PARIS—French President Nicolas Sarkozy will immediately submit a new draft of a law punishing denial of the Armenian Genocide if France’s top judicial body rejects it, two ministers told AFP on Feb. 1.
“The president told us in cabinet that he would immediately submit a new draft if there is a rejection by the Constitutional Council” of a bill approved recently by the French Parliament, said one of the ministers, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Another minister said Sarkozy criticized cabinet members who had opposed the bill, saying, they “did not see past the ends of their noses.”
He said a rejection of the bill by the Constitutional Council could open the door to questioning a law that penalizes denial of the Holocaust.
After being approved by the National Assembly and Senate, the law was put on hold on Jan. 31 after politicians opposed to the legislation demanded that its constitutionality be examined.
Two separate groups of French politicians who oppose the legislation–from both the Senate and the Lower House–said they had formally requested the Constitutional Council to examine the law. The groups said they each had gathered more than the minimum 60 signatures required to ask the council to test the law’s constitutionality.
The council is obliged to deliver its judgment within a month, but this can be reduced to eight days if the government deems the matter urgent.
Despite government backing of the law, at least two ministers, Foreign Minister Alain Juppe and Agriculture Minister Bruno Le Maire, had spoken out against the bill.
“French President Sarkozy could have signed, and turned into a law, the bill that criminalizes the denial of genocides [including the Armenian Genocide], but he preferred to wait until the statutory deadline, and this enabled the bill’s opponents to get active and appeal to the Constitutional Council,” read a statement from the Political Affairs Office of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) Bureau.
There are three options the Constitutional Council could consider in addressing the genocide bill:
The council could rule that the resolution as approved is consistent with the constitution, and thus pave the way for a presidential signature; could determine that portions of the bill are not consistent with the French Constitution, in which case the bill would return to the National Assembly to be amended (which could cause problems, since the National Assembly will go on vacation in one month to prepare for the presidential elections); or could find the resolution entirely unconstitutional, in which case Sarkozy would have to re-introduce the matter in the National Assembly.
The president cannot sign the bill until the Constitutional Council reaches a decision.
“A rejection of the bill by the Constitutional Council could open the door to questioning a law that penalizes denial of the Holocaust”.
Everybody knows that the Jewish lobbies can do miracles when they want. Now, they have an interest in making approve the bill; the Armenians’ strategy is now to make all efforts to convince them of their interest.
Just like Turkish lobbies can do miracles because they have the money??? yes the country who has the money usually has the power.. so it is not surprise what you say Roger Akl…
I think Armenian Diaspora needs to dedicate more resources to improve the life quality and sustainability in Armenia. Recognition of Genocide is important but more resources is wasted just to hurt Turkey. French Politicians / Democrats also are just abusing Genocide Issue for elections.
I partially agree the comment above but Holocaust is different because genocide term was invented after WWII and it does not tense relations with Germany since they already accept what they did.
I like reading comments on this website but I can not stand when some people who turn their back to other killings. Especially Khojaly Massacre. There can be NO excuse to civilian killings. I am sure, the owners of those comments(on other news) if happen to were born as a Turkish in 1900s, They probably would have butchered more Armenians than most Turks.
I think Turkey is making a strategic mistake by having the border closed. It just feeds the hatred for Turks. Growing Turkish Economy is also a big potential.(17th biggest economy per wiki) for Armenians.
Can someone refer me some articles about
-Kurdish and German Role in 1915 (eastern region was all Kurdish in 1915.Ottoman Army was in German Control)
– mass killing cemeteries/areas found in Turkey/Syria
-request from Turkey due to Genocide Recognition (Reparations does not sound reasonable but Turkey should honer Armenian properties left behind since they honer Ottoman Titles even in 2010s per what I read)
Thanks
Emre Riddle you made several unintelligent statements and let me point that out for you…
1. You said: I think Armenian Diaspora needs to dedicate more resources to improve the life quality and sustainability in Armenia
You can think alot of things Emre but it does not mean you are right or you know anything about it… Let the Diaspora do its things as we are doing.. why don’t you worry about when will the Turkish govt open the borders and stop harassing Armenians by helping Azeris to bully and threaten my country..
2. You said: Recognition of Genocide is important but more resources is wasted just to hurt Turkey.
Would you mind sharing what resources are used to HURT Turkey? Is that your mentality?? that ARmenians are seeking justice to HURT Turkey?? this sentenece alone discredits your entire post because it shows me that you truly don’t get or understand the fight Armenians are fighting against your Turkish govt… maybe you truly don’t know or you know but you are in denial… or you are so blinded by your sly and manipulative govt, that you can’t see beyond your nose…
3.You said: I partially agree the comment above but Holocaust is different because genocide term was invented after WWII and it does not tense relations with Germany since they already accept what they did.
Holly smokes… why is it soo difficult for regular Turks do some research before typing up a sentence.. I would understand if you live in Turkey as your freedom of speech is usually blocked by your govt and you don’t have access to the data that Turks living in US or any other country have. However.. if you are in Turkey and you don’t have access to internet.. here is what the world knows and Turkey refuses to get through her think head…
Raphael Lemkin (June 24, 1900 – August 28, 1959) was a Polish lawyer of Jewish descent. He is best known for his work against genocide, a word he coined in 1943 from the root words genos (Greek for family, tribe, or race) and -cide (Latin for killing).[1] He first used the word in print in Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation – Analysis of Government – Proposals for Redress (1944), while the Holocaust was occurring.
In 1933 Lemkin made a presentation to the Legal Council of the League of Nations conference on international criminal law in Madrid, for which he prepared an essay on the Crime of Barbarity as a crime against international law. The concept of the crime, which later evolved into the idea of genocide, was based on the Armenian Genocide[3][4][5] and prompted by the experience of Assyrians[2] massacred in Iraq during the 1933 Simele massacre.[
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, such as: (a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Lemkin’s broader concerns over genocide, as set out in his “Axis Rule in Occupied Europe”,[8] also embraced what may be considered as non-physical, namely, psychological acts of genocide which he personally defined as:
“Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.”
“Genocide has two phases: one, destruction of the national pattern of the oppressed group; the other, the imposition of the national pattern of the oppressor. This imposition, in turn, may be made upon the oppressed population which is allowed to remain or upon the territory alone, after removal of the population and the colonization by the oppressor’s own nationals.”
He also outlined his various observed “techniques” [9] on achieving genocide which ranged from:
Political
Social
Cultural [10][11]
Economic
Biological
Physical:
Endangering Health
Mass Killing
Religious
Moral
So as you can see Lemkin coined the word GENOCIDE based on what happened to Armenians… so your statement above is not valid…
4. You said: I like reading comments on this website but I can not stand when some people who turn their back to other killings. Especially Khojaly Massacre. There can be NO excuse to civilian killings
We are very aware of other tragedies and we have no issue talking about them.. but the topic is not about them.. the topic is on Genocide…. yes Khojaly incidents was tragedy and not autrocities like Genocide was… however, if you are trying to compare such events, I would not be so quick as mentioning one incident when there are sooo many done by Azeris…here is a list of few massacres that one of my friend’s shared with us that you may not be aware…..
1988 Sumgait massacre of Armenians.
1988 Kirovabad massacre of Armenians.
1990 Baku massacre of Armenians.
1991 “Operation Koltso” (combined Azeri OMON & Soviet operation)
1992 Maragha massacre of Armenians.
1992 Stepanakert: months long terror bombardment by Grads and artillery.
City leveled. Estimated 2000 Armenian civilians killed.
Thousands more wounded.
In addition, the military invasion of Nagorno Karabagh Republic by Azeris which cost thousands of Armenian lives.
Now if Turkey want to be among the civilized nations like Germany who long ago apologized and paid for her deeds, Turkey needs to do the same.. until she takes responsibility for the Genocide and YES REPARATION (of course it is and will be reasonable with or without titles..) , we will not stop… plain and simple…
Have a nice day
Gayane
Emre Riddle:
I think you need to dedicate yourself convincing your Denialist compatriots and their agents to stop the worldwide campaign of Denying the Armenian Genocide, and diplomatically attacking any foreign country that does.
We can take care of our Armenia and Artsakh: I know you mean well (you do, don’t you ?), but we Armenians of Diaspora (East and West) got it covered.
Regarding: { I like reading comments on this website but I can not stand when some people who turn their back to other killings. Especially Khojaly Massacre. There can be NO excuse to civilian killings}.
Show us on this website people “who turn their back to other killings”.
You want to discuss the Khojali tragedy (1992) ? OK. I will be glad to. But first tell us what you know and what your position is on the following massacres, which by the way were pre-planned, pre-meditated, and State organized massacres of Azeri-citizen Armenian civilians hiding in their own apartments:
1988 Sumgait massacre of Armenians
1988 Kirovabad massacre of Armenians
1990 Baku massacre of Armenians
Also, the following atrocities and war crimes committed against Armenian civilians by Azeri military:
1991 “Operation Koltso” (combined Azeri OMON & Soviet operation)
1992 Maragha massacre of Armenians
1992 Stepanakert: months long war-crime bombardment by Grads and artillery.
City leveled. Estimated 2000 civilians killed. Thousands more wounded.
And of course the military invasion of Nagorno Karabagh Republic by Azeris which cost thousands of Armenian lives.
And see if you can find a single Azeri website (.az) that discusses Sumgait, Kirovabad, Baku massacres of Armenians.
After you have done that, I will spend as much time with you as you need – to discuss Khojali.
forgot to say “Thanks”
Emre,
I appreciate the polite tone of your post, but I think you carry some misconceptions about the Armenian Diaspora.
First, Armenians are as heterogenous as any other people in worldwide and historic Diaspora. So when you reference what Armenians do or should do more, you imply that we act in a single unified way.
Second, the Diaspora does a great deal to help Armenia. In addition to the United Fund, whch has raised hundreds of millions of dollars, there are scores of church and private organizations, such as AGBU, not to mention billions in remittances. The Orthodox and Evangelical Churches do a great deal, as do private non-sectarian groups.
Third, what Armenian individuals and organizations do politically does not come at the expense of aid to Armenia. What Armenians pay in dues to political organizations is microscopic in comparison to what the Turkish and Azeri governments spend to lobby American members of Congress and the Executive Branch, not to mention millions more that Turkish groups in the USA spend in fruitless efforts to remove Genocide education from state curricula.
As to lobying, Pro Publica, placed on line four years ago data showing that Turkey spends more than any other nation to lobby Congress except Israel.
Turkish government proaganda tells you that Armenans are wealthy and powerful, but as you point out, we are no match for the world’s 17th largest economy. All that we have is truth.
If you live here, why do you allow racists like Ergun Kirlikovali lead the ATAA? His internet posts calling Armenians of 1915 and today a race of criminals sound just like Hitler. We know there are brave Turkish people in Turkey who do not stand for racism, where are liberal voices here?
What have you done to tell the racists in your country or here to shut up? They are the people to whom you should ask questions.
Demanding recognition for the Genocide and reparations is not an effort unfairly to injure Turkey anymore than prosecuting a thief is. Turkish nationalists pretend that demanding justice is somehow an affront to their honor. An affront to honor is the untrue accusation of wrongdoing. Nobody says Turks of today killed Armenans en masse. Turks use this to squelch debate and discussion.
Your claim that the Genocide was a Kurdish or German affair is also misleading. Some Germans encouraged it, while others did not; some Kurds cooperated with Turkish authorities, some did not, and some of our Kurdish brothers and sisters housed and defended Armenians.
The fault for the Genocide lays no more with the Kurds than the fault for the Jewish Genocide lies with Croats and Ukrainians who helped man Concentration Camps. The orders came from the CUP, and were carried out by Turkish Governors and officials through spoecial organizations. Some Kurds were merely accomplices.
To bring this down to the detail level, read Umit Ungor’s work on the destruction of Diyarbekir Armenians, or his recent work on the theft and appropriation of Armenan wealth. Try reading the memoir of Bishop Balakian, published two years ago, or the autobiography of a Venezuelan officer, de Nogales, who served in the Ottoman Army and participated in the killing of civilians.
You want to know where Armenans were buried? They weren’t buried. They were clubbed to death, shot, raped, stabbed and left dead on roads and trails where the corpses were eaten by dogs and vultures. There is a famous edict Talaat Pasha sent out to capture and kill anyone who photographed their corpses. He knew that the British threatened to hang him for crimes against humanity in 1915, so he did not want to leave any evidence.
Avery jan.. guess you beat me to it my friend..:) love love love…:)
You are mistaken to believe that the Armenian Cause is a desire to ‘hurt’ Turkey. Armenians simply want justice for a great crime. The fact that Turkey won’t come to terms with this history is what is hurting TUrkey.
Emre,
I forgot: Armenians were frequently burned to death in barns, Churches and schools. They were also often drowned. Many women threw themselves into rivers to avoid rape.
I know that a nationalist argument is that there are no cemeteries – is that what you are hinting at? Reminiscent of JG deniers who say the burn chambers at Auschwitz were too small and too few to burn up the numbers ofinnocent people Jews and historians say died there.
Lets try again as my first post did not make it..
Emre Riddle you made several statements I don’t agree with
1. You said: I think Armenian Diaspora needs to dedicate more resources to improve the life quality and sustainability in Armenia
You can think alot of things Emre but it does not mean you are right or you know anything about it… Let the Diaspora do its things as we are doing.. why don’t you worry about when will the Turkish govt open the borders and stop harassing Armenians by helping Azeris to bully and threaten my country..
2. You said: Recognition of Genocide is important but more resources is wasted just to hurt Turkey.
Would you mind sharing what resources are used to HURT Turkey? Is that your mentality?? that ARmenians are seeking justice to HURT Turkey?? this sentenece alone discredits your entire post because it shows me that you truly don’t get or understand the fight Armenians are fighting against your Turkish govt… maybe you truly don’t know or you know but you are in denial… or you are so blinded by your sly and manipulative govt, that you can’t see beyond your nose…
3.You said: I partially agree the comment above but Holocaust is different because genocide term was invented after WWII and it does not tense relations with Germany since they already accept what they did.
Holly smokes… why is it soo difficult for regular Turks do some research before typing up a sentence.. I would understand if you live in Turkey as your freedom of speech is usually blocked by your govt and you don’t have access to the data that Turks living in US or any other country have. However.. if you are in Turkey and you don’t have access to internet.. here is what the world knows and Turkey refuses to get through her think head…
Raphael Lemkin (June 24, 1900 – August 28, 1959) was a Polish lawyer of Jewish descent. He is best known for his work against genocide, a word he coined in 1943 from the root words genos (Greek for family, tribe, or race) and -cide (Latin for killing).[1] He first used the word in print in Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation – Analysis of Government – Proposals for Redress (1944), while the Holocaust was occurring.
In 1933 Lemkin made a presentation to the Legal Council of the League of Nations conference on international criminal law in Madrid, for which he prepared an essay on the Crime of Barbarity as a crime against international law. The concept of the crime, which later evolved into the idea of genocide, was based on the Armenian Genocide[3][4][5] and prompted by the experience of Assyrians[2] massacred in Iraq during the 1933 Simele massacre.[
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, such as: (a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Lemkin’s broader concerns over genocide, as set out in his “Axis Rule in Occupied Europe”,[8] also embraced what may be considered as non-physical, namely, psychological acts of genocide which he personally defined as:
“Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.”
“Genocide has two phases: one, destruction of the national pattern of the oppressed group; the other, the imposition of the national pattern of the oppressor. This imposition, in turn, may be made upon the oppressed population which is allowed to remain or upon the territory alone, after removal of the population and the colonization by the oppressor’s own nationals.”
He also outlined his various observed “techniques” [9] on achieving genocide which ranged from:
Political
Social
Cultural [10][11]
Economic
Biological
Physical:
Endangering Health
Mass Killing
Religious
Moral
now please take the information above and truly think about it…As you can see Lemkin coined the word GENOCIDE based on what happened to Armenians… so your statement above is not valid…
4. You said: I like reading comments on this website but I can not stand when some people who turn their back to other killings. Especially Khojaly Massacre. There can be NO excuse to civilian killings
We are very aware of other tragedies and we have no issue talking about them.. but the topic is not about them.. the topic is on Genocide…. yes Khojaly incidents was tragedy and not autrocities like Genocide was… however, if you are trying to compare such events, I would not be so quick as mentioning one incident when there are sooo many done by Azeris…here is a list of few massacres that one of my friend’s shared with us that you may not be aware…..
1988 Sumgait massacre of Armenians.
1988 Kirovabad massacre of Armenians.
1990 Baku massacre of Armenians.
1991 “Operation Koltso” (combined Azeri OMON & Soviet operation)
1992 Maragha massacre of Armenians.
1992 Stepanakert: months long terror bombardment by Grads and artillery.
City leveled. Estimated 2000 Armenian civilians killed.
Thousands more wounded.
In addition, the military invasion of Nagorno Karabagh Republic by Azeris which cost thousands of Armenian lives.
Now if Turkey want to be among the civilized nations like Germany who long ago apologized and paid for her deeds, Turkey needs to do the same.. until she takes responsibility for the Genocide and YES REPARATION (of course it is and will be reasonable with or without titles..) , it is our duty to continue our fight and we will do so until justice prevails..
Have a nice day
Gayane
dear roger, i do not believe in the restriction of speech even if it is hatefull and a lie. there will always be denialists and revisionists historians and fascists who hate because they have lost there way in life. the question turks must ask is how much do we love our children and what kind of world do we want our kids to live in? i would think we all want the same a peacefull, secure, just and truthfull world. therefore, lets work together and change the world for the better and lets stop the denial. a huge burden will be lifted from your shoulders. usually rape victims that have all the markings of rape and violence are not lying. so it is that jews, greeks, assyrians, armenians, chaldeans, and others are not lying about their sufferings. we are one, one God, one planet.
The Holocaust is not different simply because the people who did it have accepted their responsibility. Truth really does matter, so does justice.
Here is a key to your understanding: the term Genocide was coined by a lawyer named Rafael Lemkin, and stemmed from his studies of the Armenian Genocide.
A quote from Wikipedia:
In 1933 Lemkin made a presentation to the Legal Council of the League of Nations conference on international criminal law in Madrid, for which he prepared an essay on the Crime of Barbarity as a crime against international law. The concept of the crime, which later evolved into the idea of genocide, was based on the Armenian Genocide[3][4][5]
You can read books like “Black Dog of Fate” by Peter Balakian and many, many others. They do contain references to German government sources and others in eye witness reports of officers. Also look at the work of the International Association of Genocide Scholars. The very first mistake is to think that recognition is about hurting Turkey. It is not. It would not make a difference whether the party responsible was Turkey or France or Germany: then the legislation would be written to recognize the crime and where it occurred. This one occurred and has repeatedly been proved to have been deliberately planned and executed at the highest levels of then-Turkish government.
I hope that Emre will notice that Lemkin’s work on the genocide convention began long before WWII but after the Armenian genocide and was based largely on the inhuman events of the Armenian genocide and the fact that Turkey suffered few sanctions for having committed it.
It’s the time for Lemkin words to be heard again when he coined the G word.
It’s time for his people to stand up and be counted.
“For evil to flourish, all that is needed is for good people to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke
Jerry,
Your people always have a apoplectic attack if any reference is made to a book written by any Turkish author, yet you just gave an example of a “reference book by Peter Balakian [Black Dog of Faith]”. So your message is that ALL books and references by Armenian authors must be gospel, whereas anything written by Turks and/or Turkic authors is a lie. Debate us and we’ll show you just how accurate (and “truthful”) your cherished Armenian authors, like Balakian, or your IAGS, truly are!
Well well well.. “debate us” is the speech Robert the Turk spoke yet again.. guess he never gets tired of his old broken radio speech.. must be tough to be you Robert the Turk.. huh??
I believe Mr. Emre(Hungarian?,is it sounds,then could use a few nice complimentary words to you)Anyhow,instead of writing to you long explantaitons as to what you wish to learn here, give it to you striaght and in concse format,what is in Govt. archives of many countries.
After the horrendous Crimes that the Ottoman Turks committed against their own subjects,i.e., Armenians,Assyrians,Greeks and Alevis .etc., especially in WWI era was so openly displayed WHEN OTTOMAN TURKISH MILITARY TRIBUNALS JUDGED AND CONDEMNED TO DEATH THE MAIN UPPER LEVEL TRIO ENVER,JEMAL AND TALAAT.These three were eventually gunned down by Armenian Avengers, as they had convneiently escaped from being hanged or killed by the Tribunal….go figure out how…
And there are hundred of thousands of documents as to what they did to Armeians .Most important.
They had NO RIGHT TO EVICT THE ARMENIANS FROM THEIR MILLENIA OLD H A B I T A T …
Hrant Dink In Los Angles has said something to the effect when delivering a discourese in Los Angeles and I quote:”Even if they had put my people in Golden aircraft and sent them away from their homes..etc., that is GENOCIDE
I have read and appreciated Avery’s and Jda’s answers to Emre Riddle. Very well done gentlemen and thank you.
Sarkozy is not only one European leader who understands that Turks are dangerous for their countries and they must stop them. Angelela Merkel also is worried by Turks existence in Germany .
The fact that Turks could bribe some senators in France, is already a sign that after 50 years French people have to leave the France land.
I appreciate all responses. Especially to Jda. A normal Turk, in school learns history within the borders well defined by the government. It is a very diverse country due to mandatory population exchanges from the Balkans.(which is another sad story).. There are several polarization in the country. (Such as Leftist-Rightist, Religious-Non-religions, Kurdish-Turkish etc)
Do you know why Turks call it relocation? Actually they don’t know a lot after Deportation Law apart from some that were incidents such as some Armenians being attacked by Kurds by revenge/gain etc. Ottoman Empire in Gallipoli (From 25 April 1915 but there was several months preparation before that) against France ,UK, Australia etc. which ended up with 250K causalities till Jan. 1916. On East, from 1914 there is Caucasus Campaign.
From Wiki
From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of the Russian Army… Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, Let your will the peoples [Armenian] remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ received resurrection for a new free life….[12]
—Nicholas II of Russia
Armenians volunteers joined to Russian Army. (Not all I’ve seen names of Armenians in statues in Gallipoli) Ottoman Empire had logistics problem since some Armenian groups cut their logistic supply. Christians paid extra taxes in Ottoman Era but they had no military obligation till WWI. If you search about the job profile of Christians in Ottoman Empire, it seem like it worked well for them. Then they were forced to deport which resulted with 400K death due to famine and disease. Local massacres to Turks and Armenians occurred in several towns. Armenians wanted their freedom but it became a tragedy instead. (You don’t have to correct last 3 sentences since it is Turkish view. But remaining are Wikipedia facts)
I am an Engineer, I even questioned existence of God.. (I am sorry this is way more sensitive subject but) I cannot think of any natural way of 1.5M people disappearing without leaving any trace. There must be some mass execution zones.
So if we go back to our subject, even if every country recognizes Armenian Genocide, it still won’t heal the pain. I don’t know how many Turkish civilians killed (maybe 1/1000 or way less I have no data) yet tragic stories tend to spread from ear to ear and each time it doubles as if it happened in every town in eastern region. Turks also get confused by some incidents made by Russian Armenians in Russian Army when they were receding as if all were volunteered Anatolian Armenians.
You cannot dictate a fact with political pressure. It needs to come from the people. Once relations improve and border opens, a few individuals then thousands will hear what they have not been told and your side of the story.
Most of you won’t like but Turkey is the key to economical solution to Armenia. Economically Turks can make huge investments in Armenia. Many textile investments were moved to Egypt. Azeris are becoming more powerful and they are not Turkey’s little brother anymore. They develop relations with Israel even thru many disputes coming from the government officials.(behind doors)
Diaspora aids cannot sustain Armenian Economy. Diaspora Armenians are getting Americanized. Armenia has problems with Georgia. ( Turks and Georgians cross the border with an ID now without needing a passport. Very north eastern cities use Georgian Airports to go to their cities in Turkey.) Iran is only neighbor with stable relations with Armenia. But they are not a stable country at all. They want to gain knowledge/potential to nuclear weapons.
It is easy to be emotional while you have a nice SUV, 3 door garage houses, lots of acres but I think most important thing is what the best is for Armenians in Armenia. It’s been almost 100 years since the genocide happened I think the genocide debate can wait another 20 years till Turks digest the facts slowly. Actions such as in France, just feeds the opposition in Turkey. For ex. in late 1990s school books started more talking about the 1915s. Nice things happened as well actually. Everything that might cause pre-judgments against Greeks was removed. Btw there is NOTHING bad about Armenians in school books I’ve seen so far. Several examples of how good relationship Turks/Armenians before 1900s are also brought up on TV/Media often.
I cannot be proud or guilty for what my grandfathers did. Pride must be about something I achieved/did
Nationalism is a disease but religion as well. You grew up in it. Once you try to get out (read different opinions, question etc.) you think that you get sick whereas it is just the fresh air you are breathing.
Emre:
I had no complaints about your post, in fact as a Turkish citizen myself I think you accurately showed the situation in Turkey concerning the AG…
Then I read this :”It’s been almost 100 years since the genocide happened I think the genocide debate can wait another 20 years till Turks digest the facts slowly.”
I think we’ve, we being Turkey/Turkish people, have evaded the AG long enough. You can look at it like this or like that, and yes the Turkish position has some validity to it, but at the end of the day genocide is genocide, and enough is enough.
You also said this: “I cannot think of any natural way of 1.5M people disappearing without leaving any trace.”
That number, that 1.5 million is a deal breaker. I also cannot think of any natural way 1.5 million people can just “disappear.” That is because genocide is NOT a natural occurrence. And as you said the Turkish casualties are probably like 1/1000 less. ONE sided violence is NOT inter-ethnic war time violence.
I’m going to be honest, for a while I didn’t think it was genocide. I had an idea in my mind and I was trying to prove it. But then I heard the Armenian position from someone who did so in a very unbiased fashion (they were not Armenian, it was my history professor). I looked at the situation not as Turk or Kurd or Armenian but as a human. Believe me, the truth is out there, and Turks in Turkey CAN find the truth too, they just have to be willing to look. You can argue and debate the genocide forever, you can even debate the validity of the Holocaust, but the mere fact that you can contest something and debate it does not mean you actually have a legitimate argument.
I understand the gist of what you are trying to say, but your premise is wrong. And this “There are several polarization in the country. (Such as Leftist-Rightist, Religious-Non-religions, Kurdish-Turkish etc)” does not prove diversity, it proves Turkey is a democratic state. If there was diversity the numbers of Armenians, Jews, Greeks (which are as guilty as we are for population exchanges), and Assyrians would not be measured in the mere, low thousands.
Even though i speak for myself im sure other Armenians agree, that i am tired of the need to “wait for Turks to get come to terms”. We are not talking about some simple character flaw but of mass murder and it’s out and out denial..Your ancestors decided to kill off a whole race of people and make no mistake, the main reason for the genocide was theft of wealth and property.. It is ridiculous that 100 years has pasted, with not only no apology, but no remorse…. The Armenian Genocide actually started in the late 1800’s with some say over 300k Armenians killed by Sultan Hamid alone…WW1 just gave the cover to implement the finale Armenian solution.
Further, our own US Ambassador, Henry Morganthau, witnessed the Armenian genocide first hand and wrote volumes to our own US state department as it was happening. Try reading some of his memoirs and biography.. He was no Armenian and the US was not at war with Turkey.. Even Talaat’s own memoirs were recently published in which he apparently kept accurate Armenian death totals as they were happening. The evidence is over whelming and undeniable. sorry no Armenian here needs to wait or worry about the comfort level of of the current Turks today. I can care less..
Last the only reason the issue is still being pushed today, with the current French vote and 20 or so country’s acknowledging the genocide and historians still writing volumes about it, is because of the diaspora itself which ironically was was created by the genocide itself..This will not end. The sign of acceptance needs maturity.. Maybe Turks are not yet mature?
Emre,
You are free to state your views, but I think you are merely a denialist with better manners than most.
On 9/19/10, you posted this remark on a denialist website run by someone named Jonathan Wilson:
I’d like to thank both parties that helped me to understand the issue better.
I have one simple question.
I have 2 questions:
“1-) If Turks killed 1.5 million Armenians, where are the mass
cemeteries? No one survived from those killings when it happened?
2-) On Eastern Turkey, as far as I know, population is more Kurdish than Turkish. But Armenians blame Turks not Kurds?
Kurds still struggle with western moral values. Honey Killings etc is still a part of daily Kurdish Culture.Crime rate is very high among Kurds.”
These are essentially the same questions you posed here:
“Can someone refer me some articles about
-Kurdish and German Role in 1915 (eastern region was all Kurdish in 1915.Ottoman Army was in German Control)
– mass killing cemeteries/areas found in Turkey/Syria
-request from Turkey due to Genocide Recognition (Reparations does not sound reasonable but Turkey should honer Armenian properties left behind since they honer Ottoman Titles even in 2010s per what I read)”
If you are actually interested in the answers to your questions, why did you not start reading and asking after you formulated them in 2010?
Please answer my question:
Why do you not speak out publically against Ergun Kirlikovali, who accuses the Armenians of 1915 and today of being a race of criminals and murderers?
Your claim that Armenians were collaborators in the East with Russians, even if true, hardly justifies the intentional killing by state actors of unarmed civilians. Moreover, Armenians were killed by state actors throughout Anatolia and European Turkey, not just in the east.
The patterns of the killings were the same everywhere: men were taken to jail or over the hill from village centers and clubbed or shot, women, elderly and children were death marched, enslaved, raped, starved, and killed. The uniform pattern of killings over all of Asia Minor and Thrace by state actors persuaded Professor Quataert, a renowned expert on Ottoman culture and history, that they came from a common plan. If you know better, please let us know your facts.
Selim Deringil, a Turkish historian, wrote more than 10 years ago that the Armenians were subjected to “colossal crimes” at the hands of the Ottoman state, and that the claim of mutual combat is a “travesty of history which no historian with a conscience can accept”. Guenter Lewy, who is anti-Armenian, and much beloved by the fascists in your country, actually agrees with Deringil, pointing out that unarmed women and children were no threat to anyone. It might be of interest to you to know that even Lewy does not say there was no Genocide – he says the evidence is not conclusive enough for him yet to make that determination.
You should also find out why some Armenians rebelled when they did. For centuries Armenians and Greeks and Assyrians suffered as Christian subjects. In the nineteenth century, when the Greeks in Greece rebelled, and in the early 20th, when the Christians of the Balkans rebelled, the Armenians stayed loyal, earning the name “loyal millet.” But they had suffered unimaginable crimes whch no people should suffer. In the 1890’s Abdul Hamit ordered that 300,000 Armenians be massacred, in 1909, in Adana, another 30,000, and at all times Armenians were subjected to crimes at the whim of local Government officials.
Yes, some armed themselves to protect their families; yes, some hoped for Russian help. Wouldn’t you? If a European nation murdered and plundered its Jewish or Muslim citizens with impunity, wouldn’t they arm themselves?
You can’t blame the Armenians for rising in the few places they did. I regret only that more did not have weapons to protect their children and women from being raped, enslaved and murdered by Turks.
Emre,
As an Armenian from Armenia I am against opening the border. All the border talk started from the US pressure. The border has been closed from 1993 but we did not care. We were having double digit GDP growth till 2009. Even Kocharyan said that we can develop without having relations with Turkey in one of the Karabakh talk in front of the whole world. We do not need Turkish investments in Armenia. I mean we need it economically but we cannot afford islamization of Armenia. We do not need Turks in Armenia. Look at Georgia. After 30-50 years Azeris and Turks will request autonomy in Georgia. I am a firm believer that nothing good can come from Turkey. Turkish government view Armenia as an enemy. They closed the boarder from 1993 (even though I think that they are doing a favor to Armenia with that). They had put huge taxes on imports from Armenia but Turkish goods are exported to Armenia with low taxes. What does that mean? To me it means that Turkish government wants to make Armenia collapse economically.
And please do not tell me that Turkish government is not thinking about Turan. They are thinking about wiping up Armenia and joining their Turkic nations day and night. The only way that Armenians and Turks can have good relation is if there is Kurdistan (which will serve as a buffer zone) between Armenia and Turkey. Other than that Armenians cannot live with Turks. History has proven it too many times. As to Azeris they claim both at official and unofficial level that they and Turks are one nation living in two different countries.
Armenia needs investments from Diaspora, Russia, Iran, China and Europe not from Turkey.
Sella jan… you said it right.. I am on the same page as you.. nothing good will come out of Turkey if she starts pumping her own filth and poison into Armenia.. that is for sure.. Armenia needs strong govt and strong Diaspora…
Little Robert,
You need to keep up with your posts and the responses thereto. You keep saying Armenians won’t debate Turks. Because the historical truth of the Genocide is undebatable in the same way gravity, calculus, and the Jewish Genocide are not debatable, there is no need to dignify your demand.
But I would like to raise some money for Armenian causes, and I would like to do so with your money, , so I repeat myself here. I will debate you.
Just last week in these pages I challenged you to an actual real debate to be judged by a mutually acceptable retired justice of the Cal Court of Appeal [ or from any other state if that suits you] on the issue of whether Armenians of the OE were subjected to Genocide, with a minimum purse of 50k, loser pays the justice’s costs, figure 5k more, and my travel costs if outside California.
I made the same offer to your racist leader, the porcine slob Ergun Kirlikovali three years ago.
He didn’t accept or respond, just like you. Like pig, like teensy weensy piglet.
I remember also all your threats of loosing your numberless “‘special op.” pals on me on the risible Kemalist rag, Turkish Forum, whose chief poster seems to be a guy with a brain tumor bigger than Cleveland. I think the motto is: Tyrants at home, oppression abroad, or something like that.
I’m still waiting for the tiny Turkish navy dudes to wake up, climb out of the GI Joe boxes, and show up with you, all dressed up in your teensy weensy togs.
JDA jan.. well said… bravo…
Robert, you wrote:
Your people always have a apoplectic attack if any reference is made to a book written by any Turkish author, yet you just gave an example of a “reference book by Peter Balakian [Black Dog of Faith]“. So your message is that ALL books and references by Armenian authors must be gospel, whereas anything written by Turks and/or Turkic authors is a lie. Debate us and we’ll show you just how accurate (and “truthful”) your cherished Armenian authors, like Balakian, or your IAGS, truly are!
Well, this is idiotic. First of all Balakian’s book won the PEN/Martha Albrand prize, and is internationally recognized as authoritative. It contains also memoir and experience as well as witness reports, as Emre requested. It also mentions reports of German army officers. Secondly, the International Association of Genocide Scholars is just what that title says: THE International Association of all Scholars of Genocide — the Academic organization for this field of Genocide Studies around the world. It’s not Armenian, it’s not Turkish. It is the whole body of Genocide Scholarship that has any reputable publication at all. Finally, your racism is evident: none of these things are “mine” nor are they only “Armenian.” That’s why I cited them. As for “my people” – my people are any people who love truth and not lies. If a book is full of lies, I don’t want anything to do with it. If it tells the truth and is reputable — especially with scholars and experts in the field — I feel good in citing it.
Just like justice is about truth. It’s not about countries, peoples, prejudice.
Robert —
PS Peter Balakian also works with Turkish authors and a Turkish publisher. This is not about “us” or “them” except only in YOUR mind
Jerry jan.. Robert the Turk has a problem… obssession problem of US vs THEM… Dashnaks.. and me plus debate.. yes you may not be familiar with him but we are…
Dear Compatriots(Armenians only or even half Armenians)
Please be informed that it is time you me ,all started to give it straight to Turks or pro turks…
Armenians like the slaves in N.America or S.America, like the native Indians and a few others did claim and got what they suffered for.
Also the Jewry got and is still getting compensation Blood money from Germany,heir of Nazi Germany.
Any nation has the GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO RISE,REBEL and FIGHT FOR FREEDOM.
Freedom is not Free,it is gained.wE FOUGHT FOR IT …
EMRE LIKE PEOPLE WISH TO convey that Armenians should have continued being ¨rayas¨¨ Eermeni Rayas what is more and when a Turk (even today yes even today pfronounces the word Eermeni, it is with Contempt!!!!!
Because of Fascist leaders like Kemal and his followers.Whereas we have tried to be of help both in Ottoman Turkey and even later.
i shall suffice to say that NO MORE We want to be Free of any yolk and Yataghan and regain what is millenia old,i.e. what lawfully belongs to us.
Best to Hasgcoghin.
G.p:
Emre
you write:
Can someone refer me some articles about
-Kurdish and German Role in 1915 (eastern region was all Kurdish in 1915.Ottoman Army was in German Control)
– mass killing cemeteries/areas found in Turkey/Syria
-request from Turkey due to Genocide Recognition (Reparations does not sound reasonable but Turkey should honour Armenian properties left behind since they honer Ottoman Titles even in 2010s per what I read)
About Kurdish role you might look at
Kaiser, Hilmar (2003): “A Scene from the Inferno”. The Armenians of Erzurum and the Genocide, in Kieser and Schaller: The Armenian Genocide and the Shoah. Chronos
Kaiser claims that Kurdish tribes acted in collaboration with the CUP, but the documentation is not very thorough and cinvincing to my mind.
In the same book (Kieser ans Schaller eds) Donald Bloxham writes about the question of German complicity in the deportation of Armenians. Bloxham holds that the Germans were not accomplices.
The main thrust of research (see the Turkish history by Zurcher that has been rerpinted many times and is widely used in teaching courses) does not claim an Armenian mortality of 1.5 million, but 6-800.000.
I have read little support of the claim that Armenian mortality mainly was a result of massacre. To bolster this claim some early contributors, like Yves Ternant, claimed enormous killing sited, for onstance that 500.000 Armenians were killed in the Diyarbakir area, but these claims are not repeated in recent literature, for instance
Kévorkian, Raymond (2006): Le Génocide des Arméniens. Odile Jacob
and in
Üngör Uğur Ü.(2005): “A Reign of Terror. CUP rule in Diyarbekir, 1913-1918”. University of Amsterdam. Department of History. May 2005.
Üngör, Uğur Ü.(2011): «Turkey for the Turks»: Demographic Engineering in Eastern Anatolia 1914-1945, in Suny, Ronald Grigor, Fatma Müğe Göçek and Norman M. Naimark : A question of Genocide. Armenians and Turks at the End of the Ottoman Empire. Oxford university press 2011.
In 2007, a mass grave was discovered in South East Turkey, and it led to a dioscussion. Turkish authorities claimed that it was very old, professor Gaunt of Sweden claimed that the victims were Assyrian and Armenian males massacred in july 1915. Here are some links:
1)”Turkish Historian denies Armenian mass grave claim”, BBC News http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/39246.html, 2) ”Will “shuttle diplomacy” help dig up the truth in Asia Minor?”, interview with David Gaunt by Talin Sucian, Armenia News, May 4, 2007,3) “Found by villagers, covered up by the military”, Harry Hagopian, ACCC, Armenian Community of the UK (http://www.accc.org.uk/News/Mass%20Grave%20Discovered/body_mass%20grave%20discovered.htm ), 4) “Mass grave outside Mardin to be opened by international delegation”, den tyrkiske avisa Hürriyet 2. Feb, 2007, 5) “Truth of mass grave eludes Swedish professor”. Turkish Daily News, April 27, 2007, 6) “Mass Grave Investigation in Mardin Province”. http://www.salzburgseminar.org/ihjr/blog/index.cfm/2007/4/27/Mass-Grave-Investigation-in-Mardin-Province–PRESS-RELEASE
Sella:
you wrote “As an Armenian from Armenia I am against opening the border.”
Thank you very much: we need more RoA residents/ citizens like you to visit Diaspora websites and let everyone know. And you are right, opening the border is an American Neocon project to spin Armenia out of Russia’s orbit: same as they did to Georgia (how well did that work for Georgians).
Diaspora Armenians: read Sella’s post again and again. She is not alone either. Patriotic RoA thinkers and strategists are almost uniformly against both the protocols and opening the border: they know for whose benefit it is. And it surely is not for Armenia’s.
RoA has developed alternative trade routes.
Opening the border with Turkey will be a disaster for RoA.
It will devastate local industries and enterprises.
Turks will infiltrate all aspects of industry, commerce, information channels,etc
Armenia will be swallowed without firing a shot.
Some day, when Armenia is very strong politically, economically, militarily, and otherwise – trade routes can be opened. But nothing strategic.
Turk can choke off any strategic routes anytime they want.
Again, thank you Sella. Visit us more often. Tell your RoA friends.
Avery, Gayane, Gaytzag and Seervart, thank you for staying Armenian and for living with Armenia. Armenia and Artsakh need Diaspora’s help more than ever. By help I do not necessarily mean monetary help. The best help will be repatriation and opening new businesses of course. As to Armenians in Armenia, most of them have no clue about national security, borders or even why Artsakh is so vital for Armenia’s security. All they want is better living standards. And many wrongly think that by opening boarder things can get better. That is very unfortunate that people do not understand what is good or bad for them. Still there are many Armenians (mainly educated people) who are against opening the border. I do not know if you are aware of the fact that a group of Turkish businessmen already started visiting Armenia. They are intruding Armenia with closed borders what will happen when the borders will be open? Armenia will become second Georgia. I am all for freedom of speech and justice but for now I think that Armenia needs Kocharyan’s iron fist again like Russia needs Putin’s iron fist. It is too bad that traitor LTP did manage to destabilize Armenia again and March 1st events happened otherwise Kocharyan’s come back would have been ideal.The only good thing about LTP is his age (67) in a sense that he will not be active or around too long.
I’m a former citizen of the Republic and I think agreeing to sign the protocols with Turkey in their current form and in Armenia’s current shape, was demonstration of sheer idiocy on the part of our government. Has anyone calculated the damage—economic, demographic, ideological, defense- and national security-related, that open borders with an enemy-state would cause Armenia? Or the government was thinking about the profits that it’d get from companies doing business with the Turks? Such a shame! For this alone Serj and his clique must be ousted from the office.
Bravo to SELLA AND AVERY!!!!
Saludos!!!!
Keep it up,try to make the rest of us understandwho so far have not0 that Border opening is tantamount to signing our Death Warrant!!!
To hell with the Protocols(listen to Those who want to ahve that annuled RIGHT THIS MINUTE!!!!!)
Stop bullying Armeia whoever is behind pushing the protocols and border opening..
One more thing.Armenia is already being empties of its inhabitents.We must START R E A T R I A T I O N nO.Do read my “”suggestions”” I BEG OF YOU IN http://www.armeniannews.info
Thanks,AND GETSSE AYASTAN AND ITS ARMY!!!
On to getting reorganized in Diaspra..Am to write a MOS IMPORTATN ARTICLE YET ON ABOVE STE..
best to my dear compatriots like above two ..
Errata!!
Abve ost hastily written please forgive my bad spelling.I MEANT
REPATRIATION N O W not no. and Hayastan ,not ayastan…THESE ARE TYPOGRAPHICAL -DUE TO FAST TYPING
right now comes to mind before I forget Avery…please expand on the following+-
WE DO NOT MIND ,ON THE CNTRARY WE COMMEND GOOD EXCELLENT RELATIONS WITH THE ANGLO AMERICANS ..ESPECIALLY THE GOOD OLD USA THAT IN TIME OF NEED HAS HELPED ARMENIA FROM STARVATION!!!
b u t direct USA-Armenia relations N O T
WHAT SOME DEEP STATE PEOPLE HAD CONCOCTED UP ,NAMELY THE
P R O T O C O L S !!!!!!
ALSO WITH ANY OTHER COUNTRY(INCLUDING NEIGHBOURS IF THEY KNEEL DOWN AT TZITZERNAKAPERT B E G P A R D O N
AND BEGIN COMPENSATIONS/RESTITUTIONS….
THIS WE SHALL NOT GIVE UP !!!
WE NEED TO BE COMPENSATED AB O V E ALLL(LET OUR PRESENT DIASPORA AND RA LEADRS KNOW THIS) f o r
b l o o d m o n e y .AS TO OTHER PROPERTIES CONFISCATED ,LAND ETC., THAT WILL FOLLOW IMMEDIATLEY AFTER B L O O D M O N E Y STARTS COMING INTO BOTH A G B U AND ARMENIA !!! HALF AND HALF.
THIS IS MY THEORY. AND IF GREAT TURKEY WILL RESPOND SAYING NO MONIES IN OUR COFFERSotherwise we would pay….(we are not German) then those Beautfull Oil compnies ought to be reminded that when they BY PASSED ARMENIA , i.e., the Oil Pipe Line …(the shortest route) one does not understand why????
\Then half of the TRANSIT DUTIES OR MORE EVEN,SHOULD BE SET ASIDE AND PAID TO ABOVE TWO ARMENIAN ETITIES THE REPUBLIC OF ARMEIA TREASURY AND AG B U IN DIASPORA…
We are not simpletons ,We knw who is responsible for bad acts!!!!
Otherwise we love all other nations and people,AS MUCH AS THEY LOVE US NO MORE NO LESS…ENOUGH TOO MUCH LOVE TO OTERS AND RESPECT RECIPROCALLY.We are a State people now !!! not pueblo/people!
I just wrote a short piece re last night Al Jazeera interview with Turkish EU relations chief director,.she, a Chines African(half cast beautifull girl/lady) kew how to handle the cunning Turk.Only short sentences asked like for example , when the started-after og talk re Arab spring countreis revolts etc., – touching the most delicate for the Turk, the Armenian Genocide. e evading of cours e with same old Turkish deight massals*proverbs sort of0 that well some 650,000 Armenians were killed, but also 2 million turks..etc., She said 1.5 million?
and many such other facts that she knew well and he also indeed but always trying to push it to oblivion in his wily way…
Nonetheless she was adamant and insisted that issue, that of the Armenians…
MOST IMPORTANT NOW FOLLOWS.
AVERY GET HOLD OF THAT NEWS PAPAER +++++++++++++++
NOTHING TO DO WITH ABOVE
Jewish jurnal of South Florida!!!!
I shall refer to this later..
best
Dears JDA, Thank you for our justified and informative posts, which obviously I agree with in it’s entirety.
Dear JDA, I don’t know if you were around a few months ago when I posted in one of the columns of AW, but my grandfather Minas wrote a book in Armenian “Izmiri Angume Yev Ayl Etcher”. You see he actually served in the Turkish army as a high ranking officer when he was sent to the Arabian countries to fight onTurkey’s side. He was serving then when he heard about the Armenian Genocide of 1915 and he had to learn it later that his entire family from Dickranagerd were all murdered in cold blood along with his beloved Armenian nation. How good of you to say the ultimate truth that from early 1900 hundred and much before that too Armenians were constantly being attacked, highly taxed, the little boys taken and stolen as hostages, the pretty Armenian girls stolen and raped or killed afterwards and sometimes taken for the Turks’ harems. Why else would our beloved writers such as Khatchatour Abovian who wrote “Verk Hayastani”, and our beloved Raffi, Hagop Melik Hakopian wrote the “Gaydzer”, “Khente” and “Tchalallettin”. They wrote them so that Armenians would finally rise and protect their homes and their families from such abductions, mass killings and the rapes of their daughters and wives. Then the ARF Tashnagtsoutyun came about being inspired by such writings to protect the poor Armenian civilians from constant atrocities, killingsand living in fear every day of their lives. But unfortunately when the Hamidian masscres came about in 1895-96 Armenians were not ready to arm and protect themselves and their families because the party was brand new then. The same happened in 1915, the ARF and Tashnagtsoutyun did not have the means or the time to arm all the towns and the cities that Armenians were living all across the entire mid to eastern Turkey that was colonized then for a mere 700 years, as today’s Turkey was the Armenian Highlands from time immemorial. Thus the ARF Tashnagtsoutyun in 1915 was only able to protect most of the Armenian civilians in the Van region, and thank God that the Russian army finally came and took them in and protected them from further annihilations by the premeditated bloody hands of the Ittihadist CUP Turkish government of 1915. Thus out of 3 Million Armenians living in Turkey in 1915, only 700-800 thousand of them miracuously were able to escape and survive. And yet some were forced to be islamized to save their skin. All of the Diaspora Armenians are the sons and the daughters of the ones who miraculously surved the Armenian Genocide, that’s why we are here today scattered all around the entire world. My own father was one of them when in Palu, after the Turkish gendarmes murdered 14 members of his immediate family, his Kurdish family servants kept him for 3 years, then by brave Armenian women he was taken away to the orphanages. He was a child at the time.
To Emre, or to anyone who wishes to minimize or make the Armenian Genocide a trivial matter, I would recommend them to read the history books about it but not written in Turkey, because you will not get the real picture or the truth about the Armenian Genocide. You have to want to know the true history and what transpired during the AG from books that are written by unbiased historians who wrote the ultimate truth about it. The books are out there and I can only name a couple of the writers at this time, Vahakn Dadrian and Peter Balakian. But there are so many more too, that is if you Turkish people are truly interested in knowing what transpired during the Armenian Genocide.
Dear Sella, I thank you for your good post. I was in Armenia last year and I agree with all of your statements. Although I wrote in an earlier post a while ago that Turkey owes Armenia millions of dollars for illegally closing their boarders, but they can keep their millions and the opening of their boarders. If they do open their boarders, it will be a disaster. The same applies with Azerbaijan. I cannot imagine how disasterous it will be for our people in Karapakh if the boarders were open. Both Turkey and Azerbaijan wish to do away with Armenia and Artsakh if given any chance at all. They will come and do away with Armenia from within if they cannot declare war against us. Yes, Armenia can survive with investments from Diaspora, Russia, Iran, China and Europe. Not from Turkey.
Thanks Servart for your real story on genocide…
I am sure Turkish writers on this site they know more stories than us…
They can tell you more…how their nation behaved
They are hear to behave that they had the right to slay
Who killed all 1.5 million people…?
I am sure their grandfathers did …
And they spoke at home about it showing their braveness
Nothing can stay under the sun rays…
As we have endless painful stories
They have the opposite stories
They call them selves ” We were able to kill”
A turkish ambassador said to a well known…well behaved Armenian man
In front of others…
“Go and get what we took from you”…to say if you are brave do it.
to say…”That they were proud… they were able to kill”
So if an ambassador who represents his country
will tell this… what do you expect from ordinary person to tell you…!?!?
SP
Dear Sylva, You are welcomed, and I thank you for posting and letting us know how the Turkish ambassador behaved shamefully towards that Armenian man, because nothing has changed within the Turkish government in regards to their Ottoman mentality till today. Perhaps some of the people in Turkey and the educated elite has changed with their behaviours, accepting and knowing well about the Armenian Genocide, but not the government of Turkey.
Sylva jan, my own story is very much a similar story of every Armenian alive. Why else all Armenians from various parties agree to the cause of the Armenian Genocide, as we all have been waiting patiently and justly for 97 years, so that Turkey would come to her senses, accept the veracity of the Armenian Genocide and pay us back our long lost lands and properties as blood money from the AG.
To correct the typo above to my post to JDA, I wished to thank him for his justified post above. The second correction would be; all of the Diaspora Armenians are the sons and the daughters of the ones who miraculously survived the Armenian Genocide.
Dear/Sireli Seervart,What you have narrated above re your father IS SO MUCH similar to what transpires in Novel called ¨ m a m i g o n ¨By Jack Hashian, (deceased noe) an Armenian American ,that served in the US State Dept. His hero,Mamigon also served in turkish army and fought at Galipoli valiently against Aussies,his old Army day turkish officer X at that time invading Mamigon´s village pillaging and raping Mamigon´s wife and slaughtering the whole family.he then when returns to his village finds out that his trusted buddy Turkish offices has done that and the fight to end to boston where he follows him..etc.,
Seervart , et al from now on we must give it straight to Tiurks or pro turks here and elsewhere.
In far Western Europe, another country was invaded by N.African Khaliphates, and ruled over for 600 yrs. then a spanish princes secretly prepared the princlings(pretty much like our centur old princes) got well armed and drove them out OUT !!!!! INVADORS OUT!!!!SO aRMENIANS DID WHATEVER THEY COULD after beign near totally exterminated by those Beasts(On the Moon?) we did not make it then ,because we lacked ARMS!!!!!and we were not well organized and then again after 1918 when WE DID FIGHT THREW BACK AT sARDARAPAT AND COUPLE OTHERS THE tURKISH ARMIES, WE SOMEHOW GAINED SHORT LIVED iNDEPENDENCE,becasue Lenin and Stalin though they could get Kemal on their side and gave PLENTY GOLD YES GOLD TO HIM thinking he would join the Bolshevik revolution,incognizant of the fact that Turks only know EASY GOTTEN RICHES AND NO SUCH THING AS SOCIALISM OR DEMOCRACY ETC.,
Anyhow why I tell all aboe, it is to remind us all(I know most know it) even Turks here.Except the spanish MODEL.Few know about that….
which means ENOUGH TRYING TO JUSTIFY TO TURKS OR PRO TURKS THAT WEDID NOT FIGHT …
YES WE FOUGHT FEROCIOUSLY READ ´m a m i g o n¨¨ jack HASHIAN WRITES IN HIS BOOK THAT HIS NARRATION NOVEL IS FROM ACTUAL HAPS…
SO tURKS MUST KNOW THAT NOW THAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ALSO win war at nk Nagornyi Karabagh and get an Army well organized we do not admit R E T R E A T !!!!
WE also know and they do too,that in the 70´s ,i.e. 1970´s to 1980´s our ¨¨crazy¨¨ boys targeted ONLY THEIR DIPLOMATS THAT IS REP.S OF THE DENIALIST Govt. never a civilian or other.And then they knew when to STOP!! oncve the whole DEAF World got wind of what armenians demanded from UN and other such and never got any attn from them.Then they joined forces with the JOGADS in NK and fought the Azeri(little brother of great Turkey) and taught them a lesson.You see, latter and big brother are always or were alwasy thinking that if the can corner unarmed Armenians they can do what they canm with them nOT THIS TIME OVER !!!!
wE ARE DETERMIND TO DRIVE HOME OUR DEMAND FOR JUSTICE and will do it di’plomatically this ,however well backed up and armed also….JUST IN CASE AZERBABOONS(LIKE AN aRMENIAN WOMAN HERE CALLED THEM) TRIES ANOTHER sUMGAIT ,bAKI…
tHIS IS NOT AN ADVERTENCIA!!! nOTICE TO tURKS BUT , RATHER TO REMIND THEM WHAT THEY ARE THINKING OF AND WHAT WE ARE READY TO DO AND SACRIFICE FOR OUR F R E E D O M FROm them.
Easy now easy…others are picking up our CASE(no more Cause by the by)like Attorney General Nicola Sarkozy, who will teach them that LA FRANCE is a powerfull ,just and freedom loving country .Witness their FIGHT AGAINST NAZIS WITH THEIR RESISTANCE FORCES IN WHICH ARMENIANS ALSO FOUGHT ALONGSIDE (mANOUSHIAN mISSAK AND CO.)
wE HAVE IN FACT ALWAYS SIDED WITH THE gOOD guys, as i once mentioned in philadelphia 1988 at a huge conf. WHERE MANY NON ARMENIANS DIPLOMATS WERE PARTICIPATING AND PROF RICHARD G HOVAHNISSIAN DELIVERING DISCOURSE AND i PROTESTED WHEN a LOCAL OR A FOREIGN DIPLOMAT SAID gORBACHOV WAS TEACHING ARMENIANS A LESSON…AT TIME OF THE SUMGAIT POGROMS-.
i SAID you are completely wrong!!! we have always sided and fought alongside the Good guys , in 1918 , in Armenian Legion alongside British General Allenby at palestine fronto then again in WWII with the ALLIES!!!!
So be it known to you that we are with the good ones always!!!!
Emre’s and jda’s discussion seem like a civilized debate, let me express my two cents on the subject.
As a Turkish citizen, I don’t recall we had learn anything about the AG in schools. That page of our history is simply skipped. These last 10 years the issue came to surface, some documentaries, books, documents are shown in the media explaining why AG cannot be considered as a genocide.
When you listen their arguments and proofs, it sounds pretty convincing. A small note, I don’t have a historian background, and AG is not subject that I’d dedicate too much of my time to do research. So these summary documentaries and books look perfect to get the claims, their proofs, other side’s claims and their anti-proofs.
I would like to have your opinion about these claims:
1) They show proofs that the armenian population at that time was around 1.2 million. In that sense it cannot be a genocide of 2 millions. And there are documents, and population counts proving this.
2) The goal of the government was to relocate the armenian population living on the east of the country. And there are no documents on an intent of destruction of an entire population. This claim is usually proved by the messages of some embassies of foreign countries in Ottoman Turkey.
3) They say that the incompetence of execution of this relocation as well as independent criminal activities resulted the high dead toll, and their responsibles are executed. The western powers at that time (I think it’s UK, France, and maybe US) declared that this is not a systematic murder of the government because the government punished the ones responsible of that.
There are also many other arguments about how the western powers and russia armed the Armenians. How the Turkish villages are pillaged, etc. But those just tries to justify a wrong with another wrong. So I discard them.
The problem is that there are facts and proofs in either sides of the story. So which ones are real. I believe many of Turks are like me, trying to understand the issue. By seeing proofs of Turkish side I just cannot understand how this is a genocide.
Finally I believe the key of any recognition in this subject is not the foreign countries or UN but it is the people of Turkey. Even if UN and all other countries recognize the AG, Turkey will not care about it. (And we all know that UN’s decision is not really an enforcing factor).
I cannot ask Armenians to educate Turks. But there are things that you can do to make the claims rock solid. For example, Tayyip Erdogan always tells that Turkey proposes a committee of historians who will have an authority to decide the issue. I didn’t know that such a committee had already been founded and came to a conclusion in 2009. So why no foreign press tells this? Why Armenian President does not tell this?
You have to understand people like me. This subject appeared only in the last decade, with Armenians accusing grandfathers with a huge crime without any willingness to debate. I can understand that it’s an absolute truth for you, but it is not for us. I think now is the best time for the debates since although the government is still close to the issue Turkish people is not.
I think shouting Murderers! and trying to demonize Turkey (or Turkish people) will serve your cause much less, than trying to eliminate Turkish claims one by one with facts and proofs in civilized debates.
KAko,
I can address some of the the arguments that you brought up.
2) The goal of the government was to relocate the Armenian population living on the East of the country. And there are no documents on an intent of destruction of an entire population. This claim is usually proved by the messages of some embassies of foreign countries in Ottoman Turkey.
Turkish archives have been extensively cleansed therefore any information coming from Turkish archives can support only Turkish interests. And I find it very shameful to declare that their archives are open and they have nothing to hide when, in fact, their archives have been cleansed.
Why it was the goal of the government to relocate Armenian population? I am sure they say because Armenians rebelled. Does anyone on this earth ever said or had a small evidence that Armenian elderly, children and women were armed and rebelled? No. If no, why deport them or even worse burn life in churches, rape or steal Armenian girls and convert to Muslim?
The goal was to get rid of Armenian population, since Armenians were wealthy, steal their property, wealth, money, gold and call that land a Turkish land. Now, if you ever get a chance to travel to Eastern Turkey ask locals what happened to Armenians? From the documentaries (non Armenian sources) they say their grandfathers did not know because when they came Armenians were already leaving. How Kurds from miles away in 1915 knew that Armenians were leaving and they came to resettle? I will let you to decide if it was organized or not.
Imagine if the government tells a Kurd or Turk of 1915 if you kill Armenian you will go to heaven or you can take all their wealth. What an armed barbaricTurk or a Kurd of 1915 will do? Again I want to leave it to your imagination.
A government that orders to deport Armenian civilians including elderly, children and women without water, food and proper closing to the deserts of Deir ez-Zor has to be super stupid not to understand that most of them will die. Again, you can think what the government was thinking or should I say hoping will happen to Armenians.
And last but not least, why on the night of April 24, 1915, the Ottoman government rounded up and imprisoned an estimated 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders? (from Wikipedia) Were they rebels? No, they were serving Ottoman empire. Because they wanted to cut the head of Armenian population and massacre poor civilians.
Now, if Turkish government claims that genocide did not happen it was a deportation. Fine, we have 7 million Armenian Diaspora give those lands and properties that you confiscated to children and grandchildren of the Armenian genocide survivors. Will you?
Kako.. as we said this before .. i will say it again.. you may be one of the more sophisticated denialist with manners but you are still a denalist… that is one..
second.. there will be no debate as we said this million times… until you produce ALL ARCHIVES IN TURKEY THAT WERE DESTROYED BY YOUR GOVT, I see no so called stupid debate that you denialists try to throw at the world and Armenians.. because you know you have something we don’t have.. THE DESTROYED ARCHIVES that says it all… so until then you can keep that option to yourself because it AIN”T GOING TO HAPPEN MISTER…
KAco
With all respect to your long letter…
It seems you never read our letters…
If you are real Turkish scholar…and it seems you know a lot…
Did you see Reafel Lemkin (1900-!959) on the You- tube and on which nation he defined the word Geno-Cide…!
There are many unwritten stories …did your grandfather publish a book
the answer is No…Neither my grandmother…
We heard from their lips and their tears…
I will tell you a story narrated by Arab scholar about your Ottoman Army…
Some of your soldiers use to escape to Arabia…and your soldiers use to follow them …Arabs having dignity and humanity…use to hide them in their tents …
The Ottoman army knowing that …they use to arrive and catch the fugitive …
whilst Arab are boiling water on the fire …they use to catch the fugitive soldier and sink his head in the hot water …with out asking him who he was…
He told me all Arabs know this …it is narrated from generation to generation …
no need to be published…and it will be narrated …till turks realize what they have done…to all the nations that they occupied
and insulted their dignity…
SP
Kako
“”I think shouting Murderers! and trying to demonize Turkey (or Turkish people) will serve your cause much less, than trying to eliminate Turkish claims one by one with facts and proofs in civilized debates””
They can not do it. If they have got no proof all they have to do is shouting. Or perhaps, RVDV can provide his invaluable evidences that he is hiding
I’m not hiding John. I’m right here. If you have something to say, say it.
Here is your Great Sarko
The accusations against the French president come ahead of elections he is polled to lose.
Mr Sarkozy, 57, received a warm response from workers when he visited the social housing construction site in Mennecy, Essonne, near Paris on Thursday.
However, yesterday it was claimed that half the crowd of “workers” who braved the cold to meet the President had been specially drafted in for the occasion and had nothing to do with the building work.
“I only recognised two or three but I didn’t know the others,” Ambroise, one bona fide bricklayer told Europe 1 radio.
“They wanted more people around Nicolas Sarkozy,” he said, adding that there were twice as many workers than usual.
Bosses on sites from other locations had ordered staff to attend. They were then told to “pretend to work in front of the press,” he said.
In theory, none of them should have been working due to the unusually cold weather, and the place was deserted shortly after Mr Sarkozy’s departure.
and your point J the Turk????
Dear Mr. Palandjian, Thank you of your informative post above. I have learned from it a number of things. Here’s what my maternal grandfather Minas wrote in his memoirs – his book – from his exile days after Mustafa Kemal Ataturk came in with his red gloves “not white gloves” as the British then claimed, and in 1922 Smyrna / Izmir was burned into ashes, 130,000 Armenian souls were atrociously murdered, then the Turkish army went after the Byzantine Greeks and annihilated them as well. After that they took my grandfather Minas in exile for 1 1/2 years and he was lucky enough to escape after that ordeal by changing his name to a Greek name. That’s how I was born to be. Anyways, his writings from his memoirs, just one paragraph; Minas is asking in-front of judges, “Mazlum Effendi, you don’t know me? Really you don’t? I am the same person, Minas Effendi, who graduated with you as officer from the Turkish Military College (Harbiyeh), and served with you during the Palestinian War. (These words of gross indignity I felt, and my outrage of being ignored from a friend must have touched a nerve in Mazlum.” Because Mazlum Effendi was being asked about Minas Effendi (my grandfather) whether he truly served in the Palestinian war on the side of Turkey as Minas was being interrogated in-front of judges. If finally Mazlum Effendi didn’t come to his senses and said that he knew Minas Effendi, Minas was going to be murdered right there and then.
Sirely Baron Palandjian, Do you know that for the past 3 months for personal reasons I didn’t write on these fine columns. However before that for a while, somehow the Turkish government officials in Washington got hold of my telephone number and every time I was writing about the Armenian Genocide and about my grandfather’s memoirs, they were calling me every now and then to alarm me to shut up and not to write here. Then for 3 months I didn’t write here as I said for personal reasons. The minute I came back, I got another signal on my phone from the Washington area. This is absolutely true Mr. Palandjian, the Turks in there want to keep my mouth shut and not write about the truths of the Armenian Genocide on these columns.
Thus I have this message to give to:
Kako and John the Turk, Why am I being called upon and signaled to shut up from most probably Turkish officials in Washington, if what I am saying in here is not the truth and it is evidenced that they are being bothered by it?
Seervart
I do not know if you are daydreaming or drunk but as far as I am concern, Turks or Turks officers do not waste their time for such a thing you claim. It doesn’t sound right I am afraid. You should find better stories
J the Turk… are not you sweet???? You are calling Seervart one person who does not know what lying is a liar?? you must be have your brain cells removed because if you think people just make up stories just because they have nothing better to do then you sure can be called brainless…
JTT,
First, never speak disrespectfully to a woman. Your mother and sisters and daughters are women. State your opinion without trying to demean any woman.
Second, the Turkish embassy spends millions against Armenians. Every April 24 Ambassador Tan welcomes Turks who dance drunk in the street laughing about rape and murder. Your government Generals spend millions more running Ergenekon websites against Armenians, while others working for the government killed Hrant Dink.
Maybe your argument is that your government is too busy killing Armenians to bother with Seervart’s post, but we know that Turkish agents for decades have attempted to steal every document which records the Genocide, including removing pages of books from the Library of Congresss, not to mention your own archives.
I completely believe it. I compeltely respect Servart, and her family. Did you see that her grandfather served in the OE ARMY, only to see that his family was slaughtered, just as was the case with Sarkis Torossian, the hero of Canakkale?
Your disease is not being a Turk. Your disease is being a racist and lazy.
Well said JDA.. especially the last line… your disease is not being a Turk.. your disease is being racist and lazy.. this is powerful..
john the turk,
First off, you and your “babet” is drunk, and secondly in anything that I do say it is always the truth or I say nothing at all. All my friends as well as people who have come to know me well, they know me to be a sincere and an honest person who wouldn’t say a lie. So anything derogatory that you have to say it to me, like a rubber it goes right back to you.
john the turk,
I am neither daydreaming nor drunk, I hope you aren’t. How do you know that they don’t? Mr. I have nothing to gain by not telling the truth.
Seervart
I am sorry I am some times too harsh due to my Turkish genetic disorder. What I was going to say is that if you receive unwanted calls or threat you should contact police but It is not clear if they are disturbing you or not.