WASHINGTON (A.W.)—An Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) delegation headed by ARF Bureau member Khatchig Mouradian met with Armenia’s President Serge Sarkisian on May 6.
ARF Eastern Region Central Committee chair Hayg Oshagan and member Hovsep Avakian were part of the delegation that engaged in an hour-long discussion of issues surrounding Armenia’s domestic concerns and foreign policy; the Syrian crisis, especially as it relates to Syrian Armenians; the Republic of Artsakh; the U.S.-Armenia Trade and Investment Framework Agreement (TIFA); and the Armenian Genocide Centennial commemorations in the U.S. and worldwide.
Armenia’s Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian, Armenia’s Ambassador to the U.S. Tigran Sargsyan, and Chief of Staff Vigen Sargsyan took part in the meeting. Also in attendance was Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) Executive Director Aram Hamparian.
I hope they discussed the fact that it was inappropriate, unwise and unwarranted to declare to the Turkish press on April 24, 2015, that Armenia has no territorial claims from Turkey >>> http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2015/04/24/president-interview/
Please read the interview carefully and then make glib charges. The President did NOT say Armenia has no territorial claims on Turkey; he said Armenia has never DECLARED any territorial claims on Turkey, which is true. So, don’t jump on inappropriate conclusions.
He also says, land claim issue is not on his agenda, which I believe is a true statement , because he still supports the protocols today which call on Armenia to ratify the current borders with Turkey.
You cannot have it both ways;
– Willingness to ratify the protocols, thus recognizing the current borders with Turkey,
– Then change your mind and proceed with land claims in the future?
Now if you read my initial remarks carefully, I was hoping that our representatives that met the president raised this issue with him, meaning, if the panorama article, or the translation of it is incorrect, then the president owes us an explanation.
Like hell we don’t. Thanks Sarkis, I did not know about this. AS long as we live on this earth we have 100% right not only to claim Territorial, but also historical, stolen properties, artefacts, archives, our churches & many other important stuff which belongs to the Armenian people.
Sarkisyan number one had no right to speak from his head speaking for all Armenians to Turkey that we have no territorial claims. No. Two he is not in authority to be able to nor he is prepared to know how our knowledgeable historians that are working towards our claims through the league of nations.
Wow! in what century was this picture taken in? 15? Couldn’t you guys at least put a “token” woman in the picture—in the corner….taking notes? This picture so captures the ugly reality of Armenia—“boys club” politics that had to say something.
Herosoohi you are absolutely right.
What a shame that Pres. Sarkisian statement that we have no land claims with Turkey. Not only do we have land claims since the Sevres Treaty is still a valid Treaty signed after WWI by Turkey, Armenia & 16 Allies but also Reparations to the Armenian Nation just as Germany made reparations to the Jews. Also, Turkey must repair & return the 3000 Armenian Churches she destroyed. The Armenian President & Parliament must wake up to reality and demand our just rights once and for all.
Note: before I discuss the matter about territorial claims, people need to be aware that Panorama.am got the English text of the interview from hurriyetdailynews.com.
Hurriyet is a Turk nationalist, Anti-Armenian news site.
The English translation is Turks’: I don’t have what the Pres said in Armenian during the interview.
Turks are notorious for deliberately misquoting when interviewing Armenians.
But we will take it as is.
What the article says is this:
[Q: Does the Republic of Armenia have any territorial claims on Turkey?
A: The Republic of Armenia has never declared any territorial claims either on Turkey, or any other country since our independence. There has never been such an issue on the foreign policy agenda of our country, and there is none today. That is a clear-cut position. We are a fully-fledged and responsible member of the international community. ]
1. {“The Republic of Armenia has never declared any territorial claims either on Turkey, or any other country since our independence”}
Armenians need to learn to become less emotional.
Read the answer again: it is the perfect diplomatic answer.
It is a fact that: “Armenia has never declared any territorial claims either on Turkey, or any other country since our independence”. (“declared” is not the same as “implied”….)
It is a fact that: “There has never been such an issue on the foreign policy agenda of our country, and there is none today.”
All past or present tense: “has never declared…there is none today…”
Did the President say anything about the future ? No.
What do people expect, that the President of a UN member state, in the present geopolitical situation, would say “….we claim Western Armenia.. ” ?
The next day Turkbaijanis would start braying: “…See those Armenians: not only they make claims on ‘our’ Karabagh, but now they lay claim to more ‘Turkish’ lands….”
How do you think that would play on the world stage ?
2. The Declaration of Independence of Armenia says this:
{“ Aware of its historic responsibility for the destiny of the Armenian people engaged in the realization of the aspirations of all Armenians and the restoration of historical justice;”}
RESTORATION of historical justice: OK ?
{“ 11, The Republic of Armenia stands in support of the task of achieving international recognition of the 1915 Genocide in Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia.”}.
Western Armenia: OK ?
3. Constitutional Court RoA expressly invalidated this (infamous) Protocolas provision:
[Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border
between the two countries as defined by the
relevant treaties of international law]….. which was in the original Protocol.
Turks snuck that in as a backdoor way to trick RoA into repudiating any future claims to our Western Armenia.
{Second, as veteran commentator David Petrosian pointed out on January 18, paragraph 5 of the Armenian Constitutional Court argumentation affirms that the protocols “cannot be interpreted…in a way that would contradict the provisions of the preamble to the Republic of Armenian constitution and the requirements of Paragraph 11 of the [1990] Declaration of Independence of Armenia.” That paragraph reads: “The Republic of Armenia is for the international recognition of the Armenian genocide of 1915 committed in Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia.”} (from rferl.org)
I personally would prefer RoA toss the Protocols, but it has to play nice with the Big boys for the time being.
As to Western Armenia in the future: when it is geopolitically and militarily feasible, it will be re-united with RoA.
“Q: What about that promise your President Sargsyan made back in 2015 to Hurriyet ? “
“A: Promise ? What promise. There was no promise. You are confused. You misunderstood. And besides nobody was authorized to promise anything on behalf of the Armenian Diaspora….”
Armenians have been lied to and screwed over for centuries: how many promises made to the Armenian people have been kept ?
Turk officials/leaders routinely lie to us and break not only promises but signed agreements, treaties. (e.g. Lausanne Treaty).
Maybe we can lie a little too ?
Presidents, PMs, FMs lie every day on the world stage: when caught in a lie, they say “….that’s not what I meant…”.
(Read: so sue me)
Armenians are too honest for our own good.
Need to learn to be a little conniving: give them a little bit of their own medicine.
—–
Also see Sassounian:
http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Court_Limits_Protocols%27_Damage_to_Armenian_National_Interests
The confiscation of Western Armenian provinces, which constitute about 90% of historic Armenian homeland, was a direct result of the systematic, premeditated and state-sponsored mass-extermination and genocide of the Armenians living there for thousands of years.
As part of the Final Solution to the Armenian Question, Western Armenia was emptied of its indigenous Armenian population by non-native, blood-thirsty and genocidal Turkish tribes from Central Asia to establish the illegal and fascist state of Turkey in 1923 for the Turks only.
Anyone who thinks the Armenians have no territorial claims from Turkey must be living in another planet. Politics is dirty and politicians make statements they retract all the time. There is not an ounce of doubt in me that there is NO Armenian in the world with true Armenian heart and soul who does not believe the very heartland of Armenia is under Turkish occupation and that it must be liberated.
Having said that, any Armenian who thinks the Armenians have no territorial claims from Turkey is delusional and any Armenian who truly believes the Armenians should not have territorial claims from Turkey should be tried for treason.
Sarkisyan is definitely in the wrong to say we don’t have territorial claims. But also why is he talking like such loser? He does not have to act like a week mouse even thought he looks like one. I think the only reason Putin is not getting rid of him is that there is more things in Armenia to steal?
It’s rather displeasing for any Armenian to read the responses delivered by Serzh Sargsyan in the “Does the Republic of Armenia have any territorial claims on Turkey?” section of that article, put up by Sarkis. Well, if Serzh Sargsyan and his Republican party happen to have no territorial claims whatsoever on Turkey, then that’s their problem; because, the truth of the matter is that the Pan-Armenian community (which Sargsyan and his crew do not represent in any particular way) is fully devoted to getting back our stolen territories from Turkey. As a matter of fact, a legal team is currently being assembled to pursue the matter of territorial claims against Turkey, along with financial reparations and return of stolen properties.
Before we get all excited, is it possible that in “diplomatic language”, Pres. Sargsyan, who does not represent the Armenian Diaspora, is saying: “The Republic of Armenia” does not have territorial claims against the Republic of Turkey”?
The Armenian Diaspora may still claim whatever it believes it is owed. But first, we need to have a duly elected body that represents the Armenian Diaspora in any claims.
Avery’s very long essay to defend what the president has said or not said is simply bandage, or in real diplomatic terms: damage control. This president has goofed from day 1; first, with football diplomacy, then with the protocols which by the way clearly state that Armenia has to recognize the current borders if you want diplomatic relations and an open border. But our president still maintains today, that he would sign them if Turkey signed! So, bye-bye with future land claims.
Sorry, but let’s be serious, I do not think our president is shrewd enough to have meant “we haven’t declared claims in the past…”, but “we might declare them in the future…”. This issue is simply not on his agenda, past present or future, period.
Do you think for one minute, that any diasporan organisation would have enough weight and legitimacy to take Turkey to court for land claims and so on? The first question they would be asked by the opposing party would be: What about your mother country Armenia, sitting at the United Nations, where are they, why aren’t they here by your side?!
Finally, for the short term future, the simple way to avoid a question which might be against Armenia’s and diaspora’s national interests would be to dodge it; the whole world does it except our president. Any outside help by experts to advise our president in question dodging techniques would be welcome.
I’m absolutely not bothered by the president’s statement to the effect that RoA has never declared territorial claims on Turkey and that there has never been such an issue on the country’s foreign policy agenda. What do you expect him to say in the precarious geopolitical, economic, and politico-military climate Armenia finds herself in? What bothers me is his statement welcoming opening the border in the same precarious climate, that is, at the time when the Turkish Republic continues to deny the genocide and supports Azerbaijan militarily, politically, and diplomatically. Open borders, i.e. free flow of people, services, and goods, with unrepentant and larger neighbor can be detrimental for a country like Armenia. For her markets, her national security, her state propaganda, her demographics, etc. It is for this reason, among others, that I vehemently opposed signing of the infamous protocols by Sarkissian’s administration.
@John, the president of Armenia could have responded to that question by saying: This year marked the centennial of the premeditated Armenian Genocide committed by the Turkish government in 1915, as a result of which, the entire indigenous Armenian population was uprooted and removed from its historic homeland, their territories, assets and properties confiscated, and 1,500,000 murdered in cold-blood in the process. You are an intelligent reporter or journalist, so put yourselves in our shoes and I’m sure you will find the answer to your question. In other words, present facts and throw the question back at them. You have made your stand on the issue crystal clear without falling into their trap. End of story.
Furthermore, when you say and I quote “What do you expect him to say in the precarious geopolitical, economic, and politico-military climate Armenia finds herself in?” I must tell you that if we think like that then we have no right to complain and demand that the United States utter the G-word because, based on your logic, they find themselves in a similar situation, for their own self-interests that is, and don’t want to antagonize Turkey and jeopardize the geopolitical importance Turkey plays for their imperialistic agenda in the region.
You can make your case without jeopardizing anything while looking dignified and resolute in matters of facts. You can’t bend the facts just because the situation dictates or demands of you to do so. That is exactly what our adversaries want you to say and that’s why they create the situation to force you to say what you should never say. When you do that you have already lost the battle.
Justice delayed is justice denied!
Ararat,
What does the US’ uttering of the g-word have to do with the fact stated by Sarkissian that RoA had never declared territorial claims on Turkey and that there had never been such an issue on her foreign policy agenda? You mean, the countries that uttered the g-word and/or recognized the genocide have waited until RoA declared territorial claims on Turkey? Recognition and legal claims are, in and of themselves, two different processes. One is mostly of moral nature; the other, obviously, of legal nature. You seem to be mixing apples and oranges.
I wasn’t too happy about the “territorial claims” statement by Sargsyan either since we in the hungry-for-justice diaspora like to hear more forceful language against our genocidal neighbors. But I believe that the real problem would be if any Armenian official says “we recognize the Armenian-Turkish border”. As far as I know, Armenia does not recognize the border, which means Sargsyan was playing their game like Avery pointed out above using diplomatic rhetoric.
For example, when he said “The Republic of Armenia has never declared any territorial claims either on Turkey, or any other country since our independence”, remember that the second phrase was key: or any other country. As an example, this means when the people of Artsakh liberated Artsakh, those liberated lands are NOT territorial claims, the logic being correctly, that what is historic Armenian lands will remain so, and when liberated is not a “territorial claim”. The same principle is against Turkey because if you say “we make territorial demands against Turkey”, it means that you are tacitly or perhaps unconsciously accepting the fact that those lands we are “claiming” are “Turksih lands”. This is the subtle area of diplomatic rhetoric and cat and mouse games. Thus the correct language is, Turkey is illegally occupying Armenian lands and we demand OUR lands, not “Turkish lands”.
In addition, Sargsyan happens to be the current president of Armenia, so it does not mean that is a lifetime position, nor that what he says is cast in stone. I saw the recent pan-Armenian declaration more significant and a better indication of the direction Armenia’s policies will be headed.
[As far as I know, Armenia does not recognize the border]
When a country becomes a UN and/or OSCE member state, she nominally recognizes the borders of other member states. When a country establishes diplomatic relations with other country, she nominally recognizes the borders of that country, unless a provision in the bilateral protocol indicates certain reservations.
“As an example, this means when the people of Artsakh liberated Artsakh, those liberated lands are not territorial claims, the logic being correctly that what is historic Armenian lands will remain so, and when liberated is not a territorial claim. The same principle is against Turkey because if you say, we make territorial demands against Turkey, it means that you are tacitly or unconsciously accepting the fact that those lands we are claiming are Turkish lands.”
Actually, those stolen lands of Western Armenia, along with Ardahan, Kars, Artvin, Ani, and Mount Ararat, were never liberated; as a result, the Pan-Armenian community (Armenian homeland and diaspora) continues to have “territorial claims against Turkey,” and therefore, “demands the return of these stolen lands.” There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this language, and in no way does it imply that the Armenian people are accepting that these lands are Turkish lands. If the Armenian people accepted that these lands were Turkish, they wouldn’t be making territorial claims against Turkey in the first place.
And by continuing to not present any kind of territorial claims against Turkey, as Sargsyan’s been doing all along, he is showing himself to be a coward, who’s totally incapable of fighting for the justice owed to the Armenian people.
I’m, by no means, an admirer of Sarkissian and his administration, but for the sake of objectivity let’s re-read what he has said:
“The Republic of Armenia has never declared any territorial claims either on Turkey, or any other country since our independence.” Well, yes, Armenia has never declared any territorial claims on Turkey. Or has she? Avery is correct in saying that the president is referring to the issue in the past tense.
“There has never been such an issue on the foreign policy agenda of our country, and there is none today.” Yes, territorial claims on Turkey has never been and isn’t RoA’s foreign policy issue. Armenia’s foreign policy doctrine had no such issue to pursue.
What are we arguing?
(Sarkis // May 8, 2015 at 1:24 pm //)
{“ ….because he still supports the protocols today which call on Armenia to ratify the current borders with Turkey.”}
Obviously you either did not read “Avery’s very long essay”, or you have no clue what you are talking about on this issue.
I gave specific citations of Constitutional Court RoA expressly invalidating the border item of the Protocols.
Let me repast the relevant sentence from Mr. Sassounian’s article as reproduced in http://www.armeniapedia.org link I provided in my original post:
(By Harut Sassounian
Publisher, The California Courier
January 21, 2010)
[The Court narrowly interpreted the “open the common border” clause of the Protocols, indicating that Armenia was simply making a commitment “to resolve legal-organizational and institutional issues connected to safeguarding the normal operation of border checkpoints.” Significantly, the Court used the term “checkpoint” rather than “border,” thereby indirectly refusing to accord legal recognition to Armenia’s present boundary with Turkey. Since it was Turkey that closed the border, it alone is responsible for re-opening it. Armenia’s obligation, on the other hand, is limited to simply making the necessary administrative arrangements to permit passage through a checkpoint.]
[The Court ruled that only those international treaties that have been ratified under the constitution of the present Republic of Armenia could be considered legally valid. The clear implication is that border issues regulated by treaties pre-dating the Republic’s existence cannot be considered valid. This interpretation contradicts frequent Turkish declarations that the Protocols reconfirm Armenian territorial concessions to Turkey, specifically referencing the 1921 Treaty of Kars. Indeed, the Court pointedly downplayed the overall significance of these Protocols by mandating that all future treaties that establish and further develop relations between Armenia and Turkey require its specific approval.]
So your assertion that “protocols today which call on Armenia to ratify the current borders with Turkey” is patently false.
If you know it is false, then you are deliberately spreading misinformation.
If you do not know it is false, then all your other assertions regarding this issue carry no weight: if you are misinformed about a key provision of your assertion, what else are you misinformed about regarding this issue ?
What we are arguing about concerns our part time unsolicited legal experts who are speaking for the president and interpreting his words and coming to his rescue.
The spirit of question of the Turkish reporter “Does Armenia have land claims on turkey” did not obviously concern the past, because we would have all known if such claims had been registered. It surely concerns the present and the future.
Please read what the president has presumably said for the last time :
[ There has never been such an issue on the foreign policy agenda of our country, and there is none today. That is a clear cut position. We are a fully-fledged and responsible member of the international community. As a member to the United Nations we recognize our role in the international affairs, we respect the principles of international law, and the same, incidentally, we anticipate from our neighbor to the West ].
1. “No such issue on the foreign policy agenda”: does this mean it is not on the agenda today, but it could be on the agenda tomorrow? does a country change its foreign policy agenda on a day to day basis? Unless you’re running a banana republic of course. Obviously the answer concerned the future.
2. “As a UN member we recognize our role… we respect international law etc.”: again, does this concern the past? and we might stop doing it in the future? Obviously not, the answer concerned the future.
3. “We anticipate the same from our neighbor to the West…”: is this for the past only? So is it OK for Turkey to attack us in the future? Obviously not; all answers concerned the future.
So, to the ad-hoc defense team of the president, I admire your enthusiasm but please cool your jets, and read the president lips. He has stated “I am withdrawing the protocols from the parliament, but I am not withdrawing my signature, because I can bring them back if need be…”, and now we’ve been told this was supposedly to please the “the big boys”. Incidentally, who are the big boys? Is Hillary Clinton a “big boy”? Does Armenia have “big boy” friends?
The president’s answers to the Turkish reporter were clear and honest; they concerned the present and the future, in direct harmony with the spirit of the protocols, which in spite of the giant uproar they caused in the diaspora, the president still believes in them, regardless.
And if he’s outsmarted by Turkey into ratifying them in the future, then you can kiss goodbye to everything we’ve been fighting for; status of the current borders, genocide recognition, restitution and the rest.
[Does a country change its foreign policy agenda on a day to day basis?]
Not on a day to day basis, of course, but it’d be correct to say that foreign policy, as a policy pursued by a country in her dealings with other countries, is not static. It changes over issues fairly often and adjusts to prevailing geopolitical circumstances, conditions, and challenges. Foreign policy also changes with the ideas and ideologies of the authorities in power. Running a banana republic has nothing to do with this. I could provide many examples to illustrate John Kerry’s tendency to go as the wind blows in the American foreign policy. Is Mr. Kerry running the foreign policy of a banana republic?
[john // May 8, 2015 at 4:09 pm //
“When a country becomes a UN and/or OSCE member state, she nominally recognizes the borders of other member states. When a country establishes diplomatic relations with other country, she nominally recognizes the borders of that country, unless a provision in the bilateral protocol indicates certain reservations.”]
Disagree. Being forced to accept borders, and officially recognizing them are two different things. And today’s Turkish borders were mostly drawn with the Treaty of Lausanne, which sovereign Armenia neither was party to nor accepted. And I reiterate, to my knowledge Armenia has never officially recognized the Turkish border. Turkey and Friends tried to get the ball rolling in this respect with the now (almost) dead-in-the-water protocols. And “nominally” does not mean much here, I am talking about the official position of the Armenian government. I hope you are not trying to suggest that the current Armenia-Turkey border is a done deal.
No, I’m not trying to suggest that the current Armenia-Turkey border is a done deal. I only reminded that a country doesn’t have to recognize other countries’ borders in an explicit bilateral manner. When a country joins the UN, she accepts the organization’s Charter, which enforces the principle of territorial integrity of states. The principle imposes an obligation on a member-state to refrain from actions incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter in relation to territorial integrity and the annexation of territory of other member-states. Likewise, the OSCE’s Helsinki Final Act outlines several principles guiding relations among the participating states, two of them being inviolability of frontiers and territorial integrity. RoA has her signature under the Charters of both organizations. Hence, the use of the word ‘nominally’. At the same time, I agree, bilaterally RoA has never recognized the Turkish border. But if tomorrow, hypothetically speaking, diplomatic relations are established and borders open, what would be the official position of the RoA government? When a country establishes diplomatic relations, it automatically recognizes the borders of the other signatory state. And if RoA attempts to insert a provision re: borders in the protocol on the establishment of diplomatic relations, would the Turkish Republic agree?
[Yerevanian // May 9, 2015 at 4:32 am //
Actually, those stolen lands of Western Armenia, along with Ardahan, Kars, Artvin, Ani, and Mount Ararat, were never liberated; as a result, the Pan-Armenian community (Armenian homeland and diaspora) continues to have “territorial claims against Turkey,” and therefore, “demands the return of these stolen lands.” There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this language, and in no way does it imply that the Armenian people are accepting that these lands are Turkish lands. If the Armenian people accepted that these lands were Turkish, they wouldn’t be making territorial claims against Turkey in the first place.
And by continuing to not present any kind of territorial claims against Turkey, as Sargsyan’s been doing all along, he is showing himself to be a coward, who’s totally incapable of fighting for the justice owed to the Armenian people.]
Your points are merely argumentative, as usual. The point I made was from the perspective of what I feel as an Armenian. The point you are making is what Turkey says and thinks and its supporters and so-called “neutral” diplomats, that “Armenians have territorial claims against Turkey”, where it sounds like there is an “air of legitimacy” of the lands Turkey acquired through Genocide. That is very different than if the audience heard “Armenians say their country is under occupation and want those lands returned”. The former is diplomatic psychobabble, the latter is based on truth. The former makes Armenians look belligerent and aggressive, the latter is the opposite and makes the audience understand that Armenians are in no way being aggressive. In this regard, contrary to what you claim, there is everything wrong with that type of speech you use as an Armenian.
As for Sargsyan being a coward and not fighting for Armenian justice, you can’t say that you know what he has to deal with to be going that far with your claim. Yes I want to hear more forceful comments like anyone else, but there are many issues on the table that could all affect one another, including relations with Russia and the resolution of the NKR. Armenia has started out with the worst president but today after two more made significant progress from that dark period. We can be thankful and work on making sure that this trend continues.
“Armenia has started out with the worst president but today after two more made significant progress from that dark period.”
Are you so misguided? Simply put, who brought Robert Kocharian to power? LTP. Who, in turn, brought Serj Sarkissian to power? RK. These are links in one and the same chain. Please…
Having the security in account and at the top of the agenda, one will mostly agree with Mr. President’s answers. Let us not mix the past and present with the future. Although I do agree with most of you above to get to the justice as soon as possible and as a main goal, which I believe that will be the best for everyone including Turkey also.
(Sarkis // May 10, 2015 at 3:13 pm //)
{“ concerns our part time unsolicited legal experts who are speaking for the president and interpreting his words and coming to his rescue.”}
And you repeating false information about the border is what ?
And your part-time legal expertise mis-interpreting and twisting the words of the Pres is ?
{“ So, to the ad-hoc defense team of the president, I admire your enthusiasm but please cool your jets, and read the president lips.”}
Cool our jets ?
Is that part-time or full-time legal expert advice ?
(btw: yours _is_ unsolicited advice to other posters on what to do and how to behave. you have no say in it. or maybe you imagine yourself being an ArmenianWeekly moderator ?)
And to remind you again:
[So your assertion that “protocols today which call on Armenia to ratify the current borders with Turkey” is patently false.
If you know it is false, then you are deliberately spreading misinformation.
If you do not know it is false, then all your other assertions regarding this issue carry no weight: if you are misinformed about a key provision of your assertion, what else are you misinformed about regarding this issue ?]
Pretty comical for posters, sitting in their safe offices, calling the RoA President “coward”, “mouse”,……
How many of you keyboard-warriors have been anywhere near a battlefield ?
President Sargsyan participated in the liberation of Artsakh in uniform as a commander: how many square meters of historic Armenian lands have _you_ liberated ?
The Gov of Armenia is responsible for the safety and security of Republic of Armenia _and_ NKR.
Both RoA and NKR leaderships have to tread very carefully and measure what they say in public, despite the regular provocations coming from the Turkic camp: they are responsible for the lives of 3+ million Armenians in the only remaining piece of Armenian land controlled and populated by Armenians.
How many Armenians’ lives are you responsible for ?
Pretty easy to make bombastic statements, when you yourself will suffer no consequences.
If war breaks out again, how many of you guys calling an NKR war veteran vile names will volunteer to go to NKR and fight ?
You say you will ?
OK then, why wait. Go now: Armenian young men are being killed by Turk trained Turkbaijanis every week at the LOC.
Go and take their place.
How about it guys.
Hagop,
By persistently attempting to falsely establish that I, along with the rest of the Armenian Nation are wrong in having territorial demands against Turkey, actually shows that you support the Turkish government’s position that the Armenian people are totally wrong in making any kind of demands upon Turkey.
You also don’t seem to comprehend that when I say “stolen Armenian lands,” I’m precisely referring to Western Armenia, along with the Eastern Armenian lands of Ardahan, Kars, Artvin, Ani, and Mount Ararat which are all under Turkish occupation. And because these Armenian lands are under Turkey’s occupation, and because I, along with the rest of the Armenian Nation want our stolen lands back, we will therefore continue to have territorial demands against Turkey. Exactly how does this make the Armenian people look belligerent and aggressive? The Armenian people have every right to demand what is rightfully theirs. Your theories, as usual, don’t make the slightest bit of sense.
In regard to Serzh Sargsyan, presenting territorial demands against Turkey has absolutely nothing to do with Russia nor NKR. As the president of Armenia, why is it so wrong for him to stand up like a brave Armenian and make territorial demands upon Turkey for all those stolen Armenian lands which still continue to be under its possession? Where’s the harm in all of this? On the contrary, he has every right in the world to do this. April 24th, 2015 was another opportunity for Sargsyan to present the Armenian Nation’s territorial demands upon Turkey, and he again failed to do it. By continuing to delay all of this, as he’s been doing up to now, the justice owed to the Armenian people continues to be denied.
“Armenia has started out with the worst president but today after two more made significant progress from that dark period. We can be thankful and work on making sure that this trend continues.” Well, in the department of Armenia’s armed forces, there has certainly been a great deal of progress since the administration of Levon Ter-Petrossian. In addition, there have also been many new constructions in Armenia’s capital city (Yerevan) since that period of time, giving it a more elegant and colorful look. But other than that, there hasn’t been much other progress. If we look at the Republic of Armenia today, 1/3rd of its population lives in poverty; its unemployment rate is almost fifty percent; its health care system continues to be in miserable shape; and opportunities are just not abundant for so many of its citizens. All of this, explains the reason why over a million people have emigrated out of Armenia since its independence in 1991, and are still continuing to emigrate out of the country in such large numbers on a yearly basis. This, by itself, is a huge threat to Armenia’s national security. What sort of a future can the Republic of Armenia possibly have with so many of its people departing it year after year, resulting in a population decline which has been continuous since its independence in 1991? All of this, is certainly not the definition of progress, nor is there anything to be thankful for in Serzh Sargsyan’s administration. On the contrary, his administration has been discouraging, along with the other two before him.
But anyway, let’s all hope and pray together at our local Armenian Apostolic Church that this depressing situation will eventually come to an end, and that instead, the Republic of Armenia will find a way to begin to improve itself and significantly progress.
{“But if tomorrow, hypothetically speaking, diplomatic relations are established and borders open, what would be the official position of the RoA government? When a country establishes diplomatic relations, it automatically recognizes the borders of the other signatory state. And if RoA attempts to insert a provision re: borders in the protocol on the establishment of diplomatic relations, would the Turkish Republic agree?”}
John:
RoA has already (as of 2010) officially and legally addressed the matter with the “border” via the CC of RoA.
Please see my posts above regarding that issue.
In brief, Republic of Armenia is ready to open “checkpoints” with Republic of Turkey unconditionally.
No more, no less: without any recognition of anything.
Open “checkpoints”, if Turks so desire (….they won’t).
(I agree with you otherwise: don’t see any reason for RoA to open the border with Turkey, but am not a citizen of RoA, so have no say in it).
The Republic of Armenia is also ready to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey. Any conventional protocol on the establishment of diplomatic relations includes mutual recognition of borders of both signatories. How does RoA go about this, if this happens?
I’m ok with the language Serge used. He hasn’t recognized the borders. Its political speak. Our focus as a people should be complete genocide recognition (by the US and Turkey). Reparations are the next phase. That’s where we push our claims. Mixing the two phases might jeopardize our cause. And we have a complete right to do so. I think everyone who loves Armenia knows that Western Armenia is just as important to the future survival of Armenians as Artsakh. I’m sure the former Artsakh veterans know this too. The Present geography of Armenia was meant to keep us dependent and subject to our neighbors (mainly Turkey). Western Armenia is the key to our future.
Avery,
Actually, during my last visit to Armenia, I did happen to refer to Serzh Sargsyan as being a “coward” over in Yerevan’s Liberty Square. More precisely, I shouted it while standing next to a crowd of about fifty people. Although they were a bit surprised, nobody seemed to have a problem with it. And then I proceeded to tell the crowd that I would be a much better president than that little mouse of Serzh. That second statement, they really enjoyed. As a matter of fact, this one particular young lady was so turned on that she invited me to have coffee with her at a coffee shop; and then afterward, she invited me to her apartment for more coffee.
On the subject of Serzh Sargsyan, just because he happened to participate in the Artsakh War, does not make him brave. By wearing an army uniform, possessing a rifle, and shooting at the enemy, does not automatically make a person courageous. And in all wars, you do end up having soldiers who turn out to be total cowards. Anyway, going back to the Artsakh War, I would like to remind you that the vast majority of those Artsakh War veterans are firmly opposed to Sargsyan’s administration, and do indeed think that he’s a coward for allowing Putin to dominate and control him the way he does.
There is no point in calling a person names. Nothing can change before the end of the current presidential term. As ‘hayandantsies’ have told me, their ‘Ishkhanoutyun’ come from the same background. They have not been elected because of their extraordinary inspirational oratory skills (like our Oshagan for example), or their patriotism and their great love of their countrymen, their academic training in political science or law, their impressive CVs and previous achievements in socio-economics, no, none of the above; they’ve simply grabbed power, and governed by threats, intimidation, bribery and corruption. LTB was the first to bring out the tanks against his people; RK was (the only one in the room with the shooter) when negotiating the latter’s surrender after the Parliament killings; SS had his share of bloody turmoil after the elections of 2008. We can only hope that these people will sink into oblivion and fade away without leaving a legacy behind, and a new breed of politicians will emerge in the next generation… Halas, even if this sounds like wishful thinking.
Now, coming back to the basic topic of this posting which was to find out if the issue of land claims with the Turkish reporter was raised at the meeting with the president; I wish to ask to all those who (there weren’t that many) vehemently defended the president,to let us know if they personally believe, that:
[ The RoA should have a land claim issue on its agenda ], knowing that the issue would be difficult and sensitive.
By a [ YES ], or a [ NO ], without having to write a three page essay in creative writing. Silence will be tantamount to [ I don’t know? ], which is OK.