Evidently, it wasn’t enough that we learned about the trafficking of women from Armenia for use as prostitutes in the Persian Gulf from the exposé done by Ara Manoogian some seven years ago. No doubt, this odious practice continues.
Nor, apparently, was it enough to be treated to the profoundly rankling reality of women from Armenia entering the sex trade in Turkey. This, too, probably continues unabated, though I haven’t heard much about it recently. But, guess what? A school in Constantinople is being (re)built to serve the numerous Armenian children who have been added to our community’s ranks in that city. Guess where they came from.
Of course it was clearly not enough to have to digest the sobering reality that Armenians fire-bombed a bar frequented by other Armenians whose sexual orientation the attackers deemed inappropriate.
Now we get to relish the selling of young Armenian women as brides to Persians or Turks in Iran. While this may have been OK long ago, it’s hardly so today. How can selling a person be acceptable? I’d like to think this is not true, but unfortunately, it seems all too plausible!
The story I heard was of someone going back to visit his hometown in northern Iran and being invited by old friends to visit and reminisce. Over the meal, the hosts proudly told this fellow that they had gotten brides from Armenia—not just one, but two. They also mentioned paying a pretty penny for them. The practice of paying a bride price is evidently more common in polygamous societies where, understandably, a relative scarcity of women is created.
Brain drain, expatriation for work (today’s version of the 19th century’s “bantoukhd”), and now a bride drain; what’s next, selling babies? Or maybe that’s already happening and I don’t know about it.
Just STOP. Armenia’s authorities have to start acting like a government and not a band of marauding, looting, ravaging nomads! The ongoing immiseration of the bulk of the Republic of Armenia’s population quite naturally leads to all these reprehensible, sad, and desperate actions. Let’s browbeat this government into acting responsibly or contribute to a fundamental change in leadership come the presidential elections this winter.
Garen Yegparian
Latest posts by Garen Yegparian (see all)
- Drones for Armenia - November 15, 2022
- So Sad, Too Far Gone - November 7, 2022
- Pomposity to Mask Ineptitude - October 31, 2022
Thanks Garen you are a real human…
I heard but I could not believe…
No body commented…on this site why …
This is another genocide…
Not only remembering what good genes we lost …
But to stop new genocide …All those girls will end with many diseases …
Most can’t be cured and they will transmit their infection to others…
Where is the health authority to prevent…!
Awake Doctors Awake…!
SP
” Armenia’s authorities have to start acting like a government and not a band of marauding, looting, ravaging nomads!”
Now, Yegparian, tell us how we can bring this about. The more “ravaged” and “looted” a population are, the less capable they are of stopping marauders and looters. And, perhaps, that’s exactly what is intended.
This must have been one of the most emotionally difficult columns you have ever written. Just reading it fills one with helpless dispair.
Maybe our enemies are building a case to publicly discredit/embarrass Armenians at some future time.
You would think the “more ravaged and looted a population is” the more willing thy’d be to rise up and demand change! But we Armenians are a complacent lot and cannot unite in struggle to throw the bastards out of power.
“my friend told me”, “I have a neighbour who saw”, “my grandfather was there and told my mother” etc.
stop telling stories, give us real journalism based on facts and figures, earn some credibility for God sake:(
Every nation has its own problems, but no one will present to us it’s “best” instead of our “bad”.
the article I see – is one of the many forthcoming dirt buckets, to be thrown towards Armenian authorities before the presidential elections. Let the readers think and deside who is going to use this dirth. IMHO everyone, but Armenian people. Thank You compatriot Garen-you’ve done a great job for your nation! With your help we discovered that we are not so special, but regular nation, which has its problems too.
Just STOP! yourself Mr. Yegparian:
What have you done for Armenia lately, other than sitting comfortably in a California USA office and endlessly criticizing everything RoA does ?
While you were enjoying life in the safety of America, many people in RoA’s current government were putting their very lives on the line for the survival of NKR and RoA. Including the current President of RoA.
The same Free, Independent RoA and NKR that people like you are now so proud of.
Who do you think did it: people like you ? How was the miracle of Independence accomplished: writing articles ?
How many axe wielding AxeriTatarTurk invaders could you stop with your computer keyboard ?
For 20+ years, successive governments of RoA and NKR have passed the ultimate success test for any government with a rating of A+++: both RoA and NKR have been kept safe from a foreign invasion. Can you dispute that ?
You want to have a say in the internal politics of RoA ? Go to RoA, become a citizen, put your own safety and comfort on the line – then criticize all you want: more power to you. And you can help repopulate Armenia to boot.
Armenia has enough enemies already. We don’t need Western Diaspora Armenians joining their ranks. I have yet to hear a single criticism of Israel from Jewish American community leaders.
Is there no corruption in Israel ?
Everything Israeli government does is pure ?
Israeli leaders have not been investigated or convicted of rape, graft, corruption, influence peddling, etc – right ?
Jewish Americans instinctively unite behind Israel – no matter what. Jewish American US Congressional leaders even closed ranks during and after Operation Cast Lead, which, btw, the Goldstone Report accused Israel of war crimes. War Crimes. And supposedly patriotic Western Diaspora Armenians sit around all day trying to find something, anything, with which to attack or criticize RoA: I guess it gives them immense satisfaction that they have done ‘something’ for their homeland. Then they can go back to their comfortable Western lives having had the satisfaction of having done – in their minds – their part for the homeland.
While Jewish Americans have Israel’s back no matter what, a superpowerful nuclear-armed country 60+ years old, clueless, if well meaning, Western Diaspora Armenians are already busy trying to cause as much damage and disruption to RoA as they can, barely 20 years after its hard-won Independence.
Presumably because they had very little to do with its Independence, or because it does not fit some idealized image of a Caucasian Switzerland.
The comparatively meager amounts Western Diaspora collects and remits to RoA does not give it the right to interfere in its internal politics.
Russian Armenian Diaspora gives 5X-10X more, yet Western Diaspora grandiosely assumes the right to interferes far more in RoA’s internal affairs.
Why ? because we are oh so sophisticated ? You know, highly advanced Westerners, and all that ?
And your idol Ara Manoogian is running around urging Armenians not to give money for water projects in Artsakh.
He was urging people NOT to give money at the 2011 Telethon that would bring drinking water to Artsakh’s children: criticize that if you are fair.
And your idol Manoogian, whose favourite pastime is organizing protests in front of the Consulate of RoA in Glendale, has not organized a single protest in front of the Consulate of Azerbaijan: not one.
He did not even organize one for the Safarov affair – even though he pompously announced he would do so before the massive AYF organized protest. (Go fearless AYF). What does that tell you about his motives ?
And have any of you who constantly criticize Gov of Armenia ever wonder what it takes to hold back the US$3 Billion @ year military machine Azerbaijan
has with barely adequate funds ? Do you guys understand what it takes to maintain a 45,000 man military in RoA and 20,000 man military in NKR with no free oil money gushing from under your feet ? The entire State budget of RoA is about US$2.5 Billion. Azerbaijan’s Aggression budget – falsely labeled ‘Defense’ – is more than US$3 @ year: RoA Gov gets no praise for maintaining the safety and security of RoA and NKR with such a lopsided disadvantage ? Yet is blamed for the decisions of some private persons to sell themselves ?
What is more important: that two Armenian women were allegedly sold to someone in Iran, or the safety and security of 3 million in RoA and 160,000 in NKR ? And if an Armenian woman allows herself to be sold to an Iranian, or an AxeriTatarTurk, or a Turk – that’s her lousy business (as long as she is a consenting adult).
Human trafficking and sexual exploitation of woman is common throughout the Middle East, Asia, Russia and the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe and even to some extent in Western Europe. I have always considered the Russian-Armenians to more Russian than Armenian. What is amazing is that university textbooks in Armenia are all in Russian and all official business documents are also in Russian. The only other sleazy group among the Armenians are the Iraqi-Armenians. Armenians who come from corrupt societies adopt the corrupt ways. Iraq has always been one of the most corrupt and screwed up countries in the Middle East. Russia and the former Soviet Union have always been extremely corrupt and screwed up.
The US government ran the Mustang Ranch Brothel in Nevada for 20 years. Is that not sexual exploitation?
Avery has a good point that the Israeli mafia plays a large role in sex trafficking and the Israeli government also turns a blind eye. Nightline on ABC did an excellent story about 20 years ago about how Israeli brothels have Russian and Eastern European woman who were sold as sex slaves.
All I can say, someone like this cfhap who does more evil and harm to armenity than his supposedly effective journalism.Latter I mean in a double edged sword.He might be doing plenty harm to our integrity.
A tactic Turks are very good at.
Come clear Mr. tell us who gave you that information ,what is the real source of it.In Iran we do have quite well organized communities and can investigate further where that has happened and bring to light and expose it.
Otherwise dear avery and ¨¨from armenia¨have let you have it quite well.
I join with them in disrespecting your kind of journalism THAT DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.
”Brain drain, expatriation for work (today’s version of the 19th century’s “bantoukhd”), and now a bride drain; what’s next, selling babies? Or maybe that’s already happening and I don’t know about it.”
Mr. Yegparian,
And, you thought that Armenian government is in a position to control the bride drain? Is there any government that is in a position to do it?
Who cares two Armenians sold themselves to Iranians? If they agreed to be ”sold” than they deserved to be sold. It is that simple. I also heard some married Arabs from Dubai because of wealth. When they will grow a few years older and their husbands will marry second and third time, they will cry like crocodiles. There will always be materialistic people, and more so among women.
When Yegparian writes – “Armenia’s authorities have to start acting like a government and not a band of marauding, looting, ravaging nomads! The ongoing immiseration of the bulk of the Republic of Armenia’s population quite naturally leads to all these reprehensible, sad, and desperate actions”, he is only relaying the thoughts held by most RA citizens. All this bluster about rallying around the government in power because some fought in the Artsakh War is a puerile smokescreen for covering up their inadequacies and corrupt government practices. Who says Armenians in the diaspora can’t constructively criticize the powers in Yerevan? Who says American Jews don’t criticize the government in Israel? Making such black and white statements in an attempt to stifle any debate about Armenia is a common ruse by so-called Armenian patriots who can’t see beyond their muddled vision of what a just society in Armenian should look like. The fault of Yegparian and the diaspora as a whole, if it can be so labelled, is that they fail to realize the imperative to get involved on the ground in Armenia; i.e. to participate in civic movements for positive reform. Their cries from LA will not reach the power centers in Yerevan or those working to change things for the better in Armenia as a whole.
Some commentators her mix up one’s loyalty to the state of Armenia with supporting its successive governments. That’s a big mistake.
Avery and others: I know you mean well, and your post has many truths that I agree with. But I must also admit that there are several incorrect ideas about diaspora Armenians as well which I will point out. I’m glad you mentioned Israel because that’s the example I will use too. While you used it as a measure against diaspora Armenians, I will use it as a measure against the government of Armenia.
As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. This is the problem we have on both sides… we try to tango alone because we feel we don’t need a partner and we can go it alone. This has been one of our failings.
If I remember correctly, in the first Armenia, our government came up with “the right of return” – a model Israel later adopted for Jews everywhere in the world, whereby they were handed citizenship papers upon setting foot in the new Israel. Was this the case in 1991 for Armenians? No. I think it isn’t to this day, unless your name is “Charles Aznavour” or you have loads of cash to give away.
I agree that we in the diaspora need to go to the homeland and make it better. But why must we suffer doing it? Don’t you think the government must make the first move and actually make it feasible for diaspora Armenians to repatriate? We are not packing up and moving into the unknown, anytime soon. We tried that in the 1940’s and it didn’t work out so well. That same generation who did that didn’t know how quickly to escape once it became possible 30 years later.
Perhaps we can deal with discrimination to a certain extent, (and let me tell you it is very alive and healthy as we speak), but no one wants to lose their life’s work or livelihood against some old, archaic Soviet-era “laws” when they try to move to Armenia for patriotic reasons. It is not right and not fair and many of us went through this with no recourse.
If we in the diaspora didn’t constantly hear how so-and-so went there, got ripped off and came back, perhaps like the Jews, criticism of our country’s government would be at a minimum. Yes I am also against hanging dirty laundry, but consider the diaspora position… what else can they do with their frustrations?
Yes the government has successfully defended the country, but is that the only job of the government? I’m not saying anyone is wrong or right, but I am saying that there needs to be a give and take, and it is clear to me the government of Armenia has not done its share of giving to make the country an inviting place and an easy transition for diaspora Armenians to repatriate. It is almost as if they don’t want to populate the country but the opposite.
The laughable “diaspora ministry” is a joke and only there for show. Just like Armenia itself, the diaspora has its own leaders, so why not first of all acknowledge each other and regularly meet to share each others needs and concerns? What’s wrong making Armenia an inviting place of business for wealthy diaspora Armenians to go and conduct their businesses free from the fear of “taxes” and “laws”?
The Protocols a few years back clearly showed how the government of Armenia has rendered the diaspora as irrelevant – a very short-sighted and irresponsible position to take, even if “they knew what they were doing”. And contrary to what you think, as the diaspora has a very prominent party, it needs to be fully part of the government of Armenia, even while not living there. I see nothing wrong with that. It is yet one more way of establishing trust and moving forward.
Finally, about this article and the “bride drain” – you may call that their business, but it is also the business of our culture, and it isn’t right. Each bride that leaves our culture, that is less Armenians that would have existed. The Genocide took enough brides, we don’t need to now volunteer ourselves out of existence.
To Hye from CA
That is why I have now and then and repeatedly(and will do so again and again)¨suggested¨ that The Ministry of Diaspora,Admit amongst its staff FIVE permanent delegates/reps. from FIVE main Armenian community areas,namely
N.&.S.Americas, EU,RF, and the Middle East.BTW, these people even amongst themselves are not so similar..thus they will mingle together more and above all with the RA counterpart,Discuss all issues daily and facilitate solution of many a problem. Is there,has there been one person8EVEN RIGHT HERE O THIS FORUM) to second me in my this Q U E S T ????
NO,I bet not even you Mr. CA….why? simple enough
We D. it Armenians have to get rid of TWO very bad TRAITS,come to us from time immemorial.
1.We are an over-jealous people(Gotta get rid of it)
2. We have yet to lern to c o o p e r a t e !!!!
Latter depends on the first one of course.
As rgds your other complaints I do not condone your well wishing that ONLY the haireni brothers/sisters are to blame.We should first of all look into our own deficiencies…You want facts???
There are aplenty.But suffice it to say that when the first time visitor(Armenian) goes to RA ,all she /he wishes to see is to compare it with L.A. and or <Pairs..whereas they should compare Yerevan to citiesw their parents immigrated to the mentioned, say Lebanon,Iran etc., Yerevan today and even back in the 60´s 70´ when I fist visite d it was way above those Middle East countries cities,with all those beautifull bldgs, that soviet era were built, the Metro and a hell lot more than You ccoould come across in M.East countries.Except of cours e the luxur item selling stores(opened to market Euro-Am products) cabarets, shiny U.s. cars that only the 1% of the people afforded to ride in.So Do you KID???? brother..
We must also understand that they (our brothers there)now guard themselves against us, because they have also SUFFERED much more ,what am I saying,only they know what was TODAY¨s yes today´s Anniversary of the Spitak Earthquake-24 yrs ago…
Plus war in NK, then being constantly THREATENED BY THOSE G.dAMNED
turco azeris..
Few know in Yerevan or overseas that great Turkey is behind Axerbaiajn and they will not stop these threats B E C A U S E
THEY ARE AFRAID IF WE ARMENIANS AS A WHOLE WIN THIS FIRST ROUND..NAMEL THAT OF NK BEING GLOBALLY RECOGNIZED…THEN THEY ARE IN FOR SURPRISES AS RGDS NAKHJIJECVAN SHAHUMIAN, KARS ARDAHAN….G E N O C I D E REPARATIONS…
TRUE I OPT ANDE ADVOCATE FOR A NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND BY US IN DIASPORA.BUT I NEVER CEASE TO THINK ABOUT THE B L O O D MONEY THAT WE CAN FIGHT FOR AND RECEIVE FROM GREAT TURKEHY…
I HAVE EXHAUSTED MYSELF YOUNGMEN,PICK IT UP FROM WHERE I AM SIGNING OFF PLEASE…
ONE LAST REQUEST …ALSO ADVOCATE TO REPATRIATE….
I HAVE ALSO SOLUTION TO WHAT MR CA AND SAY W/RGDS TO NOT SO EASY ,AS THERE IT IS HARD TO GET ALONG.
O.K. ONCE OUR F U N D IS THERE WE CAN START BUILDING NEW TOWNSHIPS SUCH AS NEW GLENDALE NEW PARIS IN DISTANCE BETWEE…SAY YEREVAN A ND GYUMIR 2.5 HOURS DRIVING (ME AND CO,) all that space is v a c a n t !!! GO BUILD YOUR OWN TOWNSHIPS,live amongst yourselves untill later by and by you mingle with locals!!! O.K.????
I agree with much of what Hye from CA writes.
Avery, you’re unequalled when it comes to bashing TurkoAzeri denialist heads. But when it comes to the matters of Armenia’s internal politics and domestic governance, one can see flaws in your position. Еhere’s certainly a rational kernel in it, but your excessive tendency of showing the government in positive light is unreal, because in reality many people in the republic are of divergently different opinion. Those very people who are not sitting comfortably in a California USA office, but endure hardships in their daily strife for survival under the government-administered skyrocketing prices, lawlessness, corruption, and nepotism.
Here are my two cents to support my argument.
Criticizing RoA and criticizing the RoA government are two divergently different things. This should be clear.
Putting lives on the line for the survival of NKR and RoA is most appreciative but it cannot, of and by itself, be a prerequisite for good governance. While history knows army commanders becoming heads of state or prime-ministers, it doesn’t mean all of them become shrewd, public-spirited, and accountable politicians.
The miracle of independence was accomplished as a result of the disintegration of the Soviet Union against which 73 percent of the Soviet people (excluding Armenia and others) voted. Armenia’s and other republics’ participation would make that percentage even higher.
After axe-wielding AzeriTurk invaders were stopped or at least halted, the period of nation-state building must have started and this important task must have been handled most responsibly. Keeping the populace safe from a foreign invasion, as Hye rightly observed, is not the sole prerogative of a government.
Becoming an RoA citizen will give a Diaspora Armenian the power to criticize and can, no doubt, help repopulate Armenia. But even without many Diaspora Armenians becoming RoA citizens, how many times the citizens of Armenia attempted to change their government and were silenced, sometimes with bloodshed?
Jewish American community leaders do criticize Israel. There are even books written on the subject. Western Diaspora Armenians cannot be the enemy by definition. I know Moscow-based Armenians criticizing the government, too. West or East, doesn’t matter. When the defeatist Turkish-Armenian protocols were signed, it equally enraged both the Western and Eastern Diaspora Armenians.
There certainly is corruption in Israel and not everything the government does is pure. But in 1948 Israeli statesmen didn’t start with ransacking industrial enterprises, selling metals of value, artificially aggravating the consequences of the blockade, impoverishing people, executing a disgusting privatization program, or enriching themselves.
The point that Western Diaspora Armenians or all-Diaspora Armenians, for that matter, had very little to do with Armenia’s independence is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, Armenians of RoA themselves had very little to do with Armenia’s independence.
The right to interfere in Armenia’s internal politics on the part of the Diaspora Armenians, whether we like it or not, must grow and be legalized by the Armenian authorities. The mechanism of Diaspora’s involvement must be thoroughly examined and enacted into law. This will be to the benefit of the Armenian people in the republic and worldwide. The scandalous bargain with the Turks regarding the protocols was a slap in the face of the Diaspora. The President and the Parliament of Armenia have no right to engage in any negotiations or dealings with the Turks without the representatives of the Diaspora. Anything related to the Armenian-Turkish relations cannot be the prerogative of the RoA government alone.
Russian Armenian Diaspora has no incentive to interfere in RoA’s internal affairs because Armenia’s domestic politics are brought in many ways in conformity with the Russia’s foreign policy. I’m not arguing that this is wrong; just explaining the reason why it is so.
Lastly, if an Armenian woman allows herself to be sold to an Iranian, or an Azeri, or a Turk that’s not her “lousy business”. Prevention of human trafficking is one of the functions of a responsible government. Not to mention the reports several years ago alluding to the possibility that the RoA government was beneficiary of a prostitution business with some Middle Eastern countries.
Military threat is not the only threat a government may face and deal with, Avery. There are other threats, such as economic threat, national security threat, demographic threat, ideological threat, etc. You should know this.
“Lastly, if an Armenian woman allows herself to be sold to an Iranian, or an Azeri, or a Turk that’s not her “lousy business”. Prevention of human trafficking is one of the functions of a responsible government. Not to mention the reports several years ago alluding to the possibility that the RoA government was beneficiary of a prostitution business with some Middle Eastern countries.”
Nvair,
I am not sure the case of those two women who were “sold” to Iranians will be considered a human trafficking. There are many women who would happily merry for money (some money could be given to her family as well). I do not think it is a human trafficking or any government can or should interfere with it. Armenian government can be blamed for many things, but not for this one.
Right Sella:
Nvair: this is what Mr. Yegparian wrote:
{that they had gotten brides from Armenia—not just one, but two. They also mentioned paying a pretty penny for them. The practice of paying a bride price is evidently more common in polygamous societies where, understandably, a relative scarcity of women is created.}
it appears that there was a voluntary transaction, and the women became some guys’ wife in exchange for a certain sum paid to the women’s parents.
[Bride price, also known as bride wealth, bride token, is an amount of money or property or wealth paid by the groom or his family to the parents of a woman upon the marriage of their daughter to the groom. The agreed bride price may or may not be intended to reflect the perceived value of the girl or young woman.] (Wiki)
and I specifically wrote: “as long as she is a consenting adult”.
Consenting.
Adult.
that should make it clear where I stand.
and yes, it is a disgusting, alien custom. But I see no place for the Gov of RoA to interfere in the voluntary transaction of an adult Armenian woman who decides to marry someone in Iran in exchange for a pride price.
[Armenian government can be blamed for many things…]
I checked posts under your name, Sella. In none of them have I seen you blaming the Armenian government for anything. Criticizing the government is also a civil position, and no less patriotic than whitewashing it, especially in a social environment where all other forms of criticism and civil disobedience–protests, demonstrations, etc., are ruthlessly suppressed.
I’m sure than in a law-abiding society, where human trafficking and sexual exploitation would be punished by the authorities as menace to the society, the cases of women selling themselves for thirty silvers in the form of marriage or in the form of prostitution, would be minimal out of fear and our of shame!
Avery:
Can you imagine bride-selling in Western Armenia or Imperial Russian Armenia or Soviet Armenia? Don’t tell me the times were different, I won’t take that as a justification because the nation was the same, albeit living under different systems of government and in societal orders in which moral values used to prevail over materialistic ones.
Same nation.
System.
Government.
Moral values.
Most Western Armenians, especially those in rural areas, were living in the conditions of extreme poverty, much worse than modern citizens of Armenia. Yet, we only hear about selling of “brides” when our pure girls were forcibly sold to harems by savage Turks.
I’m more than sure that if there were a governmental efficiency in combating human trafficking and sexual exploitation, the cases of bride-selling would be minimal. The preservation of national values is also a function of a responsible government. When there was a spread of the Yahovah’s Witnesses the government was reported as shielding the Apostolic Church, because the Witnesses’ heresy might have negatively affected the cultural-religious foundations of the nation. Then the government must be equally consistent in preserving the moral foundations of our nation in which bride-selling is unheard of.
Nvair,
“I checked posts under your name, Sella. In none of them have I seen you blaming the Armenian government for anything.”
I made my position very clear when it comes to criticizing the Armenian government in my posts multiple times; not sure if you read all of them. As I stated before I do not feel that I have the moral right to criticize the government heavily anymore since I like many have left Armenia even though I am an Armenian citizen. Unlike me, many of Armenians stayed in Armenia (I appreciate it very much) and are doing “their best” (note I am not saying the best I am saying “their best”) to develop our republic. There are many good politicians and employees next to the corrupt ones in Armenian government. How can people collectively call them thugs like Vahagn does? To me it is not acceptable and very offensive to my country. I also said that I do not blame the government too much because I know that our society is not mature. For God’s sake many of them do not want to ware a sit-belt or not to cross the street on red light despite being lectured to not do so multiple times. You may ask how many times I have seen those poor people or common citizens complain about corruption when at the first chance they do the same or even worth? Many times. The government is the reflection of its citizens. I have seen that in many European countries as well. There is no doubt that our government can do better. But, for the change to happen there should be demand. Which I see happening now with the new generation. They will never tolerate what older generations are tolerating. It is a good progress.
I criticize the infamous protocols heavily, and I think this is purely government’s mistake. You were complaining that the government did not consider the Diaspora’s position, but you did not realize that the government did not consider its citizens position in the first place. Majority people in Armenia were against, but they went ahead and signed the protocols, which I am assuming were imposed on them as a result of the rigged elections and killings.
Considering everything I still think that we are in a better position having Sarkisyan as a president as opposed to LTP, whom I consider a foreign agent.
I am not against criticism, I am against destructive and overly negative criticism, which does more harm than good. One can not state all the bad things the government is doing without mentioning good ones.
Sella:
If you’re an Armenian citizen—regardless whether you live in the republic or beyond—you have EVERY right to criticize the government. But if you feel you have no moral right to criticize it because you left the country, then, accordingly, you have no moral right to court the government either. Sounds fair?
Yes, many of Armenians stayed in Armenia, but still over a million left and many would leave, if they had a chance. This is not at all indicative of government’s efficiency to rule the country.
No doubt there exist good politicians and employees next to the corrupt ones, but they can make no difference, I’m afraid. It is wrong to collectively call everyone “thugs”, but those on the top certainly are.
As far as government-society dichotomy is concerned, I beg to disagree. It is the government’s prerogative to establish law and order, even in an unruly society. A couple of years ago, when I was in Yerevan, I was asked to put on my seat belt in a taxicab, because, I was told, I might be fined by a policeman. And I’ve seen people standing on the red light out of fear to be fined. Note: the same people who would cross the street some time before. Georgians are no less unruly than the Armenians. Yet, one must admit there’s more law and order in the country. Their government should be commanded for that.
Common citizens give bribes because they realize that governance and law enforcement are weak, and there’s just no way of having their matters settled other than by giving bribes. If both the bribe-givers and bribe-takers were equally accountable before law, see how many rare cases of corruption there would be.
Agh, “government is the reflection of its citizens”. This phrase, wrongfully attributed to Baron de Montesquieu, is used by government apologists indiscreetly. Who said so? How is this correct so we use it left and right without even doubting its validity? Government is not the reflection of its citizens. Government is a reflection of the ELITE within a society. If the government were the reflection of its citizens, then why Armenian citizens enjoyed a totally different societal order and values under the communist government? Not that there was no corruption, but that it was incomparably lesser and the fear for punishment was incomparably greater. But it was the same people, right? Then, what happened? Why are the same people under the current government more corrupt and more legally unprotected than under the previous government if the government is only the reflection of its people?
“For the change to happen there should be demand”, you say. I agree. But the demand was there for too long already. How many times in the modern history of Armenia people rose to change their government and were suppressed? In 1996, during Kocharian’s years, in March 2008. How many more times there should be a demand to satisfy your criteria?
Yes, most probably the protocols were signed because of the pressure that was imposed on the authorities as a result of rigged elections and killings. But you know what accountable authorities would do in a situation like this? They would resign, not cling to power!
Heads of state-foreign agents: it is hard to imagine that a person completely free of foreign influence can rise to a high position in the government of a small country.
“One cannot state all the bad things the government is doing without mentioning good ones.” What are the good ones that are the immediate result of the government’s actions? Let’s focus on major ones that affect the people most: employment, emigration, legal protection, health, education. What were the good things that the government did to confront problems in those areas?
Nvair,
If you are quoting me or referring to what I said, please do it correctly or fully. I did not say I do not have a moral right to criticize the government I said I do not have a moral right to criticize the government heavily-letter assuming that I have the moral right to criticize the government, but not heavily. FYI, I have seen some of the youth in Armenian in some TV programs bluntly telling that those Armenians who have left Armenia and became a citizen of another country should not have much of a say what should be done in Armenia. Totally fair to me. Do you disagree? I even heard a Diasporan Armenian who moved to Armenia say that to another Diasporan Armenians. Did you really see me courting the government? Please be fair.
“A couple of years ago, when I was in Yerevan, I was asked to put on my seat belt in a taxicab, because, I was told, I might be fined by a policeman. And I’ve seen people standing on the red light out of fear to be fined. Note: the same people who would cross the street some time before”.
I do not know when and where you saw it in Yerevan, but there are plenty of people who cross the streets on red light and wear no sit-belt. I agree that it has improved though. 10 years ago 99% of people were not wearing a sit-belt. Do not you consider it an improvement?
“Common citizens give bribes because they realize that governance and law enforcement are weak, and there’s just no way of having their matters settled other than by giving bribes. If both the bribe-givers and bribe-takers were equally accountable before law, see how many rare cases of corruption there would be.”
I was not referring to giving or taking bribes. I was referring to the common citizens who complained about corruption and lawlessness, but when they got good positions they were doing the same or worse.
“Agh, “government is the reflection of its citizens”. This phrase, wrongfully attributed to Baron de Montesquieu, is used by government apologists indiscreetly. Who said so?”
Sorry but I did not know who said it before or whom it was attributed to-I said it based on my personal observation by living in different countries and observing how their governments were the reflections of their citizens.
“For the change to happen there should be demand”, you say. I agree. But the demand was there for too long already. How many times in the modern history of Armenia people rose to change their government and were suppressed? In 1996, during Kocharian’s years, in March 2008. How many more times there should be a demand to satisfy your criteria?”
I do not consider foreign-financed colored revolutions true uprisings. Regarding to March events, while the government is at fault, many of unlawful protestors who have been burning police cars and beating policemen should be held accountable as well along with the government. This is my position for March events. As I said before, I consider LTP a foreign agent and would never vote for him.
“Heads of state-foreign agents: it is hard to imagine that a person completely free of foreign influence can rise to a high position in the government of a small country.”
It should have been clear what I meant. I would not call someone a foreign agent if he had some foreign influence. I would call someone a foreign agent who’s vastly or entirely serving foreign interests.
“One cannot state all the bad things the government is doing without mentioning good ones.” What are the good ones that are the immediate result of the government’s actions? Let’s focus on major ones that affect the people most: employment, emigration, legal protection, health, education. What were the good things that the government did to confront problems in those areas?”
I do not reside in Armenia so I cannot give you the most up to date information, but this is what I know.
Employment –new factories have been build and opened; tourism has been developing- meaning more hotels, restaurants have been opened; IT and energy sectors have been developing. Can you argue that all these did not produce some employment?
Emigration–Do not have statistics, but I would assume that more people have immigrated than repatriated. But, certainly it slowed down.
Legal protection-have no information, but I would not expect that it has improved meaningfully.
Health–Improved. Teachers, Professors, health professionals, military officers and some other employees are receiving health insurance packages for the first time in their lives. People who do not use it because do not see a doctor either because do not wish or do not get sick use it to go for vacations or pay their children’s tuition fees. Many people from my extended family that I talked to were very happy with it. Many hospitals have been renovated and received new equipment to improve the diagnosis and treatment of patients.
Education–never considered that the education system in Armenia was bad. It can and should certainly improve, but it is not bad even now.
Nvair, I wonder if you have ever thought of moving to Armenia and helping to develop our country?
Some more good things…
Health: Almost every rural village in Armenia has natural gas now. They did not have it in Soviet times. All the pipelines that supply natural gas to rural Armenia have been newly build. Some people in rural Armenia have water supply that they did not have before in Soviet times and have hot water now. I remember in Soviet times we used wood to have showers. Now my family and all extended families have round a clock water supply and hot water. I believe that the gasification in Armenia is better than in Russia and used to be better than in Axerbaijan. I do not know the situation now.
Yerevan have been transformed recently by beautification projects that have added green areas to the city. A lot of space between residential buildings called “bak” in Armenian have been cleaned, trees and flowers have been planted, in some areas swimming pools for kids have been build. As a result kids play there at their leisure time. Can you argue that all this is not improving people’s health?
Education: the old Soviet Universities and schools have been renovated and computer classrooms have been added (Majority was renovated thanks to donation from Diaspora, but some of them have been renovated by the government ). The high school that I attended in Armenia was in a devastating state; last year the government renovated it.
Sella:
Again, if you’re citizen of Armenia, you have every right to be involved in the affairs of the state, whether you physically reside there or not. Heavily or not, depends on how you evaluate the state of affairs in the country.
You agree there was an improvement with crossing the streets and wearing seat belts. I too consider it an improvement. The question is how it was achieved? Because the government has introduced fines and required that policemen on the streets watch over the rules. Note: not that the people have become more disciplined out of the blue, but because the government undertook correct measures.
Common citizens who complain about corruption and lawlessness doing the same or worse when they get good positions pertains to the same realm of how the government combats corruption and lawlessness. If it combats these menaces efficiently, few—current bureaucrats or common citizens–would engage in them.
“Government is the reflection of its citizens” is a flawed observation, even if you lived in different countries and saw how their governments operated. Government is a reflection of the elite within a society. I gave one you an example with our own people. If the government was the reflection of its citizens, then why the same Armenians enjoyed a totally different societal order, less corruption, more legality, and firmer moral values under the communist government? Was it not the same people? You failed to answer this.
About foreign-financed colored revolutions. In 1996, when people rose against LTP, hardly was there any foreign-financed revolution attempt. When people were complaining during the Kocharian years, hardly was there foreign-financed revolution attempt. In March 2008, hardly were there armed mobs of people bashing poor policemen’s heads. All those who were reported dead were unarmed civilians. What does this tell you?
I do not consider foreign-financed colored revolutions true uprisings. Regarding to March events, while the government is at fault, many of unlawful protestors who have been burning police cars and beating policemen should be held accountable as well along with the government. This is my position for March events. As I said before, I consider LTP a foreign agent and would never vote for him.
You say: “I would not call someone a foreign agent if he had some foreign influence. I would call someone a foreign agent who’s vastly or entirely serving foreign interests.” Sella, if a high-level government official is a citizen of a foreign country, how effectively do you think he or she can serve national interests? If a head of state is a former agent of a foreign country’s intelligence service, how effectively do you think he or she can serve national interests?
Your assessment of the domestic situation is out of the line. The unemployment rate is high, forcing young people to leave for other countries for jobs. Hotels and restaurants were open for and serve only those who can afford them: mostly the well-to-do thickheads and their businesses. IT sector is developing mostly because there’s a demand ny major international IT companies, not because the government has made investments into the development of the sector. Energy sector developing? You mean, the one that was completely transferred into the hands of a foreign country? Health improved? How many ordinary citizens can afford monstrous healthcare, do you think? Those few who started receiving health insurance packages have jobs and can afford paying for insurance. How many more people cannot? Education is certainly worse than it was at the times when Armenians took pride for being one of the most literate and educated peoples.
Sella, several years ago I thought of moving out of Armenia after having dedicated twelve years of my life helping to develop our country in educational field. As I came to believe, those who rule the country want us to develop their pockets and could care less about those who earnestly want to develop the country.
Nvair,
Just a few remarks regarding your last posts.
Hotels that have been opened in Yerevan should be intended for tourists mostly. Armenia is a small country and people can travel to Yerevan and go back mostly. They do not need to stay in the hotels. In those hotels and restaurants it is the common citizens that are getting employed, not the sons or daughters of oligarchs.
Regarding whether the government is the reflection of its citizens or elite do not you think that elite is a reflection of the society in a certain way? Do you think that the German and Italian elites are the same? If not, why do you think it is so?
You want the government and police dictate people with their stick what to do because laws and rules are there already, but apparently people are not following? . Sorry, but I do not want to live in that kind of country. I want to live a country where citizens stop at the red light not because they see a police officer standing nearby, but because that is a violation and a wrong thing to do. This only could be achieved through education starting from the kindergarten and schools. I believe in this type of societies not the ones that are constantly watching out for police officers and fines.
As to Soviet Armenia and its society you are about to open a can of worms. All the corruption and unlawfulness that we are witnessing now was inherited from Soviet times. While art, literature and education were great in Soviet times people stole whatever they could left and right. Everything belonged to everyone and no one cared. No one was unemployed, everyone worked half a day or less and received a full salary, and if someone worked in a wine factory there would be some bottle of wine hidden under his/her cloth when leaving the factory. They would sell it after and pocket the money in addition to their salary: life was free and great. When Soviet Union collapsed people learned that life was a lot harder than back then. Likely I was born later and did not experience too much of that.
This is the philosophy of my life: If I am not happy with something that means I have to do something about it. I came up with that when I was a child and I have lived my life like that so far and will continue like that. I do not like to be around people who complain and nag all the time while overlooking all the positives. And, most of all I do not like negativism. And when I am in Armenia, I do not care who gives and receives bribes; I am not going to give or receive.
I really think that we should stop here. You do not agree with me; I do not agree with you. I do not think I will ever convince you or you will convince me. We have very opposing views. It is normal.
Yes, Sella, I think more frequent contacts with ordinary people in the country, especially in the villages, would shape your views more accurately.
The elite is a reflection of the society only in a certain way because the elite is a group of people considered to be the “best” in a society because of their power, wealth, or talent. Are all members of the Armenian society thugs, hagglers, semiliterate uncouth thick-necks? There are no doctors, educators, lawyers, computer programmers, university students, intellectuals? Do you think they’re fittingly represented in our elites?
And yes, it all starts with the government and the police “dictating” people what to do following the laws and regulations. Had the government and the police in the US not done so back in the criminal and chaotic 1920s and 1930s, there wouldn’t be a law-abiding society we now live in.
You think law and order can only be achieved through education starting from the kindergarten and schools? OK, is education not one of the government’s functions?
As for Soviet Armenia, there was corruption, although certainly unmatched with the present-day corruption. But unlawfulness? Some people stole, but if they were caught what would happen? Was there not law and order in general? Was there not safety? Could someone build a hotel ten feet away from your window in a residential building because the owner is rubo or samo or fso? Could people not complain and have their voices heard? How about moral values? Societal values? General level of education? Unbelievable how people quickly forget the good things.
You say: “when I am in Armenia, I do not care who gives and receives bribes; I am not going to give or receive.” Yes, because you’re only visiting. Had you lived there permanently, I’d wish to see how you’d get a paper for your new business without giving a bribe. Good luck!
Sella, it’s good that you have such philosophy. Guess what, Armenians are doing something about their lives. They leave Armenia and move to countries where they will have the opportunities to do something about their lives. They cannot do much about their problems in Armenia because they can’t change the government that denies them these opportunities, so they go to countries where they can. That’s why you need to have democracy in Armenia, so they can do something about their lives.
People don’t follow the laws in Armenia because they do not have faith in the country, not because our people are “inherently” immature, as you suggest. It is not their country, they do not own it as they should, it’s owned by the oligarchs, who are above the law. Why do Armenians follow the law in the U.S. but not in Armenia? Because the U.S. gives us something that Armenia does not–a sense of ownership in the country. We know that the law equally applies to all, and we have no reason to respect the law. Imagine how powerful Armenia would be if people there were given that kind of sense of ownership in their country.
And don’t be surprised that Armenians do not get fooled by those few “positive” things you mentioned. The problems in Armenia are systematic–lack of rule of law, people’s inability to change an incompetent government. Every authoritarian regime tries to create some “positive” changes just to prolong its existence. The Armenian regime’s “positive” actions are not to help the people, the goal is to ensure the survival of the regime. That’s why they accepted the protocols, and that’s why they agreed to “reforms” relating to homosexuals and Jehovah’s witnesses, even though most people in Armenia were against them. They make little changes either under foreign pressure or to fool the people, instead of making systematic reforms, then they let the people accuse the foreign powers, while they continue to plunder the country.
Firstly I ´d like to excuse myself for so many grammatical and typographical erros in my posts.Please bear with me.I ask you all to consider the core of what I ¨suggest¨.At least ¨yes suggest ,until such time as when we have formed Rank & File in my Theses.That of into Professional Colleageus association in 15 fields of these. For,we are not as yet a Socially formed people,especially in Diaspora. EAch one on his own each group ,whether Benevolent,patriotic,Sportive,whatever acting independently of ea other….
Nvair´s commenets are quite in place.he has outlined many a prerequisite for the Govt. in RA..
Above all I agree that the Armeno-Turkish Conflict soliution or Genocide REcognition and reparations cannot be prrogative of RA ONLY.
None the less he(Nvair) should review this point,since we in Diaspora,even IF WE RE ORGANIZE TO BE LIKE I ADVOCATE EMPOWERED WITH A…
¨¨S u p r e m e C o u n c i l of the Armenian Diaspora¨,we cannot at Internationl instances be heard and paid attn to. Because we are not a Nation State outside the bpoundaries of the existing REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA.Let alone Artskah that so far has not been recognized as such.
Thence I suggest that we opt for FIRST OF ALL , BECOME REPRESENTED IN ARMENIA THROUGH OUR DELEGATED REPS.
IT IS FOR THIS ISSUE THAT AFTER LONG MEDITATIONS I HAVE THOUGHT OF HAVING AT THE VERY LEAST …5 SUCH,form our main 5 Community areas(not countreis).1and 2 .N.&.S.Americas,3 EU.·4,RF.5 The Middle East.These 5 delegates to be within the Ministry of Diaspora.Actually latter was initiated upon many a plea from alll of our communities. And also,the Govt. in RA knew that even in soviet times we had the Committee for relations with Abroad…..
I personally was in contact wioth Mr. hamzaspian ,pres. of same and weekly Editor Shake Varsian who supervised publication of the ¨´Haireniki Dzayn¨¨ Voice of the Fatherland…
Todos tenemos razon(spanish) we all have ¨¨good¨¨ reason in our viewpoint from hye to hragadar to Sella to you …but when it comes to acting as a GROUP…sorry to say we lack co operation.
WE must try haard to achieve the Espirt de Corps and try hard to come to a common denominator , at least in such issues as this one .That is , the Gov.t in Armenia is the one that is ACCEPTED BY UN et al…
We in Diaspora represent ¨¨the mnatsortats¨¨remnants as Hagop <Oshagan as correctly written about…residue..
Untill such time as we become Socially formed and have a Supreme Council.
All else is hypothetic ,at best well wishings and or critiques…
Welcome indeed,but not realizable.We neeed the Legal/Politicle, The Executive,The Economic , Thje Social Servioces and the Spiritual.
We only ostentate the latter in st. Etchmiadzi8which also should formally accept the existance of Great House of Cilicia Katholicssate(untill such time as our problem with great turkley is not solved).
In my theory for attaining the Supreme Counicl ,at end I arrive at a ONE THAT IS IN 5 DEPARTMENTS.As above mentioned, The Legal/political in Strasbourg, Exec. in NY. The Economic in Geneva,CA. The social services(later Repatriation organizing,as it is near abroad, last in St.Etchmiadzin.
In lack of this we have had tries ,last two in ;Moscow and Paris.Latter with the cliam to be Western armenian Parliament to which I adamantly opposed saying we have one in Yerevan,perido-we are not kurds- and that I reqeust you to change it.i believe changed now to be like a council or Body.
In mOscow they tried the Wrodl armenioan Congress..
I have formulated this to be in a way that is Neutral and encompassing all thse good people. Moscow,NY, France, Switzerland and ST.Etchmiadiz(YEREVAN) latter the good politician will grasp that Ra is also thus involved thrpough the Spiritual in the SUPREME COUNCIL OF DIAS`PORA…this much for now.
best to all Hasgcoghin
I would tend to believe that there is an organized circle in Armenia facilitating such “marriages” – a type of middleman service that locates vulnerable/impressionable women and arranges a meet with men from Iran looking to marry. Thus, the whole affair isn’t as harmless as it might appear. Does one actually think that Iranian men seeking brides haphazardly drive through Yerevan or villages with a sign advertising “money for brides”? We know that Iranians vacation in Armenia to enjoy the relatively lax social norms in Armenia compared to back home. Iranians in Yerevan organize their own concerts, clubs, etc. Why not dating and marriage services?
Hragadar,
I believe it all has to do with materialism. It is a general knowledge in Armenia that some Iranians or Arabs are wealthy. And, all young women know it. And when an Iranian approaches a good looking young lady, that young lady already knows that the guy might be wealthy and if she is materialistic, she will take that into consideration in her future dealings with the guy. Plus, once a lady gets married to a wealthy Iranians all her friends would know about it. Some of her friends and relatives might be invited to her wedding, a perfect situation to meet “new guys”. In the future she may introduce her friends to another man from her husband’s side. And, do not think that those women are necessarily poor; they are just materialistic. I know all this because I am from Armenia and have seen how women marry a Muslim man. That is why I do not put any blame on the government.
Sella:
Who’s obligation is it to fend off the demographic threat to a country? Not that a couple of so-called “brides” will change Armenia’s demographics, but in general? If the Turkish border opens, who must take responsibility that through marriages, etc. the demographics of the country is not threatened? Is it not the government’s function?
Nvair,
It is both people’s and government’s obligation. Mainly people’s-because it is their life. They should learn to have some self-respect, dignity and understand that they are not goods and cannot be sold. Government cannot knock on everyone’s door and ask if they have a girl for marriage and keep an eye on her so that the family or she herself does not “sell” her. Mr. Yegparian should do a research before publishing such an article. You cannot simply write what you heard-what if that someone was lying? We need facts from reputable sources. We need to know who sold whom? Under which circumstances? Did the girl want to marry the guy and the money was just a bonus or she married just for that money? Who are her parents? What if the family is involved in prostitution? Thousands of questions…
well said Sella.
No, it’s not mainly the people’s obligation. We the Armenian people created the government so it would maintain a sustainable state and serve the interests of the people. Otherwise, we wouldn’t need an Armenian republic, we could just spread in other countries where we would not have to sell ourselves. And if the government cannot do its job, it needs to be fired, as we do in a democracy. The government can and should create opportunities so these women do not have to degrate themselves. Materialism exists everywhere, it’s the beating heart of the American democracy, and yet the Armenian women in the U.S. don’t sell themselves to muslim sheiks. They have other opportunities for material wealth–career, education, business.
No, Sella, combating a demographic threat is solely the government’s obligation. You say people should learn to have some self-respect and dignity. But I asked you more than once in this regard. Soviet Armenians, i.e. the same Armenian ethnos living under a different government, had, I hope you’d agree, greater self-respect, greater dignity, as well as deeper moral values when there was a notion of shame in the society. Why do you think we haven’t heard, not from official sources but from our own midst, that those girls were sold as brides or that that neighbor’s daughter was involved in prostitution? Was it not because the government and the laws of the country, as well as the moral climate that was formed as a result of it, were more efficient in combating such societal menaces? If a group of desperate women prostitute themselves, the government would turn a blind eye on it, even possibly will get its share from the profit. But if an enraged, unemployed, and desperate young man loots semiliterate thug lfik samo’s shop, he’d be imprisoned, right? Because moral values have no monetary underpinnings, but trade and corruption do?
Those telling the author of the article to “STOP” need to stop trying to silence those who expose the regime in Armenia. They may be able to do that in Armenia, but such tactics will fail in the U.S. We have something called freedom of speech here, something that Armenia needs to learn to have.
Trying to be an apologist for the regime in Armenia only harms Armenia because it prolongs the life of its ruling regime just alittle longer. Those who care for the people of Armenia need to expose the crimes of the regime, they need to discredit the olygarchs publicly, that’s the only way to push for a change in that country.
As for whether Jewish Americans criticize Israel: Israel is a much better state (for Jews) than Armenia. It actually serves the interests of the Jewish people. The thugs in Armenia just serve themselves.
Vahagn,
Practicing a freedom of speech does not mean to label people thugs right and left and call Armenia a pathetic state, something that you have been doing lately quite frequently. Please stop it because it becomes really irritating to even read it. Not everybody, including myself, shares your idea of democracy and what should be practiced in Armenia. Armenians in Armenia need a constrictive criticism from Diasporan Armenians, not the destructive and overly negative criticism you have been using. If you cannot help Armenia at least do not harm. Sorry for being a little bit harsh, but I believe you have crossed the line.
Sella,
Here is news flash to you. Freedom of speech does mean calling thugs “thugs” and calling any government, even your own, a pathetic state. Stop telling others what to say and educate yourself about freedom of speech. The Russian-Armenian olygarchs are criminal thugs, and we all should call them that. We Armenians have created the state of Armenia, and if it has turned into the pathetic republic that it is now, then we all need to say it. That is how we the Diaspora can help the people in Armenia, by calling things by their name and pushing for a change, not by being apalogists for the regime in Armenia. When you act as an apologist for these thugs, you are actually harming Armenians by helping prolong the regime.
Vahagn,
Thanks for your suggestion, but I do not think I need to educate myself about freedom of speech– it is self-explanatory. Show me facts from reputable sources, statistics that all or vast majority of Russian-Armenian wealthy businessmen and Armenian government officials are thugs. Go ahead. If you do, I will agree with you that it is freedom of speech otherwise I would consider it a libel.
Well, Sella, judging from your post, you clearly do need to learn a thing or two about freedom of speech. First, libel is about specific individuals, not a government or a group. In successful democracies like the U.S., you have the right to say anything about any group, it is your opinion. Second, when it comes to persons in power or famous people, I don’t have to prove that they are thugs, I can say it if I just heard it from someone, or if it’s my opinion. It’s their burden to prove that my criticism is false, which makes sense because they are in a position of power, and they have greater resources to defend themselves.
Unfortunatley, in Armenia, it’s the other way around. The officials enjoy greater protection from libel than individuals. Until the recent abolition of criminal libel, defamation of officials was punished harder than the defamation of common people, which is just plain ridiculous. And now, officials can just sue newspapers out of existence through bogus libel suits. The way I speak about the thugs in Armenia and Russia is the way we *can* speak here in the United States. If Armenia allowed that to its citizens, perhaps things would be better there.
The best evidence for me that officials in Armenia are corrupt is the perception of the Armenians who leave the country because they are so sick of the regime. It’s their opinion that matters most, because it’s the people of Armenia who have the power to destroy the republic by emmigrating en masse.
For someone who is so sensitive about being misquoted, you are certainly playing fast and loose with paraphrasing my statements. I never said that “all or the vast majority of wealthy Russian-Armenians” are thugs, or that “all or the vast majority” of officials in Armenia are corrupt. Whatever the actual percentage, it is a well known fact, even admitted by top officials in Armenia, that corruption is widespread in the country. As for Russia, I was referring not just any wealthy Russian Armenians, but the oligarchs, the extremely wealthy who have strong connections and influence with the governments of both Russia and Armenia. Given the well known synthesis between business, politics, and organized crime in Russia, it is highly unlikely that many of these Russian-Armenian tycoons reached their position of power through honest means.
Vahagn,
What about a group libel ? While I am always happy learn a thing or two, you may want to learn how to refer to some people with some respect, especially when you have never met them and do not know much about their live.
There is no such thing as a group libel in a democratic country, certainly not in the U.S. In Europe, they have hate speech laws, but it’s for speech based on ethnicity or race, and these laws certainly don’t protect government officials from being criticized, no matter how harshly. And by the way, those hate speech laws would apply to your comments about the Armenian people.
I find it interesting how you feel offended for the government of Armenia and the olygarchs, but feel free to offend the Armenian people, by calling the society immature, blaming the women for being materialistic, and presuming (wrongly) that those who leave the country are potential criminals. There are those who praise the Armenian state and blame the Armenians’ “national character” or “mentality.” It’s racism. I prefer the other way around. I think we are a great people who happen to have a pathetic state. I think that is the better way, because you cannot change the entire nation’s “character,” you only alienate them by denigrating them. We can, however, change the government.
I am glad you like to learn a thing or two. You may want to learn to respect your own people.
Vahagn,
Again, we are going in circles. I did not call all women in Armenia materialistic, but the ones who sell them or marry for a money. Do you have another name for those women? BTW, materialistic women and men as well, are everywhere, in every corner of the globe that has nothing to do with Armenia. I do not call people who leave the country a potential criminal, I call them criminals when they are caught and convicted. I do respect my own people, but I have no respect for people, whether Armenian or not, who immigrate to a country and get involved in health insurance frauds, become a shoplifter, a thief, abuse foreign countries welfare system and so on. It is very clear what I said no need to go around over and over.
As the the particular details of the marriage cited in the article, I cannot say whether it was out of “materialism” or not. The fact remains that large sectors of the populace are tottering on the brink of poverty which makes women especially vulnerable to such foreign “enticements”. Here, in Armenia, where I write from, there were reports that Armenians with connections to the local police had been engaging in human trafficking – promising village women jobs in the Arab Gulf and then forcing them into prostitution. The fiasco was exposed by the local media, notably Hetq Online. Armenian law enforcement does its job selectively in halting such crimes. The government does share some responsibility in turning a blind eye to such crimes it regards as “victimless”.
The Southern Russian-Armenians in Armenia only speak Armenian but their culture is similar to that of other countries in the Caucuses. The Russian Armenians are more similar to Georgians and Russians This is not true with other Armenian groups such as the East Coast Armenian community or the Persian-Armenians. I am not saying that the East Coast Armenians and Persian-Armenians are perfect but they are much more Armenian in their culture than the Russian-Armenians. They have family values and respect the law and are more civil. I live in Glendale and sadly enough , there was a Russian-Armenian couple who actually opened up a brothel and tricked these poor Russian-Armenian girls to come to the US to work as maids but turned them into prostitutes through threats of violence.. The same things is true throughout the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.
I have to also add that Southern Russsian-Armenians from the Caususes are very different from the Northern Russian-Armenians based in Moscow and St.Petersburg. The Northern Russian-Armenians are an elite and they made great contributions in engineering and the sciences They had access to Russia’s best universities and research laboratories and had opportunities to make great achievements.It is remarkable that Russia’s two major military aircraft manufacters are headed by Northern Russian-Armenians. The head of Sukkoi aircraft who is currently designing the T-50 stealth fighter for Russia is Mikhail Aslanovich Pogosyan and the head of the MIG design bureau is Sergei Mikoyan the nephew of Artem MIkoyan the founder of the MIG design bureau. Levon Chailakhyan cloned the first living mammal before Dolly the Sheep.Abraham Alikhanov designed the first nuclear reactor in the USSR. Yuri Oganessian of Russia’s Dubna physics laboratory discovered a new element of the Periodic table of chemistry known as element 117 also known as Ununseptium.
Albert, all Armenian communities, in fact all human groups, have bad apples. I generally avoid generalizing about this or that Armenian group, and we all should avoid it. There is no legitimate proof for it, and it only harms our self-esteem. We are all Armenians. Many of the northern Russian Armenians are from Armenia and Artsakh. Before 1828, Russian Armenians were Iranian Armenians, it’s just that the border changed.
There is an Armenian saying, “ketsutyunn e voroshum gitaksutyun@” (“the living (condition) determines one’s thinking/conscience”). I bet if you put any Armenian group (or any human group) in Armenia, given the hopelessness, the lack of rule of law, and the oppressiveness of the elite, the number of “bad apples” will increase. Not everyone will resort to self-degradation, but we are talking about likelihoods.
The role of any government is to provide the optimal conditions for its population, so people will be likelier to choose the honest options instead of the degrading and criminal. The Armenian government has so far failed colossally to perform it’s role. It’s not just my opinion, it’s the opinion of the thousands of Armenians who spit at the republic by choosing to make another country as their home.
I agree with Vahagn that living condition does impact how people come out. Armenians who have lived in societies with opportunities to get high levels of education and to succeed have made great achievements but there are other factors too.The degree of racial purity also has an impact on behavior. Armenians with have an Azeri or Turk ancestor are more likely to be violent.
I have talked to good and decent Southern Russian Armenians( from Armenian and the Caucuses region) and they have told met that the bad apples are mostly the ( Southern Russian-Armenian) Azeri -Armenians. The Azeri-Armenians lived among the savage Azeris and this obviously had a negative impact on them. Furthermore the Soviet government tried to promote intermarriage among different ethnic groups. Many Azeri-Armenians married Azeris and this had a negative genetic impact on this group. With the NKR war, they all left and came to Armenia.
A genetic study proves what I have stated regarding the impact of Azeri and Azeri Armenian intermarriage.
Hum Genet. 2003 Mar;112(3):255-61. Epub 2002 Dec 14.
Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome.
I also must mention that the Northern Russian-Armenians in Moscow and St.Petersburg lived among higher class Russians and this had a positive impact on them whereas the Russians living in Southern Russia are lower class. I suspect that the Northern Russian Armenians are more purer than their southern Russian Armenian neighbors.
Hum Genet. 2003 Mar;112(3):255-61. Epub 2002 Dec 14.
Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome.
Nasidze I, Sarkisian T, Kerimov A, Stoneking M.
Source
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Inselstrasse 22, 04103, Leipzig, Germany. nasidze@eva.mpg.de
Abstract
A previous analysis of mtDNA variation in the Caucasus found that Indo-European-speaking Armenians and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanians were more closely related genetically to other Caucasus populations (who speak Caucasian languages) than to other Indo-European or Turkic groups, respectively. Armenian and Azerbaijanian therefore represent language replacements, possibly via elite dominance involving primarily male migrants, in which case genetic relationships of Armenians and Azerbaijanians based on the Y-chromosome should more closely reflect their linguistic relationships. We therefore analyzed 11 bi-allelic Y-chromosome markers in 389 males from eight populations, representing all major linguistic groups in the Caucasus. As with the mtDNA study, based on the Y-chromosome Armenians and Azerbaijanians are more closely-related genetically to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus than to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere. However, whereas the mtDNA results show that Caucasian groups are more closely related genetically to European than to Near Eastern groups, by contrast the Y-chromosome shows a closer genetic relationship with the Near East than with Europe.
Albert, what kind of crackpot study is that? Was it commissioned by Hitler or Aliev? And what kind of conclusions are we drawing from it? And the study is done by a NASIDZE and a KERIMOV? Yes, I am sure I am going to trust the validity of the study. And after what’s going on in Armenia, I am not trusting a Sarkisian either. Probably the other two gave him their Y-chromosomes and made him sign the study.
Did you consider that those decent Southern Russian Armenians could be talking out of prejudice? Many Armenians (just as many humans) hold prejudices against other groups and believe their little subgroup is the best. There is absolutely no evidence that one Armenian group is genetically superior to another one.
Even if the study is true, and even if Armenians and Azeris are genetically close, it does not mean at all that they are mixed with each other. Azeris and Turks have Armenian genes because their ancestors (the Oghuz Turks) kidnapped Armenian boys and girls. They also forcibly Islamized many Armenians. However, Armenians did not do these things to the Muslims. The genetic flow therefore was one-way: from Armenians to the Azeris. There was little if any intermixing because both Islam and the Armenian church prohibitted marriage between the two religions. On the other hand, Islamic law allowed the kidnapping and enslavement of Christian women and children during conflict.
While I am sure there were some intermarriages in the Soviet times, I have never heard that the USSR encouraged such marriages. Some intermarried, but I think you are exaggerating the number.
it is interesting to follow how dialog evolves, and I’m happy to observe this huge diversity of viewpoints. Bravo – Yegparian you made a good ground for deliberations, though your article is stupid, sorry:(
dear Albert, please dont bring this scientific texts up, cause the last guy I remember “experiencing” with this field was one Adolf from Germany. I’m sure you now how he finished:)))
Take a deep breath, and start realizing that Armenians are not superhumans, not Arians, but a good Christian people:))) thats it:)
I do not agree with Sella that we “need thousands of questions.” The basic, underlying question is – Why are so many people not only willing, but anxious, to leave the country?
The follow- up question is – What ultimately happens to a country that is depopulated?
We are spinning wheels in sand until we solve this primary problem.
Perouz,
It is perfectly fine that you do not agree.
Why are so many people not only willing, but anxious, to leave the country?
People always migrate to places with better economy. Some leave because they want to achieve more and do not have options in Armenia, some immigrate to have a free life and abuse the welfare system in some European countries with false passports. Back then in Armenia I knew a lot of families who paid thousands of dollars to falsie their passports, or acquire Jewish last names and immigrated to Germany. Then, when I lived in Germany I learned how some of them became shoplifters. I felt ashamed many times for those people who never learned to make an honest living. I read every now and then at http://www.news.am how Armenians have been arrested in LA or somewhere else for this or that criminal activities, I am assuming that those are Armenians who immigrated from Armenia.
Sella, if these immigrants are leaving Armenia because they are criminals, may I ask why did you leave Armenia? And what country do you live in now? Is it one of those democracies that you do not believe in?
Instead of feeling ashamed for being Armenian, the healthier (from a self-esteem point of view) option would be to be angry at the thugs ruling Armenia and to do something about it. If people are willing to falsify passports to escape from Armenia, what does it say about Armenia?
People don’t abandon their home and move to an uncertain future with the intention of becoming criminals. They move because they don’t see hope in their country, and they move to a country which provides such hope.
Every immigrant community has criminals, not because they were criminals to begin with, but because life in the beginning is hard, and some can’t take the pressure. Armenians who come to the U.S. know that they will have to work very hard to make a living. Most do not commit crimes and become respected citizens. Those who do, most of them learn to live right. And by the way, those who commit crimes, they spend enormous amount of money, time, and effort just so they will not be sent back to Armenia. Again, what does it say about Armenia? How messed up of a country it has to be, that people suffer for years but refuse to go back.
By the way, if most Armenians coming to the U.S. planned to abuse the system and become criminals, they would all be sent back, and there would not be a Diaspora. Again, it seems you are choosing to offend our people, instead of accusing the state of Armenia, which is racist.
”Sella, if these immigrants are leaving Armenia because they are criminals, may I ask why did you leave Armenia?”
They were not criminals when they left. They left to Europe (US does not have those generous welfare systems that some of the Western European countries have) because they want to have a free life. For certain number of years for example the German government will give them a place to stay, money for food, cloths and for some small expanses. They are happy. I have seen families bragging about it that they were having a free life in Europe. Not all of them are like that of course. There are honest people who want to achieve more or have a comfortable life so no problem there.
Of course you may ask why I left. I had a good job in the hospital and was involved in research in a field that was and is quite promising so the reason was not financial for me. My problem was with the middle age and elderly people (mostly colleagues at higher positions) with Soviet mentality, who wanted to push corruption and the ripping off patients and most importantly their unprofessionalism and luck of drive to advance. I wanted to get a PhD in Europe and further advance in research so I left. I do feel guilty about it though because I could have stayed and contributed to my country instead of contributing to a foreign country. Hopefully I can go back sometime in the future.
Vahagn,
Where did you read that I was ashamed that I was Armenian? In fact, I am very proud to be Armenian; I love my culture, language, literature, art, architecture, music, Armenian family values, food etc. I said I felt ashamed for people who never learned to make an honest living. Yes, I did and will always do, unless those people have mental problems and cannot control their actions. Please be reasonable. What I wrote is posted and everyone can read it.
“If people are willing to falsify passports to escape from Armenia, what does it say about Armenia?”
Vahagn,
Not sure if you know what methods most of the Armenians who emigrated to Europe right after the collapse of Soviet Union used.
Here is the most common ways that they and many other nations from Soviet Union have used.
People would pay thousands of dollars to obtain visas to Poland (It is easier than to obtain a visa to Western European countries). Once they arrive in Poland they will cross the German-Poland border by foot at night and get into the German side. Once they cross the border or right before crossing the border they will burn their passports. They will run all walk until spotted by the German border keepers. They will surrender and will be taken to be questioned who they are and why they escaped to Germany. They will give a fictional name and tell that they escaped because the government was after them and it was life threatening to stay in Armenia. Pure lies. Or one of the most common one during or after NKR war-one of the suppose will present himself/herself as an Armenian the other one Azeri and they would claim that they could live neither in Armenia not in Azerbaijan. Again, pure lies. German government will inquire about those people to the Armenian government with the fictional name that they were given. The answer from the Armenian government will be that there are no such citizens in Armenia. The German government cannot send them back because they are claiming they will be killed-pure lies. So they will be kept in special isolated places as I said will be given food, cloths and some money to spend for certain number of years and will not be allowed to work. This will go on for a few years, in the meanwhile the immigrants will hire a lawyer to be allowed to stay, and this legal process will go on for a few years, could be up to 10 years. Eventually, if they win the case they will be allowed to stay and work, if not, they will be deported to Armenia. Once they are back, they would have enough money saved to go another country, like France or Netherlands. Do you want me to have a respect for people like that? I am sorry, but I do not have. If you do, I would say that it is great and you might be a really generous person.
Or one of the most common one during or after NKR war-one of the suppose will present himself/herself as an Armenian the other one Azeri and they would claim that they could live neither in Armenia not in Azerbaijan
Spouse not suppose.
Well, Sella, congratulations, you left Armenia because of corruption. Guess what, it’s precisely the reason why many other Armenians leave the country, because they are just so sick of the corruption.
And if you don’t think that it’s the corrupt system that drove you out, let me ask you this. When you sensed the corruption in your hospital, did you move to another hospital? Did you report the bribery to the police? Did you alert your representative in the National Assembly of the problem? You see, these are the things that someone living in a democratic country would do. But instead you saw that the problem was systematic, and that there was no hope in pursuing any of these options. And so you chose to change your country. Well, good for you, you should not feel guilty about it, because the state of Armenia failed you and lost one more bright individual. It’s your choice to feel guilty, but do you think it is appropriate to blame others for naming the real source of the problem, the corrupt government with its olygarchic system?
Didn’t you blame the society for being”not mature” for their refusal to wear seat belts? Sure, you don’t call all women materialists, or all emigrants criminals, but every time a problem was mentioned to you, you accused a segment of the people. If people disobey the laws, they are not mature. If they leave the country, they just want more or they want the free life. Well, the problems that Armenia faces, including it’s staggering emigration, these are not isolated problems, these are widespread, so if each time you blame this or that segment of the society, the sum of these segments becomes the population in general. And blaming the people is useless because people will do what they will do under the given circumstances regardless of what you call them, and they will keep leaving the country until there is no country left. It’s is much easier to change the government than to change the mentality of millions.
Those Armenians who use fraud to leave Armenia, you are describing people who are so desparate, so sick of their country, that they will go through so much trouble, expense, and humiliation just to leave it. You may feel no respect for these people, well I feel no respect for a country that makes its people run away so fast. These laywers that they hire, they don’t come cheap. In the U.S. too, many Armenian immigrants spend 10-20 years paying lawyers year after year just so they will not go back to Armenia. This just tells me how messed Armenia is to force tens of thousands of its people to go through all that.
You may have all the disrespect for these people, but it’s irrelevant, because it’s the country of Armenia that’s losing in the end. You and other young professionals could have contributed to Armenia. All these Armenians that come to the U.S., they study, work hard, create, they make their communities prosper, and their tax dollars have helped make Glendale one of the safest cities in America. I would like to see that in Armenia.
Albert, this comment is problematic. If mixing Azeri blood with Armenian blood can lead to the degradation of the Armenian character, than why wouldn’t Armenian blood ‘uplift’ the Azeri character. Couldn’t it go both ways? Aren’t you implying that the Armenian character is so weak and the Azeri character so strong, that the Armenian character succumbs to the ‘negative influence’ of the Azeri? I don’t buy this suggestion of a genetic determinant. I think what you observe is the result of cultural influences and economic insecurity caused by chronic regional strife .
Sella, Nvair: great, civil exchange of viewpoints.
I side with Sella (mostly).
Her closing paragraph sums it up well why I do:
{“…..I do not like to be around people who complain and nag all the time while overlooking all the positives. And, most of all I do not like negativism……”}
couldn’t have said better myself.
Avery,
Excessive panegyrics may be as Illusory and detrimental as excessive negativism. I sense there are things you could have said better than Sella who left I guess because she didn’t like to be around most people in Armenia who complain and nag all the time. If the people complain, it means there are ugly things to complain about, not because it gives them esthetical pleasure to complain; more so to leave their homeland. I think it was George Bernard Shaw who said: “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” Remove the “world” and insert the “country” instead, and it’ll be clear that by narrow-mindedly focusing on a few positives one can never achieve progress. A recent example. The government wished to open a boutique marketplace in a park in downtown Yerevan next to the maternity house. For businesses and trade, from which the government would no doubt benefit, it’d be a positive, I guess. Yet, the people complained and nagged, and after sit-ins and clashes with the police the whole thing was called off. We should know from the history of this country that too much power in the hands of the government may be detrimental for the people. Therefore, Sella, there have always been and will be the people who would “complain and nag” pointing out to many negatives and not playing ostrich about them!
“Yes, Sella, I think more frequent contacts with ordinary people in the country, especially in the villages, would shape your views more accurately.”
Nvair,
I was one of them, still am, and always will be. Still have a lot of contact with them, through visits, Skype and phone calls.