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‘It is only limited to properties confiscated in the past 75 years.’
Right you are ArmenianWeekly.
How convenient ‘… those that were already registered in their names in 1936.’
Whatever happened in the real world in 1915-1923 apparently didn’t happen on the Turkish calendar. Since all traces of Armenians were erased by 1936, why not start the calendar in 1936: solves a lot of problems for the Turks.
Another desperate ploy by the Turks to head-off massive pressure that they sense is building and coming from the West: now that they have abandoned Kemalism, are returning to their Islamist Ottoman roots, and the secular honeymoon with the West is drawing to a close.
1936 is taken as a departure point because it is when the wakfs (community institutions) had been asked to present a list of their properties. That list was used for confiscation starting 1974.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Keep in mind that the more which is made of this, the more of a backlash it will provide when it comes time for settling the NK situation. Rest assured that Turkey, Azerbaijan and Moslems world-wide will NOT go gently into that good night! They will pay close attention to what PM Erdogan is doing AND what the reactions from Armenians and Greeks will be, and how they will reciprocate. My advice thus, is to stop grumbling for everything on the planet, and act like adults. Otherwise, you simply give impetus for what I mentioned earlier.
How correct you are Avery. Our reaction as a community must be swift and united to this ridiculous ploy to deceive the western world that Turkey has become “tolerant”. Erdogan does nothing without a duplicitous intent. The 1936 ruling will probably do little for the Armenian community, but he will attempt to gain maximum public relations value. Our response should be focused on specific properties that are not currently under control of Armenian institutions. Real change in Turkey is difficult given the fractious nature of the society and the balancing act that Erdogan maintain to slowly move the country to the Islamic right. Return Ani, return Akhtamar and several hundred properties stolen. Stop meddling in the institutions that have been maintained. Beware of the fox.
What if you didn’t have proof of ownership? Many did not have proof of ownership, but there was chaos at the time of the massacres and who knew that papers; were important to retain, for instance, insurance papers. My grandmother handed the keys to her husband’s (who was killed BEFORE the deportations) to a Turk who was in the same business, and who agreed to take her youngest (Vahram ) and her eldest (my Mother, Parantzem) children into his home.
My Grandmother, pregnant with her fifth child, went on to be saved by Kurds on the March, because she had gold. After the birth of her baby she came back to birthplace and rented an apartment, only to die of grief and desolation. Her chldren all survived by going to Egypt, and my mother by going to Greece and her olddest sybling by going to France. My mother sent for her sisters, who were trained in Egypt, so she encouraged them to get their own SS#s but till their dying days they accused my mother of profiting by having the insurance papers of their property in Turkey.
OK Robert. I guess the mourning period is over. So is the truce. I will no longer remind you of your promise, since you withdrew it in another thread with requisite apologies.
There was a Reset on that one particular item. I will honor it.
However, your recent posts indicate no fundamental change in your attitude. Too bad.
Tying anything between Armenia and Turkey to Artsakh (aka NK) is the unmistakable ‘tell’. And your previous post “advising” us not to get involved in what goes on between Armenia, Azerbaijan and Artsakh did no go unnoticed by me: I just let it go in that thread to see if it was a one-off vent by you.
Your post above says it was not. Therefore, my self-imposed restraints are off.
Make sure you don’t slip, because I’ll be watching.
Gonna be lots of fun.
Something all Armenians have aspired to. This was a collective effort by Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians. No telling what we can accomplish when we put our heads together. The journey may be long – but we will get there.
Robert,
“… time for settling the NK situation. Rest assured that Turkey, Azerbaijan and Moslems world-wide will NOT go gently into that good night!”
The NK war was not a Muslim-Christian war! It was not a religious war.
Resurrect an Armenian church (to the world) – BUT ALLOW ARMENIAN RITES PERFORMED O N L Y ONE DAY EACH YEAR! What, if any, dealings of Turks with Armenians have been honest and above board… Turks are of the muslim Ottoman mentality – still… Turk leaderships are not to be trusted… See how the Turks are unable to commit themselves – with the other nations of the world… Seems many nations have had to contend with the inappropriate ideas of the Turkeys… Why should, of all peoples of our world, we Armenians believe what comes from these Turk leaderships… Agreements/changed… recently Protocols and the abuse of the our churches which were resurrected to become THEIR Turkish museums. (But to the world it is as if Armenians were gaining their own churches!! HOW MANY TIMES SHALL WE HAVE TRUST IN ANYTHING, IN ANY WAYS, WHICH IS “OFFERED” FROM THE TURKISH LEADERSHIPS… and then, “DENIED”!!
University of St Thomas Law School published a new study by Dadrian (Groong 8/25)
Last paragraph…
“Massive transfer of wealth from victim to perpetrator Genocide emerges here doubly functional. The physical element of victim population ends up yielding the emergence of a new source of wealth, and with it new cadres of wealthy classes in perpetrator camp. In the section of Expropriation and Confiscation of Goods and Assets, Dadrian documents and analyzes with ample source material the specifics of this lethal operation of transfer of wealth from victim to the perpetrator. Mentions Artistotle’s dicturm that: “When separated from law and justice, man is the worst of all animals.”
It’s obvious that poor Robert is clutching straws and trying to confuse the readers by involving NK/Moslem etc. For all Armenians and other minorities, the larger picture is that the ‘wheel’ has begun to turn, put your weight behind it.
Glass will always be empty not even half full for some. Facts rarely matter on thses issues as I had stated repeatedly. This was a true dark stain on the Republic, and I hope other steps follow. Let us also hope (maybe in vain) that others take some leesons too.
Ahhhhh Robert.. i was wondering when you will come back to your real senses…and whallaaaaa…..you did.. guess it is hard to break old habbits… I would like to take everyone to the memory lane and share the journey of your posts…to show the progression of how many avatars you used and the change in your style of writings…
Hopefully the AW will post the avatars and colors as well… as I want to show everyone how creative but dumb you are…..
Robert
August 20, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
Avery,
It’d sure be nice if you knew what you were talking about! Armenia lives for handouts!! Must I remind you of Armenia’s economic standing (only Madagascar is worse)? Without my tax dollars going to one of the most corrupt and religiously oppressive nations on the planet, and also without the Russian military there to protect you (LMAO), Armenia would be the typical professional beggars that they’ve been for the past century! So cry me a river and read a book for once (not the typical ARF dashnak Armenian propaganda)!
Robert
August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
I very recently just lost my brother to heart disease. I’ve come to a point in my life that hate and this constant “one up-manship” is wrong. I still believe that we need to debate if we are to settle our differences and be able to come to terms and reconcile, but ever since my personal family loss, my feelings and outlook towards life have truly changed. It doesn’t matter whether you nor anyone else believes me. Life is too damn short to continue this nonesense. I guess what I’m trying to say to you, and to the rest of you on this site, is that I’m sorry for any smartass remarks I may have made, as well as any personal insults I may have said in the past. It was wrong and not a mature approach to deal with a complex issue. Sometimes, one’s feelings just well up from deep inside and come forth before one has a total grasp of those feelings, and translated into words that may be hurtful, ugly and/or misconstrued. I think that we’re all guilty of this to varying extents. If you all can forgive me for my past and recent transgressions, I certainly, and already have, forgiven all of you for your negative contributions as well. I believe that we all can be friends. I extend my hand to you all in burying the hatchet and taking those first important steps to becoming friends once more. I don’t mean to ramble (it’s not always easy to find the words one feels), but there it is. I’d be more than happy to come back to give positive inputs if so invited. If not, then I’ll understand and bother you no more (no grudges held either). Sometimes we all have to take chances in life!
Robert
August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
To the editorial board:
I’ve said/written some cruel and neagative things about you. For this I sincerely apologize. I have no real excuse other than the frustration of having my comments censored or deleted, and thus being unable to defend myself at crucial periods. Regardless though, those reasons are no excuse for some of the horrible things that I had written to you. It was wrong of me and I’m sorry.
Robert
August 23, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
Thank you for your kind words. I know that they were sincere. May we all strive to settle and overcome our differences and once again become the brothers and sisters God intended for us to be.
Robert
August 27, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
HovsepM,
You’re wrong in your assumption about me. I’ve already written that I wish to provide positive input for all parties, so that an amicable solution can be reached and agreed to by all. I have a lot of very recent personal pain to deal with, which has given me a new insight. Although I have not given up on my beliefs of historical facts (as backed up by my grandfamilies documentations and verbal accounts of that era), I also believe that all sides suffered………… This is why a historical commission is so important (comprised of both Armenian, Turkish and neutral scholars), to review all archives and hopefully get to the truth of what truly occurred. I don’t believe that only Turks should be portrayed as being evil (when you know as well as I do that crimes were committed by all), and thus be solely expected to provide an apology (what about an apology from the Armenian side for their actions/roles?). the Turks and Armenians living outside (e.g. Europe and America) don’t have a full grasp of what they feel in Turkey and Armenia. This is a major factor that constantly creates problems. They say that they’re happy and “wish that those living outside would stop causing trouble”. This goes for both sides! I for one feel that they’re correct. We who live here in the US need not stick our noses into their lives over there. Let them settle their issues! Perhaps then the NK situation and any other problem can thus be settled, with new freindship treaties between Turkey, Armenia and Azebaijan signed, creating cooperation in many areas (economical, scientific, cultural, etc.), with mutual advancement and peace in the region.
AND YOUR LAST POST , WHICH MATCHES TO YOUR AVATAR ABOVE….ahhhhh.. guess the mourning period is over Robert…
Robert
August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Keep in mind that the more which is made of this, the more of a backlash it will provide when it comes time for settling the NK situation. Rest assured that Turkey, Azerbaijan and Moslems world-wide will NOT go gently into that good night! They will pay close attention to what PM Erdogan is doing AND what the reactions from Armenians and Greeks will be, and how they will reciprocate. My advice thus, is to stop grumbling for everything on the planet, and act like adults. Otherwise, you simply give impetus for what I mentioned earlier.
and do you remember what i said to you? let me remind you just in case you forgot to read it or simply overlooked it…
I was a bit skeptical myself to read about such a revelation in Robert The Turk…. i knew it was abit too good to be true but i gave him the benefit of the doubt.. however, if he is pulling our leg with this story, he better not come back on these pages or else he will be called out so many times with such force on these pages, that he will regret playing with people like that…
Guess you could not help yourself.. well it was your choice.. so be prepared…
Gayane
TO ALL: JUST IN CASE the avatars do not come through in my last comment, I want to ensure that each avatar used by Robert the Turk except the last two comments have different style and different colors..
Black and white
Pink and white
Red and white
Purple and white
Strawberry red and white
Gayane
WE MUST BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS. THIS COULD BE CONSTRUED AS THE FINAL PAYOFF. AND THIS COULD BE USED BY TURKEY AND HER ALLIES {USA} AS “GOOD FAITH”. NONSENSE! I GUARANTEE THAT THE PARAMETERS OF THIS DO-CALLED DECREE WILL YIELD LESS THAN 5% OF WHAT WAS CONFISCATED, STOLEN, VANDALIZED, ETC….MUCH LESS THE CEMETERIES AND DEAD BODIES. WHEN I WAS IN THE U.S. ARMY IN 1956 IN GERMANY, I APPLIED FOR A VISA TO VISIT TURKEY…AND HARPUT…TO SEE MY FATHER’S AND GRAND-FATHER’S WHATEVER.
I WAITED A FEW MONTHS AND GOT NO REPLY. I CALLED THE TURKISH EMBASSY IN FRANKFURT AND THEY INFORMED ME THAT IF I WENT TO TURKEY, I WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR 40 YEARS OF BACK TAXES ON MY GRANDFATHER’S ESTATES….AND HE
WENT ON TO LIST HIS PLANTATIONS AND PROPERTIES. OBVIOUSLY THESE WERE EXTRACTED FROM RECORDS AND ARCHIVES. ARE THESE ANY LONGER IN EXISTENCE? AND IF THEY ARE…CAN I LAY CLAIM TO THOSE PROPERTIES AND PLANTATIONS? I DOUBT IT.
First time, 9am this a.m. watched Ch 9.NJ – Pat Robertson TV show. A segment was of the islamists/muslims in our universities – wildly – spreading their beliefs, now being recognized by the FBI as their avid intrusions into our American lifestyle – seeking to overpower our American beliefs… now endangered by these ‘students’… unabashedly, addressing our USA to be replaced by their own beliefs… islam/muslim… AS IF THEIR RELIGIONS SHALL GOVERN OUR AMERICAN CITIZENS… AS IF THESE ‘STUDENTS’ SHALL DETERMINE WHAT IS TO BECOME OF OUR AMERICAN STUDENTS/AMERICAN LIFESTYLE… ISLAMISTS/MUSLIMS HAVE FLOODED OUR UNIVERSITIES…THEY HAVE FLOODED OUR NATION…
FIRST, OF ALL, THEY SHALL HAVE LED AND TAUGHT THEIR OWN PEOPLES/NATIONS RISE OUT OF THE MORASS OF THEIR OBVIOUS INHUMANITY TO HUMANS… VIA THEIR OWN OTTOMAN MENTALITY – BROUGHT TO OVERWHELM CIVILIZED NATIONS VIA THEIR HORDES FROM THE ASIAN MOUNTAINS… TODAY, OVERWHELMING, CIVILIZED NATIONS FOR THEIR GOALS- STILL.
thanks for your post, Ghevont. It explains why Armenians are followed when they go to Turkey. The Turks are looking for back taxes!! This is so funny, that I can’t stop laughing! During the death marches, the victims had to give Kurds a list of what property they owned, and how their men had earned their living. They beat old women senseless demanding to know where they had buried their goods.
gayane
you write:
AND YOUR LAST POST , WHICH MATCHES TO YOUR AVATAR ABOVE….ahhhhh.. guess the mourning period is over Robert…
honestly, Gayane, what kind of style is this? You also start with the words: Ahhhhh Robert.. i was wondering when you will come back to your real senses…and whallaaaaa…..you did.. guess it is hard to break old habbits… I would like to take everyone to the memory lane and share the journey of your posts…to show the progression of how many avatars you used and the change in your style of writings…
– Gayane, this not only is crude and cruel against a man who shares his pain having lost his brother to a heart disease in these pages. It is also – as I have said several times on these pages – an absolutely hopeless way to approach people you disagree with and whom you want to influence.
Gayane: I disagree with Robert – whom you call “Robert the Turk”, but I feel your response to him here is like you are in some kind of frenzy. And it is undeserved for a man who has shared a personal loss on these pages. I dont believe in that style of debate