DIYARBAKIR, Turkey (A.W.)—The city that only a few weeks ago hosted several thousand Armenians during the opening of the Surp Giragos Church is squarely confronting its past again this weekend.
From Nov. 11-13, Diyarbakir hosted a groundbreaking workshop on the social and economic history of the city and its surrounding areas from 1838 to 1938, tackling head-on the fate of the region’s vibrant Christian minorities.
The workshop, organized by the Hrant Dink Foundation and the city’s metropolitan municipality, opened on Nov. 11 with a powerful speech by Mayor Osman Baydemir. Diyarbakir, he said, was the third most economically vibrant city in the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century, but was relegated to the 66th position in the decades that followed because of the destruction of its Armenian and Assyrian population.
Baydemir said he saw the conference as yet another attempt by the city to truthfully confront its history. He then went beyond and said the municipality is currently engaged in an effort to return properties confiscated from minorities to their rightful owners, or provide equivalent land elsewhere if the particular land is currently owned by a third party.
Baydemir underscored the municipality’s efforts to reclaim some of the city’s past multi-cultural vibrancy, and noted how calls to prayer from mosques and the sound of church-bells are mixing once again in Diyarbakir today.
The effort to renovate houses of worship also constitutes an effort to renovate the conscience of people and confront the past, he said.
“This city,” he went on, “belongs to Armenians and Assyrians as much as it belongs to Kurds.”
Ankara University professor Baskin Oran delivered the keynote speech, titled “The State, the Muslims, and the Non-Muslims, 1839-1938.” The opening session also featured comments by Rakel Dink, Ali Bayramoglu, Cengiz Aktar, and others.
Speakers at the workshop included genocide scholars and Ottoman historians from Europe, North America, and Turkey. David Gaunt, Raymond Kevorkian, Vahe Tashjian, Hans Lukas Kieser, Barbara Merguerian, George Aghjayan, Seda Altug, Janet Klein, Jelle Verheij, and Ayhan Aktar were among the participants.
Live-feed blocked in Turkey
The conference was broadcast live on the website of the Hrant Dink Foundation, at www.hrantdink.org. Yet, live-feeds from the foundation’s website were blocked in Turkey—a reminder of how far behind the Turkish state is compared to Diyarbakir and the hundreds gathered there for the conference.
The video of the conference will be made available online at www.hrantdink.org.
Armenian Weekly Editor Khatchig Mouradian filed this report from Diyarbakir. Details to follow.
Dr. Khatchig Mouradian
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thanks Khatchig, enjoyed reading this
Since the Armenians and Kurds have suffered so grievously under the turkish rule;its aboutb time to take off the kid gloves and combine to put the jerk(turk) down.
J’ai été très heureuse de lire cet événement à Diyarbékir. Les participants étaient tous d’accord pour rendre à la municipalité l’atmosphère de fraternté qui y régnait au début du 20ème siècle entre tous leshabitants quelles que soient leur natinalité et leur religion.
C’est un grand pas en avant et ce serait encore mieux si d’autres villes imitaient le bel exemple de Diyarbakir ! merci pour cebeau compte-rendu !
It’s like a can of coca cola. Shake it up a little and see what happens.
This was Amida. The site of the real Tigranakert is located to the east near Silvan. I doubt that any part of the properties of my great-grandfather, the largest Armenian landowner in the vilayet, or that of my grandparents will be returned to my immediate family. Unscrupulous conservative Armenian-American attorneys and their clients,wealthy distant cousins, will gobble up anything that the Kurdish administration decides to return. The Armenian oligarchy exists not only in the Republic of Armenia but across the globe.
Excellent news reporting by the editorial staff. Improving the working knowledge of our community on the Republic of Turkey… be it reactionary elements, enlightened groups, Kurdish struggles and western Armenia…. are of great service to our effectiveness.
We are living in truly incredible times! Consider that in the 1920’s it was the collective fear of our grandparents that our heritage and cause would be lost through the ravages of assimilation. Likewise the Turkish plan was to kill as many as possible, scatter the survivors and let time destroy the rest. Take a quick inventory of the news and issues we have experienced just in the last year in the diaspora, western Armenia and the ROA that clearly display the vibrancy of our cause. This should serve to motivate us to focus our efforts for results. There should be no room for pessimism…. not with miracle that we are experiencing and the nightmare the deniers are living.
Problems? Sure! Difficult? Absolutely! but look around and you see signs of a renaissance for justice. Thank you your continued trailblazing Khatchig.
There are many conferences like this in other Turkish cities but Armenian Weekly totally ignores them if they are not organized by Kurds. So you love Kurds so much. Alright, but don’t forget that the lands you Armenians claim are occupied by Kurds. When you tell them you want Van back, I’m curious what Kurds’ reaction will be. We have bigger plans like becoming a top 10 economy, you can have fun with Kurds.
Which brings up the same question yet again…If the roles were reversed, and such a meeting were held in Armenia, how long would it be before the participants were met with”accidents” or simply disappeared? Remember that Armenia boasts a 98% purity rate! There’s a lot of things in their closets that they certainly don’t want the world to know about!
Caravans coming from the Palu, Havav, Oughnut area all ended in Diyarbakir. Anyone somehow still alive was murdered there. This is a nation build on the bones of murdered Christian martyrs. Of course Turkey blocked live coverage. It’s how they attempt to block truth, not only from their own poplulation, but from the world. They throw writers in prison for the same reason. This includes Nobel Prize winners. Stepan is correct; the deniers are living in a nightmare. Technology is making it difficult for them to continue their charade. As Turks become better educated, they become more insistant on truth. Yes, Stepan, there are sure signs of a renaissance. And it’s gathering speed. It’s unstoppable.
you are implicitly admitting that Turks have in effect lost control of Western Armenia aka Eastern Turkey, Mert.
Armenians and Kurds will figure out a mutually agreeable procedure to exchange territories.
Your Turk dream of Armenians and Kurds fighting over land is wishful thinking.
Armenians know some misguided Kurds did the dirty work for their Turk overlords during AG: Kurds admit what their ancestors have done, and have genuinely apologized. I believe most descendants of victims of AG understand and will forgive.
Armenians know exactly who organized the AG and who are the primary perpetrators (Turks): please stop insulting our intelligence. Stop your childish attempts to set Armenians against Kurds: it will never work.
Oh, on your mythical goal of becoming top 10 economy: before you jump that high, see if your super-economy can take care of the victims of the Van earthquake: thousands of families are still living in tents in freezing temperature. And tragically, a child died today: froze to death.
Given that Armenia has the population of a small town, while Turkey has more than73 million inhabitants, and given that Azerbaijan “expelled” Armenans, and in return, Armenia expelled Azerbaijanis, it is no wonder that there are not so many Kurds, Jews, in tiny underpopulated Armenia now – and economic conditions are not very attractive. But the real percentage of non Armenians is probably higher than the percentage of Armenians, Greeks and Ayssyrians in their ancerstral lands in what is now Turkey. This conference is really heartening. I would like to know whether Gengiz Aktar’s, Ali Bayramoglu’s and Baskin Oran’s speech evolved in the past year. I was told that Baskin Oran’s speech was wonderful. What was the language of the conference?
Thanks for the report, anyway. I must confess that when I was a child, I heard the word “Kurd” used as an insult addressed to males who behaved grossly and brutally. I am glad to see that a proportion of them are now much ahead of others, and have more ethics, more courage, and more respect for the other. It’s good to be rid of yet another cliché.
Would love to know more about your great-grandfather…
Regards,
Bedros
caraconsultants@yahoo.com
Turk-oglu Robert: when you can explain and justify this fact, then you can ask us to discuss ‘98% purity rate’ of RoA.
(BTW: What is that ? are Yezidis and Russians who are citizens of Armenia ‘impure’ in your opinion ?)
Explain this:
Around 1915 Ottoman Turkey had 25% Christians (Armenian, Greek, Assyrian), and 75% Muslims.
In 2011 Turkey is: Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni), other 0.2% (mostly Christians and Jews)
Is that like 99.8% ‘purity rate’ ?
Robert: Oh please. Turkey boasts a 99% Muslim “purity rate,” how about that?
Mert: Isn’t Diyarbakir in Turkey? Anyway, see here for coverage on Ankara conference: http://armenianweekly.com/2010/04/28/ankara-conference/
Mert, So Turkey will join Germany as one of the top ten economies in the world. Germany did this while recouping their honor by making amends for the atrocities of WWII. Until recently, Turkey used everything at its disposal to teach her children that the Armenians never existed or that they and that other Christian minorities were traitors. Much of Turkey’s current wealth is built upon the confiscated assets of Armenians killed or exiled. The Kurds are making amends. Will the Turkish burghers ever offer to return the historic mansions in Pera (Beyoglu) and elsewhere, art works, as well as, small farms, to their rightful owners?
Mert,
Your mentality is back to 1900 of Ottoman Empire.. CUP leaders released Turkish criminals, murderers, from jail houses… they became instant honorary Turkish gendarmes, Jihadists, Islamic Muftis, rapists, holy warriors, for their “mountain Turks” population, where together they successfully completed Christian Genocide of Turkey!! I wonder how much Mufti Amin Al Husseini. taught and shares his Genocidal experiences with Hitler and his faithful SS soldiers!!
Awesome news, and report.
My sincere congratulions.
My take on what´s going on in great Turkey is as follows:-
After failing on various tries to enter EU,subsequent efforts to somehow position herself as ¨guardian¨ or supervisor over Arab countries (still endeavoring )has come to be more realistic on these two options,as not workable.
Thence like she did near a century ago pulling out(not to say being kicked out ) of the Balkans,she is fast at work now, contemplating and by and by altering her attitude towards solving the k u r d i s h issue(which is combined with the Armenian one) employing the old Yavash Yavash (by and by) procdess of softening up her so far relentless stance with the kurds. Fully aware that next to attend to kis the Armenian Genocide Recognition and restitutions attached thereof.
Hence, she has devised this new policy of again going through Kurds ¨intermediary¨ shall we say, in order to first making it known to latter that both of these are to be solved somehow and best way is not by sword and firre.
I believe Armenians should be more than cautious,especially with the k u r d s,since land that used to bed Armenian is presently MOSTLY occupied by latter, rather than Turks. Very cunningly conjured up plan to go through this process of appeasing both kurds and Armenians,while also -as in the past-hoping that these two very old -millenia old- two enighbours may end up in hostile relations when actual devkision of land(read property,real Estate, whatever) ensues. Nothing of the sort will happen though as real protagonists ,as has been already shown with the Diaarbakir case,shall we say, kurds having suffered long enough from harsh Turkish rule and repented what they did to neighbour Armenians,instead of aligning themselves with them against invador Mongol Seljuk Truks, now are quite well disposed towards Armenians.
I would think best time to act now for especially Diaspora Armenians is to strike up closer contacts with the Kurdish establishments in Europe and begin to negotiate both peace and carefully settle amicably disputes that may arise from Land issues.As well as compensation to us Armenians, in order that our Nation/State,. plus our (as yet not with head,but hopefully soon) Diaspora will be their good ally and supporter.
Time to act is now for the Diaspora. I have exhausted myself trying to get a few of you online to agree that we need MOBILIZATION and a National Investment Trust Fund ASAP-
Avery
you are implicitly admitting that Turks have in effect lost control of Western Armenia aka Eastern Turkey, Mert.
Armenians and Kurds will figure out a mutually agreeable procedure to exchange territories.
Your Turk dream of Armenians and Kurds fighting over land is wishful thinking.
Yes we have lost eastern Turkey so you guys can cheer and enjoy grabbing Van , Kharput.We sometimes loose we sometimes win So what? You guys want to become a natural prey of Kurd once again?
Good analysis Mr. Gaytzag Palandjian.
On ‘As well as compensation to us Armenians,’: I think compensation can be a negotiating chip with Kurds. However, as a community both in Turkey and Kurd Diaspora, I don’t believe they are that wealthy. As far as Kurds, the only thing we should practically want back are our lands. Kurds can’t just disappear into thin air, so there has to be some give and take. There are some non-negotiables, such as Mount Ararat, vast access to the Black Sea, etc. However, in practice we have to give up some of our land claims vis-a-vis Kurds to have a peaceful and mutually beneficial resolution.
‘Yes we have lost eastern Turkey..’: Glad you agree.
‘You guys want to become a natural prey of Kurd once again?’ writes John the Turk.
As mentioned numerous times before: Armenians know who organized the AG. Kurds definitely committed horrific atrocities against Armenians – but under the leadership and organization of Turks. Kurds were the foot soldiers, together with vastly more numerous Turk killers. The Turk-run State was the brains. The organizers. We Armenians know it; you Turks know it; and Kurds know it.
As to becoming ‘a natural prey’ : many Turks still believe we are the same trusting Armenians that allowed themselves to be disarmed and marched to their deaths in long columns. Keep believing it. Your Azeri-Tatar-Turk cousins thought the same thing in 1988. They thought they could simply walk over and take Artsakh-NKR from a mere 200,000 Armenian prey living there. You guys know what happened next. Here is something you may not know: Azeri-Tatar-Turks had 30,000 KIA in that war. Armenians had 5,000 KIA. Invaders were thrown clear out. Who is a natural prey now ? Who is the Lion ?
Most Turks have absolutely no idea how deeply the Armenian Genocide has permeated and altered the psyche of the descendants of the survivors.
We are capable of and psychologically willing to do things that our ancestors would never do. Most of you guys have no clue what awaits you.
Avery
What an agreement. enjoy your mutual agreement
Avery
why not ask for a compansation from turks on behalf of kurds?
Dear Avery,
I admire your above response, critique and statements-to John Turk-especially the middle and ¨penultimo¨ paragraphs. You are dead right and I wish to narrate,hope editor will allow me, what I saw some 25 yrs ago on Rue Diu Prado ,Marseille France on April 24.
The Huge parade,some ten thousand(for Marseilles, is the Euro L.A. )marching, me and brother alongside on the sidewalk..My God these Young Franco Armens were shouting phrases that I don´t recall to the Turks. by destiny our main Church (six more in Marseille) is located on Av. du prado , some 2/3oo meters from the Turkish Legation(more than consulate) there, and when they were , the crowd approaching to the Turkish legation their voices became ever more louder and their looks towards same ferocious!!! Lucky for the Truks inside that there were French Army guards upfront of legation with sub machines guns guarding the bldg.Otherwise I can swear that these young people would literally tear down the bldg brick by brick,so much full fo REVANCHE for what the Turks did to their parents ..this much for that.I´m certain same is true for Boston, L.A. Sidney Beirut etc., so Jpohn Turks know that….
As to our coming to comrpomise with the k u r d s .I wish to remind you that my Main here on this site has been DEMAND for B L O O D M O N E Y from great Turkey(perhaps you forgot) .Certainly i´m aware of the fact that the k u r d s can only be negotiated for l a n d ….in fact that is what they themselves know.However, the old Armenian Claim for the total of the 6 Vilayets,,,has has to be settled for , 4 Vilayuets or thereabouts, as they outnumber us quite a bit.
But even prior to that we must resolve the Diaspora MAIN I S S U E .
That of Re organizing it to become a Super Structure with a S u p r e m e Council.Otherwise our BBB´s Bishops ,Bosses adn Benefactors8according to ARA B.) will not be considered as a LEGITIMATE HEAD OF US. The Bioshops? theyu run along with the Benefactors8as has been seen ,almost always ) and the Bosses, according to ARA.Baliozian are our Panchoonies…(Please ,poltical parties forgive me for quoting him) but then you see ,though I respect our politco much more than ARA B. I also regard them as forming part of the TRIO BBB, since they do not command neither NUMBERS8even all 3 or 4 put together) nor do they have the MEANS…WHAT I´m driving at a HUGE ¨National Investment Trust Fund¨.
BTW, I wrote a long/detailed artiocle ,emailed to many newspapers(Armenian) incl. of Hairenik Weekly,which I´m not hopefull that will see the light of day…it concerns to TWO issues. One is A NEW CONCEPT OF ELECTORAL SYSTEM &governance, THE OTHER….REPATRIATION,latter as a must, to be supported by Nat. Invdst Trust Fund, when it is created.Otherwise we are beating around the Bush!!!!
We need HUGE F U N D to support it ,by lending monies not give, to those who wish to Repatriate,Fund in Switzerland controlled by our &/7 magnaates,their monetary experts, attorneys etc., NOT BY BBB´s-May God bless latter and they cary on their work as they have for over 160 yeasrss come to them to us from Istanbulla(constantinople) wehre the Clergy adn their supporting amiras drew up the Sahmanatrutyun.this is not compatible with a DYNAMIC DIASPORA THAT OSTENTATES PEOPLE SUCH AS YOU IN TENS OF THOUSANDS<..Those like me and them should LITERALLY B O W O U T, let New Blood New experts to take over.
I do not understand all this excitement about the opening of Doorp Giragos Church and this ” goundbreaking conference”. Indeed this is what happens when indidvidual initiatives take precedence over a national vision and plan how best to deal with Turkey in the long term.Pity!
Hamatsayn enk, Hamasdegh.
Robert Turk oghloo, don’t you think it will be clever for your government. to ask the forgevness of the Armenian people, and start to repair the damage caused untill now , instead of keep refusing to accept the truth of the AG, and fighting it or covering it up.
Can’t you at least learn somthing reasonable from Kurds?
Dear Avery,
Please tell me how to start a New Thread-a new Subject,if you know to whom to apply at the Hairenik weekly web site,as sometiems I have new items such as the one below:-
RIGHT NOW WE WERE WATCHING ARMENIAN H1 Channel of Yerevan.
The whole film/documentary plus commentaries -.The film by a Belgian journalist who went to Gandzag(Genjeh in Azeri Lingo) which town was near totally Armenian fro centuries.They ,the azeris during last war occupied it.My god, these Azerbaboons 8 as someone, a woman here once called them.Anyhow, the inscription on the A,rmenian churches showign dates etc., intentionally scrathced completely as to not show the Armenian writings ,dates etc., Beautifull town where once (during soviet era with three midle Armenian achools and few churches operating.
Thes turco -azeris must really have HATE, full of poison towards us .Then the film showed the displaced(driven out ) Armenians from Gandzag ,during 1993/4 war and some of them adults crying with nostalgi…for theyloved their town!!!
And they have the nerve to say NK Artsakh is ours…
Hell like you wrote above to the s.o.Bg B…if war breaks out we shall really give them hell.We are not disarmed this time over and there will be people like Soghamanlian(passed away just recently) a n arms dealer who ,I saw photo in Europe, in a news paper there next to Aircraft that carried weapons to NK for our freedom fighters…
We should all vow that we shall fight tooth and nails and give them hell this time over if they dare approach NK.As to our politico, I think they are on the wrong path with these baboons,they shoudl DEMAND FULL BLAST WE WANT GANDZAG BACK WE WANT NAKHIJEVAN,SHAHUMIAN…FOR IF WE keep silent on these territories towns of ojurs the azerbabbon take one step forwarsd and ask for Yerevan Khankendi in their g.D.lingo
I don´t have hate for them but they make me wish they were not on our lands and will ,if God willing go for it..!!!!
Meanwhile, even if they are reading these lines or their agetns let them know it that a man of my age is still craving for my fathers two grandparents lands homes in Erzeroum/Karin and mother´´s side the azerbaboon occupied Nakhijevan!!!
Avery, you say:
“Your Azeri-Tatar-Turk cousins thought the same thing in 1988. They thought they could simply walk over and take Artsakh-NKR from a mere 200,000 Armenian prey living there. You guys know what happened next. Here is something you may not know: Azeri-Tatar-Turks had 30,000 KIA in that war. Armenians had 5,000 KIA. Invaders were thrown clear out. Who is a natural prey now ? Who is the Lion ?”
Please don’t distort the facts. It was Armenians who started the war. This is a fact. You wanted Karabak, and to get it you had to resort to a war. Yes, you won the first round. But don’t aggrandize the victory. It was not just 200K Karabak farmers, and not only the republic of armenia, but the whole of Russia behind it. You cannot have your cake and eat it too: armenians and Russian openly admit their alliance, and yet when it comes to the victory, you want all the credit.
Now, don’t gloat too much over being a lion or even a cat. The war is not over. As you know, there is no peace treaty, just a cease-fire. And the only reason Azerbaijan is not starting the second round is, surprise, surprise, Russia. Your bosses. It is Russia to which Azerbaijan lost the first round (just like Georgia did not lose to Osetians but to the Russians). You have to be really really deluded to think that 200K people can defeat 9,000K people, unless you believe in fantasy like the movie 300. Or unless you Armenians are so unusually super-human and powerful, But history speaks against that hypothesis. You have been on the losing side of wars and battles for the last 2000 years. The lands you call your historical lands have long been taken away from you, you are a tiny nation scattered all over the globe. What kind of a pathetic lion is that? More like a cat. Yes, even a cat can once in a while (2000 years to be exact) score a scratch. But again, don’t confuse a battle with a war. Not for nothing is Azerbaijan spending 4 Billion dollars on weapons (in 1988 we spent no more than 50 million). It will be used on your brave cousins very soon. If only we could buy off the Russian silence soon! We are working very hard on that.
Gaytzag, are you ok? Your post indicates otherwise.
Karim,
Do you read and write English backwards…I read your writing backwards… as long as your horsy alioff is in charge, there will be no war…that Kurdish gendarme knows how to fool a Turk like you!! your brave Tatar-turks lost the war long time ago..for 18 years corrupted Heidar and then Ilham collected military hardware from 4 corners of the world, so far his faithful soldiers shooting at Artshaki defenders, just like Turkish hide and seek game!!Do you know why???because he knows he will lose more land, and oil field on top of that, finally losing his Sheikhdom, this is what happening in today’s Muslim world…he does not like to be killed in sewer just like Ghadafi baba!! He knows Nakhichevan will be liberated from Tatar-Turks occupation!! Actually if there was no Soviet and Russian forces, those Artsakhi slodiers would have occupied entire land of azerPyjan in 1994, unfortunately Russians stop Armenian advance, and since then playing with your alioff oily games, like US, EU, and the rest of the world…Do you know where was your horsy Alioff during Karabkh war? yes he was hiding in Nakhichevani village inside his daddy’s basement!!
Kerim says,
“It was not just 200K Karabak farmers, and not only the republic of armenia, but the whole of Russia behind it. You cannot have your cake and eat it too: armenians and Russian openly admit their alliance, and yet when it comes to the victory, you want all the credit.”
Kerim I know it feels bad when you end up losing a war; hence you come up with one hundred excuses not to lose your morale.
Kerim show some ba..s and accept your defeat, the whole Islamic world was supporting and still supporting Azerbaijan. For example: Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Chechens, not to mention a flood of Mujahedeens fought alongside of Azeri forces, and you brag about Russia helping Armenia.
Here are some excerpts you might find interesting:
THE WASHINGTON POST
April 21, 1994,
You can’t put together any real army to fight the Armenians. There is a lack of determination in the people fighting, a disarray in the ranks,” said a Western diplomat in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan. “… This country is capable of gaining and holding ground only temporarily. If the Armenians don’t retake territory immediately, it is only for political reasons, not because they cannot.”
The recruits, some reportedly as young as 16, are part of an unconventional army that over time has included Afghan mercenaries and U.S., Iranian, Russian and Turkish trainers.
COMBAT AND SURVIVAL
Volume 11, Issue 5
August 1999
. During the war, the Azerbaijanis were initially supported by Russian 4th Army troops, Turkish trainers and latterly, by Afghani Mujahadin, who referred insultingly to the fighters of Karabakh as `fedayeen’: fighters lately come down from the mountains to fight for towns and villages. But this was a slur born from fear. One mujahadin mercenary admitted at the time, `You never realize where the enemy is firing from. Literally from four sides at once. No, it’s not like Afghanistan. It’s Karabakh.
http://www.huliq.com/1/1118-book-tells-about-mercenaries-azerbaijan-fighting-against-karabakh
In pre-1991 period Turkey saw itself as a stander-by at the outset of the clashes in Karabakh, as the developments had been perceived as being a domestic issue for still alive Soviet Union. However, since the anti-Armenian pogroms of Baku (1990) and establishment of Soviet troops in Azerbaijan, the factor of Turkic-solidarity became increasingly evident, and Turkey began to supply armaments, logistics and other military support to its newly-discovered ally. The Soviet leadership was quite critical about that, and the TASS agency reported on January 24 (1990) that Turkey should “refrain from sending military equipment” to the landlocked Azerbaijani exclave of Nakhichevan. Partly by ignoring this, even before the official formation of Azeri Armed Forces, until early 1992, Turkey held two secret air flights to deliver arms supplies to its ally, which was already in the state of war – first internally in a fight against Karabakhi people, and then attacking the sovereign territories of newly independent Armenia. As a matter of cautious policy, Turkey provided the Azeris mainly with Soviet-made arms and weapons systems that the possessed in large amounts – in an effort not to show-off and anger their NATO allies. Together with this, a physical support from Turkey also played a key role on side of Azerbaijan, as since 1992 nearly 150 high-ranking Turkish Army officers, including 10 army generals (mostly retired) took part in military operations. In another instance – the neo-fascist Turkish organization of “Grey Wolves” (Bozkurtlar – in Turkish) enjoyed a legal status in Azerbaijan and encountered nearly 15.000 members, all of them involved in the army, police and paramilitary units.
During the Karabakh War the territory of still unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was also used to recruit foreign mercenaries and military instructors. With the initiative and support of a British peer, Lord Erskine of Rerrick, and Turkish businessman Mustafa Mutlu – British and Turkish mercenaries and arms were to be sent to Azerbaijan. The latter was reported to be ready to pay 150mln pounds annually, mainly in the form of oil. The British peer later confirmed that a British registered company Summit (Consortium) Ltd. arranged the deal.
Russia was not behind the independence movement in Artsakh and the Armenians only received cursory support from Russia. The Russians armed (and still arm) both sides. The Azeris in fact inherited about 4X the amount of arms that the Armenians did. Some Russians, usually mixed Armenian-Russians or troops married to locals fought on the Armenian side. Their numbers were few whereas the Azeris had support of the Russian 4th Army stationed in Gandzha. The Azeris received many thousands of Turkish, Afghan, Russian, Ukrainian, and Chechen mercenaries, not to mention, the press-ganging of thousands of Lezghins and Talish to do their dirtywork. They failed.
In a few cases of subunits Russians actually fighting alongside Armenians, they were not effective and it was too expensive to procure their assistance and the practice of paying for mercenaries ended abruptly. The majority of Armenian arms and equipment was captured from the Azeris and the use of various arms, tank, helicopters had to be learned quickly and often in battle by those without military training. The Armenians won because of superior morale, superior cause, knowledge of the battlefield/terrain, training and experience in the Soviet organization, creativity, effective non commissioned officers, maneuverability, etc.
Also, if you do a little research, you’ll soon find out the at the Ossetians held off the Georgians for almost 24 hours with as few as a thousand men and may have been able to hold out longer. Indeed, there was a crippling Russian counterattack but the Georgians forces would have been bled and continued to suffer unsustainable casualties from a protracted guerilla war. The Georgian offensive was pure amateur hour. After that whole fiasco in 2008, it made the Azeris rethink their bluster.
Additionally, Armenia and Russia are allies today and this is a good thing. The situation in Russia in 1992-1993 was much different. Various generals followed their own interests, there was no effective, unified command (research a charming man by the name Ruslan Khasbulatov for just one example). Russia still arms bot sides but having a Russian base prevents the Turks from invading.Armenia can then focus on the enemy to the east. This is a good thing. While the Azeris might be beefing up their military, they act as if the Armenians have been doing nothing. Meanwhile Armenia receives weapons for free or at a deep discount, they buy the right arms, their positions are constantly refortified, troops are trained by proven veterans etc. The scale of a new war has the potential to be even more catastrophic but by the same token, the outcome, as noted by a growing military experts, will end in the same result.
I´m fine Kerim. Back from Khan kendi RA(Armenian/Artsakh) well convinced that our brethren and sisters there, are well prepared to confront any attack come from Azerbaijan.Latter , lately is to face yet another problem that of the TALISH people, that live within its so called borders and partially in Iran.
Next, I believe the Lenkporani Iranian issue will pop up.Yet another headache for the Azeris.
Big brother has the k u r d s and ermenis on their back,while azeris above NEWLY come up issues.
Expect more and more headaches for the Turco-Azeris…
Kerim,
So let me get this straight. You are for war and death and destruction. There is indeed a cease-fire at the moment, but you want to restart this war, which will inevitable cause the deaths of young soldiers and countless civilians. You also gloat about about how Armenians are no longer living on the majority of their ancestral land (long before Turks and Azeris), because of death and destruction and conquests by Turks. Correct me if I’m wrong but you are for this. You favor how history has played out and you are in favor of more death and destruction in the future. You want to argue about right and wrong from that stand?
And Armenians started with protests, not with military action. Azerbaijan decided to settle it with war.
These initiatives and Armenian participation in officially sponsored and Turkish inspired gatherings raise a lot of concerns and worries in me. I do not bear a personal grudge against ANY Turkish citizen for understandable reasons by I am wary of official Turkey, and its institutions that pursue “national interests” as defined by their own preceptions of the world and their objectives.As of today, and for the foresseable future, I do not see any rhyme or reason why I should in any way agree ,acquiesce or participate in any Turkish inspired programs, activities for nurturing “dialogue” or understanding because we are not running along the same track. Those among us who on the basis of their contacts with intellectuals, historians, writers and well-meaning persons believe they can influence the thinking of the state purely and simply ignore the logic and working of the state. So do not jump to conlusions my friends, and hence do not think for a moment that you represent any one except yourself in such venues and gatherings. I have made my peace with the Turkish citizen because he,like me, is a victim of circumstances he cannot control; he like me wants peace for his children and like me yearns for the daily bread. I wish I can walk along with him and he can walk along with me on the same path of peace. I do not know how we can achieve that but I know for sure that it is not with the Turkish state..that imprisons people like Zarakolu!
Kerim: my compatriot Daron already answered your post adequately with specific, verifiable facts, I may later add additional counterexamples to refute this absurd statement of yours: ‘You have to be really really deluded to think that 200K people can defeat 9,000K people, unless you believe in fantasy like the movie 300’ (BTW during the war 1988-1994, Azerbaijan’s population was about 7 million, not ‘9,000K’ people: shows how little you know even about your own country)
However, before I do let me show you something you wrote:
http://armenianweekly.com/2011/11/01/sassounian-azerbaijan-wins-security-council-seat-while-armenians-remain-idle/
{Kerim November 8, 2011
Paul, Avery,
First, disclaimer. This is my last post on Armenian Weekly. As you probably already think, yes, I need to get a life. Also, I have already said everything I can say in this debate. And I thank the moderators for posting my comments. To be frank with you, most Azeri moderators would not have.} (emphasis mine)
Now you write another good size post, on Nov 16, 2011.
Now: Either you admit on record you lied and withdraw your false promise with genuine contrition, or I will keep reminding you and everyone else that reads AW how you lied –every time I happen to see you post anything at @AW.
Dear Daron, your tactic is a pretty commonplace one in terms of obfuscation. Yes, dump a ton of cherry-picked citations, and hope something sticks. But do take a step back. What you are essentially saying is that the entire world was fighting on the side of Azerbaijan, against 200K very-poorly armed Armenian farmers with no military training, with Russia not interfering at all, and yet, miraculously you triumphed! You know, when something sounds too outlandish to be true, it usually is. Take you saying that Russia was actually helping Azerbaijan. Really? Aren’t they your closest ally? This does not make any sense.
Now, the morale on the Azeri side was indeed low at the time. Why? Because we were heavily disadvantaged vis-a-vis Russia, plus the aggressor usually has the upper hand. Because they by definition are usually better prepared, especially when the other side is a bunch of villagers (in Lachin, Gubadli, and 5 other adjacent district, plus the Khojali genocide, where 30K civilians were killed) caught in the cross-hair of Armenian-Russian troops armed to the teeth.
Don’t deny the fact. We both accept that you won the first round of a FROZEN war. Isn’t that enough? Why do you have to exaggerate things by saying your victory was one against the whole world, of extraordinary nature, etc, etc. Or is there a sense of inferiority complex you are trying to overcompensate by trying to think of your folks as these superhuman beings and not historical losers (I am sure the Armenian physche is still scarred with the events of 1915, e.g,, “why wasn’t my people able to better protect itself?”)? The truth is you won the first round because you were better prepared, armed, and with a strong patron like Russia. For the second round, the former is no longer true (we are the better prepared one now). As for Russia, that is still holding true, which is the only reason why we are not starting the war. But you can be sure that Azerbaijan diplomacy is working extremely hard to change that.
“in Lachin, Gubadli, and 5 other adjacent district, plus the Khojali genocide, where 30K civilians were killed”
Really? Khojaly was a genocide and 1915 was a bunch of incidents? Can you at least not discuss “the incidents” where my family lost many people, young and old? The Armenian genocide did not come from Baku, but from Constantinople.
You offer nothing to base any hope of honest discussion and reconciliation by calling 1915 “incidents”.
Again, you appear to be calling for war, resulting in death and destruction and looking forward to it. It’s hard to talk to you because of this.
Dear Kerim,
I have no intention of exaggerating the Artsakh victory, I am simply citing the facts from non Armenian news sources. In terms of having “sense of inferiority complex”, no dear friend, we do not have inferiority complex, after all Armenians came out the winners in the war. It is more likely that you and your people are suffering from serious psychological turmoil. With all the Turkish, Saudi, Paki, Iranian and Islamic support you still lost the war. I’m sure deep down its very hard for you to face the countries that supported your war, you let them down by losing the war badly.
You should be thankful to your cousins Turks and to rest of the Islamic community (League of Arab Nations and World Islamic Congress) who are still supporting Azerbaijan out of their Islamic compassion.
As for the rest of your comment, you are regurgitating, nothing new.
Again Kerim, the Russians aided both sides during the war but the Azeris to a much larger extent. Research “Operation Ring”. Russian pilots flew your jets, they bequeathed the Azeris 4x the amount of arms in 1992. They demanded the Armenians stop their push in the early summer of 1994 forcing a ceasefire… at Azeri request. Armenian/Russian military cooperation was not formalized until 1996 and the Russians made the same offer to Azerbaijan which they rejected. Are you denying that thousands of Afghan and Pakistani mujaheddin, Turks, Chechens, Russians, Ukrainians, (even some British and American – research “Megaoil” and “Gary Best”), either trained and/or fought alongside the Azeris? The proof can be found in mere seconds.
Dear Random Armenian,
First of all, my apologies. I did not mean to diminish the gravity of the Armenian Genocide, which I believe did happen. Nor did I intend to thereby belittle your family’s tragedies. By referring to “1915 incidents,” I was simply trying to refer to the independence struggle of Armenians against Turkey. This struggle, you must admit, you lost.
Now, you say I call for death of destruction. Don’t take things out of context. Consider this analogy. My neibgor comes and takes over my house at a gone point, kills a few family members of mine, and expels me. I then spend 20 years trying through courts and negotiations to get my house back. Nothing works. So when I try to use the same means that the neighbor had used to take back what everyone (the legal system, my neighbors, the township) acknowledges as mine, then I am the one who calls for death and destruction? See, row much of a red-herring your point is? So when Armenia says today that it is for peace, it is an utter hypocrisy. Of course, the thief would want peace once he has gotten what he wanted. Also, notice that I am not talking here about the Karabak proper (let’s grant that it is a contested land). I am talking about the adjacent districts that even Armenia official recognizes as not part of Karbabak. These districts they treat as negotiation-chips (“give us independence, and we will return these districts, minus a couple or so.”). Such tactics of negotiation would be ok if all this was a board game or something. Your negotiating chips are the homes that over 1 million refugees had spent life-time building and who now leave in refugee camps. Of course, you would wish for these people to go away so that you can live in peace and harmony in their homes. Not so fast though. And please don’t resort to some one-sided interpretations of history by calling even these adjacent lands your historical lands going back 2000 years ago. That may or may not be true, but such archaic claims are no reason to kill and plunder people’s homes. And surely, if this was, say, something like a legal case, wouldn’t you want to prove it (in a court or something) first? Imagine you neighbor did that to your house saying that he believes his great-granddaddy used own the lot on which you have built your home?
Daron
I am especially suffering from psychological turmoil. Is there any treatment that you can advise ?
Many thanks
To the Kerim like ..
Firstly I know from close contact with Turk oigine persons(note I do not specify from great Turkey , Baki,or Iranian Aterpatakan,but with Turk genes) even if their backs are flattened on ground,they do not admit it ,get up and declare,that was not a fair fight,we did not loose.this is their Khasiat(means voj-manner of being,Raison Détre).Now then,so far up above the discussion debate has been about NK Artsakh war and what it is all about.
My perception as to Turco-Azeris is totally different from my dear compatriots above!!!
Unless we Armenians bang hard,i.e., by writing and advocating ,broadcasting on Radio T.V. and all media, that our Real DEMAND IS WESTERN ARMENIA, from where we were EVICTED by such a RUTHLESS FASHION THAT THE WORLD SO FAR HAS NOT SEEN!!! and what our CAUSE/CASE MUST BE PROPERLY SHOWN TO THE WORLD PUBLIC ALSO, is just that. Otherwise, One other KHASIAT,voj manner of being of the Turco-Azeris is to INTENTIONALLY FOCUS OR RATHER ESPECIALLY DO SO FOR THE WORLD PUBLIC THAT WHAT THESE e r m e n i s want is a small piece of land called nagorniy karabagh..FORGETTING THE 1918 WAR BETWEEN KEMALIST TROOPS AND ARMENIANS ON THE PRESENT FRONTIER OF SARDARAPAT, APARAN …
THIS WAY THEY ARE DIVERTING BOTH OUR(ABOVE) attn: as well as any odar,non Armenian (such as if you stop a Fin or a S.African or one in alaska, what is it the Armenians want? the answer will be Nagorni Karabagh,which is being disputed between Armenians and Azeris,THUS KEEPING THE FOCUS WORLDWIDE (DESVIADO) SPANISH , means change the route..to…from the M A I N A C T U A L B I G issue that we have with big brother great Turkey… G e n o c i d e recognition and Restitutions,firstly B L O O D M O N E Y , which has precedent in internationla instances and that is what great Turkey is afraid of.
We, the elder Ermenis know quite well that great Turkey-rectnly economically a bit better positioned with non-retiurnable aid from uncle Sam for over 50 yrs and much more is very unwilling to part with the riches thus acquired!!!!
But even if they stash their finances elsewhere, from Madrid to Miami to Geneva to S.America the U.s. we can always CLAIM FROM THEM CASH THAT THEY ARE RECEIVING FOR TRANSIT DUTY(yes!!! definitley we must take this point into consideration) FOR PASSAGE OF CONTINUOUS OIL flow through…..whose real TERRITORY..and erroneously by Passing Armenian(the shortest route).Yes ,definitely the Oil companies ought to be asked W H Y ??????
thence, once culprit is condemned officially and found G U I L T HY OF GENOCIDE TO THEIR SUBJECTS… THEY HAVE TO BE MADE TO PAY MORE THAN HALF OF THOSE TRANSIT DUTIES TO ARMENIA AND ARMENIAN DIASPORA….
kARABAKH IS A FAIT A COMPLIT ….
aRMENIANS LIVING ON ANCESTRAL LAND.
you have lied on record on the pages of ArmenianWeekly, Kerim.
Nothing you post here can be taken seriously.
Go away and play with your kindergarten pals.
To my dear friends engaged in this useless discussion and polemic with persons of Turkish or Azerbaijani origins on an issue they don’t want to see or understand. The French have a saying: ” Il n’y a plus sourd que celui qui ne veut point entendre” ( it is useless to discuss with an intellectually … deaf person).What do we gain from this endless exchange of notes and comments? Are we trying to convince them we are righ and that they are wrong, that they should educate themselves, that they should possibly consider the fact that there is a problem and that problem will not go away as long as they are people with similar frame of mind bent on negating historical facts because they either do not know or just persist in their ignorance? If I were you, I would invite Kerim, John the Turk for coffee, chit chat a bit and then wish them well and bye. If they want to meet again, well and good.If we do not succeed convincing them at least we gain a personal friend. Who knows? And who says that friendship does not change things.
Avery, let me get this straight. I have previously said I wouldn’t post on AW again, and yet I have not stuck to the plan. This I accept. What I don’t get is how you derive from this change in plans the conclusion that NOTHING I subsequently say can be taken seriously. The premise simply does not support the conclusion, my friend. But I am sure you are not being illogical on purpose. What really is going on is that hearing an opposite viewpoint is a very unpleasant activity for you (you meaning Avery, and not Armenians in general). Not so for me. Otherwise, I would not be here on AW. But I do admit I do not plan to post here for much longer (since I have already gotten a fair representation of your guys’ position). But please don’t be furious with me if I do come back once in a while.
Gayztag
Have you look in the mirror? have you missed another slap from turks? Are you daydreaming or crayzy to dare to ask for our ancestral homeland?
Your ancestral land is UYGHURLAND to the West of China(within China).
The slap you are threatening to give, give it to those poor souls in Istanbulla-once again-if you dare. But you would not dare do that after Hrant Dink murder would you¿?
Today the world Journalists Associations are Demanding from great Turkey to set your compatriot Havouglu free,sorry i can´t spell his name correctly.The man like a few others in great turkey has dared to reveal truth about your country being what it is,FASCIST.
So go grind your very oxydated axe elsewhere…wilya?
john the turk,
What a pompous *** you are! Do you really think you are the master of the universe?
another slap? And what was the first slap?
You are also really ignorant in history and geography. Let me break the news. Your ancestral homeland is in the Altai Mountains. And no, nobody is crazy to ask for it.
John The Turk,
Allah was not born yet, when Armenians and Byzantine had their Christian civilization in today’s turkey land, I wonder since when our holy lands became your ancestral land.. newly islamized Turkic tribes ancestral land is around Altai mountain 3000 Km away from Western Armenia, and I wonder a die hard Turk like you, do not know his real ancestral land, people like you at least should know basic knowledge regards their “ancestral homeland”.. your violence turkic civilization going back only for 600 years, compare with Armenians 4000 years …very sad indeed that we Armenians are dealing with bunch of uneducated and brainwashed idiots in AW…
What the **** is this other slap this turk is talking about? Is he threatening us with another genocide? We don’t want his ancestral homeland. We want ours. Two different places.
John the Turk, ignorance is bliss until reality smacks you upside the head. Someone should slap some sense into you. A friendly smack to bring you back to reality. Our ancestral homeland is the Armenian Highlands; Turks’ was originally in the Altai region of central Asia. All the places where your ancestors invaded and subjugated and turkified the indigenous people are not ancestral homelands.
There was a brief, moment in history that Armenians contemplated the possibility of living among Turks as equal citizen’s under the law but the crazed Ottomans and the CUP Young Turks couldn’t bring themselves to see us as anything but infidels and they quickly ended our fantasy with the Armenian Genocide. Don’t think we forgot the lesson learned in the years since: Turkey will deny, distort and denigrate to the nth degree in order to avoid justice.
Clarification for my comment above: The “fantasy” mentioned above is the fantasy of Armenians living as equal, free and respected citizens within a land governed by Turkey. This is not to be misunderstood as suggesting that the genocide was a fantasy.
I see every one here has made John Turk realize he is wrong.In order to make my and all others´ responses stick I am elaborating further on UYGHURLAND.
In a recent visit to China, great Turkey´s FM, Mr. Ahmet Davoutoghlu, took time to visit that area to the North West of China(must have felt nostalgia) and once there,he declared .. and I quote the exact words h e uttered ¨THIS IS FROM MY ANCESTORS CAME¨..
AN ARMENIAN SAYING GOES ,¨THE CUNNNING FOX IS TRAPPED WITH FOUR LEGS¨
kHORAMANG aGHVESE CHORS VODKOV dZUGHAG G´YINA¨.
YOU SEE THIS gentleman Davoutoghlu was so much entused that he forgot that his Govt. policy was to misinterprete and state that Turks had been in present Turkey before Armenians, Bysantines and others. The taped version of that piece can easily be obtained from the News Agencies!!!
But if this is done and displayed to the world at large,the present Fascist Govt. in great Turkey will not officially admit it.This is their ´Khasiat¨ ,voj, in Armenian , manner of being in English , raison d´etre in French.
Some readers have expressed the view in their comments that Armenians are stuck with the memories of 1915 and that they should get over it and move on… They keep telling us that Turkey has changed and that they have met people there who are different than the ones we care to visualize.
As far as I am concerned the people who think so are free to move on , as others have done so in our past . Either they don’t understand what happened or are unwilling to understand the cost that the Armenian nation paid for the murderous and villainous actions of those who were acting on behalf of the Ottoman Empire. Recently, it was published that the case of Natalie Wood ,an American actress, was re-opened 30 years after her death because there justice thought were new elements to consider in her accidental death. Just imagine the death of one person makes the headlines and her family and sister continue to seek justice. So go and tell Natalie Woods’ sister to move on… One death is too many so imagine the one and half million who perished and who have not gotten their day in court.So asking Armenians to move on and forget that one and half million Armenians suffered a horrendous death at the hands of Ottoman Turks in 1915 without getting justice, is tantamount to committing that murder again.Ignorance of facts is not permissible , and denial of facts does not make you a better person .Such people do not have the right to write off the loss because for some reason or the other they think they are above the fray or that the past does not affect them the way it has affected us.For those who sympathize with Turkey because they were born there, that is their problem.
Yes Hamasdegh,I agree with you there may be a few amongst Armenians who utter ignorantly …let´s move on or even suggesting that we should also strike up friendship again with the BEAST or its heirs.Not so with us who have learnt our lesson dearly. Indeed we can forgive ASKED TO BE FORGIVEN AND THAT OFFICIALLY BY GOVT OF great Turkey.Not a few here and there.
Since I am a very cautious person and have in the past participated (in Europe) in Armenian actrivism,I know for certain that there are Turkish Agents amongst us(not necessarily here onm this Forum but in All Armenian Community countries) and their assignment is to stirr up exactly CONTROVERCIES…setting Aarmenian against Armenian.Also advertising Istanbulla ¨¨Shker Helvasi¨¨ Taukh Geotsi¨ and their food etc.,what is more adding that we are Very similar nations ,same food same MASSALS, proverbs…This is where they conduct their propaganda ,plus of course like yesterday Prof. Richard G. Hovanissian on Armenian H! T.V. Channnel confirmed Akhtamar st. giragos type Shows in order to trap Paaremid Armenians and above all show to the World that THEY ARE CHANGING!!!! in response to Euro-Ams prompting them to do so.
W/rgd to our JUST Cause/Case,it has not yet started at International instances,such as the ICJ at the Hague or the like,but it will… we shall meanwhile try to counteract as to their above like propaganda as much as possible. These last few weeks great Turkey is rather worried what with the k u r d s giving them headache shall we say?