By Eva Medzorian
On the evening of Dec. 4, a small group of concerned Armenians assembled at the Holy Trinity Armenian Church hall in Cambridge, Mass., to listen to presentations by Der Dajad Davidian, Eva Medzorian, and others on the escalating violence on Armenia’s north-eastern border with Azerbaijan, primarily in the former Shamshadin region of the Tavoush Marz, with its epicenter in the town of Berd.
The evening began with a presentation by Der Dajad, newly returned from that region. Since having retired several years ago as the pastor of the St. James Church in Watertown, Der Dajad has spent most of his time in Armenia working on spiritual revival of the population, especially the youth. He presented an overview of the geography and ancient history of the Berd region, with all its splendor, glory, and breathtaking beauty. He followed with a grim presentation of the violence and vengeance thrust upon the area by the aggressive Azeris on the border who, since independence and without provocation, have been attacking innocent Armenian civilians. He described what is in reality a David and Goliath scenario, with the Berd region’s 30,000 villagers facing off against Azerbaijan’s 1 million-plus heavily armed villagers on the border. Der Dajad reported that the population of the Berd area, mostly youth and even entire families, are leaving the area for economic and personal safety. Unless this situation is corrected, he predicted dire circumstances for the region. In fact, the Azeris could eventually walk right into Armenia and take our lands, which he said is their goal.
A 20-minute documentary video was then shown, produced by Medzorian, with footage taken during her visits in May and September/October, focusing on the town of Berd and five villages, Nerkin Garmir Aghbyur, Aykebar, Movses, Chinari, and Artsvaberd. Also included were archival video clips from Armenia of the destruction in the early 1990’s during the Karabagh War—which spilled over to this area by aggressive Azeri destructive action—as well as videos of scenery, children, schools and houses bombed by Katusha missiles, and interviews with eyewitness residents.
The video showed how these incidents are accelerating; for example, in May 2012, a band of Azeri soldiers slipped into Armenia at nighttime, ambushed a vehicle, killed three Armenians, and fled back. That same month, another band of Azeri soldiers crossed the border at the Armenian border village of Chinari and sprayed the exterior walls of a kindergarten with bullets. There are still daily intermittent sniper attack on civilians. In May 2012, one of these snipers struck Vajakan Melkoumyan, a local farmer, while he was working his fields. He has lost use of one of his legs, and is no longer able to put food on the table for his family.
Knights of Vartan Grand Commander Nigoghos Atinizian also spoke about the importance of the region; proposed that the Knights and Daughters of Vartan focus on the development of the Tavoush marz with an emphasis on the Berd region; and listed some important projects in the area already under way by the Knights.
Berd native Victor Hayapetian gave a few remarks about the region and his personal experiences and passion for the area. Hayapetian is a creative individual and dedicated Armenian, who has already invested considerable funds in the renovation of the Berd cinema, “Averaberd,” into a modern, state-of-the-art facility complete with an internet cafe and a modern cafe/restaurant. In less than two years, Arevaberd has become the meeting place for young and old alike, has hosted banquets, and has sparked other investors to undertake developments of their own. Berd is a tourist paradise with its sweet, clean air, gorgeous landscapes, and intelligent, friendly people. A newly elected mayor, Haroutiun Manoucharyan, has many down-to-earth ideas and plans for its revitalization. He is reputed to have healthy work ethics, and promises to bring prosperity to Berd and stem the outflow of its citizens.
Jack Medzorian reported on another project by the Knights of Vartan that assists a local village hospital in Artsvaberd village. This project is underway, a fundraiser is in progress, and his Knights of Vartan volunteer team is busy packing a 40-foot container of supplies and equipment. Medzorian met with the newly appointed Armenian Minister of Health in October 2012 to enlist his support. The minister promised to complete the renovations of this hospital, especially as it is in a strategic, “de facto war” zone.
An important local figure in the Berd region is Der Aram Mirzoyan, a young pastor assigned by the Vehapar two years ago to bring about a spiritual revival of the area. He has already begun the construction of a new, magnificent church, the St. Gevorg Church, in the center of Berd on the same street as the Arevaberd Cinema, to replace the one that was destroyed by the communists during the early 1920’s. The benefactor of this church was the late John Stevens from Fresno, Calif., who donated nearly $1 million for the project. Der Aram looks after his community’s spiritual needs while also helping to revitalize the economy, and meet his people’s health, education, and cultural needs. In a short time he has become a true pillar of the church, and a community leader.
In this Holy Christmas season, when we celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus, and we rejoice, let us not forget that Armenia is in danger on its borders and that we, Diasporan Armenians, must unite to offer our assistance, in whatever form we chose, before it is too late. Christianity itself is in great peril, with all the hatred, anger, and vengeance in the hearts and minds of Armenia’s neighbor, Azerbaijan.
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What are we going to do about this?? Meetings, slogans, opinions and demonstrations are the sign of the weak. How many times are we going to get beaten??
Having had various friends of turkic origin in the Middle East, One important thing I learned about them was:-
They never ¨surrender¨ so to say.That is , for example you beat them in warfare, in the boxing rink, or wrestling -no not official ones- just amongst groupos etc,they will come up and say that was not fair or else, you have not won,my back was not touching ground (an example)
Also if you hit them hard and they fall over, they will stand up later and claim they were not beaten or .You did not win…
Same applies to this STYLE OF KEEPING THE ISSUE OF NOT HAVING LOST WAR IN KARABAGH,BWE SIGNED CEASEFIRE WITH THE ERMENIS.
All latter unfortunately due to us having a president at the time LTP,a man of letters indeed,but not a man with cojones, to pick up the red phone and tell Tavarish(at the time both were still in the soviet union) declare SURRENDER!!!! and in fact recognize Artsakh is Armenian and was erroneously by Uncle Josef Stalin given to us to supervise over…
mind you latter did not outright have NK as part of Azerbaijan but under their superviision….
and now these azerbaboon-as someone else put it-are getting up and saying w e are not beatsen and thence the Frontier line sporadi shootings,rather coninuous one at that to irritate us and sort of keep their people encouraged that they will start war and win back under their rul NK.
My foot!!! we also know that great Turkey has put all its pressure on little brother Azerbijan that they keep up the pressure on the borders, so as armenians after recognition of Artsakh N.Karabagh by others will not turn towards AHGTAMARA,VAN BITLIS, KARS NAKHIJEVAN..
Armenians should begin to understand their mentality….
They even still hope to be able to enter EU.Indeed we ought not be worried about that even if they succeed,we should rejoice-later-when the Euros have had real tastge of the Turks….act otherwise..
Now let me comment on the article above.It certainly is lamentable what our brethren and sisters go through in the Tavoush Region.Very eloquently written description of the situation .But why ???why no Armenian here on this forum at least does not comment as to a REMEDY…before like it says above the Azeris will just WALK INTO ARMENIA…..WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE WE ???just Derder, Orators, writers, Bfrafessors NO WARRIORs,no ntelligent service oriented young men to find out what should be planning our both Homeland and Diaspora executives…just going there as Knights of Vartan to help procure-as an example-school tables for children etc,m movie theaters,like above mentioned…
While I do appreciate that the AW, has at least given us this Forum where to comment and they read and approve or reject what we write,I ´m at a loss why someone A FOOL LIKE SELF IS TRYING HARD ..i HAVE JSUT FINISHED AND EMAILED 3 PAGES OF MY VIEWPOINTS AS TO….PLANNING for a NEW STATUTE FOR THE ARMENIAN DIASPORA, MOBILIZATION as:-
1.gET TOGETHER AROUND pca´S PROF.COLLEAGUES aSSOC., FORM rANK AND fILE( I AM NOT AGAINST ANY aRMENIAN ESTABLISHMENT CONTINUEING HARD,FACT IS i HOPE AND PRAY TO gOD THEY DO SO..bUT WHAT THEY A RE DLOING IS VERY LITTLE AS TO WHAT MYSELF.I suggest establishment of an H U G E NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND, NUCLEUS OF WHICH BY OUR 5/6 MAGNATES TO START IT WITH A BILLION DOLLARS INPUT, THEN THE MILLINMAIRES ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE HUNDRED DOLALRS INVESTORS..
2.FIRS PROGRAMME IS TO ORGANIZE A REAL REPATRIATION ,LOANING FROM SAID FUND TO THOSE WHO WILL DECIDE TO REPATRIATE!!! low interst say of 4% for TEN yrs duration<.
3. young and youth coming to aarmenia not ari tun¨¨Formality one but thousands of them FIRST BE GRANTED RA SPECIAL PASSPORTS(A RPIDE INSPIRAING ACT)at a cost of 75 or 100 dollars ,which then would go to families in armneia who would host them for a month.THESE KIDS WOULD UNDERGO BESIDES LANGUAGE,CULUTRE HISTORY MILITARY CADET TRAINING ALONGSIDE THE NEWLY RECRUITED CALLED ZORAGOCHIK IN RA…
4.In Diaspora we have had no such thing as COUNTER INTELLIGENCE, time we started it,There are many Turks amongst us with armenian passports(When Azeris left armenia some 150,000 at the very least 1000 or so of them remained…some probably left with the passports of r.of armenia and now inforeign countreis working for turco azeri intelligence!!!!
We don´t even have the counter intelligence elt alone intelligence.A necessity.what these do , they talk like this¨¨WE ARMENIANSS WILL NEVER UNITE, WE ARE NOT UNITED.. so on so forth.
Most importantly we can begin buying space IN ALL EURO AMERICAN IMPORTANT NEWSPAPER CONDUCT INTERVIEWS ON T.V. CHANNELDS ,,,BUT THESE COST MONEY .We cannot relyu on our meare fundlings..which anyhow are not spending anything likewise…
So think of abofve not JUST LAMENTING OVER WHAT DER HAIR HAS PREPARED.iNDEED WE EXTEND OUR DEEP THANKS TO HIM AND kNIGHTS OF vaRTAN but a c t i o n is neeeded,not oratory!!!!
AM TIRED HOEP YOUNG WILL TAKE OVER ANED OCNTINUE WHAT I ADVOCATE!!!!please
I near forgot..though above above I started saying I sent in 3 pages , very well written inARMENIAN TO OUR PRESS..
Will they publish it is another Question,since I am no partisan.Respect all of them but they are very careless about suggestions come from non partisans..
I am still hope full they wioll publish otherwise , as long as I have power in my fingers shall write and advocate as above and email to more than a few hundred and this over REQUES T THEM TO SEND TO OTHERS…
For any Armenian saying goes when many clever cannot do somethign a half wit like me will do it!!!!
The above article mentions that Azeris are crossing the border during nighttime. Of course its difficult to have our soldiers in every village everytime. Our military leadership should think about the Military in Switzerland. In Switzerland every soldier that has passed his military service has to take his rifle with him to home. That means that all soldiers can be recruited again in a few hours !
What if our military is develloping something similar ? In every village some 5 or 7 retired soldiers have their weapons at home. In case of an attack they can inform each other by mobile and so an enemy attack can be stopped quickly !
Armenia needs to hit back and/or stop negotiations. This will bring the Mink Group to possibly do something about this.
I wonder how many of the bullets that Azeris use to kill Armenians come from Russia and its friends, Ukraine and Belarus.
Don’t “wonder” about the bullets. Take a look at the US Department of Defense contract solicitations. They use The Diaspora’s tax money to arm and train Azeri snipers. The night attackers use sophisticated American night vision equipment. This is all openly and proudly published on their website.
And the Azeri commandos who venture into Armenia are trained by NATO instructors in Turkey.
@voskanapat, the US is prohibited from supplying weapons to AZ, what are the types (and origin) of bullets killing Armenian soldiers? The long range sniper rifles are only made by a few countries like the US,Russia and possibly Israeli.
I’ve been asking for months for the RoA to release information on the caliber and type of weapons their using.
If they’re American, someone needs to bring a box of these bullets into our new Ambassadors office and dump it on his desk. If he shrugs his shoulders in disbelief, you might try borrowing a very effective diplomatic tactic developed by the Russians by pounding your shoe to get his attention.
If you want us to take action against our Govt., give us what we need to press them (hard evidence).
My guess is that those bullets are Russian made. What’s the truth? Dee’s question is still unanswered.
To WR and DEE,
I do second you both.Fact is believe it or not myself written to our Armenian press to have All Armenians in RA,/Artskah who have served their military 2 years,be considered as A RESERVE CORPS*indeed with their rifles….
But who is listening.
Also ONLY PERSON IN ARMENIA WHO WAS OUTSPOKEN AND THAT ON DIRECT T.V DISCUSSION/DEBATE…who said,and I quote him”THIS MINUTE WE SHOULD STOP OUR PEACE TALKS VIA MINSK OSCE,ASK THEM TO TELL AZEDRBAIJANI,STOP ASK PARDON,OTHERWISE ARMENIANS WILL NOT COME BACK TO NEGOTIATING TABLE FOR PEACE>>>
AND A few months later in yerevan,I ask my friend there who was that man ,says he””he is a Marxist..”” .So what I told him let him be Maoist , leninist Tashnag,hiunchag Ramgavar,m whatever,but when what he says has logic IS TO THE BENEFIT OF OUR NATION WE HSOULD ALL ACCEPT AND EMBRACE IT. So is the primitive rather jealousy infested Armenian mind.We must learn to co operate amongst all of us ,any ideology is BENEATH THE NATIONAL SECURITY AND IMPORTANCE…
NO WE HAVE NOT AS YET REACHED unfortunately that level ,.we must educate ourselves to that end.
Woskanapa indirectly suggests*who does not know itgreat Turkey is fed ,armed dressed super armed etc., by the U.S.,hell who does not know that____ and in extension great Turkey supports Axerbaijan and they attack us or prepare to…sowhat does great Russia do to counteract that approach..Putin goes to Istanbulla or Ankara to conducty big business….Armenia…who cares for that little nation sandwiched between the turco Azeris.Indeed time to think very seriously ,no not to measure up to thos giants Russo Ams,Ejuros…but make serious very serious efforts to get ,RESSERVE CORPS, Swiss style,Armenian style, then alsoESTABLISH WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE IN DIASPORA OUR NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND…TO COUNTERACT ALL turco azeri propaganda , start REPATRIATION , RA cannot do that…they are busy Govt. any gpovt style work towards some improvements in all aspectes…
OUR DIASPORA MUST BE RE ORGANIZED WITH ABOVE FUND AROUND PCA’s Prof. Colleagues Assoc. let the political party guys do their job,God help them ,But I mean we must do OUR OWN NEW SUCH,as I “suggest”
enough to criticize make oratory rounds at Armenian gatherings…
All you guys please write like I do to our beautifull partisan press..unfortunately we do not as yet have an armenian non-partisan daily or weekly where such like ideas can come to light and preppar the Diaspora for a real Overhaul. And mind you I do not blame them they are politicla parties with their own dogmas,like any other odar onces…
We can do our own non-partisan one around PCA’s
i ahve exhausted myself , anyone listening …
These provocations by Azerbaijan , whether they are in Karabakh or Armenia proper, are designed to destabilize the border area, encourage depopulation and draw us into a deeper conflict. It raises the question of what is Armenia’s foreign policy response to this hostile strategy? In the absence of a clearly articulated position, the risk of demoralization exists.
I disagree when I hear that analysts say that time is not on Armenia’s side. They sight the impact on the economy and the population. We as , Armenians, control ore of our economic destiny than we care to admit. Eradicating overt corruption encourages investment and employment. The entrepreneurial instincts will be fully realized as the free market environment improves. This is a domestic policy issue that will impact foreign policy.
The ” world” loves to support the status quo. One of reasons that the issues of “territorial integrity” seems to Ian more traction than ” self determination” is that no one wants to encourages political change. However, as the years go by with de facto independence, the new reality becomes slowly the new status quo.
The most important change to manage is the continued improvement in the business environment, increased investment, jobs, hope and stability. The Azeris will have no answer for that . They are waiting for our self-destruction. We must disappoint them.
The article says: “Unless this situation is corrected, he predicted dire circumstances for the region. In fact, the Azeris could eventually walk right into Armenia and take our lands, which he said is their goal.”
Yeah, right … if we could be so venturesome, why not take back what is truly ours, Lachin, Kelbejer, Gubadli, Zengilan, Fizuli, Susha, Agdam (note that I excluded the part of Karabak that have been Armenian)?
Have you considered the possibility that the car attack that is cited here was actually the doing of criminals, trying to cover it up by blaming the Azeris?
And by the way, you talk and bewail the POSSIBILITY of us taking over a couple of desolate Armenian villages. But you have IN FACT already done this to 7 Azeris states outside of Karabak? Who is the aggressor, my friends? A potential aggressor, or an actual one?
what right did Azerbaijan have to invade NKR in 1991 ?
what right did Azerbaijan have to occupy 48% of NKR around June-October of 1992 ?
what right did Azerbaijan have to attempt to ethnically cleanse and wipe out the indigenous Armenians of NKR ?
Question Kerim: when an enemy occupies 48% of NKR proper, what do you do when you throw them out ? Stop, so they can come back and finish you off ?
Your AzeriTatarTurk warmongering leaders decided to INVADE Independent NKR, and attempted to wipe out its Armenian population.
There is no dispute about that. Do you , Kerim, dispute that Azerbaijan invaded NKR and at one point occupied 48% of NKR ?
If the ceasefire was signed in the summer of 1992, would Azerbaijan now talk about giving back that 48% to NKR ?
Yes or No ?
The territories outside NKAO were not part of NKAO: quite true.
But they are historic Armenian lands. And historic Armenian lands extend all the way to Kur river.
Azerbaijan did not respect the self-determination right of NKR Armenians and invaded; tried to wipe them out.
There no cost to aggression ? You don’t go to jail if you attempt – only attempt – to murder someone ?
There is no Azeri land, it is an imagination land created by few turkic tribes land owners, like you said before, by few Khans, look at Turkmanchai treaty that you have not even acknowledge on my previous comments, you just blowing your own horns in our AW, base on our freedom of speech that we honor you to speak up!! READ THOROUGHLY and every other words and dirges!! It is not written by Armenians or Turks!!
Treaty of Turkmenchay – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia..
“what right did Azerbaijan have to invade NKR in 1991 ?
what right did Azerbaijan have to occupy 48% of NKR around June-October of 1992 ?”
NKR was, and continues to be- under international law, legally part of Azerbaijan. Even if you have no historical claim to the lands in question, wouldn’t a state have a right to attempt to retain its territorial integrity? Also, while the words invade and occupy may be an accurate description of what took place, I doubt the international organization that can possibly broker a deal between the two nations will find it possible for a nation to invade and occupy part of its own nation… which would explain why the Madrid Principles seemed so much fairer to the Azeris. Also, the regions around NKR, are considered, by the EU, UN, and many other institutions as “occupied” by Armenia. I am making no comment on the reality of the situation, however, Avery, I think you have to admit that Armenia is losing the PR battle. This thing should have been resolved LONG ago.
“the regions around NKR, are considered, by the EU, UN, and many other institutions as “occupied” by Armenia.”
Dead wrong, RVDV. In none of the UN and EU resolutions the Republic of Armenia is mentioned as occupying the regions around Artsakh. “Local Armenian forces” is the most commonly used term in those documents.
Stop disinformation, please.
“NKR was, and continues to be- under international law, legally part of Azerbaijan.”
Dead wrong again, RVDV. The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic could not and cannot be legally part of Azerbaijan for two major reasons.
One, the region was declared disputed by the 1919 Paris Conference, awaiting further moderation as far as its status is concerned. It was then transferred, in the early 1920s, by an illegal decision of the Caucasus Bureau of the Bolshevik Party (political party cannot be a representative, elected organ) influenced by direct intervention of Stalin, to the newly-created national republic of Azerbaijan.
Second, NKR declared independence from Azerbaijan, in the form of transfer to Armenia and then full independence, even BEFORE Azerbaijan declared independence from the USSR.
The aggressor is the one who started explicit projection of military force against the civilians in 1992. Need a hint? Azerbaijan.
Azeris have lost and surrendered seven regions around Artsakh. Because they’ve lost, they portray Armenians as aggressors conveniently forgetting who started the aggression and an all-out war back in 1992. Need a hint? Azerbaijan.
RVDV,
NKR was an autonomous region in Azerbaijan. NKR held a referendum and voted for Independence. They got their independence from USSR just like Armenia and Axerbaijan got theirs. And yes, Baku had no right to bomb Stepanakert and kill over 2000 civilians. Can you imagine Spain bombing Barcelona and killing 1000s of civilians for voting for their independence. As I said in my comment addressed to Kerim, Axerbaijan and Turkey are free to head to ICJ.
As to losing the PR battle, is not it time we learn something from you guys? Turks have been living with that lost PR battle for quite long time. And, they seem to be just fine.
John: If you don’t know what you’re talking about, I suggest not saying anything. Again, I make no comment on the reality of the situation, nor do I deny that Armenia has a much more valid claim to NKR than Azerbaijan does. However, what is right and what is recognized under international law is not the same.
From the UN- March 14, 2008:
“….The General Assembly today reaffirmed Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity, expressing support for that country’s internationally recognized borders and demanding the immediate withdrawal of all Armenian forces from all occupied territories there…”
“At the same time, the Assembly recognized the need to provide secure and equal conditions of life for Armenian and Azerbaijani communities in the Nagorny Karabakh region, which would allow an effective democratic system of self-governance to be built up in the region within Azerbaijan.”
“By a recorded vote of 39 in favour to 7 against (Angola, Armenia, France, India, Russian Federation, United States, Vanuatu), with 100 abstentions, the Assembly also reaffirmed the inalienable right of the Azerbaijani population to return to their homes, and reaffirmed that no State should recognize as lawful the situation resulting from the occupation of Azerbaijan’s territories, or render assistance in maintaining that situation. ”
I think the UN is very clear in their position.
Sella: Like I said, what actually happened with NKR is not the important thing (with regard to international legitimacy). What’s important is what can you can get the international community to accept- if you care what they think (I don’t think Turkey for example cares with regard to Northern Cyprus). If you can get the international community to largely turn the other way on a crime for 97 years, I’d say you’d be winning the PR battle, but..
RVDV:
John may or may not know what he is talking about (I think he does, and he does), but you need to re-read the part about ‘Armenian’: it does not say “Republic of Armenia forces’: it says ‘Armenian forces’: Yes, NKR’s military is Armenian. 100% Armenian.
{“RVDV: and many other institutions as “occupied” by Armenia.”} meaning RoA. ‘Armenia’=RoA.
{“John: Dead wrong, RVDV. In none of the UN and EU resolutions the Republic of Armenia is mentioned as occupying the regions around Artsakh. “Local Armenian forces” is the most commonly used term in those documents.”}
It does not say ‘Local’ as John states: but it should be clear what UN means.
Regarding UN resolution 62/243:
The resolution was passed by mostly Islamic countries: look it up. France, US, and Russia voted against it.
Even staunch ally of Turkey and Azerbaijan, the US, said this: [Speaking on behalf of the OSCE Minsk Group, the United States said that the Co-Chairs voted against because they “viewed resolution 62/243 as selectively propagating only certain of those principles to the exclusion of others, without considering the Co-Chairs’ proposal in its balanced entirety”.] What do you suppose that means, RVDV.
How many UN resolutions are there against Israel ? 300, 400, 500 ?
Do they give a hoot ?
How many UN resolutions are there against Turkey’s occupation of Cyprus ? Do they give a hoot ?
Oh, and Merry Christmas to all who believe in Christmas.
(I will issue another one on our Armenian Christmas Jan 5/6).
Avery, your statement that Azerbaijan occupied Karabak is absurd. It is like saying, US is occupying Texas. Of course, there are some Mexicans living in Texas who think Texas is a historica Mexcian land (and they may be right, although it does not matter). But this does not make US is an occupying force?
You say, what right Azerbaijan had to “occupy” Karabak? Really? It is pretty simple: sovereign right.
You say, the rest of the Azeri lands outside Karabak proper is historic ARmenian land. Says who? How convinient? Do you think a court who accept such an explanation if you went to neigbor’s house and kicked them out, after killing them? Imagine this dialogue in the court:
Judge: John has the title to the house. But Mike has taken over it.
Mike: Your honor, this house is hisotically my family’s. According to the books I have read from my grandfather, their great grandfathers owne this land 4000 years ago?
Judge: Sir, are you serious?
Mike: Absolutely.
Judge: Dont think you that you had to go through a legal process to challenge the title, instead of resorting to violence?
Mike: Your honor, they resorted to violence first?
Judge: When?
Mike: After I peacefully declared that his house is mine.
Judge: Did they take over your house?
Mike: No, they were the aggressor. So I had to punish them because they did not agree to me taking over the house?
You see where this is going?
Kerim,
The historically Armenian region of Artsakh could not be part of Azerbaijan because there has never been such a nation-state as Azerbaijan in history before 1918.
The region was transferred to the newly-cooked Republic of Azerbaijan illegally (because no popular vote or parliamentary resolution had taken place to authorize the transfer) and in sheer violation of the 1919 Paris Peace Conference provision which declared the region “a disputed area” and delayed consideration of its status.
Azerbaijan occupied Artsakh in 1992 because at the time Artsakh has already declared its independence. Really. Succession was the sovereign right of all ethno-territorial formation within the Soviet Union. Do you know that?
Some of the modern-day lands outside Karabakh proper currently under Azeri rule are historic Armenian lands. Says who? Say historical chronicles. For example, Nakhichevan that’s mentioned in Ptolemy’s Geography and by other classical writers of antiquity as “Naxuana” and in Armenian literally means “the place of descent”, a Biblical reference to the descent of Noah’s Ark on the adjacent Mt Ararat. Some lands outside Artsakh proper are historic Armenian lands by way of evidence of physical presence of Armenians so effectively and in a “civilized Azeri” manner eradicated by the Azeris in same Nakhichevan.
Kerim,
Why don’t you, AxeriTurks, hold your Turkish brother’s hand and head to ICJ? You AxeriTurks and your brother Turks have been sending us to ICJ for quite some time, how about you have a taste of your own medicine?
Real Turkish ¨Massals¨ hoja Nassreddin type…
You write you believe in it n o one esle..
I don´t think it is worth a reply…
Why?
Simple
Massals (like fables, made up stories for kids) are only for latter´s pleasure,at best passtime for adults too.
RVDV:
Regarding international law and such: I discussed this in another thread, but will repeat here for you here. (because you are fair and reasonable).
Azerbaijan constantly invokes the Territorial Integrity clause of the UN Charter. But they deliberately ignore the Self Determination clause.
UN Charter [PART 1 Article 1 All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. ].
NKR Armenians invoked the Self Determination clause: a human being’s God given right of self determination is superior – in my opinion – to any alleged rights of a man-made creation such as a State.
Regarding NKR legal status. Azeris keep claiming it became part of Azerbaijan SSR, and therefore it ‘belongs’ to them.
Not true. Here is why (…and I am deliberately not invoking our historical rights)
Azerbaijan Democratic Republic of 1918-1920 renounced any claims to Nagorno-Karabagh.
Azerbaijan SSR renounced any claims to NK as a ‘brotherly’ gesture to Armenia SSR when Bolsheviks took over.
However, Stalin, as Commissar of nationalities – on his own – decided to place NKAO under Azerbaijan SSR Administrative control, instead of Armenia SSR administrative control as was previously agreed to by all parties.
Stalin did not ‘give’ it to Azerbaijan, as even some Armenians mistakenly state.
Only placed it under Azerbaijan’s administrative control.
Under the supreme Federal supervision of USSR, Moscow.
It was called NK Autonomous Objast (NKAO) for a reason.
On August 30, 1991 Azerbaijan SSR declared Independence from USSR.
On September 2, 1991 NKAO declared Independence. NKAO became NKR. Note that the day Azerbaijan SSR separated from USSR, its legal administrative mandate to govern NKAO ended. Full stop.
Shortly after NKR declared independence, Azerbaijan launched a full scale illegal invasion.
Why illegal ? Because NKR did not legally belong to Azerbaijan and was no longer legally under its Administrative control.
(if you can punch holes in my logic, RVDV, I will give it an honest consideration)
Regarding international law: you are quite right. International community does not recognize NKR nor the supremacy of the Self Determination clause in the case of NKR Armenians.
But that is not such a big problem, as people imagine: I will explain below.
Regarding the PR war: you are right again. Azerbaijan has scored many PR victories. While we were busy with Turkey, Azerbaijan snuck up on us.
They have been making good use of their abundant petrodollars: we should respect them as a competent adversary and not underestimate them as we did before.
We have since adjusted, and are working to blunt their efforts. Lots of work for us Diaspora Armenians in coming years.
Regarding International law and Territorial Integrity:
Nobody cared about International Law or the Territorial Integrity of Serbia, when Kosovo, a historic Serbian province was taken away by force.
Albanians, who had migrated into Kosovo over centuries and had displaced the native Serbs, asserted their right to be independent. Self Determination clause.
The International community, actually the West, recognized the supremacy of the Self Determination right of Kosovo Albanians, even though it violated the Territorial Integrity of Serbia.
So, what is the difference between Kosovo and NKR ?
You and I know that International Law gets stretched and bent to suit the needs of those who run the show.
In time, if we Armenians don’t screw up on our own, the International law will recognize the facts on the ground.
After all, which International law stopped Mustafa Kemal from violating Internationally recognized borders of the Democratic Republic of Armenia (1918-1920), invading its territory and gobbling up huge chunks of it. Which the so-called International law today recognizes as part of the State of Turkey.
Avery: Your argument makes sense, but I have only one question. If NKR was under Azeri administration only under Soviet rule, and Azerbaijan renounced its claim to it in 1918, how is it that Azerbaijan was able to secure it, if only by law, under their sovereignty? Because they declared their independence 3 days before NKR? That would be a technicality of a technicality. And since NKR voted for separation from Azerbaijan and its own independence, it was Armenian majority, no? Why didn’t they vote to join Armenia? And on a different note, if there was nothing illegal from what NKR did (declare independence) and Azerbaijan was the aggressor, why the did the UN pass several resolutions during the war which criticized the Armenian side? While your argument is a good one, something (for me) just doesn’t add up. As a somewhat neutral observer, it seems like Azeris claim that 2+2=5 and Armenians claim 2+2=3.5 (I am leaning towards to the Armenian version a little more).
“So, what is the difference between Kosovo and NKR ?”
My guess is that NKR’s enemies are stronger and have oil/natural gas.
As to what international laws stopped Ataturk, probably the same ones that stopped the US from invading Iraq, and the same ones that cause Israelis to respect the rights of Palestinian Arabs to live on their homeland, clearly. Anyways, Merry Christmas to you my friend, hopefully our nations won’t be at each others throats forever.
Very well defined Avery.You know all the intrigues that the real actors are setting up ,pulling up some ropes(strings) then voila all is settled to their satisfaction.
What Armenia/Artsakh authorities are doing in this case,viz the so called NK Conflict with Azerbaijan is correct and it will eventually bear fruit.
Unless great Turkey well supported by ¨allies¨ pulls up some other ropes.
What troubles me most is the immigration issue,which should be seriously handled and also the Diaspora should re organize its stsructures ASAP
Best solution is to Arm the civilians and give them training in guarding the village. And most of all, don’t take prisoners. And also, where are the Armenian border guards in that area. We know the Azeris are blood thristy, brain washed, zombees, Why our government doesn’t make sure every inch of the border is covered when it comes to defending it. All the villages along every Azeri Armenian border must be ready for fight when ever neeed. From Nakhijevan to north east.
If we let the Azeris hrass us like this then that means we are letting loos. We must keep on reminding them who they are dealing with is risky for them or else they will claim their turanic pride onto every part of caucases.
Azeris try to test Armenia and the only way to keep them at bay is to make them fail.
Armenia is already in war and we should continue fighting. Having Karabakh doesn’t get ride of Azeri viloance and threat, since these zombees are hungry and they will even betray God to hate Armenians.