoundrels like you an your barbaric kind. I would much rather be aligned to Russia than a mid-level muslim nation that full of lying scum such as yourself. You go your way, we will go ours.
Who cares? Money buys everything. As much as I am happy to see a positive move in US administration, I cannot stop thinking this is something that will never happen. Money and politics, blackmailing and intrigues - true face of reality.
Cheers.
Pretty good article untile I got to part where Astarjian compared the turkish government with the Armenian. Then I realized what a joke this article was, because in that one line he lost his credibility.
As vehemently as I will push for the recognition of the genocide, it is also as vehemently as I say here that I do not hate the Turks. I do not work out of hatred. I work out of love for truth, respect for justice, and my Christian faith that says that I am supposed to love the truth.
I honor all people who have suffered terrible injustice. So if my own grandparents and all the grandparents of the people of my community in which I grew up suffered something so horrible, so inhumane, so awful -- because they are Christian -- am I supposed to turn a blind eye to that? No, it is the people who wish to cover this up who are filled with hatred, not us who love our grandparents and speak out of love and respect for truth. It is the people who are filled with hatred who wish to let anybody get away with genocide against people because of their faith and their culture which is historically much more ancient than that of the Turkish nation, which came along thousands of years after the identity of the Armenian people (and the Greeks in the same region, also suffering with us) was established in this place. That is not hatred on our part; it is love. It is hatred -- and help to terrorists everywhere -- to seek to cover up genocide, especially based on religious difference.
AR,
As with most individuals representing us today in the diaspora, Astarjian has no real credibility. Sadly, these people are genocide obsessed individuals without any understanding of politics...
Shame on a populace who kill and deny
They got all lands and belonging of innocent people, unarmed
Is this a humanity I ask?
They did and slayed* one by one... with out asking their god.
My lands are still with them,
They killed my grandfather 'Mihran' and all his relatives and now they deny
His Uncle was a famous lawyer in town--Garabed Dabbaghian, is this a lie?
I repeat, shame on populace who kill and deny.
I wonder...What sort of humans they are ?
___________________
* Slayed: lyric word for slain
Stephan I agree with you 100%.. We can just take this and relax.. We have to move fast fast fast.. Don't let anyone breath or move.. We have to hold the bull by its horns..
Eva.. you could not be more right...
Ed.. After I ready your particle, the better I visualized how a child would act when they did something wrong.. You are absolutely right.. Turkey is acting like a guilty child.. When will they go away into the deep dessert and forests and leave the civilized life to civilized race..
God is smiling upon us.. Lets take this opportunity and go 100% forward and WIN 110%..
G
unfortunately , this is a hate thriving and planting and describe Turks are barbarians and killers. Please look at your selves Armenians how you got the land In Armenia Today. Seeding hatred is not going to help you all. Armenians had used by French, Brits, russians and others in WWI .
There was no Armenia before wwI , so where is the boundry coming from? who made the terriroties some one in America .....!!!!!!!!!! called WIlson. does he know the Turkish Lands .. Nothing happened in 1000 years and armenians lived in Turkish lands and and Turks decided to kill Armenians >>>> Think Hard again...
look what Armenians have done in Karabagh!!!! There are 100.000 armenians live in Turkey but there is none of Turks live in Armenia. This should tell you the other side of the coin
On the Armenian TV stream, there are comments saying "We won!". Question...What exactly do you think you've won? Recall what happened in October of 2007, when the House Resolution passed 27-21, but then died without reaching the floor. The same will occur once more. It won't even reach the House floor for a vote, and as a result, will die once again! So, go ahead and hoop and holler all you want, but all you've really done is probablly awakened a sleeping giant! Just remeber this...TWO CAN PLAY THIS GAME!
Ani jan, I am very proud of you. The most important thing is that you walked the Armenian flag in your hand (garmir, gabouyd, naringi, im droshagn e hayreni, yes ge gochem dan, dan, dan getzeh im mayr hayasdan. And I am sure your great grand father Haig Adjemian is also thrilled seeing his great grand daughter with Armenian flag in her hand. This was always his dream unfortunately he died without seeing all these. Love Shakeh and Rafik
Nairian,
You're side-stepping the question, let alone the issue! FYI, I check my references via the US LIBRARY OF CONGRESS! You can go online and do the same. If you bother to check non-Armenian sources (which have already been shown to be mostly nothing more than fabrications and outright forgeries), you may actually learn something beyond the brainwashed ideas instilled into you during your hate indoctrination at the AYF (yes, we know well what goes on there, thanks to undercover investigations)! Until then, there's no point in responding to your comments, since...let's face it...they're just wrong!
We're still awaiting a complete apology from Armenia in front of the UN, to the countries, as well as the surviving family members of the victims, for their complicit and heinous actions against Moslems and non-Moslems before, during and after WWI, WWII, the 1970's-1990's, and 1992 in Azerbaijan, and withdraw from NK! Armenia needs to come clean and admit to the century-old con job perpetrated upon the Christian nations of the world. They can do all of this in front of the full UN session. Then, and only then, many nations will begin to take Armenia seriously and beging doing more trade, etc. It's that easy! Ultimately, it's going to come to this anyway, so avoid the mess of waiting and just do it ASAP (You may just gain some respect from other nations)!
Turkey is a small country that needs the USA, they will go no where without the USA, so I DONT WANT TO HEAR ANY COMMENTS BY TURKEY, AMERICA can do whatever it wants because it's a big powerful country and it can and will MAKE TURKEY do whatever it WANTS,
it's as SIMPLE AS that. The US does not have to sell any weapons or anything else do TURKEY, we dont need TURKEY, but TURKEY WILL ALWAYS NEED the USA.
SO WHATEVER AMERICA WANTS, AMERICA GETS.. turkeys' opinion does not count and they know it too.
Turkey is a small country that needs the USA, they will go no where without the USA, so I DONT WANT TO HEAR ANY COMMENTS BY TURKEY, AMERICA can do whatever it wants because it's a big powerful country and it can and will MAKE TURKEY do whatever it WANTS,
it's as SIMPLE AS that. The US does not have to sell any weapons or anything else do TURKEY, we dont need TURKEY, but TURKEY WILL ALWAYS NEED the USA.
.
USA CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS, turkey is a Muslim country, and Americans don't like Muslims anyways, so THE USA CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS AND THERE IS NOTHING, Absolutely NOTHING TURKEY CAN DO... SORRY yeall.
Armenians don't need to prove anything, they were busy being killed BY TURKS,
it was AMERICANS, EUROPEANS, AND THE PEOPLE OF THE MIDDLE EAST including their own muslims from other countries who took pictures, documented and saw with their own eyes as to what was happening and why.
And not only that, their own TUrks and KURDS till this day have stories about how they were told to kill the CHRISTIANS.
And another thing, a lot of these Muslim countries such as SYRIA, IRAN, etc... adopted Armenian kids because they were thrown in dry desert. So there is plenty of proof.
MUSLIM TURKS DID NOT LIKE CHRISTIANS, AND ARMENIANS HAPPEN TO BE CHRISTIAN so they took them out.
CNN STUDY TAKEN IN TURKEY SAID that 70% of Turks do NOT LIKE AMERICANS.
Turks killed Bulgarians, Irish, Greeks, Georgians, Romanians, Armenians, British, Serbs. etc....
SO their sins ARE MANY.
IT'S bizzare to see how Turkey who are such religious people and who pray 5 x day to the mighty GOD and yet DENY Something so sensitive and truthful.
BUT GOD/ALLAH IS Watching this, so their judgment will come in time.
THey should just come out and apologize and EVERYONE CAN GO ON WITH THEIR HAPPY LIVES.
simple as that.
Indeed he crossed the margin,comparing Armenia with Turkey as to corruption levels.It is one thing to say there is "corruption" KORRUPCIA as our brothers in RA refer to as it being there_if you are smart enough a politician dear Henry" you ought to know where all that Korrupcia emanates from...look aroud please.All over the Globe it is rampant,except perhaps a few countreis -with a lesser proportion-like Denmark,Finland sweden,where a REal Euro socialism is practiced,but again ,like just said with lesser..
As to Karekin's reference to Iran-wherefrom did that pop up?Dr. H.Astarjian makes no mention of Iran.
But now that you brought it up,let me carry on,for few know that Iran's credibility as to being a balanced country diplomatically -with all neighbours- nay world at large, is a fact.Some do not comprehend that she has all the rights to develop scientifically-like say Bakistan,sorry Pakistan-another moslem country next door. Latter does not hold the credibility of -like Iran- not letting in her territoy those who are sought after and regularly or almost so cause trouble through organizations that are clearly dubbed as terrorists and act so.
Armenia on the other hand ,has not as yet entertained a Policy of siding ONLY with one Power,luckily.As to Resolution 252 having been adopted at long last,it is to be noted that as we all know many of the U.s. states(44 have done so aready and 20 and some countres..it will be eventually admiited and recognized by even R.of Turkey-they do it their way -Gula gula-yavahs yavash.Gamac Gamac...because they know that contrary to what above was said it is not oly Recognition but....REPARATIONS ISSUE THAT LIES AHEAD.IN MY VERSION AND "SUGGSTION" BEST VIABLE ONE BEING first of all Lodging Claim at Int'l courts and instances for "Blood Money"..for that of the and ,arable lands, monasteries ,houses ,riches confiscated will follow later at a slower pace.There is the Kurdish issue to be resolved,since we are not like comapred..we do not deny,RATHER CANNOT, that kurds are there since millenia too.
So much for now,
Hama Hagagani SIRO
gaytzag palandjian
Is it me being cynical, or have the jewish media bosses decided to show to the mongolians who is your daddy by firing this as a warning shot ? Bob Simon's report was pretty half-baked on purpose, if you wanna know my opinion. The guy's a veteran Mideast correspondent, he oughta know better.
Also, check out the contortions Wolf "AIPAC" Blitz has to go through whenever reporting on Armenian Genocide for CNN.
If I were to write a "pro-genocide" commentary and submit it to Zaman, it would not pass , nor would it be printed. Yet, we are allowing commentaries by wild turks , genocidists turks, frothing at the mouth with hate spewing their venomous anti armenian, negationist tirades. It is provocative, it is insulting, and they should not be allowed. Let those wild turks write their toxic comments and submit it to Zaman, their natural habitat.
Great idea Janine! That is right. Armenia can save the US! Let Turkey walk away and see what happens to the US in the middle east afterwards.
The first genocide of the last century was committed by the ottoman Turks , there is a lot of evidence as to that, the guilty must accept their responsibility. The whole world knows , there is no need for study, even the American ambasador at the time confirmed and reported to Washington about the Armenian genocide. At this time the US president is trying to please the Turks by not recognizing the genocide. This is but a deplorable act and it is not a smart & educated person's behavior. ...
WHEN YOU HARBER OR PROTECT A THIEF, A MURDERER, A GENOCIDE PERPETRATOR, AND YOU DON'T CONDEMN, RECOGNIZE AND ACNOWLEDGE, YOU ARE AS GUILTY AS THE PERPERATOR.....!
I am very sorry to write this but it's the law.
So you think there is less corruption in Armenia or you think he shouldn't have mentioned that ?
hey yilmaz.....get a brain
Guess what people...Armenians are fighting more than just Turkey..they're fighting every major Jewish organization, Israel and probably Obama's right hand man, Rahm Emmanuel, as well. Make no mistake about it folks.
RE MODERATION
I am first post genocide generation ,& seen many people who lived through those terrible times
I was tholed about many Turks that harbored Armenians in to there homes & saved them , yes there where turks that knew genocide was wrong, there where Arabs, & Kurds,and Europeans, I take my hat for this person-es,
American people are God fearing & helping to those that are in desparate situation,
but we have to tell the truth, because it is written " the Truth will set you free"
every one will stand fore judgement one day, and there will not be anny moderation .
Aram,
What kind of question is that? I simply can't believe you would ask such a thing (well, actually I do believe it, because I wouldn't expect Armenians to actually use their heads when it comes to politics). For you information, there is immensely more corruption in Turkey, as well as America, than in Armenia. Some day, when you are a big boy you'll realize this - well, may be not. Nevertheless, "corruption" in Armenia is not an issue here, it should not have been brought up, and talking about it only derails the issue at hand.
I can't believe you people...
"Robert College in Turkey was the center of the bourgeoisie. All the books I am reading re: Robert College tell how the missionaries grew to hate Russia imperialists who they blamed for all the massacres perpetrated against Christians in Bulgaria, etc. I guess that was part of the start of our the hate affair btw Russia and USA."
A little tid bit and some education: Robert College was a school for mainly Christians in the capital of an Islamic Empire. Accross the hill, there was the Arnavutkoy College for Girls, which was actualy only for Armenian girls. No muslims welcome. Missionaries mission was the conversion of Armenians in short. Same with all other American missions sprinkled throughout Anatolia at the time. Imagine these barbarian Turks allowing all this Christian hanky-panky in their midst. There were more Armenian and missionary schools throughout Anatolia at some point than all Ottoman state schools combined. To top it off, these schools were the breeding grounds for the anti-Turkish nationalistic movements. Many of the Bulgarian and Armenian leaders of the rebellions against the Ottomans were graduates of these schools.
As I said, thse Turks were really mean and intolerant people it seems!
ps - What hate affair with Russian bear, which Armenians to this day carry happily on their meager shoulders!
I'm getting sick and tired of reading these anti-semitic messages and wonder if we haven't been infiltrated by many neo-Nazis and/or Muslim haters. The truth is that all four Jewish committee members voted FOR the resolution. Those four are Howard Berman, Gary Ackerman, Brad Sherman, and Elliot Engel. The co-sponsor of the resolution itself is Jewish Congressman Adam Schiff. So please take your twisted version of reality, in which your websites even print BS like the principals of the Young Turk government that administered the genocide were really Jews although they put on an act that they were Muslims (???!!!), back to the hole from which you crawled out.
The US should relocate the base in Turkey to Northern Iraq. The Kurds want actually want this and would be a better ally.
True Valeriy, but...behind the scenes ever single major Jewish organization in the US and the state of Israel have fought on behalf of Turkey and against anything that recognizes the Armenian genocide. Have you heard of AIPAC, the ADL, Abe Foxman? It's not anti-Semitic to cite these facts, sorry. It's their behaviors that are, however, anti-Armenian. If they don't want to be perceived as Armenian haters and deniers who work on behalf of Turkey and promoting its lies, then they should change tactics. Support historical truth. Pretty easy, if you ask me. When that happens, I'll change my message to one of appreciation. How's that?
Today's news has it that Mr. Gul ,president of r.of Turkey has expressed an opinion that passage of above Res.252 is an act that defames the turkish people?
No it does not it defames previous Ottoman turkish government ad those that have followd (including his) that officially deny it.The generalization of the turkish people is erroneous. Governments and their cronies are who manipulate the people, the masses...
No doubt this issue will continue for a while,i.e., recalling ambassador ,thena few such like steps to impress further the turkish people and also some "lobbied "allies,but it will subside eventually -like it did in France-coming to terms by and by that facts are facts .Rea registered history cannot be erased by any means.
Hama haigagani sIRO,
Gaytzag palandjian
If the U.S. gov't. cut he purse strings to Turkey, and published the names of the U.S. congressional members on the Turkish payroll{money from lobbyist}. Then we the American citizens might get a just and honest vote. It was said many years ago and is more obvious each and every day that we have the best government that MONEY CAN BUY!!!!
Question; When the U.S. asked Turkey [our big ally}, for permission to send troops thru Turkey into western Iraq, and Turkey refused. HOW MANY AMERICAN LIVES DID THAT COST????
I agree Valeriy. Without the help of Jews, there would be no movement at all regarding the Armenian Genocide. Too many Armenians overlook this. The relationship between Armenians and Jews is growing and will continue to grow. While AIPAC, JINSA, and ADL/AJC still work against Armenians, the Jewish people know the truth and are starting to make changes from within those organizations. For Armenians, just visit Ynet or the Jerusalem Post to see how much support we have had these last few days.
Valeriy, you are very correct. I think anti-semitism in the Armenian community exists because of Israel's alliance with Turkey and Azerbaijan. It gets Armenia no where. Instead we must realize the majority of Jews side with Armenians and sympathize with us. Soon the alliance with Israel and Turkey will end. It was a marriage of convenience and there will soon be a divorce. The day of the neo-cons has ended.
Not only that, Turkey asked for over $40 billion dollars in bribes to allow passage. Typical Levantine behavior
Missionaries came to convert the muslims to christianity; but the muslims would not convert (they would be cut off from their families, etc.), so they turned their attention to teaching the christians in the Ottoman Empire. Muslim students were welcome. " We have had relatively few Turkish students, only one who has graduated, as it has been the policy of the Sultan to forbid Turkish students attending any but govt. schools. Notwithstanding this prohibition, we now have (1907) more than 20 Turks in the College, and its reputation among enlightened Turks in quite as high as with other nationalities." "50 years in Constantinople and Recollections of Robert College," by George Washburn.
Also, the College had a few Hebrews all through its history, which was way ahead of its time, since many American Universities did not let Jews in at the time. Robert College was more tolerant.
In another book , "A History of Robert College," by John Freely, I have pictures of Turkish students at Robert College, including a group of Turkish girls training to be teachers (7 girls)(covered in black btw); and 5 covered Turkish girls in 1918; and a picture of Hasan Halet Iskpmar, B.S. 1916, MS 1922, first Turkish graduate of the Engineering School. Then in 1924-25, there are about 150 Turkish students; and many other interesting pictures of Turkish teachers and students.
Robert, Yelmaz and co,
You express excellent ideas! But those ideas are so worthless.
Robert demands that Armenia & Armenians appologize at the U.N. for all the evils they have heaped upon the poor turkish people. You are very humble in your demand. May be we have to kneel in front of Talaat's, Mustafa kemal's and other turkish leaders' tombs. May be we have to kiss the earth and shed tears for all of you!
We and the humanity have to thank the turks for the very "great" figures they have provided, starting with Atilla, Alpaslan, Jengis Khan, Timur Leng, the Red sultan ( Hamid II) and Talat & co.
That's what you have granted the world throughout long centuries. They have all performed excellent job!!!
Each and every one of those has created blood rivers. You may refer to the French author Victor Hugo, just to mention only one authority!
The more you cry and shout, the more you'll sink in the sea of sin yoy have created! it's much more better for you, for us & the world in large, to accept the truth. Just ask yourselves: Why there are no Armenians and other christians(almost) left in Anatolia, Van, Kars, Kharpert, Cilicia and many other locations? What happened to these humble and tax paying communities.
Turk authorites anounce that yes thousands of Armenians died during WWI. No thye didn't die. THEY WERE MASSACRED!
THEY WERE STARVED TO DEATH!
THEY WERE RAPED!
MANY WOMEN PREFERED TO COMMIT SUICIDE BY JUMPING INTO RIVERS!
MANY BOYS AND GIRLS WERE EITHER ABDUCTED OR HANDED BY THEIR MOTHERS, TO KURD & BEDIUUN FAMILIES, JUST TO SAVE THOSE LITTLE ONES. The generations of those boys are still living in Syria as Kurds & Bedouines. They are moslems, but keep the memories of their parents & great parents. There is a whole tribe of MOSLEM ARMENIANS . THEY NUMBER MORE THAN 25,000!!! I visited & saw them!
Yes Armenians lived, side by side, with the turks, buty onl as vanquisheds and serfs. Finally, they were either deported or massacrecd. They were expelled from their fatherland of milenias! Were all women, children and ordinary men terrorists? You may refer to European, American and Arab authors!
Come on boys, just tell the turkish govt. to spare the millions it is paying to greedy lobbyists! the truth, sonner or later, will shine. Unfortunaty for you and for us, your forefathers commited genocide. We paid dearly. You paid dearly becuase you lost a producing community.You'll pay dearly, morally, politically & economically, if you'll insist on your denial. This music of denial
is outdated, stop playing it! don't waste your time and nerves!
Inspite of every type of pressure you(the turkish state) could not prevent the acceptance
of 252 by the US foreign commity. Are those 23 representatives, who voted YES, so ignorant? Don't they know what went wrong in the Ottoman empire?
After all, those leaders of yours, the likes of Talaat, Enver, Baha el din Shaker, who planned & executed our Genocide, are the same ones who DESTROYED THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE!
This is getting funny.
The book has a picture of Armenian students at Robert College in 1914 and a picture of a group of Armenian girls in national costume at Robert College in 1914. I believe this is the year before the genocide; the president said they took my friends and colleagues (maybe some or all of these students?) and killed them and the president said they were not rebelling against the Ottoman Empire and that Turks' denying it would not do any good because everyone knew what happened and the truth. Yet, here it is so many years later and Turkey is still denying it.
Everyone needs to remember that the Turkey-Israel-Azerbaijan bond is and will continue to be very strong. The Ceyhan pipeline brings oil from Baku to the Turkish coast and then to Israel - a country with no oil and lots of hostile neighbors. The latest round of protocols is designed to create a problem free passageway for oil from central Asia, that will go under the Caspian, cross Azerbaijan and then get into Turkey. The bottom line is that oil is alot thicker and more important than the Armenian genocide for Israel...and I doubt that will change anytime soon, despite all the recent drama.
Thank you Hillary for going counter to your word and keeping the moralistically bankrupt state department in it's usual complicit stance in obstructing truth over politics. Oil and military contracts with a phony ally are way more important then mass murder. You are a true leader.
Hey avetis , why do you think there is a Diaspora? BECAUSE OF THE GENOCIDE! Also please stop insulting people. It's childish and counter productive.
Hey Murat, if you want facts, The United States National Archives and Record Administration holds extensive and thorough documentation on the Armenian Genocide, especially in its holdings under Record Group 59 of the United States Department of State, files 867.00 and 867.40, which are open and widely available to the public and interested institutions. Sorry but the Armenian genocide is not in doubt any more then the Holocaust . It is clear cut genocide so says the IAGS and ICTJ. The only ones wanting to "leave it to historians" and "have a historical debate" are you Turks and your paid cronies precisely to prolong the inevitable. The real debate is how long does the US want to lie for Turkey?
We cant blame the Jews for these things , even though jews have a lot of power in w.d.c. i saw that documentary by Jimmy Carter, it was very interesting.
But Jews realized quickly that Muslim Turks were not on their side when the Turkish president or prime minister threw a fit and insulted the JEWS publicly for killing Palestinians.
But as far as Rahm Emmanuel HE will be fired sooner then all of you think, trust me. There is a story about him that he was at a restaurant and someone called him on his cell phone and told him bad news about something, and then people at the restaurant saw him get the table knife and stab the wooden table many, many times, out of rage and he was cussing out, which is unacceptable, but it's a true story.
Mix children come out so cute and what a wonderful family!!!
Muslims are always going to hate the JEWS, that's a matter of fact, TURKEY or any other Muslim country is not Israels friend and Israel knows this too.
These are just couple of people getting TURKISH FUNDING BEHIND SECRET DOORS, don't believe for one second that a MUSLIM TURK loves jews, in fact Turkish people say so themselves that they HATE jEWS.
Halide Edib was the most famous graduate of American School for girls. She was influential in the fight for Turkish nationalism, CUP, and rights for women.
Famous graduates include Orhan Pamuk, Bulent Ecevit, and our protocol man Ahmet Davutoglu.
John, are you serious?? You think she's a good leader.
John:
I think you missed the point Avetis was trying to make.
John,
Are you still allowed to leave ludicrous and baseless comments? A "phony ally"? Really? You can't be refering to Turkey now, can you? What exactly has Armenia EVER done for ANYONE? You want to really know what the world truly thinks of Armenians? You'll have to go all the way back to the 1890's to begin to see the ever-growing pattern of feelings and responses towards you. Let's try Feb. of 1895. The setting is the Parliament floor in London, England. On the floor is a nobleman speaker and PM by the name of Sir Ellis Bartlett. He addresses the Parliament in regards to the now [then] determined falsified charges of atrocities by Armenians against the Turks in Anatolia and speaks these famous words..."Armenians are of all the Oriental people, the most adroit, the most subtle, and THE MOST PRONE TO LYING!".
Hey Johen, ever hear of a war in the early 1950's called the Korean War? Ever hear of the US 3rd Army and 5th Marines who fought in the frozen mountains in North Korea? Ever hear of the Turkish Brigade? Suffice it to say that any offspring from soldiers of the 3rd Army, and many from the 5th Marines, wouldn't have been born had it not been for the well documented bravery of the Turkish Brigade!! Now tell us again about this "phony ally"? Yeah, I thought so!!
Karekin,
While SOME Jewish organizations may publicly state their opposition to the resolution (and let's not forget that 22 non-Jewish Congressmen just stated their opposition to the resolution by their negative committee votes), that does not mean that they are "denying" the Armenian genocide.
Indeed, to the extent that Jews also suffered unspeakable horrors during their Holocaust, it seems certain that they would not be inclined to deny genocide.
As an example, let us take a look at JINSA's recent call for the defeat of the resolution. They acknowledge, as a historical fact, that the genocide occurred but state their opinion that it's not the job of the US government to issue resolutions about WHAT HAPPENED a long time ago in a foreign country.
And JINSA furthermore states that it doesn't appreciate Turkey threatening it with future harm unless it and other Jewish organizations work to defeat the resolution.
I can't imagine that people in government offices in Ankara are rejoicing about JINSA's press release. It is a SCATHING indictment of Turkey's wrongdoing, both in the past and in the present.
Hey Avetis, plese behave as your name suggests. I care 5 times more about corruption in Armenia then the subject of America recognizing the Genocide. Teach us about your understanding of politics and how this article changes that politics. Don't forget to use your head. Every Armenian from Armenia will laugh on your comments about corruption. Here is a link for you, go educate yourself http://tinyurl.com/ycdxnzx Or you are from Armenia and took that big responsibility to hide that classified secret of yours? Since you have a complete understanding of politics? If it's the case, then, when you'll become a big boy you'll understand that as wider it's discussed as faster it will be cured. Again it’s not a subject here; otherwise I’d give you all the examples of all the aspects of life where corruption exists.
And one advise for a future, as a fellow Armenian: Try not to disrespect people you don't know.
I agree with you Melinda. The Turks hate the Jews probably as much as the Armenians and for the same reasons for their: Education, western orientation, free-thinking, financial acumen, religious difference etc. In the end the Turks are part of the "umma"
John is being sarcastic Eva.
The bottom line is that today's Turkish leaders need to stop lying and help their country grow up, but more importantly, act like a reasonable adult, not an abusive, murderous parent who blames his victimized children for their battered, scarred bodies. Simple solution to all of this...Turkey can and should confess and apologize to its former citizens, just like the Australians have done w/ the Aboriginies, the British did with the children they sent to Australia, the Dutch to the Black South Africans and the US to the native Americans. Why? because Turkey was an irresponsible, abusive and murderous parent to millions of its own citizens, who (like today's Palestinians) tried their best to stay alive and in their own homes and villages. If any human being commits these crimes on another, they are thrown in jail. Turkey needs to start acting human, and stop acting like a criminal who thinks no one saw them commit murder in plain sight. Yo Robert - everyone on the planet saw it happen, and then they wrote about it and talked about it - much more so than Armenians themselves! Even Ataturk condemned what the CUP did to the Armenians, and you wouldn't want to offend Kemal-amou, would you?
Robert you are nuts (2 legged one) & no other word can describe you.You want to play the anti-semetic card now?
Hmm - I got an email that was a post from a "Robert" offering some other "history" about the Armenians and the atrocious and murderous acts and even (ye gods!) collusion with the Nazis during WWII. But it looks like the editors expunged it. Now that's too bad. Too bad because we need to see the kind of baseless vitriol that is being manufactured by the "other" faction and believed by people that have not spent, as I have (and I'm non-Armenian remember) for over 30 years studying this subject. Yes, we need to see what's being taught in the Turkish school system and we need to understand the many Turks brought up in their educational system consider it as an affront that they would tolerate a system that is not truthful (like they have a choice). So it may have to do more with the fact that they would have to admit that they, in this "enlightened" day and age, an age that they desperately wish to be part of, they are living in a police state and not the true democracy that was envisioned by Ataturk. Id you'd heard the lectures of Hilmar Kaiser you would know the real story which is that the same people behind the "Young Turks" that derailed Turkey's bid for democracy and instead warped it to their own perverse intentions - are still very much in power. In fact even some of the families involved have passed this "philosophy" on and are running the government there. So no surprise that folks like this "Robert" can say (and worse - believe!) all kinds of nonsense about the Armenians and the Jews never having studied it and certainly never having been taught it in school. I have had Jewish business partners and dear friends for many years and worked closely with the design and research of the vast archive of survivor witnesses to the Holocaust and nowhere in any of those experiences did I ever hear mention of any collusion with the Nazis by Armenians and other such nonsense. There were many people who unwittingly bent to Nazi pressure in desperation for survival, including many Jews. History has ferreted them all out and the record is public. In any case if there are Armenians among them they are in what would be called in statistics, the base norm. Nothing even close to what this "Robert" is suggesting as a popular campaign. Poppycock!!
Armenia needs its own sexual revolution... to exhale
Lara, well-written but singularly retro-feminist (1968ish) in perspective. It's 2010 now - 42 years to know that libertine approaches to sexual ignorance bring yet more poisoned relationships, more disease, more divorce, and more abortion (the genocide no one wants to talk about).
Love, the unconditional love that Christ taught us, is the cornerstone of our Armenian identity, and it has everything to do with creating the proper ordering of sexuality in a committed marriage, between a man and a women, and fully open to the transmission of life.
I implore you to widen the scope of your services and educate on the entirety of our sexual gifts.
Gregg Dourgarian
St. Sahag
Eagan, MN USA
Bravo Lara for exposing the realities and stark inequalities that impede progress and advancement of our society. Thanks for the courageous and lifesaving work you and your colleagues do each and every day to advance health and secure dignity for Armenias every day.
I am an American Jew and I find the JINSA position totally unacceptable and indefensible. The posting does not even articulate a clear, let alone sound rationale for opposing formal US recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
The Armenian-Turkish relationship is complex and torturous for both peoples.... working itself out on multiple levels and in different social circles; among professional historians of both cultural backgrounds, among individuals in dialogue groups, in the news media, in the body politic of Armenia, Turkey and their respective diaspora, and perhaps most awkwardly at the formal diplomatic level.
JINSA is off-base and probably needs to focus on its own torturous relationship with Jews who disagree with its premises.
What Obama is doing is putting pressure on Turkey to open up the border so that Armenia will close its border with Iran when it comes to sanctions. Iran is now capable of selling arms to Armenia so as to even the balance with Azerbadeljan. Armenia has uranium that Iran desperately needs because it doesn't have enough to build the BOMB. These are the issues that the US is considering.
What the US wants is the border opened up with Turkey and closed up with Iran. Turkey, however, has a lot of trade with Iran with energy pipelines. Turkey does not want the border with Iran closed. That has really irked the US. The other thing that has irked the US was the refusal of Turkey to send combat troops to Afghanistan and the refusal to allow an exit rout from Irag for the US troops. The refusal during the invasion of Iraq cost a lot of American lives and the US will not forget it. The other issue that the US has with Turkey is the souring relationship with Isreal. Although Obama and Clinton at the last minute urged to hold off on the resolution, they knew it was going to pass.
Thus, if Turkey doesn't change its delusional attitude about its place in this world, you will see the resolution debated on the house floor.
On a different note, if it is not debated, you will see Dany Tarkanian win the senate seat that is occupied by Hary Ried currently. That would be a death blow to Obama's odasity of hope for health care and his other policy changes.
It is hard to imagine how the decendants of that great humanitarian, Ghengis Khan, who later converted to that peaceful religion called Islam, who then sided with that peaceful country called Germany, could have turned into genocidal maniacs that would decapitate heads in order to instil fear on the population.
Is that kind of barbarism still practiced in the world?
Finally someone is courageous enough to have common sense about Sex in the Armenian community.
I have seen so many Armenian families destroyed by such inaccurate and wrong concepts and myths about sex. Enough is enough and please do not link sex with religion, it's just a need that God provided us to have a lively life...
It's healthy, important and good for anyone!
Not suggesting that existing double standards regarding men and women in Armenian society is good, but on the other hand, you'd not like what Gregg Dourgarian referred as "more poisoned relationships, more disease, more divorce, and more abortion". Very well put indeed. Amot is not a bad word, but you should learn how and where to apply it. Sometimes it's a virtue that western society is missing.
Vartkes, spirituality and education work together in understanding the gift of sex. It's as wrong to discourage one as it is the other. Sex is not just to make things "lively". Christ came to complete the law, not to abrogate it.
"Hayouhi". Thank you Anahid, I have not heard that word before and now I am proud to carry it. What a positive and generous person you are, I wish you a great and rewarding future.
Gladys
What else is new? She did the same thing as Senator.
Obama should be ashamed of himself, not Clinton. I strongly supported him for his strong stance for Armenians, even though I knew there was also 'turks for obama' out there. Now I wish him aids, cancer, or at the very least, no re-election.
of course the problem isn't that a nato member is supporting turkey...rather, Armenians still keep hoping for odar nations to do our work for us. we are tiny, yes but if we were to unite we could do better than constant dependence on lobbying odars...with all the money we give them (including Europe) we could instead lobby Kurdish and Turkish liberal/leftist groups for our friendship, as well as others who neighbor Turkey. This is what real politik is and what Monte Melkonian was talking about in "right to struggle".
100,000 Armenians in Turkey! Wow! Where did this falsifier who calls himself "Kurt", bring this figure from?
Has Turkey perhaps decided to invite the 1,500,000 slaughtered Armenians, or their descendants, back to their ancestral homes? Or does he mean the hundreds of thousands or millions of "Turks" and "Kurds" with Armenian grandparents forcibly turkified of Islamized?
The Azeris living in Armenia and Karabakh, unlike Armenians in Azerbaijan, were not massacred, but they left themselves during the fighting. But, perhaps this crafty Turk can say where did the half million strong Armenian community of Baku vanish? Who committed the countless massacres on defenseless Armenian population in Sumgait and other cities of Azerbaijan?
OK Valeriy...please name just one Armenian organization that has publicly and loudly denied the holocaust, or voted against it's recognition anywhere? The holocaust happened a long time ago in a foreign country, and didn't involve any Armenians....it was between the Jews and the Germans, yet everyone else has gotten pulled into it. Frankly, I think Armenians are sick of hearing it, as if Jews were the only ones to have gone thru such a thing. Every Jew should be ashamed of their organizations...to which they send tons of money and support. Jews are not above everyone else, especially when it comes to genocide. Raphael Lemkin, a Jew, knew this very well. You should too.
you'd think that after 70 years of communism we would get passed this B.S. It seems Armenians are no different than their Muslim conservative neighbors
there is no need to justify the fact that this is indeed a message of feminism. ther eis nothing wrong with the term feminism or feminist. it refers to the cause of reviewing our gender roles and stereotypes. it encourages us to look at us as humans and not gendered creatures. there will always be differences between men and women and no one is saying it otherwise - but differences doesn't or shouldn't mean inferior or superior to the other.
i like your opinion piece. i would have liked you to develop the thoughts and provoke some more issues.
finally, you refer to women in the 19th and 20th century. let's look at Armenia's most recent decade - the post-Karabagh war lifestyle where most men wither died, were left disabled, abandoned their families, or simply became to proud (or lazy) to do certain jobs which they felt was not manly enough. AGAIN, the women took it upon them to feed the family and breed pride and confidence in a new generation. Some of these women also fought in this war - most of us either choose to forget or don't even know of their existence.
Karekin,
I don't know what you're talking about. As with all people, Jews affiliate themseleves with all types of political organizations, some of which may or may not support the Armenian Genocide resolution for whatever reason any one particular organization may have.
Again, 22 Congressman just voted against the Armenian Genocide resolution (if you don't know, the vote was 23 for and 22 against), and I don't see you discussing the ethnic groups to which those Congressmen belong.
And how exactly have you been "pulled into" the Holocaust? I don't know that any Jewish person or Jewish organization has ever asked anyone to do anything regarding the Holocaust. So please spell out exactly what labors you've apparently endured in connection with the Jewish Holocaust. I. personally, have never been asked in any way, shape, or form to do anything regarding the Jewish Holocaust.
One of my messages above was in direct response to your obviously virulent and vicious anti-semitism, to which I responded by pointing out that all four Jewish congressmen on the Committee, Howard Berman, Gary Ackerman, Brad Sherman, and Elliot Engel, voted FOR the resolution. I might add that they didn't just VOTE for the bill, but spoke passionately in favor of it. The co-sponsor of the resolution itself is Jewish Congressman Adam Schiff.
So keep trying to find whatever angle you can to attack Jews. Your hatred is readily apparent and gets us nowhere. If you ARE Armenian and not a Muslim infiltrator, you're an embarassment to me, particularly after the strong support given to us by Jewish Congressmen.
yeah, well written. its obvious that you are outside of Armenia, since the insiders are still far from this thinking. many applauds. but still, sexual revolution in Armenia has been taking place in night club toilets since early 2000's, in its most ugly forms.
As much as we Armenians want to think that we are better than the Turks when it comes to corruption, the fact of the matter is that even if we are better, our level of corruption is still high enough to hurt Armenia.
Corruption is widespread and is the number one deterrent to Armenia’s economic development and national security. It is also a major factor contributing to the loss of population from the country. The examples of corruption are well documented and are obvious to anyone who has lived in Armenia or visited it.
The best solution is to expose this problem to sunlight, not to sweep it under the rug by denying it.
Hello All,
I THINK John was being sarcastic like Khoren said.. well I just hope he was..
However, Clinton and Obama lied from the start.. regardless of their words of encouragement and promises, I read between the lines... US WILL NEVER side with ARmenia... hence why i did not for him... I knew the real colors will come out once he is in the office and they sure did...
they will do everything to stop the passing of the resolution.. we have to stand and work united like Anto said and I know deep down in my heart, we will win..
Lets not lose our focus...
G
Lara,
Armenia is not the USA. There are actually *traditions* in Armenia, and among Armenians in the Middle East. Without societal norms, then you get a society like California or Germany: dangerously low birth rates, extremely high divorce rates, etc. Traditions have been passed down to us from millenia. They are a guide to sustainable living. What you read and watch in Western media is non-sustainable and is turning everyone into the same garbage. I prefer to live by the millenia-tested rules of Armenian family and society, than to go on some new fad (e.g. "sexual revolution) that has (pastoren) destroyed the family unit in the west. From my experience, women who think and act in the way that you describe in this article will sleep around until they're around 30 and then panic when they realize they're biological clock is ticking and then get married to some random guy, have a child (or not), and then divorce after a few months. So, yeah, it's not just Armenians who think this way (about the sanctity of the woman). It's really all up to her...
I wholeheartedly agree with Gregg Dourgarian. We have survived for centuries because of our Christian values. The Islam will easily swallow us up if we follow secular, non-Christian values & lifestyles.
Like Gregg says...sex was given to all, by God, but only in the context of a committed, life long 1 man for 1 woman marriage. Teaching other than what is a Biblical, God ordained, lifestyles is very dangerous and unhealthy for women & men. The double standards of 'men can/women cannot' is really destructive. What applies to women also applies to men...period!
If Lara wants to teach women about sexuality...I am all for it. But the teaching has to in-line with what the Bible teaches (what our ancestors taught us for centuries) Why do you think Islam is gaining ground and so rapidly? because of the West's accepting/legislating stupid things like same-sex marriage (this is really absurd) Just ask yoursleves what God thinks of this? It's like telling HIM "you don't don't what is best for us...but we do!" This is really amot eh!
I know that Greeg & I will not be popular with our thoughts and view. But we only have 1 audience, and that is Jesus Christ, the only Son of the Ancient of Days! Never ever forget who is in charge of this universe! We will all answer to HIM someday!
Ancient societies are no longer around because they let moral values disintigrate. With all the damage done to Tribes of Nairi, we are still around thousands of years and millions of martyrs later.
Lara, please reconsider your program for teaching sexuality to reflect God's view!
Thank you Henry for writing this. I hope many will read it and 'take up their cross' and live up to their responsibilities!
Beautiful letter ... congratulations!
www.ashortguidetoahappymarriage.com
Clinton, Obama and Erdogan - undemocratic THUGS at the helm. The State Department should be abolished - it is as useless to mainstreet America as Wall street, with the difference that as a government organization it should first be serve the People. Obama owes his Armenian Amerian electorate an explanation as to why he is betraying them. Erdogan tirelessly claims Turkey never comitted genocide but, on photo, he always looks like he just killed 2 ooo ooo Armenians.
Moscow - At the press conference with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayip Erdogan, the Russian President (Armenian descent) Dmitry Medvedev (Bagratyan) mentions the Armenian Genocide an undisputed fact. Dmitry Medvedev said: "My ancestors are from West Armenian city Adana ((now located in Turkey) with a predominantly Irish Arms wounds, one told me they had the barbarity of the Turkish Armenian soldiers rape women, murder Armenian children and elderly in the church and throw together with church burning. It is recognized that started against the Turks Arms Irish did. I can not help but to designate genocide. If good relations with Russia, Turkey and Armenia wants Turkey must recognize the Armenian Genocide. Facts must be correctly named "finished Russian President (of Armenian descent).
To Karekin,
I see that you revert to the typical dashnak Armenian tactic of defaming others (e.g. Ataturk) when you have no place else to go. That's to be expected from a defeated, corrupt, immoral people who can only be envious and jealous, with a national low self-esteme. Ataturk was a great man, someone of which the world see's maybe every 500-1,000 years! Tell us, what kind of leader does the Armenian nation have which they, and the rest of the world, can be proud of and justly boast about? Enlighten us about Armenian history in that the world can justly be proud of and, once again, be able to boast about? Other than a 45-year period with an Armenian king, you were all subjects of many Empires...Roman, Byzantine, Persian, Ottoman, Soviets. You've only been a true independent nation for a few years post-WWI and from the fall of communism to the present. So, other than playing the same old worn out record of "We're innocent victims" and feeling sorry for yourselves, what exactly do you have to be proud about? What do/can Armenia offer to the world? They're very poor. They're one of the most corrupt nations on the planet. They're one of the most religiously oppressed nations. They have a purity rate approaching 98% (due to ethnic cleansing). All of this leads to a continuing mass exodus of their population (about 6,000/mo), many of whom come to Turkey and make it their new home. Turkey has problems, to be sure. But Armenia is wearing out its welcome by their incessent whinning to the world of "We demand this", or "We're entitled to that"...NO YOU"RE NOT!!! Life's tough. Get over it and move on already!
To George,
Oh, you want to play quotations huh? Okay, let's play! You cite Victor Hugo. I'll see your Hugo and raise you an Alexander Duma ("Armenians always were under the rule of different states of the various religions. therefore, they have turned into cunning and cheating people, who can hide their thoughts, intentions and senses."). Let's try A.S. Puskin ("Armenians, you are wild, murderous, villains, cowards and betrayers. You are the "Owl" that devestates our towns and villages. Despite it all, I don't reproach you, because you are Armenians."). What's that? You say you want a little more? Okay, I'm more than happy to accomidate. Here's an olddie but a goodie by Napoleon Bonaparte ("If the Earth were a single state, Istanbul would be its capitol."). Here's one from President Dwight D. Eisenhower ("No doubt the strongest and most reliable protector of Euopean civilization is the Turkish Army."). Here's one by Dr. Robert John [a historian of Armenian descent] from the Armenian Reporter (August 2, 1985)..."Historians of Armenian descent say that the frequently used Hitler Quote is nothing but a forgery!". Let's try the PM of Israel, Shimon Peres ("We reject attempts to create similarities between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations."). We now check out the quote by Farhan Haq [UN spokesman] on October 5, 2000 ("The United Nations has not approved or endorsed a report labeling the Armenian experience as genocide."). Though there are so many more, I'll finish today with one more quote. This one is from Avetis Aharonian, President Delegation of Armenia in the Paris Peace Conference [From Sardarapat to Serves and Lausanne_Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, September 1963] ("Your three Armenian Chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ring leaders of the bands which have destroyed Muslim villages and have staged massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin and Zangibasar.").
Now do you see the baselessness of the rest of your comments?
Uh Jen,
So the magic number is now up to 2,000,000! Considering that the maximum number of Armenians in all of Anatolia during WWI was somewhere between 500,000 (Encyclopedia Brittanica-1915) and 1.2M (Armenian Patriarch-1915), how it's gotten to be more than there were people is amazing (let's not forget that 600,000 Armenians returned to Syria and Lebanon after the war)!
BTW, Obama doesn't owe you or anyone else any explanation. He simply realized, as do ALL Presidents that take office, that Turkey is a much more important asset and ally than Armenia which offers nothing to anyone! So, get used to it, get over it and move on already!!
Hey Robert, why don't you shut the heck up already you denialist turk, you come leering in an Armenian paper and bring the hellishness of your uneducated pen in here. Enough already!
Kristi,
Very nice article and enjoyed reading about our friend Gohar, I think the same Gohar.
We were just talking about your mastery of the Armenian language, at our weekly standing Saturday late-lunch, at the Caspain Bistro with Mark Keljik, Cythia Erickson, Happy Heilman, Barb and few other Armenians that showed up.
Hope all is going well and thanks for the wonerful memory of the Habitat that you conducted for us.
Kristi Jan:
It is so refreshing to read your text. Your memory lives everywhere in Armenia where you contributed so much (and continue to do so). Shnorhavor Kanac ton qez ev qo unkerneri. Kez noric enq spasoum Exegnacoroum, mer sari glxin.
Ataturk was a drunk and a blatant fascist.
Robert,
Get over it? God forbid your family was slaughtered and I'll say the same to you. how would you feel?
Stop using references and big words to make people think you know what you're writing about. Turkey... an Ally? For your information Turkey will sell the US in a heartbeat when our $$$ stop lowing. In this day of satellites and drones, the fact is we do not need an ally like Turkey.
Do you think for a moment that we stand a chance against the Russians if a war errupts. Is that why we need those bases? I was in Russia on business in Novemeber and frankly we are kidding ourselves.
Coming back to the Armenians, even if there were 1000 Armenians massacred wasn't that enough? we go defending Kurds, Muslims and others ONLY when we will benefit from the situation. We turn our heads away and pretend we don't see bigger genocides.
Where were we when millions were slauthered in Ruwanda? Now what do we care about a few million blacks killing each other!!! (Sarchasm)
I have worked and lived in many nations. I speak and write more languages than you would guess. I may even be as educated as you. Stop attacking the Armenians by bringing an example of one Turkish brigade in Korea. You are right!! the Armenians should have toppled the Soviet regime that they were under, and sent an army they never had to support the US in a war that we had no business getting into. Stop for a moment and think about what you wrote.
The truth is that we will sell anyone or any nation for our benefit. We just pretend to be the most honest nation on earth but the truth is thatwe are just like every other nation. It is sad that you believe in presidents and politics but remember that Obama and Hillary are just faces to the politics that is dictated upon them. If my 6 year old niece and 8 year old nephews were elected to office tomorrow nothing will change in the politics of our " Greatest Nation on Earth."
Oh...and, he wasn't even Turkish, either! What a role model!
well written piece lara.
one point i'd like to make. you say: "For a man to cheat on his wife is considered normal and very much tolerated by the different spheres of our society. As for a woman cheating on her husband? She is labeled a “slut,” “whore,” not worthy of being called an “Armenian woman"".
where i come from, a man cheating on his wife and a woman cheating on her husband are equally abhorrent.
With all due respect, Ataturk established the first and only real democracy in ME and Eastern Europe, and that democracy survived while the rest of civilized Europe was straining under real fascist boots from Spain to Germany to Italy, to Greece. Not to mention that this "drunk" adopted a dozen or so Armenian orphans personally and gave them a dignified life and future. The blood lust and ethnic hate has blinded you obviously and you and likes of you are in no position to make any moral judgements. It does not help the Armenian cause to say the least.
Vic, kudos on your honest analysis, though it is a tad on the pessimisitic side. True, sates are not people or even nations sometimes, though we all attribute such characteristics to them. It is about interests and cost benefit and it is kept in check because real people with feelings vote for the politicians and they are forced to play two-faced game. Things have changed a lot since the advent of globalism. National boundaries are not the only boundaries anymore, ecnomic ties bind most of us and hit our pockets directly and affect our lives in a way nationalism does not. All nations have myths that define them and sometimes these can be their downfall. History is full of examples.
It is my wish that Armenia finds other myths than a bloody catastroph to define its national identity, and WWI was a great and singular catastroph form many nations, not just Armenians we must note, and looks more forward not backward and works for a better future for all living.
On a related note, Halide Edip and husband Adnan, a medical doctor, worked in numerous humanitarian projects and saved countless lives during WWI. Interestingly, and I am sure not many know this, Halide Edip worked in what is now Syria for a while, tending to war orphans, mostly Armenians children set up in orphanges she persoanlly organized, and get this, supported by Cemal Pasa, who was the commander of the 4th Army in the area. He has also mentioned in his diaries the difficulty of having have to tend to civilian needs while fighting a war at the same time. He bitterly complains about the lack of food, famine and disease made much worse by the Allied blockade of all Ottoman ports and ships carrying food, even those of Red Cross, not being allowed to help the masses of mostly Armenian refugees piling in Syria and Lebanon at the time.
There is no justification for someone being ignorant and unintelligent as Mr. Robert.. you are not worth my words and efforts but I can't just not say anything...
Please get over the fact that Turkey will always be the genocide perpetrators and that you are brainwashed.... Get over the fact that ARmenians will never stop their fight... If you are a Turk, you might want to do soul searching and understand what truly happened. OH WAIT.. Turks don't have souls.. They have Islam and Jihad..souless, killing machines...
Get out of this site...
G
Dear Kristi,
Good article and thrilling stories! You have good heart to be able to capture and share these real-life stories. You care about true relationships and that's why we love you.
this liberal madness has already allowed for the fall of European culture, must it swallow up the remainder of the world?
Robert,
Do yourself a favor and read some books. Why don't you start with Talat Pasha's own documents that his wife turned in a few years ago. A Turkish writer made a book out of them and published it in Turkey. “The Remaining Documents of Talat Pasha,” by Mr. Bardakci. Read the book to get the "real" number of the Armenian population before 1915 in Talat Pasha's own personal secret documents. The "recorded number" in 1915 in those records was somewhere close to $1.3 million. And a census taken two years later by Talat's government puts the number at 284,000! A million disappeared in 2 years time according to Talat's own documents. If you think the Armenians are liars then be my guest and pick up that book which was put together by a Turk, and read Talat's confidential documents from that time. The US and Turkey are using each other for their individual purposes. The Armenian question is a bartering chip that they are both playing with. The US will never acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, because the State Department back then decided to give the Armenian lands that President Woodrow Wilson was rewarding to the Armenians in the Sevres Treaty to Turkey in exchange to a share in oil profits. My guess is that every American President once he takes office is being briefed about that deal. Acknowledging the Genocide will unveil those territorial issues, and things will get very complicated for the US. (read Vahan Cardashian, Advocate Extraordinaire of the Armenian Genocide). Also, the US has so few friends left that it will work with anyone to keep their leverage as a super power. The sad reality is that the US has become so desperate to stay as a superpower, that it is selling itself to the devil and making itself the laughing stock of Europe (which has already acknowledged the Armenian Genocide) and the rest of the world. When recently the “60 minute” reporter asked the Turkish Ambassador “why isn’t the US acknowledging the Armenian Genocide that has been branded as such by most historians” the Ambassador said “because Turkey is important to the US”. He did not say “because the Genocide has never been proven”. A criminal always ends up making a mistake. There is no “perfect crime”.
This is can be called " having two Irons into fire".
On one side, the Jewish associations, nowadays, support the Res. 252 and, on the other, Clinton who is close to the Zionists will block it at the last step (like on 2000, 2007).
Otherwise, why Erdogan is said to go to US to meet the jewish leaders, on the next days ?
The Goal is evident :
to obtain turkish support to threaten Iran
Look Valeriy, I don't think any Armenian has anything to apologize for regarding the holocaust, but the people who are and have been working so hard against the acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide certainly do. Don't you think it's just a bit odd that Armenians are regularly questioned and undermined on the genocide, not just by the Turkish govt and nationalists, but by a group of well paid hacks in the US? And, you don't think people should be angry or respond to that? Fighting fire w/ fire always works....anything else is pathetic and a waste of time.
Yes, Murat...a 'democracy' that has been run by a bunch of fascist generals? A 'democracy' that has denied Turks access to their own history by changing the historical alphabet, banning certain types of clothing, forcing families to change their names to something artificial, denying the existence of Kurds, taxing non-Muslim minorities into oblivion, destroying and denying historic architecture and facts, threatening a Nobel Prize winner w/ arrest for telling the truth? It's just amazing that real Turks would sign onto the lie that was Ataturk (a title/name given to him by an Armenian). Yes, he did some good things, I will not deny...he created a new Turkey, but at what price? The only reason he was able to survive is because the US funded him and his army as a bulwark against the Soviets. The 'democracy' label has really been a farce until recently. Now, the new govt is making progress in that direction, and I wish them all the best. It is and will be good for everyone in Turkey, as long as the fascists and Kemalists don't get in the way.
Hye Valeriy, what say you of the ADL leadership? Of course, in all nations we have those who seek and know of the Armenian Genocide - which believe me, we are most appreciative. But we also have the ADL elements... who too, having suffered their Genocide, yet politically, cannot align themselves with our Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - morally, this saddens me. For a Genocide is a Genocide is a Genocide - to whomever, wherever, whether perpetrated by a foe or an 'ally".
This is not an issue of anti-Semitism or anti-Armenianism. We face government leaderships who are
so politically bound - the moral aspect of Genocides - humans killing humans - is even labelled as
'inappropriate' by a Hilary - imagine, any slaughters and tortures of humans labelled 'inappropriate'!
Manooshag
P.S. Valeriy, just imagine - if the Ottoman Turks and their subsequent leaderships in denials of the Turkish Genocide had been brought to face justice - admit their guilt, pay the reparations due and owing the Armenian nation - ALL of the Genocides, including the Jewish Holocaust, shall never have
been - since despots shall have known that any such treatments of fellow humans was never to be allowed by civilized leaderships of nations - anywhere on our planet!
So, our pursuit of recognition of Genocides shall be the example - those who pursue Genocides to
gain their convoluted goals - shall need to face the world - shall need to be recognized as Genociders,
shall be punished before the world. Genocides - the inhumanity of humans againt humans. Sadly.M
Kristi jan-- a great story. I know Gohar jan and you capture a lot of what makes her so special! I loved getting to know and love Armenia with you.
Thanks for sharing this and happy Women's Day!
Kelly
It's not about a woman's sexuality but more so about her physical and mental survival, her having choices and most importantly her freedom of thought and life.
Lara, you have much courage to educate women about their bodies and what can and cannot be tolerated in a country that is struggling with survival. Congratulations to you.
Armenian women are raising these soon to be men... If all that these young boys see is their father abusing their mother and their mothers not having the knowledge or tools to stand up for herself – then how can we possibly have a nation that will ever evolve. It's time to stop this abuse. And the time is now!
Too many men, lack of women. Don't get me wrong, but... it's not about 'being allowed in US, and not allowed in Armenia', it's not even about the "traditions" as I do believe this is what I called above 'double standards of treating men and women'. It's about a choice that should be well thought of. I don't believe we want 12 year-olds having children like in UK. Children should have other games to play. Therefore, maybe before teaching about sexuality as Lara suggests, we should teach about common sense and logic. And as an Armenian woman, I would like my children be able to think before doing, that's often not the case abroad.
robert whoever you are? you are an asshole!
Maria, you speak out truth that has been on the minds of many, I am sure. I would like to add that any societal role changes for women will consequently affect the men. Therefore, we as Armenian men should also be prepared and involved in reshaping our stereotypical gender roles and assume some new responsibilities - that of the 21st century man... the man that is the equal of the 21st century woman.
One more thing: Lara apparently doesn't understand Eastern cultures like Armenia. Armenian culture is much more similar to Indian culture than it is to European or American -- the role of the woman is to serve her husband, bare children and create a good home for the family. The man, in turn, has his role: to provide materially for the family and to love his wife and family. This is the only sustainable way. With woman and man both sleeping around before marriage, you don't have the basis to start a harmonious family. Which man wants to marry a "used" woman?
RE : ROBERT THE ESHEG
The best thing to do would to ignore the uneducated comments. Do not even remark on the attempts of a buffoon trying to voice some ludicrous nonsense. If you comment on a moron's writings, you will then give them satisfaction. IGNORE>>
Armen, you get on my nerves now! If you want a maid, be a MAN enough to be able to pay one, then your wife will be there just to accompany you. Which woman want to marry a 'used' man? Or should we take it granted you cannot control yourself? The main problem in Armenia is man not being able to swallow their pride, and stop talking about double-standards. Hypocrates!
Armen - where do you live? because you talk as though you are not even from this planet, let alone from this century. If all you, gregg and gary read was that women should sleep around, well, i think you have not even understood the basis of this article. Let me simplify it for you. The issue is not that all women MUST have sex liberally and often before they get married - it is simply said that she should have the choice and not be judged for it. Also, it should be said that most men as well as women lack the basic knowledge about sexual education - this is not the same as knowing sex positions; its about your body - health and hygiene. By the way, did you know that the birthrate in Armenia is blow 1 and the divorce rate is VERY high? so perhaps its the lack of knowledge and pleasurable partnerships that is causing this too... no?
Smith... in 2003 she MOVED to Armenia (its in her bio)
Lord Aram - it is clear that where you come from is not Armenia, right?
traditions are made society, and if they don't evolve, they just become stale then obsolete.
Armen, think before you write. A good family takes a 'father' and a 'mother'. This his Holiness Aram I declared 2010 Year of Armenian Women. Take some time to educate yourself. If we, as the first Armenian Christian state don't evolve, then how can our people, our community, our churches evolve. How can we possibly compare ourselves to Middle Easterns or Indians. We are Armenian. We are the first christian nation that has spent a lifetime in persecution. And look at us now, our Armenian persecute Armenian women. Our culture is diverse. We have our current Armenia with a very very active diasporan that ALSO makes up what our community is.
Hye, Obama and his circle, et al, have morally demeaned the issue of Genocides in the United States of America - the most powerful nation the world has known!
The Foreign Affairs Committee of the U.S. Congress have voted to recognize the
Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - and as president, Obama asks that the U.S. Congress not
to be addressing the issue of Genocides. So, Politics - wins; Morality - loses.
Humans killing humans; the inhumanity to other humans shall win over the recognition of any and all Genocides -millions and millions of innocents - since the 19th, the 20th and now 21st centuries.
Today, Turks recognized as guilty of their Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - the Ottomans and all their subsequent leaderships in their denials - shall have won - or have they, for winning such a point still addresses theim as the Asian hordes who committed the murders, slaughters, rapes, kidnappings, burning churches with women and children within, bastinados - vile torture - death the only release.
The United States of America - looked to as the strongest morally nation - has subcombed to the
dishonesty and deceit of the Turks and their horrendous treatments of fellow humans.
The Turks' inhumanity to humans has set the example for all the Genocides that followed the Armenian Genocide - too, all the denials as well. The Sudanese today are attempting to lie and hide to emulate the Turks' denial efforts to avoid admission of their guilt - Genocides.
Sadly, it is the leadership of the United States of America, too, who are now aligned with the Sudanese and the Turks - while knowing the truths of the Armenian Genocide - are unable to speak the truths, in a way the leaderships are 'gagged' and bound to a Turkey lies...
Yet, this all the world now knows:
If the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation had been adjudged in the early 20th century - ALL the Genocides since, even into the 21st century in Darfur, shall have never been.
Today, now, the Congress of the United States of America shall face the issue of Genocides - morally.
The world is waiting, the world is watching... and too, all those I lost to the Genocide and whose bones are not buried - still.
Manooshag
raffi n.....HATS OFF to you; very well said
Very well and interestingly written!
TO GM,
Ignoring is not so O.K.
During the war the robert refers to in Korea, TIME magazine had an article that showed the "heroic" turkish Brigade,after killing sme Korean used to cut off(Barbarian style)the ears of the dead and dangle them on their belts ..to show that they had killed some poor souls/soldiers.Indeed warfare is warfare, but to show off that way,only fit to "turkishness'.Murat als is to understand there are poeple who wll not swallow what their oxydated axes are grinding...
Documented fies, and now be ready for it more Dansih or such doctors/nurses who filmed the massacres are to be surfaced..pertty soon, actually some ave.
As to "AllY'great Turkey,like someone p above noted hardly they can be counted on as deterrent against Russian forces.Who incidentaly, are not the Tsarist or even sovet forces-wise equipeed.They rely on ultra modern Missiles what not..
What is more neither russia nor Turkey is planning to war against e a other...they do BIZness together on big scale.Soon ,also others wll cut in...
R.of Turkey cannot stay indifferent to our CASE/CAUSE.They know full well it is a ripened case and has to come up not only by Anglo-Americans but many other nations,that condemn Genocide and random killings...
If she is wise enough,she will -in their style- by and by come to terms-No eed to put too much pressure on the..they know they have to accept facts when necessary.however, they"prefer t do it their way..by and by,lest the whole country errupt.Their military and hardliers -we should know- are a different creed and the islamists another.And yet both can be led to all of a sudden errupt with "Kers', means wrath brought about by too much ressure by those"ermenis" that untill not so long ago were classified as "raya"s,pertty much like the kurds as "mountain turks ...capiche? latter are now referred to as KURDS.If that happened then other things might be expected of their slowly coming to grips...
Easy Mr. easy...Gula Gula, piano piao.GAMAC GAMAC..ought to be our approach to this issue.
We are doing allright so far.Next,we sall have to try to educate their public,which is very important ,if not in r.of turkley, then overseas,wehre there are immense turkish immigrats and/or settled old time turks...
G.P.
Hye, Hayoui Anahid, thank you for your efforts for sharing Armenianess wherever you have had to be - wherever with our world-wide Armenian Diaspora. We too, have tried, over the years to maintain our culture and greatly appreciate your endeavors...
Abrees.
Manooshag
I did not mean to ignore as a whole. I just meant to trouble makers. It makes them angrier.
Sibel Edmonds is a national hero. Support her website.
To all, I was being 100% sarcastic.
To mehmet (robert) the turk, did you forget you moron when Turkey closed the border to the 4th US infantry at the start of the Iraq war? This was considered a major eyeopening decision that cost Us soldier's lives. And it was all about money as Turkey wanted 36 Billion dollars but was only given around 26 billion. Turks are pretty predictable as you are ultra opportunists and your history, if you read a real book, wasn't based upon the creation of anything but rather the occupation, theft and murder of others. The Armenian genocide wasn't about protection but rather theft of the Armenian, Greek and Assyrian property and money. Unfortunately they were the last people under Turkish control. All the other occupied peoples dislodged themselves from years of Turkish miss-rule.
What has Armenian done for anyone? Armenia proper, you moron, was and still is occupied for hundreds of years by you Mongols. Armenia, or what is left of it, has only been self governing since 1991 and needless to say has come pretty far despite the genocide and despite economic blockade that's still being perpetrated by you mongols.
To Murat, the only "myth" that Turks need to stop identifying with, is that they are an innocent race being falsely accused. Rather, a criminal race founded upon the genocide of others. That is why the ignorant rule needed to be put in your country, article 301, so as to not disrupt the ignorance of the Turkish masses. How stupid can one be that the truth is an "insult to Turks". The Armenian genocide is a fact recognized by all credible historians, by 20 countries and 42 States and its only a matter of time before it is properly recognized by everyone. Get used to it!
No one did anythign for the ARMENIANS
No one did anything for the Armenians in 1915 and HENCE GOD ALLOWED THE JEWS AND 60 MILLION PEOPLE FROM ALL NATIONS TO DIE IN WWII, oh well, GOD IS GREAT I ALWAYS SAY.
To Murat: I get it now, you can blame it on the blockade for the Armenian Genocide. You can blame it on anyone else other than the Turkish government and its decrees.
And, of course, Kemal Attaturk loved orphans. That notion I do believe. He loved them as just like Micheal Jackson (especially young boys). As a matter of fact, Kemal Attaturk has a lot of things in common with Micheal Jackson.
It was because of the Azerbajani Government's influence on Mr. Sarksyan that the Armenian TV did not broadcast Genocide Vote Live and other pro-Armenian programs. Mr. Ilham Aliyev, the Azerbaijani President says and Mr. Sarksyan, the Armenian illegal President does. Such developments have been and will be too dangerous for the Republic of Armenia, Armenians all over the world, and the Armenian Spirituality.
Karekin,
Oh wow, is that the best that you can do? You've just proven how pathetic you and all Armenians are!! As I stated earlier, all you can do is defame a great man because you have NOTHING (once again, typical behavior for a defeated people). You're a perfect textbook example of a person with low self-esteme and a bankrupt moral character! You can't respond to anything in a mature and professional manner, so you revert to the same old tired Armenian tactic of defamation! Accordingly, you are not worthy of any further response and/or communication (you are simply too far beneath the vast majority of people! There's a good old saying which typifies people just like you..."The barking dog will never have any effect on the moving caravan". Good day to you.
Hello Editorial Board,
YOU'VE DONE IT YET ONCE AGAIN!!! Please stop censoring and deleting me! It took me awhile to compose my post just the way that I wnated to express it. But, due to your terror and extreme fear that some of your readers may actually learn something commonly refered to as the TRUTH, you find it necessary to censor me, and God knows how many who simply wanted to voice their opinion in a civillized and professional manner! BTW, your racism is showing just a tad!! Have a good day :-)
To support Sibel Edmonds by sending a modest donation so that she can continue to advance the cause of our unalienable First Amendment rights is to also support the future of your children, grandchildren, fellow countrymen and women, and most notably; freedom-yearning humanity worldwide. It is imperative that the truth be brought to light by those courageous enough to speak it. Please answer the call.
I am not one of those who would attend your workshops, but I was raised in a strict family and am now married to a European who regrets he had sex before marriage. Some values are global. Cunnilingus can be of surprisingly low importance in a happy family with healthy and strong values.
Lara, it is economical problem.
"Armenian woman" without husband, even with higher education
has very hard life - something like 100-200 dollars monthly, without any future. In that case only parents and brothers can take care or support her. From their point, they do not want to take additional obligations, and keep "Armenian woman", let us say, in dark. But I think, that "Armenian woman" is not such dark, as you wrote, I think, it will be better to collect anonymous statistics (do not know how it is possible in real life, but sure, that there are special ways) and then summarize results. Sure, you can find well educated in sexual sense "Armenian woman" :)
No doubt, offcaurse they are same traitors which came out
with 22nd April 2009 by aggrement with turks, Armenians
cannot forget this as well as Oct. 10th, signed most dangerouse
protocols, they could do without preconditions,and now they
dont like our won by RECONIZING THE GENOCIDE COZE HAS HURT
THEIR FRIENDS
YELKE I S H K H A N A P O K H O U T Y O U N YEV VERCH.
GETZE HO.HE.TAN
GETZE HYE ZHOGHOVOURTE HAMAYN ASHKHAHRI
Giro jan, the debate was not covered live because it would have been a waste of time... Please act like a real politician.
Don't worry Robert, they wont allow me to talk about ****'s orgasmic vagina either... :(
LOL!
No one did anything in 1915? Russian armies led and joined by Armenians were devestating whole of Eastern Anatolia during 1915 while the largest armada ever assemebled in history was assaulting Gelibolu. No one did anything? As if anyone owed anything to anyone, and as if anyone did anything for anyone... some people have no sense of perspective or reality. I mean really...
Dear Robert,
Please stop knocking down a group of people that have been knocked down many times but have risen and overcome better than any other group of individuals out there. We absolutely do not need ignorant fools like you commenting on matters you do not understand and have absolutely no business being involved in. Go back far enough into your OWN heritage and history and realize that every ethnic group has been suppressed and ridiculed. If you tried using your brain, you would look at both sides of the story and be understanding of our cause even if you don't agree with it. Please do not ever speak about my heritage, my history, my family, my country, or anything to do with the Armenians ever again. Please do not ever say that the pain my family has felt was a lie. I understand you have a side to take...but do so intelligently instead of being vulgar and cruel to a group of people that have never done any harm to you.
May you swallow and choke on your tongue for speaking in such a way.
As usual, the most ignorant is the one shouting the loudest from tree tops...
Henry,
I really appreciated this. It was a pleasure to read. Thank you for your insights on my post as well. We need more commentary like this!
You, Robert, obviously, have been trained to worship Ataturk, a drunken, fake Turk, fake Muslim....as if he's a god of some sort. What a sales job he did on you and the rest of Turkey! Thankfully, most Armenians live outside of Turkey now and have no obligation to worship the fake god, Ataturk. Well, get real and see thru the facade. We don't worship dictators, especially nutcases who demand that their photos appear all over the country. All you seem to enjoy doing is blaming the victims of Turkish atrocity for their own demise. You and the rest of the fake Turks needed and still need a scapegoat to blame for the end of your empire, but guess what? That end had nothing to do with Armenians...but had alot to do w/ criminalswho took over the empire, duped the sultan, bankrupted the Ottoman treasury, murdered 20% of the population and stole their land, businesses and homes. If you see fit to defend them, then you are equally criminal, and I feel sorry for you. The whole world has seen what Turkey has done, not only to Armenians, but to Kurds, Alevis and lots of others who have lived there long before Turks ever arrived there. Face it...Turks created nothing on their own...they even used the Arabic alphabet because they had no writing of their own, and then used the minorities to do all their work for them. Not even the sultan's children were Turkish! They were products of their concubines, who weren't Turks at all. It's all been a big farce Robert, a big lie...Turkey is built on a mountain of lies and the remains of those they used along the way, and is a poor excuse for a country.
Look what happened to all the nations in the area and in the world who did not have an Ataturk, then and even now. Look at a mirror once in a while.
To all Armenian Organizations without exceptions.
WE all would like to see the world recognize the Armenian genocide.first fix your inner politics,and unite.If not. as usual you each are blowing your own horns,and do not blame others. you all are to blame and stop waisting every ones time,and let those 1.5 million rest in peace,
Shame on the Armenian Authorities, they are so corrupt. Not only they did not broadcast the HR-252 debate live on Armenian TV but also they did not come out strong enough supporting the passage and did not utter a word against all the efforts exerted in the media by Turkey and Azerbaijan in falsifying history. Only the foreign minister's appreciation for the vote. What an empty word!
We in the diaspora have the inalienable right to ask the government of our "Hayrenik" to uphold the rights of Armenians wherever they are and to support them when it comes to National Armenian Interests. But alas, they just lay back and watch.
I see clear inaction when it comes to issues concerning Chavaghk in Georgia, and in Karapagh, instead of us just mourning the death of a soldier at the hands of Azeri sharp shooters, we should immediately retaliate by assassinating ten Azeri soldiers in return. This is the only way the sniping at our soldiers in the frontiers will ever stop.Do I need to remind everyone of the retaliations taken by Israel against similar sniping incidents on its frontiers?
How about a medal to Aliev for bullying Armrnia?
I want to congratulate the Weekly and Khatchig Mouradian for this wonderful special. This is indeed one of the few places in the entire Armenian press (in every language) where controversial issues are presented, discussed, and given room to develop. And perhaps one of our greatest issue is women's rights.
I just finished reading all the articles. Bravo Weekly!
Hey Murat,
is this the humanitarian orphanage you are talking about?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/living-proof-of-the-armenian-genocide-1918367.html
Try to read it through (it was very hard for me) and let me know afterwards how proud you are. It doesn't get any more "humanitarian" than this. Does it? Your shamelessness has no limits. Or, perhaps, this is considered humanitarian by the great Turkish standards.
Murat: I hope you are not calling me ignorant. The only persons that are ignorant are those who refuse to look at the truth of their grandparents' conduct and the fact that they were genocidal maniacs that delved into Ghengis Khan's ancestorial inclinations with regards to the unarmed citizens.
Those who refuse to look at the truth, in medical terms, are called dellusional or insane. I think to this day Turkey is the sick man of Europe. I don't even classify them as Europeans. They are Asians (Chineese). I'm sure that will even be contested by Turks as fabricated. They will probably espouse that they srang from the ground.
On another note, Murat, it is also true that Kemal Attaturk was a bisexual pedophile who had a penchant for little boys and sometimes little girls or prostitutes. He apparently died of syphollis. I'm sure that the Turks will also try to put a spin on that as well and call him a great humanitarian like they are attempting with Ghengis Khan.
Murat,
"Russian armies led and joined by Armenians were devistating whole of Eastern Anatolia during 1915 while the largest armada ever assembled in history was assaulting Gelibolu."?
Please go read a history book not written by a Turk (nor an Armenian, for that matter) and you'll see that your grasp on issue is tenuous, at best.
From Wikipedia: She was a donmeh. She seems to have been full of conflicts in herself between the east and west.
"In 1916-1917, Halide Edip acted as Ottoman inspector for schools in Damascus, Beirut, and Mount Lebanon. The students at these schools included hundreds of Armenian, Arab, Kurdish, and Turkish orphans. According to a teacher who worked briefly under her, Halide Edip "was at the head of an orphanage of 1,000 children in the mountains. These were mostly Armenian children. She said, 'Their names are changed (to Moslem names) but they are children; they don't know what religion means. Now, they must be fed and clothed and kept safe.' She didn't say what would be afterwards." According to Halide Edip, these children were given Muslim names under orders from Cemal Pasha. She records a 1916 conversation thus:
I said: "... Why do you allow Armenian children to be called by Moslem names? It looks like turning the Armenians into Moslems, and history some day will revenge it on the coming generation of Turks."
"You are an idealist," [Cemal Pasha] answered gravely, "... Do you believe that by turning a few hundred Armenian boys and girls Moslem I think I benefit my race? You have seen the Armenian orphanages in Damascus run by Armenians. There is no room in those; there is no money to open another Armenian orphanage. This is a Moslem orphanage, and only Moslem orphans are allowed. ... When I hear of wandering and starving children, I sent them to Aintoura. I have to keep them alive. I do not care how. I cannot bear to see them die in the streets."
"Afterward?" I asked.
"Do you mean after the war?" he asked. "After the war they will go back to their people. I hope none is too small to realize his race."
"I will never have anything to do with such an orphanage."
He shook his head. "You will," he said; "if you see them in misery and suffering, you will go to them and not think for a moment about their names and religion. ..."
Halide Edip's account of her inspectorship emphasizes her humanitarian efforts and her struggles to come to terms with the violence of the situation. The account of one acquaintance, however, accuses her of "calmly planning with [Cemal Pasha] forms of human tortures for Armenian mothers and young women" and taking on "the task of making Turks of their orphaned children." A U.S. High Commissioner refers to her as a "chauvinist" and someone who is "trying to rehabilitate Turkey.""
More on Halide Edip (against massacres) "In Beirut I taught one month under Halide Hanourn, a leading Moslem woman who was at the head of a government school. She spoke very freely in condemnation of her government’s Armenian policy. She had been brought up in Constantinople and from a child was conversant with government affairs.Because of her advanced ideas she had fled into Egypt a little before the revolution in 1908. She had returned after visiting England and Europe. She was a loyal Turk. At one time she said, “No one can love his country more than I, yet no one can criticize it more severely.”She said, “Nothing can remove the stain of these massacres from my nation.” When I asked her if the leaders had wanted it to go on with such brutality, she said, “Some of them did and still do. It is not finished yet.” (That was last May.) But she added, “Some did not. But they were not so practical and did not have executive power. Besides it was put up to us in this way. We are at war. Enemies are on every side. If we appear divided all will be lost. It is our nation or the Armenians.”She was at the head of an orphanage of 1,000 children in the mountains. These were mostlyArmenian children. She said, “Their names are changed (to Moslem names) but they are children; theydon’t know what religion means. Now, they must be fed and clothed and kept safe.” She didn’t say whatwould be afterwards." Statement of Harriet Fischer of Wheaton, Illinois (Gomidas Institute documents)
Dear Christine, What a nice family you have, I hope you will find four Armenian girls to your handsome intelligent sons. I am married to a foreigner and have two sons, it took me hell to find an Armenian girl, Luckily I find a dear one, LILIT .for her I wrote my poetry book “Angel Lilit Lilting via Internet” .She is half of my age but I learn from her. The problem was not with girls but by their parents they wanted pure Armenian, who said we are pure we have mixed genes through centuries, we have many kinds of DNA’s, but we have special Soul!
A Scientific Poetic Love Story
Armenian Girls: Kind, Elegant
Armenian girls: kind, elegant,
Hearts beat genuineness of every sight.
Glances express true thoughtfulness.
Glitter cheerfulness in sincerity...delight.
Armenian girls' hair drape, beauty reign.
Move with the winds, whispering in ears.
To say, “I love life, have kind soul to give,
Who deserves my love, able to keep”!
Armenian girls' hands point to blue skies.
When in act turn bronzy-safe swords:
Are small and soft can nightly engrave; can knit,
Can paint, can maintain carts in rains left on mudy paves.
Armenian girls' arms tend to build arcs,
Stir dances with silent hopeful rank.
Goes straight rounds, glides, as crescent in sky,
Cuddling despaired hearts left lonely... dice.
Armenian femininity designed to bow,
Swings serenades as sympathetic show.
Their dance knee prays for endless gods,
To keep them secluded of heartless hands.
Armenian girls'—voices convey serene sounds.
Resonate in many languages, lilting pounds.
Revise days softly from dawn till dusk.
Praising sunrays shine on needed grounds.
Armenian girls', love have holiness.
Spark from heart, spirit, soulfulness.
Eternal devotions no one can put counts.
Yield the ways, for everyone asking human rights!
Each honest lad loves them in secret, hides!
Approach seems uneasy to reach beloved.
Dreams persist for a man, flying of Mount Ararat.
Who fulfills family egos, yet endless pride!
Sylva Portoian,MD MSc MFCM FRCP
August, 22, 2006
Paris, France
Donmeh hid their Jewishness to avoid persecution. I know they are the ones who saved Jews in times of trouble like the Inquisition, so I thought they were more likely to save Armenians than massacre them, having more sympathy for their plight. The story about Halide Edip backs up my thoughts; this is contrary to the conspiracy theory blaming the Jews for the massacres.
Hei John,
if you want to convince poeople the debate must go on. If you stop the debate, mere force remains.
Geopolitical factors dimishes the US influence, something evidenced by Turkey's refusal to let the US use the bases in the Iraq war. So nothing will change except that one more country acknowledges the genocide. Turkey needs to appease its nationalists, will protest, and after this it will be business as usual, like in French-Turkish relations.
Even the close vote in the House Committee testifies to the fact that both Turks and Armenians can call this a victory, if they insist to
Let me give one input to the debate: you mention the ICTJ. Now the ICTJ does not specify any perpetrator, but the genocide thesis as it usually is stated, claims the state apparatus and heads of state were the perpetrators. But that well-documented massacres like in Diyarbakir, Kemah and Kahta were instances of genocide, provided the 1948 definition, is very difficult to deny.
Murat
nice to talk to you again. But the Armenians properly did not lead Russian armies in 1915, even if some generals were of Armenian stock. They acted under the Russian high command.And they did not devastate Eastern Anatolia in 1915. The devastation that produced 1.2 million muslim refugees came in 1916.
Of course the assessment of the importance of the Armnenian guerilla movement should be better. But why not leave the polarized language and try to make one single discource, at least in the places where this is easy? An example: It is claimed that the guerilla movement was planning an insurrection or revolution in 1915, as McCarthy says, or it is claimed that Armenians were only preparing to defend themselves, as Anaide Ter Minassian says. But isnt it better to say that the Dashnaktsiutun followed a policy of Attentism: if attacked, to defend themselves, if the Russians invaded, to assist them, as important Armenian segments had done in every Russian invasion of this area since the beginning of the 1800-eds? Why is it so difficult for both parties to admit that Dashnak policy at the time was attentism and neither pure self-defence nor pure revolutionary aim? Akcam obviously minimizes the activist role of the insurgents in the relevant chapter in "A Shameful Act", and McCarthy overdoes the headline REVOLUTION.
Some months ago I asked you, Murat, what to think of the impunity with which those who massacred Armenians were treated. Halacoglu purported to show that Gurun was right in claiming that 1.200 muslims were brought to justice for atrocities against Armenian deportees, but later it appears that only a few were tried for this, and almost all were tried for appropriating Armenian property. The only instances of perpetrators being tried and punished was in Greater Syria, under Cemal's auspices.
What to think of the intentions of a state that chose not to punish these perpetrators, as Talaat himself acknowledges?
But why go on with a debate which is a mere repetition? And what will be the cost for both parties of not debating properly, really addressing the core issue, adressing the strongest arguments of the adversary, and instead of this just stay in one's cozy trenches and hope everybody else in time will know the truth?
> Armen – where do you live? because you talk as though you are not even from this planet, let alone from this century.
That is all relative. Americans think they're god's gift to the world and that whatever is American is right. Maybe it's Lara that needs to learn from Armenian (and Indian) culture, and not the other way around.
As Greg says, Armenia's problems are economical. You want a healthier society in Armenia, then create 1 or more stable jobs in Armenia. The rest is talk.
> By the way, did you know that the birthrate in Armenia is blow 1 and the divorce rate is VERY high?
It's the economy, stupid. (That's what Clinton said.)
Men, they love their mothers,
Who soulfully spoil them.
When they get married,
Wish their wives to do the same.
When mothers soul
Doesn't exist in every name
They distress their lovers
This might exist in every community:
Ethnicity, religion, race.
I am just wondering
1. How can workshops on sexuality and health care harm morality or Armenian identity?
2. And why only Armenian women bear the responsibility to protect national traditions while men can do whatever they want?
Hey Everyone,
I am a young married Hayastani! Lived in US & Europe for short periods, bord and raised and permanently residing in Armenia! There are norms, needs (physical and psychological) and psyche, while in most of the Western world, they usually are balanced and go along together, in Armenia all 3 of them are in conflict with each other... I have dozens of single and/or newlywed male & female friends.... they all seem to come to the same point - love alone is not enough, sex is important, one has to test it, before marriage, it is essential to test sex compatibility with the partner before planning marriage, because marriage is not only norms, traditions and obligations, it is a contract of a life-time! And it is no longer about you, it is abother you, your spouce, your family and children to come! Secondly girls and guys alike always have the inner conflict, when... girls have their first sex with and only with their new husband, they have never experienced something like that, with someone else, they always want to know, what could have been before or beyond this, this feeling is inparable, it is deep within and existent in EVERY Armenian lady, who has not had sex before marriage.... and guys who usually have at least had 1 or 2 sexual experiences before marriage (I mean the reality in Hayastan), either cannot commit themselves to wives, because they feel they have not seen "The World out there yet" and have only had 1 or 2, and mostly for pay, so they do cheat, or if they don't cheat, they just like ladies described above, become slaves to inner conflicts and complexes.... So there you go, you end up with 2 sides of an intimacy, where both have baggage, both have stress, I would say trauma, and this affects physical and moral relationships alike! The divorce rate is lower in Armenia compared to Europe/US only and only because of AMOT, because of the ill-fueled norms that say divorce is bad for family, for children, for the society, and families end up having children growing in wrong social and family environment, we end up having unhappy families with women harassed, and men unsatisfied and unhealthy both morally and physically. If you think the NORMS are keeping the Armenian society healthy and doing you are WRONG, the current norms are nothing but a SELF_DESTRUCTION mode, that some of the commentors above tend to promote!
Norms in genera are good, are based on values and are made to help the society be organized in a given manner. Yet the right norms fo the Armenian society would be - have safe sex, have moral sex, have it with chosen ones, even, maybe have it with felling .... but the society where the norm for a young adult is to pay for sex when you are 16 or 18, because AMOT-e not to have had it if you are male and are now adult, and on the other hand having ladies who fell in love, gave themselves to the lover, then brake up and feel like semi-human, with their life & psyche destroyed. Or even more absurd, those who know she is no virgin, think she is available and start chasing and haressing, claming that the lady is no virgin no more and should be available to everyone now!
This is no human, this is no norms, this is no traditions, this is the mass created by pseudo-traditions, set up by conservatives, because conservativism makes societies easier to conroll by the feudals and Armenia unfortunately for the last 10-15 centuries has been and remains to be feudalistic, and people remain slaves to the system....
Thank you Lara for bringing this all up! Time to come to terms with the WRONG reality!
P.S. Those who plan to marry an Armenian wife, where Marriage contract is boiled down to a Maid's contract, I pray that they marry a non-armenian for that role! Armenian women deserve a family, not a kitchen slavery!
hillary clinton and ilk, have been stealing axa genocide insurance claims, financing terror, and other nefarious goings on, thats why clinton is opposed,, with her, and the french state dept, and axa, they have stolen alot of dead peoples money.
As an Armenian living in England and longing for my Hayrenik, I am not surprised that people in Armenia do not care about the televising of genocide, or any other matter, when our leaders sell our soldiers lives to turks for power and money. It seems to me who ever becomes in charge looks after their hide only and forgets about everyone else, this is typical of power hungry polotitions all over (ruetn to the core). If we do not look after ourselves, who will?
Lara, thank you for the article. Nice sarcasm, and clear thoughts.
I believe, that people will get more sane... in time...
As it is obvious from the judging comments, people think that if they treat a woman like an equal human being and throw away double standards and just be more human, national values would collapse, women will start having kids at 12 y.o. etc. loool ))))))))))))
Lara, ts ts ts, you really don't understand Armenian culture, don't you see, the role of a woman is to serve... whoever there is ))))))))))))))))))
Well, women are becoming stronger and stronger day by day... which scares and challenges some men. Get an upgrade, folks :P.
It should also be known that the Halide Edip encouraged converting Armenian orphans to Islam and sending them to live with Muslim families. My grandfather was briefly one of those orphans but was luckily rescued by the church and sent to live with relatives in Rhode Island.
For anyone, anywhere to assert that minority Anatolian Armenians - most of whom were forced into walking, barely clothed and starving, on dusty roads to Syria, could have decimated the vastly superior armed forces of the Ottoman army of Kurdish bandoleers is just ridiculous. The myth of an Armenian military capable of doing anything is beyond crazy. Please, read some history - find a copy of Dr. Howard M. Sachar's book, The Emergence of the Middle East: 1914 - 1923. It has the best and most historically accurate recount of what happened in Anatolia during those years. It is unbiased and covers all sides during this period. It is invaluable. It will open your eyes to the truth, which has many sides, but none that justify what the CUP did to the Armenians.
Yes, Murat....of course, there have been plenty of Ataturk-types on the stage of world history: Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Mussolini are just a few. All have been thrown into the trashbin of history as brutal, fascist dictators w/ murderous ultranationalist agendas. All of those countries were abused by a crazy, self-absorbed leader and only blossomed after he and his image were gone for good. Turks have been brainwashed into believing that Ataturk - the well known non-Turk who had nothing to do w/ central Asia and very little to do w/ Islam - was their saviour. What a joke! I'll admit that today Turkey is improving, but not because of Ataturk, but because people there are finally realizing how damaging his legacy has been in the modern world. Turkey will improve even more, as long as it can throw off the constrictions of Ataturk and the murderous army that worships him. They are both from another era and have no useful place anymore, especially an army that brutalizes its own fellow citizens w/ fear and terror. There is nothing less democratic than that, no matter what you say or think.
Dear Mr.Manoyan.
As a director of the ARF bureau political affaires in yerevan Armenia.of all people you should know better.to what this people went through,first the 1915 then the communist regime.Do you think this people give a rats about televising of what happened 90 years ago?
I do not know to what extand the ARF activities are around the rest of the world (now).but as an individual and very concerned Armenian believe you me, if it is the same as in Australia`s ARF Melbourne and Sydney.God helps us all.
Lets not leave out the other Melbourne Organizations,such the AGBU,the ARS,the Church board and with no exception leaving any one organization out.
Mr.Manoyan.
Remember Palestine? in 1945 and 3 years down the track 1948 it became Israel?
if only one day all this prominant? organizers? blow their horns at the same rythem that will be something?
TO KAREKIN:
MR. KAREKIN, IS IT YOUR FULL TIME OR PART JOB, WRITING COMMENTS ABOUT ARMENIAN AND TURKISH CONFLICT, I THINK IT IS, I CAN'T CATCH UP WITH YOUR SPEED, DO YOU GET PAID FOR THIS? I MEAN LOOK AT YOU AT THE MIRROR, AND GET LIFE!..
YOU ARE FULL OF HATRED, HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH YOUR-SELF DAY IN DAY OUT, IT MUST BE VERY DIFFICULT BEING YOU...LOOK AMERICAN POLITICIANS THEY VOTED FOR THE FAVOUR OF GENOCIDE . I HOPE THAT KEEPS YOU HAPPY .I DON'T HATE ANY ARMENIAN, WE MOVED ON......BUT WE KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED AT EAST OF TURKEY BETWEEN 1914-15, SO DO YOU.....CHEER UP YOU WON...BUT NOT IN YOUR CONSCIOUS...YOUR BELOVED ARMENIAN REPUBLIC NOT INTERESTED OF OPENING THEIR ARCHIVES FOR THE TRUTH TO COME OUT...
Hi Kristi!
I, too, enjoyed reading your comments of the 3 Armenian women that have inspired
your life to good works. You, as well, have inspired others. I remember well the days
we spent working, touring, and dancing that last evening at the office headquarters. I
also was drawn to Gohar by her sensitive spirit of gentleness and caring. It was a deeply
satisfying experience. And it will no doubt be a wonderful year for Womens' Build in
Armenia. May this day, and everyone that follows, bring you new and meaningful
discoveries. You are appreciated.
I agreed with what you said so much that I felt it had to be repeated:
You, Robert, obviously, have been trained to worship Ataturk, a drunken, fake Turk, fake Muslim….as if he’s a god of some sort. What a sales job he did on you and the rest of Turkey! Thankfully, most Armenians live outside of Turkey now and have no obligation to worship the fake god, Ataturk. Well, get real and see thru the facade. We don’t worship dictators, especially nutcases who demand that their photos appear all over the country. All you seem to enjoy doing is blaming the victims of Turkish atrocity for their own demise. You and the rest of the fake Turks needed and still need a scapegoat to blame for the end of your empire, but guess what? That end had nothing to do with Armenians…but had alot to do w/ criminalswho took over the empire, duped the sultan, bankrupted the Ottoman treasury, murdered 20% of the population and stole their land, businesses and homes. If you see fit to defend them, then you are equally criminal, and I feel sorry for you. The whole world has seen what Turkey has done, not only to Armenians, but to Kurds, Alevis and lots of others who have lived there long before Turks ever arrived there. Face it…Turks created nothing on their own…they even used the Arabic alphabet because they had no writing of their own, and then used the minorities to do all their work for them. Not even the sultan’s children were Turkish! They were products of their concubines, who weren’t Turks at all. It’s all been a big farce Robert, a big lie…Turkey is built on a mountain of lies and the remains of those they used along the way, and is a poor excuse for a country.
To Armani of Georgia: We Armenians don't end up in the library to do research about the Genocide. Instead we heard the testimony of the eye witnesses who were our grandparents. They told us about the crimes against God of the decapitations by Turkish soldiers of their siblings and parents. The theft of their properties etc...
We don't need to go to the library. Turks, however, urgently need to do so.
Comment
Ay Avet , I live in Yerevan and tired of entire 15 or so TV stations with their russian programs , mob , latino and cheap talk shows and specially 8am music videos. These are not waste or stupidifying the public ??? and you call session of US Congress waste?? where Armenian Ambassador along with parliamentarians sitting in the chambre to witness the votings ?? Ay du nzovyal.
My name is Kurt.. I am a Turk and that is my name. You must be falsifier , but I am NOT.
say lie 10 times and it becomes a reality. This is what you are saying since 1960s. Turks has every right to defend their homeland. If you go back to millions of years back. Then Armenians must leave todays armenia.
why there is NOT even one Turk lives in todays armenia? Turks were killed by Armenian Hayduts and Dasnaks you know it by your name. Why there was nothing happened in 1000 years that Armenian lived in Turkish lands. even armenian patriarch was invited to move their headquarter to Istanbul and created patriarch in Istanbul for Armenians by Whom Fatih Sultan Mehmet.
Armenians had wore french army uniforms to kill the Turks in Eastern Turkey. Turkey"s population was 12 million at that point and 1.5 killed and how many armenians left Turkey Do you know? Then 50% of the Turkey's population was Armenian!!!!!!!!! please be real and get rid of your lies and be honest. You will be losing support and people in even california now are tired of your lies.
Why there was not even one Armenian died in Istanbul and Izmir and Ankara. Turkey had every right to move its citizens from one place to next, from some parts to Syria , Lebanon at that point so armenians could not join forces of Russian and French forces to kill innocent Turks.
This what happened. Unfortunately, we helped every Armenian to grow and become a real citizen.
Azeri turks had not done much to Armenians in Baku and they had left to back to Erivan as the invasion continued by the armeinan forces of karabagh, Azeri territory.
Today armenia is Azeri Turks homeland and you should thanjk to russians who has given a homeland in that area. even the strip area between Nahcievan and Azeri land was given to Armenia by devil stalin in 1936. So, please be real..
Living ina land where you are a very tiny minority does not mean that you ownd the whole land Mr. This is the reality unfortunately....I remind to you.
Best regards from Sunny Istanbul Turkey
John..
WELL SAID MY FRIEND.. WELL SAID...:)
G
Yeah I'll take "Kurt" seriously, when he learns how to present sources for his accusations...and learn **** english.
Astute observations.
Wow, there are a few points I'd like to critique about this article. It amuses me nonetheless.
Schizophrenia is ill defined and contributes to a general misunderstanding of the mental illness and its label which is so loosely used. Polarity in behavior cannot be nudged into the schizophrenia category and you as an md should be prepared to defend your use of the term, especially if you use your doctoral title underneath the title of your article.
I second the language issue that "Avetis" brings up. There is an overwhelming linguistic consensus that Armenian is an indo-european language bearing no more resemblance to balto-slavic languages than Sanskrit does to Greek.
There are other people in this world who share your ethnic background but are less concerned with ideas and more concerned with their immediate reality. This is not schizophrenia, but perhaps a soberness that has not gotten a hold of you yet.
I do agree, however, that there is a discord b/w the diaspora and 'gagos' that needs to me addressed. I look forward to you talking about this in the future.
Don't belive in Armenians. This is how their real face is :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esenboğa_Airport_attack
Erik from Armenia,
If you were not already married, I would probably propose to you!
Thanks for that note on Armenian kitchen slavery! Ha! True indeed!
Yelena from America
Vahe, I suggest you pull your head out of you know what and begin watching the better programs on Armenian TV instead... All you are suggesting is replacing one waste with another? Russian programs?? It's better than any American crap you find the air... Any amount of money, time and effort spent in Washington is a waste. Instead, our diasporan "leaders" need to work on developing bridges between the Diapora and the Homeland. The wrongs of our history can only be corrected be having a prosperous and powerful republic in the Caucasus. But I don't expect the likes of you to understand what I'm saying...
What's so honorable or proud about two Armenians serving the military industrial complex of a bloodthirsty empire hijacked by special foreign interest??? They are tools in the massive/bloody/corrupt war machine; a war machine that would not think twice about erasing Armenia from the map if it could...
Lahmajoun: "Is it me being cynical, or have the jewish media bosses decided to show to the mongolians who is your daddy by firing this as a warning shot ? Bob Simon’s report was pretty half-baked on purpose, if you wanna know my opinion. The guy’s a veteran Mideast correspondent, he oughta know better.
Also, check out the contortions Wolf “AIPAC” Blitz has to go through whenever reporting on Armenian Genocide for CNN."
_______________________________________________
You hit the hammer right on the nail Lahmajoun. Remember also, the guy who started "60 Minutes", the proxy for the ADL and the Turkish Lobby, passed away recently.
America's First Amendment rights have been hijacked by a foriegn third world country who consistently commits state sponsored terrorism against its own population.
Remember, this is a country that denied that Kurds lived in the eastern part of Turkey. Remember also, that we Americans invaded Iraq in 1991 to save the Kurds from that evil dictator Sadam. The question is why didn't we bomb the living daylights out of Turkey for their treatment of the Kurds?
Very well said Mr. Sassounian,
Fact of the matter is, that the Armenian side now has incredible footage and recorded comments from both Obama and Clinton, that if published in an aggressive campaign can do their already dying credibility major damage. We need documentary makers to prepare films on how the relationship between the Obama Administration and the Armenian community evolved from the presidential campaign to the present. Many titles come to mind: "The Obama Administration working against the will of the American people", "Clinton showing her true colors...not that beautiful", "President of what change?!...", "The American Moral Compass on sale to the highest bidder".... Bottom line we do not have Turkey's economic influence on this country, so we need to launch a campaign that speaks to the hearts and minds of decent regular Americans, who do not have the power that the big corporations enjoy on the hill, and who were courageously represented by the 23 congressmen who voted for the resolution. We need to reach them via the Internet and all communication venues.
The passing of the resolution was a great victory for truth, justice, and a small minority that continues to fight against all odds for justice for the most barbaric and uncivilized crimes of all time: the Armenian Genocide. This was our lobbyists' moment in the sun. They proved themselves worthy descendents of our legendary heroes. As a matter of fact, they are our modern day heroes. The US is in a very sad place right now. It has become the laughing stock of Europe which has mostly acknowledged the Armenian Genocide. It is ill with corruption and recession. And the main reason why it is in this state is because it has long ago veered away from the vision and morality of its founding fathers. As minor of an issue as it might seem to the Americans, not acknowledging the Armenian Genocide, is erroding the idea of the US as a leading super power even more.
Comment-Dear Sassounian,
I 100% agree with you, it is the time to be tough, it is the time to show
Armenian Americans power without hesitation. Enough is enough. You Armenia Americans have to show the congressmen that they are not (even president or secretary of state) aloud to sell Armenian Genocide.
Haikas Bedrossian
Sydney, Australia
No one pays me for any of this...and, none of these writings are my 'opinions'. This is historic fact I am citing here, not hearsay, not gibberish. For those who are wondering, I have a graduate level background in middle eastern history which apparently, very few of you seem to have. While my family is from Turkey, I am not biased or influenced by political loyalties or nationalism, and have no need to defend anyone or anything, but the facts are the facts. Let's all focus on those and be honest about them. I stand by my words, from start to finish, because it is all fact, not fiction.
Comment
Dear Mr. Bell,I would suggest-I never advise, or offer.Please get hold from an Armeian Library books by Prof.Richard g. Hovhannissian-has written a dozen or so re our-Armenian-recent history,i.e.,100/120 yrs ors o.One in 4 volumes, Republic of Armenia,then "Great Britain and the Armenian question' then if you can read in French,or frinds Les Grads Puisance,L'empire ttoam et la Questionne Armenien',Prof. Vahakn Dadrian's " Turkish Military Tribunal' etc., these are where our-Armenian -history re-commences after 600 yrs of serfdom ,pretty much or worse than the slaves in America/Elsewhere...but...since our history is Ten times, twenty ties fold old than the the recent one, you will note that we have had kings ,we have been there on Armenian soil Whether present R.of Armenia and/0r the Western Armeian lands for millenia.Some "kind" turks here online do not ealize that Armenians HAD ALL THE RIGHT TO ASPIRE,STRUGGLE AND FIGHT FOR THEIR INDEPENDENCE WHICH OCCURRED AFTER 600 YEARS OF being under ttoman rule and partially Persian,Russian as well.We are a nation (now Nation/State) that likle the Spanish people,after -wat similarity- 600 yrs of being conquered and ruled by North African khaliphates...got armed and the princes there united under Izabel La Catolica-who later decared herself Queen of Spain) drove the invader/Conquerers out OUT!!!!
SO ARMENIANS HAVE ,HAVE HAD ALL THE RIGHT TO DO JUST TODAY ON ARMENIAN H1 HOW ARMENIANS MUSTERED UP CLOUT FORMED AN ARMY WTH RUSSIAN TRAINED OFFICERS(WHAT 'S WRONG WITH THAT?IF TURKISH ARMY IS BEING TRAIEND BY U.S. ONE? EH, THEN FOUGHT AT SARDARABAD AND HELD THE TURKISH ARMIES BACK AND DECLARED INDEPENDENCE,BEFORE THEY COULD COME INTO EASTERN ARMEIA..INDEED ,READ HIOSTORY THEN ATATURK WELL FIRBISHED WITH BRIOTISH ARMAMENT A T KARS CAME UPON NEWLY INDEPENDENT ARMENIA AND AND ON THE OTHER SIDE THE RD ARMIES,SO ARMENIANS PREFERRED TO GIVE IN TO THE LATTER PLEASE READ HISTORY..THSE TURKISHJ PEOPLE HERE THINK THEY KNOW THAT OR ELSE THEY STILL THINK THEY ARE OTTOMAN EMPIRES.MY FRIENDS BRITSH EMPIRES BECAME GREAT BRIATAIN THEM U.K... WHAT DOS THAT SUGGEST, GHANDI NCIELY COURTEOUSLY ASKED THEM OUT OF IDA..DR, MOSSADEQUE OF IRAN LIKEWISE ASKED THE BRITS OUT OF THE OIL RICH IRAN'S OILDFIELDS, PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR LAND AND HAVE BEEN THERE ARE ENTITLED TO THAT.AM TYPONG FAST I CANNO TEACH HISTORY AND SIMIARITIES HERE.PLEASE FORGIVE MY BAD TYPING WHAT'S MORE AM CLOSE TO 80 AND FINGERS ARE NOT LONGER LIKE BEFORE..PLEASE GO TO LIBRARIES AND DO RESEARCXH THERE DEAR TURKISH INTELELCTUALS TOO.
BEST RGDS,
TO ALL
Unfortunately, Mrs. Hillary is not and will not be the only politician to declare such contradictory views on our ongoing effort of getting this and/or future resolutions passed. As for our president, his actions towards this cause do not surprise nor phase me since he's not the only president who has over promised and under delivered. The current "WAR" and the so called hostile environment that Iran has created for its neighbors, namely Israel, has taken a toll on their decision making process and that is something that can also be blamed.
I think Armenia government (those with half a brain left) needs to join with the powers of Diaspora and make an effort to have a mutual agreement and better communication in order to have an influence on this effort. This should be a joint venture with no fine lines. When we have individual(s) with hierarchical powers in Armenian government passing laws and sending the wrong message to the apposing countries, of course things will be distorted.
My hat goes out to Chairman Howard Berman and those other 22 indiviuals who voted for the resolution. These are the types of politicians we need, but regretfully, most are already corrupt.
Comment
All of 3 of you, Mr. Sassounian, Katia, and Mr. Bedrossian could have worded your comments and observation more accurately.
Let's all do our part for justice and truth to prevail. God is the Final Judge anyway! Guilty people will always be accounatble to HIM!
Comment
Sorry folks, I missed the word NOT in my above note...it should have read "could NOT have worded your comments..."
Soory!
Katia,
As always, when i read your posts, i get chills .. you are a great mind...I hope we can vote for you as the President..:)
Among those who stand strong for truth, justice and doing the right thing....
I am ready to do anything necessary to get our resolution passed once and for all..
G
Comment
Thank you Mr. Hachikian for speaking, loud and clear, on behalf of our people and challenging others, who seem to have trouble keeping their word, to reconsider their wrong conduct, and do the right thing!.
To Karekin, who says we are biased and uneducated? Our families were from what is now Turkey as well. Our families were living in what is now called Turkey for thousands of years before your ancestors from Ghengis Khan came and spread.
Historically, your family was from western China and the Uighur tribes that migrated onto Armenian lands.
A degree in middle eastern studies is useless on these topics. Armenians are Europeans not Arabs. Turks are Asians and not Europeans. What you need is a degree in Asian or European studies to say you are an authority on the subject and discuss why Turks are so dispised in Romania, Hungry, Germany, Bulgaria etc...
Will these be videotaped/broadcast?
I am interested in attending virtually, perhaps?
Bravo Felix for serving your country through military service and fellow human beings through hospital work. And bravo to your sons for choosing to follow their father to serve their country, particularly during this International Crisis.
And in serving their country, they support the 4th of the "Four Freedoms" put forward by President Roosevelt at the start of World War 2, namely, "Freedom from Fear" of terrorist attacks like that of Sept. 11.
And equally significant is that all three of them will support the first of the Four Freedoms, that of speaking what's on your mind.
With all its faults the US of A still took in our people in the aftermath of the Genocide.
Welcome back Ragnar. Nice to hear a voice of reason and if not complete thruth. Yes, it is repetitive and I should know better, why one expects a different result repeating the same arguments and facts and getting the same response every time, I have no idea. I do not mind, if it seeds one question mark in one single mind, it makes it worthwhile.
I fail to see with what impunity those who were found to have mistreated Armenian refugees improperly were treated themselves. At least there were courts. At least there were trials. At least there were convictions and not the least, at least one hanging, of a Kaymakam no less. At least there was some ackowledgement of wrong doing. I am sure Armenians would have liked more and more of the defeated Ottomans tried and hanged. Afterwards, Armenian assasins themsleves tracked those whom they considered responsible at the highest levels and hunted them down, with impunity I might add. What other justice was left to extract? You think maybe a mass killing of more Turks would have satisfied the blood lust. Well, maybe, ASALA did try after all, with impunity again.
Would you care to comment now on how many of the Armenian leaders and revolutionaries have faced the music? I mean in any other part of the world, at any time in history, if a group of fanatics (we call them Taliban now) led their people to such disasters and eventually have them evicted from their ancestoral lands and left them destitude, sick and famished, belive me and I am sure you already know, heads would have rolled. If Enver and Talat had survived the war and caught, Turkish Nationalists would have prosecuted them for throwing the country into the meat grinder of WWI. Does anyone have any doubts?
So tell us then how and when the leaders of the Armenian gangs and murderers and insurgents, who took so many lives, who caused so much pain and loss, both of Turks and Armenians, faced the music?
As it turns out, I have submitted verifable information and facts, as expected the responses are tinged with racial overtones and slurs, seems so improtant to an Armenian mind.
What kind of genocide is thsi that sets up orphanages for the soon to be genocided?
And as expected, the ignorant and clueless still shout from the tree tops, just to make sure we all appreciate the deep chasm they have between their ears....
I am glad that the reign of armenian diaspora over armenia is coming to an end. this is the only way we could have peace in the caucasus.
the greed of the diaspora has caused all the mess in the caucasus. you (the diaspora) have no idea what your armenian fellows in armenia have had to put up so far socaially and economically, while you are happy with your beautiful cars, houses and white chocolate mochas...
p.s: armenianweekly: please put my comment on the website so you show that you really have the guts to confront opposite ideas.
Get a grip, Avetis! Kudos to 2 young and dedicated Armenian Americans. Your mixing your own views of American diplomacy with what these kids represent... leadership, academics, integrity, and drive. I would be proud to call them my sons.
Vahe jan, chgitem ete du iroq Hayastanum es aprum te votch bayc - watching US politicians blow hot air up Armenian asses once a year is the most "stupidifying" thing anyone anywhere can do... Ok aper jan? Tsavd tanem...
Dear Gayane!
And I always look forward to your passionate comments and motivating spirit that add so much excitement to these posts! You are the life of these posts!
Keep the positive energy coming....
I also salute Haikas from Australia! My hope is that the circle of these conversations will broaden to include Armenians from many other countries, especially from Armenia. It is very healthy to carry on a conversation about important issues that affect all Armenians, such as the Resolution that was just passed. The Internet is offering our journalists and communities in general a great opportunity to connect and share ideas. Let's make the most of it.
Centuries ago An Ottoman Emperor said: " The Land which has been taken by Blood, will be just given by Blood ".
whtever u guys talk, nothing will change.
I agree fullheartedly with Mr Sassounians recommendation to prevent the reelection of opposing representatives and senators. My representative is a sponsor of the resolution. But i would like to be active on this issue; but i don't know how I can be unless our organizations ANCA,Assembly, would bring to our attention who the opponents of these representatives are , so we can donate money towards their election. Thats the only way non district Armenians can help defeat some of these nondistrict representatives.
This has come up about Cenk and his show a lot. Whatever his defenders have to say, if he really was not a genocide denier and wanted to nip the whole thing in the bud, it would not be difficult to make a public statement and go on record to that effect. He has not done so.
Some of the latest of him not speaking up on this here -
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2008/3/3/14450/33428/Diary/Cenk-Uygur-owes-us-explanation-regarding-Armenian-Genocide
Thank you Dear Katia.. That was definintely a boost to my ego.. Needed that..:)
Don't you worry.. I will continue my fight along side with you and the rest who have the same passion and love for our country.
Garo jan.. I agree with you.. The only way we can support besides our own representatives is with financial help.. I do my best to donate as little as I can (hopefully I can get a higher paying job so I can do more than what I do now) but every penny counts.. If everyone donates $10 even, it will add up.
Ahmet,
As you see your comments were posted.. Please do not think that Armenians are afraid of opposition.. for 95 years we fought the opposition and hence why we are at the brick of victory.. and don't worry.. even if we don't win, we will continue to fight you and people alike...Your comment about diaspora not knowing what our brothers and sisters are going through in Armenia is ignorant and unintelligent.. It is because we know so well how it is in Armenia that we put our finances, time and energy to make something out of this mess and now you are telling me that I dont' know what is going on in Armenia? Do you have any idea who I have in ARmenia, how many families I support in Armenia and the things I do for my country? You may see the disconnect between the govt and the people.. but rest assure, your ignorant comment about how we live in United States with our cars, homes and moch lattes will not be taken very lightly.. For your own information, i have no house, no expensive cars and i dont' drink coffee let alone mocha latte... Do me a favor.. instead of trying to act like you are tough because you are posting on an Armenian site, make sure you do your research first and then voice your opinion.. Don't add to the embarassment of how unitelligent and ignorant your people already add...
God Bless you my child..
Gayane
Andre, I am sure if you looked hard enough you'd find Armenians honorably serving in the Turkish military today as well. It's primarily because of Armenian attitudes like you that we have gotten no where as a nation. And guess what, Andre? These "kids" directly represent "American diplomacy" and they will be a small gear in the criminal war machine.
What happen to my comment about the Fox News spokesperson Vee?
Mr Murat,
Thank you for your scewed comments to try to portray this picture of Armenians who magically raised themselves and attacked Turks.. The Armenians are the rebells who murdered, killed, raped, and destroyed a culture, and a race.. ARE YOU FOR REAL?
Please... every time I see your name, my blood pressure goes up.. Do me a favor and go back to Turkey or wherever you came from because honestly, you are definintely turning this tide into a mud.. and I am not planning to have a bad month because of your incompetent comments.....
Just so you know... Justice was not done by killing Enver and Talaat point blank...that was a pure mercy on them.. they and those who orchastrated The Genocide should have been thrown into the lion den just like in the Roman Times.. and have them torn into pieces by the animals.. maybe that would have been a proper punishment for them..
Thank you and have a nice evening..
G
Comment
Avetis, you took the sentiments right out of my mouth. My thoughts exactly! Proudly defending the country that still denies the genocide. Wake up jingo Armenians.
I always enjoy your articles, Mr. Sassounian, but why do you care so much about this NON-binding issue? All those dollars spent going from the ANCA to the pockets of politicians...imagine what just a fraction of that could do to Armenia...helping orphans, political prisoners, develop free press, economy, rehabilitation, the poor and sick. Instead, we get d..k-teased by the flirt of an opportunity that the US, who has a DEEP military, economic, and political agreements with turkey, will actually "insult" them with a confrontation with their history, when the U.S. has done so much and more (to more people as well).
I'm all for giving the turks as much hell as possible, but to honestly expect so much from the US and to waste so much when so many of our people in Armenia could do so much better with the money dumped instead into politician pockets (and of course the usual skimming off the top for the fundraisers, ect)...we still have the Ottoman mentality, as Ara Baliozian describes.
If you knew anything about my ancestors, you'd know that they were in Anatolia long before any Turks or Mongols arrived there, by thousands of years. When you assume, you are attempting to make an ass of both you and me. Please don't do that. And for the record, we Armenians are not, in the least, 'Europeans'. Armenia is and always has technically been in Asia... not Europe, and no map shows it otherwise.
Yes, I would be very happy if the administration did not oppose the resolution and I would be extremely happy if the resolution is passed by the full House. But I ask why so many of us place so much weight on this resolution. Maybe I am missing something but let's say it passes next year (or I hope this year). What's next? What does it do other than elevate the moral standing of the USA . Maybe it's not taking any resources away from other things but if it is, I would hope we place more energy and resources in making Armenia stronger and more prosperous than chasing after a resolution stuck in replay mode for the past 30 plus years. We should not place so much energy in something which will only give us an emotional reward. We need to place energy in efforts that bring real (not just emotional) rewards.
Most who comment in Armenian Weekly have more faith in people than I do. That's how I can explain why I would tell friends and family prior to the elections that Obama is lying about Genocide recognition and McCain is telling the truth. Although I voted for Obama, (obviously not because I believed he would support Genocide recognition), I respect McCain for his honesty (he did not pledge that he would support recognition), and I despise Obama for lying (even though I am not surprised and expected that he was lying).
Murat
Yes, it is good that people stay in the debate. And we may repeat our position, of course, but not argue it by consistently adressing the weakest arguments of our adversary. This is repetition.
I challenge you to document that one single person was tried and punished for atrocities against Armenians in courts outside Greater Syria. As far as I know the list of all Ottoman court martials in the period 1914-1918 is by now available for independent scholars. Halacolgu and Sarinay held that many were punished for atrocities against Armenians, but since the rebuttal by Akcam they have been remarkably silent.
Thank you Kevin for writing to the president of the United States , I think he needs a very good reminder to what he pledged to the Armenian people when he was a sanator he should by all means recognise the genocide as he promissed to our people......best regards ......steve
I know Ruzan very closely and I totally agree with every single word I have read here !!! And really HAPPY WOMEN's DAY dear all!
To all Armenians, please be politically active and contact your representatives either thanking them for their pro vote or expressing your displeasure in their nay vote, with regard to the Resolution in the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs.
Here are the results, you know what you must do!
Sheila Jackson Lee
—
Bill Delahunt
con
Gregory W. Meeks
con
Russ Carnahan
con
Gerald E. Connolly
con
Michael E. McMahon
con
John S. Tanner
con
Mike Ross
con
Brad Miller
con
David Scott
con
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen
con
Dan Burton
con
Ron Paul
con
Jeff Flake
con
Mike Pence
con
Joe Wilson
con
John Boozman
con
J. Gresham Barrett
con
Connie Mack
con
Jeff Fortenberry
con
Michael T. McCaul
con
Ted Poe
con
Bob Inglis
con
Howard L. Berman
pro
Gary L. Ackerman
pro
Eni F.H. Faleomavaega
pro
Donald M. Payne
pro
Brad Sherman
pro
Eliot L. Engel
pro
Diane E. Watson
pro
Albio Sires
pro
Gene Green
pro
Lynn Woolsey
pro
Barbara Lee
pro
Shelley Berkley
pro
Joseph Crowley
pro
Jim Costa
pro
Keith Ellison
pro
Gabrielle Giffords
pro
Ron Klein
pro
Christopher H. Smith
pro
Elton Gallegly
pro
Dana Rohrabacher
pro
Donald A. Manzullo
pro
Edward R. Royce
pro
Gus Bilirakis
pro
Sheila Jackson Lee
—
Bill Delahunt
con
Gregory W. Meeks
con
Russ Carnahan
con
Gerald E. Connolly
con
Michael E. McMahon
con
John S. Tanner
con
Mike Ross
con
Brad Miller
con
David Scott
con
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen
con
Dan Burton
con
Ron Paul
con
Jeff Flake
con
Mike Pence
con
Joe Wilson
con
John Boozman
con
J. Gresham Barrett
con
Connie Mack
con
Jeff Fortenberry
con
Michael T. McCaul
con
Ted Poe
con
Bob Inglis
con
Howard L. Berman
pro
Gary L. Ackerman
pro
Eni F.H. Faleomavaega
pro
Donald M. Payne
pro
Brad Sherman
pro
Eliot L. Engel
pro
Diane E. Watson
pro
Albio Sires
pro
Gene Green
pro
Lynn Woolsey
pro
Barbara Lee
pro
Shelley Berkley
pro
Joseph Crowley
pro
Jim Costa
pro
Keith Ellison
pro
Gabrielle Giffords
pro
Ron Klein
pro
Christopher H. Smith
pro
Elton Gallegly
pro
Dana Rohrabacher
pro
Donald A. Manzullo
pro
Edward R. Royce
pro
Gus Bilirakis
pro
Comment I can not believe that any body can be proved of suppressing poorer nations by a super bully. War should be out of necessity for defending human rights, not for oil money, and walking all over poorer nations rights.
Your sons should be proved of defending rights and freedoms not having a hand in taking the rights of poorer nations, that are powerless in defending themselves.
It is a human tragedy when the new generation is being brain washed in to confusing a soldiers duty, which is defending the rights, not supporting a super powers hunger for money and power to walk all over the rights.
Seda Vartanian
The reality is, there no debate, at least among most educated people in the world. The Ottoman govt conducted ethnic cleansing on a mass scale and destroyed 20 - 25% of the native population of Anatolia and replaced them with non-Turkish imports from the Balkans. Anyone who disputes this history or refuses to acknowledge it is akin to neo-Nazis who insist Hitler only acted in a benevolent, caring way towards the Jews. Here, we have neo-Ittihadists who seem to think and want us to believe that the CUP was a charitable organization. They are pushing govt propaganda that equates the actions of ASALA to the murders of 1.5 million people, as if it's remotely comparable. Yes, Armenians fought back, but in a very limited way...it's called self-defense - just as the Palestinians are fighting back today, to keep their land, their homes and their lives, but were essentially powerless against the forces of the empire and the racist psychopaths of the CUP. For Turkish nationalists to defend what happened is beyond stupid, and, it's a clear propaganda ploy. They are defending murderers and liars and thieves...and if they were remotely intelligent human beings, would be embarrassed by it.
Armenians are not Asians. The Armenian language is European. Turks are Asians and their language is spoken in China by the Uighur tribes. Turks are the decendants of Ghengis Khan. Furthermore, Armenians are not middle eastern or Arabs. These are historical facts that anyone with a library card can figure out.
In all honesty, Giro doesn't sound like a professional politician. He should have better things to worry about in Armenia than airing a worthless program on Armenian television. I am afraid that the "opposition" in Armenia is doing a getter job against itself than against its opponents...
"watching US politicians blow hot air up Armenian asses once a year is the most “stupidifying” thing anyone anywhere can do…"
Quoted for truth! LOL
The US military stopped serving the US a long time ago, sometime between the first and second world wars I would say. Today, the US military is a bloody tool in the hands of multinational corporations hellbent on subjugating weak peoples with natural resources. Trying to portray these kids as proud "Armenians" is yet another joke. Real "Armenians" would want to serve their homeland in Armenia. Real Armenians would want to serve the Armenian military, a military that is honored with the sacred task of defending its home turf from the US military supported likes of Turkey and Azerbaijan.
Dear Shantagizoum,
when Petrol is finished in the Middle-Est, another Truth shall be born. I just hope than Armenia and Artsakh will be ready, I just hope... There are about 30 years left! I certainly will not see.
Harkanknerov
The dust has settled and we know the players, it is time for all Armenian Americans across the board to push the House leaders to take on HR-252. If we stay idle, it will have the same fate as the one in 2007 and be doomed. Since this administration has promised Turkey that this resolution will never hit the floor, we should show our anger and resolve by campaigning for it wholeheartedly plus organizing loud and rowdy demonstrations in front of Federal buildings across the nation for the media to cover them.
Murat:
it seems that you enjoy so much insulting others, and the one shouting from tree tops most loudly is you. By repeatedly caling everybody "ignorant" you demonstrate how desparate you are in your efforts to deny history. Facts speak for themselves and they are not in your favor. The entire world knows the truth. I can understand the shame and embarrassment that you may be feeling but I recommend that you get over it.
Did you open the link to the article by Robert Fisk about that I provided and read the article about the orphanage that you keep talking about? The misery and horror that these poor children had to go through? Maybe you did but you pretend that you didn't. Here it is for you again. Unlike you, others see it as proof of the genocide.
Robert Fisk: Living proof of the Armenian genocide
The US wants to deny that Turkey's slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 was genocide. But the evidence is there, in a hilltop orphanage near Beirut
It's only a small grave, a rectangle of cheap concrete marking it out, blessed by a flourish of wild yellow lilies. Inside are the powdered bones and skulls and bits of femur of up to 300 children, Armenian orphans of the great 1915 genocide who died of cholera and starvation as the Turkish authorities tried to "Turkify" them in a converted Catholic college high above Beirut. But for once, it is the almost unknown story of the surviving 1,200 children – between three and 15 years old – who lived in the crowded dormitory of this ironically beautiful cut-stone school that proves that the Turks did indeed commit genocide against the Armenians in 1915.
Barack Obama and his pliant Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton – who are now campaigning so pitifully to prevent the US Congress acknowledging that the Ottoman Turkish massacre of 1.5 million Armenians was a genocide – should come here to this Lebanese hilltop village and hang their heads in shame. For this is a tragic, appalling tale of brutality against small and defenceless children whose families had already been murdered by Turkish forces at the height of the First World War, some of whom were to recall how they were forced to grind up and eat the skeletons of their dead fellow child orphans in order to survive starvation.
Jemal Pasha, one of the architects of the 1915 genocide, and – alas – Turkey's first feminist, Halide Edip Adivar, helped to run this orphanage of terror in which Armenian children were systematically deprived of their Armenian identity and given new Turkish names, forced to become Muslims and beaten savagely if they were heard to speak Armenian. The Antoura Lazarist college priests have recorded how its original Lazarist teachers were expelled by the Turks and how Jemal Pasha presented himself at the front door with his German bodyguard after a muezzin began calling for Muslim prayers once the statue of the Virgin Mary had been taken from the belfry.
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Hitherto, the argument that Armenians suffered a genocide has rested on the deliberate nature of the slaughter. But Article II of the 1951 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide specifically states that the definition of genocide – "to destroy in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" – includes "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group". This is exactly what the Turks did in Lebanon. Photographs still exist of hundreds of near-naked Armenian children performing physical exercises in the college grounds. One even shows Jemal Pasha standing on the steps in 1916, next to the young and beautiful Halide Adivar who – after some reluctance – agreed to run the orphanage.
Before he died in 1989, Karnig Panian – who was six years old when he arrived at Antoura in 1916 – recorded in Armenian how his own name was changed and how he was given a number, 551, as his identity. "At every sunset in the presence of over 1,000 orphans, when the Turkish flag was lowered, 'Long Live General Pasha!' was recited. That was the first part of the ceremony. Then it was time for punishment for the wrongdoers of the day. They beat us with the falakha [a rod used to beat the soles of the feet], and the top-rank punishment was for speaking Armenian."
Panian described how, after cruel treatment or through physical weakness, many children died. They were buried behind the old college chapel. "At night, the jackals and wild dogs would dig them up and throw their bones here and there ... at night, kids would run out to the nearby forest to get apples or any fruits they could find – and their feet would hit bones. They would take these bones back to their rooms and secretly grind them to make soup, or mix them with grain so they could eat them as there was not enough food at the orphanage. They were eating the bones of their dead friends."
Using college records, Emile Joppin, the head priest at the Lazarite Antoura college, wrote in the school's magazine in 1947 that "the Armenian orphans were Islamicised, circumcised and given new Arab or Turkish names. Their new names always kept the initials of the names in which they were baptised. Thus Haroutioun Nadjarian was given the name Hamed Nazih, Boghos Merdanian became Bekir Mohamed, to Sarkis Safarian was given the name Safouad Sulieman."
Lebanese-born Armenian-American electrical engineer Missak Kelechian researches Armenian history as a hobby and hunted down a privately printed and very rare 1918 report by an American Red Cross officer, Major Stephen Trowbridge, who arrived at the Antoura college after its liberation by British and French troops and who spoke to the surviving orphans. His much earlier account entirely supports that of Father Joppin's 1949 research.
"Every vestige, and as far as possible every memory, of the children's Armenian or Kurdish origin was to be done away with. Turkish names were assigned and the children were compelled to undergo the rites prescribed by Islamic law and tradition ... Not a word of Armenian or Kurdish was allowed. The teachers and overseers were carefully trained to impress Turkish ideas and customs upon the lives of the children and to catechize [sic] them regularly on ... the prestige of the Turkish race."
Halide Adivar, later to be lauded by The New York Times as "the Turkish Joan of Arc" – a description that Armenians obviously questioned – was born in Constantinople in 1884 and attended an American college in the Ottoman capital. She was twice married and wrote nine novels – even Trowbridge was to admit that she was "a lady of remarkable literary ability" – and served as a woman officer in Mustafa Ataturk's Turkish army of liberation after the First World War. She later lived in both Britain and France.
And it was Kelechian yet again who found Adivar's long-forgotten and self-serving memoirs, published in New York in 1926, in which she recalls how Jemal Pasha, commander of the Turkish 4th Army in Damascus, toured Antoura orphanage with her. "I said: 'You have been as good to Armenians as it is possible to be in these hard days. Why do you allow Armenian children to be called by Moslim [sic] names? It looks like turning the Armenians into Moslims, and history some day will revenge it on the coming generation of Turks.' 'You are an idealist,' he answered gravely and like all idealists lack a sense of reality ... This is a Moslem orphanage and only Moslem orphans are allowed.'" According to Adivar, Jemal Pasha said that he "cannot bear to see them die in the streets" and promised they would go "back to their people" after the war.
Adivar says she told the general that: "I will never have anything to do with such an orphanage" but claims that Jemal Pasha replied: "You will if you see them in misery and suffering, you will go to them and not think for a moment about their names and religion." Which is exactly what she did.
Later in the war, however, Adivar spoke to Talaat Pasha, the architect of the 20th century's first holocaust, and recalled how he almost lost his temper when discussing the Armenian "deportations" (as she put it), saying: "Look here, Halide ... I have a heart as good as yours, and it keeps me awake at night to think of the human suffering. But that is a personal thing, and I am here on this earth to think of my people and not of my sensibilities ... There was an equal number of Turks and Moslems massacred during the [1912] Balkan war, yet the world kept a criminal silence. I have the conviction that as long as a nation does the best for its own interests, and succeeds, the world admires it and thinks it moral. I am ready to die for what I have done, and I know that I shall die for it."
The suffering of which Talaat Pasha spoke so chillingly was all too evident to Trowbridge when he himself met the orphans of Antoura. Many had seen their parents murdered and their sisters raped. Levon, who came from Malgara, was driven from his home with his sisters aged 12 and 14. The girls were taken by Kurds – allied to the Turks – as "concubines" and the boy was tortured and starved, Trowbridge records. He was eventually forced by his captors into the Antoura orphanage.
Ten-year-old Takhouhi – her name means "queen" in Armenian and she was from a rich background – from Rodosto on the Sea of Marmara was put with her family on a freight train to Konia. Two of her two brothers died in the truck, both parents caught typhus – they died in the arms of Takhouhi and her oldest brother in Aleppo – and she was eventually taken from him by a Turkish officer, given the Muslim name of Muzeyyan and ended up in Antoura. When Trowbridge suggested that he would try to find someone in Rodosto and return her family's property to her, he said she replied: "I don't want any of those things if I cannot find my brother again." Her brother was later reported to have died in Damascus.
Trowbridge records many other tragedies from the children he found at Antoura, commenting acidly that Halide "and Djemal [sic] Pasha delighted in having their photographs taken on the steps of the orphanage ... posing as the leaders of Ottoman modernism. Did they realise what the outside world would think of those photographs?" According to Trowbridge's account, only 669 of the children finally survived, 456 of them Armenian, 184 of them Kurds, along with 29 Syrians. Talaat Pasha did indeed die for his sins. He was assassinated by an Armenian in Berlin in 1922 – his body was later returned to Turkey on the express orders of Adolf Hitler. Jemal Pasha was murdered in the Turkish town of Tiflis. Halide Edip Adivar lived in England until 1939 when she returned to Turkey, became a professor of English literature, was elected to the Turkish parliament and died in 1964 at the age of 80.
It was only in 1993 that the bones of the children were discovered, when the Lazarite Fathers dug the foundations for new classrooms. What was left of the remains were moved respectfully to the little cemetery where the college's priests lie buried and put in a single, deep grave. Kelechian helped me over a 5ft wall to look at this place of sadness, shaded by tall trees. Neither name-plate nor headstone marks their mass grave.
Murat,
Sorry, for how it came out in the middle but if scroll all the way down you will see the article in normal script. I hope you are happy.
Why bother with Murat? He is just an ADL or Turkish proxy. All the records on the Armenian Genocide are in the library of congress, in the US archives, and well known throughout the world. Turks are on a last ditch effort to eek out some sort of bargain to get into the EU so they can start the occupations and invasions as their ancestor Ghegis Khan did in the past. The EU is not going to allow that. Why should Germany wash its hands before it gets into the EU without Turkey doing the same?
The US and some of the Jewish lobbies are ticked off by the statements and treatment by the Turks of Isreal. They sent a little message to the Mongolians that they are the boss and control congress, 60 Minutes, Charlie Rose, CNN, etc...and especially Fox News.
Good for this family!
"Woman was made from the rib of man. She was not made from his head to top him, nor his feet to be trampled upon. But out of his side to be equal to him; Under his arm to be protected by him And near his heart to be loved by him".
I mention the above quote to remind all Armenian men that it is very important to have full respect towards mothers, daughters, sisters, wives and girlfriends, for they have the same rights as men do. Hence for any relationship to survive it needs mutual respect and understanding of their needs and desires, no matter what they are. You look for roses but find orchids, they are as beautiful and have no thorns.
Gin,
Firstly, I am not being insulting, maybe too sarcastic. My response was to the bigots who spew hate and ethnic and racial slurs, and it is interesting but not surprising that you ignored all insults in these pages but found offense in my rather mild remarks in comparison. I have not insulted anyone more than they insulted themselves.
Secondly, I am still not getting your point. You just re-iterated the points I made. I did not even make any claims actually, just inserted a related historical tid bit. At the same time pointed out the contrast between the genocidal and blood-drinking Turk image usually peddled by likes of you in these forums and the orphanages set up by this blood-thirsty monster Cemal Pasha who was supposed to be killing all these Armenians. It turns out to be the opposite and you just provided more details. I will not shed much tears on the fact that they failed to groom these kids as good Armenians, as I you may agree, there were much wors fates than that.
In any case, if Cemal Pasa was not cowardly murdered by Armenian assasins later, maybe he would have or could have answered for his sins in a court of law.
By the way Tiflis was not a Turkish city. Halide Edip Adivar had to exile herself abroad until after Ataturk's death becasue she did not agree with some his policies and style. Same with her husband.
Copying and pasting is not same as being informed in my opinion.
Well done. This issue needs to be galvanised not only on the political front but
on all fronts; Professional, Cultural, Religious and of course the media.
Sorry...but the insistence on some kind of 'European' heritage for Armenians, who are indigenous to Anatolia and the fertile crescent, is really based on self-hated, which in and of itself comes from a longing to be what we are not....but no, Armenians are not and have never been Europeans. Yes, the Armenian language is in fact Indo-European, and more importantly, probably an even older proto-Indo-European, but that does not mean it is literally, from Europe - it is more truly Indian, than European. The Armenian religious pantheon was closely related to those of Persia for hundreds and hundreds of years, and much of the Armenian language has deep relationships with early Persian, with hundreds of loan words. I find it odd that Armenians feel the need to hitch their horse to something European, when for much of written history, Armenians were always far ahead of anything that ever happened in Europe. If anything, Europe owes alot to Armenians, not the other way around. Armenians have culture that is much older and much more distinguished than anything in Europe, so they have no need to grovel to anything European, so please don't forget that.
To Gayene,
Here is the proof that the diaspore has very little to do with the Armenians in Armenia.Please you do me a favor. The following link is a public opinion survey performed in Armenia in june, 2007 by Heritage Party. Please click on it and open the slide show. There , in the 13th slide, you will see that the biggest problem that Armenians in Armenia face is the acute unemployment. (40% of the population )
Do you know how much the people of Armenia care about the recognition of so called "genocide"? The answer is : ONLY --->%3 !!!!!
Dont you think there is something wrong with this? Dont you think the diaspora is being overly greedy and selfish?
By the way, I am not trying to look tough. The numbers do it on my behalf!!!
After you answer these questions, I have more to ask.
Regards.
the link I wanted to give is:
http://www.heritage.am/files/Armenia%20IRI%20July%202007%20English-Heritage.ppt
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No that's a Cowardly excuse! The main reason is actually "PROVES" that Sarkisian and his Gang of Traitors are in Turkish Government's "PAYROLL"
They should be tried and sentenced for "TREASON(S)"
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I also see a second reason, by showing this to the public, this will show that Tashnagtsoutyoun "ARF", with it's ANC will gain Armenian People's SUPPORT & TRUST & CONFIDENCE!!! This will obviously pave the way for ARF to be the new Government of Armenia! Armenian People will know that Armenia's Present Government did not do anything about it! Knowing this result was "ONLY" ARF's Excessive Devotional Work's Result Only!! That's why I believe they forbid to show this video on Armenia's Public Broadcasting.
Hello Every body,
Much is being said about the Arm. Genocide. Some distant “friends”, are doing their utmost, in order to defend the Turkish cause. That’s their right. Nothing will make them to budge! I’ll try to make some points, which may illuminate these friends’ but of course without moving them from positions.
I had mentioned just one authority, V. Hugo, who had some exact but unkind and unpleasant definition of the Ottoman Turks. Mr. Robert has mentioned several sources, who have either praised the Turks or have tried to discredit us (Armenians). I would like to mention just a few men who may displease our “friend”. He may refer to he following sources:
Anatol France a French very prominent thinker
Arnold Toynbee the world known historian
G. B. Shaw the British writer and playwright of Irish decent.
Winston Churchill ( no need to identify him)
Bertrand Russell the great philosopher
Franz Werfel, the Austrian author of “The Forty days of Musa Dagh”
The prince of Mecca: Sherif Hussein
J. Lepsius the great missionary from Germany in the Ottoman empire.
USA ambassador to Istanbul, Henry Morgenthau
Armin Wagner of Germany. He was an officer commissioned to serve in the Ottoman army.
Fayez Ghossen of Syria
Dr. George Jabbour a prom. Lecturer and writer in Syria.
Fawzi Kawukji of Syria: He was a political and revolutionary figure 1014-1932
Dr. Iskandar Louka a prominent literary figure in Syria
Dr. Hafez Jamali a former president of Arab writers’ union, lecturer, ambassador & minister
Sheikh Hamidi Jarba: chieftain Of Al-Jarba tribe in Syria
Dr. S. Zaher el Din Lebanese historian & lecturer
Samir Arbash Journalist & author
Orhan Pamuk
Taner Akcham
Fathia kochak
Elif Shafak
Plus: The more than 30,000 Turk men & women who apologized to the Armenians because of the Genocide!
Many of the above mentioned figures are very good Moslems. The last few are Turks!
You have also mentioned that Napoleon Bonaparte had dreamed of having Istanbul as his capital. No wonder dear, Emperor Constantine’s hand work served as the capital of the Byzantine empire for just one thousand years. Then it served as the capital of the Ottoman empire, for more than 500 yrs. No wonder. The city has an excellent strategic position. There remains just one small question: why then did the founder of modern Turkey, Ataturk, move the capital far away from Istanbul, to landlocked Ankara?
No one of us has anything against the city. Just the contrary, many Armenian writers have praised that city in their writings. Only the people in charge of the Ottoman empire, planned the Armenian Genocide there. The city itself is guiltless!
It is said, that Armenia has always been a small power. For long centuries it has been subjected to other powers. And that it has given no important figures .Very correct in some respects. Yes, our geographic position has been our curse. But Armenia has had four ruling main dynasties: Ardashsian (200 years), Arshagouni( 375 yrs.) Pakradit (160 yrs) and Roupinian (300yrs). The last dynasty ruled in Cilicia. The appearance of the Seljuk, then Mongol and Ottoman Turks became a curse for the whole of the Middle East. Both Moslems and Christians suffered very heavily under these new comers! Arabs, Persians, Armenians, Maronites, Assyrians, Greeks and the Balkan peoples, all paid very dearly to these Turkish tribes !
It is mentioned that the Armenians massacred moslems in Zankezour. That said, you have to have in mind the Armenians massacred by your Azeri cousins in Shushi & Baku in early 1920s and then in Sumgait & Baku in late 1980s. this has nothing to do with the massacres of S. Hamid, 1894-96, then massacres of Adana 1920 and Genocide 1915-23!!! The total is almost two millions.
Do you know, that above one million Moslems were massacred in Baghdad, the capital of the Abbasid kings, by the Turk-Seljuk ruler Houlagou! How many other Arab and Persian Moslems have paid with their lives, to the Turks!
About Armenian great figures, let us mention only oneking: Tigrades the II, who established the only Armenian empire extending from the Caspian sea to Palestine, toward the end of the First BC entury. His 1st capital was Dikranagert (Diyarbekir) and the second: Antioch! When he sat on his imperial carriage, he used to have six kings running in front of him and other six royals running behind his carriage!
We had our Alphabet invented in AD 406. Started having literature by the beginning of the 5th cent. AD. The Turks have to get their alphabet within the next centuries. But no need for that, as long as they can borrow Arabic or Latin alphabets!
Nareg a very prominent prayer book was written by Krikor of Nareg in 1001 AD. And the monastery where he lived and wrote was situated to the south of lake Van. This book is only second the the Holly Bible! The monst. Is pulverized, along with hundreds of others, during the democratic reign of turkey in the 20th cent.
Pakratid kings built Ani, which was known as the city of 1001 churches!
Sayat Nova wrote in Armenian, Georgian and Turkish! His songs are sung by three peoples: Armenian, Georgian and Azeri. His songs are only 250 yrs. Old, but still very very popular!
Comitas had his choir in Constantinople. It numbered only 300 members. That choir was the pride of the Ottoman capital, just before the Genocide.
Then ever heard about Krikor Zohrab? The most prominent deputy of the Ot. Parliament, the exceptional lawyer and lecturer in the law school of Istanbul. Many of his students became political figures in the Middle East. In Lebanon, three prime minsters hailing only from the Solh family, were his former students.
Then have you ever heard about Aram Kahchadourian, the very prominent composer?
Anastas Mikoyan the great political figure in the Soviet Union. During the final phase of his career, he became the president of the Union!
Ardem Migoyan, his brother, has invented the MIG fighter planes (The pride of the Soviet Union).
Victor Hampartsoumian the world famous Astronomer, was a member of many scientific academies in different countries.
Alikhanian brothers the most prominent mathematicians!
Willaim Saroyan… ever heard about him? His father had migrated to the USA from Bitlis!
Yes, Armenia has not given the likes of your many leaders, sultans etc. But still, has contributed to the world civilization in a better way!
You, Turks, take pride in Ataturk, Mustafa Kemal Pasha. That’s your right. After all, he has founded the modern day Turkey. It is considered a true(actually the only one) example of democracy in the area. Sorry: It has the semblance of democracy. Within two decades you had four military coups. The army has always stood, with its thick oak club firmly clutched, behind your presidents and governments. A democratic country does never hatch an organization the like of Ergenekon!
Then what sort of a democracy is Turkey, that’s afraid of the Greek orthodox seminary?
In a true democracy minorities are never considered second or even fourth class citizens.
The best and most curios thing about Ataturk, is the bragging that he is such a great figure, the like of whom can be seen only once per 500 years. What a joke? Dear, there can be mentioned dozens of leaders who have assumed power within the last fifty-sixty years only. Can you read me?
Winston Churchill who lead G. Britain to final victory against the Nazi Germany.
Charles De Gaul the liberator of France!
Jamal abdel Nasser of Egypt, who granted pride not only to the Egyptians but to the whole of the Arab world!
Nelson Mandella from behind his prison cell bars, lead his nation against the much hated apartheid regime! And won!
Jomo Kenyata of Kenya: He lead the struggle of his people toward independence!
Ho Chi Min of Vietnam, lead his nation to victory against the very superior US army of 500 thousand, armed with the state of art planes, and other weapons. By the way, I am not a fan of his.
What about John F. Kennedy of the USA?
Pope John the II, was much more a prominent leader than many world famous political figures.
Ayatollah Khomeini ( I’m against any sort of theocracy) can never be denied as one of the greatest and most shrewd leaders in the area.
Martin Luther King: Who did away with racial segregation in the USA. He paid with his life, but his achievement was tremendpus.
Mao Tse Tung of China, do you think that he is inferior to Kemal pasha (Ataturk).
In order to close this very long comment, please let me mention one more name. A very minute (physically) man lead the sub continent of India to independence. Like Ataturk, he was fond of a whitedrink. Ghandi was addicted to his goat milk while Ataturk was addicted to Arak (Raki)! See?
He(Ghandi) had another “short coming” . He didn’t assume his leadership by burning a cosmopolitan city. Ataturk did such a “minor” thing. He had to incinerate Izmir (Smyrna) and drown its mainly Greek & Armenian inhabitant in the Med. sea. He did, really, a very nice job in that respect!
Dear friends,
Pls. take notice, that Ataturk’s greatness is in risk nowadays. Mrs. Erdogan is chiseling at his greatness and revolutionary innovations, with her silk headscarf!!!
I have to agree with you, that it’s time for a very long break!!! Goodnight every body!!!
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Hayrenakitsner' Suren , Armen yev Avet , at least after 35 years living in NY , I decided to relocate myself to Hayastan , eventhough still I have my biz in US.
I am afraid that it is very difficult for diaspora to understand the depth , values and effects of ARF 's calculated , careful and responsible efforts and acts to prevent dammages caused by April 22,2009 and Oct.2009 bi-latterals protocols/agreements signed by RA authorities with Turkey.
In this endavour Mr. Manoyan and ranks both in RA and US have done tremendous job , which we can notice in change of cycle "improvement" in RA authorites approach toward protocols. They recognize their lack of political vision and experience. The issue is not Mr. Manoyan or likes , but the depth of evaluation of current situation and honest and patriotic steps taken by ARF for the sake of entire Armenian nation. What ARF and ANCA with its grassroots have done and continue doing is our struggle to protect Armenia and Armenian interests against our arch enemy.
At least you can respect others opinion and become honest in your senses.
VERY WELL SAID, THANK YOU MR. SASSOUNIAN
GENOCIDE CAN NOT BE DENIED IN UNDER ANY "CIRCUMSTANCES"
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President Obama, V. President Biden and now Secretary Clinton flaters of Armenian Genocide Pledge, Secretary Clinton to make an excuse states "Circumstances have change in very significant ways" ?
DEAR SECRETARY,
GENOCIDE IS A UNFORGIVABLE CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. GENOCIDE CAN NOT BE AND SHOULD NOT BE DENIED UNDER ANY PRESSURE, POLICY OR ANY "CIRCUMSTANCES "
We think "Circumstances" never have been changed Only your political games are changed YOU RETREAT FROM YOUR OWN PLEDGE REGARDING ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ...SOLELY FOR POLITICAL REASONS........ AND..... THIS IS A SHAME... HOW SUCH HONORABLE PEOPLE LIKE YOU FALLING SHORT OF YOUR REPEATED CRYSTAL CLEAR PROMISES AND THEN EXPECTING FROM ARMENIANS AND MILLIONS OF COMPASSIONATE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO CAMPAIGN OR VOTE FOR YOUR ADMINISTRATION ON NEXT ELECTION ?
Jews, Armenians, Combodian, Bosnian, Rewanda, Darfur and other Genocides must be confronted unconditionally and equally at the level of AMERICAN VALUES and our common HUMANITY... As Americans, we should never allow the recognition of this unforgivable crime to be reduced to a political issue that can be traded away, retreated from under pressure or used to advance a political agenda of any kind"
As presidential Candidate, Senator Obama , Senator Biden and You (Senator Clinton) During presidential campaign pledged repeatedly to recognize Armenian Genocide. Candidate Obama once stated "America deserves a Leader who speaks truthfully about Armenian Genocide and responds forcefully to all genocides. I intend to be that President."? Mr Obama You are PRESIDENT NOW ?
WE LOOK TO PRESIDENT OBAMA TO BE A MAN OF HIS WORD AND HONOR HIS PLEDGE TO RECOGNIZE THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND EXHIBIT "UNSTINTING RESOLVE" TO STOP THE KILLING IN DARFUR.
Dr. Babajanian USA
Thanks for your persistence.
Such coverage is so rare that the questions themselves contain more information than the “answers” given us TV viewers. I’m an old man now, but I remember well the Viet Nam protests. One little war but so much noise. This media silence is far scarier.
I wonder how you will stand it, the frustration. I followed Ellsberg. And now Richard Gage and you, Sibel,, for example. What does it feel like to pull back the curtain, shine a light on the string-pullers, and see the dancers go on and on? I will continue to recommend Boiling Frogs, but at dinner, or the office, the talk will be about the latest Balloon Boy. I both applaud and pity your efforts.
Robert O’Hara
...or see that how the ARF has wasted time and money in Washington for decades...
Get a life, Harutik
Because of the AMOTAA , b/c girls know that if they have sex before the marriage the chances to marry to that guy goes down to zero (what will he think ??? that I am a whore, if I can’t manage my sexual emotions !!!), almost all couples keep the "platonic love” rule before the marriage. It leads to early , I would say very early marriages, aftermath is a high percentage of divorces in Armenia. Since later they realize that , except the sexual obsession, they had nothing in common.
And ARMEN , why to compare it with India? I would rather go with Muslim culture! just imagine you can have at least 4 wives and almost no obligations to be nice to your harem. You even can beat them up… sometimes …just to have fun !!! As a women I would say that I would prefer the Muslim one as well - of course comparing with the Indian one. At least as a good Muslim wife I would not be allowed to work AT ALL, as we do in Armenia to financially support our families and could spend my days in a SPA salon or a shopping !!!!
Thanks ERIK for your words.
ARMENIAN WOMEN DESERVE A FAMILY, NOT A KITCHEN SLAVERY!
Abraham, I searched for Hocali and found an apparently fictional author and book. I searched for the purported Armenian journalist (now reportedly living in Beirut) and found only references to a few pages of his purported book, nearly all on Azeri or Turkish sites (and once on a Chechnian Jihadi site). I searched for the book on Amazon.com and found nothing. So I am not sure what happened in Hocali.
Very nice, but did any of the presenters say anything new - something that we didn't already know?
Please watch out for Ambassador Evans, whom I respect for his saying the G word while he was ambassador to Armenia. But elsewhere, Evans has cited the part of the TARC/ICTJ report that attempts to take away Armenian rights to land and reparations.
And while I'm at it, have our 1/2 Armenian Congresswomen Anna Eshoo and Jackie Spier had anything to say about the possibility that the full US House will not vote on or pass the Genocide resolution, thanks to Obama and Hillary Clinton, or have they just uttered the usual "gee whiz"? Why don't they speak out loud and clear? Afraid they may put their jobs on the line? Recall thr courageous David Krikorian who did a great job in using the Sibel Edmonds case to go after the awful Cong. Jean Schmidt.
Why don't Eshoo and Spier bring the Sibel Edmonds case before the Congress? Because they're afraid of losing their jobs, that's why. They put their jobs above principle.
I am so sick of do-nothing Armenian American elected officials. I am waiting until Republican candidate for Senate Danny Tarkanian in Nevada gets elected and probably becomes yet another do-nothing Armenian American politician. At a fundraiser around Boston, he was asked about Karabagh, and he told his Armenian American audience that he did not know much about the issue. True story.
It's the least Markar deserves.
Comment The first time I saw Der Vartan was also the last time. I had gone to a special dinner meeting in Lowell to see a slide show by Joe Dadigian of his and Tom Vartabedian's recent trip to Armenia.
Der Vartan started the meeting with the usual blessing but what happened next was most unusual for me. He proceeded to lead us in singing of the Star Spangled Banner! I was standing in the front row and simply thrilled to be singing along with him. He made me feel proud and happy to have made the effort to be there. I knew him for an Hour but his enthusiasm will stay with me forever.
Those who talk about "HUMANITY" and preach morality in terms of genocide and holocaust.
How can you explain Ahmadinejad's (who denies Jewish Holocaust) receiving an honorary doctorate from THE STATE UNIVERSITY OF YEREVAN?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=28230§ionid=351020105
Where is your stance against the GENOCIDE DENIAL?
May I call the award a sign of " HYPOCRISY" ?
Hye, historical data is just another PLOY of the Turk to delay, demand, and to also act as if history has not recorded the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. Of course, the Turks' Genocide is not and cannot be recorded in the Turkish history books for their students to know the truths of their forbears!
Turks claim Muslims are unable to puruse any Genocides. Ask the Greeks, the
Assyrians and most of the nations of Europe... and Armenians who bore the
venom of the Turks - especially as Turks were facing all their losses during WWI and pursued the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians under the cover of WWI...
Turks excel at PLOYS, denials, and more - all delaying tactics - as the world watches and wonders: what's next?? And above all, lies, the Turks' leaderships lie to their own Turkish citizens - these leaders even lie to themselves - and even
believe their own lies and all their PLOYS!
Manooshag
It's interesting that a name of an Armenian who was killed by a 17 year old boy can get a street named after him. In addition, thousands mourned his death in Istanbul. Now, compare that to the number of street signs in Yerevan which were changed in honor of the murdered Turkish diplomats and their families, as well as all of those innocent civillians, who were assinated by cowardly members of Armenian terrorist groups! How many people came out to mourn for these people in Yerevan from the 1970's - the 1990's? In all fairness, until there are street sign changes and official mournings in Armenia for these victims of Armenian terrorism, then there should never even be a consideration for a street name change for Dink!! YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!!!
What a pleasure it was to be able to attend this memorial service last Sunday in honor of my brother-in-law, Fr. Vartan . He was a great man and will always remain in my hearts as well as the hearts of his entire families. It was wonderful to see so many people there on Sunday to remember him. I am sure he is looking over everyone just like he would have if he were with us today. We deeply miss him. Thank you to the North Andover community for a wonderful tribute to him.
Vahe,
If you are really under the illusion that the US has not recognized the Armenian genocide as a result of "April 22,2009 and Oct.2009" then I truly-truly feel sad for you. I hope you are capable of exercising better judgment in other aspects of your life...
PS: The ARF, ANC, AAA, etc., have done a "tremendous job" wasting our precious resources in Washington.
Turkey should change Anatolia to Armenia...Armenians have nothing to do with Turkish streets.........
Harut,
You keep living in a world of dreams and half-truths. To this day, no semblence of a debate has occured between members of the dashnak Armenian diaspora and Turks and/or Azeris. There have been several requests, but always with the same result of refusal by the dashnaks. You take pride in stating that there could have been 45 congressmen who might have voted in favor of the resolution. These 45 members, in reality, couldn't even point outTurkey on a map, let alone Azerbaijan, Georgia or Armenia! They are totally clueless as to the reality of the geopolitical importance of Turkey versus Armenia! Rep. Brad Sherman and many others can't seem to keep their noses clean after having it so far up Armenian diaspora's rear ends! They openly prostitute themselves for votes. We all know that there's quite a bit of bribe money exchanged under the table for them to vote your way. So, knowing this, how can you even give crediblity, let alone a sense of pride, to these corrupt and morally bankrupt politicians?!! There are many dashnaks who state that they've "won". What exactly do they believe that they've actually won? It's just a matter of time before Turks as a group expose you all for what you really are!!!
Ahmet,
WELL SAID MY BROTHER!!!
Grish,
Turkey has only two demands from Armenia. 1). Armenia MUST publically apologize in front of the UN, for the massive century old con job which they have, to this very day, perpetrated upon the Christian nations of the world, and openly admit to the genocides which they have willingly committed upon Moslems and non-Moslems alike, from the 1800's all the way up to the 1992 massacre at Kohajaly. 2). All Armenian troops are to be withdrawn from NK so that the rightful Azeri owners can return to their homes. That's it. We don't want one penny from Armenia, nor do we want any of your land. We just want you all to tell the truth and open your archives for public examination.
No society is perfect. What we currently have regarding sexuality in this world are extremes. On one hand we have women being treated like sluts/sex objects in the West. On the other hand we have women treated like possessions/domestic slaves in the East. On one hand we have teen pregnancies, child molestations, promotion of homosexuality, wholesale abortions, rampant sexual diseases, rapes, single parenthood, divorce rates in the 70-80 percent in the West. On the other hand we have severe domestic violence against women, subjugation of women and women suffering from psychological abuse in the East.
The way women are treated - on this planet - is horrible. The only problem I have with individuals like Lara are the unknown consequences that their blind urges to tear down one bad social system to replace it with another bad system will lead to in small vulnerable societies.
In final analysis: The West needs less sex, the East needs more sex.
Robert,
Why don't you keep your ignorant comments to yourself because frankly we dont' give rat's rear end what you think... You and your entire government full of brainwashed liars and manipulators and yes murderors continue to threaten and use military force or ecomonic threat because you have nothing else to bargain with.. Your intellects have no brain cells to debate and come to a conclusion that history does not lie... All you can do is use force and threats.. WOW.. surprise, surprise.. so your words mean nothing...
and Ahmet.. instead of coming up with awards why don't you come up with a plan on how you will look when your government and 90% of your brainwashed population will look when the entire world finally says enough is enough of Turkey and its crying and whining complaints and puts you all in your place..so why don't you and YOUR BROTHER Robert walk out of this site holding hands..oh but then again, you might be hanged because you touched another human being.. we know how Islam plays a big role in your day to day activities.....so sad.. so unfortunate.. that one race is so ignorant and does EVERYTHING to cover up the truth..
God Bless
This is not about Armenian only, It is about all Christians Persecuted world wide especially in Middle East and Far East. Please join the Coptic Groups who is fighting that HR 252 becomes Law. We Stand Strong in the USA (God Bless) for our Christian Brethren world wide.
Dear Armenian readers, I just want to bring to your attention that as Coptic Christian, I too fight for you to gain success in Congress. We should bind together. Your fight is also our fight.
It is your demand and your opinion sorry body this is not world opinion........
world opinion is very simple "TURKS COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST THEIR CHRISTIAN SUBJECTS" the rest are all politics and words... and you know that..please don't afraid to use your real Turkish name and make sure all streets in Turkey have a beautiful Turkish names because we Armenians don't care about Turkish streets we care about ANATOLIA our ancestral occupied land by invaders from Central Asia... we used to live in peace with our civilized Christian neighbor BYZANTINE ..and one more thing please don't reply ...sound like your prime minister talking from Saudi Arabia...
Comment
"Developing bridges" you say.... That's Only to Send $$$.. Period(.)
Homeland Armenian Government is "CORRUPT" what do you expect!!
Comment
From a navy chief. OOOORAH NAVY!!!
I am proud to be an Armenian American serving this great country.
Hey Avetis, go climb under some hole and do us a favor.
Good job boys (sirs).
Comment
Mr. Ahmet (Ahmad) First, for people like you to talk about Jewish Holocaust is real Hypocrisy ( even a joke ) Now you are acting more "Catholic than Pope" and I assure you nobody will believe you, when you talking about Holocaust ?)........ Second, Mr. Ahmet How you know? or from where you found out? that I am denying Holocaust or supporting Yerevan State University? Sir, with the name of Democracy unfortunately Armenian's media gave you a chance to write your opinion even though we are not sure you are an "infiltrator Agent" or not ? But anyhow you can not and should not insult Armenian People with your Nonsenses ...Already you people did adequete.... .... Please do not respond, we had enough....
To Gayene,
You refrained from answering all my questions. Instead, you began to be unnecessarily aggressive and asked for me to leave out of this site. Moreover, your insult to Islam ensued. Do you know what all these indicate? You have an insecure personality and a fear of your ideas being refuted!
I believe there are modern Armenians out there whom I can exchange my ideas without being asked to leave.
P.S: Just in case. Have you looked at the 13rd slide that I sent to you? And your comments? How about a genocide denier's award by Yerevan?
You really need God's blessings!!!
Why do you all even bother with these Turkish proxies or stooges? They can boil in their own stew till jahenem freezes over for them. If they need an education, like they got in 1993, then I'm sure they will ask for it or they can go to any US library, the Library of Congress, the US archives and etc....
Who on this website thinks that their grandparents and their great-grandparents were liers? These scum may try to lie and dig a whole to the Americans but certainly not here.
On another note, every time someone mentions how gay Attaturk was, you will quickly see them say that you are insulting them and they will have you banned on the ADL controlled news blogs. If you point a historical fact about their ancestory as being decendants of Ghengis Khan, you will see them call you racisit.
So get used to it and ignore them. If they want to debate history, tell them to go to the library and get educated first. You can't debate historical facts with uneducated people. 98% of historians (experts) call the deaths of Armenians as genocide. You have to be delusional not to believe that. There is a reason why they call Turks the sick men of Europe. Although they should be called the sick men of Asia.
On a different note, Turks should keep that terrorist name Ergenekon on the street. It shows the world how Turks view themselves. Make no mistake about it, Ergenekon is a terrorist cell that was one of the reasons why 7 CIA officers got killed in Afghanistan. Moreover, these web site blogs are monitored by the FBI and the spooks to see who is an Armenian nationalist and then share that information with the very same group that took part in the killing of the CIA officers, Ergenekon.
This group has hired the Taliban to fight Armenians in 1993. It also has links with Al Qaueda. I don't think Tom Clancy could even have made this stuff up.
Comment
Bravo...Papken Dadoyan! Very well said sir!
Sir Ahmet,
First of all: the name is Gayane.... Please start by addressing people with their correct spelling of their name.. that is just respect to the person you are speaking or writing to......
Second of all: Your ideas sir is out of context.. you find isolated incidents to prove your point but let me tell you.. Your ideas and your questions and your so called evidence can't stand in court of JUSTICE and TRUTH.. do you hear me? By pointing out few things you know about what ARmenians have done, it does not mean you have the right to come in here and insult us by your insignificant stories...and truly showing how far you are willing to go to cover up the what has happened... I AM SORRy that i am a bit angry or frustrated; however i am sick and tired of your govt and your Muslim world's lies and cover ups.. WHY DON"T YOU ONCE AND FOR ALL come out and admit it happened.. Instead, what you do???? Exactly this.. throw a fact from here and there like a bone to a dog.. THATs AHMET is not going to go without strong opposition.. from your MODERN OR NON MODERN Armenians such as myself..what a joke you are.....
Instead of preaching to us and I think we know our history and know what happened, please take a moment and truly soul search and understand what your govt did to my people.. IF you have a soul...and maybe you can then realize that lying to yourselves is not the best course of action.....
God is on our side SIR.. not yours....
Gayane
Dear Jen,
I want to thank you for your post and support.
It is definintely united we will win over EVIL..and we all know where all the evil and devil's work come from.....
God Bless..
Gayane
Ahmet,
I do apologize but I neglected to reply to few of your statements in my first post..
First: Insecure personality comment.. Sir.. If I had an insecure personality, i would not rebute everything you tried to accomplish .. SIR... if I had an insecure personality, I would not take a stand to what I believed in and what I know.. If I had an insecure personality, I would not stand here and tell you that you sir are ignorant... It is amazing to me that someone like you would call me insecure.. someone who came from a race that has "INSECURE" written all over their faces.. SIR, if you and your govt were NOT INSECURE, you would not spend sky rocketing amount of financial resources to stop everything and anything that deal with the Armenian Genocide.. have you thought about that? No of course not, your insecurity blinded you to the core and all you can do and say is to insult the race that your govt TRIED to wipe out again and again.. Insecurity breeds lies and lies breeds brainwashed citizens.. brainwashed citizens breed ignorant beliefs...need i say more?
In regards to your slides... i am glad that you know how to use the search engines.. . however, your comment about the Armenian people in Armenia not caring about the Genocide and only Diaspora is being greedy and selfish tells me how much you know about govt and it effect on the population.. You have been lucky that our own govt was blinded by your govt and all they have done so far is pretty much rub elbows with Turkey thinking by doing so Turkey will be buddy buddy with Armenia but our govt neglected its own people and their well being in the midst of all this artificial actions.. . however, SIR AHMET.. rest assure that when you get into the same situation as the ARmenian people where all you want to do is feed your family (when there is no money to buy food with) and put a home over your head, the last thing on your mind will be fighting for the cause.. they still do but they have no energy left in them...HENCE WHY WE, the DIASPORA took over and will handle that matter along with our people in Armenia...we will take that matter and fight till the end..... DON"T YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT.. I hope this cleared your concern about the high unemployment rate in Armenia..
Now I am done wasting my breath on you and I am sure everyone else here has had enough of you..
Thank you and have a nice evening...
To: Kiazer Souze
Thank you for giving me all these wonderful information, especially about Ergenkon..it seems to me they are another ultra terrorist group coming to life beside Al- Quada..I wonder how much damage has been done to US national security!!yes I remember during NKR war, they were many dead Taliban fighters among Azeri soldiers..
a
For the turks...how obnoxious of you, defenders of a state crime, demand from the victim-state (stateless as we are) a debate when the whole world recognizes reality? Who recognizes the Holocaust and who denies it? Who recognizes "northern cypriot" government and who doesn't?
Go debate with experts from whatever diasporan countries you live in, or if you live in Turkey, ask your government why ethnic cleansing has been a state motto since ataturks revolution...after all, all those ethnic laws you have are no secret. Your government claims the PKK still exists to justify its continued oppression of Kurdish civil rights, it uses the diaspora to justify its denial of world recognized facts, it uses cold war propaganda to continue to oppress Cypriots...you export terrorism around the world, especially Europe and the world is sick of you. All your neighbors hate you, not because of your obnoxious attitude towards your neighbors (greeks, bulgarians, armenians, cypriots, ect) but because of how you treat your own citizens (greeks, turkish left, those that disagree with atajew, ect).
Though the Tashnags are the most focused on this distraction (US recognition of genocide through government), it is NOT a partisan issue. ALL Armenians are survivors and all of our previous generations could / can name relatives who perished. Think about that before you continue to spew your verbal puke on their memory.
Comment TO MR. APELIANI SEE THAT YOU VERY KEEN ON TWISTED HISTORY, I SEE THAT YOU ARE RELAYING ON SOME SO CALLED TURKISH WRITERS (WHICH THEY ARE COLLABORATORS OF OUR ENEMIES) THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ALI KEMAL, DAMAT FERIT PASHA OR CERKES ETHEM, EVERY COUNTRY HAS THEIR BACK STABBERS, HAPPENS TO BE WE HAVE MORE THAN OTHER COUNTRIES, YOU MUST BE OVER THE MOON BECAUSE TURKISH PM IS YOUR MAN ( EITHER GREEK ORIGIN OR ARMENIAN) ALSO PRO-ISLAMIST CULT WORKS ON YOUR FAVOUR NOW DAYS, TELL YOUR GREEK FRIENDS ERDOGAN ABOUT TO GIVE CYPRUS BACK TO THEM IN SILVER PLATE IF HE CAN MANAGE. MR APELIAN, YOU KNOW PERFECTLY THAT OTTOMAN ARMENIANS WAS A OTTOMAN CITIZENS I AM NOT GOING WRITE YOU THAT, THEY WERE MP'S, POLITICIANS, OFFICERS, BUSINESS PEOPLE UNTIL THE DAY EASTERN AND S/EASTERN ARMENIANS COLLABORATED WITH OUR ENEMIES AT THE TIME RUSSIANS, FRENCH, GREEKS AND ENGLISH. ARMENIANS, STABBED THEY ARE OWN PEOPLE BEHIND. I THINK YOU KNOW THAT. DON'T YOU EVER FEEL BAD ABOUT THAT, I SPOUSE YOU ARE NOT...I THINK ALL YOU UP SET ABOUT IS YOU COULDN'T GRAB THE EAST OF OTTOMAN LAND AS A ARMENIA... HERE ARE SOME HISTORICAL FACTS BY NORMAN STONE YOU CHECK FROM INTERNET..
1878: British Ambassador Henry Layard says Russia is teaming up with Ottoman Armenians
"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
Prof. Norman Stone: "Armenian story has another side"
Commentary appeared in Chicago Tribune
***
Armenian story has another side
By Norman Stone, a historian and the author of "World War I: A Short History"
October 16, 2007
All the world knows what the end of an empire looks like: hundreds of thousands of people fleeing down dusty paths, taking what was left of their possessions; crammed refugee trains puffing their way across arid plains; and many, many people dying. For the Ottoman Empire that process began in the Balkans, the Crimea and the Caucasus as Russia and her satellites expanded. Seven million people -- we would now call them Turks -- had to settle in Anatolia, the territory of modern Turkey.
In 1914, when World War I began in earnest, Armenians living in what is now Turkey attempted to set up a national state. Armenians revolted against the Ottoman government, began what we would now call "ethnic cleansing" of the local Turks. Their effort failed and caused the government to deport most Armenians from the area of the revolt for security reasons. Their sufferings en route are well-known.
Today, Armenian interests in America and abroad are well-organized. What keeps them united is the collective memory of their historic grievance. What happened was not in any way their fault, they believe. If the drive to carve out an ethnically pure Armenian state was a failure, they reason, it was only because the Turks exterminated them.
For years, Armenians have urged the U.S. Congress to recognize their fate as genocide. Many U.S. leaders -- including former secretaries of state and defense and current high-ranking Bush administration officials -- have urged Congress either not to consider or to vote down the current genocide resolution primarily for strategic purposes: Turkey is a critical ally to the U.S. in both Iraq and Afghanistan and adoption of such a resolution would anger and offend the Turkish population and jeopardize U.S.-Turkish relations.
Given this strong opposition, why would Congress, upon the advice of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, make itself arbiter of this controversy? What makes the Armenians' dreadful fate so much worse than the dreadful fates that come with every end of empire? It is here that historians must come in.
First, allegedly critical evidence of the crime consists of forgeries. The British were in occupation of Istanbul for four years after the war and examined all of the files of the Ottoman government. They found nothing, and therefore could not try the 100-odd supposed Turkish war criminals that they were holding. Then, documents turned up, allegedly telegrams from the interior ministry to the effect that all Armenians should be wiped out. The signatures turned out to be wrong, there were no back-up copies in the archives and the dating system was misunderstood.
There are many other arguments against a supposed genocide of the Armenians. Their leader was offered a post in the Turkish Cabinet in 1914, and turned it down. When the deportations were under way, the populations of the big cities were exempted -- Istanbul, Izmir, Aleppo, where there were huge concentrations of Armenians. There were indeed well-documented and horrible massacres of the deportee columns, and the Turks themselves tried more than 1,300 men for these crimes in 1916, convicted many and executed several. None of this squares with genocide, as we classically understand it. Finally, it is just not true that historians as a whole support the genocide thesis. The people who know the background and the language (Ottoman Turkish is terribly difficult) are divided, and those who do not accept the genocide thesis are weightier. The Armenian lobby contends that these independent and highly esteemed historians are simply "Ottomanists" -- a ridiculously arrogant dismissal.
Unfortunately, the issue has never reached a properly constituted court. If the Armenians were convinced of their own case, they would have taken it to one. Instead, they lobby bewildered or bored parliamentary assemblies to "recognize the genocide."
Congress should not take a position, one way or the other, on this affair. Let historians decide. The Turkish government has been saying this for years. It is the Armenians who refuse to take part in a joint historical review, even when organized by impeccably neutral academics. This review is the logical and most sensible path forward. Passage of the resolution by the full House of Representatives would constitute an act of legislative vengeance and would shame well-meaning scholars who want to explore this history from any vantage point other than the one foisted upon the world by ultranationalist Armenians.
Thanks to Ambassador John Evans.
We should not forget ...
He lost his job because of us.
This is a small contribution to his dedication.
You should remember that P. Barrak and Lady Hilary have both doctorate in Law!
Ambassador John Evans*
America is the symbol of freedom,
Country signs human rights,
Country is open to every race,
Country prides in its fairness, shines!
Nobody can change “Evans,”
From Greek name cries yet says,
Equalization is centurial real mean;
Hence, no superiority takes thy scene.
His name proved his weighed crane;
He acts evenly, relieves scorns, ethnic pain.
Nobody can ever engulf to turn him insane.
Even the scimitar dangled beside recent Turk men.
In the sixteenth century,
Sir Henry Wotton announced,
“Ambassador is an honest man, sent
to lie abroad for the good of the motherland.”
EVANS is “ambassador and humane.”
He could not shelter known slain
By clouding his dignified fan
To vanish genocide, still bleeding rain.
He believes in eternity,
In paints, signs, truth, and equality:
“Humanity could never replace
his ambassadorial vanity.”
He has been fired from hurricane sites
To our sincere, welcome trustful hearts,
To be remembered by honest ancestries of Gomidas**,
Spelling his name by Mashtotsian*** alphabet, on shrines.
Sylva Portoian, MD
June 6, 2006
From book:"A Poetic Soul Shined of Genocides"
_________________________
*
John Marshall Evans: American ambassador to Armenia (2004-2006), dismissed from the diplomatic circle because he used the word genocide and not massacre.
In my opinion as a medical trained human, I cannot see any difference as far as lives are concerned. I think the geneticist will say the same, however, the justice court system should stamp their names.
I repeat to say, “Killing a person is to kill genes.
Hundreds, thousands, millions or more
Does it make incongruity?
Aren’t all beating tissues, souls?
That can breathe create—
Help humanity to lore, galore!”
** Gomidas/Komitas
(1869-1935): Founder of Armenian classic music.
***
Saint Mesrop Mashtots: Inventor of the Armenian alphabet
(AD 405).
Mr.Harout,
Please tell me is there any government without corruption!
Denying Genocide, is the cruelest corruption of all---
'Souls Corruption'!
Worst of all
Wealth could be replaced,
Can anyone replace crushed souls!
maybe you should learn to speak English and study some documented history before you leave ignorant threats.
If you look at these comment, you can immediately sense that it is filled with crappy people full of hatred, blind enough to destroy Armenia's future. Open you eyes people, Armenia's future is through Turkey!
We have nothing against you, I personally felt very sorry for Hrant Dink. We still circulate his speeches through facebook.
Gayena,
Do you have to contradict with yourself all the time?
In one reply you say the diaspora is helping out the armenians in armenia and accuse me of not knowing this truth. In the other, you say armenians in armenia are only concerned about bringing food to their tables. This is my point: the DIASPORA DONT GIVE A FLIP TO ARMENIANS AND ACT SELFISHLY. IF THEY DID, ARMENIA WOULD NOT BE 130TH IN WORLD ECONOMY RANKING.
You cover up this by accusing the armenian government. WHY? Did the government persecute those diaspora members who tried to help armenians in armenia? NO! They starve because of the selfish and greedy policies of the diaspora.
You talk about the truth. But why do you object the formation of a commission of historians to examine the issue? What is it that you are so afraid about this commission? Are you afraid that all the claims that you made one-sided without taking the Turkish side into account, rebuked and proven a lie?
I WILL ACCEPT WHATEVER COMES OUT OF THIS COMMISSION. Deal?
The diaspora is PANICKED because of the protocols. because THEY ARE LOSING THEIR GRIPS ON THE ISSUE TO THE ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT. YEREVAN IS TAKING THE INITIATIVE. AND THIS YOU DONT LIKE.
GOD IS ON YEREVAN'S SIDE. BY R APPROACHING WITH TURKEY, THEY WILL SURVIVE.
"
Corruption is human nature.
Considering the corrupt nature of humans, concerning the socioeconomic and geopolitical situation of a tiny, landlocked, impoverished nation in the Caucasus surrounded by enemies - Armenia, even with all its problems, is still ahead of most nations on earth. It took the political and financial elite of the Western world about one thousand years of international wars, land annexations, exploitation of resources worldwide, exploitation of the masses worldwide, genocides and slavery before they were finally able to begin rising the living standards of their population at the turn of the last century.
I think as responsible Armenians we can allow our homeland to continue progressing a few more years, without freaking out about why Armenia has not become a Switzerland... Armenia needs political evolution, not a CIA inspired revolution.
PS: The oligarchs in America make our little Dodi Gagos and Nemets Rubos look like boy scouts. America is by far the most corrupt, most bloodthirsty empire in recent history. But children like Harutik first need to grow up before they realize this...
Moreover, I'm saddened that a prominent ARF politician like Giro Manoyan would make such a comment. Yes, indeed - "watching US politicians blow hot air up Armenian asses once a year is the most “stupidifying” thing anyone anywhere can do…"
We desperately need to stop wasting our people's limited/precious resources in a corrupt and bloodthirsty place like Washington and start building better bridges with our fledgling homeland. Anyone foolish enough to be under the illusion that the US has not recognized the Armenian Genocide as a result of the political process going on between Ankara and Yerevan seriously needs to get their brains examined. I never realized just how irrational, naive and ignorant we Armenians can be in politics.
One thing comes to mind if we are to believe that religous doctrine is at core of views on sexuality:
How is it that infidelity, having a mistress, is ok, but fornication, sex before marriage, is not?
Kaya: I did read this article in the Chicago Tribune and I have to tell you I was horrified because it looked like classic genocide denial to me. However, I was also surprised no Armenians wrote an article in rebuttal to the Tribune. The fact that the Turks pay so much to push their old and worn propaganda on the world shows that the Armenians have a right to rebut, in fact A DUTY, to answer the propaganda with the truth. The whole issue is one of free speech, free speech to talk about the Armenian genocide in Turkey before Turkey can enter the EU.
Now that the original perpetrators are dead, Turkey should be able to face its past. The new generation should be able to deal with and talk about the past and toss the old and worn propaganda out.
Here Kaya, you have given the whole Armenian world and more readers a chance to read what I saw in the Tribune. It will not be overlooked or ignored. I hope they will rebut you; but isn't that what they did on 60 minutes. Some of my relatives too could be among the bones. These are bones of human beings with souls and intelligence, not the bones of dogs, sheep or cows. Human rights has a long way to go in parts of the world which still do not view women and children as having human rights. Turkey is still ranked among the lowest countries in giving human rights to women and children. Ataturk's revolution has done little to bring human rights to Turkey, in fact, Erdogan looks reactionary. Until women get educated and work, are not the victims of honor killings, are not abused by their husbands, are considered equals, until the whole muslim world revolutionizes, women and children will not be looked upon as humans, but just as slaves and possessions, equal to a camel, but not a man.
Comment: I had been involved in an automobile accident Monday afternoon. When my daughter saw the condition of my car at the auto body shop (totaled) and then saw the extent of my injuries (bumps, bruises with no broken bones), she commented that Der Vartan was not ready to see me yet!! I believe that he was watching over me this past Monday as he has been watching over all of his flock this past year. He will always remain in our hearts and memories.
This is a poet is written by a friend of mine.. wanted to share it....
Deny Me of Her Sleep
I have overcome your resistance,
I am at peace over your negate,
Lies of political retribution
Poison of a snake’s contribution.
Do you stand in your mornings?
In front of a mirror that reflects,
What your duty spells in front
Of reflections of billions….
Hold the moment before
You walk through your door,
An Opportunity, Illegal Tender.
Genocide your business rendered,
When I try to sleep at night,
Does your family sleep in rest,
When our aging gradparents,
Try to forget the smell of slaughter.
Murat,
You are speaking about Armenians fighting on the side of Russians in WWI, and I tell you the able male who miraculously escaped from Talaat's systematic order to annihilate every Armenian human being who lived in Turkey in 1915 also fought on the Turkish front in WWI. Thus Armenians in Turkey fought against Armenians in Russia. Whoever was the citizen of a given country fought for the country that they lived in. My own grandfather at the time fought for Turkey as he lived in Western Armenia, today's eastern Turkey. He was a high ranking officer in the Turkish army and he was sent to the front. Your assumptions that it was Armenians who fought for Russia is absurd. If Armenians happened to be of Russian citizen then they had to fight for Russia, and the same applied to Turkey. However Talaat's and Enver's order came in 1915 to annihilate all Armenians who lived in Turkey, and they have achieved what they were after. Thus they killed more than 1.5 Million Armenians who lived in Turkey right after they gathered and killed 300 Armenian intellectuals on April 24, 1915. There are numerous books on this subject, why don't you educate yourself and know the truth but you won't find it in Turkey as it is against Turkishness to speak or gain any knowledge about the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, your life will be in danger - you have to seek it from the outside world who are not so biased as the Turkish government. The A.R.F. were simply trying but couldn't achieve much to defend the populace. They only tried to defend themselves and the people, which they did only in Van and thank God the Russian army finally came and they rescued the Armenian people in Van. The Armenian Revolutionary Federation didn't even know that the CUP were plotting against the Armenian people in Turkey, if they did, they wouldn't have associated with the CUP in and around 1908. But after the Adana massacres the A.R.F. distanced themselves from the CUP. Talaat himself said months after of April, 1915, that "by now Armenians are extremely angry, so we have to finish the job of annihilating every Armenian". He later said, "Armenians will not be able to raise their heads for 50 years after this". Meaning the killings and the blow of the Armenian Genocide that he systematically and successfully plotted and carried it out was so enormous and horrendous for the Armenians that they won't be able to complain nor ask for reparations when there is very little left of them (are extinct) and mostly they're either orphaned children or people in very poor and destitute condition, now scattered all around the world.
I would like to say this before I ignor you ...the reason you want Diaspora to go away is because you know that DIASPORA does not answer you, you can't control us, you can't make us do anything that you want us to do... But know this Aghmagh, Diaspora was, is and will be here fighting your brainwashed brain cells till the end.. Diaspora going away? NOT IN YOUR BLOODY DREAMS...
Oh.. one last thing.. when you said i was unnecessarily aggressive in my last post.. .the difference is SIR at least I (Armenian) am aggressive with words and not with swords (Turk).. and it was your govt who used UNNECESSARY AGGRESSION for NO REASON except for ethnic cleansing to murder all of my ancestors..did you ever think about that? but of course not.. and you have the nerve to tell me that I was being aggressive.. unbelievable...
Good bye and good riddance...
G
Just a reminder that Turkey, Russia and Iran are the worst countries for human rights abuses. That until the day Turkey, Russia and Iran improve the status of all people, including women, they will not be well received by the western world where such rights have been hard fought for and have existed for some time.
Just read any report on these countries written by a human watch organization.
Comment..Wake up man ,,it is 2010 not the years before 1170AD.
And let me know,is there a turkish newspaper in Armenia and how many Turks live today in Armenia or in your capital Yerevan ??
How about comparing ??
Wake up !Stop liking Blood ..We are all Humans,NEVER FORGET...BUT FORGIVE..You`ll enjoy this only life,no other chance.Take care
Dear Giro, I hope that the "speaking against Turkishness,the 301 Rule" didn't penetrate beyond the Turkish border and went to Armenia as well. These days I don't know what's cooking in the head's of our government in the Motherland. "Asdvads parin ene yev azade mer azke chariknere".
Comment
To: Gayane and other my dear compatriots (including Armenian Weekly)
Please ,Please Don't (do not) waste your precious time to respond to this (hired) Agent's Junks.
Thank you
Concerned Armenian:
With all due respect to yourself; but despite the industrial riches that America once had and was, it is because of the years of mega corruption, crooks and bandits that today America has sunk so low economically and is fighting like heck to remain a superpower in the world. Let's not forget that Armenia today is a newly formed, a tiny, little landlocked country. Armenia is not America to withstand even the smallest corruption within her people nor her government. The only way Armenia will withstand and grow is by doing away with corruption, to have the majority of a population consisting of hard working, educated and patriotic citizens. And to have a very supportive and a watchful Diaspora behind her.
Obviously you have selective vision to go along with your selective history lessons...Yerevan doesn't care about the genocide, doesn't care about US recognition, or the US at all other than the dollars it gets for being political with them.
The Diaspora doesn't want western Armenia, death as revenge, or anything stupid like that...we only want to heal the wounds on HONEST TERMS. We REFUSE to let Yerevan fall prey to trusting Turks. The Kurds, Greeks, Cypriots, Armenians, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Bulgarians and everyone else knows what will happen...we need to look no further than history or current events.
Despite all the face saving in politics, all of Turkeys neighbors still hates you. Think about that. Your military dictatorship can brainwash you with a distorted view of history if you want but the next time Turkish guns are aimed at a government, all of your neighbors will be tempted for revenge. You best stick to killing Kurdish boys/girls and calling them "pkk".
I'm glad Sweeden finally mustered enough courage to call a spade a spade. Its about bloody time!
Ahmet and Robert,
If you guys are the tough brothers that you are, tell me if you can do the following:
Can you put aside all your feelings and everything you were thought about the Armenians, put aside the conversation on this site (and Gayane), go someplace where noone including your people can influence you and do an honest research about historical facts and eyewitness/survivor accounts. Can you put everything aside and do an objective research using only documented archives? Read the Blue Book which is a compilation of eyewitness accounts. I can only imagine how hurtful and incomprehensible it is for someone to face a shocking truth about his ancestors. But for Turkey to become a truly modern powerful Democracy with enforced human rights, you guys need to face your past, like facing a phobia. You guys need to look atit, acknowledge it, correct it and move on and let us move on.Can you also put yourselves in the place of an Armenian, and see how you might have reacted if your grandparents tell you about witnessing babies being thrown into rivers, women being raped in front of their children, being told to get out of your house while muslims were being told to get in and take everything you had, being told that you needed to walk on foot to a desert and were not allowed to buy food even when you could afford it, being told you could be saved if you married a muslim and converted to Islam, being forced to abandon your children who had starved to death under a tree and go on ...These survivors are our grandparents who suffered from post traumatic syndrome and kept on crying about all this till the end. Would you have been able to ignore your grandparents pain?. Prove to yourselves that you can take an honest look to what had happened to us.
A Murat on another site called the Armenian Genocide a myth. Trust me I wish it was a myth and my heart did not bleed with the heavy burden of my grandparents experience.
Sweden just acknowledged the 0genocide. The day Turkey itself recognizes will be the begiinig of a true power in the Middle East, because the only way from than on will be up. The Armenian people are ready to move on when you do the right thing.
No one did anything early to STOP it, i dont care what they did after armenians were being killed off, and Russia only helped because they wanted to gain something and that was to make Armenia a communist country just like them. So people do things for their own gain not because they like your pretty eyes.
"Rahm Emanuel is son of the devil's spawn, Rep. Eric Massa (D-NY) said. "He is an individual who would sell his mother to get a vote. He would strap his children to the front end of a steam locomotive."
Rep. Massa describes a confrontation with Emanuel in a shower: "I am showering, naked as a jaybird, and here comes Rahm Emanuel, not even with a towel wrapped around his tush, poking his finger in my chest, yelling at me."
This is just not Armenia or armenian culture people from other cultures, especially the middle east think the same way.
This is very good news. It was a genocide of Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks. Let's all work together and keep the momentum.
On the lighter side: When I first visited Israel in 1961, someone asked a bedouin how many camels I was worth. He said four. I don't know if that is a good number or not. What is hard for us to comprehend is that the bedouins think of their women as equal to camels, not as equals to men. The difference in our cultures is big. Equality for women and minorities is a foreign concept. Human rights has a long way to go in most of the world.
Comment TO ANONYMOUS
CBS DID VERY GOOD WORK FOR THE ARMENIANS IN THAT SHOW WITH NOT GIVING EQUAL AIR TIME TO BOTH SIDES, NO NEED TO DENY. IF ANY ONE OF THE HISTORIANS DOES NOT AGREED WITH ARMENIAN MATTER, THAN, THEY MUST BE PAID BY TURKEY, HOW RIDICULES IS THAT...YES, THERE IS ONE GENOCIDE IN RECENT HISTORY AND THAT IS MADE BY NAZI GERMANY AGAINST JEWISH PEOPLE.
DO YOU REALY THINK THAT PEOPLE OF TURKEY WORRIES ABOUT JOINING TO EU, A PART FROM POLITICIANS NOBODY CARES...IT IS ALL READY BEEN PROVEN EU IS A CHRISTIAN CLUB, WE SHOULD NOT BE IN, WE SHOULD BE TOTALY INDEPENDENT... ONLY PEOPLE DIDN'T STABBED US BEHIND IS GEORGIANS AND JEWISH PEOPLE. WHILE OTTOMANS AT FRONT LINES AT WAR WITH RUSSAINS, FRENCH, BRITISH, GREEKS; OTTOMAN ARMENIANS JOING TO RUSSAINS AND FRENCH THANKS TO YOUR BELOWED TASHNAKS, TUNSGUITS AND ORTHODOX CHURCH, THEY ARE THE CAUSE OF DEATH OF ARMENIANS AND TURKS, YOU ALL KNOW IT BUT NEVER ADMITING IT..
PLEASE DO NOT ANGRY WITH VIEWS ON THIS MATTER...PEACE BE WITH YOU..
It is just funny. A parliament finds a right to condemn a part of history as genocide. What if it was not accepted? Does it mean there was no genocide? The result was 132 to 131. So, the Turks may not commit genocide. Actually they did not. Anyway, as I sad, funny, just funny.
Well said Katia jan.. Apres...
Thank you...
Gayane
Apres Andranik..
Yes arten piti gzvei es yerkus anter shuneri dzera...
Well said..
Ishkan jan.. du shat chisht es... that is why after saying my peace.. el chem grelu et aylandaki posterin.. sents ban el klini.. the nerves of this fool...
bayts petqa asei.. :) sirts hangstanar...:)
G
Kiazer,
It's really hilarious that you can even dare to mention the term "terrorist"!! You dashnak Armenians have cornered that market quite well! No need to educate you or any of your other ill informed brethren about that particular point.
As for NK, Armenia has little to no respect for what the world says about them, but they'll embrace what some corrupt politicians ram through their respective parliaments as Armenians crow about how this country or that country supports the recognition of the alleged "genocide", never mentioning to the world that that particular country's population doesn't have a clue, or could care less, about what their parliament may have passed! That being said, Armenia has flagrantly and continuously violated UN Security Council Resolution #'s 822, 853, 874, 884 passed in 1993 regarding NK!! Sorry, but you simply can't have your cake and eat it too!
I really enjoyed the last part of this wonderful news where it said that "The government’s line was to not classify the massacre of, among others, Assyrians and Armenians as genocide as it should not be up to politicians to write history."
In my opinion the US congress should also adopt this Quote well that is if they're civilized
Dear Aghmud,
(aka Ahmet, but staying Aghmud until he learns how to spell Gayane),
Now that I have captured you attention and sharpened your perception, please read further.
My dear son, you cannot imagine the smile that your writings put on my face. We know a lot about what Turks say and do these days in a state of desperation, and you are really very naive if you think you are telling us anything different.
Which school did you go to? What family raised you? Didn't they tell you that when you visit someone (at home, website or discussion forum) it is your honour and name that is at stake if you shout (write in capital letters), do not listen and follow the debate and come up with disruptive comments? Didn't they tell you that it is your right to have your own views but it is your ultimate responsibility how you share them? Didn't they tell you that if you do not know something you go away, study and then think if you have anything new to say?
You cannot impress anybody by chanting about a historical commission. That is the same as someone losing a race sugests new races over and over again with the thought that a miracle can happen (or all other runners will end up with their legs broken). Who in his senses would take that seriously?
You cannot impress anybody by chanting about how different Amenians in Armenia and Armenians in teh Diaspora are. Why is that your concern? The Diaspora is the result of the Genocide and its current strength is earned by hard work and strong moral stance for more than a century. Armenians in Armenia have survived Communism and the USSR and stayed Armenian at the cost of an enormous sacrifice. We are one nation, although sometimes politicians pretend to forget about that and need unpleasant reminders. How many Turks are illiterate and yet you dare to have studied English - vay, vay!
You cannot impress anybody by chanting about Armenia ranking 130th in the world. But I am sure you would be impressed to know that the GBP of Turkey (population 70 million) is roughly equivalent to the GDP of Armenia plus the GDP generated by the Diaspora (population 10 million). I have published the link to this document in another discussion here on Armenian Weekely, so if you are curious you have to read them all. I am sure this will make you a better person. But you do not need to do that - there is a simple proof that this is correct: otherwise Turkey would have won the "debate" without any historical commissions, wouldn't it?
Just think about these three points that came to my mind. There are more, you do not need to reply. I hope you'll take away from this the best you can and not go down the route to construct arguments and post here.
At least not before you learn how to spell Gayane.
Comments are written in a small window which resulted in a spelling error in my previous comment
I meant the GDP (gross Domestic Product) of Turkey, not GBP.
Katia,
You mention the Blue Book. Perchance, are you refering to the infamous British Blue Book of 1915? If you are, then I'm sorry to inform you that Toynbee and the British government had already admitted that the Blue Book was a compilation of fabrications to instigate violence in the region so as to continue England's imperialism! They also admitted to the fabrication of the Zimerman telegram of the same era, just to try and get the U.S. into WWI! You see Katia, England was a major power player during this time AND would do anything to anyone (lies, manipulations, etc.), much like what dashnak Armenians did and continue to do, to maintain their empire and colonial aspirations! There's now even speculation that it was the British which sunk the SS Lusitania, and not the Germans. This ultimately got the US involved in WWI in 1917. So, if you're relying on quoting the British Blue Book (or Toynbee, Morgenthau, etc.), you'll just have to try a better source.
Amazing how Armenian diaspora monies and intimidation can get members of various christian parliaments to pass a resolution which they themselves are personally clueless about! Maybe we should get Ethiopia's government to pass a resolution recognizing America's treatment of the Native Indians as a true GENOCIDE! Nah, Armenian diaspora millions will just appear, as they always do, in the pockets of key Ethiopian politicians to not only stop the recognition, but to then bribe them into recognizing an alleged "genocide"!
Speaking of another country that recognizes the Armenian Genocide, add Sweeden to the list thanks to a Kurdish parlimentarian. Turks can boil in their own stew until jahenem freezes over. May they who deny the genocide rot in jahenem till eternity. Turkey's future is through recognition, reperations, repentents and return to Armenia what it stole.
Let us not forget 911 and who the real terrorists are in this world. Al Queda, Ergenekon and the Taliban. And, they are all related as one big happy family.
When Turks stop talking like Ottomans we will start to respect you. Until then, the world is united in what is truth and what is fiction (propaganda). Quit obsessing with Tashnags. Its bad enough they obsess with themselves.
To Nairian and others,
Mention has been made to Talat Pasha, etc. Armenians even produced a document "written" by Talat Pasha himself, ordering exterminations. One small problem though...this document, as well as so many other "documents of evidence" which the dashnak Armeninas keep prancing around, have long since been proven to be poor forgeries! One classic version of the Talat telegram was "written on a French school's stationary", and was actually being tried to be passed off as authentic by dashnaks. The first document was shown to be fake when, after examination, the seal of Talat was completely wrong and the codes which he used (in every message) weren't even close.
As for the rest of your comments, Hitler once said that if one tells a lie to the people long enough, they'll eventually start to believe it! Nuff said!
Supportive and thank you messages are in progress from the Armenian President, Foreign Minister, and Speaker of the Parliament to their Swedish counterparts?
I also accept that Ergenekon is one of the most terrifying terrist organization that had ever grown in the entire terrorism history. There is not doubt on that!.
But it is really funny when you relate Ergenekon with killing of 7 CIA staff; and also 9/11.
And for Sweden.. that is sorry to hear, but who cares about Sweeed
Robert denialist Turk,
There are enough proofs from numerous sources about the veracity of Talaat's documents, telegrams to the Syrian governor to exterminate any Armenian who finally set foot in Syria; despite the fact that they were all women and children, who walked the death marches without food nor water, and miraculously survived the death marches, half dead half alive and yet Talaat's telegram to the Syrian governor distinctly ordered him to kill all Armenians (women and children), and because the Syrian governor didn't obey Talaat's orders he had to leave his post. There are numerous such documents by the then US Ambassador Morgenthau alarming the US State Department of Talaat's systematic annihilations of the Armenians in Turkey. And as of late, a complete diary of Talaat was given away by his wife who systematically plotted the annihilation of the whole Armenian race. Btw; you turks don't know anything else than to blame every which way on the Tashnags, you don't know anything else but that.
Btw; Hitler and the Turks have a great deal in common, don't they? Yes they do indeed. In fact, what Hitler said that if one tells a lie to the people long enough, they'll eventually start to believe it! Applies exactly to the Turkish population in Turkey, including yourself as you and your people have been brainwashed by your government now for 95 years that Turkey is a peaceful, non-genocidal country and you suckers believe it.
Robert,
What Hitler said in regards to telling a lie long enough to people they'll eventually start to believe it, it typically applies to the Turkish people in your country and yourself as well; because you people have been so very well brainwashed by your government that for 95 years you people believe that throughout 900 years of your history ever since you mongolian Turks charged in to our country have been peaceful non-genocidal people. What Hitler said it applies exactly to you all brainwashed Turkish people.
Robert,
Just as I thought.... Didn't I tell you to be brave and put aside all the brainwashing and prejudice you have been fed by your country, and decide for yourself. The Turkish governement came up with conspiracy theories and smear campaigns to discredit the Blue Book. The British government put a compilation of eyewitness accounts (mostly non-Armenian) because they wanted these events to be recorded. The Ottomans made it illegal to take pictures of the deportees, and anyone including a Turk who tried to save them were punished by death. Most of these eyewitness accounts were transmitted to the British by by your now great ally, the US! As a matter of fact the originals of those eyewitness documents can be found at the Public Record Office (Kew), Bodleian Library (Oxford), National Archives (Washington, D.C.), Library of Congress (Washington, D.C.), and the Houghton Library (Cambridge, Mass.) The originals!... you want to tell the US that its archives are phoney?
Robert, read the Blue Book...and then decide. By the way, o boy!... Toynbee and the British government never said that it was a fabrication... as a matter of fact, recently when the book was finally published in its uncensored format (in the original the names of the eyewitnesses were erased in order to protect them), translated into Turkish (and sent to Turkey's parliament, of course they were refused) members of the British government praised it and said it was time for Turkey to face its past.
The Blue Book is for non-Armenians. Each Armenian family has its own "Blue Book" because most of us are descendents of the survivors, and we had to live listening to their eyewitness accounts.
But from all your conspiracy theories, the one about the Tashnaks "colonial aspirations" takes the cake!! Colonial what! We lost our country, our own lands...
Most Armenians went to be slaughtered as sheep (the Turks loved those), others defended themselves and faught for their lives.... they were called Tashnaks.
Next time someone rapes your wife, and starves you and your kids to death, massacres your relatives and then takes off their clothes... do not fight back,.. they might call you Tashnak.
I am sorry that I am getting excited, but you do not know how hurtful your comments and theories are....
Vay Greg jan.. apres... :)
Ches patkeratsnum te how much i laughed the way du ira anuna u ira sxal dzevov im anuna grela kartasi...apres.. I loved it..:)
Shat mersi...
G
Antranig jan..
You know why they are obsessed with Dashnaks? is because that is all they have to point out.. they dont' have anything valid to use against the truth ....it is a way of getting out of the truth by using unrelated matters and insignficant facts...esh en esh.. iranq mart chen...
Oh.. and Greg jan.. I want to say thank you for pointing out the fact that Turkey with its largest population have the similar GDP like Armenia.. because apparently Ahmet was so proud of his findings and was so concern about Armenian's high unemployment... One would start worrying about its own country's shortcomings especially as rich of a country as Turkey.. oh I am sorry.. CORRECTION and this is directed to APUSH (Ahmet) and APUSH"s BROTHER (Robert) and everyone that sides with these two...as rich of a country as ARMENIA...the lands your people forcefully took from the Armenians.. anter shner......
G
Mr Robert...
I feel sorry for you sir.. I feel sorry that your brain cells no longer have their own movements.. the way they brainwashed you is absolutely amazing.. WOW.. i applaud Turkish govt for doing a great job at it..
however, your obsession with Dashnaks and your statements that go back to them at every chance you get will not serve you justice.. why don't you just drop it and admit that what you are saying sounds soooo ridiculeous that I don't even want to write anything.. however, my fingers are just typing as if they want to rip your words apart and slap you out of you dream world..
YOU yourself just proved a HUGE point sir Robert.. and I quote... "Hilter once said that if one tells a lie to the people long enough, they will eventually start to believe it.." wow.. what a clear cut statement about Turkey and its people...perfectly describes you Robert and your govt.. Thank you for bringing that out to light.. Appreciate it...:) ENOUGH SAID.....
Have a nice evening Sir...
G
Dear Mr. Sassounian; Once again you are a champion of good brainstorms and leadership abilities. My hat's off to you and thank you for your insightful articles one after another and your unyielding patriotism! I am with you one hundred percent. Many here read your articles and hopefully will adhere to it, but please also post the above in the Asbarez Weekly to reach out to our people in the West coast. It's important that the majority read it and hopefully would act upon.
Dears Gayane and Greg, I know it's easier said than done, nevertheless please don't take it to heart what a few denialist brainwashed Turks such as Robert has to spew garbage on these commentary forums. Your state of health is much more important for myself and many others in here.
It is very simple calculation.. Ergenekon is a terrorist organization, then they must have some connection with Al-Quada, especially if there is a common ground in their respective Sunny Muslim religion, for sure Ergenekon are connected to Turkish military (GENERALS).. they can pass sensitive NATO security information toward 3-rd party, the best choices are US natural enemies such as Al-Quada and other unknown terrorist organization, in Muslim Caucasus and Central Asian nations .....this is a big blow to US and Israeli national security.. bottom of the line we should never get away from main topic, most Turks like Ergenokan, they make movie out of that and dancing like wolves around the fire.. Please see this below URL..
PART III: THE GREY WOLVES
Comment DEAR MR. GREG THANK YOU
I AM DISAPPOINTED WHILE TURKS NEVER GAVE A CHANCE TO HRAND DINK TO EXPRESS HIS OPINIONS BUT "ARMENIAN WEEKLY" ARE PUBLISHING THIS MAN'S IGNORANCE OR PERHAPS FURTHERING HIS SPYING EFFORTS.
I have one book written by a Turkish historian which footnotes an order to exterminate the Armenians signed by a German high command. Robert, you are telling the lies over and over again. Why, I don't know. I have a lot of books; probably some or many of them are available in Turkish libraries and bookstores. One of the writers in Hurriyet said for instance Toynbee's history is readily available. He said books are available on this topic in Turkey which tell the truth, but also he doesn't feel that he has to be held responsible for the genocide because he didn't do it. I agree with him. The younger Turks who are not responsible for it should not be held responsible. Perhaps, that is why there is more freedom to talk about this subject in Turkey. The perpetrators of the genocide are dead; perhaps their crimes were being hidden by Turkey since many of them served in the govt. Now that the criminals are dead, there is no longer a reason not to talk about the genocide, about what happened; there is no reason to have article 301, a penal code punishing people for speaking about it. After the genocide, the govt. was ready to make restitutions to the Armenians, but that govt. fell and Ataturk's took over. Maybe there were too many guilty people in Ataturk's govt. and they kept their guilt a secret. But now all those people are dead; there is no reason to protect people who are no longer alive. The new generation is not guilty and should be able to speak about the Armenians. Therefore, all Turkey's gag orders, bribing of our politicians and your posts are no longer necessary; they are sure to be a relic of the past, more so as time goes on.
Gayane,
Since my comments that good people here have found fit to print drive you up the wall give you violent thoughts, here are some alternatives, in fact, two very distinguished Armenian leaders who were in the middle of it all and are as authoritative as anyone else on the topic.
Hovannes Katchznouni was the first prime minister of Republic of Armenia. He was a prominent Dashnak leader. His manifesto he presented in the Dashnak congress in 1923 is an excellent summary of the state of the affairs of Armenians and also a good insiders view of Armenian efforts going back decades to undermine and participate in the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, homeland of so many Armenians. Here are the parts I would like you to really absorb:
“It would be useless to argue today whether our bands of volunteers should have entered the field or not. Historical events have their irrefutable logic. In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from organizing and refrain themselves from fighting. This was in an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation: that mentality should have found its expression, and did so. And it was not the A.R.F. that would stop the movement even if it wished to do so. It was able to utilize the existing conditions, give effect and issue to the accumulated desires, hopes and frenzy, organize the ready forces – it had that much ability and authority. But to go against the current and push forward its own plan – it was unfit, especially unfit for one particular reason: instinct but weak in comprehension.”
Also:
“The Winter of 1914 and the Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all the Armenians in the Caucasus, including, of course, the Dashnagtzoutiun. We had no doubt that the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered, and its Armenian population would at last be liberated. We had embraced Russia whole-heartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance. We had created a dense atmosphere of illusion in our minds. We had implanted our own desires into the minds of others; we had lost our sense of reality and were carried away with our dreams.”
Also here is the letter of one of the prominent leaders of the Armenians, Bogos Nubar Pasa, an Ottoman citizen, sent to the Allies and newspapers in the West, to make a case for inclusion in the Lausanne Conference, on the opposite side of the Ottoman delegates, among the Western powers trying to exctract thast few concessions from the new Turkish Republic:
The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby. In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed
The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed”
Is there anything to add to the above? Most of these people were born and raised Ottoman citizens, they held high posts in the Ottoman government and state! Given the massive and mortal threat Armenians presented, it is even commendable and remarkable how tolerant and accomodating the Ottoman policies were. I am sure very little of this will penetrate. Facts are no match to the power of myths.
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Wow! this Gayane lady is precious! Brave, Strong! We need more like her!
Nairian,
You seem to have failed to see the irony and contradictions in your grandafathers service as an officier in the Ottoman army while supposedly Turks, driven mad by extreme nationalism, were trying to exterminate their Armenian citizens. Even a bigger contradiction is of course the fact that Armenians were among the leaders and founders of that dreaded and Armenian-hating CUP! Obviously two sets of facts can not be true at the same time. My grandfather had a Greek camp de aide who saved his life and a Greek doctor in his unit. This did not prevent what followed in 1919-1923. There were of course patriotic Armenians who resented enemy boots on their soil, and they were dealt with rather harshly. Many Armenians who were civil servants or people of means who did not support the Dashnak cause were brutally assasinated. My grandfather witnessed a child assasin take out a partizan leader who was seeking his protection, right in frontt of him - reminds one of the more recent tactics of another fanatical group. He saw first hand the handywork of the fedayi, now all credited goes to the Turks of course. He was astonished to find, based on a tip, a huge cache of weapons in a hidden basement in Akdamar Church, automatic pistols that even as a professional soldier he had never seen before. Armenians by that time had established even underground war academies, they could field troops which fought pitched battles with Ottoman Army, and were instrumental in the fall and capture of major cities in the East, Van as you mentioned, and Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum, Erzincan, etc. not to mention brutal killing of most of their Muslim populations, including my granfather's family. Do not take my word, check into any of your propaganda books and you will see pictures of well armed fedayi all over the place. They did a lot more than defend themselves having prepared for this battle for decades since the Berlin Treaty. Read my earlier post. Get informed. It is hillarious that you urge me to get educated on the topic while repeating the farce of Talat's orders and myth of 1.5M dead Armenians. While you are at it, why not quote Hitler too!
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Well put Katia...thank you!
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Dear Avedis
If you are so Genius in "Think Tank" Strategy in this regard, then what is your Strategy to Bring Turkey to it's knees?? Otherwise Stop Complaining!!
Comparing what ARF/ANC spends for Armenian People's Rights, Demands and Justice
Did you know that Turkey Spends over $50 million just over this in washington and In general globally spends over $200 million a year?
As they say "Shit floats"
well THERE IS A DIFFERENCE between killing someone who WIPED OUT YOUR WHOLE FAMILY AND RACE and taking revenge and there is a difference between a simple guy who was just trying to have the TURKISH PEOPLE understand his peoples pain caused by turks.
so please don't compare two different causes.
ONE OF THE HIJACKERS WIFE AT 9/11 WAS A TURKISH WOMEN, who hated AMERICA. please check online and you will see.
TERRORISM IS WHEN the TALIBAN THROW ACID ON WOMEN AND children for going to school in the name of allah,(please see pictures onine as proof),
and TERRORISM is when MUSLIMS SUICIDE BOMB innocent people in the name of allah.
AND NOW TURKS ARE KILLING KURDS, i mean who do they get along with??,
and they would not allow THE USA TO go and attack IRAQ from TURKEY when the war began, i'm glad that USA saw their true fake faces.
The continuing punishment of Turkey for turning away from its military run secular government...
Nairian,
There are no nations on earth without corruption. Even with all its internal and external problems, Armenia is actually better off today than most nations on earth. Armenia is gradually getting better, despite what you think. Anyway, you sound like a teenager. As hard as it may be, I suggest you deal with reality - instead of creating a convenient fantasy in your head.
I forgot to add: these things can happen even in the absence of an effective lobbying effort by us Armenians - precisely when the political time is right!
Ankara is moving towards Islam. As a result, it's being punished. Washington can't afford to do it directly, so it is allowing other governments to send the message indirectly. I also believe that all this was planned some time ago and may very well be connected to the the signing of the protocols.
Needless to say, Sargsyan's administration has been playing a brilliant diplomatic game.
Dear Robert,
Please understand that this style of "discourse" does not lead anywhere. You may be paid to do this, but your paymasters also read the lack of impact of what you write here. Please grow up and stop exploiting internet anonymity, drawing false authority to make frivolous statements.
You blantantly lie about the Blue Book.
Only some months ago, Lord Avebury - member of the British Hourse of Lords, took a trip to Ankara and handed out to Turkish MPs the unsensored Turkish Translation of that book. Please find out how he was greeted. The prequel is that in 2005 Turkish MPs requested from the British Parliament that it denounces the Blue Book as a fabrication. Needless to say that this was completely ignored - by one of the stauchest allies of Turkey in the modern world. It could not have been otherwise, as Turkey appeared as a distressed child throwing its toys out of the pram.
Written to the soul of my mother,
Victoria Mehran Dabbaghian ( 1910- 2002)
Oh, President Obama
I still ...can’t believe
You’re dancing with cruelty of inhumanity;
Those one day ruled large part of the world
With their scimitars.
Are you afraid from their scimitars to rule you?
Even if you are so far, they can do!
They already gagged your clever tongue.
Even if you’re their beloved
They can vanish you and every one on their way.
You're for them like a fly...
They don’t have beloved.
For them the blood is their pride.
Watch theirs’ flag:
A white crescent surrounded by red sky.
Crescents are theirs’ scimitars
And the innocent star standing on the front
Waiting to sigh!
One day when You reach-aged.
You will realize what you did indeed, was unfair.
With fair people who know who are you.
We can see, they are pulling you in their red-skeleton mud,
To show others they can always prevail!
“The days will prove those stanzas were true.”
March 12, 2010
_______________________________
My mother died on 12th March 2002 till her last sigh
She was remembering how she was lucky to escape from that bloody Genocide!
Hastert, another one, now aligned with the Turkish governments efforts in denying the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. Hastert, and all the citizens of the USA thus aligned with the Ottotman mentality of the current Turkish leaders, have opened a 'can of worms'. These Americans aided and abetted the Turkish leaders, still of Ottoman mentality to be distracted from the real issue that is facing the world - the unended cycle of Genocides, sadly in Darfur, in the 21st century.
Imagine, if in our halls of Congress, in the early 20th century, following the Genocide of the Armenian nation, Turks shall have been found to be guility
of their Genocide, made to pay their reparations and more, then,
ALL the Genocides that followed shall never have been.
Then, the cycle of Genocides shall not been pursued by despots - for the world shall have not allowed another Genocide, anywhere, anytime, whether by foe or by any "ally". The cycle of Genocides - ended...
Manooshag
Facts remain facts and myths remain myths. Maybe when Fiji parliament approves a similar resolution then the myth will turn into a historical reality! Reaction of the Turkish government is juvenile and silly. It just feeds the frenzy and encourages the hate groups.
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It is hard for me to believe that Avetis, Arpi, and Suren are true Armenian Americans. All of you need to see the world half full rather than half empty. I'm proud to say I am the offspring of Armenians who struggled and lost their families in 1915.
The two points of few presented in the comments about this article are miles apart. I'm so proud to say I've know this family since the boys were toddlers and to see how they have grown into young men and proud to serve the country that has given them the greatest freedoms one can have. Candace and Felix, parents of the boys have every right to be proud of the boys.
Talk about them being brainwashed, I feel that some of you are brain dead.
Get a life!
Normally I don't comment...I just read. It never fails that when an Armenian woman shares her journey and the story is about being married to a non-Armenian she gets this...however comment. THAT is part of our problem.
I am married to an Irish/Italian/American and we have a beautiful daughter. We live in Lancaster, PA where there are about 10 Armenians. Our daughter goes to Armenian camp every summer and she is very proud of who she is.
I work very hard as an Armenian Activist in my community. AND I am sure Christine does as well.
I think it would do us well to celebrate how wonderful it is that we embrace the diversity of our community and realize that narrow tribalism is exactly what set out the Ottoman Turkish Governments progrom in the first place.
This was/is a beautiful article and instead of alienating Armenians it embraced ALL of us. So thank you.
GAYene,
Did you say the diaspora does not answer me? I laughed a lot :-) Look how many diaspora members have answered to my replies. You are wrong once again!
You deliberately avoid touching on the issues i raised about armenians in armenia and be defensive. WHY? Why cant you answer my specific questions ? Because it is not to your highest interest to do that.
Whether you accept it or not, the greedy and selfish reign of diaspora over armenians in armenia is coming to an end. You will see this when the protocols are ratified.
Then you can ignore me big time if you wish!
Greg,
Can you preach Gayene like you did to me? Because apparently Gayene does not know how to host a guest and USE CAPITAL LETTERS to communicate with me.
I am not trying to impress anybody by bringing up the commission . I am telling you the truth. Once the protocols are ratified, you will have to chew, swallow and digest the TRUTH!
GDP generated by the diaspora? what GDP? How illiterate it seems to boast of the so called GDP generated by the diaspora while half of the armanians in armenia is starving and complaining about unemployment? Please, please, please answer this question. I am really curious.
Why do you guys have to contradict with your very thoughts all the time?
What a joke!
You refuse to let Yerevan fall prey to trusting Turks?
Today's Armenia is a proof to what happens if Yerevan falls prey to trusting diaspora.
You dont get it . Whether you are aware or not, the selfish policies that diaspora is trying to dictate on Yerevan are only hurting the very people in Yerevan who you think you are trying to protect.
Think deeply about it.
Dear Medical Doctor,
By trying to ban me from expressing my opinions, are you wanting to be like those who killed Hrant?
Contradiction, contradiction, contradiction...
Avetis, I see that you have undermined first Giro Manoyan, then Vahe and now me. You can undermine and put us down all you want but the truth prevails. The only watchful party that there is both in Armenia and in the Diaspora is the A.R.F. I totally agree with Vahe that today thanks to our ARF leaders and ANCA our government in Armenia have slowly come their senses and started acting patriotically and more sensibly towards both Armenia's sovereignty and Artsakh's independence. Thanks to ARF's stand, leadership, the watchful eye and their work, today I can sleep more peacefully. If it wasn't for them Armenia's population would have been in the dark, not knowing what the heck the government was about to do by signing those protocols. I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Manoyan that instead of utilizing all the media, the TV for broadcasting Russian programs, mob or latino and cheap talk shows as Vahe mentioned it above. I agree with Giro that it is imperative to broadcast about what's going on with the voting in the US Foreign Affairs Committee and let everyong in Armenia know what's going on in the world. And why shouldn't the people in Armenia be interested about it? If the government and the Oligarchs are less corruptive themselves and instead see to it that the people and especially the young adults in Armenia are brought up more patriotic, then they all should be very interested to know what's going on around the world about the Armenian Genocide Resolution. That's what the government should strive to do in Armenia - to first have that most of the people are provided with job opportunities then and at the same time to make them to be patriotic Armenians. Any Armenian government should strive for this, and I know that's the first thing that is in the agenda of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. And that is why I fully trust them and I understand where they are coming from.
Thank you Sweden for the recognition of the Syriac (Aramean) Genocide
Karekin
I believe you underestimate the revolutionary and activist aspect of the Dashnak movement. It does not seem right to portray it as a merely defensive movement. This also seems to be reflected in central Armenian historiography, like Nalbandian's history of the Armenian nationalist movement, and in Anaide Ter Minassian's history which even contains a whole chapter named the Bulgarian Way. That is, the strategy to provoke Muslim reprisals and count on the interventions of the powers, like in Bulgaria. The speech of Katchaznouni of course also testifies to this.
But as I have said earlier it is in a way meaningless to make a dichotomy between defensive and offensive strategies. The Dashnaks worked to promote the interests of Armenians, and this might mean to defend local communties but on the other hand to seize the moment as revolutionaries and rebel against the Ottoman State. I believe one should not be moralistic about this. The Dashnaks planned for rebellion like so many peoples who lived as minorities or with foreign masters. They also worked for self-defence. One can hardly blame them from a moral point of view. There is nothing dishonorable in rebelling. But sometimes it is a dangerous game. But dont portray rebels as if they were determined by events and had no choice. It is strange to portray the Ottoman Armenians as if they simply were peaceful peasants and merchants who for some strange reason became victims of genocide.
Thank you Sweden for recognizing the Assyrian/Syriac/Chaldean Genocide!
Dear John:
I will echo Gayane's comments above and I'll also say... WELL SAID FRIEND... WELL SAID!!!!
One more addition though; now it is 21 countries that have accepted the Armenian Genocide, 42 US States and the Foreign Affairs Committee who voted yes with 23 respectful votes!!!!!!!
Ahmet,
Don't you read your country Turkey's news? Turkey is afraid to ratify the protocols because Armenia's Constitutional Rules said that Armenia will see to it that the Armenian Genocide will be accepted by world's countries as well as it mentioned that Western Armenian lands do indeed existed and was Armenia. Furthermore, your Turkish government wants to put Artsakh's independence issue part of the protocols, something that Russia, the US and France as well do agree that it was not part of the protocols. Read your country's news.
The Turkish comedy continues with new episodes providing comic relief for the masses! What a shame that a country can't honestly come face to face with its own history. The fact that the Turkish government has refused to acknowledge the Armenian genocide over so many years and educate its public about such a crime is indicative of how backwards and zealous Turkish society is forced to remain.
Ankara's foolhardy temper tantrums in the face of truth will ensure Turkey's recalcitrant stagnation as a proud republic of intolerant radicals.
Thank you Gary,
I am amazed at how long their pathetic cover up has lasted. I guess it lasted as long as they could offer bases and money to Europe and the US, while we were still trying to recover in numbers and strength. They think that all they have to do is call these stories lies, and ask countries to say that their archives are fabrications and that will automatically take care of history. Ataturk changed their alphabet from Arabic to Latin so that noone will even be able to read all the court martial documents of the trials of the Young Turks. And they are still using the pretext that all this came out because Britain and France meddled in their affairs because of their own emperialistic aspirations. That is the most absurd thing to say from a people who actually had an empire ruling over other peoples' countries. The difference between the Roman and Ottoman Empire falls is that none of the lands the Ottomans occupied were historically theirs to retreat back to, and that's why they fought tooth and nail to keep whatever land they could, and when cornered they massacred the native Armenians etc, grabbed their lands and made the Turkish Republic out of them. They are giving desperate explanations because they know that their entire country is illegal. They originally came from Central Asia in small numbers, their way of living was raiding and taking others properties by force. They mingled with the local Byzantines and lost the slant of their eyes. I actually pitty the Turkish people because their leaders have robbed them of their history and created a fake one in order to legitimize the existence of their country. Lebanon, Serbia, Belgium, Palestine and Syria got their countries back and we got scr..ed. Another so called empire that is resorting to desperate acts to keep its foothold is the United States of America. I have lost all respect for Obama and Clinton, I do not even want to see their faces.
Murat,
There is nothing that it can derail from the truth or contradictory when we speak about a people's history. My grandfather for 2 years was in the Turkish academy before he was sent to the front. As a matter of fact he didn't know the facts about the systematic annihilation of all Armenians in the Turkish empire. He learned it later that all his 35 member family were all either killed on the spot and the women had to walk the death marches. From his whole family only his one younger brother and his sister survived. Thus including himself, 32 members were killed by the Turkish government's orders. On my father's side my father was the only survivor in his entire and extensive family. On my maternal grandmother's side in Smyrna when Cemal Ataturk burned Smyrna, her entire 150 member family were all slaughtered in cold blood. Only 5 of them surved out of 150 members. So yes, these are facts and they are the history of my own family, let alone my entire Armenian nation when more than 1.5 Million of them were annihilated brutally and atrociously. For your information the A.R.F. were not able to do practically nothing at all in Erzeroum or Erzingan when my father recalls that the Armenians after walking the death marches from Erzeroum, they were taken a little further from the city of Kharpert and they were all slaughtered first then thrown into the ditches. My own father saw all these Armenian masses of people coming into town then being taken away. Mr. Davis from the United States who was in Kharpert at the time went and saw how all the Armenians were being slaughtered and where they were being thrown. Davis has recorded all this and his manuscripts still exist.
In Erzencun, you can read what happened to the poor Armenian people in there by reading Soghomon Tehlirian's memoirs when he defended himself in-front of a jury in Germany. His whole family were slaughtered right in-front of his eyes and he was miraculously saved as he was brutally knocked down and thought to be dead under his family's corpses. Van was the only city that the ARF's Fedayis were able to save the people from being slaughtered by the Turkish government, because the ARF was able to arm the people and train them before the Genocide.
I congratulate all of us. Besides the long struggle by our Armenian brothers, this is the first step in our struggle for us Assyrian\Syriacs to have recognized one of our biggest tragedies in the past millenia. One half to two thirds of the Assyrian population were massacred in Anatolia for no other guilt than being Christian. The blood of these innocents cries out to us for justice, it falls upon us to give them a sebmlance of justice by having the world recognize the evil that occured in those years...
Murat,
The truth and facts of our sad history are anything but myths. They are not myths that the Turkish government headed by Talaat Pasha systematically gave the orders to annihilate every Armenian that lived in Turkey in 1915. All you have to do is to educate yourself and speak the truth about it, but you won't learn this from your denyalist Turkish government of today, there is the 301 Rule in Turkey that is against Turkishness to utter about the Armenian Genocide. Why is that? I know for one thing, because they are afraid that when the whole world passes the Armenian Genocide Resolution they'll be faced with their country's ugly truth of Genocide against their harmless citizens who were brutally, atrociously and barbarically slaughtered in cold blood from 1915 - 1923. Isn't that why the Armenian Genocide preoccupies Turkey so much that they have to give the US congressmen millions of dollars every year to gag them and to vote against the passing of the Genocide Resolution? Face the facts, the truth will set you and your country Turkey free!
This is ridiculous. these people are waste of time.
Ahmet,
Come on dude! The Armenian Diaspora is standing in the way of Armenia's progress? We all know this is the new song and dance of Turkey because Turkey wants to put a rift between Armenia and the Diaspora. This is getting old. Turkey is scared of the Armenian Diaspora because the Diaspora is the true owner of Eastern Turkey. Since when wanting your house and property back from robbers is an act of selfishness? Come on you can do better than that. Armenia is where it is because of you. You killed 1.5 million that could have become 6 million now if not more, you need to pay for their lives and the lives of the offspring they could have generated and the wealth they could have accumulated for our country. Armenia is behind because your government closed its borders and applied illegal sanctions in retaliation to another Armenian land that wants its independence: Karapagh which was given to Azerbaijan by Stalin. Armenia has survived your illegal blockade that was supposed to impede its progress and its main blood line has been the Diaspora in whatever capacity it has, and now you want to cut that off too by trying to brainwash the Armenian people that the Diaspora is the cause of its problems. Come on dude, this is kindergarden stuff. The protocols are so babyish: we will reopen the borders that we closed illegally in the first place if you guys accept our illegal borders and give us another chance of disproving the Genocide...oh and throw in there the return of your land Karabagh... Come on man... Lame, lame, lame
To Avetis and the likes of you; Enough is enough. Enough of the trash you guys are spitting out. Enough trashing the hard work the ARF, ANCA and AAA are doing for the sake of not only the diaspora Armenians but to Armenia as well.
For the record may I state that I am not affiliated with any of these organizations, but as a true Armenian American, I watch closely and read about all what they do throughout.
Today Diasporan Armenians and Armenia itself are enjoying the fruits of what ARF has done in the past and is still doing. If it wasn't for ARF there would not have been the First Armenian Republic of 1918, consequently the the Soviet Republic of Armenia and nowadays Republic of Armenia, instead it would have been like today's rep. of Ingushetia or Chechnia in the Russian Federation.
It was the ARF who kept the Tricolor high above their heads for seventy long years, it was the ARF who kept the National Anthem alive in our hearts, it was the ARF who kept the Coat of Arms that the Republic of Armenia uses today. Avetis, these are undeniable facts. Add to all these the hundreds of schools, churches and other organizations the diaspora has all over the world, have kept the Armenian language, moral and spirit alive and vibrant in the hearts of generations after generations of Diasporan Armenians.
Do not try to tarnish these commendable and enormous work by spitting out filthy words.
The lack of intellectual, rational and spiritual integrity of certain commentators here are shocking for me as an Armenian-American. What does Armenians having a good life in America (which is a relative matter) have to do with seeing a certain unpleasant realities staring us in the face?
Realities such as: the US government being in bed with Armenia's enemies; the US government engaging in bloody empire building; the US government exploiting peoples and natural reserves worldwide; the US government curbing the civil liberties here in the states; US government using its armed forces as its impose its will upon others... The US has gone from the most loved to the most hated and/or feared nation on earth.
Special interests that essentially own politicians in Washington and the military industrial complex of this country are utterly ruing this once great land. The US military was meant to protect the US, not engage in global domination in the name of megalomania, oil and Zionism. US servicemen today are - directly and indirectly - murderers of innocents worldwide. Anyone knowingly and/or willingly serving this war machine is at heart, a criminal.
Unlike some delusional people who have no ethical/intellectual problems feeding the unAmerican and inhuman bloodthirsty war machine here, I see myself as a "true" American patriot.
Katia:
Way to go girl...hura, hura, hura! (the old ARF song!)
Sylva jan.. that was sooo painful righteous .. brought tears to my eyes..
very very powerful poem... Your mother may she rest in peace is very proud of you..
Grag jan.. Mersi..we need strong individuals from all over the world to succeed and not spineless leaders such as our govt..i might as well call them Turks.....
Nairian jan.. you are absolutely correct.. our health is much more important...but it feels so good yerp vor sents mi hat slap enq hastnum et anter shneri eresnerin.. especially strong individuals such as Katia, Greg, Antranig and others.. it gives me satisfaction...
G
To: Nairian
We all have similar family history.... alot in common! My grandfather lost his first wife in Kayseri in 1917? 1918? Grandpa manged to go to Cypus & then to Egypt, His only son survived and later came to Alexandria with grandpa's sister.Thank you for telling the truth to people who have no sense to read for themselves!
Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians need to cooperate more, a lot more, especially in the US.
The truth is that Armenians are the most politically active of the three groups in pushing the genocide sand related issues, though there are many more Greeks than Armenians in the US.
The top Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian organizations must coordinate better, especially at the grassroots level.
When there is a Greek, Assyrian, or Armenian issue in some state or other locality, members of all three groups should be pushed by their respective organizations to join in and work together.
In the Massachusetts campaign against the Anti-Defamation League, the Greek American grassroots (and the top Greek organizations) took no part, even though the ADL and other Jewish groups such as the AJC are uniformly opposed to Greeks as well as to Armenians. It was in the interest of Greeks to join Armenians in this campaign, but they didn't.
I believe that Turkey fears very much the coordination of Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians in lobbying efforts against Turkey.
Very well said Katia, One correction though Katia jan, if the Armenian Genocide didn't happen by Turkey, we would have multiplied to be 44 Million not 6 or plus only. Imagine 44 Million from Armenians all around the world. That's what we've been royally scr....d, our Western Armenian historical lands and our most valuable assets... our people.
Indeed, the Armenian people in our homeland know that the Diaspora is not only part of them and their bloodline; but we are the backbone of our beloved Armenia and Artsakh. We are all one!!!!!
My dear Katia:
You know our history well. Thank God that there are still some of us who know the truth. We also know 'the truth sets us free'. Liars are in bondage to Satan!
It is quite unfortunate that we still are being betrayed by our own governments (Obama, Clinton and many others taking bribes)
I live in Canada but the USA is home territory even if I need a passport after 52 yrs. of freedom of movement across the border. I have not been in the U.S. since 1996 but have many friends and some family too.
Very well said Robert! I also know the long and the extensive works of the A.R.S. since it's inception in 1890. I don't know if anywhere in the world there is a patriotic party that survived this long. Indeed their goal for 120 years has been to think for, to fight for and to work for the vast Armenian people, for the sovereignty of Armenia and our Artsakh's independence that was ours to begin with, and plus to regain our long lost historical lands back.
Ahmet,
You still can't spell my name right.. WOW.. how many tries does it take for you to get it..? why am i surprised?...hmmm
You must be one HIGH PAID and PADOSH ERESOV Turk.. (this is for your own information information not for yelling purposes.. my caps is to ENPHASIZE something I want you to see it very well Aghmagh).
We are asking you leave this room because we are sick of your UNINTELLIGENT and BRAINWASHED comments... hence, you are wasting our time...
And when everything is done.. YOU and YOUR GOVT will not only chew, swallow and digest the TRUTH but you will face JUSTICE.. and hope everyone who believes Turkey did not commit Genocide may rot in hell.. then they will know how it felt to be in hell.. those poor souls that had to endure all that...
Get a life Muhmet...
G
To Ahmet...
BIG VOIDE AND IGNORE!!
Rest in peace...
G
Katia jan..
I am SO WITH YOU.. Obama and Clinton are dirt to me.. no more ...
Than you for your beautifully written history in a nutshell.. APRES..
G
Katia jan..
As my grandmother would have said.. " VAY MERNEM YES QO JANIN".. i want to say that to you...
Well said.. as I said they are afraid of Diaspora because they know we will KICK THEIR their teeth in no matter how many gag rules they put on US, how many threats they throw out there.. Turkey can't stop Diaspora... scary cats...
G
Ragnar,
The case of Ain Wardo and other villages and towns of Tur Abdin shows that it was not merely a case of rebellion and response. I recommend David Gaunt's book, 'Massacres, Resistance, Protectors: Muslim Christian Relations in Eastern Anatolia During World War I'. I would also recommend research on Raphael Lemkin, creator of the legal term 'genocide'.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
Well, we now have at least two Turkish ambassadors who are vacationing in Antalya. May their numbers increase...
Gayane jan, you are a very good and important inspiration in here as well. Chi moranank janes kez bes lav Hayerin vor ge baderazmin sa geghdod martasbannerun het. Abrin polor lav Hay martgantse payts chi moranank kez neman kach ou aznevakan Hay ginerin!!!!
Dear Gayane...I don't know where you live, how old you are or where you get your energy from...but it is absolutely powerful...Asvadz yergar giank da kez!
Do not give up on telling the truth. You may tell from my spelling that I learned Armenian in Egypt. My grandparents (both sides) were from Kayseri!
Question: In one of the books I am reading right now (Armenian Golgotha) there is an Imam who actually understands Armenian and speaks a few words e.g. he says 'khosdovanank' ...does anyone know what % of Turks can actually understand our language? I am curious! Fo myself I wish I could understand more Turkish...I could read alot more of their propaganda!
Even the Turks know their ancestors (not today's people) are guilty and must return our property back soon. Unfortunately some people near the Armenia/Turkey border have only recently burned their titles to their properties!
Keep up the good work!
@JakeInLA
whats your point their still being persecuted and cant sing or speak the Kurdish. turkey is a fascist state i think you need to understand that. go look up what the definition of Fascism is.
Vahram "Vee", even with all their faults, places like Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and Palestine took in Armenian genocide survivors as well and Armenians there made a very good living. The aforementioned nations today are targeted by the corrupt/greedy/bloodthirsty employers of these naive enlisted men - with utter destruction in the name of Zionism and energy exploitation. I suggest you stop shamelessly spewing Fox New propaganda and realize that the US military today, as well as its politicians that lead it, no longer serve the interests of this once great land.
Katia jan,
The Ottoman ruled on three continents peacefully for 600 years until you guys sided with russians to undermine the existence of the Empire. You cant deny that.
the genocide is an artificial creation of the diaspora that has been used to unite its very existence. without your invented hatred towards Turks, you would have already evaporated.
Simple logic! Why would the Ottoman bother to relocate armenians to other places of the empire, while it could have been easier to kill them where they were? If the intention was to exterminate a race, why would the already depleted sources have been spent to escort armenians so they can move? the administration even allocated gendarme forces to protect those who were moving. these documents can be seen in the archives. this alone is the proof that it was not a genocide. You and I must admit, however, that both sides suffered individual acts of violence.
So, the Turks must go back to the Central Asia? is this what you say? This is the funniest thing ever expressed by armenians and greeks alike. :-)
if you are an Armenian-American I have some advice for you. Why dont you go back to Armenia? Why do you prefer to live in a country whose ancestors came 1000s of miles away and occupied the lands of the Native Americans?
IF YOU CAN NOT GO BACK TO ARMENIA, THEN I WOULD SUGGEST YOU STOP TALKING ABOUT TURKS GOING BACK TO ASIA.
Turks would only go back to Asia if today's Americans, (who are French, British, Irish or Italian descent) decide to go back to their respective countries.
Obama is clever,Why should the current Turkish government be held accountable for perceived crimes committed by the Ottoman regime almost 100 years ago?
Katia jan,
you say "Armenia is behind because Turkey closed the borders." But, then, why does the diaspora oppose the opening of the borders which would result in not Armenia's being BEHIND anymore? If you dont want the borders to open, that means the diaspora wants armenia to be BEHIND!
this is simple logic . pre-kindergarten stuff ;-)
You know Gayene, when people become so desperate and become unable to solve their problems with material means, they resort to divine help. they ask the divine being to burn their enemies in the everlasting flame (hell).
Did you just wish that I burn in hell? ;-)
Gayane et al,
Please note how you all speak. As is typical for you, the vulgarities and defamations always start to kick in when you see that you have lost a battle of wits. It doesn't really matter, because not only are we used to this type of behavior, but it simply solidfies what the world already knows about Armenian character. We know that you're frustrated, envious, jealous, angry, which leads to the establishment of a low self-esteme. This is classically observed in most defeated people.
I do have one basic question which I have posed for quite some time to many of you. I have yet to see a single response which made any sense. However, to be fair, I shall pose the question once more. Assume that ALL of your wishes came true regarding Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia. Let's say that every country's government in the world sided with your diaspora. Okay, the question is this...How would Armenia enforce any ruling? Which country would risk everything and try to make Turkey give up one square millimeter of its soil, or a single penny from its treasury? Who would invade us to do your bidding? Everyone knows that what a politician or a parliament votes on today will very likely be different tomorrow! So, tell us...which country will risk going to war over Armenia? What's in it for them? Right now the US is stuck in Afghanistan and Iraq. Over 80% of military supplies, troop transportation, ammunition, air cover, evacuation routes, etc. are dependent on Turkish air space and Incirlik Air Base. Turkish commando troops have been fighting in Afghanistan ever since the first US and British commando units went in post 9-11. They've been in command of all ground forces twice already. They play an integral part in the war on terrorism (BTW, can you say ASALA, JCAG?). The people of the world are tired of losing their loved ones in a war that may last for a while. Given all of this, please tell us just which country is going to risk everything for Armenia? We all await your answer.
MR. AHMET(S).... THIS IS MY LAST WORD ( EVEN THOUGH I ASKED MY COMPATRIOTS DO NOT WAST THEIR TIME TO RESPOND TO YOUR FABRICATION. BUT FOR RECORD I IMPEL TO EDUCATE YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE FOREVER....
SIR, LISTEN CAREFULLY , NEVER, EVER EXPECT PEACE BETWEEN OUR NATIONS NOT NOW NOT TOMORROW AND NOT IN ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE (FORGET PROTOCOLS)
WE ASSURE YOU, THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT , WEST, EAST , NATO. EVEN ARMENIAN OWN GOVERNMENT NEVER , EVER ARE ABLE TO CURE OR RELIEF ARMENIAN NATIONS CENTURY LONG VERY, VERY DEEP 'STILL BLEEDING" WOUNDS ... UNLESS, TURKISH NATION AND TURKISH GOVERNMENT COME TO THEIR SENSES, RECOGNIZE AND COMPONSATE FIRST TWENTIETH CENTURY ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND ATROCITIES WHICH HAD BEEN COMMITTED BY YOUR ANCESTORS....
OTHEWISE ANIMASITY BETWEEN ARMENIANS AND TURKS WILL CONTINUE FOR GENERATIONS......
if you are talking about ancesteral lands, Australians must go back to England, Americans should go back their back homes like you all Armenians go back to Armenia, Greeks, Italians, Japanese and many more...
There is No armenia called in todays armenia which is all Azeri land. So, what is ancesteral land..
You should talk about Armenians waering French , russian and British Army uniforms at WWI to kill innocent villagers in Turkey and then Turkey rightfully relocated many Armeinians to other Turkish Lands,at that time, Syria , Lebanon, Iraq.. Turks has all the right to do that. remember America did it to its Japnese citizens at WWII , America relocated all Japnese Land owners to New Jersey because of security. Those lands never returned to its original owners.
The war was lost by by Armenians and Turks were stabbed backed by Armenians always..
Be real and you can not have both ways... Kill and be right.. Tell me when Turks have done such killings in the History Never. But you can always see french , brits , russians and most recently dutch, serbs in Bosnia and Karabagh you invaded.
Look at yourslves first what you have done dear Armenians...
Grish
who are the Dasnak , ARF and many more Hayastan secret organizations.. They are not Terrorist Organizations because they are Armenian and they are revenge takers . So you can not call DASHNAKS as Terrorists.. !!!!!!!!!
How many diplomats were killed by those Dashnaks do you know?
Sorry you armenians are being very prejudice against almost everyone hately to agianst Turks of Turkey and Azerbaijan... Please read little bit what Hayastan soldiers did in Karabagh in 1988 from the eyes of others not just your own. Then you will start to see the other side of the coin.. Hatred will NOT take you anywhere....
Gayane jan, if you were next to me I would have given you a big hug! It's an honor for you to tell me what your grandma would have said. You truly have a big generous giving heart. May God bless you in every way.
Gary, Hura to you too our Canadian, but first and foremost, Armenian friend! We all ended up somewhere, but we can unite in a heart beat.
Nairian, you are absolutely right, experts are saying our number would have been close to 40 million now if it were not for the Genocide. I read somewhere that the muslim population in Turkey was around 4 million in 1915, the Turkish population now is close to 70 million.
We should not forget to honor and thank all the courageous Turkish journalists and historians who are openly acknowledging the Armenian Genocide and descending from their governement's denialist policy. Taner Akcam for example wrote an article right after the recent passage of Resolution 252, where he told President Obama that his decision to go against the resolution is actually more hurtful to Turkey's future. He told him the sooner the truth is acknowledged and the wrong corrected, the better the chances for Turkey to become Democratic and move forward. "How can you look to the future when you have not dealt with your past?" And that applies to both Turks and Armenians.
MR. AHMET/AGENT ARMENIAN PEOPLE BELIEVE THE MERDER OF HRAND DINK IS CONTINUATION OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE BY INHERITANCE NATURE AND ENVIRONMENT SIR DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINION, WHO? WAS BEHIND THE HRAND DINK'S MURDER AND NOW WHO? IS COVERING UP THIS SHAMEFUL CRIME??.........
Hye, if the Ottoman and their subsequent leaderships had been adjudged early in the 20th century to be guilty of the Christian Armenians... imagine... ALL the
Genocides that followed shall never have been. The issue today before the world too, is that the cycle of Genocides must end. Today, 2010, Darfurians suffer a Genocide, and the Sudanese are attempting to deny their guilt!
When shall the civilized nations of the world come together and perpetuate the
guilt of the Turks - hence any despots who seek their convoluted goals shall know that the world has ended the cycle of Genocides on our planet Earth - now!
Manooshag
Dear Medical Doctor, (MD)
I am not expecting a peace between the two nations because this will not serve to the interest of people like you and the diaspora. As long as you and your compatriots are alive, true peace will never come.
but, the protocols are digging your grave. you know this and you are very angry.
This is the last manifestation of genocidomania of the armenians. Hrant's killing is a genocide?
there are estimated 40 thousands armenians in Turkey. If one of them, by chance is killed in an accident, would you considered it part of the so called genocide? this is entirely a joke.
Tell me about the Turks killed by ASALA?
ROBERT, VERY GOOD JOB BRO!
THOSE ARMENIAN DIASPORA SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IF IT WAS NOT THE VOTING POWER THAT THEY HAVE IN THE USA, AMERICANS WOULD NOT GIVE A FLIP TO THEM.
THOSE LEGISLATORS WHO VOTE IN FAVOR OF THE RESOLUTION HAVE NO IDEA WHERE ARMENIA IS.
THIS IS A JOKE. THE THING PASSED BY ONE VOTE. WHAT IF THIS ONE PERSON HAD FALLEN SICK AND COULD NOT COME TO THE CONGRESS?
THEN WOULD THE ARMENIAN DIASPORA ADMIT THAT THE GENOCIDE DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE IT WAS REJECTED BY ONE VOTE, BECAUSE THE PERSON WAS SICK?
T.H.I.S I.S. A J.O.K.E !!!
It seems the facts, a prospect of honest discussion of the events of 1915, true acknowledgement by people on either side of their dark past, are not really as important as sticking another finger into the Turkish eye. What do more such resolutions and politicizing have brought us so far? Who do you think is winning and what? Will Armenians declare victory finally, and declare they won the second round when The Eskimo nation passes a similar resolution? Shame that propspects of normalization have all but gone.
Sweden has recognized the Armenian, Aramean (Syriac) and Greek genocide.
This is a victory for justice.
We Armenians, Arameans and Greeks must stand together.
Together we are strong, and we have to fight peacefully with one voice.
Long live Armenia, Aram and Greece
Sweden has recognized the Armenian, Aramean (Syriac) and Greek genocide.This is a victory for justice.
We Armenians, Arameans and Greeks must stand together.Together we are strong, and we have to fight peacefully with one voice.Long live Armenia, Aram and Greece
WAR,OIL,MONEY..... THE SAME OLD STORY
This is truly frustrating... I feel like I'm dealing with a bunch of school children...
Anyway, dinbats, when have I or anyone else here questioned the significant historic role the ARF has played in Armenia or the diaspora? Open your eyes and see that we are talking about the ARF's political uselessness in Armenia today and its wasteful modus operendi in Washington. Deal with the topic of discussion. And for this "Nairian" to suggest that it was the ARF than influenced Armenia's government to take a harder stance towards Turks recently is soooooo loutlandish, sooooooo absrud, soooooooo *&%&$% - that I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. I ask you again, do you people really believe in what you write or do you do so just to be a pain?
Kurt,
This has nothing to do with Dashnaks....our land occupied by invaders called Mongol, Seljuk, and Ottoman Turks ..and they committed GENOCIDE against their Christian subjects...why you Turks don't understand...a place called Azerbaijan never existed...Azerbaijan real name is Aterpatekan it means land of fire worshipers..
real owners of Aterpatekan is Iran...the land so called Azerbaijan should be divided between Iran and Armenia... please go educate yourself and see the how world maps have been changed since mongol invaders..Mongol Turks were not civilized colonist either, Turks can not be compared with European race...they burn and destroy Christian Civilizations...today's Turk do not looks like mongol anymore, they Islamised Armenians and Greeks and, mixed up with their huge Kurdish population..
Recently, the USA apologized to the Japanese-Americans who were interned and made reparations to them (I don't recall the amount). School children in California are taught the Japanese-Americans were interned because of prejudice. Sup. Ct. Justice Rehnquist wrote a book which explains why the internment was wrong. I have suggested many times these are steps Turkey could follow in regards to the Armenians.
Only the Japanese-Americans in California and perhaps the west coast, who were closer to Japan geographically, were interned. Japanese-Americans in Illinois were not interned.
Nice. United in hate. Always a winning strategy. I guess when the nation of Sioux also finally pass a similar resolution, then the victory will be complete. Then what?
Childish and emotional reactions of the Turkish government are just that. Just feeds the frenzy.
Dear Avedis
You haven't answered my Comentary Q, to you?
Sireli unger khmbagir', chgitem te inch es uzum stanal nman anhargo yev hivandagin khoskeri sharanits? Duk arit eq talis LTP lakotner azgayin patvi het khaghan yev ankeghts yev ankhonj tghaneri amisneri baikare' yev yerbemni haghtanaknere' hech u puch anel.
Khorhurd ktayi vor asparez chtal nman turkamet , haka-azgayin khosaktsutyan verj trvi yev ays nyute pakvats haytarareq. Hakarak paragayin duq pataskhanatu eq dzer terakaravarman meghqov.
Avetis,
If anyone who has to grow up it is you!!!
Yes... yes... and yes... it was and it is A.R.F.'s watchful eye and under the direction that Sarkissian's government is getting into the right track!!!!
Bob Griffin,
no, obviously it was not merely a case of a reaction to a rebellion. My departure was from the following words by Karekin:
quote
For anyone, anywhere to assert that minority Anatolian Armenians – most of whom were forced into walking, barely clothed and starving, on dusty roads to Syria, could have decimated the vastly superior armed forces of the Ottoman army of Kurdish bandoleers is just ridiculous. The myth of an Armenian military capable of doing anything is beyond crazy.
Unquote
To my mind this means belittling the role of the Armenian revolutionary movement. To portray those who point to the importance of the revolutionary movement as implying that the deportees could fight the ottoman army is absurd. And neither could the ARF alone fight the Ottoman army. No, the threat was from Armenian guerilla cooperating with the Russian army. This made the Armenians - as guerillas and as civilian population providing sustenance for the Russians - a very dangerous element in the picture in early spring 1915. For me it is strange to deny this.
From Gaunt's book and many other sources it is evident that many Armenians and other Christians who never rebelled were targeted both for deportation and for massacre. The Armenians were mainly targeted on suspicion, I believe. There were many killers around, like Dr. Reshid. What to my mind is less evident is that this was the result of an explicit policy emerging in a consistent way from the top echelons of the state. possibly it was so, possibly not.
Be well
Ragnar Naess
Sylva jan, your poem brought tears to my eyes as well, especially when I only lost my sweetest angelic mother a little less than half a year ago. May yours and my mother's souls rest in peace. "Asdvads mer anoushig mayrignerun hokin lusavore. Abris ku boemnerun hamar yev sharunage misht aytbes horinel yev kerel Sylva jan."
Katia jan, yete tun yev Gayanen koves ellayik yes al tser yergukin jagadneren ge hampureyi. Shat aroghch medadsogh, xelatsi payts yev nayev kach Hay axchigner ek yerguket al, shad abrik!!!!!
Gary jan tun al mishd gankun menatsir, Hayerus bashdban erigmarte!!!
Doctor Babajanian, Thank you. Shat lave deghe terir at turkin. Abris!!!
Katia jan, I didn't know that Taner Akcam wrote that letter to president Obama, thanks for letting us know dear. What a nice and a just stand on his part. Btw; his motives are not solely to be good to Armenians; but with his wisdom and intellect he wants his nation to start rizing to a higher level of existence. He wishes them to start getting the respect of the civilized nations and to stop acting like the Mongolian herdsmen that came charging from the middle of Asia onto the Caucasus then to Europe almost a thousand years ago. Mr. Akcam wants them to start cleaning their name as well as their bad perception amongst people, and psychologically to feel better as people rather than trying so hard to hide their past killings and mistakes, to stop acting like juvenile, bad and lying children. He wants his country to start acting more responsibly and with dignity. Because when criminals continue to lie, their lyings will not stop and when they continue their criminal path, one way or the other they are bound to fall into the pit that will be of their own making. Taner Akcam wishes the best for his people; that's why he wants them to accept the Armenian Genocide for the truth will set them free. Mr. Akcam is a brilliant man who means very well for his nation.
Dear friends, Katia, Gayane and many others in this room. There is no doubt that we are all related in blood and united pupose & spirit wherever we live. The statement that 'we are the result of the Genoced' is very true.
Professor Akcam has always said that the truth and restitution to the victims' descendants will help Turkey the most. He and other free (not brainwashed) Turkish people realize that their present stance is seriously hurting them.
Thank you for the numbers. Only 4 million Turks in 1915? now 70 million and increasing 1/2 million per year? Then it makes sense that we would also number close to 40 million today.
I am about 2/3 through the book 'Armenian Golgotha'. What atrocities! It is totally false that the Gendarmes were for the protection of the deportees. Mostly they were there to collect bribes. The Turkish State didn't pay them or pay them enough? Or simply they were greedy and power hungry. Captain Shukri's attitude of extortion clearly shows the mindset.
Anyway...we know that the words are "baykar, baykar, minchev verch" Whether one is standing in Republic Square, Gyumri, Mid-Town Manhatten, Stepanagerd, Shushi, Los Angeles, Marseilles, London or Beirut!
God is on the side of truth, righteousness, and the persecuted though we don't know HIS timing! Lets stay strong, united and wait for HIS time!
Sirel unger khmbagir: What is it? You people only want to talk amongst yourselves - դուք եք ասու՞մ դուք եք լսու՞մ...
what do you mean so your happy that all your ancentors died because of turks???
For those who are making the anti-military comments surrounding the Gregorian family's decision, you should be embarassed.
This article was written as a tribute to an American Armenian family, who is surving the USA. Schools like Annapolis and West Point are institutions that not only provide leaders of the military, but leaders in the world.
While one may disagree with the reasons the US government decides to go to war, we shouldn't punish our soldiers for performing the tasks they have to do.
As Armenians, we should be proud of people like the Gregorian family as contributing to the world and should appreciate everything our soldiers do to protect our national interests.
German Responsibility in the Armenian Genocide: A Review of the Historical Evidence of German Complicity, by Vahakn N. Dadrian, Cambridge, Mass.: Blue Crane Books, 1996. Pp. 304.
"Vahakn N. Dadrian, an internationally well-known scholar on the Armenian genocide wrote an exceedingly important and scholarly book, not directly related to the issue of his long life interest of Armenian Genocide, but on the German Responsibility in the Armenian Genocide. This book is a review of the historical evidence of German complicity in the Armenian genocide. Indeed, Hitler once said "who remembers the Armenians?" in contemplating the Jewish holocaust. The focus of the present study is an examination of the role that German officials (both military and civilian) played in the Armenian genocide by Turkey, then an ally of Germany during World War I."
This was written for German readers. A review of the book is in findarticles.com
Disgusted,
Why did we punish upstanding Nazis serving their fatherland? Why do we want to punish Turks serving theirs? You people need a crash course in logical thinking. Like I said, the irrationality and lack of ethical integrity I see amongst Armenians today is breathtaking.
Pres. Sakisian should be with his people on April 24.....maybe he should
invite Secy. of State Clinton to Armenia instead. It would be more diplomatically correct but who said Armenia does what is diplomatic.
Hey that's the best joke of the year! If this continues, Turkey will soon have no international relationships! Vive 'recall ambassador' approach :-)
So Turkey is threatening to not send their ambassadors back to the US and Sweden? Good. Who needs them anyhow? Hopefully, these Turks will never return.
Turks have a highly inflated idea of their own importance. The other thing I am reminded of, especially in the wake of recent articles about the passage of the Genocide resolution by the US House committee, is how crude the genocide denials of the Turks are.
Turks have a standing claim that anyone who "rebels" against them deserves to be murdered. Now, that's really crude stuff and really ought to be analyzed by those who know Turkish culture best, but let me take a crack: The precepts of Western civilization, as flawed as they may be in practice, are not understood at all by Turkey. Turkey is an imitative country. That is, Turks try to be Western but do not understand, for example, that the West does not accept the argument that you can murder an entire just because, allegedly, they "revolt."
Using that logic, it would have been OK for Germany to murder Jews if some of them had revolted (which some of them did, no doubt). Turks don't realize that. They don't realize how utterly crude it makes them look.
Turkey's rationale that it can slaughter people if some of them revolt belongs to the culture of the steppes of Central Asia, whence Turks came. I feel sorry for Turks who put on a coat and tie and think it makes them European. It's truly a pathetic site to behold.
I was just thinking, Sargsian sees Hillary Clinton more than her husband Bill does. Hard to understand how Bill (or anyone) can stand the woman.
I mean, Sargsian sort of has to deal with her, but Bill can dump her anytime. Why doesn't he?
Mr Obama and the panicking arms manufacturers in U.S. should be reminded that Russia and France have acknowledged the Armenian Genocide and Turkey is dealing (buying and selling ) with both of them after initial tantrums.
PAROYAGANOUTYOUNE ANHEDATZAV,ARD.KO.NAKHARAR GE
HERAVIRA NAKHAKAHIN BASHDONAGAN AYTZOV OUR AE YERKERIN
NAKHAKAHE MR. OBAMAN? TSITSAGHELI KHAYDARAGOUTYOUN
AZAD, ANGAKH YERKIRI ME VODNAGOKH GENEN.AMOT HAZAR AMOT,
ASDVATS PERGE HYE ZHOGHORTIN AHAZAKAYIN TAKARTE ME.
GETZE HO.HE.TAN
HYE AZKIN BAHABAN
SMA,
It's interesting how none of you dashnak Armenians and/or Greeks ever even utter a single word about the hundreds of thousands of Moslems and non-Moslems(2.5M) who ultimately perished as a result of dashnak or Greek treachary. It's ALWAYS about how you are always the poor victim, and that no one else suffered! It starts to get old real quick.
Linda,
Typical dashnak Armenian...gotta lie like hell and deceive everyone into believeing a falsehood! The wife of the terrorist you mentioned was indeed a Turkish dentist living in the UK. her husband was the one that crashed the highjacked plane into the griund at Shanksville, PA. Nowhere and at no time did she EVER say that she hated the US!!! Capice! Your lies may work on ignorant politicians who are too stupid to know any better, but to the educated, we always see right through people like you!
Grish,
You keep forgetting that Armenians were constantly subjects of other Empires! These include the Roman, Persian, Byzantine, Ottoman and the Soviets! Why do you make it sound that only the Turks were the ones whom you were subects of? Are you people STILL trying to distort the truth and history? Now can you people understand why we want a neutral historical commission to examine ALL archival material and render their final decission? It's just that you people simply can NOT be trusted!! Sorry to have to say that, but you keep proving this very well known fact repeatedly over and over again!
Come on people! Where are you living, southern Texas?
Sexuality is part of everyone's life. EVEN WOMEN have sexual needs and think about it... if it wasn't important, it would be that goooooood! And oh yeah, most places that have rampant disease (AIDS or other STDs) in the world are not those places who have real honest education sex education, but countries where people know nothing about condoms or where their religious leaders tell them not to use them, those places where homosexuality is treated like a disease!
So everyone grow up, respect each other and learn to have sex - cunnilingus or other forms and stop judging people!
Cheers,
sexually satisfied in Montréal
Unless there happens to be another Robert, as far as I can see, I am the only Robert! And I am NOT an Armenian-American. I'm a Turkish-American! So whomever this Robert is, please put a charachter, number, or something else next to your name so that others may be able to differentiate between the two of us. Thank you.
My strict Armenian father, who was a soldier, didn’t allow me to register for any branch of the military and I am so glad he got his way. This was about a year before September 11, 2001. I can’t imagine the hell he spared me from. The only part I appreciated reading in this piece was about military colleges not being like normal colleges, “There are no parties”. It sickens me to see educational opportunities wasted.
It was high time Harut Sassounian took to centre stage and delivered a discourse .His ability to pinpoint turkish-ness and wisen them up a bit is commendable.He more than anyone,has been able to become our spokesperson ex-officio.But deserves to be officially so.His being interviewed regularly on USArmenia T.V. throws more light on issues that are contemporary and effective w/rgd to Armeno-Turkish albeit (un)-relations.One would think, this way the turkish so far un-relenting mindset as to accepting facts ,instead of denying them,will give way to some softening up,as is already being observed on a very small scale.But something is something ,better than nothing.If someone like him does not try to set forth to the turks their erroneous approaches to the issues at hand then they are liable to not only keep on with their "massals"(usually meant a s concocted up fake examples, rather than the real meaning of the wrd in arabic-persian-for that is what it meas .Bt their case as "fake' made up examples...
said enough.
Keep up the good work Harut,Diaspora's spokesperson!!!
Gaydz, with best wishes....
"U.S. should be reminded that Russia and France have acknowledged the Armenian Genocide and Turkey is dealing (buying and selling ) with both of them after initial tantrums."
Here is the beautiful part of this: France, which is responible for 1M deaths in Algeirs in an effort to put down their struggle to rid themselves of the French colonial yoke can not bring themselves to make amends and apologize. Sarkozy uttered, and I quote: "What use is there in digging up the past?" I will not even get into their handiwork in South East Asia, or the matter of Legion D"Armenique. We are not talking about some extinct empire, but modern France. Then they have the nerve to pass such resolutions. It really does not add to the Armenian cause in my opinion.
Then there is Russia. A nation responsible for the most massive ethnic cleansings in history. Anyone heard of Great Circussian migration? It was no migration, but a massive ethnic cleansing of Circussions from their ancetoral lands in late 1860s. It dwarfs anything else that happened since then. This demographic engineering continues to this day, many nations, most of them Turkic, have been driven out of their ancestoral lands and made extinct by Czar first and Communists later and Putin now. Struggles still continue in places like Chechneya. I will not even detail what they have done to Crimeans and Ozbeks etc. This is the Russia that has passed that such a meaningful resolution. I would not really bring it up too much.
You are right though, they are rather meaningless gestures, certainly facts remain as facts and not at the mercy of a bunch of politicians. The silly reactions of Turkish governments are truly misplaced.
More political games. With this inviotation, I think Obamaoglu and his lapdog Hillary are trying to pressure the Turks. Its also possible they are going to try to muscle Serj. Let's see.
ONLY OTTOMAN TURKS COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST DEFENSELESS ARMENIAN NATION....only coward people like Turks would do that...yes history of Armenia started way before Mongol Turks.. we have been constant under attacks by uncivilized nations such as Arabs and then newly Islamized Mongol Turks, who just changed their religion for their appetite over new harems located in the heart of Christian lands, took their bloody sword with the might of Allah beheading men and raping woman and stealing babies from their mother arms and raise them as new Turk...we don't need historical commission..and I do not believe that Armenians will be convinced that GENOCIDE should go under magnify glasses ..it is an awful feeling and humiliation...something that most Turks especially ERGENOKONS do not have..Allah is too powerful and always protect Muslims against none believers..cio my friend..make sure you behave like a "rightful Turk"..and talk to your fellow Turks that Genocide is not a LIE ...sooner or later Turks will admit their guilt and you will be the first to say I am sorry.........
To Apo:
From one Montrealer to another...I would say you are a super disgrace to our nation. That is assuming you call yourself Armenian? I lived in Mtl. for 22 yrs. I don't live there anymore but only due to political & language issues.
Yes, sex is good and enjoyable but only in the marriage covenant! I doubt if you have children? If you plan to have children what will you tell them? That you lived a 'sexually satisfied life?" :(
One maybe 'sexually satisfied' but unless one is married and your sex is with one's wife and only with one's wife...one is living a dog's life!
why on the eve of 24th of April?
don't they have any respect to our grandparents' memory?
Sarkissian is so wrong to accept the invitation that they, he can go 26th or 25th but not 23rd or 24th.
Nairian,
did you say "Taner Akcam wishes the best for his people".
That is true. He wishes best for armenians.
I never though I'd live to see the day when Armenians would make excuses only worthy of denialist Turks...
The young men in question will "proudly" and "faithfully" serve a corrupt war machine that has the blood of well over a million innocent lives on its hands. And according to a "Disgusted" Rambo wannabe, one can "disagree" with the government for making war but one can't blame the soldiers for fighting it. What? Can I blame the uniformed criminals in Turkey for killing many of my innocent family members in 1915? Or can't I, because they were only doing their duty to their nation? Were Nazis and Bolsheviks not doing their duties as well? Weren't the Vietcong doing their duties when they were torturing American airmen that were bombing their cities? Aren't Islamic fundamentalists doing their duties when they behead infidels? Are you people adults? Are you even human?
And we are only expected to "disagree" with a government that has essentially waged war against the world? Only "disagree" with a government that has undermined Armenia for the past twenty years and continues to be in bed with our enemies? Only "disagree" with a government that supports oppressive dictatorships worldwide. Only "disagree" with a government that has gone from the most loved to the most feared and hated on earth? Only "disagree" with a government that no longer serves the interests of this republic?
Besides which, as far as I know, individuals today "volunteer" to serve. These men "volunteered" to serve the global war machine in Washington run by special interests. Am I not right? As a result, I blame those who "voluntarily" join this war machine, more so that those who run it.
God gave you a brain, I suggest you use it once in a while. Acting like brain-dead flag wavers won't turn you into patriots. Opposing those who have hijacked this once great republic, on the other hand, may. I suggest you yahoos put down your Chinese made American flags and start thinking about ways to save this republic from its destructive path.
I can't believe how shallow, how hypocritical many of you Armenian-Americans are. And you folks are looking for justice against the Turks... in blood soaked Washington?
I believe that Aoush described it correctly.
Mr. Sarkisyan or his advisors should have evaluated how degrading the phone call was , before they respond positively.
Mr.Sarkisyan's meddling empowering U.S. to regain lost influence (2008 war) in Caucasus.
I can feel sorrow only that how easy we loose dignity and how easy others can manipulate our cause.
Bernard Fassier: the French co-chair of the OSCE Minsk Group mediating the Nagorno-Karabakh peace talks said: “Azerbaijan’s victory in the event of renewed war is impossible, because I know about the bravery of the Armenian and Karabakh warriors.” ... Brothers and sisters, these warriors are the ones you should embrace and be proud of. when and if the time comes we are ready to deploy and join these warriors in a heartbeat ! always maintain your marksman ship and stay in shape. Houra !
Thank you sweden for the recognition of the Aramean genocide!
I agree with Anoush, Mr president must be with his people on 24th of April. He has to show how much 24th of April is important for all Armenians. Mr Obama can wait if he has no hidden political tricks by inviting Mr. Serj Sarkisian right on a very sensitive day, April 24. Unfortunately our polititions never been on the right track. If they were, our situation could be better than now. God save us.
Of course, the servant comes running to the master's house whenever his name is called....
How obscene an act of cowardice. It is Turkey's PM who should be on his knees begging for repentance for their backwards policies of genocide denial.
Anoush and Vahe, I also agree with both of you. Absolutely!! President Sarkissian must be with his people going to Dsidsernagapert and putting flower on the tumb of more than 1.5 Million Martir's monument. Like Anoush said, he should invite Hilary Clinton instead to go to Armenia and join him putting flower on our 1.5 Million Martir's monument and pay homage to them. That the politically correct thing to do!!!!!!!
Ganadahay(Canadahay)
Euro-countries are awaiting the Anglo-Ams to recognize it ,then by and by they will also follow suit..To think otherwise is to imagine well wish that things will work out..
have patience..
April 24 is near..
Think instead of stregnthening RA/Artsakh and ...the Diaspora(s)
Best rgds,
G.P.
Dear Dr. Hovsepian: I hope... I hope and pray that Sarkisian will be man enough to gain from the opportunity of meeting President Obama and remind him to finally honor his campaign promise and his pledge to utter the word Genocide. Let's hope and wait to see.
This will show US that Armenia is willing to work hand in hand with US, and with headaches that Turkey is giving why not focus with your true ally Armenia US.
This is the year people. 2010 April 24th the world will recognize the genocide.
The name Robert has never been a Turkish name and I admit it is not an Armenian name either, but it has been used for generations. I know Muslims never use this name, hence I suggest you use your turkic name rather than advocating others to change their real name and use something else! It looks to me that you are so ashamed of your nationality that you have taken on Robert as a name for yourself to hide your real identity.
Dear compatriot Robert Dadoyan; At first when I saw your post then your name, I said to myself, this isn't the denyalist turk we know. Then I went back to see the little emblem colour next to yours and his name and I saw and made sure that his is violet yet yours is green. However your post earlier was written by a patriotic Armenian and not by the denialist turk the Robert we knew.
Btw; I agree with what you said above. Thank you for being here dear Mr. R. Dadoyan.
Vahe came close ...to the chess-game ..-read war-game,diplo give and take in the Region...
When war was lost -Georgia-it was time for RA to support JAVAKHK gain..at the very least Autonomy..Lost chance...
Now,as to Visit of Nakhagah Sarkissian .It is not clear on WHAT DATE!!!
it could also be in first week,second week of April or a bit later.Indeed to imagine only one day ahead of 24th is a bit early.This will be clarified in the not too far future.
Otherwise indeed all you people are correct.He sould not go if 23rd, or even 22nd April.Tha bodes "capitulation".On the other hand ,take an optimistic look at it.Perhaps she wants to convice Sarkissian to accept go about recognition Swedish style or even US style that is WTH ONE VOTE DIFFERENCE ONLY...she quite well knows the turkish mindset.Latter does not admit mutual compromise-if not to their whims-We must understadn that we are up aagainst a people that has inherited ttoman Empire turkishness...if they are to give in it will be "their style , i.e. ,at very slow pace...yavahs yavash piano pianoGAMAC GAMAC .
For turkish"wrath" may flare up and do yet more attrocities..while the West stands by and just wathces
We should have learnt a bit about their tactics..
I am optimistic with Nakhagah's moves..he is acting very Middle Eastern Style, so to speak...he must have gone through not only russian Shcola, but a also learnt from Persians Persian Armenians ..not to be like Arevmdahays ,i.e. tit for tat.
Latter can indeed work out with others BUT NOT WITH TURKS.
Witness not even little brother Azerbejan is softening up...they awai outcome with big brother Great Turkey.
Who made her that great? go figure out...then try to uderstand that others are there on the scene.not just great turkley...
best wishes to all
g.p
I didn't see any Armenians slam airplanes into the twin towers in the name of Allah.
Who would have thought that the decendants of that great humanitarian, Ghengis Khan, who later converted to that peaceful religion called Islam and sided with that peaceful colonial country called Germany, would have turned out to be genocidal maniacs who then decide to join in terrorist activities to wipe Christains off the face of the earth.
Do they still decapitate heads in this world in the name of Islam? Why decapitations? Is meant to cause terror?
Ahmet my dear,
Don't be so sure of yourself. It is possible that your or your friend's great grandma was also Armenian.
What your people committed was Genocide and the rule of law says you have to pay for it. I think they should also pay for changing history and brainwashing their own people (ie you).
The UN general Assembly characterizes genocide as: "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"."any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[1]
Your country is guilty on all of the above accounts. And you dare to say that we are jealous because we had lost and you were victorious. Clearing another people's land by killing unarmed women, men and children is a coward's victory.
You are hopelessly brainwashed and misinformed:
1. The gendarmes did not escort us to resorts. A few of them escorted us on foot to the desert, forbid anyone from giving us food or us purchasing food, and once we were away from the prying eyes of the Europeans in the cities, they were instructed to call in the Chetehs to first rob then massacre us.
2. They did not have to deplete any of their military resources; they simply released their prisoners, made the Cheteh units out of them, and send them on the unarmed Armenians.
3. Thanks for acknowledging that your people comes from Central Asia.
4. Do not worry how we are going to organize getting what is ours back; let the rule of law dictate that.
5. The no longer existing ASALA had revolted in vengeance just like your friends the PLO did.
6. Not only did you not answer Raffi's question, you are calling getting shot at point blank in front of your business "an accident", and you want us to let our country open its borders where people like Hrant Dink get shot "by accident?"
7. Thank you for acknowledging the protocols for what they are a "trap", by saying that the protocols will be "digging our graves". That's exactly what we are trying to explain to the Armenian government, the majority of the people of Armenia know that already.
8. The Diaspora and the majority of the population in Armenia (and Pres. Sarkisyan just acknowledged that) oppose the protocols, not because we don't want open borders and normal relations with our neighbors, but because our neighbor's "reconciliation" attempts are not "normal" they are flawed and bad intentioned.
Oh yes, and two more points:
1. The Ottomans did not rule for 600 years "peacefully", where do you get your info from? If they were ruling over other people peacefully than why all the other countries revolted against the oppression, regular massacres, humilating rules (like the Armenians had to wear red shoes and the Greeks blue shoes), and hugely unfair taxes just like the Armenians did? The other countries got their independence, we got slaughtered.
2. The vote "for" the Genocide in Res 252 was more like 45, because most of the congressmen "who do not know where Armenia is" said that they had studied the documents on the Genocide, they acknowledged that it was Genocide but they are voting against the resolution for now, because they think it is for the best interest of the United States (for now...).
Hey guys, cool....
This is just the next in the series of lies and manipulations by the Turkish media. A EU PM will never apologize for a decision from a democratically elected Parliament. What was actually said was:
Aftonbladet: "Han var mycket besviken över den svenska riksdagens beslut. Jag uttryckte också min beklagan."
If you do not know Swedish, you'll have to trust me: "beklagan" means broadly "sorry" and no Swede would see this as apologizing.
The Turkish propaganda machine is out of control and our good Turkish friends are shooting themselves in the foot, once again. Think how the ordinary Swede would react to this obvious lie.
There is some automatic keyword blanking for posts (understandable!):
My previous quote contained the letters "ult" unstead of the three stars, because of obvious associations.
Ya Murat, You know if your government has not covered up for the nasty deeds that they did to the Armenians in Anatolia and other places in present Turkey , you would have known the facts , you know that those masacers was going on since the 1800 not only in 1915 , and your governments used to sweep it under their carpet s , the genocide is a fact and Turkey refuses to accept it , this is not a victory for the Armenians this is the truth comming out after years of denials .
Unfortunately, the public is not aware of what pressure is being placed on Armenia by the GREAT powers. Right now, Armenia appears to be a thorn in a master plan revolving around possibly oil or some other vital commodity. Sarkissian knows what's at stake.
Enough said.
Armenians need to adopt to the century. Lobbying a hostile activity in every country on the world is not the "answer". Please understand this.
Globalism is changing everything. This issue needs to be solved between people. A lot of people were killed, and both sides accept that.
Try building it up from there...
- A friend
Yesterday when I read about this news on the Voice of America News.com website with the headline of "Sweden's FM Denounces Parliament Vote On Armenian Genocide"; Swedish Foreign Minister is Carl Bildt. He said that he has denounced a parliamentary resolution that recognizes the killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as genocide. I got alarmed and I was wondering whether the Armenian Weekly people here heard of this. I agree with Gregson that now what are the very cool headed Swedish people are going to say or think about the Turks' lyings. They're going to say "Hey vay" how much patience those poor Armenians must have to be next door to these Turks. I think all of us should follow Sassounian's recommendations and start acting and not just talking about it. Then we'll see whether the US Administration will pass the AG Resolution or not.
Before some you get carried away too much and embaress yourselves:
Haig Shiroyan, an Ottoman Armenian who became an US citizens, wrote in his Memories: “The Russian victorious armies, reinforced by Armenian volunteers, had slaughtered every Turk they could find, destroyed every house they penetrated” (Smiling Through the Tears, New York, 1954, p. 186).
Niles and Sutherland, two inspectors directly authorized by the US Congress in 1919, in their report (Niles and Sutherland Report) , noticed: “Armenians massacred Musulmans on a large scale with many refinements of cruelties” and that “Armenians are responsible for most of the destruction done to towns and villages”. This was based on their field observations and interviews carried out in the Bitlis and Van region.
You can imagine why so many Turks have a problem with the Armenian claims.
Turkey is sick.
And worst is that Turkey is mentally sick.
Turkey and the Turks will be crucified each time that a new country recognises Turkey's crimes and the Armenian genocide.
The shortest way to be liberated of crucifixion and the mentally ill situation is to recognise, repent and repair his crimes against Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and also the Kurds. That is, Crimes against humanity.
Otherwise, the illness of the Turks will be worsted to the level of getting mad.
Wow, Armenians slaughtered turks...except that there were no Armenians there, and those along the Russian front were all starving and suffering from diseases...those that survived the genocide that everyone but turks realize happened.
I'm not saying some Armenians did not take revenge but realize this, Armenians killed Armenians also during the genocide (tashnags mostly). There are many distractions but the bottom line is that war is hell, Genocide is worse but to deny it and allow the wounds to fester is a crime against humanity as bad as the genocide itself.
Turks prove their guilt by their 19th century racist laws in the 21st century, and Kurds, Pontiac Greeks, Assyrians, Chaldeans and every other ethnicity turks ignore are proof that we are not the ones with the grudge...its the turks. All of turkeys neighbors hate turkey, even the ones who have good relations with the government (currupt leaders) doesn't take away that the Syrians, Bulgarians, Cypriots, Greeks, Russians ect all HATE KEMALISTS.
Drew,
You first have to be brutally tortured, cut into pieces, burned and then killed by slow hanging, buried in shallow grave, your country has to be raised to the ground village by village, city after city, your churches and schools have to burned, looted and the millenial land you had have to be reshaped and renamed to become the land of the occupier.., your cemetaries desecrated, your mother, sister, wife and children all have to be brutally raped and their throats slitted, and you have to be able to watch all that, THEN multiply all that by the millions,
...and then the perpetrators would have to come and tell you.. "NONE OF THESE HAD EVER HAPPENED"
Try telling a Jewish person "common.. Nazis died in the millions too"
Now you could take your heartless, humanless, faceless, anti justice Globalization to whereever you wish..
YOU are NOT a friend.. for a friend seeks justice before peace, and not peace before justice. Hope you got my message..
To Ahmet and the rest of the Turcophiles,
Now that you have used and abused your first amendment by coming on this site, you must hear the following.
We all know that the Turkish government spends lots of time and energy to fund people like you as well as dangle money, positions, or threats to spineless politicians in order to deny the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. You must admit to cover up the truth is really difficult and costly. Recall the bones that were shown on "60 Minutes" at Del-Zor. Recall the specific documents from Talat Pasa. Why doesn't your government owe up to its past and move on with reparations? This Germans did such as did the United States in terms of slavery. I do have the answer for you.
The Turks were as a whole a nomadic, belligerent group of people who came from what is now Mongolia. Even their eyes are slanted a bit, similar to the people from the Orient. Through brute force they usurped the land from the natives and called the region their own. They formed the Ottoman Empire and ruled there for about 600 years. Thus their entire culture is based on usurping land and exterminating the inhabitants. You see nothing wrong with such a practice. Therefore, you don't recognize the crime in Genocide. It is how the Turkic nation has come to be.
We must admit that the ruthlessness that your ancestors have shown is also balanced with connivery, sycophancy, and double-dealing. Throughout history I haven't figured out how Turks could be a Muslim ally, a Christian ally, side with Naziis, side with Jews, side with the West, side with the USSR, side with Iran, side with the Taliban, speak against terrorism, etc. Similarly, when the time comes you suppress Hrant Dink and when the time comes you compare yourself to him. You speak of fairness but you denigrate people by calling them "Gay."
I admit that your entire nation has fooled many throughout history, including the US executive branch, even the current Armenian government. However, Armenians in the Diaspora, having lived next to you for years and having been persecuted by you, know you well. We don't see what advantage the protocols will bring to Armenia personally, other than being able to buy Turkish towels in Armenia for a bit cheaper. What the protocols do is buy you time until the Genocide is recognized universally and get Armenia to recognize your borders. In the long run the protocols aren't going to affect us either way. If you turn down the protocols, we'll further Genocide recognition internationally. If you accept it, we will also seek international recognition. Eventually, your blackmailing strategies and political posturing will run out. 95 years ago the Genocide occurred. That is a small time in our 3000 year history, where we have grown and shrunk, where we have emerged victorious and yielded. What we have done though throughout this time is ENDURED, much to your dismay. A nation that has nomadically traveled westward usurping lands and exterminating people lacks such inherent roots to endure. It lacks sound principles to endure. It has lived by the sword and it will perish by the sword.
In a deceptive move, you government is balking on the protocols in order to allow the world to think that they have a lot to lose in accepting it. I personally don't think the protocols will affect us much in the long run.
If you choose to write here, go ahead. We will respect your first amendment much like we do to the skinheads and the KKK.
Kiazer,
You're joking, right?!! Which Christian people tried to eliminate an entire race, and non-perfect people, between 1938-1945? Which rebelious/traitorious Christian group was responsible for the deaths of 2.5 million Moslems and non-Moslems, before, during and after WWI in Anatolia? Can you say the "CRUSADES"? How about the witch hunts in Europe? Who killed off most of the native American Indians? Who were behind the Spanish Inquistions? What about the Aparteid in South Africa? The French treatment of Algerians? The Congonese? How about the British treatment of their colonial holdings? Hmmm, the list is quite extensive. Gee wizz Kiazer, I just can't seem to find a whole lot of Moslem/Islamic peoples in any of the examples provided! I do see quite a bit of Christians though! Why do you suppose that is?
Nairian,
As usual, you speak yet you say NOTHING!!! This is quite typical for dashnaks, but will only be tolerated by a civil world for just so long. You were posed questions in other areas and have still yet to respond. Is there a particular reason why you are not responding, or are you simply playing the century old dashnak hit and run game? For your edification, the PM of Sweden is responding sincerely and truthfully to the obviously corrupt members of their parliament! Not long ago, the same thing was done by Poland's leader after their parliament went corrupt and made a stupid vote! I must say this much...those dashnak Armenian diaspora monies sure are flowing quite freely thses days, aren't they? But then again, I'm just a simple paid agent of Turkey!! What you all don't seem to realize is that all of these corrupt actions of your diaspora is already starting to backfire. Wait and see how things will really start jumping globally by summer!
Aside from the snarkiness of these comments, some of which border on racism (slanty eyes? - come on, folks..aside from not being true, it's unnecessary), everyone should note that a good amount of this dispute is the result of a divide and conquer strategy being employed by those who wish to control both Armenia and Turkey. I'll let you all argue about who that might be. I'll also tell you that aside from the nationalist/propagandists in the Turkish govt, most people in Turkey know exactly what happened to the Armenians, and they blame the Turkish govt of the time. The reasons for promoting the endless lies has alot more to do with Turkish fears and paranoia than with the truth about what happened. Fear is a great motivator and can push even reasonable people to lie thru their teeth (witness John Edwards), even if it is unrational. Some in Turkey fear that if the truth breaks thru the net that is keeping it under wraps, that somehow Turkey will go the way of Yugoslavia or, that they will lose their power base, their wealth (much of it based on stolen property) or their prestige. It's even more sad because they are losing the honor and the cleansing that would come from being truthful. I suspect that many in today's Turkish govt know this...and realize that the only way to rid themselves of this curse (brought on by a group of racist, greedy, nutcases) will be to ultimately confess it all. But, that's easier said (or thought) than done, especially when existing laws make it a punishable crime to tell the truth in public! A good first start would be to eliminate 301, and stop criminalizing an honest discussion of history in Turkey. Until that step, Turks will continue to be muzzled by those in their society who prefer dictatorial tactics to the practices characteristic of a true democracy.
Kiazer, Before commenting on Gengiz Khan please do some research and educate yourself before commenting. Gengiz Khan never converted to Islam, he was a Buddhist / Shaman all his life, it was the 3rd generation (nearly a 100 years) who after destroying Baghdad the seat of learning converted to Islam and only in the subsequent centuries founded the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century.
Well said, Sarkis. I feel terrible that our Mr. Sargsyan has to put up with these hysterical and irrational sentiments on a regular basis now. How must it feel going to important international meetings knowing that you are more-or-less alone, knowing that your people are too ignorant to stand besides you. Throughout history the Armenian people have always been the state's worst enemy. It's no different today. As long as Armenia fits the narrow, shallow and genocide obsessed mentalities of these pseudo-nationalists, it wouldn't matter for them if the homeland forever sinks in poverty and despair. You people here need to live several more lives before you even begin to understand the complexities, the intricacies, the difficulties of the political world. You people are also the furthest thing from true nationalists. And you are Armenia's worst enemy today.
I think people forget, that not accepting US State Secretory (essentially US Government) invitation is not an option. President Sargsyan has no choice but to go there, regardless of the date. However, what he has a choice in is not allowing himself to cave in, not making statements he will regret or statements that will undermine the fact of the genocide and the need to condemn it.
Hye, Serge, inexperienced, flattered by Hilary's invite - should not attend - especially in an April date - any meetings with this US State Department a/o
Hilary. Hilary never included all the Armenian entities which shall have been
invited to the March 4th event - cancelled, fortunately for Hilary.
Serge, inexperienced amongst these USA government leaders, should not attend without an American Armenian experienced entourage - stupid.
Manooshag
EVEN THOUGH CURRENT TURKISH ADMINISTRATION DID NOT EXECUTE THE MASSACRES OF ARMENIANS THEN WHY DOES TURKISH LEADERSHIP DENY THE 1.5 MILLION MARCHED TO THEIR DEATHS. THE MASSACRES/GENOCIDE WHICH THE WORLD KNOWS AND SIGNIFICANT HISTORICAL IS TRUE
Terrorism is ingrained in Turkey. They used terrorism to control and subjucate the territories that they occupy and prevent uprisings, democracy and independance for centuries. And now, they want to say they, the Turkish state was only deporting to prevent a so-called fifth front.
From Istanbul? Who are they fooling?
Why the state sponsored torture, beheadings and hanging of the intellectuals? Why take the Armenian soldiers in the Turkish army, who were in western front, disarm them, put them in labor camps, starve them, and then not even have the decency to shoot them first before burying them alive?
If these barbarians want a history lesson, they should go view Google's 5,000 pages of news prints at that time. Was the Ottomen empire at war in 1889 to blame the deaths of Armenians on such a war? They can also visit the US congressional archives and the library of congress.
They can either get their history lesson from such sources, or they can get it in other ways at the wrong end of a bullet as they got in Artsagh.
As long as we have sensible people like Sarkis and Avedis among us, there is still hope. Hatred, shortsightedness, and an obsession with the "recognition" of the genocide by some foreign country however "mighty" that country may be, will not change the facts! Denying a truth does not make it false. Let us concentrate on diplomacy, let us unilaterally support our country's leaders and statesmen to get on with the building of our nation! Let us go and live in our homeland and help it prosper . Let us do something really useful instead of just criticizing sitting in our comfortable chairs in our comfortable homes surrounded by all the comforts that money can buy!
Hye, Dawn/Arshalooys and Adi, congratulations and and all good wishes for
all your future endeavors. AYFers are proud of you too. Manooshag
Manooshag, Bravo
Ditto, well wrote,
Leave Armenia to Armenian,
you better fix the peace between
ISRAIL Vs. PALISTAIN
AS A GREAT COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
Turkey and the Swedish government are 10 years too late, almost to the day.
Surey I am not the only one who realizes that a Swedish Parliament report proclaimed the Armenian genocide to be a genocide way back in 2000. See here:
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.165/current_category.7/affirmation_detail.html
Really, folks, how pathetic is this? The Swedish executive branch apparently does not even keep track of what its own legislative branch has done.
As for Turkey's waiting 10 years to get angry, this is commendable restraint. But I think that Turks misunderstand the saying "Count 'til 10 before saying something in anger." The 10 refers to 10 SECONDS, not 10 YEARS.
I feel sorry for Turks.
Part of the legend of Ergenekon is they claim they are decendants of wolves. You know, those creatures that sniff each other's behinds and lick unthinkable things. If they are proud of this, let them display it to the whole world.
robert, the turk:
of course many Turks were killed during the years of the Genocide of the Armenian nation - pursued under the cover of WWI...
Turkey, allied with the losing nations was losing lands they had conquored and more, too their military fighting WWI. The victim Armenians had not
arms - brave Turks had taken any arms from them prior to their marches - to death.
murat:
Today the civilized world shall have to face the fact that the cycle of Genocides
shall end. Despots seek their convoluted goals via Genocides - all these
years, perpetrators of Genocides have 'gotten away' with murders, slaughters, rapes, women/children in churches which were set afire - no escape;
vilest tortures the demented mentality could devise which included bastinados -
beating the victims soles of their feet until they bled, until they burst - death, the
only release!
Today, 2010, the Darfurians are suffering a Genocide by the Sudenese. Now the
Sudenese are attempting to deny their guilt - ala Turkish denials!! In Turkey, over the years the Kurds too have been facing a Genocide for generations. Turks label the Kurds as 'terrorists' - thus enabling the Turks with their cohorts the
Bush/Cheney duo, to continue to pursue the Kurds. Actually, the Kurds are seeking freedom from Turkish tyranny - Ottoman style tyranny.
The cycle of Genocides must be ended. Turks shall admit to their Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation - for only then will future despots recognize that Genocides shall not be tolerated by the civilized nations of the world - committed anywhere, by anyone, whether a foe or an "ally"...
The cycle of Genocides - the murders and more of innocents - shall have to be ended - OR when/where shall the next Genocide occur...
Manooshag
Please note that Hitler's first name is spelled ADOLF-- not with Adolph...
A very interesting issue!
Thank you, TM
If the world had stood against the Genocide of Armenians at that time, and condemned those jihadist Turks, the world would have been a better place today!! it might have been saved even the Jewish Holocaust, which claimed over six million lives. The Germans had simply copied the Turks.
Nairian,
are you for real? you are accusing the armenian diaspora, the dashnaks, the so-called corrupt government members of longstanding European nations and in the same breath, redeeming Turkey of the billions it has spent on denialism campaigns over the past 7 decades - including bribes... have you had your coffee this morning? cause you don't sound like you are awake yet.
Robert,
What can we say to you as "As usual , you speak yet you say NOTHING!!!'
Because you know NOTHING. What can anybody expect from a person like you as long as you are "just a simple paid agent of Turkey!!"
I repeat what Armenian said to Drew above. Put yourself in the place of that victim.
You speak about Tashnak. You don't even have a clue what Tashnak is. Do you know that there are about 10 million Tashnak? Every Armenian is a Tashnak of your understanding. Henchag, Tashnak or Ramgavar are all together when an ignorant paid agent talks nonsence. How much the turks are paying you? Since "Tashnak Armenian diaspora sure are flowing quite freely thses ( I think you mean these) days" if Tashnak pays "freely" more than Turkey to you, I am sure you start drumming the Armenian drum, because you do not have concience and you are not after justice, you are after money only, because you are a mercenary.
For your sake, I wished you kept quiet. But how could you do it since Turkey is paying you.
Robert,
"As usual, you speak yet you say NOTHING!!! This is quite typical for Turks, but will only be tolerated by a civil world for just so long. You were posed questions in other areas and have still yet to respond. Is there a particular reason why you are not responding, or are you simply playing the century old Turkish hit and run game? "
It becomes even more interesting in your next sentence: "For your edification..."
What is "edification"? Making and edifice?
Dear 'Armenian' and other Armenians,
Dont take my earlier comment wrongly, I am not trying to tell you that Armenians were not killed, I am just suggesting a way out for 'peace'. AND yes, peace must come first. Because when you talk about 'justice' first, you wont every get anywhere. (ie. last century). Do you honestly think you can strong-arm a person into accepting something honestly? OR do you think all the Armenian lobby power in all these countries will never get tiring to law makers in those countries. People get tired of this every year.
Plus, getting some law makers in various countries to vote in favor of Armenian lobby is only depleting your hard earned money. That's why law makers are loving it. They make money off of you.
As for other type of justice, you have to go to war with turkey if you really mean it. If you are powered by injustice and lies, you will prevail. Collect all that money you spent on lobbying in 95 years and you would have a better result by now.
And most of all, if there is a 'normalization' effort between the two countries, why dont you build on that?
Excellent and thoughtful opportunity to get our word out to the greater public.
C/O Armenian Weekly, Khembaghrutyun
Sireli Hairenakits Yete menk mtahogh yenk mer Hai nor serundi Miamitutyan hamar....inchpesin yen sireli Gayane-nere Eli vochinch nrank Yeritasard yen?...... Bayts Zarmanali yev Mtahoghich ayd e vor Mi Karevor Azghayin - Hasarakakan yevs Kusaktsakan Organe - (ARMENIAN WEEKLY-n ) Chi andradarnum yev chi haskanum ays Ghordzakal/Agenti khaghere yev Hetin Npataknere ??.. VAY MEZ
Khedrem Ushadir kardatsek ays Lakoti namaknere, batsi vor ir Herhuranknerov mer joghovurdin Viravorum e Der noren Sandzardzakoren hai knojn el "Adzakanov" "miaserakan" kochum e talis e Talis Yev "Anhogh (Naive) Armenian Weekly-i el (Ghitaktselov kam anghitaktsabar) ir ebr "Azat ejere" nran e tramadrum vor ays Anpatkar-Kholighane inch uze ghre?? Ays Lakote oghtaghordzelov Armenian Weeklyi anhoghotyunits, haieri vra e khndum...Yev Mitumnavor u Ditavoryal hai knoj anarghume e Pokhelov Gayane- "GAY"ene- i (Gayane----GAYene) (Miaserakan)..... Tesek Lektiutyan asiijane ur e hasel........ yev Dezhbakhtabar mer sireli: Armenian weeklyn da chi haskanum yev tpum e lok nrants "Jraghatsin Jur ltsnelov" Amot e Amot mer hayeri hamar inchkan petke menk miamit yev "Anhogh" linenk Yev Urishinerin Mezanits Avelin ghnahatenk .............................................................. Petke mer sireli hayrenalitsnerin hishetsnenk vor Armenian Weeklyn, Minchev hima Anteselov mer nkatoghutyunere yev Mtahoghutyunere Sharunakum e tpel ays haka-hai lektii Herhuranknere ...??
Apsosankov, Ishkhan Babajanian MD
Thank you, Tatyana Macaulay, for the correction.
Doctor Babajanian, Iraganutyane meche shad iravunk unis verevi ku keradsovet. Mer Haygagan terte gam tertere bedk che miyayn mer keradsnere ushi ushov nayin yev gam yerpemen serpakren mezi, payts yerpvor adank geghdod turk me mer Haygagan terte jamane yev nakhade mer anzukagan Hay yeridasartuheein shad aveliov Armenian Weeklyi khempakragannere bedk che penav yerpek chi tenen anor kerutyunnere yev geghdod nakhadinknere.
Nairian
I think this world has gone pansy.
This is a great initiative! Creating awareness about genocides in colleges through speakers from different backgrounds. Similar events should be held across the country!
May the deniers and the complicit world bodies go to Jahenem and quickly.
I won't be traveling to Sweden . . .
"Drew" must be a worried Turk who monitors the Armenian websites....We must be doing something right!! Keep the faith fellow Armenians, after all, it is our faith that always scared the Turks!!
Kudo's go out to Wilmington High! More High schools/colleges need to address this vital part of HISTORY!1
It appears that there is something every U.S. president knows that we do not know. Pres. Obama supported genocide recognition during the campaign, but once elected, what is the information he has that we do not have. If it is for ally-sake, everyone forgets that Turkey forbade refueling of American jets when we attacked Iraq. We need to ask the question, what is the hold Turkey has over the U.S.?
I have to write this thought and suggestion to present this issue/program at the Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School where the current suit against the Department of Education originated. It can be another opportunity to learn more by how it is dealt with - if not already done. Best regards…
SOSY, NICE COMMENT (OUR FAITH IS TOP PRIORITY)
FRIEND, YOU ARE SELFISH AND I ONLY WISH YOU LIVED WITH TURKS SO THEY WOULD HAVE KILLED YOUR FAMILY THEN WE WOULD HAVE SEEN IF YOU WOULD SAY THAT EVER!!!!!
DREW, PLEASE READ THE DAWN HISTORY, BECAUSE WERE NOT OVER POPULATED LIKE TURKS DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE NO RIGHTS!! 75MIL AGAINST 3MIL GET YOUR MATH GOING! SECONDLY, NO CENTURY HAS PASSES OR WILL EVER PASS BECAUSE WHEN ARMENIANS EXISTED AND HAD HISTORY NON OF YOU DID, ALL EUROPEAN THINGS AND ARE EUROPEAN CAME FROM ARMENIANS BUT THEY ARE STLL HIDING UNTIL WE PROVE IT TO YOU ALL.
DIANE, YOU WILL GO TO SWEDEN BECAUSE TURKS HAVE NO FACE AND WE DO, CHRISTIANS AFTERALL ARE SCARED OF MUSLIMS THAT'S ALL!
ARMENIAN, I'M SPEECHLESS, THANK YOU, BEST WORDS WERE WRITTEN! AMEN.
TO ALL IDIOTS OUT THERE WHO DON'T THE HISTORY,
LIKE IT SAID MILLIONS OF TIMES THAT NOT ONLY ARMENIANS WERE MASSACERED BUT WERE ALSO BULGARIANS, RUSSIANS, GREEKS, ASSYRIANS, KURDS, GEORGIANS, SPANISH AND OTHER THAT WE HAVE NO RECORDS YET TO BE DEFINITE.
Drew, who gets tired of this? You get tired of this? then please do me a favor and stop writing about it. Go and watch MTV
To answer your previously put rhetoric as far as money and lobbying, why don't you ask YOUR Turkish Government to admit the Genocide and pay the Armenians back the money that they intended to spend on lobbying themselves. You don't seem to understand the difference between killings and GENOCIDE.
There will be NO NORMALIZATION between Armenians and Turks so long as you and your types are trying to force-bury your crimes.
If your mother was murdered, I wanted to see you get the BALLS to accept an offer from the criminal to make peace and "get on"
I tell you what.. GET A LIFE! because honestly you are truly, honestly, sincerely, cordially, PISSING OFF every single Armenian on this page.
There will NEVER be peace without justice.. you get that? NEVER! WE WILL NEVER ALLOW YOU TO MURDER OUR PEOPLE TWICE BY DENYING THE GENOCIDE AND TRYING YOUR VAIN ATTEMPT TO "MOVE ON" because you and Turks could move on.. we cannot, murderers usually are the one's wanting to "move on" (what else they could say? "let's accept our guilt?") We Armenian's will never move on, will will stay and fight and struggle and go on and on. You wrote about war.. THAT IS our WAR against Turkey. War all over the world.. kid!
One more thing.. I am NOT YOUR DEAR.. I am your enemy.
Thank you for this perspective, Mr. Yegparian, and for calling the Kurds your "cousins". The Kurdish Question is indeed a key to peace in the Middle East.
Sibel's work is so profound, it's hard to know what to say. I thought when we first saw her on 60 Minutes years ago, how she was kicked out of FBI for telling the truth, the world had blessedly changed and the traitors would soon be on the run. What a shock that it didn't happen then, and it hasn't happened yet. The only strange, cold comfort comes from knowing true history, which displays how long and hard that so many people had to work for there to be any social progress. It took 80 years of activism, for example, for women to get the vote.
But we ARE in an accelerated age, and thanks to heroes like Sibel, Truth may soon reach critical mass. I'm going to scrounge up some dollars for Sibel, in order to help the breakthrough come sooner rather than later, and I hope everyone who cares will do the same!
http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/12895/a/141436
... and you can freely send them a message :)
I’m a Kurd and from Iran and very delighted with this article of yours which dealt with concerns on Kurds’ plights living under their tyrannical regimes in meddle east.
Please from now on, go on telling the true story of Kurdish suffering there to your fellow Americans.
God bless you…
I am so proud of Armenians, and being an Armenian. We are talented, educated and resourceful people. I am proved of my heritage, and inspired by hearing about successful Armenians. My late dad (god bless her sole) use to tell me about Armenian talent in jewellery, and how they are the best.
Well done all Armenians for if was not for us world would be a duller place, to say the least.
God bless you all,
Seda Vartanian
Hi Garen,
My name is Roj and I am a Kurd living in Kurdistan. I would like to thank you for your article for the LA coverege of the Kurds. And, I agree about you saying that they're approach is the same as the state department's line, and that is they can use evrything not only material things, but as well as the humanity and its values for their economic benefits.
If we let the world know that we would not seat back and let the Turks commit a genocide and the sweep it under the carpet, and all the other powerful nations would not put their monetary gain before human right, then no other nation would dare to carry out such a crime, because simply they know they can not get away with it.
Now every body can understand why we insist on the matter. It is for the good of all man kind not Armenians only as Turks would like the world to believe.
Finally history should never repeat itself, and we Armenians (god bless our stubborn nature) would make sure of that, rest assure.
"The Turks were as a whole a nomadic, belligerent group of people who came from what is now Mongolia. Even their eyes are slanted a bit, similar to the people from the Orient. Through brute force they usurped the land from the natives and called the region their own. They formed the Ottoman Empire and ruled there for about 600 years. Thus their entire culture is based on usurping land and exterminating the inhabitants. You see nothing wrong with such a practice. Therefore, you don’t recognize the crime in Genocide. It is how the Turkic nation has come to be."
I thought Hitler was dead!
This is what I like about internet, how its anonimity allows our true "faces" to appear in all its ugly glory!
Dear Kiazer Souze jan, I complete agree with your one sentence but justified statement. Not only you and I feel the same way; but my grandmother, grandfather, great grandparents on both sides of my family along with our whole nation who have been constantly, atrociously, brutally annihilated since the 1800's and beyond.
Why Hilary why; You are a Mother and a Lawyer,
This was not expected from you.
You don't care for humans living immigrants?
Is your heart made of rock, can't sight and cry!
One day you will regret that will be too late
You already lanced eight million Armenian Hearts!
That will be written in your History with red-blood;
You refused to recognize first century Armenian Genocide!
Don't expect us to forget your deliberate crimes!
As you will be one day a grandmother carrying your grandson!
A Bedouin who cared for Armenians will be respected more than you!
Never be proud of your self that you were one day Lady Hilary
The only wife for P. Clinton who had many lovers and not only you!
We are different nation our men never betray their wives.
Don't expect us to forget your deliberate crimes!
ketses armenian, for your very descriptive reply to our friend drew,
whoever blames the armenians for seeking justice, may something far worst happen to them so they can understand our pain
Thank you Mr. Garen Yegparian for sharing the truth with us. We Kurds and Armenians have not always had good relations, but we have always had some kind of understanding between the two nations, probably because of a common enemy.
Remember Hrant! Freedom for occupied Armenia and Kurdistan!!!
A leader, even of a tiny, desperate nation, must have moral legitimacy, high morale, and resilient spirit. Serj clearly lacks all of the above. Most importantly, he lacks broad-based support of the citizenry at home: they didn’t even elect him. This is the reason why he succumbs so effortlessly to the whims of world power centers. I hate it when commentators in various blogs make childish arguments like “Serj couldn’t refuse signing the protocols,” “Serj couldn’t reject Obama’s invitation to visit the US on April 23rd,” “Serj couldn’t but accept the Madrid principles on Artsakh,” “Serj couldn’t do this,” “Serj couldn’t do that”… Can I ask what Serj CAN do except for wasting people’s money at casinos, creating a notorious clan system in Armenia, and depriving his own people in every way? History knows mnay instances when powerless, destitute nations gained political dividends when their leaders showed strong will and determination. While it is widely accepted that power is the determinant in politics, it is NOT the unique determinant. Moral legitimacy of a leader, too, plays a crucial role in the course of interactions with more powerful players. Serj obviously lacks it, and I’m afraid he’s just being used (especially after dubious elections and March 1-2, 2008 bloodshed) as a puppet in the hands of power centers that advance their economic and geostrategic interests in the broader region.
What a joke this PM of Sweden is. European governments as well as US government have a strong tendency to bow down to Turkish threats.
Another perfect example of that is the recent criminal raids commited by the Belgian, French and Italian governments against the properties of alleged PKK terrorists (read: freedom fighters), who in reality are fighting for the freedom of their people.
The real terrorists are white collar criminals, who wear 10,000 dollar suits, at the expense of exploited resources and child labour (read: slavery) across the globe.
To the US, UN, EU, NATO and all the other similar organizations, thank you for making our world a much better and safer place to live in. The last part was a joke by the way for those of you who didn't get it.
Freedom for Kurdistan and Armenia!!!
With all that we need to do to advance our Armenian causes, the last thing we need to do is to insult our talented and dedicated Armenian youth who are trying to raise our Armenian image and reputation among Americans and others. These individuals who responded so negatively about the praiseworthy Gregorian brothers obviously have wasted their lives---and the wasted lives they have are producing nothing positive about the Armenian people because they're letting their bitterness consume them. Very sad.
Oh boy, some of the comments for me are terrible. So I am going to take a step back and leave you with your problems.
Please do not accuse me with stuff. You dont even know me, nor who I am.
As a final note, remember that everyone is entitled to a just trial. You can not strong-arm (force) someone to accept your thoughts.
Excellent article. I agree with Mr. Nahigian 100%. We need politicians who have integrity and common sense. We need politicians who work for the people of this country and not for special interests. We don't need career politicians whose only purpose in life is to get elected and re-elected. Lets elect Danny not because he is Armenian-American, lets elect him because he has all the atributes of a caring and humane person and not lying, teflon politician.
Good words Brother Raffi (Azadian) you have said it as it is!
Are we wasting too much time on people who simply deny reality?
DEREYAN, I would like to know more about the disqualification due to the Ski Binding. We wife and I work in the Ski industry. Nicole is a Sinior Examiner for P.S.I.A. [ professional Ski Instructors of America] We are not far from San Francisco living at Lake Tahoe. Was adjustment, repair or replacement not permitted? Richard
I dont agree to Mr.Babahan.I m not an Enver and I wont be.Never!! Nationalism is our posion and pan-turkism by the CUP was the beginning of the end.
Enver was the head of the 1913 Coupe D'etat an and their goverment was a junta who organized 1915 Armenian Disaster and lots of disaster in their time.
I dont defend them and I will say the truth all the time.Ethnic cleansing is a fact against non-muslim community and after 1923 TR we lost our jewel with same policy of CUP.CHP (Republican Populist Party)is the following party of CUP and there isnt any differences between them.
Founders of TR are the former CUP members.We need to be face to face with the reality for the brigth future of the nations of our lands.
Former Ottoman citizen Armenians (Diaspora) deserve to die and born and live in their lands with us as the 1st class of the members of our country.
We must not forget that they were living in these lands before Turks and we need to respect each other.
Hey Henrik. I've never commented on this article before. I guess someone (clearly a non-native English speaker) has used my name to make a comment...unless there exists another Yelena Ambartsumian. I'd like to meet her. =)
IN ONE WORD THANK YOU VERY MUCH MR.BABAHAN
YOU ARE A TRULY HUMAN BEING.
LONG LIVE PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
We spent so much of our time answering the turcophiles on this site who with no fault of their own are brainwashed and misinformed by their own government. Why don't we give attention to those who truly deserve it, such as the courageous, strong and inquisitive Turkish journalists in Turkey. I want to share this aticle written by Ahmet Altan in Taraf Turkish newspaper on March 6th 2010:
...
Turkey is not humiliated because that commission approved that resolution with a difference of one vote. Turkey is humiliated because it itself cannot shed light on its own history, has to delegate this matter into other hands, is frightened like hell from its own past, has to squirm like mad in order to cover up truths.
The real issue is this:
Why is the “Armenian Genocide” a matter of discussion in American, French and Swiss parliaments and not in the parliament of the Turkish Republic ? Why can we, ourselves, not discuss a matter that we deem so vital that we perceive the difference of one vote as a source of humiliation?
If you cannot discuss your own problems, you deserve to be humiliated. If you keep silent in a matter that you find so important, you deserve to be humiliated. If you try to shut others up, you are humiliated even more. The whole world interprets the killing of so manyArmenians, -a number we cannot even estimate properly- as “genocide”.
Genocide is a legal term. The massacre carried out by the Unionist largely conforms to the description of that legal term. For Turks and Armenians, the word “genocide” has become an obession. The Turks insist that “it never was genocide” and the Armenians call anyone who says it was not genocide “liars”.
Both sides spend millions of dollars to convince the world that their viewpoint is the valid viewpoint. It is almost as if their mutual efforts have created a “genocide sector”. Why then, can we not speak about this incident in detail?
How many hundreds of thousands of Armenians did the Unionists kill? Why? We claim “Armenians attacked us, that's why we killed them”. Fine, but the “attacking” Armenian gangs were on the Eastern border, what crime did hundreds of thousands of Armenians living elsewhere in Anatolia commit, other than being Armenian?
Can someone be punished purely because of his ethnic origin?
What do you call punishing someone not because they “committed a crime” but because they “belong to the same ethnic group as someone who you say committed a crime”?
This is murder. And to tell the truth, hundreds of thousands of murders targeting the same ethnic group does fall into the category of “genocide”. Unionists committed heinous murders; the cruelty they subjected Armenians to is beyond imagination. Why are we trying to cover up this horrible crime, why are we trying to defend the murderers, to disguise their crimes, why are we squirming to keep truth buried, even at the risk of being humiliated?
The history of every society is tainted with crime and blood. We cannot undo what has been done but we can show the courage to face the truths, to discuss the reality. We can give up trying to silence the world out of concern for incriminating the founders of the republic.
We can ask questions.
And the first question would be “how come we never read about an incident that involves the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in our history lessons?” Even this reality makes the situation “suspicious”. If you are not brave enough to face a truth that happened ninety-five years ago, you deserve to be humiliated. If you struggle to hide an incident that happened a century ago and base how seventy million people relate to the world at large on a “lie”, you deserve to be humiliated.
No one dares humiliate brave people who are not afraid of the truth. If you feel humiliated, you should take a hard look at yourself and what you hide.
And in Turkish click: http://www.taraf.com.tr/makale/10325.htm
Drew,
Yes, some comments may have been horrible ..and you may or may not deserve to get them; however you need to understand that instead of trying to make us understand that we cant fight against a steel machine with trying to force them and just forget about it will not fly.. We as a nation and culture have been fighting for centuries to keep our flame, our identify alive and when a horrible chapter in history happens to our people, you can't and have no right to preach to the same offsprings of those who parished in cold blood.. You have to understand that by sweeping the matter under the rug will never solve the problem.. and trust me, you tell an Armenian to forget about it and move on because it happened 95 years ago will add more fuel to the pain.. hence, you will get comments such as you did above..
Whoever you are, and I don't want to assume because you may be someone who jst happen to read Armenian on-line newspaper (which is highly unlikely), please do some research on the history of the Armenian people and the Armenian Genocide, and you will understand why we are so passionately fighting this till the end...
Robert,
Is it your life goal to waste your time with putting nonsense on the web? You already know how I feel about you and I am sure you have a sense of how the rest of my collegues feel about you.. so why dont' you spare yourself and us by taking a cold shower to wake up from your ugly dream... You WILL NEVER GET RID OF US..and Turkey WILL PAY..
"Armenian" spoke from the heart.. I feel the same way... I can't blame for the passion and anger that came from the the "Armenian" heart... I would have said the same thing...
and PM of Sweden.. well.. i wonder how much money did he get from Turkey to say that.. I hope the Swedish people will rise and kick his sorry looking (he sure looks like someone without a spine) u know what.....
To Admin: In the 9th paragraph "Turkish mythology..." there is a factual distortion that has caught my eye. The last sentence reads as follows: "The myth symbolizes the Turks’ migration from Asia to Anatolia". First of all, there was no such a geographical name. Anatolia is a modern Turkish creation. Seljuk Turks appeared in the Armenian Plateau only in the 14th century, spreading fire and swords over ancient civilizations inhabiting the area, mainly Christian Armenians who have been living on those lands for millennia before the nomadic Turkish tribes appeared. Anatolia must be changed to Western Armenia and Eastern Byzantium. Using this artificial toponym is exactly what the Turks are doing all over the historical, geographical, and demographical literature. They are good at making things Turkish when in reality all historical artifacts in their country are of non-Turkish origin.
To: Katia K
Thank you for posting the writing of Mr. Mehmet Altan. He makes alot of sense and there must be millions of Turks who feel or should feel like he does!
Yeghsapet, please don't think and sound like a white mid age american lady who has never traveled outside her U.S state, we are not by the way putting these bros down. These brothers are doing something good for themselfs, they are choosing the U.S military for the benefits skills/career/college tuition and plus its the closest military to join when your living in the states :-) I just don't see a difference by having 500 armenians in the U.S military or just 50, btw did you know ARMENIA has soldiers in afghanistan ?
Mr Babahan is a decent human being. Most of Turkish public is ignorant about the true history of their country. Hopefully articles published in Turkish press, if allowed by the establishment (Re: article 301), by people like Mr. Babahan, will open the public's eyes to the truth...
My Dear Murat,
Hitler is dead but his terrible legacy remains in large part due to the denial of the Armenian Genocide. With continued efforts of denial, we fear more Hitlers will come to be. Why don't you join us in preventing such historical mishaps.
Mr. Babahan and articles similar to the above article is one of many which a reader can find in the Turkish media now days. If you read pages of Taraf, Radikal, Zaman papers very often articles of this sort pointing to the Armenian Genocide can be found under the shadow of Turkish Panel Code 301. In other words these columnists ,writers , intellectuals to a great deal are jeopardizing their own well being, by writing these articles with the hopes that they are contributing to the reeducation process of the Turkish population about their own history, so that the truth can come out. We all know, what happened to the first Turkish Nobel prize winner Orhan Pamuk's faith when he spoke openly about the Armenian Genocide. Now the question is, how we, the Armenian diaspora are going to build bridges between us and these brave Turkish individuals who are out there on the ground at point zero-not in a foreign land- defending the truth, trying to achive what we are trying to achive the acceptance of the Armenian Genocide. After all at end of the day it does not make a difference how many foreign parliaments accept what happened to our ancestors, we all know our history, as Hrant Dink used to say "that is our pain and we will carry it to eternity". I also know what type of a pain my family suffered during the Genocide, by simply glancing through my families tamparan in the Armenian Cemetery, where family members names are marked symbolically on the tume stone, many of them sharing the same death year, 1915. In my opinion the only acceptance really matters is , when Turks accept it. Then, only then, the healing process can start, since the rest is nothing more than playing politics with the blood of our ancestors!
your words brought me to tears.
Gee, how did this Turk so freely opines on this topic even mentions the "G" word? Where are those who claim one can not openly talk about this subject in Turkey without being jailed and tortured and all... some folk seem to be just allergic to facts.
Raffi, please start the good deeds in Karabag. Then let us visit Palestine, Bosnia, Cyprus, Crimea, Chechneya etc... Do not insult our intelligence by pretending this to be about justice and peace and "never again". Especially reference to a mythical Hitler (never said it, did you know?) quote tops it. Some people are just allergic to facts.
Gayane, thank you for writing nicely. You are right, you should not forget. You should teach and cherish your history. Teach it with love and understanding for your generations to come.
Sosy, I am not 'a worried Turk' and am not "monitoring your websites". This article was on a news engine that I came up on. I am a scholar of political science and history.
Armenian, I am not your enemy. I dont know you. Dont give up, give up, I dont really care. I think it is tiring on the politicians. It is not a political issue to solve these events. They dont know enough to say nay or ey.
My intention wasnt to annoy everyone on this page. I am sorry if I did. I am only trying to approach the subject fairly.
Why is there such a hatred towards Turks? today's turks dont even know much. And today's Armenians think that's all there is to know . . .
Your history is richer than that. Everybody is not out to get Armenians. Everything can be solved people to people, face to face, with love and respect. That's how you communicate your desires and expect a nice response.
Isn't he good? Mr. Babahan's sarcasm is soooo fitting and justified. The Turks claim that Armenians that died during the Genocide were only 300,000... Huh what a laughing matter and how fitting was Babahan's sarcasm. Armenians in 1915 were on or about 3,000,000. in Turkey and after 1919 there were left only 280,000. 1.5 Million Armenians were annihilated from 1915-1923, about 800,000 miraculously escaped including the child orphans and the half dead half alive women and children who were lucky enough to land on Syrian lands after walking the death marches. Then there's a difference of 420,000 Armenians who have also parished during the Armenian Genocide. So yes, when we say anywhere from 1.5 - 2 Million Armenians were annihilated during the Genocide; the numbers are not exaggerated but quite right. Not to mention even before the 1800's Armenians were always being targeted for lootings, killings and kidnappings of children and women.... But like mr. Babahan said; no not the Turks no no never, they wouldn't do such things and may God forbid if they accept their crimes of the first Genocide of the 20th century as the Germans did for the Nazis' crimes of the Haulocaust in 1945.
They are trying to "raise" the "image" and "reputation" of Armenia by serving in the US military?!?!?! Do you really mean this? I''m the waste of life?
Very sad...
Katia Jan,
Thank you for the article... It was great...even though brainless creatures like Ahmet, ira APUSH brother Robert and their kind will take this and turn it around and say something stupid again..
Why do we think Turkey to this day stands firm on the matter? It is because they have instilled the lies so much in their brainless population that even with strong facts, they still believe that Turkey never commited those crimes.... Despite all the facts and world recognition.. Ay mart piti tents PADOSH eres unena... you have to have no shame, no character, no brain, no heart and no common sense to stand in front of the world and yell there was no Genocide...so tell me how can you have an intelligent conversation with these robots?
The answer is very simple: we can never do that... hence, why these shameless and spineless machines will continue to spit their poison until someone comes up with a universal remote control and turns their brainless self off......
Drew,
Everything is political.. . especially this matter... Historians already agreed there was a Genocide... so why is Turkey still push the fact that " No, there was no Genocide"... We already established that if we leave it to Turkey,t hey will deny the history until they are blue in their faces... Hence, why historians around the world had to do the research and come to a conclusion that what Armenians endured was a Genocide.. But Turkey is completely dismissed, and still dismissing this fact.....
Hence, to answer your question as to why we hate Turks so much? We can't hate every Turk but majority fall under the umbrella of " we can't stand" their ignorance, their stupidity, and their lies... we hate the fact that for 95 years they have cheated, lied, and covered up the truth with spending billions of money... why??? hmmm, i wonder if they are trying to buy out the Genocide and buy out history with their dirty money.. hmm.. I believe so.. what do you think? why do you think they spend so much money on politicians to keep this quite? You are a politician yourself.. please share some thoughts on this..why is US soo afraid of Turkey.. Please share your thought on this as well.. I thought US is a super power, and it does not and should not answer Turkey.. and it should be the other way around.. but I don't know what it is.. or maybe we don't know what Obama and the rest of the Presidents know who fell under Turkey's spell and continueously ignored this fact...
You can't have a peaceful communication and normal relations with a country who is built on lies, blood from other nations, and disrespect to the world.. no way that will happen... not with Turkey..
If it is not political, then what is?
Thank you
Gayane
Drew,
You do not know who I am, and neither does any one Armenian on this page and other pages that I write on.
I am no one, I am nobody, but I am the spirit of victims, a son of Armenia, the victims have no voice as I want to be the voice of those who were not given a chance to live.., the voice of the millions of children who were choked, cut down, murdered in cold blood.... the mothers who were killed one by one..., the girls who were raped one by one..., the elderly who were put behind each other and shot... The voice of the land that was stolen, the history of Armenia erased from the map...
Do you hear their them? Could you hear them? The world forgot about them... but we did not.. WE NEVER WILL! never will...!
Do you want to be a friend? defend the victims.. do not sweep crimes under the rugs of governments and modern day globalization.
I really do not care about any politicians. Politicians are worse than prostitutes for they care only about their 1) money, 2) position, 3) reelection. They worry only about their homes, cars, businesses, IRA's and grandchildren education or marriage/divorce issues. There is no justice in politicians.. and please do not bring the "tiresomeness" of politicians to me. Please do NOT tell me "they do not know".. THEY KNOW EVERYTHING.. politicians have entire national archives and tons of historical material and hosts of historians that tell them it was a GENOCIDE.. not only a GENOCIDE, but even the word "GENOCIDE" was made by R. Lemkin (a Polish Jew) JUST to describe the mass killings of Armenians and the horrendous works the Turks were doing erasing an entire civilization from the map of the world... It is the core word, the ethos of the action, and I wish to spit at the fact of every "politician" who ALL KNOW that it was A GRAND GENOCIDE, but yet they do nothing except playing "political football" to score points against each other using the blood and pain of millions of innocents.. They are all cowards, filthy, spineless sellers of blood of innocents, and I could care less if they all died tomorrow, when they never had ONE OUNCE of sympathy or humanity to the millions of innocents.
Our Genocide is different than the other genocides and even the Holocaust. If you want to be friends with Armenians NEVER downplay of equalize our national eternal pain with that of Turks (or subhumans), if Turks had an ounce of humanity, they would not deny the Genocide which is the last chapter of the rampageous murder of an entire race from this earth.
You spoke of being "fair" If you truly want peace, then be fair, and tell any Turk you see to accept the crime of their forefathers. That stain remains on them as long as they don't, the pain stays in our heart as long as they don't, the hatred grows in millions upon millions of Armenians as long as the World is deaf, dumb, blind, indifferent, senseless to us.
There will be NO PEACE between Armenians and Turks, and Armenia and Turkey.. because for Turks, to kill one person, it is "murder".. but to eradicate an entire race from this earth.. well... it is "disputable"..
If anything similar happened to them, I wish to see them act otherwise..
As far as you.. do me a favor.. stop sounding like them..
Dear Drew,
I am a diasporan Armenian who has chosen to move and live in Armenia. I am one of the few who have actually done this. This says a lot about our people, I'm sure. You also say that our history is richer that that (of genocide) - I completely agree. There is a lot that the diaspora has neglected and put on the back-burner simply because the fight for the cause (genocide recognition) has been.. well, how to put it, unFAIR (to use a term you are constantly bringing up). We have had decades of struggle and out cry from all over the world. Had the International Community done its FAIR share in the 50-60s and recognized that there was indeed a calamaty that took place during the first world war; had they punished the perpetrators; had they accepted the facts and the testimonies of thousands of survivors - 2 generations of Armenians would have been spared the painful struggle and would have focused on more positive (cultural, spiritual, scientific, etc) parts of our history - past and current. BUT, since the human race has a very short memory span, we have still a lot to do to remind ourselves that given the ugly truth about the Armenian Genocide; given the unpunished crime, we (humans of the 21st century) are still committing such horrible crimes all over the world, where perpetrators feel the precendent of teh unpunishable crimes and act upon them.
How is that for a political science analysis? I am not being smart - just putting the situation in a global context for a non-Armenian (I assume that you are non-Armenian). By the way, I have made 2 trips to Turkey since my move to Armenia 7 years ago - it has opened my eyes on many issues. It has taken away alot of the hate, but has replaced it with more pain. The Turks of today (in Istanbul, at least) are kind, nice, and beautiful. The government, on the other hand, is deceptive, ignorant and oppressive (towards their own people) - yet the world bows to them.
thanks for not ignoring, thanks for communicating, and thanks for reading my comments.
Ishkhan jan..
Thank you for your concern.. I truly appreciate it.. I was waiting for someone to notice that as well.. I did not put too much emphasis on the matter because the poor souls aka Ahmet, Murat, their brother Robert, and their kinds...have nothing against what we have... their pooch words, their dadark comments, their ankap dzevov xosala means zilch.. and I completely understand what you are saying and how our Armenian Weekly allows such disprespect to be published.. however, i am also going to play the devil's advocate and say that this is a public forum and everyone has the freedom of speech.. no matter how ignorant, disprespectful it is... this may be the weekly's response.. not 100% sure but that is what I would have said.
However, please accept my sincere thanks and appreciation for your kind words.. including Katia, Gary's comments.. even though i may not have the expertise, the knowledge and the insights as my other collegues (again including Katia, Gary and others), I feed upon the love, the unity and the undersanding that we have here...this unity is what makes me go on.. it feeds my soul to never give up and take my word my friends.. i will never give up.. and will fight until we get the justice and recognition that is deserved... no matter how hurtful, and disrespectful these Turks can get...
God Bless you all
G
One more thing....
Yes.. Turks do not know much.. but do not write any lines to disqualify you from being a "scholar".. If you are a "scholar" that is..
Read Turkish history since the time of their appearance from Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, Persian, Kurdish, Arab, Cypriot, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Romanian, Albanian, Georgian, even English, Italian, French Russian and Polish and many other people's perspectives and history books... WHY DO YOU THINK that they all agree about the brutal, bloody, genocidal and murderous past of more than 900 years of Turkish history of blood, with their invasions, forced mass conversions, abductions, destructions and genocides??? Could YOU answer this one tiny question for me?
Or DO YOU THINK that the entire world is wrong and only Turks are right???
If you are a "scholar of political science and history".. do not write lines that are truly childish.. this is not the story of two children who had a fight.
No true scholar writes absolute rubbish like that.
There is an Armenian proverb that says: "Գուցէ ուզեցաւ իրեն գցի հորը, դու էլ կը՞ գցես:" Translation: Maybe he wanted to throw himself in the well, would you follow? open your eyes to see the truth.
Yes, we Armenians know all that there is to know.. ask the other nations.
Thank you Mr. Babahan....from the bottom of my heart...
Well, that facts are that the the CUP had NOT been committing genocide, they would have rounded up and deported every non-Turkish minority in 1915, but they did not. They rounded up only Armenians, and not just from the border w/ Russia, but from all over Anatolia. Was this just some mistake? Had they really meant to round up Greeks, Alevis, Arabs, Jews or Kurds, but accidentally cast the rope only around Armenians? Give me a break. This was the classic definition of genocide...orchestrated by a bunch of quasi-Turks, who remembered the techniques used during THEIR experience during the Spanish Inquisition.
Սիրելի Սասունեան,
Լիովին համաձայն եմ սակայն... բարձրաձայն մի մտածեր: «Իշու ակաջին ձմերուկի կեղեւի մասին չեն խօսիր» Առած:
WHAT YOU ALL GUYS WANT IS FOR TURKISH GOVERNMENT TO OPEN DISCUSSIONS ON 1915 EVENTS.
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THAT: IT IS BY PROCEEDING WITH THE PROTOCOLS BETWEEN ARMENIA AND TURKEY. DISCUSSIONS CAN ONLY BE OPENED IF YOU ARE SITTING ON THE SAME TABLE. BREAKING THE TIES WILL NOT HELP YOUR CAUSE!
so dear Medical Doctor, you begin to write in armenian? i wonder if this is because you have failed to answer the points that i made earlier.
thank you Armenianweekly for letting my comments through.
I am not Armenian, but have lived in Armenia, speak the language well enough, still visit often, and firmly believe in the reality of the Genocide. Never the less, I also like Turkey and have many Turkish friends. I hope for smoe balanced and insightful reporting. Orhan Pamuk, who is unknown in Armenia, is not the only Turk who is honest about the Genocide. I have met many. I will be interested in reading whether or not you have any similar experiences., I conclude with an aside: Mr. Pamuks stand was courageous, and it is ironic that even well educated Armenians are in the dark about this. Can anyone shed any light on why this might be so?
It is such a joy reading Tom's articles. Thanks.
Excellent words Mr. Sassounian....the tribes of Urartu are rejoicing!
Good luck Khatchig,
Will be most interested to read your reports.
To: Ms.L.Kaspariam
Accurate and powerful words for the world to read and listen!
To AB
NO we do not want "discussions" on 1915, that's what Turkey and Turks like you want. We want you to recognize your heinous crimes.
Even sqaure headed people could understand this much. you don't even qualify for one!
Good luck Khatchig. Jim in WA...i don't understand your question but enjoyed your commentary
I live in beautyfull Van city and I love Akdamar Island and Church with great Armenian stone details.I love Armenian people.
AN EXCELLENT ARTICLE MR. HARUT SASSOUNIAN!! I loved it the moment I read the title: "Advice to Prime Minister Erdogan: Continue Denying the Genocide". I also liked the last lines: "Mr. Erdogan, please keep up the good work. Armenians need your kind assistance to pursue their cause until justice is done." I enjoyed reading this insightful and interesting article and look forward to reading more of your articles soon. Thank you.
Hello again GAYene,
you are right. everything is political. you diaspora people are afraid your influence is disappearing and this makes you guys so angry.
by the way, you still dont think of going back to armenia, your homeland? why dont you join the starving armenians in yerevan? do you still live in the usa that was established by stealing lands from native americans?
you cant go back. because it is not the armenians in armenia you care. it is the hatred in you that you want to feed.
Meanwhile, the German government has offered Turks living in Germany 10.000 Euros to leave Germany.
Sweeden's PM should appologize to Armenians for having the lack of courage. I thoght them Vikings would have more courage then they have displayed by their PM's shameful act.
Today from BBC news at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8572934.stm
“Turkey threatens to expel 100,000 Armenians
Turkey's prime minister has threatened to deport 100,000 Armenian migrants, amid renewed tensions over Turkish mass killings of Armenians in World War I.”
He's not just threatening to send away illegal immigrants, its code to release the paramilitaries to attack and kill Armenians across the country.
Mr. Sasounian you are a brave Armenian, “carry on the torch of justice”
There were two approaches to Babahan post.One that does not quite grasp that he does wish to accept facts as they are-but mind you-in a veiled,rather cautious way also, in order that he may not be persecuted in his country.Like someone above pointed out ,nonetheless he plays with the FIGURES,thus downgrading the immensity of the Genocide.Granted he ,in his turkish maneuvring "massals" like style is downgrading it.
However, we must understand that their manners are dfferent than those of ours or any other nation on earth.They simply have adon of being able to by and by "yavash yavash' come to reach to a conclusion that while accepting the irrevocable Crime committed by their ancestors,they seek a way out of it without EVEN MENTIONING THAT THE CULABLE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ACT -AS IS INTERNATIONALLY KNOWN -AND THENCE TO MAKE REPARATIONS/COMPENSATIONS.
NEXT ,OZAN ON THE OTHER HAND IS MORE SPECIFIC TO IT ,HOWEVER FOLLOWING SAME PATH OF HIS KARDASH(BROTHER) THAT ARMENIANS SOULD COME AND LIVE on their ancestors' lands...BUT IN A VERY VEILED FASHION ...TAKE NOTE "their lands"...he writes but..... WITH US !!!!
WITH YOU? WHY NOT WITHOUT YOU BEING THERE. NOW MY RESPONSE:-
THANKS FOR NOTHING!!!
IF WE ARE TO LIVE ON OUR ANCESTORS LANDS,WE WANT IT ALL FOR OURSEVES-LIKE THOSE LADS AD MONASTERIESW CHURCHES ,SCHOOLS WERE BUILT BY US -OUR ANCESTORS,all belongs to us. We are heris apparent.
SO WHY DO YOU WANT US TO "live with you".you are better off WITHOUT US!
Just stay as good neighbours,further to the West.Then of course if there is room for you there.SINCE "mountain turks" now occupy most of those lands,i.e., KURDS!!!
NO ! THESE ISSUES CAN ONLY BE SOLVED WHEN LIKE THEGERMANS YOU /YOUR PEOPLE/YOUR GOVERNMENT ACCEPTS THE REALITY OF GENOCIDE PERPETRATED ON OUR ANCESTORS AND MAKE AMENDS-FOR "BLOOD MONEY"..TO BEGIN WIT..
WE CAN WAIT UNTILL YOU HAVE SOLVED YOUR p r e s e n t PROBLEM WITH ALL THOSE KURDS THERE...COSE TO 20 MILLION?
OR ARE THEY "MOUNTAIN TURKS" AS YET??????
PLEASE ,ETHER COME CLEAN ,STRAIGHT OR ELSE GO GRIND YOUR "SUGAR COATED" OXYDATED AXES ELSEWHERE.
Some "Paremid hyes here' not to say Barzamids still ,easily wis to kiss and make up..
Wake up !!understand the ENORMITY OF THE CRIME,dear compatriots!!!!
Shantagizoum
After all is said re genocides holocausts the worst is that present young turks are brought up with the erronesous idea that they are not culpable for their ancestors..
wrong! the after-nazi Germany succumbed and was beaten the new generation Germans easily accepted and adapted to the fact that their previous government and in extension many a whether nazi or non so had their hands blooded ,thus they were culpable and they ARE AS YET PAYING FOR BLOOD MONEY TO THE JEWS.
Americans also admitted to what they did to the native Americans ad made amends, thus freeing themselves from culpability nightmares...so did others.
Truks,Time to come to terms and get it over with for the sae of your future generations...
g.p
Hey Jim, I don't wouldn't say many Armenians are uneducated regarding Pamuk. He is now worldly renowned writer and his books are translated in more than 40 languages, one of which is Armenian. I am well aware of it, despite leaving in the U.S., but I have many Armenian friends in Armenia who are also well aware of Pamuk.
Turkey itself is a big Genocide. Any minority can become a victim for Turkish sour appetite. Turks have no right to be called a nation. If Turks had the opportunity they would have slaughtered all the Russians and Americans in one day with big enjoyment. Obama should take this under consideration though Putin knows something about that. Who has ears can hear me.
Non-Armenian US commentators are constantly going to Turkey and coming back (or staying there) and writing puff pieces, garbage, and lies, or simply not reporting the truth. I think we are all familiar with the falsehoods spewed out by the NY Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, the Economist, etc.
How does this trip differ from previous trips? What is the motivation of TEPAV (Economic Policy Research Foundation of Turkey) in inviting Armenians to Turkey, and what are the motives of Armenians in accepting? What is to be gained?
WHY? OUR ARMENIAN CRITICS AND SO CALLED "MODERN TURKS" IN THIS COLUMN NEVER EVER MENTIONED ABOUT THIS SO CALLED "WESTERNIZED SERIOUS TURK'S BE CUNNING AND CALLING AN ARMENIAN YOUNG LADY " GAY" ene ? ... --------------------------------------------------------------- FROM OUR BITTER HISTORY WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR MOTHERS' , SISTERS' AND ARMENIAN PEOPLE IN THE PAST WE ARE NOT SURE THAT THIS MAN'S/AGENTS' MANNER IS AT RANDOM OR A "COMMON INHERENT TRADITIONAL CHARACTER" ??
BUT ANYHOW FOR THIS LONG LASTING ANIMOSITY THERE IS ONLY ONE (AND ONLY ONE ) SOLUTION WHICH WILL BRING TWO NATIONS IN HARMONY AND PEACE AND THAT IS WHEN , TURKS FINALLY "RECOGNIZE AND COMPENSATE THEIR ANCESTRAL CRIMES".
Hye Lucine, you've told the truths so well. Too, the media and government leaders in a Turkey, an Israel, a USA, seem to 'forget/omit' the issue of the ongoing Genocides still into today - 2010. Genocides can still occur - who is to step forth and stop Genocides?
If Ottomans, and subsequent Turkish leaderships were brought to face their guilt in the early 20th century - if the Turks had admitted their guilt, paid their reparations and more, ALL the Genocides of innocents that followed shall never have been!
The cycle of Genocides shall have ended. And, despots shall not have gained their convoluted goals via Genocides... they dared not since the civilized nations of the world had joined together to end the cycle of any and all Genocides - wherever, whenever and whomever, whether a foe or an 'ally'... Genocides shall not have continued into Darfur, still, in 2010!
Hence, the next Genocide of innocents, who, when, where? Manooshag
Hey Shnorig, what you can believe is that I am an ARMENIAN who unfortunately had to be born in America because my grandparents were thrown out of the Eden that should have been my birthplace. I'm sure the boys and the family mentioned in this article are fine people. too bad they are enamored of a country that has done so much harm to their Armenian brethren. Go ahead and wave the Stars and Stripes as much as you want. I love Armenians, be we are a naive lot.
Hey Avetis,
"Throughout history the Armenian people have always been the state’s worst enemy. It’s no different today. As long as Armenia fits the narrow, shallow and genocide obsessed mentalities of these pseudo-nationalists"?
What Armenian State are you talking about? The one that has been occupied for hundreds of years? Or the corrupt oligarch one recently created that violates it's own citizen's right and beats and imprisons all who protest against it? Understand that the Diaspora was genocide created and not out of choice of anyone. There isn't one Armenian family on this planet that isn't massively effected by the Turkish decision to liquidate our grandparents and to steal everything and no one is about too or should "just forget it". The reason Sargsyan is alone on this is not because Armenians don't love their country or want the best for it but rather we know he is illegitimate and highly corrupt and even his own people in Armenia know it and live it everyday. This illegitimate idiot almost gave away, under the cloak of secrecy, all Armenian's rights for recognition and justice of the very reason there is a DIASPORA. It is not for him to decide. It is hopefully dead by the sheer luck of the Turkish Karabagh stipulation and by the Armenian courts decision and not any political savvy by him. Also do you think that Clinton is inviting him because of his importance? Hardly, rather because of the sweat, hard work and eventual political might created by the DIASPORA and the pressure it exerts which can't be ignored by any US administration anymore. I do agree he needs to go to the meeting as it would be politically correct but please, your threads are usually out of touch, childish and bitter at best!
Unless you stop your ignorance, you will continue to be the laughing matter on this site. have some shame and morals. Oh but wait.. what am i talking about? people that have connection and practice and worship anything and everything that has any sort of connection to Jihad do not have shame, do not have a heart, do not have a soul... they are all robots working for the same goal.. to terrorize, kill and murder to get what they want.. to control the world...that is what you and your country represent AHMED..... at least I have the balls to call you by your name.. however FAKE that may be....
Hello individual (AHMET) who does not get when someone tells him to stop being stupid and start spelling people's names correctly..
One difference: the only reason the weekly is allowing you to post your ignorant and dumb comments is because we are not Turks.. we do not prosecute the people who voice their opinions freely no matter how stupid they may sound.. even though weekly may be going over board by allowing someone like you to be on here this long but no harm done.. Armenians are civilized people.. we don't believe in killing someone or letting them rot in jail just because they are voicing what it is on their mind.. unfortunately, instead of blowing your ideas off the canon about nonsense on this site.. you might want to start practicing how you are going to sound when your people finally get down to their knees and admit that the Genocide did happen...
Start having your own brains and start voicing your own opinions and not the garbage your govt instilled in you people for years... i am not angry with you sir.. i feel sorry for you.. i really do.. no soul should be this tormented to spend his or her (are you really a man or are you a woman?).. spitting lies and nonsense..especially if those are not even his or hers... oh i feel soo sorry for you...
I keep hearing the same old flawed arguments from uneducated Turks. They keep pointing to Native Americans and other crimes like slavery.
The response from a highshcool kid taking philosophy would be simple in that: (1) two wrongs don't make a right and: (2) America has appologized to the Native Americans and African Americans and has established the Civil RIghts Act of 1964.
As a matter of fact, there is an African American in the Supreme Court of the United States, and if you have forgotten, last time I checked, President Obama is half black.
Good article. However you forgot to include the most important statement by Erdogan about DEPORTING 100,000 undocumented Armenians from Turkey...
Thank you Garen Yegparian
thank you Shantagizoum!!! for your clear headed response, after all if we don't stay clear we will not shine.
Finally, an article that puts the spotlight on the committed atrocities during the Genocide. The effect that true life stories and experiences can have on politicians and communities in general can be duplicated if faces, names, dates and details are attached to them. This is the time where we have to make public all the gruesome details of the Armenian Genocide. Details that the wildest of imaginations could not have concocted. Stories that the survivors of the Genocide struggled to get themselves to tell, and a lot of them opted to cover their faces while telling the shameful acts committed to them and their loved ones. The Turkish leadership's behavior is a classic textbook reaction of a guilty person, whose guilt is so tremendous that he opts to completely shut it out by calling the truth a "lie", "covering it up", and when cornered "start treatening" that you are "humiliating" him and he will need to retaliate, all because he cannot get himselft to face what he has done and the consequences he needs to bear.
We have all tried to further our just cause by speaking for the survivors and victims of the Genocide. It will be more effective to let them speak for themselves by publishing their firsthand testimonies. I strongly recommend that the editorial of the Armenian Weekly publish from now to April 24th one survivor's story per week. The story should not be censored. As a matter of fact we should make sure to make public all the unthinkable things these survivors had witnessed and experienced.
In reality, the only thing that is truly "humiliating" the Turks is what their ancestors have done. The other humiliating factor is the fact that Turkey continues to cover up what its ancestors have done, and even though it calls itself modern it cannot muster enough civility and strength to study the issue itself, acknowledge it and put an end to this "humiliation" by accepting the Genocide and making reparations for it.
BIG THANKS TO LUCINE KASBARIAN WHAT A WRITE YOU ARE, AND PLUS GARY. I ADORED Samvel Jeshmaridian, PhD comment, you out out the righteousness because I said exactly the same if it weren't the Armenians or Greeks meaning who ever lived instead of these people for instance, another Chritian nations would have suffered maybe even worse.
John K. why are for Turkey anyway? You talk this way because you never lived around Muslims to know what the reality is......I hope you learn one day.
Great article as usual Mr. Sassounian.
For a supposedly great modern country, one cannot help but feel embarassed for Turkey for its ridiculously unsophisticated and almost juvenile behavior. They want to punish everyone for recognizing the truth, instead of putting an end to all this by recognizing the truth themselves. Just like you said, the paranoia stems from their fear that they are going to be asked to return everything they have stolen. What they are not realizing however, is that at the pace they are going, recognizing the truth will probably cost them less in dignity, reputation and money in the long run.
In the case of Erdogan, the more he talks, the more he is unveiling the ugly truth about where Turkey has remained. Definitely not modern day material. How can Europe still consider Turkey for the Euro Union is beyond me. And his most recent comment of expelling Armenians from Turkey takes the cake! Turkey's leadership is ages away from being democratic, and it is impeding the progress of the educated and decent segments in its society.
we as Kurds should be all ways respecting Armenian in good way because there is Strong link between to nation,being neighbour thousand years got same brutal enemy even before tatar i should call it Turks come to genocides us we used to be so close to each other u wont know who is Kurds who is Armenian.but time dose change and we did change and our feed back will different day by day against brutal people in middle east i wish u freedom and wish to the end of Turkish bad ideology to occupide other nation
It is inevitable that to propagate and support a myth, legal protections and politicizing of history may not be enough, you may have to resort to other myths to protect and cherish the original one.
Many here continue to claim that this topic can never be freely discussed and Turks who will agree with Armenian interperation of the events will be prosecuted, then tarred and feathered. Ergo, Turks are uneducated and ignorant and that explains their disagreement with the the Armenian claims.
Nothing unique about Babahan article. You can and I have, ran into countless Turks in countless forums and some in real life who have similar views. I do not agree with some of their positions but will defend their right to opine in any way they wish freely. Sure things get heated at times, but there is a variety opinions on this sibject and most are expressed freely unlike in Armenia, France or Switzerland for example. There is no one in jail in Turkey because they said this or that about 1915, and though the nationalists abuse the law to abuse different voices, in the end it does not stick, and there is no explicit law that makes this discussion a crime.
I am sure none of this will stop the efforts to propagate the myth that Turks are brain washed and ignorant and can not even talk about their history. That is what makes a myth a myth, they are impervious to facts.
The real question is, where is the Armenian Babahan, Pamuk or Akcam?
Ahmet, what are you on about?
let's start with a simple lesson in basic history... the fact that Gayane and so many others do not reside in Armenia is the mere consequence of the killings, masacres of the Armenians at the dirty blood stained hands of the Turks... that forced our granfathers to leave their lands to seek refuge away from the murderous turks...
As to why Gayane or anyone else for that matter does not go back to live in Armenia, firstly it is none of your bloody business, however if i am to humour you, i would say, simply because we are stronger like this, we can influence nations, make the memory of our slaughtered grandfathers unforgettable, we simply have more leverage... of course the likes of you would rather have all of us in one place... is it easier to control us like that? impoverish us so we say yes to everything?? I've got news for you... that will not happen as long as the likes of you & the Turkish government refuse to recognise their murderous acts! we will haunt you and expose your bloodstained past from every angle, every part of the world... for everyone to know you for your true ugly selves!
now bugger off! you don't belong here!
Dear Mr. Sassounian, you never cease to amaze me and make me have a big smile on my face. You always had my vote... you have inspired me with your wonderful articles, brainstorms and good thoughts. I love it, continue your plight while we'll continue reading your articles and being inspired by you! Thank you! Nairian
Ara Papian correctly states today that "Just as we were saying, Turkey hasn’t changed."
http://hetq.am/en/politics/a-papian/
So, what are the motives of Armenians in going on this all exclusive paid trip to Turkey and Western Armenia? Self-promotion?
And, what does accepting such Turkish offers say about the ARF's commitment to advancing the Armenian Cause?
Katia, I am honoring your wish by printing here excerpts from the book, "Memories of the Holocaust," written and compiled by Levon K. Daghlian, DMD and printed by Haig H. Toumayan in Boston, Mass., 1976. The following are eyewitness testimonies repeated to Sir Mark Sykes in 1918 Aleppo. They are not for the faint at heart.
1915
May 26: "At the same place, in bright daylight, two gendarmes killed with bayonets Aram Kasbarian and took away his beautiful wife. His six year-old son when crying and screaming on his father's bleeding body, was taken and a long wooden stick was forced through his rectum and in this condition he was shown to the people with the cries, 'Here is your flag...'"
-- Yepraksi Yanikian
May 26: "At the same place [near the pass of Kemakh], several gendarmes took by force the young child Mesrob, five years old, from his mother's arms and nailed him on a wooden frame through his eyes, hands and feet. The he was elevated in the midst of the people with shouts of, 'Here is your Christ and his Cross, let him come and save you.'"
-- Arevalouys Pashalian
June 2: "At Kharput, Prof. Nahigian and Prof. Lulejian were imprisoned. After having been beaten, turtured, the finger and toe nails were pulled off, they were sent out of the city on 22 June with 300 other Armenians, and among them the Armenian prelate. All but Prof. Lulejian have been massacred. He has escaped to America."
-- Armenoush Nahigian
June 2: "At Kharput, Prof. Moujganian was imprisoned and after having been nearly killed by beatings for ten days, his head was crushed in an iron ring."
-- Armenoush Nahigian
June 3: "Before reaching Kemakh, at the time when a pregnant woman was delivering her baby, a gendarme came in the tent and pulled the baby out of the woman's womb and with his dirty hands and tearing it in two with the bayonet, said, 'See, now you are the mother of two.'"
-- Yepraksi Yanikian
Juen 5: "Ohan and Nerses Vartabeds and fifteen other priests were nearly beaten to death in the prison of Tokat. After their eyes were taken out and their noses and ears were cut off, they were burnt with kerosene in the yard."
-- Louisa Jamgochian of Tokat
June 12: "At Kharput, Prof. Tenekejia was hung head down in a Turkish water closet."
-- Armenoush Nahigian
July 4: "At Kirk-Geoz, twenty-five women and girls were pushed into the water and drowned. They had been without a drop of water for 12 hours."
-- Veronica Keosheyan of Sivas
July 25: "Fried in the heat of the desert, we drank the urine of my daughter Victoria."
-- Veronica Keosheyan
July 31: "Beyond Veranshehir, I drank from a well which was full of dead bodies. I had not drunk water since two days..."
-- Arevalouys
August 10: "At Furunjular, the women of our party were forced to throw away their sucklings. About 200 infants were left there alive. The mothers could hear their babies crying for fifteen minutes and the cry of the mothers echoes on the plain for several hours."
-- Helene Iknadiosian
Sept. 5: "At Kizlar, near Ourfa, the Turks slaughtered my two song, three and six years of age, and threw them to the dogs of the village."
-- Haiganoush Shahinian
Sept. 10: "In the boat on the Euphrates, I saw a gendarme knock out the teeth of a woman for the gold she had in her mouth."
-- Aghavni Boghosian
Aug. 30: "Between Ourfa and Sourroudj, I saw a baby suckling his dead mother's breast."
-- Helene Iknadiosian
Sep. 12: "Near Ourfa, Elizabeth Demerjian was badly raped and her two sons slaughtered before our eyes. Anna, Jarmon and Barkev, three girls belonging to the Taptapian family were raped and sold to the neighboring villagers."
-- Hayganoush Shahinian
1916
March 5: "Being drive from Bab southward, I saw a girl 12 years of age taken and raped by nine gendarmes in daylight behind the bush within thirty yards from us. She was left for dead."
-- Khatchadoor Karabajakian
Johny, your irrational/self-destructive rhetoric makes you sound like a pathetic CIA mouthpiece. Had you stopped your US State Department encouraged obsessions with our so-called "oligarchs" and your diaspora induced obsessions about Turks and the genocide you may have realized that Armenian history goes far beyond the Turkish era and our "oligarchs" today are mere boyscouts compared to the bloodthirsty and corrupt oligarchs that run Washington's empire today. When all is said and done, it was precisely due to naive, ignorant or paid-for individuals like many of you here that Armenian kingdoms were never very powerful. More Armenian rulers were deposed/betrayed by Armenians than by foreigners. I suggest you put down your CIA fact book and start reading real history. You people prove beyond doubt that we Armenians are our worst enemies. Like I keep saying: Armenia need political evolution not a CIA sponsored revolution. And Armenians maybe brilliant in business, academia and the arts - they remain total idiots when it comes to understanding the political world...
PS: Although it might not be saying much, Mr. Sargsyan is our best president yet, Armenia is progressing forward in all categories and Armenia's geopolitical status has never looked better. But again, one must have a brain to realize all this.
Well, well, it's always a delight to see Vartan Gregorian helping Azerbaijan, isn't it?
Gosh, dirt-poor Azerbaijan, spending billions in oil and gas revenue on weapons to be used against Karabagh/Artsakh, surely does need help from the Carnegie Corporation, to advance - what's the term Carnegie used? - its "civic and cultural identities", huh?
Wait, let me take out my checkbook now and send a donation to Carnegie, OK?
Maybe we can get more Armenians who have "made it" to get the organization they work for to give money to our adversaries, huh? I wonder how much money Carnegie gives to Turkey. Now that's a country, Turkey, struggling with - what was Carnegie's term for it gain? - its "cultural identity," after having wiped out seweral million indigenous Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. The poor Turks just don't know who they are anymore after such a massive cleansing.
Let's pour a few more billion dollars of our tax dollars down the Turkish rathole so they can find out their "identity."
That's what I like about Armenians who have "made it", be it in corporate life, charitable organizations, or the media - they are so generous in giving of their time, money, and support to our adversaries and, in the process, cutting our own throats.
Why don't we Armenians just commit mass suicide and get it over with once and for all? I have an idea: let's hold a banquet to honor more famous Armenians who have no Armenian identity.
Kasbarian said what needed to be said. Wonderful job.
Apres Hayasdan...
et apusha says things like to educate us... chi imanum vor menq petq chunenq sovorelu.. et inqna vor piti sovori.. he thinks by throwing something stupid out there will stick.. but he knows I will not allow it.. inqa apusha...
Togh xosa.. i will shut him up...yev mersi qo commenti hamar.. that will shut him up too...
G
Latest news…,
Turkey pulled it’s ambassador from Antractica,, becasue the Antarctic Government recognized the Armenian Genocide.
To Erdogan
Hayde bakhalim! let's see you keep your word. Try deporting them..
To: Ms. Lucine Kasbarian....I have read about many of the trocities but what you have described here is very heavy! Thank you for the history details and warning us that we need a strong make up to read this!
How can people claimed these atrocities to simply be war or "civil war' or
' tragedies. How can deliberate, systematic, murder be called other than just that? It is sickening! I believe the more we expose this history, as painful as it all is, the more the rest of the world shall realize just what went on in those dark days!
Q: do you know how and at what time in history our names have come to include Turkish front ends? Like I am told that 'malkhass' is the large scissor usually used by tailors on their cutting tables. I am assuming that it is Turkish term? Were our names in earlier times like the ones in the Bible? e.g. Joseph of Aramathea, Saul of Tarsus or Jesus of Nazareth etc. indicating whare the person was from??
Yes, he lives up to his name! Jeshmaridian...he tells the truth & nothing but the truth!
Khatchig you are a brave man.May God keep you safe,specially those days, who reminds us 1915.
Gayane jan,
You are a proud Armenian, with one of the oldest and most beautiful Armenian names, and you are doing what many others are shying away from by standing up for the memory of our murdered ancestors and demanding justice for the most heinous of crimes, in a world where speaking the truth and fighting for victims rights are out of fashion.
What the Ahmets, Robers and Murads are not realizing is that you may lie or distract from truth but scientifically you cannot change the actual truth. It is frozen in time immemorial. Even when you think you have covered it up, in reality it will always be there in front of God.
Sorry Robert, my leaving the "t" from your name was an honest mistake, I just realized it. Do not think that I got inspired from Ahmet.
Sorry again.
Shnorhakal em Katia jan for your words...
I am a proud Armenian and will always be just like you and my other dear collegues on this site... my name has been given to me to live on my great grandmother's memory and anyone that intentionally misuses it or disrespects it will burn in hell...
hence why people like Ahmet and his kind are afraid of.. they can't swallow their pride of being an offsprings off Bloody Turkey... which is why they have to do and say anything to stir the story away from the truth.. I LAUGH at them...
and you made me laugh Katia jan with your "missing t" comment..that was classic..and hillarious... :)
Sincerely,
Gayane
To Hayasdan:
Please do not cheat yourself.
Sitting in your big villa in L.A., please do not pretend to be stronger like this.
Go to Armenia and see how they are living spend one week with them. See which kind of problem they have.
By the way who si trying to control who? You can be in one place or 10 places nobody in Turkey cares. What Armenians from the the US do is the least of the Turkey's problems.
I am very curious to know what do you expect to achieve with such hatred filled attitude.
Dear Lucine,
First of all I want to congratulate you on your work and thank you for your original article.
Secondly, I cannot thank you enough for responding to my recommendation to Armenian Weekly, and taking the time to list "some" uncensored Genocide survivor testimonies. (They should also show up in actual articles)
The Americans, English and Swedish are hearing about their government resolutions that want to acknowledge the 1915 atrocities as Genocide, but they are also being bombarded by claims that these resolutions are not politically beneficial for their countries, and that Turkey is getting humiliated and calling its Ambassadors back.
What is missing from the picture is the most central part of the story, which are the atrocities committed to regular citizens by a government. The Americans and Europeans should be informed about the details, so that they understand the enormity of the crime, and see why this crime needs to be acknowledged. Most of us Armenians grew up with these stories from our grandparents, but the American, European and even Turks are not fully aware of the details. What better way to inform them but to splatter all these testimonies all over the Internet. The countries of the world will not feel our pain, unless we fully share it with them.
My hope is that the "informed" Turks will also see that by hiding and denying the atrocities committed by their ancestors, they are choosing to be complicit with them. When Europe demanded that the Young Turks and the officials who perpetrated the Armenian Genocide be brought to Justice, Turkey was cornered and court-martialed and even sentenced to death a good number of the culprits. Ataturk called the Armenian Genocide a "Shameful Act" that will never be repeated. What followed though was a very well planned system of cover up and denial. First the Turkish alphabet was changed from Arabic to Latin. (Most of the documents from the Genocide time and the Court-martials were written in Arabic). Next, the "Surname" law was enforced in the early 1930s, where everyone's last name was ordered be changed. The "ians" of the last names of the surviving Armenians where either taken out or the Armenians were asked to use the name of their craft or profession as their last name. The years from 1914 to 1923 were blurred in academics, and the schools were ordered not to cover any of this. During WWII (1940s) another round of massacres took place under the disguise of a "Capital Tax", which taxed Armenians, Greeks and Jews with amounts that were made purposely outrageous so that they will not be able to pay them. In return, they were sentenced for evading the tax, taken to labor camps from which they never returned.
In other words, we have the Genocide itself which needs to be recognized and dealt with legally, and we have the active cover up that followed it that needs to also be addressed and dealt with. In fact, not only should the Turkish government make reparations for the lives, properties and lands lost, it should also make reparations for all the illegal laws it created to further deplete the Armenian community, and all the inheritance, assets, farming lands and other economic benefits that it has been sitting on and preventing the descendents and beneficiaries from getting.
Reading the above testimonies one can only come up with one accurate adjective to describe them and that is "barbaric". When we use this term however, the uninformed Turks are taking offense and calling it racism. That is another reason why these testimonials with all their gruesome details need to be exposed for all to see. Turkey will be cutting its losses short by acknowledging the Genocide like Germany has, and by distancing itself from its ancestors, instead of “humiliating” itself by trying to cover up an internationally known crime, that the word “Genocide” was specifically created to describe.
AB wrote: "What Armenians from the the US do is the least of the Turkey’s problems."
hAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA HAAAA ... (serious now. )
What is you next practical joke? Are you reading newspapers? Oh I forgot , you can't read!!! hmmmm!
WE are full of hate? I tell you what.. Once upon a time there was something about you Turks that I liked, but you have spent it...
To the Editorial Board,
Hello! What happened to the piece which I had written and submitted? Are you people back to that stupid censorship and deletion game once again? How sad!!! How about stopping this childish game once and for all and enjoy the first ammendment!
Very well said Ms. Kasbarian. You echoed my very thoughts. The US and Israel have continuously denied to utter the word Genocide or pass a resolution in their parliaments for 95 years not to offend, to upset or to "humiliate" the denyalist Turkey; and what about the humiliation of our 1.5 million martyrs who died the most degrading and disrespectful deaths? The US media for 95 years shuts us out of their media, the Jews can speak all they want about the Haulocaust but we are left in the cold, they said later to us, as they only wished to speak about their losses but not anyone elses - they won't let us speak about our huge human losses and our reparation rights. Thanks for putting the Armenian Genocide under the rug for the world not to hear about it, the cycle of Genocides are continuing until today, thus the Armenian Genocide has not ended. Turkey's denying about the Armenian Genocide is the beginning of the next Genocide. Something that it is already happening right now in Turkey, as Erdogan wants to expel 100,000 Armenians from Turkey. He wishes them to walk the marches into oblivion as they did in 1915 when the Turkish government gave orders to the women and children to walk to the Mesopotamian deserts, when the world have known it to be the death marches.
Thanks for your post Dr. S. Jeshmaridian; What a truthful expression of thoughts. If it wasn't for Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians; the same would have happened or could to the Russians and the Americans.
As far as testimonials from Leslie Davis from Kharpert in June and July of 1915, I have already put it out in one of my posts in the Armenian Weekly about 2-3 weeks ago.
THE ARMENIAN PAMUK -PLEASE DON'T RATE HIM WITH THE OTHER TWO,BABAHAN AD AKCAM...
IS ON THE WEB SITE -just with one very hsort concise info-go to
-www.armeniancafe.com and then click on ARTEMIS post...THERE!! you will see what the Armenias accomplished for the turks!!!
ALL ARMENIANS SHOULD VISIT AND SEE THAT "CLIP"...
Robert, How dare you call the Editors of Armenian Weekly doing childish games??
May God forbid, if I had to go to a turkish newspaper and post half of the posts you trash out in here; they would either not let me post from the ghettgo or they would ban me soon after. Be very thankful that the editors of Armenian Weekly are extremely democratic in nature and have given you ample rights as anyone of us would have, and sometimes even more.
As usual, the strong willed and knowledgeable men & ladies (Katia, Gayane & others) are fully expressing their views here. Thank you!
There is enormous pain, anger and impatience with this whole blood soaked mess! After all 95 years is a long long time. We are not here to be hateful but to pass on the truth of history! And thanks to people like Ms.Kasbarian, and others, the facts, while very painful, are being told. And we shall stay strong & tell our painful story...until justice & restitution come about!
The fact that most Turks cannot even read/study their own history is sad :( We also know that Kemalists changed the alphabet on purpose. Hoping the world would forget their murders. This is totally unfair to the average people living today. We, on the other hand, have always been able to read and study our history of thousands of years. We are way ahead on facts.
So the Turks (let's not forget that many of whom are actually descendants of the stolen children anyway) are at a huge disadvantage + to this deliberate modern day misguidance...what chaos! These folks don't need to be hateful to talk to us the way they do! They simply are ignorant...they are simply at a very deep disadvantage. One cannot have an opinion about anything unless one has knowledge of the truth. We can't call them liars if they don't know the truth. A liar is one who knows the truth but chooses to cover it up...hide it.
I always ask myself and encourage others to say "hey, if I don't know? do I want to know?" If I answer... yes...there is hope for me. If I answer no...I am hopelessly in trouble! (I wish my young daughter would read my words). Mirrors are actually useful tools. We should use them often!
And, we also know Jesus did say "know the truth, and the TRUTH shall set you FREE!' The views expressed here are very useful necessary ...the question is do the people who don't know? want to know the truth? Our ancestors prayed for their murderers and we can too. This is what my grandpa used to do!
I didn't say this was easy!
G
For the same reason there are Armenians all over the world, the result of Turkish policy of subjecting the Armenian nation to GENOCIDE!!!!! My ancestors lived around muslims in Turkey and I have to live in the US as a result. Is there justice in the world? Anywhere?
I wish one day I to will be able to go and reclaim my ancestral home in Dortyol, in Cilicia...
To Robert,
How about stopping this stupid and childish Turkish game once and for all, and enjoy the freedom of accepting the truth just like Germany?
Dear Harut,
It goes without even saying,but I sall repeat again .Youare our ex-offcio spokesmanin Diaspora.Hopefully will be so affirmed officially,when ,your others' wish for a Re-rganized Diaspora take centre-stage.Your Position? again without saying our Press/Media Rep.and Spokesman.Your intervews on USArmenia T.V.are very much of interest as well and always to the point.And pursueing the day by day developments on the Armenian-Turkish scenario. If I may make a "suggestion"..it is to als remind all that we should demand "Blood Money",prior t the other confiscated lands ,proeprties Monasteriesd/churches scools destroyed and our ancestors riches looted..
This, is what is much more feasible,witness the Germany's cash payments to the Jews as for ,and repeat "Blood Money".After all this is a huge precedent and aso the Insurance companiesalso agreed to pay for the deaths of Armenians in the Ottoman Turkey.Indeed ONLY to those who had somehow procured/purchased Life insurance.
Which is aother proof that those people did not die of "natual causes" or disappeared in thin air...
Land issue is a bit more complicated.No, not for us,we know where our ancestors lived.But for republic of turkey, since they are up against yet another very thick problem, that of the not too long ago repeatedly dubbed as "mountain turks".Now calling them by ther real name.... KURDS.Aroud 20 million?
Best Rgds.
G.P.
Ahmet
Have you been to Armenia? Not only I doubt it.., but suggest you start acting your age, senile!
Speaking of "starving Armenians", I CONGRATULATE you for finally coming out of Turkish hybernation and across a poster that has those wordings "Starving Armenian". But that is from 1915-1919.., and guess WHO WERE the reasons for their starving? Could you? nope! because for a Genocide denier even if you had a brain transplant, your body would reject the brain.
Finally do not call anyone 'gay' like you did to Gayane. If you want to see some gays, go to Taksim in Istanbul where the majority of Turkish gay bars are. Some reading about the life of Ataturk would not hurt either to know who he was...
Nairian, would you post the link that will lead us directly to the page where we can find the excerpts from U.S. Consul Leslie Davis' eyewitness accounts? Thank you.
Hye Lucine, as I had mentioned in my 'leave comments' the word Genocide, although it is meant to 'describe' the 'elimination' of the Armenian nation - I, too, was using the more descriptive methods of the Ottoman Turks and their subsequent Turkish leaderships in their inhumane methods of slaughter - including bandinados, beating the soles of the feet of the victims until they were bloody - then exploded - then death... Yes, the descriptions of the inhumanity of the hordes out of the Asian mountains. Today, still manifested is the Turkish pursuit to 'eliminate' the Armenians - victims of their Turkish Genocide - still into today, 2010.
The Turks needed these years to weaken the Armenians determination to seek justice and reparations - Turks planned in these years the Armenians shall have become lost across the nations of the world, integrated, and thus their Genocide shall have never come to light - never brought the Turks to face their guilts to the Armenians and more.
Well, hello Turkey... the world knows and recognizes your Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenians 1915-1923, and more, denials by Turks today - 2010 - still! Manooshag
Kevork and in extension ARA.Papian,
I don't wish to sound sarcastic,but ...let us say,rather I like to say that I kid...
Perhaps they wish to have another go-like the previous ones(...) that thought Young Turks declarations as to "brotherhood<Liberty and Freedom etc., to find out if the New Generation 'Young Turks" have changed..
Now seriously, it may be so for very few limited count ones..but even -if more than few-How can they be considered-as a whole- upgraded,emancipated and standing up against their present day Militay Junta9s and/or governmen ts-here hint is to Great Turkey.Or perhaps tagging along with Emericans they have the wrong notion that previously referred to Junta et al are als emancipated Pamuks, or the ultra nationlists.
Wanna have another try? or is it what Kevork mentions up above/
Sometiems our dear Young editors/politicians totally set aside the realities-do not follow day to day developments (see above 100,000) and such "Chantage-like" references..or even read harut Sassounian like authors-spokesmen...
Whatever..hope they enjoy turkish lokums -baklavas ,thus making their hosts happy,commenting on these niceties as well. However, if other motives have prompted the to be there ..such as reporting of a SUDDEN CHANGE IN great Turkey's stance twards the "protocols,like just having decided to sign them or ..even soften up a little w/rgd to Genocide REcognition(with some provisions .you know turkish style ..piano paino,"yavash avash'...then Let us wait and see as a Brit would say...
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
G.P.
VAY Mernem qo et lav xosgerit Armenian jan..
NICEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE... shat lav asetsir.. APRES...:)
I could not have said it better than that....
AB,
I said this before but i am saying it again.. don't be as stupid and ignorant like your collegues Amhet who is a bit slow and his fake "brother" Robert, Muhmen, muhmad, amhud or whatever your names are.. you all sound the same.. do you guys even know how funny your comments sound to us and many non Armenians who actually read them as well? please stop..save yourselves some embarassment...
I echo Armenian's comment on: ONCE upon a time Armenians enjoyed living and respected their Turkish neighbors but those days got swallowed by the greedy, cold blooded, jealous, unintelligent, scared and two faced Turkey and its citizens...who could not keep their tails between their legs and go on with their small lives....they tried to be lions when in reality they were small cats.. they caused all this pain, killed so many people and scarred their name and existance for mere fear of being overshined by the most prominent and intelligent minority at that time...Armenians.. i feel sorry for Turks.. ....
Gary jan...
That was a very true comment you just shared with us..
I know that your daughter will grow up to be as intelligent and patriotic as her dad.. I just hope that when I find my husband and have children, then they will also grow up with the ARmenian heritage and pride instilled in them.. with knowledge of our history .. to learn and understand what their ancestors endured and what our people had to go through for centuries..even though Turkey did not make the matters easy and caused all this hatred and animosity between our nations, i want my children to distinguish between being hated vs being disadvantaged.... As you said Gary, not knowing the truth and history, how can one lie? Not knowing the facts and the history, you can't truly hate them.. but you can feel sorry for them and try to educate them as much as possible... but the question remains: are they willing to be educated???? that is the million dollar question.. however, either way, I want my children to grow up knowing education is the key to success.. and try to educate as many as possible even if they face resistance, anger, hatred and ignorance from the Turks and anyone else who believe Genocide never happened..... ......
This task is definintely not easy...I agree with you..
G
I am reading Yair Auron's "Banality of Denial - Israel and the Armenian Genocide." You can go to Books.Google.com and find it for free and read it.
Actually, I was unaware that this debate about the Armenian genocide was going on in Israel. I came across it quite by accident while reading Haaretz.
I have relatives who were survivors of the Armenian genocide. I also have religious relatives in Israel. Therefore, I know the Armenian genocide and Holocaust both happened.
Because my family escaped the Russian Revolution and ended up in Turkey for a while, they were aware of what happened to the Armenians. My grandfather was a menschevik; I guess dashnak was another party.
I am reading too the terrible tragedy of the white Russians who escaped Russia and their brief stay in Turkey. There are pictures in the book on the history of Robert College of the Russian Choir and Russian dancers, a new addition to their collection of people. Many formerly rich Russians were cleaning tables and washing dishes at Robert College.
I was really surprised to find out the problem of genocide denial in Israel. My first reaction was that survivors of the Holocaust wouldn't do that. However, I will have to read the book to find out why this surprising event has taken place and whether any efforts to remedy it have taken place. I see another book written by the author discusses his attempt to remedy this in the educational system in Israel.
In the meantime I sent books and pictures I have to the Armenian Genocide Museum.
I guess I too am amazed that I found remnants of the dashnak party, although I don't know too much about it. I'm a menschevik. I haven't found the remnants of the menschevik party. I wish I could piece together the story of my family from the Russian side, but that is harder than putting together the story of my Armenian relatives. People want to hear the story of the Russian Revolution I guess, but I don't know if I can put the pieces together from my family's perspective. It probably is an interesting story. My relative said it is like "Doctor Zhivago. "
"Mr. Erdogan, please keep up the good work. Armenians need your kind assistance to pursue their cause until justice is done.'
I could not say it better myself. Actually, I think I did. The silly and childish responses of the Turkish governments to theatrics of a bunch of politicians and hate lobbies that feed them, just keeps fueling the frenzy and gives meaning to the existence of the genocide industry.
Ոչինչ Գայանե ջան
For Gayane:
Even if this room is anonymous for the most part, I believe we are very much united at heart. It feels like we have been friends for decades?
Gayane jan...I wish you a compassionate, loving and God fearing Armenian husband & many children.
My wife is not Armenian (should I be ashamed?) she is a Mennonite and her ancestors came to Canada, from the Ukraine, in the 1800's. Later, the Russians slaughtered some innocent Mennonites because they speak a German-Dutch (Low German) dialect and therefore were considerd the enemy during the revolution!
My daughters Ankine & Larissa do not speak Armenian. They are young & beautiful and very much Armenian looking! If they complain about their mother I simply say "this is the best mama I could find for you". They settle down and think!
I do my part to bring our history to my daughters as well as to all my Canadian friends. I do not encourage hate but I feel it is important for people to know their ancestry!
G
There are two very important essentials when one is posting on these kind of posts, being respectful to others opinion regardless of how you may disagree with their position, and second be truthful about facts when posting them.
Let's talk about the latter first: How can one claim that, there are no laws in Turkey which is barring people to express their feeling freely about the Genocide when TPC 301 is still alive and part of the panel code? How fast did you forget prosecutions of Hrant Dinks, Baskin Orans ,Orhan Pamuks, Taner Akcams, Elif Safags and many others with this law because of their stand on the subject of the Armenian Genocide? How soon did you forget when so called lawyer Kerincesiz ( currently under arrest due to Ergenekon trials) and company, threw everything in their pocket to the faces of the above individuals when they were entering to the court room to attend their court hearings under 301? How soon did you forget when deep state put a gun in the hands of Ogun Samat and shot Hrant Dink from his back at the prime of his life just because he was speaking the truth and nothing more, even though he loved that country as much as any Turk? Come on, let's talk about the truth , granted that, things have improved dramatically last few years in Turkey, including speaking about the 1915 due to freedom of speech, but pretending that even today, everything is openly being discussed in Turkey is not being fort coming to say the least , with the hopes that some of us do not really know what is going on over there . As far as where Armenian Akcam's Pamuk's and Babahan's are, it appears that you already forgot Hrant, but even now, if you are a serious reader seeking the truth you don't need to look any further that your backyard in Turkey to find the Etiyen Mahcupians, Mark Esayan's, Sevan Nishanian's. Everyday they are writing their honest opinion in Taraf, Zaman, Agos newspapers. But the real question in reality is, are you ready to listen and evaluate what they are saying and dig into your own history to learn what really happened in 1915, or you rather to keep your knowlede in the context of Emin Oktay's tarih kitabi aka masal kitabi? Hopefully one day you will seek the truth, and then only then, when you are posting any of these sites again, you will talk about reality as is, and as it was in 1915, and not in the context of the reality you are made to believe.
As far as myinger here , you can call me"barzamid" because of the 'hate free" future I like to envision for Turks and Armenians. I take that as a compliment, since I rather to be called a "barzamid" by those, who can not understand the freedom and comfort a "hate free" future can bring to the next generation of Armenians and Turks, rather than being called a "compatriot" by those who pride themselves in the complexity of their hateful thoughts . Allthough as Hrant Dink once said "we Armenians, will carry the pain inflicted to our ancestors by the genocide to eternity as a Cross on our shoulders" , but imagine for one moment how nice things can be for the Armenians and Turks if one day we can understand each other again, accept the history as it happened in 1915 and get ridof the hate feeling, and dance a 'shurch bar" and a "cifte terli" both at the same time, at the same place somewhere in Anatolia. That will be the day, when this generation of Armenians and Turks will be able to say that, we are handing this world better than we found to the next generation!
Hi
First I apologize for my English if I am unclear about what I write. The primary reason why I send this message is to understand what happened in the past. I am not on anyone's side. I am a Turkish ( as a citizen, and an Arabic in race living in Adana) I have been interested in history for about 3 years. Here are some facts I have no doubt on:
1) I do not trust history classes taught in Turkey, books are not telling the truths unless you spend time and read articles.( I am sure this is the same for other countries)
2) (There is no written proof about it, my grandmother and grandfather and his father were the ones who told me these) There is a big tree in Akkapi, a neigborhood in Adana. My grandfather's grandfather was killed together with everybody in that neighborhood by Armenians and French under this tree.
3) So many innocent Armenian were killed in the past.
Am I angry because my ancestors were executed by shooting, no. This happened, I cannot change anything. Is it understandable to send innocent people ( enough to think of babies and children) to death, absolutely not.
I dont know if you read Turkish history, it mainly says that Kemal Ataturk was the best person ever, the group he was in was called Ittihat and Terakki which decided deportation. This group is still a huge illness in Turkey causing unbelievable troubles (this is itself a very big subject to discuss)
It is highly possible to be manipulated by media if you do not stop and think and make a little but a serious search. So I am very picky about what I read , hear and so on.
There is a deep debate among all writers in Turkey, some claim that it was a genocide we have to face, some believe it is a lie made by Armenia so that they can control us politically in the world.
But I am just a person who really wants to learn the reality.
1) If they really want to find murderers, why do they not talk about all victims. Not only Armenian people but also many other Kurdish, Arabic, Turkish people died. Is it not something weird?
2) The decisions made in parliaments serve for what? Can we really rewrite the history in parliaments? No matter what happens, people will have to deal with the results , not politicians.
3) Does the world know anything about our culture, religion, hospitality?
4) Why do the government of Turkey ( mainly Muslim people against to Ittihat and Terakki ( or CHP)) still try to hide the reality?
Thanks
Recent stories from my clinic on Armenian genocide
The Al Shamari tribe in north of Iraq saved many dying children. One of them was found in river Khabour, so they named him Khabour.* They describe him as a blonde-haired person with blue eyes. His grandchildren say he looked different from our granduncles. He married from the tribe.
There are many stories that people are still narrating from the Al Anzi and Al Dhufayri tribes. They saved Armenian Children in the middle East the Gulf, and Arabia, brought them up to become part of their families. They say they are proud to have Armenian origin.
To understand the culture of Arabs and their dignity, they called the girls Merriam, which means Mary, as they were Christian and they believe in Merriam being mentioned in Qur’an; mother of Essa (Jesus). It was easier for them than Armenian names, which is difficult to pronounce and write. The name Merriam is heartily and holy in use among Muslim Arabs and Iranians, as frequent as Mary among Christians.
ARMENIAN,
SORRY IF I AM NOT READING ARMENIAN NEWSPAPERS.
WHAT I MEANT WAS THAT THE US ARMENIAN ARE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THE TURKS HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO BUT THINK ABT THE ARMENIAN. AND THAT THEY SPEND THEIR TIME COMPLOTING ABT THE POOR LITTLE ARMENIAN.
US SENATE RECOGNITION IS A POLITICAL ISSUE, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PEOPLE ON THE STREET.
GUYANE,
FIRST, I AM MAYBE IGNORANT, BUT AT LEAST I THINK CLEARLY AND MY JUDGEMENT IS NOT WEAKENED BECAUSE OF MY HATRED. SECOND, HOW DO YOU KNOW MY ORIGIN? MAY BE I AM ARMENIAN. YOU ARE SO FULL OF YOUR IDEAS THAT YOU CAN CONCEIVE THAT THERE ARE SOMES WHICH MAY HAVE LESS EXTREMISTS IDEAS, SOMES WHICH UNDERSTOOD THAT DISCUSSIONS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO TOWARDS SOMETHING.
100 COUNTRIES CAN ADOPT DECISIONS. WHAT IS IT GOING TO CHANGE?
I DO NOT KNOW VERY MUCH THE ARMENIAN PRESIDENT, MR SARKISYAN, BUT HE AT LEAST UNDERSTOOD THAT THE ONLY WAY TO MOVE SOMEWHERE WAS TO SIT ON THE SAME TABLE.
Ghazaros jan, I didn't save it in my files, however perhaps the Editors of Armenian Weekly can find it for me from my previous posts and post it here again. However the late Leslie A. Davis' book is on Amazon.com at http://www.answers.com/topic/armenian-massacres
"The Slaughterhouse Province: An American Diplomat's Report on the Armenian Genocide, 1915-1917 (Hardcover)
Massacres
Mass Burnings
Eitan Belkind was a Nili member, who infiltrated the Ottoman army as an official. He was assigned to the headquarters of Camal Pasha. He claims to have witnessed the burning of 5,000 Armenians.
Lt. Hasan Maruf, of the Ottoman army, describes how a population of a village were taken all together, and then burned. The Commander of the Third Army Vehib's 12-page affidavit, which was dated 5 December 1918, was presented in the Trabizon trial series (March 29, 1919) included in the Key Indictment, reporting such a mass burning of the population of an entire village near Mush. that in Bitlis, Mush and Sassoun, "The shortest method for disposing of the women and children concentrated in the various camps was to burn them. And also that, "Turkish prisoners who had apparently witnessed some of these scenes were horrified and maddened at the remembering the sight. They told the Russians that the stench of the burning human flesh permeated air for many days after."
Suffocation
Trabzon was the main city in Trabzon province; Oscar S. Heizer, the American consul at Trabzon, reports: plan did not suit Nail Bey.... Many of the children were loaded into boats and taken out to sea and thrown overboard. The Italian consul of Trabzon in 1915, Giacomo Gorrini, writes: "I saw thousands of innocent women and children placed on boats which were capsized in the Black Sea." The Trabzon trials reported Armenians having been drowned in the Black Sea.
Hoffman Philip, the American Charge at Constantinople charge d'affaires, writes: "Boat loads sent from Zor down the river arrived at Ana, one thirty miles away, with three fifths of passengers missing."
Use of poison/overdose
The psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton writes in a parenthesis when introducing the crimes of Nazi doctors, "Perhaps Turkish doctors, in their participation in the genocide against the Armenians, come closest, as I shall later suggest."
Morphine overdose; During the Trabzon trial series of the Martial court, from the sittings between March 26 and May 17, 1919, the Trabzons Health Services Inspector Dr. Ziya Fuad wrote in a report that Dr. Saib caused the death of children with the injection of morphine. The information was allegedly provided by two physicians (Drs. Ragib and Vehib), both Dr. Saib's colleagues at Trabzons Red Crescent hospital, where those atrocities were said to have been committed.
Toxic gas; Dr. Ziya Fuad and Dr. Adnan, public health services director of Trabzon, submitted affidavits reporting cases in which two school buildings were used to organize children and send them to the mezzanine to kill them with toxic gas equipment.
Typhoid inoculation; The Ottoman surgeon, Dr. Haydar Cemal wrote "on the order of the Chief Sanitation Office of the IIIrd Army in January 1916, when the spread of typhus was an acute problem, innocent Armenians slated for deportation at Erzincan were inoculated with the blood of typhoid fever patients without rendering that blood 'inactive'. Jeremy Hugh Baron writes: "Individual doctors were directly involved in the massacres, having poisoned infants, killed children and issued false certificates of death from natural causes. Nazim's brother-in-law Dr. Tevfik Rushdu, Inspector-General of Health Services, organized the disposal of Armenian corpses with thousands of kilos of lime over six months; he became foreign secretay from 1925 to 1938.
http://www.answers.com/topic/armenian-massacres
Parev Ghazaros, this is the site for Davis' book to purchase:
http://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Province-American-Diplomats-1915-1917/dp/08924...
There are many more sites. Here's one of them. http://www.gomidas.org/gida/index_and_%20documents/867.4016_index_and_documents/with%20frames/content_frame.htm
Vartzget gadar Baron Mouradian.
Armenian, Aramean and Greek genocide 1915!
Sweden has recognized the Armenian, Aramean (Syriac) and Greek genocide.
This is a victory for justice.
We Armenians, Arameans and Greeks must stand together.
Together we are strong, and we have to fight peacefully with one voice.
Long live Armenia, Aram and Greece!
Hello Ghazaros, here's another letter and testimonial from U.S. Consul Leslie A. Davis.
"No. 38
Mamouret-ul Aziz (Harput0, Turkey
July 11, 1915
Subject: Transmitting copy of a report to the American Embassy at Constantinople about the expulsion of the Armenians from this part of Turkey.
The Honorable
The Secretary of State,
Washington
Sir:
I have the honor to enclose herewith a copy of a report which i am sending the Embassy at Constantinople in regard to the expulsion of the Armenians from this part of Turkey.
I have the honor to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
[Signed] leslie A. Davis
Consul
Enclosure:
As indicated.
840.1"
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"Mamouret-ul-Aziz (Harput), Turkey
July 11, 1915
Honorable henry morgenthau,
American Ambassador,
Constantinople.
Sir:
I have the honor to supplement my report of June 30th (File No. 840.1) in regard to the expulsion of the Armenians from this region, as follows:
On July 1st a great many people left and on July 3rd several thousand more started from here. Others left on subsequent days. There is no way of obtianing figures but many thousand have already left. The departure of those living at Harput was postponed, however, and many women and children were allowed to remain temporarily. People began to hope that the worst was over and that those who remained might be left alone. Now it has just been announced by the public crier that on Tuesday, July 13th, every Armenian WITHOUT EXCEPTION, must go.
If it were simply a matter of being obliged to leave here to go somewhere else it would not be so bad, but everyone knows it is a case of going to one's death. If there was any doubt about it, it has been removed by he arrival of anumber of parties, aggregating several thousand people, from Erzeroum and Erzingan. The first ones arrived a day or two after my last report was written. I have visited their encampment a number of times and talked with some of the people. A more pitiable sight cannot be imagined. They were almost without exception ragged, filthy, hungry and sick. That is not surprising in view of the fact that they have been on the road for nearly two months with no change of clothing, no chance to wash, no shelter and little to eat. The Government has been giving them some scanty rations here. I watched them one time when their food was brought. Wild animals could not be worse. They rushed upon the guards who carried the food and the guards beat them back with clubs hitting hard enough to kill them sometimes. To watch them one could hardly believe that these people were human beings.
As one walks through the camp mothers offer their children and beg one to take them. in fact, the Turks have been taking their choice of these children and girls for slaves, or worse. In fact, they have even had their doctors there to examine the more likely girls and thus secure the best ones.
There are very few men among them, as most of them have been killed on the road. All tell the same story of having been attacked and robbed by the Kurds. Most of them were attacked over and over again and a great many of them, especially the men, were killed. Women and children were also killed. Many died, of course, from sickness and exhaustion on the way and there have been deaths each day that they have been here. Several different parties have arrived and after remaining a day or two have been pushed on with no apparent destination. Those who have reached here are only a small portion, however, of those who started. By continuing to drive these people on in this way it will be possible to dispose of all of them in a comparatively short time.
Among those with whom I have talked were three sisters. They had been educated at Constantinople and spoke excellent English. They said their family was the riches in
Erzeroum and numbered twenty-five when they left but there were now only fourteen survivors. The other eleven, including the husband of one of them and their old grandmother had been butchered before their eyes by the Kurds. The oldest male survivor of the family was eight years of age. When they left Erzeroum they had money, horses and personal effects but they had been robbed of everything, including even their clothing. They said some of them had been left absolutely naked and others with only a single garment. When they reached a village their gendarmes obtained clothes for them from some of the native women. Another girl with whom I talked is the daughter of the Protestant pastor of Erzeroum. She said every member of her family with her had been killed and she was left entirely alone. These and some others are a few survivors of the better class of people who have been exiled. They are being detained in an abandoned schoolhouse just outside of the town and no one is allowed to enter it. They said they practically are in prison, although they were allowed to visit a spring just outside the building. It was there that I happened to see them. All the others are camped in a large open field with no protection at all from the sun.
The condition of these people indicates clearly the fate of those who have left and are about to leave from here. i believe nothing has been heard from any of them as yet and probably very little will be heard. The system that is being followed seems to be to have bands of Kurds awaiting them on the road to kill the men especially and incidentally some of the others. The entire movement seems to be the most thoroughly organized and effective massacre this country has ever seen."
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There are 3 1/4 more pages to Leslie Davis' letter to Henry Morgenthau, and
here is where I have acquired it from:
http://www.gomidas.org-gida-index_and_%20documents-867.4016_index_and_documents-docs-4016.127.pdf
Hye, Unfortunately the above site didn't work; but I may type the whole 3 1/4 pages of the rest of US Consul's Leslie Davis' letter if the Editors in here permit me; however if not because it'll take a good deal of space, then you can also search under "Gomidas Institute Armenian Genocide Documentation Projet". However all of this you will probably find it in his book that I mentioned it above. To acquire it from amazon.com
Ay apres Aremenian jan..
Good catch.. Maybe Amhet can understand that the reason we had "Starving, deprived, and homeless" Armenians is because of the heartless acts his ancestors and current Turkey has done... Maybe he and his kind will understand because of the Genocide my great grandfather who dedicated his entire adult life to put his life on hold to help his people and find those who were lost, bought, held hostage and/or taken by Turks and reunite them with their families who were all over the world.. My great grandfather who was left penniless because his fortune that was suppose to go to him were taken from his family when Turks killed his father, mother, sister and his grandmother along with other relatives locate, ... But his revenge and his strong love to recoup what was left after the horrible Genocide, allowed him to do the honorable work that he did with little money that he had, and helped thousands to reunite.. the letters that he included in his autobio is just amazing to read.. I wish i knew my great grandfather in person.. he is my inspiration.. he is my role model.. and that love and patriotic sense that i have in me comes from him.. I am his great grand daughter.... God rest his soul and all those people who are alive and the Armenian blood still runs through their veins(particularly people from Datem where he was born, Marash, Kharbert, and many other provinces) are forever greateful to him and his work to his nation.......
Armenian jan.. du unes the passion and the frustration that i share as well.. lol
Gayane
Gary jan....
I feel the same ..:) especially with those we have been communicating with like Katia (my guru in speaking in great words), you (who gives me inspiration to go on), Armenian from another site (who shares my passion and love) and many others... and I like that... Armenians are all over the world and our distance is the pain that causes so many of us to be disconnected.. However, no matter where we are, like you said, we are connect with our hearts...
Please Gary jan.. yerpeq embrass chlines... shat urax em vor du karoxatsel es otarin arnes bayts hye mnas... u misht qo axchiknerin mer hye historin sovoratsru.. they are our future.. voch mek chi imanum te yes um het kamusnanam...de sirts hye e uzum bayts gitem vor whoever I end up marrying, inqa indzanits aveli shat hye piti darna..:) and im erexanera ampayman hye shunchov piti metsanan...everyone says that about me.. lol funny huh? en el hech lav hye tuxayi chem handipel.. even though I live in the most Armenian populated city.. de arten kimanas..;)
Barevi qo knnocha.. iran asa vor ira amusina proud Hye e :) and very proud of her for letting our culture be part of hers..:)
Sincerely,
Gayane
Its about time that Australia recognize the Armenian Genocide, the first Genocide of the Twenth Century. The 1.5 million Armenian souls, women,men and children are crying out from the ground. There will never be justice for the victims but countries that uphold liberty,justice should recognize this great mass killing of Armenians and driving them out of their own land.
Modern day Turkey was curved out from the mass killing of Armenians by then the collasping Ottaman Empire and much of the land taken from them. Before the Genocide Armenians were very well educated and were highly skilled people.
Shame on America still not recognizes the Armenia Genocide and give lecture to countries about Human Rights, Human Liberty. America has shamed the statue of Liberty by blinding it.
Friends,
I posted this exact thing at another weekly site...but
Just read this article... it was shared by a good friend of mine who is not Armenian..
I dare that Erdogan to go ahead and deport 100,000 Armenians out of Turkey.. I DARE HIM...
He said: '' We are tolerating the remaining 100,000 non Muslims and Armenians are not my citizens, and I dont' have to keep them in my country..".. YOU MORON, the country YOU are living in belongs to Armenians.. and it is you who wants them out of your country?? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/7465701/Turkey-threatens-to-expel-100000-Armenians-over-genocide-row.html
AB (CDEFG.....)
I am going to refraim myself from slashing out on you but dont' worry if I do it will only be with words and not with swords.. i know you guys are used to using weapons, we use our intellect and words to stand againts morans such as yourself..
First.. The only reason I know you may not be Armenian is because if you don't know how to spell the name Gayane, very ancient Armenian name.. then you definintely are not an Armenian in my eyes..
Second: Armenians dont' compose their paragraphs and their entire comments in caps.. We use capitalization to emphasize a word or a sentence for you people to notice.. Armenians are more educated and we have learned the proper way of composing sentences.. we dont' yell at people to get our point across....if you did not know this .. in writing when you are using all caps to compose your thoughts and ideas and everything else, it means you are shouting at the person.. a writing lesson for you.. if you did not learn this in your country or at school...
Third: if you are from an Armenian blood, then you would not say that Sarkissian knows what he is doing.. Obviously you are not an Armenian.. If you dont' know about Sarkissyan, I would suggest to go and read about it.. while you are at it, please read about the Armenian Genocide.. It may open your eyes..and may give you some insight what your Turks did to the Armenians..then you would not come here and tell how you write with a clear mind.. your mind is anything but clear Mr or Mrs AB... what a joke.. clear mind..HA..i laugh at that....
If my great grandfather was alive who lost his parents, his sister and grandmother to the bloody marches, his entire fortune that could have been left to him would spit on the faces of those who preach on having discussions.. You do not sit across from the devil and try to make him understand truth and justice.. Devil does not have a soul, heart and mind.. AKA Turkey..
So keep your discussion Mr or Mrs AB and know that the discussion time is OVER.. emphasizing the word over because we are over you and your kind..
Have a nice day..
P.S.
Armenian jan.. gitem vor du will be very upset at this.. bayts mi togh es aylandaka qez hunits hani.. i know you are going to reply to this.. gitem..
Thank you, Nairian, for taking the time and trouble to provide this for all of us. Katia K. asked for testimonies that pull no punches in terms of their grimness. Do you think Leslie Davis' eyewitness accounts do justice to the savagery? Having read a number of delicately-worded survivor accounts, I wouldn't be surprised if, in some books available to us, some things were just too unspeakable for survivors to repeat.
I don't know if 100,000 undocumented illegal Armenians living in the Istanbul area is accurate or not. For arguments sake, let's say the figure is a more unversally acceptable figure of 75K-80K. This takes into consideration the monthly exodus of Armenians flocking to Turkey, as well as other destinations (due to the average of 6K Armenians leaving Armenia each month). Any ridiculous figure of 5K...especially from an ARMENIAN source, is to be taken with a grain of salt! After all, they do have a rather negative track record when it comes to "figures"! So, 75K-80K may indeed be the actual figure of illegal Armenians living in Istanbul. We tolerate them. We're under no obligation to utilize Turkish tax funds to support them (look at the welfare mess they've long since created in Glendale, CA). Let them go back to Armenia, and we should also prevent illegal Armenians from crossing into Turkey (we'll do the same for the Bulgarian illegals if Sophia tries to play the same game in their parliament)! Even Gordon of the US State Dept. cites that Turkey has every legal ground to do so!! So, who will the dashnaks whine to then?
To the Editorial Board:
Can you say COWARD? I have NEVER seen any group with such an infiriority complex and low self-esteem! You continuously make our points for us. The truth scares the beejeezus out you all, doesn't it?!! How many of my posts, which didn't hurt anyone, but simply told the TRUTH, have you all deleted after first censoring it? Even your own regular posters say that deleting my posts are wrong!
A great move by the organizers of the commemoration. In my view, one of the best minds in the diaspora. He has unique analytical skills and the ability to articulate strategies and tactics that move the nation forward. WhenI read his commentaries, I feel a unifying outcome and leadership that our community needs.
To: Gayane
Thank you so much for your kind words & encouragement...aghchikneres shad arjekavor en ints hamar! Yev, poloris hamar anshusht!
To:Nairian
Thank you for posting the letter dated 11 July by Leslie Davis. Shad tsavov ge gartank ais arunod batmutchiunnere! No wonder there is so much pain even a century later!
G
You are welcomed Ghazaros, Although what I am doing now for our martyrs' souls is such a small matter; but I am sure my grandmother Khachkhatoun's, my grandfather Khatchig's, my great grandfather Kevork's and my great grandmother Hazarkhan's souls are happy now that in my little way I am letting the world to know what happened to them during the Armenian Genocide in 1915 by the hands of the CUP, the Turks and the Kurds . What their poor bodies and souls went through is unspeakable of, unimaginable, unthinkable and so horribly atrocious. I never knew my extended family on both sides of my parents because of the Genocide; but as much and even worse than that is our nation's great loss; more than 1.5 Million of our beautiful race's loss is what I have been crying about and still do. It is hard, very hard to digest Ghazaros that a whole nation have been almost distinct atrociously and horrendously; and what a nice race we were, but make no mistake, we shall survive amongst vermins and wild animals. We are a nation of survivors, we are resilient and very proud bunch of people and we shall continue to survive!!!!
Ghazaros, You asked whether Leslie Davis' eye wintness accounts in regards to the savagery do justice. I don't know; but try to think what they have endured, those poor souls have walked down from Erzeroum and Erzincan with practically very little food and water, if any, they were treated like wild animals by barbarians (thanks to the barbaric Turks and the barbaric Kurds), they saw their pretty sisters, mothers, daughters raped infront of their eyes, then killed or taken away for slavery. They saw their fathers, husbands, brothers, beheaded, killed, their eyes being put out, their noses and ears cut out, their skin being carved out then aunts being put into it to torture them by horrifying and painful deaths. Then boiled egges being put under their armpits, little girls being thrown up in the air while bayonets' swords are waiting at the bottom to tear their little bodies apart. And finally when these poor civilized Armenian souls having witnessed all that, then the Kurdish peasants charged at them taking their monies, belongings, foods, and have teared and taken away even their clothes that they were wearing and left them naked to walk that way for two whole months, mostly hungry, thirsty and sick, what do you expect? By the time they have reached to Kharpert (Harput) they were probably half mad, very hungry, thirsty, desolate and very very frightened state of mind. You hear about how soldiers that came back from wars, such as the Vietnam war and other wars, how a good number of them psychologically are warped, mostly in a crazy state of mind, and mind you those soldiers weren't even left hungry or thirsty for many months walking and being attacked, looted and God knows what else that they went through. Wars are hell; but what our poor martyrs went through is beyond our wildest imagination.
Erdogan, Will you murder and mutilate "your" Amernians too, the way you did the LAST time?
Adolf Hitler, when told that any planned genocide against the Jews of Germany would result in world outrage, replied, "Who remembers what happened to the Armenians?"
Erdogan, WE WILL NEVER LET YOU FORGET UNTIL YOU ADMIT WHAT YOUR PEOPLE DID.
to: Ara K.
From what I have read, many of these 'illegal aliens' in Turkey today are victims of their friends' tricks of having them sent there with promises of a 'better job' only to end up as slaves & prostitutes!
You are right! The RA should welcome their own citizens (even if they are not citizens) with open arms! Governments were set up to protect their citizens from outside harm and today (even in N.A.) we need something to protect us from our own elected officials and our own laws & governments :(
G
The continuation of US Consul Leslie Davis' letter to Henry Morgenthau.
"Not many men have been spared, however to accompany those who are being sent into exile, for a more prompt and sure method has been used to dispose of them. Several thousand Armenian men have been arrested during the past few weeks. These have been put in prison and each time that several hundred had been gathered up in that way they were sent away during the night. The first lot was sent away during the night of June 23rd. Among them were some of the professors in the American college and other prominent Armenians, including the Prelate of the Armenian Gregorian Church of Harput. There have been frequent rumors that all of these were killed and there is little doubt that they were. All Armenian soldiers have likewise been sent away in the same manner. They have been arrested and confined in a building at one end of the town. No distinction has been made between those who had paid their military exemption tax and those who had not. Their money was accepted and then they were arrested and sent off with the others. It was said that they were to go somewhere to work on the roads but no one has heard from them and that is undoubtedly false.
The fate of all the others has been pretty well established by reliable reports of a similar occurence on Wednesday, July 7th. On Monday many men were arrested both at Harput and Mezreh and put in prison. At daybreak Tuesday morning they were about eight hundred in all and they were tied together in groups of fourteen each. That afternoon they arrived in a small Kurdish village where they were kept over night in the mosque and other buildings. During all this time they were without food or water. All their money and much of their clothing had been taken from them. On Wednesday morning they were taken to a valley a few hours' distant where they were all made to sit down. Then the gendarmes began shooting them until they had killed nearly all of them. Some who had not been killed by bullets were then disposed of with knives and bayonets. A few succeeded in breaking the rope with which they were tied to their companions and running away, but most of these were pursued and killed. A few succeeded in getting away, probably not more than two or three. Among those who were killed was the Treasurer of the American College. Many other estimable men were among the number. No charge of any kind had ever been made against any of these men. They were simply arrested and killed as part of the general plan to dispose of the Armenian race.
Last night several hundred more men, including both men arrested by the civil authorities and those enrolled as soldiers, were taken in a different direction and murdered in a similar manner. It is said this happened at a place not two hours' distant from here. I shall ride out that way some day when things become a little quieter and try to verify it for myself.
The same thing has been done systematically in the villages. A few weeks ago about three hundred men were gathered together at Itchme and Haboosi, two villages four and five hours' distant from here, and then taken up into the mountains and massacred. This seems to be fully established. Many women from those villages have been here since and told about it. There have been rumors of similar occurences in other places.
There seems to be a definite plan to dispose of all the Armenian men, but after the departure of the families during the first few days of the enforcement of the order it was announced that women and children with no men in the family might remain here for the present and many hoped that the worst was over. The American missionaries began considering plans to aid the women and children who would be left here with no means of support. It was thought that perhaps an orphanage could be opened to care for some of the children especially those who had been born in America and then brought here by their parents and also those who belonged to parents who had been connected in some way with the American Mission and schools. There would be plenty of opportunity, although there might not be sufficient means, to care for children who reached here with the exiles from other Vilayets and whose parents had died on the way. I went to see the Vali about this matter yesterday and was met with a flat refusal. He said we could aid these people if we wished to do so, but the Government was establishing orphanages for the children and we could not undertake any work of that nature. An hour after I left the Vali the announcement was made that all the Armenians remainig here, including women and children, must leave on July 13th.
The evident plan of the Government is to give no opportunity for any educational or religious work to be done here by foreign missionaries. Some Armenian women will be taken as Moslem wives and some children will be brought up as Moslems, but none of them will be allowed to come under foreign influences. The country is to be purely Moslem and nothing else. Some of the missionaries think they would like to remain here and try to work among Moslems. I not only think it would be very dangerous for them to undertake it but do not believe they will be alloweed to do anything along that line. I shall not be surprised, as I have said before, if all the American missionaries are ordered to leave here in the near future. If they are not, they will be so effectually prevented from doing any kind of work that it will be entirely useless for them to remain here. Furthermore, they will be annoyed in many ways by the local officials. I do not think for a moment that they will be allowed to open any of the schools again and it's quite probably that the hospital may be ordered closed. It is very probable also that both the school and the hospital buildings may be seized by the Government. It seems certain that there will not be any work for them to do here and that they will not be permitted to do any work."
There is more of 1-1/4 page of Leslie Davis' letter.
In this article, the author said, (emphasis added by me), "Erdogan’s threat is, of course, empty. It would be a huge scandal to deport Armenians from Turkey, and would constitute a chilling reminder of what is referred to by the Turkish state as the “deportations” of Armenians almost a century ago."
Oh, boy. Where to start? Since when is Turkey concerned about "scandal" or what, for example, Europe thinks about Turks? Turkey has shown that it can get away with virtually anything. It gets away today with all sorts of human rights violations, offenses against Kurds and Christians, the occupation of Cyprus, and the blockade of Armenia.
I would like to like to know if the author truly thinks that expelling illegal aliens (which is what Turkey and many others consider them - let's be honest) from Turkey is something that is unthinkable for Turkey - or whether the author simply misspoke.
Turkey and every other country expels people everyday. The US does. True, Turkey's threat is reminiscent of what we know to be death marches, but Turkey could expel Armenians next week, and no country would anything to stop it, nor would it ruin Turkey's chances of joining the EU, nor would the US in any way stop supporting Turkey.
I don't understand why the author said what he did. I assume he got a bit carried away and would, in hindsight, rephrase things.
AB
My answer for you is in my lines on March 17 (please look up) it starts with the words "Drew, you do not know" and ends with "stop sounding like them"
please read it carefully to know why we Armenians and you Turks cannot reconcile under the current conditions.. If you see me angry and call Turks with some names.. there is a reason for it.. a very very large reason.
Good luck.
Gayane thanks very much dear.. but please calm down!
Like a good politician, his mouth runs away from him often. That was a disgusting comment to make right after the event organized for the Roma, where in effect they were embraced by the state and there was even an apology. Then he folows it with such an awful and shameful statement. He is an enigma even to his followers I think.
So Mr. Tom you think that deporting 100,000 Armenians from Turkey just like that won't be a scandal? Good luck convinving people of that. Some people are so far from reality it baffles me... Or is it that you think by saying that, the Turks will heed to your advice and deport them, and then you will say bad things about Turks?
"The Story of the Near East Relief" by James Barton has pictures of the orphans who survived. They were skin and bone, filthy and plagued with disease like typhus. Money was collected by americans and the book said one million Armenians were saved in the orphanages in Lebanon, etc. run by the missionaries who worked with them, often getting sick and dying themselves.
I also mention that the refugees from the Bolsheviks who landed by boat in Turkey were in the same condition, and I don't know how many of the 100,000 or more of them went on and survived. That also, these atrocities were going on in Russia and against each other in civil war too perhaps. That human rights was and still is very different in Russia, Turkey and Iran, and why it is important to demand an improvement in human rights in these countries. That these countries acted like savages and barbarians; to the americans these things were horrible and made them sick to their stomach according to Harry Truman who served in WWI and heard about these stories.
Also, that is very important that the subject of genocide be taught in schools for children to understand what causes them, the nature of prejudice and the value of human rights, in all countries, Israel, France, etc. Maybe the way it is taught has to be determined so the subject does not traumatize the children (Sarkozy had trouble), but teaches them to become more emphathetic. If there was more emphathy in the parties to a conflict, maybe better results in conflict resolution would be achieved. Therefore, bringing attention to the world of the Armenian genocide may cause some good results in the education field and conflict resolution.
Avetis boy, please your only embarrassing yourself. The oligarch system in Armenia is a fact and even most Armenians in Armenia understand this. Yet you portray this as being totally fine? Sargsyan is an illegitimate stooge put there by himself and the ruling thugs and that is does not equate to "one of the best we ever had". He is neither politically brilliant nor savvy and neither are you. Your ideas are not what is good for Armenia or its people. Also I didn't need a "CIA book or a Diaspora induced obsessions of Turks & the genocide" to know that my grandparents and their family were either outright killed and my lands, which I still hold the deeds to, were taken just for being Armenian. An Armenian didn’t do this but rather the TURKS DID! Please don't preach to me, and I am sure I can speak for all the other Armenians for that matter, that have been profoundly effected by the result of the genocide to just forget about it. As usual, your stupid irrelevant, always bitter, Sargsyan and Turkish apologist threads always speak in third person language. You either are a total moron, a tool box or a really just a TURK in disguise!
Here's the end of U.S. Consul, Leslie Davis' letter to the Honorable Mr. Henry Morgenthau on July 11, 1915 from Mamouret-ul-Aziz (Harput), Turkey:
"Under the circumstances, I think the only wise and safe thing for them to do is to consider the matter of leaving here, temporarily at least, as soon as it may be possible. I realize that it is a serious matter for them to abandon their work but the present situation is serious too and I fully believe there is nothing else for them to do. It would probably not be best for all of them to leave together, but I am going to advise that some of them leave as soon as it may be safe to go. In the meantime I earnestly recommend that the Embassy bring to the attention of Mr. Peet and the board the possible necessity of all of them leaving here.
I do not think that any of them should go now. In fact, some of them have been quite firmly of the opinion that someone should go at once for the purpose of trying to raise a relief fund for these unfortunate people. To go now would be almost certain death, with bands of Kurds awaiting travelers on every road. I asked the Vali, however, if it would be all right for one or two of the Americans to leave here now to go to Constantinople and then to America and he said very plainly that it would not be safe. He said that no matter how much a guard he gave them it would be dangerous for them to travel at the present moment and advised waiting a few weeks. This confirms the general fear as to the fate of those who are sent away from here. It also indicated that perhaps the authorities do not wish any real harm to befall the Americans. On the other hand, the Vali intimated that possibly the Americans might not be permitted to leave here. Some of them think that we know too much about what is happening in the interior of Turkey and the authorities do not intend to let any Americans leave here alive to tell about it. I do not think that, but I do think the life of every American here is in danger and that the danger is increasing. If all of the missionaries can get away safely I shall feel greatly relieved. It is not only that the present situation is very critical, but they are constantly doing things that are more or less imprudent. The entire colony may suffer for the imprudence of one person. It is quite natural that they should sympathize with the people among whom they have been working and want to aid and protect them, but there is great danger of carrying their zeal too far and getting into trouble themselves.
With reference to the need of funds for the relief of these exiles, which I mentioned in my telegrams of June 27th and 28th and my dispatch of June 30th, I am inclined to believe that there will be no occasion for raising funds. It looks as though there were not going to be any people who can be helped. All who are sent away will probably be killed or die on the road within the next few months and the women and children who are left will probably have to become Moslems.
My attention has just been called to the fact that the post office at Mamouret-ul-Aziz has refused to pay out money to the Americans that has been sent them from Erzeroum and Erzingan for the exiles who have come here. It is probable that the Government will confiscate this money. I do not know whether the Embassy would care to take any measures about this or not. The money is addressed to the Americans, but it is intended for the Armenian exiles.
Embassy's telegrams Nos. 19 and 20 have been received. I have seen the Vali about the naturalized American citizens and their children and about the consular staff. He said he had received no instructions about them, as I telegraphed this morning. I have now just received word that the consular staff and two or three women whose husbands are in America may stay here for the present. There seems to be nothing very definite about any of it. I shall be very glad to have these women leave as soon as it is reasonably safe for them to go. I hope it can be arranged for the employees of the Consulate, however, to remain here permanently, or at least as long as there may be a Consulate. It would be impossible to find any one to take their place.
I have the honor to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
[signed] Leslie A. Davis
Consul.
840.1"
Avetis -- If you read the history of other nations you'll see that "naive, ignorant or paid-for individuals" existed in virtually all of them. This is, unfortunately, all-human behavior, and not just typically Armenian. Ottoman sultans, for example, ordered to kill their own sons in order to iliminate any threat for their own reign. During the WWII, Ukranian collaborators with the Nazis betrayed their own citizens. The Russian and the Chinese collaborators with their respective Communist regimes used to betray their own citizens en masse, that resulted in multi-million deaths and imprisonments. The list can go on and on. As for obssession with the Turks and the genocide, that's too is all-human and not typically Armenian. This is a natural reaction of a nation that's been annihilated en masse, deprived from their historical homeland and possessions. Would you expect any other reaction to this henious crime? Armenians' obsession is not with the Turks per se, but with all consecutive Turkish governments that until the present day shamelessly deny what their predecessors did 95 years ago. Go on, blame all other genocide-striken nations for their aspiration to acjieve justice. Go on, Avetis, blame the Jews, Ukranians, Cambodians, Afro-Americans, American Indians, Darfurians for essentially being a victim. By doing so, soulless and anational people like you only justify the crimes of genocide-perpetrators and genocide-deniers.
As for your panegirics for Serjik, I can only pity you and your small-mindedness. First, because Serjik is not OUR president, the majority of Armenia's populace hasn't even elected the crook. He's thus unelected and unrepresentative thug, and the only thing that's progressing in Armenia is his notorious mafia clans, nepotism, manipulations with currency, and impoverishment of his own people. Oligarchs are despicable in any society, but the difference they are even more despicable in the countries like Armenia is that they've monopolized all the economy obstructing the creation of the middle-class and civil liberties for the population. I'm sorry to say, one needs to be a moron to compare oligarchic systems in Armenia and the U.S. In the U.S. oligarchs do not essentially affect the basic rights and enterprenureal possibilities of ordinary American sitizens. I'm so sorry that my nation has also produced types like you, Avetis.
Istanbul armenians are a mixture of the armenians who were in istanbul during the genocide & the anatolian armenians that survived the genocide and then migrated to istanbul. In fact, today, they are much more of the second than the first...
Khatchig, perhaps you should spend more time with them to get to know them better while you are there
Now Prime Minister of Sweden, Mr. Frederick Reinfeldt, I hope you read these commentary sections and then decide for yourself if it's the moral and the ethical thing to do to apologize to the Prime Minister of Turkey, Mr. Raccip Erdogan that the Armenian Genocide Resolution should not have been accepted in Sweden's Parliament and you are apologyzing for the passing of it.
If and when Mr. Barak Obama and Mrs. Hillary Clinton of the U.S. read the commentaries on this website, I hope they both feel so happy and content with their moral and ethical stand for trying to annul or stay against the passing of the Armenian Genocide Resolution in the House of Representatives, the United States Congress.
I would like to comment on the notion that Armenians in Istanbul did not suffer any consequences of the genocide in 1915. This may be true to some extent as the scale of “deportation” was smaller. However, there were some deportations (10,000 Armenian bachelors were deported December 4, 1915 ) and there were huge numbers of murders in the city (some sources say up to 50,000). Therefore I suggest that it is a misconception that Armenians were spared thanks to western embassies or being in a metropolitan centre.
Secondly, majority of today’s Armenians in Istanbul are recent comers from Anatolia and their descendents (sorry I don’t have numbers on this maybe the Patriarchate does). I would suggest that a majority of Armenians and their descendents who were residents of Istanbul in the 20’s have had to emigrate due to discriminatory policies (such as ksan tasagark, varlik vergisi as well as everyday routine harassment) and specific pogroms (such 6-7 September 1955 and other similar uprisings concerning Cyprus). I would suggest that Armenians are never at peace in Istanbul, not matter how “good” they are.
To: Nairian & others
Thank youf or the posting of Consul Davis' letter to Henry Mongenthau.
A very sad state affairs of the time.
I believe the American Missionaries came to Turkey, mostly to teach the people about the Gospel of Jesus. They soon found the Turks not responsive to the Christian message. Then they turned to the Armenians, already the first Christians in history, with the same message of the Gospel. I believe this is how Armenian Protestants came about? Please correct me if I am wrong?
Just think how history would have been different had the Turks and other Muslims accepted Christianity? Instead of bent on destroying our nation and other Christians. Christianity is not spread 'by the sword' but by explaining the love of God for all people!
Dashnaks have become extremely arrogant. They always demand something! They have become so complacent with their propaganda BS that they are actually starting to believe it themselves. This piec show how cordial and respectful Turks are.
Hello Editorial Board:
WHERE ARE MY POSTS PLEASE? Your constant display of cowardice via censorship is getting quite old already!
I have a lot to say to this comment, but let me just say "Why do we have to put up with such hateful commentary in an Armenian publication?"
Hi Gary jan, you are welcomed and it's the very least we can do for our beloved martyrs' souls and their sad memories. Gary, you are probably right about some Armenians having become Protestants or believing in the Brethren Churches, at least some of them. I never thought about it, but you are most likely right, that's probably why those American Missionaries were in Armenia in the first place. If memory serves me right, I believe in and around Cilicia, when the French were there, some Armenians have become Catholics through the French peoples' influence. Otherwise, Armenians have always been "Hay Lousavorchagans". Belonging to the Armenian Apostolic Church. Anyhow, we are all Christians and we all believe to the three "God, Lord Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit" that are one.
Lucine, you are amazing, your message is powerful; this is the first article I have read that characterizes so fully and accurately the criminal complicity of the mainstream media, orchestrated by Turkish, Israeli, US and UK lobbies, in blocking the voices of the victimized nations of Armenia, Greece and Assyria. Those lobbies can buy the media but they could not buy the Parliaments of 17 important democracies (Canada, France, Russia, Italy and recently Sweden to name the few) and 42 US states, who passed resolutions acknowledging the unprecedented crime in the history of mankind, committed by the Turkish people; these recognitions are the strong messages in the face of Israel, US and UK, telling them that their defunct and immoral attitude of honeymoon with criminal Turkey has humiliated them and they are already in the minority camp and soon they will be isolated; thus, the truth has been revealed and prevails already and those culprit nations are still hiding from the truth; the longer they hide the more humiliated they will be; like Lucine says it so eloquenly and correctly at the end of her article.
Lucine, with your article you have brought to life all the victims of the heinous crime and their descendants are six million times stronger, you deserve all the admiration.
I agree totally with Anoush & Elsa.
The one time I was in Ani I felt as close to God as a person can get. Be careful there, Khatchig.
Dear Ani,
I couldn't agree with you more. Regardless that anyone can speak his or her mind and should be allowed to do so in a democratic paper and environment; however there's a limit to everything, when the posts from a particular individual becomes redundant, inconstructive, generalizations without also mentioning at least the good as well as not the good of any people or organization; or at least by trying to educate himself towards it, and finally the destructiveness of the posts from that same individual, what may happen is the spirit of the other commentators will be put down and the intelligent ones may decide to abstain from coming here and commenting altogether. Perhaps the unintelligent and the destructive poster's wish is just that. So yes on this note, I most certainly agree with you.
A good job well done dear Mr. Mouradian. You asked president Gul a smart question. I am glad you did.
"This piec show how cordial and respectful Turks are."
Robert, Turks are cruel, brutal, and domineering men.
See: Webster's Encyclopedic Unbridged Dictionary of the English Language. ISBN: 0-517-11864-5
Very moving KYB and to the point.I trust the turks on this Forum wll wish to eally accept as you put it facts that are facts...to that effect.
But i don't really beleve that those here present are the amuk type.Nonetheless keep pumping into their mindset such as you have,who knows you may ,at the very least
make some progress,like I am trying to do.I just posted another similar below ANI up above on Muradian's visit to the palace of Mr.Gul, pres. of R.of Turkey...
am also trying my best to explain to them that we are all for it,for coming to a mutual understanding-provided- they respond...Quite doubtful though ...
Since as we know, as of Ataturk's Schooling -some 80/ years or so their understanding of truth from "massals" ad concocted up stories has been submitted to a total "reverssely" explaining what occurred then in 1915 ad even prior to that in the 1890's(REd Sultan Hamid's reigh0...
let us hope that some of these new generation turks may by and by -having lived abroad as well, go back and educate their bvrethren ssters...
g.p
LATEST !!!
NEWS FROM EUROPE HAS IT THAT THERE HAVE BEEN -ON TOP OF MR ERDOGAN'S THREATS-NOT CLEAR THE SOURCE THOUGH- THAT ALAWSUIT ,SORRY MULTIPLE 22/24 SUCH LAWSUITS ARE TO BE LODGED AGAINST THOSE COUNTRES THAT HAVE RECOGNIZED THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!!!
THIS REALLY IS SENSATIONAL!!!IF BY TOMORROW IT IS CONFIRMED.
IMAGINE, ON THE ONE HAND MR PRESIDENT GUL ,SEE ABOE BIDS FAREWELL TO MURADIAN AND CONVEYS REGARDS TO OUR"ELDERLY"S
THE OTHER SECTOR -DEEP STATE/ COMES OTU WITH THIS ONE...
WAIT AND SEE!!!
LET US REALLY BE EADY FOR SRPRISES THESE DAYS...
G.P
How pathetic! Gul says he knows what happens and yet still lies. If this is not a picture of hypocrisy and evil then I don't know what is.
PS Turks left Greece, for example, in a negotiated exchange of populations between the two countries. This is not deportation to the desert without food or water, it did not result in the slaughtering of 1.5 million people. There is "deportation" which really means deportation, and then there is the "deportation" which was the signal to the Nazis of how they should go about their own "deportations" of the Jews and others they deemed unworthy of survival.
It is the height of gall for Erdogan to call those lands "his country," when it is OUR country. Why not "deport" Armenians back to their country (W. Armenia in present-day Turkey), and "deport" Turks to their natural habitat in Central Asia?
Please don't expect that the author (know)have knowledge of what transpired then.
Indeed he -according to previous dsclosure-learnt Istanbul-turkish while born in the U.s. and spoke it with president Gul.Does that mean that as ANI above has one by one pointed out,the maltreatment-not to say barbaric treatment - of their subjects"rayas' and proof of which is what sporadically "bursts" out of the mouths of their politicians ,hardliners etc.,
Most important to know is that it was a premeditated MALICIOUS/DABOLIC SHEME of ethnic cleansing at the peak of its sytle to completely ERASE Armenians ,plus Assyrians, Greeks mainly from land that they had conquered centuries ago..Does that give them License to behave as they HAVE and are at present still at it ,albeit in some more sophisticated manner?
Moreover ANI-pleae forgive me for adding tis one too-THE MOST IMPORTANT ONEWhen they were about_the young Truks ttihad ver Teraqui band, to commence their execution of the said diabolic plan, THEY FIRST ROUNDED UP THE 250/300 INTELELCTUALS LIVING IN ISTANBULLA(Constantinople) and the proceeded with ...
By the by I like what TOM G. ,or others like him express blatantly that other important countres have also resorted to that(not to that extent0 except Nazi Germany , later in s.Africa etc.,but facts are there..also mentioning the U.s. etc.,
t is time to address thigs more clearly.For instance a Prof. Thillingirian that was born in Constantinopl(istanbulla0 studied local and a few other tongues,indeed perfect Armenian as wel, later fed up ..left the country and lived in s.of France wrote in his book to this effect Title.."ESH AHATAG HAY ZHOGHOVOURT' .THERE HE THROWS LIGHT ON FOR EXAMPLE-HOW SIMPLE, OR KIND HEARTED ARMENIANS JUST GET HAPPY TO READ HENRY MORGENTHAUS' DISCLOSURES RE ARMENIAN ASSACRES ETC.,HE asks:-WHY DID HE NOT ASK HIS COUNTRY TO INTERVENE-WHEN THAT COUNTRY'S 9U.S.A.0 BATTLESHIPS WERE NOT FAR OFF THE BOSPHORUS.AND MANY SUCH ISSUES THAT WE ARMENIANS HAVE CONVENIENTLY PASSED OVER.WHY INDEED now ,right now not only U.S. RUSSIA EU ARE QUITE OBVIOUSLY-PROMPTED BY THEIR COUNTRIES' INTEESTS, TRY TO PUSH US TO KISS AND MAKE UP WITH TURKEY,WHEN ACCOUNTS HAVE NOT AS YET BEEN SETTLED?
WHY DID THEY NOT DO THE SAME WITH GERMAN WHY,THEY ACCUSED IT CONDEMNED IT AND RESSED IT/HER-GERMANY TO PAY BILLIONS OF DOLALRS IN COMPENSATION..STILL GOES ON TO SOME FAMILIES...
I believe MUCH MORE PRESURE OUGHT TO BE PUT-WRITING AND EXPLAINING LIKE PROF.TCHILLINGIRIAN BOLDLY DOES.HOW COME they did not STOP OTTOMAN TURKEY..-THE BRITS TOO-.Indfference
Then why do we still go after these begging them to heed our PLEAS-in U.S.VERY OPENLY ad particularly.TIME IS TO DIVERT OUR MAIN ATTENTION TO SMALL,MEDIUM SIZE STATES LIKE PROF YVES TERNON LAST YEAR INAPRIL-FIRST WEEK-STATED AT AN ARMENIAN CONFERENCE..ENDING ...AND I QUOTE"parlement a parlement" go seek your friends there-in other words...so the BIG POWERS WILL HAVE TO COME TO TERMS THAT PRESENT TURKEY's E V A L U A T I O N-(wrong Evaluation) ought to be corected.I am really srprised for following.
While Iran next door is non-belligerent ,has no such HORRIBLE history behind no al Qaeda cells-so far discovered therein,is rated as ARch enemy?whileother two neighbours around it are full of those cells doing harm.These may be out of the theme here,but makes one think,how mis conceived are the perceptions of those powers-EExcept perhaps those who are sall medium size ones...
g.p
Avo, yes el qo dem artahaytutyunnerin ushadrutyun chem dartsnum ,voch el kardum, ayl hetevum em qo hogevichake' te inch tagnapnerov es tarapum. Te Astvats inchpes qo dimats anoghok e' yeghel. Kheghj Avo.... du ognutyan yev khnamakalutyan petq unes.
Mr. Dougarian how is it that men, much like you, feel entitled to talk about and classify feminism? You say Lara’s feminism is "too retro" or "too first wave" but I m sure that you are the type to have dimissed the whole movement altogether in the 1960's. With the small gains women made thus far, you instead dismiss this voices as "an old thing". I urge you to revisit your own ARCHAIC and RETRO, the "way too 1990's" arguments you present here. I see a trend among Armenian men’s arguments which I would like to deconstruct and criticize here:
This is the basic structure of your arguments (here, presented by Dougarian and Armen)
- Sexal education/ sex/ sex before marriage/ exploring sexuality is not only anti-nationalist but actively destroying humanity: Women’s empowerment through sex education is destroying the fabric of tradition; it is also the root cause of social decay and massive social decadence. Furthermore it is the funnel transmitting western imperialism to Armenia. (According to supperblogger Armen, women are destroyers of german and western civilizations and special mentions goes out to Dougarian for accusing women of the genocide of the unborn (the children are our future remember?)
Basically sexual awareness/women's empowerment = destruction of life and culture. What an Archaic, expired, old-school argument! We all know that is not true! So….So 1980's...
here are a few thoughts:
women can still raise children, educate children, choose children, nurture children, neighbors, friends, partners while having the ability to have the sex they want, when and how they choose within or outside marriage... the article make us hope it will be done in a safe, consensual, empowered and non self-destructive way.
When accusing women of genocide or destroying cilivization, remember that they actually do NOT rule the world... in fact their situation can be seen as a symptom, not a cause of civilized decay.
Some philosophical and witty thoughts:
**Women have always been fighters, revolutionaries, warriors, caretakers, nurturers but this history is consistently erased and forgotten - it is luddites such as yourself who, with your primitive utterances, keep on erasing the existence of this reality over and over again (this is not recorded in history, in books, etc) as if in society it didn’t exist at all in the first place! Hello? We are the upholders of the nation and society! Thus, how is our own education, safety, information on our own the bodies anti-nationalist and anti-society? Women talking to other women about life, sexuality, bodies, culture and freedom has been going on for millennia...However also, the constant fight needed to participate in politics and make women's reality REAL has been going on for millennia, its called patriarchal foolery....
** Western imperialism (westernization of the world) is an international, contemporary, situation which affects ALL nations worldwide, not just Armenia. It is in NO WAY women's fault, nor is it women's responsibility or their role to retain the purity of ANY of their nations especially when they do not have political representation, access to work, potential for independence nor juridical protection from domestic violence. Moreover the most current and modern feminism (there goes the f word again), focuses on cultural preservation and integrity (and the role of women) in the face of western imperialism - how can you say women destroyed the world?
A MORE CIVIL,DIPLOMATIC APPROACH BY US.,RUSSIA AND EU.WOULD BE TO ADDRESS PRESIDENT OF REPUBLIC OF TURKEY TO ASK MR. RECEP T.ERDOGAN TO PRESENT HIS RESIGNATION.FOR HIS RECENT OUTBURST IS UNCOUTH,UN-DIPLOATIC AND TATAMOUNT TO RE-CONFIRMING HIS PREDECESORS' STANCE AS TO THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE THAT LIVED PEACFULLY IN THEIR MILLENIA OLD HABITAT.
IT IS NOT IN LINE/ACCORD WITH U.N. CHARTER, AND OTHER UNIVERSAL DECLARATIONS AND CANNOT BE ACCEPTABLE .A NATION THAT IS ASPIRING TO ENTER E.U.THIS IS THE LEAST THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT IN CONFORMITY WITH SUCH CHARTERS . INSULTING,NAY THREATENING"CHANTAGE" BEHAVOURS CANNOT BE ADMITTED IN THE PRESENT MODUS VIVENDI
THAT THE WHOLE WORLD DESIRES...
TIME TO ACTIS NOW,IN ORDER THAT IF AND WHEN ARMENIAN GENOCDE RESOLUTION PASSES THEY (TURKEY) cannot protest and refuse doing so as well.
Dear Janine,
I understand your point. However, I have a couple of points to make.
Population exchanges (or as you call them deportations) were not exactly escorted trips. There were a lot of violent killings and massacres there as well. Thousands of Greeks (I don't have exact numbers but I believe it is as high as 200, 000) lost their lives in the process.
In addition, I believe what Gul was referring to is the expulsion of Turks subsequent to the Balkan War of 1912 and not the Greek population exchange which happened in 1923. Large number of Turks did die of hunger during and after their expulsion, in additon to massacres in the Balkans. There were thousands of hungry and homeless Balkan Turks in the streets of Istanbul. This site made the Turks feel totally humiliated. Some of these Balkan Turks were then settled in the houses of Armenians soon after their rightful owners were sent on to the death marches.
I agree with your previous e-mail. As one wise man once said denial is the final stage of genocide. So the Armenian Genocide still continues. I commend Mr. Mouradian courage for his comments to the President. I am looking forward to read his detailed articles when he gets back.
I believe that Who did the sin he /she will pay it in this world and will pay it after the life.
Who s responsible about Armenian Massacres they paid it with their lifes in this world and they will pay it later.But as a Turkish citizens we need to give back their houses and prosperties and their honour back.All armenians werent betrayer they didnt deserve the deportation from their lands.
We all need to ask, how many generations of Armenians lived with and under Turkish rule, and lived quite well under the protection of the sultans, for a very long time? During 1000 years of living side by side, how many intermarried along the way? How many changed identities and became the other? As much as some of today's diasporan Armenians have distain for anything they see as being 'Turkish', the truth is that their grandparents and all who came before them for many generations, were as much a part of the fabric of Turkish society as those few who were truly Turkish. It has been said that the Armenians were more Turkish (probably meaning, 'Anatolian'), than anyone else in the Ottoman empire. For hundreds and hundreds of years, Armenians contributed significantly to Ottoman society, and were a valued component of it, as well as to the Seljuk empire that came before. Who do you think built all those amazing Seljuk structures? Not Seljuks, that's for sure. In that sense and many others, Turks and Armenians are deeply intertwined, despite the hostility that developed as a result of 1915 and the creation myths/lies that underlie today's republic of Turkey. Turkey is truly home for most diasporan Armenians, one that most have never visited. Perhaps a blanket invitation is in order, to reacquaint Armenians with their historic roots there? The ball is truly in Turkey's court to make a positive and significant move, and I suspect this is on the way, despite all the sidetracking. Truth will win and see the light of day, even in Turkey, and everyone will be better as a result. Turkey will achieve a new status in the world and Armenians will feel more comfortable than ever visiting the lands of their ancestors. No one can change the past, but everyone can have a hand in changing the future. Khatchig's visit is part of that transformation, I believe.
It is amazing that such a bigoted and racist remark is the response to this piece that is critical of the borderline racist comment of a politician.
"Kurds were used by the Ottoman Turks during the Armenian Genocide to kill the Armenians"
is this comment a serious one or a joke ?
Somebody comes to me and hands me a gun and tells me to kill somebody, and I will do it ???
If I do it, because I am a murderer, no excuse will change this fact.
Don't be funny please.
I wasn't going to write, since it proved to be useless in the past many many times; how can I talk in a civilised way if you think I am blood thirsty Turk. Shame on you those who are racists.
But your ignorance and racism reached a level that is way beyond the imagination of anyone with some sensible history knowledge. You are mixing population exchanges with Turco-Russian war migrations then someone else mixing it with Balkan wars migrations; and without shame someone also writes here how Turks killed Greeks (Christian Crusader Brotherhood), and also totally ignoring what happened to the Musliman peoples of Caucasus who were once the majority; including the capital of Armenia, today, once called Revan.
Where are those people today - proudly exterminated to open space for a free Armenia, right?
Is there any other nation on earth, so shamelessly blaiming another nation for exactly what they have done?
There will be no possible peace between us, unless you acknowledge the people murdered at the hands of Armenians?
Cheers all,
"The more we moved away from civilization, the more agitated were our souls and the more our minds were racked with fear. We thought we saw bandits behind every boulder; ..The expert on Armenian peasant songs, the peerless archimandrite Father Komitas, who was in our carriage, seemed mentally unstable. He thought the trees were bandits on the attack and continually hid his head under the hem of my overcoat, like a fearful partridge. He begged me to say a blessing for him..." This passage is from the "Armenian Golgotha", the memoirs of Genocide survivor Father Grigoris Balakian, describing one of our most famous and world renowned composers, Komitas. Balakian and Komitas were in the first 250 intellectuals, physicians, religious figures, poets and politicians who were arrested the morning of April 24, 1915. The individuals who were in Balakian's group helped him escape, and asked him to write about them if he ever survived. Father Balakian had studied in Germany and was fluent in German, and survived by disguising himself as a German officer. Father Komitas also survived but suffered from permanent Post Traumatic Syndrome and died in an insame asylum in Paris in 1935. Here was a genius who had created the most beautiful melodies and received international acclaim. Why would any government arrest and deport a priest composer? Daniel Varoujan, one of our leading poets of the time, was also in that group. Balakian writes, "Then they drew their daggers and attacked them, ripping their bodies apart and slashing their legs and arms and other sensitive parts. Only Varoujan defended himself, and as a punishment, after gutting him, the criminals dug out the eyes of the patriotic poet."
Here is the link to Nune Yessayan's rendition of Komitas' most famous songs, "Dle Yaman". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otsRwBBcNOg
It has always been dedicated to our Genocide victims. I am also dedicating it to my grandmother's memory. She had lost her parents and younger brother in the Genocide. She lived and died yearning for them.
Gitem Armenian jan.. Gitem.. Ashxatum em.. hesht chi calm linel yerp vor apush martik irants apush commentnerov indz u im joghovurtin en ampatvum..
bayts inch arats mer taq aryuna hosuma ver yerakneri mech... :)
Astvats mer het..
Gayane
Robert,
You are so funny sir. Wow.. i did not know you are not only an ignorant and in denial Turk but you are also a comedian. thank you for the laugh...especially when you said that we are afraid of the truth.. now that took the prize...
What truth are you talking about? The truth that your govt wants you to know and you and your kind trying to spread? what a joke.. what a comedy.. please.. stop.. you are killing us with your humor...
I suggest that you take yourself and your "brothers" ... you know.. Amhet, AB and whoever else belongs to your bloody gang and posts somewhere else.. As we already shot you down with the real truth, there is no room for your truth.. actually i should there is no room for your lies... obviously it will be waste of time for you to continue to voice your lies..so why are you upset .. because your lies have been deleted? aweeee.. that is just sad.. but don't worry... there will be many many more times where individuals, groups, cities and countries will delete and void many more of your lies.. this site will not be the only one.. get use to it..
THERE IS NO ROOM FOR LIES.. (emphasizing and not yelling).my dear sir...
Oh.. one more thing... I believe you got it all wrong in regards to Armenians ( I assume you are referring to the Armenians because this site is managed by the Armenians) having low self-esteem... I believe the real low self-esteem carriers are the Turks... who hide behind protocols, who cover the truth by trying to spread the lies among its citizens and enforce laws punishable to those who utter the word GENOCIDE...i think the whole Turkey itself spells out low self-esteem... but then again you would not agree with that. because low self-esteem people who have lots of things to hide always deny the fact that they are as such.. it is sad but know sir Robert, it is the TRUTH..
Thank you for the laugh..
God Bless
G
No matter how many generations Armenians live among odars, they still act like Ottomans in that they just can't let it go when a debate goes nowhere. It's one of the few things I admire about odars, they can say their peace and let it go.
Robert, are you being repetitive? We Armenians are no different to each other (with censorship and attacks) than we are you turks, so don't flatter yourself too much. Why not take your "dialogue" (diarrhea) to a more open and public forum if you feel so strongly? Do you really think any nationalist will succeed at convincing their "enemies" of anything on THEIR forums?
You're welcome to email me if you're feeling so neglected for Haigagan attention, despite your gender ;-)
U.S. of America is no longer a champion of Human rights defender while colludes with Turkey, Israel & Azerbaijan.
Tell me with whom you go and I tell you what you are.
Where is the freedom of speech? None of my posts has been published. Let's do it this way then. You tell me what to post in this forum, then I will write it down, and post it to the forum. This is just a shame.
I Do Still Cry,
Where’s My Land
Where is my land
I feel orphaned
Since a century dart.
Where ever we stay
We feel in demand.
We feel every love
Working hearty-hard.
Giving beyond
Any one can give
With ‘Genial Smiles.’
Our keenness
Has never seen end
As our senses fit right.
Even to greenless sand.
We live on Earth
Have ever you heard
Belonged to any else?
All must soon sigh.
But...like to die
Under the shade of a green tree
Where my ancestors
Planted even before BBC
There …dined and danced;
Still their soulful incenses
Breathe there
Hence no-where!
I want to smell
Before I sigh
How can I lie
In an undefined-
Soulless lay.
March 22, 2010
I strongly believe that Turkish-Armenian protocols will help the development and improvement in the relationship between two neighboring nations. I hope that this protocol becomes the first of the more possible protocols to get the relationship back to a more civil way. Lifting the border blockade by both parties would have been a good step to let people to cross the border and know each other and understand each other.
I see many good signs particularly among the younger people from both nations who are not interested in an archaic war almost a century old. The young politicians will do much better than what we have been doing. They are much smarter and wiser. Our ancestors created their own faith, positive or negative, now it is the turn of young people to shape their future.
I expect more similar protocols between Azerbaijan and Armenia. That will bring peace and eventually prosperity to the people of Caucasus area.
Shaping and determining the politics with the past's events are for the short-sighted politicians who seek to get more votes from non-intellectual people.
Peace will prevail.
To Mehmet: I normally refrain from responding to a Turk. What can a civilized Armenian, or Greek, or Assyrian, whose culture, arts, entrepreneurial mastery, and rich history are world-renowned for millennia, try to say to a representative of nomadic Seljuk tribes that appeared in the Armenian Highlands from the steppes of Central Asia only in 11th century, spreading fire and sword over indigenous peoples inhabiting the land for millennia? A representative whose modern republic was founded only in the 20th century on blood and bones of many civilized nations? What can I say to a brainwashed Turk, whose controversial Article 301 in the Penal Code makes it illegal to insult Turkey, the Turkish ethnicity, or Turkish government institutions? Prominent French writer Victor Hugo has described the influence of the Turks in the following lines: “Les Turcs ont passé a tout est ruine et deuil.” (The Turks have traversed there, all is ruin and mourning.) Fellow Muslim Arabs used to describe the Turks the following way I one of their songs:
Three things naught but evil work--
The locust the vermin, and the Turk.
How can I talk to a representative of a nation whose ‘civilized’ grandparents burnt and buried Armenians alive, raped virgins in front of their families, stripped Christian pastors in front of their parishioners, organized death marches to the Syrian deserts, burnt people in caves, drowned them in Euphrates river and the Black Sea, and deported the people en masse? And when the natural outrage against these heinous crimes comes out of the Armenian descendents of these victims, a Turk dares to call us ‘racists.’ Moreover, he takes an offense when all civilized nations in the world call them bloodthirsty based on their knowledge on what indescribable tortures Turks performed on Armenians and others. He invited us to have a ‘sensible history knowledge’… Us, Armenians, who are known on ancient maps from the 2nd millennium B.C., like that of Ptolemy, in the records of great historians, travelers, geographers, warriors like Alexander the Great, and philosophers like Xenofonte. Whose own works in these disciplines now adorn leading libraries in Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia, and the U.S. He dares to charachterize national-liberation movements and uprisings of the indigenous Balkan peoples and Armenians in Western Armenia, who were enslaved by the Ottomans for hundreds of years, as ‘population exchanges,’ ‘Turco-Russian war migrations,’ or ‘Balkan wars migrations.’ I just learnt from a Turk that liberating a nation from a Turkic yoke is considered ‘shameless.’ Wow!
As for Muslim people of the Caucasus, they are just extensions of Seljuk-Turk invasions, some of whom had settled in the region. Where are these Muslims now? Simple. In a ‘nation’ that’s been created only in the 20th century and stole its name from a historical province in Iran – in Azerbaijan. As for Yerevan, the name of which (to add to your ‘sensible history knowledge’) derives from Erebuni, a city of Armenian state of Urartu, the ruins of which are still preserved in the vicinity of Yerevan. As for Muslims residing in Yerevan, they once, indeed, were above 50% of the population for a couple of decades in the 19th century, but our sensible history knowledge suggests that these provinces were guberbniyas (provinces) of the Russian Empire, and Yerevan (called Erivan,and never ‘Revan’, at the time) was just a provincial city, just like Kars was a city in another Russian province of Kars, now occupied by the Turks. Our sensible history knowledge also suggests that the mainland of Armenians historically were in the Western Armenia (which Turks now call ‘Eastern Anatolia’), and only a smaller part - current Republic of Armenia and Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh) and a province in Georgia – constituted an Eastern Armenia.
One last thing. The world knows what Turks have done to Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Babylonians, Arabs, and Kurds, and not the other way around. Massive undeniable historical evidence exists in the leading international repositories, archives, and witness accounts. And sooner or later, the Turks will be punished for their crimes against humanity. If you believe in God, you should know that crimes against fellow human beings never go unpunished.
To Adana,
Please don't truth with fiction.Armenians you write "all Armenians weren't betrayers.This IN ITSELF A WRONG CONCEPTION.THE ARMENIANS DID NOT "BETRAY"THEY STOOD UP DEMANDING JUSTICE-a few Fedayiins with few arms.THAT IS NOT BETRAYAL.IF YOU MEAN THE LATER EVENTS WHEN ARMENIANSW FOUGHT BACK AT SARDARABAD KARABEKIR, having armenian officdrs and generas trained by Russians,THEN DON'T FORGET THAT AT THE TIME THE OTTOMAN TURKISH ARMIES WERE ALSO TRAIEND BY...German officers..MOREOVER ..THE ARMEIANS ,AS ANY OTHER POEPL/NATION WISHED TO BE RID OF OTTOMAN RULE-PICTURE IN YOUR MIND ALL THE BALKAN PEOPLES,BULGARIANS GREEKS ETC., THAT WERE UNDER harsh ottoman rule,LATTER HAVING INVADED THEIRR LANDS AND THEN STOOD UP GOT ARMED AND drove out the ottoma turks/
THAT...IS A GOD GIVEN RIGHT!!! to get back one's land home,throw the invader out.
aother example for you and your friends.
north african morish tribes ,khaliphates had invaded and ruled another country 600 years...very much like the ottoman turks over armenia...
then a princess united the princes and drove the invadors out of S P A I N ...and WAS PROCLAIMED QUEEN OF SPAIN ,IZABEL LA CATOLICA..
SOME MORE HISTORY NO, NOT FOR YOU OR YOUR COMATRIOTS ONLY..ALSO FOR ARMENIANS HERE.
a battel that took placce on th high seasMEDITERRANEAN, CALLED "la BATALLY DEL LEPANTO"" the ottoman turkish vs the spanis armada.latter crushed the OTOMANS and destroyed their NAVY THAT WERE TRYING TO ...
I think this will suffice for today...
If you don't want to read ranting people this is not the publication for you. Still, there ought to be some filtering. Mr Fatih calls for consideration of history and then comes up with an incoherent list of out of context "facts" desigened to elicit sympathy for his chosen ones and prove the guilt of Armenians. Come on guys, get this goof ball some books.
I was there in Arakelots first time in 2001 with Srpazan Ashjian, and in 2004 with ARS, and 3rd time with a small group from Yerevan. We were not allowed inside the church, all 3 times, we prayed outside by the walls of the church.
You are lucky to be able to get in.
Tanner Akcam is an "interfaith" angel, unfortunately,without wings.
Belated response to Armen. Thanks for your response. I freely admit that I have not inquired widely about Orhan Pamuk in Armenia. Perhaps I had bad luck with my sampling. I happen to personally feel that what Orhan Pamuk did was very very important and hope that it can be widely appreciated among Armenians, who apparently do have some friends in Turkey.
Sireli paregam
(in absentia)
I was impressed a month ago when i read the novel "The snow" by orhan pamuk. Something very strange it was inside and between the lines...in a kars today without armenians. may be one day you/ll write a book about 'your'Kars. I am prepared to write some words about your work.
with all my best regards
bedros horasangian
PS My grandparents werw 'agntsi', fron Agn, Eghine today. Turkey, of course.
bh
Hei Mehmet
First of all you should learn to pronounce names correctly. The capital of Armenia is not Revan, but Yerevan, the old Erebouni of the Urartian empire. Armenians were there since 3000 years and there was never a moajority Muslim population in Yerevan. Perhaps at some point when foreign invaders like your ancesters, who came from Central Asia some 600 years ago and settled in the conquered lands, the demography of the land changed to some extent, but at no point in history was there a "majority of Muslim population in Yerevan" (!!!). Not that I am against Muslims, but this is one of the many lies that Pan-Turkists spread in order to justify their cruelties to Armenians and other nations.
By the way, do you know what your own surname means? It means: "invader". Armenians aren not "shamelessly" blaming the invaders for their barbarities. It is those invaders who shamelessly continue to deny the facts and by their own action make themselves objects of ridicule in the eyes of other nations.
Get out of our ancestral lands invader.
Sevan
With all due respect, In a perfect world, we would teach our sons and daughters to abide by the same rules of biblical sanctity, however, our world is nowhere near perfect. Double standards do exist unfortunately and women are still repressed under 'cultural standards', that seem to contradict biblical moral laws. It is crucial for everybody, regardless of gender, to be educated about sex and not be terrified to explore their sexuality, as they deem fit.
There was no suggestion of "hatred" in the original English remark: "Before I met you, Turkish was the language of the enemy. Now it’s the voice of my friend."
. . .hiastani Kars. . .my favorite song! My grandparents came from Kars (Karakala) where after 1918, Turkey took over the area with revenge and according to a great uncle, describes the scene of what happened to his parents and brothers at that time.
It is just a matter of time before Turkey comes face to face with this situation. Too many Turks are discovering and admitting they have Armenian blood with some even converting to Christianity. Today, the younger generation are learning to think independently and are not afraid to challenge. Not all Turks hate Armenians. Interesting relationships can be established just on basic common interests.
Thank You Dr. Akcam,
I'd like to send the same letter with the same things to Mr. Kocharyan a few years later, changing one item in the background -- the Turkish government of the 1910s was massacring ethnic minorities, such as Armenians, whereas Mr. Kocharyan in the end of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st centuries massacred the ones whom he used to call his brothers.
ERDOGEN, is living in his HAPPY FANTASY WORLD, ALL THE CHRISTIAN COUNTRYS' SHOULD kick out TURKISH MUSLIMS, so he can realize where his race of people stand in the world.
THE SWEDISH PM, SHOULD shut the hell up, and stop kissing up to TURKISH MUSLIMS, who the hell is turkey for sweden to apologize, GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK.
When are you going to understand that the only way to see Eastern Turkey is to visit these places as a tourist?
Shenora,
You will discover that many armenians have Turkish blood. you guys lived among the Turks, not the Turks among you.
Laz,
Why dont the armenians in america go back to their natural habitat which is present day yerevan?
Ahmet, when are you going to learn whose history you wish to claim as your own? As long as Turkey needs to do that, then it is Turkey who needs the Armenians and lives on a lie.
Very well put V. Mavlian...'we are never better than our best friend(s)"
"Is there any other nation on earth, so shamelessly blaiming[blaming] another nation for exactly what they have done?"
Mehmet Fatih, yes, there is only one nation on earth is called the Republic of Turkey. Turks lost their privilege being called a human race after killing millions of human beings under the color of human race. Therefore, if Armenian are racist, which they are not, they cannot be racist against Turks because there is no such human race called Turks. Thus, your accusations against Armenians are baseless.
That is convoluted reasoning Ahmet. Many Turks have Armenian blood which is discovered on a growing basis in Turkey. Thousands of Armenians during the genocide alone were forcibly converted or chose to live as Muslims to escape certain death. Thousands or Armenian orphans were raised by Turks and Kurds. It was Turks who arrived into Asia Minor and conquered, slaughtered, raped and enslaved countless Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Kurds, Georgians, etc. Armenians did not choose to live with Turks, it was forced on them. It was Turks and Kurds who use brute force against the Armenians and survived by a system of robbery and baksheesh against their Christian subjects.
It is NOT the job of Armenians to "reform" Turkey, as desirable as that may be. We are not their psychiatrists or their nannies.
Genocide denial is not just the simple negation of an act; it is much more the consequent continuation of the very act itself. Genocide should not only physically destroy a community; it should likewise dictate the prerogative of interpretation in regard to history, culture, territory and memory; as the victims, Armenians never existed.
The Turkish have not only murdered humans, destroyed an ancient culture and civilization, and rewritten history, Turkey continues to legitimize the act as well as the racist ideology that led to the act. This includes the legitimization of any and all stereotyping of the Armenian people as a dangerous enemy, as a deadly bogeyman in the closet.
Denial is the final step in the completion of a mass extermination - and the first step towards the next genocide.
Ahmet,
it's the Turks that have the blood of Armenians and other nationalities that lived in the Ottoman Empire. Did you ever wonder why you don't look like your Mongol ancestors?
Armenians never wanted to mix with you. They didn't rape your women, they didn't kidnap your children and force them to become Christian. In fact, none of the nations under Turkish rulers wanted to have anything common with you or have a piece of you. It's the Turks who did all of the above. Modern Turks have Bulgarian, Greek, Armenian, Assyrian, Croatian, Albanian and other blood.
Also, when are you going to understand that the only way you can visit Artsakh is as a tourist?
Ahmet, when will you learn your history and understand that Armenia was already there; you (turks) came in the 13th ceintury from central Asia, occupied our native land, tried to destroy our three- millenium old civilization, criminally tried to mix our blood with your blood in order to acquire our wisdom; but you are still the same uncivilized barbaric nation, you will never change, you are a hopeless case; you will knock at Europe's door for another thousand years and no one will open the door; your place is not there, that land is Armenian and Greek , you will have to go back to where you came from, you have lived far too long amongst us, you are no longer wanted on those lands; but we, Armenians are still here despite your genocidal intentions to destroy us; we have liberated Artsakh, and we intend to liberate more.
"Turkish Muslims" ??? The Swedish PM apologized Turkey. There is nothing about religions here. Try to be objective. How much do you know about the " so called" genocide??
Ahmet, with all due respect, your words are arrogant and wanton.....
You will discover that despite the calamity that has devoured my family my blood is 100% Armenian. My grandparents come from Kharpert (Yegheki), Chomaklou, Kayseri, and Cemikezek. If I return to Western Armenia it definitely will not be as a tourist. The house my grandfather built in Kayseri still exists. Label me at your convenience, but a tourist is the last thing I will be considered.
The world populace, politicians ,
And every human who blinds his eyes
Protecting the slayers
Let them know.
Let them know.
This is a prove
They have done before
They will do it more
Without feeling shames
In their guilty cores.
Those days is very easy
To know the origin of ethnicities,
by analyzing the DNAs.
Dear Mary,
Don't use religion in this case.
Saudi King Abdulla will not say this,
They have a great respect to Armenians
Many of their grandmothers were Armenians.
Turks entered Islam in 13th century.
They are killing Kurds as well,
Those are Muslims and Sunni like them.
And trying to invade all Arab countries once again ,
Already invaded Syria.
All are becoming facts .
Dear Ahmet
It seems that you do not know your own history and what ever they teach you at your schools (If you gone school ,I dont know) are false and not the truth. Please go back and ask your elderlies thay will tell you the truth. Dear Ahmad could you ask yourself ,what does the 10th century church do in Kars which is converted to a mosk, have you ever seen a mosk with that desigen and constraction. Please go to the museum of Kars and ask about all what is there , please ask your elderly about that ,dont ask your History teacher, because he does not know like you. go and ask an old woman and (ask her to talk without fear,and tell her to say the truth) you will be surprised what she will tell you. Then you will find out that 90% of the population of Kars ,before 1917 were armenians , and do not be surprised that may be your grand mother was armenian . And sooner or later that city will return to Armenia like the other parts of western Armenia ( what you call it now Estern Turky ) That day is not too far and prbobly you will see that during your lifetime.Please go and read the History books, but please find the real history book. If you can not find it send me an Email I will send you some . Thank you Mr. Ahmet sorry I dont know your last name to call you by that . We will meet some day in Kars and talk and you will find the Truth ,
With best regards Vartan
Please don't play games we will complain,
are you paid by many to cleanse,
let us know.
Ahmad is the prophet’s Muhammad’s name; that arises from word 'hamada'
(to be thankful), but Turkish people write 'Ahmet', which is Turkish name and never Arabic.
If they want to write properly from real origin they should write 'Ahmad'
it is not accepted to end by letter t or et.
May be Ahmet is a name in Turkish and never Arabic of 'Al-Quran alkareem'.
Even if you put Ahmet in Internet, a red line will show underneath, that indicates rejection.
Wow what a good and an honest man you are dear Mr. Akcam, my hat's off to you. Indeed the Muslims in the Middle East were very good to us all Armenians after the Genocide. They took us all in and let us share their lands by making us their citizens and we had every right to live, multiply and have a great livelihood in the Middle East; plus we were able to have our Churches, our schools, our get-to-gethers in our wonderful halls and even have seats in their parliaments, such was the numerous cases in Lebanon and probably elsewhere too. Indeed some Muslim Turks and Muslim Kurds had a good heart and kept many Armenians from being massacred in 1915 (I have heard of it myself from sources). Some Muslims indeed have tried. The one's that killed atrociously, barbarically and murderously were the ones that were hired by Talaat Pasha and the rest of the Unionists, who also let out their worst convicted murderers out of prisons to do the dirty jobs for them as they did to some hired Turks, Kurds and their Gendarmes. Because Mr. Akcam, it is true that the Koran believes in the same God as we do Christians believe, and God does not allow innocent people and civilians en masse to be murdered, just because they also believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The Koran doesn't ever say that. It was very unfortunate though that the Turkish elite in the 1900's were extremely weak and they let outside sources like the CUP (Talaat/Enver/Gemal/Dr. Nazim) to rule their own country and use their own Turkey, the Turkish land and the Turkish people to commit the first Genocide of the twentieth century from 1915 through 1923. Indeed in 1922 it was Kemal Ataturk who charged into Smyrna and had the Turkish gendarmes kill 130,000 Armenian civilians (my grandmother's 150 members were amongst them, only 5 out of 150 of them survived), then right after that, Kemal Ataturk went after the civilian Greeks and had them annihilated. We understand Dr. Akcam, that it wasn't the Turkish government who was ruling Turkey in 1915; but it was the CUP - the Unionists who originally were exiled from Spain and came to Turkey as Turkey opened their doors to them in the 1600's era, and they were (the CUP) was the ones who plotted against the civilian Armenians' killings which practically made them to be of an extinct race. However, the Turkish government of today must accept the crimes against the 1.5 Million Armenians' killings; because it was the Turkish government of 1915 who have committed the Armenian Genocide.
Maybe if this family gets to a higher place with their military and educational backgroundd, Armenians will be in a better position while representing this great nation and tell the Armenian history and someone will finally listen! Remember freedom is not free and these guys will fight so you can maintain your freedom of speech. It works both ways.
Ahmet, I did visit Kars and fell in love with it. We thought we found the village of Karakala, but later realized there are four to five KK's in the Kars region. In God's time, I will return and continue the search.
Ahmet...I have been to Turkey several times and I truly love all of it...from Sultanahmet Cami to Karatay Cami to Akhtamar church, etc, etc, etc. It is all amazing and wonderful, and we haven't even mentioned restaurants or food or music, which are all exceptional... along w/ the raki!
If the money produces one more Orhan Pamuk or Taner Akcam it will be worth it. Centers of Study attract those who are curious. Just the fact that Akcam grew up in Western Turkey he could see that there once were other people living here. He was curious. He made a point of finding out Turkish Responsibility as told in his book "A Shameful Act".
Turkey is not going to educate Turks on negative aspects of its History. Let's hope that with Carnegie money, the curious will take advantage of these learning centers.
Listen, Ahmet oglu –
What you call 'Eastern Turkey' is historical Western Armenia that existed millennia before your nomadic Seljuk tribes came from the steppes of Central Asia to the area (known in geography as Armenian Plateau) in only 11th century and ruthlessly invaded and enslaved indigenous peoples who've been living in these lands for millennia. These ancient civilizations (Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc.) created world-renowned arts, sciences, architecture, trade and commerce. Everything has been scorched by the sword of your barbarian hordes, who only in 14th century established the prison of nations and sick man of Europe – the Ottoman Empire.
Armenians were invaded by the Turks in the 14th century and had to live under their yoke up until 1915 – the year of Genocide. But instead of making stupid statements, try to ask yourself: where were Turks before the 14th century? If you find the answer from unbiased and non-Turkish historical sources, then try to ask yourself who lived on those lands as a master and who appeared there as an invader?
As for ‘Armenians having Turkish blood’, please be aware that one of the barbarian methods of race extermination that the Turks performed during the Armenian genocide (along with burning and burying people alive, raping girls in front of their families, butchering men in front of their families, ripping off pregnant women’s bellies, killing newborns with bayonets, organizing death marches and deliberate starvation en masse), your barbarian savage forefathers also had a practice of converting scores of Armenian Christian children into Islam and selling Armenian virgin girls to your filthy Muslim harems. This is where many Turks might have noble Armenian blood.
One last note. Actually there are two ways for Armenians to visit Western Armenia: 1)when Turkey finds the courage to recognize that in 1915-1921 the Ottoman government perpetrated genocide of Armenians and deprived them of their native lands; and 2)wait just another decade or two and see how your artificial state of Turkey, that was built on the lands of others with fire and sword, disintegrates into pieces.
No worries, it is probably safer than any place in Armania :)
The Turkish-Armenian protocols might have helped the development and improvement in the relationship between the two nations had they contained a single phrase: “Governments of Turkey and Armenia hereby express intention to establish diplomatic relations and open the border.” PERIOD. This is the normal diplomatic practice. But since these protocols contain preconditions like the creation of historical commission on the fact of the Genocide, acknowledgment of all existing borders in the region, acceptance of all previous treaties, etc. and are evidently being tied by the Turks to the resolution of an issue that has no relation whatsoever to the Turkish-Armenian relations (read: Nagorno-Karabakh), Armenians do not trust, as they never did, and hardly ever will, these cheap Turkish tricks.
While some of the younger people may not be interested in archaic wars, with Armenian youth there is such a thing as genetic memory that runs in the blood of virtually everyone, because virtually everyone’s great- or grandparents witnessed or escaped the indescribable Turkish horrors and barbarity. As long as their victim complex is not relieved by the Turkish acknowledgment of the heinous crime against humanity - the Armenian Genocide, this memory will be haunting the youngsters however uninterested some of them may be.
The Armenian Cause goes beyond shaping and determining the contemporary politics, because as a result of the Genocide Armenians were deprived of their ancestral homeland in which they’ve been living for millennia. It is a great pain, outrage, and uncontrolled feeling of revenge for the millions of butchered, burnt and buried alive, ripped off, drown and left starve men, women, infants, and the elders. Politics based on the past’s events might be short-sighted for the bought and paid-for politicians, but for the nations who determine their future there is no future without the past. Being one of the ancient peoples inhabiting the earth, Armenians cherish their past as they contributed immensely to the human civilization in arts, architecture, sciences, trade and commerce.
There’s no future without the past.
Before Peace Justice must prevail.
Hey uha-ha-ha1, if you were writing your comment while thinking how in 'safe' Turkay intellectuals like Hrant Dink are shot in the daylight in downtown Constantinople, then think agai ( if you can) and re-write your comment...
Es OV er????
Arzu obviously we know more about The Armenian Genocide than you...
Wow...
G
Let me ask you a simple question. If this such a great deal for the Turks and such a bad deal for the Armenians how come the Turks don’t want to sign it? Why are they dragging their feet? And why on the other hand has Armenia been ready to sign it from Day 1?
Why do so many of you here sound like FOX News sound bites?
Armania?
... Never heard of such a place.
Ahmed,
Why don't you go and have a good "hamam" in AtaTurk famous bathhouse....you will refresh your Turkish blood line among Turks, while having a good massage...
As for the blood issue, Armenian or Turkish blood? Personally, I wouldn't care what blood I have in my veins. Actually, who can claim what kind of blood they have. In this geography, intermarriages have happened over the centuries, and I like people of ethnic origins mixing with people from other ethnic roots. Remember, in the last century, millions of people fell victim to nationalism. I hope, the next generation will erase the remains of nationalism from the face of the earth.
Dear Khatchig:
I am very happy that in our Arakelots ancient Church you quietely prayed the Hayr Mer for yourself and you subsequently prayed for all of us here in the Diaspora too. However I wholeheartedly agree with Steve's comment above, please do be careful. Truthfully, I prayed for your safety home and to come back to your family safe and sound, as one never knows in there what's next.
Arto jan,
Please bare in mind that you are not talking to clear-minded mature adults... Any obvious or logical question and/or comment you make will go right over the heads of these intellectual midgets... As long as Armenia fits their narrow/limited genocide obsessed expectations and perspectives it would not matter to them if our homeland forever sinks into poverty, isolation, stagnation and insignificance. Sadly, the diaspora is becoming a real security risk for Armenia...
Shat-shat sireli enker khmbagir...
What happened to my health advisory about the intake of too much fluoride making people stupid/docile? This is serious. Please advise you readership to avoid fluoride toothpastes and to stop drinking fluoride laced municipal tap water...
poor ahmet.
he says one thing, and everyone attacks. we look like starved dogs ready to attack the first (and however insignificant) piece of flesh that speaks.
they're right- the new generation is more independent. turkey is trying to change. <trying> and <succeeding> are two different words however.
but speaking to the article, it's good- enjoy turkey- the places, try to see the people in a little better light than we do. we stereotype them when we shouldn't. i'm ashamed of myself. they are humans too- no matter how wrong they are.
i'm wanting to read more.
thank you.
He is missed tremendously
All of us we need to analyze our DNAs.
In Oprah's show Dr. Mohamed Oz genes were analyzed and showed he had Jewish DNAs, although he him self knows that he is Turkish in origin.
This indicates that there is no pure gene, we can have many types of genes.
We should fight to protect humans' right, that should be our duty and prevent every genocide every where before it starts.
I recall some commentators' arguments in various discussion forums on top of Serge Sarkissian's failed assurances in favor of these defeatist protocols stating, in particular, that the historical commission by no means relates to the Genocide and puts the fact of the Genocide in question. Well, here you go, morons. Look how the issue is being manipulated by America's top foreign policy executive and how Armenia's signature in the protocols is being used to foreign power centers' advantage who by Armenia's hands attempt to press on Turkey to open the borders for furthering their economic and geostrategic interests. What an unforgiving mistake Serge has made by succumbing to the pressure of soulless, indifferent Western players. A leader, however unelected and unwanted he is, must have guts to oppose the pressure. If he can't, then at least have the courage to walk away with dignity. What amount of harm Serge has done to the nation of Armenia! Ihope the capitulating protocols are dead. I really do...
While all this history is very true and accurate, let's not forget, time moves forward, not backward. For people to think they can or should turn the clock back 1000 years is a bit ridiculous. Let's face it...the milk was spilled very long ago folks. It can't be put back in the bottle. Get used to it. We have our azad Haiastan...let's work to keep it that way. Longing for something you can't have and haven't had control of for 1000 years is a bit psychotic, if you ask me.
In addition to his sexual orientation, the 'founder' of the 'modern' Turkish state had a proven record of being of Jewish origin and a Freemason. What can we expect of millions more ordinary Turks who don't even know their true identity. Such artificial 'nations' don't last long in historical terms...
Don't let me be misunderstood here. I personally on the side that both Countries should sign the protocols, and make more protocols like that one. Getting the relationships between the Armenian and Turkish People is more essential than anything else. None of those who committed the crime in question is living today, but I think our children deserve a better world. Getting Armenia and Turkey and their citizens to higher levels, both economically and socially, must be considered seriously by the politicians.
If I were the prime minister of Turkey, I would have opened the borders on the first day of my duty. Peoples are the suffering parties, because of the idiot politicians.
I am very much against the expulsion of the Armenians living and working in Turkey. The Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan, made very absurd comment on this point, and his threat is totally unacceptable. Other way around, I wish so much, to have more Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians etc. in this country which would add greatly to the richness of culture.
Talking about human losses, I am telling here again, in this geography, I know few people who hadn't lost some of their family members, including myself.
And Justice doesn't exist. Justice changes acoording to the window you are looking out of. I don't know even one single person, who believes in justice. Should we stop looking for justice? No.
I LIKE GINA'S BRIEFING AND KAREKIN'S THAT RATHER TRY TO EXPLAIN HISTORY AND TRUTH HIT THE RIGHT POINTS THAT A H M E T UNDERSTANDS BEST. THOUGH I UNDERSTNAD YOU PEOPLE TRYING TO EDUCATE HIM,YOU FAIL TO UNCERSTAND THAT 70 YRS TEACHINGS CANNOT BE ERASED JUST BY THOSE FEW /SEVERAL LINES YOU WRITE.
STICK TO STYLE THAT GINA AND KAREKIN EMPLOY...
AND DON'T FORGET-I AM IMPARTIAL-WHO MADE GREAT TURKEY AS IT IS TODAY...
THEYA RE COMPLICIT IN CREATING IT.I ONLY HOPE THEIR "khers" DOES NOT FLARE UP...FOR AT THAT THEY ARE BEST.NONETHELESS THEY ALS WATCH T.V. AND SAW THAT THE RRRRUSSIAN SENT UP MISSILES WITH 3 TIMES THE SPEED OF SOUND.MS HILLARY NEXT FLEW OVER TO DISCUSS DISMANTLING MORE NUKES MUTUALLY...
KEEP ABREAST OF THE NEWS FELLAS LADIES...
JSHMARIDIAN!!!
CHANGE YOUR NAME TO "sdakhosian"
YOU COMPARE DEATH OF TWO PEOPLE AND THAT AT A RIOT,WHEN ALSO COPS WERE KILLED TOO.
HOW DARE YOU YOU ....
GO JOIN WITH THE LIKE OF YOURS. HERE IS NOT THE PLACE TO UTTER SUCH JSHMARDTYUNK...
your place is there with them..not amongst HYES
To Ahmet Efendi..
Armeians of America (North) and south , then France,RRRRRussia are desirous to go to where they came from ,say Lake Van Area, Kars, Erzeroum, Yerznga etc.,
Yerevan they go too, indeed, as the only place they can breath and feel Armenian and then feel more Nostalgia for mentioed areas..
learn a bit willya?
Personally, I'd like to see President Obama send Hillary Clinton to Der Zor for an extended vacation. Bon Voyage, Hillary.
Arzu,
I know a lot about the Genocide. I heard it first hand from my grand parents. How much do you know about Turkish denialism?
Ahmed,
Giver yourself a break from your denialist government and go and read our sane Republic's head of state Mr. Sarkisian's message to the Syrian president in Der El Zor, where our nation was put the nail on the coffin in 1915. Sarkissian is speaking the ultimate truth, NOT your Davutoglu. Davutoglu is only continuing the denyalist trend of your nation and putting more shame on them. The truth has prevailed already, get a grip on it.
Dear Editors,
I'll thank you for publishing my two commentaries/posts above. Thank you.
Nairian
Dear Khatchig, Something came to mind now when you said above that you prayed the Hayr Mer in the Arakelots Church quietly to yourself today in 2010. Whereas in 1915 when our beloved nation was being taken to ditches after being atrociously killed, many of them knowing ahead of time that they were about to be killed; they used to say the Hayr Mer quietly to themselves before their doomed death. And many more women and girls after 1916 when they were taken away by Turks and Kurds and were forced to become Moslems, they would also say the Hayr Mer quietly to themselves. Today your quietly praying our Hayr Mer in our Arakelots Church reminded me of what I have heard from my elders and what I read in numerous books, including in Aram Haygaz' book. It seems to me that nothing has changed since then.
I am glad Mr. Sarkissian said these very touching -that brought tears to my eyes- and very truthful words. I am glad, because he practically covered everyone that denies and keep on denying by playing (real polytik). His words were directed to that woman Hillary Clinton, it was directed to Davutolu and his entire denyalist anscestors the Turkish government, his words were directed to the denyalist Britain, the U.S.' Obama, to the Swiss' Prime Minister who apologyzed to the denyalist Turkey; and finally to the entire civilized world who ignored the Armenian Genocide and our Martyrs' pleas and also us, "the heirs" of the our Martyrs since 95 years. Indeed, when will our Nurembourg take place? When??????
Yes dear Mr. Sarkissian, I am very happy that you uttered these truthful words.
Hye, For one correction on the above post above, I was referring to Frederick Reinfeldt, the prime minister of Sweden, not Swiss', who very unjustifiably apologyzed to the Turkish government, because Sweden's parliament accepted the Armenian Genocide resolution. Shame on him for afterh 95 years to make "real polytik" with the Turkish denialist government, he is disgracefully denying the Armenian Genocide to play politics with the Turks.
I wonder how many of the targeted Armenian deportees this time around come from families who originally hailed from Western Armenia? If Erdogan wants to make good on his promise to 'send them back to their country,' then Turkey should be issuing citizenship permits to these Armenians and not deportation slips. Moreover, for those who say it's logical for Armenians to be "sent back to their country," then let the Turkish people return to theirs: Central Asia.
Shat lav asetsir Kiazer....
Shat havanetsi qo reply@....
Gayane
Ahmet: Because their natural habitat is in Turkish-occupied Armenia.
AB - until you read the history books which tell the truths of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation you do not know that which you think are truths. And, do not refer to the Turkish history books - for your leaders have made certain that the Turkish history books omitted the truths of the Turkish Genocides against the Armenians, Greek, Assyrians and the Kurds. (Your leaders deliberately want their citizens to hate the Armenians - victims of the Turkish Genocides). Using the most hideous forms of torture, kidnapping, (so many grandmothers of Turks were Armenian women taken against their will) slaughters, bandinados which the victims feet were beaten until they bled and then swelled and burst - then death! And more... If at all you are aware/knowledgeable the Turkish Genocide has been pursued for many years too - now of the Kurdish peoples.
More, today young Armenians and Kurds together are bringing attention to the 15 year old young Kurdish girl who has been sentenced to a Turkish jail (notoriously vile) for the next eight (8) years of her life - for being in the wrong place at the wrong time - accused of calling names to a Turkish policeman. I hope this policeman, and the judge who sentenced her have daughters at their homes - and see this young child each and every time they are with such young daughters.... knowing the fate they have given her!
You are in a culture which lies to their own citizens... you are programmed to believe the leaderships of Turkey - sadly, these leaders, have for nearly 100 years lied to you, their own Turkish citizens. Sad for a Turkey, sad to be near such a neighbor for Armenia - as the Turks still pursue actions to 'eliminate' the Armenians - still today 1915-2010. Turkey today is still suffering from Ottoman mentality. Turkey glitters to the world - but Turkey within is decaying, decayed and facing their destiny - before the world. Manooshag
Philip Gordon says these things not just because he represents the US State Department but because he'll need a job after he quits the government.
What better job than to serve as a bootlicking paid lobbyist for Turkey and Israel?
He gets to make money and serve his two real homelands too, instead of his adopted country, the US, which he really has very little in common with from every standpoint - if you get my drift.
OK then, let's talk about Germany.
It helped Turkey commit genocide against the Armenian people during WW I. Germany used Armenian men as slave labor and worked them to death. What did Armenians ever do to Germans to deserve this? What or who gave these German thugs and brutes the idea that they had the right to use Armenians as slave labor?
Moreover, it is known that German officers helped lead attacks against Armenian civilians.
We have let Germany off the hook. This is not a proud thing for us as a people.
A lot of people don't know this, but it appears that Germany has never unequivocally acknowledged the Armenian genocide by using the "G word" in a proper and honest context.
Look at the German Parliament resolution of 2005:
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.339/current_category.7/affirmation_detail.html
The only use of the G word is in English translation from the German. And, as far as I can see, it does not say that Germany itself believes there was a genocide. No, rather it just says that many historians and countries "describe" it as "genocide. That is a clear evasion of responsibility by Germany.
Germans murdered innocent Armenians and has yet to do anything about it, nor have we Armenians done anything about this as far as I know.
Thank you Khatchig. We have never met, but now for the first time in my life I hope to see this part of our history, lost to my grandparents in Kharpert once upon a time.
Our esteemed Sec. of State said, "I have said many times we cannot change the past we inherit. All we can do is try to have a better future." I would love to hear her same the same about the six million Jews who were murdered. The American government has been and will continue to be in Turkey's pocket as long as trade (dollars) and air bases remain at their disposal. Disgraceful. Obama, and Bush, Clinton and others before them, should be ashamed. And America wonders why the majority of the world thinks poorly of her.
Hye, Hilary,
Borders are scratched across the hearts of men
By strangers with a calm judicial pen
And when the borders bleed we watch with dread
As the lines of ink along the map turn red
As the lines of the ink along the map turn red.
Marya Mannes
Great article.
The line, 'People from Krypton could have built those churches for all we know.' so describes the sorrow I felt when seeing Ani in 2002. How is it possible that such a monumental site, even in it's current ruined condition, can be made so devoid of anything 'officially' Armenian?
If for nothing else, visits to the Old Country by Armenians, such as this article describes, are so vitally important to keep at least the 'unofficial' Armenian presence alive in these places.
The current protocols are internationally-forced, policy-motivated documents that contain biased, unilateral preconditions suggested by the Turks. For signing them, the Armenian president and his foreign minister have been condemned by the majority of their own citizens and the Armenians of the Diaspora. However, even under such a massive pressure and outrage by their co-ethnics, the Armenian government shows readiness to ratify them. I’d like to repeat in a slightly paraphrased fashion the question of a commentator in this forum: If protocols like these, which you’d like to see more, are a great deal for the Turks and such a bad deal for the Armenians, why the Turks are reluctant to ratify them?” And I’d like to add a question of my own: “How technically is it possible to establish relationships between two peoples when a genocide-perpetrating nation for decades refuses to acknowledge its crime? How can a victim-nation maintain good-neighborly relations with a neighbor who didn’t even apologize for annihilating virtually all Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire?” Would you personally trust such a denialist neighbor, if you transcend from the level of international relations to an ordinary human relationship with a neighbor next-door? I very strongly doubt so.
By the way, Erdogan’s comment on the expulsion of the Armenians living and working in Turkey has fueled even greater suspicion and historical mistrust with the Armenians that “barbaric Turks,” as they internationally came to be known, have miraculously become more civilized and secular in the 21st century. And this is a prime-minister of a nation that knocks on Europe’s door? Forget it as a dream. Especially with a mentality derived from your absurd and insulting note: “None of those who committed the crime in question is living today…” This is a typical Turkish cunning mentality that maybe bought by some others, but not by Armenians. If no criminals are alive today it doesn’t mean that their crime against humanity (note: not a domestic crime of stealing horses from across the border, but the most barbaric, heinous crime of wiping off a whole civilization and depriving Armenians of their historical, ancestral homeland) must be forgotten. Be courageous, go ahead and tell the Jews that what Germans have done to them must be forgotten because no Nazi is living today.” See what their reaction will be, or the Cambodians, or the Ukrainians, or the Greeks, or the Assyrians and the Kurds, or the Darfurians. Crimes against humanity must be acknowledged in order to minimize their occurrence in the future and achieve Peace whose proponent you so fervently are. THIS is the most essential prerequisite to move forward and have peaceful, better world for the children of the two countries. Turkey MUST acknowledge its crime if it, in deeds not just in words, wants to have no problems with its neighbors.
As for the comment re: your desire to “see more Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians, etc. (BTW: not “etc.”, but respectfully: “and the others”) in this country, which would add greatly to the richness of culture”. Well, the peoples you mentioned lived on their lands in Asia Minor for millennia before the arrival of invader nomadic Seljuk tribes from the steppes of Central Asia only in the 11th century A.D. And they had to live under the Turkish Ottoman yoke thereafter beginning the 14th century until they have been wiped out in early 20th century. Although heavily oppressed as religious millet by unjust laws, unbearable taxes, and constant invasions and pogroms by Muslims (Turks, Kurds, Circessians, etc.) Armenians contributed heavily to the Ottoman “culture,” if I may say so, by excelling as outstanding poets, writers, architects, and brilliant entrepreneurs. Many buildings in Constantinople are designed by Armenians, a great many others across the country – churches, monasteries, educational centers, as well as villages, towns, and the whole provinces were intentionally destroyed. I know that my grandfather’s house in Moush still exists, and the home where he and my grandmother lived in Kars, in the district of Bairam Pasha, still exists. They say the district still has the same name now…
One last point before I leave this discussion, as it appears that Turks will never mature to the understanding of a Christian, and all-human, I tend to believe, notion of Repentance. It is one thing that in our geography few people would have lost some of their family members as a result of a war, intercommunal, interreligious, or interethnic violence, famine, etc. But it is quite a DIFFERENT thing when a specific ethnos is subject to an intentional, deliberate, government-planned and executed extermination, as proved by massive amount of archival evidence that most of the leading historians, genocide scholars, international lawyers, increasing number of foreign parliaments, 42 states in the United States of America, and the European Parliament have no doubt whatsoever: a government-planned Genocide of ethnic Armenians. Lastly, when I used the word “Justice: I put a divine rather a mundane meaning into it. I didn’t mean human justice. Had it, indeed, existed, the souls of the millions of innocent Armenian victims would have finally found Peace knowing that their butchers repented. I meant Divine Justice that doesn’t have to change “according to the window you are looking out of,” that is God’s justice which we, Christians, firmly believe. No matter what, sooner or later, denialists of a mass murder will be punished. I know same provisions exist in the Koran, so at this stage I do hope that at least on this point we’d achieve understanding…
To Janine,
My family was from the Kharpert region (in the town of Hussenig) also. Going there was such an amazing experience. I did this on a tour led by Armen Aroyan (of Pasadena). He takes people to the Old Country multiple times each year and makes it a point to find the town where your family lived, in addition to the famous spots like Van and Ani.
Great article... Truly made my heart ache reading about this....
Our Ani.. it is just sooo low to treat our monuments like that...
Hope one day I will go and visit our ancient lands..
G
The Nazi party murdered many peoples and the people who suffered most were the Jews. Germany accepts responsibility for these horrendous acts much like the Turkey of today must accept and further apologize handsomely for the atrocious acts the Ottoman Empire committed against its Armenians. People in forums like this must stay focused as not to lose control. Our sole and primary concern is to rebuild broken boarders which can only be accomplished by tolerance, recognition, and most importantly unbiased education.
Khatchig's vivid portrayal of Historic Armenia with such a personal reflection puts us on the threshold of history and makes us ever more conscious of a civilization gone askew. For those of us who have never visited that country, it's an instant passport to a land of forgotten dreams. Tom Vartabedian
To Avetis: I rarely publish comments, but I read news and discussions and I come accross your comments here and there. What are you essentially propagating, dude? Or, using your vocabulary, what are you obsessed about? That a genetic memory that exists because of the genocide be erased? This will never happen. If you think that our homeland “sinks into poverty, isolation, stagnation and insignificance” because Armenians throughout the world require acknowledgment of the Turkish crime, you must be watching a different show. From the early days of independence, the Armenian government continuously stated that it was open to normalize relations with Turkey without preconditions. Indeed, it had never included the issue of genocide recognition in the foreign policy agenda. But the country is still poor and stagnated despite the enormous aid that’s being provided by the Diaspora Armenians. So don’t you think that mismanagement and governmental self-enrichment rather than genocide recognition must have played the role? As an Armenian from Armenia there’s no doubt in my mind that Diaspora is the only effective policy tool that Armenians have and isolated, singular people like you are either sell-outs or mentally retarded not to understand this.
"The pople fom Krypton built Ani"is a perfect reflection of the destructiv spirit of the goverment of Turkey. Where is the Turkish "Civilization". And Turkey wants to be part of the civilized nations of Europe?
Mr. Sarkissian is looking and sounding like the leader of a nation. With Turkish denial in full throttle and their absurd pre-conditions to the supposed "no pre-conditions" protocols, Sarkissian has been presented with an opportunity to display the tenacity and integrity of the Armenians as its relates to Karabagh and the Genocide. What we are witnessing is the total lack of public credibility of Turkey's campaign. Their public commentary is silly and actually helps the Armenian side( i.e Erdogan's comments, 60 Minutes, etc.). Even most of the Congressmen who voted againstthe resolution argue in the name of current geo-politics and not on the historical facts. The message is clear. Let's remember that it was not too long ago that we used to hear these ridiculous comments from third parties that they weren't sure what happened or there are many views.
Only the Turkish government advances that worn out and denialist view in major public circles. This is real progress. They have become very isolated and increasingly frustrated. Were it not for their political and economic leverage in certain circles, we'd be talking reparitions. As we approach the eve of the 95th
anniversary,take heart Armenian nation, Turkey is in retreat on this issue and they know it. Change is going onwithin Turkish societyand our position is strong.
Khatchig Mouradian, Thank you. One day these lands will be ours again.
Few if any think of pressing for "BLOOD MONEY"..
Shall write about it later...
g.p
Eva jan.. Astvats dzaynt lsi...
Krikor jan... EXCELLENT point.. Turkey cant and does not belong to be part of modern and civilized community.. they don't know what it means to be Civilized people .. unless they start acting like one...
David and Janine.. My great grandparents were from Kharpert, Datem village..
I am praying that one day when I end up staring at our beautiful Ani, it will be on our lands taken back from the Turks...
G
Hi Khatchig: I am glad you have gone to Historic Armenia to see the destruction of not only our Churches, cemetaries, but for you as a writer to record and let the world know what the evil Turk has done not only the Genocide of the Armenian Nation, but all other civilizations it has ravished, not counting the millions of Christians it has Moslemized down thru the centuries. My mother came from a small Village called Goteh, in the Provence of Erzerum where the whole Village was sent on a death march. My mother was married with two children whom one was bayoneted & died and the other starved to dearth after 13 days on the death march. She lost her husband, father, mother, and all her relatives, and was the only survivor from her village. She was rescued by missionaires. My father was in the Turkish Army whom fled & came from a small Village called Sis in the Provence of Shabin Kara Hissar. He also was married and after the war found out they killed his wife, his three children, father & mother, and many relatives, including his brother whom was in the Turkish Army. We wish Armenians would unite to not only help recognition of the Armenian Genocide, but to support Armenia before the Turks & Azeri's invade our small Republic. The Bulgarian's are asking for reparations for what the Turks did to them. Why are we so slow in not asking for Land returns & reparations. The Sevres Treaty is still a valid treaty & that treaty must be pushed before the United Nations & the world powers.
Thank you for the excellent article. I must make a sad point, though. Unfortunately, the preservation of Armenian monuments is an issue not only in Turkey or any other country, but ARMENIA itself. I am afraid you may see such sad-looking churches also in the mother country. So, while we should call for and fight for preserving our monuments elsewhere, the same should be done also WITHIN Armenia.
Dear Zara,
You have a point. Monuments and churches in Armenia are, in some cases, in terrible condition. I would also remind the readers that explosions on the Armenian side of the border not so long ago were further damaging the architectural monuments and churches on Ani.
But, believe me, the devastation, destruction, and neglect I saw in Ani--coupled with the blatant distortion of history--were simply beyond compare. This is a small area where many churches are concentrated, and joint renovation projects should not be difficult to realize. Some of these structures might collapse any moment...
This is a call to both Turkey and Armenia. It's a shared responsibility.
Khatchig Mouradian
How about telling Armenians about their "inconvenient truths"? That takes real decency a rental mouthpiece can not afford it seems.
There is an element of truth in the above though. Turks have been in a process of facing their own failings, cleaning their closets and correcting mistaken policies of their past for a while now. While he describes all this, he is still at the same time calling on them to "face" their history. By that he only means adopting the position of Dashnaks! Of course there are cheers from bleechers! This is the only way he can maintain his presence on these pages.
Does he not know that Turks of Republic of Turkey will consider themselves no more responsible for Ottoman policies than Italian government will take responsibility for the Roman policies or actions? Of course he does. Does he not know that it was nationalism among other things that brought an end to the Ottoman empire, and it was nationalism that made the end of Sick Man of Europe (of Europe!?) so violent. I am not talking about Turkish nationalism by the way. Of course he knows. Doesn't he know all the Armenian myths, the forgeries, propaganda, the blood-feud and racism and hate that fills these pages? Of course he knows. Does he not know that while he preaches open discussion of truth, those who dare to challenge the myths are gagged in some parts of the "civilized" world as a result of Armenian efforts? Of course he does.
People like him are the reason why the discussion of actual truth and facts have been torturous and why Turkish nationalists have found it easy to carry on their agendas. Not the other way around as some here believe.
Just as importantly, where is the Armenian Akcam - pun intended!
Let's face it. Serj Sarkissian's foreign minister's signature is already on the protocols and they've been sent to the Armenian parliament for ratification. Thus, the damage has already been done to the Armenian Cause. Serj should have thought about the consequences of his actions BEFORE he succumbed to the pressure of foreign powers.He should have also consult his own citizens and the Disporans on the isue BEFORE getting involved in such a dangerous endevour. This is what national leaders, in a true sense of the word, do.
What he appears to be doing now is 1) rehabilitating himself in the eyes of the Diaspora who, along with his own citizens in Armenia, have vastly condemned his stance on the protocols; and 2) attempting to strengthen the Armenian position on the Genocide issue that's been weakened by his agreement on a protocol provision to form a historical subcomission. I don't believe that illegitimate presidents, who lack broad-based popular support, can be accountable to their people and be champions of national Causes. If another wave of foreign pressure mounts, don't make a mistake: he'll effortlessly succumb to the new one, because what he's mostly preoccupied with is to sustain his presidency that no majority of Armenian citizens has granted him.
Manooshag, unfortunately I am unable to share my ideas freely with you.
Because the site moderator is not printing my comments.
On 19th of March I have replied to the comments of GAYANE and ARMENIAN.
My comments were never printed.
I am not even sure if this comment will posted...
I would very much apreciate to know why my comments were blocked.
Dear Administrators --
This ‘Avetis’ guy seems to need psychiatric help, sympathy, and care. While I don't contest your right to publish his marasmic comments, but they contain insults to other commentators, such as “midgets,” “stupids,” “idiots,” “enemies,” and the like. The guy is either mentally retarded or fierce opponent of anything related to Diaspora and Genocide recognition, or a Turk, or simply one of those who've been bought and paid-for by illegitimate Armenian regime to widespread counter-agitation to their benefit.
I don’t think that using derogatory words is something you should tolerate in this website.
Respects,
Noune
I find the turn of phrase used by Mr. Sarkissian inspirational and emotional. Maybe we ought to get together and finance a memorial on a suitable site in Der Zor, of course subject to permissions.
Is this a dream too far?
real source of this news is here: http://www.zaytung.com/haberdetay.asp?newsid=5135
zaytung.com is a turkish satire news website...
In your dreams.... Stop coveting another land and try to improve what you already have.
Agree with Zara completely.
Hi Guys, I am neither a turk nor an armenian, so my view would not be emotionally jaundiced. The amount of ill will and bad blood in these columns is unbelievable, Turks are not saints nor are the Armenians. History is full of such incidences not only here but all over. In Spain, India, US...to name a few. The point is where do we stop. One thing to remember is you cannot change your neighbours (unless you personally want to migrate to LA). you would have to deal and interact with them anyway, would it not be better if Armenia lead this morally by returning the lands they have occupied illegally for the past 20 years from Azerbaijan and fulfill 4 UN security council resolutions ? I have never come across any armenian who has openly condemned this. why this double standard?
My friends please scroll up to the top to see what this discussion is about. In case you forgot, it is entitled Turkish-Armenian Protocols: Reality and Irrationality. The author has deduced with a rational argument that the Protocols—though imperfect—are in favor of the Armenians. From most of you here, all I ever hear is pure emotional ranting. As a matter of fact, the majority of people I argue with about the Protocols have NEVER EVEN READ THE AGREEMENT. They make their decision solely on the assumption that any deal with the cunning Turk is bad. Yes, we all would have liked the Turks to sign an agreement that apologized to the Armenian nation, gave back all the lands and threw in 10 billion dollars reparations. But as you know, that is not going to happen. So what does a small nation, with little influence, few prospects, blockaded on both sides do? Does it wait for something to happen elsewhere like action in US Congress that has failed for the upteenth time or does it try to push its interests forward the best way it can. BTW, why is it that Armenians in the diaspora have so little faith in our compatriots that we have to assume that they are not smart enough or committed enough to make such an agreement?
So I come back to my simple question to you all: If this agreement, as most of you say, is so heavily in favor of the Turks. WHY WON’T THEY SIGN. Please make it unemotional, short and rational.
Thank you for putting into words what I experienced in 2002 when I visited Armenia for the first time and by special arrangement was permitted to cross over the border briefly to view the ruins of Ani from a distance. My heart sank at the site of the desolation. My soul ached as I looked into the faces of the young Turkish soldiers who accompanied us and I realized they didn't grasp the significance of this place. Ani is monumental as a testimony to the devastation of the Armenian homeland. Countless other such crumbling monuments of destruction are strewn across eastern Turkey today crying out to us. Thank you for sounding the alarm and calling attention to the need for immediate action to preserve our monuments.
But should we really be surprised by Turkey's neglect and blatant destruction of historical sites which testify to the Armenian presence within its borders? Even today as Turkey seeks entrance into the EU and attempts to distance itself from the barbaric acts of its Ottoman forefathers ("It was a civil war...There were massacres on both sides..."); the knee-jerk response of President Erdogan in the face of the Swedish recognition of the Armenian Genocide is to threaten DEPORTATION of 100,000 Armenians!
If this didn't resonate "deep down into our cells" with the inherited pain of our slaughtered ancestors, the sheer irony of Erdogan's threat would be comical. Turkey has once again "told on herself" and demonstrated a bold-faced disregard for the consequences. I hope the countries of the EU are listening.
Thank you Khatchig for the article. I also think that Zara made a good point. Our ancient Churches and monuments should be renovated and preserved both in Turkey and in Armenia. I hope one day I will also be able to see my father's and my maternal grandparents towns in Western Armenia.
Stephen.. EXCELLENT comment.. Very heart breaking to hear the story of your family but we are all too familiar with the horrible stories and memories of those who survived the Genocide.. Do not worry my friend.. we will get what we seek for.. Turks will pay.. I pray God so that see get back our lands, ALL OF IT..and throw the invaders out....
MIR Ali---- If one read your comment, one would NO DOUBT say you are a Turk or someone who has connection with Azerbajian or Turkey.. If you are neither a Turk or Azeri, then why are you commenting on a subject that you have no idea about.. do you know the history of the lands that ARmenia has??? Please do me a favor, do some research and then come here to preach your nonsense and try to open our eyes... The lands that Armenians occupied from Azeris belonged TO ARMENIANS and we won it back by shedding unnecessary blood ofour loved ones.. we played fair.. war happened over this and Armenia won.. I say let Azeris cry themselves to sleep, I don't give one rat's a#*(#$*(#$*(..
Zara jan.. I agree with you 100%.. Armenian govt should dedicate resources and time to renovate all our historic sites; however our govt is incapable of doing that.. it can't even take care of its state and people.. i am sure restoring historic monuments are the last thing on their mind.. we need individuals, wealthy individuals to dedicate their resources to get this project going.. i can help as much as I can. i wish i had the money.. just wish.. i would not wait for anyone to tell me in order to restore and preserve history and culture, we need to first do anything and everything to keep these monuments alive.. However, as I can see it, the Armenian govt will not do that.. not now and possibly not ever.. unless we over throw the current govt and replace it with sound, intelligent, and strong govt...
Evelyn... EXCELLENT commentary.. Excellent... I also wish that UN hears the threats and NEVER let or even consider letting Turkey to join the body.. I also want UN to hear how Gordon tried to donwplay these threats.. what a low life scared cell that he is..
God Bless you all
G
To Mr. Ali,
I can certainly appreciate the idea of being good neighbors. Especially in the modern, interconnected world that we live in, thinking globally is the future. However, as they say, the devil is in the details. Take for example what you have mentioned about Armenia giving back lands it has occupied for 20 years. Sounds great until one considers that those lands that Armenia occupies were only under the auspices of Azerbaijan since the 1920s, part of a slice and dice deal that the Soviets made at the very real expense of Armenian interests.
If one is to really think globally, or at least regionally in the case of the south Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, specifically to assign lands to this country or that, then okay lets bring up the very nasty issue of 1915. To put it bluntly, all of eastern Anatolia and Karabaugh, known as the Armenia homeland for some 2500 years (one can check the maps and the history to verify this) were stolen in just a few short years from 1915 - 1923 through plain old fashioned murder on a large scale, namely genocide.
The point I'm making here is that if we are to act morally, then fine, but all have to play by the moral code. Lets talk about land assignment, eastern Anatolia (Van, Mush, Kars, Kharpert, Cilicia, Sivas, ... etc.) and Karabaugh ... putting it all on the table. It can essentially beguaranteed that Turks will absoulutely not want to open up such a can of worms, from their point of view.
One final note here, Armenians have been losing life and land to the Turks for over a 1,000 years. Karabaugh was where we drew the line in the sand and said ... NO MORE. As an Armenian I would love to see good neighborly relations between Azerbaijan and Armenia and Turkey, but this has to be based on sound moral and historical principles. For Armenians, the only history we have to go by is that in 1915 we were nearly exterminated, removed from our historic land in large part because we trusted the Turkish government. As the Jews say about their Holocaust, NEVER AGAIN.
Gayane, Before accusing me of being a Turk. I live a million miles from there in India, in UK now for that matter. There was the partition of India and Pakistan which witnessed an exodus of tens of millions in the process millions perished, so dont preach me about genocide and forced migration.
I am a global citizen and know about world events not like an American who cannot pinpoint their own country on the map
To David, I would respectfully have to disagree with some of your observations. By 650 A.D, the Islamic empire under Omer Bin Khattab had already reached Azerbaijan and parts of Daghestan. The lands north of Iran, Islam gradually supplanted Christianity and Azerbaijani pagan cults. In the sixteenth century, Safavid Dynasty ruled over that part ( 1486- onwards). There were always power struggles going around with a lot of land exchange going around. so would respectfully disagree with your 2500 year thesis.
while you claim they were stolen for a period of 8 years?, surely this does not appear correct or logical. Or maybe you could enlighten me further?
Dear Dr. Deranian,
Thank you for writing such eloquent comment.. It was an excellent way to portray what Mister Ali refuses to see or neglects to understand or simply does not know about Armenians and the history behind it.. People like Mister Ali are great example as to why it takes this long to get this matter resolved and squared away.. People like him prolong the process.. Directly or indirectly.
I apologize if my comment to Mr Ali was very curt and possibly rude; however my nerves can't take any more of this type of ignorance and people simply voicing their opinion without being educated on the history, background and current situation..
Thank you again for writing such a beautiful and detailed comment.
Gayane
Murat,
Is that why Turkey is so frightened of the truth that it requires laws banning anyone acknowledging the reality of the Armenian Genocide? How much low self esteem do your people have that open discussion of the Armenian Genocide needs laws banning it under the stupid BS of "insult to Turkishness"? How childish of a nation? Doesn't sound open and honest and nothing to hide to me or anyone. It is you Turks that are afraid of the Truth, that outspend any Armenian ten fold in Armenian genocide denial propaganda. And losing at it I might add.
There are volumes of pages in the US archives as well as those in the French, British, Russian, vatican, Canadian,Australian, Austrian on the Armenian Genocide. Is that all an Armenian myth or forgery? How about the Greek and Assyrian genocides or the current Kurdish one? Are those all myths. Is the occupation of Cyprus a myth?
Sick man of europe indeed!
Dear Gayane,
You can learn about our organization on www.armeniatree.org
Alla Berberyan
Hi Gayane,
All is well. I have no hard feelings against you or Armenians for that matter. In fact there is an Armenian community in India living there for centuries in Kerala where I live, there is an Armenian church beside a mosque,there has never been any religious animosity between us. we live next to each other like brothers sharing each others joys, sorrows, ceremonies and celebrations. When I looked at this my approach was Conciliatory.
David: sorry the date should read 640AD as against 650 AD Omar the 2nd caliph died in 644 AD
Tes...opinionated people who lack knowledge can be time wasters! :(
If anyone wants to see the definitive history of Armenia in excruciating detail, you may want to find Robert Hewsen's book, The Historical Atlas of Armenia. It's excellent. Here is a bit more info on it: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/332284.html
Ayo Gary jan.. 100% chisht es...
Mr Ali,
I understand that you know some history; however when you stated that Armenia illegally occupied the lands from Azerbajian for 20 years put you on the list of people who I consider not worth having conversation with .. not an ongoing one that is.. My comrades and myself already brought and shed some light on that matter.. hopefully you will take this and maybe learn more about your neighbors who you live along side and are like brothers and sisters... I am surprised that living among them you have not captured and understood not only their history but their emotional and mental state due to the events that took place, take place and will take place when it comes to our lands, culture, and lives..Please do not think we hate you or wish you ill...On the contrary, I wish you will. I just hope that one day you truly see what Armenians are fighting for...
Thank you
Gayane
Mersi Karekin jan..
I will definintely check it out.. Seems very interesting...
Gayane
Serzh would not have said these words unless he got the green light from Washington. The Armenian issue is a bargaining chip that may not assist Armenia one iota. There is under-the-radar activity going on by superpowers to prod Turkey regarding non-Armenian hot-button issues for which they'd like Turkey's cooperation.
To Gayane and Mir Ali.
Thank you Gayane for both your comments and your emotional expression.
You see Mir Ali, Gayane is expressing very passionately the terrible loss that Armenians have suffered in the 20th centuray. Again let me say I appreciate your ideals on global community and also the suffering that the India-Pakistan conflict has caused. While certainly not to discount the suffering of your people, the difference of the Turkish-Armenian conflict is that the Armenian race was, and some fear still is, on the way to extinction because of the Genocide.
Gayane demonstrates with great passion that latent fear many Armenians have of dissolving into history. I can remember as a young boy telling people that I was Armenian and them looking at me with a confused look on their face, like what is an Armenian. Why? Many believe it was largely because of the Armenian Genocide. Some have even said that had there been no Armenian Genocide, Armenia today would be a nation of some 30 to 40 million people running from the Black Sea to the Mediteranean Sea, democratic, thriving economically, and with a strong military to help keep a balance of power in the Middle East. Instead tiny land locked Armenia struggles today for it's very existence. And if that was not enough, both Turkey and Azerbaijan, in addition to blockading Armenia, are continuing the Genocide by actively destroying evidence that Armenians once lived in the lands they occupy. A specific example of this is the recent destruction of Armenian tombstones (Khatchars) in Nachitchevan, once part of the Armenian homeland that the Azeris have ethnically cleansed of Armenians. Can you see why we Armenians shutter at the thought of Azerbaijan having control of Karabaugh?
Concerning the Islamic conquest of Armenia, circa 650 AD, while not to disparge Muslim cultures (in fact may Muslim peoples have helped Armenians after the Genocide and Armenia has very good relations with many Islamic countries) the point here is that Armenians were in these lands well before such conquests, and later, after the Caliphate's power had subsided, circa 850 AD, the Armenians again regained much of these lands. Let me be clear; most Armenians make a real distinction between Islam and Turkish conquest. The two are different. For that matter, we Armenians generally do not hate Turks, rather we struggle against the injust Turkish goverment that perpetuates genocide.
To bring this to a personal example, have a look at a short promotional film myself and some associates made at www.komitasthemovie.com about the life and tragedy of the prolific Armenian music composer Komitas. This amazing man lost his mind in large part because of the horrors of the Armenian Genocide.
According to the Constitution of the Republic of Turkey whoever lives in Turkey is Turk. Next time Mr. Erdogan should say that he can deport 100,000 Turks [Armenian].
Dear Arto –
One of the most recent commentators who entered this discussion was my husband and he only responded to what we felt was a false juxtaposition, forced parity that someone (calling himself ‘Resoman’) attempted to impose on the protocols, calling on Peace between the two nations without regard to the fact that Peace can only be achieved through an understanding of events and their causes, not by wishfully granting parity to each side and unfounded calls for reconciliation. That’s the only reason we’ve responded knowing too well what this discussion is about and having read both Davidian’s article and the protocols in both English and Armenian. We believe that the best counter-arguments that denounce Davidian’s analysis can be found in articles by Mathew Der Manuelian (http://www.gab-ibn.com/IMG/pdf/AT1-_Turkish-Armenian_Protocols_Reality_and_Irrationality.pdf) and Henry Theriault (http://armenianweekly.com/2009/10/11/theriault-the-final-stage-of-genocide-consolidation/).
Back to your comment. I think it’s flawed for several reasons.
First, regarding “any deal with the cunning Turk.” In the case of protocols, the deal is not ours per se, it’s been imposed on Armenians by power centers in order to twist Turkey’s arm to open the border. The last thing on Armenian government’s “to-do list” was to induce rapprochement with the Turks by means of defeatist protocols.
Second, “we all would have liked the Turks to sign an agreement that apologized to the Armenian nation, gave back all the lands and threw in reparations. But as you know, that is not going to happen.” Well, I personally cannot predict (but I certainly respect your predicting capacity) that this is not going to happen one way or the other. Just as none of us knew that Israel could re-establish statehood after nearly 2000 years on the lands long inhabited by the others; that Germans could find the courage to apologize to Jews nearly 40 years after the Holocaust and provide reparations until the present day; that the Soviet Union could collapse and Armenia could re-gain independence; that Artsakh (formerly Nagorno-Karabakh) could have become a de-facto independent Armenian state; that after 45 years the nation of Germany could re-unite; that America could enact a Civil Rights Act acknowledging its wrongdoings with regard to Afro-Americans and Indians; that Kosovo could gain independence; that the nation of Georgia would be essentially been split into three separate entities; that throughout human history nation-states or empires collapse and new states take or re-take their place. The list goes on. It’s beyond a fallible human being’s imagination what can happen in history given ever-changing circumstances, as well as foreign policy, economic, and geostrategic preferences of players involved.
Third, “what does a small nation, with little influence, few prospects, blockaded on both sides do?” It is known theory-wise from the political science and practice-wise from the workings of Realpolitik that small nations with little influence and few prospects are more maneuverable in advancing their foreign policy and national security interests than the large states. It is also known from history that small, destitute nations could gain political dividends when they showed resilient spirit, led by truly national, public-spirited leaders with moral legitimacy. Was not Armenia the same “small nation, with little influence, few prospects, blockaded on both sides” when it had won the Artsakh war?
Lastly, to answer the question “If this protocols, as the prevailing majority of Armenians both in Armenia and the Diaspora say, is in favor of the Turks, why won’t they ratify them? (BTW: not sign, but ratify. They already signed them.) I guess you’re directing your question to the Turks who occasionally visit these discussions, so I leave it on them to answer, if they will. All I can do is to present arguments why I, just as most Armenians, think that the protocols are potentially hazardous for Armenia, and why, subsequently, Davidian’s analysis is seriously flawed.
First, protocols have been imposed on Armenia. As such, they limit Armenia’s possibilities to advance its own interests in this game, simply because, I repeat, it’s not Armenia’s game. I tend to believe that Armenian government is just being used as a tool to pressure Turkey to open the border in order to advance the economic, military, and geostrategic interest of the world power centers.
Second, a multitude of economists have already elaborated upon the issue of opening of the Armenian-Turkish border. Virtually all of them agree that with current Armenian trade and commerce laws, as well as given the state of Armenia’s economy, the opening of the border is a disaster for Armenia from economic, national security, ideological, demographic, and ideological perspectives.
Third, protocols allow for multiple, at times contradictory, interpretations of several controversial provisions that I’d like to omit (I believe everyone knows them by now). Because of these insubstantial and flimsy provisions that, according to diplomatic practice of establishing diplomatic relations and opening the borders, shouldn’t have taken place in Memorandums of Understanding like Turkish-Armenian protocols, Turkey may interpret them as it deems appropriate.
Fourth, as evidenced by recent events, Turkey ties the protocols with the Artsakh issue and there’s little chance that it’ll ever de-couple the two issues, a stance that doesn’t play to Armenia’s hands.
As for your question re: “why is it that Armenians in the Diaspora have so little faith in our compatriots that we have to assume that they are not smart enough or committed enough to make such an agreement?” Well, the president who’s engaged in protocol dealings is unelected and thus unrepresentative. His unaccountability to the citizenry has become vivid when the issue of fundamental national importance not only to his own citizens, but perhaps first and foremost to the Diasporan Armenians (read: protocols) was not given a chance for an open discussion, public deliberations, and maybe even a national referendum. As for the Diaspora, it had only been given a chance to have the president in their midst for short 10 days or so when he cynically announced that he didn’t come to ask permission from the Diasporans – people who are direct descendants of those deported and expelled from Turkey, a country which the president is now playing fire with. How, after this, can Armenians in Armenia or the Diaspora have faith in such a president? His government is not accountable to the populace and there’s always a danger that they can proceed with the issue given their commercial interests and not give consideration to the issues of national interests and national dignity.
LOL!!!!!!! What a bunch of wackos. There is a reason why they call Turkey the sick man of Europe. Although, they should be called the sick men of China/Asia.
BLOOD MONEY is the issue that most fits into our overall "Demands".
The land issue is irrelevant,rather no time for it as yet...
But B-Money is there for the taking,what with the Armenian BAR Association with quite a few able International Armenian attorneys, a strong-lettered Law-suit (dossier) should be prepared and lodged at the Int'l Court of Justice at the Hague,cc to U.N. and other important instances. Our Hargeli (dear) proffessionals of the Law should get down to business and in cooperation with our historians, in extension dgging up all our archives whether in Yerevan or ALMA in Watertown, MA(USA) and the one in aris preare it. Especially NOW THAT Mr. Erdogan has so harsly referred to Deporting Armeian migrant workers from Istanbul. One more Realstic viewpoint and please consder ,think and then respond to the fllowing;-
Supposing the wrd G. is pronounced by U.s. pres, cme April 24..WHAT NEXT?
Do you firmly believe that if we in Diaswpora Unanimously do not take up the issue-as above- anything else will occurr?
Or if U.s.,Eu.And Russia do not then REMIND TURKEY THAT THEY SOULD -AS CULPABLE- MAKE AMENDS,restitution/ at the very least now for B-Money,all these craving for Recognition would have been worth it?
Turkey knows full well that RESTITUTION/REPARATIONS-AFTER ADMITTING TO GENOCIDE COMMITTED BY THEIR PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT(s),something will be in store for the.And if we from now -yes now, start that, then it wll be TOO LATE.
I can assure all, they will then gladly come to Tsitsernagabert, kneel dow and beg forgiveness,thus the aobe TRIO will decare ..:-"All right Armenians, isn't ths eough for you? you asked for it and you got it.
SO MY HUMBLE IDEA IS THIS 95TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE GENOCIDE WE MUST COE OUT NOT JUST WITH WORDS OF RECOGNITION,BUT ALONGSDE IT ON TOP OF IT IN BIG LETTER"BLOOD MONEY" MUST BE PAID TO US...SURVIVRS HERS...
FOR M ORE MUC MORE IS THERE IN STOR IN MY ARGUMENT(S).
TURKEY CAN VERY EASILY MANEUVRE ,AS ABOVE AND ADD,THE WORLD ECONOMIC CRUNCH HAS AFFECTED US TREMENDOULSY AND OUR GOVERNMENT TREASURY COFFERS ARE EPTY...
NOTHING LEFT THERE TO PAY TO ARMENIANS..THEY MUST WAIT..
WHAT ANOTHER 95 YEARS
NO I HAVE A SUGGESTION-
ALL KNOW QUITE WELL THAT THE OIL PIPELINE FROM AZERBAIJAN ,THE INFAMOUS BTJ OR BTC BAKU-TIFLIS(TBILIS) CHEYHAN ,COULD HAVE EASILY PASSED THROUGH THE SHRTER R O U T E VIA ARMEIAN TERRITORY...
WHY DID'T THE ANGLO AM OIL CO'S EVADE THAT.WHAT ARMENIANS ARE NOT TRUSTWORTHY? thence.
we must press those to govt.s TO IN EXTENSION IMPOSE UPON THOSE OIL COMPNAIES TO SET ASIDE A CERTAIN % of the 1.600,000.000 BILLION THAT THEY PAY ANNUALLY_(EASY MONEY) TO R.OF TURKEY TO BE PAID TO ARMENIAN HES OF SRVIVORS-AS BLOOD MONEY_"CAUSE THOSE COMPANIES AND IN EXTENSION THEIR GOVT.''S ARE ALSO "ANUGHTTY" PEOPLE not to have repected THEIR OLD TIME WWI ALLY THAT GOUGHT ALONGSIDE THEM..
WEREAS THER TURKS KILLED plenty of ther -Brits soldiers on the GALIPOLI shores...rmember?
they were-the turks on the Germanss sde..
Why do the Armenians s easily forget all that..
Just REcognition eh????
g.p
Armine,
What surprises me is the number of times this same set of arguments against the protocols has been stated, repeatedly, only to be sidestepped or ignored by parties above. Just read what I have written in the beginning. To start with, the maing gaping hole in Davidian's "analysys" is the missing component of the utter hostility toward any Armenian existence by the neighboring Turkish states. Now, to downgrade this real and main concern as label it as "mere paranoia and scaremongering" makes one wonder about the 1) qualifications and 2) type of interests to which such "servants of platitiude" belong. Of course this is a unilateral set of agreements, merely an extension and acceleration of what has been going on for a century at least.
I have het to get a response to the above questions I have asked, but in particular the quesiton about why the Armenian government and government controlled media, both in the republic and diaspora, are engaged in misinformation campaigns, in historic whitewashing campaigns, why Ashot Bleyan and his ilk are still insisting that "we have no historical grievances with Turks," yet again pushing the Leninist leftist and quite anti-nationalist propaganda? If the protocols or any other "raprochement" proposals are so damn beneficial, then why do they need to accomplish this by way of deceiving the Armenian public on history?
I've already answered that question. By delaying and dragging, they are waiting for 2 bonuses: 1) division among Armenians, and 2) further complicity and brainwashing of their own public on behalf of Armenians. They have no interest in rapprochment. They only have an interest in accelerating their ascent to regional hegemony. They are also testing waters, and this has been the case in the past.
What do you mean by 1000 years? The last Armenian statehood (Kingdom of Cilicia) ceased to exist in the 14th century, which makes it 700+ years, not 1000. But even after that Armenians existed under the Ottoman yoke in their historical provinces up until 1915. Have you ever asked Jews if they considered it psychotic to revive statehood after nearly 2000 years on the lands long inhabited by the others? Have you ever imagined that Germans could apologize to Jews nearly 40 years after the Holocaust and provide reparations until the present day? Could you ever envision in your dream that the Soviet Union could collapse and Armenia could re-gain independence after 700+ years? Would you ever think that Nagorno-Karabakh could have become a de-facto independent Armenian state? Could you ever forsee that after 45 years the nation of Germany could re-unite? Would you ever think that America could enact a Civil Rights Act acknowledging its wrongdoings with regard to Afro-Americans and Indians? Did you ever predict that Kosovo could gain independence and that the nation of Georgia would be essentially been split into three separate entities? Nothing is psychotic with any nation because there's no present and future without the past. We look into the past because in the present we didn't get an apology for the past henious crimes that have been infilcted on us by the Turks. Is it too much to long for?
Dear David:
I have truly appreciated with your creation with the wonderful video of our beloved genius musician Gomidas Vartabed. Like you said, he re-created all the outdated folklore songs that have lost somewhat of a touch through the years from their original Armenian motifs and he gathered them by visiting numerous Armenian towns through Western Armenia by reconstructing them and made them more modernized as well as to its original Armenian form. He did all this while he was Vartabed "Rev. Father" in Etchmiadsin Mother Church in Eastern Armenia. I read from the autobiography of one of his famous student's, the late Prime Minister of the First Republic of Armenia Simeon Vratsian who was a student at Kevorkian Gemaran; and Gomidas was a music teacher there and Vratsian's teacher as well. Simeon Vratsian said that he was the real-typical Armenian man. I believe that Gomidas Vartabed after the Armenian Genocide went insane not only for what he went through; but seeing how the genius Armenian intellectuals such as Taniel Varoujan and Siamanto and more than 300 of them being tortured and killed right in-front of his eyes. When he saw the torturous killings of his entire beloved nation, he then lost his mind. Through the years he worked so very hard going from place to place re-creating all those songs for his loving nation and people; afterwards, he most probably lost all hope and faith to re-create again. He figured that his nation - most of his loving people - are dead, who am I going to create more music for? Gomidas is every Armenian's hero.
To: Resoman -- Yeah, right. Ottoman and Young Turks were good at interbreeding their nomadic savage genes with the noble genes of other peoples: Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Georgians, etc. Of course, you'll like it: so many ancient, civilized gnes and blood has been interbred into your barbaric Seljuk blood! And remember, in the last century millions of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and other Christians fell innocent victim of genocide in its typically Turkish, i.e. barbaric form of extermination. For the next generation to erase the remins of the genocidal treatment of the Christians by the Turks, your government will have to first acknowledge and apologize to the victims and their descendants. Remember!
Dr. Deranian,
Thank you very much for your posts and the clip.
You understood quickly that I express my passion by writing..the passion full of love, and sometimes frustration.... The reason I say anger is not because I am frustrated with anyone particular, but I am frustrated that for 95 years we could not work together as ONE BODY, ONE SOUL, ONE MIND to tackle The Genocide matter among many other matters that to this day affect our lives as Armenians living both in Armenia and in Diaspora.. My passion is very strong... I know you can see it through how I write.. however, that is how I express how I feel. .. I am nobody, with no financial basis, no academic basis, no political basis..however, I am just a little piece of what we call our mother land Armenia, I represent one cell of an organizm called Armenian culture...and I love my country and people with every fiber in my body... hence why most of the time my words and comments come out strong and with passion.. You are very accurate with your accessment Dr..
I want to thank you for sharing the video clip. I have to say, when I read an article about Komitas in "Yerevan" magazine a while back, the tears would not stop rolling down on my cheeks... My heart bled for this hanjaregh individual who past away without any noble funeral and recognition.. After watching your clip, I re-lived the pain that he must have gone through and the tears chocked me yet again... How can we not bow to this man who has done so much for our culture.. As Nairian said, Komitas is our hero.. and will be for years to come.. He is my connection to my forefathers lands.. he is our connection to our lost lives. His death was a true tragedy and I hope that every Armenian who is alive will keep his memory alive by listening to his maqur Armenian music and disregard the modern rabiz music... I hope that every Armenian who is born grows up surrounded with the delicate and beautiful sounds of his qamancha... Komitas is a true legend...
Dr. Deranian I will be sharing this link with everyone on my list.. Armenian or non-Armenian... I am very big proponent of educating our non-Armenian friends about our culture and nation..and I intend to do so as long as I have a breath in me...
Thank you again for your posts and your kind words...
Gayane
Armenians as tourists in their homeland. How reprehensible!
To Nairian,
So glad you like the film. I was really moved by you passion for Komitas and what he means to the Armenian people. Honestly, before working on the film, I knew just a bit about Komitas, mostly that he wrote church music. But as you describe, there was so much more to the man. In many ways I consider him a metaphor for the Armenian people. That is, a light shining brightly cut short in 1915. Thank God though, that light has been lit again and every time Komitas's music is played or sung, that light gets a liitle bit brighter. So to the Armenian people. I thank God that we are still shining, perhaps not as bright as we would like, but shining nevertheless.
Please tell you friends and family about the website as we are trying to spread the word about Komitas. The next project in line with what we have done so far is to make a feature film, called Red Harvest, about Komitas and the other Armenian intellectuals and community leaders arrested on April 24, 1915 to be taken on the death march that would eventually lead to Komitas losing his mind.
Krikor:
Be my guest and come and see Turkish civilization in Turkey. Building only churches in NOT civilization.
It simply blows people's mind that Turks have no civilization who has created one of the biggest empire in the history.
Knowing and acknowleding what turks have done is a scary part and can not be admitted by any Armenian.
David, A breif snapshot of history: After the Islamic Chaliphate in 650's AD, there was the Ommayyad Dynasty which ended in 750 AD. Then there was the Abbasid Dynasty which was from 750 AD till 1258 AD. This is the date which everyone remembers because the islamic civilization was totally decimated with libraries burnt to the ground and huge civilian population in the areas decimated at the hands of the mongols by Halagu Khan ( the mongol hordes read it as Turks) the sacking of Baghdad is the most poigant event where it is said there were rivers of blood and ink from the libraries, the popualation of Iran was reduced from 2 million to less than a hundred thousand (they never recovered after that they reached this population level only in the 20th century !!!) areas around Afghanistan etc were also totally decimated.Halaugu / Halagath in the local languages around means death and devastation.
There is a popular legend that during the seige of Herat, he lost his favourite commander in the battle, he was extremley enraged and ordered the entire population including animals to be decimated, after 6 months he returned to find a mouse running among the rubble, he was so enraged that his orders were not executed adequately, he ordered a thousand of his soldiers who were incharge killed !!! ( History repeating itself, Turks before !!?) It was only after 150 years these mongols converted to Islam and adopted the persian culture in their courts which they had destroyed. we then had their renaissance in the form of the Ottoman empire which lasted till the 20th century.. well thats the history in a nutshell.
Gayane: You will be surprised the Armenians living in India apparently came during the 2nd century AD along with the syrian christians (who came earlier) who claim to be disciples of the 12 apostles of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Due to the trade and commercial links, the christian community here is one the the oldest christian communities outside the middle east they surely did not come in 1915 AD.
Bravo! Courage and patience... that's all I can say, and oh yeah! Though it is scary, don't be afraid to fight for your rights.
"Be courageous, go ahead and tell the Jews that what Germans have done to them must be forgotten because no Nazi is living today.” See what their reaction will be, or the Cambodians, or the Ukrainians, or the Greeks, or the Assyrians and the Kurds, or the Darfurians."
1. If Azeris attack they are going to try to retake Agdam and Fizuli. Given both are major cities bordering the front..that is about as self-evident comment as one can get.
2. NCO is defined. Why the quality of the NCO is "problemtic" area for the Azeris is never explained.
Dear Betty,
Anastas Mikoian was one of the four who signed the death order(sentence if you wish) of the Polish officers at Katyn.
The other three:Stalin,Beria and Molotov.
Is there anything of significance that he did for Armenia?
He just managed to save his skin.
Waiting foir a mass murderer in freezing cold doesn't make you a patriot although I admire your courage and dedication to the armenian cause. An old "unguer"
I can't change my views,just because someone's name finishes in IAN doesn't make him a good human being.Forget the whole yging.Thank you.
Please go ahaead, and expand the list, the moderator doesn't allow me to write more of it. Some of my articles have been censored and banned.
To Ahmet:
Why dont the turks around the world go back to their natural habitat which is present day Mongolia?
Dear David,
I do indeed appreciate all your work for our beloved Gomidas Vartabed. I will tell and e-mail to friends and family about your website and if I can be of any help to you, I'll be more than happy to do so. You can get my e-mail from the editors. No Armenian can come short of truly appreciating for what he has done for the Armenian culture, our songs and our music (both for Church and folklore songs). If you read -though in Armenian- Simeon Vratsyan's memoirs about Gomidas; you not only love his genius but also his humanity and humility. His zest for life and his youthfulness. He used to take his students for outings and play ball with them. And every so often he would leave to go to the various little towns "kughere" to gather songs from the local people, then he would come back and work on them to ameliorate. Vratsyan said that his laughter was so moving that it would almost shake the world beneath you, yet he was prudent and expected from his students diligence and super morality. He was forgiving but with a limit; they had to be good human beings, and he expected the same morality from his peers and the rest of the clergy; but some came short of it unfortunately. In short, he was one of the most wonderful Armenian man that you could come across to, even in his times. Too bad, he didn't deserve to die the way he did; but his legacy and his songs will remain with us forever!
Ms. Mariam Sukhudyan is a great Personality with a capital letter.
Thank You Ms. Mariam Sukhudyan! All citizens of the World that have kind will are pleased with what You are doing.
OF MICE....(MOUSE) BY MIR ALI AD THEN SOME...
MIR ALI IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT YOU ARE NOT A TURK..WITH AMPLE KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY(NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT)..
YET YOU -OR SOME ONE ELSE UP ABOVE MENTIONED THE PARTITION OF INDIA(VIZ.AFTER GANDHI ASKED THE BRITS TO LEAVE..)what does this prove.
there are peopl/nations that can live peacefully side by side-but each owning its lands,culture,language and what not.BUT AGAIN EVEN THE INDIANS OF INDAI COULD NOT LIVE TOGETHER WITH THE PAKISTANIS...WHY?
WHILE ARMENIANS HAVE LIVED THROUGH ALL THAT YOU,OTHERS DESCRIBE...more or less peacefully WITH PEOPLE LIKE THE PERSIANS(IRNIS),ARABS(EVEN THOUGH BOTH INVADED ARMENIA,BUT THEN PULLED OUT AND KEEP GOOD RELATIONS.HOW COME ? I ASK YOU TURKS ARE NOT COMING TO REALIZE THAT ABOVE RELATIONS CAN ACTUALLY ALSO BE EMPLOYED BY THEM
I THINK IT IS A MATTER OF TIME WHEN THEY WILL _THEIR GOVERNMENTS I.E., NOT THE PEOPLE-COME TO TERMS ,especially if the Anglo-As let go of them.Mark, not the other natios..like Russians(they know whom they deal with )or the French etc. but those two Anglo9unfortunately we communicate here in their language,by the by ,it has become the universal meas of communication..for you see they still have that British Empire feelings(passed on to great Turkey0.These two nations have to first of all understand -again i beg pardon their higher ehcelon ,diplomacy and governmets...that things change. Dr. Mossadeque of Iran(like Gandhi) asked the Brits out.... and is now a real sverign country like India...you see, untill sch time as the Anglo-Ams do ot change a wee bit at least towards this (their created ) country great turkey...there will not be real peace in that area.There may yet be more conflicts there...fact is they are arming theselves all the while...
While we her talk of peace of renovation of monuments this that. Mr. Erdogan and his like are delivering discourses ,that are tantamount to war rhetoric-Aliev Baba and son come to mind...their little broters.Why.?
aother up above-a turk, says Armenians have occupied Azeri lands(Azerbaijan as such did not even exist before 1900's land there was Dagestani,Persian lenkorani,Armenian(from Gandzak(Gandja..0 furter dwn south ...Armenina
HAVE LIBERATED ONLY PART OF THEIR LEGITIMATE LANDS IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD...while agresor Azeri omons occupied Shahumian district totally Armenian populated and drove them out
Again Mir Ali, indeed there have been may wars in the past ,but Armenia has SOMEHOW EMERGED FROM ASES AND REGAINED ITS PLACE IN THE WORLD AS A SOVERIGN NATION/STATE.BELIEVE YOU ME WE SHALL ENDURE ALL DIFFICULTIES, MASACRES GENOCIDES AND LIKE SAROYAN WROTE EVEN TW OF US GETTING TOGETHER WILL CREATE YET ANOTHER ARMENIA.
S TELL THOSE TURKS TO ONLY COMPREHEND THAT..ESPECIALLY NOW THAT THERE IS TALK OF RAPPROCHEMET...THE PROTOCOLS ETC.,
I SUPPOSE THIS WILL BE SUFFICIENT TO REMIND ALL THAT EVEN THOUGH KARS ANI ET AL ARE STILL TURKISH LANDS,ONCE THE KURDISH ISSUE RIPENS UP -SOME 20 MILLION OR SO-(DIFFICULT TO DEPORT THEM? TO WHERE MESOPOTAMIA/
THEN OUR TURN WILL COME...
G.P
Dear David (and Gayane) -- my grandmother was from Hussenig! We might be related :-) I am immediately going to view the film clip, thank you. Also, second the highly recommended work of Professor Robert Hewsen.
United States director of intelligence, Dennis Blair is not a military man.. he is politically motivated person and likes to see wars in Caucasus ... If Aliev stop buying military hardware, then a war with Armenia is imminent.. where there is oil, there will be blood..
Dear Betty, Your story was fascinating. Your mention of Anastas reminds me of a story my uncle, Edward N. Sookikian of Watertown, Mass., told me of his visit to Armenian back in the 1955 time frame.
On his return home flight from Erevan to Moscow (and later Bulgaria to visit cousins), he tells me his seat mate was Anastas himself. (I believe at this time he was The Health Commissar.) They strike up a conversation and feeling comfortable with him he procedes to complain about the negative aspects of his trip viz., "The public toilets are filthy smelly he says and the screens are full of holes. You have to do something about this."
Anastas replies, "I know, I know but we have much more important work to do than to fix up smelly toilets".
"Uncle, How did you dare talk to him this way, he could have you shot!" I said. "I never thought about it, I just had to say my mind".
Well, in Moscow, like a good visitor he gets on the long line in Red Square to see Lenin's tomb. It is cold and windy and he swears to himself why he has to suffer to see Lenin lying there. But evidently it was the proper respect a visitor to Moscow showed in those days.
His next stop was Bulgaria and he comes down with a terrible respitory ailment while visiting relatives. Here too the sanitary conditions are deplorable he told me. And I'm thinking Anastas has put the word out to kill him but make his death seem natural. But the elderly grandmother of the household nurses him back to health. On returning home he promptly sends money for the family to install a modern toilet. Happy travels, V.S.
Dear Shantagizoum, I appreciate all you wrote above by telling only the truth to Ali.
Dear Gayane, I also appreciate all your posts above speaking of the truth that prevails to Mir Ali.
"He was very disappointed by the Swedish Parliament's bes ***. I also expressed my regret. " This is what the Swedish PM actually said. I agree it's still gutless but no one would translate "regret" into "apology" except if they were trained in Turkish "Officialese" - i.e. lying, distorting, denying, inventing, fabricating, manufacturing... fables as history relevant to Turkey in general and the Armenian Genocide in particular. Turkey has an entire official system for this fabricated tale for history, dominated by the Turkish Historical Society and all its state "universities and institutes" which are propped up and supported by millions of dollars of state funds and protected by punitive laws such as 301 and other ridiculous "insulting Turkishness" laws - i.e. anyone who dares to think or say otherwise (e.g. Hrant Dink or Orhan Pamuk, amongst an increasing number of HONEST, COURAGEOUS AND INDEPENDENT historians, journalists and intellectuals) either gets a bullet in the head (Hrant Dink) or has to go into exile (Orhan Pamuk who is the only Noble Prize winner from Turkey) and thousands of others who get put behind bars or penalised or bankrupted or firebombed (such as many independent publishers and newspapers - e.g Ragip Zarakolou). The country lives a lie and th emajority of its citizens are brought up on diet of fables to deny their own real history and the Armenian Genocide in particular AND TO HATE ARMENIA AND ARMENIANS. As to the deep reasons for this just read Taner Akcam's "A Shameful Act". So don't expect to be able to "teach" any different to these guys who regurgitate what they have been brainwashed all their lives and nothing else but lies. As to those Turks who do this from the US and Europe they are a much deeper problem and are PART OF THE DEEP STATE and its Turkish racist-nationalism and terrorism, A DANGEROUS FIFTH COLUMN in democratic countries that will be used at the right time to advance Turkish Deep State dreams of dominating Europe - something which the Swedish and British Prime ministers are too cowardly to appreciate yet!
As to "starving Armenians in Yerevan" our friend Armenian has already said all there is to be said. However in reply to the another distorted reference about "why L.A Armenians won't go back home" apart from the reply that it's none of the business of the person asking one has to add the following: "home" is Western Armenia as well as the current Republic of Armenia and that day, when Armenians will go "home" is getting closer and closer!
Thank you Mariam. You and the people like you will chance Armenia. Keep up the good job. We are with you.
Thanks to individuals like Mariam, change can and will happen. It's about time
Resoman -- I don't think that moderators on this site would sensor or ban your articles unless they contradict the editorial policies or contain derogatory words and expressions. I think tthe real reason is that you may lack compelling counter-arguments to my comments. But in case you do have them (and I hope they are reasonable not wishful), I could leave my personal e-mail. Let me know. I'm ready.
Good advices for Azeris. Armenian strategy must be not defensive. Don't allow to bomb Stepanakert!
To Justiceman;
Three of the articles I have posted earlire have been banned. Probably, those were the ones that the Moderator thought they would be disliked by the Armenian people. Like them or not, they are my views. I have the right to psot them to a forum which I thought open to different views. If not, I have nothing to say, then circulate the similar views around, and be happy with them, and congratulate each other, or do whatsoever you would like to do.
I won't be surprised, I had similar treatment from the Turkish State Security Court, because they didn't like my views that I wrote about the Armenians and some other political issues, and they filed 7 separate lawsuits against me in the years from 1991 to 2002. In other words, you share many things with your Turkish counterparts.
There are some articles that I have written that the Turks hated me so much, some other articles that the Armenians hated me. That means to me I am on the right way.
"I think the real reason is that you may lack compelling counter-arguments to my comments."
I haven't written any arguments against your comments, because after having been censored three times, I don't want to spend so many minutes on the keyboard to come to a point that what I write something and I am the only one to read it. Well, I am not here to tell or teach the staff of Armenianweekly how the moderation should be or
What is reasonable? Who will decide on what is reasonable or what is not? Judging from your comment, apparently, it is not me.
I am not the kind of person to use derogatory or rude words for anybody. Particularly here, as I don't feel any antipathy against the Armenians. Also, I have many Armenian friends in Armenia and in the USA. I have traveled to Armenia more than 20 times as part of my business.
In my posts banned earlier, I mentioned some incidents that took place very recently, in 1990s as well as some others earlier. You must understand what I mean. I don't see them in your list. If you still don't understand, please go ahead, and write down your email address, I will send it to you. my email is (resoman at hotmail com).
By the way, I share nothing with nationalists, and religious people. Those values are much against my world views.
Congratulations and thanks for all what you do in name of humanity. It is time to get rid of some disgusting creatures.
Hye Garlicky Basterma EXACTLY, IT'S TRUE
IT IS NOT DENIS BLAIR OR ANOYONE ,BUT GREAT TURKEY THAT IS ENCOURAGING ALIEV ,IN EXTENSION HIS CLAN ,HIS GOV.T TO KEEP ON GRINDIG THE SAME OXYDATED AXE.THAT OF ATTACKING NK.THIS CAN ONLY BE ATTRIBUTED TO R.OF TURKEY IN ORDER TO DIVERT ATTN:from the main/basic issue...that of recognition and reparations issue wth armejnians ..world AT LARGE. NEXT ON THE ARMENIANS' AGENDA IS ,LET ALL KNOW CLAIM FOR "blood money" LIKE THE GERMANS PAID TO JEWS...INSRANCE COMPANIES TO HEIRS OF SURVIVORS OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.
WHY DO YOU THINK TURKISH FOREIGN MINSTRE'S FIRST REMARK AFTER SIGNING OF PROTOCOLS WAS "our border opening ad commencemet of diplomatic reations is contingent of ARTSAKH (NK) karabagh BEING PLACED UNDER AZERI JURISDICTION.IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT, THEY WISH TO DIVERT ALL ATTN; TO LATTER.SINCE APRIL 24 -95TH ANNIVERSARY IS COMING UP THEY ARE AFRAID THE U.S. AND U.K. MAY SUDDENLY CHANGE THEIR AGE OLD SUPPORT TO THEM AND SERVE TO ANOTHER SIDE...
THEY ARE VERY ANXIOUS FOR TIS LATTER MOVE..
FOR UNTILL WHEN DO THEY WISH TO DEPEND ON SUPPORT OF THE ANGLO-AM ALLIANCE IN SUPPORTING THE TURKISH REPUBLIC THAT NOT LLONG AGO WAS THEIR ADVERSAY...
REALIST...
Armenia has a 98% purity rate (one of the highest in the world), which was acheived via ethnic cleansing! There are thousands of Armenians living all throughout Turkey (many of whom illegally). They are tolerated by the Turkish populace (can the same be said for any Muslim in Armenia?). There are at least six Armenian orthodox churches in Istanbul alone! No one forced these Armenians to come to Turkey. They came as part of the ongoing exodus from Armenia (one of the most corrupt, economically depressed, religiously oppressed nations on the planet), estimates are that 6,000 Armenian citizens each month seek visas or just simply escape, with many settling in Turkey (legal and illegal). Turkey is under no obligation to feed, give medical care, educate, etc. all of those illegal Armenians (who'd love to live off the Turkish taxpayer...just like they do now in the US, as lazy, arrogant and criminal (gansta and otherwise) welfare cases [Glendale & Fresno, CA, as well as in MI and MA])! There is only one single Mosque in Yerevan, and that is constantly monitored by Armenian secret police (who love to take pictures of everyone that goes in and come out). How many Turks actually live and work in Armenia proper (X > 5 but < 10)? Of those who do live there, how many are terrorized daily? How much racism is heaped upon them? So go ahead and keep insulting us and pushing us to our limits...you may all soon discover that your actions in other nation's parliaments and congresses will be the last straw, prompting Turks everywhere to join with our Azeri brothers and sisters, as we rise up in a joint effort to rebuke all of your negative effects, and then focus on Turkey proper, capturing and deporting all illegal Armenians there! Remember that all of your negative actions us today and yesterday will have a negative result tomorrow, when percieved by the world's audience.
Janine Jan..
I would not be surprised if we had some sort of connection ... Only God knows how many people lost connection because of Genocide...:)
We should definintely connect outside of this site..
Nairian jan... Thank you... I all about truth and justice... and I agree with you that Dr Deranian has done and will do a great service to our people if he makes the movie about Komitas... I have shared his site with everyone on my list and I am planning to donate with little that i can...
Mr. Ali... I am sorry but you completely lost me with your last comment.. Not sure what you were talking about and refering to.. Was not sure if you were agreeing with us or trying to disproof us.. Sorry.. I was a bit lost..
God Bless...
Gayane
AB,
Once you realize why you were censored, it would be the day your eyes will open and a clear picture will come forth about what we, ARMENIANS are about and what THE GENOCIDE means to us... Until then, I am sorry to say but what you HAVE TO say to us probably better off not being printed... In addition, I already replied to you as to why I think your comments were not printed...
Bagraduni- BRAVO.. excellent post.. Shat shat havanetsi.. You said what many think in a nutshell.. Apres...
Gayane
it is really funny though to read some patriotic armenian comments. I understand the feeling of being poor and minority for centuries.
1)Why Turks dont look like middle asians? /not because that Turkey Turks have been generated by greeks or armenians. It is because we come from Altay-Oguz family. Look at the portraits of founder of Ottman empire 1. Osman, Sultan Mehmet or Ataturk.
2)The time period we are talking about is early middle ages. You cant compare todays world and that time. The whole europe were in war against each other. If you had the power, you would have invaded and controlled Turks but you were not strong enough to defend your own land.
3)I accept the murder against armenians. It is so clear that thousands were killed during great war in anatolia. I feel sorry for the innocent victims. But if you ask yourselves why, the reason is clear. Ottoman citizens with armenian background betrayed their country with the goal of Great Armenia which was promised by russia and western countries. You cant deny this. Armenians killed many Turks while they were defending their homeland, so what Turks had to do? Just watch and wait to die with an armenian knife or bullet? If there was an ethnical cleaning process, kurds wouldnt exist today in Turkey. Only the betrayers were punished. but again i feel sorry for the children, women and innocent people who lost their life in the migration process.
Turkey has jewish citizens, it is true. Some Turks lived by Hazar Lake converted to Judaism. We have christians also, yezidis, alevis and muslims. So does this make Turkey and its people a fake country? Than you should delete USA from map because its the mixture of world, also UK, France and Germany. Only countriess like armenia should exist and control the world that doesnt know multinationalistm, multi-culturalism.
Maybe im greek, maybe i am kurd, maybe arab, maybe georgian, what does it matter? Turk means founder of Turkey so it doesnt matter what your grandfather was in 1525 as long as you love your country. We have also Turkish citizens with armenian background and they totally disagree with you. Not because there is a pressure on them or they cant speak. It is because they know that armenian diaspora is living on dreamland.
And also todays armenia is the poorest christian country except africa in the world. Is it Turks fault or is it because you still dont know what economic growth is?
Turkey is spending almost half of its national income to military to fight against PKK and compete with greek army. Turkey funds northern cyprus, Turkey doesnt have natural gas or oil resources or any other important reserves. It is only a productive nation. Although being out of EU, Turkey is the 18th biggest economy of the world.
You have a strong enemy, just you know..
To Gayane, Janine, and Nairian,
Much thanks for checking out the promo film about Komitas at the website. Your heartfelt expression about this amazing Armenian musical prodigy so affirms my belief that the movie to tell the story of the Armenian Genocide can be done so effectively by telling the story of Komitas.
Just to let you all know, a script for a full length feature film called Red Harvest, about Komitas and the Armenian Genocide has been written and is currently being passed around in Hollywood. Details of how this film project is progressing will be available on the website.
Again, I'm so encouraged by all of your comments and thank you in advance for passing on info about the film to your friends and family and for your offer to help with the project. I can always be reached through facebook (username David Deranian) and would really appreciate staying in touch with you all.
P.S. Gayane and Janine, always great to meet fellow Kharpertsi. When I visited Hussineg back in 2002 it was still in decent shape with many of the original Armenian buildings still intact, much more that most parts of historical Western Armenia I was told. My mother and I were even able to see the house/neighborhood where my grandfather lived when he was a boy. It was an amazing experience.
To Mir Ali,
Very interesting history about the Islamic empires and cultures that you describe. I am somewhat familiar with the history but not nearly to this level. When I get the time I would love to learn more about this fascinating period of history which I believe has such huge implications for the world of today. Such great film(s) could come from this.
Very interesting =D I read the article from the original source which is Zaytung.com . It is the most famous news portal parody in Turkey and claiming the source is unknown is nothing but a joke. =D It is also important to underline the fact that the author is not disgruntled at all but because of this news, there was a heading in a famous news paper, saying "Armenians took the joke serious!".
I especially loved the part: the photo was authentic :D I dont blame anyone for not recognizing the Sierra Leone flag though. But just a tip, it is not THAT blue :D
Now just an endnote: I didnt kill anyone, and I dont like being accused for it. Neither would you. Trust me. =3 But digging the Turkish news even the news parodies for smearing and for blaming a nation and its people, this is just vicious...
you losers the website is just like onion, they make funny news and this is one of them:)
Mariam, abrees... you have spoken up for our children, our future citizens of Armenia.
May God bless you in all your endeavors. Manooshag
lol. busted!!
It's disappointing to see people incapable of processing what they read will jump on every opportunity to attack a whole country. The source of the story, as blah blah already said, is Zaytung, a satire Web site that published stories of this kind every single day. The main source quoted in the story, Ersin Ozbukey, is quoted in every single story published on the Web site.
Unfortunately, this post will cause a flood of aimless comments filled with racist remarks like the previous two. Keep writing and speaking, cause your hate-speech will surely take you where you want to be, someday.
Turkish media serviced this article in a sarcastic way this morning.we are just laughing to that.the source as mentioned zaytung.com.this web site publishing news in an ironic way and that news is inspired by ambassador's withdrawals of Turkey.sassounian's article is based on a joke
Hello there,
Having gone through all the ideas written down as views here on the news published, I couldn’t help myself of tearing as well.
First of all, it is the fact that Armenians (the remaining of the Assyrians) were living in the region for quite a long time before the Ottomans invaded. In fact, the Armenians were on highly remarkable position in economy and social way of living than the Turks (with mostly the Kurdish ethnicity) in the area today.
The Armenians were and still are good on business, making any kinds of things as manufacturers, buildings and a lot more issues than the Ottomans and the Turks. Because Turks were some are still not civilized as the Armenians. This is the truth.
Nevertheless, we as the Armenians and the Ottomans / Turks had lived and still are living with no problems. History and the living creatures are clearly witnessed to that. Surely, the Turkish journalist with Armenian ethnicity was assassinated in Istanbul. As a human being, I do not want to or hear such a barbaric approach to anything in the future.
In the past, it is today apparent that with the others’ (you may now easily notice who they are) guidance, some mistakes had been carried out from both sides.
To be frank, the Armenians were very much supporters of the Ottomans for quite a long time until they notice and it become clear in visage that the Ottomans were not in the position to defend themselves. Even though, the Armenians enrolled in the Ottoman Army to defend their land.
The Armenians as traders and backbones of the Ottoman economy were weakened due to the fact that they were taken to the army as obligatory military service; the Armenian women took the economic responsibilities instead of their men.
The situation in the lands of Ottomans was not describable in these lines so simple and short.
Nonetheless, some of the Armenians were to choose a way for their future as Greeks, Bulgarians and many others. And some undesirable occurrences took place. We shouldn’t judge with today’s situation considering the fact of those days in the past.
From both sides some did do or did have to do something and we are now facing with this situation. We are to bear this as well, the places, where Armenians were forces to move as a temporarily, were also Ottomans’ their own lands (presently Syria and Lebanon, those who are in Armenia demanded to be and those who are presently in Europe some escaped and some choose to be).
Whatever the cases in the past were, we all should respect the history and being the same and unique history family members, I do like to keep friendship and good relations with Armenians from whom I do personally learned a lot and who I do respect as my sisters and brothers.
Please go ask all the historians and social scientists the affects of the geography. We are at least neighbors. We may sometimes not agree on an event but we are to live in the same area.
Consequently, I do not want be accused what my or your grandfathers do, but I do want to be friendly as France-Germany or France-England manage to do.
Respectfully yours.
Isaac
LOL. Why so serious? :)
Origin of that news is from Zaytung. All the articles written there is only for fun (and apparently waiting for someone to take them serious lol).
I as a turk can tell you one thıng neighbours with this atitue you can get nowhere some of you stıll thınk those lands wıll be gıven to you ıts true that ther wre greeks and armenıans before we came to anatolıa but does that change the truth that its our homeland now turkeys borders are regocnızed ınternatıonally dont you know that? throughout the hıstory many places wre took and lost by various natıons but at the end ıt can only be a one natıons place that ıs the case ın eastern anatılıa so is in istanbul aka constantınapole you can freely come and vısıt your old lands but belıvıng turks wıll hand over them ıs just madness both natıons problem ıs that the fed theır youths wıth natıonlıats propaganda I met an armenıan friend in usa after fınd out ı was turkıhs he strangely looked at me and said you are a good turk he dıdınt even know anythıng about us just what he heard from hıs grand pa's and his schools before ı end my post ı want to say one last thıng what happened ın the past was very bad alot of turks and armenıans murdered ı am just tellıng ıf you show some good wıll ı assure you wıll get more ıts your choice off course
One simple question: Why dont armenian diaspora and armenian government deny to open all archives and to establish common history commission??
Please answer just this question...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe
http://www.chinahighlights.com/image/map/locationmap.jpg
It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant some people can be. Well, I have heard that it's a bliss, so keep up the good work I guess! "LOL" indeed..
Hye Hillary, quoting you:
'I have said many times we cannot change the past we inherit. All we can do is try to have a better future'...
A better future for our world will be the elimination of the Genocides of innocents! The Turkish admission of their guilt for the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation, the slaughters, rapes, kidnapping, women/children forced into churches to be set afire, and bandidos where the victims feet were beaten bloody and burst - until death... and more - shall bring the cycle of Genocides to closure...
'All we can do is try to have a better future' you've said. Until the guilty murderers of the innocents is ended the future holds 'future' Genocides... as in Darfur, even now, 2010! Sadly, the Sudanese are attempting to deny their guilt for the Darfur Genocide - and why not? They are in the same 'denials' which subsequent Turkish governments have pursued, bullying, using endless 'ploys' to deter, distract and whatever to avoid facing the truths which the world recognizes. Additionally, 43 of the 50 states of the USA all agree that the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian peoples is an historic truth. For only when the cycle of Genocides has ended - only then, shall despots recognize they are not to be 'allowed' to commit murders and more...
as you, Hillary, have said, 'to have a better future'...
- shall be when the cycle of Genocides of innocents ends... Whenever, wherever - whether committed by a foe or an 'ally' - the next Genocide ? Manooshag
Even this poem cannot end the story of Kars!
___________________________________
How Many Souls Can Humans Mourn?
How many souls can humans mourn?
How many mourns sow?
How many mourns unsown?
One, two, three, four, and many more!
Ageless, young, old, some unborn!
What lament? How many more?
Mother, father, sisters, brothers,
And many, many, many others.
Uncountable, unlamentable, ungrieveable.
All are vanished, no bit is left.
Not even a piece of handkerchief
To wipe the tears silently wept.
Eyes, ears, soul, spirits,
Full of dreads, terrors, horrors, fears.
Some say all lies,
Nobody can kill so many lads.
Many babies,
Many brides,
Many mothers, grannies,
More than cats, dogs, sheep, cows.
All done by butcher’s hands, feet, mouths, as well
With other hidden organs, soaked sinfully in blood,
God created spirits; yelled almighty’s name till sighed
After, vocal cords dried, of moist, of lard.
Innocent children were singing just few days before,
For Pashas to live long [Yasha, Yasha our dears,our pashas]
Pashas lived to slash innocent singers’ throats
No voices heard yet to lore in courts.
Yasha, Yasha our dears, our Pashas]
My mother, Viva (Victoria) sang in tears,
I learned Turkish from her indoors.
Today I’m poeting insightfully
Easing
her sourness in cores!
Deny, deny, and deny . . . all lies.
Turks continue to stress, emphasize,
“That was done by our unknowns, not human.
With criminal, scavenger’ hands.”
We are proud of what
We have done in the past.
We are Turks. We are Ottomans.
Our adamant law must never be panned.
We kill the way we like.
No one can break our pike.
Even if others dislike,
They must comply like us, and like.
If anyone objects our way,
Can go to any hell they ray.
The doors are open there to pray
We are Turks; everyone must us obey.
And follow our rule that’s our say.
Even things seem never blue but grey.
We must deny every crime and pray—
Insist to join the EU’s democratic parades.
To live the way we like, they do.
In our land, we behave
The way we have always had;
We can never change till depart.
Everyone knows
We have Ottomans' brain—hands.
We never believe in freedom of speech.
We are not born French, democracy in us can’t preach.
Our tongues should deny and lie.
We can cut every tongue red, white, black.
Scimitars… we carry with pride—
Hidden, yet ready to shine; even in dark.
We will continue to slay forever-again.
Those who denigrate Turkishness.*
In spite of this, who is real Turk man?
Of course, all Frenchmen; hence, Europeans.
Kurds and Armenians did not exist and never will.
They are only names in a thesaurus dear—
They all vanished, never been renowned,
Who are, from which space entered in count!
Kurds are Turks of the mountains,
Armenians forgotten in unknown terrains,
Existing before the pharaohs, never after then;
However, they have never been in our field of domain.
Their lands are ours they have all vanished.
EU countries should know our deeds!
Turkey is our land, only Turks, in resides.
Our skin is white, covering cyanotic blood,
Our hearts born dark; this is our way to last!
We will enter heaven by our scimitars!
We will never see hell! We’re born Turks in every cell.
We can kill till we invade EU lands and stay in their care.
Able to change heaven to hell
And settle always haughty there;
As far as no Armenians, breathe at pier,
Yet like to see their corpses as peer!
___________________________
* Turkish writers prosecuted for denigrating Turkishness like:Orhan Pamuk,Taner Akcam, Cokham Gencay, Baskin Oran, Sehmus Ulek, Murat Yatkin, Ismail Besikci, Omer Asan, Perham Magden, Murat Belge, Murat Pabuc, Elf Safak, Ismat Barkan, Elyas Aktas, Ahmet Altan, Ipek Calislar, Dr. Haluk Gerger, Erol Katriciolgu, Haluk Sahin, Hasan Cemal, Biol Duru, Ragib Zarakolo, Radvan Kisgin, Faith Tas, Kamal Kerncsiz, Abdulla Yalmaz, Attila Yayla, Hrant Dink .
Among them are females: Elf Safak, Perham Magden, and Ipek Calislar. The Justice Ministry recently revealed that 1,700 people were tried under Article 301 in 2006.
The best known cases have all involved comments on the Armenian massacres (source BBC)
Arat Dink (son of Hrant Dink).
Arat Dink (son of Hrant Dink).
It is really pathetic how you believe in what a few nationalist papers in Turkey are saying! Sassounian's column was never changed. In fact, it was the Turkish newspapers that believed the story and perpetuated it. Why don't you read newspapers like Radikal (see its today's issue, for example) that will actually tell you the truth about this story and about how idiotic nationalists believed and perpetuated this story...
The nationalists feed you crap and you swallow it without even pausing and thinking for a second.
Turks are very honest and good men. arent like you.
why so serious son?
wow. racists.
My mother and I were even able to see the house/neighborhood where my grandfather lived when he was a boy. It was an amazing experience.
Wow!
Hye Stephen, Gayane, David and Janine; I have heard so often of Husenig, but I didn't know that it was in Kharpert. My father is Palutsi and Palu with the sourrinding towns is in the State of Kharpert, so yes dear Gayane and Janine we are close. My maternal grandfather's anscestors were originally from Naxichevan, and when the Seljuk Turks charged in from Mongolia anywhere from mid 12 to the 13th centuries, the Armenians rather than totally being slaughtered in there they either went down south or to the west. I know some of them went to Smirna. My grandfather's anscestors went to Dikranagert. So yes, my father is Palutsi which is in the State of Kharpert. From the stories that I have heard from my family and my elders, I can surely relate to my friend Stephen Dulgarian's story above. It's the sad story that every Armenian can relate to ever since the Seljuk Turks invaded our Western Armenian lands from Mongolia.
Dear Stephen; I am also glad that you brought up the Sevres Treaty as well as the Wilson Arbitration Award that is still due to us legitimately and legally binding. Also, I truthfully appreciate the fact that Serge Sarkissian just said it recently that when will our Nuremberg will take place? Very just and truthful reminder to the world powers and to the laws and the legalities within nations.
To: BoyUn -- Because 1) Turkish government has erased most of the Ottoman archives that pertain to the preiod of the Armenian Genocide 1915-1921. The ones that are open for research, based on witness accounts of respectable European and American historians, are falsified and distorted; and 2) Because there is no doubt in the minds of representatives of the progressive humanity, as well as increasing number of foreign parliaments, governments, the European Parliament, 44 states of the U.S., International Association of the Genocide Scholars, leading human rights organizations, historians, and internatinal lawyers that what Turks did to Armenians under Bllody Sultan Hamid and especially under the regime of Young Turks in 1915-1921 was a vivd example of race extermination, read: the GENOCIDE. And the sould of those innocent victims as well as modern generations of the two parts ONE Armenian nation: citizens of the Republic of Armenia and Diasporan Armenians who are direct decsendants of those who were deported, expelled, or survived the barbaric atrocities by the Turks. There is no need to establish commissions on undeniable historical facts, and sooner or later your government will be forced to acknowledge the truth that you're trying to avoid for 95 years. Make no mistake!
To Anton: CORRECTION -- The lands that were inhabitted by the Armenians and the others before nomadic Turkish tribes arrived to the Armenian Plateau in Asia Minor and established their filthy Ottoman empire in only 14th century A.D. have been deliberately emptied by means of race extermination in the early 20th century by the Young Turks. This is divergently different from taking or re-taking others' lands that indeed happenned in history, BTW, most recently in Cyprus when half of the sovereign state was invaded and occupied by the Turks. Invasions and take-overs are one thing, but when take the others' lands by wiping out the whole civilization is nothing else that Genocide. Adn Armenians will neve cease to demand that the Turkish henious crime against humanity be acknowledged and the process already goes on. Try to understand the difference.
As for international borders, again, the borders of Cyprus were also internationally acknowledged. Did it stop the Turks to occupy the island which is other people's land. Well, Armenians long for THEIR lands, their historical, ancestral lands, NOT the lands of the others.
Gokalp -- What your ethnic 'diversity' truly represents is that for centuries Turks have been implementing the policy of forced racial, ethnic and religious interbreeding and integration. This is how the world perceives it. Try to comprehend: when a people is of nomadic origin that settles in the land of other, much more ancient peoples, by means of sword, fire, and barbarity, as your forefathers have done, they begin to forcefully incroporate, convert these indigeneous peoples into their newly-established entity. In addition to barbaric race exterminations, death marches, unutterable tortures that no human being can imagine that fell upon the Armenians, you also had a wide-spread pratice of selling Christian girls to Muslim harems, converting Christian children to Islam, forcing men and women to convert to Islam under the threat of death. I repeat, it was a wide-spread practice that went on for centuries and that affected many indigenious nations that lived long before your savage Seljuk tribes arrived from Central Asia. It is divergently different from a typically immigrant countries like the U.S., Canada, or Australia -- these lands were mostly uninhabitted (not counting small pockets of Indians or aboregenes, of course). Whereas your tribes invaded one of the most populated, inhabitted areas on the world map. And you just found a simple solution: you exterminated all the rightful masters of that land. This is what you call 'multiculturalism' Turkish way? Armenians faced it in the most atrocious, barbaric method of extermination and are still awaiting an apology from all consecutive Turkish governments. Armenians believe that it's nearing: increasing number of foreign parliaments and governments accept the undeniable truth of Armenian Genocide, leading genocide scholars, historians, and international lawyers, as well as dosens of Turkish intellectuals, have no doubt whatsoever that Turks exterminated many ancient races inhabitting the Ottoman Empire as masters, the most tragic of extermination campaigns being the genocied against ethnic Armenias. Wars are a different thing in human history and I'd like to omit the reasons and circumstances surrounding them. But ethnic annihilation of a race as a part of an Ottoman government-planned, government-executed campaing is a TOTALLY different thing. There was no war front in the peaceful Armenian towns and villages in Western Armenia (that as a result of Turkish 'multiculturalism' you now call Eastern Anatolia), so just ask yourself why would your government wipe out peaceful people of one particular, targetted race en masse? This is not just murder during a war. Such cases have unambiguous and clear definition in the international affairs, theory, and practice: GENOCIDE, i.e. deliberate, government-planned extermination of a speciific racial, ethnic, or religious group.
As for your knowledge of historical circumstances that led to Armenian uprising against the Ottoman Turks (which you call 'betrayal' of 'their' country), I wish you could read more and in non-Turkish sources. First, Empires, whether Ottoman or British, or Soviet, for that matter, are never considered 'their' countries by the indigenious peoples who've been invaded and enslaved by outcomers. Second, uprisals that you call 'betrayals,' happen throughout the history in any empire. In the Ottoman empire, scores of ethnic uprisals happened -- people just wanted to free themselves from the Ottoman yoke: Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks, Arab nations, etc. Armenians were not an exclusion, they longed for their independent homeland for centuries. They lost their the last kingdom in the 14th century becoming subjects of the Ottoman empire -- historically known as 'prison of nations' and 'the sick man of Europe.' For some, it's betrayal, for the others, it's national liberation struggle on THEIR own lands. And I admit that based on words of the Western powers and Russia Armenians were promissed Greater Armenia. And I see nothing harmful in a nation's desire to restore statehood that they've lost because Armeniasn were not claiming other nations' lands, they just wanted liberation from a Turkish yoke. However, the response against the Armenian national aspirations that the Turks executed was henious by magnitute and barbarity. Your forefathers chose not to isolate or imprison the leaders of the revolt, but to exterminate the whole Armenian population: innocent men, women, children and the elders, to wipe out the whole ancient civilization, to deprive Armenian subjects of their historical homeland. Try to appreciate the difference, if you can. By means of a national liberation revolt 3 mil Armenians couldn't kill the Turks 'by knife or bullet,' who exceeded Armenians in number, power, and dominance of the state machine. This is a ridiculous argument which also answers your question as to why Armenians couldn't defend themselves during the Genocide. Because you chose to kill unarmed, defensless people. This is an expression of a typical Turkish cowardice, your wolf-like nomadic behavior when multi-million hords attack the minority.
And yes, in historical terms, it's also a Turkish fault that the remaining part of Greater Armenia, the Republic of Armenia, is now economically developing country, although the real reasons lie in the fact that the country has become independent just 18 years ago and still struggles to establish and maintain viable economic infrustructures. As a result of the Genocide we lost fertile lands in Western Armenia where Armenias, despite discriminatory Ottoman laws against the Armenian millet, unbearable taxation, forced military service, pogroms and invasions by the Muslims on Armenian villages, esteblished them as remarkable enterprenuers, commersants, bankers, agricultural developers, as well as achieved mastery and brilliance in poetry, literaute, architecture, trade and commerce. All has been wiped out, what has not has been left in the Soviet Union, a small portion that is now the Republic of Armenia. But don't fool yourself with the state of Armenia's economy, even outside of their nation-state Aremenians are world-renowned for their excellence in business, trade and commerce, arts and sciences. It's in our ancient genes, and we belive that the time will come when they'll serve our greater homeland.
OMG!!!
Armenians know a lot more than anybody in the world. The comment page is like the best encyclopedia i ever seen. Soon i will start to believe that it is armenians who created the civilization, democracy, algebra, science, philosophy. And also they builded the pyramids in egypt, Eiffel Tower in Paris, and 7 star hotel Burj el Arab in Duabi.
Try to be more logical before you say something. Turks came later to anatolia so does it mean that they have to go back to middle asia? Ok, if so called americans go back to europe, if hungarians, finland go back to siberia, Turks will accept to return their motherland.
About Cyprus, what do you know about that island? What happened, how happened, who did what? Do you know the name Nikos Sampson? A greek dictator with ultra-nationalist goals. Turkey didnt conquered only cyprus, but also removed the greek government and brought back democracy to greece. There are thousands of articles written about it. Try to search and read some history about 1960s cyprus. And try to be objective when you read it, i know it is impossible for most of you because greeks are orthodox christians also.
Well, the history has shown the other side of the medal. Your so called peaceful armenian nation has been funding pkk, the armenian government allowed terrorist kurds to reside in armenia eventhough since the begining kurds are also blamed to massmurder armenians in earl 1910s. Bloody terror group asala has been killing innocent diplomats in usa, france, germany...
Just keep in mind before you responde my comment..
Hagop, But you did say wouldn't it have been better if "she" had married an Armenian. I think we all do things that other people wouldn't approve of, but we need to do what is best for us and anyway you don't usually choose who you fall in love with.
Robert?
This reminds me of Robert College(non-turkish establishment)Few turks went there to study...
We have in Armeia more than 40,000 Kurds ,that your ugly Govt. used to call for near 80 yrs...as"mountain turks"at long last now they are obliged to call them by their real name K U R D S .What your Govt. did to them is burn down more than a 1000 villages, past 15-20 yrs.Now they are awakening(some 20 million)? Whne you ostentaciously state Turkey has a poplation of 70 million deduct said 20 million and then many other such like people...what remians thee is turks .In Armenia we tolerate Assyrians, nay they are equal citizes like the kurds there and the other minorities.
To your chagrin IRAN is , hasbeen our very good neighbour and that Mosque in Central Yerevan is the only one because they did not wish to build more.They are welcome to build more if they so wis.At present more than ten thousand Iranians are resdent in Armeia .As to tourism from Iran , it flourishes.We have many kind of Govt. pacts with Iran including MILITARY, also with all 4 more CIS countrries ...read RRRRussia, Kazakstan, and two more..
if any of these is attacked ALL STEP IN!!!!!
YOUR VEIED THREATS ...THEREFORE DO NOT MEAN A THING TO US..also GIT ALOAD OF THIS NOW, NEITHER GREECE, NOR BULGARIA(RECENTLY PRESSED FOR 20 BILLION DOLLARS FOR BLOOD MONEY FROM TURKEY(DID YOU KNOW THAT0 THEN I DN'T THINK ANY ARAB CO UNTRY IS WELL DISPOSED TO YOU,SINCE YOUR PREDECESSOR OTTOAMN TURKEY ASO pursecuted them.
If you and your like persst in addressing us like your imaginary "raya"s you are dead wrong.The Armeian Diaspora knows you and your Govt.s better than ay other..
So think before you put to wrting threat like -as above-posts.I ave only stated what is ACTUALITY...go learn about all that a bit.
Gokalp -- In none in my comments have I remotely alluded that ‘Armenians know a lot more than anybody in the world’ and that it was ‘Armenians who created the civilization, democracy, algebra, science, or philosophy”. This is below Armenians. I just tried to represent a side of the issue of the Armenian Genocide and its historical prerequisites that for 95 years haunts us and is widely shared by the civilized world. I’ll have to repeat: the actions of the Turkish government against Armenians and other Christians during the reign of Bloody Sultan Hamid in the 1890s and the regime of the Young Turks in 1915-1921 constitute a genocide – a crime against humanity that’s being shamelessly denied by all consecutive Turkish governments. These governments brainwash individuals like you, distort history, revise archival evidence, and keep progressive-minded Turks in fear for insulting Turkishness if truth about genocide is revealed by means of imposition of Section 301 of the Turkish Penal Code.
Armenians didn’t create civilization, arts or sciences, but they contributed heavily into these areas. And this is by no means an expression of nationalism or national uniqueness; it’s a fact that any nation would take pride of. And I don’t have a small-mindedness to claim that Armenians built Egyptian pyramids or Eiffel Tower. But we built many other architectural marbles that’s been barbarically destroyed by your forefathers in Western Armenia. Some ruins still remain and even destroyed they’re still magnificent: go to Ani and judge by yourself. What is illogical that you found in my comments? Statement of facts is illogical? Or you’re just envious that Turks have never excelled in producing anything valuable or contributing uniquely to the human civilization? I tend to believe, and I’m sorry to say this if I hurt your feelings, that this complex of inferiority of the Turks has played perhaps the major role in exterminating the Ottoman Armenians. 80% of trade, commerce and banking business was in the hands of Armenians in Turkey, many Armenians traveled to leading European universities and excelled there, developed arts, literature, created unique architectural structures, maybe not as monumental as Egyptian pyramids, but still picturesque in their own beauty.
And I by no means propagated that you return to where you belong in Altay and Mongolian steppes simply because I understand that migration of such a magnitude is impossible. What is required from you is to apologize to Armenians for wiping out their Western Armenian civilization from the face of the Earth. But you, as cowards, consistently deny to repent and this is exactly what Armenians and the increasing number of foreign governments urge you to do, if you consider yourselves slightly advanced from your nomadic origin and towards a more civilized, truly secular nation.
As for Cyprus, I have enough general knowledge to add my voice to the voices of international community: what Turks did in the 1970s was clearly an invasion of a sovereign state, and no childish excuses of “what happened, how happened, who did what” can justify the inexcusable meddling in the domestic affairs of an independent state of Cyprus and Turkey’s explicit military intrusion into the territory of a sovereign UN member-state.
Lastly, I’m not aware of your unfounded accusations of Armenia funding the PKK, and that the Armenian government allowed Kurds to reside in Armenia. Yes, there’s a Kurdish minority residing in the republic from ancient times, but one must have compelling evidence that all or some of them are terrorists. Kurds are, indeed, known to having taken part in the Turkish government-sponsored genocidal campaign against Armenians, when Turks instigated Kurdish bands to kill and rob starving and destitute Armenian women and children, attacking them from their back during the Turk-organized death marches. History knows that as well.
As for ASALA, no terrorist actions are justified, but you have to construct a reason-consequence connection in trying to understand their actions. Killing Turkish diplomats in the 1970s and 1980s in some European countries was retaliation against a heinous crime committed by the Turks against the Armenian nation. Please consider reasons, if you can, before you write about consequences…
Every Armenian needs to educate themselves about the Treaty of Sevres.
but the photo was realistic.:D:D
Harut writes that "It is not known who concocted this elaborate
hoax." But why speculate it was a hoax and not check the sources?
All one would have to do is take a few of the names in the article and
type them into Google and it would've led you directly to Zaytung.
Since you apparently don't know Turkish, you could've then gotten
someone who does explain the website to you and they
would've quickly understood from other articles that this is
clearly a satire newspaper like The Onion.
Instead you used this opportunity to speculate upon why someone would
create a "hoax" because apparently your imagination could not believe that it was in fact written by Turks.
This article doesn't meet even basic journalistic standards and reads more like propaganda.
I dont have time to write a respond but please dont hesitate to read this link.
http://www.armenian--genocide.com/2007/10/norman-stone-genocide-lies-are-based-on.html
Written by Norman Stone, a history professor from UK, excellent career, has been working as the political advisor of UK prime minister between 1987-1990.
Resoman, I have seen comments by rabid Turkophiles posted on this site. Your claims are unfounded.
_
I do have a quesiton to you, though: Would you rather see the historic Armenia in responsible Armenian hands and not see further destruction of human memory? You sound like the pretentious Demirel. Of course you would "be against nationalism" when the status quo of a landlocked and weakened Armenia favors the Turkish position. All "moderate" Turks hold this so-called "moderate" position. It is easy fodder in this day an age, a time when dsicrediting "nationalism" is a pretentious act of point scoring: The modern day mantra goes as such - "You see, I hate nationalists, and therefore I am so god damned tolerant." Tolerance of Evil is not respect nor compassionate concern. It is a manner of weakening your opponent in a snakelike manner.
_
Armenians don't need more pro-Turkish games by the puppet masters. We don't need an open border with a known and proven belligerent whose population is still being taught to hate Armenians at an accelerated rate, more than ever. Tell the Turkish "side" to retract their lessons of evil and hate, first in the form of 12 million DVDs of "how the Armenian committed genocide against Turks" nonsense, and then perhaps the so-called credibility of such "peaceful doves" as you will slightly improve.
Dear David, Janine, and Nairian, what I regret the most is not hearing enough stories about my ancestors.. My grandparents hardly ever shared their memories about their parents journey and theirs during and after the Genocide.. I don't blame them..I regret that no one was able to collect the valuable stories that my great grandfather knew... Even though my mom told me pieces of what my great grandfather used to do I learned about his work just recently in the book called Old and New Kharpert.. This was written by one of the residents' son about the residents of Kharpert in Armenia....my great grandfather wrote a page or two about his life and his family and the last 5 pages were copies of the letters of those people who he helped to reunite with their lost ones.. When he arrived from Old Kharpert and settled in Nor Kharpert in Armenia, he begun his work, without financial help from anyone (he also refused any money from the families who wanted to pay for his services) finding orphans that still remained in Turkey and those that were lost and sold to Muslims... He helped thousands of families.. he had associations with US, France and Russia... His tremendous work was absolutely amazing..... Because of him, Nor Kharpert put up a monument for all the lost souls during Genocide... In addition, there is a section about my great grandfather and his family in the Nor Kharpert's School Museum....
His love for his country and his people allowed him to do the most noble job leaving him penniless (his family wealth and lands were forcefully taken by Turkish govt during the Genocide) but he died a happy man.. his name will always be remained in those individuals that he helped and of course he will remain our "DeDe" and "Paron Ter-Petrossyan" to the world...
His will when he wrote his little autobio was: Yes chem uzenar vor im nman taparashrjik kyanq apreq, bayts ur al mnaq u apriq, dzer arevturi yev gortsneutyan mech ughamit mnatseq. Chqavornerun ognenq vorchap vor krnaq dzer andznakan gorts@ chvnaselu chapov, vnasarar mardonts yev kazmakerputyunnerits heru mnatseq... His also said.. After I pass, never ever forget to keep ties with your family and relatives...
Unfortunately, I have never visited Turkey nor the ancient lands... hoping that one day I will be able to visit my ancestrial lands and see where my great grandfather and his family came from...but I know that all my days there will be spent crying my eyes out... My heart would not take seeing our country under Turkish govt and in ruins...I have hope though... hope that one day we will have our grand Armenia back...
Gayane
Dr. Deranian
I tried to add you on my facebook but there are four of you..:) Which one is you?
Please advise.
Thank you
Gayane
For every writer on this site and others:
"When you read please analyze, if you can't
your brain cells might transform a photocopy device."
Sylva-MD-Poetry
Does Mr. Norman Stone knows more than Prof. Taner Akam, Orhan Pamuk and many intellectual Turkish writers?
Stone came to Turkey to enjoy his life, were he was spoiled by rich Turkish students who enter university to get just a degree!
Please read what Sir Edward Heath said about him:
When Norman Stone was professor of modern history at Oxford, Sir Edward Heath is reported to have said of him, "Many parents of Oxford students must be both horrified and disgusted that the higher education of our children should rest in the hands of such a man." The Oxford University Students Union passed a motion condemning him, after he wrote a newspaper column opposing the idea of homosexual marriage, as a "racist, sexist, homophobe". The horror ran both ways: asked, on his departure from Oxford, why he was taking a post at a Turkish university, Professor Stone told the press that the students there were "less smelly and more attentive".
There are more to read and analyze!
Please correct Orhan Pamuk
and not Pabuk
Thanks
Dr. Khatchig you went back
To touch the Khatch
Where your ancestors proudly carved.
You archived your ambition
That is something in your life
Sounds, serenades great.
I hope one day you will see
Your grandchildren playing,
On that ground,
That place, it touched your heart.
Nothing is impossible in life
If hopes with determination
Are believed and blessed!
As English proverb curls,
"Where there is a will there is a way."
Written Instantly
Dear "Armenian, and Proud" Guy,
I can totally understand how you feel about the issue. You are furious, disappointed, and seek for justice, right? However, you are off topic. If we are talking about a historical issue, we should look over it from a scientific methodology that historians use. Therefore, we should keep our own point of view at the back of our minds. It is true and we all accept that the Armenian were exiled in the WW I period out of Anatolia. Have you ever thought why? Have you ever attempted to dig the reasons out? Or have you ever put yourself in a Turk's shoes? How might they feel about being accused for a genocide? Neither I nor you have not seen what exactly happened in 1915. We are talking from the perspective what we have been taught and supposed to talk. You are accusing my nation for killing children, pregnant women, babies etc. What do your claims exactly depend on? On some silly, manipulated, black-white photographs without references? Or on some bullshit quotations? I have grown up in Turkish education system and I have been taugth exactly the opposite you have been taught. The Armenian killed children, raped women, ripped off the bellies of pregnant women, burned villages down. They showed us the similar photos that you have been propagating on as the proof. There are also many famous quotations, jokes that insulting Armenians. Those quotations are not taught in schools, but the public knew them anyway. Should I use them as an item to support my thesis? No, because, they are bullshit. You also should not believe those bullshits you have just used. You have to understand that I feel the same pain you feel because my nation also lost almost 1 milion people during the wars between the years 1914-1922. For example, it is told me that my grand grandfather went to the war as a soldier during WW I and the Armenian invaded the village in which he was serving and locked up all the people in the village including my grand grandfather into a mosque and burned all down. We have never got even the corpse of him. Just a letter says he is dead. What can you say about that? or let me ask it that way: Should I accuse you for that? I do not accuse you for that. You should not also accuse me for what happened in a stupid war that I have never involved in. I am just asking you to understand the point that, there was a war in 1915, and both sides have prosecuted extreme violance each other. Turks were holding the authority power in their hands and they practiced it in the way of banishment. If the Armenian had the authority power, they would have taken the similar decisions and exiled all the Turks out of Anatolia. That is how politics work. So, we have got similar pain inside, we have to understand and respect to the pain we all feel. I respect your pain and sorry for all your losses. Do you understand and respect my pain and apologize for my losses?
Hi from Istanbul,
I know past is very painfull, as a Turk, i can understand how it is, most of Turks are really verry sorry, about that. But i beileve that, there is no noble race or noble blood in the world. I have lots of Armenian friends here in Istanbul. I used to live in London and New York, i felt i am closer to Greeeks, Armenians than English and Americans. We are from same place, here is also your country. i am sure when you come to your parent's lands you will feel different, you will feel better. I beileve that all Anatolian people are relatives. Lets never forget the past, but lets talk about better future for everyone. There was not only bad things between Armenians and Turks, there were lots of good things. We have lived together 1000 years, still leaving together in istanbul.
Anyway I've just wanted to say hello from my and your country.
God bless Azerbaijan.And we are always together with them.
I like my Armenian friends in TR and indeed no problem between Armenians who lives in Armenia. But Diaspora wish and like these applauces. Cause they love only USD,CND and Euros..
To Istanbul: Hi from historical Armenian cities above to a commentator from ancient Bysantine capital of Konstantinople, invaded by nomadic Turks in the 15th century and which magnificent Christian churches like Hagia Sophia have been transformed into mosques. Hi! What a soft diplomatic, typically Turkish, carfully chosen stock of words that you think readers will buy, but you're mistaken. First of all, if you're sorry for the Armenians' pain you'll need to apologize to them. Second, we are NOT from the same place: Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians were living in the Asia Monir and Armenian Plateau fro millennia before nomadic Seljuk tribes arrived to the are with sword and fire only in the 11th century AD. Third, it is not ALSO our country. It IS our country which you've emptied in the most barbaric, atrocious way throughout the centuries of the Ottoman empire and found a final solution in 1915-1921 by perpetrating Genocide against Armenians, wiping out the population, destroying their architectural, educational, religious monuments and municipal and rural dwellings. Fourth, of course we'll feel different visiting the lands of our ancestors: it''ll cause us a great pain to see that the whole civilization was wiped out from the face of the earth and vitually all of their monuments destroyed or transformed to sheep houses by "civilized" Turks... Fifth, we are not relatives: Armenians belong to Indo-European Christian family of nations whereas Turks are of nimadic Turcik Muslim origin. But if you meant that we are all human beings, I, of course, agree. Sixth, there have been good things between us, too, of course, but these good things never stopped your forefathers to exterminate the whole race. Seventh, we have't lived together for 1000 years: Armenians had to live under the Ottoman yoke beginning the 14th century until the Genocide, the early 20th century, which makes it under 600 years. But Armenians have a multi-millennia history that goes well beyond those enslaved Ottoman years. Lastly, a pocket of Armenians, some 60,000 out of 3 mln who survived Turkish slaughters, is still preserved in Konstantinople, living in fear. Especially after the expression of Turkish "good-neighbourly" attitude towards them, when prominent Turkish journalist of Armenian origin Hrant Dink was assasinated in the daylight in the centre of the city.
I just wanted to say hello from ancient Armenian provinces and cities of Van, Moush, Diyarbekir (Tigranakert), Bitlis, Sassoun, Kars, Ardahan, and many, many others...
Yeah, Azerbaijan is the same Turkic tribe that never existed on the worldmap before the 20th century and that has stollen his name from the historical Iranian province. God cannot bless a country that, similar to their barbaric ethnic brethren of Turks, treats non-Muslims byrace extermination, as shown to the world in Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait and Baku in the late 1980s against the Armenian residents... Similar wolf-like savage behavior. And God never blesses the murderers, at least in the Christian faith.
in 1915 only armenians not died, a lot of turkish killed.you know.I dont hate armenians and ı am turkish..But armenians must be optimistic because turkish is optimistic..Those events not finish...
And one more thing re: Turks and Aremnians living together in Konstantinople. Was it not your prime-minster, copying your Ottoman forefathers' treatment of Armenians, who recently declared that he'd deport Armenians living in Turkey? Just as Young Turks deported and massacred virtually all Armenian population in the early 1920s. What moron cna believe that Turks can ever live "together" in a non-violent manner with other, non-Muslim, non-Turkic civilizations. Your nation's record is proven. Your cheap, snakelike words are of no avail...
To Istanbul,
Much thanks for you comments. I can attest to the fact that the culture of Turks and Armenians does seem to come from a common Anatolian culture. At least that was my experience when I visited where my grandfather grew up as a boy in Kharpert/Elazig.
It is common knowledge in my family that during the 1896 massacres when some 150,000 to 200,000 Armenians were killed, a Turkish family hid my family, at risk to their own lives I would imagine. What is so unfortunate for the Turkish people I believe is that your real heros, those that saved Armenians, at risk to their own lives, are not celebrated. Instead the government perpetuates a mythology about the Young Turks, who in my opinion destroyed the Ottoman Empire.
This is such a missed opportunity for Turks. It's my hope that soon the Turkish government will see the light, so to speak, and recognize the true Turkish heros.
Gökalp,
WOW!
1. "Soon i will start to believe that it is armenians who created the civilization, democracy, algebra, science, philosophy. And also they builded the pyramids in egypt, Eiffel Tower in Paris, and 7 star hotel Burj el Arab in Duabi."
No one claimed that we created or built any of the above. However, Armenians did create a lot, if you care to know. Have you ever wondered who built those beautiful palaces in Istanbul that Turks so proudly show to tourists? Have you ever heard of the Balyan family of architects? Did you know how many of the historical buildings were designed by the members of this Armenian family alone? Dolmabache, Beylerbeyi, Ciragan ...
Have you heard of Mimar Sinan, the most prominent Ottoman architect? I bet you don't even want o know that he was of Armenian ethnicity.
The ancient Armenian capital Ani has been featured many times in the international press as the "magical city of the 1001 churches" and an architectural gem. Sadly, it is totally neglected by your government in an effort to completely erase anything related to Armenians.
Check to see what Zulfu Livaneli, a prominent Turkish poet, says in "Turkey is the big secret of the West." I quote his own words: "Armenians wrote the most beautiful Turkish poems. Armenian architects built the most beautiful mosques and palaces in Istanbul."
As you can see, he has a very different view of the Armenians. He also does not suffer from the same insecurities as you do. You don't have to make fun of others or try to diminish them to feel good about yourself.
Tell me what the Turks built. Please don't include any ancient Greek monuments or Assyrian monuments in Mesopotamia.
2. "Turkey didnt conquered only cyprus, but also removed the greek government and brought back democracy to greece."
What does Turkey know about democracy? I suggest that you overcome your own problems with human rights and freedom of speech, first, before shamelessly occupying the lands of others. How can a country establish democracy elsewhere when its own citizens go to jail for speaking the truth? Did the Cypriots ask for your help to establish democracy?
3. "And also todays armenia is the poorest christian country except africa in the world. Is it Turks fault or is it because you still dont know what economic growth is?"
First of all, Armenia is NOT the poorest Christian country in the world.
Turkey has a lot do with Armenia's economy. It has been imposing an illegal blockade for many years. I am not sure how well YOU would do in our position.
Secondly, do you follow news at all? Do you know that there is no more Soviet Union and ALL former Soviet republics went through a very difficult transitional period? The only reason that your brother Azeris are not dying of hunger is because they sell oil.
Did you also hear that there was a devastating earthquake in Armenia in 1989 that caused lots of deaths and destruction?
Second of all, Armenians have always done well economically, everywhere in the world. It's just a matter of time. Don't worry, we'll be fine.
4. "Turkey is spending almost half of its national income to military to fight against PKK and compete with greek army. Turkey funds northern cyprus, Turkey doesnt have natural gas or oil resources or any other important reserves. It is only a productive nation."
WOW! I believe a lot of what you spent on your military is financed by the USA. Am I right? I pay lots of taxes (by the way I am doing quite well economically, in case you are interested), USA gives it to Turkey to keep the big army, and you are being so ungrateful, Gökalp. How can you?
5. "Your so called peaceful armenian nation has been funding pkk"
It turns out that Armenians aren't so poor after all.
6. And, by the way, christian, greek, cyprus, and armenia ar proper nouns. Next time start with a capital letter.
Regards.
To Gayane,
How fortunate you are to have had such a wonderful great-grandfather - a real patriot and a good man.
To Gayane,
As far as I know, it's just David Deranian. You can also contact me at rderanian@hotmail.com
To hagopn
What is historic Armenia or historic Turkey?
Then we should pack all the people of the world (approx. 6,5 billion) into a small area in Tanzania where the human race emerged millions of years ago. Or we will all live side by side on the skirts of the Mount Ararat where the Noah's ark landed after the flood.
I welcome the people who are anti-nationalist, and anti-religious. Sorry, I can't change my view. What I understand from your post, you kind of favor Turkish nationalism. If you do so, I do mind, but it is your own business, I am not going to try to change your mind.
That's interesting;
"whose population is still being taught to hate Armenians"
Those who hate Armenians are bad guys, but people like me who don't hate Armenians are also bad guys. We all bad guys.
"Would you rather see the historic Armenia in responsible Armenian hands and not see further destruction of human memory?"
I don't care who would be responsible for the area claimed by the Armenians, Turks or Kurds, as long as people can live together in peace. My family have been relocated so may times in the past at the cost of loss of unknown number of members. I don't care where I would live in the future. Preferably, at a place where the nationalists do not exist.
On the other hand, none of my family members have ever lived in the eastern Turkey, my family was the suffering side in the eastern Europe from where they have been expelled by some other ethnic nationalists.
So, I am not trying to defend any members of my family for the sad incident that happened in the eastern lands. One of the reasons that I read the pages here, as I stated above, I have so many Armenian friends in Armenia or outside. Also, our best neighbor in my childhood was an Armenian family who lived next door, with whom we had excellent relationship for years and years.
I am so glad that she has gained her freedom back. My wishes for all those who are wasting their lives in the dark cells for nothing. I hope that one day they will achieve a successful revolution that will release the Iranians from the oppressive regime. Let there be light, more light.
Very well said Western Armenia jan..
I know you are passionate about our country and people like I am and i can feel it from how you write...I agree with everything you said and more.
However, I also agree with Dr. Deranian about recognizing those Turks who truly against all odds are standing up to their govt and doing what is just and true.. We can't forget those indivduals..Just like Dr Deranian stated this is such a missed opporunity for Turks because their govt is covering up and continues to cover up the history and hope one day they will ... I pray God that they will...
Gayane
Western Armenia, love your strong voice! I hope Istanbul can understand that your passion comes from the pain our people endured and the re-injury that occurs every time a "well-meaning" Turk suggests we have so much in common. Did Istanbul mean well? Were those words sincere? I don't know. What I do know is that Istanbul's words were like a tiny drop in the ocean of acknowledgment and validation that we as a nation deserve from the descendants of the Young Turks and Ottoman Empire.
To Istanbul: You don't have the right to make light of our loss and to claim kinship with us. Your eyes are beginning to open but you have so much more to grasp. You are the inheritor of a stolen fortune, a stolen culture and a stolen history. It will be painful for you and your people to come to terms with this, but you must or risk remaining the descendants of the "sick man of Europe."
as you all say Armenia liberated those occupied territories which are occupied in the views of Azeri Turks. Therefore, Armenians are the agressors as Armenia is trying to defend so called liberated territories but occupied by armenia to everyone else in the world. If armenia wants peace then they need to gracefully exit from Karabagh which belongs to its real owners, Azeris..
Turan
Bloody armenians we turks will never recognize so-called armenian genocide. Since you are bad people, bad things happened to you and I am not sorry for you.
Turkish genocide of Armenians also has afflicted Greeks, including my parents. I have documentation in an article I've written. I'd welcome Armenians reading it, and recognizing they have a fellow victim and ally in the Greeks. - Silvia Beres in Eugene, Oregon.
Hey, “Human” and Proud Boy –
God forbid, I’d never try to put myself in a Turk’s shoes: I don’t want to become a nomadic savage, invader, genocide perpetrator, death march organizer, rapist, sly, cunning, and soulless mass exterminator, and the like. Oh, no, for Christ’s sake…
Let’s accept for a split second that none of us know what happened in 1915-1921 under the Young Turks, and even earlier in the 1890s under Bloody Sultan Hamid, as the world came to know this Turk. Let’s pretend that Armenian and Turks can be biased in their judgments of the past events. At this juncture, historical methodology, as you quite correctly remarked, comes forth, and one of the methodological tools in the hands of unbiased historians is a comparative study on the issue in the world archiveseyHeical too and repositories (note, not just Turkish archives, where materials pertaining to the Armenian Genocide have been destroyed and those that remain distorted to benefit the Turkish position, but other countries’ archives). There’s an abundance of materials in the British, French, German, Greek, Italian, Russian, and the U.S. archives to name the few. These archives contain clear, well-documented, and referenced materials about the Ottoman government-planned and government-executed genocidal campaign against the Ottoman subjects – the Armenians. For your knowledge, the International Association of the Genocide Scholars, that unites thousands of leading world genocide scholars, has already made an unambiguous conclusion: in 1915-1921 the Turkish government has committed an act of mass extermination of a specific ethnic, racial, and religious minority group – the Armenians. The acts of the Turkish government fall under the definition of the Genocide. If the Association’s conclusion is not enough, please add some 30 foreign parliaments and governments that accepted the fact of the Genocide perpetrated by the Turks, some 44 states of the United States of America, the European Parliament, leading international human rights organizations, scores of respectable historians, genocide scholars and international lawyers, as well as dozens of your own intellectuals who were expelled from Turkey for “insulting Turkishness,” that is for speaking the truth about the Armenian Genocide.
And I’m not surprised that you’re being taught exactly the opposite in your schools. In fact, your school children are still being taught to hate Armenians at an accelerated rate, more than ever. It’s come to the world’s attention recently that 12 million DVDs of “how the Armenians committed genocide against Turks” have been distributed among the schools to teach exactly the opposite. Because your government knows too well that it’s hard to sell to the Turkish public the fact that their founding fathers were essentially mass murderers and criminals. And it seems easier for them to continue to deny that the Genocide of Armenians happened rather than repent, apologize to the Armenians, and acknowledge the historical truth.
I have nothing to apologize to you, because you’re a government propaganda-brainwashed Turk believing, in contrast to the civilized world’s opinion and acknowledgment, that it was “the Armenians who killed Turks”. What a profound cynicism, ignorance, and impudence on the part of the Turkish government who, knowing the truth, disallows its citizens to even research and speak about the issue out loud by threatening to use Provision 301 of the Turkish Penal Code. Those who speak out the truth are either being expelled, or thrown in prison, or killed in the daylight in the centre of Constantinople, as Hrant Dink.
As for your “scientific methodology that historians use”, please read further and you’ll find out in preferably non-Turkish sources, that there was no war front in the provinces inhabited by Armenians in Western Armenia (that Turks transformed into “Eastern Anatolia”: you’re good at transforming everything non-Turkish into Turkish). No war was going on in the remote central and eastern parts of Turkey where Armenians resided in their lands for millennia. The fronts were in the Western parts, in the Balkans, and until 1917 in the remote Eastern part bordering Russia. Is this what you’re being taught in schools about the WWI? Poor, brainwashed people. Even if we admit there was a front crossing through the Armenian-populated towns and villages, what do innocent, unarmed, impoverished, defenseless women, children, and the elderly had to do with it that all were massacred in the most indescribable, barbaric manner, that is typically Turkish? What was their guilt?
The Genocide of the Armenians is not about war, which implies there were enemies, or about intercommunal violence, which implies there were ethnic or religious communities. It’s about the targeted, deliberate, government-executed annihilation en masse of an ancient civilization of the Western Armenians. And no, Christian Armenians are not savages who, had they had authority power, “would have taken the similar decisions and exiled all the Turks out of Anatolia.” We don’t have a wolf-like, undeveloped, uncivilized mentality like yours to mass murder human beings. I have nothing to apologize for your pain because my forefathers haven’t inflicted it on you by wiping out your civilization, exterminating your whole population, and depriving them of your historical homeland. I don’t have to apologize to you because Armenians haven’t mass murdered your nation. But YOU WILL, sooner or later. And it’s better be sooner than later, because you’d have a chance to show to the civilized world that you progressed a yota from being nomadic savages to becoming compassionate and repenting nation.
Ayo Boyajian jan.. Shat shat chisht es...
There is no comparison or kinship among Turks and Armenians.. Never was and never will be. It is unfortunate but we have to face the truth... However, maybe people like Istanbul (if he is genuine) who represents one drop in the deep dark ocean may be the first wave to bring back the the clean, light blue ocean...I wish to believe that.. and hope that it may become true...
Gayane
Resoman, you either suffer from a serious reading comprehension problem, or you are cynical to the extreme. Your co-called "views" are a pretentious baggage of styllish platitiudes. Your message basically reads: "Oh, I love you all , but Armenians should be the good little lovable millet and be satisfied with what they have, which is nearly nothing, so that the rest of us can live in peace." You avoid the question of Armenian self-reliance like the plague. Suddently, you consider that "too nationalist" a question. The rest of the "we are the world" grabage means nothing.
I am still amazed at how we, the Armenian people have been almost always ignored and set aside regarding the Genocide. Could it be that we are not truly trying to focus on this event....There is almost no, and I repeat no documentary which is aired on tv, and when it is aired, the commentators are truly almost apologetic and insipidly ineffectual in sending the message. Wake up!!! Pretty soon no one will remember the Genocide.
Gina,
What are you talking about? Many of your "facts" are flawed! In your Point 1, you ask what has Turkey built? The Ottoman Empire lasted for over seven centuries (and that's how Empires grow...by conquering others, like it or not). I believe that your Armenian Empire lasted a tad shorter than did the Ottoman, yes? As for your Point 2, Turkey is a secular democratic republic, has been since 1923. What part of this do you not understand? Contrast that with Armenia, who has one of the most corrupt governments in the world, who is the most religiously oppressed nations, has a poor economy and must rely on foreign aid hand outs just to survive, has been and still is a supporter of terrorism, etc. Perhaps these are just some of the many reasons why every month, approximately 6,000 Armenians flee in a mass exodus, from Armenia, many coming to Turkey to live (mostly as illegals). As for Cyprus, best that you keep your nose out of something that you OBVIOUSLY know nothing about! My oldest sister was raped and mutilated while visiting her friend in Cyprus in 1965 by the Greek EOKA-B, when they broke into her friend's home!! She was only 14! So don't even go there!! Your Point 3 regarding the earthquake of 1989. So? Turkey had a major quake in Istanbul with devestating results. It picked itself up and rebuilt, and DIDN'T WHINE ABOUT IT trying to garner sympathy! Nor did it demand an increase in foreign aid at the expense of others, as constantly does Armenia. In your Point 4...Gina, I'm a tax payer too. Show me where Turkey is ungratefull for anything, and don't bother pointing to contrived points that are reactions to being stabbed in the back by a friend and ally (one whose congress cow-tows to the whim of a deep-pockets Armenian diaspora, with endless bribe money, yet shamelessly accussing every Turk with an oppossing view point as being a "paid agent of Turkey")! Your Point 5 proves, via your snide remark, that Armenians are and always have been supporters of terrorism (PKK). Nothing new here (the world's intelligence communities have long since known this fact, especially how collected money is funneled from Greek and Armenian orthodox churches to Syria and Lebanon, for ex-ASALA members to arm and train the PKK so that they can murder more innocent people). Gee Gina, looks like you've got a lot to learn, huh!!! Or didn't they teach you this in AYF!
Thank you Dr. Deranian jan...
He sure was.. I now understand and know where I got my passion, love and strong connection to my people and country...from him..:) I am his great granddaughter.. :)
Gayane
I am happy for that.
GOOD FOR HER, IRAN DID THE right thing.
Good job. children all over the world need to have a voice on abuse.
Dear Gayane -- how can I find you on Facebook?
Istanbul -- I have met some Turkish people like you. Thank you for your comments. I, too, have a story of my grandmother and great grandmother being saved by a Turkish woman. She was the widow of a military officer -- the soldiers could not come into the home because it was forbidden by law for them to enter the home of a woman living alone. She hid at least 18 Armenians in her basement as far as I know. This is how they survived.
Best wishes,
Janine
To Tolma Tumay -- Bad things also happen to good people, you moron. Bad things happened to Armenians by the bloody hands of the Turks, because despite discriminating Ottoman laws with regard to non-Turkic, non-Muslim millets, heavy unjust taxation, humiliating limitations on electoral process, and constant destructtion of Aremenian communities by the Muslims (Turks, Kurds, and Circessians), Armenians were in a more dominant social position as compared to the Turks in terms of their skills, professionalism, education, mastery in arts, sciences, trade, commerce, banking business, and architecture. THAT is why you, nomadic outcomers, envied Armenians, and, like Nazis, decided to execute a final solution: exterminate all of them with no mercy or compassion. Who is worse: a Turkish butcher or an Armenian victim, you imbecile?
Dear Janine,
Given the hawkish, non-conciliatory tone of many Turkish visitors in this forum, who are obviously brainwashed by what they're being taught in schools, I'd expect that in addition to your comment you'd pose several compelling questions: 1)whom was that Turkish woman hiding your grandmother and great grandmother from? 2) why would she need to save those 18 Armenians? 3)who posed a life threat to your realtives? 4)why wouldn't the Ottoman government protect their own subjects?, and the like... And let's see what these brainwashed Turks would have to say about it. Maybe they finally look in a non-Turkish source describing the events of those cataclysmic for Armeians years? Maybe they would find an answer to a question that the whole civilized world already knows as to what happenned to 3 millions of Armenians inhabitting several provinces in the Ottoman Empire for millennia? Maybe they would finally come accross a clarification that it was a Turkish government-planned deliberate campaign of race extermination, and not a war, intercommunal violence and bull**** that they are being taught at schools. But do Turks have a mental capacity and a courage to do such an independent research or it'll be punished by Provision 301, Penal Code? Or maybe theyare afraid if they raise their voice in support of the historical truth they'll be shot to death as Hrant Dink or deported as Orhan Pamuk?
Janine jan..
You can find me by searching for Gayane Voskanyan... :) (I think) :)
Gayane
Robert or whatever your real name is,
What part of it YOU don't understand?
What are millions of your countrymen doing in Germany and the rest of Europe? Why did they leave their "prosperous" country?
Your friend was talking about Pyramids and Burj al Arab, which are buildings, not empires. And yes, I am very curious to know (really) what, for example, you show to tourists as architectural pieces that were perceived and designed by people of your ethnicity (during the hundreds of years of your existence and by many tens of millions of you) that are in the same league as the ones built by others.
I can claim that genocide did not occur (I strongly believe that it did) if I want to on the Armenian TV and no one will send me to prison. Can you do the same in Turkey?
My point 5 does not prove anything. It's just an answer to your arrogant friend to show the inconsistencies in his reasoning.
A nation of 70 million is supposed to have a larger economy than a nation of 2.5 million. I thought it was quite clear.
Robert -- This Western given name doesn't really fit into the rubbish that you're mumbling. You'd be better off by inventing names for yourself from your "heroic" state founders like the Devil's Advocates, as they're internationally known, Tallat, Enver, Djemal, Kemal, and the like.
Dude, you either suffer from a fundamental reading comprehension problem, or you are ignorant and impudent to the extreme.
Hye, and as Archbishop Mesrob Ashjian, of blessed memory, too, with fellow Armenians travelled to Turkey to visit the villages of their families with Armen Aroyan's tour had also found, so many of the churches fallen to ruins, with only the birds nesting and singing... In each of these churches together they sang the Sharagans, and prayed. Then, in one village - listening, where children were playing and singing... the melody Armenian - the words Turkish. A grandmother, Armenian, had to have passed this on to her 'family'.... Manooshag
To AlperT: We are ONE indivisible people, and the only reason there exists Republic of Armenia and the Armenian Diaspora worldwide (if you ever asked yourself that question) is because the Diaspora is a consequence of race extermination and mass deportation that your grandparents have committed in cold blood, mass murdering and expelling roughly 3 mln of the Ottoman Armenians from the lands they've been living for millennia. You may be having no problems with Armenians, if they're Armenians it doesn't mean they from the start hate you because you're a Turk. The problem goes deeper than your superficial argument re people-to-people contacts. It is your government that denies the genocide for 95 years and avoids apologizing to Armenians for a henious, most barbaric crime against humanity -- the Armenian Genocide. And let me assure you, more than everything the Diaspora Armenians in their third and even fourth generation love their ancestral homeland from which their grandparents have been deported and many more brutally killed by the Turks. But you may vontinue daydreaming that Diasporans only love money. Look what happens in a decade from now...
Ardaghan, of course your questions are important. And about the brainwashed nationalists you are right (especially the crazier voices we get once in awhile around here). But I felt that "Istanbul" was sympathetic and I took his or her comments at face value.
When I was a student at University, I met a Turkish Ph.D. candidate studying history. He was from Trebizond. He took me aside and asked me about my family, and told me he believed everything I said. He also suggested - warning me - that I not necessarily identify myself to other Turkish students there as Armenian because they would be hostile. I like to think now that this man perhaps has grown to become another brave Taner Akcam or one of the intellectuals we can admire for their courage. I hope he did not wind up in a Turkish prison. My great grandfather was a courageous man who wanted a Turkey with a Bill of Rights for all minorities such as he had encountered in the US; on the other side my grandfather was a tough nationalist. Should I not at least honor people who want the truth, as opposed to the hate-filled people I've met who hated me on sight when they found out I was Armenian? I remember that too. And the story about the Turkish woman (whose rights counted when our people's did not) was also important in that setting.
Ardaghan jan..
You hit the bulls eye... Turks who talk nonsense should listen to Janine's story and many others whose relatives were hidden during the Genocide and go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, that is very odd... hmmmmmm i wonder why that happened? could it be because Turkish Govt was executing complete annhiliation of a race and good hearted Turks had to hide these Armenians from being kileed... WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAA>. that makes sense... Of course... There had to Genocide for those Turks to hide Armenians despite having the chance of being killed themselves....
Gayane
George, where can I get your story??
To: Armenian Christian
1) You talk about turkish government that erased and folsified Ottoman archives but you dont talk about armenian and other armenian lover governments who erased and folsified arhives (I mean french, soviet, american). So please be fair. If you dont want turkish archives to be opened open other archives dont afraid if you believe that the truth on your side. I have to notice that I dont claim anything. Just let the historians to do their work and the whole world will know the truth (whatever the truth is).
2) Represantatives of progressive humanity kill/killed people in Africa, Afganistan, Iraq, Algire, Vietnam and so on. And please dont tell me that this so called progressive humanity is fair. Why dont this progressive humanity represantatives talk about what armenians did in Khojaly (Even your writer Zori Balayan wrote in his book about the armenian barbarism in Karabagh). And this is a new history, not in archives. Why dont this progressive humanity represantatives talk about what armenians did in Azerbaijan in 1915-1918?
May be I am false but before claiming anything you have to have facts. And if you talk about late history you have to look at archives. Not only turkish and armenian archives to all archives about those days. Dont be afraid if you believe that you are right. Make a pressure on your government and on diaspora to do this (open archive).
Sorry i couldn't translate to English, I think lots of people know Turkish in web site, also lots of Turkish people writing and reading to this web site.
Bizim Ermeniler
Bahçelerde mor meni
Verem ettin sen beni
Ya sen İslam ol Ahçik
Ya ben olam Ermeni
Aşk bu, ferman dinler mi? Aynı pınardan su içerken eli eline değmiştir, gözü gözüne. Ne aşklar yaşanmış şu topraklarda, ne güzel çocuklar doğmuş. Ana tarafından şuralı, baba tarafından buralı. . .
Kırk çeşit kavim gelmiş geçmiş, hepsi ayrı bir güzellik bırakmış Anadolu'ya, bin çeşit birbirine benzemez fidan yeşermiş.
Yüzyıllardır bu toprakların suyunu, havasını paylaşan Ermeniler de çeşnimize çeşni katanlardan. Yemekleriyle, ezgileriyle, takılarıyla, sanatçı ruh ve becerileriyle bir güzel süslemişler dört bir yanımızı. Ülkemizin nakışlarında emekleri, duyguları, düşünceleri, ustalıkları var.
Türkiye'nin ilkleri
İlk Batılı anlamda tiyatro, Ortaköy, Hasköy ve Kuzguncuk Ermeni okullarında başlıyor. Agop Artovyan Türkçe oyunlar sahneleyen ilk tiyatroyu kuruyor. Sahneye çıkan ilk kadın oyuncu bir Ermeni, Aruşyak Papazyan. 1857'de hem öğretmenliğe, hem sahne oyunculuğuna başlamış. Garip rastlantı o da ilk müslüman kadın tiyatro oyuncusu Afife Jale gibi hastanede sefalet içinde ölmüş.
Türkiye'de çoksesli müziğin önderi, opera ve operetin, Şark Musiki Cemiyeti adlı ilk müzik derneğinin kurucusu Dikran Çuhacıyan. İlk Türkçe operayı, ilk Türk opereti "Arif'in Hilesi"ni de Çuhacıyan bestelemiş. Batılı kaynaklar Çuhacıyan'dan Türkiye'nin Verdi'si, Doğu'nun Offenbach'ı diye sözediyorlar.
Kirkor Sinanyan İstanbul'da ilk orkestrayı kurmuş. Yervant Oskan Efendi ilk Osmanlı heykeltraşı. Sanayi-i Nefise Mektebi'nin heykel bölümünün kurucusu. Dünya resim tarihinde ilk kez perspektifi kullandığı söylenen Thoros Roslin Rumkale, Tarsus civarından bir Ermeni.
İstiklal Marşı'nın armonisi
Mekteb'i Bahriye'nin ilk keman öğretmeni, Prof. Vahram Mühendisyan. İlk piyano öğretmeni ise, "İttihat ve Terakki" ve "Prens Sabahaddin" marşlarının bestecisi Harutyun Snanyan'dı.
Prof. Edgar Manas ilk Türk kadınlar korosunun kurucusu. Güftesiz olarak yapılan "İstiklal Marşı" daha sonra E. Manas'ın tashihinden geçerek armonize edildi. Bugün Bolşoy Balesi'nden, Viyana Flarmoni Orkestrası'na, ünlü cazcılara kadar tüm dünyaya "Türk Zilleri" adıyla zil satan, Zilciyan ailesi, Karadeniz kıyılarından gelip Samatya'ya yerleşmiş, Topkapı Surları'nın arkasında ilk zil yapımevini kurmuş. Torunlar, 1908'de ABD'ye göçmüş ve ailenin geliştirdiği özel karışımı hala kullanıyorlar.
İstanbul'da ilk çiçek satış dükkanını açan Bogos Karakaş'ın kızı Mari Luiz, sahneye çıkan ilk kadın opera sanatçısı ve soprano.
Türk dilinin ilk etimolojik (kelime kökenlerini araştıran) sözlüğünü Bedros Keresteciyan yazmış. Bedros Efendi'den (1840-1909) bu yana bu konuda başka yeterli yapıt henüz üretilmemiş.
Karl Marks'ın Manifesto'su daha 1887'de, Ermenice'ye çevrilmiş. İlk İngilizce basımından bir yıl önce! İstanbul'da bir yayıncıya verilmiş. Ancak yayıncı çekinmiş ve çevirmene kitaba kendi adını koymasını önermiş. Çevirmen kabul etmeyince basılmadan elyazması olarak kalmış.
İlk Türkçe mizah dergisi, Hovsep Vartanyan Paşa'dan (1852), "Boşboğaz Bir Adem"; 2. Abdulhamit ve Abdüaziz'in baskılarına karşı siyasal ve toplumsal olayları eleştiren Nişan Berberyan ve Harutyun Hekimyan Türk karikatürünün öncülerinden.
İstanbul'un nakışları
Bir de Balyan ailesi var. Kayserili Balyanlar. 18. ve 19. yüzyıl Osmanlı-Türk mimarlık sanatına damgalarını vurmuşlar. Saray mimarı olarak devlet merkezi İstanbul'u ve çevresini sanki baştan inşa etmişler. Balyanların yapılarında Doğu sanatının Batı Rönesans'ı ile uyumlu bir biçimde kucaklaştığı söylenir. Bu yapıların bir özelliği de dayanıklı olmaları. Hemen tümü h‰l‰ ayakta, İstanbul'un en güzel yapıları.
Dolmabahça Sarayı, Çırağan Sarayı, Baltalimanı, Yıldız Sarayı, Beylerbeyi Sarayı; Kalender Kasrı, Aynalı Kavak, Göksu, Ihlamur Kasrları, Validebağ Kasrı, Çağlayan ve Ayazağa Kasrı; Balmumcu Kışlası, Davutpaşa, Maltepe, Rami, Selimiye, Topçular, Taşkışla, Gümüşsuyu Kışlaları; Valide Camii, Nusretiye Camii, Ortaköy Camii, Üç Horon Kilisesi, çeşitli bendler, Terkos Tesisi, Tophane Saat Kulesi, Gümüşsuyu ve Yedikule Ermeni Hastaneleri, Beykoz Kösele Fabrikası, Akaretler'deki binalar, Darphane, eski Harbiye nezareti, şimdiki üniversite binası, onların yapıtlarından yalnızca bazı örnekler.
İlk Türkçe Latin alfabesini Kuyumcu Mazlumyan Usta, TBMM Müzesi'nde sergilenen altın plaket üzerine kazımış. Atatürk'ün ünlü, "K. Atatürk" imzası da bir Ermeni'nin elinden çıkmış. Robert Kolej'de kırk yıl güzel yazı hocalığı yapan Vahram Çerçiyan'dan da imza örneği istenmiş. Gelen beş örnek arasında Çerçiyan'ınkini seçmiş Atatürk.
Türker soyadının yakışığı
Osmanlı döneminde, bakanlık, müsteşarlık, elçilik, Şuray'ı Devlet üyeliği, milletvekilliği yapmış Ermeniler, otuza yakın önemli bakanlıklarda bulunmuşlar. Haydarpaşa Garı'mızın açılış konuşmasını bile Bakan Bedros Halaçyan yapmış.
Berç Keresteciyan Cumhuriyet döneminin ilk Hıristiyan milletvekili. Osmanlı Bankası Genel Müdürü ve Hilal-i Ahmer (Kızılay) Cemiyeti İkinci Başkanı. Atatürk'e Bandırma vapurunun Boğaz'dan çıktıktan sonra batırılacağı haberini iletmiş, önlem alınmasını sağlamış. Bütün milli mücadele dönemi boyunca yalnız sağılık malzemesi değil, ihtiyaçları olan her şeyi ilaç sandıkları içinde Anadolu'ya göndermiş.
Atatürk, Türker soyadını vermiş kendisine. Anlamlı, Atatürk'ün "Türk"ten ne anladığını görme açısından. Keresticiyan Taksim'deki Cumhuriyet Anıtı'nın komisyonunda da yer almış.
Fransız vapur kumpanyası müdürü Kalçi Efendi, "Sizi haklı buluyorum, mücadelemizin büyüklüğünü biliyorum. Bu toprağı severim. Ailem burada yaşadı ve mutlu oldu. Son vapur da elimden çıkıncaya kadar sizinle çalışacağım" diyerek. M. M. Teşkilatı'na (Mahsus-u Milli Teaşkilatı) destek olmuş. Pandikyan Terziyan ve Hogasyan efendiler de teşkilatta görev alıp, Anadolu'ya yardım etmişler.
Daha sayamadığımız, unuttuğumuz veya bilmediğimiz çok ad var mutlaka. Bir çok "ilk"i getirmişler. Başımıza örttüğümüz yazmadan, operasına kadar. Bir Toto Karaca (Felekyan), Alis Manukyan, Elize Binemeciyan, Nubar Terziyan, Kenan Pars (Kirkor Cezveciyan), Asu Maralman, Hayko, Garbis Zaharyan (milli boksör), Anta Toros, Aram Gülyüz, Agop Arat, Vahram Yavru (Balkan Tenis Şampiyonu). Bir Onno Tunç, Garo Mafyan, Ara Güler, Pars Tuğlacı olmasaydı, Türkiye'de çok şey eksik olurdu.
Paskalya çörekleri, Ramazan pideleri!
Ani İpekkaya, 25 yıldır tiyatro sahnelerinde. Babası Ermeni, annesinin bir tarafı Arnavut Rum, bir tarafı Rus. Ani bir Türk'le evlenmiş. Asaf Çiğiltepe nikah şahitleri. Bir yıl sonra açıklamış ailesine. Sadece nikah cüzdanını görmek istemişler Ani İpekkaya'nın. Ne de olsa kız çocuğu.
Ani İpekkaya'nın kızı nereli? Bilmece gibi. Çocukluğu Bakırköy'de geçmiş. Kocaman ıhlamur ağaçlarının olduğu bir mahalle. Mahallede Karamanlı Rumlar, Ermeniler, Türkler otururmuş. Yılbaşını, noeli, bayramları konu komşu hep birlikte kutlarlarmış. Paskalya'da paskalya çörekleri, Ramazan'da pastırmalı pideler. Evlerinde namazlı niyazlı iftar açılırmış. Mahallenin tüm çocukları, Türk'ü Rum'u, Ermeni'si bağırırmış kandiller yanınca.
"Balıklı Rum mezarlığına giderdik yortularda, piknik yapmak için. Dolmaları sarar, bütün mahalleli hazırlanırdı. Herkes ölülerine dualar okurdu. O birlikteliğin duygusallığını h‰l‰ yaşıyorum. Ailem Van'dan gelmiş. Dedem Çanakkale'de İngilizlere karşı savaşmış. Annem burada mutlu oldu, mezarı burada. Bayramda kapıma gelen çocuklara mendil vermek istiyorum. Hiç ayrı gayrı bilmeden büyüdüm. Bu topraklarda Ermeniler ile Türkler birbirlerini çok sevdiler, aşık oldular, kız aldılar, oğlan verdiler. Kayıpederim Elazığ'ın Palu ilçesindendi. Sulu bulgur köftesine glorik derdi. Ermenice 'yuvarlacık' demek.
"Şimdi bir olay oldu mu, sanki etime değiyor."
Yılların sinema sanatçısı Kenan Pars, yani Kirkor Cezveciyan'ın annesi Beşiktaşlı, babası Balatlı, beş yüz yıllık İstanbullu Ermeni. Dedesi Ohannes'in elinden çıkmış, Yıldız Sarayı'nın avizeleri. Kenan Pars'ın kızı "Müslümanla" evlenmiş, torunu da "Müslüman."
"Müslüman diyorum, çünkü hepimiz Türkiyeliyiz. Bin arkadaşımdan dokuz yüz doksan dokuzu Müslümandır. Aynı fasulyeyi, dolmayı yemişiz yıllardır" diyor Kenan Pars. Kendini çok duygulandıran Balıkesir'deki askerlik anısını anlatıyor. "Ali Bey diye bir komutanın emir eriydim. Karısı bir gün 'paskalyada Ermeni aileler ne pişirir, yerler' diye sordu. Zenginlerimizin sofrasında uskumru dolması, midye dolması, paskalya çöreği, kırmızı yumurta olur dedim. Paskalya geldiğinde 'Oğlum gel beraber aile yemeği yiyelim' diye beni çağırdı. Masada, hem de Balıkesir'de uskumru dolması, midye, kırmızı yumurta ve paskalya çöreği vardı. Ben sevincimi, acımı paylaştım bu insanlarla. Biz dostuz, kaynaşmışız. Bu düşmanlık nereden çıktı bu kadar yıl sonra?"
Bizim "memeket" nasıl?
İstanbul'da Marmara adında bir Ermenice gazete yayımlanıyor. Gazetenin sorumlu müdürü Rober Haddeler Akşehirli bir aileden geliyor. "Ben bir Anadolu çocuğuyum" diyor. "Türk Ermenileri vatanlarına bağlılar. Birinci Dünya Savaşı'ndan sonra, aileden geri kalanlar annem, babam ve amcamın bir kaç kızı Suriye'ye göç etmişler. Ancak sonra tekrar Türkiye'ye dönüp İstanbul'a yeleşmişler. Şimdi Anadolu'da kalan Ermenilerin sayısı 5 bini bulmaz. Anadolu'da yaşayanların Ermenilerle pek ilişkileri yok. 'Duvardaki Kan' gibi dizileri seyredenler ne düşünecekler? Sanki bütün Ermenilerle, bütün Türklerin arasında düşmanlık varmış duygusuna kapılacaklar."
Ani İpekkaya'nın Elazığ'ın Palu ilçesiden kayunpederinin sevdiği "Glorik" köftesi, Erzurum'un bar'ı (dans), rakı sofralarının çarmakçuru (aslan sütü), Eğin'in güzelim ezgilerideki klarnet, kargir (taş ve kireç), bızdık, kodaman, torba, haç, örnek. Kaynaşmış gitmişiz işte!
Son 10-15 yıl içinde birkaç bin Ermeni vatandaş İstanbul'a göç etmiş. …nemli bir bölümü Birinci Dünya Savaşı'ndan sonra dışarıya göç etmek zorunda kalmış. Çocukları buralarda doğup büyümüşler. Analarından, babalarından onların yaşamış olduğu toprakların güzelliğini dile getiren öyküler dinliyorlar. "Oranın suyu başkaydı, havası başkaydı: Ah sen bir de bizim oradaki dağları göreceksin." Rober Haddeler'e göre bu, çocuklarda sıla özlemine, belki de biraz tepkiye yol açıyor.
Haddeler, son elli yıllık devrede Batı Ermeni edebiyatından söz ediyor. Ana temalarından biri Türk Ermenilerinin vatan olarak bildikleri topraklara özlem duyguları.
Gurbet elde de birbirimizi buluruz
Dışarıya göç edip yerleşenlerin hiç biri Batılı olamamış. Doğu'nun geleneklerini h‰l‰ südürüyorlar. Konukseverlikleri, sıcak aile ilişkileri, sosyal yaşantıdaki bağlılıkları. "Giderken götüreceğin en iyi hediye, kolunun altına sıkıştıracağın bir rakı şişesidir. Oraların konyağını, viskisini bir türlü benimseyemezler" diyor Haddeler. On beş yıl önce gazetede çalışan bir arkadaşları Amerika'ya gitmiş ve Amerikalıyla evlenmiş.. "Çok sevdiğim, en iyi arkadaşım" diye mektupta söz ettiği kişi çıkmış gelmiş. Bir Türk! "Orada da birbirlerini buluyorlar" diyor Haddeler.
"İnsanlar arasındaki bazı tepkiler çok çabuk dostluk duygusuna çevrilebilir. En ufak bir jestle tersine dönüşebilir. İki kişi karşı karşıya gelince her şey unutulur. Burada Ermenice gazete çıkarıyorum. On kişi çalışıyor, dördü Türk.
"Bu ASALA'nın filan yöneticileri, başındakiler, Ermeni değil mutlaka. Kanıtlayabilmiş değiliz, ama böyle. Onlar bazı şeyleri kullanıyorlar."
Keşke devlet adamları da sanatçı olsa
Değil Türkiye'de, düyada sayılı 40 yıl süren müzik toplulukları. Dedeleri Kevork Aslanyan 50 yıl İstanbul Patrikliği yapmış. Üç kardeş abileri Vahakn'ın ölümüne kadar kırk yıl oda müziği yapmışlar. Vahakn, Devlet Senfoni Orkestrası ikinci keman grupları şefiymiş ölene kadar.
Varujyan, 51 yıldır piyano çalıyor. İstanbul Şehir Operası'nın kuruluşunda görev almış. Şimdi emekli, Kurtuluş'ta mütevazı bir evde piyano dersleri veriyor. Evin yarısını dededen kalma antika bir büfe, diğer yarısını piyano kaplıyor. Duvarda, yine dededen kalma madalyalar.
"Geçenlerde Patrik'in Atatürk Kültür Merkezi'nde jübilesi vardı. Devlet Opera ve Balesi'nde sahne amiri olan Asım Bey'le karşılaştım. 23 yıldır birbirimizi görmemiştik. Dakikalarca sarıldık. Yanan Tepebaşı Tiyatrosu'nda geceleri saat birlere kadar beraber çalışırdık."
"Ermiş millet"
"Müzik, güzel sanatlar, insanları öylesine kaşnaştırır ki! Keşke devlet adamları da sanatçı olsalar" diyor Aslanyan. Karısı Alis, "Müziğe meleklerin dili derler" diye ekliyor. Madam Alis, Üsküdar Amerikan Kız Koleji'nde okurken okul doktoru Muhittin Bey'miş. "Kızım biz size neden Ermeni diyoruz biliyor musun? Ermişten gelir. Ermeni milleti ermiştir de ondan" der, sevgiyle takılırmış.
Varujyan Aslanyan'ın gücüne giden bir şey var. "Niye haberlerde 'Ermeni katil veya katil Ermeni' diyorlar? Katil bilmem kim deseler ya, her cinayeti işleyen gibi."
…yle ya o adamın özelliği insan öldürmesi. Ermeni olması değil! "Niye hepimize mal ediyorlar?" diyor Aslanyan, ince sanatçı duyarlılığıyla.
"Niye kötü haberler kocaman verilir de, iyilerden söz edilmez?" Abraham Bodurgil, Beyaz Saray Türk Kütüphanesi Müdürü. 2000 kitaplık Atatürk bibliyografyasını hazırlamış. Aslanyan, TV'de haber verilirken Bodurgil'in adının anılmadan geçilmesini anlayamıyor haklı olarak.
Madam Pamuk, h‰l‰ yıllar öncesindeki gibi alımlı. "Bu toprağın insanlarıyız. Havasından, suyundan vazgeçemem. Başka yerlerde yaşayamam, ama bir Türkle çok rahat paylaşırım her şeyimi. Acılarım oldu, en yakın ilgiyi Türk arkadaşlarımdan gördüm. Sıcak bir millet. Çıkın Nordik'lere, soğuk ırk. Bizim gibi olamazlar.
"Bir şey olacak diye yüreğim hop hop atıyor. Nasıl başladı, nasıl biçimlendi aklım almıyor. Bazen aile içinde kavga olur, iki kapı komşu kavga eder. Biri der ki, 'ben haklıyım', öbürü der ki 'ben'. Ama ortada bir gerçek vardır. İkisi de kabul etse. Niye çocuklarımız böyle şeyler duyarak büyüsünler? Sarayları, tiyatroları, Türkçe grameri bile birlikte yapmışız. Niye bunlar yeteri kadar hatırlanmaz? Agop Martayan'a, Atatürk, Dilaçar soyadını vemişti. …ldüğü zaman gazetelerin çoğunda ufak bir haber oldu."
A nokta Dilaçar!
Agop Martayan, Atatürk'ün verdiği soyadıyla Dilaçar, sonraları basında geçen adıyla sadece A. Dilaçar. Devekuşu misali. A nokta Dilaçar! Gedikpaşa'dan Boyacıköy'e taşınınca, en yakın okul Robert Kolej'de okumuş. Birinci Dünya Savaşı'nda Kafkas Cephesi'ne gönderilmiş. özellikle Ermeniler ve Kürtler Rus Cephesi'ne gönderiliyorlar. Martayan da Şam'a gidiyor. Atatürk'le ilk orada karşılaşıyor. Kafkasya'dan gelen bir Ermeni subay ve kaçmamış. Atatürk'ün dikkatini çekiyor, orada kaçmayan adam burada hiç kaçmaz diye, bir hafta izin veriyor. Savaştan sonra İstanbul. Her bunalımlı dönemde, önemli olayların ardından azınlıklar arasında göçler oluyor. Sofya'ya göç ediyor Martayan ailesi. Türk dili ve kültürü üzerine çalışmalarını orada da sürdürüyor. Orhun Yazıtları'yla ilgili bir yazısı Cumhuriyet gazetesinde yayımlanıyor. Atatürk, Türk Dil Kurultayı'nın toplantısına onun da çağırılmasnı istiyor. Göç edenler vatandaşlıktan çıkarılıyor, gittiği yerin vatandaşı da olamıyor. Elinde bir Nasen belgesi var Martayan'ın. Atatürk'e durum anlatılıyor. "Davetlidir gelsin!"
Sofya Konsolosu tatil demiyor, pazar günü Vitoşa Dağı'na çıkıp Martayan'a haber veriyor. Pazartesi konsoloslukta, pasaportu olmadığı için Nasen belgesinin üstüne vize damgası atılarak sorun çözülüyor. Ama konsolosun aklına pek yatmadığı için eline ayrıca "gerekli kolaylık gösterilsin, Atatürk'ün özel davetlisidir" diye bir mektup veriliyor.
25 Eylül 1932'de 1. Türk Dil Kurultayı'na katılıyor. Türk diline önemli katkıları olan İstepan Gurdikyan, Kevork Şimkeşyan da özel çağrılı. Dilaçar'dan Türiye'de kalması isteniyor. TDK'nun başuzmanlığına atanıyor. 1979'da ölene kadar da orada görev yapıyor. Liselerde, fakültelerde öğretmenlik yapıyor. İnönü Ansiklopedisi'nin kurucularından ve redaktörü.
Oğlu Vahe Dilaçar'la konuşuyoruz. Türkçesi tertemiz. Belki Ermenilerin dil öğrenme yeteneğinden, belki de babadan miras.
"Bütün yaşantımız, Atatürk'ün yaşantısı ile ilgiliydi" diyor oğul Dilaçar. "İstanbul'a gideceği zaman biz de taşınırdık. Eski cephane sandıklarının içine kitaplar konur, özel trenle giderdik. Akşam 6-7 gibi köşkün arabası gelir, yaver babamı alır gider, ertesi sabah getirirdi. İlk başta annem ürkerdi. Niye alıp alıp götürüyorlar diye. Yaver, 'Korkmayınız, aldığımız gibi getiririz' diye şakalaşırdı."
Antranik Paşa'ya Atatürk'ten saygı
Atatürk'ün sofrasında sürekli, arkadaşları, bilim adamları ve tartışmak istediği konuyla ilgili uzmanlar oluyor. Bir kez bir kelimenin kökenini tartışmak üzere Rumca bilen birinin çağrılmasını ister Atatürk. Rum Zografyan Lisesi'nden bir öğretmen davet ediliyor. Hitler'den kaçan Musevi bilim adamları da sık sık sofranın konukları. O akşam tartışma bittikten sonra herkes sırayla bir şeyler yapıyor. Alman profesör Almanca bir halk şarkısı söylüyor. Rum öğretmenden Rumca bir şiir okuması isteniyor. Yunan edebiyatından, klasiklerden bir şiirdir beklenen.
- "Ben Türk'üm, yaşasın Türkiye"
Atatürk'ün kaşları çatılıyor. Oysa Rum olduğu için sofraya çağırılmış.
Agop Dilaçar bir Ermeni marşı söylüyor. Kafkas cepphesinde, Osmanlılara karşı savaşan Antranik Paşa'nın adının da geçtiği bir marş. Sofrada bir gerginlik, fısıldamalar. Atatürk uyarıyor. "Bu marşla insanlar inananarak ölüme yürüdü. Saygıyla dinleyiniz."
O kadarından vazgeçtik, yıllar sonra, Türk Dil Kurumu bilimsel kıstaslarla değil, sadece Ermeni olduğu için bir Pars Tuğlacı'nın üyeliğe kabülünü reddediyor. "Başımızda bir tane var zaten o yetiyor" deniyor. Agop Dilaçar'a ölene kadar pasaport vermemişiz.
"Olaylar olduğunda arkadaşlarımız, dostlarımız bir şey söylemiyor. Ama ne düşünüyor acaba diye tedirgin oluyorum" diyor Vahe Dilaçar. "Dışarıdaki Ermeniler de çeşit çeşit. Ama, ASALA'nın amacı başka. Buradan kalkıp kim gider oralara, dışarıdan da kimsenin gelip yerleşeceğini sanmıyorum. Savaş durumu, iki taraf da birbirine aynı şeyi yapmıştır. Tarihte olanları unutup yeni bir dünyada yer almak gerekir. '…zür dilerim, hatalı davranmışım' tavrı çok şeyi çözebilir, olanları haksız kılar. Zor ama niye olmasın!"
Niye olmasın?
Kapıları çalarken içimizede bir tedirginlik. Ermeni lafını yuvarlayarak, konumuzu açıklamaya çalışıyoruz. Hani, acaba alınırlar mı? Kırar mıyız diye. Ama gerçekten biz bize benziyoruz. "Bizim Ermeniler" dost, sıcak insanlar, çok şey paylaşıyoruz. Dile kolay, yüzyıllarca emek vermiş, taş üstüne taş koymuşuz, mendil kenarına oya işler gibi birlikte göz nuru dökmüşüz bu "memlekete."
Atatürk'le dans eden Ermeni
- Nasılsın kızım?
Genç kız alımlı, dimdik elini sıkar Atatürk'ün, yanıt verir:
- Teşekkür ederim efendim, siz nasılsınız?
Celel Bayar telaşla uyarır,
- Eğil, eğil elini öp. Hiç siz nasılsınız denir mi?
- Rahat bırakın kızı. Şimdiki gençlik böyle. Ben de öylesini seviyorum.
Ajda Pamuk, o zaman Martayan, Park Otel'de dansa ilk kez gelmiştir. Onun genç kızlığa ilk adımıdır.
Biraz önce ortalık karışmış, garsonlar koşuşmuş, tam karşılarında otuz-kırk kişilik masa hazırlanmıştır. Atatürk masanın başına oturur, göz göze gelirler. Biraz sonra yanındakilerden biri gelir, Antuvan Martayan'dan izin ister.Madam Pamuk gözleri ışıl ışıl anlatıyor: "Biliyordum zaten, bekliyordum çağıracak diye, uçarak gittim." Hayrandır hem fiziğine, hem gücüne. Okulda hep arkadaşlarıyla konuşurlar.
Dansa kaldırır Atatürk, vals yaparlar. Sofrada iki saat boyunca Avrupa gençliğini, izlenimlerini konuşurlar. Türkçesin kutlar. Ayrılırken bir dileği olup olmadığını sorar. "Sağlığınız efendim dedim. Nereden bilirdim, bir süre sonra onu kaybedeceğimizi. Keşke bir anı isteseydim. Ama bu anı değil mi, yıllar sonra kapım onun için çalınıyor."
Birbirinize sarılır, siz kardeşsiniz
1915 yılında ıstepanyan ailesi de diğerleriyle birlikte Adapazarı'ndan Simav'a sürgün gelirler . Eski, kullanılmayan bir yana yerleştirilirler. Altı ay geçer, yerli halkla hiçbir ilişki yoktur.
Bir gün küçük Torkom yalnız başına oynarken, çocuklar gelir. Ama o onlarla oynamak istemez. annesi hemen hanın kapısını açar, çocuklara içerideki manzarayı gösterir. Yanlarında getirebildikleri yok denecek kadar az eşyaların üstünde, açlıklarını uykuyla bastırmaya çalışan insanlar. "Büyüdüğünüz zaman çocuklarınızın böyle şeyler görmesini istemiyorsanız, birbirinize sımsıkı sarılın. Siz kardeşsiniz."
Garnizon komutanı Marizaruhi Istepanyan'ın bu sözlerini duyar. Simavlılar sürgün Ermeni ailelerini paylaşıp, evlerinde misafir etmeye başlarlar.
İstepanyanlar, bu kez hüzünlü ayrıldıkları Simav'dan tekrar Adapazarı'na döndüklerinde kıymetli eşyalarını Türk komşularından bıraktıkları gibi alırlar. Anadolu'nun çok yerinde olmuş böyle dayanışma. Benzer bir anıyı da Avedis Mazmanyan'dan dinlemiştik. Eğin'in Apcağa köyünden sürgün giderken altınlarını Cemal Beylere bırakırlar. 18 yıl sonra geri döndüklerinde bohçaları hiç açılmadan, Rahime Hanım'ın sandığından çıkar. Bir gün Atatürk Adapazarı'na gelir. Simav komutanı Musta Bey karşılayanlar arasında Marizaruhi'yi görür, atatürk'ün hizmetini yapmayı kabul edip etmeyeceğini sorar. Uzun yıllar Atatürk'e hizmet eder Marizaruhi.
Saroyan çalmış, Yaşar Kemal söylemiş
"Bir sabah saat dokuz muydu neydi, kapı çaldı. Bir baktım 'Ben William Saroyan' diye girdi içeri. 'Hoş geldin sefalar getirdin' İstanbul'u gezdik beraber. Türküler biliyordu çok güzel. Sözlerini değil havalarını. Ben söyledim, o çaldı."
Yaşar Kemal bunları anlatırken aklımıza üç-dört asır öncesinin halk ozanları geliyor. Ermeni alfabesiyle yazılmış, Türkçe elyazması halk şiirleri, hatta bir kıtası, mısrası ya da beyiti Ermenice şiirler, destanlar.
Asırlar geleneği bozmamış, Florya, Menekşe sırtlarında gecekondu mahallelerinde, Çamlıca tepelerinde, İstanbul'un sırtlarında, Yaşar Kemal sözlerini söylemiş türkülerin, Saroyan havalarını. Beyti Lokantası'na gitmişler. Saroyan kalkmak bilmemiş. Sonradan Beyti'yle ilgili bir yazı yazmış. Beyti h‰l‰ reklamlarında, kibrit kutularının arkasında kullanırmış Saroyan'ın sözlerini.
Saroyan'ın Bitlis'i göresi gelmiş. Çok küçükmüş göçtüklerinde, ama olsun. Fikret Otyam'la doğduğu yerleri görmeye gitmiş. …yle olurmuş. Bir Ermeni vatandaşımızın vasiyeti varmış. …ldükten sonra mezarıma bir avuç doğduğum yerlerin toprağını serpin diye. Oysa göç edeli kırk yıl olmuş. Olsun. Oğlu ta Amerikalardan gelmiş, bir avuç toprak için.
Avrupa'nın, Amerika'nın bazı kentlerinde Türkçe konuşmaya çekinirmiş insanlar. Sadi Koçaş'ın konsoloslukta çalışan bir arkadaşı söylemiş "Duydular mı hemen evlerine çağırıyorlar, bizden ayrılmak istemiyorlar. Onların konukseverliklerini istismar etmemek için, sokakta kendi aramızda bile Türkçe konuşmuyorduk."
Şule Perinçek
Yazı, 2000'e Doğru dergisinin 12-18 Nisan 1987 tarihli sayısında yayımlandı
Having 22 years of Turkish people experience, I humbly suggest commentors here to not take people who are attacking and/or insulting Armenian nation seriously. Some Turks can make the veins in your temples swell and throb within 5 minutes into a conversation with them; it's experience speaking. Though, don't blame them for being domineering and ignorant. Blame them for believing anything they hear so easily, not seeking for truth, being unable to question because the stories you grow up with, hearing from your elders are everything opposite to what we had been taught in schools here. Unfortunately this nation has been raising brainwashed kids since forever. You can't change these people by just throwing facts at their face. You need to let them understand what your ancestors have been through because they have absolutely no clue about that. Hence, keep it cool. Otherwise will only make you neurotic.
On an irrelevant note, I find comments saying "Turks are barbarians. They are brutal and inhuman" and implying that we all are terrorists extremely unfair and hurtful. The whole nation might be* guilty for the tragedies* happened starting from 1915 but every individual in Turkey is not a coldblooded murderer. I could as well be a stereotype and say every Armenian individual is as cruel and out of control as an ASALA member. But it takes something less than human to murder someone and requires a person to be subhuman to torture a being to death. Just like the people who murdered Daniel Varujan. I know plenty people here who are finding it more and more difficult each day carrying a heavy conscience for being held in the same category with those subhumans and with the ones who are shamelessly and blindly defending them and yet unable to do anything that'll lead to a resolution. Please try to understand that it's lovely but kinda hard, living here with having views that are against majority's.
*Article 301 censoring sugarcoating. I had to, sorry.
It is obviously clear who is actually close-minded and brainwashed from your insultive and offensive attitude. I do not even care in which parliament they decided on what. Historical issues should be discussed and studied in academy, not in parliaments. Although, I do not actually support the actions of our current government, I think they have practiced right policies on that issue so far. They lastly proposed to form a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue altogether. In addition to that, they announced that we are ready to open all our archieve to that commission and asked you to open all your archieve also. Why do you insistently avoid to join in such a commission? Do not you trust enough to your so-called well-documented and fairly referenced documents? You have got to realized that your collocutor is Turkey. If you have problem with us, you should directly come and talk to us. Passing some legislative actions in some other countries' parliaments is not the solution. Why do you need such protective actions of your big brothers like the US, France, the UK? Why do you turn the issue which is actually quite deep and serious into lobbying wars? For a final word, I am taking back my apology until you realize and apologize for what your forefathers did to my grand grandfather.
If Arab scolars find difficulty in analyzing 'The Quran Almubeen'
I wonder how the Turks can analyze 'The Quran',
Because their writing changed from Arabic letters to Latin.
Persian letters are Arabic, so they know more and can analyze better.
Can any Turk give me an answer, why they changed from Arabic to Latin letters!Do they think they belong to Europe more than Islamic lands?
In "The Quran Almubeen” never mentioned you should kill the Armenians
Or force them to change their religion.
Written, “You have a religion- I have a religion” i.e, to say respect my religion I will respect yours---[“ Laka deenoon wa li deen”]
I 've never heard any Arab has forced an Armenian to change thy religion.
I think forcing others to change their ethnicity, religion, language ( Turkification) are related to Turkish culture and nothing to do with Islamic religion.
You might think Turkey would want all of this negative publicity to go away, and that to reach that goal, a simple apology to the descendants of their former citizens would be a great step. Armenians are the original children of Anatolia, and as such they deserve at least that much from those who came from thousands of miles away and established their kingdoms on Armenian land. Whether or not it was 2 million who got killed or 300K, the result was horrific and an entire native population was decimated by official order. You can call it whatever you want, but an apology - a sincere apology - is in order. The fiction that Armenians were engaged in war against the Ottoman Empire is just that...a fictional story that is part of the defensive propaganda campaign of those who are defending the CUP murderers. And Erdogan wonders why diaspora Armenians are impatient with him? a man who is quick to label almost anything a 'genocide', except what happened to the Armenians.
Karekin -- A correction. You wrote: "Armenians are the original children of Anatolia." There was no such a toponym as Anatolia throughout the history, it's a newest Turkish creation ('Antalya') to erase the historically correct toponym of 'Western Armenia'. A correct geographical toponym for the area inhabitted by the Armenians and other ancinet nations in historical terms is known as "Asia Minor," "the Armenian Plateau," "the Armenian Highlands," or simply "Western Armenia."
Exactly Karekin!!
This guy Erdogun is so quick to label the Chinese and the Israelites that they're commiting a genocide, yet he dismisses the real facts that his anscestors (the CUP) committed the first Genocide of the twentieth century with the annihilation of Armenians. He further goes on denying and lying to the world that the poor annihilated Armenian martyrs have killed them. He is so deranged and warped it's not funny. The Turks in 1915 were 4 million and today in 2010 they are 74 million. Yet Armenians living in Turkey were 3 million altogether. In Talaat's "Black Book", Armenians after 1918 that remained in Turkey were 250,000. In Eastern Armenia after 1918 along with the survivors from the Armenian Genocide were not more than 800,000 when they all fought until their last breath against Turkey and won the war in May 28, 1918, and that's how they managed for us to have our Armenian Republic that exists today. How is it then the 3 million Armenians in Turkey in 1915 and about 500,000 Armenians in Eastern part of Armenia, yet today Armenians are a mere 8-10 million all around the world? In 1915 the 3.5 million Armenian population must have been today at least 44 million and not 8-10 million if they were left alone and the CUP's didn't commit a Genocide against Armenians in 1915. Yet the Turks in 1915 were 4 Million altogether and today they are 74 million. Here's the proof Mr. Erdogun that your Turkish government in 1915 committed a heinous crime against humanity with the Armenian Genocide that they have committed towards their civilian Turkish subjects (the Armenians).
Yes, Sylva, the reason for changing the letters to Latin could be to stay closer to European Culture which has been a real pain for the most, since people may have a hard time in terms of social life in a culture decorated with Islamic, Turkic and Western elements.
Though, it makes life easier. Having the same scales, weekend days, and working hours, letters etc. with almost the rest of the world. :)
Armenian and Proud person, for you, there is not much to say. You're so full of hatred. I infer it as you would commit the same massacre if you had the chance, I know I would not. Keep in mind that I am not saying a single thing about what has happened. But regarding the political reasons, I have to point out that British, French, German, Greek, Italian, Russian, and the U.S you refer to as historical source countries, had and still have affairs in the region. So no comment is and will be unbiased on this matter.
But I suggest you reconsider your mindset. Regarding your words, directly insulting a group of people would go beyond imposing your ideas. Your outrage goes beyond the issue.
Unfortunately, all states have blood on their hands. Starting from the very defenders of this cause. You know who I am referring to. American, British, French.....and nevertheless, Japanese, Russian, Turkish, Somalian, Nigerian states killed, and they still do.
People should not!
I hope you come to your senses. You may defend your cause, totally fine. Some people may defend the otherwise. But with reason, if not, you will go unnoticed, cause the world is full of dimwitted already.
My grandfather Avedis, who barely escaped the Armenian Genocide (his mother, father, younger brother, and younger sister - all killed) had a saying, "Never make an enemy if you don't have to." I like to think that his words are especially important for Armenians today.
For the last 20 years or so, the Armenian Cause has been steadily gaining ground. Who would have thought 25 years ago, that major powers of the world would again be grappling with the Armenian Question? That there is an independent Armenian state along with a relatively strong, prosperous, and politically active Armenian diaspora, both working (well some would debate this) to further the Armenian Cause is, given that we were nearly exterminated some 90 to 95 years ago, is I think, nothing short of amazing and something for which we can be very thankful.
So now we Armenians are back in the game so to speak, and the question for us now is, what do we do now to take the Armenian Cause to the next level? For example, are we really serious about reclaiming historical Armenian lands, or do we merely want to just blow off steam, to scream and yell and accomplish close to nothing? We need to be smart.
To catergorize all Turks as devils and all Armenians as angels is not only naive, but dangerous. For that matter it has been demonstrated from a scientific point of view, that indeed Turks and Armenians are related (both peoples share the genetic disease Mediteranean fever). Of course this makes sense because the central asian Turks invaded, took our women, forced conversion and their language on us, ... etc. Go anywhere in Turkey today and you will be hard pressed to see the asiatic eyes of central asian Mongol-Turkic peoples. Rather, you will see people that look like Greeks and Armenians, likely the descendents of these and other native Anatolian peoples that long ago converted to Islam and essentially became Turks.
This is not to say that we should just trust Turks. On the contrary, they have demonstrated for the last 1000 or so years, that they should not be trusted. Nevertheless there are some, i.e. the Turkish PhD candidate that Janine mentioned, and most certainly Taner Akcam, that clearly demonstrate individual merit and courage, amidst the larger Turkish interest which yes, is our enemy. It's such individual Turks of merit and courage, that I personally as an Armenian, would gladly shake hands with and be honored to call a friend.
To SG: I appreciate your comment and I think most of your views are correct. A couple of corrections for you to consider, though, regarding the second part. You write: “The whole nation might be* guilty for the tragedies* happened starting from 1915.” In this you seem to echo the same genocide denialist line as the rest of the Turks. Those were not tragedies. The world has already properly characterized the events as genocide, starting with Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin, who in the 1940s unambiguously labeled Turkish atrocities as genocide, i.e. deliberate, intentional, government-executed mass extermination of a specific ethnic, racial, and religious minority. In the case of the Armenians, the pain is two-fold, because not only have all of them been exterminated and deported, but, as a result, we lost our ancestral lands which we inhabited for millennia. Imagine the pain… As for some commentators using the word “barbarian,” it is, no doubt, incorrect to generalize, but this is what historically settled in the memories of the European nations: “a barbaric Turk,” based on atrocities that Turks have committed during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire onto the European mainland. Unfortunately, stereotypes are hard to overcome. As for ASALA, any manifestation of terrorism is unacceptable, but you forget (and I hope not deliberately) that ASALA’s cruelty was a RESPONSE to Turkish atrocities and not just a terrorist act committed out of the blue. Makes any difference for you? Hope it does…
Sorry Istanbul, but Armenian people don't know Turkish, in fact, it makes many of us sick when we hear Turkish. Could you give us a brief summary of your comment in any European language, please? English, French, perhaps? Thanks.
Mr. Mensoian,
This article had its highlights, its flaws, and its careless omissions. Mainly, you did not mention the main reason why Azerbaijan will not win the next war: it is incapable of carrying out an offensive and won't be able to unless the demographic imbalance shifts from 1:3 to 1:6 -- which is not happening anytime soon (if ever).
to gina
you talk about dalyan family or whatever else family who made buildings in ottoman land...i think you suppose that ottomans or we the turks cannot make buildings...
check your historical maps and see where we conquered for our ideas...an armenian cannot imagine even that lands...you may be take some lands when we are fighting against the other big nations...you or small nations like you will always live with dreams that enforced by the others...
if we would want , we could have made better buildings ..but is not the point...the point is we are really greater than you dude...
BoyUn –
First of all, ‘Armenia’, ‘Armenians’, ‘French’, ‘Soviet’, ‘American’ are proper nouns and next time you write something somewhere do please capitalize them. I can understand that they teach you historical rubbish, disinformation, and historical facts’ distortion at schools, but don’t they teach you correct grammar at all? Or the grammar, too, is distorted in a typically Turkish way?
1)What exactly do YOU mean by “Armenian and other Armenian lover(?!) governments who erased and falsified archives”? Is this your superficial prejudgmental fantasy that if Turks could erase or falsify historical documents then it automatically implies that other nations, too, could do the same? Ugh… What a simplistic mentality. Without going further into detail, ask yourself a simple question: ‘Can multiple Western archives and international repositories all be false and only Turkish archives be truthful?’ Read this, if you will, at http://www.gomidas.org/forum/archives.pdf. This paper is an account of an ongoing controversy regarding the place of Ottoman archives in discussions of the Armenian Genocide. The paper argues that an “Ottoman archives debate” has been created by the Turkish state and its agents as part of an ongoing campaign in the denial of the Genocide. Drawing on the author’s personal experiences in Ottoman archives, the paper argues that Ottoman archives are not open to intellectually honest scrutiny, and that they nonetheless tend to corroborate Western records on the Armenian Genocide.
Armenian and Western archives are open, in fact, several years ago there was a Turkish researcher (I forgot his name but I’ll dig it for you from the Internet so you don’t accuse me of falsifying things), who came to Armenia and worked in the Armenian archives freely. We have nothing to hide, it wasn’t Armenians who committed genocide, mass murder and deportation, as well as deprivation of indigenious people of their historical homeland. The world knows WHO did this.
You write: ‘May be I am false but before claiming anything you have to have facts. And if you talk about late history you have to look at archives.’ Well, then go ahead and research your own archives pertaining to the period followed after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918. Turkey’s newly-organized government, headed by Ahmed Izzet Pasha, decided to try the leaders of the Young Turks and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress (CUP) for involving the Ottoman Empire in World War I and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The documents (encoded telegraphs and letters) attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. The documents collected during the Court hearings and attached to the verdicts proved that the Armenian deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was perpetrated exceptionally on the initiative of the CUP Central with instructions and secret orders received from the centre. Go ahead, forget about Armenian and Armenian-‘loving’ nations and their archives. Look into your own archives in your own country regarding your own history. Don’t be afraid. And then make comments in this forum. I do hope you’ll make a pressure on your own government to recognize the truth that exists in its own archives. Isn’t your governmet a representative of progressive humanity, according to you? Don’t’ be afraid.
2) By ‘progressive humanity’ I meant PROGRESSIVE not REgressive humanity, who committed and continues to commit atrocities in many places around the globe. I condemn any atrocity against fellow human beings, but instead of making attempts to divert the readers’ attention from other international instances of such atrocities, try to ask yourself: “Given this continuing international commotion that goes on for 95 years about the Armenian Genocide, maybe my nation, too, has done something very wrong?” Instead of concentrating your attention on others, try to answer the question, if you believe it was Armenians who committed atrocities in Khojaly (which no evidence supports, by the way): Why would that happen? What are the causes? May be the causes lie in Azerbaijani barbarism that was directed at Armenians BEFORE Khojaly in Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait and Baku, where Armenians were torched alive and killed with a typical Azero-Turkish brutality?
Lastly, for your information, it’s yet another Turko-Azeri forgery about Zari Balayan’s book, allegedly called “Revival of our Souls” and allegedly published in 1996. Here’s an extract from the statement made by the European Parliamentary Assembly for your information: “Mr Balayan is a prominent and distinguished Armenian writer and publicist reputed internationally for his humanism. Mr. Balayan has never written the book alleged or any other book the content of which or the quotations from which are presented in. It therefore represents an act of slander, which should entail legal consequences. This act of slander is particularly aggravated by the accusations of murders allegedly committed by Mr Balayan.” -- Representatives of the Parliamentary Assembly.
Look into yourselves BEFORE looking into other nations.
Human, and Proud, you write:
I do not even care in which parliament they decided on what. Historical issues should be discussed and studied in academy, not in parliaments
Well, let us test the truth of your statement then. The vast majority, overwhelmingly, of worldwide genocide scholarship agrees that the murder of 1.5 million Armenians beginning in 1915 by the Turkish government was GENOCIDE and fits all the formal, legal definitions of that word. The International Association of Genocide Scholars has repeatedly encouraged every government, including a specific letter in 2009 written to President Obama, to declare the systematic destruction of the Armenian people in Turkey beginning in 1915 GENOCIDE. So, do you accept the truth of scholarship as you claim? This commission is a blind, a bluff. All the scholarship overwhelmingly agrees. Except the handful in Turkey officially gagged by their government, and maybe one professor in the US who has been consistently exposed as a paid shill.
Human, and Proud
Here is the letter you can read from the INTERNATIONAL Association of Genocide Scholars. That means the whole body of genocide academics in the entire world. Let us see what "science" and "academic" scholarship you can accept.
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
I have written 2 replies to gina and another person but my posts were not published. Wondering why?
I wrote the connection of PKK & Armenian Government & Diaspora. Abdullah Öcalan admitted everything during the trial in 1999. "They offered us money in exchange with making an action in Turkey's big cities". There are many other quotations of him regarding this issue.
There are approximately 4 millions Turks living outside Turkey. Most of them are in Germany. They were not starving before they migrated but most of them were below the poverty line. It was Germany who invited them to rebuild the country. Migration is a part of todays world. There are many portugese,italian immigrants in switzerland. There are many finnish immigrants in sweden. There are many swedish immigrants in norway. It is for work, for a better life. Because these countries were lack of labor force, keep in mind. My sentence that started this conversation was "Turkey is the 18th biggest economy in the world".
To the guy who says Turks are brainwashed. I really wonder how come can you say something like this? In religious aspects, yes we are brainwashed like the rest of the world. Christians, Jews and others. Do you think they start reading all the holy books when they are 7 years old and than decide the right way for themselves? This is the way it is for us and for the rest. About other issues, you can only claim the people that lives on the land, on villages can be brainwashed. This is todays worlds problem. They cant or dont know how to reach the information. It is same for Greek villages, Russian villages, some parts of USA. Only countries like Japan, Sweden, Norway, Danmark, Switzerland could be "non-brainwashed" according to your description. In Turkey the people in the cities, officers, politicans, military stuff... can split the right and the wrong, know to ask why when it is necessary. But from your point of view Turks are brainwashed because they are muslim and they are Turks and they dont agree with you. I guess French people are also brainwashed, and USA citizens and Belgians because of ignoring what happened in Algeria, Iraq, Rwanda respectively.
I live in Sweden and the parliament approved the claims with a lucky voting process. Swedish prime minister Fredrik Reindfeldt said that "This decision does not reflect the thoughts or politics of Kingdom of Sweden, we totally disagree with the parliaments votes and we are not supporting this case." Mister Reinfedlt knows that the representatives who voted for YES are mostly from conservative christian parties. A kurdish girl also voted for YES. I checked her homepage and it stands that she was born in Bingöl, she calls it kurdistan on that page, and you guys call it Armenia , another contradiction.
I also read discriminating comments against Roberts name. Well guys i have 100% Turkish friends whose names are Jenny, Mikael, Martin, and parents are Turkish too. What does it have to do with his name? I havent seen such a discrimination like this ever on the internet.
If i meet a person and learn that he/she is armenian, it would only make me think that he/she is a foreigner just like french, english, albanian, japanese, nothing else. But when you guys meet a person and learn that he/she is turkish, you would escape as far as you can without trying to know him/her better. This is true, please do not try to justify your case with replies.
to sivas
first of all this is a forum not a former platform...so every comment is concerned to own commentor first...it is not really important to write proper nouns or something properly here..but is is really interesting that you , like other armenians, can impress your lie very forcefully ...even in a grammar problem..turkish way is not a distorting one...but your way is a really stable one..you can still go on telling lie nearly 100 years...
when you are talking about hocali you can ask some questions to your acceptor...this is really good..but why you ask these really similar question to yourself...what happened in 1915..enver and talat wake up and decided to kill all armenians...armenians were the parliementers , ministers, governors ,architectures etc in ottoman empire...they were the milleti-sadika for the ottoman..then what happened suddenly...may be there were reasons ..may be the problem was death civil people, death women, death pregnants also death fetuses..like in hocali... why dont you ask this questions to yourself..
our government offers opening the archives meanwhile...i know that is is your professionalism please dont keep at demagogy ...open all the archives
and lastly i am reaaly sory about grammar and poor english..but make sure that it is not about turkish distortion..
To zuluguay:
Never in the Armenian history, that extends back for millennia before Christ, have we committed mass massacres as you forefathers have in late 19th- early 20th century against the Armenians. We would never commit the same massacre if we had the chance. Why? Because if we could, we would have done it for numerous times in our history, since in many historical periods we were conquered by invaders and fell under the yoke of the foreign rule. Have we committed anything of that magnitude being under the Ottoman yoke for almost 600 years? Give me examples if you can.
Hatred, you say? Yes, but not towards the Turkish people, but toward your coward governments that deny and distort the truth about the Armenian genocide for decades. What would YOU feel towards a hostile government had your whole nation be wiped out by it from their ancestral lands, and their rich culture and architecture destroyed or transformed into sheep yards in ‘modern’ Turkey? Travel around your country and see for yourself… Keep in mind, that it is so because of WHAT HAPPENNED. And what happened was not just a crime against the Armenians. Genocides are crimes against humanity. Maybe you wouldn't commit mass exterminations, I don't know, but your grandfathers DID. And by denying acknowledging the truth your government fuels suspicions into the Armenians and other civilized peoples of the world that you’ll do it again if you’re given a chance.
As for political reasons, please be aware that because Germany, Britain, and Russia had affairs in the region during the WWI, they indirectly instigated the Turks to commit the crime and no one of them protected the Armenians. Here’s one unbiased comment that I hope you’ll appreciate. But regardless, the archives of these countries do contain a plethora of well-documented and referenced materials undeniably confirming the fact of deliberate race extermination by the Turks. In fact, some of these countries, like Russia, accepted the fact of the genocide, and Britain has started deliberations on the issue in the parliament.
Please reconsider your mindset: some, not all of course, states have blood on their hands, yes, but many of them have ACKNOWLEDGED it: Germans apologized to the Jews, French apologized to the Algerians, Americans accepted their guilt against Indians and Blacks by enacting the Civil Rights Act, Russia accepted Stalin’s mass purges against their own people, Holy See of Vatican accepted mass wrongdoings during the Inquisition, the list goes on and on… It’s not about defending a single case because the case of the Armenians, just as the Jewish holocaust, genocides of Ukrainians, Cambodians, Rwandans, and Darfurians, represents a crime against humanity and not an individual war episode or an instance of intercommunal violence.
I hope you come to your senses and appreciate the difference and comprehend the reasoning underlying the international demand from Turkey to acknowledge its past.
Hello Everyone..
I have to say that I agree with Hagop 100%. It would be nice and GREAT if we all marry our own.. God knows how desperately we need to multiply and keep our culture alive and pure... we shed too much blood and lost too many loved ones all over the world (which is why sometimes it is hard to understand what one means when they speak of keeping things within and holding on to the little that we were able to keep)...
However, intermarriages work ONLY if the family keeps a strong ties with the Armenian heritage.. Like Hagop said, most do not and I agree with this.
I believe it comes from the mother because she is the main care giver and the children learn and appreciate heritage and culture through her teachings and descipline.. Fathers please do not hate me.. I speak from experience.. Well.. from what I have seen so far from my friends and also from my brother..My brother has been dating and will probably end up marrying a Bulgarian..I love that girl.. She is very patriotic and very open to Armenian culture.. however, if she does not get involved with everything the ARmenians do and represent and I know she will instill that in their kids, my brother would not even bother.. He does not care much.. So that said, I am not saying every man will be like that but if the woman is ARmenian and the man is non-Armenian, the children have a higher probability to keep their heritage strong (ONLY if she has a strong connection to her heritage herself of course)....
Please do not discredit those who voice their opinion of the importance of marrying an Armenian vs Non-ARmenian... I deeply and truly understand why they say that and I respect that... I understand that it is hard when we are scattered all over the world and that one can't help who he or she falls in love with..... I am an Armenian woman in my early 30s, and still unsure of my future because I am stuck in these two worlds.. I am very much nationlist and patriot ..personally I would not consider marrying anyone but Armenian; however knowing that our fate brought us to these foreign lands, I have a high possibility marrying a non-Armenian.. If that is the case, one thing I am sure of and you can trust me on this is I will never allow myself to be with sev, chaynese, spanish, korean, ect ect ect...)...I will allow allow myself to marry spitak (Amerikatsi kam evropatsi).. Even that is questionable...... for many this may sound like I am putting boundaries and requirements on love but that is how I think..for many that may sound discriminating but that is my choice..I have nothing against those who end up marrying or are married to individuals from these background but I personally can't see myself doing it.. if i end up marrying my spitak/chermak husband..:) I know my heritage will be very prominent in my family forever and ever....just like Christine is doing.
That said..I want to say BRAVO Christine for keeping your heritage alive and strong on a foreigh land.. The children are beautiful and I am happy to know that they represent the Armenian heritage... Hope they grow up with the ARmenian shunch, hoqi and ser.... and THANK YOU to Christine's husband for his support and acceptance of the Armenian culture and heritage...
My last word: no matter where we, no matter who we marry, lets do everything to keep our Armenian flame burning strong and eternal... That is the only way we can survive and keep living as descendents of Great Armenia...
Thank you
Gayane
JANINE,
I GOT CURIOUS ABT YOUR INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS. I CHECKED IT OUT.
INDEED THERE IS A PART ON THEIR SITE ON 1915 EVENTS.
I WONDERED WHAT THEIR SOURCES WERE. THEY HAVE TWO SOURCES : ARMENIAN NATIONAL INSTITUTE AND ARMENIAN RESSEARCH CENTRE.
HOW OBJECTIVE CAN THEY BE?
ONE LAST WORD TO EVERYBODY:
ON THIS SITE EVERYBODY COMMENTING FROM TURKEY HAVE A VERY POSITIVE ATTITUDE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR CLAIMS ON 1915 EVENTS.
WHY THE ARMENIANS ON THIS SITE ARE INSULTING PEOPLE COMMENTING FROM TURKEY?
AFTER ALL YOU(ARMENIANS) WANT THE TURKS TO RECOGNIZE THEIR MISTAKE OF 1915. THE TURKISH COMMENTATOR ON THIS SITE HAVE NOT PERSONNALY COMMITED THE CRIMES YOU CLAIM THEIR ANCESTORS COMMITTED. WHAT THEY DO IS TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT OF VIEW.
WHY DON'T YOU TRY TO HELP THEM UNDERSTAND IT INSTEAD OF INSULTING THEM?
Dear Genocide Deniers:
Please read this letter from the International Association of Genocide Scholars. That's right, the full international body of all academics who study Genocide. It is the antidote to a faulty defense of an indefensible crime. If you can really accept the facts.
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
Dear Genocide Deniers:
I invite you all to read the opinion of the International Association of Genocide Scholars regarding the events that happened to the Armenian people at the hands of the Turkish government starting in 1915. This is the worldwide body of all genocide scholars; the voice of academic scholarship specializing in genocide studies. Let us see how serious you are about truth.
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
David...while I appreciate your comments, let's not kid ourselves..the major powers of the world really do not care about the genocide OR about Armenians. That's a fallacy. What they care about is their own self-interest and the flow of oil. The bottom line is that today's Armenia is in the way, and rather than take a cruel and hostile approach, everything is being done to placate the Armenians into handing over a safe transit route that will help Turkey, Israel and possibly Europe, but very little of substance is being offered to Armenia for this. This is the greatest game on earth and hopefully Armenians will be able to get something of lasting, permanent value out of it. If the Turks want Azeri and central Asian oil to come to them via Armenian territory, perhaps the price to pay will be genocide recognition. But, as with any other deal in the Middle East, there is some hard bargaining to be done. Let's just hope our little Armenia can hold its ground, work out a beneficial solution that is win-win on all sides, and move forward. This is in the interest of peace and prosperity, yes, but of all people, Armenians should not be cheated out of their history in the process.
Look people...you are embarrassments. I am Armenian and grew up hearing Turkish, English and a mix of Armenian and Turkish. If you have a problem with that, it's YOUR problem. Please stop insulting a language that your ancestors spoke for probably 900 years or more and stop insulting people you have never met. It's juvenile and sad. I have been many places in the world and met many people, but none have been more hospitable, polite and welcoming to me than in Turkey. This is no joke...this is true. And, if you ever go to Turkey, it will feel as comfortable to you as an old blanket or shoe...like you've been there before in a dream. You should be glad you are not native American, who saw 20 million compatriots decimated by the Spanish, Portugese, English, French and Dutch. You should be glad you are not Irish...starved to death by their British lords, or Algerians, mowed down by the French. Heck, even my Jewish friends drive BMWs and Mercedes...can you believe it? If anyone should be hateful, it is them. Yes, of course...Armenians were treated horribly at the end of the Ottoman Empire. Examine this history, and you will learn exactly who did this and why. It was not the general Turkish population, it was a group of nutcases who worked in secret. They were not patriots, but criminals and murderers and their paid for their crimes. Now, it is time to move on.
Robert, Murat, Yilmaz and Co,
Please forgive me for what I have to say but I have it get it out...
you all are IDIOTS.. PURE, GENUINE IDIOTS....
Thank you
Gayane
To Bitlis: I am very much aware of the difference between the terms "tragedy" and "genocide" but I left a note at the end of the comment. If you are not familiar with Article 301, please search it in wikipedia. I'm forced to censor my words for Turkey, as Khatchig Mouradian wrote in this series, is ever changing :)
Go Khan,
If Armenians are lying for 100 years and, as you personally think, will do so for another 100 years, I’ve got some questions for you and I don’t care if you make grammatical mistakes whether deliberately or accidently. I’ll still capitalize ‘Turks’ or Turkey’ because this is what we’ve been taught in Armenian schools. Anyway,
1) If we lie, according to the official Ottoman census of the early 1900, there were roughly 3 mln Armenian subjects inhabiting the Ottoman Empire in 1915. According to your ‘truth-telling’ prime-minister Erdogan, there are just nearly 60,000 Armenians living in Turkey nowadays. Could you tell the readers of this site as to what could possibly happen to the remaining 2 mln 940 thousands?
2) If we lie, according to the official Ottoman census of the early 1900s, there were some 3000 Armenian churches and monasteries across the country. How many, do you truthfully think, remained intact now after 1915, and what do you think could have happened to them? Note: if you respond that they were destroyed by earthquakes (a favorite Turkish lie), I’d use a derogatory word in response even at the risk that my comment could be removed by moderators.
3) If we lie, how, in your truthful view, Armenian diasporas spreading all over the world have been formed and what, in your view, might possibly be the reason for them to be uprooted and live not in their ancestral lands in Western Armenian provinces of Bitlis, Kars, Van, Sivas, Diyarbekir, Erzerum, and others (that’s been re-named by the Turks to ‘Eastern Anatolia’), but in the countries they never previously inhabited, such as the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Britain, Russia, Georgia, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, and the others?
4) If we lie, how, in your truthful view, could hundreds of thousands of bones of Armenians who were deported to the Syrian desert of Deyr Zor (which in 1915 was a part of the Ottoman Empire) and left there to starve to death, appear there and which are still found all around the place? If you answer that those could be non-Armenian, I’d refer you to numerous DNA tests proving their Armenian genetic origin.
5) If we lie, how, in all truth that you admire, would you explain that after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918, Turkey’s new government decided to try the Young Turks leaders and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress for involving the Ottoman Empire in WWI and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The encoded telegraphs and letters attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts that still exist in modern Turkish archives, attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. These documents proved that mass massacres and deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was carried out in 1915 exceptionally on the initiative of the Turkish government.
Finally, Armenians were never allowed to be parliamentarians, ministers, or governors in the Ottoman Empire. Is this the truth that you so passionately fight for? They were made millet by the Ottoman regime, who had no right to run for the office or occupy high governmental positions. Maybe you wanted to truthfully acknowledge that Armenians were good entrepreneurs, bankers, poets, writers, agricultural developers, and architects? Yes, they were. But it didn’t stop the Turks to massacre all of them. What could be the reason, you ask? I think one of the reasons was the Turkish envy that Armenians were in a dominant social position despite all the limitations imposed on them for being non-Muslims. Nearly 80% of trade and commerce in the Ottoman Empire was in Armenians’ hands. The Turks also feared that Christian Armenians could unite with advancing Christian Russian forces on the remote Eastern fronts. But there were no fronlines with the Russians in the central and central-eastern parts of Turkey that were inhabited by the Armenians. So, like Nazis, the final solution to the Armenian Question that the Turks have found was heinous and ugly. Like Nazis, Turks decided to annihilate the whole race.
Just FYI to all armenians:
You talk about armenians who use Turkish names and perhaps some changed their identity.. TANER AKCAM is an Armenian and secret service worker who uses unfortunately a Turkish name... shame on him...
There are more people like him in Turkey...
Kurt, Istanbul- Turkey
To: AB –
I welcome your curiosity about the world’s International Association of Genocide Scholars. May it be a belated sign of Turks’ genuine interest in properly acknowledging their forefathers’ crimes against humanity and their government’s shameless denial of the crime or just a maneuver to be better prepared to continue to deny the internationally recognized fact of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Turks, especially as they scent that yet another wave of genocide recognitions us rumbling? I wonder…
But I can still see the attempts to minimize the significance of the issue in virtually all its factors.
First, note the very first sentence of AB’s comment: “your(?!) International Association of Genocide Scholars.” Low lovely… As if the whole Association is flooded by Armenians. False. Whereas only Peter Balakin, i.e ONE Armenian scholar in in the Advisory Council.
Second, “There is a part(?!) on their site on 1915 events”. False. Out of 11 resolutions and statements made by the Association, 6, i.e. more than a half, pertain to the Armenian Genocide.
Third, I wonder where you wondered about their sources. Sources are references supporting a specific argument in a written work. Janine’s link was an Association’s president letter to U.S. President Obama. If you refer to RESOURCES section on the Association’s website, well, then that’s a different story. Typically, on organizations’ website there are Resources Sections, i.e. links to other organizations’ websites where readers can obtain additional information on a topic. Indeed, on the Association’s website there are “Resources on specific genocides”: Armenian National Institute’s and Armenian Research Center’s links. False is that the Association’s work and resolutions are not based on sources limited to Armenian National Institute and Armenian Research Center. These international academics have been involved in genocide studies for decades utilizing dozens of sources in archives and repositories, as well as witness accounts, whether in Armenia, Turkey, the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Russia, and other countries. Looks more than objective to me.
One last thing, Armenians don’t have claims, they have demands for Turkey to acknowledge the historical truth and apologize to them for wiping out on of the ancient civilizations inhabiting the earth from Western Armenian provinces of Van, Bitlis, Sassoun, Sivas, Kharpert, Kars, Ardaghan, Diyarberkir (‘Tigranakert’ in Armenian), and many others. And they demand apology not for a ‘mistake’, but for heinous crime against humanity that is internationally called Genocide. If you feel anxiety in their comments, try to imagine for a split second what it feels being mass murdered in the most brutal Turkish way, starved to death, endure death marches, widespread tortures, deported and expelled from the homeland where Armenians lived for millennia long before the Ottoman Empire formed in only 14th century AD. Imagine also how it feels that mass murderers for 95 years deny their crime and use every arsenal in their hands to avoid responsibility. I hope then you’ll understand Armenians’ frustration.
I guess Armenian children deserved to be deported to the desert, without food or water, as well because of a so-called civil war. I guess Armenian women deserved to be raped or put in harems (to prevent a so-called civil war).
Why don't Turks admit that their grandparents were rapists, murders, homsexuals who had a penchant for young boys?
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
You know, all we have to do is just be quiet and let some people around here talk and the whole case will be proven.
How is it that people who can at least read in English don't know that the elimination of an entire population from their homeland -- even in the midst of a FULL SCALE WAR - is a war crime and still a genocide? Do you really think the elimination and murder of 1.5 million people could be justified by ANYTHING under international law? This is how far away from reality these arguments are. Never mind that there was not even remotely any such thing.
David,
As a biologist, I fundamentally disagree with your statement that "it has been demonstrated from a scientific point of view that indeed Turks and Armenians are related (both peoples share the genetic disease Mediterranean fever)." I'd like to have the links and references to that scientific ‘evidence’. Every nation is related to each other biologically, you'll be shocked to know that an Armenian grandson can be more related to a Chinese based on his DNA that to his own grandfather. Intermarriages, intercourses with Armenian girls whom Turks forcibly sold to harems, and scores of Armenian children that have been converted to Islam of course leave a genetic imprint, but is it sufficient to claim that these two peoples are related to each other?! This is incorrect also from the historical, racial, and religious points of view. Armenians, whose ethnogenesis is commonly accepted to go as far back as 2nd millennia BC, cannot possibly be related to the newcomers on the world map, the Turks, whose Seljuk forefathers-nomads came across to Asia Minor from the Central Asian steppes only in the 11th century AD. Racially and linguistically, Armenians belong to Indo-European family of nations that originated in Northern India and then spread across Asia Minor and into Europe, whereas Turks are of nomadic Turkic origin. Religiously, needless to say, perhaps, we are one of the most ancient Christians inhabiting the Earth, first nation that is internationally known as having officially adopted Christianity its state religion in the 4th century AD as, whereas Turks are the followers of Islam which emerged in Arabia only in the 7th century AD. I’d like to take a look at the evidence you’ve mentioned.
Curiously,
Artashes
Kaya -- so you think that if Israel decided to eliminate 1.5 million Palestinian men, women and children, it would only the Palestinians who were guilty, then. That is the idiotic argument you are making here. And the Armenians never did to Turkey the level that Palestinian resistance has done to Israel.
Karekin – I think in some instances it may look as if commentators here accuse the Turkish nation, but in reality I know that Armenians mean their governments – both genocide-perpetrators and all subsequent denialist regimes, including the most recent one under Erdogan. We all know that it was their Hamidian and Young Turk governments, not the general public, that instigated the genocidal mass murder of the Armenians. But it doesn’t diminish their responsibility for the horrific crime as many Turk commentators here whom, as you say, we never met, continue to sing the old crap about ‘Armenians butchering poor Turks’. If these people are nice, as you say, why wouldn’t they first take a thorough look into a plethora of materials available in their own archives (for instance, the 1918 Turkish Military Tribunal’s verdict against Young Turks for perpetrating the Armenian Genocide) or in the Internet where there’s a wealth of unbiased and referenced materials (non-Armenian) pertaining to the crime of their governments? And you sound really embarrassing, dude, by daring to say this: “You should be glad(?!) you’re not Irish starved to death by their British lords, or Algerians, mowed down by the French.” Get a grip, dude… What’s wrong with you? What is it that Armenians should be ‘glad’ about? That the whole Western Armenian civilization has been wiped out in Ottoman Turkey? Virtually whole population of 3 mln people, churches, monasteries, educational centers, architectural marbles, agricultural lands, houses, personal property, wealth and money?! Why shouldn’t I be hateful just like the Irish, Algerians, and the Jews, when my grandmother’s whole family has been burnt alive along with the others in a church and she miraculously survived, being a little girl, through a wall niche? The history of those cataclysmic for Armenians years has already been examined by international scholars. And no, Turkish criminals and murderers have not paid for their crimes: many of the CUP executives-genocide perpetrators later appeared in the high-ranking echelons of consecutive Turkish governments, many others have been moved away from Turkey by the British to avoid punishment. Turkish crimes will be paid for when their government stops denying the historical truth and apologize to the Armenians, just as Germans did to the Jews, French to the Algerians, and Americans to the Indians and Blacks by means of the Civil Rights Act.
After that, and only after that will be the time to move on.
Janine
I have given comments of Norman Stone regarding the genocide but one of your friend was very quick to ignore his thoughts. Here is one more article from the excellent professor, http://www.turkishcoalition.org/media/stone.pdf
In this article Mister Stone points out who is behind the "International Association of Genocide Scholars". So I am asking you, how objective can this organization be?
If you read this article, you will unfortunately see how well the diaspora is working. Like him or not but Norman Stone is a world-wide known history professor and his articles really worth to read it. Enjoy!
To Artashes Bakunts,
Thank you for your response which was quite interesting to read.
First off, here's a reference to Mediterranean fever - http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/21/health/la-he-practice21-2009dec21
Additional articles can be found through google under 'Armenians Turks Mediteranean fever'. Here's a few sentences from the article. 'Familial Mediterranean fever is a genetic disease that primarily affects certain people -- Greeks, Armenians, Turks and Sephardic Jews in particular -- whose ancestors once lived in lands bordering that great sea.'
Without getting into elaborate details (in a crunch at work) I think perhaps the issue of disagreement concerns how we are using the word 'related'. My use of the word is mainly to emphasize that indeed the Turks were, relatively speaking, newcomers to Anatolia and that modern day Turks do not look like the Central Asian type, i.e. mongoloid features, of people that one would expect given the history. That leaves the question, if Turks don't look like Central Asian people then what do they look like? From my experience (a visit to historical Armenia and Istanbul) modern day Turks look very much like Greeks and Armenians. So how did that happen? I would suggest, for many if not all of the reasons you mentioned in your post.
My real point in all of this is to assert that notions of racial purity, are just plain nonsense. Your explanations of this from a biologist's point of view are much better than mine so I won't elaborate.
What matters in the end is culture and yes indeed, Armenians and Turks, do differ significantly in language, history, religion, politics, etc. i.e. culture.
Again, my apologies for not being able to spend more time with this - a very interesting discussion.
To Karekin,
Concerning Armenia and the great game of oil politics, what you wrote was very interesting and I concur completely. I hope, along with you, that Armenia can survive this game. It certainly is not an easy task, which seems to usually be the case for Armenian interests.
To: Kurt, Istanbul (known as Constantinople throughout the history)- Turkey
FYI, ‘Armenians’ is a proper noun, in case you missed grammar classes at school, next time you use proper nouns, any, not necessarily related to Armenians, do try to memorize this trivial grammatical canon, OK? Now, to the point of your comment: what essentially IS Turkish identity? Do you know what huge number of representatives of ancient nations you forcibly interbred? Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and many, many others… Let your government lift the discriminatory Article 301 of your Penal Code and you’ll be shocked to know how many millions of your co-citizens will reveal their non-Turkish, non-Muslim origin. Your identity belongs to Altay mountains and steppes of Central Asia, not in Asia Minor. Intellectuals like Taner Akcam and Orhan Pamuk are national heros, my hat goes off to them for their courage and determination to speak the truth about the Armenian Genocide. They show by their example that the Turks are not widely “barbaric Turks” as the world came to know them, but can also be honest and courageous people. Shame on YOU for being a genocide-denialist and for not having guts to speak out the truth.
There’s a very convincing and widely used verse in the Holy Bible (and I understand you may a Muslim, but the meaning of the verse is all-human, universal, I believe). It’s in John 8:32 “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
to istanbul:
couldn't read the entire menu; but I'll take a lahmajeun and shish kebab , medium rare please.
"Norman Stone" - whoever he is - has nothing to do with being a reputable historian. He works in Turkey, a country where it is forbidden by law to refer to the Armenian genocide - so much so that even people posting on this website from Turkey are gagged by the infamous Article 301. So much for objectivity.
The International Association of Genocide Scholars is just what it says - THE international organization of academics who specialize in genocide scholarship. The names on the letterhead are all famous Genocide scholars with top reputations. Nobody ever heard of poor Norman Stone, who can only get a job at minor universities in Turkey. I might be crazy too if I were in his shoes, and hard up enough for money that I would take someone's cash in order to deny the murder of over a million people and be complicit in genocide by doing so.
You know, these comments are just pathetic by the genocide deniers . I'm sure you people must be paid, but my goodness it's amazing how awful these comments really are. I'd feel sorry for you all except for the meagre wages you must be paid to be here posting the insanely dumb remarks here. Like -- please tell me how objective an organization called the "Turkish Coalition" can be. Are you kidding me? Nope, probably not.
To Goklap
Mr. stone has his real original land has a home in united kingdom.
Did any one kill his grand father?
He writes for fame and is free to write.
"We write from our blood,
We lost every thing from pen to ink"
Please stop photocopying.
I think every Armenian should stop writing.
Let us find another subject to write.
For Armenians it is easier to carve on rocks than
discuss with undiscussable people.
Real owners of Karabagh and current Azerbeijani territories(historical Armenian lands) belong to Armenians. Azeris and Turks are illegal alliens in there. So, please do a good favor, for once in your lives, to the original people in Caucasus and leave to Mongolia. Mongolia is the original nation of Turks and Azeris. Current Anatolia belongs to Armenians, Greeks, Syrians and Iraqise.
TO CDEFG AND MSHECI,
AS A HALF ARMENIAN HALF LEBANESE TURKISH CITIZEN LIVING IN TURKEY I CAN TELL YOU THAT I AM PROUD TO BE TURKISH.
FROM MY MOTHER'S FAMILY AND HER RELATIVES LIVING IN THE US I KEPT HEARING THE SAME STORIES ON 1915 EVENTS.
I PERSONALY HAVE MY OWN OPINION ON 1915 EVENTS AND I BELIEVE EVERYTHING HAS A REASON TO HAPPEN. AND PLEASE DON'T SAY THAT IT HAPPENED BECAUSE ARMENIANS WERE SMARTER THAN THE TURKS, BECAUSE SUCH ARGUMENTS ARE RIDICULOUS.
SOME OF TURKISH COMMENTATOR HAVE STATED THAT THEIR GRAND PARENTS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS AND I AM SURE THAT THIS ALSO HAPPENED. SURELY A FEW THOUSANDS TURKS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS.
MY TURKISH NEIGHBOOR NEXT DOOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN VERY NICE TO ME AND I NEVER FELT AN ALIEN. AND I REPEAT NEITHER MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOOR NOR THE TURKISH COMMENTATORS ON THIS SITE HAVE COMITTED ANY CRIME AGAINST YOU/ME AND YOUR/MY ANCESTORS.
THEY ARE JUST IN THIS SITE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND YOU INSTEAD OF TRYING TO HELP THEM TO DO SO YOU KEEP INSULTING THEM.
HOW CAN THEY ADMIT AND APOLOGIZES FOR SOMETHING THEY DO NOT KNOW ABT? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE TO EARN PEOPLE'S SYMPATHY IN ORDER FOR THE ELECTED POLITICIANS TO CHANGE THEIR POLICIES?
THE TURKISH NATION IS COMPOSED OF ARMENIAN, TURKS, ROMAN, TCHERKEZ, LAZSS, ETC... AND WE ALL LIVE TOGETHER.
ONE LAST NOTE ON HRANT DINK:
ARMENIAN COMMENTATORS HAVE EXTENSIVELY TALKED ABT HRANT DINK AND SAVAGE HIS MURDER. NOBODY IS TALKING ABT THOUSAND OF TURKISH PEOPLE WHICH HAVE WALKED SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE DINK FAMILY TO CONDEMN THE CRIME WHICH WAS COMITTED AND TO SUPPORT THEM.
APPROACH SUCH AS THE ONE DISPLAYED BY SOME OF THE ARMENIANS IN THIS PAGE IS KILLING THE SYMPATHY FELT BY TURKISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET AND IT DOES NOT HELP AT ALL.
I wrote
"Turkish Government lastly proposed to form a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue altogether. In addition to that, they announced that we are ready to open all our archieve to that commission and asked you to open all your archieve also."
and got no satisfactory answers yet.
just tell me,
Why do you insistently avoid to join in such a commission? Don't you trust your so-called internationally accepted, fairly referenced documents?
Why don't you directly come and negotiate it with Turkey?
Why have you turned the issue which is quite deep and serious into lobby wars?
Why do you need such protective actions of your big brothers like the US, France, the UK?
Just tell me why? And I will stop writing.
The reality is that outside of Turkey, the scholarly community knows the truth, but that's also true in Turkey. I've heard it told to me multiple times there. The propaganda effort of the ultranationalists to bury the truth may appear to have succeeded, but just about anyone in Turkey can point to a vacant house and tell you it is an Armenian house, or that the govt got rid of the Armenians. Eventually, those at the top will have to drop the curtain and reveal 95 years of lies to their own people, and yes, apologize to Armenians all over the world. And then hopefully, this nightmare can wind down. In fact, if Turkey gets really serious, they should invite Armenians from all over the world to visit, not just Pres. Sarkisyan. It is not the Turkey of our grandparents' horror stories, but the Turkey of their positive stories. Much of the negativity said here exists mostly in the minds of those who write it. They should all go to Turkey and experience it. Khachig did...and aside from the psychological trauma, it sounds like he had a very revelatory and perhaps, wonderful, experience in the lands of our forefathers.
The reason David is right on target about DNA and heritage in Turkey is because from the time the Seljuks arrived, there were very few, all male warriors coming in and mingling w/ the locals. In one generation, those Turks all had half-Armenian children. The process continued as additional waves entered Anatolia, but the local population was always the foundation of the population. Extrapolate that 900 years ahead, and virtually every 'Turk' in Turkey is of very mixed heritage, incorporating Armenian, Greek and other backgrounds. Keep in mind, not one Sultan ever choose a 'Turkish' wife...they were all from the minorities groups (who were viewed in very high esteem) of the empire. So, even the ruling classes were all mixed. That is why by 1915, the population was actually minority Turkish, not minority Muslim, but Turks were roughly the same number as Armenians.
To Mr. Zulugury and others
Why Armenians are unable to kill,
Because... they don't have that wicked gene.
What you said is true
They don't like to hear any Turkish name
Because their scimitars
Still shinning on our face.
We can still see our innocent ancestors’ fresh blood
Dripping from that faithless metal
On our Anatolian Land.
We don't have hate
We respect every religion
We love every race.
Every spirit loves us
Because we are heartily honest
You can never change us.
We die with smile in our face
Because it stamped in our DNAs
No one can wipe our special gene.
One day an honest man told me:
You are European by your hard effort
Being perfectionist honest,
With an eastern passionate sense.
That always ignites our eyes
Shines from our deep clean heart
And clever brain cells.
We don’t kill,
Because we don’t think
If we can kill we will live
Our faith has 'Gomidasian Grace'
And We don’t have to kill
As our hands birthed to build always.
Paint, write and like to grasp every language
To share agonies of every human race.
This is our poem to every one
Showing what is in our frank heart and true mind.
Every Turkish knows these facts well
For that reason you vanished
Our gifted soul without understanding
The true base!
Now Anatolia is an arid land
Full of dirt and destruction.
However our crosses are still praying there
Still shinning clean
Stays washed with our tears
Blowing from every corners of earth.
This what every Armenian every second
See their genocide and Remember with prayers.
To one God, who is your God and every one else.
Written Instantly
To: general koofta -- Loved it, absolutely loved it! Dude, lol, burst in laughter...
Pleas i need to know who is Garabed kaytanjyan? i have the same name
Janine
You are no different than your friend, I feel sorry for you. First of all, before you pronounce Norman Stone's name you have to think twice. He has been working in Oxford University, second he has been political advisor of Margaret Thatcher. You probably dont know him or dont want to read him because he is not one of the promoted writers by diaspora. He has always been claiming that it was not a "genocide" before coming Turkey and after. So I am asking you like Mister Stone says in his article; why Algerian, Bosnian and Rwandan murders does not qualify to search for this so called association? Does it make him a person like me just because he currently works in a Turkish university? (you call it minor, i suggest you to check the background of lecturers in these universities)
About Turkish coalition page, I was 99% sure that you were going to say something about it. Well, it is only a page, a foundation that published Mister Stone's article. You can read the article on other sources too. You are just being aggressive, attacking your opponent without questioning. I feel the sense of Anti-Turkism in your sentences just like many others here.
To Slvya
So these genocide scholar, their homeland is USA, Canada, Argentina... Did anybody killed their forefathers? They are also free to write whatever they want. You should stop ignoring how hard the diaspora working.
My final words, the solution between two countries can only be solved with a dialogue. I totally accept the death of thousands from both sides. You guys continue dreaming about western countries approvals on this claim, but it will not make any sense. Last years two countries started to negotiate but diaspora didnt want it to go any further. Most of you are full of hate, anger and your Anti-Turkism feelings are still growing. Whatever I say is wrong, doesnt worth to read or discuss not because it is right/wrong but because i am a Türk.
I wish you enjoyable discussions with each other. You can flatter each other here. I am sorry that i will not participate anymore because i know it is a waste of time to try discuss in a patriotic website.
To Karekin:
I can understand your psychological affinity to Turkey: your previous posts are suggesting that your parents might have escaped from the country and Turkish language was one of the languages they spoke. But please don’t generalize based on your individual experience. First, our ancestors have not spoken Turkish for probably 900 years or more, those who invaded Armenia and other nations in Asia Minor in the 11th century AD were nomadic Seljuks who at the time were in the process of settling down on occupied lands and yet to develop all characteristics of a nation-state, including the language. Although Armenian Major fell to their conquest, please don’t forget that Little Armenia, Cilicia, existed until the 14th century when it fell to Egyptian Mameluks and afterwards to Ottoman Turks. Our ancestors, therefore, lived under the Turkish yoke for about 600 and not 900 years. Many of them didn’t know Turkish: the family of my grandparents has escaped Turkish barbarism in 1915 from Moush and Kars, and they never spoke Turkish because they didn’t know it well at all.
I can also understand that when you visit Turkey they might show their hospitality with a typically Turkish emphasis on insinuation and appeasement, and you or Khachig might have had ‘a revelatory and perhaps, wonderful, experience in Turkey,’ but one needs to be real and sober-minded and present the issue in all objectivity. One cannot but avoid mentioning that along with Turkish hospitality and appeasement there exists also barbarism and intolerance towards ethnic, racial, and religious minorities, very similar to that of the Germans. From the one hand, this highly civilized nation has contributed heavily to the human civilization producing world-renowned scientists, musicians, architects, poets, writers, military leaders and statesmen. On the other, the same Germans have shown barbarity and uncivilized inhumanity towards the Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, and others. You may argue that those were Young Turks and Nazis, respectively, yes, but in contrast to the Turks, Germans have apologized to the Jews for their mass extermination by the Nazis, whereas the Turks for 95 years in a typically cunning and sly Turkish manner utilize all the arsenal in their possession to deny the crime that Young Turks have committed against the Armenians.
In this context, Karekin, I’m really bewildered by your statement that “it is not the Turkey of our grandparents’ horror stories, but the Turkey of their positive stories.” What is it that happened in the course of time that passed from our grandparents’ horror stories, read: after 1915-1921, that could qualify Turkey as 'the Turkey of their positive stories'? Section 301 of their Penal Code now allows them to call Young Turks' crime a Genocide? Those dozens of Turkish intellectuals who heroically raise their voice to speak the truth about the Genocide are not being imprisoned and expelled from the country? Those intellectuals of Armenian origin who invite Turkish authorities to open up and admit the guilt committed against the Armenians, like Hrant Dink, are not shot in the daylight on the streets? Or maybe 12 million pure disinformation DVDs describing ‘how Armenians butchered poor Turks en masse’ have not been distributed to the Turkish schools? Or the modern Turkish government stopped denying the truth of the crime against humanity that all previous governments were denying as well? Or their modern prime minister, in unison with the Young Turks’ murderous regime, hasn’t just recently declared that he’d deport Armenians from the country? Or even in this discussion forum, basically all Turkish commentators attempt not to understand our pain and frustration, but systematically advance their brainwashed propaganda that genocide has never occurred, despite the overwhelming historical, institutional, and legislative acknowledgement of the fact by nearly 30 countries of the world, the International Association of the Genocide scholars, 44 state legislatures in the U.S., the European Parliament, leading human rights organizations, historians, and international lawyers?
What is it that essentially changed in the Turkish society with regard to their denialist stance that can make me suspect for a split second that Turkey has become a country of ‘positive’ stories?
Karekin -- The Seljuks have not objectively ‘arrived’ to the area. They invaded it with sword, fire, and unutterable barbarity. Maybe they considered themselves warriors, but for the indigenous peoples inhabiting Asia Minor for millenia they were invaders, looters, rapists, and occupiers of other nations’ lands. We need to call things by their names. And it’s not 900 years that Armenians lived under their yoke: last Armenian kingdom of Cilicia existed up until 14th century, which makes it 600 years. We need to project the picture fully so these Turkish visitors understand that their forefathers were newcomers to the area and the lands they presently occupy originally were not theirs. Maybe this way they would become more inclined to understanding the Armenians’ pain. Thank you. -- Taguhi
Dear Kharpert,
May I have your permission to use parts of your comment that I'd like to incorporate in my response to one the Turks constantly posing questions in this Forum, but who appears to have serious reading comprehension problem fomthe answers he's given? Please reply to anushka_tovmas@erols.com. Many thanks.
Mr. Mensoian has written two extremely informative and fine articles in this series and should be commended, as should the Armenian Weekly for publishing them.
One must wonder about possibly unforeseen or unusual factors in an Azeri attack, especially in view of the huge amounts of oil and gas revenue that Azerbaijan is investing in its military.
Possibilities: Air superiority (attack jets and bombers; drones bought from Israel). Ground-to-ground medium range missiles. Long range artillery. Electronic warfare. Outlawed weapons. Mercenaries. An attack on Armenia proper's northeast borders to divert Armenian men and equipment from Artsakh. Military intelligence and advisors provided to Azerbaijan from the US, Turkey, Israel, and possibly other countries to the east and south, and even, possibly, depending on whether a deal has been struck between it and Azerbaijan, Russia.
URFACI,
I CANNOT READ YOUR POST WITHOUT SMILING.
I WANDER WHO IS BRAINWASHED. MOST OF THE TURKS WRITING IN THIS SITE ARE TRYING TO SHARE YOUR PAIN AN SOME EVEN APOLOGIZING.
YOU ON THE OTHER HAND, ARE TRYING TO WARN A FELLOW ARMENIAN ON NOT GETTING SOFT AND REMEMBERING WHO THE TURKS ARE.
IN MY VIEW (I KNOW IT FOR A FACT), ARMENIANS ARE BRAINWASHED TO HATE THE TURKS AS A RACE. WHAT THE COMMENTATORS FROM TURKEY OR THE TURK FROM THE STREET DID TO YOU?
I REPEAT WHAT I SAID EARLIER. FOR OPINIONS AND POLITICS TO CHANGE IN TURKEY YOU HAVE TO WIN PEOPLE'S SYMPATHY.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT BY INSULTING THE TURKS AS A RACE WITHOUT DISTINGUISHING EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL.
To: “Human” and Proud
You wrote: “Turkish Government lastly proposed to form a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue altogether. This is a wrong, misleading statement.
Article 2 and Article 3 of the Protocol on Development of Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey clearly states:
2. Agree to conduct regular political consultations between the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the two countries;
implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations;
3. Agree on the establishment of an intergovernmental bilateral commission which shall comprise separate sub-commissions for the prompt implementation of the commitments mentioned in operational paragraph 2 above in this Protocol.
(Source: The Journal of Turkish Weekly, http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/88032/full-text-of-the-protocols-signed-by-turkey-and-armenia.html)
Your statement is false in the point that the mentioned Articles 2 and 3 call for a sub-commission to implement “a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations; and not a “commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue [of the Armenian Genocide].”
As for the issue unrelated to the Protocols that is raised by you, as to why the majority of Armenians reject “a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue [of the Armenian Genocide],” Armenians have for numerous occasions made their arguments clear. Here they are:
1) Why do you insistently avoid to join such a commission? Don’t you trust your so-called internationally accepted, fairly referenced documents?
We, as well as the increasing number of member-states in the international community, professional associations and human rights organizations, the European Parliament, and other professionals, do trust internationally accepted, researched, studied, scrutinized, and referenced documents pertaining to the Genocide. In fact, it is based on them that those countries, organizations, and historians have come to a conclusion that actions of the Young Turks unambiguously fall under the definition of genocide. Because these countries, organizations, professional associations, genocide scholars, historians, archivists, and international lawyers have already firmly concluded that in 1915-1921 Ottoman Turks perpetrated mass massacres and deportations aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population (read: Genocide), Armenians believe that, given their conclusion and international recognition of the fact, the creation of a bilateral Armenian-Turkish commission is unnecessary.
2) Why don’t you directly come and negotiate it with Turkey?
Firstly, Armenians don’t have to ‘come’ to Turkey, it is Turkey, as genocide-perpetrator state, needs to come to Armenians and extend their apologies for mass exterminating the whole population, historical monuments, and properties of nearly 3 mln Ottoman subjects of Armenian descent. Secondly, for 95 years Turkey has continuously denied its crime against humanity, spread misinformation and lies about the true facts, distorted its archives, Even nowadays, 12 mln DVDs have been distributed to the Turkish schools shamelessly describing how ‘Armenians exterminated the Turks. In addition, those who speak the truth about the Genocide in the Turkish society are either being imprisoned, or deported, or shot to death, as in the case of Hrant Dink. Turkish prime-minister declares to the whole world, just as his murderous Young Turk predecessors implemented in 1915-1921, that he’d deport Armenians from Turkey. In other words, Turks have not shown credibility that’d allow the Armenians to negotiate with Turkey. It is clear for the Armenians that Turks will use negotiations as another tool to prolong the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by engaging themselves in negotiations that could last for another 95 years. Armenians rightfully consider such sly Turkish statements as an attempt to drag the issue for indefinite time and avoid responsibility.
3) Why have you turned the issue which is quite deep and serious into lobby wars?
Because of the same reason, explained in 2), that is: because Turkey for 95 years denies the fact and avoids acknowledging its crime, the issue, along with other tools demanding justice, has been also transformed into international lobbying efforts.
4) Why do you need such protective actions of your big brothers like the US, France, the UK?
Because of the same reason, explained in 2), that is: because Turkey by itself is unwilling and unable for 95 years to face the truth and accept guilt for heinous crime. Besides, these countries are not our ‘big brothers’. In fact, only France has adopted a parliamentary resolution acknowledging the Genocide and punishment for all those who deny it. The U.S. has not (so far), and the UK has not (so far). Historically, the UK government, for your knowledge, played a destructive role (for Armenians) in the course of the Armenian Genocide, indirectly instigating the Turks by not trying to stop their atrocities. During the genocide Armenians were totally unprotected by anyone, whether big or small ‘brothers.’ By the way, the only government that was obliged to protect them was the Ottoman Turkish government that chose to exterminate all of its Armenian subjects.
And now you tell me (and I’m using this part with the permission of ‘Kharpert’, one of the authors in this Forum):
1) According to the Ottoman census of the early 1900s, there were roughly 3 mln Armenian subjects inhabiting the Ottoman Empire before 1915. According to your prime-minister Erdogan, there are just nearly 60,000 Armenians living in Turkey nowadays. Could you tell the readers of this site as to what could possibly happen to the remaining 2 mln 940 thousands?
2) According to the Ottoman census of the early 1900s, there were some 3000 Armenian churches and monasteries across the country at the time. How many, do you think, remained intact now after 1915-1921, and what do you think could have happened to them?
3) How, in your view, Armenian diasporas spreading all over the world have been formed and what, in your view, might possibly be the reason for them to be uprooted and live not in their ancestral lands in Western Armenian provinces of Bitlis, Kars, Van, Sivas, Diyarbekir, Erzerum, and others, but in the countries they never previously inhabited, such as the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Britain, Russia, Georgia, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, and others?
4) How, in your view, could hundreds of thousands of bones of Armenians who were deported to the Syrian desert of Deyr Zor (which in 1915 was a part of the Ottoman Empire) and left there to starve to death, are still found all around the vast area? If you answer that those could be non-Armenian, I’d refer you to DNA tests proving their Armenian genetic origin.
5) How would you explain that after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918, Turkey’s new government decided to try the Young Turks leaders and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress for involving the Ottoman Empire in WWI and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The encoded telegraphs and letters attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts that still exist in modern Turkish archives, attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. These documents proved that mass massacres and deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was carried out in 1915 exceptionally on the initiative of the central Turkish government.
Answer these questions, if you can, and I, too, will stop posting comments in this Forum.
I read an article by Norman Stone in the Chicago Tribune in 2007 that was reprinted here by someone from Turkey in a post under the bones of the Der Zor article. I left a comment that I read the article and was surprised that there was not much notice or rebuttal to it by the Armenian community in Illinois, that I could discern in future issues of the newspaper, because at the time the genocide bill was before Congress and the Jewish lobby was being attacked for supporting Turkish denial. Being Jewish, with Armenian genocide survivors in the family, I was initially iritated by the article because I thought it was biased. Since then I have read a lot of history books. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the reason the Turkish murderers were let go at trial, was not because they were not guilty, but because Turkey was holding British prisoners as hostages (one whose name I forgot but who was mentioned in all my history books, an important British diplomat, and who ended up as a Turkish prisoner). So Turkey used blackmail for a long time. This is only one of the biased comments in the article. However, since you are bringing up Norman Stone, I thought it was fair to mention that in my opinion, the article is full of historical mistakes and misinformation and bias. Why? Ask Norman Stone did he not mention the people found guilty were let go because Turkey threatened to keep or harm the British hostages?
Thank you, Anonymous. Your contibution is valuable as it shows to the Turkish commentators in this discussion that if Armenians can be biased (as Turks perceice our comments), there are and always will be representatives of other inations that were subjected to genocides, who can understand the Armenians' pain and speak the truth about a given episode as in the case of Norman Stone. Thank you.
Thank you, anonymous. I really appreciate your comment. As you can see, the International Association of Genocide Scholars clearly represents the foundation of genocide scholarship worldwide. It's an interdisciplinary organization as well. Here you can find a list of some of their current publications:
http://www.genocidescholars.org/bookspublications.html
It is all the more shocking as "Norman Stone" supposedly "worked" at Oxford and according to Gokalp, above, was Margaret Thatcher's advisor. How far the mighty have fallen then, to be at a second rate Turkish university that doesn't even have a graduate program? And to fail to mention the blackmail by kidnapping of his British compatriots in the foreign service? Maybe there's a reason he had to leave England.
Not too impressive, there, Gokalp. Once again, Gokalp, I can only refer you to the true International Association of Genocide Scholars, rather than a Turkish lobbying group that pays people to say what it wants. The academics in the IASGS are true scholars and represent the full body of genocide scholarship.
Gokalp, you cannot be taken seriously at all. Nothing you write makes any sense and it has nothing serious behind it. "Dialogue" doesn't exist for you, because you cannot take in the facts as they are presented. "Mister Norman Stone" does not stack up against the full body of genocide scholarship.
Why does Norman Stone defend Turkish denialists. I looked him up in wikipedia just now and there was one article he wrote, mentioned in a footnote, that implies that he might be afraid of the ultranationalists' claims because they might be demanding reparations. He cites the claims before the AXA insurance company. Actually, AXA said it was really happy to pay off the survivors of the Armenians killed in the genocide who had insurance polices. As I remember, it was Talat Pasha, the villain, who asked Henry Morgenthau to hand over the list of people insured by AXA so he and Turkey could receive the insurance money. How villainous, when they had already used the stolen Armenian property and money to pay off the Turkish debt. Stone calls his a "shake down" on AXA. How awful, since they say they were happy to repay the survivors; what should we call the villain Talat's desire to take this money instead for Turkey, after having murdered the insured Armenians.
Is history being distorted, according to subjective bias and prejudice, to get out of paying reparations and/or are there also reasons for Turkish denial like some Turks feel they are superior racially to the Armenians and everyone else. That is one reason it may be difficult to solve these conflicts, because of the racial superiority claimed by parties. Thank goodness Germans have apologized and feel bad about what happened to the Jews and others.
Hye, Dr. Damadian
Your contribution to the world's well-being is extraordinary and well recognized. Which makes me believe that we Armenians, from our earliest origins, until into today, have contributed greatly to all the fields of endeavors for the advancement for all mankind. We are so proud of your contributions to the medical world!
Which also make me realize that I have never heard of any such priceless 'gifts' to the world from those who claim to fame has been awarded the title as the first Genocide of the 20th century perpetuated by the Ottoman Turks - and their subsequent leaderships - to this day in denials... the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation.
Imagine! If the civilized nations of the world had brought Turks to face their guilt for their slaughters, rapes, churches filled with women/children then set afire, bandindo a torture of the victims feet being beaten until bloody, to burst, and death... for then, and surely then, none of all the Genocides that followed the Armenian Genocide shall never have ever been! The cycle of Genocides shall have ended - all the innocents since shall have not been murdered, survivors had not to have lived with the unforgettable memories. Manooshag
Turkey's victory over the Armenians within Turkey is obvious due to the miobic politics of Mr. Sarksyan, the illegal President of Armenia. Moreover, the Republic of Turkey has also gotten a moral, economic, and political advantage over the Armenians within Armenia, also thanks to the anti-Armenian politics of Sarksyan-Nalbandyan tandem.
I decided not to write anymore but you guys continue denying almost everything based on evidence.
Janine, my reply refers especially to you. How come can you throw stones over everything that is related to Turkey? According to you our universities are like a european kindergarden, right? We only learn to read, write and play games with each other. I dont like using ctrl+c and +v all the time as you do. Bilkent University is a very good university recognized by the world-wide organizations. A lot of students i know had been admitted to doctoral studies in Europe and USA directly after their undergraduate program and additionally many research programs are available. It is just to go their webpage and surf a little, please do it. You will see many articles and reseaches that are published in the international journals. Mister Stones new university, "Koc University" has also graduate and post graduate programs. You dont really worth to get this reply , it is a waste of time but let others read this so do not fool the rest of the visitors by saying "How far the mighty have fallen then, to be at a second rate Turkish university that doesn’t even have a graduate program?" Also if you go to UK parliament archives you will see that Mister Stone has been UK prime ministers advisor. It is not according to me, according to world I guess.
When you write something, it would be nice to show some facts. Why Norman Stone wrote this articles and currently working in a Turkish university? Was he kicked out of UK or he liked Turkish culture, orientalism and life down there?
I dont expect a response from you or from anybody else because i dont want to waste my time here. There are some facts on this site but for most of you every Turkish is wrong and every Anti-Turkish is write. An advise for you to keep in mind for a lifetime, "think before you write!"
Anonymous, there is no doubt that an ultranationalistic need to claim superiority is at work in all genocide perpetration, and its continued cover-up well past the date of the original violent acts. The decision to destroy another race of people has its roots in such genocidal thinking; modern forms of ultranationalism certainly were not unique to the Nazis. They continued to be inspired by the Turkish government's acts of 1915 - modern Nazis in new form today continue to deny there was a holocaust as well.
Norman Stone seems to me to be a crackpot - and apparently there were people at Oxford and elsewhere in England who thought so too. What I read of the article suggests that he's incensed that France or Switzerland would pass laws that would entitle Armenians to begin doing precisely what he also censors Armenians for *not* doing -- and that is to go to international law courts. A bit of a contradiction there, wouldn't you say?
Furthermore, he is at great pains to simply say that the evidence is not at hand. This is quite different from claiming something to be true or false. However, he also says that the Americans at the time could not provide "evidence" -- when in fact we have the diaries and telegrams of eye witnesses from our State Department and its representatives in Turkey at the time, in addition to the Red Cross and international missionary workers who were witnesses. Beyond that we know of the witnesses in the German military who wrote their own dispatches describing what happened. Perhaps the ultraconservative Mr. Stone also thinks that eye witness testimony is not "evidence." I wonder if the bones at Der Zor will constitute any quality of "evidence" for such a person. I qualify him as vicious: he claims the whole of the Armenian diaspora to be shakedown artists: a rather racist perspective, I'd say.
Janine, my reply refers especially to you. How come can you throw stones over everything that is related to Turkey? According to you our universities are like a european kindergarden, right?
Koc University is a four year school; ie no grad program. "Mister" Stone is teaching for one year back in Bilkent I see. That makes him not a full-time prof but rather an adjunct. Not stunning.
Gokalp, if you would actually produce something worth reading, I'd be most happy to discuss it seriously. But the ravings of Professor Stone really are rather hate-filled. Sort of like the way you paint what I write. The problem is once again that the overwhelming scholarship that identifies the events of 1915 as genocide is just ignored by you -- and unfortunately for you it is overwhelmingly the opinion of worldwide genocide scholarship. You just can't handle that fact.
PS Gokalp, don't feel too badly.
If we were discussing car emissions - and the overwhelming body of scientific research in academia claimed those emissions to be high, and you produced one person at a remote school out of the top academic circles of the world, financed by the Automobile Manufacturers, who hash a reputation as a bit of a crackpot for his personal ultraconservative political views - then I would dismiss him just the same for the issue. Especially when the one article you quote just seems like someone who is a paid consultant for a client who wants to avoid guilty verdicts in lawsuits where they have now become liable.
With apology to our readers only I have one word to that Vasak Berdos. who claims to be the leader of Armenian community Sir you are an ... shut up or go to hell you are not representative of any single Armenian in the world
Every Turkish writer who writes at this side
should analyze his DNA and give as the result of analysis
what sort of genes he carries (Turkish, Armenian, Seljuk genes ....etc)
and keep us uptodate...!
Why would Israel be helping Azerbaijan?
To: AB – You cannot read posts without smiling and I cannot have peace of mind without grieving for millions of massacred and deported, whose souls are still awaiting repentance. What to do? After reading the Turks’ comments in this site, I tend to think that they’re essentially trying to oppose the Armenians’ arguments, avoid responsibility for their forefathers’ criminal deeds, and whitewash their government’s crimes. Do you really share our pain? Do you understand where the pain is coming? Do you understand who inflicted the pain and by means of what atrocious crime? I’m not sure… In fact, I’m not sure at all, because in most of the comments I see attempts to deny that genocide happened, but not repentance.
No, AB, I haven’t seen any single comment in this Forum (I admit it might have slipped my attention) in which a Turk has apologized for the genocide of ethnic Armenians in the Ottoman Empire commited by the Turkish government. If you find an apology containing all such apologetic words, do please post it for my attention.
As for racial hatred, it’s below Armenians. You should have perhaps read here how grateful Armenians are for those ordinary Turks who saved them form the Ottoman government-executed mass annihilation. In every country of the world where deported or barely survived Armenians ended up living as Diaspora after the Genocide, they have become grateful and contributed to the development of those countries immensely. Ask your fellow Muslim Arabs or Iranians and see if they don’t respect their Armenian co-citizens. It is the Turkish government’s deliberate denial policy, and not racial hatred towards the Turks, that aggravates most of the Armenians. Many of us believe that nothing has changed after 1915-1921: the same denialist, unapologetic government; the same heavy lobbying efforts internationally against resolutions recognizing the Genocide; the same persecutions against those who speak out the truth about the Genocide; the same threats to deport Armenians; the same distortion of the historical facts; the same widespread misinformation campaign in the Turkish schools as evidenced by the recent distribution of over 10 mln falsified DVDs showing how ‘Armenians killed pitiable Turks’; and so on and so forth…
I don’t think I need to win your people’s sympathy for opinions and policies to change in your society. That’s not my prerogative. Even your own citizens cannot do it because of the most illiberal Article 301 of the Penal Code that hangs over your people’s heads as Damoclean sword. Recall what happened to Hrant Dink, as well as dozens of other Turkish intellectuals and don’t try to sell me that crap about winning your people’s sympathy. Have you created any legal mechanisms for that? Hell no… By the way, those intellectuals who spoke out loud were INDIVIDUALS first and foremost, not a race. Some of them even Nobel Prize laureates… And we all know how your government treated them. So don’t you think that it may be your own government that hates you as a race?
Janine
I will not write anything but came back to correct your lie.
Here is Koc Universities Graduate programs in Science and Engineering.
http://www.ku.edu.tr/ku/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1033&Itemid=2191
If you search more you will find other departments too.
As I said earlier, think before you write!
so, what is the answer folks? are Armenians going to angry forever? are you all so psychologically damaged that you cannot get over this? this is not the answer. if it is, go see a shrink. do you think the Young Turks were the only ones to ever genocide Armenians in the course of history? look back into time, and you will probably hate everyone on every side...because they ALL caused great pain and hardship to Armenians, including the Greeks, the Germans, the Mongols, the Mamluks, etc. where does it stop? or, are we the angriest people in the world? time for a change in attitude? it really becomes a tiring old song....
so Takuhi, 900 years later, and you are still upset that Armenians enabled and helped the Seljuks to take Asia Minor from the Greeks, whom they hated so much? the Seljuks did not take Anatolia by themselves...there were not enough of them, and several hundred years of Byzantine rule was not all that wonderful for Armenians, either. then, just as now, armenians were too weak, too divided by their ishkhans and too few to resist anyone. that's just history. time moves on.
Janine,
How you can still show your face after being so completely beaten is remarkable! You're so wrong on so many levels, yet you're actions exemplify what all dashnaks do on a daily basis! I believe the word that best describes this would be SHAMELESS!!
To the censorship section,
I see that you've once again censored and deleted my posts! Way to go cowards!!! Boy, the fear of the truth coming out must cost you a small fortune in underware cleaning and sales, huh!!!
AB,
Repel Provision 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, and I could come over securely to win your people’s sympathy re: recognition of the genocide. I somehow feel when the stupid Provision is lifted many millions will reveal their true non-Turkic, non-Muslim identity and many more other millions of people will sympathize with the Armenians without a fear of being shot, deported, or persecuted.
Regards.
To: Michael, M.
Excellent write up Michael. I am a bit concerned that perhaps your writing may help the Azeris to gain intelligence? On the othe hand maybe I should have more confidence in the descendents of the Tribes of Nairi. After all we have never been afraid and in the 21 century we should be braver and more determined than ever? You are right...people who believe in truth and justice have more reasons to be braver. Mercenaries are just that. Thay have no real reason to fight & die.
Thanks for taking the time explaining strategy!
G
I was shocked to my ear..
Someone who is Armenian with Armenian blood running through his veins to stand up and only only defend that Erdogan but to say that Genocide is no matter to discuss now that 100 years has passed is a low life, spineless, brainwashed Turk... I don't distinguish him after his comments from any Turk who speaks arrogance, ignorance and denial.. He is one them.. even his last name is Turkish..I am ashamed of him.. I am embarassed to call him Armenian..
SHAME ON YUO BEDROS..SHAME SHAME SHAME...
Gayane
Just saw this news in Haberturk. Poor fellow, he may be the next Hrant Dink:
"Turkish lawyer Bendal Celil Ezman appealed to the Turkish court, demanding the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, condemnation of Talat Pasha and renaming of streets with the latter’s name. Haberturk reports, that the lawyer participated in a signature-gathering “Forgive us, Armenians” campaign. He insisted that in 1915 Armenians fell victims to the planned pogroms. The lawyer pointed out that he was denied to be given the documents on the trials held in 1918 and 1922, when those responsible for displacing Armenians in April and May 1915 were found guilty. “Turkey should face its history. It is the first time Turkey hears such a case,” he said.
As an Armenian christian, I feel the comments about the church's inactivity are poignant when it comes to the free hand the oligarchs have in Armenia. Ive been waiting a long time for my church to become proactive for our christian beliefs. I understand the church's influence was minimal during Soviet times but now? The civilian population had gripes against the church before the republic and have no reason to change their mind even now in the 21st century, Truly a sad commentary. Doesn't Etchmiadzin realize what the people expect from them? Why must comfort have to come from a proxy?
Gokalp:
Your link doesn't work, you who tell us to "think." I believe it requires a login.
What I read online was that it was a four year university. There is not much information on its own website. Perhaps what I read was wrong. But if you need to continue to insult, then you are only showing how shallow you are.
As I said, the entire body of genocide scholarship in the world has overwhelmingly weighed in on this subject. I am not impressed with the one person you cite nor his academic history, and especially the article you cited and the way it was written. It is not scholarly at all. It is written in inflammatory casual language not suitable for academic papers. I suggest you go over the list of publications of members of the International Association of Genocide Scholars for academic quality if you are not able to differentiate that from the article by Stone you linked here.
As for being "beaten" -- I'm afraid you fellows simply don't know what the full body of scholarship has already decided on this issue. It is your side that has been beaten in academia.
Perhaps I should add that I went to a top ten university in the US. My standards may be different from yours, Gokalp and Robert. The link works from this site, it didn't when I clicked on the email I received. So, they do list grad programs. It still cannot compete with scholars at top schools relevant to the subject we are discussing (nor, I would imagine, in Engineering, philsophy, etc) as far as academic rank is concerned.
Now, for you who advise others to think and call others shameless: Why don't you think yourselves? How many Armenians are left in Eastern Anatolia? How many Turks are there? Oh, can you compute those kind of statistics? Even in Turkey, the census statistics have finally been published recently: disappearance of approximately 1.5 million people of one ethnic group. That is genocide, not war. Men, women and children. Think.
PS I looked up Kos University at Wikipedia and saw its list of top professors. I am even less impressed than before. I realize you are in Turkey and that is what you have to compare to. However, we are not talking about a worldwide pool of research; the paper you note cannot compare to the top levels of that in terms of scholarship. What is clear to everyone here is how little you folks can present that shows either a willingness to dialogue or to accept scholarship on the issue. And we're all familiar with your hatred already, even before I started posting on this article.
By the way, Robert and Gokalp, why don't you answer this question:
How can a country that criminalizes people who say the events of 1915 constitute genocide possibly have a level of academic freedom necessary for proper scholarship on the subject of genocide? The conditions for proper academic research don't even exist on this subject in Turkey!!
THINK about it.
Karekin –
Your logic is incomprehensible, I’m sorry to say. Every genocide- or other calamity-stricken nation is psycologically and morally damaged, didn’t you know? Doesn’t it seem natural to you? If it doesn’t, it means your family hasn’t been affected by the horrors of the Turkish mistreatment and, in sharp contrast to millions of other massacred or deported Armenians, enjoyed perfect life in Turkey… Just let readers know, we’ll understand. Of course, the Armenians can get over this, but don’t you think that it’s hard to do for obvious reasons because your exterminator nations denies their crime and avoids extending apologies to the victim-nation?
I’ m trying to understand what is it that annoys you in Armenians’ behavior in response to Turkish denialist stance? What do you essentially want Armenians to do? To erase their genetic memory? To erase their historical memory? To erase their demographic, civilizational memory? What kind of a crap are you saying about other nations’ massacring Armenians in the course of the history? Do you know anything that happened of THAT magnitude in our history? Give me an example. Even if I trust your sophisticated historical knowledge and admit that calamity of such magnitude had happened to Armenians before, is it so hard for you to understand that whatever could have happened before, might have happened in prehistoric, feudal, medieval times. We are talking about the 20th century, dude, wake up! We’re talking about the era where the ‘modern,’ as they call it, Turkish state was about to be formed. Is perpetrating a genocide and deprivation of the whole historical homeland is considered an accepted behavior of a modern, civilized nation in the 20th century, that Turks claim themselves to be? What’s wrong with you, bro? Don’t you mix invasions, wars, interethnic, interracial, interreligious clashes with a targeted deliberate annihilation of an ancient civilization. I do hope you’re not psychologically damaged not to appreciate the difference. Jesus Christ…
Where does it stop, you ask? I’ll tell ya. Wherever the Turkish government extends an apology to all Armenians for the genocide committed by the Ottoman government. Happy now?
To Karekin and Taghui,
A fantasy I sometimes have is for the entire Turkish population to be genetically tested (say for insurance reasons - EU and all of that) in the near future and they find out, to their dismay, that they are actually Armenian. Then, all that would have to happen ...LOL... is for the name of the country to change from Turkey to Armenia and hey ... problem solved. Now would'nt that be perfect justice.
Okay, back to reality. Do either of you know much about the 'Hidden Armenians' of Turkey? I've heard all manner of rumors, from secret villages where most speek Armenian (this came from a friend of mine who actually experienced this) to millions of people with Armenian grandparents. Again, I stress this as rumors but as they say, where there is smoke, there is fire.
Perhaps you have already seen this, but a really great, and I should say tragic, description of Armenia during the Seljuk and Mongol periods (by Robert Bedrosian) can be found at http://rbedrosian.com/asmp1.htm
Ditto that Manooshag.. Well Said..
I would like to add that I will be sharing this will all of my friends.. I did not know that our own person was the mastermind behind this medical genious...
Thank you for that and let the world know that Armenians are definintely one of the smartest if not THE smartest people on earth.. I am very proud of you..
Gayane
Janine
The link works very well. I tested before i posted and you can see the lost of the graduate and post graduate programs there.
You are the one who is telling us how an academic artical or institution should be and it is you who is using "wikipedia" as a guide. Congratulations! A webpage that can be changed by anybody and is not updated regularly. Instead of this way try to search on their website, dont worry it will not take so much time.
Dr Deranian,
I would not be surprised as well if all Turks got tested and turned out to be part ARmenian or 100% Armenian.. I mean come on.. it is a very high possibility.. The ugly Turks took and kidnapped and bought the most beautiful Armenian women... They should thank us for beautifying their race otherwise they would have been hidious to look at.. not only from inside but outside too...sorry.. that is my anger speaks out.. mixed with my passion for my country and bloodline.
However, what I wanted to say is that I also heard about the "Hidden" Armenians.. I dont' remember if I saw this on TV, or read about it...but Turkey has alot of Turks who are actually Armenians..however, they can't reveal their identity or else the govt will either hurt them or do things to cause even more destruction for them.... I think this was a program on TV, The history channel.. It was heartbreaking to watch the film... to see that our comrades are hiding behind this ugly Turkish identity to survive in Turkey.. Just heartbreaking...
Gayane
Thank you all above for your great comments. Bedros, listen Armenians Genocide happened and stop being a Devil! Don't worry you'll day will come too and kill you for being an Armenian. I think his not Armenian and if he is then his scared to be shot like Hrant Dink. He can't go against 75 million Turks and fight for what's left. Secondly, Turkey is Armenia and they have all the right to live there. This is visible life but we all should be scared form invisible, stay in faith my fellow Armenians and don't lose hope.
I would, very much like to accept the invitation of Mr Bedros Sirinian (if he's truly an Armenian), to visit the homes of my grandparents in Ourfa, Adana, Svaz...where their families were slaughtered and their properties confiscated by the turks, when he's able to evacuate those properties and return them to their rightful owners, and compensate for the lives lost and the ruthless terror poured upon the innocent victims. The Armenians in Turkey today are only a shadow of their original representation. I would very much like to hear his explanation of why 1 to 2 million Armenians should suddenly decide to march to unknown countries through a grueling desert. The turkish propaganda machine is now being maintained by some Armenians....Pathetic.
Yes, I've advocated for the Turkish govt to issue a blanket apology to all Armenians worldwide, asap. And yes, if you were wondering, both my grandparents families and their properties disappeared in 1915. However, time moves on and the idea of carrying around anger for many generations is a bit odd to me. In a strange twist, we all know that most Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey and are probably thankful they're not there now. Perhaps they should thank Talaat Pasha for that. Yes, 1915 onward were truly horrible, horrific years....no question about it and Armenians are owed an apology, at the least, but I would like to see a civil discussion without anger or hatred, which are both unnecessary and very unproductive.
Yes, David...I've heard quite a bit about the hidden Armenians. During a recent trip to Turkey, I was told that both Husenig and Palu are 'full of Armenian families'. Now, these people have changed their names and converted, but at their root, they are Armenians...descendants of people who returned in the 1920s, and recovered their homes in exchange for the name/religion change. I was amazed to hear this, but apparently it's true...quite a few people returned after WWI and blended into the landscape and forgotten by most of the diaspora.
I have been in Hrant Dinks funeral and protests against the bloody murder because i really loved him as a person and as a journalist, I still read AGOS newspaper keeping a yearly membership.
I dont believe what i hear without knowing that there is evidence so dont call me brainwashed because of carrying Turkish blood. What i saw and found on this page is extremly scary, the comments of Armenians are sometimes racist, sometimes derogatory.
That was not the way mister Dink used to be or wanted you guys to be.
How much money was Mr. X-oglu paid to do this? Sad, pathetic people in a sad pathetic country that is in so much denial! How threatened are they by the truth?
Gokalp -- still doesn't change my mind. Why don't you try some of that dialogue you talk about that is pertinent to the subject? Like I said before, denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Just what exactly is so threatening about accepting this fact? I think that's the best thing for us to dialogue about. What would change in your life if killing 1.5 men, women and children deliberately is genocide?
Hi Michael, you are not a military expert, are you? It looks like you are a journalist, and a good one! Because this kind of analysis require years in military academy and experience of Army General:-)
Former first Foreign Minister of Armenia summarize quite well Turkish positon form Prime Minister to Foreign Minister and live two alternatives...either to put all on the table or to establish diplomatic relation then try to solve our problems. He also to be commended suggesting that diasporas and Armenia shall find form of process and structure in order to coordianate peoples input into collective policy in different spheres.
Hello Everyone:
Not sure? but I think Armenian Weekly has decided that I am a traitor as I am not getting e-mail recently so I am not uptodate with all your passionate debate. But you are doing a great job!!! I see you are all alive and well and that makes me happy :)
Now...I saw the "Hidden Armenians" documentary on www.france24.com you may have to search withing France24. Hope you can find it....be prepared for tears. Good thing God promises that, at the end, every one of our tears will be wiped away (Book of Revevelation).
G
Tyranny Lasts!
Never
Every Man is born
To do good things in life
We’re born to serve humanity
Not nationality
Not race
Nor Religion
We are humans from many genes
We are never pure
How much we roarfully pray
After all the earth is flat
At end we'll end flat,
For others,
Step on us.
This is a reality.
Tyranny
Never lasts
Sylva-MD-Poetry
“My Stanzas Didn't Arise From Empty Veins!”
All Turks should analyze their DNAs
To know their origin
And stop fighting against known genocide.
Der Zor Bedouins can teach them better...
As they sow with their eyes.
What Turks did for pregnant woman
How they slashed their wombs with their scimitars
To know the unsown sex
How they raped and killed beautiful Armenian girls.
The stories are endless
No human can wipe it out.
“My Stanzas Didn't Arise From An Empty Veins!”
If I will be called a murderer just because of where I was born, I'd rather really kill someone...
Move on guys...
TO SOULS OF DEYR ZOR,
MY COMMENTS ON SMILING AFTER READING THE COMMENTS OF URFACI WAS IN RELATION TO HOW BRAINWASHED HE IS AND WAS NEVER IN RELATION TO 1915 EVENTS. IF YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS MY INTENTION WAS TO MAKE FUN OF 1915 EVENTS I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.
MY POINT IS VERY SIMPLE:
-AS A HALF ARMENIAN HALF LEBANESE ORIGIN TURKISH CITIZEN I HAVE NEVER FELT AN ALIEN IN TURKEY. ANY CLAIMS ON THIS SITE FROM ARMENIANS STATING THAT ARMENIANS IN TURKEY ARE OPRESSED AND ARE BEING MISTREATED IS WRONG.
-TURKISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET (AND THE COMMENTATORS ON THIS SITE) HAVE NOT KILLED YOUR/MY ANCESTORS.
-THEY DO NOT DESERVE THE INSULTS THEY ARE GETTING FROM SOME OF THE COMMENTATORS OF THIS SITE (STUPID, IMBECILE, CRUEL, UGLY AND GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE)
-REGARDING 1915 EVENTS, I PERSONALY HAVE MY OWN OPINION ON THEM AND I BELIEVE EVERYTHING HAS A REASON TO HAPPEN. AND PLEASE DON'T SAY THAT IT HAPPENED BECAUSE ARMENIANS WERE SMARTER THAN THE TURKS (THIS IS BRAINWASHED ARMENIAN TALK), BECAUSE SUCH ARGUMENTS ARE RIDICULOUS.
-SOME OF TURKISH COMMENTATOR HAVE STATED THAT THEIR GRAND PARENTS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS AND I AM SURE THAT THIS ALSO HAPPENED. SURELY A FEW THOUSANDS TURKS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS.
-ON HRANT DINK: HE WAS AN ARMENIAN NEWSPAPER WRITER THAT NOBODY KNEW UNTIL HE GOT MURDERED. ONCE HE WAS MURDERED HE BECAME A REFERENCE SUBJECT ON HOW SAVAGE TURKS CAN BE. I PERSONALY SEE THE MATTER ON A DIFFERENT ANGLE. I CAN'T ERASE FROM MY HEAD HIS FUNERALS WHERE 100.000 TURKS WALKED SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE DINK FAMILY. THIS IS THE SYMBOL I LIKE TO REMEMBER RATHER THAN HIS MURDER.
-ON HIS MURDERER: SOME HAVE STATED IN THIS SITE THAT HIS MURDERER WAS STILL AT LARGE. THIS IS WRONG, HIS MURDERER IS CURRENTLY IN JAIL ON A LIFE IMPRISONNEMENT SENTENCE FOR MURDERING HRANT DINK. THERE ARE SOME SPECULATIONS IN TURKEY THAT HE WAS ONLY PULLING THE TRIGGER AND THAT SOME ULTRANATIONALIST GROUPS HAVE SPONSORED HIM, BUT THIS IS YET TO BE PROVEN.
-REGARDING PROVISION 301 OF THE TURKISH PENAL CODE (ADANA PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABT MATTERS YOU DO NOT KNOW): I AM NOT A LAWYER OR AN EXPERT BUT THIS ARTICLE STATES THAT INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO 3 YEARS OF PRISON.THE SAME LAW ALSO STATES THAT CRITICISING ACTION OR POLICY OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS NOT PUNISHABLE.
-IT IS INDEED TRUE THAT SOME COURT CASE WERE UNDERTAKEN BY PROSECUTORS AGAINST WRITER, LAWYER ETC..IN EACH INSTANCE THE JUDGES DECISIONS WERE THAT IT WAS FALLING UNDER "CRITICIZING" AND NOT "INSULTING". ORHAN PAMUK THAT YOU CITE AS EXEMPLE WAS NEVER FOUND GUILTY UNDER 301 FOR INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY.
-NOW TAKING THIS ARTICLE 301 AND TURNING IT AND PRESENTING IT IN A WAY THAT IT LIMITS THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN TURKEY IS A DISTORTION.
-WHEN YOU STATE THAT EVERY TURK'S INTENTION ON THIS SITE IS TO DENY THE FACTS, SORRY I TOTALLY DIAGREE WITH YOU. TO DENY MEANS TO NOT ACCEPT SOMETHING YOU KNOW. THE TURKISH COMMENTATORS OPINION IS THAT SUCH EVENTS DID NOT OCCUR IN THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE DESCRIBING.
THIS IS WHY DIALOGUE WILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THE FUTURE OF ARMENIAN AND TURKISH PEOPLE. THEY WILL SHARE THEIR VERSIONS OF THE FACTS AD EVENTUALLY THE TRUTH WILL TRIUMPH.
Hye, it is my hope that in all these exemplary discussions it has come forth that today, and as it shall have been in all these years - that the overwhelming issue is the word Genocide. When after the first Genocide of the 20th century, the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation was not faced and justice not pursued by the civilized nations of the world then all the Genocides that followed, all the murders, kidnappings, tortures of the most heinous contrived by the Ottoman mentality (babies slaughtered, women violated, men all faced decimation, kidnappings, and the rest of the population forced to march to the deserts until their death. Survivors, with memories of their family losses, with memories of Genocide their Christian nation were scattered to the civilized nations of the world but to come together and pursue the Armenian Cause - Hai Tahd. Turks assumed they had finished the Armenians - thus taking the Armenian lands as their own, taking all the refinements and culture of the Armenians as their own - for these descendents of the hordes who came down from the Asian mountains had not any of their own. Turks needed a homeland, culture and chose to eliminate the Armenians from Armenia, and called it a Turkey. To this day, the Ottoman mentality exists against not only the Armenians, but the Greeks, the Assyrians, the Kurds, and more. Thus the Genocide of the Armenian nation has not yet ended... the Armenian Genocide began in the 19th century and continues today, exists even now into 2010.
Sadly, Genocides have not been eliminated by the civilized societies of the world - today, 2010, Darfurians suffer a Genocide for years! Worse yet, the Sudanese perpetrators are taking the stance that they never committed a Genocide of the Darfurians! And why not? The Turks even say that Muslims donot commit any Genocides! The Turks have 'gotten away' with their murders, tortures, and worse for nearly 100 years - so too, why not shall the Sudanese also not 'get away with murders' of Darfurians - ala a Turkey!
Seems the world's civilized peoples continue to tolerate such as the Turkish and Sudanese leaderships actions - hence the issue at hand over all these years is still with the civilized nations - who still ignore ending the cycle of GENOCIDES. Animals kill only for food. The Genocide perpetrators slaughter, torture and worse - their own kind - humans. Even more, to unarmed, innocents lead to their slaughter and leave the survivors with vile memories - never to be forgotten!
Hence, Turkey and the Sudanese and all the perpetrators of the Genocides of the 20th century are the 'winners' and all the victims, the innocents, men, women, children, elderly, all those lives, are the 'losers' - in a world who will not end the cycle of Genocides. It appears still today, humanity has not yet acquired the 'guts' it shall take for any leaderships in civilized nations to take on the bullies who are perpetrators of any Genocide... Politics and more are the issues. Unbelivably, morality, humanity, appear to be lost in our world. Thus, Genocides shall continue... Sadly. And yet, whenever, wherever, whomever shall perpetrate another Genocide, unopposed, whether they be a foe or an 'ally' - but who shall next be the victims of the next of yet another unopposed Genocide - for one is waiting to happen, and why not? Turkey and now Sudan, deny their Genocides before all the world - lying to the world, to the world who does nothing to end the cycle of ANY Gencides!
Murders, rapes, tortures, child molestation and more are not 'allowed' to be pursued in all civilized nations - but yet, mass murders, rapes, tortures all these civilized nations do 'allow' when the issue is labeled - Genocides.
Hence the perpetrators win - thus all humanity, the world over are the losers! Manooshag
Karekin, Armenians did have clashes and tensions with Byzantine (I assume you mean this Empire by incorrectly using the proper noun ‘Greeks’), and several hundred years of the Byzantine rule was, indeed, not that wonderful, but Armenians were never slaughtered en masse as during the Seljuk-Turkish-Muslim years. Do you appreciate the difference? At all? And when the Seljuk hordes invaded Asia Minor Armenians didn’t ‘enable’ and ‘helped’ them. As almost always in their history, Armenians became sandwiched between the two powers and had to maneuver between them to save their statehood and identity. And, no, your statement that there were not enough Seljuks to take Asia Minor (Anatolia is a newest Turkish invention, BTW, there has never been such a toponym in history, try to avoid using it, it insults the historians) is dead wrong. Seljuks came in in hordes, innumerable nomadic tribes… Yes, that’s our history, and I’m proud to have a multi-millennia history. And I know that a nation cannot move on without regard to what had happened in its history. But if you’d like to move on alone with no roots, no historical lessons to consider, no historical lessons learnt, do move on. I should like to see how far you’ll go without this invaluable historical baggage…
To Karekin:
First of all, Armenians are not obsessed with an ‘idea of carrying around anger for many generations’ that is odd to you. Your judgments are so skewed! Armenians are angered by the continuous policy of denial that all consecutive Turkish governments starting 1923 onwards have adopted and aggressively carry on both domestically and in the international arena. Do you get the difference?
Second, what’s this strange prophecy of yours: ‘In a strange twist, we all know that most Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey and are probably thankful they’re not there now.” If you were referring to you personally, I’d understand it. But do you posses that prophetic capability, or a crystal ball to gaze into, to affirm that ‘Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey?’ For you, perhaps. But many of my friends and I sometimes ask ourselves: ‘why shouldn’t my children have been raised and lived in their historical homeland, but on the remote Atlantic shores?’ Don’t you think that the very notion of ‘better lives’ is loose and controversial at best? If that ‘better life’ is given to me at the expense of my ancestors’ lands and the whole massacred and destroyed civilization, then hell no, I don’t want such a ‘better life.’ Had Armenians not been massacred, they’d retain the most valuable thing that a ‘better life’ abroad: their Homeland. I’m sorry for you, Karekin. I really am. As for your outrageous phrase ‘perhaps Armenians should thank Talaat Pasha for that,’ what can I say, and I’m sorry to do this, but you either suffer from soullessness and indifferentism or are a mind-tilter just like many of Turks posting comments here, or are a Turk in disguise. If you think Turks who treated you better than anyone else in the world, are not angry and hateful, then let them accept guilt and repent, and you’ll see how discussions will gradually become productive and anger-free.
You annoy me with your freaked views, please don’t reply or if you do, consider this as my last response to you…
A
To: Burak Can,
Do all Turks have a serious reading comprehension problem? Noone in this site called you personally ‘a murderer just because of where you were born.’ Murderers were your forefathers, as it’s been internationally recognized and increasingly accepted by the growing number of nations and organizations. And denialists of the crime were all consecutive Turkish governments. Do you see anything in these words that insults YOU personally?
As for ‘I’d rather really kill someone…’, well, I don’t know to what extent you value other human being’s life, but your forefathers: butchers of Bloody Sultan Hamid and Devil’s advocates Young Turks certainly did kill, and massively so. Armenians know this wa-a-a-y too well…
Move on guys, admit the guilt of your forefathers, repent for their crime of slaughtering and destroying the whole civilization of Armenians, and apologize to them. Why can’t you do this if you consider yourselves the most merciful people on Earth who could never mass murder other human beings? Move on, do it…
Mustafa,
I certainly appreciate your admiring words for the Turk-assassinated Hrant Dink.
From my readings of these posts I believe commentators don’t typify Turkish visitors as ‘brainwashed’ because, as you wrongly attest, ‘of carrying Turkish blood.’ It is your comments that leave an impression that what the Turks have studied at schools and learnt from their media might have made them brainwashed. One thing is crystal clear: what you studied at schools and learnt from the media is very different from what the rest of the world knows, especially when it comes to the issue of the Armenian Genocide.
You want evidence to believe that this crime against humanity happened and with the hands of your grandfathers? Go to your own National Archives and read the Verdict (as well as all attached telegrams and dépêches) that your own Military Tribunal has issued in 1918, and see with your own eyes that Young Turk butchers, devil’s advocates Tallat, Enver, and Jemal have been announced guilty for mass annihilation of the Ottoman Armenian subjects. Note, Mustafa, I’m not referring you to the Armenian sources or repositories, nor to a massive evidence of the genocide of Armenians currently piled in the voluminous archives or repositories of the UK, the US, France, Germany, Austria, Russia, Greece, and other European capitals.
As for what you found on these pages, just imagine how re-e-e-ally scary it should have been fro the millions of burnt and buried alive, mutilated, raped, let starve to death, and deported Armenian men, women, children, and elders.
Lastly, Armenians have problems with your denialist governments and not with the nation of Turkey. Ask your fellow Muslims: Arabs or Iranians where there are large Aremnian Diaspora as a result of the Genocide in Turkey, as to what they think about their Armenian co-citizens. See if any of those Muslim nations could even dare compare us with racists…
Who do you think who is more racist: a Turkish government that exterminated the whole Armenian race or Armenian commentators here who accuse the Turkish government of denying this fact and avoiding repenting and apologizing? Think for a second…
Apres Sylva jan.. your poems are very beautiful and touching.. it portrays the pain and anger and sadness what our people went through..
You are a great writer...
Gayane
Gary,
I searched that website but I could not locate the Hidden Armenians...
I did google search and there is a documentary on YouTube but I can't check it from work. .it is restricted.. It is called Turkey's Hidden Armenians.. Not sure if this is the same clip I saw in the past..
Let me know what do you think.. I will check it later tonight..
Gayane
Sayin ( Mr )Armenian Fedayi:
My English might not be as good as yours and may be a typo. Respect to you on that..
Taner Akcam is a hero for you but NOT to me and the Turks. He is a hero to you because he defends something falsely throw at the Turks. 1000 Years nothing happens but Turks decided to kill all Armenians in 5 years. Why nothing happened in Istanbul then.. As US government relocated Japanese in WWII from california to NJ , Turks did the same in 1915 relocated the Armenians to turkish lands in Syria and other parts of the Empire as Armenians took the arms and wore Brit, russian,french and italian army uniforms and invaded and killed innocent Villagers.
relocating its citizens from one part to next for a governemt is only natural during war times .
New York once called New Amsterdam..!!!! change it now....
If anyone comes alone says I am Armenian or something else in Turkey they freeely say it . do not worry about that..
Karabagh name is tried to be changed. Anadolu is Turkish and will stay that way.
Armenians were never the majority in any city in the whole history. I understand being and living outside of your home. Please go back to Erivan or Gumru in Armenia... You are homesick my dear Armenian friend.....
Kurt, Istanbul
Artashes:
Thank you for clarifying that Armenians are orginated in Northern India and travelled to Anatolia to relocate.
So, people all moved around like anyone else, Today's USA. Who inhabited Brazil, America, Argentina before?
Thank you again for the clarificatons.. it is very important
It seems you censured my comment. Well !
Do you think that our ancestors haven't enough been quaking in front of all these bloody turkish invaders? A thousand years later, look where we are, just look and mesure !
Sometimes be inspired by those who are settling territories in violation of so many Resolutions of the U.N. : be virile!
Looking forward to read the story...
Gayane
Thank you Mr. Sassounian for the article.
I agree whole heartedly that Armenians should remain united and hit Turkey and anyone that tries to stop us with one BIG fist instead of millions of small fists...
Only by united we will defeat the enemy and get our Armenia back as well as get the Armenian Genocide recognized.
I will be among those who will fight till the end...
God Bless us and hope that April 24th will be the day that many more countries recognize and pass as the day of the first Genocide of the 20th Century...
Gayane
I have a very very bad news to Turks..
Diaspora will take you to hell... If you think Diaspora will go away.. THINK AGAIN... you will never get rid of us.. it will be the Diaspora that Turkey will kneel in front of and ask for forgiveness... Because of the Genocide, million upon million of Armenians scattered all over the world.. Turkey will never be free of Diaspora and it scares them dearly.. and I am glad it does.. they should be scared......
Thank you for the article Dr. Astarjian.. Very interesting and entertaining....
Gayane
Thank you Harut for telling it as it is! We know that 'knowing the truth, set us free'
I believe 24 April 2010 will send the loudest message ever! Cowards can run but can't hide! And their time for running is coming to an end!
G
One of the clearest, honest, and concise description of the real root of the Armenian Genocide, the Janissaries, the 600 year subjugation via direct plunder, taxation of goods and people, manipulation of merchant classes, and overall divide and conquer strategy. The Turks viewed the Armenians as second class citizens not because of the religion (i.e. they allied with Christian Germany in WWI and took orders from them) but because they conquered Armenia and therefore, it has been a master-servant relationship in their eyes 600 years ago, 400 years ago, 200 years ago, 95 years ago, 20 years ago, and 1 day ago. You might say kind things to your servant when he performs well, but he is not your equal and he is 'less' than you. Until that perception is broken, nothing will change except the names of the leaders.
Darwin/Garo:
well said. The issues of the role of the Church as well as the room for collective action on the side of Diaspora and Armenia (which will incorporate new concepts and factor in new paradigms) are discussed in full detail in Policy Forum Armenia's (PFA) Diaspora Report issued recently (downloadable from: www.pf-armenia.org). The presentation of the Report was--in addition to Mr. Hovannisian's historic speech--one of the highlights of PFA's Diaspora Forum that took place on February 28-March 2, 2010 in Washington. We would welcome you comments on the Report and other presentations made during the Forum (all available on PFA's website).
David Grigorian
Co-Founder, Senior Fellow
Policy Forum Armenia
exrelations@pf-armenia.org
so wait...has article 301 been repealed?
I wonder if we could be able to hold a conference in Yerevan that the Turkish thesis is presented.
Dont tell me Turkey bans on freedom of thoughts. Turkey is more civilized than you think. But, your extremely biased minds keep you from seeing it.
We need to understand that Hrant Dink was so right . Turkish people will start to accept the reality of genocide. We do not need other countries acceptance. That kind of thinking is exteremly naive and primitive. Hrant had the right vision for that. Follow his path, that is the real solution.
so the term "genocide" was first pronounced by Raphael Lemkin in 1944...and was acknowledged by the UN in 1948.....
noone really puts so much emphasis on stalin's famine (7 million deaths) in 1932-33, or assyrian deaths in 1914-20....or mass killings of the native americans well before 1900s....or the massmurders of aborigins in australia in 1800s.....
there is only one truth...we are inhabitants of a planet that is plagued by WAR....and when at war, people die....1 or 1000....labelling wars as genocides will only help countries sue one another and cause hostility....and this is just what politics is all about....
I am absolutely astounded to learn of this planned conference, and the topics that are planned -- I can hardly believe it! I never thought I would live to see the day that such a topic would openly be discussed in Turkey. The second coming has arrived!
To Kurt,
First off, glad you are at least engaging discussion. Now we could go through the history till the end of the world, and believe me, there's probably lots of folks here on this post that are going to do this. I will leave that to them. Instead I'm going to state just a couple of points and then ask you a question. Fare enough?
Question 1: If as you say a genocide against Armenians did not occur, then what happened to all the Armenians? Even Turkish sources will agree that there were very significant numbers of Armenians (millions) in eastern Anatolia. Now that region is officially devoid of Armenians. What happened?
Question 2: How is it that the vast (and I mean like 99 %) number of world scholars call what happened in 1915 a genocide, and yet the Turkish government says there was not? Is it really possible that the entire world is wrong and the Turkish government is right?
I ask these questions Kurt because I have met some very nice and very intelligent Turks. Why on earth would you defend a position (that there was not a Genocide) when so much evidence points to the contrary? It's no shame to admit this. Rather it honors you to tell the truth under difficult circumstances. So many countries have had similar incidents in their history.
The point here is, that denying the Armenian Genocide has got to be such a tremendous weight on the shoulders of Turks. Why do you want such a burden? Such denial only hardens world public opinion against Turkey to the point that in the very near future, Turkey will become a joke amongst nations.
I say this Kurt, not to offend you, but rather to ask you to embrace what's good about the Turkish culture. A personal example comes to mind. During the 1895 massacres of Armenians, my family was hidden by a Turkish family, likely at risk to their own lives. Such people are real heroes. Why not embrace such Turkish heroes, instead of defending those like Talat Pasha, who ruined the Ottoman Empire.
There's a popular American saying that you may have heard, 'the hand writing is on the wall'. Sooner or later, most of the world is going to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Why? Quite simply because it is the TRUTH. Why not embrace that TRUTH now. I won't say it will be easy, but most certainly you will be a better person for it.
To all who have provided info about the hidden Armenians of Turkey, much thanks! I'm looking forward to looking at this.
It's April 1 today (All Fools Day). This is a joke, right?
Hye, or, just another PLOY! Manooshag
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING IF THE SYMPOSIUM IS NOT CANCELLED OR POSTPONED, AFTHER A SHOW OF GOOD FAITH, JUST ON APRIL 24TH?
WHY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN HELD A MONTH OR TWO EARLIER?
FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU...
FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME!
We know there are some very couragious people still toughing it out in Turkey
and May God Bless them for not allowing fear when the cause is rightious.
There are still twenty three days to go, to many changes can happen by that time, I am not yet too optimistic, I always remember that back then, my grandparents were tolled by this government predecessors , that they were being taken to a safer places than their homelands, and we all know very well, where they are all later on end up ,and what happened to them, to their families, relatives and belongings which left behind.
Thank you Dr. Deranian, for explaining things so kindly to Kurt. It's not his fault that Talaat was such a monster like Hitler!
To: Gayane jan,
YouTube may very well have one about the "Hidden Armenians" . I am postive I viewed it on www.france24.com
I am also going to ask my daughter to look you up so I can put a beautiful face to the beautiful very courageous Gayane. By the way...I also read the stories about Gayane & Hripsime and certainly wish you a better life!
G
To Kurt:
As I have said earlier, and with due respect, it is certainly not your fault that the Armenian Genocide took place. You need not deny it either!
As spoken here, and by a multitude of Turkish archival docs., there is overwhelming evidence that the Genocide did occur. You don't like Taner Ackam because he dug this up and he speaks the truth. Hrant died because he spoke the truth!
We also very graciously, confess and are thankful that some Compassionate Turks, Kurds and Arabs chose to protect the persecuted, starving, sick Armenians even at the threat of "having their houses being burnt down', on the spot, and immediately, in the middle of the nigh, if they were caught hiding the Armenians, by the Turkish Gendarme and/or Military! This was the street law at the time.
Let me ask you this? Are you able to read Turkish in the Arabic Alphabet? If not , you are at a distinct disadvantage. You cannot read your own history!
Also, I believe your English is quite good. If we had been allowed to live in our Ancestral Lands, our English may have been weaker than it is. We the descendantof the Genocide victims, had to survive in foreign lands. After all our ancestors spoke Turkish better than Armenian. What do you think of that?
They were Citizens of The Osmanian Empire! Some spoke Turkish only like in the Ankara area in 1915. Some even survived because they changed their names too.
Please, please sir, do not get deceived by misinformation...embrace the truth like Dr. Ackam has done and Dr. Deranian, wrote to you.
Ask yourself this question: If Turks & Armenians lived peacefull side by side in Asia Minor (I prefer to call it Western Armenia because history says so) why are we, 7 million of us, now living in countries like USA, Canada, Australia, France U.K. etc. Why would we not live with our 'friendly neighbours' as we did 1000 years ago? Much of the friendly neighbours got deceived, by regime, in thinking and believing their 'friendly neighbours' were now, all-of-a-sudden the enemy! Thats why.
We live out here because we had no choice...we got kicked out-and-murdered out of our ancestral home. Why? lets not go farther than because Osmanian Turks got kicked out of their conquered lands in Europe. So rather than build their own homes in Western Armenia...the Osmanian Empire chose to exterminate the Armenians to provide for their refugees. It wasn't the fault of the Armenians that Turks got expelled from Europe. Imperialism & conquering is a dangerous game! What goe around...comes around!
If someone kicks me out of my house, do I have the right to kick you out of yours? and claim that it is now mine? This is obviously ridiculous!
Be reasonable...think before you just speak anger!
Dear Friends, Happy Fool's Day!
A police officer attempts to stop a car for speeding and the guy gradually increases his speed until he's topping 100 mph. He eventually realizes he can't escape and finally pulls over.
The cop approaches the car and says, "It's been a long day and my tour is almost over, so if you can give me a good excuse for your behavior, I'll let you go."
The guy thinks for a few seconds and then says, "My wife ran away with a cop about a week ago. I thought you might be that officer trying to give her back!"
Happy April Fool's Day!
Hello Gayane:
Did you find the video? It is at YouTube under "Turkey's Hidden Armenians" but it was broadcast by www.france24.com
Did you watch the video on "Hamshen Armenians" also on YouTube.
G
Dear Ahmet, you are absolutely right in certain points; it is probably not so easy to hold a conference in Yerevan because off the trauma lived by the successors of victoms and also beacause such an attempt would remain as a monolog.
Similar conferences are held in Turkey due to several reasons :
1. Because it is the land where the geoside occured;
2. Because it is the land whose ancestors of present holders caused it;
3. Because Turkey is forced to take steps in order to achieve credit torward EU acceptance.
4. Because really there are so many civilized open minded people in Turkey, besides the parrots of official thesis.
5. Regardless a trick of good will show, I sincerely congratulate the symposium committee.
Ahmet,
Of course you can a hold a conference in Yerevan...This week there is the Turkish & Azeri film festival in Yerevan...
A question though Ahmet... what will be the subject of your conference ?How Ottomans committed the Armenian Genocide?
Good article matching with clan hate speeches here. Unfortunately based on fairy tales and fantasies not facts. I can write long list of historical facts but I doubt anybody will care in this site. So enjoy your hate and hope anybody spreads hate get drown in hate... Turkey will kneel to diaspora Armenians? why? how? . Bye the way Mr powerful diaspora Armenian, instead of cursing Armenian government which is located in landlocked geography and living in serious poverty, why don't you rich diaspora armenians help your brothers back home. Is your love of green more important than your brotherhood. Than what kind of brotherhood and help are you talking about? Are you trying to elevate and develop your only country or just trying to satisfy your hatred which will cost to your home country dearly? If the author made any serious financial help to Armenia, please post it, so I can see you are real...if not keep talking, Talk is cheap...
Sireli Dr. Astarjian,
This art. of yours is an excellent piece of work. Thanks.
By the way, are you Haop Guloyan's brother in law?
About moslem Armenians, pls. take notice, that there is a whole Arm. moslem tribe in Syria. I have a special report about them. If interested, pls. let me have your e-mail address, so that I can mail it to you.
Sirov,
G apelian
Recently (2007), I heard a story about a Turkish secretary. She was working in the Turkish embassy in the Arabian Gulf. She was married to an American gentleman and had a daughter. Her child’s name was real Armenian, her friend, being an Armenian kept telling her that her daughter’s name is very Armenian, but she kept denying. Just few hours before moving from Gulf to USA, she told her friend that her daughter’s name is her mother’s; she was afraid to tell any body that she was Armenian in origin, even in the Arabian Gulf, where people are free to speak about their origin and religion and proud to say, "We are Armenians".
This story is published in the Book "A poetic Soul Shined of Genocides"
ISBN: 978-1-4363-5509-4
Also I have heard from a trustful source that 60% of Turkish Ambassadors have an Armenian origin as they are highly educated and are literate in many languages.
Hamshen or Hamshensi:Turks named Armenians by this word; Armenians have been forced to change their name, religion, and ethnicity (Turkification).
Such prosecution started since the eleventh century and continues till today, on Kurds and most minorities living in Turkey.
Recent evidence shows that most Anatolian natives are of Christian origin:
Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, and Arabs (Aramaic-Syriac) of Christ’s time. (Source:
“Turkey’s Hidden Armenians,” France 24, http://www.france24.com/ france24Public/en/ special-reports/ FRANCE-24-Reports/20070504-Reporters-hidden-Armenians.php).
Islam and Turkishness are inseparable. they will be so till the end of the time.
Excellent points.
What concerns me most here are the dogmatic, black & white comments made by those like Artavazd...whom I would ask...have you been to Turkey anytime recently? Do you realize that there are real, live, thinking people living there who don't hate you? Yes, there are many Armenians in Turkey today, living pretty nice lives, much like those who live in Glendale, but perhaps not as spectacular. They want for nothing. Along with them are the poor, hardworking newcomers from Armenia. Have you visited the beautiful Armenian island Kinialada ? Have you seen the incredible architecture built by the Armenian architect Sinan? Guess what? You actually CAN move to Turkey and live there...lots of people do these days, the British, the Dutch, the Danes...even some Americans. My fear is that blind hatred is being used to cover up all kinds of other inadequacies and avoid a realization that history has moved on. Live in the present and enjoy it, for it will not last...your life is temporary...do not spend it being angry. There are amazing places to go and wonderful people to meet, even in Turkey...which is yes...all our homeland. Just because Armenians haven't ruled it for 1000 years doesn't mean you can't go there. Act like a Maya in Mexico, taken over by the Spanish who murdered 95% of them in the process and destoyed their history, and enjoy what is left instead of making a bad thing even worse, because you cannot turn back the clock of history. What's done is done. The milk has been spilled...it cannot be put back in the bottle.
erdogan+gul+davutoglu=talat pasha
Dear Vaneci,
I think the obsession which is widespread in the Armenian diaspora leads to some lack of comprehension in sarcastic comments.
Let me be more straightforward. As much as I hate of my own governmental politics for the complete denial of the events in 1915 in foreign affairs and providing disinformation and creating a mass ignorance via mass propaganda, I also feel fed up with the obsession of some Armenian people about these genocide laws.
The funny thing is Mr. Sassounian finds it "too good to be true" that the ambassador of Sierra Leone admits the events in 1915. Let me tell you some other good news which are actually true: I, like most of other educated man, in Turkey are well informed via personal efforts (to avoid the mainstream ideology) about the Armenian issue in 1915.
Dear Vaneci, I moved on about admitting the crimes of my grandgrandfathers, for which sometimes words are not enough to express without losing sanity. However it is also obvious there is enormous hatred in a lot of Armenian people that actually makes me feel like a murderer.
But Sassounian somehow thinks it is an achievement that this genocide law is passed by Sierra Leone. For God's sake, where the hell is Sierra Leone!! Would you really be happy guys to hear that Swedish people recognize what happened in 1915?? Or would it be actually better to hear a Turk writes down (non-anonymously with his full name) here on this very website that "he feels extremely sorry what has been done to you" and "he wished that you guys remained here and grew up with him in Adana, Kayseri or Istanbul"??
My point is I am here to repent for the crimes of my grandfathers!!
But you need to see Swedish, American or Sierra Leone parliaments instead. Right??? Do u guys need pity?? Well thats what these nations, organizations etc.. can give you...
But if you ever feel like your suffering to be shared by the people of your own land, I say, do it the difficult way!! Try to tell us what we have done. Talk to us...
Talk to me.
To Ahmet and any others ignorant of history: you need not worry about the Genocide conference planned to take place in Ankara in on April 24-25, 2010. The last time a conference of this type was scheduled in Ankara (a few years ago), your very "civilized" Turkish government, "free of bans on self-expression," canceled it and banned it from taking place just a few days before it was scheduled to happen.
Did you know that many Jews who were the early settlers in Palestine, hoping to form a Zionist state in the 1920's were forced to convert to Islam; and, according to an article in a Jewish newspaper still practice some form of Judaism and they still live with the Palestinians. Do you think the Jewish people can ever get these people back? Also, many of them were subjected to atrocities by the Ottomans or arabs at that time. Also, the ancient ruins show that some of the first Jews were converted to Christianity and then to Islam.
Also, didn't the Turks become the servants to the Germans, who were very racist, as evidenced still later on in the Nazi ideology. Nazis considered themselves the master race, social darwinism, etc. Would not the Nazis later have enslaved and even killed the Turks? Science and technology was perverted to serve a theory of subjective bias and racism. Ataturk followed positivism, a philosphy that arose in the industrial age. He thought science and technology would make Turkey modern. However, the existentialists arose after WWII, with a philosophy of anti-positivism, which they hated. Existentialists wrote about "being and nothingness," (the authentic life and the inauthentic life of denial), "I think, therefore I am," (life as consciousness), "the myth of sysiphus," (the absurdity of life), Camus and "the Foreigner" (French prejudice against arabs), Satre, "No Exit," (people are hell), and on and on. Life has a subjective, biased, human dimension. It is not just objectivity. FEELINGS ARE IMPORTANT.
Reality is not "this is a chair". BTW surrealism is "this is not a chair" (2+2=5).
Reality is subjective, human, biased, subject to our feelings, our thoughts.
People can change, they can redeem the sins of their fathers by deciding to be good and start a new life. Man is free, nothing is predestined by God or your genes, you make choices to be good or bad. These were all new thoughts to counter the positivism and racial theories using pseudo-science to support them at the time.
Also, there was the system of dhimmitude that considered people of the book as second class citizens. Israelis say what shocked the muslims the most was that Israelis acted like equals, not like dhimmis, and that muslims are not used to this.
The "model citizen" versus the one living in freedom and equality, with human rights and freedom.
AB,
Please excuse my ignorance, maybe Turkish keyboards are different from the others, but normally there’s a ‘Caps Lock’ button in the left side of any keyboard. When it’s released, typists can type in plain letters and not capitalize all of them. Capitalizing letters doesn’t necessarily make comments more convincing. Just a remark, needless, perhaps…
Now to you points (my responses are in plain letters):
-AS A HALF ARMENIAN HALF LEBANESE ORIGIN TURKISH CITIZEN I HAVE NEVER FELT AN ALIEN IN TURKEY.
Ok. But that doesn’t preclude many other Turks of non-Turkish origin to discover their true genes and feel depressed in your society. See this video (non-Armenian, don’t worry), if you will: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h69Zz0sV0GY
ANY CLAIMS ON THIS SITE FROM ARMENIANS STATING THAT ARMENIANS IN TURKEY ARE OPRESSED AND ARE BEING MISTREATED IS WRONG.
Then you’d need to sufficiently explain attacks on the Armenian communities in the 1950s in Turkey, destruction of virtually all Armenian monuments in the country, reasons for mass emigration of the remaining Armenians from Turkey, plots to kill the Armenian Patriarch, assassination of Hrant Dink, distribution to the schools of 12 mln falsified DVDs about ‘mass murders’ committed by Armenians, and your prime-minister’s threats to deport Armenians from Turkey (I’ve got many more facts for you, but just wanted to save time and space in this Forum).
-TURKISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET (AND THE COMMENTATORS ON THIS SITE) HAVE NOT KILLED YOUR/MY ANCESTORS.
Agreed. Their grandparents did.
-THEY DO NOT DESERVE THE INSULTS THEY ARE GETTING FROM SOME OF THE COMMENTATORS OF THIS SITE (STUPID, IMBECILE, CRUEL, UGLY AND GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE)
They certainly don’t. But my reading into these comments suggest that commentators mostly referred to your forefathers in derogatory words who did mass murdered Armenians under the centralized Ottoman policy of race annihilation or to your government who shamelessly denies the fact.
-REGARDING 1915 EVENTS, I PERSONALY HAVE MY OWN OPINION ON THEM AND I BELIEVE EVERYTHING HAS A REASON TO HAPPEN. AND PLEASE DON’T SAY THAT IT HAPPENED BECAUSE ARMENIANS WERE SMARTER THAN THE TURKS (THIS IS BRAINWASHED ARMENIAN TALK), BECAUSE SUCH ARGUMENTS ARE RIDICULOUS.
I’d be interested to know what YOU think the reason was. No, it didn’t happen because Armenians were smarter than the Turks, but many historians (non-Armenian, don’t worry) agree that one of the reasons was the fact that Armenians were socially more dominant at the time than the Turks. No one here said anything about being smarter.
-SOME OF TURKISH COMMENTATOR HAVE STATED THAT THEIR GRAND PARENTS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS AND I AM SURE THAT THIS ALSO HAPPENED. SURELY A FEW THOUSANDS TURKS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS.
We’d need to draw a careful cause-consequence connection in this particular case. Was it a result of outrage for widespread mistreatment by the Turks? I admit that inter-communal violence happened, as well as Armenian national-liberation uprising against the Turkish yoke happened, but you stubbornly miss the most important point: the response that Armenians received from the Turks was, mildly speaking, INADEQUATE: 3 million Ottoman citizens of Armenian descent have been wiped out one way or the other from the face of the Earth. Could you give me a single example in historical sources found anywhere in the world that Armenians have done anything close of THAT magnitude?
-ON HRANT DINK: HE WAS AN ARMENIAN NEWSPAPER WRITER THAT NOBODY KNEW UNTIL HE GOT MURDERED. ONCE HE WAS MURDERED HE BECAME A REFERENCE SUBJECT ON HOW SAVAGE TURKS CAN BE. I PERSONALY SEE THE MATTER ON A DIFFERENT ANGLE. I CAN’T ERASE FROM MY HEAD HIS FUNERALS WHERE 100.000 TURKS WALKED SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE DINK FAMILY. THIS IS THE SYMBOL I LIKE TO REMEMBER RATHER THAN HIS MURDER.
Your remark that he was nobody before he got murdered is off the subject. But if you wish, he WAS known outside Turkey; he travelled and received awards for pioneering human rights in Turkey. Besides, if nobody knew him how come 100,000 people appeared at his funeral? Also, how can you be sure that those were 100,000 Turks and not mixed or hidden Armenians or Armenian-sympathizers? The international community looked at his funeral from a very different prospective than that of yours. People of the world considered it as a symbol of long-awaited changes in the Turkish society with regard to Turkey’s horrible record on human rights, humiliating provision 301, grave mistreatment of Kurds, hawkish attitude towards the Armenians and all those intellectual Turks who speak the truth about the Genocide.
-ON HIS MURDERER: SOME HAVE STATED IN THIS SITE THAT HIS MURDERER WAS STILL AT LARGE. THIS IS WRONG, HIS MURDERER IS CURRENTLY IN JAIL ON A LIFE IMPRISONNEMENT SENTENCE FOR MURDERING HRANT DINK. THERE ARE SOME SPECULATIONS IN TURKEY THAT HE WAS ONLY PULLING THE TRIGGER AND THAT SOME ULTRANATIONALIST GROUPS HAVE SPONSORED HIM, BUT THIS IS YET TO BE PROVEN.
Yes, Turkish sources say Dink’s murderer is in prison. Maybe yes, maybe he’s enjoying good life in Antalian resorts, I don’t know, neither do you. But if you indeed think that a lonely maniac pulled the trigger with no backing from powerful forces, then I think I’ll stop right here.
-REGARDING PROVISION 301 OF THE TURKISH PENAL CODE: I AM NOT A LAWYER OR AN EXPERT BUT THIS ARTICLE STATES THAT INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO 3 YEARS OF PRISON.THE SAME LAW ALSO STATES THAT CRITICISING ACTION OR POLICY OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS NOT PUNISHABLE.
Article 301 states not just that insulting the Republic of Turkey is punishable, but all of the following (Source is non-Armenian, don’t worry, http://www.osce.org/documents/rfm/2005/03/14223_en.pdf):
1. A person who publicly denigrates Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be sentenced a penalty of imprisonment for a term of six months to three years.
2. A person who publicly denigrates the Government of the Republic of Turkey, the judicial bodies of the State, the military or security organizations, shall be sentenced to a penalty of imprisonment for a term of six months to two years.
3. Where denigrating of Turkishness is committed by a Turkish citizen in another country, the penalty to be imposed shall be increased by one third.
4. Expressions of thought intended to criticize shall not constitute a crime.
It is exactly this loose insult-criticism schism, that the government can use however it wishes to, that makes 301 so controversial, illiberal, and discriminatory in the eyes of the world.
-IT IS INDEED TRUE THAT SOME COURT CASE WERE UNDERTAKEN BY PROSECUTORS AGAINST WRITER, LAWYER ETC. IN EACH INSTANCE THE JUDGES DECISIONS WERE THAT IT WAS FALLING UNDER “CRITICIZING” AND NOT “INSULTING”. ORHAN PAMUK THAT YOU CITE AS EXEMPLE WAS NEVER FOUND GUILTY UNDER 301 FOR INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY.
Yes, some of the several thousands of the accused Turks were not put in prison, but they were tried, sometimes several times, and many deported or escaped. Orhan Pamuk was tried because he said that “30,000 Kurds and one million Ottoman Armenians were killed in Turkey.” Elif Safak was tried because of her expressions in her book “Father and Bastard,” saying “I am the grandchild of genocide survivors who lost all their relatives to the hands of the Turkish butchers in 1915, but I myself have been brainwashed to deny the genocide because I was raised by some Turk named Mustafa.” For a great number of other well-known cases emanating from article 301 and their summaries, please see this (non-Armenian, don’t worry) document: ‘Turkey: Article 301: How the Law on ‘Denigrating Turkishness’ Is an Insult to Free Expression, Amnesty International,’ 10 May 2008, at: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR44/003/2006/en/dom-EUR440032006en.html.
-NOW TAKING THIS ARTICLE 301 AND TURNING IT AND PRESENTING IT IN A WAY THAT IT LIMITS THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN TURKEY IS A DISTORTION.
That’s your personal opinion, which substantially differs from the opinion of many regional organizations and human rights and advocacy groups and international lawyers, like OSCE and Amnesty International. Repel the Article and you’ll see how many millions of Turks will reveal their true identity and the stories of their persecuted families.
-WHEN YOU STATE THAT EVERY TURK’S INTENTION ON THIS SITE IS TO DENY THE FACTS, SORRY I TOTALLY DIAGREE WITH YOU. TO DENY MEANS TO NOT ACCEPT SOMETHING YOU KNOW. THE TURKISH COMMENTATORS OPINION IS THAT SUCH EVENTS DID NOT OCCUR IN THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE DESCRIBING.
THIS IS WHY DIALOGUE WILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THE FUTURE OF ARMENIAN AND TURKISH PEOPLE. THEY WILL SHARE THEIR VERSIONS OF THE FACTS AD EVENTUALLY THE TRUTH WILL TRIUMPH.
Then describe the events the Turkish way. Bear in mind, though, that what we describe is not typically and narrowly the Armenian story, but basically what many other nations, governments, organizations, and professionals in the field agree upon.
Given Turkish denialist stance for decades, their obstruction of internationally-recognized facts, lobbying against resolutions acknowledging the Genocide, distortion of the historical facts in the Turkish educational system, and Article 301 that would most certainly prevent Turkish historians to acknowledge the truth because by that they will insult Turkishness, Armenians came to firmly believe that any dialogue on the issue of the Armenian Genocide will not yield any results except for its prolongation and forgetfulness, which certainly fits Turkey’s agenda.
Akhtamar
I am not here as an advocate defending Turkish government. So far I read on these pages, i found out that Turks were called to be mongol, barbarian, most of them have Armenian, Greek, Assyiran origin, Turks didnt create anything, every ottoman treasury has Armenian, Greek or Assyrian signatures, Turks only knew how to hold a sword and kill. Well dear friend, there are many other aspects like this.
I didnt ask you to point out an evidence, I know horrible things had happened. I feel and say sorry for everybody who lost their grand parents. But I have a question, what is the criterias to call a murder -genocide-? The way it is done or the amount that is murdered? In the same archieves you can find how many Turks and other muslims lost their life due to Armenian riots. There had been 18 riots as far as i know.
The problem is not denying but the way of describing. As you say Turkish media and schools teach us different than the rest of the world, is that because some countries call these events a murder but not a genocide such as Danmark? By the way Danmark is far from being an ally of Turkey.
Like Hrant Dink says, "It will not make any sense to call it a genocide or murder, both sides should try to understand each other and work for a better life. It is the western powers who caused all the problems in anatolia and they never accepted any responsibilities. Armenians are murdered one more time when they are used as a political weapon in the international arena."
To Kurt,
I am grateful that you are attempting to engage in a dialogue about a very painful subject for both sides.
I ask you to consider this: If it is true that the CUP moved the Armenians from their homes because it was war and they were trying to secure the land for their soldiers as you suggest was a customary action carried out by numerous other countries during wartime, than why didn't the Armenians return after the war was over? The Ottoman Empire was dead, Turkey lost the war, world powers were looking over Turkey's defeated shoulder. Certainly this was a good time for Armenians to come back to claim their ancestral homesteads. Why didn't they? They left everything behind in the deportations. Why wouldn't they come back when peace was restored to reclaim what was theirs? Did the vast majority of Armenians really prefer to live as refugees in foreign lands instead of returning to the soil that had nurtured their ancestors for 3000 years? Why are the ancient villages devoid of Armenians, why are so many hidden Armenians living as muslims today? Why are the ancient churches sitting empty, destroyed, crumbling or as goat pens? Why do your own intellectuals risk their lives by acknowledging the facts of 1915-23?
Think! Where are all the Armenians? The truth is obvious.
I realize you are only speaking what you know, what you have been taught and what your conflicted conscience can tolerate, but you have an opportunity to open your eyes to the truth. Join thousands of other Turks who know the truth. Lead your friends and relatives to consider the truth and its ramifications. Tell your leaders to free your nation of the burden of defending itself against what the vast majority of civilized nations acknowledge as truth. It is time.
I as a Christian Armenian don't hate you or your people, but I hate the lies and I abhor the continued indignity that your Official State denial inflicts on the survivors and their descendants today.
To: silent
Yes, before 1940s there was no term that could exactly reflect Turkish barbarity against Armenians, although many witnesses, including the U.S. Ambassador to Turkey Henry Morgenthau did use the terms “race annihilation” and “crime against humanity” in his letters to the State Department. By the way, Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin introduced the term based exactly on the horrors of the extermination of the Armenians by the Turks.
It is short-sighted and small-minded, I’m sorry to say, to state that “no one really puts so much emphasis on Stalin’s famine in 1932-33, or Assyrian deaths in 1914-20 or mass killings of the native Americans well before 1900s or the mass murders of aborigines in Australia in 1800s.” People who value human life and understand that any mass loss of life as a result of deliberate policy of race extermination (read: Genocide), DO put emphasis on every instance of genocide. They believe that if the Armenian Genocide were properly condemned by Turkey and the international community, much less probability could there be for the Germans to exterminate Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and others. Before his extermination campaign in 1939, Hitler cynically pronounced: “Who today remembers of the annihilation of the Armenians?” And you today dare to use roughly similar phrase: “who really puts emphasis on Stalin’s famine, or Assyrian deaths, mass killings of the native Americans or the mass murders of aborigines in Australia?”. Well, WE DO.
WE, all those people of good will who clearly understand that in the cases you’ve presented there was no WAR, and people have died en masse because of government-planned mass murder. Whenever this mass murder involves a planned extermination of an ethnic, racial, and religious minority, as in case of the Armenians, the civilized world calls it GENOCIDE, and not WAR. Can you appreciate the difference? Use your brains and try…
P.S. For your information: Ukrainians DO put emphasis on their famine in the Stalin’s years that they consider a genocide; Assyrians DO put emphasis on their extermination by the Turks along with Greeks and Armenians; Americans DID that in regard to Indians and Blacks by enacting the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s; Germans DID put emphasis on acknowledging extermination of the Jews in the 1970s and pay reparations until the present day; the French DID put emphasis on mistreatment of the Algerians and apologized to them.
You know why they did it? Because normal nations, in contrast to the Turks, are willing to wash off the guilt from their nations’ past, repent, live stainless so to speak, and entered the family of civilized nations of the world.
Dear COMPATRIOTS,
Please pay much attention to what Omar writes. He knows where to pick on us..in a way he is trying to show both his "Khers" wrath...while also vamping his poison that is built up in any Dr. Astarjian described Turk, the Class that rules contenporary Turkey in parallel to predecessors' mode(VOJ) style, if you will.
1.He is corerct WE DO NOT DO MUCH IN DIASPORA-ASIDE FROM FORMALITY LIKE "FUND" RAISINGS, ,PERSONAL aid-myself I do that going back and forth to RA.On a very small scale.Indeed yesterday a new hospital(cardilogy0 was inaugurated in Yerevan -wrk of AGBU-and its adherents...such like...and sporadic organized vists byour youth and/or church officialdom.ALL indeed with good faith,but N O T E N O U G H .
22.I had thought to delve further int into Dr. Astarjian's and coment . have done so in the past.Like most here wll do.It's O.K. carry on.Nothing wrong with that.
But by trying to "LO LO gartal" to a hard -liner turk,means preaching him her to be good and behave...we are not gaining much...
We must-if we are serious-try to RE-ORGANIZE in a fashion that the Diaspora become a REAL FORCE DE FRAPPE-STRIKING FORCE, NO NOT IN THE SENSE OF MILITARISM.OUR young tried that 30 yrs ago..General Kenan Evrenthen turkish chief of staff,retorted..."Armenians want Land,coe a nd take it'....
This has not changed...thaks ,also to those(Most Diasporans do not wish to admit) by Turkey's allies as yet supporting her in ALL MANNER>.
So what a lady up above hinted at ,that we Are there in diaspra and wll fight on for our ancestors rights-to that effect- is crerct.BUT NOT IN THE 'fund-ling"rasing way...
OR PERSONAL, ESTABLISHMENT"s-as above- way.BUT WITH A POWERFULL NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND" ,FOR WICH THIS SERVANT-FOOT SOLDER OF THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE ,IF YOU WILL, HAS BEEN ADVOCATING FOR 32 YEARS NOW..
WE EED TO HAVE A "NEW STATUTE FOR THE DASPORA" THE OLD ONE 160/170 YEAR OLD "SAHMADATRUTYUN" DRAWN UP IN CONSTANTINOPLE BY OUR CLERGY AND ITS FRIENDS IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH A DIASPORA NOW VERY MUCH ADVANCED IN SCIENCES,ETC., ETC., IT IS GOOD FOR THE CERGY,LET THEM CARRY ON WITH THAT..WE MUST BRING ABOUT THE RANK AD FILE OF OUR more than a 100,000 PCA's "roffessional colelagues Associatons' 5 on the scene already,10 more to be formed-THIS IS WHERE THE "Nirhogh hsga" the slumbering Giant is-----OUR HUMAN RESOURCES and through them our economic power.ABOVE NAT'L INVESTMENT TRUST FUND IN GENEVA, CH-NT SUBJECT TO RA GOVERNMENT OR ANY OTHER GOV.
For those $43 million-Just recently given by IMF goes to the Ra Government's Treasury and is spent fr the infrastructure of the roads this and that..partially also -as in the WEST to...
But that is not the core of the issue.Other gvernments are also helping ARMENIA..that is the official way...ALL OVER THE GLOBE.We cannot stop or change that unless there is another French or American REvolution..
Forget about that..
We must rely on our own RESOURCES-i.e. well organized through PCA's and then through LOANS FROM THE NAT'L INVESTMENT TRUST FUND_WITH OFFICES IN YEFREVAN, HELP THE SMALL ,MIDDLE S IZE TRADES, PLANTS AND ALSO THE AGRICULTUERAL FIELD. MORE THAN HALF OF POPULATION THERE LIVES UNDER POVERTY NORMS...
As to other objectives ince the Multi -Bill;ion dollars Fund comes into being...is TO ORGANIZE THE RE-PATRIATION ,first from NEAR ABROAD...those that elft 8/10 YRS AGO ...FOR BREAD...srry to say...
You see, if we aspire to have a heathy Nation,first in our State/Nation RA/Artsakh above must be carefully considered...
Otherwise we may go on as before and in a Status Quo that hasbeen there for over 90/100 yeras...IN SHORT,WE NEED TO MOBILIZE...
RIGHT NOW there are 3/4 of Newly emerging VOICES, or people/establisments LIKE I AM ADVOCATING..one in frace, called "HAYBACHDBAN" THAT HAS DECLARED ITSELF "NATIONAL WESTERN ARMENIA PARLIAMENT', THE OTHER A ONE MAN CRUSADE BY HARUT SASSOUNIAN-LIKE MINE, AND YET ANOTHER BY VARGES EGHIAYAN ..we are trying to bring about the NEW MOVEMET, the mobilization in my words..EACH WITH A DIFFERENT,albeit all with good intetions and "proposals"s Mine is just a "Projections on a New Statute for t he Armenian Diaspora""
I trust Mr. Omar will immedatey report this to his superiors.Fact is,HEY ARMENIANS LISTEN T THIS ONE!!
SINCE ABOUT A MONTH OR S AGO THAT ARUT STARTED THIS NEW ONE..THE TURKISH DIASPORA IS taken up the call and they are organizing-unlike ours- SUPPORTED BY THEIR GOVERNMENT!~!!!!
you sxee we are real s l o w ..WE ARE HAPPY -AS AN EXAMPLE- THAT A YOUNG ARMENIAN has been invited to aprticpate in a debate in Ankara...Mr. hatchig Mouradian... and his friends in the Rak and File feel very much important.ell Turkish diplomacy knows how to caress the FRAGMETED ARMENIANS...THEY WILL IN A VERY NEAR FUTURE SEND THEIR "INTELELCTUALS TO KNEE AT TSITSERNAAERT AND BEG FORGIVENESS.. and this will by and by become more often visits and also their ttitude towards our Genocide Recognition be attended to..
ONLY DO NOT ASK THE TURKIS PRESENT OR FUTURE GOVERNMENT FOR RESTITUTION.
WHAT RESTITUTION, WHAT LANDS? O.. TAKE AGHRI DAGH(ARARAT AND ANI AROUND IT BACK AS YOUR SYMBOLS(THEY KNOW OUR AREMIDS WLL BE VERY MCH satified with that 0 and tell their neighbour Fench,English American ,Russian etc., friends "see we hav e won" Turkey ahs become more attentive a nd is going to give bac to us some toher chunks of lands..(this of course is not the core of the issue.
THIS SOLDIER-foot soldier HAS BEEN ADVOCATING "blood money"" MAIN ISSUE..
GO THINK ABOUT THAT ARMEIANS!! THIS IS WHAT THE JEWS DID AND RECEIVED,MUCH MORE FEASIBLE,ESPECIALLY NOW AS THE LATTER PRECEDENT EXISITS.
TURKEY IS NOT GERMANY THEY WILL NOT PAYSOME WLL SAY.I AND MY FRIENDS KNOW THAT VERY WELL..
THEY WILL COME UP THAT THEIR GOV. TREAUSRY COFFERS ARE EMPTY ,NOW AN ECOPNOMIC CRUNCH IS GOING ON ALL OVER THE GLOBE..
MY ANSWER TO THAT IS -THE BRTISH AMERICAN ILD COMPNAIES THAT NSTEAD OF RUNNING-DRAWING INSTALLING THE OIL PIPE LINE FROM BAKU TO CHEYHA BTC LINE VIA ARMENIA...THE SORTES ROUTE, THEY OVERPASSED LATTER//HAVE YOU EVER ASKED YOURSELF OR THE GOV.OF THOSE CO.S WHY??
aren't we trustworthy? THENCE WHEN WE FINALLY WIN OUR CAUSE/CASE,these oil companies in extension their gvernments-indeed latter- should ut pressure siad companies to pay from the OIL TRANSIT DTIES-PESENTLY BEING PAID TO GREAT TURKEY...A CERTAIN % to armenians genocide survivors heirs-through agbu overseas-diaspora9and ra governmetn as there are survivors heris in both..
WE MUST THINK CORECTLY AND FIND WASY TO BRING CULRIT TO THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE_OUR BAR ASSCIAITONS- PREPAREING FILE A DN WITH OLD TURKISH -ARABIC LANGUAGE DEEDS ETC., claim THAT WE LIVED THERE -VIZ OUR ANCESTORS AND THEIR LAND PROPERTY RICHES WERE CONFISCATED ..most important their lives swere tkane..by the ottoman turkish gov. and thence they must pay "blood mney"...
Stay awake,theya re preparing to by and by "sugar coated"way come to terms BUT NO PAYMET NO NOTHING FOR SUCH IS THEIR MINDSET....
Ahment and everyone else: This seminar, although very welcome, should have been held in 1919 or 1920, during the Istanbul Trial of Ittihad ve Terekki criminals; or any time between then and now. So although 90 years too late but "better late than never" as the saying goes. Remember the Germans did it immediately after WWII, acknowledged the crimes of the Nazis, apologised, banned Holocaust denialism, paid compensation as they still continue to do and have formally commemorated the Holocaust at the state level as well as made it part of the German education system from the start.
So hopefully the official denail of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey, which has been financed and organised by the Turkish state, both Unionist and Kemalist-republican, can be put to rest. And they will begin to follow a civilised path towards recognition, repentance, reparation an apology and formal and mass annual commemoration of the greatest Armenian tragedy in Turkey. That would be normal civilised behaviour and not just because Europe and the world expects this but because that is the decent and civilised thing to do for Turkey.
Now of Turkish leaders and ordinary citizens develop the courage one day soon and go to Yerevan to lay flowers at the Genocide Memorial (better still build a similar one in Ankara and Istanbul!) and kneelthere the eternal flame and ask for the forgiveness of the Armenian people or afterwards hold a joint seminar in Yerevan to study the depth of the crime and its consequences, the great moral, spiritual, economic, cultural and historical trauma and loss that they have caused to the Armenian people that also will be very welcome.
But please, don't continue with the old denialist ways if by holding a seminar in Yerevan you mean holding a denialist propaganda "seminar" in Yerevan. Just think can you imagine some Nazi outfit holding such a "seminar" in Tel Aviv or indeed in Germany or anywhere in Europe?!
Denialism is dead and must be buried for good. Recognition, Remembrance, Repentance and Recompense are the way forward for Armenians as much as for the Turks. There is no other way.
Dear Dr Deranian – Thank you for the link on Armenia during the Seljuk and Mongol periods (11th-13th centuries AD) by Robert Bedrosian. It reconfirms what most of us knew that, in contrast to what people like Karekin are trying to disseminate here, Seljuk-Mongol-Turkish centuries (11th-13th and then 14th to 1915), and not the Byzantine centuries or any other, were the most horrific in Armenia’s multi-millennia history, culminating in the unprecedented by its magnitude mass extermination of the Armenians in the 1890s by Bloody Sultan Hamid and in 1915-1921 by Turkish Nazis Young Turks. Thank you for providing a link that reinstates this historical actuality.
Dear Compatriots,
FIRSSTLY DO PLEASE FORGIVE MY VERY BADLY-ERRONEOUSLY FAST TYPED ABOVE POST.I DO APOLAGIZE. NOW HEREUNDER IN BRIEF FORMAT:-
Unless we really mean business,DO LET US GO ON WITH THESE -like posts.Otherwise my ADVOCAY IS THE FOLLOWING:-
1.We must re-organize the Diaspora with Central councils in each Armenian community and then from these to delegate our ELITE-based on 3-delgates from each proffessional colleageus association,alongside our politica party rep.s to form a Supreme Diaspora Council-with 5 Departments-1.Legal-political in Strasbourgh-alongside RA delegate,2.Economic ,in Geneva-with 16 offices of each Proffession Group, c-ordinator of the future "National Investment Trust Fund' by initial input by our 5/6 Magnates -LATTER APPOINTING THEIR MNETARY EXPERTS thereat.
3.Executive in N.Y<> next to RA 's U.N. Deegate.4.The Social Services and & Reatriation,in Moscow.5.The spiritual in St. Etchmiatdzin(in conjunction with Great House of Cilicia)-
2) Main objective is to bring about our main stream PCA's over a 100,000 Prof.Colleagues Associates(our Resourcfes0.
3.Through these -and initial input for establising Nat'l Invest.Trust Fund" ,i.e. working capital -to be invested by their experts in Gov. bonds that bear interest,some 4/6% per annum,return to all investors 2/3% as dividends,Rest to be added to Capital.Loan given through "Fund" Offices-actually a Financal instituion in Yerevan to Farmers,sall and medium size trades etc.,
4. ALSO.When Fund is large enough contemplate through special Committe in Geneva CH to commence a huge Repatriation to RA/Artsakh by creating firstly JOBS there, such as Farming ,small industrial complexes, then have the near 2 million that l;eft Armenia go resettle there.
Otherwise by trumpeting "ARI TUN'-this mainly directed to the young(who already since 15 yrs ago to RA/Artsakh) on one two week stints or a few families re-settling in RA/Arsakh,cannot seriously be considered as Repatriation.
I sould like to add a very important point or two here below.
The DIASPORA MINSTRY, that came to life,after from many Diasora community country voices were raised for creation of same,lags very much behind.Since it is not representative of the 5 main Diasoras.Namel the North and s.American , The EU, The Russian and the Middle Easter,.
These should each have their elected person to occupy that post in Yerevan for a ONE YEAR period on a rotative basis.Their knowledge of local language,say French or English,spanis russian ARAbic AS WELL AS THE KNOWLDGE OF THE SAID AREAS CULTURE, EDUCATION AND PARTICULARITIES VAIRES IMMENSELY.Each one is cognizant what their community needes ad what their community can inject into the fabric of ALL ARMENIA DIASORA MINSITRY,thus paving the way for a much more closely cooeration and integrating all in the HUB of Armenity(Armenidad)present Republic of Armenia.
To add ,that tose young going there on vists ,-as to their wish and also RA Gov. consent ought to undergo at least one month military-cadet like ,with analogue Youth wo are enlisting as "zoragochik" cadets or to serve a 2 year service.This is essential since in most diasporaic countries Military service is no more obligatory.It is with pay and out Young men Young women do not undergo military-even cadet like- services...
best and
HamaHaigagani SIRO
To: Kurt from Byzantine capital of Constantinople that’s been invaded by the Turks in the 15th century AD
You seem to have a fundamental reading comprehension problem, as most Turks posting in these pages.
In my comment I said (do please scroll up and re-read it to understand it): Armenians belong to Indo-European family of nations that originated in Northern India and then spread across Asia Minor and into Europe. Do you see anywhere in this phrase your distorted version as to Armenians “originated in Northern India and travelled to Anatolia to relocate?” Or you just follow the internationally known Turkish way of distorting everything: historical events, architectural monuments, origins of your nation, causes of Turkish extermination of ancient peoples, etc.?
By the way, for your knowledge, there is and has never been such a geographical toponym as ‘Anatolia’, it’s just a newest Turkish invention. The area is historically known as Asia Minor, and the areas inhabited for millennia by the Armenians are known in international scholarly sources as the Armenian Plateau or Armenian Highlands.
People do move around, but some, like your Seljuk-Mongol predecessors and Young Turks, do so by wiping out indigenous inhabitants of those lands with scorched earth, fire, sword, and unimaginable barbarism and settle in their lands. And then they refuse to acknowledge for decades that they have done so.
Also for your knowledge: the U.S., Brazil, and Argentina are immigrant countries. Who inhabited them before? These areas were not as populated and condensed as Asia Minor where already established civilizations existed (Byzantine, Assyrian, Hittites, Armenians, etc.). Pockets of Indians and aborigines existed, and, yes, in the U.S. Indians were mistreated. But you know what? The U.S. government has acknowledged the mistreatment of Indians when it adopted the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s. Turkish government has not.
News flash: has anyone considered that the architects of the Armenian genocide may not have even been true Turks, themselves? This is the irony...and the saddest part...that today's Turks have been hoodwinked into supporting the criminal and murderous actions of a bunch of crazy, non-Turks of the CUP, who ran the country into the ground, stole the properties of the minorities and created a hundred year mess for Turkey. Just as the Nazis ruined Germany w/ their antics, the characters of the CUP were a disaster for everyone, Turks, Armenians, Greeks and anyone living in that country. Let's look at exactly who benefited from their actions and we will find the criminals and place the blame accurately. In any criminal case, it always helps to follow the money...the same thing is the case in Turkey. It is no different, except the 'set-up' blames all the wrong people. To some degree, the current events in Turkey that have exposed the Ergenekon activities, shows where these things come from, as they are all related to the plans of the Ittihadists. Forcing people to drink poisoned kool-aid doesn't make them guilty of anything but being easily manipulated and perhaps stupid...but, being stupid isn't a crime. The crimes are always instigated and coordinated by those at the top. Let's remember that important point.
Well, if, as many writers have said, up to 150,000 Armenians returned to their villages after WWI and recovered their properties. So, they and their descendants are there, disguised as either Kurds or something else, perhaps, but they are there. At a talk given by Kemal Yalcin, I heard that he recently attended a wedding in Adiyaman, and that 1000 Armenian families, all w/ guns, came to celebrate. He said he was the only, unarmed Turk in sight! This is something important to hear, along w/ the information that there may be upwards of 250,000 Hemshinli (Muslim) Armenians in NE Turkey. And, if you include all of those who have an Armenian grandmother/grandfather....it's quite a few people in Turkey who are alot closer to Armenians than you might think. It may also explain the over the top hospitality you receive once you tell people there that you are Armenian. Unfortunately, the diaspora has a dark image in their minds that they can't shake, but must if they are to move into a new era. Yes, Turkey will eventually apologize to Armenians...and I suspect it wants to...but, Armenians need to help that happen...not with threats, but with a different approach. It is possible....but only if people can stop screaming 'murderer' at every Turk they see. That behavior is unfriendly, nasty and over all just plain unproductive if there is to be any kind of reconciliation.
Omar...
You said...
Bye the way Mr powerful diaspora Armenian, instead of cursing Armenian government which is located in landlocked geography and living in serious poverty, why don’t you rich diaspora armenians help your brothers back home
I apologize for my comment but Are you an idiot???? What planet do you live on ? Because of YOUR govt, Diaspora was born... Because YOUR govt, Armenia is having such hard times.... You think you are all strong and mighty hiding behind the strong Turkey .. ANCIENT ARMENIA.... and think you can bark what Diaspora can do for Armenia? You speak like a true ignorant Turk because you think Diaspora is rich and it does not' do anything to help our brothers and sisters... .. How dare you to come here and insult those hard working people who put penny to penny to make sure their families are taken care of and do not go hungry..you act like a caring neighbors.. someone who will help Armenia to be the country that they should be.. HUGE B.S... our neighbor is such as hateful, blood thirsty Turkey.. I rather not have you as my .. I don't need a two faced, conyving lying leeches as my neighbor...
By generalizing that Diaspora is rich and we only care about ourselves.. you are in wrong SIR... and i hope Turks like you who speak the false "Truth" drawn in Hell themselves.. just like to wished that curse upon Diaspora...
and Omar.. Turkey will kneel to Diaspora... and it is already doing it... why do you think Turkey is trying to separate Diaspora from mother ARmenia??? ask yourself...because IT IS AFRAIRD OF DIASPORA... get that through your think head...
SHANTAGIZOUM (sorry but I can't figure out if this is an Armenian word or a name... please clarify)....
It was very very hard to understand your comment.. Maybe because of the format used.....but the thought and the idea you were trying to portray was very broken and not cohesive... I do apologize for mentioning this but I was trying really hard to understand what you were tryingt o say...
However, one thing I was able to get is that you agree that Diaspora is not doing enough.... am I correct in saying that??
Even though I am one and my family is one family, our help is tremendeous to the 6 families we support with the little that we have... I agree with you that Diaspora can do much more..but only if are more organized and unified..Diaspora not only can help our people and but we need to help our Country freeing from cheats, liers, thieves and most of all from the hateful and denialist Turkey.. When you have millions upon millions Armenians all over the world, it is not an easy task bringing everyone together and expect everyone to be on the same page right away..but one already knows why we are all over the world..If Turkey did not bring this Genocide upon Armenians, we would not have the challenge that we have currently.... we would not have Diaspora..we would not have Armenia without a strong, honest govt...We would have had our power and our lands (TURKEY)... we would not have the hardship, the heartaches, the sleepless nights because we worry about our country and families....OMAR's ANCESTORS and now OMAR'S CURRENT GOVT. were and are the MAIN guilty party to cause all this choas.
Thank you
Gayane
Why is it that Hayastantsi Armenians are never as hostile to Turkey as those in the diaspora? Perhaps they also know very well that the Russians have not been so kind to Armenians during the last 200 years and that Armenians are murdered in Moscow on a weekly basis. The diaspora has this festering psychology that has created a hateful monster, and it's not healthy at all. My grandparents lost their entire families who were left behind in Turkey, but never, ever said they hated Turks...and we were not allowed to say it either. Yes, they were pained by it, but didn't want us to be poisoned with hatred or fear. Until a new attitude can develop, Armenians will continue to bang their empty cups loudly against the wall, demanding someone - anyone - to fill it...but until they can tone down the decible level, no one will be interested. Trust me. It doesn't work that way....
CDEFG,
I HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO TELL YOU...
YOUR HATRED IS CLOUDING YOUR JUDGEMENT. BLACK YOU SEE IT AS WHITE, WHITE YOU SEE IT AS BLACK...
YOU ARE FREE TO TALK ON BEHALF OF ARMENIANS FROM DIASPORA (SINCE I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE PART OF IT), BUT DON'T SPECULATE ON THE LIFES AND FEELINGS OF MINORITIES IN TURKEY TODAY.
SURELY YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO TURKEY AND YOU HAVE NEVER TALKED TO ANY MINORITY FROM TURKEY.
I WISH YOU GOOD LUCK IN YOUR HATRED.
Hello dear Gary,
I was unable to watch the video yesterday.. However, i will definintely do so tonight...
I have not seen the Hamshen Armenians.. but that is on my list to watch as well.. Thank you for the reference...
Gayane
Dear Gary,
Thank you for your kind words.. I appreciate it.. :)
Please have your daughter look up Gayane Voskanyan on the facebook (my profile picture will bear three ladies).. not sure how many Gayanes are on the facebook but hopefully you will find it.. I will be honored to be your friend..:)
And the story of Gayane, Hripsime (my mother's name) and Shoghakart is an inspiring yet heartbreaking story.. but it is beautiful to read...:) I am proud to know we had these courageous beautiful women who did not kneel to Turks...
Gayane
Dear Boyajian, Dr. Deranian, Gary and Artashes..
WELL SAID my friends.. Well said... Thank you...
Dear Burak,
I appreciate your straightforwardness in abhorring your ‘governmental politics for the complete denial of the events in 1915 and providing disinformation and creating a mass ignorance via mass propaganda.’ Most impressive and touching is your admittance of the crimes of your grandfathers,’ and that you are here ‘to repent for the crimes of my grandfathers.’ I appreciate your sincerity, believe me, I really do, knowing how dangerous it is in Turkey to take such a courageous step.
With this appreciation in mind I’d also like that you understand that what you characterize as ‘widespread obsession’ about genocide resolutions that ‘leads to lack of comprehension in sarcastic comments,’ is considered by Armenians as the only effective tool to invite your denialist government to acknowledge the truth. Of course, it’d be more appropriate to hear that Turkish government itself accepted recognition of the genocide, and not Sierra Leone or Sweden. But where is it, Burak? How many more decades do we need to await your government’s repentance for crime? It is important for you to know that not only your government denies the crime, it engages itself in aggressive countermeasures, such as lobbying against resolutions recognizing the genocide, persecuting and convicting Turkish intellectuals for speaking the truth about the genocide, murdering them on the streets as in the case of Hrant Dink, disseminating disinformational DVDs to the Turkish elementary schools that portray Armenians as mass murderers of the Turks, imposing Article 301 of your Penal Code on all those who insult Turkishness by telling the truth, threatening to expel Armenians from Turkey, and completing the destruction of almost all ancient Armenian monuments in Western Armenian provinces of Turkey.
Armenians need not pity, they need acknowledgment of the historical truth and repentance that should come not from the people like you, although it is, again, very touching and commendable, but from the government that for decades denies the truth.
As for telling you what the Turks have done to the Armenians, I’m afraid no discussion in this forum will be enough time- and space-wise to satisfy your curiosity. If you’re interested, there’s a whole wealth of information in the leading world archives and repositories in Great Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Russia, Italy, and the U.S., not to mention the Republic of Armenia. If travelling there is costly, there’s a lot of evidence in the Turkish Archives. Lots of evidence is distorted, of course, (and this one other countermeasure that your government takes against the truth), but some evidence, especially Verdicts and supporting materials of the Turkish Military Tribunal of 1918 and 1920, that clearly pronounce the Young Turk regime guilty for the total annihilation of the Ottoman Armenian citizens.
When you familiarize yourself with these documents, do please talk to us…
AB --
I'm confused. You asked that I answer your questions. I did in all honesty spending a lot of my otherwise busy time. Where exactly have you seen hatred in my response to you? These are my views, they may be incompatible to yours, but it doesn't mean they can be qualified as "hatred." Re-read them and ask yourself in which passage you felt anything Turkophobic or personally offensive?
And, no, I'm not an Armenia from the Diaspora. I live in the Republic of Armenia. We are one, indivisable nation.
Good luck to you, too, in comprehending other people's opinions and viewpoints.
To Taguhi and Karekin,
I'm glad you found the link to Mongol-Seljuk rule over Armenia useful. Reading it was for me, I must admit, difficult in the sense that as you say, the most horrific years in Armenia’s multi-millennia history. It's where we Armenians could be said, to have lost it.
With this said, I so concur with you Karekin that we Armenians need to somehow get past the last 1,000 years, and especially 1915, if we are to move forward. This is not to say that we should forget history. NEVER! But we must be pragmatic, working with the Turks and others that we can work with, all the while utilizing the potential we have to further Armenian interests.
I have to believe there must be a way to frame a solution to 1915 such that both Armenians and Turks can benefit. Any thoughts on this?
Okay Karekin, you account for 150,000 Armenians who returned and reclaimed their property in the 1920's and who assimilated as hidden Armenians/Hamshenli. That leaves 1 million plus to account for.
I can't figure you out. You are obviously well-educated about history and geopolitics. Are you a peace maker? An apologist for the Turks? Or something else.
I await rapprochement with Turkey but the acknowledgment of truth is fundamental to this process.
Mr. Ahmet = Ahmad this is correct name if you are real Muslim.
Written in Al Qurran Al Kareem.
Islam says, the nearest to us is Al Nasarah (The Christians),
It seems the Armenians know Islamic religion better than Turks.
Humanity is more important than religion.
Arabs protected Armenians without knowing human rights.
Who hanged 43 Arab literates in Lebanon and Syria in two Squares.
In may 6, 1916 and August 1916.
Is this written in your history, or you vanished it
But Arab poet has written so much about you no one can vanish that.
You pushed ancestors of prophet Muhammad Al Hashimite to get rid of you
by help of British.
You hanged the Arab Muslim Literates because they called you,
"You Turks, You are never Muslims."
Every one can change his religion,
but they can never change their cruel genes.
Needs Genetic Engineering to turn clean.
VTiger,
Can you give me the web site that shows about the Turkish-Azeri film festival? I would love to see it in Yerevan.
The subject of the conference will be the fallacies in the armenian claims that what happned in 1915 was a genocide. the conference present evidences from the archieves that no armenian scholar has dared to study.
the conference will also discuss why the armenian diaspora is so scared about the formation of the historical comission.
Bagraduni,
You dont want me to go to hold a denialist conference in Yerevan? Why? if you can present your ideas in Turkey, why cant I present my opinions in yerevan? are you scared that you will be proven wrong?
if not you should not object to the idea of a conference in yerevan.
Vagharshag.. I agree with you 100%..
I too can't figure Karekin out..
Even though I am all pro having our differences straighten out and move forward..and live as neighborly as possible... but we can't move forward when the other party is not allowing the process to move forward by altering the history, by lying not only to their own citizens but also to the world (despite all the facts and eye witness experiences), covering up the truth and screamining bloody words trying to put the blame on Armenians.. how can you have normal relations with such govt???
I dont' hate Turks as one of my comrades already said in one of the comments, I just hate and despise the fact that they lie and deny....
Thank you
Gayane
Ahmet,
Excellent point my brother!!!
To all of you Dahnak Armenians...What say you all? Why the objection to Ahmet's proposal? After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander!
Editorial board, will this be yet another one of your censorship jobs of hiding the truth from the masses? Stay tuned people.
I’m afraid people like Karekin (actually he’s one of the kind in these pages given the ‘originality’ of his views) venture into engaging themselves in mind-tilting efforts that no sober-minded Armenian would ever succumb to. I’m bewildered as to where his apologetic attitude towards the Ottoman Turkey comes from.
Whoever the architects of the Armenian Genocide were, Young Turks or the others, whether Young Turks were forced to carry out race annihilation or have done so in clear mind and soberness, essentially don’t matter at this historical juncture. The genocide has been executed based on orders of the central Turkish government that in 1915 comprised of the Young Turks, and voluminous evidence exists to that effect in the Turkish and world archives. And Young Turks claimed to be true ethnic Turks. Even if they claimed to be tribesmen of the African tribe Mumbo-Yumbo, they were the central power authority in Turkey in 1915-1918, who dispatched well-documented and referenced orders to annihilate their Armenian subjects. The Young Turks’ actions might have been a disaster for everyone in Turkey, yes, but my people have suffered in an incomparable magnitude having been wiped out the whole Western Armenian civilization from the face of the earth. Armenians and international experts rightfully blame Young Turks as perpetrators and demand an apology from the modern Turkish government for the actions of their predecessors. Whether Young Turks were ethnic Eskimos or African Zulus doesn’t matter. Whether they might have been instigated or coordinated by someone mysterious on the top doesn’t matter, it’s been done by their hands. Whether there might have been other motives for their actions (money, political preferences, etc.) don’t matter, the goal doesn’t justify the means in the modern, civilized world. In fact, no historical evidence exists to prove the opposite, or even if it’s found, will the Turkish government more easily repent and recognize the genocide? Or will the Armenians be able to return to their ancestral homeland now?
What does matter at this historical juncture is that all consecutive Turkish governments continue to deny the fact of the genocide. Or people like Karekin would say that all consecutive Turkish governments also were non-Turks? Well, then why wouldn’t they move away from other peoples’ lands if they’re non-Turks? And I don’t care who benefitted from the Young Turks’ crime. First and foremost, Turks did: they captured, distorted, de-populated, and destroyed the lands of my ancestors. Understanding who else might have benefitted wouldn’t make my grief any easier or help the genocide acknowledged or give my homeland back to me.
Janine,
You have many various freedoms in Turkey! We are not worried about your pathetic attempts to ultimately destabilize our country. We've stood up to the world's scrutinty time after time. However, I challenge you to go to Yerevan and go on their TV an proclaim that there was no genocide. I'd like to see how long you are allowed to live? You may not be arrested, but how far (without a police escort) would you make it out of the studio? My guess would be, depending on if enough people viewed it, that you'd be mobbed and mutilated with a mile of the studio! After all Janine, a 98% purity rate in Armenia, accomplished by self-admitted ethnic cleansing of all non-Armenians, is nothing to be ignored now, is it! So, do you take my challenge (without pre-alerting the people of Yerevan that it's a PR challenge stunt)? Put your money where your mouth is!
To the editorial board,
Are you going to allow this post to go through, or will it end up being censored, like so many of mine and others have been? Stay tuned y'all.
To the editorial board,
WHERE ARE MY POSTS?
To: Kurt
Kurt, for your information, genocide of the Armenians started in Istanbul (then Constantinople). 200 or more prominent Ottoman Armenian intellectuals: writers, poets, scientists, musicians, businessmen, community leaders, etc. have been round up and beheaded by the Turks. It was done on April 24, 1915 and this is the reason, by the way, why Armenians all around the world, as well as all people of good will and conscience, commemorate April 24 each year as the Day of Remembrance. After that day a widespread horrific actions began in all Armenian-populated provinces of Turkey resulting in extermination and deportation of ALL Armenians from their historical homeland. Can you imagine what extent, what degree of a calamity we, Armenians, are talking about? It’s like to imagine that a government would give orders to exterminate and deport all Turks from the modern-day Turkey. Turks have not relocated Armenians, they used the relocation fairy tale as a pretext to annihilate the Armenians or starve them to death during the death marches. What you call relocation is death marches for Armenians. During those marches Armenian men, children, women, and elders have been murdered, mutilated, robbed, burnt or buried alive, let starve to death. Noone in the modern world any longer believe that Turks relocated the Armenians. Too much of a documentary evidence exists in the Turkish and world archives that leaves not a bit of suspicion that it was a government-planned, thoroughly-executed genocide. If you don’t believe the world, try to apply as a researcher to your own national archives and read the Verdict of the Turkish Military Tribunal of 1918 and 1920 pronouncing Tallat, Enver, and Djemal – leaders of the CUP (Young Turks) regime guilty in total annihilation of the Ottoman Armenian citizens.
As for your other remarks, well,I think it’s a waste of time to try to reply to them because you just don’t seem to have enough knowledge of history outside the Turkish history books.
By the way, I’m writing from the Republic of Armenia. Yes, it is currently my home, and the cities yopu mentioned are properly spelles Yerevan and Gumri. But you’re correct, I AM homesick because my all ancestors from the paternal side are from Moush and Kars. They say, my grandparents house in the Bairam Pasha district of Kars is still there. And I hope that one day, my dear Turkish friend, I’ll go back there… Thanks for wishing me that!
ArmFedayi....shat lav es grel.. apres...I am with you 100%
You know what pisses me off...???? the fact that they call us, the Armenians selfish, aggressive and liars... they tell us to forget and move on.. to live in peace.. to respect and not demand...WHAT A JOKE!!
To all the Turks and the very small group of Armenians who think like Turks...If we are aggressive and demanding.. why is it that for the last 85 years, the question of Genocide was not brought up as vocally and with such power like we have done in the last 10 years??... ok.. i will tell you... it is because WE, the Armenians, are not aggressive people, we are polite, we ask and we don't demand... and we TRUST.. we trusted that Turkish govt will do the right thing...HOWEVER, having denial, hearing lies day in and out, and accussations of Armenians organizing the Genocide (even the facts all pointing to Turkey) Turkey still did not come to terms with his past and come clean.... this truly pissed off alot of Armenians.... our cup is full... how can one group of people take 95 years of this emotional abuse and not start acting up and voice their dismay even louder.. having this resolved in peace for the last 85 years or so obviously gave Turkey to re-gain its cover of the truth and allowed them to push the denial even more.. NO MORE.. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH...no man on this planet will take this type of treatment by standing quite with their mouth shut.. i am sure Turkey would love to have all Armenians with their mouth shot like the last almost 90 years.. but no more.. you will never get that.. not now, not ever.. on the contrerary.. we will become even louder and this time, we will demand.. .. ...
If Turkey was that genuine and willing to normalize relations with ARmenia and the Diaspora, it could have done it a long time ago.. but yet to this day, Turkey proves itself to be undemocratic, unwilling, and still bloody thirsty for Armenian blood..
Gayane
Dear Vaneci,
I guess my English was not good enough to make my point. I am not curious about what had happened personally. You say "I’m afraid no discussion in this forum will be enough time". I agree with you and luckily there's no need for that. I know enough of what has happened. I basically meant that you guys have to make sure people keep on talking and learning from each other. Especially Turks have a lot to learn.
You also state "Armenians need not pity, they need acknowledgment of the historical truth and repentance that should come ... from the government". Do you sincerely think that a Turkish government one day will say "We apologize" in a society where the majority have no idea actually what Armenia is? That's why, once again, I said you should talk to people. You should approach them not as if they are responsible for what has happened but just as people. Once people see what terrible things have happened then a governmental admittance of the events will naturally follow.
You also ask me when this apology will come: "where is it, Burak? How many more decades do we need to await your government’s repentance for crime?". I tell you how it should work! You simply have to talk to people. Make them acquinted with your culture, history etc. Once you do these, then people will ask themselves "What have we done??". No government can deny something that is a majority belief. Yet no Turkish government "will" give a repentance (even if every single country including Liechtenstein passes a relevant law recognizing this issue) as long as the majority of Turkish people have no idea about 1915!!
My personal enlightment has happened luckily due to encounters with Armenians with whom I can talk to and learn from. I have acquired enormous sympathy and shared feelings towards this culture.Yet I just cant stop hating this Diaspora attitude which doesnt come to me to show what kind of cursed lands I have born into but expects pity from Sierra Leone parliament. This, what I call diaspora obsession, drives me crazy. Same obsession was called as the "poisonous blood" by Hrant Dink.
Best
Burak
P.S: It is not as bad as it looks actually in Turkey. You can say that you believe it was a genocide. You can say it was not a genocide but a massacre. You can also say it was a retaliation. It just doesnt change what we have done to you. Does it? Once again, -knowing that you will appreciate but wont be satisfied- I am deeply sorry for our mutualy past.
To Fedayi:
Again every one has their own story. remember that Turkish Padisah has brought Armenian Archbishop to Istanbul.
TUrkish Government opened its archives to scholars but NOT Armenian government.
My Grand dad is from Gumru- is in Turkish. He was kicked out of there and I am not sure his house still there but doubt it.
So, your story to you and my story to me. Again, living somewhere as a minority does not mean you own it, like my grand dad in Gumru...
I have read enough and come to connclusion that we have not done anything just to protect our citizen and property where ever they are.
If you take arms against your country and waer uniforms of french, russian and Brit, then any country has any rights to relocate them as the Turks did..
If you are homesick come and visit then even Istanbul.. I could be your guide my dear Fedayi- can( jan)...
Best regards from on the Bosphorus of Istanbul
Kurt
To Kurt:
I apologize for my comment but there is no other way to describe you...
You are an idiot..... to think that your people were thrown out of their homes and Gumri is in Turkey..... wow.. what a brainwashed individual you are.. i feel sorry for you.. truly do...
Gayane
Well, Kurt from Constantinople,
As the Armenian proverb goes: “du qo eshn es qshum...”, translated literally: “[whatever I say] you still ride your donkey.” Why are you not listening? Because your coward government and misled people are afraid of truth to death. Because it should feel very frustrating to realize that Turks are invaders and settlers; that forefathers and founders of your state were mass murderers and criminals.
Don’t you even attempt to mix up individual cases like your grandfather living in Eastern Armenian city of Gumri and 3 millions of Armenians inhabiting for almost 3000 years the lands of Western Armenia: Kars, Bitlis, Diyarbekir (Tigranakert), Sivas, Van, Erzerum, and Kharpert. If you still don’t get the difference, I feel pity for you... On those lands Armenians lived as majority most of their history until the invasion of Seljuk-Mongol nomads from the steppes of Central Asia in only 11th century AD.
And no, my misled and misinformed Turkish opponent: millions of unarmed, defenseless men, women, children and newborns, the elders were not wearing uniforms or took arms against the country. There were no World War One frontlines in the central eastern and eastern parts of the Ottoman Empire. These people were systematically murdered on the orders of central Turkish government.
I am homesick but my ancestral lands are not in Constantinople, so thanks for your invitation but you’d better invite our Greek friends and serve them as a guide, because in the 15th century Turks invaded Constantinople that was for 1000 years a capital of the Byzantine Greek Empire. My home is in Moush and Kars, and when I return there I hope there will be no Turks so I could get my way through by myself.
Burak,
I basically agree with you re: the importance of people-to-people contacts, but disagree that these contacts should replace the international pressure on your government. Both venues must continue if the efforts of Armenians and the international community are to yield a result. If we leave it on people-to-people contacts only, imagine how many more hundreds of years will be necessary for a nation of 10 mln (Armenia and Armenian communities abroad combined) to enlighten the nation of 73 mln. We believe that international pressure on your government is of utmost importance; otherwise a reluctant government will always conformably deny the truth as it did for 95 years and prolong recognition of the crime for another 95 years.
Of course, pressure from within the country is very important, but you’ve got to admit that because of the discriminatory Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, few people can be secure to speak out the truth. In the current reality, those who did were either tried in courts, or deported, or escaped themselves, or been shot. Some Turks might not know where Armenia is, as you say, yes, but many of them know or heard about Article 301. Why won’t you better pressure your government to lift the Article? According to you, ‘no government can deny something that is a majority’s belief.’ So don’t you think you’d be better off persuading your government to repel the ban on the freedom of speech, than to have Armenians educate 73 mln Turks about the Armenian genocide. Hrant Dink tried to go against 301 and been shot. Orhan Pamuk and dozens of others tried and been expelled or escaped. But if millions of Turks try, you can succeed. And when you succeed, there’s no doubt in my mind that millions of Turks will reveal their true non-Turkic, non-Muslim identity, and many more millions will tell stories of persecutions of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians that their grandparents, neighbors, community leaders witnessed in those horror years.
As for Diaspora (and I’m not a Diasporan Armenian), you have to understand: they’re the direct descendents of those deported or bearly survived hundreds of thousands of Armenians who lost EVERYTHING: their homeland, their lands and pastures, their houses, their neighborhoods, their property and valuables. One need to be an Armenian to understand the pain that exists in these people and it’s not going away. Even Diasporan Armenian children, in their third or fourth generations, born and raised outside their homeland, bear this burden in their genes and blood. They’re not obsessed, they carry the memories of those persecuted millions of innocent people and just follow the call of their blood: to achieve Justice for their victims. This cannot be called ‘obsession’ or ‘poisonous blood.’
P.S: Burak, things look different on the outside. Maybe you can say to your friend or even a group of friends that you believe it was genocide. But listen to this: I can be on the Armenian TV and declare that genocide of Armenians never happened, but I will not be prosecuted or tried in courts afterwards. Can you come out on Turkish TV, declare that Turks mass murdered 1.5 mln Armenians and you believe it was genocide? I wonder what would happen to you afterwards…
As you quite correctly predicted, I’m not satisfied, but I truly appreciate your candor and courage.
Dear Vaneci,
I hope all will be settled.
Best
Hi Ahmet - some see, others don't. there are not many opportunities to learn about the other side... it's complicated.
Armenia liberated those occupied territories FROM Turks. Therefore, TURKS ALWAYS BEEN THE aggressors as Armenia is trying to defend self and liberated territories If turk wants peace it needs to gracefully stop the aggressive rhetoric and return of the rest of Armenias territories which belongs to its real owners, the Armenians.
Armenians will NEVER give up on the recognition of the genocide.
Let's give them as much rope as they need to hang themselves in public. and in the precess force them to reveal their true face in their full ugliness year after year after year..
Robert
if can rea english,then
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
turks are the same old bloodthirsty barbarians NOTHING has changed except they've manged to learn to wear western clothes to pass self as one, and a new mask to hide their real uglines. the ugly turk is alive and well.
Dear Armine....and anyone else...while I don't intend to upset you or anyone else, let me just say that 1) there are lots of Armenians in the diaspora who really know nothing about their own history (I am not one of them!) and 2) there are many who are done w/ the genocide obsession....and 3) it does matter who ordered the genocide because the political relatives of those people are still running the show and still causing problems for everyone in Turkey. There is a connection. That said, you should know that Turkey is not the deep, dark, horrible place that you have in your mind...it's actually quite wonderful. And guess what? I live in America, which is land that technically was owned by native American Indians for at least 50,000 years....so, what am I supposed to do about it at this point? Feel guilty? Hand my house over to them? What do you suggest? And, more importantly, how are native Americans supposed to feel or act? You must realize that history, tough as it is, moves on. Stop being stuck in the past! It's a dangerous place...so, don't go there.
A typical Turkish snakelike behavior: to show to the world as if they’ve advanced a iota in responding to pressure from the international community and ‘Look the world, we now organize such conferences, see how progressed and responsive we, Turks, are towards the recognition of our own crimes.’ As it had happened before many times, at the very last moment the conference will either be postponed indefinitely, or several aggressive Turks will enter and disrupt it, as it happened in one of their universities several years ago, or even more so (God forbid!), the government will instigate a political murder, just as it happened with Hrant Dink. Anyway, what could the participants essentially discuss if the mouths of the Turkish discussants are potentially shut by the notorious Article 301?
To: Ahmet, Robert and other Turkish denialists posting in these pages –
First, no legal measure of the Republic of Armenia, in contrast to your humiliating 301 that’s internationally known as a discrimination against freedom of speech, will hinder you to present your opinions in Yerevan.
Second, what happened in 1915 is no longer considered a purely and singularly an Armenian claim, you still live in the early 20th century. You missed out already that the claim has become international.
Third, Turkish archives have been distorted as evidenced by many Western scholars conducting research there. Besides, Armenians have such a massive amount of documentary evidence in the leading world archives and repositories that Turkish archives pale in comparison with them. Hence there’s little need for Armenian scholars to conduct such a research. The issue has already moved over the boundaries of a scholarly research and toward acceptance of the proven fact and repentance.
Fourth, Armenian archives are open, in fact, two or three Turkish scholars have worked in them. But let’s forget about Turkish or Armenian archives, lets’ pretend that both of them are biased. Travel the world and familiarize yourselves with archives and repositories in London, Berlin, Paris, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Rome, Washington, and Athens, if you will. Armenian don’t need to, nor the rest of civilized world. That time has, too, already passed.
Fifth, guys, stop making fools of you. How can you possibly prove the improvable? Do you really consider all international scholarly and research community as idiots, and some 30 foreign governments, the European Parliament, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, forty-four state legislatures in the USA, leading human rights organizations, advocacy groups, and international lawyers as liars? Give me a break…
The time for discussions has passed. We waited for your apology for 95 years. And throughout 95 years you were getting round the issue in order to prolong it with the hope that it’ll finally be forgotten. There’s a Supreme Justice, folks, and if you believe in God, you’d know that he’s not only gracious and merciful, but also chastising and judiciary. Mass murders of fellow human beings and fellow citizens cannot pass unpunished.
Yes, Vagharshag...I don't disagree that truth is essential, but you know the truth quite well, as does every Armenian, and frankly, probably every Turk, as well. But, screaming 'murderer' to someone's face over and over again is NOT the way to get that person to admit something like genocide, especially 95 years after the fact. You need to understand something about human psychology...and basically, it's this...if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expect a different result, then that's the definition of insanity. If Armenians want something from Turkey, such as an apology, there are other, less 'vayreni' ways of moving in that direction, but demanding something that can't be easily given is a recipe for endless anger, frustration and craziness. More hatred is not the answer to hatred. Have you ever considered that aside from avoiding guilt, modern Turkey and Turks might just be plain embarrassed by the actions of their previous Ottoman government? They have gone out of their way to avoid any connection to the Ottoman Empire...and genocide is at the bottom of the list. Just as Americans do not want to admit they live on land stolen from the Indians, neither do Turks. It's human nature, not something evil, just the way human beings are. So, act human towards your fellow human beings...even if it hurts. You will be a better person because of it.
Kurt, in the service of peace, I would prefer that harsh words were not used against you, however I wonder if you can even grasp the frustration your words evoke. You are perpetuating a bitter denial, minimizing the crimes committed against Armenians and claiming the same was done to Turks. Of course some Armenians fought back. Of course some Armenians joined allegiance with Russians. These are facts. But the scale of the destruction and decimation of the Armenian nation is undeniable evidence of a program to eliminate the "Armenian problem" once and for all. The evidence exists and is acknowledged around the world, even if you refuse to see it.
You have your story and I have mine, but it is Easter and I can only hope that the Light of the World will shine on you and illuminate the darkness.
So then, Karekin, you are a peace maker and a student of human psychology!
I agree with your definition of insanity and I also recognize that "conciliation" is part of reconciliation. But let's not lose ourselves and our truth by bargaining it away.
I understand that Turks experience embarrassment from association with their Ottoman past and the Young Turk atrocities. I understand the "cognitive dissonance" created by the knowledge that your history lessons were distorted lies. Yet the truth must be confronted. Look to South Africa as one example of how reconciliation based on acknowledgment of the truth can take place.
I agree that yelling "murderer" is counter-productive and that new tactics can and should be pursued in the interest of peace. Our little Armenia has much to gain through a normalization with it's neighbors, but at what price? Do you have a plan?
This message is for Kurt
Mesrob Kloian
4
Born 1903 - Village of Darman, Vilayet of Erzerum, Turkey
On May 14, 1915 the day before the deportation of our villages, a Turk
official came to Darman and called together the leading figures and
young men of our villages and sent them away. We were told they
would rejoin us after we all left our villages – but we never saw them
again. They gave us one day to get ready. We were forbidden to carry
any weapons, even a pen knife. Any they found with weapons would be
instantly put to death. So the next day we left our villages escorted by
gendarmes. Some were allowed to use carts while others had to walk.
The first day went without incident. The following morning we woke to
find that a hundred Turkish gendarmes on horseback, all armed with
guns, yatagans
Our carts were then taken away from us and we were forced to walk on
foot carrying the smaller children on our backs. We walked all day and were led through desolate
areas where there wasn’t even a drop of water then we camped at night. On the third day of our
march we were led into a narrow canyon where we camped.
The next morning as we prepared to leave the encampment we heard some shots. In the wink
of an eye we were completely surrounded by hundreds of bandits who had taken position around the
convoy. They were accompanied by the Turk gendarmes who had been guarding the caravan. Among
them were Kurds, Turks, Cherkes, Zazas, as many women as men, all armed with rifles, swords,
yatagans, scythes, clubs, and axes. I was beside my mother and father and our whole family was
there together. At the shot of a rifle the massacre began. The ground was instantly covered with
bodies everywhere. My sisters, brothers, sister-in-law, niece, and nephew were killed or carried off. I
saw my father try in vain to save my mother as two Turks carried her off. I ran behind my father as he
climbed a hill. There were a hundred of us running in all directions but we were soon surrounded by
Turks who searched the men, one by one. After taking everything they had, including their clothes,
they cut them down with swords axes, killing them right where they stood. After finishing with the
others, three Turks with swords drawn searched my father. After taking his money, belongings,
whatever they could find, one of them, without warning, thrust a dagger in his stomach. As my father
lay wounded another came over to him and demanded money, which he didn’t have. Without
hesitating, he shot him in the chest. My father held out his hand to protect himself but it was to no
avail. He died in the arms of my older brother Zakar.
I escaped and hid in an abandoned stable that night. I awoke to hear cries and screams, and
through a crack in the door, I saw that under the trees surrounding the camp they had piled up
hundreds of babies that had lost their mothers. They had devised a game, one that was amusing
them. I saw with my own eyes that they were trying with their yatagans to see who could sever the
head of each child with just one blow. For them it was a game. First one, then another, raised his
sword high in the air and, lest he lose his wager, brought it down with shattering force. To add to their
sport, they placed babies at fifteen or twenty meters up against a tree or bush, to see who could shoot
the best. What I saw there that day and in the narrow canyon has haunted me all my life.
5 and daggers, had joined our caravan during the night.
4
owned and operated a sidewalk café, “La Regence,” on the Blvd Du Jeu De Ballon . He died in Grasse France in 1969.
This is an excerpt from a 100 pp. 1959 memoir by Mesrob Kloian (brother of Zakar Kloian) done in Grasse, France, where he lived and where he
5
that was a favored especially for attacks on unarmed civilians.
A type of Turkish sword, referred to as the “sword of Islam.” It is a short, curved, decorated sword, renowned for its strength and sharpness
Robert, you really should not confuse Armenians with Turks. If you went to Yerevan and proclaimed there was no genocide, people would think you were crazy. I mean that literally, a crazy person. khenten, we say. And you seem crazy to me, to be perfectly honest, because your perspective is so far outside of reality.
The other crazy thing is that you really feel that you are threatened with destabilization if you actually accept that your country committed a genocide. This is truly crazy. It's reality, it happened, and you are saying your denial is the only thing that prevents Turkey from destabilization. Why? I ask again, "What terrible thing will happen if you accept that your country committed genocide?" This is what the whole worldwide body of genocide scholarship has concluded about Turkey. Why would it destabilize you to finally admit the truth instead of covering it up? That is the groundwork for craziness - on a national or personal level. Lies make a place crazy. Lies mean that truth will destabilize. It is time to grow up and learn humility, admit mistakes, throw off this need for aggression all the time on your neighbors - that's more than just the Armenians. People used to call Turkey the sick man of Europe. It is a sick man who needs to live with denial for fear of destabilization. At least I know that there are many Turks who can accept reality. But you feel Turkey cannot accept what is real, and you need to deny in order to protect what is in your mind stability. A rocky slope. Very sad.
You would think there never was any such meeting or conference in Turkey. This is not the first one, nor the last.
So where is 301? If no one attempts to denigrate the basic symbols of religion or nation, then the nationalists will not have a case. I am sure they will try though. So, how many people are in jail today for speaking or discussing the so-called genocide? Zero.
I do not agree with the positions of some of these panelists, but I will defend their right to talk about it as much as they want.
I assure you none of this will stop the claims that there is no such freedom of discussion and Turks are ignorant of their history. It is the same people when confronted with reality and facts, still turn around and push their mythology as factual history.
I dare anyone go and hold such a conference in Armenia. Better yet, go and challenge this myth in France or Switzerland for example. Facts do not need such protection, or congressional resolutions or such a campaign of fogreries and intimidation. Then again, this is hardly about facts.
Turkey's Armenians? I think the proper heading should have been Turkish Armenians. Maybe even Armenian Turks as "Turk" today simply implies a citizen of Turkey, similar to "American". Israeli Arabs, Italian Americans, French Canadian, etc.. get it?
I agree with them though. Erdogan owes a big apology.
"Every one can change his religion,
but they can never change their cruel genes.
Needs Genetic Engineering to turn clean"
That is so true! You are the living proof! Some people never tire of shouting their bigotry and shortcomings from tree tops.
Here is another small tip that may help you in life: If a man says his name is XYZ, it means his name is XYZ, not your or another version of it. It is simple manners not to correct someone's name and imply they do not know their very own name.
Well, what is the answer? Of course, that's not easy, but maintaining peace at all cost and respecting other human beings is a good place to start. To demand human rights or historical truths while simultaneously insulting someone's ethnicity or humanity is not the way to achieve those goals. Every human being makes mistakes, large or small, and even the most righteous, good person can be made to do bad or evil things to another. This has been proven over and over again. So, endlessly portraying Armenians as 'saintly' beings and Turks as 'devils' is equally wrong and unproductive. If Turks are to be demonized for 1915, then what about the Arabs who conquered Armenia before the Turks? or the Persians? or the Mongols? or the Russians? And, let's not forget that from the first arrival of Turks in the 11th C until 1915, Armenians did quite well. Yes, there were bumps in the road, but compared w/ how people lived elsewhere on the planet, Armenians were living very, very well there. They may not have had their own government, but so what? Self-rule isn't everything, even though we all think it is. It's very difficult, as we can see today, since no country can exist as an island. But, I maintain that avoiding war, persecution, violence and aggression are the best ways to proceed. Most countries go down that path for power or resources that they THINK are necessary, but are usually not, and in the process, cause a huge amount of human harm and misery that take years to overcome. If Turkey can treat Armenia (and Armenians) as equal human beings, and Armenia the same in return, alot of good can come from it. The truth, like cream in a bowl of milk, will always rise to the top if left undisturbed, where it can be savored by those who appreciate it. At this point, the pot has been stirred quite a bit...let's wait a bit for the cream to rise before shaking things again and creating a useless mess. It's already happening.... but patience is required by everyone, on all sides of the matter.
95 years after annihilation of Armenians from their homeland, in an atmosphere of state denial & gag on pronouncing the word "Genocide", and 'Armenian Genocide' a taboo for ordinary Turks, how can such a conference be isolated from government and ultra-nationalist influences & threats? A Turkish government who for years 'cunningly' spent millions of dollars on denial policy; how can become at once so open minded to let intellectuals incriminate its own policy? Nevertheless, let's see such brave initiatives can bare fruit in such a hostile environment!
Murat – If you’re misled and disoriented to the extent that you believe that Turkish-government planned and executed mass annihilation of the Ottoman Armenians is a mythology and not factual history, which not only Armenians but also several dozens of foreign nations, international bodies of genocide scholars, the European parliament, 44 state legislatures of the United States, scores of historians, human rights and advocacy groups, and international lawyers firmly believe, then no conference either in Turkey, or Armenia, or France, or Switzerland, for that matter, will change your delusion for a iota. I’m afraid you’re dead wrong in stating that Turks are ignorant of their history. How can they not be, if there’s virtually nothing in your schoolbooks about exterminating and depriving indigenous civilizations of their homeland in Asia Minor in various time periods? Even nowadays it’s become known that 12 mln DVDs have been distributed to you elementary schools depicting Armenians’ ‘atrocities’ against the Turks during the CUP years, i.e. a completely reversed picture of what actually happened and is known to the world. Ask yourself, how can these school children NOT be ignorant of their true history when they grow up with such a distorted knowledge? I agree that facts do not need protection in conferences or parliamentary resolutions, but it is the denial of facts by all consecutive Turkish government that DOES need such conferences and parliamentary resolutions. If your government cannot find the courage to name things by their names and repent to the Armenians, then alternative measures are put to work. And this is being done for one reason: because race annihilation is not just a domestic affair, it is a crime against humanity. As for controversial, illiberal and discriminatory Article 301, Hrant Dink, Orhan Pamuk, or Elif Safak, among dozens of others (some of whom are Nobel Prize laureates), never said anything that could be qualified as remotely denigrating basic symbols of your religion or nation. Nevertheless they were tried, sometimes several times, and ultimately been deported or had to escape the country. Maybe not many of them were put in prison, but the single cold blood murder of Hrant Dink is more than demonstrative of the fact what might happen to anyone raising his or her voice against the state of human rights in your country. For a large number of cases emanating from article 301, please see this, if you will: “Turkey: Article 301: How the Law on ‘Denigrating Turkishness’ Is an Insult to Free Expression”, by Amnesty International, at: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR44/003/2006/en/dom-EUR440032006en.html.
Yes, Murat, Turkey’s remaining Armenians, the number of whom is estimated at 60,000. Turkey’s remaining Armenians who, based on the Ottoman census of early 1900s, comprised 3 mln and who inhabited historical Western Armenian provinces of Van, Kars, Sivas, Bitlis, Kharpert, Diyarbekir (Tigranakert), and Erzerum for almost 3000 years, lo-o-o-ng before the invasion of your predecessors Seljuk-Mongol nomads from Central Asia in the 11th century AD. A distinct Indo-European nation. A distinct Christian nation. A distinct civilization that existed on the ancient maps by Ptolemy, in the historical records of Xenophonte, in the records of ancient Sumerians, Greeks, Hittites, Assyrians. A distinct nation through which expeditions of Alexander the Great passed, in which legions of Roman Empire fought, through which routes of the ancient Silk Road connected the East and the West. A distinct civilization of people 3 mln of whom have been wiped out from the face of the earth by the Turkish CUP regime in 1915-1921. Out of 3 mln just 60,000 Armenians currently live in Turkey.
Might you know what could have happened with the remaining 2 mln 940 thousands, Murat?
i really wonder why my reply to kharpet is not here...
"Three things naught but evil work–
The locust the vermin, and the Turk."
-- An old Arab song
That is so true! You are a living proof!
Here is another small tip that may help you in life:
“Les Turcs ont passé a tout est ruine et deuil.”
(The Turks have traversed there, all is ruin and mourning.)
-- French writer Victor Hugo
In case you don't know the Turks' real name...
Sick man of Europe = Turks. Armenian, Pontiff Greeks ,Assyrian & now Kurdish Genocide perpetrator = Turks. Western Armenia and Cyprus occupier = Turks. Historical revisionists = Turks. Dark stain on human history = Turks.
Fellow Armenian commentators,
Today is Easter, the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God has given Christians a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead so that we may walk in a new way of life.
Let’s forgive our transgressors and love our enemies, as Jesus teaches us. It is not us who need to judge the Turks who committed a heinous crime against us and inflicted pain upon us, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. What is required of us is forgiveness, for it is written:“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21). – Holy Bible
Murat and "Robert" you obviously have either short memories or, more likely, are fully paid up and card carrying Deep State agents, probably in the US or Europe engaged in "professional" denialist propaganda. So no point in debating anything with you. Even if you wanted to talk the truth you would lose your "jobs" and salaries. As the saying goes 'whoever pays the piper calls the tune' - you get paid to lie, just like so many lobbyists getting millions from Turkey to engage in professional distortion and denial of Turkish history in general and the Armenian Genocide in particular. I bet until yesterday you were still singing the praises of totally discredited Davoud Halagoghlou, Kamuran Gurun, Aktas Gunduz and a few other arch priests of official denialism and regurgitating their ridiculous "theories" of "it was civil war" and "Armenian traitors" and other such nonsense.
And let's not get too excited about this seminar, VERY WELCOME THOUGH IT IS: Ragip Zarakolou, brave, courageous and honest though he is with 100% integrity, he is very much on the very fringes of Turkish society having suffered tens of court cases (including some pending right now), his wife the late Ayshe Nur Zarakolou and himself having suffered years of imprisonment, fire bombing of their publishing house, Belge Publications, not to mention repeated punitive fines on their company which have led to bankruptcy (a more "sophisticated" application of the infamous 301 "anti Turkishness" nonsense) for what, you may well ask?! For having integrity and honesty and for translating and publishing French, German and English books on Genocide against of the Kurds and Armenians. There are currently, according to EU reports, hundreds of journalists and independent academics with such "sophisticated" cases against them awaiting trial BUT THINGS ARE IMPROVING A LITTLE SINCE THE MURDER OF HRANT DINK AND THE THREATS AGAINST NOBLE WINNING AUTHOR ORHAN PAMUK AND THE INTERNATIONAL PUBLICITY THAT THESE RAISED ABOUT HOW TURKEY IS STILL VERY MUCH IN THE "MIDNIGHT EXPRESS" MODE! (Anyone who has not seen the film must do so to understand the nightmare that is Turkey if you're an Armenian, a Kurd or want to think independently).
Ahmet's case is probably slightly different as he could be one of the millions of the brainwashed who does not know any better as he most probably hasn't had access to independent literature. His case also shows, actually, how far Turkey has to run before it will become a "normal" and civilised society and state, at the level of an average European country such as say Austria or Bulgaria. I would optimistically hazard a guess and say perhaps 100 to 300 years but possibly 1,000 years and more if we take Switzerland, France or Germany as standards!
Karekin – If you’re done with genocide recognition efforts that the prevailing majority of Armenians make for decades in order to achieve Justice, why are you posting comments in a site that, among other issues, deals with the genocide recognition? Don’t you think it’d be more suitable for a person with your one-of-a-kind mentality to comment in Zaman or Turkish Daily in your 'quite wonderful land of Turkey'? The majority of Armenians cannot erase their genetic and historical memories just like that, as simple as you tend to advocate in these pages. It’ll be possible to overcome ONLY when we know that the murderer-government has apologized to the victim-nation. PERIOD.
Your outlandish comparisons with American Indians are, mildly speaking, naïve and, strikingly, lack the depth of the Armenian thinking. American Indians did not inhabit America as condense as Greeks, Assyrians, Hittites, Armenians, and other ancient nations did in Asia Minor. At the time of Portuguese/Spanish/British arrival America was MOSTLY uninhabited, not counting several disconnected Indian tribes. Was there a wrongdoing on part of early Americans with regard to the Indians? Yes, there was. But guess what: a) It was NOT on the magnitude that Armenians suffered in the hands of the Turks; and b) Americans felt guilty and have acknowledged their wrongdoings (both with regard to the Indians and Afro-Americans) when the U.S. government has enacted into law the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s. If you travel to Washington, DC you’ll see the grandiose Museum of the American Indian right next to the Capitol, heart of the nation. Besides, Indians have not created a civilization in a true sense of the word (agricultural development, urban construction, settlement development, architectural development, educational network, religious institutions’ development, arts and sciences development, libraries and repositories’ development, and other infrastructures), whereas Armenians have created one empire, several statehoods, and several dynasties starting 2nd millennium BC up until the Seljuk-Mongol invasions of the 11-13th centuries. Even more, they retained their statehood up until the 14th century in the Cilician kingdom. Our case is unique in many respects, the most important one being that the Turks have wiped out our whole ancient civilization, not just segmental nomadic tribes in mostly uninhabited lands as in the case of American Indians.
Turks cannot hand out our houses, remnant of our churches, monasteries and educational centers to us on their own will just because no invader hands out the occupied lands to their rightful masters, the lands need to be fought back. But what Turks CAN do is to stop their shameless denialist policies, repent for their crimes and extend apologies to all Armenians. And, for your knowledge, this by no means pertains to the past, in which, as you personally think Armenians are stuck. Apology that the world is demanding from the Turks is a matter of the present, and it’s needed exactly to overcome the grievances from the dangerous past.
Jesus... Your mentality is so twisted and weird.
TO ANI ,GAYANE DIANE TIGRAN AND THE REST OF YOU (INCLUDING AHMET ,MURAT).i could not leave latter tw out anyhow.THOUGH I WISH TO POINT OUT T THE FIRST ONE WAS IT THAT ASKSED IF SUCHA CONFERENCE/SYMPOSIUM COULD TAKE PLACE IN YEREVAN.
WHERE ARE YOU PEOPLE?I WAS AT THE CENTRE FOR NAT'L,INT'L STARATEGIC STUDIES LAST YEAR IN YEREVAN.INVITED TO PARTICIPATE. I CAN GIVE YOU EXACT DATE AND WHAT TRANSPIRED IN DETAIL.OW IN BRIEF.
THIS IS THE CENTRE-ESTABLISHED BY RAF.HOVANNISSIAN -FIRST FOREIGN MINISTRE OF RA...
THERE WERE NEAR DOZEN VERY NICE TURKISH YOUNG LADIES AND YOUNG MEN INVITED THERE, UNIVERSITY KIDS, PLUS TWO TURKISH GOV. FUNCTIONAREIS ONE WAS ALSO FROM BIRINGI OR SME SUCH UNIVERSTY PROFESSOR FROM ISTANBULLA.WE CONDUCTED VERY CIVIL, COURTEOUS DISCUSSIONS.I WAS STUNNED THAT THESE YOUNG TURKS DID NOT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THERI PAST HISTORY-EVEN IF THEY HAD-THEY DID NOT SOW IT ..THEY ARE AFTER ALL PEOPLE ELECTED TO GO TO YEREVAN AND PARTICPATE AT SUCH CONFERENCES.VERY CREATIONAL CREATIVE RATHER...
WHILE OUR PART-THE ARMENIANS ALSO YOUNG MAINLY DID NOT ,COULD NOT HAVE WAT OLD PEOPLE LIKE SELF HAD STORED FROM MANY SUCH CONF. IN EUROPE...WHEN ALL WAS SAID TRYING TO MEND PAST GRIEVANCES ETC.,I NOTICED THAT PRECIOUS LITTLE WASSAID ABOUT TURKEY'S RECENT -VERY RECENT HISTORY-THAT IS AFTER THE ARMENIANS WERE SBJECTED TO GENOCIDE /EVICTION(LATTER MEANS FORCED DISPLACEMENT) BY THE BY.. the I hinted that i was very much hopefull that THE NEW GENERATION TURKS-SUCH AS YOUR GOODSEVES WOULD TAKE PAINS TO STUDY-OTHER THAN YOUR GOV. PUBLISED HISTORY BOOKS-OTHERS' NOT NECDESSARILY ARMENIAN.OH ONE THING MORE DID YOU KNW THAT CLOSE TO 18 MILLION PEOPLE THAT NOW LIVE IN WESTERN ARMENIA(anatolia) WERE UNTILL quite recently were called "mountain turks"..
WHEN MRS. MITTERANDT-WFE OF EX-PRESIDENT OF FRANCE , FRANCOIS MIITERRANDT ,AS A STOUT ADVOCATE OF HUMAN RIGHTS ,HAD COME OUT AND DISCLOSED THAT THESE PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY " k u r d s "...?
I THEN EXPRESSED HOPE THAT SOME DAY -LIKE PROFESSOR RICHARD G.HOVANISSIAN -SILENTLY PROVED-TRAVELLING FROM CITY TO CITY IN U.S. SOWING SIDES THAT HE HAD TAKEN WHEN INVITED BY A NICE TURKISH LADY PROFESSOR FROM MID-WESTERN UNIV.TO TURKEY ONLY 2/3 YRS AGO...
HE SHOWED THESE SLIDES -MIND YIOU WITHOUT SAYING AYTHING ABOUT GENOCIDE TO A MIXEDF TURKISH AND ARMENIAN PUBLI AND OTHERS ONLY DESWCRIBING THAT THIS PIECE OF STONE CARVINGS ON IT ARMEIAN WAS FROM KHARPERT, THE OTHER YERSNGAerzinca), VAN BITLIS ET.,E TC., ETC.,
THEN THE CONFERENCE GOT HEATED UP,SINCE THE TURKS PRESENT UNDERSTOOD HIS "SILENT" MESSAGE...THAT ARMENIANS HAD LIVED THERE...NOW G O N E ...
couple of these got up and with "KHERS "-means wrath.(pretty much like that of Prime Ministre Erdogan) THAT "YOU ARMENIANS STABBED US ON THE BACK" JOINED WTH THE RUSSIANS ARMIES ETC., (this bloke did not understand or conveniently forgot that at the time TURKISH ARMIES WERE NEAR ALL MANNE4D BY german officers..SO?????
NOW WAIT A MINUTE...THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN A TURKISH LADY STTING IN FRONT OF ME with a very harsh tone told prof. hovaniissian a man well advanced in age and revered by the int'l communities.."ANSWER THAT QUESTION!!!!"
i really could not swallow that one...and just a bit later asked permission to speak,stood up ad said the following:
"FEW PEOPLE HERE, KNOW (fist saying that i was from Europe)THAT ANOTHER PEOPLE FAR AWAY FROM ARMENIA HAD SUFFERED THE SAME FATE, TO THE WEST...HAVING BEEN CONQUERED AND RULED OVER BY NORTH AFRICAN KHALIPHATES FOR -JUST LIKE US- 600 YEARS..a sanish Princess UNITED THEIR PRINCESS, SECRETLY ARMING THEMSELVES ADN DROVE THE CONQUERORS OUT OF ...S P A I N .....
LATER SAME TURKISH FELLOW SHOT BACK...WELL. WE HAVE LIVED TOGETHER FOR CENTURIES LIKE BROTHER AND SSTER..WE SHOULD G ON NOW TOO.
at the coctail hour i approached this chap,-now amongst a group-AND SAID TO HIM"yes i agree, we sould d so, ,BUT PRIOR TO THAT THERER ARE SOME ACCOUNTS TO BE SETTLED>>>>jesus...this man got so "KHERS-LY" and muttering "settle accts settle accts left us...
YOU SEE MY DEAR FELLOW ARMENIANS TURKS WOULD YESGTERDAY HAD COME AND KNELT AT tsitsernakapert and asked for giveness-FACT IS THEY ARE DOING IT NOW THEIR WAY yavah yavash, by and by.....BUT but......just don't ask for restitution from them wil ya?
FACT IS AND MARK THE FOLLOWING WORDAS PLEASE. THEY WLL EVENTUALLY EVEN "THRWN IN MOUNT ARARAT AND A RUINS" AS A GESTURE OF benevolence"BAKHSHISH- in their tongue....BECAUSE3 THEY STILL THINK THEY ARE THE MASTER RACE..WITH ALL THOSE WELL ARMED ARMIES-(FURBISHED BY ...ALLIES)and will not cede anything if pressed or CLAIED FROM THEM..
BUT I SHALL REFER TO THIS ISSUE OF r e p a r a t i o n s LATER...
BEST..
TO THOSE WHO UNDERSTAND ...
Happy Easter Kurt.
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!"
AMEN to that Boyajian... well said...
Happy Easter to all my Armenians and yes even people like Kurt.. May God protect you and shine his light for a better future...
Gayane
To Karekin:
Even though I agree with you that we as human beings, we need to recognize, reconcile, resolve and move on..but lets not get ahead of us...
WHERE in the world did you see us, the ARmenians act "VAYRENI"????? Give me examples please... but keep in mind the following before answering it:
As I said in one of my previous comments.. being peaceful, understanding, quite, shy, and passive for the last 85 years or so about this matter did not work.. we let the govts handle the Genocide recognition and restitution and believed something will be done... the Armenian people did not push the issue with a loud vocal voice and more power in those 85 years or so thinking maybe humanity and justice will prevail but has it ??? the answer my dear Karekin is NO.. nothing has been done.. all these years Turkey used our silence, our shyness, our kindness, our passive manner about this matter to feed its ego, its denial even with more powerful tactics and thought it had us in its palm... well NO MORE... our cup is full.. for the last 10 years ARmenians finally started to realize that being quite and polite about this matter will not solve anything; hence WHY the Armenians around the world started to stand up and shout louder and clearer that this type of treatment is unacceptable..and that we are going to do something about it... you can only poke an animal few times... once you start to harrass it, the animal will get aggressive and attack... well as you can see my dear Karekin, Turkey has done that to the Armenians for the last 95 years.. they have poked us over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.. and guess what??? increased hatred and aggression is expected.. no one will take this type of denial, lies, and disrespect for too long.. we have had it...
So preaching peace between Turkey and Armenia is a wishful thinking.. and I myself would love to see it... but I can't imagine that happening until Turkey comes with terms what they have done... You speak about hatred and vayrenutyun... I do not and I am sure many Armenians do not hate the Turks but we hate the fact that they lie to our faces and deny until they are blue in their faces.. why do they do that??? well we already know the answer.. this tells me that they are provoking anger.. they are provoking aggressiveness and that does not spell out peace to me.. does it to you???
I support your idea and thought but you are not thinking realistically..
That is my two cents.
Thank you
Gayane
I just shed million and half tears reading this eye witness story that you shared with us..
and Karekin wants us to reconcile and be humans after reading and picturing the horrible experiences our ancestors went through..no matter what Karekin, Armenians can't be as barbarians and heartless as Turks... We fight with a pen not with a sword like the Turks...
Gayane
My last comment was for Darwin who shared the story of Mesrob.. Thank you for the story... very heartbreaking..one should think that we, the Armenians should get used to reading stories like this but we never do not.. at least not me..
my heart bleeds every time i encounter these types of stories...this pain will never go away and we will not forget and forgive until we get justice and everything else that was taken from us.
Gayane
Karekin jan..
Ok.. I know you want us to live in peace, I know you are spreading a good message and a positive one.. and it seems like ARmenians are not allowing all this good to happen...
Aasa tesnem what would be your solution.. do you have a plan??
If you think we act unacceptable and demand when we should not, what is your suggestion to solve this matter?
Do we go hug it out with the Turks? Do we say " it is ok, continue lying and denying but we will be your friends" Do we not fight for the Genocide recognition? Do we not work on educating the world about it? Do we not express our frustration and disgust on how we are being treated by Turkey and its citizens??? I do not know.. I don't have a PHd, I don't have masters degree, I am not a politician, I am not a lawyer nor a teacher... I am regular Armenian who cares, loves and bleeds for her country, her past and present and wants justice and truth... you may have a plan and you may have an understanding that I may not have.. Therefore, I humbly ask for you to share your solutions (concrete and realistic) on how to fix and reconcile with people like Kurt and his kind including the Turkish govt...
We are all ears.. please advise...
Thank you
Gayane
Gites che Joe.. sirts enqan khovana when iranq kaghen irants.. inch lav klini..
kverchananq drantsits...
HAPPY EASTER everyone.. God Bless you all
Gayane
Wait... I need clarfication from Murat...
I may misunderstood your comment; however by you stating
"I agree with them though.. Erdogan owes a big apology".. .Do you mean he owes a big apology to the Armenians because they are Armenians and belong to the ARmenian nation who happen to live on their own ancestral lands??... or do you mean he owes a big apology to the Turks (because you don't see these Armenians as Armenians but you see them as Turkish citizens)....
Humor me.. i think i know what you meant but I need to confirm.
Thank you
Gayane
Karekin, you are still an enigma. You are more concerned with the feelings of Turks than you are with the residual impact of an unacknowledged genocide on the collective psyche of the Armenians. Of course Armenians are not saints and individual Turks are not devils. But what the Turks as a State did to the Armenians from 1915-23 was incomparable evil. Let's call it what it is.
Yes we were oppressed by Persians, Arabs, Russians, Byzantines, Romans, etc...even our own nakharars. But were we ever systematically erased from the land?
Brother, you have to grasp the difference. You are confusing the forgiveness and tolerance we are to show each other as fallible human beings with the kind of accountability we must require of the State. It is as if you are suggesting that Armenians need to stop being cry-babies and move on with life. Look around the world and you will see that Armenians are moving on, building productive lives as citizens of many countries. But what is the price? Where is the healing? Like children of a painful divorce, the wounds cut deeply and the impact can be felt for generations.
The kind of systematic destruction of a people by the State can not be minimized, should not be tolerated, must not be manipulated as a political bargaining chip. It is our human responsibility to stand against such crimes with a clear voice, even if the accusation is uncomfortable to hear. This is what we owe to our grandmothers... to humanity. This is how to make a better world.
Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur...
To Ararat,
Your third, and especially your fourth points are completely BS!!! Every single scholar that has examined the archives in Turkey have all praised them! We, unlike dashnak Armenians, have nothing to hide! Contrast that with so many of Armenian so-called evidentary documentations which have been proven to be FORGED, FABRICATED, FALSIFIED, and for the past decade and a half...PHOTSHOPPED!! The Armenian archives ARE NOT OPEN to the public!! Typical lying dashnak!! You echo and personify the very words of Sir Ellis Bartlett as he said on the floor of England's parliament in Feb. of 1895..."Armenians are of all the Oriental peoples, the most adroit, subtle and the MOST PRONE TO LYING!".
Very good Khatchig jan. Your mission along with ours is accomplished.
Sorry Takuhi, but you really now what you're talking about. The European invasion of the Americas resulted in 95% of the 20 million inhabitants being completely wiped out, to be replaced w/ the languages and cultures of the conquerors. This is history. You may not like to hear it, but other human beings have had it much worse along the way. Armenians, whether you like it or not, did very well under all the empires that conquered them. Here's a tough idea to swallow...Armenians lost and lost big. That doesn't mean abandonning genocide recognition, but come on...let's be real...all the recognition in the world will not turn back the clock of history, I'm sorry to say. We should be very happy that there's an azad Hayastan right now....that's something very unique in history...and, it needs our help...not petty arguments about battles that have been lost a long time ago and can never be won. The Armenian case is not unique. Very sad and yes, painful, but not unique. Get out of your Armenian bubble and see the world in its entirety. Yes, apology is due, but you can pound your fist and jump up and down all you want, it will not produce a sincere response or one that you want.
To Mrs. Anahid,
I wish we were not Christian; one Armenian said,
Because we were Christian we were slaughtered.
Recently I started calling our selves 'Gomidasian'
which means Culture and Religion.
To Mrs. Taquhi
Thanks for your clear article,
Our case cannot be compared with any other.
We were the heart of civilization,
America was an empty lands when invaders entered, and still empty they call for immigrants to come and build.
Western Armenia had churches, cathedrals,
Till now such cathedrals can't be build in USA.
I am more proud of my culture than my religion.
Religion is a faith, but culture is what you created in the past and what you will do in the future.
Still we have minds and hands to create as we did and do everywhere.
To: Vagharshag & Karekin
Wise & appropriate words from Vagharshag to Karekin. We have to be able to differentiate between forgiveness and legal restitution. In Ancient Israel restitution was 4 times the original damage. This is why Zacheas (the Chief Tax Collector) promised to repay x 4. We are not asking 4 x.
G
Happy Easter to everyone!
As usual, the very vocal Gayane, has spoken her mind and asked for 'the plan'.
The Turkish State is using trickery even right now with these so called Protocols. This is not 95 y/o. The Azeris butchered their Armenian residents as recently as 20 yrs. ago. That wasn't enough another 7,000 lives were lost in this recent War. It didn't just happen between 1870 to 1923...it is still happening. Erdogan threatened to deport today's Armenians from Turkey. Nakhichevan Armenians got kicked out & evidence of centuries long Armenian presence hasbeen/is being erased. These are not friendly events. They are the result of ancient hatred, carried into the 21st century, on innocent people.
Yes it would be great to have peace...but no peace can happen when the fire is still being fueled, as we speak! We don't need university degrees to see and hear anti humanity facts.
How About British who have Christain Monarchy,
Written to British Poets, Not their MPs
Armenians suffered more than Christ did.
We don't celebrate Eastors
We pray for smashed innocent skulls
Dried in Der Zor desertes.
God forgot us.
Please British Poets,
Feel with Armenian Genocide.
May be you don't pray
Put you have (yours) Poetian Gods.
May be those can hear Us!
Remember
Armenian Genocide remembrance date April 24, 1915-1923.
British ignoring our genocide,
They think about their profits and not human rights.
The protocols?
Turkey initiated the protocols?
Switzerland initiated the protocols?
Armenia initiated the protocols?
The oil hungry west without regard to the truth initiated the protocols.
TAKIYA - lying for Islam, that is exactly what all the denialists are doing here (takiya - and that is what one journalist in Hurriyet said Erdogan was doing when he denied the Armenian genocide).
Shine on Darwin!
Thank you for so succinctly reminding everyone of the connection to oil. It has always been about the oil. While Armenians and Turkey duke it out over historical claims there is greedy handy rubbing in some dark (and some not so dark) corners of the world as they wait for the bling to go ka-ching.
Who knew that going green and leaving a smaller carbon footprint had anything to do with helping Armenia!
REPARATIONS.
PRESENT OR EVEN FURTHER AHEAD TURKISH GOV.DIPLOMACY IS BASED ON "power diplomacy"...ESPECIALLY S AS THE TWO (OF) major world powers still support ,back them up.Namely U.K. U.S.A.
The MOMENT THESE LET GO OF TURKEY (as DETERRENT FORCE 0 in the area,their BULLISH STANCE WLL CRUMBLE OVERNIGHT.CONTEMPORARY POWER STRUGGLE IN THE AREA,that is the Middle East, Near East and further to East...I R A N IS ONE REASON THIS BULLY OF A STATE FEELS SELF-CONFIDENT.
To cede to Tiny Armenia and well..... its large Diaspora, what they press for is tantamount to SUBMISSION.they will not do that.However...
THEY MAY ,AS ABOVE INDICATED...by and by IN THEIR OLD VERY OLD OTTOMAN WILY FASHION give in to very small "Bakhshish" if worse comes to worse..
CASH COMPENSATION TO BE EXPECTED FROM THEM RE BLOOD MONEY ?
IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY.all along 50/60/70 years they ave been receiving FOREIGN AID,MAINLY FROM UNCLE SAM AND THAT IN NON-RETURNABLE LOANS OR HAND OUTS.TO EXPECT THAT THEY COUPH UP ,RATHER IMPOSSILBE.
HOWEVER, SINCE THEIR TWO ABOVE "ALLIES" ARE INDIRECTLY OR DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THEIR "DENIALIST" POSTURE-STANCE AND A VERY IMPORTANT PROOF BEING THAT THEY did not wish to pass the BTC -Baku Tiblis -Ceyhan Oil PIPELINE VIA ARMENIA ( FEW YEARS AGO)-THE SORTEST ROUTE..THEY ARE TO BE CONSIDERED BY ARMENIANS AS SIDING WITH TURKEY AT THE COST OF ARMENIA-ARMENIANS...IN SIMPLE WORDS..THEY ARE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FO THAT ERROR...
NOW THEN , IF AND WHEN SAID TWO BY AND BY ACCEPT THAT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS INTERNATIONALLY A DE FACTO FAIT A COMPLIT-a done act...then they will also soften up..that is when we can ASK THEM TO REVIEW THEIR ERROR(RE PIPELINE) AND "SUGGEST", that they press the Oil companies therein involved-Now paying over 1.5 billion dollars TRANSIT DUTIES TO TURKEY..SET ASIDE A CERTAIN % OF THIS "EASY MONEY" so to speak-after all IT IS VERY EASILY EARNED...TO PAY FOR THE "MONEY FOR BLOOD" they shed of the 1.5 million Armenians to their SURVIVRS HEIRS..
One cannot picture turkey paying out of its Gov. treasury coffers(always emptied) to Armenians....
Above may seem rather strange ,but that is the truth of the matter.TURKS ARE NOT PEOPLE TO ACT LIKE THE GERMANS (PAYING TO JEWS, FOR BLOOD MONEY).one more thing,they will ,IN ORDER TO SHOW THEMSELVES AS COMPROMISING PEOPLE-ESPECIALLY NOW THESE DAYS...
i f a n d when the U.K. and the U.S officially recognize the Armenian Genocide,BEND FURTHER AND ,AS METIONED IN PREVIOUS POST......Always mark my remarks .."avash avash by and by,give small things away.
WHY?don't you remember "Akh Tamar" A DOUBLE OBJECTIVE LY OFFERED CASE.. THAT THOUGH -WITHOUT CROSS ON IT O R accepting that it was armenian built -thence armenian owed on armeian land -built over 1000 yrs ago by king gagik ar tzrouni...now JUST RECENTLY REPAIRING A COUPLE OR SO OTHER SUCH CHURCHES AND EVNE in a few within this year mass to be held...YOU SEE...THEY ARE BY AND BY COMING TO TERMS....
THENCE ,THEY WILL AS A BIG GESTURE -WHICH WILL REALLY MAKE BIG IMPACT ON WORLD PUBLIC OPINION,AGREE TO GIVE "AGHRI DAGH mount Ararat- plus RUINS OF ANI(ALSO TO BE REPAIRED WITH DOUBLE -INTENTION BOTH TO CARESS ARMENIANS AND ALSO AS BOOSTING TOURISM ..
So is their mindset.AND IT WORKS WITH EUROPEANS AND FURTHER AWAY THEIR COUSINS...
AVE IN MIND THAT THOUGH COLD WAR IS OVER...THE WEST VERY MUCH SUSPECTS THAT RRRRUSIA WILL AGAIN BE A MENACE?????
WAIT A ND SEE, AS THE BRITS SAY...
Jamgoch is right....the west will step on anyone to achieve its goals (oil) and asking Armenians to submit to their wishes via the protocols and using Turkey to do it, without offering Armenians ANYTHING in return is just plain abusive. But, there is a delicate line here....comply and lose many things including history and truth, or challenge it and risk being destroyed. It's a very tough position to be in, but even though Armenians are not running the show, they need to work this deal to get as much out of it - in writing - as possible, since they can't stop it. I'm sure Sarkisyan knows very well that war and conflict need to be avoided at all costs, because they have even more potential for pain and suffering for Armenians...and noone wants that kind of outcome. As for a suggestion on how to allow truth to prevail, I really believe that since so many people on all sides know the truth, it can't be artificially hidden w/ lies and propaganda. At the same time, screaming 'murderer' and demanding recognition is not helpful or productive. I live in the US, and if a native American knocked on my door today, demanding that I hand my land/house over to him because it belonged to his ancestors 100, 200 or 300 years ago...what would I do? How would I react? This is the situation people in Turkey are faced with now. They, like me, might want to do something, the right thing, but how is that even possible? I agree that at the very least, Turkey will apologize for the crimes of its predecessor govt., but equally important, Armenians might need to consider that the actions of their revolutionary and political societies were not well received by the ruling classes, and in fact, were used to justify the implementation of genocide. All Armenians suffered as a result as all were blamed for the actions of a few. In the US, Japanese Americans were placed into concentration camps during WWII and Janet Reno ordered the anarchist/revolutionaries of the Waco compound to be destroyed...and this is in recent memory. Power does not like to be challenged...no matter how despotic...this is a rule of history, and rats trapped in a corner will always fight like rats to stay alive. Armenians, as a small people with little power and limited leverage, need to wage their battles intellectually if they want to win, but not in a hostile, racist or angry way, because by descending into bad behavior, truth and fact can easily become overshaddowed by the distraction the bad behaviors or words create. This is counterproductive. So, no one is saying that anyone should forget or dismiss our truths, but just as someone who has been wronged in his life cannot stop walking forward, neither can Armenians. History moves on...
From 'How Taquiyya Alters Islamic Rules of War" by Raymond Ibrahim, the Middle East Quarterly. "Taqiyya presents a range of ethical dilemmas. Anyone who truly believes that God justifies and, through his prophet's example, even encourages deception will not experience any ethical qualms over lying. Consider the case of 'Ali Mohammad, bin Laden's first "trainer" and long-time Al-Qaeda operative. An Egyptian, he was initially a member of Islamic Jihad and had served in the Egyptian army's military intelligence unit. After 1984, he worked for a time with the CIA in Germany. Though considered untrustworthy, he managed to get to California where he enlisted in the U.S. Army. It seems likely that he continued to work in some capacity for the CIA. He later trained jihadists in the United States and Afghanistan and was behind several terror attacks in Africa. People who knew him regarded him with "fear and awe for his incredible self-confidence, his inability to be intimidated, absolute ruthless determination to destroy the enemies of Islam, and his zealous belief in the tenets of militant Islamic fundamentalism."Indeed, this sentence sums it all up: For a zealous belief in Islam's tenets, which legitimize deception in order to make God's word supreme, will certainly go a long way in creating "incredible self-confidence" when lying.Yet most Westerners continue to think that Muslim mores, laws, and ethical constraints are near identical to those of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Naively or arrogantly, today's multiculturalist leaders project their own worldview onto Islamists, thinking a handshake and smiles across a cup of coffee, as well as numerous concessions, are enough to dismantle the power of God's word and centuries of unchanging tradition. The fact remains: Right and wrong in Islam have little to do with universal standards but only with what Islam itself teaches—much of which is antithetical to Western norms. It must, therefore, be accepted that, contrary to long-held academic assumptions, the doctrine of taqiyya goes far beyond Muslims engaging in religious dissimulation in the interest of self-preservation and encompasses deception of the infidel enemy in general. This phenomenon should provide a context for Shi'i Iran's zeal—taqiyya being especially second nature to Shi'ism—to acquire nuclear power while insisting that its motives are entirely peaceful. Nor is taqiyya confined to overseas affairs. Walid Phares of the National Defense University has lamented that homegrown Islamists are operating unfettered on American soil due to their use of taqiyya: "Does our government know what this doctrine is all about and, more importantly, are authorities educating the body of our defense apparatus regarding this stealthy threat dormant among us?" After the Fort Hood massacre, when Nidal Malik Hasan, an American-Muslim who exhibited numerous Islamist signs which were ignored, killed thirteen fellow servicemen and women, one is compelled to respond in the negative. This, then, is the dilemma: Islamic law unambiguously splits the world into two perpetually warring halves—the Islamic world versus the non-Islamic—and holds it to be God's will for the former to subsume the latter. Yet if war with the infidel is a perpetual affair, if war is deceit, and if deeds are justified by intentions—any number of Muslims will naturally conclude that they have a divinely sanctioned right to deceive, so long as they believe their deception serves to aid Islam "until all chaos ceases, and all religion belongs to God."Such deception will further be seen as a means to an altruistic end. Muslim overtures for peace, dialogue, or even temporary truces must be seen in this light, evoking the practical observations of philosopher James Lorimer, uttered over a century ago: "So long as Islam endures, the reconciliation of its adherents, even with Jews and Christians, and still more with the rest of mankind, must continue to be an insoluble problem."In closing, whereas it may be more appropriate to talk of "war and peace" as natural corollaries in a Western context, when discussing Islam, it is more accurate to talk of "war and deceit." For, from an Islamic point of view, times of peace—that is, whenever Islam is significantly weaker than its infidel rivals—are times of feigned peace and pretense, in a word, taqiyya."
I just took a course on the Middle East. These articles are worth reading to understand the Middle East and its people. Yes, we westerners should learn about the "others" and understand they think and act differently. You can read the rest of the article which was very informative.
The link to the article is:
www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war
A very interesting article worth reading.
Karekin,
The only reason I stepped into this discussion is your views that seem bizarre and lop-sided to me, I’m sorry to say. What you appear to be doing is suggesting forced parity, forced juxtaposition on disparate parties, criminal vs victim, historical justice vs romanticized pacifism. Allow me to go over them one by one.
Maintaining peace at all cost and respecting other human beings is a good place to start.
No one argues this conventional truth, but why are you addressing your appeal to Armenians? Who rejects establishment of diplomatic relations? Who closed the border with the Republic of Armenia? Who imposed the blockade on Armenia? Who continuously ties the issue of Armenian-Turkish rapprochement with an issue that has no correlation with it whatsoever (read: Nagorno-Karabakh)? If you’re concerned with maintaining peace, who, in your view, demonstrates obviously bellicose behavior based on actions above? Why wouldn’t you call on the Turks as much passionately to maintain peace by acknowledging the truth and respect millions of slaughtered Armenians by repenting, which in and of itself would be a good place to start building mutual respect?
To demand human rights or historical truths while simultaneously insulting someone’s ethnicity or humanity is not the way to achieve those goals...Avoiding war, persecution, violence and aggression are the best ways to proceed.
Correct. But most Armenians direct their criticism towards the denialist Turkish State, and not someone’s ethnicity or humanity. Similarly, no one of Armenians has ever called for war, persecution, violence and aggression. As you may know, this is not a typically Armenian behavioral characteristic. You must have mistaken Armenians with you know whom. Besides, if you think humanity also exists with ethnic Turks, why wouldn’t they express it fully and unambiguously when it apologizing to Armenians? What is in a mere apology that could possibly derogate their humanity?
Every human being makes mistakes—large or small—and even the most righteous, good person can be made to do bad or evil things to another.
Crimes against humanity by definition do not fall under the category of trivial human errors, my friend. In the prevailing majority of similar cases, they’re thoroughly planned, centrally-executed and state-instigated crimes. Just to give you an example, your efforts to minimize and belittle crimes of such a magnitude to just ‘mistakes’ may be considered a human mistake. Good persons could be made to do evil things, but they’re also capable of apologizing to their victims. Besides, no one has made Turks to commit a widespread race annihilation of the Armenians: they acted on the territory of their own state, within the boundaries of their own state authority, following their own government’s orders, using their own military and repressive force, and releasing thousands of criminals from prison with the aim of helping slaughter the Armenians.
So, endlessly portraying Armenians as ’saintly’ beings and Turks as ‘devils’ is equally wrong and unproductive.
Dead wrong. Turks as a nation are not portrayed as all devils, and Armenians are not all saints. It is the denialist Turkish State that is perceived by Armenians as devil.
If Turks are to be demonized for 1915, then what about the Arabs who conquered Armenia before the Turks? or the Persians? or the Mongols? or the Russians?
Dead wrong. None of these occupier-nations has committed anything close to the mass extermination of the Armenian civilization as under the Ottoman Turkish regime. Hamidian and CUP atrocities were unprecedented in the Armenian history.
And, let’s not forget that from the first arrival of Turks in the 11th C until 1915, Armenians did quite well… Yes, there were bumps in the road, but compared w/ how people lived elsewhere on the planet, Armenians were living very, very well there.
Dead wrong. Massive historical evidence demonstrates that the most horrific in terms of civilizational destruction, forced conversion to Islam, and loss of human life were the centuries under the Seljuk-Mongol-Turkish oppression as compared to any other historical periods in the Armenian history. It is the ability of the Armenians to survive that played role in preserving their ethnic identity and civilizational uniqueness. As for the Ottoman centuries, the Armenian millet has been heavily and unbearably taxed as compared to the Muslims. Prohibitions to run for the office, be elected or occupy government positions were strictly observed. Forced military service of Armenians in regiments that were thrown on the front lines against various enemies like canon meat was widespread. Constant pogroms and incursions of Muslim Turks, Kurds, and Circassians on Armenian-populated villages throughout the country were innumerable. It was far from being a good life.
If Turkey can treat Armenia (and Armenians) as equal human beings, and Armenia the same in return, a lot of good can come from it.
The essence of the matter that’s being discussed is not about treating Armenians or Turks as equal human beings. Of course Armenians admit this universal approach. The essence is in acknowledging the truth and repentance for crimes against humanity. As long as Turks deny this they are being perceived as denialist and distrustful state.
The truth, like cream in a bowl of milk, will always rise to the top if left undisturbed, where it can be savored by those who appreciate it. At this point, the pot has been stirred quite a bit…let’s wait a bit for the cream to rise before shaking things again and creating a useless mess. It’s already happening…. but patience is required by everyone, on all sides of the matter.
Who exactly ‘disturbed’ the truth for 95 years that Turks must have long come up with? Don’t you think that truth can venture into being continuously denied and ultimately forgotten if undisturbed? Most Armenians believe that Turks would gladly put the truth into oblivion had it not been the efforts of Armenian advocacy groups, foreign governments, and international organizations that pressure the Turks to acknowledge their history. Exactly how many more decades you mean by ‘a bit’ that Armenians and the international community need to wait? Time has come…
Hi, Karekin,
I’ve got just one question for you after reading your comments. If you’re so passionate, as your comments clearly demonstrate, about maintaining peace at all cost between Armenians and the Turks and the need to respect human beings on both sides, I should assume that you’re making appeals for the same values in the Turkish discussion forums and blogs as well, shouldn’t I? Could you provide me with a link or links to such forums where your appeals or comments are posted? Otherwise, I'd suspect that you’re calling upon Armenians only to follow these universally-accepted norms or that your appeals to Armenians are not so much pacifist per se but merely futile attempts at mind-tilting.
Curiously,
K
Karekin,
I’m afraid you may end up embarrassing yourself by repeating clichés in these discussion pages. Several commentators responded to you more than once that Armenians DO NOT consider modern-day Turks as murderers; that Armenians DO NOT act in hostile, racist or angry way with regard to modern-day Turks. It is the state-sponsored disinformation, historical distortion and lies of their STATE that we abhor. It is the revisionist and denialist actions of their GOVERNMENT that we abhor. Murderers were their forefathers, do you agree with that? Murderers were Hamidian and Young Turks’ regimes, do you agree with that? Who, in your sober view, is more racist: a Turkish state that had annihilated the whole race or Armenians who demand apologies from the Turks, sometimes irately, I admit?
Further, ‘demanding recognition is not helpful or productive…’ What’s this about? How do you build normal relations with your next-door neighbor without knowing that he recognized his crime and is sorry for it? Why do you think insistence on recognition of a crime is unhelpful and unproductive? Had there not been insistence, do you really think that Turks by themselves would acknowledge their guilt? If you think they would, where have they been for the past 95 years? Sleeping in a bear’s lair? Then what is helpful and productive in your view? Remaining silent and uncomplaining like sheep in a slaughterhouse is helpful and productive?
Some of your unfounded and superficial comparisons with American Indians, Japanese Americans, or Waco compound destruction have been disparaged already in these pages and I’d like to avoid reiterating truisms to these superfluous arguments of yours. Annihilation of a whole human civilization CANNOT be compared with individual, fragmented cases of mistreatment. Even IF in some variations we admit these cases hypothetically could be compared, in a number of cases governments have acknowledged and/or apologized to the victims: German government to the Jews; South African government to African Blacks; US government to Indians and Afro-Americans; French government to the Algerians; Holy See of Vatican for the deaths of the millions during Inquisition; Russian government for the deaths of millions in GULAGs during Stalin’s purges; Cambodian government for the mass murders during the Khmer Rouge regime; and so on and so forth…
I strongly believe that in the case of the Turks, given their evasive policies on recognition, distortive state policy of misinterpretation and disinformation of their citizens with regard to extermination of their Ottoman Armenian citizens, heavy lobbying efforts to prevent Armenian genocide resolutions’ passage world-wide, application of article 301 against all those who dare to speak the truth about the genocide, as well as the ongoing blockade, refusal to establish diplomatic relations, and refusal to open borders with Armenia, it is absolutely imperative not to cease recognition efforts. There’s no doubt in my mind that mainly due to these efforts, and not the Turks’ coming to their senses and their expression of humanity, that Armenians were able to elevate the issue to the international level where the Turkish denial of crime is becoming less and less effective.
It is true that power, no matter how despotic, does not like to be challenged. But power is NOT the unique determinant in international relations or in people-to-people relations, for that matter. In a great number of other historical instances, impoverished, barely alive ‘rats’ that were ‘trapped in a corner’ were able to prevail due to resilient spirit, moral legitimacy, and steadfast belief in their just cause.
Armenians have been wronged in their life, but we never stopped walking forward. There’s an international magazine called “Yerevan” published in LA. I’m amazed to see how many talented Armenian individuals all over the world have advanced to influential positions in the government, academia, arts and sciences, business and commerce. The remnant of our historical homeland, the Republic of Armenia, with all its diseases of growth, is gradually becoming more heard on the international arena. We never stopped walking forward throughout our history, especially during the most dreadful Seljuk-Turkish centuries.
And, understanding what you mean by ‘history moves on,’ well, history should not move on for the Armenians alone, it should move on for the Turks, too.
Happy Easter to All Christians:
David: Answer 1) All Armenians were relocated to other parts of the empire were travelling to southern parts. Some certainly and unfortunately parished.. No one denies that. Those relocated to other parts of the empire, some came back to resettle to their lands and all lands were given back to them.
Answer 2) Yes and again and once again Armenians are used against the Turks by the western powers. french recognizes because they are the ones who used Armenians against Turks and the government. This is started with the french schools in Harput, Diyarbakir and many other parts of the Empire in 1800s. Before then there were not even one issues between the rulers Turks and Armenian minority.
Gayane: I am an idiot because I do not accept your ideas.. It is normal to discuss and say I disagree with you. You disagree with me so you are an idiot!!!! I do not think so. You do not need to push up on some one to accept your own ideas. This is what is happening in the world that anger is increasing from your side because many people start to ask this very question in the world and even Glendale, California.
You get so angry if some one objects to your ideas and thoughts.
Fedayi: I am from Istanbul and it was Konstantiniye, or eastern roman empire' s capital. remember Istanbul was Eastern roman empire. TUrkish people brought Armenians to istanbul as well. 2000 years old Karabagh is now called Arsthak-if spelled correctly- by the Armenians. What do you say to that.
Darwin: whom ever started the first initiative is great either Armenians and/ or Turks. does not matter..It started.. prejudice is at its peak because of not knowing each other...
Everyone has their own story as the Israelis and Palestenians are .. A coin has 2 facades... You ask Israelis they are right and you ask Palestenians they are right..
Garabed: you talk as 7000 armenians killed but not even mentioned about Hocali massacre of azeris and people had to leave their homes and land in karabagh.. Azeris lost in the war and winners are Armenians that does not make Armenians are right...
Vargahrshag/ Boyaciyan: we are proud of our past. Turks are fair people.. We are happy that many Armenians are thrieved in the Turkish rule for 1000 years.
The plan is to start the dialogue and then get people together and see and understand each other.. Prejudice starts with not knowing others and claiming their land as yours. The world acknowledges the territories /boundries.
I see here that you want war to change the territorial claims but I do not want a war but if you start we will defend it. we do not prefer that because war only brings tears to both people.
If I missed anyone apologies.. Again Happy Easter to all Christians and Armenians.
I do want to visit your country, Armenia, Cities like Gumru, Erivan and Sevan lake. Hopefully some day but I do not know if I can visit as a Turk. With above I am bit reluctant though......
Kurt, Istanbul
My previous comment above should have read "greedy hand rubbing". Sorry.
Thank you to Jamgochian, Karo, Armen G. and Narek for addressing our friend Karekin's confusing, self-deprecating pacifism.
Curious indeed, Karo. One wonders what could create such a shame-based, self-effacing mentality which seeks to maintain peace at all cost lest one offends the more powerful aggressor. Could it be centuries of oppression followed by deliberate extermination of one's people? This placating-peace-keeping is nothing new to Armenians. We were forced to do it for years to survive under Ottoman rule. We are adept at getting along and getting on with things despite unfair circumstances and second-class treatment.
Karekin, the time to be afraid is over. The time to be ashamed is over. This is the time for clarity and strength in voice and action. This is the luxury that we in the diaspora have as citizens of open, democratic societies. Reach out to your Turkish friends in your neighborly fashion. Nothing wrong with that. But don't ask Armenians to move on from the crimes of the Turkish State, past and present. How can we maintain dignity and self-identity without standing our ground firmly?
We are ready to live as peaceful neighbors with those who are willing to maintain verifiable peaceful policies with us. This is not too much to ask. It is not about being "demanding" or "screaming murderer." It's about security and parity and the wisdom gained from knowing our adversary's duplicitous history.
As stated by someone previously, an unequivocal acknowledgment of the facts and a sincere statement of regret is a great place to start the peace process. I for one am not looking for one-to-one reparations for all those injured in the genocide. But open trade across borders, secure travel and energy pipelines and monetary reparations to the Armenia government as the official representatives of the Armenian people would be a great start. Yes, let Turkey rectify things with money, lots and lots of money to shore up our little Armenia and its struggling economy. And if I can dream...give us Masis and Ani and Van.
Turks are not devils, but Armenians are not their door mats either.
To: Armen G.
Very well put. Karekin needs a break also...after all he is still an Armenian!
G
Ancient,
There never were 3M Armenians in the whole of the Ottoman Empire. Not even 1.5M based on official Ottoman census and Church records. Then again, I know your kind is allergic to facts and figures.
Now that you brought up Xenophone, let me tell you what he observed while his army was marching through Eastern Anatolia. I do not recall if he actually uses the term "Armenian", but he describes exteremely barbaric and wild people in the area who were very warlike and any attampt to communicate with them failed. There were other uncomplimentary details. Yes, a very distinct culture indeed.
Gayene,
You know darn well what Erdogan should be man enough to apologize for. Turkish Armenians are not his hostages.
Sylva.... get help!
We Turks also tried to exterminate the Chinese. That's why they built the Great Wall.
Oh, and the Byzantines!! How can one forget?!
But I suggest you all to accuse Mongolia as well. Like a couple of millenia ago, they massacred all Eurasia. No?
Why is no one doing anything about Mongolia? They pose a bigger threat than we do. Funny what some people say about Turkishness :)
Well, I understand all of your comments and criticisms, but please remember...what I said was this - that demanding recognition is not helpful. I am not saying we don't deserve recognition, of course we do, just that if you think the act of 'demanding' is going to achieve it, think again. No one freely gives something to anyone in the face of a 'demand'. So, think again, why are you begging/demanding something that you already know to be true? It's like demanding someone to acknowledge that he breathes air....of course, such a demand is a huge waste of time. On the other end, just because the govt of Turkey might say it doesn't recognize there is a moon in the sky, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Similar for the genocide. Do you comprehend what I mean, here? They only way they will reach 'nirvana' on this issue is for them to arrive at it themselves. And, I believe it will happen and this is in the process of happening right now. When their political leaders want the country to mature and face its own history, then it will happen. Yes, Armenians can and should be of help, but just as loudly screaming to a child's face that 1 + 1 = 2 doesn't make him learn that fact, so it is w/ the genocide. In fact, Armenians should be less worried about the Turks, than about those who are manipulating Turkey (and Armenia) for their own goals and aims. Both are being forced into making decisions that are not in their ultimate interests, but serve outside, greedy and evil powers. Throughout history, divide and conquer has worked its magic very well, every single time. This is no exception. Pay attention to history and learn from it, people. for you all appear to have alot to learn...not about propaganda -based history and easy slogans, but real history. You must learn to see Armenian history - the full 10,000 years of it - in the proper context...not just in terms of 1915. 1915 is blinding and distracting, even you, from some very important truths, and this is making you and the nation vulnerable in many other ways. if i can see it, so can others who are working very hard to obliterate today's armenia for their own ends, and you should look well beyond turkey for the sources of those actions.
Someone suggested Yerevan Journal,Open Y-tube 31th of March
Forget about First genocide and watch the second,
I am shocked to today.
I think one should diagnose and treat the genes of criminals.
I am shocked
Shocked
And shocked..........................................................
Who see the film he will never sleep!
Internet is a real invention will change humanity.
Another tall tale for my friend Kurt.
Khanum Palootzian
1
Born 1894 - Village of Darman, Vilayet of Erzerum, Turkey
It was in May 1915 that the Turkish Government uprooted us from
all our villages
sheep, cows, fuel, horses, donkeys, chickens, our furniture, beds,
foods, and all belongings were collected and forcefully confiscated.
They didn’t even give us one piastre
My stepfather, when they were going to kill him, pleaded that they
let him pray before dying. As he knelt and prayed, they took a
sword and cut off his head. They marched us into the mountains,
fields and gorges to die of hunger. All the Armenian men and boys
were killed with axes and swords. And all the women and girls were
killed through thirst, hunger and an even worse fate that I don’t wish
to say. Pregnant women were eviscerated, their stomachs cut open
with swords and their babies ripped out, thrown against the rocks. These I saw with my own eyes.
In the summer heat, we were driven for days and weeks, without food and water, with our
swollen bare feet bleeding from cuts. When we saw water, we ran to drink only to be beaten back
by gendarmes on horseback who carried large wooden cudgels. We were beaten fiercely for just
trying to drink water. We were led through the mountains for two months. On the way, many
women couldn’t take it and, holding their babies in their arms, simply threw themselves from cliffs
into the Tigris River. The Turk gendarmes singled out the prettier girls and women and took them
for themselves. Many, myself included, smeared mud on our faces so as not to appear attractive.
I even closed one eye so as to appear blind and limped. With this and other tricks I managed to
escape being taken.
My entire family, my mother, father, sisters, and brother who was not quite ten years old,
were left as unburied corpses, along mountains, gorges, and fields, left as food for wild dogs.
Darman consisted of a group of seven villages. All were uprooted - that’s several thousand
people. By the time we reached Harput, weeks later, some 45 miles away, there remained only a
few hundred. We knew they were leading us to die, we thought probably to dump us at sea, for
none of us were allowed to leave the convoy nor allowed to drink water or even look for food. If
they saw anyone leaving the group the gendarmes immediately killed them.
2 and tried to destroy us all. Our houses, farms,3 as payment for all they took.
1
orphanage in Mezireh-Harpoot was supplied by Sister Kirsten Vind in Denmark in a private letter to R.K. in 1997 wherein she found and
translated a letter by Danish missionary Karen Peterson written in 1920 describing how Khanum came to the orphanage: “Khanun has
experienced very hard trials. She, with her family, including 14 persons, was forced to leave their house and home in one day’s time. After
wandering two months in the mountains she succeeded in escaping and reached the fields outside Mezireh. Pregnant and with a one year old
child strapped to her back she found our orphanage. All that remained of her family was now beside her, On February 3, 1916, she gave birth to
a girl, which she named Diranouhi after her husband Diran, who was killed. Khanum’s first child never recovered after the hardships she had
been through and died within a few months.”
Excerpted from her memoir, taped recorded in June 1972. Additional information regarding Khanum Palootzian’s ordeal and escape to the
2
Harpoot, 40 miles south of Erzerum, and 30 miles south of Erzingan. It’s new name is Baglarpinari and its coordinates are: "39°15'00""N"
(Long), and "40°24'00""E" (Lat.). In 1915 it was a large village of about 330 households located in the district of Kighi, Erzerum Province.
Her native village of Darman had in its environs a cluster of smaller villages. It’s Turkish name was Temran and it’s located 45 miles north of
3
The lowest value coin at the time in Turkey, which was also used in many other countries, and still is today.
Kurt, please re-read my comments. You read me incorrectly.
I do not want war. I want peace, security and dignity for my people. We (Armenians and Turks) have a long way to go in getting to know each other if you think words that advocate for standing for truth are a call to war. They are not. I am one who believes the world already knows the truth about the genocide and I am grateful to receive the recognition of the truth from so many governments around the world. What I want and what would be most-soul-satisfying is if the Turkish State acknowledges the truth. I don't mean we can't begin reconciliation without this. I just don't believe reconciliation can be complete without this.
I do not hate you or any Turk and you have a right to be proud of your accomplishments as a people. I give you that. I ask you to give me the right to own my history without distortion, minimization and denial.
Like you said previously, you have your story and I have mine. I hope we can one day stand shoulder to shoulder, looking at the story and seeing the same thing. For me, forgiveness could then begin. Maybe this is too idealistic, as I think Karekin is trying to say.
Again this is not about devils and angels. This is about basic human dignity.
Hye, I repeat - just another Turkish ploy. And why in an Ankara, Turkey?
Absolutely not!!
Why not in a setting of any of the nations of the world where the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians is recognized - a civilized setting - in the whole wide world and not,- of all places in the the capital of the leading denialist, the guilty nation of a Turkey....
Bully Turkey - acts as a bully again, and again and again - and the world abides by an obvious bully! Wake up world, morality is being ignored!
Bullies - 'winners' of the Genocides they perpetuate - murderers, torturers, rapists, and child kidnappers, and more - today 'winners'
"Losers" in the Genocides of the 20th century all the victims - all those tortured, slain, kidnapped, women/children burned alive in churches - and all the survivors who had to live with the vile memories - the losers!
So, how to allow the 'winner' Turkey (to date) to call the shots for when, where, and how any discussions shall proceed with those whose forebears were the survivors children, grandchildren, and more, there great-grandchildren - never to forget what Ottoman Turks and all their
subsequent leaderships - even into 2010 - now still seek the eliminations of Armenians - still claim the Armenian lands and culture as Turkish.
bullies = winners
victims = 'losers'?
Yet further, in the whole world , by not ending the cycle of the the Genocides - are we ALL not 'losers' ?
for the cycle of Genocides will continue... Whomever, wherever, whenever, shall be the next Genocide victim... waiting to happen and the civlized world stance is - nothing to end the cycle of Genocide.
But yet, in all these civilized societies none of them 'tolerate/allow' the crimes of murder, crime of kidnapping, crime of rapes, religious intolerance, and more...
But yet, when as these same crimes are forced upon a victim nation - these same civilized nations will not come together to end the cycle of what we now label as 'Genocides' - or do we give it this label - ignoring the horrors.
So, now the Sudanese are attempting to deny their Genocide of the
Darfurians - their model is the 'denialist' Turks!!
And the world is unable to bring these despots - of convoluted mentalities,
unable to be one with the civilized nations - yet still able to commit any and all they Genocides - undeterred agains the the victims - and again, we are all the losers - humanity the losers...
Manooshag
ABOVE,WHAT ANOYMOUS WRITES IS A TYPICALLY CONCEIVED,RATHER CONCOCTED UP VIEWPOINT THAT IS CURRENTLY BEING DIFFUSED/DISSEMINATED FOR A PUBLIC THAT IS OBSESSED WITH RELIGION-WISE ISSUES.
TRTH OF THE MATTER-FOR ALL TO SEE,WATCH COMPREHEND THE REAL LIVING EXAMPLES:-
I R A N ,a republic that is ,what is more so declared"ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF
IRAN" Pray tell me reply to this post; How come then, there are no such terrorist cells in that republic no terrorist acts directed in any country-albeit the only one being Lebanon,where the locals -viz. Northern part of ebanon ,in conflct ,nay warfare with Israel-that is openly a war like struggle...nothing to do with what other moslem such are doing?
Iran is the living example that the above concocted up stories belong to those who make them up.One more LIVING TRUTH EXAMPLE...
WITH NEIGHBOUR A R M E N I A ,,,IRAN is so neighbourly, so friendly and in fact benevolent, while blockaded by the other two neighbours Azerbaijan and Turkey..Iran did not spare any effort to come to aid of Armenia.it is said very commonly in Yerevan that day in day out hundreds of trucks are shuttling between the two countries transprting goods toe ach other...
So that B...sh is food of thought to those who don't know above reality...
A STOUTLY ISLAM-RELIGIOS COUNTRY AND PUBLIC-YET VERY UNDERSTANDING WITH CHRISTIAN NEIGHBOUR A R M E N I A ...THEIR PREVIOUS PRESIDENT AYAAT OLLLH KHATAMI WENT AD RENDERED IS RESPECTS AT TSITASRNAKAPERT SEVERAL YEARS AGO...
THIS TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE AFOREMENTIONED TWO BELICOSE TWO STATES-IN ESTENSION THEIR HARD HEADED DIPLOMATS...
ENOUGH OF THOSE LIES....
IT IS NOT RELIGION...AN ERSON COMMUNITY PEOPLE HAS THE RIGHT TO WORSHIP WHATEVER RELIGION THEY BELIEVE IN..
IT IS THE RESECTIVE COUNTRYS' EDUCATION-NOT NECESSARY RELIGIOS-COLD BE LAY,,,THAT HAS BROUGHT UP A GENERATION FULL OF WRONG BELEFS...LIKE THE NAZI GERMANY'S YOUTH ...THEN...AND NOW TURKEY'S..
PLEASE DO NOT MIX RELIGION WITH BEHAVIOUR-STANCE...
Dear Boyajian -- I believe none of us could have said better. Very convincing and honest words. Thank you.
Pontus – Actually, you’re not far from truth. Turkish nation is essentially an amalgamation of Seljuk and Mongol nomadic tribes that originated in the steppes of wider Central Asia and scorched numerous developed ancient civilizations in Asia Minor in the 11th-13th centuries AD.
No one argues that Mongol invasions on Eurasia were destructive, but Mongols destroyed other, more civilized, nations in order to settle in their hands. Whereas in 1915-1921 their descendants, Ottoman Turks, exterminated in the most barbaric ways and on orders of a central Turkish government the whole ancient civilization of THEIR OWN Ottoman Armenian citizens.
Also, I don’t know what they teach you in schools (apparently what caring for other peoples’ lives Turks have been throughout their history), but modern-day state of Mongolia is NOT the same Mongol khanate known from the past.
" Facts:
The Armenian genocide did happen and there are ton's of documents,historical facts,pictures etc.
Turkey being a muslim nation will never,never,never recognise the Armenian Genocide.
Americans Politicians are brought off every year before April 24 in America to stay quiet regarding the armenian Genocide by Powerful Turkish Lobby in America.
I did not know Turkey is such a powerful country that can buy off America and the rest of Europe to deny the TRUTH of the Armenian Genocide.
Once again money and politics are bigger than the killing of 1.5 million Armenian children,women and men. I guess the western world can really bow down and hold Turkish loppy-pop for support to sustain western civilization. "
ThankYou all , My grandparents were survivors of the genocide and I still cry.
To all interested in this ongoing discussion, you must read Christopher Hitchens article on Turkish Denial posted this morning April 5, 2010 at Slate.com. Very gratifying to me to read the thoughts of someone who is neither Armenian or Turkish weigh in on the issue.
Narek, Armen G, Boyajian, Darwin, Vagharshak, Gary.. Thank you all for your comments.. havess galisa when i read your comments.. Excellent posts...
Karekin jan.... inch asem tsavt tanem.. I feel you.. i know you feel me.. but when put together it seems like we feel differently when it comes to the question about Armenians and Turks...Your idea of letting the Turkish govt come with terms on their own time will never serve justice to the Armenians.. they will never do it.. as I said in my first post, they had 95 years to apologize and start on the rpocess of reconciliation but all we got is more grief, more denial, more lies, more money spent on covering the truth and more Turkish citizen like Kurt who supports the misinformed and misled history of their govt... it is good to dream.. however, only dreaming and not acting will never take us where we want to be...
Kurt, like i said.. your history and your story does not reflect the truth; hence it is voided in my book and if you wish to continue to push your denial without giving a chance to go beyond your blocked brain filled with full of lies and misinformation will not give you a strong position on this matter...you represent the colony of those who side with Turkish govt...i wish you can learn from these individual Turks whom I have great deal of respect and may God protect them from your evil Govt because they decided to stand up for the truth ...please see the list and understand that the list will grow.. whether you like it or not..
Professional Cengiz Aktar
Professor Ahmed Incel
Political Analyst Baskin Oran
Journalist Ali bayrmoglu
JEMAL PASHA's GRANDSON, Journalit Hasan Jemal
Writer Temel Demirer
Turkish Pariamentarian Osman Ozcelik
Editor Ragip Zarakolu
The Eight President of Turkey- Turgut Ozal and many many more
All these Turks are telling you Kurt from Instanbul that Genocide happened and they are apologizing it.. Learn from your own intellectuals...
Gayane
Could anyone refer me to an Internet link, if it exists, re: a sociological poll conducted in Turkey, beased on which roughly 60% of the Turks did not identify themselves as being of Turkish origin. A friend of mine who travels there frequently assured me there was such a poll. If this so in reality, then I understand why their government sttubornly retains controversial Article 301 of the Penal Code. If repelled, millions of people will reveal their non-Turkic and non-Muslim identity.
Dear Boyajian..
Thank you so much for the article.. I have to say.. it gratified me as well.. a great deal... excellent article.. I even posted a comment to say thank you to the author for writing that article.. i will be sharing this with all of my friends as well...
Gayane
Just read it. Christopher Hitchens’ article is available at http://www.slate.com/id/2215445/
Anahit jan...
Exellent Point... I would love to see that myself...
Show me that most people living in Turkey have Turkish origin....
Like we said in the past..it would not be a surprise if the huge number number of the population end up having an ARmenian origin if there is a DNA testing.....
Thank you
Gayane
Who is Greg Sarkisian, and why on earth did he write that there are some Diasporans "who have married Moslems and converted to Islam"?
Who is Greg Sarkisian? Well, for starters, you could read the editor's note on top.
As for Diasporans who have converted to islam... there are some of those, you know. Not mentionning it does not mean it doesn't exist! You can't deny the truth for ever. Even Turkey seems to have understood it.
http://www.slate.com/id/2249825/pagenum/all/#p2
This link is for the Hitchens article dated today April 5, 2010. The link provided by Armen is for Hitchens article posted on April 6, 2009. That's last year's article. A good one too.
Dear Dave,
It is very unfortunate but Greg is right when he said that there were Armenians who married Muslims and converted.. They had no choice if they wanted to survive...That is in the past.. I would imagine any Armenian with his or her right mind would not marry a Muslim in modern world but then again who knows??? ...I hope not... ????
However, that said.. I think Greg did an excellent job writing this letter.. That was a very nice to do...even though many would say it is just waste of time cause Turkey will not budge.. still.. thank you for doing that.......
Gayane
Sita jan.. I agree with you 100%.
It is just unfortunate and hurtful to think that they can put human lives out for sale like that... I call upon all govt to stand up to Turkey and shut them up...including our own United States of America
Gayane
Not a word about reparations, nor about restoration of our lands to us. Not good.
Way to go Peter. And thank you so much for translating Armenian Golgotha. My reading in Armenian is not as good as 50 yrs. ago.
To FM of Turkey only FM of Armenia should respond. We should remain silent to any rhetoric relating to the Armenian genocide. Enough words are said.
Besides that, we give a precedent for Turkey to claim that dialog has been established. And the world will say his part: "Let us wait and see the historical rapprochement".
Greg, There are some Muslim background nationalities, where converted back to Christianity and stay as "Armenians"...one more thing, we do not beg Turks to recognize our Genocide.
The reality of Armenian Genocide accepted by the most "civilized nations" of the world, and there will be no "U TURN"
Dear Garen...
Ayo.. that part was missed.. agreed.. lav kliner vor aser..bayts de ova lsogha.. ??
Ehhhh.. you think that letter will get to him? they may burn it or rip it before it gets to Davutoghlu... but at least etqan el grela... de vochinch.. i am sure he realized that he missed that chunk from his letter.. maybe he can write a "Part II"...
Gayane
can anybody tell me how you are planning to achieve your greater armenia?
i mean, seriously. please explain to me logically how this will happen.
dont tell me "the justice of god will occur and we will get our lands back". give me a plan that you think you could realize your dream.
Sylva-MD-Poetry,
What are you talking about? if armenians knew Islam better than Turks, they would be Muslim by now and would not believe such a nonsense as trinity.
we did not push anybody to get rid of us. they sold themselves to the british. now they are paying for their betrayal to the Ottoman Empire.
anyone who betrays, pays for it. history is a lesson my dear!!! you know it best....
Pontus and Erzurum,
the Turks are great warriors. you are not. this is what really pisses you off. because you are not as strong as Turks, you smear on them by claiming that they are barbarians. this is the tactic that the westerners adopt.
if you cant beat the Turks, at least lie about them and try to ruin their reputation.
pathetic...
Bravo Greg. Your article is excellent.
To one , who calls himself "Kurt" :
- My family name , which , of course I'am proud of , has a turkish background ... or the link to find my true ancestry ... Some 300 years ago , 5000 boys were taken from their families to serve for sultan as a "topchu"... What does that mean ? I'll tell you what : ever since those days , or a little later (when these kinds grew up , revolted against such a slavery and run away from it) , they never returned to their families , resettled among the same ethnic group , founded new "clans" etc. but ... lost their mothers , fathers , brothers and sisters ... and so on and so on ...
Now ... I am talking about 300 years ago and 5000 boys . Can you project this tragedy (loosing ancestral roots , parents and brothers and sisters and bigger , extended families , future as a normal human being , etc. etc.) to the whole Armenian nation ? Have you ever considered to get into one shoes , to try to understand , in what state of mind lives "one lost Armenian" 500 , 300 , 95 years later ? And how much this Armenian can trust you ? Or take your argument at all ? Or forgive you ? Or let it go ? or ... so many more "or"-s ...
I do not consider myself as a any kind of radical viewer from Armenian stand point , but I will recognize friend or enemy by the way (and angle of grimace on the corner of his mouth) he pronounces a word "Armenian" ...
As for the "next" 300 years (I mean the last 300 years) ... We lost once again a home , family etc. etc. etc. ... But once again , we did not lost our memory ...
I don't, at some points, agree with the writer.
1) Hrant Dink wouldn't have written anything differently in his articles had he had a chance to express his thoughts and feelings freely. He would have been able to word them more clearly, true, but his attitude toward the issue would be the same because he lived here. Because this country was the only place he could feel home and despite how misunderstood he was by the nationalists here because they lack a functioning brain, he did not hate Turkey. He was heartbroken for people who he thought he could trust, now are calling him a liar and he had to stand strong to convince them that part of their history is not is not all about glory but caused great pain to people who had been nothing but family to them. This attitude of his have always reminded me of one of my favorite Bible quotes, Matthews 18:21-22.
How governments treat citizens of a country is domestic politics and politics never cover idea of every individual in a country, about issues being dealt. If anyone here thinks what Erdogan said about deporting the so-very-exaggerated number of Armenians back to their homeland was applauded, supported and appreciated by every Turk then you are HIGHLY mistaken. Such an unfortunate moment in modern Turkey's history.
2)"...Armenia for not taking care of those 100,000 citizens who had to beg for their livelihood from the Turk."
Um.. that's called working and it's one of the noblest things on earth those Armenians are doing. It's hard to live in a country with economical difficulties and even harder to go and work in some other country where you are considered as a foreigner, far away from your family and friends. Despite every difficulty they are facing, they didn't choose the easy way which would be stealing but are working with their honor. After all those interviews I read with some of the immigrant workers, I had a feeling that they are, at some degree, happy to be here where scents, sights and tastes feel familiar. I hope they'll stay. I hope their children will grow up here. Call me a dreamer but I'm so badly wishing for Turkey to ease the process for them to apply and get citizenship. Because only when Armenian population here reaches a respectful number, then their voice can be heard. I, as a Turk, can't get the authorities change a broken street lamp on my street without having a support from others living in the same neighborhood. A street lamp! That's how simple it is and you are talking about repairment of schools and churches?!?! Do you know how many historical buildings I pass everyday which had been left to their own fate? You can just politely ask Turkish authorities to do something and expect them to fulfill your demand right away. Sadly, that's not how things work here.
What most of the commentors here don't know is that we are blinded. Since Ataturk gave a big fight to build up a country from whatever remained from Ottoman Empire and the youth of generation of this nation died (not just Turks but Armenians too believe it or not) in battle fields, the dramatic side of the war is still being taught in textbooks. Until a few years ago, accusations against some nations for being traitors giving birth to hatred was not uncommon to see either. Hence, everyone is sensitive about the unity of the land and everyone is angry at Armenians who rebelled and closing their eyes and plugging their ears to facts such as it was an Armenian who gave shape to modern Turkish and worked for years as a supervisor in Turkish Literature Foundation and another Armenian who arranged the national anthem. But I find comments like Gayane's a bit provocative. I feel horrible for what happened in 1915 and so badly hoping that none of my ancestors were involved because it was despicable and even the possibility makes me feel ashamed as a human being. I'm asking for forgiveness, true but I'm not kneeling in front of anyone. When I knock on your door and you refuse me then it means everything you've been fighting for, never really served any purpose at all. It means the only way I can reach you, is changing the past which is not anything an ordinary human being is capable of. It means we can't have a normal conversation ever without hatred interrupting, it means we can't ever stop seeing each other as enemies, it means we'll always give up on better days for what has already been done.
read it or not ,recived it or not ,he knows very well without a letter ,a country like Turkey doesn't want to put her nose down for the Armenian or accept reality ,they always will stay in that mentality thinking themselves a superpower of that region ,for her who is the Armenians .
Today 70 % of Armenian land is under her hands .would we think one day they will return it back ?
I'm not sure if Davutoglu, the self proclaimed scholar/ historian, needs someone to read this to him or if he can actually read? Nice letter but it will go on deaf ears. Turks aren't about reasoning, compassion, understanding, humility, understanding, introspection. They are about opportunity, theft, falsification, low self esteem, master race mentality, oppression, rape, murder etc. They always have been. They always will be.
Armenians not being splintered, working as one and unified in one cause is worth a million of these letters.
Michael is a retired Major in the US army.
I have said this before and I will say this again. We need a program where Armenians, 18 years of age and over, from all corners of the world, can enlist and serve a minimum of two years in the Armenian/Karabagh army.
This would enlarge the army. Make available a reserve of future military fighters in case of future wars who would be ready to go. They would already have the training and understanding of the situation and terrain and current system of the Armenian defense army. Less training time and more combat ready troops. Deter the Azeri's further from fighting a futile war. In return it would also instill the Armenian heritage, culture and language in all who serve. Some will continue to invest and get directly involved in the betterment of Armenia's affairs after serving. Some will stay and marry local Armenians and further populate the region etc. It would be a win win for everyone.
If anyone has any idea on how to start this program especially Michel please do so as it is a no brainer. And if we can be of help please let us know.
I think whatever they do, tactic or not, is good. At least some of the churches are being renovated. At least refugees won't have to worry no more about where they'll send their children to study. At least 10th Century Holy Cross Armenian Church will be back in use even if it's for once a year for now. People will benefit from these acts, it is something.
Dear John,
You hit the bull's eye with your comment.. I could not say it any better...
All the characteristics you described about Turkey is very accurate.. and the funny thing is Murat called me having low self =esteem ...HA.. hillarious...
Murat,
I am happy to see that you read the Armenian articles all day long. Tells me you are very scared and need to know everything that is going on. however, i would recommend to spend less time commenting and more time educating yourself on the history and maybe start accepting that the Genocide happened.. Reading all these articles should have given you some direction..... Why can't you as a Turk stop for a minute and tell yourself why in the world so many Turkish intellectuals started to come out and speak freely about this? Let me give you few names just in case you have not heard about them...
Just so you know.. I have great respect and love for these individuals because they got over their own ignorance, and made a decision that being truthful is the best course of action.. They apologized...May God protect them from your kind and your govt who still believe that Armenians owe Turks and it was Armenians that conquer and caused the Genocide...
JAMAL PASHA's grandon: journalist- Hasan Jemal
Temel Demirer- Writer, Publicist
Osman Ozelik-Turkish Parliamentarian
Ragip Zarakolu- Editor
Cengiz Aktar- Professor
Ahmed Incel- Professor
Baskin Oran- Political Analyst
Ali Bayramoglu-Journalist and many more
Every Turk should follow the steps of these brave men and get over their insecurities and face the truth..
Gayane
Dear ones,
about Moslem Armenians,
I have seen them. there are tens of thousands of them in Syria. They have organised themslves into a tribe: Ashirat al Arman al mouslima ( Tribe of Moslem Armenians. This tribe alone, has 25,000 members. There are many others who are not members of the tribe. The members are the descedants of the boys lost or abducted. The children of abducted girls do not count! This has been founded in Feb. 1998.
They remember their past. Proud of their roots.
Some carry armenians names. In one family I came across 4 little girls with the names: Nanor, Nairi, Armine & Menar!
Then to Mr. Ahmed,
You insist upon having our plan for the Greater Armenia. Well will you put it in action? There is no need for you to know about that plan. Just tke care that you learn the real history of your nation.
G. Sarkissan,
Shad abris. Even if you and others are not read by Mr. Davidouglu, still any one who can declare the truth, has to that. We can not rely on Mr. Nalbandian . He can't say every thing. Who ever can, let him do that.
Newcomer Murat,
The population size of the Armenians within the Ottoman Empire between 1914 and 1915 is a controversial topic. Most estimates by Western scholars agree on the number of Armenians comprising up to 2.5 million. It is the fact that the Ottoman census statistics have maintained constant increase for the Armenian population from the period where between 1894 and 1897 an estimated 300,000 Armenians lost their lives during the Bloody Sultan Hamid massacres. But the census of 1905 hasn’t shown any anomaly of Armenian increases, which suggests that there might have been a fixed quota of Armenian population, and that regardless of the census, there were much more Armenians within the Empire. According to the Turkish author Kâzım Kadri, “During the reign of Abdul Hamid we lowered the population figures of the Armenians... By the order of Abdul Hamid the number of the Armenians deliberately had been put in low figures.” (see: Hüseyin Kâzım Kadri, Balkanlardan Hicaza: Imparatorlugun Tasfiyesi. 10 Temmuz Inkilâbı ve Netayici, Istanbul: Pınar, 1992. Originally published in Ottoman Turkish in 1920 in Istanbul by Islam and Askeri Publishers. p. 126, 133; in the original Ottoman version, p. 116, 123.) Another set of Armenian Patriarchate figures were published in 1913. Their author, Krikor Zohrab, offered an estimate of 2,560,000+ Armenians living in Turkey at the time (see: Marcel Léart (Krikor Zohrab), La Question Arménienne à la lumière des documents, Paris : A. Challamel, 1913) But I presume your type may be obsessively sensitive to facts, figures, and documentary evidence…
As for philosopher Xenophon, (‘Xenophonte’ in old Greek), allow me refresh your historical knowledge of an era when he lived and wrote about Armenians, along with other nations he encountered during their raids into the area (ca.400 BC). Xenophon informs us about Armenia in book four of his Anabasis. He describes at great length how an army of Greek mercenaries had to fight its way back from Babylonia to the Black Sea through Armenia. But I presume your type may be obsessively sensitive to documentary evidence of ancient historians and philosophers… Further, Xenophon gives fine description of village live of the Armenians, mentioning that they were rich in cattle. Their houses were underground structures with an aperture like the mouth of a well by which to enter, but they were broad and spacious below. What has become known to Xenophon and is registered in the world historical records (that Armenians take particular pride of as a being of distinct culture) is that ancient Armenians, having already developed rich and loosely organized village live, already knew how to brew bear. Here’s how Xenophon describes a beverage that he’d never tasted anywhere else:
“There were stores within of wheat and barley and vegetables, and wine made from barley [i.e., beer] in great big bowls; the grains of barley malt lay floating in the beverage up to the lip of the vessel, and reeds lay in them, some longer, some shorter, without joints; when you were thirsty you must take one of these into your mouth, and suck. The beverage without admixture of water was very strong, and of a delicious flavor to certain palates, but the taste must be acquired.” [Source: Anabasis 4.24-26 by Xenophon]
According to Herodotus (Histories, 5.49) and Xenophon, most Armenians at that time were cattle-breeders who roamed with their herds -sheep, cows, horses- between the summer’s and winter’s pasture. Xenophon’s Armenians were a peaceful nation, and it comes as no surprise that Xenophon specifically mentions that their warriors fought with simple weapons, such as slings and arrows [Anabasis by Xenophon).
I’d be interested to know in which passage you got Xenophon’s description of Armenians being ‘extremely barbaric and wild people who were very warlike’ and that ‘any attempt to communicate with them failed.’ You must have mixed up Armenians living in the 1st millennium BC with the newcomer Seljuk-Mongol conquerors in the 11th century AD who, indeed, are known to the whole Eurasia as being extremely barbaric and wild.
I find it very surprising, that Mr. David Grigorian spends his time bombarding people with invitations to 'his" forum, he is now using this opportunity to draw attention to his website, yet when one writes him (as I did) to participate in 'his' so-called forum, he never even bothered to answer.
I draw the readers' attention to an exchange I have had with one of their senior fellows on the Armenian Weekly comment section. The reader can draw his own conclusion as to the type of people we have here pretending to run a forum:
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/02/20/second-annual-pfa-forum-on-armenia-diaspora-relations/ please go down to the comment section to see the exchange.
I have since learned that Mr. Grigorian used very uncouth language in an email exchange over a month ago with a fellow Armenian who raised the same issue with him. I hope the moderators working with the Armenian Weekly will help avoid this same type of fiasco from repeating itself.
To this day, I have not heard from the so-called PFA forum organisers, any expression of regret over the way they have treated fellow Armenians, yet they keep wanting people to read their website and anabashedly advertise freely on any comment section they can find. Why advertise, when you do not want people to come?
Armen Vahramian
To a person by the name Murat:
Even IF all respectable sources (Western, Armenian, etc.) pretend for a split second that there were 1.5 or less Armenian citizens in the Ottoman Turkey, as you personally think, based on your sophisticated knowledge, what could have happened to almost all of them leaving just 60,000-70,000 in modern-day Turkey?
Curiously,
T
This is very good idea! I can send my boys for 2-3 mos time over the summer, so that they can continue their education in the US. What's the age limit to serve the army in Armenia?
Hey, Ahmet oghlu or whatever abusive name has been given you –
Has any Armenian in these pages ever insulted your religion? With your hand on your heart, has any Christina in this or any other discussion ever said anything remotely insulting Islam or your prophet as you just did with regard to the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit? You’re so narrow-minded, ignorant, and uncivilized Turk that it’s beyond your grasp to comprehend the universal truth that by insulting others you first and foremost insult yourself and highlight the primitivism and stupidity of your thinking… Besides, don’t you think that by insulting the Son of God you also insult one of your prophets in the Holy Koran and his mother Mary about whom the whole sura is written, you pathetic moron?!
You did not push anybody to get rid of you? That’s right, you found a simpler solution: you got rid of anybody by yourselves. Any indigenous, ancient nation that the Ottoman Turks enslaved was wiped out by you. But a person like you may be proud of your barbarism, I assume?
Exactly who betrayed whom? Unarmed, impoverished, defenseless men, women, children and the elderly betrayed? And exactly where? On the frontlines with the British, Russians, and others that never passed through the Armenian-populated provinces of the Ottoman Empire?
Turks are great conquerors of other peoples’ lands, looters, scorchers, rapists, mutilators, and genocide-perpetrators that the world-renowned French writer Victor Hugo has described based on what the civilized Europeans have seen in horror from 11th to18th centuries: “The Turks went through there. Everything is ruin and mourning.” Had Armenians not been good warriors defending their ancient lands and civilization from all sides, we’d by now ceased to exist. Yes, we were not as strong in number as the hordes of uncivilized, barbaric Seljuks and Mongols because we, as settlers, throughout centuries concentrated our attention on creating: towns and villages, architectural marbles, manuscripts and books, agriculture and trade, education and arts. And not on scorching other peoples’ lands, pastures in order to settle there by themselves. Your ‘reputation’, if the term is at all applicable to you, is already known to the world especially after wiping out the Armenians in 1915 from the face of the earth, and it is below our self-esteem to ruin it further.
Don’t you worry: soon YOU will pay for your crimes. The history teaches us that no crime is passed unpunished…
Armenian commentators,
It's come to my attention that a Turk by the name 'Ahmet' posting comments here has just insulted the Christian faith in another discussion. Here's his exact words: 'if armenians knew Islam better than Turks, they would be Muslim by now and would not believe such a nonsense as trinity.'
Moderators, I don't know if derogatory and faith-insulting words and their authors can at all be allowed to post here. Never had any Armenian in this or any other discussion remotely hinted anything negative towards Islam or their prophet Muhamad.
This is what Turks are all about...
Dear John,
I disagree to these generalizations. Armenians are not yearning for labeling.
Ahmed, we are not recreating or restoring greater Armenia. You already indirectly accepted the fact of the seizure of these lands which also indirectly means acknowledging the Genocide. What I personally want is to overcome the pain that I have grown with listening to the stories of my great-grandparents whose relatives were tortured, and whose heads were sawed off. There is an outstanding American-Armenian, Peter Balakian, and once he told two young Turkish women who were jealously denying the Genocide: "I am sorry for you for you are robbed of your own history and are ignorant of it." One apology and one official acknowledgement statement will bring so much relief to both parties. But "Sorry seems to be the hardest word..." So try and be brave enough to face your own history. No one wants lands, yet...
Hye, when I think of the years of 1
Turks not admitting the Armenian Genocide' for nearly 100 years
only yesterday, the 15year old Kurdish girl being jailed;
just yesterday, Turks ' grant' one day a year at the "museum"of Ani;
all the years of obvious fears of the Armenians as citizens of a Turkey;
Hrant Dink, and so many others, Christians slaughtered by 'prepared youths'
still, Turkish education system - students taught to hate Armenians (the victims)
and my list can go on... sadly!
Now, I cannot believe that any nation (especially uncivilized society of Turkey)
is capable of such a 'turn around' - rapidly!! Just another Turks' PLOY
For this Ottoman mentality leaderships are not as the Germans, (basically a civilized nation misled by a Hitler) hence the honesty of the Germans to seek democracy.
Turks call themselves a democracy-but before the world Turkish democracy is nonexistent.
As we wanted the Armenian leaders of today not to trust the Turkish 'road map' -
knowing of the dishonest y of their leadership, too
DO NOT TRUST THE TURKS TODAY... those who are seeking freedom from their
tyrannical leaders have not yet their strengths to combat Ottoman mentalities.
Fool me once.... Fool me twice!! Manooshag
Murat, the sick man of Europe, you always have all the anawers! If Armenians are "allergic to facts and figures" why does your amnesia induced society need laws from anyone speaking the truth of the Armenian Genocide? What low self-esteem you must all have so much so taht the truth scares your people. "Savage and barberic" usually describes you Mongols. Ask any race that has been under Turkish miss-rule and they would all acknowledge rape, brutallity and muder as a fact of the Turkish make-up. Also, Sylva's poetry is beautiful and accurate. Maybe someone needs to explain it to you or maybe you are just too stupid to understand it. Which is it?
A wise guy. He is right.
Kristine,
I will never ever acknowledge that my ancestors perpetrated a genocide against any nation.
You said you are not creating or restoring greater armenia? Are you serious? what is the AgriDagi (mt.Ararat) sign on the banner of armenia?
Keep doing your stupid propaganda about Armenians and kurdish people, you are not going to succeed in any thing, the world is fully aware of your deep criminality you will pay fro all your genocidal crimes agianst others sooner or later. you're accuse ameninas of killing you now they you committing genocide against the kurds.
you tuks horde are some foreign race based of plunder and genocide., who build their unity on hate on mass murder of peoples.
can anybody tell me how you are planning to achieve your greater armenia?
i mean, seriously. please explain to me logically how this will happen.
dont tell me “the justice of god will occur and we will get our lands back”. give me a plan that you think you could realize your dream.
Brutality, cruelty, blood-shed, massacre, murder etc., none of these is under monopoly of any ethnic group, or nation, they all come from the sick nature of human being. These are the things that the stronger does to the weaker.
I am telling here again, it is time to establish a consensus between peoples to prevent such sad incidents to occur again in the future. We all suffered and cried for our losses. We shouldn't allow this happens to our children. It is not nice.
I strongly believe that some more conferences like this should be held in both Ankara or Yerevan. Let's see what they might bring out. Probably not much, as both Turks and Armenians will keep believing what they believe today, but even if a few people begin thinking differently, that is still to be considered a success.
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
Heavenly Father,
As a follower of Jesus Christ, I pray that you forgive Ahmet for insulting you as ONE Godhead, as he doesn’t know what he’s saying. Jesus teaches us to love our enemies and bless those who curse us, but not hate and kill them as others do.
“Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).”
– Holy Bible
Ahmet,
Not only you sound retarded on the issues of historical, ethnographic, and geographical significance, but you also distort your own religion’s friendly and tolerant view of Christians, who are named “the People of the Book” in the Koran, by daring to insult Holy Trinity, that is, One Godhead, as ‘nonsense.’ It appears that you’ve been a non-achiever at school not only in the subjects above, but also in Islamic studies.
So may I, as a Christian, remind you of just one verse of the Koran that states:
“… You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 82)
Your fellow Muslim nations of Arabs and Persians would never descent so low as to insult Christian Armenians because they respect us greatly, and because they’re ancient nations, too, who contributed immensely to the world civilization in poetry, literature, arts and sciences, medicine, military art, architecture, trade and commerce. But you insulted my religion because you’re a Turk, whose ancestors were known to the world as ‘barbaric’ and unimaginative people.
May God give you wisdom…
Hye, when I think of the years of:
Turks not admitting the Armenian Genocide' for nearly 100 years
only yesterday, the 15year old Kurdish girl being jailed;
just yesterday, Turks ' grant' one day a year at the "museum"of Ani;
all the years of obvious fears of the Armenians as citizens of a Turkey;
Hrant Dink, and so many others, Christians slaughtered by 'prepared youths'
still, Turkish education system - students taught to hate Armenians (the victims)
and my list can go on... sadly!
Now, I cannot believe that any nation (especially uncivilized society of Turkey)
is capable of such a 'turn around' - rapidly!! Just another Turks' PLOY
For this Ottoman mentality leaderships are not as the Germans, (basically a civilized nation misled by a Hitler) hence the honesty of the Germans to seek democracy.
Turks call themselves a democracy-but before the world Turkish democracy is nonexistent.
As we wanted the Armenian leaders of today not to trust the Turkish 'road map' -
knowing of the dishonest y of their leadership, too
DO NOT TRUST THE TURKS TODAY... those who are seeking freedom from their
tyrannical leaders have not yet their strengths to combat Ottoman mentalities.
And, add: Turks are famous for distractions, delays, endlessly!
Fool me once.... Fool me twice!! Manooshag
P.S.
Or pull a Turkey trick - change rules midstream....
What's good for the goose is good for the gander...
Manooshag
He is the same regressive person no matter what the topic is.
Don't worry Ahmed, he does not like you either.
Absoluty, reality of fact and no else!!!
I used to listen to this *** and I consider myself to be Conservative. Michael Savage warned us about you Glen, but I doubted Dr. Savage. You should be fired off foxnews and i would like to see Beck Boycotted and see his advertisers drop him. Since its all about the mighty dollars, we have to hit this jerk where it hurts, $$$$$.
He would't dare speak (openly) about Jews and the Holocaust that way. However, I wouldn't doubt it if he was secretly anti-Semetic. He needs to talk to an Armenian Survivor and see how wrong he his. He got too big, too fast and he will fall on his face just as fast. Boycott the fool and force him to "man up". VJB
anyone who watches Fox News has to understand it is a comedy show...it has
nothing to do with real news or the truth. I refuse to watch this station unless
I want to listen to sick comedy.
Beck is an excellent example of the saying "I rather keep my mouth shut and let them wonder,then open my mouth and let them know for sure".....
I wouldn' take him seriously. It's all about the business for him.
Although I usually agree with Glenn Beck, I find this to be inappropriate. He obviously knows nothing about the history and facts of the Armenian genocide. I certainly do not discount Fox News for this. They are a legitimate news organization regardless of what some people have been brainwashed to believe. In fact, they are the #1 cable news network.
Never Say Never!
There are good and bad people in all races, cultures, religions, and creeds.
Where there is dialogue, there is progress, compromise, and change!
When enough good people come together…you will see great results! Never will become maybe, maybe evolve to likely, and likely change to definitely. The key is Dialogue without prejudice, fear, cowardice, and tunnel vision.
God bless!
AND HE DOES NOT LIKE MUSLIMS IN REAL LIFE. so dont get too excited ahmet.
Glenn! You are not as smart as you claim to be.
You know silence is gold, and seeking justice with compassion, while standing tall is priceless....
So, please learn how to listen, learn, and stand tall to tell the truth, learn how to have compassion to other's pain, before you open your big moth with senseless mockery. By the way, you seem to be well fed, so don't worry! You will not look like anorexic if you don't have your "Turkey" dinner with "Greece"....Don't worry! You will have plenty of other birds to swallow. If you want to end Turkey's Gag Rule on our country, learn how to stand tall and seek justice to every nation on the planet, not only for chosen minorities. Turkey needs America, America does not owe Turkey anything. Turkey will starve from hunger if they don't get our aid.
Who in the government speaks for the disenfranchised?
ALL CHRISITAN COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD, SHOULD EXPELL MUSLIMS... OH yehh, acutally they already dont like them.
My e-mail to Glenn Beck:
Dear Glenn,
Generally, I love humor, and I have enjoyed the entire spectrum of satire from the most conservative to the most liberal like Saturday Night Live or The Daily Show.
Making fun of a Genocide is not funny. Genocide is about the mass rape and murder of a people by a government. I don't know how to put that into context for you. I'll try.
Imagine someone who you love in your family was raped. How would you feel about that? Now let's take it to the next step. You go to the authorities to report the rape, but it turns out that it was the government who had ordered it. Now how do you feel?
But wait there's more. You have to now harbor the thought of this heinous crime, all the while your government tells you it never happened. It's all in your head, Glenn. Now how do you feel?
You go to your neighbors to talk about what happened, but they too are consummed by the events, because it happened to them too. For years and generations, the government of Turkey has denied the occurance of GENOCIDE. Do you still think that's funny?
Now you might ask, what does this have to do with America? Well, many Americans condemn Iran for denying the holocaust. Iran is part of the axis of evil. But Turkey, which continues to obfuscate history, is a ok in our book, right? No. That's a hypocritical message to send to Iran and the world isn't it?
Take a moment. Think about your flippancy, and try to get some maturity on this one. Ok?
Thank you for your time,
Glen Beck is an ignorant moron. I never expect anything intelligent to come out of the sewer that's his mouth anyway. One day he will step on one jewish toe too many and that will be the end of him...
Turkeys need to join the common market and prove to its prospective partners its improved credentials on human rights.
This may well be symbolised by finding ways to accept the genocide committed by its ancestors the ottoman empire. This could be achieved by a myriad of documents that exist, coming to light that prove the point and that require the Turks to re write their history books and accept the fact that their ancestors the ottoman Empire had committed genocide on the Armenians. They could as gesture of reparations (that can never meaningfully compensate Armenians but are merely a gesture in that direction) give back to Armenia its old territories including mount Ararat. Would that not seem would seem very appropriate (the USA and Europe can of course indicate to Turkey such a gesture and recognition would indeed ensure their membership of the EU ) Perhaps Armenia also could look to a future within the EU in due course as well as being far more aligned with the Christian western world. Solutions that have something for everyone can achieve all the main protagonists plans / dreams
I don´t know what´s more pathetic, Beck or the utter buffons that follow his words and buy his crap books. Truly sad we live in a world where this guy even gets listened to.
Ahmed,
World knows the name as "Ararat" nothing else.. most historians claim Ararat is a part of Armenian culture and destiny. Never mind if the holy Armenian mountain is captured by none believers, it is still loved and cared by his beloved Noah's children called "Armenians".. just like our captured ancient Armenian capital city "Ani", which is very popular name among female Armenian population and Ararat among male Armenian population..
Yet Turks especially this individual Murat thinks Erdogan is a man enough to stand up and apologize for what he said.. YEAH RIGHT... he does not have the humility, dignity, respect, truthfulness, and purity of a human being with a heart.. He showed his true colors...
I am not only pissed at Turkey but also at US of A for being silent about this matter.. not only being silent, US tried to downplay what Erdogan said.. I believe it was Gordon who minimized the effect of Erdogan's threats.. what a pure spineless bought out idiot...
Hope that the world wakes up and smells the true TUrkey's scent.. the blood thirsty animal...
Gayane
Who is this clown anyway!
But this **** GONE TOO FAR! I will say, YES, you SHOULD ask for FORGIVENESS for realizing this late, that your country is indeed involved in the GENOCIDE DENIAL, which is a GENOCIDE ITSELF!!!
Anyone with half a brain knows Fox News is a political comedy and Glenn Beck and the others are clowns with business suits. Should we worry...
Thank you so much for doing this.. The more our community reaches out and educates the people, the better we as Armenians will be....
God bless all those who helped to make this a reality..
Gayane
John Stewart on his "Daily Show" highlighted the level of absurdity in Glen Beck's show. It's worth watching: you can't take Glen Beck seriously, he's a moron to the nth degree.
Whether you acknowledge it or not is irrelevent! The simple fact is that it has happened, it is abundantly documented, and any historian worth his salt agrees to it. Once the famous law #301 is removed (and its days are numbered), the floodgates of recognition will be opened from within Turkey itself. Stop playing the ostrich!
I'm NOT a conservative but isn't G.B. making fun of so-called "Turkey" rather than ARmenia/ARmenians? Am I missing something?
Glenn Beck is a TURKEY !!!!!!!!!!
Please remove Linda's letter because she is another illiterate in this site.
Tell me who is she?
We communicate on this site to learn not to insult any religion.
Linda may be she is Turkish provoking Armenians , even she doesn't know how to write Christian, she can never be Armenian. Armenians 99% are literate.
Christians are respected in Saudi Arabia and trusted, no Arab can kill any Christan.
Turks are Turks even if they change their religion will stay the same.
Religion nothing to do with genetics of killing.
The Turks are against Sunni Kurds against Arab Muslims, even against Arab tourist who spend money in their country.
I heard many stories , they insult them on their faces to say, "You are bad you are Arabs."
Turks have race hatred.
While Arabs have respect to every clever race specially towards Armenians.
Please remove so called Linda's letter ...remove... remove...................................!
Mt Ararat, thanks for answering Ahmet (Ahmad )on my behalf you're real educator.
Thanks for Gayane and John to respect my poems.
I would really like to see him joking around with the Jewish Holocaust this way... He'll get such a tongue lashing he wont' know which eatsren European country he really came from. What do you expect from a jackass anyway. Eeshun meg neh.
Resoman,
I'd venture into assuming that at this juncture it is that important and relevant what Turks and Armenians keep believing because the rest of the world already knows, based on their own archival materials and witness accounts, as to what happenned in 1915-1921, who were the perpetrators, what the name of their crime was, and how they should acknowledge and apologize to the victim-nation. The number of countries and organizations recognizing the historical fact is growing and I think in the case of denialist Turks international recognition and not conferences in Ankara or Yerevan will yield results and invite the Turkish government to apologize to the Armenians... after 95 years... at last.
Well, guess what? Not many real Turks entered Anatolia and those who did were 'warriors' yes, but all men...so, they took native Armenians as wives...which means that in a very short time period, their offspring were all half-Armenian. Add to that, for hundreds and hundreds of years, every sultan had only non-Turkish wives....meaning that the ruling eschelon of the empire was also, essentially, non-Turkish. This was a very smart method of using their much more sophisticated subjects to their advantage, but it also meant that they respected them and treated them fairly well, at least compared to how minorities were treated in other parts of the world at that time. The ruling Turks were not only warriors, but actually very good people managers. As a result, 'Turkish' is actually not an ethnicity at all at this point, but more a state of mind, since ethnically, all 'Turks' are of mixed background. That's why Ataturk, who wasn't even ethnically Turkish himself, felt so comfortable getting rid of the last traces of the original Turkish culture...down to people's family names...and replaced them with bogus names that meant nothing. He had no real connection to anything Turkish....he was Ottoman of course, but not Turkish. Armenians were always much more 'Anatolian' than any Turks ever were, that's for sure...because they were the natives, but over time, they adopted the language of their rulers, not unlike the natives of Central America who adopted Spanish.
Dear Gayane...I do understand you, but unfortunately, while I think we should not forget history, I think it is a useless waste of energy for you or anyone else to try and correct things that happened 900, 500, 300 years ago, because that cannot happen. This obsessive focus on negative things that took place in the course of history is just plain unproductive, and, it ignores all the positive things that happened during the same time period, of which there were many. I guess that since you dislike Turkish rule so much, you also dislike Greek, Persian, Arab and Russian rule, too? However, do you realize that under Turkish rule ...Armenians did very well for a very long period of time? It is only when truly crazy, secular non-Turks took over (the CUP triumverate and Ataturk), that Armenians suffered most. And, that was because their Turkish rulers were not really Turkish at all...they were all of minority background...because all the sultans took non-Turkish wives. In fact, by the 19th C., most 'Turks', were not really very Turkish anymore....they were of very mixed background because they intermarried w/ all of their subjects for hundreds of years. This is why being anti-Turkish is kind of absurd...because they are us and we are them. No joke. If you want to identify as 'Turkish'...anyone can...because it is not an ethnicity, it is a state of mind. This isn't a negative comment, just an observation. However, it really bothers me when Armenians become so dogmatic, negative and nasty....because it overlooks many truths that they don't want to acknowledge. It also feeds into a
mindset that isn't respectful of other human beings...and that's sinking to a level not unlike that used by the Talaat pashas of the world...which is something no one should aspire to, that's for sure. It might sound trite and like a cliche, but living and treating everyone as brothers is the key to positive development for all of us who are concerned and involved with this issue...and that's because yes....we are all brothers and sisters, whether we like it or not. It takes as much energy to be negative as it does to be positive....which would you prefer? Which provides the most improvement and beneficial return on investment? Think about it....
Ahmet,
I think you should be ashamed, if such a thing as ‘shame’ is known at all to the Turks, to insult my faith with your dirty words, apologize to all the readers in this discussion, and only then consider posting your foolish comments in these pages. Don’t you know that Christians are the People of the Book according to Koran, who need to be respected? Or you’re unaware of your own religion’s postulates either? You trumpet about how ‘wonderful’ people the Turks are, but at the same time by insulting other peoples’ faith you show to all readers of this Forum how essentially miserable, close-minded, and bad-mannered the Turks are.
Apologize for insulting the Holy Trinity, coward!
Wow, Glenn Beck is almost as crazy as that nutcase Erdogan in Turkey.
Resoman – And we’re telling here again that tolerance of Evil that comes from the sick nature of human being is neither respect nor compassionate concern. Before establishing a consensus between peoples to prevent incidents of brutality, cruelty, bloodshed, massacre, murder, etc. to occur again in the future, the things that the stronger did to the weaker first need to be acknowledged, repented, and apologized for. Many nations have suffered losses, but some have experienced them in the cruelest form: the genocide, a total annihilation of ancient civilization from the face of the Earth. If you’re really concerned about this not to be happening to your children, then go ahead and denounce the crimes of your forefathers and repent for them. Otherwise your words are cheap: one gets an impression that you’re trying to replace the need for repentance by empty-worded pacifism…
Linda's views are provocative and do not reflect the general attitude of the Armenians towards the Muslims. We respect Muslim peoples, especially Arabs and Iranians. It is the denialist and revisionist Turkish State that we abhor and religion plays no role here whatsoever.
Karekin –
You’re back with more nonsense. It’s alien to my ears to hear that nomadic Seljuk and Mongol tribal conquerors, ‘warriors’ as you say, entered ‘Anatolia’ in 11th-13th centuries AD. There is not and has never been such a geographical toponym in history as ‘Anatolia’; it’s a modern Turkish novelty. The area is known to historians as Asia Minor, whereas the local area populated by the Armenians is known to geographers as Armenian Plateau or Armenian Highlands.
Seljuks’ and Mongols’ intermarriages with Armenian women pursued the aim of establishing barbaric nomads as noblemen. To achieve this objective, interbreeding with more settled, more civilized nations was imperative for them. Subsequently, Armenians are NOT known form the historical and ethnographic perspectives as being ‘Anatolians’ first of all, like I said, there was no such a toponym in history, and, secondly, because Armenians belong to a distinct Indo-European family of nations. Thirdly, Armenians never essentially ‘adopted’ the language of their rulers, many of them knew it as the second language because they were subjects of the Ottoman Empire, just like people like me who lived in the Soviet Empire, and were required to know Russian in addition to my native Armenian. Armenians were able to mostly preserve their national identity and language under different rulers.
You’re correct in stating that all Turks are of mixed background because throughout centuries they deliberately interbred with a great number of other, more civilized, nobler peoples: Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Jews, Georgians, Arabs, Slavs, etc.
And, yes, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was of Jewish origin and a Freemason. Not to say anything about his sexual orientation…
Karekin – You’re back and I see with sorrow that none of your self-deprecating views has changed or slightly progressed. Therefore, I’d like to reiterate a question to which I never received an answer from you. If you’re so passionate and truly pacifist about maintaining peace between Armenians and the Turks and about the need to respect human beings on both sides, I assume you also make appeals for the same values in the Turkish discussion forums and blogs. Am I correct? Refer me to links to such forums where your appeals or comments are posted, will you? Otherwise, I’d suspect that you’re posting comments on these pages just to attempt to mind-tilt the Armenians.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
K
Karekin, you make some interesting points regarding waste of energy, focus on positive rather than negative, and the question of what is a Turk today. However, in my opinion, you are still muddying the waters here regarding basic human tolerance and forgiveness AND official State accountability.
You want everyone to move on; accepting that humans do bad things to each other. Something like: "It happens, but don't dwell on it. It's part of the human drama." This is a valid truism, but not very useful here.
The Turkish State and its agents in the world, spend millions of dollars disseminating misinformation in an attempt to minimize and deny the facts of the extermination of the Armenians from eastern Asia Minor prior to and during World War II. Their (the Turkish State's) efforts in this regard go so far beyond merely defending against perceived false accusations of Armenians. These efforts constitute an orchestrated lie aimed at making Armenians look like they either deserved what happened to them or that the deaths where unfortunate collateral damage resulting from well-intentioned mass re-locations.
Why expend so much energy to appear guiltless? Why pass laws that punish anyone from talking about the genocide? Why teach lies as history to their own people? Why claim cultural artifacts of the indigenous people of Asia Minor as ancient Turkish treasures?
Can't you see how these actions continue the indignity of the original crime? How do you "move on" when the offense is ongoing? Don't we Armenians, at the very least owe it to our brother and sister fellow human beings, to stand up to the bullies amongst us.
I for one, believe it is a much more noble act in the big picture of the human drama to stand for truth and justice, than it is to walk away and allow evil to find it's next victim.
One of the issues I have with history is that it can be so debatable as exemplified on this post. Please understand, I value history immensely, it's a window into the past. With that said, how we interpret history can make all the difference.
What I believe is critically missing in the history of the Armenian Genocide are significant feature films. Compare, for example, the abundance and variety of feature films on the Jewish Holocaust. Do people not feel the Jewish Holocaust through films like Schindlers List and The Pianist? In contrast we have only a few films, e.g. Mayrig and Ararat, ..., and a few others?
The point here is that the common person, not just the politicians, needs to experience the Armenian Genocide first hand, and feature films are a great way to achieve this. Ideally subjects for these films would be portrayed to universalize certain truths about, not just Armenians, but all of humanity. This I think gets to the heart of some of what Karekin is expressing, i.e. what trumps everything is our basic humanity, that we are all in this game of Life together.
We Armenians do have a historical figure which many believe is our very example of the Armenian Genocide, Komitas. It's why myself and others are making films, and a play, about him. Check out the following when you get a chance.
http://www.vicdanfilmleri.org/?see=rixa1 - a really great effort by some Armenian filmmakers in Turkey
http://www.komitastheplay.com/ - a very moving play slotted for production
http://www.komitasthemovie.com - a short promo film for the larger feature film about April 24, called Red Harvest
I love the way how everyone joins hands to insult Turks...
To ones who are insulting rather than defending their cause:
Do you really have lives? Or do you have issues with your life and try to take it out on something?
Because if you do, you may go on spitting hatred here, just to keep safe the real living people.
Regards,
Can anyone provide independent confirmation of the conference? I am having a hard time finding any evidence that the conference will actually occur, other than this website or others citing it.
Not a bad letter but I agree with Yegparian. Greg, leave the mushy emotional appeals about Armenians and Turks "embracing the Turkish nation together" baloney out of such a letter. This is not a letter to your long lost brother. Your letter is addressing a shameful government policy towed by a government lackey who should know better than to promote intolerance. Keep it to the point, keep it direct and no need for dolma diplomacy to cloak demands for what is rightfully yours (ours). In addition, reparations and land restitution MUST be part of such letters. Why don't you visit your Canadian colleagues website, Mr. Ara Papian for more information regarding our legal rights to Wilsonian Armenia. My advice: when you write your letters envision a lawyer and a genocide survivor sitting next you as you type. Overall, it could have been much better but the effort is commendable.
I am quite doubtful that Glenn Beck has a real opinion except for fulfilling a comedic format to increase his show's ratings.
To Masis;
"If you’re really concerned about this not to be happening to your children, then go ahead and denounce the crimes of your forefathers and repent for them."
My ancestors, both paternal and maternal, have never been beyond the European shores of the Bosphorus, for at least 300 years to much of our knowledge. They have been a thousand and some more miles away from the eastern Turkey. We lost some family members too, who did not in this part of the world. I should also await for an apology, but I am not. Who is going to apologize to me for our losses. You are not the only ones. Armenians too owe some apology to some people. The size of the massacre doesn't tell anything, even one live is still important, particularly to his/her family. I understand the pains incurred by peoples of different ethnic origins. I am not any different. I am telling here again and again, it's time to bring an end to the long lasting quarrels between peoples, not only between Armenians and Turks, but all over the world.
I am not here to defend the Turkish Government, as I have been sued by the State Security Court number of times.
What concerns me is not only my own children, everybody's, yours too.
We have seen that in the past, what nationalism can do to the humanity.
Nationalism must die, so that the humanity can draw a deep breath, but I know it won't die.
A further clarification on my comment to Karekin above:
When I say we should not allow "evil to find its next victim" I am equating individual Turks with "evil" but I am calling the actions of various Turkish powers that be, past and present, evil.
Oops. Typo..I am NOT equating evil with individual Turks. Feel awful about this typo...
SG
"At least some of the churches are being renovated"
Armenians should follow this pattern too, the ancient Churches in Armenia are not in much different situation than those in Turkey. I still wonder why the Armenian government wouldn't did some restoration and renovation works on those beautiful churches and let them to turn to ruins day after day.
To Ahmet,
Russia has traditionally sded with Armenia.Besides, in case of your imagined conflict-I did not mention that,you did- I only said if the U.S. U.k let go of Turkey, Turkey wll change stance, to that effect.No word of conflict -war was mentioed by me..
As to Resoman,s post.I wrote above, I did participate in Armeno turlish Conf. it is not bad,PROVIDED THE ATTENDEES ARE NOT "BRAIN-WASHED OR GIVEN NOTICE BY THE PRESENT TURKISH JUNTA-GOV. THAT THEY KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY...OTHERWISE, THEY GO TO JAIL...
THAT IKS THE QUESTION...SO BETTER STICK TO ENLIGHTENING THE TURKISH PUBLIC-THIS IS HAPPENING IF NOT BY US ARMENIANS BY THE WHOLE WRLD...THEY ARE WITNESSING THE TURKISHBY AND BY COMING TO GRIPS...WITH REALITIES...IT WILL TAKE SOETIME.MEANWHILE ARMENIANS ALL OVER MUST BE PATIENT AND GO FROM PARLEMENT A PARLEMENT AS PROFFESSOR YEVES TERNON-LAST SRING IN PARIS "SGGESTED TO US...
BEST WAY IS THAT.INDEED MR. AHMET WE SALL WELCOME MORE ENVOYRTS TO RA, WHETHER FROM GOV. FUNCTIONARIES OR STUDENTS..
THEY WILL EVENTUALLY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS TIME OVER IT IS NOT 2/3 MILLION ARMENIANS IN THEIR MILLENIA OLD HABITAT WEST ARMENIA,BUT CLOSE TO 20 MILLION K U R D S ..are they going to EVICT THEM AS WELL.PRAY TELL ME HOW?
SO NO TALK OF CONFLCT/WAR.BUT IF YOU MUST KNOW THE NEW WAR-FARE IS BASED ON MISSILES NOT "ASKERLER" INVADING...
Easy r. Easy be a bit compromising...
Ermeniler ...WWILL NOT DISAPPEAR FROM THE FACE OF EARTH...
Ataturk: "The destiny of the boy born in Salonika in 1880 was in no way forseen, or desired, by the mother who gave him birth, and called him Mustafa. Her name was Zubeyda and the father's name was Ali Riza. She was a Macedonian Turk and he an Albanian, both Turkish subjects and faithful Moslems. Other earlier, unknown blood strains coursed in this boy, just as in those of us who call ourselves Americans. Turkey also has the virility that comes from the blending of many blood streams. But there was never a question in Mustafa's mind that he ws anything but Turkish. .. (revolutionary....xenophobic). Turkey, Key to the East.
btw, I have no prejudice against liberals and gays.
If future generations in my family years from now discover they have a little Jewish or Armenian blood, would you consider them to be Jewish or Armenian, in spite of the fact that they are more English, German, Swedish or whoever else they mix with and they go to Protestant Christian churches?
In a few generations, no one of them will have kept in contact with or know much about their ancestors.
As to Ataturk being Jewish, it is not known for sure if there even was only a drop of it in his blood?
The fact that many muslim Turks formed a racist ideology with pan turan at its center, following in the steps of Genghis Khan (who invented genocide) and Timerlane, has more to do with the genocide than Jewish conspiracy or freemason conspiracy theories.
I think that is why Jews in Israel wonder who will really remember or care about the Holocaust ten generations from now? History can be distorted and the victims will be long gone. Each year, the world seems to care less and less. When this generation is gone (the children and grandchildren of genocide survivors), who will remember when the Turks, Nazis or others try to hide their guilt and no one will oppose them.
I have never been a particular fan of Glenn Beck but I recognize that his show is a talk show that broadcasts his opinion no differently than the opinions and idle chatter of celebrity has-beens' daytime talk shows. As painful as it is to hear such things said, I cannot help but contrast the reaction to Beck with the lack of reaction to politicians who have repeatedly used Medz Yeghern as a campaign crutch in our community then failed to take action or even reversed entirely, not that I'm dropping any names, Barack and Hillary, but I expect "circumstances have changed" is the best explanation we will ever get. To me, that betrayal born of deceit is more hurtful than any number of ignorant blowhards' opinions.
Resosman,
You mean to say that Turks have been following the pattern of renovating Armenian churches and monasteries immediately after Armenians have been wiped out from their ancestral lands in Turkey in 1915-1921? Didn't know that... Or they just started the process fearing wider genocide recognition? I wonder what you think might have happened to nearly 3000 churches in the Armenian provinces of the Ottoman Empire? Was there a massive, unknown in modern history, grandiose earthquake covering all vast areas of central-eastern and eastern parts of Turkey or it might have been part of a Turkish government-ordered destruction of all remaining cultural, religious, and educational remnants of the Armenian civilization?
Yeah, and please save your health worrying about the state of churches in Armenia. Everything will be done in time simply because we know and the world knows that we are a nation of builders, not destroyers…
This is a nice "balanced" article. Could have been written by the Economist magazine or Hurriyet. Maybe it was.
Dude, if you really read it, you'd see it's an AFP report.
most turks are so mixed, they don't even know what or who they are. so many of them are mixed armenian, greek, jews, assyrians, kurds.....
Glen, you are smarter than this?!
True, Ara. In fact, I read the news item earlier today. Here's the original A quick look will show how it was way more "balanced" before.
***
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has sent Turkey's top diplomat to Armenia to discuss snags in reconciliation efforts between the two estranged neighbors, Turkish officials said Wednesday.
Feridun Sinirlioğlu, undersecretary of the foreign ministry, was to meet Wednesday with Armenian President Serge Sarkisian and Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian, a Foreign Ministry source said.
He was to discuss disagreements holding up a historic deal that Turkey and Armenia signed in October in a bid to end decades of hostility, establish diplomatic ties and open their border.
Sinirlioğlu "will reassert Turkey's commitment to the [reconciliation] process but will also convey our concerns," the official, who requested anonymity, told AFP.
The envoy will also discuss "steps that need to be taken to ensure that the process moves forward," said a senior diplomat, who also declined to be named.
He will also explore the possibility of arranging a meeting between Erdoğan and Sarkisian on the sidelines of a nuclear security summit in Washington next week, the sources said.
The Turkish-Armenian deal — comprising two protocols — needs parliamentary ratification in both countries to take effect, but the process has been held up by mutual accusations that the other side is not truly committed to the terms of the agreement.
Ankara is irked by a January ruling of Armenia's constitutional court that upheld the legality of the protocols but said they could not contradict Yerevan's official position that the mass killings of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire was genocide — a label Turkey fiercely rejects.
Yerevan, for his part, has protested Ankara's position that the Turkish Parliament is unlikely to ratify the accord without progress in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, a close Turkish ally.
The peace process has been marred also by resolutions adopted last month by a U.S. House of Representatives committee and the Swedish parliament that branded the World War I massacres of Armenians as genocide, infuriating Ankara
an interview with one of the participants (in armenian)
http://azg.am/AM/2010040308
it also mentions it was reported in a misrepresented way in hurriyet.
Takuhi...let's stop dissecting historical minutia...it makes absolutely no difference if you call it Asia Minor and/or Anatolia. In fact, who cares? My family is from there....and it makes no difference what it's called. Mexico used to be called something else, too. So what? There are bigger fish to fry. The point is, Armenians need to stop this 'us and them' mentality....because we are all of the same land. Whether you like the historical record or not...you have to deal w/ the results, and you can't do that by attempting to turn the clock backwards. We all must move forward in a positive way.
I am glad you have finally visited the place that put Armenians back on the international map and rekindled the flame of our proud forefathers in our hearts. We Armenians (especially here in the diaspora) desperately need more "Artsakh" and less "Genocide" in our lives. I hope now you can get past your irrational opposition to the authorities in Yerevan as a result of the political process going on between Yerevan and Ankara...
So, ok...we all know that the denial campaign is orchestrated by a cadre within the Turkish govt, probably more out of fear than anything else. But, the reality is...they're the ONLY ones on the planet who believe their own lies. You don't believe them...I don't believe them...no one of any intelligence believes them...they are lies and fabrications. And, if they stopped the lying tomorrow (it could happen, you know), then what? What will you say? What will you do? What will it change? Will it bring back our long lost relatives? I think not. We've burned candles for them for 100 years now....do you expect Turks to do the same? I just wonder what you're expecting, if/when that genocide acknowledgment comes? Then what?
Hye, Turkey is desparate, and all their 'actions' now are indicative of this.
Turks are using more and more PLOYS - continuing their policies to distract, delay, of course, the denials of perpetrating the Turkish Genocide of the
Armenian nation 1915-1923, still into today 2010. All these PLOYS are for their efforts to impress nations of the world that a Turkey is trying... but trying what?
Don't ever trust the Turk. Which nations are they 'allied' with - for how long?
All the Genocides against the Greeks, Syrians, Assyrians, Kurds, the Armenian nation, and more, were all to give a Turkey for Turks ONLY.
The Turks, still in the Ottoman mentality to this day, still, are incapable of joining and living with the civilized nations of the world.
As it was with Nazi Germany after WW2, the total replacements of their leadership, and their admission of the Nazi guilts, brought Germany back to join
its European neighbors and the world as well. Turkey has a long way to go...
Fool me once... Fool me twice... Oh, my!
Manooshag
Manooshag
genocide denial,
By your comment you not only concur your name, but also sound like the monster of all times, Adolf Hitler: “After all, who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?” Well, if kinds like you don’t, WE DO. And not only the genocide of the Armenians, but the Jewish holocaust, golodomor of the Ukrainians, genocide of Cambodians, Rwandans, Darfurians, etc. This is all-human history, all-human tragedy, and genocides are crimes against the whole humanity. Recognizing the crimes, extending apology to the victims, keeping and passing the memories of these crimes from generation to generation are absolutely necessary so that future generations of the mankind be aware of them to minimize the risk of cruelty and unspeakable barbarity against fellow human beings, to be more considerate, open-minded, and tolerant towards each other. And you’re dead wrong that the world seems to care less and less about such crimes. May the increasing number of foreign nations recognizing the Armenian genocide be a reminder for people like you that this world is not filled with ignorance and indifferentism alone, but also with knowledge, understanding, and compassion.
You say you’d have no problem with discovering your family having Jewish or Armenian blood? Then why wait for future generations? Act now. Raise your voice against the discriminatory Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code and I’m absolutely positive that you’ll witness a massive wave of revelations from millions of Turks as to being of non-Turkic and non-Muslim origin. Why wait? You hope that in a few generations all will be forgotten? How gravely you’re mistaken… Or, perhaps, maybe it will given the artificial nature of your nation, but certainly not with homogeneous nations like Armenians. Genetic memory is a very serious and obstinate thing, you know… And documentary-based history is a discipline that comes to denounce lies and distortions of the present. Therefore, criminals, falsifications, revisionists, and denilaists like Ottoman Turks or Nazis will always be unearthed and exposed. Make no mistake…
To LakeVan;
Which part of my words you don't understand, I really wonder. Look around this forum and find my other posts then you might understand what I mean. I have traveled to Armenia more than 20 times, and I have seen some of the churches in really bad condition. If you don't believe me, as I said look around this forum, and find many and many similar comments made by your own fellow Armenians.
My comment was a sincere one, and I really would like to see many ancient monuments, temples - though I'm anti-religious person - churches, mosques renovated and preserved for the next generations.
My comment was about the today's condition of the churches in Armenia, please read it. I don't represent the Turkish government here. If you would like to talk to someone from the Government, talk to Mr. Erdogan.
Hye, a Turkey, desparately, is continuing its policy of ongoing PLOYS... one after another, endlessly... causing delays, distractions - but never facing their guilt of the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation 1915-1923, still into today, 2010.
Only a total removal of the Ottoman mentality from their leaderships can bring about true democracy in Turkey, one who admits their guilt of the slaughters, tortures, women/children forced into churches then set afire, bandido, the victims feet beaten bloody, then burst, then death... and all the vile horrendous
means devised by the Ottoman hordes who came down from the Asian
mountains to claim lands - chose the Armenian lands as their own - eliminating the Armenians from their own lands of nearly 4,000 years!
Turks, incapable of truths are still in the Ottoman mode (and it seems they are proud of this, too).
Manooshag
To Kars;
I am not a government representative here, and I am not the authorized one to apologize about anything. Please read my other comments, we've also lost many members of my family, and I don't expect any apology from anyone. Also, my family, both father side and mother side has never been to eastern Turkey. We were 1,300 miles away from the places that sad incident had happened.
I always support the dialogs between the people. There is nothing to loose, but so much to gain.
Resoman –
I thought I’ve made myself clear that that by appeal ‘to denounce the crimes of your forefathers and repent for them’ I meant your Ottoman authorities, and not your own paternal and maternal ancestors or next-of-kins. I’m not the only Armenian in these pages who encounters some of the Turkish commentators’ reading comprehension problems.
Genocide, that is deliberate annihilation en masse of a targeted ethnic, racial, national, or religious group go BEYOND personal losses in tragic individual instances, BEYOND war episodes, BEYOND fragmented intercommunal, interethnic, interreligious clashes, because genocides by definition are CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. Yes, an individual Armenian, too, may owe an apology to an individual Turk, since every human life is important. But the Armenian State owes no apology to the NATION of Turks, or any other nation for that matter, for wiping them out from the face of the earth. Do you appreciate the difference or you’re just being cynical to the extreme? The UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide specifically states that “genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which [nations] undertake to prevent and to punish.” The size of the massacre DOES matter, as stated in Article 2 of the said Convention: “genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” The Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire have been destroyed in whole. Out of 2.5+ mln Ottoman Armenians in 1915 only 60,000+ remain in modern-day Turkey.
And I am telling here again and again, in order to bring an end to the long-lasting quarrels between peoples, crimes must be acknowledged by the pain-inflicting State. Do you know any other way of reconciliation among people but by repentance and apology? If you do, do share with us the reconciliation method that you know but the whole mankind is unaware of.
As for nationalism, I’m afraid your point is off the subject of this discussion. Nationalism has several meanings. If you meant loyalty and devotion to a nation, I personally don’t see anything detrimental in this. If you meant a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others, I’m afraid it has no correlation whatsoever to calls for recognition of the genocide, that according to the UN Convention, nations must take actions ‘to undertake to prevent and to punish.’
mr beck you are ESHAG with 3 legs
Yes, Resoman, it is based on your other comments that I wrote. And I think they’re deeply flawed or hughly cynical in that under the disguise of pacifism, internationalism, and hypothetical ‘dialogue among all peoples’, you seem to covertly advance the idea of putting the recognition of your State’s crime to rest indefinitely. While pacifism, internationalism, and dialogue among all peoples are very important and desirable, the issue here is fundamentally different. If and when your State extends an apology to the Armenians for the crime, you’ll see how soon both peoples will engage in international contacts and dialogues on the whole lot of issues. Unless the neighbor-state denies its crime and its efforts at denial are ongoing, Armenians cannot trust the Turks. I think a dialogue prior to recognition of the genocide is possible, but it cannot be complete without recognition and apology.
Armenians need to hear more about the Armenian Genocide, Artsakh, human rights and what we are legally entitled to as a consequence of the genocide in the form of reparations and land restitution. Logical opposition to the ottoman enslaved defeatists in Yerevan is the only response to pathetic turncoats that shamefully put out the "flame of our proud forefathers in our hearts..."
Karekin, then following your logic the male half of my next-of-kins can break in your house (and I apologize for such an untypical for Armenians comparison, rather cruel, I admit, sorry); slaughter every living thing in it, destroy it to the ground; scorch the lawn, trees, and bushes; ruin sculptures and shrines that you erected; declare them as being of handwork of other people; convert children to an alien religion; and then change the name of the street where your house stood for 3000 years and declare that it’s been theirs for millennia? And then when you’d cry out to them to repent for the crime, you’ll be told to “stop this ‘us and them’ mentality….because we are all of the same land.” I’m sorry, I’m having trouble comprehending you logic. What is bigger fish to fry? I read somewhere in your comment that building the remnant of our homeland, the Republic of Armenia, is important. Indeed, it is, but how on earth a mere apology from Turks can denigrate building a strong and prosperous Armenia?
And I’d perhaps repeat for the last time. It DOES matter if you call it Asia Minor or Anatolia, because by calling it Anatolia you latently concur that Turks inhabited the area for all times, since the term is their newest creation. Whereas historians, ethnographers, demographers, geographers know the area as Asia Minor, which was inhabited by many nations, including Armenians. Why pretend that it wasn’t? Why would Turks, and you portray them as different, modern, civilized, would deny the fact that, yes, other peoples inhabited the area before the 14th century and before 1915? What’s going to happen? Apocalypses?
And I’m tired to repeat this trivial fact: we are NOT from the same land, or let me re-phrase it: we are from the same land ONLY beginning the 11-13th centuries AD. But the ethnogenesis of the Armenians, as you know, goes WELL beyond 11th-13th centuries and onto the 2nd millennium BC. Why are you trying to impose parity, juxtaposition on essentially disparate parties? Disparate in every sense: ethnic, racial, linguistic, religious, cultural, civilizational?
On the final note. Yes, the clock cannot be turned backwards, but there’s no such a thing in history as ‘result.’ What you see as ‘result’ in this very point in time will be different 20, 50, or 100 years from now. Armenians living in their ancestral homeland up until 1915 was also a ‘result’ at the time, wasn’t it? But look what happened… We need to believe that historical circumstances change and NOTHING is permanent, and moving forward in a positive way by no means implies that we must forget historical facts, use renamed geographical areas, equalize unequal, diverse peoples, etc.
Don't misunderstand what I said. I said I hope no one forgets. I said it is a tragedy and would be further tragedy if no one remembers.
I know of and remember the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust. Au contraire, ma cher, I know and care a lot.
My name is not genocide denial because I deny the genocides.
It is because many others do.
On the risk of being further misunderstood, I will not post any more.
It is shocking to me you interpreted what I said the way you did.
Mt. Ararat is a national symbol and was a part of historical Armenia. Does the presence of the moon on the Turkish flag mean that they are trying to take it for themselves?
As for your comment about never acknowledging the genocide, you just proved that it doesn't matter how many facts are brought up, you will just ignore them. Did you know that when Dr. Raphael Lemkin first coined the word "genocide", he did so with what happened to the Armenians as a direct example and blue-print for what that word entailed?
My last comment was directed at Ahmet.
Sorry, Glenn Beck and Fox news are about as real as WWF Wrestling. WWF has millions of fans and followers but that still doesn't make it real. To say believing otherwise is a form of "brain washing" is an insult to most peoples intelligence. My opinion is that he is making big money feeding of the fears and stupidity of others.
Armenian Government officials should not meet with any Turkish officials in April. The Turks are again trying to sabotage the Genocide Commemorations.
The first commenter should be concerned about when he/she will sober up...
The traitorous authorities in Yerevan need a crash course in negotiations and a refresher course on Turkish history. Other than that, a few months in a Turkish jail cell wouldn't hurt either...
Well put Manooshag, turkey has not changed it's mentality for 200 years. The same tactics are being used today as were before and during the Genocide. Deception, delaying and eroding the minorities until the opportunity presents itself to attack and destroy (mainly the weak and defenseless) while covering their real intentions of pan-turkism. Modern civilisations can do without this mentality.
Hi Glen, evidently you are not cognizant of what a Genocide really is... slaughters, tortures, kidnapping of children, women/children forced into their churches to be set on fire, bandidos, beating the soles of the victims' feet until bloody and finally bursts, and more.
Then the Turks, who had executed several such events against Armenians in the late 19th century initiated their planned Genocide of the Armenians for years 1915-1923, beginning under the cover of the WWI. To this day, 2010, all the
subsequent Turkish leaderships deny the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenians - until today, the Turk still seeks to eliminate the Armenians .
Imagine, if Turkey had been brought to face justice, admit to the Armenian Genocide, reparations had been made, ALL of the Genocides that followed on the planet earth shall never have been. Millions upon millions of humanity lost their lives due to despots with convoluted goals. Sadly, as I see it, despots 'got away' with murders are the 'winners' - all those murdered, tortured and worse are the 'losers'. Truth be known, humanity is a 'loser', as well.
In civilized countries murderers, rapists, kidnappers and such are all to be found and their penalties are usually severe. But yet, when mass murderers, mass rapists, mass kidnappers and more occur - labelled as Genocides - these same civilized nations are unable to step up - as is happening still in Darfur - unable to
halt the despot. Now the Sudanese recently denied they were guilty of Genocide - why not? Their model for the Darfurian Genocide is the Turks denials of nearly
100 years.
So it seems no nation has the 'guts' to oppose these bullies, for this is what they are. But if nations were to join together to end the cycle of Genocides - for who knows who next will be the victim - whomever, wherever whether a foe or
an 'ally' can pursue Genocide at will. And why not?
Manooshag
Resoman, Armenians understand Turkish mentality and behavioral characteristics more than anyone else in the world given centuries of oppression and massacres. So, don't you try to apply your Turksih tactics to my response. I understood what you meant to say, and you, I hope, grasped what I meant to say. So, don't even think of trying to fool Armenians around: ain't gonna work. We know your traits, ethos, and habits wa-a-a-y too well.
Your radical neurotic prime-minister represents your nation, so, if you wish, talk to your own chief executive about rubbish that he utters about Armenians, showing to the world how Turks haven't advanced a iota to be open-minded and liberal.
Harutyun,
how about armenians mixed with Turks? after all more than half of armenians have Turkish last names.
or, were your fathers Turks???
Karekin, good questions.
I for one would like to visit the place where my grandparents came from. I don't, even though my mother has. Do you know why? Because of the experience I have had of meeting Turks who hated me the minute they found out I was Armenian. I have even experienced this antipathy because of my looks, my Armenian face, before I spoke with people. I don't want to deal with such things if I go visit Turkey, so I stay away. But I would like to see the place my grandmother was born, and the places she told me about, the weather with all of its seasons, the fruit we don't have here. I would like to see the snow my other grandmother told me about, and the place where she lived.
I would like to be able for our two peoples to begin the talks that would help us at least to be welcome in our own ancestral homeland, without all the rancor and hatred and tension -- or at least far less of it. I would like negotiations to begin for reparations: not because I want to claim any money or anything, but I want us to have the right to visit our home as a people, to be welcome there. And for those who wish to, to find a way to make community there. We need reconciliation and dialogue on some level to take the next steps to put our pieces back together from tragedy and to HEAL that tragedy.
Obviously, I believe that Turkey needs this too. Unfortunately, the dominant ideology tells everyone to just deny as the solution, to wipe out the memory of minorities' existence. This is obviously not going to happen at this point.
But nothing can start without recognition.
PS We as a people -- as other minorities like the Greeks, for example -- should be able to lovingly restore our own monuments, ancient churches, etc. This preservation is essential for any cultural values that the world honors. I would like these to be preserved, visited, known. This cannot happen without recognition as the first step.
To Dr. D. Deranian:
Excellent job of the short movie on Gomidas Vartabed!
Wake up everybody... have you forgotten how the turks operate? There are only few days left for April 24... remember last year same time what happened?
I do hope that this time our president is not cheated with the sweet talk...
Actually the last few months have shown those Armenians opposed to the Protocols that official Yerevan knows what its doing, and that turkey is in a bind. Serj has given two great speeches already, and I hope that that has at least shown many who thought he was a sell out that he most certainly is not!
Irate, and realist, I'm willing to bet that both of you are the types who think giving millions of dollars to politicians in DC to get the AG bill passed is a winning solution, instead of investing that money in Armenia. Am I wrong?
To Janine:
Yes, I feel the same way & so do many others. It would be great to visit where both sides of my family came from. Kayseri is quite West so chances are it will not be part of a possible New Western Armenia if and when that happens?
Like you say even a visit would be great! A few years ago a young Turkish man bought the property next door to me. He tore down 1 old house & built 2 new smaller houses...sold them and I now see him infrequently. We got along famously...I did some work for him, and he wanted me to go visit Turkey with him, in late 2009. He says "Gary...we will be friends forever!" But I still feel it is risky for an Armenian to visit Turkey at this time...though many do. I was also invited by an Armenian hotel owner to visit. This place is in Western Turkey.
Thanks for sharing Janine!
G
Glenn Beck
According to so-called Mr. Glenn,
We should not celebrate Easter for Jesus Crucifixion ...to say that was 2000 years ago!
During 1915...In every Armenian soul Jesus existed,
Every one called Jesus, before thy slaughtered by Turkish sword.
I wish Glenn would see that scimitar in his dream only...
Then he will understand what genocide was.
Will he joke in his dream or get a heart attack!
To Gary (Garabed) Malkhassian:
Much thanks for you comment about the film on Komitas.
Resoman,
I have commented in the past about this....
I understand that ARmenian has churches and monuments and other ancient structures that are in need of fixing.. However, even though my heart bleeds to see them on our country decaying away, I can't say that I hurt more when I read that Turkey is INTENTIONALLY destroying our churches and disrespecting our heritage by turning them into animal shelters...
No matter how hurtful it is to know that the ARmenian govt instead of feeding their mafia stomachs with money, greed and selling our country to others, spend that much time, effort and money renovating these monuments, I know for a fact that everything in ARmenia will get renovated in the near future.. no matter how long it takes for us to throw out this mafia we call our govt.. until that happens, if we want this project to begin in Armenia we need to have wealthy individual finance that otherwise, the govt won't do anything about it.. not if we have Sarkissian, Nalbandian and their mafio on the throne.. it is sad but it is the reality... so blaming ARmenia for not owning these churches is not going to help your cause.. we know we will fix our own sooner or later.. we need to worry about the structures in Turkey.. they are the ones that need the most help now......
THanks
Gayane
Karo and Boyajian... Excellent comments.. I would not say any better...
Karekin axper... I dont' know how else to say it...
Janine--- you are gorgeous because you have the ARmenian face.. and don't you forget it..:) and if you have been mistreated by the Turks, then I hope that they will get their own one day.. what goes around comes around... and excellent points to Karekin's questions... I agree with you wholeheartedly and I will be even bolder and say that we would want ALL of our lands back.. we had been cheated out of rights too long.. no more... lets see how it feels to return everything that NEVER belonged to Turks...
Dr. Deranian did a great job.. Very proud of him.. and I agree with him.. making movies is a great way to spread the truth about the Armenian Genocide... in the past, many tried but were shot down by the govt... we are fortunate to have a better chance now than ever to start producing these types of movies... and I pray to God Dr. Deranian for you and your efforts and hope to God that one day, you will produce enough movies to be shared with millions..
Gayane
Ancient Armenia and Masis (very proud Armenians)..
I get so much gratitude from reading your comments... if you were next to me, i would have given you both a hug..apreq.. excellent comments.
Thank you for your precise, legit and clear message to Murat and his kind.. also to Resoman who like Karekin from another site believe that we should just get over it and play nice.. and that demanding recognition won't help....as many of our comrads on this site stated until the recognition and acknowlegement happens, there will be no playing nice and treating the Turks equally as other human beings...... ...never...
God Bless..
Gayane
Dear Armenians.
Ahmet Davutoglu?????????????????????lets prove him wrong.
1-can anybody tell me how you are planning to achieve your greater Armenia
maybe same as America did to Iraq?Zionist non semetic Jews?did to Palestine?and the list goes on...(are they right?lets find out.
2-**************************************
3-don't tell me "the justice of god will occur and we will get our lands back". give me a plan that you think you could realize your dream.
God justice? eye for an eye)
Wake up Armenians do you want to wait for another 95 years cause that is what will happen.
What we need to do for all our organizations for once to unite and have the biggest rally ever seen in Australia on this coming 24 of APRIL 2010 on each capital cities.
to all our Armenian news corespondents to get involved and maybe we can ignite that fire that has been burning in each Armenia's HEARTS.it is every Armenians rights.
we can seat and corespond how far can this takes us
Gayane:
"...I am sure many Armenians do not hate the Turks but we hate the fact that they lie to our faces and deny until they are blue in their faces.. why do they do that???"
Why, it's easy to answer. As Hrant Dink once said in an interview:
"They are denying it because they are aware that what happened is despicable and they think 'That cannot be what my ancestors had done. They cannot be ruthless murderers as described.' "
Reply Well, why is it the world heard so little, and did even less, when Armenia deported all of the non-Armenians from Armenia to acheive their present day goal of having a 98% national purity rate. What happened to all of those Moslems (Turks, Azeris, etc.) who had been living there? Over 6,000 Armenian citizens flee in a mass exodus each month from Armenia's severely corrupt government & oppressive religious structure. Many come & settle in Turkey (again, many as illegal aliens). Better to look at your own country before pointing fingers!
Hye, Erodgan's erratic and vile words tell it all - Turkish leaderships, all, since the Ottomans and into 21st century - remain with their Ottoman mentality - still.
Hence, to this day, a Turkey has not yet been able to join with civilized societies of the world easily, especially when Turks approach these societies in their true nature - Turkish bullies. Yet, bullies, when faced with the strengths of those who will no longer tolerate the bully behavior, at any level, the bully can't take the heat! (Just ask you children/grandchildren who too, may have faced the school bully - and learned, not to fear them, but to stand up and the bully folds - like an emptied balloon!
No doubt, Turks, bullying their way with all the civilized world yet none has any 'guts' to tell the Turks - enough, enough!! Thus Turks think they are the most
clever, most intelligent, most world savvy of peoples. And, oh, never insult the
Turks - they are very sensitive about being 'insulted'... Turks cannot accept any that is not, according to them, showing Turkey as enlightened and advanced...
Yet, the Turks 'insulted' the Armenian nation, when Turks slaughtered men, women, children, raped and gruesome tortures only the Ottoman mentality could devise - wasn't this an 'insult' of Armenians, wasn't this 'insulting' of all of humanity to eliminate the peoples of the Christian nation of Armenia - Turks for their own convoluted need for lands, took the refined cultures and more of the ancient Armenians - planned the elimination of Armenians via Genocide-not war
Just think, if Armenia were still the nation that it was and should have been even
today - what a difference it will have made to the world peace, to Caucasus...
but destroyed by a Genocide the brave Turks destroyed a fine ancient
nation and sought to eliminate its Christian people. (Turks did claim all the fine culutures of the Armenians to be as their own culture - Turks had none)!
Armenians are creators, Turks know only to bully others, as if this is their due!
Turkey is ONLY for the Turks... they must be aiming for their Ottoman days when the Turks were in their (own) glory. as Turks are spreading across a Europe! Sadly
Manooshag
Manooshag
Takuhi...you need to learn something about physics....for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Hate begets hate, anger begets anger, war begets war, but compassion begets compassion, kindness begets kindness. Try it...it works. Saying that many Armenians need to adopt a new attitude does not diminish the losses or sufferings that have taken place, and asking Turks to adopt a new attitude isn't about letting anyone off the hook, but about changing the future and how we all look at the past. And, if anyone really wants to avoid an alien religion, they might do better to go back to the original Armenian sun-oriented pantheon and Zoroastrianism, instead of worshipping the ideas of some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks.
Hello Janine....Well, the reality is that you can go to Turkey and visit your family's village, maybe even find their house. If you happen to have the original Ottoman deed and no one is living in or on the property, you can have it back according to Turkish law. I know there's a slim chance of that, but you never know. In any event, recognition and/or an apology will come eventually, but it cannot come by using the methods Armenians have used thus far. That's why I was very happy to read about Khachig's trip to Turkey....the first visit is both exciting and sad at the same time....but it's very important. The more of us who visit the better it is and will be for everyone. We should not turn our backs on Turkey, because it's turning our backs on our own heritage. Turkey wasn't some backward colony, it was one of the world's most important and sophisticated empires for hundreds of years, and the center of the Armenian world, as well. Don't forget that, because there's alot of history there just waiting to be rediscovered. As for the reaction of Turks,that's unfortunate, but I've had just the opposite happen... and have always felt very welcome in Turkey.
TO JANINE, GARY, AND GAYANE
YOU GUYS REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABT!
TURKISH PEOPLE IN GENERAL DO NOT HATE ARMENIANS ON THE CONTRARY.
JANINE, I UNDERSTAND YOU HAD AN INCIDENT WITH A TURKISH PERSON. WELL I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IT WAS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT.
GARY, IF YOU WANT TO VISIT KAYSERI WHY DON'T YOU VISIT IT? KAYSERI IN FACT IS A VERY NICE CITY KNOWN IN SOUTHERN/CENTRAL TURKEY FOR ITS SMALL SKI STATION. WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?
GAYANE, EVEN YOU YOU CAN COME AND VISIT YOUR ANCESTRAL LAND.
Ahmet, buradan cik, tamam mi? Hic kimse 'greater Armenia' hakkinda konusmuyor- sadece senin gibi turk milliyetciler. Pragmatik Ermeniler su hakkinda unuttu.
Yes, Antoine. Individual assassinations are going to work.... (maybe we should check in on the Palestinians)..... And, demonstrations (because they've been so damned effective)... Leave the nationalist BS aside, otherwise we just sound like Deniz Baykal.
Hold the press...surreptitious Serjik has supposedly "given two great speeches" and his clandestine attempts at selling out our cause, history, and land is forgotten because of the stalled diplomatic footering about of arch enemy Turkey. Hilarious...
Official Yerevan doesn't have a clue what its doing in playing Russian roulette. Giving up our claim to Western Armenian lands, allowing the Turks to even consider meddling into the issue of Artsakh on behalf of Azerbaijan and backtracking on a signed protocol regarding our history AFTER the signing only shows the diplomatic naivety and illustrious hubris of Yerevan cronies with little semblance of diplomacy let alone an understanding of legal repercussions.
I'm willing to bet that you, AR are one of those Yerevan sympathizers on the take desperately trying to convince the rest of us Armenians how to accept concessions with a smile and relinquish more of rights without a whimper in exchange for chump change and half smiles from corrupt curmudgeons in Brussels and DC. Am I wrong?
Where's the evidence supporting your claim that anybody is "giving millions of dollars to politicians in DC to get the AG bill passed"?
I wouldn't consider you "wrong" per say AR, just misguided or misguiding. Neither of which is constructive nor terribly convincing.
My sincere appreciation to you Gayane for your thoughts and prayers for films about the Armenian Genocide.
Regarding SG's comments, i.e. Hrant Dink's quote about Turks not being able to accept the despicable acts their recent ancestors have done, we Armenians need to help (I emphasize the word help) the Turks to see a different model, one that condemns the criminals (like Talat Pasha) and lifts up as heroes those Turks who acted with courage, i.e. protected Armenians, during the Genocide. The film I'm working on, Red Harvest, does exactly this. One of the main characters, Asaf, portrays a person that actually existed who risks everything to help Armenians. In the end, he pays for this with his life. Talat of course is the chief antagonist of the film.
The idea here is that people generally are not black or white but rather shades of gray. We all struggle with right and wrong in this life, the question remaining, as to what we do with that knowledge.
Bravo Khatchig. Reparations for the genocide is indeed a necessary part of genuine reconciliation with Ankara that we shall see through to fruition. Like most other victim groups that have suffered genocide and then recovered their stolen assets over time, we are no different and should not settle for dolma diplomacy instead. When will Sarkisian devise a set a reparation protocols with Ankara?
thank you Dikran for your email to Beck. You said exactly what I wished to have said.
I believe that the accompanying background laughter to his words were the most ugly but showed the ignorance of he and his staff.
Moderators,
Are derogatory words insulting one's religion or one's religious feelings, like those found in the comments by Ahmet and Karekin, are at all allowed on your site?!
Thank you, Gayane jan... You should read, if you haven't already, what this shur tvats Karekin wrote in Sassounian: Did Turkey’s Ambassador Really Lobby for Passage of the Resolution? I quote: "if anyone really wants to avoid an alien religion, they might do better to go back to the original Armenian sun-oriented pantheon and Zoroastrianism, instead of worshipping the ideas of some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks."
Insulting Our Lord and Savior... Even a Turk wouldn't have done it...
Jesus Christ!
Taguhi
Without question, Glenn goofed on this one. No doubt he doesn't know much, if anything, about the Genocide. But, folks, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. You get more truth in his one hour tv program than all the lame-stream media lapdog "journalists" combined!!!
Vtiger, Manooshag, Melik, Ourfatsi, you are absolutely correct.
Turks are doing the SAME THING.. trying to stir everyone away from April 24th recognition of the Genocide.. I say NEVER EVER try to host their request, ESPECIALLY in the month of APRIL.. we all know their game...
Why are we so blind, and why do we always fall into the same trap? like the test mice.. our govt should wake up and taste the bitter air when it comes to trusting Turkey's diplomatic approaches.. i just hope Armenia rejects this vist..
TO THE ARMENIAN GOVT: stop this ignorance, and nonsense..we are tired of it...
Gayane
After reading this article, I could not help but swell up with tears in my eyes... It was very emotional.. especially the poem...
One govt would be out of his right mind to think that justice and truth can be bought with money.. I see glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel but our govt is not even close to where it needs to be......
AR,
even though alot of money is spent on the politicians in DC, we still need these people.. i would love to see our wealthy individuals spending money in ARmenia.. without our wealthy Armenians, a regular citizen can't do much.. I would love to help Armenia.. and i do with very little money i have.. i wish i can do more.. that is why gathering up the powers of our wealthy individuals who can afford spending their money to better some aspects of our Armenia, then people who have little or nothing can use their time and other resource to add to the help.. our combined efforts will go along way..
We are only strong if we work as one body...
Gayane
Bravo... God bless you both Dr. Dadrian and Akcam for your excellent work.
We will be waiting for that book in English...
Gayane
Hey, Karekin,
It'd be more appropriate, in my view, to address Newton’s law of motion to the Turks, because it is their action in the first place that generated the reaction of the Armenians. Don’t you think? Had they shown compassion by recognizing their crime and repenting, it’d no doubt generate compassion on the part of the Armenians. This is the only way how both people ought to look at the past.
P.S. Many people posting comments here may be faithful Christians. I, for one, am a strong believer in Jesus Christ. Posting derogatory words about any religion or knowingly offending other peoples’ religious feelings doesn’t give credibility to your peace-loving, humane appeals and certainly characterizes you as a dishonorable man. May God forgive you!
Great advice! The article was a who-t!
I DONT' KNOW WHOM TO ADDRESS,MANOUSHAG,TIGER ,OURFATSI,MELIK.
COMPTRIOTS!!!! INDEED GREAT TURKEY IS VERY MUCH CONCERNED,ALARMED,LEST TERM GENOCIDE BE USED BY U.S. PRESIDENT,WHICH IS A LEGAL TERMINOLOGY AND ATOMATICALLY MAES CULPABLE RESPONSBLE FOR CRIME.THENCE ALL THESE MANEUVRINGS..
I RECALL(though I don't hold the man in esteem,i.e., LTP) whe he met Turgut Ozal-ex -pres. of Turkey.it was reported in Paris's "Haratch Daily,then...that Mr. Ozal(read, or can also read Gozal-means pretty,though he was a very ugly ma),.let us get to the point.He told LTP, "forget about the Genoice and let us get on and we can be very friendly with you..."to that effect.To which LTP-Levon Ter etrossian a very Camaleon type person..at lesat had that much gutts or brians to reply"EVEN IF I GIVE IN AND ACCEPT WHAT YOU PROPOSE, MY PEIOPLE WLL NOT.."he knew of curse that the arseille, B-Aires, Boston,.S.Fracsco, L.A. Sydney,Beirut, Tehran ,Lyon Paris. Hayortis would unanimously STAND UP AND TELL HIM OFF..SO THIS IS THE SITUATION NOW ...MORE OR LESS...
INSTEAD OF MR. OZAL the powers that be,especially in D.C. have not grasped as yet-unfortuately...that the millions of Armenians whether in Ra or all above cities and yet rovinces ...will not give up GENOCIDE RECOGNITION BY -ESPECIALLY-GREAT TURKEY,WETHER IT TAKES A YEAR, TEN OR 20, IT IS THERE...TO BE PUSED THROUGH AND CULPABLE BROUGHT TO J U S T I C E...
FOR THE WORLD OWES US JUSTICE......
SO DO NOT BE ALRAMED,PRESIDENT OF ARMENIA WILL NOT DO THAT EITHER...IF LTP DID NOT DO SO...
Dear Mt. Ararat - please learn how to read things in context and not have a knee jerk reaction. My comment about religion had to do with Takuhi's apparent indignation that Armenians were forced to adopt an 'alien' religion. The point is that Christianity too, is an 'alien', non-Armenian religion, that's all. I don't want to walk into or open a religious debate or discussion here. If anything, however, the Armenian version of Christianity is probably my favorite, due to it's oriental nature, the vestiges of Zoroastrianism that remain and its somewhat unique approach. All that aside, while I truly would like to see an honest apology from the Turkish govt, so this can all go away, I did appreciate the apology letter written and signed by 30,000 Turkish intellectuals. It was a good start and in some way, put pressure on their govt. to do the same. But realize, this can only come from within Turkey, if it is to be genuine and lasting, and cannot be imposed from outside. I guess that's where we differ...I don't believe banging the drum over and over is the proper way for Armenians to achieve their goals. It hasn't worked in 95 years...so, maybe it's time for a new strategy...one that has a different tone. I've seen and heard that from Pres. Sarkisyan. Hopefully, it will continue and we will continue to see a more mature response from Turkey.
Look Takuhi...please grow up and please, face the facts: Christianity is not an Armenian religion. This is not an 'insult' to anyone, it is fact. However, if you really insist on seeing it that way, you may need to expand your consciousness and realize that the real message, at least as interpreted by the Armenian and other oriental orthodox churches, was that Jesus was a divine figure..(this is monophysitism)...meaning, that he was God. I'm not arguing that, however I see and interpret this teaching as saying to us that we are ALL divine creatures (we are created in God's image, right?), and if we act in a divine way, we will be kind and respectful of every human being...Christian or not. As a result, there will be less war, less injustice, less torture, less human indignity and more humanity and love for all humans, no matter who they are. So, I urge you to learn about and adopt a more authentically Armenian version of Christianity, as it really is very special and unique in the world, because it is respectful of others and does not preach an arrogant, superiority...it knows how to live w/ others... and has admirably incorporated many components from its earlier religious past into the new religion - that by the way, was adopted solely for political reasons, if you check your history books.
I object to SasnaLerner also. I am totally anti-nazi and anti-Hitler. The insult was totally inappropriate as it is inappropriate for "fascist" people to parade around with pictures of Obama pictured as Hitler. These fascist people include followers of certain political candidates and certain settlers in Israel. Sorry people, Obama is no Hitler either.
You should save your insults for the real Hitler. By the way, homogeneous is really prejudiced isn't it? (diversity and tolerance is the way, isn't it?).
Calling the USA an artificial nation. OMG, it is not fascist nor communist. It is a democracy. Maybe you have never lived in one or understand the idea. USA is far better than the soviets or any other totalitarian state.
You trivialize the words "Hitler," "Genocide", etc. when you use them too loosely and inappropriately. I am for women's and gay rights, something no Hitler will ever be.
I said doesn't it make you anti-semitic or anti-Armenian if you or someone else finds out one of my relatives has Jewish or Armenian blood?
I said doesn't it make you anti-semitic if you keep calling Ataturk Jewish, when it is not known he was Jewish; or if so, how very little Jewish blood he had; and that he was muslim and in no way concerned with a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world, but rather in pan turan.
I would like to also add: please be careful how you use the term "genetic" : in our genes, genetic engineering. Because it has racist connotations. What you probably should be referring to is: it is in our memory; it is part of our MORALITY, our teaching to be a moral human being, a choice left to human beings in their conscience.
Putting new genes in a person may not change his moral choices, his morality.
Maybe not.
Karekin – Have you ever considered converting to Islam, applying for Turkish citizenship, and changing your name to some Ahmet or Murat or Tallat? No, seriously? Because as a newly-cooked Muslim Turk your comments would sound more authentic and credible, so to speak, to the Armenian readers, rather than under the name ‘Karekin,’ a name of an honorable Armenian fedayi and political thinker Karekin Nzhdeh, an Armenian Braveheart who fought the Turks in the years of genocide. Even a Turk wouldn’t insult us in such a disgraceful manner as you did. You’re talking about compassion and kindness, but outrightly blaspheme our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, whose teachings were exactly about these all-human virtues. There must be something fundamentally wrong in your psyche, man, but as a Christian I’m not allowed to judge others in order not to be judged. May God be your judge...
Karekin;
I mean no offense to you personally or to your prophet Mohammad (as it’s below me to derogate anyone’s religious relics) but rare, out-of-the-ordinary species like you are called “up-end” or “shur tvats” in Armenia. The term refers to individuals who suffer from xenophilia, whose reasons for excessive affinity with and interminable admiration for alien cultures can be found in natal and adolescent experiences of their parents. These are essentially weak-willed and self-deprecating individuals who can easily resort to obsequiousness and genuflexion in virtually all life situations.
I believe you owe an apology for your misdemeanor for insulting Jesus Christ to all those commentators in this page who consider themselves his followers.
Dave, check in on the palestinians? 1945 Palestine ....1948 Israel?1995 Yigal Amir shootYitzhak Rabin a man of peace,(they retired him in some kibbutz i Negev). 2000 resolution to recognise the Armenian Genocide Shimon Peres a politician?not an historian made this statement (we reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations nothing similar to a holocaust occur it was a tragedy what the Armenians went throughbut not a genocide.(Peres = vulture)
How can we leave the nationalist aside...... ( it is...BS... we are living in that era as long as we pull our heads abouve it.we also have Deniz Baykal among us)...... as long as its not use Excessive patriotism;Chauvinism;
most of all we need unity.do you think will ever see that,as said by Henry Ford.
coming together is a beginning.
keeping together is progress.
working together is success.
Maybe one day?
sorry Dikran why did i call you Dave reference my last comment
Karekin,
If you now have a knee jerk reaction so to misinterpret my unselfconscious reaction re: a specific passage in your comment, and not how it needs to be read in context, I’d like to introduce your blasphemous passage in its entirety. You wrote:
“And, if anyone really wants to avoid an alien religion, they might do better to go back to the original Armenian sun-oriented pantheon and Zoroastrianism, instead of worshipping the ideas of some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks.”
No Muslim that I’ve met in great numbers and, actually, worked amongst them for years in the Middle East, would ever dare to call Son of God ‘some carpenter’ and his Mission and miracles as ‘magic tricks’ because even in Koran Jesus is a prophet; Mary, his mother, is revered by the Muslims as the whole Sura is dedicated to her, and Christians are considered ‘People of the Book’ whom prophet Mohammad specifically urged his believers to respect. But you did, and I’d like to add my outrage to that of several commentators in these pages in that you should be ashamed for your derogatory words and should apologize for insulting our Lord and Savior.
For your information, and the fact is so world-wide known that I don’t care whether you read it in context or outside the context, Christianity has been an Armenian religion for 17 centuries starting 301 AD and it has NEVER been alien to the Armenians because it were Armenians THEMSELVES who voluntarily adopted it, and not been forced to adopt. By adopting Christianity as their state religion Armenians thus became the first official Christian nation in the history of the human civilization.
I’d like to omit any counterarguments that a plethora of commentators here presented re: the paramount need for the Turks to apologize and repent for their crime (read: action) which will only then lead to compassion and forgiveness by the Armenians (read: reaction).
Karekin – Not only do you insult most sacred Christian relic, but you keep posting wicked and distorted views on these pages. One may suspect after reading them that, like some Turkish commentators here, you, too, may be on the Turkish payroll to try to mindflip Armenians. If you truly wish to see an honest apology from the Turkish government, then post comments in the Turkish discussion forums, not here. If you think the apology ‘can come from within Turkey, if it is to be genuine and lasting,’ then where has it been the past 95 years? The majority of observers believe that it is precisely because of the pressure imposed from outside that the Turks now fidget in their seat. Recognition hasn’t worked in 95 years for a variety of reasons, mostly geopolitical, economic, and military. Because up until 1991 there was a Cold War confrontation between the West and the Soviet Union, between the North Atlantic alliance and the Warsaw Pact. One fundamental reason is that the independent Republic of Armenia has become a player in the international arena for 18 years now. I do think that Diaspora’s efforts before Armenia’s independence have prepared a solid ground form Armenia, as a subject of international law, to advance recognition campaign in an official capacity. About ‘a new strategy that has a different tone’ that you’ve ‘heard’ from President Sarkisyan, first, you never know what politicians say out loud and what they really think; when they pretend to play the games imposed by the powerful and when they tacitly advance national agendas. Besides, Serge Sarkisyan does not represent the Armenian nation: he’s an unelected, unrepresentative president of Armenia and is not so respected in the Diaspora either due to his defeatist stance on idiotic Turkish-Armenian protocols. From the historical perspective, it is nations, not presidents who ultimately determine their destiny and stand to defend their dignity.
Listen Karekin, don’t you dare to tell me to grow up and expand my consciousness without even knowing who you’re exchanging comments with. I consider it below me to derogate people like you, all I can do is to pity you and ask Lord Jesus to forgive you for insulting Him as ‘some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks.’ It is this insult to our Savior and not your perverted comment re: Christianity that outraged me and many commentators here. You’re free to interpret Christianity however you wish, but don’t you dare to insult Jesus with your dirty words. How can anyone believe that your appeals for love, compassion, humanity, and kindness are genuine when you insult the Divine One, whose preaching was precisely about Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness for all the mankind?
Christianity has been the Armenian religion for 1700 years. The fact of the matter is that it was Armenians who adopted it as an official religion in 301 AD under the King Tiridates III. And Armenians have done so WILLINGLY, for your knowledge. No one forced us to adopt the new religion, as your Turks practiced with Islam imposing it on Armenians under the threat of death. Do you appreciate the difference or I need to repeat the truism?
Yes, Armenian Christians need to forgive, for it is written in the Holy Bible based on God’s words: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their [enemies’] foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them.” (Deuteronomy 32:35). All Armenians want is for Turks to apologize, because we know that their punishment will come from God. Is this too much to ask for, Karekin?
Jesus died on the Cross for your sins, too, Karekin. I strongly believe he loves you even though you insulted him by calling him 'trickster'. Jesus said on the Cross: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
And I can only forgive you, too.
In order to have an open discussion it is important to get away from the boundaries of a restrictive ideology and focus on some real issues, without the constraints of your own, personal mindset. Let's just say that if you see fit to try and 'insult' a fellow Armenian by invoking the word 'Turk', don't bother. That won't work. You should also realize that Armenians have changed their religion fairly often in the course of history and that yes, there are Armenians of all faiths in the world...even quite a few Muslim Armenians, such as the Hemshinlis. I don't care what religion you are, as long as you not only see fit to uphold Armenian rights, but also universal human rights. I will say it again, if you want to be treated well, you must treat others well, even those you don't agree with, because when you stop doing that, you are putting yourself into a category that is not very flattering or respectable.
Karekin, you completely discreditted yourself in this discussion... May God give you wisdom.
Where is your apology, Karekin? Oh, sorry, I forgot that you act similar to your Turkish brethren who've made it a habit not to apologize for crimes or explicit religious insults...
Dikran,
I would ask that you translate what you said to Ahmet (the worst enemy to intellect and tact) so that we understand what you advised him.. That way, we will have a better way to comment to you ... I don't want to point out that this is an Armenian site and we are all Armenians... It is (in my opinion) rude to write something in Turkish.. I personally can't stand seeing it or reading it...
Thank you
Gayane
A little knowledge can be a tricky thing. It can easily lead you down the wrong path if not handled with clear motives and understanding.
I don't claim to be a religious expert, but it is my opinion, that there is some misconception regarding the characteristics of a divine nature in Karekin's comments above and problems with the conclusions drawn from these misconceptions.
I agree that, if we accept the Christian teachings, we are all created in the image of God. But what is this image? If we are created in His image, how are we to behave. Loving? Yes. Respectful? Yes. Read I Corinthians 13: 4-8 for more examples.
But this is only part of the picture. There are numerous examples in the bible that paint a picture of God as a being that abhors sin and exacts justice. And Jesus Christ showed the money-changers, in no uncertain terms, what he thought of their desecration of His father's house.
I take my example from both parts of this divine image. I don't hate the Turks. I don't seek revenge on them. I have and would again gladly sit down and have coffee/tea with a Turk who wanted to engage in a fair dialogue about the genocide or who just wanted to be my friend. But I can't simply turn away from the atrocities that happened and toss them up to the mistakes of fallible beings. My God-created nature requires me to seek a just resolution, as well as a reconciliation with my enemy based on the tenets of love shown to me through my faith.
For me, this reconciliation requires first, an admission of guilt, followed by an attempt at making restitution. What form this restitution should take, I am not sure. But I don't believe that seeking a just resolution means you have not "expanded your consciousness" sufficiently. For me, it is a moral imperative to set the world right when things have gone so horribly wrong.
And yes, Armenians have a beautiful and unique interpretation of these divine teachings based on our 3000 year old history in that part of the world and it has been incorporated into our Christian expression. But humility and lack of "superiority" doesn't equal tolerance of gross injustices that offend God and civilized humanity.
Yes it would be a better world if people behaved more like their divine nature; more loving, more just, less war, less violence. But I don't think allowing violence and injustice to go unchecked is the way to this better world.
All that being said, I sure would love to hear more dialogue about what reconciliation and restitution would look like.
Dear inventor, Dr. Damadian,
It has been more than 10 years now we have the MRI in our medical center, St. Marc Medical And Diagnostic center. I wonder how the world would be without that system in the diagnostic medicine. We are so proud of you. I wonder if you could come over to the middle East-Beirut so we could honor you in a proper way.
Commemorating this courageous American visionary is a noble deed but I would rather see Sarkisian make serious headway through legal channels to secure Wilsonian Armenia. Sarkisian can and should take the tangible legal steps necessary to reclaim the assets of our martyrs.
The survivors and kin of those who survived the Holocaust continue to reclaim their rightful legal assets to this very day. Our collective rights to our ancestors assets are no different and we have no reason to settle for anything less than what rightfully belongs to us. When will Sarkisian draft a set of reparation protocols?
What kind of tangible legal steps exist to secure land from another country? All countries believe in having territorial integrity, so I see little chance of this happening.
Good for him and us- we need to let them know-the Jews do it everywhere and they succeed-no matter what-though we may not want to hear it or see it-we feel it-100%. KEEP THE FLAME ALIVE-we shall win our lands back and populate the homeland they stole and pillaged
I HOPE the two nations can have PEACE one day and go one with their lifes.
NO NORMALIZING RELATION WITH PRO CONDITION
GET AWAY CLINCTON LEAVE ARMENIA FREE
WE DON'T NEED TURKISH CRIMERS RELATION, YOU BETTER
GO AND SOLVE PALESDINIAN PROBLEM
LEAVE ARMENIA TO ARMENIANS
I find it interesting that six or so months after I wrote the article in question, it has continued to be of interest, considering what I wrote has been shown to be accurate, to the chagrin of some: no Karabakh give away, no re-validating the Treaty of Kars, no dumping of genocide recognition, and other hysterics.
Sargsian played the game well, having translated huge international pressure into a chess game the Turks chose not to match. Furthermore, Sargsian was then able to take advantage of Ankara’s lack of resolve: Chatham House speech, various warnings to Turkey, and his Der Zor speech, as examples.
Was it luck? It is irrelevant. The chess game continues...
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
Hey Justice Seeking Armenian:
Tangible steps to acquire land from Turkey you say! Tell us, just which country would be willing to go to war with Turkey to secure Turkish lands for Armenia? What's in it for them? No country will do anything to help Armenia get anything! Understand that and move on already!!! You're ALL about to find out that you 100 year old con job of garnering sympathy from Christian nations has all been for naught!! Not only will Armenia never get a penny from Turkey, it'll never get a grain of soil either! What it might get however, is get it's ass kicked in a coordinated Georgian, Turkish and Azerbaijani strike (after all, you dashnaks have pissed off quite a few people over the years)!!
Bravo, paron Davidian. You continue being perhaps the only voice of sanity we had regarding this matter...
Hey Turk Robert, where you and your 70 millions Turks were hiding when the justice seeking Armenians were liberating their homeland from Azerbaijan? Only a fearful nation will close its borders.
Hello Armine
I am sorry for the late response as I have been away. I would like to briefly respond to some of your comments.
1) How do you know that the last thing on Armenian government’s “to-do list” was to induce rapprochement with the Turks? Are you part of the government? I agree there is intense international pressure to come to a resolution on the Armenian/Turkish question but that pressure is also on Turkey. Are you so naive to think that a small country like Armenia can follow an independent foreign policy?
Why should Armenia just wait for the US to declare the Armenian genocide? We have been fooled time and time again. And you know very well the Turkish and the Jewish lobby will prevail again. This is a prediction I am willing to take bets on.
2) I will also admit that I poorly phrased my sentence when I said an apology, land reparations and billions of dollars from Turkey would NEVER happen. I should have said would never happen in my LIFETIME. However correct the examples you give, your argument has holes. You give many examples of events that occurred in history one would never have expected. But I can give you many examples of peoples or cultures that disappeared because of wrong decisions or plain irrelevance. Mayans, Aztecs, Toltecs, Olmecs, Incans, just to name a few. Do you think they would have predicted they would just end up in the history books?
3) The Armenians have so far completely outmaneuvered the Turk in defining the protocols. The Constitutional decision, Chatham House speech, warnings to Turkey, and the Der Zor speech. And yes, Armenia won the Artsakh war but they won it with the help of Russia. If Russia didn’t back the Armenians, we would not have won that war.
4) If Turkey ties their ratification to the Karabagh issue, then the Armenian government will walk away. End of story. Even I wouldn’t support it.
5) You say the Armenian government is not legitimate. You may be right. There are only about 30 governments in the world that are legitimate. But let’s put that argument aside. If Ter Petrossian had won, do you honestly think he would have done something differently? He was the one who originally wanted to come to an agreement on Karabagh.
Last point. I was in Armenia last years. Two out of three Armenians I talked to given the opportunity would leave Armenia for greener pastures. You may have plenty of time living in the comfort of North America to wait for an agreement with the Turks that suits YOUR needs. But Armenians in Armenia need to look to their future. Otherwise there won’t be a country left to fight for.
The Armenians government has been dealt a difficult set of cards and they are playing them very well.
What has been shown about the above that of an incomplete and less than useful picture to assess the political conditioins of the region. The "interest" by most is due to emails that notify them of comments by random bypassers.
If sanity is closing one eye and half-covering the other, then that sort of sanity should be outlawed.
Mr. Harut Sassounian, please post a few photographs regarding your visit to Artsakh. You should publish an article regarding shifting policy of Serge Sargsyan.
To:Boyajian
As always...wise and appropriate comments. Thanks
G
Dear brothers/sisters,
maybe you heard my name, maybe not. I come here often to read my peoples news and comments because i am an Armenian but also I am a Turkish Republic citizen. I cant say i like the politics or system but i like the people and country so please RESPECT when you write something about Turkey and Turkish people, avoid writing hateful and discriminating words.
My greetings from Istanbul to whole world where there is an Armenian.
Peace,
Alen
The legal basis for Armenian land claims is dependent on the merits and force of international law.
On November 22, 1920, the arbitral award of US President Woodrow Wilson decided the frontier between Armenia and Turkey. The arbitral award granted the Republic of Armenia a part of our historical heartland, in the north-east. This decision put in place thereafter and enforced forever a ruling which is binding, legally inviolable and perpetual for the existence of our rights, all in accordance with international law.
The arbitral award was realized on the basis of the unqualified compromis of Turkey and Armenia, upon which many countries including the US enforced upon signing as binding, inviolable and perpetual. In adherence with international law, the arbitral award is to be implemented in accordance with the compromis and without reservation.
To see the arbitral award bearing the Great Seal of the United States of America, signed by the US President, and co-signed by the Secretary of State visit: http://www.wilsonforarmenia.org/
The legal force of these documents outlining the borders between Turkey and Armenia can serve as a basis for claiming our rights at the UN International Court as depicted on Wilson's map. Sarkisian and his legal team would do well to revisit the legal merit of Wilsonian borders and the stipulated agreements that follow from such obligations.
Dearest Robert, unlike others we are not so crass a people as to instigate war in order to reclaim our rightful belongings. Legal channels and diplomacy have worked wonders for us until now. Perhaps one day, your own 'leaders' in Ankara will find value in this more civilized approach to governance...
Slayers prayand kill to live.
We pray to be killed.
At the end
No one will save us.
We prayed enough for the same god.
Karekin (is that really your name or are you using this to disguise your identity?)
You are still the enigma that we labeled you in the past.. you are a confused individual... I tried to understand you; however now I don't want to understand you because I dont' really care to understand you.. You speak of unity, love and peace.. yet you dont' see that your words do not match what you are yourself... Few of my commentators requested to see your comments on Turkish sites; yet no response from you.. why is that? is it because you are a fluke, fake individual who spreads confusion and mixed emotions only among Armenians? Why don't you show us that your passion, love and peace wishes are directed to Turks as well... please do share...
Tagui jan.. thank you so much for sharing the link with me.. Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to read any of the comments on that site...but I read every single one of them, 100 + comments after I clicked on your link... I am disgusted by what Karekin said.. NO ONE and I repeat NO ONE should insult the fairth that Armenians accepted as their state religion... The religion that many died for.. Many shed their blood in vein because Turks wanted us to forcefully convert to Muslims... NO ONE should dare to insult our Savior .. and I am 100% with you and I support your comments.. Shame on Karekin for saying what he said...and I know that any man who speaks of Devil and follows the Devil's work will answer to God when the judegement day comes....
Also, Taguhi jan...I read comments from Ahmet, Robert (his Turkish brother), Pontus, AB, Burak Con, ect .. as usual, their uneducated, blocked minds do not allow them to get over their insecurities and ignorance to open their closed eyes and finally see the situation as is... however, as you, myself and millions of Armenians learned from our Jesus Christ's teachings, we need to forgive as that they don't know what they are doing... we need to forgive as they themselves do not yet understand how ugly, dark and vicious their true nature is..until they come to grips with their inner selves and seek out the truth and purity, they will not stop spitting the venom that they keep in their hearts and minds..
Ahmet is one individual who needs cleansing of them all... I read his comment where he said something like if Armenians knew Islam and Muslims as well as Turks know, Armenians would have converted a long time ago.. I will rather accept death than convert to Islam... You small minded sick individual...
AB,
Thank you for allowing me to visit my ancestral lands..however, I don't need your permission or any Turk's permission.. I will visit my ancestral lands when it is ours again.. as long as it is under Turkey's claws, I do not feel safe or comfortable to put foot on it... even though my heart bleeds when I think that instead of having its lawful owners taking care of the land and country, it is the under Devil's command..
Boyajian jan... as always, your comments as exceptional... I get gratitude reading your comments.. Katia is another individual I admire a great deal.. Her words are as powerful as yours...
Dr. Deranian, I can't wait to see the finished film.. please let us all know if you need anything.. we will work as one and help to make this a reality to be shared with millions.... I hope everyone on this site agrees that only together and supporting each other, we can become successful.
Thank you to all my Armenian comrades for your comments as well... I truly value and proud that we have people who are willing to fight and stand up to injustice and unfairness...
God Bless you all
Gayane
its our time, we are here now, we are golden bright lights. just sit back, and watch, the writing on the wall..take the comfort, it's for your eyes, only. don't be tempted to utter a word.
Dear John and Seda,
Thank you for putting this Avetis guy in place..
I don't get it Avetis... from your Armenian writing, I can tell you are an Armenian from Armenia.. am i correct? If so, what possessed you to stand up and bravely announce your support for Serj??? Are you related to him??? is that why? If so, I can understand.. if not, then why the hell would you talk to your fellow Armenians in such way? You speak like we are Turks.. You use words such as "you people" "you Armenians", ect.. like you are part of Turkey and you don't belong to our nation.. You are an insult to all Armenians.. I am sorry to say...Like many of my comrads stated, instead of portecting a president who has not done one good thing for his people, why don't you put your efforts and join those who fight against evil, and injustice. Once Serj and his mafia is out of govt, and a decent president is elected by ITS OWN PEOPLE, maybe then the population will stand behind his president and support his every efforts because they will know they have a president who will not betray them like Serj and his gang did.. A good president should be politically savvy, know the mind game and play the political game like no tomorrow...but at the same time not be afraid to put his foot down.. you are telling me that Serj has all these qualities and we need to support him? What a joke.....Serj does not possess anything worth to be a president nor his mafia including Nalbandian.. please spare me your preaching because it will not fly among those Armenians that you call "you people"...
Gayane
Gayane
To Hagopn;
Believe in what you want to believe. It is not my concern. I am writing my own views and thoughts. That's the way it should be, you tell your opinions, I do my own.
I see that not all Armenians are of the same opinion, just like not all the Turks are of the same opinion, that makes me hopeful about the future. Things are in constant changing, neither you, nor your Turkish counterparts will change this fact. The days are to come that the peace will prevail between peoples.
Yes, friend, we are the world.
Mr. David Grigorian
You have ducked the issue I have raised (that the so-called ‘forum’ you pretend to have co-founded did not bother to respond to Armenians who expressed interest in participating).
Please address my main issue with your so-called organization (the object of my comment) and avoid personal attacks in the future.
I would also like to add: had I been the person in charge of organizing an Armenian Forum, I would have expressed some remorse at ignoring (hopefully unintentionally) some fellow Armenians’ requests to participate. I would have gone further and stated unequivocally that 'all' Armenians are welcome to the Armenian forum I organise.
Armen Vahramian (simply Armenian)
It's quite sad to see my fellow Hayrenageetsner exposing their suspicious, closed minds yet again. If anything, Armenians need to realize that we can be our own worse enemies, sometimes. Seeing a 'Turk' behind every curtain is just plain stupid. You have no idea what you're talking about. Moreover, no one seems willing or able to look outside the box to find new solutions to nasty old problems, and can only support those who are in complete agreement w/ them in a mindset that doesn't work. This is the classic definition of a rut. If you can't get out of it and be open to positive change, that's where you will stay, and continue to complain forever. At least Khachig has made an intelligent effort...that's more than most of you seem capable of doing. Though, you probably accuse him of being a 'Turk' for all his hard work, as well.
Park kez der, Astvadz mer...please open your minds.
Karekin: My negative experience with Turks has been with more than one person. And they were not among what people might commonly refer to as the less educated; the people I tend to meet are in high academic circles. One supposedly highly regarded professor of law and his wife were a case in point. They were angry at me the moment I introduced myself as Armenian. I said nothing about the genocide, just that my grandparents also were from Turkey. But I got a stern sort of irate comment: "I'm not convinced there wasn't killing on both sides!!" I just didn't say anything; it wasn't the place for that kind of discussion. I tried to have a conversation. I was polite and told them I was happy to meet them when they were leaving, which received a sneering laugh. The wife wouldn't even speak to me. Kemalism is bad for those raised with it and steeped in its values. And guilt works in these people as if they are personally insulted to think what could have happened. The reason they behave as if they do is because they expect me to hate them, and I don't. The truth is the truth. On the other hand, I have also pointed out positive experiences with Turks -- at least four very memorable people who understand openly full well what happened and were completely accepting of it. Unfortunately they are in the minority. In some way I suppose it is possible that average people may be more 'kind' than the more highly educated.
But truly, Christianity insists that repentance comes with forgiveness. The admonition to forgive your brother seventy times seven comes with a set of instructions for how things work (that is among Christians, btw) and a process of discovery of truth of the transgression. Forgiveness without truth does not have much meaning except in terms of personal ability to give up a situation to God, to not seek revenge, etc. But to settle with justice is not something that is excluded in mercy! Justice and truth are foundations of the facets of the reality of God. Not lies; the father of lies is another name for that which is against God. To accept lies is a distortion of the principle of forgiveness, and sweeping under the rug the murder of people because they were Christian is to ignore the reality of what happened. We cannot agree to that; we can't be complicit in that value system.
As for Christian doctrine: all Christians who accept the canonical bible text understand that Christ is both God and man - that is, the Son was incarnate as Jesus. Armenians have been labeled monophysite when in fact a joint conference of Greek and Armenian Orthodox theologians concluded that the theology was identical -- they just used different terms for the same concepts.
I may still consider visiting Turkey but really I am very wary of it.
PS We are made in the image of God -- and we have the free will to distort and even destroy that image by our choices. Jesus did not embrace everybody as they were - he told them the truth about what they were doing. He engaged in open conflict, and very harshly condemned the religious leadership -- those who knew better but would not open their eyes. Think about how that relates to what you are talking about. We go toward that image by practicing repentance and changing. We don't accept that people are perfect without this process; that is declaring oneself a god, the opposite of humility.
You, and the rest of the world, will wait until hell freezes over before President Obama does anything based on conscience or moral high ground. He discarded those character assets long ago, and the agenda, "the ends justify the means" is the platform from which he rules.
To: David Davidian
You’re mistaken, I’m afraid. Most recent comments here refer to remarks by some Turkish commentators that were irrespective to your article. While I understand it must be self-glorifying to presume that what you wrote ‘has been shown to be accurate,’ the fact that after six or so months your article still pioneers as the most commented suggests that it’s been the most controversial one.
It is incontestable that the known provisions in the protocols that were argued in length and that put most Armenians into a flutter, which you label ‘hysterics,’ allow for multiple, contentious interpretations. They’re so loosely stipulated and so uncharacteristically defined that one must be a prodigy or a clairvoyant to interpret them as unambiguously as you did. The very fact that these protocols contain provisions, which wouldn’t otherwise take place in Memorandums of Understanding that are being signed in dozens among the states, undermines their credibility and poses risk for the Armenian side. For these protocols to be credible and risk-free they should have contained a single clause, as it’s customarily being done in the international practice, about the readiness of both governments to establish diplomatic relations and open the border.
Ensuing course of events have demonstrated that these unwisely-drafted and potentially unsafe for Armenians documents are in impasse. As long as they’re not totally dead, can we be sure that areas surrounding Karabakh will not be given away and the status of Karabakh not denigrated given the provision that ‘reconfirms the [parties’] commitment to territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers of all states in the region’? Can we be sure that no past treaties be re-validated based on ‘the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by relevant treaties’? Can we be sure that ‘the sub-commission on the historical dimension…, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archive to define existing problems’, is not aimed at dumping of genocide recognition?
Remember this: these questions pertain to provisions that exist in an official document and are written there in black and white. Moreover, the document is signed by high-ranking executives on both sides. Given this, Serge’s Chatham House speech, Der Zor speech, or other verbal warnings to Turkey, are just speeches per se. Had he made them with no protocols in sight, I’d wholeheartedly welcome such verbal proclamations of a president, who is, nonetheless, unelected and illegitimate. But, as the proverb goes, it’s no use locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. Can we be sure that one of the objectives of Serge’s speeches wasn’t an attempt to mollify the Diaspora and his own concerned citizens? To cover a signed document, which he’s sent to the parliament for ratification, with verbiage, however emotional and touching it might be?
Lastly, it is by no means Serge’s game so one can say that he played it well or bad. Serge was whistled up to be a part of others’ game in the capacity of a pawn to help advance economic and geostrategic games of other, more powerful players. I feel sorry for those who can’t realize this trivial actuality.
GAYANE,
YES, YOU DO NOT NEED MY PERMISSION TO VISIT IT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO WAIT FOR IT TO BECOME YOUR LAND, THEN YOU WILL NEVER VISIT YOUR ANCESTRAL LAND...
Robert the turk, or rather, robert the robot - spouting Ottoman mentality - still. Incapable of learning truths that all of the world knows of a Turkey's history - the truths of the Turkish Genocide - violent tortures, slaughters, kidnappings, men eliminated, girls/women raped, women/children forced into churches and these set afire, cruelly bandidosed as vicitms soles of their feet were beaten bloody, then burst, then death... and more, and worse! Robotically , robert is well roboted by his leaders... a perfect robot for their imperfect lies. Manooshag
OK, Arto, thanks for your response. Let me go over it point by point as in your comment.
1) I know. I was a part of an ad hoc group and inducement of rapprochement with the Turks has never been a separate policy objective. Armenian-Turkish relations were considered in the context of maintaining normal relations with all states in the region with emphasis on establishing relations with the Turks without preconditions. Yet, almost noone would argue that there clearly are preconditions in the protocols. Otherwise they should have read as follows: ‘The governments of Turkey and Armenia express desire to establish diplomatic relations and open the border.’ Yes, I agree that both Armenia and Turkey were subject to intense international pressure. And no, I’m not a naïve person to think that a small country like Armenia can follow an independent foreign policy. At the core of my previous comments was precisely this conception, but my viewpoint differs as to how a small country like Armenia ought to handle such a pressure. You should still prove that by signing the protocols Armenia, and not the international community, including the US, now has an upper hand in the recognition of the genocide. My reading into these documents suggests that there’s no provision that’d place Armenia to a position where Armenia could advance recognition on its own. But feel free to prove me wrong, if you found any such provision in the protocols.
2) Noone can predict anything with precision except God Almighty. And I don’t disagree with you on this point. I just said that ANYTHING could happen because this world itself is changing and kinetic. BTW, the Soviet Union collapsed in my lifetime.
3) I don’t think the Armenians have any say, let alone anything to do to outmaneuver the Turks with regard to the protocols. This is not Armenia’s game. While I appreciate all the verbal speeches that the president gave from the emotional perspective, I don’t think that verbiage, however correct and commendable, can have prevalence over Armenia’s signature on defeatist protocols and their submission for ratification to the parliament. And partly yes partly no, Armenia won the Artsakh war with the help of Russia but with the courage of tens of thousands of the country’s sons and daughters. Armenia won the war because our soldiers were superior, both psychologically and morally, in knowing that they’re defending their own land. Had there not been such moral superiority, no Russia, or the US, or China, or all of them combined, could have made Armenia the victor however hugely they backed it. Azerbaijan, too, used Afghan mojahedins, Turkish military instructors, Islamic world’s financial support, and intelligence sources of some other countries. But they lost.
4) Well, right from the point of signing the protocols Turkey ties their ratification to the Karabakh issue, but the Armenian government didn’t walk away so far.
5) I equally despise all former and current presidents of Armenia for the past 19 years, as none of them was public-spirited and responsive to people’s concerns. As for your comparison with the world, well, you know, in other countries, there sometimes have been legitimate presidents just for a change, whereas in our country we’ve only seen one illegitimate president after another.
Last point. Who ever consulted or asked for an opinion of the Armenians in Armenia in regard to signing the protocols with the Turks? This is a deliberately-disseminated state propaganda that it is the open border with Turkey that will give ‘future’ to the Armenians. In reality, it will not. Scores of economists and other experts have raised their voice that opening the border under the current circumstances will be a disaster for Armenians from economic, national security, demographic, and ideological perspectives. Ordinary people will not benefit from border opening because given the state of Armenia’s economy it’ll be to disadvantage of their businesses. Only corrupt elites will benefit. For the better future of the Armenians a different set of things is needed: a responsible, professional government consisting of statesmen not clan strongmen; foundations for a civil society where rights of people are respected; independent judiciary system; free and transparent electoral system; abolition of clan system, nepotism, and wide-spread governmental corruption; and other democracy-building measures.
The Armenian government has been dealt a difficult set of cards, indeed, but it’s been used as a tool in the game of more powerful forces. This is not Armenia’s game to play it well or bad.
Greg orDr.enry Astarjian,or anyone else has the right to express opinion.Whether totally right or partially.Everyone may make a mistake.That is not the point.Like Saroyan once wrote in "Time magazine..just a line"After all, we are all Armenians...
It is premature to speak of taking back land.Indeed when I was a teen-ager,this is what we were encouraged to think..."Zove zov..etc.
At present we must be -or try to be-WILY...like our adversaries(only two in the world).Our next move SHOULD BE THROUGH OUR BAR ASSOC.-I HEAR ABOUT 500 STRONG-AMONGST THME SOME INT'L ATTORNEYS TO prepare RELEVANT DOSSIER-FILE ...FOR LODGING CLAIM AT THE MOST IMPORTANT INSTANCES, LIKE THE INT'L COURT AT THE HAGUE,U.N. ETC., C L A I M I N G..."blood money"..IT HAS PRECEDENT,NOT ONLY THE HUGE JEEWISH ONE AS CLAIMENT AGAINST GERMANY , BUT EVEN the small one WON BY OUR L.A. ATTORNEYS RE N.Y LIFE AND NOW AXA INSRANCE COMPANIES for Armenians that "lost' their lives in ttoman turkey...
This is most feasible.I shall later expose how,if R.of Turkey is brought to justice at above and confirmed as culprit. Meanwhile, DO PLEASE COMPREHEND THAT SOME 18/20 MILLION k u r d s DWELL ON THE WESTERN ARMENIAMN LANDS-ARMENIAN FOR MILLENIA-BUT CIRCUMSTANCES THAT DEVELOPED KURDS GREW IN NUMBER,WHILE WE DIMISHED THERE.I AM NOT INCOGNIZANT OF TURKIFIED ARMENIAS -SOME SAY 2 MILLION-THAT ARE THERE.BUT THE THICK OF THE POPULATION THERE IS KURDISH.WE HAVE TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE(LATER,WILL BE TOO LATE)DR. ASTARJIAN HAS EXPERIENCE IN THIS ISSUE...HE MUST DEVELOP THAT FURTHER AND HAVE MORE CONTACT WITH THEM.IN RA, THERE ARE AT PRESENT SOME 40/50,000 kurds/yezidis..the can also be of help.If we insist too muc for LAD..THEN PEOPLE LIKE AHMET HERE, WILL thrown in (though their gov. rep.s(Aghri DAgh*ARarat, even ruins of ANI to blow dust into the eyes of "Paremid " not to say "Basrzamid' Armeians...and just recently they have commenced repairs of churches even in the interior promising to even allow -once a year-mass to be held there.
Please try to understand the WILY twisted toikish mind...dont' kid yourself..land land
Geeral kenan Evren-theri cef of staff -when our "Khent boyes were eliminating one after aother theirr diplo rep.s said"Armenians want land...come and get it'.
So pelase do not opine childishly or teenage-stlye...in one thing Ahmet and his like are right-So lon g as they are supported by -ou know whom- we cannot demadn land from them...or think of getting back..
WHAT WE CAN DO THOUGH IS GET MORE ORGANIZED IN DIAPORA(S) to come to a supreme coucil.in france they are at it under different name"Western Armenian council" etc., but they do not as yet have a real MECHANISM...
I DO.BUT THAT MECHANIZM DOES NOT SUIT OUR DEAR PRESENT BBB'S AS ARA BALIOZIAN NAMES THEM ...
WE NEED TO EDUCATE OURSELVES THAT we m u s t converge and cooperate.Miutyun Unity is wrong expression-most probably injectedd into us by turkish agenrtsIn France there are leftists and rightists Extrmem-ultra left and s Rightists.BUT THEY BECOME ONE FIST WHEN NATIONAL ISSUE ARE AT STAKE SO MOTTO OUGHT TO BE
C O N V E R G E - C O O P E R A T E...AND DON'T FORGET "BLOOD MONEY"
TRUKS WON'T PAY i have the solution...
JUST AS ME.
Wow Janine, your words today are powerful! Thank you for expressing so clearly the interrelationship between forgiveness and truth seeking and how tolerance of untruth distorts forgiveness. I support your views on this. Thanks, also to Gary and Gayane for your supportive words.
Karekin, you continue to confuse and fascinate me. I always hesitate when considering to engage in dialogue with you. First, because you don't seem to really consider others' ideas before pontificating. And secondly, because I am very confused about your motives. Are you truly interested in elevating the consciousness of "suspicious, closed minded" Armenians? Or are you purposely putting out confusing and inconsistent rhetoric to obfuscate the issue? Maybe you are just embarrassed by those who speak with anger or righteous (not self-righteous) indignation toward denialist Turks. Where is your divinely inspired sense of empathy for the average Joe Armenian? I don't get it.
Maybe you are a Buddhist and that is what informs the pacifism and detachment you express. Your comments are full of truisms about maintaining a peaceful mindset and avoiding negative "ruts". While these truism are great when applied to one's personal life, I don't think they are very helpful when it comes to the Armenian question and the Turkish State.
Please consider this: A State is more than the sum of all its people and its power is greater than the sum of the power of its individual members. Because of this, I believe a State's responsibility with regard to its power and the consequences of its actions is that much greater than an individual member's responsibility. It's similar to the case of a corporation that is responsible for releasing harmful chemicals into the environment, poisoning water supplies and causing harm to people in its community. We don't go after the individual scientist or factory worker who was simply carrying out his duties as an employee of the corporation. But we as a society certainly expect the corporation to take responsibility for the harm it causes and to make restitution, to both the community and to the individuals harmed. Would you argue against this principle? Can you see the parallel with Turkey and those who want Turkey to make right what has gone wrong?
Consider also this: For a long time, whenever someone searched on Google for info on the Armenian genocide, Google permitted Turkish organizations to post pop-ups claiming to offer the really story of the genocide. But Google was confronted with its own motto to do no harm and called to task for allowing denialists to distort the historical record. Now Google no longer permits these pop-ups. Isn't this a good thing? A positive contribution to the world? A direct result of vocal objections to allowing a "wrong" to continue.
To Tigran H:
One tangible legal basis is the Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award that is still in full legal force. Countries may believe in their territorial integrity, but there are international laws like this one and other principles that govern them. For example, rights of people to self-determination. If you see little chance of this happening, many other see this already happening as in the cases of Kosovo, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and de-facto Nagorno-Karabakh…
Has any journalist thought about contacting Samantha Powers, who used to be a friend of the Armenian Cause and now is a adviser to president Obama, and ask her why the administrator is not recognizing the Armenian Genocide, and what can the Armenian organizations do, what modifications can the Armenian organizations do to their policies or approaches, etc, to make the Obama administration recognize the Armenian Genocide?
@Silva
US financial aid to Turkey is not something I am aware of. Get your facts straight. Don't be an ignorant. What aid R you talking about? US -Turkey economic relations are nothing compared to Turkey-Russia, Turkey- Germany or Turkey-France.
Soul of Armenian Martyrs et al.
Land is not given -asi por asi- just like that,Ossetia Abkhazia and others shed blood and fought tooth and nails for it-like we did to preserve Tenth of Wilsonian Armenia...
As to going through Legal processes ,alsovery difficult.But all FORGET CONVENIENTLY,INCLUDING ROBERT...THAT THERE ARE CLOSE TO 18 MILLION OR OVER k u r d s over West Armenia lands-grated they were there for millenia-PLEASE LEARN HISTORY- they lived sde by side with us -before the Gnekis and Timour leng came along...converted them to Islam-then each went their way..That is not the issue.We cannot overlook THAT REALITY.Instead try to make them-the kurds- understand that in not too far future great Turkey will have to come to grips with the Kurdish Question-this time over not a question of putting them on the march death march to deserts...close to 20 million...
Thence we must come to mutual agreement with the k u r d s ..I got tired of repating this on another line too.Dr. henry Astarjian or others like must make more contact-Luckily in Ra, there are 40/50,00 kurds-yezidis that are IN VERY GOOD TERMS WITH THE ARMENIANS IN ARMENIA AND THESE WLL BE INSTRUMENTAL AS WELL. IN PAVING THE WAY FOR THE WILSONIAN MAP, WHICH .....ALS GRANTED THEM-KURDS AUTONOMY..REMEMBER?
OR HAVE WE STARTECD TO THINK LIKE NEIGHBOUR TURKS..JUST OVERLOOK THEM...
AS TO REPARATIONS!!!!!!!
THIS IS THE ISSUE 'D LIKE TO BRING FOFRTH TO ALL OF YOU AND ASS O TO AS MANY AS YOU CANPLEASE.
TURKEY IS NOT A REPARATION PAYING Party unfortunately...they ave been taught,treated, educated like getting HANDOUTS FROM...YOU GUESSS WHOM MAINKLY
why unclee Samie....billions over more than 50 ears...now they cannot be changed overnightFROM THAT HABIT TO THE OTHER ONE..But from the transit duties of oil passing through TURKEY 1.6 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR...COME % CAN BE SET ASIDE BYT HE BRITISH -AMERICAN OIL COMPNAIES WHO refused to pass said btc pipeline through armenia -an enemy country eh?
SO THEY SHOULD BE pressed by respective gov.ments to set aside 1/3rd of that easy money to RA and AGBU(latter for those living outside of RA.
.We can also demand "Blood Money" which has precedent-say Jewish people from Germany?????
So o much for now...
Guaranteed she will promise him the world and that this time will be different and she will get the Turks to do this and that and guess what (?) he will fall for it again and cave in. We have been hearing the same old lies for much too long. The story goes, we can not because Turkey will not let us use Incerlik Air Basee for Iraq or Afganistan. For that I say how dare they dictate American policy especially when it was the help of American Hard Earned Tax Dollars that helped build Incerlik. We pour billions of our American Hard Earned Tax Dollars into their country and they dictate their morals to us? There is something wrong here and it has to stop now. Our leaders have to tell them that we have a commitment to our high standards & morals and if they don't like it we will stop sending them OUR MONEY that you and millions of Americans worked for especially in our hard economic times. If we give them our money they should do what WE Americans tell them to do. We have to pass this on to our leaders in Congress and our President.
To Janine:
Excellent words. You are right, sinners have to be confronted in love & truth! If they don't repent they will pay the price. Thank you for telling it as it is!
G
Progress for us in this world is difficult and slow, but the symbolism of paying respect to the one man who awarded Western Armenia to its rightful owners is a powerful message to Erodogan. Time does not diminish its value and the victims of this atrocity will not be silenced. Nice move by Sarkissian given all the rhetoric on whether Armenia has claims to Western Armenia... and what the impact of the protocols may be on our rights. This is more like it ... Armenia and Diaspora publically on the same page giving the Turkish government strong positions on the Genocide, Karabagh and the need for integrity in our relationships.
I'd rather say, "Shame on You, Ms. Levinsky!"
Yes, maybe a nice move, but nonetheless Serge put Armenia's signature on the defeatist protocols and its' still there. Serge also submitted the protocols for ratification to the parliament. I think signature under a lawful document poses more danger and has more importance over symbolic gestures of laying a wreath or giving a speech at Deyr Zor...
HAVE AMERICA TO END IRAQI AND AFGHANISTAN WARS
COZE TO IGNORE INGIRLIK BASE AT ALL, ARMENIAN-AMERICAN
OFFERING TO COUNTRY LOT IN EVERY FEILD COMPARING WITH
TURKEY, ARMENIANS GENERALY THEY DON'T WANT ANY TYPE OF
RELATIONS UNLESS RECOGNIZE GENOCIDE PERFORM BY THEM:}
Thank you, Gary & Boyadjian
To all: I was thinking more about this today. I liken it to a family in which there has been some abuse of children. What do we do? The hallmark of dysfunctionality is denial, lying, pretending nothing is wrong. But that doesn't help anything. And forgiveness becomes impossible on the child's part if the original abuse is ongoing, the wound opened over and over again. In that case, forgiveness may only come by distancing, avoiding contact, but never by lying or denying. The child has to at least tell the truth to someone, acknowledge the truth for themselves. To be complicit in the denial is just to propound the sickness, the evil, and not to heal. Maybe others can think about that analogy to a country.
boyajian - sorry I spelled your name wrong. Editors: feel free to correct the spelling in my previous post and not print this
I'm glad to hear that Sarkisian publicly dismissed any notion of preconditions and reasserted the facts of the Armenian Genocide as indisputable. However, did Erdogan sign a document agreeing to these 2 terms or was this another deceitful diplomatic stunt aimed at silencing the chattering masses in order to keep the farce of the protocols alive?
If not, this was a huge waste of time, other than the President Wilson Commemoration event, and we all know what's likely to happen upon Erdogan's return to Anakra...
To: Astarjian
Thank you for the Excellent Letter to President Obama . You have simply asked him to do the right thing! Period!
G
Of the hundreds of articles and comments I have read about the so-called protocols Davidian's piece here continues to be the most nuanced and rational. Bravo indeed, Mr. Davidian.
I am baffled and shocked at this article. Why does the writer hold Hilary responsible when we know where the Clintons stood on this subject. The treachery lies with Hilary's boss the revered President Barack Hussein Obama. Shame on you Dr. Astardjian! Have you never heard of "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!" Your "suck up" to Mr Obama nauseates me to no end. You and the Armenian leadership in the United States have played up and venerated this man to such an extent that I want to vomit violently! He lied and ridiculed the Armenian community. His very first overseas visit was to Turkey where he lavished their parliament with his words of love and affection through his beloved teleprompter. He then disrespected all Armenian Americans by referring to theArmenian Genocide as the "tragic events of WWI". What a cop out! You state, "I believed in you Mr. President and I still do" . Have you no pride man? This man just lied to you and your fellow Americans and you pander to him as if he has had his hands twisted. He had no problem treating the Prime Ministers of Britain and Israel, our strongest allies, with disdain and yet he brownnoses to the his Turkish counterpart!
Oh learned Doctor, you represent what is wrong with our Armenian leadership in this wonderful land. You cosset the liberal press and the Democrat party as if they understand, empathize and are the key to Armenian causes. My grandmother used to say that when it come to politics, there is no master of this art better than the Turk. Well for years they have worked the US system running circles around their Armenian foes. I don't see the Turks being partisan. They manipulate both parties tactfully, diplomatically and if necessary by threat to their success. Yes they have the upperhand but they play their hand masterfully. We have spent too much effort and money on this Genocideresolution.
When it comes to politics we are clearly inept and bias. The message you should be sending President Obama is that we will deliver every Armenian vote to the Republicans in November and again in 2012 if he doesn't succinctly recognize the Genocide. End of story! Even the few Democrats that are on our side should be held accountable for their leadership's position so that they exert pressure on this discredited President. Then when the Republicans take office threaten them with the same until they understand we will exercise our power through the ballot box!
Meanwhile, lets stop wasting our hard earned dollars trying to pass a resolution in a Congress that really doesn't give a hoot about the Genocide!This strategy has failed and it's time to develop a new one that we can all support. Education is the key.
What we should have done is spent these resources in developing Armenian departments in each and every University in the United States. Departments that teach Armenian language, culture, religion and history. Imagine educating the American public about who and what we are. Every school boy and girl in France studies the Armenian Genocide as a factoid of World War I. Perhaps this would be difficult to implement in the US but all Colleges in this country accept big donations. More Colleges offer Turkish language courses than Armenian. Well they are beating us at this too. Time for us to review, reflect, reorganize, develop and execute on a new long term strategy.
Thanks for this letter Dr. Astarjian!!! Once they get what they want, they "suffer" sudden loss of memory and forget about most of their pledges. I am talking about many elected US officials during past 30 years. They are NOT afraid to loose friendship with Armenia, but in the meantime are very careful with Turkey. Armenia always has been friendly to the US, as far as I remember, but maybe it is time to send a formal protest to the US government for deliberately blocking the justice and the truth for decades. To fight our cause we are using a very powerful tool (our voices), however this is not enough, because the powerful Turkish lobby is blocking our effort. We need to leverage other groups like the Jewish lobby, and engage the diplomacy of course. Our priority should be to get stronger with stronger partners, take political sides with Iran and Russia, if US doesn't pay enough respect to our cause very soon!
AB,
I would request that you turn the caps key off... If you have not been trained on e-mail or writing etiquette, writing in caps means yelling at someone... Therefore, it is only respecful to your reader if you direct them in lower case rather than caps.. I am not blind and not stupid.. I can't read just fine and I can see just fine...
And if you think we will not have our lands back one day, think again..
Gayane
History does not get written in parliaments and it cannot become a subject of condemnation by a parliament,” said Erdogan.
“We opened our archives and suggested the formation of a historical commission, however we didn’t receive a response. Decisions adopted by parliaments will not benefit Armenia,” said Erdogan.
Sarkissyan will receive a positive reaction if he stands firm if and when Obama and Clinton start pressuring him about the Protocols and tell them to shove it...Enough is enough.. however, I don't know if Sarkissyan has the balls to do it.. I hope he does not cave.. I just hope....
Thank you
Gayane
Dzovig
Your name is Dzovig...
Not a Small Sea but an Ocean
The way you're describing Youri-Yuroz paintings.
You felt how Yuri's brush moved
to hold the woman he loved.
All your phrases stanzate like Araratian Lalas...
You write from a Real Soul.
The pages was to0 long
But I felt I should read what your hearted -mind wrote.
The language is not your mother tongue
But springs of Armenian spirit
Is there with it sufferring rays---
No one can ignore.
I have published 10 poetry book
Decorating my book covers by alive Armenian painters :
by Antonyan Andrey for his painting on 'Genocide '
On the book " A Poetic Soul Shined of Genocides".
And another book " Politics Play, People pay...."
by the same painter named 'In the Circus'.
Sirunyan Vakhtang for his painting named 'Soulful Thoughts'
On the book "E-Mails Beneath Blossoming Trees".
And painting byAlexander Sadoyan of 'Sayat Nova'
on the book "Songs of Searing Desert Storms".
And another book Millennium Brains Lacrimate the cover painted by my niece Jenny for her painting Internet Head.
I am looking more painting from Armenians to put for my new books.
Please Dzovig send me their names and how to get an agreement from thems; that takes me ages.
There is so much hatred in the comments that are made. For heaven's sake we need to become far more rational in our judgements otherwise our differences will destroy our cause and we will lower our standards to those that we have a claim against.
Very accurate characterization of Turkey. Fundamentalism is on the rise, Kemalism is on the decline and Erdogan is confidently leading the charge into a new Ottoman order. The West is ignoring these developments and is maintaining the fiction that Turkey is secular, democratic, and Western, and therefore a "model" for other Islamic countries when in fact it is becoming less and less Western. Turkey's refusal to join a sanctions regime against Iran is yet another instance in which Turkey refuses to cooperate with the West. No doubt they are once again looking for a massive monetary "incentives" to get them to cooperate.
Well, states/nations are complicated organisms, not unlike individuals, just on a larger scale, so all the thoughts, truisms and psychological issues are very much the same. When a state/nation, exudes anti-social/non-peaceful behavior, and engages in anger, violence and war, there will be a backlash, usually negative. The results of the US folly of war is being felt everywhere today as the country is now bankrupt...which is very serious, but standard outcome of emptying the treasury for useless wars. The same thing has happened throughout history, back into very ancient times. This is what happened to many empires along the way, including the Ottoman Empire, and led to its demise, along w/ all the associated (and needless) death and destruction. War, anger and violence are never, ever the answer, either on a personal or state level. At the same time, I do agree w/ Janine's comments on denial - that too is destructive. But, the way to get past it is not thru confrontation or more denial. Another truism is that everyone and everything in the universe needs and will move forward, not backward. The goal is to do so in the most positive way possible. They may sound like cliches, but a rising tide does indeed lift all boats, and every action results in an equal and opposite reaction. And, let me just say that if being Christian is truly important, then so is turning the other cheek, because you really can't just pick and choose only those behaviors you approve of and ignore the others. I really don't remember Jesus suggesting that anyone hit someone back...for any reason.
Gayane
You are a real brave woman
No one should suppress you .
Who slays will not win
One day the smashed skulls
Will speak was was true--
Narrating what slayers did.
No one can grave justice,
Even after hundred decades.
If we will not see prevailing
Our grandchildren must see.
Arriving Cohorts have Internet rays
No one can decay.
Armine,
I do not take pleasure having noted an accurate analysis of events concerning the Protocol because having done so mirrors a massive inability of anachronistic diasporan organizations and members to understand international negotiations and processes, interests, and moreover that Armenia is a real country with responsibilities far beyond the parochial perceptions of the diaspora. Frankly, it is abhorrent pointing out the emperor and entire supporting cast are completely naked.
The analysis was written to offer the reader with at least some background to understand the Protocol, why it exists now and in the form it does. This was done after witnessing a solid month of viscous rant with no attempt to investigate any of the underlying facts. People read invisible text and made irrational claims, others blindly supported the Protocols. There were and continue to be very little “concurrent interpretation” of events. All opinions are not equivalent. For example, one could be of the opinion the name Armine is female based on never having met a male Armine. However, without having experience in meeting and dealing with people (investigating and checking the facts), one might simply guess that the name Armine is male because it sounds like Armen, Arman, or Armin. One would have interpreted your gender wrong (assuming this is your real name), yet felt emboldened to simply state Armine is a male name -- and why not, it’s just another opinion. Unbiased analysis and well-written opinions are not the same.
It does not take “clairvoyance” to understand policy decisions. A simple exercise in analyzing competing hypothesis is a good start. Reading the text of the Protocol without understanding its background lead many to state extremely foolish conclusions, similar to brazenly claiming Armine is a male name.
You claim, “For these protocols to be credible and risk-free they should have contained a single clause...” Stating international documents need to be simplistic to be legitimate is ridiculous.
You claim, “Ensuing course of events have demonstrated that these unwisely-drafted and potentially unsafe for Armenians documents are in impasse”. You never tell us why items in the Protocol were unwisely drafted. You never tell us why they are potentially unsafe for Armenians. You never tell us how you would provide other option(s) to deal with Armenia’s real-life political situation.
You claim, “Can we be sure that ‘the sub-commission on the historical dimension…, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archive to define existing problems’, is not aimed at dumping of genocide recognition?" How can we be sure of the opposite? The Armenian Constitutional Court effectively declared the Protocol cannot be a vehicle that would contradict the Armenian constitution. It would take a re-write of the Armenian constitution with Armenia losing its current leadership for Armenia to “dump” genocide recognition. If this seems like a Catch-22, you asked the negative question.
You claim, “Had he made them with no protocols in sight, I’d wholeheartedly welcome such verbal proclamations of a president, who is, nonetheless, unelected and illegitimate.” You may not like the conditions under Sargsian was brought to power, however you have violated the first rule of a good analyst by added your personal bias to your conclusions, and a hard one at that. You just made yourself partisan and can’t claim impartiality.
You claim. “Can we be sure that one of the objectives of Serge’s speeches wasn’t an attempt to mollify the Diaspora and his own concerned citizens?" It doesn’t make any difference. He stated it as the Armenian president and its reverberation goes way beyond diasporan pettiness.
And finally, “Lastly, it is by no means Serge’s game so one can say that he played it well or bad. Serge was whistled up to be a part of others’ game in the capacity of a pawn to help advance economic and geostrategic games of other, more powerful players. I feel sorry for those who can’t realize this trivial actuality.” I ask again what you have done as the President of Armenia. This question is posed rhetorically. You would fail. You would fail because you have demonstrated you cannot divorce your personality from cold hard reality and further have failed to contextualize what has transpired in the past six months.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
GAYANE,
I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE BLIND OR STUPID.
BUT IF YOU REALLY THINK THAT TURKEY WILL RETURN YOUR ANCESTRAL LAND BACK TO YOU, YOU ARE REALLY LIVING IN A WORLD OF DREAM.
IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN YOUR ANCESTRAL LANDS BELONGS TO OTTOMON EMPIRE/TURKEY FOR OVER 500 YEARS (EVEN MORE).
YOU SEEM CONFUSED IN YOUR HEAD : RECOGNIZING THE WRONG DOINGS OF 1914 IS NOT EQUAL TO GIVING ANY LANDS!
PLEASE YOU THINK AGAIN AND COME BACK ON EARTH...
In my view, and in the view of many other strong-willed Armenians, the best article written on the protocols is “The Final Stage of Genocide: Consolidation” by Henry Theriault http://armenianweekly.com/2009/10/11/theriault-the-final-stage-of-genocide-consolidation/. The article emphasizes the moral and ethical strength of ‘all-or-nothing’ demands that in many historical instances prevailed over schematic and, essentially, irrational and defeatist Realpolitik behavior. The passage below is, perhaps, the strongest part of Theriault’s analysis:
What is striking about [many] examples… from history–is that these all-or-nothing demands came from positions of great material, political, and military weakness and yet still succeeded because of the moral strength of the position of the “weak” vis-a-vis the “strong.” Moral legitimacy is a great force in geopolitics and is the reliable ally of the weak, oppressed, and marginalized.
Janine, I agree with your analogy to abuse, and it is not confined to cases of child abuse alone. It easily applies to others cases of abuse.
And Karekin, I really like the image of the rising tide, but I don't think a rising tide of evil should go unchecked. Also, I don't hear anyone on this site advocating "hitting back." Rather, I think people are struggling with how to come to terms and "turn the other cheek" with an ongoing offender. Several people have tried to make the point that the Turkish state not only denies and distances itself from the original atrocities but also engages in practices that re-offend. I don't doubt that most Armenians desire a rapprochement with Turks, and don't hold individual Turks responsible for what happened 100 years ago. But like the abused child, they want to have their truth heard and acknowledged by the abuser in an effort to begin the healing. Is healing impossible without this? No, but it is very difficult for the abused one to negotiate the irrational feelings of self-blame as they try to process the events, and it is this self-blame and self-deprecation that leads to the dysfunctional denial, psychopathology that Janine alluded to. It's a universal human need to struggle with questions of cause and effect and to ask the Why? questions. It is very helpful in the healing process when the abuser owns his/her responsibility.
Sorry but who is suggesting we hit Turkey back? Has anyone suggested committing genocide that you know of? How does justice under international law -- and calling a crime by its true name in legal bodies around the world in accordance with international law and agreed-upon human rights standards -- suggest "hitting back" or warfare? Or meting out an eye for an eye? It does not!
Turning the other cheek is in my opinion not meant literally in the gospels. The Sermon on the Mount teaches not to engage in revenge, and it teaches the value of mercy. But it does not preclude justice or exempt it! On the contrary, it fulfills it. As with many other stories of Christ, the reality of the whole is what is important. He did not use violence except to cleanse the temple -- would you say the same thing for that action? That he was hitting back?
Hardball is the right ball game to play by Serzh with both Turkey and USA. Both sides are using the Genocide as a leverage. Turkey wants Armenia to give up the Genocide for Karabakh. Serzh wants Turkey to drop Karabakh precondition and proceed with border openning for silence on Genocide.
Its a good tactic by Serzh to push the Genocide " pion" forward in the face of erdogan and Obama before April 24th. Its a hardball that this time may pay off.
But Serzh knows that using Genocide has a small price at home, but much bigger price in Diaspora. Serzh can do better if Diaspora is united behind him.
Next few days we will witness the results of this Hardball diplomacy. We all know very well that Genocide has been a bargaining chip for all countries, but we expect Government of Armenia to be honest with Diaspora while playing Hardball with Genocide.
Karekin – I thought you insulted Jesus on these pages and being a ‘peace-loving’, ‘compassionate’, ‘kind’, and ‘forgiving’ person (at least these are the virtues you advocate here and, strangely, to Armenians only), you never apologized to us for your blasphemy. And now you're bringing up some postulates of Jesus’ teachings? Ugh… I think the best thing for commentators in these pages would be to forgive and forget you together with all nonsense and mud that you’re disseminating here…
Gayane, boyajian et al – I think it’d be better for us and for Karekin, too, if his controversial comments are left unanswered. Let him talk to himself, or, even better, switch to the Turkish side now after he’d worked so hard to mind-flip the Armenians. Isn’t he the one who tends to force parity on the murderer and the victim, the invader and the settler, the destroyer and the builder, the denialist and the justice-seeker? Well, if he’s a true advocate for peace, compassion, kindness, and forgiveness, let’s now see how he addresses the same universal virtues to the Turks…
Gayane – A couple of commentators made a similar comment in other discussions to this AB guy re: turning caps key off, but this Turk appears to have a serious dysfunctional problem or is just being cynical to the extreme. Just ignore him… Don’t you know that the best way to defeat the opponent is by ignoring him or her?
Hillary, go to Der Zor. And stay there.
Avetis:
Aren’t you the one obsessed with putting genocide recognition and demand for apology into oblivion? An Armenophobe who is calling justice-seeking descendants of deported or barely escaped Ottoman Armenians ‘immature adults,’ ‘intellectual midgets,’ etc.? The one who makes nightmarish and utterly foolish suggestions that ‘the Diaspora is becoming a security risk for Armenia?’ The one so dim-witted as to suggest that ‘it wouldn’t matter to them if our homeland sinks into poverty, isolation, stagnation and insignificance?’ Now listen to this: Diaspora is perhaps the only most efficient policy tool that Armenia has in its possession. It’s an invaluable asset that helped and continues to help our homeland politically, economically, and culturally. And the last thing they’d want to see is that our homeland sinks into poverty, isolation, stagnation and insignificance. For our homeland not to sink into these a fundamentally different set of measures is required, such as a public-spirited and accountable government led by statesmen not strongmen; transparent elections; civil society in which human rights are protected; eradication of nepotism and corruption; independent judiciary; etc. A mere demand for justice and apology from the Turks cannot possibly denigrate our homeland.
True story: Samantha Power, our alleged friend, recently met with an Armenian American. Power said she knew Armenians were disappointed with Obama, but also said that she (Power) was too busy now with her new role in Iraq (as refugee head) to do anything.
See one Armenian's view of Power here:
http://www.azad-hye.net/article/article_view.asp?re=884gkf16
Power without principle.
As for Hillary, she wouldn't know a principle if it was in front of her nose.
To Dr. Astrajian,
Actually, those comments, if made in Armenia, would have you picked up and taken to some desolate area, where you'd be quickly executed! If you don't believe me, then go there, try it and see for yourself (assuming that you survive to report back, of course). Remember, Armenia didn't acheive a 98% national purity rate by being fair or playing nice (many of the ethnically cleansed were never found).
I agree very much w/ Alen. There is no need for anyone here to sink to the ultra-low level of Glen Beck....who is a very well known and overpublicized jerk who loves to send and incite hatred of anyone who does not look or act or believe like him. All of our families are from Turkey...and some still live there....which by the way, is really quite nice this time of year, beautiful, actually.
"Amb," Samantha Power has dropped us like a hot potato now that she's in with the big boyz. And she's already been asked to resign due to her duplicity on his issue. See:
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Putting_Principle_Over_Power:_Why_Samantha_Power_Must_Resign
Why should our social justice groups "modify their policies," which are based on restorative justice? Who are you to suggest such a thing? It is the genocide deniers who must "modify their policies."
KUDOS is due to Chairman Berman for writing this excellent letter above. Absolutely on target with every word. Chairman Berman's courage, commitment and candor is indeed commendable and indicative of a distinguished Statesman.
Members of the Turkish Caucaus should be ashamed of themselves for even considering to circulate their offensive letter laced with Ankara's drivel of balderdash.
Levon my good man.reference hated comments made?no need to look answers from the heaven`s above?look around us, its all among our Armenian organisations.they cannot understand one another, how can one be rational? in our judgements our cause and our standards.it is good to say WE NEED TO?who is the we?if their is no communications,understanding,unity,among all ARMENIANS.organizations,how can we convince the rest of world?and uphold our standards towards those that we have claim against?
Very sharp remarks Avetis! It looks like our little Armenia is about to become wasted "playing card" in the political game between US and Turkey. This "card" is possessed by the US at the moment and they will play it ONLY for their best interest, which is not the same as the national interests of Armenia. The Armenian diaspora in the US is wasting too much time and money on Genocide recognition in the US and should clearly change the objective and help Armenian economy to get stronger in all areas. Once Armenia becomes strong then who needs their money anyway
With respect to Powers, Boyadjian comments:
"Notice that since Obama’s dishonest April 24 declaration, Power has said nothing to Armenian Americans. No explanation. No apology. Nothing"
For God's sake people! You were played like a fiddle as were many Americans, by the Obama Campaign machine. You bought their BS lock, stock and barrel. What were you thinking? Did you actually believe he would be different to Bush, Clinton or the Bush before him? Did you think his predecessors were just plain evil. You think that George W, a devout Christian, didn't feel for the Armenians and their plight under the Turks? I put it to Dr. Astardjian that "W" also knows the truth and doesn't deny the Genocide off the record. But he never promised you as did Obama! Chastising Hilary and leaving the door open for Obama to revisit the Genocide is so subtle and very middle eastern. However, you clearly don't understand this political animal. They are all politicians and will do what is politically expedient. However, Obama is special. He will make promises and he will break them without remorse or hesitation. He doesn't need a door to be left ajar, he will break the door down if that is what suits him. The Persians have a saying that when you spit on a politician he will react as if he felt a rain drop. This is Obama!
To: AB
Do you think it us unfair to ask Turkey to return Armenian property back to the Armenian heirs? Armenians live in the Diaspora today simply because they got forcefully removed from Western Armenia from 1860's to 1950. Most died horrible deaths. Some of us survived because God is on the side of the persecuted. We didn't choose to live out here...our ancestors lived in Western Armenia with our neighbours, the Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians etc. Just because Europeans kicked Ottomans out of their countries...did that give Ottamans the right to kick our ancestors out of our Western Armenia? Ofcourse not this is not logical!
Ottomans (predecessor of today's Turkish Republic) paid the price for invading Europe. They got kicked out and had to return the invaded lands. Look at the maps to see what the placee were called before Turkish invasions.
Consider this my dear participant. If I were to come and kick you out of your home and claim I now own it? Does this illegal act give me 'title' to your property? I am not sure this not so in Tureky. Yes, even if I deprive you, of your home for as long as 500 yrs., this does not mean I own it. Sooner than later I must return the property to the rightful owner! Armenians were on the land before Turks' invasions. Many of the other nations, Ottamans conquered, have had their property returned, long ago; why not the Armenians? And Assyrians etc. Are Armenians less human than Europeans?
Now the real question is this. Will Turkey return the forcefully acquired property back to the rightful owners? When?
We all have to do the right thing! Allah wants you to do the right thing! And you know this in your heart. Do you obey Allah?
The Supreme Ruler of the Universe will judge us all; and soon!
Point taken CDEFG.
Anyone want to discuss their ideas of what reconciliation/restitution could look like?
Gayane and CDEFG,
If to make me turn the cap key off is such a victory for you, I can grant it to you free of charge.
CDEFG,
I think you really have some problems in your head. What does using cap key to do with being "cynical to the extreme"?
And, to follow up on Garo's comments...why the hard court press on Armenia at this time? Let's all pay attention to the macro-game that's being played. The real goals are 1) to cut Armenia off from Iran (to Armenia's peril) and push Armenia into Turkey's orbit; 2) to return Karabagh to Azeri control to facilitate the passage of oil to Turkey and Israel and 3) force Armenia to submit to the Turkish approach on the genocide, which means 'silence', as a way to allow its entry into the EU. There is nothing in this program for Armenia, at least from what we can all see in the press. If anyone in Washington or Ankara wants Armenians to become more cooperative, they'd be smart to put something of value to us on the table as an incentive. But, since Armenia is tiny, has no resources and little power, they are resorting to bullying and strong-arm tactics to get their way. I just hope Sarkisyan and his govt are not just refusing to cooperate, but asking and demanding specific things that will benefit Armenia in the long run. Of course, short of invading Armenia, they are probably threatening him behind closed doors, and we all know what that means...a toppled govt, a coup or an assassination...all within reach of the CIA or its proxies...to get what they want. We have to wish Sarkisyan the best....he's in a very tough spot right now.
If this article was in Turkish, I'd say he is another republican claiming he loves his country and thinks only he knows the best for it. The fact is, Kemalism no longer represents democracy and modernity. I have met so many people who define themselves as Kemalists and who, with no shame, say out loud that every Armenian, Greek, Kurd and Jew living in this country should be killed. People described in this comment, for example, are typical Kemalists. And let me tell you this: If a Turkish government is to accept Armenian genocide, it won't be a Kemalist one.
While we all wait for the Armenian genocide resolution to be brought to a vote before the full U.S. House of Representatives, and while we wait for Obama to utter the G word on April 24, let us ask ourselves why Putin and Medvedev don't issue statements using the G word each April 24?
Why don't Putin and Medvedev criticize Obama for not recognizing the Armenia genocide?
Why doesn't Russia criticize Turkey for denying the Armenian genocide?
I will tell you why. Russia is Tatar and pro-Turkish. Russia is not concerned about Armenia. Russia is hypocritical. Russia is the same country that signed away Western Armenia to Turkey. Russia is the same country that gave Karabagh and Nakhichevan to the Azeris.
Russia is one of those countries that forced Serge Sargsian to sign the protocols.
We Armenians are deaf, dumb, and totally blind when it comes to Russia. But you can't tell Armenians that. Because they can't hear, speak, or see.
Dear Antoine and in extension to Levon,
There is no hatred in commets here-IF YOU MEAN OUR TRUE AND SINCERE COMMENTS RE OUR ADERSARIES THE TURCO-AZERIS.INDEED CALL IT H OR IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE ANY OTHER DENOMINATION FOR NEIGHBOURS9just two in the world) THAT THEY HATE US TO THEIR GUTTS...
WE DO NOT PER SAY HATE THEM AS PEOPLE, BUT THEIR FASCIST GOVERNEMTS THAT AS OF TODAY ,YES TODAY -WITNESS MEETING BETWEEN SERZH SARKISSIAN AND ERDOGAN...THERE IS NOT AGREEMENT ACIEVED.TURKS INSITS THAT WE FORGET AND FORGIVE///
HOW CAN WE EVER FORGET.FORGIVE /YES BUT THEY HAVE TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS AND ALSO MAKE AMENDSW.NO NOT AGHRI DAH-ARARAT AND ANI RUIS..BUT "blood money"FIRST OF ALL..
LAND IS ISSUE -I AHVE EXPLAINED ABOVE... KURDS ARE TO BE APPROACHED AND TACKLED FIRST-FOR THEY ARE THERE MAINLY 18 MILLLION STRONG-NEVER MIND THE DENIALSIT TURKS THAT UNTILL RECENTLY CALLED THEM"MOUNTAIN TURKS"..that lie was busted.........
therefore we all agree that culprit HAS TO CONFESS,BEFORE ANYTHING.
AS TO UNITY-THAT IS A FICTICIOUS WORD-YOUR WERE BOTH BROUGHT UP AND RECEIVED ANGLO SAXON EDUCATION AND CANNOT IMAGINE THAT IN FFRANCE-AN EXAMPLE- TERE ARE ETRME IDOLOGIES ALWAYS IN FRICTION WITH EA OTHER...BUT THE FRENCH BECOME ON FIST AGAINST OUTER ADFVERSARIES..
THAT MEANS THEY TOLERATE EA OTHER'S IDOLOGIES AND RESPECT.HOW CAN ONE WIPE OUT OF THE MIND-BRAINS OF A DETERMINED MAOIST OR COMMUNIST HIS BELIEF IN THAT IDEOLOGY-IMPOSSBLE BUT BEING OF SAME RACE-PEOPLE THEY CAN INDEED C O O P E R A T E MIAPANVIL...THAT IS THE WORD THAT WE SHOULD USE..
AS TO OUR PRESENT STATE OF AFFAIRS HARUT SASSOUNIAN-RESPECTED BY ALL,HE WISHES -AS WELL AS SELF A ND "haybacdban " IN FRANCE TO COME UP WITH A central council...what i have been advocating for 32 yrs now...ours was the first worldarmeian congress in paris with 380 particpants from near all community countries at that time the friction amongst armenian left and right so acute that they did not wish to HAVE A PRESBYTERIAN-PASTOR REVEREND J.KARNUZIAN AND CO. -OF CORSE US- TO SCCEED TPICAL ARMENIAN FACTIONALISM -IF YOU WS- EVEN TODAY OUR -POLITICAL PARTIES AND THEIR LENIENT CHURCHES DO NOT DO THAT.SME CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER THAT THE PROTAGONIST IN THE"4 0 DAYS OF MOUSA DAGH"...was a protestant not an apostolic clergy...so what? HE WAS A STOUT ARMENIAN...
YOU SEE SOME PEOPLE DO NOT REALIZE THAT THERE IS -ARE 2 MAJOR-ENORMOUS TRAITS IN THE ARMENIAN CHARACTER...
1. JEALOUSY-ENVY
2.NON-COOPERATIVENESS...
GET THESE ROOTED OUT AND THEY WILL COOPERATE...
BEST AND
HAMA HAIGAGANI SIRO,
G.P
Chairman Berman, thanks for your efforts, for addressing the issue of Genocides-thus too, working towards the ending of the cycle of Genocides on our planet. If a Turkey had been brought to justice in early 20th century none of the Genocides that followed shall have been; reparations paid, and Armenia a nation of advanced peoples whose participation in the civilized world shall have been known.
Sudan today, attempting to deny their Genocide of the Darfurian, is obviously emualting the Turks' denials of these nearly 100 years. And, why not? For at this time, Turks, the perpetrator of Genocides is coming off as 'winners' - the victims of the Genocides, the losers.
Too, humanity, morality, are losers. Sadly.
Manooshag
2015 is NOT good enough and neither is next month or next year. Passing the Armenian Genocide recognition bill by the US Congress next week along with a sincere written apology to our community on behalf of President Obama for America's tacit complicity in aiding and abetting genocide deniers is LONG OVERDUE and the least that can be done to reassert America's credibility against genocide and its denial.
Delay tactics, cowardly excuses, fear mongering, political theatrics and spineless promises by either party will no longer suffice in accumulating votes. Action will.
AB,
I don’t think that we would reduce ourselves to fighting with the Turks so you may consider making you turn the cap key off a victory. I think commentators here merely invited you to follow rules of written communication that you appear to be unaware of or disrespectful to. So keep your granting us a victory free of charge to yourself. And keep the change, too…
One may have problems in one’s head when he repeatedly continues making the same mistake despite the warnings. Just FYI: When you type in capital letters it is fine for emphasis, WE WON or THANK YOU, but the speed at which people read is 12% faster with both upper and lower case and reading in all capitals raises blood pressure in readers by 5%, so there is physiological evidence for typing in ALL CAPS BEING YELLING AND CYNICAL. For example (and for example only): “YOU RUDE SOB’. People take offence as when typing with capitals it is as though you are shouting. You can use capitals on some words when you want to emphasize them for e.g. “I would LOVE to go on vacation, I could really do with the break…”
Concerning reconciliation/restitution I would propose a somewhat radical and likely controversial approach which could be called the Urartu solution. Before describing such a solution I feel it necessary to explain my motivation which largely has to do with the Kurdish Question. Essentially, the Kurds now live in historical Western Armenia. They have had families and homes there now for at least three generations. What are to become of these people who, despite Kurdish participation against the Armenians in the Genocide, are now largely in support of the Armenian Cause? This may not be fare for us Armenians, but it is nevertheless the reality on the ground today.
The question naturally arises then, how can Armenians and Kurds live together on the same land? Now if you don't look at history too strictly (Kurds as Medes, Armenian tribes coming from Thrace, etc.), it turns out their was a solution for Armenians and Kurds on the same land some 2500 - 3000 years ago. It was the federated state known as Urartu. There the peoples of eastern Anatolia lived together in a prosperous state that could hold it's own even against one of the most powerful states at the time, the mighty Assyrian Empire. What about the possibility of Armenians and Kurds joining together in some kind of federated state, with states to the north of Lake Van being under Armenian regional governments and Kurds governing south of Lake Van. A central government would be constituted of both Armenians and Kurds. The country could even be named Urartu.
I must emphasize that as I am not a historian, there may be some serious problems in the Urartu approach. My apologies if this is the case. With that said, it is clear that the indigenous peoples of eastern Anatolia, i.e. the Armenians, the Kurds, the Assyrians, and the Pontic Greeks, have suffered for 1,000 years from the Turkish policy of Divide and Conquer. Perhaps now is the time for these indigenous peoples to unite and throw off the Turkish yoke, once and for all. My hunch is that if this were to happen, we Armenians could, more or less, tell the Turkish denialists to essentially 'Take a Hike', i.e. they can believe what they want about the Genocide. We don't care what they think.
Perhaps one caveat to all of this, is the issue of hidden Armenians, and even the possibility that much of the population in eastern Anatolia has some kind of Armenian ancestory. If that is the case then perhaps all that is needed is a genetic test of the peoples in the region. Wouldn't it be interesting, if most of the people in eastern Anatolia turned out to actually be Armenians.
Narek G.
What I have said in the past is this: people like you need to get over your irrational hate of Serj Sargsyan and your unhealthy obsessions about the genocide simply because it is blinding you to political reality and making you become an obstacle for Armenia today. I have also suggested that people like you need to make an effort to really understand nuances of geopolitics and diplomacy.
I don't want genocide recognition - if it does not come with money and land reparations. What Washington and Ankara want is an apology/recognition without consequences. The only way we can force turkey to return our lands, especially lands that will give us access to the Black Sea, is if we either take them in a major war or if we move close enough to power centers within Ankara and convince them. This will only happen when Armenia becomes a major political/military/economic player in the region. Instead of acting like pathetic victims in a corrupt place like Washington we should all be standing behind our president in support of our republic. There is also a theoretical nuance here: Turks would/should rather have a powerful Armenia on their east than a powerful Kurdistan (which is in the works currently by a team of CIA and Mossad agents). We need to find a way to convince them of this.
Anyway, I don't want to go on with this because I know that you and most of the readers here are not of the caliber that would understand what's being said. Just go on obsessing, crying and screaming about the genocide and see where it will get you...
PS: Please... don't even get me started about the diaspora... Other than a handful of respectable/patriotic Armenians in the diaspora - the vast majority is useless. The diaspora needs to put aside its petty hysteria and obsession based wishes and try to become an asset for the Armenian republic.
David,
An interesting proposition. I only have one objection re: ‘Armenian tribes coming from Thrace, etc.’ in the second para. of your comment. This clause uses a rather over-simplified account of the origin of the Armenian people. According to the Greek historian Herodotus, the Armenians had originally lived in Thrace from where they crossed to Phrygia in Asia Minor and had then gradually moved west of the Euphrates River to what became Armenia.
However, other historians indicate that from the ninth to the sixth centuries B.C., a large part of historical Armenia, called Ararat by its contemporary neighbors, comprised the Kingdom of Urartu. This Kingdom disintegrated during the middle of the sixth century whereupon the native tribes inhabiting the area, including the Armen and the Nairi groups, were unified and became part of the dominant Hayassa group. Their Indo-European language was imposed on the conquered Urartuans, who spoke a non-Aryan language. Thus did the Armenian nation take form, its people being the political, ethnic, and cultural successors to the Hurrians, pre-Hittites, Hayassas, Nayiris and Urartuans. This newly formed nation was called “Hai” after the name of the Hayassa tribal federation and the country “Hayastan.” The neighboring peoples called the Armenians “Armen” and their country "Armenia" after the Armens.
And of course, there is an Armenian version of the origins of the Armenian people, which was written between the fifth and eight centuries A.D., that describes the Armenian people as being descendants of Japeth, a son of Noah. After the Ark had landed on Mt. Ararat, Noah’s family settled first in Armenia and generations later moved south to the land of Babylon. The leader of the Armenians, Haik, a descendant of Japeth, unhappy with the tyranny and evil in Babylon, rebelled and decided to return to the land of the Ark. The country came to be known as “Hayastan” after Haik.
I guess, my point is that as with many ancient peoples, the origin of the Armenians contains elements of unresolved scholarly arguments. Therefore, we cannot unambiguously state that Armenian tribes came from Thrace.
Overall, like I said, an interesting proposition.
Oops, one more objection. And again re: the second para. You wrote: ‘…it turns out there was a solution for Armenians and Kurds on the same land some 2500-3000 years ago. It was the federated state known as Urartu. There the peoples of eastern Anatolia lived together in a prosperous state that could hold its own even against one of the most powerful states at the time, the mighty Assyrian Empire.’
David, 2500-3000 years ago there was no such a geographical toponym as ‘eastern Anatolia.’ The areas is historically known as Asia Minor or eastern Asia Minor, if you’re referring to its eastern part. Anatolia is a toponym that Turks are advancing to their advantage, as part of geographical distortion of historical facts in that the area was known under a different name and different civilizations inhabited it for millennia, long before the formation of the Ottoman Empire in the 14th century AD.
TO GARY M:
I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOUR IDEAS IN GENERAL:
-YES, I DO NOT THINK THAT IT IS UNFAIR TO ASK TO RETURN ARMENIAN PROPOERTIES TO THE HEIRS.
-YES, ARMENIANS WERE REMOVED BY FORCE, AND SUFFERED VERY MUCH.
-YES, KICKING SOMEBODY BY FORCE FROM HIS HOME AND CLAIM IT TO BE HIS OWN IS NOT RIGHT.
WHERE I DISAGREE WITH YOU IS IN HOPING THAT ONE DAY TURKEY WILL ALLOW ON THE CURRENT TURKISH TERRITORY TO THE CREATION OF AN ARMENIA.
IN THE COURSE OF HISTORY, EMPIRE/KINGDOM WERE BORN, CONQUERED AND SOME DISAPPEARED. ARMENIA WAS CONQUERED BY THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE BEFORE THE 15TH CENTURY. AS FROM THIS DATE IT BECAME TURKISH.
THE CURRENT BORDERS OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY ARE RECOGNIZED BY ALL COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD WITH THE EXCEPTION OF (TO MY KNOWLEDGE) ARMENIA. IN THE PROTOCOLS TO BE SIGNED MUTUALLY PRESIDENT SARKISYAN WILL ALSO RECOGNIZE THE BORDERS OF TURKEY.
I THINK THAT DISTINCTION HAS TO BE MADE BETWEEN RETURN OF PROPERTY AND CREATION OF A NEW ARMENIA.
WHOEVER WAS UNRIGHTFULLY EXPATRIATED FROM HIS HOME, HIS HOME SHOULD BE RETURNED WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY.
NOW REGARDING ALLAH TELLING ME TO DO THE RIGHT THING. NO, I DO WHAT JESUS CHRIST TELL ME IT IS RIGHT TO DO. MY MOTHER IS ARMENIAN AND MY FATHER IS LEBANESE. I AM A TURKISH CITIZEN WITH ARMENIAN AND LABENESE ORIGIN. I AM BOTH PROUD OF MY ORIGIN AND MY COUNTRY TURKEY.
FYG, MY MOTHER'S FAMILY IS ORIGINALLY FROM TARSUS. MY GRAND FATHER EMIGRATED TO LEBANON IN 1915 WHEN HE WAS 3 YEARS OLD. 2 GENERATIONS LATER MY MOTHER RETURNED TO TURKEY.
TO CDEFG,
AS YOU SO RIGHTFULLY POINTED OUT THE BEST WAY OF DEFEATING YOUR OPPONENT IS BY IGNORING HIM/HER.
WHY DON'T YOU FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE AND IGNORE ME?
Point taken CDEFG... I also agree that it is just waste of everyone's time to respond to Karekin.. I have asked him several times if he is directing his peaceful, loving, democratic and "lets hold hands and sing coombaya" approach to Turks on their sites.. However, did not get any response from him in regards to this......
My dear CDEFG, i agree with you 100%.. I have to say, Turks, especially the ones who post their comments on these sites, seem to have a very slow reaction to directions and suggestions... I have had few encounters with few already.. Including Ahmet who had been misspelling my name over and over.. One would think they are doing it on purpose.. Actually I know in his case he was doing it on purpose... But I already expressed my feelings about those Turks who deliberately doing things to raise my blood pressure up... they know where they will end up...
AB,
I told you that writing in CAPS means you are yelling at someone... just like my comrad CDEFG stated in a very very detailed manner about the reasoning behind the caps (this was the second or third time I noticed someone telling you to turn your caps off), I am glad to see that you finally got it through your messed up head that writing is an expression and also a tool people use to share thoughts, comments, ect...In order to portray what you want to say in an effective way, you need to know how to write and write it in the write way..... Glad to see that you took the advice... however, if you think by doing so you are granting us a victory with free of charge, you are absolutely arrogant and ignorant.. Instead of calling CDEFG someone with a problem, I would think twice about yourself.. To be honest with you, with what you are state in your comments and your views on the Armenian question truly speaks volume about your state of mind and it is not a good state.. if you ask me plus millions who are reading these comments...
I would disagree that I am dreaming about my ancestral lands being returned to its lawful owner.. Please read Gary M's comment over and over and over again until it gets stuck in your brain.. He gives you a great comparison and reason to your comment about our lands....Let me repeat myself: Those lands ARE NOT YOURS TO CLAIM... the caps were meant to emphasize the words... just in case you are confused...
Boyajian and Janine.. Excellent Comment... As always....
Dr. Deranian... an interesting thought... may need to tell us more about this.. I have not really thought about your suggestion but from what I have read, you may have something there.. need to revisit that again...Please keep us posted about your movie production.. I know I will be the first to buy the tickets to come and see it..:)
Sylva jan... I am honored to read your poems... thank you so much for the most current poem and your opinion of me.. Truly appreciate it.. and you are absolutely right.. Justice will prevail...
God Bless you all...
Thanks to David for helping to redirect this discussion on a more positive and creative path.
GAYANE,
YOU REALLY ARE CONFUSED IN YOUR HEAD.
I AM NOT CLAIMING ANYTHING FROM YOU. I SUGGEST YOU GO TO A BOOKSTORE AND BUY AN ATLAS. PLEASE FIND THE PAGE SHOWING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY. LOOK AT ANATOLIA AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT IS INCLUDED IN THE BORDERS OF TURKEY AND WHAT IS NOT.
YOU CAN BUY THE SAME ATLAS FROM THE U.S., SWEDEN OR FRANCE. YOU WILL SEE THE SAME BORDERS.
AFTER THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHO IS CLAIMING WHAT FROM WHOM.
I hope our boys from Yerevan got a tongue lashing...
Just because Sarkisian paid tribute to the late President Wilson and got lucky in calling Erdogan's bluff doesn't mean he or his government are off the hook for signing those defeatists protocols. The fact remains that if Erdogan went ahead and ratified the protocols our beloved Sarkisian was going to follow suit as well.
Point being, the RA under President Sarkisian signed a set of insulting protocols that allowed for the questioning of our irrefutable history and the relinquishing of our Western Armenian lands surreptitiously behind all our backs.
Erdogan didn't/won't ratify this set of protocols. Will Erdogan ratify the next set of protocols devised by the geniuses in Yerevan? Will Sarkisian make the same mistakes assuming he is in power in the future? How will astute political parties and their members in Armenia and the Diaspora ensure Yerevan doesn't relinquish anymore of our rights without truth and justice being at the core of any set of protocols with Turkey?
Serious questions for serious party members to ponder over very carefully. NOW is the time to act NOT when the next delegation of American and European bureaucrats escort Armenian officials to Zurich to sign our rights away!!!!!!
Hi AB,
Interesting to have your input/perspective on this discussion. Hope you continue to share and also hope you will be open-minded when considering what is right or fair between Armenians and the Republic of Turkey.
With all due respect to you, are you sure your grandfather emigrated to Lebanon in 1915 or was he part of a forced deportation? If not deported, did his family flee out of fear or to avoid a worse fate? What do you know about why they left and what and who they left behind?
You say you are proud of your country. What is your opinion of Article 301? What is your opinion of your government's policy of denial and minimization of its crimes against your ancestors? How do you come to terms with this? Just curious.
If I don't hear President Obama use the "G" word on April 24, 2010, I am going to contribute a large portion of my savings to Danny Tarkanian's campaign. He can kiss Mr. Hary Ried's political carreer good bye. And, I challenge all diasporans to do the same.
David,
At the core of international negotiations and processes, interests, etc., that ‘anachronistic’ Diasporan organizations and members do not understand en masse, and only you appear to understand, lies the national interest, i.e. the interest of a state, whose government’s actions, circumstances, and decisions, including the ones in the area of foreign policy, are regarded as benefiting a nation. But there’s a trap in international negotiations, and it lies in misunderstanding the national interest and culture of a negotiating country. Whilst one country may emphasize politeness and integrity, another might use deception and coercive methods as a norm of negotiations. Many observers believe that, given the atmosphere of secrecy in which protocols were drafted; introduction of outcome to the general public hastily and a posteriori; disregard for negative public opinion both in Armenia and the Diaspora that followed; uncharacteristic form, language, and length of the documents; dubious timing and questionable need for such a measure for Armenia at this juncture; controversial and potentially hazardous provisions that allowed for multiple, at times conflicting, interpretations; and atypically large number of negotiating parties involved, Armenia’s leadership has been forced to fall into such a trap, albeit consciously. No one argues the truism that Armenia is a real country with responsibilities far beyond the ‘parochial’ perceptions of the Diaspora. One would argue, though, that dubbing the campaign of international recognition of the genocide and associated perceptions of the Diaspora as ‘parochial’ are disputable at best. Many people in the real country of Armenia would dub their real leaders’ perceptions of governance that’s based on nepotism, dilettantism, and clan system as parochial. It’s all relative. But Armenia is also a real country with obligations, most important being the one that the government must be accountable to the people in natters of national concern. Observers doubt that any research has been done to estimate the possible consequences that the protocols might have on the people. Scores of experts agree that in their present form the protocols may have disastrous economic, demographic, national security, and ideological consequences on Armenia. Therefore, the action, circumstance, and decision taken with regard to the protocols both in terms of the process and lack of impact analysis, cannot be regarded as benefiting Armenia’s national interest. I hope this answers your inquiries as to why I think items in the protocols were unwisely drafted and potentially unsafe for Armenians.
Besides, if you think that ‘anachronistic diasporan organizations and members… have parochial perceptions, pettiness,’ and the like, then I’m afraid you contradict yourself in that ‘Sargsian was able to take advantage of Ankara’s lack of resolve: Chatham House speech, various warnings to Turkey, and his Der Zor speech, as examples.’ Wait, didn’t Serge use talking points and arguments in those speeches that largely reflect on ‘anachronism, parochial perceptions, and pettiness’ that you’ve addressed to the Diaspora? Does usage of these arguments make, or, reinstate, I’d better say, Serge as being anachronistic, parochial and petty, too? And I hope you appreciate the difference between stating something verbally in a capacity of president and putting signature in writing on an official document. The magnitude of reverberation from an official signature can be incomparably detrimental for a country.
Both reasons for your analysis, i.e. why protocols exist now and in the form they do, have been heavily debated in these pages, and I’d like to refrain to reiterate them, especially as I sense that readers here do have at least some background to understand these documents. In fact, many of them justifiably go beyond what’s written in black-and-white and into reading the invisible text, because these protocols do not merely replicate routine memorandums on establishing diplomatic relations between countries. Given the ongoing campaign of denial and animosity on the part of the Turks these documents ought to be viewed in the broader geopolitical context, in the context of power and race politics, historical grievances and apprehensions, legal claims, territorial uncertainties, as well as potentially dangerous consequences of economic and geostrategic interests that power centers advance using small countries like Armenia as tools. ‘In Response to David Davidian’s Analysis’ by Mathew Der Manualian, http://www.keghart.com/content/response-davidian, and ‘The Final Stage of Genocide: Consolidation’ by Henry Theriault, http://armenianweekly.com/2009/10/11/theriault-the-final-stage-of-genocide-consolidation/, contain, perhaps, the most convincing counterarguments.
I don’t know, maybe you read a different decision of the Armenian Constitutional Court, but it clearly states that the Court decides that ‘Protocols are in conformity with the Constitution of the Republic of Armenia’ (http://www.concourt.am/english/decisions/common/pdf/850.pdf), that is, protocols do not contradict the Armenian constitution. Besides, if we cannot be sure that ‘the sub-commission on the historical dimension…, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archive to define existing problems’, is not aimed at dumping of genocide recognition’ just as we cannot be sure of the opposite, then are we in agreement that at least this provision (and I’d add others, too) is controversial and may be interpreted differently by the signatories? Then, inevitably, a hardball question follows: can controversial and dubious at best, provisions represent a basis for a policy analysis?
Further, I never stated that international documents need to be simplistic to be legitimate. I said: ‘for these protocols to be credible and risk-free they should have contained a single clause.’ That is, be free of understatements, allusions of pre-conditions, and other items that similar Memorandums of Understanding, as a norm, do not contain. Such memorandums, whether you consider them simplistic or not, basically state the following:
Hopeful of promoting enhanced relations between their peoples in economic, cultural and other fields, affirming their shared view of the importance of the Helsinki Final Act Principles and other CSCE commitments, both governments have agreed to conduct their diplomatic and consular relations in accordance with the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic and Consular Relations, and open the common border.
By claiming that ‘had Serge made [his speeches] with no protocols in sight, I’d wholeheartedly welcome such verbal proclamations of a president, who is, nonetheless, unelected and illegitimate,’ I meant not only my dislike of the conditions under which Sargsian or any previous president was brought to power, but most importantly how he handled the protocol process. I don’t really care if it’s made me partisan and partial, because I believe that it is Serge’s illegitimacy that played a crucial role in succumbing to the external pressure. This partly answers your rhetorical point as to what would a president of Armenia, other than Serge, do. Well, most of all one wouldn’t want to be an unelected and, thus, unpopular president. But if legitimate, I think he’d exercise his right and obligation to be accountable to his voters on matters of utmost national importance, such as signing of protocols with the enemy-state. An address to the nation comes to one’s mind, in which stealthy indication regarding the outside pressure and a plea for support could be made. A similar appeal to the Diaspora, as descendents of millions of expelled or barely survived Ottoman Armenians, might be in order in an attempt to consolidate their political capital. A national referendum, given the magnitude and vital importance of the issue, could be another step. If none of those worked in the wake of mounting external pressure, one would find the courage and resign with dignity. People like you may consider this a failure, but I’d rather stick to my guns and fail myself rather than fail people who entrusted themselves to me.
To AB:
Well...we never know...you and I may be related? My grandparents were from Kayseri.
Since most of the rightful title holders of the propreties in Western Armenia have been killed and survivors are mostly deceased now, selectively returning confiscated property is not realistic. You know this is difficult if not impossible?
Why not honour President Wilson's Armenia borders, which he thought fair and realistic, after WW1. The people who now live there need not necessarily move out.
I believe Turkey is a beautiful place. I understand why you are proud of your country. I have never been there but the Internet is a valuable instrument for us to travel the world with just a few clicks. Lebanon is also a beautiful place and I have been there a few times.
If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, then you know that HE definitely instructs us all to 'do the right thing'. Are you able to discuss with fellow Turks what the right thing is? Only when Turkish laws allow true freedom of speech will Turkey and the people come out of emotional bondage & fear!
I bet if they used the same tone about the Jewish
Holocaust they would have been skinned alive by now. they would of lost their job next day
Basically,
what they're saying is what the denialist Turks are also
saying, which is: The events happened long ago, who
cares.
In other words, it's perfectly ok to commit atrocities as
long as you keep denying it and sweep it under the
carpet for long enough to be then considered as "old"
events.
Pathetic morons.
I am with you Dr. Hovsepian, I am with you most certainly. Most of us here in Diaspora would love if Sarkisian rescinded Armenia's signature from the protocol documents. Then we can sleep better.
G.P.
Your a man of a thousand words.
your first and second trait are definitely correct .
I will add one more.
lack of knowledge and lacking knowledge.
Towards this organisations that accept responsibility's, and pass some of those responsabilities to so called prominent people that nor have the time nor knowledge .
and guess how suffers.
Humans with mature brain cells
Throwing Armenian Humans’
Once again… elsewhere.
I don't know how long
Who slayed innocents ,now wants
The rest, to hurl them away.
I don’t know how long throwers can live.
Let everyone remember
That 'the sigh' is every once end
That is something should be respected
And through it the butchers can see their end.
During ‘Final Sigh’ time arrived to pray for God.
Begging mighty to livelonger on this earth
for more time to slay.
Yes, No time left to slay more!
The hell doors are open, calling them.
To come and join others
Who slayed and left
Without any shame, without any regret.
Hello again Armine,
-
I just want to comment on your last point about the effects on the Armenian economy if the borders are opened. It’s not the first time have heard about this alleged detrimental effect of opening the border on the economy. I just can’t believe that you and others would rather keep the border closed and Armenians living in some cocoon surreal economy. There is no future in that. Here in Canada when our GST (General Sales Tax) was introduced 20 years ago many predicted doom and gloom. Now everyone acknowledges the GST was the best thing that happened to the Canadian economy. Now in BC and Ontario, a new Harmonized tax is going to be introduced in July and the naysayers are at it again. And they are wrong again.
-
Sure, there will be some pain during the initial adjustment period but Armenians will overcome it and end up prospering just like they have everywhere else in the world. They need markets and easy access for their goods. As long as they have a level playing field, they will succeed. We are a very resilient and resourceful people. I’ll bet on the people of Armenia anytime. What is your alternative? For them to continue to live on handouts from relatives in Glendale? C’mon! You know, its interesting that those against the Protocols call them the “defeatist protocols” Actually, they are the one’s that are the real “defeatists”.
Glenn Beck is being a typical pundit. Obama was supposed to make us all liked, and this resolution refutes that. If you read what he's saying, he's not actually saying it was the WRONG thing to do, just that he doesn't see the purpose of it. Personally, I do support the resolution. But it makes our relations with Turkey a lot worse perhaps.
Armenia is amazing though, your history goes back all the way to before the Roman empire. Armenians also fought off the Arabs (Muslims) for crucial years, they eventually lost, but if it hadn't been for Armenia the Arabs could have rushed Byzantium even more quickly (which they almost took in 670 as it is). Also the Armenians harried the Ottoman supply lines during their abortive sieges of Constantinople. If the Armenians hadn't have been there, then all of Europe would have been open to Muslims 800 years earlier, there'd have been no renaissance and we Europeans might all still be living as Dhimmis in a 9th century style caliphate. So the western world owes a lot to Armenia.
David brings up an interesting prosposition that might sound good, but is the stuff of fantasy. I'm not sure he realizes that that vast majority of Turkey's Kurds (and other ethnicities, too), live in eastern Turkey, probably on the order of 10 - 12 million people. Even if every Armenian on the planet moved there, which is highly unlikely, they'd still be outnumbered 2 - 1. Plus, didn't some Armenians already go down the road of attempting to link up w/ others to bring down Turkey, with disasterous results before? We all know the sad outcome of that venture. And, let's not forget the 7 million Azeris on the other side, who have oil and now, an American funded and supplied military. While all of these discussions can be interesting, when you enter the realm of actual possibilities, many if not most, fall off the table rather quickly. Better to focus on improving what we have (like Armenia and curbing emigration), and not fantasize on something so remote that it will never see the light of day.
Avetis,
You’re free to have your own vision of how the genocide recognition process may work, i.e. with or without money or land reparations, or in an ‘one step after another’ fashion. But sticking to your vision doesn’t necessarily mean you can insult others as being ‘obsessed’ with the recognition process. Didn’t it occur to you that others may derogate you, too, as being ‘obsessed’ with the idea of recognition that comes with money and land reparations in one package? Or, even worse, ridicule you for your idea of Armenia going to major war with Turkey with population ratio 2.5 mln versus 73 mln, GDP of $11.9 bln versus $794 bln, and armed forces of 50,000 versus 1,357,000? Does going to major war under such circumstances, which will hardly change any time soon, make you think you ‘understand nuances of geopolitics and diplomacy’? Ridiculous…
I agree with you that whatever version of recognition one might support this will only happen when Armenia becomes a major political/military/economic player in the region. However, I believe Armenia can become such a player when it starts to implement democracy-building measures, build viable economic infrastructures, get rid of nepotism and wide-spread governmental corruption, allow for statesmen not semi-literate strongmen to rule the country, and, most importantly abolish the shameless practice of having one illegitimate president after another, one notorious clan system after another. Are you of the caliber to understand this or I need to repeat this universal truism?
PS: There are many respectable and patriotic Armenians in the Diaspora, not just a handful. As for the majority, well, the majority in any society may be considered ineffectual. For example, the majority of your government in Armenia is useless, and a few individuals may call Armenia’s president ‘our president,’ because it is exactly the majority of people that never elected him. But you may go on and consider him as your president together with the handful of supporters, and let’s see where it will get you…
Hye,
When wars are fought, won and lost, the losers lose their lands and more,
When wars are fought, won and lost, the 'winners' take that lands they have 'won'
But yet, when a nation is decimated, raped, robbed as has happened to so many of the nations of the world since the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation,
Genocides - perpetrated against unarmed peoples, who have not been able to fight for their own freedom, the perpetrators are the 'winners'...
Hence, the nations of the world, watching these Genocides (as in Darfur now for these nearly seven/eight years) are guilty of the crime of Genocides too.
The cycle of Genocides - ignored - is a crime against ALL humanity - the killings (and worse) by any perpetrator, whether a by a foe or an 'ally'!
Thus, Ottoman Turks and all their misdirected leaderships have been lying, to their own citizens, lying to the world, and even lying to themselves!
When shall the leaderships of the civlized nations of our world proceed together to face this 'evil' disease brought down upon all humanity? For, if the Turks, whose 'trials' of Genocide began in the 19th century and culminated with the
events of the 20th century (still today, in the 21st century - in Darfur) can and do 'get away with murders' and more) ...
Too, now a Sudan takes the stance that Sudan never committed a Genocide against the Darfurians - and why not? They are emulating the obvious, their model, the nearly 100 years of the the Turkish denials of their guilt of murdering and more the ancient and civilized nation of Armenia.
Which leaderships in our world shall have the 'guts' to oppose a Turkey and all the future despots who shal surely step up and perpetrate the next Genocide - Kurds? Next?
Crimes are not 'allowed' in our civilization, as nations find and incarcerate these criminals...
Sadly, civilization as yet is unable to face and bring to justice those who have been the perpetrators of Genocides... Perhaps we should spell out the vile crimes these 'guilty' have performed before and after their slaughters, rapes, etc. to explicitly list all the inhumane and mentally deranged acts performed on the helpless victims - leaving the Survivors with these memories for the rest of their lives - and their need to pass on to there descendants, the horrors of Genocide!
Manooshag
Karekin -- Did you apologize for insulting Jesus Christ?
Karekin;
In other discussion you insulted Jesus. Have you apologized to the readers for your dirty words?
K
Boys from Yerevan will not only sign protocols but sell their souls to devil to cling to power and line their pockets...
I am an outsider, my best friend is Armenian. I make my comments in a wish to highlight to you all, an outsiders view expressed with the best of intentions towards your cause.
I quote from a recent communiqué
"Rather than employ the Armenian term for the Armenian Genocide - Metz Yeghern - we urge President Obama in his April 24 statement to use the English term, and to be true to his words and promises in developing U.S.-Armenia ties."
Last year I heard President Obama's speech and I was overjoyed that by using the Armenian word for the genocide he had fulfilled his promise. I was shocked to see that rather than take this as a victory, Armenian's chose to take it as a defeat and rather than praise Obama for having recognised the genocide you chose to claim he had broken his promise by using the Armenian word for genocide rather than the English word.
You have effectively turned victory into defeat and snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory as well as alienate those who were attempting to help you by accusing them of breaking their promise ! What senseless tactics.
It would have been far better for your cause and far more effective to have praised Obama for having kept his word and for having chosen to use the Armenian word for genocide in recognition of what the Ottoman Empire had inflicted on you ancestors and thereby make his support all the more poignant. Thereby snatching victory from the jaws of victory and boosting the image of those who have helped you rather than accusing them unjustly, in my opinion, of reneging on a promise. Even if you believed that he should have used the English word genocide and had broken his promise by using the Armenian word for genocide it would have been far better for your cause to have followed the victory line.
I repeat I have every sympathy for your cause and wish it to succeed but fear you are badly led when I see defeat snatched from the Jaws of victory.
Hi Boyajian,
Yes I will continue to share my ideas. In my opinion there are going to be some very important changes in the very near future in the Armeno-Turkish relations.
And it will be interesting to see this from all perspectives.
Regarding my grandfather, "emigrated" is may be not the right word. He escaped on a ship to Cyprus and stayed sometimes there. And from there they went to make their lives in Lebanon.
My great grandfather was one of the Aga of Tarsus -Giragos Aga-, he was in fact said to be one of the biggest landowner there. They started their life in Lebanon from scratch.
Regarding article 301 of the Turkish constitution I think it is in general misunderstood. The law in itself is not clear and therefore subject to interpretations. The law states that distinction has to be made between critics and insults. Basically, I can criticize the Republique of Turkey but I cannot insult it. There have discussion regarding Orhan Pamuk and the article 301. Orhan Pamuk was never condemned with insulting Turkey. All those writers and thinkers which are very often associated with article 301 were never condemned.
I think I have replied to your questions.
AB - It doesn't matter to me who your parents or grandparents are, would you PLEASE stop shouting?!
I fully agree with Ferhat. He is just a selfish guy who does not care about being an Armenian. Thus, why should we care about him? I think we are just wasting time and space on someone who can be just anyone!
David, an interesting scenario. I disagree with others who claim it is merely the stuff of fantasy. In fact, I would say that the Kurdish reality has evolved to such a degree that now there is an entirely different possibility of relation between Kurds and Armenians than that which existed at the time of the genocide. It is, at any rate, something to consider -- including questions of true ancestry, which I think are relevant to the peoples of the region.
I will consider it further. But it also raises up some other interesting questions. Last night I attended a talk in which Michael Bobelian, former Ambassador John Evans, and Aram Hamparian were speaking. The remarks I heard there (and questions from some Turks in the audience), as well as discussion raised here has sort of piqued my interest in certain directions.
As you all know I'm sure, at the time of the genocide there were different political movements afoot within the Armenian community, in Turkey as a whole, and around all the Balkans. There were movements among Armenians in hope to be united with progressive Turks for a constitution that would establish a democratic republic and include the guarantee of rights of minorities. Of course, we know what happened to such hopes.
But the world has evolved. "Human rights" is not merely a declaration of the West any longer, but the stuff of worldwide dialogue and world courts. Turkey, however, has a long way to catch up with this basic common assumption about human rights as exemplified in International Law (such as the laws that protect the right of civilians in warfare and the genocide convention). The remarks of the Turks who attended last night's symposium brought this forward for me in ways that no one else has. They clearly expressed the idea that life in this world is about the stuff of empires: who takes what. Territory and land don't "belong" to anybody -- it is there for the power of the strongest to grab or not. The distorted picture presented from their history books (one person was talking about how they are taught about the Greek islands) really exemplified this way of thinking to a great degree. (I grant you, the speaker may not have expressed himself well.) We can understand, from their history, why this mentality exists. But it is not really compatible with a set of values of human rights laws and international law governing conduct in times of war. I am willing to accept that in Turkey people look perhaps at the foreign policies of the US and see hypocrisy in various forms. I personally, as a grateful citizen of the US, do not doubt this. Fortunately, we also have enough of a democracy so that we voice our opinions here as well on this subject, in many ways.
But it all raises the question of a fundamental agreement on what human rights are in the first place. Do people have a right to their culture and historical homeland? To be protected from the power of the strongest from ethnic cleansing and genocide? Is life really just about a free-for-all and domination of the strongest? What role does culture play? Civilization as a gift to the world? What about the great monuments of creativity, art, architecture, music, etc. that are swept away in the horror of war as the only arbiter of who gets what? Until we have an agreement on these basic concepts, where does dialogue begin? I believe this is the crux of the problems that Turkey has with the EC, and the rest trail. But there is still not even agreement on this concept. Article 301a puts a lie to the idea that constitutional considerations are somehow compatible with the EC and by extension these concepts of human rights.
And as we have discussed our Christian religion, to what does it respond when we talk only of life as part of the power of the strongest? This indeed, is a Christian struggle. Far be it from me to suggest that in the name of expediency and empire all people who call themselves Christian have held fast in their struggle to these beliefs. But Armenians as a small people really have never claimed power only as the right to victory. It makes us think. We were persecuted with other minorities for our mutual faith. It has to have something to do with the values we espouse in the world -- and that is indeed tied to all concept of human rights and international regulation of the behavior of the powerful.
I read an interesting story that I'm not sure was accurate, but I tend to believe it reflects true sentiments. I read that the Kurdish mayor of Diyarbakir made a speech asking the Armenians to return, to make the land once again prosper as it did. I find these words plausible, and the maturity of understanding in this man's mind given the events of history also plausible. We have but to compare the before and after scenarios in the Armenian homelands to know the wisdom of the concept. And that is something that Turkey lacks. The "greatness" of the Ottoman Empire was to a very large extent the product of its productive minorities and their capabilities.
Something to think about.
Avetis, the influx of Turkish goods is already a reality. The testing ground of non-protetectionist economic policy at Sadakhlo proved that Turkish goods, even with the added expense of crossing multiple borders, will overwhelm light industry, which is the only seedling option Armenia has that doesn't requie huge investment, exploits the natural and "aranrchic" entrepeneurial spirit of Armenians, and produces a resilient and diversified economy that is, as Italy has shown as well, almost recession proof in character. Alas, due to the triple pronged attacks of the debilitating corruption, energy blockade, and influx of cheap goods (not to mention the mass exodus of highly skilled labor), had prevented Armenia from building this infrastructure. Now we want to pour the economy of a known belligerent in all facets with hardly any protectionist provisions. It's a recipe for disaster, particularly for a sector I didn't mention; agriculture, whose produce quality has already dwindled with the (through the USAid) Monsanto-ization of its seed and crop species (i.e. the aromatic produce is becoming the thing of the past). Talk to real economists about this.
Turks and the world can play the delay game of the recognition of Genocide for 2015, 3015 or 4015, I don't care about that. But they must not delay the return of our lands any other minute, and they should not delay any reparation any other second. The return of all lands up to the Wilsonian map including parts of Cilicia would be a start to sit-down around negotiation tables.
Allowing tourists to visit few Armenian site is not enough, the entire land must be returned without any further delays.
After that whether they want to recognize the Genocide or go to Mecca and confess their sins does not interest me at all.
We've been in this trap of the G-word for over 60 years now with absolutely no results.
Dear Boyajian,
To the last question of your post; I think sooner or later mistakes committed will be recognized. And it is very close!
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
Boghos Nubar and the Kurdish leadership agreed that should the allies oversee the boundary settlement after the end of WWI, both peoples would see their own nation.
In Armenia today, what Kurds that live there don't necessarily get the same reespect as the other citizens of Armenia. A big, big mistake.
First part of this post (in brief) is in response to Antoine.I do acknowledge (grudgingly)rather with sadness that those people you mention as prominent-ARE EITHER SELF ELECTED-BY FORCE OF FUNDS,or friends-who also benefit with voting to such people...I hope you understand.Ara Baliozian in a sortned mode called them BBB's,meaning bishops Benefactors bosses!!!
Granted some of these( rarely) may have some "knowledge" ..but majority are as BBB's...THAT IS WHY I STUDIED HARD TO COME UP WITH "A New Concept of Electoral System and Governance'(this , title of my 3 page "paper' wich consequently was published in USAArmenia weekly isome 5 yrs ago and then to make sure that no "savvy" compatriot making it his/her Concept-usally these copiers eter some changes in doing so-Thence, I had it registered a "intellectual property in Washington D.C. and last summer at similar in Armenia.
Now this part of my post is to Dweck-
Wording "etz Yeghern' was first pronounced by a non-Armenian ....A Pope(previous one) when invited to Yerevan few yrs ago..IT DOES NOT IMPLY G E N O C I D E -true translation of it is "Catastrophy",it could be an earthquake, a Tsunami a Volcano erruption ad similar.IT IS NOT A LEGAL DESCRIPTION OF THE word 'TSEGHASBANUTYUN" meaing in English..."Race killings"...do you follow?
However, if some (ignorant )Armenians hastened to scold Mr, Obama, without -at the VERY LEAST-GIVING HIM MY ABOVE EXACT DEFINITIONS..
THEY OUGHT TO BE EXCUSED BY YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK FOR MORE EXPLANATIONS.
BUT PRIOR TO THAT BE IT KNOWN TO YOU THAT NOW WE ARE ACTUALLY CONTEPLATING TO DRIVE HOME OUR OBJECTIVE OF CONDEMNING THE CULPRIT GENOCIDE STATE (HEIRS) NOT JUST FOR HEARING PRESIDENT OF U.S. OR ANY OTHER PRESIDENT JUST PRONOUNCE IT...
BUT WE ARE AFTER COMPENSATIONS...LIKE GETTING A CERTAIN % OF THE OIL PIPELINE TRANSIT DUTIES BEING PAID BY ANGLO-AMERICAN OIL COMPANIES TO GREAT TURKEY,WHO WELCOMES THAT EASY MONEY..BUT DOES NOT U.S. TROOPS CROSS THEIR COUNTRY TO ACCESS I R A Q ...
AND OTHER 11 SUCH COUNTS FOR THEIR DEEGING WITH "ALLIES"..
TIME WILL COME WHEN THE GOVERNEMETS OF THOSE OIL COMPAMNIES WILL-HOPEFULLY- PRESS SAID COMPAMNIES TODO S.SINCE IN A WAY THOSE GOV.MENTS ARE A BIT INVOLVED IN NOT LETTING SAID PIPELINE GO THROUGH A R M E N I A.
MAY ASK THEM WHY?HAVE ARMEIANS EVER BEEN ON THE OTHER SIDE,WHEN IN WWI AND WWII THE Y FOUGHT ALONGSIDE THE BRITISH,AMERICAN,RUSSIAN AND FRENCH AGAINST THE AXIS POWERS(TURKEY, ALWAYS ON THAT SIDE???????
I HIMBLY ASK YOU TO STUDY THESE FACTS...
Janine,
I didn't mean to yell or shout at you. Sorry if I have offended you.
GAYANE, CDEFG,
I REALLY MEANT TO SHOUT AT YOU. YOU ARE REALLY ANNOYING ME WITH YOUR IDEAS AND FANATISM. PLEASE TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE AND IGNORE ME.
Dear Laslie,
"Raphael Lemkin studied the Armenian Genocide in depth" and coined the word of Genocide...Obama by not using proper word of Genocide, marked the politicization of the truth of "Armenian Genocide".
One more comment: the ideas I hear attacking the concept of genocide from the Turkish side are really infantile. "Were there gas chambers?" etc. There is a basic lack of concept as to what exactly constitutes the definition of genocide.
One Turkish speaker last night claimed 2 million Iraqi deaths happened so far in the Iraq War. His conclusion? Doesn't that mean the US has committed genocide in Iraq since Armenians only number 1.5 million dead? Where did the 1.5 million statistic come from? (he said, "Oh they are both estimates" with a smile). I was disappointed that none of the speakers pointed out the recent Turkish publication of census material from the years surrounding the genocide that proves this figure right (from papers held by family members descended of those in power at the time and never before made public). "A Shameful Act" indeed; at least they understood it.
As far as "condemnation" under Article 301 is concerned, Orhan Pamuk was charged but the charges were dropped after a world protest for this Nobel Prize winner. But can he live in Turkey in peace? No, he cannot. Article 301 is used to harass him, just as it was used over and over again to harass and threaten Hrant Dink, and led to his assassination. It really bothers me to hear this kind of nonsense from Armenians in Turkey that uses some form of obfuscation to somehow make it all seem okay. It smacks for me of collaborationist behavior. There is no other way for me to see it. I don't have to apologize for these things in order to live in peace, so maybe I am fortunate. The truth is that this is used to suppress even notions of minorities - Dink was condemned because he wrote an article saying that Kemal had an Armenian daughter who was a pilot, shattering this arrogant mentality of "Turks only." That led to his problems. Article 301 allows such idiocy and tragedy to prevail. It is racist. Anything can be construed an insult and be used to suppress identity of minorities. It is used to suppress Turks who speak out on these issues, regardless of which profession they hold: journalists, writers, historians. Neither can Taner Akcam live freely in his own country without fear.
may I add that because of Article 301 Turkish people posting here from Turkey who agree that there was a genocide *cannot* say so without fear of persecution???
Thanks AB. So do you agree with how Article 301a is used in your country? Do you believe there is a need for such a law in a democratic society? And what of Hrant Dink. What did you think when you saw what happened to him? Did you think he brought it on himself?
When your family returned to Turkey, were they able to regain any of the lands owned by your great-grandfather? Do you know what happened to your family that never escaped on the ship in 1915. Of course, if your grandfather had not left Turkey and eventually gone to Lebanon, then you probably would not be here today, so these questions can't be black and white for you. I just wonder how the average Armenian living in Turkey today makes sense of living among the denialists. Do you think you too minimize and deny what happened in order to cope?
Of the many ideas that circulate regarding reconciliation with Turkey the one I find easiest to agree with is the notion that Turkey owes the state of Armenia monetary restitution for all the human, intellectual and creative resources destroyed in the genocide, as well as for the land resources usurped from their rightful owners. Can you imagine how many Armenians would be living in the provinces today had they not been murdered or starved to death? Can you imagine the flourishing cities, the restored churches filled with worshipers and the art and literary contributions to the world? This was stolen from us. How do Armenians in Turkey see this? Can you imagine a cooperation of Turkish Armenians and Diasporan Armenians working together to influence the Turkish government to make restitution for these losses? Hypothetical question. Just wondering...
to Gary M,
I do not have a clear cut reply to give you. In my view the starting point is the beginning of billateral talks which have started with the protocols between Turkey and Armenia.
Return to Wilsonian border is something which will not happen. Wilsonian border were recognized in the Traite de Sevres which was 3 years later annuled and replaced with Lausanne treaty (signatories of Sevres treaty all signed the Lausanne treaty). As you may now, once Ottoman Empire lost do WW1 together with Germany, it was forced to sign the Sevre treaty. In fact the Sevre treaty was the dismanteling of Ottoman Empire and its sharing among UK, France, Italy, Greeece and Armenia. It was immediately followed with the independence war resulting in the expulsion of the occupying forces and the signing of Lausanne treaty recognizing Turkey with its current border.
To your question on wether these matters are discussed openly. Yes, it is discussed openly. And there are different opinions as you can imagine, some would say it is pure fabrication some would say it is atrocities of war, some others have different opinions. This is why I often defended the idea of dialogue which will educate. Politicians are one thing but people on the street should be made aware. This can only happen through dialogue. And the sigining of the protocols will be the beginning.
Janine... Thank you my dear for yet again pointing out to AB that using caps is inappropriate.. and yet again AB does not get it.. It is hard to believe he or she has an Armenian blood running through his or her veins...
Janine jan.. Excellent commentary about the talk you have attended.. It is amazing that many forget that the one of the main reasons our ancestors were slaughtered was because of what we believed in.. because what we worshiped.. Lord Jesus Christ... because what values we were instilled with... I agree with you 110% that the survival of the fittest is nothing but a destruction of everything a human race stands for... Why have culture, art, music, heritage if someone can sweep everything by a creating a war? Does not make sense to me.. that is not humane.
AB,
Please spare me with your reasoning on Article 301 .. It was created to shut anyone that speaks of Genocide.. Critics vs insults is simply a NONSENSE... We both know that Turkey will always take anything relating to Armenian Genocide and its history or recognition as an insult... Hrant Dink was shot to dead not because he was insulting Turkishness but he was the advocate of what it means to be true to your ancestral history and roots, the Armenian Genocide and the part Turkey played in it.... He tried to bring this matter to light by educating not only the Turks but also anyone living in Turkey and the world... However, Turkey did not let that happen..Insulting vs Critics my foot...What a BS...This is what I can't stand.. Trying to justify a law that is wrong in its own entirity. That is just wrong... among some of the reasonings that you use in regards to our lands, our Genocide and Turkey in general...
Thank you
Gayane
Hi there Leslie, welcome to the discussion. The term Metz Yeghern in Armenian actually translates into - great catastrophe or - great calamity - and is therefore not a direct and LEGALLY accurate translation of the appropriate English term - genocide - used to characterize the Armenian Genocide. Conversely, the term Tseghaspanotyoon in Armenian is a direct translation of the word - genocide - in Armenian.
President Obama shamefully chose to play linguistic gymnastics with Armenian and English euphemisms to no avail. Indeed, a devious and highly offensive ploy that will cost him politically more than he may think.
President Obama made a promise to the American people to recognize the Armenian Genocide once in office and capitulated miserably in doing so upon entering the White House. If President Obama really wanted to be more considerate and sincere in his annual commemorative message he would release a written statement accurately in English and translated into Armenian using the exact legal terms for characterizing the Armenian Genocide. Hope this helps.
I think another starting point, in addition to what David and Janine proposed, may be revitalization of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitrary Award re: Armenia’s borders, as shown in the Treaty of Sevres signed between governments of Armenia and Turkey in 1920. The award remains in effect so long as Armenia signs new agreement with Turkey on border demarcation. Although not ratified by the Armenian and Turkish parliaments for different reasons, Wilson’s Award has a power of a law and is still valid. The Treaty of Sevres is the only treaty that’s been signed by independent Armenian Republic and Turkey. All other treaties, including the Treaty of Kars signed in 1921, have no legal power under the international law because they were signed by the parties that were not subjects of international law. For instance, the Treaty of Kars was signed by illegitimate representatives of the Kemalist regime and Bolshevik Soviet Transcaucasian republics, who were unrecognized by the international law at the time of signing.
Armenia can claim its legal right for the territories, which were to be placed under the jurisdiction of the Armenian government in line with the Treaty of Sevres. As for the local population (mostly Kurds) who inhabit them after the Armenians were expelled, the government of Armenian may offer to Turkish government to rent these lands or to use them jointly.
My two cents to this discussion.
K
There’s an article in the Yerevan magazine, an Armenian international magazine published in Los Angeles and Moscow that has Agassi’s interview (Spring 2010 Issue [8]). Actually, Agassi emphasized that his father always told him to make sure to tell people he was an Armenian, not Iranian. He also revealed that the Armenian fan base treated him ‘like a family, really, a lot of support’ throughout his career, and that he’d always ‘give a little extra time to an Armenian.’ He added that he’s ‘interested in the Armenian life and culture, it’s part of [his] blood, so the older [he] gets, the more important it becomes.’
Ferhat -- I have not read all of your posts but I just want to tell you what a refreshing voice you have. Thank you for your progressive and informed opinions. I am glad for the changes in the relationship to Kurdish people like you that has happened since the genocide. I have felt support for the Kurdish people and their struggle for their own rights, regardless of the past.
I don't wish to be insulting although I think it will sound this way: my grandmother's point of view was that the Kurds would do whatever they were paid to do at that time. If the Turks paid them to help slaughter Armenians, that is what they did. If an Armenian family paid them to take care of their relatives, then they would do that until the money ran out. My great grandmother was cared for by a Kurdish family after her husband was killed; the children were sent to live with their Turkish business partner. Great grandmother was cared for until the money was gone and she died of typhus. Then my grandmother with her brother ran away to the orphanage to be with the rest of the Armenian children.
edit: I should say great grandmother was pregnant when she was beaten by Turkish authorities after her husband was tortured to death. Later her child was stillborn while she was in the care of Kurdish family. Eventually she died of typhus later. Her children were in the only place she knew they would at least be safe from murder by the soldiers; after she died they ran away to the orphanage. So heartbreakingly sad. Unfortunately not unusual. My grandmother would not speak about this until very late in her life; she thought she was protecting her children.
Dear Disgruntled American Voter and Haro.. I agree with everything you said 100%.
It is bad enough US pushed this protocol matter on Armenia, now they are playing the cat and mouse game.. trying to side with both countries... but that is not how it plays out..
US stands for democracy, freedom of speech, justice and truth...well at least that is how they show to other countries; however from their actions in regards to the Armenian Genocide... they are NOTHING but scared rabbits... As strong, powerful country as US being belittled like this by Turkey is unheard of... I just can't wrap my mind around this.. as to why US is scared sooo much of Turkey.. US does not need Turkey as much as Turkey needs USA.... but US acts like cowards.. What can Turkey do to scare US this much? WHAT? by withdrawing its Ambassador?
Just like the Disgruntled American Voter stated..
Recognizing the Genocide once and for all and having Obama send out an apology to all Armenians for breaking his promise is the first step.. then as Haro stated, we will need to get our lands back little by little.. until everything is returned to us according to Woodrow Wilson's map....
Does not matter how long they delay, we will not stop fighting for what belongs to us...
Thank you
Gayane
Gayane, you did not get my point. There is no first to having our lands back. That is the essence of the trap I am talking about. We cannot have "First recognize Genocide and then have our lands back...". This is the trap that got us nowhere...
No! my people, Armenians, push for the lands and reparation, whether they recognize the Truth or not... The Truth is not conditional, it is and will remain the truth. Genocide is a historic truth, and does not need anybody's recognition for it. So let's not have a chicken mentality on this matter.
By waiting for a recognition we are indeed putting this Truth under doubt... Can't people get this point...
GIVE US OUR LANDS BACK AND REPARATION AND PERIOD. NOTHING LESS AND NO MORE WAITING...
Thank you for your reply Shantagizoum and Simon.
Not only does the communiqué issued accept that ".........the Armenian term for the Armenian Genocide – Metz Yeghern...." it is clear from a search on the internet that
" "Meds Yeghern" (alternative spelled as Medz Yeghern, Mets Yeghern, Metz Yeghern) is used by Armenians synonymous with Հայոց ցեղասպանություն (Hayoc’ c’eġaspanut’yun), “‘Genocide of Armenians’”) to refer to the Armenian Genocide the way Shoah is used by Jews to refer to the Holocaust. The term "Mets Yeghern" was used by John Paul II prayer during the visit to the memorial of Tsitsernakaberd and by the US president Barack Obama's statement of on Armenian Remembrance Day."
Pope John Paul II did not invent the word but used it because it was an Armenian word that was used by Armenians to describe the Armenian genocide as did Obama.
I looked up the meaning of Shoah the Hebrew name for the Jewish Genocide and it is perhaps not a coincidence that its biblical meaning was Calamity, catastrophe etc an identical meaning to what Metz Yeghen also means.
I do however agree that it is all important to get the TURKS to accept the genocide / Metz Yeghern / Hayoc’ c’eġaspanut’yun / holocaust / Tseghaspanotyoon / TSEGHASBANUTYUN / Shoa and or whatever the Turkish name is for Genocide.
It is I fear with the lapse of time going to be harder and harder to get compensation for the following reasons :
Unlike the Jews you have been unable to conclude agreements whilst those who caused the genocide were still living. It does become difficult to see a situation whereby the great grand sons and daughters can be held liable for the atrocities of their ancestors under the Ottoman Empire, an Empire far greater than the current Turkey. I have recently become a grand father and I cannot see how it is at all just to ask my baby grandson or his children when born to take on in later life the consequences of any atrocities I may commit. This is going to be exceedingly difficult to achieve, the current generations of Turks, I understand have been indoctrinated from birth in their history books to deny any genocide which also must be overcome.
I do appreciate that perhaps the crimes of a nation are different to the crimes of an individual and I do feel there should be compensation however I can only see this happening if Turkey felt an even bigger reward would come to them. The only thing that may bring about such a situation is the carrot of European Membership. This will require the full influence of Obama and the heads of Europe to make such compensation and resolution of this matter conditional for Turkey to be able to join Europe. Indeed I also feel Armenia in due course should also become part of Europe. It is of course an attractive proposition to the USA and Europe for Turkey Armenia and other neighbours to be part of Europe. I always believe that when there is something for everyone the impossible becomes possible otherwise it tends to remain impossible. I really do think a rethink of your tactics by your leaders is necessary for you to achieve all you want to achieve and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, I believe, does not help your cause and does not inspire one to believe that you are being well led.
As an outsider I have perhaps overstepped the mark with my comments I trust that it is understood that they are made with the best of intentions for your cause. I will refrain from commenting further.
To AB:
The so called Protocols are an insult to all Armenians. And we, in the Diaspora have made that clear. The closing of borders on East & West of Armenia has and continues to cause hardship for the RA. Some people, not all, may think they have to submit to the Protocols but the reality is that Turkey & allies (yes the USA too) are trying to shut us all up.
But we are not shutting up...and you being who you are should be supporting Armenians. In fact in a week the world will hear the loudest protests on the Genocide in 95 years.
Just because you live in Turkey and are a Turkish citizen doesn't mean you have to embrace wrong & unjust ideas! As I have said embrace Truth & Justice....like Jesus said "...And the Truth will set you free".
To Janine & Gayane:
Bullies are all over the place. Interesting to note that people who believe in the concept of "survival of the fittest" or "conquerers keep what they have gained" "or whoever steals the pretty girl..may keep her as his possession" etc. etc. Will be the first to protest against others bullying them! It's absurd!
If the children of the bullies are bullied in the school yards (by the fittest? right?) they...first thing in the morning they will be in the principal's office bitching about bullies? This is nothing but duplicity, double standards, if they really believed in the 'survival of the fittest' they should not complain about their children (or other members of their clan) being bullied by the 'fittest' Right?
G
To AB & Karo:
Thanks for your 2 cents Karo (really worth a fortune) regarding the legality of The Treaty of Sevres.
AB had just said that Treaty of Lauzon had superseded the Treaty of Sevres. I am glad you brought this to the open.
I believe the Wilsonian Armenia is a legitimate territory put forward by President Wilson. Only if today's President would also embrace it!
Simon.. you took the words out of my mouth...
This is how Obama plays the political game by pulling a wool over people's eyes ....just like it did to Leslie who may have a pure intentions and advocacy toward the Armenian cause but because she does not know the real facts and in depth understanding of what Genocide is, and why it relates to Armenians in such strong way, would definintely think that Obama kept his promise by stating "Metz Yeghern" instead of "The Armenian Genocide"... Armenians see it through the glass no matter how dirty it is... Leslie sees it differently.. She sees it as a clear glass... it is ok.. it is not her fault.. I am surprised that her best friend did not stop her from writing her commentary and inform her the actual facts about what constitue Genocide and what is Metz Yeghern... We see how Obama is trying to fool his people by categorizing the Armenian Genocide under the Armenian version of the word that does not relate to it at all... He definitely fooled the non-Armenians (hopefully not the most).. however, his true colors are coming out day by day and he will lose the next battle ... I hope that the Armenians realize what kind of power we have to stop liars being elected into the White House...
Leslie, I do apologize that you are getting all these push back but you have to understand that speaking the truth is nothing close to trying to speak the truth by using false facts/words....Hopefully this will change your mind about OBama keeping his true promise...
God Bless
Gayane
Thank you Boyajian..excellent commentary..
Lets see how AB is going to answer and justify what you have asked.
AB........I have lost my patience with people such as yourself who are ignorant to the last cell of their being or minimize the effects to the smallest degree... sometimes I just don't bother to speak without passion... and hence why my comments come off strong...and my buttons have been pushed by you over and over... hence, why I write the way I write.. So if you are shouting at me and at my comrad, go ahead.. .. it goes to show that you can't handle the pressure... and the truth...you are in denial.....it is ok.. it is not your fault.. to be true to yourself and to others and admit your guilt ridden conscience is the best way to move forward.. let go and embrace what you are being taught on this site... it will only help you....but shouting is just simply pathetic...
Have a wonderful evening...
Gayane
Author: AB
Comment:
GAYANE,
YOU REALLY ARE CONFUSED IN YOUR HEAD.
AB
Here it goes.. open your eyes and read what i am going to tell you...
You say I am confused in my head? I may be alot of things but one thing I am not is confused about who i am. I am a great grand daughter of the Armenian Genocide Survivor who lost his entire family to bastards Ottoman Turks and their lands, and wealth were taken by force leaving my great grandfather penniless and alone in the world..You ignorant person... I know who I am...I am a proud Armenian with the blood of my ancestors running through my veins... DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE? I bet you are as confused as any Turk leaving in Turkey due to the mass brainwashing that has been going on for a century done by your govt. Please go check your head first before accusing someone being confused... and don't worry.. one day your head will clear when the lands that belong to Armenians are returned to them and your precious govt apologizes for the Genocide... You are a joke... and if i am annoying you with my comments.. well so be it..... just like you continue to shout at me and others...
To Janine,
Your comments on article 301 is just your opinion. Of course, I do not agree with such law. But from there to assume that Orhan Pamuk was discharged because of international pressure it is a long way. Orhan Pamuk is living in his nice house in Istanbul. What pressure is he under? Moreover, what does Dink's killing has to do with article 301? I am sorry Janine, you are angry at us because we state that we are happy. You are even telling me that I have a "collaborationist behavior". What do you want me to do to lie to you and say, we have no liberty and we are opressed?
On the worry of Turkish people posting here afraid of article 301, do I look afraid or worried? Do I look like I fear persecution?
To Boyajian,
I think that article 301 has to be amended. Regarding the murder of Mr. Dink it has no direct relation with article 301. Whether he was murdered by an individual acting by himself or by a group of people it remains a question mark. In my opinion, it was a group of people with the aim of increasing tensions, people who are against the normalization of relations between Turks and Armenians. To a certain extend they have succeeded. Almost every commentator in this site is talking about what happened to Mr. Dink., and this is exactly what they wanted. I would like to remember more the 100.000 people present at the funerals in sign of support, condemning the killing.
To your other questions, there is not much I can tell. Only my mother returned to Turkey after marrying my father. Years later my grand father used to come in the summer to Turkey to visit us. A part of my my mother's family emigrated from Lebanon to the USA.
Regarding living with people denying as I said previously difference has to be made between gouvernment policy and ideas of people on the street. People on the street have very divers opinions. In recent months there are a lot of tv shows debating the issue.
To Karo;
The Traite de Sevres has no legal value. It was annuled in 1923 and replaced by traite de Lausanne. How can you refer to something which no longer exists?
Ottoman Empire who had lost the war was forced to sign the Traite de Sevres. In fact this treaty was the dismanteling and sharing of Ottoman empire among French, English, Italian, Grec and Armenian. After the independence war led by Ataturk, the occupied territories were liberated, and the traite de Lausanne was signed to define the new borders of Turkey.
What I am stating above is not an opinion but historical fact.
AB,
You’re mistaken, and it’s not the only mistake you’ve made in these pages.
In 1923 the Treaty of Sevres was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne, true, but not all the signatories of Treaty of Sevres signed the Treaty of Lausanne. Armenia has not. In 1921 Bolshevik troops invaded the independent Armenian Republic, therefore in Lausanne the Soviet Union, and not the Republic of Armenia, was a signatory. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991, and the modern-day Republic of Armenia pronounced itself heir of the democratic Armenian Republic of 1918-1921. Therefore, the only legal treaty between the Turkish state and the Republic of Armenia is the Treaty of Sevres. All other treaties were signed by signatories either not representing Armenia (as in Lausanne) or representing illegitimate, unrecognized parties (as in Kars).
BTW, if, according to you, the signing of modern-day protocols is a good start, might you have any idea as to why your government is delaying it, shows no intention to ratify them, and links these documents with an issue (read: Nagorno-Karabakh) that has no connection whatsoever with the bilateral Turkish-Armenian relations?
To Gary M,
I respect your opinion, but I am sorry I do not agree with you.
I personnally think that the protocols are the start of a new beginning.
I am sure there are others who thinks in the same manner I do.
It is not right for you to tell me I am embracing wrong ideas because I do not share your ideas.
AB -- Dink himself repeatedly said before his assassination that it was the repeated charged under Article 301 that brought threats to his life. It was the repeated charges that took him to the authorities to complain that he needed security because the attention brought him daily threats. And it was the repeated charges and harassment that brought incredible tension and fear into his life. He openly complained about the repeated use and threats of use of 301 in his life. These are his words.
The photographs of the policemen smiling with his killer are enough to convince others about how this murder was regarded by many. Why not you? I am certain people were outraged by his killing, because of the issue of free speech raised in general and because it is entirely shameful. But Kemalism is something I don't accept in any form, no matter who's ultranationalism or which nation we are talking about. It is racism. The Greek Patriarchate for example experiences outrages against its own freedom to operate as a religious institution, and Turkey has been condemned by the European Court in this case. It is unfortunate that you are not able to see the 60 Minutes broadcast recently with the Patriarch to hear a true side of things.
As I have said, I have had repeated contact with highly educated Turks from upper class circles (and who could attend top universities in the US). With a few exceptions, the experience of racism and antipathy was very strong. There were some notable exceptions but these individuals would not openly speak their opinions unless strong political commitments meant they were already in open opposition to the govt.
Perhaps in Turkey they report Pamuk's problems differently. In the international newspapers it was presented around the world the way I say it: charges were brought against him but dropped because of international pressure. He himself complained in writing in newspapers about his treatment and the use of 301!! Furthermore the charges were dropped not only after an international outcry but also the week before the EU was to do a systematic review of Turkey's justice laws specifically focusing on the issues related in Pamuk's case. You have things presented to you in Turkey in a more distorted fashion than you think.
Here are Pamuk's own words, from a speech he made in late 2008 in Frankfurt:
The case against him was subsequently dropped, and Article 301 was amended earlier this year, but Pamuk said yesterday afternoon in Frankfurt that "the state's habit of penalising writers and their books is still very much alive; Article 301 of the Turkish penal code continues to be used to silence and suppress many other writers, in the same way it was used against me; there are at this moment hundreds of writers and journalists being prosecuted and found guilty under this article."
Also, you seem not to know that Erdogan has just said the Turkish Parliament will not ratify the protocols. Unfortunately -- I support displomatic relations and open borders. The question of the genocide is undebatable and has already been decided by worldwide scholarship, historical witness and more archival evidence that continues to mount (such as census figures finally publishes in the past year or so and kept secret until now).
AB - I want to make it clear that I am glad you are here to dialogue and talk, but just as long as the shouting is over. Let us all talk to one another. Even if I disagree with you, I learn about your life by what you say. I am certain that our sister Gayane will also be glad to dialogue and to disagree if we can all speak to one another without shouting, etc.
Gary M -- interesting thing you say about bullies. I find often that people who were childhood bullies also tend to think they are the most bullied people, very weak tolerance for any adversity and very, very selfish!!! Very limited thinking.
To CDEFG,
I do not claim to be right on all I say.
Regarding the treaty of Lausanne. Obviously, Armenia could not have signed this treaty because it was not existing. But does this make this treaty less valid? It is a legal issue I might not be able to reply.
The same could be said for the treaty of Sevres which was signed by Ottoman Empire and not the Republic of Turkey.
The fact remains that Lausanne treaty was signed with all signatories of Sevres treaty (exception of Armenia but with participation of USSR), treaty which replaced Sevres treaty.
The signing of the protocols are delayed from the Turkish side, because there are some in the government who do not agree to abandon the Azeri issue.
Like the Diasporan Armenian who categorically rejects the protocols.
I personnally do not share the same opinion.
In my view, with the pressure of the international community sooner or later the protocols will be signed. This neither the Turkish faction opposing the protocols nor the Diasporan Armenian can prevent it from happening.
Firstly to dear Gayane,
If you will kindly refer back to my above -previous-post you will note that even if a U.S. president pronounces the word Genocide perpetrated on Armeniansby the by a U.S. pres.( R.Reagan did) it does not mean a thing...IT HAS NOT.Neither will it mean much if it is pronounced by president Obama.
Issue at stake is what happens AFTER culprit acceptsby the by what Mr. Dweck writes, re Claim being too late to lodge is incorrect) One should study the U.N. drawn up after WWII in S.F. that stipulates such acts have no Expiry dates....
How coe we did not commence such a claim before...for Heaven's sake...one should be very naiv to think that "MNATZORTATZ" MEANS REMNANTS of people sbmitted to that Enormous crime that somehow escaped the Death marches the massacres,hardly able to somehow board ships to unload them-yes unload them like Cargo in Marseille, Boston B-Aires etc., -who had to live in makeshift "Bidonvilles means shacks made of tin -Large-Gasoline tins...could not even speak the languages of those countries...LODGE A CLAIM.
THEY DID NOT ALLOW US ..THE VICTORIOUS ALLLIES AND GREAT TURKEY EVEN ENTRY AT LAUSANNE BEAU RIVAGE HOTEL,VIZ. 1921 INFAMOUS TREATY -OUR TWO DELEGATES AVEDIS AHARONIAN AND BOGHOS NUBAR STAYED BEHIND DOORS...
BUT NOW I 2010 ,OCT 10 MR. LAVROV, FOREIGN SEC. OF RUSSIA MS. HILLARY AND EU FOREIGN SEC. FLEW INTO ZURICH AND OUR -YES ... O U R AMBASSADOR THERE IN SWITZERLAND MR. CHARLES AZNAVOUR AND OTHER ARMEN DELEGATES WERE SITTING IN EASY CHARS IN FROM OF ABOVE TRIO,WHILE PROTOCLS WERE BEING SIGNED...WE HAD COME A LONG WAY ..THENCE TO QUESTION OR POSE Q QUESTION LIKE DEAR MR. DWECK DOES IS REALLY SRPRISING...NOW WE CAN AND WE SHALL DO .YOU CAN BET ON THAT...NOT ONLY IN THE CORRIDOERS OF U.K , U.S. _LOBBYING(BROKERAGE ACTUALLY)...BUT IN MANY MANY OTHER COUNTRES PARLIAMENTS..AS A GOOD FRIEND OF ARMENIANS PROF.YVES TERNOT,AST APRIL IN PARS "SGGESTED " TO US GATHERED IN A CONF. THERE...THESE THREE WORDS..
AND I QUOTE" P ARLEMENT A PARLEMENT"...SELF EXPLANATORY...
AS TO GETTING COMPENSATION FROM GREAT TURKEY I HAVE EXPLAINED THAT TO FRIENDS THEY ARE NOT THE PAYING TYPE , THEY RECEIVE ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS "HAND OUTS"...THOSE WHO KNOW IT KNOW...NO NEED TO REPEAT FROM WHOM...
IF WE THEN WIN THE CASE...THAT IS OUR CAUSE, LIKE "SUGGESTED' IN PREV. POST IT WILL BE THROUGH THOSE ESTABLISHMENTS THAT PASSED THE OIL PIPE LINE -SIDESTEPPING R.OF ARMENIA....
LAND ISSUE.WAIT UNTILL "MOUNTAIN TURKS" ISSUE IS ON STAGE...SOONER OR LATER...NEED I TO REPEAT NOW CALLED k u r d s by their real name...
BEST RGDS,
AB - occupied territories? You mean those places where Greek and Armenians lived since ancient times -- many centuries before Turks appeared? You mean those places where Greeks and Armenians can no longer be found? What kind of liberation is that? I'm sorry, but your education has taken shape in an ultranationalist viewpoint that does not include the whole truth of life and reality. You exclude the cleansing of all Christian minority from this occupied territory and well beyond (Smyrna, for example, with the hideous butchering and characteristic burning that took place there under "liberation"). Your education system has this mindset, that all is about war and grabbing territory and the rights of people mean nothing. That is not liberation.
AB,
I’m not disputing that Treaty of Serves was annulled in 1923 and replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne. I’m bringing up a historical fact that the Treaty of Lausanne was signed by the representatives of the USSR, not the Republic of Armenia. After the disintegration of the USSR in December 1991, the only legal document defining the borders between Turkey and Armenia, I repeat: Turkey and Armenia, not between Turkey from one side and the Allies and the USSR from another, is the Arbitral Award of the U.S. president Woodrow Wilson, which was embodied in the Treaty of Sevres of 1920.
For your information, the only legal document still in force that exists between the U.S. and Turkey, that defines the boundaries of the Turkish state is… ready for this?... Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award. There’s no other document bearing an official Seal of the U.S. government that defines borders of modern Turkey than the Wisonian Award.
And the Treaty of Sevres was aimed at dismantling the Ottoman empire among France, Britain, Italy, Greece, and Armenia because a number of ancient lands that were occupied by the Ottoman empire were not originally Turkish. Many nations who were enslaved by the Ottoman Turks lived there long before the Ottoman empire had formed in the 14th century A.D. The Wilsonian Award was an attempt to recover those lands (basically, six Armenian provinces of Van, Bitlis, Sivas, Diyarbekir-Tigranakert, Kharbert, Erzerum + added Trabzon) for their rightful owners: the Armenians.
Also for your information, the Treaty of Lausanne was convened and signed not so much because the independence war led by freemason Mustafa Kemal, but primarily because there was a new reality on the ground: the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
It's great to have this opportunity to explore ideas with all of you...
AB, you and I disagree about the connection of Article 301a and the murder of Hrant Dink. I believe that the very existence of such a law in your country legitimizes the extreme views of ultra-nationalist groups seeking to cause anarchy and to muzzle the voices of people who seek and speak truth. It provides the atmosphere from which these groups draw breath.
I am confused regarding the group you suggest is responsible for Hrant's death. Please say more about this.
I too, often think about the 100,00 who supported the funeral after Hrant's death and am filled with awe at the potential that it holds for a reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia. But I also wonder where they are now; are they speaking openly to their neighbors and friends about the truth or are they whispering in dark corners for fear of retribution?
Thank you for tolerating the many questions that I put to you. I am very grateful for your patient answers. I also hope to awaken the sleeping Armenian in you. You are a good citizen for your country but it may be time to put down the hookah of Turkish loyalty. Come out where the air is clear and you may begin to hear the voices carried by the fresh air of Truth of our ancestors calling for justice.
Also, the Treaty of Sevres was never annulled as far as I know and remains legal today. Please check your facts. Armenia never signed the Treaty of Lausanne. Turkey continues to distort the facts and avoid the consequences that they agreed to and the West is in collusion. Politicians will continue to prostitute themselves in the service of greed and power as long as ordinary citizens meekly allow it with their silence.
Kiazer, I am with you 100%...
Gayane
Please: Can you put this poem on poetry site for remembrance Date?
___________________________________________________
The Remembrance Date* Is to Paint Tulips,
Never Sprain Flowers, Throw Lifeless in Heaps
Is it fair to remember our genocide
By fresh flowers sprained from fresh stems.
What mistakes have the flowers done,
To be thrown on stones, ending April hems?*
To live for a few hours, then turn to ashes!
For a day or two for the lost spirits left sensed,
Hence, repeating every year, in unskilled trade craze.
Mourning beautiful plants like Armenian corpses in piles.
Why must soulful plants suffer for dears in vain?
Letting floras dry to alleviate our saddest strain.
On account of happy flowers! Dancing in bushing hives!
Are we behaving unkindly to altruistic plants our allies?
Let every one of us paint red Armenian tulip: “bloody-red”
For the innocents tortured, by harsh hands in their heads.
That means millions of Araratian lalas expressess the arts of pains,
Condensed under cracked ribs, praying to compel in fain.
Contributions will send helpful shares
To establish schools named “Genocidal Tulips”
Teaching young cohorts dusking on Internet screens
The integrative facts attempt to achieve the ‘real peace’.
______________________________________________
Armenian Genocide began on April 24, 1915, and continued till 1923.
______________________________________________
Armenian Genocide began on April 24, 1915, and continued till 1923.
" The River Run Red "
Every Bedouin Said
Narrating still to their cohorts
Every now and then.
Horrible stories
How the seen sights can forget!
Thanks to all that are bringing to light the facts of the Treaty of Sevres (Karo, Gary, CDEFG, others).
Diasporan Armenians, Turkish Armenians and Armenians in the RA should ideally work together to achieve goals that support and strengthen the Republic, bring the truth to light and bring reconciliation with Turkey. We all have a legitimate say in the issue (though I sometimes wonder if the Turkish Armenian has the freedom to approach the matter openly and fairly). We need to dialogue amongst each other to understand each others viewpoints but in the end to do what is right is a pretty straight forward matter. Open trade, open borders, monetary restitution, Armenian access to historical sites for the purpose preservation and restoration are just a few.
Congratulations, Tom! Recognition well deserved!
Thank you Janine jan... I definintely agree with you on respecting people no matter what.. just because they are annoyed by our comments, it does not give them the right to shout at them.. simply human to human treatment that my parents taught me.. no one asked AB to agree with anything we say.. at this point, i can care less what he says... because obviously he does not have the Armenian blood that he says he has in him; otherwise he would not comment on matters that completely voids and contradicts to the Armenian Genocide and cause, the truth and justice.. Even though he has his own opinions and we have ours, I still do not have to agre with him..
Janine you yourself, Boyajian, Gary, Karo, Dr. Deranian, CDEFG and the rest of our own who believe in our cause and justice/truth, are my heros.. I have great respect and admiration for all of you.. Your words, knowledge and passion drives me forward... I want to thank you all...
God Bless you all.. even you AB
Gayane
Janine;
It is correct that Greeks lived in Western Turkey. But again Ancient Greeks went all the way to Italy, to Northern Africa, As far as France and Spain. Based on your logique all those countries should be restituted to Greece.
In the traite de Sevres a part of Antolia was given to the French, a part to the English and a part to the Italian. Did they also leave many centuries before there?
To Karo;
As I said earlier, the treaty of Lausanne was of course signed by URSS and not Armenia, because at the signing in 1923, Armenia was not existing as independent entity.
To Boyajian,
You are suggesting that the existence of an article 301 is causing ultranionalist feelings. I think this is a long shot but it might be posible.
The group I am suggesting is Ergenekon. There are a lot of articles in English as well which you can find on the net. In 2 words, it is an ultranationalist group aiming to destabilize the current government. In there agenda is also the killing of minorities, businessman and newpaper writers.
The Armenian in me is already awake, but I think our angles are different.
Although the term Medtz Yeghern is not a legally accurate interpretation of the Armenian Genocide, it is a somewhat colloquial reference to the Genocide used by some within Armenian circles, but the lack of semantic exactitude by a Columbia and Harvard Law School graduate hardly goes unnoticed without a shrewd calculated political assessment. This is unquestionably true especially when dealing with a (supposed) American ally still unable to accept the reality of historical truth and particularly when the Republic of Turkey is so fervently involved (diplomatically, financially and legally) in trying to conceal, contradict and cloak the Armenian Genocide.
Did Obama promise to recognize the Medtz Yeghern? No, he promised to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Do you think Armenians would have overwhelmingly supported/funded Obama's campaign and voted for him en masse if he had promised to recognize the Medtz Yeghern? Highly unlikely then and definitely not today or hereafter. Lets just say that any candidate who makes a campaign promise to recognize the Medtz Yeghern will face their own Medtz Yeghern come election time...
Any futile attempts to mollify Americans with deliberately vague and inaccurate characterizations of the Armenian Genocide only serve to hinder the fight against future genocides and their denial.
If you examine Obama's statement made during his campaign from January 18, 2008 (http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/19/barack_obama_on_the_importance.php) , you will find two very interesting and telling facts. First, there are 11 references specifically citing the word - genocide - within 5 paragraphs of one letter. Second, there is not one mention made of either of the following terms: Medz Yeghern, Mets Yeghern, Metz Yeghern, Հայոց ցեղասպանություն (Hayoc’ c’eġaspanut’yun), Holocaust, Tseghaspanotyoon, Shoa or what have you.
Now, compare Obama's letter above (referencing genocide 11 times) with his commemorative statement as President in April 2009 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-of-President-Barack-Obama-on-Armenian-Remembrance-Day/ ). As an Armenian, the results are hardly surprising...Not one mention of the word genocide in any context and two references made about the Meds Yeghern. Coincidence? Hardly. Reacting to threats of a paper tiger...much more likely. Just like many astute observers, I'm sure you don't find these facts merely coincidental, or even inconsequential but rather interpret the letter to be downright insulting and quite hypocritical to say the least.
Now for a comparison to address the Holocaust/Shoah example. Five days ago on April 11, 2010, the White House released their annual Statement by the President on Holocaust Remembrance Day (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/statement-president-holocaust-remembrance-day ). Holocaust is mentioned three times. Moreover, three important words are presented in this exact logical order - genocide, justice and peace, each written once. The word Shoah is not specifically mentioned. In addition, juxtaposing the titles alone is very revealing. The Presidents statement on the Holocaust actually mentions the - Holocaust - the reason for the letter, whereas the statement on the Armenian Genocide vaguely identifies an - Armenian Remembrance Day. Want to take a stab at why President Obama just didn't leave out the word genocide and refer to it merely as the Holocaust/Shoah, Leslie? I respect your opinion but I must reiterate that purposely neglecting to include the word genocide written in English or Armenian is offensive to me and very far from acceptable to our community.
For another very clear example attesting to the Presidents untenable double standard take a look at his statement released last week commemorating the Rwandan Genocide April 7, 2010. (http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/statement-president-16th-anniversary-genocide-rwanda ) The President mentions the word genocide 3 times within the one paragraph letter to the Rwandan community.
Again Leslie, interesting post and please don't hesitate to write/visit again. In fact, to address some of your concerns about our legal claims for reparations and restitution there is a lively discussion about our viable legal options that you may find interesting and informative. The link to the relevant discussion on this site is copied below.
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/03/25/voire-ani-et-mourire-dispatches-from-turkey-part-iii/comment-page-5/#comment-11432
AB - you wrote:
It is correct that Greeks lived in Western Turkey. But again Ancient Greeks went all the way to Italy, to Northern Africa, As far as France and Spain. Based on your logique all those countries should be restituted to Greece.
Well, you know, your argument is really not straight. I did not say that everything "belongs" to Greece. Frankly, I think all the Turks would have been better off if Greece won that war, if you ask me, in terms of living standards and rights, freedom, and cultural advancement. But that's another subject. What is did say was to take issue with your term of liberation. The Turks in Greece were not exterminated as the Greeks in Pontus and Armenians and Assyrians were. You did not see the scenes in Greece that happened in Smyrna. This is not liberation. The population exchange as far as the Greeks were concerned was to avoid more genocide - as what happened to the Armenians! In fact, the ancient colony of Trebizond and the Black Sea Coast Pontus Greeks was a thriving area with thousands of people at the time all of this happened. As the Swedish Parliament has recognized, part of the cleansing and genocide of the Christian people of Eastern Anatolia has included tens of thousands (if not hundreds) of Greeks in Pontus. They also were taken on the long marches of "deportation", thrown off of bridges and all kinds of horrors happened to them. That, I repeat, is not "liberation!" Neither is the fact that they have disappeared from where they were since ancient times. To call that liberation is the slick words of the brutish and brutal. It is also stupid in my opinion to be proud of what Turkey has lost through its violence and brutality: powerfully productive, ancient culture and civilization, industrious well-educated people with a high regard for the best education and tradition had to offer from that ancient world they kept alive, and into the greatest thinkers among the Fathers of the Church.
My heart fills with pride when I read of an Armenian with such prestige and education... I am proud of Mr Oganessian...
May God protect you and may you discover many more Elements
Gayane
I have 3 words for the Turkish Gov. No it is not have a nice day!But GFY.Their efforts to divide and conquer will not succeed.We survivors ;second ,third generation will not cave in .We the diasporan Armenians from Lebanon ,Argentina,USA , Europe and everywhere;will prevail .Turkish government will cave in to Human rights activist who are Turkish ,Armenian ,American and from everywhere on this planet.
Truth and justice will prevail.
My dearest Janine.. Hyeren haskanum es?
If so, I want to say this in Armenian because it sounds much better... Qefs galisa yerp vor kartum em qo gratsnera... Shat apres... this goes to Boyajian too..
Yerani karoghanainq irar het off site kap dneinq.... with you, Gary, Boyajian, and the rest of the regulars...
Apres again... Good job...
Gayane
AB,
I’m not a legal expert or international lawyer, but I know that a treaty (Lausanne) cannot be considered valid for a party that never was a signatory to the treaty. Armenia, clearly, was not. As for Sevres, modern Republic of Turkey is the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, whereas the Republic of Armenia is not a successor of the USSR. Russian Federation is. Besides, if you think that the Republic of Turkey is not a successor of the Ottoman Empire, then one would wonder as to why your government so fervently rejects the crimes of its predecessor-state and continues the shameless policy of denial?
Again, the Treaty of Lausanne was not signed by all signatories, Armenia was absent and has not delegated its authority to the USSR because the country was invaded. The Treaty of Lausanne is no longer valid because one of the principal signatories, the USSR, no longer exists. Thus, the only treaty that enters into force and has validity within the framework of Armenian-Turkish bilateral relations is the Treaty of Sevres. Moreover, there is a document that supersedes the Lausanne Treaty: it is Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitrary Decision that he was entrusted to do based on the authority given to him by the Allies after WWI with regard to partition of Ottoman Empire. The Arbitrary Decision was never materialized because Armenia was conquered by the Soviets in 1921 and ceased to exist as an independent state up until 1991.
As for the protocols, please appreciate the difference between the official Turkish government that rejects ratification and unofficial Diasporan Armenians, as well as most citizens of Armenia, who reject the protocols. These are two incomparably different entities. Even under huge domestic pressure the government of Armenia signed and submitted the protocols for ratification. Armenia, thus, doesn’t need to be pressed by the international community. It has done its part. Where is Turkey? And what does the third issue, the Azeri one, have to do with the protocols that pertain strictly to bilateral Armenian-Turkish relations? Don’t you think it’s idiotic?
AB, I'm curious. Where did you learn to write and speak English?
Additionally, your argument about Greek ownership is not straight on one other point: there are not still hundreds of thousands of Greeks in those places. However they were there in Turkey when they were treated the same ways that we were. That makes all the difference, even in the types of arguments that you make.
Hi Tom: Congratulations on being honored by the Boy Scouts of America. What a great honor. Steve & Angele Dulgarian
Henry; Congratulations again on your excellent artice to Hillary Clinton as she as others have back down on our Armenian Genocide recognition. Because of Turkish pressure and using five Jewish Organizations to do their dirty work in the U.S. State Dept. is the reason our well recognized Genocide has not been recognized. As you has wrote, up to 30 Nations around the world have recognized this first Genocide in the 21st Century and although Turkey threatened these countries on backing down on their contracts, nothing happened. Keep up the good work Henry. Stephen T. Dulgarian
I would like to share Mr Ara nazarian's optimism regarding the recognition of the genocide in US congress. Optimism based on the fact that The protocols are the first major foreign policy failure for Obama administration, and definitely Turkey is to blame for it(as they didn't ratify it, and they made Obama look like a liar).
But knowing how Turks play politics and run their affairs, I loose my optimistic enthusiasm.
Beautifully analysed by Ara Nazarian, the trap in which Turkey has fallen by its own actions; Turkey's fastly growing arrogant behavior, built-up by its recent desperate bogus diplomatic successes, is leading the Turks to the brink of erratic trance.
The Turkish dream-like unrealistic actions are further exacerbated by the continued Armenian gains: the presence of a revived independent and sovereign Armenia at Turkey's doors; the liberation of the Armenian territory of Artsakh from the genocidal intentions of Azerbaijan; the acknowledgement of the Armenian Holocaust by twenty or so important countries and 42 US states.
Turkey is cornered, it is at the mercy of the super power, Europe's door is closed for her, it can no longer find in its neighborhood a vulnerable country to invade and occupy to survive a few more years with the stolen booty, like it has done for the past six centuries.
The world nows those facts and watches with expectations the demise of Turkey to come soon.
Kudos to Ara Nazarian.
Simon jan.. What an excellent commentary.. thank you so much...
Gayane
To: Gayane, Janine, Boyajian, Karo and others! "Katch Vartanin Tornere"
Have you folks heard "Hye Em Yes, Hye Em Yes, Katch Vartanin Torne Em Yes!"
This is what we used recite where I went to grade school...but I am not sure if all schools taught it?
Thanks to all of you for the kind remarks. It give us all hope that we are not alone, that we are not islands without our beloved support group. Especially when we are huge distances from each other. Thank you Internet too.
That TRUTH will prevail and the Armenian Nation is not destroyed; it is very much alive, even if wounded. Hopefully by having this 'community' we can help each other heal!
We, in the Diaspora especially, are definitely the product of the Armenian Genocide! How can so many grandparents, greatgrandparents, from many different and distant places, all tell the same stories? + eye witness testimonies + books detaling w/the atrocities. Ofcourse our history is TRUE. Denial will never change TRUTH! Actually even Turks admit denial has hurt the Turkish people!
You know what we say "you can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool (or lie to) all of the people some of the time...but you can never, ever fool all of the people all of the time". Every one knows this!
Simply put, our stories and historical facts are most definitely TRUE! Our ancestors were never interested in 'booty' or 'conquering others'. And today or in the future we are not either !!! Others are, and were, jealous of our accomplishments. Jealousy is only one of the reasons for them to want to get rid of us. Exterminate us. How foolish? To destroy people who are your very source of everything! People like Taner Ackam know this! They know right from wrong! And speak out risking their own lives. TRUTH IS POWERFUL! Cannot be silenced.
Anonymity may be good.... but at this stage we all wish we could get together and give one another a great big hug! Yes that would be great...and someday we may be able to do that too! We are and remain UNITED!
Keep well, you all sons and daughters of the Armenian Arudz in all of us!
This man (Hagop Goudsouzian) in Montreal actually named his son "Arudz" so that he would grow up brave! If you haven't already, please go and watch a great movie on NFB (National Film Board Canada) The title of the movie is "My Son Shall Be Armenian"
Hope you all enjoy it! Let me know what you think too? be ready for tears!
G
To CDEFG:
I agree wholeheartedly with you, as you wrote to AB. That, now is the time to implement the Wilsonian Armenia borders. Not recent Protocols which will paralyze the RA, and help Turkey to continue denial.
G
Obama, although he has personally recognized the genocide, will not do so in an official capacity...no US President will until the Turks are no longer in a position to blackmail (this will not happen until Incirlik is closed and the US finally decides to set up a base in Northern Iraq instead--which is being considered as we speak). What the US has done and is doing is the following; they are supporting Armenia's position of keeping the "protocols" and the Artsakh stalemate separate, in fact they share the same position as Russia regarding Artsakh. We will also see increased US aid (military and development) for Armenia. The US realizes Turkey is not going to open the border anytime soon. The US also recognizes that the Turkish position is untenable and it is the Turks who sabotaged the process the day after the awful protocol was signed. The current administration is not happy with the Turks regarding Iran sanction and the Armenian/Turkish peace process. There is also a sea-change related to the US position in the Caucasus as the current administration is neither pro-Saakashvili and they will not increase support or increase relations with Azerbaijan. After the about-face of the US position vis-a-vis Armenia since 1997, things are now turning around again. Armenia is smart to continue courting both the US and Russia. This isn't everything we want but is not entirely bad nor is this wishful thinking either, it is already happening.
Yes AB, you understand me correctly. I'm saying that the fact that Article 301 exists as a law in Turkey means that Turkey is a country that does not tolerate open discussion. It illustrates the existence of a paranoid tendency in the face of criticism of public policy. It makes it easier for ultra-nationals to muzzle those they don't like merely by accusing them of insulting Turkishness. How can you insult a concept? It doesn't make sense to me.
I don't want to argue with you about some of the things you are saying here that I disagree with because I suspect there is a bit of a language issue and we don't always understand each other.
I also want to add to AB, I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue with those who have very divergent opinions from your own.
With respect, I want to suggest to you that part of being a good Armenian in Turkey means that you have to engage in a game of denial of the truth, as well as become very good at wearing a false face. Maybe you become so good at wearing the false face, that you forget what the real face looks like. Also much of what is taught in your schools is propaganda regarding the history of Turkey, the events of World War I, and relationship with Armenians. Please think about this.
Bari louys, yeghpayres
Joseph,
the current administration is happy that Turkey is engaging with Iran. USA can not establish direct ties with Iran. this would be the end of the current administration and the world would recognize that Iran has prevailed.
So, it is the advantage of washington that Turkey is engaging with Iran.
Another thing is that it is not all about Incirlik. it is about the entire region that has increased Turkey's importance. even if incirlik closed (which will not be at least next two decades) Turkey will continue to play important role for its geopolitical importance. anything serious erupts in mid east would trigger earthquakes in the world economy which is not desirable for the west.
the US has lost its ability to reach to multiple regions militarily and economically. Rising powers are Russia, Turkey, (although their sphere of influence coincide) and China. Washington has realized this and let Turkey be active in the region. the PKK is almost over. the Kurdish problem is on ts way to be solved. separatists have understood that free Kurdistan will be established only after New Mexico, Arizona and California have become part of Mexico.!!
Turkey has become the 15th biggest economy in the world and joined G-20.
somethings are not developing as you want them to be, armenian brothers !!!
AMEN Gary jan...
What a great positive commentary... I got chills when I read it...
Long live Armenia and Armenians...as one body, one mind and one soul we will stand United... Lets just hope that we will be one with our lands yet again very soon....
Where can I buy or rent the movie you sugested? is this something we can view on the internet?
Gayane
Dear Ahmet
With all due respect, US foreign policy is not about to throw in the towel and hand in the sphere of influence in one of the most volatile regions of the world to Turkey and Russia. Very adverse scenarios have been happening in the region for a long long time with primary US involvement one way or another.
There is no denying that Turkish economy has grown with a per capita GDP of around 11K. However, it has an unemployment rate of ~15%, population below poverty of ~18%, annual deficit of 45 billion and industry centered around textile, food processing and mining with other sectors such as electronics that do well mostly in domestic and central Asian markets. This is hardly the picture of a powerhouse nation, given that its military (which account for about 6-7% of the nanual budget) is fully dependent on US import and expertise to stay battle ready. So, Turkey is certainly overplaying its hand for strategic reasons, which is fine, but those in the know in the US and Europe and Russia are fully aware of the picture of the true strength of the country.
Given the desired volatility of the region, and the decades long precedents for constant shifts in local powers in the region, it will not take a miracle to replace Turkey from its current position of power. Imagine what will happen if a friendly government was to come to power in Iran? Turkey could easily be back to the pre- late 70's place in the pecking order in the region in a very short while.
Ferhat - thank you for your sympathy and friendship. I do see a sincere whish from young Kurds to bulid up a good and hounest relationship with Armenians. I live in Sweden and many Kurds here did help us to get the Swedish Parliament recognize the Armenian genocide. Also my own grandfather was rescued by his nanny, a Kurdish woman he called mom. Many kurds and TURKS did help Armenians and yes in general we Armenians know that the Kurds are hounarable race and men of their word.
Having April 24th approaching, Armenians might want to recognize this issue as an opportunity to call Glenn Beck’s show and create a discussion of the Armenian Genocide. And, how it is that the majority of Armenians were dispersed around the world and explain the meanings of the words ‘Armenian Massacres’ and ‘Starving Armenians.’
If there is negative reaction, people can contact the show’s advertisers to make their perspective known and to boycott the sponsor’s products if felt justified.
It may be that a person or group paid him to do/say what was aired.
Yes, obviously a Turkish attempt to divide the Diaspora.
Sadly, there may be Armenian groups who would take up the offer of the geeky Davutoglu to talk.
Such conversations have actually taken place before, with no results. Back in the 1970's or early 80's the Turkish government spoke face to face to representatives of the ARF, ADL, and Hunchak parties in a meeting. This is well-known and has been written about publicly.
Turkey talks to its hostage Armenians all the time. Again, nothing has been gained. Turkish officials spoke with Diasporans quite often in the ill-fated TARC affair.
Again, nothing was gained.
Just look at the nutty Turkish genocide deniers who blog and post comments on this site and the Web. Nothing is gained by that. Those particular Turks have closed their minds. What a nasty, uninformed bunch they are.
Armenian diasporans dialogue with those Turks who do acknowledge the genocide. Thus, there is no need to talk to Davutoglu or his cronies, and it would do no good anyway. If Davutoglu wants to talk about the Genocide, let him talk to those Turks, including academicians, who acknowledge the Genocide.
Otherwise, we don't wish to waste our time or Davutoglu's.
Thanks Armenian Weekly for covering a science aspect of our Armenian people. With no doubt Dr. Oganessian is a brilliant figure in the research of atomic physics. However, my heart graves with a lot of pain, when we cover a story about one scientist, whereas in the heart of Armenia thousands of brilliant figures are entirely neglected. There is almost nothing mentioned about for example, Paris Haruni, Margarian, and an entirely new generation of mathematicians, computer scientist, physicists, archeologist, as well as other disciplines of science and art. Thousands of our scientist are in so desperate situations that they are doing some low paying side jobs (e.g. taxi driving, selling tomatoes, etc.) to keep up with their daily life.
Hello My Dear Friend Gayane:
For all who are interested (can't see why not?) the National Film Board (Canada) abbreviated NFB...has the film for free viewing & one can also purchase a CD. I am not sure how much $. It's a real life movie 80 minutes long.
Have you tried searching NFB? or Nationa Firm Board & then movie title "My Son Shall Be Armenian" ?
G
Again, the problem is always that there are many truths, and each one is valid for those who hold it to be the only answer. As an example...if I were color blind...my red would not be your red, yet it is the absolute 'truth' for both of us, and and if i were truly blind, my tree would not be your tree, my sunset would not be your sunset...and therein lies the problem. How to reconcile different truths without anger or hatred or violence. I am not defending lies here, just that this is a huge obstacle to overcome, as we can see everyday on this page and in our own lives.
Armenian commentators,
Please disregard this Karekin guy and pray that God gives him wisdom, set straight his misled and distorted mind. Karekin is clearly a xenophile, a ‘shur tvats’ Armenian who suffers from psychological discomfort of having an Armenian ethnic background but affinity to an alien culture only because his parents were originally from Turkey and because he apparently was treated with the typical Turkish flattery and appeasement when he visited the country. I also suspect that he might not be a follower of the Armenian Apostolic faith, if he has any Christian convictions at all. Otherwise he wouldn’t derogate the Son of God and cowardly avoid repenting for the insult.
Live in oblivion, Karekin. May God be with you…
Received this today via email:
Last Friday, April 9th, ARD, one of the biggest TV stations in Germany broadcast a 90-minute documentary on the Genocide of the Armenians. The documentary has incredible footage and it is full of damning evidence. The fact that it has been prepared by the Germans, the wartime allies of Turkey, makes it even more significant...
The producers have come up with the idea of having well-known current German actors impersonating the non-Armenian witnesses of the Genocide (Ambassadors, councils, nurses, military personnel, etc.) as if they are reciting their memoirs of the events in Anatolia during 1915-1916...
It is also significant that the documentary does not have financial sponsors of Armenian origin and it was broadcast in Germany where several million Turks live.
The documentary is in German, even if you can't follow the narrative, the whole thing is worth watching...
With all of our Hollywood artists and strong Armenian presence in North America we haven't come-up with such a strong documentary or video yet.
Hurry and watch this before it is taken off youtube.
Below are the links to the 10 segments:
1ère partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MtSaoEZLvQ
2ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fQYOB8XKtI
3ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv9ExBlYViw
4ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uve2Q_8fq0
5ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Is7PwSzDU
6ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_l2_iQqtw
7ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTdzPziJhI
8ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAGPDgs5sgk
9ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmB9MXH2d4I
10ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYcfqnJVQA
Dividing the Armenians has been the Turks' ploy for centuries. That has not and will not change. What is imperative is for Armenians all over the world to unite in the name of the Armenian race so that we can all prosper. Genocide recognition is the first step. Reparations and the return of the land stolen during and after the Genocide will be next.
Many thanks, boyajian -- This is very important news not only from the perspective of restoration of the historical truth and in support to the international recognition of the genocide, but, to me, if it’s viewed from a historical perspective. Germany was Ottoman Turkey’s ally and there is a plethora of historical evidence showing the German government’s duplicity during the WWI in tacitly endorsing the extermination of the Armenians by the Turks. Thanks so much for sharing this with us!
You are wrong Ahmet. The US is not please whatsoever with Turkey's relationship with Iran; Turkey is not supporting sanctions and Erdogan has embraced Iran/expanding relations and so forth (as well as Syria coupled with the deterioration in relations with Israel). This was one of the main themes of the US-Turkish talks in DC last week. Turkey was read the riot act by the administration. Davotoglu is now in Iran playing message boy. He is off to Baku next to give the Aliev ( whose father was the patriarch of the PKK btw--additionally, the Kurdish issue is growing more acute in Turkey despite superficial changes) with the message to butt out of the protocols. The Azeris are not at all pleased. Artsakh is permanently lost to them.
The base at Incirlik will be closed sooner than you think. Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo is almost complete and their are joint US-Israeli plans afoot in South Kurdistan. The grumblings in the Pentagon regarding Turkey is that they are tired of the threats and temper tantrums emanating from Ankara. Furthermore, the US feels that Turkey is growing unreliable. We will pull out of Iraq in the near term but will have a permanent presence in N. Iraq/Southern Kurdistan.
Regarding the Caucasus region, Russia, especially after the events in September 2008 (as well as Central Asia with the Kyrgystan coup) is tightening control of their near abroad. Georgia's catastrophic failure was an indication to all interested parties that Russia is well in command of the region. While Russia is happy to have a magnanimous relationship with Turkey, they will not cede any control to Turkey and have a number of trump cards and levers to ensure this. Turkey might be able to bully Armenians and Kurds, but taking on Russia would mean they are punching well above their weight.
And please do not call us brothers. We are not your brothers nor will we ever be. It is insulting.
Gayane and all who are interested, here is the link to the film mentioned by Gary:
http://www.nfb.ca/film/my_son_shall_be_armenian/
You are missing the point!! Dr. Oganessian is to be commended for his breakthrough discovery, which will sure to be beneficial for all mankind (although he didn't do it all by himself...he was in constant contact with his fellow physicist colleagues)! No where does he say that this was for Armenia and the dashnak Armenian diaspora!! Why must all of you always have to try and put a political spin on everything? It would be like Dr. Mehmet Oz saying that every single new surgical technique that he discovered was for Turkey and Turks! All discoveries are for the advancement of all mankind!! Please stop trying to make everything political...the world's clearly had enough of your dashnak antics by this time!!
As in Sion Arakelian post, Armenian diaspora is making this sound as if this is all about reparations and land; otherwise, money-- not really for human rights or human suffering. If only the Armenian diaspora approached this as it truly is, a human tragedy of enormous proportions all around where not only Christian Anatolian lives but also hundreds of thousands of Muslim Anatolian lives lost. As Hrant Dink correctly pointed out, this will not be resolved in foreign parliaments. This will be resolved by Turks and Armenians getting together and nursing each other's wounds-- as he put it, becoming each other's doctor-- to cure this malady that's inflicted both, by listening to each other by showing sympathy and empathy toward each other. I have never heard Armenian diaspora utter a word about Muslim Anatolian lives lost. If human suffering we're talking about, why is this so hard to accomplish? It is what the Turkish masses think that will make a difference, especially having been in the dark about this for so long. But one sided arguments as if Christian lives are worth more will always fall on deaf ears. Please people, your rhetoric is not working. It is time to rethink.
I am wondering why we have to reas about Agassi famiy stories here on Armenian Weekly. The article is portrayingMike Agassi as a hero, (he became from a poor family and so on....). So did most of the Diasporian Armenians, and most of us did not hide or "denied" our identity. There are too many humble Armenian who with the little that they had contributed more to their community than the Agassi family. I rather read about those Armenians than about people that after gaining some status in the society try to hide their identity.
I warned in one of my posts here that Turkey was offering a summer exchange program at Northwestern; so I am not surprised that it has targeted NU as a place to have genocide denial programs. I too had a run in with the "Nazi" campus police which was just unbelievable.
I just knew this was going to happen. Armenian genocide denial follows wherever Turkey is; they may be there because all the politicians are paid by the Turkish lobby????
I am so mad I could just spit because of all the trouble I have had at Northwestern University; and I would like to spit in the face of those Nazi Turks. What morons those NU people are to let the Turks speak there.
I complained to Haaretz that the American universities are producing "evil" students because the schools have racist policies and teachers (anti Israel and anti black; now anti-Armenian?); and the students may be smart but have no character and are not taught to have any; and end up becoming Wall Street crooks and Doctor Mengeles? So what the Hell is this denier doing speaking at the medical school - trying to spread his racist prejudice. Is this what Northwestern is teaching them and exposing them to? What crap.
They also let George Rockwell, an American Nazi speak there years ago.
I apologize to all you Armenians; but I really expect NORTHWESTERN to apologize to you. I would never give that school any money.
I will send them a SIGNED letter; not an anonymous post.
I wish you the best of luck and give you my whole hearted support because I know how terrible this school can be. Please use your lawyers if necessary.
I believe also that Ali Babacan got his degree at Northwestern.
What is truly disappointing is that AKP (Babacan) is as much a genocide denier as the CHP, Ataturk's party.
It seems it matters not if they are islamist or secularist; they are all nationalists and genocide deniers. I have no faith in the AKP, which is also currently having difficulties with Israel. I was hoping for more from them, but it was a false hope.
Israel is not allowed now to use Turkish air space for drills; USA was not allowed to use Incirlik.
No party in Turkey at this time is going to accept the Armenian genocide and apologize. We heard Erdogan deny it over and over again.
Unfortunately, we shall also have to watch their treatment of Israel.
Like I said, the universities let anti-semitic speakers on campus and there is a lot of harassment of the Jewish students (you can read a lot about that in Haaretz and JPost).
To: Boyajian, Taguhi & friends
Thanks for the YouTube references. This German footage is a huge blow to the Turkesh. Has any of you asked "when will Germany write our nation a cheque (spelled check in the USA) $$$ for allowing all this damage to our people?" They could have officially & easily stopped the killings by so telling their junior ally. Instead many Germans joined in the hatred game!
Worried about building a railroad and running a war w/o regard for the safety/security of defenceless & innocent people. Oh...what ppeople do for money & power? Then, twenty years later they did a whole lot more destruction in WW2. And as we speak, useless wars are still going on all over the world.!
In the last while I have often wished to have learned more Turkish, more German, more Russian. This would have helped as most of the videos are verbal explanations or reviewing history in unknown (to me) languages, in this case, German.
G
Gary, the difference with the Germans is that today they admit their guilt, made restitution to the State of Israel and to Holocaust survivors and their leaders have apologized on behalf of the nation. Further, they boldly produced a damning documentary that exposes their complicity with the Turkish campaign against Armenians. I am waiting for a Turkish leader's knee to bend, for a Turkish film maker to produce such a film and for Turkey to make restitution to the Armenian Nation.
To any Turkish film maker: The world needs a movie that shows Turks who are confronting the TRUTH and trying to come to terms with it; as well as movies that honor those Turks who helped Armenians at the risk of their own lives. In order to learn from genocide and prevent future genocides, we need to understand those people who courageously resisted the propaganda of hatred around them when others were being swept up into the hysteria of hatred and "eliminationism" (a term coined by Daniel Goldfagen, author of Worse Than War). What moral fortitude allowed these heroes to do what their neighbors couldn't? I know there exist today, modern day Turks with this same moral fortitude. Can they be allowed to give voice to the truth within?
Of course, under Article 301, none of this can happen without the film maker being accused of insulting Turkishness. It is absurd. Any Turk who wants to confront his nation's past, does so at great risk. AB are you listening?
Maybe an Armenian film maker will make such a film that not only asserts the truth of the genocide but also elevates the discussion to a more universal human exploration of the causes and remedies of genocide.
And to add to my previous comment:
We Armenians have something to give to the world beside our tears and our Christian martyrdom. We lived and are living the trauma of genocide. Let the philosophers, theologians, intellectuals, politicians, artists and common heroes among us begin to show the world what comes after the grief. Let's harness our indignation at the monstrous crime committed against us to move humanity forward. (Karekin, are you listening? Obama are you listening?)
The proper response (besides the protest outside the Northwestern building) is for ANC Illinois to invite an international Genocide scholar to lecture for much larger audience then 100 biased Turkish students. That would mean using same platform, and freedom of speech to address the Genocide issue.
To Boyajian,
At the risk of seeming self-serving, myself and associates are in the process of making just the kind of film you have described that needs to be made. To quote you ... "asserts the truth of the genocide but also elevates the discussion to a more universal human exploration of the causes and remedies of genocide."
This film, called Red Harverst, deals with the deportation and death march of the 200+ Armenian intellectuals on April 24, 1915 with primary focus on Komitas. Importantly, it's actually based on the true story, to include not only Komitas but other Armenian notables such as Rev. Krikor Balakian and Professor Diran Kelegian. What I appreciate most about the story though is the role of a young Turkish military officer who risks everything, and eventually pays for with his life, to help Armenians. If there is one central message to be taken from this film it is that the individual does matter, i.e. we can choose to do what is good and in so doing make a real difference to those around us. It's my sincere hope that this film will inspire not only Armenians, but humanity in general, and Turks in particular.
To learn more about Red Harvest go to www.komitasthemovie.com
Bravo David!
I am aware of your film and will support it. I was not aware of the greater humanitarian angle and am glad to learn about this.
boyajian -- Thanks for the link. It is sad to realize that a 3,000-year old civilization, a distinct Christian nation, has been wiped out because Germany (and Great Britain) feared Russian advance towards the Middle East through Armenian-populated vilayets of the Ottoman Empire. Germans and the Brits gave tacit approval to the Ottoman Turkish savages to exterminate the whole race in order to prevent Russians from gaining access to the oil-rich Middle East. But I agree with you: at least Germans could find courage and repent to the Jews and, it seems to me, the time is nearing for both Germany and the Great Britain to officially recognize the Armenian genocide. What the Turks are incapable of doing, and I have very strong doubts that they ever will be capable of, is to admit crimes, repent, and apologize to the victims. Some commentators here suggested that repentance should come from within Turkey. Hmm... I tend not to buy this knowing the Turks and their snakelike ability to avoid acceptance of guilt. I believe that Turkey will repent only when it's brought to its knees by the efforts of the international community.
To Boyajian,
Much thanks for your encouragement on the film and for all your posts on this forum - thoroughly enlightening and inspiring. I especially appreciate that you and others are very diligent to consider the Armenian Genocide in all it's complexity. For while the facts of the Genocide are certainly clear, the intentions of those involved are often vague at best. One of the motivations for this film is to get into the mind of, for example, Talat Pasha, e.g. what drives a man to commit such horrible acts? In contrast the question can also be asked, what is about a man that causes him, as in the case of the Turkish hero of the film, to do what is right despite the cost of his own life? Importantly the film also deals with the experiences of Armenians caught in the middle of genocidal horror. Who do they trust, and why?
Thanks, everyone, for all of your comments, which I will have to catch up with! Gayane, thank you for your kind words!! Shad shnoragalyem ... Unfortunately, my Armenian is very poor, practically limited to baby talk! My parents spoke Armenian at home when they didn't want me to know what they were talking about ... unfortunately! It's such a beautiful language, I have taken a class but did not have many people in my life at the time to practice with.
David, have you read Balakian's latest, "Armenian Golgotha" for your film? The eye witness four-years-long experience is there in detail (according to him -- I have the book but have not started), including the slow breakdown of Komitas who was with him.
Thank you everyone again, I have to read back now -- many comments!
PS Last night I met an Armenian woman who was originally from Istanbul. I told her about our discussions here, and with AB and AB's differing perspective from ours. She said that Armenians posting from within Turkey are not really free to say other things. As we have seen with other sympathetic Turkish people posting here, 301 reaches far into their homes and individual computer postings anywhere. So, AB, I understand there are things you can say and cannot say, and the same goes for all Turkish people. My new friend whom I met last night was completely dismissive of the possibility anyone can speak freely, and reminded me that we only have each others' word for identity and even place of origin. However, other Turkish people posting here have clearly indicated they don't really have the ability to express fully any sympathy ... I just want to tell them that I understand this and they have conveyed themselves clearly. I don't want anyone to suffer for nothing!
In response to FERHAT.
Jew;a person whose religion is Judaism;descendant of the ancient Hebrews.this is when people get them confused with the ancient Khazar's converted to Judaism,a none Semitic Jew;(get into it is educational)they are not even welcomed in Palestine as you can see i did not say (Israel)also get into goggle a(the life of an American Jew in racist Marxist (Israel?)Written in 1985 by Jack Bernstein read this article it will enlighten you.
To Janine,
Actually the impetus for the film came from a Peter Balakian talk about his book, Armenian Golgatha, in LA that I attended about a year ago. It's a long story, but essentially a descendant of one of Komitas's select students approached me after the talk about making the film. As it goes, what emerged was a film that focuses on Komitas, but also sheds insight into other Armenian notables during the time of the Red Harvest (starting on April 24, 1915). Much of the source material for the film comes from Krikor Balakian's memoirs, i.e. Peter Balakian's book Armenian Golgatha. What Balakian writes is not only tragic, but also fascinating in it's exploration of the depths of man's depravity as well as the heights of self sacrifice.
Hye, NU, a learning institution has dropped the ball. Evidently not any knowledge of world history/world Genocides is available within it walls.
Monetary gains shall be their goal... truths... denied.
World archives, American Ambassador Henry Morgenthaw eyewitness accounts, missionairies eyewitness acccounts, and more shall not have been
accessed within the NU walls - thus NU has dropped the ball and cannot be amongst those who seek to end the cycle of Genocides... Humans violating humans...
Murders, rapes, all crimes are pursued in the civilized nations and all efforts are made to find the guilty and pursued until justice is served.
NU, it appears hears the word GENOCIDE (which applies to the elimination of the innocents) still today, 2010, in Darfur - yet no justice need be applied when there is a Genocide - thus the perpetrator is the 'winner' and all the innocents are
the 'losers'... Why?
David -- I will support making of the film using the weblink you provided. Thanks for your efforts.
does anyone know what time and the date this event was held? i think Northwestern owes Armenians an apology!
To CDEFG,
I hundred percent agree with you. Turkish Republic is born from the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. It is not its continuation, on the contrary! I also wonder why the Turkish government rejects the crimes of the Ottoman Empire.
Regarding validity of Lausanne or Sevres treaty we can debate for days, we can still not come to a conclusion.
Regarding the ratification of the protocols, Azeri issue has nothing to do with Turkish-Armenian protocol. Having said that, I do not think it is idiotic, because obviously Turks have a sympathy for the Azeris and Turkish politicians do not want to hurt the feelings of the Azeris. But I can tell you sooner or later the ratification will come.
To Janine,
I learned English in high school in Switzerland.
During Ottoman Empire the Greek population was not as Heavy as the Armenian one. And also what you are saying is not very logic. You are saying that Northern Africa should not be Greek because it was not heavily populated by Greeks, whereas Smyrna was heavily populated by Greeks therefore it should belongs to Greeks.
To Janine again,
I cannot comment on the Armenian woman from Istanbul. The only thing which is coming to my mind is that your lady friend is one of the paranoid old timers. I personally do not fear any persecution because of article 301 on the internet, on the street, or when talking with people. There are a lot of Armenian from the Diaspora which are coming to Turkey for various reasons. Have you already talked to them? Did they tell you that people in Turkey were fearing persecution? The only way you will be convinced will be for you to come to Turkey to see it with your own eyes.
I urge interested people to research Mr. Kirlikovali, the president elect of the assembly of turkish american associations. The web is full of viciously racist statements by him against Armenians and Mexicans.
I ENDORSE MSHECI's FIRST POST,ADDING THAT PRIOR TO THE INT'L COMMUNITY,THE MAIN TWO HAVE TO SUPPORT OUR CAUSE,U.K AND U.S.
DROPPING THEIR HERETOFORE LENIENCY TO GREAT TURKEY.OTHERWISE WE HAVE TO PURSUE WHAT IN EXTENSION TO MSHECI'S, I HAVE THIS TO SUPPLEMENT.WE HAVE TO LOOK FOR ALLIES OR AT THE VERY LEAST SUPPORTERS OF OUR CAUSE IN SMALL AND MIDDLE SIZE COUNTRIES/STATES-THUS NOT GIVING UP PURSUIT OF OUR CASUE UNTILL SUCH TIME ,WHEN THE OTHER TWO ALSO BY AND BY LEAN OVER TO OUR CAUSE. THE FILM IN QUESTION-UNFORTUNATELY- IS UNKNOWN TO ME.I HAVE BALLAKIAN TWO BOOKS ONE THE BLACK DOG OF DESTINY(OR ANOTHER WORD) and the tigris is burning...book that I would suggest be -script written of firstly_IS '" m a m i g o n " by Jack Hashian-now deceased..
IF THAT FILM IS MADE OUT OF THAT BOOK-IT WILL SURPASS THE JEWSIH "SCHINDLER'S LIST" ...JUST BORROW AND READ THE BOOK FROM LIBRARIES -IT MUST BE OUT OF PRINT...NONE LEFT...OR PERHAPS IN ONE OF THOSE BOOK-SELLING LARGE STORES..
HE ....MY WRIT JUST POPPED BACK THAT IT IS DUPLICATE-THAT IS MY POST.IT IS NOT..I ONLY TRY TO POS IT...
G.P
Great insightfull article. This tells me that Turkey is going to spend a lot of money on promoting its culture to white wash the Genocide and its mass murdering population's mentality. It is quiet the opposite of that blundering **** Sarkisyan said occured.
Who do you believe?
To Garo:
I agree, this is indeed the right response...
To Anonymous #2:
I wonder if Israel and Israel's Policy toward a certain population is not to blame for some of the issues between Israel and Turkey? From your post it seems the problems between Israel and Turkey are solely due to anti semitism of Turkish politicians...
Hi,
Why most of people talks like official goverment spokesman in here. Dont you fed up from official history. I beilive that all official history is liying, in Turkey, in the USA, İn Armenia, in France, etc... We must belive the memories, because they are real and they are really painfull.
Dear friends you will see a few movies from Turkey about 1915, in near future, you will surprise like Hrant Dink's funeral ceremony. Right now in Turkey in everyday and everywhere people are thinking and talking about 1915 some of them say 'it was genocide' some of them say 'thousands of innocent Armenians died but it was not genocide'.
Best wishes from istanbul
Dear Ara,
Thanks for the comments. But, I disagree with you with regards to your determinations about Turkey. The official unemployment rate is %13 and and below poverty is %18 (according to UNDP) But, I advise you to take into consideration the current global economic situation. No coutry, Russia and USA included is immune from above normal unemployment and below poverty rates. (In Russia and USA figures are around %10.)
Russia's artificial growth has been due to the past oil prices and Putin's presidency. And Russia has its own internal problems. Your ominous prophesies about Turkey can well occur in Russia. The population in Russia is declining. Drinking is a big problem. Current popularity of Putin is in decline. Chechen problem is persistent. The artificial oil bubble has already burst after prices fell. The same miracles that you expect happen for Turkey may well happen to Russia too. And so on.
As for the US, I disagree with you too. The US can not disregard Turkey's importance whatsoever. Turkey is indispensable. Last time it did in March, 2003, when Turkey's sensitivity about the invasion of Iraq was not taken into consideration, it cost US thousands of its soldiers in Iraq. 75% of the logistic to Iraq goes through Incirlik. No other base can replace Incirlik. If it was the case, the US would have already done that.
I would wait some couple of decades to expect a friendly administration in Iran. Such a change would not come without a major collapse of this country, which renders it not a feasible candidate for the US.
The competition for sphere of influence is not between US and Turkey but between Russia and USA. Therefore the US will always support Turkey against Russia, although Russia and Turkey are in good terms with regards to trade.
US understood that, for example, how the Israeli policies have damaged its interests in Mid East. Therefore, I am watching the paradigm shift in this regard. Washington keep rebuking Tel Aviv. But I am aware that US and Israel are still allies.
I am not naive to assume that the US has lost its ability to intervene in the world events. It has the power but that does not mean it will necessarily utilize it. the American public opinion and world is not ready for another military adventure by the US. and will not be any time soon. For example, I would expect Washington to strike Tehran or at least support Israel to do this. but America vehemently rejects a military option.
In brief, Turkey is important in the region, has always been and will always be. This is the nature of international politics. With its 75 million population, strong army, and growing economy, noone can deny that Turkey has become a regional actor.
Turkey's importance for Washington will once again be proven on April, 24.
Dear brother Joseph,
Please read what i wrote to Ara. There are some references to your points.
Moreover, Azerbaijan does not have the luxury to deny Turkey as its ally. no matter what happens Turkey and Azerbaijan will remain allies.
Yes, and Jews, Gypsies, Poles and other victims of the Nazi should say prayers and feel the pain of Germans/Nazis killed in the Dreden bombings. Ridiculous.
AB - you wrote:
During Ottoman Empire the Greek population was not as Heavy as the Armenian one. And also what you are saying is not very logic. You are saying that Northern Africa should not be Greek because it was not heavily populated by Greeks, whereas Smyrna was heavily populated by Greeks therefore it should belongs to Greeks.
Honestly, I would have to check statistics before I agree to that. There were many Greeks all over Turkey, in many regions. And you are again twisting what I have said. First of all, I take issue with the notion that ethnic cleansing and genocide can be called "liberation." Secondly, Northern Africa has nothing to do with our discussion, although it was once a part of ancient Greece. But North Africans did not treat Greeks and others as the Ottomans did. The Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were those subject to the same problems the Armenians were, under an oppressive yoke of taxation and lack of rights. I said, actually, that all of Turkey would have been better off if Greece won that war, and I believe that. Furthermore, the Greek/Turkish war happened at the end of WWI, after Turks had already been genociding Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek population. NO comparison to anything remotely suggestive of Northern Africa. It is you who are making spurious arguments, committing every logical fallacy, which again leads me to believe you are either kind of not as smart as I thought or perhaps you are doing the usual -- you are here just arguing for Turkey in any twisted way possible.
Then you wrote:
I personally do not fear any persecution because of article 301 on the internet, on the street, or when talking with people.
Well again, this has to be disingenuous. The woman has close ties to the Istanbul community and I believe her. Furthermore, Turks posting here (non-Armenians) have made it explicitly clear they cannot refer to the genocide as genocide even if they believe that because of 301. I also believe Pamuk's own words and Dink's about its use.
Hello, Shatagizoum
I will look for the book Mamigon by Hashian. Thanks for the suggestion.
I believe the film you are referring to can be found at this link:
To learn more about Red Harvest go to http://www.komitasthemovie.com.
I would not be so sure about modern day Turkey when trying to disassociate today's Turk and the Ottoman of 100 years ago. I see no change in attitude between the "Republic of Turkey" and the "Ottoman Empire" towards the extirpated population of Anatolia. And why should they? This will continue until the forces of evil from beyond stop kissing the boot and remove the oily stain from their lips.
Re Greek population of Turkey:
The population of Greeks from Turkey (Asia Minor, Eastern Anatolia and Thrace) that were cleansed or fled and re-settled in Greece numbered altogether about 1.5 million. There were about 200,000 left in Istanbul in 1924 (who would mostly be cleansed in 1955 pogrom). That is in addition to the deaths from "deportation" and the same methods employed against the Armenians. The death toll in the Pontic region alone is estimated to be about 350,000 (from various scholarly sources) and that does not include Greeks from the whole of Anatolia. Quoting from Wikipedia: At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon is recorded as saying "a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died." Many Greeks fled not to Greece but to various parts of the Soviet Union, by the way, so they are not included in these numbers. So, all in all, your estimates of the Greek population being far smaller than the Armenian are not correct.
Dear Boyajian...
Thank you so much for the links to every movie that was discussed in this forum. I have started to watch the German version of the story about our Genocide.. I just wish they had English subtitles.. However, we don't need to be Germans to understand the overal story. Also, I am going to watch the movie that Gary M suggested.. I am preparing myself to watch that movie because I can already tell I am going to shed some tears... As always, you are an absolute greatness when it comes to writing your views and ideas.. Keep writing.....
My dearest Janine.. You are the delight of this forum.. Your commentaries bring such power and insights to our discussions that I cant imagine not reading them..I understand your dilemma about not being able to learn the Armenian language... It is hard when you don't have Armenians around to practice the language. However, if you ever need someone to practice with, you just let me know and I will communicate with you.. :) And great response to AB's commentary...
AB,
As I said before, and I am saying it again.. (you may ignor my comments.. I am ok with that..)... your views have been disqualitified by many already.. stop embarassing yourself... and when you start believing in yourself as an Armenian (from what you have told us.) and admit that what you represent and what you are saying is nonsense by simply protecting what Turkish govt taught you for years, maybe then we will take you seriously.. When you finally decide to search for your Armenian soul that stands for justice, truth and humanity, amongst many layers of fear and wrong teachings that accumulated in you over the years, we may then take your words seriously.... Until then, please don't embarass yourself any more..
Dr Deranian, we are waiting patiently to see the movie Red Harvest... I truly appreciate the fact that you and your team took the burden and hard work to make this story a reality... not only teaching the history of the Armenian Genocide as it was but also injecting the human touch, the Turkish hero who put his life in danger to do the right thing.. I bow to those Turks who have done that for my ancestors and are doing it to this day.. THey are our true modern day heroes... If we did not have Article 301, we would have a huge tide of these heros emerging without fear to tell their story and separate them from the murderous Turkish govt... I pray to God that our Lord will protect these individuals and give them strength and perserverance to do what is right... God Bless them..
Dear Darwin,
I am afraid I have to agree with you.. Even though we have selected individuals who stand up for what is just and true (Turkish heros), the Turkish Govt is no different than the Ottoman Empire. According to AB, the people on the street are nothing like what their ancestores were yet we have not heard a peep from any of them to this day... All we heard is silence... I wonder why? AB... any idea why your people on the streets, the regular citizens are silence about this? Could it be because of Article 301 or could it be because they don't know the history and don't think the Armenian Genocide happened?.. What would you say about that?
I will be marching April 24th.. Hopefully that this year, our combined efforts and unity will make a difference.. This year will be one of the loudest and important years the world has ever seen..
Gayane
To Janine,
Traite de Sevres was the dismantling of Ottoman Empire which had lost the war against the allied forces. Anatolia was divided between Greeks, Italian, British, French and Armenians. What does the Independence War through which the allied forces (The countries above) were pushed has to do with ethnic cleansing? What did you expect, Adana to remain French or Antalya Italian?
Regarding your lady friend I cannot comment on what she says. I repeat what I said you should talk to people from the Diaspora who are coming to Turkey and get their feelings.
You give the lamest reason to vote for somebody. Your real answer should be “Vote for Tarkanian because we are the same color and we want to make sure we offend a huge ally of the United States for something that happened to us during WW1.”
Please do not offend a real Republican like Scott Brown by trying to compare him to a liberal like Danny Tarkanian. Tarkanian is on record for being anti-2nd amendment and for donating money to other liberals.
To AB,
I don't know you but as a Turk living in Istanbul, I don't usually express any of my opinions related to the genocide or related to politics when it opposes majority's. None of my friends who share the same ideas with me like to discuss anything in public or on Internet. This is partly because knowing anything is possible here and partly because I met some ultra-nationalists and they scared me badly.
Dear Janine...the population of Asia Minor/Anatolia in 1914 was roughly 10 million, which was approximately equally divided between Armenians, Greeks, Turks and Kurds. Most Armenians lived in the eastern vilayets (2 million of them), where they had been for many thousands of years. Of course, there were also other, smaller groups, but in rather small numbers. The other regions of the Ottoman Empire at that time amounted to only about 8 million, giving the empire an overall population of about 18 million at that time.
istanbul,
where did you get this notion that everybody in Turkey is talking about the events in 1915?
apparently you are from the armenian populated district of istanbul. look at the newspapers, TVs in Turkey? how many of those who talk about it can you find? NONE!
look at the armenian newspapers and web sites. almost everything is about Turkey.
you are telling not the truth but what you want to see, which is not happening.
Ahmet,
Allow me to demonstrate a typically Turkish, that is, sly and snakelike behavior that we, Armenians, as well as other nations who came to know the Turks firsthand, abhor. In one of your posts you call Armenians ‘brothers’, although this sounds highly duplicitous, while in the other you insult us by stigmatizing the Holy Trinity that Armenians, as part of a two-billion strong army of Christian believers, worship, as nonsense.
Armenians know the Turks too well, and we know your insincerity, slyness, sham flattery, and cruelty. How can you call someone a brother when you know that your co-ethnics have brutally killed, mutilated, raped, burnt and buried alive millions of us? Despicable…
AB - You can't really believe that the ethnic cleansing and genocide going on in Turkey since 1915 and including all different Christian populations including the Pontic Greeks had nothing to do with Greek/Turkish war on the Greek side? Not to mention all the problems of being under Turkish occupation anyway for 400 years until they made their own revolution? I take issue with the term "liberation" and I still do. This is not anybody's idea of liberation except in an ultra-nationalist dream of "pure race."
Greeks fought a revolution again Ottoman occupation beginning in 1821 but it lasted decades as various parts of the Empire in which the native population was Greek were liberated from Ottoman rule... Crete for example was not finally free until after several revolutionary struggles and independence came around turn of the century and finally union with Greece in 1913. Of course Venizelos was a product of this struggle and was PM of Greece during WWI and Greek/Turkish war. Unfortuntely as usual foreign powers in the form of imposed royalty messed things up :-) But the point is this was a long struggle against Ottoman rule for the Greeks. My quoting statistics about Greek population in Turkey was a response to AB's post that Greeks in Turkey were far less than Armenians which was not true.
PS Thank you everyone for your comments ... (do not mean to ignore anybody)
At a fundraiser for Danny Tarkanian in the Boston area, the candidate was asked a question about Karabagh, and he said he did not know much about the issue.
That was the only question involving Armenian issues that he was asked. This is true. I am not making it up.
I hope Tarkanian wins the Senate seat, but I think that we Armenians are fooling ourselves that this will make much of a difference.
Has Tarkanian ever been active in the Armenian community? My sources tell me No. That is all I know.
The truth is, just about every Armenian American politician is afraid of coming out forerightly in favor of Armenian issues. Notice that our best friends in Congress are not Anna Eshoo or Jackie Spier, each of whom is 1/2 Armenian.
What does this tell you? That Armenian politicians are a bunch of liars, thieves, and cowards (like most politicians) who want our money and votes, after which, for the most part they tell us to get lost.
And yet I have rarely seen any Armenian American newspaper, or any Armenian for that matter, point this out. We're suckers, let's face it.
Frank Nahigian, what do you have to say about this? Be frank, Frank.
AB, when you were in High school in Switzerland did you learn any German? If so, please check the links I posted earlier to the German made documentary about the Armenian Genocide which aired on April 9, 2010. It is quite enlightening.
To SG:
Your response to AB may be brief in length but it is very powerful in essence. Thank you so much for raising a voice of reason from within Turkey. This is very important! I strongly doubt, based on cases of Orhan Pamuk, Hrant Dink, Elif Şafak, Perihan Magden, Ragıp Zarakolu, Rahîm Er, and many other prominent Turkish intellectuals, that freedom of speech exists at all in Turkey.
I can state openly in Armenia that the genocide of the Armenians by the Turks never happened. The only possible consequence will be that people will look upon me as a mentally retarded person, but I WILL NOT be prosecuted, tried, expelled, or killed for stating that.
Go ahead, AB, try to state openly that Turks carried out deliberates race extermination (read: genocide) of the Armenians and see what happens with you in your country. Just as a test to prove whether you’re right or wrong about 'freedom of speech' in your country.
Janine,
Do you realize what you are saying? You are saying that 1.000.000 Greeks have been killed based on former British Prime minister statement. Do you realize that even the Greeks are not claiming such a. Do you know better than the Greeks?
AB - You're twisting my words. I said (to repeat) that the Pontic Greeks alone suffered deaths which various historians agree on estimate to be 350,000. Certainly the estimates from the whole of Anatolia will be far higher. Essentially the numbers are not well-known - given that there are varying figures in terms of people who were deported and never known where they wound up, if they died, etc. According to Near East Relief reports at the time, btw, there were 5 million Greeks under Turkish rule at the beginning of the war.
Quoting from a website called Greek-Genocide.org:
"In the 4 November 1918 Ottoman Parliament Assembly session three Ottoman deputies raised the issue of the murder of 550,000 Greeks, the expulsion of 250,000 Greeks, and the death of 250,000 conscripted in Labor Battalions, indicating that one million Greeks had been victims to the Ittihadist policies. "
Asia Minor Greek population at turn of century was approx 2 million
Here are more quotations, from Wikipedia
According to George W. Rendel of the British Foreign Office, by 1918 "... over 500,000 Greeks were deported of whom comparatively few survived."In his memoirs, the United States ambassador to the Ottoman Empire between 1913 and 1916 wrote "Everywhere the Greeks were gathered in groups and, under the so-called protection of Turkish gendarmes, they were transported, the larger part on foot, into the interior. Just how many were scattered in this fashion is not definitely known, the estimates varying anywhere from 200,000 up to 1,000,000."
Now you may believe that no American or British foreign service officer ever tells the truth, even to their own government, but I think that historians have already proven this argument false where the Armenian Genocide is concerned. And these are the same people reporting what they witnessed.
BTW the murder and persecutions of the Greeks started a year before the April 24, 1915 date from which we date the Armenian genocide, in 1914.
Here is the fuller quotation from Wikipedia on deaths of Greek in Anatolia (this is in addition to the deaths of Pontic Greeks)
Constantine G Hatzidimitriou writes that "loss of life among Anatolian Greeks during the WWI period and its aftermath was approximately 735,370."[30][31]. At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon is recorded as saying "a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died." Edward Hale Bierstadt states that "According to official testimony, the Turks since 1914 have slaughtered in cold blood 1,500,000 Armenians, and 500,000 Greeks, men women and children, without the slightest provocation."
Really, history is all around. BTW I have read about a book published in Turkey co-authored by Dadrian and Akcam on the Courts Martial Trials in Turkey here:
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/04/07/dadrian-akcam-book/
Have you read this book? It may be enlightening
Vincent, if Israel and the Palestinians in the near future find a way to improve their relations, Turkey and Iran will no longer have a scapegoat; and they will be forced to deal with their internal problems, i.e., their relations with Armenians and Kurds.
I read today Israel is being careful not to sell arms to Turkey because it believes Turkey is becoming more Islamist. Pan-Islam may fail as pan-arabism failed because of nationalism. Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan each have their own national identity and problems.
Turkey may also have real or false fears that the USA and Israel are helping the Kurds and the PKK and that may be one reason for the strain in relations.
I am hoping that Israel and the Palestinians will be able in the near future to solve their problems; I am really confident that they will.
Turkey, Iran, Pakistan want to be a third bloc, a muslim bloc, equal to the West and the East. What about Iraq and the Kurds? What about Armenia? What about Egypt? What about Lebanon? What about Syria? What about Saudi Arabia?
What about the Palestinians? These all have their own national identities and problems.
How should the USA deal with Turkey, esp. if Turkey really is becoming more Islamist?
Well, at the least, I thank Armenian Weekly, YaLibnan, Hurriyet, and all the other publications for their articles which I read to keep up-to-date on the news. Hopefully, this means of communication on the internet will speed up the peace and reconciliation efforts, for Israel and the Palestinians at least, if not for the other countries who ban the internet and thereby hinder peace efforts.
If Israel improves its relations with the Palestinians, will that necessarily mean that its relations with Turkey will be better? Turkey is still anti-semitic as far as I know.
Anahit, thanks for expressing so well what others have been trying to point out.
Freedom of speech in Turkey is an illusion. Sometimes controversial statements are tolerated there in order to support the illusion, but in the end, the game is exposed by the existence of laws like Article 301 and the more subtle social pressure of fear of retribution from ultra-nationalists who seem to operate with little restraint.
There are some in Turkey who have begun to see past the illusion and want to move their country forward on the path to true democracy and respect for basic humanity (e.g., Taner Akcam, Orhan Pamuk, Hrant Dink, and more). However, (my opinion) the majority are so blinded by a desperate and false sense of pride over their perceived superiority that they are willing to accept distorted history and blatant lies as truth. It's a compensatory kind of pride because the truth really is pretty awful. I can understand the desire to minimize and deny evidence which exposes the lies. Like a person sick with paranoia who projects onto an external source that which originates within their own psyche, Turkey desperately attempts to soothe their guilty conscience by suggesting that others are lying about them and insulting Turkishness. (Insert scoff here)
This is not to say that there is nothing to be proud of if you are a Turk. On the contrary, I think there is. But it is lost in the shadow cast by the ghosts of millions who wait for justice and for their truth to be told.
When Turkey begins to honor its true heroes, those who resist the bigotry and hate, then it will begin to heal its sickness. Until then the "sick man of Europe" is in need of its daily medicine of truth and accountability from those brave enough to speak it.
Thanks to all who have encouraged me on this site. Janine, Gayane, Gary, David, Msheci, Anahit, SG, Darwin, Shatagizoum and even Karekin and AB; this dialogue is so important and I look forward to reading all your contributions.
AB,
You put a different emphasis on my comment that twists its meaning. I said that the Turkish Republic is the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, and not that the new republic is ‘born from the destruction of the Ottoman Empire.’ Modern Turkey is its continuation in the capacity of a successor state. Succession refers to the transfer of rights, obligations, and property from a prior state to the new one (the successor state) that includes overseas assets, such as embassies, monetary reserves, etc., as well as participation in treaties, membership in international organizations, and debts. Rules of succession of states are codified in the 1996 Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties, if you’re interested.
Regarding validity of Lausanne or Sevres treaty we can, indeed, debate for days and come to no conclusion because none of us appears to be an international lawyer. But one thing is undeniable. After the Treaty of Versailles of 1919, President Woodrow Wilson was charged by the Allies powers to draft the Armenian portion of the disintegrated Ottoman Empire, which he did. The portion has included historically Armenian provinces of Van, Bitlis, Erzerum, Diyarbekir (In Arm: Tigranakert), Kharberd, and Sivas (in Arm: Sebastia). President Wilson also added the Trabzon province to give the new Armenian Republic a sea access. This Arbitrary Decision bears the Great Seal of the United States of America and is still valid, because the Decision was not materialized as Armenia fell under the Soviet control in 1921. There is no other official document in the U.S. government that defines borders of Turkey than this Arbitrary Decision.
As for ratification of the protocols, in politics having sympathy towards anyone or desire not to hurt feelings of anyone have no value whatsoever. Armenians has overwhelming sympathy towards Armenians of Artsakh (formerly Nagorno-Karabakh), as this Armenian province was placed under the Azerbaijani control in the 1920s by the Bolshevik Soviet rulers, but, nevertheless, the government proceeded with signing and ratification of the protocols. Turkish politicians do not want to hurt the feelings of the Azeris? How lovely… This is why Turkey joined Azerbaijan’s blockade of Armenia and Artsakh by closing the borders with Armenia? This is why Turkish military instructors were training the Azeries during the Karabakh war? Or this is why Turkey supports Azerbaijan in the international arena?
If you want to find excuses not to ratify the protocols, you’ll find dozens of them. This, obviously, means that you have no intention to ratify them. Ratification may come if Turkey realizes that it has nowhere to turn, but you won’t do it by your own. Just like you’ll never admit your guilt and repent for exterminating the Armenians unless you’re brought to your knees by the international community. Your name is ‘Turks’…
Mr. Robert, which part of your brain is non-political? You had two paragraphs thought through your poor brain, and out of these two paragraphs, 1.5 of it was purely political propaganda.
Because of people like Peter A, two nations could not solve problems. Peter A and the like, throw up hatred everytime they talk. Then they blame Turks for being hate breeders.
PeterA, go read what you posted. it is full of slanders and hatred.
Bravo Dr. Haro,
Well said.
Haro jan, if I am not mistaken.. this Robert guy is a Turk (the other half brother of another Turk Ahmet who is putting his nonsense comments on every Armenian forum.. well at least that is the joke about them).. If this is the right Robert and I have a feeling he is, he is obsessed with Dashnaks and every single paragraph he writes, he mentions Dashnaks.. One would think Robert is in love with them..Sir, get used to the fact that many brilliant scientists, intellects, physicists, archeologist, are Armenians.. and you will see more and more of us...
Gayane
Ratification of the protocols by Turkey could come before April 24 if President Obama again sends a clear message that "G" is only the 7th letter of the alphabet. However, Turkey's strongest backer on this matter is buckling due to intense world wide pressure.
At least SG is honest enough to tell everyone how Turkish Govt is doing everything to shut everyone who speaks of the Genocide.. AB you should pay attention to SG's comments...
CDEFG, great commentary...
AB said:
Regarding the ratification of the protocols, Azeri issue has nothing to do with Turkish-Armenian protocol. Having said that, I do not think it is idiotic, because obviously Turks have a sympathy for the Azeris and Turkish politicians do not want to hurt the feelings of the Azeris. But I can tell you sooner or later the ratification will come.
AB you are contradicting yourself.. You are telling us that protocols have nothing do with Azeris, yet also stating that Turks are very symphathetic toward Azeris.. They do not want to hurt Azeris feelings.. what an idiotic statement to make... wooptidooooo... I am very happy about their concern, love and symphathy (do they even have all these characterisitics in them or are you just saying it to sound credible?); however they can be symphathetic by other means and leave our lands alone... Turks took much too much already from Armenians and now they are helping other muslim country to take the lands we WON back fair and scare? What a joke.....this matter along with the historic commission to try to murk the waterson the already proven Genocide is UNACCEPTABLE and will never be taken into consideration by any Armenian on this planet...Obviously you do not comprehend the intensity about these two matters which will put a stop on any protocols.. i dont' care how politically correct or manipulative the govt is...it will NOT HAPPEN..So keep on dreaming that the protocols will be ratified.. as long as these two issues are brought on Armenians, it will never be ratified... You have not replied to my question.. Are you Armenian or are you a Turk? Do you feel any connection to your history and roots??? I am asking this only because you claimed to have Armenian blood then you should not have a problem stating as such... It is one thing to be proud of the country you live in, but it is another to be true to your heritage and history... Just because you live in Turkey, it does not mean you have to accept and cover the wrong doings of the govt... Majority of the Armenians live around the world... we are citizens of many countries.. however, we remain Armenians.. no matter what...
Thank you
Gayane
To CDEFG
It is noted that this is not what you meant. Nevertheless, Turkey dissociated itself from the Ottoman Empire, as far as I am concerned the Republique of Turquie is a new beginning.
Regarding the treaties, I agree President Wilson was put in charge by the allied forces to draw the borders, the same allied forces which also signed the treaty of Lausanne 3 years later limiting the Turkish borders to Anatolia.
The Treaty of Sevres was so illogical that besides the Greek parliament, it could not get approval in any of the parliaments of the signatory countries. In fact France declares already in 1920 that it would not ratify this treaty, while Italians drew their army from Anatolia.
Above I used the word "limiting", because in fact the Kemalist armies who had fought the Independence war on all fronts (against Italian, French and British troops and also against the Armenians on the East front) had territorial claim on Iraq, Syria, Balkans, and Dodecanese Islands. Treaty of Lausanne was intended to limit Turkish claims. Allied forces (the same allied forces who had charged President Wilson 3 years ago to draw Turkish Armenian borders) was accepting the Turkish borders as they are today providing Turkey was passing outre on its other territorial claims.
The reason why the Wilsonian border could not be applied was not because Armenia felt under Russian control but because none of the allied forces believed in it and because Kemalists forces had started as of 1919 the Independence War pushing the Allied troops in Anatolia and Armenian troops in Kars, and most importantly because when the Treaty of Sevres was annulled and replaced by the treaty of Lausanne, the Wilsonian mandate had no longer any validity.
We can discuss during days on treaties, but treaty of Lausanne annulled and replaced the treaty of Sevres. This is not an opinion but historical fact.
Regarding the ratification of protocols may be I haven't explained myself clearly. I do not think any different than you. But I still think that one way or the other the protocols will be signed. Ratification of Turkey will come sooner than you think.
Armenian Weekly is indeed collaborating with the commenter Mr. Roberts. I had more lines in both of my comments, and the Weekly is sensoring and altering the meaning of my comments. I will need to contact one of the Armenian Weekly representative and talk about this. A continuation of such behavior will be publisized by me on several influential websites and blogs.
Armenian Weekly, DO NOT CUT MY COMMENTS!!!! I had nothing abusive as Mr. Robert's to be delibrately cut in my comments. All comments have been screen-shot and kept on my file. Please be careful here...
A portion of Robert's comments were deleted because he denied the Armenian Genocide. The relevant portion in Haro Mherian's post was also removed so that it does not seem as if he is putting words in Robert's mouth.
Mr. Mherian, instead of realizing that the comment was edited for his own sake, is threatening the Armenian Weekly for "censoring" his comment and accusing the Weekly of "collaborating with Robert"!
Mr. Mherian, yes, go ahead and attack the Weekly, a respected institution, and then accuse the Weekly with collaborating with Turks! I am surprised the Weekly even published your insulting and threatening comment. I wonder if anybody here owes an apology...
Hello Armenian Weekly Admin,
As long as I have you posting here, i would like to request the following:
I have noticed that many comments never reaches to my inbox. I only get to read them once I log into the forum to read the one comments I receive. Is this a bug or is this intentional? I hope to assume it is a bug.
I would like to request that any comment to the forums that I have subcribed to be sent to my personal inbox.
Thank you very much...
Gayane
Dear Gayane,
You are supposed to receive all comments following your post if you have selected on the "notify me" option. Thank you for pointing out the problem you were having. We will forward your comment to the webmaster.
Regards,
Weekly Admin Team
Armenian Weekly, thank you for clarification, but your answer does not address the situation of my first comment. There was a poetic and scientific line in my first comment that you cut. The line was very educative and very much related with this article. By cutting this part of comment, you have arose in me the doubt that your moderator has not read this article itself.
On the other hand, yes, you did the right thing by not putting on web the part of Mr Robert's comment where the word Genocide was in quotes and a clear statement of denial of the Genocide. However, all commenters of this article receive an email from you that had this comment intact. Therefore, your efforts have been annihilated by your poor comment messaging software system. The weakness of your technology is no excuse for being hijacked by a propaganda machine. Either eliminate your comment system all together or be careful in becoming an incubator for Turks and Turkish Propaganda.
Turkey's propaganda machine will not spare any efffort or money to fight the historical truth of the Genocide. BUT in the end the truth will prevail only with our efforts as a united nation. Turkey will eaver be able to deter our resolute
Narine, I may apologize to you and all commenters here. But if my apology defies the truth, then it will destroy my essence. I am a mathematician, true mathematicians don't lie. An apology is cheap to give, I can give as many as you want, but please don't make me lie by apologizing. Finally, Armenian Weakly did publish my comment, which has absolutely no insult at all (unless if the truth is an insult to you). They publish my comment, because they realized the enveloping problem, and decided that it's better to stick to the truth. This, I do appreciate and accept, but that does not mean, as a warning system, I should be put to silence. If they want to do just that, they can always turn the commenting section off, and I would be better off doing my daily work without being distracted with any article on world. Live carelessly, when the entire body of Armenian scientists and intellectuals are being eliminated by silence, because they dare to protest for the weaknesses of our “respected” News ports and papers.
Narine, I understand your pain when you see such situation, but only feeling the pain is not enough, you should teach them a lesson if you can do so. That makes the organization healthy and powerful, and not just “fear of respect” silence.
Essentially the subject of the Wilsonian treaty was "dropped" by the big powers because of the Soviet Union and the shift of world political structure to the Cold War. Turkey no longer shares the position it once had in that respect. Hence, protocols, etc.
When you re-read you previous posts in which you dared to call Christian ONE Godhead--the Holy Trinity--a nonsense, do please come back and apologize. And after that I'll drop my slanders. Sounds fair? Otherwise you'll be a Turk Ahmet and the like for me, whim we know too well...
Gee, now that you dashnaks have had a taste of your own medicine, you can't stand it, can you!! Over the years, Turks and Azeris attended conferences at U of Minn, UCLA and U of MI. The presenters included Balakiyan and Pappazian. When they projected an overhead map of what Armenia will look like after reparartions, one of the Turkish students (a single one) politely asked what kinds of reparations could the families of the massacred Turks, Azeris and so many other Moslems and non-Moslems could expect. Ever single Turkish and Azeri attendee (less than 20) were immediately removed by security and, unlike what happened at NW, they were NOT allowed to return!
Greetings, Ahmet –
I’m just wondering: do Turks know what repentance is? Being a Christian I’d love to know whether anywhere in the Holy Koran, in which your prophet urged believers to respect the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and not offend them, like you did? Seriously, I’d love to know if there are religious postulates and/or socially accepted behavior norms that acknowledge the notion of repentance. Could you refer me to any sura or a passage in the Koran, if you know of course, that calls the believers for repentance for their sins?
Thanks in advance.
N
AB,
Well, of course, Turkey would dissociate itself from the Ottoman Empire. Why would the Kemalist government want to put the new republic at risk by acknowledging that its predecessor-state has exterminated virtually all ancient civilizations inhabiting the country? Why would the Kemalist government or any consecutive Turkish government for that matter want to be at risk by associating itself with genocide of indigenous peoples and thus receive punishment in the form of material reparations and restitution of lands? Of course modern Turks would dissociate themselves from the crimes of their own Sultans and the Young Turks to avoid punishment. But guess what? It doesn’t matter whether Turkey associates or dissociates itself from the Ottoman Empire, because there is an international law that governs succession process, such as the Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties article, wherein Article 34(1) states that “all new states remain bound by the treaty obligations of the state from which they separated.” Even if you think that the Republic of Turkey is a ‘new beginning,’ there exists the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide to which Turkey has acceded in 1950, which obliges all countries to prevent and punish actions of genocide in war and in peacetime.
And my own hardball question is left essentially unanswered by you. If you think that Turkey, as a ‘new beginning,’ can easily wash its hands from the crimes of its predecessor-state from which it effectively and timely dissociated, why wouldn’t your government acknowledge the genocide of 1.5 million of Armenians that an Ottoman government, from whom the new Turkish republic has dissociated itself, has committed? Or, maybe, there might be international consequences for crimes against humanity irrespective of your association or disassociation?
I think we already came to an agreement that not ALL and not THE SAME allied powers signed the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923. I think we’ve agreed that although the Republic of Armenia assumed responsibilities on account of the transfer of the territories under the Treaty of Sevres, Armenia was not a signatory to the Treaty of Lausanne. A newly-formed state, the USSR, has signed the treaty, a state that ceased to exist in 1991 and the Republic of Armenia re-appeared on the political map. But you keep repeating the same distorted points that we’ve already discussed and, I believe, agreed upon.
May I ask what source you used for this controversial statement: “The Treaty of Sevres was so illogical that besides the Greek parliament, it could not get approval in any of the parliaments of the signatory countries. In fact, France declared already in 1920 that it would not ratify this treaty, while Italians drew their army from Anatolia.” In course of the ‘war of independence’, as you call it, but what is known to historians as Turkish re-occupation of territories assigned to their inhabitants by the Treaty of Sevres, Turks fought Greek, Armenian and French forces and secured a territory similar to that of present-day Turkey. The Kemalists developed its own international relations by the Treaty of Moscow and the Treaty of Kars fixing the eastern borders with Bolshevik Russia in 1921. Both signatories to these treaties were illegitimate: Kemalist regime was not elected and representative government of Turkey and Bolshevik regime was not elected and representative government of Russia. The outcome of Turkish re-occupation forced some of the former allies of WWI to return to the negotiating table with the Turks and in 1923 negotiate the Treaty of Lausanne, which recovered large territory in Anatolia and Thrace for the Turks. But the Republic of Armenia was NOT a signatory to that treaty.
I have no idea where your nightmarish idea about ‘none of the allied forces believed in the Treaty of Sevres’ came from? As well as where you got the idea that the ‘Treaty of Lausanne annulled and replaced the treaty of Sevres’ and that ‘the Wilsonian mandate had no longer any validity’? Nowhere in the text of the Lausanne Treaty could I find such a provision. The Wilsonian Mandate was never materialized because in 1921 the Republic of Armenia, for which the Mandate was primarily designed, ceased to exist as an independent state, and, I repeat, the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923 between Turkey, former WWI allied powers and the USSR. The USSR disintegrated in 1991 and, thus, the only valid treaty that defines the borders between Armenia and Turkey, and is SIGNED by official, legitimate representatives of Armenia and Turkey, among other signatories, is the Treaty of Sevres of 1920 which is based on the US Great Seal-affixed Wilsonian Award that never lost its judicial validity.
As for the protocols, I think Turkey will ratify them only if it’ll face recognition of the Armenian genocide by the U.S. government and/or world-wide recognition that is underway. Or, maybe, indeed, in order to prevent the genocide word being used in this year’s US President’s Annual Address to the Armenian People, Turks would hastily ratify them. But even if that happens, there’s no way that Armenians ever cease their recognition efforts all over the world. Make no mistake…
To :AB
As I said earlier, True Armenians must reject these unfair 'protocols'.
To: Gayane
Once again you have spoken loud and clear! It seems God has created the likes of you to tell it as it is! Thank you for being brave!!
To: Boyajian
Thank you, again, for your eloquent & to the point writing!
I think the protocols are another sign of big power meddling, their endless drive for oil and their pathetic response to anything Armenian for about 125 years. The protocols do not contain any bona fide guarantees for Armenia, and are slanted heavily toward the needs ot the west and its proxy states, Turkey and Israel. This is one of the biggest business deals on the planet right now, yet Armenia is expected to sit by and trade its history and security for an empty shell. We should all remember how Khrimian Hayrig was treated in the halls of Europe.....he left depressed and empty handed. No one can allow this to happen again, because the first truly azad and viable Hayastan in 700 years cannot be allowed to fail. That is the bottom line. Now, if the powers who are pulling the strings want to advance a proposal that will actually help Armenia and its people, then perhaps there is room to discuss an outcome, but until then, Pres. Sarkisyan is right to play his cards carefully and not sign anything under pressure.
To: CDEFG
Sometime soon, hopefully, AB, as well as many otehrs, will recover from this dizziness, and find his Armenian blood is far more precious than his trying to persuade us to think that Turkey is one who has the truth!
Thank you for your patience to attempt to teach him TRUTH! We all know truth sets us free.
AB: this is what Jesus said "Then you will know the TRUTH & the Truth will set you free" Did you learn German & watch the videos on YouTube? Or Is YouTube banned in Turkey?
G
I have to agree with Haro...
Gayane
Mersi Gary jan... always appreciate your feedback. I also watched "My Son Shall be ARmenian".. Very heartwarming and heartbreaking story.. I definintely shed tears watching the documentary... I shed tears because those survivors whose dream to return to their lands and rest in peace never happened... Hence, why i will fight as long as I can to make sure that our children do not grow up longing to put foot on our lands under someone else's government...they shall and WILL walk on the lands of our ancestors.... and it won't be "WERE" but "ARE" our lands.....
CDEFG... excellent response to AB...as always.. love your fierce responses...
Gayane
Admin,
I see that you've yet once again censored and deleted my posts! Your actions simply defy any words. I must be a huge threat to you all on the Board to warrant such actions! The last time I saw this type of cowardice was with the Vichey French government ( who were nothing more than puppets for the Germans in occupied France)!! Let me ask you all one question...Have none of you even have a semblance of an ethical soul? Or did you throw that into the trash with your conscience?!!
All of you should stop waisting your time
Your time is precious.
You cannot teach the unteachable.
From my experience I can say,
"If child's IQ is low.
Thy will get some training
But, can thy become professor of law?"
To CDEFG,
Before I comment your above post step by step, I would like to make the following statement to some of commentators on this site :
- Some have stated that "I am embracing the wrong cause" because I am in favor of the Protocols. It was further stated that the Diaspora rejected the protocols. My opinion may differ from the ideas of the Diaspora, and it does not mean that I am wrong.
-Some have stated that I am in "denial". May I know what am I denying? On the contrary, I have clearly stated that crimes committed should not go unpunished and that Turkish Government should recognizes mistakes its ancestors committed.
-Some have stated that I am "brainwashed". What idea that I am defending make you think that I am brainwashed. On the contrary, I think that commentators claiming that I am brainwashed are themselves brainwashed. From the young age they are taught that Turkey=Bad. Well sorry if I do not agree with you.
-Some have stated that I am protecting what the Turkish Government taught me. What have I been protecting?
-On the territorial claim issue, my view differs from some(most) of the commentator's views. Armenia was conquered some 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.
CDEFG, on your comments to my post....
Haro, I can't help saying you're daydreaming. What makes you think that Turkey will give up even a square mile of its land in the first place? I advice you to lower your expectaitons. :)
So, let's ask...how many of those who are pushing the fantasy that eastern Anatolia should be returned to Armenians would actually move there, buy a farm and start living as their ancestors did 100, 500 or 2000 years ago? I trust that most of you haven't even moved to Hayastan yet. In America, war mongers who have never fought in a war but constantly push for war are called 'chicken hawks'...these are people who are too afraid for their personal safety, but are very willing to advocate war for others...maybe we need a more descriptive nomenclature for those who have never stepped foot in Turkey or Armenia, yet feel they have every right to dictate how they function or that they have all the right answers. Any suggestions?
AB
You're a great provoker,
Do you want to Turkify Us?
We're born free we will live free
Even in an arid desert
Under the strong sun
Without green trees,
And able to teach deniers
What a real democracy means.
If you know Turkish,
Remember their proverb
That says, “The life turns like a wheel”
So let us be pessimistic to reach the impossible
And let the wheels turn to where the justice exists .
Let truth invade and abolish invaders
who wanted to abolish us and could not accomplish.
We are living the Internet Century,
If they invaded us 500 years ago
By their scimitars
The Internet can invade them
And abolish their aggressive 'cruel genes'.
It was less than a month ago
When Mr. Erdogan said, ( March 17, 2010)
"I will throw all Armenians out .
"
Now the world seems shocked by his speech.
Turkey will be divided soon between Kurds and Allowes
And then Armenians will achieve their dreams.
Anatolia will return to thee original ancestries.
Written Instantly
"Provovation can lead to creation"
Armenia was conquered some 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors
There is such a thing as the right to self-determination, the right to be free of certain kinds of oppression, and the international law that protects civilians and outlaws abuses of power. Of course international law may be ineffective in enforcement. But your attitude says that every big power can do whatever it wants, genocide is nothing -- if you insist that territories cleansed and genocided are fairly gotten. The Republic of Turkey is abusive in this respect and with respect to aggression on its neighbors -- especially Cyprus which is illegally occupied and has been forcibly settled with Turks from the mainland in order to change the facts on the ground. The properties are still stolen, people are still cleansed, aggression still unacceptable. It comes from the mentality that somehow "conquering" justifies everything in and of itself. Recently there are elections in Turkish occupied Cyprus (now that it has been forcibly filled with settlers via the Turkish government), but for the majority of the time it has been occupied all democratic institutions were halted. The Turkish Cypriot native population has been unhappy under this rule as well, preferring independent Cyprus, under which they had more rights.
And, under this mentality, every year Turkey continues to make provocations against its neighbors and around the Greek islands. Last year, a Greek plan crashed over Crete in one of these idiotic skirmishes. But they happen every year, especially in the summer. They are clearly violations of international law, but Turkey commits them every year due to this mentality that once they conquered, they owned -- even though the native language of all inhabitants is Greek and always has been.
correction to my post above: plan = plane
"once they conquered" (meaning their ancestors)
To CDEFG,
What you are stating is in historical distortion. Are you claiming that Kemalist government dissociated itself from the Ottoman Empire to hide crimes committed. This is a pure invention. If you have any supporting historic documents please let me know which ones.
Regarding your "hard ball question" I have already replied to you. I also ask myself the same question you are asking me. In my view, the taking responsibility is going to come very soon. And the protocols will accelerate it!
I never said that Armenia was present at the signing of both protocols. But as nobody from the allied power asked Turkey its opinion when splitting its territory between allied forces, nobody asked Armenia its opinion when taking back the illusion of an independent Armenia. This is a sad reality!
Regarding my sources it is mainly from my personal knowledge (not what I was thought by the denialists), and as supporting documents you can look at wikipedia which talks about most of the ideas I am defending.
To Janine,
You are distorting what I am saying. I did not say one word of what you are saying above.
Besides what does the plane crash over Crete has to do with what we are talking?
You are mixing everything! Your last paragraph is the peak of your mixed ideas. As I said above, since for you Turkey=bad there is nothing I would do or say which will make you consider other views. Perhaps you should take Karekin advice and start by visiting Turkey. Then you should go to Eastern Anotolia and see if you like it. Who knows maybe you will not even like it there!
Listen, AB:
Turkey’s invasion of a sovereign state of Cyprus, a full-fledged member of the United Nations, was put into motion in 1974, which makes it, as of now, 36 years ago. If you think that 500 years after the Turkish conquer of indigenous Armenian lands does not give the right to Armenia to claim territories, does just 36 years after the Turkish occupation of Cyprus island give the Greek Cypriots the right to claim their territory back?
You, the Turks, have always been and will always remain, nomadic tribes with nomadic psychology of occupiers and scorchers of other nations’ lands. But what you will, eventually, understand is that for every conqueror and illegitimate possessor of the lands of others there has always been and will always be a stronger power or a set of circumstances that would teach you a lesson that no conquer goes unpunished. And I think that in the modern times it will be the Kurds who will be such a strong power…
I am glad all my friends and family from Turkey chose to attend UCLA and Stanford instead of Northwestern. At least UCLA offers courses on Armenia and there are many well known Armenians in California who teach about the Armenian genocide; where are the courses or teachers at Northwestern who offer courses on genocide studies and/or the truth about the Armenian genocide? If they offered such a course, would they be willing to stand up to Turkey and teach the truth?
This poem is for tyrants who think they can live forever
Those lost humanitarian genes.
“Life Roles, Like a Wheel”
A person called AB in the Armenian weekly wrote,
“500 years paced since Turks invaded Armenia”
AB, Ahmad and others...!
You're a great provokers,
Do you want to turkify Us?
We're born free we will live free
Even in an arid desert under the strong sun
Without shades of green trees.
And able to teach deniers
What the real democracy means.
If you know Turkish,
Remember their proverb
That says, “Life roles like a wheel”
So let us be pessimistic to reach the impossible
And let the wheels turn to where the justice exists.
Let truth invade and abolish invaders
Who wanted to abolish us and could not accomplish.
We are living the Internet Century;
If they invaded us 500 years ago
By their scimitars,
The Internet can invade them
And abolish their aggressive 'cruel genes'.
It was just a than a month ago
When P. Rajab Endogen said (March 17, 2010)
"I will throw all Armenians out".
The literates of the world seem shocked by his speech.
Turkey will be divided soon between Kurds and Allowes
And then Armenians will achieve their dreams.
Anatolia will return to thee original ancestries.
April 20, 2010
AB and Karekin, glad to see that you guys are still here discussing.
To AB, I may suggest that you are allowing yourself to be overly influenced by the powers that be in Turkey but I never suggested a lack of intelligence on your part. You clearly have knowledge, however in my opinion you twist the words of others and have a hard time accepting the idea that the "facts" you have gleaned from your "history" lessons have been tainted. You may say the same about me, but I am glad we both agree that Turkey must admit to its crimes.
I wish you were not so willing to see the ancestral homelands of the Armenians remain in the hands of those who stole it. 500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people and then claim our resources, wealth and cultural artifacts as their own. Turkey not only denies our past but it stole the future of millions. Is this really that easy for you to accept? Is this the legacy your ancestors would have you accept? Is this the world you believe your creator intended? A world where the aggressor wins because of over-powering strength and morality be damned.
The world has evolved in these 500 years and so should we humans; especially with respect to how we treat one another, the basic rights of fellow human beings and the responsibilities of states and people-nations toward one another. If we can flush toilets, turn on light switches and take medicine to cure our diseases; all things that didn't exist 500 years ago, should we really accept an archaic concept like " divide and conquer" as still valid today?
Reparations will be a difficult and complex issue but that does not mean we should not work toward a just resolution. You are in a position to help bring a good resolution and to change the world. We in the diaspora have as many divergent views as those of you in Turkey but we still need to come together on the side of truth and justice. Put fear and social pressure aside and embrace your inner "Hrant." I wish you peace and a clear conscience.
The USA is made of diverse populations; it is not homogeneous; and it is no longer in vogue to americanize everyone. UCLA, for example, teaches language and history courses for everyone, including Armenian, Persian, Jewish, and even Turkish. Everyone is an equal citizen under the law.
I find the California universities to be very interesting because of the variety of interesting courses they offer.
Also, California hospitals, like the Ronald Reagan Hospital in L.A. get an "A" rating, while the Northwestern Hospitals are "C+."
Stanford also has the William Saroyan collection.
Maybe that would be interesting for the Armenians around the world to know.
Meanwhile, in Turkey, renowned Turkish intellectuals urged to get together in Istanbul and mourn for 1915 victims of Armenian Genocide on April 24, 2010.
Their statement reads: “In 1915 Turkish population was estimated at 13 million with about 2 million Armenians in Frakia, Aegean Region, Adana, Malatya, Van, Kars, Samatya, Sisli and other places. They were our friends from the blocks: our tailors, jewelers, shoemakers, millers, classmates, teachers, officers, soldiers, MPs, historians and composers. They were our akin neighbors, facing same challenges as we did. They were displaced since April 24, 1915 and we lost them. They are no more with us. The majority is gone, not even their grave sites are known. But our heart sores for 95 years for that pain and great catastrophe. We call on all Turks feeling this pain deep in the heart to pay tribute to 1915 victims, wearing black, silent and with lighted candles and flowers. As this pain is OUR pain. This is our sorrow. So we meet April 24 at 7:00 p.m. local time in Taksim square of Istanbul.”
The statement was signed by scholar Baskin Oran, lawyer Fethiye Cetin, historian Nese Duze, Chairman of Human Rights Association Ozturk Turkdogan, Turkish MP Ufuk Uras and others.
My sincere thanks to all on this post for you encouraging words in regards to the film, Red Harvest, that my associates and I are working on. I especially appreciate the views expressed that we as Armenians are open to an Olive Branch approach, so to speak, with the Turks at least as far as films go, i.e. clearly portray the horror of the Genocide while also emphasizing the role of good Turks in doing what they could to mitigate the circumstances.
I also wanted to mention, that while my current schedule does not permit extensive writing on this post, I have thoroughly enjoyed the discourse here. What's clear to me is that despite the contradicting opinions, what's being shared on this post is generally intelligent and passionate. For example, the discussion about Wilsonian Armenia, vis a vis the treaties of Sevres and Lasaune, is absolutely fascinating, and points to the need to understand such history in light of the Protocols.
The commentaries also make point that I believe (apologies if I'm assuming to much) Karekin is making, i.e. we need to tread carefully as our beloved Armenia, an independent state after so many centuries, is right in the middle of the biggest game in town, OIL. As Karekin emphasizes, the big powers are in this game for their own interests. The question it seems to me is, how can Armenia optimize it's own interests relative to others, including and perhaps most importantly, Turkish interests. For example, the biggest population center that is closest to historical Western Armenian is, big surprise, Yerevan. How do we make the most of that fact? I have been to both Western and Eastern Armenia and can say from my limited perspective, it's complicated to be sure. Nevertheless, there is much we can do to build on what we already have, to further the Armenian Cause.
Karekin, forgive me for this clumsy analogy, but you remind me a bit of the female partner in a traditional Armenia couple dance. You entice and rebuff, and circle and run, all the while playing with the power at your finger tips...
You do keep us thinking. I agree with your recent post on the protocols and the danger of Armenia being given a paper ladle at the negotiating table. We can't let this happen. Nor can we compromise the integrity of our small republic which is a mere remnant of what it should be.
As for your question regarding how many are willing to return to Asia Minor (not Anatolia) and live as their ancestors did; this is really a specious argument, isn't it? Who today lives as their ancestors did 100, 500 or 2000 years ago? Had our ancestors been left unmolested on their soil, I am sure that much would have evolved in their lifestyle. I would guess that with the Armenian characteristics of adaptability and intellectual flexibility, these now murdered Armenians would have embraced modernization in farming, medicine, industry and education. Please have more faith in your people and let your imagination go. I can picture the cell towers and TV stations and smell the ghoong wafting from the churches as I write.
As far as chicken hawks go... I do not seek or advocate a war with Turkey. I do not seek to shed one drop of Turkish blood (which shares much DNA with Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Arabs and even Jews). I, as many on this forum have expressed, do not hate the Turks. I can even envision a future of forgiven transgressions that develop into mutual respect and cooperation as neighboring nations. But to give up the dream of an Armenia having borders resembling something closer to the historically respectful vision of President Wilson; that I am not ready to do. At the very least, Armenians deserve an area of territorial self-determination within Asia Minor. Yes there will be difficult negotiations with the Kurds, but this doesn't deter me. Allow me my simple idealism. Right is right and truth is truth and persistence, patience and intestinal fortitude are all integral to revolutionary change. Laugh if you must. But don't ask Armenians to limit their possibilities based on pessimism borne of years of oppressive domination.
Regardless of your religious convictions, if you have ever witnessed the Holy Thursday Washing of the Feet service, you know the vision Jesus Christ had for His world. But while I am willing to "wash the feet" of my Turkish brother, I will never let those same feet trample me; a sin that taints Christ's vision. And don't distort the lesson of "turning the other cheek". We Armenians don't have a literal interpretation of the bible, but a literary one. All things are to be interpreted within their context and within the whole at the same time. A difficult and enlightening endeavor for those who seek to "raise their consciousness" as you recommended to another writer in a previous post of your own.
Armenian Weakly, As you can see, your action did not resolve the hijacking of your comments section as an incubator for Turkish propaganda. The warning I gave was a measured and well calculated procedure, but your moderator took upon her/him to belittle a strike of a mathematician’s paw. Thanks for your defeatalist action!!!!
Maybe, it is time that we listen to our mathematicians and scientists...
Can’t you get it: Erase all of Robert's comments from this page, since he proved himself a Genocide denialist in the segment that you did not post! That's how you resolve abuse, not by just cutting a piece. DENIALISM IS A CRIME!!!!
Cihangir,
Turkey will give up its land, you said? Give me one historical evidence, just a single one, proving that Bitlis, Van, Diyarbekir-Tigranakert, Sivas-Sebasitia, Erserum, Kharberd, Kars were ever originally Turkish before the Turks occupied these lands in the Ottoman Empire. Give me just a singly proof that the whole Armenian civilization inhabitting these lands was not wiped out in 1915. Give me a proof that these lands were not assigned to their rightful owners--the Armenians--by the Woodrow Wilson's Arbitral Award. Nothing is permanent in history, nothing is permanent in geography. Nation-states undergo changes and modifications due to a host of reasons. Noone here expects that Armenia will affect Turkish handover of our lands, there are many other factors--domestic and international--that can ultimately make this happen. Our expectations are not designed to conquer other peoples' lands as the Turks did. We want our own lands from which we were expelled and brutally massacred en masse. And we will never cease our efforts. EVER!
AB, the idea that conquered territories = end of story has come up repeatedly in our discussions. You needn't call the kettle black or repeat my words to you to "win" an argument. In fact, it's silly and something I therefore can't take seriously. I'm actually wondering about your age. Furthermore this notion of conqueror as de facto winner comes up repeatedly in discussions with Turks that I have encountered recently (also posted on this site and in our discussions) with respect to their perspective on the surrounding regions and the way the education system works. Even your notion of "liberation" reflects the attitude and is informed by this system of education and this embedded idea in the culture and psyche of the country -- not to mention its foreign policies.
Of course the hypocrisy of Erdogan's condemnation of Israel (especially the claims of genocide) is glaring. I wonder how many internally are free enough to think or to point this out? I am certain that some newspaper commentators must at least observe it, but I wonder if they say it.
As for the protocols, I think Armenia -- as a deliberately landlocked country (here we go back to the Wilsonian picture and what exactly has hurt Armenia as a whole) - will benefit from the open borders and diplomatic relations they call for. But Armenia has always had a policy of open borders and diplomatic relations! It is Turkey, on the contrary, which has maintained a blockade and refused diplomatic relations with Armenia. So, the protocols for the Armenian side introduce nothing new in terms of its policy, they just would ask the Turks to accept such policies reciprocally. Karabagh and the historical view of the Genocide were never intended to set pre-conditions, much as the Turkish side would like to use the excuse to implement such. And that's the reason they won't pass in the Turkish parliament, because Turkey is demanding these pre-conditions and as usual attempting to leverage aggression into diplomacy.
As for US and Russian etc interests, I have no doubt that open borders is their biggest need for various reasons, although I would like to hear more ideas about this. So far what I have heard is about interest for oil and war in Afghanistan (which by the way, Armenia has contributed to with support personnel such as transport drivers etc including in Iraq).
PS just to make it clear since apparently my point was not understood, the modern day aggression is simply a symptom of the mentality that might makes right. Conquered territory is always just up for grabs, never mind the inhabitants. It is reflected in the behavior and attitudes.
Sorry Boyajian,
You are twisting what I am saying!
Did I say that that 500 years of domination gives the right for comitting any crimes? On the contrary, you should treat nicely and honour your subjects.
I also agree a just resolution should be found.
AB, just a quick note: Wikipedia is not an entirely reliable resource for information on these issues because it has been compromised by parties deliberately trying to promote their own propaganda. I guessed that this was your resource from some of the things you have written. I recommend you rely on the writings of respected historians like Vahakn Dadrian among others.
To MSHECI
What has Cyprus to do with what we are discussing now. If you want we can start a new forum on Cyprus and believe me it will take pages of discussion.
Your last para is the usual chip talks to which I have been accustomed by some of the brainwashed commentators.
To Boyajian,
I read your comments with great pleasure. You are aspiring to a better world.
Unfortunately, the principles of "devide and conquer" is still valid today. In the past maybe it was with the strength of the sword today it is with economic power.
There is nothing you or/and I can do about it.
AB,
One should be very cautious to call other person ‘historical distorter.’ Everyone is entitled to have his or her opinion, but that doesn’t give you upper hand to stigmatize an opinion that differs from yours as ‘distortion.’
I could give you tons of supporting documents that exist in the secondary literature written by Armenian scholars, but since you’re, clearly, anxious and suspicious about anything that Armenians say, here’s a thorough analysis of Mustafa Kemal’s cleansing philosophy and its manifestations. Please see Erik J. Zurcher, “The Rise and Fall of Modern Turkey” in the Turkology Update Leiden Project Working Paper Archive for Turkology. University of Leiden Update, 2001. Please also see Section III: 'The Investigations and Prosecution of the War Crimes and Genocide' in your own Turkish author’s work “A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility” by Taner Akcam, Henry Holt and Company, NY, 2006.
Mustafa Kemal initially condemned the mass murders committed by his predecessors against the Armenians, but once his control of the republic was established, he acted to scrub clean the history and myths on which the republic was constructed. To cope with what he considered a blemish on Turkish nationalism and a disadvantage to becoming Europeanized, Kemal created institutes in the Turkish government whose sole function was to sanitize Turkey’s history. Rewriting the past to meet political and psychological ends became standard practice in the republic and is part of the legacy that Kemal bequeathed to his successor.
Erik Zurcher, a prominent Turkologist, says: ”All too often in the field of Turkology, we forget that the modern state of Turkey was built on ‘ethnic cleansing’ on a massive scale.”
Kemalist historians depict the republic as a new state forged by the hand of Kemal. However, many other, non-Turkish scholars, see the republic as an outgrowth of the Young Turk revolution and its crimes, with just some cultural evolution. Under the virtual dictatorship of Mustafa Kemal, much of the references to crimes committed in the Ottoman era were removed not only to shape a vision for Turkey that promised to be very beneficial for ethnic Turks, but also to avoid punishment, reparations and restitutions for those crimes. The republic that Kemal handed to the Turks in 1938 was considered a finished ‘new’ product. Deviation from Kemalism was and still is considered “straying from the path of the father.” Deviation became tantamount to treason, and laws, such as Article 301 of the Penal Code, were enacted.
You claim: ‘as nobody from the allied power asked Turkey its opinion when splitting its territory between allied forces, nobody asked Armenia its opinion when taking back the illusion of an independent Armenia.’ Turkey was an empire, a prison of indigenous nations that were enslaved for centuries and that struggled for national liberation from the Turkish yoke. That is why, as well as the fact that Turkey had lost in the WWI, was the reason that Ottoman Empire was split and noone asked for Ottomans’ opinion. And, please, hardly all of the territory in any empire is considered ‘its.’ World doesn’t see empire's territory as ‘its’ territory. World sees it as territory on which ancient inhabitants, such as Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians and many others, lived long before they were conquered by the Turks. Try to put yourself in our shoes, if you can, and look at what happened from the perspective of these ancient peoples.
As for Armenia, nobody could physically ask Armenia for its opinion in the early 1920s because: first, Armenian Question was delegated to President Wilson and he designed the Mandate fro Armenia; and second, by the time the Mandate was ready, Armenia was already Sovietized.
By the way, thank you for believing that Turkish government’s responsibility for the crime against the Armenians may come soon. I’m absolutely unsure whether the protocols will accelerate it, though. I think Turkey’s fear for widespread international recognition of the genocide will accelerate it. But thanks, anyway.
P.S. In the West we never rely on Wikipedia to cite it as a source. Wikipedia is the most controversial and unreliable source because anyone can alter it. Try to look in other sources, your own, for instance. One such source exists in the Turkish National Archives: it's the Turkish Military Tribunal Verdict of 1919 that acknowledged massacres of the Armenians as an act of race annihilation.
Robert,
What you have to say is not even half way intelligent.. so why are you upset about having your comments cut? I agree with Haro.. Weekly should have deleted all your comments all together.. at least they would have done a great deed for all of us who have to endure your stupidity...
Anyway... to resolve this matter fair and square... lets make sure to omit only comments that include but not limited to profanity, and Robert and his likes.. ok maybe not.. otherwise we won't have the joy of reading nonsense and be able to poitn it out to them..
Respecting one's opinion and allowing them to express how they see it fit (again without profanity) is the greatest rights we have in the United States... We are not leaving in Turkey..
Gayane
Greeks still today does not accept Turkish population in Western Mecedonia, Greece. People call themselves as Turks but greeks says NO. What is this....
Mubadele -exchange - between the Turkish and Greek government after wwwI and Greeks invasion of Anadolu in 1920s.
It was the Turkish empire which fell a part and divided in to many parts by the western powers. Turks always been here and will be here too. French, Brit, italians, Russians and Germans and europeans always used the Christian minority in Turkey against the ruler Turks.
You all portray Turks as devils, barbarians, killers and all the bad things.. That is your thoughts,,,
Turkish empire lost the war and paid heavily, lost of its population and soldiers in all areas of the empire.. Turkish people drove out the french, italians, russians, greeks , Australians, New Zealanders and Brits . Turks defended the territory and won at least this part. No one has anyu right to decide what Turkey and Turkish territory look like, NOT Wilson, Churcill, Curzon and Stalin. Please read what Stalin did to Turks in Georgia , crimea , Armenia..
If Turks are the occupiers then Armenians are too, americans are too, French devils are too, russians are too, Who else.. I will leave that up to you to find out...
people always finds out the realities one way or another...
Well, the historical reality is that for much of the last 3000 years, Armenians have lived under the rule of foreign powers and were only able to achieve true independence when external factors caused those powers to falter or crumble. These episodes are few and were not very long lasting. The Seljuks arrived about 1000 years ago, followed by the Ottomans about 600 years ago and Armenians achieved a workable symbiosis with both. But, in the late 19th C. the equation began to change yet again and this led to the demise of the Ottoman, as well as other empires of the day. As they say, when elephants fight the grass gets trampled....we were the grass and paid the price. I guess my point is that if you are pro-Armenia, then you must - above all - give your utmost support to the existence of an azad Hayastan...whatever the boundaries might be at the time. While we all may have romantic notions about Anatolia, I think that's where they should remain, so our focus can be today's Armenia and those who work very, very hard to live there. It may sound harsh, but I just think it is prudent, realistic and practical. A mature rapproachment with Turkey might result in improved conservation and restoration of Armenian sites, and that is something really worth working for, because those represent our irreplaceable heritage, no matter where the border lies. If Turkey is willing to help with that, we should show our appreciation, because they don't have to do anything, except as a gesture of goodwill. There are no laws, no requirements so we must not only enourage it, but support it in any way we can. Plus, it benefits both peoples in many important ways.
To CDEFG,
One additonal deep note.
You are stating that the treaty of Lausanne has no validity because Armenia was not present at the signing. I am just wondering who signed the treaty of Alexandropol?
I suggest you look at article 10 of this treaty (signed by Prime Minister Khadissian on behalf of Armenia) where Armenia renounces to the treaty of Sevres and to the Wilsonian border!
Hello Friends,
Have you seen this episode on CNN? I got a glimpse of this clip because ANCA Ken Hachikyan sent an e-mail for everyone ... I simply wanted to throw up.. just looking at his face, I want to throw up.. I am disgusted by this man and his gang.. simply disgusted.. the lies he spews...
http://www.anca.org/donations/erdogan_amanpour.php
Has anyone seen the full clip? Do you know where we can obtain that???
Thank you
Gayane
Sylva.. you hit the bulls eye with
“If child’s IQ is low.
Thy will get some training
But, can thy become professor of law?”
Your poems have passion, power and truth to it.. Thank you for always enlightening us with your writing..I truly enjoy reading them..
AB--- the more I read what you have to say.. the more I get turned off.. I am getting really frustrated by your comments.. someone needs to slap you from your dellusional dream.
Boyajian: as always.. bravo.. simply bravo.. i have no words to describe what I feel when i read your comments.. it is pure genious... I am proud that you are an Armenian..
That goes to Janine, Gary, Dr. Deranian and CDEFG..
I feel so frustrated that this much knowledge is wasted on t he likes of AB, Robert (from another site.. another Turk), Ahmet... as well as waste of our time like Sylva stated...but then again, there may be a streak of light at the end of the tunnel.. maybe we can turn these people around by telling them the true story over and over... who knows?? they may finally realize the reality of the matter...that what happened and is currently happening is undeniably unacceptable.. If one is blocked from outside sensors and feelers and does not understand on his or her count, then preaching or teaching or showing could be a challenging matter..all I know and all everyone knows except the denialists that 1915 gave birth to the Red Genocide... The White Genocide was born in the 21st Century and continues to this day..... ...
Hope that one day this tide of fear and uncertainty and weakness will shift toward a better wave...making those living in Turkey to rise and speak out on how they truly feel and acknowledge the fact that their ancestors did commit the First Genocide of the 20th Century....and stop hiding behind their closed doors and whispering among themselves ...not much help to those who need their voice...
Karekin.. just like Boyajian described you... I too agree with his observation.....
Gayane
To AB –
I’ll tell you who are brainwashed. Brainwashed are those who believe that numerous historical, cultural, architectural, religious, and other artifacts that are spread all over Turkey belong to the Seljuk/Turkish “culture.” Brainwashed are those who believe that ‘honorable’ and very humane by nature Turks have never done harm to indigenous, ancient peoples inhabiting Asia Minor for millennia, but it were outside powers who partitioned your filthy Ottoman Empire, the prison of nations and the sick man of Europe (or, rather, Central Asia/Altay, which would be more appropriate geographic toponym in the case of the Turks). Brainwashed are, as we exchange these comments, those millions of Turkish children for whom your denialist government has distributed 12 mln DVDs depicting how Armenians(?!) committed mass murders of poor, peace-loving, and compassionate Turks. What a despicable, cheap, and dishonorable measure! Brainwashed are those who kill their own intellectuals like Hrant Dink in the daylight only because he wouldn’t sing the old denialist song by the majority of your brainwashed citizens. Brainwashed are those who threaten and expel Nobel Prize laureates like Orhan Pamuk instead of taking the pride of his accomplishments. You want to swallow more truth, or I’d rather have mercy and stop here?
Regarding Cyprus. I responded to your bizarre comment, I quote: ‘Armenia was conquered 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.’ I asked a simple question with regard to this claim of yours: If you think that 500 years after the Turkish conquer of indigenous Armenian lands does not give the right to Armenians to claim territories, does just 36 years after the Turkish occupation of Cyprus give the Greek Cypriots the right to claim their territory back?’ Neither I nor the majority of intellectuals all over the world would need a new forum on Cyprus that will take pages of discussion. Whoever is literate and can read the course of events back in 1974 knows that a sovereign nation has been invaded and occupied. If you think this may sound Turkophobic, then be aware that I equally condemn the U.S. occupation of Iraq, although I know that eventually the U.S. will withdraw, unlike the Turks…
ARPI JAN,
MY ELDEST UNCLE WHO ACCOMPANIED MY GRANDFATHER ON THE DEATH MARCH FROM WHERE THEY PERISHED -DESERTS- CRY OUT !!!,better described by A.Aharonian" ayskan aryun te wor mornan mer wortik,togh voghj ashkharh hayubn GARTA NAKHADINK"..i was sickend reading those posts above by fascist turks..
MY FATHER-THAT ESCAPED, ALSO TOLD US THAT THERE WERE ALSO SOME GOOD TURKS...BUT ...MAJORITY ARE WHAT WE KNOW THEY ARE..HOWDEVILISHLY DISPOSED ABOUT US..WE MUST BDE VERY VERY CAREFULL.UP ABOVE SOMEONE-I DON'T EVEN CARE TO REMEBER NMAE,SAID EXACTLY WHAT I KNEW THEY WOULD START TO GRIND"give them back their ararat-aghri dagh--.ani ruins.."AS THOUGH WE WERE STILL THE REMNANTS TURNEWD TO BEGGARS...NO ASLAN BALASI, WE DON'T TAKE "bakhshish-we demand first of all recognition by your government of the genocide perpetrated by your previous government(s)YES ,ATATURK ALSO DID SAME YOUR S CALLED REPUBLIC FOUNDER, IN SMYRNA AND THEN Some.WE DO NOT HATE TURKS WE DO NOT RESPECT DENIALISTS...JUST SHUN AWAY FROM THEM KEEP AWAY...GO TO EUROPE, U.S. WHEREEVER YOU LIKE,THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS. JUST LEAVE US ALONE...!!!!!for as our pres. said at Der el Zor...WE ARE, WE SALL BE AND WE SALL MULTIPLY...
NONETHELESS THIS ART TO THE "paremid"ARMENS..SEE I FORTOLD THAT THEY WOULD BY AND BY -FOR THAT IS THEIR OTTOMAN TWISTED MINDSET, CUNNINGLY -BY AND BY -YAVASH YAVASH CME TO REALIZE AND TRY TO START WITH SUGAR COATED OFFERINGS...WHY THE WILL EVEN SEND GUYNAYSUN LIKE A DOZEN TO COME AND PAY RESPET AT OUR MARTYRS MONUMENT "tsitsernakapet"...ONLY DON'T EXPECT THAT THEY PAY COMPENSATIONS OUT OF THER POCKETS-WHEN THEIR POCKETS ARE BEING ILLED IN BY u.s. BAKHISHISH...you expect these ..to pay us?
i explained the only way it can be received is through oil companies-that erroneously by passed armenia-their stout REAL ALLY IN TWO WW...s.set aside from billios of transit duties that they pay to great turey, pay to the Armenians..
FOR THEY ALS ARE TO BE ASED WHY DIDN'T YOU PASS IT THROUGH ARMENIA? see what i mean...THE TURK IS RIGHT IN only one thing that we have been decived by odars,especially the anglos...Z Germans...who ttrained turkish officers /army during WWII AND NOW SAME IHAS BEEN REPEATING THE OTHER .ANGLO SAXON FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTIURY...
Russians?they have never MASSACRED ARMENIANS ,SOME MISUNDERSTANDINGS INDEED, CAN HAPPEN BETWEEN TWO NATIONS PEOPLES.BUT right now they are O.K. and their duma has officially acknowledged the armenian genocide...
don't pay much attn; to what these fascist mentality turks are propagating here. Take it very lightly.Next they will haggle about "akhijevan that is MILLENIA OLD ARMENIAN, THEN KARS ARDAHAN...THEN WHEN KURDISH ISSUE RIPENS UP A BIT MORE START THINKING REAL HARD WHAT TO DO WITH THESE "ERMENIS"...oh god has there ever been any people nation (EXCEPT THE TURCO-AZERIS) that has hated to their gutts the "Ermenis".I DO NOT HATE TURKS OR AZERIS BUT THEIR FASCIST FUNCTIONARIES...WHO DO ALL THEY CAN TO DENY WHAT THEIR FORFATHERS DID TO US...
GO GRIND YOUR OXYDATED AXES ELSEWHERE, YOU FASCISTS-learn from zGermans willya? OR KEEP ON SAME PARRROT LIKE REPETITIONS,AS SOME GOOD ARMEN SAID ABOVE...SEE WHAT YOU GAIN.
WE ARE ALL FOR NEIGHBOURLY RELATIONS-PROVIDED YOU RESPECT TRUTH AND MAKE AMENDS ...TIME IS RIPE FOR YOU TO THINK IT OVER AGAIN...DO NOT THINK BY POSTPONING YOU ARE GAINING MUCH...OUR JUSTFULL CAUSE, WILL SOOON TURN INTO AN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL CASE...WAIT AND SEE......
Kurt, I don't understand. You mean Western Macedonia is now supposed to be a part of Turkey?
The justice will occur and we will get our lands back.
it's NONE of your business.
K.K.
I LIKE YOUR COOL STANCE TWDS SUCH LIKE HATE-MONGERING OUTBUSTS...BY TURKS OR AZERIS..
WE SALL CARRY ON TILL THE TRUTH PREVAILS,CULPRIT HASBEEN CONDMNED INTERNATIONALLY AD MADE TO MAKE AMENDS.NOTHING CAN STOP OUR MARCH,LIKE OUR "vramshabouh" PRESIDENT SERJ SARKISIAN DECLARED,BOTH IN DEL ELZOR AND IN D.C."we are we shall be and we shall multiply..."
take care...
To Karekin,
What you write causes me to remember the first time (September 2003) I set foot in Hayastan, or more specifically, when I saw Mt. Ararat. There it was, like I had imagined and dreamed about since I was a boy. To think that there is an independent Armenia in the 21st century ... personally I consider it a kind of miracle ... and one for which I am extremely grateful.
Do I dream of a Greater Armenia ... one stretching to the Black and Mediterranean Seas? Absolutely and if it's in my power to do so then I will work for that. However, as you stated Karekin, we must above all give our utmost support to the existence of an azad Hayastan…whatever the boundaries might be at the time.
Another remembrance that comes to mind was during my first visit to Hayastan when I met a very distinguished group of scientists who, despite very little financial support, were working diligently to keep a major science research center open that was well respected during Soviet times but had fallen into severe disrepair when I visited. I will never forget what the director said to me as I was leaving. Please he said, we do not want handouts ... we just want to earn our living in science here in Armenia. It still breaks my heart to think about that man and his fellow Armenian scientists.
Concerning Armenia's boundaries, there is another point I want to bring up for discussion, having to do with the concept of national boundaries in the modern world. Is it not possible that in the relatively near future, national boundaries will have very little meaning? The EU comes to mind here as well as virtual communities of which this comment posting is an example. I bring this up not to discourage in any way active pursuit of Armenian lands, but rather to emphasize the need to keep our culture alive and well, especially in Hayastan. If for example, the borders between Armenia and Turkey are someday opened, are we ready to bring Armenian culture back to places like Van, Erzerum, Kars, Kharpert and Mush? The fact that Yerevan is a major population center of the region could provide, if we are ready, great opportunity to essentially re-Armenize the land. Who knows, maybe in 100 years or so the dominant culture in eastern Asia Minor would once again be Armenian, not by destroying, but by ways so characteristic of Armenians, intelligence and creativity.
One last remembrance, this one when I visited Van back in 2002. The locals there (Kurds I suppose) said to the Armenian tour group I was with that they wished Armenians were still in Van as life was so much better when Armenians were around. What a beautiful legacy we have as Armenians, those that make life better, not just for Armenians, but for all those around us.
A few months ago I happened to have walked by a world map of locations where synchrotrons (major scientific research facilities that essentially are super-microscopes) were located throughout the world . There were only about 40 locations on the map. Can you imagine by amazement and gratitude that Armenia was on the map, the only one besides Jordan/Israel even close to the middle east? Turkey was not on that map, nor Iran, or Syria or ... What this means for Armenia of course is that researchers from all over the world will be coming to Armenia to do world class scientific research and with that, honor and respect. Perhaps then, this is the way to our future, an Armenia known not for it's savagery, but rather for it's creativity and intelligence that benefits the world as a whole.
JANNNN MSHECI JANNNN.. apres.. Excellent comment..
Thank you for saying it as it is.. maybe AB may stop for a minute and realize that what he thinks he knows it is a simple illusion as he keeps claiming of us.. I know AB ignores what I comment on because as they say....when someone says how it is, the other remains silence.. and hence the case here.. AB has not answered any of my questions.. maybe because he does not know how to answer them.. maybe because he knows that he is just another "pretend" Armenian who seeks refuge under Turkish pretend state.. AB thinks Turkey will protect him if he continues to voice and protect its propaganda.. what a joke... what a mistake..
AB is not enough to get every cell in my body up and screaming, now this person Kurt joined the party... such luck... Kurt.. huge difference between Turks occupying lands vs any other country occupying lands... NO NATION EVER was as barbaric, heartless, ruthless, systematic as Turks against Armenians (other Christian people)...Turks carried out the FIRST .. I repeat THE FIRST GENOCIDE the world EVER saw.. the bloodiest slaughter the world EVER experienced... Turks are occupiers and will always be...
Hell will definintely break loose on those who denies this Genocide... sooner or later....
I speak out of anger.. I speak out of being fed up ... I speak out being tired of the lies, denials, manipulations, white Genocide.. I am tired.. and disgusted by Turkey and its citizens who continue to cover up their dirty deeds.. Just tired and disgusted of people like AB, Kurt, Robert, Ahmet and their kind who stand here, in front of so many Armenians and lie through their teeth.. NO shame, NO humility, NO remorse, NO acknowledgement, NO recognition.. NO understanding.. This is sickening..simply disgusting...
Gayane
AB, you said because Armenia had been conquered 500 years ago, it has no right to claim it's lands back after 500 years, right? I said that just because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people, it doesn't have the right to claim all that is Armenian (resources, wealth, cultural artifacts) as it's own. You defend Turkey's right to our lands. I defend Armenian rights to claim back what belongs to Armenians. There is no twisting of words here. Just a very different viewpoint.
We agree that Turkey should admit it's crimes, but then what? Will they let us preserve and restore our historical sites, will they let history books reflect the truth about the indigenous people of Asia Minor. Will they acknowledge Armenian contributions to the culture of Asia Minor? Will they open borders and stop interfering on behalf of Azerbaijan?
On ANOTHER SECTION OF THIS FORUM THERE ACTUALLY ARE A FEW TURKS PARTICIPATING IN RATHER HARSH DIALOGUE, RATHER CRUDE, AND EACH DEFENDING HIS/HER POSITION AS TO THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.DIFFERENCE BEING THAT HERE ALL SEEM TO PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE WHAT IS ALREADY WELL DOCUMETED BY.....DANISH, BRITISH,GERMAN,AMERICAN,RUSSIAN AND OTHER MISSIONARIES AND/OR DIPLOMATS SUCH AS CONSULS IN SAY KARS OR BITLIS ETC.,
THERE IS AMPLE EVDENCE THAT YET HAS TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY.YES EVEN FILM FOOTAGE,BADLY TAKEN BY NON-PROFEFESSIONALS AS ABOVE MENTIONED.
CORE OF THE ATTER IS THOSE SAME NON-ARMENIAN (IMMORALS) DO NOT COME FORTHE ASTHEY DID WITH THE CASE OF THE JEWS..
HAVE YOU ASKED YOURSELVES WHY/? WHY THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE ARMEIAN GENOCIDE AND THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST/SHOA?WHY?
PRAY UNDERSTAND THAT ALTHOUGH I RIGHT NOW WRITE IN THIS IDIOM-I CAN READ AND WRITE IN FIVE,SPEAK SEVEN..BUT ADMITTEDLY THIS LANGUAGE/IDIOM IS NOT ONLY THE COMMERCIAL ONE BIZNESS ONE WORLD OVER BUT ALSO FAST HAS BECOME THE DIPLOMATIC ONE AS WELL.
IT FOLLOWS THAT THE ANGLO(S) HAVE TRIUMPHED THIS WISE AND HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHETHER THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE-AFTER WAITING 95 YEARS- SHOULD BE IMPOSED ON THEIR ALLY GREAT TURKEY OR NOT?ONLY THEY DECIDE,SINCE THEY STILL ARE AT ODDS AT THE OTHER(S)notwithstanding cold war being over...
YES THEY ESTIMATE GREAT TURKEY IN THE AREA CAN BE THEIR GENDARME ,WHETHER OVER ARAB NATIONS AN/OR EVEN IRAN.ARMENIA? why that is a tiny little country,landlocked and not really important in any aspect to them anyhow...
Thence be comprehensive and TRY TO ACCEPT ABOVE FACTS, ADMIT THEM.UNTILL SUCH TIME AS GREAT TURKEY IS THEIR DETERRENT FORCE IN THE AREA, OUR JUST CAUSE WILL BE OVERLOOKED BY THEM.INDEED THEE IS THE OTHER MUCH MORE IMPORTANT FACTOR AS WELL TO BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.THAT OF SAFEGUARDING THE FUEL -PRODUCNG COUNTRES AND SAFE TRANSIT OF ,FLOW OF THE BLACK SUBSTANCE. FOR OVER A CENTURY THIS HAS BEEN THE OTHER FACTOR..
NOW THEN WHAT SOULD ARMENIANS RELY ON?just to make -already,sorry to say LATE documentaries?WHY OVER TEN YEASRSS AGO WITH FRIENDS THAT ARE STILL THERE WE DISCUSSED TO HAVE SOMEONE WRITE SCRIPT OF BOOK TITLED "M A M I G O N",by Armenian American author Jack Hashian,which I can assure you would be much more impressive than those documentaries...IT WILL SURPASS "THE
SCHINDLER'S LISST".JUST GET HOLD OF IT AND READ IT, THEN TELL ME IF IT IS NOT S..
BUT THEN ARMENIANS ARE ALWAYS TRYING TO DO THE "OTHER" WAY.do it like the ones that are currently in circulation-meaning day in day out films made w/rgd to Jewish olocaut their sfferings etc., with all respect to their sufferings.But DO THEY CARE A DAMN, IF THEIR BEST PRODUCRS DIRECTORS D NOT WISH TO MAKE ONE SCH ARMENIAN -GENOCIDE DEPICTING MOVIE...
THE WORLD IS TURNED VERY EGOISTIC THSE DAYS,ONE PERSON ,OR FOR THAT MATTER ONE NATION DOES NOT CARE WHAT THE OTHER ONE DOES.
MY FINAL SAY IS ,DO NOT RELY ON ANY OF THOSE DANISH,DUTCH,ANY ANY OTHER SUCH NATIONS BEING REALLY IN OUR FAVOUR,LET ALONE THE REAL MCCOYS, THE ...YOU KNSW WOSE LANGUAGE NOW WE EMPLOY...IN COMMUNICATING WITH EA OTHER.
MY SUGGESTION ?RELY on getting the diasora-whch could certainly be a HUMAN RESOURCES WISE, AS WELL AS ECONOMIC SOURCES WISE A POWER TO BE COUNTED WITH IF ORGANIZED,RATHER RE-ORGANIZED...I AM SUPPOSED TO BE ONE OF THE FEW,THAT AVE BEING TRUMPETING THIS THEORY WITHOUT ANY AVAIL..
OUR STATUS QUO WILL CONTINUE AS IS...LIKE BEATING AROUND THE BUSH TRYING-LIKE...B ING OTHERS TO give us a hand ...ENOUGH OF THAT.
"hasgcoghin barev TO THOSE WHO COMPREHEND REALITIES I SALUTE...
G.P.
Joe.
Very optimistic i see.it want just happen, that will be handed everything back,
( personally i had encounters with Melbourne AGBU,ARF,ARS )latley i have wondered if this organizations are all alike over the world?if Unity is not achieved in between all Our Armenian organizations AROUND THE WORLD,and look for a new approach toward our issues,will have Buckley and none for any achievements.no unity?so prepare yourself for the next 95 years .the ARF will be still singing in their clubs.the AGBU will tell us what they are doing better then the ARS.etc,etc,etc.the old deja vue?
UNITE TO ACHIEVE. OR LET THE MEMORIES OF THOSE 1.5 MILLION REST IN PEACE.and everyone goes about their businesses.
To Gayane:
You are 100% right. Before coming to terms with the crime, Turkey needs to understand that it actually exists. You need to tell your story so people will doubt if what they know is true.
Despite some of Erdogan's extremely odd public statements, this government is the only one which admitted that things are not okay. I found out about this today:
http://buacihepimizin.org//index.php?sayfa=2
I doubt if other governments would give permission to such meeting. I'm planning to attend it too and if it ends with no incidents, I'll have a bit more faith in the possibility of a better future.
to Boyajian and CDEFG,
My statement are not based on Wikipedia, I am just using it to back up my ideas since on the net it is the most accessible search media.
And also the reason why I am using Wikipedia is because so many commentators on this site are using it as reference. Why nobody is objecting to Janine when she is basing her allegations on Wikipedia?
To recap what I have been stating:
1. After WW1, following the defeat of Germany, Germany and its allies remained obliged to sign recapitulation treaties among which Treaty of Sevres.
2. Those treaties imposed were so unjust that they were also named the "Diktat" by many.
3. In the case of the treaty of Sevres, it was pure dismantling of the Ottoman Empire giving control on Anatolia also to Italy, France, and to UK which had no original territory claim on Anatolia.
4. As early as 1920, France stated that they will not ratify the treaty of Sevres. In the conference of London held in autumn 1920, France asks for the revision of the treaty of Sevres. The same attitude was adopted by UK followed by all other allied forces with the exception of Greece. This treaty was not ratified in the parliaments of the signatory countries except the one of Greece.
5. A weakened Ottoman Empire had signed the treaty of Sevres. Immediately an independence movement started in Turkey led by Ataturk. In 1919 Ataturk started what is historically called "the Independence War of Turkey" (to name it "Turkish re-occupation of territories assigned to their inhabitants by the Treaty of Sevres" is just an interpretation).
6. France who had signed a peace treaty with Kemalist forces as early as 1920, supported the Kemalist armies by providing arms used in the East and West fronts.
7. On the east front, Armenian forces are defeated and the treaty of Alexandropol is signed with Armenia (not Russia) where Armenia is renouncing to the borders of treaty of Sevres.
8. The allied forces "to contain" the Kemalist forces propose to hold a conference in Lausanne which lasted months and ended with the signing treaty of Lausanne.
9. The treaty of Lausanne annulled and replaced the treaty of Sevres and the parliaments of the signatory countries all ratified this treaty. Obviously, Armenia who was not existing as country was not present at the signing.
10. As for the USA, not being part of Europe, it was only present as observer at the signing of Lausanne treaty. A side Treaty of Amity and Commerce between the new Turkey and the USA was also signed in Lausanne. This treaty is also called the "other" Lausanne Treaty.
The above 10 points are irrefutable historical facts which can be backed up by non-Turkish international sources. In case of need, I can provide you the sources.
To CDEFG,
You are right. I am sorry for having called you "historical distorter". I should respect your opinion. As you said: Everyone is entitled to have his opinion, but that does not give me upper hand to stigmatize an opinion that differs from mine as distortion.
In the same manner, am I obliged to support the insults of some commentators (specially the one of the poet want to be), because my opinions differs? In each of my comments, I have defended what I thought to be right but did I attack anybody on personnel level?
Obviously (it is understandable), an Armenian origin source cannot be objective on the subject. I am as much suspicious and anxious about what Armenian historians say as you are about the Turkish historians say.
Regarding the sourcing of my allegations as I said in my earlier post, I am ready to provide you with non Turkish irrefutable sources.
Gayane -- I could not believe what Erdogan said in that interview. It is the usual: "Nobody can decide anything for Turkey" living in delusion drivel. Even Christianne Amanpour looked embarrassed. Hitchens wrote an article recently calling Erdogan unbalanced. Obviously, the whole of historical and genocide scholarship doesn't matter/ remains something to be ignorant of if you are the PM of Turkey. It is creepy. The same thoughts have been voiced here. "We're all equals, we're all conquerors, nobody has the right to dictate our borders." blah blah blah "might makes right" No respect for truth or international law norms, etc.
Obviously (it is understandable), an Armenian origin source cannot be objective on the subject. I am as much suspicious and anxious about what Armenian historians say as you are about the Turkish historians say.
Why is this obvious? Taner Akcam has been objective on the genocide. A good historian is capable of being honest no matter where they are from. Of course, if the government threatens the historian so that he has no freedom that is a different story. "Truth" means different things in different parts of the world, especially where the government tries to dictate ignorance of history.
To Boyajian,
On your initial post you have stated:
"500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people".
I objected to that stating that I never said that 500 years of domination was giving right to commit murder.
On your last post you are stating having said:
"... because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people..."
As far as I am concerned, those two posts do not have the same meaning. If it does, meaning that I have misunderstood your words, then I will gladly withdraw what I have posted with regards to twisting.
Regarding your last para, and your questions the reply is yes, they should do.
To MSHECI,
Many thanks for your one full page of comments summing up to what I said: for you Turkish=Bad. With two words you could have summarized your whole post.
Regarding your comments on Cyprus, I do not understand what you are telling. I think you are mixing things (as it is said in Turkish your head is like a watermelon). Cyprus remained under Ottoman ruling for 400 years, wheras Armenia remained under Ottoman ruling for 500 years. Where are you coming up with the number of 36 years. As I said Cyprus is a very complex issue which should be adressed in some other forums.
If Turkey is willing to help with that, we should show our appreciation, because they don’t have to do anything, except as a gesture of goodwill. There are no laws, no requirements so we must not only enourage it, but support it in any way we can. Plus, it benefits both peoples in many important ways.
Well, unfortunately there are UNESCO world heritage-declared sites that are still not being protected (and in Azerbaijian) and they do have the benefit of international law. Also, property of the Greek Patriarchate has been systematically destroyed by government bureaucracy by twisting Turkey's own internal laws. So I don't see the goodwill there for this.
And, did someone mention the Treaty of Lausanne???
The Turkish Government undertakes to grant full protection to the churches, synagogues, cemeteries, and other religious establishments...”
Treaty of Lausanne 1923
Article 42
Gayane --
You don’t have to exhaust yourself because of a bunch of denialist Turks posting here. They can make the veins in your temples swell and your blood group change. But guess what? Essentially, they’re not to blame for being ignorant because they believe anything they’ve heard during their lifetime and what they’ve been taught in schools. These individuals are unable to question the true side of the story or at least seek truth, because their nation has been raising brainwashed people since at least 1938 when the great falsification and distortionist Mustafa Kemal passed away leaving a completely surreal picture of Turkey for the next generations. What can you expect from such people? You can’t change them by just throwing facts at their face. It requires patience, time, and grand efforts. Hence, keep it cool, Gayane. If you believe in God, you should know that His supreme justice will prevail sooner or later. There’s no way for murderers to get away with their crime. Even if a court on Earth decides they’re not guilty, a court in Heaven has its own rules. One way or the other, during our lifetime or during the lifetime of our grandchildren, in one form or the other, Turkey WILL receive its punishment.
Comfort yourself with the fact that alongside people like AB, Kurt, Robert, or Ahmet, we also came across honorable and courageous Turks as SG, Istanbul, Burak Can and others. All is not lost if such people exist and if their remarks are sincere. And if all of us here could at least shake the denilaists’ dogmatic, distorted psyche and their vision of the subject, we can say we’ve done a little precious something for the souls of millions of massacred in cold blood innocent Armenian victims.
April 24 is approaching and I’d like to see no Turkish denialist posting on these pages on that day unless they find the courage and repent…
Karekin and David have made good observations. They both stress the importance of supporting the RA and trying to imagine a rapprochement with Turkey that is less about redrawing borders and more about helping Armenia reinforce its current strengths and improve its areas of weakness. Something for all of us to think about.
I think we are all proud of the great artistic and scientific minds that have come from Armenia. It's wonderful to know that despite the hardships in Western and Eastern Armenia in the last century, Armenians can look beyond their obstacles, can still value education and contribute to the world.
However, it is three days away from the commemoration of the 95th anniversary of the Armenian genocide and my mind contemplates all the great minds, artists, scientists and leaders that were stolen from us. The thought that once again Turkey is allowed to skirt the truth and even scold those who accuse it of genocide makes me want to throw up. In his interview with CNN's Christianne Amanpour, Erdogan makes the ridiculous statement that no nation has the right to accuse another of genocide. Why not? Who has the right? Just more bluster and distraction from the truth.
AB,
Let me clear. My arguments are based on my readings into mostly non-Armenian primary and secondary sources pertaining to the treaties signed in the 1920s. Again, I’m not an international lawyer, I don’t claim to be an expert. I just read materials on international law as it pertained to my interest in the history of nations inhabiting eastern Asia Minor.
From 1918 to 1923 five treaties determined the Armenian-Turkish border. The Treaty of Sevres was signed on August 10, 1920. It was followed by the Treaty of Alexandropol (December 3, 1920), the Treaty of Moscow (March 16, 1921), the Treaty of Kars (October 13, 1921), and finally, the Treaty of Lausanne (July 24, 1923).
It is a paramount principle of the international law that international agreements be signed by the subjects of international law, i.e. by a legitimate government through its delegate. From this universally-accepted stand, only the Treaty of Sevres and the Treaty of Lausanne are valid.
The Treaty of Alexandropol was concluded at the time when Kemalists stiull were rebels fighting the legitimate Ottoman government. They still had to come to power in Turkey, while the ruling Armenian party, the Dashnaktsutyun, had already lost the power at the time.
The Treaties of Moscow and Kars have no legal effect whatsoever since they were signed by Kemalist revolutionaries, although Sultan was formally the head of the state till 1923. By the way, it’s come to my attention that on May 11, 1920 the Turkish Tribunal demoted and sentenced to death General Mustafa Kemal. The Tribunal verdict was approved by the Sultan on May 24, 1920.
As to Bolshevik Russia, it hasn’t been recognized by the international community until February 1, 1924. Thus, its signature on any international agreement is not valid either. Although the Treaty of Sevres was not ratified, it remains valid as the only legal agreement which bears legitimate signatures of Armenian and Turkish delegates.
The most important point that overrules all these treaties is that the Armenian-Turkish border was determined by the Arbitration Award of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson. Armenia was among the winners of the World War I and it put its signature under the Treaty of Sevres. Great Britain, France, and Italy turned to President Wilson for Arbitration Award. According to the international law, arbitration awards cannot be appealed. Signed on November 22, 1920, it was conveyed to the Paris Conference on December 6, but unfortunately, the Republic of Armenia was already occupied by the Red Army on December 3. Subsequently, the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in July 24, 1923 with Armenia as non-signatory.
With disintegration of one of the signatories to the Lausanne Treaty, the Soviet Russia, and with proclaiming independence in 1991, the Republic of Armenia has become a subject of international law again. According to the Wilsonian Arbitration Award, Armenia is entitled to receive provinces of Bitlis, Van, Erzerum, and Trabzon, which ensured Armenia’s outlet to the sea.
Many thanks for your one full page of comments summing up to what I said: for you Turkish=Bad. With two words you could have summarized your whole post.
Regarding your comments on Cyprus, I do not understand what you are telling. I think you are mixing things (as it is said in Turkish your head is like a watermelon). Cyprus remained under Ottoman ruling for 400 years, wheras Armenia remained under Ottoman ruling for 500 years. Where are you coming up with the number of 36 years. As I said Cyprus is a very complex issue which should be adressed in some other forums.
Unbelievable. Are you studying, AB, to be part of the Turkish foreign service? Are you paid to be here? These issues are straightforward -- Turkish occupation of Cyprus has been condemned by the UN, nobody recognizes the legitimacy of this. Your response here is totally nonsense, not to mention insulting to someone whose post made perfect sense and so did his explanation. So much for an honest discussion.
Boyajian says it well ... we Armenians are faced with balancing between supporting the Republic of Armenia as it stands today, while at the same time not forgetting what started on April 24, 1915. How did you put it Boyajian ... something like Turkey's denialist tactics make you want to throw up. I could not agree with you more. What the government of Turkey is doing, is in my mind, nothing short of continuing the Genocide and that they get away with it ... is absolutely DISGUSTING, an affront to all humanity.
To AB;
I’m free to post here as many words as I wish. This is not your prerogative to tell me how many words I should use to support the truism about Turks being brainwashed by their government. There are moderators here who are entitled to decide on the quantity of words in their discussion forum, OK? On a separate note, I never take interest in visiting Turkish discussion forums, but since many Turks, for some unknown reason, visit Armenian discussion forums, then you’d need to comply with rules and regulations set by the moderators, OK? In light of this, I comply with the fact that your preposterous saying addressed to me as having ‘a head like a watermelon’ was allowed by the mediators. And since it’s been allowed, I hope they’d also allow an Armenian saying in return about Turks like you being called as ‘yemish glukh.’ The saying intentionally uses a Turkish word in it, so I hope you’ll make it out… If you don’t, let me know.
I’m sorry for being compelled to repeat for the third time what I wrote on Cyprus.
You claimed: ‘Armenia was conquered 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it doesn’t give the right to Armenians to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.’
I asked: ‘If you think 500 years after the Turkish conquer of indigenous Armenian lands doesn’t give the right to Armenians to claim territories, does just 36 years after the Turkish conquer of Cyprus give the Greek Cypriots the right to claim their territory back?’
I’m disputing your controversial notion about the duration that a nation has been under foreign occupation. If 500 years under the Turkish yoke (which you sarcastically call ‘ruling’) is too long period for you, then what do you think about just 36 years that passed from 1974 when the Turkish military forces invaded and occupied a sovereign state, a subject of international law, and a the United Nations member-state Cyprus? (BTW, 2010 – 1974 = 36) Can Greek Cypriots claim their lands back or you think that someone has given the nomadic Turks, who appeared in Asia Minor out of nowhere, a right to invade, occupy (which you sarcastically call ‘ruling’), enslave, and then mass exterminate, scorch, deport, and destroy other, more ancient and more civilized, nations?!
Janine,
How can Taner Akcam be objective? Even the little kid on the street knows that he is on the payroll of the Armenian Diaspora. Even his books are sponsored by Armenian institutions.
Regarding the churches, cemeteries, etc... I have nothing to say. It is indeed true that proper protection was not granted.
But again make up your mind I thought the treaty of Lausanne had no validity since Armenia was not signatory.
Dear Armenian Brothers and Sisters!
April 24, the Day of International Remembrance of the Victims of the Armenian Genocide, is approaching. This day, and the horrifying years that followed, will always remain in the minds and the hearts of Armenians all over the world, as well as in the memory of hundreds of millions of concerned citizens of the world. The Armenian Genocide, a deliberate extermination of a race and a whole civilization, will never be forgotten and the pain and grief caused by the Ottoman Turks will never vanish.
Respect our victims: innocent men, women, the elders, children, and even unborns killed as their mothers’ wombs were ripped off by Turkish gendarmes, and light a candle here http://www.candle.direct.am/.
Pray Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to soothe their innocent souls…
Janine:
I am not saying that Western Macedonia is now supposed to be part of Turkey but was until 1922.
Bulgarians ceded to Greeks.
What I am saying is that many people live in eastern Macedoni ( we call western ) are Turks. They call themselves Turks but Greeks says NO..you are NOT Turks. Turks can not even use '''Turk'' name in any organization. It is forbidden by law. Greece is a EU member and europe does not do anything. Where is the human rights and democracy..
Turks live in Gumulcine, Kavala, Iskece, Dedeagac.. and many small villages...
SG to Gayane
Thanks for sharing the gathering request on the 24th.
To Boyajian,
On your initial post you have stated:
“500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people”.
I objected to that stating that I never said that 500 years of domination was giving right to commit murder.
On your last post you are stating having said:
“… because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people…”
As far as I am concerned, those two posts do not have the same meaning. If it does, meaning that I have misunderstood your words, then I will gladly withdraw what I have posted with regards to twisting.
Regarding your last para, and your questions the reply is yes, they should do.
SG: You are among those Turks that I consider heros. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your genuine support and acknowledgement. I hope that there are more Turks like you who against all odds find truth and conscious in themselves and free themselves from these shackles that they are in by their own country. You are truly a streak of light at the end of the tunnel among other Turks who share the same view as yourself. Thank you for sharing the commentary as well.. was this done on a Turkish website or in newspaper? Here is the copy if anyone is interested..
English
This is OUR pain. This is a mourning for ALL OF US.
In 1915, when we had a population of only 13 million people, there were 1,5 to 2 million Armenians living on this land. In Thrace, in the Aegean, in Adana, in Malatya, in Van, in Kars…In Samatya, in Şişli, in the Islands, in Galata…
They were the grocer in our neighbourhood, our tailor, our goldsmith, our carpenter, our shoemaker, our farmhand, our millwright, our classmate, our teacher, our officer, our private, our deputy, our historian, our composer…Our friend. Our next-door neighbours and our companion in bad times. In Thrace, in the Aegean, in Adana, in Malatya, in Van, in Kars…In Samatya, in Şişli, İn the Islands, in Galata…
On April 24th, 1915 they were “rounded up”. We lost them. They are not here anymore. A great majority of them do not exist anymore. Nor do their graveyards. There EXISTS the overwhelming “Great Pain” that was laid upon the qualms of our conscience by the “Great Catastrophe”. It’s getting deeper and deeper for the last 95 years.
We call upon all peoples of Turkey who share this heartfelt pain to commemorate and pay tribute to the victims of 1915. In black, in silence. With candles and flowers...
For this is OUR pain. This is a mourning for ALL OF US
April 24th, 2010
19.00
Taksim Square, Tram Stop
AB... i hope you would just shut up...... Iwonder how your ARmenian side of the family takes your crap and your views about the Genocide and Armenian.. I hope not favorably.. ......
Msheci jan.. you are absolutely correct.. bayts mart chi karoghanum el iran havaqats pahi.. yerp vor tesnuma sents debil martik sents nervers pchatsnum en... bayts I will do my best.. I will have faith... Thank God SG brings a balance a bit; otherwise I am hardly keeping my anger in tact... however, I told myself, no matter how much AB triggers anger in me and many others; I have Boyajian, Janine, Gary, CDEFG, and yourself to response and calm me down.. Thank you for that...
Janine jan... Erdogan is as confused as his boss and his county.. You are absolutely correct.. Even the interviewer was a bit shocked and wanted to interject when he was spitting nonsense about no nation has the right to tell what Turkey should do, but then she decided not to knowing that there is no point.. Erdogan sounds stupid by stating that and everyone knows it.. why ask and..what embarassment for Erdogan.. He is such a joke...
Gayane
To MSHECI,
I never insulted anybody on this site. To have a watermelon head means that everything is mixed in your head. If you take this as an insult there is nothing I can do.
Yes, the Greek Chipriot can claim back their land after 36 years of occupation, in the same manner, Turkey can claim back its land after 400 years of occupation.
There is no sarcasm in my voice when I use the term "ruling". This is the technical term used by historians. There is again nothing I can o if you do not know this or you are susceptible.
Dear Peter..
Thank you so much for sharing the link. I lit a candle and send the link to everyone on my distribution list.. Armenian and Non ARmenian...
God Rest our ancestors souls...
Gayane
To Kurt...
I don't see a problem with Greeks not allowing the Turks calling themselves Turks.. If you ask me.. they should be called Greek Turks... just like the Armenians can't freely say they are Armenian in Turkey... I don't know why are you sooo disturbed by that.. When your govt allows Armenians in Turkey to freely annouce themselves Armenians and have Armenian street names, organizations, associations without giving them grief, and problems, then expect other country to allow Turks to freely call themselves Turks.. I am surprised that Greeks allow Turks to live there to begin with...
Gayane
Correction to my last post to Kurt:
I meant to write " ....then DON"T expect other country to allow Turks to freely call themselves Turks...""""""
Thank you
Gayane
Sorry Kurt but you yourself claim that the minorities in Turkey sided with other powers as if this is some sort of valid reason for what happened in cleansing and genocides. (First of all, it's nonsense - you are talking about a handful of people maybe, but nowhere hear the whole population who weren't even allowed to own weapons nor took them up - and second of all it would not be a justification anyway) So now let's get this straight. There is an ethnic Turkish minority - in Thrace, not "Western Macedonia" - so that makes them automatically inalienably "righted" to secede to Turkey? Do you think there are Greeks there too? These people may be ethnic Turks but they are Greek citizens -- and they don't live there alone although they are a group. So, by your words you justify the secession of the Armenians and especially Kurds and all other minorities from Turkey now? Where is the talk of "nobody has the right to tell us our borders?"
Furthermore there is a huge difference between the way that Turks are treated in Greece and minorities are treated in Turkey. Where is the oppression and killing and halt to community activities and parties as happens in Turkey? It is well known that Turkey actively courts and influences this group - using their own means to control its politics, unfortunately for them. But that does not make the Greek government put them in jail, send them to camps, wage war on them or anything else. They have representatives in the Greek parliament who are free to vote all the time with Turkey or say that Turkey is always right no matter what, etc etc etc and nobody puts them in jail or stops them from speaking their own language or having schools or what have you. That is the big difference. And they are distinct minority groups -- they are not the only people in Thrace anyway.
Turks can not even use ”’Turk” name in any organization. It is forbidden by law
Not true. Unless of course you are talking about organizations maybe that wish to overthrow the Greek government or something. All kinds of people in Greece are flooding its borders illegally and even THEY are free to march in the streets of Athens, make demonstrations, etc. along with every conceivable political party, even those admittedly who wish to overthrow the system. Greece is the most free country you can imagine, much freer in that sense than the US. What you have heard about these groups is nonsense. Don't confuse Greek law regarding minority expressions with Turkish law. In fact, Turkish MPs from PASOK were elected because PASOK chose to bus Turkish people in to vote! The Greek political parties court candidates from this population to be in their parties.
Now what you are talking about is this -- here we go back to the Lausanne treaty, actually -- the government has traditionally identified the population by religion and not ethnicity. Everyone in Greece is Greek if they are a citizen, like AB might be Armenian but she is Turkish as a citizen of Turkey - a political, not ethnic designation. This was always -- until very recently - a designation on ID cards. So even though people might be ethnic Turkish they are Muslim minority -- this includes certain groups of ethnic Greeks and others too BTW.
AB - I'm not the one arguing about treaties, you are. And the Treaty of Lausanne which you say Turkey accepts has obviously not been upheld in Turkey in this respect.
One place
sorry my post was cut off
re names of organizations:
There is a minority rights group called "Turkish Minority Movement for Human and Minority Rights"
But there was a dispute with one group called "Turkish People of Xanthi" or something like that. This dispute was because it was an umbrella group of minorities which were not only Turkish but also Gypsy (Roma) and Pomaks (who are ethnically Greek but Muslim) so the name was misleading and also not representative of all the Muslim people it claimed to represent. But there are newspapers in Turkish, etc etc . Greece is a very free country, in some respects today many might say it is too free.
How can Taner Akcam be objective? Even the little kid on the street knows that he is on the payroll of the Armenian Diaspora. Even his books are sponsored by Armenian institutions.
Honestly this is so idiotic I can't understand how anyone can say it. I say, as a Diasporan Armenian, that it is possible that some intellectuals and others in Turkey can really come out (and brave the law) and say the truth about the Genocide (including recently in a book published in Turkey which I referred you to about the trials). But this silliness tells me about your assumptions and how faulty they are. Akcam has teaches in Western universities - do you think he has not been checked out? Do you think the whole of the International Association of Genocide Scholars all around the world is in a payroll of the Diaspora to lie? This is a supreme delusion. Who is paying Pamuk? I'm beginning to think we are talking to more than one person posting under your name now.
Kurt, sorry, I think I misread what you said -- you said
I am not saying that Western Macedonia is now supposed to be part of Turkey but was until 1922.
Pardon, I thought you were referring affirmatively to secession ... please ignore my arguments against this idea. But please refer to my response to the issues of naming of Turkish organization, MPs etc
What a nice idea to commemorate April 24 in that starting place of genocide. I hope large number of people will be there. Good job for the Human Rights Assciation.
To have a watermelon head means that everything is mixed in your head
Actually this is a common expression in the region. It usually means (at least elsewhere) that someone is stupid, empty-headed. Sometimes people use "gourd" or "squash" also -- means the same thing
Turkey can claim back its land after 400 years of occupation
Where has Turkey been occupied for 400 years (except of course in Turkey)?
Only 14 United States Senators signing on to Barbara Boxer's letter is an insult to every human being that values human life against all else. The senate isn't winning any friends with Armenian Americans.
Janine,
As always you are right...
having said that, did I say something about Armenian Scholars in general? or about Orhan Pamuk?
Janine,
Since when you became an expert on Turkish expresions?
Besides did Msheci hired you as a lawyer? He does not need you to defend himself.
AB,
Aren't you bored with this cat and mouse game, yet. I am, but I will play one more time to be cordial...
You wrote:
“Armenia was conquered some 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.”
I understand this to mean that you believe that after 500 years of Turkish domination Armenia no longer has the right to claim what belonged to its ancestors. Correct?
I wrote in my first post:
“500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people and then claim our resources, wealth and cultural artifacts as their own.”
You objected saying:
“You are twisting what I am saying!Did I say that that 500 years of domination gives the right for comitting any crimes? On the contrary, you should treat nicely and honour your subjects.”
I said in my 2nd response:
“… just because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people, it doesn’t have the right to claim all that is Armenian (resources, wealth, cultural artifacts) as it’s own. You defend Turkey’s right to our lands. I defend Armenian rights to claim back what belongs to Armenians.”
AB you are misreading the emphasis in my response, which is that I object to the notion that 500 years of domination followed by ethnic cleansing gives Turkey the right to claim our heritage and inheritance as its own. I am not saying that you said “500 years of domination gives Turkey the right to commit crimes.” We agree that no nation has that right. I am saying that Armenia has a right to claim its heritage. Regardless of years of domination or national borders.
So what now? What do you believe is Turkey's obligation once it acknowledges its responsibility in the deportation and consequent loss of life of 1.5 million Armenian souls? I am not interested in a verbal "tit for tat" with anyone on this site. I want justice for my people who you claim to be your people as well. What do you want?
You say you have Armenian blood, but it appears quite diluted. Your loyalty goes almost exclusively to the Turkish nation. I can not understand your decision. You choose to remain defiant in the face of overwhelming evidence provided by eye-witnesses and validation of non-Armenian genocide scholars all around the world. Have you taken a look at the German documentary aired on April 9th? You may ignore it, but the world knows the truth and awaits Turkey's response.
Face it. You are a lost Armenian. That's 1.5 million plus 1.
To all in the group
Just a thank you note to all of you who take the time, have the patience, have the knowledge, the courtage to pursue TRUTH & JUSTICE! No matter what opposition!
My father used to say "Asdvadz amen martu sirdin 'geure" (this I believe is a Turkish word) gou da" My grandparents were from Kayseri and very fluent in Turkish. Now I wish I had learned some more Turkish. I had learned our history as a child & teen but my interested peaked when I got a Turkish neighbour (next door to me) 3 yrs. ago. He has sold and moved on but we remained friends.
And we know JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL even if not in our own lifetime. My grandparents longed to see 'azad angakh Hayastan' yet never saw it. Now, we do have the 'azad & angakh Hyasatan' and we pray + do our oart for it's health and wellbeing!
Saturday is only hours away! Keep up the 'baykar'!
G
AB, you’re losing ground, I’m afraid.
If Greek Cypriots can claim their land back after 36 years of occupation, how can Turkey claim back any lands after 400-500 years of occupation when your empire was formed only in the late 14th century AD? Where were ‘your’ lands before that? I’ll tell you where: in the steppes of Central Asia where Seljuk/Mongol nomads have originated and from which they invaded Asia Minor, scotched civilizations of Assyrians, Greeks, Armenians, whose ethnogenesis go back several millennia, then Arabs, Kurds, Slavs and then occupied their lands. And you call this ‘ruling’ and not occupation? Don’t tell me what terminology the historians use. True scholars call things by their name, and any distinguished historian knows that empires are ruthless occupiers, empires are enslavers of indigenous peoples, not rulers. Also, but in the West we’re not accustomed to hear sayings that hint at or compare anyone’s head, whether mixed or in perfect uniform. So, at this stage you indeed don’t have to do anything, you already did… And I already responded…
You know what your problem is, AB? My apologies if this may look like I’m psychoanalyzing you. I’m not. I’m just trying to understand the motives behind such a fierce reaction to anything that you perceive as Turkophobic in your head. If it’s true that your ethnic background is half-Armenian half-Lebanese, then I’m afraid we’re dealing here with a psychological problem that’s best described in the following proverb: ‘Be more Catholic than the Pope,’ meaning one is excessively pious. Paraphrasing the proverb, which, obviously cannot be applied to you in religious terms, ‘You’re more Turkish than the Turk.’ You seem to adhere more stringently to defending any Turkish argument than the Turks themselves. Knowing your mixed background you think that by doing do you look more as ‘our guy’ for ethnic Turks. In reality, it looks comic.
Look deeper into your soul, appreciate you diverse ethnicity, be genuine not fake, and you’ll live a better, unfettered life, even in Turkey. You know, on April 24, 1915, one of the 200+ prominent Armenian intellectuals who were rounded up in Constantinople and then massacred, was Krikor Zohrab. Up until the last moment of his brief detention he believed that Turks wouldn’t kill him because he considered himself their brother throughout his life. But despite being so Turkophile, if I may say so, he, among all others, was beheaded…
I’ll save my words for you to understand what I mean…
im a jew from chile, sorry for my english.
it's shameful that the goverment of Israel does not recognize the genocide, being us the jewish victims of one. particulary i think that the jews and the common israelis recognize that the first genocide of the 20 century was the armenian genocide. 1500 000 armenians murdered, all west armenians of the otoman empire. and greeks and asyrians also... a crime against the first christian nation that cant be ignored.
but being turkey the first muslim state to recognize israel, and being one on the few muslim states to do so makes israel difficult to recognize the genocide... something that i can assure the jewish people dont share... the same happens with the United Kingdom they dont recognize the genocide because turkey is a mayor ally of them, ecomonic partner etc etc--- all is about money and conveniences... shame on Israel, UK, Sweden and all those countries that believes that money, trade agreements and military cooperation is more important that the memory of those 1 500 000 armenians murdered. shalom for all armenian brothers.
My apologies to some who may not understand the Armenian language. I didn't mean to be ignorant.
"Asvadz Amen Martu Sirdin geure gu da" may be translated "God will give (reward) each soul according to their heart". We know God looks (searches) at our hearts, our inner beings. Humans cannot read others' hearts. This all means each of us will be judged by how we live.
G
Shalom Daniel. I hope this all changes soon.
AB, here are the links for the German documentary if you are interested and can understand it. It is in ten 10 minutes segment:
1ère partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MtSaoEZLvQ
2ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fQYOB8XKtI
3ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv9ExBlYViw
4ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uve2Q_8fq0
5ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Is7PwSzDU
6ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_l2_iQqtw
7ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTdzPziJhI
8ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAGPDgs5sgk
9ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmB9MXH2d4I
10ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYcfqnJVQA
re "expressions"
AB - My remark was self-explanatory. This is not just a common expression in Turkey. It's also a common expression in other countries in the region (in Greek, for example, and I have heard a version in Armenian as well) ... in both of those cases it means "stupid" I've heard it using "pumpkin" as well as gourd, squash, etc. I hope everybody gets the (obvious) idea.
And you might love to censor but we're free here. It's a conversation among many isn't it?
re: Akcam
What you said was that Akcam is on the payroll of the Diaspora so of course he can't be objective. But that's an insult to the whole Diaspora and also their organizations - it's just like saying "Nobody who works in a Turkish university can be objective." They can be, it's just that there's a law that criminalizes certain expressed opinions, as we all know. But Akcam was writing before he was published by diaspora organizations and if you think about it, it's natural that they would want to help him be published -- but after the fact. And as I said, he's employed by American (and I think Canadian) universities where there are all kinds of people who are not Armenian in his field and in the field in general so he has to have some credibility with them. Besides, we know the opinions of the universal genocide scholarship. But what you said basically was that nothing the Diaspora publishes can be objective. Which sounds racist to me. This diaspora publication lets you publish your comments here.
AB - if you say you meant" mixed up," I will accept that however, even though it is commonly understood differently elsewhere as I have said. But it's probably better to just say "confused" or something
Hey AB..
I know you are reading everything posted here so read this..
I am getting really sick of your nonsense comments... You are trying to win this case but you are succeeding.. like i said in my previous posts.. stop digging your own grave by writing twisted and incorrect data about the history of my people, the Genocide and calling people empty headed and confused.
My dear Gary.. I will be among thousands who will be marching this saturday... Too bad coward Turkey withdrew its Ambassador.. but then again even if the Ambassador was in the office, he would never stayed at work on April 24th.. like a scary cat he always takes a day off.. spineless lizard...
Gayane
Hey AB and your kind,
Please read below.. make sure you read the bullet points very carefully and over and over and over again.. keep these points in mind because what you read here will be used again and again and again in countries who will be recognizing the Armenian Genocide and condemning Turkey over and over and over again...
Resolution declaring April 24, 2010 As Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day in San Francisco.
WHEREAS, The Armenian people, living in their 3,000 year historic homeland in eastern Asia Minor and throughout the Ottoman Empire, were subjected to severe persecution and brutal injustice by the government of the Ottoman Empire before and after the turn of the twentieth century, including widespread massacres, usurpation of land and property, and acts of wanton destruction during the period from 1894 to 1896, and again in 1909; and
WHEREAS, The horrible experience of the Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Turkish government culminated in 1915 in what is known by historians as the first genocide of the twentieth century; and
WHEREAS, The Armenian Genocide began with the arrest, exile, and murder of hundreds of Armenian intellectuals, and political, religious, and business leaders, starting on April 24, 1915; and
WHEREAS, The Ottoman authorities planned and executed the unspeakable atrocities committed against the Armenian people from 1915 through 1923, which included the torture, starvation, and murder of 1,500,000 Armenians, death marches into the Syrian desert, the forced exile of more than 500,000 innocent people, and the loss of the traditional Armenian homelands; and
WHEREAS, The United States National Archives and Record Administration and the official archives of other countries hold extensive and thorough documentation on the Armenian Genocide; and
WHEREAS, The Honorable Henry Morgenthau, United States Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1913 to 1916, organized and led protests by officials of many countries, among them the allies of the Ottoman Empire, against the Armenian Genocide; and
WHEREAS, Ambassador Morgenthau explicitly described to the United States Department of State the policy of the government of the Ottoman Empire as ‘a campaign of race extermination,’ and was instructed on July 16, 1915, by United States Secretary of State Robert Lansing that the ‘Department approves your procedure. . . to stop Armenian persecution’; and
WHEREAS, Leading news agencies of the time documented the atrocities being committed against the Armenians; and
WHEREAS, Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term ‘genocide’ in 1944, and who was the earliest proponent of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, invoked the Armenian case as a definitive example of genocide in the 20th century; and
WHEREAS, The International Association of Genocide Scholars has repeatedly affirmed that the massacres of Armenians ordered by the Young Turk government constitute genocide; and
WHEREAS, The Republic of Turkey unjustifiably and adamantly denies the occurrence of this crime against humanity while actively continuing to remove traces of Armenian existence, including the destruction of cultural heritage, to this day; and
WHEREAS, The Republic of Turkey suppresses freedom of speech on the matter of the Armenian Genocide and prosecutes its citizens under Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code for statements related to the Armenian Genocide, including Nobel Laureate Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink, an Armenian newspaper editor, who was assassinated as a result of these prosecutions; and
WHEREAS, The passage of nine decades and the fact that few survivors remain who serve as reminders of indescribable brutality and torment, compel a sense of urgency in efforts to solidify recognition, reaffirmation and justice of historical truth; and
WHEREAS, By honoring the survivors and consistently remembering and condemning the atrocities committed against the Armenian people as well as the persecution of the Assyrian and Greek populations of the Ottoman Empire, we guard against repetition of the crime of genocide; and
WHEREAS, California has become home to the largest and most active population of Armenians in the United States, and those citizens have enriched our state through leadership in the fields of academia, medicine, business, agriculture, government, and the arts and are proud and patriotic practitioners of American citizenship; and
WHEREAS, San Francisco Armenian-Americans are predominantly descendants of the few remaining refugees, who witnessed and survived the brutal murder of their families and the destruction of their homes and institutions, and confiscation of all their properties, and
WHEREAS, Those Armenian Genocide survivors who arrived in San Francisco and reestablished themselves, built a thriving community that has created churches, civic and charitable organizations, and a school, and have become an integral part of the dynamic culture of San Francisco, and
WHEREAS, San Francisco is proud to join the Armenian-American community in its commemoration of the 95th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide in an effort to educate others about the tragic loss of life, land, and human rights of the Armenian people and the crime of genocide committed against them; now, therefore, be it
RESOLVED, that the San Francisco Board of Supervisors does hereby declare April 24, 2010 as Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day in the City and County of San Francisco; and, be it,
FURTHER RESOLVED, that the San Francisco Board of Supervisors will send a letter to San Francisco’s elected representatives in the House of Representatives and Senate urging the United States Congress and President Barack H. Obama to give just recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
Darwin jan.. you are so correct.
It is simply degrading... simply put.. shameful to know that only 14 Senators were brave enough to give their signatures.. in addition, I did not see a Republican name on the list.. Did you? Where are they? Are they even in this process?
I pray to God that despite O mama's boy and Clinton the devil woman's rejection, the House Bill passes and the Armenian Genocide gets recognized... Oh I just wait and long for that day....
Gayane
I would like to point out a correction I need to make to my previous comment to AB..
I meant to write " You are trying to win this case but you are NOT succeeding"""
Thank you
Gayane
Thanks Daniel for your letter.
Your English is excellent as it arise from your honest heart.
English is almost my forth language.
In every race good people exists.
No body can crush them down.
Their clear minded- heart speaks
They never deny committed crimes.
Humans are one
But their greediness vary;
One wants to live wealthy
Others’ wealth is their principles…jets.
No one can change
Any one on earth
Every one should remember
Populace comes and go--
The earth stays flat.
Volcanic ashes destroyed billion dollars
Some comparing
With 11th September burned lives.
What a comparison to be!!!
For those “Life is equal to money!”
I pray for every Mighty to hear
To give the people sense to feel
Can I achieve easily?
Once again, I repeat
The Earth will remain flat
Some others will walk on Thy and Us.
But Daniel, Your phrases will remain
Echoing from honest-nests of real humans.
April 22, 2010
Dear Istanbul,
As far as I can see you are misjudging the political agenda in Turkey. Armenia and Armenians have been and will be always discussed in Turkey in terms of what sort of damages Turkey can face due to Armenian peoples and Armenia's claims. I am well aware that in certain 'intellectuals' minds this is an important historical issue that Turkey no matter what should face with. I also believe that Turkey should freely discuss everything. However, for the vast majority of people this is nothing of importance or it is even a betrayal to the nation.
I agree that some moves by some groups will come from Turkey like the commemoration to be held in 24th April in Taksim. If you think that this kind of moves are important, then you are right. However I believe that is not so. People try to reflect that this kind of moves are indications of increasing public awareness regarding to 1915 in Turkey. This has nothing to do with it. What it does only increases the animosity against Armenia and the countries, which pass the resolution in their parliaments.
To Boyajian,
I will look at the links you have provided. Many thanks.
To most of the commentators,
I realize that it is pointless for me to share my views with you. Everything is either black or white. There is no consideration for something in between.
Therefore this will be my last post.
I wish you all good luck in your endeavors.
So now, Armenia will just sit around waiting for Turkey. How nice. Armenia has made thus itself dependent on Turkey.
But Turkey is dependent on Azerbaijan.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize, therefore, that Armenia is now dependent on Azerbaijan.
The international press and the international community are not going to take Armenia's side in this, as we can see from press reports today. They are simply going to say "Well, little Armenia, you are obviously going to have to compromise on the Karabagh issue in order to get anywhere with Turkey, otherwise you will remain isolated."
My point is, you can't gain "brownie points" with the media or the world by being nice.
And notice how Sargsian came to this decision only after he consulted with his Russian boss, Medvedev, in Moscow.
One thing that Sargsian has to do is rip Obama and Medvedev for not explicitly recognizing the genocide on April 24. But he won't do it.
Ever notice how non-Armenians like Stanton have more guts and principle than most Armenians?
Great job President Sarkisian. Protocols seem like a peacefull ideology but with one party hiding for 90 years and not facing the truth , this only will result in dissapointment. Genocide is not a bad business deal to solve over night. Thank you for putting your foot down and letting the people of the world decide what is just.
Interesting news today:
Bravo! to Armenian President Serge Sarkissian for resisting pressure and halting the signing of the Protocols with Turkey due to Turkey's insistence on preconditions being met. This was a very difficult decision, but I believe the right one.
Bravo also to the Human Rights Association of Istanbul for holding an Armenian Genocide Commemoration this Saturday April24,2010 at Haydarpasha Station in Istanbul at 13:30 hour. This act of solidarity with the 1.5 million lost Armenians at the very site from which the original 220 martyrs were deported to the Interior is a powerful statement. We will be with them in spirit.
Wow. This coupled with the rest of the news ... wonder what it all means
I think this is really sad that it was cancelled.
As for the US, I disagree with you too. The US can not disregard Turkey’s importance whatsoever. Turkey is indispensable. Last time it did in March, 2003, when Turkey’s sensitivity about the invasion of Iraq was not taken into consideration, it cost US thousands of its soldiers in Iraq. 75% of the logistic to Iraq goes through Incirlik. No other base can replace Incirlik. If it was the case, the US would have already done that.
A good replacement for Incirlik is obviously necessary. Perhaps somewhere else close by in the Caucusus... or maybe in an independent state in norther Iraq. Thank you for making this clear
Boyajian -- Sadly the conference has been canceled according to the news report here in Armenian Weekly.
Protocols over, conference canceled ... AB says he/she is finished. Wonder if there is a correlation. It's all very sad, especially about the conference. It was hope that maybe progress in dialogue was actually happening.
I also liked our dialogue here.
PS Actually, I think a dialogue about common expressions in the region(across languages) might be interesting and fun :-)
You know what? I've been thinking...
I am tiring of bickering with the melonheads (which I am glad to learn is not an insult, but merely an expression that means mixed up).
Bluster, distraction, parsing of words, denial, and twisted logic, sometimes blatant, sometimes subtle, makes it very difficult to engage in cogent discourse that leads to a healing dialogue. I am very disappointed because I had hoped for more. I am grateful though, that along the way I was treated to truly edifying comments regarding international law and the interpretation of treaties. Thanks to those who take the time to do this.
But truly, we need to stop falling victim to those who engage us in specious arguments and distract us from our focus: Remember the martyrs. Fight for Justice. Attend a Commemoration. Support Human Rights and Genocide Watch groups. Communicate with Legislators. Go grocery shopping. Visit our mothers. Take a shower. Say a prayer...
Now do we really have time for the melonheads?
I think, if we all work together we can save the planet one thing at a time!
I'd like to thank all Armenian commentators, as well as those brave Turkish commentators who stepped in into this discussion, sharing opinions with us that differ fundamentally from Turkish official propaganda clichés.
There are already new developments on the ground and they give me, more than ever, a hope that crimes against humanity will ultimately be condemned by the mankind and historical justice for the Armenian people will prevail.
May God be with us!
Despite my previous comment (which I admit was sarcastic) regarding tiring of bickering, I am sad to read that AB has decided to stop commenting.
AB often expressed the objection that commentators in this forum were being too black and white and unwilling to see things from another perspective. But I was never clear what that other perspective was. Was it ever presented? Did I miss it because I was too thick-headed? We never heard what AB thought was a just resolution to the Turkey-Armenia issue from the point of view of an Armenian living in Turkey, loyal to the nation of Turkey and acknowledging that crimes had been committed against Armenians. A missed opportunity for an important dialogue.
This is the punishment our nation gets for not giving a damn about Armenian democracy.
Had we protested (I did my very best and was shunned for my efforts time and time again) following the openly fixed and fraudulent presidential elections, nevermind the slaughter of 20 innocent Armenians in early March 2008, there would never have been a signed protocols to suspend or halt or whatnot.
I hope we all do the right thing in response to upcoming and likely fixed and fraudulent elections in Armenia.
Janine--a small clarification:
The conference in Ankara was cancelled not the Genocide commemoration in Istanbul. Very sad about the conference, but expected given the current political climate.
Why "Halt" and "Suspend" of protocols are meaningless?
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Armenia was free to decide how it wanted to proceed. "I have expressed our loyalty to the protocols on numerous occasions," he said. "We will press ahead with the process on the principle that treaties are binding."
Turkey got exactly what it wanted out of the Protocol signing - they got recognition to the 1921 Moscow Treaty.
The 1921 Moscow Treaty on “Friendship and Brotherhood” between Soviet Russia and Kemalist Turkey was signed, defining the Armenian sector of the Soviet-Turkish border.
The treaty-signing sides were self-proclaimed formations and the treaty signed by them could not be internationally recognized.
Kemalist Turkey received the right banks of Akhuryan and Araks rivers together with Mount Ararat as a gift from Bolshevist Russia.
The territory of Soviet Armenia then included Nagorno Karabakh and Nakhichevan. The next day after “sovietisation” of Armenia Pravda (Truth) newspaper (issue No 273) published a letter by Joseph Stalin, then People’s Commissar of Nationalities, starting with a greeting “Long Live Soviet Armenia!”. The letter specifically touched upon that issue:
“On December 1, Soviet Azerbaijan, of its own free will, gave up the debated provinces and declared the transfer of Zangezur, Nakhichevan, and Nagorno Karabakh to Soviet Armenia.”
The Moscow Treaty was signed only 4 months after recognizing Nagorno Karabakh and Nakhichevan as parts of Soviet Armenia. However, due to Turkey’s insistence that issue was reconsidered by the very same Moscow treaty, and, as a result, two Armenian lands were handed over to Soviet Azerbaijan by Bolsheviks.
So, the two parties of that treaty – Russia and Turkey – made a decision on transferring into possession to a third state – Soviet Azerbaijan – lands that were inseparable parts of a fourth state – Soviet Armenia.
None of the involved sides were an entity of international law.
What Turkey was trying to achieve above all was the signing of such a point of great importance: On October 10 of 2009 the Moscow Treaty signed in 1921 finally received “international recognition” if not approval.
In December 1973, according to Soviet-Turkish agreement, authorized representatives of three Transcaucasian countries had to sign a point “on invariability of borders””. Gurgen Nalbandyan represented Armenia in Turkey. On behalf of Soviet Armenia he refused to sign that provision “on invariability of borders” despite the Soviet leadership’s pressure.
In brief, it looks like Sagisian and Nalbandian gave away land claims to not only Western Armenia and Nackhichevan, but also Nagorno-Karabagh. Why do you think Erdogan & davitoglu never stops linking Karabagh?
Boyajian wrote:
The conference in Ankara was cancelled not the Genocide commemoration in Istanbul. Very sad about the conference, but expected given the current political climate.
Oh!! Interesting!! Thanks, Boyajian. Better keep those people in our prayers!!!
Msheci wrote:
There are already new developments on the ground and they give me, more than ever, a hope that crimes against humanity will ultimately be condemned by the mankind and historical justice for the Armenian people will prevail
I hope that you will expand on this. I would like to hear your viewpoint of optimism in the situation.
Boyajian said:
We never heard what AB thought was a just resolution to the Turkey-Armenia issue from the point of view of an Armenian living in Turkey, loyal to the nation of Turkey and acknowledging that crimes had been committed against Armenians. A missed opportunity for an important dialogue.
As I think AB might still be reading, I want to make it clear that I say the following, expecting that AB will also read it. I was curious about (her? I think she indicated she was a woman? Someone please correct me if I am wrong). I felt she may be a young person. Although I thought perhaps her optimism was not going to be rewarded, it seemed like the optimism of the young. I don't like to see that crushed or dashed. But she is a smart person, even if we disagree -- and we remember she has been raised in a particular atmosphere designed for all to think alike on these subjects. So, I wish her well and I hope she will put her intelligence to the test of wisdom over time, and be safe! Read more, AB, including the latest book on the trials that has now been published in Turkey -- in its third printing -- co-authored by Dadrian and Akcam.
To paraphrase Boyajian, "May God bless us all!" The original April 24th was shortly after Easter, and today we are still in the Easter season. Our strength has always been our hope and faith in the Resurrection. This I believe.
PS Boyajian et al:
Does anybody know about the lawsuit filed in Turkey challenging 301 and its application? I think it was filed by a Human Rights group???
Boyajian –
I don;t think anyone of us has seen a different perspective from AB and commentators like him. Their comments, in most part, were just fierce opposition to and deliberate distortion of anything that Armenians or sober-minded Turks had to say. Opposition just for the sake of opposition. Nothing constructive.
Having said that, I’m sorry, too, that he left the discussion. Indeed, I am. I’d love to engage in exchange of opinions with as many Turks as possible to get our message through, to make them think for a split second if there could be anything rational in Armenian thinking.
Time moves on and we now have a new reality with Sarkissian’s speech, annulment of the genocide conference in Turkey, meeting at the train station in Istnabul, and, who knows, maybe something we’ve been waiting for almost a century that could happen in Washington in 2 days?
Ooops!! I mixed up Msheci with Boyajian! Sorry!
Msechi wrote:
May God be with us!
Indeed!
Turkish Prime Minister Erdoghan did not know the Turkish Proverb, "If You had Armenian mind from behind (grammatically read, future in the past), You could rule the whole world." Neither U.S. President Obama knew the Muslim wisdom. Russians knew the Proverb and they won, because they deserved it. Armenians as always will successfully remain Russians' younger brother, because of ugly and untalented leaders of their own.
I have to agree with CDEFG... AB voiced his or her opinion loud and clear.. very opposing to what you intelligent individuals shared with all of us.. If AB was that confident in himself or herself, he or she would have not stopped conversing no matter how annoying and frustrating he or she was making me... Just because we did not agree with AB did not have to stop.. why stop now? I don't think he or she is that shy or scared to continue.. so why stop??... It is too bad... but what I am very happy about is that he or she heard what we had to say.. he or she heard the truth that the world knows... he or she received history lessons from those of you who used prominent and legitimate and historical sources... at least we subjected AB to another side of the coin....
I would like to share with you something positive... Roar USA, a company who dedicated 8 or so billboards around the LA are to raise awareness about the Genocide is much to be thankful for.. Below is the e-mail I receive from the individual who iniated the project (he replied to me because i sent an e-mail to thank the company for the doing this great deed not only for Armenians but for everyone living here and around the world)...
The locations of the billboards are as follows:
-La Cienega S/O Whitworth
-Western & Lexington
-Westwood & Santa Monica
-Topanga Canyon & Schoolcraft
-Rosco & Reseda
-Santa Monica W/O Western
-Sepulveda S/O Lucerne
Good Morning Gayane,
Thanks for acknowledging Mr. Vasandani's generous gesture. I am one of the individuals who helped with the billboards. My grandparents themselves were survivors of the Genocide. Just to give you a little background, the way this project started was over dinner with Mr. Vasandani last July. One of the many topics we were discussing that night was the issue of the Genocide and Turkey's denial of it, at one point I started telling my maternal grandfather's experience during the atrocities, at the time Mr. Vasandani expressed interest in dedicating his billboards to raise awareness about the Genocide, I suggested to do it during the month of April. In keeping with his long tradition of following through, in early April Mr. Vasandani reminded me that it was time and we started the work with the help of few very dedicated friends in creating the artwork for the billboards.
Thanks,
Rafi Ekmekian
The fact that 86 senators did sign on portrays America to Turkey as not being strong in its resolve to press the Turks over genocide recognition. Perhaps "God Bless America" should only be spoken in the past tense.
One thing is clear: in its present geopolitical situation Armenia can do almost nothing by its own, even elect an independent, public-spirited, and dedicated president. Not only ‘big brother’ Russia, but also the West wouldn’t want to see a non-susceptible, uncontrolled president elected in Armenia. Of course Serge wouldn’t come up with this speech, had he not been given a go-ahead by his boss in Moscow. But remember that a couple of days before he also held meetings in DC. I fundamentally disagree with those who think that Serge is dependent on Moscow only. I also disagree with those who daydream about democracy flourishing in Armenia without regard for the crude fact that virtually all power centers want to see susceptible, not truly democratic, regimes in countries like Armenia. So, I’m afraid ‘ugly and untalented leaders’ or ‘literate but repressive’ or ‘talented but snakelike’ or ‘good-looking but traitorous,’ whoever they are, whether Serge or Levon, will be there for a quite some time…
All,
Please see below comments from Gayane. The comments are incredible.. I am speechless. Such a hatred.. Jesus Christ.... God Be with you, bless you Gayene!!!!! There is nothing anyone can say to what you are writing..
I am sorry for you...
I guess it was justified by you that so many Turkish Ambassadors were murdered by ASALA Terror group just because ASALA is Armenian!!!!
Portraying any Turkish man/ ambassador as spineless lizardand names just shows your so called justified hatred..
Quote''''''''''''
gayane
April 22, 2010 | Permalink | Reply
Hey AB..
I know you are reading everything posted here so read this..
I am getting really sick of your nonsense comments… You are trying to win this case but you are succeeding.. like i said in my previous posts.. stop digging your own grave by writing twisted and incorrect data about the history of my people, the Genocide and calling people empty headed and confused.
My dear Gary.. I will be among thousands who will be marching this saturday… Too bad coward Turkey withdrew its Ambassador.. but then again even if the Ambassador was in the office, he would never stayed at work on April 24th.. like a scary cat he always takes a day off.. spineless lizard…
Gayane
Unquote'''''''''''''
Kevork,
I'd love to see the Diasporans protesting just once against fake and fraudulent elections in Armenia, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen. Unfortunately, the Diasporan mentality in that protesting one illegitimate regime after another, that we in Armenia endure for the past 19 years, may lead to domestic instability and resumption of war on the borders, prevail all the time. I think the Diasporans need to find ways to settle in Armenia and in this way influence the domestic politics given their expertise, connection, and political capital. Otherwise, criticizing from remote shores has little effect, I'm afraid...
Had Serge been a legitimate and public-spirited president, he wouldn't sign the protocols in the first place. But since he's not a president that enjoys broad-based public support, he does what he's told to do from Moscow and Washington. Thus, instead of denouncing the damned protocols he just suspended them...
I agree with you Dave.. and hence that is the sad part...
Gayane
I pray for those who will be there, and thank the Istanbul branch of the Human Rights Association, Committee Against Racism and Discrimination.
INDEED, THEY ARE BOTH "LEGEND" IN THIER OWN CHARACTER'S.
BLESS THEM BOTH........
Kurt – Several commentators here, including Gayane, were frustrated by AB’s insult addressed to me as the one whose ‘head is like watermelon,’ i.e. ‘stupid’ or ‘empty-headed.’ Thus her emotional response to AB, I believe.
As for ASALA, no terror is justified, but you (deliberately?) miss the cause-consequence connection here. ASALA’s actions in 1970s-1980s, however unjustifiable they were, were the consequence of wiping out millions of Armenians back in 1915-1921. Their actions wouldn’t happen had the deliberate and systematic extermination of Armenians by Turks in the most barbaric form not happened decades before.
Look into causes before talking about the consequences…
Mister Kurt,
Calm down please.. and stop your hysteria.... and you don't have to point out everyone to read my comments.. everyone read it already.. Thank you..
What I said, I stand by it.. and let me explain to you the difference between hatred and fed up... if you dont' know the distinction...
I want to point out that Hate is not necessarily a bad word. If you love what's right you're going to hate what's wrong. If you love health you will hate sickness. If you love flowers you will hate weeds. What is wrong is to hate PEOPLE... in my case, I never said I HATED TURKS/THE AMBASSADOR.. what I hate is the WRONG the Turks denialists are carrying out and that includes your Ambassador .... please read this very carefully... in my opinion, those who hide behind their closed doors and deny justice, truth, impose gag rules by force but never show the courage and the balls to stand up for what is RIGHT and face the music against all odds ARE AND WILL BE spineless lizards.. get it?.. this does not mean in any shape or form that I hate them....But what I can tell you is that I have fed up with all the nonsense, lies, and denials your country spits upon the world and I am fed up with people like you and AB who support the WRONG, the UGLY and the LIES... again, this does not mean I hate YOU... I hate THE ACT... I hope that clarifies the confusion..
and you calling me a hater without any valid and solid reason is an insult to me.. which tells me how much class you have.. however, as my God's child, I will not take that as an insult and will forgive your inappropriate gesture.
let it be known that the word hate has been around for thousands of years. Jesus said in Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
In my opinion, if you have real love for anything or anybody you will also have real hate for whatever harms that which you love. Does this make sense to you Kurt? and don't worry.. My Lord Saviour already accepted me as his child because he knows i am on the RIGHT SIDE.
Have a good afternoon sir..
Gayane
I wonder how many people would show up given the general antagonistic, Armenophobic climate in Turkey and Article 301 hanging like axe over the heads of honorable Turks...
To: Gayane Jan
Thank you for sharing about the billboards. Thank Rafi & Mr. Vasandani for their contribution. My heart and mind will be with you and the many others on Saturday. You will ofcourse write about the response from your local public.
I will read it with huge ineterest! I have very close friends living in your city. :)
Do you listen to Internet radio www.voiceofvan.net ? It is just beautiful music
+ alot of other programs. Another one is www.nareg.fm
G
G
Gees I am truly sorry Khachig jan that it was cancelled. It's too bad.
To Gayane, Janine, Manoushag & others
I have been meaning to tell you...if your mamas are alive please thank them for me for raising the brave women you have become! I would like my 2 daughters to learn from you! Maybe? Someday?
G
Turkey canceled it to make room for a party Kemal Attaturk style.
Balakian and Atom Egoyna have been very active behind the scenes trying to change the wording back to the original without the ludicrous disclaimer.
yikes, meant to write "Egoyan".
Dear Daniel: Thank you for your letter and for your humanly remarks. It is appreciated by me and I am sure by my brothers and sisters.
If Turkey will not open its border with Armenia until the Karabagh/Artsakh issue is solved and Armenian troops are withdrawn from "Azerbaijan", then Armenia should impose a similar pre-condition:
Armenia will not open its border with Turkey until the Cyprus issue is solved and all Turkish troops are withdrawn from Cyprus.
After all, if Turkey cares so much for its alleged ethnic and religious kin in "Azerbaijan" (I use quotes because Azerbaijan is a fake country dreamed up in the early 20th century; see Reuben Galichian's books), then cannot Armenia similarly care for its religious and ethnic kin in Cyprus and make an analogous demand?
You may think I am not serious, but I am. The media, the world, and even many Armenians, have gotten so used to the Turkish precondition, repeated adnauseum, regarding Artsakh that the Turkish position actually seems to make sense when of course it doesn't at all.
Armenia and Artsakh have simply failed to articulate their case well and have let the media misreport the facts. Armenia has failed to confront Turkish illogic in a public way that would make people listen. Instead Sargsian gives bland, boring, cliched speeches. They put people to sleep. Surely Armenians are capable of countering the crude, ignorant PR put out by half-baked Turkish fruitcakes.
It's sad but it fell through. The turks annuled it... it's a shame.
Kurt, please don't think I am making fun of you ... I am not.
But we in the West call our own politicians far worse things than "spineless lizard." And I guarantee you that Sarkissian has been called far worse things by Armenians LOL
Gayane, great to know about the billboards. What a cool idea.
CDEFG - we can hope. Maybe Sarkissian is a good chess player. But we never know with this administration. So many of us supported them. I supported Obama very much. Obama knows the truth and made a promise and so does Hillary. Is "spineless lizard" strong enough for the failure to take the stand they promised? I really don't know but I'm pretty disgusted with how dumb the whole thing is. I think the most dumb is the way the Turkish government will not put this issue behind it but rather keeps it alive. But I'm not a politician.
Yes Janine, it was sad that it was cancelled. I am sorry for Khatchig Mouradian.
I THINK , ERDOGHAN IS WALKING IN THE SAME PATH OF HIS ANSESSTERS
THE OTOMANS ...........
There is NO country in the Balkans, in the Caucasus and in the Middle East that could replace Turkey in terms of strategic importance.
Give me a name of the country other than Turkey and I will tell you why it wont happen .
Maybe we could start with armenia? :-)
Who wants to bet?
Will Obama say the magic word on April, 24?
I put 3$ . He will! :-)
Gayane the Democrats are the party of the majority. They are in charge of most committees. There may be something else going on here. These committee heads usually consult their constituents before they put their seal on anything. Why Senator Dodd (Democrat) chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs opted out is beyond me. I'm pretty sure we have more backing in Congress but it would have been impressive to see 70 or 80 signatures on the letter. A strong message to the president would have gotten world wide attention.
Al Pacino played an Armenian once before as well, in the 1982 film "Author! Author!" - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083598/.
Mersi Gary jan... Very sweet of you to say that.. I will tell me mother.. She is a 59 years old Armenian women with very Armenian traditional ways.. she hurts for our country and people and wants so much for her two children to continue the ARmenian heritage.. even though my brother is with a Bulgarian girl (a gorgeous one if I may say so myself.:) ... whose ancestors were also massacred by the Turks, she is very much like an Armenian.. in addition, she respects and follows the Armenian traditions.. She is a great girl but knowing my lovely darling mother, she is still uneasy about the interrational possibly marriage..:) she will get used to it.. hence why she wants an Armenian son in law very badly..:) i love her to death and because of her and my entire family, I have such strong connection with my culture, heritage and will fight against all odds to bring justice to our people... you can count on me for that Gary...
and Gary jan.. your daughters will grow up with a strong connection and love to their roots because they have you as their father.. It will be you who will teach them and carry them to be what they are... proud Armenians..:)
Janine jan.. Obama is worst than a spineless lizard... I have lost respect for him and until he remedy the matter with a strong and positive come back, i will continue to think of him as spineless human being... i hope Obama does not get offended because I called him spineless human being.. and I hope Kurt does not think I hate him because I called him that......
By the way,
KCET AIRS 'ARMENIAN EXILE' AND 'MY SON SHALL BE ARMENIAN' AS PART OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE MEMORIAL DAY ON APRIL 24
Los Angeles, CA - March 30, 2010 - KCET, public media for Southern and Central California, presents a special live night of programming featuring back-to-back documentaries by filmmaker Hagop Goudsouzian in observance of Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day on Saturday, April 24. Goudsouzian, a Canadian filmmaker, and Larry Zarian, Vice Chair of the California State Transportation Commission and former mayor of Glendale, host the evening, which begins with Armenian Exile at 7:00 p.m., followed by My Son Shall Be Armenian at 8:30 p.m.
In Armenian Exile, Goudsouzian paints a self-portrait in which he pursues a greater understanding of his cultural roots.
In 1988, Nagorno-Karabakh's war for independence was in the headlines worldwide. Halfway across the world in Canada, Goudsouzian's peaceful world was suddenly shaken: "I had forgotten I was Armenian, until I saw the courage of these people who had never forgotten who they were and knew what they had to do."
Then, again in 1991, the independence of Armenia triggered a new beginning for Goudsouzian. At this point, he embarked on what he considers his most important adventure - to touch this mythical land in search of his roots.
In Armenian Exile, Goudsouzian travels to Armenia for the first time, in search of the ultimate connection with his forgotten and sometimes ignored identity. Seeking clarity of both history and self, Goudsouzian's reflection on Armenian identity is also at the heart of his next installment, My Son Shall Be Armenian.
My Son Shall Be Armenian follows Goudsouzian and five Montreal men and women of Armenian descent to Armenia in search of survivors of the 1915 Armenian Genocide. Through interviews with elders and the touching accounts of his fellow travelers, Goudsouzian crafts a dignified and poignant film on the need to make peace with the past in order to turn toward the future. This documentary is broadcast in French with English subtitles.
Encore broadcasts of Armenian Exile and My Son Shall Be Armenian will air on Sunday, April 25 at 1:00 p.m. and 2:00 p.m., respectively.
Gary jan.. thanks to you, I have already watched My Son Shall be Armenian...:)
Gayane
So what would have happened if Armenia had gone ahead and accepted the protocols? How much of a pressure would this have put on Turkey to follow suit in spite of the preconditions it was imposing?
Gary jan.. Thank you so much for the radio sites..
I love Nareg.com.. I am going to share these two links with everyone...
Gayane
Maybe you could just voluntarily tell us why you think it would be impossible instead of playing children's games
Do you mean, having a strategical importance, will give you right, to not acknowledge the Armenian genocide, committed by your government predecessors.
MR. PRESIDENT SARGSYAN STAY FIRM ARMENIAN NATION WILL SUPPORT YOU. NOW ARMENIAN SOMEWHAT WERE RELIEVED SINCE FINALLY YOU REALIZE WHAT DIASPORA AND ALL ARMENIAN HAVE BEEN WARNING YOU A LONG, LONG TIME AGO. (AVELI LAV E USH KAN YERBEK)........ MR. PRESIDENT EVEN THOUGH NOW YOU ARE ON RIGHT TRACK BUT IT IS NOT ENOUGH... YOU STILL HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO . JUST PLACE MUCH RELIANCE TO YOUR PEOPLE.
ISHKHAN BABAJANIAN MD.
APRIL. 22, 2010 USA
It is not that Armenian's have no guts to speak out, it is because what ever they say sounds byes and not credible, because of the fact that they are Armenians.
My own grand mother was a little girl who lost all her family and had to flea to Iran, in order to escape persecution by Turkish government, not for any crime but only for being an Armenian.
It is because of all the Armenian's and their hard work that people are becoming familiar With the word genocide as well as Armenian's. Any effort however little is better than none at all.
I know as an Armenian stock in England I can not even find Armenian's to talk to let alone being able to speak up for genocide. Therefore I value all the efforts (however little) that the others make.
Seda Vartanian
Hye, Armenia's role reminds me of the film, THE MOUSE THAT ROARED, with
Peter Sellers.... Manooshag
Gary M - thank you.
Last night at one of the genocide commemoration events they did something unique. There were readings (mostly in English) of the works of some of the writers who were rounded up on the night of April 24th. Most of them were killed, a few managed to survive, and not all of those were able to retain their sanity from what they had seen and experienced. The works were mostly from before the genocide - but even those were sad, telling of the harsh lives people led, the poverty, destitution and even despair for a better life, and in the years before the genocide the things that would happen like the kidnapping and forced conversion of girls, the murders ... as an American it reminded me of the lynchings of the south but with a very particular element of the region in the crimes. But one reading was the words of an eye witness, a missionary whose story was told by the writer, who saw horrific things in the genocide. I cannot forget what I heard about what was done to a group of girls, the absolute racist impulse to degrade. And, of course, we all know the stories we have heard from our community, relatives, grandparents.
We have the truth ... bless you and your daughters! :-)
There's a saying from the feminist movement we could adapt: "Armenian sisterhood is powerful" :-)
I am sorry for you. You will have to wait 5oo years more...
Turkish Republic is stronger than ever.
Don't forget! 21st century will be the Turkish Century.
You will see.
Tomorrow is April 24 and we will all, once again, reflect on the worst humanitarian tragedy of the 20th century, with sadness and nostalgia. I say 'worst' because the genocide took place on ancient Armenian soil, not foreign soil, where Armenians had lived for thousands of years. That said, I suspect that 95 years after the fact, today's Turkish politicians are honestly embarrassed by the genocide, and would truly like to see this issue fade away, as it reflects badly on their nation, even if it was committed by a gang of thugs who were only marginally Turkish. As we can see, the answer really lies within Turkey itself. Removing the restrictions of 301, opening up internal dialogue and encouraging freedom of thought and speech on this issue are all part of the process, but only when Turkey can admit to all its people that this blemish took place and it now apologizes to the descendants of its former citizens, will it actually become an historical event that can be commemorated by both peoples for the massive tragedy it really was. Armenians lost big, but so did Turkey. If nothing else, Armenians have every right to remind Turkey and the world of their pain, each and every year until eternity. It doesn't mean we can't be friends, but true friends remember each other's pain with honesty and sincerity. That's what we all need.
Ahmet – The only reason why Turkey has been ‘strategically important’ for the West is because there was a Cold War confrontation, a NATO-Warsaw Pact confrontation until early 1990s. But it is clear to policy experts that Turkey’s ‘importance’ is now waning. The country grows more and more unreliable for the West both in terms of its deviation from supporting NATO troops in the Iraqi war and growing tendency towards Islamism. The human rights situation is terrible, Hrant Dink’s assassination and repressions against your intellectuals under the Article 301 have left negative impression on the world.
In addition, several plans exist to replace Incirlik. A new NATO base ‘Bondsteel’ is almost finished in Kosovo and there are US-Israel plans to build another one in the Southern Kurdistan. All nuclear weapons are also considered to be taken out from Incirlik.
These are the developments to start with. You may insert a smiley face next to Armenia, but you never know what can happen in the future. However, events on the ground show that Turkey’s behavior is becoming less tolerable by the West…
Ahmet,
For Armenians, the recognition of martyrdom in the hands of the Turks is of utmost importance. This act of barbarity has left an indelible mark on our psyche. The genocide of the whole Western Armenian population and ancient civilization is not a ‘magic’ word for us. It is also not something that we could be invited to bet on. Whether Obama uses the word or not, we know what happened and the world knows, too. Had your government not denied the fact for 95 years, we’d be able to live better lives now and have good neighborly relations.
So, do you want to bet if your government utters an apology and admit guilt eventually? I put $1…
Karekin, thanks for your comment, but I need to ask you about one thing you wrote:
even if it was committed by a gang of thugs who were only marginally Turkish.
Could you please explain this? I don't really understand... I have heard some things but it's not clear to me what it is about.
Wow, Karekin, what a striking metamorphosis in your views as compared to some preposterous ones in the past, especially the one that derogated Christ.
I’m impressed, truly, by the one above. Still slightly puzzled, though, in which of your comments you were sincere…
Whenever I talk to other Armenians, we always mourn the fact that the biggest obstacle to achieving our future goals is not Turkey, the US, Moscow, or Israel. It's Armenia itself, or rather, I should say, its "leaders". Corrupt, inarticulate, deaf, dumb, blind, back-stabbing, and in so many ways de-nationalized.
Dave,
I have to agree with you. That’s an argument that I myself often use. On the other hand, what can you possibly expect from ‘leaders’ who broke from a totalitarian, undemocratic regime just 18 years ago and from a nation whose most recent statehood ended in the 14th century? Hardly any new state formation acted differently that new Armenia. Of course, there’s an element of national characteristics and mentality to this, but that, too, comes from the lack of state mentality, oppression by foreign powers, constrained geographical location, and tragedies that left an indelible mark on our psyche. This is not a justification to the behavior of the present leadership, but just an attempt to widen the picture.
I think the Diasporan Armenians need to start exploring ways to engage more actively in Armenia and thus influence the domestic politics, utilizing their political and economic capital, as well as democratic way of life that they experienced in the West. Otherwise, it’ll take a long time for truly national leaders, public-spirited and honorable individuals to become leaders in Armenia. Note also that foreign power centers are essentially not interested to see such leaders in smaller states: they need spineless, de-nationalized thugs susceptible to political influence and control.
This is good news. Glad to hear the conference will go ahead.
Great article, Lalai.
You put into words what I experienced with and felt for my grandfather. He went to all events regarding the genocide. Up until a year before his death, at the age of 105, he went to march in Ottawa.
How lucky we were to have known our grandfathers.
To: Dear Gayane
Thanks for the kind words. Also for informing the forum about Hagop Goudsouzian's films. I found out only yesterday about Armenian Exile.
I am a few years older than your mom. Got married late. My daughters are similar ages to you and your brother? :) I married a Mennonite girl from Manitoba. Mennonites were persecuted for being Christ followers, out of Europe, to New Russia (Ukraine) and then many slaughtered remnants came mostly to Canada. We have been seperated since July 1998. Pressures of life in general.
Never in my wildest dreams did I think my wife would hold onto the bitterness and refuse to return to our marriage. My daughters are wounded without any of it being their fault. So I do my best to teach them what is right! My Ankine Malkhassian is on Face Book! My sister's name is also Ankine.
My thoughts will be with all of you over there tomorrow. May God give you strength.
G
To Dear Janine
Thanks for the kind words. If you haven't already, please read "The Burning Tigris" & "Armenian Golgotha", "A Shameful Act", "Passage To Ararat".
If you are (or even if not) in the Protest Gatherings tomorrow...my thoughts will be with you. May God give you strength. I already know full well, about how fearless you are!
G
My comments here are always sincere, from the heart, but also based on knowledge, facts and research. The members of the CUP who masterminded the genocide were, like Armenians, Ottoman citizens, but they were not ethnically Turkish. I would encourage you to do some research on your own to learn more about this aspect of the genocide, because I think it helps to explain today's dilemma in no small part. It should also allow today's Turkish government to distance themselves from the entire event, but obviously that has not happened yet because those who attained power as a result of the genocide are still around and very entrenched. Though, in due time, I trust and hope this will change - for everyone involved...both Turks and Armenians.
Concerning Karekin's remarks about the need for modern Turks to come to terms with their past, beautifully said.
I often think that the recognition of the Genocide is the Armenian's cross to bear. Painstakingly for years and years now, we Armenians have to pursue this issue, often times against nearly insurmountable odds. Nevertheless we continue, if for no other reason than because it is what's right to do, not just for us, but for the world, and perhaps most importantly, for the Turks.
I think it was Taner Akcam who talks about rescuing the Turkish soul. One can only imagine the terrible burden on Turks to deal with their past without the assistance of Truth. We Armenians most definitely have a burden that keeps on us like a dog on a bone. But I gladly accept this burden compared to that of the Turks. In this sense we must press on as Christ teaches us, to love our enemies, not by denying the truth, but by helping others, e.g. the Turks, to embrace it.
Karekin says it well, "It doesn't mean we can't be friends, but true friends remember each other's pain with honesty and sincerity. "
Gary M - may God be with you and your daughters and give good guidance for you and them as they grow. I'm really sorry about the loss of their mother, but you sound like a very loving father and I think love is what counts with children. The rest is secondary.
Karekin - I don't really understand who was not a Turk. So I would like to hear more about this. But anyway, another thought strikes me: the gendarmes and all the people who carried out the brutal massacres, village by village, person by person, even against the small children, mothers, old people, boys and girls, etc etc -- the ones who slaughtered the young men conscripted into battalions -- were they all not Turkish too?
Last night when I heard the writing that took place in the early years of the 20th century, before the genocide, I was so struck by the hardship and difficulties and random violence and murder they depicted of Armenian citizens living in the Ottoman Empire, and writing of the period after 1908 but before the genocide, etc when there were even MPs of Armenian descent ... it was so oppressive, so sad. It all reminded me of the KKK on a grand, national scale, as if they had taken over the whole country. All of it is so racist in ways nobody here in the West can imagine if they knew all the horror
I have heard, also, a statistic about the kidnapping of Armenian girls, and those lost during the genocide. The estimate was that today 1 in 5 Turks may be "biologically" part Armenian because the incidence of this was so high. If so, what does that say about this racism? Those who try to be more "pure" and damn the minority? It is a lot of maturing to go from that place to one that accepts humanity in its fullness.
Fine, just as long as we all realize in our alleged excitement that holding a conference is not the goal of the Armenian Cause.
If, for example, the Palestinians were to hold a conference on the Nakba of 1948 (and I presume that Israel has allowed many such conferences) that does not get Palestinians what they really want, which is justice in terms of land and other compensation.
Please realize that Turkey is allowing this conference for its own reasons, so it can say "Look, we are discussing the events of 1915 just as you wanted - therefore, don't pass any more genocide resolutions ."
I hope we all know that the US and other countries just love this sort of nonsense. They buy it hook, line, and sinker. We Armenians enable this sort of thing by our letters to the editor which say "Pretty please, boss Turk, I have PTSD and need you to admit what you did, Mommy and Daddy Turk, so we Armenians don't have to go to psychiatrists anymore."
God, I hate that sort of moaning and weeping,m don't you?
We get ourselves into big trouble when we think of the Genocide as the be-all and end-all of the Armenian Cause. We have let down our ancestors who never in their worst nightmares imagined that all we would ask for is a "pretty please" by the Turks that will satisfy shnooks like the AAA.
When are we going to get off this Genocide kick and start getting real about what we want? God save us from our Armenian academicians.
Haven't we learned from history? "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." The Germans had to come to grips, although they all knew, that it took pressure from outside forces to finally make then face up to the holocaust. The Germans are today held up to the world for becoming one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the world.
The Turks know. Until they realize that the world has an eschewed vision of their world, they're not going to fessup. I say keep up the pressure and maybe someday the United States will retake its rightful place as the torch bearer of freedom and democracy in the world.
Sooner or later turks will pay for their monsterous crimes agiant many peoples including the Armenias.
Ahmet,
Keep pumping your turkish self up. This is because of your typically deep psychlogical defeciacy representing nothing but what is bad and evil in this world.
your "turk" is nothing but centuries of genocide and oppesion and forced conversion into a "turk". making it a complete hoax.
Dear Garbis,
Thank you for the wonderful article on my Uncle Peter. He was such a joy to be with and always had many, many stories to tell. He was so vivacious and loved life. Again, thanks for sharing your experiences. I hope others who didn't know him will understand the true meaning of being a survivor.
Are you suggesting that Levon Ter-Petrosian would've been any different? He WAS our president and was impeached in 1998 for high treason; he agreed to have Artsakh be under Azeri rule. He also had an extremely corrupt government and was the first person to practice large-scale electoral fraud. He is also in favour of the protocols except for the part about a "historical commission". Levon and the HoHoSha are a fake opposition. Also, 10 people died on March 1st, not 20; 8 of them were civilians and the other 2 were police officers.
Narek,
What you want to see blinds your eyes and you can not see what is happening. I am sorry for you.
After the cold war, Turkey's importance has increased considerably. Turkey is the source of stability in an area.
Why would Turkey support troops in Iraq? Who supports them to begin with? If this is your criterion to say that Turkey is leaving the west, then Germany, France are not westerns.
There is nothing more natural for Turkey to embrace Islam. The more Turkey becomes Islamic, the stronger, more prosperous it will get. Islam is our religion, our culture. Things are going back to what they are supposed to be. I am glad for that.
Before talking about Turkey being Islamic, you better talk about how significant role the armenian church has in your daily life.
A base in Kosovo can only be a small substitute for Incirlik. Why would Kosovo be important? There are bases in Germany and Kosovo is less than an hour from Germany.
USA would not invest a major base in north Iraq where things are very unpredictable. USA needs Turkish air space for all the combinations to get to the middle east and afghanistan.
Turkey's importance is not only because of Incirlik. Turkey's population, strategic location, dynamic economy (15th largest economy in the world), strong army make Turkey inevitably the most important country in its region.
So, Narek. Remove your armenian glasses and take a look at the real world. you will see things very differently! :-)
THIS IS RESULTS OF FREEZING THE PROTOCOLS,
INSTEAD TO DRAW THE SIGNATURES FROM PROTOCOLS
WHICH IS STILL IN FULL POWER ANY MINUTES, THAT'S WHY
THEY RE START THE CONFERENCE, THIS FREEZING IS VERY DANGER
GIVING TO TURKS BIG CHANCE TO WIN THE DIALOGE UNDER NEW
PRECONDITIONS!!! GOD HELP ARMENIANS AROUND THE WORLD
LONG LIVE A. R. F.
Boyajian's thought and opinions are always riveting and well worth the read. He can teach the mass media about informed reporting and how to be fair and objective. It is regrettable they remark about important events of which they have little knowledge.
Kurt,
If you think Gayane's words 'scary cat' or 'spineless lizard' are derogatory, then you'd rather take a look at something I came accross while reading this discussion.
Author: your fellow Turk AB --
"GAYANE, I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE BLIND OR STUPID..."
Gayane's words simply pale before such explicit indecency.
Don't get exited; we should always "Eat" first and say "Thanks" after; so let's wait and see how close they get to the reality that we know; if they get to 1,500,000 + Lands then we are in.
How Can We Forget Our Genocide?
My dears, tell us how we sufferers can,
How anyone can forget walk on any blood run?
That became stuck on enormous lands.
Innocent virgins’ blood flooded the rivers:
Euphrates and Tigris until they reached
The desert of Der Zor (Mesopotamian sands).
The small branches of the rivers (Khabour)
Changed lanes as corpses blocked its swift route.
Spring limped streams colored red;
That was our blood, stained,
Bedouins describe the scene and say,
“The view can change minds of sane . . . insane!”
Syrian people cannot forget what they saw.
They enlighten their grandchildren till now to know.
“Armenians were massacred savagely here.
Corpses thrown away in our land; in bare.”
Thrown in our deserts, under the sun-burned sand,
We saw them with our eyes and cried!
We saved some; we could not save all of around.
We were with Ottomans in the same bloodbath, in fight.
They hanged our thirty-two
Cleverest nationalists in town—
Syrian, Lebanese, Palestinians;
Committed by Jamal Pasha**, the inhuman.
Savagely, heartlessly done,
A well-known killer had brutal hands.
Arabs called him Jamal Alsaffah
As much as cruelty, he did under God’s sunlight.
Jamal, the butcher, not only ordered endless massacres.
He also followed the Armenian orphans outside Turkish towns,
Saved by others, ordered to kill them all by any means they can;
Make them unable to seek revenge in the future from criminals’ fan.
Younger than eight years, took them as servants
Raising them in homes, changing their religion,
Forgetting their name origin, calling them Hamshen.
Said are thousands of them still living in the Turk’s land!
Many Turkish writers were too young
To see the events—the ‘killing plague’.
Nevertheless, they seems affected by sore stories,
Their mothers incessantly narrated from deep hark.
Thus, they published the unwritten events
Sparking their honest sense of the deep dark—
To say Armenians were killed in their living park.
That was their land, before invaders—their own race:
The Mongols, the Seljuk’s, finally the Ottomans sharks.
Intelligent Turks admit and repeat,
“We killed them and we deny.
What tragedy is this? Why stay senseless.
Why can’t we confess past proven savageness?”
They wanted only to keep one Armenian,
To put in a museum, there to memorialize!
That was a proof that they killed all, none left to cry.
Proud to keep only one man mutilated, not to die.
To give lessons for minorities to see and sigh!
This was their main aim, known by historians,
News transmitted from East to West by fans.
But no one saved us, till most of us grew up orphans.
New generation of Turks who constantly shout,
Throw stones on the French’s houses with crowds.
Those and their ancestors committed confirmed crimes,
Slaughtered, raped, and robbed our hearts most kinds.
At one time, they were describing in pride,
Saying, “We killed
gawers, infidels.
We threw them out of our ways.
In deserts, in rivers, in wells, in hays,
Burning them in churches; in their praying place.”
Many heard stories of their pride in killing Arab scholars’, race.
Now their grandchildren want to paint old ceilings to raze!
Refuting to recognize their criminals’ intrinsic chase.
They shout and organize denial strikes to haze, brace;
To say, “We’re innocent of spilling gawer’s bloods’ on our face.”
In their sinful conscious, they know what they did,
What they are, they carry genes of criminals indeed.
They never will change. Needed to sentence the scavengers
By those who heartily act, protect humans’ identity.
Yet recognize our genocide seeding law, stating reality.
Why would Turkey support troops in Iraq? Who supports them to begin with? If this is your criterion to say that Turkey is leaving the west, then Germany, France are not westerns.
There is nothing more natural for Turkey to embrace Islam. The more Turkey becomes Islamic, the stronger, more prosperous it will get. Islam is our religion, our culture. Things are going back to what they are supposed to be. I am glad for that.
Okay, so embracing Islam includes embracing Iran and all its policies? Is this what we are hearing?
USA would not invest a major base in north Iraq where things are very unpredictable
You mean like when Turkey feels like bombing the Kurds in northern Iraq? I see. This is a strange version of stability. And an even stranger version of what the US seems to need in the region.
Erdogan also seems to have savaged the protocols process. That's something the US and Russia are counting on to work, not to have Turkey insist on things not in the protocols. Did you say something about stability??
Great Lalai,
I like this phrase it actualy stanzates.
Will stay soulfully great and forever...!
"As scattered beads with various textures and colors,
We come to embellish and make the necklace—
Once violently snatched off—
Stronger and brighter,
More solid than ever."
It had proved to be impossible for the organizers to find a venue, as some venues had declined to host the conference because of security considerations.
Wow, someone tell this to AB
It is not clear at this point whether those participants outside of Turkey will be able to attend the conference on such short notice
No comment necessary. I can only imagine how outraged and freaked out the State Dept handlers must have been when the conference was canceled. I frankly think despite the bluster that the Turkish govt is panicking and has no idea where to go next in this changing situation. Obviously governments are going to continue to recognize the genocide and the EU at least has made this perfectly clear.
Karekin –
You wrote: ‘My comments here are always sincere, from the heart, but also based on knowledge, facts and research.’
I’d like to believe you. I truly do, but I can’t. So you all your previous comments were always sincere, from the heart, and so on? Well, then let me bring them up to refresh your memory. I quote only some of them:
1. [Jesus Christ is] ‘some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks’ (You never apologized for derogating the feelings of Christian believers, BTW)
‘Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey and are probably thankful they’re not there now. Perhaps they should thank Talaat Pasha for that’
‘Demanding recognition [of genocide] is not helpful or productive’
[It is a stuff of fantasy] ‘that eastern Anatolia should be returned to Armenians’
‘Christianity is not an Armenian religion… Christianity too, is an ‘alien’, non-Armenian religion’
[Regarding the genocide], ‘the problem is always that there are many truths… Every human being makes mistakes, large or small’
‘Turkey wasn’t some backward colony, it was one of the world’s most important and sophisticated empires for hundreds of years’
‘From the first arrival of Turks in the 11th C until 1915, Armenians did quite well… Under Turkish rule… Armenians did very well for a very long period of time’
‘Armenians are the original children of Anatolia. Armenians need to stop this ‘us and them’ mentality….because we are all of the same land’
10. ‘[Armenians], stop insulting a language that your ancestors spoke for probably 900 years or more’
11. ‘Young Turks were [not] the only ones to ever genocide Armenians in the course of history’
Thank you Anahit jan...
Kurt was screaming bloody murder because I called their Ambassador a spineless lizard....i thought he was going to call the gendarms, soliders and sultan to arrest and put me in a dungeon because I offended him ... Seriously.. what a joke....
He also did not see the insulting word that AB called Msheci... I was absolutely pissed by that comment.... however, like I said before, Kurt and his kind are confused...He uttered our Jesus Christ's name in his comment to somehow cleanse my soul and bless me..however, it is him who needs cleansing and needs to be forgiven.. I have forgiven him because it is not his fault...Hope Jesus Christ will bless his confused soul....
Mersi norits Ahanit jan.....
Gary jan... your daughters are lucky to have you as their father.. Children are led by example.. and you as a father is an absolute great example of faith, righteousness, truth and of course Armenian... They can't be anything but true Armenians.. You deserve the best Gary jan.. and thank you for always providing positive support... :) I will try to locate your daughter on the facebook..:)
Janine jan... as I commented in one of my previous posts, the fact that our beautiful women were snatched either by force or barter or free by the Turkish wealthy or soldiers, just breaks my heart... because of this, Turks look much like Armenians and 1 out of 5 Turks probably do have Armenian gene...
Karekin is still an enigma to me.. I am sorry.. regardless his comment that had a COMPLETE different twist to it, more positive than any of his older comments, I still do not believe he is a true 100%...Sorry....
I will march for those who is not in LA, or can't make it..
God Bless our people and country....
Gayane
Gayane
Darwin jan...I agree with you .... we should never relax on this matter until we get what we are after... The world pressure should continue ...
Gayane
Gayane - when you said this
i thought he was going to call the gendarms, soliders and sultan to arrest and put me in a dungeon because I offended him
I started laughing out loud. Only we could have the sense of humor we have from this event .. Ever notice how Armenians always have to laugh and joke when we are together? Thank you for reminding me and making us laugh :-)
Dave and Armen.. You both are absolutely correct.
Dave you are correct to say that we are our own enemy.. Until we walk, talk, think, act and win as one unitied body, many matters will not get accomplished to our satisfaction..
Armen you are correct in saying that Diaspora needs to find ways to be more involved and have more influence in ARmenia.. This is an absolute necessity. I wish that we had the power to vote for our officials in Armenia..
Gayane
Just want to commend the writer Lalai Manjikian for a beautiful, lyrical essay. Loved the imagery.
Absolutely true jbo...
I wish we Armenians in Diaspora have more involvement and power to vote to overthrow such illegitimate officials and start rebuilding our country on true values, honest and caring people who will fight for our country and stand up to those who try to bully her...
I am not really happy about the suspension either.. I wish he would have withdrew all together.... However, USA and Russia would not allow that to happen.. THey have too much investement in this to let that happen.. Bastards...
Gayane
I agree with the sentiments here.
Gayane - good point about voting.
Seda - Are you in London? What about an Armenian church or something where you can attend?
I'm thinking about my grandparents today, too, and my memories of them. How did they manage to know how to love after all they went through and struggled with? Somehow they seemed to know better than others who didn't.
Thanks for the commentary and poetry.
I guess the Bacha Bazi party was canceled to make room for the conference and make the Turks look more credible with the US.
Those of you who want to vote while living in Diaspora, hence enjoying better economic conditions, should move to Armenia to feel the simple 'enjoyments' of locals.
I was against the protocols initially because of all those preconditions, but it was a hope for an independent economy. Independent from Russia and US and all EU countries.
This is not only a political but also a huge economic issue. So let's live and see what's happening.
Ahmet -- I only wear glasses when I exchange comments with the Turks so I make out what is it that they’re trying to say. So don't you worry about it. By the way, aren’t you the one who insulted Holy Trinity in some other discussion and never apologized? Well, guess what, in contrast to you I respect Islam and would never descent to the level of derogating other religion’s relics. But you did. Think for a second, and you may put glasses to appear more intelligent, how this characterizes you as a human being.
As for your arguments, I read them with a grin. Turkey is a source of stability? Are you kidding me? How can a country be a source of stability when it has problems with almost all of its neighbors and a bunch of internal problems, Kurdish being the most explosive? You call this stability?
Why would Turkey support NATO troops in Iraq, you ask? Noone asked your government to support troops in Iraq in the direct sense of the word. You were only required to secure the use of a NATO base (not Turkish base) as a transportation route. Yet, you refused.
As for notions ‘Islam’ and ‘Islamism’, I’m afraid you need to educate yourself further because these notions bear a different meaning. Islam is the monotheistic religion of the Muslims. Islamism (a term I used), on the other hand, is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system. And this clearly contradicts secularism that your state has embraced.
By the way, Armenians never had problems with Muslims, they have problems with Turks. Most of the Muslim nations respect Christian Armenians, because we are the People of the Book and because they came to know how successfully Armenians, descendants of those who were deported or barely survived Turkish barbarism in 1915, contributed to the development of their nations: Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Sudan, UAE, etc.
For the time being US needs Turkish airspace, but things change, and this was basically the point of my comment. Other multiple bases are being constructed and other routes are being explored. You can say Turkey is the 15th largest economy in the world, but economists take into account such important variables as unemployment rate, which is 15%, population below poverty appx. 20%, and annual deficit of 45 bln USD. Not to mention the military spending that accounts for about 7% of the budget per annum. By Western standards, this is hardly the image of a powerhouse state.
To: Gayane, Janine, Karo & other 'katch' ones! More children should be named Arudz!
Yes, I will follow the Protests on Horzon TV. I wish my daughters and I could be in LA too.
I would rejoice if my daughter (Larissa is not on Face Book) will become friends with one or more of you ladies. She is very much Armenian and don't even know it. In fact she has mostly Armenian features and reminds me of my grandma. I sometimes mention visiting Armenia...but I am not sure it possible for us?
My father had a younger sister who drowned in the family fountain (garden) when she was 3 or 4. So when my sister came along the family named her after the tragically lost Ankineee (sorry I don't how to put the accent on the e here). I only have a sister. Then in 1983 my wife wanted to name our daughter Ankine after my sister. It was a done deal!
There you got some more history. I have now cried many many tears over the beautiful girls and women we have lost in the last 200 yrs. It is more than tragic and unfair. In the book "Armenian Golgotha" where Vartabed Balakian was hiding as German soldier in the Armenian hospital, run by an Armenian doctor, there was a Turkish soldier who had lost his leg(s) and was being attended to by Armenian nurse(s). He thought God had taken his legs away for having violated many Armenian women and virgins. Ironic! Aren't you all glad that The Ancient of Days is still on HIS throne?
Yes, many 'Turkish' actors/actresses/singers are very much Armenian looking!
Have a Great Martyrs' Day! I will pray that after this one we will finally see/hear major changes in the hearts and minds of people of the world!
G
G
Janine jan..
I seriously thought something so horrible was said that he got soooooooooo worked up.. from his reaction and from " I am speechless".. I feel sorry for you...such hatred... i thought Hell broke loose... I thought what in the WORLD did i Say to cause Kurt to go get soooooooooo up and puffing and huffing.....I laughed myself when I started to read the rest of his comments...
I agree with you Janine.. being together, finding peace in knowing you have a sister or a brother who shares the same passion and love for our country truly makes life easier and at the same time allows us to share jokes and get a laugh out of it..despite the unhappy, frustrating and sad events and moments. .
God Bless you all..
Gayane
To: Dr. Deranian & others:
Only if a DNA census could be taken. What would Turks think? say? If one's DNA is Armenian one certainly cannot be a Turk from the Eastern lands. 1 in 5 is a huge %. These forced conversions are not easy to overlook!
I also cried many many tears for all the people who perished, especially in such barbaric ways. The old, the young, the sick, the pregnant, boys, young men and women who had no guilt but that they were Ermeni? How could a human being (if they are so?) be so cruel to another? And then in a wholesale manner too! You notice that after they had violated & murdered they also gloated about it all? My grandpa's brother-in-law (his sister's husband) was tortured...his nails pulled off. He survived to write 2 books titled "Bahage Baneshin Vra" & "Korsh Kayle Gadgher Er". They are both in Armenian and written after the war in Alexandria, Egypt.
More history for all of you!
G
PAREV IM HAYRENAGITSNER,
I HAVE TO RESPECT ALL OF YOUR COMMENTS & VIEWS TO BE POLITE!
IT"S AFTER ALL FREE SPEECH. I THINK THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO SCORE CHEEP POINTS BY POINTING THE ARMENIAN ELECTIONS CORRUPT OR NOT, LOOK AROUND BUT NOT TO FAR... ALL COUNTRIES HAVE MORE CORRUPTIONS. SHOW ME ONE THAT HAS NOT GONE THAT WAY, I DO NOT SAY THAT ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT IS CORRUPT OR NOT.
WHEN TURKS COMMITTED GENOCIDE , THEY DID NOT CONSIDERED OUR RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL IDEAS. THEY WERE ARMENIANS AND THAT WAS INOUGH.
SO WE ARMENIANES GOT TO SUPPORT OUR GOVERNMENT & THE PRESIDENT WHO EVER HE OR SHE MAY BE.
NO NEED FOR CHEAP SHOTS. WE HAVE AN ENEMY WHO LIKES TO TELL US THAT THE OTTOMAN TURKS COMMIT..... BULL! THEY ARE THE SAME, YOU CAN PAINT A ZEBRA BUT TILL IT RAINS. SO PLEASE MY ARMENIANS NO MORE CHEAP SHOTS, SHOW UNITED FRONT, SUPPORT OUR CAUSE . WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO SASSOON. GOD BLESS AZAD YEV ANGAGH ARMENIA & IT'S PEOPLE IN ARMENIA , GHARAPAGH AND DIASPORA.
HAROUT, TORONTO,CA.
I do also remember my mothers anguish , she was brought to jerusalem by the british army she was a child and put into an orphanage .......enough said
Narek wrote:
As for your arguments, I read them with a grin. Turkey is a source of stability? Are you kidding me? How can a country be a source of stability when it has problems with almost all of its neighbors and a bunch of internal problems, Kurdish being the most explosive? You call this stability?
I too, find this strange. Most notably what calls me to remember that other Turks posting in this forum have asked me, "Why do you want to destabilize our country? -- Meaning, of course, recognition of the genocide. I kept asking, "Why should recognizing something true about history destabilize your country? What terrible thing will happen?" But I didn't ever get an answer. So, again, so much for stability among so much fear (and of the Kurdish parties as well I think).
By the way, Armenians never had problems with Muslims, they have problems with Turks. Most of the Muslim nations respect Christian Armenians, because we are the People of the Book and because they came to know how successfully Armenians, descendants of those who were deported or barely survived Turkish barbarism in 1915, contributed to the development of their nations: Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Sudan, UAE, etc
True. Armenians have and still do live in peace among Muslim people all around the Mid and Near East
Every Armenian in every state who can read this has online access and should contact both their senators to express disappointment for the senator’s lack of interest for the Armenian Genocide.
Does anyone remembers in October 2000 when It look like the Armenians will soon see justice, when congress where setting up a resolution to recognize the Armenian genocide.
The senior Israel politician leading the denial is formal minister Shimon (Persky) Peres, ( Then Israel only allies in that hostile region) Israel and turkey lobbied hard to stop the resolution.it was dumped because of 2 or so votes (someone correct me if I am wrong?)
Now it is Turkey time a 10 years anniversary?
Now 2010 Dear Hillary Clinton comes up with this.(MERDE)
The Obama administration believes the passage of the Armenian Genocide resolution on Thursday was inappropriate, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said.
We have made that clear to all parties involved," she said, while responding to a question about the resolution in the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs.
A journalist asked: "Before entering the administration, both you and President Obama supported the campaign to label 1915 incidents as ‘genocide.' In recent days, both you and he have made direct appeals to Howard Berman, the chairman of the House's Foreign Affairs Committee, against the draft resolution. Could you explain why you and the president have reversed course on this issue?"
Clinton responded: "Well, I think circumstances have changed in very significant ways.
When President Obama took office and I became secretary of state, we determined that the process undertaken by Switzerland in bringing the Turkish and Armenian governments together was a very worthy one that we intended to support, and we have done so. I was personally in Zurich at the time when the protocols for the normalization of the relationship between the two countries were signed. We think that is the appropriate way to manage the problems that have stood in the way of normalization between the two countries."
"I do not think it is for any other country to determine how two countries resolve matters between them,
to the extent that actions that the United States might take could disrupt this process," she said.
"Therefore, President Obama and I have made clear, both last year and again this year that we do not believe any action by the Congress is appropriate, and we oppose it.
We do not believe that the full Congress will or should act upon that resolution, and we have made that clear to all the parties involved,"
In early days The ARF had the right solution,but after 4 or 5 American presidents promisses?but instead spread a lot of MERDE,and we still belive them.
(offcourse we now are civilised?)A miracle?and then?
I do hope the Armenian weekly will have the decensy not to erase this next comment.the 100 year old seniors that i am including was a genocide surviver.
(This next comments is personaly directed towards.Mr.Paylag Atamian our Melbourne Australia ARF organizer ( i do hope the rest of the ARF organization over the world are not a carbon copy of this man) a real fearless leader.he only insults and ridicules 100 years old seniors.
it has only been 3 years now
When are you going to front up and apologies to our Armenian seniors and provide proof for all your allege accusations towards an ARS member that are their for them,
I promise you this issue is not just going to vanish.
TONY.
Hye, never to have known my grandparents, most of their children, uncles, aunts, cousins... all to have been Genocided! As with others, we grew up without families we shall have had to share our lives. Lost to us in the most vile methods.
In school when the assignment was to create my own family tree - I could not since the Turks, beginning 1915 had slaughered, raped, kidnapped, set afire in their churches, and tortured - unique to the Turkish mentality - and more...
My family tree, too, ended in 1915.
But the phoenix has arisen - in all the lands the surviviors sougfht for safety, together with their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren we honor those lost to the hordes from out of the Asian mountains. Together, we pursue the justice denied. Denial of justice to our victims of Genocides - still - until today 2010 - denied , as a Genocide by Sudan, in a Darfur!
Until, justice is served to those lost to Genocides, we pursue our covenant to all our families we never knew... to our Survivors whose memories of the Genocides was with them all the days of their lives... who shared their pains and horrors borne of the unforgettable - humans demeaning humans... Turkish style.
Manooshag
Raffi Manoukian, Today, on Remembrance Date (2010)
Our sincere congratulation for Raffi Manoukian
For advertizing in The New York Times on page 3*,
The photo of P. Obama, showing rather his fearful face.
with attached photo on his back… ‘slayed Armenian children’,
with His personal phrases on the Armenian Genocide.
“Armenian Genocide is not an Allegation….”**
That was two-years before His Inauguration Day.
As a mother, I am utterly sure
If Barak’s mother, Stanley-Ann was alive,
She would force him to recognize our soulful pains —
As she bravely cared and loved every race.
She was beautiful, kind, clever
She broke all the white rules
To marry Black Man not from her race,
That was unacceptable before five decades.
Once again we’re sure…that
Human Barak is able to break gaggers' scavengers’ rules.
April 24, 2010
____________________________________
* On the top right corner of the same page 3, of The New York Times, observed the photos of the three British candidates for election on 6th May 2010 (David Cameron, Gordon Brown, Nick Clegg).
I wander if they will see this advertisement.
Every human race should know that British MPs have not yet recognized the Armenian Genocide.
I can’t say more but shame on all!
**“Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view,
but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence, the facts are undeniable.
As a senator, I strongly support passage of Armenian Genocide Resolution
(H. RES.106 and S.RES.106), and as a president I will recognize the Armenian Genocide (January 19, 2008).
Nairian - I believe you are thinking of the conference which fell through and then was on again. This event happened:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turks-in-first-commemorate-massacre-of-armenians-2010-04-24
What does Meds Yeghern mean?...maybe we English speaking Americans should ask of our president to give definitons to words he utters in his speechs that are not of english origin. Or to at least put in brackets what foreign words mean in english...very odd of a country's leader to say foreign words without explaining thos words to his people.
So, this might be very well done, for sure, but do you all think it's just a simple 'coincidence' that the geniuses at HBO decided to air this on April 24? Nothing in this world happens by accident...nothing. Putting an Armenian on national TV as 'Dr. Death' on April 24 is a very, very cruel joke, but shows very clearly that some people in the media are, at the base, very anti-Armenian...and at least to me, this is clear evidence of that bias.
President Obama shamefully chose to play linguistic gymnastics with Armenian and English euphemisms to no avail. Indeed, a devious and highly offensive ploy that will cost him politically more than he may think. Although the term Medtz Yeghern is not a legally accurate interpretation of the Armenian Genocide, it is a somewhat colloquial reference to the Genocide used by some within Armenian circles, but the lack of semantic exactitude by a Columbia and Harvard Law School graduate hardly goes unnoticed without a shrewd calculated political assessment.
This is unquestionably true especially when dealing with a (supposed) American ally still unable to accept the reality of historical truth and particularly when the Republic of Turkey is so fervently involved (diplomatically, financially and legally) in trying to conceal, contradict and cloak the Armenian Genocide.
Did Obama promise to recognize the Medtz Yeghern? No, he promised to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Do you think Armenians would have overwhelmingly supported/funded Obama’s campaign and voted for him en masse if he had promised to recognize the Medtz Yeghern? Highly unlikely then and definitely not now or hereafter. Lets just say that any candidate who makes a campaign promise to recognize the Medtz Yeghern will face their own Medtz Yeghern come election time…
Any futile attempts to mollify Americans with deliberately vague and inaccurate characterizations of the Armenian Genocide only serve to hinder the fight against future genocides and their denial.
If you examine Obama’s statement made during his campaign from January 18, 2008 (http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/19/barack_obama_on_the_importance.php ) , you will find two very interesting and telling facts. First, there are 11 references specifically citing the word – genocide – within 5 paragraphs of one letter. Second, there is not one mention made of either of the following terms: Medz Yeghern, Հայոց ցեղասպանություն (Hayoc’ c’eġaspanut’yun), Holocaust, Tseghaspanotyoon, Shoa or what have you.
Now, compare Obama’s letter above (referencing genocide 11 times) with his commemorative statement as President in April 2009 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-of-President-Barack-Obama-on-Armenian-Remembrance-Day/ ). As an Armenian, the results are hardly surprising…Not one mention of the word genocide in any context and two references made about the Meds Yeghern. Coincidence? Hardly. Reacting to threats of a paper tiger…much more likely. Just like many astute observers, Armenians don't find these facts coincidental, or even inconsequential but rather interpret his remarks to be downright insulting, insincere and quite hypocritical to say the least.
If you compare these remarks to his address regarding the Holocaust/Shoah you see a very clear distinction in tone, context and content. About 15 days ago on April 11, 2010, the White House released their annual Statement by the President on Holocaust Remembrance Day (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/statement-president-holocaust-remembrance-day ). Holocaust is mentioned three times. Moreover, three important words are presented in this exact logical order – genocide, justice and peace, each written once. In addition, juxtaposing the titles alone is quite revealing. The Presidents statement on the Holocaust actually mentions the – Holocaust – the reason for the letter, whereas the statement on the Armenian Genocide vaguely identifies an – Armenian Remembrance Day. Anyone want to take a stab at why President Obama just didn’t leave out the word genocide and refer to it merely as the Holocaust/Shoah? Purposely neglecting to include the word genocide written in English or Armenian is offensive to me and very far from acceptable to our community.
For another very clear example attesting to the Presidents untenable double standard on the Armenian Genocide take a look at his statement released a few weeks ago commemorating the Rwandan Genocide April 7, 2010. (http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/statement-president-16th-anniversary-genocide-rwanda ) The President mentions the word genocide 3 times within the one paragraph letter to the Rwandan community.
SHAME ON YOU MR. OBAMA, YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN THE REV. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.'S ADMONITIONS IN EXCHANGE FOR PETTY POLITICAL POSTURING.
SHAME ON YOU! YOU'RE NOT MY PRESIDENT.
Nairian, I believe you are thinking of the conference. It did fall through, but then it was on again!
But here is an article about this demonstration. It seems about 100 people attended.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turks-in-first-commemorate-massacre-of-armenians-2010-04-24
To Obama and Hillary: No restorative justice --> No energy pipelines.
Never mind your acknowledgment. Restorative justice: Land, Reparation and Restitution.
Have to agree with Karekin that this appears to be a very suspicious coincidence. The enemies of the Armenians are both covert and overt. We need to learn how to play the diplomatic game with finesse and discernment because our friends are few and our enemies are well funded. We Armenians need to pull together in support of RA. My opinion is that the Turks will do anything to avoid accepting the word Genocide and are anxious to appear to the world that they will be "fair" in settling the Armenian question. While I want more than an apology, I could forgo the Turks accepting the term "genocide" (because the world has acknowledged it) in exchange for economic considerations including access to a seaport! We have to work this from many angles.
Why is anyone surprised? The man is an opportunist and wouldn't be where he is today if he hadn't already mastered the art of manipulating people. His word means nothing - never has and never will. My fellow Armenians, please never make the same mistake again of trusting this empty suit. You will only set yourselves up for further disappointment. Absolutely disgraceful.
NoChange Obama.
Might as well have voted for McCain.
Was George W our president? Or Bill Clinton? Or Bush Sr. ? Do you really think the next President will be any different?
Thanks Lalai. I agree. It is that time of the year when all Armenians put their differences aside and unite. On a day of mourning, it somehow feels wonderful. And our brothers and sisters in our fatherland do the same. Here's some footage from Yerevan I shot last year:
http://vimeo.com/11185158
Mike,
Meds Yeghern in Armenian literally translates to "Great Calamity", it is almost as if he is trying to show the Armenian Population that he himself is trying his hardest to admit it is a Genocide, but due to the cnstant pressure from turkey and even his own government, he is forced to use somewhat of a code word.
Jim Keller, excellent comment. Garabedian, you are right too.
Donkioan. you are the one who is selfish. Go read Jim Keller and Garabedian.
Ahmet -- I think on this day, the International Day of Remembrance of the Victims of the Armenian Genocide, Turks must shut up. You are noone to judge what opinions other commentators share here. Go read international genocide scholars' publications on barbarism, cruelty, and total disrespect for human life that your nation is known for. And continue day dreaming together with Jim Killer, or wharever abusive name has been given him. It won't affect the process of intenrational recognition of the Armenian Genocide regardsless whether Obama uttered the 'G' word or not. If the American president recognizes the Holocaust of teh Jews as a humanitarin tragedy, he must also recognize the Genocide of the Armenians perpatrated by soulless, heartless, nomadic barabrians called Turks. GFY.
Dear President Obama,
Despite my initial skepticism regarding your campaign avowals to call the Armenian Genocide as such, now that you have once again broken your promise to do so, I am surprised to find myself feeling disappointed. It turns out that I had some faith in your eloquent speeches.
As a first-generation Armenian, this issue is important to me. Were I not Armenian, it would be as important to me, if I were aware of the facts. This leads me to one of the problems with your euphemistic actions: they teach a whole country, even the most erudite newspaper reading public, to doubt something that is a very real historical fact. You are promoting ignorance.
The only upside to being a descendant of Genocide is that it forces me to judge other government policies with critical skepticism: seeing the way you treat the Armenian Genocide of 1915 leads me to seriously doubt your speeches and political stances.
I understand the vigil for the victims of the armenian genocide did take place in Istanbul. For the first time in history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gefh0IGlZ9A
SG, Istanbul, Burak Can and other brave Turks who participated in this discussion, if you occasionally visit it, could you please translate, in general, what the people who gathered for the remembrance event say and what ultranationalist Turks are responding? They act like beasts, I wouldn't suspect for a split second, that, if given a chance, they'd massacre those who speak the truth...
I found this in youtube. I think it's related to an event described in the artilce above. But which one and what the demonstrators and the reactionists are saying, I have no clue. Could anyone help? Turkish commentators sympathetic to the Armeians that post in Armenian Weekly, could you, please? Thank you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gefh0IGlZ9A
Hye, the cycle of Genocides cannot come to an end since the American leaderships are incapable of facing truths... playing politics yes, but facing the immoral aspects of Genocides, no.
Turkey has committed Genocides against the Armenians, the Greeks, the Syrians and currently, Kurds. Today Turkey winner, victims losers...
Since the USA leaders are playing politics with the word GENOCIDE - not even recognizing the vile methods of slaughters, rapes, kidnappings, church filled with women and children set afire, bastinados torture when victims' soles of their feet are beaten bloody, the soles then burst, death the only release... and worse!
Hence, these leaders of the free world, (USA supposedly leading) have yet to face the immorality of Genocides - the political expedients are mattered - but not the loss of innocent lives, or survivors living lives with memories of the horrors of the vile Turkish methods of 'eliminating' an ancient and advanced society... then to take the culture to be the Turks' own ( Turks had not culture).
In civilized nations murderers, kidnappers, rapists, and more are sought out in order that these criminals shall face justice for their crimes committed.
Yet when these same crimes are committed by a Turkey - masses of crimes - then labelled as GENOCIDES, then deemed not to be judged! Not crimes!
Does the label of GENOCIDE lessen these crimes? Does the word GENOCIDE connote another set of rules for the crimes of GENOCIDE? Does a Genocide then cause the perpetrator of the Genocide to be a "winner"? Does a Genocide then cause the victims to be the "loser"? Does Genocide, unrecognized and too, allowed, without anyone of the civilized nations having the 'guts' to face the bully perpetrators guilt, the perpetrators vile treatments of the victims - the innocents - awaiting their tortures, awaiting their deaths, awaiting the nations of the world to come to their rescue, awaiting the end of the cycles of Genocides...
OR, it may be that our so-called civilization has not yet reached that level of 'humanity' to be capable of calling a 'spade a spade' - or facing the bully perpetrators of their crimes - against all humanity. For the truth shall be known: if the Turks had faced their guilt of their crimes against the Armenians (begun in the 19th century and brought to full force in 1915-1923) made their reparations and more - all the Genocides that followed in the 20th century shall never been. Never shall have happened since the despots shall have known that the 'civilized' nations of the world had ended the cycles of Genocides - the world over - in the early 20th century... All the despots that pursued the Genocides that followed the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation have been the "winners"... All the innocent victims slaughtered, raped, kidnapped, burned alive, and worse - all these millions have been the losers... But too, when you think about it - with Genocides unrecognized, with Genocides still (as Darfur in 2010) hasn't our humanity the world over, too, been a loser as well?
For the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation, unresolved, unrepented, still
exists today 2010 - the unburied bones of those slaughtered lying about on their own lands of nearly 4,000 years - awaiting the judgement, awaiting burial.
Manooshag
Armenia has a very important geopolitical position for Russia especially after the war with Georgia Armenia cooperating with Russia is a great power which the US don't like. America has a huge armenian cummunity and each presinend uses tha fact of the armenian genocide to gain voters it's time aremnians understood this fact and started to act the same way - do not give voices after 2 years Obama again is going to need you on his side so give him a back answer
I was there with over 200 people. It's suprising that many people do not believe such thing could be held in Turkey. Yes, Turkey has a great problem with freedom of expression however, Turkey moved ahead. The infamous Article 301 was reformed years ago and there has been no case related to that article since then. Turkey is actually a country in which people might gather to say "We Are All Armenians", it is a country in which people can gather in memorium of Armenian Genocide victims... I wonder if such thing could be done in Yerevan; people gather and protest terrorist acts of Asala or Armenian groups in the 1St World War? We should not be prejudiced against any thing, anyone.
can you hold such an event in Erivan as there were only relocation and no murder happened? or in Paris? or in Zurich? wrong my friends.. Turks always bared the democracy and human rights but Not other so called Europeans.
I as a believer of such inhumane things NOT done by the Turks and not happened in Turkey. can I hold a meeting in Erivan? I would be killed in 2 minutes..
Turks opened their hearts and minds to Jewish people when they were kicked out of Spain 500 years ago thenagain in WW II. Turks brought Armenians to Istanbul and gave them land and Homes and built churches for them.
It is NOT so simple that one day people decides we do not like Armenians in Istanbul. April 24, Armenian terrorists have been sent to Cankiri province just to calm NOT killed them. This should tell of you something. You are commemorating something nver took place unfortunately.. Armenian Subjects were not killed rather relocated in to other parts of the empire as those so-called intellectuals ( calentestine terrorists) sent to internal exile.
Think what you are commemorating dear Armenians. reality will come out one way or another..
Sorry.. I meant fortunately such things never took place..
It is noteworthy that Haydarpasha train station is where the first convoy of deported Armenians intellectuals left on 24 April 1915.
It's really a bit sad to see on these pages the amount of rage that ensues when someone voices a thought or idea that is not exactly what someone else wants to hear, or does not conform to someone's way of thinking. Do you all know how to have a civilized discussion without resorting to control tactics? I will tell you that quite a few people have dropped out of the Armenian scene because of such close-mindedness. For every Armenian who reads these pages, there are hundreds out there who don't. Please keep this in mind and try to think of why that's the case. We live in a modern era where open, educated thinking should be respected, not trashed, especially when dealing w/ serious issues like the genocide. As the Japanese say, a tree that cannot bend in the wind will snap. There is way too much snapping going on here.
Raffi Manoukian’s Advertisement Page in the New York Times
Newspaper, On Remembrance Date (April 24, 2010)
Our sincere congratulation for benefactor Raffi Manoukian
For advertising in The New York Times on page 3*—
The photo of P. Obama, showing rather his fearful escaping face
with an attached photo on the back of his neck
‘slayed Armenian children by Ottoman’s Government’,
And his personal phrases on the Armenian Genocide
Said with full confidence, hence to reveal his knowledge.
“Armenian Genocide is not an allegation…, and
as a president I will recognize the Armenian Genocide”**
That was two-years before His Inauguration Day.
P. Obama in the interim, developed ‘Political Alzheimer’
Needs treatment to recover, needs kind clever creative
Armenian physician to care for his mind’s well-being.
As a mother, I am utterly sure
If Barak’s mother, Stanley-Ann was alive,
She would force him to recognize our agonized graved roots —
As she bravely cared and loved every race.
She was beautiful, kind, clever
She broke all the white rules
To marry Black Man not from her race,
That was unacceptable before five decades.
Once again we’re confident…that
Human Barak is able to break gaggers hubris attitudes.
We’re still waiting passionless that blue-pearly date.
____________________________________
* On the top right corner of the same page 3, of The New York Times, observed the photos of the three British candidates(David Cameron, Gordon Brown, Nick Clegg) debating to be elected on 6th May 2010.
I wander if they will see Armenian genocide Photo in the lower left of the newspaper. Every human race should know that British MPs have covered their eyes by their cunning eyelids to unrecognize the Armenian Genocide.
“I can’t add more but shame on all,
Each chants to become hubris minister uncaring for lost Armenian
brains crushed, the rest deprived from their mothers’, the Anatolian lands”
**“Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence, the facts are undeniable.As a senator, I strongly support passage of Armenian Genocide Resolution(H. RES.106 and S.RES.106), and as a president I will recognize the Armenian Genocide (January 19, 2008).
You see...Turkey is indeed maturing in a good way: http://www.theprovince.com/news/genie+bottle/2949037/story.html
Answer just one question, Karekin. But do please answer it. Don’t hide away in these pages hoping that the time will pass and commentators will forget some of your derogatory comments.
You claim: [it’s] sad to see on these pages the amount of rage that ensues when someone voices a thought or idea that is not exactly what someone else wants to hear, or does not conform to someone’s way of thinking.
When you allowed yourself outrageous phrases (and I hope you’d agree that derogation of one’s religious or national feelings is an outrageous behavior for someone like you, who considers himself as one who lives ‘in a modern era where open, educated thinking should be respected’) like ‘[Jesus Christ,] some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks’ or ‘Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey… Perhaps they should thank Talaat Pasha for that,’ did you or did you not think that these phrases (not to count many others) could possibly ensue innate rage or at least would not conform someone’s way of thinking? Hah? Nevertheless, you did allow yourself to descend to such indecency.
Look into yourself. Ask yourself: wouldn’t such comments of mine, even if I consider them as my thoughts or ideas, offend someone else’s national dignity and religious feelings? Never has any Armenian in this or any other discussion said anything about Islam and its relics or alluded on a nightmarish idea that perhaps Jews should thank Adolf Hitler for living much better lives now… But you did. Think whether you crossed the boundaries of decency and civility.
To Kurt:
I don't know if they teach you geography at all at schools, but in the English language the modern capital of the Republic of Armenia is spelled "Yerevan" and not "Erivan." The name comes from ancient Armenian Urartian city of Erebuni (Yerebuni) built by King Argishti I in 782 B.C.
Just try to remember how georgraphic toponyms are correctly spelled. Or consult English Oxford Dictionary online if you're unsure, OK?
Anyone could protest in Turkey whether pro or con for anything. but I do not think you can do this in Erivan. You can do this in Paris or Zurich.
Turks are fair and they will not accept something which they have not done...
Karekin,
Yes.. there are some positive movements in the horizon.... such as the gathering to commemorate the Genocide in Instambul.. However, it does not mean we are out of the darkness yet.. please make a note.. below are some statements from the article you shared with us.
"He said that despite the police presence, organizers feared a backlash from people opposed to the demonstration."
This does not tell me any advancement in 90% of population when it comes to the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians.. It is definintely a positive gesture but it is not merely what we call working toward reconciliation and recognition of what happened in 1915-1923. If the demonstrators still fearing of their lives just because they are standing up for truth and justice, what does that tell us?? It tells me that barbaric actions still very much alive in alot of Turks...including in their main body: Turkish govt...
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan welcomed a statement by U.S. President Barack Obama on Saturday which avoided the use of the term and instead referred to "one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century."
This does not show any advancement in the US relations with the Armenians when it comes to the Genocide.. This shows how Turkey with its bloody claws continues its gag rule to shut US up.. This does not tell me any willingness from Turkey to move forward and do the right thing.. Does it to you????
Avoiding an open confrontation over the term genocide -- which the Turkish government fiercely rejects -- the petition speaks of the "Great Catastrophe" of the massacres.
Still can't use the word Genocide in Turkey... Does this show any advancement in political and national level???? I don't think so....
I don't see Turkey taking a positive stride on this matter ..not now, not ever (at least I hope they will eventually come to their senses in this regard)...." So preaching about brotherhood and doing things in a more forgiving and working together ways is something I am not ready to do..i assume many other Armenians think the same...... Not to say we should not recognize those Turks who despite their own fear of staying alive stand by ARmenians and fight for righteousness and truth.. I bow to them for speaking out... They are our modern day heros...
Karekin, your views are so confusing to me that I can't say I agree with you voice..... to me you are still an enigma... I don't have to agree with you nor do I have to take what you say under consideration if I dont' see the value... that does not mean we are closed minded.
We have read and allowed you to express your thoughts...... the Weekly allowed you to post your comments (no matter how outrageous and wrong there may have been from time to time)... and you still comment on "we" are being closed minded? Hmmm... again mixing the pot here...
God Bless
Gayane
This appears to be the 7 p.m. event in Taksim, which is at the centre of Istanbul. The attendees are truly courageous; I bow to them with deep respect and gratitude. It gives me great hope for the future.
John,
This appears to be the 7 p.m. event in Taksim, which is at the centre of Istanbul. The attendees are truly courageous; I bow to them with deep respect and gratitude. It gives me great hope for the future.
You are absolutely right and that is why Haydarpasha was chosen as the location for this event.
Anyone could protest in Turkey whether pro or con for anything. but I do not think you can do this in Erivan. You can do this in Paris or Zurich.
Turks are fair and they will not accept something which they have not done…
There is just so much you know nothing about, Kurt. And it is remarkable to be that deliberately deaf, dumb and blind. The genocide and its denial by people like you is the absolute definition of injustice. The whole world knows it. Only you don't. What does that say about you?
Kurt you give all Turks a bad name.
Karekin:
If you don't work for the Turkish government or some PR agency, then you're working without being paid. I support this demonstration but it's pitiful to claim some sort of great leap forward. This was faced by a vehement demonstration against it, the mainline Kemalist rhetoric denouncing it. They needed massive police security. And the only reason its happening is because there is too much political pressure going opposite Turkey now for it not to have to give way. This could go any way from here. But clearly, if you read the NY Times article today, Turkey has lots its support in the West on this issue, and they must be desperately trying to find a way to deal with it. I'm glad for the demonstration, but there is just no way you could proclaim light and liberty have dawned forever. It's way too early for that.
And if the rest of the Armenian world was like you instead of the activists who have worked so hard for recognition, scholarship, etc etc -- this NEVER would have happened.
oops
lots its support in the West on this issue = lost its support ...
NY Times article on genocide proclamation by Obama:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/25/world/europe/25prexy.html
Karekin,
I think you're being a little too conspiratorial on this. I watched it and in the movie Jack's sister mentioned the genocide. Although the term 'Armenian Holocaust' was used in the script. Is Armenian Genocide so contravercial that Armenian Holocuast is an acceptable substitute? Maybe that's the term Jack's sister Margo used in real life. They seem to be trying to be accurate to the real life story.
That said, the idea of assisted suicide for those suffering from a terminal illness is not an issue. The situation can be so bad that doing everything to keep that patient alive a few more weeks simply extends teh suffereing. But Kervorkian's persuit and advocacy of the issue was I believe dangerous and wreckless. He was the lone judge determining the cases that came to him and then taking his machine to the patient, hooking it up and letting the person pull the string.
I wonder if there is something like a free discourse possible in Armenia?
In Turkish TV (Haberturk, Teke Tek) is since weeks a prime time show where a Turkish intellectual of Armenian origin (Sevan Nisanyan) and a Turkish history Scholar (Yusuf Halacoglu) are disputing live controverse the happennings of 1915.
Haberturk is one of the most seen news channels in Turkey. Comparable with CNN.
I really doubt that this would be possible in Armenia or within the Armenian diaspora.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R9pUrd3b6E
So where are we?...
Another April 24th has come and gone and although commemorations and conferences have taken place in Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey has yet to admit to its crimes and to offer fair reparation.
Turkey continues to skirt responsibility by blaming the victims and suggesting they were responding to an Armenian threat (civil war, some Armenian alliance with Russia, etc.,) during WWI.
Turkey continues to scold the world for what it calls "third party interference" in its relations with Armenia, yet Turkey exerts untold pressure to influence US policy and untold dollars to buy academic scholarship in its favor.
The US President is afraid to call a genocide a genocide, given the current political climate, despite the fact that the Congress has done so in the past under the Reagan administration.
Armenia suspends the Protocols because Turkey insists on preconditions regarding Azerbaijan and Artsakh.
Turks like Kurt really believe that Armenians are picking on the Turks.
Armenians like Karekin complain that other Armenians express too much rage, while others complain that Turkish Armenians like AB don't express enough.
And 1.5 million souls still await justice while their descendants long for some restoration of what was lost of their 3 to 4 thousand year old presence in Asia Minor.
Who will lead us out of this mess? What will justice look like? When will it come?
Janine...please - get off your high horse and get real. And, please stop attempting to insult someone by insinuating that they have something to do w. the Turkish govt or propaganda machine. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, all people - including Armenians - are free to have thoughts based on reality, not some fantasy or hatred. I grew up in an Armenian household and there was never, ever any hatred voiced towards Turks. That may have been in your environment, but not in mind. At the same time, no one is saying that the situation in Turkey regarding the genocide is some kind of paradise, but you need to admit that it is progress. As you know, Rome was not built in a day. This is new and part of a process. The process is of 'unlearning' a mythical past about the creation of the new Turkey. So, it will take time. Gamatz, gamatz...the truth is emerging in Turkey and Turks are part of the process. You really need to learn how to appreciate these positive developments that are going on and how to encourage them....not stifle them based on a narrow view of the world. If you've ever planted a garden, you know that it takes time for a seed to become a tomato....this is the same thing. Patience, my dear, patience....
Do not give Turks a bad name, pls
Karekin - I told you the truth -- to me you really sound like you work for the govt. This conference is taken by some brave people and I pray for their safety. I wish I could meet them. But "maturing?" The whole country? It is way way way too early for that. It is you who are not real. Did you see the video of the vigil? Did you see the counter-demonstration? I give all credit to the people at the vigil, and as I have said here, I have had the fortune to meet Turks who were enlightened intellectuals, people who thirst after truth, really really admirable, and brave. I will say that I don't even know if I would be as brave in their shoes. But you cannot make proclamations about the country when they are in a situation where everything could change tomorrow and they wind up on charges somewhere.
As for a high horse, and insults -- well, I write honestly and not to be insulting. I think it is you who needs to "get real" and quit making assumptions about others.
PS And I stand by what I said. Without all the activism of the Armenian community in Diaspora all these years (especially in the US), we never would be here at all.
John, I think Ani is right. That is the event called a Vigil. You can also see the counter-demonstrators in that video
BTW if you listen closely, you can hear "Groonk" playing at the Vigil. And it looks to me that the demonstrators are seriously grieving the deaths.
Also, I don't speak Turkish, but I think the woman is reading the names of the provinces where Armenians were martyred, murdered, kidnapped, tortured, cleansed.
I pray for these courageous people. I wish I could meet them.
One last note: I know very well that there have been intellectuals in Turkey - for LONG TIME - who know the truth of this. That is why I don't see their existence as something brand new. But in the past they were thrown in jail, or when something like this came too close there would be a coup, or whatever. That is why I say it's too early to call the whole country maturing. This is a "one step forward" but we really do not know what will happen. I pray for these brave people who want a better, freer and more open country. They still cannot say "genocide"
Boyajian - I heard some interesting speeches yesterday. Among some of the ideas: a leader of the Armenian Congressional Caucus says that with Pelosi as speaker and other leadership ready to introduce and push the bill, this can pass if Armenians continue the campaign now to contact Reps, etc. within the next few weeks.
I heard another two speakers say lawsuits have been won and they want to press new lawsuits, not just for claims from insurance companies but also regarding monuments and property of Armenian Patriarchate in Turkey for churches, etc in world courts, federal court, etc
I also think it is important to see the genocide as part of a whole -- and remember the other communities who suffered "deportations" and all that meant with us: the Greek & Assyrian. I have seen these organizations begin working together and I really don't think we get a clear picture of history without understanding this idea of religion and the role it played.
Those are some ways people are going forward. I agree that the demonstrations in Istanbul are forward movements. I think more artists and intellectuals will be doing some creative collaboration one way or another. There is going to be a concert in NY for Hrant Dink with some Turkish artists. I believe the hope is also with more literature that may be published in Turkey.
A few Armenians who were born in Turkey, whom Armenians in the Diaspora and Armenia call ‘polsahayer’ (Armenians of Konstantinople) or ‘tajkahayer’ or ‘Turqiayi hayer’ (Armenians of Turkey), have specific attitudes and behavioral characteristics typical to those of Karekin. These species are rare, but they exist. Several of us attempted to understand the motives behind Karekin’s atypical behavior and, in some instances, his outrightly derogatory words. He accepts that ‘he grew up in an Armenian household and there was never any hatred voiced towards Turks,’ that ‘nowhere else was he treated better than in Turkey,’ etc. I have no idea if he works for the Turkish government or some PR agency or if he’s an Armenian or Armenian Christian at all. He seems to be a descendant of those Armenians who lived in Turkey before immigrating to the U.S. for whom Turkey is a birthplace, and even, technically, a motherland. Even though their family members have endured Turkish barbarity during the genocide, I imagine Karekin’s parents could have lived a relatively good life in the aftermath, have Turkish friends, enjoy Turkish food, visit places, etc. Birthplace and associated memories of natal and adolescent life, social affiliations, memories of places, events, as well as the language spoken in the family, leave a mark on one’s psyche, no doubt about it. But most people are able of differentiating these influences from their real world views and judgments. A few people like Karekin, apparently, are not. We can’t blame him for having such an excessive affinity to an alien culture and, perhaps, alien religion. What is unfortunate is that his remarks have outgrown from this social and psychological affinity and onto attempts to impose parity on an aborigine creative nation and a nomadic destroying invader, the murderer and the victim; on cases of ethnic or religious intolerance, wars, intercommunal clashes, invasions, etc. and a deliberate, government-panned extermination of a human civilization; on pacifistic calls for brotherly love and justified demand for a mere apology; on the perception that Armenians stigmatize Turks as murderers and disregard for the fact that Armenians essentially abhor the denialist Turkish state, not its people; and so on and so forth. He calls on us to be compassionate and understanding, yet fails to tell us whether he makes similar calls in the Turkish discussion forums. He calls on us to be patient and enduring, yet fails to tell us how much longer than the past 95 years we need to endure and if our patience is not used by the Turks to lead the issue into oblivion. He calls on us to be forgiving, even brings up teachings of Christ in support of his appeal, yet fails to admit that Jesus also taught to be repentant. He calls on us to be love each other as Jesus preached, yet fails to apologize for derogating Lord Jesus in one of his most disgraceful comments.
Karekin,
If you think Janine should come off from her high horse because she does not agree with your views, then I would say you need to come off from your la la clouds because your comments, views and thoughts are so outrageous, twisted and confusing that any Armenian on this forum WOULD think you are part of the Turkish propaganda... why were you surprised by that comment anyway??? You are trying to dangle a carrot in front of us by injecting some positive about Armenia and its well being but that does not cover the majority of your comments that are VERY pro Turkish... Come on man, this is getting annoying...
You speak of patience... PATIENCE???? is 95 years of being patient enough for you sir? 95 years.... what nation, people, country would be this patient before it punishes the monsters.. you name one.... so please don't tell me be patient... we are out of patient... enough is enough.. this should not have happened to be begin with.... but it did.. this should not have taken this long.. but it did.. it is time for NOT BEING PATIENT anymore.. you get it??? as i stated before, being patient did not get us anywhere for the last 95 years.... we will try to be undersanding and patient??? not anymore.. sorry....
If you believe that we do not recognize the positive then you should get off your low horse... we commented many times over that we appreciate, and recognize everything the few brave Turks are doing despite everything.. do you not read the comments in completion??? However, Turkey as a whole is no where CLOSE to what it needs to be... and we will NOT ACCEPT that... so keep your sentiments that Turkish govt/community are doing everything to make this happen..
please...that is a joke...
Kurt.... you are all in all a lost cause.. it is right now .. that " I feel sorry for you" that you graciously used on me.. should be directed to you... WOW.. such a lost cause..
Boyajian.. excellent commentary...
Janine... thank you for sharing the NY Times... I am actually surprised that the newspaper spoke how it is.. very impressed...
Karo..... mersi for showing Karekin that what he says does not match what he thinks.....
Gayane
Gayane - that NY Times article is for certain a sign that things are changing in the US and by that I mean with our government. I don't think such a thing could possibly have appeared in print in the NY Times up until this date! It even surprises all of us!!
Apres Ahanit jan... Shat apres....
Excellent comment..
Gayane
Hey out there, wake up! Whose clean? Before the G word was incorporated into the dictionary we here, the professed gardians of liberty, freedom and justice for all, committed the same sins of "Calamity". The rest of the world's list violators are included. You know who you are. Lets just all forgive each other once and for all and move on.
Hye, on Saturday, Turks were demonstrating for their nation, on Massachusetts Avenue, denying the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation 1915-1923 - even into 2010, defiling the memory of all those who had been slaughtered, raped, burned alive, tortured and worse...
I joined the Armenians who come to the Turkish Embassy each year in memorium for all those lost to us. To address the Turkish representatives each year for the need for the Turk to admit their guilt - the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - now recognized the world over - but Turks deny.
This year, as was begun last year, the Turks had arranged for their 'representatives' to be their youths... and a few elderly. As I watched and read the signs which they'd prepared and were displaying were a disgrace to any civilized society. One sign read: "60,000 Turks, Jews and Turks were killed by the Armenians"; another read how pleased they were with Obama's stance...so many signs with lies blatantly displayed... these 'kids' were so pleased to be there - it was an 'outing' for them. Worse, at some point music was
heard and then these 'representatives of their violent nation' were dancing to the music - a line dance, if you please, and laughing and having fun. Genocide has not any meaning for these youngsters who are educated to believe the Armenians are enemies of the Turks - no mention of the Armenians having been the victims of the Genocide perpetrated by their own predessors!
I stood there looking at these misdirected, misinformed young people, their elders just went along... I pointed to each of their convoluted signs and called to them LIARS, LIARS and then the vile acts began. Grinning like monkeys in a zoo, they all used their fingers to display where their violent mentality excells.
Obama, has defiled the Genocides issue to be an issue of no consequence - to be ignored.
Genocides!! Man's inhumanity to man - of no consequence!
Genocides, still in effect in Darfur these seven/eight years is now being denied by the Sudanese - of course, and why not? If the Obama can ignore the Darfurian Genocide, if the Turk can lie and deny for all these years their Genocides of the Armenians, Greeks, Syrians, Assyrians, and more... today the Sudanese choose to also deny slaughtering, raping, and worse the Darfurians. Obama, incapable of speaking for the Armenians Genocide, is also incapable of speaking up for the Genocide of the Darfurians!
Thus these, merry, prepared young Turks came to the Turkish Embassy in order to have a joyous and fun time for the Turks to ridicule the serious issue of Genocides - OR, I wonder, did they know what they had been prepped to do?
Humanity, regrettably, you have been relegated to the depths as only Turks can devise, can display without any compunctions - bully!
Manooshag
I am sorry that he did not use the word Genocide, I wish he had. However,there are several arguments to support what he did which I ask you to consider. I think they are good arguments.
First, if he had used the term, then he would have no further tools to threaten the enemy with. Once he says it, they will not care. If there is the most tiny liberal crack in the fascist wall that is Turkey, part of that opening is created by the state to show the west thtat dissent is allowed.
Second, what he said will be understood by the Turks as the equivalent to the word itself. This is also true of what he said when he addressed their GNA last year.
Third, what is the benefit to anyone if he does say it? Reagan said it, for that matter so did Lemkin, and Teddy Roosevelt said it in the language of the day.
Fourth, if the Turks have their tantrum, you can be sure that a neocon enemy of Armenia will plant stories that at least one US service member died because the unnecessarily enraged Turks denied the US something it needed. The story will blame the selfish Diaspora.
P.S. please correct, in the second paragraph, wherein I mistakenly listed the
60,000 Turks, Jews and (to be) KURDS... by the absurdity of their 'sign'... Thanks. Manooshag
To: Anahit
You have the same name as my mom. She will be 86 this year.
Karekin is one of thousands. If he is a 'bolsahye' then he is typically protective of his citizenship. Or he may simply be reluctant to spend energy on 'baykar'.'
I had an uncle (married to my my mom's sister) he was born in Burdur in 1910 later his family lived in Constantinople. Their name was altered to look and sound like a Turkish name. This was to avoid persecution :) OK!
Both sides of my family were/are very ARF people. So uncle's views clashed big time with the rest of the family, particularly with my grandpa...uncle's father-in-law. How could grandpa deny the genocide when his first wife was taken in 1917?
His older brother taken in 1895!
What were uncle's opinion/views? Exactly the same the Turkish State. That Armenians orginized to revolt and that they deserved to be massacred and punished for taking up arms against the (oppressive) government. He didn't have to think this way...he lived in Egypt; no longer in Turkey. Uncle was a very intelligent and a successful businessman (Istambul, Alexandria, Egypt, later in Italy/France, where he died a Turkish citizen:( ) He passed away only a short while ago he was 97 y/o
Here is what I ask myself: How can an intelligent, successful, Armenian man, (I was the only boy in the family, spent lots of time with him, assembling & building things like kites etc. he was a great guy!) actually come to believe such a ridiculous BS theory that Armenians could possibly rise up against the might of the Osmanean Regime? How can someone actually believe such non-sense? I have not been able to figure it out...even at my present age. When I was a teenager I had to accept grown-ups' opinion! It was not an option. I didn't believe what he believed in, because my grandpa knew the TRUTH and he explained all this to me. TRUTH sets us FREE!
So...what we are calling 'brainwashing' is/has been, very very strong, deep rooted in the Bolsahye community. It will take lots of time to reverse the BS taught. At the moment the Bolsahye have no choice but to cling to the BS until things start changing. The Bolsahye still live under an oppressive regime today! It is pure non-sense for Erdogan to claim "Armenians are running to Turkey, because there is peace in Turkey". There may be more jobs than in Armenia right now? Maybe?
So please do not be too upset with Karekin. I don't know if he is bolsahye or simply cannot be bothered struggling to see change & justice, at the same level as some other people who are and have grown impatient after 95 yrs.
Khatchig is in Turkey as we speak....perhaps you should direct your anger toward him for going there, spending money there, breathing the same air as the Turks and eating 'their' food. I, for one, will not be angry with him....far from it. We should all applaud his efforts. Yes, my family is from Turkey...get over it people...get over it! For about 3000+ years, that's where most Armenians came from, no matter if it was called the Byzantine empire, Persian empire, Arab empire or Ottoman empire....if the truth of history bothers you, then that's just too bad. You cannot change history w/ your bad attitude and lack of understanding - especially of Armenians who have a wide range of experiences, education and comprehension of the world. I never experienced such close-mindedness before in my family life, and yes, I find it disturbing to see it here.
To the one who calls himself Nick out there. Wake up! Many nations are clean of committing race annihilation. Didn’t you know? It is true that before the ‘G’ word was incorporated into the dictionary in 1944 we here, whom you call ‘professed’ guardians of liberty, freedom and justice for all, committed the sins of “Calamity,” although the scale and methods were so different. But you know what? In the 1960s the same’ professed’ guardians of liberty, freedom and justice enacted the Civil Liberty Act that is considered as apology to Afro-Americans and Indians for atrocities inflicted on them. Didn’t you know? Well, then be aware.
And I heard you saying ‘Lets just all forgive each other once and for all and move on?’ Well, Armenians are ready for that, but where is Turkey’s repentance, dude, so we could offer forgiveness and move on? Have you ever tried to tell the Jews to forgive once and for all for millions of gassed innocent people and move on? Why won’t you try and let us know what happens. You’re talking about forgiveness forgetting about repentance that needs to come first. Didn’t Germans apologize to the Jews? South African government to African Blacks? Russian government for Stalin’s purges? Cambodian government for the crimes of Khmer Rouge regime? Why did they apologize, dude? Wouldn’t it be easier, according to your ‘logic,’ to just have all forgive each other once and for all and move on??
John,
For about 1.30 minutes they are talking about giving the people space. The reactionist at 2.00 is saying
"This country won't raise any traitors. While children of this country are giving their lives for their country, there are traitors being raised here. This country under the influence of..."
He is interrupted by the racist crowd. They start to shout "Here is Turkey. Either love or leave" which happens to be the statement related to Hrant Dink's murder. Then the guy goes on "All the organization which allow this meeting, starting with the government, we are protesting." Crowd then goes "Either love or leave." , "We are the soldiers of M. Kemal Ataturk". They also start to sing the national anthem at some point.
People who gathered to commemorate 1915 events are saying the exact text written on their website. Click the following link to read the English version of it: http://buacihepimizin.org//index.php?sayfa=2
Then a guy makes an announcement: Friends! We will be sitting here in silence for 30 minutes.
I don't agree with you, Karekin, when you go on a rant about Armenians being too strident and rageful. You don't balance these reprimands to Armenians with reciprocal reprimands to Turks for being blinded by nationalistic pride, insulting to Armenians and reluctant to face the crimes committed by the Ittihad government? You have had ample opportunity to offer such commentary on this forum to Turkish writers who show a lack of awareness, knowledge and sensitivity. You don't practice what you preach nor take the opportunity to demonstrate your better way of relating to Turks.
However I do agree with your characterization of Turks lacking knowledge of the truth and slowly waking up to the ugliness of it. I appreciate your reminder to Armenians to be patient and recognize that a change is unfolding in Turkey. I also agree that a less strident attitude might promote a better dialogue.
But there is a place for righteous indignation after 95 years of mourning for 1.5 million innocent lives lost that have yet to see justice done. You also have to admit that it is not the mourning, but the righteous indignation that has kept the fight alive and brought awareness and awakening to fair-minded Turks. Yes, sometimes the angry Armenian voice is hard for the Turk to hear, but it is this voice that has begun to reach the heart and moral-backbone of some Turks.
We Armenians should find hope in this and show appreciation to Turks who are willing to confront a painful truth. But the fight is not over, especially when the Turkish leadership continues to distort the truth, interfere with Armenia's relationship with Azerbaijan, and manipulate the public policy of our own country. Our resolve to have the truth acknowledged should not waver even if our rhetoric softens a bit.
Armenians were never the lowly subjects, toiling and sweating for the sake of the ruling class of Ottomans.
This is nonsense. You may be talking about a handful of elites. But if you read the Armenian literature (of those, for example, taken on April 24, 1915) from before the genocide you will read only of grueling poverty, hardship, despair that nothing will get better, terror (from random killings, disappeared, girls kidnapped and forcibly converted to Islam). This is sheer nonsense, that people became a part of the "Balkanization" when they had it good!!
And Armenian political parties did not only consist of nationalists but also of other who worked together with Turks for a more democratic country overall and were anti-nationalist. They were among the first to be murdered in the genocide.
Gary, it is very common in victim psychology to find that victims blame themselves and their own "bad" behavior or judgment for what happened to them. As irrational as it may seem to us, it makes the evil appear less random and gives the victim a sense of control, which is easier to cope with psychologically. It is also not uncommon to find survivors dealing with their own survivor guilt by placing blame on the behavior or bad judgment of those who didn't make it. It is all part of the coping process while trying to make sense of a traumatic event. Of course, not every victim or survivor experiences these thoughts and emotions, but this may explain some of the reasons for your Uncle's thinking. This may also help us understand why some Turks are so prone to believe the stories that suggest Armenians brought this on themselves. It is easier to blame us than to accept the alternative view of their inherited legacy and subsequent responsibility. This is where Karekin has a point when he suggests that we be patient and begin to show empathy for the Turk who has a heavy burden to come to terms with.
The human mind tries to make sense of things and can do strange mental gymnastics when things don't make sense.
SG -- Thank you so much for responding to my request. Very useful for Armenians to know what was going on out there. I admire these brave people, really, my hat goes off to each and every one of them. They give Turkey hope, they give the world hope...
Dear Gary,
Thank you for your post. Very sincere and believable arguments. And I agree with you in most part. And I think I understood a while ago what could be the basis for Karekin’s twisted convictions. However, his personal convictions give him no right to insult Jesus Christ as ‘some carpenter with magic tricks.’ I believe he crossed the line of civility and respect for other people’s religious feelings by such a despicable phrase. Were there such antichrist attitudes in your polsahay uncle’s family?
Respects,
A
Thank you SG
Dear Readers,
This article is not real actually. There is no Ersin Ozbukey as Foreign Ministery's undersecretary. This is a fake character from a fake news web site that is built on total prank.
Sincerely,
Koray.
To: Anahit
There was no questionable behaviour in my uncle's (Diran) lifestyle. He and my auntie raised 3 beautiful daughters. No disrespect to our Christian heritage nor insults for our Lord Jesus Christ. His only unacceptable theory was that he blaimed the ARF being the reason for the martyrdom of the innocent population.
This hurt my grandpa big time, as grandpa was a very strong ARF member.
To: Boyajian
Your comments are well noted. Thank you.
Vi, Vi Karekin...how did you manage to say such ugly things about our Lord Jesus Christ? I hope you have repented and asked HIM to forgive you for the disrespect?
One thing we know for sure...that the Lord Jesus will forgive us no matterw what we have done or said....however, we have to repent and ask for HIS forgiveness.
Have you done this already? If you ask HIM to forgive you and do it publicly I believe that the people in this forum will also forgive you! :)
We all have to do what is right!
G
What did the Russian leaders, Putin and Medvedev, have to say this April 24, and all throughout the year? ZERO. Same as in previous years.
So, I ask you: Why is it so important that the US, which is not even an ally of Armenia, to acknowledge the Genocide when Russia, which is a so-called strategic ally of Armenia, does not commemorate the genocide in any substantial way, except that years ago the Duma acknowledged it?
Because while we expect the US to get Turkey angry with an acknowledgment, we understand completely that Russia does not want to ruffle Turkey's feathers.
I would like to ask the Armenian Weekly and all Armenian papers to take a closer look at Russia if they are going to harp incessantly on the US.
I'm waiting.
Nice article Lalai jan,
True, we sensed the unity throughout all the events during these past two weeks, from seniors all the way down to the Youths.
I just hope that whenever necessary, all armenians in the community will unite again for common causes, and it won't be contingent upon who the administrators are during the upcoming years.
Hi, Mike,
The answer is simple. In contrast to the U.S. Russia is already among almost 30 countries that recognized the genocide of the Armenians. In contrast to the U.S. Congress, Russian Duma (lower chamber of the Russian Parliament) has passed resolutions acknowledging the historical fact. Therefore, there’s little incentive for the Medvedev/Putin duo to utter the ‘G’ word specifically on or before April 24. They can do so whenever they like. Besides, Russians don’t have a Western democratic tradition of making addresses on various domestic and foreign policy issues on regular basis. Russian Armenians, Russian intellectuals, media reps, members of federal and provincial administrations, and members of the Russian Parliament, as a rule, attend Genocide commemoration events.
Why is it so important that the U.S. acknowledge the Genocide? Because in contrast to Russia, the U.S. likes portraying itself as a beacon of democracy, human rights and high moral standards. Because being a democratic country the U.S. needs to respect the 95-year old plea by its almost 2 mln constituencies of Armenian origin. Because if the U.S. does not want to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, the country’s presidential candidates don’t need to give baloney promises to recognize it during the election campaigns. And finally, because Armenian-Americans have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to representatives on federal and state levels to acknowledge the historical truth.
But it appears that mighty U.S. cowers before the paper tiger Turkey, a country for which the U.S. has provided 240 bln in aid, saved it from communism, provided help in smashing the Kurdish insurgency, and champions its entry to the European Union.
But where are your moral values, America the Beautiful, America ‘the Great’?
Political solutions can only go so far but spirituality can heal the deepest wounds that a person or a nation has Every nation has its share of hate but love and compassion can build bridges of peace that will not collapse It good that Jews and Armenians come together and share their collective pain We know that human beings are capable of the most despicable crimes against their fellow humans but we also know that human beings are capable of unselfish acts of altruism History is replete with both examples We are in the 21st century and now is the time to realize that we are one world family thus treating one another with love and respect because that is the only way to end war and have peace and prosperity
I wanted to know why no mention was made of the changed venue anywhere online. Or no mention of a secondary venue was advertised in case of rain. I traveled from Boston to NY to be a part of this commemoration. When I got to Times Square on Sunday there was a big banner and a few Armenians gathered with one flag, which I found disappointing. I wasn't sure what I was expecting, but I thought there would be more people. There was no sign anywhere saying the commemoration had moved and no where online that mentioned it would take place 5 avenues and 8 streets away in case of rain. I even checked on the morning of April 25th for any changes and failed to find any. I am sure I was not the only person with this experience. I am very glad to read that the event took place and that there were 3000 present. I hope in future years there would be more advertising or updates when venues change. Thank you.
Arden 2 angam tesel em Arazi nkarahantas filmy ev uzum em shnorhakalutyun haytnem irenic, vor aprelov Hayastanic heru , bayc aydqan hayrenaser hayuhi e. Es qez shat sirum em:
Hye, thanks Paul. The USA leaderships,today, with Obama not recognizing the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - as he had pledged - hence he cannot also recognize the Darfurian Genocide. Obama cowtows to a nation that ridicules the issue of Genocides - using PLOYS over and over to delay, distract and to even destroy efforts bringing their guilt to justice . Too, the American media, takes a stance which negates the horrors of Genocides by barely giving any recognition of the facts... committed by Ottoman and their leaderships that follow...
- 44 of 50 USA states today recognize the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians
(including Hawaii - where Obama says is his birthplace(...
- International Genocide organizations recognize Turks Genocide of Armenians
- Archives the world over filled with eyewitness accounts of Turks violence
- the Vatican recognizes the Genocide of the Armenian nation by Turks
- the New York Times, having overcome their omissions, printed news of the
Turkish violence during the years of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians
- Members of Congress, recognizing the need to end the cycle of Genocides,
dedicate their efforts, against paid Turkish lobbyists...
- Learned and honest writers, the world over, who number amongst those who
continue to speak up for the Armenians, dedicated to the honest of the issue...
And, for shame to the US State Department, their former Ambassador Henry Morgenthau's continued pursuit seeking recognition of the Turkish leaderships
inhumanity to the Amenians written as well, in his memoirs.
Omissions of the facts aids the Turks, who have been violating truths these 100 years...
Hence today, a Turkey has 'gotten away with murders' and worse! Crimes which, when commited in most nations the perpetrators would be found guilty and penalized by their laws.
As yet, Genocides are not considered to be 'against the laws'...
- perpetrators - winners;
- victims - losers!
Politics wins - Morality lost...
Manooshag
The clinial definition of insanity is when someone engages in the same action, over and over again, expects to see a different result and goes nuts when he doesn't get it. My point is that there is absolutely no need for me to reiterate everything we already know about the genocide, who did it, etc, etc, etc. We've all read those details a zillion times for many years. Preaching to the choir doesn't do much good to change those outside the church. The Turkish govt is outside of our church...and retelling genocide horror stories to each other is not productive of a good use of your intellectual energy. If you want to make a serious change, you do what Khatchig is doing - you go to Turkey and you talk w/ people who can make a difference. This is an important change in behavior. Rather than huddling in a hole as Armenians have been doing for a very long time, some of us are now reaching out to the other side. It is an aspect of bridge building....and that's what we need now...not the same old crowd ranting w/ torches in the dark, which has not gotten us what we really want. In fact, it's just turned Armenians against each other, apparently. Just witness these pages and the vitriol that is spewed toward anyone who doesn't conform to a certain mindset. Instead of using that energy to go after the US, Israeli or Turkish politicians who actively work in an anti-Armenian way, some writer here feel the need to bash fellow Armenians who are also trying to help, but in new ways that may, in fact, be alot more effective. Please get off the hatred and anger treadmill folks....it's very tiring and not very useful at all.
This is a big step in the right direction. Why is there no support from the Armenians for this event? Does it always have to be so much hate with your pain?
Khatchig and others involved in this effort deserve alot of credit because above all, they are making a positive effort and working to change the status quo. It is admirable. At the same time, we should also recognize that this could never have happened under previous Turkish governments...and as a result, some praise should go to the current govt of Turkey, which appears to be moving in the direction of Mikail Gorbachev, and the opening up of Russian democracy via his policy of glasnost. It is all for the best, for everyone involved...Turks, Armenians, Kurds and other minorities. It shows a more mature, confident attitude towards itself...something that has been lacking in Turkey for a very long time.
Thank you for the informations
Bravo to all the attendees and to the courageous Khatchig Mouradian.
This is a big step in the right direction. Why is there no support from the Armenians for this event? Does it always have to be so much hate with your pain?
There's plenty of support voiced in the comments already. The problem is the usual nonsense about all Armenians from the likes of you.
Instead of using that energy to go after the US, Israeli or Turkish politicians who actively work in an anti-Armenian way, some writer here feel the need to bash fellow Armenians who are also trying to help, but in new ways that may, in fact, be alot more effective.
Do you REALLY have no idea what we've been doing in lobbying governments and politicians over the past 25 years then?
Karekin, you are a lost case. If after being on these pages for so long you came to a conclusion that commentators here are full of ‘hatred and anger’. When confronted with straight questions, you choose to huddle in the hole like coward. When confronted with the demand for apology for insulting Lord Jesus and our religious feelings, you choose to disregard it like coward. Compare your denial to apologize with the denial to recognize the genocide, and decide for yourself whose national features you bear more: Armenian or Turkish?
If you’re trying to help ‘in new ways’ and feel that Armenians are filled with ‘hatred and anger’, why haven’t you, as one commentator here rightly argued, just once, balanced your reprimands to Armenians that denounce the Turkish State with reciprocal reprimands to Turks for being reluctant to face the crimes committed by their forefathers? You claim you’re saddened to see ‘the rage that ensues when someone voices a thought or idea that does not conform to someone’s way of thinking.’ But don’t you think your own thoughts and ideas can cause rage when you knowingly derogate Christian relics as in ‘Jesus Christ is some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks’ or when you knowingly make our wound swell as in ‘Armenians perhaps should thank Talaat Pasha for living much better lives now’ or when you knowingly insult the souls of innocent victims as in ‘Demanding recognition [of genocide] is not helpful or productive’? or when you knowingly spit out dozens of other ‘ideas’ that outrightly distort the ethnogenesis, history, national distinctiveness (in geographical and linguistic terms only), and religious beliefs of the Armenian people? When you allow yourself these scoldings, don’t you think they could be perceived as demonstration of hatred and anger by the commentators and readers here?
You’re free to have your own vision, your own convictions, your own new way of tackling the issue. You want to go to Turkey and talk with people who can make a difference? Fine, go. Noone would ‘bash’ you for having this mindset, especially as we recall that nowhere else have you been treated better that in Turkey. You’re free to help in this new way if you think it’ll work. But understand that other people find ways of being helpful in academic, international, legal, advocacy, human rights, political, financial, and other endeavors. At the end of the day all of these efforts, cumulatively, including your ‘new way,’ will bring a long-awaited recognition and tranquility to the Armenians.
And this is relevant because? Kim Kardashian is a celebrity for what? Come on people raise the bar, have some standards.
Here's some of what the speakers said:
http://centerarnews.com/clients/centerarnews/eternal-vigilence-th-times-square-commemoration-of-the-armenian-genoci-p3136.htm?twindow=Default&smenu=1&mad=No
Here's where you can see/hear each speaker on YouTube:
http://www.armenianradionj.com/
(Click on "special eVideos ...")
Hye, thanks Paul. The USA leaderships,today, with Obama not recognizing the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation - as he had pledged - hence he cannot also recognize the Darfurian Genocide. Obama cowtows to a nation that ridicules the issue of Genocides - using PLOYS over and over to delay, distract and to even destroy efforts bringing their guilt to justice . Too, the American media, takes a stance which negates the horrors of Genocides by barely giving any recognition of the facts... committed by Ottoman and their leaderships that follow...
- 44 of 50 USA states today recognize the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians
(including Hawaii - where Obama says is his birthplace).
- International Genocide organizations recognize Turks Genocide of Armenians
- Archives the world over filled with eyewitness accounts of Turks violence
- the Vatican recognizes the Genocide of the Armenian nation by Turks
- the New York Times, having overcome their omissions, printed news of the
Turkish violence during the years of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians
- Members of Congress, recognizing the need to end the cycle of Genocides,
dedicate their efforts, against paid Turkish lobbyists...
- Learned and honest writers, the world over, who number amongst those who
continue to speak up for the Armenians, dedicated to the honesty of the issue...
And, for shame to the US State Department, their former Ambassador Henry Morgenthau's continued pursuit seeking recognition of the Turkish leaderships
inhumanity to the Amenians written as well, in his memoirs.
Omissions of the facts aids the Turks, who have been violating truths these 100 years...
Hence today, a Turkey has 'gotten away with murders' and worse! Crimes which, when commited in most nations the perpetrators would be found guilty and penalized by their laws.
As yet, Genocides are not considered to be 'against the laws'...
- perpetrators - winners;
- victims - losers!
Politics wins - Morality lost...
Manooshag
Yes, such events are important and commendable, noone denies it. But Armenians know the Turks from both historical and behavioral perspectives and most of us wouldn’t get so overexcited bearing in mind an incentive for the current Turkish government to allow such events. As the Turks smell that the waves of international recognitions continue they may as well demonstrate to the world, by means of allowing such events, that Turks can work out problems with the Armenians bilaterally. Thus, no international intervention and further recognitions are needed. This may be an alternative way of thinking, and not necessarily perestroika a la Gorbachev. Wasn’t the current Turkish government in power when Hrant Dink was assassinated and behind-the-scene perpetrators never punished? Wasn’t the current Turkish government in power when it cynically announced that they could deport Armenians residing in Turkey? Is it not the current Turkish government that vehemently denies that genocide of the Armenians ever happened? Is it not the same Turkish government that hindered the protocol process by introducing preconditions and linking the Turkish-Armenian rapprochement with unilateral concessions on Nagorno-Karabakh? Is it not the same Turkish government that retains the notorious Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code? Is it not the same Turkish government that provides no guarantees for the safe return of its most prominent intellectuals, including the Nobel Prize laureates?
Armenians! No matter what, with or without changes in the Turkish society, whether they are sincere or insincere, positive or negative, admirable or unworthy, our efforts at international recognition of the Armenian Genocide MUST NOT cease. We know the Turks, their sneakiness, flattery, and ability to avoid bearing responsibility for crimes. Make no mistake in handling these new developments at this historical juncture. ‘Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me…’
Just like Kurt, you are also a lost cause Karekin... as many here voiced...
I understand that you may have a strong desire to make things right but the way you are going is not the most successful way..i and many of my comrads here feel pretty much degraded and disrespected when we are contineously being called angry people with lots of hate ... ..
You tell us to go to Turkey and talk to people.. This is how we change their mindset.. Well if you are that optimistic, why don't you do that? You have not said one word about how YOU as such pro-Turkish person is accomplishing this...Are you talking to the Turks? Are you teaching them to be brotherly and recognize the Genocide? Are you teaching them about who Armenians are and how determined we are no matter how friendly, loving, and patient we are???.. I have not seen your reply to any of the numerous questions from the commentators about what Turkish sites or blogs do you visit to voice the same brotherly messages ..this means your words and koch does not stand a valid ground among the Armenians who truly care about the country, history and Genocide......
Until you prove that you do the same with the Turks, please do not get upset when we point out your insecurities and incorrect statements.. some of us pointed out your pro Turkish comments and negative comments about the Armenians...but it does not matter for you.. I feel that you continue to stick to your own agenda and refuse to be separated from it.. ...you think this is not tiring for those of us trying to show you a different face of the matter???
You may have a good heart, and you may have good intentions; however your thought process and your way of going about changing the mindset here is just a bit too obscure and ridiculeous... I am sorry to say... this is not to say that you did not have some things that were positive.....
Keep reading the comments that your comrads are writing to you.. seek to understand first before asking to be understood....
Thank you
Gayane
There's no "s" on information in English, Dr.
Thank you ....
It gives us a little bit of hope to know that Turkish intellectuals are open to discuss the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians ...and not only that but also what needs to happen to repay all that were lost..
Please keep us posted of any advancements..
Thank you again
Gayane
Akkum.. i would like to thank you for your sincere desire to make things right...
Your gesture of doing such great deed is much appreciated... It is the thought that counts and we all know, where there is a will, there is a way.. regardless how much Turkey will oppose your idea..with people such as yourself fighting and going after what is right, justice will prevail...
Please do keep us updated on the progress of your plan.
God be with you
Gayane
To Onder,
You ask "Does it always have to be so much hate with your pain?". I would like to point you to the many hateful comments being spewed by the counter demonstrators in the video. Comments like "love it or leave it" are clear indication of democracy not being generally accepted. We (non Muslims) have heard it for the last 85 years in Turkey. Now it is used against fellow Turks. What a shame...
As I indicated in my earlier comment, I have nothing but respect and admiration to the people who did partake in the April 24 commemoration ceremony. It is a BIG step. However, let us remember that it took 1,000 policemen to protect 200 people, under the most difficult situations. I read that the police had to form a wall around the group so they wouldn't be harmed. There was a lot of hatred at Taksim that day, and none of it emanating from Armenians. It it hard to determine who feels more hatred, just as it is hard to determine who suffered more in which genocide. There can be no reconcilitation without acceptance and then repentance (and some argue restitution). Then and only then will our wounds start to heal.
AMEN Narek.. AMEN..
I am with you 110%... No matter how much they dangle the orange carrot in front of us, we should not grab it.. They are very intelligent and know the tactics to get around the problem all together.. They will never cease.. which is WHY WE CAN"T and SHOULD NOT cease either.. NEVER AGAIN....
Janine, as always love your comments
Karekin, as always you are not going to win
SG, as always I admire you and I respect you.. Thank you
Onder, I dont' even know where you came from and what you represent.. need time to get to know you a bit....
God Bless...
Gayane
Karekin, I just don't see the anger and hatred that you see. I see passion fueled by righteous indignation, which seems appropriate to me. What's wrong with that? It's human to want to be understood and valued. When 1.5 million of your ancestors are killed and nothing is done about it, you can begin to feel angry over how disposal these lives have been treated. Why not have some more compassion for your fellow Armenians along with your good advice to tone down the rhetoric and proceed in good faith to promote dialogue?
Well said Josh Well said.. Apres....
Nick must be on cloud nine because there will never be: forgetting and moving on until we get what we are entitled to... He must be dreaming.
Jda--- you may have good points in regards to his speech; however the bottom line is he betrayed us... and he continues to support the on-going denial by not doing what is right.. hence, why we can't accept the reasonings no matter how valid they may be.... This entire matter should not have gone this far...Obama continuing his support of this inhumane treatment goes to show how much faith he has in what is just, right and absolute truth...
Simon- EXCELLENT commentary... Apres...
To: Karekin & Boyajian
I believe, you are both correct, with your statements. While we should alter our approach, so that we get the desired results...we must also not let our passion for JUSTICE be extinguished. After all, this is what all murderers hope for, to have no witness to their crime.
A non-Armenian friend, yesterday, said to me "Gary it's crazy to demand justice after 95 yrs. Who cares what happened 95 yrs.ago? The people today are not responsible for their ancestors'crimes". I agreed that he wasn't the only one who thought this way! However, what would he do if his daughter was murdered?
I explained that the people today are not guilty; but their State is!
The correct term 'righteous indignation' was and is upheld by our Lord Jesus. And I believe that HE preserved a remnant of Armenians, who have now grown into millions, in 95 yrs. , to let the world know that we didn't all die. Like it has been said, the presence of the Diaspora is proof for the Genocide.
Living people have the right to seek Justice for their dead! Dead people cannot seek justice even if they want to.
We also know that, even if justice is not achieved on Earth, in the END, God will certainly punish all of the guilty and wipe all our tears away!
G
THANK YOU PAUL... Excellent commentary...
THANK YOU MANOOSHAG.. for confirming and validating..
Hopefully it was enough for Michael K to understand as to WHY USA who repeatedly us the Armenian Genocide matter to collect the votes from million of American Armenians at every election... needs to stop this cowardice and wipe his nose from the crying as a baby .... US CAN"T bow down to a country like Turkey... What is wrong with this picture?? What is wrong with this system? What is wrong with our govt???
Gayane
Ani,
I’m with you. I watched the video 3-4 times paying a particular attention at the eye expressions of those ultranationalists chanting the xenophobic slogan ‘love it or leave it.’ Considering that eyes are the window to the soul, I couldn't help but wonder: had that reactionaist guy and his supporters been given a chance, would they stop from murdering that handful of brave people just as their forefathers did to Armenians? And, friends, looking at their beastly faces, I’d venture into saying they would. I should add immediately that by no means do I rule out a possibility that others would not. But it seems to me that expressing compassion is indicative of one’s individual characteristics, whereas brutality maybe existent and unconstrained in the Turkish society. I understand I can’t judge impartially by watching videos, such as this one or the one on Dink’s murder where the police posed smiling with the murderer for a photo opportunity, but I’m afraid little evolution had taken place in previously nomadic and then repressive imperialist nation after the great falsificator Mustafa Kemal handed a ‘new republic,’ cleansed of all native inhabitants and civilizations, to the new generations.
My suspicion worsened after picketing in front of a Turkish consulate on the 24th. There was a group of Turkish youngsters grinning as monkeys, mockingly laughing at our banners: enlarged photocopies of U.S. Ambassador Henry Morgenthau’s telegrams on race extermination of the Armenians and New York Times’ 1915 articles on whole scale massacres in Armenian-populated vilayets of the Ottoman Empire. Male youngsters, who were standing side by side with their female supporters, many of whom were wearing Muslim headscarves, were holding banners that read: ‘Armenian girls love Turkish boys’ and ‘Turkish boys love Kim Kardashian.’ Obviously, with a sexist content. Some Armenian children ages 8 to 13 or so, who were shouting ‘Turkey admit your guilt!’, complained to their parents after the event that Turks were making obscene signs to them. And I thought to myself: I can understand their government methodically brainwashed them for decades, but those jerks holding sexist banners and making indecent signs to the minors couldn’t possibly be victims of excesses of the government propaganda but, rather, excesses of societal behavior and evolutional immaturity.
The events in Istanbul and Ankara, although heavily guarded and probably in line with the government efforts to hamper international recognitions, were a big step forward, but I’ll never succumb into believing that the Turkish society on the whole has become mature enough to recognize their crimes by themselves. Only when pressurized by our efforts, by the efforts of foreign governments and organizations will their State be able to accept the truth and repent.
The truth will win, eventually because, just like an essential element of the universe, it cannot be destroyed.
Amen, Gary. So very true! Especially the last part. As for your non-Armenians friends question, I used to answer in such cases that the people today are indeed not responsible for their ancestors’ crimes, but their state must apologize for their ancestors’ crimes. By the way, many other non-Armenians understand out pain. I have an American friend of Scottish origin who, after hearing the news on those idiotic protocols, told me in tears(!): ‘How could you forgive without being offered an apology?’
I have no doubt whatsoever that we’ll come out victorious in the name of Jesus Christ, who, indeed, saved us as our Lord and Savior.
God bless.
A
How long after the Holocaust should a Jewish person start to tolerate Nazi rhetoric and stereotypes? An African-American the KKK? This question is atrocious. We still face much more hatred than anybody acknowledges. It's disgusting to think about. And the truth has to come somewhere into this question, and justice as well. Where is the mercy on the other side? Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, not its exception into masochism. Unfortunately we get a false picture of crucifixion as a masochistic act - that is total heresy IMO
Look folks...I HAVE been to Turkey, more than once...and I can honestly tell you that across the board, no one there I talked with (and this was many, many people at all levels of society) ever agreed w/ the their government's approach to the genocide. Over and over again, I was told that they know exactly what happened to the Armenians and that they blame the government. I was a bit amazed, but this is the truth. So...say you learn your neighbor's great-grandfather was a murderer a long time ago, went to jail, etc, etc, etc.....does this mean you don't talk to your neighbor? Does it mean you bang on their door and scream 'murderer' over and over again to their face? On a more personal level, my neighbor's older brother went on a rampage and killed three of my school classmates. What were those of us who lived next door supposed to do? Not talk w/ the family? Hold up signs saying 'murderer'? I think the rest of the family knew very well what the son did...and would not have appreciated those kinds of hurtful tactics. No one is saying or suggesting that Armenians forget anything, but the key here is getting the mindset of the controlling group in Turkey to change, and perhaps see or accept things from the Armenian point of view...and to show some human empathy. This can and will happen, if slowly. However, in order to get that, I believe WE have to change as well. As they say, if you throw mud, chances are, some of it is going to bounce back on you. Let's try to stop throwing mud all the time. Throw flowers instead, for a change...and see what happens. It can't hurt, because the truth is on our side.
...Thank You...
Arram
Excellent John.. Thank you for your comment.. After reading the part about the group of Turks doing unbelieable just disgusted me.. such disgrace.... it simply disguts me..
Karekin did you read that?? Please tell me that your Turkey is ready to move forward ... Turkey AS A WHOLE...not as individuals....
The only time the truth will win is when people start thinking and speaking the truth... but as I can see it.. you are not in sync with what truth is...you may have the right ideology about what truth should be but you have no idea how to obtain it or what it stands for... i don't know I may be off... I am just another Armenian woman .. An Armenian girl who loves Turkish boys.. (according to those low lives who stood in front of the Turkish Embassy on April 24th as John described).. Such disgrace.. making fun of all those souls who perished by rape and torture and murder... I spit on them for tainting and making a mockery of our Armenian women who were stripped from their identify, self, and THEIR OWN LIVES just so that Turks can enjoy seeing them raped, murdered, stolen or bought.. .....go ahead and tell us again Karekin how we should be nice and polite and patient with such acts....???. Unbelievable....
Ani jan.. thank you for pointing that out yet again because for some unknown reason, people like Onder and likes dismiss it... how convenient right???
Gayane
Inspiring to see banners that reflect our aspirations!
http://www.snkcreative.com/arnj/upload2/newsl050210.pdf
To the Editorial Board:
How can any of you on the board even look at yourselves in the mirror! You ought to all be ashamed of yourselves for your petty actions of racist discrimination and mass denialism!! May God help you all and have mercy on your souls!!
Karekin - regarding the example of murder. I presume someone went to the police, went to the courts, went to a justice system. If the system said, "Fine, terror is okay with us, you have no recourse" then maybe the family would take matters into their own hands, one way or another. A peaceful way to do that is through publicity, protests, even carrying signs around the neighbor's house.
But I guarantee you the victim's family would not waste their time FOR 95 YEARS begging the family to reconsider, "Oh please, feel our pain, be nice to us if we are nice to you." Don't you think that would be a bit silly, given the facts of the case already? This analogy does not hold water unless you just want to tell people to shut up.
And frankly, we can all see the people in the tape who are not "every person in Turkey" that you seem to want to portray, the ones who are shouting Kemalist slogans, the ones that the people in the vigil need protection from, the one who took his photo with the police after he killed Hrant Dink. You apparently have never heard of the Grey Wolves or any such thing. Well, I have never been to Turkey and I have met people who denied anything ever happened to Armenians, I have met people who hated me on sight, who were viscerally angry when I told them I was Armenian (when I was just introducing myself and actually just wanted to be honest and courteous and not hide from them anything). I have also met sympathetic people. But please don't tell us everybody feels like those in the Vigil. Nor that justice happens by some magic waiting period if we are just nice to people who in which there is already a philosophy of ethnic supremacy against the victims who always deserved what they got anyway.
I agree with the sign: Keep Turkey out of the EU.
Hey - let's have none of this nonsense about how if Turkey acknowledges the Armenian genocide that qualifies it to join the EU. Turkey has lots of other things about it that disqualify it from ever joining the EU. The main thing is, Turks are not even European people. I don't know what they are. They don't either.
‘Armenian girls love Turkish boys’ and ‘Turkish boys love Kim Kardashian.’
Clearly, the history of kidnapping Armenian women and forcibly converting them is excused if all of these women are only trashy sluts anyway. So goes the mythology that excuses brutality. Just like we "deserved" the genocide as a whole people. Unfortunately the protesters encountered the ugly racist stereotype, which must be alive and well somewhere.
To: Janine
Once again you have spoken your mind....Katch Aghchig! (Brave Woman!)
I wish I could have learned more Turkish from my grandparents. I didn't know I would need it? I know the opposition in the Vigil is angry but I can't tell what they are saying. Does it really matter? Some hate us!
Perhaps someone will translate for us who are not into Turkish?
Thank you for voicing and continued contribution to this form, Janine
G
To: Anahit:
Yes, forgiveness can happen only after confession of guilt, repentance, and in many cases restitution! Even small children know this.
Can you imagine a child refusing to own up to guilt? They know there will be no peace until they own up to whatever wrong they may have done. The difference is that depending one age, small children don't understand right-from-wrong! They learn quickly! It sure doesn't take decades!
G
Hmm... how many of the speakers ended up in jail? What happened to the claims that one can never talk about this subject in Turkey and Turks being so uninformed? One only hopes Armenians one day can also freely discuss this topic.
No one has to give the Islamic Republic of Turkey a bad name, they have done a great job of doing this themselves. Their policy of denial and censorship of Article 301 is SHAMEFUL. To deny that the true first inhabitants the indigenous people of Anatolia were not forced out of their ancestorial land is a LIE.
The yoke and sword of the Ottoman Turkey fell on many groups beside the Armenians: Lebanese Maronites, Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Arabs, Bulgarians, Assyrians, Kurds, Balkans, and so forth. The Ottomans goal was 1 person 1 nation 1 religion aka "Turkification" to Europe - middle east to Egypt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification
Killing, raping or stealing along the way. And Turkey wonders why no other country (besides the obvious Turkish ones Azerbaijan, etc) do not like or trust Turkey?
Turkey just keep on lying, it won't change the truth or the fact that 42 states in the USA and 22 countries have already formerally recognized the Armenian Genocide.
No one has to give the Islamic Republic of Turkey a bad name, they have done a great job of doing this themselves. Their policy of denial and censorship of Article 301 is SHAMEFUL. To deny that the true first inhabitants the indigenous people of Anatolia were not forced out of their ancestorial land is a LIE.
The yoke and sword of the Ottoman Turkey fell on many groups beside the Armenians: Lebanese Maronites, Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Arabs, Bulgarians, Assyrians, Kurds, Balkans, and so forth. The Ottomans goal was 1 person 1 nation 1 religion aka "Turkification" to Europe - middle east to Egypt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification
Killing, raping or stealing along the way. And Turkey wonders why no other country (besides the obvious Turkish ones Azerbaijan, etc) do not like or trust Turkey?
Turkey just keep on lying, it won't change the truth or the fact that 42 states in the USA and 22 countries have already formerally recognized the Armenian Genocide. Keep hiding behind expensive lobbyists to clean up your dirty image.
AMEN JENINE...
Karekin.. are you for real??? have you read any of our comments about those brave Turks who stand for justice???? WE Armenians throw FLOWERS andddddddd words of gratefulness, thankfulness and appreciation.. We call THEM our HEROS... have you missed those comments??? OH MY GOD.. you are killing me over here.. slowly... come on.. like i said.. get off your la la land and come into reality.. Your Turkey is NOT and WILL NOT be the rosy colored nation that you are trying SO HARD to portray... We repeatedly told you that we condemn Turkey as a whole. we praise those handful individuals and groups who got out of that denialist stage and saw the world in colors vs gray.. They are the brave individuals who we stand behind and encourage.. They do not need to wait another 95 years... despite the fact that Turkey to this day stops anyone from speaking of the truth, these individuals broke away from all this propaganda...why not the rest??? hmmmmm?? everyone has the chance to do so in Turkey, why don't they? Tell me....
You are correct in stating that truth is on our side... however, it does not seem you are....maybe one day.. who knows???
Anyway.. hopefully what you dream of you can accomplish.. but be careful of not throwing mud on the rest of the ARmenians faces just to save your face...
Gayane
Hey Robert (aka invisible Turk)
Please spare me your cries and hysteria... what is it with you Turks who post on these sites ?? all of you just love to be hysterical just when truth hits your skin.. . why you can't handle the truth and honesty ROBERT???? You can't handle the fact that what is being said here is very accurate without a doubt????
Here is what I would tell you SIR: Remember that GOD was, is and will be on our side.. Armenians were the first people to accept Christinaity as their religions; hence why my ancestors were slaughtered. It is because we did not want to convert.. .. So by you stating may God help us and have mercy on our souls... you are not threatening us... don't worry.. your soul will face the judgement day.. sooner or later.. and as I see it.. it won't be pretty..
Gayane
Dear Vagharshak,
In politics sometimes -when necessary-these also are taken advantage of.If millions follow her in ,or on twitter, then OUR CAUSE IS BEING BROADCAST TO MILLIONS,WHICH IS A PLUS indeed!!!!
Take care
Firstly, let me say that while 95 years is a long time, it is not the 500 years of subjugation, slavery and murder endured by the native Americans. And, if you live in the US - you are living on stolen American Indian land drenched w/ the blood of millions of natives. Second - it is always very important to know friend from foe, and I'm afraid that is missing in this forum. You may not realize it, but for hundreds if not thousands of years, one of the underlying reasons it was so impossible for a unified, independent Armenian state to survive for any period of time was because of the endlessfighting and bickering between the various ishkhans and nakharars who ruled their little feudal kingdoms. They spent more time attacking each other than anything else. Don't you think it's long past time for Armenians to stop attacking each other and start listening, cooperating and helping? This does not mean total agreement, but just an attempt to understand a different point of view. However, what we see here is mortal combat...against your own people. Get a grip, folks....neither I nor anyone else who disagrees w/ you is the real enemy. But, you can't and should not try to control everyone else's thought proccesses. Armenians have a tough time bowing to anyone, particularly another Armenian. So please don't forget that.
What I learned from my mother and grandmother was that angry, hateful people never win...and I believe that holds whether that person is Armenian, Turkish or anything else. You probably know the truism that you can attract more flies w/ honey than with vinegar. It works for humans as well. Do you really think Khatchig would or could do what he's doing if all he spewed was anger and hate? Yes, you can be hurt and angry all you want, but if you want to see the current situation change and improve - you must change your tactics. No adult wants to deal with a screaming, hysterical child...no matter what they are crying about...and more screaming at the child never works, as you probably know. So, a more mature approach as exhibited by Khatchig on his trip to Turkey is something everyone can aspire to, because it's the only way forward.
Gary and everybody, over on the thread called "Mouradian: Despite Obstacles.." a very kind poster named SG whom I think is Turkish translated for us what was happening in this tape on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gefh0IGlZ9A
Here is his translation from the other thread:
For about 1.30 minutes they are talking about giving the people space. The reactionist at 2.00 is saying
“This country won’t raise any traitors. While children of this country are giving their lives for their country, there are traitors being raised here. This country under the influence of…”
He is interrupted by the racist crowd. They start to shout “Here is Turkey. Either love or leave” which happens to be the statement related to Hrant Dink’s murder. Then the guy goes on “All the organization which allow this meeting, starting with the government, we are protesting.” Crowd then goes ”Either love or leave.” , ”We are the soldiers of M. Kemal Ataturk”. They also start to sing the national anthem at some point.
People who gathered to commemorate 1915 events are saying the exact text written on their website. Click the following link to read the English version of it: http://buacihepimizin.org//index.php?sayfa=2
Then a guy makes an announcement: Friends! We will be sitting here in silence for 30 minutes.
Murat- Armenians freely discuss this topic all the time, or maybe you haven't really read anything in this paper. We grew up with eye witnesses in our homes and our communities, I assure you we know more about the subject than you do. Stop crowing about your self-imagined supremacy and you might have a chance to be taken seriously.
I'm glad this happened. Too bad the security is necessary and so many of the speakers have already been in jail. I hope they continue to enjoy freedom in the future. Perhaps if this is really a change we will see many more, and 301 repealed so that people can use the word genocide without fear in the future. I hope something good comes from this conference, like real steps forward in the law and in actually addressing the problems it raises.
Josh; The civil liberties act is not an apology. Read your history. And as to the jews moving on, they haven't because they have been busy re-enacting atrosities on their neighbors.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/04/29/2010-04-29_noahs_ark_discovery_claim_in_turkey_sparks_excitement_but_experts_remain_skeptic.html
Hey, Murat,
Hmm… how many of the speakers uttered the word ‘genocide’ to risk ending up in jail? These people are brave but note that nowhere in their statement they ventured into calling the Turkish crime by its name. Your question is ridiculous. Hmm… how many of your intellectuals were prosecuted, tried, deported, and killed for talking about the subject? Haven’t you asked yourself that question? And what answer did you come up with?
And I hope that you noticed that a handful of honest people were guarded by some 1000 policemen. And I hope you also heard the chanting of those beastly nationalists “love it or leave it.” And you consider your country democratic? Who in the West would chant such idiotic, xenophobic slogans as ‘love the country or leave it’?
And I didn’t quite get what you meant by ‘one only hopes Armenians one day can also freely discuss this topic’? What do you mean by discuss? Armenians were subject to race extermination, civilization wipe-out in the hands of Ottoman Turkish barbarians. What else do you want us to discuss? Tell the increasing number of genocide-recognizing states and genocide scholars all over the world to discuss this topic and they’ll laugh to your face because such massive and undeniable evidence exists that at this stage no discussion, but acknowledgment of the fact is happening.
One only hopes Turks one day can also freely accept the guilt and repent for their heinous crime.
Gary,
A Turkish friend of ours, SG, has kindly agreed to translate in general what was happenning in the Taksim Square. Please visit 'Mouradian: Despite Obstacles, Armenian Genocide Commemorations Held in Turkey' and look up for SG and his comment.
On the other hand, Murat, these events might have been given a green light by your government ONLY to hamper the waves of international recognitions of the Armenian genocide. Give this alternative view some thought. Might it be? I think it well may. We, Armenians, know the Turks well...
Karekin, Janine, Gayane, Anahit, Karo, Gary, and all; we are beginning to fit Karekin's definition of insanity by doing (saying) the same thing over and over again, hoping for different results but getting the same result yet again. Let's agree to disagree. Different views for different people. Let's focus instead on what we all have in common: our desire to see Armenia prosper and official Turkish acknowledgment of what happened. Let's not make other Armenians the target of our criticism, but use our energies to work toward our mutual goal from all possible angles, whether it's diplomacy, protest, vigils, media attention, academic forums and conferences, feature films, documentaries, lobbying, talking to our friends, writing letters to lawmakers, writing poetry, prose or fiction, having coffee/chats with Turks, etc. In the end, we should support each other as we work for truth and justice for our ancestors as well as our countrymen in Armenia.
At the same time, let's not forget to live our lives as fully as possible right where we are. Let's do good as citizen's of the world, championing justice where we can and contributing to God's creation in a positive way. If we let the Turk's keep us in a perpetual state of tunnel vision, thus stifling our creativity, they have beat us coming and going. Armenia grows when Armenians grow. And as Armenia grows, it can better defend itself on the world stage against adversaries like Turkey and Azerbaijan.
I have so much respect for the passion and the intellectual struggle evident on this forum. There is a place for everyone's ideas, including enigmas, Turks, ARFer's, pacifists, fedayees, academics, mourners, activists and even the occasional mind-gamers. It keeps us all on our toes. May God hear our prayers
Excellent coverage by Khatcig Mouradian, although this Conference was a first in many aspects, specially discussing openly monetary and property losses suffered by the Armenians during 1915, to best of my knowledge this is not the first Conference which Genocide deniers were in absentee. That credit goes to the 2005 September Conference which was held in the Bilge University in Istanbul, during which late Hirant Dink was a participant and presented a paper called" Su Catlagini Buldu" ( The water found its crack). The reason I bring this up, is not intended to take away anything from this Conference since it deserves nothing less than full appreciation for all of its accomplishments, but we must also not to forget others who struggled even under more difficult times to organize such a Conference.
As far as Murat's comments, "please Murat be realistic and honest about facts" do you remember what happened to Hrant Dink because of this same issue? Do you remember court cases against Orhan Pamuk, Ragip Zarakoglu, Elif Shafak , AratDink, Baskin Oran and many others because of Turkish Panel Code 301? Although government is more careful now days not to charge people because of 301 violation, but believe it or not, 301 is still part of the panel code. Before anything else we need sincerity and knowledge to talk , to discuss these historical facts if we desire one day to heal the wounds and move forward. From your words I certainly don't see such sincerity, since you are either ignorant about the facts or hoping and/or pretending that the contributors to these posts are ignorant about these facts. To cure the first dilemma, and if you are really interested to learn, go and read independent archives ( US, German, French) and books written by third parties to understand what 1915 was all about and study the law as it is in the books in current Turkey. Regardless of what you claim, many Turks are still uninformed about the realities of 1915 since they never been thought that in the school system . 'Please" don't say you were, since I was a student of that school system, there was no mention of 1915 anywhere in the history books, the entire education system was designed to create an national amnesia about 1915. On the other hand, as a cure for the second dilemma, before writing anything to these type of posts it may help to remember that, the very panelist you may think you are challenging with your post, maybe already " been there , and done that" !
There is a place for everyone’s ideas, including enigmas, Turks, ARFer’s, pacifists, fedayees, academics, mourners, activists and even the occasional mind-gamers. It keeps us all on our toes. May God hear our prayers
I like this, Boyajian :-)
I also think that some people ears hear "hate-fest" when others are stating honest cries for justice, and honest truths about what has happened that has been swept under the rug. I have heard a non-Armenian friend describe a certain perception of truth from her life in certain parts of Middle East: "Truth is what I tell you." Well, in a Christian notion of truth -- and I think we can extend this to a modern world version of this understanding, at least as far as court systems are concerned -- truth means that injustices are exposed for redress and healing. It really doesn't matter who the perpetrator is in this sense: it's not about them. It's about the injustice covered up, the continuing injustice and insult of cover up, the lies that would hide a system designed to create nationalist inferiority of other races. I don't care which country we are talking about. I would not like this system in the KKK or any other party in the world. I have a duty to tell the truth of the witnesses who can't be here anymore, every time I see its attempt to be covered up.
You know, we are still getting posters taking shots at us here saying, "All Armenians only hate" because this one conference isn't something that will wipe out all attempts at any form of redress or even stating the truth of what still continues. We have posters here who keep insisting that Turkey is more free than Armenia in some sort of here-we-go-again assertion of superiority. Well, sorry, this does not get a free pass from me as it would not get a free pass from the people who were in that Vigil either. You either have a set of principles or values or you don't. I'm with the people in Takcim Square. They want the truth, they don't want a racist system that lets their country stay in this morass of "they deserved it because they weren't good little repressed subjects". I agree with them
And Karekin, the peoples under Ottoman Yoke suffered just as long as the American Indians did. Furthermore the US Congress has repeatedly recognized the wrongs done to the Native Americans. It's sad and horrible, and the history of racism that has gone with it also sad and horrible. Fortunately, most people don't want to prolong it, and the KKK never got enough votes to put a President in office, let alone a lasting ideology that defines the country. No country is perfect. But some people insist theirs be treated with kid gloves, as if it were really perfect. That's not hatred. Telling the truth can happen without hatred. A person who thinks they are above it will feel that as hatred. It's a universal problem, so one that we can recognize easily.
Dear "FromBoston": Absos that no detour signs were posted at Times Sq. Was the rally really moved indoors because of bad weather? The program was to honor our ancestors who succumbed / endured the genocide and the organizers are worried about getting wet in the rain? Amot.
Someone suggested some time ago to stop responding to Karekin, and I have to agree with Boyajian: ‘Different views for different people.’
Indeed, if one thinks that American Indians developed high civilization that’s been wiped out or if America was not densely populated by aborigine Indians and white men stole all vastly unpopulated lands from them, let him stay misguided.
If one thinks that during the medieval centuries only Armenian ishkhans and nakharars engaged in endless fighting and bickering and not that endless fighting and bickering was typical to all rulers of little feudal kingdoms across Europe, because in its classic sense feudalism refers to the Medieval European political system, let him stay misguided.
And if one thinks that if Armenians have a tough time bowing to anyone, particularly another Armenian, let him stay misguided because human beings are not obliged to bow to another human being, but only to God Allmighty.
I think part of the problem here is also with Armenian Weekly moderators, who otherwise do an excellent and highly commendable job, but at some point in this discussion they allowed an explicit religious offense in one of Karekin’s posts that outraged many commentators. I’m referring to his derogatory comment on Jesus Christ. Any insults, especially of religious nature, must not be allowed on these pages. I hope that given the volume of material moderators had to screen, this misdemeanor just slipped their attention.
The calamity is to translate "yeghern" as "calamity" in the term "Medz Yeghern". It emphatically means "Great Crime" in Armenian, an intentional violation of the universal moral code. Call it Great Atrocity, if you want. But why this "calamity, catastrophe, tragedy"? Why can't we preserve the dignified precision of the Armenian language? Why muddy the waters and help the denialists? Incredible.
I also found the line about Turks saving Armenian lives interesting but for a different reason. President Obama salutes the "Turks" for saving Armenians in 1915, but when it comes to the crimes committed against the Armenians, the emphasis is placed on the "Ottomans".
Ahmet, thank for posting the link to the artilce on Noah's Ark.
Might you know where Turkey had been when mountains of Ararat--on which the Ark had descended--was mentioned in the Holy Bible?
if you want to see the current situation change and improve....you must change your tactics
Are we going to be punished if we don't? I have no idea what tactics you're talking about. Presumably the tactics of having marches and carrying signs and other universally accepted forms of public activism. Well, those got us where we are. I think they should be kept up, especially the activism in Congress. I listened to a Congressman tell us so this weekend (non-Armenian, btw). And righteous anger is highly appropriate under the current circumstances.
Thank you all for your comments
FromBoston -- That is really terrible! There has to be a way we get better organization in the future! In this day and age of PDF's, twitter, email everywhere and wireless phones we can do MUCH better than this!! (Honestly, I often feel this frustration; we are too inward. We can do better.)
oops
PDF's = PDA's (laughing at myself now)
OK, Karekin, we heard you, go along the path that you consider ‘the only’ way forward. Other people may rightfully consider other ways as ‘the only’ ways: legal, political, academic, financial, advocacy, revolutionary, evolutionary, etc. However, if you really think that angry people never win than you should have controlled your own anger when you dared to make anti-religious and anti-national comments. Sounds fair?
Everyone here, except perhaps, Boyajian, seems to be missing the point and becoming enraged over petty details. The point is that Gandhi overthrew the British Empire and out of India, not with hatred or anger or guns. Martin Luther King overcame decades of racism and hatred...again, not w/ guns, but with uplifting words. Nelson Mandela overcame apartheid. Khatchig has gone to Turkey with a message, not with anger. Now, you may want to downplay them, but these analogies are not insignificant to the Armenian story. They are something that everyone can learn from. The hatred I see and read here is really just awful, unproductive and frankly, disheartening. It is not something I aspire to nor is it anything I saw or experienced in my life, despite the fact that both my grandparents' families who were left in Turkey were wiped out. We can't change things that have happened along the way, we can only change how we react to them. You may choose endless anger and hatred, and perhaps feel that it elevates you to some mythical, good place, but honestly, that's just not for me. So be it.
Dear Shantagioum,
I think what Vagharshak is trying to say is there is a time and place for everything. The Armenian Genocide has no place in tabloid journalism. Just imagine organizing a dinner dance "celebrating" the Armenian Genocide, do you think this would be appropriate? I for one would not want my cause to be broadcast this way.
To: Boyajian
As usual, you have, once again, said the wise words!
"By not keeping his word, however, Obama has succeeded in undermining his own reputation and credibility with the American people and world public opinion."
1. "Reputation"
I believe it depends on the individuals opinion of Obama's reputation.
I for one have VERY low esteem of Obama's reputation.
2. "Credibility"
Again, I for one do not believe Obama has much credibility based on his performance to date.
3. Do you really believe the,"American people and world public opinion" are aware of Obama's recent actions regarding the Armenian Genocide ?
An American of Armenian Decent
The point is that Gandhi overthrew the British Empire and out of India, not with hatred or anger or guns. Martin Luther King overcame decades of racism and hatred…again, not w/ guns, but with uplifting words
Honestly I have to laugh at this Karekin. I had a professor at university who used to say that Gandhi's methods could only have worked against the British, and he pointed out what horrible things other colonial powers did to rebels, claiming Gandhi would have been wiped out by others. Let us ponder this idea. Do you really picture yourself in this role? And who has guns by the way? Who is advocating an armed struggle here? What have we been doing but pointing out injustice which Gandhi did loud and clear? Or do you think he just sat down and kept his mouth shut??? Then you don't know anything about Gandhi. Do you think that Martin Luther King did not point out every injustice? Every instance of hatred? Did he stop pointing out what was wrong or just keep his mouth shut??? Do you have any idea what he said about the war in Vietnam, against the policies of the government? So, we are not allowed to point out what is real here? What is racist? Where is your example of hatred, anyway?
You are pointing things out that don't exist. Much more hatred is expressed about us than by us -- especially here.
Where is the hatred you are reading? Why do you not condemn the hatred in the tape of the Takcim demo? And fail to recognize that?
By the way, nobody murdered all the Indians nor sought to, and nobody murdered all the African Americans nor sought to in this country. But we Armenians in Turkey suffered a genocide when our ancestors starting talking about their rights. Where are the Armenians where my grandparents were from in Kharpert? What do you think was done to the Gandhis who spoke about injustice among our people -- let alone to our grandmothers?
301 is still a fact, and any of the people who mention the word genocide can go to jail. We Armenians in the West do use Gandhi and King's non-violence -- or do you think his followers did not have signs, make pickets, and marches, etc???
So be it... And thus you left this discussion after advocating pacifism, goodness, and forgiveness without even uttering ‘I’m sorry’ for derogating Christ. If not for all other misdemeanor that Armenians heard from you here, at least for this one you, the one that portrays himself as a beacon of pacifism and forgiveness, could have apologized. Shame!
Janine, please spare your high intellect and passion for the Cause not for a lost cause... Let's agree to disregard all his comments, once and for all...
Karekin, Turks were mildly, MIDLY speaking 'angry,' when they essentially won back in 1984-96 and 1915-1921 by mass exterminating Armenians and wiping out Western Armenian civilization. You cannot apply your grandmother's saying to all life situations. Besides, it is not anger but indignation of a people who were subject to genocide and whose wounds are still bleeding because of Turkish denial to repent. What is so unnatural in our behavior?
Thanks again Gary.
Karo, I got the idea from you, no?
Karekin, you are really in a rut about this hateful Armenian thing. You are free to believe as you wish, and you make some good points, but they get lost when you criticize and insult people who feel differently than you. You may not feel upset, frustrated, angry or tired of waiting for Turkey to do the right thing, but others are. That doesn't make them better than you or you better than them. Just in a different place. Give it a rest, for your own sake. Why is this such a sticking point for you, anyway?
Nick, I meant to say Civil Rights Act of 1968 (as well as Voting Rights Act of 1965) are widely considered as apology (not are an apology) to the victims of discrimination, who may use the Act to seek redress. But even the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 re: Japanese Americans is relevant to your comment. And I didn’t quite make out how the second part of your comment re: Jews is relevant to the fact that Germans have apologized for the Holocaust in contrast to the Turks who until now deny the Armenian Genocide.
DEAR MR SASSOUNIAN THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS YOUR ANA LYSIS REGARDING PROTOCOLS AND PRESIDENT OBAMA'S ALIENATED STATEMENT WAS COMPREHENSIVE... ARMENIAN COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE...
IN ADDITION TO SWIDLING TURKS POLICY THAT ALL WE ARE AWARE THERE IS QUESTIONS ? A- DO ARMENIAN PRESIDENT MR. SARGSYAN AND OTHER ARMENIAN AUTHORITIES EVER READ THIS KIND ANALYSIS ?
B- DO PRESIDENT OBAMA CARES MORE ABOUT HIS ELECTION AND VOTES THAN AMERICAN VALUES AND COMMON HUMANITY??
DEAR MR SASSOUNIAN THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS YOUR ANA LYSIS REGARDING PROTOCOLS AND PRESIDENT OBAMA’S ALIENATED STATEMENT WAS COMPREHENSIVE… ARMENIAN COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE…
IN ADDITION TO SWINDLING TURKS POLICY THAT OF COURSE WE ALL ARE AWARE THERE IS QUESTIONS ? A- DO ARMENIAN PRESIDENT MR. SARGSYAN AND OTHER ARMENIAN AUTHORITIES EVER READ THIS KIND ANALYSIS ?
B- DO PRESIDENT OBAMA CARES MORE ABOUT HIS ELECTION AND VOTES THAN AMERICAN VALUES AND COMMON HUMANITY (IN OUR CASE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE)??
UNFORTUNATELY WE WASTE OUR NATIONS TIME FOR MORE THAN ONE YEAR BECAUSE OF WRONG POLICY...
DISAPPOINTED DR. BABAJANIAN AND FAMILY
Is Serge Sarkisian working for Russia, France and United States or for his people, may be for his oligarchs benefits only. Please Mr Sassounian ask him, why he ignore, while whole world of Armenians are against the protocols,and still he plays games.
Second, from now on we must send a message publicly to Obama, we don't give a damn if he use genocide word or not on April 24, we Armenians don't need his comments any more.
I graduated from Northwestern's Wesley Passavant School of Nursing in 1975. At the time, many students were international, coming from different backgrounds. As the only Armenian-American student in the Nursing program, there was no discrimination to report, though I understand in years past, there was a "quota" in the various schools...four Armenian's were allowed in the Medical or Dental Schools, for instance-per class. Although the vogue of quotas are past; the rights of all Genocide victims and their descendants were terribly marred by the University on that day. To make matters worse, my son and daughter in law were the person's "ejected." I was not aware that the University security did the "dirty work," but was somehow under the impression that the Chicago Police Dept. were involved. Another issue is the fact that, out of all the attendees, why were these two targeted? They were seated quietly, respectfully, to hear the "other side." It seems to me that their constitutional rights were violated, and that the University and ATAA should be liable for these constitutional infractions. We all know that they are free to speak, and we are free to do so, as well as listen. I believe that ANC and all Armenians should respond in kind to fill the lecture halls and venues where these ridiculous "conferences," are held, and should participate politely by citing the facts, and ask respectful questions which are truthful in nature. Only the truth will free our dead victims. Only the truth will assist our fellow victims of Darfur and Rwanda to acquire justice. So far, the Turkish reality has been allowed to perpetuate itself, lie after lie. As long as this happens, there will be no fear, and no punishment of the monstrous governments, militaries, and others, who think they have "world order," at interest. We are late in our protest and need to collect whatever reparation there is to pay for the damages and restore property, and then we will see what the Turkish government will do as great "Europeans."
John, Janine, Gayane: You're welcome.
Karekin: I sometimes agree with you and sometimes find your comments a bit exaggerated, like this one. You somehow managed to find the handful of people of Istanbul. I'm happy that you have open minded people around to discuss such sensitive subjects with.
Other than that, you're right. Not that I'm claiming that 1915 shall not be recognized internationally-mostly for I believe those countries feel the guilt too because they simply watched but gave no reaction as it happened- but at this point, after all the propaganda, pressuring Turkey will not make people suddenly see everything as it is. It makes them hold on to the lies tighter. Although, I'm not 100% sure, I think this aggressive attitude has something to do with seeing Ottoman Empire's fall as a fail and European countries seeing Turkey not good enough to be a part of EU as a shame for some portion of Europe used to be a part of the empire. As for the nationalists and Kemalists- who are, sadly, acting more racist than ever lately- are behaving this way because that's the only way they can belong to a category. Because some are certain that they are Armenian, Jew, Greek, Kurd and etc. whoever is left out can define himself as a Turk. Point out the differences more and you'll find yourself a term to finally define you.
These discussions, commemorations and other things might seem no big deal to you but in truth they are giant steps for Turkey. In time we came from "no, it's a huge lie" to "it is a great tragedy indeed but we can't name what happened as genocide". I do share Markar Esayan's thoughts on his article and suggest suggest it to be read if anyone here is interested and knows Turkish: http://taraf.com.tr/makale/11082.htm
"ANC of Illinois chairperson Nairee Hagopian... . She updated the community on the April 10 protest organized by the ANC against a denialist event at Northwestern University, where several Armenians were ejected because of their ethnicity, and announced the letter-writing campaign directed at Northwestern University president Morton Shapiro. "Chicago Armenians Mark Genocide," Armenian Weekly
Anonymo us - I hope you are sending him a letter.
My doctors worked at Michael Reese, a Jewish hospital; when it was closed because of financial difficulties, they worked at other hospitals in the area. There was always a little anti-semitism at the Northwestern Hospitals; that is one of the reasons I believe that Jews and Catholics had their own hospitals. Some of my relatives now work in Israel in the medical field. I would be curious to know if any of them are experiencing prejudice at the NU hospitals today.
Morgenthau's Genes Still Spreading Humanity
Morgenthau’s phrases are still alive
Will remain alive
Like any poet who felt with a nation
Mercilessly slayed,* without a real reason.
Morgenthau’s name can never vanish
By criminal hands, as they will remain illiterates,
They don’t know how to sign their correct names,
They lost even minute feelings ...they killed without regrets.
But Morgenthau’s’ cohorts are still feeling
Their grandfather’s internal sufferings
In spite of almost a century elapsed.
As every verb in His book written with soulful hands.
Their genes are born to serve humanity
Such genes will continue to race
To abolish the inhumanity—
That birthed in creatures, who are born slayers.
Those should not breathe with any humanitarian race.
Those, who still pursue spreading poisons
And try slaying sufferers' tongues and pens;
Those who want to live in peace with every religion and race.
___________________________________
* slayed; lyric verb for slain
Let Us praise those who helped and still helping Us,
And neglect those who intentionally
Try to forgot Us.
Dear Sassounian
After reading your Hearty Article many times,
I think President Barak is cheating the Turks not us.
If his 44 out of 50 American states recognized the genocide,
Can you convince that the rest 6 states will stay silent!
Even a seven old child who knows simple math will tell you ,
"The Armenians are winners."
I sent a letter to the Tate, and received a reply from a Ms. Charlotte Ashworth.
Both are below my email and her reply. I replied to her after this exchange, but I am not including that here.
From: Charlotte.Ashworth@tate.org.uk
Dear David,
Thank you for taking the time to email us your comments regarding the insert included with the exhibition guide for Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective. I am very sorry to hear that the content upset you.
The statement does not deny the Armenian genocide, but clarifies the terms used in the wall texts. No offence is intended in stating the findings of either the British Government and the European Parliament.
I am very sorry once again if the statement caused you any upset, we treat your views very seriously and, in touching upon these very difficult issues, there was no intention to cause offence.
Yours sincerely
Charlotte Ashworth
Charlotte Ashworth
Information Manager | Tate Modern
0207 401 5179, 07816 138 908
Dear Tate gallery director and public relations director:
Your Gorky writeup calls into question the factuality of the Armenian genocide of 1915 to 1923 that was committed by Turkey.
This is wrong of you.
By doing so, you are actually insulting the memory of the brave British and Commonwealth soldiers who died in WW 1 fighting the Turks and who tried to stop the war and thus put an end to the Armenian genocide.
You are also desecrating the memory of those British statemen, including Winston Churchill, who condemned the genocide of the Armenians.
You truly are spitting on the graves of all these fine people.
Those of the British public who know these things surely do not appreciate your stance.
I would like to hear your response by email.
Sincerely,
David ...
Israel’s acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide is highly unlikely not only for archetypal, political, and national security reasons, but also for religious reasons in that the current Turkish leadership, especially the military leadership, who essentially run the country, is strongly intertwined with Israel. Top military commanders, as well as some high-level government officials are believed to be the descendants of Sabbatai Zevi, a rabbi and kabbalist who claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, the founder of the Jewish Sabbatean movement.
In 1666,Zevi and some of his followers converted to Islam and became known as the Dönmeh (Turkish for ‘convert’). By the 1680s, the Dönmeh had congregated in Salonika, the cosmopolitan and majority-Jewish city in Ottoman Greece. For the next 250 years, they would lead an independent communal life handing down their secret traditions. By the 19th century, the Dönmeh established progressive schools and some members became politically active, others joining masonic lodges. Some of them joined the Committee on Union and Progress (CUP), the rebellious party known as the ‘Young Turks,’ who later perpetrated the heinous crime against the Christian Armenians.
With independence, in the 1910s, Greece expelled the Muslims from its territory, including the Dönmeh. The most prominent of the Dönmeh was the founder of the modern Turkish state Mustafa Kemal (‘Ataturk’).
Various groups called Dönmeh continue to follow Sabbatai Zevi today in Turkey. Some sources claim there are several hundred thousands of them in the country. Although outwardly Muslims, the Dönmeh secretly continue to observe Jewish rituals (such as circumcision, but at the age of three rather than eight days), pray in Hebrew, and have clandestine festivals and fast days that are Jewish survivals.
Vagharshak and Khosrovidukht; I seem to agree with you both as the Armenian Genocide and the memory of our beloved martyrs' memory have been for 95 years and shall remain forever in a very respectful and a solumn place in our hearts and in our memories. And it shall never ever be cheapen ever.
ARm jan... THANK YOU.. i just read Ahmet's shared article and start laughing knowing so well what his intentions were by sending that article to us..
However, AHMET (i thought you actually took our advice and took some time to educate yourself on the Armenian History that is accurately noted in other books than Turkish education system)...you forget that Mt. Ararat is in ARMENIA...and will always remain in Armenia...whether you like it or not.....
And of course Ahmet was not enough but Murat had to post his unreal comments.. My Lord.. how much can we say to these people.. ???? He is telling us to freely speak about the Ottoman Turks Genocide of Western and Eastern Armenians.. Is he for real???
I will stop here because my frustration from these ignorant comments is rising...
Janine, KYB, ArmenianKars, Soghomon.. Thank you for the posts......
Gayane
WOW Dave..
Is that what you go back? Really??? Is that all she could say???
I am going to send an e-mail to her as well.. This is pure disgrace and disrespect..
Makes me soooooooooooooooooooo pissed ....
Thank you for sharing.. this truly shows how much one can dismiss the truth.. truly a tragedy...
Gayane
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound? Sometimes I feel that Armenians make alot of noise amongst themselves and for that reason, hope to see the situation change. And, change in what way? Do you secretly hope that Turkey will collapse, a la Yugoslavia, and tiny little Armenia, barely able to stay alive now, can somehow assume control over 15, 20 or 30 million people in eastern Anatolia? I'd like to know what your idea of 'justice' might be, because other than a deep apology, I'm not sure anything else will ever be forthcoming from Turkey. While I understand the standard bargaining technique being used (ask a ridiculously high price, and hope to get at least half), I also think we Armenians need to be realistic in terms of expectations, demands and results. Fantasy is not appropriate, especially not outside of the Armenian 'bubble'.
Yes... please because I can't stand any more wounds from Karekin... and his Turkish encomplices: Ahmet, Murat, Robert, AB, ect....
however, I love to read the rebuttels from Janine and Karo and Gary to Karekin's comments... it gives everyone a sharp contrast what is right, and what is not.. It is a good educational forum... Karekin is free to voice opinions; however he thinks we are bunch of gendarms, sultans and Azerbajini soliers ready to slit throats and raise hell... My dear Karekin, someone who is not right in their mind may think such violence.... I know Janine asked the same questions I wanted to ask you myself Karekin.... (thank you my dear sister for these questions).. please be so kind and answer every single one..Even though we all know there is a high possibility that none of them will be answered.. Why??? Because you know we are nothing like the people you are portraying us to be...In addition, several commentators including myself asked you many times over : Do you share your peace and love thy neighbor with sugar and understanding with Turks??? Please give us examples of all the Turkish blogs you use to voice your peace loving thoughts and ideas....???
Karo jan...apres as always....your words always hit the bull's eye...
Boyajian.. De el chem asum.. You are a true leader.. .:)
Gary jan--- love your positive and affirmative posts..:)
God Bless
Gayane
Well, it's a sticking point for me because I've heard and read the same things from Armenians all my life...and very little seems to have changed in the overall attitude. We now have an azad Hayastan...but, no one seems satisfied by that....they want more and more, even though Armenia itself is barely surviving. I also feel that Armenians are, in general, in a rut about 1915, and while blame for the genocide rests with Turkey, how we react to it at this point rests with us. Nothing we can do can restore what was lost, whether it's people, or villages or anything else. Hoping, yearning and pining for something you can't have just leads to endless sadness, depression and related behaviors that are not healthy. It concerns me because even if tomorrow morning we woke up to learn that Turkey acknowledged the genocide and apologized for it, there are plenty of Armenians who would still not be satisfied. We all must move forward, not backward...and whining about the past, real or mythic, only makes sense for a certain amount of time, after which, it becomes debilitating. The reality is, most Armenians on the planet have never stepped foot in today's Armenia or even yesterday's...and have no intention of ever doing so, or even of living there, yet they act as if they can tell/demand things of others who are, in fact, living there. I think now is the time for a reality check, not fantasy demands, and that endless anger will produce nothing of value. And yes, I realize this is me, not you. So be it.
SG- you are an absolute delight and a shining star among darkness...
because of you, i have hope.. because of you, I see more people coming out and joining all of us in this fight...because of you, some people who absolutely refuse to believe or see a different side of this horrible page in history may start questioning their knowledge a bit more..and to show that what they THINK is right is no where close to how IT IS...thank you for standing on the side of the truth...
Gayane
Your essay brings me there and is very valuable to all of us. Keep up your writing ... you are very talented.
Jews from Azerbaijan from fighthatred.com and more conspiracy theory blames the Jews:
"The top religious organization in Azerbaijan claims that Azerbaijan's Jewish population, which makes up less than .1% of Azerbaijan's 9,000,000 citizens, intends to overthrow the government and gain control of the country.
Recently, the representative of the well-respected Caucasian Muslim Board, Haji Akif, accused Azerbaijani Jews of separatism in the city of Gobi. He went on to claim that the Jewish minority of a few thousand was planning to overthrow the local government and subjugate the entire area to Israel.
Jews have maintained a presence in Azerbaijan since as early as 7th century CE. The Azerbaijani Jewish community has been a diverse mix of Jewish cultural subgroups, including Mountain, Georgian, Ashkenazi, Kurdish, Bukharian and Krymchak Jews.
By the beginning of the twentieth century, the Azerbaijani capital Baku was a flourishing center of Jewish life. Although repressed when Azerbaijan became a part of the Soviet Union, Azerbaijani Jews managed to maintain their cultural identity throughout the rein of the USSR. In 1970s, the Jewish community of Azerbaijan totaled over 40,000 individuals. Due to immigration, the number has fallen to under 10,000.
Following Azerbaijan's independence in 1991, the Jews regained the cultural freedom that they lacked during Soviet rule. Unfortunately, along with this came numerous attacks against the Jewish community.
Attacks by militias, the smearing of synagogue walls with feces and desecration of Jewish gravestones have taken place on numerous occasions. In addition, ethnic violence against Armenians living in Azerbaijan often spilled over to attacks against the Jews in the early 1990s.
The Islamic Party of Azerbaijan, which is banned from being represented in the Azerbaijani government, often writes anti-Semitic articles in local newspapers and propagates anti-Semitic rhetoric on radio channels. The organization has a long history of charging the Jews with trying to take over Azerbaijan." From Fighthatred.com
Gayane thank you kouyrig and everybody else
I guess according to some people "Looking beyond Genocide and Debating Reparations" (as in the title of the article on the conference) as at the recent conference is not progress, just some never-never land of fantasy (at best).
Do you hear that Khatchig? Karekin thinks the topics of your conference are just fantasy. Wow, and then the rest of us are told we don't recognize progress in the conference. Talk about projection !
One of them, the Baku-born Yosef Shagal, said Israel should not pass judgment on what he described as a Turkish-Armenian dispute.
So, from your comments, I should understand that Kim Kardashian does not have the right to answer a denialist just because of what. She did not go on a campaign expressing an opinion, the comment came to her on her twitter and she gave that person a good answer. You may or may not agree with the way the became a celebrity, that's her life. What are you all complaining about!
I guess some people think that "moving beyond genocide, debating reparations" is just the stuff of fantasy and a waste of time
This is one more example of progress. Let's hope it continues.
Dear friends,
I wonder if Jews can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for roughly 2000 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to re-create their lost historical homeland? But they persisted and achieved the national goal. This is the kind of nation I come to respect! Besides, what some portray as ‘more’ was, in fact, originally their own, not some other invader nation’s land.
I also wonder if Germans can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for some 45 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to get back half of their historical homeland that’s been occupied by the Soviets?
I also wonder if the Japanese can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for 65 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to receive back part of their historical homeland in Kuril Islands?
I wonder if the Argentineans can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for 177 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to get back a portion of their historical homeland in the Falkland (Malvinas) Islands.
I wonder…
Well, sorry but I think this comment about "donmeh" is in the realm of "secret conspiracies" and all that and I for one will dismiss it completely. Nobody else is responsible for what Turkey has done with Turkish identity in the role of genocide and cleansing of all Christian minorities. I understand the role of Israel in terms of politics, etc in modern day and alliance with Turkey. Also those in the Knesset who may be from Baku originally.
But I say BRAVO to the Israeli deputies who wish to openly debate this and support its passing! Bravo to the Israeli and worldwide Jewish scholars of genocide (including of course Rafael Lemkin) who acknowledge and openly push for Israel's acknowledgment of the genocide, regardless of political alliances.
Furthermore, it is ridiculous to think about the whole Jewish community in Thessaloniki and lump them in with "donmeh." Up until the Nazi occupation of Greece the Jewish community there remained a large center of Jewish life, not Islamic, so the vast majority did not fit into the "donmeh" profile. I totally reject and condemn the "realpolitic" nonsense about Ottoman Turkey as some great ally, and especially modern day action by Jewish lobbying groups and Israel to act against recognition in any form. I think that is as shameful as if we Armenians refused to recognize what the Nazis did. Equally AMOT! (shame) Bravo to Oron and Rivlin et al
I don't understand why the Armenians and Jews, who face similar problems in Azerbaijan, Turkey, etc., don't get together and try to solve the problems together. Problems like pogroms and desecration of houses of worship and cemeteries in Azerbaijan. These are the problems today. Instead of dealing with the issues and people involved in a constructive manner and dialogue, the usual "_____" is posted under "Nicholas."
Israel has many political parties and Jews from many countries.
I guess if one wants to hear a sound when a tree falls in a forest, one must be there and hear it. Armenians make a lot of noise not amongst themselves, but throughout the world. The last thing that dies in a human soul is hope. It also lifts the spirits.
Empires unimaginably collapse. Nation-states disintegrate. Unrecognized states receive de jure recognition.
Jews, as a tiny little nation, demanded and been offered apology and up until now receive reparations.
Tiny little Kosovo, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia fought for their independence and gained it.
Tiny little Nagorno-Karabakh undoubtedly will.
It’s a matter of what you’re made of inside. If you’re made of self-deprecation, you’ll achieve nothing.
I think this was one of the most important demonstration/genocide related activity this year. I believe that the change will and must come from within. I would have loved to be there this year supporting those brave men and women who took a HUGE risk by taking the streets and demanding that truth be heard and justice be served. It is time for the diapsora to refocus its energy on supporting and empowering this type of turkish action rather than only yell at foreign governments for recognition and demand lands from the Canadian, American or French governments... this is what we used to do when I was in Montreal!
Karekin..
I sincerely believe you need some sort of help...you said
It concerns me because even if tomorrow morning we woke up to learn that Turkey acknowledged the genocide and apologized for it, there are plenty of Armenians who would still not be satisfied. We all must move forward, not backward…and whining about the past, real or mythic, only makes sense for a certain amount of time, after which, it becomes debilitating.
You think we are whining by demanding justice? You think we are whining by sharing our frustrations and unfairness with the world (who by the way is beginning to see the real picture step by step)....Who is joining us on the Ship called Righteousness and Fairness...You think we are whining when we call the liars, murderers, spinless human beings by their real names? You think we are whining when we tell the world to wake up with our marches, commemorations, speeches, conferences, ect??.... You think we are whining because we point out how much you are off on certain topics?? WOW.. are you for real????
We now have an azad Hayastan…but, no one seems satisfied by that….they want more and more, even though Armenia itself is barely surviving.
So what you are saying is that Armenians now have a free Hayastan so we need to shut up and be happy with it?? Are you seriously suggesting for us to stop pursuing the recognition of the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians??? Are you saying we are greedy and should be satisfied with a land that was forcefully taken from our ancestors and from us by the Turks? Are you suggesting that we should thank them for allowing us to have Hayastan? We should thank The Armenian govt for maintaining the independent Armenia and simply go on with our lives?? WOW
You speak of Armenians wanting more and more when, all we want is what WAS and SHOULD BE OURS? We would not be here if we were not pushed and killed out of our own home.. Armenia survives mostly because of Diaspora... You think it is because of our Govt that the Armenia is surviving?? You must be a fool to think that we should sit back and close our eyes, ears and mouths just because we got an Ankagh Hayastan....I don't know Karekin..When I think you can't surprise us anymore, you do the opposite and hit us with comments that just leaves me in shock all over again..
I tell myself many times over not to click "Submit" every time I read your comments but chi statsvum..
Gayane
A very touching article, Khatchig. These commemoration events that took place on Turkish soil for the first time on April 24 since 1915 mark a cornerstone in the history of our nation. It's a victory for the Armenian Genocide suvivors and all their descendants who took upon themselves the legacy of fighting till the dawn, when justice will prevail. God bless them all. And you're one of them.
AMEN Sylva jan... :)
Yes WE ARE THE WINNERS... whether or not Obama kam el ira shun Clinton say the word or not..
I wonder how Obama is going to convince the Armenian Americans to vote for him for his next reelection.. HA.. I have already crossed his name and Clinton's from my memory.. Who is Obama??? Who is Clinton??? Two bought out individuals who swallowed their conscious for piece of politics...
Gayane
I got goosebumps where I read the article..
Very powerful. Khachig, I hear the footsteps too...
We will have the victory..
God Bless..
Gayane
I wander how many Armenians know about Daniel Varoujan—the prominent Armenian poet?
"like hundreds of his fellow Armenian intellectuals" When it comes to our fellow Armenians intellectuals who were murdered, not only killed, we must be exact.
Thanks to these scholars and others courageous human right defenders, my opinion on the turkish (and kurdish) people has strongly evolved. Beginning in the Nineties, with AyseNur and Ragip Zarakolu, Ali Ertem (Germany)...
"Apsos", my grand father, Aram, who deplored until 1987, the probable massacre of his brothers, officers in Ottoman army, has missed our current time... He is dead with sadness in his heart.
Garen,
I am very proud of my German heritage and it means the world to me, but it has absolutely zero to do with how I vote. I have voted for every ethnicity, I supported and voted for you.
I mean this respectfully, but I am SO baffled that anyone would vote based on ethnicity? How does that happen? I would never vote for a German because they are German? It is not even on my radar, in terms of evaluating my vote, as much as I love my heritage.
Would you always vote for the Armenian in a race regardless of whether they are the best person for the job? I have perused a lot of sites through links, and it seems to me that this community sees it as "us and them". That saddens me. It means that we have not evolved as much as I had hoped.
Best regards,
Heike
Great work Khachig,
These demonstrations in Turkey must be talked about and covered on a much more magnified level, especially in countries such as Britain, USA, Israel and Australia. These Turkish citizens need to be applauded for their bravery and decency. These were by far the most meaningful and powerful demonstrations at April 24.
You are just a big lier.Why nobody speak about the murderer Turks.Ok we also accept massacre Turks and Armenians. You are always blame us everytime blame us . Armenians saying that we've no any problems with Turks but when we try to connect with Armenians you are telling 'you are killer' . Tell me have you got a goood relations with neighbours.. Azerbaijan,Georgia,Turkey do you have good relations with those countries.. Just have good relations with Russia..Our history so good...We've no any problems with you and our history...
Hye, it should be noted... A Turkey, over the years, has many, many unsigned 'agreements' - awaiting to be 'agreed/signed'. It should be known, especially, by the US State Department, that Turkish policy is for all and any agreements to be 'agreed' to - but not signed - or still unsigned/'unagreed' - waiting to be signed. Consider, this amongst the first of the many PLOYS the Turks uses - into today - hence the Turks have come to believe they are clever... not signing what they have agreed to sign (or changing the rules of the 'agreements' after signing)... their 'mode'of diplomacy. Too, this action/inaction has caused the all efforts to end the cycle of Genocides (since the early 20th century) to be delayed, distracted, demeaned - unto today - 2010 in Darfur. Genocides still in Darfur as today t00, since Sudanese 'deny' committing their Genocide of Darufurians - ala a Turkey. With such Ottoman mentality still pursued, when shall the end of the cycle of ALL Genocides become a reality? Manooshag
Given what I read above about Azerbaijian, and what I understand about anti-Semitic prejudice in Turkey, it is beyond my understanding why Israel makes alliances with these people and pretends Jewish communities are so free in these countries.
I can't believe I am doing this...
Well, it’s a sticking point for me because I’ve heard and read the same things from Armenians all my life…and very little seems to have changed in the overall attitude. We now have an azad Hayastan…but, no one seems satisfied by that….
Karekin, thank you for responding to my question. I am trying very sincerely to get into your head space to understand where you are coming from. I don't know why or how you manage it, but through some mental gymnastics of your own I think you just don't feel the moral outrage that others feel about the barbarity in which our homelands, treasures, antiquities, ancestors, etc., were taken from us. More power to you for focusing on supporting RA. No one disagrees with this.
But how can you really expect much to change in the attitude of Armenians when not much substantive has yet changed in regard to the resolution of the Armenian question and Turkey? True, interesting and hopeful developments are occurring in some circles in Turkey today and time will tell if these amount to anything for Armenia. And true, we have a free Armenian Republic, though it struggles to survive between its unneighborly neighbors. But 95 years is a blip in the full scope of our history and not nearly long enough for the collective memory of our homeland or of the trauma that separated us from it to fade from Armenian consciousness. Your detachment from this consciousness is what puzzles me. I have my theories…
You fail to acknowledge that supporting RA and fighting for justice for the 1.5 million victims are not mutually exclusive. To me, it’s a question of balance. Both are important, co-exist and are interdependent. One effects the other.
I’ll say it one more time: try to reserve some of the empathy that you encourage others to have for the Turks for your fellow Armenians, recognizing the burden for their ancestors that they shoulder. We are all healing from a traumatic event in our own ways and at our own pace; and we need each others support, not criticism. Patience, Karekin, patience.
I don’t want to sound like a pessimist, but a few hundred Turks and Kurds commemorating the Armenian Genocide doesn't excite me. During the Genocide a few hundred Turks and Kurds helped save the lives of their Armenian neighbors. Nothing will change until it is officially recognized by the Turkish Government.
Interesting observation, Vramshapuh regarding reserving your optimism, but I am grateful as an Armenian to know that this event took place. It is very significant and I am in awe of those who took part in the April 24th commemoration in Istanbul.
Khatchig, little cross, you are an inspiration. It's nice to be reminded to go back and look at the writings of some of those who perished on April 24th, to get to know their thoughts, and to add our footsteps to the coming dawn. Thank you!
It is no secret that the military and some ruling segments of Turkey are Zionists. That is why both Israel and the US support & protect Turkey in spite of the fact that Turkey is a genocide perpetrator. Ask your selves this question, with the Turkish public being the most anti Semitic and anti American country on this planet, why would the US and especially Israel support Turkey? Since when does Israel support any country that is anti-Israel? The support is to protect the Turkish Zionist ruling elite that have entrenched themselves within the last few hundred years. They are protecting their own so to speak. There is an on going struggle in Turkey today between the Islamist government & the Zionist run "deep state" and every time the Islamist gain too much power the military feels threatened and implements a coup replacing the government. Make no mistake, it was the Turks with the help of the Kurds, that planned and executed the Armenian Genocide however the Zionists, including the ones running the German government during WW1, gave it their blessing for their own reasons: Envy, control, competition and mostly theft. That is why Israel and the US, as long as pro-Zionists control our foreign policy and the state department, will never recognize the Armenian Genocide.
There's no way to protect justice if we ignore the genocides of the past. To assure they don't repeat, to heel the wounds of History and to denounce the hate ideologies which keep producing the victims today, we have to face the past and establish the truth. Armenian Genocide has to be recognised by the whole world and ... the Turkish society.
Papken and Katia K.. we have missed you..;) Glad to see your comments...
Vramshapuh... I agree with you.. The small circle of supports and demonstrators with courageous hearts is a great step forward but this does not meant we need to stop fighting...We need to continue to walk with strong force...
Gayane
Gokhan... Not sure if I completely understood your comment..
I think what you said was Armenians don't have good relations with thy neighbors such as Azerbaijian, and Turkey correct???? Well.. reality check for you... Armenia's people were murdered and massacred my the Ottoman Turks in 1915.. Do you know about that??? Turkey to this day does not want to admit and apologize and pay back everything that is lost... BUT WE ARE STILL FIGHTING AND WILL FIGHT....Do you know about that??? Azerbajian went into war with ARmenia to steal yet another piece of land that belonged to us killing innocent young men and women, innocent people...BUT WE WON... Do you know about that???? To this day, Azerbajian is demanding Artsagh back and Turkey is supporting Azeris by demanding Armenia to do so or else no neighborly relations will take place.. Do you know about that???? I am assuming you are oblivious and ignorant about these matters; hence why you said what you said.. You expect Armenia to have good relations with liars, cheaters, deniers??? my answer however rude it may sound... you must be out of your confused mind...
You said we blame you for everything.. you mean Armenians blame Turks for everything??? Correction to your statement.... Armenians don't blame Turks for everything... Armenians demand acknowledgement, recognition, reperation, and repayment for the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians... Even though that is the bulk of the matter for your govt and country, it is not everything... We don't blame you for picking your govt officials, the way you eat, drink, sleep, sing, watch tv, walk to the store, the way you brush your teeth, the way you write... you get the point??? I don't think by pointing out the wrong and inhumane actions of your ancestors, the lies and denials of your current govt and the ignorance and blindness majority of Turkish citizens including yourself is blaming you for everything. is it???
If you think your history is good then that is a RED FLAG to me ... it is telling me that you are part of the Turkish govt education system where all you know is Turkey is good, your history is clean, Turkey never did anything horrible... Very sad to see but it is the reality.. Until we change your thought process about what truly happened between 1915-1923, you will remain that Turk who will never be free of the shackles of the Murderous past...
Hope you can do some real research and learn more about the history.. It will help you a great deal...
Gayane
Dear Sir Nicholas Serota, Director, and Mr. Gale, Curator, Tate Gallery of London:
The decision of the Tate Gallery to submit to pressures by the Turkish denialist lobby to disclaim and/or retract the word "Genocide" in materials connected with the Arshile Gorky exhibit is not only irresponsible, it is morally reprehensible. It contradicts the very purpose of museums and art galleries, which is to preserve, revere, and promulgate the historic truth that forms the basis -- indeed the essence -- of the works they display. Arshile Gorky was a survivor of the Ottoman-perpetrated genocide against the Armenian people, and its effects on his psyche became manifested in the melancholy, somber, and even tragic character of his work. Therefore your decision to drop any reference to the genocide dishonors the memory of this incredible artist whose very works you are exhibiting. Moreover, it shamelessly collaborates with ongoing Turkish efforts to erase the memory of the Armenian people, indeed to eradicate their history and culture, a 'fine deed' for people who purport to be custodians of the arts.
Nevdon Pasha
Response to my letter to the London Tate Gallery by Charlotte Ashworth, Information Officer at the Tate:
Dear (Nevdon)
Thank you for taking the time to record your comments regarding the insert included with the exhibition guide for Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective. I am very sorry to hear that the content upset you.
The statement does not deny the Armenian genocide, but clarifies the terms used in the wall texts. No offence is intended in stating the findings of either the British Government and the European Parliament.
I am very sorry once again if the statement caused you any upset, we treat your views very seriously and, in touching upon these very difficult issues, there was no intention to cause offence.
Yours sincerely
Charlotte Ashworth
NO DOUBT MOST HAVE A THING TO SAY AND I RESPECT EVERYBODY´S VIEWPOINTS.
1.NAREK IS THE CAUTIOUS PERSON HERE AND HAS STUDIED THE PAST RELATIONS-COMES TO MIND THE 1908 ..WHEN OUR POLITICAL PARTIES TRIED TO COUNTER-UNDERSTAND...SO TO SPEKA WITH THEIR "young turks" COUNTERPARTS ,RATHER AS THEY ADVOCATED,THE LATTER I.E. AS COMRADES IN ARMS.FAILED.THEN GAYANE AND KAREKIN AND JOHN ALSO COM MENT CORRECTLY,WELL ALL OTHERS ALSO HAVE A LITTLE SOMETHING UP THEIR SLEEVES.2.MY PERSONAL POIUNT OF VIEW IS PRESENT GOV. OF TURKEY WILL NOT FOLLOW THE PATH OF EX-SOVIET UNION AND ITS GLASTNOST OR PERSTROIKA..THEY WILL RATHER STICK TO THEIR 600 YEARS AND MORE OTTOMAN SYSTEM OF BY AND BY GIVING ROPE TO THE ARMENIANS AND KURDS..
IN THIS RESPECT ONE ABOVE,SORRY CAN´T REMEMBER NAME THAT HOW ARMENIANS ARE PROPOSING TO GOVERN THE 20-30 MILLION PEOPL IN WESTERN ARMENIA..HE ERRS-THOSE PEOPL ARE MOSTLY.... K U R D S AND TO BE JUST WE MUST ACCEPT THAT SEVRES TREAY GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO AN AUTONOMOUS KURDISTAN,SIGNED BY W.WILSON TOO.THENCE ALL WE SHOULD OPT FOR NOW IS WHAT KH.MOORADIAN-KUDOS TO HIM- AND OTHERS LIKE HIM AS FOILLOWERS OF H.DINK ARE ACHIEVING,HOPEFULLY THE MADDENED KEMALISTS AND SUCH WILL NOT HARM THEM.WE SHOULD-I CONTINUE- KH MOORADIAN AND CONFERENCE ATTENDEES IN ANKARA ASK FOR ....RESTITUTION-----BLOOD MONEY FIRST OF ALL THROUGHA WELL PREPARED CLAIM BY OUR INT´L ATTORNEYS AT THE HAGUE...MUCH MORE FEASIBLE..WHEN KURDISH ISSUE RIPENDS UP THEN AHVING COME TO TERMS WITH THEM OUTSIDE TURKEY THINK ABOUT THE PROPERTY-REAL- ANBD RICHES CONFIUSCATED ETC.,
PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH A -SO FAR- FACIST GOVERNMENT...IF THEY ARE CHANING , I IMAGINE IT IS PARTIUALLY ALSO DUE TO PRESSURES BROUGHT UPON THE,M -AS WE SSAW IN ZURICH BY THE TRIO SUPER POWERS...SO BEAR A BIT MORE...
HAMA HAIGAGANI SIRO,
.GP
I JUST DID
I am hundred percent with Raffi. Yes, as Hrant Dink said it, the change has already started. You should read the articles in Taraf , Zaman, and Radikal newspapers. They have millions of readers. By the way not only hundred or two hundred people are with us, You need to remember the funeral of Hrant Dink. Two hundred thousand people attended and the whole city was shut down. It is hard to accept some realities, but we need to see this big change from another angle. Change has to come from both sides. We need to change our old and primitive tactics. If we know that our nation had a genocide and every one of us affected, why we are begging them to accept this. I do not understand this at all.We know what happened. We need to move on to another step. We are too late. Thanks God Hrant did such a huge impact in our lives. We need to follow him. .
VAHN, THAT GOES TO SHOW THAT WE STILL HAVE ALONG WAY TO GO TO GRASP THAT POLITICS ARE A DIFFERENT GENRE OF INTELÑLECTUALISM.IN SHORT WE LACK THE CAPABILITY TO MAKE USE OF THE MASS MEDIA.INDEED SHE IS NOT A ....BUT A CELEBRITY LIKE ANY OTHER AND WHAT SHE ACHIEVED-THOUGH ON A DIFFERENT PEDESTAL OR PODIUM WAS TO A VAST NUMBER OF IGNORANT PEOPLE AS TO OUR CAUSE.PEOPLE WHO OTHERWISE WOULD NOT HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THESE ARMENIANS WANT WHAT THEY HAVE SUFFERED ETC., WHICH AGAIN GOES TO SHOW THAT WE NEED COOPERATION ON ALL LEVELS .I THINK I HAVE EXPRESSED QUITE CLEARLY...FOR THOSE WHO CAN FOLLOW THE TREND OF PRESENT DAY DIPLOMACY AND ITS INTRICACIES.AN EXAMPLE?
WHEN OUR POLITICAL PARTIES ADVOCATED,NAY TRUMPETED RE OUR CAUSE AFTER GENOCIDE AND HAVING GATHERED SOME -VERY LITTLE-CLOUT BY JUST THAT ADVOCACY ALL FELL ON DEAF EARS INCLUSIVE OF INT´L INSTANCES U.N ETCBUT WHEN THE "khent"ARMENIAN KIDS TOOK IT TO CENTRE STAGES IT WAS BLASTED OVER WORLD T.V.´S MEDIA YOU NAME .THOUGH IT IS IN NOWAY IN ACCORDANCE WITH LAW ABIDING AND CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE AND NOT REALLY A PLAUSIBLE WAY..NEVERTHELESS THE WORLD PUBLIC OPINION-UNFORTUNATELY AND IN EXTENSION DIPLOMACY AND AND OFFICIALDOME -IMMEDIATELY WERE ALERTED THAT THE ARMENIAN CAUSE STILL EXISTS AND IS NOT BURIED.NONETHELESS,THEY STOPPED IT WHEN THE NK ISSUE COMMENCED AND THEY JOINED WITH THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS ATNK.ALSO THEY NEVER TARGETED THE PUBLIC BUT ...YOU KNOW THE REWST.
BEST TO ALL
To: Boyajian & Karekin
Once again you have said what is required to Karekin...with love and compassion for our brother Karekin. He is not the enemy and we are not all insane! Insane people would not be in this forum.
And I believe, that even if we disagree, with each other, we still need to remain united and still love (yes, Karekin included) our brothers-and-sisters no matter what! Like the soldiers in the Artsakh war "they said (sitting on a tank) to an interviewer, when he asked why the boys were not elsewhere, but fighting the enemy...they said....for 3,000 years we have defended our lands...if we don't do it... now, who then will defend our lands?" Actually, Artsakh won simply because the people had a reason to fight-&-win. The Talish, Pakistani, Afghan, mercenaries had no reason to fight, but pehaps a few $ of pay, to fight an unknown enemy, to regain lands that didn't belong to them in the first place! So we, are fighting a moral-and- justice war; and we will win because we have reason to struggle to win! Baykar, baykar, minchev verch!
We also know that many many who call themselves Turks are also our brothers- and-sisters due to our ancestors being stolen to be Turkified!. DNA survey would be very intereesting! The Turks wanted to 'build-a-nation' no matter what it took! They went about it the wrong way, but that was done.
The hurt is so deep rooted that we feel "righteous indignation" 24/7. We don't hate the enemy and we do not resort to violence. We just want what is right and fair! We are to 'be angry, yet do not sin in our anger'...this is righteous indignation! No one says it is easy to 'love our enemy, feed them, offer them water, shelter etc.' as needed. This is a commandment to us yet it is hard to understand and live with. How does one be a doctor or nurse to a soldier who has just murdered their family? NOT EASY!
Let's continue with our dialogue with respect for each other!
G
Dear Khatchig Mouradian,
thank you, so much, for this article.
Many years ago I translated "The Song of Bread" of Varoujan in Italian, and it was part of my inspiration for my book "Skylark Farm".
I was particularly moved by the photo of the activist with Varoujan's picture!
Yours,
Antonia Arslan
Dear Ms. Arslan,
I read your book a few years ago. It's wonderful. Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to see the movie, which I believe won oscars in the Berlin Movie Festival. My grandparents were survivors of the Genocide and I've been a long time fan of Taniel Varoujan's poems. Khatchig Mouradian's words in this article did resonate in me. I find it beautiful that no matter how much pain we have endured as a nation, and how many different countries we've been scattered to, once again, we've risen as one, probably with more knowingness in our hearts, more confidence and hope.
Yours,
Lalig Arzoumanian
Nevdon.. I just read your e-mail and the response..
It seems this woman is using cookie cutter approach to this matter.. Every single e-mail that goes out to her, she responds the same way..
I am going to wait for my response... and see if she uses the same thing..
SHAME ON YOU CHARLOTTE and LONDON"S TATE GALLERY...
Armenian Weekly.. please do us a favor and send all of our responses to the gallery and make sure they read every single one..
I can't express how disgusted am I with them right now.. It is embarrassing and shameful.. SHAME ON LONDON"S TATE GALLERY...
Gayane
Dear Antonia,
I too was moved by the picture.. Just by looking at the person holding the picture, you can feel his pain, his sadness.. As if he is bleeding inside and carries the silent cry of his heart in his eyes..simply grieving for Varoujan and the rest who perished During the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians.. I want to thank him from the bottom of my heart and everyone else who participated in this event...
Gayane
The unsavory thing is that Obama backtracks on a promise. In this he does the same thing as a number of US earlier administrations: promising to ask Turkey to recognise the genocide and then backpedalling in the name of US interests. To brazenly subordinate a moral issue to national interests is not only despicable, it is dangerous because it strengthens a all too familiar tendency to regard raisons d'etat as being above etnics.
On the other hand I welcome the name "Medz Yeghern" as a signal that the crimes of the Young Turks and the resulting Armenian catastrophy of 1915 must not necessarily exclusively be expressed as a moral concern by the expression ”genocide”.
This is not primarily because I believe that the actual documentation for the thesis of the applicability of the term genocide - in the strict juridical sense - to the events of 1915-16 is open to doubt, but because a number of factors today tends to make the campaign for genocide recognition an inadequate strategy, or at worst a kind of blind alley.
Factor one: Ten years ago the attitude in most countries was that the Turks lied about the events and that failure on the part of the parliaments of the world to ask Turkey to recognise the genocide was a clear moral failure. Today other voices are heard that cannot easily be brushed off as denialism or support of denialism. Many insist that parliaments cannot legislate on historical truths. Historical truths are established by concensus aming historians.
Factor two: Ten years ago it was almost universally believed in the enlightened public that relevant historians adhered to the genocide thesis regarding 1915 in the same way as they adhere to the genocide thesis regarding the Holocaust: only the bad or the mad deny or doubt. Today there is a much more pervasive feeling that we do not know all about the facts. There is much more recognition of the fact that a not negligible number of historians - who cannot be brushed off as cranks - doubt or deny.
Factor three: In the light of the preceding points the natural answer for those who uphold the genocide thesis would be to rely more on scholarly argumentation. But he tendency to dismiss those who disagree as cranks or worse, and to refuse to argue with them, continues. The weakness of this strategy is apparent, most conspicuously when the Turks played the Habermassian card: Let the the most knowledgable of us sit down together and discuss the matter, and let the best argument win! We will bow to the consequences! Both the US administration, The UN and the EU applauded this. But he other side chose to see the invitation to dialogue onesidedly as an insistence that they must question their own convictions rather than as an opportunity to win by the best arguments! Understandable in view of the Armenain wounds, questionable as strategy.
The Germans passed a resolution in 2005 which unequivocally asked the Turks to go into the dark spots of their history regarding the fate of the Ottoman Armenians. The guilt of the Young Turks is also clearly stated. But he word genocide was not used. But will ANCA and other campaigners regard this as a victory or a defeat for the Armenian cause?
Yes, this conference is evidence of many things, one of which being that things are slowly changing in Turkey. While talking about the genocide was previously done behind closed doors, it is now possible to do so in an approved academic setting or a newspaper. Of course, it is not perfect, but it is moving in the right direction. Changing the mindset of millions of people takes time and effort. In the US, millions thought it was wrong for blacks to sit at the front of a bus or that is was perfectly ok for them to not have the vote until 1964, and there are still plenty of racists around, but now the govt is on the side of right, not wrong. That is what is needed in Turkey, and eventually, it will happen. It should be remembered that the 'racism' that developed in Turkey came largely from the influx of a group of people after the Spanish Inquisition, and those same people worked very hard to dislodge Armenians over the next 400 years, and that this, above all, led to the genocide.
Ani, I think you hit it right on the spot. Hrant's funural showed as to how many people really want that change to come within and for their country.
Vramshapuh, Gayane, these people actually risked their freedom by going out on teh streets and holding posters and banners that commemorates the Armenian Genocide. I mean MUCH braver that the thousands of Diasporans who demonstrate in free democratic countries - where they know that they will not be jailed or tortured or isolated by their immediate surrounding. Let's give credit when its due... and by the way, no one said we should stop our fight, but come on, let's capitalize on this action and promote it and tell people that SEE< EVENT THE TURKISH PEOPLE KNOW THIS ASA FACT AND ARE COMMEMORATING IT... play it up!
Hye, thank you Kim Kardashian. I welcome your 'voice' to bring out further world awareness of so many who have not knowledge of the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation. As so many of us know, that most of the American medias, here in USA; even the world, omit full impact of the denials by Turks of the Ottoman Turkish mentality and the continued Turk leaderships ongoing denials over years since the early 20th century is not fully known. It is for the world to know, to recognize, sadly, had the Turks been made to face their guilt, paid their reparations to the Armenians, that the cycle of Genocides shall have ended. None of the Genocides that followed shall have been perpetrated by the despots - none of the millions since shall have been slaughtered, raped, kidnapped, placed in their churches which were set afire, victims soles of their feet were beaten until bloody - then to burst - ala Turkish 'mode'. indescribable cruelties... Survivors shall have not have their lives destroyed, horrendous memories to remain with them all the days of their lives. If the Turks had been brought to justice.... then surely, all the Genocides that followed the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation shall not been! Too, it should be recognized that the Sudanese today, too, are denying their Sudanese Genocide of the Darfurians - following the example of the Turkish policy of denials - sadly, Genocides continue... Hence, until the Turks are brought to justice, their guilt recognized for the destruction of an advanced peoples' nation who had much to offer to humanity, as opposed to the example of Genocides to be the route for despots with convoluted goals to 'steal' nations, to steal 'cultures'...
The world's civilized nations, together, should end Genocides. The world's civilized nations, together, shall 'attack' any Genocide perpetrators - whether that perpetrator is a foe or an 'ally' - only then. together, shall cycle of the Genocides end on our planet. Again, thanks Kim, furthering/voicing the issue of the Genocides and our need for nations to join to prevent it continuance anywhere, anytime, by anyone. Too, the ancient and advanced nation of the Armenians shall have been amongst the nations today who shall have offered advances to mankind, as the nation of Armenia, even today aspires to - rather than the mentality of destroying nations/peoples as the Turks - still in their Ottoman mentality, attack/take what they deem they deserve...Manooshag
There is much debate regarding whether Armenia should receive its lands back, but I have never heard the question placed in the context of restoring Asia Minor (or Anatolia) to its historically indigenous peoples (Armenians, Kurds, Alevis, Yazidis, Pontic Greeks, Syrians, etc.) The implied cooperative struggle of these combined peoples is quite intriguing to me and feels like an organic imperative. People often criticize Armenians for not letting go of something that happened "so long ago," but placed in the context of the full scope of the history of the region, 95 years is just a mere moment ago. I just wonder, when average Turks look at the destruction of the natural order that took place in Asia Minor a century ago, do some swell with pride knowing their forefathers accomplished what 14,000 years of invaders, marauders and conquerors could not? I know some Turks have begun to shudder with the barbaric enormity of what was done, and we Armenians are grateful for these brave people.
Another courageous Turk. We are growing in numbers and things will change my Armenian friends.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-209026-109-centerdo-we-have-to-defend-the-actions-of-the-committee-of-union-and-progress-bribyibr-umit-kardascenter.html
""‘racism’ that developed in Turkey came largely from the influx of a group of people after the Spanish Inquisition, and those same people worked very hard to dislodge Armenians over the next 400 years, and that this, above all, led to the genocide. "
Yes, the fact armed Armenian revolts were splitting the country apart and the very existence of the Ottoamn state and country was at stake and Eastern provinces were falling one by one has nothing to do with tehcir! Let us blame the Jews!
Talk about denial and revisionism!
Ahmet, don't call us 'friends.' You can't consider anyone a friend when you knowingly insult his or her religious beliefs and feelings. I suppose you're the one who insulted Holy Trinity in the past, are you? Stop this typically Turkish duplicity, please...
A note to clarify my first comment, if I may:
I've mentioned: "The dawn, when justice will prevail," referring to the "rose-flooded dawn," that Daniel Varoujan heard the footsteps of...
We (the descendants, over generations) are still fighting to get there one day; yet this, in my opinion, is still a victory.
Quite honestly it disturbs me to hear all this veiled hints about "Turks" not being the problem, but "other people" who came after the Inquisition. I don't buy it. Unless maybe you would like to elaborate instead of dropping hints. How can a small group of foreign people control every person who sought to butcher all the villages of our people? The military battalions of young men slaughtered? Why try so hard to avoid putting the responsibility for this where it belongs?
And where does this idea that it wasn't okay for black to vote until 1964 come from? You must not be American.
Amendment XV to the U.S. Constitution -
Passed by Congress February 26, 1869. Ratified February 3, 1870.
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."
PS All of my family of my grandparents generation survived the genocide and were born in Turkey. All of the grandparents of people I knew in my whole community did the same. I NEVER HEARD ONE WORD OF THIS FOREIGN CONSPIRACY from their lips!! NOT ONE SINGLE WORD. EVER. They knew perfectly well who was responsible. And I had relatives - close family members - on ALL sides of Armenian politics.
john, if that is true then why is Erdogan making all these public statements such as about genocide in Gaza?
I don't believe it. I think people say these things to throw off responsibility where it belongs. I need better proof than conspiracy theories like this.
Boyajian - amen!
and for this:
placed in the context of the full scope of the history of the region, 95 years is just a mere moment ago
True words!
Gulisor Akkum -
The people in my family come from all sides of Armenian politics. 95 years ago, one of my great grandfathers was a local leader (in Kharpert) of a party called Hunchag. (Honestly, I do not know a lot about Hunchag party, just some things my grandmother told me. Maybe others here can fill me in better.) I know that he wanted a better, progressive Turkey for everyone. He was in prison for a long time, being tortured. When the massacres started, he was tortured to death in front of his wife and children. My grandmother was his oldest child. For him, I hope I can reach across time to you and others like you in his name. Consider that I shake your hand.
I personally know one or two of the people sitting on those steps. I do not agree with some of their positions and statements but will defend their right to opine as they wish.
What are my chances you think of surviving a similar gesture, holding the pictures of bodies of my mutilated and murdered ancestors in places like Bitlis and Van and Mus, in some public venue say in Erivan? How far you think I would go carrying a plackard denying the so-called genocide in Armenia, or France or Switzerland? Such freedom loving people... really?
Ahmet, thank you so very much for sharing that with us. I will share it with my friends.
I pray for the safety of all of you. Elsewhere I posted the short story of one of my great-grandfathers. He was a local leader of a party that wanted a better Turkey for everyone, with a bill of rights for all minorities. He was tortured to death. I hope for the safety of those like him today.
Yes, Karekin, little distortions of yours that you think may change the real picture. Familiar tactics. Little effect.
However positive impact the conference may have, Armenians will not cease their efforts at the international recognition of the genocide. Most of us believe that it is precisely these efforts that generate change in Turkey and not that the Turks are becoming more evolutionary mature and civilized. Bear in mind also that such conferences may be intended to soften and eventually hamper the waves of recognitions. We’ve waited for 95 long years and no arguments of yours in that ‘changing the mindset of millions of people takes time and effort’ will deviate us from the course. Whatever analogy, relevant or irrelevant, you may make with regard to the US, in the US we’re dealing with the descendants of mostly European civilized nations, not Central Asian nomads, and that’s one of the reasons that Americans could base the problem of fighting racism on their evolutional maturity. And it should be remembered that the racism that exists in Turkey came largely from their origins, their ethnogenesis, so to speak. They came to Asia Minor as nomadic invaders, inflicted destruction and pain on many ancient indigenous civilizations inhabiting the area, then formed their prison of nations, the Ottoman Empire, and continued to mistreat those ancient civilizations. As a result they effectively wiped out the Assyrian, Greek, Hittites, and Armenian civilizations, among many other minor ones. And then the great falsificator Mustafa Kemal cleansed the remnants of those civilizations, declared all those who live in ‘modern’ Turkey Turks, and all historical, cultural, and architectural artifacts from other civilizations as Turkish, and handed a ‘new republic’ to the Turks, who’ve been brainwashed for decades until now in that they own their lands. Turkophilic, whitewashing distortions in that ‘some people worked very hard to dislodge Armenians over the next 400 years, that led to the genocide’ are futile. It’s been a consistent Turlish policies at Turkofication for 600 years of the Ottomans, and the genocide was perpetrated by the hands of the Turks. End of story.
Whoever might have been behind their heinous crime, we know, and it seems you know, too. But the invaders, repressors, and ultimately genocide perpetrators were Turks with the help of their Muslim Kurds. End of story.
I sent a letter to Tate with cc: to Greg Stanton. I never received a response from Tate. Below are my letter and a short note from Greg:
--- Dear Sir Nicholas Serota and Mr Gale,
I have learnt with profound sadness that Tate Gallery’s webpage on Arshile Gorky’s exhibit contains an outrageous disclaimer about the use of the term ‘genocide.’
As a historian specializing in the actions of the British government during its presence in Transcaucasus in early 20th century, I consider it undignified for Tate to succumb to the pressure of Armenian genocide deniers whereas British own archives and libraries, such as the British Library, British Foreign Office Records, House of Lords Record Office, and National Archives of the United Kingdom, as well as hundreds of relevant personal archives and papers, such as Oliver Wardrop Papers and Wardrop Collection at the Bodleian Library, Oxford, attest unequivocally that the treatment of Christian Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915 was race extermination and massacres en masse.
Great Britain’s own House of Lords in 1915, using evidence from a report submitted by Lord Bryce and Arnold Toynbee, accused the Ottoman Empire of “systematically exterminating a whole race out of their domain.” Remarks by British Foreign Secretaries Arthur Balfour and Lord Curzon, and Prime Ministers David Lloyd George and Winston Churchill have been documented as to acknowledge and criticize the genocidal practices of the Turks. Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin has coined the term genocide on the basis of the Turkish annihilation of the Armenians in 1915-1921.
It is deplorable for the Tate Gallery to submit to the pressure by Turkish lobbying groups to post the disclaimer considering the fact that some 28 countries of the world, the European Parliament, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, 44 state legislatures in the United States of America, as well as scores of human rights organizations, advocacy groups, individual historians, genocide scholars, and international lawyers have accepted the fact that mass extermination of the Armenians constituted genocide, in fact, the first genocide of the 20th century.
I request that the disclaimer be removed from the exhibit or its language changed to more appropriately reflect on the term genocide in connection to the Turkish atrocity.
Respectfully,
Timothy Martin ---
---Dear Tim,
Thank you for sending your letter. The more the better. Best wishes,
Greg---
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-209026-109-centerdo-we-have-to-defend-the-actions-of-the-committee-of-union-and-progress-bribyibr-umit-kardascenter.html
To say that I don't have empathy or deep feelings regarding the losses of the genocide would be just crazy. However, as the saying goes, you can drag a horse to water but you can't make him drink. We can only change ourselves and, we have to live today, not yesterday and certainly not use our energies to mourn the loss that came 1000+ years ago. If that were the case, then Armenians would be the most endlessly depressed people on earth....they were incessantly invaded, occupied and conquered...by more than just the Seljuks and the Ottomans....try all the others...the Persians, the Greeks, the Mongols, the Russians...where does it end? Are you planning to get justice from all of them too? The point is that it's an endless effort....the Buddhists call it the 'hungry ghost'...that can never be satisfied. No one - and certainly not me - is saying to abandon genocide recognition efforts....but to ask people today to be in mourning for historic losses that go back almost 3000 years is a bit tough to swallow, especially when there are living people suffering every day in Armenia right now! Actively do something to help them! They need our help, your help more than anyone from the past who can never be recovered. Yes, have your memories and remembrances, but don't forget there is an Armenia today that needs your help in a big way. That should be your focus...more than anything.
Murat, there is no law forbidding you to do just that in Armenia... as opposed to 301 - the law that killed and imprisoned many Turkish citizens.
Paul, above was my first post. There must be another Ahmet (very common Turkish name) here so apologies for the confusion. If I post again it will be Ahmet Eroğlu, my full name.
I support recognition of the Armenian genocide but I do not want Armenians to revenge or any more violence but Turkey to learn the truth so we can all move on and somehow reconcile. Turkey must accept and I think they eventually will.
Well, it is not a distortion to tell you that there are 30 Armenian churches in Istanbul, most of which are open for visitors every day of the week and are unlocked...you just walk in the door. I know...been there, done that, as well as the patriarchate, where women still sit on one side, men on the other. Once again, been there, done that.
Countries who Recognized The Armenian Genocide
1.Uruguay (A Parl. Res. was adopted in 1965, followed by a Law adopted in 2004)
2.Cyprus (A Parliamentary Resolution was adopted in 1982)
3.European Union (Parl. Res. adopted in 1987, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2005)
4.Argentina (A Senate Resolution was adopted in 1993, followed by a Law adopted in 2004)
5.Russia (A State Duma Resolution was adopted in 1995)
6.Canada (Resolutions were adopted in 1996, 2002 and 2004)
7.Greece (A Parliamentary Resolution was adopted in 1996)
8.Lebanon (Resolutions were adopted in 1997 and 2000)
9.Belgium (A Senate Resolution was adopted in 1998)
10.France (Parl. Res. were adopted in 1998 & 2000, followed by the Law in 2001)
11.Sweden (A Parliamentary report of 2000)
12.Vatican (In 2000)
13.Italy (A Resolution adopted in 2000)
14.Switzerland (A Resolution adopted in 2003)
15.Slovakia (A Resolution adopted in 2004)
16.The Netherlands (A Resolution adopted in 2004)
17.Poland (A Resolution adopted in 2004)
18.Venezuela (A Resolution adopted in 2005)
19.Germany (A Resolution adopted in 2005)
20.Lithuania (A Resolution adopted in 2005)
21.Chile (A Resolution adopted in 2007)
To: Karekin
Thank you for your reminding all re the current situation in the RA. I have an uncle (my father's youngest, now 82 y/o?) who has been to the RA 3 times now. He tells my mom how wonderful things are in Armenia. But does he actually go to the poverty stricken areas? e.g. Gyumri? and other places? I doubt it.
Most of us can't relocate to the RA due our age and circumstances. And to the wide corruption in the place. I am not sure exactly how we can help....that is if we have the means to help?
You may have some comments to my questions? Thank you.
G
Raffi jan.. You completly misunderstood my intentions when I stated that jst because we have selected groups of courageous people demonstrated in Turkey, it does not mean we have to relax.....
My thought behind what I wrote (I am sure it goes to Vramshapuh as well) is of course not to push aside these courageous acts.. I personally bow to their feet with great admiration and gratitude.. I praise their firm stand on justice and truth.. I never said dismiss their actions and do not give credits..They deserve all the credits... That was not my point.. The point I was trying to make is simply this: just because we see movements, it does not mean we need to stop our fight... We acknowledge and encourage events such as these in Turkey and around the world; however our mission is not yet completed... Hope that I was able to explain myself better to show that my intent was nothing but "lets never stop and give up fighting".....
Murat, why are you continuing digging a hole with your unintelligent comments...did we have not have enough of that??? Till now, you still misspell the capital of Armenian.. IT IS EREVAN or YEREVAN NOTTTTTTTTTT Erivan...It is not Turkish.. It is Armenian.. Get it right...
Gayane
Karekin, it will help living Turks and living Armenians to have the truth recognized. You minimize the drive that powers the passion for truth. The empathy that I suggested you lack was for your fellow living Armenians who are filled with this passion and who struggle for the truth today.
You also treat the events of a century ago as past tense while others experience it as ongoing and refuse to passively accept the continued assault from the Turkish State's denial of the truth. This is a matter of perspective and you have every right to yours.
There is much you write that I agree with and I would gladly stand with you in support of Armenians in Armenia. But I can't swallow your condescension in preaching futility to fellow Armenians with whom you disagree. You mock fellow Armenians when you refer to the various invaders and conquerors throughout our history and ask if we would demand justice from them as well. The situations are not comparable. The struggle with Turkey today is not an effort to get even because of years of subjugation, but a righteous refusal to allow a nation to attempt to exterminate a people and than benefit from the action. Should genocides go unrecognized and unpunished? Of course not! It only makes it easier for it to happen again and again, as we have seen.
There is a need for those among us who work to promote the welfare of the Republic of Armenia, but there is also a need for those who carry on the struggle for justice, on behalf of all mankind. As I said previously, these efforts are not mutually exclusive.
You can't lump all those who fight for justice together as angry and hateful Armenians. This is a false characterization of good people who base their struggle on a universal sense of morality and respect for human dignity.
Yes it's true, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it is also true that beating a dead horse won't make him get up and go. Now can we both agree to ride out on the horses we came in on?
Hello Timothy,
Thank you for sharing..
I alse sent an e-mail to charlotte.. i am still waiting... My letter was with a bit of anger.. if you did not get a response, I bet she will never respond to me...
I will also forward my e-mail to Mr. Stanton.
Thank you
Gayane
Paul jan... Ayo.. Ahmet said many things that pissed alot of us..
Now, Ahmet Eroglu, as he stated in his last post may or may not be the same one.. However, because I respect and believe human beings to be true and honest (most of the time), I say Ahmet E. could be the friend and not the foe here..
Ahmet .. please post your comments under Ahmet E. so that we don't confuse you with the OTHER Ahmet...
Thank you for the article... I will also share it with my people...
Gayane
Karekin and Murat, Ahmet, Robert (and your other Turkish brothers whose goal is to mix the pot with tainted information, blaming others for what happened, ect)
Please read the book "The Invention of History".... Azerbajian, Armenia and the Showcasing of Imagination..... here is a bit of background what this book consists of (including pictures of the Armenian monuments and churches before and now including maps, ect)
In the middle ages (Caucasian) Albani was situated north of the Arax River, near Armenia and Iberia. During the 11th-12th centuries this Christian country disappeared from the maps and after the Arab invasion and the onslaught of the Mongols and Seljuks, various Khanates such as Shirwan, Ganja, Karabagh, talesh and others appeared in the territory, ruled mainly by the Persians. in 1918, when the regional countries became independent, there appeared a new country named Azerbaijan, which was the same, as the name of the Persian province of Azerbaijian across the Arax River.
Since the early 1960s various local historians and scientists of this newly founded country have been trying to prove that the population of this land are the direct descendants of the Christians Albanians, as well as those of the Mongols and Seljuks, which allows them to claim that mulititude of the Christian monuments and churches exisiting int he regions have Albanian, and not Christian Armenian origins.
This book tries to expose the truth behind these claims and related allegations (as we all know Azerbaijian claims Karabagh (Artsagh) belongs to them, and that Armenians snatched the land from them..Turkey with strong support stands behind Azerbaijan in regards to these claims) and prove the reverse. The Azerbaijani authorities claim to be the rightful owners of all Christian monuments in the South Caucasus but yet have been destroying most of the same medieval monuments in the area.. Very odd don't you think? Just like Turkey... Destroying the very monuments and churches as if they are trying to wipe out everything left behind by the Armenians was their main goal.... One can conclude that our history has been, and is being wiped out ..and no Azerbaijani or Turk can say they own these monuments ..but only their true owners-Armenians.....
Karekin, You claim many churches and monuments are open and accept visitors. 30 to be exact right??? Well 30 out of thousands.THOUSANDS is just down right sad.... The fact remains that most of the artifacts, churches, and monuments have been destroyed... I am glad you had a chance to visit these places (30 to be exact) but you forget that Turkey knows how to play the game in the right way.. They know how to get you fooled...They dangle the carrot in front of the world by things like allowing few churches to be restored to show their good will...Please.. spare me the wooo hooooo...
Karekin.. you are hopeless..
I don't know if you are not reading what we are saying here or you are simply ignoring what is being said but you toot your own horn over and over.. with the same beat... same tactics and same feeling toward your fellow Armenians..
Gary says we need to love and respect each other including you because we are Armenians... I agree with him and will continue to do so... but you are making it really hard..
Gayane
Dear Editorial Board:
So how about it? Are we through playing this stupid game of facist censorship once and for all, or are we to continue your childish and most cowardly behavior? I don't want to waste my time writing a great piece only to have some racist bigot on your staff become so terrified that something which I may have written may make hard line dashnaks think that manybe there really is more than just one story to all of this! So, are you all finally going to grow up and act professionally for once, or are we destined to play this "game" ad nauseum? It's your call!!
To Arzoumanian with thanks,
Please add to your list:
All Arabs specially old generation they know all stories of genocide and many of their grand grandmothers are Armenians, mostly changed their names to Marriam which means Maria because they were christian respecting their identity as they could not pronounce their difficult name like Seranoosh ,Vartanoosh...etc
I know a Syrian physician, his grandmother and his wife's grand mother are both Armenians.
Iranians have published many books on Genocide.
Latest Statistics: 44 out of 50 states in USA recognized the Armenian Genocide, only 6 states left.
Also the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments not English MPs yet!
An English editor adviced me that word 'Genocide' should be written with a capital letter.
Dear Dr. Kevorkian: My name is Kathy Dorian and I am the grandaughter of Ankine Kevorkian. She lived in Armenia and attended an America school in Turkey way back then. She was later adoped by a wonderful American family, but she remembers at the station waving goodbye to her family, mom holding a little baby boy. She was about 15 yearsof age (not sure). I know your bio says you were born here in the states, but is there any chance that the two of you are related. She has sinced passed away, but I have one Dad still alive and one Aunt and if so they would love to get to know you. My dad will turn 80 this summer and my aunt will turn 82 and is a little frail. We are a wonderful Armenia family and hope there isa relationship somewhere between you and my grandmother. Thank you for your time and please try and stay healthy even if you are not related. Take careKathy
Do we have to defend the actions of the Committee of Union and Progress?
by: Ümit Kardas*
Today's Zaman
May 02, 2010
The term "genocide," defined as the "crime of crimes" in the International
Criminal Court's (ICC) Rwanda decision, was first coined by Raphael Lemkin,
a Jewish lawyer from Poland.
He was particularly known for his efforts to draft the United Nations
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which
cast genocide as an international crime in 1948.
Dealing with the case of Talat Pasa being murdered by an Armenian youth in
Berlin in 1921, Lemkin started to compile a file about what happened in the
Ottoman Empire in connection with the case. As he discussed the case with
his professor, he learned that there was no international law provision that
would entail the prosecution of Talat Pasa for his actions, and he was
profoundly shocked when his professor likened the case of Talat Pasa to a
farmer who would not be held responsible for killing the chickens in his
poultry house.
In 1933, Lemkin used the term "crime against international law" as a
precursor of the concept of genocide during the League of Nations conference
on international criminal law in Madrid. After Nazi-led German forces
devastated Europe and invaded Poland in 1939, Lemkin was enlisted in the
army, but upon the defeat of Polish forces, he fled to the US, leaving his
parents behind. Later, while working as an adviser during the Nuremberg
trials, he would learn that his parents had died in the Nazi concentration
camps.
In his book "Axis Rule in Occupied Europe," published in 1944, he defined
genocide as atrocities and massacre intended to destroy a nation or an
ethnic group. Coining the term from the Greek genos, meaning race or
ancestry, and the Latin cide, meaning killing, Lemkin argued that genocide
does not have to mean direct destruction of a nation. In 1946, the UN
General Assembly issued a declaration on genocide and unanimously accepted
that genocide is a crime under international law, noting that it eliminates
the right of existence of a specific group and shocks the collective
conscience of humanity. However, Lemkin wished that in addition, a
convention should be drafted on preventing and punishing the crime of
genocide. This wish was fulfilled with the signature of the UN Convention on
the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in 1948. Lemkin died
in a hotel room in New York in a state of poverty at the age of 59 in 1959.
Although they left this idealist defender of humanity alone, people were
gentle enough to write, "The Father of the Genocide Convention," as an
epitaph on his grave.
1843-1908 period
In 1843, Bedirhan Bey, who commanded the Kurds who were assigned with the
duty of massacring the people of Asita (Hosud), connected to the sanjak of
Hakkari, where the population was predominantly Armenian and Nestorian,
persuaded the Armenians and Nestorians who had fled to the mountains to
return and hand in their weapons, and then, the people who were massacred
were largely thrown in the Zap River. The majority of their women and
children were sold as slaves. It is reported that at least 10,000 Armenians
and Nestorians were killed in this massacre. In 1877, the Ottoman Army and
the Russian Army started to fight again, and availing of this opportunity,
Armenia once again became a battlefield, and the soldiers shouted, "Kill the
disbelievers." Circassians and Kurds slaughtered 165 Christian families,
including women and children, in Beyazit. In 1892, Sultan Abdülhamit II
summoned the Kurdish tribal chiefs to Istanbul and gave them military
uniforms and weapons, thereby establishing the Hamidiye cavalry regiment
with some 22,500 members. In this way, Abdülhamit II played with the foreign
policy equilibrium between the UK and Russia and organized a specific
ethnic/religious group against another ethnic/religious group based on a
Muslim vs. non-Muslim dichotomy. The Ottoman administration appointed the
worst enemies of Armenians as their watchdogs, thereby creating a force that
could crush them even in peacetime. The persecution of Armenians peaked in
the Sason massacre in September 1894. Abdülhamit II declared resisting
Armenians rebels and ordered that they should be eradicated.
1908-1914 period
Europe and America extensively supported the Young Turks, who were seeking
legitimacy. When the Movement Army threatened to launch a campaign against
Istanbul, Abdülhamit II declared a constitutional monarchy on July 24, 1908.
Without using any discretion, ordinary people were both amazed and pleased.
Moved by slogans calling for equality, freedom and brotherhood, Armenians,
too, welcomed with joy the government backed and controlled by the Committee
of Union and Progress (CUP).
Britain and France made loans available to the new regime and sent
consultants for the treasury and the navy in support. To alleviate the
consequences of the massacres of 1895 and 1896, European countries increased
their humanitarian assistance. Orphaned children of Christian families were
placed in care centers, and schools were opened in eastern Anatolia. The
introduction of the second constitutional monarchy was seen as an assurance
of the creation of equality among all races and religions. However, on April
14, 1909, a new wave of slaughter started against Christians in Adana. The
CUP's close alliance with the Armenian Dashnak Party was a major reason for
the rekindling of these massacres. For the first time, these attacks did not
discriminate between Armenians and eastern Christians. Thus, Orthodox
Syriacs, Catholic Syriacs and Chaldeans were also killed. Apparently,
Armenians had stood apart with their penchant for trade, banking, brokerage
as well as for pharmacy, medicine and consulting and other professions; they
constituted a wealthy portion of the population. As a result, this and their
identity as non-Muslims made Armenians a clear target. As a commercial and
agricultural factor, Armenians also served as an obstacle to the
Germanification of Anatolia.
After the Adana massacre of 1909, there was a period of good faith that
lasted until 1913. Meanwhile, the CUP improved its ties with the militant
Dashnak Party. After transforming into a democratic party, this party was
represented with three deputies in the Assembly of Deputies (Meclis-i
Mebusan) that was renewed in 1912. This assembly also had six independent
Armenians members. In 1876, the Assembly of Deputies had 67 Muslim and 48
non-Muslim deputies. However, in January 1913, following the defeat in the
first Balkan War, the CUP overthrew the government (known as the Raid of
Bab-i Ali) and started to implement a policy to homogenize the population
through a planned ethnic cleansing and destruction and forced relocation.
Talat Pasa prepared plans for homogenizing the population by relocating
ethnic groups to places other than their homeland. According to the plan,
Kurds, Armenians and Arabs would be forced to migrate from their homeland,
and Bosnians, Circassians and other Muslim immigrants would be settled in
their places. The displaced ethnic groups would not be allowed to comprise
more than 10 percent of the population in their destinations. Moreover,
these groups would be quickly assimilated. The Greeks had already been
relocated from the western coasts of the country in 1914.
In addition to the regular army, Enver Pasa believed that there must be
special forces that would conduct undercover operations. Thus, he
transformed the Special Organization (Teskilat-i Mahsusa), which he had
established as a secret organization before the Balkan War, into an official
organization. This organization had intelligence officers, spies, saboteurs
and contract killers among its members. It also had a militia comprised of
Kurdish tribes. Former criminals worked as volunteers for this organization.
Talat Pasa created the main body of the Teskilat-i Mahsusa from gangs of
former criminals whom he arranged to be released from prisons. In Anatolia,
the Teskilat-i Mahsusa worked at the disposal of the 3rd Army.
Forced relocations of 1915-1916
The German-backed pan-Islamist policy implied a fatal solution for
non-Muslims living within the borders of the empire. The conditions for the
forced relocation campaign launched in 1915 were different from previous
ones. The two-month campaign covered not only Armenians but also all
Christians in eastern Anatolia. These relocations could not be considered a
resettlement because the specified destinations were not inhabitable and
only very few could make it there. Many people were immediately killed
either inside or outside the settlements where they were born or living, and
others were murdered on the roads on which they were forced to walk on foot.
Most of those who were immediately killed were men. Women and children
formed the largest portion of the groups banished toward the southern
deserts. There were continual attacks on these processions, accompanied by
rapes of women and kidnappings of children. Provincial officials did not
take any measures to provide the convoys with food, water and shelter.
Rather, high-level officials and local politicians mobilized death squads
against them. These squads would confiscate the goods of the relocated
people, sending some of them to the Interior Ministry and embezzling the
rest.
Eventually, the forced relocation campaign turned into a series of
atrocities which even bothered the Germans. The ongoing campaign was never a
population exchange. As noted by British social historian David Gaunt, the
purpose of these forced relocation campaigns was to remove a specific
population from a specific location. Because it was intended to be performed
quickly, this added to the intimidation, violence and cruelty involved. As
resettlement was not intended, neither the administration nor the army cared
about where the deported population was going or whether they would survive
physically. The high degree of the culture and civilization exhibited by
Armenians made the atrocities against them all the worse in the eyes of the
world. Talat Pasa mistakenly made his last conclusion: "There is no longer
an Armenian problem."
Conclusion and suggestions
The foregoing account cannot duly express what really happened in its scope,
dimension and weight. These atrocities and massacres were not only regularly
reported on in European and US newspapers, but were also evidenced in the
official documents of Britain and the US and even Germany and Austria, which
were allies of the Ottoman Empire, and in the minutes of the Ottoman Court
Martial (Divan-i Harbi), the descriptions of diplomats and missionaries, in
commission reports and in the memoirs of those who survived them.
No justification, even the fact that some Armenian groups revolted with
certain claims and collaborated with foreign countries, can be offered for
this human tragedy. It is misleading to discuss what happened with reference
to genocide, which is merely a legal and technical term. No technical term
is vast enough to contain these incidents, which are therefore
indescribable. Atrocities and massacres are incompatible with human values.
It is more degrading to be regarded as a criminal in the collective
conscience of humanity than to be tried on charges of genocide.
A regime that hinges upon concealing and denying the truth will make the
state and the society sick and decadent. The politicians, academics,
journalists, historians and clerical officials in Turkey should try to
ensure that the society can face the truth. To face the truth is to become
free. We can derive no honor or dignity from defending our ancestors who
were responsible for these tragedies. It is not a humane or ethical stance
to support and defend the actions of Abdülhamit II and senior CUP members
and their affiliated groups, gangs and marauders. Turkey should declare to
the world that it accepts said atrocities and massacres and that in
connection with this, it advocates the highest human values of truth,
justice and humanism while condemning the mentality and actions of those who
committed them in the past.
After this is done, it should invite all Armenians living in the diaspora to
become citizens of the Turkish Republic. As the Armenians of the diaspora
return to the geography where their ancestors lived for thousands of years
before being forced to abandon it, leaving behind their property, memories
and past, this may serve to abate their sorrow, which has now translated
into anger. The common border with Armenia should be opened without putting
forward any condition. This is what conscience, humanity and reason direct
us to do. Turkey will become free by getting rid of its fears, complexes and
worries by soothing the sorrows of Armenians.
*Dr. Ümit Kardas is a retired military judge.
02.05.2010
Op-Ed
Reply Thank you all for the comments.
Dear Antonia Arslan, I remember reading about the Varoujan translation in one of the Lebanese Armenian newspapers as a teenager in Beirut. And I, too, find "Skylark Farm" to be a great book.
I have received a few requests to cite the Varoujan poem I am referring to. The poem is titled "Charte" (The Massacre). Here's the link to the entire poem (the quote I use is at the very end):
http://www.armenianpoetry.org/armenian/poetry/jarte.htm
Khatchig Mouradian
30 Armenian churches in Constantinople? Ha-ha… Some of them may be open to mislead the world that religious freedom exists in Turkey. They also exist primarily because a pocket of Armenians, some 60,000, still remains in the city. There were roughly 3000 churches and monasteries in Western Armenia: the six Armenian-populated provinces in the Ottoman empire. And there was some 2 mln Armenians living there before 1915. Where are these churches and where are these people? My grandparents were from Moush, and my heart bleeds when I see on the Internet what Turks have done to gorgeous monasteries of Sourp Karapet and Sourp Araqelots. A pile of stones remains. Ancient stones with crosses on them, as well as marble altars can be seen on and inside the houses of local Kurds. Many other churches are turned to sheep-folds. How about many other half-ruined churches entrance to which is prohibited, or worshipping inside is prohibited? Your attempts at whitewashing the Turks are ridiculous. One cannot share an unsubstantiated rosy picture based on ‘been there, done that’ mentality. How about many other places and things you haven’t been to or done? If you consider yourself an educated person, don’t you read history, memories, witness accounts of many, many other visitors? Familiarize yourself with websites on the Internet? Or you just don’t care because what you see and how you are treated while in Turkey overshadows everything else that other people, scholars, human rights activists, organizations, and foreign governments are talking or writing about?
Շնորհակալութիւն, Խաչիկ.
Որքան հզօր է մայրենի լեզուն.
" ...Պիտի կանգնին գերեզմանին մեջ իրենց,
Ու անհանմբեր հեռուն, հեռուն ակնապիշ
Պիտի սպասեն վարդահեղեղ գալուստին
Արլաշույսի մ՛Արշալույսի մը ՝ որուն
(հավատացե՛ք ինձ, Մայրեր,)
Ես ոտնաձայնը կ՛առնեմ...
Դանիել Վարուժան"
Լալիկ
Gayane is right. 30 out of thousands. Or maybe that article about Ani that was more commented on than any other somehow missed your attention, as well as this article???
As for religious freedom in Turkey, I will take HIS word for it!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/17/60minutes/main5990390.shtml
ARM thank you
Karekin - you are like a PR man here. Even something positive is only spin from you to cover up more truth and what is necessary for ARMENIA to be able to take on too! That and the provocation of the Zionist conspiracy theories which I NEVER HEARD IN MY LIFE from the Armenian community I grew up in, nor from any Greeks including those with roots in Turkey, for that matter. Bravo for the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew on 60 Minutes. At least he tells the truth!!
The point is that it’s an endless effort….the Buddhists call it the ‘hungry ghost’…that can never be satisfied
this is an example of idiotic, impoverished judgment on every Armenian who cares about truth. It is disgusting to read your spin about "3000" years.
Here's something to look forward to in the "new Turkey" - a real investigation
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/04/30/dink-family-attorneys-demand-thorough-investigation/
Let's see if it happens, eh Karekin? Or will you call that, too, past history? Maybe you can make Nazi-like theories about it too. How can you quote Buddhism with your anti-Semitic provocations here?
Thank you, Silva.
Again, I agree with Gayane :-)
Using "Ahmet E". is a good idea. I believe that this article was posted for a good point by Ahmet E. The old Ahmet I don't think would have wanted us to read anything confirming genocide!
Murat, there is one place we come together in a strange way:
Blaming the Jews for everything the Ottoman Empire ever did is kind of like blaming the Armenians for the fact that every single subject peoples were revolting against it and glad to get rid of it! There's a reason why the Armenian community was WELCOME in the Arabic countries of your brother Muslims. They were glad to get rid of the Ottoman rule too!
Karekin, you are a careless and inattentive reader plus you are curiously inconsistent in the numbers you throw around regarding Armenian history and the years of subjugation by conquerors and invaders. You are dancing around with the facts again and anyone who tries to follow your lead will find their heads spinning. Engaging in dialogue with you is what appears to be futile.
I am as guilty as anyone else here of entertaining, and thus fueling, your incessant diasporan Armenian-bashing. Let's all just move on.
Janine, thanks so much for sharing the link above to the 60 Minutes interview with Greek Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew. His determination to stay in Turkey and struggle on because the Greeks were there since" before there was a Turkey" and because he believes in "resurrection" is inspirational to me as an Armenian.
Gökhan
In Germany you will be arrested if you say there was no genocide of the Jews. Do you have a problem with that?
I am very happy for the progress we read about here.
I am sad about this link below. what about these people? And the ambassador. When does progress come that far?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNfpYNeSyfE&feature=player_embedded
To: Boyajian
Thank you for your wise & just words to our brother Karekin. Has Karekin asked Jesus for forgiveness for his inappropriate words?
G
Yes, I've seen and read what many of you have said here, but if you expect me to sign on for an endless monologue of anger and hate, I can't and won't do it. Sorry. I've already said that many times here. Change the program, change the message...maybe you will see different results, otherwise, get used to your own unproductive anger. But as I have said, banging on someone's door over and over again w/ the same message, no matter how true it might be, won't get that person to open the door to you. What about that do you not understand? If Khatchig had arrived in Ankara screaming like a madman, do you think anyone would listen? Get real, please. If you want your message to be heard, you must change the method.
Tom,
Well said. I think the biggest message in your article was the fact that the April 24 memorial was brought indoors. If I remember correctly the whole purpose of the April 24 demonstration in Time Square was to make a point to the Turkish government and the general public so they know we are serious about our cause. However, when I heard that it was brought indoors, the first thought was what a shame since our martyrs walked through the desert and died in the harsh conditions of Der Zor and now we are so lame that we can not withstand the rain in the middle of New York City. Where there is an umbrella for sale on every corner. The second thought was who we are demonstrating for? All the people who were there already knew about the genocide. I looked around and there was no Turk present, no usual Turkish journalist to report on the event and no American general public who forsakes their values and supports the so called Turkish alliance with the US. It reminded me of the old tree falling in the forest and no one to hear its noise. That was when I got up and left, before this pitiful demonstration of the Armenian resolve was staged. If I was in the Turks’ shoes I would wonder how serious the Armenians are about the genocide, when they would not even brave few drops of rain to demonstrate. Certainly no one of consequence heard about what happened in the basement of the Diocese except some Armenians. It was funny to read how people were patting each other on the back about the great speeches.
Armen
Janine –
Many thanks for the link on the treatment of Orthodox Christians in Turkey. Can any westerner imagine anything like this in regard to their mosques and seminaries in, say, Germany? Nomads who invaded the capital of the Christian world, Constantinople, in 15th century AD, now dare to dictate the rules on how Christians should exercise their religious rights... I imagine what whining there would be had the Turks received similar treatment in Europe.
I concur with what Archbishop Bartholomew said in conclusion. We do believe in miracles, as well as God's punishment for evil-doers...
I feel there're still innocent children in this site.
Repeating ‘Jesus loves me yes I know’
Calling Jesus to save us!
I wonder which century we are in
To pray for Jesus and his gene.
Because of Jesus we were killed
Because of Jesus we could not defend our selves
Because of Jesus we were pushed to deserts
Because of Jesus we could not carry a gun
Giving our neck to our enemies.
If we believe in the same style
We will be still massacred and die
We believe in something doesn’t exist
And we shout on our enemies to save us.
What naive people we are!
I would very much appreciate a copy of your parents story. They have much in common and more needs to be understood. I value these histories and will welcome the opportunity to read yours if you would email it to marlmarty@aol.com. Thank you...
Turkish genocide of Armenians also has afflicted Greeks, including my parents. I have documentation in an article I’ve written. I’d welcome Armenians reading it, and recognizing they have a fellow victim and ally in the Greeks. – Silvia Beres in Eugene, Oregon.
And how many working mosques are there in Armenia?
You people have no idea who I am or what you're even talking about regarding me, so please contain your arrogance and propagandistic statements. If you care to have an intelligent discussion, fine, but demanding things of someone you don't know is just plain ridiculous. I am probably older than all of you combined, have more degrees and academic training and have a familial connection to the Dashaktsutiun that goes back a hundred years, but that has not closed my mind to new ideas and approaches to the world. Far from it.
There had been and should be no mosques in Armenia because Armenia has never been originally Muslim country that’s been invaded, looted, destroyed, massacred, and de-populated by nomadic Christian tribes from Altay mountains. As a Russian Tsarist guberniya (province), Yerevan for a couple of decades in the 19th century had a considerable Muslim population. The Blue Mosque in downtown Yerevan has been renovated by the Iranian specialists in the 1990s and is functioning now mainly for the needs of the diplomatic personnel of some Muslim countries, accredited in Yerevan, and their families.
And how many Christian churches have been transfromed into mosques in Turkey? Start with magnificent Hagia Sophia, if you will...
I can’t believe I’m doing this, Karekin, but you are an Armenophobic and utterly cynical, disrespectful person, I come to believe. If not for some of your skewed views, you are disliked for hiding as a coward from apologizing for insulting Lord Jesus. I can imagine what hysteria you’d whip up had any of us insulted prophet Mohammad. Several commentators here demanded that you apologize for insulting their religious feelings and you, the one who considers himself an intelligent, worldly-wise, mature, and pacifistic person, have never done so. If not for some of your superficial, detached from reality, views, you should be ashamed of yourself for this misdemeanor …
Thank you Karekin for explaining that you know nothing about "Azad Hayastan"
You say we don't know you, but we know you by every silly word - and omission.
ARM - yes, with Aghia Sophia. You know, the Turks are demanding of Greece that they open a mosque in downtown Athens (there are already mosques in Athens, yes) ... this is a way to "bargain" for stopping the destruction and confiscation of Greek Patriarchate properties in Turkey. So, the line here is already familiar. Which should be no surprise by now.
If you are so concerned about the 'original' religious orientation of Armenia, then you should be celebrating Zorastrianism. However, during the Arab and Persian periods, there were quite a few mosques in Yerevan, most of which were closed under the Soviet Russians...not the Armenians. The Blue Mosque has been restored...not by Armenia, but by Iran, and today is not a truly functioning mosque, though prayers are held there, there is no azan. And yes, Hagia Sophia became a mosque under the Ottomans, right after Constantinople was largely burned to the ground by the Crusaders, who hated the Byzantine Greeks and wanted the city for the pope. The bottom line is you cannot do a tit-for-tat comparison...if you do, you have to recognize that for 900+ years, there were up to 3000 Armenian churches operating across Anatolia. If the Turks really wanted to destroy them, they had plenty of time for that...why didn't they? Why was it the CUP and Talat Pasha who put this destruction into motion? You all really need to examine the history in detail, and learn things you don't know. You think you know it all, but you don't...just talk to any Bolsetsi...they will inform you of the truth.
Religious fanatics are all very much the same no matter who they revere.....and while the essence of most religions tends to be peaceful (at least according to what they preach) they have all caused as much damage and human suffering in the world as anyone else, if not more. I have nothing to be ashamed of...but they certainly do. Anyone who causes human suffering...no matter what the belief system, is a criminal in my book.
Turkey = Byzantine Greeks in the Western part + Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, and Kurds in the Central Eastern part + Armenians in the Eastern part + Syrian Arabs in Hatay province in the Southern part. All the rest march back to where you belong: steppes of Central Asia and Altay mountains.
The banners at the Diocese April 24 (25) events were nice. Really hardnosed for a change.
Karekin, you sound angry.
Oh my God.. Is Karekin for real??
He is asking how many Muslim mosques are in Armenia???? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW... that was a low blow there...
That was a simple disrespect to all Armenians... simple disgrace ... i personally would not want to see a Muslim use MY COUNTRY to built their stuff for praying WHY????.. Does Karekin know that our people were murdered because of their religion.. being Christian to be specific??? Our country is Christian and will remain Christian... Does he know that??? Is he really serious with his statement???
I am dumbfounded by this man's statements.. WoW...
Gayane
Karekin - your words are so disingenuous. First you say you care about peace and love, and you care about "not doing the same old thing" but you never truly engage in conversation with anyone. With you it is just the same old thing, full of contradictions.
Now we know the poor Mosque in Yerevan is to be pitied, it is not for real according to you. But the rest of the 1,000s of Christian worship sites in Turkey you say nothing about except the new line, to blame it on the CUP. The best thing we know now is that we have to ask the "Bolsetsis" for the truth. This is the number one most laughable statement I have ever read. Even Armenians who have left Istanbul will laugh at this. Do you think the rest of us from the rest of the places of Armenia in Anatolia do not have some experience from our families we can draw on for the truth??? (Or this newspaper for example.)
And there are so many things that you ignore. How about the Greek Patriarch, also a Turkish citizen. Do you know Turkey has lost an international court case and that the EC legal bodies have called on them to recognize the Ecumenical nature of the Patriarchates within Turkey? You say nothing about this while you talk of religious freedom!! How about Hrant Dink's family filing for a true investigation of the crime against him? You said nothing about that either.
It is you who really cannot change his tune.
And to state the obvious, it is what we have been doing thus far in activism that got us this far. Only some people REALLY want us to stop, now that Turkey has to face the truth in its relationships with the rest of the world. All your accusations do not amount to a hill of beans. You just keep throwing mud on people who tell the truth in peaceful ways, because we do not shut up. That is why you talk about anger and hatred; it is to cover up the anger and hatred of the Turkish official state position for the past 95 years where Armenians are concerned, so that it can stay in place and continue its destructive act of denial of genocide.
Sylva - It is my faith that teaches me to continue to tell the truth, no matter what it means. Without Christ and those who have followed him, I would not have this inspiration. It is not Christ who murdered us. Don't put the blame where it doesn't belong.
Since now it seems obvious that in Turkey there is a deep need to deal with genocide recognition around the world, I am certain we are seeing diplomacy efforts on every front and in every venue to make this issue go away as quickly as it can - and seeking to avoid the consequences of what seems by now inevitable recognition around the world.
I would like to hear more about the collaborationist efforts and what they look like. I feel we are going to be seeing a lot of them. This is the new front once we reach this stage (and we have just barely reached it). This will be the new front, softening the blow, avoiding consequences as much as possible. I do not wish to espouse any vengeful or hateful perspective. But it seems clear that there are questions now that need to be answered, and that are opening up for us -- questions on the monuments and cultural artifacts left behind, and ways in which other genocidal acts have been addressed through world courts and international law, stolen properties, etc.
I address this issue because I would like to be more thoroughly informed about it, and have a more clear understanding of all of its facets as we move forward from here. I hope this new phase will last and we don't just go back to total denial, which is always possible given what we have already experienced.
I’m not a religious person, young man, least of all am I a fanatic person, but I consider myself a faithful person. Are you capable of appreciating the difference between religious fanatism and faithfulness/spirituality or you need to be educated on this, too? Do I also need to remind you that in the civilized world, to which you claim to belong, any insults of religious nature are inappropriate? This has nothing to do with religions preaching peace, but causing damage. You insulted Jesus Christ, who preached Peace and Love, and never damaged anyone, but was brutally damaged himself and ultimately crucified for our sins, and YOUR sins, too. Is he a criminal in your(?!) book? Isn’t this insult of yours not enough to be ashamed of?
Thank goodness Harut cleared up a misconception that I had. I always thought it was Armenia that threw journalists in jail.
I THINK he means that his unhappy that Christians AMERICANS ARE not taking out all muslims in the middle east now. God is just, he must agree.
Why can we not stop engaging someone who does not want to have a fair, intellectual discussion? Inconsistent, irrelevant and specious arguments are merely distractions. In a fair discussion, both sides listen to each other and consider each others points, acknowledging each others arguments and valid points. That is not happening here.
Dear Mr. Sassounian;
I don't necessarily disagree with you, in general terms... However, I think you should publish the entire letter in question, to make your argument more effective.
Apres Janine jan..... Great reply to Karekin's comment...
Still have not figured why we are having this much heartache and headache to get our People's history and suffering restored and recognized.....despite the obvious..but those obvious reasons are so minute to my eyes that they should not cause this much choas, distortion, and rejection....LORD.. it is driving me up the wall ....
Gayane
Turks have been very fortunate that Mr. Sassounian has not been using all his God given potential against them so far. I and my all Armenian fellows are fortunate having An Armenian Armenian like Harut.
Thank you Harut.
Papken Hartunian
Turkish officials can do whatever comes to their mind.. The world knows how sneaky they are.. They will try every venue to get this matter brushed under the rug.
Just like my kuyrik Janine said... when they are on the verdge of either accepting it or forever lose their face, they need to find other ways to stir this matter.. and collaborating is the last option.. I personally will never succumb to their offers.. ..knowing very well what their intentions behind this friendly, willing to work things out, ect.. is for much sneakier reasons...what a joke..
If it is going to be like how Mr. Sassounian described above.. where there is still hate and denial in the Turkish Govt officials mind and heart, what is the point of having a discussion or organizing meetings....
I hope LA Times send a strong response telling Hakan to SHUT UP.. because America is the land of free.. here we have freedom of speech.. Media and newspaper in this country is free to voice what they believe needs to be voiced...he thinks he can shut a newspaper mogul like LA Times??..
Gayane
I agree completely. The tactics are varied and intended to enhance dialogue and increase recognition of the genocide among Turks, but the goal is singular: justice. We need to take care in walking the tightrope of negotiations along the path to justice, that we do not compromise our ultimate goal.
Concisely, just because intellectuals and human rights activists in Turkey must speak a certain way does not require us to speak in the same way even when we support their efforts. We can appreciate why they hold certain positions without embracing them ourselves. We have the freedom to speak in our own voice and an obligation to defend our rights.
The question was ‘And how many working mosques are there in Armenia?’ and the response was given to that particular question. What does this have to do whether or not one is 'concerned about the ‘original’ religious orientation of Armenia?' Sorry, I don’t see the link.
Human civilization has undergone various transformations: societal, developmental, and religious, too. Many ancient nations were worshipers of different religious beliefs at the dawn of their ethnogenesis: Zoroastrianism, Paganism, Hellenism, etc. However, Christians believe that with the coming of Jesus Christ a new light was given to us, and Armenians pride themselves of being the first nation that adopted Christianity as their state religion. It’s been our religion for more than 1700 years; it’s been the religion we fought for, died for, were martyred for, and in the most recent history, were annihilated for. Yet, we preserved it and continue to live with and in Christ. We don’t need to particularly ‘celebrate’ Zoroastrianism, some of its traditions are still preserved (i.e. ‘trndez,’ jumping over the fire, etc.). However we’re a distinctly Christian nation.
During the Arab and Persian periods (and I believe you’re referring to the 16th-19th centuries, not earlier Persian domination) there was no such a capital city as Yerevan. Dvin, Kars, and ultimately Ani were Armenian capitals during the Arab rule and Isfahan was a Persian capital when Eastern Armenia was annexed to Persia and then to Russia in 1828. Yerevan was just a small provincial city during the Persian and Tsarist rule, and the Blue Mosque is the remnant of that period.
The Blue Mosque has been restored by Iranian specialists with the permission of the government of Armenia, because Iranians themselves expressed wish and, obviously, knew more about restoration techniques of a Muslim mosque than Christian specialists. Yes, and there is no azan because the mosque densely surrounded by residential areas in the downtown Yerevan. But let the Turkish government give us the permission to restore our 3000 churches and monasteries, and I could live with no bell tolls emanating from them.
The Church of the Holy Wisdom, Hagia Sophia, was converted into a mosque not after Constantinople was ‘burned to the ground by the Crusaders’ (where did you get that?!), but because Turks under Sultan Mehmed II sieged it the city in 1453. Aalmost all of it defenders were brutally murdered, after which the Turks proceeded to loot and destroy the beautiful Christian city.
In the case of the Turks, it is possible to do a tit-for-tat comparison, and for a simple reason. Historically, Turks are newcomers to Asia Minor. As nomads, they devastated other peoples’ lands, artifacts, religious relics, and then converted them as if they’ve been theirs in all times. This is a typical nomadic, settlers’ mentality. When you don’t have something that’s been created by you, you just steal everything from others and then portray it as your own.
Yes, there were roughly 3000 Armenian churches and monasteries across Asia Minor (Anatolia? What is it? A new geographical toponym?). You claim: ‘If the Turks really wanted to destroy them, they had plenty of time for that?’ Excuse me, but they did in 1915-1923. It doesn’t matter when they did it, what matters is they they were capable of scorching other civilizations’ achievements. ‘Why didn’t they do it before?’ Because it was in 1908 when the Young Turks’ overturn of Sultan happened, and they started massive efforts at Turkofication of all ancient, indigenous inhabitants who lived there long before Turks appeared. And the final solution they found, I think I don’t need to mention. Even though you might be referring to a contention as to who CUP members, including Tallat Pasha, actually were, given their alleged ethnicity or social affiliation to Freemasonry, the genocide of the Armenians was carried out by THEIR hands. Therefore, the current Turkish government will have to acknowledge and apologize for the CUP clique’s crimes.
Sassounian wrote:
"Armenians are indeed fortunate that Turkey’s leaders have inadvertently protected Armenia’s national interests by not ratifying the Protocols, so that they could extract more concessions from the Armenian government!"
Regardless of what one thinks of the Protocols, Sargsyan played it quite well. Armenian diplomacy has come a long way since the games typical of the LTP era.
Armenians need not claim fortuity for Turkish intransigence. It’s not luck, but rather the Armenians out-smarted the Turks. There is no need to engage in self-depreciation. The reasons why the Turks were unable to engage the Armenians are now history.
Faced with a diplomatic victory, Armenia is in a stronger position than it was just a year ago, a fact that still eludes some of the wise.
David Davidian
www.regionalkinetics.com
YES INDEED...Justice is our ultimate goal...
Gayane
Here are some ideas that come to mind:
An informed Armenian American will probably vote for an Armenian candidate if all other things are at least equal among / or between the candidates.
It’s natural for people to feel an affinity for their own.
No matter what the parameters of a group (pro-abortion or against, pro-gay marriage or against), a candidate from that group is more likely to be best attuned to their concerns and represent it. Therefore, that group will tend to support one of their own.
Insinuating that Armenian Americans vote only for their own candidates is in my opinion insulting their intelligence. I'd like to emphasize the fact that although Armenian Americans have immigrated to the U.S. much later than the Germans, English, Irish, French, they've mostly come looking for democracy, unlike other immigrants who've come because of economic reasons. That's because they've suffered from the lack of democracy in the countries where they've lived. I am one of them. All Americans have come here from different ethnic backgrounds and cultures, which we're all proud of, as you've mentioned. However, when it comes to voting for a candidate, as any other informed American, Armenians will vote for the candidate who best represents their needs here in the U.S., no matter what his or her ethnicity.
I deeply respect the courage of the "some Turkish intellectuals" or other individuals who speak about the Armenian Genocide and the courage of Armenians who go to Turkey to talk about the Genocide, raising various questions pertaining to the Armenian Genocide.
But I am uncomfortable with the importance given to these events. Justice for the Genocide is Justice for the Armenian Question, and Justice for the Armenian Question means TERRITORIAL COMPENSATIONS. I don't care about a Turk returning a home to an Armenian. I care about Armenian historic lands returned to the state of Armenia in a manner that secures the National Security of Armenia and gives it access to the sea in an way that cannot be hindered or controlled by Turkey in the future. And I have yet to hear any Turkish intellectual recognizing the Armenian Genocide talk about this.
The atmosphere in Turkey is not ripe for it? Maybe. In that case, allow me to doubt all what is going on currently as "dialog between intellectuals" as an effort by Turket to let some steam out from the pressure cooker to further its own political ploys.
"I care about Armenian historic lands returned to the state of Armenia in a manner that secures the National Security of Armenia and gives it access to the sea in an way that cannot be hindered or controlled by Turkey in the future..."
I have a suggestion... how about writing a petition to the Turksih government? I can not see why they would not be interested in this very reasonable request. They seem to be good at this anyway. All they need to do is ethnically cleanse their own people from half of the their own country and make room for Armenians. Yes, it makes so much sense. As you demand they should do this in a way that preserves the security of Gretaer Armenia. They should do this because it is the right thing to do, and besides it would be too much to ask for Armenians to fend for themsleves against 50M angry Turks and worse, Kurds, not to mention Assyrians, Arabs and Greeks and who knows who else. After all, billions of people can trace their ancestors to these lands. Maybe those darn Kemalists should be all marched through Sahara, and maybe we can time it to take place around 2015. Now that would be a meaningful act, no? I am not sure why no one else thought of this before!
"You know, the Turks are demanding of Greece that they open a mosque in downtown Athens (there are already mosques in Athens, yes) …"
Actually there is no such request officially from Turks. It is 750K Muslims who live in and around Athens that demand and need it. Once there were around 140 Mosques in Athens historians tell us. Now there is none, not a single one. Even the Olympic committee could not shame them into building one, even for show purposes. Imagine what an oxymoron it is for such a country to host Olympics. I hear they have agreed to build one finally, but the Greek taliban has demanded they be built without minarets!
In Istanbul alone there are more churches than some small Christian countries. Of the thousands of churches in Anatolia, many are not in use for the simple reason that there is nobody to use them there anymore. It is changing somewhat though, and the growing population of Christians who have chosen their final home to be in the Turkish Riveria, has forced the municipalities there to build churches. Not so strangely, the local imams are the first ones the christians turn to in these matters.
Constantinople was sacked and ruined by the crusaders. More than once. Some of the loot still decorates various Venetian palaces today. Even Aya Sofya carries the scars from various attacks, including Vikings. That magnificient structure has survived many more earthquakes becasue of the additional support and repairs Ottomans did. It also served as a house of God for centruies more. First act of Fatih Mehmet after conquering Constantinople was to make sure Aya Sofya was untouched and also declared all Christians of the city his subjects and thus under his protection. That was 500 years ago.
Go Harut! Great article. I think some of these Turks don't see past their anti-Armenian propoganda. They haven't realized that we are one together and that we will forever be there. They have nowhere to hide and their only solution is coming to terms about their past. Yet they continue their backwards ways and still show their uncivilized methods. They have nowhere to go.
Thank you, Heike. What a mirror you hold up for us! I never really thought about it before, and not really proud of it either, but I have to admit that I might lean toward the Armenian candidate, all else being equal. I can see where this might smack of nepotism, but I think you hit upon something when you said our community sees things as "us and them." My theory is this: when you are a group that has experienced a serious threat to your existence (genocide) and other groups (nations) don't rally to your defense in sheer humanitarianism, but instead abandon moral imperatives to satisfy geopolitical and economic considerations that leave your group marginalized and isolated for decades, your group can begin to feel like it is going it alone (I apologize for the run-on sentence). Just another remnant of the trauma of genocide that the Armenian community needs to heal.
You know what disturbs me?? Karekin and Murat have the same thoughts... They both believe that Crusaders are to blame for..... Wow..
In Istanbul alone there are more churches than some small Christian countries. Of the thousands of churches in Anatolia, many are not in use for the simple reason that there is nobody to use them there anymore
Of course there is no one to use these churches..because majority of them are destroyed.. and no Christian have the ability to freely practice their religion in Turkey.. NO MATTER how much you try to convince us otherwise with your twisted information..
Gayane
Sereli Unger Harut,
All the Armenian must bee proud of you, having a great Armenian Journalist, no one has any right to attack you or Criticizies you, you are one of the bast and just keep up the good work that you have been duing for a long time now as a journalist, we all thank you for that and God blas you and your family,
Saint Gomidas Is My Faith
We are Born Armenians.
Are born with Natural Faith.
Do any one of you think before Christianity
We never possessed faith!
Faith is gene born with Us
And flairs with our arts.
We don’t believe in Slavery
Neither birthed to Slay.
Christianity did not teach us how to behave
Kindness and care born with us.
Our faith is Gomidasian
He is the only human
Who invented immortal hymns
For us and for all faiths,
Who can understand his inner gait.
His ‘Sharagans’ are my faith
And no one can him replace.
He is an Armenian Saint
I am birthed from his genes
And I bend my knees
And for him sing and praise.
I believe only in him
Because I can see him
And hear his voice in my dreams
In my Soulful-Hart *no one
Can take his place.
You will anwer
Because Gomidas was Christian
My answer is:
Because he genes birthed from mother Armenian
Before he knew what Christianity meant.
Saint Gomidas Is My Faith
and not Jesus
Whom I never met!
____________________________
*Hart: Heart ; Lyrical with one syllable
From the book 'Lance My hart at a Glance'
Thank you friend!!!!!!!!!
Iao, are you for real? I have to say your comment made me very angry and am holding myself hardly from writing a very sarcastic comment here. Half of my relatives are from Greece and the others are from Georgia and Erzurum. They had to leave their homes and move to Western Turkey after the WW1. For all I know none of my relatives look like an Asian and I can't trace my family tree more than 3 generations back. I was born and I was raised here. This is my home. What you are suggesting is NOT any different than what Ottoman Empire did. For someone who carries the scars of a great tragedy and pain, your words are too hurtful and expressed after a poor evaluation.
Gayane, I do know the feeling and thoughts that made you write this comment. However, since Republic of Armenia is a democratic country, in any case of the country having enough Muslim citizens demanding a place to worship, it should be provided. That's the state's obligation: covering the needs of its citizens.
I also don't want you to fall into the same mistake whole Kemalists and some of Christians do. Religion itself does not make one, a better person or the opposite. It's thinking and understanding that does the trick. What makes most Muslims today terrorists is the thought that they believe they are speaking the words of God. I have seen Christians who commit sins. I have a friend who has witnessed a priest say in a sermon "Murderers shouldn't be punished for their act is God's will" A CHRISTIAN PRIEST!!! Makes any sense? No. Being respectful to others, being tolerant to others, being patient... they come with understanding of God's teachings. Just because the first image that pops into mind when someone says "Islam" does not represent what most people would consider as "right", does not mean all Muslims are narrow minded and evil.
Well, if you think the Young Turks (sometimes called the old Spanish Jews), conducted the genocide because of religion, then you really are misinformed. The goal of the genocide was THEFT...plain and simple...THEFT. In order to steal, they had to conduct ethnic cleansing. You may not know it, but there were plenty of imams across Turkey at the time who adamantly refused to participate according to the orders of the CUP criminals and even protected Armenians. The point is that until 1915, yes, there were thousands of Armenian churches, vanks and schools operating according to the rules of the millet system, that allowed minorities to conduct their own affairs. But please, think outside the tiny, little, bigoted box you have put your mind in for a minute, and try to understand that there actually was a very different reality operating in Turkey that allowed the genocide to take place...without the sultan even knowing about it or giving consent to it. These people (sophisticated, anti-Christian) arrived in Turkey 400 years earlier and worked very, very hard to take what the Armenians and Greeks had created over thousands of years and finally did it under the cover of war. Just as George Bush and his neo-cons murdered more than a million innocent Iraqis and created 4 million refugees, and looted the US treasury, Talat Pasha and his group did the same thing a hundred years earlier. There is alot of similarity despite the time change.
What you all seem to ignore is something that is a key element of Armenian religious teaching...that God is actually in you..not floating in the clouds somewhere. So, treat every human being with respect. It is not about books or famous personages, it is about humanity. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Plain and simple. I really don't see that happening here. That said, someone alot more famous said something brilliant a long time ago, that religion is the opiate of the masses. And, I for one, do not do drugs and have no need for drugs. But, that is all beside the point....if you believe Armenians were murdered for religious reasons, then you obviously don't understand that the majority were saved by Muslim Arabs and Persians. That's where your theory falls flat. If it were not for caring Muslims, most Armenians in the Middle East would have perished completely.
I cannot see why the Turkish government wouldn’t be interested in the very reasonable suggestion by Murat. Armenians know firsthand how good the Turkish state is at murdering and relocating older, more civilized nations. Indeed, in 1915-1923 the state ethnically cleansed their own people of Armenian descent from all of their own ancestral lands and made room for Turks and Kurds. Therefore, it makes so much sense in Murat’s suggestion to play the whole thing back by means of ongoing petitions to the governments of the world that will ultimately make Turkey acknowledge the annihilation of a millennia-old, indigenous Western Armenian civilization. Restoration of historical justice for Armenia would make modern Turks angry? Then with the same token imagine how, mildly speaking, angry the Armenians are, who decades before experienced the barbarity of the Turks: nomadic tribes that invaded Asia Minor in the 11th century AD and then formed their Ottoman empire, the prison of nations.
Throughout history, the six provinces of Van, Bitlis, Diyarbekir (Arm: Tigranakert), Kharberd, Erzerum, and Sivas (Arm: Sebastia), cumulatively known as Western Armenia, were populated predominantly by Armenians for millennia before all of them were mass exterminated or deported by the Turkish state. Armenians don’t need to trace ancestors in those lands, we know and the world knows, and even the Turks know, that we were there for millennia.
A counter suggestion: why won’t you try to answer the question as to why there are Armenians no more on these lands and why for 95 years they demand justice?
You must be suffering from a fundamental psychological and personality problem. In addition to that, you seem to be a very obdurate and inattentive person. You disregard the point in one's view that you feel uncomfortable about and deliberately jump to irrelative rhetoric. You must be either a careless person or have some characteristics of schizophrenia, i.e. abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality. Or it might be just an old ‘good’ tactics of turning everything on its head.
If ‘treating every human being with respect’ is indeed your guideline, you wouldn’t offend the most sensitive feelings that human beings have, that is, the ones related to their faith. By having insulted Jesus and not apologizing for misdemeanor, you demonstrate what essentially disreputable person you are. And the one with offbeat reasoning, too. What does Karl Marx’ quote re: religion has to do here? Besides, Marx put a completely different meaning in it. And where on earth has anyone made a comment ‘if you believe Armenians were murdered for religious reasons?’ Where in the comments above have you seen anyone presenting a ‘theory’ about Armenians being saved by Arabs and Persians so you denounce it as ‘flat’? Has anyone here ever touched upon this subject? On the contrary, it is the fact that Armenians are thankful for and always demonstrate to the Turks that they have no problems with the Muslims, they have problems with the Turkish state.
P.S. It was not the ‘majority’ of the Armenians that was saved by Muslim Arabs and Persians. It was the remaining minority of the survivors of the genocide. The majority has been slaughtered in cold blood by your Turkish brethren.
Sylva - I appreciate your thoughts about Komitas but as a Vartabed I believe that he would tell you that you are wrong.
Karekin, your thoughts grow more and more contradictory. More to the point, they create things out of thin air that nobody said here in order to make new accusations about what Armenians think. Distracted and anarchic is now the feeling. And there is no denying the fact that those who converted avoided death by doing so. As for the continued Zionist conspiracy nonsense, that just proves you contradict your own words about how people should behave. Oh the poor duped Sultan. And the majority of the posters here feel that you are not doing what you preach at all, but you just don't listen.
But please, think outside the tiny, little, bigoted box you have put your mind in for a minute, and try to understand that there actually was a very different reality operating in Turkey that allowed the genocide to take place…without the sultan even knowing about it or giving consent to it. These people (sophisticated, anti-Christian) arrived in Turkey 400 years earlier and worked very, very hard to take what the Armenians and Greeks had created over thousands of years and finally did it under the cover of war.
Yes, and modern Turkey continues to cover up their acts in the name of Turkish nationalism and has done so for 95 years, taking on completely the identity of ultranationalism and criminalizing minority language, schools etc. Kaput goes the theory. Your use of the term "Old Spanish Jews" is blaming religion for something. Besides being completely crazy, I really think such racist postings shouldn't be allowed here.
SG - There are many Christians who are pacifist. They do not believe in taking a life. The Vatican itself is against the death penalty - even as a punishment for murder. I don't know what your friend heard but it sounds extremely distorted and I can't be sure of the intent of the priest - it could mean all kinds of things. Jesus never taught his disciples to give retribution for his murder but taught the opposite.
Murat - Actually there is no such request officially from Turks. It is 750K Muslims who live in and around Athens that demand and need it.
Yes, the request is from Turkey; it has been used as a bargaining chip. And they wanted it in the middle of downtown - the most expensive property, where all the government buildings are etc. The thousands of illegal Muslim immigrants (who come through Turkey) are already free to worship. And Aghia Sophia is now a museum, not a working church. And you cannot blame anybody but Turkey for that.
The first paragraph in my previous post should be italicized -- I am quoting Karekin. The thoughts are so offensive on so many levels ... they are not mine!
PS By the way, another mosque is being built -- just not in the center of downtown but more close to where the Muslim (mostly illegal) immigrants actually live.
So when does Aghia Sophia actually get to function as a church?
Mr. Hakan Tekin, the Turkey Ambassador to the U.S. will be badly beaten in the ideological battle against Harut Sassounian, the publisher of The California Courier, because what Mr. Sassounian is doing is doing according to his heart and his soul, whereas Mr. Hakan Tekin is doing is an obligation coming from the Turkish diplomacy.
Murat - by the way I hope you saw the Patriarch on 60 Minutes. He said he was being crucified.
Oh, and regarding these theories about "Old Spanish Jews" --
At one of the April 24th events I listened to a translation of a speech made in the Ottoman Parliament by an Armenian deputy in 1908. He was warning of the terror that was happening among the Armenian community - bodies being found, and also girls kidnapped and forcibly converted.
Included in that speech was remarks warning about anti-Zionist conspiracy theories being touted as well. And he was worried -- warned -- that this could also lead to pogroms against Jews and in Europe. This is a warning about these theories we are hearing here.
I frankly think such theories are extraordinarily racist, we know what they are. They should be considered a form of hate speech. And we here all know why they are made and that they are horribly ridiculous. Who looted Asia Minor???
I’m sorry if my words were hurtful, SG. There’s a couple of Turkish commentators in these pages, namely Murat and Karekin, whose distasteful comments and explicit derogation of the feelings of the Christian faithful (in case of Karekin), that made me lose my temper. I understand what it means to consider some place a home, and I trust you can share our feelings, too, when Armenians long for our home in Western Armenia. Witnesses say my grandparents’ house in Moush is still there, occupied by Kurds. Imagine the pain of descendants, whose grandparents were mass exterminated in cold blood, deported for their homes, died of starvation in deserts. Their property was stolen, their churches, monasteries, schools ruined, their businesses looted, their rich cultural heritage destroyed, and their millennia-old history of inhabitance on those lands as indigenous people put to end…
I am pitiful to those intellectuals who still accept as true that it was Serge who played the protocols game. Apparently, these people play ostrich by disregarding, intentionally or at folly, the fact that the game was imposed on Serge, and that by no means was he one of the players. The players with capital letter ‘p’ were others, some were seen standing behind Turkish and Armenian foreign ministers at the signing ceremony, whereas Serge and his ‘diplomacy’ was just a tool in advancing their interests. It is not self-depreciation, but rather a clear-headed, pragmatic evaluation of the situation in the broader region and the interests that may be at play. A pragmatic, national interest-based diplomacy would never allow for such, at best, unsubstantiated and controversial and, at worst, defeatist and humiliating protocols, to ever be considered, let alone be signed and submitted for parliamentary ratification.
I am also puzzled as to the motives of those who call this ‘a diplomatic victory.’ What essentially has been achieved? The Turkish-Armenian border was re-opened? Turkey ceased their efforts at linking the rapprochement issue with that of Nagorno-Karabakh? Turkish government has expressed readiness to stop the denialist campaign and acknowledge the Armenian genocide? The only positive development that I see in connection to the protocols is that the ill-fated documents stirred up some commotion in Turkey in regard to the genocide recognition. Was it the overarching objective of Serge’s ‘diplomacy’? And exactly in what way this ‘victory’ has put Armenia in ‘stronger position?’ Civil society started functioning? National economy is now based on efficient infrastructures, not on nepotism-driven system? Public-spirited government has come to power? Transparent elections are now being held? Independent judiciary defending people’s rights has been introduced? Lastly, if stirring commotion in Turkey was Serge’s objective, can he now withdraw signature from the protocols?
Armenian diplomacy during the LTP era was constrained by an ongoing war in Artsakh, fragile post-truce developments, and LTP’s deteriorating rating. Given these circumstances, any explicit move, similar to the one that Serge was forced to make (read: signing the protocols) by LTP was unimaginable and suicidal. Had LTP been the president under the current circumstances, his ‘diplomacy’ would have been conducted in similar way.
I feel sorry for some of the wise in these pages who make superficial, mechanical evaluations of events.
Sorry, Sylva - I wish to clarify something.
I agree entirely that Christ must live in those who exemplify his teachings today, here and now. In that you are entirely right in my opinion when you speak about Komitas in the way that you do. I was just saying that in terms of "worship" he would tell us he was not God for worshiping, but would point to Christ & Father & Spirit. We understand the love in Komitas.
I have not yet read Balakian's translation of his uncle's book. I have it, but I have yet to take it on, and its inclusion of Komitas' days of genocide and destruction
David z
The signing of the protocols were simply a manisfestation of the keepers' actions to show that they will continue to throw food into the cage.
My friends, you all appear sincere in your efforts to converse with someone who is not dealing fairly with you. You have usually made your points respectfully. You have tried to clarify that you are not an angry hater of Turks but a staunch hater of injustice; one who feels emboldened by their faith and morality to take a stand against genocide because no nation should benefit from such inhuman acts. Despite the many times you have asserted your admiration for Turks who have bravely begun to confront the truth, as well as asserted that your struggle is against the denialist Turkish government not the Turkish people (who have been lied to and misinformed), you are continually berated for your "anger and hatefulness." In addition, you have been accused of being obsessed with a futile cause and having a callous disregard for Armenia and its citizens.
There is a serious disconnect here. The person you are addressing is either incapable of taking in and processing new information or is deliberately spewing his own form of hate and anger onto anyone who will entertain him. This person's motives are not clear, but he is a squacking parrot, stuck on his point and unable to move off of it, no matter how much new evidence he is offered. It is quite disturbing and I myself have been taken in by the what appears on the surface to be a reasonable person's thoughts only to later realize that there is no mutually respectful exchange of ideas happening here. With every response you offer, you are only providing a vehicle for another illogical barrage of accusations. You don't have to defend yourself against unfounded accusations by someone who doesn't know you and won't or can't hear or comprehend what you are saying.
Boyajian, you're right - as well as others who have said the same thing.
I take responsibility for my part in this! On the other hand, there are issues raised that I thought needed to be addressed, that were ways of throwing mud on our whole community... but your point is well-taken. It's better if we have a good and useful dialogue among ourselves. Although I do agree with someone else who posted that the replies were also useful if only to bring up new information in response . Several people's responses have informed me about things I did not know about before. But to all of you with constructive aims in mind, I send my thanks and embrace!
PS Boyajian et al,
I read Sassounian's article here about being co-opted. I just wonder if we are not seeing a little bit of the next phase of this struggle for recognition, now that it perhaps seems inevitable to some.
Think outside the tiny, little, bigoted box you have put your mind in for a minute, and try to understand that there actually was a very different reality operating in Turkey that allowed the genocide to take place…without the sultan even knowing about it or giving consent to it.
Do you mean to say that Sultan Abdul Hamid II, nicknamed by the Europeans as ‘Bloody Sultan’ for his widespread massacres of non-Turks, has not given orders to commit mass murders of the Armenians in 1894-96? Up to 300,000 Armenians are believed to be killed during the Hamidian massacres. You mean the Sultan, too, was unaware back then? Or he, too, was a crypto-Jew and a freemason? You get your mind out of the tiny, little, bigoted box you’ve put it in... You cannot differentiate between the alleged ethnic origin or secret affiliation of CUP members and the state authority they represented at the time of the annihilation of the Armenians. Essentially, it doesn’t matter who they were ethnically. Yes, Emmanuel Carasso, the founder of the CUP was Jewish-Italian B’nai B’rith official, Mehmed Talat is believed to be of Jewish origin, as were Djavid Bey, Refik Bey (Refik Saydam), and Vladimir Jabotinsky. Mustafa Kemal is believed to be born to Jewish parents in Salonika. Many CUP members were also Freemasons.
But you fail to acknowledge the fact that in 1915 they represented the Turkish State. It is on their orders Armenians were massacred and mutilated, deported, their property stolen, and their religious and cultural marbles destroyed.
Several notorious dictators and criminals had diverse ethnic background, but they’re condemned in their capacity as rulers of their respective States, not because of their ethnicity. Josef Stalin was a Georgian, but he was the ruler of the Russian State, and his Great Purge is denounced as a crime against humanity. Adolf Hitler allegedly had Jewish blood, but he was the ruler of the German State, and Nazism is denounced as a crime against humanity. Napoleon was a member of the Corsican nobility of Italian origin, but he was the ruler of the French Consulate and oppressor of many nations. Maximilien de Robespierre allegedly was of Irish descent, but it wouldn’t stop him and other members of the radical Jacobin party to organize ‘blood bath’ in the form of French Revolution as a leader of the French Republic. Pol Pot was of Chinese descent but perpetrated the genocide of the Cambodians as the ruler of the State of Kampuchea and the leader of the Khmer Rouge regime.
The genocide of the Armenians was perpetrated for a variety of reasons. Theft is just one of them. Other motives for committing mass murder of the Armenians were Turkish traditional intolerance of ethnic, religious, and cultural minorities that inhabited the area long before the Seljuk invasion; fear for national liberation from the Turkish yoke that could eventually dismember the empire; fear for entrepreneurial and business prowess by the Armenians that could take part of the political and economic power from the Turks; and fear for Russian advances through the Armenian-populated areas who Turks feared would side with as Christians. The fear for Russian advances deeper into the Middle East through Armenian-populated areas was also shared by the Germans who covertly instigated the deportations and massacres of the Armenians. The British, too, wouldn't want to see that happening. The whole ancient civilization was wiped out because of a set of domestic, and some external, interests.
The Armenian Genocide, as well as earlier Hamidian massacres, was planned and executed by the legal government of the Turkish State. Therefore, the modern-day Turkish State is responsible for denying the crime. It is the Turkish State that must repent and ask for forgiveness from the Armenians.
My admiration goes out to both SG and Iao for demonstrating how civilized and respectful people can navigate from hurt feelings to a sincere apology.
Mr. Sassounian, you are a through and through Armenian, and you are fighting for our cause with your pen and intellect. You are making your grandmother very proud up there. Although.....
When all the details settle, "History" will judge how Serge Sarkissian played his hand in the Protocols' political game. Yes, nothing came out of it, however, we came very close to a disastrous treaty between the two countries, had the Diaspora and the Armenian Constitutional Court not interceded. Now was this precalculated by Serge Sarkissian? Hard to tell. His visiting of Der Zor and President Woodraw Wilson's shrine however were powerful messages to Turkey and the world.
We need to move forward on a much clearer and aggressive stance.
Mr. Sassounian, the dance of words is fun, but don't you think it is time to move on to outright legal measures? Isn't it high time, we sue the government of Turkey for all of our lands, properties and lives lost? What are we waiting for? For the last survivor to perish, and the last property deed to get lost? If justice is on our side, why are we hiding behind beautifully written articles? THIS is what's giving Turkey the time and the luxury to linger.
We have come a long way. Many countries and states have acknowledged the Armenian Genocide thanks to the efforts of individuals such as yourself, and in recent years with the general involvement of the Armenian people through Internet sites, books etc. We need to show it to ourselves and to the world that the wrong has to be legally punished. Legal proceedings should not depend on countries who are not accepting the "Genocide" because it does not suit their own political interests. Waiting for the US to acknowledge the Genocide is undermining our cause, and hurting the credibility of our legal case. Even if the legal proceedings are not well prepared/funded and fail, they will at least put the details of this crime on the international stage and make Turkey really sweat. It will also be at least recorded that "the legal claims/proceedings have started in the 95th year after the Genocide"... Let's not hit the 100th mark, waiting for others to give us the green light to seek legal justice. Why do you think the Turks have left our lands in Eastern Turkey underdeveloped and in many areas in the same state as we have left them? They have been waiting to be asked to return them. When are we going to attempt to ask for reparations for them? I am hopeful that the legal map for the Legal leg of the Genocide crime is being worked on seriously. Now that would really be a Zeituntsi stance, wouldn't it?
Iao... I agree with you...
SG- I too want to apologize if my words were hurtful. That was not my intention.. However, i am glad that you understood why I said what I said by putting yourself in my state of mind... My family lost too much because of the Genocide; hence why many things related to Turkey just does not sit well with me..... No matter how democtratic the country is and how much I want to believe that allowing this will not interfere with the people living in Armenia, I just don't agree with the mosques in Armenia...If it is for political reasons, and my country decides to open mosques, i can't do much about it or cant stop them... I truly respect your view point .. but I still stand firm what I said about it..Thank you for you open mind and understanding.....Your input is very much welcome.......
Janine jan.. apres kuyrik jan for always stating the obvious and the truth...
Karekin... NO COMMENT....
Gayane
Yes, thank you everyone for your sincere comments, as already expressed by others above
ARM - You are filling me in on a lot of things I don't know! Thank you for your learned expression of history, please keep informing me!
Janine, 'tis curious and curiouser!
I totally agree that our conversations with Karekin were not without benefit. I have thoroughly enjoyed the level of passion and intelligence I have read in so many of the comments. I only mean to point out the lack of mutuality on his part. He has his agenda and does not really care what others think. As I have said, he made many interesting and thought-provoking points, but they always got obscured by his incessant rant about angry and hateful Armenians and unwarranted accusations about commentators on this forum. We could have had an informative exchange of ideas regarding how the diaspora could be helpful to Armenia or more encouraging of dialogue with Turks, but even when asked directly and given the opportunity to say more about his ideas, he offered no substance and reverted to berating. I don't pretend to understand what is behind all of it, but I don't want to play the game any more. It feels very dishonest.
Bravo, Katia K.
THIS IS WHAT TO DO:
Armenians can/should write all Glenn Beck’s sponsors to let them know that his mocking Armenian issues adversely reflects on interest for their products.
IAO.. THANK YOU.. I was going to list every province in Turkey to show that majority of the inhabitants were Armenians at that time.. We both know Murat is ignorant of the true history...
Murat is swimming in his own imagination and he needs to be forgiven.
I call upon Jesus Christ to give me patience and allow me to control my frustration because of Murat and his kind who deliberetly trying to stir the pot and acting like smat a********es***... That includes our own beloved Karekin..Oh how much I love his comments... It is like killing me softly.. Torture..
Jirayr.. Yes qo het em 100%.. The lands and everythign else that was taken from us should be given back... .. And yes, Greeks, Assyrians, Bulgarians and everyone who suffered during the Genocide should also demand their lost properties.....
Gayane
Boyajian.. you hit the bull's eye...
Janine-- it was me who said that even though we enterain this human being named Karekin, I learned alot from reading the comments going back and forth.. I am guilty of contributing to the matter but like my sister, I could not just stand on the sidelines and not say something. However, I learned alot from this.. Shat shat mesi Janine jan for always providing strong and valid arguments..I enjoy reading them..
That goes to Boyajian, Karo and others .. Thank you all.. Because of you, I am more informed about alot of things... Yes.. it is true that i speak mostly with passion and feelings... but I have you all fine people to do more the factual writing and I thank you for it..:)
Gayane
Maybe those darn Kemalists should be all marched through Sahara, and maybe we can time it to take place around 2015. Now that would be a meaningful act, no? I am not sure why no one else thought of this before!
Murat, someone thought of it before. You are talking to a whole audience made up of the survivors of this "idea" of yours
VAY KATIA JANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.. I am so glad you are back..
Mernem yes qo srtin u xelqin...:) Again how my grandma would have said when she was alive..
I am 100000000000000000000000000000% behind you .. It is time for the Armenian people go after Turkey LEGALLY.... Being nice, understanding, shy, passive and polite definintely will not take us anywhere.. Enough feeding Turkey's ego... Lets throw our gloves down and sui THEIR u know what.....
Gayane
Gayane - haha, I learned an expression from a friend today! I will not say it to anybody but share with you her father's expression ...
"Ter dasu daree goozes vor esh ullas"
Ayo Ayo... Boyajian.. it is because SG is intelligent enough to understand the stand we are taking and the reason behind it.. Hence why I respect and admire SG (as I always said in the past). If every Turk was as understanding and open minded as SG, our issue would have been resolved 95 years ago... Just because we don't see eye to eye or agree with each other's every view, it does not mean we can't voice our own and YES, also apologize if our comments were hurtful.. I believe in many things (strongly) but I also have the capability to acknowledge someone else's belief...
Arm jan.. Janine is correct in stating that you are another great writer with great data... Thank you from me as well...
Gayane
Boyajian - understood! Thanks to you, Gayane and all parties
A propos to creating a "softer" image in light of inevitable recognition, changing world politics of the moment, I want to share an article someone else sent to me
http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg317756.html
ANKARA ALLEGEDLY THWARTS ALIYEV ATTACK ON KARABAKH
Asbarez
Tuesday, May 4th, 2010
ANKARA-Ankara has neither confirmed nor denied claims that Turkey's
intelligence agency prevented an Azeri military attack ordered by
Azeri president Ilham Aliyev on Nagorno-Karabakh immediately before
Turkey and Armenia signed historic protocols last year, reported the
Turkish daily, Hurriyet.
I think possibly this shows a deliberate softening of public image of policy. IMO no doubt from the need to seem fully engaged in protocols interest from outside pressure. Anyway, it's a theory. We should be prepared for this phase
The idea of taking a legal action has been floating in the air for some time already. However, a set of prerequisites is necessary.
First, there needs to be a government in Armenia that would be relatively independent, popular, and non-susceptible to an optimal extent to the foreign political control and influence so it, as a subject of international law, can initiate the legal process. Obviously, the diaspora organizations are not legally authorized to make a bid, unless a unified body is created in the form of an international NGO or an NPO that would take up the matter to international legal hierarchy.
Second, it’s a 'chicken-or-the-egg' question whether the legal action should precede recognition by Turkey or should be based on Turkey’s acceptance of guilt.
Third, in any case, the revitalization of the Wilsonian Mandate that was never materialized seems to be a point to start, because legally the Republic of Armenia is bound only by the Treaty of Sevres. All other treaties have been signed either by illegitimate regimes or in the absence of the Republic of Armenia as a subject of international law.
Fourth, the support of the leading world powers will be essential because from their perspective it is not strictly a bilateral Turkish-Armenian issue, but rather represents a concern for a grandiose shift in the balance of power for the broader region.
MR. HAKAN TEKIN TURKISH CONSUL GENERAL IN LOS ANGELES
PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BE DISRESPECTFUL OR COMPARE YOURSELF WITH POPULAR MR. SASSOUNIAN MR. SASSOUNIAN IS A RESPECTFUL , HONEST AND SELFLESS SERVANT AMERICAN -ARMENIAN WHO TALKES NOT ONLY FOR HIMSELF BUT FOR MILLIONS OF MILLIONS ARMENIANS AND THE OTHERS ON THE CONTRARY AS WE KNOW , YOU ARE A BRAIN -WASHED, INEXPERIENCED YOUNG MAN, WHO HAD BEEN PAID AND SENT TO LOS ANGELES TO TO DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES AS (DISRESPECTFUL , DENIAL, ACCUSATION EVEN LIE ) TO TURNED UPSIDE DOWN THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR ANCESTORS HORRIBLE CRIME THE FIRST TWENTIETH CENTURY ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
SIR BY A CHANCE ARE YOU PEOPLE HAVE ANY CONS CIENCE ? OR MERELY YOU WORKING FOR A SALARY ?
AT THE END I SHOULD ADD THAT TURKEY IS VERY LUCKY THAT PEOPLE LIKE SASSOUNIAN ARE NOT INCLUDED IN ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT , OTHERWISE THERE WAS NOT ARGUE MENT WITH YOU?
LOL... soooo funny Jenine...:)
I wish we had another way to get connected... do you have a facebook account?
I still need to locate Gary's daughter's profile...:)
Gayane
This was an interesting article with a good discussion at the end; however, from the outside looking in, it does appear that Karakekin as a person is being attacked and criticized, rather than his ideas. Even if his points are controversial or we are in disagreement with him, that does not mean that he is better or worse than anyone else. In order to move forward, many controversial topics have to be addressed head-on. The spirit of division is the achilles heal of all of us as Armenians, although conversely it enables extraordinary successes at a individual, family, or 'tribal' level. Look at the U.S. example - two political group, two churches, two youth organizations, etc.. To me, an Armenian is someone who feels Armenian and works for the betterment of Armenians, even if they convereted to Hinduism, married an odar (who can be 'converted' to honorary Armenian status :). With that in mind, our number one goal should be two work for a viable Armenian state which means permenant access to the sea and into regional projects, which will eventually lead to a reversal of the mass emigration over the past several years. Karekin is correct in that our demands will have a higher chance of success if we have a truly UNITED front, because our goals are the same even though our methods on achieving them are different. Finally, as to the Genocide conspiracy theories, even if the 3 pashas were secretly ARMENIAN, it would still be the Armenian Gencoide committed by the Ottoman Empire. Like it or not, the gerenal population, as d-ked as they were, were in the majority eager to carry out the genocide, so the ethnicity of 3,10,or 100 of the leaders is irrelevant, the population would not have supported it if they didn't share the same attitude against Armenians. (i.e. if Obama tried to deport all the Mexicans tommorow with no food or water, I doubt that the average American would be sharpening his blade and eyeing the neighbor's daughter as his future wife). I think we should be debating all points, even controversial ones, such as reparations (which should include a handout of a family tree to everyone in Turkey) - and the means with which we can strengthen our common bond and move away from articifical divisions. Thank you.
Very well said Mr. Sassounian. I think everyone, Armenian or not, has had enough of Turkey's continuous and failed attempts to try and silence people from the truth. They can bribe America all they'd like but it will never change the past of how they systematically massacred more than one a half million Armenians. One fine day, Turkey will pay full responsibility for their malicious acts and soon enough what they did will come back to haunt them. Armenia will have its justice.
A Robert Fisk interview on CTV:
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/armenians-past/#clip293663
Turkish diplomats
They act every where
The same way
From West to East
They pay for people to read every bit
In every newspaper
And invite the person who wrote
And threaten thy not to write again.
They did the same with me
But I never responded
My keen family
Have relative who is a diplomat.
They did with every Armenian writer
Till every one was afraid on their lives to write.
But every one knows them
Especially in the East
Where Armenian skulls are
Still breathing under Der-Zor rays.
Every one understood their shafting tricks
More than they can think.
No body can vanish anything
As far as it is written
Without Blue-Ink
In the Internets.
Historical article from some one,
Who has ignited most brain dendrites.
Continue writing almost every night
What he heard from lost beloveds.
As ARM says, 'Yes, Emmanuel Carasso, the founder of the CUP was Jewish-Italian B’nai B’rith official, Mehmed Talat is believed to be of Jewish origin, as were Djavid Bey, Refik Bey (Refik Saydam), and Vladimir Jabotinsky. Mustafa Kemal is believed to be born to Jewish parents in Salonika. Many CUP members were also Freemasons'. All true, however these people were revolutionaries who overtook the Ottoman Empire and then instituted a series of secret bureaus to plan and carry out the genocide according to their specific orders. And no, at that point, the sultan was not even aware of their activities. The ARF had a very close relationship w/ the CUP for a while, until the CUP turned on them in a vicious, angry way. This may be why key ARF leaders were among those targeted on April 24...they knew too much and were the brains of the Armenian community at that time. Once eliminated, they could not talk about exactly who had planned the genocide...and this information has been kept under wraps for a long time. Certainly, villagers living hundreds and thousands of miles from the center of govt had no idea who actually planned their demise. They were just victims, without knowing why, how or who ordered it. The point here is that when a sinister group hijacks the govt of a major power, they can do major damage. Just witness the outcomes of the neo-cons in the US and the death and destruction they have wrought across the world, all the while emptying the US treasury into their and their friend's pockets. There is a long tradition of this in world history, it was not unique to Turkey or the US today.
Right....people here attack me relentlessly as non-Armenian, implicating my 'Turkish' brethren, etc, etc, etc. despite my revealing my family history, and I'm the one who has issues? Please. The level of discourse here has underwhelmed me, largely for the knee-jerk reactions of poorly or uninformed people who think they know it all. Arrogance about 'common knowledge' is very revealing about those who adopt that kind of position... especially when it comes to the lack of real knowledge or an academic understanding of facts. There is alot of information about the genocide that Armenians can and should learn, much of it hidden for 95 years, because knowledge - no propaganda - is power. Open your minds people, and don't think you know it all because you've attended a rally along the way. There is so much more to be revealed and yes, some of it may be uncomfortable to hear, but the untarnished truth will set us (and the Turks) all free.
Janine, it was a friend who recently moved to CA from Utah told me that story. He was looking for a new church and attended sermons of a few. I know murder is a crime and is once again reminded as the 6th commandment. That is why we both couldn't reason such statement.
Iao, my mp3 player playing on shuffle started play Mair Araks - Djivan Gasparyan as I started to read the part about your grandparents' house in your comment. It was an odd yet an appropriate coincidence. I have no idea when or how the reconciliations and reparations will be handled in future but I do hope you or your family can get that house back.
Gayane, thank you for your kind words and no, I was not offended. I happen to come from an only-in-theory-Muslim family, true, but am no believer in Islam. Yet, when someone makes a generalization I fall into the category of Muslims. It can be a bit bothersome sometimes :)
Gayane Jannnnn! I missed you too!!!
David Z, all of your points are valid. The only problem is that Turkey and the US know all too well the legal hurdles that we need to maneuver to get to justice. They are making sure that the hurdles are there to stay, ex: the US not mentioning the word Genocide or recognizing it officially. Our fight to get them to do so sould definitely continue. However in the mean time, we have offered the Turks plenty of time to sift through their archives and take out anything incriminating, and we are taking a big risk waiting for the US. The US is using the Armenian Genocide as its "stick" in its "carrots and sticks" policy with Turkey, and it may not to let go of that stick anytime soon by acknowledging the Genocide. In the mean time, we should put "individual" and specific lawsuits together, just to give the message that the main legal proceedings will be coming down the road.
Abris, Katia K !
ARF, where are you?
To: Karekin
We all should be more gentle to each other. Yes, including to Karekin even if we do not all agree with each other. That is because we are brothers-&-sisters and we believe in what is right & just! There were traitors, yes Armenians, on 24 April 1915 who helped the Constantinople Police to make a list of those to be arrested. Are we like them? Like the Jewish people say "G-d forbid!" We cannot be divided even if we disagree! W e agree to disagree but remain united for the Hye Tad!
Now, Karekin if you have made inappropriate remarks (I have not read them personally, but have faith in the others here) regarding Jesus...please be man enough to apologize and ask the Lord for forgiveness. If you can't do this, than how can we continue to dialog with you? There are things that are fundemental and needed to happen here. You seemed to have p$$d some people off! Just like you expect people to be open minded...they/we expect you to be open hearted ! You know confession of sins is very liberating! DO IT MAN! Others will gain confidence in your character! And Jesus will surely forgive you!
G
Karekin, I have heard so much nonsense from you I am now ignoring your comments. I just don't feel there is going to be anything worth reading anymore except more things that are misleading and diversions.
SG - Thanks again. You know, since you are a Muslim I will say the following, if only to inform you in case you didn't know. Jesus, first of all, extended notions of murder into the ways in which we treat one another. From him, we learn that it is not just the literal statute that has power and meaning, but something also in our hearts.
Secondly, Jesus himself warned us that many would come in his name who seek to deceive his followers, but that they are wolves in sheep's clothing. He warned us all. Thanks for listening :-)
Armen - have you ever heard of provocation? People who wish to stir the pot? Well, whether it is intentional or not, that is what has happened here and it continues to happen -- destruction of dialogue (except for those who respond with new facts and good information).
Karekin, you are not writing anything in the past week at least that has been worth reading except to mislead, misdirect, and create diversion and chaos here. I feel that whatever you write will continue to have the effect of scrambling with misleading "facts" that don't exist.
oops my last comment was posted on the wrong thread, sorry
Armen, for the past week at least we have been hearing more and more misleading, misdirecting comments that only focus slander on all the Armenian community and also espouse anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. I will no longer read Karekin's remarks because I think with experience they will only be more "scrambling" remarks which have the effect of destroying dialogue and leading us off the subject, stating preposterous ideas that are designed throw a monkey wrench into the things we all know so that we don't really talk about what is real here.
Focusing on helping Armenia in no way is telling us that we are all only full of hatred over and over again, offending everyone in the process, espousing hate theories that are fully preposterous and discredited (which are in fact very bad if they reflect on the Armenian community as a whole - and I believe whether deliberate or not this is a serious matter). End of story.
As long as President Obama - or any other official of any country in the world - does not use the word Genocide, his words have no legal value. As Armenians, or at least my generation of Armenians, which is a little younger than Mr. Balakian's generation, we have outgrown the phase of clapping for expressions of sympathy and pain for the "innocent victims of the brutal killings". As a matter of fact, I am more offended by President Obama than his predecessors, because the other ones were at least blunt in their refusal to use the legal term GENOCIDE that should/would carry consequences. Mr. Obama is not only doing the same, but he is trying to dupe us that he went a step further by words like "my views have not changed" and using the term "medz yeghern".
Please - stop insulting our intelligence!
This is an extension of article 301 plain and simple. There have seen similar applications of it in Syria in the past years where books have been banned, and it's an attempt to silence some of the few places where there is open dialogue, large Disaporas, and fresh memories of the events of 1915. Shame of Lebanon for following Syria's lead, a role model many Lebanese would not take kindly to.
I totally agree with Mr. Beugekian. The Obama statements are insulting and have many problems. Here's one problems with it (it's from this very website): http://armenianweekly.com/2009/04/24/the-president%e2%80%99s-views-have-not-changed-or-have-they/
I am surprised at the lengths some Democrats are prepared to go to defend their President.
Armen, I agree with your notion that one can be Armenian regardless of their religion.
Speaking for myself, I apologize if I offended Karekin or anyone else with my comments on this site. I agree with others and have said myself that there is a place for all viewpoints here. Mature and intelligent people should be able to disagree and carry on in a respectful way. However derogatory remarks about Christ and religion in general are inflammatory, even if it is one's honest opinion. In addition, I find it impolite to complain ad nauseum about Armenians being hateful and angry especially when responding to numerous comments that were neither and that took pains to demonstrate the opposite. Further, when this inconsistency was respectfully challenged, it was ignored.
For the record, I have huge respect for Balakian. His "Burning Tigris" book on U.S. response to the Armenian Genocide is a seminal work. His translations - whether it is of Grigoris Balakian's "Armenian Golgotha" or Siamanto's poetry are masterful. CBS 60 Minutes coverage of the Armenian Genocide? What can we say.
That is why I was so disappointed to read Balakian's misguided defense of Obama's April 24th statement.
Balakian gives Obama credit for stating that his "view of that history has not changed," then quoting from Obama's campaign statements on the topic. What Balakian is NOT quoting is the line where candidate Obama stated the "Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, personal opinion or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact..." Apparently the truth got downgraded since Obama's election.
Balakian gives Obama credit for using the term "Medz Yeghern" in his statement. President Bush tried that trick back in 2005 - translating the Armenian term to "Great Calamity." So Obama goes more ethnic and keeps the Armenian terminology and says it twice... No cigar, Mr. President. Using "Medz Yeghern" to avoid using the word Genocide is simply an evasion of truth - denial in a different form - and it's an insult to Armenian intelligence to think he should be applauded for that.
And finally - Balakian's argument that "If at this moment in U.S.-Turkish relations the State Department does not have the ethical courage to stand up to Turkey on the Armenian Genocide, Obama has taken a step forward in affirming it as president...." Memo to Balakian: Obama is the President of the United States. He gets to SET State Department policy. If we, the American people, wanted Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to set our foreign policy - we would have elected HER as president. We didn't, largely because of the commitments and pledges candidate Obama made - fully expecting for him to meet those obligations.
And it doesn't end with the Armenian Genocide. Obama's policy on Darfur has been abysmal at best. Ask Nick Kristof... Read the Save Darfur website... The sham of an election in Sudan has apparently resulted in a Janjaweed fighter representing Darfur. Seriously? And Obama's condemnation of those elections has been pathetic. Where is Obama's "unstinting resolve" to end the Darfur genocide and bring about positive change in that country?
Look, I voted for Obama in 2008. I so wanted him to keep his pledge. But, he hasn't. Half-measures and use of Armenian phrases in his statement don't cut it. Strong-arming Armenia to accept those ridiculous Turkey-Armenia protocols simply to get him off the hook from honoring his pledge is shameful. And using the Protocol's reference to a "historical commission" as a basis to oppose Armenian Genocide legislation - the same legislation he pledged to support as a candidate - just goes to show that he is not a man of "change" - but the president of "more of the same" bad policies on genocide.
And Balakian's endorsement and defense of those antics is terribly unfortunate, to say the least.
Janine: You are a lovely person.
What I am thinking in regards to Karekin's and others' comments about the Zionist conspiracy is:
I follow the reports about antisemitism around the world published by the European Jewish Congress and, in regards to Armenia, the report stated that many Armenians are mad at Israel for doing business with Turkey; and also believe that Israel does not pass the genocide recognition bill because they were guilty of the Armenian genocide. I was flabbergasted at this conspiracy theory and hurt because I know it is not true, and since my aunt who lived in Turkey after taking refuge from the Russian Revolution, married an Armenian and our family had many lovely, lovely Armenian friends in the USA (one an opera singer, one the town librarian, one a great artist, one a photographer); and none of our Armenian friends were antisemitic. Thank you Armenian Weekly for discussing this conspiracy theory (which I too never heard of before) in several of your articles. Like I stated, this may be a form of denial, where the perpetrator (the Turks) try to blame another group for their crime. Hrant Dink's murderer too tried to blame the zionists; however, the investigation showed that the murderers may have been nationalists who wanted to bring down Erdogan's govt. and wanted to blame the murder on Islamists, but when they were caught, even tried to blame Zionists.
However, even though Armenian Weekly prints good articles disclaiming the Zionist conspiracy theory, people still post here and believe in the Zionist conspiracy theory, so their mind is of the kind to border on paranoia, prejudice, etc. The Russians and Iran are also xenophobic and antisemitic; you may call them bigots.
Getting back to the issue of Israel's acknowledging the Armenian genocide bill. It would make me happy if they would finally pass it so that I would be assured it would lessen antisemitism in Armenia. However, we all watch what Israel is doing and I also read parts of Yair Auron's book (a very good book) about Armenian genocide denial in Israel; and I have also followed discussion about the issue on the internet. I think this year more people brought up the issue in the Knesset; you certainly have many friends who want to pass it; and some in the controversial Yisrael Beiteinu party did not (note: this party is controversial).
The problem for Armenians is Turkey; the fact that the USA and Israel do business with Turkey. Also, a problem for the USA is Russia, the fact that Armenia is allied with Russia (the "Great War" for power and influence btw Russia and the USA in the region).
I was worried about the Armenian genocide survivors in Lebanon as well as my relatives in Israel after the Lebanon war in 2006.
I hope that a peace agreement can be reached with Syria and that Iran can lose its nuclear ambitions, and another war will not hurt more Lebanese and Israelis. I hope these Zionists conspiracy theories don't lead people in Lebanon and in the Palestinian terroritories to start a new war against Israel, from a hatred that has no basis in reality. But I guess that happens, people will start fights for real or imaginary reasons.
As for Turkey and Armenian genocide denial; it seems not everyone is happy with Obama or with Israel. This may lead to antisemitism among Armenians; I hope I could make you realize that Israel's dealing with Turkey has nothing to do with its being guilty of plotting against Armenians. Of course, thank you, Armenian Weekly, for the fine articles. I would hope they educate some people about this issue and prevent antisemitism in the Armenians. As Abe Lincoln said, "you can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time." However, it looks like some of the people will be fooled all of the time (or that some people will remain bigots or members of hate groups).
Actually, Israel's not passing the Armenian genocide bill may still be the core of the problem in Armenia-Israel relations; and I am hoping that this issue will be resolved in the future.
It is dangerous because, as many stated, not acknowledging the Armenian genocide, may make it easier in the future for people, like Ahmadinejad, to deny the Holocaust; and that indeed would be a tragedy.
I hope this conference will make progress towards getting reparations, maybe a part of your homeland back (under mutual agreement and shared powers), restoration of your churches and monuments; and of course, Turkey must state that it was the perpetrator of the Armenian genocide and teach the facts, not denial or blaming others, in its schools; and allow freedom of speech on this issue (all which may help lessen the spread of Zionist conspiracy theories).
I refuse to accept ANY and ALL attributions for Obama's blatantly cynical betrayal of his crystal clear promise to Americans about recognizing the Armenian Genocide. He broke his promise. And many of us will never forget it. I couldn't care less about the list of euphemisms he puts forth and why and in what context compared to any of his spineless predecessors, except Regan. His Holocaust Remembrance statement issued a few weeks before ours not only stated the words Holocaust and genocide but also the words justice and peace. Be my guest and check it out.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/statement-president-holocaust-remembrance-day
Why won't Armenians also be treated with the same respect? Our president must refer to the Armenian Genocide in legally accurate English and also speak about the need for justice and then peace. Anything less is disrespectful, hypocritical and unacceptable.
Boyajian,
My main point is that given our losses in the Genocide and assimilation, it is vital to be as inclusive as possible, given that there are likely more Armenians today who are unaware of the fact who are actually Muslim. The reason that the figures in the death toll of the Genocide vary is because the total of killed and MISSING is likely over 1.5 million, but that figure includes 1/4 to 1/3 of the total who were very young or attractive females who were forcibly married and / or converted. In my family alone, there were 14 LOSSES, but it included 4 women who were 'married' to Kurds and Turks in 1915 (i.e. I have 25-30 second cousins who are partly Armenian part Turkish / Kurdish and who are Muslim - some have gone on to become generals in the Turkish Air Force). I think reparations should also focus on education this group about their origins and they should be free to choose the religion of their choice, once they are fully informed. Incidentally, my parents met some of their first cousins and even took them to an Armenian church but they chose to stay with the religion they were raised in, even though their mother 'convereted' at the age of 16. To me, if Turks are sincere, they should DESIRE to implement justice and essentially, recognize the terrible actions of their forebears (remember 1915 is not 2010 - with life expectancy at 40 years of age, and death even from pneumonia or appendicitis was >90% - life had much less value) and by necessity, make our nation whole. An apology empty of anything tangible is insincere. If someone is genuinally sorry for doing something, they will want to make it up to you, both in personal and national terms. If I crash my friend's car, and say 'sorry' but don't offer to pay - it is clearly insincere, to give a trivial example. The Turks can utilize any word they like, but the concept of apology and reperations does not change at all we call it race extermination, wholesale ethnic cleansing, Medz Yeghern, or the proper term, the Armenian Genocide. Thanks
Armen K, interesting points, especially about reparations. Glad we are talking in dialogue here on relevant subjects
I wonder if the armenian diaspora in usa could submit the same sugegstions to the american government for land reparations in favor of the native americans whose lands were literally captured by white men came from across the ocean.
Land, Reparations and Restitution - Let's start with a down payment of Nakhichevan, Arart, Ani, Kars, Artvin, Ardahan, Hopa, and Erzurum; then we can negotiate.
Mr. Sassounian you write on behalf of our voiceless martyrs and empower Armenians worldwide to continue our fight for justice. We cherish your devotion and continue to build on our communities accomplishments.
Like many genocide deniers before him, Mr. Tekin's baseless accusations are futile attempts to undermine Armenian American writers and silence them from revealing the truth. It is exactly this sort of unsubstantiated personal attacks that are still sadly used in Turkey today to silence and ultimately extinguish the voices of truth telling citizens. Mr. Tekin will learn very quickly that objective facts and evidence based argumentation trump hate propaganda and ad hominem attacks.
Obama and his ilk of genocide denying sympathizers know very well the consequences of uttering the legal truth about the Armenian Genocide. They know that with truth comes the swath of Western Armenian lands that rightfully belong to us under international law signed and sealed by good ol President Wilson. Katia, I agree with your sentiments entirely. Restoration of land and property should be the beginning of Turkey's atonement process. This process must begin through legal channels and cannot be held hostage by the republic that amassed our countryman's stolen wealth through rape and murder.
Hye dserooke tsoobe tserin lalov khentroomer "Hayreniki azadootyun desnel" yev april.
A very intriguing analysis Dr. Theriault.
There seems to be a perception among scholars who examine the Armenian case for reparations that redress for the period of the actual Genocide is adequate. However, when thriving for lasting regional peace and genuine reconciliation it is important to emphasize that the Armenian Genocide is a crime composed of two distinct stages: the genocide phase itself (1915-1923) and the denial time-line (1923-Turkey's acknowledgment).
I believe many would agree that this "denial time-line" continues to inflict a significant toll on Armenia and the Armenian Diaspora to this very day. Surely, this second phase of deliberate state sanctioned genocide denial must also be properly acknowledged and accounted for when developing a comprehensive reparations package.
Perhaps the Armenian Genocide Reparations Study Group (AGRSG) would also consider incorporating this argument into their proposals report.
Armen,
I agree with Janine and Boyajian full heartedly.
We have repeatedly told Karekin that his thoughts and statements/comments were made to stir the pot... and we repeatedly told him that Armenians are not an agry and hateful mobs but it seemed like Karekin permanently closed his eyes and ears to us and our comments........As we said in the past, Karekin is definitely an enigma... and to this day he never replied to numerous questions that many of us asked about if he shares the same passion, brotherly love and friendship/respect, to forget and forgive, to have patience for each other with Turks on Turkish sites... No reply.. No peep out of him...What does that tell us???? One thing and one thing only: Karekin (no matter how much we may think he is working for the betterment of Armenia) will never have the successful track record that he is soooo passionately tries to shower us with.. if he continues the bashing of his fellow Armenians... Not going to happen...
He is and will remain the black sheep in my book.. I am sorry.. (even though he definintely frustrated alot of us, listening to Gary M's advice, I will continue to love him as my fellow Armenian but I am not going to accept his insults and misguided comments).. He has done too much damage and continues to do so (as he posted some new comments that are just ...agghhhh...frustrating).... for us to take him seriously...
Gayane
If our goverment was formed by including my Katia K jan, Boyajian, ARM, Karo, Darwin, Papken, Gary M and my Janine jan... among other strong and intelligent individuals who posts on these sites, we would have been a much better place now...
Astvats jan... inch klini.. bless these individuals for their wit, passion and patriotism...
Gayane
WOW.. very impressive..
I hope to God that this draft truly makes way to more strable and positive outcome..
Thank you Dr. Theriault for sharing your article with us...
Gayane
Every Armenian and non-Armenian must protest the decision. Zartir Vortyag today, what's next..... offending a small number of diplomats in Lebanon, how about the Lebaneze Armenian community.... This can be jusst the beginning of similar unfair actions. Lebaanese Armenians are and have been loyal and productive citizens of that country and have played a major role in what Lebanon is today.
Dear Sabatyan
I was reviewing your article, I could not understand last paragraphs.
What the Irish to do with Turkish and Armenians.
I beg to differ a bit...respecting all comments above.
I wish to brign to attn: that these must be prioritized.
1.As famous French historian-activist Yves Ternon(last year about this time ) in Paris addressed to an Armenian gathering,ending...and I quote"PARLEMENT A PARLEMENT" simples enough -his suggestion that is-that before we can proceed further,we should gain moment with our CAUSE/CASE at as manuy more Parliaments of different Governments as possible-even local governments,such as in the U.S. (states).You see in Europe there are such as well,for instance in U.K the Welsh one ,in Spain the Cataluña´s Parliament(both recognized the Armenian Genocide..)
2.Then,even before taking steps-we cannot anyhow-claiming Land and property,riches etc.,from a totalitarian Government,to say a mildly-we should concentrate on another ISSUE,which is much more feasible.That of "Blood Money",which has precednet(s) why in plural? because I am not referring only to the Jewish Claim which was lodged against Germany and still being paid..but also the minor Armenian ones.Those that a group of Armenian attorneys painstakingly prepared,lodged with the Life insurance companies and retributions were realized...
If we insist upon Land claim at this stage-as wexplained above- the answer will be a "rotundo" round NO.Thence, prudence ,caution and diplomacy are requirements that we must have in view dealing with an ADVERSARY(viz.I do not use other word)that is ,has been and ma continue to be an Adamant denier.
best,
G.P:
DAVID Z AND KATIA NO DOUBT STAND OUT AS VERY CAUTIOUS PERSONS.
NO DOUBT HARUT IS DOING A GOOD JOB.MY THIS POST IS NOT TO AGAIN UPHOLD HIM AS OUR EX-OFFICIO SPOKESMAN,BUT TO DEAL WITH THE SUBJECT MATTER.
THE PROTOCLS TO BEGIN WITH-AND I AM NON-PARTISAN,MORE CLEARLY AM NOT A N ARF MEMBER...BUT LATTER WHEN THE PROTOCOLS WERE JUST BEGINNING MENTIONED,THE 3 RA MINSTRES(ALL arf) RESIGNED.they understood what wasthoroughly an erroneous actON OUR BEHALF...
FOR ,ACTUALLY WE ARMENIANS ARMENIA DIASPORA SHOULD HAVE SET FORTH T H E PRECONDITIONS TO GREAT TURKEY...
ACCEPT GENOCIDE-TO BEGIN WITH-THEN LET US BEGIN DIALOGUE!!! AS SIMPLE AS THAT.we did the opposite-here also mark my "we".AS I RESPECT AND WILL STICK WITH ANY RA GOVERNMENT THAT IS GOVERNING...WHETHER MAOIST, DASHNAK OR YOU NAME IT ...WE MUST ADHERE TO THAT.WE HAVE SOMEHOW ACHIEVED A STATE/nation.BEFORE WE WERE ONLY P E O P L E ...WE MUST STICK TO SERGH, TO BOGHOS OR ANY ONE THAT IS THEIR ON TOP OF SAID GOV.UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS TO BE OTHERWISE..NOW THE BALL -ACTUALLY IS ON OUR SIDE.LET US HOPE AND WISH THAT GREAT TURKEY DOES NOT RATIFY IT...OTHERWISE WE WILL BE THE LOOSERS...
HASGCOGHIN BAREV..MEANS TO THOSE WHO UNDERSTAND I SALUTE...
HAMAHAIGAGANI SIRO,G-P
All I can say is dream on... taking history to court is a slippery slope. Where do you stop? Such a childish and primitive concept. The author has never considered the incalculabe harm and cost of the armed Armenian revolts and mass murders.
"The report includes the highly innovative option of allowing Turkey to retain political sovereignty over the lands in question but demilitarizing them and allowing Armenians to join present inhabitants with full political protection and business and residency rights."
This makes some sense and at least has a trace of reality in it. I am persoanlly open to the idea that there could be a generous immigration policy towards those Armenians who can prove direct family ties to Turkey and they could come and live on those lands enjoying the same privilages as any other citizen. I can assure you though that not many Turks will think so generously.
Instead of being terse w/ me for citing facts that have been outlined elsewhere by many historians, you should be more accurately angry at those and their organizations who actively deny the genocide and pursue anti-Armenian activities. Instead of attacking and accusing what someone sees as a 'conspiracy theory', why not go after those who participate in the conspiracy against the Armenians? This has been going on for a long, long time. They're the culprits, not me. Their organizations work very hard against anything Armenian and take hundreds of millions of dollars from the Turkish govt to do it. Call it what you want, but they are accomplices...plain and simple. This just shows how quick people are to play that card, while continuing to ignore the facts on the ground. Wake up people....those who smile at you and pretend to be your friends are stabbing you in the back at the same time. THEY should be the object of your frustration....!
By ignoring the caged canary in the mine, all the miners died. Choosing ignorance over the facts of history is very dangerous. Think outside the box....please....because there is often more information outside than inside. Repeating pat phrases without thought is something done by parrots, not humans. Think about who is actively taking big money from Turkey to suppress information about the genocide, working the halls of congress to suppress recognition, feeding lies to politicians on a daily basis....it's not me, people..it's not me.
Dear anonymous,
Thank you for your kind compliment and your message. You seem to have a grasp of what is going on, and a broad experience of cultures in your life.
The problem for Armenians within the United States has been the lobbying against the Genocide Recognition bills by various Jewish lobbying groups like the ADL. Foxman perhaps is most prominent because he has been the target of a campaign not just by Armenians but also by Jews and members of the ADL who are annoyed that the ADL's campaign against hate does not include the Armenian Genocide in their education program. I think that because of activism (on the part of Armenians and Jews working together on this) it has been somewhat ameliorated but Foxman still minces his words on the genocide. For we Armenians, I think we feel that Jews should be our natural allies in the face of our mutual experience, but this does not happen because of politics. Certainly from the Jewish viewpoint, it would seem that no political expediency should ever get in the way of the recognition of the Holocaust, and Armenians feel the same way about the genocide -- especially from a people who are fellow victims of such actions (and given the famous quote by Hitler which indicated that he himself had the Armenian genocide in mind when he taught his generals to be utterly ruthless). Anyway, that is the understandable perspective. But fortunately, a lot of this seems to changing right now -- and in my opinion that is the reason why Turkey may be feeling the need to change.
In the recent vote in the House Committee ALL of the Jewish members (presumably all pro-Israel) voted FOR the measure. All of them. There has been a shift indeed even if the Knesset is stirring in a clearly different direction -- let us hope it continues. Activists both Jewish and Armenian will continue to work together here in the US for this to happen.
Keep your ‘generosity’ to yourself, Murat. Armenians need not prove ties with their ancestral lands, which they inhabited for millennia as indigenous people in several provinces of Western Armenia. At the times Armenians developed civilization on those lands there was no such a notion as ‘Turkey.’ So, please keep your generosity and imperialist arrogance to yourself and to ‘not many Turks who will think so generously,’ OK? Also, please refrain from posting childish and primitive concepts about ‘taking history to court.’ The article clearly demonstrates that it’s not about history, but rather about a legal action based on international law that gives victim groups the right to remedies for harms done to them. Can you appreciate the difference? Lastly, are you capable of appreciating the difference between revolts for national liberation from the Ottoman rule that were widespread during the final decades of the empire, and not only by the Armenians, but also by Greeks, Serbs, Arabs, Bulgarians, Romanians, and other enslaved peoples, and a government-planned, deliberate state policy on race annihilation? Armenian ‘mass murders’? This is something new in the history. The world knows about Turkish mass murders, but Armenian ‘mass murders’ might be a figment of your imagination, I suppose?
correction, I wrote:
There has been a shift indeed even if the Knesset is stirring in a clearly different direction — let us hope it continues
correction: that should read "even as the Knesset..."
Karekin, as I said, I am ignoring your comments - which IMO either deliberately or otherwise simply stir a pot of hatred and throw mud on all of us rather than engaging in dialogue
Nothing will change my posture on an individual by the name Karekin. I came to believe he is an Armenophobic, utterly xenophilic, and essentially disrespectful person. I’m strong-willed enough to apologize for these and other unpleasant words ONLY if he finds courage and extends apologies for derogating Lord Jesus Christ. Until then, I’d better continue exchanging views with a Turk SG than with a shur tvats Armenian like Karekin. Other offenses notwithstanding, I take insults of faith and sacred relics as a demonstration of an offender’s level of decency and intellectual maturity.
Armen, your point to be inclusive of Armenians who no longer identify as Armenian due to a forced conversion on a grandparent during the genocide is an interesting one. It also highlights the tragic effect of the genocide that reverberates to the present day. There is no question in my mind that once Turkey accepts responsibility for these events, that reparations must follow. As you said, otherwise the acknowledgment is a hollow act. These are moral and legal matters and must be addressed as such, for the good of all mankind.
I don't put much stock in the Jewish conspiracy theory suggested by some. I think the planners of the Genocide were guilty of two of the oldest pitfalls known to man: pride/arrogance and the love of money (and the power that comes with it). This also goes for the countries that aided and abetted and tolerated the Genocide deniers since then. These are pitfalls that all humans are vulnerable to---they are not exclusive to any race or nationality. Even Armenians. For this reason we (humanity) needs to hold each other accountable. Turkey must acknowledge its fault and make amends.
Morality—Mortality in Politics
In politics, does morality exist?
I do not know what else persists.
Alter like waves no one can chase.
Come and go through foggy shades.
Morality, if it can’t exist.
How humans can smell cheers.
Can any soul walk endlessly
In muddy crisscross streets!
Lies exist in their drinks.
Smirk cunningly as part of gears.
To say what’s not to be done.
Is the summit of smiles, seized?
Morality is like fallen leaves.
The tree stays to see the deaths.
The branches weep even in spring.
When summer dawns, shoots new leaves.
Politics if diseased means a real cancer.
Spreads to kill, sound, breeding cells.
The ailing stays engulfing stem cells,
Even before they start to breed.
Honesty if it exists
Never signs to be politics.
The skins need false hands to rub
To weir others, who for truth they carve.
______________________________________
From the book : Politics Play People Pay Poets Proms Pledging Pray
Armenians who have emigrated from the Republic of Turkey to other countries are ‘Turkey’s diaspora,’ not ‘Armenia’s diaspora.
I WONDER WHY THESE ARMENIANS EMIGRATED... Davutoglu should ask this question first!!!!
anonymous,
Two things, if I may. First, the notion ‘anti-Semitic’ should be used cautiously. Unfortunately, the term is being used to describe attitudes or instances prejudiced against or hostile to Jews only. Whereas Jews are not the only Semitic people, there are several ancient Semitic peoples associated by close geographic and linguistic distribution, many non-existent already. Certainly, Arabs, are a Semitic people, too. Second, the notions of ‘Jewish’ and ‘Zionist’ should be used with caution because the word ‘Zionist’ is sometimes used as a synonym for Jew and anti-Zionists may use motifs previously associated with anti-Semitic (i.e. anti-Jewish) views.
This said, I’d like to reiterate that despite the fact that there exists conclusive evidence that several high-ranking Young Turks were of Jewish origin and Freemasons, Armenians generally believe that the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide were Ottoman Turks with the help of local Kurds. The ethnicity of several Young Turk leaders is, indeed, irrelevant. The fact that based on Jewish oral traditions Armenians are considered Amalekites (although Armenians certainly don’t fall under the definition of an ancient nomadic tribe described in the Old Testament as relentless enemies of Israel who need to be all exterminated) is also irrelevant. Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid II was neither a Jew nor Freemason. However, he gave orders to massacre some 300,000 Armenians in 1894-1896. Similarly, the prevailing majority of the Ottoman Turks, too, was neither Jews nor Freemasons, and wouldn’t have supported Young Turks government had they not shared, with exceptions of course, the same envious and antagonistic attitude towards the Armenians.
As a state authority representing Turkey in 1915, Turkish government officials at the time, notwithstanding their ethnicity and social affiliation, are responsible for committing the genocide of the Armenians. Modern-day Turkey, therefore, will admit the guilt and extend apologies to the Armenians. End of story.
Gayane Jan: As you call each one of us
I like your support,
Lucky who cuddles you
Through Clouds, Rains, Sunrays
You're real Armenian human
Seeing every beautiful thing in life.
Accept the genocide...
I feel like that unfairness is killing
Yours, mine and all Armenians
Truthful cells of minded-hearts.
I add my voice to Gyanae
Repeating her soulful phrases
and every Armenian on this site.
Prayers to meet all the writers one day.
My voice comes from far deserts
I hope through clearing grays
Will reach to sing with You
Songs of Gomidas.
If our government was formed by including my Katia K jan, Boyajian, ARM, Karo, Darwin, Papken, Gary M and my Janine jan… among other strong and intelligent individuals who posts on these sites, we would have been a much better place now…
Dear Gayane, I must add
Pray the way you like
and say,
"We will reach one day! "
Karekin,
I think that focusing on the leadership and their background is important, and definately some were donmeh and likely Sabbatean, but orthodox Judaism had cast out the Sabattean sect as an aberration (i.e. it is more like a cult than an accepted member of the Jewish people). Further, if you delve deeper into the actual belief systems of the elite of the CUP, you will find that most were atheist and / or believed in paganism. Regardless, even if the CUP leadership were all Armenian, or Chinese, or Nigerian, or Brazilian, the crime of genocide can't be attributed to 3 or 30 people. The tragic fact is that the entire population, for the most part, gladly took part in the killings, theft, and abduction. If the U.S. president and his ministers and part of the Congress passed a resolution demanding the march of Mexicans through the desert to Mexico, do you think it would succeed ? Of course not, because the general population is against it. In the Ottoman Empire, with the Armenians were viewed as second class and as the terror and degradations became worse WITH NO punishment for hundreds of years, it was an easy step for the general population to take. Also, remember that the millions of Balkan muslims who were forced out of the Balkans were resettled in Armenia, and you can imagine they did not need any encouragement to murder Christians. The heart of the matter was the entire setup of the millet system, which seemed destined to lead to destruction of the second class citizens if the Muslims would not accept them as equals. Also, if you want to investigate other accomplices to the crime, you should evaluate Germany as well as Western nations, who desired the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, and to ensure that it would not rise again, the Armenians had to be destroyed as we were the economic engine and the agricultural base. Despite all of that, there is no doubt that the Armenian genocide was perpetrated by the Turks, Kurds, and allied groups AS A WHOLE. Their parliament and the majority of the population wanted Talaat Pasha's body brought back as a hero in 1943, so there was not a great deal of remorse and it is evident that the population as a whole approved of the so-called 'relocation' program into the sunny Syrian desert. Also, to say that 'the Jews were behind it', also misses another key point, in that Jews are similar to Armenians, in that you put two in a room, and they will form 10 opposing groups and build 5 temples. Even now, the chief critics of Israel are turning out to be American Jews. It is easier, mentally and psychologically, to find a group of evil criminals to blame, because when you realize the extent of the involvement of the population, it is crushing and hope disappears, but we have to remember the era of 1915, in which 100,000 European soldiers would die to advance 1 km on a barren plain in Europe - life had much less value and there was very little communication and education, especially outside Bolis.
Thanks,Armen
Մենք, հայերս, պետք է վերջապես մի օր սովորենք, որ որևէ թուրք պաշտոնյայի հարցազրույցը մի լրագրողի հետ (ում գործը պարզապես ՓիԱր-ն է) երեսի արժեքով չընդունենք, և ավելի դրան չհավատանք, քան մեր իսկ պաշտոնյաների զրույցը մեզ հետ: Վերջ ի վերջո դրանցից ամեն մեկը նախ և առաջ սեփական ժողովրդի շահերն է ավելի վեր դասում: Իսկ «կառուցողական երկիմաստությունը» դա երկկողմանի սուր է. կարծում եմ մտածելու տեղ ինչպես միշտ կա, իսկ մտահոգվելու՝ չկա:
Quick point:
Abdul Hamid was half Armenian, so does it mean that Armenians were responsible for the Red Massacres of 1896 - a 'self'' massacre ?
Also, if the population is being controlled by Zionists, why is it that Turkey sells the Protocols of Zion in the street, and in many surveys, is the most anti-semetic of countries?
A great deal of Turkey alliance with Israel is a vengeful response to the Arab revolt of 1916, which was the most devestating of the losses of the Ottoman Empire (imagine if they didn't lose the Middle East, Turkey would have control of 80% of the world's oil)
I wonder if we could pursue this road to justice and reparations rather than continuously banging our heads against the wall fighting the Turkish lobby and US policy each year attempting to get a Genocide Resolution passed?
We should be proud
That we have Armenian Celebrity
Like Kardashian=Yeghparian
Added to many inventors.
Every one is birthed to imagine:
Hence to dance, sing and write...etc
Every one is birthed for something
Not to insult, hit and kill.
Thus to recognoce every genocide.
Also,
Broadly speaking, a Christian, a Jew, or a Muslim who plans and participates in mass killings is not a true member of either of those faiths, despite the manipulation of a sentence or two taken out of context from the respective religious texts. For example, Hitler and the Nazi leadership were 'Christian' but few people believe they acted according to their faith, to say the least. The quoting of biblical or Koranic verses written 1000, 2000, or 4000 years ago, calling for destruction of an opposing group AT THAT TIME, and using that to justify genocide and mass murder in the 20th century borders on insanity, and is a tragic reminder that we haven't advanced that far from the days of the cavemen. The people who use that to commit mass crimes are psychopaths and sociopaths who use it as a cover to hide the fact that they want to destoy another group to steal their wealth and women, and act upon their own defects. In the end, humanity is part of the animal kingdom, even though we are at the top of the food chain, the capability for destruction is ingrained in every human being, which is why most people are stimulated by violence (positive or negative). All three religions have had leaders who abuse and continue to abuse the religion. The neo-cons, for example, were motivated by Biblical prophecy written thousands of years ago. It is shocking that so many of our 'leaders' use the bible to justify slaughter, in essence they are acknowledging that humanity was wiser 3000 years ago, when they worshipped fire, ate their hunted prey raw, and died from a skin infection. If someone thought 2000 years ago that destroying Babylonia would lead to the final judgement and the re-apperance of Christ and the destruction of the world, should that be used as a basis of geo-political strategy in the U.S. for example? People who do so are similar to pagans, because they are violating the #1 commandment of Judeo-Christianity - which states 'thou shall not kill' and there is no asterisk in the 10 commandments, last I checked.
Nice Poems Tatol
Let Us pray together
For a new day
Blessing today’s happy rays
To reach Us... Tomorrow
And this was today
As we read your stanzas
Singing in our ears
Repeating for coming days.
If we're Lucky
Hence, to stay alive!
Nice Poems Tatol
Let Us pray together
For a new day
Blessing todays rays
To reach Us... Tommorow
And this was today
As we read your stanzas
Singing in our ears
Repeat for coming days
If we are Lucky
To stay alive!
The poem is doubled
please cut from line 11 onwards.
Thanks
Thanks ARM and Armen for your helpful comments
Of course this made me laugh, in a good way
Also, to say that 'the Jews were behind it', also misses another key point, in that Jews are similar to Armenians, in that you put two in a room, and they will form 10 opposing groups and build 5 temples
Yes, I think we have a lot in common :-)
My God, ,Mon Dieus!!! Van,
I swear to God allmighty,that you just took the words out of my mouth..as I was about to respond to this Murat Efendi!!!still dreamin the Ottoman days and ..well you know the rest.Biut Van do not be annoyed by such like comments ..their mindset as yet has to be altered immensely.Sometime ago another -that time a turkish historian Gunaysu-name that is familiar to most here online, in a roundabout "sugar coated" Gula Gula style was attempting to lure us here that we go back there..-to our lands-but at the veruy end dropping so very mildly that your ARE OUR PEOPLE!!!!
No they will not change ,unless something drastic happens,or else by and by as we are doing try to evolutionize them piano paino"yavash Yavash",lest their "Khers" flares up and start plundering this time over the poor k u r d s there...
latter having tasted their 70/80 year rule, as of Ataturk..have now realized who they are dealing with..and will eventually join up with us in their quest for an Autonomous Kurdistan that was grantesd to them at Sevres...
nonetheless I do believe that dialogue with them is a must.Mr. Murat, we are all for it-except one more thing, please try to educate yourself reading non-turkish ,French,English spanish and other language history books.If not Armenian.But even this ,you must be aware that your gpovernment has -it was in Haratch Daily or weekly of <paris just a couple weeks ago..that some young turkish oifficers -even number given 120 of them at Ankaa Military Academy are studdying the Armenian Language.Ask yourself for what to go speak it on the moon? or what else..No we are not slumbering,we are quite awake.Also ,pleae be a bit more GENEROUS WILLYA? LIKE SAYING WE ARE CEDING mOUNTS ARARAT AND aNI RUINS TO r.OF aRMENIA ..AS A STARTER OR EVEN kARS /ARDAHAN A BIT LATER....in not too far future...when your allies really get to know you better...
Case in point when State Secretary Hillary Clinton had a meeting with Mr. Erdogan, after said meeting ,the U.S. Ambassador in Qatar, said meeting is over.your diplomat then participating there, uttered"who are you to judge that meeting is over, then ensued a give and take and even physically entangled give and take,untill those presesnt seperatedz them...these are factoids, from freign press correspondence...
Armen - excellent points!!
Abdul Hamid was half Armenian, so does it mean that Armenians were responsible for the Red Massacres of 1896 – a ’self” massacre ?
Also, if the population is being controlled by Zionists, why is it that Turkey sells the Protocols of Zion in the street, and in many surveys, is the most anti-semetic of countries?
Well, we suspect where these ideas being posted here come from - and they are to create diversion from those truly responsible. Armenian Weekly has posted articles about this too, I think
A great deal of Turkey alliance with Israel is a vengeful response to the Arab revolt of 1916, which was the most devestating of the losses of the Ottoman Empire (imagine if they didn’t lose the Middle East, Turkey would have control of 80% of the world’s oil)
Thank you!!
I heard this speech live, I think it's relevant (wish I could find the youtube link to show all how strong his speech was):
Sen. Schumer, a loyal friend of the Armenian community for decades, said that the truth always prevails and as a Jewish-American he can relate to the Armenians in their efforts to have the genocide be recognized.
"Again I say to the Turkish government, give up your losing battle to deny the Armenian Holocaust," urged Schumer. "When you deny that evil has occurred, it paves the road for evil to occur again." He also stressed his interest in helping Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh.
- from an Armenian Reporter article, "Commemoration Defies Mother Nature"
Sen Boxer, Rep Schiff and many others like Rep. Berman who heads the House committee on foreign affairs -- so many of those who lead the fight for genocide recognition in the US are Jewish elected politicians.
Who or what is the caged canary in this situation?
Davutoglu thinks he will receive an award from the corrupt Woodrow Wilson Center this year. He will be stopped WITH YOUR HELP.
See:
http://www.keghart.com/Boyajian_WWC
I do not think that Davutoglu will be smiling when he reads this:
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2010/05/06/an-investigative-report-the-woodrow-wils
Van THANK YOU... like shanrtagizoum said.. you took the words right out of my mouth.. i was definitely pissed after reading his comment but my anger was subdued after reading your comment to him... Thank you ...
My two cent on this Murat individual... Instead of telling us that we are dreaming.. he should tell himself that .. because if he thinks we are going to be allowed to live side by side with him ... HE IS DREAMING..Murat.. you are dreaming.. for sure... the lands will be returned to their lawful owners and it will be you who will request to be allowed to live on it.. and i have a feeling you will get the boot...
I laughed after reading the nonsense comment.. wow.. such ignorance and arrogance...
Gayane
Moderators and fellow commentators –
At a certain point in this discussion an outright religious insult has been allowed to be posted, and I can see it has understandably enraged several commentators here. Since this article is the most commented one (roughly 500(!) comments), I imagine Karekin’s derogatory words addressed to Jesus Christ might have just slipped moderators’ attention. I don’t believe that their editorial policy allows such despicable phrases. Can you imagine what moderators on a Turkish site would do had any Armenian, or any Christian, would allow a repulsive word for prophet Mohammed?
Several commentators demanded that Karekin apologize for the misdemeanor, but from comment to comment he turns a blind eye on their demand. In one of his remarks he even said that he had ‘nothing to be ashamed of.’
I’d like to suggest to the moderators, and listen to commentators’ opinions in this regard, to temporarily ban Karekin’s comments until he apologizes for hurting our religious feelings. Again, such comments shouldn’t have been allowed at all, but I understand that human mistakes are inevitable in this heavily commented article.
What do you think?
A
Thousands of Turks, Kurds and others were responsible for carrying out the order to remove, transport and forcibly deport the Armenians to their eventual death. No secret cadre of anti-Armenian Ottoman Jews could accomplish this task without the explicit cooperation, collusion and participation of the general population (of course there were exceptions!) who at the very least turned their eyes away from the travesty being done "for the good of the nation". It is conspiratorial nonsense to imagine otherwise.
"Think outside the box….please….because there is often more information outside than inside... Think about who is actively taking big money from Turkey to suppress information about the genocide, working the halls of congress to suppress recognition, feeding lies to politicians on a daily basis…
What are your suggestions? What should Armenia/Armenians do? Be constructive or you are just stirring the pot.
Thankfully, we appreciate the very best things, Uncle Garabed, such as you!
Wishing you a happy 83rd birthday!
-- Your fans
Shat Mersi Silva jan... I got goosebumps when I read your poem.. Thank you so much... :) I am definintely proud to be an Armenian and got to know friends like you and the list of people I provided in my previous post...
Gayane
Sorry Sylva jan.. I did not mean to misspell your name..
Gayane
To: Anahit
Yes, you have said wise words here about apology to come from our brother Karekin. If he doesn't apologize then he should be 'suspended' just like schoolboy!
Did you know that the only 'female' in the Bible is 'wisdom'? Wisdom is referred to by 'she'. Almost all others are 'he'.
So you have now had the wisdom to ask for this aplogy and if it doesn't happen...then we are to let Karekin suffer the consequences! He has acted like a schhoolboy!
G
you guys are so funny. :-)
around 3 million (50% under poverty) Armenians Versus, 70 million Turkish.
I would really like see how you could do what is written above. Please do it :-)
"I am persoanlly open to the idea that there could be a generous immigration policy towards those Armenians who can prove direct family ties to Turkey and they could come and live on those lands enjoying the same privilages as any other citizen."
Believe it or not, this mindset is definitely an advancement, compared with the traditional Turkish view that Armenians were traitors (i.e. if you read between the lines, we had it coming). At least this shows the recognition that 'some' type of wrong has been committed against the Armenians and should be righted.
It appears that the Kurdish experiment and assimilation project from the early 20th century has completely failed, in which 'Anatolia', also known as Armenia in 61 A.D., is LESS developed now than in 1914, and apparently, Kurds are as much 'traitors' as Armenians were. Armenians moving back to our historic lands would be beneficial to Turkey itself, so you would be doing yourself a favor, but please no 200% Armenian income tax this time
Murat, can you name the famous general and leader of Turkey who was initially branded a traitor to the state, who led a revolt against the ruling government, and who was found guilty with a demand for his arrest? I guess winning changes everything. Can you also name the general who violated several treaties with the original republic of Armenia by continual invasion East, DESPITE a signed treaty, because he was stronger and could do it.
If one country signs a treaty with another defining the common border, then proceeds to violate that treaty and invade that country, is that considered legal? The answer is no, but in general, offensive war itself is an illegal concept and immoral in most cases. The bottom line is, no land or rights can be given without Turkey's consent because the brutal truth is that no country will send their soldiers to enforce any ruling expanding Armenia if Turkey rejects it.
In war, for centuries, might and guns trump rights and laws, and legal issues can go on forever, as they could easily argue for a referendum in those territories, and we would be placed in a decision to argue against a referendum by the population in the region which would be a tough sell.
However, if Turks and Turkey genuinally recognize that the Armenian genocide, or mass destruction, or race extermination, or mass forced Armenian death march was immoral and illegal, then with true recognition, Turks as most human beings, will want to right a historical wrong, which can take many forms, but the key is the INTENT to make Armenians whole. Forcing current Turks to pay reparations won't work; in fact, if history has taught anything, is that the Turks become paranoid and move in the other direction if they are forced into anything (i.e. see 1918-1921).
However, if we agree that rules that are applied for one country should apply to another, then Armenia should annex the lands that they have conquered from Azerbaijan, and Turkey and Azerbaijan should be fine with this, as it is according to the 'rules' of war.
Land won with blood or paid with money is NEVER given away just to be 'nice'. If Azerbaijan wants any land back, the Turks should be ready to make a trade, and just as I am sure that Turks believe in the concept of self-determination in Cyprus, they also back the same concept in Artsakh :)
This endless game of 'its good if we do it, but bad if you do it' should be the first thing that is scrapped during any negotiations - Turkey might be bigger, but Armenia has the same rights as any other nation.
They banned "Zartir Vortyag" today, tomorrow they do the same with the right to call ourselves Armenians. Armenian - does not it sounds offensive to Turkish diplomats?!
I did not get any response to my last e-mail to them.. below is the e-mail chain between myself and the museum...
From: Gayane
To: Charlotte Ashworth <Charlotte.Ashworth@tate.org.uk>
Cc: tmwe@tate.org.uk
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 10:15:59 AM
Subject: Re: EX (1) RE: Arshile Gorky- Dislaimer-Not very Promising
Good Morning Charlotte, Thank you for the e-mail. However our concern is not how well the text is written. Our concern is why would a museum have an insert about the word Genocide when the world knows there was a Genocide..The world is aware of the events that took place in 1915-1923.. This was proven to be valid by many historians throughout the world. The stories of the eye-witnesses, the thousands of orphans who were scattered throughout the world, the letters and telegrams of US officials stationed in Turkey screaming for some attention to these matters because Armenians were being slaughtered by the Turks Is not this enough to say that the word Genocide is and must be included in these exhibitions as a true and valid reference/?? Why would thre be a reason to have a disclaimer? Raphael Limkin, a Polish lawyer of Jewish descent discovered the word Genocide. The reason he became interested in genocide was because it happened to the Armenians. He saw the unfortunate and rough deal that the Armenians got at the Versailles Conference because their criminals walked without a punishment. Raphael Lemkin explained that he was influenced by the tragic events that befell the Armenians in 1915 hence why the word Genocide was coined in 1943. The below sovereign states all recognized the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians as Genocide.
Argentina (2 laws,[30][31] 3 Resolutions[32][33][34])
Armenia[35]
Australia Australian State Parliaments of New South Wales and South Australia recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Belgium [36]
Brazil Brazilian State Parliaments of Ceará and São Paulo recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Canada (1996,[37] 2002,[38] 2004[39])
Chile [40]
Cyprus [41]
France (2001 Act of Parliament[42][43][44][45][46][47])
Germany [48]
Greece [49]
Iran [50]
Lithuania [51]
Lebanon [52]
Netherlands [53]
Poland [54]
Russia [55]
Slovakia [56]
Spain Basque and Catalonian Parliaments recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Sweden [57]
Switzerland [58]
Ukraine The Supreme Council of Crimea recognized the Armenian Genocide.[59]
United Kingdom The regional assemblies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland recognized the Armenian Genocide.
United States 44 of 50 states of the USA that recognize the Armenian Genocide[60]
Uruguay (1965,[61] 2004[62])
Vatican City [63]
Venezuela [64]
After all the evidence and history backing it, why would there be a need to have an insert for this word unless someone is dictating you to do so. I understand you have a duty to the museums officials; however the duty to treat history as is should be above everything and everyone. Thank you and looking forward to your response. Gayane
From: Charlotte Ashworth <Charlotte.Ashworth@tate.org.uk>
To: Gayane
Cc: tmwe@tate.org.uk
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 8:30:53 AM
Subject: EX (1) RE: Arshile Gorky- Dislaimer-Not very Promising
Dear Gayane,
Thank you for taking the time to email us your comments regarding the insert included with the exhibition guide for Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective. I am very sorry to hear that the content upset you. I am equally sorry that you do not feel that the response that we have been sending addresses all your points.
The statement does not deny the Armenian genocide, but clarifies the terms used in the wall texts. No offence is intended in stating the findings of either the British Government and the European Parliament.
I am very sorry once again if the statement caused you any upset, we treat your views very seriously and, in touching upon these very difficult issues, there was no intention to cause offence.
Yours sincerely
Charlotte Ashworth
Charlotte Ashworth
Information Manager | Tate Modern
0207 401 5179, 07816 138 908
From: Gayane
Sent: 02 May 2010 07:26
To: Charlotte Ashworth
Subject: Arshile Gorky- Dislaimer-Not very Promising
Good Evening Tate Gallery officials/Charlotte Ashworth, I am writing you with great dissapointment in regards to the Arshile Gorky's write up; which brings into question the factuality of the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians between 1915-1923. Professor Gregory Stanton (Immediate Past President of the International Associations of Genocide Scholars) wrote in his letter dated 4.22.10......and I quote
"It has come to my attention that the Tate Gallery has responded to massive pressure from the Turkish denialist lobby and has posted a disclaimer about the use of the term “genocide” in the materials accompanying the Tate’s excellent Arshile Gorky exhibit.
As the immediate past president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars (the major body of genocide scholars in the world), founding President of Genocide Watch, and Professor of Genocide Studies and Prevention at George Mason University, I must request that the disclaimer be immediately removed from the exhibit. It contains statements that are untrue. It is beneath the dignity of the Tate Gallery to succumb to the pressure of genocide deniers for any reason."
I, along with many of my fellow Americans and Armenians join Professor Stanton and demand that this disclaimer is removed.
You are not only disrespecting the artist's memory but also the memories of 1.5 million lost souls. Your actions are no less barbaric and heartless than those Ottoman Turks who murdered and killed without mercy, and without consicous. With that disclaimer, you are putting a BIG RED X not only on our dead but on all those who survived and still living...
Please free yourselves from the Turkey's claws.. Do not fall in the trap of injustice, denial and lies that Turkey so masterfully executes over everyone who speaks and displays the truth... You are a respectful, and legitimate institution.. Do not taint your name by this....Please remove this disclaimer and remove it as soon as possible.
I would like a response and a legitimate one please..Not the cookie cutter response that Mrs Charlotte has been sending out to those who expressed their frustration and dissapointment about this. Looking forward to your e-mail....
Sincerely,
Gayane V.
Armen makes some key points, which I don't disagree with at all. However, as with any and all crimes, follow the money. This is a time honored tradition in resolving criminal cases. The Armenian genocide was a crime of mega-proportions, which is something we can all agree on. Now, let's examine where all that Armenian wealth went. My research shows over and over again that Armenian businesses, properties, bank accounts, etc. etc, etc., were appropriated by those closest to the key CUP members who planned the genocide. In effect, they rewarded their supporters in big ways. Moreover, most of those who benefited were yes, Salonika donmeh who migrated to Istanbul en-masse...to take advantage of the spoils. If there is ever a true examination of the post genocide period, I think these facts will be revealed, esp. since those families are now the richest and most powerful in Turkey...in business and politics....they all got their start based on Armenian foundations...and, to this day, are all still donmeh, which is a very clever way of hiding their true origins, and slipping past those who want to examine history. This is why Turkey has and maintains such close ties w/ Israel, which also has roots in Rothschild's attempt to buy Palestine from the sultan w/ an offer of $100 million.
This article should be forwarded to senators
Those who speak against recognition
As well as British MPs.
Not to forget Ann's Son, 'Barak Obama'.
Lady Anahit
Any one can change his religion
To become what you believe in
But can any one inherit Armenian genes!
I can never forget, when I met Prof. James Tanner who was the first to invent the 'Growth Charts' or as American call it Scales in Peadiatrics in United Kingdom with most complicated mathematics.
He said to me, "I have inherited my broad chin and my math genes from my maternal grandfather who was a banker in Istanbul."
If he did not tell me, I would have never knew that he had Armenian genes, he was proud of, he said because I said, "I am Armenian" without asking my religion.
Please read about Armenian Muslims; Hemsin/ Hemshin/Hamshinli and see their dances in Y-tubes. Inform and write ...if they look Armenians or not.
Dear Gary,
In the Armenian bibles
We don't have he or she,
So our wisdom is a real wisdom neither she nor he!
Our religion is Armenian before Christianity,
So don't behave
Like Protestants or Seventh Adventist,
We should believe in our Domes as our arts and Khachkars
If we like we can add Christianity,
Christian crusaders are many
We don't want to join in their slaying history.
We neither can possess slaves no commit slayery!
Say what Vahan Tekian said,
"Yegeghezen Hygagan genentaviern a Hokvouis"
________________________________________
* slayery: new word in my Glossary to be confirmed soon.
As far as I know, the wealth of the Armenians was taken to pay off the Turkish government's debt.
One problem or obstacle to genocide recognition in Turkey may be that some Turkish nationalists, who were very ordinary people (a grocer, a porter) took some of the money and made themselves rich (some of the richest families now); and they would have to admit to this crime in order for the Armenian genocide to be recognized. I have no knowledge they were Jewish (that may be just conspiracy theory).
The tax in 1940's took away a lot of the non-Turkish wealth; and those who did not pay went to labor camps. The purpose of the tax, it is believed, was to force all non-Turks out of Turkey; but you can see, some still stayed, and at what a
terrible price to remain in Turkey enduring all this harassment. No wonder some non-Turks would prefer to remain hidden.
The editor of Milliyet was a donmeh, made his money from the newspaper; however, he was a liberal and was assassinated under the strangest circumstances.
The first President of Israel was from Turkey (in fact, one or two of them), so this may explain how Israel-Turkey relations were formed in the beginning.
p.s. Karekin, you say you have researched and found that donmehs are guilty of taking Armenian wealth (I think this is conspiracy theory).
You can not really tell who is a donmeh, unless they tell you; for the object of being hidden is not to have anyone find out you are hidden (this may help the conspiracy theorists; and p.s., they won't ever tell you if they are donmehs to help us clear up this controversy - so good luck).
The only donmehs I have discovered so far in my readings is the editor of Milliyet, who revealed he was one; plus the first President of Israel, who I believe came from that group.
And, also Halide Edip's father was a donmeh, while her mother was a muslim.
The mystery and hiddenness of the donmehs may contribute to conspiracy theories, but don't expect the donmehs to come out of the closet.
Would all the hidden Armenians want to come out of the closet in Turkey?
The witch hunt in Turkey goes on however to find them.
Where there is ambiguity and non clarity, conspiracy theory does arise.
You’re so funny, Ahmet, to be unable to get over the primitive thinking that small-numbered Armenians will go head-on with the hordes of Turks. There is much other leverage in this world. And you don’t have to see how we could do what’s written above, we’re already doing this for decades after Western Armenia was emptied from the Armenians. More states and international organizations recognize the genocide of Armenians in the hands of the Turks; more voices condemning this crime against humanity are heard in Turkey itself; and more voices are being raised to revitalize the Mandate that was to be materialized by the Allied Powers after the WWI in regard to partition of the Ottoman empire. Above all, there’s a universal truth that you now seem to laugh at, but soon will face with all seriousness: it is impossible to get away with mass murder forever. Sooner or later criminals will be called to justice and an apology will be given to victims. Watch closely how this is being gradually done and how soon your government officials will kneel, bow their heads, and apologize to all Armenians. This will happen during our lifetime, make no mistake. Until then, go put smiley faces in your comments. They underscore your evolutional level when the civilized world is able to grieve over the loss of millions of innocent lives and ancient homeland. Go ahead, laugh, we’ll see who’ll laugh last…
There’s a provocative and potentially hazardous trend being carried out by some infamous commentators in these pages about the crypto-Jewish/freemasonic conspiracy in perpetrating the race annihilation of the Armenians, expropriating their wealth, businesses, personal properties, bank accounts, etc., and continuing to deny the genocide by the Israeli government as a form of support of their ethnic and religious next-of-kin in the higher echelons of the Turkish state. While evidence supports the fact that some of the CUP members were crypto-Jews (the Donmeh) and freemasons, as well as an allegation that the so-called Sabbatean Jews still hold high ranks in the Turkish government and the military, the massacres of the Armenians in the 1894-1986 and the Mets Yeghern (Genocide) in 1915-1923, were carried out by the millions of federal and provincial authorities that comprised of Turks and local Kurdish gangs on orders by consecutive leaderships of the Turkish State: first, from 1894 to 1896, by Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid II; then, from 1915 to 1920, by the Ottoman Young Turks government; and lastly, from 1920 to 1923, by the Kemalist government. Too many factors, domestic and external, geographical and geopolitical, geostrategic and economic, financial and budgetary, psychological and behavioral, ethnic and religious, intercommunal and societal, many of them not interrelated and others strongly related, have contributed to perpetration of the genocide of the Armenians. To single out the alleged ethnicity of the perpetrators as the sole determinant motive behind the crime is, softly speaking, misleading, unfounded, and essentially provocative. At the times of massacres and mass extermination all the perpetrators represented the legitimate authority of the Turkish State, their alleged ethnicity and alleged religious beliefs notwithstanding. It is, therefore, the modern-day Turkish State that must admit the crime and apologize to the Armenians. If alleged ethnicity and religiosity of the past Turkish governments is so important as to being determinative of the reasons for the past crimes, why would the modern-day Turkish State so stubbornly and shamelessly deny the crimes of the past? Attempts at readdressing the responsibility for the crimes from actual perpetrators representing the State onto some unrepresentative and illegitimate conspiratorial individuals that might stand behind their backs must be eradicated. That’s just another way of whitewashing the Turkish State and attempts at mind-tilting the Armenians. We never know the agenda of some commentators posting in these pages.
He thinks he is something just because he thinks that he have done something.
Pathetic.
This WWC thing is also a great failiure :S What does people think with ??
I just get irritated when i hear these kind of things >:(
Armen,
Forcing current Turks to pay reparations won’t work
You have to have sufficient evidence and convincing set of arguments to claim this. I tend to believe that if paying reparations is confronted with a danger for disintegration of their state as a result of land restitution to the Armenians and the Kurds, Turks would rather prefer the former than the latter.
However, if we agree that rules that are applied for one country should apply to another, then Armenia should annex the lands that they have conquered from Azerbaijan
Armenians re-gained Nagorno-Karabakh region that was given to Azerbaijan in the 1920s by an illegitimate Bolshevik regime and a unilateral decision by Stalin. Territories that Armenians conquered to provide security of the region from constant shelling by Azerbaijan can be given back if the status of Nagorno-Karabakh is determined as a de jure independent state.
Land won with blood or paid with money is NEVER given away just to be ‘nice’
True in case of Nagorno-Karabakh, but is not applicable to ancient Armenian provinces in Turkey that were to belong to their rightful masters, the Armenians, according to the international mandate designed by the Allied Powers after WWI. Agreements were violated by Mustafa Kemal and by the time the Lausanne Treaty was signed there was no such a state as independent Armenia. I tend to believe that these lands would need to be given back according to the international law. Of course, the law, would need to receive the backing of the major power centers.
I agree with Anahit, it is diluting Turkish responsibility for the Armenian Genocide to say that a secret cadre of crypto Jews did it. Even if some CUP leaders were Donmeh, they alone did not carry out the genocide. It took thousands, if not millions of accomplices from among the Ottoman Turks and Kurds. Let's not complicate the issue and confuse ourselves with conspiracy theories. The modern day Turkish State is the direct legal descendant and beneficiary of the Ottoman and CUP government (perpetrators). The acknowledgment, apology and restitution must come from the Turkish State. I am ready to forgive and move on once a sincere acknowledgment and reparation occurs.
I wonder how Davutoglu's daughter would feel if she understood that her father plays fast and loose with the truth? Sad but true that some of the devious power brokers of the world are beloved parents who wouldn't dream of teaching their children to lie, cheat, deceive and deny responsibility. Yet somehow, this is all tolerated for political expediency and even rewarded by some of our most respected institutions. Disgusting.
I wish that the ANCA and Armenian Assembly would do something about this Woodrow Wilson award to Davutoglu. What are they waiting for?
nothing conspiratorial about it....just the facts. there were/are many...Emanuel Karasu of Salonika, for example, was a founding member of the Young Turks, and believed that the Jews of the Empire should be Turks first, and Jews second. Others include Ismail Cem, Ismet Inonu, probably Talat Pasha and even Ataturk himself.
http://www.search.com/reference/Donmeh
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=5&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=253&PID=0&IID=1669&TTL=The_Dönmes:_Crypto-Jews_under_Turkish_Rule
Personally,
I am against any type of 'ban' or restriction on Karekin. I have read most of his comments, and I did not personally feel offended as he is stating his own beliefs and as I am confident in mine, it has no bearing. We do not know him, his life, his choices, etc.. to judge him on any basis, and last I checked, there is a biblical quote referring to this, judge not lest you be judged. I am sure many Armenians in the generation following the genocide questioned their faith as well, because what type of Christian God would allow the first Christian nation to be exterminated and also be repressed for hundreds of years?
Sure, Karekin has raised some controversial points, and no one said the topic of the Armenian genocide is easy to discuss and asssimilate in terms of knowledge, because it forces us, as survivors, to feel the echoes of the trauma they experienced, and to face the immense cruel and destructive nature that exists in everyone.
So, I invite anyone into the discussion, even outright denialists, because their denial doesn't hurt me, it only shows us that the denier is either uneducated, brainwashed by an effective state apparatus, or racist / sociopathic. Either way, it is an issue for the denialist to overcome and to notice that they have had an oligarchical military dictatorship for 80 years with minimal rights - and that they have been told the earth is flat for 90 years, but it has been a sphere all along. If every Turk and Kurd spent an hour researching the background of their great grandmother or Aunt, it would probabl y suprise a great number, in which case, as a Turk, they would have to reject their own grandmother as propaganda - the number is much higher than commonly tought, I believe, but obviously there is no data to back that up, just a feeling in my gut which returns to my main point - if you feel Armenian, are helping the Armenian cause or Armenia itself, then I would include them in the Armenian 'tent' even if they worshipped nothing or were into fire worship; Their worship of fire is irrelevent to me, as long as they want to help their fellow Armenian. To me, the number #1 issue - and the rea l tragedy of the Genocide was the loss of the the children and grandchildren who never were and the grandchildren and children of the abducted, who deny the genocide, and in essence denying the source of their existence. Repartions will only follow after the population a little more aware that the CUP was not carrying out a 'heroic' defense against mass Armenian rebellions, but were killing innocent civilians, as a GOAL. Recognition will come only when the generals and leaders in the Army start believing what is in their own militray documents, and pass a new article 3o1, where insulting Armenianness would be criminal
Karekin,
I do agree that the CUP leadership were motivated both by greed and dreams of a running half the Asian continent, however, the majority of the wealth was in Bolis, which had the lowest mortality rate. Indeed, one wonders how the enigmatic Gulbenkian was carrying out surveys in the East in 1915! Surely, he would have been target #1, but the level of racial and religious hatred increased exponentially the further east you travelled from Bolis - the survival rate was a 35% from the 'relocation' programs in the West but 5% in the east.
Also, the areas that Armenians lived in before are for the most part, especially in the east, almost the same as 1914. It is difficult to transition from a mountain nomadic tribal agha to an investment banker or physician, apparently, as all the areas in which Armenians were destroyed are some of the most underperforming in the world, relative to their natural wealth. There were more colleges in 1914 than in 2010. If money was the main motivator, you would want to enslave your merchants and tax them (the Ottoman way) because killing a jeweler, and taking over his store with no knowledge of the profession / no education / no literacy is a recipe for disaster. Simple jealousy and hate as well as a unique combination of looking up and looking down on the Armenians where the chief culprits. The jealousy came in with the abduction of the women and children because even in the dked villager's mind, they hoped that injecting some Armenian 'blood' into the family would elevate them in some manner - which is unlike most other genocides. Indeed, even n Turkey today, if you look at the pictures of some of their intellectuals, professionals, etc.. I would suspect that a grandmother was Armenian by birth, who likely taught her half Turkish children the value of education, etc..
Finally, I think divisions among Armenians exacerbated the situation, because the Ottoman Empire was like a rabid dog in those days, which should either be confronted with all your energy to destroy it, or which you have to run away from. For the Turks, Armenians were second class conquered people, no matter what the constitution said or what Europeans thought. In that mentallity, they expected complete obedience, like a slave, and in that mentality, which is alien to Armenians due to our history, a conquered people could be dealt with in any manner they felt like, and during the era of the Sultan, didn't he technically own all the land, the goods, and the people and like any owner, could do as he wished? Most Turks who defend the genocide do so without recognizing that a major source of their denial is this view of conquerer / conquered which persists today
Gary, Sylva is right regarding the neutral pronoun with respect to God but we do pray "Our Father..." As far as the gender of "wisdom" I will have to check in church tomorrow.
Van,
Thank you for taking time to respond to the comments.
My emphasis should have been on FORCING, as a study of Ottoman history will show you that in general, they will give up a great deal of land and wealth rather than be perceived as being forced into a decision (even if it is the correct decision), which is unlike the West, in which decisions can be influenced by pressure in a positive way; among Turks, it has the opposite effect - even today, the more the U.S. pressured Turkey to sign the protocols, the more they decided that Azerbaijan should have a veto in their foreign policy. Also, they would rather keep a small chunk of a small island as the TRNC even if it costs them EU entry. The only way to force Turkey to make reparations is an invasion.
I disagree about giving back any land for security guarantees, which over there are pretty worthless, and I think it was a poor negotiating tactic from the start to even mention the possibility of evacuation those lands. Given the massive territorial losses that Armenians have experienced at the hands of the Turkic race in that region, as well as the human losses, to me it is a form of involuntary or forced! reperation. The only way even an inch should be given back is if genuine acknowledgement and reparations for the Genocide takes place, or if there is a TRADE among equals. I am always shocked to hear Armenians mention vacating any land that we won through sacrifice. Further, evacuating those lands will look weak in the eyes of Turkey and Azerbaijan. Might is right, and democracy doesn't exist over there and human rights are a fantasy. They are talking to Armenia now because Armenia won the war. Do you think they would evacuate any regions if they took over N. Armenia? Of course, history is critical, but playing devil's advocate, they could just as easily say this was Ottoman lands for 700 years, etc.. which is why law and reason seldom work over there, but standing at an outpost with weapons is the only language they understand and no actions have shown otherwise for 700 years of Turkic rule
On the past 2 April 24ths, since his election to office, Obama did reiterate that his opinions were on the record, and used the word Medz Yeghern, referring to the Armenian Genocide.
A way to interpret this is that President Obama is trying to emphasize the difference between his personal opinion before and after his election to presidency (recognizes the Genocide) and his position as president (doesn’t). The reason being, as covered by the Media, the importance of Turkey’s role in ushering peace, especially in the Muslim world.
Why ?
Restore his image (and /or, consecutively);
Regain the confidence of the Armenian Americans;
Give them hope for the near future, especially if he’s reelected;
Get their votes in the next presidential campaign;
Convince Armenia to sign the protocols.
Expressions of discontent about this year’s declaration by President Obama on April 24 from diplomats in Turkey may as well be a façade.
This interpretation, unfortunately, puts the argument, “Obama’s approach affirming the Genocide takes things further than any president has,” to rest. It gives future candidates (including himself) and presidents a justification to maneuver Armenian American citizens’ votes. In other words, nothing has changed.
"Forcing current Turks to pay reparations won’t work
You have to have sufficient evidence and convincing set of arguments to claim this"
Here is one: It will never happen under any circumstances...
Correction: Gary I meant to say that the Armenian Bible is gender neutral with respect to the Holy Spirit.
Thank you, Anahit & anonymous...
Anonymous - my great grandfather owned a dry goods store with a Turkish partner in Kharpert (now near El Azig). When the soldiers came for him (he had meetings in his house), his mother went to the partner and said, "If you wanted the key to the store you could just have asked for it." Great grandfather was tortured to death - this man got the store, plus my grandmother and her little brother. Fortunately my grandmother and her brother ran away to the orphanage to be with the other Armenian children. Great grandfather's partner was NOT Jewish (no surprise there, eh?)
Sadly, justice and international law have never successfully worked to the benefit of most oppressed peoples around the world, largely because governments and states strive to preserve the status quo, and work to prevent any disruption that might alter a state of civility or their positions of power. While borders can change, this rarely happens in times of peace and only come about after prolonged periods of war, death and destruction. While Van is technically correct and I agree w/ him, I also see the point of view of those who say (and realize) you cannot turn back the clock to 61 AD. As they say in every courtroom, possession is 9/10ths of the law. Turkey has owned Anatolia and western Armenia for 1000 years now. Shouldn't we get used to it? The idea that Armenia might someday regain its ancestral lands in Anatolia might sound noble and romantic, but under today's realities (yes...the combo of 70 million Turks and Kurds who live there), seems far-fetched. Much better to work on developing a symbiotic friendship w/ everyone who borders Armenia, including Turkey, with the hope of improving the lives of those who live in Armenia today. To continue to act solely on behalf of an outdated notion of hai tahd seems a bit nostalgic and selfish to me, especially when real, live people are suffering there every day from poverty, illness, lack of work and worse...lack of hope. Giving Ani back to Armenia would be truly wonderful, but it's not going to feed, clothe or keep people warm during icy cold winters. Their pain should be your pain.
john, i read this http://www.keghart.com/Boyajian_WWC & sent emails from the bottom of the article so let's get going & also where is the ANCA in this & Why hasn't it said something?
okay I couldn't resist reading the short one - but I'm not going to bother with the link. Just want to respond to this
nothing conspiratorial about it….just the facts. there were/are many…Emanuel Karasu of Salonika, for example, was a founding member of the Young Turks, and believed that the Jews of the Empire should be Turks first, and Jews second
kind of like some bolsahyes who will do anything to put the blame off of the Turkish identity for this crime and throw mud on the Armenian community
Armen K,
The issue is fundamentally different from whether you, or anyone else, for that matter, personally felt offended by Karekin’s beliefs that he’s free to state or whether you may be confident in your own beliefs.
The issue is that, based on editorial policies of this website, insults of someone’s faith or religious relics are prohibited. This is the most commented article and I sense moderators could have overlooked a disgraceful remark by Karekin: “[Jesus is] some carpenter from Nazareth with his magic tricks.” You personally may not feel offended by this despicable phrase, but many commentators here, who consider themselves followers of Jesus Christ, did feel offended. When they demanded an apology from Karekin, he hid his head in a hole and at one instance replied that he ‘had nothing to be ashamed of.’
Now, I presume you post from a part of a civilized world. How many times have you seen in the West that insulting religious feelings goes without impunity?
Karekin’s controversial points that reflect upon his beliefs were argued against in these pages at length, but the one insulting our Lord and Savior was outrageous. If he were a bit more compassionate and erudite, he’d understand at the time of making such a remark that it might be perceived not as his personal belief, but, rather, as an outright insult. Therefore, ‘judge not lest you be judged’ is, I’m afraid, not applicable here. Noone judged him for his beliefs re: genocide and related subjects. He’s accused for insulting the religious feelings of others.
I am sure many Armenians in the generation following the genocide questioned their faith as well, because what type of Christian God would allow the first Christian nation to be exterminated and also be repressed for hundreds of years?
How can you be sure? When a calamity strikes us or a disaster is befallen us, causing grief and sorrow, Christians are taught to believe that God wants to open our eyes and lead us to something more valuable, even through cruel things. Being an atheist for the most of my life, I experienced a tragedy in my life, after which I’ve become an ardent believer in God and in salvation through Christ. And my lofe has changed cardinally since then. My grandparents, who were tortured and sent to Syrian deserts, miraculously survived and always thanked God for not allowing the whole race to perish. Besides, you seem to forget that Satan strives to become the ruler of this world and calamities are not necessarily the works of God. Deliverance from them is the work of God. ‘And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.’
Cheers,
A
Armen,
I believe your response was addressed to me, not Van. But thanks, anyway. I tend to believe that forcing can be multi-faceted and multi-dimensional, and I don’t think that an invasion is the only way to force Turkey to make reparations. Besides, invasion by whom? I hope you didn’t mean the Armenians?
You misread my point on giving back any land around Nagorno-Karabakh. I stated regions surrounding Artsakh could be given back for recognition of Artsakh as a de jure independent state, nor for security guarantees.
Standing at an outpost with weapons… Please elaborate: who’s going to be standing and with what weapons? You don’t really mean the Armenians, do you?
For once I agree with you. Your kind is more about theft and rape and murder rather then truth lasting peace or even justice. That is why the term "sick man of Europe" comes to mind!
I'm not quite certain he can read.
Dear Henry Thieriault
As a human right activist focussing on Turkey and as a student of the debate on the Armenian genocide I like your universalist approach.
I agree that the ittihadists in 1915committed a crime punishable by existing international treaties and - more obviuously - existing Ottoman laws. However, more people today than before are uncertain about the facts supportiung the thesis of genocide intent, particularly after Guenter Lewy’s book. So those who want justice for Armenians should be stronger in their arguments and supply their argumentation with the following starting point: 1) the admissions by Talat Pasha, more or less repeated by Parliamentary speaker Omer Izgi in the 2001 publication ”The Armenians in the late Ottoman periode” (ed Ataov) that one did too little to punish those who massacred Armenians, and that the omission even was part of a policy not to antagonize Kurdish tribes, 2) recent research confirming this in spite of Turkish traditionalists who insist with Kamuran Gurun that 1300 perpetrators were punished,(actually only a few in Greater Syria were punished, but no one in the areas where the majority of the massacres took place), and then add your point 3) that Armenian property obviously were stolen and should be compensated for.
Unfortunately we now see both in the US House Panel and the Swedish parliament voting that genocide resolutions may pass with very few votes. Is it not better to launch the political agenda with a text closer to the German Bundestag resolution of 2005 which simply asks Turkey to go into the black spots of their history with reference to the Armenians, and which points to the evident responsibility of the ittihadists?
Finally, I was intrigued by your statement that ”….the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide applies retroactively”. I believe you are in disagreement with the standard work on the matter, Schabas’ “Genocide in International law”. I also heard two lectures lately, one by the head of the juridical department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of my country and also by a specialist on the matter who works with the UN, and they obviously disagree with you. So it would be in the general interest if you go deeper into this
Yours sincerely
Ragnar Naess, Norway
I think even Karekin would agree that way too much energy is spent discussing him on this forum.
Anahit, Armen, and all, I think that it was wrong of Karekin to make such a flippant remark about Christ and than callously disregard those who were offended and asked for an apology. It was at the very least bad form and insensitive. But as he so famously preached earlier..."You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
Because of anonymity on sites such as this one, sometimes we can all be tempted to say something that we might think better of if the conversation was being held face to face. I personally wish Karekin would play more fairly and be better about answering direct questions. I think it makes for a better dialogue/discussion when we are willing to expand on our comments. I also wish he would give up the bullhorn on the angry Armenian gripe of his. He made his point on this long ago. But that's just me and I have also said this enough times.
The other side of this is that Karekin challenges us to re-evaluate what we think we know. This is good for us! It helps us clarify our own beliefs. Of course, he has a point which all reasonable people agree with: You sometimes need to evaluate your tactics and be willing to try new ones when the old ones aren't working. He might do well to take his own advice on this.
Let's try to get back to issues of substance related to the Armenian Genocide and focus less on the character of commentators. Armenians come in all shapes and colors and clearly don't all think alike.
It is time for us to move on because as someone much wiser once said..."Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
Yes, Karekin and others: you are reading websites deliberately setup for native readers like you, websites that are antisemitic and blame the Jews.
Unfortunately, I have seen a side number of these websites and am horrified at the lies they spread.
I will say this although from what I read:
At times like this when Turkey is undergoing a huge change and chaos, as in 1915, the tendency to blame the donmehs for the changes and problems in Turkey increases. Alas, with the seeming dismantling of Ataturk's elite and the change in regime to AKP, and/or some other changes, which I can not foretell on the horizon, there is much change in Turkey today. Maybe the changes will be better, maybe they will be worse, or things will remain the same.
As I thought, your research comes from the numerous websites with bogus information.
I think that because the donmehs keep hidden and will not reveal their identity, and they will not come out of hiding to defend themselves, they become easy targets for scapegoating by the Turks. Why for instance, do the Turks blame the donmehs, not the Jews who practice their religion in public?
Inonu was a Kurd and second president of Turkey.
Kurd is a Kurd, not a Jew. Now, I see they are attacking Inonu, the Kurd, also. very interesting.
Pardon my mistakes, also. Ben Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, studied law in Turkey and he helped establish ties with Turkey.
Some followers of Sabbatei Zevi (who were not donmeh) may have been in the first Israeli govt.; they were the first zionists after all, messianic zionists, who followed Sabbatei as the messiah. The Jews have had 250 messiahs in their history, not just Jesus, who has been the most widely followed. They suffered so much oppression, they looked for messiahs to save them (250 so far). They looked to religion to save them; so religion helps a lot of people; the problem is we should have tolerance for all religions.
Two points: Turkey is undergoing a lot of change now, and that may be one reason everyone in Turkey is looking for a scapegoat in the donmeh again.
And, the fact that two of the first leaders of Israel studied in Turkey is the reason they established ties with Turkey.
Why for instance, do the Turks blame the donmehs, not the Jews who practice their religion in public?
The most important and obvious question to those who THINK
Kurd is a Kurd, not a Jew. Now, I see they are attacking Inonu, the Kurd, also. very interesting.
Naturally. Pick the outsiders, the minority. Doesn't matter who. Just like they picked the Christians before.
Murat.. continue to dream on you ignorant individual...you think by stating " it will never happen", by laughing and mocking the people who post their comments on this site, you are showing off your intelligence??
All you are doing is proving to us that you have nothing constructive to say and your one or two sentence posts are just laughable to say the least...so i guess that makes you the laughing matter on this site..... just in case you did not realize it by now...
Have a nice day..
AGAIN WE ALL HAVE SOME REASON IN OUR POSTS.This is in spanish(Javier Solana,spanish..it goes "TODOS TENEMOS RAZON"..
WHETHER CHORNOLOGICALLY OR ANTI-CHRONOLOGICALLY:-
1. An enormous crime such as the one committed by the Ottoman Turkey or Kemalist Turkey on Armenian sub jects has not EXPIRY DATE.This according to U.N. Charter,drawn up in S.F. after WWII..
2.Our quest for Justice is perrenial ,untrill it has been implemented ,property,goods,riches etc., returned to lawfull owners´ Heirs..
I am referring to Private personal Property not National territorires...this is the way to approach to adversary.Also on another plan the U.N. has protectrive Caluses as rgds Land mark propertiers, churches monuments etc.,these c an also be claimned to be restored-returned.
2.Most importantly that so far our Legal/political heirarchy-has not tackled is the one that I keep advocating, that of Claiming "Blood Money" much more feasible.Has precedents and if pursued can be won.
3.Turkey may indeed come up-especeially now-that the whole world is goiung through an ECONOMIC CRUNCH..right?
No ,this also has a response-.Just like U.S is about to claim damges sustained by the tremendous amount of Oil spread onto the MexicanGolf..AND THEY HOLD BP RESPONSIBLE FOR SAME...
We can rely on these Mammoth Oil companies to set aside a certain% of the Transit duty being paid to Turkey to be allotted to heris of the Armenian Genocide.Why through these? they can be questioned why they passed the pipeline, they erroneously? or intentionally by passed R.of Armenia a much shorter route.So their Governments could ask them why did you do that?.
çNow that the whole thing is actually based on Financial issues,such as above,we can hope that these MAMoths wilkl oblige3-if pressured by respective goverfnments..
But first thiungs first..."Blood Money"Claim to be lodged at relevant instances an issuue that has to be taken up by ouBAR ASSOC.
kind rgds
Thanks Henry Theriault
For your Soulful Article
That will chant
To clear our rocky
Still bleeding roads.
And I will add:
Armenian Gravity
Armenian Gravity
Should call us together
To be one piece united , as
One Khachkar on earth.
We should see one Sun
Since there isn’t another one.
We should see one Moon
That lights our dark days.
We should possess one heart
That beats rhythmically to live.
To be one human
That walked proudly.
And shall continue
Marching, trust to achieve
With thy creative, kind, artful
Serenade dative genes.
Sylva Portoian, MD
May 10, 2010
Hye, give back what was taken - ONLY? Oh no, there is more due and owing to the Armenians... the losses of fhumans, family members whom we were never t0 know, the losses of homes/lands/culture and more... all belonging to the ancient and advanced peoples of Armenia, lost to the hordes from the Asian mountains.
Armenia deserves much more than what was 'taken'...
Access to the 'civilized' nations - borders away from the Turk - and more - an access to the seas, and monetary reparations which the Turks used
to 'deny' via the lobbyists - millions, now shall belong to the Armenians for the
vile and insulting abuse of a nation; men, women, children slaughtered, kidnapped, raped, set afire in our churches, bandidos torture of the feet here the soles were beaten bloody, to burst... many Ottoman and subsequent Turk
leaderships devised land executed tortures too cruel to mention...
Reparations and long, long overdue and owing - Turks have not to get off with just a 'give back' - Turks reparations shall be from the Turks treasuries, which is the only way I can think of that the Turk understand. Just a 'sorry, here's your lands back' is never enough for what the Turks set out to accomplish - Turks set out and did, elimination of a peoples from their own lands of nearly 4,ooo years!
Manooshag
great gulisor...
Do not completely blame Pres. Obama for sidestepping the use of the word Genocide. As much as I hate to say this, the Turks have outsmarted us again. Their timing was perfect and the Armenian Government walk right into the trap.
Without getting involved in the pros and cons of the debate, the Armenian Government entered into the negotiations to open the border. Since the negotiations were still ongoing at that time, and, again, at the time, it looked as if there may possibly be some sort of ratification, looking at it from Pres. Obama's perspective, I would have also sidestepped the issue, hoping that by doing so something positive may come of the negotiations.
Still looking at it from his perspective; seeing that the Armenians and the Turks were in the midst of discussions and at that point, appearing that something positive may come of it, to come out and use the term Genocide would have brought everything to an immediate halt.
The primary fault, in my humble opinion, lays with the Armenian government for not being astute enough to foresee the ramifications of what they were getting involved in. Although, I am sure that the pressure on them to enter into the talks, from all sides, was tremendous.
Unfortunately we are going have to understand the reality of, in one form or other, opening the borders. Armenia cannot continue to grow and prosper under these circumstances.
The methodology shall be left for another discussion.
I kneel to Pray
I kneel to pray
For who to pray.
To Mighty in Sky
Who hears Satan’s barks.
I kneel to pray
For who to pray
To broken phalanges
And crushed skulls
They are calling me not to pray
They said, we prayed in silence
Scimitars were sharper
Arrived while we were praying
To only known theirs and ours god.
Slayers silenced Gomidas
Who was Servant’s god
Who sang to him and keeled till sigh
Till was insane
And still he kept his affiliations to god.
So I kneel to pray to Gomidas
I can his chorus still singing in my mind.
With him, sang dressed Armenian girls in white
All disappeared from that date
From this world, merciless unkind.
May be our God was an Armenian, hence kind
Could not kill all those scavengers---
Those wanted to drink our blood;
They drunk, but still stay unsatisfied
Want to drink more…
No blood left in us to drink
Our blood turned to soul
Can’t satisfy them any more.
They don’t have kind spirit
To understand,
What means a Human Soul.
May 10, 2010
Since self-depreciating cowards like Karekin will hardly ever apologize for insulting fellow Christian Armenians, but would readily apologize for anything that could remotely hurt the feelings of his beloved Turks who, as he said, treated him better than anyone else in the world, I’d urge everyone in this forum to disregard his comments. Let him talk to himself, hear himself, and contemplate his controversial, defeatist ideas by himself. A phrase comes to my mind that he used when he entered this discussion, addressed to the Armenian commentators: “Look, people, you are all embarrassments(?!)” Well, we now will be by ignoring his comments.
Moderators, since there’s also an element of your inattention, at the very least what you can do is 1) reinstate that any words derogating religions, religious relics, and religious feelings of any commentators here (Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Judaic, etc) are forbidden and will not be posted; and 2) delete from this site the earlier comment made by Karekin (found in older comments here) that contained the despicable words insulting Christ.
A
While interesting, perhaps it would helpf if blatantly religious discussions could move to their own discussion forum somewhere else, as I don't see this forum as being appropriate. Too many concepts become intertwined that really should not overlap each other, and cause confusion for people, as evidenced in some writings. That said, the Armenian church is fully mobile and can go anywhere.... it is not locked in by stones and mortar. (check w/ your der hayr on that, it's true). This is what helped Armenians to move so easily to new communities, countries, etc around the globe over the centuries. Nonetheless, I'm sure Khatchig was able to find a very different atmosphere in Turkey than he may have anticipated before going there. I would like to hear more about his impressions and what he learned, because there is alot to learn by going there, especially for those whose last familial connections w/ Turkey may be more than 100 years old.
@Murat
I would be very interested to know:
What or Who are you actually defending ? Have you every looked inward to find a genuine answer to that question, or is a knee jerk reaction to the phrase 'reparations' ?
Are you defending the brilliant CUP era, whose leaders are not only traitors to the Armenians, but to TURKS as well. Armenian infants did not cause the destruction of the Ottoman Empire through their rebellion, however a group of sociopathic fascist and delusional criminals did. The Armenian genocide ensured that the Ottoman Empire would never rise again and 'Anatolia' would remain a 3rd world country just like the true enemies of the Ottoman Empire wanted. (check a history book written BY a Roman historian during the Roman empire - you will see Armenia in large letters on the maps but no Anatolia).
Are you defending the CUP policies of attacking a country with 5 times your troops during the worst possible month? Was the general of the third army an Armenian?
Can it be true that the Armenians destroyed parts of the Turkish Army but were a small minority in every region of the empire. How can so few people kill so many soldiers - did they have super-powers?
Is it sane to attack Russia in the WINTER with FEWER troops, less weapons, less equipment and less training and expect to WIN? If a general miscalculates on such a massive scale, and marks the beginning of the end of the Ottoman empire , should he be celebrated as a hero? Do you think the Armenian farmers in Kharpert destroyed the Ottoman 3rd army, and was it the Armenians who forced the CUP to enter World War I? Was it the Armenian prime ministers and kings in Europe who baited the Turks into World War I?
Do you think that it is good government policy to destroy hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, who gave to the empire much much more than they received back from it for 500+ years?
Since I am certain you have read about the history of the Ottoman Empire from pro / neutral / con sources from the West and East, can you tell me how many 'rebellions' the Armenians organized from 1400 - 1900?
Is is logical that a subjugated people of farmers, businesspeople, and professionals who were LEGALLY not able to purchase weapons until 1914, would have been secretly organizing a revolution on the assumption that they would be equal to the Ottoman empire after 1 year of practice?
Or, is it more logical that an unarmed and repressed minority was destroyed to make room of Muslims from the lost Balkan war, and the planting of weapons was used to 'sell' the 'danger' of the Armenian menace to justify the 'relocation' to 'sunny Syria' during the 'tranquil' days of WWI.
Does it strike you as odd that the relocation of Greeks to Greece and Turks to Turkey in the 1927 population exchange (i.e. a bilateral relocation program) had a mortality rate of nearly ZERO, but the unlucky Armenians somehow managed to lose 70-80% of their population on the desert march, despite being 'well fed', 'well guarded', 'well taken care of' and well, murdered.
Do you think that it is bad luck to account for the 70% difference or do you think that lack of water, lack of food, lack of shelter, and a sword thrust to the abdomen may have been the cause of this 'bad luck'. What percent of Azerbaijani's survived the 'genocide' against them? I'll tell you that one, it is 99.6% - so apparently, Armenians aren't so good at commiting genocide. Also, of the Turks killed in 1916, what percent were killed by the Russians in the Russian army ?
Do you think the CUP wanted to 'relocate' the Armenians, and if so, why were provisions only provided for 1 or 2 days on a 30 day trip ? Why was there so much LIME ordered to accompany the dangerous 4 year old and blind grandmothers? Is lime a nutricious part of breakfast, or is it used to acidify many corpses at one time ?
The Ottomans couldn't destoy every single incriminating evidence, and sometimes, recording the blatant evidence of a planned extermination is unwise, but it seems beurocrats are addicted to documentation. But I am sure there is a logical reason for all the lime, and I would be grateful if you explain to me what the hundreds of gallons of lime was going to be used for in the middle of the desert ? Why were so many deaths expected, because didn't Talaat telegram his underlings to treat the Armenians well, and do underlings routinely refuse direct orders like that and instead, start killing the Armenians in direct opposition to the telegram, and believe it or not, it was a 'coordinated' refusal, as all these underlings spontaneously decided that massacres were a better idea, to hell with Talaats' intention to 'guard the Armenians well'.
Do you think that a country which destroys over a million of its own innocent citizens and steals the life cycle of its own young and female citizens should compensate the surviving descendants for destroying 1/2 to 3/4 of their entire families or should the Armenians just 'accept' it as Turkish justice and humanitarism and be happy that we are allowed to go to Akhtamar once a year and everything will be fine with some doner and raki, because as you know, in the Middle East, no one cares about their ancestors and honor is not important, right?
What would be the chances that the orphans and women who survived the marches and ended up in different parts of the globe told IDENTICAL narrations about the actual relocation program being a never-located program? Did the orphans in 1919 collude together to tell the same stories, because they could foretell the future and had telepathic powers? Were my grandparents lying when they said their brothers were killed and sisters taken away to become wives? Should I have informed them that he was spouting ARF propaganda, and it is all a lie, and to demand that he tell me where his brothers and sisters have been hiding all this time? I missed the opportunity to inform them that my grandfather was a 'rebel' at the age of three and that everyone knows that the Armenians in Dikranagerd were planning a coup, and I should have demanded to know how he was able to execute the plan to destroy the third Ottoman army from his home in Dikranagerd?
Is it common for a rebellios and revolting population to agree to a march through a desert? Do armed rebels generally agree to being marched into rural desert zones during a period of war? Or would an actual revolting population defy the orders?
I sincerely hope you get true answers to even 5% of these questions, because even if you find the true answer to one of the questions, you will note that the Ottoman empire perpetrated a massive crime against ITS OWN citizens, 98% of which had never held a single weapon in their life.
At a certain point, denial of such an apparent fact supported by so much evidence, becomes based more on lack of education / or too much mal-education but denial after seeing the evidence can only be from:
1. spite
2. fear of consequences
3. delusion
4. approval of genocide as a domestic policy tool
5. fear of Armenian infants, women ,and grandmothers
Thanks for reading,
Armen
Armen K - Christ also taught us to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.
anonymous,
Two things.
Inonu was a Kurd and second president of Turkey
Mustafa İsmet İnönü is believed to have been a Dönmeh. It doesn’t really matter whether he was considered a Kurd or a Turk in public. He’s believed to be a Bulgarian Jew converted to Islam, as were the third president of Turkey Mahmut Celalettin Bayar and the blue-eyed founder of Turkey Mustafa Kemal, among others.
The Jews have had 250 messiahs in their history, not just Jesus, who has been the most widely followed
Jesus was born to the World not just the Jews, and as Son of God he has no ethnicity, as such. Mary, who gave biological birth to Jesus, was Jewish, but he was conceived by the Holy Spirit to be God’s presence on Earth. Unfortunately, the Jews missed the Messiah and treated Him harshly.
Yeah, perhaps it would helpful if blatantly Turkophilic discussions, too, could move to their own discussion forum somewhere else…
Armen -- You're relatively new to this discussion, but several ‘older’ commentators came to know this Murat guy well. A piece of advice, if I may. Spare your energy and intellect on contemplating issues regarding possible scenarios for Armenia’s revival, ways and means of restoration of our lost homeland, reparations to the descendants of the roughly 2 mln Armenians of Western Armenia. Cynical, arrogant commentators like Murat with post-imperialist mentality and no compassion for human life and human values, are not worth offering so much time and so lengthy comments, however convincing, truthful, and well-written they may be.
As if insulting an entire body of people based on their religion (Jewish converts to Islam) isn't really some sort of religious discussion. That is the whole basis of this conspiracy theory - bigoted by virtue of religious affiliation and conversion
wow... Look who’s suggesting that ‘blatantly religious’ discussions move to their own discussion forum somewhere else. The one who started it all by making a religious insult! And look how he’s trying to camouflage the demand for an apology from several commentators for hurting their religious feelings with a concept that they’re being engaged in religious discussions. Another way to avoid responsibility for a wrong-doing…
OK, I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion, per se -- but as a source of twisted interpretation that led to persecution and conspiracy theories of the type we are discussing, I write the following (see next paragraph). May I point out that Armenian and Greek Orthodox (Eastern Christianity) had in its history a greater sense of tolerance than in the West and did not engage in Inquisition - a fact which we must remember and honor. Even under Nazi occupation, the Greek church - for example - including the Archbishop in Athens in particular participated vigorously in resistance activities including helping the Jewish community, for example by issuing thousands of phony baptism certificates ... and many of their names are at Yad Vashem, including those of Orthodox bishops. This is part of the reason why these conspiracy theories outrage me - they sully Orthodox tradition and history. They are not at all in the flavor of who we have always been. And there is a newly renovated medieval Jewish cemetery, showing evidence of a once-thriving community in Armenia, that prove it.
As a believing Orthodox Christian, may I interject here that it is the position of our Church that "the Jews who treated Him harshly" were the leadership of his time - not all Jewish people. In John's gospel this is how the reference to "the Jews" is read by the Church - written at a time of persecution by the leadership, by an apostle who was himself a devout Jew. Indeed, Jesus was and all his closest followers and apostles were all devout Jews. In the gospels, both Jesus and John the Baptist are charismatic preachers, popular with the crowds - crowds of common people who delighted in their pointing out the hypocrisy of the leadership. If you have the Orthodox Study bible, please read the notes well regarding this subject. Orthodoxy has retained more than any other the connection with our ancient roots in terms of our understanding of spirituality. Let us remember that in this discussion. I do think this much is relevant, because this is about historically what our culture has accepted and understood. These theories go against the grain of our history and who we are as a people.
ARM - I don't disagree with you about Jesus as a figure for all peoples, your point is well-taken. Nor do I think you were trying to sully anybody's name - you are a well-reasoned person. I just wanted to clarify one point that has been taken in history and twisted.
Actually, Van, though I agree that Murat will probably not be moved by Armen's brilliant essay, he may not even read it, and he will likely scoff at it what he considers ARF propaganda, I am still grateful to read it. With so much disinformation and pseudo history being put out by the Turks, we need to assert the truth as often as we can. Every lie must be challenged. I am shocked by some of the things that misinformed non-Armenians say about our issues based on the Turkish lies they have come to trust.
I thank Armen for his strong voice. Our enemies are very vocal and most Turks believe the lies and their false school lessons (yes, this is changing in some circles!). So even if Murat is unmoved, perhaps Armen's words will reach some other eyes and ears that are ready to know the truth. Let most Turks and people like Karekin tell us we are ugly, angry Armenians, but we know that although the truth is not always pretty, standing up for it is always right. Meanwhile, if people like Karekin are sincere in their loyalty and advocacy for RA and it's citizens, let them share their ideas of how we can assist our struggling brothers and sisters there. Helping Armenians and Armenia is essential, but should not exclude justice for what the nation lost in the genocide.
To the moderators: I think Anahit's suggestion to reaffirm the editorial policy regarding derogation of religious beliefs is reasonable. I disagree with the suggestion that blatantly religious discussions move elsewhere. We are free to believe as we wish and to express ourselves and our disagreement with others in a civilized, respectful manner.
What is most troubling is when you read the animosity from the Turkish side towards Armenians.
Like it will never go away.
Even if justice and international law not always successfully worked to the benefit of most oppressed peoples around the world, it doesn’t mean Armenians shouldn’t make efforts in that area, in addition to efforts in other areas. Our efforts must be multi-dimensional regardless which area we’d anticipate the positive outcome. It is not only the international law that we can base our demands on, but also the legal Award of the Allied Powers that never was materialized in the case of Armenia, because the Republic ceased to exist in 1920 and therefore there’s no Armenia’s signature under the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923. The state that signed it, the USSR, no longer exists, whereas Armenia re-emerged as a subject of international law after 1991. Now, of course times have changed, circumstances have changed, but at this stage adding a legal dimension to Armenians' struggle won’t spoil anything. On the contrary, the Turkish State’s campaign of denial of genocide will be more affected if we open that front.
Governments and states strive to preserve the status quo and work to prevent disruption that might alter their positions of power when preservation of the status quo serves their needs. In other instances governments and states strive to violate the status quo when violation of the status quo serves their needs. As long as the existence of the Ottoman empire, Soviet empire, unified Yugoslavia, unified Georgia, unified Ethiopia, unified Indonesia et al served their positions of power, they tolerated the status quo. However, as the world is dynamic and fast-changed so are their positions and interests. Nothing's static. If it's true that you cannot turn back the clock to 61 AD, then it should sound equally true that you cannot turn clock ahead presuming that nothing will change in the future. If possession is 9/10ths of the law, then Jews would still be dreaming about having a Jewish state after roughly 2000 years, or Armenians after 600 years (after the fall of Cilician Armenian kingdom in the 14th century), or Georgians after 300 years (after two of its kingdoms broke free of the Persian control and were reunified in 1762), or Eritreans (after their country was federated with Ethiopia in 1951), or East Timorians (after the country was invaded by Indonesia in 1975). The list is very long.
Armenians shouldn’t get used to a misrepresentation that Turkey owned Anatolia and western Armenia for 1000 years now. First of all, there was no Turkey per se to own these lands. In the 11th century AD it was Seljuk tribes that invaded the region that’s known to the historians and geographers as Asia Minor, not Anatolia. Then followed Mongol invasions until the 13th century, and only in the 14th century AD the Ottoman Turkish empire was formed and lasted until 1922. It makes it 600 and not 1000 years. Besides, during these centuries Armenians were able to preserve some smaller kingdoms, not to mention the fact that the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia existed up until the 14th century. If Armenians are required to get used to this course of events, why aren’t Turks required to get used to the fact that origins of Armenians go to the 2nd millennium BC and they had state formations and developed civilizations in eastern Asia Minor up until the 14th century AD? Why aren’t the Turks required to get used to the fact that several ancient peoples inhabited the area long before their nomadic ancestors invaded it?
Today’s realities of the combo of 70 mln Turks and Kurds living there are the realities of today. Tomorrow there will be a different set of realities, and that’s for sure. In the meantime, of course a symbiotic friendship with everyone who borders Armenia, including Turkey, can be developed. What remains to be dealt with is how Armenia technically develops ‘friendship’ with the Turkish state that’s engaged in an ongoing denial of its past crimes against the Armenians and refuses to extend a mere apology to the victims? And how Armenia develops ‘friendship’ with Azerbaijan when the state refuses to acknowledge the right of peoples for self-determination?
As long as the Turkish state engages itself in the next stage of the genocide—the ongoing denial—the notion of Armenian Question (hai tahd) cannot be termed as ‘outdated.’ It can be termed so only if the notion will be put in use even after Turkey will have recognized the genocide.
Recognition of the genocide and improving the lives of those who live in Armenia today are not mutually exclusive notions. Besides, life in Armenia is far from being so murky. By and large, people are fed, clothed, kept warm, and there are no longer icy cold winters like in the early 1990s. Poverty is much reduced during the past decade. The overall picture is far from being perfect, but what’s needed is a competent, public-spirited leadership, set of reforms at creating viable economic infrastructures, independent judiciary, free and fair elections, etc. This has absolutely nothing to do with the parallel efforts on hay daht’s demands for Ani. Even if recognition efforts are dropped, as was envisaged by the Turkish-Armenian protocols, was Turkey ready to open the borders and keep a symbiotic friendship with Armenia?
Wow, a token Armenian included in the list. How wonderful.
Let me restate...no one is saying that there is anything wrong w/ genocide recognition efforts or activities. Go for it, but they should not overshadow work being done on behalf of today's Armenia and its population. They're the ones at risk now, not those of us in the diaspora. The other thing that everyone, particularly Turks, need to remember is not just the number of people decimated during the genocide, but that Armenians represented fully 25% of the population of Anatolia in 1915. This is not insignificant, and this alone left a huge impact that is really quite hard to imagine today. Just think of almost any analogy...i.e., if 25% of the population of the US were to disappear overnight....and what that would do to life in general. Hard to quantify, yet this is what happened all across Turkey, and it held development in that country back for decades. It was a stupid move by the CUP criminals, no matter how one looks at it. The saddest part is, none of it can be reversed, unfortunately. What's done is done. We cannot change that, as much as we might want to...
Thank you, Janine. I understand and am grateful. Of course, the Pharisees and Sadducees are those whom I meant as “Jews treating Jesus harshly.” This so crystal clear for us that at times we mechanically forget that there may be readers of other faiths and beliefs here. Thanks for your valuable interjection.
Is it not abundantly clear to us Armenians that the Turks are freinds with no one? And they never have been nor ever will be? And that their very gene pool isn't made up of justice, firendship, mutuality, reconition or truth? But rather opportunity, confiscation, deception,murder and theft? Just look at their history. Even when or if they ever come to terms with the Armenian mass murders, land and wealth theft, it will be done because there will and must be some greater gain in it somehow someway. That is who they are. This point of view must always be used when dealing with Turks. Otherwise be prepared to be on the short end of deception and maybe worse. Lets wisen up for a change.
ARM - thanks! As always! :-)
Thank you Mr. Mamigonian for pouting out the trap of Divide et impera.
Genocidal-Turkey and Turks are not a position to lecture others on human rights, freedom, justice and democracy.
Genocide acknowledgment without accountability is hollow and meaningless.
Just because an Armenian demands the return of lands that Turkey illegally took away from Armenians by way of genocide does not make an Armenian a nationalist.
Just because an Armenian demands reparations for the property taken away from Armenians by way of genocide (houses, farms, schools, businesses, colleges, buildings, personal property and personal wealth) does not make an Armenian a nationalist.
Also, just because an Armenian demands restitution for the destruction of Armenian cultural heritage by way of genocide (historical sites, fortresses, monuments, cities, towns, churches and monasteries) does not make an Armenian a nationalist.
And, just because an Armenian demands the return of the territories of the first Armenian republic (1918-20) - then recognized by the US, UK, France, and Japan - that Mustafa Kemal attacked continuing with the genocide where the Young Turks left off, does not make an Armenian a nationalist.
And finally, just because an Armenian demands the return of Nakhichevan and Artzakh which was part of Armenia when it joined the Soviet Union, and only separated from Armenia in 1921 due to Genocidal-Turkey's insistence of Stalin, does not make an Armenian a nationalist.
And just because an Armenian demands justice for the two million lives that were brutally taken away from us by genocidal-Turks does not make an Armenian a nationalist.
Just because an Armenian rejects the protocols-trap by genocidal-Turkey with its on-going genocide (1915-2010) by imposing a hostile border blockade, forcing over 1 million Armenians to leave Armenia seeking economic survival in foreign lands – does not make an Armenian a nationalist.
Dear Ragnar Naess,
Guenter Lewy is not a credible source for the Armenian Genocide. In fact he says he uses the Ottoman archives and selectively at that. He also tends to ignore the fact that most of the Turkish Archives were purged. Further Lewy has his own agenda specifically in keeping the Shoah as a stand alone Holocaust. Hardly an unbiased scholar. More recently the independent ICTJ was asked by both the Armenians and Turks to come to a conclusion and they deemed that the events fit the term Genocide and all Historians and Academics would be correct in using the term. However the Turks ignored this completely. There are massive first hand accounts from diplomats to ambassadors as well as highly documented Archives from many sources including the US, France, UK, Italy, Sweden, that all lead to the same conclusion of the intent to liquidate a specific ethnic group, namely the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians which Lewy conveniently ignores.
The problem today is not one of doubt but rather one of political expediency.
Genocide is a crime that has no statutory llimitations. The moral, personal, psychological, and political impact does not dimish with the passage of time. Is the Armenian diaspora "bad" for keeping the genocide issue alive for 95 years?
Apres Armen jan... Excellent post... I hope vor Murati achqa durs ekav after he read your information..That should shut his nonsense thought process unless he has another funny comment to make......
I agree with Boyajian.. we need to bring the accurate facts out as much as possible and every lie challenged. We never should cease to do that...
Astvats togh dzes uj u aroghchutyun ta....
Gayane
Dear John,
Thank you for your answer. First, I believe you have a problem if you try simply to reassure people that the evidence for genocidal intent exists. When people doubt, reassurances of the veracity of certain theses will not convince them. I also counted some 40 university employed historians with relevant competence who doubt that there was genocidal intent. To my mind people with your conviction should argue for your thesis in practice, even if you then had to argue in detail for something you have believed firmly for a long time yourself. It may seem a waste of time for you. To refer to mainstream historians and the ICTJ is easier. But will you convince the doubters, those who obviously must be your most important target group?
Secondly, if the aim is to assist Turks in going into the black spots of their history, I believe more emphasis should be made on Talat’s statements where he actually admits to an extremely grave responsibility: that the ittihadists simply did not punish those who massacred Armenian deportees.
Now I am not saying that those who are convinced that the itthadists had genocidal intent should stop saying this and stop fighting for their conviction. I am saying that they should pay more attention to indisputable facts that very clearly place responsibility for Armenian mass deaths on the authorites of the time. Whether their acts were a result of genocidal intent or not is then another matter.
A minor point: you misrepresent the ICTJ statement because they did not specify any perpetrators. They only say that it is beyond doubt that some of the perpetrators had genocidal intent, and for this reason one is warranted to use the term genocide. But he main point for most Armenians has been that the authorities had genocidal intent.
Then you write:
There are massive first hand accounts from diplomats to ambassadors as well as highly documented Archives from many sources including the US, France, UK, Italy, Sweden, that all lead to the same conclusion of the intent to liquidate a specific ethnic group, namely the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians which Lewy conveniently ignores.
This is not so. Lewy goes through a lot of these contemporary reports. The problem is that there, contrary to what you are saying, are different opinions among them. Secondly, and more important, none of the foreign observers, whether Riggs, Ussher, Mordtmann, Davies, Scheubner-Richter or others, had access to the mindset of the central ittihadists. And this is what intent is about: the mindset of people
So why onesidedly insist on accusations that in themselves anyhow are extremely difficult to prove and ignore relevant admissions by a central policy maker that implies obvious responsibility?
Best wishes
Ragnar Naess
When announcing, "We managed April 24 Well," can True Armenians guess whom Dr. Davutoglu meant when saying "we"?
To: Dr. Astarjian
Thank you for the clear picture.
My grandpa told many a Hoja joke and I enjoyed this one as well. The sad thing is that the peddlers are wasting our precious time and they need to stop exchanging 4 quaters for a $ and instead should own up to their crimes! Quick!
The last statement? davul zurna is all I make out..sorry!
G
'The sad thing is that the peddlers are wasting our precious time...'
Maybe that's their intent, to spin our wheels, then boast about what they try to do and look good to others. Armenians can be very gullible or perhps we thrive on hope. My comment isn't meant to be critical but if we were more like the Jews, i.e. more hard line in a positive way, we might benefit more, not to overlook or underestimate strides made thusfar; it's the second/third generation of Armenians pursuing these issues, while our numbers are diminishing(others know it and can wait it out) it means more work for fewer people doing it.
It's a sad day when cowards like members of the editorial board, continuously censor and then delete everything that I or others may write/post!
I sit here and read all of your comments, how Armenians will get this, how they're entitled to or demand that, how they are always owed something and it's their right to whatever, yada, yada, yada! They love to put down anyone who may disagree with them because they are the annoited ones and are allowed to do so (Hitler and Gobbels made it official in 1943 by officially declaring them [Armenians] true Arryans), and that the world OWES them for being victims, etc! Whew, you just can't beat a Dashnak Armenian at coming up with some real whoppers! No, they talk a good talk about reparations, etc, but deep down they ALL know that this can never come true due to the sheer nature of the evidence against them, their refusals for a historical commission, their refusals to open their archives in Yerevan and Boston, MA, their refusal to debate us in an open public forum with full media coverage, their government AND their orthodox church leaders to even ONCE condone the murders of innocent civilians by Armenian terrorists (from the 1970's-1990's), their non-stop whining, etc! No they talk a good talk, but all they really are are nothing more than frightened cowards, epitomized by their very own editorial board!!
Dear Marc Mamigonian,
Maybe we can start a discussion on these questions on the Armenian Weekly web-pages, as I believe that you got some of my points wrong and misrepresented the gist of my argument. It goes without saying that your suggestion that I have become an executor of 'Divide and Rule' politics says more about your own sense of vulnerability than about my political views.
1. I do agree with you that the distinction between good and bad Armenians is highly problematic and I apologise if I have fallen into this trap. I also believe, however, that I do have a right to criticise ARF policies without being labeled a collaborator of Turkish government policies. What's the point of any dialogue if criticism is answered with ad-hominem arguments?
2. My view on the role of the ARF and the 'Stop the Protocols Campaign' is based above all on the website of the campaign, which -when I read it- was suffused with a belligerent language of retribution and aggressive nationalism out of tune with the 21st century (though mirroring some Turkish nationalist websites). You may challenge me on the fact that I have relied on the this particular source, but after all, this was the official outlet of the campaign, and my description of its outlook and language is accurate. This is not to say that I equate Turkish and Armenian nationalisms and gloss over the victim/perpetrator divide. I do not.
3. Your critique would have been more convincing had you mentioned the following argument, which I expressed very clearly in the article and which is why I wrote it in the first place: The Protocols are 'real-politik' at its best, and the current Turkish government has a tendency to use all such 'real-politik' instruments to defer the agenda of genocide recognition. The 'Joint History Commission' is a sham and will either never take of or be dissolved eventually. All this is unfortunate and not what I would be hoping for in terms of government action.
My argument is, however, that once the borders are open, once more Turks and Armenians can talk to each other, and as I say clearly, once more Turks visit the genocide memorial in Yerewan, societal processes will facilitate the conditions of change. Do not underestimate the impact on Turks visiting Tsitsernakaberd. Or the impact on liberal Turkish activists visiting Armenia (and vice versa).
I do believe that it is the Armenian and Turkish people who have to face their tragic history together (and then hopefully move on) if in different ways as the descendants of victims and perpetrators. Even though also these categories are problematic and often become insufficient when real individuals meet each other. I.e. a Kurdish tribesman, whose grandfather was at the forefront of the genocidal killings might have lost half his family during the Kurdish War of the 1990s. All these personal histories are messy and need to be addressed by real people. Official recognition can help, but many activists in Turkey and people like myself, prefer to do whatever it takes before waiting for official Turkey to make a move. And there is a reason to this insistence on civil society and public debate as the prime site for recognition.
Turkey has a relentless and unforgiving state. Armenians, Turks, Kurds, Assyrians, Alevis, Socialists.... They have all been subjected to state violence and oppression over the last century.
The bottom line is : Do you seek genocide recognition from a Turkish state that is still caught in the mindset and policies of 1915 in its daily politics? Or do you support societal change (and even join forces with activists) in Turkey that will one day result in a thorough reckoning not only with the genocide but with a century of violence against 'Others'? The choice is between an official act of recognition that may satisfy the ARF but will have little impact on how the country operates and the prospect of a Turkey that faces its past (and this, without doubt includes genocide recognition), and can be home again for Armenians and other communities, who were expelled and prosecuted. You choose.
Gary, the saying means if someone is able to understand something then he'll get it anyway but for someone who is unable to see the point of view, no matter how clear and open it might be stated, he just won't get it.
John, you're being prejudice. Please find and get in contact with Armenians who live in Turkey before you make another generalization about Turks. Although, you and Mr. Astarjian are right on one point: Turkey has never been a country with great relationships with its neighbors. Most Turks believe they have no friends other than other Turkic nations. This attitude has to change and is changing slowly, believe it or not. I remember passages in my textbooks in middle+high school labeling most neighbors as enemies and I'm only 22 so it was not a long time ago. Those passages have been revised recently and this government, surprisingly this one, is following a different path with Turkey's neighbors. Do I trust them 100%? No. Are they sincere with everything they do? I'm so sure they are not. After all this is politics and it's not an honest game. However, sincere or not I support the goods they do. Maybe they renovated that historical church to attract tourists but hey, so what? At least that church got renovated. Same goes for the relationships too. They might not be extremely successful with what they do but in my humble opinion, it beats the paranoid and hostile attitude.
I find Mr. Astarjian's articles very enlightening. He, very well, spots out what Turkey is missing and doing wrong. On the other hand, he lacks to explain the conditions in Turkey. I mean, if this country was mature enough to "not claim selective inheritance of its Ottoman past", then we wouldn't be at this point today, would we? Many generations had been raised believing their history is nothing but glorious. Now, it's time their mountains to turn into rocks which will, unfortunately, take some time.
Dr. Astarjian:
Thank you for your fiery articles. Keep on hitting on the head of those big and innate liars. Sooner or later the truth will prevail, thank God.
One of those "bad" armenians
I would not bother responding to Ragnar. He is a provocator that lacks the integrity to discuss honestly and critically. It is a waste of time, as his comments above and elsewhere have proven.
Once again Marc has written an important and insightful article for the Armenian Weekly! The only comment I would add is that the view that Armenians must "give up" something in order to simply have such an agreement with Turkey is the same old racism that has existed for centuries and continues to view Armenians has less than human and unworthy to be treated as equals with Turkey and Turks. Worse, when one fights this racism, they are the ones branded "nationalist". Students of history will understand that such views have their origins over 100 years ago.
The idea that anyone would quote pseudo-historians like Lewy or Mccarthy, who are known to be paid hacks of the Turkish propadanda machine is laughable, indeed. Anyone w/ half a brain will notice that they never refer to truly academic works by objective historians who are not connected to the Turkish money machine. The other thing to note is that as things change within Turkey itself, more and more academics and intellectuals there are feeling free to speak and write about the truth. Once article 301 is put to rest for good, then I'm sure we will see alot of truth revealed, as never before.
Whew, Robert you are one scary dude! Do you really believe the ridiculous things you are saying? Armenians committed genocide against Moslems? Aren't you confusing uprisings or revolts with genocides. Check your definition and look to early Turkish sources and Talaat's own words for the Truth. I resent the arrogant implication that Armenians are cry-babies and think of themselves as the anointed ones just because they seek justice and acknowledgment of the crimes committed by the Ottoman/CUP governments. The FACT of the genocide has been well established and the idea that a historical commission is required to affirm what is already accepted knowledge, is merely an attempt to manipulate history and stall official recognition by Turkey. It's time to face the truth and its consequences and take the steps toward normalization with your Armenian neighbors. It is also time to check your own prejudice and get over the concept that Turks are above criticism. The truth is the truth.
Robert –
Never have I heard from ‘others,’ including some Turks posting here, that editorial board ‘continuously censor and delete everything that they post.’ If everything you post is being deleted, how come your last comment was posted? Unless your posts contain spiteful comments, racial hatred, religious intolerance, or just derogatory words.
You may not like what Armenians are entitled for, demand, consider rightfully theirs, etc. Fine. Then why bother visiting these pages? Go read your school books about glorious Turkish history, about rosy pictures of how compassionate and respectful for human life the Turks are, and continue day-dreaming. That the Turks lived in where they live now forever and there were no other ancient civilizations that the Turks wiped out. And that there were no genocides of Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Alavis, Kurds, Arabs, and others, but instead, the Armenians have ‘perpetrated the genocides against countless of Muslims and non-Muslims alike before, during, and after WWI.’ I wonder where this crap was dug from? Can you refer me to non-Turkish sources affirming what you claimed? I can do so in regard to the treatment of indigenous people of Asia Minor by nomadic Turks by referring you to the national archives of Great Britain, France, Germany, Sweden, Russia, Greece, Italy, the U.S., etc. I can refer you to your own archives containing the hearings of your own Military Tribunal of 1919 about the crimes of the Young Turk mass murderers in regard to the Armenians. I can refer you to the European Parliament resolution affirming the genocide of the Armenians; to the International Association of the Genocide Scholars affirming that mass extermination of the Armenians in Ottoman Turkey fully met the definition of genocide by a Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin who invented the word based on his study of atrocities that Turks have committed against the Armenians. I can refer you to some 28 states of the world whose parliaments concurred the fact of genocide of the Armenians, and their number is increasing. I can refer you to 44 state legislatures of the United States of America that added their resolutions. To the abundance of official correspondence by foreign diplomats and missionaries posted in Constantinople in 1915-1921; wealth of witness accounts of indescribable barbarity with which Turks mass murdered the Armenians; tons of statements by human rights organizations, advocacy groups, and international lawyers to that effect. The list goes on.
The truth is that sooner or later there will be not only talk about reparations, etc., but actual reparations for the wholesale theft of material, intellectual, and cultural property owned by the Armenians and restitution of stolen lands inhabited by them for millennia. We KNOW it will happen.
The world has witnessed the Turkish cowardice when your government hampered the Turkish-Armenian protocols that, by the way, contained a provision on the creation of historical commission. Although opening another study of the genocide by this commission is considered humiliating for the Armenians because the world already knows the truth, the Armenian government, nevertheless, signed the protocols and submitted them for parliamentary ratification. Where were the ‘brave’ Turks, might you know?
Archives in Yerevan are open. In fact, in case you don’t know, there have already been several Turkish scholars visiting Yerevan and conducting research there. Several others, like Orhan Pamuk and Taner Akcam, have already written extensively on the fact of the genocide of Armenians by the Turks.
By bringing up the murders of innocent civilian Turks by Armenian terrorists in the 1970 sand 1980s (where did you get 1990s?) you deliberately fail to look into the causes for these actions and only then whine about the consequences. Had there not been race annihilation and civilization wipe-out by the Turks in the first place, there would have never been retaliation attacks afterwards by the Armenians.
The Woodrow Wilson center ought to be ashamed of itself. But it probably is not so we have to do something about this. Maybe friendly Congressmen and Senators who fund the WW center could call it and demand change.
articles like this one SHOW that the 'great world powers' haven't forgotten our genocide. they simply want to BURY IT and US once and for all. we must wake up and react. but more than this, armenians must go on the offensive already.
All I can do is leave a moment of silence
This is appalling and disgusting - even as the House Foreign Affairs committee passed the resolution under heavy fire from the same lobbyists of the defense contractors and others. I hope our own organizations will take this up and make it simple for people to send targeted emails that are appropriate
Mr. Oktem,
It is refreshing to hear a more truthful and constructive point of view for a change but understand for centuries the Armenians had to carry the great heavy yoke placed upon them against their will by successive Turkish regimes. Whether the Sultan system or the genocidal "young Turks" or even the new incarnation of the Republic of Turkey all have been a great burden that the Armenians had to carry. All have been unfriendly and all have been a danger to the very existence to Armenians themselves which still continues to this day. To further put the burden on the Armenians to somehow be "responsible" for the change required within Turkey to come to terms with it's horrible past is fantasy at best and only further puts the heavy yoke on the wrong shoulders. The Armenians were not equal partners in history but rather victims of racist opportunistic mentality that continues today. The "dreaded" Dashnaks looking back, were the only intelligent group as they took up arms to defend themselves while every other Armenian who stayed "loyal" was eventually murdered. So please excuse the Armenians who have looked squarely at history and have no trust of Turks or their intentions. If the Turks themselves can't change the denialist mindset how can the "boogieman traitor Armenians", as taught to your youth, supposed to change that? There can be no real peace without acknowledgement and justice or any border opening will truly be hollow and believe me history will and does repeat itself.
A well written poem, but I fail to see its Armenian relevance. Another instance of “just because the author is Armenian.” I see no difference between singing the praises of Boston with singing the praises of Ankara; one is responsible for the continued denial of the Armenian Genocide the other is the killing field where the white genocide is destroying Armenian Diaspora community life. The Greater Boston Armenian community has over a hundred years of history, with many ups and downs, but the reality is Armenian community life is on a permanent down slope. Only in the past couple of decades has the community had Armenian day schools and still can not establish an Armenian high school. The percentage of Armenian speakers is at an all time low and who even bothers to read and write Armenian? Some thirty or forty years ago Boston had two Armenian language daily newspapers today only one weekly exists with very limited circulation. Some fifty to seventy years ago there were numerous active Armenian clubs and organizations, where are they now? I don’t even want to address the issue of intermarriage. I only find hope in the words of Hovhannes Shiraz “Miak champan prkutian, hayer depi hayastan.”
As stated on their website, the Zoryan Institute "began to conduct interviews with survivors of the Genocide in the mid-1980s. Eventually the Institute collected some 660 videotapes, representing the largest oral history collection of any Armenian organization". SOME 30 YEARS LATER a) have these video been digitized? b) are they accessible through the internet, if not the actual videos, the index of the interviews? If they have not been digitized, probably by now the video tapes would have lost much of their quality. It is not enough to boast that you have "the largest oral history collection" if the physical quality of the collection is diminishing with each passing year!
Janine, I too was speechless when I read the Armenian original. I felt it was important to share this with the English-speaking world. I thank Tatul Sonentz for the translation.
Khatchig Mouradian
Boston.
A devastatingly cold place
in winter, spring, summer or autumn. Boston.
Countless monuments clad
in the red blood of its native inhabitants
and a mantle the severed heads
of history of misguided liberty.
Boston. Home of Celtic famine victims
wearing Potato Sacks…
Boston.
A horrid place to be
for a refugee in cruelty. Boston.
A place where trash corners you
at every turn disgusting
as Harvard Square, bourgeois Beacon Hill,
or as pretentious on Newbury Street…
Boston.
An empty stage where Berberian met Hovhannes
at an empty hall and remained silent
Boston! A lament and prison for me
on the death march of life –
A miserable place
to suffer the cold while waiting for
a moment for the sun
to rise once more over Armenia…
Boston.
My old suffering.
Shackle of my old death.
Robert..
I want to apologize right off the bat.. and warn you that how I am going to reply to your post will not be as nice and polite as my comrads's responses to you....
May God forgive me because i am going to call you an IDIOT.. you are an absolutely without a doubt considered someone who has NO knowledge about history and you represent the TRUE brainwashed Turks..you are the absolute epitome of what I call primitive uneducated human being.... The editors did you a favor by blocking your posts.. because you just embarassed yourself to the grave... WOW.. what ignorance.....what accussations...
I am disgusted...
Gayane
"They (Turks) have no past; they are not a historical people; they exist only in the present."
by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, TABLE TALK, I January 1823
(Still, today, living only in the present... incapable of wanting to know the truths of their own shameful history, yet the world knows their inhumane treatment of the Armenians - into today. Humans slaughtered, raped, kidnapped, burned alive in our churches - and worse... still paying millions to lobbyists to deny what the world knows the Turks to have 'eliminated' an ancient and advanced
peoples of Armenia from their own lands of nearly 4,000 years! Truthfully, these millions of dollars should, instead, been some of the reparations and more of the Turks due and owing to the Armenian nation!
Manooshag
Robert, violence begets violence. How can you be surprised that some among the descendants of survivors of the Armenian Genocide were moved to commit a violent action against Turkish leaders as representatives of the denialist State. I don't condone these acts on the part of the Armenians, but they were actions that were a direct result of frustration due to justice denied. You don't know the truth and are arguing based on deliberate lies you have been taught.
Boyajian jan.. because Robert does not have brain cells to think outside of his closed minded, one sided Turkish midn set.. that is why...
and he has the nerve to come here and complain..actually whine to us about the violence that Armenians showed toward Muslims and spit out lies and made up data.. WHAT A JOKE.. ...
I wonder if Robert, Murat, and Ahmet are related..because they all possess the same qualities..........
Gayane
G
Wow, I am speechless....what a story.
Amazing story of Armenians, I'm proud to be one too!
While I think it's essential for Armenia and Armenians to develop a new relationship w/ Turkey and Turks, let us not forget that in OUR lifetimes...not that of our grandparents....the Turkish govt and military has destroyed more than 3000 Kurdish villages and forced the migration, internal and external, of more than 4 million Kurds, who have become the new Armenians of Turkey. This is shameful. Acknowledging and apologizing for 1915 also implies 'never again', and I'm afraid that until that can be stated by every Turkish govt going forward, many Armenians, along with Kurds, will be very wary of motives, intent and goals. This does not implicate all Turks, but it does implicate their govt and military, which continue to use brutal force against its own citizens, in something that has apparently become a very nasty tradition for at least 95 years now. Time for a change? I think so.
Is the original Armenian available online? I could not find it on the Hayrenik Weekly website. Would someone please provide a link? Thank you.
If this is the same Boyajian that I know and from reading this article, i am 100% it is the same Boyajian jan..:) I solute you for writing such an EXCELLENT and outright TRUTHFUL article. You are such a masterful writer...:)
I am embarrassed for this organization.. Amot irants.. I hope iranq getina mtnen... what disgrace to the man who stood for justice and truth... it is absolute disgrace.
I will be sharing this article with everyone on my list and I will start sending e-mails out starting with WWC...
I am simply flabbergasted on how low one organization can stoop..it is simply disgusting...
Gayane
Why isn't Davutoglu receiving any awards from the other American Presidents' centers? It is really curious that out of all the Presidents it is the Woodraw Wilson Center that is awarding Davutoglu. Turkish money does wonders doesn't it? Or is it that American values are so cheap and easily bought?
Davutoglu heads a country that has committed a perfect Genocide. The Armenian Genocide involved the killing of an entire population for political reasons and for the taking over of their country. Not only it has gone unpunished, but the perpetrator is actively continuing this Genocide by working on the denial, intimidation, bartering, threatening and cover-up part of it, the goal being to complete a perfect Genocide, with absolutely no punishment. Turkey is presently massacring an entire nation's history. By continuing not to acknowledge its crime, it is abusing the descendents of the victims by denying them their legal rights and their right for closure. These acts are inhumane and should be themselves punished. And Turkey is getting awards for this... from the leader in human rights????!!
There is a very sad charade being played here. The United States of America, Britain and Israel who have all the archives on the Genocide and who know very well that a Genocide has been committed are actively taking part in standing in the way of justice and the legal rights of the descendents of the Genocide, again for their own political gains. Same idea, different package. Need I say more. We are working on going through the correct legal channels to get justice for something that the US knows has happened, and yet the US is using illegal tactics and placing unconscionable hurdles to prevent us from getting justice. Tell me who your friends are, and I will tell you who you are. Were there good Turks? Absolutely, we owe them our lives. Are there good Americans? Plenty, ... but so far not enough.
We should dedicate one site for Armenians to write their poems in.
I respect every poem written that ignites from Armenian soul.
I contributed so much on your site, in spite I live very far and my computer doesn't respond well, I have been ignored fully accept from few nice ladies they liked my poems, Like Gayane, Araxie, Ghovig...I am grateful to them.
I have 10 books of poetry collections during less than 3 years period and my poems in Armenian where refered to Silva Gaboudigian in 1958 and was published in Arminia. Silva forwarded to me her photo with her signature on.
In every poetry book I published there are few poems on genocide
And one book on genocides ( mostly on Armenian genocides and others), and most of my books covered Paintings are by the Armenian painters.
You can see them in Amazon.
My poems are publishe in United Kingdon Magazines " Coversion poetry quartirly" and the editor likes my poems.
I am the Carnegie Poetry Contest Winner, Spring 2009
Probably after I sigh my poems will be respected by Armenians.
Read this poem and enjoy It is in the book which is forwarded to my daughter -in -law, Lilit Garybian, MD, PhD who supported me to start my poetry.
The book named " Angel Lilit Lilting via Internet"
Thanks Kraskian for your poem on Boston.
Boston is like Cambridge and Oxford of U.K
And Yerevan is our Boston,
Foreverly serenades in our Harts.
"Yerevan Tarza em Yerepooni"
Armenian Girls: Kind, Elegant
Armenian girls: kind, elegant,
Hearts beat genuineness from every sight.
Glances express true thoughtfulness.
Glitter cheerfulness in sincerity—delight.
Armenian girls—hairs drape, beauty reign.
Move with the winds, whispering in ears.
To say, “I love life, kind soul to give,
Who deserves my love, able to keep”!
Armenian girls—hands point to blue skies.
When in act turn bronzy-safe swords:
Are small and soft can nightly engrave; can knit,
Can paint, can maintain carts in rains left on muddy paves.
Armenian girls—arms tend to build arcs,
Stir dances with silent hopeful ranks.
Span straight... rounds, glides, as crescent in sky,
Cuddling despaired hearts left lonely in dice.
Armenian femininity designed to bow,
Swings serenades as sympathetic show.
Their dances kneel prays for endless gods,
To keep them secluded of heartless hands.
Armenian girls—voices convey serene sounds.
Resonate in many languages, lilting pounds.
Revise days softly from dawn till dusk.
Praising sunrays—shine on the deprived grounds
Armenian girls' love have holiness.
Spark from heart, spirit, soulfulness.
Eternal devotions no one can put counts.
Yield the ways, for everyone asking human rights!
Each honest lad adores them in secret, hides!
Approach seems uneasy to reach the beloved.
Dreams persist for a man, flying of Mount Ararat.
Who fulfills family egos, yet endless pride!
Sylva Portoian,MD FRCP
I have many mistakes in my first etter
because my computer is slaw and I live miles away!
The Britsh Poetry Journal 's name is "Conversation Poetry Quarterly ,U.K"
My daughter in law's name "Lilit Garibyan, MD PhD Harvard "
Armenians are adored by Arab Muslims.
They call us special race
They know every thing about our genocide.
They are Arab Race before they are Muslims.
Sa’id Aq’l,* a well-known Lebanese poet,
Wrote a famous poem of his soul-inspiring breaths,
Poeming for the Armenian immigrants, suffering in shades;
Those who arrived as orphans** everywhere; scattered,
Survived by training self with thoughtfulness ahead.
Learning many languages not forgetting theirs, praying in bed.
His poem speaks, “Armenian blood flowed from Anatolia,
killer’s rivers-lands spreading; dignity,
literature, knowledge, science, art,
Note from Admin: Please do not use bold.
Armenian Orphans
Armenian orphans, new in birth rate.
Every one lived in Diasporas; vast lost ends.
Honored, serenely privileged for their pert.
Their gratitude extends for supportive “Nations- Heads.”
Who sheltered them from killers’ serration?
Started their lives single-handedly,
Build and prayed in their sad ration.
Asking no one else, not even a cent, pension.
They are architects, dentists, physicians,
Scientists, jewelers, mechanists,
Every job done earnestly not for pretence;
Every one knows them, consent unneeded hence.
Sa’id Aq’l,* a well-known Lebanese poet,
Wrote a famous poem of his soul-inspiring breaths,
Poeming for the Armenian immigrants, suffering in shades;
Those who arrived as orphans** everywhere; scattered,
Survived by training self with thoughtfulness ahead.
Learning many languages not forgetting theirs, praying in bed.
His poem speaks, “Armenian blood flowed from Anatolia,
killer’s rivers-lands spreading; dignity,
literature, knowledge, science, art,
irrigating us: enthusiasm, truth, trust.”
*
and genuineness; he lives close to them has many friends’ journalist and writers.
Sa’id Aq’l: Famous Lebanese poet; he writes many poems on Armenian sincerity
** Antranig Zaroukian
translated from Armenian to Russian (1964), to French (1977), to English (1985), and
to Arabic (1987).In his book, he praises the Syrian Arabs who inspired his new life.
(1913-1989): Author of the book Humans without Childhood,
Karikin
You are expert on Turkish subjects.
Just few minutes ago I heard from BBC that first they accused the Pope shooter (on 17th May 1981) Moh'd Ali was an Armenian , was he carrying Armenian passport?
And do you know about Abdi Ipekci who was shot by the same man.
Does Moh'd Ali belongs to the same group who killed Hrant Dink?
Now he is released, may be he wants to kill all of us on this site.
From the BBC
FILE – In this 1978 file photo, Abdi Ipekci, Chief editor of Turkish newspaper Milliyet, is seen in his office in Istanbul, Turkey. The release from prison of the Turkish man who shot the pope in 1981, has unsettled Turks who remember the gunman for killing the journalist Abdi Ipekci. The world knows Mehmet Ali Agca who was released Monday Jan.18, 2010, for his attempt on the life of Pope John Paul II nearly 29-years ago, but his 1979 killing of journalist Abdi Ipekci still resonates in Turkey where fears of high level conspiracy are still voiced about Mehmet Ali Agca who now enjoys his freedom. (AP Photo/Milliyet)
Katia K, you took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you!
Karekin makes a good point about whether an apology from Turkey will also mean "never again." Turkey has an awful track record and an empty apology is not the goal we strive for. How can we go beyond rhetoric to verifiable, quantifiable measures that provide security for Armenia and its people?
I have the utmost respect for Mr. Balakian. When he is in Los Angeles, I make every effort to see him, most recently at a book signing in Glendale. Unfortunately, I disagree with his assessment in this piece, although I believe it to be unique and well argued.
Nevertheless, the time has long run out...waiting and waiting for post-Reagan recognition from my country, the USA.
I am not looking for my president to firmly recognize the Genocide on the 150th Anniversary. I was looking forward to it on April 24, 2009.
The less militant we become on the issue, the longer we will wait for results. By that time, it really will be ancient history and people will laugh at the idea of the return of land.
I am comfortable in the USA, but not comfortable enough to soften my line against the perpetrators of the Genocide and those who deny it and those who apologize for the perpetrators and deniers.
I really wish there were fewer Armenian-Americans who have compromised their views on the Genocide, because they want to be invited to wine & cheese receptions at the State Department. Mr. Balakian is not one of them, but I think we know those who are...and they are outcasts, in my mind.
PETER MUSURLIAN
GLOBALIST FILMS
"while the Istanbul Court Martial sentenced to death in absentia the Turkish national leadership, including Mustafa Kemal." Was Mustafa Kemal sentenced to death too? Where can I find more information about this?
Thank you
What Akcam discloses about the leakage of his undelivered version of lecture in Yerevan to Turkish authorities is indeed shocking. The corruption at state level and the poverty of large sections of the people in Armenia create a fertile ground for foreign secret agents, in this case the Turkish secret police (MIT), to infiltrate in the fabrics of Armenian society.
This is a real threat to which the authorities and the society at large should seriously attend.
Well, State Department stooges and those sinister shadowy forces representing "internationalist power elites" who manipulate them from various research centers and policy institutes may think, among other considerations, that if Serge Sarkissian was allowed to lay a wreath to Woodrow Wilson's tomb and make a strong speech, now they should counterbalance Armenians by extending an award to Turk Davutoghlu. These guys see themselves as 'rulers of the world,' thinking they can steal God’s authority on Earth as it is in Heaven. In their paranoiac race for total control of the world and manipulation and orchestrastion of many world events, they seem to forget, due to silliness, dim-wittedness, and unholiness, that there’s no such a thing in God-created nature and human life, whether in politics or elsewhere, as total control.
I agree with Peter. Instead of waiting and waiting for recognition from the US government the Diasporan organizations need to employ new tactics. One of the venues might be taking the case to the international judicial institutions and establishing Armenian Studies programs or Genocide Studies projects in as many US universities as possible, not just in CA, NY, MA or MI.
I know Armenians will never cease their efforts, but becoming less militant is exactly what the US government and their ‘valuable allies’ in Turkey want us to do. How many times were we told defeatist phrases such as ‘move on don’t look back,’ ‘sticking to the issue is a looser mentality,’ ‘you cannot correct the past,’ ‘think of helping modern-day Armenia and forget about genocide recognition,’ ‘Ar
Thank you for sharing Alec with all that did not have the opportunity to meet him. Your eulogy captured his essence beautifully.