On May 18, Azatutyun.am published a video interview with Turkish Armenian journalist Vercihan Ziflioglu, a reporter for Hurriyet Daily News, in which she claimed Giro Manoyan, the spokesman of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF), had during an interview said he viewed Istanbul Armenians as “Turks.”
Ziflioglu, who has worked at Hurriyet for five years, also said she does not feel pressured at the newspaper, adding that the biggest fault of the news media in both Turkey and Armenia was the tendency to approach issues with a nationalistic lens. “Inside [the Hurriyet] building, I have no identity, or religion. I have to be objective,” she told Azatutyun. She said she was at liberty to pick the topics she chose to write about, which were generally welcomed by the Hurriyet editor.
The interview generated an almost immediate response from Manoyan, who denied the allegation and in turn accused Ziflioglu and Hurriyet of censoring and altering his interview.
“Ziflioglu lies when she alleges that I said we call Istanbul Armenians Turks… I have never said or thought such a thing,” wrote Manoyan in a blog post—an explanation he also sent to Azatutyun. “On the contrary, it is she who has complained to me about Istanbul Armenians,” he said.
Manoyan cited a message he received from Ziflioglu, dated June 13, 2009, in which she lamented how as a journalist and a writer she faced resistance and difficulties from the Istanbul Armenian community, saying, “the issue is that [they don’t want] someone with a brain to appear amidst them, they always want the children of wealthy families to have a voice.”
Manoyan went on to say that Ziflioglu also lied when she claimed she felt no pressure from her newspaper—unless her interview with him was the exception. The Jan. 27, 2010 interview was altered to an “unrecognizable” point, he said.
According to Hurriyet’s editor, Ziflioglu had a dispute with another editor at the paper, and that the unaltered version of the interview would be published the following day, said Manoyan. The original version, with Manoyan’s unaltered statements, was never published by Hurriyet.
Ziflioglu eventually responded to Manoyan’s repeated requests for an explanation, reassuring him that there was no “ideological motive” behind the whole affair, no “evil thoughts,” that it was due to the “editor’s last minute mistake,” and that if she had been in the office on the day of the publication she would have “prevented the mistake” from happening. After that incident, Manoyan vowed to refuse any future interviews from Ziflioglu, he explained in his post.
“During telephone conversations, she justified her actions. She is not guilty for the alteration of the interview. I believe her, and because I believe her, I say that she is lying when she tells Azatutyun that she has not encountered pressure, especially during the past five years,” said Manoyan. “I honestly don’t know why Ziflioglu decided or was forced to tell these two lies, but I sure can guess. God help her.”
Nanore Barsoumian
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I have heard many ARF sympathizers refer to Turkish-Armenians as Turks. Why should Manoyan be any different?
I think Manoyan is in politics for many years, to be sophisticated enough not to say such a thing to her face even if he thought so. So i assume she made it up based what she already thought about the ARF community. And it is smart not to be interviewed by this journalist again. Why on earth an armenian journalist goes and writes such a thing in a turkish newspaper. if he realy said so, why did not she go and write in an armenian newspaper about this insults.
How can Armenians live in a country that killed 1.5 million of their people less than 100 years ago, a country that has closed its border with Armenia, and supports the dictatorship in baku against Armenia, and furthermore, does not admit to the Genocide?
Arto T: You need to get your head out of the SAND, and further educate yourself about ARF. NOTE without ARF Armenians would’ve vanished in Diaspora including Turkey…… Ziflioglu, can someone explain what part of this name is Armenian?????
Arpi, I agree with you, good point. Regarding the names, in Ottoman times, most Armenians had Turkified names which replaced the ian with the Turkish version of oglu. Any Armenian can find out this way what their name used to be in the Ottoman empire… simply replace the ian with oglu.
This is not a black and white issue. We have to understand that wherever people live, regardless of their origins, they tend to become more like the rest of the citiziens. If you live in Russia for many years then of course slowly you will start thinking like Russians. Same aplies to other countries. Why would turkey be special?? Armenians living in turkey should not be offended by this fact. One thing I agree with Manoyan is that “Armenians in Turkey need God’s help more than Armenians around the world”.
OK, yes there are different traits that as humans we aquire from the mass around us but please don’t critisize the Bolsetsis so easily. It’s their right to live where they want but even under pressure they keep their identity which some of you living in North America won’t understand. It takes lots of courage to be outspoken there, take as an example Hrant Dink. Arto T, do you know Manoyan so well to judge him so quickly?
There is no valid reason Armenians should still be in turkey. Bringing up Armenians assimilating in other countries does not change the fact that turkey is (until they recognize the AG and provide some form of compensation), an existential threat to Armenia and Armenians.
Arto: I personally don’t know many ARF symphatizers but i know this: in my opinion NO Armenian on this planet would want to refer to any Armenian living in Turkey TURKS… that was a bold step on your part.. Our ancestors went through Genocide, unthinkable pain, relocation, conversions, ect ect ect but one thing remains.. no matter what fate brought on to them, no matter where they end up, they will always remain Armenians to me, to you and everyone else..especially to me… they may be different from us but they are still ARmenian by blood…
It is also worrisome to know our bethren living in Turkey where danger is always on the rise toward them… guess that is why most of them are hiding behind Turkish name and Turkish living mannerism.. hence, “hidden Armenians”…. May God truly watch over them…
Gayane
I am an Armenian from Turkey, a Bolsahay , and my last name does not end with ian? So what? Who are you people to judge the Armenianism of any Armenian? What type of upbringing and indoctrination have you gone through when you were being raised that you only see and believe that any Armenian should be “just like you” to qualify to be an Armenian.
For those who do not know the facts, the last name of most Armenians in Turkey were changed due to the last name law (soyadi kanunu) in the middle of the XX century. All minorities had to change their last name, they had no choice according to the law-which in my opinion was part of the states Turkification effort . Although the law was short lived and some managed to wait it out, most Armenians in Turkey had changed their last name with the fear of 1915 act II, during the WW2.
As far as the exchange between Manoyan and Ziflioglu nobody knows what really transpired between these two. I read the original article in Hurriyet as well, which was very poorly written and some of the statements made by Ziflioglu were mind boggling. However in this article while Manoyan defending himself and denying the allegations, I am yet to hear from his mouth CONDEMNATION of such thought where an Armenian from Turkey is called a “Turk” because of his or her zip code in the globe. In my opinion, until he comes out and does that, certain questions in one’s mind still remains unanswered.
For those who believe that differentiating themselves from rest of the Armenians due to their political view point and/or trying to disassociate part of the Armenian nation from the rest due the their geographical location of their home town or origin , I say “get a life “, you are no different than an enemy agent, since your goal is to divide the Armenian nation and make us more vulnerable. Remember what they want DIVIDE AND CONQUER, are you going to help them to succeed?
Thank you so much KYB for giving such a good answer. I am really puzzled by reading all these absurd comments and ideas about Bolsahay. I don’t want to see my Armenian brothers and sisters in ignorance. If you don’t have enough information about them then keep your opinion to yourself.I wish to have many Vercihans in diaspora who is young( 33 years old) and had published two Armenian poetry books and worked for Armenian newspapers. She is an award winning journalist and spends her vacations in Armenia instead of Antalya. I hope this information can open your eyes a little bit and next time do not judge a person without knowing anything.
By the way,one more thing, Gayane if you living in LA you can meet me or any Bolsahay in order to see that if they are different or not.Your comment was laughable.Sorry.
KYB:
re: “Who are you people to judge the Armenianism of any Armenian?”
Quite correct: you and only you decide; I and only I decide.
One needs to go to some legal process to become, say, a citizen of the Republic of Armenia, but an individual decides if they consider themselves Armenian or not.
Certainly the name or ability to speak the language cannot be qualifiers.
And KYB, you have a right to be angry, but one or two comments by posters should not be a basis for reaching a conclusion of how most of us think.
If you regularly visit ArmenianWeekly, you’ll see.
Nobody is a better or worse Armenian based on which country they were born or reside. Our ties go back 1000s of years. We are all one people.
NSH:
I think your read of Gayane incorrect: I don’t know her personally, but can judge by her posts which I have read over many months.
I don’t know what she meant by ‘different’ , but there is no doubt in my mind it was not meant as you took it.
Read the next sentence: “ to know our bethren living in Turkey where danger is always on the rise toward them… “
Gayane’s heart aches for all Armenians everywhere in the world: I have never seen a post by her that makes any distinction between us.
AR:
Sorry friend, but you got it backwards: Turks are living in our occupied lands. Armenians who are living under the boot of occupiers and invaders are serving the cause of justice. During WW2, Resistance stayed behind Nazi enemy lines: need I say more ?
——–
And I don’t know what Ms. Ziflioglu has or has not said, but we have to consider this:
Unless an Armenian living under occupation is freely and voluntarily co-operating with the occupiers, then everything they do has to be considered under duress.
When a prominent, peaceful Armenian man, who has advocated for peaceful coexistence with Turks, and who has advocated for Turkey joining EU, can be shot in the back of the head in broad daylight, and Turk Police Officers – instead of protecting him – proudly pose, smiling, with the murderer,……then no Armenian in Turkey is safe.
And that alone should be reason enough for us to admire Armenians who are still living on their ancestral lands currently under the boot of the occupiers.
For the record, there are bolsahyes that have last names ending in ‘ian. Not everyone changed their names.
Arpi, note that Arto T said that he had *heard* ARFers refer to bolsahyes as Turks and thus he’s cynical about Manoyan.
I don’t know about the actual conversation between Ziflioglu and Manoyan either but some Armenians do have negative views of Armenians in Turkey and frankly Armenians in muslim countries. I’ve read about fights during the pan armenian games between Hayastantsis and diaspora Armenians because the latter happen to live a muslim country. I’ve read how Iranian Armenians who moved to Armenia come up against misconceptions. Some had assumed they are muslim.
Again, I don’t know what was said between Manoyan and Ziflioglu.
Avery
“Turks are living in our occupied lands. Armenians who are living under the boot of occupiers and invaders are serving the cause of justice”
If some people still claim that the sun goes around the earth, does the truth change? as the opposite is true
I Parska-Hye and very familiar with such name callings, specially toward Turka-Hyes.
I’m also a frequent reader and comment poster of Vercihan Ziflioglu’s articles in Hurriyet Daily News.
Based on my own experience reading her articles, I can say that mostly she’s writing articles about Armenians in Turkey or abroad within Turkish ‘freedom of speech – 301’ guidelines, hence trying hard not to hurt feelings of either Armenians & Turks in special.
Therefore, I do not understand what the spokesman of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation ‘Giro Manoyan’ did expect from that interview?
Hey people! Don’t tell me that you don’t know she is ‘monitored’ ‘corrected’ or ‘suggested’ in some circumstances.
But even though, I prefer to have an Armenian journalist there in Hurriyet, who talks about common Armenian life in Turkey, instead of interviewing an ARF’s spokesman when it can not be reported with integrity.
Monastras:
Seljuk Turks invaded Armenian Highlands, thence Greek Byzantium from the Altai Mountains region and Mongolian Steppes.
The date they arrived in the Armenian Highlands is approximately year 1000 AD.
More specifically, the Battle of Manzikert/Manazkert in 1071 AD.
Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians had built culturally rich, thriving, sophisticated civilizations, which invading nomadic Seljuk Turk warrior tribes destroyed.
Whatever was not destroyed by them was later destroyed by their Ottoman progeny, then by Ittihad Turks.
Whatever was not destroyed was: stolen, confiscated, abducted, forcibly converted, plagiarized, counterfeited by Turks and is being presented to the World as ‘Turkish’.
Your ancestors are no different than the Nazis, who openly declared that Slavs would be exterminated to create Lebensraum in Western Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, etc for the ‘pure’ German race.
Fortunately for Humanity, Soviet Union defeated the Nazis and their plan failed.
Unfortunately for Humanity, Turks succeeded in almost completely exterminating the native Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians and creating their own Lebensraum for ‘pure’ Turks. (…..I can give you the link about the Turk racial purity experiments Mustafa Kemal ran in 1930s, but I am sure you already know).
So, yes the Earth does indeed rotate around the Sun, not the other way around.
And there is one more characteristic of the Universe where the Solar system exists: time moves forward.
That means people who lived in a place 3,000-4,000 BC, were there BEFORE the Turks invaded in 1000 AD.
So yes, you guys, Turks, are invaders and occupiers: historical fact.
Avery,
I am not sure if your responce was to my comment or not, maybe not, but if you could please add a logo color next to the name (such as red, green) whenever there are two or more posters under the same name, it would clear up some potential confusions. Thank you!
Monastras,
Speaking of the Sun and the Earth, I would like to inform you that ARmenians detected that the earth is round and it orbits the Sun along with 7 other planets as far back as 5,500 BC. And guess where they lived. So if some people still claim that Turks are the indigenous people of ARmenian Highland (which you were tought to reffer as Eastern Anatolia), does the TRUTH change?? DOES IT MONASTRAS??????????? :) ???????????
AR:
one of my responses – preceded by ‘AR’ – was indeed addressed to you (“…..Sorry friend….”), in regards to your statement: “There is no valid reason Armenians should still be in turkey.”
I can understand why you feel that way, but I disagree with you for the reasons I posted above.
I don’t know anyone else that posts under ‘Avery’; however your suggestion is good.
I’ll create an appropriate logo.
Thanks.
Avery.
Avery jan.. .thank you very much for your input…thank you for your comment to NSH…i was a bit surprised myself when I read his comment that was directed to me….
NSH: I don’t know if you misread my comment but no where in my post did I bashed anyone living in TUrkey ESPECIALLY ARmenians… I respect, and love ALL my people regardless where they live…. and let that be clear to anyone including you…..
Maybe i did not express my thoughts clearly in my post… maybe i misused the word “different”…with different I meant that Armenians living in different countries tend to become part of that culture… they act, talk, behave like the citizens of the host country.. differently than what some would consider “standard” Armenian this and that. it is unavoidable…however, it does not mean they are not Armenians.. they are Armenains by blood.. period…
My point was.. Armenians living in Turkey have much more danger lingering over their heads than anyone else… which is why it is worrisome to me.. I am worried ….
but this does not mean Armenians around the world are hating them, bashing them, talking trash about them.. they are our sisters and brothers… how could we?
This is why I pray to God that those who are still in Turkey are ok and without harm…
Gayane
avery
Turks didn’t invade only anatolia.they invaded prety much every direction they could. But bear in mind that turks wasn’t the only invader on earth. every community could have done the same if they had felt powerful enough including armenians. As you perfectly state that time goes forward thefore it is useless to blame turks now. I do not think that coexistence of turks, armenians and greek was possible in turkey.look at what pro kurdish party is trying to do, look at how nationalism burns the armenians heart, look at what the local greeks did during the greek occupation in the western turkey.how can we reconcile and move forward with these people?
gayane
The armenians life aren,t in dager in turkey. They weren’t in the scene a decade ago but they are represented in many organisations although their numbers are very small. I do not feel i am superior over armenians in turkey.i think most people feel the same but nationalism are on the rise in turkey which is no good. But the armenians effort to label turks and the prokurdish demands and glorifing terrorism by people like ayse gunaysu are only a few reasons for extreme nationalism
Once again few comments for the name of public education:
Today’s Armenian population of Istanbul is, 60 thousand natives and almost 40 thousand guest laborers from Armenia. That means almost 100 thousand Armenians live in Istanbul. That is a larger population than most cities in the Middle East nowadays. 60 thousand number has been a steady number since 1970’s until the guest workers from Armenia came, therefore they were not “in the scene a decade ago” is not a correct comment. These Armenians are no different than most of us who live in the Diaspora, they speak Armenian they are Orthodox Christians and many send their children to Armenian schools.
Donme Armenians (Turkified/converted)after the 1915 are not included in the above numbers, that number is suspected to be around 1.5 million. During the recent years many of them started to surface and openly started talking about their Armenian roots.
One of the 4 holy seas of the Armenian Church is in Istanbul, Armenian Patriarch of C.Bolis occupies the seat.
There are almost 40 Armenian actively operating churches in Istanbul ( if we include Armenian catholic as well as protestant churches). The doors of these churches are open seven days of the week for public visitation and prayer.
There are 6 Armenian Churches outside of Istanbul which are still operational and they fall under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate not the State ( unlike newly renovated Surp Khatc in Aghtamar).
Armenian Community in Istanbul supports two hospitals ( one of which is world class), two orphanages and 18 schools. Four of which are high schools.
There are two DAILY Armenian newspapers which are published in Istanbul Marmara & Jamanak besides weekly Agos and several others which are biweeklies or monthlies.
As far as “for the record” comment by one, the reason some of the Turkahay’s still have the “yan” ending last name (unlike most) is, as I indicated in my earlier post last name law which was in effect in Turkey in mid XXth century was short lived. Therefore some people who were late to change their last name were able to avoid it, but by the time the law was abolished many has already changed it. Nobody can claim that Turkish Armenians in Turkey do not try to be politically correct in their every move , since it is a matter of surviving, and avoiding issues with the State. Immigration is not easy for many due to cost and difficulties involved. Therefore before giving advice, as many often do on this blog it is important that one must have a complete understanding of facts on the ground. Armenian Nation does not need preachers, we have plenty of those. We need “unity”, we need people who knows and understands the importance of how to respect his or her brother regardless of minor differences in way of thinking due to where each one of us are from. We can only stay as a healthy and a forward looking nation if we can extend unconditional respect to one another regardless of our differences in ideology or expression.
Monastras:
First you ridicule me for saying that Turks are invaders and occupiers (….e.g. Sun revolves around the Earth).
Then you admit that indeed Turks are invaders [“Turks didn’t invade only anatolia.they invaded prety much every direction they could.”].
At least you are honest enough to admit that Turks indeed exterminated the original inhabitants, e.g.[ “. I do not think that coexistence of turks, armenians and greek was possible in turkey.”], although, if I read between the lines correctly, your position is that “…too bad, you guys got exterminated, we won…live with it…”( my words, not yours).
As to invading: you are quite correct – there have been invasions throughout human history. However, it is quite rare for the invaders to completely, in a pre-planned fashion, exterminate the original inhabitants. Turks are one of those rare, unfortunate exceptions.
Romans invaded and conquered dozens of countries during their empire. There certainly were punitive massacres. They did sell their captives into slavery. But they did not exterminate the original inhabitants. Their goal was not to exterminate, but to secure their borders, and collect taxes.
Persian Empire (e.g. Darius the Great) did invade and conquer dozens of countries. Yet those conquered were allowed to practice their own religion, by and large, and were not outright exterminated. Again the goal of the empire was control and commerce – not extermination.
Armenian Tigranes the Great did in fact invade neighboring countries, with the goal of securing alliances and collecting tribute: there was no wholesale extermination just to create Lebensraum as Turks successfully did, and Nazis failed.
I can give additional examples of Greek Alexander the Great Empire, the Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan, many others….but you get the point.
And as to [“…..look at what the local greeks did during the greek occupation in the western turkey….”:]: Before Turks invaded and occupied Byzantine Greece – what you call ‘western turkey’ – there were Greeks and other nationalities (not Turks) living there for 1000s of years. Invading Turks ethnically cleansed or exterminated the locals. Greeks were trying to expel invaders: unfortunately they failed.
In the Turkish mind history and time always starts with their own suffering: apparently peaceful Turks living somewhere, where there was nobody else living before, peacefully minding their own business, were attacked – out of the blue – for no reason at all…..
As I said, Turks are the first known invaders in human history who invented the State-Organized Genocide.
Nazis attempted to copy the Turks, but fortunately for Humanity they ultimately failed in their grand design (…except for the successful extermination of millions of Jews, Slavs, etc).
Gayane Jan, thank you for giving me answer. I will tell the truth your answer made me more puzzled again. I can say that some of your ideas about us do not make any sense to me. I wish you could meet more Bolsahays and see if they are in the same category that you are mentioning. I mean ” Standard Armenians” need to be explain. Can you tell me who is ” Standard Armenian”? I think we are beyond that standard since all these years we kept going .Gayane jan, I been living in LA since 25 years and did not change myself a little bit because I have a strong cultural and national foundation. I had my education like others in Armenian schools from Kinder to High School.When I came here I could not put my son to an Armenian school and that was the worse thing for me.After registering him to a local school I cry all the way home.When you are mentioning blood, yes our blood may be the same but more reddish. As an Armenian mother I taught him our language and culture and still doing it. I do not want to be worry about us because we know how to handle the problems and keep our dignity. We are very strong community with all institutions and proud people.
I hope you get a little bit information about us and change your mind.Have a great day!
Its nice to hear from Armenian’s and I only love to say I’m really proud of Bolsahays because you guys stayed in our old lands after the Genocide and stood strong to this day. I’m proud to hear this, I honestly haven’t heard much about Bolshays, but I would love to learn more because that’s the other half of our Armenian’s.
Avery,
There are two ARs commenting on this post. I am not the “red logo” AR who stated “There is no valid reason Armenians should still be in turkey.” So your comment was not directed to me. My logo is brownish red. Yoa are right nobody posts under “Avery”, so no need to change yours.
As for MONASTRAS, he is running away from my question and I am not going to chase him, but it seems like he found interest to comment to you and found a strength in him to face the truth for the first time. I think he is much stronger than he thinks. So lets encourage him to face more thruth. Although the aswer to his last question (how can we reconcile and move forward with these people?) is — get rid of everything that does not belong to you, I think his mind has the potential to understand that too.
Gayane,
MONASTRAS is trying to portray himself as a democracy loving person by saying “I do not feel i am superior over armenians in turkey.i think most people feel the same but nationalism are on the rise in turkey which is no good.” But he does NOT realize that his previous statement/conclusion to Avery “I do not think that coexistence of turks, armenians and greek was possible in turkey” is a contradiction. It shows what the turkish majority’s essence, mindset, phylosophy, education (in schools), views and goals are. It is not his fault, he is the carefully designed and polished product of the turkish government. In his comments to Avery he claims “ every community could have done the same if they had felt powerful enough including armenians”. This poor guy is clueless about ARmenian history and that 1000 years prior to turks’ appearance on this planet there was an ARmenia king by the name Tigran the Great who conquered almost every known nation in and around the Middle East but never forced them to learn ARmenian or never tried to wipe them out of their existence. Hopefully one day he will learn that there is a BIG difference between WAR and Genocide.
Exactly, AR. Tigran the Great even spared local kings of the lands he conquered thus minimizing their resistance to him. No race annihilation is ever recorded in the history of the Armenian people either by Armenian or foreign historians. Therefore, to state that “every community could have done the same if they had felt powerful enough, including Armenians” is an absurd statement. There are nations in the world not capable of mass murdering human being. Sadly, there other a few others, Turks included, who are internationally proven to be capable. Murders of Dink, his lawyer, and a Catholic archbishop in the modern times is the most recent demonstration of their national proclivity towards murder.
NSH– thank you for your post.. I understand you perfectly….
Even though I don’t want to take this conversation on a different direction but I don’t believe that anyone outside of Armenia, anyone living in a different countries do not take upon SOME of the characteristics of that host country.. if you tell me you have lived in US for more than 20 years and have not changed a bit how you are that would be a lie.. now this is my own opinion.. my own thoughts.. i can be wrong..
I have been in US for more than 20 years.. I came here when I was 13 years old.. I have stronger ties to my country and my people and my history than EVER….I speak, write and read in Armenian and I tend to continue to teach that to my kids if I ever get married and have children… I don’t only educate my own Armenian friends but i also educate my NON-Armenians about our history/culture/our family values (as much as I know and I have learned)….i kept my culture and traditions alive; however I can’t and will not say that i have not adapted certain ways Americans do or think ….. i know for a fact my mental state about alot of things have changed.. Even my mom who is still living in the old days demonstrates a bit of change in her… ANYONE living in any country for years and years tend to adapt some characteristics of that host country whether we like it or not.. it could be very minor that you may not notice about yourself but others will….BUT this does not mean we are less Armenians… we are ALLL ARMENIANS… and will remain as such if we continue to be nationalistic, keep our history and culture alive, to keep our language and traditions close to our heart… like you are trying to do with your child.. i am very proud of you…
Hope I made myself clear but if not, just remember this: I love all my brothers and sisters and will always care and love them no matter where they live…..and no matter how they do things in their host countries…
Monastras- but their lives ARE in danger in Turkey… I understand that TUrks will not go out on a killing spree (even though that is a questionable matter if given the opportunity), Armenians can’t freely practice religion, can’t freely speak their mind, can’t freely be proud that they are from Armenian decent without constant pressure and censorship… and how we know this? Because time and again, we in Diaspora witness and read about many examples that show us otherwise…Armenians are not in small numbers in Turkey SIR or MADAM… If you present a favorable environment to openly admit ones ancestry, the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of HIDDEN ARMENIANS will come forth…that is besides the ones who are openly admitting their ancestry living in Turkey already…
Avery jan– excellent post… Apres
AR jan– du shat chisht es….100% agree ……
Gayane
AR: (with brownish red logo): sorry about the confusion; my mistake – should have paid more attention to the logo, instead of just the name.
thanks for the heads-up.
Gayane,
Hidden Armenians are a legend in the Armenian community. I do not mean that there isn’t any but if we really find out how many hidden Armenians we have you will be disappointed. I am sure in the near future lots of research will appear about this subject paid by Armenian foundations. As the Turkish society knows very well you can hardly find any Armenians in Anatolia whether they are hidden or visible. This sort of news in the Armenian media is largely exaggerated. If this was true we would have many thousands Armenians coming to Istanbul to display themselves but only a few Armenians came forward and according to one of these guy, their neighbours are already know that they are Armenians. If some people can come forward why some other thousands or millions are sitting back? as their neighbours must already know them anyway
Monastras,
How many hidden Armenians do you think there are outside of Istanbul and Ankara? What is a hidden Armenian? Does it include those who converted to Islam for their safety?
Here’s an interesting article concerning hidden Armenians and wikileaks.
http://www.reporter.am/go/article/2011-04-22-wikileaks-turkey-seeks-to-target–hidden-armenians–
Whether an Armenian is serving the turkish state under duress or willingly does not change the outcome of their actions. They are still hurting the Armenian cause. And Avery, I have nothing backwards. Also, most Armenians in turkey live in istanbul, sorry, but istanbul was never part of Armenia so they are not living on historical Armenian lands and therefore are not serving any cause for justice.
Dear readers,
As usual, the discussion went out of the topic. This article was about Vercihan Ziflioglu’s comments and Giro Manoyan’s reply. As far as I know both Vercihan and Manoyan personally, I think that Manoyan is a far more balanced and reliable person than Vercihan. Both used to be in a group of Armenian news on facebook where we also discussed this same issue. Unfortunately, Vercihan showed a level of hostility, intolerence and narow-mindedness which cannot be expected of any professional journalist, let alone a normal balanced person. Her attitude towards any kind of criticism she faced was like a spoiled teenage girl.
It is good that she is working at a giant media outlet in Turkey and reporting about minorities, but she’s not a hero and she mustn’t use her job as a cover for all her misdeeds and short comings.
I also protest the way people use patriotism as a cover for their faults. I don’t give a damn whether if she goes to Antalya or Sevan. What I care is that each person must do his/her job in the best way they can, and each person must stand behind their words and works like real men, instead of saying “but hey, look, I am a good patriot.”
After all, I regard this as her daily job and career, and off course she’s free to chose. However, if I was in her shoes, I wouldn’t let anything get on the expence of my integrity and transparency. A newspaper which called all Armenians “dogs” once, and continues the same policy till this very moment is definitely going to distort facts, even if she never did such things herself. But the real problem is, that she’s trying, without a plausible reason, to justify the unjustifiables, and most of the times she’s being illogical and making a fool out of herself for the sake of defending the wrong cause.
I used to have a good contact with her myself, but after kindly expressing my thoughts about this topic to her she refuses to talk to me anymore. Thank God it was a public conversation and many people can testify this. I pity her and I wish she was different.
Finally, allow me to ask you to not lecture each other about Turkish Armenians or whatever. This discussion is about something else. Please, do not generalize.
Thank you.
dear harout ekmanian
You said hurriyet called all armenians dog once
it is shocking if a national paper said this.can you please give me the date they made this statement otherwise i will be convinced that this is a distortion.when you give me the detail i will find out exactly what was said and tell you without adding anything
Thank you
Monastras
There are two categories of HIDDEN ARmenians in Turkey.
PAY ATTENTION
1st category: HIDDEN-AWARE ARmenians
2nd category: UNHIDDEN-UNAWARE ARmenians (which includes al least 70% of those who call themseves turks, most probably including yourself)
I can go on and on and on. If you want to hear why turks don’t look like their ancestors who were seljuks with asiatic features (like mongols), then kindly ask and I will tell you why! ;)
MOnastras— Hidden Armenians are a legend? You are lucky that your govt is such a coward to do DNA test because when that happens, i can assure that thousands upon thousands will have Armenian blood… including those who converted, speak Turkish 100% and have no ability to speak Armenian, look and speak like a Turkish citizen… rest assure that many will be partially ARmenians or their ancestors 100% Armenians…..why do you pretend to be intelligent about a subject matter that you don’t know much about.. please.. you need to stop this nonsense of yours…
Just one example of a Turkish ARmenian about
being a HIDDEN ARMENIAN in turkey…
A link below will tell you that this subject matter is NOT only in ARmenian media… make sure you have paper and pen ready for some notes…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h69Zz0sV0GY
thanks for the Youtube link Gayane: I had seen it before, but had lost the link.
We are all eagerly awaiting Monastras’s (….or our other Turk guests’) comments on the contents of the video, particularly the one about a Church being converted to a Mosque, the one about ‘Armenian’ being an insult, the ‘Infidel’ burial……
And all this is not some ancient history: it goes on in today’s Turkey.
gayane
Your example doesn’t prove me wrong.i advise you to read the entire conversation about the hidden armenians on hyeclub then you will understand my point.even some armenians from turkey find unreasonable to be hidden as this guy’s reason to be hidden is he or she is studying at a goverment university for free of charge but if he become unhidden he will have to leave the university because he is armenian.this is the most stupied thing i have ever heard. When you read the conversations you will find other armenians being sceptical.i think these are tiny details but my other comments aren,t being posted for no reason. What is the point for me to waste my time here
Now that we have assurances that “thousands upon thousands will have Armenian blood” or further that at “least 70% of those who call themseves turks” are in fact any combination of hidden/unaware Armenians, could we finally accept that these people also have an inalienable right to reside in Anatolia/Armenian Plateau like any ‘full-blooded’ Armenian, even if they now call themselves Turk, Kurd, Hamshen or whatever? Is it also possible to refrain from the incessant racism that rears its ugly head amongst diaspora Armenians in referring to these people as Mongolians (lovely nation who in fact happen to be 90% Buddhist) when in reality only a tenous link exists between the inhabitants of present day Turkey?
monastras,
Please view this
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-335857292932517366#
Oops. It looks like gayane already linked to that video. But it appears monastras is avoiding it.
random armenian
I am not avoiding anything but if i can not post my comment, how can i exchance my view eventhough there is no insult or swear word. This sort of things only happen in the turkish media when they receive thousands of comments for a news as sometimes they can not handle
Zeki:
You raise an interesting point. However, it isn’t that simple.
Forcibly injecting your genes into unwilling hosts does not gain you the right to reside in their house.
I don’t have hard data on that subject, so can’t be sure if 70% is correct, or is it 40%,60%,..or 80%.
But let’s work with that figure: 70% does not imply 70% of the population is Armenian (or Greek, or some mixture of both).
All it says is that 70% have some Armenian genes, not that 70% of their genes are Armenian: maybe 10% is Armenian, 10% Greek, and 80% Seljuk Turk, something like that (percentages I made up).
As to the ‘inalienable rights’: about 2,000,000 of our Armenian ancestors were exterminated (1800s to 1923+), their lives snuffed out forever; 10s of thousands of our boys and girls, young women abducted, forcibly Islamized and Turkified. What about their inalienable rights ?
Those 2 million Armenians, if allowed to live and procreate naturally would be about 20-30 million today in Western Armenia (I have heard much higher estimates, but let’s use 20): I say Turks ‘owe’ us that many lives – what do you say to that ?
Regarding the derogatory use of ‘Mongolian’: I agree with you that some Armenian posters use it as an insult; that is wrong. Today’s Mongolians are fine, peaceful people. However, most of the reference to ‘Mongolian’ is in this sense “…..Seljuk Turks from the Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains regions… invaded Armenian Highlands….”, which I have used numerous times, and which is an accurate statement.
Just the same, I’d look in the mirror first (not you personally, but Turks), before I’d complain about Armenian racism. Here:
ITEM: 2009. Turkish opposition politician, Canan Aritman, has “accused” Gul of having Armenian blood, and demanded that he undergo a genomic tests.
Gul responded by taking the line that his family is “100% Muslim and Turk”.
ITEM: 2010. Turkish journalist and publisher Cem Buyukcakir is sued by Gul for ‘insulting’ him. Cem’s crime ? published comments by some reader who said Gul’s mother is Armenian. Cem draws an 11-month sentence.
ITEM: 2011. Turkish politician Tuncer Sumer – political slogan and posters “TÜRKİYE TÜRKLERİNDİR İZMİR İZMİRLİLERİNDİR !” (Turkey for Turks….).
ITEM: 2011. A Dicle University midterm test by Prof. Yilmaz Polat had true/false [….questions that contained anti-Armenian wordings, such as “traitor”, “enemy collaborator”, “stabbing in the back”.]
ITEM: Early 1930s. Under the direction of Mustafa Kemal, founder of modern Turkey, and a figure of reverence to most Turks today, Turk racial purity tests are conducted by measuring skulls, etc. Kemal even ordered his adopted daughter, Afet Inan, to conduct even more extensive research and tests on this ‘important topic’.
Apres Avery JAN… excellent comment..
I am just stunned how ignorant these Turkish posters are to avoid either intentionally or not knowingly (i rather say intentionally because from what they say, i take it that they know very well what happened, whats going on and how stupid their reasonings come off on these pages….)….the things that are happening in their own country… i mean seriously? are you people that blind?
Monastras— i am sorry…. and who are you to say that the young man’s reason was not a good reason… are you living in his shoes??? NO.. so i say what you have commented in regards to hidden ARmenians remain untrue, hence your comments have been voided..
Also, you sound like your brothren RObert who always had cheese with his wine…kept wining about his posts on being posted.. ect .ect ect.. you sound just like him..seems like a common traits in you two many who think like you…
Zeki- Read and reread Avery’s comment.. I am sure it will help you to open up your very closed minded self to maybe learn what you have never been exposed to in your lifetime.. Avery provided an excellent reply to your comment.. read and learn…
Zeki,
If Turks are not originally from the Mongolian Steppes and the Altay Mountains, where you were taught they are from? Europe? Seriously, I’d like to know how your schoolbooks explain your nation’s appearance in Asia Minor. Any word there that Asia Minor has been already developed by civilized, indigenous nations before the invasions of Turks? Curious to know…
Zeki,
I did not say anything bad about Mongols. All I said was “with asiatic features (like mongols)”. If you or anybody else takes it as an insult then your strugle is with your ego. Also having an ARmenian blood through rape does not mean these people (70% unaware-unhidden) also have an inalienable right to reside in Anatolia/Armenian Plateau like any ’full-blooded’ Armenian who were the indigenious people of that land. But lets not get into “rights of people” because there are courts, laws and judges for that. Lets wait to see what they have to say about it. Do you see now Zeki why it is important for Turkey to recognize the Genocide?
Baron Giro;
I would like to leave to you with you, your heart and conscience.. I would like to leave to you with “past” and “future”… I’ll keep continue to produce my books also as a free journalist i will continue to my carrier… I love too much my Istanbul, i also respect my grandfather Krikor’s and grandmother Anna’s heritage… I am afraid of darkness Baron Giro! I leave you with Gomidas i am listening now his voice from “past” to “future” ! VERCİHAN ZİFLİOĞLU
Vercihan, you published your note to Giro in a public forum, so I hope you won’t mind my asking you to explain again what you meant to say to him and about yourself. I didn’t understand.
Certainly trying to succeed as a journalist in Turkey as an Armenian is a difficult path that involves alienating and compromising parts of yourself in order to be acceptable to a society that wants to deny the ‘darkness’ of its past…
Vercihan, it makes me wonder how long and how far it takes an Armenian to understand there isn’t any “MY” or even “OURS” to share with Turks, unless it’s just in our peaceful dream in which there was no Genocide and no forced migration of ethnic Armenians!
I wonder about “YOUR” Istanbul how much is really yours differently to many who thought the same before being rounded up and executed in 1915?