On Oct. 1, Turkish sources reported that hundreds of Turkish nationalists held Friday prayers–namaz–at the Holy Virgin Cathedral in Ani.
Devlet Bahceli, the head of the conservative Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), along with other party heads, prayed in the front row of a crowd inside the cathedral.
Bahceli reportedly traveled to Ani with hundreds of supporters carrying Turkish flags and chanting “Allahu Akbar” (God is great).
Earlier this week, the Kars branch of the MHP had filed an application requesting permission for the prayer gathering; and on Sept. 30, it was reported that Turkish authorities had decided to allow the prayers.
The leader of the MHP, Devlet Bahceli, said the Friday prayers at the Ani Cathedral were in protest of the Sept. 19 Divine Liturgy held at Akhtamar’s Sourp Khatch Church.
Meanwhile the MHP reportedly said that the Friday prayers at Ani were in the footsteps of the Seljuk conqueror Alp Arslan, who upon invading Ani in 1064 removed the cross from atop its cathedral and said Friday prayers there.
During a news conference today, Hayk Demoyan, the director of the Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute, said “To gain political dividends, Turkish leadership uses the religion and cultural heritage of other nations. Namaz on ruins of Ani shows the ugly face of Turkish nationalism… Allowing this namaz, the Turkish authorities involve Allah into their anti-Armenian campaign.”
Despite reports that quoted the Turkish Minister of Culture and Tourism Ertugrul Gunay as having said that the act of collective prayer “can be anti-constitutional. While Bahceli personally could offer namaz in a clean place,” permission was granted for Bahceli and 40 party heads to carry out their prayers.
Earlier in the week, Turkish newspapers reported that the nationalist MHP is preparing for the 2011 parliamentary election campaign; and that Bahceli has said his party was planning to launch the campaign on Oct. 1, when members of the party begin touring the country.
The controversial Friday prayers at the Ani cathedral are the first stop on the MHP’s parliamentary election campaign tour.
On Sept. 30, Azerbaijan’s News.az said that the planned prayer service “may also involve religious people from Azerbaijan,” and that “several Azerbaijani TV channels have been invited to the action.”
The MHP is a far-right leaning political party, soaked in Turkish nationalism. In the 2007 legislative elections, the party won just over 14 percent of the vote and gained 71 parliamentary seats. After being banned by the government, the party was refounded in 1983 as the Conservative Party. The name was changed again in 1985 to the Nationalist Task Party, and back to its original and current name in 1992. Bahceli has been its leader since 1999.
According to historical sources, Ani’s Holy Virgin Cathedral is the work of the Armenian architect Trdat. Its construction began in 989 A.D., per order of the Armenian King Smbat II (977-89), and was completed in 1001 A.D. When the Seljuk Turks invaded Ani, they converted it into a mosque, and subsequently renamed it Fethiye Camisi (Victory Mosque). In 1124, it was returned to its Christian owners. However, in 1319, an earthquake caused the collapse of its dome, which might have caused the end to its formal use.
Nanore Barsoumian
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thank you MHP for showing the true face of turky,
all that we have to do is to burn this into the brains of the moronic portion of the EU leadership (the united kingdom, and more specifically england, comes to mind, yesteryears’ imperial losers, who by the way are the number one benefactors of the U.S. economy, hence their unwavering support to all the criminal activities carried out by our free, democratic, government, of the people by the people, for the people… the million dollar question is what people???) who condone turky’s membership to that so called civilized euro club, once they get in, overrun the EU zone…this is what they are going to do to the rest of the european churches, after-all, they have extensive practice descecrating armenian/greek/assyrian churches
The true face of Turkey. Can anyone imagine what the Turks would have done had an Armenian Christian group descended so low as to staging a prayer at a Turkish mosque?
Hye, and so the Turks and Azeris held religious services at Armenian Holy Virgin Cathedral in Ani on October 1st – in “retaliation’ for the September 19th religious services of the Armenians at the Holy Virgin Cathedral of Aghtamar. Both these events ‘permitted/controlled’ by Turkish leaderships. At Aghtamar the Turks ‘permitted’ the Armenians a ONE DAY/ONCE YEARLY use of Holy Virgin Cathedral – still DENYING the Armenian cross atop their museum – (on again/off again via Turkish agreement modes). The absolute need of the Turk leaderships to ‘retaliate’ thus Turks are ‘allowed’ to use Armenian Holy Virgin Cathedral in Ani – obviously without any limitations as to dates/times for their ‘rites’ for the “Turk Retaliation”! Turks have been defiling the Christian Armenian religious sites in irreligious ways – Turkish mode – unending.
How does a Turkey need a ‘retaliation’ – in any way or form – for the Aghtamar fiasco which was controlled, allowed, arranged and committed by themselves, Turks Too, Turks themselves selected both ‘rules’ of their fiascos, both back fired – and now Turks seek to ‘retaliate’ to save face? As usual, Turkeys are shooting themselved in their own foot – another Turkish ‘goof’ – their desperation and misdirected mentality – again, thus obvious ‘goofs’ – again, before all the world – Yet, Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation continues (1890s – 2010) which the Turks deny… Turks claim Muslims do not commit Genocides – but all the civilized nations of the world have read their history books, too have archives in all their nations – the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation exists! Manooshag
so, what’s new for the Turks? They are free to desecrate the Armenian religious edifices wherever, whenever at will. So the Turks, once again, made their noises, and will they do this regularly daily, weekly, monthly… at any of their so-called Museums – converted ancient architectural sites of the Armenians which the Turks have been using as stables and more… hence, Turks insult the Christian Armenian religion in all ways, all manners, thus getting their jollies. Not enough that the Turk ‘eliminated the Armenian’s nation, now they will ‘eliminate’ all the ancient and outstanding examples of the great architectures – allowing them to fall to ruins, allowing them to become Museums for tourists to visit – acclaim the greatness of the Turkish culture (stolen from lands, culture and wealths and properties Turks stole from those whom they slaughtered and fled a Turkey to escape the civilized nations – and unable to claim what was their own – ancient and advanced nation of Armenians of nearly 4,000 years!
this is flatly wrong…..an abomination!
we armenians need something like greece’s islands’ so we can shut down a border or some such and let turky’s true face show…..this exploitation of our cathedral is sickening beyond words….it is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Dear forum commentators,
Just half an hour ago the Euronews extensively reported above 2nd “Show”,rather act of the ultra nationalist turks with big fanfare at ANI,even some Seljuk Alp arslan soldiers dressed and armed as in those times…
Yet good news is that the reporter also mentioned the so far not “pleasant” relations between Armenians and turks,word Genocide was used as well…
Most importantly,I don´t know why they also showed a partial map of Western Armenia showing not only ANI, But circled KARS in same map,latter´s name also well shown on that portion of it . The reporter really went out of way-fist time ever, our Cause so clearly stated…..
Should we expect more….
Well, is what Armenia and Armenians doing to Moslems in Armenia any different? There are as much as 170K Armenians living in Turkey (of which, about 100K are illegal). Armenians have several churches in Istanbul, as well as others in other major cities in the country. How many Turks or Turkic people live in Armenia? There is one mosque in Armenia (specifically in Yerevan) which is always under surveillence by Armenian plain clothes police (many of those going in or out have their pictures taken and/or also are harrassed). With a 98% purity rate, how does Armenia justify their constant complaining about what goes on in other countries when they have so many problems of their own? The church in Ani hasn’t been used since the 1300’s (after the earthquake collapsed its dome and made it unsafe). You’re all just going to have to get used to the fact that you’re not always going get/have things your way! When this occurrs, take it like adults and stop your constant whinings!
Robert, I’m neither Armenian or Turkish, but had to comment. You keep saying the Armenians are “complaining” and you give your reasons why they shouldn’t. However, you failed to mention the genocide, or the fact that Turkey is on portions of real estate owned by Armenia. Turkey is also in possession of much of Armenia’s wealth — taken during the genocide. Don’t you think the Armenians have a right to “complain”?
This disgusting display of “retaliation” by the Turks show what a fractured and shameful society they are. I don’t think we should waste a great deal of time describing their hypocracy and shameful behavior. The rela question is how should we deal with this. Do we see this as an opportunity or only as another example of why Turkey should never be allowed in the EU.
It is very interesting that as a young Armenian-American the two churches I saw in book that my parents had was Soorp Khatch and the Holy Virgin cathedral. Now both of these images that helped form my impression of lost Western Armenia, have been in the public light. We should build a campaign that has the immediate goal of returning these treasures to the jurisdiction of the Armenian church. We need to be shrewd enough to turn a political ploy of “tolerance” by the Turks into a campaign that brings our interests in western Armenia into reality. If we hope to keep this dream alive, we need to give the new generation some real issues that connect them to this area. Our faith has always provided us the light of survival and hope for the future. Demanding
these properties will put the Turks in a very difficult position publically. Their internal divisions will be very visible, but we must lobby to connect this to their EU goal. Real religios freedom… our seminary… our churches and monasteries in the provinces and the ability travel freely for pilgrimages. In spite of this despicable display at Ani, we need to see the opportunity to act.
Robert,
Sorry, I have to ask. Are you dumb or you’re just playing dumb? Or racism, religious intolerance, and anti-Armenianness in you are so rampant that you just can’t stop spitting out venom? Or you’re on a paid mission here to criticize whatever pro-Armenian you may dig out? You act as if it were us, Armenians, who stole your homeland in the Mongolian steppe, raped your women, crashed you children’s heads against walls, buried and burnt human beings alive, starved them to death in sunny deserts, and now demand justice for what the world came to know as genocide. No, Robert, it were your grandfathers who did this and your state is going to pay the price for their sins.
One last thing. Armenia never was a historical homeland of Turks or Turkic people. Therefore it is idiotic to ask a question: “how many of them now live in Armenia?” Conversely, all eastern parts of Turkey have been the ancestral homeland of Armenia from which they’ve been wiped out in 1915 in the most inhuman ways. Holy Cross church and Ani are just a few of several thousands of cultural heritage edifices that you, Turks, have desecrated, allowed to denigrate into ruins, blew up, or transformed to mosques and sheepcots. This is your true face. Your state just can’t live in peace with other people, tolerate other religions, appreciate others’ cultural achievements. Because your nation-state building, and consequently your worldview and system of values, is still in the process. Your state still behaves itself as a descendant of earth-scorching Seljuks and Mongols from which your nation has originated. Even in terms of religion. Isn’t it a sin to stage a Muslim prayer at a Christian church? Didn’t prophet Mohammad urge all of you to respect People of the Book? What kind of Muslims are you after this?!
Where are all the Turks posting here: Istanbul, Teoman, Zeynep, Ahmet, Murat, Robert, who were attempting to mind-tilt Armenians to embrace Turks “with open hearts” or present us as racist and intolerant? Where is our own Turkophile Karekin? Why aren’t they thrusting out their little heads from their little bird-houses and comment on this outrageous act?
I don’t understand why are my sisters and brothers so angry. Isn’t it better for Turks to pray, then to kill? Yes, let the Azerbaijanis join them too and pray together daily, weekly, monthly… let them pray. At the end… so many lives will not be killed.
The link to Euronews’ coverage that Gaytzag referred to is here: http://www.euronews.net/2010/10/01/turk-nationalists-anger-armenians-over-prayer-service/
Kaloust — If you attempt to pray at a Turkish mosque standing on the lands that your nation occupied and emptied of the Turks, how do you think Turks would react? Isn’t it clear that Ani is an ancient Armenian cathedral that existed long before the world came to know who the Turks were. Isn’t it blasphemous from the religious perspective to stage a Muslim prayer at a holy Armenian land and in one of Armenian churches? Try to do the same at a Turkish mosque and see what happens to you… I knew Turks were brutal, oppressive, and intolerant, but I now learnt that they are also lousy Muslims. Could you imagine an Arab or an Iranian praying at one of the Armenian churches or cathedrals, even dysfunctional ones, in Beirut, Damascus, Cairo, Tehran, Amman, Baghdad, etc.?
Unfortunately nationalism cuts both ways. Though MHP is a hard core nationalistic party and takes it upon itself to wave the flag most vigorously, Bahceli had proven himself to a be very reasonable man occasionally in the past. This is nothing more than a desperate stunt for votes it seems. They are in dire straits.
My wish is for Ani to be placed in a World Heritage list, be developed and restored. If Turkey had normal relations with Armenia, so much could be done.
If this is the same Murat posting on these pages, I should like to commend you for, perhaps, the most balanced comment ever posted here. Very rare objective remark out of your generally Armenophobic comments.
It is a Turkish property. Are the Turks going to ask you what to do with it?
I can’t say I disagree with Murat’s last comment. The remaining churches should be protected under UNESCO and under supervision of the Armenian Patriarch.
Let’s see, in September the Turks let the Armenians celebrate a mass at Akhtamar and the world was let in on the trickery/propaganda of the event. But tit for tat, the Turks get their say and worship in an ancient Armenian church probably just to balance matters in their minds with no mention of this to the world. They’re letting you know what good guys they want to be but are conniving from the opposite side.
Those Turkish nationalist, who don’t know where is East or West and location of Mecca prayed “zigzag” for the faith of Turkishness, not for “Allah” in front of a false Mufti… all these show set up by nationalists in order to gain popularity among AKP followers.
Robert, you are not real Muslim otherwise you should use your “halal name” like Murat in this forum…did you join with your nationalist herd in that praying??
You should have known that we are surrounded with see of millions of Muslim brothers of yours and they are eager to wipe the remaining ancient Christians faith of that area.
Armenia can not promote Islamic faith, otherwise Kemalist like you will get the benefit of religion and invade next day with the help of Jihdists…you better learn how to pray to Allah first..
Sorry if I don´t mention names one by one.You people -all of you-have a God given right to comment as you wish.Understood.But get this straight please….what transpired is government authorized,rather directed.Thence well wishers,Armenophiles etc.,do not count here..they will carry on with their “softening up” process with hopes to enter EU.
We,contrary to what many think and declare,should not meddle in their relations with EU.THAT IS STRICTLY BETWEEN THEM.If we do,then “turkish “Khers” may retaliate and that upon us these Ermenis …again…hell let them go knock on EU door as much as they wish and ,even if do succeeed and enter…believe it or not it is to our advantgages…
best and
Hamahaigagani SIRO
As Murat states: ‘If Turkey had normal relations with Armenia, so much could be done.’ Agreed.
If Turkey truly wanted to accomplish such wortlhy goals it can open its border with Armenia. Don’t you think?
It is Turkey that closed the border. You do not challenge/isolate those you like, that in itself proves plenty.
I don’t care. I’m agnostic. They can prey their every day and it wouldn’t bother me.
Turan, it’s stolen property.
Turan, Armenian lands stolen by Turks who slaughtered, tortured, kidnapped, eliminated the Armenians from their lands of nearly 4,000 years. Armenians unable to return and claim their own homeland, their own properties, and the Armenian culture which Turks still claim as their own!. Today, too, BRAVE Turks still commit Genocides… fighter planes and chemical warfare BRAVE Turks today against the Kurds who seek freedom from years of tyranny by Turk leaderships.
Today, generations later the world sees/understands the Turks’ crimes of Genocides – unending. Why do you suppose it is not happening – Turkey entry into the EU – a nation which continues their Ottoman mentality of eliminating humans – committing still – Genocides in 2010! Too, your Genocides through all the centuries – 19th, 20th, and now in the 21st century.
Actually were not Turks perpetrating Genocides still today, 2010, the cycle of Genocides shall have been ended and the Turk shall have been made to face justice against their Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation.
Turk’s reparations due and owing to the Armenian nation for all lives and lands stolen. Turks who stole what the ancient advanced nation of the Armenian culture owned thus enriched themselves upon slaughtered lives, properties and more. – Too, that which is inscribed in all the history books of all the civilized nations of the world – but is OMITTED by Turkish leaderships in their history books – Turl’s teach instead a policy to hate the Armenians – hate the VICTIMS of the Turkish Genocides. Turk leaderships are lying even to their own Turkish citizens the truths about Turkish history. A history known to all civilized nations of the world… the centuries a Turkey used the mode of Genocides to lie, to steal… mis-educate their citizens by lying of their own Turk history. Manooshag
Turan,
You mean your ancestors built the church in the 9th century when Turks were non-existent on Earth and it’s their property rightfully? Or your Seljuk forefathers invaded the area from Mongolian steppe in 11th century, conquered, murdered, and destroyed everything that sedentary people like Armenians have created for millennia on those lands? Or mass exterminating Armenians and stealing their lands and cultural heritage is something you admire? Is this a normal human behavior to you?
Yes, stop whining. Like Akhtamar, doing namaz at Ani cathedral has only drawn MORE attention to the facts of thousands of years of Armenian history, architectural genius and culture in that part of Turkey, not less. This was not a bad thing. Namaz is a good thing. At least the world is seeing that they did this at an ancient, historic ARMENIAN cathedral. Of similar age, the beautiful Kars cathedral has been a mosque for many years, and is in much better condition as a result. Let’s face it, these are beautiful, unique buildings showcase not only Armenian technical expertise, but also point to those who built every early Seljuk structure, because as everyone knows, architecture was not a skill the Seljuks had at all. They may have conquered, but that’s all. If they wanted monuments, they had to hire the locals who had a long history (as in, thousands of years worth) of building perts, bridges and cities, and then shifted to working for their new patrons. Now the links between those early Armenian architects and stonemasons can be discussed and exposed in an honest way, and may lead to even more. They’ve unknowingly opened the Pandora’s box of Armenian history in Anatolia…abrees to them. Shad shenoragal enk. They did something that generations of Armenians and scholars have tried to do, but couldn’t. For once, Turkish ultranationalists did something for us and the joke is really on them. Mashallah.
This act is a good example as to how stupid,idiot bankrupt politicians make moves which only works for their re-election & change the image of their country & try to change the course events & probably history.
“The prayers at the site were made possible by authorization from the Culture Ministry”…this means the government!Makes me laugh ‘Culture Ministry’.What culture?This is like Armenia having ‘Marine Ministry’
Karekin – It’s not about our “whining,” it’s about you growing balls to denounce an ugly Turkish act and address Turks not do lecturing to Armenians. Never on these pages did you respond to any Turkish commentator or commented on his or her remark. A question by Murat addressed to you still awaits you on “Who Won Akhtamar Propaganda War: Armenians or Turks?” You never responded to it. You find it easier to try to mind-tilt your co-nationals rather than denounce Turks and their dishonest, sly policies at denying genocide, distorting the truth, and staging petty PR stunts. It’s repugnant. The Muslim prayer at Christian Ani was staged based on permission from the Turkish government. Why aren’t you denouncing this outrageous anti-Armenian act on our own property? Go try and pray at a Turkish mosque (although I know you won’t since you’re an anti-Christ). I should like to see what will happen to you. Your Turkophile orientation won’t salvage you, believe me…
Karekin, you are way off the mark on this one. We gained nothing from this act accept confirmation of the knowledge that the nationalists in Turkey want to turkify every last vestige of Armenian culture and will not tolerate any conciliation to Armenians. Show me one reference in the media where we gained any positive recognition out of this. This is flagrant, in your face “crass anti-armenianism,” staged to garner votes from conservative nationalists. Their spokesman even said that this was a protest against the liturgy in Akhtamar on September 19. Aren’t these people who danced when Hrant got shot?
Those Friday Prayers won’t happen so frequently, as this Catedral and Ani the city itself are in the middle of nothing. It is way far away from the nearest City Kars.
I don’t support the idea of holding services at places like this, neither by Christians nor by Moslems. Such places should be converted to the museums and restored carefully to their original physical state. Those who want to pray to the God, can do it anywhere other than historical places and buildings. Where the religion is, there the trouble is.
By your reasoning Resoman, the Ulu Cami in Istanbul being a historical building should also become a museum and no namaz/Moslem praying allowed. The same would hold true for Mecca and Medina, the Great Mosque and the Qaaba, which all being historical buildings should be converted into museums and praying/namaz forbidden there. How absurd your reasoning. Perhaps you believe in a double standard, that all rights and privileges should be guaranteed to Moslems, and denied outright to Christians/Infidels/Ghiavours. That shows the utter hypocrisy and inhumanity of your religious beliefs and intolerance.
Hotheaded and moronic are two good descriptions of these Turkish men.
Upset that, in their view, their government doled out a tiny morsel of humanity to Armenians, they decided to complain about it by underscoring two points nationalists such as themselves usually avoid: the grandeur of Armenian civilization, and the theft of Armenian physical culture and buildings by the ignorant murderers and their loyal offspring. Thanks for the photo op, dudes.
They also make a mockery of prayer, by publicly seeking God as a gesture of racial and political anger towards the government, or Armenians, or something. Reminiscent of Klansmen who invoke Jesus as Jew-killer numero uno, and champion of the superior White Race, even if His Klan buddies live in trailers and guzzle White Lightning.
To women, youth, and non-Turks, none of whom are in the picture, they also convey the idea that to be a nationalist is to be an elderly male in a suit, or nearly so.
A response from Resoman is in the best Turkish tradition: anything non-Turkish, non-Muslim should be either (a)intentionally destroyed, as thousands of Armenian Christina edifices in Western Armenia, or (b)transformed into mosques or sheepfolds as the world can see in the same Armenian provinces, or (c) blasphemously transformed into “museums” that don’t even carry any annotation inside them as to why it is a museum, what it represents, who built the structure, why it is dysfunctional as a house of worship, and, most importantly what happened to worshipers and parishioners, as well as the whole religious, ethnic, and racial group living in their ancestral homeland?
A typically Turkish response from a typical Turk. Resoman, for YOU they are in the middle of nothing, for Armenians they are in the HEART of our ancestral homeland, with Ani representing of the capitals of ancient Armenia. While I can understand why you don’t support the idea of holding Muslim services at Christian places like this, I’m baffled as to why shouldn’t Christian Armenian hold services in a Christian cathedral, can you explain? Moreover, why shouldn’t they do it in a cathedral that THEY built and that belongs to THEM as THEIR cultural heritage?!
I agree that those who want to pray to the God can do it anywhere other than historical places and buildings, but Ani or Akhtamar were not built as historical places and buildings, they were originally built as HOUSES OF WORSHIP.
And, please, don’t give us the superficial rhetoric “Where the religion is, there the trouble is.” Believe me we, Armenians, experienced this back in 1915-1923 from your forefathers. So, keep this rhetoric for your nation, please. You are champions of massacring non-Muslims whom you call gavurs, although your prophet urged you to respect People of the Book.
What chutzpah…!
Am I correct in assuming that some of the incorrigible defeatists among us (you know who you are) also consider the Armenian media’s reporting of this blasphemous act as another attempt by our media to supposedly spread “anti-Turkish propaganda”? Are these reported facts by our journalists just another figment of our imagination that “serve no other purpose but to incite intolerance and hatred” as well? Or are they telling pieces of evidence that shed light on the sinister machinations of a government eager to add insult to premeditated murder.
Put some thought into thinking about what Armenians received in return for graciously embracing Turkey’s insult in converting our Church into a “museum”. Think about what we gained in light of what has been illegally usurped from our people. Think about the material loss, our assets, thousands of churches, khatchkars, the way our people were herded and extinguished into primitive gas chambers, the breadth of our patience and tolerance over the years in the face of Turkish hatred, intolerance and denial, the number of decades we Armenians forgave and forgot in obedient silence awaiting for the day that we would be treated like human beings instead of ‘gavoors’. Think about it. And then think about how we are mocked today by the descendants of that same intolerant institution whose mindset about our history, our culture and our survival has not changed. I would love to witness Karekin try and explain to one of his family’s genocide survivors that Turkey’s conversion of our Church into a museum and their prayer sessions in our Church is “a good thing”. Personally, I would expect a reaction no less than a slap to the face followed by a “keetet peranet meg chenem…gorsevir!”
Karekin, you really are out to lunch man. Wow!
Let invaders pray
Where ever they like
But the name will stay
As Ani the Cathedral.
Build by architect Tertd
1000 years… past .
If it’s converted to a museum
It will remain Ani ‘s Cathedral.
Let us innovate
This famous place
As it was build by Armenian Hands
Before Seljuk’s arrived.
We can pray in any space
But our cathedral
Was signed by our names
As it was still marked by our DNAs.
Said… that Ani Cathedral
Was the first cathedral
And the base
For All Gothic Cathedrals.
Architect Tertd (Dertad)
And his clever mind
Still marked in that place
No one can wipe out.
So let slayers pray
Till God’s voice will chant,
“This is not your place
Leave….Go out.”
(c) Sylva-MD-Poetry
Oh sweet Jesus and our own beloved St Gregory—the next time these blasphemous Turks try to pray in OUR Ani cathedral, do you think you could let a few stones from the dome come crashing down on their heads? Not too many so as to permanently damage the structure, but just a few so they know enough to stay away! Oh and while you’re at it, could you manage to drop a couple of smaller ones on Robert and Karekin’s heads too? Perhaps it might knock some sense in them.
Thank you Lord. Thank you St Gregory.
I totally agree with Murat(for once) & Resoman that the Ani cathedral has to be renovated & this is what the Turkish culture ministry should do.This opportunity should be used to save our valuable gem for not only our future generations (I know one day if not I my children will go back to their mothrland & roots) but for the whole of humanity.
God isn’t great, but Ani is (and is actually, fortunately extant).
thank you mike mirakian
i really needed to have a good laugh, after reading some of the disturbing comments, not just regarding this story but also the akh-thamara fiasco…
sirt@s paghetsutsir, shat shnorhakaluthyun,
qo nman hayer@ bazmanan, isk mnatsord davadgannerun, arajarkum em vor, irents turk yeghbaynerun het, dzerq, dzerqi brnats, aghothqi gnan surb astvatzatzin mayr tadgarin koghqin… husalov vor mi qani qar al ina irents glkherun…
Hagop, God IS great and our Lord Jesus is the Savior. Otherwise, nothing would have left of the Armenian nation by now. One day you or your children will witness how He restores justice for us in His grace. Have faith and do not bespit the name of God!
Few of you seem to realize that all of your denoucinations, demands, whining and crying have NOT produced the results you want! When will you learn? These Turkish nationalists did us all a favor… because the news reports have made it very clear that their event took place in an ‘ancient Armenian cathedral‘, or an ‘Armenian holy site‘, etc. Face up to the fact that when Armenians make noise, nobody listens…when ultranationalists pray in an ancient Armenian-built structure, it gets worldwide coverage. You can’t buy PR like that, folks…no matter how much money you spend. After decades of cover-up and denial that Armenians ever existed there, every news outlet on the planet has made it clear that these monuments were Armenian! Now, you may not like what the nationalists did, but every cloud has a silver lining….learn to find it, please, learn to recognize a gift when you see it.
edward sarafian
Well guys, you’ve failed in understanding my words in my earlier post above, although it is very simple comment.
I am writing here again;
NOR CHRISTIANS NEITHER MOSLEMS.
Hope this time you would understand.
Historical buildings should remain as museums, including churches, mosques, temples whatever they are. Just keep the old nice ones up as museums for next generations, and do not build new ones which all look very ugly concrete buildings.
Armenia should also renovate the old churches in Armenia as well. I have seen many churches in really poor condition in Armenia. Blaming others is easy part, but doing what you should do is the difficult one.
arm_k: Thanks, but no thanks.
Karekin, you mean all of our denunciations, demands, “whining” and “crying” are unjustified? Are they baseless? Has or has not the Ottoman Armenian population subjected to physical and cultural genocide? What would a victim do if not denounce and demand? Were Jews different in their demands? Is any other victim of genocide different? Our demand for justice has produced very real results, and you’re either blind to see them or, as all of came to believe, just overly Turkophillic. The Cause is very much alive despite the fact that four generations have passed from the date of genocide. The world governments continue to admit the Turkish atrocitied against Armenians constitute genocide as defined by the 1948 Genocide Convention. International organizations do the same. The majority of historians, genocide scholars, and international lawyers, some Turkish amongst them, do the same. Professional associations, such as the International Association of Genocide Scholars, do the same. Human rights and advocacy groups, even the Turkish ones, do the same. Nobel Prize laureates, even the Turkish ones, do the same. Virtually all presidential candidates of the US do the same. Forty-four state legislatures of the US and many provincial governments in other countries do the same. Are these not the results of our struggle to restore justice for Armenians. Have they fallen upon us as manna from Heaven or Armenians might have contributed in these achievements? Don’t you think?
Karekin, would you please stop referring to Armenians as ‘whining’ when they express their feelings of frustration over the fact that Turkey still hasn’t acknowledged guilt and made reparations. I find it very disrespectful of you. You can make your point without belittling others who think differently than you. In a previous conversation we had, you descended into this constant refrain about angry and whining Armenians and it essentially killed the dialogue (that and your disrespectful quips about religion and Christ). Please find a better way to get your thoughts across. You may have a point, but those you want to reach are not going to keep an open-mind when you insult them.
This friday prayer was not an action; it was a reaction. Every transition has its own side effects, and we just experienced one.
Teylerian;
I’m here. I never assert that every turk has a symphathy towards armenia or armenians. It is obvious that many turks view armenians as a treat. I don’t think what i wrote previously in this site contradicts with this news.
Yes, Boyajian, exactly. And there’s another ugly trait that Karekin has. Not once did he respond to or denounced a comment from Turks, many of whom are consumed with sheer hatred, racism, and Armenophobia on these pages. All his remarks, without a single exception, are directed at Armenians. Isn’t this thought-provoking? And, mind you: never did he apologize for his quip about Jesus Christ. Just imagine what hysteria he’d wind up if any Armenian descended as low as to mutter anything remotely repulsive for prophet Mohammad. Had you been in Armenia, you’d be given a good whopping, Karekin. Maybe knowing this well you prefer traveling to your beloved Turkish homeland…
Well, Resoman, I think it is you who failed to understand our responses. Look up for mine above. It was a very simple and self-explanatory response. “NOR CHRISTIANS NEITHER MOSLEMS” formula won’t work. Why “no Muslims” at a Christian site, I can understand. But why “no Christians” at a site that was built, maintained, and represents their own heritage, I don’t. Again, Akhtamar or Ani, or thousands of other Armenian religious edifices, were not meant to be “historical buildings.” Up until 1915, the year of genocide, they functioned as houses of worship. Am I not making myself understood? Also, Resoman, go make a case that your mosques function as museums, just like your government transforms Christian churches into museums, or even worse, mosques and sheepfolds. I should like to see what happens to you… Armenia should also renovate its churches, I agree. But the nation has more pressing issues on the agenda, threats from enemy-states like Turkey and Azerbaijan to its national security being the most vital. Besides, churches in poor condition in Armenia are a result of 70+ years of atheist Soviet regime, but not cultural genocide of Christian edifices throughout Armenian vilayets. The two are not in the same league as, I hope, you’ll come to understand…
Not strictly for turks here on this forum(indeed my compatriotsto be reminded as well) that the North African Moors(arabs)who had Conquered All of Spain and Southwetsern tip ofFrance as well and ruled thereat for exactly same time frame as the Seljuk turks (ottomans) in Western Armenia,BUILT ARCHITECHTURAL MARVELS-especially in Southeren Spain-Cordoba, Granada,the famous ALHAMBRA etc., that are very well conserved by the Spanish,though the conquerers ,the Caliphateswerethrown out of Iberian Peninsula,after the said six hundred years rule..
Contrary to what the seljuk turks have SO FAR DONE..
But now they have decided OTHERWISE …go figure out why?
Easy to conjecture.As I wrote above, to gain entry into EU.Well ,even though they have somehow “Despertado” means suddenly wake up…it is good for us Armenians.At the very least they will keep these churhces Cathedrals in good form until some day the owners will come back to them and take over.History has shown ,like just narrated above re the Moorish khaliphates rule over Spain that eventually went under.Now indeed they have somehow come back-but this over as workers seeking jobs in Spain.Who knows maybe in not too far future Greater Armenia will need more working hands and the turks who went far to Westeurope for work,this over will go to neighbouring Armenia(integral one)toearn their bread. However,right now their government is well fed well bred and well armed by uncle Sammy and will not allow this to happen..but Armenians have a long history of being over patient…
best to all,yes to Murat and Rob as well…
Hama Haigagani SIRO
G.P.
Karo is right, Karekin. Armenian demands and assertions for justice have produced results as he pointed out. It also bugs the Turks precisely because it is getting results. So even though we may not win friends among some Turks, other open minded Turks have seen the light and have begun to understand what all the ‘whining’ is about. Some even held April 24th commemorations at Haydarpasha(sp?) this year. You may curse the noise coming from the squeaky wheel, but that’s the one that gets the grease, no?
Boyajian,
It is important that you understand that these positive developments are soleley driven by the internal dynamics of the Turkish society. There is economic liberalization, hand in hand with political liberalization and there is new confidence in the country, thus it is easier to topple taboos and tolerate differences. Which is what is happening.
For Turkey to move further, it needs internal peace and stability as well as peace and stability around it. This is not just a slogan.
Unfortunately, the Armenian nationalism, terrorism, hate mongering, war mongering and blatant racism as displayed and examplified on these pages have only retarded and slowed down all positive developments.
Turkish governments had to take great political risks for even the smallest steps in the face of open Armenian hostilities. Not only Armenia and especially diaspora make it their duty to attack Turkey and Turks on any platform, they have made their country a forward base for a military super power which is not known for its peaceful ways.
Murat, the quickest way to take the steam out of Armenian ‘hate-mongering’ is for Turkey to acknowledge the history between us and say sorry. As you point out, internal dynamics have played a major role in the positive changes in Turkey. Doesn’t it make more sense for you to contribute to these positive internal dynamics instead of spreading the Armenian intolerance you bring to these pages? There are needlessly offensive comments made by Turkish contributors to this forum on a regular basis which you never challenge. Your latest comments were very civil and though I don’t agree with your characterization of Armenians, I feel encouraged to dialogue and pursue some mutual understanding.
I wonder if instead of reflexively rejecting the Armenian point of view, you have ever tried to put yourself in Armenian shoes instead.
Also Murat, if Armenia has made itself a ‘forward base’ than Turkey has itself to blame for contributing to the insecurity that Armenia feels in the region.
well, murat,
all the hostilities will end when your peace loving forward moving, of european ancestry, (not central asian) government would return everything that was confiscated from the armenians, (and that includes, forcefully turkified/islamized armenians, our ancestral lands in eastern anatolia, and other valuables) and then we can all hold hands, run to the hills and pick lilacs…
do you think your government (for whatever reason or influenced and guided by whatever evil criminal groups) can commit a gross crime against humanity…specially the armenians and by making some insignificant so called good will gesture can stop the still bleeding wound of my people
not only did they do us wrong, the so called turkish powers, not the puppets in public view, have been screwing you, the turkish people just as well,
so instead of repeating the propagandist points of views, why don’t you wake up and enlighten your own people (the real turks by blood, not the ones pretending to be for personal gains) and deliver them out of the oppression they’re under, and may then we can speak freely and try to heal the wound
believe it or not we have a common enemy…whose happy days are numbered
Karo and others…my essential point seems to have been overlooked, if not smothered under a barrage of nasty refrains. And that point is that while it may feel good to have governments around the world offer some recognition of the genocide (most often, they’re governments that had nothing to do with it), it does not change the situation on the ground – that Armenians need to resolve this w/ Turks and Turkey by talking with them intelligently, not by hurling an endless screed of anti-Turkish insults every chance they get. Just look at what is written here…it’s shameful on many levels. You need to realize that changes in Turkish society are not coming from you or from Armenian actions anywhere in the world. It is coming from within because of changes at the top of THEIR society, THEIR government. Just as with individuals, where change can only come about if the person wants to change, it is the same for a society. But, with your comments, you are not giving anyone an incentive to change. You also need to realize that Armenians are not the top issue for most Turks…far from it. They have bigger fish to fry. I do understand this tendency to send messages to people via third parties…it’s a very Armenian thing to do, I’m sure it’s happened in your own families, but nothing can replace a face to face dialogue. Moreover, I am not disuputing the genocide and never have…far from it…yet some jump to that erroneous conclusion in an effort to belittle what I’ve suggested.
gayzag — With all due respect, but it is my firm conviction that Turkey will never be in the EU. I don’t think Europeans will take a suicidal decision to alllow Turkey, as the world knows it, march in civilized Europe.
Murat,
You are a lost cause. I bet you consider yourself an intellectual, but you’re just overly Armenophobic and so blinded by standard Turkish propagandistic crap that even all our comments in AW are seen by you as “nationalism, terrorism, hate mongering, war mongering and blatant racism”. So many of us tried to explain that nationalism has many connotations and for us it means patriotism and devotion to the interests or culture of our nation. We also tried to explain that our hate, or rightful indignation rather, is not just sitting on the clouds by itself but is based on the historical fact of near-annihilation of almost entire Armenian population by your predecessors. It’s not directed at ordinary Turks but at your denialist, unrepentant state. As for Armenian “terrorism” and “racism”, you just made these up to strengthen your argument, but, in fact, made it laughable. Equally laughable is your statement about “open Armenian hostilities.” Murat, have decency, if such a notion is at all applicable to the Turks. Your governments chose not to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia, closed the border with the Republic, imposed economic blockade, continue to support a third side (Azerbaijan) that has no relation whatsoever to the bilateral Turkish-Armenian relations, Turgut Ozal even went so far in early 1990s as to threaten to bomb Armenia, and you dare to use a phrase “open Armenian hostilities”? How multi-faced, duplicitous, and utterly cynical you Turks should be to state such a nonsense? Enumerate “open hostilities” on the part of Armenians, let’s go over them one by one. Our “attacks,” as you say, but “demand for justice” as we, Armenians, formulate it, are not baseless, Murat. We are a victim nation that for 95 years demands recognition of heinous crime committed by your murderer-state. Put yourself in our place, if you can, and things will clear up for you. The problem is that you can’t, because you’re a Turk brainwashed by your state propaganda and history distortion taught at schools. By definition, no matter what, you’ll be defending your nation even if deep inside, on an individual level, you may feel that the other side is right. As for “making our country a forward base for a military super power which is not known for its peaceful ways,” no military super power in the world is known for its peaceful ways, Murat, and Russia is not an exception. When Ottoman Turks conquered and enslaved ancient indigenous peoples inhabiting Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Middle East, your empire too didn’t act in peaceful ways. It’s all about national interest. At the moment Russia is the sole protector of Armenia against Turkish and Azeri threats against Armenia’s national security and Turkish sick aspirations for greater role in the broader region. What it means for the region we, Armenians, know firsthand. At the down of the 20th century pan-Turanic, pan-Islamic aspirations of the CUP megalomaniacs have resulted in the annihilation of almost entire Western Armenian race and civilization. I can understand that for Turkey to move forward it needs to have peace and stability around it. But, Murat, the world doesn’t revolve around Turkey: for any country to move forward it needs to have peace and stability around it. Armenians see a possibility for both Turkey and Armenia to be able to move forward in Turkey’s recognition of its crime against one of her neighbors, your repentance and apology to us.
Karekin – You disgraced yourself on these pages and I came to believe you’re an incurable case. Go preachify your “face-to-face” dialogue to unrepentant Turks now, OK? You did an exhaustingly heavy preachifying on Armenians, could you do some in Turkish forums for a change? Please?
P.S. Almost 30 governments around the world did not offer “some” recognition of the genocide. Their resolutions unmistakably state that their respective nations recognize mass murders of Ottoman Armenians as genocide. Among these governments are those that had much to do with the genocide: Germany that admitted the plight of Armenians, but just avoided to use the term “genocide because of the country’s complicity in it; Russia had much to do with how the events developed in some Armenian vilayets; Austria and France that were parties to WWI had much to do with it, too. The U.S. and the UK are next.
Murat,
I thought YOU, a Turk, of all people would be the last one to comment on whether others’ ways are peaceful or non-peaceful. Was your comment a joke?
We all know very well that the presence of the military superpower does not fit well with your pan Turanic aspirations. But what makes you think that Armenians are obliged to help you with such an agenda? You may dream wild but it’s time for you to finally get the fact that the Ottoman Empire is dead and is not making a comeback in any new form.
We would love to be good neighbors with Turkey and the Turkish nation but you have a long way to come forward yet. And it all has been explained to you more than one hundred times already.
Murat, I agree with arm-K who said it very well, although I’m not going to say you are a lost cause. I believe in the power of truth and keep hoping…
But on the other hand, the truth is I sometimes wonder if you and others, including Karekin, are real individuals or a committee of pro-Turkish propagandists who assume personalities on this website designed to ‘take the wind out of the sails’ of Armenians striving for justice. Not satisfied to trust things to Armenian assimilation and battle fatigue, you try to push Armenian buttons of shame, self-blame and doubt. Anything to help Turkey avoid paying the piper.
“Armenians are hate-mongering, war-mongering, terrorist, racists,” is a provocative insult which does nothing to promote understanding and peace between our nations. Armenians are not the aggressors in this scenario, but the fed up and righteously indignant victims of Turkish arrogance on the world stage. If you and your buddies were sincerely interested in the well-being of individual Turks, you would promote human rights for all citizens and governmental responsibility to make reparations to those who it has harmed.
The sad thing is that although, Turkish and Armenian people could really benefit from neighborly relations based on a clean slate, a sincere apology and a recognition of mutual interests, you and ‘the committee’ seem to have other motives.
Arm_k said ,
“Armenia should also renovate its churches, I agree. But the nation has more pressing issues on the agenda, threats from enemy-states like Turkey and Azerbaijan to its national security being the most vital.”
Is this a serious excuse do you think, not to do any renovation on historical buildings and churches. The money required to renovate these structures goes into the pockets of your politicians and bureaucrats. Armenia has one of the most corrupt governmental system.
Do you really think that Turkey would attack Armenia? Turkey should really open the border so you could see the world and understand things better.
Amen Karo jan, Arm_K jan, Hayrenaser jan, Boyajian jan, and the rest of my friends.. apreq.. yes dzer tsavt tanem.. you speak from my heart…..
Karekin- you are absolutely lost cause … like Boyajian said.. if you have a message, no matter how productive it is, you won’t succeed because you keep putting Armenians down by calling our actions childish, vayreni, whinning.. come up with a better way to portray your message.. and stop giving us strokes with your stupid comments….
God Bless
Gayane
Hey Gayane, please – get a grip. I’m not ‘putting Armenians down’, I’m putting down an approach and a strategy that clearly has not been working. I can criticize what I see and read here if it’s so obviously deficient as to be laughable. It’s largely the same old record of pleas and demands that I’ve heard all my life that have amounted to nothing positive. Time to move on or at least into a new direction, unless you think the status quo is preferable. I think we may agree on the ultimate goals (or maybe not), but disagree on how to get there. I believe in being pragmatic, having dialogue and respect for those you may not agree with, and even with those you see as ‘enemies’. Talking w/ the other side is the best way to move forward. I’m not ‘in denial’ of anything and am very aware that you have a tough time understanding anyone who doesn’t agree w/ you 1000%, but that doesn’t bother me, as other views always need to be heard. There is not just one way to get from point A to point B, despite what you may say.
Resoman….
You should not talk about an excuse.. Turkish govt is the golden child of having excuses…having an excuse for everything they do and have done..
You yourself are an excuse ..so get off your hight horse..
one more thing: Our govt may be corrupt.. .. no govt is 100% clean or just.. but they have a good reason.. they are idiots.. they can’t help it…however, who gave you the right to compare a govt that can’t help but try to survive in such horrible conditions to a govt who is thriving on blood money that was stolen from the same govt who is suffering.. your govt is considered one of the most ferocious, manipulative and denialist govt…… what is your govt excuse???
Resoman said: “Do you really think that Turkey would attack Armenia? Turkey should really open the border so you could see the world and understand things better.”
Why, Resoman, Turks never attacked Armenians? Is this what they’re teaching you at schools?
A nation that’s seen massacres of up to 300,000 Armenians under Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid and then the first genocide of the 20th century when 1.5 million Armenians perished and hundreds of thousands forcibly expelled and then denial to admit the guilt for committing genocide should have solid grounds to think so. A new Republic, one-third of what was once historical Armenia that’s now under the Turkish occupation, faces the reality of Turkey’s refusal to establish diplomatic relations, a continuing economic blockade imposed by Ankara, the only closed border in Europe as a result of Turkish reluctance to open it, and a full-scale support to Azerbaijan, a third country that has nothing to do with bilateral Turkish-Armenian relations.
If you think all of the above are not compelling reasons for us to think that Turkey represents a threat to Armenia, then you’d need to go back to college and take Political Science 101 and National Security courses to educate yourself.
Hey is for horses Karekin.. but then again, why am i surprised? you think we are vayreni.. so you think addressing us with vayreni manner is appropriate right?..how old are you Karekin?????
Here is an advice for youu: GO TALK AND PREACH DIRECTLY TO TURKS.. if you are soooooooooooo convinced that what we, the OTHER ARMENIANS do not know how to accomplish tasks/goals.. WHY ARE YOU HERE? Go do your thing and let us know how it goes.. i have asked you gazillion times about what have you done to accomplish this mutual and rainbow discussions but you could not give us one specific example..knowing how the Turkish govt is, then why dont YOU start the process and let us decide how successful you are.. until then, don’t come here and stand high and mighty and put us down with your stupid comments… haskatsar? I am not slow or stupid Karekin…You don’t have to agree with me nor do i have to agree with you, but you have no right to call me or my people vayreni, whinners, this and that..it is unfortunate that we have our own who tries to belittle our actions, then who needs an enemy.. Get a life Karekin..really.. arten qezanits hoqnel em..
Unless you learn how to approach matters in a better way, don’t expect people to listen to you…
have a nice day..
Well said Arm_K jan…
Resoman, Murat and their friends they all need to go back to school and learn the history from scratch.. they may need to cleanse their brain from all the years of brainwashing in order to truly understand and see what has happened..but that is a long road to take.. however, i have hope…
Gayane, you seem to once again misinterpret and personalize my message because you don’t like it. I’m very sorry about that, but there are plenty of Armenians who realize that your angry, controlling message is not for them, primarily because after 90 years of it, they’ve seen that it does not work. You would think that after such a long time preaching that message, that you’d be happy, see some satisfaction from all the positive results, but that’s just not the case. Sadly, but predictably, you’re angry at everyone except yourself and your message. I’m not angry w/ all Armenians, just with those who refuse to change or even to consider another course of action. I think the government of Armenia realizes that it needs to adopt a different tact with Turkey and ultimately, it will benefit from this. Of course, it is a difficult balancing act, with many competing forces at play, but if you really care about Armenia, more than yourself, you’ll realize this must be done. People are leaving Armenia at an alarming rate. Doesn’t this concern you? If not, it should. It should concern you more than Akhtamar (which now has its cross), more than Ani and more than any other issue. A depopulated Armenia is a weakened Armenia, no matter how much bluster you put on these pages. Don’t forget that.
Gayane wrote;
“You yourself are an excuse ..so get off your hight horse..
one more thing: Our govt may be corrupt.. .. no govt is 100% clean or just.. but they have a good reason.. they are idiots.. they can’t help it…however, who gave you the right to compare a govt that can’t help but try to survive in such horrible conditions to a govt who is thriving on blood money that was stolen from the same govt who is suffering.. your govt is considered one of the most ferocious, manipulative and denialist govt…… what is your govt excuse???”
I am not here to defend the Turkish Government which I am very much against and I have never voted for any political party that was in power.
My comment was about the renovation of the churches in Armenia, somebody says they can’t renovate churches because the Armenian Government doesn’t have the money to do it. Than I am telling you where the money is; Search the pockets of your politicians, the money is in there. Is the Turkish Government any different? No, exactly the same as the Armenians’.
Arm_k said;
“Why, Resoman, Turks never attacked Armenians? Is this what they’re teaching you at schools?”
I didn’t say that the Turks have never attacked Armenia. I was talking about the today and future. Please read it again. What they teach at schools is no concern to me, I have my own brain and can read books and I do. I don’t know what they teach to you at your schools, that’s your business, not mine.
“Resoman, Murat and their friends they all need to go back to school and learn the history from scratch.. they may need to cleanse their brain from all the years of brainwashing in order to truly understand and see what has happened..but that is a long road to take.. however, i have hope…”
The above explanation to Arm_k also applies to this comment.
Resoman, be decent. It was I who replied to your initial comment on the need to renovate churches in Armenia proper. But I never said “they can’t renovate churches because the Armenian government doesn’t have the money to do it.” It’s the best Turkish tradition to twist words, distort history, find excuses for mass murder of human beings, isn’t it? Here’s what I said (scroll up to see with your own eyes): “Armenia should also renovate its churches, I agree. But the nation has more pressing issues on the agenda, threats from enemy-states like Turkey and Azerbaijan to its national security being the most vital.”
Further, “what they teach at schools is no concern to me.” Well, it should, because what they teach Turks at schools is brainwashing, a sheer distortion, a poisoning that they implant in your children’s brains, that’s why we have you and other Turks on these pages completely detached from reality, from sober assessment of history, from realization of the fact that your state is a fake because it’s founded on the blood of indigenous peoples that inhabited those lands for millennia, developed high civilizations, but were destroyed by your nomadic forefathers Seljuks and then by wiped out by your murderous forefathers the Ottoman Young Turks. If you were educated properly, you wouldn’t ask questions like “Do you really think that Turkey would attack Armenia?” YES, I do, because (1)we’ve seen your barbarity for centuries; and (2)a nation that refuses to establish diplomatic relations, keeps the border closed, and imposes blockade on another nation is a potential threat. Open any political science or security studies book and learn this ABC, if you will. Have they taught you or, since you said you had brains and can read books, do you know that in early 1990s the late Turkish president Turgut Ozal threatened to drop “a few bombs on the other side of the border,” because “the Armenians have not learned the lessons of 1915” (that is: genocide of Armenians committed by the Turks). What is it, based on books you have read and brains that you have developed, if not explicit threat of attack?
A nation that has not admitted its crime and apologized for it can attack because 95 years after committing the genocide of Armenians you’re still unrepentant; therefore, for us you’re still a threat.
BRAVO TO ARM_K….
May I add that aside from Turgut (g)Ozal´s statement…further ahead Mr. Ecevit,Prime Ministre of Turkey also stated something similar and I quote”We should enter Nakhijevan”..to which the RRRRRRussian General SHJAPOSHNIKOV replied,and I quote”Just you dare”….
As long as the Fascist turkish government continues its denialist stance towards the Genocide perpetrated on its previous “Ermeni” raya (Armenians) and does not make reparations properly, there should be not letting down of our guard and feel neighbourly with them. Time is ripe for beginning-fact is it has already slowly begun-DEMANDING, foremostly through our international attorneys “B L O O D M O N E Y ” from the turkish government at the International Court of Justice…
Other demands can then be pressed in.This is what they know quite well and are just trying to bargain through third parties with very small almost infinitisimle chips,being thrown in either by themselves-Akhtamar , is a case in point- and now talk ot another church like at Kars etc .
Well said Arm_K jan.. well said..
Resoman.. most politicians are corrupt.. that is no secret to anyone.. however your govt can never be compared to our govt on any other level… your govt is considered the ill man of Europe which speaks volumes.. therefore, dont’ worry about how corrupt our govt is and worry about how you are going to separate yourself from your govt’s history and how you are going to educate your offsprings and countrymen what your country is all about and what it truly represents… it will benefit all of us… you say you are against your govt which is great, but yet as I understand it, you support her denial of the Genocide and how our own churches should be operated…….unless I am mistaken…
Resoman.. the education provided to us in our schools is definintely closer to the truth than the education Turkey is providing to her children and citizens.. in addition, our education was not limited to our schools only.. we had families who taught us the history.. first hand knowledge…therefore, again you should not worry about how we were educated but how you should educate yourself and others about the true history of the Turkey and Armenians……
Have a nice day
Gayane and our dear friends
Who are searching to teach the truth.
No body can say more than you said,
Congratulations.
Sylva
Hi Murat, in this message which you, have addressed in your usual venue, I suggest that you endeavor to seek the following:
-where you have the word “Turkey” instead, use the word “Armenians;
-where you used the word “Armenian” replace it with the word “Turkey”
and then you have truly spoken the truths; and the truths shall set you free.
Too, you think as you do, for sadly, your schooling has been that which the
Turks have devised – omitting thei Genocidal actions of your forbears – and still pursued by all their subsequent leaders since. Sadly, as a human who never knew any of my grandparents and most of their families who suffered
the horrors of the inhumanity of humans… I truly am sad for you too… for you are taught/educated, too, been lied to by your leaderships – and you know not any better… too, Resoman, Karekin, Robert and others… sadly.
Manooshag
arm_k, abrees. Just to add: all the world respects that which those ancients had created and built – centuries and centuries ago… and with that respect comes, too, the dedication to care for these sites, REGARDLESS BY WHOM
for these are not for the moment – but for posterity…
Sadly, the genes of the Turk leaderships lack this intelligence – excelling as they do in the continuance of Genocides – murdering, raping, and worse of mankind.. the horrors of inhumanity against humans. The Armenians (one of several nations against whom the Turks perpetrated their Genocides) have recovered and from wherever in world they fled to survive, their children and grandchildren seek justice for the Turkish crimes! That is what is making the
Turks desperate! Turks thought they’d eliminated the Armenians… Not so,
we are back to tell the Turk – you committed Genocides against our families, and we, their families will gain justice – not just for our own – but for all the Genocides committed against humanity… ending the cycle of Genocides –
forever! Manooshag
AMEN Manooshag jan… AMEN…
Sylva jan.. shnorhakalutyun..
Gayane wrote;
“the education provided to us in our schools is definintely closer to the truth than the education Turkey is providing to her children and citizens..”
That’s exactly what we call brain-washing. You think that you are taught the realities at your schools, most Turks feel the same way. If you want to get closer to reality and truth, read some books written by both Turkish and Armenian writers who are in conflicting views. That’s what I do.
Resoman…
Here is one simple matter that you seem to overlook or simply don’t get.. the world knows of the 20th Century’s First Genocide as the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians and NOT the Ottoman ARmenians Genocide of Western and Eastern Turks…hmmm did i make myself clear on whose education is accurate?
now go back and educate yourself the right way…i would suggest you to read books written by NON-Armenian and Armenians more than Turkish books…
Gayane
Resoman – There is one BIG difference that you chose to discount: in addition to what we’ve been taught at schools almost every Armenian family all over the world has relatives who fled, were forcibly relocated to deserts, or miraculously survived Turkish barbarity in 1915 and the following years. Their survivor stories travelled in time, reached us, and were documented. These stories are confirmed by witness accounts of diplomats, consuls, missionaries stationed in the Ottoman empire at the time. Their stories are confirmed by your own courts martial of 1919 that sentenced the perpetrators of the genocide to death. What I mean to say is that as victims we don’t really need to read Turkish books, maybe only to familiarize ourselves with cynicism, hypocrisy and sheer distortion of history that your state advances through her writers. Besides, reading books written by both Turkish and Armenian writers who are in conflicting views will take us nowhere, and this is exactly what Turks are hoping for: to delay justice infinitely to avoid taking responsibility for committing genocide of Armenians and paying retributions and land restitution. It won’t work, Resoman. If it hadn’t worked for the past 95 years, believe me, it just won’t work in the future. The only thing that will work this all out is your repentance and cleaning yourselves from the stigma of barbarians capable of exterminating innocent human beings in the most heinous form.
P.S. You may also read books written by non-Turkish and non-Armenian writers and you’ll dinf out that the prevailing majority of scholars have no doubt in the premeditated genocide carried out by the Young Turks against Armenians.
Resoman,the Turkish education system…this is what is being discussed currently,publicly with numerous newspaper articles in Turkey.One of them is by Mr.Akyol of Hurriyet 2 weeks ago which is very interesting.Read it & it will enlighten you.
Your education system is similar to the fascist,communist system & it follows & teaches whatever your state dictates or else article 301.
Fascism & communism failed & very soon Kemalism will follow its natural death.
That’s what I say, I am against one-sided education. Read the views by both and more sides, that’s the way of the enlightenment. Armenian and Turkish education system are both unreliable and largely are based on systematic brain-washing. But if you say, that you are happy with what you read, that’s your choice, you can keep it as you like.
Gayane wrote;
“now go back and educate yourself the right way…i would suggest you to read books written by NON-Armenian and Armenians more than Turkish books…”
OK, I will educate myself the right way, I mean your way. Thank you.
Yes, Resoman, try to look into non-Turkish, and non-Armenian—if you think we and the civilized world—are just making things up. You will see that the majority of foreign historians and genocide scholars agree on the premeditated character of mass extermination of Armenians by the Turks. Your great distorter Mustafa Kemal made a smart move when he switched to Latin from Arabic script. By doing so he, among other cover-ups, deprived the Turks from a possibility to familiarize themselves with the shameful history of their nation in 1915-1923 that’s been recorded, in particular, in the court proceedings and verdicts of the Turkish courts marshal of 1919. Courts tried some of the perpetrators of mass murders of Armenians and sentenced the major ones, the Devil’s advocates as we call them (Tallat, Enver, and Jemal) to death in absentia. Read primary sources and then come back to these pages and debate with us. Mind you, we have a powerful weapon: documented survivor stories of our relatives for each of your counterargument. Good luck.
Resoman,accept the fact that we/I (most of commentators here) live abroad & not in Armenia & our education & the education system is non Armenian.I grew up with survivors of the Genocide my own grandmother & father & I do not want to go into the details of their pain.
First try to convince your own respectable intellectuals who apologised for the crimes committed by their ancestors including Mr. Orhan Pamuk that the Genocide is a fairy tale & not us.
Poor Mr. Pamuk has to flee Turkey to avoid Mr. Hrant Dink’s destiny.
Resoman,we/I are not born in Armenia & our education system is non Armenian.However I for one have grown up with survivors of the Genocide,basically my grandmother & father who was born in Aintab.I do not want to go into the details of their continuous pain.My grandmother wanted to die to forget her pain.History was passed to us firstly by these survivors.
You are right by saying that the Turkish education system is unreliable & I would say that it has & still is completely unreliable & it is coming to the end of its cycle of falsehood whether the Turkish right,left,Islamists want or not.
Resoman, what about French, German, Swedish, Swiss, American, British, Japanese, etc., education? Do you find them reliable? The evidence for the genocide can be found throughout the world’s archives. But Turkey simply diminishes these facts, challenges the veracity of eye-witness accounts and diplomatic dispatches and refuses to see the truth. You have a choice to remove the blinders your nation wants you to wear and realize that my nation was forceably removed from its homeland in a cold and barbaric manner because Turkey was afraid to lose more territory and prized Turks over Armenians. The facts speak for themselves.
Asa e Boyajian asa…
As Vtiger said.. we got our education from first hand sources.. OUR FAMILY MEMBERS… all the education taught in schools can’t and will not equate to the education provided by our grandparents and family members who lived through that history..
Gayane