Three Civilians Killed, Two Injured in Azeri Attack

Armenian Defense Ministry: Consequences Will Fall on the Shoulders of Azerbaijani Military Leadership

On Sept. 24, 83-year-old Parakavar resident Baydzar Aghajanyan and Berdavan residents Shushan Asatryan, 94, and Sona Revezyan, 41, were killed by Azerbaijani artillery fire that targeted the Armenian border villages in Armenia’s Tavush province. Two male residents of Berdavan were also wounded in an attack on the Armenian-Azerbaijani border, according to Paravakar Mayor Roland Margaryan speaking to RFE/RL’s Armenian Service Azatutyun.am.

“The Republic of Armenia urges the Azerbaijani civilian population on the border areas to refrain from becoming a human shield for the military of Azerbaijan,” read a statement released by the Armenian Ministry of Defense, which stressed that “Armenian military forces will take necessary measures to stabilize the situation, the consequences of which will be on the shoulders of Azerbaijani military leadership.”

“The leadership of Azerbaijan disregards all the peace initiatives regarding the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict resolution,” read the press statement, which confirmed that there were civilian casualties, and that the Armenian villages on the border have been under heavy artillery shelling by Azerbaijani gunfire.

“The Armenian Ministry of Defense declares that the evolving situation is a result of the sly policies of Azerbaijani political-military leadership and is clearly in breach of the peace initiatives of the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairmanship,” the statement read.

Warlick - Spet. 24 2015Meanwhile, James Warlick, the U.S. co-chairman of the OSCE Minsk Group, said that the OSCE co-chairs were in touch with officials in Armenia and Azerbaijan about “renewed violence,” and had urged an end to attacks and reprisals, in a tweet.

Azerbaijani attacks on border villages have intensified in recent weeks. In early September, Azerbaijani forces launched long-range rocket attacks on several border villages in Armenia’s Tavush province. As a result, two residents of Koti—one of about 20 villages that were attacked in the area—were wounded and hospitalized; the 43-year-old woman and her 23-year-old son were rushed to a Noyemberyan hospital.

In early September, two Armenian servicemen were killed  during attacks on Armenian positions by the Azerbaijani Armed Forces, reported the Nagorno-Karabagh Republic (NKR/Artsakh) Ministry of Defense. Marat Khachanyan and Arman Stepanyan of the NKR Defense Army were killed during a raid by the Azerbaijani Army.

A day earlier, an Armenian serviceman was killed and two were injured as a result of heavy caliber fire from Azerbaijani positions near border villages in northeastern Armenia, reported the press office of the Ministry of Defense of Armenia on Sept. 3. The attack took place one day following celebrations of the 24th anniversary of the independence of the NKR. Armenian contract serviceman Hayk Karleni Devoyan suffered a fatal shot to the neck during the Azerbaijani offensive. He was 40 years old and had been serving in the Armed Forces of the Republic of Armenia since 2010.

***

Royce and Engel Work to Secure Bipartisan Support for Karabagh Peace-Keeping

This week, the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) launched an Action Alert asking community members to urge their Representatives in Congress to sign a letter drafted by Chairman Ed Royce (R-Calif.) and Ranking Democrat Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.) of the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee, and join a bipartisan call for renewed U.S. leadership in keeping the peace along the Nagorno-Karabagh Line of Contact.

The two senior legislators are currently collecting congressional signatures on a letter addressed to Ambassador James Warlick, the U.S. representative to the OSCE Minsk Group tasked with reaching a resolution on Nagorno-Karabagh-related security and status issues.  In their letter, they specifically call for the U.S. and OSCE to abandon their failed policy of false parity in responding to acts of aggression.

The ANCA Royce-Engel action alert is available at http://www.anca.org/nkpeace.

75 Comments

  1. Wait, don’t tell me – The US and Russia will urge “both sides” to refrain from provocative acts.

    By the way, whatever happened to that mutual defense treaty between Armenia and Russia? I think I saw it floating down the Arax River.

  2. As the price of oil goes down and stays down, Aliyev will become more and more desperate to distract his people from their poverty and from his dictatorial regime. He will revert to the usual scapegoat, the Armenians.

    • Is not happening fast enough. Wonder if the Azeri people know excatly what is happening and how their money is being waisted on arms. Armenia cannot stand by and see the slaughter of innocent people – wonder if the Armenians start doing the same thing, what the response would be from that useless group that is supposedly involved with bipartisan peace process. Could there be ulterior motives involved?

    • Of course Armenia will do nothing and that’s the smart move. Azerbaijan keeps on provoking Armenia to act so there will be war. And the US would LOVE to get involved since they are failing over and over with their efforts to start a fake revolution in Armenia.

      What Armenians should do is start “teaching” the world about Azerbaijan. Let’s not focus on 1915 and start to focus on the present. When Azeris threatened to shoot down civilian planes, why did we not take that opportunity to start the world lesson? And here we have civilian deaths, where is the outrage, protests? Why is there never protests in LA about Azeris? Again… less focus on 1915-Turkey and more focus on the present because AZ is indeed a great danger to Armenia.

      Of course they will suffer God forbid there is a war but let’s not kid ourselves and think war is the solution. Times have changed, it’s not the early 90s.

  3. Do Not Hesitate. DIPLOMACY NOW!
    The Azeris would love to see the Armenians retaliate. Holy cow! Haven’t we learned from past experiences with the Turkish government. CIRCA 1915: Turks attack (i.e.) kill Armenian leaders outside of their villages or towns. Then they wait for the Armenians to do something. Before long, the Armenians fight back. As soon as that happens the Turks accuse the Armenians of aggression and pull out all the stops and pulverize Armenian villages and towns.
    My recommendation is that the government leaders in Armenia set up meetings with the U.S., Russia, and France, OSCE Minsk Group, and do it immediately. THIS IS AN EMERGENCY! The main responsibility of the government of Armenia is to protect its citizenry by securing its borders and residents in border towns and villages. THEY ARE NOT SECURE! What good is our republic when all of her energies are focused on tearing down the old and putting up upscale apartment buildings for seasonal occupants of same buildings. Armenia is extremely vulnerable now to attack by her enemies.
    WAKE UP ARMENIANS!
    Ellen Sarkisian Chesnut
    Author of “Deli Sarkis”

    • No the first thing the Young Turk regime did was de-arm the civilian population. And most Armenians gave up their arms. What a mistake. they should have shot every Turkish/Kudish soldier coming to their door.

    • I would agree with your recommendation, and that such emergency meeting would yield result, if and only if the Azerbaijani oil fields were to dry up completely the day before the meeting and that Turkey was no longer in the NATO alliance. These so-called negotiators are ONLY after their own interests. Their primary interests, among others, are the exploitation of the Caspian oil and the geopolitical importance of Turkey for their foreign policies in the region.

      I would not keep my hope up for them to do the right thing, from our perspective, and as long as there is cheap Azerbaijani oil flowing into energy-hungry Europe with Turkey acting as the transit route, as well as Turkey acting as an anti-Armenian collaborator with Azerbaijan, and that Azerbaijan, using that precious black gold as bait, gets to dictate Turkey’s and European foreign policies on Armenia.

  4. Yerevan is being cowardly. We Armenians need to either respond to these types of Azeri aggression or admit that we are incapable of maintaining a nation and just place Armenia under Russian rule again.

    PS: If we are to expect Russians to save Armenia from these types of border skirmishes, then we Armenians don’t deserve a nation.

    • If Yerevan is being cowardly, what are you doing sitting in your safe office writing posts ?
      Go to the LOC and show how non-cowardly you are.
      Where were you when Yerevan and Stepanakert defeated Turkic invaders and their 1000s of hired mercenaries and Islamic volunteers ?

      “…admit that we are incapable of maintaining a nation and just place Armenia under Russian rule again.”
      Don’t talk on behalf of all Armenians: you want to place yourself under Russian rule, nobody is stopping you.

  5. PS: Moscow will not intervene militarily unless Armenia is under a real threat (i.e. facing an imminent invasion) and it will only do so when Yerevan officially asks for Russian support.

  6. I think we should fire the entire ministry of defense. Where are the Armenian generals,where are our Antranigs and Nejdehs? What kind of generals do we have in the army today? Or where are they? too busy driving their BMWs and Mercedes.

    • “We” should fire ?
      Who is “we”.

      One of those generals you want to “fir”, pal, is DM Seyran Ohanian.
      A veteran and hero of the Artsakh war, who lost a leg during battle.
      How many wars have you participated in ?

      How about you go to Artsakh with your military kit and show those generals how to fight a war.
      How about it pal.

  7. Here’s Armenia’s response:
    “There will be grave consequences for their actions”. Then we’ll hear crickets…. It’s all B.S., this is another method for the government of Armenia to keep the people on their toes and in fear. I don’t doubt that they are working with Baku to shake things up at the border once they have domestic issues with the people. Typical move by dictatorial government…..

  8. The best defense is strong offense. For every Armenian killed one hundred Azeris must be killed in retaliation. You don’t just scold racist criminals or wait to see what bunch of spineless foreign agents have to say about their criminal acts. You speak to them directly and with a language they best understand and respect: Utmost Deadly Force.

  9. {James Warlick, the U.S. Co-Chairman of the OSCE Minsk Group, said that the OSCE Co-Chairs were in touch with officials in Armenia and Azerbaijan about “renewed violence,” and urged an end to attacks and reprisals, in a tweet.}

    ‘Renewed violence’ by whom?

    ‘An end to attacks’ carried out by whom?

    ‘Reprisals’ carried out by whom?

  10. What you guys dont understand is the Armenians in the region have historically been pawns of the west and are expandable. It is to the best interest of the Armenians to get along well with the people in the region, namely the Turks and the Azeris. The big brothers (Russia and America) may easily spend you if their interest dictates them so. It may cost you big time!

    • @Ahmet, How would you respond to your own question if Armenians invaded and occupied your TRUE ancestral homeland in Central Asia in Mongolia and Northern China, i.e. Uyghuristan, nearly wiped out your Turkish race in order to hang onto your homeland for themselves, helped create an artificial Armenian-speaking Greek enclave around your territories and then told you the only way to get along with Armenian occupiers of Turkish homeland is to give up your quest for justice because the only chance you have to survive is to accept the terms stipulated to you by the Armenian aggressors and occupiers with no remorse? Waiting for your answer…

    • What we understand is you know nothing about Armenians or Armenian history.
      It is in the best interest of Armenians to be armed to the teeth and have alliances with the right regional powers, which is not America btw, to fight off nomadic Turkic invaders from Uyguristan who are still squatting on the lands of others, and who are still attempting to exterminate the indigenous peoples.

      The attempt by Turkic invaders to commit a 2nd Genocide of Armenians failed in Artsakh in 1994. About 37,000 terrorist Turkic and Islamist invaders of Armenian lands were KIA, and thrown out.

      And you got it backwards: the foreign people in the region, Turks of Asia Minor and Turks of Caucasus (there is no such ethnos as ‘Azeri’), need to learn to live with the natives, and not try to wipe them out.
      We didn’t invite you Turks to come and squat on our lands.
      Go away already.

  11. In an emergency press conference after the latest terrorist attack on Armenian civilians by the criminal gang in Baku Khanate, RoA’s DM Seyran Ohanian acknowledged that RoA’s military has lost control of the situation and issued an urgent appeal to Armenian-American cyber-warriors.

    The DM admitted that despite RoA military and civilian leadership having fought in the (real) NKR War of Survival and Liberation, Armenian-American keyboard-warriors are urgently needed at the LOC.

    The response to the appeal has been overwhelming.
    Thousands of young Armenian-American keyboard-warriors have been streaming to recruitment centers set up throughout US.
    In fact, in one Southland city with a large Armenian-American presence, Glendale, police had to close off parts of Central Ave, as 10s of 1000s of young keyboard-warriors from all over Los Angeles county filled the sidewalks and the street outside St. Mary’s Apostolic Church, where a volunteer recruitment center has been set up.

    RoA government has pledged that every keyboard-warrior will be met with representatives of RoA Defense Ministry at Zvartnots International Airport and will be issued a brand new military grade keyboard, before the volunteers depart for the LOC.

    Our sources from Baku indicate that the criminal gang is really worried.

    • They then asked their best ally “Russia” and of course Russia responded immediately by finalizing the last billion dollars or so of Russian made arms, transferred directly to Azerbaijan.

    • {According to the Ministry, Azerbaijani forces used Turkish-made TR-107 rocket launchers in the attack. Intensive shelling reportedly took place on Sept. 24 and 25.}

      In case you missed it, let me point it out to you: “Turkish-made TR-107 rocket launchers”.
      Not Russian-made, but Turkish-made.
      Clear ?

      Yep: those Russian weapons from {their best ally “Russia”} transferred directly to Azerbaijan have been killing a lot of Armenian civilians and soldiers, haven’t they ?

      How about you start raggin on some on the real enemies of Armenians – Turks.

    • Ah, now I understand. The Azeri’s are saving those billions of dollars of advanced Russian made weapons for another war with someone else. And, our best and most sacred ally, Russia, wouldn’t allow otherwise, as is evident by their deafening silence over the recent escalation resulting in ARMENIANS DEAD..

      Just to be clear:
      “Russia to Complete Weapons Transfer To Azerbaijan by 2016”..AZBAREZ Sep 9th, 2015
      “Sleeping with Our Enemy: Russia Sells Weapons to Azerbaijan”. Armenian Weekly, March 5th, 2015.
      “Russia Sells Weapons to Azerbaijan”. HETQ Feb 21, 2015.

  12. Instead of warning of the consequences, Armenian military should make a similar artillery response quickly and stronger and then release statements, unless the Russians are not letting Armenia respond, or Armenia is afraid to respond. Also, was there any response to the Hungarian government after they handed over the criminal Azeri soldier to Azerbaijan, who became free and a hero. Or, this is a forgotten case. Anyone who has an update on this issue please respond.

  13. We keep hearing about Azeri attacks. Whether it’s on a village, sniping, shooting a soldier, or bringing down a helicopter. Has there been any military response from the Armenian side or they just suffice with making statements. Anyone has update please respond.

  14. Enough is enough.
    This requires a decisive response by the ROA and NKR military.
    No more letters, actions alerts. Talk will not do it. Action is needed. Strike back.
    Innocent people are killed, and all we get from the wimpy, dishonest, biased James Walrick is a meaningless tweet.
    The OSCE Minsk group is an ineffective puppet . To hell with them.
    The Azeris continue their transgressions and the ROA and NKR are asked to refrain from provocative acts. This is totally unfair and unacceptable.
    Vart Adjemian

  15. If we are incapable of forcefully responding to these types of cross-border attacks by Azeris, we have to admit to ourselves that we are incapable of maintaining a nation-state. If we are to expect Russians to save Armenia from these types of border skirmishes every time they occur, then we don’t deserve a nation. In fact, Russians will lose their faith in us, for what good is a nation if it cannot defend itself? Yerevan is acting cowardly. If this is how it’s going to be, let’s just place Armenia back under Russian rule once again and be done with it. Armenia is located in the violent south Caucasus. If we want Armenia to be a respected nation-state, Armenia has to be ready and willing to defend itself at all times.

    A message to all our Russophobes who ironically call on Mother Russia for protection every time something goes wrong along Armenia’s borders with Azerbaijan or Turkey: Moscow will not directly intervene militarily on Armenia’s behalf unless Armenia is facing a serious threat (i.e. the danger of an invasion) and it will only do so when Yerevan officially asks for Russian military assistance.

    • Who is this “we” you keep talking about ?
      You is not Armenia.

      Armenia and NKR are very capable of responding and have: it is not publicized.
      And who is expecting Russia to quote “save” Armenia from these types border skirmishes ?
      It is the Armenian troops who are guarding and fighting off invaders at the LOC with Azerbaijan in both RoA and NKR.
      Russians are guarding the Western border against NATO member Turkey: thank you very much.

      In 2014 and 2015 dozens of Armenian young men were KIA defending their lands.
      How many Russian troops have been killed guarding Armenia’s borders ? Zero.

      “Yerevan is acting cowardly”
      Again: you want to show Yerevan how to be brave, _you_ go to the LOC and show them.
      Don’t sit in your office far away from danger and lecture people who have fought in a real war.

      “If this is how it’s going to be, let’s just place Armenia back under Russian rule once again and be done with it.”
      No that’s not how it’s going to be.
      And before you place Armenia under Russian rule, how about you first place all of Ukraine under Russian rule: after all, Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire, and in fact is the cradle of Russia, the Kievan Rus.
      If that works out OK, we can then discuss Armenia becoming part of Russia.
      Deal ?

    • You have been pushing this idea of “giving up on Armenia” for a while now. And as a “norserunt” why aren’t you advocating the purging of an artificially created nation like “Azerbaijan” who also happened to be created on Russia’s lands? So our people’s “norserunts” have figured out that Azerbaijan and Turkey should exist but not Armenia huh?

    • Hagop, Where did I say let’s give up on Armenia? All I’m saying is that IF Armenians prove UNABLE to protect Armenia from its enemies than yes we should give Armenia back to the Russian for safekeeping. What I am doing is reverse psychology. My comments should make you say “I’ll show you how we’ll protect Armenia”! Get it? Now stop putting words in my mouth and get with the program.

  16. (joe // September 26, 2015 at 9:14 am //)

    Sorry [Joe], you do not understand.

    Just to be clear: no need for you put in links about Russian weapons sales to Azerbaijan. I have seen nobody on the pro-Russian side who comments @AW deny Russia selling weapons to Azerbaijan.
    It is public knowledge.
    Furthermore, many of us have put forth the rationale for those sales being beneficial to Armenia, given that Azerbaijan can and does purchase weapons on the worldwide weapons market: so clearly we do not deny it.

    Now.

    I have posed this question to the anti-Russian posters several times during the past several weeks.
    To date no one I am aware of has posted an answer.
    So I will pose the question to you directly.

    You do not like Russia being in Armenia.
    You want Russia out of Armenia.
    Am I correct ?

    OK then.
    Please propose at least one other country that can replace Russia and is able and willing to prevent an invasion into Armenia by NATO member Turkey.
    In the event that you do not believe Armenia needs such an ally, please propose a realistic defense scenario whereby Republic of Armenia and NKR (combined population of about 3 million) can block an all out armored invasion by Turkey (nominal Turks population of 50 million, with a standing army of 500K+) through the Western border, while at the same time fighting off an Azerbaijani invasion on the Eastern border.

    There are some other non-military consideration that the proposed new ally has to fulfill.
    But I will patiently wait for you to reveal your candidate, before I proceed with the non-military qualifications.

    Just to be extra clear: you and the other anti-Russian posters do not like the deal Armenia’s got with Russia.
    Fine: find us a better deal, and we’ll talk.

  17. “Furthermore, many of us have put forth the rationale for those sales being beneficial to Armenia.”

    Actually, it’s only been you and your small tribe of fellow Russian nationalists who’ve put forth this extremely foolish rationale. Again, what could possibly be beneficial about Armenia’s “ally” supplying four billion dollars worth of heavy military arms to Armenia’s mortal enemy (Azerbaijan), which is for the purpose of killing Armenians?

    • The word ‘tribe’ is used here in an attempt to exonerate yourself for calling RoA and Artsakh residents and Diaspora Armenian communities ‘tribes’, I presume?

      Yerevanian // September 23, 2015 at 6:47am in “Baku Resorts to Violence as NKR Celebrates Independence”:
      “[…] hayastantsi, artsakhtsi, libananahay, parskahay, siriahay, rusahay, fransiahay, amerikahay, and all the other Armenian tribes.”

      In this sentence: “it’s only been you and your small tribe of fellow Russian nationalists”, to use the word ‘tribe’—even in a derogatory sense as you clearly intended—is acceptable, because here it refers to a distinctive close-knit group (‘you and your group’), which is a secondary definition of ‘tribe’ (Oxford English Dictionary).

      But to use ‘tribe’ in its primary sense, as a social division in a society consisting of families linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader (Oxford English Dictionary) in connection to the worldwide Armenian communities, was a major and irreparable slip-up. No Armenian ever uses the word ‘tribe’ to describe our compatriots in the RoA and Artsakh and our Diaspora communities and groups.

      The word ‘tribe’, in its primary definition, is fully applicable, for example, to the extended Mongol Turkoman families of the Ak Koyunlu (white sheep) and the Kara Koyunlu (black sheep), whose uninvited appearance and rule in the 13th-14th centuries in Iran, Armenia and parts of the Byzantine Empire, led to the creation of the Ottoman Turkish empire in the 16th century and a Turkic nation-state of Azerbaijan in 1918.

      Feel free to use the word ‘tribe’ unrestrictedly in connection to the descendants of these tribes of white and black sheep.

    • “small tribe” ?
      “tribe” ?(!)
      Getting pretty desperate there pal.

      No Armenian speaks of Armenian Diaspora communities as, quote, “tribes”.

      Turkic nomads have tribes.
      Very familiar concept to them.
      You can’t undo what you wrote.
      Thanks for the gift.
      Our small “tribe” greatly appreciates it.

    • Since when do the members of the Russian nationalist tribe have the right to tell an Armenian the conditions under which he can or can’t use the word, “tribe?” Anyway, it seems that the two of you are getting more and more desperate in your attempt to falsely establish that I’ve been using the word, “tribe,” in a derogatory manner, and that this word can only be used in connection with the Turkic peoples. And what about the Native American Indian tribes of the past and present United States? What about the Black tribes of Africa? Well, let me again take the opportunity to furnish both of you with some much-needed education. If you’d only take the time to check out the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, you’ll discover that one of the definitions of the word, “tribe,” is “a group of people that includes many families and relatives who have the same language, customs, and beliefs.” Another definition, would be “a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest.” Therefore, based on these definitions, you can attach the word, “tribe,” to any particular group of people who share the same cultural identity and traditions. Here, let me give you an example:
      Later on tonight, I along with several brothers from my East Hollywood Armenian tribe are going to meet a small tribe of Salvadoran young ladies; and then, we all plan to go dancing at one of the Hollywood nightclubs.

      And, here’s some further education for the two of you in regard to the Armenian people and tribes:
      http://www.tacentral.com/people.asp?story_no=2

      “The Armenians are an Indo-European race made up of tribes that long inhabited the Armenian Plateau.”

      “Tribes formed the essence of the Armenian culture from its inception, and to some, it continues to cause challenges.”

    • {Since when do the members of the Russian nationalist tribe have the right to tell an Armenian the conditions under which he can or can’t use the word, “tribe?”}

      Since the time when an “Armenian” had used the word ‘tribe’ to describe indigenous Armenian populations of the RoA and Artsakh, as well as worldwide Armenian Diaspora communities.

      {You are getting desperate in your attempt to falsely establish that I’ve been using the word “tribe” in a derogatory manner.}

      Nope. It is established by the Oxford Dictionary, the most reputable dictionary of the English language. ‘Tribe’ 1.2 often derogatory: ‘a distinctive close-knit group’, as in: ‘The entire tribe is coming for Thanksgiving’. Or, as in your own: “The members of the Russian nationalist tribe”.

      {And that this word can only be used in connection with the Turkic peoples. What about the Native American Indian tribes of the United States or the Black tribes of Africa?}

      The connection was made to tribes residing in our region, not in the United States or Africa. In Asia Minor or, historically, Western Asia, the only known tribes are nomadic Turkic ones. All others: Armenians, Persians, Talysh, Kurds, Lezgins, Assyrians, Tats, Pontic Greeks, Avars, etc., are autochthonous peoples. And bringing Native American Indian tribes or the Black tribes of Africa into a discussion is another hobbyhorse of the Denialist Turks or their extension AXErbaijanis when they feel they have no leg to stand on trying to prove how they popped up in the region.

      {In the Merriam-Webster dictionary one of the definitions of the word “tribe” is “a group of people that includes many families and relatives who have the same language, customs, and beliefs.” Another definition would be “a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest.”}

      No one contests these brief definitions of the word ‘tribe’. Regardless, no Armenian ever attaches such a word to describe his or her co-ethnics scattered to the four winds as a result of genocide perpetrated by nomadic Turkic tribes which originated in the steppes of Central Asia and the areas adjacent to the Altay Mountains and which in the 11th century intruded into Asia Minor, the land of others.

      {Therefore, based on these definitions, you can attach the word “tribe” to any particular group of people who share the same cultural identity and traditions.}

      Really? No. You cannot selectively attach the word to a context only because you now try to brush your slip-up under the rug. Both Oxford and Merriam-Webster agree that tribe is ‘a social division in a society consisting of families’ (Oxford) or ‘a social group comprising numerous families and clans’ (Merriam-Webster). But Oxford and Merriam-Webster are dictionaries, and, as such, they only provide abridged definitions. On a higher, academic, level, a tribe is viewed—historically, anthropologically or developmentally—as a social group that existed before the development of, or outside of, states. One ideal example of such a group that existed outside its current state are the Mongol Turkoman tribes of Ak Koyunlu and Kara Koyunlu. The descendants of these tribes of white sheep and black sheep now form a large part of the population of AzerBEYjan. Armenians residing in the Republic, Artsakh and all over the globe, on the other hand, are not ‘social divisions’ or ‘social groups’, because genocide scattered these people from their sedentary ancestral homeland to the four corners of the earth. Therefore, they are the Diasporan communities.

      The provided link tells us nothing new. Only if you needed it to enlighten yourself, of course. No one here argues that the Armenians, as an Indo-European nation, might have been the product of amalgamation of various Urartian tribes. But Armenians developed as a nation-state having inhabited the Armenian Plateau—their original habitat—for millennia. In other words, to make it clearer for you, there is no reference that would suggest that Armenians are a social group that existed before the development of, or outside of, their state.

    • Well, you again failed to properly read the definitions of the word, “tribe,” which I provided you from the most respectable dictionary of the English language (Merriam-Webster). Furthermore, nowhere in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary does it say that the word, “tribe,” is a derogatory term. In fact, it provides two examples of the word, “tribe,” which run parallel with the definitions that I provided you:
      (1) a tribe of artists with wild hair and casual manners
      (2) the wedding joined the two tribes together

      Again, contrary to your enormously silly explanation that the word, “tribe,” can be used only in connection with Turk nomads, it can used for any particular group of people who share the same cultural identity, occupation, or interests.

      By attempting to foolishly suggest that bringing up a discussion on the Native American Indian tribes or the Black tribes of Africa is a “hobbyhorse” of the denialist Turks/Azeris just shows what an extreme denialist you are in your desperate attempt to restrict the word, “tribe,” to the Turks and Azeris.

      “Armenians might have been the product of amalgamation of various Urartian tribes”? This is again another horribly absurd statement by someone who knows so extremely little about the Armenian people and their history. First of all, the Urartian tribes did indeed participate in the ethnogenesis of the Armenian people; however, they were not the only tribes. In addition, there were several other tribes such as the Nairi, Hayassa-Azzi, Aratta, and Mitanni, who also participated in the ethnogenesis of the Armenian people.

      Contrary to your extremely false assertion that no Armenian would ever use the word, “tribe,” in connection with my compatriots in Armenia, Artsakh, and the diaspora, TourArmenia.com precisely did this. Here, since you’re incapable of reading simple English, let me again take the time to read for you what it says in that article:

      “The Armenians are an Indo-European race made up of tribes that long inhabited the Armenian plateau.”

      “Tribes formed the essence of the Armenian culture from its inception, and to some, it continues to cause challenges.”

      Well, knowing what kind of an extreme denialist you are, you’re probably going to try and suggest that this is not an Armenian website, but is instead a Turkish/Azeri website?

    • You can play dumb or twist words and facts for as much as you want. You screwed up and are desperate… It won’t change the fact that no Armenian speaks of Armenians and their Diasporan communities as ‘tribes’. Because every Armenian knows that as a social group that shares the same cultural, civilizational, religious, and linguistic identity, Armenians existed in their habitat on a par with the development of their states or state confederations, and not before them. The only tribes in our region are originally nomadic families, who were not integrated into a national society and existed before the development of their states and far outside of them. You’ll hit the bull’s eye if you use the word ‘tribe’ with reference to the Turkoman families of Ak Koyunlu (white sheep) and Kara Koyunlu (black sheep), the descendants of which now comprise the bulk of population of AzerBEYjan, a nation-state which was formed only in 1918.

    • Alleged Yerevantsi:

      Keep digging, as you go deeper in the hole you are in.
      Pretty soon you’ll reach China.
      As was noted by [John] and yours truly: you slipped up, big time; there is another more colorful expression for your gaff, but this is a family show.

      The cloak you had carefully erected to conceal your real agenda was blown away: happens all the time to those who pretend.
      All one has to do is wait long enough.
      The more you desperately try to patch in the word “tribes” in all sorts of ridiculous constructs, the deeper you’ll sink in the tar pit you are in.

      {“Later on tonight, I along with several brothers from my East Hollywood Armenian tribe are going to meet a small tribe of Salvadoran young ladies; and then, we all plan to go dancing at one of the Hollywood nightclubs.”}

      Can one get more ridiculous than that, desperately trying to worm in the word “tribe” in a supposed Armenian context ?

      And someone who searched the entire internet for some smidgen of reference to Armenian “tribes”, and best he could come up with to supposedly back up his illogical reference to Armenian Diaspora _communities_ as, quote, “tribes”, is a Armenian travel site operated by who knows who – ipso facto admits he is sinking in the tar pit.

      Don’t know about this guy’s travel advice, but he should steer clear – waaay clear – of making comments about Armenian history.
      The guy is probably a nice guy, in that he promotes tourism to Armenia – thank you very much.
      But he is clueless about real Armenian history.

      Here is one gem from the amateur historian cum travel agent:

      {“……. while others cite Herodotus and Strabo accounts’ of the people migrating into the Armenian highlands from Thrace and Phyrgia around 2000 BC.”}
      The classic Turkophile lie about the origins of Armenians.

      Send us postcard from China when you get there.

    • “You can play dumb or twist words and facts for as much as you want. You screwed up and are desperate.”

      Well, it’s certainly good that you finally recognize what you’ve been doing this whole entire time.

      “No Armenian speaks of Armenians and their Diasporan communities as ‘tribes.'”

      But yet, that educational article from TourArmenia.com completely debunks your foolish assertion. Furthermore, the two of you are in no position to declare what an Armenian would never speak about. Again, the two of you represent nothing in the Armenian culture. And, how enormously foolish it is that both of you have given yourselves the right to declare what an Armenian would never say, when it happens to actually be the two of you who’ve stated that the Russian sale of four billion dollars worth of heavy military arms to Armenia’s mortal enemy (Azerbaijan) which is for the purpose of killing Armenians, happens to be beneficial to Armenia. This is most certainly something that no Armenian would ever say. Therefore, despite all your desperate pretending, your true identities have been clearly revealed.

      In regard to the origins of Armenians, make sure to click on the “History” part of that article, and then click on the part that says, “Armenia’s Cradle of Civilization.”

      Anyway, when the two of you finally reach China after all that digging, be sure to send us a postcard so that I can send you some more educational articles about the Armenian people and their history.

  18. “no Armenian speaks of Armenians and their Diasporan communities as ‘tribes’.”

    Garegin Nzhdeh called his movement “Tseghakron,” i.e. “the religion of the tribe”
    Meaning, Nzhdeh referred to Armenians as a tribe.
    The ruling Republican party of Armenia, which includes “President” Serzh, has named “Tseghakron” its ideological basis
    So, according to our SAPs (Self Appointed Patriots):
    – Nzhdeh was not Armenian.
    – Armenia’s ruling party consists of non-Armenians
    – Serzh is a non-Armenian

    The moment our SAPs start calling Armenians non-Armenians, you know they have become really desperate.

    It’s fun watching our SAPs shooting themselves in the foot … again and again.

    • The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց ցեղասպանություն)

      Let’s see: Genocide=Tribocide.
      Really ?

    • How many Armenians don’t know that “tseghakron” is not “the religion of the tribe”, but “bearer of the race”? “Tseghakron” is a blend word that was formed from two other words: “tsegh” and “kron”, wherein the word “tsegh” is referred to as “race”, while “kron” is derived from the Armenian verb “krel” (to bear), meaning that a tseghakron bears in his or her individuum the traits, characteristics, morals, and values of the Armenian race.

      How many Armenians don’t know that in the Armenian language the word “tsegh” has several meanings, and that it was one of them, ‘race’, that was used by Garegin Nzhdeh in the blend word “tseghakron”?

      How many Armenians don’t know that Nzhdeh assigned a specific meaning to “tseghakron”, a meaning that goes beyond simple symbiosis of two words? For Nzhdeh, the notion of “tsegh” had higher meaning than anthropological “race”, because he saw the origin and the purpose of a race in the work of God.

      The premeditated and systematic elimination of Armenians as a racial, ethnic, religious, cultural and national group in 1915-1923 was used as a case for coining the word “genocide”, a blend word that was formed from words –geno (race) and –cide (killing). So, according to BWUFNs (BlogoWarriors Under Fictitious Names):

      a. Raphael Lemkin didn’t coin the word “genocide” based on the root of the Greek verb ‘γεννάω ‎(gennáō)’, i.e. “I bring forth”, generally translated as “race” and a word derived from the Latin verb ‘caedere’, generally translated as “to kill”.
      b. The word “tseghaspanutiun” in Armenian doesn’t mean “the killing of a race”, but “the killing of a tribe”. Thus in 1915 it was an unidentified Armenian “tribe” that was killed by the Ottoman Turkish savages.
      c. Because Lemkin has also studied the case of the German annihilation of the Jews, his word “genocide” is applicable not to the Jewish race, but to one or several of the twelve tribes of Israel.

      The moment our BWUFNs start calling Armenian Diasporan communities “tribes” and translate “tseghakron” as “the religion of the tribe”, we know they have made irreparable screw-ups…

    • [“How many Armenians don’t know that “tseghakron” is not “the religion of the tribe”, but “bearer of the race”?” john // October 6, 2015 at 10:53 am //]

      Dear John, my favorite “academic” debater, how many real, intelligent Armenians would not know that “tseghakron,” just as “tsegh,” can have different meanings?

      “Abrahamian offers slightly different translation of Tseghakron as ‘religion of a tribe/kindred group’; Levon Abrahamian, Armenian Identity in a Changing World”
      https://books.google.com/books?id=I77oBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT346

      So, according to you, scholars like Levon Abrahamian are not Armenian either. So much fun.

      [“in the Armenian language the word “tsegh” has several meanings”]

      Congratulations, you just discovered that words can have different meanings. So, when your opponent used the word “tribe” to describe you and your cyber-pals, did you not know that yet (as any Armenian would)? Or you were simply desperate (again) to call another Armenian a non-Armenian because you were losing an argument?

    • {how many real, intelligent Armenians would not know that “tseghakron,” just as “tsegh,” can have different meanings?}

      So far I know only one “intelligent” person, you, who knows full well (not even offers his personal opinion like others do) that ‘tseghakron’ can have different meanings. It appears that you consider yourself so intelligent that you even know better than the creator of the word, Garegin Nzhdeh himself, who defined ‘tseghakron’ in «Khrovq» magazine, as follows:
      “Ցեղակրոն լինել նշանակում է կրել անհատի մեջ ցեղը, նրա որակները, բարոյականը, կրել այն ամեն ցեղային-հայկականը, որն առկա է հայոց պատմության ողջ ընթացքում”

      I trust that, as real Armenian, you should have a fairly command of the language to understand what’s written above.

      {Congratulations, you just discovered that words can have different meanings. So, when your opponent used the word “tribe” to describe you and your cyber-pals, did you not know that yet?}

      Actually, yes, if you scroll up and open your eyes wider, you’ll see that I did admit that ‘tribe’, as a “distinctive close-knit group” (Oxford Dictionary), has a meaning of a ‘group’, often used in a derogatory sense, as it was clearly intended by your blogowarrior-bff (“the members of the Russian nationalist tribe”). And if you, as an intelligent Armenian, continue to work on improving your intelligence, you’ll find out that not only can words have different meanings in one language, but that these meanings can actually vary from a language to a language. You’ll be pleasantly surprised to enlighten yourself that if in the Armenian language ‘tribe’ (ցեղ) can have a meaning of ‘race’ (ռասա), it doesn’t automatically mean that in the English language, too, ‘tribe’ can have a meaning of ‘race’.

      Come back to us after you’re done with your homework.․․

    • [“So far I know only one “intelligent” person, you, who knows full well (not even offers his personal opinion like others do) that ‘tseghakron’ can have different meanings.”]

      Maybe you could not read the quote I posted first time. I will repost it, so you can try again:

      “Abrahamian offers slightly different translation of Tseghakron as ‘religion of a tribe/kindred group’; Levon Abrahamian, Armenian Identity in a Changing World”

      So, apparently, there is more than one intelligent Armenian who believes that words, including tsegakron, can have different meanings. As an additional lesson for you: no one, not even those who coin words, have monopoly over words. That’s why we don’t copyright words.

      [“if you scroll up”]
      Now, why would I waste precious minutes of my divine time to read a pointless discussion? Ok, so I did sacrifice a few minutes to read a few posts. Ok, so it seems your opponent referred to subgroups of Armenians as tribes. And? Here is a lesson for you. Armenians come in all shapes, sizes, and levels of education. We sophisticated Armenians know this. Your camp (the SAPs) still need some learning to do in that department. Make sure to really do your homework before you come back to us.

    • If you chose to quote from the Google book and to add thereto a link, be decent enough to make clear for the readers that you weren’t referring directly to Levon Abrahamian’s work, but only copy-pasted the opening sentence of endnote 6 in that book, which summarized Abrahamian’s work in authors’ opinion. We don’t know what Abrahamian himself actually wrote in his account. Even if Abrahamian wrote what the endnote had summarized, it’d make him just one interpreter whose personal view for the translation of the word ‘tseghakron’ slightly differs from a genuine definition offered by the one who coined the word, as well as by several other authors. Not surprisingly, you chose to conveniently omit the rest of endnote 6. Whereas it specifically mentions that:
      “Some other interpreters translate the word ‘tsegh’ as race, which can be accompanied by the claim that Nzhdeh’s teachings should be perceived as more general Aryan ideology. Sometimes the word ‘kron’ is translated not as ‘religion’, but as ‘to bear/to carry in oneself’. Thus Tseghakron can be also translated as ‘carrying the nation/race’.”

      Whatever opinion the authors of the Google book in their endnote 6 offered and whatever Abrahamian in his account might or might not actually has written, the fact remains that the one who actually coined the term ‘tseghakron’, Garegin Nzhdeh himself, offered the following interpretation. Here it is, again… specially for you:
      “Ցեղակրոն լինել նշանակում է կրել անհատի մեջ ցեղը, նրա որակները, բարոյականը, կրել այն ամեն ցեղային-հայկականը, որն առկա է հայոց պատմության ողջ ընթացքում:”

      As an Armenian, can you read the Armenian text? Let me know if you need help with reading comprehension.

      {So, apparently, there is more than one intelligent Armenian who believes that words, including tsegakron, can have different meanings.}

      Consider math lesson. If ethnographer Levon Abrahamian, who might have offered his personal view on the mode of translation of ‘tseghakron’, is 1, and poster ‘Vahagn’, who has no academic input into the field whatsoever, is 0, how many of these two can authoritatively have a take on the subject? Let me know if you need help with this intricate problem.

      {No one, not even those who coin words, have monopoly over words.}

      This was an idiotic statement. No one can have ‘monopoly’ over words per se. But those who coin words have an untrammeled right to give their definitions, just like Nzhdeh and Lemkin have done with their respective inventions, the words ‘tseghakron’ and ‘genocide’.

      When you finish doing your homework translating Nzhdeh’s definition of ‘tseghakron’ from Armenian and figuring out the end result of the intricate problem 1 + 0 = …, do please spare a precious minute of your divine time, your holiness, to report back to us.

    • {Ok, so it seems your opponent referred to subgroups of Armenians as tribes. And?}

      … a myriad of slip-ups continues. The more you and your bff-blogowarriors screw up, the more you reveal your true agenda. Keep up the ball rolling…

      This time Armenian Diasporan communities are called [ethnic] ‘subgroups’. The hell with the Oxford English Dictionary which defines ‘ethnic group’ as a “socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience”. According to a couple of ‘real’ and highly ‘intelligent’ blogowarriors, the RoA and Artsakh Armenians and worldwide Armenian communities don’t identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. We identify with each other based on experience we have had on two different Andromeda galaxy planets.

      {Armenians come in all shapes, sizes, and levels of education.}

      And? It doesn’t change the fact that Armenians of the Diaspora, who come in all shapes, sizes, and levels of education, are communities. Just like it doesn’t change the fact that Turks and their extension Azeris, who come in all shapes, sizes, levels of education, and scope of savagery, are originally nomadic tribes.

    • Let’s sort out and debunk a few more “points.”

      [“If you chose to quote from the Google book and to add thereto a link, be decent enough to make clear for the readers that you weren’t referring directly to Levon Abrahamian’s work”]

      Here is the quote from Google Books:

      “Abrahamian offers slightly different translation of Tseghakron as ‘religion of a tribe/kindred group’; Levon Abrahamian, Armenian Identity in a Changing World”

      Now tell us, is it difficult for you to see that the quote is not directly *from* Abrahamian’s work but *about* it? Now, after I provided the *exact* page of the book, if you have trouble reading the rest of the footnote, that is nobody’s problem.

      [“If ethnographer Levon Abrahamian, who might have offered his personal view on the mode of translation of ‘tseghakron’, is 1 …”]

      Probably the silliest paragraph on this page. Let me go over it again, maybe this time you will get it. Here is what you posted:

      [“So far I know only one “intelligent” person, you, who knows full well (not even offers his personal opinion like others do) that ‘tseghakron’ can have different meanings.”]

      Meaning: you claimed that I was the only person believing that tseghakron can have different meanings. And you were faced with a quote showing that another person, Levon Abrahamian, believed it too. In other words, your initial claim was wrong. Let us know if you are still not getting it.

      [“those who coin words have an untrammeled right to give their definitions, just like Nzhdeh and Lemkin have done with their respective inventions, the words ‘tseghakron’ and ‘genocide’.”]

      Anybody has an untrammeled right to say anything. That’s the whole point of freedom of speech. And by the same token, anyone has the untrammeled right to use a word differently than someone else. That is how languages evolve. And to claim that someone is non-Armenian because he uses a word differently is quite foolish.

    • {Is it difficult for you to see that the quote is not directly *from* Abrahamian’s work but *about* it?}

      Do I really have to tell you, again, to scroll up and open your eyes wider? Where in your October 7, 2015 at 6:21pm post did you specify that the quote was not directly *from* Abrahamian’s work but was *about* it? When a debater states something like this: “Abrahamian offers slightly different translation of Tseghakron as ‘religion of a tribe/kindred group’. -Levon Abrahamian, Armenian Identity in a Changing World”, he intentionally misleads the readers in that the sentence was quoted directly from a scholarly work, whereas, in reality, it was only a portion of a footnote quoted from other authors’ work.

      {If you have trouble reading the rest of the footnote, that is nobody’s problem.}

      It is certainly a problem with a person’s decency, because to quote selectively is the cheapest method generally utilized by intellectually weak persons.

      {“So far I know only one “intelligent” person, you, who knows full well (not even offers his personal opinion like others do) that ‘tseghakron’ can have different meanings.”}

      Let me rephrase my earlier statement in plain words so you understand. A portion of a quote from a footnote in other authors’ work cannot be taken as evidence of what Abrahamian himself actually wrote in his account. Thus my remark about the only one “intelligent” person that I knew at the time, who knows that ‘tseghakron’ can have different meanings. By the way, any success in translating the meaning of the word ‘tseghakron’ that its author has offered?

      { That’s the whole point of freedom of speech. Anyone has the untrammeled right to use a word differently than someone else. That is how languages evolve. And to claim that someone is non-Armenian because he uses a word differently is quite foolish.}

      So that’s how languages evolve, huh? By way of substituting a meaning for one word by a meaning ascribed to another word? Silly me, until now I thought that languages evolve based on a need to name and label the different tools, methods, phenomena, etc. used to construct them. Each language—natural or constructed—has stock of words, each of which has one or several specific meanings. In a given language, the word ‘tribe’ has its set of meanings, while the word ‘communities’ or ‘diaspora’ have sets of different meanings. Bringing freedom of speech into this was the most idiotic, and dilettant, thing to do. And, yes, whoever uses a word that none of the Armenians worldwide does in a particular context, is indicative that the person is either non-Armenian or deliberately uses the word in derogatory sense.

  19. “I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia . See if you can do it. Send them into the desert without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will not laugh, sing and pray again. For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a New Armenia.”

    Yerevanian, you don’t owe these guys anything. They are way to sensitive to have a rational discussion with. They will jump on meanings and take them to the extreme and harass you. Based on personal experience, it’s hard not not reply to them. But I think that’s the best course to take.

    They are insulted by their interpretation of the words “tribe” (a word used in many contexts and loose definitions), but have no qualms about doubting your Armenian heritage and even calling them Turkophiles. They are online bullies.

    “Actually, it’s only been you and your small tribe of fellow Russian nationalists who’ve put forth this extremely foolish rationale.”

    Most people here will see this as a reference to Avery, john, Harutik et al., and not an insult against the Armenian nation.

    It would seem that when two of us meet, we end up bickering and arguing :(

    • In other threads you, Random, would either say that you and I were on the same page on some issues or would decide to engage in lengthy exchanges with me. Now you say that I (you’ve mentioned my name) am “way too sensitive to have a rational discussion with”. Well, then don’t.

      “I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people[…]”

      In this opening sentence of his literary piece, Saroyan first uses the primary meaning of the word ‘race’ with reference to the Armenian people, and then makes reference to its secondary meaning, ‘tribe’, indicating a distinctive close-knit group of people. Both meanings are found in the Oxford English Dictionary. How is it not evident for an intellectual that “this small tribe of unimportant people” doesn’t pertain to how Armenians would call their race or nation, but refers to how others perceived us at the time when the race was systematically exterminated, i.e. “a small group of unimportant people”?

      {Most people here will see this [“it’s only been you and your small tribe of fellow Russian nationalists”] as a reference to Avery, john, Harutik et al., and not an insult against the Armenian nation.}

      You didn’t even care to read our comments above. No one here ever wrote that this was an insult against the Armenian nation. On the contrary, I, for one, wrote that to use ‘tribe’ as ‘group’ in this sentence (derogatory for certain posters, not the nation) is correct based on the secondary meaning that the Oxford English Dictionary provides.

      But to use the word ‘tribe’ in its primary meaning to describe Armenians of RoA and Artskah, as well as Armenian Diasporan communities, demonstrates that the poster is either (a) a non-Armenian; or (b) has put in a derogatory implication.

      Random, as a non-sensitive, rational Armenian, as you claim to be, and if you are at home in Armenian, how many times have you heard this: “hayastantsi, artsakhtsi, libananahay, parskahay, siriahay, rusahay, fransiahay, amerikahay, and all the other Armenian tribes.” Or, in Armenian translation: “հայաստանցի, արցախցի, լիբանանահայ, պարսկահայ, սիրիահայ, ռւսահայ, ֆրանսահայ, ամերիկահայ եւ բոլոր այլ հայկական ցեղերը”?

    • Random Armenian,

      I had totally forgotten about this beautiful piece of literature by our beloved William Saroyan. And right there on that first line, he does indeed refer to our Armenian people as a “small tribe.” You are indeed a genius to bring all of this to our attention. As for those two desperate denialists, I would like to see what sort of absurdities they come up with now to go against all this? Are they possibly going to suggest that William Saroyan was a Turkophile?

    • “In this opening sentence of his literary piece, Saroyan first uses the primary meaning of the word ‘race’ with reference to the Armenian people, and then makes reference to its secondary meaning, ‘tribe’, indicating a distinctive close-knit group of people. Both meanings are found in the Oxford English Dictionary. How is it not evident for an intellectual that “this small tribe of unimportant people” doesn’t pertain to how Armenians would call their race or nation, but refers to how others perceived us at the time when the race was systematically exterminated, i.e. “a small group of unimportant people”?”

      Valid interpretation of Saroyan’s quote that I agree with. He’s speaking in the voice of odars. But, ‘tribe’ can have multiple meanings and usages as discussed. One can use ‘tribe’ loosely and mean ‘race’ or ‘nation’ within the context of all of humanity. Where the concept of nations is de-emphasized to show that we are all ultimately part of a common humanity. One can call all groups/nations a ‘tribe’ to emphasize that ultimately we are all human and how petty racism, hatred and war really is. And that’s something sorely missing in this world today. It has always been missing in human history.

      “But to use the word ‘tribe’ in its primary meaning to describe Armenians of RoA and Artskah, as well as Armenian Diasporan communities, demonstrates that the poster is either (a) a non-Armenian; or (b) has put in a derogatory implication.”

      That’s not clear based on the older Yerevanian quote you posted. I have not seen Yerevanian’s post in its entirety however. It’s not clear to me Yerevanian was being derogatory here. As strong as our bonds are within the global Armenian nation, there is a darker side of divisions and antagonism within us. And this is based on geography as well as political affiliation. And that side can be self-destructive. Can’t one use the word ‘tribe’ or ‘tribal’ to describe this darker side of us?

      “Random, as a non-sensitive, rational Armenian, as you claim to be,”

      I make no such claims. I try my best. I get upset and sensitive like most, but I see far more of this from you and Avery and Harutik and very prone to put down and insult others. Strong disagreements is one thing, but animosity against each other just makes it hard to discuss anything.

  20. Good job finding that quote by William Saroyan, Random Armenian. I suppose, under our Self Appointed Patriots’ logic, Saroyan is not an Armenian either.

    • Yes, a-ha, and Lemkin was not the inventor of the term ‘genocide’ based on blending -geno (race) and -cide (killing).

    • For some a lot of Armenians are not Armenians because they have a very narrow view of what an Armenian.

      There are such attitudes in all groups. Like the Scots, as in “No true Scotsman would do that” syndrome :)

    • {For some a lot of Armenians are not Armenians because they have a very narrow view of what is an Armenian.}

      And those other “some”, who think they have “broader” view on what is an Armenian, appear to readily and unconditionally accept the following?

      1. {“hayastantsi, artsakhtsi, libananahay, parskahay, siriahay, rusahay, fransiahay, amerikahay, and all the other Armenian tribes.”}
      2. {“Garegin Nzhdeh called his movement “Tseghakron,” i.e. “the religion of the tribe.” Meaning, Nzhdeh referred to Armenians as a tribe.”}
      3. {“I don’t have to make comments on every little thing [US rep’s official anti-Armenian statement] that goes in the Armenian world.”}
      4. {““nkr” is not a large territory. As I stated earlier, it’s a pathetic little piece of aborted fetus (geopolitically speaking, of course).”}
      5. {“unlike the thugs in the pathetic state of “Armenia” (oh, and in that terrorist entity called “nkr”.)”}
      6. {“ Most likely, these thugs from “Karabakh” and the “Fund” would end up with broken bones or worse. Which is bound to happen sooner or later. That, or the Azeris will invade and rape these thugs when the people are gone. I personally prefer the first option.”} (Last three points are taken from a comment by poster ‘Avery’.)

      The quotes above clearly indicate that their authors have “broader” view of what is an Armenian. Right, Random? Is this what you’re saying?

    • [“The quotes above clearly indicate that their authors have “broader” view of what is an Armenian”]

      Yes, what sets us, broad-viewed Armenians from self-appointed patriots (SAPs) is that we do not shy away from attacking entities that hurt our people, no matter how “sacred” they are viewed by the SAPs. One such broad-viewed and courageous person is Svetlana Alexievich, a Belorussian writer who exposes Putin-the-thug and her own country’s dark realities, and who just received Nobel Prize in literature.
      http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-10-08/nobel-got-it-right-go-read-svetlana-alexievich
      These are the people that are recognized for their contributions to humanity, not parrots repeating the inane line “how many Armenians would say this?”

      By the way, after the brutal beatings at Berdzor, anyone whole-heartedly supporting the entity called “nkr” should reexamine who or what he is working for.
      https://armenianweekly.com/2015/02/02/berdzor/

  21. Many comments. None moves the needle.
    I wonder how many of these commentators have taken two minutes of their time and visited http://www.marchtojustice.org/nkpeace.
    It is easy to do. Just do it. I assure you it will have a lot more weight and put the right pressure on the OSCE- Minsk group.
    For those who have signed the petition, thank you.
    For those who have not yet signed, please do it now.
    Vart Adjemian

  22. {And right there on that first line, he does indeed refer to our Armenian people as a “small tribe.”}

    If you opened your eyes wider, you’d notice that right there on that first line Saroyan does indeed refer to Armenian people as ‘race’, and only then uses ‘tribe’ and only in reference to a group of people who were considered unimportant in the eyes of others… so unimportant that their “wars have all been fought and lost, structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered.” You and your tribe (using the second definition of ‘tribe’ by Oxford Dictionary as “distinctive close-knit group of people”) should have a capacity to understand the true meaning of Saroyan’s piece, and not pick on one word by virtue whereof you [plural] so desperately attempt to persuade the Armenians that they call our co-ethnics in the RoA, Artsaklh, and the Diasporan communities ‘tribes’.

    Again, how many times have you [plural], as Armenians (right?), have heard the following expression: “հայաստանցի, արցախցի, լիբանանահայ, պարսկահայ, սիրիահայ, ռւսահայ, ֆրանսահայ, ամերիկահայ եւ բոլոր այլ հայկական ցեղերը”?

    The clock’s ticking…

  23. “If you opened your eyes wider, you’d notice that right there on that first line, Saroyan does indeed refer to Armenian people as ‘race,’ and only then uses ‘tribe’ and only in reference to a group of people who were considered unimportant in the eyes of others.”

    As usual, you’re continuing to shoot yourself in the foot, because in that first line, nowhere does William Saroyan state that the Armenian race is considered a small tribe by other peoples. In fact, he never stated this in any of the other lines either. You have a very bad habit of inventing things that people never said. Furthermore, how can one rule out the high possibility that by using the word, “tribe,” in reference to the Armenian people, he was referring to that particular definition which has to do with a group of people who have the same cultural identity?

    Since you were curious to know how many times I’ve heard the following expression (made by an Armenian other than myself)of “hayastantsi, artsakhtsi, libananahay, parskahay, siriahay, rusahay, fransiahay, amerikahay, and all the other Armenian tribes” (not exactly in that particular order though, with the javakhktsi tribe also included), the answer is four times. And again, based on those definitions that I provided you from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, it is therefore not wrong to refer to those various Armenian groups as “Armenian tribes.”

    “But to use the word, ‘tribe,’ to describe Armenians of RoA and Artsakh, as well as Armenian Diasporan communities, demonstrates that the poster is either (a) a non-Armenian; or (b) has put in a derogatory implication.”

    Your inventions are getting more and more foolish with each passing day. Anyway, since you still continue to demonstrate very little capability in reading simple English, I will again take the time to read for you what it says in that article from TourArmenia.com.

    “The Armenians are an Indo-European race made up of tribes that long inhabited the Armenian plateau.”

    “Tribes formed the essence of the Armenian culture from its inception, and to some, it continues to cause challenges.”

    So, are you actually trying to suggest that TourArmenia.com is being derogatory towards the Armenian people by making those two statements, and is truly not an Armenian website? Well, this again shows your desperation.

    Once again, two pieces of literature were delivered to you in which Armenians used the word, “tribe,” in reference to the Armenian people, which therefore makes you look horribly silly after making the statement of “No Armenian would ever speak of Armenian communities as tribes.”

    • Nice proverb! It actually reminds me of this puny little Russian guy who was singing a famous oldies song by Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (Why Do Fools Fall in Love) inside the McDonalds john the other day. Anyway, while I was washing my hands at the sink, I happened to ask him, “Hey loco, with whom have you fallen in love?” And his response was, “I’ve fallen in love with myself.” What a fool indeed!

  24. After we have seen no vehement objections to the fact that Armenian diasporas (հայկական համայնքներ կամ հայկական սփյուռք) are called ‘communities’ and not ‘tribes’, except for one ‘real’ Armenian whose silliness has become widely known in these pages, let me reiterate who were the ‘tribes’ that had intruded into the region of Western Asia (Asia Minor) and the Caucasus and whose modern descendants now inhabit two chunks of these historical regions.

    The word ‘tribe’ is used here in its abridged primary definition offered by Oxford and Merriam-Webster dictionaries.
    Oxford: 1. ‘a social division in a society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader (e.g. indigenous Indian tribes)’.
    Merriam-Webster: 1. ‘a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers.’ The word ‘tribe’ is also used here in its full academic definition as generally accepted by scholars in the fields of anthropology, ethnohistory, sociology, indigenous rights studies, etc., that is: “a social group that existed before the development of, or outside of, states; a distinct people, who are dependent on their land for their livelihood, who are largely self-sufficient, and not integrated into the national society, ‘those which have followed ways of life for many generations that are largely self-sufficient, and are clearly different from the mainstream and dominant society’ (from “Tribal Peoples for Tomorrow’s World”).”

    Based on these linguistic, scholarly, and empirical definitions, the tribes in the above-mentioned regions are originally the Ghuzz or Turkmen clans, also known as Oghuzes or Oghuz Turks, who lived during the early medieval period in a Turkic tribal confederation conventionally called Yabghu Khaganate in the Kazakh Steppe of Turkestan (Central Asia and the Altay Mountains). During the 10th century AD, due to nomadic wandering and armed invasions westward, one of those Oghuz clans, the Seljuks, had come into contact with Muslim cities and gradually adopted Persian and Arabic cultures. After the armed intrusion into Asia Minor in 1071 AD (Battle of Manzikert), the Seljuks have also added to their adopted culture the cultures of other local populations, such as the Byzantine Greeks, the Armenians, the Assyrians, etc.

    As a result of invasions into the lands belonging for millennia to the indigenous sedentary peoples, today in the regions of Western Asia (Asia Minor) and the Caucasus the bulk of the populations of Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Iranian Azerbaijan are the descendants of the Central Asian Oghuz Turkic tribes.

  25. Actually, I haven’t noticed any vehement objections by my fellow Armenians in regard to the word, “tribes,” being attached to the various groups of Armenians which make up the Armenian Nation. It’s only been that one member of the Russian nationalist tribe (vehemently pretending to be Armenian) who’s been so enormously antagonistic this whole entire time (along with another member who’s been mildly antagonistic). And, the foolishness of this particular person is just totally outrageous. His desperation in attempting to falsely establish that the word, “tribe,” is derogatory and can only be used in reference to the Turkic peoples, again shows his enormous lack of education. Once again, contrary to his intense effort to deny everything, those two definitions of the word, “tribe,” which I provided from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary (“a group of people that includes many families and relatives who have the same language, customs, and beliefs,” and “a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest”) along with my presentation of that TourArmenia.com article, fully support the statement I made in regard to the various Armenian tribes which make up the Armenian Nation: hayastantsi, artsakhtsi, libananahay, parskahay, siriahay, rusahay, fransiahay, amerikahay, and all the other Armenian tribes.

  26. Enough is enough. USE WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, POLITICALLY OR WHATEVER, to go after those renegades, teach them a lessen they won’t forget, take over “our” former country and oil and progress on our own. God be with us! Movses Movsesian,USA

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