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The Hunger Strikes in Turkey: Using One’s Body as a Means of Communication

Life came to a standstill in the Kurdish provinces of Turkey on Oct. 30. Shops and businesses were closed, except for a few bakeries and pharmacies. Buses and other means of public transportation were out of service. Children didn’t go to school.

Oct. 30 marked the 48th day of hunger strikes by Kurdish political prisoners in Turkey—a critical stage for human life, not to mention lasting disabilities. And the government, instead of taking a step toward a peaceful settlement, continued to fuel the conflict by slandering the Kurdish Peace and Democracy Party (BDP).

Protesters in the streets, both in Istanbul and in the Kurdish provinces, were tear-gassed, chased, beaten, and taken into police custody.

Oct. 30 marked the 48th day of hunger strikes by Kurdish political prisoners in Turkey—a critical stage for human life, not to mention lasting disabilities. And the government, instead of taking a step toward a peaceful settlement, continued to fuel the conflict by slandering the Kurdish Peace and Democracy Party (BDP).

At a time when millions of Kurds were waiting for a hopeful sign from the government, Prime Minister Erdogan on Oct. 30 declared that he would not give in to the ongoing “blackmailing [of] the government by deaths in prisons.”

The Kurdish prisoners had begun the hunger strikes on Sept. 12. Their demands: the release of Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Öcalan from solitary confinement; the right of education in Kurdish; and the right to defend themselves in Kurdish during trial.

With new groups joining, the number quickly reached 700, with 8,000 people taking part in hunger strikes outside of prison.

Their demands may seem unusual; they do not, after all, involve an improvement in prison conditions, or the better treatment of inmates. They are more political in nature.

Öcalan’s solitary confinement on Imrali Island in the Marmara Sea continues under even more severe conditions. For 461 days since July 27, 2011, he has not been allowed to see his lawyers, whose formal applications for a visit have been denied for unlawful and nonsensical bureaucratic reasons.

No steps have been taken to resolve the “Kurdish question.” The war in south-eastern Turkey has been going on for 30 years; has claimed some 50,000 lives; has caused the forced evacuation of 3,000 villages, leaving millions homeless and unemployed in nearby towns; and has seen thousands of cases of unsolved murders and missing persons under police/military custody.

No attempt has been made toward a peace-building process by the government; on the contrary, the conflict continues to claim more lives and damage the whole social, political, and economic landscape of Turkey.

The war is not confined to the mountains anymore. It has spread to the cities, and through mass arrests. For the past two years, thousands of human rights activists, municipality workers, lawyers, journalists, intellectuals, students, and trade unionists have been thrown in jail with no solid legal evidence of having committed any offense. The ongoing mass arrests have destroyed the entire setting for a peaceful political struggle by the Kurds and their supporters.

While parliament members have long worked on a new constitution, there’s no indication of any intention to recognize the Kurdish identity as an equal and active part of Turkey’s social and political life.

What’s worse, the government’s language grows more and more insulting when talking about the Kurdish question. The government refuses to enter into any kind of talks with BDP deputies, accusing them of collaborating with the “terrorists.” This, in turn, provokes ultra-nationalist para-military mobs ready to stage lynching attempts in the western provinces of Turkey—which has been happening with greater frequency lately.

BDP deputies are indeed treated like “terrorists” by the police during peaceful demonstrations, where they are beaten, tear-gassed, and hit by pressurized jets of water.

An estimated 10,000 Kurdish prisoners in Turkey, who are denied the right to defend themselves in their mother tongue during trials, are making a call to Turkey and to the world to hear them. They want us to see that they have been left with no choice but to use their own bodies as a means of communication, at the cost of a slow and painful death in the eyes of a totally indifferent Turkish majority.

82 Comments on The Hunger Strikes in Turkey: Using One’s Body as a Means of Communication

  1. avatar john the turk // November 1, 2012 at 12:07 pm // Reply

    Gunaysu
    “”They want us to see that they have been left with no choice but to use their own bodies as a means of communication, at the cost of a slow and painful death in the eyes of a totally indifferent Turkish majority.””

    this is good news indeed

  2. Not surprised at all.. Turkey is not fit to be in modern world.. period..

  3. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 1, 2012 at 4:12 pm // Reply

    THE DAY WILL COME -W/HELP OF GOD ALLMIGHTY-THAT ALL K U R D S, STRWEN OVER PRESENT EASTERN TURKEY WILL EITHER GO ON HINGER STRIKE,AS ABOVE DESCRIBED,OR IN SOME OTHER FASHION DISTURB THE SLUMBER OF THE WORLD DIPLOMACY/GOVT.S AND PEOPLE THAT THESE PEOPLE-SOMETIME HARSHLY SUBBED AS M O U N T A IN T U R K S…NOW FINALLY D I S O B E D I E N T TERRORITS KURDS STAND UP AND THEN THE WORLD WILL LOAN AN EAR …TO THEIR PLIGHT!!!!
    INDEED THAT IS THE TIME WHEN WE A R M E N I A N S WILL ALSO JOIN THEM AND ASK THAT OUR PLIGHT ALSO BE ATTENDED TOO!!!
    FACT IS OURS WILL THEN HAVE PRIORITY TO THEIRS* k u r d s…
    fOR WE ALSO SUFFERED APLENTY IN THE HANDS OF LATTER INSTIGATED BY THE OTTOMAN TURKS/MUSTAFA KEMAL……..
    LET US PRAY TO GOD ALL,MIGHTY THAT THIS OCCURSS SOON!!!!

  4. “The Kurdish prisoners had begun the hunger strikes on Sept. 12. Their demands: the release of Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Öcalan from solitary confinement..”

    If that is their first condition they’ll die of starvation. On a side note, after founding a terrorist organization that has led to over 40,000 deaths, Ocalan had a change of heart in 2005 and submitted 3 proposals for a peaceful solution. In these protocols, that Ocalan wrote, there was a condition that he be released from. Convenient, no?

    Terrorism- those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or, ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

    Seeking to form an independent state is the right of every Kurd and every stateless people worldwide. But does having a righteous goal excuse the senseless acts of violence they’ve committed over the past 30 years? No. Nor does a separatist groups attack mean the whole ethnic group shares their values and beliefs, and does not justify demonizing 20 million of your citizens and subjecting them to indignity upon indignity. And oppression, torture, murder, and so on. But regardless, I don’t see a political solution to the Kurdish problem. It IS, of course, a problem capable of being solved through diplomatic means but when you have an apparent stupidity contest between the two parties, such a means of resolution is, of course, not feasible.

    • With all due respect, a “diplomatic” solution? Is this a matter between Great Powers and the Sick Man of Europe? This is a problem for the Turkish nation, for all Turkey, so one can only speak of a “political” solution. AKP has tried it valiantly. Look what it got them. Besides, there is a Kurdish party already. Look what they have accomplished. Not much will happen unfortunately until Kurds also recognize their “Turkish problem”.

  5. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 1, 2012 at 11:27 pm // Reply

    The Kurdish issue/factor/problem and much more has at its source their desire for independence or at least autonomyu.Latter was to be granted to them by the great powers,after WWI-according to the Treaty of Versailles-but then the powers to be reneged on that and the kurds were left at the mercy of Mustafa Kemal who was dedcided to finish off the pan turanistic or Turkification of the Territoy left to the Ottoman Turkey after defeats on many fronts.Not only in the Balkans and pulling otu of Greeece,Bulgaria etc., but also Enver´s Adeventure in Central Asia or near same. When he was hunged down by a Red Army armenian offices and killed,putting an end to the Triumverate of Talaat Jemal and Enver…the other two ,plus Enver were judged at an Ottoman Turkish Military Tribunal and condmned to deathe as War criminals.However, Mustafa´govt. let them escape conveniently to Europe and malta.But were eventually tracked down by armenian avengers not terrorists and gunnded down.In brief the Armenians completed the Turkish military Tribunals decicions .Read Prof. Vahagn Dadrians book in this respect with FACTS!!!!
    As rgds the k u r d s ….great Turkey may yet suffer quite a bit if it does not come to some sort of arrangement with the 16 million k u r d s within its present territory…it is a menace to them and will continue so .Hopefully some others may intervene and pursuade (like US Senate,viz. re suggesting to them that Armenians´propeerties -beginning with churches,hospitals etc.,-ought to be returtned to legal owners…Armenians!!!
    Thence, it is long way to Tripperary for great Turkey.She either begins to by and by(a bit quicker, rather than slower) take care of those issues,above all if hse desires to enter EU and really make progress.Otherwise by covering up especially our Armenian Genocide issue bodes bad for them.
    I do really trust they will begin with -firstly stopping by instigaating little brother Axeerbaijan- to put pressure on Ra/Artsakh,accept latter´s independece or at least begin to negotiate this time over not only with RA, but also Artsakh/Nagornyii Karabagh independent Gov. as well. There is no other way out.unñless she wishes to continue present status quo and get on with it.

  6. “. It IS, of course, a problem capable of being solved through diplomatic means”

    I think a time to solve the Kurdish problem through diplomacy has passed. First there should be a plebiscite conducted where Turkey’s Kurdish population should be able to choose whether or not they want to remain citizens of Turkey or opt for Independence. If they choose to remain, then the PKK should disarm first and then a Kurdish opening should be conducted where they are given equal rights such as education in their mother tongue and so forth.

    However, if they choose Independence then Turkey should be divided. The Kurds should be given everything east of the Tigris River including Mount Agri. Every Kurd west of the Tigris River should be given six months to move to their new home land and after the six months have passed the Kurds remaining in Turkey should be moved by force if necessary.

    I like most of Turkey’s citizens are tired of this never ending conflict and the governments inability to take bold steps to take the necessary steps to end it once and for all. When gangrene has taken hold of your leg and is threatening the rest of your body, it is best to cut off that leg to save your body.

    • One of the more sensible, forward looking posts by our Turkish guests.
      I too believe there is only one peaceful solution: a nationwide Kurds-only referendum; let all Kurds, and only Kurds, vote for (1) Independence, or (2) Federal-self rule, or (3) remain part of Turkey and become Turks by choice. Without popular support, PKK will wither and die.

      I hope Kurds achieve independence via a peaceful Referendum. If not, they will achieve it by the force of arms and sheer numbers. Kurds in East Asia Minor are multiplying at 2.2X the rate of Turks in West Asia Minor. Kurds will eventually reach 50% of Turkey’s population, and then become majority. One reason PM Erdogan has been running around urging Turks to have at least 3 children.
      If Turks are smart, they will give Kurds Independence and urge all of them to move to their own country.
      Otherwise, Kurds might end up owning most of Turkey.

      And even if Armenians are unable to convince Kurds to give us back Western Armenia or portions thereof, including Mount Ararat, I will not be unhappy: as long as Turks are as far away from RoA as possible. And our chances of achieving an accommodation with Kurds are better than zero. With Turks it is absolute zero. And legally, Kurds’ claim on Western Armenia will be weak: I think we can work out a deal acceptable to both our peoples.

  7. the least our Turkish guests can do is not insult their host, ArmenianWeekly and Armenians, by substituting a non-existent, fake, manufactured, savage Turkic corruption of the Majestic, Biblical, Beautiful name Mount Ararat.

    Mount Ararat.
    Mount Ararat for 5000 years.
    Mount Ararat for another 5000 years, and another…..

    Forever Mount Ararat.

  8. “November 3, 2012

    the least our Turkish guests can do is not insult their host, ArmenianWeekly and Armenians, by substituting a non-existent, fake, manufactured, savage Turkic corruption of the Majestic, Biblical, Beautiful name Mount Ararat”.

    lol, when you own it I’ll call it by whatever you name it, but as long as I don’t need a foreign passport to step on it then I’ll call it Agri.

    • rofl dude:

      I guess you better renew your Turkish passport then and brush up on your Kurdish. If you want to visit Mount Ararat in the near future in independent Kurdistan, you will need a visa. I am guessing Kurds will require citizens of Turkey to fill in the visa in Kurdish – just to make a point: otherwise no visa for you.

      and you better hurry: at the rate Kurds are multiplying, they will take over Turkey all the way to the Bosphorus: you will need a Kurdistan visa to visit Constantinople.

    • Oh and you think it belongs to you ignorant individual? We both know that nothing in Turkey belongs to you so until you create your own instead if stealing from others by murder and Genocide, then you can open your filthy mouth.

    • Tuna, you exhibit a typical Turkish mentality. What does the current ownership of a geographic place have to do with how it’s been called from the times immemorial. Mount Ararat, a sacred mountain for all of the Christianity is called ARARAT from the Biblical times, while Turks appeared on the world map only in the 11th century AD. Since Turks now own Mt. Ararat, it means the historical name of it becomes different? It does not. It has always been and will be Mount Ararat. Constantinople will always be Caonstantinople not Tukified Istanbul. And the Armenian Akhatamar Island will always be Akhtamar not Turkified Akdamar. Don’t you think it is cheap and low to Turkify places that never belonged to the Turks?

    • Mersi John jan. great post

  9. avatar Tuna Tangör // November 6, 2012 at 1:07 am // Reply

    Double lol, tell me this Avery what is the cultural difference bettwen a Turk and a Kurd? Other than language, the cultures are very similar. Same branch of İslam, so even if they become the majority things will be the same. That is why, not granting them full rights is not a threat to national security if it is going to end the conflict.

    • Tuna, you ask the question: “tell me this Avery what is the cultural difference bettwen a Turk and a Kurd”

      Well, you probably know better than I do, because you advocate forcibly moving Kurds East of the Tigris river:

      {“The Kurds should be given everything east of the Tigris River including Mount Agri. Every Kurd west of the Tigris River should be given six months to move to their new home land and after the six months have passed the Kurds remaining in Turkey should be moved by force if necessary.”}

      If there is no difference, how would you decide who is a Kurd to forcibly move them ? Aren’t you contradicting yourself ?
      What do you think: double rofl ?

  10. avatar john the turk // November 6, 2012 at 6:40 am // Reply

    Avery

    Lots of laugh

  11. “Oh and you think it belongs to you ignorant individual? We both know that nothing in Turkey belongs to you so until you create your own instead if stealing from others by murder and Genocide, then you can open your filthy mouth.”

    Is this your ability to debate? The sad thing is, most my adult life I have been reading that Armenians will one day get justice and Turks and Turkey will be punnished for the genocide it committed.

    I have some really sad facts for you Gayene, from where I stand you seem like the barbaric savage that is unable to have a civilized conversation. But I understand, if I was raised with so much hate I would probably behave the same way. Now I do not know if or when Armenians of the diaspora will wake up and see that the only way for them to ever have peace of mind and have Turkey recognize the Armenian genocide is through diaologue, because no matter how many countries recognize it none of them will change their foreign policy towards Turkey and thus make Turkey recognize it. Any recognition will have to come internally and through democratic means. But Armenians will also have to realize, that whatever territory you see as historic Armenia will remain just that. Historic, because these lands are now more of a part of us than whatever imaginary place you have that is in central Asia. And what makes matters ever sadder is, we didn’t even take them from Armenians. Alp Arslan defeated the Byzantine Empire, not some non existing Armenian kingdom to start the colonization of Asia Minor by Turkmens. I really believe, in my lifetime Turkey will recognize the Armenian Genocide, but whatever compensation you have in mind be it territorial or even monetary will never materialize. The biggest reason being no one who committed them is alive today. Now I don’t know whether an apology will be like the one Japan gave to China and South Korea, in that we will apologize and move on or whether it will be more symbolic where we will have a national day of morning every 24 April. But the more I read Armenians views in this website, the more I lose sympathy for Armenians.

    • That’s what I’m saying…

    • Tuna,

      Thanks for your support. While I do not hate Turks, and apologies from individual Turks are highly appreciated, the apology from the Turkish state without compensation means nothing to me. If that is what Turkish state is about to do I think they should not even bother. No Armenian will accept or appreciate it. You cannot murder an entire ethnic group, unroot them from their ancestral lands and drive them into deserts without food and water, rape them on the way, steal everything these people created for the last 3000 years and in their lifetime and come up with a simple apology. With that you will send a very dangerous massage to the world-that it is OK to subject a nation to genocide, destroy their culture, confiscate their belongings, deny it for hundred years and then offer a simple apology and move on. How tempting it becomes to commit a genocide?

      “I really believe, in my lifetime Turkey will recognize the Armenian Genocide, but whatever compensation you have in mind be it territorial or even monetary will never materialize. The biggest reason being no one who committed them is alive today.”

      But and again a big but… never forget that while perpetrators of Armenian genocide are not alive today their offspring are pumping the revenues generated from stolen Armenian properties, land and cultural sites into Turkish budget and every Turkish citizen benefits from that, including you, Tuna if you are a Turkish citizen.

    • Re: “I have some really sad facts for you Gayene, from where I stand you seem like the barbaric savage that is unable to have a civilized conversation.”

      That was your response to Gayane, for her writing this: “….ignorant individual….filthy mouth……”.
      Now, which one of those expressions qualifies as coming from a, quote, ‘barbaric savage’ ?
      Did Gayane threaten you in any way ? threaten Turks at large ? Did she hint at initiation any violent act towards anyone ?
      What is it that Gayane wrote that would compel you to call her a ‘barbaric savage’ ?
      I see nothing other than you, Tuna Tangor, having been raised with so much Anti-Armenian visceral hate, that you could not contain the bigoted bile that had been building up inside you all your life, and suddenly burst to the surface at last.

      Nothing Gayane wrote could call for such a vicious expression directed at her.
      I may have used different language, but when you insist on using the filthy corruption ‘Agri’ on an Armenian site, a name that we Armenians associate with the Armenian Genocide, and this after I politely asked you not to, then I see nothing either barbaric or savage when someone calls its source – figuratively your mouth – filthy.

      I will respond to the rest of your post shortly.

    • Apres Avery jan… qez ei spasum im unker :) laaaaaaaaaaaaavvvv kertsrir…

    • For the 1.5 millionth time I am saying this on Armenian Weekly:

      Armenian territorial claims have NOTHING to do with the genocide, but arise out of the legally binding arbitral award made by President Woodrow Wilson.

      Everybody needs to STOP linking the genocide with territorial claims, because that is the quickest way to turn people off of genocide recognition. The two are separate issues. Let Turkey recognize the genocide at its own pace. But in the meantime nothing is stopping us from making our legal demands for land and property in accordance with domestic Turkish and international law.

  12. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 6, 2012 at 11:09 am // Reply

    Dear Gayane and ….Avery
    Please …easy ,easy does it.
    “Filthy mouth” “savage” are words not usually used in this like debates..instead like self do the contrary.Address them as great Turkey….let them feel they are great. Like the Financial bubble that was created in N.America and Elsewhere..which as we all know by now busted…blew up…
    Turks, do not forget have had the centuries old Ottoman Emprie training in diplomacy.Masters in putting one over to others, covering up their otherwise detestable acts,falsifying truth,interpreting everything in their favour.And ignoring the other nationalities that were there before them for millenia.
    So be it,let them go on with the pipe dream that one day they are going to reconquer ,if not western Ejurope, at least the East of it..etc.,
    In brief, make them feel great. Many Empires have shrunk to become what they are today..

    • Mr. Palandjian..

      I was not the one said “savage”.. just to make that clear.. but I understand what you are saying sir.. :)..

      Tuna Tangor…

      By saying having a filthy mouth does not remotely speaks of uncivilized savagry… actually that merely shows how much ignorance is going around … i am sorry to tell YOU that you are very lucky to be among civilized people whether or not you think I am or not.. it is laughable to think that someone like you (to some degree more civilized that most of your comrads.. IF you are a Turk) is telling me I act unclivized barbarian… just from one word … well I would recommend you to viist the Turkish site and then come back and tell me if I act uncivilized barbarian.. please.. go ahead.. you will see how your comrads speak of Armenians and not only that but they also threaten.. very openly.. so please spare me your feedback.. appreciate it but it does not hold water..

      You speak of dialogue? Hmmm.. that is a joke.. where have you been where Armenians tried so many times to make it work but everytime where stabbed in the back by lies, murder, and denialism… you expect us to have a dialogue.. wow.. that is a concept ….us savages have not heard of dialogue before.. how could we? we are uncivilized savages… thank you for that Tuna… absolutely mind bogling……

      I am sure Avery will respond to your so called “non existance Armenian Kingdom” statement…

    • Honorable Mr. Palandjian:

      I respect your wisdom and numerous contributions to the Cause.

      When posting, I generally choose words and expressions for a specific purpose and to convey a specific message.
      The adjective ‘savage’ was used in a specific phrase: I do not call today’s Turks at large savages: never have, never will. I have called their nomadic Seljuk Turk ancestors savages: will do so as I see fit as many times as necessary. The expression was: “savage Turkic corruption”, meaning savage corruption by Turks. Not corruption by savage Turks: there is a subtle difference. And, yes, I consider the filthy name ‘Agri’ a savage corruption of the majestic name ‘Ararat’ for the evil purpose of cultural Genocide and Turkification of everything Armenian: no different than savage Axeri troops smashing our 10,000 Khachkars to bits with sledgehammers . And couldn’t care less if people object to my use of the adjective ‘savage’ in that context.

      And I am a big boy: know what I am doing.
      I accept lectures on how to do things and how to behave only from my parents, and older siblings, as per traditions of our Գերդաստան.
      Nobody else.

      “A Man’s got to know his limitations” Clint Eastwood.

  13. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 6, 2012 at 11:21 am // Reply

    Tuna Tangor,
    BTW the name Tangor sounds Hungarian to me really…are you..
    May I point out to you that your very well wishing that…and I quote”NONE OF THEM WILL CHANGE THEIR FOREIGN POLICY TOWARDS TURKEY”.
    is a bit TOO CERTAIN…
    After all time has shown that ‘
    NOTHING IS PERMANENT” REALLY!!!!
    Too much confidence placed in others’ benevolence-in this case towards great Turkey-could you know ,undergo some sort of a change…
    so I’d suggst you do not get too certain and hopefull that this Euro-Am stance will continue forever…things change you know…
    Best is in my view, to be down to earth and try -like you pretend-very Ottoman style to be *at least outwardly condescending…we know your people quite well by now.No need,on our behalf to add more to it. Now back to MAIN ISSUE, that is being discussed here,following the author Ms. Gunaysu…
    is the K U R D I S H HUNGER STRIKE ETC.,

    • Exactly Mr. Palandjian..You nailed it…

      Tuna is very confident in his statements which is why I think he is full of hot air.. and hence why i believe even though he speaks well and “civilized” and us, savages who are uncivilized don’t know anything, in his mind he knows the answers to everything.. he is not the only one.. every Turkish/Azeri visitor on these sites act like him.(minus few who are truly in tune with what is going on.. we thank them…)..

  14. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 6, 2012 at 4:11 pm // Reply

    Dear Sella,

    W/ref. to your above post to Tuna Tango,as to reparations/compensations you err tremendously,I´m afraid…..very hurriedly written perhaps,without meditating..
    Our attornyes have been able to receive compensation from Huge Insurance Companies that covered LIFE POLICIES 97 or more yrs old….
    Meaning for people, who passed on…But how, IN THEIR SLEEP?
    nOT AT ALL ,THEY WERE MASS MURDERED…SUBJECTED TO GENOCIDE, as per modern terminology..(from NY Life Ins. and French AXA)and as yet another precedent the German gov. paying for Jewish BLOOD MONEY…..
    Yes, we are demanding FIRST AND FOREMOST BLOOD MONEY!!!!!
    You mention they will not be willing to pay????
    Once it is acknowledged especially by U.K. and USA….they will be talked into coffing up…paying…
    They will come up with the old very old cunning Ottoman lies that our gov. coffers are empty…thyen there is another way to get it from them.
    INDIRECTLY,—— THE OIL COMPANIES bp , esso mobil AND OTHER THAT PASS THE OIL THROUGH PIPELINE VIA tURKEY THE BTJ-bAKU tBILIS jEYHAN…pay at present some 1.6 billion dolalrs AS TRANSIT DUTY…
    ONCE AFOREMENTIONED COMPANIES´ countries or where they are registered, pressed by their specific pertaining states. U.K. and USA etc., they will be pressed to pay half of that Transit duty to Armenia and AGBU,as we decide. T&hey are,,,,,,after all a bit to be asked-if not demanded-why DID YOU PASS THE SAID PIPELINE VIA REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA …AN OLD VERY OLD ALLY OF YOURS THAT ALWAYS FOUGHT ALONGSIDE YOU.WHILE great Turkey or the Ottoman Turkey was fighting you with Germans and others…
    You see there is no escape from paying to us money cash for BLOOD MONEY.Lands???I have mentioned that before,we are overpatient,we can wait some more till the KURDISH ISSUE ripens up…

  15. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 6, 2012 at 4:28 pm // Reply

    ERRATA!!
    Please excuse.
    Thje sentence reading WHY DID YOU PASS THE PIPLINE VIA ARMENIAN ..should read ¨why did you n o t pass the pipeline via Armenia..
    Shortest route…anyhow…

  16. “Tuna is very confident in his statements which is why I think he is full of hot air”

    The times are changing, the circumstances are changing, the climate is changing, concepts are changing, the world is changing and yet Armenians remains the same and still demands territory from Turkey. So my confidence comes from the fact that decades have past and the policy Armenia follows is not bearing any fruit. Name me one country, international organization like the UN, who has called for Turkey to give territory to Armenia?

    The continuation of this hostility benefits no one. It doesn’t benefit Turkey. It doesn’t benefit Azerbaijan and it doesn’t benefit Armenia. Instead of carrying on with the status quo, the leaders of the three countries should find a way towards peace that is acceptable by the aforementioned three countries.

    As a person who has thought quite a bit on how peace could be achieved between the three countries is as follows. Turkey accepts the genocide and like Germany holds national ceremonies every 24th April remembering what happened to the Armenians. Armenia returns some territory that it occupied during the war to Azerbaijan where no Armenians are settled but gets to keep Nagarno-Karabahk. And then we can have a return to normalcy in the eastern Caucuses.

    • Tuna Tangor..

      I suggest you rearrange your thinking cap because apparently you are completely off…

      “As a person who has thought quite a bit on how peace could be achieved between the three countries is as follows. Turkey accepts the genocide and like Germany holds national ceremonies every 24th April remembering what happened to the Armenians. Armenia returns some territory that it occupied during the war to Azerbaijan where no Armenians are settled but gets to keep Nagarno-Karabahk. And then we can have a return to normalcy in the eastern Caucuses.”

      This is a joke.. apparently you have not thought too hard and well… thanks for the laugh Tuna..LOL absolutely hillarious.. if you believe this is how you will solve the problem by allowing the murderors go unpunished but get everything you have something else coming.. why don’t you keep your suggestion to yourself or talk among your denialists groups and leave those who know better do their job.. how about that???

      By the way.. if you believe Germany has just a day to commemorate the Holocaust.. well did you think about the billions Germany had to pay the Jews for the GEnocide.. apparently you left that thought out of the euqation when you were trying to justify your peace and brotherly dialague and solution. how convenient…

    • Read my post. It will enlighten you who hasn’t changed.
      But, yes Armenians were part of Soviet union and kept them from change for 70 years and today we are between two Turkish neighbors who not only live on our lands but also keep us from change somewhat. But, fortunately internet, and global connection has transormed Armenia quiet a bit.

      You made my day, lollll

    • You are right, no country demands Turkey to give lands back to Armenia. Why? is the reason.
      Because:
      after WWI treaties signed set boarders, Turks violated the treaty and pushed boarders. And for political and startegic reasons no one held Turkey responsible.
      second, Turkey being a part of NATO and its eastern occupied lands being leased by US as close to Middle east and Russia keeps Turkey still safe, both in terms of genocide, lands, and other issues with Greeks, and Kurds.

      Third, Turks didn’t goof up so badely as they did in the last 10 years. The secrets of mass graves kept for decades, the Kurds, the reality of sensorship, political prisoners; and their pan-turkic attempt which the leadership doesn’t show they are upholding, but the truth is otherwise.

      And fourth, because the Turkish politics deliberately tried blocking it.

      It was way passed WWI when Turks attempted other times to Turkishify Armenians, Assyrians. The Hemshins who are Armenian decent some did in secrete keep their prayers. The Turks continued building schools around the Hemshine residences to brainwash them to Turkishness. The same goal that the pre-Turkish nationality Ottomans and their young turks did to create the Turkey for Turks and join the Turkic lands.

      Seemingly if a big enough case is made against Turkey that encompases everything Turkish government did and how they hide it for the last 100 years the case will open enough eyes to have international community to condemn Turkey for not only genocide, lands, but also the attempts to hide and deny, and fund activities to sabotage history teachings.

      But, with all these I am not surprised. Turks egnored Ani and Akhtamar and more that don’t exist any longer. The whole goal was to wipe out traces of Armenians. Obvious that the Turks came from central asia to take and not to give back. And if you could take Greece and the Balkans, and other middle eastern ottoman regions I bet Erdogon will honor the decision to do so.

  17. “That was your response to Gayane, for her writing this: “….ignorant individual….filthy mouth……”.
    Now, which one of those expressions qualifies as coming from a, quote, ‘barbaric savage’ ?
    Did Gayane threaten you in any way ? threaten Turks at large ? Did she hint at initiation any violent act towards anyone ?
    What is it that Gayane wrote that would compel you to call her a ‘barbaric savage’ ?”

    Gayane wrote the following :-Such an idiotic comment. But not surprised coming from you Yahya the Turk.

    Not surprised at all.. Turkey is not fit to be in modern world.. period..

    -We both know that nothing in Turkey belongs to you so until you create your own instead if stealing from others by murder and Genocide, then you can open your filthy mouth.

    Now I ask you, are these remarks from a civilized person?

    “I may have used different language, but when you insist on using the filthy corruption ‘Agri’ on an Armenian site, a name that we Armenians associate with the Armenian Genocide, and this after I politely asked you not to, then I see nothing either barbaric or savage when someone calls its source – figuratively your mouth – filthy. ”

    First of all, I must have skipped the part where you politely asked me not to use it, if I had not, to be respectful I would have refrained from using the word. However, one must also understand that it is called that word in Turkish. And when someone uses it, it is not meant as a disrespect towards Armenians. Just like when a Turk uses Istanbul, rather than Constantinopolis. And this again comes down to the lack of dialogue as I did not know Armenians considered it as an insult.

    Well, you probably know better than I do, because you advocate forcibly moving Kurds East of the Tigris river:

    Now before that I also wrote that it was up to the Kurds if they wanted to remain a part of Turkey, they are more then welcome to and should be given full cultural and civil rights. However, if they opt for Independence, than for national security reasons they can’t be allowed to remain in Turkey. And this is how you know if someone is a Turk or a Kurd, only Kurds of Turkey should be allowed to take part in the plebiscite to choose their future.

    “how would you decide who is a Kurd to forcibly move them ? Aren’t you contradicting yourself ?”

    Not really, as I said before culturally there is no difference between a Turk and a Kurd, other than language. We enjoy many of the same things, including the most important we are from the same branch of Islam. We have had many Kurdish individuals who have served in the highest echelon of government. And there is a reason why there has not been an Arab Spring kind of uprising in Turkey by the Kurds, because even though it is not moving in the necessary pace, rights for Kurds are improving.

    • Wow Tuna you sure can’t handle the fact that you were called out about your statement to me..so you try VERY hard to bring up statements that no matter how you twist it or try to twist it does not contstitute the fact that you don’t have any strong evidence of me being an uncivilized savage..the statements you produced STILL do not scream uncivilized savage.. what it screams is THE TRUTH… what Tuna? Can’t handle the truth? Can’t handle the fact that Turks getting really antsy because Armenians are paving forward and achieving what Turkish govt has been scared for a century now? well i am sorry that your feelings were hurt by me saying that Turkey is not fit to be among modern countries or having a filthy mouth.. guess we have been very lenient and very cautious with Turkey too long and now that we are no longer the soft and forgiving nation as we were it is bothering you… well.. good.

      But stop trying .. it is embarassing.. you stated a statement that came out of hatred toward Armenians and that will remain as such…

      and Tuna.. Mt. Ararat (as in its original name) has always been Mt. Ararat.. if you did your homework you would know and not repeat what your govt fed you for many years.. and when you stated ……”””lol, when you own it I’ll call it by whatever you name it, but as long as I don’t need a foreign passport to step on it then I’ll call it Agri”””” it clearly shows me how cocky you….. that one sentence tells me how ditached you are from the truth.. because again this is a great example of what Turkish govt has been doing for years.. changing everything Armenian to make their own.. sooo sad for Turkey.. but I understand people who have no history, no culture, no place in civilized world would do that…

      Thank you and have a nice day

  18. While I appreciate much of your plan for peace,Tuna Tangor, I suggest that Turkey should settle its account with Armenia and leave Armenia and Azerbaijan to settle their accounts without Turkish interference. The Turkish-Azerbaijani Turkish alliance against Armenia is a destructive, bellicose policy that magnifies the atmosphere of ethnic strife.

    Regarding whether there exists a call for Turkey to return territory to Armenia: see the Treaty of Sevres

  19. avatar Tuna Tangör // November 7, 2012 at 6:38 pm // Reply

    Gayane, what murderers? They are all dead, how do you punnish someone who died years ago? And as for the treaty of Serves, it became void with Lausanne.

    • Why do we always run into such roadblocks. is beyond me? Are we not clear?? I don’t get it…

      Tuna read Sella’s post.. and then we can talk.. she explains it VERY clearly as to why it does not matter whether or not the savages who perpetrated the Genocide have been long dead… TURKEY, the country who directly benefited from the Genocide is enjoying the resources and riches NOW .. you know why? it is BECAUSE OF what your ancestors DID.. YOU as in REPUBLIC OF TURKEY, THE GOVT is directly associated with those murderers’ deed and need to make things RIGHT.. JUST LIKE GERMANY did for Jews. kabish?

      The end.

      Gayane

    • Murderers may be dead, Tuna, but the successor state of the murderous Ottoman empire is well and alive. Also, the 1948 Genocide convention holds that punishment for the crime of genocide is not subject to time and space. Did you know that? There is no annotation whatsoever in the Treaty of Lausanne that the Treaty of Sevres has become void. If you take a look at the signatories to the Lausanne Treaty, you’ll find no Armenia there. Therefore, a party that’s not a signatory to an agreement bears no responsibility for fulfilling its provisions . By the way, the USSR is dead, too.

    • “And as for the treaty of Serves, it became void with Lausanne.”

      No, the Soviet Union signed the Treaty of Lausanne, and the Republic of Armenia is not the legal successor of the Soviet Union.

  20. Tuna:

    1. “Alp Arslan defeated the Byzantine Empire, not some non existing Armenian kingdom to start the colonization of Asia Minor by Turkmens”

    The fact that there was no independent Armenian kingdom at the time of the Battle of Manzikert is irrelevant: empires at the time took possession of counties and kingdoms all the time. (…but did not exterminate the populations)
    Fact remains, the region was populated by majority Armenians continuously for about 5,000 years. And the Byzantine empire had about 10 emperors that were either fully Armenian, half-Armenian, or partly Armenian.
    Armenians fought alongside Byzantine Greek troops. The word Turk does not appear in the name Ottoman Empire: was it Turkish or something else ?
    The word Armenian does not appear in the name Cilician Kingdom: it was in fact an Armenian kingdom.

    2. “Now I do not know if or when Armenians of the diaspora will wake up……democratic means.”

    And conversely, I do not know if or when Turks will wake up and realize that very few Armenians either in Diaspora or RoA expect Turks to recognize the AG.
    Our strategy is quite different and does not rely on any goodwill from either individual Turks or the State of Turkey. We welcome contributions of individual righteous Turks, such as Ayse Gunaysu, Prof. Akcam, Ragip Zarakolu etc.
    However, we know they have no power: Denialists run the show in Turkey. Our strategy should be quite obvious: we are lining up more and more counties that can cause political and legal problems for Turkey.
    And it is quite successful: ask yourself why is Turkey so hysterically trying to fight any and all efforts related to the AG in other countries.
    We don’t expect Turkey to do anything for us: when things line up in our favour, Turkey will be compelled; Turkey cannot fight the whole world.
    There is no urgency for us: 100 years, 150 years, 200 years, 500 years. – makes no difference.
    I will tell you the story of Armenian Prince Zakare Zakarian some other time: to show what kind of people you guys are dealing with, and our long memory, and our time horizon.
    We will avenge the murder of 2 million of our Armenian civilians, in 500 years if necessary: have no doubt.

    3. “…but whatever compensation you have in mind be it territorial or even monetary will never materialize. The biggest reason being no one who committed them is alive today”

    This statement alone shows that you are completely divorced from reality. World Jewry was not compensated by individual German Nazis: they were all either killed, had committed suicide, were hanged, or were in hiding. The State of Germany, which had repudiated the Nazis, paid the compensation. And still pays to this day. The State of Turkey is the legal successor state of the Ottoman Empire. As such, it inherited the assets of the Empire and its liabilities. If Turkey does not want to consider itself the successor state, then it is in possession of lands that do not belong to it, and is in possession of stolen wealth of subjects of OE.
    Can’t have it both ways: if you want the assets, you got the liabilities. Don’t want the liabilities ? give up the assets and wealth that belong to someone else.

    4. “But the more I read Armenians views in this website, the more I lose sympathy for Armenians.”

    As Rhett Butler said: “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn”.
    Can’t speak for others, by the last thing I want is sympathy from you or any other Turk.
    What you and Turks that think like you want is to throw out an insincere “apology”, and consider the matter closed.

    Nothin’ doin’.

    What you want is to enjoy the fruits of a colossal crime with no adverse consequences: I am sure all criminals would love to have a world like that.
    Fact is that had the 2 million odd Armenians not been exterminated, they’d naturally multiply to something like 10 million in Western Armenia by now.
    The return of Western Armenia to Armenians would be a moot point, because Armenians would have already done what Kurds are trying to do now.
    Turks foresaw that, and decided to exterminate Armenians first. Kurds multiplied too fast for them to be exterminated by Turks next.

    We can wait. We are in no hurry. We have work to do in RoA and NKR right now. Armenian Diaspora has lots of work to do still. We are not looking for action at this time. Only when all the pieces are in place.
    Mount Ararat will return to her people. Or rather, her people will return to her.

  21. “Armenia returns some territory that it occupied during the war to Azerbaijan where no Armenians are settled but gets to keep Nagarno-Karabahk. And then we can have a return to normalcy in the eastern Caucuses.”

    Tuna:

    on the one hand you consider the matter of returning Western Armenia to Armenians closed, based on some illogical reasoning having to do with Alp Aslan not having taken it from an independent Armenian kingdom at the time.
    on the other hand, you want Armenians to return lands that were taken from us by AzeriTatarTurks long ago when there was no country called Azerbaijan.

    Azerbaijan invaded NKR and tried to wipe it out. At one time Azeri military had occupied 48% of NKR. NKR fought back. Threw out the foreign invaders. Liberated additional historic Armenian lands.
    If Axerbaijan had succeeded in wiping out NKR and ethnically cleansed Armenians from their historic homeland, would you now
    advocate that your TatarTurk cousins leave occupied Armenian lands ? Would you ? Honestly ?

    It has been 20 years. We consider the matter closed. Don’t like the logic ? Give us back Western Armenia, leave occupied Cyprus – then Armenians and Turks (not AxeriTatarTurks) can sit down at a roundtable and have an intellectual discussion about NKR and so-called ‘occupied’ lands. We will provide the fine Armenian brandy to create a relaxed, cordial atmosphere.

    And here is something for my Armenian compatriots to contemplate as to what kind of people we are dealing with:

    http://news.az/articles/politics/71489

    {“Armenians in the Caucasus are alien people who created their artificial state on native Turkish lands, and therefore they have no right to talk about their ancient roots in the region.”

    The statement came from the Secretary General of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) of Turkey, Haluk Ipek.”}

    • “Azerbaijan is a rising star in the region, Turkey is a rising star in the world”

      The relationship between Turkey and Axerbaijan is described best by the Russian famous fable of Krilov.

      За что же, не боясь греха,
      Кукушка хвалит Петуха?
      За то, что хвалит он Кукушку.

      Approximate translation

      So why is that cuckoo without any fear of guilt praises rooster?
      Because rooster praises Cuckoo.

    • If leaders of Turkey act like idiots and speak such filth as to say Armenians are alien people who created their artificial state on native Turkish lands, what do you expect the denialists and the nationalists are…

      Haluk summed it up very well how far and ridiculeous the Turkish govt is going to prove a point that they don’t have.. it is pathetic to see, read and hear what is coming out of these Turkish officials including their followers..

      Thank you Avery for your clearly defined post as always…

  22. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 8, 2012 at 12:47 pm // Reply

    Dear Avery,
    BTW is this name your second such?do you also have an Armenian name,just curious.
    Now then,Please do not use Honourable or such adjectives addressing me,I am just another Armen….dedeicated to my Nation/State and Diaspora of latter.
    if ,in anyway you felt hurt by my phrases easy , easy does it,then please accept my apologies.I have never apologaized on forums..you may feel proud, I did so.
    I did not mean to -in any way- either to you or Gayane-lecture or ask to behave…you overdid that!!!
    I just wrote easy…eassy does it that does not constitute lecturing or asking to behave. All it was meant to be ,was to go a bit easier on Turks here.
    You see,my dear compatriot, to begin with we are dealing with very sofisticated turks here-the SHARAVIGH…means more or less the offspring of the Ottoman Empire ages old experiences in dealing with especially Ermenis,aside from Greeks,Bulgarians Arabs etc.-
    They are to be handled with utmost -reciprocated- (sugar-coated) words, rather than ,for example telling an immoral woman you are so…she knows and feels so,NO NEED to throw it at her face. Same to a Thief,a usurperar etc..These offspring of aforementioned ottoam Turks,with seljuk,tatar,mogul ancestry HAVE INHERITED the cruelness(coated in sugar)hypocracy,wickedness,evil etc., in same mode.Thence,when I write great Turkey,it is indeed partially TRUE.They are great now , as rgds their position military wise, Economy wise and above all DIPLOMACY WISE.
    They have been able to apparent their alliance to those who craved for it,promsing never actually realizing deeds to prove alliance or allegiance.Just outwardly declaring pretending and appearing in International forums.Oh ,I near forgot..even from Korean war days, they did stage it.
    I remember in TIME magazine a photo and artiocle next to it in those days..viz. war in Korea..a turkish soldier with ears,,yes a half ozen or so ears of North korean dangling from his belt…showing off his bravery….
    my foot!!! he must have cut them of from dead such that had been killed by U:S troops..So is their might in propaganda too.
    Even today they buy (with easy money received from West)space in most important newspapers of the West ,advertising their triumphs, pfrogress etc., and indeed that they are there in the area to police and see to it that nothing happens!!! again my big foot. One can observe what is happening in Syria and great Turkey about to bust in and make an easy killing there too.However, other powers are as yet holding great turkey back..
    Went too far.
    Again,sorry if I in any way caused you to feel hurt!!!
    I depend on nice young people like you Gayane Sella etc.,keep the pressure on…our adversaries are very serious in trying to silence us.

    • Thank you dear Mr. Palandjian. Your remarks are highly appreciated.

      I surly could have expressed myself better regarding the compensation issue, but, my main goal was to explain Tuna that even though Turks accountable for Armenian genocide are not alive their offspring or better put every Turkish citizen is financially benefiting from Armenian genocide. It is called massive theft. I do not know why any descent person would choose to engage in massive theft voluntarily or involuntarily without openly speaking against it but, if that is what makes them happy and proud Turkish citizens let let them enjoy it until the fairy tale is over.

      Ömer Taşpınar, is advocating the same as Tuna. Notice how refined his talk is, but one can readily read between the lines.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AN88AtsqMs

    • Mr. Palandjian… thank you for your kind words.. much appreciated…I know both Avery and I appreciate your contribution to our pages and see you as someone very honorable…you are a very intelligent and dedicated individual..

      However, I would like to say this.. we all due respect but where you mentioned that we need to sugar coat words when we speak with Turks on these pages really struck me… I believe on the contrary …. we have to end such treatment toward them.. it is obvious they don’t care and if we continue with such soft and passive attitude, we will not get too far… it is our strong voice and our perserverence without sugar coating our words that got us where we are… and I tend to keep it as such..

      Apparently people like Tuna who think i am an uncivilzied savage because i said Turkey is not fit to be in modern world and that he has filthy mouth by being cocky in his posts and had the audocity to call me out on it clearly shows how much these people have grown balls because we have been soo soft and careful what we say.. but no more..giving sugar is no longer an option… it will be bitter truth… with salt and pepper .

      Unless I misunderstood your statement… if I did, please forgive me…

      Thank you sir..

      Gayane

  23. First of all Thank you this was very educational. Let me start by appologizing for ayn spelling errors as i âm writing form my phone.

    Avery i don’t agree with all of akp policy. Form my prespective, None of todays Turkey belongs to Armenians became it was yours to lose. But that does not justify genocide against your people by my ancestors, however since i statda before my generalin had nothing to do with it so i do not feel guilty AT ALL and therefore i have No deşire to pay compensations. But i do think we owe an appology to Armenians.

    İ keep on reading Germany paying the Jews. But the circumstances are different. They lost a war, just like us. But they accepted occupation and defeat by the allies. We too could have accepted defeat, but we chose another path and we dictators our terms and this today on top of Agrl there is a Turkish flag. And Gayane that is why you can’t really hurt my feelings.

    Again Thank you, it was educational.

    • Tuna says thank you it was very educational but he feels it is not his problem and will continue to be a denialist… and refuse to admit that Turkey was, is and will be guilty and MUST pay up…

      Tuna.. forgive me but please get off your high horse.. we are not begging for your apology.. you can keep your apology…

      So much for civilized Turk…. guess no matter how much sugar coated words or softness we should use to educate them of the truth, the fact will remain that some will never get it through their head… so sugar coating and being soft is not necessary.. because frankly, these types of individuals will never be appreciative…

      Thank you

      Gayane

    • The Nazis were also dead by the time the Third Reich’s successor state, modern-day Germany, has admitted the German nation’s guilt with respect to the Jews, apologized AND started the reparations process. It has nothing to do with Germany’s losing the war. It has something to do with the fact that Germans, in contrast to unremorseful, self-centered Turkish denialists, can demonstrate civilizational traits.

    • Well said John jan… apres

  24. @ Gayane,

    The appology isn’t just for you Gayane, it is for our souls as well. I learned recently that one of my great grandfathers was a very important political figure in Nigde during the First World War and after reading the Blue Book (especially the parts of Nigde) and Taner Akcam I came to learn what befell the Armenians of that city and the adjoining areas.

    Unfortunately there is nothing I can do other than give an appology, because the events happened 100 years ago and as I said before I feel no responsibility as it happened before even my parents were born.

    And I still do think you are uncivilized, because you are unable to see me nothing more than a murderer because I am a Turk. Even though I have never harmed an Armenian in my life. But you call a whole nation not fit to be in the modern world. Here is a fact for you Gayane, do you know when it was the first time I even heard of the Armenian Genocide. It was in 2001, by a French politician right after Turkey was made a candidate country to join the EU. So you can see the suspicions I had, because I thought at the time it was just another road block. Then I started reading up on the matter and came to realize, that there might be a truth to it.

    But even though I accept it happened, it wasn’t me or for that matter my generation so I feel it really isn’t my problem and that the world as a whole is a bit too late. They had an opportunity back when the Ottoman Empire was occupied, but did not carry forward to punish the individuals that carried out the genocide. So excuse me when I say, I don’t owe any one anything other than an appology. Now you can step up the anti-Turkish retoric, but that will only pass the torch to the next generation to maintain the status quo.

    Now comming to monetary, but more importantly territorial concessions. These two subjects the later is not open for debate. But comming to the monetary concessions, I find Armenian’s stance to be really shortsighted, becuase if it was really monetary concession they were after they had the perfect opportunity to be included in the Baku-Tiflis-Ceyhan pipeline. The yearly revenue the Armenian Republic would have received would have been a relief for its economy. But they chose the status quo.

    Finally Gayane, continue your path of frankness, rudeness and hostility. In the end of the day I live in my homeland and am at peace with my self and with Armenians.

    • Tuna T….

      Again.. it is unfortunate that we can’t seem to get through your heads on many issues that face your country…how some of you who are very oblivious what history holds and detach themselves from it.. convincing yourself that it is not your problem because it happened 100 years ago is a cheap way out.. ..

      also, we have seen this over and over… the difference between Turks and Armenians on these pages are the following… not sure how long you have been visiting our pages but if you were a regular you would notice that Armenians’ frustration is directed toward the TURKISH GOVT, its NATIONALIST denialists and those who are brainless and can’t think on their own and believe what they hear from your leadership….BUT Turks who visit our pages attack Armenians in general.. .not sure if you will ever see it because you live in “your” homeland that never belonged to you in the first place and are at peace with yourself; which is untrue because you can never be at peace when you have this black and bloody cloud hanging over your nation…..

      It is very funny to me because your original name calling to me was “uncivlized savage” for simply stating the facts: Turkey is not fit to be among civilized countries …. and that somehow saying filthy mouth constituted one to be an uncivilized savage.. then we called you out on it… you could not redeem yourself from that statement .. and now you try a different tactic of calling me uncivilized because according to you I don’t see you as nothing but a murderor because you are a Turk.. well well well.. this is getting more and more interesting.. i wonder what you will find next…Tuna, forgive me but I am calling you OUT AGAIN … please point, highlight or provide anywhere in my posts that I, an Armenian uncivilized savage as you called me, stated or remotely referred YOU, Tuna Tanger as a murderor because you are a Turk.. If you do not produce such a statement, you are to apologize immediately for calling me uncivilized savage or you will be labeled as an uncivilized and blinded with hate denialist.. and that will remain with you forever… and that is how I will refer to you going forward….so please produce that statement and please make sure it clearly states that I see YOU, Tuna Tanger as a murderor because you are a Turk…

      Tuna Tanger..
      Please explain what souls you are talking about when you said apology is not only for you Gayane but our souls? Your apology may be something to be appreciated IF you geniunely believe the autrocities happen by your ancestors and Turkey as a nation not only need to apologize but NEED and MUST repay for all the damages and losses….if you believe it happened. then you should also believe that when the murderor killes off the entire family, steals their wealth and have his off springs enjoy everything stolen for years to come, need to be punished and be brought to justice …Well Tuna.. someone who read up on it and believes it happened…. you should then know that TURKEY as the inheritor of the its father, the Ottoman Empire on all the wealth, riches and everything else that were stolen from Armenians can’t go on without punishment… hope you see the picture a bit now… so you may apologize but what good would that do when one does not truly understand what they are apologizing for… that YOU and others in Turkey are one small piece of the history that was paved by bloodshed, murder of a nation, great attempt of wiping out a rich culture of Armenians and other Christians does not stop at the apology.. you as an individual may not take out your money to pay the Armenians but you are enjoying what could have been still ours.. so yes you are part of the bigger picture… even though you don’t connect yourself to what happened.. but your GOVT should and WILL pay back what they stole from us… sooner or later…

      I believe it is not me who is uncivilized Tuna…. i believe those who keep repeating the lies and try to come up with excuses for not facing the inevitable and find themselves forgetting where they came from and how much power they have to change what is broken but refuse to see it are the uncivilized people…..

  25. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 9, 2012 at 11:46 am // Reply

    Dear compatriots,
    Firstly thank you all.Keep up the pressure on Turks .In any way possible…
    Secondly, indeed any person has the God given right to express oneself in any fashion he/she desires,as rgds issues that are of general interest.
    However, these ,I hope will be well weighed and measured not to affect our CAUSE negatively. I am certain these words are of encouragement to all.
    MY NEXT DECLARATION, YES DECLARATION HERE IS AS FOLLOWS:-
    So far, our traditional political parties, their press and publications ,indeed all other none- so ,i.e., non-partisan press etc., have held on to their beliefs.
    I respect them all but beg to differ as to some of their beliefs.More to that later below.
    BTW this is not the declaration before demise…I hope to live to see great Turkey changed ,come to accept officially Genocide perpetrated on Armenians by their predecessor govt.s and begun to make reparations-
    Rule, or Suggestion(I like latter better)
    No.1. Do please accept an d conform with any usefull idea/plan from yojur compatriot(s) come from any idology pertaining compatriot.That is if he a social Democra, Chritian dEmocra, Maoist, Communist, marxist, Hunchagian,ARF, Ramgavar-agan whatever his political leniency…….. I F
    BENEFICIAL-JUST MENTIONED- to the whole of Armenity/Armenia/Artsakh.
    Please put aside your ¨other¨ belief/pertinency to Rank & File(if so) to any of above political parties. FOR ..priority is tha Nation/State and our Diaspora.
    No.2.Above will lead us to better understanding amongst us,so far set to prioritise ideology/pertinency to the National,the Whole, and now the STATE.
    Yes the State,for now we cannot be labelled as before people/pueblo..we area State/Nation……
    3.Help drive home the idea that our present state of affairs in Diaspora needs an overhaul, a R E – ORGANIZATION(my version).For the 160 and odd yrs ¨Sahmanatrutyun¨¨ drawn up in Constantinople, by our clergy and amireas is NOT COMPATIBLE with our contemporary Dynamic Diaspora(s).

    Finally I wish to GOD Allmighty that our political trends-so to say- would change stance to ADVOCATE FOR OUR IMMEDIATE DEMAND FOR ….
    ¨b l o o d m o n e y¨¨ FROM GENOCIDE inherited STATE,great Turkey,RATHER THAN RICHES, REAL ESTATE/LAND.For….
    As I ahve many times over described, this has precedents and can be realized through various methods,even if CULPRIT explains their coffers are empty and they cannot make CASH compensations. They certainly can be made to pay through other channels…
    This much for now.

  26. In due time, Tuna will realize, like all others before him, that this is not the place to argue in good faith, with good intentions and God forbid, inject logic, facts and common sense to your point of view. Let us see how long he lasts.

    • Murat.. and when will you realize that denialists like you who did not last too long kept coming back.. because you can’t get enough of our pages.. you can’t live without AW…

      So as far as we are all concerned, people like you including Tuna will learn one lesson and one lesson alone on these pages.. that no matter how much guile, hate, and denialism you spew, you will be defeated with ten fold…

      and you should not speak of logic, good faith, and good intentions … these words can’t be associated with a notorious denialists like you…

      good day

  27. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 9, 2012 at 3:10 pm // Reply

    Bad news for great Turkey…
    Iran may by and by lean towards some understanding with the US.
    On the other hand today Iran refused to go to Ankara…for whatever great Turkey had concocted up there…

  28. “The Nazis were also dead by the time the Third Reich’s successor state, modern-day Germany, has admitted the German nation’s guilt with respect to the Jews, apologized AND started the reparations process. It has nothing to do with Germany’s losing the war. It has something to do with the fact that Germans, in contrast to unremorseful, self-centered Turkish denialists, can demonstrate civilizational traits.”

    That statement is false. It had everything to do with Germans losing the war and the nazis were not dead as you claim. The Nuremberg Trials were held between 1945–46 and prosecuted 23 prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the Nazi Germany only three Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, and Joseph Goebbels were absent because they had commited suicide earlier.

    And reperation agreement between Germany and Israel was entered into force on 1953, eight years after Germany’s defeat to the allies. So the horrific crimes perpetrated against European Jewery was still alive. This is not the case between Turkey and Armenia.

    First and foremost there is no dialogue between Armenia and Turkey today. Any dialogue will only start when there is peace between Azerbaijan and Armenia, becuase any unilateral move by Turkey will upset Azerbaijan and it would be one of the biggest foreing political blunders to lose an important ally like Azerbaijan.

    As you can see the circumstances are very different to that of Germany and Israel. While the Nazi attrocities were still in the memory of the Germans, a high number of Turks are unaware of what really happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. And even ones that know what happened, don’t feel any responsibility because it happened 100 years ago and thus it was generations ago.

  29. Turks stood their ground for decades now. Their foot prints of recent or not so past history going back to the 19th centry up until today is filled with murderous acts, cover ups, denials, secrets of mass graves, memory of genocides encouraged to be undone, steps to sabotage education of their true history, creating new recruits from turkish yought to continue all the above.
    Unfortunately, Turkey still has the safety of NATO to hide behind and not only US’s denial of genocide is not enough for the Turkish government but also they demand more.
    What difference realy did Kemal Attaturk make in modernizing turkey and creating the country after Ottoman. Not much, at least when it comes to how Turks think of themselves and of the killers of humanity. And the country which calls itself democratic, diverse, and secular only practices what it preaches to limited extent, making sure their long planned and honored plans to keep skelletons secretly in the closet.
    But, recent decade has weatnessed the closet oppening. The not so visited eastern Turkey that Armenians called their home for mellenia, from pressure from European scientists uncovered the mass graves. Turkey was a killing field and more is left to find.

    But, All these deials haven’t made Turks live a quiet and confortable life. Despite their booming economy, fueled by inverse engineered goods and cheap chinese style manufacturing they are panicked and angry.

    The hunger strike is one example of what the victims do to bring Turkey to its knees. Turkey is like a serial killer which is found to be guilty, but haven’t been sentenssed. Given time, Turkish officials and politions do buy time to try lowering or even blaming the decendants of victims.

    Last 10 years has been Turkish campaign against diaspora Armenians whose disaspora was created by Turks. The Ottomans killed their ancestors and Turks are trying their luck at killing diaspora’s voice. How shameful.
    But, is shame really something for Turkish government to be conserned about when it comes to giving back all they took from. Maybe lands and restorations, and the money they made from tourist dollars?

    Kurds did play role in killing Armenians but, the mastermind was Turkish high commands the young Turks.

    The poison of Turkishification of locals in Turkey still is scattered all around asia minor. Turks have learned from Ottoman defeat from Eouropeans, middle east, and Russian expansion that their empire’s leftovers can only be preserved by forcing Turkishification of locals or keep then shut up. Calling Armenains whose ancestors were forced to convert Turks and others who didn’t infedels. But, Christian Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians weren’t only ones who were forced to Turkishified or killed. Kurds suffered a greate deal as well and regret what some of their ancestors did to Armenains in the name of Allah.

    Turkish denial of killing of Christians in asia minor is older than the spark of terrorism against west.

    You will not find a nation in the world that sentenses people to jail because of insulting that nationality accpet Turkey. Is that democratic, not. Turkey can’t afford to be democratic since like soviet union the statistics are the obsticle.

    Using bits and pieces of Armenian or Greek anti-Turkish activities which compose very small percentage of these nation’s poppulation, Turkish propaganda tries to call them terrorist. But, the wise will look at the big picture that span decades. Why didn’t Turks speak of the mass graves decades ago??? Why they ignored our churches until recently? and if they ignored what is there, can there be others that has been destroyed?
    Asking these questions don’t need visiting Turkey, but some knowledge and courisity.

    Turks know they can’t cover the crimes, so they play with numbers and words.

    • Ed,

      When it comes to their genocidal past, Turkish government choose a very simple approach-you cannot effectively fight against so many countries and millions of foreigners who are aware of your criminal past but you surely can work on your 75 million population. All you have to do is print textbooks with distorted history and start brainwashing your own people as early as possible in schools and onwards. That’s what they have been doing and so far they have been successful. But, it will not last forever. As Çengiz Aktar said in Civilitas, even Turkish youth is not buying all those lies anymore (or something similar, watched it a while ago).

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEVfnqghN7w

    • Bull’s eye Ed jan..

  30. censorship is something that is associated with China, Iran, and Cuba. But, we Armenains and neighboring nations know well that Turkey is master of censorship and isn’t that far behind in political prisoners.

    • Were actually ahead I think. Number one in something at least…

    • How iroinc as nine out of ten submissions here do not make past the censorship. I can see why some would be allergic to facts and figures.

    • Rvdv you are right Turkey is absolutely are ahead and first. They are ahead in having committed one of the hightest human rights violations, they are the first of perpetrating the first horrible Genocide and first to get away by denialism, bribary and lies.

      I totally agree with you on being number one in these categories RVDV

      Unfortunately Turkey with so much money and power does not hold any other number one place .

    • What Murat.. were your feelings hurt because your nonsense full of hate comments don’t come through? well i have burst your bubble full of hot air.. because you are not the only one whose comments don’t go through from time to time.. we ALL experienced that…

      Get over yourself…

    • Murat: The editors obviously have a sense of humor. Every time someone complains about being censored, that comment goes through. What I don’t get is, if you don’t think people here can have reasonable debates and conversations, if you think everyone is so full of prejudice and hatred, why keep coming? Let people think what they think about Turks. We tried to kill LITERALLY all of them, and then kicked them all off their ancestral homeland. AND we’ve- with success- pretended we never did ANY of that. Can you let the people vent a little? I mean hell, I call myself a Turk BY CHOICE, and even I have some stored up hatred at us.

      Gayane: What can I say, we make good bad guys. Times change, maybe someday we’ll drop down on that list.

  31. avatar john the turk // November 11, 2012 at 6:02 am // Reply

    Ed
    Why don’t you come and talk about these in Turkey.I am sure you would receive a fifty years to serve and no daylight. Can you dare?

    • I told you the joke is on you.
      Now you are talking. keep it up since it is useful for the case against Turkish government.

    • Now, even worse since you are letting the world know your country is not any more democratic than the Islamic Republic of Iran. As a matter of fact they are more civilized.
      know, Turkey is totalitarian. Also, I would not spend my precious hard work money on Turkey’s economy. I rather visit Bulgaria and Greece, they actually have true and brilliant hisory’s rather than the coppied and exploited and vandalized one.
      But, even if I get 50 years I will use it the best way to get my message accross, because I know many who know about the truth personally and they will make my imprisonment a big international deal and screw Turkey’s fake image.

      With all the mess your government is, Turkish anti-truth budget must increase expandature on bribing US presidents to prevent all Turkey’s politions from getting life sentense.
      That’s what the whole panic is about.

    • Ed jan.. the denialists are a bit too slow of getting the meaning of well thought out, well written and full of actual data… it will take a long time until they start using their heads for once and stop repeating the same ol broken down information their govt has been feeding them…

    • and I have a feeling year after year Turkey will increase their “bribe” budget limit higher and higher..

      that is the only way they can force US and others who will fall for Turkey’s fakeness and lies on their side..

  32. avatar john the turk // November 11, 2012 at 11:19 am // Reply

    RVDV
    As long as PKK doesn’t lay its arms, Turkey will never be a truly democratic country.

    • Dream on. you may be the rulers, but you are on other’s lands. They won’t go down easy until they bring Turkey to it’s knees.

    • John: Turkey will be a truly democratic country when the PKK ceases to exist because they have no popular support left, until their fight serves no means. On that day, Turkey will be a truly democratic nation- I just hope it won’t become a smaller one in that process.

    • RVDV,

      you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

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