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Guest Contributor
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I didn’t get past the suspicious title of this essay… Why is it “anti-Semitic” to point out the unmistakable Jewish/Zionist role in the Armenian Genocide?
Anyone that want to see the true nature of Zionism, or organized Jewry, should read Ralph Schoenman’s book The Hidden History of Zionism: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/
It is well known fact that modern day Turks are a mix of various indignation nationalities with Turkic tribes that invaded the area 1000 years ago. Is not surprising that most Turks have Jewish, Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, or Kurdish genes. But regardless of their genetic makeup those who planned and carried out the Armenian Genocide were Muslims and Turkish nationalist that wanted to create a Christian fee country Turkey on the skeleton of Ottoman Empire. According to some scholars Hitler has some Jewish ancestry too, but that does not mean Jews were responsible for Holocaust.
Agree with you.
Enough is enough. Without any reason blaming Jews in everything.
It’s tremendous that you’ve given this whole issue a good airing. I’v painfully noticed how it’s been festering unhealthily in various nooks and crannies on the WWW. Hopefully getting it out in the light will lead to some much needed, reality based clarification in the relations between the Jewish and Armenian worlds and a more sober and detailed approach to the Armenian Genocide. It can’t just be left to the loonies or they’ll just push everything over the cliff. But the intimate connection between certain higher level dönmeh and the formulation of aggressive Turkish nationalism cannot simply be wished away.
Most Armenians today are pained by the knowledge that the Jewish Lobby (headed by AIPAC) in the United States is paramount in the denial and blocking of the reaffirmation of the Armenian Genocide. This – in and of itself – is a shameful and cannot be simply dismissed as yet another “conspiracy theory.” This is what angers most of Armenians today and imagine if the reverse was true – “Armenian lobby denies the Holocaust.” What would the Jewish reaction be to this vital role in horrific denial and towards Armenians? Yet again the victim is blamed for all the anguish and the unhealed wounds of an unrecognized genocide. The best and by far the only way to remove so-called “anti-semitism” (if you can call it as such when Armenians with greatest pain point this out) is for the Jewish people to take a righteous position and to demand from their organized community leaders like Abraham Foxman to once and for all end this shameful and ongoing act of the denial of the Armenian Genocide, since I do believe Jewish people must know very well the level of anguish the offspring of survivors go through. There will never be true human healing when there is so much injustice and mistruth.
The author needs to find out why his name is Rifat and not Rafael? Pressure? Hiding? From what? The Turks have always been very tolerant towards minority religions! And can it be taken advantage of? All you have to do is to ask a couple of poor people to take revenge in the name of religion. Denouncing the names of the writers is not a very good way of making a point. Surely he found a couple of articles refuting those theories. Where are they?
There are still a number of questions that are not 100% answered when it comes to the Armenian Genocide, especially since turkey has done everything in its power to distort the historical events. Yet, questioning the role of various ethnic or religious groups involvment in the AG shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing. If Jews were involved in the AG, this needs to be pointed out, I am tired of seeing the Armenian organizations in the U.S. being afraid to stand up to organizations like AIPAC, of course there have been a few times in recent years when ANCA have stood up to foxman and his cronies.
Search Christopher Jon Bjerknes and his book on the Armenian Genocide. It is avaliable as an e-book on his website.
One form of genocide denial is to blame another group (in this case the Jews) for what happened. Those who believe this form of denial and blame the Jews are being abused, and it looks from the article, will be abused til the end of days, by the perpetrators of the genocide (the Turks, bolsheviks?, and Germans?). Psychologically, they are being hurt and will be hurt, by genocide deniers (but only those who believe the deniers will be hurt).
If a scammer wants to sell you a lemon, a car that doesn’t work, a worthless stock, etc., he will lie and a sucker will buy it and get hurt, with no recourse. Same with genocide deniers; they lie and those who bought the lie are stuck with a lemon.
P.T. Barnum said a sucker is born every minute.
The posts are already full of scammers trying to blame the Jews; you can only warn the Armenians: “buyer beware.”
Off the subject, wait until Wall Street gets a hold of the next bunch of suckers to buy their worthless stocks in the next generation Wall Street crisis because an uneducated sucker is born every minute. You can’t really prevent all the crooks, you can just warn the victims before they become victims. You can only warn the Armenians before they become victims of genocide deniers. Armenians and Jews should be friends, as usual the enemy tries to divide and conquer.
My Jewish family knows about the Armenian genocide and feels the pain and anguish. They escaped the Russian Revolution and stayed in Constantinople for ten years. My father and uncle attended Robert College, established to teach the Christians in Turkey. When my aunt came to the USA, she did not know about the genocide, and only found out when she met and married my Armenian uncle. A Turk, Ali, took care of their farm. I guess they all had the strength to survive, since it was very difficult for the survivors, and there were a few in the family, to keep their mental balance or not commit suicide, the crimes were so horrible. They had the strength and the courage to overcome. I certainly do think more Jews are becoming aware of the Armenian genocide; I don’t think they all know about it; and I am sure many will visit the Armenian genocide museum opening in Washington next year. It is sad to see how the perpetrators of the genocide are still hurting you with their denial. I was surprised at how bad the situation in Turkey was. The only friends we had in Turkey left years ago. I think now it is also bad for the secularists today and they are really afraid.
I only recently learned more about it from my family when I asked them. I can understand why they didn’t want to discuss it because it was horrible. They were more resilient, which you need to be to overcome a trauma.
It is starting to make sense. Why then do some Jews and many Jewish organizations take such an active role in Armenian Genocide denial? Why would the truth of another races’ genocide be such a threat to them? And, why would the recognition of the Armenian Genocide specifically be a threat to the Jews in Turkey? It that why Hitler said, “who after all remembers the Armenians”? Maybe he knew something we don’t?
Were Jews, as a people, responsible for the Armenian genocide? The short answer is, no.
However, the political variant of Judaism, organized Jewry or Zionism, was definitely involved in the genocidal agenda against Armenians of the Ottoman Empire. According to Ralph Schoenman (a holocaust survivor and an ardent anti-Zionist activist) the founding fathers of Israel, Hertzel and Jabotinsky, openly supported the genocide of Armenians in the Ottoman empire with the hopes of gaining political favors in Palestine, then under Ottoman jurisdiction. Let’s remember that Jews were in Germany then what they are in the United States today. Let’s also remember that Salonika Jews were prominently represented within the Young Turk movement (much like the Jewish representation in the warmongering “neo-conservative” movement here in the US). Even on a societal level, there are many documented cases of Jews working with Turks to persecute Armenians and Greeks – the two main Christian competitors within the Ottoman economy.
In short, while the average Shlomo may have been innocent, organized Jewry was clearly an integral part of the genocide that befell Armenians. Even today we see remnants of the anti-Armenian sentiments of organized Jewry. After Turks and Kurds Jews are perhaps the only other nationality that needs to face up to their crimes against the Armenian nation.
I’m not even going to start discussing Jews and Bolshevism…
Having taken a closer look at the excerpt (chapter 9) that you posted from Rifat Bali’s book, I find it very unfortunate that he has besmirched Hrant Dink’s honor as an independent intellectual by tendentiously associating him with thinkers who were not fit to tie his shoes. Nowhere is Dink quoted as saying anything that suggests he gave any credence to the crude notion that “Jews were behind the genocide of the Armenians”. What he is quoted as saying is very nuanced, i. e., that there are many questions having to do with the rivalry between two minorities within the Ottoman Empire, the Jewish and the Armenian. His addressing that issue is stated honestly and in a balanced, measured tone. The only way he might have avoided being placed in such obnoxious company in Bali’s book would have been to bite his tongue and stay silent until the end. The imputation of the “Sabbatean conspiracy” mindset to Dink is not justified and reflects the prejudices of the author.
Avetis, when they say semitic, they mean Assyrians and Jews were in the genocide. mostly Assyrians were being killed in Turkey, because there were more Assyrians in Turkey then there were Jews. and we wanted our country and we wanted to be independent but the Turks didnt let us and were fighting us not only because we wanted to be independent but also because we are christians, same goes with Armenians and Greeks.
The problem is that Turkey has threatened anyone mentioning the Armenian genocide in Turkey, under the penal code, with imprisonment or worse. You may compare this to the code of silence of the mafia, omerta. There was no freedom of speech on this topic. Brave journalists spent thousands of hours in Turkish prisons for speaking about this issue; only now do they allow any speech about it, but there is no law protecting those who speak out. They have blackmailed the world into not mentioning it by threatening to harm the Jews in Turkey; and when the genocide resolution came up, they also rounded up the Armenian workers from Armenia in Turkey for deportation. So they are willing and capable of inflicting harm on anyone in Turkey or outside who mentions the genocide. They also may not be willing to pay reparations or give back land, even if they apologize.
However, Ze’ev Elkin, who comes from the Ukraine and is head of the Armenia-Israel friendship group in Israel said that Russia also used these strong arm, blackmail tricks and that the Jews in Russia stood up to them; so he is not afraid to stand up to Turkey and speak out and pass the genocide resolution in Israel.
Very few Jews were bolsheviks; we were white Russians and fought with Kolchak.
Jewish groups were trying to protect the Jews in Turkey because of the threats Turkey made that it would harm the Jewish community if the resolution was passed. They also threatened to harm the Armenians in Turkey.
The EU said that Turkey cannot get into the EU before it allows freedom of speech on the Armenian genocide. Turkey is allowing a little, but I don’t know if they can reach the level the EU wants.
In Chicago, we have trouble putting the gangs into jail too, because of the code of silence, omerta; anyone who speaks out against the gangs can get killed.
It is apparent that Turkey is playing “blame the Jews” card to stir antisemitism on the part of Armenians. This of course will only help in employing Jewish lobby for its denial campaign. Turkey is counting on its many faces both appearing as a the only friend of Israel in the region, and fighter for the rights of Palestinians. However, Turkish society has deep rooted anit-Americanism, antisemitism and hate towards Armenians, which needs to be pointed out as their true face.
Hey AVETIS:
The number of unattributed statements and words in “quotes” in Ralph Schoenman’s book are a complete joke; it’s a book of opinions, not history. There are practically more footnotes in the above article.
No wonder he’s giving it away.
But the Armenian Genocide was a travesty and especially Jews (and other historically persecuted groups) should be much more active and vocal in publicizing the Armenian Genocide, rather than suppressing such efforts. No one has a monopoly on suffering.
How come nobody mentions The Inner Folds of Turkish Revolution by Mevlan Zadeh Rifat?
Or for that matter what T.E. Lawrence told his biographer concerning the composition of the Young Turks?
TO C.K. Garabed
Probably because it doesn’t seem to exist beyond the ravings of Jack Manuelian. Anyone read it?
P.S. Just cause it’s in a book (much less the Internet), doesn’t make it true…
It is absolutely irrelevant which national or religious roots people in government (CUP) belonged to. this is truly an exercise in futility. The responsibility of the Genocide falls on the shoulders of the government of the State, the Ottoman Empire. Today’s Turks might fall for shifting the blame to others, which by the way, might explain Prime Minister Erdogan’s daily utterance that it is apparently impossible for Muslims to commit genocide. And that it is impossible to blame his (Islamist) ancestors of this heinous crime. Our legal fight is with a legal State, and not with stateless and unaccountable entities.
This is dangerous because would be playing in Turk’s hands if we remove the responsibility of this crime from the hand of the Turk, the perpetrator, and put it into the hands of some invisible, hidden, conspiratorial party that has no power to redress and no physical existence for us to accuse. We would end up chasing political UFOs, Unidentified Fictitious Organizations.
It was after all Turkey’s responsibility that they let some other entities to control their country and they played in their hands. They let themselves being controlled and they too committed a heinous crime. It is after all Turkey’s responsibility.
This is an US-official Report (1921), just have a look on page 193 …
http://books.google.fr/books?id=uhs7rWlAlCcC&dq=seymour+house+paris+1918&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=vBDIqxqsjJ&sig=iVO2B_2NuO5BKhusNbG4T9fJ93A&hl=fr&ei=JXMJS-HTJ86w4Qbt4JnBCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
There’s nothing like blaming the Jews for everything that’s wrong on the planet. No one even stops to consider that the Jews can’t even control theor own country, one that is smaller than New Jersey, and that more than half the Jewish population of the planet has nothing to do with anything Jewish. If you want to believe the insane rants of haters who have nothing better to do than instigate stupidity and hatred for Jews who don’t even live among their people, that becomes your problem. It’s easier for dictators and totaliatrians and religious extremists to control their own people by focussing them to hate people who have nothing to do with them. Those who believe these lies deserve whatever they get when their human rights are trampled. Instead of revolting against their oppressors and the oil companies they deal with, they take it out on the Jews. How convenient for them.
But the National Geographic Genome project has already proven that most people on the planet have Jewish genes, even in darkest Africa. Most Europeans stem from three matrilineal Jewish lines. That includes those who considered themselves Aryans.
Pogrom anyone? Just blow up the whole planet and be done with it. That should solve the Jewish problem once and for all.
Two parts for my current contribution:
A] I couldn’t expect so many errors or approximations in that text which cites references:
The Ottoman and the Kemalist declared war to Russia or to USSR. That reality is easily ignored by the pro-turkish columnists.
The Ottomans joined the Kaiser and declared war to Allies in 1914.
(In the WW2, Ankara declared war to Germany 7 weeks before the suicide of Hitler!)
Someone write “the first murderers were the armenian troops with the Russian army”, I only suggest to that Someone to verify the date of the Russian attack compared to 1915. I have not the same data.
I had never heard before that the ASALA killed the diplomats because they were Dönme. Something new? I am always surprised to notice the turks making confusion with ASALA and Dashnag-party, it’s absolutely different and, even more, ASALA commited only half of the attempts.
So many defaults weaken the text and make the author unbelievable.
B] Why to mention “antisemitism” (again and again) like a shield ?
Height members of CUP were jews. It seems that was reality. Some of them, like the lawyer Carasso, Ben Gourion etc… came from Europ. They were famous Zionists who wanted to ask the Sultan for an jewish province in the Ottoman Empire.
In the past, it was rivalry between the jews+Janissaries and the Armenians (Thesis By Jamgocyan, La Sorbonne, Paris).
It could be interesting to study if there was a link.
Today, 64 years after the WW2 Demjanjuk who is supposed to be involved in the Genocide of the Jews, is prosecuted.
C] On 1967, consecutively to the Israeli-Egypt war, General De Gaule President of France, declared “That people (Israel) of elite self-confident and dominating”. Another President, François Mitterrand declared to Jean D’Ormesson ” There is in France, a jewish lobby very powerful and harmful (in Le Rapport Gabriel”. (It is easily verifiable with Google.). They have never been called “antisemitic”. That people gives to humanity the best, philosophers, scholars, physicians, musicians but, also the worst : Kissinger (see “the Crimes of Mr.Kissinger” he daren’t come in Europ), Wolfowitz, Pearl, B.Lewis, Sharon, Dayan (who ousted that nice PM, Levi Eshkol for he wanted to treat tactfully the inferior Egyptian army)…
“But the National Geographic Genome project has already proven that most people on the planet have Jewish genes, even in darkest Africa. Most Europeans stem from three matrilineal Jewish lines. That includes those who considered themselves Aryans.”
This is sheer madness, another Jewish propaganda scheme to get people involved in their debilitating self-awareness.. Armenians, as a people, were living in the Armenian highland before Jews even existed as a nation-state (hence the advent of the Bronze and Iron age in Greater Armenia and archeological discoveries from the Araxes culture, circa 4,000 BC) . Most Europeans do not ‘stem’ from any three matrilineal lines, much less three JEWISH lines. Let’s not even get started about Africa and Asia. The oldest known historical evidence of Judaism comes the a few centuries before Ramses, sometime around 1700 BC.
Karekin you are right. I mean about Armenians and Europeans having their own blood but not mixed with Jewish blood. After all, Armenians are at least 7-8,000 years old nationality. Even the Chinese are not as old, they are only 5,600 year old nationality. The British migrated from Armenia. It’s in their history’s manuscripts and it is on the website. Anyone can see it. Furthermore, Armenians first created the calendars. The Greek Panthenon was built 5,000 years after ours was built. And Garni Keghart was built only 1,000 years ago. We taught the world architecture, engineering and building.
I think what Ms. Friedman is referring to is a particular Near Eastern/Anatolian gene that is found throughout the world. Arabs, Turks, Kurds, Armenians also have that genetic marker. If anything the gene in question is more Armenian than anything else, but it is silly to attach a nationality to it.
And please Ms. Friedman, don’t bring points into this discussion that no one has brought up, stick to the topic.
I don’t think anyone here is saying that Jews were responsible for the Genocide, what some have pointed out is that there is evidence to support the claims that some of the young turks were of Jewish extraction, and that Zionism was/is against Armenia. Also, Ms. Friedman, do you not find it ironic that Jewish organizations have for years lobbied against the U.S. recognition of the Armenian Genocide, and the fact that Israel, a nation built out of the ashes of the Jewish Genocide, does NOT recognize the Genocide of the Armenians?
I think the point was to disprove the racist theory of the Nazis by saying there is no thing as white supremacy or genes. Also, in addition to their racist theory, the Nazis were the worst antisemites. If Nazis continue to spread their propaganda today, AR (which I believe you are doing); and the Jews have always been their target, we can easily prove the Germans were the instigators behind the Armenian genocide and later the Holocaust (this is an established historical fact I believe). Later Ataturk said that Turkey should never get into another war, and if it had to, never to be on the side of the Germans again, when you win with Germany, you lose. Was that an implication that he thought the Armenian genocide had been wrong and instigated by Germany? The first Turkish govt. after the genocide, had decided to make reparations and restore the Armenians to their homes and land; but that govt. fell before it could be done; so many Turks thought what was done to the Armenians was wrong at the time.
I am reading the autobiography of Caleb Frank Gates, who was a missionary from Chicago, who came and taught the Armenians at Harput during the massacres, and later became president of Robert College in Constantinople. I believe his book gives an accurate eye witness account of what happened during the Armenian massacres. It is quite an interesting book; and I hope many of you will read it. He was also one of the people to draft the Lausanne Treaty, and he gives his reasons for why he suggested the terms of the Treaty,and also his heart wrenching description of what was going on to the Armenians. I am researching the pictures I have of my family in Turkey and found one I believe is of Caleb Frank Gates with my uncle, a student at Robert College. I hope what I research will interest many of you as it has interested me. I will supply his autobiography with the pictures to the Armenians for their historical records.
Genocide denial,
The typical turk, trying to tell Armenians their own history. Stick to the subject, stop bringing in bs and if you care so much about anti-semitism, then do something about it in your country, which ranks quite high in anti-Armenian, anti-American, and anti-Jewish sentiments.
Spare us the research, or rather the garbage, which you are ‘researching’.
I am an Armenian, my mother happens to be Jewish, so I guess my Armenian friends will call me a Jew. But trust me, I am a proud Armenian. My grandfather ended up in Der Zor desert, where he was picked up by priests and eventually brought to Beirut and into an orphanage.
Let us look at some numbers here. Estimated offsprings of:
1. Armenian -Jews= about 70,000, some estimate as high as 100,000.
2. Turkish-Jews= about 300, some estimates as high as 600, and all Islamized.
Now, we have the cards in our corner, but are not using it. And there the Turks use their estimated 300-600 Islamized mixed Jews for their benefit.
What do/did we do to reach out to world Jewery? Nothing.
Yeah yeah, we all know that the love affair between Israel and Turkey is solely a strategic partnership. Israel knows damn well, that sooner or later, Islamic Turkey will betray Israel, but for now they need each other. And trust me, I hate Israel for turning its back on us. But things are changing.
We need to come together and form a solid bond between Israel and Armenia. We cannot forever villify the Jews for anything and everything that happens in the world? You see how foolishly we fall for stupid inuendos and start an anti-Jewish campaign, and all the while Turkey stands and watches with admiration for our political naivette? Who cares who was jewish in the ranks of the young Turks, what difference would that have made, if for example the leaders of the young Turks were predominantly Albanian. Absolutely nothing. And who cares whether the majority of Communist leaders in Russia were of Jewish origin. If the Russians were that dumb, then they deserved those jewish leaders. And what about Stalin? He killed an estimated(latest estimates 2008) about 39 million people in the Soviet Union. So, we should villify Georgians for Stalins muderous regime?
A crime has been committed, and the country known as the Ottoman Empire committed that crime. If there was an Islamized Jew in their ranks, well, too bad, as all 300-600 mixed current Turkish-Jews are Muslim.
As for the “Freemasonry,” I got some encouraging news for my people here.
Most of the high ranking High Malakhiahs in the USA are either Armenian or Jewish.
Check the history of the Freemasonry, and you will be surprised to see the number of Armenians in the organization. Krikor Zohrab was a high ranking Freemason, and he was not spared death at the hands of the Turks. To conclude, Armenians are, read my words, “heavily” involved in Freemasonry, and you will be surprised if I divulge the names of Armenian government officials, and reputable party members(all 3 traditional Armenian parties) here in the USA, who are high ranking Freemasons. So, does that mean we have traitors in our ranks? Come on guys, let’s grow up.
We need to stay away from gossip, whether that gossip is true or imaginary, and stick to our main goal, the Recognition of the Genocide.
As children, many of us had an excercise called ‘connect the dots’, at the end of which, we were able to see a very clear picture of something that was previously invisible. Sadly, many adult Armenians are failing this fairly straightforward excercise. They’re also failing to follow the idea that ‘where there is smoke, there is fire’. If an entire group of people, their leaders and organizations – other than nationalist Turks – deny the veracity of the Armenian genocide…there might be a much deeper historical reason that has nothing to do with current geopolitical realities. Time to wake up and smell the real coffee that’s brewing….
I know two high ranking ARF members, 1 Ramgavar and 3 Hunchaks, these are high ranking party officials, mind you.. who are also high ranking Freemasons. Also 2 high ranking ARF members in Armenia whose mothers are Jewish. So, what was the point bringing Freemasonry or Jewishness in this article. Christ, almost all of my friends are Freemasons. Does this mean that our leaders too, are involved in treacherous activities, that we don’t know of? Grow up people.
Whether there were Jewish, Zionist or Freemasonry conspiracies against us, then look around and you’ll see all three in our people. I have heard that Armenian-Jewish people number more than 120,000. But are we able to harness this powerhouse for our benefit? NOOOOOOOO, because we all are blinded by this and that. And there in Turkey, they have learned long ago to use and harness the energy from 500 plus Islamized Jews for their benefit.
Now, you tell me who is ahead of this game, the Armenians or the Turks?
The answer is in big T T T T T T T T T T Turkey.
Now look at us, once again being distracted from our main goals.
When will we learn, relax and move forward?
The fundamental problem is in the completely opposite treatment received by the Armenian and Jewish subjects of the Ottoman Empire. While Jewish subjects were being sheltered, promoted and elevated to very high positions and certain dönme were making indispensable contributions to the development of lethal Turkish nationalism, Armenians were being persecuted, dispossessed and ultimately exterminated. This has to be squarely confronted if Armenians and Jews are to walk into the future hand in hand and with their eyes open. Ultimately the responsibility for the Armenian Genocide rests with the Turkish state, regardless of the ethnic extraction of the individuals who were the architects of its crimes. And it would be well to remind the President and the world that “Medz Yeghern” does not mean “great catastrophe”. It means very simply “Great Crime”.
Diran, can’t you see the difference between the 2.5 million Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire, and the 60,000 Jewish subjects of the same Empire. One living on its ancestral land, the other, merely passing by. Now, assuming that you are a highly intelligent young man, who do you think the Ottoman Empire will have issues with? The Armenians? or the Jews? The threat naturally will come from the Armenians, living on their lands and counting 2.5 million. Whereas the Jews lived in Istanbul(mainly) and were no threat to the Ottoman Empire.
Hence the systematic massacre of the Armenians.
I don’t understand why we are naive falling into this Turkish traps over and over again? Why?
We should act like the Turks, kiss the Jews and then turn around and stab them (remember how erdogan made Peres look like a first rate dumbbed fool???), and not the other way around.
We love Jews and Israel, period, end of story.
There certainly are a lot of antisemitic comments under this article.
1. Re: Jack Manuelian and Christopher the Nazi. JM also writes for the Nostradamus society; he predicted WWIII and the end of the world will come in 2012. Anyone interested in 2012, this is the Mayan year for apocalypse; and there is a movie out called 2012 which you can go see and entertain yourself. Obviously, the only entertainment you get is reading or imagining Jewish conspiracy theories and maybe apocalypse 2012. Anyone who believes 2012 is the end of the world and WWIII is coming and Jewish conspiracy theories and calls historical research b.s., are you sure you are not one of those genocide deniers.
2. Many Jews were also killed during the Armenian massacres.
3. I did read that Jews and Armenians did fight with each other in Turkey; maybe due to the Ottoman system which pit each against another; I think you can also evidence this in Lebanon today, which has no Jews now, but has shiites, sunnis and Christians fighting with each other due to the confessional system. Armenians did also fight with each other, Zoroastrians vs. Christians. It is possible, David, son of Queen Esther, fought your Vartan). Maybe some people fight religious wars, Christians vs. Jews. Everything was not all roses in the past; but blaming the Jews for the Armenian genocide is as silly, I think, as believing the world will end in 2012. Anyway, a lot of Jews and Christian Armenians are intermarried today. Jewish history was influenced by Persians a lot; they were pretty close people, but look at Iran today (Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier; and is he Armenian – Sabojtian?); can you believe this is the land of biblical Persia and Cyrus, of Esther and Zoroaster? What has happened to Iran?
Armenians do deserve sympathy for what happened to them; they deserve attention and love from the world; the Armenian genocide was one of the worst crimes in history as was the Holocaust.
Unfortunately, many of you speak badly of Jews and blame them for your troubles, but I don’t think you will find many or any Jews who would not feel sorry for you or would deny the Armenian genocide.
I read that it took a long time for the Lausanne Treaty to be passed (years) because USA did not want to do business with the new Nationalistic Turkey due to the Armenian genocide. It was passed after much deliberation due to the missionaries (who thought that Armenians could never live side by side with Turks again and that this would always be a difficulty for them; they suggested the Armenians move away from them) and that it was better to keep channels open with Turkey; by American business interests who wanted to protect their interests by keeping diplomatic channels open with Ataturk; and maybe the oil business. Real politics, capitalism, took precedent over humanitarianism perhaps. It seems you are still fighting to change the Lausanne treaty and get reparations and land back. I just thought that many historians know that Americans had been on the side of the Armenians and did not want to do business with Ataturk’s Turkey at all, but I wonder how many people don’t.
So USA has been playing real politics; not because they were anti-Armenian or pro-Turk, but for various reasons, including business reasons. Also, 1932 was the year Turkish nationalists shut down the history dept. at Robert College and replaced it with Turkish teachers and I guess their own version of history; and this is the year the president of Robert College left because his son was the history professor, and this is the year my dad and uncle probably left. Turkish nationalism took over the University more and more every year and more minorities left Turkey, etc.
More crap for you to complain about.
You have an excellent point Serop.
There are mountains of differences between the attitude and actions of Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Jews and their fates during the worst times of the Ottomans.
Armenians hatched a Greater Armenia scheme, on lands to be ethnically cleansed (of its Muslims) at the expense of the Sick Man of Europe. They took up arms, attacked civilians and soldiers when the country was already under attack on all sides, they launched first terrorist attacks in modern times against their own state and country, they joined the enemy with the weapons given to them to defend their lands, they gave the keys of ancient Ottoman cities in the East to Czar’s generals, and in short they presented a mortal threat not just to the state but to the very people of the land.
Ottoman Jews did none of that.
You seem half smart Serop, you think this explains the difference in the fates of these two “millets”?
The comparative population is a very valid point. Not only that, the Turkish Jews were not restive or separatist like the Armenians. But the point is that the important contributions made to the program of the Young Turks by its dönme members coincided with contemporaneous Zionist efforts to establish a Jewish homeland on Ottoman real estate, although that factor was always denied in favor of the strict Ottomanism professed by the dönme. Here is a quote from page 230 of the book “Jews, Turks, Ottomans”, edited by Avigdor Levy, from the section authored by Feroz Ahmad, in which probably the best known of the dönme figures in the CUP, Emmanuel Karasu, is being discussed: ‘The Jewish political élite was never monolithic, and the conflicting commitments to Ottomanism and Zionism would have been a matter for the individual conscience. . . . Karasu (in his own words) had “to reconcile his duty as a Turkish patriot with that of a nationalist Jew.” ‘ Part of Karasu’s “duty as a Turkish patriot” led to his enriching himself on the provision of food supplies to the Turkish army right through the genocide of the Armenians.
Jews are great people. The greatest Jews always sided with the truth, the Genocide. We do, however understand the strategic importance of Turkey for the state of Israel in the turbulent middle east, but as Ariel, my Israeli friend put it, Israel is no fool, and they know that this one sided love relationship will someday come to an end, and as such, contingency plans are being prepared for that day.
Long live Armenia, long live Israel.
To “Genocide denial”
Regarding Ahmadinejad, just a week ago, Mossad came up with the surprise of the century.
They found diaries of Ahmadinejads Jewish grandmother, who wrote in her diary ” how proud she was that her grandson had his Bar Mitzvah, and how beautiful he sang, and how she shed happy tears etc etc. So, sorry my friend, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is Jewish. I have not seen an Armenian going through a Bar Mitzvah…..yet. But hey, I still love Israel and all Jews worldwide.
I think there were two constitutional groups. The first did contain a hidden Jew. It is the second consisting of the Young Turks, which I do believe did not have any hidden Jews.
To change the subject, I believe that Caleb Frank Gates, belongs in your hall of the righteous for saving hundreds and thousands of Armenian lives. He went to Turkey to teach the Christians and during his long life, if you read his autobiography, at great DANGER to his life, he had the courage and goodness and religious faith to save thousands of Armenians in Harput during the massacres and later in Constantinople, to speak on their behalf; and he headed the Near East Relief in Constantinople. I do hope your Genocide Museum will remember the righteous missionaries who saved more than one Armenian life. He was a great man and good person. I will write to the museum asking that he be remembered.
Murat, the Turkish version is totally wrong. Although there were a few Armenian instigators, the majority of Armenians did not pose any threat. Morgenthau suggested the Turks arrest the few Armenian instigators; instead the Armenians were massacred. The genocide was thoroughly unjustified according to Caleb Gates’ biography. I read this book and found out what happened; I have been listening to the Turkish version from the preent Turkish govt. and from posters like you. I had to read the book to find out what really happened. I am surprised more Armenians don’t speak out to you to tell you the truth. I am an American Jew. Unfortunately, Turkey is not having people speak up to them and tell them the Armenian people never were a threat. There was an evil parnoid sultan, and maybe jealousy among Turks of the Armenians who were very successful.
Murat, the Armenian genocide was unjustified. They were no threat to the Ottoman Empire. What I have been reading by posters, even in Haaretz, that the Jews during the Holocaust were not a threat, but the Armenians took up arms is FALSE and the situation was different; au contraire, it may be entirely similar. The Holocaust and Armenian genocide both killed innocent people out of prejudice; both of them were no threat. I really don’t trust all posters, since many may be Turkish genocide deniers using false names or people who lived in Turkey who were taught a false historical account of the Armenian genocide. The Turkish govt. has been teaching them lies about Armenia and still speaks the same lies.
I did see Shimon Peres in Turkey in Hurriyet?; tensions were high because of the genocide bill. The AKP told him Armenians were a threat to the Ottoman Empire and ready to rebel; and unfortunately, he agreed. Did he want to keep ties with Turkey at any cost, or did he actually believe that? Well, in truth, a lot of Turkish people did believe the Armenian people were armed and a threat, and this may have led to the massacres. But according to the missionary there at the time, this was not true. In one story he relates, he says he took any guns he could find from the Armenians and delivered them to the Turkish gendarme, who stopped an attack on them; and the missionary said, he did not believe the extent the Turks thought the Armenians were armed to harm them, which he said was a total untruth, the lie Turkey speaks today. Too bad I didn’t read this book sooner, I could have posted a reply on Haaretz defending the Armenians.
To: Genocide denial.
I just read an article about Mahmoud Ahmadinjeds ancestry. Not Armenian, I believe the article mentions either Mossad or Shin Bet, that letters discovered suggest Ahmadinejd had a Jewish grandmother, who happened to be present at his Bar Mitzvah, and she wrote that Ahmdinejds singing voice was beautiful(singing during the Bar Mitzvah ceremony).
In any case, for me, Hitlers(Jewish father), Ataturks(Albanian), Sultan Hamids(Armenian mother), Abdullah Guls(a Turkish think tank suggested that President Gul, beyond any doubt and almost 99.99% accuracy, has Armenian ancestry) , or a few Young Turks of Jewish ancestry, DOES NOT in any way take the blame from(decriminalize) the current day Turkish republic.
We blame the Jews, heck, Armenians and Jews intermarry MORE than any other peoples, for absolutely no reason. recent estimates put Jewish-Armenian offsprings about 100,000-125,000, now that, relatively speaking, is a huge number for two small peoples. Who owned the Ottoman Empire, the Jews? Conspiracies? Come on guys, most of our leaders, government and/or party have either Jewish mothers, wives, husbands, or great mothers/fathers.
The problem we have today is Confusion. We don’t know who to blame for the Genocide. The greatest minds of Jews and Zionists helped the Armenian cause in some way or shape. Does Morgenthau, Werfel, Weisel, lieberman, Boxer, Schiff ring any bells?
I don’t understand why we like to antagonize world Jewery. What is the logic behind it?
Turks are way ahead of us in diplomacy and politics.
Erdogan slammed Shimon Perez so hard that I thought the poor old man would cry. Perez’s face took every imaginable color in existence today…but then, they turned around and started kissing Israeli, you know what. And us? Instead of using our 100K mixed Armenian-Jews for our benefit, we go out and start bashing the Jew, and then wonder “why” Israel does not support our causes.
And, oh before I forget, Yep, I have a Jewish mother, who herself escaped the Holocaust, and as for my fathers relatives, you guessed it right, my grand father was the Only survivor in his immediate family, but I consider myself a very very very proud Armenian.
God bless Armenia and Artsakh.
Armenian Weekly. Kindly allow my opinion to be posted.
You seem to be stuck in an alternate reality. Overdose of self-propaganda does that. Here is the reality: Armenians took up arms and attacked their own state when it was in a state fo war. They were fielding regular troops, had generals, arms depots all over the place, staged terrorist attacks and openly joined forces with Russians to create a Greater Armenian on lands where they were minority. This is newspaper stuff. You think we learn all this from books? We lived there, our grandparents died there. How dare you compare this to Jews in WWII? How can you know so little and then lecture others about facts? When all face the facts, then there may be hope for real reconciliation. I am doubtful myself.
Murat: Go away, we don’t need the typical turkish talking points here, heard it enough already.
Greg: Two things, first, I am not sure where you are getting the number of Armenian-Jewish offspring from, can you please provide some kind of source? Second, reason israel is close with turkey is due to geopolitics, not because they like turks any more or less than Armenians. Fact is, in international affairs there are no friends just interests.
And many of our leaders are not of mixed Jewish ancestry, never were and never have been, so let us please stay away from making fanciful comments.
You should all pick up and read Dr. Robert Melson’s book, Revolution & Genocide. Therein, you will find a scholarly and very well researched study on the similarities of the Armenian genocide and the Jewish holocaust. No matter what anyone says, they are brother and sister. The CUP leaders of the bankrupt Ottoman empire turned on a group of its own citizens…while ignoring all the other minorities…and plotted to decimate them, steal their property, their businesses, their wealth, etc. and handed it over to their own supporters. At that time, Armenians were 20 – 25% of the Anatolian population, not unlike the position Kurds occupy today, and some of them decided to fight back in self-defense AFTER the Ottoman govt entered WWI with its imperial army. It was fighting wars on several fronts that doomed the Ottoman Empire, not the Armenians. And, it was a group of nutcases from Salonika who planned the largest ethnic cleansing on the planet at the time, not the imams of Konya who actually refused to cooperate in the crime.
AR
Go to CIA website.
Peoples
Armenians
Section ARcz8UY5
Article 299, paragraph 33.
You need to have access passcode for it.
It clearly shows a number of 150,000 mixed Armenian Jewish offsprings.
I had to trim the number to leave out any inconsistancies.
I largely agree with you Karekin but the Assyrians and Pontian Greeks were almost annihilated as well.
Anyone citing the CIA for numbers of Armenian-Jews is completely brainwashed. Many Jews, especially those from Iran, cited Armenian heritage in Iran in order to avoid persecution, even though they were pure Jewish (hence, the changing of names, and present day -ian surnames in Jewish families of Iran)
Citing 100,000-150,000 Armenian Jews would mean that almost 1% of All Armenians have Jewish ancestry, However, only about 3,000 Jews live in present day Armenia and most Armenian-Jews are ethnic Jews that lived in Soviet Armenia, not those that married Armenians. Of course, there was some intermarriage, and it is to be expected, as Jews and Armenians had a diaspora in many of the same countries: Iran, Russia, to name a few, however, the numbers reported are out of this world.
Yes, Joseph, that is very true.
Just the fact that the armed Armenian uprising and attempts at creating a Greater Armenia on lands where they were a minority is compared to the fate of Jews n WWII shows how far removed some folks are from reality. Is it really possible that people who have been obsessed with this topic can be so ignorant of the facts? Armeinan uprisings precede WWI! Is this the reason why there is so much concern about the airing of the facts? Is it not ironic that one of the places where one can freely discuss the topic is Turkey where there are regular conferences held and people have opined freely on both sides of the topic?
Murat should be reminded that the issue being aired is not the Armenian Genocide itself. It is the question of how much influence, if any, descendants of Sabbatean Turkish Jews had on the CUP decision to eliminate the Armenians. If he wishes to discuss the Armenian Genocide with his clearly limited means, he should do it elsewhere.
From one Jew to all Turks:
Get over it, the Genocide happened, OK?
Enough already, accept it and come out like men of higher moral authority, otherwise your half baked excuses denying the Genocide amounts to absolute nothing.
Peace
Omid
Descendant of no one had any influnce in the decision to eliminate the Armenian race since no such decision was taken, and no such elimination did take place as the plentiful descendents of the said race are here and there and everywhere.
In general, given the long history, Turks have had to face many facts regarding their history, some pleasant some not. This topic is only one of them. The problem is facing non existent facts. There are many issues related to the Republic already before addresing Ottoman history, let alone myths.
On the other hand, to have such demands made by people who are clearly in dark about the recent history of their ancestors, their war against the Ottoman Empire and the infighting and killings, just rubs all the wrong way. One should look into a mirror occasionally.
No amount of wishful thinking will re-write history.
Historians don’t give serious consideration to the conspiracy theory; however, read the posters who pooh pooh books and historical works. There is a lack of education or information available to people living under totalitarian societies which may lead to a vacuum to be filled by conspiracy theories.
I think we are questioning the conspiracy theory of history which attributes too much power to a group, i.e. the Jews, and attributes them with the cause of all the evil in the world. The Protocals of Zion was created by the Czar to demonize the Jews and blame them for all the problems and is still followed by Ahmadinejad in Iran and his antisemitic mentor. Not all Iranians are antisemitic; however, he is. Neither does Putin believe in the Protocals today.
Today the internet spreads a lot of conspiracy theories to the “fringe” group; it is an alternative to history as taught in schools or researched by historicans. A lot of these conspiracy theories are part of apocalytic prophesies. They include not only Jack Manuelian’s theory about WWIII with Iran coming in 2012; they include those about 9/11, etc. The question is how many people read and how many people believe these conspiracy theories of history; how scientific or realistic are they. Do people have to examine the reality and facts closer to see the reality, not conspiracy. Are there a lack of facts available? Is there, for instance, a lack of closure about the Armenian genocide, because of Turkey’s policy of not allowing free discussion, or lack of taking responsibility for it, that creates a need to blame the Jews, or a desire to blame the Jews to bring closure and not accept responsibility for the Turkish people’s crimes.
A psychologist wrote a book about the conspiracy theories on the internet. There are really a lot of them, if you believe in science fiction and fiction like theories which a lot of people seem to gather together in groups and follow on the internet.
As to who ordered the genocide of the Armenians, all books, including Morgenthau , I believe, blame the Germans for ordering the genocide. It was not part of a conspiracy theory of the Jews.
I can quote from an old book I have from a family friend who lived in Turkey at the time. He said everyone can write a book, and this is from his book concerning his life in Turkey. “Turkey – Key to the East,” by Chester Tobin. He taught at Macalester College in Minnesota and was there to coach the first Turkish Olympic Racing team.
1. “Thus, tragically, the Christian nations’ meddling in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire created in the warped mind of Sultan Abdul Hamid II a distrust and hatred of the Armenians.”
2. “The First World War broke on a weak and corrupt Ottoman Empire. German ober-officers were everywhere with the Turkish troops. By the spring of 1915 the Russians were pouring their troops through the Caucasus to launch their offensive against the eastern Ottoman front where lived many of the Armenians. The usual war propaganda was pushed over on these unfortunate people by the Russians. They were encouraged to betray their brutal rulers and help in their liberation by their Christian Russian brothers. Weapons of war were provided. Indeed to many Armenians it seemed their only hope. Armenian resistance became a real menace to the Turkish defense. German officers and civilians scattered throughout the Armenian districts. They instigated with Prussian thoroughness the wholesale deportations of the Armenians from near the front. The Armenian massacres, HISTORIANS AGREE, were not an impetuous act of fanatical Moslems bent on exterminating Christians. They were the result of the cold-blooded political policy of a weak Ottoman govt. influenced by the Prussians. It was the Prussians’ secret conviction that this was the logical time to eliminate a talented people whose functions in the Empire they intended to take over entirely after military victory had been achieved. This combination of cruel circumstances led to some of the worst crimes committed in the First World War. The Armenians were nearly exterminated.” Then the Germans exterminated the Jews in WWII.
The missionary said the Turks were fearful of the Armenians.
This fear and prejudice also led to the murderof the Armenians and crimes against humanity committed. Although there were some Armenian instigators, they could have been arrested by the Turks. Instead the whole Armenian people was massacred. The story the Turks tell about the armed Armenians in revolt is just false; the Turks had fear and prejudice against the Armenians. They massacred an unarmed people due to the influence of the Germans.
There are books written by witnesses as to who ordered the genocide; all I read blame the Germans.
Then I also read the triumphirate was just stupid and susceptible to follow the the Germans, as the Germans were only interested in their own interests, not in Turkey.
The Jewish conspiracy theory that blames the Jews for all the evils in the world, attributes too much power to them, and says they rule the world, is a fiction.
There are the accounts by people who lived there at the time, including Morgenthau, and there are conspiracy theories. One account is fact, the other is fiction. I agree that any historical rendering of events should stick to facts, not fiction. I suppose that is the trouble with Turkey’s historical commission; will it be fact or fiction? The facts have been established; will Turkey teach facts or fiction to their people, or let the facts be published in Turkey and around the world without punishment? Will they continue to tinker with our educational system and try to implant their fiction in our educational system. I think this is a serious threat. As long as they censor fact, conspiracy theories might continue as an alternate fiction to historical fact.
This talk about Jewish conspiracy against the Armenians is a Turkish propaganda. Not only Turks are getting desperate to blame their crime against the Armenians, they are trying to distance Jews from Armenians. Dear Armenians, do not fall for this trap. What Turks are doing is drawing other peoples into the Genocide equation, to lessen their responsibility committing the Genocide.
Any sane Armenian knows that Israeli-Turkish relations are temporary, we are seeing the resurgence of Islamic Turkey, and are well prepared to face the threat from Islamic Turkish republic.
Turks have to come to term with their murderous past. Yes, the Ottomans massacred 1.5 million Armenians, and as Ovid said in his post, it is about time Turks come clean, leave their murderous past behind them and join the world community of civilized countries.
The Genocide was and still is the first mass murder of human beings on the hands of other human beings. We deal with Turks every day, they are all cowards, I assure my Armenian friends that they will never accept their responsibility murdering innocent people. They are quick to betray their friends.
Here is an example. We supported Turkey through thin and thick, but then they turn and when you least suspect, draw their knives and try to kill you. remember Erdogan the Islamist terrorist who tried to shame Israel? That is how Muslim Turks are.
And they want to join the european Union, what a joke.
I rather have 10 million Armenians living in Israel, then one Muslim Turk..aaaargh
All this Israel love fest is quite disturbing for me as an Armenian. What’s with all the lofty talk by these Zionists and their subservient Armenian lackeys? Let’s remember that Israeli Jews are to regional Arabs what Turks are to Armenians. And before we continue bashing Germans let’s also remember that at the time in question Jews were in German what they are in America today. Besides having a clear hand in the Turk’s genocidal campaign against Armenians during the early part of the 20th century, organized Jewry is the greatest obstacle against our Hai Dat in the early part of the 21st century…
The Germans had a very heavy involvement in what befell the Armenians from Abdul Hamid up to the reign of the CUP. It was the Kaiser himself who personally presented a medal to Abdul Hamid after the massacres of the 1890’s
Perhaps Mr. Ahmet Davutoglu (son of David) might be able to offer an illustrative comment or two?
It is a fact that andrew jackson was a freemason and belonged to the Presbyterian church. That has nothing to do with his signing of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which resulted in the full scale genocide of the Native Indians. Are Presbyterian responsible for the Native Indian’s Genocide? No, all Americans are responsible, regardless of when they came to this country.
It is also a fact that hitler was born in Austria. should Austria pay compensations to Israel?
Many countries and groups had direct and indirect interests in wiping out the Armenians from that part of the world, such as Germany and Kurds. maybe a group of Jews did also. But that doesn’t mean they should be or could be recognized as criminal parties under international law.
In any genocide the whole infrastructure of the government is involved. And always in the society the potential for it, has already been built up over at least a few decades.
I think it’s best to ignore people like christopher bjerknes, since their reasoning is false. But we should never shy away from facts. Specially historians should not be intimidated by being labeled as “ani-semitic”.
Yes, major figures amongst the young tucks were Domme and/or freemasons. So what?!?
If christopher bjerknes works under a popetier, and this whole thing is part of a game or a trap, we should not play their game, because no matter what, it will be a lose-lose situation for us.
The issue, as I see it, is not what ethnicity some in the highest echelons of the CUP belonged to or whether or not they were initiated in secret societies. The issue is about the fact that both Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid II and the Ittihadists represented the official governments of the Ottoman Turkish Empire. The fact that some of those rulers were not purely ethnic Turks (after all who is a “purely ethnic” Turk? Seljuk? Mongol?) does not shrink the stigma of genocide perpetrators that modern-day Turkish government obstinately refuses to wash off. Even if some top CUP members were crypto-Jews and Freemasons, as it appears they were, who were hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of mass murderers, executioners, generals, local administrators, soldiers, gendarmes, the Chettes, mutilators, rapists, looters, thieves, and settlers in the course of the Armenian Genocide in 1915-1923? Were they not ethnic Turks?
Murat,
You mean Ittihadists should have sent telegraph wires on their decision to eliminate the Armenian race throughout the world? Or maybe the descendants of the eliminated race might know better as to what had happened to Western Armenians in 1915-1923? Kindly explain why would descendents of the Armenian race be “here and there and everywhere” if their ancestral homeland for millennia has been the Armenian Plateau (all eastern parts of modern-day Turkey)? Also explain what could have possibly happen to roughly 2 million Ottoman citizens of Armenian descent, since only 60,000 now reside in modern-day Turkey?
“Turks have had to face many facts regarding their history… This topic is only one of them.” This topic (the Armenian Genocide) is the most haunting of them, because Armenians were subjected to the most barbarian, cruel race annihilation by the Ottoman Turks. Other topics, indeed, are the elimination of other indigenous Christian peoples of Asia Minor: the Greeks and the Assyrians. The times when Turks could have faced many ugly facts regarding their history have passed. Now is the time for paying for the crimes.
Would be interested to learn more about a new, hitherto unexplored, page in history of the mankind introduced by Murat about some “war”(?!) that the Armenians waged against the Ottoman Empire. Also kindly explain if interethnic, intercommunal “infighting and killings” that was widespread in the Ottoman Empire could be regarded as adequate to the deliberate, state-sponsored mass annihilation and forced deportation of a particular ethnic, national, racial, and religious group.
Survivor and witness accounts, CUP leaders’ announcements, official correspondence of the foreign diplomats and missionaries, Turkish Martial tribunals’ verdicts, tons of thoroughly researched material by historians, international lawyers, genocide scholars, and resolutions of dozens of foreign parliaments and professional associations, advocacy and human rights groups, and Nobel Prize laureates about the fact of genocide of Armenians by the Turks are not “wishful thinking.” Wishful thinking is to believe that the murderer state can eventually get away with murder…