Have you ever felt, after arriving somewhere, that your entire life was a gravitation towards that particular destination?
This is not an “all roads lead to Rome” kind of sensation. It is, rather, as if all the roads you thought you were consciously taking in your life were subconsciously taking you to a specific, fateful destination.
On Sun., March 21, my fifth day in Turkey, I lived that kind of “arrival,” as I found myself among the ruins of Ani.
Once the glorious capital of an Armenian kingdom, Ani had been luring me towards her for 30 years, it seemed.
It felt like I had learned to walk only to, one day, walk here.
If you’re looking for glorious monuments, look elsewhere. Ani has been grieving her lost glory for centuries. The stones of many of her majestic churches have now become building blocks for uninspiring (and that’s an understatement) houses in nearby villages. Her scars are only covered with newer scars, which are covered with even newer ones.
Here, the distortion of history is as striking as the scars. There is not a single mention of Armenians on the Ministry of Tourism signs and placards. People from Krypton could have built those churches for all we know.
Horse feces at the entrance of one of Ani’s churches was a powerful reminder of her place in this country (see photo). It reminded me of the fecal matter I saw at one of the 1915 mass graves in the Syrian desert of Der Zor last September. Back then, I told the Economist: “Donkeys are now defecating on the bones of my forefathers. They were not allowed dignity, not even in death” (“Bones to Pick,” the Economist, Oct. 8, 2009).
Nearby, the ruins of a bridge on Akhourian—the river that demarcates the border between Turkey and Armenia today—reminds us of the state of affairs between the two countries. If you are not sure exactly why Turks and Armenians are nowhere near “normalization,” ask Ani.
During my stay in Turkey, I learned about several initiatives to renovate Armenian cultural monuments (from Malatya to Diyarbekir to Ani). TEPAV, the think tank that invited me along with a group of eight American experts to Turkey, is planning to renovate the bridge on Akhourian and, after that, other structures and monuments.
The Turkish state can’t bring back those who lost their lives during the massacres and genocide, but if it is genuinely interested in mending fences with Armenians (as I was told it was by top officials of the current administration), perhaps it should start by creating a conducive environment in which the thousands of Armenian architectural structures across the country can be renovated, and their authenticity preserved. Reparations for the genocide (a topic many progressive intellectuals I met here are comfortable discussing these days publicly, and even more so, during private conversations—something which was almost impossible only a few years ago), is not only about returning confiscated land, property, and money.
Ani is a monumental reminder that Turks do not need to go very far to face their past. She is staring at them with a piercing look every single day.
“To see Venice and die,” they say. We, Armenians, can easily say the same about Ani.
I won’t. Because Ani is worth living for. Ani is worth revisiting. And Ani is worth every drop of sweat you and I can spend to make her rise from the ashes and feces.
Dr. Khatchig Mouradian
Latest posts by Dr. Khatchig Mouradian (see all)
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Thank you Khatchig. We have never met, but now for the first time in my life I hope to see this part of our history, lost to my grandparents in Kharpert once upon a time.
Great article.
The line, ‘People from Krypton could have built those churches for all we know.’ so describes the sorrow I felt when seeing Ani in 2002. How is it possible that such a monumental site, even in it’s current ruined condition, can be made so devoid of anything ‘officially’ Armenian?
If for nothing else, visits to the Old Country by Armenians, such as this article describes, are so vitally important to keep at least the ‘unofficial’ Armenian presence alive in these places.
To Janine,
My family was from the Kharpert region (in the town of Hussenig) also. Going there was such an amazing experience. I did this on a tour led by Armen Aroyan (of Pasadena). He takes people to the Old Country multiple times each year and makes it a point to find the town where your family lived, in addition to the famous spots like Van and Ani.
Great article… Truly made my heart ache reading about this….
Our Ani.. it is just sooo low to treat our monuments like that…
Hope one day I will go and visit our ancient lands..
G
Khatchig’s vivid portrayal of Historic Armenia with such a personal reflection puts us on the threshold of history and makes us ever more conscious of a civilization gone askew. For those of us who have never visited that country, it’s an instant passport to a land of forgotten dreams. Tom Vartabedian
“The pople fom Krypton built Ani”is a perfect reflection of the destructiv spirit of the goverment of Turkey. Where is the Turkish “Civilization”. And Turkey wants to be part of the civilized nations of Europe?
Khatchig Mouradian, Thank you. One day these lands will be ours again.
Eva jan.. Astvats dzaynt lsi…
Krikor jan… EXCELLENT point.. Turkey cant and does not belong to be part of modern and civilized community.. they don’t know what it means to be Civilized people .. unless they start acting like one…
David and Janine.. My great grandparents were from Kharpert, Datem village..
I am praying that one day when I end up staring at our beautiful Ani, it will be on our lands taken back from the Turks…
G
Hi Khatchig: I am glad you have gone to Historic Armenia to see the destruction of not only our Churches, cemetaries, but for you as a writer to record and let the world know what the evil Turk has done not only the Genocide of the Armenian Nation, but all other civilizations it has ravished, not counting the millions of Christians it has Moslemized down thru the centuries. My mother came from a small Village called Goteh, in the Provence of Erzerum where the whole Village was sent on a death march. My mother was married with two children whom one was bayoneted & died and the other starved to dearth after 13 days on the death march. She lost her husband, father, mother, and all her relatives, and was the only survivor from her village. She was rescued by missionaires. My father was in the Turkish Army whom fled & came from a small Village called Sis in the Provence of Shabin Kara Hissar. He also was married and after the war found out they killed his wife, his three children, father & mother, and many relatives, including his brother whom was in the Turkish Army. We wish Armenians would unite to not only help recognition of the Armenian Genocide, but to support Armenia before the Turks & Azeri’s invade our small Republic. The Bulgarian’s are asking for reparations for what the Turks did to them. Why are we so slow in not asking for Land returns & reparations. The Sevres Treaty is still a valid treaty & that treaty must be pushed before the United Nations & the world powers.
Thank you for the excellent article. I must make a sad point, though. Unfortunately, the preservation of Armenian monuments is an issue not only in Turkey or any other country, but ARMENIA itself. I am afraid you may see such sad-looking churches also in the mother country. So, while we should call for and fight for preserving our monuments elsewhere, the same should be done also WITHIN Armenia.
Dear Zara,
You have a point. Monuments and churches in Armenia are, in some cases, in terrible condition. I would also remind the readers that explosions on the Armenian side of the border not so long ago were further damaging the architectural monuments and churches on Ani.
But, believe me, the devastation, destruction, and neglect I saw in Ani–coupled with the blatant distortion of history–were simply beyond compare. This is a small area where many churches are concentrated, and joint renovation projects should not be difficult to realize. Some of these structures might collapse any moment…
This is a call to both Turkey and Armenia. It’s a shared responsibility.
Khatchig Mouradian
In your dreams…. Stop coveting another land and try to improve what you already have.
Agree with Zara completely.
Hi Guys, I am neither a turk nor an armenian, so my view would not be emotionally jaundiced. The amount of ill will and bad blood in these columns is unbelievable, Turks are not saints nor are the Armenians. History is full of such incidences not only here but all over. In Spain, India, US…to name a few. The point is where do we stop. One thing to remember is you cannot change your neighbours (unless you personally want to migrate to LA). you would have to deal and interact with them anyway, would it not be better if Armenia lead this morally by returning the lands they have occupied illegally for the past 20 years from Azerbaijan and fulfill 4 UN security council resolutions ? I have never come across any armenian who has openly condemned this. why this double standard?
Thank you for putting into words what I experienced in 2002 when I visited Armenia for the first time and by special arrangement was permitted to cross over the border briefly to view the ruins of Ani from a distance. My heart sank at the site of the desolation. My soul ached as I looked into the faces of the young Turkish soldiers who accompanied us and I realized they didn’t grasp the significance of this place. Ani is monumental as a testimony to the devastation of the Armenian homeland. Countless other such crumbling monuments of destruction are strewn across eastern Turkey today crying out to us. Thank you for sounding the alarm and calling attention to the need for immediate action to preserve our monuments.
But should we really be surprised by Turkey’s neglect and blatant destruction of historical sites which testify to the Armenian presence within its borders? Even today as Turkey seeks entrance into the EU and attempts to distance itself from the barbaric acts of its Ottoman forefathers (“It was a civil war…There were massacres on both sides…”); the knee-jerk response of President Erdogan in the face of the Swedish recognition of the Armenian Genocide is to threaten DEPORTATION of 100,000 Armenians!
If this didn’t resonate “deep down into our cells” with the inherited pain of our slaughtered ancestors, the sheer irony of Erdogan’s threat would be comical. Turkey has once again “told on herself” and demonstrated a bold-faced disregard for the consequences. I hope the countries of the EU are listening.
Thank you Khatchig for the article. I also think that Zara made a good point. Our ancient Churches and monuments should be renovated and preserved both in Turkey and in Armenia. I hope one day I will also be able to see my father’s and my maternal grandparents towns in Western Armenia.
Stephen.. EXCELLENT comment.. Very heart breaking to hear the story of your family but we are all too familiar with the horrible stories and memories of those who survived the Genocide.. Do not worry my friend.. we will get what we seek for.. Turks will pay.. I pray God so that see get back our lands, ALL OF IT..and throw the invaders out….
MIR Ali—- If one read your comment, one would NO DOUBT say you are a Turk or someone who has connection with Azerbajian or Turkey.. If you are neither a Turk or Azeri, then why are you commenting on a subject that you have no idea about.. do you know the history of the lands that ARmenia has??? Please do me a favor, do some research and then come here to preach your nonsense and try to open our eyes… The lands that Armenians occupied from Azeris belonged TO ARMENIANS and we won it back by shedding unnecessary blood ofour loved ones.. we played fair.. war happened over this and Armenia won.. I say let Azeris cry themselves to sleep, I don’t give one rat’s a#*(#$*(#$*(..
Zara jan.. I agree with you 100%.. Armenian govt should dedicate resources and time to renovate all our historic sites; however our govt is incapable of doing that.. it can’t even take care of its state and people.. i am sure restoring historic monuments are the last thing on their mind.. we need individuals, wealthy individuals to dedicate their resources to get this project going.. i can help as much as I can. i wish i had the money.. just wish.. i would not wait for anyone to tell me in order to restore and preserve history and culture, we need to first do anything and everything to keep these monuments alive.. However, as I can see it, the Armenian govt will not do that.. not now and possibly not ever.. unless we over throw the current govt and replace it with sound, intelligent, and strong govt…
Evelyn… EXCELLENT commentary.. Excellent… I also wish that UN hears the threats and NEVER let or even consider letting Turkey to join the body.. I also want UN to hear how Gordon tried to donwplay these threats.. what a low life scared cell that he is..
God Bless you all
G
To Mr. Ali,
I can certainly appreciate the idea of being good neighbors. Especially in the modern, interconnected world that we live in, thinking globally is the future. However, as they say, the devil is in the details. Take for example what you have mentioned about Armenia giving back lands it has occupied for 20 years. Sounds great until one considers that those lands that Armenia occupies were only under the auspices of Azerbaijan since the 1920s, part of a slice and dice deal that the Soviets made at the very real expense of Armenian interests.
If one is to really think globally, or at least regionally in the case of the south Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, specifically to assign lands to this country or that, then okay lets bring up the very nasty issue of 1915. To put it bluntly, all of eastern Anatolia and Karabaugh, known as the Armenia homeland for some 2500 years (one can check the maps and the history to verify this) were stolen in just a few short years from 1915 – 1923 through plain old fashioned murder on a large scale, namely genocide.
The point I’m making here is that if we are to act morally, then fine, but all have to play by the moral code. Lets talk about land assignment, eastern Anatolia (Van, Mush, Kars, Kharpert, Cilicia, Sivas, … etc.) and Karabaugh … putting it all on the table. It can essentially beguaranteed that Turks will absoulutely not want to open up such a can of worms, from their point of view.
One final note here, Armenians have been losing life and land to the Turks for over a 1,000 years. Karabaugh was where we drew the line in the sand and said … NO MORE. As an Armenian I would love to see good neighborly relations between Azerbaijan and Armenia and Turkey, but this has to be based on sound moral and historical principles. For Armenians, the only history we have to go by is that in 1915 we were nearly exterminated, removed from our historic land in large part because we trusted the Turkish government. As the Jews say about their Holocaust, NEVER AGAIN.
Gayane, Before accusing me of being a Turk. I live a million miles from there in India, in UK now for that matter. There was the partition of India and Pakistan which witnessed an exodus of tens of millions in the process millions perished, so dont preach me about genocide and forced migration.
I am a global citizen and know about world events not like an American who cannot pinpoint their own country on the map
To David, I would respectfully have to disagree with some of your observations. By 650 A.D, the Islamic empire under Omer Bin Khattab had already reached Azerbaijan and parts of Daghestan. The lands north of Iran, Islam gradually supplanted Christianity and Azerbaijani pagan cults. In the sixteenth century, Safavid Dynasty ruled over that part ( 1486- onwards). There were always power struggles going around with a lot of land exchange going around. so would respectfully disagree with your 2500 year thesis.
while you claim they were stolen for a period of 8 years?, surely this does not appear correct or logical. Or maybe you could enlighten me further?
Dear Dr. Deranian,
Thank you for writing such eloquent comment.. It was an excellent way to portray what Mister Ali refuses to see or neglects to understand or simply does not know about Armenians and the history behind it.. People like Mister Ali are great example as to why it takes this long to get this matter resolved and squared away.. People like him prolong the process.. Directly or indirectly.
I apologize if my comment to Mr Ali was very curt and possibly rude; however my nerves can’t take any more of this type of ignorance and people simply voicing their opinion without being educated on the history, background and current situation..
Thank you again for writing such a beautiful and detailed comment.
Gayane
Hi Gayane,
All is well. I have no hard feelings against you or Armenians for that matter. In fact there is an Armenian community in India living there for centuries in Kerala where I live, there is an Armenian church beside a mosque,there has never been any religious animosity between us. we live next to each other like brothers sharing each others joys, sorrows, ceremonies and celebrations. When I looked at this my approach was Conciliatory.
David: sorry the date should read 640AD as against 650 AD Omar the 2nd caliph died in 644 AD
Tes…opinionated people who lack knowledge can be time wasters! :(
If anyone wants to see the definitive history of Armenia in excruciating detail, you may want to find Robert Hewsen’s book, The Historical Atlas of Armenia. It’s excellent. Here is a bit more info on it: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/332284.html
Ayo Gary jan.. 100% chisht es…
Mr Ali,
I understand that you know some history; however when you stated that Armenia illegally occupied the lands from Azerbajian for 20 years put you on the list of people who I consider not worth having conversation with .. not an ongoing one that is.. My comrades and myself already brought and shed some light on that matter.. hopefully you will take this and maybe learn more about your neighbors who you live along side and are like brothers and sisters… I am surprised that living among them you have not captured and understood not only their history but their emotional and mental state due to the events that took place, take place and will take place when it comes to our lands, culture, and lives..Please do not think we hate you or wish you ill…On the contrary, I wish you will. I just hope that one day you truly see what Armenians are fighting for…
Thank you
Gayane
Mersi Karekin jan..
I will definintely check it out.. Seems very interesting…
Gayane
To Gayane and Mir Ali.
Thank you Gayane for both your comments and your emotional expression.
You see Mir Ali, Gayane is expressing very passionately the terrible loss that Armenians have suffered in the 20th centuray. Again let me say I appreciate your ideals on global community and also the suffering that the India-Pakistan conflict has caused. While certainly not to discount the suffering of your people, the difference of the Turkish-Armenian conflict is that the Armenian race was, and some fear still is, on the way to extinction because of the Genocide.
Gayane demonstrates with great passion that latent fear many Armenians have of dissolving into history. I can remember as a young boy telling people that I was Armenian and them looking at me with a confused look on their face, like what is an Armenian. Why? Many believe it was largely because of the Armenian Genocide. Some have even said that had there been no Armenian Genocide, Armenia today would be a nation of some 30 to 40 million people running from the Black Sea to the Mediteranean Sea, democratic, thriving economically, and with a strong military to help keep a balance of power in the Middle East. Instead tiny land locked Armenia struggles today for it’s very existence. And if that was not enough, both Turkey and Azerbaijan, in addition to blockading Armenia, are continuing the Genocide by actively destroying evidence that Armenians once lived in the lands they occupy. A specific example of this is the recent destruction of Armenian tombstones (Khatchars) in Nachitchevan, once part of the Armenian homeland that the Azeris have ethnically cleansed of Armenians. Can you see why we Armenians shutter at the thought of Azerbaijan having control of Karabaugh?
Concerning the Islamic conquest of Armenia, circa 650 AD, while not to disparge Muslim cultures (in fact may Muslim peoples have helped Armenians after the Genocide and Armenia has very good relations with many Islamic countries) the point here is that Armenians were in these lands well before such conquests, and later, after the Caliphate’s power had subsided, circa 850 AD, the Armenians again regained much of these lands. Let me be clear; most Armenians make a real distinction between Islam and Turkish conquest. The two are different. For that matter, we Armenians generally do not hate Turks, rather we struggle against the injust Turkish goverment that perpetuates genocide.
To bring this to a personal example, have a look at a short promotional film myself and some associates made at http://www.komitasthemovie.com about the life and tragedy of the prolific Armenian music composer Komitas. This amazing man lost his mind in large part because of the horrors of the Armenian Genocide.
Dear David:
I have truly appreciated with your creation with the wonderful video of our beloved genius musician Gomidas Vartabed. Like you said, he re-created all the outdated folklore songs that have lost somewhat of a touch through the years from their original Armenian motifs and he gathered them by visiting numerous Armenian towns through Western Armenia by reconstructing them and made them more modernized as well as to its original Armenian form. He did all this while he was Vartabed “Rev. Father” in Etchmiadsin Mother Church in Eastern Armenia. I read from the autobiography of one of his famous student’s, the late Prime Minister of the First Republic of Armenia Simeon Vratsian who was a student at Kevorkian Gemaran; and Gomidas was a music teacher there and Vratsian’s teacher as well. Simeon Vratsian said that he was the real-typical Armenian man. I believe that Gomidas Vartabed after the Armenian Genocide went insane not only for what he went through; but seeing how the genius Armenian intellectuals such as Taniel Varoujan and Siamanto and more than 300 of them being tortured and killed right in-front of his eyes. When he saw the torturous killings of his entire beloved nation, he then lost his mind. Through the years he worked so very hard going from place to place re-creating all those songs for his loving nation and people; afterwards, he most probably lost all hope and faith to re-create again. He figured that his nation – most of his loving people – are dead, who am I going to create more music for? Gomidas is every Armenian’s hero.
Dr. Deranian,
Thank you very much for your posts and the clip.
You understood quickly that I express my passion by writing..the passion full of love, and sometimes frustration…. The reason I say anger is not because I am frustrated with anyone particular, but I am frustrated that for 95 years we could not work together as ONE BODY, ONE SOUL, ONE MIND to tackle The Genocide matter among many other matters that to this day affect our lives as Armenians living both in Armenia and in Diaspora.. My passion is very strong… I know you can see it through how I write.. however, that is how I express how I feel. .. I am nobody, with no financial basis, no academic basis, no political basis..however, I am just a little piece of what we call our mother land Armenia, I represent one cell of an organizm called Armenian culture…and I love my country and people with every fiber in my body… hence why most of the time my words and comments come out strong and with passion.. You are very accurate with your accessment Dr..
I want to thank you for sharing the video clip. I have to say, when I read an article about Komitas in “Yerevan” magazine a while back, the tears would not stop rolling down on my cheeks… My heart bled for this hanjaregh individual who past away without any noble funeral and recognition.. After watching your clip, I re-lived the pain that he must have gone through and the tears chocked me yet again… How can we not bow to this man who has done so much for our culture.. As Nairian said, Komitas is our hero.. and will be for years to come.. He is my connection to my forefathers lands.. he is our connection to our lost lives. His death was a true tragedy and I hope that every Armenian who is alive will keep his memory alive by listening to his maqur Armenian music and disregard the modern rabiz music… I hope that every Armenian who is born grows up surrounded with the delicate and beautiful sounds of his qamancha… Komitas is a true legend…
Dr. Deranian I will be sharing this link with everyone on my list.. Armenian or non-Armenian… I am very big proponent of educating our non-Armenian friends about our culture and nation..and I intend to do so as long as I have a breath in me…
Thank you again for your posts and your kind words…
Gayane
Armenians as tourists in their homeland. How reprehensible!
To Nairian,
So glad you like the film. I was really moved by you passion for Komitas and what he means to the Armenian people. Honestly, before working on the film, I knew just a bit about Komitas, mostly that he wrote church music. But as you describe, there was so much more to the man. In many ways I consider him a metaphor for the Armenian people. That is, a light shining brightly cut short in 1915. Thank God though, that light has been lit again and every time Komitas’s music is played or sung, that light gets a liitle bit brighter. So to the Armenian people. I thank God that we are still shining, perhaps not as bright as we would like, but shining nevertheless.
Please tell you friends and family about the website as we are trying to spread the word about Komitas. The next project in line with what we have done so far is to make a feature film, called Red Harvest, about Komitas and the other Armenian intellectuals and community leaders arrested on April 24, 1915 to be taken on the death march that would eventually lead to Komitas losing his mind.
Krikor:
Be my guest and come and see Turkish civilization in Turkey. Building only churches in NOT civilization.
It simply blows people’s mind that Turks have no civilization who has created one of the biggest empire in the history.
Knowing and acknowleding what turks have done is a scary part and can not be admitted by any Armenian.
David, A breif snapshot of history: After the Islamic Chaliphate in 650’s AD, there was the Ommayyad Dynasty which ended in 750 AD. Then there was the Abbasid Dynasty which was from 750 AD till 1258 AD. This is the date which everyone remembers because the islamic civilization was totally decimated with libraries burnt to the ground and huge civilian population in the areas decimated at the hands of the mongols by Halagu Khan ( the mongol hordes read it as Turks) the sacking of Baghdad is the most poigant event where it is said there were rivers of blood and ink from the libraries, the popualation of Iran was reduced from 2 million to less than a hundred thousand (they never recovered after that they reached this population level only in the 20th century !!!) areas around Afghanistan etc were also totally decimated.Halaugu / Halagath in the local languages around means death and devastation.
There is a popular legend that during the seige of Herat, he lost his favourite commander in the battle, he was extremley enraged and ordered the entire population including animals to be decimated, after 6 months he returned to find a mouse running among the rubble, he was so enraged that his orders were not executed adequately, he ordered a thousand of his soldiers who were incharge killed !!! ( History repeating itself, Turks before !!?) It was only after 150 years these mongols converted to Islam and adopted the persian culture in their courts which they had destroyed. we then had their renaissance in the form of the Ottoman empire which lasted till the 20th century.. well thats the history in a nutshell.
Gayane: You will be surprised the Armenians living in India apparently came during the 2nd century AD along with the syrian christians (who came earlier) who claim to be disciples of the 12 apostles of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Due to the trade and commercial links, the christian community here is one the the oldest christian communities outside the middle east they surely did not come in 1915 AD.
Dear David,
I do indeed appreciate all your work for our beloved Gomidas Vartabed. I will tell and e-mail to friends and family about your website and if I can be of any help to you, I’ll be more than happy to do so. You can get my e-mail from the editors. No Armenian can come short of truly appreciating for what he has done for the Armenian culture, our songs and our music (both for Church and folklore songs). If you read -though in Armenian- Simeon Vratsyan’s memoirs about Gomidas; you not only love his genius but also his humanity and humility. His zest for life and his youthfulness. He used to take his students for outings and play ball with them. And every so often he would leave to go to the various little towns “kughere” to gather songs from the local people, then he would come back and work on them to ameliorate. Vratsyan said that his laughter was so moving that it would almost shake the world beneath you, yet he was prudent and expected from his students diligence and super morality. He was forgiving but with a limit; they had to be good human beings, and he expected the same morality from his peers and the rest of the clergy; but some came short of it unfortunately. In short, he was one of the most wonderful Armenian man that you could come across to, even in his times. Too bad, he didn’t deserve to die the way he did; but his legacy and his songs will remain with us forever!
OF MICE….(MOUSE) BY MIR ALI AD THEN SOME…
MIR ALI IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT YOU ARE NOT A TURK..WITH AMPLE KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY(NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT)..
YET YOU -OR SOME ONE ELSE UP ABOVE MENTIONED THE PARTITION OF INDIA(VIZ.AFTER GANDHI ASKED THE BRITS TO LEAVE..)what does this prove.
there are peopl/nations that can live peacefully side by side-but each owning its lands,culture,language and what not.BUT AGAIN EVEN THE INDIANS OF INDAI COULD NOT LIVE TOGETHER WITH THE PAKISTANIS…WHY?
WHILE ARMENIANS HAVE LIVED THROUGH ALL THAT YOU,OTHERS DESCRIBE…more or less peacefully WITH PEOPLE LIKE THE PERSIANS(IRNIS),ARABS(EVEN THOUGH BOTH INVADED ARMENIA,BUT THEN PULLED OUT AND KEEP GOOD RELATIONS.HOW COME ? I ASK YOU TURKS ARE NOT COMING TO REALIZE THAT ABOVE RELATIONS CAN ACTUALLY ALSO BE EMPLOYED BY THEM
I THINK IT IS A MATTER OF TIME WHEN THEY WILL _THEIR GOVERNMENTS I.E., NOT THE PEOPLE-COME TO TERMS ,especially if the Anglo-As let go of them.Mark, not the other natios..like Russians(they know whom they deal with )or the French etc. but those two Anglo9unfortunately we communicate here in their language,by the by ,it has become the universal meas of communication..for you see they still have that British Empire feelings(passed on to great Turkey0.These two nations have to first of all understand -again i beg pardon their higher ehcelon ,diplomacy and governmets…that things change. Dr. Mossadeque of Iran(like Gandhi) asked the Brits out…. and is now a real sverign country like India…you see, untill sch time as the Anglo-Ams do ot change a wee bit at least towards this (their created ) country great turkey…there will not be real peace in that area.There may yet be more conflicts there…fact is they are arming theselves all the while…
While we her talk of peace of renovation of monuments this that. Mr. Erdogan and his like are delivering discourses ,that are tantamount to war rhetoric-Aliev Baba and son come to mind…their little broters.Why.?
aother up above-a turk, says Armenians have occupied Azeri lands(Azerbaijan as such did not even exist before 1900’s land there was Dagestani,Persian lenkorani,Armenian(from Gandzak(Gandja..0 furter dwn south …Armenina
HAVE LIBERATED ONLY PART OF THEIR LEGITIMATE LANDS IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD…while agresor Azeri omons occupied Shahumian district totally Armenian populated and drove them out
Again Mir Ali, indeed there have been may wars in the past ,but Armenia has SOMEHOW EMERGED FROM ASES AND REGAINED ITS PLACE IN THE WORLD AS A SOVERIGN NATION/STATE.BELIEVE YOU ME WE SHALL ENDURE ALL DIFFICULTIES, MASACRES GENOCIDES AND LIKE SAROYAN WROTE EVEN TW OF US GETTING TOGETHER WILL CREATE YET ANOTHER ARMENIA.
S TELL THOSE TURKS TO ONLY COMPREHEND THAT..ESPECIALLY NOW THAT THERE IS TALK OF RAPPROCHEMET…THE PROTOCOLS ETC.,
I SUPPOSE THIS WILL BE SUFFICIENT TO REMIND ALL THAT EVEN THOUGH KARS ANI ET AL ARE STILL TURKISH LANDS,ONCE THE KURDISH ISSUE RIPENS UP -SOME 20 MILLION OR SO-(DIFFICULT TO DEPORT THEM? TO WHERE MESOPOTAMIA/
THEN OUR TURN WILL COME…
G.P
Dear David (and Gayane) — my grandmother was from Hussenig! We might be related :-) I am immediately going to view the film clip, thank you. Also, second the highly recommended work of Professor Robert Hewsen.
Dear Shantagizoum, I appreciate all you wrote above by telling only the truth to Ali.
Dear Gayane, I also appreciate all your posts above speaking of the truth that prevails to Mir Ali.
Janine Jan..
I would not be surprised if we had some sort of connection … Only God knows how many people lost connection because of Genocide…:)
We should definintely connect outside of this site..
Nairian jan… Thank you… I all about truth and justice… and I agree with you that Dr Deranian has done and will do a great service to our people if he makes the movie about Komitas… I have shared his site with everyone on my list and I am planning to donate with little that i can…
Mr. Ali… I am sorry but you completely lost me with your last comment.. Not sure what you were talking about and refering to.. Was not sure if you were agreeing with us or trying to disproof us.. Sorry.. I was a bit lost..
God Bless…
Gayane
To Gayane, Janine, and Nairian,
Much thanks for checking out the promo film about Komitas at the website. Your heartfelt expression about this amazing Armenian musical prodigy so affirms my belief that the movie to tell the story of the Armenian Genocide can be done so effectively by telling the story of Komitas.
Just to let you all know, a script for a full length feature film called Red Harvest, about Komitas and the Armenian Genocide has been written and is currently being passed around in Hollywood. Details of how this film project is progressing will be available on the website.
Again, I’m so encouraged by all of your comments and thank you in advance for passing on info about the film to your friends and family and for your offer to help with the project. I can always be reached through facebook (username David Deranian) and would really appreciate staying in touch with you all.
P.S. Gayane and Janine, always great to meet fellow Kharpertsi. When I visited Hussineg back in 2002 it was still in decent shape with many of the original Armenian buildings still intact, much more that most parts of historical Western Armenia I was told. My mother and I were even able to see the house/neighborhood where my grandfather lived when he was a boy. It was an amazing experience.
To Mir Ali,
Very interesting history about the Islamic empires and cultures that you describe. I am somewhat familiar with the history but not nearly to this level. When I get the time I would love to learn more about this fascinating period of history which I believe has such huge implications for the world of today. Such great film(s) could come from this.
My mother and I were even able to see the house/neighborhood where my grandfather lived when he was a boy. It was an amazing experience.
Wow!
Hye Stephen, Gayane, David and Janine; I have heard so often of Husenig, but I didn’t know that it was in Kharpert. My father is Palutsi and Palu with the sourrinding towns is in the State of Kharpert, so yes dear Gayane and Janine we are close. My maternal grandfather’s anscestors were originally from Naxichevan, and when the Seljuk Turks charged in from Mongolia anywhere from mid 12 to the 13th centuries, the Armenians rather than totally being slaughtered in there they either went down south or to the west. I know some of them went to Smirna. My grandfather’s anscestors went to Dikranagert. So yes, my father is Palutsi which is in the State of Kharpert. From the stories that I have heard from my family and my elders, I can surely relate to my friend Stephen Dulgarian’s story above. It’s the sad story that every Armenian can relate to ever since the Seljuk Turks invaded our Western Armenian lands from Mongolia.
Dear Stephen; I am also glad that you brought up the Sevres Treaty as well as the Wilson Arbitration Award that is still due to us legitimately and legally binding. Also, I truthfully appreciate the fact that Serge Sarkissian just said it recently that when will our Nuremberg will take place? Very just and truthful reminder to the world powers and to the laws and the legalities within nations.
Every Armenian needs to educate themselves about the Treaty of Sevres.
Dear David, Janine, and Nairian, what I regret the most is not hearing enough stories about my ancestors.. My grandparents hardly ever shared their memories about their parents journey and theirs during and after the Genocide.. I don’t blame them..I regret that no one was able to collect the valuable stories that my great grandfather knew… Even though my mom told me pieces of what my great grandfather used to do I learned about his work just recently in the book called Old and New Kharpert.. This was written by one of the residents’ son about the residents of Kharpert in Armenia….my great grandfather wrote a page or two about his life and his family and the last 5 pages were copies of the letters of those people who he helped to reunite with their lost ones.. When he arrived from Old Kharpert and settled in Nor Kharpert in Armenia, he begun his work, without financial help from anyone (he also refused any money from the families who wanted to pay for his services) finding orphans that still remained in Turkey and those that were lost and sold to Muslims… He helped thousands of families.. he had associations with US, France and Russia… His tremendous work was absolutely amazing….. Because of him, Nor Kharpert put up a monument for all the lost souls during Genocide… In addition, there is a section about my great grandfather and his family in the Nor Kharpert’s School Museum….
His love for his country and his people allowed him to do the most noble job leaving him penniless (his family wealth and lands were forcefully taken by Turkish govt during the Genocide) but he died a happy man.. his name will always be remained in those individuals that he helped and of course he will remain our “DeDe” and “Paron Ter-Petrossyan” to the world…
His will when he wrote his little autobio was: Yes chem uzenar vor im nman taparashrjik kyanq apreq, bayts ur al mnaq u apriq, dzer arevturi yev gortsneutyan mech ughamit mnatseq. Chqavornerun ognenq vorchap vor krnaq dzer andznakan gorts@ chvnaselu chapov, vnasarar mardonts yev kazmakerputyunnerits heru mnatseq… His also said.. After I pass, never ever forget to keep ties with your family and relatives…
Unfortunately, I have never visited Turkey nor the ancient lands… hoping that one day I will be able to visit my ancestrial lands and see where my great grandfather and his family came from…but I know that all my days there will be spent crying my eyes out… My heart would not take seeing our country under Turkish govt and in ruins…I have hope though… hope that one day we will have our grand Armenia back…
Gayane
Dr. Deranian
I tried to add you on my facebook but there are four of you..:) Which one is you?
Please advise.
Thank you
Gayane
Dr. Khatchig you went back
To touch the Khatch
Where your ancestors proudly carved.
You archived your ambition
That is something in your life
Sounds, serenades great.
I hope one day you will see
Your grandchildren playing,
On that ground,
That place, it touched your heart.
Nothing is impossible in life
If hopes with determination
Are believed and blessed!
As English proverb curls,
“Where there is a will there is a way.”
Written Instantly
Hi from Istanbul,
I know past is very painfull, as a Turk, i can understand how it is, most of Turks are really verry sorry, about that. But i beileve that, there is no noble race or noble blood in the world. I have lots of Armenian friends here in Istanbul. I used to live in London and New York, i felt i am closer to Greeeks, Armenians than English and Americans. We are from same place, here is also your country. i am sure when you come to your parent’s lands you will feel different, you will feel better. I beileve that all Anatolian people are relatives. Lets never forget the past, but lets talk about better future for everyone. There was not only bad things between Armenians and Turks, there were lots of good things. We have lived together 1000 years, still leaving together in istanbul.
Anyway I’ve just wanted to say hello from my and your country.
To Istanbul: Hi from historical Armenian cities above to a commentator from ancient Bysantine capital of Konstantinople, invaded by nomadic Turks in the 15th century and which magnificent Christian churches like Hagia Sophia have been transformed into mosques. Hi! What a soft diplomatic, typically Turkish, carfully chosen stock of words that you think readers will buy, but you’re mistaken. First of all, if you’re sorry for the Armenians’ pain you’ll need to apologize to them. Second, we are NOT from the same place: Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians were living in the Asia Monir and Armenian Plateau fro millennia before nomadic Seljuk tribes arrived to the are with sword and fire only in the 11th century AD. Third, it is not ALSO our country. It IS our country which you’ve emptied in the most barbaric, atrocious way throughout the centuries of the Ottoman empire and found a final solution in 1915-1921 by perpetrating Genocide against Armenians, wiping out the population, destroying their architectural, educational, religious monuments and municipal and rural dwellings. Fourth, of course we’ll feel different visiting the lands of our ancestors: it”ll cause us a great pain to see that the whole civilization was wiped out from the face of the earth and vitually all of their monuments destroyed or transformed to sheep houses by “civilized” Turks… Fifth, we are not relatives: Armenians belong to Indo-European Christian family of nations whereas Turks are of nimadic Turcik Muslim origin. But if you meant that we are all human beings, I, of course, agree. Sixth, there have been good things between us, too, of course, but these good things never stopped your forefathers to exterminate the whole race. Seventh, we have’t lived together for 1000 years: Armenians had to live under the Ottoman yoke beginning the 14th century until the Genocide, the early 20th century, which makes it under 600 years. But Armenians have a multi-millennia history that goes well beyond those enslaved Ottoman years. Lastly, a pocket of Armenians, some 60,000 out of 3 mln who survived Turkish slaughters, is still preserved in Konstantinople, living in fear. Especially after the expression of Turkish “good-neighbourly” attitude towards them, when prominent Turkish journalist of Armenian origin Hrant Dink was assasinated in the daylight in the centre of the city.
I just wanted to say hello from ancient Armenian provinces and cities of Van, Moush, Diyarbekir (Tigranakert), Bitlis, Sassoun, Kars, Ardahan, and many, many others…
And one more thing re: Turks and Aremnians living together in Konstantinople. Was it not your prime-minster, copying your Ottoman forefathers’ treatment of Armenians, who recently declared that he’d deport Armenians living in Turkey? Just as Young Turks deported and massacred virtually all Armenian population in the early 1920s. What moron cna believe that Turks can ever live “together” in a non-violent manner with other, non-Muslim, non-Turkic civilizations. Your nation’s record is proven. Your cheap, snakelike words are of no avail…
To Istanbul,
Much thanks for you comments. I can attest to the fact that the culture of Turks and Armenians does seem to come from a common Anatolian culture. At least that was my experience when I visited where my grandfather grew up as a boy in Kharpert/Elazig.
It is common knowledge in my family that during the 1896 massacres when some 150,000 to 200,000 Armenians were killed, a Turkish family hid my family, at risk to their own lives I would imagine. What is so unfortunate for the Turkish people I believe is that your real heros, those that saved Armenians, at risk to their own lives, are not celebrated. Instead the government perpetuates a mythology about the Young Turks, who in my opinion destroyed the Ottoman Empire.
This is such a missed opportunity for Turks. It’s my hope that soon the Turkish government will see the light, so to speak, and recognize the true Turkish heros.
To Gayane,
How fortunate you are to have had such a wonderful great-grandfather – a real patriot and a good man.
To Gayane,
As far as I know, it’s just David Deranian. You can also contact me at rderanian@hotmail.com
Very well said Western Armenia jan..
I know you are passionate about our country and people like I am and i can feel it from how you write…I agree with everything you said and more.
However, I also agree with Dr. Deranian about recognizing those Turks who truly against all odds are standing up to their govt and doing what is just and true.. We can’t forget those indivduals..Just like Dr Deranian stated this is such a missed opporunity for Turks because their govt is covering up and continues to cover up the history and hope one day they will … I pray God that they will…
Gayane
Western Armenia, love your strong voice! I hope Istanbul can understand that your passion comes from the pain our people endured and the re-injury that occurs every time a “well-meaning” Turk suggests we have so much in common. Did Istanbul mean well? Were those words sincere? I don’t know. What I do know is that Istanbul’s words were like a tiny drop in the ocean of acknowledgment and validation that we as a nation deserve from the descendants of the Young Turks and Ottoman Empire.
To Istanbul: You don’t have the right to make light of our loss and to claim kinship with us. Your eyes are beginning to open but you have so much more to grasp. You are the inheritor of a stolen fortune, a stolen culture and a stolen history. It will be painful for you and your people to come to terms with this, but you must or risk remaining the descendants of the “sick man of Europe.”
Ayo Boyajian jan.. Shat shat chisht es…
There is no comparison or kinship among Turks and Armenians.. Never was and never will be. It is unfortunate but we have to face the truth… However, maybe people like Istanbul (if he is genuine) who represents one drop in the deep dark ocean may be the first wave to bring back the the clean, light blue ocean…I wish to believe that.. and hope that it may become true…
Gayane
Thank you Dr. Deranian jan…
He sure was.. I now understand and know where I got my passion, love and strong connection to my people and country…from him..:) I am his great granddaughter.. :)
Gayane
Dear Gayane — how can I find you on Facebook?
Istanbul — I have met some Turkish people like you. Thank you for your comments. I, too, have a story of my grandmother and great grandmother being saved by a Turkish woman. She was the widow of a military officer — the soldiers could not come into the home because it was forbidden by law for them to enter the home of a woman living alone. She hid at least 18 Armenians in her basement as far as I know. This is how they survived.
Best wishes,
Janine
Dear Janine,
Given the hawkish, non-conciliatory tone of many Turkish visitors in this forum, who are obviously brainwashed by what they’re being taught in schools, I’d expect that in addition to your comment you’d pose several compelling questions: 1)whom was that Turkish woman hiding your grandmother and great grandmother from? 2) why would she need to save those 18 Armenians? 3)who posed a life threat to your realtives? 4)why wouldn’t the Ottoman government protect their own subjects?, and the like… And let’s see what these brainwashed Turks would have to say about it. Maybe they finally look in a non-Turkish source describing the events of those cataclysmic for Armeians years? Maybe they would find an answer to a question that the whole civilized world already knows as to what happenned to 3 millions of Armenians inhabitting several provinces in the Ottoman Empire for millennia? Maybe they would finally come accross a clarification that it was a Turkish government-planned deliberate campaign of race extermination, and not a war, intercommunal violence and bull**** that they are being taught at schools. But do Turks have a mental capacity and a courage to do such an independent research or it’ll be punished by Provision 301, Penal Code? Or maybe theyare afraid if they raise their voice in support of the historical truth they’ll be shot to death as Hrant Dink or deported as Orhan Pamuk?
Janine jan..
You can find me by searching for Gayane Voskanyan… :) (I think) :)
Gayane
Hye, and as Archbishop Mesrob Ashjian, of blessed memory, too, with fellow Armenians travelled to Turkey to visit the villages of their families with Armen Aroyan’s tour had also found, so many of the churches fallen to ruins, with only the birds nesting and singing… In each of these churches together they sang the Sharagans, and prayed. Then, in one village – listening, where children were playing and singing… the melody Armenian – the words Turkish. A grandmother, Armenian, had to have passed this on to her ‘family’…. Manooshag
Ardaghan, of course your questions are important. And about the brainwashed nationalists you are right (especially the crazier voices we get once in awhile around here). But I felt that “Istanbul” was sympathetic and I took his or her comments at face value.
When I was a student at University, I met a Turkish Ph.D. candidate studying history. He was from Trebizond. He took me aside and asked me about my family, and told me he believed everything I said. He also suggested – warning me – that I not necessarily identify myself to other Turkish students there as Armenian because they would be hostile. I like to think now that this man perhaps has grown to become another brave Taner Akcam or one of the intellectuals we can admire for their courage. I hope he did not wind up in a Turkish prison. My great grandfather was a courageous man who wanted a Turkey with a Bill of Rights for all minorities such as he had encountered in the US; on the other side my grandfather was a tough nationalist. Should I not at least honor people who want the truth, as opposed to the hate-filled people I’ve met who hated me on sight when they found out I was Armenian? I remember that too. And the story about the Turkish woman (whose rights counted when our people’s did not) was also important in that setting.
Ardaghan jan..
You hit the bulls eye… Turks who talk nonsense should listen to Janine’s story and many others whose relatives were hidden during the Genocide and go “hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, that is very odd… hmmmmmm i wonder why that happened? could it be because Turkish Govt was executing complete annhiliation of a race and good hearted Turks had to hide these Armenians from being kileed… WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAA>. that makes sense… Of course… There had to Genocide for those Turks to hide Armenians despite having the chance of being killed themselves….
Gayane
You might think Turkey would want all of this negative publicity to go away, and that to reach that goal, a simple apology to the descendants of their former citizens would be a great step. Armenians are the original children of Anatolia, and as such they deserve at least that much from those who came from thousands of miles away and established their kingdoms on Armenian land. Whether or not it was 2 million who got killed or 300K, the result was horrific and an entire native population was decimated by official order. You can call it whatever you want, but an apology – a sincere apology – is in order. The fiction that Armenians were engaged in war against the Ottoman Empire is just that…a fictional story that is part of the defensive propaganda campaign of those who are defending the CUP murderers. And Erdogan wonders why diaspora Armenians are impatient with him? a man who is quick to label almost anything a ‘genocide’, except what happened to the Armenians.
Karekin — A correction. You wrote: “Armenians are the original children of Anatolia.” There was no such a toponym as Anatolia throughout the history, it’s a newest Turkish creation (‘Antalya’) to erase the historically correct toponym of ‘Western Armenia’. A correct geographical toponym for the area inhabitted by the Armenians and other ancinet nations in historical terms is known as “Asia Minor,” “the Armenian Plateau,” “the Armenian Highlands,” or simply “Western Armenia.”
Exactly Karekin!!
This guy Erdogun is so quick to label the Chinese and the Israelites that they’re commiting a genocide, yet he dismisses the real facts that his anscestors (the CUP) committed the first Genocide of the twentieth century with the annihilation of Armenians. He further goes on denying and lying to the world that the poor annihilated Armenian martyrs have killed them. He is so deranged and warped it’s not funny. The Turks in 1915 were 4 million and today in 2010 they are 74 million. Yet Armenians living in Turkey were 3 million altogether. In Talaat’s “Black Book”, Armenians after 1918 that remained in Turkey were 250,000. In Eastern Armenia after 1918 along with the survivors from the Armenian Genocide were not more than 800,000 when they all fought until their last breath against Turkey and won the war in May 28, 1918, and that’s how they managed for us to have our Armenian Republic that exists today. How is it then the 3 million Armenians in Turkey in 1915 and about 500,000 Armenians in Eastern part of Armenia, yet today Armenians are a mere 8-10 million all around the world? In 1915 the 3.5 million Armenian population must have been today at least 44 million and not 8-10 million if they were left alone and the CUP’s didn’t commit a Genocide against Armenians in 1915. Yet the Turks in 1915 were 4 Million altogether and today they are 74 million. Here’s the proof Mr. Erdogun that your Turkish government in 1915 committed a heinous crime against humanity with the Armenian Genocide that they have committed towards their civilian Turkish subjects (the Armenians).
My grandfather Avedis, who barely escaped the Armenian Genocide (his mother, father, younger brother, and younger sister – all killed) had a saying, “Never make an enemy if you don’t have to.” I like to think that his words are especially important for Armenians today.
For the last 20 years or so, the Armenian Cause has been steadily gaining ground. Who would have thought 25 years ago, that major powers of the world would again be grappling with the Armenian Question? That there is an independent Armenian state along with a relatively strong, prosperous, and politically active Armenian diaspora, both working (well some would debate this) to further the Armenian Cause is, given that we were nearly exterminated some 90 to 95 years ago, is I think, nothing short of amazing and something for which we can be very thankful.
So now we Armenians are back in the game so to speak, and the question for us now is, what do we do now to take the Armenian Cause to the next level? For example, are we really serious about reclaiming historical Armenian lands, or do we merely want to just blow off steam, to scream and yell and accomplish close to nothing? We need to be smart.
To catergorize all Turks as devils and all Armenians as angels is not only naive, but dangerous. For that matter it has been demonstrated from a scientific point of view, that indeed Turks and Armenians are related (both peoples share the genetic disease Mediteranean fever). Of course this makes sense because the central asian Turks invaded, took our women, forced conversion and their language on us, … etc. Go anywhere in Turkey today and you will be hard pressed to see the asiatic eyes of central asian Mongol-Turkic peoples. Rather, you will see people that look like Greeks and Armenians, likely the descendents of these and other native Anatolian peoples that long ago converted to Islam and essentially became Turks.
This is not to say that we should just trust Turks. On the contrary, they have demonstrated for the last 1000 or so years, that they should not be trusted. Nevertheless there are some, i.e. the Turkish PhD candidate that Janine mentioned, and most certainly Taner Akcam, that clearly demonstrate individual merit and courage, amidst the larger Turkish interest which yes, is our enemy. It’s such individual Turks of merit and courage, that I personally as an Armenian, would gladly shake hands with and be honored to call a friend.
David…while I appreciate your comments, let’s not kid ourselves..the major powers of the world really do not care about the genocide OR about Armenians. That’s a fallacy. What they care about is their own self-interest and the flow of oil. The bottom line is that today’s Armenia is in the way, and rather than take a cruel and hostile approach, everything is being done to placate the Armenians into handing over a safe transit route that will help Turkey, Israel and possibly Europe, but very little of substance is being offered to Armenia for this. This is the greatest game on earth and hopefully Armenians will be able to get something of lasting, permanent value out of it. If the Turks want Azeri and central Asian oil to come to them via Armenian territory, perhaps the price to pay will be genocide recognition. But, as with any other deal in the Middle East, there is some hard bargaining to be done. Let’s just hope our little Armenia can hold its ground, work out a beneficial solution that is win-win on all sides, and move forward. This is in the interest of peace and prosperity, yes, but of all people, Armenians should not be cheated out of their history in the process.
Just FYI to all armenians:
You talk about armenians who use Turkish names and perhaps some changed their identity.. TANER AKCAM is an Armenian and secret service worker who uses unfortunately a Turkish name… shame on him…
There are more people like him in Turkey…
Kurt, Istanbul- Turkey
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
You know, all we have to do is just be quiet and let some people around here talk and the whole case will be proven.
How is it that people who can at least read in English don’t know that the elimination of an entire population from their homeland — even in the midst of a FULL SCALE WAR – is a war crime and still a genocide? Do you really think the elimination and murder of 1.5 million people could be justified by ANYTHING under international law? This is how far away from reality these arguments are. Never mind that there was not even remotely any such thing.
David,
As a biologist, I fundamentally disagree with your statement that “it has been demonstrated from a scientific point of view that indeed Turks and Armenians are related (both peoples share the genetic disease Mediterranean fever).” I’d like to have the links and references to that scientific ‘evidence’. Every nation is related to each other biologically, you’ll be shocked to know that an Armenian grandson can be more related to a Chinese based on his DNA that to his own grandfather. Intermarriages, intercourses with Armenian girls whom Turks forcibly sold to harems, and scores of Armenian children that have been converted to Islam of course leave a genetic imprint, but is it sufficient to claim that these two peoples are related to each other?! This is incorrect also from the historical, racial, and religious points of view. Armenians, whose ethnogenesis is commonly accepted to go as far back as 2nd millennia BC, cannot possibly be related to the newcomers on the world map, the Turks, whose Seljuk forefathers-nomads came across to Asia Minor from the Central Asian steppes only in the 11th century AD. Racially and linguistically, Armenians belong to Indo-European family of nations that originated in Northern India and then spread across Asia Minor and into Europe, whereas Turks are of nomadic Turkic origin. Religiously, needless to say, perhaps, we are one of the most ancient Christians inhabiting the Earth, first nation that is internationally known as having officially adopted Christianity its state religion in the 4th century AD as, whereas Turks are the followers of Islam which emerged in Arabia only in the 7th century AD. I’d like to take a look at the evidence you’ve mentioned.
Curiously,
Artashes
To Artashes Bakunts,
Thank you for your response which was quite interesting to read.
First off, here’s a reference to Mediterranean fever – http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/21/health/la-he-practice21-2009dec21
Additional articles can be found through google under ‘Armenians Turks Mediteranean fever’. Here’s a few sentences from the article. ‘Familial Mediterranean fever is a genetic disease that primarily affects certain people — Greeks, Armenians, Turks and Sephardic Jews in particular — whose ancestors once lived in lands bordering that great sea.’
Without getting into elaborate details (in a crunch at work) I think perhaps the issue of disagreement concerns how we are using the word ‘related’. My use of the word is mainly to emphasize that indeed the Turks were, relatively speaking, newcomers to Anatolia and that modern day Turks do not look like the Central Asian type, i.e. mongoloid features, of people that one would expect given the history. That leaves the question, if Turks don’t look like Central Asian people then what do they look like? From my experience (a visit to historical Armenia and Istanbul) modern day Turks look very much like Greeks and Armenians. So how did that happen? I would suggest, for many if not all of the reasons you mentioned in your post.
My real point in all of this is to assert that notions of racial purity, are just plain nonsense. Your explanations of this from a biologist’s point of view are much better than mine so I won’t elaborate.
What matters in the end is culture and yes indeed, Armenians and Turks, do differ significantly in language, history, religion, politics, etc. i.e. culture.
Again, my apologies for not being able to spend more time with this – a very interesting discussion.
To Karekin,
Concerning Armenia and the great game of oil politics, what you wrote was very interesting and I concur completely. I hope, along with you, that Armenia can survive this game. It certainly is not an easy task, which seems to usually be the case for Armenian interests.
To: Kurt, Istanbul (known as Constantinople throughout the history)- Turkey
FYI, ‘Armenians’ is a proper noun, in case you missed grammar classes at school, next time you use proper nouns, any, not necessarily related to Armenians, do try to memorize this trivial grammatical canon, OK? Now, to the point of your comment: what essentially IS Turkish identity? Do you know what huge number of representatives of ancient nations you forcibly interbred? Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and many, many others… Let your government lift the discriminatory Article 301 of your Penal Code and you’ll be shocked to know how many millions of your co-citizens will reveal their non-Turkish, non-Muslim origin. Your identity belongs to Altay mountains and steppes of Central Asia, not in Asia Minor. Intellectuals like Taner Akcam and Orhan Pamuk are national heros, my hat goes off to them for their courage and determination to speak the truth about the Armenian Genocide. They show by their example that the Turks are not widely “barbaric Turks” as the world came to know them, but can also be honest and courageous people. Shame on YOU for being a genocide-denialist and for not having guts to speak out the truth.
There’s a very convincing and widely used verse in the Holy Bible (and I understand you may a Muslim, but the meaning of the verse is all-human, universal, I believe). It’s in John 8:32 “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
The reason David is right on target about DNA and heritage in Turkey is because from the time the Seljuks arrived, there were very few, all male warriors coming in and mingling w/ the locals. In one generation, those Turks all had half-Armenian children. The process continued as additional waves entered Anatolia, but the local population was always the foundation of the population. Extrapolate that 900 years ahead, and virtually every ‘Turk’ in Turkey is of very mixed heritage, incorporating Armenian, Greek and other backgrounds. Keep in mind, not one Sultan ever choose a ‘Turkish’ wife…they were all from the minorities groups (who were viewed in very high esteem) of the empire. So, even the ruling classes were all mixed. That is why by 1915, the population was actually minority Turkish, not minority Muslim, but Turks were roughly the same number as Armenians.
Karekin — The Seljuks have not objectively ‘arrived’ to the area. They invaded it with sword, fire, and unutterable barbarity. Maybe they considered themselves warriors, but for the indigenous peoples inhabiting Asia Minor for millenia they were invaders, looters, rapists, and occupiers of other nations’ lands. We need to call things by their names. And it’s not 900 years that Armenians lived under their yoke: last Armenian kingdom of Cilicia existed up until 14th century, which makes it 600 years. We need to project the picture fully so these Turkish visitors understand that their forefathers were newcomers to the area and the lands they presently occupy originally were not theirs. Maybe this way they would become more inclined to understanding the Armenians’ pain. Thank you. — Taguhi
so Takuhi, 900 years later, and you are still upset that Armenians enabled and helped the Seljuks to take Asia Minor from the Greeks, whom they hated so much? the Seljuks did not take Anatolia by themselves…there were not enough of them, and several hundred years of Byzantine rule was not all that wonderful for Armenians, either. then, just as now, armenians were too weak, too divided by their ishkhans and too few to resist anyone. that’s just history. time moves on.
To Karekin and Taghui,
A fantasy I sometimes have is for the entire Turkish population to be genetically tested (say for insurance reasons – EU and all of that) in the near future and they find out, to their dismay, that they are actually Armenian. Then, all that would have to happen …LOL… is for the name of the country to change from Turkey to Armenia and hey … problem solved. Now would’nt that be perfect justice.
Okay, back to reality. Do either of you know much about the ‘Hidden Armenians’ of Turkey? I’ve heard all manner of rumors, from secret villages where most speek Armenian (this came from a friend of mine who actually experienced this) to millions of people with Armenian grandparents. Again, I stress this as rumors but as they say, where there is smoke, there is fire.
Perhaps you have already seen this, but a really great, and I should say tragic, description of Armenia during the Seljuk and Mongol periods (by Robert Bedrosian) can be found at http://rbedrosian.com/asmp1.htm
Dr Deranian,
I would not be surprised as well if all Turks got tested and turned out to be part ARmenian or 100% Armenian.. I mean come on.. it is a very high possibility.. The ugly Turks took and kidnapped and bought the most beautiful Armenian women… They should thank us for beautifying their race otherwise they would have been hidious to look at.. not only from inside but outside too…sorry.. that is my anger speaks out.. mixed with my passion for my country and bloodline.
However, what I wanted to say is that I also heard about the “Hidden” Armenians.. I dont’ remember if I saw this on TV, or read about it…but Turkey has alot of Turks who are actually Armenians..however, they can’t reveal their identity or else the govt will either hurt them or do things to cause even more destruction for them…. I think this was a program on TV, The history channel.. It was heartbreaking to watch the film… to see that our comrades are hiding behind this ugly Turkish identity to survive in Turkey.. Just heartbreaking…
Gayane
Yes, David…I’ve heard quite a bit about the hidden Armenians. During a recent trip to Turkey, I was told that both Husenig and Palu are ‘full of Armenian families’. Now, these people have changed their names and converted, but at their root, they are Armenians…descendants of people who returned in the 1920s, and recovered their homes in exchange for the name/religion change. I was amazed to hear this, but apparently it’s true…quite a few people returned after WWI and blended into the landscape and forgotten by most of the diaspora.
Hello Everyone:
Not sure? but I think Armenian Weekly has decided that I am a traitor as I am not getting e-mail recently so I am not uptodate with all your passionate debate. But you are doing a great job!!! I see you are all alive and well and that makes me happy :)
Now…I saw the “Hidden Armenians” documentary on http://www.france24.com you may have to search withing France24. Hope you can find it….be prepared for tears. Good thing God promises that, at the end, every one of our tears will be wiped away (Book of Revevelation).
G
Karekin, Armenians did have clashes and tensions with Byzantine (I assume you mean this Empire by incorrectly using the proper noun ‘Greeks’), and several hundred years of the Byzantine rule was, indeed, not that wonderful, but Armenians were never slaughtered en masse as during the Seljuk-Turkish-Muslim years. Do you appreciate the difference? At all? And when the Seljuk hordes invaded Asia Minor Armenians didn’t ‘enable’ and ‘helped’ them. As almost always in their history, Armenians became sandwiched between the two powers and had to maneuver between them to save their statehood and identity. And, no, your statement that there were not enough Seljuks to take Asia Minor (Anatolia is a newest Turkish invention, BTW, there has never been such a toponym in history, try to avoid using it, it insults the historians) is dead wrong. Seljuks came in in hordes, innumerable nomadic tribes… Yes, that’s our history, and I’m proud to have a multi-millennia history. And I know that a nation cannot move on without regard to what had happened in its history. But if you’d like to move on alone with no roots, no historical lessons to consider, no historical lessons learnt, do move on. I should like to see how far you’ll go without this invaluable historical baggage…
Gary,
I searched that website but I could not locate the Hidden Armenians…
I did google search and there is a documentary on YouTube but I can’t check it from work. .it is restricted.. It is called Turkey’s Hidden Armenians.. Not sure if this is the same clip I saw in the past..
Let me know what do you think.. I will check it later tonight..
Gayane
Sayin ( Mr )Armenian Fedayi:
My English might not be as good as yours and may be a typo. Respect to you on that..
Taner Akcam is a hero for you but NOT to me and the Turks. He is a hero to you because he defends something falsely throw at the Turks. 1000 Years nothing happens but Turks decided to kill all Armenians in 5 years. Why nothing happened in Istanbul then.. As US government relocated Japanese in WWII from california to NJ , Turks did the same in 1915 relocated the Armenians to turkish lands in Syria and other parts of the Empire as Armenians took the arms and wore Brit, russian,french and italian army uniforms and invaded and killed innocent Villagers.
relocating its citizens from one part to next for a governemt is only natural during war times .
New York once called New Amsterdam..!!!! change it now….
If anyone comes alone says I am Armenian or something else in Turkey they freeely say it . do not worry about that..
Karabagh name is tried to be changed. Anadolu is Turkish and will stay that way.
Armenians were never the majority in any city in the whole history. I understand being and living outside of your home. Please go back to Erivan or Gumru in Armenia… You are homesick my dear Armenian friend…..
Kurt, Istanbul
Artashes:
Thank you for clarifying that Armenians are orginated in Northern India and travelled to Anatolia to relocate.
So, people all moved around like anyone else, Today’s USA. Who inhabited Brazil, America, Argentina before?
Thank you again for the clarificatons.. it is very important
To Kurt,
First off, glad you are at least engaging discussion. Now we could go through the history till the end of the world, and believe me, there’s probably lots of folks here on this post that are going to do this. I will leave that to them. Instead I’m going to state just a couple of points and then ask you a question. Fare enough?
Question 1: If as you say a genocide against Armenians did not occur, then what happened to all the Armenians? Even Turkish sources will agree that there were very significant numbers of Armenians (millions) in eastern Anatolia. Now that region is officially devoid of Armenians. What happened?
Question 2: How is it that the vast (and I mean like 99 %) number of world scholars call what happened in 1915 a genocide, and yet the Turkish government says there was not? Is it really possible that the entire world is wrong and the Turkish government is right?
I ask these questions Kurt because I have met some very nice and very intelligent Turks. Why on earth would you defend a position (that there was not a Genocide) when so much evidence points to the contrary? It’s no shame to admit this. Rather it honors you to tell the truth under difficult circumstances. So many countries have had similar incidents in their history.
The point here is, that denying the Armenian Genocide has got to be such a tremendous weight on the shoulders of Turks. Why do you want such a burden? Such denial only hardens world public opinion against Turkey to the point that in the very near future, Turkey will become a joke amongst nations.
I say this Kurt, not to offend you, but rather to ask you to embrace what’s good about the Turkish culture. A personal example comes to mind. During the 1895 massacres of Armenians, my family was hidden by a Turkish family, likely at risk to their own lives. Such people are real heroes. Why not embrace such Turkish heroes, instead of defending those like Talat Pasha, who ruined the Ottoman Empire.
There’s a popular American saying that you may have heard, ‘the hand writing is on the wall’. Sooner or later, most of the world is going to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Why? Quite simply because it is the TRUTH. Why not embrace that TRUTH now. I won’t say it will be easy, but most certainly you will be a better person for it.
To all who have provided info about the hidden Armenians of Turkey, much thanks! I’m looking forward to looking at this.
Thank you Dr. Deranian, for explaining things so kindly to Kurt. It’s not his fault that Talaat was such a monster like Hitler!
To: Gayane jan,
YouTube may very well have one about the “Hidden Armenians” . I am postive I viewed it on http://www.france24.com
I am also going to ask my daughter to look you up so I can put a beautiful face to the beautiful very courageous Gayane. By the way…I also read the stories about Gayane & Hripsime and certainly wish you a better life!
G
To Kurt:
As I have said earlier, and with due respect, it is certainly not your fault that the Armenian Genocide took place. You need not deny it either!
As spoken here, and by a multitude of Turkish archival docs., there is overwhelming evidence that the Genocide did occur. You don’t like Taner Ackam because he dug this up and he speaks the truth. Hrant died because he spoke the truth!
We also very graciously, confess and are thankful that some Compassionate Turks, Kurds and Arabs chose to protect the persecuted, starving, sick Armenians even at the threat of “having their houses being burnt down’, on the spot, and immediately, in the middle of the nigh, if they were caught hiding the Armenians, by the Turkish Gendarme and/or Military! This was the street law at the time.
Let me ask you this? Are you able to read Turkish in the Arabic Alphabet? If not , you are at a distinct disadvantage. You cannot read your own history!
Also, I believe your English is quite good. If we had been allowed to live in our Ancestral Lands, our English may have been weaker than it is. We the descendantof the Genocide victims, had to survive in foreign lands. After all our ancestors spoke Turkish better than Armenian. What do you think of that?
They were Citizens of The Osmanian Empire! Some spoke Turkish only like in the Ankara area in 1915. Some even survived because they changed their names too.
Please, please sir, do not get deceived by misinformation…embrace the truth like Dr. Ackam has done and Dr. Deranian, wrote to you.
Ask yourself this question: If Turks & Armenians lived peacefull side by side in Asia Minor (I prefer to call it Western Armenia because history says so) why are we, 7 million of us, now living in countries like USA, Canada, Australia, France U.K. etc. Why would we not live with our ‘friendly neighbours’ as we did 1000 years ago? Much of the friendly neighbours got deceived, by regime, in thinking and believing their ‘friendly neighbours’ were now, all-of-a-sudden the enemy! Thats why.
We live out here because we had no choice…we got kicked out-and-murdered out of our ancestral home. Why? lets not go farther than because Osmanian Turks got kicked out of their conquered lands in Europe. So rather than build their own homes in Western Armenia…the Osmanian Empire chose to exterminate the Armenians to provide for their refugees. It wasn’t the fault of the Armenians that Turks got expelled from Europe. Imperialism & conquering is a dangerous game! What goe around…comes around!
If someone kicks me out of my house, do I have the right to kick you out of yours? and claim that it is now mine? This is obviously ridiculous!
Be reasonable…think before you just speak anger!
Hello Gayane:
Did you find the video? It is at YouTube under “Turkey’s Hidden Armenians” but it was broadcast by http://www.france24.com
Did you watch the video on “Hamshen Armenians” also on YouTube.
G
Recently (2007), I heard a story about a Turkish secretary. She was working in the Turkish embassy in the Arabian Gulf. She was married to an American gentleman and had a daughter. Her child’s name was real Armenian, her friend, being an Armenian kept telling her that her daughter’s name is very Armenian, but she kept denying. Just few hours before moving from Gulf to USA, she told her friend that her daughter’s name is her mother’s; she was afraid to tell any body that she was Armenian in origin, even in the Arabian Gulf, where people are free to speak about their origin and religion and proud to say, “We are Armenians”.
This story is published in the Book “A poetic Soul Shined of Genocides”
ISBN: 978-1-4363-5509-4
Also I have heard from a trustful source that 60% of Turkish Ambassadors have an Armenian origin as they are highly educated and are literate in many languages.
Hamshen or Hamshensi:Turks named Armenians by this word; Armenians have been forced to change their name, religion, and ethnicity (Turkification).
Such prosecution started since the eleventh century and continues till today, on Kurds and most minorities living in Turkey.
Recent evidence shows that most Anatolian natives are of Christian origin:
Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, and Arabs (Aramaic-Syriac) of Christ’s time. (Source:
“Turkey’s Hidden Armenians,” France 24, http://www.france24.com/ france24Public/en/ special-reports/ FRANCE-24-Reports/20070504-Reporters-hidden-Armenians.php).
To Kurt,
I am grateful that you are attempting to engage in a dialogue about a very painful subject for both sides.
I ask you to consider this: If it is true that the CUP moved the Armenians from their homes because it was war and they were trying to secure the land for their soldiers as you suggest was a customary action carried out by numerous other countries during wartime, than why didn’t the Armenians return after the war was over? The Ottoman Empire was dead, Turkey lost the war, world powers were looking over Turkey’s defeated shoulder. Certainly this was a good time for Armenians to come back to claim their ancestral homesteads. Why didn’t they? They left everything behind in the deportations. Why wouldn’t they come back when peace was restored to reclaim what was theirs? Did the vast majority of Armenians really prefer to live as refugees in foreign lands instead of returning to the soil that had nurtured their ancestors for 3000 years? Why are the ancient villages devoid of Armenians, why are so many hidden Armenians living as muslims today? Why are the ancient churches sitting empty, destroyed, crumbling or as goat pens? Why do your own intellectuals risk their lives by acknowledging the facts of 1915-23?
Think! Where are all the Armenians? The truth is obvious.
I realize you are only speaking what you know, what you have been taught and what your conflicted conscience can tolerate, but you have an opportunity to open your eyes to the truth. Join thousands of other Turks who know the truth. Lead your friends and relatives to consider the truth and its ramifications. Tell your leaders to free your nation of the burden of defending itself against what the vast majority of civilized nations acknowledge as truth. It is time.
I as a Christian Armenian don’t hate you or your people, but I hate the lies and I abhor the continued indignity that your Official State denial inflicts on the survivors and their descendants today.
Dear Dr Deranian – Thank you for the link on Armenia during the Seljuk and Mongol periods (11th-13th centuries AD) by Robert Bedrosian. It reconfirms what most of us knew that, in contrast to what people like Karekin are trying to disseminate here, Seljuk-Mongol-Turkish centuries (11th-13th and then 14th to 1915), and not the Byzantine centuries or any other, were the most horrific in Armenia’s multi-millennia history, culminating in the unprecedented by its magnitude mass extermination of the Armenians in the 1890s by Bloody Sultan Hamid and in 1915-1921 by Turkish Nazis Young Turks. Thank you for providing a link that reinstates this historical actuality.
To: Kurt from Byzantine capital of Constantinople that’s been invaded by the Turks in the 15th century AD
You seem to have a fundamental reading comprehension problem, as most Turks posting in these pages.
In my comment I said (do please scroll up and re-read it to understand it): Armenians belong to Indo-European family of nations that originated in Northern India and then spread across Asia Minor and into Europe. Do you see anywhere in this phrase your distorted version as to Armenians “originated in Northern India and travelled to Anatolia to relocate?” Or you just follow the internationally known Turkish way of distorting everything: historical events, architectural monuments, origins of your nation, causes of Turkish extermination of ancient peoples, etc.?
By the way, for your knowledge, there is and has never been such a geographical toponym as ‘Anatolia’, it’s just a newest Turkish invention. The area is historically known as Asia Minor, and the areas inhabited for millennia by the Armenians are known in international scholarly sources as the Armenian Plateau or Armenian Highlands.
People do move around, but some, like your Seljuk-Mongol predecessors and Young Turks, do so by wiping out indigenous inhabitants of those lands with scorched earth, fire, sword, and unimaginable barbarism and settle in their lands. And then they refuse to acknowledge for decades that they have done so.
Also for your knowledge: the U.S., Brazil, and Argentina are immigrant countries. Who inhabited them before? These areas were not as populated and condensed as Asia Minor where already established civilizations existed (Byzantine, Assyrian, Hittites, Armenians, etc.). Pockets of Indians and aborigines existed, and, yes, in the U.S. Indians were mistreated. But you know what? The U.S. government has acknowledged the mistreatment of Indians when it adopted the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s. Turkish government has not.
Well, if, as many writers have said, up to 150,000 Armenians returned to their villages after WWI and recovered their properties. So, they and their descendants are there, disguised as either Kurds or something else, perhaps, but they are there. At a talk given by Kemal Yalcin, I heard that he recently attended a wedding in Adiyaman, and that 1000 Armenian families, all w/ guns, came to celebrate. He said he was the only, unarmed Turk in sight! This is something important to hear, along w/ the information that there may be upwards of 250,000 Hemshinli (Muslim) Armenians in NE Turkey. And, if you include all of those who have an Armenian grandmother/grandfather….it’s quite a few people in Turkey who are alot closer to Armenians than you might think. It may also explain the over the top hospitality you receive once you tell people there that you are Armenian. Unfortunately, the diaspora has a dark image in their minds that they can’t shake, but must if they are to move into a new era. Yes, Turkey will eventually apologize to Armenians…and I suspect it wants to…but, Armenians need to help that happen…not with threats, but with a different approach. It is possible….but only if people can stop screaming ‘murderer’ at every Turk they see. That behavior is unfriendly, nasty and over all just plain unproductive if there is to be any kind of reconciliation.
Hello dear Gary,
I was unable to watch the video yesterday.. However, i will definintely do so tonight…
I have not seen the Hamshen Armenians.. but that is on my list to watch as well.. Thank you for the reference…
Gayane
Dear Gary,
Thank you for your kind words.. I appreciate it.. :)
Please have your daughter look up Gayane Voskanyan on the facebook (my profile picture will bear three ladies).. not sure how many Gayanes are on the facebook but hopefully you will find it.. I will be honored to be your friend..:)
And the story of Gayane, Hripsime (my mother’s name) and Shoghakart is an inspiring yet heartbreaking story.. but it is beautiful to read…:) I am proud to know we had these courageous beautiful women who did not kneel to Turks…
Gayane
Dear Boyajian, Dr. Deranian, Gary and Artashes..
WELL SAID my friends.. Well said… Thank you…
To Taguhi and Karekin,
I’m glad you found the link to Mongol-Seljuk rule over Armenia useful. Reading it was for me, I must admit, difficult in the sense that as you say, the most horrific years in Armenia’s multi-millennia history. It’s where we Armenians could be said, to have lost it.
With this said, I so concur with you Karekin that we Armenians need to somehow get past the last 1,000 years, and especially 1915, if we are to move forward. This is not to say that we should forget history. NEVER! But we must be pragmatic, working with the Turks and others that we can work with, all the while utilizing the potential we have to further Armenian interests.
I have to believe there must be a way to frame a solution to 1915 such that both Armenians and Turks can benefit. Any thoughts on this?
Okay Karekin, you account for 150,000 Armenians who returned and reclaimed their property in the 1920’s and who assimilated as hidden Armenians/Hamshenli. That leaves 1 million plus to account for.
I can’t figure you out. You are obviously well-educated about history and geopolitics. Are you a peace maker? An apologist for the Turks? Or something else.
I await rapprochement with Turkey but the acknowledgment of truth is fundamental to this process.
Vagharshag.. I agree with you 100%..
I too can’t figure Karekin out..
Even though I am all pro having our differences straighten out and move forward..and live as neighborly as possible… but we can’t move forward when the other party is not allowing the process to move forward by altering the history, by lying not only to their own citizens but also to the world (despite all the facts and eye witness experiences), covering up the truth and screamining bloody words trying to put the blame on Armenians.. how can you have normal relations with such govt???
I dont’ hate Turks as one of my comrades already said in one of the comments, I just hate and despise the fact that they lie and deny….
Thank you
Gayane
To: Kurt
Kurt, for your information, genocide of the Armenians started in Istanbul (then Constantinople). 200 or more prominent Ottoman Armenian intellectuals: writers, poets, scientists, musicians, businessmen, community leaders, etc. have been round up and beheaded by the Turks. It was done on April 24, 1915 and this is the reason, by the way, why Armenians all around the world, as well as all people of good will and conscience, commemorate April 24 each year as the Day of Remembrance. After that day a widespread horrific actions began in all Armenian-populated provinces of Turkey resulting in extermination and deportation of ALL Armenians from their historical homeland. Can you imagine what extent, what degree of a calamity we, Armenians, are talking about? It’s like to imagine that a government would give orders to exterminate and deport all Turks from the modern-day Turkey. Turks have not relocated Armenians, they used the relocation fairy tale as a pretext to annihilate the Armenians or starve them to death during the death marches. What you call relocation is death marches for Armenians. During those marches Armenian men, children, women, and elders have been murdered, mutilated, robbed, burnt or buried alive, let starve to death. Noone in the modern world any longer believe that Turks relocated the Armenians. Too much of a documentary evidence exists in the Turkish and world archives that leaves not a bit of suspicion that it was a government-planned, thoroughly-executed genocide. If you don’t believe the world, try to apply as a researcher to your own national archives and read the Verdict of the Turkish Military Tribunal of 1918 and 1920 pronouncing Tallat, Enver, and Djemal – leaders of the CUP (Young Turks) regime guilty in total annihilation of the Ottoman Armenian citizens.
As for your other remarks, well,I think it’s a waste of time to try to reply to them because you just don’t seem to have enough knowledge of history outside the Turkish history books.
By the way, I’m writing from the Republic of Armenia. Yes, it is currently my home, and the cities yopu mentioned are properly spelles Yerevan and Gumri. But you’re correct, I AM homesick because my all ancestors from the paternal side are from Moush and Kars. They say, my grandparents house in the Bairam Pasha district of Kars is still there. And I hope that one day, my dear Turkish friend, I’ll go back there… Thanks for wishing me that!
ArmFedayi….shat lav es grel.. apres…I am with you 100%
You know what pisses me off…???? the fact that they call us, the Armenians selfish, aggressive and liars… they tell us to forget and move on.. to live in peace.. to respect and not demand…WHAT A JOKE!!
To all the Turks and the very small group of Armenians who think like Turks…If we are aggressive and demanding.. why is it that for the last 85 years, the question of Genocide was not brought up as vocally and with such power like we have done in the last 10 years??… ok.. i will tell you… it is because WE, the Armenians, are not aggressive people, we are polite, we ask and we don’t demand… and we TRUST.. we trusted that Turkish govt will do the right thing…HOWEVER, having denial, hearing lies day in and out, and accussations of Armenians organizing the Genocide (even the facts all pointing to Turkey) Turkey still did not come to terms with his past and come clean…. this truly pissed off alot of Armenians…. our cup is full… how can one group of people take 95 years of this emotional abuse and not start acting up and voice their dismay even louder.. having this resolved in peace for the last 85 years or so obviously gave Turkey to re-gain its cover of the truth and allowed them to push the denial even more.. NO MORE.. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH…no man on this planet will take this type of treatment by standing quite with their mouth shut.. i am sure Turkey would love to have all Armenians with their mouth shot like the last almost 90 years.. but no more.. you will never get that.. not now, not ever.. on the contrerary.. we will become even louder and this time, we will demand.. .. …
If Turkey was that genuine and willing to normalize relations with ARmenia and the Diaspora, it could have done it a long time ago.. but yet to this day, Turkey proves itself to be undemocratic, unwilling, and still bloody thirsty for Armenian blood..
Gayane
To Fedayi:
Again every one has their own story. remember that Turkish Padisah has brought Armenian Archbishop to Istanbul.
TUrkish Government opened its archives to scholars but NOT Armenian government.
My Grand dad is from Gumru- is in Turkish. He was kicked out of there and I am not sure his house still there but doubt it.
So, your story to you and my story to me. Again, living somewhere as a minority does not mean you own it, like my grand dad in Gumru…
I have read enough and come to connclusion that we have not done anything just to protect our citizen and property where ever they are.
If you take arms against your country and waer uniforms of french, russian and Brit, then any country has any rights to relocate them as the Turks did..
If you are homesick come and visit then even Istanbul.. I could be your guide my dear Fedayi- can( jan)…
Best regards from on the Bosphorus of Istanbul
Kurt
To Kurt:
I apologize for my comment but there is no other way to describe you…
You are an idiot….. to think that your people were thrown out of their homes and Gumri is in Turkey….. wow.. what a brainwashed individual you are.. i feel sorry for you.. truly do…
Gayane
Well, Kurt from Constantinople,
As the Armenian proverb goes: “du qo eshn es qshum…”, translated literally: “[whatever I say] you still ride your donkey.” Why are you not listening? Because your coward government and misled people are afraid of truth to death. Because it should feel very frustrating to realize that Turks are invaders and settlers; that forefathers and founders of your state were mass murderers and criminals.
Don’t you even attempt to mix up individual cases like your grandfather living in Eastern Armenian city of Gumri and 3 millions of Armenians inhabiting for almost 3000 years the lands of Western Armenia: Kars, Bitlis, Diyarbekir (Tigranakert), Sivas, Van, Erzerum, and Kharpert. If you still don’t get the difference, I feel pity for you… On those lands Armenians lived as majority most of their history until the invasion of Seljuk-Mongol nomads from the steppes of Central Asia in only 11th century AD.
And no, my misled and misinformed Turkish opponent: millions of unarmed, defenseless men, women, children and newborns, the elders were not wearing uniforms or took arms against the country. There were no World War One frontlines in the central eastern and eastern parts of the Ottoman Empire. These people were systematically murdered on the orders of central Turkish government.
I am homesick but my ancestral lands are not in Constantinople, so thanks for your invitation but you’d better invite our Greek friends and serve them as a guide, because in the 15th century Turks invaded Constantinople that was for 1000 years a capital of the Byzantine Greek Empire. My home is in Moush and Kars, and when I return there I hope there will be no Turks so I could get my way through by myself.
Yes, Vagharshag…I don’t disagree that truth is essential, but you know the truth quite well, as does every Armenian, and frankly, probably every Turk, as well. But, screaming ‘murderer’ to someone’s face over and over again is NOT the way to get that person to admit something like genocide, especially 95 years after the fact. You need to understand something about human psychology…and basically, it’s this…if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expect a different result, then that’s the definition of insanity. If Armenians want something from Turkey, such as an apology, there are other, less ‘vayreni’ ways of moving in that direction, but demanding something that can’t be easily given is a recipe for endless anger, frustration and craziness. More hatred is not the answer to hatred. Have you ever considered that aside from avoiding guilt, modern Turkey and Turks might just be plain embarrassed by the actions of their previous Ottoman government? They have gone out of their way to avoid any connection to the Ottoman Empire…and genocide is at the bottom of the list. Just as Americans do not want to admit they live on land stolen from the Indians, neither do Turks. It’s human nature, not something evil, just the way human beings are. So, act human towards your fellow human beings…even if it hurts. You will be a better person because of it.
Kurt, in the service of peace, I would prefer that harsh words were not used against you, however I wonder if you can even grasp the frustration your words evoke. You are perpetuating a bitter denial, minimizing the crimes committed against Armenians and claiming the same was done to Turks. Of course some Armenians fought back. Of course some Armenians joined allegiance with Russians. These are facts. But the scale of the destruction and decimation of the Armenian nation is undeniable evidence of a program to eliminate the “Armenian problem” once and for all. The evidence exists and is acknowledged around the world, even if you refuse to see it.
You have your story and I have mine, but it is Easter and I can only hope that the Light of the World will shine on you and illuminate the darkness.
So then, Karekin, you are a peace maker and a student of human psychology!
I agree with your definition of insanity and I also recognize that “conciliation” is part of reconciliation. But let’s not lose ourselves and our truth by bargaining it away.
I understand that Turks experience embarrassment from association with their Ottoman past and the Young Turk atrocities. I understand the “cognitive dissonance” created by the knowledge that your history lessons were distorted lies. Yet the truth must be confronted. Look to South Africa as one example of how reconciliation based on acknowledgment of the truth can take place.
I agree that yelling “murderer” is counter-productive and that new tactics can and should be pursued in the interest of peace. Our little Armenia has much to gain through a normalization with it’s neighbors, but at what price? Do you have a plan?
This message is for Kurt
Mesrob Kloian
4
Born 1903 – Village of Darman, Vilayet of Erzerum, Turkey
On May 14, 1915 the day before the deportation of our villages, a Turk
official came to Darman and called together the leading figures and
young men of our villages and sent them away. We were told they
would rejoin us after we all left our villages – but we never saw them
again. They gave us one day to get ready. We were forbidden to carry
any weapons, even a pen knife. Any they found with weapons would be
instantly put to death. So the next day we left our villages escorted by
gendarmes. Some were allowed to use carts while others had to walk.
The first day went without incident. The following morning we woke to
find that a hundred Turkish gendarmes on horseback, all armed with
guns, yatagans
Our carts were then taken away from us and we were forced to walk on
foot carrying the smaller children on our backs. We walked all day and were led through desolate
areas where there wasn’t even a drop of water then we camped at night. On the third day of our
march we were led into a narrow canyon where we camped.
The next morning as we prepared to leave the encampment we heard some shots. In the wink
of an eye we were completely surrounded by hundreds of bandits who had taken position around the
convoy. They were accompanied by the Turk gendarmes who had been guarding the caravan. Among
them were Kurds, Turks, Cherkes, Zazas, as many women as men, all armed with rifles, swords,
yatagans, scythes, clubs, and axes. I was beside my mother and father and our whole family was
there together. At the shot of a rifle the massacre began. The ground was instantly covered with
bodies everywhere. My sisters, brothers, sister-in-law, niece, and nephew were killed or carried off. I
saw my father try in vain to save my mother as two Turks carried her off. I ran behind my father as he
climbed a hill. There were a hundred of us running in all directions but we were soon surrounded by
Turks who searched the men, one by one. After taking everything they had, including their clothes,
they cut them down with swords axes, killing them right where they stood. After finishing with the
others, three Turks with swords drawn searched my father. After taking his money, belongings,
whatever they could find, one of them, without warning, thrust a dagger in his stomach. As my father
lay wounded another came over to him and demanded money, which he didn’t have. Without
hesitating, he shot him in the chest. My father held out his hand to protect himself but it was to no
avail. He died in the arms of my older brother Zakar.
I escaped and hid in an abandoned stable that night. I awoke to hear cries and screams, and
through a crack in the door, I saw that under the trees surrounding the camp they had piled up
hundreds of babies that had lost their mothers. They had devised a game, one that was amusing
them. I saw with my own eyes that they were trying with their yatagans to see who could sever the
head of each child with just one blow. For them it was a game. First one, then another, raised his
sword high in the air and, lest he lose his wager, brought it down with shattering force. To add to their
sport, they placed babies at fifteen or twenty meters up against a tree or bush, to see who could shoot
the best. What I saw there that day and in the narrow canyon has haunted me all my life.
5 and daggers, had joined our caravan during the night.
4
owned and operated a sidewalk café, “La Regence,” on the Blvd Du Jeu De Ballon . He died in Grasse France in 1969.
This is an excerpt from a 100 pp. 1959 memoir by Mesrob Kloian (brother of Zakar Kloian) done in Grasse, France, where he lived and where he
5
that was a favored especially for attacks on unarmed civilians.
A type of Turkish sword, referred to as the “sword of Islam.” It is a short, curved, decorated sword, renowned for its strength and sharpness
Well, what is the answer? Of course, that’s not easy, but maintaining peace at all cost and respecting other human beings is a good place to start. To demand human rights or historical truths while simultaneously insulting someone’s ethnicity or humanity is not the way to achieve those goals. Every human being makes mistakes, large or small, and even the most righteous, good person can be made to do bad or evil things to another. This has been proven over and over again. So, endlessly portraying Armenians as ‘saintly’ beings and Turks as ‘devils’ is equally wrong and unproductive. If Turks are to be demonized for 1915, then what about the Arabs who conquered Armenia before the Turks? or the Persians? or the Mongols? or the Russians? And, let’s not forget that from the first arrival of Turks in the 11th C until 1915, Armenians did quite well. Yes, there were bumps in the road, but compared w/ how people lived elsewhere on the planet, Armenians were living very, very well there. They may not have had their own government, but so what? Self-rule isn’t everything, even though we all think it is. It’s very difficult, as we can see today, since no country can exist as an island. But, I maintain that avoiding war, persecution, violence and aggression are the best ways to proceed. Most countries go down that path for power or resources that they THINK are necessary, but are usually not, and in the process, cause a huge amount of human harm and misery that take years to overcome. If Turkey can treat Armenia (and Armenians) as equal human beings, and Armenia the same in return, alot of good can come from it. The truth, like cream in a bowl of milk, will always rise to the top if left undisturbed, where it can be savored by those who appreciate it. At this point, the pot has been stirred quite a bit…let’s wait a bit for the cream to rise before shaking things again and creating a useless mess. It’s already happening…. but patience is required by everyone, on all sides of the matter.
Happy Easter Kurt.
“This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!”
AMEN to that Boyajian… well said…
Happy Easter to all my Armenians and yes even people like Kurt.. May God protect you and shine his light for a better future…
Gayane
To Karekin:
Even though I agree with you that we as human beings, we need to recognize, reconcile, resolve and move on..but lets not get ahead of us…
WHERE in the world did you see us, the ARmenians act “VAYRENI”????? Give me examples please… but keep in mind the following before answering it:
As I said in one of my previous comments.. being peaceful, understanding, quite, shy, and passive for the last 85 years or so about this matter did not work.. we let the govts handle the Genocide recognition and restitution and believed something will be done… the Armenian people did not push the issue with a loud vocal voice and more power in those 85 years or so thinking maybe humanity and justice will prevail but has it ??? the answer my dear Karekin is NO.. nothing has been done.. all these years Turkey used our silence, our shyness, our kindness, our passive manner about this matter to feed its ego, its denial even with more powerful tactics and thought it had us in its palm… well NO MORE… our cup is full.. for the last 10 years ARmenians finally started to realize that being quite and polite about this matter will not solve anything; hence WHY the Armenians around the world started to stand up and shout louder and clearer that this type of treatment is unacceptable..and that we are going to do something about it… you can only poke an animal few times… once you start to harrass it, the animal will get aggressive and attack… well as you can see my dear Karekin, Turkey has done that to the Armenians for the last 95 years.. they have poked us over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.. and guess what??? increased hatred and aggression is expected.. no one will take this type of denial, lies, and disrespect for too long.. we have had it…
So preaching peace between Turkey and Armenia is a wishful thinking.. and I myself would love to see it… but I can’t imagine that happening until Turkey comes with terms what they have done… You speak about hatred and vayrenutyun… I do not and I am sure many Armenians do not hate the Turks but we hate the fact that they lie to our faces and deny until they are blue in their faces.. why do they do that??? well we already know the answer.. this tells me that they are provoking anger.. they are provoking aggressiveness and that does not spell out peace to me.. does it to you???
I support your idea and thought but you are not thinking realistically..
That is my two cents.
Thank you
Gayane
I just shed million and half tears reading this eye witness story that you shared with us..
and Karekin wants us to reconcile and be humans after reading and picturing the horrible experiences our ancestors went through..no matter what Karekin, Armenians can’t be as barbarians and heartless as Turks… We fight with a pen not with a sword like the Turks…
Gayane
My last comment was for Darwin who shared the story of Mesrob.. Thank you for the story… very heartbreaking..one should think that we, the Armenians should get used to reading stories like this but we never do not.. at least not me..
my heart bleeds every time i encounter these types of stories…this pain will never go away and we will not forget and forgive until we get justice and everything else that was taken from us.
Gayane
Karekin jan..
Ok.. I know you want us to live in peace, I know you are spreading a good message and a positive one.. and it seems like ARmenians are not allowing all this good to happen…
Aasa tesnem what would be your solution.. do you have a plan??
If you think we act unacceptable and demand when we should not, what is your suggestion to solve this matter?
Do we go hug it out with the Turks? Do we say ” it is ok, continue lying and denying but we will be your friends” Do we not fight for the Genocide recognition? Do we not work on educating the world about it? Do we not express our frustration and disgust on how we are being treated by Turkey and its citizens??? I do not know.. I don’t have a PHd, I don’t have masters degree, I am not a politician, I am not a lawyer nor a teacher… I am regular Armenian who cares, loves and bleeds for her country, her past and present and wants justice and truth… you may have a plan and you may have an understanding that I may not have.. Therefore, I humbly ask for you to share your solutions (concrete and realistic) on how to fix and reconcile with people like Kurt and his kind including the Turkish govt…
We are all ears.. please advise…
Thank you
Gayane
Karekin, you are still an enigma. You are more concerned with the feelings of Turks than you are with the residual impact of an unacknowledged genocide on the collective psyche of the Armenians. Of course Armenians are not saints and individual Turks are not devils. But what the Turks as a State did to the Armenians from 1915-23 was incomparable evil. Let’s call it what it is.
Yes we were oppressed by Persians, Arabs, Russians, Byzantines, Romans, etc…even our own nakharars. But were we ever systematically erased from the land?
Brother, you have to grasp the difference. You are confusing the forgiveness and tolerance we are to show each other as fallible human beings with the kind of accountability we must require of the State. It is as if you are suggesting that Armenians need to stop being cry-babies and move on with life. Look around the world and you will see that Armenians are moving on, building productive lives as citizens of many countries. But what is the price? Where is the healing? Like children of a painful divorce, the wounds cut deeply and the impact can be felt for generations.
The kind of systematic destruction of a people by the State can not be minimized, should not be tolerated, must not be manipulated as a political bargaining chip. It is our human responsibility to stand against such crimes with a clear voice, even if the accusation is uncomfortable to hear. This is what we owe to our grandmothers… to humanity. This is how to make a better world.
Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur…
To: Vagharshag & Karekin
Wise & appropriate words from Vagharshag to Karekin. We have to be able to differentiate between forgiveness and legal restitution. In Ancient Israel restitution was 4 times the original damage. This is why Zacheas (the Chief Tax Collector) promised to repay x 4. We are not asking 4 x.
G
Happy Easter to everyone!
As usual, the very vocal Gayane, has spoken her mind and asked for ‘the plan’.
The Turkish State is using trickery even right now with these so called Protocols. This is not 95 y/o. The Azeris butchered their Armenian residents as recently as 20 yrs. ago. That wasn’t enough another 7,000 lives were lost in this recent War. It didn’t just happen between 1870 to 1923…it is still happening. Erdogan threatened to deport today’s Armenians from Turkey. Nakhichevan Armenians got kicked out & evidence of centuries long Armenian presence hasbeen/is being erased. These are not friendly events. They are the result of ancient hatred, carried into the 21st century, on innocent people.
Yes it would be great to have peace…but no peace can happen when the fire is still being fueled, as we speak! We don’t need university degrees to see and hear anti humanity facts.
The protocols?
Turkey initiated the protocols?
Switzerland initiated the protocols?
Armenia initiated the protocols?
The oil hungry west without regard to the truth initiated the protocols.
Shine on Darwin!
Thank you for so succinctly reminding everyone of the connection to oil. It has always been about the oil. While Armenians and Turkey duke it out over historical claims there is greedy handy rubbing in some dark (and some not so dark) corners of the world as they wait for the bling to go ka-ching.
Who knew that going green and leaving a smaller carbon footprint had anything to do with helping Armenia!
Jamgoch is right….the west will step on anyone to achieve its goals (oil) and asking Armenians to submit to their wishes via the protocols and using Turkey to do it, without offering Armenians ANYTHING in return is just plain abusive. But, there is a delicate line here….comply and lose many things including history and truth, or challenge it and risk being destroyed. It’s a very tough position to be in, but even though Armenians are not running the show, they need to work this deal to get as much out of it – in writing – as possible, since they can’t stop it. I’m sure Sarkisyan knows very well that war and conflict need to be avoided at all costs, because they have even more potential for pain and suffering for Armenians…and noone wants that kind of outcome. As for a suggestion on how to allow truth to prevail, I really believe that since so many people on all sides know the truth, it can’t be artificially hidden w/ lies and propaganda. At the same time, screaming ‘murderer’ and demanding recognition is not helpful or productive. I live in the US, and if a native American knocked on my door today, demanding that I hand my land/house over to him because it belonged to his ancestors 100, 200 or 300 years ago…what would I do? How would I react? This is the situation people in Turkey are faced with now. They, like me, might want to do something, the right thing, but how is that even possible? I agree that at the very least, Turkey will apologize for the crimes of its predecessor govt., but equally important, Armenians might need to consider that the actions of their revolutionary and political societies were not well received by the ruling classes, and in fact, were used to justify the implementation of genocide. All Armenians suffered as a result as all were blamed for the actions of a few. In the US, Japanese Americans were placed into concentration camps during WWII and Janet Reno ordered the anarchist/revolutionaries of the Waco compound to be destroyed…and this is in recent memory. Power does not like to be challenged…no matter how despotic…this is a rule of history, and rats trapped in a corner will always fight like rats to stay alive. Armenians, as a small people with little power and limited leverage, need to wage their battles intellectually if they want to win, but not in a hostile, racist or angry way, because by descending into bad behavior, truth and fact can easily become overshaddowed by the distraction the bad behaviors or words create. This is counterproductive. So, no one is saying that anyone should forget or dismiss our truths, but just as someone who has been wronged in his life cannot stop walking forward, neither can Armenians. History moves on…
Karekin,
The only reason I stepped into this discussion is your views that seem bizarre and lop-sided to me, I’m sorry to say. What you appear to be doing is suggesting forced parity, forced juxtaposition on disparate parties, criminal vs victim, historical justice vs romanticized pacifism. Allow me to go over them one by one.
Maintaining peace at all cost and respecting other human beings is a good place to start.
No one argues this conventional truth, but why are you addressing your appeal to Armenians? Who rejects establishment of diplomatic relations? Who closed the border with the Republic of Armenia? Who imposed the blockade on Armenia? Who continuously ties the issue of Armenian-Turkish rapprochement with an issue that has no correlation with it whatsoever (read: Nagorno-Karabakh)? If you’re concerned with maintaining peace, who, in your view, demonstrates obviously bellicose behavior based on actions above? Why wouldn’t you call on the Turks as much passionately to maintain peace by acknowledging the truth and respect millions of slaughtered Armenians by repenting, which in and of itself would be a good place to start building mutual respect?
To demand human rights or historical truths while simultaneously insulting someone’s ethnicity or humanity is not the way to achieve those goals…Avoiding war, persecution, violence and aggression are the best ways to proceed.
Correct. But most Armenians direct their criticism towards the denialist Turkish State, and not someone’s ethnicity or humanity. Similarly, no one of Armenians has ever called for war, persecution, violence and aggression. As you may know, this is not a typically Armenian behavioral characteristic. You must have mistaken Armenians with you know whom. Besides, if you think humanity also exists with ethnic Turks, why wouldn’t they express it fully and unambiguously when it apologizing to Armenians? What is in a mere apology that could possibly derogate their humanity?
Every human being makes mistakes—large or small—and even the most righteous, good person can be made to do bad or evil things to another.
Crimes against humanity by definition do not fall under the category of trivial human errors, my friend. In the prevailing majority of similar cases, they’re thoroughly planned, centrally-executed and state-instigated crimes. Just to give you an example, your efforts to minimize and belittle crimes of such a magnitude to just ‘mistakes’ may be considered a human mistake. Good persons could be made to do evil things, but they’re also capable of apologizing to their victims. Besides, no one has made Turks to commit a widespread race annihilation of the Armenians: they acted on the territory of their own state, within the boundaries of their own state authority, following their own government’s orders, using their own military and repressive force, and releasing thousands of criminals from prison with the aim of helping slaughter the Armenians.
So, endlessly portraying Armenians as ’saintly’ beings and Turks as ‘devils’ is equally wrong and unproductive.
Dead wrong. Turks as a nation are not portrayed as all devils, and Armenians are not all saints. It is the denialist Turkish State that is perceived by Armenians as devil.
If Turks are to be demonized for 1915, then what about the Arabs who conquered Armenia before the Turks? or the Persians? or the Mongols? or the Russians?
Dead wrong. None of these occupier-nations has committed anything close to the mass extermination of the Armenian civilization as under the Ottoman Turkish regime. Hamidian and CUP atrocities were unprecedented in the Armenian history.
And, let’s not forget that from the first arrival of Turks in the 11th C until 1915, Armenians did quite well… Yes, there were bumps in the road, but compared w/ how people lived elsewhere on the planet, Armenians were living very, very well there.
Dead wrong. Massive historical evidence demonstrates that the most horrific in terms of civilizational destruction, forced conversion to Islam, and loss of human life were the centuries under the Seljuk-Mongol-Turkish oppression as compared to any other historical periods in the Armenian history. It is the ability of the Armenians to survive that played role in preserving their ethnic identity and civilizational uniqueness. As for the Ottoman centuries, the Armenian millet has been heavily and unbearably taxed as compared to the Muslims. Prohibitions to run for the office, be elected or occupy government positions were strictly observed. Forced military service of Armenians in regiments that were thrown on the front lines against various enemies like canon meat was widespread. Constant pogroms and incursions of Muslim Turks, Kurds, and Circassians on Armenian-populated villages throughout the country were innumerable. It was far from being a good life.
If Turkey can treat Armenia (and Armenians) as equal human beings, and Armenia the same in return, a lot of good can come from it.
The essence of the matter that’s being discussed is not about treating Armenians or Turks as equal human beings. Of course Armenians admit this universal approach. The essence is in acknowledging the truth and repentance for crimes against humanity. As long as Turks deny this they are being perceived as denialist and distrustful state.
The truth, like cream in a bowl of milk, will always rise to the top if left undisturbed, where it can be savored by those who appreciate it. At this point, the pot has been stirred quite a bit…let’s wait a bit for the cream to rise before shaking things again and creating a useless mess. It’s already happening…. but patience is required by everyone, on all sides of the matter.
Who exactly ‘disturbed’ the truth for 95 years that Turks must have long come up with? Don’t you think that truth can venture into being continuously denied and ultimately forgotten if undisturbed? Most Armenians believe that Turks would gladly put the truth into oblivion had it not been the efforts of Armenian advocacy groups, foreign governments, and international organizations that pressure the Turks to acknowledge their history. Exactly how many more decades you mean by ‘a bit’ that Armenians and the international community need to wait? Time has come…
Hi, Karekin,
I’ve got just one question for you after reading your comments. If you’re so passionate, as your comments clearly demonstrate, about maintaining peace at all cost between Armenians and the Turks and the need to respect human beings on both sides, I should assume that you’re making appeals for the same values in the Turkish discussion forums and blogs as well, shouldn’t I? Could you provide me with a link or links to such forums where your appeals or comments are posted? Otherwise, I’d suspect that you’re calling upon Armenians only to follow these universally-accepted norms or that your appeals to Armenians are not so much pacifist per se but merely futile attempts at mind-tilting.
Curiously,
K
Karekin,
I’m afraid you may end up embarrassing yourself by repeating clichés in these discussion pages. Several commentators responded to you more than once that Armenians DO NOT consider modern-day Turks as murderers; that Armenians DO NOT act in hostile, racist or angry way with regard to modern-day Turks. It is the state-sponsored disinformation, historical distortion and lies of their STATE that we abhor. It is the revisionist and denialist actions of their GOVERNMENT that we abhor. Murderers were their forefathers, do you agree with that? Murderers were Hamidian and Young Turks’ regimes, do you agree with that? Who, in your sober view, is more racist: a Turkish state that had annihilated the whole race or Armenians who demand apologies from the Turks, sometimes irately, I admit?
Further, ‘demanding recognition is not helpful or productive…’ What’s this about? How do you build normal relations with your next-door neighbor without knowing that he recognized his crime and is sorry for it? Why do you think insistence on recognition of a crime is unhelpful and unproductive? Had there not been insistence, do you really think that Turks by themselves would acknowledge their guilt? If you think they would, where have they been for the past 95 years? Sleeping in a bear’s lair? Then what is helpful and productive in your view? Remaining silent and uncomplaining like sheep in a slaughterhouse is helpful and productive?
Some of your unfounded and superficial comparisons with American Indians, Japanese Americans, or Waco compound destruction have been disparaged already in these pages and I’d like to avoid reiterating truisms to these superfluous arguments of yours. Annihilation of a whole human civilization CANNOT be compared with individual, fragmented cases of mistreatment. Even IF in some variations we admit these cases hypothetically could be compared, in a number of cases governments have acknowledged and/or apologized to the victims: German government to the Jews; South African government to African Blacks; US government to Indians and Afro-Americans; French government to the Algerians; Holy See of Vatican for the deaths of the millions during Inquisition; Russian government for the deaths of millions in GULAGs during Stalin’s purges; Cambodian government for the mass murders during the Khmer Rouge regime; and so on and so forth…
I strongly believe that in the case of the Turks, given their evasive policies on recognition, distortive state policy of misinterpretation and disinformation of their citizens with regard to extermination of their Ottoman Armenian citizens, heavy lobbying efforts to prevent Armenian genocide resolutions’ passage world-wide, application of article 301 against all those who dare to speak the truth about the genocide, as well as the ongoing blockade, refusal to establish diplomatic relations, and refusal to open borders with Armenia, it is absolutely imperative not to cease recognition efforts. There’s no doubt in my mind that mainly due to these efforts, and not the Turks’ coming to their senses and their expression of humanity, that Armenians were able to elevate the issue to the international level where the Turkish denial of crime is becoming less and less effective.
It is true that power, no matter how despotic, does not like to be challenged. But power is NOT the unique determinant in international relations or in people-to-people relations, for that matter. In a great number of other historical instances, impoverished, barely alive ‘rats’ that were ‘trapped in a corner’ were able to prevail due to resilient spirit, moral legitimacy, and steadfast belief in their just cause.
Armenians have been wronged in their life, but we never stopped walking forward. There’s an international magazine called “Yerevan” published in LA. I’m amazed to see how many talented Armenian individuals all over the world have advanced to influential positions in the government, academia, arts and sciences, business and commerce. The remnant of our historical homeland, the Republic of Armenia, with all its diseases of growth, is gradually becoming more heard on the international arena. We never stopped walking forward throughout our history, especially during the most dreadful Seljuk-Turkish centuries.
And, understanding what you mean by ‘history moves on,’ well, history should not move on for the Armenians alone, it should move on for the Turks, too.
Happy Easter to All Christians:
David: Answer 1) All Armenians were relocated to other parts of the empire were travelling to southern parts. Some certainly and unfortunately parished.. No one denies that. Those relocated to other parts of the empire, some came back to resettle to their lands and all lands were given back to them.
Answer 2) Yes and again and once again Armenians are used against the Turks by the western powers. french recognizes because they are the ones who used Armenians against Turks and the government. This is started with the french schools in Harput, Diyarbakir and many other parts of the Empire in 1800s. Before then there were not even one issues between the rulers Turks and Armenian minority.
Gayane: I am an idiot because I do not accept your ideas.. It is normal to discuss and say I disagree with you. You disagree with me so you are an idiot!!!! I do not think so. You do not need to push up on some one to accept your own ideas. This is what is happening in the world that anger is increasing from your side because many people start to ask this very question in the world and even Glendale, California.
You get so angry if some one objects to your ideas and thoughts.
Fedayi: I am from Istanbul and it was Konstantiniye, or eastern roman empire’ s capital. remember Istanbul was Eastern roman empire. TUrkish people brought Armenians to istanbul as well. 2000 years old Karabagh is now called Arsthak-if spelled correctly- by the Armenians. What do you say to that.
Darwin: whom ever started the first initiative is great either Armenians and/ or Turks. does not matter..It started.. prejudice is at its peak because of not knowing each other…
Everyone has their own story as the Israelis and Palestenians are .. A coin has 2 facades… You ask Israelis they are right and you ask Palestenians they are right..
Garabed: you talk as 7000 armenians killed but not even mentioned about Hocali massacre of azeris and people had to leave their homes and land in karabagh.. Azeris lost in the war and winners are Armenians that does not make Armenians are right…
Vargahrshag/ Boyaciyan: we are proud of our past. Turks are fair people.. We are happy that many Armenians are thrieved in the Turkish rule for 1000 years.
The plan is to start the dialogue and then get people together and see and understand each other.. Prejudice starts with not knowing others and claiming their land as yours. The world acknowledges the territories /boundries.
I see here that you want war to change the territorial claims but I do not want a war but if you start we will defend it. we do not prefer that because war only brings tears to both people.
If I missed anyone apologies.. Again Happy Easter to all Christians and Armenians.
I do want to visit your country, Armenia, Cities like Gumru, Erivan and Sevan lake. Hopefully some day but I do not know if I can visit as a Turk. With above I am bit reluctant though……
Kurt, Istanbul
My previous comment above should have read “greedy hand rubbing”. Sorry.
Thank you to Jamgochian, Karo, Armen G. and Narek for addressing our friend Karekin’s confusing, self-deprecating pacifism.
Curious indeed, Karo. One wonders what could create such a shame-based, self-effacing mentality which seeks to maintain peace at all cost lest one offends the more powerful aggressor. Could it be centuries of oppression followed by deliberate extermination of one’s people? This placating-peace-keeping is nothing new to Armenians. We were forced to do it for years to survive under Ottoman rule. We are adept at getting along and getting on with things despite unfair circumstances and second-class treatment.
Karekin, the time to be afraid is over. The time to be ashamed is over. This is the time for clarity and strength in voice and action. This is the luxury that we in the diaspora have as citizens of open, democratic societies. Reach out to your Turkish friends in your neighborly fashion. Nothing wrong with that. But don’t ask Armenians to move on from the crimes of the Turkish State, past and present. How can we maintain dignity and self-identity without standing our ground firmly?
We are ready to live as peaceful neighbors with those who are willing to maintain verifiable peaceful policies with us. This is not too much to ask. It is not about being “demanding” or “screaming murderer.” It’s about security and parity and the wisdom gained from knowing our adversary’s duplicitous history.
As stated by someone previously, an unequivocal acknowledgment of the facts and a sincere statement of regret is a great place to start the peace process. I for one am not looking for one-to-one reparations for all those injured in the genocide. But open trade across borders, secure travel and energy pipelines and monetary reparations to the Armenia government as the official representatives of the Armenian people would be a great start. Yes, let Turkey rectify things with money, lots and lots of money to shore up our little Armenia and its struggling economy. And if I can dream…give us Masis and Ani and Van.
Turks are not devils, but Armenians are not their door mats either.
To: Armen G.
Very well put. Karekin needs a break also…after all he is still an Armenian!
G
Well, I understand all of your comments and criticisms, but please remember…what I said was this – that demanding recognition is not helpful. I am not saying we don’t deserve recognition, of course we do, just that if you think the act of ‘demanding’ is going to achieve it, think again. No one freely gives something to anyone in the face of a ‘demand’. So, think again, why are you begging/demanding something that you already know to be true? It’s like demanding someone to acknowledge that he breathes air….of course, such a demand is a huge waste of time. On the other end, just because the govt of Turkey might say it doesn’t recognize there is a moon in the sky, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Similar for the genocide. Do you comprehend what I mean, here? They only way they will reach ‘nirvana’ on this issue is for them to arrive at it themselves. And, I believe it will happen and this is in the process of happening right now. When their political leaders want the country to mature and face its own history, then it will happen. Yes, Armenians can and should be of help, but just as loudly screaming to a child’s face that 1 + 1 = 2 doesn’t make him learn that fact, so it is w/ the genocide. In fact, Armenians should be less worried about the Turks, than about those who are manipulating Turkey (and Armenia) for their own goals and aims. Both are being forced into making decisions that are not in their ultimate interests, but serve outside, greedy and evil powers. Throughout history, divide and conquer has worked its magic very well, every single time. This is no exception. Pay attention to history and learn from it, people. for you all appear to have alot to learn…not about propaganda -based history and easy slogans, but real history. You must learn to see Armenian history – the full 10,000 years of it – in the proper context…not just in terms of 1915. 1915 is blinding and distracting, even you, from some very important truths, and this is making you and the nation vulnerable in many other ways. if i can see it, so can others who are working very hard to obliterate today’s armenia for their own ends, and you should look well beyond turkey for the sources of those actions.
Someone suggested Yerevan Journal,Open Y-tube 31th of March
Forget about First genocide and watch the second,
I am shocked to today.
I think one should diagnose and treat the genes of criminals.
I am shocked
Shocked
And shocked………………………………………………….
Who see the film he will never sleep!
Internet is a real invention will change humanity.
Another tall tale for my friend Kurt.
Khanum Palootzian
1
Born 1894 – Village of Darman, Vilayet of Erzerum, Turkey
It was in May 1915 that the Turkish Government uprooted us from
all our villages
sheep, cows, fuel, horses, donkeys, chickens, our furniture, beds,
foods, and all belongings were collected and forcefully confiscated.
They didn’t even give us one piastre
My stepfather, when they were going to kill him, pleaded that they
let him pray before dying. As he knelt and prayed, they took a
sword and cut off his head. They marched us into the mountains,
fields and gorges to die of hunger. All the Armenian men and boys
were killed with axes and swords. And all the women and girls were
killed through thirst, hunger and an even worse fate that I don’t wish
to say. Pregnant women were eviscerated, their stomachs cut open
with swords and their babies ripped out, thrown against the rocks. These I saw with my own eyes.
In the summer heat, we were driven for days and weeks, without food and water, with our
swollen bare feet bleeding from cuts. When we saw water, we ran to drink only to be beaten back
by gendarmes on horseback who carried large wooden cudgels. We were beaten fiercely for just
trying to drink water. We were led through the mountains for two months. On the way, many
women couldn’t take it and, holding their babies in their arms, simply threw themselves from cliffs
into the Tigris River. The Turk gendarmes singled out the prettier girls and women and took them
for themselves. Many, myself included, smeared mud on our faces so as not to appear attractive.
I even closed one eye so as to appear blind and limped. With this and other tricks I managed to
escape being taken.
My entire family, my mother, father, sisters, and brother who was not quite ten years old,
were left as unburied corpses, along mountains, gorges, and fields, left as food for wild dogs.
Darman consisted of a group of seven villages. All were uprooted – that’s several thousand
people. By the time we reached Harput, weeks later, some 45 miles away, there remained only a
few hundred. We knew they were leading us to die, we thought probably to dump us at sea, for
none of us were allowed to leave the convoy nor allowed to drink water or even look for food. If
they saw anyone leaving the group the gendarmes immediately killed them.
2 and tried to destroy us all. Our houses, farms,3 as payment for all they took.
1
orphanage in Mezireh-Harpoot was supplied by Sister Kirsten Vind in Denmark in a private letter to R.K. in 1997 wherein she found and
translated a letter by Danish missionary Karen Peterson written in 1920 describing how Khanum came to the orphanage: “Khanun has
experienced very hard trials. She, with her family, including 14 persons, was forced to leave their house and home in one day’s time. After
wandering two months in the mountains she succeeded in escaping and reached the fields outside Mezireh. Pregnant and with a one year old
child strapped to her back she found our orphanage. All that remained of her family was now beside her, On February 3, 1916, she gave birth to
a girl, which she named Diranouhi after her husband Diran, who was killed. Khanum’s first child never recovered after the hardships she had
been through and died within a few months.”
Excerpted from her memoir, taped recorded in June 1972. Additional information regarding Khanum Palootzian’s ordeal and escape to the
2
Harpoot, 40 miles south of Erzerum, and 30 miles south of Erzingan. It’s new name is Baglarpinari and its coordinates are: “39°15’00″”N”
(Long), and “40°24’00″”E” (Lat.). In 1915 it was a large village of about 330 households located in the district of Kighi, Erzerum Province.
Her native village of Darman had in its environs a cluster of smaller villages. It’s Turkish name was Temran and it’s located 45 miles north of
3
The lowest value coin at the time in Turkey, which was also used in many other countries, and still is today.
Kurt, please re-read my comments. You read me incorrectly.
I do not want war. I want peace, security and dignity for my people. We (Armenians and Turks) have a long way to go in getting to know each other if you think words that advocate for standing for truth are a call to war. They are not. I am one who believes the world already knows the truth about the genocide and I am grateful to receive the recognition of the truth from so many governments around the world. What I want and what would be most-soul-satisfying is if the Turkish State acknowledges the truth. I don’t mean we can’t begin reconciliation without this. I just don’t believe reconciliation can be complete without this.
I do not hate you or any Turk and you have a right to be proud of your accomplishments as a people. I give you that. I ask you to give me the right to own my history without distortion, minimization and denial.
Like you said previously, you have your story and I have mine. I hope we can one day stand shoulder to shoulder, looking at the story and seeing the same thing. For me, forgiveness could then begin. Maybe this is too idealistic, as I think Karekin is trying to say.
Again this is not about devils and angels. This is about basic human dignity.
Dear Boyajian — I believe none of us could have said better. Very convincing and honest words. Thank you.
To all interested in this ongoing discussion, you must read Christopher Hitchens article on Turkish Denial posted this morning April 5, 2010 at Slate.com. Very gratifying to me to read the thoughts of someone who is neither Armenian or Turkish weigh in on the issue.
Narek, Armen G, Boyajian, Darwin, Vagharshak, Gary.. Thank you all for your comments.. havess galisa when i read your comments.. Excellent posts…
Karekin jan…. inch asem tsavt tanem.. I feel you.. i know you feel me.. but when put together it seems like we feel differently when it comes to the question about Armenians and Turks…Your idea of letting the Turkish govt come with terms on their own time will never serve justice to the Armenians.. they will never do it.. as I said in my first post, they had 95 years to apologize and start on the rpocess of reconciliation but all we got is more grief, more denial, more lies, more money spent on covering the truth and more Turkish citizen like Kurt who supports the misinformed and misled history of their govt… it is good to dream.. however, only dreaming and not acting will never take us where we want to be…
Kurt, like i said.. your history and your story does not reflect the truth; hence it is voided in my book and if you wish to continue to push your denial without giving a chance to go beyond your blocked brain filled with full of lies and misinformation will not give you a strong position on this matter…you represent the colony of those who side with Turkish govt…i wish you can learn from these individual Turks whom I have great deal of respect and may God protect them from your evil Govt because they decided to stand up for the truth …please see the list and understand that the list will grow.. whether you like it or not..
Professional Cengiz Aktar
Professor Ahmed Incel
Political Analyst Baskin Oran
Journalist Ali bayrmoglu
JEMAL PASHA’s GRANDSON, Journalit Hasan Jemal
Writer Temel Demirer
Turkish Pariamentarian Osman Ozcelik
Editor Ragip Zarakolu
The Eight President of Turkey- Turgut Ozal and many many more
All these Turks are telling you Kurt from Instanbul that Genocide happened and they are apologizing it.. Learn from your own intellectuals…
Gayane
Could anyone refer me to an Internet link, if it exists, re: a sociological poll conducted in Turkey, beased on which roughly 60% of the Turks did not identify themselves as being of Turkish origin. A friend of mine who travels there frequently assured me there was such a poll. If this so in reality, then I understand why their government sttubornly retains controversial Article 301 of the Penal Code. If repelled, millions of people will reveal their non-Turkic and non-Muslim identity.
Dear Boyajian..
Thank you so much for the article.. I have to say.. it gratified me as well.. a great deal… excellent article.. I even posted a comment to say thank you to the author for writing that article.. i will be sharing this with all of my friends as well…
Gayane
Just read it. Christopher Hitchens’ article is available at http://www.slate.com/id/2215445/
Anahit jan…
Exellent Point… I would love to see that myself…
Show me that most people living in Turkey have Turkish origin….
Like we said in the past..it would not be a surprise if the huge number number of the population end up having an ARmenian origin if there is a DNA testing…..
Thank you
Gayane
http://www.slate.com/id/2249825/pagenum/all/#p2
This link is for the Hitchens article dated today April 5, 2010. The link provided by Armen is for Hitchens article posted on April 6, 2009. That’s last year’s article. A good one too.
To one , who calls himself “Kurt” :
– My family name , which , of course I’am proud of , has a turkish background … or the link to find my true ancestry … Some 300 years ago , 5000 boys were taken from their families to serve for sultan as a “topchu”… What does that mean ? I’ll tell you what : ever since those days , or a little later (when these kinds grew up , revolted against such a slavery and run away from it) , they never returned to their families , resettled among the same ethnic group , founded new “clans” etc. but … lost their mothers , fathers , brothers and sisters … and so on and so on …
Now … I am talking about 300 years ago and 5000 boys . Can you project this tragedy (loosing ancestral roots , parents and brothers and sisters and bigger , extended families , future as a normal human being , etc. etc.) to the whole Armenian nation ? Have you ever considered to get into one shoes , to try to understand , in what state of mind lives “one lost Armenian” 500 , 300 , 95 years later ? And how much this Armenian can trust you ? Or take your argument at all ? Or forgive you ? Or let it go ? or … so many more “or”-s …
I do not consider myself as a any kind of radical viewer from Armenian stand point , but I will recognize friend or enemy by the way (and angle of grimace on the corner of his mouth) he pronounces a word “Armenian” …
As for the “next” 300 years (I mean the last 300 years) … We lost once again a home , family etc. etc. etc. … But once again , we did not lost our memory …
Dear Gayane…I do understand you, but unfortunately, while I think we should not forget history, I think it is a useless waste of energy for you or anyone else to try and correct things that happened 900, 500, 300 years ago, because that cannot happen. This obsessive focus on negative things that took place in the course of history is just plain unproductive, and, it ignores all the positive things that happened during the same time period, of which there were many. I guess that since you dislike Turkish rule so much, you also dislike Greek, Persian, Arab and Russian rule, too? However, do you realize that under Turkish rule …Armenians did very well for a very long period of time? It is only when truly crazy, secular non-Turks took over (the CUP triumverate and Ataturk), that Armenians suffered most. And, that was because their Turkish rulers were not really Turkish at all…they were all of minority background…because all the sultans took non-Turkish wives. In fact, by the 19th C., most ‘Turks’, were not really very Turkish anymore….they were of very mixed background because they intermarried w/ all of their subjects for hundreds of years. This is why being anti-Turkish is kind of absurd…because they are us and we are them. No joke. If you want to identify as ‘Turkish’…anyone can…because it is not an ethnicity, it is a state of mind. This isn’t a negative comment, just an observation. However, it really bothers me when Armenians become so dogmatic, negative and nasty….because it overlooks many truths that they don’t want to acknowledge. It also feeds into a
mindset that isn’t respectful of other human beings…and that’s sinking to a level not unlike that used by the Talaat pashas of the world…which is something no one should aspire to, that’s for sure. It might sound trite and like a cliche, but living and treating everyone as brothers is the key to positive development for all of us who are concerned and involved with this issue…and that’s because yes….we are all brothers and sisters, whether we like it or not. It takes as much energy to be negative as it does to be positive….which would you prefer? Which provides the most improvement and beneficial return on investment? Think about it….
Karekin – You’re back and I see with sorrow that none of your self-deprecating views has changed or slightly progressed. Therefore, I’d like to reiterate a question to which I never received an answer from you. If you’re so passionate and truly pacifist about maintaining peace between Armenians and the Turks and about the need to respect human beings on both sides, I assume you also make appeals for the same values in the Turkish discussion forums and blogs. Am I correct? Refer me to links to such forums where your appeals or comments are posted, will you? Otherwise, I’d suspect that you’re posting comments on these pages just to attempt to mind-tilt the Armenians.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
K
Karekin, you make some interesting points regarding waste of energy, focus on positive rather than negative, and the question of what is a Turk today. However, in my opinion, you are still muddying the waters here regarding basic human tolerance and forgiveness AND official State accountability.
You want everyone to move on; accepting that humans do bad things to each other. Something like: “It happens, but don’t dwell on it. It’s part of the human drama.” This is a valid truism, but not very useful here.
The Turkish State and its agents in the world, spend millions of dollars disseminating misinformation in an attempt to minimize and deny the facts of the extermination of the Armenians from eastern Asia Minor prior to and during World War II. Their (the Turkish State’s) efforts in this regard go so far beyond merely defending against perceived false accusations of Armenians. These efforts constitute an orchestrated lie aimed at making Armenians look like they either deserved what happened to them or that the deaths where unfortunate collateral damage resulting from well-intentioned mass re-locations.
Why expend so much energy to appear guiltless? Why pass laws that punish anyone from talking about the genocide? Why teach lies as history to their own people? Why claim cultural artifacts of the indigenous people of Asia Minor as ancient Turkish treasures?
Can’t you see how these actions continue the indignity of the original crime? How do you “move on” when the offense is ongoing? Don’t we Armenians, at the very least owe it to our brother and sister fellow human beings, to stand up to the bullies amongst us.
I for one, believe it is a much more noble act in the big picture of the human drama to stand for truth and justice, than it is to walk away and allow evil to find it’s next victim.
One of the issues I have with history is that it can be so debatable as exemplified on this post. Please understand, I value history immensely, it’s a window into the past. With that said, how we interpret history can make all the difference.
What I believe is critically missing in the history of the Armenian Genocide are significant feature films. Compare, for example, the abundance and variety of feature films on the Jewish Holocaust. Do people not feel the Jewish Holocaust through films like Schindlers List and The Pianist? In contrast we have only a few films, e.g. Mayrig and Ararat, …, and a few others?
The point here is that the common person, not just the politicians, needs to experience the Armenian Genocide first hand, and feature films are a great way to achieve this. Ideally subjects for these films would be portrayed to universalize certain truths about, not just Armenians, but all of humanity. This I think gets to the heart of some of what Karekin is expressing, i.e. what trumps everything is our basic humanity, that we are all in this game of Life together.
We Armenians do have a historical figure which many believe is our very example of the Armenian Genocide, Komitas. It’s why myself and others are making films, and a play, about him. Check out the following when you get a chance.
http://www.vicdanfilmleri.org/?see=rixa1 – a really great effort by some Armenian filmmakers in Turkey
http://www.komitastheplay.com/ – a very moving play slotted for production
http://www.komitasthemovie.com – a short promo film for the larger feature film about April 24, called Red Harvest
A further clarification on my comment to Karekin above:
When I say we should not allow “evil to find its next victim” I am equating individual Turks with “evil” but I am calling the actions of various Turkish powers that be, past and present, evil.
Oops. Typo..I am NOT equating evil with individual Turks. Feel awful about this typo…
So, ok…we all know that the denial campaign is orchestrated by a cadre within the Turkish govt, probably more out of fear than anything else. But, the reality is…they’re the ONLY ones on the planet who believe their own lies. You don’t believe them…I don’t believe them…no one of any intelligence believes them…they are lies and fabrications. And, if they stopped the lying tomorrow (it could happen, you know), then what? What will you say? What will you do? What will it change? Will it bring back our long lost relatives? I think not. We’ve burned candles for them for 100 years now….do you expect Turks to do the same? I just wonder what you’re expecting, if/when that genocide acknowledgment comes? Then what?
Karekin, good questions.
I for one would like to visit the place where my grandparents came from. I don’t, even though my mother has. Do you know why? Because of the experience I have had of meeting Turks who hated me the minute they found out I was Armenian. I have even experienced this antipathy because of my looks, my Armenian face, before I spoke with people. I don’t want to deal with such things if I go visit Turkey, so I stay away. But I would like to see the place my grandmother was born, and the places she told me about, the weather with all of its seasons, the fruit we don’t have here. I would like to see the snow my other grandmother told me about, and the place where she lived.
I would like to be able for our two peoples to begin the talks that would help us at least to be welcome in our own ancestral homeland, without all the rancor and hatred and tension — or at least far less of it. I would like negotiations to begin for reparations: not because I want to claim any money or anything, but I want us to have the right to visit our home as a people, to be welcome there. And for those who wish to, to find a way to make community there. We need reconciliation and dialogue on some level to take the next steps to put our pieces back together from tragedy and to HEAL that tragedy.
Obviously, I believe that Turkey needs this too. Unfortunately, the dominant ideology tells everyone to just deny as the solution, to wipe out the memory of minorities’ existence. This is obviously not going to happen at this point.
But nothing can start without recognition.
PS We as a people — as other minorities like the Greeks, for example — should be able to lovingly restore our own monuments, ancient churches, etc. This preservation is essential for any cultural values that the world honors. I would like these to be preserved, visited, known. This cannot happen without recognition as the first step.
To Dr. D. Deranian:
Excellent job of the short movie on Gomidas Vartabed!
To Janine:
Yes, I feel the same way & so do many others. It would be great to visit where both sides of my family came from. Kayseri is quite West so chances are it will not be part of a possible New Western Armenia if and when that happens?
Like you say even a visit would be great! A few years ago a young Turkish man bought the property next door to me. He tore down 1 old house & built 2 new smaller houses…sold them and I now see him infrequently. We got along famously…I did some work for him, and he wanted me to go visit Turkey with him, in late 2009. He says “Gary…we will be friends forever!” But I still feel it is risky for an Armenian to visit Turkey at this time…though many do. I was also invited by an Armenian hotel owner to visit. This place is in Western Turkey.
Thanks for sharing Janine!
G
To Gary (Garabed) Malkhassian:
Much thanks for you comment about the film on Komitas.
Karo and Boyajian… Excellent comments.. I would not say any better…
Karekin axper… I dont’ know how else to say it…
Janine— you are gorgeous because you have the ARmenian face.. and don’t you forget it..:) and if you have been mistreated by the Turks, then I hope that they will get their own one day.. what goes around comes around… and excellent points to Karekin’s questions… I agree with you wholeheartedly and I will be even bolder and say that we would want ALL of our lands back.. we had been cheated out of rights too long.. no more… lets see how it feels to return everything that NEVER belonged to Turks…
Dr. Deranian did a great job.. Very proud of him.. and I agree with him.. making movies is a great way to spread the truth about the Armenian Genocide… in the past, many tried but were shot down by the govt… we are fortunate to have a better chance now than ever to start producing these types of movies… and I pray to God Dr. Deranian for you and your efforts and hope to God that one day, you will produce enough movies to be shared with millions..
Gayane
Gayane:
“…I am sure many Armenians do not hate the Turks but we hate the fact that they lie to our faces and deny until they are blue in their faces.. why do they do that???”
Why, it’s easy to answer. As Hrant Dink once said in an interview:
“They are denying it because they are aware that what happened is despicable and they think ‘That cannot be what my ancestors had done. They cannot be ruthless murderers as described.’ “
Hello Janine….Well, the reality is that you can go to Turkey and visit your family’s village, maybe even find their house. If you happen to have the original Ottoman deed and no one is living in or on the property, you can have it back according to Turkish law. I know there’s a slim chance of that, but you never know. In any event, recognition and/or an apology will come eventually, but it cannot come by using the methods Armenians have used thus far. That’s why I was very happy to read about Khachig’s trip to Turkey….the first visit is both exciting and sad at the same time….but it’s very important. The more of us who visit the better it is and will be for everyone. We should not turn our backs on Turkey, because it’s turning our backs on our own heritage. Turkey wasn’t some backward colony, it was one of the world’s most important and sophisticated empires for hundreds of years, and the center of the Armenian world, as well. Don’t forget that, because there’s alot of history there just waiting to be rediscovered. As for the reaction of Turks,that’s unfortunate, but I’ve had just the opposite happen… and have always felt very welcome in Turkey.
TO JANINE, GARY, AND GAYANE
YOU GUYS REALLY DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABT!
TURKISH PEOPLE IN GENERAL DO NOT HATE ARMENIANS ON THE CONTRARY.
JANINE, I UNDERSTAND YOU HAD AN INCIDENT WITH A TURKISH PERSON. WELL I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IT WAS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT.
GARY, IF YOU WANT TO VISIT KAYSERI WHY DON’T YOU VISIT IT? KAYSERI IN FACT IS A VERY NICE CITY KNOWN IN SOUTHERN/CENTRAL TURKEY FOR ITS SMALL SKI STATION. WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?
GAYANE, EVEN YOU YOU CAN COME AND VISIT YOUR ANCESTRAL LAND.
My sincere appreciation to you Gayane for your thoughts and prayers for films about the Armenian Genocide.
Regarding SG’s comments, i.e. Hrant Dink’s quote about Turks not being able to accept the despicable acts their recent ancestors have done, we Armenians need to help (I emphasize the word help) the Turks to see a different model, one that condemns the criminals (like Talat Pasha) and lifts up as heroes those Turks who acted with courage, i.e. protected Armenians, during the Genocide. The film I’m working on, Red Harvest, does exactly this. One of the main characters, Asaf, portrays a person that actually existed who risks everything to help Armenians. In the end, he pays for this with his life. Talat of course is the chief antagonist of the film.
The idea here is that people generally are not black or white but rather shades of gray. We all struggle with right and wrong in this life, the question remaining, as to what we do with that knowledge.
Bravo Khatchig. Reparations for the genocide is indeed a necessary part of genuine reconciliation with Ankara that we shall see through to fruition. Like most other victim groups that have suffered genocide and then recovered their stolen assets over time, we are no different and should not settle for dolma diplomacy instead. When will Sarkisian devise a set a reparation protocols with Ankara?
Thank you, Gayane jan… You should read, if you haven’t already, what this shur tvats Karekin wrote in Sassounian: Did Turkey’s Ambassador Really Lobby for Passage of the Resolution? I quote: “if anyone really wants to avoid an alien religion, they might do better to go back to the original Armenian sun-oriented pantheon and Zoroastrianism, instead of worshipping the ideas of some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks.”
Insulting Our Lord and Savior… Even a Turk wouldn’t have done it…
Jesus Christ!
Taguhi
Look Takuhi…please grow up and please, face the facts: Christianity is not an Armenian religion. This is not an ‘insult’ to anyone, it is fact. However, if you really insist on seeing it that way, you may need to expand your consciousness and realize that the real message, at least as interpreted by the Armenian and other oriental orthodox churches, was that Jesus was a divine figure..(this is monophysitism)…meaning, that he was God. I’m not arguing that, however I see and interpret this teaching as saying to us that we are ALL divine creatures (we are created in God’s image, right?), and if we act in a divine way, we will be kind and respectful of every human being…Christian or not. As a result, there will be less war, less injustice, less torture, less human indignity and more humanity and love for all humans, no matter who they are. So, I urge you to learn about and adopt a more authentically Armenian version of Christianity, as it really is very special and unique in the world, because it is respectful of others and does not preach an arrogant, superiority…it knows how to live w/ others… and has admirably incorporated many components from its earlier religious past into the new religion – that by the way, was adopted solely for political reasons, if you check your history books.
Listen Karekin, don’t you dare to tell me to grow up and expand my consciousness without even knowing who you’re exchanging comments with. I consider it below me to derogate people like you, all I can do is to pity you and ask Lord Jesus to forgive you for insulting Him as ‘some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks.’ It is this insult to our Savior and not your perverted comment re: Christianity that outraged me and many commentators here. You’re free to interpret Christianity however you wish, but don’t you dare to insult Jesus with your dirty words. How can anyone believe that your appeals for love, compassion, humanity, and kindness are genuine when you insult the Divine One, whose preaching was precisely about Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness for all the mankind?
Christianity has been the Armenian religion for 1700 years. The fact of the matter is that it was Armenians who adopted it as an official religion in 301 AD under the King Tiridates III. And Armenians have done so WILLINGLY, for your knowledge. No one forced us to adopt the new religion, as your Turks practiced with Islam imposing it on Armenians under the threat of death. Do you appreciate the difference or I need to repeat the truism?
Yes, Armenian Christians need to forgive, for it is written in the Holy Bible based on God’s words: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their [enemies’] foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them.” (Deuteronomy 32:35). All Armenians want is for Turks to apologize, because we know that their punishment will come from God. Is this too much to ask for, Karekin?
A little knowledge can be a tricky thing. It can easily lead you down the wrong path if not handled with clear motives and understanding.
I don’t claim to be a religious expert, but it is my opinion, that there is some misconception regarding the characteristics of a divine nature in Karekin’s comments above and problems with the conclusions drawn from these misconceptions.
I agree that, if we accept the Christian teachings, we are all created in the image of God. But what is this image? If we are created in His image, how are we to behave. Loving? Yes. Respectful? Yes. Read I Corinthians 13: 4-8 for more examples.
But this is only part of the picture. There are numerous examples in the bible that paint a picture of God as a being that abhors sin and exacts justice. And Jesus Christ showed the money-changers, in no uncertain terms, what he thought of their desecration of His father’s house.
I take my example from both parts of this divine image. I don’t hate the Turks. I don’t seek revenge on them. I have and would again gladly sit down and have coffee/tea with a Turk who wanted to engage in a fair dialogue about the genocide or who just wanted to be my friend. But I can’t simply turn away from the atrocities that happened and toss them up to the mistakes of fallible beings. My God-created nature requires me to seek a just resolution, as well as a reconciliation with my enemy based on the tenets of love shown to me through my faith.
For me, this reconciliation requires first, an admission of guilt, followed by an attempt at making restitution. What form this restitution should take, I am not sure. But I don’t believe that seeking a just resolution means you have not “expanded your consciousness” sufficiently. For me, it is a moral imperative to set the world right when things have gone so horribly wrong.
And yes, Armenians have a beautiful and unique interpretation of these divine teachings based on our 3000 year old history in that part of the world and it has been incorporated into our Christian expression. But humility and lack of “superiority” doesn’t equal tolerance of gross injustices that offend God and civilized humanity.
Yes it would be a better world if people behaved more like their divine nature; more loving, more just, less war, less violence. But I don’t think allowing violence and injustice to go unchecked is the way to this better world.
All that being said, I sure would love to hear more dialogue about what reconciliation and restitution would look like.
To:Boyajian
As always…wise and appropriate comments. Thanks
G
Karekin (is that really your name or are you using this to disguise your identity?)
You are still the enigma that we labeled you in the past.. you are a confused individual… I tried to understand you; however now I don’t want to understand you because I dont’ really care to understand you.. You speak of unity, love and peace.. yet you dont’ see that your words do not match what you are yourself… Few of my commentators requested to see your comments on Turkish sites; yet no response from you.. why is that? is it because you are a fluke, fake individual who spreads confusion and mixed emotions only among Armenians? Why don’t you show us that your passion, love and peace wishes are directed to Turks as well… please do share…
Tagui jan.. thank you so much for sharing the link with me.. Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to read any of the comments on that site…but I read every single one of them, 100 + comments after I clicked on your link… I am disgusted by what Karekin said.. NO ONE and I repeat NO ONE should insult the fairth that Armenians accepted as their state religion… The religion that many died for.. Many shed their blood in vein because Turks wanted us to forcefully convert to Muslims… NO ONE should dare to insult our Savior .. and I am 100% with you and I support your comments.. Shame on Karekin for saying what he said…and I know that any man who speaks of Devil and follows the Devil’s work will answer to God when the judegement day comes….
Also, Taguhi jan…I read comments from Ahmet, Robert (his Turkish brother), Pontus, AB, Burak Con, ect .. as usual, their uneducated, blocked minds do not allow them to get over their insecurities and ignorance to open their closed eyes and finally see the situation as is… however, as you, myself and millions of Armenians learned from our Jesus Christ’s teachings, we need to forgive as that they don’t know what they are doing… we need to forgive as they themselves do not yet understand how ugly, dark and vicious their true nature is..until they come to grips with their inner selves and seek out the truth and purity, they will not stop spitting the venom that they keep in their hearts and minds..
Ahmet is one individual who needs cleansing of them all… I read his comment where he said something like if Armenians knew Islam and Muslims as well as Turks know, Armenians would have converted a long time ago.. I will rather accept death than convert to Islam… You small minded sick individual…
AB,
Thank you for allowing me to visit my ancestral lands..however, I don’t need your permission or any Turk’s permission.. I will visit my ancestral lands when it is ours again.. as long as it is under Turkey’s claws, I do not feel safe or comfortable to put foot on it… even though my heart bleeds when I think that instead of having its lawful owners taking care of the land and country, it is the under Devil’s command..
Boyajian jan… as always, your comments as exceptional… I get gratitude reading your comments.. Katia is another individual I admire a great deal.. Her words are as powerful as yours…
Dr. Deranian, I can’t wait to see the finished film.. please let us all know if you need anything.. we will work as one and help to make this a reality to be shared with millions…. I hope everyone on this site agrees that only together and supporting each other, we can become successful.
Thank you to all my Armenian comrades for your comments as well… I truly value and proud that we have people who are willing to fight and stand up to injustice and unfairness…
God Bless you all
Gayane
It’s quite sad to see my fellow Hayrenageetsner exposing their suspicious, closed minds yet again. If anything, Armenians need to realize that we can be our own worse enemies, sometimes. Seeing a ‘Turk’ behind every curtain is just plain stupid. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Moreover, no one seems willing or able to look outside the box to find new solutions to nasty old problems, and can only support those who are in complete agreement w/ them in a mindset that doesn’t work. This is the classic definition of a rut. If you can’t get out of it and be open to positive change, that’s where you will stay, and continue to complain forever. At least Khachig has made an intelligent effort…that’s more than most of you seem capable of doing. Though, you probably accuse him of being a ‘Turk’ for all his hard work, as well.
Karekin: My negative experience with Turks has been with more than one person. And they were not among what people might commonly refer to as the less educated; the people I tend to meet are in high academic circles. One supposedly highly regarded professor of law and his wife were a case in point. They were angry at me the moment I introduced myself as Armenian. I said nothing about the genocide, just that my grandparents also were from Turkey. But I got a stern sort of irate comment: “I’m not convinced there wasn’t killing on both sides!!” I just didn’t say anything; it wasn’t the place for that kind of discussion. I tried to have a conversation. I was polite and told them I was happy to meet them when they were leaving, which received a sneering laugh. The wife wouldn’t even speak to me. Kemalism is bad for those raised with it and steeped in its values. And guilt works in these people as if they are personally insulted to think what could have happened. The reason they behave as if they do is because they expect me to hate them, and I don’t. The truth is the truth. On the other hand, I have also pointed out positive experiences with Turks — at least four very memorable people who understand openly full well what happened and were completely accepting of it. Unfortunately they are in the minority. In some way I suppose it is possible that average people may be more ‘kind’ than the more highly educated.
But truly, Christianity insists that repentance comes with forgiveness. The admonition to forgive your brother seventy times seven comes with a set of instructions for how things work (that is among Christians, btw) and a process of discovery of truth of the transgression. Forgiveness without truth does not have much meaning except in terms of personal ability to give up a situation to God, to not seek revenge, etc. But to settle with justice is not something that is excluded in mercy! Justice and truth are foundations of the facets of the reality of God. Not lies; the father of lies is another name for that which is against God. To accept lies is a distortion of the principle of forgiveness, and sweeping under the rug the murder of people because they were Christian is to ignore the reality of what happened. We cannot agree to that; we can’t be complicit in that value system.
As for Christian doctrine: all Christians who accept the canonical bible text understand that Christ is both God and man – that is, the Son was incarnate as Jesus. Armenians have been labeled monophysite when in fact a joint conference of Greek and Armenian Orthodox theologians concluded that the theology was identical — they just used different terms for the same concepts.
I may still consider visiting Turkey but really I am very wary of it.
PS We are made in the image of God — and we have the free will to distort and even destroy that image by our choices. Jesus did not embrace everybody as they were – he told them the truth about what they were doing. He engaged in open conflict, and very harshly condemned the religious leadership — those who knew better but would not open their eyes. Think about how that relates to what you are talking about. We go toward that image by practicing repentance and changing. We don’t accept that people are perfect without this process; that is declaring oneself a god, the opposite of humility.
GAYANE,
YES, YOU DO NOT NEED MY PERMISSION TO VISIT IT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO WAIT FOR IT TO BECOME YOUR LAND, THEN YOU WILL NEVER VISIT YOUR ANCESTRAL LAND…
Wow Janine, your words today are powerful! Thank you for expressing so clearly the interrelationship between forgiveness and truth seeking and how tolerance of untruth distorts forgiveness. I support your views on this. Thanks, also to Gary and Gayane for your supportive words.
Karekin, you continue to confuse and fascinate me. I always hesitate when considering to engage in dialogue with you. First, because you don’t seem to really consider others’ ideas before pontificating. And secondly, because I am very confused about your motives. Are you truly interested in elevating the consciousness of “suspicious, closed minded” Armenians? Or are you purposely putting out confusing and inconsistent rhetoric to obfuscate the issue? Maybe you are just embarrassed by those who speak with anger or righteous (not self-righteous) indignation toward denialist Turks. Where is your divinely inspired sense of empathy for the average Joe Armenian? I don’t get it.
Maybe you are a Buddhist and that is what informs the pacifism and detachment you express. Your comments are full of truisms about maintaining a peaceful mindset and avoiding negative “ruts”. While these truism are great when applied to one’s personal life, I don’t think they are very helpful when it comes to the Armenian question and the Turkish State.
Please consider this: A State is more than the sum of all its people and its power is greater than the sum of the power of its individual members. Because of this, I believe a State’s responsibility with regard to its power and the consequences of its actions is that much greater than an individual member’s responsibility. It’s similar to the case of a corporation that is responsible for releasing harmful chemicals into the environment, poisoning water supplies and causing harm to people in its community. We don’t go after the individual scientist or factory worker who was simply carrying out his duties as an employee of the corporation. But we as a society certainly expect the corporation to take responsibility for the harm it causes and to make restitution, to both the community and to the individuals harmed. Would you argue against this principle? Can you see the parallel with Turkey and those who want Turkey to make right what has gone wrong?
Consider also this: For a long time, whenever someone searched on Google for info on the Armenian genocide, Google permitted Turkish organizations to post pop-ups claiming to offer the really story of the genocide. But Google was confronted with its own motto to do no harm and called to task for allowing denialists to distort the historical record. Now Google no longer permits these pop-ups. Isn’t this a good thing? A positive contribution to the world? A direct result of vocal objections to allowing a “wrong” to continue.
To Janine:
Excellent words. You are right, sinners have to be confronted in love & truth! If they don’t repent they will pay the price. Thank you for telling it as it is!
G
Thank you, Gary & Boyadjian
To all: I was thinking more about this today. I liken it to a family in which there has been some abuse of children. What do we do? The hallmark of dysfunctionality is denial, lying, pretending nothing is wrong. But that doesn’t help anything. And forgiveness becomes impossible on the child’s part if the original abuse is ongoing, the wound opened over and over again. In that case, forgiveness may only come by distancing, avoiding contact, but never by lying or denying. The child has to at least tell the truth to someone, acknowledge the truth for themselves. To be complicit in the denial is just to propound the sickness, the evil, and not to heal. Maybe others can think about that analogy to a country.
boyajian – sorry I spelled your name wrong. Editors: feel free to correct the spelling in my previous post and not print this
AB,
I would request that you turn the caps key off… If you have not been trained on e-mail or writing etiquette, writing in caps means yelling at someone… Therefore, it is only respecful to your reader if you direct them in lower case rather than caps.. I am not blind and not stupid.. I can’t read just fine and I can see just fine…
And if you think we will not have our lands back one day, think again..
Gayane
Well, states/nations are complicated organisms, not unlike individuals, just on a larger scale, so all the thoughts, truisms and psychological issues are very much the same. When a state/nation, exudes anti-social/non-peaceful behavior, and engages in anger, violence and war, there will be a backlash, usually negative. The results of the US folly of war is being felt everywhere today as the country is now bankrupt…which is very serious, but standard outcome of emptying the treasury for useless wars. The same thing has happened throughout history, back into very ancient times. This is what happened to many empires along the way, including the Ottoman Empire, and led to its demise, along w/ all the associated (and needless) death and destruction. War, anger and violence are never, ever the answer, either on a personal or state level. At the same time, I do agree w/ Janine’s comments on denial – that too is destructive. But, the way to get past it is not thru confrontation or more denial. Another truism is that everyone and everything in the universe needs and will move forward, not backward. The goal is to do so in the most positive way possible. They may sound like cliches, but a rising tide does indeed lift all boats, and every action results in an equal and opposite reaction. And, let me just say that if being Christian is truly important, then so is turning the other cheek, because you really can’t just pick and choose only those behaviors you approve of and ignore the others. I really don’t remember Jesus suggesting that anyone hit someone back…for any reason.
Gayane
You are a real brave woman
No one should suppress you .
Who slays will not win
One day the smashed skulls
Will speak was was true–
Narrating what slayers did.
No one can grave justice,
Even after hundred decades.
If we will not see prevailing
Our grandchildren must see.
Arriving Cohorts have Internet rays
No one can decay.
GAYANE,
I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE BLIND OR STUPID.
BUT IF YOU REALLY THINK THAT TURKEY WILL RETURN YOUR ANCESTRAL LAND BACK TO YOU, YOU ARE REALLY LIVING IN A WORLD OF DREAM.
IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN YOUR ANCESTRAL LANDS BELONGS TO OTTOMON EMPIRE/TURKEY FOR OVER 500 YEARS (EVEN MORE).
YOU SEEM CONFUSED IN YOUR HEAD : RECOGNIZING THE WRONG DOINGS OF 1914 IS NOT EQUAL TO GIVING ANY LANDS!
PLEASE YOU THINK AGAIN AND COME BACK ON EARTH…
Janine, I agree with your analogy to abuse, and it is not confined to cases of child abuse alone. It easily applies to others cases of abuse.
And Karekin, I really like the image of the rising tide, but I don’t think a rising tide of evil should go unchecked. Also, I don’t hear anyone on this site advocating “hitting back.” Rather, I think people are struggling with how to come to terms and “turn the other cheek” with an ongoing offender. Several people have tried to make the point that the Turkish state not only denies and distances itself from the original atrocities but also engages in practices that re-offend. I don’t doubt that most Armenians desire a rapprochement with Turks, and don’t hold individual Turks responsible for what happened 100 years ago. But like the abused child, they want to have their truth heard and acknowledged by the abuser in an effort to begin the healing. Is healing impossible without this? No, but it is very difficult for the abused one to negotiate the irrational feelings of self-blame as they try to process the events, and it is this self-blame and self-deprecation that leads to the dysfunctional denial, psychopathology that Janine alluded to. It’s a universal human need to struggle with questions of cause and effect and to ask the Why? questions. It is very helpful in the healing process when the abuser owns his/her responsibility.
Sorry but who is suggesting we hit Turkey back? Has anyone suggested committing genocide that you know of? How does justice under international law — and calling a crime by its true name in legal bodies around the world in accordance with international law and agreed-upon human rights standards — suggest “hitting back” or warfare? Or meting out an eye for an eye? It does not!
Turning the other cheek is in my opinion not meant literally in the gospels. The Sermon on the Mount teaches not to engage in revenge, and it teaches the value of mercy. But it does not preclude justice or exempt it! On the contrary, it fulfills it. As with many other stories of Christ, the reality of the whole is what is important. He did not use violence except to cleanse the temple — would you say the same thing for that action? That he was hitting back?
Karekin – I thought you insulted Jesus on these pages and being a ‘peace-loving’, ‘compassionate’, ‘kind’, and ‘forgiving’ person (at least these are the virtues you advocate here and, strangely, to Armenians only), you never apologized to us for your blasphemy. And now you’re bringing up some postulates of Jesus’ teachings? Ugh… I think the best thing for commentators in these pages would be to forgive and forget you together with all nonsense and mud that you’re disseminating here…
Gayane, boyajian et al – I think it’d be better for us and for Karekin, too, if his controversial comments are left unanswered. Let him talk to himself, or, even better, switch to the Turkish side now after he’d worked so hard to mind-flip the Armenians. Isn’t he the one who tends to force parity on the murderer and the victim, the invader and the settler, the destroyer and the builder, the denialist and the justice-seeker? Well, if he’s a true advocate for peace, compassion, kindness, and forgiveness, let’s now see how he addresses the same universal virtues to the Turks…
Gayane – A couple of commentators made a similar comment in other discussions to this AB guy re: turning caps key off, but this Turk appears to have a serious dysfunctional problem or is just being cynical to the extreme. Just ignore him… Don’t you know that the best way to defeat the opponent is by ignoring him or her?
To: AB
Do you think it us unfair to ask Turkey to return Armenian property back to the Armenian heirs? Armenians live in the Diaspora today simply because they got forcefully removed from Western Armenia from 1860’s to 1950. Most died horrible deaths. Some of us survived because God is on the side of the persecuted. We didn’t choose to live out here…our ancestors lived in Western Armenia with our neighbours, the Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians etc. Just because Europeans kicked Ottomans out of their countries…did that give Ottamans the right to kick our ancestors out of our Western Armenia? Ofcourse not this is not logical!
Ottomans (predecessor of today’s Turkish Republic) paid the price for invading Europe. They got kicked out and had to return the invaded lands. Look at the maps to see what the placee were called before Turkish invasions.
Consider this my dear participant. If I were to come and kick you out of your home and claim I now own it? Does this illegal act give me ‘title’ to your property? I am not sure this not so in Tureky. Yes, even if I deprive you, of your home for as long as 500 yrs., this does not mean I own it. Sooner than later I must return the property to the rightful owner! Armenians were on the land before Turks’ invasions. Many of the other nations, Ottamans conquered, have had their property returned, long ago; why not the Armenians? And Assyrians etc. Are Armenians less human than Europeans?
Now the real question is this. Will Turkey return the forcefully acquired property back to the rightful owners? When?
We all have to do the right thing! Allah wants you to do the right thing! And you know this in your heart. Do you obey Allah?
The Supreme Ruler of the Universe will judge us all; and soon!
Point taken CDEFG.
Anyone want to discuss their ideas of what reconciliation/restitution could look like?
Gayane and CDEFG,
If to make me turn the cap key off is such a victory for you, I can grant it to you free of charge.
CDEFG,
I think you really have some problems in your head. What does using cap key to do with being “cynical to the extreme”?
AB,
I don’t think that we would reduce ourselves to fighting with the Turks so you may consider making you turn the cap key off a victory. I think commentators here merely invited you to follow rules of written communication that you appear to be unaware of or disrespectful to. So keep your granting us a victory free of charge to yourself. And keep the change, too…
One may have problems in one’s head when he repeatedly continues making the same mistake despite the warnings. Just FYI: When you type in capital letters it is fine for emphasis, WE WON or THANK YOU, but the speed at which people read is 12% faster with both upper and lower case and reading in all capitals raises blood pressure in readers by 5%, so there is physiological evidence for typing in ALL CAPS BEING YELLING AND CYNICAL. For example (and for example only): “YOU RUDE SOB’. People take offence as when typing with capitals it is as though you are shouting. You can use capitals on some words when you want to emphasize them for e.g. “I would LOVE to go on vacation, I could really do with the break…”
Concerning reconciliation/restitution I would propose a somewhat radical and likely controversial approach which could be called the Urartu solution. Before describing such a solution I feel it necessary to explain my motivation which largely has to do with the Kurdish Question. Essentially, the Kurds now live in historical Western Armenia. They have had families and homes there now for at least three generations. What are to become of these people who, despite Kurdish participation against the Armenians in the Genocide, are now largely in support of the Armenian Cause? This may not be fare for us Armenians, but it is nevertheless the reality on the ground today.
The question naturally arises then, how can Armenians and Kurds live together on the same land? Now if you don’t look at history too strictly (Kurds as Medes, Armenian tribes coming from Thrace, etc.), it turns out their was a solution for Armenians and Kurds on the same land some 2500 – 3000 years ago. It was the federated state known as Urartu. There the peoples of eastern Anatolia lived together in a prosperous state that could hold it’s own even against one of the most powerful states at the time, the mighty Assyrian Empire. What about the possibility of Armenians and Kurds joining together in some kind of federated state, with states to the north of Lake Van being under Armenian regional governments and Kurds governing south of Lake Van. A central government would be constituted of both Armenians and Kurds. The country could even be named Urartu.
I must emphasize that as I am not a historian, there may be some serious problems in the Urartu approach. My apologies if this is the case. With that said, it is clear that the indigenous peoples of eastern Anatolia, i.e. the Armenians, the Kurds, the Assyrians, and the Pontic Greeks, have suffered for 1,000 years from the Turkish policy of Divide and Conquer. Perhaps now is the time for these indigenous peoples to unite and throw off the Turkish yoke, once and for all. My hunch is that if this were to happen, we Armenians could, more or less, tell the Turkish denialists to essentially ‘Take a Hike’, i.e. they can believe what they want about the Genocide. We don’t care what they think.
Perhaps one caveat to all of this, is the issue of hidden Armenians, and even the possibility that much of the population in eastern Anatolia has some kind of Armenian ancestory. If that is the case then perhaps all that is needed is a genetic test of the peoples in the region. Wouldn’t it be interesting, if most of the people in eastern Anatolia turned out to actually be Armenians.
David,
An interesting proposition. I only have one objection re: ‘Armenian tribes coming from Thrace, etc.’ in the second para. of your comment. This clause uses a rather over-simplified account of the origin of the Armenian people. According to the Greek historian Herodotus, the Armenians had originally lived in Thrace from where they crossed to Phrygia in Asia Minor and had then gradually moved west of the Euphrates River to what became Armenia.
However, other historians indicate that from the ninth to the sixth centuries B.C., a large part of historical Armenia, called Ararat by its contemporary neighbors, comprised the Kingdom of Urartu. This Kingdom disintegrated during the middle of the sixth century whereupon the native tribes inhabiting the area, including the Armen and the Nairi groups, were unified and became part of the dominant Hayassa group. Their Indo-European language was imposed on the conquered Urartuans, who spoke a non-Aryan language. Thus did the Armenian nation take form, its people being the political, ethnic, and cultural successors to the Hurrians, pre-Hittites, Hayassas, Nayiris and Urartuans. This newly formed nation was called “Hai” after the name of the Hayassa tribal federation and the country “Hayastan.” The neighboring peoples called the Armenians “Armen” and their country “Armenia” after the Armens.
And of course, there is an Armenian version of the origins of the Armenian people, which was written between the fifth and eight centuries A.D., that describes the Armenian people as being descendants of Japeth, a son of Noah. After the Ark had landed on Mt. Ararat, Noah’s family settled first in Armenia and generations later moved south to the land of Babylon. The leader of the Armenians, Haik, a descendant of Japeth, unhappy with the tyranny and evil in Babylon, rebelled and decided to return to the land of the Ark. The country came to be known as “Hayastan” after Haik.
I guess, my point is that as with many ancient peoples, the origin of the Armenians contains elements of unresolved scholarly arguments. Therefore, we cannot unambiguously state that Armenian tribes came from Thrace.
Overall, like I said, an interesting proposition.
Oops, one more objection. And again re: the second para. You wrote: ‘…it turns out there was a solution for Armenians and Kurds on the same land some 2500-3000 years ago. It was the federated state known as Urartu. There the peoples of eastern Anatolia lived together in a prosperous state that could hold its own even against one of the most powerful states at the time, the mighty Assyrian Empire.’
David, 2500-3000 years ago there was no such a geographical toponym as ‘eastern Anatolia.’ The areas is historically known as Asia Minor or eastern Asia Minor, if you’re referring to its eastern part. Anatolia is a toponym that Turks are advancing to their advantage, as part of geographical distortion of historical facts in that the area was known under a different name and different civilizations inhabited it for millennia, long before the formation of the Ottoman Empire in the 14th century AD.
TO GARY M:
I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOUR IDEAS IN GENERAL:
-YES, I DO NOT THINK THAT IT IS UNFAIR TO ASK TO RETURN ARMENIAN PROPOERTIES TO THE HEIRS.
-YES, ARMENIANS WERE REMOVED BY FORCE, AND SUFFERED VERY MUCH.
-YES, KICKING SOMEBODY BY FORCE FROM HIS HOME AND CLAIM IT TO BE HIS OWN IS NOT RIGHT.
WHERE I DISAGREE WITH YOU IS IN HOPING THAT ONE DAY TURKEY WILL ALLOW ON THE CURRENT TURKISH TERRITORY TO THE CREATION OF AN ARMENIA.
IN THE COURSE OF HISTORY, EMPIRE/KINGDOM WERE BORN, CONQUERED AND SOME DISAPPEARED. ARMENIA WAS CONQUERED BY THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE BEFORE THE 15TH CENTURY. AS FROM THIS DATE IT BECAME TURKISH.
THE CURRENT BORDERS OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY ARE RECOGNIZED BY ALL COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD WITH THE EXCEPTION OF (TO MY KNOWLEDGE) ARMENIA. IN THE PROTOCOLS TO BE SIGNED MUTUALLY PRESIDENT SARKISYAN WILL ALSO RECOGNIZE THE BORDERS OF TURKEY.
I THINK THAT DISTINCTION HAS TO BE MADE BETWEEN RETURN OF PROPERTY AND CREATION OF A NEW ARMENIA.
WHOEVER WAS UNRIGHTFULLY EXPATRIATED FROM HIS HOME, HIS HOME SHOULD BE RETURNED WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY.
NOW REGARDING ALLAH TELLING ME TO DO THE RIGHT THING. NO, I DO WHAT JESUS CHRIST TELL ME IT IS RIGHT TO DO. MY MOTHER IS ARMENIAN AND MY FATHER IS LEBANESE. I AM A TURKISH CITIZEN WITH ARMENIAN AND LABENESE ORIGIN. I AM BOTH PROUD OF MY ORIGIN AND MY COUNTRY TURKEY.
FYG, MY MOTHER’S FAMILY IS ORIGINALLY FROM TARSUS. MY GRAND FATHER EMIGRATED TO LEBANON IN 1915 WHEN HE WAS 3 YEARS OLD. 2 GENERATIONS LATER MY MOTHER RETURNED TO TURKEY.
TO CDEFG,
AS YOU SO RIGHTFULLY POINTED OUT THE BEST WAY OF DEFEATING YOUR OPPONENT IS BY IGNORING HIM/HER.
WHY DON’T YOU FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE AND IGNORE ME?
Point taken CDEFG… I also agree that it is just waste of everyone’s time to respond to Karekin.. I have asked him several times if he is directing his peaceful, loving, democratic and “lets hold hands and sing coombaya” approach to Turks on their sites.. However, did not get any response from him in regards to this……
My dear CDEFG, i agree with you 100%.. I have to say, Turks, especially the ones who post their comments on these sites, seem to have a very slow reaction to directions and suggestions… I have had few encounters with few already.. Including Ahmet who had been misspelling my name over and over.. One would think they are doing it on purpose.. Actually I know in his case he was doing it on purpose… But I already expressed my feelings about those Turks who deliberately doing things to raise my blood pressure up… they know where they will end up…
AB,
I told you that writing in CAPS means you are yelling at someone… just like my comrad CDEFG stated in a very very detailed manner about the reasoning behind the caps (this was the second or third time I noticed someone telling you to turn your caps off), I am glad to see that you finally got it through your messed up head that writing is an expression and also a tool people use to share thoughts, comments, ect…In order to portray what you want to say in an effective way, you need to know how to write and write it in the write way….. Glad to see that you took the advice… however, if you think by doing so you are granting us a victory with free of charge, you are absolutely arrogant and ignorant.. Instead of calling CDEFG someone with a problem, I would think twice about yourself.. To be honest with you, with what you are state in your comments and your views on the Armenian question truly speaks volume about your state of mind and it is not a good state.. if you ask me plus millions who are reading these comments…
I would disagree that I am dreaming about my ancestral lands being returned to its lawful owner.. Please read Gary M’s comment over and over and over again until it gets stuck in your brain.. He gives you a great comparison and reason to your comment about our lands….Let me repeat myself: Those lands ARE NOT YOURS TO CLAIM… the caps were meant to emphasize the words… just in case you are confused…
Boyajian and Janine.. Excellent Comment… As always….
Dr. Deranian… an interesting thought… may need to tell us more about this.. I have not really thought about your suggestion but from what I have read, you may have something there.. need to revisit that again…Please keep us posted about your movie production.. I know I will be the first to buy the tickets to come and see it..:)
Sylva jan… I am honored to read your poems… thank you so much for the most current poem and your opinion of me.. Truly appreciate it.. and you are absolutely right.. Justice will prevail…
God Bless you all…
Thanks to David for helping to redirect this discussion on a more positive and creative path.
GAYANE,
YOU REALLY ARE CONFUSED IN YOUR HEAD.
I AM NOT CLAIMING ANYTHING FROM YOU. I SUGGEST YOU GO TO A BOOKSTORE AND BUY AN ATLAS. PLEASE FIND THE PAGE SHOWING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY. LOOK AT ANATOLIA AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT IS INCLUDED IN THE BORDERS OF TURKEY AND WHAT IS NOT.
YOU CAN BUY THE SAME ATLAS FROM THE U.S., SWEDEN OR FRANCE. YOU WILL SEE THE SAME BORDERS.
AFTER THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHO IS CLAIMING WHAT FROM WHOM.
Hi AB,
Interesting to have your input/perspective on this discussion. Hope you continue to share and also hope you will be open-minded when considering what is right or fair between Armenians and the Republic of Turkey.
With all due respect to you, are you sure your grandfather emigrated to Lebanon in 1915 or was he part of a forced deportation? If not deported, did his family flee out of fear or to avoid a worse fate? What do you know about why they left and what and who they left behind?
You say you are proud of your country. What is your opinion of Article 301? What is your opinion of your government’s policy of denial and minimization of its crimes against your ancestors? How do you come to terms with this? Just curious.
To AB:
Well…we never know…you and I may be related? My grandparents were from Kayseri.
Since most of the rightful title holders of the propreties in Western Armenia have been killed and survivors are mostly deceased now, selectively returning confiscated property is not realistic. You know this is difficult if not impossible?
Why not honour President Wilson’s Armenia borders, which he thought fair and realistic, after WW1. The people who now live there need not necessarily move out.
I believe Turkey is a beautiful place. I understand why you are proud of your country. I have never been there but the Internet is a valuable instrument for us to travel the world with just a few clicks. Lebanon is also a beautiful place and I have been there a few times.
If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, then you know that HE definitely instructs us all to ‘do the right thing’. Are you able to discuss with fellow Turks what the right thing is? Only when Turkish laws allow true freedom of speech will Turkey and the people come out of emotional bondage & fear!
David brings up an interesting prosposition that might sound good, but is the stuff of fantasy. I’m not sure he realizes that that vast majority of Turkey’s Kurds (and other ethnicities, too), live in eastern Turkey, probably on the order of 10 – 12 million people. Even if every Armenian on the planet moved there, which is highly unlikely, they’d still be outnumbered 2 – 1. Plus, didn’t some Armenians already go down the road of attempting to link up w/ others to bring down Turkey, with disasterous results before? We all know the sad outcome of that venture. And, let’s not forget the 7 million Azeris on the other side, who have oil and now, an American funded and supplied military. While all of these discussions can be interesting, when you enter the realm of actual possibilities, many if not most, fall off the table rather quickly. Better to focus on improving what we have (like Armenia and curbing emigration), and not fantasize on something so remote that it will never see the light of day.
Hye,
When wars are fought, won and lost, the losers lose their lands and more,
When wars are fought, won and lost, the ‘winners’ take that lands they have ‘won’
But yet, when a nation is decimated, raped, robbed as has happened to so many of the nations of the world since the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation,
Genocides – perpetrated against unarmed peoples, who have not been able to fight for their own freedom, the perpetrators are the ‘winners’…
Hence, the nations of the world, watching these Genocides (as in Darfur now for these nearly seven/eight years) are guilty of the crime of Genocides too.
The cycle of Genocides – ignored – is a crime against ALL humanity – the killings (and worse) by any perpetrator, whether a by a foe or an ‘ally’!
Thus, Ottoman Turks and all their misdirected leaderships have been lying, to their own citizens, lying to the world, and even lying to themselves!
When shall the leaderships of the civlized nations of our world proceed together to face this ‘evil’ disease brought down upon all humanity? For, if the Turks, whose ‘trials’ of Genocide began in the 19th century and culminated with the
events of the 20th century (still today, in the 21st century – in Darfur) can and do ‘get away with murders’ and more) …
Too, now a Sudan takes the stance that Sudan never committed a Genocide against the Darfurians – and why not? They are emulating the obvious, their model, the nearly 100 years of the the Turkish denials of their guilt of murdering and more the ancient and civilized nation of Armenia.
Which leaderships in our world shall have the ‘guts’ to oppose a Turkey and all the future despots who shal surely step up and perpetrate the next Genocide – Kurds? Next?
Crimes are not ‘allowed’ in our civilization, as nations find and incarcerate these criminals…
Sadly, civilization as yet is unable to face and bring to justice those who have been the perpetrators of Genocides… Perhaps we should spell out the vile crimes these ‘guilty’ have performed before and after their slaughters, rapes, etc. to explicitly list all the inhumane and mentally deranged acts performed on the helpless victims – leaving the Survivors with these memories for the rest of their lives – and their need to pass on to there descendants, the horrors of Genocide!
Manooshag
Karekin — Did you apologize for insulting Jesus Christ?
Hi Boyajian,
Yes I will continue to share my ideas. In my opinion there are going to be some very important changes in the very near future in the Armeno-Turkish relations.
And it will be interesting to see this from all perspectives.
Regarding my grandfather, “emigrated” is may be not the right word. He escaped on a ship to Cyprus and stayed sometimes there. And from there they went to make their lives in Lebanon.
My great grandfather was one of the Aga of Tarsus -Giragos Aga-, he was in fact said to be one of the biggest landowner there. They started their life in Lebanon from scratch.
Regarding article 301 of the Turkish constitution I think it is in general misunderstood. The law in itself is not clear and therefore subject to interpretations. The law states that distinction has to be made between critics and insults. Basically, I can criticize the Republique of Turkey but I cannot insult it. There have discussion regarding Orhan Pamuk and the article 301. Orhan Pamuk was never condemned with insulting Turkey. All those writers and thinkers which are very often associated with article 301 were never condemned.
I think I have replied to your questions.
AB – It doesn’t matter to me who your parents or grandparents are, would you PLEASE stop shouting?!
David, an interesting scenario. I disagree with others who claim it is merely the stuff of fantasy. In fact, I would say that the Kurdish reality has evolved to such a degree that now there is an entirely different possibility of relation between Kurds and Armenians than that which existed at the time of the genocide. It is, at any rate, something to consider — including questions of true ancestry, which I think are relevant to the peoples of the region.
I will consider it further. But it also raises up some other interesting questions. Last night I attended a talk in which Michael Bobelian, former Ambassador John Evans, and Aram Hamparian were speaking. The remarks I heard there (and questions from some Turks in the audience), as well as discussion raised here has sort of piqued my interest in certain directions.
As you all know I’m sure, at the time of the genocide there were different political movements afoot within the Armenian community, in Turkey as a whole, and around all the Balkans. There were movements among Armenians in hope to be united with progressive Turks for a constitution that would establish a democratic republic and include the guarantee of rights of minorities. Of course, we know what happened to such hopes.
But the world has evolved. “Human rights” is not merely a declaration of the West any longer, but the stuff of worldwide dialogue and world courts. Turkey, however, has a long way to catch up with this basic common assumption about human rights as exemplified in International Law (such as the laws that protect the right of civilians in warfare and the genocide convention). The remarks of the Turks who attended last night’s symposium brought this forward for me in ways that no one else has. They clearly expressed the idea that life in this world is about the stuff of empires: who takes what. Territory and land don’t “belong” to anybody — it is there for the power of the strongest to grab or not. The distorted picture presented from their history books (one person was talking about how they are taught about the Greek islands) really exemplified this way of thinking to a great degree. (I grant you, the speaker may not have expressed himself well.) We can understand, from their history, why this mentality exists. But it is not really compatible with a set of values of human rights laws and international law governing conduct in times of war. I am willing to accept that in Turkey people look perhaps at the foreign policies of the US and see hypocrisy in various forms. I personally, as a grateful citizen of the US, do not doubt this. Fortunately, we also have enough of a democracy so that we voice our opinions here as well on this subject, in many ways.
But it all raises the question of a fundamental agreement on what human rights are in the first place. Do people have a right to their culture and historical homeland? To be protected from the power of the strongest from ethnic cleansing and genocide? Is life really just about a free-for-all and domination of the strongest? What role does culture play? Civilization as a gift to the world? What about the great monuments of creativity, art, architecture, music, etc. that are swept away in the horror of war as the only arbiter of who gets what? Until we have an agreement on these basic concepts, where does dialogue begin? I believe this is the crux of the problems that Turkey has with the EC, and the rest trail. But there is still not even agreement on this concept. Article 301a puts a lie to the idea that constitutional considerations are somehow compatible with the EC and by extension these concepts of human rights.
And as we have discussed our Christian religion, to what does it respond when we talk only of life as part of the power of the strongest? This indeed, is a Christian struggle. Far be it from me to suggest that in the name of expediency and empire all people who call themselves Christian have held fast in their struggle to these beliefs. But Armenians as a small people really have never claimed power only as the right to victory. It makes us think. We were persecuted with other minorities for our mutual faith. It has to have something to do with the values we espouse in the world — and that is indeed tied to all concept of human rights and international regulation of the behavior of the powerful.
I read an interesting story that I’m not sure was accurate, but I tend to believe it reflects true sentiments. I read that the Kurdish mayor of Diyarbakir made a speech asking the Armenians to return, to make the land once again prosper as it did. I find these words plausible, and the maturity of understanding in this man’s mind given the events of history also plausible. We have but to compare the before and after scenarios in the Armenian homelands to know the wisdom of the concept. And that is something that Turkey lacks. The “greatness” of the Ottoman Empire was to a very large extent the product of its productive minorities and their capabilities.
Something to think about.
Dear Boyajian,
To the last question of your post; I think sooner or later mistakes committed will be recognized. And it is very close!
“The enemy of my enemy is my friend”
Boghos Nubar and the Kurdish leadership agreed that should the allies oversee the boundary settlement after the end of WWI, both peoples would see their own nation.
In Armenia today, what Kurds that live there don’t necessarily get the same reespect as the other citizens of Armenia. A big, big mistake.
Janine,
I didn’t mean to yell or shout at you. Sorry if I have offended you.
GAYANE, CDEFG,
I REALLY MEANT TO SHOUT AT YOU. YOU ARE REALLY ANNOYING ME WITH YOUR IDEAS AND FANATISM. PLEASE TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE AND IGNORE ME.
One more comment: the ideas I hear attacking the concept of genocide from the Turkish side are really infantile. “Were there gas chambers?” etc. There is a basic lack of concept as to what exactly constitutes the definition of genocide.
One Turkish speaker last night claimed 2 million Iraqi deaths happened so far in the Iraq War. His conclusion? Doesn’t that mean the US has committed genocide in Iraq since Armenians only number 1.5 million dead? Where did the 1.5 million statistic come from? (he said, “Oh they are both estimates” with a smile). I was disappointed that none of the speakers pointed out the recent Turkish publication of census material from the years surrounding the genocide that proves this figure right (from papers held by family members descended of those in power at the time and never before made public). “A Shameful Act” indeed; at least they understood it.
As far as “condemnation” under Article 301 is concerned, Orhan Pamuk was charged but the charges were dropped after a world protest for this Nobel Prize winner. But can he live in Turkey in peace? No, he cannot. Article 301 is used to harass him, just as it was used over and over again to harass and threaten Hrant Dink, and led to his assassination. It really bothers me to hear this kind of nonsense from Armenians in Turkey that uses some form of obfuscation to somehow make it all seem okay. It smacks for me of collaborationist behavior. There is no other way for me to see it. I don’t have to apologize for these things in order to live in peace, so maybe I am fortunate. The truth is that this is used to suppress even notions of minorities – Dink was condemned because he wrote an article saying that Kemal had an Armenian daughter who was a pilot, shattering this arrogant mentality of “Turks only.” That led to his problems. Article 301 allows such idiocy and tragedy to prevail. It is racist. Anything can be construed an insult and be used to suppress identity of minorities. It is used to suppress Turks who speak out on these issues, regardless of which profession they hold: journalists, writers, historians. Neither can Taner Akcam live freely in his own country without fear.
may I add that because of Article 301 Turkish people posting here from Turkey who agree that there was a genocide *cannot* say so without fear of persecution???
Thanks AB. So do you agree with how Article 301a is used in your country? Do you believe there is a need for such a law in a democratic society? And what of Hrant Dink. What did you think when you saw what happened to him? Did you think he brought it on himself?
When your family returned to Turkey, were they able to regain any of the lands owned by your great-grandfather? Do you know what happened to your family that never escaped on the ship in 1915. Of course, if your grandfather had not left Turkey and eventually gone to Lebanon, then you probably would not be here today, so these questions can’t be black and white for you. I just wonder how the average Armenian living in Turkey today makes sense of living among the denialists. Do you think you too minimize and deny what happened in order to cope?
Of the many ideas that circulate regarding reconciliation with Turkey the one I find easiest to agree with is the notion that Turkey owes the state of Armenia monetary restitution for all the human, intellectual and creative resources destroyed in the genocide, as well as for the land resources usurped from their rightful owners. Can you imagine how many Armenians would be living in the provinces today had they not been murdered or starved to death? Can you imagine the flourishing cities, the restored churches filled with worshipers and the art and literary contributions to the world? This was stolen from us. How do Armenians in Turkey see this? Can you imagine a cooperation of Turkish Armenians and Diasporan Armenians working together to influence the Turkish government to make restitution for these losses? Hypothetical question. Just wondering…
to Gary M,
I do not have a clear cut reply to give you. In my view the starting point is the beginning of billateral talks which have started with the protocols between Turkey and Armenia.
Return to Wilsonian border is something which will not happen. Wilsonian border were recognized in the Traite de Sevres which was 3 years later annuled and replaced with Lausanne treaty (signatories of Sevres treaty all signed the Lausanne treaty). As you may now, once Ottoman Empire lost do WW1 together with Germany, it was forced to sign the Sevre treaty. In fact the Sevre treaty was the dismanteling of Ottoman Empire and its sharing among UK, France, Italy, Greeece and Armenia. It was immediately followed with the independence war resulting in the expulsion of the occupying forces and the signing of Lausanne treaty recognizing Turkey with its current border.
To your question on wether these matters are discussed openly. Yes, it is discussed openly. And there are different opinions as you can imagine, some would say it is pure fabrication some would say it is atrocities of war, some others have different opinions. This is why I often defended the idea of dialogue which will educate. Politicians are one thing but people on the street should be made aware. This can only happen through dialogue. And the sigining of the protocols will be the beginning.
Janine… Thank you my dear for yet again pointing out to AB that using caps is inappropriate.. and yet again AB does not get it.. It is hard to believe he or she has an Armenian blood running through his or her veins…
Janine jan.. Excellent commentary about the talk you have attended.. It is amazing that many forget that the one of the main reasons our ancestors were slaughtered was because of what we believed in.. because what we worshiped.. Lord Jesus Christ… because what values we were instilled with… I agree with you 110% that the survival of the fittest is nothing but a destruction of everything a human race stands for… Why have culture, art, music, heritage if someone can sweep everything by a creating a war? Does not make sense to me.. that is not humane.
AB,
Please spare me with your reasoning on Article 301 .. It was created to shut anyone that speaks of Genocide.. Critics vs insults is simply a NONSENSE… We both know that Turkey will always take anything relating to Armenian Genocide and its history or recognition as an insult… Hrant Dink was shot to dead not because he was insulting Turkishness but he was the advocate of what it means to be true to your ancestral history and roots, the Armenian Genocide and the part Turkey played in it…. He tried to bring this matter to light by educating not only the Turks but also anyone living in Turkey and the world… However, Turkey did not let that happen..Insulting vs Critics my foot…What a BS…This is what I can’t stand.. Trying to justify a law that is wrong in its own entirity. That is just wrong… among some of the reasonings that you use in regards to our lands, our Genocide and Turkey in general…
Thank you
Gayane
I think another starting point, in addition to what David and Janine proposed, may be revitalization of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitrary Award re: Armenia’s borders, as shown in the Treaty of Sevres signed between governments of Armenia and Turkey in 1920. The award remains in effect so long as Armenia signs new agreement with Turkey on border demarcation. Although not ratified by the Armenian and Turkish parliaments for different reasons, Wilson’s Award has a power of a law and is still valid. The Treaty of Sevres is the only treaty that’s been signed by independent Armenian Republic and Turkey. All other treaties, including the Treaty of Kars signed in 1921, have no legal power under the international law because they were signed by the parties that were not subjects of international law. For instance, the Treaty of Kars was signed by illegitimate representatives of the Kemalist regime and Bolshevik Soviet Transcaucasian republics, who were unrecognized by the international law at the time of signing.
Armenia can claim its legal right for the territories, which were to be placed under the jurisdiction of the Armenian government in line with the Treaty of Sevres. As for the local population (mostly Kurds) who inhabit them after the Armenians were expelled, the government of Armenian may offer to Turkish government to rent these lands or to use them jointly.
My two cents to this discussion.
K
To AB:
The so called Protocols are an insult to all Armenians. And we, in the Diaspora have made that clear. The closing of borders on East & West of Armenia has and continues to cause hardship for the RA. Some people, not all, may think they have to submit to the Protocols but the reality is that Turkey & allies (yes the USA too) are trying to shut us all up.
But we are not shutting up…and you being who you are should be supporting Armenians. In fact in a week the world will hear the loudest protests on the Genocide in 95 years.
Just because you live in Turkey and are a Turkish citizen doesn’t mean you have to embrace wrong & unjust ideas! As I have said embrace Truth & Justice….like Jesus said “…And the Truth will set you free”.
To Janine & Gayane:
Bullies are all over the place. Interesting to note that people who believe in the concept of “survival of the fittest” or “conquerers keep what they have gained” “or whoever steals the pretty girl..may keep her as his possession” etc. etc. Will be the first to protest against others bullying them! It’s absurd!
If the children of the bullies are bullied in the school yards (by the fittest? right?) they…first thing in the morning they will be in the principal’s office bitching about bullies? This is nothing but duplicity, double standards, if they really believed in the ‘survival of the fittest’ they should not complain about their children (or other members of their clan) being bullied by the ‘fittest’ Right?
G
To AB & Karo:
Thanks for your 2 cents Karo (really worth a fortune) regarding the legality of The Treaty of Sevres.
AB had just said that Treaty of Lauzon had superseded the Treaty of Sevres. I am glad you brought this to the open.
I believe the Wilsonian Armenia is a legitimate territory put forward by President Wilson. Only if today’s President would also embrace it!
Thank you Boyajian..excellent commentary..
Lets see how AB is going to answer and justify what you have asked.
AB……..I have lost my patience with people such as yourself who are ignorant to the last cell of their being or minimize the effects to the smallest degree… sometimes I just don’t bother to speak without passion… and hence why my comments come off strong…and my buttons have been pushed by you over and over… hence, why I write the way I write.. So if you are shouting at me and at my comrad, go ahead.. .. it goes to show that you can’t handle the pressure… and the truth…you are in denial…..it is ok.. it is not your fault.. to be true to yourself and to others and admit your guilt ridden conscience is the best way to move forward.. let go and embrace what you are being taught on this site… it will only help you….but shouting is just simply pathetic…
Have a wonderful evening…
Gayane
Author: AB
Comment:
GAYANE,
YOU REALLY ARE CONFUSED IN YOUR HEAD.
AB
Here it goes.. open your eyes and read what i am going to tell you…
You say I am confused in my head? I may be alot of things but one thing I am not is confused about who i am. I am a great grand daughter of the Armenian Genocide Survivor who lost his entire family to bastards Ottoman Turks and their lands, and wealth were taken by force leaving my great grandfather penniless and alone in the world..You ignorant person… I know who I am…I am a proud Armenian with the blood of my ancestors running through my veins… DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE? I bet you are as confused as any Turk leaving in Turkey due to the mass brainwashing that has been going on for a century done by your govt. Please go check your head first before accusing someone being confused… and don’t worry.. one day your head will clear when the lands that belong to Armenians are returned to them and your precious govt apologizes for the Genocide… You are a joke… and if i am annoying you with my comments.. well so be it….. just like you continue to shout at me and others…
To Janine,
Your comments on article 301 is just your opinion. Of course, I do not agree with such law. But from there to assume that Orhan Pamuk was discharged because of international pressure it is a long way. Orhan Pamuk is living in his nice house in Istanbul. What pressure is he under? Moreover, what does Dink’s killing has to do with article 301? I am sorry Janine, you are angry at us because we state that we are happy. You are even telling me that I have a “collaborationist behavior”. What do you want me to do to lie to you and say, we have no liberty and we are opressed?
On the worry of Turkish people posting here afraid of article 301, do I look afraid or worried? Do I look like I fear persecution?
To Boyajian,
I think that article 301 has to be amended. Regarding the murder of Mr. Dink it has no direct relation with article 301. Whether he was murdered by an individual acting by himself or by a group of people it remains a question mark. In my opinion, it was a group of people with the aim of increasing tensions, people who are against the normalization of relations between Turks and Armenians. To a certain extend they have succeeded. Almost every commentator in this site is talking about what happened to Mr. Dink., and this is exactly what they wanted. I would like to remember more the 100.000 people present at the funerals in sign of support, condemning the killing.
To your other questions, there is not much I can tell. Only my mother returned to Turkey after marrying my father. Years later my grand father used to come in the summer to Turkey to visit us. A part of my my mother’s family emigrated from Lebanon to the USA.
Regarding living with people denying as I said previously difference has to be made between gouvernment policy and ideas of people on the street. People on the street have very divers opinions. In recent months there are a lot of tv shows debating the issue.
To Karo;
The Traite de Sevres has no legal value. It was annuled in 1923 and replaced by traite de Lausanne. How can you refer to something which no longer exists?
Ottoman Empire who had lost the war was forced to sign the Traite de Sevres. In fact this treaty was the dismanteling and sharing of Ottoman empire among French, English, Italian, Grec and Armenian. After the independence war led by Ataturk, the occupied territories were liberated, and the traite de Lausanne was signed to define the new borders of Turkey.
What I am stating above is not an opinion but historical fact.
AB,
You’re mistaken, and it’s not the only mistake you’ve made in these pages.
In 1923 the Treaty of Sevres was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne, true, but not all the signatories of Treaty of Sevres signed the Treaty of Lausanne. Armenia has not. In 1921 Bolshevik troops invaded the independent Armenian Republic, therefore in Lausanne the Soviet Union, and not the Republic of Armenia, was a signatory. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991, and the modern-day Republic of Armenia pronounced itself heir of the democratic Armenian Republic of 1918-1921. Therefore, the only legal treaty between the Turkish state and the Republic of Armenia is the Treaty of Sevres. All other treaties were signed by signatories either not representing Armenia (as in Lausanne) or representing illegitimate, unrecognized parties (as in Kars).
BTW, if, according to you, the signing of modern-day protocols is a good start, might you have any idea as to why your government is delaying it, shows no intention to ratify them, and links these documents with an issue (read: Nagorno-Karabakh) that has no connection whatsoever with the bilateral Turkish-Armenian relations?
To Gary M,
I respect your opinion, but I am sorry I do not agree with you.
I personnally think that the protocols are the start of a new beginning.
I am sure there are others who thinks in the same manner I do.
It is not right for you to tell me I am embracing wrong ideas because I do not share your ideas.
AB — Dink himself repeatedly said before his assassination that it was the repeated charged under Article 301 that brought threats to his life. It was the repeated charges that took him to the authorities to complain that he needed security because the attention brought him daily threats. And it was the repeated charges and harassment that brought incredible tension and fear into his life. He openly complained about the repeated use and threats of use of 301 in his life. These are his words.
The photographs of the policemen smiling with his killer are enough to convince others about how this murder was regarded by many. Why not you? I am certain people were outraged by his killing, because of the issue of free speech raised in general and because it is entirely shameful. But Kemalism is something I don’t accept in any form, no matter who’s ultranationalism or which nation we are talking about. It is racism. The Greek Patriarchate for example experiences outrages against its own freedom to operate as a religious institution, and Turkey has been condemned by the European Court in this case. It is unfortunate that you are not able to see the 60 Minutes broadcast recently with the Patriarch to hear a true side of things.
As I have said, I have had repeated contact with highly educated Turks from upper class circles (and who could attend top universities in the US). With a few exceptions, the experience of racism and antipathy was very strong. There were some notable exceptions but these individuals would not openly speak their opinions unless strong political commitments meant they were already in open opposition to the govt.
Perhaps in Turkey they report Pamuk’s problems differently. In the international newspapers it was presented around the world the way I say it: charges were brought against him but dropped because of international pressure. He himself complained in writing in newspapers about his treatment and the use of 301!! Furthermore the charges were dropped not only after an international outcry but also the week before the EU was to do a systematic review of Turkey’s justice laws specifically focusing on the issues related in Pamuk’s case. You have things presented to you in Turkey in a more distorted fashion than you think.
Here are Pamuk’s own words, from a speech he made in late 2008 in Frankfurt:
The case against him was subsequently dropped, and Article 301 was amended earlier this year, but Pamuk said yesterday afternoon in Frankfurt that “the state’s habit of penalising writers and their books is still very much alive; Article 301 of the Turkish penal code continues to be used to silence and suppress many other writers, in the same way it was used against me; there are at this moment hundreds of writers and journalists being prosecuted and found guilty under this article.”
Also, you seem not to know that Erdogan has just said the Turkish Parliament will not ratify the protocols. Unfortunately — I support displomatic relations and open borders. The question of the genocide is undebatable and has already been decided by worldwide scholarship, historical witness and more archival evidence that continues to mount (such as census figures finally publishes in the past year or so and kept secret until now).
AB – I want to make it clear that I am glad you are here to dialogue and talk, but just as long as the shouting is over. Let us all talk to one another. Even if I disagree with you, I learn about your life by what you say. I am certain that our sister Gayane will also be glad to dialogue and to disagree if we can all speak to one another without shouting, etc.
Gary M — interesting thing you say about bullies. I find often that people who were childhood bullies also tend to think they are the most bullied people, very weak tolerance for any adversity and very, very selfish!!! Very limited thinking.
To CDEFG,
I do not claim to be right on all I say.
Regarding the treaty of Lausanne. Obviously, Armenia could not have signed this treaty because it was not existing. But does this make this treaty less valid? It is a legal issue I might not be able to reply.
The same could be said for the treaty of Sevres which was signed by Ottoman Empire and not the Republic of Turkey.
The fact remains that Lausanne treaty was signed with all signatories of Sevres treaty (exception of Armenia but with participation of USSR), treaty which replaced Sevres treaty.
The signing of the protocols are delayed from the Turkish side, because there are some in the government who do not agree to abandon the Azeri issue.
Like the Diasporan Armenian who categorically rejects the protocols.
I personnally do not share the same opinion.
In my view, with the pressure of the international community sooner or later the protocols will be signed. This neither the Turkish faction opposing the protocols nor the Diasporan Armenian can prevent it from happening.
AB – occupied territories? You mean those places where Greek and Armenians lived since ancient times — many centuries before Turks appeared? You mean those places where Greeks and Armenians can no longer be found? What kind of liberation is that? I’m sorry, but your education has taken shape in an ultranationalist viewpoint that does not include the whole truth of life and reality. You exclude the cleansing of all Christian minority from this occupied territory and well beyond (Smyrna, for example, with the hideous butchering and characteristic burning that took place there under “liberation”). Your education system has this mindset, that all is about war and grabbing territory and the rights of people mean nothing. That is not liberation.
AB,
I’m not disputing that Treaty of Serves was annulled in 1923 and replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne. I’m bringing up a historical fact that the Treaty of Lausanne was signed by the representatives of the USSR, not the Republic of Armenia. After the disintegration of the USSR in December 1991, the only legal document defining the borders between Turkey and Armenia, I repeat: Turkey and Armenia, not between Turkey from one side and the Allies and the USSR from another, is the Arbitral Award of the U.S. president Woodrow Wilson, which was embodied in the Treaty of Sevres of 1920.
For your information, the only legal document still in force that exists between the U.S. and Turkey, that defines the boundaries of the Turkish state is… ready for this?… Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award. There’s no other document bearing an official Seal of the U.S. government that defines borders of modern Turkey than the Wisonian Award.
And the Treaty of Sevres was aimed at dismantling the Ottoman empire among France, Britain, Italy, Greece, and Armenia because a number of ancient lands that were occupied by the Ottoman empire were not originally Turkish. Many nations who were enslaved by the Ottoman Turks lived there long before the Ottoman empire had formed in the 14th century A.D. The Wilsonian Award was an attempt to recover those lands (basically, six Armenian provinces of Van, Bitlis, Sivas, Diyarbekir-Tigranakert, Kharbert, Erzerum + added Trabzon) for their rightful owners: the Armenians.
Also for your information, the Treaty of Lausanne was convened and signed not so much because the independence war led by freemason Mustafa Kemal, but primarily because there was a new reality on the ground: the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
It’s great to have this opportunity to explore ideas with all of you…
AB, you and I disagree about the connection of Article 301a and the murder of Hrant Dink. I believe that the very existence of such a law in your country legitimizes the extreme views of ultra-nationalist groups seeking to cause anarchy and to muzzle the voices of people who seek and speak truth. It provides the atmosphere from which these groups draw breath.
I am confused regarding the group you suggest is responsible for Hrant’s death. Please say more about this.
I too, often think about the 100,00 who supported the funeral after Hrant’s death and am filled with awe at the potential that it holds for a reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia. But I also wonder where they are now; are they speaking openly to their neighbors and friends about the truth or are they whispering in dark corners for fear of retribution?
Thank you for tolerating the many questions that I put to you. I am very grateful for your patient answers. I also hope to awaken the sleeping Armenian in you. You are a good citizen for your country but it may be time to put down the hookah of Turkish loyalty. Come out where the air is clear and you may begin to hear the voices carried by the fresh air of Truth of our ancestors calling for justice.
Also, the Treaty of Sevres was never annulled as far as I know and remains legal today. Please check your facts. Armenia never signed the Treaty of Lausanne. Turkey continues to distort the facts and avoid the consequences that they agreed to and the West is in collusion. Politicians will continue to prostitute themselves in the service of greed and power as long as ordinary citizens meekly allow it with their silence.
Thanks to all that are bringing to light the facts of the Treaty of Sevres (Karo, Gary, CDEFG, others).
Diasporan Armenians, Turkish Armenians and Armenians in the RA should ideally work together to achieve goals that support and strengthen the Republic, bring the truth to light and bring reconciliation with Turkey. We all have a legitimate say in the issue (though I sometimes wonder if the Turkish Armenian has the freedom to approach the matter openly and fairly). We need to dialogue amongst each other to understand each others viewpoints but in the end to do what is right is a pretty straight forward matter. Open trade, open borders, monetary restitution, Armenian access to historical sites for the purpose preservation and restoration are just a few.
Thank you Janine jan… I definintely agree with you on respecting people no matter what.. just because they are annoyed by our comments, it does not give them the right to shout at them.. simply human to human treatment that my parents taught me.. no one asked AB to agree with anything we say.. at this point, i can care less what he says… because obviously he does not have the Armenian blood that he says he has in him; otherwise he would not comment on matters that completely voids and contradicts to the Armenian Genocide and cause, the truth and justice.. Even though he has his own opinions and we have ours, I still do not have to agre with him..
Janine you yourself, Boyajian, Gary, Karo, Dr. Deranian, CDEFG and the rest of our own who believe in our cause and justice/truth, are my heros.. I have great respect and admiration for all of you.. Your words, knowledge and passion drives me forward… I want to thank you all…
God Bless you all.. even you AB
Gayane
Janine;
It is correct that Greeks lived in Western Turkey. But again Ancient Greeks went all the way to Italy, to Northern Africa, As far as France and Spain. Based on your logique all those countries should be restituted to Greece.
In the traite de Sevres a part of Antolia was given to the French, a part to the English and a part to the Italian. Did they also leave many centuries before there?
To Karo;
As I said earlier, the treaty of Lausanne was of course signed by URSS and not Armenia, because at the signing in 1923, Armenia was not existing as independent entity.
To Boyajian,
You are suggesting that the existence of an article 301 is causing ultranionalist feelings. I think this is a long shot but it might be posible.
The group I am suggesting is Ergenekon. There are a lot of articles in English as well which you can find on the net. In 2 words, it is an ultranationalist group aiming to destabilize the current government. In there agenda is also the killing of minorities, businessman and newpaper writers.
The Armenian in me is already awake, but I think our angles are different.
AB – you wrote:
It is correct that Greeks lived in Western Turkey. But again Ancient Greeks went all the way to Italy, to Northern Africa, As far as France and Spain. Based on your logique all those countries should be restituted to Greece.
Well, you know, your argument is really not straight. I did not say that everything “belongs” to Greece. Frankly, I think all the Turks would have been better off if Greece won that war, if you ask me, in terms of living standards and rights, freedom, and cultural advancement. But that’s another subject. What is did say was to take issue with your term of liberation. The Turks in Greece were not exterminated as the Greeks in Pontus and Armenians and Assyrians were. You did not see the scenes in Greece that happened in Smyrna. This is not liberation. The population exchange as far as the Greeks were concerned was to avoid more genocide – as what happened to the Armenians! In fact, the ancient colony of Trebizond and the Black Sea Coast Pontus Greeks was a thriving area with thousands of people at the time all of this happened. As the Swedish Parliament has recognized, part of the cleansing and genocide of the Christian people of Eastern Anatolia has included tens of thousands (if not hundreds) of Greeks in Pontus. They also were taken on the long marches of “deportation”, thrown off of bridges and all kinds of horrors happened to them. That, I repeat, is not “liberation!” Neither is the fact that they have disappeared from where they were since ancient times. To call that liberation is the slick words of the brutish and brutal. It is also stupid in my opinion to be proud of what Turkey has lost through its violence and brutality: powerfully productive, ancient culture and civilization, industrious well-educated people with a high regard for the best education and tradition had to offer from that ancient world they kept alive, and into the greatest thinkers among the Fathers of the Church.
My dearest Janine.. Hyeren haskanum es?
If so, I want to say this in Armenian because it sounds much better… Qefs galisa yerp vor kartum em qo gratsnera… Shat apres… this goes to Boyajian too..
Yerani karoghanainq irar het off site kap dneinq…. with you, Gary, Boyajian, and the rest of the regulars…
Apres again… Good job…
Gayane
AB,
I’m not a legal expert or international lawyer, but I know that a treaty (Lausanne) cannot be considered valid for a party that never was a signatory to the treaty. Armenia, clearly, was not. As for Sevres, modern Republic of Turkey is the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, whereas the Republic of Armenia is not a successor of the USSR. Russian Federation is. Besides, if you think that the Republic of Turkey is not a successor of the Ottoman Empire, then one would wonder as to why your government so fervently rejects the crimes of its predecessor-state and continues the shameless policy of denial?
Again, the Treaty of Lausanne was not signed by all signatories, Armenia was absent and has not delegated its authority to the USSR because the country was invaded. The Treaty of Lausanne is no longer valid because one of the principal signatories, the USSR, no longer exists. Thus, the only treaty that enters into force and has validity within the framework of Armenian-Turkish bilateral relations is the Treaty of Sevres. Moreover, there is a document that supersedes the Lausanne Treaty: it is Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitrary Decision that he was entrusted to do based on the authority given to him by the Allies after WWI with regard to partition of Ottoman Empire. The Arbitrary Decision was never materialized because Armenia was conquered by the Soviets in 1921 and ceased to exist as an independent state up until 1991.
As for the protocols, please appreciate the difference between the official Turkish government that rejects ratification and unofficial Diasporan Armenians, as well as most citizens of Armenia, who reject the protocols. These are two incomparably different entities. Even under huge domestic pressure the government of Armenia signed and submitted the protocols for ratification. Armenia, thus, doesn’t need to be pressed by the international community. It has done its part. Where is Turkey? And what does the third issue, the Azeri one, have to do with the protocols that pertain strictly to bilateral Armenian-Turkish relations? Don’t you think it’s idiotic?
AB, I’m curious. Where did you learn to write and speak English?
Additionally, your argument about Greek ownership is not straight on one other point: there are not still hundreds of thousands of Greeks in those places. However they were there in Turkey when they were treated the same ways that we were. That makes all the difference, even in the types of arguments that you make.
To: Gayane, Janine, Boyajian, Karo and others! “Katch Vartanin Tornere”
Have you folks heard “Hye Em Yes, Hye Em Yes, Katch Vartanin Torne Em Yes!”
This is what we used recite where I went to grade school…but I am not sure if all schools taught it?
Thanks to all of you for the kind remarks. It give us all hope that we are not alone, that we are not islands without our beloved support group. Especially when we are huge distances from each other. Thank you Internet too.
That TRUTH will prevail and the Armenian Nation is not destroyed; it is very much alive, even if wounded. Hopefully by having this ‘community’ we can help each other heal!
We, in the Diaspora especially, are definitely the product of the Armenian Genocide! How can so many grandparents, greatgrandparents, from many different and distant places, all tell the same stories? + eye witness testimonies + books detaling w/the atrocities. Ofcourse our history is TRUE. Denial will never change TRUTH! Actually even Turks admit denial has hurt the Turkish people!
You know what we say “you can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool (or lie to) all of the people some of the time…but you can never, ever fool all of the people all of the time”. Every one knows this!
Simply put, our stories and historical facts are most definitely TRUE! Our ancestors were never interested in ‘booty’ or ‘conquering others’. And today or in the future we are not either !!! Others are, and were, jealous of our accomplishments. Jealousy is only one of the reasons for them to want to get rid of us. Exterminate us. How foolish? To destroy people who are your very source of everything! People like Taner Ackam know this! They know right from wrong! And speak out risking their own lives. TRUTH IS POWERFUL! Cannot be silenced.
Anonymity may be good…. but at this stage we all wish we could get together and give one another a great big hug! Yes that would be great…and someday we may be able to do that too! We are and remain UNITED!
Keep well, you all sons and daughters of the Armenian Arudz in all of us!
This man (Hagop Goudsouzian) in Montreal actually named his son “Arudz” so that he would grow up brave! If you haven’t already, please go and watch a great movie on NFB (National Film Board Canada) The title of the movie is “My Son Shall Be Armenian”
Hope you all enjoy it! Let me know what you think too? be ready for tears!
G
To CDEFG:
I agree wholeheartedly with you, as you wrote to AB. That, now is the time to implement the Wilsonian Armenia borders. Not recent Protocols which will paralyze the RA, and help Turkey to continue denial.
G
Yes AB, you understand me correctly. I’m saying that the fact that Article 301 exists as a law in Turkey means that Turkey is a country that does not tolerate open discussion. It illustrates the existence of a paranoid tendency in the face of criticism of public policy. It makes it easier for ultra-nationals to muzzle those they don’t like merely by accusing them of insulting Turkishness. How can you insult a concept? It doesn’t make sense to me.
I don’t want to argue with you about some of the things you are saying here that I disagree with because I suspect there is a bit of a language issue and we don’t always understand each other.
I also want to add to AB, I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue with those who have very divergent opinions from your own.
With respect, I want to suggest to you that part of being a good Armenian in Turkey means that you have to engage in a game of denial of the truth, as well as become very good at wearing a false face. Maybe you become so good at wearing the false face, that you forget what the real face looks like. Also much of what is taught in your schools is propaganda regarding the history of Turkey, the events of World War I, and relationship with Armenians. Please think about this.
Bari louys, yeghpayres
AMEN Gary jan…
What a great positive commentary… I got chills when I read it…
Long live Armenia and Armenians…as one body, one mind and one soul we will stand United… Lets just hope that we will be one with our lands yet again very soon….
Where can I buy or rent the movie you sugested? is this something we can view on the internet?
Gayane
Hello My Dear Friend Gayane:
For all who are interested (can’t see why not?) the National Film Board (Canada) abbreviated NFB…has the film for free viewing & one can also purchase a CD. I am not sure how much $. It’s a real life movie 80 minutes long.
Have you tried searching NFB? or Nationa Firm Board & then movie title “My Son Shall Be Armenian” ?
G
Again, the problem is always that there are many truths, and each one is valid for those who hold it to be the only answer. As an example…if I were color blind…my red would not be your red, yet it is the absolute ‘truth’ for both of us, and and if i were truly blind, my tree would not be your tree, my sunset would not be your sunset…and therein lies the problem. How to reconcile different truths without anger or hatred or violence. I am not defending lies here, just that this is a huge obstacle to overcome, as we can see everyday on this page and in our own lives.
Armenian commentators,
Please disregard this Karekin guy and pray that God gives him wisdom, set straight his misled and distorted mind. Karekin is clearly a xenophile, a ‘shur tvats’ Armenian who suffers from psychological discomfort of having an Armenian ethnic background but affinity to an alien culture only because his parents were originally from Turkey and because he apparently was treated with the typical Turkish flattery and appeasement when he visited the country. I also suspect that he might not be a follower of the Armenian Apostolic faith, if he has any Christian convictions at all. Otherwise he wouldn’t derogate the Son of God and cowardly avoid repenting for the insult.
Live in oblivion, Karekin. May God be with you…
Received this today via email:
Last Friday, April 9th, ARD, one of the biggest TV stations in Germany broadcast a 90-minute documentary on the Genocide of the Armenians. The documentary has incredible footage and it is full of damning evidence. The fact that it has been prepared by the Germans, the wartime allies of Turkey, makes it even more significant…
The producers have come up with the idea of having well-known current German actors impersonating the non-Armenian witnesses of the Genocide (Ambassadors, councils, nurses, military personnel, etc.) as if they are reciting their memoirs of the events in Anatolia during 1915-1916…
It is also significant that the documentary does not have financial sponsors of Armenian origin and it was broadcast in Germany where several million Turks live.
The documentary is in German, even if you can’t follow the narrative, the whole thing is worth watching…
With all of our Hollywood artists and strong Armenian presence in North America we haven’t come-up with such a strong documentary or video yet.
Hurry and watch this before it is taken off youtube.
Below are the links to the 10 segments:
1ère partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MtSaoEZLvQ
2ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fQYOB8XKtI
3ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv9ExBlYViw
4ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uve2Q_8fq0
5ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Is7PwSzDU
6ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_l2_iQqtw
7ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTdzPziJhI
8ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAGPDgs5sgk
9ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmB9MXH2d4I
10ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYcfqnJVQA
Many thanks, boyajian — This is very important news not only from the perspective of restoration of the historical truth and in support to the international recognition of the genocide, but, to me, if it’s viewed from a historical perspective. Germany was Ottoman Turkey’s ally and there is a plethora of historical evidence showing the German government’s duplicity during the WWI in tacitly endorsing the extermination of the Armenians by the Turks. Thanks so much for sharing this with us!
Gayane and all who are interested, here is the link to the film mentioned by Gary:
http://www.nfb.ca/film/my_son_shall_be_armenian/
To: Boyajian, Taguhi & friends
Thanks for the YouTube references. This German footage is a huge blow to the Turkesh. Has any of you asked “when will Germany write our nation a cheque (spelled check in the USA) $$$ for allowing all this damage to our people?” They could have officially & easily stopped the killings by so telling their junior ally. Instead many Germans joined in the hatred game!
Worried about building a railroad and running a war w/o regard for the safety/security of defenceless & innocent people. Oh…what ppeople do for money & power? Then, twenty years later they did a whole lot more destruction in WW2. And as we speak, useless wars are still going on all over the world.!
In the last while I have often wished to have learned more Turkish, more German, more Russian. This would have helped as most of the videos are verbal explanations or reviewing history in unknown (to me) languages, in this case, German.
G
Gary, the difference with the Germans is that today they admit their guilt, made restitution to the State of Israel and to Holocaust survivors and their leaders have apologized on behalf of the nation. Further, they boldly produced a damning documentary that exposes their complicity with the Turkish campaign against Armenians. I am waiting for a Turkish leader’s knee to bend, for a Turkish film maker to produce such a film and for Turkey to make restitution to the Armenian Nation.
To any Turkish film maker: The world needs a movie that shows Turks who are confronting the TRUTH and trying to come to terms with it; as well as movies that honor those Turks who helped Armenians at the risk of their own lives. In order to learn from genocide and prevent future genocides, we need to understand those people who courageously resisted the propaganda of hatred around them when others were being swept up into the hysteria of hatred and “eliminationism” (a term coined by Daniel Goldfagen, author of Worse Than War). What moral fortitude allowed these heroes to do what their neighbors couldn’t? I know there exist today, modern day Turks with this same moral fortitude. Can they be allowed to give voice to the truth within?
Of course, under Article 301, none of this can happen without the film maker being accused of insulting Turkishness. It is absurd. Any Turk who wants to confront his nation’s past, does so at great risk. AB are you listening?
Maybe an Armenian film maker will make such a film that not only asserts the truth of the genocide but also elevates the discussion to a more universal human exploration of the causes and remedies of genocide.
And to add to my previous comment:
We Armenians have something to give to the world beside our tears and our Christian martyrdom. We lived and are living the trauma of genocide. Let the philosophers, theologians, intellectuals, politicians, artists and common heroes among us begin to show the world what comes after the grief. Let’s harness our indignation at the monstrous crime committed against us to move humanity forward. (Karekin, are you listening? Obama are you listening?)
To Boyajian,
At the risk of seeming self-serving, myself and associates are in the process of making just the kind of film you have described that needs to be made. To quote you … “asserts the truth of the genocide but also elevates the discussion to a more universal human exploration of the causes and remedies of genocide.”
This film, called Red Harverst, deals with the deportation and death march of the 200+ Armenian intellectuals on April 24, 1915 with primary focus on Komitas. Importantly, it’s actually based on the true story, to include not only Komitas but other Armenian notables such as Rev. Krikor Balakian and Professor Diran Kelegian. What I appreciate most about the story though is the role of a young Turkish military officer who risks everything, and eventually pays for with his life, to help Armenians. If there is one central message to be taken from this film it is that the individual does matter, i.e. we can choose to do what is good and in so doing make a real difference to those around us. It’s my sincere hope that this film will inspire not only Armenians, but humanity in general, and Turks in particular.
To learn more about Red Harvest go to http://www.komitasthemovie.com
Bravo David!
I am aware of your film and will support it. I was not aware of the greater humanitarian angle and am glad to learn about this.
boyajian — Thanks for the link. It is sad to realize that a 3,000-year old civilization, a distinct Christian nation, has been wiped out because Germany (and Great Britain) feared Russian advance towards the Middle East through Armenian-populated vilayets of the Ottoman Empire. Germans and the Brits gave tacit approval to the Ottoman Turkish savages to exterminate the whole race in order to prevent Russians from gaining access to the oil-rich Middle East. But I agree with you: at least Germans could find courage and repent to the Jews and, it seems to me, the time is nearing for both Germany and the Great Britain to officially recognize the Armenian genocide. What the Turks are incapable of doing, and I have very strong doubts that they ever will be capable of, is to admit crimes, repent, and apologize to the victims. Some commentators here suggested that repentance should come from within Turkey. Hmm… I tend not to buy this knowing the Turks and their snakelike ability to avoid acceptance of guilt. I believe that Turkey will repent only when it’s brought to its knees by the efforts of the international community.
To Boyajian,
Much thanks for your encouragement on the film and for all your posts on this forum – thoroughly enlightening and inspiring. I especially appreciate that you and others are very diligent to consider the Armenian Genocide in all it’s complexity. For while the facts of the Genocide are certainly clear, the intentions of those involved are often vague at best. One of the motivations for this film is to get into the mind of, for example, Talat Pasha, e.g. what drives a man to commit such horrible acts? In contrast the question can also be asked, what is about a man that causes him, as in the case of the Turkish hero of the film, to do what is right despite the cost of his own life? Importantly the film also deals with the experiences of Armenians caught in the middle of genocidal horror. Who do they trust, and why?
Thanks, everyone, for all of your comments, which I will have to catch up with! Gayane, thank you for your kind words!! Shad shnoragalyem … Unfortunately, my Armenian is very poor, practically limited to baby talk! My parents spoke Armenian at home when they didn’t want me to know what they were talking about … unfortunately! It’s such a beautiful language, I have taken a class but did not have many people in my life at the time to practice with.
David, have you read Balakian’s latest, “Armenian Golgotha” for your film? The eye witness four-years-long experience is there in detail (according to him — I have the book but have not started), including the slow breakdown of Komitas who was with him.
Thank you everyone again, I have to read back now — many comments!
PS Last night I met an Armenian woman who was originally from Istanbul. I told her about our discussions here, and with AB and AB’s differing perspective from ours. She said that Armenians posting from within Turkey are not really free to say other things. As we have seen with other sympathetic Turkish people posting here, 301 reaches far into their homes and individual computer postings anywhere. So, AB, I understand there are things you can say and cannot say, and the same goes for all Turkish people. My new friend whom I met last night was completely dismissive of the possibility anyone can speak freely, and reminded me that we only have each others’ word for identity and even place of origin. However, other Turkish people posting here have clearly indicated they don’t really have the ability to express fully any sympathy … I just want to tell them that I understand this and they have conveyed themselves clearly. I don’t want anyone to suffer for nothing!
To Janine,
Actually the impetus for the film came from a Peter Balakian talk about his book, Armenian Golgatha, in LA that I attended about a year ago. It’s a long story, but essentially a descendant of one of Komitas’s select students approached me after the talk about making the film. As it goes, what emerged was a film that focuses on Komitas, but also sheds insight into other Armenian notables during the time of the Red Harvest (starting on April 24, 1915). Much of the source material for the film comes from Krikor Balakian’s memoirs, i.e. Peter Balakian’s book Armenian Golgatha. What Balakian writes is not only tragic, but also fascinating in it’s exploration of the depths of man’s depravity as well as the heights of self sacrifice.
David — I will support making of the film using the weblink you provided. Thanks for your efforts.
To CDEFG,
I hundred percent agree with you. Turkish Republic is born from the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. It is not its continuation, on the contrary! I also wonder why the Turkish government rejects the crimes of the Ottoman Empire.
Regarding validity of Lausanne or Sevres treaty we can debate for days, we can still not come to a conclusion.
Regarding the ratification of the protocols, Azeri issue has nothing to do with Turkish-Armenian protocol. Having said that, I do not think it is idiotic, because obviously Turks have a sympathy for the Azeris and Turkish politicians do not want to hurt the feelings of the Azeris. But I can tell you sooner or later the ratification will come.
To Janine,
I learned English in high school in Switzerland.
During Ottoman Empire the Greek population was not as Heavy as the Armenian one. And also what you are saying is not very logic. You are saying that Northern Africa should not be Greek because it was not heavily populated by Greeks, whereas Smyrna was heavily populated by Greeks therefore it should belongs to Greeks.
To Janine again,
I cannot comment on the Armenian woman from Istanbul. The only thing which is coming to my mind is that your lady friend is one of the paranoid old timers. I personally do not fear any persecution because of article 301 on the internet, on the street, or when talking with people. There are a lot of Armenian from the Diaspora which are coming to Turkey for various reasons. Have you already talked to them? Did they tell you that people in Turkey were fearing persecution? The only way you will be convinced will be for you to come to Turkey to see it with your own eyes.
I ENDORSE MSHECI’s FIRST POST,ADDING THAT PRIOR TO THE INT’L COMMUNITY,THE MAIN TWO HAVE TO SUPPORT OUR CAUSE,U.K AND U.S.
DROPPING THEIR HERETOFORE LENIENCY TO GREAT TURKEY.OTHERWISE WE HAVE TO PURSUE WHAT IN EXTENSION TO MSHECI’S, I HAVE THIS TO SUPPLEMENT.WE HAVE TO LOOK FOR ALLIES OR AT THE VERY LEAST SUPPORTERS OF OUR CAUSE IN SMALL AND MIDDLE SIZE COUNTRIES/STATES-THUS NOT GIVING UP PURSUIT OF OUR CASUE UNTILL SUCH TIME ,WHEN THE OTHER TWO ALSO BY AND BY LEAN OVER TO OUR CAUSE. THE FILM IN QUESTION-UNFORTUNATELY- IS UNKNOWN TO ME.I HAVE BALLAKIAN TWO BOOKS ONE THE BLACK DOG OF DESTINY(OR ANOTHER WORD) and the tigris is burning…book that I would suggest be -script written of firstly_IS ‘” m a m i g o n ” by Jack Hashian-now deceased..
IF THAT FILM IS MADE OUT OF THAT BOOK-IT WILL SURPASS THE JEWSIH “SCHINDLER’S LIST” …JUST BORROW AND READ THE BOOK FROM LIBRARIES -IT MUST BE OUT OF PRINT…NONE LEFT…OR PERHAPS IN ONE OF THOSE BOOK-SELLING LARGE STORES..
HE ….MY WRIT JUST POPPED BACK THAT IT IS DUPLICATE-THAT IS MY POST.IT IS NOT..I ONLY TRY TO POS IT…
G.P
AB – you wrote:
During Ottoman Empire the Greek population was not as Heavy as the Armenian one. And also what you are saying is not very logic. You are saying that Northern Africa should not be Greek because it was not heavily populated by Greeks, whereas Smyrna was heavily populated by Greeks therefore it should belongs to Greeks.
Honestly, I would have to check statistics before I agree to that. There were many Greeks all over Turkey, in many regions. And you are again twisting what I have said. First of all, I take issue with the notion that ethnic cleansing and genocide can be called “liberation.” Secondly, Northern Africa has nothing to do with our discussion, although it was once a part of ancient Greece. But North Africans did not treat Greeks and others as the Ottomans did. The Greeks in the Ottoman Empire were those subject to the same problems the Armenians were, under an oppressive yoke of taxation and lack of rights. I said, actually, that all of Turkey would have been better off if Greece won that war, and I believe that. Furthermore, the Greek/Turkish war happened at the end of WWI, after Turks had already been genociding Armenian, Assyrian and Pontic Greek population. NO comparison to anything remotely suggestive of Northern Africa. It is you who are making spurious arguments, committing every logical fallacy, which again leads me to believe you are either kind of not as smart as I thought or perhaps you are doing the usual — you are here just arguing for Turkey in any twisted way possible.
Then you wrote:
I personally do not fear any persecution because of article 301 on the internet, on the street, or when talking with people.
Well again, this has to be disingenuous. The woman has close ties to the Istanbul community and I believe her. Furthermore, Turks posting here (non-Armenians) have made it explicitly clear they cannot refer to the genocide as genocide even if they believe that because of 301. I also believe Pamuk’s own words and Dink’s about its use.
Hello, Shatagizoum
I will look for the book Mamigon by Hashian. Thanks for the suggestion.
I believe the film you are referring to can be found at this link:
To learn more about Red Harvest go to http://www.komitasthemovie.com.
I would not be so sure about modern day Turkey when trying to disassociate today’s Turk and the Ottoman of 100 years ago. I see no change in attitude between the “Republic of Turkey” and the “Ottoman Empire” towards the extirpated population of Anatolia. And why should they? This will continue until the forces of evil from beyond stop kissing the boot and remove the oily stain from their lips.
Re Greek population of Turkey:
The population of Greeks from Turkey (Asia Minor, Eastern Anatolia and Thrace) that were cleansed or fled and re-settled in Greece numbered altogether about 1.5 million. There were about 200,000 left in Istanbul in 1924 (who would mostly be cleansed in 1955 pogrom). That is in addition to the deaths from “deportation” and the same methods employed against the Armenians. The death toll in the Pontic region alone is estimated to be about 350,000 (from various scholarly sources) and that does not include Greeks from the whole of Anatolia. Quoting from Wikipedia: At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon is recorded as saying “a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died.” Many Greeks fled not to Greece but to various parts of the Soviet Union, by the way, so they are not included in these numbers. So, all in all, your estimates of the Greek population being far smaller than the Armenian are not correct.
Dear Boyajian…
Thank you so much for the links to every movie that was discussed in this forum. I have started to watch the German version of the story about our Genocide.. I just wish they had English subtitles.. However, we don’t need to be Germans to understand the overal story. Also, I am going to watch the movie that Gary M suggested.. I am preparing myself to watch that movie because I can already tell I am going to shed some tears… As always, you are an absolute greatness when it comes to writing your views and ideas.. Keep writing…..
My dearest Janine.. You are the delight of this forum.. Your commentaries bring such power and insights to our discussions that I cant imagine not reading them..I understand your dilemma about not being able to learn the Armenian language… It is hard when you don’t have Armenians around to practice the language. However, if you ever need someone to practice with, you just let me know and I will communicate with you.. :) And great response to AB’s commentary…
AB,
As I said before, and I am saying it again.. (you may ignor my comments.. I am ok with that..)… your views have been disqualitified by many already.. stop embarassing yourself… and when you start believing in yourself as an Armenian (from what you have told us.) and admit that what you represent and what you are saying is nonsense by simply protecting what Turkish govt taught you for years, maybe then we will take you seriously.. When you finally decide to search for your Armenian soul that stands for justice, truth and humanity, amongst many layers of fear and wrong teachings that accumulated in you over the years, we may then take your words seriously…. Until then, please don’t embarass yourself any more..
Dr Deranian, we are waiting patiently to see the movie Red Harvest… I truly appreciate the fact that you and your team took the burden and hard work to make this story a reality… not only teaching the history of the Armenian Genocide as it was but also injecting the human touch, the Turkish hero who put his life in danger to do the right thing.. I bow to those Turks who have done that for my ancestors and are doing it to this day.. THey are our true modern day heroes… If we did not have Article 301, we would have a huge tide of these heros emerging without fear to tell their story and separate them from the murderous Turkish govt… I pray to God that our Lord will protect these individuals and give them strength and perserverance to do what is right… God Bless them..
Dear Darwin,
I am afraid I have to agree with you.. Even though we have selected individuals who stand up for what is just and true (Turkish heros), the Turkish Govt is no different than the Ottoman Empire. According to AB, the people on the street are nothing like what their ancestores were yet we have not heard a peep from any of them to this day… All we heard is silence… I wonder why? AB… any idea why your people on the streets, the regular citizens are silence about this? Could it be because of Article 301 or could it be because they don’t know the history and don’t think the Armenian Genocide happened?.. What would you say about that?
I will be marching April 24th.. Hopefully that this year, our combined efforts and unity will make a difference.. This year will be one of the loudest and important years the world has ever seen..
Gayane
To Janine,
Traite de Sevres was the dismantling of Ottoman Empire which had lost the war against the allied forces. Anatolia was divided between Greeks, Italian, British, French and Armenians. What does the Independence War through which the allied forces (The countries above) were pushed has to do with ethnic cleansing? What did you expect, Adana to remain French or Antalya Italian?
Regarding your lady friend I cannot comment on what she says. I repeat what I said you should talk to people from the Diaspora who are coming to Turkey and get their feelings.
To AB,
I don’t know you but as a Turk living in Istanbul, I don’t usually express any of my opinions related to the genocide or related to politics when it opposes majority’s. None of my friends who share the same ideas with me like to discuss anything in public or on Internet. This is partly because knowing anything is possible here and partly because I met some ultra-nationalists and they scared me badly.
Dear Janine…the population of Asia Minor/Anatolia in 1914 was roughly 10 million, which was approximately equally divided between Armenians, Greeks, Turks and Kurds. Most Armenians lived in the eastern vilayets (2 million of them), where they had been for many thousands of years. Of course, there were also other, smaller groups, but in rather small numbers. The other regions of the Ottoman Empire at that time amounted to only about 8 million, giving the empire an overall population of about 18 million at that time.
AB – You can’t really believe that the ethnic cleansing and genocide going on in Turkey since 1915 and including all different Christian populations including the Pontic Greeks had nothing to do with Greek/Turkish war on the Greek side? Not to mention all the problems of being under Turkish occupation anyway for 400 years until they made their own revolution? I take issue with the term “liberation” and I still do. This is not anybody’s idea of liberation except in an ultra-nationalist dream of “pure race.”
Greeks fought a revolution again Ottoman occupation beginning in 1821 but it lasted decades as various parts of the Empire in which the native population was Greek were liberated from Ottoman rule… Crete for example was not finally free until after several revolutionary struggles and independence came around turn of the century and finally union with Greece in 1913. Of course Venizelos was a product of this struggle and was PM of Greece during WWI and Greek/Turkish war. Unfortuntely as usual foreign powers in the form of imposed royalty messed things up :-) But the point is this was a long struggle against Ottoman rule for the Greeks. My quoting statistics about Greek population in Turkey was a response to AB’s post that Greeks in Turkey were far less than Armenians which was not true.
PS Thank you everyone for your comments … (do not mean to ignore anybody)
AB, when you were in High school in Switzerland did you learn any German? If so, please check the links I posted earlier to the German made documentary about the Armenian Genocide which aired on April 9, 2010. It is quite enlightening.
To SG:
Your response to AB may be brief in length but it is very powerful in essence. Thank you so much for raising a voice of reason from within Turkey. This is very important! I strongly doubt, based on cases of Orhan Pamuk, Hrant Dink, Elif Şafak, Perihan Magden, Ragıp Zarakolu, Rahîm Er, and many other prominent Turkish intellectuals, that freedom of speech exists at all in Turkey.
I can state openly in Armenia that the genocide of the Armenians by the Turks never happened. The only possible consequence will be that people will look upon me as a mentally retarded person, but I WILL NOT be prosecuted, tried, expelled, or killed for stating that.
Go ahead, AB, try to state openly that Turks carried out deliberates race extermination (read: genocide) of the Armenians and see what happens with you in your country. Just as a test to prove whether you’re right or wrong about ‘freedom of speech’ in your country.
Janine,
Do you realize what you are saying? You are saying that 1.000.000 Greeks have been killed based on former British Prime minister statement. Do you realize that even the Greeks are not claiming such a. Do you know better than the Greeks?
AB – You’re twisting my words. I said (to repeat) that the Pontic Greeks alone suffered deaths which various historians agree on estimate to be 350,000. Certainly the estimates from the whole of Anatolia will be far higher. Essentially the numbers are not well-known – given that there are varying figures in terms of people who were deported and never known where they wound up, if they died, etc. According to Near East Relief reports at the time, btw, there were 5 million Greeks under Turkish rule at the beginning of the war.
Quoting from a website called Greek-Genocide.org:
“In the 4 November 1918 Ottoman Parliament Assembly session three Ottoman deputies raised the issue of the murder of 550,000 Greeks, the expulsion of 250,000 Greeks, and the death of 250,000 conscripted in Labor Battalions, indicating that one million Greeks had been victims to the Ittihadist policies. ”
Asia Minor Greek population at turn of century was approx 2 million
Here are more quotations, from Wikipedia
According to George W. Rendel of the British Foreign Office, by 1918 “… over 500,000 Greeks were deported of whom comparatively few survived.”In his memoirs, the United States ambassador to the Ottoman Empire between 1913 and 1916 wrote “Everywhere the Greeks were gathered in groups and, under the so-called protection of Turkish gendarmes, they were transported, the larger part on foot, into the interior. Just how many were scattered in this fashion is not definitely known, the estimates varying anywhere from 200,000 up to 1,000,000.”
Now you may believe that no American or British foreign service officer ever tells the truth, even to their own government, but I think that historians have already proven this argument false where the Armenian Genocide is concerned. And these are the same people reporting what they witnessed.
BTW the murder and persecutions of the Greeks started a year before the April 24, 1915 date from which we date the Armenian genocide, in 1914.
Here is the fuller quotation from Wikipedia on deaths of Greek in Anatolia (this is in addition to the deaths of Pontic Greeks)
Constantine G Hatzidimitriou writes that “loss of life among Anatolian Greeks during the WWI period and its aftermath was approximately 735,370.”[30][31]. At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon is recorded as saying “a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died.” Edward Hale Bierstadt states that “According to official testimony, the Turks since 1914 have slaughtered in cold blood 1,500,000 Armenians, and 500,000 Greeks, men women and children, without the slightest provocation.”
Really, history is all around. BTW I have read about a book published in Turkey co-authored by Dadrian and Akcam on the Courts Martial Trials in Turkey here:
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/04/07/dadrian-akcam-book/
Have you read this book? It may be enlightening
Anahit, thanks for expressing so well what others have been trying to point out.
Freedom of speech in Turkey is an illusion. Sometimes controversial statements are tolerated there in order to support the illusion, but in the end, the game is exposed by the existence of laws like Article 301 and the more subtle social pressure of fear of retribution from ultra-nationalists who seem to operate with little restraint.
There are some in Turkey who have begun to see past the illusion and want to move their country forward on the path to true democracy and respect for basic humanity (e.g., Taner Akcam, Orhan Pamuk, Hrant Dink, and more). However, (my opinion) the majority are so blinded by a desperate and false sense of pride over their perceived superiority that they are willing to accept distorted history and blatant lies as truth. It’s a compensatory kind of pride because the truth really is pretty awful. I can understand the desire to minimize and deny evidence which exposes the lies. Like a person sick with paranoia who projects onto an external source that which originates within their own psyche, Turkey desperately attempts to soothe their guilty conscience by suggesting that others are lying about them and insulting Turkishness. (Insert scoff here)
This is not to say that there is nothing to be proud of if you are a Turk. On the contrary, I think there is. But it is lost in the shadow cast by the ghosts of millions who wait for justice and for their truth to be told.
When Turkey begins to honor its true heroes, those who resist the bigotry and hate, then it will begin to heal its sickness. Until then the “sick man of Europe” is in need of its daily medicine of truth and accountability from those brave enough to speak it.
Thanks to all who have encouraged me on this site. Janine, Gayane, Gary, David, Msheci, Anahit, SG, Darwin, Shatagizoum and even Karekin and AB; this dialogue is so important and I look forward to reading all your contributions.
AB,
You put a different emphasis on my comment that twists its meaning. I said that the Turkish Republic is the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, and not that the new republic is ‘born from the destruction of the Ottoman Empire.’ Modern Turkey is its continuation in the capacity of a successor state. Succession refers to the transfer of rights, obligations, and property from a prior state to the new one (the successor state) that includes overseas assets, such as embassies, monetary reserves, etc., as well as participation in treaties, membership in international organizations, and debts. Rules of succession of states are codified in the 1996 Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties, if you’re interested.
Regarding validity of Lausanne or Sevres treaty we can, indeed, debate for days and come to no conclusion because none of us appears to be an international lawyer. But one thing is undeniable. After the Treaty of Versailles of 1919, President Woodrow Wilson was charged by the Allies powers to draft the Armenian portion of the disintegrated Ottoman Empire, which he did. The portion has included historically Armenian provinces of Van, Bitlis, Erzerum, Diyarbekir (In Arm: Tigranakert), Kharberd, and Sivas (in Arm: Sebastia). President Wilson also added the Trabzon province to give the new Armenian Republic a sea access. This Arbitrary Decision bears the Great Seal of the United States of America and is still valid, because the Decision was not materialized as Armenia fell under the Soviet control in 1921. There is no other official document in the U.S. government that defines borders of Turkey than this Arbitrary Decision.
As for ratification of the protocols, in politics having sympathy towards anyone or desire not to hurt feelings of anyone have no value whatsoever. Armenians has overwhelming sympathy towards Armenians of Artsakh (formerly Nagorno-Karabakh), as this Armenian province was placed under the Azerbaijani control in the 1920s by the Bolshevik Soviet rulers, but, nevertheless, the government proceeded with signing and ratification of the protocols. Turkish politicians do not want to hurt the feelings of the Azeris? How lovely… This is why Turkey joined Azerbaijan’s blockade of Armenia and Artsakh by closing the borders with Armenia? This is why Turkish military instructors were training the Azeries during the Karabakh war? Or this is why Turkey supports Azerbaijan in the international arena?
If you want to find excuses not to ratify the protocols, you’ll find dozens of them. This, obviously, means that you have no intention to ratify them. Ratification may come if Turkey realizes that it has nowhere to turn, but you won’t do it by your own. Just like you’ll never admit your guilt and repent for exterminating the Armenians unless you’re brought to your knees by the international community. Your name is ‘Turks’…
Ratification of the protocols by Turkey could come before April 24 if President Obama again sends a clear message that “G” is only the 7th letter of the alphabet. However, Turkey’s strongest backer on this matter is buckling due to intense world wide pressure.
At least SG is honest enough to tell everyone how Turkish Govt is doing everything to shut everyone who speaks of the Genocide.. AB you should pay attention to SG’s comments…
CDEFG, great commentary…
AB said:
Regarding the ratification of the protocols, Azeri issue has nothing to do with Turkish-Armenian protocol. Having said that, I do not think it is idiotic, because obviously Turks have a sympathy for the Azeris and Turkish politicians do not want to hurt the feelings of the Azeris. But I can tell you sooner or later the ratification will come.
AB you are contradicting yourself.. You are telling us that protocols have nothing do with Azeris, yet also stating that Turks are very symphathetic toward Azeris.. They do not want to hurt Azeris feelings.. what an idiotic statement to make… wooptidooooo… I am very happy about their concern, love and symphathy (do they even have all these characterisitics in them or are you just saying it to sound credible?); however they can be symphathetic by other means and leave our lands alone… Turks took much too much already from Armenians and now they are helping other muslim country to take the lands we WON back fair and scare? What a joke…..this matter along with the historic commission to try to murk the waterson the already proven Genocide is UNACCEPTABLE and will never be taken into consideration by any Armenian on this planet…Obviously you do not comprehend the intensity about these two matters which will put a stop on any protocols.. i dont’ care how politically correct or manipulative the govt is…it will NOT HAPPEN..So keep on dreaming that the protocols will be ratified.. as long as these two issues are brought on Armenians, it will never be ratified… You have not replied to my question.. Are you Armenian or are you a Turk? Do you feel any connection to your history and roots??? I am asking this only because you claimed to have Armenian blood then you should not have a problem stating as such… It is one thing to be proud of the country you live in, but it is another to be true to your heritage and history… Just because you live in Turkey, it does not mean you have to accept and cover the wrong doings of the govt… Majority of the Armenians live around the world… we are citizens of many countries.. however, we remain Armenians.. no matter what…
Thank you
Gayane
To CDEFG
It is noted that this is not what you meant. Nevertheless, Turkey dissociated itself from the Ottoman Empire, as far as I am concerned the Republique of Turquie is a new beginning.
Regarding the treaties, I agree President Wilson was put in charge by the allied forces to draw the borders, the same allied forces which also signed the treaty of Lausanne 3 years later limiting the Turkish borders to Anatolia.
The Treaty of Sevres was so illogical that besides the Greek parliament, it could not get approval in any of the parliaments of the signatory countries. In fact France declares already in 1920 that it would not ratify this treaty, while Italians drew their army from Anatolia.
Above I used the word “limiting”, because in fact the Kemalist armies who had fought the Independence war on all fronts (against Italian, French and British troops and also against the Armenians on the East front) had territorial claim on Iraq, Syria, Balkans, and Dodecanese Islands. Treaty of Lausanne was intended to limit Turkish claims. Allied forces (the same allied forces who had charged President Wilson 3 years ago to draw Turkish Armenian borders) was accepting the Turkish borders as they are today providing Turkey was passing outre on its other territorial claims.
The reason why the Wilsonian border could not be applied was not because Armenia felt under Russian control but because none of the allied forces believed in it and because Kemalists forces had started as of 1919 the Independence War pushing the Allied troops in Anatolia and Armenian troops in Kars, and most importantly because when the Treaty of Sevres was annulled and replaced by the treaty of Lausanne, the Wilsonian mandate had no longer any validity.
We can discuss during days on treaties, but treaty of Lausanne annulled and replaced the treaty of Sevres. This is not an opinion but historical fact.
Regarding the ratification of protocols may be I haven’t explained myself clearly. I do not think any different than you. But I still think that one way or the other the protocols will be signed. Ratification of Turkey will come sooner than you think.
Essentially the subject of the Wilsonian treaty was “dropped” by the big powers because of the Soviet Union and the shift of world political structure to the Cold War. Turkey no longer shares the position it once had in that respect. Hence, protocols, etc.
AB,
Well, of course, Turkey would dissociate itself from the Ottoman Empire. Why would the Kemalist government want to put the new republic at risk by acknowledging that its predecessor-state has exterminated virtually all ancient civilizations inhabiting the country? Why would the Kemalist government or any consecutive Turkish government for that matter want to be at risk by associating itself with genocide of indigenous peoples and thus receive punishment in the form of material reparations and restitution of lands? Of course modern Turks would dissociate themselves from the crimes of their own Sultans and the Young Turks to avoid punishment. But guess what? It doesn’t matter whether Turkey associates or dissociates itself from the Ottoman Empire, because there is an international law that governs succession process, such as the Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties article, wherein Article 34(1) states that “all new states remain bound by the treaty obligations of the state from which they separated.” Even if you think that the Republic of Turkey is a ‘new beginning,’ there exists the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide to which Turkey has acceded in 1950, which obliges all countries to prevent and punish actions of genocide in war and in peacetime.
And my own hardball question is left essentially unanswered by you. If you think that Turkey, as a ‘new beginning,’ can easily wash its hands from the crimes of its predecessor-state from which it effectively and timely dissociated, why wouldn’t your government acknowledge the genocide of 1.5 million of Armenians that an Ottoman government, from whom the new Turkish republic has dissociated itself, has committed? Or, maybe, there might be international consequences for crimes against humanity irrespective of your association or disassociation?
I think we already came to an agreement that not ALL and not THE SAME allied powers signed the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923. I think we’ve agreed that although the Republic of Armenia assumed responsibilities on account of the transfer of the territories under the Treaty of Sevres, Armenia was not a signatory to the Treaty of Lausanne. A newly-formed state, the USSR, has signed the treaty, a state that ceased to exist in 1991 and the Republic of Armenia re-appeared on the political map. But you keep repeating the same distorted points that we’ve already discussed and, I believe, agreed upon.
May I ask what source you used for this controversial statement: “The Treaty of Sevres was so illogical that besides the Greek parliament, it could not get approval in any of the parliaments of the signatory countries. In fact, France declared already in 1920 that it would not ratify this treaty, while Italians drew their army from Anatolia.” In course of the ‘war of independence’, as you call it, but what is known to historians as Turkish re-occupation of territories assigned to their inhabitants by the Treaty of Sevres, Turks fought Greek, Armenian and French forces and secured a territory similar to that of present-day Turkey. The Kemalists developed its own international relations by the Treaty of Moscow and the Treaty of Kars fixing the eastern borders with Bolshevik Russia in 1921. Both signatories to these treaties were illegitimate: Kemalist regime was not elected and representative government of Turkey and Bolshevik regime was not elected and representative government of Russia. The outcome of Turkish re-occupation forced some of the former allies of WWI to return to the negotiating table with the Turks and in 1923 negotiate the Treaty of Lausanne, which recovered large territory in Anatolia and Thrace for the Turks. But the Republic of Armenia was NOT a signatory to that treaty.
I have no idea where your nightmarish idea about ‘none of the allied forces believed in the Treaty of Sevres’ came from? As well as where you got the idea that the ‘Treaty of Lausanne annulled and replaced the treaty of Sevres’ and that ‘the Wilsonian mandate had no longer any validity’? Nowhere in the text of the Lausanne Treaty could I find such a provision. The Wilsonian Mandate was never materialized because in 1921 the Republic of Armenia, for which the Mandate was primarily designed, ceased to exist as an independent state, and, I repeat, the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923 between Turkey, former WWI allied powers and the USSR. The USSR disintegrated in 1991 and, thus, the only valid treaty that defines the borders between Armenia and Turkey, and is SIGNED by official, legitimate representatives of Armenia and Turkey, among other signatories, is the Treaty of Sevres of 1920 which is based on the US Great Seal-affixed Wilsonian Award that never lost its judicial validity.
As for the protocols, I think Turkey will ratify them only if it’ll face recognition of the Armenian genocide by the U.S. government and/or world-wide recognition that is underway. Or, maybe, indeed, in order to prevent the genocide word being used in this year’s US President’s Annual Address to the Armenian People, Turks would hastily ratify them. But even if that happens, there’s no way that Armenians ever cease their recognition efforts all over the world. Make no mistake…
To :AB
As I said earlier, True Armenians must reject these unfair ‘protocols’.
To: Gayane
Once again you have spoken loud and clear! It seems God has created the likes of you to tell it as it is! Thank you for being brave!!
To: Boyajian
Thank you, again, for your eloquent & to the point writing!
I think the protocols are another sign of big power meddling, their endless drive for oil and their pathetic response to anything Armenian for about 125 years. The protocols do not contain any bona fide guarantees for Armenia, and are slanted heavily toward the needs ot the west and its proxy states, Turkey and Israel. This is one of the biggest business deals on the planet right now, yet Armenia is expected to sit by and trade its history and security for an empty shell. We should all remember how Khrimian Hayrig was treated in the halls of Europe…..he left depressed and empty handed. No one can allow this to happen again, because the first truly azad and viable Hayastan in 700 years cannot be allowed to fail. That is the bottom line. Now, if the powers who are pulling the strings want to advance a proposal that will actually help Armenia and its people, then perhaps there is room to discuss an outcome, but until then, Pres. Sarkisyan is right to play his cards carefully and not sign anything under pressure.
To: CDEFG
Sometime soon, hopefully, AB, as well as many otehrs, will recover from this dizziness, and find his Armenian blood is far more precious than his trying to persuade us to think that Turkey is one who has the truth!
Thank you for your patience to attempt to teach him TRUTH! We all know truth sets us free.
AB: this is what Jesus said “Then you will know the TRUTH & the Truth will set you free” Did you learn German & watch the videos on YouTube? Or Is YouTube banned in Turkey?
G
Mersi Gary jan… always appreciate your feedback. I also watched “My Son Shall be ARmenian”.. Very heartwarming and heartbreaking story.. I definintely shed tears watching the documentary… I shed tears because those survivors whose dream to return to their lands and rest in peace never happened… Hence, why i will fight as long as I can to make sure that our children do not grow up longing to put foot on our lands under someone else’s government…they shall and WILL walk on the lands of our ancestors…. and it won’t be “WERE” but “ARE” our lands…..
CDEFG… excellent response to AB…as always.. love your fierce responses…
Gayane
All of you should stop waisting your time
Your time is precious.
You cannot teach the unteachable.
From my experience I can say,
“If child’s IQ is low.
Thy will get some training
But, can thy become professor of law?”
To CDEFG,
Before I comment your above post step by step, I would like to make the following statement to some of commentators on this site :
– Some have stated that “I am embracing the wrong cause” because I am in favor of the Protocols. It was further stated that the Diaspora rejected the protocols. My opinion may differ from the ideas of the Diaspora, and it does not mean that I am wrong.
-Some have stated that I am in “denial”. May I know what am I denying? On the contrary, I have clearly stated that crimes committed should not go unpunished and that Turkish Government should recognizes mistakes its ancestors committed.
-Some have stated that I am “brainwashed”. What idea that I am defending make you think that I am brainwashed. On the contrary, I think that commentators claiming that I am brainwashed are themselves brainwashed. From the young age they are taught that Turkey=Bad. Well sorry if I do not agree with you.
-Some have stated that I am protecting what the Turkish Government taught me. What have I been protecting?
-On the territorial claim issue, my view differs from some(most) of the commentator’s views. Armenia was conquered some 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.
CDEFG, on your comments to my post….
So, let’s ask…how many of those who are pushing the fantasy that eastern Anatolia should be returned to Armenians would actually move there, buy a farm and start living as their ancestors did 100, 500 or 2000 years ago? I trust that most of you haven’t even moved to Hayastan yet. In America, war mongers who have never fought in a war but constantly push for war are called ‘chicken hawks’…these are people who are too afraid for their personal safety, but are very willing to advocate war for others…maybe we need a more descriptive nomenclature for those who have never stepped foot in Turkey or Armenia, yet feel they have every right to dictate how they function or that they have all the right answers. Any suggestions?
AB
You’re a great provoker,
Do you want to Turkify Us?
We’re born free we will live free
Even in an arid desert
Under the strong sun
Without green trees,
And able to teach deniers
What a real democracy means.
If you know Turkish,
Remember their proverb
That says, “The life turns like a wheel”
So let us be pessimistic to reach the impossible
And let the wheels turn to where the justice exists .
Let truth invade and abolish invaders
who wanted to abolish us and could not accomplish.
We are living the Internet Century,
If they invaded us 500 years ago
By their scimitars
The Internet can invade them
And abolish their aggressive ‘cruel genes’.
It was less than a month ago
When Mr. Erdogan said, ( March 17, 2010)
“I will throw all Armenians out .
”
Now the world seems shocked by his speech.
Turkey will be divided soon between Kurds and Allowes
And then Armenians will achieve their dreams.
Anatolia will return to thee original ancestries.
Written Instantly
“Provovation can lead to creation”
Armenia was conquered some 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors
There is such a thing as the right to self-determination, the right to be free of certain kinds of oppression, and the international law that protects civilians and outlaws abuses of power. Of course international law may be ineffective in enforcement. But your attitude says that every big power can do whatever it wants, genocide is nothing — if you insist that territories cleansed and genocided are fairly gotten. The Republic of Turkey is abusive in this respect and with respect to aggression on its neighbors — especially Cyprus which is illegally occupied and has been forcibly settled with Turks from the mainland in order to change the facts on the ground. The properties are still stolen, people are still cleansed, aggression still unacceptable. It comes from the mentality that somehow “conquering” justifies everything in and of itself. Recently there are elections in Turkish occupied Cyprus (now that it has been forcibly filled with settlers via the Turkish government), but for the majority of the time it has been occupied all democratic institutions were halted. The Turkish Cypriot native population has been unhappy under this rule as well, preferring independent Cyprus, under which they had more rights.
And, under this mentality, every year Turkey continues to make provocations against its neighbors and around the Greek islands. Last year, a Greek plan crashed over Crete in one of these idiotic skirmishes. But they happen every year, especially in the summer. They are clearly violations of international law, but Turkey commits them every year due to this mentality that once they conquered, they owned — even though the native language of all inhabitants is Greek and always has been.
correction to my post above: plan = plane
“once they conquered” (meaning their ancestors)
To CDEFG,
What you are stating is in historical distortion. Are you claiming that Kemalist government dissociated itself from the Ottoman Empire to hide crimes committed. This is a pure invention. If you have any supporting historic documents please let me know which ones.
Regarding your “hard ball question” I have already replied to you. I also ask myself the same question you are asking me. In my view, the taking responsibility is going to come very soon. And the protocols will accelerate it!
I never said that Armenia was present at the signing of both protocols. But as nobody from the allied power asked Turkey its opinion when splitting its territory between allied forces, nobody asked Armenia its opinion when taking back the illusion of an independent Armenia. This is a sad reality!
Regarding my sources it is mainly from my personal knowledge (not what I was thought by the denialists), and as supporting documents you can look at wikipedia which talks about most of the ideas I am defending.
To Janine,
You are distorting what I am saying. I did not say one word of what you are saying above.
Besides what does the plane crash over Crete has to do with what we are talking?
You are mixing everything! Your last paragraph is the peak of your mixed ideas. As I said above, since for you Turkey=bad there is nothing I would do or say which will make you consider other views. Perhaps you should take Karekin advice and start by visiting Turkey. Then you should go to Eastern Anotolia and see if you like it. Who knows maybe you will not even like it there!
Listen, AB:
Turkey’s invasion of a sovereign state of Cyprus, a full-fledged member of the United Nations, was put into motion in 1974, which makes it, as of now, 36 years ago. If you think that 500 years after the Turkish conquer of indigenous Armenian lands does not give the right to Armenia to claim territories, does just 36 years after the Turkish occupation of Cyprus island give the Greek Cypriots the right to claim their territory back?
You, the Turks, have always been and will always remain, nomadic tribes with nomadic psychology of occupiers and scorchers of other nations’ lands. But what you will, eventually, understand is that for every conqueror and illegitimate possessor of the lands of others there has always been and will always be a stronger power or a set of circumstances that would teach you a lesson that no conquer goes unpunished. And I think that in the modern times it will be the Kurds who will be such a strong power…
AB and Karekin, glad to see that you guys are still here discussing.
To AB, I may suggest that you are allowing yourself to be overly influenced by the powers that be in Turkey but I never suggested a lack of intelligence on your part. You clearly have knowledge, however in my opinion you twist the words of others and have a hard time accepting the idea that the “facts” you have gleaned from your “history” lessons have been tainted. You may say the same about me, but I am glad we both agree that Turkey must admit to its crimes.
I wish you were not so willing to see the ancestral homelands of the Armenians remain in the hands of those who stole it. 500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people and then claim our resources, wealth and cultural artifacts as their own. Turkey not only denies our past but it stole the future of millions. Is this really that easy for you to accept? Is this the legacy your ancestors would have you accept? Is this the world you believe your creator intended? A world where the aggressor wins because of over-powering strength and morality be damned.
The world has evolved in these 500 years and so should we humans; especially with respect to how we treat one another, the basic rights of fellow human beings and the responsibilities of states and people-nations toward one another. If we can flush toilets, turn on light switches and take medicine to cure our diseases; all things that didn’t exist 500 years ago, should we really accept an archaic concept like ” divide and conquer” as still valid today?
Reparations will be a difficult and complex issue but that does not mean we should not work toward a just resolution. You are in a position to help bring a good resolution and to change the world. We in the diaspora have as many divergent views as those of you in Turkey but we still need to come together on the side of truth and justice. Put fear and social pressure aside and embrace your inner “Hrant.” I wish you peace and a clear conscience.
My sincere thanks to all on this post for you encouraging words in regards to the film, Red Harvest, that my associates and I are working on. I especially appreciate the views expressed that we as Armenians are open to an Olive Branch approach, so to speak, with the Turks at least as far as films go, i.e. clearly portray the horror of the Genocide while also emphasizing the role of good Turks in doing what they could to mitigate the circumstances.
I also wanted to mention, that while my current schedule does not permit extensive writing on this post, I have thoroughly enjoyed the discourse here. What’s clear to me is that despite the contradicting opinions, what’s being shared on this post is generally intelligent and passionate. For example, the discussion about Wilsonian Armenia, vis a vis the treaties of Sevres and Lasaune, is absolutely fascinating, and points to the need to understand such history in light of the Protocols.
The commentaries also make point that I believe (apologies if I’m assuming to much) Karekin is making, i.e. we need to tread carefully as our beloved Armenia, an independent state after so many centuries, is right in the middle of the biggest game in town, OIL. As Karekin emphasizes, the big powers are in this game for their own interests. The question it seems to me is, how can Armenia optimize it’s own interests relative to others, including and perhaps most importantly, Turkish interests. For example, the biggest population center that is closest to historical Western Armenian is, big surprise, Yerevan. How do we make the most of that fact? I have been to both Western and Eastern Armenia and can say from my limited perspective, it’s complicated to be sure. Nevertheless, there is much we can do to build on what we already have, to further the Armenian Cause.
Karekin, forgive me for this clumsy analogy, but you remind me a bit of the female partner in a traditional Armenia couple dance. You entice and rebuff, and circle and run, all the while playing with the power at your finger tips…
You do keep us thinking. I agree with your recent post on the protocols and the danger of Armenia being given a paper ladle at the negotiating table. We can’t let this happen. Nor can we compromise the integrity of our small republic which is a mere remnant of what it should be.
As for your question regarding how many are willing to return to Asia Minor (not Anatolia) and live as their ancestors did; this is really a specious argument, isn’t it? Who today lives as their ancestors did 100, 500 or 2000 years ago? Had our ancestors been left unmolested on their soil, I am sure that much would have evolved in their lifestyle. I would guess that with the Armenian characteristics of adaptability and intellectual flexibility, these now murdered Armenians would have embraced modernization in farming, medicine, industry and education. Please have more faith in your people and let your imagination go. I can picture the cell towers and TV stations and smell the ghoong wafting from the churches as I write.
As far as chicken hawks go… I do not seek or advocate a war with Turkey. I do not seek to shed one drop of Turkish blood (which shares much DNA with Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Arabs and even Jews). I, as many on this forum have expressed, do not hate the Turks. I can even envision a future of forgiven transgressions that develop into mutual respect and cooperation as neighboring nations. But to give up the dream of an Armenia having borders resembling something closer to the historically respectful vision of President Wilson; that I am not ready to do. At the very least, Armenians deserve an area of territorial self-determination within Asia Minor. Yes there will be difficult negotiations with the Kurds, but this doesn’t deter me. Allow me my simple idealism. Right is right and truth is truth and persistence, patience and intestinal fortitude are all integral to revolutionary change. Laugh if you must. But don’t ask Armenians to limit their possibilities based on pessimism borne of years of oppressive domination.
Regardless of your religious convictions, if you have ever witnessed the Holy Thursday Washing of the Feet service, you know the vision Jesus Christ had for His world. But while I am willing to “wash the feet” of my Turkish brother, I will never let those same feet trample me; a sin that taints Christ’s vision. And don’t distort the lesson of “turning the other cheek”. We Armenians don’t have a literal interpretation of the bible, but a literary one. All things are to be interpreted within their context and within the whole at the same time. A difficult and enlightening endeavor for those who seek to “raise their consciousness” as you recommended to another writer in a previous post of your own.
AB, the idea that conquered territories = end of story has come up repeatedly in our discussions. You needn’t call the kettle black or repeat my words to you to “win” an argument. In fact, it’s silly and something I therefore can’t take seriously. I’m actually wondering about your age. Furthermore this notion of conqueror as de facto winner comes up repeatedly in discussions with Turks that I have encountered recently (also posted on this site and in our discussions) with respect to their perspective on the surrounding regions and the way the education system works. Even your notion of “liberation” reflects the attitude and is informed by this system of education and this embedded idea in the culture and psyche of the country — not to mention its foreign policies.
Of course the hypocrisy of Erdogan’s condemnation of Israel (especially the claims of genocide) is glaring. I wonder how many internally are free enough to think or to point this out? I am certain that some newspaper commentators must at least observe it, but I wonder if they say it.
As for the protocols, I think Armenia — as a deliberately landlocked country (here we go back to the Wilsonian picture and what exactly has hurt Armenia as a whole) – will benefit from the open borders and diplomatic relations they call for. But Armenia has always had a policy of open borders and diplomatic relations! It is Turkey, on the contrary, which has maintained a blockade and refused diplomatic relations with Armenia. So, the protocols for the Armenian side introduce nothing new in terms of its policy, they just would ask the Turks to accept such policies reciprocally. Karabagh and the historical view of the Genocide were never intended to set pre-conditions, much as the Turkish side would like to use the excuse to implement such. And that’s the reason they won’t pass in the Turkish parliament, because Turkey is demanding these pre-conditions and as usual attempting to leverage aggression into diplomacy.
As for US and Russian etc interests, I have no doubt that open borders is their biggest need for various reasons, although I would like to hear more ideas about this. So far what I have heard is about interest for oil and war in Afghanistan (which by the way, Armenia has contributed to with support personnel such as transport drivers etc including in Iraq).
PS just to make it clear since apparently my point was not understood, the modern day aggression is simply a symptom of the mentality that might makes right. Conquered territory is always just up for grabs, never mind the inhabitants. It is reflected in the behavior and attitudes.
Sorry Boyajian,
You are twisting what I am saying!
Did I say that that 500 years of domination gives the right for comitting any crimes? On the contrary, you should treat nicely and honour your subjects.
I also agree a just resolution should be found.
AB, just a quick note: Wikipedia is not an entirely reliable resource for information on these issues because it has been compromised by parties deliberately trying to promote their own propaganda. I guessed that this was your resource from some of the things you have written. I recommend you rely on the writings of respected historians like Vahakn Dadrian among others.
To MSHECI
What has Cyprus to do with what we are discussing now. If you want we can start a new forum on Cyprus and believe me it will take pages of discussion.
Your last para is the usual chip talks to which I have been accustomed by some of the brainwashed commentators.
To Boyajian,
I read your comments with great pleasure. You are aspiring to a better world.
Unfortunately, the principles of “devide and conquer” is still valid today. In the past maybe it was with the strength of the sword today it is with economic power.
There is nothing you or/and I can do about it.
AB,
One should be very cautious to call other person ‘historical distorter.’ Everyone is entitled to have his or her opinion, but that doesn’t give you upper hand to stigmatize an opinion that differs from yours as ‘distortion.’
I could give you tons of supporting documents that exist in the secondary literature written by Armenian scholars, but since you’re, clearly, anxious and suspicious about anything that Armenians say, here’s a thorough analysis of Mustafa Kemal’s cleansing philosophy and its manifestations. Please see Erik J. Zurcher, “The Rise and Fall of Modern Turkey” in the Turkology Update Leiden Project Working Paper Archive for Turkology. University of Leiden Update, 2001. Please also see Section III: ‘The Investigations and Prosecution of the War Crimes and Genocide’ in your own Turkish author’s work “A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility” by Taner Akcam, Henry Holt and Company, NY, 2006.
Mustafa Kemal initially condemned the mass murders committed by his predecessors against the Armenians, but once his control of the republic was established, he acted to scrub clean the history and myths on which the republic was constructed. To cope with what he considered a blemish on Turkish nationalism and a disadvantage to becoming Europeanized, Kemal created institutes in the Turkish government whose sole function was to sanitize Turkey’s history. Rewriting the past to meet political and psychological ends became standard practice in the republic and is part of the legacy that Kemal bequeathed to his successor.
Erik Zurcher, a prominent Turkologist, says: ”All too often in the field of Turkology, we forget that the modern state of Turkey was built on ‘ethnic cleansing’ on a massive scale.”
Kemalist historians depict the republic as a new state forged by the hand of Kemal. However, many other, non-Turkish scholars, see the republic as an outgrowth of the Young Turk revolution and its crimes, with just some cultural evolution. Under the virtual dictatorship of Mustafa Kemal, much of the references to crimes committed in the Ottoman era were removed not only to shape a vision for Turkey that promised to be very beneficial for ethnic Turks, but also to avoid punishment, reparations and restitutions for those crimes. The republic that Kemal handed to the Turks in 1938 was considered a finished ‘new’ product. Deviation from Kemalism was and still is considered “straying from the path of the father.” Deviation became tantamount to treason, and laws, such as Article 301 of the Penal Code, were enacted.
You claim: ‘as nobody from the allied power asked Turkey its opinion when splitting its territory between allied forces, nobody asked Armenia its opinion when taking back the illusion of an independent Armenia.’ Turkey was an empire, a prison of indigenous nations that were enslaved for centuries and that struggled for national liberation from the Turkish yoke. That is why, as well as the fact that Turkey had lost in the WWI, was the reason that Ottoman Empire was split and noone asked for Ottomans’ opinion. And, please, hardly all of the territory in any empire is considered ‘its.’ World doesn’t see empire’s territory as ‘its’ territory. World sees it as territory on which ancient inhabitants, such as Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians and many others, lived long before they were conquered by the Turks. Try to put yourself in our shoes, if you can, and look at what happened from the perspective of these ancient peoples.
As for Armenia, nobody could physically ask Armenia for its opinion in the early 1920s because: first, Armenian Question was delegated to President Wilson and he designed the Mandate fro Armenia; and second, by the time the Mandate was ready, Armenia was already Sovietized.
By the way, thank you for believing that Turkish government’s responsibility for the crime against the Armenians may come soon. I’m absolutely unsure whether the protocols will accelerate it, though. I think Turkey’s fear for widespread international recognition of the genocide will accelerate it. But thanks, anyway.
P.S. In the West we never rely on Wikipedia to cite it as a source. Wikipedia is the most controversial and unreliable source because anyone can alter it. Try to look in other sources, your own, for instance. One such source exists in the Turkish National Archives: it’s the Turkish Military Tribunal Verdict of 1919 that acknowledged massacres of the Armenians as an act of race annihilation.
Greeks still today does not accept Turkish population in Western Mecedonia, Greece. People call themselves as Turks but greeks says NO. What is this….
Mubadele -exchange – between the Turkish and Greek government after wwwI and Greeks invasion of Anadolu in 1920s.
It was the Turkish empire which fell a part and divided in to many parts by the western powers. Turks always been here and will be here too. French, Brit, italians, Russians and Germans and europeans always used the Christian minority in Turkey against the ruler Turks.
You all portray Turks as devils, barbarians, killers and all the bad things.. That is your thoughts,,,
Turkish empire lost the war and paid heavily, lost of its population and soldiers in all areas of the empire.. Turkish people drove out the french, italians, russians, greeks , Australians, New Zealanders and Brits . Turks defended the territory and won at least this part. No one has anyu right to decide what Turkey and Turkish territory look like, NOT Wilson, Churcill, Curzon and Stalin. Please read what Stalin did to Turks in Georgia , crimea , Armenia..
If Turks are the occupiers then Armenians are too, americans are too, French devils are too, russians are too, Who else.. I will leave that up to you to find out…
people always finds out the realities one way or another…
Well, the historical reality is that for much of the last 3000 years, Armenians have lived under the rule of foreign powers and were only able to achieve true independence when external factors caused those powers to falter or crumble. These episodes are few and were not very long lasting. The Seljuks arrived about 1000 years ago, followed by the Ottomans about 600 years ago and Armenians achieved a workable symbiosis with both. But, in the late 19th C. the equation began to change yet again and this led to the demise of the Ottoman, as well as other empires of the day. As they say, when elephants fight the grass gets trampled….we were the grass and paid the price. I guess my point is that if you are pro-Armenia, then you must – above all – give your utmost support to the existence of an azad Hayastan…whatever the boundaries might be at the time. While we all may have romantic notions about Anatolia, I think that’s where they should remain, so our focus can be today’s Armenia and those who work very, very hard to live there. It may sound harsh, but I just think it is prudent, realistic and practical. A mature rapproachment with Turkey might result in improved conservation and restoration of Armenian sites, and that is something really worth working for, because those represent our irreplaceable heritage, no matter where the border lies. If Turkey is willing to help with that, we should show our appreciation, because they don’t have to do anything, except as a gesture of goodwill. There are no laws, no requirements so we must not only enourage it, but support it in any way we can. Plus, it benefits both peoples in many important ways.
To CDEFG,
One additonal deep note.
You are stating that the treaty of Lausanne has no validity because Armenia was not present at the signing. I am just wondering who signed the treaty of Alexandropol?
I suggest you look at article 10 of this treaty (signed by Prime Minister Khadissian on behalf of Armenia) where Armenia renounces to the treaty of Sevres and to the Wilsonian border!
Hello Friends,
Have you seen this episode on CNN? I got a glimpse of this clip because ANCA Ken Hachikyan sent an e-mail for everyone … I simply wanted to throw up.. just looking at his face, I want to throw up.. I am disgusted by this man and his gang.. simply disgusted.. the lies he spews…
http://www.anca.org/donations/erdogan_amanpour.php
Has anyone seen the full clip? Do you know where we can obtain that???
Thank you
Gayane
Sylva.. you hit the bulls eye with
“If child’s IQ is low.
Thy will get some training
But, can thy become professor of law?”
Your poems have passion, power and truth to it.. Thank you for always enlightening us with your writing..I truly enjoy reading them..
AB— the more I read what you have to say.. the more I get turned off.. I am getting really frustrated by your comments.. someone needs to slap you from your dellusional dream.
Boyajian: as always.. bravo.. simply bravo.. i have no words to describe what I feel when i read your comments.. it is pure genious… I am proud that you are an Armenian..
That goes to Janine, Gary, Dr. Deranian and CDEFG..
I feel so frustrated that this much knowledge is wasted on t he likes of AB, Robert (from another site.. another Turk), Ahmet… as well as waste of our time like Sylva stated…but then again, there may be a streak of light at the end of the tunnel.. maybe we can turn these people around by telling them the true story over and over… who knows?? they may finally realize the reality of the matter…that what happened and is currently happening is undeniably unacceptable.. If one is blocked from outside sensors and feelers and does not understand on his or her count, then preaching or teaching or showing could be a challenging matter..all I know and all everyone knows except the denialists that 1915 gave birth to the Red Genocide… The White Genocide was born in the 21st Century and continues to this day….. …
Hope that one day this tide of fear and uncertainty and weakness will shift toward a better wave…making those living in Turkey to rise and speak out on how they truly feel and acknowledge the fact that their ancestors did commit the First Genocide of the 20th Century….and stop hiding behind their closed doors and whispering among themselves …not much help to those who need their voice…
Karekin.. just like Boyajian described you… I too agree with his observation…..
Gayane
To AB –
I’ll tell you who are brainwashed. Brainwashed are those who believe that numerous historical, cultural, architectural, religious, and other artifacts that are spread all over Turkey belong to the Seljuk/Turkish “culture.” Brainwashed are those who believe that ‘honorable’ and very humane by nature Turks have never done harm to indigenous, ancient peoples inhabiting Asia Minor for millennia, but it were outside powers who partitioned your filthy Ottoman Empire, the prison of nations and the sick man of Europe (or, rather, Central Asia/Altay, which would be more appropriate geographic toponym in the case of the Turks). Brainwashed are, as we exchange these comments, those millions of Turkish children for whom your denialist government has distributed 12 mln DVDs depicting how Armenians(?!) committed mass murders of poor, peace-loving, and compassionate Turks. What a despicable, cheap, and dishonorable measure! Brainwashed are those who kill their own intellectuals like Hrant Dink in the daylight only because he wouldn’t sing the old denialist song by the majority of your brainwashed citizens. Brainwashed are those who threaten and expel Nobel Prize laureates like Orhan Pamuk instead of taking the pride of his accomplishments. You want to swallow more truth, or I’d rather have mercy and stop here?
Regarding Cyprus. I responded to your bizarre comment, I quote: ‘Armenia was conquered 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.’ I asked a simple question with regard to this claim of yours: If you think that 500 years after the Turkish conquer of indigenous Armenian lands does not give the right to Armenians to claim territories, does just 36 years after the Turkish occupation of Cyprus give the Greek Cypriots the right to claim their territory back?’ Neither I nor the majority of intellectuals all over the world would need a new forum on Cyprus that will take pages of discussion. Whoever is literate and can read the course of events back in 1974 knows that a sovereign nation has been invaded and occupied. If you think this may sound Turkophobic, then be aware that I equally condemn the U.S. occupation of Iraq, although I know that eventually the U.S. will withdraw, unlike the Turks…
Kurt, I don’t understand. You mean Western Macedonia is now supposed to be a part of Turkey?
To Karekin,
What you write causes me to remember the first time (September 2003) I set foot in Hayastan, or more specifically, when I saw Mt. Ararat. There it was, like I had imagined and dreamed about since I was a boy. To think that there is an independent Armenia in the 21st century … personally I consider it a kind of miracle … and one for which I am extremely grateful.
Do I dream of a Greater Armenia … one stretching to the Black and Mediterranean Seas? Absolutely and if it’s in my power to do so then I will work for that. However, as you stated Karekin, we must above all give our utmost support to the existence of an azad Hayastan…whatever the boundaries might be at the time.
Another remembrance that comes to mind was during my first visit to Hayastan when I met a very distinguished group of scientists who, despite very little financial support, were working diligently to keep a major science research center open that was well respected during Soviet times but had fallen into severe disrepair when I visited. I will never forget what the director said to me as I was leaving. Please he said, we do not want handouts … we just want to earn our living in science here in Armenia. It still breaks my heart to think about that man and his fellow Armenian scientists.
Concerning Armenia’s boundaries, there is another point I want to bring up for discussion, having to do with the concept of national boundaries in the modern world. Is it not possible that in the relatively near future, national boundaries will have very little meaning? The EU comes to mind here as well as virtual communities of which this comment posting is an example. I bring this up not to discourage in any way active pursuit of Armenian lands, but rather to emphasize the need to keep our culture alive and well, especially in Hayastan. If for example, the borders between Armenia and Turkey are someday opened, are we ready to bring Armenian culture back to places like Van, Erzerum, Kars, Kharpert and Mush? The fact that Yerevan is a major population center of the region could provide, if we are ready, great opportunity to essentially re-Armenize the land. Who knows, maybe in 100 years or so the dominant culture in eastern Asia Minor would once again be Armenian, not by destroying, but by ways so characteristic of Armenians, intelligence and creativity.
One last remembrance, this one when I visited Van back in 2002. The locals there (Kurds I suppose) said to the Armenian tour group I was with that they wished Armenians were still in Van as life was so much better when Armenians were around. What a beautiful legacy we have as Armenians, those that make life better, not just for Armenians, but for all those around us.
A few months ago I happened to have walked by a world map of locations where synchrotrons (major scientific research facilities that essentially are super-microscopes) were located throughout the world . There were only about 40 locations on the map. Can you imagine by amazement and gratitude that Armenia was on the map, the only one besides Jordan/Israel even close to the middle east? Turkey was not on that map, nor Iran, or Syria or … What this means for Armenia of course is that researchers from all over the world will be coming to Armenia to do world class scientific research and with that, honor and respect. Perhaps then, this is the way to our future, an Armenia known not for it’s savagery, but rather for it’s creativity and intelligence that benefits the world as a whole.
JANNNN MSHECI JANNNN.. apres.. Excellent comment..
Thank you for saying it as it is.. maybe AB may stop for a minute and realize that what he thinks he knows it is a simple illusion as he keeps claiming of us.. I know AB ignores what I comment on because as they say….when someone says how it is, the other remains silence.. and hence the case here.. AB has not answered any of my questions.. maybe because he does not know how to answer them.. maybe because he knows that he is just another “pretend” Armenian who seeks refuge under Turkish pretend state.. AB thinks Turkey will protect him if he continues to voice and protect its propaganda.. what a joke… what a mistake..
AB is not enough to get every cell in my body up and screaming, now this person Kurt joined the party… such luck… Kurt.. huge difference between Turks occupying lands vs any other country occupying lands… NO NATION EVER was as barbaric, heartless, ruthless, systematic as Turks against Armenians (other Christian people)…Turks carried out the FIRST .. I repeat THE FIRST GENOCIDE the world EVER saw.. the bloodiest slaughter the world EVER experienced… Turks are occupiers and will always be…
Hell will definintely break loose on those who denies this Genocide… sooner or later….
I speak out of anger.. I speak out of being fed up … I speak out being tired of the lies, denials, manipulations, white Genocide.. I am tired.. and disgusted by Turkey and its citizens who continue to cover up their dirty deeds.. Just tired and disgusted of people like AB, Kurt, Robert, Ahmet and their kind who stand here, in front of so many Armenians and lie through their teeth.. NO shame, NO humility, NO remorse, NO acknowledgement, NO recognition.. NO understanding.. This is sickening..simply disgusting…
Gayane
AB, you said because Armenia had been conquered 500 years ago, it has no right to claim it’s lands back after 500 years, right? I said that just because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people, it doesn’t have the right to claim all that is Armenian (resources, wealth, cultural artifacts) as it’s own. You defend Turkey’s right to our lands. I defend Armenian rights to claim back what belongs to Armenians. There is no twisting of words here. Just a very different viewpoint.
We agree that Turkey should admit it’s crimes, but then what? Will they let us preserve and restore our historical sites, will they let history books reflect the truth about the indigenous people of Asia Minor. Will they acknowledge Armenian contributions to the culture of Asia Minor? Will they open borders and stop interfering on behalf of Azerbaijan?
On ANOTHER SECTION OF THIS FORUM THERE ACTUALLY ARE A FEW TURKS PARTICIPATING IN RATHER HARSH DIALOGUE, RATHER CRUDE, AND EACH DEFENDING HIS/HER POSITION AS TO THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.DIFFERENCE BEING THAT HERE ALL SEEM TO PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE WHAT IS ALREADY WELL DOCUMETED BY…..DANISH, BRITISH,GERMAN,AMERICAN,RUSSIAN AND OTHER MISSIONARIES AND/OR DIPLOMATS SUCH AS CONSULS IN SAY KARS OR BITLIS ETC.,
THERE IS AMPLE EVDENCE THAT YET HAS TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY.YES EVEN FILM FOOTAGE,BADLY TAKEN BY NON-PROFEFESSIONALS AS ABOVE MENTIONED.
CORE OF THE ATTER IS THOSE SAME NON-ARMENIAN (IMMORALS) DO NOT COME FORTHE ASTHEY DID WITH THE CASE OF THE JEWS..
HAVE YOU ASKED YOURSELVES WHY/? WHY THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE ARMEIAN GENOCIDE AND THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST/SHOA?WHY?
PRAY UNDERSTAND THAT ALTHOUGH I RIGHT NOW WRITE IN THIS IDIOM-I CAN READ AND WRITE IN FIVE,SPEAK SEVEN..BUT ADMITTEDLY THIS LANGUAGE/IDIOM IS NOT ONLY THE COMMERCIAL ONE BIZNESS ONE WORLD OVER BUT ALSO FAST HAS BECOME THE DIPLOMATIC ONE AS WELL.
IT FOLLOWS THAT THE ANGLO(S) HAVE TRIUMPHED THIS WISE AND HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHETHER THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE-AFTER WAITING 95 YEARS- SHOULD BE IMPOSED ON THEIR ALLY GREAT TURKEY OR NOT?ONLY THEY DECIDE,SINCE THEY STILL ARE AT ODDS AT THE OTHER(S)notwithstanding cold war being over…
YES THEY ESTIMATE GREAT TURKEY IN THE AREA CAN BE THEIR GENDARME ,WHETHER OVER ARAB NATIONS AN/OR EVEN IRAN.ARMENIA? why that is a tiny little country,landlocked and not really important in any aspect to them anyhow…
Thence be comprehensive and TRY TO ACCEPT ABOVE FACTS, ADMIT THEM.UNTILL SUCH TIME AS GREAT TURKEY IS THEIR DETERRENT FORCE IN THE AREA, OUR JUST CAUSE WILL BE OVERLOOKED BY THEM.INDEED THEE IS THE OTHER MUCH MORE IMPORTANT FACTOR AS WELL TO BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.THAT OF SAFEGUARDING THE FUEL -PRODUCNG COUNTRES AND SAFE TRANSIT OF ,FLOW OF THE BLACK SUBSTANCE. FOR OVER A CENTURY THIS HAS BEEN THE OTHER FACTOR..
NOW THEN WHAT SOULD ARMENIANS RELY ON?just to make -already,sorry to say LATE documentaries?WHY OVER TEN YEASRSS AGO WITH FRIENDS THAT ARE STILL THERE WE DISCUSSED TO HAVE SOMEONE WRITE SCRIPT OF BOOK TITLED “M A M I G O N”,by Armenian American author Jack Hashian,which I can assure you would be much more impressive than those documentaries…IT WILL SURPASS “THE
SCHINDLER’S LISST”.JUST GET HOLD OF IT AND READ IT, THEN TELL ME IF IT IS NOT S..
BUT THEN ARMENIANS ARE ALWAYS TRYING TO DO THE “OTHER” WAY.do it like the ones that are currently in circulation-meaning day in day out films made w/rgd to Jewish olocaut their sfferings etc., with all respect to their sufferings.But DO THEY CARE A DAMN, IF THEIR BEST PRODUCRS DIRECTORS D NOT WISH TO MAKE ONE SCH ARMENIAN -GENOCIDE DEPICTING MOVIE…
THE WORLD IS TURNED VERY EGOISTIC THSE DAYS,ONE PERSON ,OR FOR THAT MATTER ONE NATION DOES NOT CARE WHAT THE OTHER ONE DOES.
MY FINAL SAY IS ,DO NOT RELY ON ANY OF THOSE DANISH,DUTCH,ANY ANY OTHER SUCH NATIONS BEING REALLY IN OUR FAVOUR,LET ALONE THE REAL MCCOYS, THE …YOU KNSW WOSE LANGUAGE NOW WE EMPLOY…IN COMMUNICATING WITH EA OTHER.
MY SUGGESTION ?RELY on getting the diasora-whch could certainly be a HUMAN RESOURCES WISE, AS WELL AS ECONOMIC SOURCES WISE A POWER TO BE COUNTED WITH IF ORGANIZED,RATHER RE-ORGANIZED…I AM SUPPOSED TO BE ONE OF THE FEW,THAT AVE BEING TRUMPETING THIS THEORY WITHOUT ANY AVAIL..
OUR STATUS QUO WILL CONTINUE AS IS…LIKE BEATING AROUND THE BUSH TRYING-LIKE…B ING OTHERS TO give us a hand …ENOUGH OF THAT.
“hasgcoghin barev TO THOSE WHO COMPREHEND REALITIES I SALUTE…
G.P.
To Gayane:
You are 100% right. Before coming to terms with the crime, Turkey needs to understand that it actually exists. You need to tell your story so people will doubt if what they know is true.
Despite some of Erdogan’s extremely odd public statements, this government is the only one which admitted that things are not okay. I found out about this today:
http://buacihepimizin.org//index.php?sayfa=2
I doubt if other governments would give permission to such meeting. I’m planning to attend it too and if it ends with no incidents, I’ll have a bit more faith in the possibility of a better future.
to Boyajian and CDEFG,
My statement are not based on Wikipedia, I am just using it to back up my ideas since on the net it is the most accessible search media.
And also the reason why I am using Wikipedia is because so many commentators on this site are using it as reference. Why nobody is objecting to Janine when she is basing her allegations on Wikipedia?
To recap what I have been stating:
1. After WW1, following the defeat of Germany, Germany and its allies remained obliged to sign recapitulation treaties among which Treaty of Sevres.
2. Those treaties imposed were so unjust that they were also named the “Diktat” by many.
3. In the case of the treaty of Sevres, it was pure dismantling of the Ottoman Empire giving control on Anatolia also to Italy, France, and to UK which had no original territory claim on Anatolia.
4. As early as 1920, France stated that they will not ratify the treaty of Sevres. In the conference of London held in autumn 1920, France asks for the revision of the treaty of Sevres. The same attitude was adopted by UK followed by all other allied forces with the exception of Greece. This treaty was not ratified in the parliaments of the signatory countries except the one of Greece.
5. A weakened Ottoman Empire had signed the treaty of Sevres. Immediately an independence movement started in Turkey led by Ataturk. In 1919 Ataturk started what is historically called “the Independence War of Turkey” (to name it “Turkish re-occupation of territories assigned to their inhabitants by the Treaty of Sevres” is just an interpretation).
6. France who had signed a peace treaty with Kemalist forces as early as 1920, supported the Kemalist armies by providing arms used in the East and West fronts.
7. On the east front, Armenian forces are defeated and the treaty of Alexandropol is signed with Armenia (not Russia) where Armenia is renouncing to the borders of treaty of Sevres.
8. The allied forces “to contain” the Kemalist forces propose to hold a conference in Lausanne which lasted months and ended with the signing treaty of Lausanne.
9. The treaty of Lausanne annulled and replaced the treaty of Sevres and the parliaments of the signatory countries all ratified this treaty. Obviously, Armenia who was not existing as country was not present at the signing.
10. As for the USA, not being part of Europe, it was only present as observer at the signing of Lausanne treaty. A side Treaty of Amity and Commerce between the new Turkey and the USA was also signed in Lausanne. This treaty is also called the “other” Lausanne Treaty.
The above 10 points are irrefutable historical facts which can be backed up by non-Turkish international sources. In case of need, I can provide you the sources.
To CDEFG,
You are right. I am sorry for having called you “historical distorter”. I should respect your opinion. As you said: Everyone is entitled to have his opinion, but that does not give me upper hand to stigmatize an opinion that differs from mine as distortion.
In the same manner, am I obliged to support the insults of some commentators (specially the one of the poet want to be), because my opinions differs? In each of my comments, I have defended what I thought to be right but did I attack anybody on personnel level?
Obviously (it is understandable), an Armenian origin source cannot be objective on the subject. I am as much suspicious and anxious about what Armenian historians say as you are about the Turkish historians say.
Regarding the sourcing of my allegations as I said in my earlier post, I am ready to provide you with non Turkish irrefutable sources.
Gayane — I could not believe what Erdogan said in that interview. It is the usual: “Nobody can decide anything for Turkey” living in delusion drivel. Even Christianne Amanpour looked embarrassed. Hitchens wrote an article recently calling Erdogan unbalanced. Obviously, the whole of historical and genocide scholarship doesn’t matter/ remains something to be ignorant of if you are the PM of Turkey. It is creepy. The same thoughts have been voiced here. “We’re all equals, we’re all conquerors, nobody has the right to dictate our borders.” blah blah blah “might makes right” No respect for truth or international law norms, etc.
Obviously (it is understandable), an Armenian origin source cannot be objective on the subject. I am as much suspicious and anxious about what Armenian historians say as you are about the Turkish historians say.
Why is this obvious? Taner Akcam has been objective on the genocide. A good historian is capable of being honest no matter where they are from. Of course, if the government threatens the historian so that he has no freedom that is a different story. “Truth” means different things in different parts of the world, especially where the government tries to dictate ignorance of history.
To Boyajian,
On your initial post you have stated:
“500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people”.
I objected to that stating that I never said that 500 years of domination was giving right to commit murder.
On your last post you are stating having said:
“… because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people…”
As far as I am concerned, those two posts do not have the same meaning. If it does, meaning that I have misunderstood your words, then I will gladly withdraw what I have posted with regards to twisting.
Regarding your last para, and your questions the reply is yes, they should do.
To MSHECI,
Many thanks for your one full page of comments summing up to what I said: for you Turkish=Bad. With two words you could have summarized your whole post.
Regarding your comments on Cyprus, I do not understand what you are telling. I think you are mixing things (as it is said in Turkish your head is like a watermelon). Cyprus remained under Ottoman ruling for 400 years, wheras Armenia remained under Ottoman ruling for 500 years. Where are you coming up with the number of 36 years. As I said Cyprus is a very complex issue which should be adressed in some other forums.
If Turkey is willing to help with that, we should show our appreciation, because they don’t have to do anything, except as a gesture of goodwill. There are no laws, no requirements so we must not only enourage it, but support it in any way we can. Plus, it benefits both peoples in many important ways.
Well, unfortunately there are UNESCO world heritage-declared sites that are still not being protected (and in Azerbaijian) and they do have the benefit of international law. Also, property of the Greek Patriarchate has been systematically destroyed by government bureaucracy by twisting Turkey’s own internal laws. So I don’t see the goodwill there for this.
And, did someone mention the Treaty of Lausanne???
The Turkish Government undertakes to grant full protection to the churches, synagogues, cemeteries, and other religious establishments…”
Treaty of Lausanne 1923
Article 42
Gayane —
You don’t have to exhaust yourself because of a bunch of denialist Turks posting here. They can make the veins in your temples swell and your blood group change. But guess what? Essentially, they’re not to blame for being ignorant because they believe anything they’ve heard during their lifetime and what they’ve been taught in schools. These individuals are unable to question the true side of the story or at least seek truth, because their nation has been raising brainwashed people since at least 1938 when the great falsification and distortionist Mustafa Kemal passed away leaving a completely surreal picture of Turkey for the next generations. What can you expect from such people? You can’t change them by just throwing facts at their face. It requires patience, time, and grand efforts. Hence, keep it cool, Gayane. If you believe in God, you should know that His supreme justice will prevail sooner or later. There’s no way for murderers to get away with their crime. Even if a court on Earth decides they’re not guilty, a court in Heaven has its own rules. One way or the other, during our lifetime or during the lifetime of our grandchildren, in one form or the other, Turkey WILL receive its punishment.
Comfort yourself with the fact that alongside people like AB, Kurt, Robert, or Ahmet, we also came across honorable and courageous Turks as SG, Istanbul, Burak Can and others. All is not lost if such people exist and if their remarks are sincere. And if all of us here could at least shake the denilaists’ dogmatic, distorted psyche and their vision of the subject, we can say we’ve done a little precious something for the souls of millions of massacred in cold blood innocent Armenian victims.
April 24 is approaching and I’d like to see no Turkish denialist posting on these pages on that day unless they find the courage and repent…
Karekin and David have made good observations. They both stress the importance of supporting the RA and trying to imagine a rapprochement with Turkey that is less about redrawing borders and more about helping Armenia reinforce its current strengths and improve its areas of weakness. Something for all of us to think about.
I think we are all proud of the great artistic and scientific minds that have come from Armenia. It’s wonderful to know that despite the hardships in Western and Eastern Armenia in the last century, Armenians can look beyond their obstacles, can still value education and contribute to the world.
However, it is three days away from the commemoration of the 95th anniversary of the Armenian genocide and my mind contemplates all the great minds, artists, scientists and leaders that were stolen from us. The thought that once again Turkey is allowed to skirt the truth and even scold those who accuse it of genocide makes me want to throw up. In his interview with CNN’s Christianne Amanpour, Erdogan makes the ridiculous statement that no nation has the right to accuse another of genocide. Why not? Who has the right? Just more bluster and distraction from the truth.
AB,
Let me clear. My arguments are based on my readings into mostly non-Armenian primary and secondary sources pertaining to the treaties signed in the 1920s. Again, I’m not an international lawyer, I don’t claim to be an expert. I just read materials on international law as it pertained to my interest in the history of nations inhabiting eastern Asia Minor.
From 1918 to 1923 five treaties determined the Armenian-Turkish border. The Treaty of Sevres was signed on August 10, 1920. It was followed by the Treaty of Alexandropol (December 3, 1920), the Treaty of Moscow (March 16, 1921), the Treaty of Kars (October 13, 1921), and finally, the Treaty of Lausanne (July 24, 1923).
It is a paramount principle of the international law that international agreements be signed by the subjects of international law, i.e. by a legitimate government through its delegate. From this universally-accepted stand, only the Treaty of Sevres and the Treaty of Lausanne are valid.
The Treaty of Alexandropol was concluded at the time when Kemalists stiull were rebels fighting the legitimate Ottoman government. They still had to come to power in Turkey, while the ruling Armenian party, the Dashnaktsutyun, had already lost the power at the time.
The Treaties of Moscow and Kars have no legal effect whatsoever since they were signed by Kemalist revolutionaries, although Sultan was formally the head of the state till 1923. By the way, it’s come to my attention that on May 11, 1920 the Turkish Tribunal demoted and sentenced to death General Mustafa Kemal. The Tribunal verdict was approved by the Sultan on May 24, 1920.
As to Bolshevik Russia, it hasn’t been recognized by the international community until February 1, 1924. Thus, its signature on any international agreement is not valid either. Although the Treaty of Sevres was not ratified, it remains valid as the only legal agreement which bears legitimate signatures of Armenian and Turkish delegates.
The most important point that overrules all these treaties is that the Armenian-Turkish border was determined by the Arbitration Award of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson. Armenia was among the winners of the World War I and it put its signature under the Treaty of Sevres. Great Britain, France, and Italy turned to President Wilson for Arbitration Award. According to the international law, arbitration awards cannot be appealed. Signed on November 22, 1920, it was conveyed to the Paris Conference on December 6, but unfortunately, the Republic of Armenia was already occupied by the Red Army on December 3. Subsequently, the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in July 24, 1923 with Armenia as non-signatory.
With disintegration of one of the signatories to the Lausanne Treaty, the Soviet Russia, and with proclaiming independence in 1991, the Republic of Armenia has become a subject of international law again. According to the Wilsonian Arbitration Award, Armenia is entitled to receive provinces of Bitlis, Van, Erzerum, and Trabzon, which ensured Armenia’s outlet to the sea.
Many thanks for your one full page of comments summing up to what I said: for you Turkish=Bad. With two words you could have summarized your whole post.
Regarding your comments on Cyprus, I do not understand what you are telling. I think you are mixing things (as it is said in Turkish your head is like a watermelon). Cyprus remained under Ottoman ruling for 400 years, wheras Armenia remained under Ottoman ruling for 500 years. Where are you coming up with the number of 36 years. As I said Cyprus is a very complex issue which should be adressed in some other forums.
Unbelievable. Are you studying, AB, to be part of the Turkish foreign service? Are you paid to be here? These issues are straightforward — Turkish occupation of Cyprus has been condemned by the UN, nobody recognizes the legitimacy of this. Your response here is totally nonsense, not to mention insulting to someone whose post made perfect sense and so did his explanation. So much for an honest discussion.
Boyajian says it well … we Armenians are faced with balancing between supporting the Republic of Armenia as it stands today, while at the same time not forgetting what started on April 24, 1915. How did you put it Boyajian … something like Turkey’s denialist tactics make you want to throw up. I could not agree with you more. What the government of Turkey is doing, is in my mind, nothing short of continuing the Genocide and that they get away with it … is absolutely DISGUSTING, an affront to all humanity.
To AB;
I’m free to post here as many words as I wish. This is not your prerogative to tell me how many words I should use to support the truism about Turks being brainwashed by their government. There are moderators here who are entitled to decide on the quantity of words in their discussion forum, OK? On a separate note, I never take interest in visiting Turkish discussion forums, but since many Turks, for some unknown reason, visit Armenian discussion forums, then you’d need to comply with rules and regulations set by the moderators, OK? In light of this, I comply with the fact that your preposterous saying addressed to me as having ‘a head like a watermelon’ was allowed by the mediators. And since it’s been allowed, I hope they’d also allow an Armenian saying in return about Turks like you being called as ‘yemish glukh.’ The saying intentionally uses a Turkish word in it, so I hope you’ll make it out… If you don’t, let me know.
I’m sorry for being compelled to repeat for the third time what I wrote on Cyprus.
You claimed: ‘Armenia was conquered 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it doesn’t give the right to Armenians to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.’
I asked: ‘If you think 500 years after the Turkish conquer of indigenous Armenian lands doesn’t give the right to Armenians to claim territories, does just 36 years after the Turkish conquer of Cyprus give the Greek Cypriots the right to claim their territory back?’
I’m disputing your controversial notion about the duration that a nation has been under foreign occupation. If 500 years under the Turkish yoke (which you sarcastically call ‘ruling’) is too long period for you, then what do you think about just 36 years that passed from 1974 when the Turkish military forces invaded and occupied a sovereign state, a subject of international law, and a the United Nations member-state Cyprus? (BTW, 2010 – 1974 = 36) Can Greek Cypriots claim their lands back or you think that someone has given the nomadic Turks, who appeared in Asia Minor out of nowhere, a right to invade, occupy (which you sarcastically call ‘ruling’), enslave, and then mass exterminate, scorch, deport, and destroy other, more ancient and more civilized, nations?!
Janine,
How can Taner Akcam be objective? Even the little kid on the street knows that he is on the payroll of the Armenian Diaspora. Even his books are sponsored by Armenian institutions.
Regarding the churches, cemeteries, etc… I have nothing to say. It is indeed true that proper protection was not granted.
But again make up your mind I thought the treaty of Lausanne had no validity since Armenia was not signatory.
Dear Armenian Brothers and Sisters!
April 24, the Day of International Remembrance of the Victims of the Armenian Genocide, is approaching. This day, and the horrifying years that followed, will always remain in the minds and the hearts of Armenians all over the world, as well as in the memory of hundreds of millions of concerned citizens of the world. The Armenian Genocide, a deliberate extermination of a race and a whole civilization, will never be forgotten and the pain and grief caused by the Ottoman Turks will never vanish.
Respect our victims: innocent men, women, the elders, children, and even unborns killed as their mothers’ wombs were ripped off by Turkish gendarmes, and light a candle here http://www.candle.direct.am/.
Pray Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to soothe their innocent souls…
Janine:
I am not saying that Western Macedonia is now supposed to be part of Turkey but was until 1922.
Bulgarians ceded to Greeks.
What I am saying is that many people live in eastern Macedoni ( we call western ) are Turks. They call themselves Turks but Greeks says NO..you are NOT Turks. Turks can not even use ”’Turk” name in any organization. It is forbidden by law. Greece is a EU member and europe does not do anything. Where is the human rights and democracy..
Turks live in Gumulcine, Kavala, Iskece, Dedeagac.. and many small villages…
SG to Gayane
Thanks for sharing the gathering request on the 24th.
To Boyajian,
On your initial post you have stated:
“500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people”.
I objected to that stating that I never said that 500 years of domination was giving right to commit murder.
On your last post you are stating having said:
“… because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people…”
As far as I am concerned, those two posts do not have the same meaning. If it does, meaning that I have misunderstood your words, then I will gladly withdraw what I have posted with regards to twisting.
Regarding your last para, and your questions the reply is yes, they should do.
SG: You are among those Turks that I consider heros. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your genuine support and acknowledgement. I hope that there are more Turks like you who against all odds find truth and conscious in themselves and free themselves from these shackles that they are in by their own country. You are truly a streak of light at the end of the tunnel among other Turks who share the same view as yourself. Thank you for sharing the commentary as well.. was this done on a Turkish website or in newspaper? Here is the copy if anyone is interested..
English
This is OUR pain. This is a mourning for ALL OF US.
In 1915, when we had a population of only 13 million people, there were 1,5 to 2 million Armenians living on this land. In Thrace, in the Aegean, in Adana, in Malatya, in Van, in Kars…In Samatya, in Şişli, in the Islands, in Galata…
They were the grocer in our neighbourhood, our tailor, our goldsmith, our carpenter, our shoemaker, our farmhand, our millwright, our classmate, our teacher, our officer, our private, our deputy, our historian, our composer…Our friend. Our next-door neighbours and our companion in bad times. In Thrace, in the Aegean, in Adana, in Malatya, in Van, in Kars…In Samatya, in Şişli, İn the Islands, in Galata…
On April 24th, 1915 they were “rounded up”. We lost them. They are not here anymore. A great majority of them do not exist anymore. Nor do their graveyards. There EXISTS the overwhelming “Great Pain” that was laid upon the qualms of our conscience by the “Great Catastrophe”. It’s getting deeper and deeper for the last 95 years.
We call upon all peoples of Turkey who share this heartfelt pain to commemorate and pay tribute to the victims of 1915. In black, in silence. With candles and flowers…
For this is OUR pain. This is a mourning for ALL OF US
April 24th, 2010
19.00
Taksim Square, Tram Stop
AB… i hope you would just shut up…… Iwonder how your ARmenian side of the family takes your crap and your views about the Genocide and Armenian.. I hope not favorably.. ……
Msheci jan.. you are absolutely correct.. bayts mart chi karoghanum el iran havaqats pahi.. yerp vor tesnuma sents debil martik sents nervers pchatsnum en… bayts I will do my best.. I will have faith… Thank God SG brings a balance a bit; otherwise I am hardly keeping my anger in tact… however, I told myself, no matter how much AB triggers anger in me and many others; I have Boyajian, Janine, Gary, CDEFG, and yourself to response and calm me down.. Thank you for that…
Janine jan… Erdogan is as confused as his boss and his county.. You are absolutely correct.. Even the interviewer was a bit shocked and wanted to interject when he was spitting nonsense about no nation has the right to tell what Turkey should do, but then she decided not to knowing that there is no point.. Erdogan sounds stupid by stating that and everyone knows it.. why ask and..what embarassment for Erdogan.. He is such a joke…
Gayane
To MSHECI,
I never insulted anybody on this site. To have a watermelon head means that everything is mixed in your head. If you take this as an insult there is nothing I can do.
Yes, the Greek Chipriot can claim back their land after 36 years of occupation, in the same manner, Turkey can claim back its land after 400 years of occupation.
There is no sarcasm in my voice when I use the term “ruling”. This is the technical term used by historians. There is again nothing I can o if you do not know this or you are susceptible.
Dear Peter..
Thank you so much for sharing the link. I lit a candle and send the link to everyone on my distribution list.. Armenian and Non ARmenian…
God Rest our ancestors souls…
Gayane
To Kurt…
I don’t see a problem with Greeks not allowing the Turks calling themselves Turks.. If you ask me.. they should be called Greek Turks… just like the Armenians can’t freely say they are Armenian in Turkey… I don’t know why are you sooo disturbed by that.. When your govt allows Armenians in Turkey to freely annouce themselves Armenians and have Armenian street names, organizations, associations without giving them grief, and problems, then expect other country to allow Turks to freely call themselves Turks.. I am surprised that Greeks allow Turks to live there to begin with…
Gayane
Correction to my last post to Kurt:
I meant to write ” ….then DON”T expect other country to allow Turks to freely call themselves Turks…””””””
Thank you
Gayane
Sorry Kurt but you yourself claim that the minorities in Turkey sided with other powers as if this is some sort of valid reason for what happened in cleansing and genocides. (First of all, it’s nonsense – you are talking about a handful of people maybe, but nowhere hear the whole population who weren’t even allowed to own weapons nor took them up – and second of all it would not be a justification anyway) So now let’s get this straight. There is an ethnic Turkish minority – in Thrace, not “Western Macedonia” – so that makes them automatically inalienably “righted” to secede to Turkey? Do you think there are Greeks there too? These people may be ethnic Turks but they are Greek citizens — and they don’t live there alone although they are a group. So, by your words you justify the secession of the Armenians and especially Kurds and all other minorities from Turkey now? Where is the talk of “nobody has the right to tell us our borders?”
Furthermore there is a huge difference between the way that Turks are treated in Greece and minorities are treated in Turkey. Where is the oppression and killing and halt to community activities and parties as happens in Turkey? It is well known that Turkey actively courts and influences this group – using their own means to control its politics, unfortunately for them. But that does not make the Greek government put them in jail, send them to camps, wage war on them or anything else. They have representatives in the Greek parliament who are free to vote all the time with Turkey or say that Turkey is always right no matter what, etc etc etc and nobody puts them in jail or stops them from speaking their own language or having schools or what have you. That is the big difference. And they are distinct minority groups — they are not the only people in Thrace anyway.
Turks can not even use ”’Turk” name in any organization. It is forbidden by law
Not true. Unless of course you are talking about organizations maybe that wish to overthrow the Greek government or something. All kinds of people in Greece are flooding its borders illegally and even THEY are free to march in the streets of Athens, make demonstrations, etc. along with every conceivable political party, even those admittedly who wish to overthrow the system. Greece is the most free country you can imagine, much freer in that sense than the US. What you have heard about these groups is nonsense. Don’t confuse Greek law regarding minority expressions with Turkish law. In fact, Turkish MPs from PASOK were elected because PASOK chose to bus Turkish people in to vote! The Greek political parties court candidates from this population to be in their parties.
Now what you are talking about is this — here we go back to the Lausanne treaty, actually — the government has traditionally identified the population by religion and not ethnicity. Everyone in Greece is Greek if they are a citizen, like AB might be Armenian but she is Turkish as a citizen of Turkey – a political, not ethnic designation. This was always — until very recently – a designation on ID cards. So even though people might be ethnic Turkish they are Muslim minority — this includes certain groups of ethnic Greeks and others too BTW.
AB – I’m not the one arguing about treaties, you are. And the Treaty of Lausanne which you say Turkey accepts has obviously not been upheld in Turkey in this respect.
One place
sorry my post was cut off
re names of organizations:
There is a minority rights group called “Turkish Minority Movement for Human and Minority Rights”
But there was a dispute with one group called “Turkish People of Xanthi” or something like that. This dispute was because it was an umbrella group of minorities which were not only Turkish but also Gypsy (Roma) and Pomaks (who are ethnically Greek but Muslim) so the name was misleading and also not representative of all the Muslim people it claimed to represent. But there are newspapers in Turkish, etc etc . Greece is a very free country, in some respects today many might say it is too free.
How can Taner Akcam be objective? Even the little kid on the street knows that he is on the payroll of the Armenian Diaspora. Even his books are sponsored by Armenian institutions.
Honestly this is so idiotic I can’t understand how anyone can say it. I say, as a Diasporan Armenian, that it is possible that some intellectuals and others in Turkey can really come out (and brave the law) and say the truth about the Genocide (including recently in a book published in Turkey which I referred you to about the trials). But this silliness tells me about your assumptions and how faulty they are. Akcam has teaches in Western universities – do you think he has not been checked out? Do you think the whole of the International Association of Genocide Scholars all around the world is in a payroll of the Diaspora to lie? This is a supreme delusion. Who is paying Pamuk? I’m beginning to think we are talking to more than one person posting under your name now.
Kurt, sorry, I think I misread what you said — you said
I am not saying that Western Macedonia is now supposed to be part of Turkey but was until 1922.
Pardon, I thought you were referring affirmatively to secession … please ignore my arguments against this idea. But please refer to my response to the issues of naming of Turkish organization, MPs etc
To have a watermelon head means that everything is mixed in your head
Actually this is a common expression in the region. It usually means (at least elsewhere) that someone is stupid, empty-headed. Sometimes people use “gourd” or “squash” also — means the same thing
Turkey can claim back its land after 400 years of occupation
Where has Turkey been occupied for 400 years (except of course in Turkey)?
Janine,
As always you are right…
having said that, did I say something about Armenian Scholars in general? or about Orhan Pamuk?
Janine,
Since when you became an expert on Turkish expresions?
Besides did Msheci hired you as a lawyer? He does not need you to defend himself.
AB,
Aren’t you bored with this cat and mouse game, yet. I am, but I will play one more time to be cordial…
You wrote:
“Armenia was conquered some 500 years ago by Ottoman Empire. 500 years after it does not give the right to Armenia to claim any territories stating that it belonged to its ancestors.”
I understand this to mean that you believe that after 500 years of Turkish domination Armenia no longer has the right to claim what belonged to its ancestors. Correct?
I wrote in my first post:
“500 years of domination by Turks does not permit them to unlawfully cleanse the land of its indigenous people and then claim our resources, wealth and cultural artifacts as their own.”
You objected saying:
“You are twisting what I am saying!Did I say that that 500 years of domination gives the right for comitting any crimes? On the contrary, you should treat nicely and honour your subjects.”
I said in my 2nd response:
“… just because Turkey dominated Armenian lands for 500 years and then cleansed the land of its indigenous people, it doesn’t have the right to claim all that is Armenian (resources, wealth, cultural artifacts) as it’s own. You defend Turkey’s right to our lands. I defend Armenian rights to claim back what belongs to Armenians.”
AB you are misreading the emphasis in my response, which is that I object to the notion that 500 years of domination followed by ethnic cleansing gives Turkey the right to claim our heritage and inheritance as its own. I am not saying that you said “500 years of domination gives Turkey the right to commit crimes.” We agree that no nation has that right. I am saying that Armenia has a right to claim its heritage. Regardless of years of domination or national borders.
So what now? What do you believe is Turkey’s obligation once it acknowledges its responsibility in the deportation and consequent loss of life of 1.5 million Armenian souls? I am not interested in a verbal “tit for tat” with anyone on this site. I want justice for my people who you claim to be your people as well. What do you want?
You say you have Armenian blood, but it appears quite diluted. Your loyalty goes almost exclusively to the Turkish nation. I can not understand your decision. You choose to remain defiant in the face of overwhelming evidence provided by eye-witnesses and validation of non-Armenian genocide scholars all around the world. Have you taken a look at the German documentary aired on April 9th? You may ignore it, but the world knows the truth and awaits Turkey’s response.
Face it. You are a lost Armenian. That’s 1.5 million plus 1.
To all in the group
Just a thank you note to all of you who take the time, have the patience, have the knowledge, the courtage to pursue TRUTH & JUSTICE! No matter what opposition!
My father used to say “Asdvadz amen martu sirdin ‘geure” (this I believe is a Turkish word) gou da” My grandparents were from Kayseri and very fluent in Turkish. Now I wish I had learned some more Turkish. I had learned our history as a child & teen but my interested peaked when I got a Turkish neighbour (next door to me) 3 yrs. ago. He has sold and moved on but we remained friends.
And we know JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL even if not in our own lifetime. My grandparents longed to see ‘azad angakh Hayastan’ yet never saw it. Now, we do have the ‘azad & angakh Hyasatan’ and we pray + do our oart for it’s health and wellbeing!
Saturday is only hours away! Keep up the ‘baykar’!
G
AB, you’re losing ground, I’m afraid.
If Greek Cypriots can claim their land back after 36 years of occupation, how can Turkey claim back any lands after 400-500 years of occupation when your empire was formed only in the late 14th century AD? Where were ‘your’ lands before that? I’ll tell you where: in the steppes of Central Asia where Seljuk/Mongol nomads have originated and from which they invaded Asia Minor, scotched civilizations of Assyrians, Greeks, Armenians, whose ethnogenesis go back several millennia, then Arabs, Kurds, Slavs and then occupied their lands. And you call this ‘ruling’ and not occupation? Don’t tell me what terminology the historians use. True scholars call things by their name, and any distinguished historian knows that empires are ruthless occupiers, empires are enslavers of indigenous peoples, not rulers. Also, but in the West we’re not accustomed to hear sayings that hint at or compare anyone’s head, whether mixed or in perfect uniform. So, at this stage you indeed don’t have to do anything, you already did… And I already responded…
You know what your problem is, AB? My apologies if this may look like I’m psychoanalyzing you. I’m not. I’m just trying to understand the motives behind such a fierce reaction to anything that you perceive as Turkophobic in your head. If it’s true that your ethnic background is half-Armenian half-Lebanese, then I’m afraid we’re dealing here with a psychological problem that’s best described in the following proverb: ‘Be more Catholic than the Pope,’ meaning one is excessively pious. Paraphrasing the proverb, which, obviously cannot be applied to you in religious terms, ‘You’re more Turkish than the Turk.’ You seem to adhere more stringently to defending any Turkish argument than the Turks themselves. Knowing your mixed background you think that by doing do you look more as ‘our guy’ for ethnic Turks. In reality, it looks comic.
Look deeper into your soul, appreciate you diverse ethnicity, be genuine not fake, and you’ll live a better, unfettered life, even in Turkey. You know, on April 24, 1915, one of the 200+ prominent Armenian intellectuals who were rounded up in Constantinople and then massacred, was Krikor Zohrab. Up until the last moment of his brief detention he believed that Turks wouldn’t kill him because he considered himself their brother throughout his life. But despite being so Turkophile, if I may say so, he, among all others, was beheaded…
I’ll save my words for you to understand what I mean…
My apologies to some who may not understand the Armenian language. I didn’t mean to be ignorant.
“Asvadz Amen Martu Sirdin geure gu da” may be translated “God will give (reward) each soul according to their heart”. We know God looks (searches) at our hearts, our inner beings. Humans cannot read others’ hearts. This all means each of us will be judged by how we live.
G
AB, here are the links for the German documentary if you are interested and can understand it. It is in ten 10 minutes segment:
1ère partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MtSaoEZLvQ
2ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fQYOB8XKtI
3ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv9ExBlYViw
4ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uve2Q_8fq0
5ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Is7PwSzDU
6ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_l2_iQqtw
7ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeTdzPziJhI
8ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAGPDgs5sgk
9ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmB9MXH2d4I
10ème partie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYcfqnJVQA
re “expressions”
AB – My remark was self-explanatory. This is not just a common expression in Turkey. It’s also a common expression in other countries in the region (in Greek, for example, and I have heard a version in Armenian as well) … in both of those cases it means “stupid” I’ve heard it using “pumpkin” as well as gourd, squash, etc. I hope everybody gets the (obvious) idea.
And you might love to censor but we’re free here. It’s a conversation among many isn’t it?
re: Akcam
What you said was that Akcam is on the payroll of the Diaspora so of course he can’t be objective. But that’s an insult to the whole Diaspora and also their organizations – it’s just like saying “Nobody who works in a Turkish university can be objective.” They can be, it’s just that there’s a law that criminalizes certain expressed opinions, as we all know. But Akcam was writing before he was published by diaspora organizations and if you think about it, it’s natural that they would want to help him be published — but after the fact. And as I said, he’s employed by American (and I think Canadian) universities where there are all kinds of people who are not Armenian in his field and in the field in general so he has to have some credibility with them. Besides, we know the opinions of the universal genocide scholarship. But what you said basically was that nothing the Diaspora publishes can be objective. Which sounds racist to me. This diaspora publication lets you publish your comments here.
AB – if you say you meant” mixed up,” I will accept that however, even though it is commonly understood differently elsewhere as I have said. But it’s probably better to just say “confused” or something
Hey AB..
I know you are reading everything posted here so read this..
I am getting really sick of your nonsense comments… You are trying to win this case but you are succeeding.. like i said in my previous posts.. stop digging your own grave by writing twisted and incorrect data about the history of my people, the Genocide and calling people empty headed and confused.
My dear Gary.. I will be among thousands who will be marching this saturday… Too bad coward Turkey withdrew its Ambassador.. but then again even if the Ambassador was in the office, he would never stayed at work on April 24th.. like a scary cat he always takes a day off.. spineless lizard…
Gayane
Hey AB and your kind,
Please read below.. make sure you read the bullet points very carefully and over and over and over again.. keep these points in mind because what you read here will be used again and again and again in countries who will be recognizing the Armenian Genocide and condemning Turkey over and over and over again…
Resolution declaring April 24, 2010 As Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day in San Francisco.
WHEREAS, The Armenian people, living in their 3,000 year historic homeland in eastern Asia Minor and throughout the Ottoman Empire, were subjected to severe persecution and brutal injustice by the government of the Ottoman Empire before and after the turn of the twentieth century, including widespread massacres, usurpation of land and property, and acts of wanton destruction during the period from 1894 to 1896, and again in 1909; and
WHEREAS, The horrible experience of the Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Turkish government culminated in 1915 in what is known by historians as the first genocide of the twentieth century; and
WHEREAS, The Armenian Genocide began with the arrest, exile, and murder of hundreds of Armenian intellectuals, and political, religious, and business leaders, starting on April 24, 1915; and
WHEREAS, The Ottoman authorities planned and executed the unspeakable atrocities committed against the Armenian people from 1915 through 1923, which included the torture, starvation, and murder of 1,500,000 Armenians, death marches into the Syrian desert, the forced exile of more than 500,000 innocent people, and the loss of the traditional Armenian homelands; and
WHEREAS, The United States National Archives and Record Administration and the official archives of other countries hold extensive and thorough documentation on the Armenian Genocide; and
WHEREAS, The Honorable Henry Morgenthau, United States Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1913 to 1916, organized and led protests by officials of many countries, among them the allies of the Ottoman Empire, against the Armenian Genocide; and
WHEREAS, Ambassador Morgenthau explicitly described to the United States Department of State the policy of the government of the Ottoman Empire as ‘a campaign of race extermination,’ and was instructed on July 16, 1915, by United States Secretary of State Robert Lansing that the ‘Department approves your procedure. . . to stop Armenian persecution’; and
WHEREAS, Leading news agencies of the time documented the atrocities being committed against the Armenians; and
WHEREAS, Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term ‘genocide’ in 1944, and who was the earliest proponent of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, invoked the Armenian case as a definitive example of genocide in the 20th century; and
WHEREAS, The International Association of Genocide Scholars has repeatedly affirmed that the massacres of Armenians ordered by the Young Turk government constitute genocide; and
WHEREAS, The Republic of Turkey unjustifiably and adamantly denies the occurrence of this crime against humanity while actively continuing to remove traces of Armenian existence, including the destruction of cultural heritage, to this day; and
WHEREAS, The Republic of Turkey suppresses freedom of speech on the matter of the Armenian Genocide and prosecutes its citizens under Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code for statements related to the Armenian Genocide, including Nobel Laureate Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink, an Armenian newspaper editor, who was assassinated as a result of these prosecutions; and
WHEREAS, The passage of nine decades and the fact that few survivors remain who serve as reminders of indescribable brutality and torment, compel a sense of urgency in efforts to solidify recognition, reaffirmation and justice of historical truth; and
WHEREAS, By honoring the survivors and consistently remembering and condemning the atrocities committed against the Armenian people as well as the persecution of the Assyrian and Greek populations of the Ottoman Empire, we guard against repetition of the crime of genocide; and
WHEREAS, California has become home to the largest and most active population of Armenians in the United States, and those citizens have enriched our state through leadership in the fields of academia, medicine, business, agriculture, government, and the arts and are proud and patriotic practitioners of American citizenship; and
WHEREAS, San Francisco Armenian-Americans are predominantly descendants of the few remaining refugees, who witnessed and survived the brutal murder of their families and the destruction of their homes and institutions, and confiscation of all their properties, and
WHEREAS, Those Armenian Genocide survivors who arrived in San Francisco and reestablished themselves, built a thriving community that has created churches, civic and charitable organizations, and a school, and have become an integral part of the dynamic culture of San Francisco, and
WHEREAS, San Francisco is proud to join the Armenian-American community in its commemoration of the 95th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide in an effort to educate others about the tragic loss of life, land, and human rights of the Armenian people and the crime of genocide committed against them; now, therefore, be it
RESOLVED, that the San Francisco Board of Supervisors does hereby declare April 24, 2010 as Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day in the City and County of San Francisco; and, be it,
FURTHER RESOLVED, that the San Francisco Board of Supervisors will send a letter to San Francisco’s elected representatives in the House of Representatives and Senate urging the United States Congress and President Barack H. Obama to give just recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
I would like to point out a correction I need to make to my previous comment to AB..
I meant to write ” You are trying to win this case but you are NOT succeeding”””
Thank you
Gayane
To Boyajian,
I will look at the links you have provided. Many thanks.
To most of the commentators,
I realize that it is pointless for me to share my views with you. Everything is either black or white. There is no consideration for something in between.
Therefore this will be my last post.
I wish you all good luck in your endeavors.
Interesting news today:
Bravo! to Armenian President Serge Sarkissian for resisting pressure and halting the signing of the Protocols with Turkey due to Turkey’s insistence on preconditions being met. This was a very difficult decision, but I believe the right one.
Bravo also to the Human Rights Association of Istanbul for holding an Armenian Genocide Commemoration this Saturday April24,2010 at Haydarpasha Station in Istanbul at 13:30 hour. This act of solidarity with the 1.5 million lost Armenians at the very site from which the original 220 martyrs were deported to the Interior is a powerful statement. We will be with them in spirit.
Boyajian — Sadly the conference has been canceled according to the news report here in Armenian Weekly.
Protocols over, conference canceled … AB says he/she is finished. Wonder if there is a correlation. It’s all very sad, especially about the conference. It was hope that maybe progress in dialogue was actually happening.
I also liked our dialogue here.
PS Actually, I think a dialogue about common expressions in the region(across languages) might be interesting and fun :-)
You know what? I’ve been thinking…
I am tiring of bickering with the melonheads (which I am glad to learn is not an insult, but merely an expression that means mixed up).
Bluster, distraction, parsing of words, denial, and twisted logic, sometimes blatant, sometimes subtle, makes it very difficult to engage in cogent discourse that leads to a healing dialogue. I am very disappointed because I had hoped for more. I am grateful though, that along the way I was treated to truly edifying comments regarding international law and the interpretation of treaties. Thanks to those who take the time to do this.
But truly, we need to stop falling victim to those who engage us in specious arguments and distract us from our focus: Remember the martyrs. Fight for Justice. Attend a Commemoration. Support Human Rights and Genocide Watch groups. Communicate with Legislators. Go grocery shopping. Visit our mothers. Take a shower. Say a prayer…
Now do we really have time for the melonheads?
I’d like to thank all Armenian commentators, as well as those brave Turkish commentators who stepped in into this discussion, sharing opinions with us that differ fundamentally from Turkish official propaganda clichés.
There are already new developments on the ground and they give me, more than ever, a hope that crimes against humanity will ultimately be condemned by the mankind and historical justice for the Armenian people will prevail.
May God be with us!
Despite my previous comment (which I admit was sarcastic) regarding tiring of bickering, I am sad to read that AB has decided to stop commenting.
AB often expressed the objection that commentators in this forum were being too black and white and unwilling to see things from another perspective. But I was never clear what that other perspective was. Was it ever presented? Did I miss it because I was too thick-headed? We never heard what AB thought was a just resolution to the Turkey-Armenia issue from the point of view of an Armenian living in Turkey, loyal to the nation of Turkey and acknowledging that crimes had been committed against Armenians. A missed opportunity for an important dialogue.
Janine–a small clarification:
The conference in Ankara was cancelled not the Genocide commemoration in Istanbul. Very sad about the conference, but expected given the current political climate.
Boyajian wrote:
The conference in Ankara was cancelled not the Genocide commemoration in Istanbul. Very sad about the conference, but expected given the current political climate.
Oh!! Interesting!! Thanks, Boyajian. Better keep those people in our prayers!!!
Msheci wrote:
There are already new developments on the ground and they give me, more than ever, a hope that crimes against humanity will ultimately be condemned by the mankind and historical justice for the Armenian people will prevail
I hope that you will expand on this. I would like to hear your viewpoint of optimism in the situation.
Boyajian said:
We never heard what AB thought was a just resolution to the Turkey-Armenia issue from the point of view of an Armenian living in Turkey, loyal to the nation of Turkey and acknowledging that crimes had been committed against Armenians. A missed opportunity for an important dialogue.
As I think AB might still be reading, I want to make it clear that I say the following, expecting that AB will also read it. I was curious about (her? I think she indicated she was a woman? Someone please correct me if I am wrong). I felt she may be a young person. Although I thought perhaps her optimism was not going to be rewarded, it seemed like the optimism of the young. I don’t like to see that crushed or dashed. But she is a smart person, even if we disagree — and we remember she has been raised in a particular atmosphere designed for all to think alike on these subjects. So, I wish her well and I hope she will put her intelligence to the test of wisdom over time, and be safe! Read more, AB, including the latest book on the trials that has now been published in Turkey — in its third printing — co-authored by Dadrian and Akcam.
To paraphrase Boyajian, “May God bless us all!” The original April 24th was shortly after Easter, and today we are still in the Easter season. Our strength has always been our hope and faith in the Resurrection. This I believe.
PS Boyajian et al:
Does anybody know about the lawsuit filed in Turkey challenging 301 and its application? I think it was filed by a Human Rights group???
Boyajian –
I don;t think anyone of us has seen a different perspective from AB and commentators like him. Their comments, in most part, were just fierce opposition to and deliberate distortion of anything that Armenians or sober-minded Turks had to say. Opposition just for the sake of opposition. Nothing constructive.
Having said that, I’m sorry, too, that he left the discussion. Indeed, I am. I’d love to engage in exchange of opinions with as many Turks as possible to get our message through, to make them think for a split second if there could be anything rational in Armenian thinking.
Time moves on and we now have a new reality with Sarkissian’s speech, annulment of the genocide conference in Turkey, meeting at the train station in Istnabul, and, who knows, maybe something we’ve been waiting for almost a century that could happen in Washington in 2 days?
Ooops!! I mixed up Msheci with Boyajian! Sorry!
Msechi wrote:
May God be with us!
Indeed!
I have to agree with CDEFG… AB voiced his or her opinion loud and clear.. very opposing to what you intelligent individuals shared with all of us.. If AB was that confident in himself or herself, he or she would have not stopped conversing no matter how annoying and frustrating he or she was making me… Just because we did not agree with AB did not have to stop.. why stop now? I don’t think he or she is that shy or scared to continue.. so why stop??… It is too bad… but what I am very happy about is that he or she heard what we had to say.. he or she heard the truth that the world knows… he or she received history lessons from those of you who used prominent and legitimate and historical sources… at least we subjected AB to another side of the coin….
I would like to share with you something positive… Roar USA, a company who dedicated 8 or so billboards around the LA are to raise awareness about the Genocide is much to be thankful for.. Below is the e-mail I receive from the individual who iniated the project (he replied to me because i sent an e-mail to thank the company for the doing this great deed not only for Armenians but for everyone living here and around the world)…
The locations of the billboards are as follows:
-La Cienega S/O Whitworth
-Western & Lexington
-Westwood & Santa Monica
-Topanga Canyon & Schoolcraft
-Rosco & Reseda
-Santa Monica W/O Western
-Sepulveda S/O Lucerne
Good Morning Gayane,
Thanks for acknowledging Mr. Vasandani’s generous gesture. I am one of the individuals who helped with the billboards. My grandparents themselves were survivors of the Genocide. Just to give you a little background, the way this project started was over dinner with Mr. Vasandani last July. One of the many topics we were discussing that night was the issue of the Genocide and Turkey’s denial of it, at one point I started telling my maternal grandfather’s experience during the atrocities, at the time Mr. Vasandani expressed interest in dedicating his billboards to raise awareness about the Genocide, I suggested to do it during the month of April. In keeping with his long tradition of following through, in early April Mr. Vasandani reminded me that it was time and we started the work with the help of few very dedicated friends in creating the artwork for the billboards.
Thanks,
Rafi Ekmekian
All,
Please see below comments from Gayane. The comments are incredible.. I am speechless. Such a hatred.. Jesus Christ…. God Be with you, bless you Gayene!!!!! There is nothing anyone can say to what you are writing..
I am sorry for you…
I guess it was justified by you that so many Turkish Ambassadors were murdered by ASALA Terror group just because ASALA is Armenian!!!!
Portraying any Turkish man/ ambassador as spineless lizardand names just shows your so called justified hatred..
Quote””””””
gayane
April 22, 2010 | Permalink | Reply
Hey AB..
I know you are reading everything posted here so read this..
I am getting really sick of your nonsense comments… You are trying to win this case but you are succeeding.. like i said in my previous posts.. stop digging your own grave by writing twisted and incorrect data about the history of my people, the Genocide and calling people empty headed and confused.
My dear Gary.. I will be among thousands who will be marching this saturday… Too bad coward Turkey withdrew its Ambassador.. but then again even if the Ambassador was in the office, he would never stayed at work on April 24th.. like a scary cat he always takes a day off.. spineless lizard…
Gayane
Unquote””””””’
Kurt – Several commentators here, including Gayane, were frustrated by AB’s insult addressed to me as the one whose ‘head is like watermelon,’ i.e. ‘stupid’ or ‘empty-headed.’ Thus her emotional response to AB, I believe.
As for ASALA, no terror is justified, but you (deliberately?) miss the cause-consequence connection here. ASALA’s actions in 1970s-1980s, however unjustifiable they were, were the consequence of wiping out millions of Armenians back in 1915-1921. Their actions wouldn’t happen had the deliberate and systematic extermination of Armenians by Turks in the most barbaric form not happened decades before.
Look into causes before talking about the consequences…
Mister Kurt,
Calm down please.. and stop your hysteria…. and you don’t have to point out everyone to read my comments.. everyone read it already.. Thank you..
What I said, I stand by it.. and let me explain to you the difference between hatred and fed up… if you dont’ know the distinction…
I want to point out that Hate is not necessarily a bad word. If you love what’s right you’re going to hate what’s wrong. If you love health you will hate sickness. If you love flowers you will hate weeds. What is wrong is to hate PEOPLE… in my case, I never said I HATED TURKS/THE AMBASSADOR.. what I hate is the WRONG the Turks denialists are carrying out and that includes your Ambassador …. please read this very carefully… in my opinion, those who hide behind their closed doors and deny justice, truth, impose gag rules by force but never show the courage and the balls to stand up for what is RIGHT and face the music against all odds ARE AND WILL BE spineless lizards.. get it?.. this does not mean in any shape or form that I hate them….But what I can tell you is that I have fed up with all the nonsense, lies, and denials your country spits upon the world and I am fed up with people like you and AB who support the WRONG, the UGLY and the LIES… again, this does not mean I hate YOU… I hate THE ACT… I hope that clarifies the confusion..
and you calling me a hater without any valid and solid reason is an insult to me.. which tells me how much class you have.. however, as my God’s child, I will not take that as an insult and will forgive your inappropriate gesture.
let it be known that the word hate has been around for thousands of years. Jesus said in Matthew 5:44 “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”
In my opinion, if you have real love for anything or anybody you will also have real hate for whatever harms that which you love. Does this make sense to you Kurt? and don’t worry.. My Lord Saviour already accepted me as his child because he knows i am on the RIGHT SIDE.
Have a good afternoon sir..
Gayane
To: Gayane Jan
Thank you for sharing about the billboards. Thank Rafi & Mr. Vasandani for their contribution. My heart and mind will be with you and the many others on Saturday. You will ofcourse write about the response from your local public.
I will read it with huge ineterest! I have very close friends living in your city. :)
Do you listen to Internet radio http://www.voiceofvan.net ? It is just beautiful music
+ alot of other programs. Another one is http://www.nareg.fm
G
G
To Gayane, Janine, Manoushag & others
I have been meaning to tell you…if your mamas are alive please thank them for me for raising the brave women you have become! I would like my 2 daughters to learn from you! Maybe? Someday?
G
Kurt, please don’t think I am making fun of you … I am not.
But we in the West call our own politicians far worse things than “spineless lizard.” And I guarantee you that Sarkissian has been called far worse things by Armenians LOL
Gayane, great to know about the billboards. What a cool idea.
CDEFG – we can hope. Maybe Sarkissian is a good chess player. But we never know with this administration. So many of us supported them. I supported Obama very much. Obama knows the truth and made a promise and so does Hillary. Is “spineless lizard” strong enough for the failure to take the stand they promised? I really don’t know but I’m pretty disgusted with how dumb the whole thing is. I think the most dumb is the way the Turkish government will not put this issue behind it but rather keeps it alive. But I’m not a politician.
Mersi Gary jan… Very sweet of you to say that.. I will tell me mother.. She is a 59 years old Armenian women with very Armenian traditional ways.. she hurts for our country and people and wants so much for her two children to continue the ARmenian heritage.. even though my brother is with a Bulgarian girl (a gorgeous one if I may say so myself.:) … whose ancestors were also massacred by the Turks, she is very much like an Armenian.. in addition, she respects and follows the Armenian traditions.. She is a great girl but knowing my lovely darling mother, she is still uneasy about the interrational possibly marriage..:) she will get used to it.. hence why she wants an Armenian son in law very badly..:) i love her to death and because of her and my entire family, I have such strong connection with my culture, heritage and will fight against all odds to bring justice to our people… you can count on me for that Gary…
and Gary jan.. your daughters will grow up with a strong connection and love to their roots because they have you as their father.. It will be you who will teach them and carry them to be what they are… proud Armenians..:)
Janine jan.. Obama is worst than a spineless lizard… I have lost respect for him and until he remedy the matter with a strong and positive come back, i will continue to think of him as spineless human being… i hope Obama does not get offended because I called him spineless human being.. and I hope Kurt does not think I hate him because I called him that……
By the way,
KCET AIRS ‘ARMENIAN EXILE’ AND ‘MY SON SHALL BE ARMENIAN’ AS PART OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE MEMORIAL DAY ON APRIL 24
Los Angeles, CA – March 30, 2010 – KCET, public media for Southern and Central California, presents a special live night of programming featuring back-to-back documentaries by filmmaker Hagop Goudsouzian in observance of Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day on Saturday, April 24. Goudsouzian, a Canadian filmmaker, and Larry Zarian, Vice Chair of the California State Transportation Commission and former mayor of Glendale, host the evening, which begins with Armenian Exile at 7:00 p.m., followed by My Son Shall Be Armenian at 8:30 p.m.
In Armenian Exile, Goudsouzian paints a self-portrait in which he pursues a greater understanding of his cultural roots.
In 1988, Nagorno-Karabakh’s war for independence was in the headlines worldwide. Halfway across the world in Canada, Goudsouzian’s peaceful world was suddenly shaken: “I had forgotten I was Armenian, until I saw the courage of these people who had never forgotten who they were and knew what they had to do.”
Then, again in 1991, the independence of Armenia triggered a new beginning for Goudsouzian. At this point, he embarked on what he considers his most important adventure – to touch this mythical land in search of his roots.
In Armenian Exile, Goudsouzian travels to Armenia for the first time, in search of the ultimate connection with his forgotten and sometimes ignored identity. Seeking clarity of both history and self, Goudsouzian’s reflection on Armenian identity is also at the heart of his next installment, My Son Shall Be Armenian.
My Son Shall Be Armenian follows Goudsouzian and five Montreal men and women of Armenian descent to Armenia in search of survivors of the 1915 Armenian Genocide. Through interviews with elders and the touching accounts of his fellow travelers, Goudsouzian crafts a dignified and poignant film on the need to make peace with the past in order to turn toward the future. This documentary is broadcast in French with English subtitles.
Encore broadcasts of Armenian Exile and My Son Shall Be Armenian will air on Sunday, April 25 at 1:00 p.m. and 2:00 p.m., respectively.
Gary jan.. thanks to you, I have already watched My Son Shall be Armenian…:)
Gayane
Gary jan.. Thank you so much for the radio sites..
I love Nareg.com.. I am going to share these two links with everyone…
Gayane
Gary M – thank you.
Last night at one of the genocide commemoration events they did something unique. There were readings (mostly in English) of the works of some of the writers who were rounded up on the night of April 24th. Most of them were killed, a few managed to survive, and not all of those were able to retain their sanity from what they had seen and experienced. The works were mostly from before the genocide – but even those were sad, telling of the harsh lives people led, the poverty, destitution and even despair for a better life, and in the years before the genocide the things that would happen like the kidnapping and forced conversion of girls, the murders … as an American it reminded me of the lynchings of the south but with a very particular element of the region in the crimes. But one reading was the words of an eye witness, a missionary whose story was told by the writer, who saw horrific things in the genocide. I cannot forget what I heard about what was done to a group of girls, the absolute racist impulse to degrade. And, of course, we all know the stories we have heard from our community, relatives, grandparents.
We have the truth … bless you and your daughters! :-)
There’s a saying from the feminist movement we could adapt: “Armenian sisterhood is powerful” :-)
Tomorrow is April 24 and we will all, once again, reflect on the worst humanitarian tragedy of the 20th century, with sadness and nostalgia. I say ‘worst’ because the genocide took place on ancient Armenian soil, not foreign soil, where Armenians had lived for thousands of years. That said, I suspect that 95 years after the fact, today’s Turkish politicians are honestly embarrassed by the genocide, and would truly like to see this issue fade away, as it reflects badly on their nation, even if it was committed by a gang of thugs who were only marginally Turkish. As we can see, the answer really lies within Turkey itself. Removing the restrictions of 301, opening up internal dialogue and encouraging freedom of thought and speech on this issue are all part of the process, but only when Turkey can admit to all its people that this blemish took place and it now apologizes to the descendants of its former citizens, will it actually become an historical event that can be commemorated by both peoples for the massive tragedy it really was. Armenians lost big, but so did Turkey. If nothing else, Armenians have every right to remind Turkey and the world of their pain, each and every year until eternity. It doesn’t mean we can’t be friends, but true friends remember each other’s pain with honesty and sincerity. That’s what we all need.
Karekin, thanks for your comment, but I need to ask you about one thing you wrote:
even if it was committed by a gang of thugs who were only marginally Turkish.
Could you please explain this? I don’t really understand… I have heard some things but it’s not clear to me what it is about.
Wow, Karekin, what a striking metamorphosis in your views as compared to some preposterous ones in the past, especially the one that derogated Christ.
I’m impressed, truly, by the one above. Still slightly puzzled, though, in which of your comments you were sincere…
To: Dear Gayane
Thanks for the kind words. Also for informing the forum about Hagop Goudsouzian’s films. I found out only yesterday about Armenian Exile.
I am a few years older than your mom. Got married late. My daughters are similar ages to you and your brother? :) I married a Mennonite girl from Manitoba. Mennonites were persecuted for being Christ followers, out of Europe, to New Russia (Ukraine) and then many slaughtered remnants came mostly to Canada. We have been seperated since July 1998. Pressures of life in general.
Never in my wildest dreams did I think my wife would hold onto the bitterness and refuse to return to our marriage. My daughters are wounded without any of it being their fault. So I do my best to teach them what is right! My Ankine Malkhassian is on Face Book! My sister’s name is also Ankine.
My thoughts will be with all of you over there tomorrow. May God give you strength.
G
To Dear Janine
Thanks for the kind words. If you haven’t already, please read “The Burning Tigris” & “Armenian Golgotha”, “A Shameful Act”, “Passage To Ararat”.
If you are (or even if not) in the Protest Gatherings tomorrow…my thoughts will be with you. May God give you strength. I already know full well, about how fearless you are!
G
My comments here are always sincere, from the heart, but also based on knowledge, facts and research. The members of the CUP who masterminded the genocide were, like Armenians, Ottoman citizens, but they were not ethnically Turkish. I would encourage you to do some research on your own to learn more about this aspect of the genocide, because I think it helps to explain today’s dilemma in no small part. It should also allow today’s Turkish government to distance themselves from the entire event, but obviously that has not happened yet because those who attained power as a result of the genocide are still around and very entrenched. Though, in due time, I trust and hope this will change – for everyone involved…both Turks and Armenians.
Concerning Karekin’s remarks about the need for modern Turks to come to terms with their past, beautifully said.
I often think that the recognition of the Genocide is the Armenian’s cross to bear. Painstakingly for years and years now, we Armenians have to pursue this issue, often times against nearly insurmountable odds. Nevertheless we continue, if for no other reason than because it is what’s right to do, not just for us, but for the world, and perhaps most importantly, for the Turks.
I think it was Taner Akcam who talks about rescuing the Turkish soul. One can only imagine the terrible burden on Turks to deal with their past without the assistance of Truth. We Armenians most definitely have a burden that keeps on us like a dog on a bone. But I gladly accept this burden compared to that of the Turks. In this sense we must press on as Christ teaches us, to love our enemies, not by denying the truth, but by helping others, e.g. the Turks, to embrace it.
Karekin says it well, “It doesn’t mean we can’t be friends, but true friends remember each other’s pain with honesty and sincerity. “
Gary M – may God be with you and your daughters and give good guidance for you and them as they grow. I’m really sorry about the loss of their mother, but you sound like a very loving father and I think love is what counts with children. The rest is secondary.
Karekin – I don’t really understand who was not a Turk. So I would like to hear more about this. But anyway, another thought strikes me: the gendarmes and all the people who carried out the brutal massacres, village by village, person by person, even against the small children, mothers, old people, boys and girls, etc etc — the ones who slaughtered the young men conscripted into battalions — were they all not Turkish too?
Last night when I heard the writing that took place in the early years of the 20th century, before the genocide, I was so struck by the hardship and difficulties and random violence and murder they depicted of Armenian citizens living in the Ottoman Empire, and writing of the period after 1908 but before the genocide, etc when there were even MPs of Armenian descent … it was so oppressive, so sad. It all reminded me of the KKK on a grand, national scale, as if they had taken over the whole country. All of it is so racist in ways nobody here in the West can imagine if they knew all the horror
I have heard, also, a statistic about the kidnapping of Armenian girls, and those lost during the genocide. The estimate was that today 1 in 5 Turks may be “biologically” part Armenian because the incidence of this was so high. If so, what does that say about this racism? Those who try to be more “pure” and damn the minority? It is a lot of maturing to go from that place to one that accepts humanity in its fullness.
Haven’t we learned from history? “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” The Germans had to come to grips, although they all knew, that it took pressure from outside forces to finally make then face up to the holocaust. The Germans are today held up to the world for becoming one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the world.
The Turks know. Until they realize that the world has an eschewed vision of their world, they’re not going to fessup. I say keep up the pressure and maybe someday the United States will retake its rightful place as the torch bearer of freedom and democracy in the world.
Kurt,
If you think Gayane’s words ‘scary cat’ or ‘spineless lizard’ are derogatory, then you’d rather take a look at something I came accross while reading this discussion.
Author: your fellow Turk AB —
“GAYANE, I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE BLIND OR STUPID…”
Gayane’s words simply pale before such explicit indecency.
Karekin –
You wrote: ‘My comments here are always sincere, from the heart, but also based on knowledge, facts and research.’
I’d like to believe you. I truly do, but I can’t. So you all your previous comments were always sincere, from the heart, and so on? Well, then let me bring them up to refresh your memory. I quote only some of them:
1. [Jesus Christ is] ‘some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks’ (You never apologized for derogating the feelings of Christian believers, BTW)
‘Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey and are probably thankful they’re not there now. Perhaps they should thank Talaat Pasha for that’
‘Demanding recognition [of genocide] is not helpful or productive’
[It is a stuff of fantasy] ‘that eastern Anatolia should be returned to Armenians’
‘Christianity is not an Armenian religion… Christianity too, is an ‘alien’, non-Armenian religion’
[Regarding the genocide], ‘the problem is always that there are many truths… Every human being makes mistakes, large or small’
‘Turkey wasn’t some backward colony, it was one of the world’s most important and sophisticated empires for hundreds of years’
‘From the first arrival of Turks in the 11th C until 1915, Armenians did quite well… Under Turkish rule… Armenians did very well for a very long period of time’
‘Armenians are the original children of Anatolia. Armenians need to stop this ‘us and them’ mentality….because we are all of the same land’
10. ‘[Armenians], stop insulting a language that your ancestors spoke for probably 900 years or more’
11. ‘Young Turks were [not] the only ones to ever genocide Armenians in the course of history’
Thank you Anahit jan…
Kurt was screaming bloody murder because I called their Ambassador a spineless lizard….i thought he was going to call the gendarms, soliders and sultan to arrest and put me in a dungeon because I offended him … Seriously.. what a joke….
He also did not see the insulting word that AB called Msheci… I was absolutely pissed by that comment…. however, like I said before, Kurt and his kind are confused…He uttered our Jesus Christ’s name in his comment to somehow cleanse my soul and bless me..however, it is him who needs cleansing and needs to be forgiven.. I have forgiven him because it is not his fault…Hope Jesus Christ will bless his confused soul….
Mersi norits Ahanit jan…..
Gary jan… your daughters are lucky to have you as their father.. Children are led by example.. and you as a father is an absolute great example of faith, righteousness, truth and of course Armenian… They can’t be anything but true Armenians.. You deserve the best Gary jan.. and thank you for always providing positive support… :) I will try to locate your daughter on the facebook..:)
Janine jan… as I commented in one of my previous posts, the fact that our beautiful women were snatched either by force or barter or free by the Turkish wealthy or soldiers, just breaks my heart… because of this, Turks look much like Armenians and 1 out of 5 Turks probably do have Armenian gene…
Karekin is still an enigma to me.. I am sorry.. regardless his comment that had a COMPLETE different twist to it, more positive than any of his older comments, I still do not believe he is a true 100%…Sorry….
I will march for those who is not in LA, or can’t make it..
God Bless our people and country….
Gayane
Gayane
Darwin jan…I agree with you …. we should never relax on this matter until we get what we are after… The world pressure should continue …
Gayane
Gayane – when you said this
i thought he was going to call the gendarms, soliders and sultan to arrest and put me in a dungeon because I offended him
I started laughing out loud. Only we could have the sense of humor we have from this event .. Ever notice how Armenians always have to laugh and joke when we are together? Thank you for reminding me and making us laugh :-)
To: Gayane, Janine, Karo & other ‘katch’ ones! More children should be named Arudz!
Yes, I will follow the Protests on Horzon TV. I wish my daughters and I could be in LA too.
I would rejoice if my daughter (Larissa is not on Face Book) will become friends with one or more of you ladies. She is very much Armenian and don’t even know it. In fact she has mostly Armenian features and reminds me of my grandma. I sometimes mention visiting Armenia…but I am not sure it possible for us?
My father had a younger sister who drowned in the family fountain (garden) when she was 3 or 4. So when my sister came along the family named her after the tragically lost Ankineee (sorry I don’t how to put the accent on the e here). I only have a sister. Then in 1983 my wife wanted to name our daughter Ankine after my sister. It was a done deal!
There you got some more history. I have now cried many many tears over the beautiful girls and women we have lost in the last 200 yrs. It is more than tragic and unfair. In the book “Armenian Golgotha” where Vartabed Balakian was hiding as German soldier in the Armenian hospital, run by an Armenian doctor, there was a Turkish soldier who had lost his leg(s) and was being attended to by Armenian nurse(s). He thought God had taken his legs away for having violated many Armenian women and virgins. Ironic! Aren’t you all glad that The Ancient of Days is still on HIS throne?
Yes, many ‘Turkish’ actors/actresses/singers are very much Armenian looking!
Have a Great Martyrs’ Day! I will pray that after this one we will finally see/hear major changes in the hearts and minds of people of the world!
G
G
Janine jan..
I seriously thought something so horrible was said that he got soooooooooo worked up.. from his reaction and from ” I am speechless”.. I feel sorry for you…such hatred… i thought Hell broke loose… I thought what in the WORLD did i Say to cause Kurt to go get soooooooooo up and puffing and huffing…..I laughed myself when I started to read the rest of his comments…
I agree with you Janine.. being together, finding peace in knowing you have a sister or a brother who shares the same passion and love for our country truly makes life easier and at the same time allows us to share jokes and get a laugh out of it..despite the unhappy, frustrating and sad events and moments. .
God Bless you all..
Gayane
To: Dr. Deranian & others:
Only if a DNA census could be taken. What would Turks think? say? If one’s DNA is Armenian one certainly cannot be a Turk from the Eastern lands. 1 in 5 is a huge %. These forced conversions are not easy to overlook!
I also cried many many tears for all the people who perished, especially in such barbaric ways. The old, the young, the sick, the pregnant, boys, young men and women who had no guilt but that they were Ermeni? How could a human being (if they are so?) be so cruel to another? And then in a wholesale manner too! You notice that after they had violated & murdered they also gloated about it all? My grandpa’s brother-in-law (his sister’s husband) was tortured…his nails pulled off. He survived to write 2 books titled “Bahage Baneshin Vra” & “Korsh Kayle Gadgher Er”. They are both in Armenian and written after the war in Alexandria, Egypt.
More history for all of you!
G
I understand the vigil for the victims of the armenian genocide did take place in Istanbul. For the first time in history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gefh0IGlZ9A
SG, Istanbul, Burak Can and other brave Turks who participated in this discussion, if you occasionally visit it, could you please translate, in general, what the people who gathered for the remembrance event say and what ultranationalist Turks are responding? They act like beasts, I wouldn’t suspect for a split second, that, if given a chance, they’d massacre those who speak the truth…
It’s really a bit sad to see on these pages the amount of rage that ensues when someone voices a thought or idea that is not exactly what someone else wants to hear, or does not conform to someone’s way of thinking. Do you all know how to have a civilized discussion without resorting to control tactics? I will tell you that quite a few people have dropped out of the Armenian scene because of such close-mindedness. For every Armenian who reads these pages, there are hundreds out there who don’t. Please keep this in mind and try to think of why that’s the case. We live in a modern era where open, educated thinking should be respected, not trashed, especially when dealing w/ serious issues like the genocide. As the Japanese say, a tree that cannot bend in the wind will snap. There is way too much snapping going on here.
You see…Turkey is indeed maturing in a good way: http://www.theprovince.com/news/genie+bottle/2949037/story.html
Answer just one question, Karekin. But do please answer it. Don’t hide away in these pages hoping that the time will pass and commentators will forget some of your derogatory comments.
You claim: [it’s] sad to see on these pages the amount of rage that ensues when someone voices a thought or idea that is not exactly what someone else wants to hear, or does not conform to someone’s way of thinking.
When you allowed yourself outrageous phrases (and I hope you’d agree that derogation of one’s religious or national feelings is an outrageous behavior for someone like you, who considers himself as one who lives ‘in a modern era where open, educated thinking should be respected’) like ‘[Jesus Christ,] some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks’ or ‘Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey… Perhaps they should thank Talaat Pasha for that,’ did you or did you not think that these phrases (not to count many others) could possibly ensue innate rage or at least would not conform someone’s way of thinking? Hah? Nevertheless, you did allow yourself to descend to such indecency.
Look into yourself. Ask yourself: wouldn’t such comments of mine, even if I consider them as my thoughts or ideas, offend someone else’s national dignity and religious feelings? Never has any Armenian in this or any other discussion said anything about Islam and its relics or alluded on a nightmarish idea that perhaps Jews should thank Adolf Hitler for living much better lives now… But you did. Think whether you crossed the boundaries of decency and civility.
Anyone could protest in Turkey whether pro or con for anything. but I do not think you can do this in Erivan. You can do this in Paris or Zurich.
Turks are fair and they will not accept something which they have not done…
Karekin,
Yes.. there are some positive movements in the horizon…. such as the gathering to commemorate the Genocide in Instambul.. However, it does not mean we are out of the darkness yet.. please make a note.. below are some statements from the article you shared with us.
“He said that despite the police presence, organizers feared a backlash from people opposed to the demonstration.”
This does not tell me any advancement in 90% of population when it comes to the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians.. It is definintely a positive gesture but it is not merely what we call working toward reconciliation and recognition of what happened in 1915-1923. If the demonstrators still fearing of their lives just because they are standing up for truth and justice, what does that tell us?? It tells me that barbaric actions still very much alive in alot of Turks…including in their main body: Turkish govt…
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan welcomed a statement by U.S. President Barack Obama on Saturday which avoided the use of the term and instead referred to “one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century.”
This does not show any advancement in the US relations with the Armenians when it comes to the Genocide.. This shows how Turkey with its bloody claws continues its gag rule to shut US up.. This does not tell me any willingness from Turkey to move forward and do the right thing.. Does it to you????
Avoiding an open confrontation over the term genocide — which the Turkish government fiercely rejects — the petition speaks of the “Great Catastrophe” of the massacres.
Still can’t use the word Genocide in Turkey… Does this show any advancement in political and national level???? I don’t think so….
I don’t see Turkey taking a positive stride on this matter ..not now, not ever (at least I hope they will eventually come to their senses in this regard)….” So preaching about brotherhood and doing things in a more forgiving and working together ways is something I am not ready to do..i assume many other Armenians think the same…… Not to say we should not recognize those Turks who despite their own fear of staying alive stand by ARmenians and fight for righteousness and truth.. I bow to them for speaking out… They are our modern day heros…
Karekin, your views are so confusing to me that I can’t say I agree with you voice….. to me you are still an enigma… I don’t have to agree with you nor do I have to take what you say under consideration if I dont’ see the value… that does not mean we are closed minded.
We have read and allowed you to express your thoughts…… the Weekly allowed you to post your comments (no matter how outrageous and wrong there may have been from time to time)… and you still comment on “we” are being closed minded? Hmmm… again mixing the pot here…
God Bless
Gayane
Anyone could protest in Turkey whether pro or con for anything. but I do not think you can do this in Erivan. You can do this in Paris or Zurich.
Turks are fair and they will not accept something which they have not done…
There is just so much you know nothing about, Kurt. And it is remarkable to be that deliberately deaf, dumb and blind. The genocide and its denial by people like you is the absolute definition of injustice. The whole world knows it. Only you don’t. What does that say about you?
Kurt you give all Turks a bad name.
Karekin:
If you don’t work for the Turkish government or some PR agency, then you’re working without being paid. I support this demonstration but it’s pitiful to claim some sort of great leap forward. This was faced by a vehement demonstration against it, the mainline Kemalist rhetoric denouncing it. They needed massive police security. And the only reason its happening is because there is too much political pressure going opposite Turkey now for it not to have to give way. This could go any way from here. But clearly, if you read the NY Times article today, Turkey has lots its support in the West on this issue, and they must be desperately trying to find a way to deal with it. I’m glad for the demonstration, but there is just no way you could proclaim light and liberty have dawned forever. It’s way too early for that.
And if the rest of the Armenian world was like you instead of the activists who have worked so hard for recognition, scholarship, etc etc — this NEVER would have happened.
oops
lots its support in the West on this issue = lost its support …
NY Times article on genocide proclamation by Obama:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/25/world/europe/25prexy.html
So where are we?…
Another April 24th has come and gone and although commemorations and conferences have taken place in Istanbul and Ankara, Turkey has yet to admit to its crimes and to offer fair reparation.
Turkey continues to skirt responsibility by blaming the victims and suggesting they were responding to an Armenian threat (civil war, some Armenian alliance with Russia, etc.,) during WWI.
Turkey continues to scold the world for what it calls “third party interference” in its relations with Armenia, yet Turkey exerts untold pressure to influence US policy and untold dollars to buy academic scholarship in its favor.
The US President is afraid to call a genocide a genocide, given the current political climate, despite the fact that the Congress has done so in the past under the Reagan administration.
Armenia suspends the Protocols because Turkey insists on preconditions regarding Azerbaijan and Artsakh.
Turks like Kurt really believe that Armenians are picking on the Turks.
Armenians like Karekin complain that other Armenians express too much rage, while others complain that Turkish Armenians like AB don’t express enough.
And 1.5 million souls still await justice while their descendants long for some restoration of what was lost of their 3 to 4 thousand year old presence in Asia Minor.
Who will lead us out of this mess? What will justice look like? When will it come?
Janine…please – get off your high horse and get real. And, please stop attempting to insult someone by insinuating that they have something to do w. the Turkish govt or propaganda machine. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, all people – including Armenians – are free to have thoughts based on reality, not some fantasy or hatred. I grew up in an Armenian household and there was never, ever any hatred voiced towards Turks. That may have been in your environment, but not in mind. At the same time, no one is saying that the situation in Turkey regarding the genocide is some kind of paradise, but you need to admit that it is progress. As you know, Rome was not built in a day. This is new and part of a process. The process is of ‘unlearning’ a mythical past about the creation of the new Turkey. So, it will take time. Gamatz, gamatz…the truth is emerging in Turkey and Turks are part of the process. You really need to learn how to appreciate these positive developments that are going on and how to encourage them….not stifle them based on a narrow view of the world. If you’ve ever planted a garden, you know that it takes time for a seed to become a tomato….this is the same thing. Patience, my dear, patience….
Do not give Turks a bad name, pls
Karekin – I told you the truth — to me you really sound like you work for the govt. This conference is taken by some brave people and I pray for their safety. I wish I could meet them. But “maturing?” The whole country? It is way way way too early for that. It is you who are not real. Did you see the video of the vigil? Did you see the counter-demonstration? I give all credit to the people at the vigil, and as I have said here, I have had the fortune to meet Turks who were enlightened intellectuals, people who thirst after truth, really really admirable, and brave. I will say that I don’t even know if I would be as brave in their shoes. But you cannot make proclamations about the country when they are in a situation where everything could change tomorrow and they wind up on charges somewhere.
As for a high horse, and insults — well, I write honestly and not to be insulting. I think it is you who needs to “get real” and quit making assumptions about others.
PS And I stand by what I said. Without all the activism of the Armenian community in Diaspora all these years (especially in the US), we never would be here at all.
One last note: I know very well that there have been intellectuals in Turkey – for LONG TIME – who know the truth of this. That is why I don’t see their existence as something brand new. But in the past they were thrown in jail, or when something like this came too close there would be a coup, or whatever. That is why I say it’s too early to call the whole country maturing. This is a “one step forward” but we really do not know what will happen. I pray for these brave people who want a better, freer and more open country. They still cannot say “genocide”
Boyajian – I heard some interesting speeches yesterday. Among some of the ideas: a leader of the Armenian Congressional Caucus says that with Pelosi as speaker and other leadership ready to introduce and push the bill, this can pass if Armenians continue the campaign now to contact Reps, etc. within the next few weeks.
I heard another two speakers say lawsuits have been won and they want to press new lawsuits, not just for claims from insurance companies but also regarding monuments and property of Armenian Patriarchate in Turkey for churches, etc in world courts, federal court, etc
I also think it is important to see the genocide as part of a whole — and remember the other communities who suffered “deportations” and all that meant with us: the Greek & Assyrian. I have seen these organizations begin working together and I really don’t think we get a clear picture of history without understanding this idea of religion and the role it played.
Those are some ways people are going forward. I agree that the demonstrations in Istanbul are forward movements. I think more artists and intellectuals will be doing some creative collaboration one way or another. There is going to be a concert in NY for Hrant Dink with some Turkish artists. I believe the hope is also with more literature that may be published in Turkey.
A few Armenians who were born in Turkey, whom Armenians in the Diaspora and Armenia call ‘polsahayer’ (Armenians of Konstantinople) or ‘tajkahayer’ or ‘Turqiayi hayer’ (Armenians of Turkey), have specific attitudes and behavioral characteristics typical to those of Karekin. These species are rare, but they exist. Several of us attempted to understand the motives behind Karekin’s atypical behavior and, in some instances, his outrightly derogatory words. He accepts that ‘he grew up in an Armenian household and there was never any hatred voiced towards Turks,’ that ‘nowhere else was he treated better than in Turkey,’ etc. I have no idea if he works for the Turkish government or some PR agency or if he’s an Armenian or Armenian Christian at all. He seems to be a descendant of those Armenians who lived in Turkey before immigrating to the U.S. for whom Turkey is a birthplace, and even, technically, a motherland. Even though their family members have endured Turkish barbarity during the genocide, I imagine Karekin’s parents could have lived a relatively good life in the aftermath, have Turkish friends, enjoy Turkish food, visit places, etc. Birthplace and associated memories of natal and adolescent life, social affiliations, memories of places, events, as well as the language spoken in the family, leave a mark on one’s psyche, no doubt about it. But most people are able of differentiating these influences from their real world views and judgments. A few people like Karekin, apparently, are not. We can’t blame him for having such an excessive affinity to an alien culture and, perhaps, alien religion. What is unfortunate is that his remarks have outgrown from this social and psychological affinity and onto attempts to impose parity on an aborigine creative nation and a nomadic destroying invader, the murderer and the victim; on cases of ethnic or religious intolerance, wars, intercommunal clashes, invasions, etc. and a deliberate, government-panned extermination of a human civilization; on pacifistic calls for brotherly love and justified demand for a mere apology; on the perception that Armenians stigmatize Turks as murderers and disregard for the fact that Armenians essentially abhor the denialist Turkish state, not its people; and so on and so forth. He calls on us to be compassionate and understanding, yet fails to tell us whether he makes similar calls in the Turkish discussion forums. He calls on us to be patient and enduring, yet fails to tell us how much longer than the past 95 years we need to endure and if our patience is not used by the Turks to lead the issue into oblivion. He calls on us to be forgiving, even brings up teachings of Christ in support of his appeal, yet fails to admit that Jesus also taught to be repentant. He calls on us to be love each other as Jesus preached, yet fails to apologize for derogating Lord Jesus in one of his most disgraceful comments.
Karekin,
If you think Janine should come off from her high horse because she does not agree with your views, then I would say you need to come off from your la la clouds because your comments, views and thoughts are so outrageous, twisted and confusing that any Armenian on this forum WOULD think you are part of the Turkish propaganda… why were you surprised by that comment anyway??? You are trying to dangle a carrot in front of us by injecting some positive about Armenia and its well being but that does not cover the majority of your comments that are VERY pro Turkish… Come on man, this is getting annoying…
You speak of patience… PATIENCE???? is 95 years of being patient enough for you sir? 95 years…. what nation, people, country would be this patient before it punishes the monsters.. you name one…. so please don’t tell me be patient… we are out of patient… enough is enough.. this should not have happened to be begin with…. but it did.. this should not have taken this long.. but it did.. it is time for NOT BEING PATIENT anymore.. you get it??? as i stated before, being patient did not get us anywhere for the last 95 years…. we will try to be undersanding and patient??? not anymore.. sorry….
If you believe that we do not recognize the positive then you should get off your low horse… we commented many times over that we appreciate, and recognize everything the few brave Turks are doing despite everything.. do you not read the comments in completion??? However, Turkey as a whole is no where CLOSE to what it needs to be… and we will NOT ACCEPT that… so keep your sentiments that Turkish govt/community are doing everything to make this happen..
please…that is a joke…
Kurt…. you are all in all a lost cause.. it is right now .. that ” I feel sorry for you” that you graciously used on me.. should be directed to you… WOW.. such a lost cause..
Boyajian.. excellent commentary…
Janine… thank you for sharing the NY Times… I am actually surprised that the newspaper spoke how it is.. very impressed…
Karo….. mersi for showing Karekin that what he says does not match what he thinks…..
Gayane
Gayane – that NY Times article is for certain a sign that things are changing in the US and by that I mean with our government. I don’t think such a thing could possibly have appeared in print in the NY Times up until this date! It even surprises all of us!!
Apres Ahanit jan… Shat apres….
Excellent comment..
Gayane
To: Anahit
You have the same name as my mom. She will be 86 this year.
Karekin is one of thousands. If he is a ‘bolsahye’ then he is typically protective of his citizenship. Or he may simply be reluctant to spend energy on ‘baykar’.’
I had an uncle (married to my my mom’s sister) he was born in Burdur in 1910 later his family lived in Constantinople. Their name was altered to look and sound like a Turkish name. This was to avoid persecution :) OK!
Both sides of my family were/are very ARF people. So uncle’s views clashed big time with the rest of the family, particularly with my grandpa…uncle’s father-in-law. How could grandpa deny the genocide when his first wife was taken in 1917?
His older brother taken in 1895!
What were uncle’s opinion/views? Exactly the same the Turkish State. That Armenians orginized to revolt and that they deserved to be massacred and punished for taking up arms against the (oppressive) government. He didn’t have to think this way…he lived in Egypt; no longer in Turkey. Uncle was a very intelligent and a successful businessman (Istambul, Alexandria, Egypt, later in Italy/France, where he died a Turkish citizen:( ) He passed away only a short while ago he was 97 y/o
Here is what I ask myself: How can an intelligent, successful, Armenian man, (I was the only boy in the family, spent lots of time with him, assembling & building things like kites etc. he was a great guy!) actually come to believe such a ridiculous BS theory that Armenians could possibly rise up against the might of the Osmanean Regime? How can someone actually believe such non-sense? I have not been able to figure it out…even at my present age. When I was a teenager I had to accept grown-ups’ opinion! It was not an option. I didn’t believe what he believed in, because my grandpa knew the TRUTH and he explained all this to me. TRUTH sets us FREE!
So…what we are calling ‘brainwashing’ is/has been, very very strong, deep rooted in the Bolsahye community. It will take lots of time to reverse the BS taught. At the moment the Bolsahye have no choice but to cling to the BS until things start changing. The Bolsahye still live under an oppressive regime today! It is pure non-sense for Erdogan to claim “Armenians are running to Turkey, because there is peace in Turkey”. There may be more jobs than in Armenia right now? Maybe?
So please do not be too upset with Karekin. I don’t know if he is bolsahye or simply cannot be bothered struggling to see change & justice, at the same level as some other people who are and have grown impatient after 95 yrs.
Khatchig is in Turkey as we speak….perhaps you should direct your anger toward him for going there, spending money there, breathing the same air as the Turks and eating ‘their’ food. I, for one, will not be angry with him….far from it. We should all applaud his efforts. Yes, my family is from Turkey…get over it people…get over it! For about 3000+ years, that’s where most Armenians came from, no matter if it was called the Byzantine empire, Persian empire, Arab empire or Ottoman empire….if the truth of history bothers you, then that’s just too bad. You cannot change history w/ your bad attitude and lack of understanding – especially of Armenians who have a wide range of experiences, education and comprehension of the world. I never experienced such close-mindedness before in my family life, and yes, I find it disturbing to see it here.
I don’t agree with you, Karekin, when you go on a rant about Armenians being too strident and rageful. You don’t balance these reprimands to Armenians with reciprocal reprimands to Turks for being blinded by nationalistic pride, insulting to Armenians and reluctant to face the crimes committed by the Ittihad government? You have had ample opportunity to offer such commentary on this forum to Turkish writers who show a lack of awareness, knowledge and sensitivity. You don’t practice what you preach nor take the opportunity to demonstrate your better way of relating to Turks.
However I do agree with your characterization of Turks lacking knowledge of the truth and slowly waking up to the ugliness of it. I appreciate your reminder to Armenians to be patient and recognize that a change is unfolding in Turkey. I also agree that a less strident attitude might promote a better dialogue.
But there is a place for righteous indignation after 95 years of mourning for 1.5 million innocent lives lost that have yet to see justice done. You also have to admit that it is not the mourning, but the righteous indignation that has kept the fight alive and brought awareness and awakening to fair-minded Turks. Yes, sometimes the angry Armenian voice is hard for the Turk to hear, but it is this voice that has begun to reach the heart and moral-backbone of some Turks.
We Armenians should find hope in this and show appreciation to Turks who are willing to confront a painful truth. But the fight is not over, especially when the Turkish leadership continues to distort the truth, interfere with Armenia’s relationship with Azerbaijan, and manipulate the public policy of our own country. Our resolve to have the truth acknowledged should not waver even if our rhetoric softens a bit.
Gary, it is very common in victim psychology to find that victims blame themselves and their own “bad” behavior or judgment for what happened to them. As irrational as it may seem to us, it makes the evil appear less random and gives the victim a sense of control, which is easier to cope with psychologically. It is also not uncommon to find survivors dealing with their own survivor guilt by placing blame on the behavior or bad judgment of those who didn’t make it. It is all part of the coping process while trying to make sense of a traumatic event. Of course, not every victim or survivor experiences these thoughts and emotions, but this may explain some of the reasons for your Uncle’s thinking. This may also help us understand why some Turks are so prone to believe the stories that suggest Armenians brought this on themselves. It is easier to blame us than to accept the alternative view of their inherited legacy and subsequent responsibility. This is where Karekin has a point when he suggests that we be patient and begin to show empathy for the Turk who has a heavy burden to come to terms with.
The human mind tries to make sense of things and can do strange mental gymnastics when things don’t make sense.
Dear Gary,
Thank you for your post. Very sincere and believable arguments. And I agree with you in most part. And I think I understood a while ago what could be the basis for Karekin’s twisted convictions. However, his personal convictions give him no right to insult Jesus Christ as ‘some carpenter with magic tricks.’ I believe he crossed the line of civility and respect for other people’s religious feelings by such a despicable phrase. Were there such antichrist attitudes in your polsahay uncle’s family?
Respects,
A
To: Anahit
There was no questionable behaviour in my uncle’s (Diran) lifestyle. He and my auntie raised 3 beautiful daughters. No disrespect to our Christian heritage nor insults for our Lord Jesus Christ. His only unacceptable theory was that he blaimed the ARF being the reason for the martyrdom of the innocent population.
This hurt my grandpa big time, as grandpa was a very strong ARF member.
To: Boyajian
Your comments are well noted. Thank you.
Vi, Vi Karekin…how did you manage to say such ugly things about our Lord Jesus Christ? I hope you have repented and asked HIM to forgive you for the disrespect?
One thing we know for sure…that the Lord Jesus will forgive us no matterw what we have done or said….however, we have to repent and ask for HIS forgiveness.
Have you done this already? If you ask HIM to forgive you and do it publicly I believe that the people in this forum will also forgive you! :)
We all have to do what is right!
G
The clinial definition of insanity is when someone engages in the same action, over and over again, expects to see a different result and goes nuts when he doesn’t get it. My point is that there is absolutely no need for me to reiterate everything we already know about the genocide, who did it, etc, etc, etc. We’ve all read those details a zillion times for many years. Preaching to the choir doesn’t do much good to change those outside the church. The Turkish govt is outside of our church…and retelling genocide horror stories to each other is not productive of a good use of your intellectual energy. If you want to make a serious change, you do what Khatchig is doing – you go to Turkey and you talk w/ people who can make a difference. This is an important change in behavior. Rather than huddling in a hole as Armenians have been doing for a very long time, some of us are now reaching out to the other side. It is an aspect of bridge building….and that’s what we need now…not the same old crowd ranting w/ torches in the dark, which has not gotten us what we really want. In fact, it’s just turned Armenians against each other, apparently. Just witness these pages and the vitriol that is spewed toward anyone who doesn’t conform to a certain mindset. Instead of using that energy to go after the US, Israeli or Turkish politicians who actively work in an anti-Armenian way, some writer here feel the need to bash fellow Armenians who are also trying to help, but in new ways that may, in fact, be alot more effective. Please get off the hatred and anger treadmill folks….it’s very tiring and not very useful at all.
Instead of using that energy to go after the US, Israeli or Turkish politicians who actively work in an anti-Armenian way, some writer here feel the need to bash fellow Armenians who are also trying to help, but in new ways that may, in fact, be alot more effective.
Do you REALLY have no idea what we’ve been doing in lobbying governments and politicians over the past 25 years then?
Karekin, you are a lost case. If after being on these pages for so long you came to a conclusion that commentators here are full of ‘hatred and anger’. When confronted with straight questions, you choose to huddle in the hole like coward. When confronted with the demand for apology for insulting Lord Jesus and our religious feelings, you choose to disregard it like coward. Compare your denial to apologize with the denial to recognize the genocide, and decide for yourself whose national features you bear more: Armenian or Turkish?
If you’re trying to help ‘in new ways’ and feel that Armenians are filled with ‘hatred and anger’, why haven’t you, as one commentator here rightly argued, just once, balanced your reprimands to Armenians that denounce the Turkish State with reciprocal reprimands to Turks for being reluctant to face the crimes committed by their forefathers? You claim you’re saddened to see ‘the rage that ensues when someone voices a thought or idea that does not conform to someone’s way of thinking.’ But don’t you think your own thoughts and ideas can cause rage when you knowingly derogate Christian relics as in ‘Jesus Christ is some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks’ or when you knowingly make our wound swell as in ‘Armenians perhaps should thank Talaat Pasha for living much better lives now’ or when you knowingly insult the souls of innocent victims as in ‘Demanding recognition [of genocide] is not helpful or productive’? or when you knowingly spit out dozens of other ‘ideas’ that outrightly distort the ethnogenesis, history, national distinctiveness (in geographical and linguistic terms only), and religious beliefs of the Armenian people? When you allow yourself these scoldings, don’t you think they could be perceived as demonstration of hatred and anger by the commentators and readers here?
You’re free to have your own vision, your own convictions, your own new way of tackling the issue. You want to go to Turkey and talk with people who can make a difference? Fine, go. Noone would ‘bash’ you for having this mindset, especially as we recall that nowhere else have you been treated better that in Turkey. You’re free to help in this new way if you think it’ll work. But understand that other people find ways of being helpful in academic, international, legal, advocacy, human rights, political, financial, and other endeavors. At the end of the day all of these efforts, cumulatively, including your ‘new way,’ will bring a long-awaited recognition and tranquility to the Armenians.
Just like Kurt, you are also a lost cause Karekin… as many here voiced…
I understand that you may have a strong desire to make things right but the way you are going is not the most successful way..i and many of my comrads here feel pretty much degraded and disrespected when we are contineously being called angry people with lots of hate … ..
You tell us to go to Turkey and talk to people.. This is how we change their mindset.. Well if you are that optimistic, why don’t you do that? You have not said one word about how YOU as such pro-Turkish person is accomplishing this…Are you talking to the Turks? Are you teaching them to be brotherly and recognize the Genocide? Are you teaching them about who Armenians are and how determined we are no matter how friendly, loving, and patient we are???.. I have not seen your reply to any of the numerous questions from the commentators about what Turkish sites or blogs do you visit to voice the same brotherly messages ..this means your words and koch does not stand a valid ground among the Armenians who truly care about the country, history and Genocide……
Until you prove that you do the same with the Turks, please do not get upset when we point out your insecurities and incorrect statements.. some of us pointed out your pro Turkish comments and negative comments about the Armenians…but it does not matter for you.. I feel that you continue to stick to your own agenda and refuse to be separated from it.. …you think this is not tiring for those of us trying to show you a different face of the matter???
You may have a good heart, and you may have good intentions; however your thought process and your way of going about changing the mindset here is just a bit too obscure and ridiculeous… I am sorry to say… this is not to say that you did not have some things that were positive…..
Keep reading the comments that your comrads are writing to you.. seek to understand first before asking to be understood….
Thank you
Gayane
Karekin, I just don’t see the anger and hatred that you see. I see passion fueled by righteous indignation, which seems appropriate to me. What’s wrong with that? It’s human to want to be understood and valued. When 1.5 million of your ancestors are killed and nothing is done about it, you can begin to feel angry over how disposal these lives have been treated. Why not have some more compassion for your fellow Armenians along with your good advice to tone down the rhetoric and proceed in good faith to promote dialogue?
To: Karekin & Boyajian
I believe, you are both correct, with your statements. While we should alter our approach, so that we get the desired results…we must also not let our passion for JUSTICE be extinguished. After all, this is what all murderers hope for, to have no witness to their crime.
A non-Armenian friend, yesterday, said to me “Gary it’s crazy to demand justice after 95 yrs. Who cares what happened 95 yrs.ago? The people today are not responsible for their ancestors’crimes”. I agreed that he wasn’t the only one who thought this way! However, what would he do if his daughter was murdered?
I explained that the people today are not guilty; but their State is!
The correct term ‘righteous indignation’ was and is upheld by our Lord Jesus. And I believe that HE preserved a remnant of Armenians, who have now grown into millions, in 95 yrs. , to let the world know that we didn’t all die. Like it has been said, the presence of the Diaspora is proof for the Genocide.
Living people have the right to seek Justice for their dead! Dead people cannot seek justice even if they want to.
We also know that, even if justice is not achieved on Earth, in the END, God will certainly punish all of the guilty and wipe all our tears away!
G
Amen, Gary. So very true! Especially the last part. As for your non-Armenians friends question, I used to answer in such cases that the people today are indeed not responsible for their ancestors’ crimes, but their state must apologize for their ancestors’ crimes. By the way, many other non-Armenians understand out pain. I have an American friend of Scottish origin who, after hearing the news on those idiotic protocols, told me in tears(!): ‘How could you forgive without being offered an apology?’
I have no doubt whatsoever that we’ll come out victorious in the name of Jesus Christ, who, indeed, saved us as our Lord and Savior.
God bless.
A
How long after the Holocaust should a Jewish person start to tolerate Nazi rhetoric and stereotypes? An African-American the KKK? This question is atrocious. We still face much more hatred than anybody acknowledges. It’s disgusting to think about. And the truth has to come somewhere into this question, and justice as well. Where is the mercy on the other side? Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, not its exception into masochism. Unfortunately we get a false picture of crucifixion as a masochistic act – that is total heresy IMO
Look folks…I HAVE been to Turkey, more than once…and I can honestly tell you that across the board, no one there I talked with (and this was many, many people at all levels of society) ever agreed w/ the their government’s approach to the genocide. Over and over again, I was told that they know exactly what happened to the Armenians and that they blame the government. I was a bit amazed, but this is the truth. So…say you learn your neighbor’s great-grandfather was a murderer a long time ago, went to jail, etc, etc, etc…..does this mean you don’t talk to your neighbor? Does it mean you bang on their door and scream ‘murderer’ over and over again to their face? On a more personal level, my neighbor’s older brother went on a rampage and killed three of my school classmates. What were those of us who lived next door supposed to do? Not talk w/ the family? Hold up signs saying ‘murderer’? I think the rest of the family knew very well what the son did…and would not have appreciated those kinds of hurtful tactics. No one is saying or suggesting that Armenians forget anything, but the key here is getting the mindset of the controlling group in Turkey to change, and perhaps see or accept things from the Armenian point of view…and to show some human empathy. This can and will happen, if slowly. However, in order to get that, I believe WE have to change as well. As they say, if you throw mud, chances are, some of it is going to bounce back on you. Let’s try to stop throwing mud all the time. Throw flowers instead, for a change…and see what happens. It can’t hurt, because the truth is on our side.
Karekin – regarding the example of murder. I presume someone went to the police, went to the courts, went to a justice system. If the system said, “Fine, terror is okay with us, you have no recourse” then maybe the family would take matters into their own hands, one way or another. A peaceful way to do that is through publicity, protests, even carrying signs around the neighbor’s house.
But I guarantee you the victim’s family would not waste their time FOR 95 YEARS begging the family to reconsider, “Oh please, feel our pain, be nice to us if we are nice to you.” Don’t you think that would be a bit silly, given the facts of the case already? This analogy does not hold water unless you just want to tell people to shut up.
And frankly, we can all see the people in the tape who are not “every person in Turkey” that you seem to want to portray, the ones who are shouting Kemalist slogans, the ones that the people in the vigil need protection from, the one who took his photo with the police after he killed Hrant Dink. You apparently have never heard of the Grey Wolves or any such thing. Well, I have never been to Turkey and I have met people who denied anything ever happened to Armenians, I have met people who hated me on sight, who were viscerally angry when I told them I was Armenian (when I was just introducing myself and actually just wanted to be honest and courteous and not hide from them anything). I have also met sympathetic people. But please don’t tell us everybody feels like those in the Vigil. Nor that justice happens by some magic waiting period if we are just nice to people who in which there is already a philosophy of ethnic supremacy against the victims who always deserved what they got anyway.
To: Janine
Once again you have spoken your mind….Katch Aghchig! (Brave Woman!)
I wish I could have learned more Turkish from my grandparents. I didn’t know I would need it? I know the opposition in the Vigil is angry but I can’t tell what they are saying. Does it really matter? Some hate us!
Perhaps someone will translate for us who are not into Turkish?
Thank you for voicing and continued contribution to this form, Janine
G
To: Anahit:
Yes, forgiveness can happen only after confession of guilt, repentance, and in many cases restitution! Even small children know this.
Can you imagine a child refusing to own up to guilt? They know there will be no peace until they own up to whatever wrong they may have done. The difference is that depending one age, small children don’t understand right-from-wrong! They learn quickly! It sure doesn’t take decades!
G
No one has to give the Islamic Republic of Turkey a bad name, they have done a great job of doing this themselves. Their policy of denial and censorship of Article 301 is SHAMEFUL. To deny that the true first inhabitants the indigenous people of Anatolia were not forced out of their ancestorial land is a LIE.
The yoke and sword of the Ottoman Turkey fell on many groups beside the Armenians: Lebanese Maronites, Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Arabs, Bulgarians, Assyrians, Kurds, Balkans, and so forth. The Ottomans goal was 1 person 1 nation 1 religion aka “Turkification” to Europe – middle east to Egypt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification
Killing, raping or stealing along the way. And Turkey wonders why no other country (besides the obvious Turkish ones Azerbaijan, etc) do not like or trust Turkey?
Turkey just keep on lying, it won’t change the truth or the fact that 42 states in the USA and 22 countries have already formerally recognized the Armenian Genocide.
No one has to give the Islamic Republic of Turkey a bad name, they have done a great job of doing this themselves. Their policy of denial and censorship of Article 301 is SHAMEFUL. To deny that the true first inhabitants the indigenous people of Anatolia were not forced out of their ancestorial land is a LIE.
The yoke and sword of the Ottoman Turkey fell on many groups beside the Armenians: Lebanese Maronites, Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Arabs, Bulgarians, Assyrians, Kurds, Balkans, and so forth. The Ottomans goal was 1 person 1 nation 1 religion aka “Turkification” to Europe – middle east to Egypt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification
Killing, raping or stealing along the way. And Turkey wonders why no other country (besides the obvious Turkish ones Azerbaijan, etc) do not like or trust Turkey?
Turkey just keep on lying, it won’t change the truth or the fact that 42 states in the USA and 22 countries have already formerally recognized the Armenian Genocide. Keep hiding behind expensive lobbyists to clean up your dirty image.
AMEN JENINE…
Karekin.. are you for real??? have you read any of our comments about those brave Turks who stand for justice???? WE Armenians throw FLOWERS andddddddd words of gratefulness, thankfulness and appreciation.. We call THEM our HEROS… have you missed those comments??? OH MY GOD.. you are killing me over here.. slowly… come on.. like i said.. get off your la la land and come into reality.. Your Turkey is NOT and WILL NOT be the rosy colored nation that you are trying SO HARD to portray… We repeatedly told you that we condemn Turkey as a whole. we praise those handful individuals and groups who got out of that denialist stage and saw the world in colors vs gray.. They are the brave individuals who we stand behind and encourage.. They do not need to wait another 95 years… despite the fact that Turkey to this day stops anyone from speaking of the truth, these individuals broke away from all this propaganda…why not the rest??? hmmmmm?? everyone has the chance to do so in Turkey, why don’t they? Tell me….
You are correct in stating that truth is on our side… however, it does not seem you are….maybe one day.. who knows???
Anyway.. hopefully what you dream of you can accomplish.. but be careful of not throwing mud on the rest of the ARmenians faces just to save your face…
Gayane
Firstly, let me say that while 95 years is a long time, it is not the 500 years of subjugation, slavery and murder endured by the native Americans. And, if you live in the US – you are living on stolen American Indian land drenched w/ the blood of millions of natives. Second – it is always very important to know friend from foe, and I’m afraid that is missing in this forum. You may not realize it, but for hundreds if not thousands of years, one of the underlying reasons it was so impossible for a unified, independent Armenian state to survive for any period of time was because of the endlessfighting and bickering between the various ishkhans and nakharars who ruled their little feudal kingdoms. They spent more time attacking each other than anything else. Don’t you think it’s long past time for Armenians to stop attacking each other and start listening, cooperating and helping? This does not mean total agreement, but just an attempt to understand a different point of view. However, what we see here is mortal combat…against your own people. Get a grip, folks….neither I nor anyone else who disagrees w/ you is the real enemy. But, you can’t and should not try to control everyone else’s thought proccesses. Armenians have a tough time bowing to anyone, particularly another Armenian. So please don’t forget that.
Gary and everybody, over on the thread called “Mouradian: Despite Obstacles..” a very kind poster named SG whom I think is Turkish translated for us what was happening in this tape on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gefh0IGlZ9A
Here is his translation from the other thread:
For about 1.30 minutes they are talking about giving the people space. The reactionist at 2.00 is saying
“This country won’t raise any traitors. While children of this country are giving their lives for their country, there are traitors being raised here. This country under the influence of…”
He is interrupted by the racist crowd. They start to shout “Here is Turkey. Either love or leave” which happens to be the statement related to Hrant Dink’s murder. Then the guy goes on “All the organization which allow this meeting, starting with the government, we are protesting.” Crowd then goes ”Either love or leave.” , ”We are the soldiers of M. Kemal Ataturk”. They also start to sing the national anthem at some point.
People who gathered to commemorate 1915 events are saying the exact text written on their website. Click the following link to read the English version of it: http://buacihepimizin.org//index.php?sayfa=2
Then a guy makes an announcement: Friends! We will be sitting here in silence for 30 minutes.
Gary,
A Turkish friend of ours, SG, has kindly agreed to translate in general what was happenning in the Taksim Square. Please visit ‘Mouradian: Despite Obstacles, Armenian Genocide Commemorations Held in Turkey’ and look up for SG and his comment.
Karekin, Janine, Gayane, Anahit, Karo, Gary, and all; we are beginning to fit Karekin’s definition of insanity by doing (saying) the same thing over and over again, hoping for different results but getting the same result yet again. Let’s agree to disagree. Different views for different people. Let’s focus instead on what we all have in common: our desire to see Armenia prosper and official Turkish acknowledgment of what happened. Let’s not make other Armenians the target of our criticism, but use our energies to work toward our mutual goal from all possible angles, whether it’s diplomacy, protest, vigils, media attention, academic forums and conferences, feature films, documentaries, lobbying, talking to our friends, writing letters to lawmakers, writing poetry, prose or fiction, having coffee/chats with Turks, etc. In the end, we should support each other as we work for truth and justice for our ancestors as well as our countrymen in Armenia.
At the same time, let’s not forget to live our lives as fully as possible right where we are. Let’s do good as citizen’s of the world, championing justice where we can and contributing to God’s creation in a positive way. If we let the Turk’s keep us in a perpetual state of tunnel vision, thus stifling our creativity, they have beat us coming and going. Armenia grows when Armenians grow. And as Armenia grows, it can better defend itself on the world stage against adversaries like Turkey and Azerbaijan.
I have so much respect for the passion and the intellectual struggle evident on this forum. There is a place for everyone’s ideas, including enigmas, Turks, ARFer’s, pacifists, fedayees, academics, mourners, activists and even the occasional mind-gamers. It keeps us all on our toes. May God hear our prayers
There is a place for everyone’s ideas, including enigmas, Turks, ARFer’s, pacifists, fedayees, academics, mourners, activists and even the occasional mind-gamers. It keeps us all on our toes. May God hear our prayers
I like this, Boyajian :-)
I also think that some people ears hear “hate-fest” when others are stating honest cries for justice, and honest truths about what has happened that has been swept under the rug. I have heard a non-Armenian friend describe a certain perception of truth from her life in certain parts of Middle East: “Truth is what I tell you.” Well, in a Christian notion of truth — and I think we can extend this to a modern world version of this understanding, at least as far as court systems are concerned — truth means that injustices are exposed for redress and healing. It really doesn’t matter who the perpetrator is in this sense: it’s not about them. It’s about the injustice covered up, the continuing injustice and insult of cover up, the lies that would hide a system designed to create nationalist inferiority of other races. I don’t care which country we are talking about. I would not like this system in the KKK or any other party in the world. I have a duty to tell the truth of the witnesses who can’t be here anymore, every time I see its attempt to be covered up.
You know, we are still getting posters taking shots at us here saying, “All Armenians only hate” because this one conference isn’t something that will wipe out all attempts at any form of redress or even stating the truth of what still continues. We have posters here who keep insisting that Turkey is more free than Armenia in some sort of here-we-go-again assertion of superiority. Well, sorry, this does not get a free pass from me as it would not get a free pass from the people who were in that Vigil either. You either have a set of principles or values or you don’t. I’m with the people in Takcim Square. They want the truth, they don’t want a racist system that lets their country stay in this morass of “they deserved it because they weren’t good little repressed subjects”. I agree with them
And Karekin, the peoples under Ottoman Yoke suffered just as long as the American Indians did. Furthermore the US Congress has repeatedly recognized the wrongs done to the Native Americans. It’s sad and horrible, and the history of racism that has gone with it also sad and horrible. Fortunately, most people don’t want to prolong it, and the KKK never got enough votes to put a President in office, let alone a lasting ideology that defines the country. No country is perfect. But some people insist theirs be treated with kid gloves, as if it were really perfect. That’s not hatred. Telling the truth can happen without hatred. A person who thinks they are above it will feel that as hatred. It’s a universal problem, so one that we can recognize easily.
Someone suggested some time ago to stop responding to Karekin, and I have to agree with Boyajian: ‘Different views for different people.’
Indeed, if one thinks that American Indians developed high civilization that’s been wiped out or if America was not densely populated by aborigine Indians and white men stole all vastly unpopulated lands from them, let him stay misguided.
If one thinks that during the medieval centuries only Armenian ishkhans and nakharars engaged in endless fighting and bickering and not that endless fighting and bickering was typical to all rulers of little feudal kingdoms across Europe, because in its classic sense feudalism refers to the Medieval European political system, let him stay misguided.
And if one thinks that if Armenians have a tough time bowing to anyone, particularly another Armenian, let him stay misguided because human beings are not obliged to bow to another human being, but only to God Allmighty.
I think part of the problem here is also with Armenian Weekly moderators, who otherwise do an excellent and highly commendable job, but at some point in this discussion they allowed an explicit religious offense in one of Karekin’s posts that outraged many commentators. I’m referring to his derogatory comment on Jesus Christ. Any insults, especially of religious nature, must not be allowed on these pages. I hope that given the volume of material moderators had to screen, this misdemeanor just slipped their attention.
Everyone here, except perhaps, Boyajian, seems to be missing the point and becoming enraged over petty details. The point is that Gandhi overthrew the British Empire and out of India, not with hatred or anger or guns. Martin Luther King overcame decades of racism and hatred…again, not w/ guns, but with uplifting words. Nelson Mandela overcame apartheid. Khatchig has gone to Turkey with a message, not with anger. Now, you may want to downplay them, but these analogies are not insignificant to the Armenian story. They are something that everyone can learn from. The hatred I see and read here is really just awful, unproductive and frankly, disheartening. It is not something I aspire to nor is it anything I saw or experienced in my life, despite the fact that both my grandparents’ families who were left in Turkey were wiped out. We can’t change things that have happened along the way, we can only change how we react to them. You may choose endless anger and hatred, and perhaps feel that it elevates you to some mythical, good place, but honestly, that’s just not for me. So be it.
To: Boyajian
As usual, you have, once again, said the wise words!
The point is that Gandhi overthrew the British Empire and out of India, not with hatred or anger or guns. Martin Luther King overcame decades of racism and hatred…again, not w/ guns, but with uplifting words
Honestly I have to laugh at this Karekin. I had a professor at university who used to say that Gandhi’s methods could only have worked against the British, and he pointed out what horrible things other colonial powers did to rebels, claiming Gandhi would have been wiped out by others. Let us ponder this idea. Do you really picture yourself in this role? And who has guns by the way? Who is advocating an armed struggle here? What have we been doing but pointing out injustice which Gandhi did loud and clear? Or do you think he just sat down and kept his mouth shut??? Then you don’t know anything about Gandhi. Do you think that Martin Luther King did not point out every injustice? Every instance of hatred? Did he stop pointing out what was wrong or just keep his mouth shut??? Do you have any idea what he said about the war in Vietnam, against the policies of the government? So, we are not allowed to point out what is real here? What is racist? Where is your example of hatred, anyway?
You are pointing things out that don’t exist. Much more hatred is expressed about us than by us — especially here.
Where is the hatred you are reading? Why do you not condemn the hatred in the tape of the Takcim demo? And fail to recognize that?
By the way, nobody murdered all the Indians nor sought to, and nobody murdered all the African Americans nor sought to in this country. But we Armenians in Turkey suffered a genocide when our ancestors starting talking about their rights. Where are the Armenians where my grandparents were from in Kharpert? What do you think was done to the Gandhis who spoke about injustice among our people — let alone to our grandmothers?
301 is still a fact, and any of the people who mention the word genocide can go to jail. We Armenians in the West do use Gandhi and King’s non-violence — or do you think his followers did not have signs, make pickets, and marches, etc???
So be it… And thus you left this discussion after advocating pacifism, goodness, and forgiveness without even uttering ‘I’m sorry’ for derogating Christ. If not for all other misdemeanor that Armenians heard from you here, at least for this one you, the one that portrays himself as a beacon of pacifism and forgiveness, could have apologized. Shame!
Janine, please spare your high intellect and passion for the Cause not for a lost cause… Let’s agree to disregard all his comments, once and for all…
Thanks again Gary.
Karo, I got the idea from you, no?
Karekin, you are really in a rut about this hateful Armenian thing. You are free to believe as you wish, and you make some good points, but they get lost when you criticize and insult people who feel differently than you. You may not feel upset, frustrated, angry or tired of waiting for Turkey to do the right thing, but others are. That doesn’t make them better than you or you better than them. Just in a different place. Give it a rest, for your own sake. Why is this such a sticking point for you, anyway?
Yes… please because I can’t stand any more wounds from Karekin… and his Turkish encomplices: Ahmet, Murat, Robert, AB, ect….
however, I love to read the rebuttels from Janine and Karo and Gary to Karekin’s comments… it gives everyone a sharp contrast what is right, and what is not.. It is a good educational forum… Karekin is free to voice opinions; however he thinks we are bunch of gendarms, sultans and Azerbajini soliers ready to slit throats and raise hell… My dear Karekin, someone who is not right in their mind may think such violence…. I know Janine asked the same questions I wanted to ask you myself Karekin…. (thank you my dear sister for these questions).. please be so kind and answer every single one..Even though we all know there is a high possibility that none of them will be answered.. Why??? Because you know we are nothing like the people you are portraying us to be…In addition, several commentators including myself asked you many times over : Do you share your peace and love thy neighbor with sugar and understanding with Turks??? Please give us examples of all the Turkish blogs you use to voice your peace loving thoughts and ideas….???
Karo jan…apres as always….your words always hit the bull’s eye…
Boyajian.. De el chem asum.. You are a true leader.. .:)
Gary jan— love your positive and affirmative posts..:)
God Bless
Gayane
Well, it’s a sticking point for me because I’ve heard and read the same things from Armenians all my life…and very little seems to have changed in the overall attitude. We now have an azad Hayastan…but, no one seems satisfied by that….they want more and more, even though Armenia itself is barely surviving. I also feel that Armenians are, in general, in a rut about 1915, and while blame for the genocide rests with Turkey, how we react to it at this point rests with us. Nothing we can do can restore what was lost, whether it’s people, or villages or anything else. Hoping, yearning and pining for something you can’t have just leads to endless sadness, depression and related behaviors that are not healthy. It concerns me because even if tomorrow morning we woke up to learn that Turkey acknowledged the genocide and apologized for it, there are plenty of Armenians who would still not be satisfied. We all must move forward, not backward…and whining about the past, real or mythic, only makes sense for a certain amount of time, after which, it becomes debilitating. The reality is, most Armenians on the planet have never stepped foot in today’s Armenia or even yesterday’s…and have no intention of ever doing so, or even of living there, yet they act as if they can tell/demand things of others who are, in fact, living there. I think now is the time for a reality check, not fantasy demands, and that endless anger will produce nothing of value. And yes, I realize this is me, not you. So be it.
Gayane thank you kouyrig and everybody else
I guess according to some people “Looking beyond Genocide and Debating Reparations” (as in the title of the article on the conference) as at the recent conference is not progress, just some never-never land of fantasy (at best).
I guess some people think that “moving beyond genocide, debating reparations” is just the stuff of fantasy and a waste of time
Dear friends,
I wonder if Jews can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for roughly 2000 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to re-create their lost historical homeland? But they persisted and achieved the national goal. This is the kind of nation I come to respect! Besides, what some portray as ‘more’ was, in fact, originally their own, not some other invader nation’s land.
I also wonder if Germans can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for some 45 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to get back half of their historical homeland that’s been occupied by the Soviets?
I also wonder if the Japanese can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for 65 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to receive back part of their historical homeland in Kuril Islands?
I wonder if the Argentineans can be blamed for ‘wanting more’ when for 177 years they’ve been ‘whining’ to get back a portion of their historical homeland in the Falkland (Malvinas) Islands.
I wonder…
Karekin..
I sincerely believe you need some sort of help…you said
It concerns me because even if tomorrow morning we woke up to learn that Turkey acknowledged the genocide and apologized for it, there are plenty of Armenians who would still not be satisfied. We all must move forward, not backward…and whining about the past, real or mythic, only makes sense for a certain amount of time, after which, it becomes debilitating.
You think we are whining by demanding justice? You think we are whining by sharing our frustrations and unfairness with the world (who by the way is beginning to see the real picture step by step)….Who is joining us on the Ship called Righteousness and Fairness…You think we are whining when we call the liars, murderers, spinless human beings by their real names? You think we are whining when we tell the world to wake up with our marches, commemorations, speeches, conferences, ect??…. You think we are whining because we point out how much you are off on certain topics?? WOW.. are you for real????
We now have an azad Hayastan…but, no one seems satisfied by that….they want more and more, even though Armenia itself is barely surviving.
So what you are saying is that Armenians now have a free Hayastan so we need to shut up and be happy with it?? Are you seriously suggesting for us to stop pursuing the recognition of the Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians??? Are you saying we are greedy and should be satisfied with a land that was forcefully taken from our ancestors and from us by the Turks? Are you suggesting that we should thank them for allowing us to have Hayastan? We should thank The Armenian govt for maintaining the independent Armenia and simply go on with our lives?? WOW
You speak of Armenians wanting more and more when, all we want is what WAS and SHOULD BE OURS? We would not be here if we were not pushed and killed out of our own home.. Armenia survives mostly because of Diaspora… You think it is because of our Govt that the Armenia is surviving?? You must be a fool to think that we should sit back and close our eyes, ears and mouths just because we got an Ankagh Hayastan….I don’t know Karekin..When I think you can’t surprise us anymore, you do the opposite and hit us with comments that just leaves me in shock all over again..
I tell myself many times over not to click “Submit” every time I read your comments but chi statsvum..
Gayane
I can’t believe I am doing this…
Well, it’s a sticking point for me because I’ve heard and read the same things from Armenians all my life…and very little seems to have changed in the overall attitude. We now have an azad Hayastan…but, no one seems satisfied by that….
Karekin, thank you for responding to my question. I am trying very sincerely to get into your head space to understand where you are coming from. I don’t know why or how you manage it, but through some mental gymnastics of your own I think you just don’t feel the moral outrage that others feel about the barbarity in which our homelands, treasures, antiquities, ancestors, etc., were taken from us. More power to you for focusing on supporting RA. No one disagrees with this.
But how can you really expect much to change in the attitude of Armenians when not much substantive has yet changed in regard to the resolution of the Armenian question and Turkey? True, interesting and hopeful developments are occurring in some circles in Turkey today and time will tell if these amount to anything for Armenia. And true, we have a free Armenian Republic, though it struggles to survive between its unneighborly neighbors. But 95 years is a blip in the full scope of our history and not nearly long enough for the collective memory of our homeland or of the trauma that separated us from it to fade from Armenian consciousness. Your detachment from this consciousness is what puzzles me. I have my theories…
You fail to acknowledge that supporting RA and fighting for justice for the 1.5 million victims are not mutually exclusive. To me, it’s a question of balance. Both are important, co-exist and are interdependent. One effects the other.
I’ll say it one more time: try to reserve some of the empathy that you encourage others to have for the Turks for your fellow Armenians, recognizing the burden for their ancestors that they shoulder. We are all healing from a traumatic event in our own ways and at our own pace; and we need each others support, not criticism. Patience, Karekin, patience.
To: Boyajian & Karekin
Once again you have said what is required to Karekin…with love and compassion for our brother Karekin. He is not the enemy and we are not all insane! Insane people would not be in this forum.
And I believe, that even if we disagree, with each other, we still need to remain united and still love (yes, Karekin included) our brothers-and-sisters no matter what! Like the soldiers in the Artsakh war “they said (sitting on a tank) to an interviewer, when he asked why the boys were not elsewhere, but fighting the enemy…they said….for 3,000 years we have defended our lands…if we don’t do it… now, who then will defend our lands?” Actually, Artsakh won simply because the people had a reason to fight-&-win. The Talish, Pakistani, Afghan, mercenaries had no reason to fight, but pehaps a few $ of pay, to fight an unknown enemy, to regain lands that didn’t belong to them in the first place! So we, are fighting a moral-and- justice war; and we will win because we have reason to struggle to win! Baykar, baykar, minchev verch!
We also know that many many who call themselves Turks are also our brothers- and-sisters due to our ancestors being stolen to be Turkified!. DNA survey would be very intereesting! The Turks wanted to ‘build-a-nation’ no matter what it took! They went about it the wrong way, but that was done.
The hurt is so deep rooted that we feel “righteous indignation” 24/7. We don’t hate the enemy and we do not resort to violence. We just want what is right and fair! We are to ‘be angry, yet do not sin in our anger’…this is righteous indignation! No one says it is easy to ‘love our enemy, feed them, offer them water, shelter etc.’ as needed. This is a commandment to us yet it is hard to understand and live with. How does one be a doctor or nurse to a soldier who has just murdered their family? NOT EASY!
Let’s continue with our dialogue with respect for each other!
G
To say that I don’t have empathy or deep feelings regarding the losses of the genocide would be just crazy. However, as the saying goes, you can drag a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. We can only change ourselves and, we have to live today, not yesterday and certainly not use our energies to mourn the loss that came 1000+ years ago. If that were the case, then Armenians would be the most endlessly depressed people on earth….they were incessantly invaded, occupied and conquered…by more than just the Seljuks and the Ottomans….try all the others…the Persians, the Greeks, the Mongols, the Russians…where does it end? Are you planning to get justice from all of them too? The point is that it’s an endless effort….the Buddhists call it the ‘hungry ghost’…that can never be satisfied. No one – and certainly not me – is saying to abandon genocide recognition efforts….but to ask people today to be in mourning for historic losses that go back almost 3000 years is a bit tough to swallow, especially when there are living people suffering every day in Armenia right now! Actively do something to help them! They need our help, your help more than anyone from the past who can never be recovered. Yes, have your memories and remembrances, but don’t forget there is an Armenia today that needs your help in a big way. That should be your focus…more than anything.
To: Karekin
Thank you for your reminding all re the current situation in the RA. I have an uncle (my father’s youngest, now 82 y/o?) who has been to the RA 3 times now. He tells my mom how wonderful things are in Armenia. But does he actually go to the poverty stricken areas? e.g. Gyumri? and other places? I doubt it.
Most of us can’t relocate to the RA due our age and circumstances. And to the wide corruption in the place. I am not sure exactly how we can help….that is if we have the means to help?
You may have some comments to my questions? Thank you.
G
Karekin, it will help living Turks and living Armenians to have the truth recognized. You minimize the drive that powers the passion for truth. The empathy that I suggested you lack was for your fellow living Armenians who are filled with this passion and who struggle for the truth today.
You also treat the events of a century ago as past tense while others experience it as ongoing and refuse to passively accept the continued assault from the Turkish State’s denial of the truth. This is a matter of perspective and you have every right to yours.
There is much you write that I agree with and I would gladly stand with you in support of Armenians in Armenia. But I can’t swallow your condescension in preaching futility to fellow Armenians with whom you disagree. You mock fellow Armenians when you refer to the various invaders and conquerors throughout our history and ask if we would demand justice from them as well. The situations are not comparable. The struggle with Turkey today is not an effort to get even because of years of subjugation, but a righteous refusal to allow a nation to attempt to exterminate a people and than benefit from the action. Should genocides go unrecognized and unpunished? Of course not! It only makes it easier for it to happen again and again, as we have seen.
There is a need for those among us who work to promote the welfare of the Republic of Armenia, but there is also a need for those who carry on the struggle for justice, on behalf of all mankind. As I said previously, these efforts are not mutually exclusive.
You can’t lump all those who fight for justice together as angry and hateful Armenians. This is a false characterization of good people who base their struggle on a universal sense of morality and respect for human dignity.
Yes it’s true, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. And it is also true that beating a dead horse won’t make him get up and go. Now can we both agree to ride out on the horses we came in on?
Karekin.. you are hopeless..
I don’t know if you are not reading what we are saying here or you are simply ignoring what is being said but you toot your own horn over and over.. with the same beat… same tactics and same feeling toward your fellow Armenians..
Gary says we need to love and respect each other including you because we are Armenians… I agree with him and will continue to do so… but you are making it really hard..
Gayane
The point is that it’s an endless effort….the Buddhists call it the ‘hungry ghost’…that can never be satisfied
this is an example of idiotic, impoverished judgment on every Armenian who cares about truth. It is disgusting to read your spin about “3000” years.
Here’s something to look forward to in the “new Turkey” – a real investigation
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/04/30/dink-family-attorneys-demand-thorough-investigation/
Let’s see if it happens, eh Karekin? Or will you call that, too, past history? Maybe you can make Nazi-like theories about it too. How can you quote Buddhism with your anti-Semitic provocations here?
Karekin, you are a careless and inattentive reader plus you are curiously inconsistent in the numbers you throw around regarding Armenian history and the years of subjugation by conquerors and invaders. You are dancing around with the facts again and anyone who tries to follow your lead will find their heads spinning. Engaging in dialogue with you is what appears to be futile.
I am as guilty as anyone else here of entertaining, and thus fueling, your incessant diasporan Armenian-bashing. Let’s all just move on.
To: Boyajian
Thank you for your wise & just words to our brother Karekin. Has Karekin asked Jesus for forgiveness for his inappropriate words?
G
Yes, I’ve seen and read what many of you have said here, but if you expect me to sign on for an endless monologue of anger and hate, I can’t and won’t do it. Sorry. I’ve already said that many times here. Change the program, change the message…maybe you will see different results, otherwise, get used to your own unproductive anger. But as I have said, banging on someone’s door over and over again w/ the same message, no matter how true it might be, won’t get that person to open the door to you. What about that do you not understand? If Khatchig had arrived in Ankara screaming like a madman, do you think anyone would listen? Get real, please. If you want your message to be heard, you must change the method.
I feel there’re still innocent children in this site.
Repeating ‘Jesus loves me yes I know’
Calling Jesus to save us!
I wonder which century we are in
To pray for Jesus and his gene.
Because of Jesus we were killed
Because of Jesus we could not defend our selves
Because of Jesus we were pushed to deserts
Because of Jesus we could not carry a gun
Giving our neck to our enemies.
If we believe in the same style
We will be still massacred and die
We believe in something doesn’t exist
And we shout on our enemies to save us.
What naive people we are!
You people have no idea who I am or what you’re even talking about regarding me, so please contain your arrogance and propagandistic statements. If you care to have an intelligent discussion, fine, but demanding things of someone you don’t know is just plain ridiculous. I am probably older than all of you combined, have more degrees and academic training and have a familial connection to the Dashaktsutiun that goes back a hundred years, but that has not closed my mind to new ideas and approaches to the world. Far from it.
I can’t believe I’m doing this, Karekin, but you are an Armenophobic and utterly cynical, disrespectful person, I come to believe. If not for some of your skewed views, you are disliked for hiding as a coward from apologizing for insulting Lord Jesus. I can imagine what hysteria you’d whip up had any of us insulted prophet Mohammad. Several commentators here demanded that you apologize for insulting their religious feelings and you, the one who considers himself an intelligent, worldly-wise, mature, and pacifistic person, have never done so. If not for some of your superficial, detached from reality, views, you should be ashamed of yourself for this misdemeanor …
Religious fanatics are all very much the same no matter who they revere…..and while the essence of most religions tends to be peaceful (at least according to what they preach) they have all caused as much damage and human suffering in the world as anyone else, if not more. I have nothing to be ashamed of…but they certainly do. Anyone who causes human suffering…no matter what the belief system, is a criminal in my book.
Karekin, you sound angry.
Sylva – It is my faith that teaches me to continue to tell the truth, no matter what it means. Without Christ and those who have followed him, I would not have this inspiration. It is not Christ who murdered us. Don’t put the blame where it doesn’t belong.
I’m not a religious person, young man, least of all am I a fanatic person, but I consider myself a faithful person. Are you capable of appreciating the difference between religious fanatism and faithfulness/spirituality or you need to be educated on this, too? Do I also need to remind you that in the civilized world, to which you claim to belong, any insults of religious nature are inappropriate? This has nothing to do with religions preaching peace, but causing damage. You insulted Jesus Christ, who preached Peace and Love, and never damaged anyone, but was brutally damaged himself and ultimately crucified for our sins, and YOUR sins, too. Is he a criminal in your(?!) book? Isn’t this insult of yours not enough to be ashamed of?
Saint Gomidas Is My Faith
We are Born Armenians.
Are born with Natural Faith.
Do any one of you think before Christianity
We never possessed faith!
Faith is gene born with Us
And flairs with our arts.
We don’t believe in Slavery
Neither birthed to Slay.
Christianity did not teach us how to behave
Kindness and care born with us.
Our faith is Gomidasian
He is the only human
Who invented immortal hymns
For us and for all faiths,
Who can understand his inner gait.
His ‘Sharagans’ are my faith
And no one can him replace.
He is an Armenian Saint
I am birthed from his genes
And I bend my knees
And for him sing and praise.
I believe only in him
Because I can see him
And hear his voice in my dreams
In my Soulful-Hart *no one
Can take his place.
You will anwer
Because Gomidas was Christian
My answer is:
Because he genes birthed from mother Armenian
Before he knew what Christianity meant.
Saint Gomidas Is My Faith
and not Jesus
Whom I never met!
____________________________
*Hart: Heart ; Lyrical with one syllable
From the book ‘Lance My hart at a Glance’
What you all seem to ignore is something that is a key element of Armenian religious teaching…that God is actually in you..not floating in the clouds somewhere. So, treat every human being with respect. It is not about books or famous personages, it is about humanity. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Plain and simple. I really don’t see that happening here. That said, someone alot more famous said something brilliant a long time ago, that religion is the opiate of the masses. And, I for one, do not do drugs and have no need for drugs. But, that is all beside the point….if you believe Armenians were murdered for religious reasons, then you obviously don’t understand that the majority were saved by Muslim Arabs and Persians. That’s where your theory falls flat. If it were not for caring Muslims, most Armenians in the Middle East would have perished completely.
You must be suffering from a fundamental psychological and personality problem. In addition to that, you seem to be a very obdurate and inattentive person. You disregard the point in one’s view that you feel uncomfortable about and deliberately jump to irrelative rhetoric. You must be either a careless person or have some characteristics of schizophrenia, i.e. abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality. Or it might be just an old ‘good’ tactics of turning everything on its head.
If ‘treating every human being with respect’ is indeed your guideline, you wouldn’t offend the most sensitive feelings that human beings have, that is, the ones related to their faith. By having insulted Jesus and not apologizing for misdemeanor, you demonstrate what essentially disreputable person you are. And the one with offbeat reasoning, too. What does Karl Marx’ quote re: religion has to do here? Besides, Marx put a completely different meaning in it. And where on earth has anyone made a comment ‘if you believe Armenians were murdered for religious reasons?’ Where in the comments above have you seen anyone presenting a ‘theory’ about Armenians being saved by Arabs and Persians so you denounce it as ‘flat’? Has anyone here ever touched upon this subject? On the contrary, it is the fact that Armenians are thankful for and always demonstrate to the Turks that they have no problems with the Muslims, they have problems with the Turkish state.
P.S. It was not the ‘majority’ of the Armenians that was saved by Muslim Arabs and Persians. It was the remaining minority of the survivors of the genocide. The majority has been slaughtered in cold blood by your Turkish brethren.
Sylva – I appreciate your thoughts about Komitas but as a Vartabed I believe that he would tell you that you are wrong.
Karekin, your thoughts grow more and more contradictory. More to the point, they create things out of thin air that nobody said here in order to make new accusations about what Armenians think. Distracted and anarchic is now the feeling. And there is no denying the fact that those who converted avoided death by doing so. As for the continued Zionist conspiracy nonsense, that just proves you contradict your own words about how people should behave. Oh the poor duped Sultan. And the majority of the posters here feel that you are not doing what you preach at all, but you just don’t listen.
Sorry, Sylva – I wish to clarify something.
I agree entirely that Christ must live in those who exemplify his teachings today, here and now. In that you are entirely right in my opinion when you speak about Komitas in the way that you do. I was just saying that in terms of “worship” he would tell us he was not God for worshiping, but would point to Christ & Father & Spirit. We understand the love in Komitas.
I have not yet read Balakian’s translation of his uncle’s book. I have it, but I have yet to take it on, and its inclusion of Komitas’ days of genocide and destruction
My friends, you all appear sincere in your efforts to converse with someone who is not dealing fairly with you. You have usually made your points respectfully. You have tried to clarify that you are not an angry hater of Turks but a staunch hater of injustice; one who feels emboldened by their faith and morality to take a stand against genocide because no nation should benefit from such inhuman acts. Despite the many times you have asserted your admiration for Turks who have bravely begun to confront the truth, as well as asserted that your struggle is against the denialist Turkish government not the Turkish people (who have been lied to and misinformed), you are continually berated for your “anger and hatefulness.” In addition, you have been accused of being obsessed with a futile cause and having a callous disregard for Armenia and its citizens.
There is a serious disconnect here. The person you are addressing is either incapable of taking in and processing new information or is deliberately spewing his own form of hate and anger onto anyone who will entertain him. This person’s motives are not clear, but he is a squacking parrot, stuck on his point and unable to move off of it, no matter how much new evidence he is offered. It is quite disturbing and I myself have been taken in by the what appears on the surface to be a reasonable person’s thoughts only to later realize that there is no mutually respectful exchange of ideas happening here. With every response you offer, you are only providing a vehicle for another illogical barrage of accusations. You don’t have to defend yourself against unfounded accusations by someone who doesn’t know you and won’t or can’t hear or comprehend what you are saying.
Boyajian, you’re right – as well as others who have said the same thing.
I take responsibility for my part in this! On the other hand, there are issues raised that I thought needed to be addressed, that were ways of throwing mud on our whole community… but your point is well-taken. It’s better if we have a good and useful dialogue among ourselves. Although I do agree with someone else who posted that the replies were also useful if only to bring up new information in response . Several people’s responses have informed me about things I did not know about before. But to all of you with constructive aims in mind, I send my thanks and embrace!
PS Boyajian et al,
I read Sassounian’s article here about being co-opted. I just wonder if we are not seeing a little bit of the next phase of this struggle for recognition, now that it perhaps seems inevitable to some.
Janine, ’tis curious and curiouser!
I totally agree that our conversations with Karekin were not without benefit. I have thoroughly enjoyed the level of passion and intelligence I have read in so many of the comments. I only mean to point out the lack of mutuality on his part. He has his agenda and does not really care what others think. As I have said, he made many interesting and thought-provoking points, but they always got obscured by his incessant rant about angry and hateful Armenians and unwarranted accusations about commentators on this forum. We could have had an informative exchange of ideas regarding how the diaspora could be helpful to Armenia or more encouraging of dialogue with Turks, but even when asked directly and given the opportunity to say more about his ideas, he offered no substance and reverted to berating. I don’t pretend to understand what is behind all of it, but I don’t want to play the game any more. It feels very dishonest.
Boyajian.. you hit the bull’s eye…
Janine– it was me who said that even though we enterain this human being named Karekin, I learned alot from reading the comments going back and forth.. I am guilty of contributing to the matter but like my sister, I could not just stand on the sidelines and not say something. However, I learned alot from this.. Shat shat mesi Janine jan for always providing strong and valid arguments..I enjoy reading them..
That goes to Boyajian, Karo and others .. Thank you all.. Because of you, I am more informed about alot of things… Yes.. it is true that i speak mostly with passion and feelings… but I have you all fine people to do more the factual writing and I thank you for it..:)
Gayane
Boyajian – understood! Thanks to you, Gayane and all parties
A propos to creating a “softer” image in light of inevitable recognition, changing world politics of the moment, I want to share an article someone else sent to me
http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg317756.html
ANKARA ALLEGEDLY THWARTS ALIYEV ATTACK ON KARABAKH
Asbarez
Tuesday, May 4th, 2010
ANKARA-Ankara has neither confirmed nor denied claims that Turkey’s
intelligence agency prevented an Azeri military attack ordered by
Azeri president Ilham Aliyev on Nagorno-Karabakh immediately before
Turkey and Armenia signed historic protocols last year, reported the
Turkish daily, Hurriyet.
I think possibly this shows a deliberate softening of public image of policy. IMO no doubt from the need to seem fully engaged in protocols interest from outside pressure. Anyway, it’s a theory. We should be prepared for this phase
This was an interesting article with a good discussion at the end; however, from the outside looking in, it does appear that Karakekin as a person is being attacked and criticized, rather than his ideas. Even if his points are controversial or we are in disagreement with him, that does not mean that he is better or worse than anyone else. In order to move forward, many controversial topics have to be addressed head-on. The spirit of division is the achilles heal of all of us as Armenians, although conversely it enables extraordinary successes at a individual, family, or ‘tribal’ level. Look at the U.S. example – two political group, two churches, two youth organizations, etc.. To me, an Armenian is someone who feels Armenian and works for the betterment of Armenians, even if they convereted to Hinduism, married an odar (who can be ‘converted’ to honorary Armenian status :). With that in mind, our number one goal should be two work for a viable Armenian state which means permenant access to the sea and into regional projects, which will eventually lead to a reversal of the mass emigration over the past several years. Karekin is correct in that our demands will have a higher chance of success if we have a truly UNITED front, because our goals are the same even though our methods on achieving them are different. Finally, as to the Genocide conspiracy theories, even if the 3 pashas were secretly ARMENIAN, it would still be the Armenian Gencoide committed by the Ottoman Empire. Like it or not, the gerenal population, as d-ked as they were, were in the majority eager to carry out the genocide, so the ethnicity of 3,10,or 100 of the leaders is irrelevant, the population would not have supported it if they didn’t share the same attitude against Armenians. (i.e. if Obama tried to deport all the Mexicans tommorow with no food or water, I doubt that the average American would be sharpening his blade and eyeing the neighbor’s daughter as his future wife). I think we should be debating all points, even controversial ones, such as reparations (which should include a handout of a family tree to everyone in Turkey) – and the means with which we can strengthen our common bond and move away from articifical divisions. Thank you.
A Robert Fisk interview on CTV:
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/armenians-past/#clip293663
Right….people here attack me relentlessly as non-Armenian, implicating my ‘Turkish’ brethren, etc, etc, etc. despite my revealing my family history, and I’m the one who has issues? Please. The level of discourse here has underwhelmed me, largely for the knee-jerk reactions of poorly or uninformed people who think they know it all. Arrogance about ‘common knowledge’ is very revealing about those who adopt that kind of position… especially when it comes to the lack of real knowledge or an academic understanding of facts. There is alot of information about the genocide that Armenians can and should learn, much of it hidden for 95 years, because knowledge – no propaganda – is power. Open your minds people, and don’t think you know it all because you’ve attended a rally along the way. There is so much more to be revealed and yes, some of it may be uncomfortable to hear, but the untarnished truth will set us (and the Turks) all free.
To: Karekin
We all should be more gentle to each other. Yes, including to Karekin even if we do not all agree with each other. That is because we are brothers-&-sisters and we believe in what is right & just! There were traitors, yes Armenians, on 24 April 1915 who helped the Constantinople Police to make a list of those to be arrested. Are we like them? Like the Jewish people say “G-d forbid!” We cannot be divided even if we disagree! W e agree to disagree but remain united for the Hye Tad!
Now, Karekin if you have made inappropriate remarks (I have not read them personally, but have faith in the others here) regarding Jesus…please be man enough to apologize and ask the Lord for forgiveness. If you can’t do this, than how can we continue to dialog with you? There are things that are fundemental and needed to happen here. You seemed to have p$$d some people off! Just like you expect people to be open minded…they/we expect you to be open hearted ! You know confession of sins is very liberating! DO IT MAN! Others will gain confidence in your character! And Jesus will surely forgive you!
G
Armen, for the past week at least we have been hearing more and more misleading, misdirecting comments that only focus slander on all the Armenian community and also espouse anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. I will no longer read Karekin’s remarks because I think with experience they will only be more “scrambling” remarks which have the effect of destroying dialogue and leading us off the subject, stating preposterous ideas that are designed throw a monkey wrench into the things we all know so that we don’t really talk about what is real here.
Focusing on helping Armenia in no way is telling us that we are all only full of hatred over and over again, offending everyone in the process, espousing hate theories that are fully preposterous and discredited (which are in fact very bad if they reflect on the Armenian community as a whole – and I believe whether deliberate or not this is a serious matter). End of story.
Armen, I agree with your notion that one can be Armenian regardless of their religion.
Speaking for myself, I apologize if I offended Karekin or anyone else with my comments on this site. I agree with others and have said myself that there is a place for all viewpoints here. Mature and intelligent people should be able to disagree and carry on in a respectful way. However derogatory remarks about Christ and religion in general are inflammatory, even if it is one’s honest opinion. In addition, I find it impolite to complain ad nauseum about Armenians being hateful and angry especially when responding to numerous comments that were neither and that took pains to demonstrate the opposite. Further, when this inconsistency was respectfully challenged, it was ignored.
Boyajian,
My main point is that given our losses in the Genocide and assimilation, it is vital to be as inclusive as possible, given that there are likely more Armenians today who are unaware of the fact who are actually Muslim. The reason that the figures in the death toll of the Genocide vary is because the total of killed and MISSING is likely over 1.5 million, but that figure includes 1/4 to 1/3 of the total who were very young or attractive females who were forcibly married and / or converted. In my family alone, there were 14 LOSSES, but it included 4 women who were ‘married’ to Kurds and Turks in 1915 (i.e. I have 25-30 second cousins who are partly Armenian part Turkish / Kurdish and who are Muslim – some have gone on to become generals in the Turkish Air Force). I think reparations should also focus on education this group about their origins and they should be free to choose the religion of their choice, once they are fully informed. Incidentally, my parents met some of their first cousins and even took them to an Armenian church but they chose to stay with the religion they were raised in, even though their mother ‘convereted’ at the age of 16. To me, if Turks are sincere, they should DESIRE to implement justice and essentially, recognize the terrible actions of their forebears (remember 1915 is not 2010 – with life expectancy at 40 years of age, and death even from pneumonia or appendicitis was >90% – life had much less value) and by necessity, make our nation whole. An apology empty of anything tangible is insincere. If someone is genuinally sorry for doing something, they will want to make it up to you, both in personal and national terms. If I crash my friend’s car, and say ‘sorry’ but don’t offer to pay – it is clearly insincere, to give a trivial example. The Turks can utilize any word they like, but the concept of apology and reperations does not change at all we call it race extermination, wholesale ethnic cleansing, Medz Yeghern, or the proper term, the Armenian Genocide. Thanks
Armen K, interesting points, especially about reparations. Glad we are talking in dialogue here on relevant subjects
Hye dserooke tsoobe tserin lalov khentroomer “Hayreniki azadootyun desnel” yev april.
Armen,
I agree with Janine and Boyajian full heartedly.
We have repeatedly told Karekin that his thoughts and statements/comments were made to stir the pot… and we repeatedly told him that Armenians are not an agry and hateful mobs but it seemed like Karekin permanently closed his eyes and ears to us and our comments……..As we said in the past, Karekin is definitely an enigma… and to this day he never replied to numerous questions that many of us asked about if he shares the same passion, brotherly love and friendship/respect, to forget and forgive, to have patience for each other with Turks on Turkish sites… No reply.. No peep out of him…What does that tell us???? One thing and one thing only: Karekin (no matter how much we may think he is working for the betterment of Armenia) will never have the successful track record that he is soooo passionately tries to shower us with.. if he continues the bashing of his fellow Armenians… Not going to happen…
He is and will remain the black sheep in my book.. I am sorry.. (even though he definintely frustrated alot of us, listening to Gary M’s advice, I will continue to love him as my fellow Armenian but I am not going to accept his insults and misguided comments).. He has done too much damage and continues to do so (as he posted some new comments that are just …agghhhh…frustrating)…. for us to take him seriously…
Gayane
By ignoring the caged canary in the mine, all the miners died. Choosing ignorance over the facts of history is very dangerous. Think outside the box….please….because there is often more information outside than inside. Repeating pat phrases without thought is something done by parrots, not humans. Think about who is actively taking big money from Turkey to suppress information about the genocide, working the halls of congress to suppress recognition, feeding lies to politicians on a daily basis….it’s not me, people..it’s not me.
Nothing will change my posture on an individual by the name Karekin. I came to believe he is an Armenophobic, utterly xenophilic, and essentially disrespectful person. I’m strong-willed enough to apologize for these and other unpleasant words ONLY if he finds courage and extends apologies for derogating Lord Jesus Christ. Until then, I’d better continue exchanging views with a Turk SG than with a shur tvats Armenian like Karekin. Other offenses notwithstanding, I take insults of faith and sacred relics as a demonstration of an offender’s level of decency and intellectual maturity.
Armen, your point to be inclusive of Armenians who no longer identify as Armenian due to a forced conversion on a grandparent during the genocide is an interesting one. It also highlights the tragic effect of the genocide that reverberates to the present day. There is no question in my mind that once Turkey accepts responsibility for these events, that reparations must follow. As you said, otherwise the acknowledgment is a hollow act. These are moral and legal matters and must be addressed as such, for the good of all mankind.
I don’t put much stock in the Jewish conspiracy theory suggested by some. I think the planners of the Genocide were guilty of two of the oldest pitfalls known to man: pride/arrogance and the love of money (and the power that comes with it). This also goes for the countries that aided and abetted and tolerated the Genocide deniers since then. These are pitfalls that all humans are vulnerable to—they are not exclusive to any race or nationality. Even Armenians. For this reason we (humanity) needs to hold each other accountable. Turkey must acknowledge its fault and make amends.
Also,
Broadly speaking, a Christian, a Jew, or a Muslim who plans and participates in mass killings is not a true member of either of those faiths, despite the manipulation of a sentence or two taken out of context from the respective religious texts. For example, Hitler and the Nazi leadership were ‘Christian’ but few people believe they acted according to their faith, to say the least. The quoting of biblical or Koranic verses written 1000, 2000, or 4000 years ago, calling for destruction of an opposing group AT THAT TIME, and using that to justify genocide and mass murder in the 20th century borders on insanity, and is a tragic reminder that we haven’t advanced that far from the days of the cavemen. The people who use that to commit mass crimes are psychopaths and sociopaths who use it as a cover to hide the fact that they want to destoy another group to steal their wealth and women, and act upon their own defects. In the end, humanity is part of the animal kingdom, even though we are at the top of the food chain, the capability for destruction is ingrained in every human being, which is why most people are stimulated by violence (positive or negative). All three religions have had leaders who abuse and continue to abuse the religion. The neo-cons, for example, were motivated by Biblical prophecy written thousands of years ago. It is shocking that so many of our ‘leaders’ use the bible to justify slaughter, in essence they are acknowledging that humanity was wiser 3000 years ago, when they worshipped fire, ate their hunted prey raw, and died from a skin infection. If someone thought 2000 years ago that destroying Babylonia would lead to the final judgement and the re-apperance of Christ and the destruction of the world, should that be used as a basis of geo-political strategy in the U.S. for example? People who do so are similar to pagans, because they are violating the #1 commandment of Judeo-Christianity – which states ‘thou shall not kill’ and there is no asterisk in the 10 commandments, last I checked.
Who or what is the caged canary in this situation?
Moderators and fellow commentators –
At a certain point in this discussion an outright religious insult has been allowed to be posted, and I can see it has understandably enraged several commentators here. Since this article is the most commented one (roughly 500(!) comments), I imagine Karekin’s derogatory words addressed to Jesus Christ might have just slipped moderators’ attention. I don’t believe that their editorial policy allows such despicable phrases. Can you imagine what moderators on a Turkish site would do had any Armenian, or any Christian, would allow a repulsive word for prophet Mohammed?
Several commentators demanded that Karekin apologize for the misdemeanor, but from comment to comment he turns a blind eye on their demand. In one of his remarks he even said that he had ‘nothing to be ashamed of.’
I’d like to suggest to the moderators, and listen to commentators’ opinions in this regard, to temporarily ban Karekin’s comments until he apologizes for hurting our religious feelings. Again, such comments shouldn’t have been allowed at all, but I understand that human mistakes are inevitable in this heavily commented article.
What do you think?
A
Thousands of Turks, Kurds and others were responsible for carrying out the order to remove, transport and forcibly deport the Armenians to their eventual death. No secret cadre of anti-Armenian Ottoman Jews could accomplish this task without the explicit cooperation, collusion and participation of the general population (of course there were exceptions!) who at the very least turned their eyes away from the travesty being done “for the good of the nation”. It is conspiratorial nonsense to imagine otherwise.
“Think outside the box….please….because there is often more information outside than inside… Think about who is actively taking big money from Turkey to suppress information about the genocide, working the halls of congress to suppress recognition, feeding lies to politicians on a daily basis…
What are your suggestions? What should Armenia/Armenians do? Be constructive or you are just stirring the pot.
To: Anahit
Yes, you have said wise words here about apology to come from our brother Karekin. If he doesn’t apologize then he should be ‘suspended’ just like schoolboy!
Did you know that the only ‘female’ in the Bible is ‘wisdom’? Wisdom is referred to by ‘she’. Almost all others are ‘he’.
So you have now had the wisdom to ask for this aplogy and if it doesn’t happen…then we are to let Karekin suffer the consequences! He has acted like a schhoolboy!
G
Lady Anahit
Any one can change his religion
To become what you believe in
But can any one inherit Armenian genes!
I can never forget, when I met Prof. James Tanner who was the first to invent the ‘Growth Charts’ or as American call it Scales in Peadiatrics in United Kingdom with most complicated mathematics.
He said to me, “I have inherited my broad chin and my math genes from my maternal grandfather who was a banker in Istanbul.”
If he did not tell me, I would have never knew that he had Armenian genes, he was proud of, he said because I said, “I am Armenian” without asking my religion.
Please read about Armenian Muslims; Hemsin/ Hemshin/Hamshinli and see their dances in Y-tubes. Inform and write …if they look Armenians or not.
Dear Gary,
In the Armenian bibles
We don’t have he or she,
So our wisdom is a real wisdom neither she nor he!
Our religion is Armenian before Christianity,
So don’t behave
Like Protestants or Seventh Adventist,
We should believe in our Domes as our arts and Khachkars
If we like we can add Christianity,
Christian crusaders are many
We don’t want to join in their slaying history.
We neither can possess slaves no commit slayery!
Say what Vahan Tekian said,
“Yegeghezen Hygagan genentaviern a Hokvouis”
________________________________________
* slayery: new word in my Glossary to be confirmed soon.
Personally,
I am against any type of ‘ban’ or restriction on Karekin. I have read most of his comments, and I did not personally feel offended as he is stating his own beliefs and as I am confident in mine, it has no bearing. We do not know him, his life, his choices, etc.. to judge him on any basis, and last I checked, there is a biblical quote referring to this, judge not lest you be judged. I am sure many Armenians in the generation following the genocide questioned their faith as well, because what type of Christian God would allow the first Christian nation to be exterminated and also be repressed for hundreds of years?
Sure, Karekin has raised some controversial points, and no one said the topic of the Armenian genocide is easy to discuss and asssimilate in terms of knowledge, because it forces us, as survivors, to feel the echoes of the trauma they experienced, and to face the immense cruel and destructive nature that exists in everyone.
So, I invite anyone into the discussion, even outright denialists, because their denial doesn’t hurt me, it only shows us that the denier is either uneducated, brainwashed by an effective state apparatus, or racist / sociopathic. Either way, it is an issue for the denialist to overcome and to notice that they have had an oligarchical military dictatorship for 80 years with minimal rights – and that they have been told the earth is flat for 90 years, but it has been a sphere all along. If every Turk and Kurd spent an hour researching the background of their great grandmother or Aunt, it would probabl y suprise a great number, in which case, as a Turk, they would have to reject their own grandmother as propaganda – the number is much higher than commonly tought, I believe, but obviously there is no data to back that up, just a feeling in my gut which returns to my main point – if you feel Armenian, are helping the Armenian cause or Armenia itself, then I would include them in the Armenian ‘tent’ even if they worshipped nothing or were into fire worship; Their worship of fire is irrelevent to me, as long as they want to help their fellow Armenian. To me, the number #1 issue – and the rea l tragedy of the Genocide was the loss of the the children and grandchildren who never were and the grandchildren and children of the abducted, who deny the genocide, and in essence denying the source of their existence. Repartions will only follow after the population a little more aware that the CUP was not carrying out a ‘heroic’ defense against mass Armenian rebellions, but were killing innocent civilians, as a GOAL. Recognition will come only when the generals and leaders in the Army start believing what is in their own militray documents, and pass a new article 3o1, where insulting Armenianness would be criminal
Gary, Sylva is right regarding the neutral pronoun with respect to God but we do pray “Our Father…” As far as the gender of “wisdom” I will have to check in church tomorrow.
Correction: Gary I meant to say that the Armenian Bible is gender neutral with respect to the Holy Spirit.
Armen K,
The issue is fundamentally different from whether you, or anyone else, for that matter, personally felt offended by Karekin’s beliefs that he’s free to state or whether you may be confident in your own beliefs.
The issue is that, based on editorial policies of this website, insults of someone’s faith or religious relics are prohibited. This is the most commented article and I sense moderators could have overlooked a disgraceful remark by Karekin: “[Jesus is] some carpenter from Nazareth with his magic tricks.” You personally may not feel offended by this despicable phrase, but many commentators here, who consider themselves followers of Jesus Christ, did feel offended. When they demanded an apology from Karekin, he hid his head in a hole and at one instance replied that he ‘had nothing to be ashamed of.’
Now, I presume you post from a part of a civilized world. How many times have you seen in the West that insulting religious feelings goes without impunity?
Karekin’s controversial points that reflect upon his beliefs were argued against in these pages at length, but the one insulting our Lord and Savior was outrageous. If he were a bit more compassionate and erudite, he’d understand at the time of making such a remark that it might be perceived not as his personal belief, but, rather, as an outright insult. Therefore, ‘judge not lest you be judged’ is, I’m afraid, not applicable here. Noone judged him for his beliefs re: genocide and related subjects. He’s accused for insulting the religious feelings of others.
I am sure many Armenians in the generation following the genocide questioned their faith as well, because what type of Christian God would allow the first Christian nation to be exterminated and also be repressed for hundreds of years?
How can you be sure? When a calamity strikes us or a disaster is befallen us, causing grief and sorrow, Christians are taught to believe that God wants to open our eyes and lead us to something more valuable, even through cruel things. Being an atheist for the most of my life, I experienced a tragedy in my life, after which I’ve become an ardent believer in God and in salvation through Christ. And my lofe has changed cardinally since then. My grandparents, who were tortured and sent to Syrian deserts, miraculously survived and always thanked God for not allowing the whole race to perish. Besides, you seem to forget that Satan strives to become the ruler of this world and calamities are not necessarily the works of God. Deliverance from them is the work of God. ‘And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.’
Cheers,
A
I think even Karekin would agree that way too much energy is spent discussing him on this forum.
Anahit, Armen, and all, I think that it was wrong of Karekin to make such a flippant remark about Christ and than callously disregard those who were offended and asked for an apology. It was at the very least bad form and insensitive. But as he so famously preached earlier…”You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.”
Because of anonymity on sites such as this one, sometimes we can all be tempted to say something that we might think better of if the conversation was being held face to face. I personally wish Karekin would play more fairly and be better about answering direct questions. I think it makes for a better dialogue/discussion when we are willing to expand on our comments. I also wish he would give up the bullhorn on the angry Armenian gripe of his. He made his point on this long ago. But that’s just me and I have also said this enough times.
The other side of this is that Karekin challenges us to re-evaluate what we think we know. This is good for us! It helps us clarify our own beliefs. Of course, he has a point which all reasonable people agree with: You sometimes need to evaluate your tactics and be willing to try new ones when the old ones aren’t working. He might do well to take his own advice on this.
Let’s try to get back to issues of substance related to the Armenian Genocide and focus less on the character of commentators. Armenians come in all shapes and colors and clearly don’t all think alike.
It is time for us to move on because as someone much wiser once said…”Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.”
Since self-depreciating cowards like Karekin will hardly ever apologize for insulting fellow Christian Armenians, but would readily apologize for anything that could remotely hurt the feelings of his beloved Turks who, as he said, treated him better than anyone else in the world, I’d urge everyone in this forum to disregard his comments. Let him talk to himself, hear himself, and contemplate his controversial, defeatist ideas by himself. A phrase comes to my mind that he used when he entered this discussion, addressed to the Armenian commentators: “Look, people, you are all embarrassments(?!)” Well, we now will be by ignoring his comments.
Moderators, since there’s also an element of your inattention, at the very least what you can do is 1) reinstate that any words derogating religions, religious relics, and religious feelings of any commentators here (Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Judaic, etc) are forbidden and will not be posted; and 2) delete from this site the earlier comment made by Karekin (found in older comments here) that contained the despicable words insulting Christ.
A
While interesting, perhaps it would helpf if blatantly religious discussions could move to their own discussion forum somewhere else, as I don’t see this forum as being appropriate. Too many concepts become intertwined that really should not overlap each other, and cause confusion for people, as evidenced in some writings. That said, the Armenian church is fully mobile and can go anywhere…. it is not locked in by stones and mortar. (check w/ your der hayr on that, it’s true). This is what helped Armenians to move so easily to new communities, countries, etc around the globe over the centuries. Nonetheless, I’m sure Khatchig was able to find a very different atmosphere in Turkey than he may have anticipated before going there. I would like to hear more about his impressions and what he learned, because there is alot to learn by going there, especially for those whose last familial connections w/ Turkey may be more than 100 years old.
Armen K – Christ also taught us to beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Yeah, perhaps it would helpful if blatantly Turkophilic discussions, too, could move to their own discussion forum somewhere else…
As if insulting an entire body of people based on their religion (Jewish converts to Islam) isn’t really some sort of religious discussion. That is the whole basis of this conspiracy theory – bigoted by virtue of religious affiliation and conversion
wow… Look who’s suggesting that ‘blatantly religious’ discussions move to their own discussion forum somewhere else. The one who started it all by making a religious insult! And look how he’s trying to camouflage the demand for an apology from several commentators for hurting their religious feelings with a concept that they’re being engaged in religious discussions. Another way to avoid responsibility for a wrong-doing…
To the moderators: I think Anahit’s suggestion to reaffirm the editorial policy regarding derogation of religious beliefs is reasonable. I disagree with the suggestion that blatantly religious discussions move elsewhere. We are free to believe as we wish and to express ourselves and our disagreement with others in a civilized, respectful manner.