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Erdogan ‘Apologizes’ for Dersim Killings, Insults Diaspora

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ISTANBUL, Turkey (A.W.)—Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan apologized today for the killings in Dersim (now Tunceli) from 1936-39.

Erdogan

The apology on behalf of the Turkish Republic came on the heels of the release of documents showing that military operations had killed thousands in the Dersim region in the late 30s. Erdogan showed the documents during his speech and implicated the Turkish leadership at the time in the massacres.

According to Anatolia News Agency, Erdogan referred to the Dersim killings as “the most tragic incident of our near past.”

Erdogan laid the blame squarely on the Republican People’s Party (CHP), which was the single party ruling Turkey until the mid-20th century. Erdogan called on the leadership of the CHP, currently the main opposition party in Turkey, to apologize for the massacres.

“Is it me who should apologize or you [CHP leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu]? If there is the need for an apology on behalf of the state and if there is such an opportunity, I can do it and I am apologizing. But if there is someone who should apologize on behalf of the CHP, it is you, as you are from Dersim. You were saying you felt honored to be from Dersim. Now, save your honor,” Erdogan said.

“Dersim is among the most tragic events in recent history. It is a disaster that should now be questioned with courage. The party that should confront this incident is not the ruling Justice and Development Party [AK Party]. It is the CHP, which is behind this bloody disaster, who should face this incident and its chairman from Tunceli,” Erdogan added, referring to Kilicdaroglu.

‘Don’t compare me to the diaspora’

In response to an accusation from the CHP that the move is a prelude to apologizing to the Armenians for 1915, Erdogan said, “You are putting me in the same basket with the Armenian Diaspora. Shame on you! How dare you put me and the Armenian Diaspora in the same basket!”

‘Hypocritical and insincere’

“The current discourse is highly hypocritical and insincere. At this very moment, more than 10 dams are being built in Dersim. To build dams in order to flood the region and displace people were items of the reports in the 1930’s about the ‘Dersim problem,'” said Dr. Bilgin Ayata in an interview with Armenian Weekly Editor Khatchig Mouradian.

She added, “While under the AKP government, the last phase of the systematic destruction of Dersim from 1938 is being implemented and carried out today, any reference to the ‘Dersim massacres’ by Prime Minister Erdogan serves first and foremost to portray and frame the state intervention in Dersim as a past event, while in fact, it is being completed at this very moment.”

Ayata, who is at the Free University of Berlin, noted that many important sacred and religious sites of Alevis and Armenians in Dersim have been flooded since last year because of the dams. “People in Dersim regard this as the last phase of the destruction of the Dersim culture. By bringing up the Dersim issue, Erdogan is not only hunting for votes among Alevis or abusing this issue in order to discredit his political opponent Kilicdaroglu, he is actually killing two birds with one stone by diverting the issue of the dam building in Dersim that his government is responsible for. I also do not think that he ‘opens up’ the discourse. In fact, he sets limits to the discourse of Dersim 1938  by framing it as a ‘massacre.’ The term ‘Dersim massacre’ is only an improvement in the discourse if your starting point is the Turkish official ideology.”

“If your reference point is the International Genocide Convention from 1948, it is merely a sophisticated  continuation of denial policies, as the case of the mass violence between 1936-38 easily fits the criteria set in the convention to constitute genocide,” concluded Ayata.

Background

Tens of thousands of men, women, and children were massacred by Turkish troops during the destruction of Kurds and Zazas of Dersim (now Tunceli) in 1937-38. For decades, this genocide was denied and framed as a “suppression of an uprising” by the Turkish state. In November 2009, the Turkish Republican People’s Party deputy chairman, Onur Oymen, said that the destruction of the Kurds in Dersim was an example of the struggle against terrorism, and a heated public debate ensued. Columnists and political figures harshly criticized Oymen’s statement, and even high-ranking Turkish officials called the events of Dersim a “massacre.” Some thought Turkey was finally coming to terms with at least one horrible chapter of its past.

For the video of Erdogan’s speech, click here. For an article on Dersim and Turkish discourse, click here.

550 Comments on Erdogan ‘Apologizes’ for Dersim Killings, Insults Diaspora

  1. a clever move from again a politian with endless experience in manipulating outsiders’ opinions of turkey’s affairs. this is nothing more than a political shot at an oppositon party while conveniently under the guise of ‘coming to terms with their history’ for the eyes of the west to analyze and praise. we as armenians, however, should see this as another rock in a growing road of turkish internal turmoil in facing its history. st giragos, soorp khatch, online signatures, et al again point to a people who are gaining dissent and surely approaching its inevitable past.

  2. How hard is it for the leader of the Turkish Republic to deliver a clear, unqualified apology on behalf of his nation, for state sponsored crimes against its citizens, without pointing his finger at others and turning the apology into a political ad for his own party, instead of the humane act it should be?

    But after waiting almost 100 years for Turkey to admit to the Armenian Genocide, I am not surprised. 

  3. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 23, 2011 at 1:04 pm // Reply

    Well explained  Andrew. Meanwhile, caution ,wait and see is a better position.for  they have  much more  up their sleeves,especially  AS  OF  TODAY…
    That the Law penalizing   DENAIL OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE  IN FRANCE(FIRST  was realized  in Switzerland) is at the French Senate  for  voting.Hope it will go through and thus, in parallel with  great Turkey maneuvring to evade(as above) going through their yaqvash yavash by and by method will not work  out.RECOGNITION IS AND SHOULD ALWASY BE  ON OUR AGENDA  AS  P R I O R I T Y …THEN INDEED,COMPENSATION!!!
    BLOOD  MONEY, then  real estate   and riches  confiscated.For  Blood money  has precedent  for  C R I M E S      O F   T  H  A  T      N A T U R E     and  VOLUME!!! 

  4. The Republican People’s Party is not just any “opposition party” and this event is significant.  
    The progress that is being made in Turkey may be painfully slow, but it is not fictitious.  I recall
    the great debate in Washington in the 1980s, with Caspar Weinberger and his minions arguing that Gorbachev and his “glasnost” and “perestroika” were for show, and not real, while George Shultz and, ultimately, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, realized that Gorbachev was serious.  While some in Turkey may be simply manipulators, the overall tendency is not fraudulent, and ought not to be cavalierly dismissed.  Arrest of Ragip Zarakolu, however, is most unfortunate.  The road is indeed littered with obstacles and is not straight ahead.

  5. One would be tempted to say “it’s a good start” but this is another ploy not to admit  the “Armenian Genocide” .Since the  PM ” RTEis the current representative of the Turkish gvmnt. he should go back further and apologize for the really bad actions that his predecessors did.

  6. Vote NO
    on Erdogan as Time magazine’s Man of the Year

    1. Voting no at the
    following link:

    http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2098471_2098472_2098512,00.html

  7. The road is indeed littered, as Mr.Evans suggests, with obstacles. However, if one looks further down that road, and not very far off one will see the road littered with 1.5 million + 1 bodies of Armenians, flanked by 7 million of the diaspora, still waiting for an unqualified apology.

  8. A typical Turkish slyness demonstrated by a sly Turkish politician.  For political expediency reasons he apologizes for one of the many horrible genocidal acts that Turks have committed against the Kurds, and most gruesomely, against the Armenians, as well as the Greeks and Assyrians.  In Dersim, from 13,000 to as many as 70,000 (Kurdish sources) innocent people were killed and bombed, allegedly by orders from General Ataturk himself.  Who’s going to apologize for the widespread genocidal murders of hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians, and 2 million of savagely slaughtered Armenians, Mr Prime Minister?!

  9. Ambassador Evans:  In recent years, many respectable historians, international relations experts, and conspirologists admit that Gorbachev’s emergence in the Soviet political elite and his consequent actions aimed at the disintegration of the Soviet state were part of the international corporatocracy’s agenda of which Reagan’s administration and the intelligence community were well aware.

  10. I have to agree with the realists (e.g. Andrew), and disagree with the optimists (e.g. Fmr Amb John Evans). 

    PM Erdogan is on record having said that the Armenian Genocide “is a lie”. (on C. Rose)
    PM Erdogan is on record having said this: {Erdogan claimed to know that Bashir is innocent, and that there is no genocide taking place in Sudan. “A Muslim can never commit genocide,” he said in explanation. “It’s not possible.”}

    All these ploys are to distract us, lose focus. 
    We Armenians should stay the course:
    1. Continue supporting and strengthening Armenia: economically, demographically,
        militarily.
    2. Continue supporting and strengthening Artsakh: ditto.
    3. Continue our Worldwide efforts of universal AG recognition.
    4. Continue our legal and political efforts to frustrate and cause problems for
        the State of Turkey at every turn. until they recognize the AG, start paying
        reparations.

    We are in no hurry: time is on our side.
     
     

  11. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // November 23, 2011 at 2:46 pm // Reply

    Perous...Don’t Press On Like at the end of Erdugan’s Photo 
    In the web side you have forwarded…

    Please be careful where you press there is a trick there…
    They coat an error… you you go and press on Like…
    Don’t press on Like Be careful
    They will thank you that you agree with Erdugan…
    I tried to clean I could not…
    <MAny Tricks there as usual…

    SP 
     

  12. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // November 23, 2011 at 2:58 pm // Reply

    Those Killed Kurds By Turkish Guns 
    Are Rebels Not Humans…
    No-One Should Attend Their Funerals…!
     
    Armenians in every space…You are late…Awake 
    The Diyarbakir Mayor Osman Baydemir* is facing 28 years 
    Imprisonment for attending funeral of his ethnic friends.
    In the eyes of Ottomans… 
    Those killed are rebels not humans…!
     
    If the honest mayor already faced charges 
    Next…he will never be there
    Surp Giragos Cathedral will end in ruins 
    As it was since almost a century past (1915)
     
    This gives a lesson for all Armenians
    Not to put penny in your ancient land 
    All will be lost…like you lost your jewels…your carpets…
    Your books with pens…and most important of all 
    Your genes…your artful race…1.5 million innocent lives
     
    Don’t cheat yourself that you are educated…artful…fair  
    Our God is old…can’t face millions’ of criminals 
    Their god knows how to guide them to dystroy…confiscate… 
    What your hands carvesd on cloths…rocks…
     
    Thus…Awake…see where you stand 
    As the Arab Muslim Poet, Assad Rustom penned, in May 1916
    When Jamal pasha alsaffah** hanged 32 of his literate mates…   
    “The sons of Turks you are never Muslims” 
     
    According to the Islamic law (Shareea) 
    You can attend your enemy’s funeral…
    They say Prophit Mohamad always use to attend…
    As well as Imam Ali ( 598-slayed 661)…
     
    But they have Ataturk law (father of Turks)
    Which is defined democratic-secular…!
    Not only by their literates
    But by all—so called—civilized parliaments
    Who pretend blind…on all their crimes…
    Knowingly support them…To attain their games…!!!
     
    Sylva-M.D-Poetry
    November 20, 2011
    ______________________
    *Kurdish Mayor Lawyer and Human Activist Osman Baydemir restorated the largest cathedral in Middle East and was opened less than a month ago, October 23, 2011
     (St. Giragos Cathedral was build in 16th century and bombed in May 1915; while the Vank cathedral in Isfahan, Iran, still intact)
     
    During opening ceremoney on Sunday mass on 23th October, Diyarbakir Mayor Osman Baydemir addressed the congregation, declaring first in Armenian, and then Kurdish, Turkish, English and Arabic: 
    “Welcome to your home. You are not guests here; this is your home
    We all know about past events, he said, pointedly referring to 1915, and our wish is that our children will celebrate together the coming achievements.”

    Osman Baydemir graduated from the Law Faculty at Dicle University in Diyarbakır. In 1995 he became the chair of the Diyarbakır branch of the independent Human Rights Association. Between 1995 and 2002 he also was a board member and became vice-president of the association. In February 1999 he became one of the first lawyer who volunteered to defend Abdullah Öcalan. In 2001 he became a founding member of the Human Rights Foundation of Turkey (HRFT or TİHV Türkiye İnsan Hakları Vakfı). At the general elections in 2002, he was the candidate of the Democratic People’s Party (DEHAP), but the party failed to reach the 10% election threshold. In 2003, Baydemir spent 6 months in the United States, to improve his English. In 2004, he was elected mayor of Diyarbakır.
    In May 2005 he married Reyhan Yalçındağ, the deputy chair of the Human Rights Association in Turkey. On April 23, 2006 their son Mirzanyar was born. (ref:Wikipedia)
     
    **alsaffah means butcher in the Arabic language
    ====================================
    God…Protect Us from criminals…
    If You,God,  can’t guide them to Humanity…
    How can we share in their community…!
    Sylva-MD-Peotry

  13. The Genocide of Armenians and the massacre of Kurds are different matters in Erdogan’s strategy. He apologized to the Kurds because he wants to diffuse the Kurdish rebellion and take the wind out of PKK. As far as he sees, there’s no reason for him to apologize to Armenians, specially when he knows there would be consequences to the apology which he would not like. The apology to the Kurds also improves his stature among Europeans, Kurds in Syria and in Iraq. The move makes him look like a statesman.

  14. Is Erdogan also apologizing for the  Kurdish upsrising in Dersim during 1916-17?
    Thanks for the alert  Sylvia. You have to vote in the little square boxes. This site is from Time Magazine so should be o.k. 

  15. avatar Random Armenian // November 23, 2011 at 4:24 pm // Reply

    There is one other sly and subtle benefit to what Erdogan has done. For those who not familiar with the history of Dersim or those not looking deep, Erdogan gains some credibility and his denial of the Armenian genocide will be taken at face value.

    But regardless of the political slyness, this act is a double edged sword. Anyone playing this game opens the doors to Turkey’s dark pasts a centimeter more. If you’re not optimistic, at least have some hope that these little changes may lead the Turkish government’s loss of control over the historical narrative.

    gaytzag palandjian, it’s really hard to read your writings. Your postings appear to be streams of thought and it’s painful to parse what you’ve written.

  16. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 23, 2011 at 6:07 pm // Reply

    Dear Vahram,
    You have put  your finger  on one other  important ¨other reason¨ why this Ottoman inherited brain has preferred to make this ¨sensational¨ sstatement….if  I may,that  of he knows  full well  his that  committment does  not submit great Turkey to any COMPENSATION, since   k u r d s   are in no position to claim on of the main issues the main issue  i.e.,CLAIMS,SUCH AS  RICHES(of families),DESTRUCTION OF  A THOUSAND CHURCHES/MONASTERIES  ETC.,  PLUS  INDEED   L A N D .SINCE  THEY(THE KURDS) ARE STILL ON THEIR LANDS(PARTIALLY,REST BELONGS  TO US OF COURSE)..
    so its  a  cheap shot…does not carry  serious consequences.Todo al revez,all the contrary, it will raise  his prestige in the eyes  of simple Euro-Ams.
    That  is the main objective ,as in the cases  of  St. Giragos Akhtamar.
    As to Baydemir the mayor  of Diarbekir(Tigranakert) I am so much doubtfull of  the sly mindset  of  such diplomats(Turkish) and their  diplomacy  that  even  that  may be ,note I say may be yet another  ¨game¨. Oh this word  just  reminded  me to address a word  or two to :-Sylva.
    Dear Sylva, your political poems are superb and meaningfull.I may, though ask you , mind  you request ,ask you to replace  one  only ONE word , THE LAST  ONE  OF YOUR ABOVE POEM.That  of  ¨game¨  by   G  A  I   N——– 

  17. 1.   Gamatz, Gamatz.

    2.   Many Armenians were killed in Dersim.

    3.   It is a mistake to think that Dersim, 1896, and 1915-1923 are unrelated or separate, even if many Armenians were not murdered there. The use of state power to kill with impunity defenseless civilians is all related – when the govenment learns in 1896 it can kill with impunity, it repeates the crimes over and over.  Jailing dissenters and torturing them, is part of this ancient mind-set and behavior.

  18. Perouz jan.. i voted NO as well and shared the link with everyone.. you are right.. you have to click on the little red box on the left….i am still shocked to know that this monster is being voted to be PErson of theYear..

    Avery jan- well said my friend.. well said… 

  19. Vahram jan- BINGO.. Erdogan is not stupid.. He is like a snake.. He does things ONLY if he knows will help his cause.. we know his tricks, and games already… I just hope the WEST won’t fall for his tricks and games… but knowing how West responds and from seeing how things work, I have a feeling they will follow the carrot that Erdogan is dangling right now..

  20. ‘gaytzag palandjian, it’s really hard to read your writings.’

    Then don’t read them. Nobody is forcing you too. You see  his post, skip it (same as mine). You give yourself license to randomly criticize others’ writing style (mine included): disagreeing with or criticizing one’s position or opinion on subjects  is fair game on these pages. Writing style ?  let everybody worry about their own. Nobody appointed you Editor.

    Mr. Gaytzag Palandjian is close to 80: the fact he is  able to write lucidly and makes the effort to participate in these discussions  is a gift. He does much valuable work for Armenia and Armenians. True,  it takes more mental effort to extract the meaning of his posts, but I have found them to contain much wisdom. 

     

  21. Thank you Andrew for launching this discourse. The key point that you raise is that these comments by Erdogan are a double edged sword…. perhaps for the those who have an affinity for political veneer it is intended to pacify and create a reconciled society. For Armenians, we must view this as another example of an increasingly splintered Turkey. In return for his attempts at “leadership”, he alienates, embarrasses and attacks fellow Turks. Fantastic. Our cause will continue to be one of the enabler of conflict in Turkish society until they comes to term with their criminal past.
         Avery is correct in my view. Stay focused, look at the trends as Andrew points out and let’s not overreact. Deceit always has a shelve life. Our cause will prevail. keep Armenia, Artsakh and the diaspora strong and united.
     

  22. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 23, 2011 at 7:37 pm // Reply

    to  RANDOM ARMENIAN,
    I´m sorry  if  I have missed a letter-such as at the end   of word¨one¨ that came  up as on. Or some  such typographical errors.Reason is my fast typing.I shall be more carefull and more specific.
    BTW. why have  you chosen to be named ¨RANDOM ARMENIAN¨,which leaves ,as  you may full well know,exactly  that.You are  or  you are  not? Armenian?which again I´d add any nationality person here, is as I understand,  from what I gather to post under any name. But  yours  does sort  of  allude  to an Armenian as  TO BE RANDOMLY SO…. 
    if  you are,  then why use  that  word Random. Many  have overlooked  the matter,but  it  is reminiscent  of a few  here-before- that  employed  such names.
    Again,please do not take  this as a critique, but rather  as a  query  that  I ´d would request  you to explain,if  you please.
    Anyhow  , I shall be writing slower from now  on,as much as I can. 

  23. ‘….i am still shocked to know that this monster is being voted to be PErson of the Year..’

    don’t be Gayane: being on the cover of TIME does not mean what most people think it means.  Both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin (twice) have been Person of Year  @TIME.

     

  24. avatar Random Armenian // November 23, 2011 at 10:44 pm // Reply

    Avery,
    I would have stopped reading his posts if I wanted. I’m interested in what everyone is writing.
    Mr. Palandjian, I apologize, what I wrote comes across as rather rude.
    I am Armenian and I prefixed it with Random since I am one of many Armenians here. As far as I know, I am the only person on Armenian Weekly and a few of the other Armenian news sites who uses the handle “Random Armenian”.

  25. Maybe I can’t stand looking at his face Avery jan… especially on an American magazine.. But you are right…

  26. As a Turkish citizen, I believe that this is the most courageous act of a political leader in Turkish political history, in terms of facing our history. I see this as the first move of a set dramatic decisions in Turkish politics regarding our history; I believe Turkish strategists finally realized that there is no way out from our history; we cannot change historical facts jus by denying them. Moreover, in 2011, nobody can explain how we Turks benefit from owning the terrible cruelties of some racist Turks who lived a century ago. Denial does not work, we have to face what we did to Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Jews, all minorities. Not only the racist Ittihat ve Terakke party, but also Ataturk himself declared that Armenians did not have any place on Turks’ lands. We have to face that Ittihat ve Terakki party abused nationalism and put dynamites in the roots of an empire. Ataturk was not a superhero who exalted “Turkishness”, he was a racist dictator who believed in “one state, one language, one nation” (very similar to “ein Fuhrer, ein reich, ein volk”). And now, first time in the history, a Turkish leader (even we like him or not) is apologizing from a minority officially because of a massacre. This is good news. I believe the rest will come naturally. Maybe they won’t use the term “genocide” as they should, but I beleve that Turkey will end up in apologizing from not only Armenians, but also Greeks, Jews and all other minorities that were suppressed by Ottoman Empire or the “modern” Turkish Republic. As a liberal democrat, I personally congratulate Erdogan for this brave move, even though I do not support his political view and his party very much.

  27. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // November 24, 2011 at 7:08 am // Reply

    Please…keep this and clean the first…
    =========================== 
    Our Dear Gaytzag Palandjian,
     
    I wish, I will reach your age
    With an intact brain-cells…like yours 
    Remembering every events 
    Of what I read…what I understood…
    We pray for you to stay 
    Sharing us with your old and new ideas 
    If you want to appoint me a secretary 
    I will stay under your arms 
    But my English is not better than yours 
    I am struggling with my horse 
    To achieve…what i missed in life…
    I’m forced to write not in mother’s tongue…
    Because…we will stay always minorities…immigrants
    Wherever our steps touch… 
    But in all my letter, I do forward 
    My soul is there with yours 
    Hidden …Exhaling pains of the Armenians…,
     
    With many Healthy Wishes for you…for a long life
    I hope you will never Alzheimerate
    Till you sail to your written land…
    Let us know ‘Your Birthday’ 
    We will celebrate with you…
    Hope to read your comments… more and more…
    And enjoy your capital letters 
    That give us an incisive pleasure to continue…
     
    Sylva
    Nonember 24, 2011

  28. avatar Jack Kalpakian // November 24, 2011 at 7:10 am // Reply

    I take a position between Amb. Evans and Avery.   This is a positive development, but it is marred by the very defamatory anti-Armenian references made by the PM.  I support Avery’s approach, but we should be willing to welcome positive Turkish moves.

  29. @ Mehmed, courageous words. I have been actually thinking of another approach and that is instead of us Armenians putting forth the horrors of the Armenian genocide alone, maybe we should also include history of all the Armenians that were saved by courageous Turks like my grandfather and 18 of his family members who were hidden for a week by his Turkish neighbor. Its the only reason they survived. This doesn’t change the horrors or reality of the genocide but says volumes about many Turks who knew that what was going on was wrong and risked their own lives to save Armenians….

  30. Dear Mehmed,
    With all my heart I wish you are right and that Erdogan is taking a courageous step to improve life in Turkey and to face history with justice and truth in his heart.
    As an Armenian, I have nothing against Turks–only Turks who deny the genocide, insult Armenians or have ambitions of overrunning Armenia to link up with Azerbaijan. But my wish re Erdogan is damaged by his reply to the opposition party leader that he wouldn’t apologize to Armenians because he is “not a Diaspora Armenian.”
    For too long Turkey has portrayed Diaspora Armenians as terrorist devils. We are ordinary people, who live thousands of miles away from homeland because we were driven away from that homeland as our parents and grandparents were slain by the Turkish government. All we want is what we are legally and morally owed.
    I will follow Erdogan’s future statements and actions with great interest, and hope your optimism is justified.

  31. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 24, 2011 at 10:54 am // Reply

    Dear Sylva,
    I am moved by your kind words, your heartfelt  health  wishes to me. Rest assured  that I dearly appreciate reading your poetry which convey what  you so deeply feel for  Armenity and Armenia. Please carry  on and I shall be encouraged  by your MEANINGFULL verses!!!
    To Random Armenian. You did  not  have to apolagize to me,you did  not say anything to hurt  my feelins.But  now  that  you have done so,it goes to show THAT YOU ARE A CABALLERO/Gentleman. BTW,I just  went back to your abovde  post  of yesterday.
    Both paragraphs contain very  interesting views.Yes indeed  his(Erdogan´s) stragey is to kill two birds  with one stone(Armenian saying),while trying to settle  issues with  k u r d s  he  is leaving the impression that at long last  their stance  is actually undergoing change(which I personally do not BELIEVE  AT ALL.
    It is like you say  a double edged sword. Following  is  much more important,please bear  with  me ,you et al.-  IT  IS W/REF. TO YOURS AND I QUOTE:-
    ¨THEIR LOSS  OF CONTROL OVER  HISTORIC  NARRATIVE¨ . is quassi  correct(please forgive  me to add)   N E G A T I V E (fake)  narrative. It certainly  is falling apart and they cannot go on  with their Denialism  any  further.
    Now  my bit.-While very cautiously we should indeed observe(not welcome)what their diplomats  are performing(for  it  is like actors performing) NON COMMITTALY(to them  that  is) within lourselves  of courese we can and debate, discuss etc., but  my hint  is to our  diplomats  and or spokesmen  of the Diaspora ,whether official(we still don´t  have) or ex-officio like  Harut Sassounian,always weighing  what  we say, in order not to commmit  any non-corrigible  mistakes.  LIKE  THE ONE  BELOW,please bear ws/me.
    Latest  News  has  it via  Armenian  H1 T.V.an hour  ago..that pres.of great Turkey Mr. Gul has stated   that  the PROTOCOLS  ought to be ratified  by their Parliament!!!
    Apparently in light  of Mr. Erdogan´s   shall we call it   DERSIM DECLARATION, he  (their diplomacy,deep state)finds  it appropriate  to push in the RATIFICATION OF PROTOCOLS, at a juncture ,which is a suitable   now.
    In brief, entrapping  Armenia and Armenians in a trap set  for  us 2 yrs ago….
    Consequences  of which are  very simple to explain.
    1. Thje tri party (powers) have succeeded  in pursuading Armenians  to CONCILLIATION  without COMPENSATION.Promises by great Turkey?  we´ll see.Even  that  is INCOGNITO.
    What a pitty Govt.   of RA  hurried  into  that trap 2 yrs ago  that hastily…
    then what happens  is crystal clear. More Turkish imports  into RA(taking  whatver  dollars  ,Euros  has  been poured  in by poor  workers abroad and given to Gvot. by WB, IMF and benefactors…while they will import   one tenth  of that  from armenia. 
    I regret  very much that they have  not consulted  us in Diaspora  prior to striking  up such deals(read protocols9 .I´m aware  of  Pres. serge Sargsyan´´ BELATED VISIT to France and U.S. of course,which apparently did nothing-even later- TO REVOKE THE PROTOCOLS   on the basis  of  great Turkey  unnecessarily(a  good  lost  chance)DELAYING   RATIFICATION.
    Let  us hope  such errors  will not happen again and that  even at  this 11th hour our diplomacy will act rapidly.
     

  32. Exactly! I heard many good stories from many Armenians that is about how some Turks helped Armenians to hide/run. Hearing these stories from Armenians (especially from the Diaspora) will weaken Turkish nationalists’ hand and encourage good-hearted Turks who do not want blood in their hand. I personally know that the majority of Turks in Turkey does not actually know that a genocide happened; some of them just deny, but some of them really think it did not happen, because of the disinformation lasted about a century! I forgot her name, but an Armenian parliament member in France told a story like that as well; her parents were from Istanbul, and their neighbors helped them to run during the genocide. Moreover, I’d like to remark that this subject is getting more and more popular in Turkey, especially (and unfortunately) after Hrant Dink’s murder. There are millions of people and hundreds of thousands of activists who force the government to find the murderers. Let’s look at the bright side and work together. 

  33. avatar John the turk // November 24, 2011 at 11:51 am // Reply

    Mehmed Namutenacip

    One Armenian poster already expressed the truth. All we want is what we are legally and morally owed. Are you ready to give the 1/3 portion of Turkey to these people and another 1/3 to Greek or Kurdish nationalist? Are you ready to pack and leave for Mongolia as a Turkish liberal where we came from as these Armenian are clearly trouble makers? If you read the Armenian Weekly for a few months you will agree with me.Yes the Turkish society should calm down and the laws must meet the high standards in terms of human rights however, these changes mustn’t extend to the Armenian case as they are history now

  34. Acknowledging that some Armenians were saved by courageous Turks during the horrible years of genocide bears certain moral significance, but it doesn’t diminish the significance of the fact that the Ottoman Turkish government and the prevailing majority of Turks planned, executed, and benefited from the most heinous deliberate extermination of Armenians as a race.

  35. Jack Kalpakian:   God has given us an intellectual ability to distinguish between a political expediency and a ‘positive development’, especially when the two notions are pertinent to Turks, whom Armenians know better than anyone else in the world.  I fully support Avery’s approach.

  36. Erdogan is a very interesting (and most of the time very irritating) political figure. He has serious nationalist roots, that’s for sure, and I condemn some of his rhetoric, including the one which stereotypes Armenians. But, we have to look at the bright side in order to find a solution for both nations; he also is a very brave politician. He is th one who declared Turks that the state is negotiating with PKK (another demonized figure in Turkish political life). Just after he said that, 58% of Turks approved his approach (in another words, told him to go talk to the Kurds) in the famous referendum. I have to say that he has the ability to change Turkish history dramatically. He apologized from Kurds for a massacre, this was a dream just several years ago. And now, he pulled one of the biggest blocks in the “fake Turkish history wall”. The wall will collapse, sooner or later, because not only he pulled the block, but also “time” orders it. It is impossible to hide the lies or hypocrisy in 2011, as the information technology simply unveils everything. Yesterday, an American friend of mine tagged me as John Dolmayan, the drummer of System of a Down, telling me that I looked like him. I told her that “of course we do, we are more or less the same thing!”. I believe a racist party named Ittihat ve Terakki and a dictator which ruled for a couple of decades do not portray all of the Armenian-Turk relationship. I personally know that Armenians were accepted as almost a higher rank than Turks in Ottoman Empire for centuries; there are numberless Armenian grand-viziers (vice-president) in our history. Moreover, Ottomans once were very understanding to other nations, beliefs and cultures; this is why it got very powerful. Once they lost it, they collapsed. You may want to check the ferman (letter) of Mehmed II (the conqueror of Istanbul) to Bosnian Christians. He wrote this in 1463, I believe we Turks can get close to his view in 2011.


  37. Dersim’in Ermenileri
    Yaşam 01 Ekim 2010, Cuma
    Dersim halkının kültürüve Ermenilerin kültürübenzer 70 yıldır bu köyde yaşayan GüzelHanım Ermeni değil, ama “Çok çektik terör zamanı, 12 Eylül’den sonra” diyor, “Korkuyorduk çok, çocuklarımızı götürüyorlardı, işkenceler yaptılar, geceleri pencereleri kapatın, ışıkları açmayın diyorlardı, zorla evden içeri giriyorlardı. Polatlar ve Boztaşlar’ı götürüyorlardı sadece, Ermeni oldukları için”.

    Böyle bir bölgede Ermeni kökenini saklamanın sebebini elbette sadece korkaklık olarak açıklamak zor. Başka bir sebep de aslında Dersim’de yaşayan Ermenilerin çoğunun artık Alevi kültürünü benimsemiş olmaları. Mirhan Prgiç, Harput’ta, Sason’da, Malatya’da az da olsa ismiyle yaşayan Ermenilerin bulunduğunu, ama Dersim Ermenilerinin hepsinin “döndüğünü”” söylüyor ve ekliyor: “Çünkü Dersim halkının kültürü ile Ermenilerin kültürü benziyor.”

    Above article was published in Sabah newspaper in Turkey a year ago. I am pasting it here for those, who can read Turkish to have a better understanding about Dersim and its Armenian population.  Although most writers on this site may not be aware there is a very strong connection between Dersim massacres and the converted -kripto-Armenians. Therefore, although it is understandable why one does not like PM Erdogan, since he is head of the Turkish State, but not giving him credit for this move as an Armenian, is nothing but exhibiting political naivety. The reason he made the negative comments about the Diaspora is, since opposition accused him of being the soldier of the Diaspora and bulking under the pressure created by the Armenian Diaspora. Anyone who has little sense of politics expects that he was going to comment about that to defend his position. Let’s not be naive, things are changing faster then we Armenians realize in Turkey. And change is not going to come in a one wholesome package where most of us Armenians expect to see. Yes, at times maybe two step forward and one step backward but, the only thing I can tell you is that every time the envelope is being pushed further, the truth about history and the Armenian Genocide is being exposed, there is no doubt about that! Can anyone deny that?

  38. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 24, 2011 at 2:55 pm // Reply

    Dear Avery,
    Thanks  for your kind words over estimating  my views.I do what I can to help forge forward our Case/Cause.However, there is plenty more  to be done.What we need  is  co operation.Please do not be  harsh to Random Armenian.He also had a point  as to my hasty badly written posts.What  is more  a gentleman  to apolagize me(not really  needed) He was  right. Now as to this subject matter. Mr  Erdogan has  made it appear  that  he´s doing a big favour to the  k u r d s , while most  know quite well  that HIS APOLOGY  WAS  DUE,rather overdue.So he´is not  really doing somethign great.
    He also realizes  that  what his ancestors  did to Armenians at  that point  of  time,it could be pushed  under the rug(temporarily,rather a long  one  though). But  nowadays  with the IT and more sophisticated  communications  methods it is not possible to do same. Hence he´s fast covering  up at least  this one to what  is more again get them ON HIS SIDE(who knows)  planning  to set  them up against the ermenis…for  that  is how their sly cunning mindset  works.
    Caution  should be excercised  by us .Either  real OFFICIAL APOLOGY TO US,AS  HE DID TO KURDS, OR ELSE  ,we do not accept  these  repair  jobs  on a couple churches etc.,
    simply  not  enough.  

  39. John the turk:  why is invading and capturing of 1/3 portion of Turkey from native Armenians and another 1/3 from native Greeks or Kurds is adequate for you, but giving the stolen lands back to their rightful owners is inadequate?  If the Armenian case is ‘history’, then the Seljuk conquest and Ottoman colonization of these indigenous peoples might one day become history, too.  Be reasonable.

  40. Mehmed Namutenacip:  Armenians were never accepted “as almost a higher rank than Turks in Ottoman Empire for centuries”. Stop disorienting the readers!  Armenians, as well as other Christians and the Jews, were made second-class millet in the Ottoman Empire: voiceless, oppressed, and unrepresentative, subservient to the dominant Muslims.  The only two rights Ottoman Armenians had were the limited practice of Christian religion and the use of national language. Your statement: “there are numberless Armenian grand-viziers (vice-presidents) in our history” is a sheer distortion. Non-Muslims were never allowed to occupy executive positions in Ottoman history. As for Ottomans “who once were very understanding to other nations, beliefs and cultures; and thus got very powerful”, it’s a distortion, too.  Ottomans were not so much ‘understanding’ of other nations, as they were exploitative of native nations: Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, and Jews.  Armenians’ natural wit, shrewdness, and entrepreneurial abilities were exploited in architecture (e.g. Sinan and Balian brothers), business and trade, literature and arts, etc.  In 1894-96 under Abdulhamid and in 1915-1923 under the Ittihadists Armenians received Turks’ ‘gratitude’ for their contributions to the Ottoman state: they were forcibly deported and summarily exterminated as a people. This is how Turks say ‘thank you’ to non-Turks for participating in their nation-building.

  41. I take the advice from Mr.J.Evans, but support and stand with Avery.

  42. John the Turk-  yet again you demonstrate your Anti-Armenian, Genocidal self…. yet another stupid remark.. you intentionally forget that the lands you speak of belong to Armenians before your Tartar seljuk ancestors came down from the Altai Mt and Mongolian Stepps.. please get off your imaginary throne and start using your brain cells for once…

  43. avatar John the turk // November 25, 2011 at 5:57 am // Reply

    Mehmed Namutenacip

    I do not agree with Armenians however, I know exactly what they want. The want eastern Turkey and compensation for the genocide. These two  are nonnegotiable. They also do not like trash talk as they have been waiting fro 96 years so what are you offering to these guys? what is your proposal? 

     

  44. john the Turk

    what is this nonsense of going back to Mongolia and giving away two thirds of Turkey? The point is to have Turkey as a country for everybody! Dont react as if the world is falling down because Erdogan makes a couragerous step in the right direction 

  45. Mehmed Namutenacip

    The eastern vilayets are one thing, but to give compensation for theft and murders? How can any sensible person be against that? 

  46. avatar Gaytzag palandjian // November 25, 2011 at 11:50 am // Reply

    It has been at the back of my mind to mention,however forgetting to do so.Here goes:-
    Most so called  Turkish historians/diplomats, or just  plain citizens bloggers,are very carefull in their statements,blogs etc., not to mention the reality  of the Armenians  having achieved STATEHOOD(which they recognized in 1918) and pretend  that  if they by and by loosen the tight rope so to speak around this notion,it will work better and PERHAPS…..
    ¨we can pursuade  those ermenis  to come live  under our flag¨.
    This  is  of utmost  importance for our Bolsahay types and those  who still are pray to this kind  of  Turkish  sugaar coated  propaganda. I have  facts  to prove  that:-
    1.When Akhtamar  was repaired and ..you know rest,they dropped  hint  that indeed Armenians can come and worship there,once yeaarly , then they will extend  that  to more days   YAVASH YAVASH..although we were still    THERIE  G.D  RAYAS….they close  their eyes  to present  Armenia and its achievements, or Armenian Diaspora  being (my projected) RE-ORGANZIED  AND AROUND OVER A 100,000  PCA´s  with  H  U  G  E  
    NATIONAL INVESTMENT  F  U  N  D. which can do plenty from headquarters  in Geneva CH. Their  INTENTION BEING TO MAKE  IT APPEAR  TO BOLSAHAY  like fokks  that  are content to just go visit  their ancestral lands  churches?  (how  many left) so on so forth.
    They are  very cunning  NOT CLEVER  MIND  YOU(difference  there).The have only produced Killers  not Mikoyans, Saroyans  Saryans  ,shall I go  on khatchaturians,,etc., etc., etc., good labour  yes indeed.that  is why the Mantashian, Lazaryans  ,others  had  in their OIL fields  in Baki turco-+azeri coolies/workers,hard working labour.No scientists.Indeed I don´t  deny they have  now  factories  that  produce  medium class  clothings  shoes  and such like and or heating  systems ,,small not important  Industries.For  the higher scientifically made products  they need  the Ermenis..
    Whom they still hope to trap back!!!
    My Floot!!!!,let the BBB´s Bishops Bosses and Benefactors(Ara Balioziabn  phrase) go and make friendship with them.We shan´t  untill the kneel down and pray at  Tsitzernakapert(they did  that yesterday, a small group,may well  increase,I BELIEVE  IN THAT  VERY MUCH, for  they are  very cunning…
    BUT, please, do NOT ASK FOR COMPENSATIONS, monetary ,real estate, etc., restitutions. You suffered  losses  ,We also did. We are brothers and sisters.Last  phrase actually  was uttered by an  ex  Turkish officer, in a Conf. where Armenian and Truks and others  were attendign  Prof. R.Hovhanisian´s book signing (some 4/6  ex Armenian Vilayets visited  by  him,wife and Turksih professor(woman9 from mid U.S. university who invited  the couple to along…and our dear  prof. without mentipoing  that Armenians  had  lived  there..he was showing slides   that  shoed  Armenian letters on pieces  of slabs from this village  that  town….
    Then in mid conf. when refreshments  served, I approached  this  Turk,already surrounded by others and told him with their style smile,¨you are  right  we must become like brothers and  sisters,like before,we are  neighbours  anyhow…Then I let  him HAVE  IT. thus:-  But  first  let  us settle  the accounts  please…
    he got so agitated  that  left  group muttering accounts  accounts….
    then outside he had told the Young Armenians,small group  ¨tell that  manm¨MEANING  ME..YOU WANT LAND?  COME AND GET  IT!!!
    tHIS REMINDED  ME OF A FAMOUS TURKLISH  GENERAL  KENAN EVREN ,WHEN THE ANGRY ARMENIAN YOUNG  MEN WERE PERFORMING ¨correctional  acts  of violence¨¨..who had said exactly  that!!! Armenians want land come  and  get  it. to which I told the kids  go back and tell  him <´´THIS TIME WE SHALL DO  IT  LEGALLY!!!!
    tO SURMISE  NOW.tHEIR lEADERSHIP,DEEP  STATE, IF  YOU WILL  WILL NOT BUDGE.
    WE MUST AWAIT   their collapse  through interior uprisings,worst  yet NATIONALLY STAGED  S  T  R  I  K  E  S  …so  that  these cruel fascist leadrs  will go away!!! 

  47. John the turk (a very odd combination of a purely Christian Biblical name and a Muslim Turk, I must confess):  Before anything could be worked out to bring peace, stability, and good-neighborly relations to the Turks and Armenians, I believe an apology for the barbarous extermination of a whole people is a must. Before anything else.

  48. Someone said: “The point is to have Turkey as a country for everybody!”  But Turks have a proven historical record of not tolerating having ‘a country for everybody’.  Non-Turks and non-Muslims were indigenous peoples inhabiting Asia Minor.  Look how Turks turned these lands to a country for the Turks only.  Who’s so foolish to believe that after what they have done to the Armenians, Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, Alewis, and the Kurds, Turks would ever wish to have ‘a country for everybody’? To begin with, there can be no such country, because Turks have savagely annihilated everybody who could potentially share the same country with them.

  49. Even if done in the context of attacking and embaressing the opposition party and its leader who is from Tunceli, this mocking disguised as an aplogy from a Turkish prime minister is of course significant.

    The events themselves are not unknown to the public in general though but it has been an “uncomfortable” topic to say the least. Turks remember these dark periods usually in the context of dozens of armed Kurdish rebellions in the early years at a time when the West and Russians still were not so convinced of the legitimacy and reality of the young Turkish Republic. In fact, these events eventually cemented the seperation of Kerkuk from Turks, and ironically pavig the way for a future Saddam gassing Kurds (though British have set the standard for this and never apologized as far as I know!).

    Rebellions were not exactly about rights and freedoms either, as in many cases they were efforts to bring sheria and Khalifate back, in some cases in support of the feudal and tribal systems or a continuation of the disintegaration of the Ottoman lands etc. In any case, Dersim rebellion was massive and took a whole army and airforce to quell it. It was brutal and excessive and by all means should be exposed and analyzed though I am not sure about an apology.

    In my view, the first group of folks that Turkish government should apologize are the victims of the pogroms of 1942 and ethnic violence of 1955, Turkish Jews and Greeks. People who committed no crimes and did not armed themselves against their country and state. What they suffered was truly shameful and remains as a dark stain.

    At some point though it would be to everyone’s interest to focus on fixing the current wrongs rather than rehashing history and reliving events and characters as if things happened yesterday. Strength of emotions(hate?) alone is not a good justification frankly.

    I am naturally not holding my breath for an apology from Kurds for 40K killed, from Russians, from British, French, Greeks or Armenians for all the attrocities they and/or their ancestors committed.

    It is truly amazing that for people who are so interested in applogies and reperations the very thought of them owning up to the dark corners of their history is so alien.

  50. avatar David-california // November 25, 2011 at 8:45 pm // Reply

    Let’s be honest with our Turkish visitors and tell them the truth. First, Turkey needs to return Mt Ararat and at least a reasonable area within the 6 Armenian provinces frequently referred to with only 1 condition (they not be militarised). This would convince Armenians that they are serious in wanting reconciliation. It is both a cultural and religious monument to Armenia and It’s return would also enhance Turkey’s image and improve their standing in the eyes of the world. Secondly, it’s my understanding that the Turks confiscated about $3.5 bill (1915 figures) of property and businesses from the armenians. It’s important for both Mehmed and John (is that really your name?) to understand that we armenians were Turkish citizens at that time. I’ll have to leave the calculations of the current amount of that $3.5 bill (at 2012 prices-of course with interest) to a financial type to calculate-but it’s a lot of money. Since it shouldn’t be an effort to over-burden or humiliate the Turks, I suggest the Germans assist with the payments since they were eyewitnesses to the slaughter and their railroad was used to transport (and dump) half-dead Armenians in the desert to die. They are very experienced in these matters (Genocide) and can soften the impact of those reparations. I think it’s great that good Turks like Mehmed (and even “John”) join the discussion and I’m afraid Nazim the azeri may have been criticised too severely and went away. It’s only by talking to people we disagree with that we can progress the dialogue. If we all agree, there isn’t much to discuss. Here (US), we call that “preaching to the choir”. We were good turkish citizens (though discontent living as 2nd class dhimmi) and you slaughtered and robbed us of our lives and wealth. We don’t want anymore from you than you stoled from us. Isn’t that only fair? Even an “apology” at this point, though appreciated, would be hollow without substantial action on these matters.

  51. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // November 25, 2011 at 10:35 pm // Reply

    Read about …”Armenian Went about Double genocide”
    Double is not enough…Should be  100s’ What they are doing for Kurds in this century…They did to us…
    ============================================================
    ANKARA. – Turkish main oppositional Republican People’s Party (CHP) leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu spoke on Turkish PM Erdogan’s apology regarding Dersim slaughters.
    Kilicdaroglu stated that PM’s apology is not enough, calling on the authorities to open the archives, Turkish Milliyet reports. 
    “The documents that Erdogan shows are not new. I read them in 1970s. Apology is not enough, archives should open. Families deported from Dersim should be given back their property and compensated material losses. I asked documents from archives but no one gave me them. Please, make these documents available for public,” Kilicdaroglu said.
    It was earlier reported that Turkish PM apologized for Dersim massacres. “If there should be an apology on behalf of the state I can do it and I am apologizing,” PM stated.
    Besides, Erdogan blamed Republican People’s Party (CHP), claiming that it was on the reign at that time.
    Various sources claim that about 100000 people were killed in the slaughters. Armenians escaped from the 1915 Genocide and sheltered in Dersim villages, underwent double genocide in 1938.

  52. Mehmed Namutenacip, you sound like an intelligent person. But John the Turk has it right. You are also naive. And I also have to thank David-california for his honesty. So, Mehmed, read David’s post very carefully. If you expect that you can smoothen things over with warm fuzzy words and hug each other with the Armenians and be BFF (best friends for over), and thereby feel superior in your sensibilities to your brethren, you are dead wrong. Nothing short of moving out of your home, handing the keys to them, and, wait, paying them about $500 BILLION for compensation will do it. David, I just took your $3.5B and applied 5% interest for 100 years.

    To the credit of Armenians, they have never been secretive about their game plan. Genocide recognition is just a first step. After that comes, territorial and monetary compensation, etc. Lawsuits in US courts to freeze Turkish assets, etc. are part of the game. Again, Mehmed, your thinking is utterly naivel. You forget that you are blood enemies with them. Even if you give everything they ask for, they will still hate you, and perhaps even more. More because they will be emboldened by your weakness and feel even more justified.

    And to the Armenians, even if your territorial claims are justified, the world would be a total chaos if everyone else did the same thing you did. Nations would lay terriotorial claims going back 10000 years ago (imagine the case the Assyrians could make against everybody), or the claims Turkey could make against Ukrain in Crimea, or the poor case of the Hungarians. The world would be burning in conflagration. Luckyly, Armenians are in minority in terms of choosing an arbitrary point in history for deciding who owns what land. Your Tigran the Great. For how long did his empire last? 50 years? For 50 years, 2000 years ago?! Why stop at 2000 years? Who was there before you? Should their “descendents” not descend upon you too: “Not so fast, amigos! We were there 3000 years ago!.”

  53. Ragnar.. yes you are right.. making Turkey a country for everyone… but first they have to return everything they stole from Armenians starting with Mt. Ararat… once ARmenians receive what they were robbed for, then Turkey can think about becoming the democratic country that she keeps portraying to the world but is still in the Ottoman years… so please stop this “lets hold hands and sing kumbaya”… Turkey has an obligation to make things right .. Armenians and Greeks are demanding… we are not asking anymore…enough is enough..

  54. Paul jan… it is very odd to have a Turk using a very Christian name is not it? but that is how they are.. we have another one.. Robert the Turk…even with their Christian and Westernized Names they are the worst of them all.. neo denialists…their comments speak volumes…

  55. As a diasporan Armenian, I do not want Erdogan in my basket.

  56. Kerim,  Armenians are not playing a ‘game’.  We are seeking justice.  Understand that Ottoman Turks committed a murderous crime that under Ataturk’s leadership, was swept under the rug of the Turkish national superiority complex and that Turks today are still benefiting from the ill-gotten gains of their ancestors.  
    What compensation for this crime, which did not occur in ancient history, but within modern memory, would you suggest?
     
     

  57. you are back Kerim: you said you had written your last post @AW in another thread. I guess you can’t even keep your own promise. You lied. Do you admit you lied and do you promise not to lie again ?
     
     
    On to the business at hand.
    First, on your illogical and false advice to Mehmet : Even if you give everything they ask for, they will still hate you, and perhaps even more.’
    Give us some evidence or examples of hate directed at individual Turks by us.
    In actuality, the ones who hate are many Turks. Visit TodaysZaman and Hurriyet sometime and read what your fellows Turks write directed at Armenians.
    Here is a snippet of  ‘love’ one  of your Turk countrymen (‘Necati Genis’)  left @AW  a while back: 
    {sorry to tell you..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians…this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians. you made me an animal.}  (part of long post, with other choice words, which I left out)
    There are huge numbers of Anti-Armenian hateful Turks like Necati commenting @TZ and @HDN regularly. Spend some time there before manufacturing lies about Armenians hating ordinary Turks.
     
     
    More because they will be emboldened by your weakness and feel even more justified.’
    Nope, quite the opposite: I can’t speak for other Armenians, but my educated guess is that if Turks return a healthy portion of our lands, e.g. non-negotiable Mount Ararat and strategic  access to the Black Sea, most of us  will be deflated: the fight will go out of us. There will be tremendous external and internal pressure on Armenians to accept a “Good Deal”, and go on to better things.
     
     
    Second, before you start dispensing historical advice, learn about history first, specifically Armenian history.
    Armenians are indigenous to Armenian Highlands. We are a product of  intermixing of  indigenous pro-Armenian peoples that inhabited the region.
    Our history has been  traced back  to our pro-Armenian roots to about 5,000 years – at this time.
    If  other  peoples can convincingly  show they were there before us, I am sure we Armenians will  work with them to return their lands to them.
    In your case, it is a hard historical fact that there were NO  Turks in Asia Minor prior to about 1,000 AD. (they were about 3,000 kilometers to the East). There is even a very specific date 1071:The Battle of Manzikert (Մամազկերտ – Manazkert), near today’s City of Van: too bad for you Turks there is hard evidence against you.
     
    As to chaos, rights, etc. Jews were expelled from their homeland by  the Roman Empire 2,000 years ago. After wandering the world for 2,000 years, getting wealthier, politically stronger, they came back to their homeland.
    World Powers and UN legally gave them back a portion of their ancestral homeland. The State of Israel was legally established on land that at the time was populated for about 2,000 years by non-Jews. This happened in 1948. There have been wars, true. But Israelis still here. More powerful than ever.  And the World is still here.
      
     
    We Armenians were not just expelled from our Western Armenian homeland: we were wiped out. A mere 100 years ago.
    Unfortunately for you Turks, you guys screwed up: didn’t finish the job. Enough of us escaped and survived to regenerate into 12 million Worldwide.
    Getting wealthier and stronger every year. Have no doubt – We will return.

  58. David-california:  A correction. “We Armenians were Turkish citizens at that time.” And then again, “We were good Turkish citizens”.  The following is more accurate: We Armenians were [colonized] Ottoman citizens at the time. We were good [second-class] Ottoman citizens.

  59. People who think that Erdogan’s “apology” for Dersim puts him on track to eventually offer an apology for the Armenian Genocide should think again. It is full of contradictions and is more likely a rehearsal for successfully avoiding the issue on the 100th anniversary. He says, “IF an apology is required on behalf of the state. . . . IF such precedents exist, I am apologizing”. Is that a real apology? ?  Then he goes on to say, ” If someone is to apologize for this tragedy it is not the government but the CHP [who should apologize].” If he is not apologizing for the government, who is he apologizing for?  So, that is our “official Turkish apology”! One can only imagine how many fingers he will point in how many different directions in 2015!
    To get a further idea of the kind of confusion that some of Turkey’s leading intellectuals fall into when asked to take a clear moral position, consider the following from one of its brightest, Ali Birand (Nov. 21) in addressing the Armenian Genocide”
    “We cannot save ourselves by saying, “It was not us; the Ottomans did it.” The 100th anniversary of the Armenian incidents is nearing. If we do not take a step, then others will wrongly judge us and tag the crimes on us. We would be hurt in a much more bitter way.”
    While calling for forthrightness, he uses the same old, evasive phrase, “The Armenian incidents”. Then he refers  
    to “crimes” which he does not wish to see blamed on “us”. If crimes were committed then who is to be blamed if not Turkey? He has not exactly shined a bright light on the escape hatch for Erdogan or any other political leader. 
    Erdogan “apologizes” for Dersim and the airwaves fill up with chatter. But poor Ragip Zarakolu is still rotting away in prison, all but forgotten. . . .  Was that perhaps the point?

  60. Even if we suppose that by offering an apology for Dersim the Turkish government is preparing a mollifying gesture for the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide in 2015, it is all the more important to underscore our rightful reparations and retribution demands.  Turkish government must understand that the catastrophe that befell the Armenians is so immense that a mere apology cannot bring relief to the nearly-annihilated nation. 2 million savagely slaughtered and starved to death innocent human beings, half a million forcibly deported people, houses, pastures, private properties, bank accounts, insurance indemnities, cultural and civilizational structures and artifacts, and deep moral and psychological trauma still haunting the descendants have a ‘value’ far exceeding a mere apology.

  61. 1. Turkey created the diaspora and its denial of the Armenian Genocide fuels diasporan anger toward Turkey.  Turks are cowards for not admitting this guilt and for denigrating the victims instead.  It is shameful.

    2.  After this admission of guilt in the Dersim massacres, does Erdogan still claim that it is impossible for a Muslim to commit genocide?

    3.  The admission of guilt for the deaths of over a million Ottoman Armenians is getting closer ever day.

  62. Gayane, you say: “…Turkey a country for everyone… but first they have to return everything they stole from Armenians starting with Mt. Ararat.”

    Your premise for this statement is that your ancestors lived in the area of Mt. Ararat for a very long time. This is of course a fact. But living on a land is not the same thing as owning it. Otherwise, all the apartment renters, having lived in a place for 100 years, would call it their. What proof do you have that your ancestors’s ancestors actually had a legal title to these lands? From 2000 years ago? Now if such claims were legitimiate, then you should vacate California because it once belonged to the Native Americans. But not so fast! You should actually pay (yes, you, the modern inhabitants of CA) them a compensation for the Genocide! Which brings up … How sad of the US to demand of Turkey to recognize a Genocide, when it itself has been founded upon a Genocide!

    But all this is beside the point. How do you expect to make Turkey give up the land it has owned for over 1000 years!? What, through passing some pathetic legislation in the US congress? See, it is not through your own strength that you want to get from Turkey what you want, but through parasitism of a different nation, the US.

  63. TYPO: ‘pro-Armenian peoples’ should be ‘proto-Armenian peoples’

  64. avatar Random Armenian // November 27, 2011 at 1:27 pm // Reply

    I think Murat is missing an important point here. If innocent civilians were killed when it could have easily been avoided or if punishing the group through mass killings was the goal, then an apology is required. You seem to be looking for excuses and reasons to get out of facing Turkey’s dark past. “If they were rebelling, then it might have been justified” is what’s insinuated here.

    If one side keeps complaining while the other side had come to terms with it’s history and even apologized, then you could rightfully make the claim of rehashing history. But Turkey’s response to its history has been deny, deny, deny and hide, hide, hide.
    Murat, you also left out one important issue, Turkification. I wonder if people in Turkey were resisting ethnic and cultural homogenization? Here’s an interesting article on this topic:
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=genie-out-of-bottle-on-facing-up-the-past-2011-11-25

  65. Israel’s Knesset puts the discussion of the Armenian Genocide recognition issue back on its agenda in early December 2011.

  66. Avery, ok, your post makes sense. I think actually the Turks would accept the Genocide if there believed that your demands were reasonable and not maximalist. As for giving up land, again, on paper, it makes perfect sense. And sounds fair. But let’s be realists … what country on earth would give up a land it has owned for over 1000 years, without a war? Do you really think this could really really happen? I undersand and sympathize with the Armenian affection for Mt. Ararat. And if it was up to me, I would give it to the Armenians, since it matters to Armenian than to the Turks. But … again, in real practice, this could never happen.

    So there is a saying: don’t let the perfect become the enemy of possible. By being maximalists or posing unrealistic demands, you make it practically impossible for any non-suicidal reasonable Turkish politician to accept the Genocide. The cost of doing it is unacceptable to them. And you need to also be realistic about your own chances. Why burn so much energy on an impossible mission. Settle for the possible: demand the Genocide recognition, negotiate a large amount of blood money for the victims’ familities, open the border with Turkey, and relax the border regime so that any Armenian could go and see Mt. Ararat on any day on a bus and even immigrate there and live there.

  67. Kerim, you’re back with more crap such as “living on a land is not the same thing as owning it”? You mean to say that throughout 4000+ years of Armenians’ living in the Armenian Plateau there was such a thing as “land ownership” that Armenians somehow missed to file for legally? Do you know of any example of “legal ownership” on the habitat for any people on Earth? It’s widely accepted that the ownership on a land is secured by the existence of historical records, by civilizational, cultural, architectural, and material heritage left on it by a particular ethnos. If living on a land “is not the same thing as owning it”, then why Ottoman Turks were so enraged when the Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Arabs, and other native inhabitants kicked them out of the Balkans and the Middle East? After all, Turks, as descendants of Ottoman invaders, did live on those lands for several centuries, did they not? But were those lands ever originally Turkish? If living on a land “is not the same thing as owning it”, then Turks must be the first to abandon the lands they now live on and go back to the Mongolian steppes and the Altay mountains where they’ve originated. How do you prove that Turks actually “own” these lands? Do you hold a notarized Certificate of Ownership? Or you think military invasions, conquests, and colonization represent the proof of ownership? As for vacating California because it once belonged to the Native Americans, use a few of your brain cells to understand that Armenians living in California did not come as nomadic warriors from Central Asia, invaded, scorched, looted, colonized, and then physically annihilated the natives. The Europeans who came to the New World did commit atrocities against Native Americans, but the U.S. government had courage to acknowledge them, grant equal civil rights to Indians, offer the same opportunities, secure vast reservations protected by law, and even build the Museum of the American Indian next to the U.S. Capitol. Adversely, cowardly Turks cannot even acknowledge their own wrongdoings against the Armenians for almost 100 years. You write: “How do you expect to make Turkey give up the land it has owned for over 1000 years!?” Turkey did not “own” these lands for 1000 years; Turks conquered, colonized, and then emptied those lands of the native inhabitants in the most barbarous ways. Do you appreciate the difference? One possibility to make Turkey acknowledge her genocidal crimes is the threat of division of the Turkish state. Kurds and Zazas are there and they get stronger. If the mighty Soviet Union collapsed, Turkey is too minor a country vulnerable to disintegration. About parasitism. If you think efforts at international recognition of the Turkish crime is parasitism, remember how Turks hid behind the Germans’ back to commit mass extermination of Armenians. Are you proud of your genocidal nation, Kerim?

  68.   Kerim, your comments to Gayane are beyond absurd, but using your logic, Turkey is the ultimate “renter” as the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor and Anatolia( I’ll use the generic terms) were forcibly “evicted” one by one…. Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians etc. Your “rental” agreement has been to assimilate or perish.
             Our people were contributing to world civilization in many dimensions centuries before the destroyers invaders the builders. You ask about “legal title”. There is amble documentation for such and it is called history… a factual representation of the past.
             My suggestion is that you focus your energy on educating yourself. You seem to be a student of the great Ottoman/Kemalist charade of reality. Look at the trends. Your denial strategy is failing. Just look at the content of these discussions that have the official Turkish position of decades challenged by an increasing number of their own people.
           By the way you criticize Gayane. You would do better to listen to her. She represents the spirit that genocidal Turkey could not extinguish. Your strategy has failed. We are stronger. The truth will always prevail.

  69. Kerim the Turk.. ANOTHER YET IDIOTIC comment by you.. in which you mention so many UNRELATED topics to what is being discussed here.. STOP USING OTHER EXAMPLES TO DETER FROM WHAT YOUR COUNTRY IS RESPONSIBLE AND MUST PAY FOR….

    Go read Avery’s well written and in detail post before your idiotic and denialist post.. Avery explained to you in detail as to where Armenians came from and where your barbaric ancestors came from..

    And comparing US Genocide to Armenian Genocide is really getting old.. dont’ you people give up???? THESE TWO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER except US apologized and to this day pay for their deeds.. why do you think there are Native American Reservations all over the US and point in case.. your lying and denialists country is kissing US butt by offering ALOT OF money to be able to invest with Native American entities… talk about HYPOCRASY… 

    You Turk Denalists are afraid of WEST and Diaspora.. we know it.. we see it.. we hear it.. we smell it… which is why you denialists do everything to take the spotlight away from you by putting down and threaten other countries for your own benefit.. but we know a smily snake when we see one.. and your govt is one including people lik you… PURE denialists…..

    Nice try but no carrot for you sir…

              

  70. Turkey seems to forget that we are not just the Armenian diaspora, but we are also the Turkish diaspora, as most diasporan families originated in Turkey. In the aftermath of Hrant’s murder, many thousands of Turks held signs saying, We are all Armenians. I don’t think anyone in Turkey can or will forget that, including Erdogan.  It was a profound moment and has changed everything. However, we need to change as well, by bending with the winds of change and adapting. We’ve done it before, and we can do it now, for the tree that does not bend in the wind, will break under the stress. That’s a risk we cannot take.

  71. @John the Turk: Of course I am not ready to give one third of Anatolia to Armenians, Kurds or Greeks; I find that argument ridiculous; as those lands have been home for Armenians, Kurds, Turks and other nations for centuries under Ottoman Empire for centuries. Besides, if you believe Turks need to give “the lands” back to their “real owners”, you should also claim that many lands including North America, South America, Australia must be returned immediately, which is not an argument to be taken serious in real politics. You should also keep in mind that Turkish nationalists and conservatives are still hiding the genocide truth because of arguments like yours; you are serving their benefits.

    @Kerim: I believe being naive is claiming land from Turkey because of the genocide in 2011. I believe there must be compensations, but again, your methodology seems a little weird to me, especially regarding the financial part. Turks and Armenians are not “blood enemies”, you just assume they are. Hundreds of thousands marched in Istanbul when Hrant Dink was killed, total Armenian population in all Turkey is around 60.000. You may want to check history as well; making a decision about two nations just looking at the very last part of the history is not fair, especially if we are talking about bonds which goes back more than 500 years ago ;)

    Armenians, Turks, Kurds, Americans, Russians, Germans, Colombians are people, they are not homogenous  societies who are responsible for every single crime in their history. Any argument which puts every member of a society in “one basket” is stereotyping, and as bad as Erdogan’s “basket” analogy. Turks and Armenians do not have to be enemies.

    Erdogan apologized from Kurds and that is good thing, we should support him on this. He mentioned Armenian Diaspora as if it is a curse word and that’s a terrible thing; we should condemn his behavior. We should encourage his apologetical rhetoric, and criticize his chauvinist words. 

  72. @Paul: The word “Turk” was mostly used as an insulting adjective meaning “redneck”, “ignorant”, “farmer” etc. in Ottoman Empire most of the cases. In his famous speech (Nutuk) even Ataturk says “Turks who have been suppressed under the Ottoman rule for centuries finally seized the governance”. Non of the Sultans were pure Turkish, almost every single mother was non-Turkish. On the other side, being Armenian was a good thing, as Armenians were famous for their hardworking, skills in technics, knowledge etc. This is why many Armenians worked in many critical positions in the administration and army. These facts are not secrets, you can access them with a few google searches. Demonizing Ottomans & Turks will not serve Armenians’ benefits. 

  73. Well Said Paul jan…apres..

    Stepan jan.. AMEN TO THAT.. and hence why the denialists are afraid of people like us.. because our fight will never die and we will never give up… that scares the crap out of these denialists.. they can’t get rid of us like their ancestors did from 1894-1924… NEVER AGAIN… 

    Gayane

  74. Karekin.. lav eli.. are we blowing the same tune again about bending and adapting.. are you referring to Armenians??? if so, consider your comment ignored because we already talked this subject to death.. Armenians will not and can not bend  ANYMORE… 100 years is a long time…

  75. When the other side descends into name-calling, then you know you have touched a nerve. You call me stupid, idiotic because of, essentially, this statement: it is utter nonsense to expect a modern country to voluntarily give up 1/3 of its large territory because another nation CLAIMS that over 1000 years ago they “owned” the land.

    Are you so blinded by your misguided patriotism that you fail to see how unrealistic and even laughable this claim is? Do you really not realize what kind of a chaos this kind of claims would cause in the world if practiced by others. E.g., Russian Republic would be the first to dissolve into 1/100 of its terriotory, Hungary (the descendants of whom you’d call “barbarian” Huns) would be disbanded. France and Spain would split up, the US (Texas back to Mexico), UK … do I need to continue? Or are you claiming some kind of an Armenian exceptionalism? Why? Because of the Genocide? Which makes one wonder (not really in fact) whether you are using the Genocide recognition as a means or an end.

    And besides, what are you going to do with all that land? You don’t even have enough people willing to live in the tiny land of Armenian Republic. Are you going to give up your coze livelihood in California? Or is all this some kind of a fantasy game to center your identiy around? You know, it would all be fun and game, if not for the fact that the poor Armenians stuck in Armenian are the ones paying the price of your maximalist daydreams. They have ruined relationship with Turkey, which is destroying their economy, etc. The sad thing is, even they themselves are part of the fantasy. So blinded one can be by a fantasy.

  76. Kerim says [Nov. 27]: “Settle for the possible: demand the Genocide recognition, negotiate a large amount of blood money for the victims’ familities, open the border with Turkey, and relax the border regime so that any Armenian could go and see Mt. Ararat on any day on a bus and even immigrate there and live there.”  That does not sound unreasonalbe to me and sounds pretty close to a resolution. I don’t see why he should be vilified as a “terrible Turk” by so many. If we can’t distinguish a thinking Turk from a fascist jerk we will have no one to talk to. And all this “go back to central Asia” stuff is pure racism. That will never produce a solution; it is simply the mirror image of Turkish racist chauvinism. But a corrective to the pro-Turkish commenters: the reason that Turkey is having such a hard time admitting to genocide against the Armenians is not how much they might lose in terms of land or money. It is because the Turkish state cannot handle the truth and its implications. If Turkey recognizes and apologizes for the Armenian Genocide tomorrow, there is no legal instrument that would automatically entail any restitution. The perpetrators of the Genocide are dead and gone. The only challenge is the moral one for a State that until now has been kept afloat by a massive tissue of lies that goes on producing violence and oppression. It is time to end that cycle. I am sure Kerim would be one of the first to celebrate its demise.

  77. mehmed Namutenacip:  What are the “critical positions in the administration and army” that, as you misguide our readers, the [Ottoman] Armenians were working in? By “critical positions” English-speakers understand “mid- to high-level” or “executive” positions in a field. Who were “many” Armenians that were allowed by dominating Muslim Turks to occupy “mid- to high-level” or “executive” positions in the Ottoman administration? Who were “many” Armenian generals who were allowed to serve in the Ottoman army, if we accept that general is a “critical” position? You deliberately distort the historical truth in that all non-Turkish and non-Muslim indigenous peoples of Asia Minor, whom the Ottomans made voiceless millets, were not allowed to occupy any position that would be higher than the one occupied by a Turk. If an Armenian was not allowed to mount a horse in order not to be taller than a pedestrian Turk, do you really believe that a Turk could allow an Armenian to occupy a higher administrative position? Most of the arguments that are made by Turks on these pages are so ridiculous, so absurd! I don’t need to do google search for these obvious historical facts; I’ve read enough literature on the topic and have heard enough stories from my grandfather to know how oppressed the Armenians were under the Turks and Kurds, especially in the rural areas. How insolent a person should be to visit an Armenian online publication and tell us fairy tales about “many” Ottoman Armenians occupying “critical positions in the administration and army.”? No wonder that the word “Turk” was used in the Ottoman Empire to denominate an ignorant person, as you just revealed.

  78. “Turks and Armenians do not have to be enemies”, says mehmed Namutenacip. Then, what’s the matter? Pressure your government to offer an apology for the genocidal extermination of Armenians and we could drop animosity towards unrepentant Turkish state. Or even more feasible suggestion. Are you ready to apologize on your own behalf as an individual Turkish human being for the crimes of your forefathers? Can you? Let’s check how willing you are on the personal level not to have Armenians as enemy to Turkey.

  79. BTW, I would like to say that I cannot understand the level of reaction to Kerim. He does not deny the genocide, he just suggests a better strategy. I now understand better why my Armenian friends from Istanbul were complaining about the Diaspora being overreacting and making the lives of Armenians in Turkey harder. If you cannot talk to Turk who does not deny the genocide without harassing/insulting him/her, how do plan to solve the matters with conservative Turkish politicians? Do you want to make lives of Armenians in Turkey or Armenia better or not? Cursing to Turks, demanding lands, offering nothing but deadlock will be condemned by the Turks and Armenians who want a solution. If you cannot have a decent discussion with an apologetic Turk who does not deny the genocide, how will convince the world to be on your side? Believe it or not, there are millions of Turks who are ready to apologize. Why won’t you have a strategy to make then do it? Nationalist Armenian and Turkish arguments are the biggest obstacles before a proper apology. Always keep in mind that the Turks who did the genocide were members of the racist Ittihat and Terakki party, whose political opinions are now accepted as extreme in Turkey, unlike many Western countries such as France, Italy and Germany; this is our chance, let’s not ruin it.

  80. Mehmed, Kerim and others,

    The one thing that no one mentioned here is the actual deeds of the lands and buildings (tapu’s) that belonged to Armenians before the Genocide. (So much for renters vs owners arguments…) These documents I believe are kept under lock and key by the National Security Council (MGK), or another military organization. Can you think of why this type of documents would not be available at a civil branch of the government? At any rate, does it not make sense to include the current value of these as part of any reparation? What do you think?

  81. Those of  us  who  have not  read the HDN article  Random referenced, definitely should.
    I have pasted one chilling paragraph below:
     
    {A: Obviously the state was right to launch the operation. But what is unacceptable is the way the operation was conducted. Disproportionate force was used when you compare it to the small dimension of the resistance shown. The operation not only targeted those who had shown resistance but to all the civilians in the region. In the summer of 1937, the whole situation had been taken under control but the state started using excessive force. People in the villages were gathered and executed. The Munzur River was said to have turned red because of the mass executions. The caves where people were hiding were gassed. Women were raped.}
     
    Each sentence is a tiny blueprint of what they did to our people.

  82. Good observations on Erdogan’s non-apology ‘apology’, Diran. At least one Kurd is not buying it either:
    { “His conditional use of the word, ‘If,’ at the beginning of his so called apology is quite telling.  He doesn’t mean it; he doesn’t feel it.  Dersim continues to remain disenfranchised as ever. Seventy or so years after the infamous massacre, it is now being buried by water due to the dams that the government of Turkey is building in the region. If he really means what he says, he would listen to people still living instead of just apologizing for the dead.  I guess he knows the Roman saying, ‘The dead can not bite’,” Xulam said.} (Kani Xulam – Kurdish activist, director of American-Kurdish Information Network (AKIN). (source News.am)

  83. Okay, I will write this in capital letters because we–Armenians–don’t seem to get it. I ask everyone in this forum to please read what I will write below, and stop shooting ourselves in the foot with easily refutable arguments:
     
    Our land claims have nothing–NOTHING–to do with compensation for the genocide. As stated by Taner Akcam, territorial compensation for war crimes has no basis in international law, including the Genocide convention.
     
    Our land claims have to do with THE TREATY OF SEVRES, which remains legal to this day.
     
    Please, understand this: the more we link land claims to the genocide, the more we open ourselves up to counterarguments like “let’s be realistic, etc. etc.”
     
    Our land claims are based in law–LAW–not morality.
     
    So please, STOP lumping in land claims when talking about the genocide. The land claims are based–I’ll say it again until we get it–in LAW.

  84. Functionary,
    Armenian claims of the Treaty of Sevres have no meaning anymore. They havent since 1924. The Treaty of Lasuanne superseded the Treaty of Sevres. Also the Treaty of Alexandropol between Turkey and Armenia repealed the Treaty of Sevres. If you want to hate Turkey, by all means go ahead, but get the facts right.

  85. The methods and rationales used by the state in 1937-1938 are the same as those used in 1894-1896, 1909, 1915-1923 etc. Women and children jumped into rivers to avoid rape and being burned alive. 

    The same perpetrators, and many of the same victims: civilians, and Armenian civilians in many instances at that. The continuous Turkish state taught itself that state murder works very well. It is a successful tactic. Daniel Goldhagen recommends that there be a multi-state armed froce ready on probable cause to intervene and kill the killers.
     
    While those who abhor Genocide from a safe distance say “Never again,” tyrants say to themselves: “Who, after all, remembers the Armenians, Jews, Slavs, Ukrainians, Cambodians, Incas, et al.?

  86. Diran: ‘And all this “go back to central Asia” stuff is pure racism.’

    Please reference who in this thread said  “go back to central Asia”   to Turk posters.
    And, sorry, but  having permission from someone to visit Mt. Ararat is not reasonable.
    A permission can be withdrawn anytime, and the point is not to visit Mt. Ararat.
    If you and others don’t get what is it for Armenians about Mt. Ararat, then you don’t get it: can’t be put in words.

    And as to what is possible or not: just before the mighty Soviet Union disintegrated, nobody would have thought it possible. 
    When in 1988 Armenians by the million were peacefully assembled  in Yerevan asking Azerbaijan SSR  to “let our NKR people go”, not many could have imagined the possibility of independent Armenia, and free, secure, independent Artsakh.

    Many things are possible that were previously thought to be  impossible.

    BTW: in another thread a Turk or a Turk agent popped up using the handle ‘jda’,
             the same handle as the real Armenian ‘jda’ that used to post
             regularly here months ago. 
     

  87. RVDV:  Dead wrong comment. The Treaty of Sevres is the only treaty signed between the legitimate governments of Turkey and Armenia; therefore it does have a meaning until now. Armenia was not, repeat: was not a signatory to the Treaty of Lausanne. The Treaty of Sevres was not superseded by the Treaty of Lausanne: there is no single provision in the Treaty of Lausanne that attests to this. The Treaty of Alexandropol did not repeal the Treaty of Sevres: there is no single provision in the Treaty of Alexandropol attesting to this. Besides, the Treaty of Alexandropol was signed on December 2, 1920 between two non-subjects of international law: illegitimate regime of Turkish revolutionaries on the one hand and illegitimate regime of a country (Democratic Republic of Armenia) that already ceased to exist in November of 1920, when Armenia was Sovietized. If you want to hate Armenians for physically annihilating the nation of Turks nation and stealing their ancestral homeland and culture in central Asia, by all means go ahead, but get the facts right.

  88. RVDV, Mehmed, Kerim, etc…

    Why do Turks interpret the fact of Armenians seeking justice for genocide as a sign that we hate Turkey and Turks?  Is one required to hate those he seeks justice from? Perhaps one simply hates the crime and the injustice?  

    I ask Turks to re-examine their knee-jerk response to Armenians’ efforts for restitution of what was heinously taken from us.

    Besides, love and hate really has little to do with the issue between us.  It is a problem of justice.  Even those I hate have equal rights before the law.  My love or hate for others does not change the rights they are endowed by virtue of their humanity. 

    I hate stupidity.  I hate blind denial.  I hate bigotry.  I hate ignorance.  I don’t hate Turks.

  89. Gayane – yes, the idea of ‘bending w/ the wind’ is directed at Armenians, but not in the way you seem to interpret.  The winds of change are blowing across the world, and as we can see from Erdogan’s words, they are also reaching Turkey. They will reach Armenians, too, as the 100th anniversary date creeps up, and everyone needs to be open and willing to embrace and encourage the positive aspects of these winds. Clinging to a branch on a tree that is being innundated by flood water only means you will drown, no matter how hard you cling…you really should be moving to a higher branch.  The waters/winds of change are gathering speed. If we cannot adjust, then we will either be left behind or will get swept away. Neither option is worthy of digging in your heels. Unfortunately, the diaspora mentality, in many ways, has been frozen in time and place, and on recreated a history that has passed.  Yes, we have an ancient and great history in Asia Minor, and it should be remembered not just by Armenians, but by Turks, as well,  but you can’t just selectively choose bits and pieces of that history, and ignore the rest, or to hope you can revive it from a distance. How much time have you spent in Turkey?  If you’re really so imbued and enthralled with our culture, you need to go there and experience it first hand, because in many ways, it is still very much alive and very authentic, not the watered down, ersatz culture of Los Angeles. You will find that there is alot of commonality to discover. You will also see and experience things you might not expect…books in shop windows on Armenian topics, Armenian music featured in music stores, a vibrant Armenian community that is both Armenian and Turkish to their core. No one is saying that anyone should ignore the past, but when Armenians are focused only on one aspect of it and Turks completely ignore, whitewash or twist it for nationalistic reasons, there is alot of room to bend on both sides and that is what is required so we can all move towards the future together, with a clean heart and mind.  Yes, maybe it’s a pipedream, but what’s the alternative?  I think the status quo in the world has been discredited across the board. Turkey knows and sees this…and so should we.

      

      

      

  90. @Ani, I actually mentioned that I believe compensation is necessary, and compensation must include -but not be limited to- returning the goods, plots and properties back. That does not mean that Turkey should give “a city” back, therefore I believe Armenians should have a better strategical rhetoric when they demand compensation, that’s all I’m saying. Nobody could even dream that a Turkish PM apologizes from Kurds for any reason just a five years ago, so yes, I believe many archives including General Stuff’s will be opened in due course. But Armenians must cooperate to quicken this period. 

    Any status-quo has to lose in 2011, as everything changing faster than it has ever did in the history. Armenian Diaspora and Turkish government are no exceptions. I hear “some” words from the Turkish part that sounds like they are changing. Maybe not as fast as we want, but there is definitely a change there. Let’s encourage and not underestimate the change in Turkey; aren’t the improvements in democracy, economy, politics promising? I hope Armenian Diaspora starts to develop smarter arguments regarding the genocide to get a proper apology&compensation and have their borders opened; it’s for Armenians’ good.

  91. Mehmed Namutenacip:  Do please refer us to any comment made by an Armenian poster here where you see “harassment” or “insult” or “cursing”.  You say “there are millions of Turks who are ready to apologize”. I reiterate: are you personally ready?  So far we haven’t seen any Turk unmistakably apologizing for the barbarity of your grandfathers.  You don’t have to tell us to “keep in mind” who committed the genocide, we know who did it. While the Ittihadist rulers were ultranationalists and racists, were hundreds of thousands of army soldiers, gendarmes, convoys, the chettes, province administration employees, village administration employees, and ordinary murderers, looters, mutilators, rapists, and thieves all Ittihadists?  Finally, if the Ittihadists’ political opinions are accepted as extreme in Turkey, what possibly stops your government from acknowledging their heinous crime against the Armenians?

  92. @Paul: We are pressuring our government for an apology. What makes you think that a Turkish citizen who thinks that the government must apology from Armenians and compensate what happened cannot apologize? I am disappointed to see this level of stereotyping. I already apologized from Armenians publicly on several Turkish websites because of what some racist Turks did to them, years ago, as many others. But you must understand something, I do not accept those racists as my ancestors; you cannot select the most cruel society of a nation in the history and tag them as the “ancestors” of the nation in question; it is stereotyping, and you are not helping your own nation with this attitude.

  93. Armenia is not a signatory for the Lausanne and Kars. Those treaties have no bearing on Armenia. Should Turkey insist on a new treaty, that would require formal diplomatic relations. Turkey refuses this step.

  94. avatar John the turk // November 29, 2011 at 1:31 pm // Reply

    Avery
    You made a statement saying that we Turks have lost eastern Anatolia. I then admitted  that we have  lost eastern Anatolia. You were glad that I admitted. You must now ask for your land from the new victors so it is pointless for you guys to ask for something that we no longer keep .

  95.  
    To Avery (Nov. 28 comment): Thank you Avery. I had run into Kani Xulam’s comment and noted it with great interest. Also not to be lost in the shuffle: Kılıçdaroğlu’s shrewd comment that it was not the role of the prime minister but of the president of the republic to offer such apologies. Another gaping hole in this self-negating “apology”.  
    [“If there is a case for an apology, it is the state that has to apologize, not the CHP,” said Kılıçdaroğlu and underlined that it does not make sense for the prime minister to apologize on behalf of the state when he is the head of government. “He has no authority or right to deliver an apology. In fact, the president is the one who should apologize on behalf of the state,” Kılıçdaroğlu emphasized, urging the president to open state archives.]

    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-264109-dersim-incident-must-be-left-to-historians-says-kilicdaroglu.html

  96. avatar arek avedian // November 29, 2011 at 2:04 pm // Reply

    May i remind all the readers and commenters here that we are all from africa and we share 99.99% identical dna.  turks closeset relatives are armenians, greeks, assyrians and others. i have family that where forcabley converted and now muslim turk of armenian origin. supportes of hrant dink marching on the streets saying we are all armenian was unimaginable when i lived in bolis.
    the rehtoric of us and them must stop on all sides. we must educate and be tolerant of others. i hope there will be day within human history on this beautiful planet that there will be no borders and no war. there is some progress in turkey, lets work for more education and understanding.

  97. Ok, thanks to those who call me a good Turk. I take that as a compliment. But I am actually an Azeri. So, to avoid looking like I am being generous only with other people’s concessions, briefly, here is my position (if you care) on Karabak. And I think it is the silent private position of many Azeris.

    1) Rewind back to 1990. Give the Karabak territories that were inhabited mostly by Armenians at that time to Armenia. It does not really matter who owned Stepanakert 200 years ago (most Azeri believes they did). What matters, for generations it has recently been Armenian. We Azeris of today have no emotional attachment to the land.

    2) But Armenia returns all the surrounding districts that were taken by force by Armenian forces in 1990s, in exchange of course for international security guarantees and a narrow corridor to Armenia.  Of course, this will make Armenians nervious, but, hey, in a compromise you get something less than perfect. Or would you rather prefer the uncertainty of another war with a now much better-armed foe?

    3) Do a selective land-swamp (e.g., in exchange for Susha) to make the separation practical.

    Of course, standing in the way of this is not just the Azeri pride, but also the Armenian mythology, according to which almost all of modern Azerbaijan is historically Armenian, and we should all buy one-way tickets to Mongolia.

    Is above feasible? Unfortunately no. Too much blood and ill will have been built. International players like Russia, which benefits from the conflict by getting maximum concessions from Armenia and which wants Azerbaijan/Turkey weak, are also at play. What the two parties need is what we call agsakkal (the white-bearded dude). But this too will not happen. Sometimes, the war is the only feasible way to reshuffle the table in case there emerge a new system of incentives for a compromise.  So it might be one of those few times when a limited war is the best path to a lasting peace.

  98. “Ok, thanks to those who call me a good Turk. I take that as a compliment. But I am actually an Azeri”

    Mr. Kerim,

    Do you mean you are an Azerbaijan Turk or ,
    Do you mean Azeri and Turks are two different races ?

    Would you please make it clear ?

  99. you are well come ‘Diran’. 

    You obviously read my post: so please do not avoid the question I posed to you.
    The Diran I knew would not have said that in the first place, and would have answered my question promptly. 

  100. Treaty of Sevres was signed by legal representatives of Armenia and Ottoman Turkey.
    Treaty of Lausanne was not signed by any legal representative of Armenia.
    Only Sevres and Lausanne are valid (signed by representatives by legally recognized States).
    Treaties of Alexandropol,Moscow, and Kars are invalid.
     
     
    As to treaties: Treaties can be abrogated, changed, ignored.
    When the time is right, Treaty of Lausanne can and will be changed, same as Treaty of Sevres was changed.
    Treaties do not precede facts on the ground: facts on the ground precede and determine what’s in the Treaty.
     
     
    As to what has legal force and what doesn’t: Prof. Ara Papian has convincingly demonstrated that the Wilsonian Award  is the unassailable legal determinant as far as Armenia’s borders are concerned.
    Will Turkey simply say “…ah, sorry, we did not about that. We’ll be outta here pronto…” ?
    Sure they will: when Hell freezes over.
    However, when facts on the ground change, Armenians will have legal cover to claim what legally belongs to Armenians.
    But first, the ground has to shift. Turk leadership knows the ground is shifting underneath.
    Their recent public actions are subtle, unintended signs that they know what is coming, and are trying to stem the tide.
    It is somewhat reminiscent of what First Secretary Gorbachev was trying to do: Soviet leadership knew or sensed the impending doom, and was desperately trying  things – like Glasnost, Perestroika, etc – to save the unwieldy and artificial structure that was USSR.
    Turkey is a mini-USSR. Turkey will break up: Turks cannot possibly stop 25-30 million Kurds when Kurds are ready for Independence.
    Western Armenia aka Eastern Turkey is almost completely devoid of ethnic Turks. The only Turks there are those in the TSK garrisons and government types. Turk garrisons in a sea of Kurds.
    Once Kurds shake the artificial  structure to its core, others who are too afraid now and are hiding  will come out in droves and join the party.
     
     
    And while the stew is cooking, Armenia, Artsakh, and Diaspora Armenians will stay the course. United in our purpose.
    Others will tear Turkey apart. We will simply walk over and legally claim what is ours.
    And despite the concern of many ethnic Turks, breakup of Turkey will be the greatest thing that can happen to ordinary  Turks who want to live secure, peaceful, prosperous lives.
      
    “No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck.”.  Frederick Douglass

  101. @Paul: yes, I believe some of the rhetoric you use here is harassment, cursing and insult. You asked me to cite offensive sentences from Armenians this discussion, so here are some of them: “Kerim, you’re back with more crap…” (Paul), “Kerim the Turk.. ANOTHER YET IDIOTIC comment by you…” (Gayane), “Our God is old…can’t face millions’ of criminals 
    Their god knows how to guide them to dystroy…confiscate… ” (Sylva-MD-Poetry) etc. Moreover, you are telling again and again you have never seen a Turk who apologized for the genocide, as if it is against Turks’ DNA, despite the fact that there are many Turks in this discussion who already told that they are apologetic, which is purely racist (I am sorry to tell this directly, but there is no other way to put it). What do you want us to do? I marched for Armenians, I signed nationwide campaigns regarding the genocide, I apologized publicly several times, I created a website which reveals Ataturk’s (and Ittihat ve Terakki’s) racist ideology (www.endiseesizmodern.com,  www.facebook.com/endisesiz), I follow Armenian political websites to support them… But I find you questioning my intentions (maybe interrogating is a better word for the case), denying the historical facts I highlighted as if I am lying and making me say the same things again and again. And I feel like you are doing this just because I am a Turk. Shall we hate all the Germans because of the Holocaust? 

    I do not see myself replying your comments unless you start to listen what I say. Additionally, I have to remark that the way that you argue and the position you put me in the discussion are significantly similar with the ones I experienced in political discussion with Turkish nationalists/Kemalists.

  102. Mehmed Namutenacip wrote:  “What makes you think that a Turkish citizen […] cannot apologize?”  I haven’t seen any Turkish citizen in this major Armenian online publication who’d unambiguously repent and offer an apology to us, descendants of millions of deported, slaughtered, raped, tortured, buried and burnt alive, and starved to death innocent human beings.
     
    Mehmed Namutenacip further wrote:  “I do not accept those racists [Ittihadists] as my ancestors.”  Whether you accept them or not, they are—mediately, historically, and genetically—your ancestors. If you don’t accept the Ittihadists based on your system of moral values, then you must demand repentance from your government or, I repeat for the third time, at least apologize yourself. After all, Ittihadists or not, those who committed the crime were your co-ethnics, not Martians. Ordinary Turks raping, looting, and shooting at Armenians as targets tied up to the trees, were not Ittihadists. Was Sultan Abdulhamid II who started the genocidal extermination by murdering up to 300,000 Armenians an Ittihadist? Or a Saloniki Dönmeh Mustafa Kemal, who ordered burning of 30,000 Armenians and Greeks at Smyrna, was an Ittihadist?
     
    This is not a stereotype mentality, this is our first-hand knowledge of the cowardly nature of Turkish Denialists.

  103. Turkey will apologize in some way, it is inevitable. Not immediately. Not today or tomorrow, but it is coming, largely because there is no risk in doing it. Of course, they should have done it long ago, but maintaining the farce was more important for building a fascist nation with racist undertones, than placating its former citizens. Those days are gone, hopefully, forever. So then, what is or will be the most appropriate reaction from Armenia, Armenians?  Will you jump for joy? What will you do?  Just remember…the world and history always move forward, not backward. 

  104. Avery, I don’t want to tackle your fantasy position piecemeal. Suffice to point out just one rather significant flaw in your “reasoning.”

    You say, Kurds will get the Eastern Turkey (aka “Western Armenia”). And you also say, you will then simply walk over and claim what Dr. Papayan has incontestably and irrefutably (and immutably too) proven to belong to Armenia. Now, here comes the reality: won’t the Kurds be there to greet you with flowers and some falafel? If you show up, that is. After all, there are not even enough Armenians willing to “live” in Eastern Armenia.

  105. Kerim.. FIRST.. NO ONE on these pages are name calling… stop your whining because it is always good to blame others for your shortcomings huh?.. You TUrks and Azeris are great at turning the tables around and pin it on those who are not even close to doing what you blame them of doing… No one called YOU stupid.. I said your comments ARE IDIOTIC and they are.. why sugar coat something right? So get over it..By the way, as we all familiar with you TUrks and Azeris game of lets use any opportunity we can get (even if it is a lie), you should go back and read some comments YOUR compatriots OPEN AND BLUNTLY expressed in RUDE and inconsiderate ways about Armenians.. ALL ARmenians… instead of coming here and pretending to be the victim of name calling…

    You also said:
    And besides, what are you going to do with all that land? You don’t even have enough people willing to live in the tiny land of Armenian Republic. Are you going to give up your coze livelihood in California? Or is all this some kind of a fantasy game to center your identiy around? You know, it would all be fun and game, if not for the fact that the poor Armenians stuck in Armenian are the ones paying the price of your maximalist daydreams. They have ruined relationship with Turkey, which is destroying their economy, etc. The sad thing is, even they themselves are part of the fantasy. So blinded one can be by a fantasy.

    Don’t you worry your little denialist self about how we will handle our lands that were forecibly stolen by your nomad barbaric forefathers from my ancestors.. worry about how you will make things right and apologize for denying the truth because if you don’t ,you are no different than your forefathers..now THAT IS somethng you need to worry about…  
      

  106. Diran.. can you point out examples where we called Kerim (who does have some idiotic comments.. no denial there ) a “terrible Turk”…. BY SO MANY as you put it…?? please enlighten us..

    This is what you said: I don’t see why he should be vilified as a “terrible Turk” by so many. If we can’t distinguish a thinking Turk from a fascist jerk we will have no one to talk to

    But we can show you plenty posts by your Turkish and Azeri friends where they with absolute hate and disgust label ALL Armenians Terrible.. Is it that dark on the denialists side that they don’t see this difference?

    I just don’t get it…

       

  107. Diran.. now why don’t you teach/preach/feed/ or whatever  what you said below to people like Kerim, Necati, Robert the Turk, John the Turk, Murat and all other neo denialists…because the truth can never be hidden for long…

    the reason that Turkey is having such a hard time admitting to genocide against the Armenians is not how much they might lose in terms of land or money. It is because the Turkish state cannot handle the truth and its implications

    Oh but we know this.. except Turkey herself is in denial and tries everything in the book not to get punished.. like a little child trying to hide the horrible thing she did not to get punished.. she will live her life in a lie just to avoid punishment.. such cowardly act… 

  108. Mehmed… can you please share with us what is Kerim’s better solution..

    BTW, I would like to say that I cannot understand the level of reaction to Kerim. He does not deny the genocide, he just suggests a better strategy. I now understand better why my Armenian friends from Istanbul were complaining about the Diaspora being overreacting and making the lives of Armenians in Turkey harder

    Taking a bus to visit Mt. Ararat?  Is that your way of telling us, the descendents of those who were brutally murdered Kerim is working hard to make things right?  I laugh at your comment… seriously…   

    Oh really?? your Armenian friend says he is tired of Diaspora and how we react??? hmmmm that is odd.. because your own govt can’t stand Diaspora just for the opposite.. because we won’t let you denialists run a mock and pressure us to do what you want us to do.. unfortunately our brothers and sisters are in a very bad situation because they are close to your lying, manipulating and Genocidal govt and it is harder for them to voice their TRUE opinion… but guess what Mehmed.. DIaspora was, is and will be here forever to haunt your govt and stop them from running from the truth. enough is enough… and keep in mind SIR.. DIaspora was born because of your nomad barbaric ancestors..if my people were left alone to continue to prosper on their own lands, DIaspora would have never happened.. but now we are.. you better believe we will make things hard for Turkey in terms of stopping lies, denial and exposing how dirty and ugly your govt is…  

  109. Avery, I am the same Diran. I will admit that on closer examination that sentiment was not as prevalent in the present discussion as I thought.
    But I have seen it in many posts discussing the Armenian Genocide under other titles. You will find one expression of it in the Nov. 27th posts on this thread.

  110. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 29, 2011 at 6:26 pm // Reply

    Since I am busy writing  on “words” an article that I shall also e-mail to Armenianweekly,suffice  it to say  that I went real fast-a cursary overview  – of above posts.
    Avery is the young man  that (excuse  my immodesty)like self reads  the lines  of  these turkomaniacs(fascists-like)  meticulously(not letting anything slip through fingers,so to say).I refer to Erdogan’s- like  he wrote  an apology streamlined   with “if”s (2  of them ,I was able to immediately locate,since  Avery had pinpointed  the word..)  is very significant and   more   of a  non-apology  made to appear as an apology.
    Avery  for your and others info.Our World Armenian Congress  that convened exactly 60 yrs later  to the day,i.e., August 23,1983, in the same Hall of Beau Rivage Hotel of Lausanne, declared that  infamous Treay  as  NULL   by us since  we were then rendered homeless,evicted from ancestral lands   and only a fraction of the main population ,after the Genocide,somehow revived.Also since  at the time our reps.Avedis Aharonian and Boghos Nubar who were there,were not admitted  into it(kept them out ,those  turcophiles   ). Yes indeed, we then also went to Sevres exactly again to the day 60 yrs later  and upheld  it as  VALID and to be considered as Legitimate.
    I also join  you wishing  and knowing full well that despite great Turkey(made so you know by whom) will be submitted  to interior and exterior blows,both by own people and others and like a big bubble or baloon ,get busted. Meanwhile  though,we should not sit idle.The Homeland needs support.
    indeed  IMF ,WB and many countries are loaning  tangible amounts ,or pledging  to help Armenia progress,rebuild  ruins after earthquake and/or in Artsakh after war there.However, we also know quite well that monies  ,however  smaller  in bulk  to be invested  by the Diaspora  there,will be  much more effective. Thence,let us re-organize the Diaspora(s) re- furbish it with the Spirit  of Esprit de Corps,when we can be ready  to improve  our lot  much  better,both in Homeland and in Diaspora(s)
    Best  to all 

  111. Boyajian:
    I am not in denial of anything. Everyone knows the Armenian Genocide is real. The Turkish government knows its real. They just do not want to pay reparations for their actions.
    Paul:
    The Democratic Republic of Armenia signed the Treaty of Alexandropol. You claim that this is illegitimate as the Democratic Republic of Armenia which ceased to exist OFFICIALLY on December 2nd of 1920, the same day the Treaty was signed..
    This quote is from http://www.buzzle.com/articles/treaty-of-sevres.html… It is the most neutral website I could find… “while the Treaty of Sevres was never ratified by the Ottoman Empire, with the Turkish War of Independence the treaty of Sevres was ANNULLED. A new treaty was signed, which SUPERSEDED the treaty of Sevres.”……
    I understand what you are saying that Armenia never signed it, but the Ottoman Empire never ratified Sevres.
    Anyways, not that any of this is really that important. I hope my government will one day accept the genocide so we all can get over this.
     

  112. Gayane, all this ubiquitous argument by the Armenians, as exemplified by your hateful diatribes, that the modern Azeris and Turks do not long where they live now does not hold water. You say: “Don’t you worry your little denialist self about how we will handle our lands that were forecibly stolen by your nomad barbaric forefathers from my ancestors.”

    Now, here is a study from a prestigious academic journal (Annals of Human Genetics), showing that all these Turks and Azerbaijanis genetically belong to where they currently live. Read it (the link is below).

    “Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the Caucasus (and Turkey)”: http://staging.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf
    It is a check-mate against the positions like yours. In other words, you position above is a BS, period … unless you want to argue with the chemical facts of DNA analysis (I am sure you will try though).

    Yes, the current populations of Azerbaijan and Turkey speak a language that came with the Mongolian invaders. But this does not mean their ancestors came from there and stole your grandaddy’s land :). Having less than 0.001% of your human DNA originating from Mongolia does not make you a descendent of Mongolians (not that there is anything wrong with that). 

    So consults the facts, before you brandish your self-serving interpretations of history. There was not enough Mongolians to completely replace the populations of all the areas they occupied. They mixed in with the populations. Or do you also think that the current populations of Latin America are all Spanish, and should be kicked out of their homes, and put on a ship back to Spain?

  113. well said Gayane (to all).

    Kerim, Gayane already gave the answer re our lands.
    I’ll add a little: what we do with it should not concern you or anybody else.
    We have families in the USA living  2 people in a 10,000 sq.ft. mansion.
    We also have  families of 4-6 living in less 1,000 sq.ft. Nobody asks the 2 why they need 10,000 sq.ft of mostly empty space. It’s theirs: they do what they want.
    We’ll decide what to with the lands when we get there: Nobody else’s  business. 

    As to the Kurds currently living in Western Armenia: obviously if we have thought about everything else, we have thought about that to. Between Armenians and Kurds. No need for Turks to worry about it. All things will be worked out peacefully: trade of this for that.

  114. Mehmed Namutenacip:  I urged you to refer us to any comment here, where sheer harassment, cursing, and insult against ordinary Turks were used. You failed to do so. “Kerim, you’re back with more crap” is not a personal harassment, cursing, or insult. It’s my opinion about ‘arguments’ used in Kerim’s comment. If Kerim reiterated that my comments were crap I wouldn’t take it as a personal harassment, cursing, or insult. On the contrary, I’d be ready to debate them. Same with “another idiotic comment”. I can only see that someone evaluated Kerim’s comment as idiotic. Was Kerim as a person called an idiot? Same with Sylva’s poetry “Their god knows how to guide them to destroy…confiscate…” Were the Ittihadists not destroying non-Turk people and confiscating their properties during the years of genocide? Was it not you who acknowledged that, I quote, “Turks who did the genocide were members of the racist Ittihat ve Terakki party, whose political opinions are accepted as extreme in Turkey”?
     
    Please refer me to a comment made by a Turk partaking in this discussion who stated—clearly and unambiguously—that he or she offers a personal apology for the Armenian genocide. I hardly could have missed such a statement, but maybe you’ve been more closely following this discussion?
     
    Re: “Shall we hate all the Germans because of the Holocaust?”  Why, any Armenian here ever said that he or she hates modern-day Turks?  We know whom our anger is directed at: your unrepentant and denialst state, not ordinary Turkish individuals. Is it not clear? Do we need to repeat this as a preamble to any comment we make?

  115. Mehmed, you and I are both wasting our time here. I guess it is just too much fun :)

    On a related note, I must commend the moderators for letting us in. Not kissing up to get through, but an honest compliment.

  116. Mehmed,
    Thank you for clarifying. I also hope you are right in terms of General Staff opening its archive etc. I am less optimistic, but we can always hope…
    I don’t know what you mean by giving a “city” back, but if Armenian properties were returned and for argument’s sake let’s say the descendents of those Armenians were somehow allowed to and decided to return. Now Turkey being a so called democratic country these newcomers would be voting and getting involved in politics. They may even elect one of them mayor. Whoops, I guess the city has been returned to Armenians!!!!
    Anyhow, in closing I am sorry if you felt attacked and insulted. I sincerely hope you keep checking back the AW and write often.  

  117. I am with Paul.  

    Regarding apologies: when Israeli commandos murdered 9 Turk civilians on Mavi Marmara, Turkish Government not only demanded an apology, but also compensation for the families of the 9 dead: and they were right.
    (no matter the provocation, Israeli commandos murdered 9 civilians on a Turkish ship in International waters: a crime).

    Yet Armenians are supposed to be ecstatic that after years of Denial, after continuous attempts to extinguish RoA, after helping AzeriTatarTurks to exterminate Armenians of Artsakh – we are supposed to be thankful to the State of Turkey for non-Denial ? Northin doin.  After murdering a whole nation we are supposed to be thankful for a  meaningless phrase ? They can apologize 24/7: how is it  going to repair the immense damage they have caused to our nation ?

    Don’t insult our intelligence. We have not forgotten modern Turkey’s attempts to murder the new Armenian Republic. RoA survived and is thriving – despite the efforts of the fascistic Turkish State. We don’t need your charity. 
     

  118. I’ve been following this thread and generally be remaining silent. But I will offer the following points for all to consider:

    For Armenians:

    1. There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation. We are all human.

    2. Whether we agree or not, Turks, by their frame of reference, suffered the dissolution of an empire and this is still traumatic for them on some level. Turks feel surrounded by hostile enemies and in their convoluted educational system, this is beaten into their head everyday as a means of solidifying the state apparatus. Turks still have the feeling that people want to carve them up and aren’t trusting of outsiders and they feel ganged up on. Every perceived slight and even critique is seen as a grand insult on the entire nation. Many see this as paranoia while Turks see this as being cautious. It also cannot be discounted that some of this is typical macho, oriental behavior not uncommon to all people in the region (Turks, Armenians, Arabs, Persians, Kurds, etc) and part of the traditional Near-East zero-sum game. For the Armenians even to demand an apology is seen as something that will lead to the breakup of Turkey by many Turks.

    3. Turks see that there are Armenians with land claims and this is threatening. Even though Armenia itself and most Armenians do not espouse such claims, the fact that even some do is enough to create fury among the Turks.

    4. Just as there are some Turks today who deny the Genocide and have ancestors who took part in those events there are also Turks whose ancestors helped save their Armenians friends and neighbors and still deny the Genocide. There are even many Turks who unknowingly have Armenian ancestors that were victims.

    5. Turks do not learn very much about Armenians. Their textbooks which are uniform and government approved say very little and it is mostly negative. They hardly know us, our history, culture, etc. Armenians were in Asia Minor for thousands of years but we are hardly mentioned and then only in the context of the empires dissolution for which we are often scapegoats.

    6. When Turks come into contact with Armenians, it is usually the Istanbul Armenians (Bolsahay) and they have varying degrees of outspokenness on the issue depending on how secure they feel – think canaries in a cage. In public they say all the right things; they have to. My wife happens to be a Bolsahay.

    7. The first that many Turks learn about the Genocide is when the travel outside of Turkey and suddenly see their people being accused of something that most Turks know nothing about, something from the past they don’t feel responsible for. Turks in Turkey are extremely nationalistic, Turks outside Turkey are more often than not fodder for extreme Turkish fascism. While it is common knowledge that men such as Talaat, Enver, Djemal were fools at best and maniacs at worst, in the context of their actions towards Armenians, the Turks still defend them.

    8. The ASALA did not help this issue. It may have alerted the world to the Genocide but it only hardened the official position of Turkey. At the very least it is used as a convenient excuse to continue denial by the authorities. It, along with land claims is the red herring of the denialists.

    9. Most people do not like to focus on the negative events of their nations history. Nobody wants to re-visit a nightmare. Although I believe all humans/nations/races, etc. can at one time or another act as beasts, nobody will ever willingly admit that they are capable of this. When people are exceptionally insecure they are more willing to deny such a crime. The Japanese do the same with regards to their actions pre WWII and during WWII. Turks are not alone in this regard.

    10. The Turks are not the first or the last nation to commit a genocide. It has most certainly happened since and will continue to happen because while human beings can demonstrate acts of love and compassion so can we also commit acts so cloaked in hate and savagery. Many of the EU states who remind Turkey of Armenian Genocide had themselves committed genocide at one time or another. Furthermore, all empires are bad…full stop. Nor do they ever end well.

    11. Culturally Turks take a more collective view and are more oriented towards the group and Armenians are fiercely individualistic. Both traits have advantages and disadvantages. Both traits have led to mistrust, disagreements and outright violence.

    12. Turks tend to be very nationalistic and have a lot of pride in their country. This is a good and bad thing for any people. It seems it is quite based on a cult of personality with regards to Ataturk. While decrying colonialism and empires, they see to glorify their own. They still have this sense of inferiority vis-à-vis the west which is another reason why these sentiments are so prevalent.

    13. The killing was done not just by Turks but also by Kurds, Circassians, Tatars, Laz.

    14. Many Turks don’t really care about the issue because it means nothing to them as they struggle to make it day to day. Armenians are a mere annoyance.

    For Turks:

    1. Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians lost the homeland, the place where their language, church, and culture was born and a place where they lived for thousands of years and this is extremely traumatic and will never end until there is some apology and at least an attempt at restitution. Many of our family structures were ripped apart or destroyed wholesale. While land claims are not realistic every Armenian longs for their provinces back and this will not end. If you’re a genocide denialist, so be it but answer me this, what happened to the Assyrians? Can you explain how over one million Assyrian citizens disappeared during the same time that their Armenian neighbors were slaughtered? Were they also rebellious? Or could it be that they were coreligionists to the Armenians and thus suspect in the eyes of Turks fro crimes they did not commit?

    2. The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not commit treason against the Ottoman state. It should also be noted that in certain areas in the Empire things degenerated to the point were Armenians had no choice but to be slaughtered or defend themselves and many were eventually killed anyway. Those that chose self-preservation sometimes survived. Those that followed orders died.

    3. Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks became scapegoats during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This is almost an inevitable consequence. There was almost no way these peoples were not going to be victimized after Turkish setback versus Greece, Serbs, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Russia, etc.

    4. Contrary to Turkish belief, all was not well in the Empire prior to the 1870’s, at least if you were a religious minority. It mostly depended on who was the Sultan at the time and how benevolent they were or even who the kamikam might be in a particular province. Let’s not forget that Armenians were dhimmis, paid three times the amount of taxes not including taxes that had to sometimes had to be paid to Kurdish brigands. Armenians were at best, second-class citizens and in the east, were generally robbed and harassed with impunity. Armenians had no recourse.

    5. Armenians are mercantile people and this has always produced jealousy and hatred among others, especially in Asia Minor. Armenians were not allowed serve in the military until 1908 prior to the Balkan Wars, and we they did serve, they served well but were still spit on. Often times their services were needed and called upon but instead of respect, elicited hatred among the Muslim population.

    6. The vast majority of Armenians are not Dashnak of Hunchak. Most are apolitical. Most were struggling to survive day to day. Even today Armenians may not love the Turks but we don’t preach hate either. Indeed, almost to a man/woman we do mistrust Turks/Turkey. How could we not?

    7. The Armenians view the Russian as the lesser of two evils. So while the Turks/Azeris may decry Armenians relations with Russia, it is a better alternative than to align with people that have committed genocide against us.

    8. Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased. I can change my name and outlook, but if I have committed a crime against you, those changes cannot negate that action.

    9. There are quite a few Turks who have Armenian grandmothers and other relatives whether they know it or not. The result of the Genocide produced thousands of orphans who were brought into Turkish families. In fact, you probably share a very similar DNA due to a thousand years of forced conversion, rape, and the aforementioned orphans from the Genocide.

    10. Armenians are not fanatical Christians. We take pride in our own church but as a cosmopolitan and mercantile people, have generally gotten along with Muslims and Jews and respect them. In the past we have had communities in such places as Amsterdam, Madras, Calcutta, Ulan Bator, Crimea, Isfahan, Jerusalem etc. Armenians get along just fine with Persians and Arabs. While Turkey may be seen as bridge between cultures and religions, Armenians have been witness to this for thousands of years before the arrival of the Turks.

    12. Armenians have a right to be paranoid of Turkish intentions since any sign of pan-turanism is to them certain death. Furthermore, considering Turkish relations with Azerbaijan are tied to ethnicity and linguistics, Armenians have a right to call out Turkey as hypocritical, especially when Turks claims to be against racism. Turkeys current blockade of Armenia only ensures that hatred and mistrust will continue.

    13. There are good Armenians and bad Armenians just like any other nation.

    14. Armenians have every right to want the same things you want. Turks/Turkey is extremely hypocritical in this regard when it would deny to anyone else what they want.

    14. Land claims are not realistic but every Armenian longs for their provinces back

    While I commend Turks who advocate for truth, equality, human rights, genocide awareness, etc you must understand that Armenians know that your numbers (liberal, open-minded Turks) are few, even after 90+ years after the genocide. We also know that in reality Turks/Turkey continues to either willingly or through ignorance deny its  past deeds and current violations, which are numerous and hardly abating, i.e.., the Kurds. I cannot think of a bigger insult and I cannot think of a larger crime than to inflict genocide upon a people and than lie about it, covering it up and continuing to insult the victims, deriving economic advantages from the victim- stealing, forcibly converting, pressuring the survivors on a daily basis. It wasn’t enough to just kill Armenians, for Turks/Turkey it seems they have to deny it as well. The message this conveys is that at some point, the Turks see this as an acceptable action. Even today Turkey largely celebrates the perprators and makes morally bereft excuses for their crimes. So for us to question the motives of liberal Turks, you have to understand our position. We know that you wield almost no power within your borders and we know that for every one of you, there are probably a 100 hardcore fascists among your brethren.  While I applaud the liberal Turks they still don’t understand the magnitude of the crime. Furthermore, after the Hamidian massacres in the 1890’s, Armenians foolishly believed in the Liberty, Fraternity, and Equality of the CUP (yes, even the Dashnaktsutyun were suckered in by the false promises of the CUP) but were shortly betrayed thereafter by their own government. It has never been a relationship of equals; it has always been asymmetrical and continues to be so. So our anger grows.

    While other genocides have been committed throughout history (Turks are indeed not the only ones to pursue this course), the fact that it is denied is why the anger continues. Turkey finally officially apologized for the massacres in Dersim but this is only the tip of the iceberg)

  119. Just realized there were some numbering issues in the post above. My apologies.

  120. Kerim, Mehmed, and RVDV, I’m not kissing up either, but thanks for making an effort to conduct a more reasonable dialogue.  Thanks for being more open than most Turks who join the discussion here.

    But as an Armenian I am tired of being told by some Turks that we are right in our claims but wrong in the way we pursue them. Instead of ‘correcting’ Armenians, I wish you would turn your energies toward correcting your society and government.  Correct your history books.  Correct your neighbors when they spread racist hatred.  Correct yourselves for lacking the moral compunction to apologize openly and often for the terrible crime committed against my nation.  And don’t forget to correct the damage that was done to us.  

    Would you tell a robbery victim that he is wrong to complain without end when he receives no justice and instead has to watch as the thief openly uses what he stole from him.  Would you tell him he is suffering his loss and lack of justice incorrectly?  

    You are right to remind Armenians of the changes happening in Turkey, but you are wrong to suggest that we aren’t being patient enough after almost 100 years of denial and denigration and misrepresentation of the facts.   Or that we are not behaving enough to your liking in order for you to not feel that you are wasting your time with us. Isn’t that a bit arrogant?

     

  121. Joseph…very well and succinctly stated.

  122. Bravo, Joseph! There is hardly a word in your very insightful post that I would disagree with or would try to formulate better. I think a letter like yours should be a mandatory reading in Azeri and Turkish schools. It depicts a very nuanced and mature representation of where the Armenians come from in their position. True, we may ultimately disagree with “ok, so what we should all do about it,” but an understanding of each other’s position is a necessary step in achieving some kind of a resolution. Unfortunately, right now both sides seem to harbor a very caricatured view of the other side’s “evil” position.

  123. Very good summary Joseph.  I will read it over a few more times.  Thank you.  There are indeed two sides or perspectives on the Armenian Question.   But there are not two sides to justice.  

  124. avatar Random Armenian // November 30, 2011 at 2:22 am // Reply

    I’ve been catching up with the conversations in this thread and found some things to say:

    There is a certain reality that Kerim touched on regarding return of lands. It’s not going to happened, not simply because Turkey will not and cannot be physically forced to do it, the other major powers will not allow it to happen. It will open up so many can of worms all over the globe. This is the realpolitik of it. And this goes for even trying to bring the genocide in front of international courts. 1915 predeates the UN genocide conventions and other major powers will use that to prevent any such attempts. Otherwise it could set a precedent and they themselves will become targets. You don’t become a major power on a good chunk of land without breaking some eggs. The US did not ratify the genocide conventions until 1988! There was much resistence to it out of fear.

    I’m speaking from a the realpolik angle here. I may be overly pessimistic about this but the depressing relatity is against us, as it always is.

    Also, as a long time reader and occasinal poster on Armenian news sites, I’d like to throw in my 2 cents against using racially charged phrases. The use of the terms Mongolian, Tatar etc, is an attempt to argue by invoking negative imagery and stereotypes. The issues of today have to do with Turkey of today. There are plenty of real issues and problems related to Turkey that could be spelled out clearly without having to resort to angry and charged terms. It may satisfy one’s anger and pain and all it takes is one brief sentence, but it does nothing to promote change and actually undermines the speaker’s points in the eyes of 3rd parties.

    Those who hate speak the loudest and are heard by the other side. And when a large distance separates the sides, those loud voices are the only ones heard, and set the image of the other.

  125. avatar Random Armenian // November 30, 2011 at 2:32 am // Reply

    As for the discussion of Armenians saved by Turks and others, it should not be done as a new approach to reconciliation or reaching out to Turkey or to gain something; those stories should be told because they’re part of the genocide. They’re part of many an Armenian family history and were passed down along with the stories of loss and pain. Not telling these stories leaves out a piece of the picture.
    There were Turks who even warned their Armenian neighbors that something bad was coming.

  126. Well said Paul jan.. Well said… I agree with you 100%…

  127. avatar Random Armenian // November 30, 2011 at 2:54 am // Reply

    Mehmed Namutenacip,

    It is refreshing to read many of the things you have posted here, even thought I think I disagree on some details. But I’m going to go off on a tangent. From what I gather in your posts, you’re in Turkey and arguing against the officially sanction narrative there. I assume you receive resistance to what you’re doing. What have you personally encountered and what has been your experience? It’s obviously more dangerous bolsahays to speak up.

  128. Karekin…  don’t know how else to talk to you..you continue to repeat your old tune over and over and over and over again…. get over it… please.. For God’s sake… we have enough denialists to deal with.. why are you putting more work on our shoulder by your comment like:

    Unfortunately, the diaspora mentality, in many ways, has been frozen in time and place, and on recreated a history that has passed

    STOP saying history is just history..do you appreciate the fact that history.. OUR HISTORY WILL NOT BE  FORGOTTEN…… 

  129. mehmed.. do you mind ellaborating more on the statement..

    Nobody could even dream that a Turkish PM apologizes from Kurds for any reason just a five years ago, so yes, I believe many archives including General Stuff’s will be opened in due course. But Armenians must cooperate to quicken this period.

    I am sorry i missed the part where Armenians MUST cooperate to quicken the period.. what exactly do Armenians need to do to get this process going??? I did not think Armenians are the ones stopping Turkey to make things right and allow open access to everyone to see what is in her archives…….

    now is it in your own interest to wait and wait and wait and prolong as long as you can, so the last survivor is dead, more time passes to say well.. it is history.. who cares??? YOU BELIEVE???? HA… we believed Ottoman Empire was a place where my ancestors can succeed, live on, and prosper.. well we know what happened don’t we?? so you believeing your Genocidal physco leader apologizing to Kurds is NOTHING but a carrot in front of a horse… the world… so yes if Erdogan was a trustful, fair and humane individual, this apology would have been taken seriously… but knowing his past and his actions, having a half ass apology is nothing more than a manuer under the horse’s hoof….  

  130. Kerim... so are you suggesting that Azeris and Turks are incapable of making things right like any human beings, so they will do even more damage and more wrong by showering other nations with blood, murder and killings?  Well.. i am not surprised coming from an Azeri but remember.. 

    So it might be one of those few times when a limited war is the best path to a lasting peace.

    Armenians were here before you and your forefathers, Armenians are and will be..FOREVER… so stop your day dreaming because no matter how much weaponry your loser country stashed up, no Azerbajian or Turkey will have the 1% of the fire and passion that is burning in an Armenian soldier…..

  131. Mehmed.. whatever you sites to show harassment is even more embarassing for you … because to be honest with you.. Your Turks are very quick at jumping at some statements that WERE NOT signs of harassment… Do you know the meaning of the word harassment??? if not, please google it…

    My statement is accurate and will remain as a fact..if a Turk posts idiotic and absurd comments, i will point it out and i will voice it.. now do i call that harassment.. DON”T THINK SO.. so please stop your … “oh we are being harassed…”.. show me A REAL PROOF of harassment.. if you can’t I would suggest not even mentioning it because you people sounds like whiners, and complainers… sorry to be blunt..

    have a nice day sir…

    Gayane      

  132. Kerim.. first of all, wipe that snutty smile off your face… don’t you ever talk about my grandfather or my ancestors in that tone otherwise i would be forced to call you inconsiderate, heartless indivdual….

    Yes, the current populations of Azerbaijan and Turkey speak a language that came with the Mongolian invaders. But this does not mean their ancestors came from there and stole your grandaddy’s land .

    Also, you said:

    Having less than 0.001% of your human DNA originating from Mongolia does not make you a descendent of Mongolians (not that there is anything wrong with that).

    Well of course it does.. because don’t forget your nomad barbaric ancestors who did not have any idea what civilized culture is came in and wiped out everything that they did not recognize and took everything that is beautiful including our Armenian women including other Christians… your genetic structure has more NON-Mongolian genes because of rape, foreceful marriages, harems, and God knows what else.. so if it was me, i would not flaunt the .001% BS because that puts more spotlight on you and your genes.. that were created by everything I mentioned above… just my thought…
     

  133. Joseph.. unfortunately, lets not excuses for those Turks who are undeniably know the facts but intentionally deny and go further and threaten and say racist things about the ENTIRE Armenian population… we all know that not ALL Turks are the same.. NO ONE on these pages EVER put down the entire Turkish population.. EVER… we also know that Turks in Turkey were misguided but it does not give SOME an excuse to vehemently deny the facts and intentionally distort history.. we can’t deny this.. we see it on these pages day in and out…

    We are always open and willing to accept and communicate if we don’t have enialists pushing their mute nonsense…  

  134. Joseph.. but I thank you for the very detailed post….

  135. avatar John the turk // November 30, 2011 at 5:39 am // Reply

    Avery

    We will simply walk over and legally claim what is ours. Then i will greet you with my Kurdish people.How do you get 25-30 millions of Kurds? The total Kurdish population is 10-12 millions and about %60 percent of this live in the metropolitan Turkish cities in the west. A reliable survey conducted every decade and the last two decades indicates that 11 percent is Kurdish and 1.2 percent is Zaza. Turks occupy %85. For your information, The only majority of Kurds live in the south east, not in the east. If look at the eastern cities they are mostly Turkish.  

  136. @Gayane: You can find what he offered in his previous comments. You can laugh at my comments, seriously, but I am afraid you will still miss the my point; I do not necessarily agree with what Kerim said. I just did not approve the level of the reaction which I believe caused by the fact that he was Turkish/Azerbaijanian. 

    I will not respond to any comments which calls me a liar or asks to apologize in this forum from now on. I, a Turkish citizen, explained here that I recognize the genocide, apologized publicly, involved in political activist movements which pressurized the gov’t regarding the denial several times in this forum. It is -by all means- sad to see people ignoring these facts and asking for an apology. Maybe the people who asks for an apology from a person who already apologized do not know what they do as the next step, I do not know. 

    @Kerim: I do not think we are wasting our times here. On the contrary, I sincerely believe that it is very important that I say what I got to say as a Turk who recognize genocide, apologized from Armenians and take some action to put pressure on the Turkish gov’t. My words here act as a litmus paper and reveal all of the obstacles on the way to a proper solution.

    @Ani: I referred “giving a city back” as giving a city with its land to Armenia. Otherwise I would be nothing but happy to see an Armenian mayor in a Turkish city. I am optimistic but not naive, we have a very hard way to walk, as Hrant beautifully once described, our “bloods” are “poisoned” with nationalism. But again, Turkey needs to get more democratic and globalized, mostly for economical reasons, so does Armenia. This is the biggest reason that I believe the future will be better; no one said no to more money in the history. 

    @Joseph: Beautiful words, agree with most of them. However, I believe you underestimate the power of liberal democrats; we are the ones who made the junta/generals arrested (which was not even a dream just a decade ago) and we are the ones who brought democratization to Turkey’s agenda seriously. Kurds can discuss separation on national TVs on prime time right now, many Turks support Abdullah Ocalan to be freed publicly, for instance. Meanwhile, conservative and nationalist roots of AKP and other parties are still there; people get arrested because ridiculous crimes regarding “terrorism” etc. But, I see the glass half empty. Things are changing; it is a good thing. Why not give it a try to make it for our benefit? There are many fascists in my neighborhood, but I know there are many in LA or Yerevan. So what? :) There are many good people there too. Don’t forget that fascists are not as smart as we are :)

    @Boyajian: My pleasure; we are brothers. I am a musician and I cannot thank Armenians enough for their contribution to Turkish music, for instance :) I am actively spending serious energy on the dark side, I mean, Turkish side as well, don’t worry :) I am thinking of starting/organizing a campaign regarding correcting the history books, as the PM officially revealed, by implication,  that our history books are not correct. And I see your point, but I feel as a victim myself, I have no connection whatsoever with the ones who did the terrible crime, but am somehow in charge of correcting what they did. I am not complaining, but, we should end this “we” and “you” rhetoric. Maybe I am Armenian, who knows? I would like to refuse the concept of “nation”, but unfortunately it is not a practical thing in real politics. I might have been not clear about what I said, but I never meant to say that Armenians are not patient enough. I tried to show that it is also very hard for a Turkish citizen with consciousness to handle the genocide problem. You have no idea what I face when I even mention the word in my neighborhood, even in my parents’ house :) But I do mention it everywhere I can. Again, I do not think I am wasting my time here, I would just leave if I did, but I dislike to be ignored, stereotyped and not to be able explain that I am here for Armenians to some Armenians, as I explained at the beginning. I do not put all Armenians in one “basket”. There are some who are very understanding, there are some who are not. 

    Thanks for the insight, enjoyed the conversation. Cheers…

     

  137. *But, I do not see the glass half empty ;)

  138. RVDV:  Wrong again. The Treaty of Alexandropol was signed on December 2, 1920 by an entity (Democratic Republic of Armenia) that was already de jure non-existent. Before its foreign minister signed the treaty, the government of the Republic had already approved the ultimatum presented to it by the Bolshevik plenipotentiary Boris Legran and transferred power to the Soviets as a result of invasion of the 11th Red Army on November 29, 1920.

    In international law, even if one of the agreeing parties is not a subject of international law, the treaties that bear its signature are considered null and void. Kemalists, who signed the Treaty of Alexandropol, were at the time revolutionary outlaws, not the legitimate government of Turkey.
     
    The link you provided gives me a “Page Not Found” message. Regardless, just do a google search for the text of the Treaty of Lausanne of July 24, 1923 and try to find any provision that says that the treaty superseded the Treaty of Sèvres of August 10, 1920. Even if you miraculously find such a provision, scroll down to the signatories and try to find any Republic of Armenia there.

    I understand what you are saying that the Ottoman Empire never ratified Sèvres, Indeed, Kemal violated Turkey’s obligations according to the Treaty and started war against Powers to get a better deal. However, this doesn’t diminish the fact that the Ottoman Empire did actually sign the Treaty of Sèvres and that it remains the only Treaty between Armenia and Turkey that bears signatures of their respective legitimate governments.
     
    Moreover, no one ever annulled the Woodrow Wilson Mandate that bears the Great Seal of the United States, allocating several territories of historical Armenia that were emptied of Armenians as a result of Turkish genocide to the Republic of Armenia, an entity that was meant to be created, if Kemal didn’t violate Turkey’s international obligations.

  139. For Joseph:
     
    1. “There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation.”  Obvious. However, worst Armenians are unlikely to commit such indescribable mass barbarous acts as bad Ottoman Turks.
     
    2. “Whether we agree or not, Turks, by their frame of reference, suffered the dissolution of an empire and this is still traumatic for them on some level.”   Agreed. But because Turks suffered dissolution of their empire for no fault on the part of Armenians, why would the Armenians be annihilated as a race?
     
    3. “Turks see that there are Armenians with land claims and this is threatening.”  Do some Armenians claim lands in the Mongolian steppes and the mountains of Altay, the ancestral homeland of the Turks?
     
    4. “Just as there are some Turks today who deny the Genocide and have ancestors who took part in those events there are also Turks whose ancestors helped save their Armenians friends and neighbors and still deny the Genocide.”  Obvious. But the denial of a crime is pathetic in any equation.
     
    5. “Turks do not learn very much about Armenians.”  Well, too bad for the Turks. International recognition of the genocide will make them learn about Armenians and their tragic fate in the hands of the Turks.
     
    6. “When Turks come into contact with Armenians, it is usually the Istanbul Armenians.”   In the age of the Internet and social networks, it doesn’t seem so hard to build bridges among peoples in the search for truth.
     
    7. “The first that many Turks learn about the Genocide is when they travel outside of Turkey and suddenly see their people being accused of something that most Turks know nothing about.”   I see this as a motivation for those uninformed Turks to look deeper in their nation’s history and the crimes it had committed against the indigenous peoples that inhabited Asia Minor long before the intrusion of the Turks.
     
    8. “The ASALA did not help this issue.”  Agreed. Although their motives were understandable, terror is not the solution.
     
    9. “Most people don’t like to focus on the negative events of their nation’s history. Nobody wants to re-visit a nightmare. Turks are not alone in this regard.”   Nightmare and crime against humanity are two different notions. The term ‘genocide’ was coined and the international law was adopted to punish the perpetrator nation whether or not it “likes to focus on the negative events of their history.”
     
    10. “The Turks are not the first or the last nation to commit genocide. Many of the EU states who remind Turkey of Armenian Genocide had themselves committed genocide at one time or another.”   Turkey is one of a few nations in the world that committed genocide. The difference between Turks and the Europeans is that some EU states who committed atrocities at one time or another had the courage to acknowledge them. Others, such as Germany, had the courage to even apologize and pay retributions.
     
    11. “Culturally Turks take a more collective view and are more oriented towards the group and Armenians are fiercely individualistic. Both traits have led to mistrust, disagreements and outright violence.”   Certainly. It’s hard to imagine that, culturally, Armenians would gather around in wolf packs to mass slaughter, mass rape, and mass loot.
     
    12. “Turks tend to be very nationalistic and have a lot of pride in their country.”   In the heinous crimes of their country, too?
     
    13. “The killings were done not just by Turks but also by Kurds, Circassians, Tatars, Laz.”   Undeniably. But the Ottoman Empire was a Turk-dominated country and the majority of central and provincial authorities who planned and executed the genocidal extermination of the Armenians, as well as army commanders, gendarmerie, soldiers, the Chettes, and ordinary murderers, rapists, and looters on site were ethnic Turks.
     
    14. “Many Turks don’t really care about the issue because it means nothing to them as they struggle to make it day to day. Armenians are a mere annoyance.”   We don’t care whether we’re annoyance for Turks. Armenians simply advance justice. When justice is served, then the issue will mean something for the Turks.

  140. avatar gaytzag palandjian // November 30, 2011 at 12:20 pm // Reply

    To Joseph,
    Your  in depth analysis  of the Turkish or better yet turco-azeri character is in place.
    As rgds  to :
    Number 8(to us) I beg to differ.A Ramgavaragan(agan)is my and my kin´s addition to our Anti Dashnakist ,Anti ASALA usually well to do Armenians.let me go on .He a man very well known in Paris France(the Ramgavar) very friendly with me and then occupying  important position in paris(in the eyes  of authorities  too) confided  to me, saying,and I quote¨Turkin ghafayin yete chi zarnes, chi hasgnar¨ meaning  they are like the Spanish once also  used to refer to them as ¨Cabeza de Truco¨¨Turk head.
    Thence  ASALA, made  them understand  once again (after Tehlirian, Shiragian,Yerganian, in the aftermath  of the Genocide) that  WE ARE  THERE, not extinct,erased from the surface  of the earth  (mother). As well as to Int´l Communities, who  had completely forgotten about ARMENIA.
    As an example:-, I was in a remote sea shore in Europe sipping coffee with friend  when on T.V. screen the News blast showed  the Young Armenian(later hung) storming Ankara airport-.imagine with  what difficulty  he  had reached  there!!!I quote last  part, because  this friend only a few days ago was describing  with admirationto me , how the Israelis had flown into ENTEBEE (film  made  of  it later)BTW  Where are  our Film  makers-one  near  by  to me, but  the subject  he chose  is  how we suffered,does  not  show  like  in  book  ¨m a m i g o n ¨ by Jack Hashian Amenian American(get book from libraries and read, better Scenarios  than “Schindler’s List”  , mamigon counter attacks  the turks…) in East Africa  to free jeweish  prisoners  there.indeed very easy  a well organzied  army airforce acting  as  that ,but ours …with no back  up no nothing!!!!
    As to your  Number,.
    14.(to Turks) You  err as  to LAND ISSUE.Firstly,these are mainly occupied by k u r d s ,however  latter  know by know who Turks are and will compromise  with  us on it.
     Yeah ,same can be applied  to number  11.Making  it known to ODARS  the Armenian CASE/CAUSE  is  very much  ALIVE!!!!

  141. If only we could rachet back the rhetoric on both sides and speak to each other as human beings who share much of the same DNA,  
    If only we could have mutual respect for the rights of individuals and feel appropriate guilt when we trample others,  
    If only Turks could move forward with compassion and contrition instead of fear and arrogance,
    If only they could try to put themselves in our shoes,  
    If the truth could finally be told without distortion and blaming the victims,  
    If Armenians could finally stop the struggle for their history to be known and hear the words of acknowledgment and apology that their souls yearn for,
    If they could experience the relief of having their truth validated by those who wronged them,
    than maybe our shoulders could ease down, our fists open, our jaws unclench
    And maybe we could all look into one another’s eyes and see our own reflecting back.

  142. Kerim —

    Whatever you deliriously bloviate, the fact remains that there were no Turkic tribes in the Caucasus or the Armenian Plateau or in broader Asia Minor or in the Balkans or in the Middle East before the 11th century AD. However hard Turkic distortionists try to misrepresent history, it is a fact that Turkic tribes did come to our region as nomadic warriors from the Mongolian steppes and the plains around mountains of Altay.

    At the time of Seljuk and Mongol invasions, Asia Minor was already inhabited by sedentary nations who developed high civilizations: Persians, Armenians, Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, etc.  Seljuk Turks, and then Mongols (who originated in the same area and had common traits), adopted the Persian and Arabic language and script, elements of the cuisine and traditions, music and architecture of the locals.

    BTW, Mongols invaded in incalculable hordes and were thus able to densely intermingle with the local population. Your history books should tell you that Mongols created an enormous empire in the history of the mankind: The Golden Horde. Mongols could not completely replace the populations, but their descendants settled, gradually expanded, created an empire by colonizing the aborigine peoples, and ultimately stole their lands by physically exterminating the indigenous inhabitants, namely Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians. This is, roughly and briefly, the history of how Turkic people appeared in where they’re now.

  143. Random Armenian, Nov. 30th: “Those who hate speak the loudest and are heard by the other side. And when a large distance separates the sides, those loud voices are the only ones heard, and set the image of the other.”  This is eloquent and powerful and true. All of us should pay attention to his words. But I will add this, that all this personal loudness and bitterness and flying at each other’s throats would come to an end the day Turkey accepted full and frank responsibility for its history. This is the cruel burden that Turkey is placing on all of us ordinary citizens, whatever our origins, by its denial of the truth. 

  144. ‘Then i will greet you with my Kurdish people.’  you post under John the Turk, yet you claim you are a Kurd: which is it ? No real Kurd would call himself a Turk. A Turkish citizen, maybe – but not a Turk.
     
    Here are the percentages from CIA: Turks 70-75%, Kurds 18%, other minorities 7-12% (2008 est.)
    As to the 20 million  I cited: official Turkey understandably tries to minimize the number of Kurds. However, every so often people slip up.
    I will give you one citation from a Turkish source – Todays Zaman.
     
     
    Google this article  “Circassians: We want same initiatives as Kurds” It’s in TZ 08 January 2009. {TRT 6 began Kurdish programming to appeal to the nation’s 20 million Kurdish citizens.}
    There are lots other  articles in TZ and HDN that have admitted to 20 million. There are other sources as well that indicate  a range of 20-30 million: you have to research yourself, do a sanity check on numbers, as I have.  No doubt Kurds exaggerate some, but so do Turks: nobody really knows what percentage of Turkey’s population are  ethnic Turks. Most non-Turks are too afraid to say anything other than ‘Turk’ when asked – for now.
     
     
    And you are correct that most Kurds are in urban areas: I never claimed all 20 million are in Western Armenia.
    Western Armenia is populated mostly  by Kurds, some others ethnicities,  but very sparsely (I have checked the density maps).
    Don’t you see how neatly all that works for Armenians ?
    Look up “Wilsonian Armenia”: you will understand.

  145. Random:  I sense a disquieting degree of incoherence in your comments.
     
    You say: “the return of lands is not going to happen, because the major powers will not allow it to happen.” Is any mortal empowered with an ability to foresee what is and what is not going to happen? I certainly don’t have such ability, but during my grandparents’ and my own lifetime empires collapsed (Ottoman, Soviet), lands were returned (Germany, Yugoslavia) and new nation-states—recognized, semi-recognized, or unrecognized—have emerged on the political map (East Timor, Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Artsakh). In 1988, the quest of the Armenians of Artsakh for self-determination did open the can of worms that led to several national-patriotic movements throughout the mighty Soviet empire. Where were your major powers ‘disallowing’ these to happen?
     
    Regarding bringing the Armenian genocide before international courts as it predates the UN Genocide Convention, much has been said by professionals in the field. Such as Alfred de Zayas, professor of international law, former senior lawyer with the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and secretary of the UN Human Rights Committee. In the article “The Armenian Cause and International Law” (see: New Europe Online at http://www.neurope.eu/blog/armenian-cause-and-international-law) de Zayas refutes those who claim that Armenians have no justifiable rights, because the Genocide Convention was only adopted 1948, more than 30 years after the Armenian Genocide, and because treaties are not normally applied retroactively. He calls it a fallacy, because the Genocide Convention was drafted and adopted precisely in the light of the Armenian genocide and in the light of the Holocaust. Not only the Armenian Genocide but also the Holocaust predated the Convention, and no one would question the legitimacy of the claims of the survivors and descendants of the victims of the Holocaust, simply because the Nazi atrocities were committed before the entry into force of the Genocide convention. De Zayas maintains that the rights of the Armenians do not derive from the Genocide Convention. Rather, the Genocide Convention strengthens the pre-existing rights of the Armenians to recognition as victims, to restitution and compensation.  Articles 144 and 230 of the Treaty of Sèvres, signed on August 10, 1920, recognized the rights of the survivors of the extermination campaign against the Christian minorities of the Empire, including the Armenians, the Greeks from Pontos, the Chaldeo-Assyrians, and affirmed the obligation of the Turkish State to and punish the guilty.
     
    Article 144 stipulated in part:
    “The Turkish Government recognises the injustice of the law of 1915 relating to Abandoned Properties, and of the supplementary provisions thereof, and declares them to be null and void, in the past as in the future. The Turkish Government solemnly undertakes to facilitate the return to their homes and re-establishment in their businesses of the Turkish subjects of non-Turkish race who have been forcibly driven from their homes by fear of massacre or any other form of pressure since January 1, 1914. It recognises that any immovable or movable property of the said Turkish subjects, which can be recovered, must be restored to them as soon as possible, in whatever hands it may be found…”
     
    Article 230 stipulated in part:

    “The Turkish Government undertakes to hand over to the Allied Powers the persons whose surrender may be required by the latter as being responsible for the massacres committed during the continuance of the state of war on territory which formed part of the Turkish Empire on August 1, 1914. The Allied Powers reserve to themselves the right to designate the tribunal which shall try the persons so accused, and the Turkish Government undertakes to recognize such tribunal….”

    Finally, the use of the terms ‘Mongol’, ‘Tatar’, etc, is not an attempt to argue by invoking negative imagery and stereotypes. It is a reinstatement of historical origins of nations in question to demonstrate that by their geographical/ethnic origins they never belonged in Asia Minor or the Caucasus before their ancestors’ invasions.  Yes, Seljuk Turks originated in and traveled from the Mongolian steppes. Why is this historical truth considered ‘a negative imagery’ and ‘a stereotype’? Yes, Azeris, before Russian Bolsheviks invented ‘Azerbaijan’ stealing from the name of an ancient Persian province, were known as ‘Caucasus Tatars’ or simply ‘Muslims’ with no national identity. Why is this historical truth considered ‘a negative imagery’ and ‘a stereotype’?

  146. “John the turk”… —  What an incompatible collocation of a sacred Biblical name with “the turk”.
    “John the Baptist” or “Gospel by John” would be more appropriate a collocation.   Or even more appropriate: “Tallat the turk” or “Enver the turk” or “Jemal the turk”. There were so many Ottoman Turkish mass murderers elevated to national heros in Turkey…

  147. Gayane, I was not going to respond to your posts full of bigotry, hatred, fantasy, and plain ignorance. But I cannot resist your response to the point about 0.001% genes being Mongolian. You so clearly missed the point here that is too sad to even try to rebut you. Clearly, you lack any and all scientific understanding of genetics or even mature logic. If that small % makes one Mongolian par excellence, how about all the other genetic traces? In addition to being a Mongolian, am I also at the same time African, Arab, Roman, Indian, Persian, Mesapotomian, Homo Erectus, etc? Well, yes. But, it does not make my ancestory Mongolian alone. I am all those things. So are you. If you read the paper, you would see what I mean (the modern Azeri DNA is no foreign to Caucasus that yours, period. This is  scientific fact, not open to debate). Or do you think that your DNA is 100% Armenian, pure and simple? It can never be so. Throghout history,  migrations, wars, intermarriages have mixed genes all the time. For all you know, you might be 0.001% Gypsy, which, accordingly to you logic, would make your ancesotry Gypsy. But why am I wasting my time with you? From the more recent posts from other Armenians, I now see that you don’t represent the best Armenia has to offer. That was very refreshing (and encouraing) to see.

  148. Kerim.. i could care less what you think of me.. i already expressed that i don’t see you as a great representative of Turkey either with your idiotic comments.. and disrespectful tone toward my gradfather (grandaddy.. as you snobbishly put it)….

    So that said.. my genes may have a fracture of another race; however Armenians do not represent a nomad tribes that descended from Altai mountains and Mongolian Steppes… Armenians in the history books are nt known as destroyers as your ancestors… Armenians,  in the beginning of 20th century never FORECFULLY RAPE Turks to satisfy their blood thirsty selves… ARmenians did not create harems and used Turkish women as their slaves and sex objects.. Armenians never forced any Turk to marry and have their babies… DO YOU APPRECIATE THE DIFFERENCE KERIM?? i doubt it..  

    I express anger and annoyance toward people like you as I see you nothing but a denialists with misguided information.. I just hope that one day you will stop all the denialists nonsense and understand that we will not be silent anymore like during the time your ancestors murdered most of my nation…   

    You can count on that…

     

  149. Paul jan.. vaxxx. jannn.. inch lav asetsir.. apres.. shat lav er…

    Avery jan- yes el xosq chunem qo masin.. brilliant…

    Berch jan- love it.. apres…    

  150. For Joseph (continued):
     
    1. “Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians lost the homeland. While land claims are not realistic every Armenian longs for their provinces back and this will not end. Can you explain how over one million Assyrian citizens? Were they also rebellious?”    Turks’ opinions on whether or not it was genocide no longer count. It could be said that the Armenian Genocide has been internationally acknowledged. These are not land claims per se, because Armenians long for land restitution as a form of reparation for race annihilation and according to the provisions of the Treaty of Sevres. Mass exterminated Assyrians were not rebellious, but neither were the Armenians. Rebellions aim at toppling a government. There was no single occurrence of a massive, tidily-mobilized, well-organized, and armed-to-teeth Armenian rebellion against the Turks. A few instances (in Van, etc.) were resistances and self-defense. Did we forget to mention mass slaughtered Pontic Greeks?
     
    2. “The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not commit treason against the Ottoman state.”  Even a minority of Armenians didn’t commit treason against the Ottoman state. Some Armenians’ national liberation aspirations and freedom-fighting were the consequence of centuries-long mistreatment by the Sultans and treason by the Committee of Union and Progress who promised liberal reforms and then reneged in a typically Turkish sly way.
     
    3. “Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks became scapegoats during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This is almost an inevitable consequence. There was almost no way these peoples were not going to be victimized after Turkish setback versus Greece, Serbs, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Russia, etc.”    Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks were not the cause of the Turkish setback, nor were they anywhere near the Balkans or WWI fronts, including the Caucasus front. Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks were annihilated not so much as revenge for Turkish setbacks, but as a result of Turkish ambitions to secure as much lands as possible for their new Republic, free of non-Turks.
     
    4. “Contrary to Turkish belief, all was not well in the Empire prior to the 1870′s. Armenians were dhimmis, paid three times the amount of taxes not including taxes that had to sometimes had to be paid to Kurdish brigands.”    Armenians were barred from testifying in courts on an equal basis with Muslims. Armenians were barred from holding executive positions. Armenians were exposed and defenseless to the constant murders, abductions, and pillages by the Muslim bands in rural vilayets.
     
    5. “Armenians are mercantile people and this has always produced jealousy and hatred among the Muslim population.”   Armenians were also skillful architects, builders, financiers, artisans, cobblers, poets, and musicians. Their excellence in business and trade, engineering and architecture, arts and literature was envied, as well.
     
    6. “The vast majority of Armenians are not Dashnak of Hunchak. Most are apolitical.”    And most were apolitical back in 1894-96 and 1915-23 when they were mercilessly butchered by Abdulhamid and the Ittihadist Turks.
     
    7. “The Armenians view the Russians as the lesser of two evils. Russia is a better alternative than to align with people that have committed genocide against us.”    Although Russians were a domineering nation, they secured conditions for the Armenians and other minorities to prosper under the imperial Russian and Soviet rules. In contrast to the Ottoman centuries, many world-renowned Armenian scientists, engineers, astronomers, marshals and generals, chess-players, artists, musicians have emerged during the Russian rule.
     
    8. “Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased.”    As a successor state, the Turkish Republic inherited international obligations under the treaties signed by the Ottoman Empire.
     
    9. “There are quite a few Turks who have Armenian grandmothers and other relatives. In fact, you probably share a very similar DNA due to a thousand years of forced conversion, rape, and the orphans from the Genocide.”    Yes, and not because Turks were an indigenous sedentary people of Asia Minor at all times in history.
     
    10. “Armenians are not fanatical Christians. Armenians get along just fine with Persians and Arabs.”     Which once again emphasizes the fact that Christian Armenians don’t have problems with the Muslims. Armenians have problems with the Turks.
     
    11. “Armenians have a right to be paranoid of Turkish intentions since any sign of pan-turanism is to them certain death. Turkeys current blockade of Armenia only ensures that hatred and mistrust will continue.”    The blockade of Armenia also demonstrates that the genocidal extermination of Armenians was not just a reaction to Turkish setbacks in their wars with others, but a desire to empty Eastern Anatolia of Armenians. Nowadays, it means advancing pan-Turanism in which the remaining Armenians in the Caucasus are considered a roadblock.
     
    12. “There are good Armenians and bad Armenians just like any other nation.”    However, even the worst Armenians have no historical record of savagely mass annihilating other human beings.
     
    13. “Armenians have every right to want the same things you want.”   This should sit very unwieldy in the minds of neo-imperialist Turks.
     
    14. “Land claims are not realistic but every Armenian longs for their provinces back.”    These are not land claims per se, because Armenians long for land restitution as a form of reparation for race annihilation and according to the provisions of the Treaty of Sevres.
     

  151. Mehmed.. you don’t have to approve anything that goes on here.. no one gave you or me authority or the right to approve or not to approve how comments are posted.. but we do have the right to express how we feel about the comments.. and you may not see the condonsending and denial in Kerim’s posts but i do.. and i have the right to express it…

    Also, have not heard your answer to my question on the following:

    But Armenians must cooperate to quicken this period

     What is it that Armenians need to do if they have not done so so far to quicken this period??? You yourself admitted that you are working very hard on the Turkish side but yet you get soo much negativity even in your own home.. so why do you think ARmenians arethe one hindering the expansion and forward movement in Turkey??

    It would not be fair if I did not say thank you for your efforts..   so I thank you.. hope you succeed..   can share with us some publications or petition you have or are working on..   as you suggested you have done… unless I misread your comment…if so, my apologies…  

  152. Mehmed Namutenacip:  Haven’t heard from you for a while. Are you or are you not ready to offer an apology on your own behalf for the genocidal extermination of Armenians by your Ittihadist predecessors? You expressed sympathy, which is appreciative, but short of apology, which is typical to the Turks.
     
    Also, I understand you took time to give us the names of Armenians occupying “critical positions” in the administration and army of the Ottoman empire? Need more time? Be my guest. Just let me know.

  153. good post Mehmed Namutenacip (Nov 30th). 
    ‘@Boyajian: My pleasure….for instance’  paragraph, in particular,  was very well done.
     
    (just the same, I share the overall philosophy and worldview  of   Paul, Gayane, Berch,  etc)

  154. Paul, excellent retort to Joseph.

    Someone wrote that Joseph’s post should be required reading: fair enough.
    I say Paul’s retort to same should be required reading as well.

  155. @Random Armenian: Thanks, of course we will have dissidence, but isn’t it the beauty of democracy? I believe we should discuss anything with anyone as long as the wording and the manner is appropriate. For the record, I have been living in USA for more than 3 years now (I came for academical purposes and will go back in about a few years time), but I visit Turkey as often as I can. However, I actively work on political subjects online and try (or used to try) stay in touch with my friends in Turkey. You asked what resistance I faced, so let me give a few examples… I was raised in a “white Turkish” society as a “default” kemalist. Therefore, many friends stayed that way. I did not. Since I started mentioning “genocide” on facebook and other mediums, my own friends started to attack me. Every time I mentioned something against the kemalist ideology, I got blackballed. I faced slander and defamation from the ones I really loved; I was cursed at, called an American spy, an Armenian (as if it was a curse word, just like Erdogan did), Fethullah Gulen’s (Islamist leader) kiss ass etc. because I was revealing the lies of the kemalizm (you can read it as Ittihat ve Terakki, they are more or less the same thing). Two of my best friends are not friends with me any more because I created a website in which Ataturk’s real opinions about Armenians and other subjects. Many friends stopped talking to me, I can say, almost the majority. I was threatened and told not to go back to Armenia instead of Turkey, by some of them. I was a very social guy, I have more a thousand friends on facebook, but now I get “notifications” from my Turkish friends hardly ever :) I pretty much ruined my social status in most of my friends’ eyes.  I was told my business partner to have a “pen name” in order to keep our business out of my now-notorious name (which I did). Tragicomically, I got blackballed by many Europeans and Americans  abroad just because I was supporting liberal democrat ideas, as “a guy from a muslim country”, if you know what I mean. You see what happened when I said I was sorry about the genocide to some Armenians, above :) However, there are many Turkish/Armenian/American/European friends who supported me and told me to go on. I have no intentions to give up, instead, I am more motivated and will work on this harder. The more the people told me to shut up, the more I understood that I was saying the right thing :) I know, my problems are by no means close to what many Armenians experienced, but I made my life harder because I did not close my eyes and told the truth. I believe there are millions like me in Turkey. I believe demonizing any nation/race/society/culture is an insult to human intelligence, and I am determined to fight with it. Hopefully one day, I will go into politics and tell these as a Turkish politician, that’s my aim.

  156. @Gayane: You’re welcome. Here is one from the early 2008 I signed: http://www.ozurdiliyorum.com (ozur diliyorum: I apologize). More than a hundred thousand people chanted “we are all Armenians, we are all Hrant” at Hrant Dink’s funeral. Afterwards, I and many friends change our facebook statuses to “we are all Armenians” on each anniversary. Symbolic, but better than doing nothing. I also reveal Ataturk’s racist ideas on my website, including the one he said “Armenians have no rights whatsoever in this prosperous country” (in Turkish), which drove most of my Turkish friends crazy.

    By “But Armenians must cooperate to quicken this period”, I meant being more reasonable and less stereotyping. It took thousands of words just to make you understand that I had already apologized (and there are some in this forum who still ludicrously demand an apology :) ) It is a suggestion from a Turk, you can take it or not. I don’t know if you already do, but I recommend you to follow Etyen Mahcupyan, a Turkish author of Armenian descent, his ideas regarding the genocide is inspiring.

  157. Kerim, before  you reach fantastic conclusions from the study you referenced, before you belittle my friend Gayane,  before you claim AzeriTatarTurks and Turks are indigenous to our lands, read carefully what the study says.
    Let  me paste the relevant sentence from the  SUMMARY: 
    {‘ Overall, the Caucasus groups showed greater similarity with West Asian than with European groups for both genetic systems……, suggesting that male-mediated migrations from West Asia have influenced the genetic structure of Caucasus populations.’}
     
     
    Do you understand what that sentence  means ? Male-mediated means genes carried by the male of the species. Means  (mainly)  male warriors invading from West Asia (aka Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains region), and  forcibly injected their genes into some of the (female)  indigenous populations: where is the surprise ? Yeah, after about 1000 years of intermixing, of course your are going to have some common genes. How did you reach the conclusion  from that study that you guys are indigenous ? Where does it say that in the study ?
    We never said you guys arrived yesterday. We always said you invaded about 1000 years ago. What am I missing ?
     
     
    NOTE1: Armenians never claimed we are from Europe. We are indigenous to the Armenian Highlands and Caucasus. What did the SUMMARY say ? 

    NOTE2: I am not a genetic scientist. (another discipline). But I have a problem with the sample size: {We have analyzed mtDNA HVI sequences and Y chromosome haplogroups based on 11 binary markers in 371 individuals, from 11 populations in the Caucasus and the neighbouring countries of Turkey and Iran.}
    Only 371 individuals ? The  sample size is just too small.
    Where were the samples collected ? In cities, isolated mountain villages, where  ?
    When ? There were about 400,000 Armenians in Azerbaijan before 1988-1990, mostly in large cities.
    Plus, before the country of Azerbaijan was created in 1918, the area encompassing it was home to various indigenous peoples, mostly East of the Kura river. (e.g. Tats, Talishes, Udins, Lezgins, Zakhors, Luitsis, Avars, Kurds: the Aliyev clan is ethnic Kurd)
    Don’t know what percentage of people who are residents of the country Azerbaijan are Tatar-Turks (descendants of Turkic tribes from the East).
     
     
     
    And I have question for you, Azeri  Kerim:
    In 2005, Azeri troops completed the destruction of about 10,000 Armenian Khachkars in Nakhichevan. Some of those were 1,500 years old.
    If Azeris are indigenous to the land, why would they destroy irreplaceable historic treasures like that ?
    Who does that ? For what purpose ? 

  158. I think referring to history at this point could be helpful in order to understand how Ittihat ve Terakki’s racist ideology poisoned our bonds and relationship. Maybe now it is hard to believe for many, but the word “Armenian” hasn’t been this negative in Turkish society. Moreover, historically, Armenians have always hold critical positions in the palace including grand vizier (second man in the Empire, i.e. Ermeni Suleyman Pasha and Damad Halil Pasha ), chief architect (i.e. Mimar Sinan, or Armen Sinanyan), ambassador (the very first ambassador of Ottoman Empire is Armenian: Agop Kircikyan – Paris) and generals (Yosep Vardanyan (Vardan paşa), Stepan Aslanyan, Anton Tınkıryan etc.). Palace doctors, jewelers, managers historically belonged to Armenians. You can reach some of the information given above via Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute website. Moreover, as I remarked previously, being Turkish was not accepted as a “cool” thing till the nationalism wind after the French revolution; it was used as an insult meaning “farmer”, “ignorant” or “redneck”, unfortunately. I myself worked in a cymbal manufacturer, I know that the best cymbalsmiths in the world were Ottoman Armenians, and they stayed like that until the Ittihat and Terakki ideology showed up; then they had to leave. I hope you see my point here.

    I am not telling that Armenians were living in the wonderland in Ottoman Empire, but there are significant rights of Armenians, especially after Fatih Sultan Mehmed. He was way ahead of his time , and had Armenians to establish their own church in Istanbul (this is how they got to Istanbul). The list goes on. 

    The young Turks re-invented “Turkishness” and Ittihat ve Terakki sold this to the globe. Before then, everybody under Ottoman Empire was Ottoman, not Turkish. This is why it was Ottoman Empire, not Turkish Empire. The founders was Turkish, but it was a federal system. I do not mean to give a history lecture or something, but I feel like this part was somehow erased from the Armenian history books, as the genocide was erased from Turkish ones. Cheers..

  159. you must have been tired Paul. 

     
    ’11. …but a desire to empty Eastern Anatolia of Armenians.’  
    There never was or is  Eastern Anatolia: for Armenians, it’s always Armenian Highlands. 
    It sounds so beautiful. 

     

  160. Mehmed.. it is one thing to say it but another to prove it.. you may very well know that it is not about what you say, it is what you do about it.. I am talking about Turks and their actions …yes, you stated you recognize the Genocide and you work toward making things right; however, you have not even attempted to merely apologiize as Paul requested.. not to say you have not or did not but to repeat what you share outside of this forum can stop the suspicion and even disbelief that you are not just here to butter up a nice support system but you are a true believer in justice… it does not have to take thousands words to make someone understand a desire and willingness.. it only takes a person to make things right….. so I am with my friends on this one…

    Also, you mention less stereotyping??? what is that mean?  do you mean to tell me that Armenains stereotype ALL TURKISH population?? is that what you are driving at?

    well my dear Turkish friend, you are dead wrong.. and I will repeat this until my tongue bleeds.. NO ONE.. I repeat NO ONE on these pages lumps every Turk into one basket unlike your comrades… we ARE and WILL point out and single out any denialists that come across our pages and begins their Anti-ARmenian and hate driven compagne… our frustration and annoyance is directed TO THEM and THEM ONLY…

    But  facts remain facts.. I am sorry that it does not sit well with you but Turks and Azeris hav a very unfortunate and bad ancestry..it is not my who came up with this.. i don’t create history.. their ancestors were, are and will remain the nomad barbaric tribes and that is a fact…… but we are not saying ordinary Turks are like that.. nor we are saying the entire country is bloodthirsty.. i dont’ understand why this subject keeps coming up when we repeatedly clarified this matter.. and using this as an escapte to excuse Turks and Azeris (DENIALISTS) is not something we accept….

    It is very clear the differnence between how Armenians communicate/address Turks vs how Turks (you should see some of the comments directed to the ordinary Armenians in GENERAL)… address Armenians…

    Thanks for sharing the information….    i will go back and read it more carefully when I get a moment..

    Gayane

  161. I agree Avery.. Paul’s retort should be read even more so than Joseph’s… very well wriiten retort…

  162. @Mehmed, I appreciate what you do and what you’re going through. My wife is Bolsahay and has a handful of Turkish friends who are likeminded and have too faced criticism. I wish you well and hope you are safe. I do not envy your position.

    @Avery and Gayane, why is it a retort? I agree largely with what Paul added.  

  163. Thanks for the education Paul and Joseph.  Great minds working together.

    Mehmed thank you for being an honest and moral person.  I am sorry that you have suffered for it.

  164. @Gayane: You are kidding me, right? :) I said I apologized at least ten times by now in this forum. I guess I should have stopped responding your comments after being called liar, anyways. 

  165. Avery, you say: “… male warriors invading from West Asia (aka Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains region).”

    Think about it a second. Let me help you. Clearly, you have no understanding of such basic concepts as the West and East. Mongolia is NOT West Asia. West Asia is Turkey, Iran, Caucasus. I cannot believe I have been wasting my time with a person who does not know the difference between East and West. I hope you are able to do better with Left and Right. Do I need to say anything more? It is taking everything in me not to do what someone might characterize as name-calling (out of respect for the forum). But come on … really? You really really dont know the difference between West and East?

    One more comment about your arrogant “critique” of a pretigious professional scientific journal. You call the sample size of 317 small. Based on what? Your gut feeling that 317 is not a large number? Did you for example know that a lot of the new drugs FDA approve are based on trial sizes below 50 people? I won’t overload your brain with concepts like standard deviation, margin of error, etc, since you need to first learn the West/East thing first. In any event, if you don’t like this particular article, then do you own Google search for DNA, Caucasus, or the like. YOu will find dozen or so similar articles and the sources. Here is one web site that popped up right away in Google. It has tons of references. And they all show the same thing: Modern Azeris and Turks essentially have the same DNA markers as the other local ethniticities, including Armenians. So if we came from Mongolia, then so did you. (the link is below). So my friend Avery, you cannot argue with science and biology. All these academic articles support my position. Check-mate.

    For example, look at the pie charge on this web page of the DNA compositions of different ethnicities. See how totally different Mongolian pie is from Azeris and our neigbors? Another interesting thing … You will see how much more Indian-originated Armenians are than the Azeris. There is nothing wrong with that. We are all mixed. You know, before such genetic studies were feasible, the Armenian mythodology was busy spreading BS like you are doing about the origins of modern Azeris. Now that the science is out, it will soon be a common knowledge what kind of a BS your position is.

    http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/sampling-data

    But then again, why waste all this time with someone who confuses West and East :)

  166. Gayane, you say: “But  facts remain facts.. I am sorry that it does not sit well with you but Turks and Azeris hav a very unfortunate and bad ancestry..it is not my who came up with this.. i don’t create history.. their ancestors were, are and will remain the nomad barbaric tribes and that is a fact……”

    Why do you keep spreading the same BS after I have pointed out scientific proofs against your position? DNA studies, etc. Or is scientific proof irrelevant to your fantasies?

    But let’s for argument’s sake, say, yes, Azeris and Turks are 100% ex-Mongolians. What makes Mongolians bad ancestors? They created and administered the largest empire the world has ever seen! What have Armenians done? If your ancesotrs were so superior to mine, then why did they get their butts kicked? Or, is that because Mongolians were barbarians? What do you think happen to barbarians if they today attacked the US? They would be pulverized. Why was not your science etc developed enough to repel Mongolians? Or were you ancestors just a bunch of farmer villagers lacking the discpline of the MOngolians to organize and their scientific and military sophistication.

    I know, I know, the Russian and Western history books refer to them as barbarians. Of course they would. They got their butts kicked too. Russian’s granddaddies were at the time a bunch of villagers living in wooden huts. They were the barbaric uncivlizied ones, not the Mongolians. The way you depict MOngolians is as if they were just a bunch of crazed butt-naked hordes running over everything on their path. No, weaponry, military skills, aministrative profficiency — these are all signs of a culture too. Besides, what exactly have the great Armenians really contributed to the world that makes you feel so superior to others? Yes, Armenians have a lot to be proud of. They are a great nation. But don’t aggrendize things so much that you feel superior to every one else.

  167. Mehmed, I for one honor your lonely struggle to serve the principles you believe in. You have rare courage. Good luck in the path you have chosen. I know it’s not easy. Not everyone would have opened up the way you have here. It is very sad that you have been so boorishly attacked.

  168. avatar Random Armenian // December 1, 2011 at 2:10 am // Reply

    Paul: “Is any mortal empowered with an ability to foresee what is and what is not going to happen?”
    I was speaking out of cynicism. And cynicism can cloud one’s vision. I was not making an argument from legal or moral grounds but from realpolitik. Realpolitik exists outside of the realm of morality and fairness. But it exists and is at play in the world. The USofA, the beacon of human rights, has played its share of this game and will continue to do so unfortunately.
    Also, I am quite aware of the connection between our genocide and the UN genocide convention thanks to Raphael Lemkin. My point was that, in my non-lawyer understanding, we cannot bring a formal case under the 1948 convention, the way it was done for Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, in order to establish that it was genocide. Because, again in my non-lawyer understanding, the 1948 law can only be applied to events after it’s establishment. I don’t believe that those involved in the Holocaust were put on trial under the 1948 convention.
    I also base my non-lawyer understanding on a legal opinion from the International Center for Transitional Justice. The request for the opinion was made by member of the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission. The opinion was that the convention suggests it was intended to be applied to events after 1951. The opinion also said that the convention’s definition of genocide can be used to describe past events and that the Armenian case fits the definition.
    And this opinion will be brought up by the major powers, because they would not want their own past to be brought in front of the ICJ.
    Obviously any preexisting legal paths are more than welcome for our case.
    As for the usage of the term ‘Mongol’, ‘Tatar’ etc. These terms do come with strong, emotional and negative connotations. And I’ve seen it used negatively, in addition to pointing out the origins of Turks and Azeris.

  169. avatar Haykanoush Janikyan // December 1, 2011 at 2:31 am // Reply

    There is so much to say, so much to share as a descent of 1915 Armenian Genocide survivors… I am a physician from Armenia and am very much thinking of ways how our societies could initiate a halthy civic movement in both of our countries and just compelling the argument that historic facts should be accepted bravely /and labeled as they are…. It is not hard: it is a matter of political will and commitment and there is yet a need to vitalize/and activate more healthy civil layers of Turkish society: surely then the reapproachement can really start. Denial is a a dead end. On a separate note, as an Armenian, I’d like to thank M. Namutenacip for his efforts- wish more Turkish people could strat re-thinking this way.   

  170. Thanks everyone for your nice words, I am flattered. I long to see my Turkish friends, relatives, neighbors to know and understand what happened to Armenian people, recognize the genocide and share their sadness. I believe in my people, I believe that one day they will understand that denial does not solve anything. Sooner or later, peace will come; clemency and tolerance are in the souls of the lands we share for centuries.

  171. @Kerim, even though I hate talking about genetics while talking politics, I have to say that I do not know you but I am more Armenian than Mongolian. Just look at the pictures of Armenians, Turks and Mongolians, you’ll see. 

  172. mr Namutenasip,

    My brother is quarelling with another boy. I know the boy is right .

    I and my brother  are from same parents.  

    Who should i save ?

  173. Random:  I believe de Zayas’ article best addresses our non-lawyer understanding of applicability of the genocide convention and preexisting legal conditions to the rights of Armenians. As de Zayas demonstrated, these rights do not derive from the convention; rather, the convention strengthens the pre-existing rights of the Armenians to recognition as victims, to restitution and compensation.
     
    You failed to reply where the major powers (that you think generally disallow any map alterations) were, when empires collapsed, lands were reunited, and new nation-states emerged?
     
    Re:  The terms ‘Mongol’, ‘Tatar’, etc. I personally use them to reinstate the historical fact that Turks and their branch Azeris are descendents of Seljuk Turks and Mongols who originated in the Mongolian steppes and areas around the mountains of Altay and, as nomadic warriors, appeared in the Armenian Highlands (of course, Avery), as a result of invasions and destruction of sedentary peoples of Asia Minor around the 11th century AD. Before 1918, modern-day Azeris were called ‘Caucasus Tatars’ or ‘Tartars’ or simply ‘Muslims’. I see no ‘emotional and negative connotations’ in stating the historical truth.

  174. Kerim.. and I explained to you as to why you look how you look. and Avery gave you another very well written post.. so go ahead and re read and stop embarassing yourself about your BS genetics..

    Thank you

        

  175. Mehmed Namutenacip wrote:  “It took thousands of words just to make you understand that I had already apologized (and there are some in this forum who still ludicrously demand an apology)”:  By ‘some’ you meant me, by any chance?  If yes, then I never actually demanded an apology. I only asked if you were ready to apologize, because you expressed atypical for Turks sympathy for the subject.
     
    He then wrote:  “I said I apologized at least ten times by now in this forum.”:  Not true. No one saw your clear-cut apology. You might have sounded apologetic, but you never uttered “I apologize”. But let’s take your “I said I apologized at least ten times” as your apology. Thank you for your courage. This may well be the first instance of apology from an individual Turk on these pages.
     
    He further wrote:  “Sooner or later, peace will come; clemency and tolerance are in the souls of the lands we share for centuries.”:  Hope you’re right and, sooner or later, peace will come. However, for Armenians in the souls of those lands harshness and intolerance existed more often than clemency and tolerance. Also, from 1915 on Armenians no longer share those lands for the reason you apologized for. And Armenians possessed those lands for thousands of years before they were made to share them for just five centuries with newcomer Turks.

  176. Mehmed- I went back to your links but I was unable to open the first link.. http://www.ozurdiliyorum.com (ozur diliyorum: I apologize).    it took me a page where I saw nothing but bunch of advertisements….

    I can’t read Turkish so your page was not much help to me..    
    I also reveal Ataturk’s racist ideas on my website, including the one he said “Armenians have no rights whatsoever in this prosperous country” (in Turkish), which drove most of my Turkish friends crazy.

    So at this point I have to take your word for it… and I do appreciate your efforts……

    However, what I don’t get is why you would want friends who scold you, threaten you and stop being friends with you just because you talk and stand on the side of justice as a human being)… I know my friends won’t go that far if the situation was reversed… They would not be happy about my stand but they will never do things like your friends did.. it means your friends were not your true friends… because a true friend or people who care about other people will understand and respect that each one of us have our own say in anything; especially if it deals with such crimes as GEnocide…..obviously there are alot of Turks who still refuse to admit the truth and will deny and reject anyone especially another Turk when and if the subject of Genocide comes up.. that is sad….

      and did I miss your personal apology on these pages… ??? Not references you sited but your own apology here… if I did, my apologies…

    Gayane

  177. Joseph… of course Paul’s was very well written.. brilliantly written.. why a retort?? well Paul was responding to your comments.. would not be considered a retort?? 

    Retort —to make a reply to, to say in reply… not sure why the question??? 

  178. I stand corrected on West Asia, Kerim: late night, my mistake. I stand by the rest.
     
     
    On the second link you provided. Under the title  “Y-DNA weighted population map of West Asia”, explain this:
    {the use of data from specific ethnic groups for each country was determined on the following grounds:
    Had to be native to the country within the past 100-150 years (with “native” being defined only on historically attested grounds}
     
     
    As I said before: we are not claiming you Tatar-Turks invaded yesterday, or 100 years ago, or 150 years ago.
    The historical fact of the Seljuk Turk invasion of the Armenian Highlands in 1071 at Battle of Manazkert  is no myth.
    There were no Turks in Asia Minor or West Asia prior to about 1000 A.D. Sorry, Turks are not indigenous.
    It is an indisputable historical fact that Turkic tribes invaded from East Asia.
    Their invasion routes and chronology are well documented: it is no mystery.
    No need for “historical commission”.
     
     
    Samples collected from people that have been present in a locale only 100-150 years means the Invaders gradually mixed with the indigenous populations, over 10 centuries.
    Where is the mystery ? 
    As was said above: by appearance alone, I can tell most people who call themselves Turks don’t look anything like  the Uyghurs, who according to FM Davutoğlu are the ancestors of today’s Turks inhabiting the country of Turkey.
    I don’t need DNA analysis to know that Mustafa Kemal with his blue eyes is not from Mongolia.
     
     
    The indisputable  historical  fact remains that  about 1000 years ago  Turkic tribes invaded both Caucasus and  the Armenian Highlands from their homelands in East Asia.
    The extermination of 2 million indigenous Armenians (1895-1923) by  Turks is no myth.
    The extermination of  indigenous Greek and Assyrian populations by Turks is no myth.
    If  ‘Turks’ are Armenians, why don’t  they call themselves Armenians ?
    Why do they continue to this day their campaign to  extinguish the Armenian presence in our homeland ?
    If ‘Turks’ are indigenous, who built those Churches in Historic Armenia that predate the arrival of Seljuk Turks by centuries ?
    See if your DNA analysis can answer those basic questions, Kerim-bey.

  179. Mehmed,

    I applaud your courage and devotion to democracy, free speech, and human dignity for all “children of the land”, a more sympathetic expression some Turks use  to refer to minorities. A much better descriptor than “leftovers of the sword,” as our raped, enslaved and tatooed grandmothers were once known.

    I now challenge you to use your skillls and courage to a higher purpose.

    I am sure you have seen the ATAA and affiliated websites, which spew Nazi-class venom against Armenians. The current President of ATAA has written on the internet that Armenians revere crime and criminals, are “hateful” and that Armenian culture is criminal in nature. 

    We have in ATAA and its affiliates, organizations which claim to speak for Turks in this country.  Clearly they do not speak for you, or other liberals. But there is no Turkish organization speaking in its own voice against these groups and outrages.

    Where were Turks last April 24-25? All we know is that hundreds of young Turks danced and hooted with joy outside Namik Tan’s Embassy for four hours.  One held a sign implying that Armenian women enjoyed being raped by Turkish men. You can see it on YouTube. Where were you?

    Where was the Turkish conscience that must condemn not only this demonstratiion, but also the fact that Tan invited these thugs into the Embassy for a tea and cookie reception? These are your people, they say they are speaking for you. Repudiate them and their viewpoint in a way that matters, well beyond posts.

    Nowhere do I see any organized liberal Turkish presence on the web, apart from a few posters such as yourselves, who take on these institutional voices. Its time to organize.

    The energies of persons such as yourself are best directed to meeting and defeating these ATAA voices, because they alone purport to speak for Turks in Diaspora.

    Every April 24, they alone purport to tell the press what Turks think. I challenge you to organize and make yourself known to the world’s press in advance of each April 24, and to every member of Congress that yes, many Turks disagree with ATAA, and the state, and acknowledge crimes against the Christians, Kurds, and Jews.

    This is my challenge and request of you.  

  180. Kerim.. this sentences below tells me how much you know about history and how respectful and understanding you are toward Armenians.. you are a very sad individual I am sorry to say..

    But let’s for argument’s sake, say, yes, Azeris and Turks are 100% ex-Mongolians. 

    FIRST OF ALL.. NEVER SAID you are 100% EX-MONGOLS.. this is the perfect example that you don’t read and digest the information.. you have an immediate reaction without reading our posts carefully… I SAID.. you have THE GENES and you are the descendents of MONGOLS/TARTARS.. the only reason you can’t figure out why you have so many mixed genes now is because your ancestors barbarically took everyon’s women to make their own by forced marriages, harems, and RAPE….do you understand this concept of taking what is not yours ???? apparently not… 

      What makes Mongolians bad ancestors?They created and administered the largest empire the world has ever seen! — IDIOTIC comment..

    What have Armenians done? If your ancesotrs were so superior to mine, then why did they get their butts kicked?  are you being proud of your heritage KERIM?  are you proud of your ancestors?  so you know very well that your barbaric ancestors did commit the crime of Genocide otherwise why would you say something arrogant and disrespectful like this.. You are a sad denialist……

     

  181. Gayane: Retort usually has a negative connotation: 

    Say something in answer to a remark or accusation, typically in a sharp, angry, or wittily incisive manner.

    I think “reply” was what was meant. Thank you.


  182. @jda, I agree with your idea about organizing but people like Mehmed are already putting themselves at risk (I also know more than a few Turks who share his sentiments and have suffered in various degrees for their out-spokeness). Some Armenians are going to have to join them at sometime but similar to the Turks, we have those, whether right or wrong can be just a nasty as the Turkish nationalists. We must honor men like Ragip Zarakolu and remind ourselves that they are human beings just like us.

  183. you forgot to answer my question Azeri Kerim-bey. I’ll re-state it:

    In 2005, Azeri troops completed the decades long destruction of about 10,000 Armenian Khachkars in Nakhichevan. Some of those were 1,500 years old.
    If ‘Azeris’ are indigenous to the land, why would they destroy irreplaceable historic treasures like that ?
    Do you deny that Azeri troops in uniform  (meaning under orders of their superiors) did it in 2005 ?
    Yes ? No ?
    If you agree they did it, answer the question: if Azeris are indigenous to the land, why would they destroy irreplaceable historic treasures like that ?
    (which would be theirs, IF they were indigenous – No ?)
    Who does that ? For what purpose ? 

  184. Mehmed Namutenacip wrote:  “I think referring to history could be helpful in order to understand how Ittihat ve Terakki’s racist ideology poisoned our bonds and relationship.”  Our bonds and relationship were officially those of a dominant ethnos and a second-class millet. Unequal as they were, those ‘bonds and relationship’ were not poisoned by the CUP – they were poisoned by the whole period of invasion of indigenous Armenians by Seljuk nomads and their colonization by Ottomans. It should be reminded that the ‘poisoning’ began not with the CUP, but with the Great Assassin Sultan Abdul Hamid II, who mass murdered up to 300,000 Armenians in 1894-1896. Was Sultan an Ittihadist? Hardly. It should also be reminded that Mustafa Kemal was hardly an Ittihadist when on his orders tens of thousands of Armenians and Greeks of Smyrna (Izmir) were burnt alive in 1922. Whoever the Ittihadists were: racists or samaritans, they were a part of Turkish history. Just like the Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid and the Dönmeh Mustafa Kemal were parts of Turkish history. Just as the past Sultans and remote Mongols and Seljuks were parts of Turkish history.
     
    Now let’s examine Mehmed’s claim that “historically, Armenians have always hold critical positions in the [Ottoman] palace.”  Noted is the change from his previous statement that Armenians “held critical positions in the Ottoman administration and army” to “Armenians have always held critical positions in the palace.” One of the definitions that Oxford English Dictionary gives for ‘critical’ is ‘having a decisive or crucial importance’. No one denies that because of their natural wit, intellect, and industriousness, Armenians made significant contributions in many fields during the Ottoman centuries and were, as we all know, “graciously rewarded” in 1915. But to say that Armenians held ‘critical’, that is: decisive or crucially important, positions in Turkish administrations or army is a sheer exaggeration.
     
    Suleyman Pasha was, indeed, an Ottoman grand vizier for just six months in the remote 17th century, from August 1655 until February 1656. He was a Turk of Armenian ethnicity, as might have been several other Turks. What is ethnic Turk, after all? Abdul Hamid II, a coldblooded murderer, was half-Armenian. Does this give us liberty to state that “Armenians have always held critical positions”, because Abdul Hamid’s mother was of Armenian ethnicity? Absurd.
     
    Couldn’t find anything on ethnic Armenian origin of Damat Halil Pasha, an Ottoman grand vizier in 1616-1619 and 1626-1629.
     
    Turkish sources say that Agop Gircikyan was an Ottoman ambassador in Paris: is ambassador a ‘critical’, that is: decisive or crucially important, position?
     
    Hovsep Vardanyan (Vardan paşa) was not a general; he was a colonel: non-critical position.
     
    Stepan Aslanyan was not a general; he was a war ministry’s staff member: non-critical position.
     
    Anton Tınkıryan was not a general; he was a naval colonel.
     
    Chief architect (never heard that Mimar Sinan’s real name was ‘Armen Sinanyan’) was a serving, not ‘critical’ position-holder, although this Christian Armenian had built most magnificent mosques to the shame of the Turks (not to mention the Balians, who designed and built the Dolmabahçe Palace).
     
    Palace doctors, jewelers, managers’ positions “historically belonging” to Armenians were serving, not ‘critical’ positions.
     
    Sultan Mehmed II permitted creation of the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople in 1461 not because he wanted to give ‘significant rights’ to Armenians, but solely with a political purpose of Armenian-Greek ecclesiastical and communal separation to ease his ruling (divide et impera).
     
    Another absurd: “Ottoman Empire [was] a federal system.”  Empire is not a form of government; empire is an extensive group of countries or nations under a single supreme colonizing authority. Therefore, to say that “Ottoman Empire [was] a federal system” is nonsense. A federal system is a system in which power is divided between one central and several regional governments. There were never any regional governments in the whole history of the Ottoman Empire.
     
    Finally, Armenians’ contributions part was not erased from the Armenian history books; we know that Armenians tremendously helped create and operate the empire of the Turks. But the reward they got in 1894-96 and 1915-23 was, indeed, conveniently erased from Turkish ones.

  185. Joseph: I’d like to thank you for bringing up the “retort” issue. It bothered me too and I was going to address it. It seems to come from an attitude of wanting to ratchet up hostility and confrontation as fast as possible rather than allowing a healthy dialogue to develop and get some traction. That is unfortunate because this forum has so much potential to bring minds together.

    Avery: You are driving the genetic thing into the ground. It has nothing to do with the issue of whether Turkey will be held accountable for the Armenian Genocide or not. 

  186. avatar John the turk // December 1, 2011 at 1:57 pm // Reply

    JDA

    It is simple.If you want to silence ATAA then organize a public discussion forum open to the public and prove them that they are wrong. 

    PAUL

    If everything is in Armenians favor why on earth you haven’t made an application to International Court of Justice so far? Scared the result? 

  187. Tallat the turk, as someone suggested as more appropriate pen name combination, oops, sorry, ‘John the turk’:   As you may see from the number of resolutions by foreign parliaments, local governments, international organizations, professional associations, human rights groups, advocacy groups, as well as statements by world leaders, Nobel prize winners, genocide scholars, and historians, everything seems to be in Armenians’ favor.  An appeal to ICJ?  Are you in a hurry?  We’re not. When the time is right. When? Whenever the international recognition of the Armenian genocide will reach the desired apogee. Have patience… it’s coming.  Scared of consequences for your unrepentant murderer state?

  188. sorry ‘Diran’ (in quotes). I was not the one who brought up DNA.
    Direct your complaint to Azeri Kerim-bey: first citation and  appeal to DNA in this thread was in his post.
    (second time you are showing your true colors pal.)

    Once again ladies and gentlemen complaining about ‘retorts’, and advocating “dialogue”, “honey”, “sweets”, “sugar”, “chilling”, “holding hands”, blah, blah, blah…regarding AG: go to a Jewish site or Jewish  group and attempt to dialogue about the Jewish Holocaust. Tell us about your experience  from your hospital bed or jail cell.

     

  189. Correction: www,ozurdiliyoruz.com (WE apologize, my bad).

    @Jda: I know about ATAA, and I do affiliate myself with them. I am not surprised to hear their opinions about Armenian, not surprising. I did not know there were Turks dancing on the 24th of April in USA, disgusting. And you are right, I should do something; I just put a post-it on the wall telling that I should start working on an NGO for liberal Turks in USA. I loved the idea, thanks for urging me :) Or maybe an NGO which highlights Armenian-Turkish bonds. What do you think? 

    Some of the websites of organized Turkish liberals:
    http://gencsiviller.net/ (Young Civilians, nationwide, Turkey)
    http://nahdanetwork.org/en/ (international, mostly in Middle East)

    A friend of mine just went to Yerevan for a EU political activism project last summer. I know many websites trying to raise awareness regarding the matter, including mine.

    Not enough, but we do exist.

    @Joseph: Thanks for your concern, but in Turkey we say: “don’t get on the train if you are afraid of iron” :) So challenge accepted, Jda was right, the world needs to see some Turks mourning for their neighbors on 24ths of April, not just dancing creatures. I am not afraid of facing nationalists, Turks or Armenians. I know their weakness; they cannot handle the truth, they cannot argue with me when it comes to reality :) They know how to “deny” historical facts, but they do not know how to “face” them. Therefore, ontologically, they are obliged to stay ignorant, so in my humble opinion, to lose. Ottoman Empire/Turkey is the best example.

  190. Joseph…you reminded us very well that this is, in many ways, a family feud of ancient pedigree.  Good work!  Perhaps a cultural therapist will surface who can help to make us right again?

  191. * I know about ATAA, and I do NOT affiliate myself with them. 

    that was a bad one, my bad :) 

  192. Turkish denialists once in a while bring up the issue of Turkish DNA that in some percentage has become common to the indigenous inhabitants of Asia Minor as a consequence of Seljuks and Mongols’ intermingling, abductions to harems, mass rapes, impregnations, Devshirme conversions, and forced religious conversions of Christian girls or infants. Of course, these ridiculous statements have nothing to do with the knowledge on origins of Turks formed in Central Asian steppes. Turkish denialists use the end result of intermingling with the sedentary peoples to engrain a false theory of Turks being indigenous, not migrant, to the lands where aborigine Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Persians, and Kurds lived. Their lame endeavors must be refuted and Avery has done a great job.

  193. Well said m AVERY JAN.. well said….. 

    Paul jan- apres.. sha lav asetsir… bravo… 

    Joseph and Diran:   I stand on my word “retort”… sorry to dissapoint you both.. 
    what I have read from your post Joseph.. all i read was excuses for those Turks who refuse to admit and repent.. I understand your view and I respect that but I don’t agree that we should make excuses for them.. When we do speak such things, people like Kerim Pasha, Necati Xhanum, and all the other Denialists get their jiggy up and run a mock… so retort was exactly the right word to use in the sense of responing to your posts…now whether or not is a word you approv or not.. really does not make a difference… it was a personal preference.. nothing against you two…

  194. Don’t worry Mehmed, I understood what you were saying. 

  195. Karekin –
     
    The best cultural therapy, in my mind, would be an official apology by the Turkish government.
     
    B

  196. Thank you Avery jan.. many forget this very crucial difference….

    Once again ladies and gentlemen complaining about ‘retorts’, and advocating “dialogue”, “honey”, “sweets”, “sugar”, “chilling”, “holding hands”, blah, blah, blah…regarding AG: go to a Jewish site or Jewish  group and attempt to dialogue about the Jewish Holocaust. Tell us about your experience  from your hospital bed or jail cell.

    So very true…. 

  197. Quick question. If the Turkish government admitted genocide and formally and genuinely apologized but did not do anything to pay reperations or give territory would that be enough? Because think about this: if the territory you called western Armenia was given to Armenia, what about the millions of Turks who currently live there? Wouldn’t they then need to move from their homeland to other parts of Turkey? Wouldn’t that be wrong too?

  198. Turk,  Azeri-Tatar-Turks and their friends visiting AW and complaining about Armenians: read this article, if you would, then come back and juxtapose that with your opinion of Armenians.

    “Turkish racism: an unpleasant story” 
    http://archive.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-racism-an-unpleasant-story-2010-07-13

    (I am pretty sure that was also the work of  Armenians who were really  ‘Turks’ who were  really Armenians who were really, really……  – right ?) 

    In case people forget: today, year 2011, this man’s picture is hanging in every Official Turkish office, and most Turkish public places. He is still venerated as some kind of a demi-God in Türkiye. Imagine for a moment visiting Germany today and seeing Hitler’s portraits staring at you everywhere you go. That’s where Turkish society is today.
    That’s what Armenians, all by ourselves,  face.

     

  199. Thanks for the link, Avery –
     
    Along with state-sponsored racism that author of the article talks about, one thing caught my eyes: craniometry of Sinan’s centuries-old skull. Silly Kemalists were measuring the skull of an ethnic Armenian in order to prove that he was of “pure Turkish stock”?!  OMG!
     
    For Kerim and the ilk:  “Schools [in Turkey] still teach a ‘Turkish history’ that starts with the Huns of Central Asia.” — Turkish Racism: an Unpleasant Story by Mustafa Akyol

  200. RVDV:  Did you find a provision in the Treaty of Lausanne clearly stating that it supersedes the Treaty of Sèvres? Did you locate the Republic of Armenia as a signatory to the Treaty of Lausanne? You avoided answering our questions, yet you jumped in the wagon again with a quick question. Is this a Turkish way of conducting a dialogue, a debate?

  201. ‘… genuinely apologized but did not do anything to pay reperations or give territory would that be enough? ‘
    Sorry RVDV, the answer is “No”. (I don’t represent anyone but myself.)
     
     
    Wouldn’t that be wrong too?’
    There are about 6 million Kurds (mostly, and some Turks) in “Wilsonian Armenia” (as far as my info)
    Yes, it would be wrong to them. But, it is up to the State of Turkey to compensate them and move them to a better locale. Turkey is a huge country, sparsely populated.
     
     
    Let me ask you a question: do you think is it not equally wrong to exterminate 2 million of our people, steal and confiscate US$ tens of billions in liquid and illiquid wealth, then just say “Sorry” – and that’s it ? Is that fair ? (BTW: please calculate and tell us how many millions those 2 would have grown into by 2011: thank you)
     
    If I accidentally plowed my car into your living room, destroyed your valuables, rare furniture, an irreplaceable antique vase,  maybe sent you to a hospital with a broken leg – would you accept just an apology or rightfully expect compensation for your losses, lost wages ?
    And why did Mr. Erdogan demand an apology AND compensation for the 9 murdered Turks on Mavi Marmara ?
    Why wasn’t it enough for Germany to just apologize to Jews and should be enough for Armenians ?
    Were our ancestors lives worthless  ? Were they somehow lesser human beings than the exterminated Jews ?
    Were they detritus,  as one Denialist Turcophile poster compared them to – right here @AW ?

  202. Paul: I don’t know why you are constantly trying to attack me. If you haven’t noticed I’m on your side. The genocide should be recognized and reparations should be paid, your people deserve that. I didn’t find a provision in the treaty in lasuanne so I guess you are right about that. But most places I read about lasuanne say it supercedes sevres but again that is not stated in lasuanne, I was wrong.

  203. Paul jan.. YES it is.. unfortunately.. they sure avoid questions but quick at jumping the wagon.. you got it my friend..

    Avery jan- thank you for the link.. Maybe it will enlighten Kerim a bit.. so next time before talking out of his you know what and insult people from left to right with his minimum knowledge…. maybe in the future, he will stop and think about blurting out nonsense…..   

  204. “What have Armenians done? If your ancesotrs were so superior to mine, then why did they get their butts kicked?”

    Kerim, the above  comment reveals an underlying prejudice against Armenians.  At least your true colors are showing and I can place your comments within the context of coming from someone who admits that the genocide really happened and who feels proud of being from the “winning” side.  Where did such mentality derive from?  Care to clarify or distance yourself from sounding like a cheerleader for murderers?

  205. ‘The best cultural therapy, in my mind, would be an official apology by the Turkish government.’

    Couldn’t agree more, Berch. 

  206. Mehmed,

    Here is the link for the 2010 party Namik Tan threw in your nation’s name on Embassy grounds:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WCXNn1EQvE

    There are other youtube links to this event and the far larger one held this year. Other video’s of the 2010 event show a young man smiling holding a sign saying something like “Armenian women like Turkish guys.” 

    This was very telling. This young man correctly perceived that the state endorses the degredation of Armenian life, and Genocide, It was an absolute disgrace.

    Yes! Organize your colleagues in the USA, and let the workd know that rape, Genocide and lies are a stain on Turkey’s honor.

  207. RVDV.. when someone is asking and requesting an answer to something YOU brought up and posted, it is not attacking but it to clarify your stance… don’t confuse these two please…. and avoid using words like attack or harass (like some of your comrades used to use).. Armenians don’t attack unless it is necessary…. (usually on a battle field)

  208. I hate to admit it, but I actually agree with Avery and Gayane on the “retort” thing. I too read Paul’s response to Joseph as a retort and not as a mere reply. But I guess I too was wrong, given the author’s own clarification (or back-pedaling).

    @ Avery, yes, I do agree that the DNA question has no bearing on the Genocide issue. It was a crime no matter where your DNA comes from. I brought up the DNA thing in response to your and others’ vitriol on how and why the ancestors of modern Azeris and Turks do not belong to the region and are outsiders. All the DNA studies disprove this claim. So you should cease this now-defunct argument.

    And to those who take my positive comments on the achievements of Mongolians to mean I am proud of the Genocide … well, that was a stretch, wasn’t it? But to come back to the Mongolian topic, yes, they committed a lot of violence, etc. But didn’t everyone else in history who conquered land do the same too? How do you think your Tigran created his Great Armenia? Did he do all that with a  PowerPoint presentation served with refreshments? Of course, Russians say they were especially cruel. But this is a subjective statement made by the side who was at the receiving side of the cruelty. We all think that: “Our enemies are especially evil!” As for saying “What have Armenians done?” , I did not mean Armenians have accomplished nothing significant. I was not belittling it, but was simply cautioning you not to aggrandize it at the undue expense (vis-à-vis) the achievements of Mongolians. 

    @ Mehmed, you misread my post on the DNA. The paper I report does NOT say Turks are generically closer to Mongolians than to Armenians. It was actually the other way around (althouh I would not say close to Armenians, but rather close to Proto-WestAsians). But the main thing I wanted to say, is I too commend you for your human right activities. Best of luck!

    And in conclusion, I will not write any more on this thread. It is getting too long. But I may be back on other treads (not that you care), although I will try to stay away (Avery, sorry in advance if my will-power fails). You might still say, why bother? Well, it is good to hear the opposite viewpoints. We Azeris do not have a good English-language forum like AW. No, not because we are Barbarians, but mostly because of your US Diaspora presence. Thanks to all for reading and responding to my 2-cents.

  209. Boyajian jan..  I had a post about Kerim’s so well written insult to our ancestors as well.. it shows how primitative his thinking is when it comes to human interaction and human rights… his very open Anti-Armenian and denialist comment goes to show that people like him truly do not belong among civilized nations… 

  210. @Kerim: Sorry, my mistake then (I hope this counts as an apology ;) ). I thought you were citing one of those arguments which abuse social Darwinism for political reasons. 

    @Jda: I know. It is not “news” to me, all of the government-state related websites including General Staff’s website have a section which tells  “so-called Armenian Genocide (sozde Ermeni Soykirimi)”. It is pathetic. But I am sure the majority of Turks will not deny the genocide if they actually know it really happened. I’ll try my best on that.

    @Everybody: Thanks for the insight and listening to what I got to say. I hope you put yourselves in my shoes and saw that it is very joyful to be on the “other side”. If you you wanna keep in touch, send me an email at info@endisesizmodern.com I may need your help when I literally start working on the NGO project. Cheers.

  211. My reason for asking the question was that to me I believe the Turkish government would only accept genocide if there was a compromise is the wishes of the Armenians. clearly, Armenians do not want compromise- nor should you- but a compromise would at least get it recognized. And later on that could pave the way for reparations and possibly territory transfer. Maybe small steps at a time would be better than waiting for one big one. I don’t know, I’m just trying to think of a way that the government would finally recognize it.,…… Paul: do your worst :)

  212. One destination I hope we reach is to appreciate aspects of an Ottoman culture in which all of our ancestors participated. I recognize that Christians had horrible legal and cultural disadvantages, no mattter how many Islimized and Christian Armenians or Greeks were “allowed” to rise.

    I wait to hear a Turk proclaim with pride [and not mere admiration] the genius of T’oros Roslin, or the majesty of Ani, and that will allow us in turn to celebrate Piri Reis, or the poetry of Rumi as being ours too.

    .

  213. you knowingly  ignored my Khachkar question, Azeri Kerim-bey: your non-answer gave me the answer. Since you are leaving this thread, a parting gift for you: please enjoy this article in a mainstream Azeri online news site.
     
    “Armenia is like a cancer on body of South Caucasus which needs to be removed”
    http://news.az/articles/politics/49434
     
    Note: a delusional individual, a so-called Doctor of History,  can say whatever he wants. 
            However, a mainstream Azeri news site giving him a platform is the issue.

  214. in all the excitement I did not get a chance  to acknowledge Functionary’s admonition to us all.
    ‘Functionary’  is right of course: land claims, unlike reparations, cannot be tied to the AG.
    However,  Prof. Ara Papian’s  thesis – that the Wilsonian Arbitral Award  is the unassailable legal basis for Armenian land claims – is stronger than appeal to Sevres.
     
    http://armenianweekly.com/2009/09/22/papian-armenia-and-turkey-are-not-authorized-to-define-the-border/

  215. *I hope you put yourselves in my shoes and saw that it is NOT very joyful to be on the “other side”.

  216. avatar Random Armenian // December 2, 2011 at 3:54 am // Reply

    “…which needs to be removed”
    That’s dangerous pre-genocidal wordage. The Azeribaijan leadership has been promoting the idea that Armenians do not belong even in Republic of Armenia (“we allowed them to settle there” etc.).

  217. avatar Random Armenian // December 2, 2011 at 4:09 am // Reply

    I don’t see a connection between the reunification of East and West Germany and that of returning lands to Armenia(ns). East and West Germany were both populated by Germans and the separation was acknowledged by the world until reunification, which happened on it’s own. The status quo was untenable.
    There are no Armenians in what is today eastern Turkey. Except maybe crypto-Armenians which would not number much. Most of the the world has forgotten that there were Armenians there and need to be reminded of it. We need to dig up and sort through old treaties to make the case. The world would not be in favor of upsetting the status quo of the current Turkish-Armenian borders and populations. Sorry but I don’t see the German reunification as a precedent for us.
    Unless maybe Turkey really pisses off a lot of the major powers, who in turn threaten land returns on to Turkey.

  218. It’s encouraging to see the 215 comments Armenian Weekly has received regarding Erdogan apology. I have read some of the comments and have found them of interest, thought-provoking. I would suggest that Armenian Weekly publish a summary of the comments as a news analysis item to give  an idea of reader reaction. It would be a great service for readers who haven’t read all 215 comments and also provide Armenians in general with an idea about the nature of the massive reaction from your readers.

  219. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 2, 2011 at 5:48 am // Reply

    Turkish Prime Minister has not developed as a political figure, said Kurdish activist, director of American-Kurdish Information Network (AKIN) Kani Xulam.
    In an e-mail letter to Armenian News-NEWS.am, the Kurdish activist residing in U.S. commented on recent apology for the Dersim massacres by Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan .    
    According to him, although Erdogan’s apology was unexpected it meant nothing.
    “His conditional use of the word, ‘If,’ at the beginning of his so called apology is quite telling.  He doesn’t mean it; he doesn’t feel it.  Dersim continues to remain disenfranchised as ever. Seventy or so years after the infamous massacre, it is now being buried by water due to the dams that the government of Turkey is building in the region.
    If he really means what he says, he would listen to people still living instead of just apologizing for the dead.  I guess he knows the Roman saying, ‘The dead can not bite’,” Xulam said. 
    He considers that Erdogan has sickness for headlines that are often devoid of meaning or truth or goodness.
    “He says Kurdish is legal in Turkey and that he has allowed a Kurdish television. He is basically lying on both counts.  Kurdish remains illegal in Turkey.  When Kurds in Diyarbakir who are accused of being members of KCK want to defend themselves in Kurdish, the Judge tells them they are speaking in an unknown language,” he said.
    As to the Kurdish television, Xulum claims it is controlled by Turks who are pretty much telling some Kurdish speaking Kurds what to tell the rest of the Kurds who are trapped in a political concoction called Turkey.
    “For example, they are not allowed to use the word, Kurdistan.  In other words, Erdogan and his ilk are the cancer of the Kurds.  Kurds will only heal and feel their humanity when they have put a border between themselves and the Turks. Till that auspicious development happens, Erdogan is only fooling himself,” he concluded.

  220. Don’t know if you’re still there Kerim, but you appear to be the one back-pedaling now.  

    Your comment: “What have Armenians done? If your ancesotrs were so superior to mine, then why did they get their butts kicked?”

    My objection to the above statement by you was not primarily to the suggestion that Mongolians were superior to Armenians.  You are entitled to your own subjective opinion. What I object to is the implication that you are glorifying a brutal history.  In your clarification you still seem to take pride in those who excel at raping and pillaging and ruthlessness in war.  I apologize if I am still misunderstanding your ‘positive comments on the achievements of Mongolians’,  but do you not think it is highly offensive, to suggest to the descendants of a nation that suffered a genocide that they ‘got their butts kicked’?

  221. RVDV, I think the point is to be careful about what conclusions you draw from what you read.  I too, have read the comments that state that Lausanne ‘superseded’ Sevres. Lausanne prevailed because of lack of will to enforce the provisions of Sevres.  I am not a lawyer, but this ‘default’ does not negate the legality of Sevres or the Wilsonian Arbitral Award.  

  222. A minor, but important historical tidbit?

    Treaty of Alexandropol
    The Turks, headquartered in Alexandropol, presented the Armenians with an ultimatum which they were forced to accept. However, this was followed by a more radical demand which threatened the existence of Armenia as a viable entity. The Armenians at first rejected this demand, but when Karabekir’s forces continued to advance, they had little choice but to capitulate.[25] On November 18, 1920, a cease-fire agreement was concluded.[7]
    However, as the terms of defeat were being negotiated between Karabekir and Armenian Foreign Minister Alexander Khatisyan, Joseph Stalin, on the command of Vladimir Lenin, ordered Grigoriy Ordzhonikidze to enter Armenia from Azerbaijan in order to establish a new pro-Bolshevik government in the country. On November 29, the Soviet Eleventh Army invaded Armenia at Karavansarai (present-day Ijevan).[25] Fearing the capture of Yerevan and Echmiadzin by Turkish forces in the case that the Bolsheviks should not arrive, the Armenians signed the Treaty of Alexandropol on December 2 with Turkey in which Armenia was to disarm most of its military forces, cede more than 50% of its pre-war territory, and to give up all the territories granted to it at the Treaty of Sèvres,[7] which was not ratified by the Armenian Parliament as the Soviet invasion took place at the same time.

  223. Was your post addressed to me, Random?  If it was, here’s a response. German reunification was brought as an example to demonstrate that world politics is not a static concept. Before 1989 no one could have dreamt about reunification of the two parts of Germany even if they were populated by Germans, but guess what: it happened. Of course, not on its own. It was the apex of the Cold War stand-off, in which sell-out Gorby was brought to the fore by international corporatocracy and secret societies to aggravate the collapse of the Soviet state by giving away, among other catalysts, territories under Soviet control.  Artsakh and Nakhichevan, which were illegally transferred to newly-created AzerBEYjan in the 1920s, had considerable Armenian population, but no one cared to ‘acknowledge’ the illegal transfer of historical Armenian lands until Armenians chose to restore justice by themselves in recent times. Yes, there are almost no Armenians in what is today eastern Turkey. Doesn’t the civilized world know why there’s none there? Of course they do. But for the time being it’s not politically expedient to redraw the regional borders. I have no doubt in my mind that borders will be redrawn, because (a) borders are a fluid concept; and (b) if not for Armenians’ beautiful eyes, but for some 35 million Kurds who inhabit not only southeastern and eastern parts of Turkey, but also the adjacent parts of Iran, Iraq,  and Syria.  Your statement: “The world wouldn’t be in favor of upsetting the status quo of current Turkish-Armenian borders and populations” doesn’t hold water. If this were how the world generally reacted to political transformations, then the world map would have statically remained as per Peace of Westphalia in the 17th century.

  224. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 2, 2011 at 11:54 am // Reply

    To Karekin,
    Your assertion of dates,occurrances  at that point  of time is appreciated.had  read  about  it in Prof. R.G.Hovhannisian´4 vole R.of Armenia.But  you have refreshed  our memories.
    W/Ref. to Erdogan´s CONDITIONED  apology( w/2 IF´s) Avery referred to and I confirmed  it,goes to show  the Erdogan does  not mean real Apology .Same was cinfirmed  by kurdish activist  in one  of  thedse threads -chek  them out please-thence no any trust  should be placed  in erodogan  great Turkey  diplomacy.They must change  that.Succomb  to reality.otherwise  we  ahve  to wait for their eventual downfall.   

  225. Karekin:
    Apparently the Treaty of Alexandropol is not valid because, Armenia had been taken over by the Soviets 3 days prior to them signing it. Apparently. My issue with Armenians claiming that the Treaty is invalid(I know you arent saying that), is if Armenia did not legally exist why didnt thr Turkish government sit down with their biggest supporters during the Turkish War of Independence, the Soviets. I assume (not saying I know this as a fact) that the treaty was good enough for the Soviets as they did not pursue border clarification as to where Soviet Armenia ended and where Turkey started.

  226. What is the point of using terms like “Mongolians” to disparage Anatolian or Balkan Turks?

    Modern Mongols are as good or bad as anyone else, and many modern ones fought shoulder to shoulder with Armenians in the Second World War. They are not Genghis Khan, despite the admiration they have for him.  It should not be a term of derision. We don’t call Germans Nazis anymore.

    Turks are not Mongols. The language may have originated in proximity to central or north Asia, but the genetic relationship is teuous and remote.   Anatolian Turks are the descendants of indigenous Anatolians and others who were conquered by Turkic speakers. Their genetics show they are related to their neighbors, including Hyes, far more than people in faraway Mongolia or Turkestan.  Nationalist Turks, have this strange idea of Mongol origins too. Turks romanticize it. They name their children  Cengiz, which is odder still.

    The Seljuks were defeated by the Mongols quite decisively, by the way.

  227. Karekin, please read Ara Papian’s ‘The Arbitral Award Is A Valid
    And Legally Obligatory Document’ at this site:
    http://www.ramgavar.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=222%3Athe-arbitral-award-ara-papian&catid=56%3Aramgavar-mamoul&Itemid=27&lang=en

  228. avatar Random Armenian // December 2, 2011 at 2:54 pm // Reply

    There has been mention of Turkish archives and their opening in this discussion. I have to say that I’m not confident about those archives, to put it mildly. If Amb Evans is still reading anything from this thread, the US officials and diplomats must understand something; trying to bring Armenian and Turks to the reconciliation and dialog table, using the Turkish archives as a definitive source to base it on, is flawed. It would be asking two sides to come to an understanding based on a source that one side controls! Turkey is motivated to manipulate the archives for their benefit rather than use it for an honest process of reconciliation and review of history. My only hope is that they have not destroyed documents but rather moved them elsewhere to be inaccessible. My hope is that nothing is irrevocably lost. My gut feeling has always been that when Davutoglu and other talk of archives, they’re setting a trap.

  229. Karekin, what do you make of this interesting tidbit?  My understanding is that the treaty of Alexandropol was never ratified.  True?  Plus the authority of the signatories of this treaty have been questioned.

  230. avatar Random Armenian // December 2, 2011 at 3:44 pm // Reply

    Mehmed, thanks for sharing your experiences. As someone else mentioned, I don’t envy the situation you have chosen to be in.

    For me an individual speaking up is worth more than an apology from that person.

  231. THank you Avery jan for sharing the link.http://news.az/articles/politics/49434. it totally exposes how Azeris view Armenians no matter how much BS they put out there for the world to see and hear…

    I particulary laughed so hard on the following statement by Markhulia….

    You give interviews to Azerbaijani media quite often, stand for fair resolution of Karabakh conflict and expose essence of Armenian expansionism in the South Caucasus. It is natural that your stance causes resentment of Armenian nationalists both in Armenia and Georgia. Have Armenians ever threatened you?

    Of course. I am threatened both via e-mail and cell phone. They call and threaten me. I sometimes feel spying behind me. Once Tbilisi woman of Armenian origin called me and screamed that I deceive Georgian students by telling them the truth about Karabakh conflict and ostensibly I have no right to teach. Armenians have even changed my surname. They write everywhere that my surname is not Markhulia, but Aliyev. I don’t mind, let them call me this way.

    Aweee he is threatened by a woman who called and said he is not fit to teach.. how dare she scream at him.. he should sooo hire bodyguards to protect himself from such barbaric actions shown by this woman.. poor poor Markhuli…

    But yet they have no remorse or heart to understand the magntitude of how Azeris and Turks handle threats… IN DAYLIGHT in Hrant Dink’s case…. inprisonment and murder.. this is how Azeris and Turks threaten …. DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE MARKHULIA… ???? so make sure you doors are closed and your bodyguards guard you 24-7 because a poor woman angrily called and screamed at you… you are so pathetic..

    another statement he used that was as pathetic as he looks… it is very odd that everything that describes what Azeribajian/Turkish govt  stands for he pins it on Armenians.. how typical of him..

    Armenians are going ahead with their misdeeds while we hope for assistance of world community instead of relying on our power in this matter.

    Armenia did not exist in the south Caucasus at all till 1918. There are no heroes of Armenian origin in Georgia. We have heroes of Azerbaijani and other origins who have fought in the name of Georgia. Armenians have always betrayed us. Let’s cite Abkhazia war as example.

    I had Armenian neighbors. But once the war started, they immediately set up Armenian battalion and began to fight against us, Georgians. Now Armenians live in my own house in Sukhumi. This nation cannot be reeducated. Betrayal and treachery run in their blood.

          
    I wonder what Kerim would think f this.. i bet he would agree with his BS 100%..
      

  232. Random Armenian jan-  my gut feeling says the same… who can actually trust and believe them low lives who are running Turkey right now.. who knows if they have not destroyed everything they have…. why would they keep them .. it will only destroy their chances to advance their denialism and lies….

  233. My post to Kerim did not come through so I will try again…

    Kerim- you are not the only denialist who decided to leave these pages after being caught lying red handed… when they are pushed in the corner and there is no way out, they decide to leave the discussion… it is unfortunate… however, i know for a fact if and when you answer Avery’s questions directed to you, you would have been exposed to be an absolutel fool because the answers to the questions clearly discredits all your BS about Azeris being on the lands first, Azeris were superior that is why “we got out butt kicked”…. well .. as you can see.. you got yours kicked…. this is why it is always advisable to get your facts straight then come here and spew your rude, arrogant and Anti-Armenian posts….

    If you believe your comments were positive.. think again… think also about how much you are no different from your barbaric ancestors who raped, murdered, stole, and deprived what is right and just for human beings by weapons and bloodshed… you on the other hand do the same thing with your lack of intelligence and denialism…. think about that.. maybe one day you would understand that Armenians were, are, and will never take the steps your ancestors did to deliberately erase an entire nation… maybe then you will understand why we feel how we feel and what we truly demand…

    But i am skeptical because i doubt you have the capability to feel compasion and have intelligence to accomplish that.. otherwise you would have said what you said below…

    What have Armenians done? If your ancesotrs were so superior to mine, then why did they get their butts kicked?”

     Departing note to you KERIM; What have Armenians done????? Armenians along with other Christian nations that were wiped out by your ancestors created the wealth and the country you are now living and enjoying…….   

    May God give you heart/mind/conscience

         

  234. Uyghur News, Thursday, 28 October 2010:
     
    Turkish FM Visits Uighur Region during China Visit
    Ahmet Davutoglu, who has become the first Turkish foreign minister ever to visit Uighur Autonomous Region in China, toured historical sites in Kashgar city.  Davutoglu and an accompanying Turkish delegation arrived early Thursday in Kashgar in the extreme west of China and the extreme southwest of Uighur region. Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China.  “We are visiting the land of our ancestors,” Davutoglu said.

  235. I think the point of using terms like “Mongols”, as strictly geographical/ethnic term, is to refute Turks and Azeris’ false assertions that they, like Greeks, Hittites, Armenians, Parthians, Assyrians, etc., are indigenous, not migrant, people to the region. DNA studies may show that Turks and their extension Azeris in certain percentage have similarities with indigenous inhabitants of Asia Minor, but the argument Avery and others are making is not defunct at all. It’s been repeatedly stated, based on common knowledge on the origin of Turks and Turkic peoples, that genetic similarities that some DNA studies may find are not the consequence of Turks’ belonging to the region before the 11th c. AD, but a consequence of their ancestors—Seljuks and Mongol nomads’ intermingling, intermarriages, abductions to harems, mass rapes, impregnations, forced Devshirme conversions, and forced religious conversions of aborigine populations. These DNA commonalities do not disprove of the fact that Turkic people were originally outsiders to the region. Their origins are commonly accepted to be in the steppes of Mongolia and plains surrounding the Altay mountains. From there they’ve invaded West Asia and Asia Minor and then adopted the culture, language, script, cuisine, and other civilizational traits of the sedentary and more civilized local populations.

  236. Random:  “trying to bring Armenian and Turks to the reconciliation and dialog table.”  This is an erroneous language that’s been refuted at the times of TARC. Why are you using it again? What ‘reconciliation’ can there be between an unrepentant murderer and a victim? To reconcile is to re-establish friendly relations between two or more former rivals, interstate war belligerents, or civil strife parties, etc. Armenians did not, repeat: did not act as a rival or a belligerent state or a civil strife party for the Turks. Armenians were subjected to forced deportations and indescribable barbarity that accompanied their mass extermination as a people. What are we required to ‘reconcile’ about with a nation that’s not even acknowledged the catastrophe that befell us in their hands? What ‘dialog’ can we conduct with such an unremorseful, self-centered, uncompassionate nation?

  237. RVDV:  Soviets, as a signatory to Lausanne, no longer exist. Therefore, the only valid treaty between Turkey and Armenia, signed by legitimate governments, not revolutionary outlaws like Kemal & Co., is the Treaty of Sèvres. Lausanne might be good for the Soviets because they could care less for the sufferings and land losses of the Armenians and because Kemal at the time pretended to play ‘Red’ and received large amounts of gold and ammunition from Moscow to wage the so-called ‘war of independence’, which for Armenians, sandwiched between Kemalist Turks, on the one hand and the Bolsheviks, on the other, essentially meant losing Kars and Ardahan in addition to genocidal extermination and the loss of Western Armenian provinces.

  238. ‘who knows if they have not destroyed everything they have…’ Gayane,  dear, unfortunately Denialists Turks are way ahead of us:
     

    “WikiLeaks: Ottoman Archives ‘Purged’ to Hide Genocide” http://asbarez.com/98020/wikileaks-ottoman-archives-%E2%80%98purged%E2%80%99-to-hide-genocide/

     

  239. Berch,

    The idea that you can call an Anatolian Turk an “outsider” to the land is ludicrous. Their genetic endowment is pretty much the same as everybody else from the same area. Moreover, we all agree that something and someone Turkish has been there for 1000 [unhappy] years, so they are not outsiders. Oppressors, yes; Enemies, yes; outsiders no. 

    You fall into the same trap the idiotic Grey Wolves are stuck in by harkening back to some asserted if nonexistent Mongol place of origin for the ancestors of Anatolian Turks. The language, some customs, and some cultural norms may well have a Central Asian origin, but that does not make them Mongols, anymore than an English speaking Phillipino or New Guinean is  an Anglo Saxon just because language and the culture it brings are in common.

    Yes, Davataglu and Erdogan have made pilgrimages to Mongolia. Been there done that. Yes, they have this romantic belief in a Mongol heritage, but its baloney. Central Asians do not feel much affinity for them, they laugh at them behind their backs, but they are happy for their tourism. They view Turks as just another kind of middle easterner. The type lacking petrodollars.

    The process by which a few conquerors speaking x conquer y speakers and make them speak x is very well known. Its how Celts conquered the natives in Ireland. Ultimately, one might say its how the Armenian language got to the Highlands. When we insist that we predate even the Armenian language because we are indiginous, we are accurate.

    Our dealings with Turks will not advance by denigrating them as outsiders. It may advance on the basis of truth, not by calling them silly names they ignore.

    Let their nationalist Nazis  keep their ridiculous belief that they are all Genghis Khan. They view your insult as a mark of honor. We’re the only people calling them Mongols, by the way.

  240. ‘ Soviets, as a signatory to Lausanne, no longer exist.’  Russian Federation is the legal Successor State of the USSR (as it had the largest landmass, had the most population, etc).
    Russian Federation assumed all Assets and Liabilities of USSR (Russia paid off all the debts of USSR to the West). (BTW: Republic of Turkey is legal Successor to Ottoman Empire)
    Russia also legally replaced USSR in all international treaties, agreements, etc.
    So whatever was legal under USSR signature is legal for Russia. 
    That’s also  why Russia was able to assume one of the 5 priceless Permanent Security Seats at the UN, as legal successor state to USSR.
     
     
    The Treaty of Lausanne  was signed in 1923.
    In 1920 The Democratic Republic of Armenia had ceased to exist as an independent state.
    And Lausanne was also when the new Republic of Turkey was internationally recognized (note the year 1923).
    Soviet Union was founded in 1922.
    The Sevres Treaty is the only treaty that bears a signature of a legal representative of Armenia, and the legally recognized Ottoman Empire.
    And as Paul noted, Kars and Alexandropol were signed by internationally unrecognized entities: criminals and revolutionaries Kemal and the Bolsheviks.
     
     
    I believe Ara Papian’s Wilsonian Award argument as a  legal basis for return of Armenian lands is very strong.
    VTiger has provided the link above: well worth the effort to study Papian’s work. 

  241. Berch and others. 

    this person who posts under ‘jda’ is not the same as the  Armenian ‘jda’ that used to post @AW about a year ago. This one appears to be a sophisticated Turk propagandist.
    Not crude and blatant as others, but very subtle, highly sophisticated.
    Nevertheless, writings and advocacy are at opposite ends of the spectrum from the old ‘jda’. 

  242. Paul:
    Genocide denialist Turks often say that the genocide happened in the Ottoman Empire, and how the founders of Turkey had to even fight against the Ottomans so therefore Turkey cannot be blamed for the genocide. This is very obviously not true at all. Turkey is the successor state to the Ottoman Empire and assumes the role as its legal successor. Doesn’t the same go for the Soviet Union and Russia? Russia assumes all of the Soviet Unions rights and obligations, so therefore although the Soviets no longer exist, a nation (Russia) does it exist that assumes ALL of rights and obligations. I would  therefore argue that Russia is essentially the signatory in the Treaty of  Lasuanne. Since Armenia was then part of the Soviet Union, Armenia in a way (although not that they had any say in it) was a signatory of Lasuanne- although again it goes down as Soviet Union. And as Russia assumes all obligations of the Soviets- the Treaty of Lasuanne is the more valid treaty.
    Note: I am not sure about this, I am wondering if you know Paul: Although Russia assumes all duties of the Soviets, Russians today do not control Armenia. So my question is, according to my logic above, would the Russians even have the legal right to uphold a treaty (Lasuanne) that concerns lands that they have no sovereignty over? Because that would mean I wasted a lot of time writing the above paragraph lol.
     

  243. Jda: TRUST me Armenians are not the only ones that call us Mongols. Greeks always call us mongols. I believe they may even think they border a country called Mongolia :).
    Berch: Can you please explain to me why I should be offended by being called a Mongol? From what Mongol history I know, they sound like an impressive group of people, nomadic people who somehow make the biggest continuous empire the world has ever seen. I mean, sure, they had their share of atrocities, but then again, which conquering people haven’t done that to some degree? And does having Mongol DNA or Mongol genes mean? Does it mean I am less of human? Does it mean that my genes and DNA are second class to yours? Does that make Turkish peoples lives less valuable than those who do not have “Mongol Blood.” And look, there are only like what, 7 or 8 countries that truly like us, mostly in central Asia, don’t spread lies like they dislike us and laugh behind our backs.
    If you want to offend Turkish people I would recommend calling us Serbs. There may be widespread dislike towards Armenians and Greeks and Americans, but most people flat out despise them, especially after what they did to the Bosnians  ( I KNOW how hypocritical that sounds and how hypocritical that is, dont tell me.)

  244. RVDV.. you are just wasting words.. how many times does one need to explain to you the difference between the treaties… wow……

    JDA— how convenient for you to use a name that most of us recognize from the past.. however as my friend Avery said.. from your writing style and your sly way of advocating for the Turks it is obvious you are the same JDA we know.. so instead of hiding behind another’s name come up with your own name …. what is the problem? you can’t find a name that represents you and only you???   

  245. Boyajian/RVDV – I really don’t have an answer, but thought I’d put that bit up for discussion, because it’s an interesting element. We all know that sometimes hindsight can be 20/20 vision, but often forget some key details of the past.  I’m sure that the prime goal of the Armenian leaders at that time – above all else – was the basic survival of their people, many of whom were refugees from Turkey, and their new country…small as it was.  I just don’t know what other or better options might have been available to them at that moment.  The problem is that whatever happened, happened. If it was not the best, then everyone had to make the best of it and move on, I suspect.  At the time, we had no leverage, no strength…nothing to keep Armenia alive. It was pretty desperate. If they had not gone that route, would we have Hayastan today?  I don’t know.

  246. RVDV: your post was addressed to Berch, but I will respond to parts of it. I don’t think Berch would mind.
     
    Berch: Can you please explain to me why I should be offended by being called a Mongol? ‘
    In which one of Berch’s posts did he say you should be offended ? point us to it, would you please.
     
     
    don’t spread lies like they dislike us and laugh behind our backs.’
    The expression  they laugh at them behind their backs,’ was used by the one posting under ‘jda’, not Berch.  {jda December 2, 2011 Yes, Davataglu….. petrodollars.} paragraph.
     
    Apologize to Berch promptly and withdraw your accusation.
    (you did NOT confuse the two: in the same post you addressed both ‘jda’ and ‘Berch’)
     
     
    And kindly point to the post(s) @AW where we, Armenians, have used ‘Mongol’ in a pejorative sense, or intimated Mongols are lesser human beings, or anyone’s DNA is second class to that of the Armenians’.
     
     
    And one more thing RVDV: I am not sure – yet  – if you are genuinely interested in exchange of knowledge, or are playing dumb to toy with us.
    If it’s the latter – don’t bother: we have seen it all. 

  247. Gayane: See as the no one honors the treaty you claim is valid, and the one you claim is invalid is the one that is widely accepted, several times. Armenia never signed Lasuanne, Turkey never ratified Sevres. Good luck winning that argument at the UN.

  248. Avery:
    Thanks for pointing out I was referring to a comment not made by Berch
    Berch: I apologize for that, I meant no disrespect
    Avery: I am not playing dumb. many people here claim Turks are uneducated about Armenians. I admit I am uneducated about Armenians and I just want to really understand your points of view. About the Mongol thing. Greeks use it as a derogatory term and I assumed Armenians did as well. If that is not the case I apologize for that too.

  249. avatar Random Armenian // December 3, 2011 at 1:58 pm // Reply

    paul,
    Yes borders do change with the acceptance of the international community. But I do not believe that you will win an argument with them by comparing German reunification with return of lands from Turkey to Armenia. They will see that there were German populations on both halves and yet no Armenians on the eastern Turkish provinces, populated by Turks and Kurds. You also gave examples of how the international community does the opposite and does not stand up for the right thing when it comes borders. The Hatay province is another example.
    Unhindered access to the Black Sea would be critically important to Armenia. But I’m cynical that it would happen. Please accept my cynicism for what it is, given that you game me examples of why I should continue to be cynical.

  250. avatar Random Armenian // December 3, 2011 at 2:32 pm // Reply

    paul,
    Regarding your reply to my mention of reconciliation and dialog. These are going to happen at some point. I have no problems with dialog with individual Turks and even NGOs*. Individuals such as Mehmed in this forum is someone to have dialog with, even if you disagree with him on various points.
    I understand your point however. The mess we’re in was caused by one side through genocide and antagonistic policies. The Turkish government has made it very clear what their attitudes are towards Armenians and there has not been a shift in this even with the superficial changes on the surface. They have made this clear to not only the Armenian diaspora but to Armenians in Turkey who have learned to live by keeping a low profile and not rock the boat. The term reconciliation can imply that there is some equal fault between the two parties. And this is a characterization used against the genocide itself.
    Any dialog and reconciliation at the governmental level will involve politics and national interests. It will also be flawed because one side has the upper hand through control of historical records, powerful allies and economic blockade. And there is naivite amongst those such as the US trying to promote reconciliation and dialog that Turkey will be an honest actor in it. That was what I was getting at regarding the use of Turkish archives as part of the reconciliation process.
    One example of the misguided and confused method of reconciliation is Dr. Pamel Steiner’s comments http://armenianweekly.com/2011/04/05/cemal-pasha/
    Turkish and Armenian history is such a mess that ironies abound. Dr Steiner’s comments vs Hasan Cemal’s while in the same room. The fact that the leader of the CHP, Kılıçdaroğlu, is an Alevi who’s family was exiled from Dersim. Frankly, I don’t blame odars for not getting it.
    * Need to be careful with NGOs or other Turkish groups. If I remember right, the other year a group of Turkish youths associated the AKP were in Armenian and there was some sort of controversy about them crossing the border. by simply walking across it (or something like that).

  251. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 3, 2011 at 4:17 pm // Reply

    There are so many issues to be clarified in the context  of both our Genocide Recognition/Restitutions,which can be considered A REAL CASE/CAUSE TO WORK FOR,and another to get RE-ORGANIZED.Sorry to bother some people,with my this slogan, or MOTTO repeating  it,but I believe  more  in REAL POLITIK/Action, rather  than JUST PAST history confirmation re-confirmation.Not that I underestimate  study of history.No, for God´s sake.Example? ONLY A FDEW DAYS AGO IN A BOOK BY Prof. Richard g. Hovhannisian(entitled  KARIN)he has written for a fdew  of our western armenia  Provinces.this  dear to me, as my father and ancestors are from there) I came across  his wife Vartiter Kojolpozian Hovhannisian´s DZITOGH Dashjti karno,(so vividly describing the area,)wherein in one chapter mention is made  of KARS!!!
    That  caught my attn: We all know-those  who follow history re developments from 1908-to 1923 and on to our days..that  an important Cache  of  weapons/ ammunitions,foodstuffs  were left  or  FELL  INTO THE HANDS of Kemal´s  general on that front, KIAZIM  KARABEKIR.  Not  so!!!! The truth  is that  there were Russian troops  there then -some still there that  is and the assignment  of DESTROYING  SAID CAHCE was handed  over to a russian officer.Latter  treacherously  HANDS ALL TO THE TURKISH ARMY..Indeed, one can feel free to surmise speculate  not for the eyes  of the Turks, but some possible  BAKHSHISH!!!  the Armenian soldier  who has  narrated  the above  important passage,shall we say  of THE UTMOST  IMPORTANCE, is sincere.
    You see,  the Turks also needed  more weapons/ammo and food to fight  on and this improved immensely their stance. Antranik  and Dro and many others  who were there could have possible  stood  their ground and thrown back the Kiazim karabekir´s army.
    By gones are by gones,but I hope (Nzhdeh followers)especially will insist  that  no any odar should be  considered a s OURS… we must  only RELY  ON OURS!!!
    As to ARA Papian,I have  met with him in a session at the Armenian Academy of Sci.later  even corresponded  with  him on the internet.Ex RA ambassador To Canada.He is reviving  what  my dear friend alias Prof. Arthur Beylerian,Paris  France  Book entitled ¨Les Grandes puissence, L´émpire Ottoman et les Armenien¨ dans les Archives Francais,  a  Compilation  of DOCUMENTS,Sorbonne,Paris,CLEARLY OUTLINES THE importance  and authenticity  of the Sevres Treaty.Thence Mr. Papian is actually re-stating what  is in the ARCHIVES,mentioned. I did not wish to mention,better  not , that  he,Papian ,after said session ,in a group  in Lobby downgraded  our French Armenians  a bit.Never  mind I shall overlook it.Main issue  here  is that we must  learn from the past History and mistakes  there. In this case more  than defending our rights,our thrust FWD ,shall I say,we should be non committal  towards others ,when they are so towards us and reciprocate only  EQUALLY. Few  here may know ,but in the ex-soviet army our boys ,when stationed abroad,(I have had contact with them) referred to Russian comrads as SOKHs(Onion) in oerder that  they would not the Russians that  is, get wind  that amongst themselves Armenians were talking  about  them.Moreover,in a subttle way they wished to show  off there superiority too, believe  it or not.Witness our marshalls such as Baghramian  and a  few others over estimated  both by us and russians .by latter, so as the Armeniasn would be thus caressed and give  more Armenian lives(read soldiers9 to fight for  them and on our side to prove  locally in Armenia  that ¨see  the mother Patria  is appreciating  us..not so they took over  IMPORTANT PLANT  IN ARMENIA OR TWO OF THEM , for a 120 million bucks debt,whereas they could have bestowed  that on the Veterans and or heris  of those martyred  ,more   than  200,000…making them shareholders..
    thence  please  understand  the Russian ,in general  ought to be considered by us as another European country or European, that  puts  its nations/country´s  interest FIRST.
    Learn armenian to be a bit EGOTIST, soory to say so,but  that boils down to that.Am not saying totally  , but a         b  i  t !!! 

  252. Avery –

    Precaution taken, thanks.  I know that this ‘jda’ might be a Turk or a Turkophile and that he or she simply stole a pen name used at the time by an Armenian poster. Stealing (lands, cultural traditions, private properties, pastures, bank accounts, etc.) is not alien to the Turkish extremists; Armenians know this firsthand.
     
    ‘Jda’  –

    1000 years represents roughly one fifth of Armenians’ overall physical presence in Asia Minor. Therefore, for Armenians, Parthians, Assyrians, and Greeks, whoever came to the region just a millennium ago is, from the chronological point of view, an outsider. I already explained why Turks’ ‘genetic endowment’ is somewhat similar to a few of other people in the same area: these genetic similarities are not the consequence of Turks’ belonging to the region at all times, but a result of Seljuks and Mongols’ intermingling, intermarriages, abductions to harems, mass rapes, impregnations, forced Devshirme conversions, and forced religious conversions of sedentary populations. As for ‘the same trap’ set by ‘idiotic Grey Wolves’ that you think we fall into by reiterating the historical truth that Turks have originated in Mongolian steppes, we actually don’t fall into any trap. We just re-state what you can find in any history book or online publication on the origins of the Turks. No one here actually called the Turks ‘silly names’; we just pointed out to the fact that the ancestral homeland of their nation before the battle of Manzikert in the 11 century AD, was in Mongolia. This is a widely accepted, proven historical fact. No one here alluded that your origins make you Mongols, but to deny the fact that you’ve become Turks only after your nomadic ancestors have invaded the area and adopted the cultures of more civilized people, is foolhardy. Stating the truth cannot be categorized as ‘denigration’. The truth must be reiterated every time any Turk or a Turkophile attempts to assert that their nation, too, is indigenous to the region. No, Turks are originally migrants and they know that whether or not they pretend to ignore the fact. Again, no one here actually called Turks ‘Mongols’. There’s nothing wrong of being a Mongol, but to claim the lands and cultures of others as their own, because at some point in time Mongol hordes have invaded an area, subjugated locals, and then adopted their civilizational traits, is a sheer historical distortion, which must be refuted. Avery and others are doing just this without denigrating any nation.

  253. Random:  I bet you’d never imagine that a part of historical Armenia, Artsakh, could become an independent entity, because just 20 years ago, if you lived at that time, you might have believed that such a major political-territorial transformation would heavily depend upon “the acceptance of the international community”, as you do now. But guess what: it did happen. I’m not saying that annihilated and thus non-existent Armenians of eastern parts of Turkey would act as a catalyst for territorial alterations in the country, but I believe Kurds hold the serious potential of being one. Cynicism doesn’t help any cause. All the just causes in the history of mankind were won by the people inspired by optimism and faith.

  254. RVDV:  I’m not an international lawyer. All I know from my readings into the subject is that with the break-up of the Soviet Union and the re-emergence of independent states, including the Republic of Armenia, the Treaty of Lausanne, bearing the signature of the USSR and no signature of Armenia, cannot be valid for the modern-day Republic of Armenia. Russia is the successor state of the USSR, and, as such, it respects international treaties and agreements signed by the Soviets as applicable to the jurisdiction within the boundaries of Russia’s territory, not the territories of the new subjects of international law formed after the break-up of the Soviet Union. No treaty can be mandatory for a party that hasn’t signed it. That’s a legal axiom. The only treaty that was signed by the legitimate government of Armenia, on the one hand, and the legitimate government of Turkey, on the other, is the Treaty of Sèvres. Whether or not Turkey ratified it, the fact doesn’t diminish the validity of the treaty. In addition to it, the U.S. Mandate for Armenia prepared by President Woodrow Wilson on the recommendation of the Allies exists and no one announced it null and void so far. Whenever Armenia goes to the courts for the restoration of justice for genocide, this international Mandate will serve as a basis for our rightful claims. Thanks for ‘good luck’ wishes, but don’t get overjoyed: whatever the outcome, these will not be easy times for Turkey.

  255. Paul:
     
    You say “whenever Armenia goes to the courts..” Armenia has been an independent nation for 20 years, why have they yet to go? Gathering evidence to make a more legitimate case or for some other reason? If I were Armenian I would be really angry with my government for not going to courts until now.

  256. How do we explain this contradiction between two different accounts?

    Sona Hakobyan “Radiolur” 18.11.2011 18:32

    Professor Richard G. Hovannisian, AEF Chair in Modern Armenian History at UCLA, delivered a lecture on Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award today. Under the Wilson’s Arbitral Award, Armenia was granted the provinces of Van, Bitlis, Erzurum, and Trabzon. US President Woodrow Wilson issued the Arbitral Award on November 22, 1990, while the Supreme Council of the Allied Powers had decided to apply to the President in April. In reality, this was a trap, Richard Hovhannisian says. “They would like to lay the responsibility for the Armenian Cause on Woodrow Wilson. What’s surprising is that Wilson fell into that trap. Why, if he knew that the Senate would never accept that mandate? Senators were advising him not to pose the question, as it could turn worse for Armenians.” Wilson is a hero for Armenians today. However, his political mistakes further contributed to the Armenian tragedy. “Look, the Supreme Council applied to him in April, but the directive came to Senate only in November. Wilson signed it in ten days, it was sent to the US Ambassador in December. When the decision was handed to the great powers, the Republic of Armenia had already stopped existing.” Part of Armenia was conquered by the Turkish army. The other part voluntarily declared a Soviet Socialist Republic on December 2, 1920, which is now the Republic of Armenia. “If the Arbitral Award was implemented, it would grant Armenia 160 000 square km instead of the current 30 000.” As for the Treaty of Sevres, it was not ratified by any country. It was followed by the Treaties of Moscow and Kars, as well as the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923, with which the great powers actually buried the Armenian Cause. Thus, Richard Hovhannisian does not attribute any legal importance to Wilson’s Arbitral Award. He says, however, that the Armenian authorities must use the document as a diplomatic tool and draw lessons from the past not to face similar problems in the future.

    from   http://www.armradio.am/news/?part=pol&id=21357

  257.  If I were Armenian I would be really angry with my government for not going to courts until now.’ You are not Armenian, RVDV.  Just the same,  your advice to us Armenians is greatly appreciated of course. Your sincere concern for the welfare of Armenia and Armenians is truly touching. You believe that, don’t you ?
     
    Anyway, if Armenians had listened to the advice of Turks,  Artsakh would have been completely ethnically cleansed of Armenians by now. Instead of being  free, independent, and secure. Thank God we listened only  to ourselves, for one of the few times in our history.
    And don’t worry about us: we know what we are doing. Worry about the future of Turkey: division into many parts is coming. Have no doubt. The process has already begun.
     
     
    Diran: Prof. Hovannissian is a smart man. He knows much about our history. He is a Professor. But one man’s opinion and interpretation  Many others do not share his opinion. US Supreme Court has 9 legal scholars on the bench: more often than not, they see the same (clear) US Law, and arrive at diametrically opposite opinions.  Majority vote become law. Just because Prof. Hovannissian does not believe in the Wilsonian Award, does not mean he is right.
     
     
    Here is a question:
     
    The (infamous) Protocols contain this Fifth Clause: “Confirming the mutual recognition of existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law”  (which after ratification by both parties would become binding on RoA).
     
    Why would official Turkey insist on the inclusion of that particular clause if it was so confident of the legality of Lausanne?
    Turks have an excellent track record of diplomacy  and strategic planning years into the future. They rarely make strategic mistakes. So why insist on its inclusion. To what end ?
     
     


     

  258. Diran: Great post. Gives a fair, neutral view of the issue.
    That pretty much settles it for me. Thanks for tolerating my comments (somewhat) everyone. I hope the genocide will be recognized, but territory claims just don’t like they will happen now or anytime in the foreseeable future.

  259. Avery: Yes, I believe you. Although we may not agree I am glad we can have a respectful discussion. Concerning the split up of Turkey, I have said many times that I am a Turk- and I do consider myself a Turk, but I am actually and ethnic Kurd, so I do know very closely of the brutality of some Turks- my great grandfather was in fact hanged for trying to hide Armenians. And even if the Kurds get an independent nation and Armenians (though i think unlikely) get a part of Turkey I will be happy for them, so I am not too concerned, no matter the outcome.

  260. I will state that principles should apply equally.
     
    Armenia should annex all the lands, including Artsakh and the surrounding territories, and incorporate them into Armenia proper, along with return of Nakhichevan.
     
    In return for the Turkish acceptance of the annexation and agreement by Turkey for reperations, the border between Armenia and Turkey can be fixed.
     
    A grand bargain is what is needed. 
     
    I am speaking as a nationalist Armenian when I state that the lands in the majority of our Armenia were controlled by the Turks for 90% of the time they occupied the lands, so Turkey as a state is the conqueror of historical Armenia, which is their ‘fruit’ by benefit of their successful military operations.  However, the actual property itself, in terms of the real estate, is still owned by the descendants of the Armenian businessmen and families that were annihilated, despite the theft, the actual property is still legally the property of the heirs, according to Middle Eastern and patriarchal law.
    In simplification, regardless of the reasons of the death of my ancestors or parents, it does not change the inheritance.  For example, if a person was killed in 9-11, their wives, sons, and daughters would inherit their property as US Citizens.  Similarly, Armenian citizens that were killed by the terrorist and fascist Ottoman regime during the Armenian Genocide, WERE AND WILL REMAIN Citizens of the Empire, Turkey, and all of its successor states. 
    Therefore, as Armenian citizens and as the 12-17% of the Ottoman Empire as its direct citizens and people, we should seek remedy from the successor state, Turkey, not for lands (as we were the ‘loyal citizens’ of the Ottoman Empire = Turkey for the duration of the genocide), but for the theft, destruction, and personal property restitution of the rights of our grandparents as citizens of Turkey and the OE.
    The apology that has to be made is for the complete betrayal of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire and Turkey.  The simple and overwhelming fact is that the Ottoman Empire and Turks destroyed the Armenian population in 1915-1916 (90% of the deaths).  During this time, ALL of the Armenians deported were Ottoman Empire / Turkey (SAME thing) Subjects and therefore, this was and is a simple case of the State destroying a part of its own population. 
    In order to demand restitution and justice, we have to start from the beginning and progress from there, crime by crime, village by village, day by day. 
     
    Our ancestors were not rebels or combatants, they were the loyal citizens of the Ottoman Empire / Turkey who were destroyed for political / monetary gain during WW1 and we should approach this issue on the moral basis of the military dictators in WW1 in Turkey destroying their own citizens in order to approriate their wealth pure and simple.
    The Turks contend that they acquired their lands during their ‘War of Independence’.  If that is the case, then Armenians acquired lands during their ‘War of Independence’ in 1992 and it lands won during war are fixed, then it should apply equally.
    The Ottoman Empire did not invade Armenia in 1915 and destroy the citizens of a foreign land.  They ‘deported’ and destroyed THEIR OWN CITIZENS.  Their was no ‘War’ with ‘Armenia’ in 1915, this was a Military destroying its own citizens – ALL of whom were non combatants, as ‘Enemy Armenian Armies’ CANNOT exist when they are subjects and citizens and part of the Ottoman Army.  (For example, the United States can’t attack and kill U.S. Citizens of Mexican Descent in Los Angeles by stating they are part of the Mexican Army as it the Owner of Los Angeles).  Similarly, the Turkish / OE Army controlled the territories in which they committed the Armenian Genocide (logically, if they didn’t, how could they remove Armenians if they didn’t have total control?).
    I do not view human beings or history through a prism of good and evil, only through human nature, which is geared towards ambition, fear, and greed, which were the motivations of the OE / Turkish military in destroying their own subjects.  
    The final calculation was not a pan-Turkic empire, but a matter of making sure their ‘base’ in the heartland was secure in case they lost (which the insiders knew was likely).  The analysis of the military in 1914 was that if they lost everything, they would regroup to the heartland and use the destroyed Armenian’s wealth and the power of the immigrant Balkan Muslims who were going to replace them. 
    So, before any other issue, Turkey should apologize and return the property of its own CIVILIAN NON_COMBATANT CITIZENS (i.e. Armenian Genocide victims in 1915-1916).  From that first point, we can proceed to its violations against the 1st Republic of Armenia.
     
     
     

  261. avatar John the turk // December 4, 2011 at 8:13 am // Reply

    Paul
    If we rely on the legal basis why on earth Armenian army doesn’t withdraw  from Karabakh? 

    As you clearly know that Karabakh is an Azerbaijan territory. 

    Why do you think that all the changes will be in Armenians favors in the future. How about If the changes will occur in favor of great Turkey.
     

  262. avatar John the turk // December 4, 2011 at 8:44 am // Reply

    Avery

    First thing you must do to achieve something you want is being honest. You keep telling us that Armenians are 12 millions but one Armenian poster has already expressed the reality. By the way, in order to get 10 millions Armenians in the world. you need to count some 2 millions in Turkey. what a great calculation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

    We are fooling ourselves. We are mixing OLD data from countries like Lebanon (234.000 armenians, although in reality only 40-60.000 remain) with NEW data from western countries. As a result many armenian migrants are double-counted (first in the country of their origin and than in the new country).

    This is how we get 10 million armenians worldwide figure. In fact the only “engine” behind armenian population’s growth was/is Armenian SSR/Republicof Armenia. When it reached the pick of its population in the mid-80s, the Armenians worldwide stood at about 7 millions.

    Since that time our numbers only diminished – in Republic of Armenia (due to labour migration to the rest of the world) and in Diaspora (due to disastrous assimilation processes).

    I would be happy, if these days we count somtheing like 6 millions, of which only 3-4 millions are capable of speaking Armenian language. But I got a feeling that the reality is much darker.

  263. “And even if the Kurds get an independent nation and Armenians (though i think unlikely) get a part of Turkey I will be happy for them”

    Do not even try that,  or get ready to go to  HELL…! Anyone who wants to break up my Holly country deserves this.

    Tarih tekerrürden ibarettir. .. History repeats itself .

  264. RVDY, why would a Kurd think of himself as an ethnic Turk?  Turkey was built on the backs, blood, sweat and stolen treasures of the indigenous people of the region.  So many forced marriages, conversions and rapes later, who and what is a Turk?  Why should ‘Turkey’ have the right to force you to take on the identity they choose for you?

  265. John the Turk: 

    Pasting a post from ArmeniaDiaspora.com by an anonymous poster and using bold font does not make it real.  
    Obviously the individual who wrote that post knows nothing about Armenians.
    It’s a tired old technique: Turks use phrases like “we”, “we Armenians”, etc, and then proceed to spew out Anti-Armenian disinformation. Too amateurish. 

    Being able to speak Armenian is no determinant of what makes one Armenian. Neither is the traditional ‘ian’ or ‘yan’ last name. Many Armenian-Americans barely speak a word or two of Armenian: yet they consider themselves “more Armenian” than me, even though I was born in Armenia.

    Obviously some totals listed on that site are unreal: there are no 2 million Armenians in Turkey. There were 2 million++ around 1915: Most were  exterminated by Turks. Some managed to escape.

    In any case, 12 million is the correct estimate: I will tell you some day how it was arrived at if you are nice to me and respectful. Many of your previous posts do not inspire confidence.
     

  266. ……and we will patiently await for RVDV, who says he is a Turk, but in reality a Kurd who thinks of himself a Turk (….very confusing), to respond to unambiguously, proudly Nationalist Turk,  Turk-oglu Necati Genis.

  267. So necati denies the Armenian Genocide but then states, “Tarih tekerrürden ibarettir. .. History repeats itself.” This pretty much sums up the mentality of most in Turkey—we didn’t do it, but we’ll do it again if you make us angry. Interesting.

  268. Joseph…I’ve heard that fear expressed more than once in Turkey, by Kurds. They are most likely the new Armenians, in more ways than one.  

  269. Joseph; I was also horrified when I read “Tarih tekerrürden ibarettir. .. History repeats itself.”  I saw it as a veiled threat of what would be done to us if we did not back off from any land claims.

  270. Necati:
     
    The Vatican is Holy, Mecca is Holy, Jerusalem is Holy, some could argue that Istanbul is even holy in a sense. Eastern Turkey is just mountains and rocks- it is not holy and it is not your land- it is MY land. Go outside of a government building in eastern Turkey and see if anyone understands you. I left Turkey to escape religious and ethnic persecution. As you say, history repeats itself- the Ottoman Empire breaking up was history too- so be ready for another break up. You seem so ready to fight yet for centuries your Ottoman Empire had Greeks, Albanians, Bosnians, and Serbians trained as janiserries to fight for them. In other words, your Turkish ancestors didn’t even fight their own battles. Turks even used Kurds in the Armenian genocide. Make no mistake- without Kurds there could never and would never have been Turkey. Oh, fun fact, the star and crescent in the Turkish flag have nothing to do with Islam, they have to do with pagan Tengrist beliefs.
     
     

  271. Boyajian:
     
    I was born in Turkey, and speak Turkish. My parents and grandparents do as well, though they were forced to learn it. As you say, Turkey was built on the blood and sweat of its indigenous people- I agree. That’s why I am more Turkish than someone like Necati could ever hope to be.

  272. It is always very tragic that the most extreme Turk nationals are of mixed Armenian & other heritage. Most of these people commit suicide similar to that famous CHP member.They need help.

  273. oh yeah, Perouz: it was a threat all right, and not veiled at all.
    Here is our guest in his own words (a very tiny sample of his prose):
     
    {necati says: July 15, 2011   yes…we deny it…so what ???}
    {necati says: July 15, 2011   no soil to you nor to kürtish, not even a pebble…! so,,, what is your next step?}
    {necati says: July 15, 2011  was not 1million killed by Turks, it was 10milyon…so what ?}
    (posted @Asbarez)
     
    {necati August 20, 2011 sorry to tell you..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians…this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians .you made me an animal.} (posted @AW)(redacted)
     
    Quite a large number of similar hateful  postings by a variety of Turks @TZ and @HDN: unfortunately Mr. Genis is not alone.
    VTiger is right: they need help.

  274. avatar john the turk // December 4, 2011 at 3:11 pm // Reply

    RVDV
    You have a point here. I most probably have a mix ethnic origin.but being turkish is a cultural identity rather than ethnic identity.Armenians may not understand this.if you take away the Kurdish, Alewi, Azeri and many other contributions from the Turkish culture. We would be look like a man with no leg.however i can also understand Necati’s frustration as so called freedom fighters are cowardly killing our soldiers

  275. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 4, 2011 at 4:52 pm // Reply

    Land,always land.Have  you been to R.of Armenia,Artsakh?
    Thre ios enough there to house  over 6/7 million people in addition to those there!!!!
    Please let´s be realistic.Land is not given or even bistowed  back  upon  us  out  of pity or  hurting  conscience.Like once  General Kenan Evren in the 80´s  90´s retorted when the angry Armenian young  men were performing  so to say ¨ corrrectional acts  of violence¨ and I quote ,Armenians want  land? ¨come and get  it¨.Believe me their mentality has not changed, only 3.5 yrs ago in a conference when pro.R.G.Hovanissian showed  slabs  ofrelics  from Armenian churches  and bldgs w/inscription on in Armenian   of 5/6 Provicnes  visite  in w.Armenia (their Anadolu) thus showing  those  laands were populated by our ancestors. In lobby at refreshments(I write telgraphically,please excuse) this man  is preaching-they said or he had hinted   he was ex Turkish officer, Armenians want land  come and get  it….I told kids  to go back and tell him we shall do  that legally. You see  I had also told him  that  we shall be brother  sisters  and live side by side,but `please firs settle accounts¨ when he went away muttering  accts accts!
    MY VIEWPOINT?  officially   c  l  a  i  m , at  ICJ8BY OUR 500 STRONG bar aSSOCIATION)preparing the file___     B  L  O  O   D      M O N E Y .tHIS HAS PRECEDENT,LIKE THOSE  FROM ny liFE  AND SETTLED  FOR pOLICIES  OF THOSE slaughterred  in ottoman Turkey,Also most  importantly  the JEWISH FROM GERMANY..
    This  also  tremendously  difficult,especially   these  days  of Global Crisis, but again my suggestion  would be from MONIES  PAID TO GREAT TURKEY AS  OIL TRANSIT DUTY, A PERCENTAGE TO BE PAID TO ARMENIA ARMENIANS BY  THOSE  COIL COMPANIES  that by passed Armenia INTENTIONALLY.It was the shortes t    R  O  U  T  E !!!!
    You people forget  what  is  CASH AND GO AFTER SOMETHING  THAT  IS squattered  in by ALMOST  UNMOVABLE  KURDS  THERE…..MILLIONS  OF THEM.THAT  HAS TO BE  WAITED  FOR..WITH  PATIENCE!!!!! 

  276. RVDV:  Armenia didn’t go to courts so far because throughout 20 years of her independence there were more critical issues to solve: (1) liquidation of the consequences of a devastating earthquake that hit Armenia in 1988; (2) in-flow of hundreds of thousands of refugees escaping Azerbaijani pogroms and massacres in Sumgait, Baku, and the adjacent areas to  Artsakh; (3) shock and chaos that the sudden break-up of the USSR has produced; (4) post-independence challenges requiring putting your house in order; (5) war of self-determination in Artsakh; (6) the task of defense of Armenia’s borders and providing security for the Armenians of Artsakh; (7) arduous nation-state building process with two of the four neighboring states posing a constant threat.

  277. My country is Holy because almost every square centimeter is flooded with  the blood of millions of  Turkish martyrs. 
    Remember : Soil is “Country” (vatan)  only if there are people died for her. So this country is Holy.

    You say: “I was born in Turkey, and speak Turkish. My parents and grandparents do as well, though they were forced to learn it.” With your logic, every one  in the US except British   is forced to learn english…

    You probably heard that no student applied for  “Kurdish Language Department ” in the universities..why ?

    About flag: i see nothing wrong with  pagan Tengrist belief, do you? If only we could keep  our original religion instead of Arab religion.

    And i think you are not a kürt but a Turk Alevi or Zaza. am i wrong?

    Kurdish and Armenian friendship today is fake.  Whenever they get in same room without Turks,  kurdish people will cut Armenians again. it is like “Tom and Jerry” .Kurdish people are  not easy to get along with.
    You say: ” Turks even used Kurds in the Armenian genosid”. Dont you think Kurds were ready for long time waiting for a spark to cut Armenians  to grab the land they think theirs ? You know even today they claim same things.I asked in here AW many times the question who is the real owner of the land, for example Van, Agri..Nobody  had a clear answer with one word.

    For janniseries you may be right, and it could be reason why Ottoman Empire got lost some wars. Turkish Independence war was won by only Turkish soldiers and civilians No other ethnicity, no Kurdish .

    Avery,

    I love my country. (i know you too do.) This means i am a nationalist ? Then i am an ultra-nationalist. Yes i am not alone. 90% percent of people living in Turkey.
    BTW: Dont  be so happy with some articles written by pro-AKP  so-called scholars  in  The TodaysZaman .

  278. John the turk:  Artsakh (Karabakh) legally never was an Azerbaijani territory, because before 1918 there was never such a nation-state as ‘Azerbaijan’.  The 1919 Treaty of Versailles denoted the region as ‘disputable’ and postponed the decision on its belonging to Armenia or newly created Azerbaijan until a national referendum. Note that Armenians composed the prevailing majority of the region. When Azerbaijan was Sovietized, Stalin by his unilateral decision gave the region to Azerbaijan where it remained as an autonomous oblast (province) until it declared its independence from Azerbaijan even before Azerbaijan has declared its independence from the Soviet Union. By the way, Azerbaijan has declared its independence within the boundaries of the Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan that existed from 1918 to 1920, to which Artsakh never was a part.
     
    I think that the changes will be in Armenians’ favor in the future, because Armenians have endured immense sufferings and injustices: 2 million human beings exterminated; three fourths of historical Armenian lands stolen; all of the private properties, bank accounts, and insurance indemnities appropriated; and our entire cultural heritage either destroyed or transformed to mosques or sheep cots. These losses were gains for Turkey. What other ‘favors’ for Turkey do you expect to have?!
     
    P.S.  Could you think of a more realistic pen name than ‘John the turk’? Really, how ridiculous is to combine a Biblical name with a name of a Muslim nation representative?
     

  279. Necati:
    If you really just said only Turks fought in the Turkish War of Independence, give me some of what you’re drinking. Of course Turkish history books don’t tell you how Ataturk promised a Turkish-Kurdish federated state if the Kurds helped the Turks in the war.
     
     

  280. Paul:
     
    John is also in the Quran. He is sometimes referred to as John and sometimes as Yahya (Arabic version of John).

  281. Necati –
     
    You say:  “My country is holy because almost every square centimeter is flooded with the blood of millions of Turkish martyrs.”  This is not true, because the theatres of wars that Turkey waged were mainly in the Balkans, Crimea, and other Ottoman possessions at one time or the other in history. During the WWI Turkey also waged wars in the Western (e.g. Gallipoli) and Caucasus (e.g. Sarikamish) fronts, but guess what? No Turkish blood was ever shed in the eastern provinces inhabited by Armenians. Just think of how many more “square centimeters” of eastern Asia Minor are flooded with the blood of millions of native inhabitants: Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians, savagely slaughtered by your ancestors. Do these barbarous acts still make your country “holy”?

  282. avatar Random Armenian // December 4, 2011 at 9:58 pm // Reply

    Here’s the wiki page on the name John, listing versions in multitude of languages.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_%28given_name%29
    The name is based on a Hebrew new. If Christians can use it, then I don’t see why it can’t be used by Muslims as well.

  283. John the Turk.. here is a revelation for you.. YOU sir know very well that Artsagh and surrounding areas along with most of the lands Turks live in belong to ARMENIA… NO AZERBAJIAN (the made up country) OR TURKEY… you get it now???

  284. and it does not matter if you are copying and pasting another comment John the Turk.. you always make sure when you address everyone correctly… and next time if and when you are quoting someone (not sure if you did on the above post I mentioned).. YOU PROVIDE POSTER NAME instead of just copying and pasting and pretending you are doing us a favor…

  285. Necati Xhanum… you said

    And even if the Kurds get an independent nation and Armenians (though i think unlikely) get a part of Turkey I will be happy for them”
     
    Do not even try that,  or get ready to go to  HELL…! Anyone who wants to break up my Holly country deserves this.
    Tarih tekerrürden ibarettir. .. History repeats itself .

    I would not worry about the person who said this going to hell because he wont…. you already got several seats in HELL so one less seat that you are trying to give away won’t work.. so worry about your precious self because it is very very hot down there… and you have the best seat in the house… don’t think we forgot your notorious and ugly comments toward my people and ancestors…   

  286. RVDV.. i have to say i was a bit surprised by your comment to Necati… very impressed… thank you …. i understand now after reading few comments that you are trying to understand the history behind what truly happened.. have to admit i was a bit frustrated with few of your previous comments and took you another denialists Turk with BS information that they are soo good at spewing on our pages..

    if you are genuine in learning and opening up to more accurate history and what happened then more power to you…hope my comrads will provide you with much needed accurate history and facts.. again this is only if you are geniunely want to learn… 

    Also, if you are Kurd then be proud of it and call yourself a Kurd.. it does not matter if you were born in Turkey.. it does not make you a Turk… you are Kurd first… and a Turkish citizen… that is all..

  287. avatar John the turk // December 5, 2011 at 2:59 am // Reply

    Paul

    No I do not represent a muslim nation because I am a devoted christian 

  288. Necati..

    You said
    Avery,
    I love my country. (i know you too do.) This means i am a nationalist ? Then i am an ultra-nationalist. Yes i am not alone. 90% percent of people living in Turkey.

     I say you are a someone very unstable… you definintely need help… sorry… you don’t love your country.. that is not your country.. you may have been born into it, lived and grew up there but you have been living a lie… your country belongs to those who created and made it to what it is now that you soooooo vehemently claim is yours..

  289. avatar John the turk // December 5, 2011 at 8:23 am // Reply

    Paul
     RVDV:  Armenia didn’t go to courts so far because throughout 20 years of her independence there were more critical issues to solve. 

    Your above comments is a lie. When somebody read your comment they will think Armenians are just one person who can not deal with everything at one times. Don’t you have a law department at the state level? Don’t you have hundreds of lawyers regarding international issues? Yes you have but you are  scared the court verdict.  Otherwise the issues you make excuses have nothing to do with your possible court case.

  290. John the Turk: well said. Armenia is in a region where there are countries around it that do not like them. They are going to have many problems, as most newly independent countries do. This is not an excuse for seeking justice.

  291. What we have are many dogs fighting over the same bone. Would it not be more advantageous to everyone to learn to live together, rather than launch endless zero-sum games into eternity?  Although some prefer to focus on the negative aspects of imperial rule, at least one major benefit of the Ottoman, Soviet and other empires was their ability to force disparate peoples into a situation where they would interact with each other, engage in commerce with each other, live with each other, eat with each other and enjoy their lives and complain about their shared complaints, rather than each other. This endless bickering and squabbling is an unproductive waste of time, energy and intelligence. What has it produced for anyone over the last century? Yes, state brutality, abuse and oppression should be opposed across the board, but refighting the past as if we have any leverage to change it is not working to anyone’s benefit. The cacophony of pseudo-intellectuality shown here reminds us of hens squacking and scratching in the barnyard. Good things can only be built and sustained thru cooperative effort, tolerance – on all sides – and a willingness to see everyone succeed and prosper – not just your own community. So, put aside the turf battles and let’s all try to work and discuss issues as adults for a change, without descending into the sandbox mode of the kindergarten.  

  292. RVDV:   I know that Biblical John is honored as a prophet in Islam as “Yaḥya ibn Zakariya”.  My father was an orientalist and I know how heavily Quran has adopted from Christianity and Judaism.  Nonetheless, “Yahya the turk”, to me, would sound more realistic than “John the turk” if a person is Muslim.

  293. John the Turk:  You mean to say you a Turk (understood as citizen of Turkey), but you’re a Christian by faith? Meaning you might be an Armenian, an Assyrian, a Greek or a voluntarily converted Muslim?  How do you identify yourself, anyway?

  294. John the turk:  As a “devoted Christian” don’t you know the basics when you falsely accuse someone of lying?  I mean one of the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour”. You accused a person of lying in a blink of an eye. That is one genuinely “Christian” behavior, let me tell ya.  I repeat for the second time bearing in mind that you’re John the Turk: newly independent Armenia had to survive in a hostile Turkic environment and put the house in order first. These were paramount problems at the time.  As a “devoted Christian” you should know that there is “a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together” (Ecclesiastes 3:5, Holy Bible).

  295. RVDV, what is a ‘Turk’ to your understanding?

    Random Armenian, thanks for the link to the wiki page on the name John.  With all the objectionable things that ‘John the Turk’ says, I hope we can now stop wasting our time arguing with him about his name.  There are much more important issues to hash out besides what he tags himself as.

    Karekin, the fastest way to peace is for Turkey to simply tell the truth to her own people and the world.   You should not expect Armenians to accept the lies that Turkey tells to cover-up a shameful past.  Why should future generations of Armenians have to carry the burden of deciphering a disputed historical identity?  A truthful acknowledgment of the events is the very least that Turkey owes the descendants of murdered Ottoman Armenians.  Then the business of co-existing can be undertaken.

  296. RVDV –
     
    You said, “Armenia is in a region where there are countries around it that do not like them.”
     
    Why, Armenians have ever mass murdered any of the neighboring countries’ populations, just like Turks did? What we know for sure is that countries around Turkey and beyond despise your nation because all you could do throughout history is to invade, colonize, loot, rape, steal lands and pastures, steal culture, religion, script, and language and savagely mass murder innocent people. Give this a thought, if you will.

  297. Karekin –
     
    It is a shame and a demonstration of silliness to portray Armenians’ fight for international recognition of the genocide and restoration of justice as “dog fight over the same bone” or a “zero-sum game” or “hens squawking and scratching in the barnyard” or “kindergarten sandbox”. I don’t think you realize that by doing so you, in effect, put the murderer and the victim on an equal level, as if Turks and Armenians were engaged in a war or a revolutionary strife on the opposite sides of the barricade, hence they now “bicker and squabble”. The picture is divergently different. Turks (Ottoman-turned-Ittihadist-turned Kemalist) were mass murderers avoiding acknowledgment of their crimes until now. Armenians were victims and demand justice.  Do not ever juxtapose two different historical roles, two different fates, two different causes, and two incomparable cultural behaviors and levels of national maturity.
     
    Do not as well try to juxtapose imperial rules of the Ottoman and Soviet empires in terms of their impact on Armenians.  Although any empire is colonial in nature and thus loathed by the peoples who were forcibly colonized, the Soviets did not bring mass death and devastation to the Armenians. On the contrary, the Soviet metropolis encouraged the advancement of science, technology, culture, medicine, education, and sports for their peripheries and protected them legally and militarily. The Ottoman empire brought humiliation to her non-Turk and non-Muslim populations assigning them a millet status with unbearable taxes and grave limitations on basic civil rights and freedoms, unequal treatment, and exposure to violence. Ultimately, all the native Christian subjects of the empire were slaughtered en masse. Have you witnessed any such barbarous behavior à la Turk in the Soviet Union?

  298. sorry Karekin: you are barking up the wrong tree (…hey, don’t complain: you brought up the ‘dog’ metaphor).
     
     
    Armenians have no problem living with others: never have, never will (Iran, Syria, Lebanon ,Iraq, Egypt, Ethiopia, France, USA, Russia,….)
    We have a problem when others try to exterminate us because we are Armenians.
    Go and preach Kumbaya to your Turk and AzerTurk buddies: convince them, if you can,  to leave us alone.
     
     
    And don’t waste time with useless bromides like This endless bickering and squabbling is an unproductive waste of time, energy and intelligence. What has it produced for anyone over the last century?’
    How many times we have to light up the neon sign for it to  register in your mind: in the last 20 years it has produced free and independent Artsakh, where Armenians can finally live free from daily persecution  and secure from extermination. And don’t bother bringing up recognition and all that jazz: you know  the answer you’ll get.
     
     
    And this beautiful sentence that you crafted ‘The cacophony of pseudo-intellectuality shown here reminds us of hens squacking and scratching in the barnyard.
    Look in the mirror pal, and don’t be cocksure.

  299. RVDV,

    i gave one of the links showing a list of martyrs distribution for each city. But  it is cencored by AW maybe because it was  not in english.

    You can find many sources by simply making a search in Google ,

    search string: “Kurtuluş savaşında Kürtler varmıydı ?”

  300. Karekin.. i am tired of your advice to Armenians.. and your preaching on how we should handle ourselves and how we should do this and that.. i know it is mostly directed to us.. I don’t see you advocating being tolerant and understanding and working together to Turks… why are you telling this to US??? i don’t get it… have we ever showed a strand of refusal to be understanding and compassionate toward Turks? NO.. have we refused to accept those who are willin to stand on the right side of the spectrum and respect human lives?  NO.. have we lumped EVERY TURK into one basket of mentally disturbed and notorious denialists?? NO.. have we said we hate all Turks and don’t want them around? NO.. have we showed any aggression, THREATS, foul mouth/ugly words toward the entire Turkish nation?? NO… have we demonstrated a collective disgust toward any ordinary TUrk? NO….

    but guess what ???? Nationalist Turks (and I believe one of the denialists on this thread said majority, i believe the number was 90%??? that think like this).. will have an answer of YES to my questions…..

    So i understand your motive but unfortunately you are barking at the wrong tree…  

  301. Boyajian:
     
    As I have stated before, I am an ethnic Kurd who considers himself a Turk. I may have kurdish blood in me but I was born into and grew up in Turkish culture (outside of Turkey). I know Turkey’s history is not clean by any means, but that will never change how I feel about my country. I will accept fault for my ancestors and apologize on their behalf, but I will not be ashamed of a crime of I did not commit. Anyone Turkish person who can admit those things I just said, I will call my brother. The crap Necati posts on here is just subhuman. Unfortunately, people like him represent my country. He is not Turkish, he is brainwashed, and has no place in any civilized society.

  302. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // December 6, 2011 at 6:16 am // Reply

    WANTED: OWNERS OF SIX TONS OF GOLD LEFT IN HISTORIC ARMENIA | AZG Daily
    Azg Armenian Daily NewsPaper

    Armenians will stay simple people
    Dedicated and poor
    Slaves for their honesty…
    I don’t know till when…

    Love to all

    Sylva 

  303. very well said Gayane: the preaching is always directed at us, Armenians.
    We are the ones – who have lost almost everything as a nation  – have to compromise, have to give more, have to be understanding, have to do this or that…..so that the feelings of Turks are not hurt.

    There is an overabundance of visceral hate, denial, and threats directed at Armenians by Turk posters @TZ and @HDN  every time there is Armenian related article.

    I have yet to see Karekin preach peace and brotherhood to Turks in their own backyard.
    Not once. 

  304. RVDV: 

    “I will accept fault for my ancestors and apologize on their behalf”.  Have you done so on these pages or to any Armenian you know?

    “but I will not be ashamed of a crime I did not commit.”  Will you be ashamed of a crime your grandfather has committed? Will you be ashamed of a crime your people have committed? Will you be ashamed of a crime your state have committed?

  305. Thanks RVDV for answering, but I am still not sure what makes you a ‘Turk’ and not Necati.  I think you mean to say that you believe that Necati doesn’t deserve to be called a Turk?   But isn’t this just a kind of denial?  Aren’t you both Turks?  Don’t the two of you simply represent different aspects of what a Turk is in this day and age?  Can you just disavow what might cause you to cringe in order to avoid coming to terms with the dark side of what Turkey still puts out into the world?   I understand the concept of ethnic pride and I accept that you feel such pride for what you consider your ethnic identity, but isn’t it more honest to acknowledge the full gamut of how this pride manifests itself?

    Thank you for also stating that you are willing to “accept fault for my ancestors and apologize on their behalf.”  This is the kind of dignity Armenians seek from Turkey.  

    The second part of that sentence “but I will not be ashamed of a crime of I did not commit” is more confusing to me.   If it was my ancestors and my government, I would be ashamed to be connected to these events and the cover-up.  I know that I felt shame when I heard reports of so-called Armenian gangs being involved in illegal activities in the US.   And although I understood the emotions that led to the murder of Turkish diplomats in the 70s, and was moved by the magnitude of such actions, I wasn’t proud of the violence done in my name.  I guess I still don’t fully understand your mindset, but I am grateful for your willingness to answer what may seem to be tedious questions.

  306. RVDV, you said:
    ‘Armenia is in a region where there are countries around it that do not like them.’
    We very well know two out of four of those countries which are Turkey & Aliyevistan.
    Now in the above phrase of yours let us replace Armenia with Turkey & Aliyevistan,don’t you think that it is much more accurate observation?Turkey has problems with all of its neighbors excluding Georgia & Aliyevistan similarly.

  307. Boyajian jan… well said my friend.. i second your comment…

    Avery jan- to this day i can’t figure Karekin out.. and maybe I will never figure him out… he is as confusing as Ragnar Naess… these two are just enigma for me… 

    VTiger- you said it well … it is not Armenia who has enemies all around.. Turkey has done a great job turning everyone around her HER enemies.. the ONLY REASON these countires tolerate TUrkey is because Turkey has the money and with that comes power.. otherwise Turkey would be one sorry country….  with sorry govt body…  

  308. Paul jan- EXCELLENT retort to John the Turk (or better suited Yahya the Turk)….

  309. RVDV… it does not matter where you were born..by blood you are a Kurd.. you just happen to be born in Turkey which makes you a Turkish citizen.. and not a Turk….you are still considered Kurd by blood….not sure why you would call yourself a Turk……..

  310. Karekin, I stand with all the comments made to you regarding your either inadvertent or intentional dilution of the Armenian demands for justice cloaked in the language of “let’s just try to get along”.  I especially appreciate Berch’s comment and believe he spelled out very well, the distinction between those who committed a crime and want to avoid justice, and those who seek justice for the crimes committed against them.  The two sides, Armenians and Turkey, are not equal parties to a dispute.  Place the two sides on the opposite sides of the scales of justice and the weight of guilt will cause the Turkish side to fall all the way down.  To balance the scales again, Turkey will need to face its responsibility to Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and others.  And it is our right and duty to demand this of Turkey; not as vengeance but for the sake of justice.

    As an Armenian Christian, I understand that in God’s creation, sin has a consequence, but there is always a chance for redemption for those who seek it.   I don’t know what the final chapter on the Armenian Cause will say, but I am sure that such heinous crimes should not, cannot, and will not go unpunished in the end.  I hope I live to see how this all plays out.

  311. Paul: You asked if I Have apologized so on these pages or to any Armenian you know? Well…. If I hadn’t apologized before, I just did. Also, I have previously stated that my great grandfather was hanged in 1917 by Turkish troops for trying to hide Armenians. I cannot be held responsible for what happened a hundred years ago so thats why I am not ashamed. I am sorry, I wish things had gone differently, but I will not be ashamed for what happened and for what Turkish/Kurdish people did. We can’t change the past, but we can change the future..
     
     

  312. Gayane….I have read and received more angry words here (mostly from you) than I have during any conversation about Armenians and genocide in Turkey, where I’ve never gotten anything close to a nasty comment or word from anyone. This insistence on throwing stones from a distance is a bit lame. You too can go to Turkey – they will actually let you in – and you can talk up a storm with anyone you want.  Khatchig M. has done it, as have many others. But, if you are smart, you will check your anger and endless defensiveness at the door before going in for a visit. They are both unhelpful, uncooperative and unproductive when it comes to resolving any issue, including this one.  I would just ask that you try your best to get that chip off of your shoulder and learn to live with people, including other Armenians who are not as endlessly angry as you are.  It has clearly become an obsession, and not in a good way, unfortunately. I for one, know many Armenians who are unimpressed and disillusioned with such anger, so have walked in other directions just to escape the negative mindset and atmosphere it creates. If your goal is to win hearts and minds, whether it is of Armenians, Turks or anyone else, I think a little tact and diplomacy, instead of endless slaps on the face, could get you far.  

     

  313. Here is a link to an interesting article about a professor at UC Davis who is refusing to back down in face of pressure from Turkish American groups claiming defamation:

    | Inside Higher Ed 

    (Yahya, Necati, etc., please take note) 

  314. Gayane: I know I did not explain it very well, I feel Turkish and so I consider myself one, but I am also proud of my Kurdish heritage- I just know very little of it.

  315. Karekin.. i am glad that you are as wrong about describing me as anything you said so far on our pages…. I don’t have a chip on my shoulder sir.. what I do have is annoyance by someone like you who sings the same tune over and over.. Please do refer to ONE comment directed to you that was nasty as you so naturally stated in your comment…please enlighten us.. don’t come in here and pretend you are angelic and holly.. you yourself said NASTIER words about your OWN people.. do we need to go there SIR? 

    You simply need to get it through your head.. your stand on how you view ARmenians are not appreciated and will never be.. so get off your dream horse and start thinking rationally..  Boyajian, Avery and Berch’ beautifully explained to you what and who we are as people vs what and who nationlist Turks are, go back and reread them….maybe then you will understand between annoyance and hatred (as you love to throw at us)…

    Have a nice day

    Gayane      

  316. Necati: So you want me to search IN TURKISH for information on KURDS in the TURKISH war of Independence? This is why there is not point is arguing with Turkish people.
     
    VTiger: I made that target to say that if foreign relations (wars and such) played a role in Armenia not seeking genocide recognition more heavily, that those problems wont go away. Azerbaijan and Turkey will never be best friends with Armenia, and I am assuming Armenians are not fond with Russia. True, Turkey isn’t popular in the region either, but what does Turkey’s popularity have anything to do with what I said about Armenia?

  317. Karekin,I’ve been following your posts for quite a while now & I try to see what your intentions are.I honestly do not understand your outbursts against your own.Yes it is very wise to sit & discuss with the opposite party as long as it has accepted its mistakes & apologised for it.As long as it has not done that don’t you see that it is pointless even to do that?To get justice you have 2 means;war or peaceful means.As long as I have the option of fighting & defending my rights in a peaceful way then I’ll do that.Nowadays it is not only with real weapons that you fight to defend your rights.This is called public opinion & I’ll use it to get justice.

  318. again, Karekin: why do you keep berating Armenian posters, such as Gayane, yet NEVER have you berated Turk poster @TZ and @HDN, who routinely and regularly spew virulent Anti-Armenian hate. Compared to what Turks write, Gayane’s posts are love-letters.

    If you have, post the link – let’s see it.

  319. RVDV,with respect I do not understand the point you’re trying to make foreign relations (wars & such)… You got me lost there & not because I’ve been having few sips of Armenian cognac.For Armenia & Armenians it is not only Genocide recognition but as well the recovery of lost ancestral lands because of Genocide & ethnic cleansing.As our beautiful Boyajian once said:4000 years old ancestral home emptied in 3 years’ timeline.Your assumption of Armenians not being fond of Russian is very doubtful.I’m very fond of the Russians for one.There’s a very nice saying in British English:A known devil is better than an unknown angel.

  320. Vtiger: that was in response to Paul saying “arduous nation-state building process with two of the four neighboring states posing a constant threat.”
    That was in response to me asking him why has Armenia is not making more of an effort to get genocide recognized after 20 years of independence. What I was trying to say is Armenia is going to have foreign relation problems as long as Azerbaijan and Turkey are its neighbors. That shouldnt be an excuse for not seeking genocide more heavily. I am under the assumption that the Armenian government can multi task.

  321. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // December 6, 2011 at 11:43 pm // Reply

    Very good article from Egypt…
    Most Egyptian Armenians are from Adana…
    Egyptians love Armenians…They trust them…

    مذابح أضنه أبريل 1909 و أثرها في مصر 
    http://www.azg.am/AR/2011120602
     

  322. I fully realize that holding up the mirror of reality can create tension, but sometimes it can be useful and therapeutic to see yourselves as others see you. Look, maybe I have not criticized Turkish posters here, but have you seen me praise any of the ultranationalist rhetoric? No. And, you won’t.  I don’t subscribe to what they say, but I also don’t believe in trying to shout them down w/ slogans, boasting or endless screeds about DNA. In that hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Armenians still live in Turkey and Turkey is a major neighbor of Armenia, I tend to think it is in our interests to work on dialogue. We cannot change them, so we must change ourselves and adapt, or risk losing what we have. Every change within Turkey happens internally, not because of what you say or do. You are not that important, trust me. Talking big does not make you big, or strong or powerful, because talk is cheap.  And, if we were, in fact, powerful, we would not be in this situation to begin with.  

  323. Karekin: you should be a politician, I’d vote for you lol :)

  324. Karekin,I absolutely do not agree with your logic & specially with the one ‘We cannot change them, so we must change ourselves and adapt, or risk losing what we have’.
    Process of change is happening in Turkey because of its foundations are based on lies & crime.See Dersim?And next is the Genocide.

  325. So necati denies the Armenian Genocide but then states, “Tarih tekerrürden ibarettir. .. History repeats itself.” This pretty much sums up the mentality of most in Turkey—we didn’t do it, but we’ll do it again if you make us angry. Interesting.
    True, and sadly typical.  I knew an Israeli who once told me that when questions of genocide recognition come up, they used to get contradictory statements.  Like, Turkey is a haven historically for Jews — but then the Jewish community in Istanbul says, “If you recognize the genocide, do you know what they will do to us???”  Yeah… Interesting and typical.  The problem is the national image — there is a kind of grandeur in brutality, an excitement.  There is no getting away from the mentality.  An excitement in rage.  And anyone who calls themselves a Christian and is blind to this is not  a Christian at all.
     

  326. Probably yes, RVDV:  The individual posting under the name ‘Karekin’ may become a second-class politician, but I strongly doubt that with such a self-deprecating mentality he’ll ever become a national leader. Of course, Turks would vote for such a politician as Karekin; after his mindset may serve Turkey’s interests. But ,sorry to disappoint you, the reality is harsher and the prevailing majority of Armenians don’t think like Karekin, if he’s an Armenian at all.  Re: what should and what shouldn’t be an excuse for not seeking genocide legally and ‘more heavily’, it’s an easily-detectible, and essentially primitive, Turkish trap that we, as Armenians, will hardly fall into. Legal actions will be sought when the time is right and when the circumstances are favorable. Thanks for the advice, but Armenians have abundant intellectual potential to know when to sue Turkey for genocide.

  327. Sad, indeed, Jerry –
     
    “A kind of grandeur in brutality”.  Unfortunately, little has changed in Turks’ mentality since terrorizing nomadic Seljuk warriors invaded our region and since colonizing imperial Ottomans ceased to exist.

  328. Karekin:  Do you consider yourself a sane person? What kind of obsequious statement is this: ‘We cannot change them [Turks], so we must change ourselves and adapt, or risk losing what we have’?  But, dear sir, during the Ottoman centuries Armenians did adapt. Had they not lost all they had in the hands of the Turks?

  329. avatar John the turk // December 7, 2011 at 12:45 pm // Reply

    Boyajian

    I think ATAA is doing a good job. It may not be easy to call the Turkish Institutions as unreliable. I will definitely make a donation to them. Moreover, Nobody could answer my question regarding why Armenians hasn’t made an application to ICJ. Paul was the only person who pretended to answer however, they were all lies.. For this reason, My son told me last year that his school was going to introduce genocides including the Armenian once. I immediately contacted the school management and had a short discussion regarding the removal of  Armenian Genocide . The next day they called me that the subject of the Armenian genocide was removed from the list. So if you want to seek your justice first thing you must do is to make an application to ICJ. The rest is empty talking . Until you do this I will fight for Justice

  330. Another classic from Karekin-bey : construct a false strawman, ascribe it to Armenians, and then proceed to attack the premise.
     
     
     We cannot change them, so we must change ourselves and adapt, or risk losing what we have’
    Of course, it’s always Armenians  that have to adapt to the desires of the Turks, Armenians have to change to accommodate the Turks, Armenians have to give up this or that so as not to anger Turks. After all, Armenians are the ones who are guilty: Turks are the innocent victims.
     
     
    ‘DNA’
    Armenian posters did not bring up the DNA: Turk and AzeriTurk posters did. Why didn’t you berate them when they brought it up.
    Why are you  by inference falsely ascribing its introduction to Armenian posters ?
     
     
     Look, maybe I have not criticized Turkish posters here,’
    AGAIN {again, Karekin: why do you keep berating Armenian posters, such as Gayane, yet NEVER have you berated Turk poster @TZ and @HDN, who routinely and regularly spew virulent Anti-Armenian hate}

  331. Sylva-MD-Poetry:  I venture to guess not many readers of ArmenianWeekly can read and understand Arabic. Can you please  summarize what the articles say. Important dates, numbers, facts, etc. 

  332. Well, let’s look at this discussion from a slightly different angle. Let’s say you have a hammer, a nail and a piece of wood. You can bang that nail into the wood all you want…and, if you bang too much or with too much force, you will damage the wood badly.  This is not a skill or a craft, or anything intelligent….it is just blunt force.  No skill required.  Unfortunately, this repetitive action has not created anything from that piece of wood – not a table, a chair or a house. It is something that just about anyone can do, even a blind person.  Yet, if approached correctly and with skill and/or finesse, even without a nail or a hammer, someone can create something magnificent, long lasting and beautiful from that same piece of wood. It requires no nails or hammers and no blunt force – I know because I’ve done it and seen the (much better) creations of others done the same way.  I do hope those reading this can extrapolate the meaning I am trying to convey here and open up a new branch of discussion and thinking on the subject. 

     

  333. RVDV.. i would not vote for Karekin.. that is for sure

    My original post to Karekin did not make it so I will try again…

    Karekin- you are absolutely utterly incapable of understanding what you are saying.. you write for the sake of writing.. do you even read what you right?? you are making me very very upset withyour negativity toward your own people.. your words are like swords that cuts through very deep… you must be very proud of your thought process.. keep singing your old tune and keep putting down your own people… I wish I can tell you to keep your mouth shot but I would come off rude and nasty.. won’t I Karekin????  I would recommend you to get off your dream horse sir and start realizing that you are making very unhappy people on these pages with your nonsense….      

  334. You get everything as the way you want it to be. Don’t you?
     I said: history  repeats itself. Yes.
    Let me tell you how:
    Here is  a list of colonists poor  Turkish Nation fought against  during Great Turkish Independence War: Dont forget, they attacked at the same time, all together, with their all power.
    United Kingdom
    France
    Italy
    Russia
    Australia….!
    New Zealand…!
    Armenians
    Greece
    India
    Kurdish Rebels

    Can you imagine that how terrible conditions  The new Turkish Republic were under?

    During endless wars, subsistence for Turkish soldiers  consisted of , most of times , only a piece of stale bread a day.  If add stewed fruit , it used to be considered  as festival.

    These colonist thought it was perfect time  to invade, break up and  eat up “the sick man”.
    But they forgot the warrior soul of us.
    And finally they got their lesson and  run away with their tail between  legs.

    Now I say:
    Anyone who  dares same stupidity  will be unhappy.

    YES,  History will repeat.

    Necati Genis

  335. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 7, 2011 at 3:50 pm // Reply

    “Tarih tekerrürden ibarettir”

    The Three words are all real Arabic 
    Tarih=Taikh means History
    Tekerrurden= Tekrar is Arabic 
    Ibarettir= Is it it self or
    ebra= a lesson in Arabic
    So this is not Turkish this is Arabic…using conjunctions to look Turkish

    Thanks Jerry for sending…
    What other proverb you have…I know little Turkish but very good Arabic, better than Armenian…

    In Arabic we say, ” Altarikh yoeedu Or Yukarir nafsaho” As you said 
    “The history repeats it self”
    Even the Proverb is Arabic as Arabs existed before Turks

    Sylva

     

  336.  Necati:
    Russia did not exist during the Turkish War of Independence. The SOVIET UNION was the NUMBER ONE supporter of Turkish independence. NUMBER ONE- where do you think the Young Turks got their weapons and money from? Why was the Soviet Union the FIRST country to recognize Turkish independence? Not because they liked us, because they HATED England and France. Your out due yourself with every post. Where do you get your information, a MHP meeting?

  337. Necati.. do you EVER make sense??  Your posts make no sense.. thanks for the list but i honestly don’t care who fought the TUrkey… we are not discussing who did what to Turkey.. THE LIST SHOULD NOT be used as an excuse forwhat your barbaric forefathers did to my people… gather up a list ofhow you will apologize for your forefathers as well as for your own soul that may never be saved and will go to hell (this is derived from how you belittle and flat out disrespected my friends and my ancestors)….so if i were you, i would crawl into a hole and never come out…thank you and have a nice day..

  338. Correction, Soviets was the second (technically), after Armenia recognized Turkey after the Treaty of Alexandropol, but that does not count, as Paul will agree, that Treaty was after Armenia legally did  not exist, so the Soviets were the first.

  339. Karekin- if you are that successful of turning tables with the Turks (which you hav not done ONE thing and we have not seen ONE shred of evidence from you), why have we not seen you debate or have a discussion as you love to refer to it with any of the nationalist denialists on our pages.. we have not heard you DIRECT your comments to SPECIFIC individual? WHY?  are you afraid to to do so? please don’t give me that BS of “I rather not respond to such denialists”… please do share with us…. this is simply my own observation but I feel you possess  passive aggressive approach behaviors…

  340. Necati Genis:  Stop disseminating sheer idiocy. The ‘poor’ Turkish nation entered the World War I against the Allies on her own will and that’s why the Allies reiterated attacks against Turkey during your so-called ‘war of independence’. Stop playing innocent ostrich.  As for Armenia, by May 1919 and up until July 1923 when the ‘war of independence’ ended, Turks have already savagely butchered the population of Western Armenian provinces. The remaining Eastern Armenia (Democratic Republic of Armenia) had to fight Turks who continued to attack with the goal of total extermination of Armenians. Whatever terrible conditions the new Turkish Republic was under, they were incomparable to the near-total extinction of a nation, the loss of two thirds of historical Armenian lands, and tens of thousands of emasculated Armenian escapees from Turkish massacres flooding Eastern Armenia in those years. They have witnessed the ‘warrior soul’ of the Turks when hordes of Turkish men were mass murdering, mutilating, and raping defenseless Armenian women and children, and slitting pregnant women’s bellies. One incredible ‘warrior soul’, indeed! I don’t know if history automatically repeats itself, but I do know that God’s wrath sooner or later descends on sinners.

  341. I agree !!!  with RVDV  at his last post. RA is the first one recognizing the new Turkish Republic.

    To NECATI  :

    Yes , if we take 1919 as the begining of Turkish independence war ,you are right. If we go 2-3 years back, i am right. dont you think so?

    I am not a supporter of MHP ,AKP or CHP.

    BTW: Your name is Necati , so is mine. No good…

    How about calling you Mustafa Necati from now?

  342. Another distortion by Necati Genis:  “Russia did not exist during the Turkish War of Independence.” What? The Soviet Union was established only in 1922, whereas the Turkish war of Independence lasted from May 1919 until July 1923. It means before 1922 and after the 1917 Russian Revolution, there was Russia: a Bolshevik Russia that attempted to prevent expansion of the British to the oil reserves of Baku. But it also bought Kemal’s chameleon slyness who, as a revolutionary, declared himself a Bolshevik sympathizer. Moscow supplied tons of gold and ammunition to the illegitimate Kemalist forces who used them, in part, to fight the Armenians and Georgians in the Caucasus to weaken them and clear the way for the Russian 11th Army to enter the Caucasus in 1920 and Sovietize the region.

  343. Great post using the hammer and nail  metaphor, Karekin.
    Very deep. The Armenian  children who read AW greatly appreciate you explaining complicated concepts – like 2nd order Differential Equations – in terms their underdeveloped brains can grasp: everyday items such as nails, hammers, chairs, tables, houses.
     
    Really, really deep. Wait a moment, let me go get my long boots………….OK I am back.
    I’ve got one too: “Don’t beat a dead horse”.

  344. avatar Random Armenian // December 7, 2011 at 5:52 pm // Reply

    John the turk,

    Where does it say that a historical crime needs to be judged as such in the ICJ before it’s included in the history books. Historians and academics are free to come to the consensus that a historical event was a crime or genocide. You go to the ICJ for a legal outcome and justice under the law. Otherwise your prerequisite for court time at the ICJ is red herring. Academic research into the Armenian Genocide is not empty talk.

    And under which law should Armenians go to the ICJ?

    And which school is it that you mentioned? Just asking ;-)

    necati,

    You’re asking us about terrible conditions after the genocide? Not only was Armenia in a terrible condition, there were over a million Armenians no longer in existence to experience those terrible conditions. 

  345. Necati— you said

    These colonist thought it was perfect time  to invade, break up and  eat up “the sick man”.
    But they forgot the warrior soul of us.
    And finally they got their lesson and  run away with their tail between  legs.
    Now I say:
    Anyone who  dares same stupidity  will be unhappy.

    First of all.. your ancestors can hardly EVER be called as worriers… those tribes that attack without warning the opposite side are not warriors, they are cowards….

    In addition, are you telling us the blood of your barbaric coward ancestors continue to run in the veins your generation and if necessary you will carry out another Genocide???  is that what you are saying????  

  346. John the TUrk- Are you pretending to be a Christian??… because to hide behind a Christian name is a lie.. don’t you think?

    So before you call my friend Paul a liar, i would look in the mirror and realize you represent the ugly, the mean, and the ruthless… if you stopped the truth from being shared and learned, these three does not even come close to what you represent…

    Paul did not pretend to answer your lame questions.. Paul answered them very well and then some… maybe you are in denial that your pitty responses have no bearing nor any solid ground and in order to make you feel big, you have to call others liars and use a name that does not belong to you… you don’t deserve the name John…. that is all I can say…

    Gayane       

  347. Paul: I was the one who said Russia did not exist the. Eh, close enough, small details aren’t all that important (you’re right of course) because it was the same ideology used by Bolshevik Russia and Russian dominated Soviet Union. Point is, the Turks did not fight the Soviets/Russians, which was a COMPLETE lie by Necati, I mean like a there-are-weapons-of-mass-destruction-in-Iraq kind of lie.

  348. My bad everyone, I made a post under the name Necati by accident. I was responding TO Necati, which is why the mix up happened. Again, my bad.

  349. Karekin:
     
    I know types like you too well. You try to separate yourself from others by seeming cool and moderate. In reality, you are a coward. You are too scared to condemn the calls for genocide that happen on these pages by Turks, yet you are quick to criticize Armenians who have the courage to do what you do not.
     
    I used to be like you. I thought I was the intellectual Armenian who went to private school and had “moved on,” while all the other Armenians in my city were not integrated, went to all day Armenian schools, barely spoke English or French, and were “stuck in the past.” I looked down on them when they’d say the most mundane and truthful things, like Turkey’s denial of genocide amounts to nothing more than a continuation. Do you deny this fact? Do you think Israel should establish “dialogue” with Iran?
     
    Those Armenians were smarter than I was. And you try to talk in flowery language and arcane metaphors, but we are all smarter than you. Because those who talk with unwavering deference to the truth are never wrong. But those who get themselves off on unearned self-martyrdom, who try so desperately to set themselves apart from the rest, end up being the ones with the most ephemeral of legacies. You are not unique. The Armenian Genocide will never be forgotten. But you will.

  350. Paul,great that you saved me replying to necati as he has done a ‘chorba’ of history.

  351. Gayane, the level of anger and vituperous verbiage you spew here is really unbecoming. Let me suggest a serious round of therapy and anger management classes. If you think this or any other forum is just a soapbox for your own, personal diatribes or to inculcate others to adopt your personal combative style, then please think again.  It is often said, there are many ways to skin a cat. You seem to have latched onto only one, unfortunately. 

    I was very clear in saying that I have not uttered one word of support for either Turkish nationalists, denialists or anyone else who challenges the genocide. Their words stand on their own. I personally don’t believe that shouting the word ‘genocide’ at them over and over again is a useful approach.   So, it seems that this is clearly much more about what YOU want, not about having an open discussion. It is about you stating and restating and stating again, something we all know. This is an Armenian forum, where unfortunately such screeds are tolerated. Perhaps you would be more effective by taking your circus act to the Turkish media, because preaching to the choir with a gun and a chair, in their own church, is not the kind of forum that is helpful. 

    It is very clear that you’ve drawn a line in the sand, and threaten anyone who dares to cross it in thought, word or deed.  If the goal truly is for Armenians to bring the Turkish nation to their side and to understand their plight, their recent history and their wants and desires, it must be done in a sane, cooperative manner, without resorting to insults. Although I disagree w/ Necati’s rendition of history, I would not resort to using the language you did (‘your barbaric forefathers’) in your attempt to silence him. That’s how a Turkish nationalist sees the world and their history, and unfortunately, they cannot see what others see very clearly…that Turkey was on the wrong side of history at that point in time. I don’t feel sorry for Turkey at all…they not only invited, but created alot of misery by engaging in war with other countries and with their own population. As a strategy, it worked for them, but no one is ever going to say it was an enlightened approach to nation building. It was brutal and horrific. It was about a sick man gone beserk. But, when an empire implodes and revolutions take root, alot of bad things can happen..and they did.  We know that well. So, the real question is, once again, is how to move forward?  How to get the best out of our current situation?  I suggest that revenge and vengeance are not the way to go, if we are to ever rise above the muck of history and survive as a people.

         

       

  352. Karekin: You are right.  There’s a reason the Armenian Genocide hasn’t been recognized by Turkey yet. It’s because neither side is willing to budge an inch from their stance, YES Armenians, YOU are also part of the problem. It has been nearly 100 years, and Turkey has not recognized genocide, don’t you think maybe you Armenia should try a different approach, that’s not to say a compromise but a different approach? Because as things are, Turkey will recognize the Armenian genocide if it wants to. Yes, Armenians are on the moral high ground, and in a perfect world shouldn’t world have to budge from their stance. However, it is not a perfect world- and unless you have a means of forcing Turkey to meet your demands, Armenians talking big is not going to get anything done, but perhaps feed their egos. Taking the genocide issue to courts or the UN will not solve anything. Only sitting at the table with Turkey will solve problems, and with your “your ancestors are cowards” mentality, there may not be much progress. Also, you have to understand that a many Turkish people are like Necati, they truly believe Turkey has done nothing that warrants an apology. 
     
    One of the earlier posts I read said “Armenians don’t hate Turks,” we hate hypocrisy and bigotry, not Turks- something along those lines. The last few posts I’ve seen,  the same people have been calling Necati’s ancestor Turks, cowards and barbarians. Don’t insult my intelligence by saying you don’t hate Turks, you clearly resent them. You think you’re so clever by bringing up things like DNA, I’ve seen all that from Greeks. Attempts to make Turks seem like less-worthy humans because of their central Asian roots. Get over yourselves.

  353. ‘This is an Armenian forum, where unfortunately such screeds are tolerated.’
    The same can be said about you, Karekin-bey: it is magnanimous of AW to tolerate and give a platform to Turcophile propagandists who post under traditional Armenian names.

    As to Gayane: far more (patriotic) Armenian posters agree with her positions and advocacy than you here @AW. Her in-your-face  passion may be disturbing to your delicate Turcophile sensibilities. But at this time in our history, we need a lot more passion like hers for the security and survival of Armenia and Artsakh. It was passionate people like Gayane who dropped everything and rushed to help their Armenian brothers and sisters who were facing another round of extermination at the hands of your Turkic buddies.

    People like you were still preaching “brotherhood, forgive and forget, let’s move on…”, while Artsakhtsi Armenians were fighting for their lives. 
    We need more ‘Gayanes’ and fewer ‘Karekins’. 

  354. Not only did Karekin not respond to my post, but he confirmed it with his latest string of euphemisms while trying to sound high and mighty:

    “Although I disagree w/ Necati’s rendition of history,….” Karekin, please try to absorb what I say. This is not a case of competing narratives. There are not two subjective “renditions of history” going on here. There is truth. And there is a lie. Which side are you on?

    “That’s how a Turkish nationalist sees the world and their history,” There is no “our history” and “their history” there. That kind of attitude gives rise to covers like ‘Oh, Armenians were going through tough times, but they did not understand what we were going through in “our history.”‘ There is one history. Taner Akcam said it best http://armenianweekly.com/2010/05/19/akcam-davutoglu/

    “Turkey was on the wrong side of history at that point in time.” No, Turkey did not ‘find itself’ on the wrong side of history. It placed itself on the wrong side of history by intentionally deciding to commit genocide. And enough with this failed poetic garbage. Instead of saying Turkey was on this or that side, why don’t you unequivocally say what it did. What did it do, Karekin?

     “a sick man gone berserk.” No, Turkey cannot plead insanity. It had full control of its faculties during the planning, executing and denial of the genocide. All throughout this process it had the rational ability to call of what it was doing. It didn’t. It is guilty.

    ” But, when an empire implodes and revolutions take root, alot of bad things can happen..and they did.” Are you kidding me? This is word for word out of the denialist-Davutoglu playbook.
    What revolutions? Armenians’?? You’re suggesting Armenians are responsible for their fate by creating the ground for ‘revolutions’?? You and I both know that Armenians were sacrificing their lives for the Ottoman Empire that was planning to exterminate them. See General Andranik, Krikor Zohrab, etc.

    And yes, a lot of bad things can happen–especially when a government decides to commit a genocide. This genocide was not the ‘by-product’ of war. If you believe that, then you’re no better than a denialist.

    Karekin, I live in Turkey. I pay taxes here. I consider myself a better Turkish citizen and a much better Armenian than you could ever hope to be. 

  355. RVDV

    Thank you for participating in this discussion. I have one question though. You say:

    “Taking the genocide issue to courts or the UN will not solve anything. Only sitting at the table with Turkey will solve problems,” 

    Excuse me, but in Turkey or wherever you live, when a crime happens, doesn’t the victim go to court or law enforcement officials to get restitution? Or is it in fact the case that the victim will approach the murderer, invite him for tea, try to reason with him and convince him to see the error of his ways?

    I would really like to see, in a hypothetical world of course, what you would do if somebody God forbid tried to kill a member of your family. Something tells me you would go to court rather than try to psychologically counsel the murderer. 

  356. RVDV —
     
     — The DNA issue was brought by a Turkish poster. Our responses were offered onl;y to confrn the historical fact that Turks were not the indigenous inhabitants of Asia Minor and similarities that some of the Turks now have with the indigenous peoples are the result of your ancestors — Seljuks and Mongols’ intermingling, intermarriages, abductions to harems, mass rapes, impregnations, forced Devshirme conversions, and forced religious conversions of the native populations.  Are Turks indigenous to the region RVDV? I’d be interested to know what your school books tell you about the origins of the Turks nation.
     
    — I do believe that your Ottoman and Ittihadist ancestors were nothing but barbarians. A superficial familiarization with the methods they used to mass murder and humiliate the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians cannot convince anyone in the opposite.
     
    — I don’t hate individual modern-day Turks. I say this with my hand on my heart. I do hate, however, your barbarian Ottoman and Ittihadist ancestors who burnt most of the members of my grandmothers’ family in a church. I do resent your unrepentant and unremorseful state. And I do resent those modern-day Turks who knowingly deny the internationally-recognized fact of the Armenian genocide.

  357. RVDV, it is wrong and overly simplistic to say that Armenians have had one hundred years to seek justice and have failed, therefore they are going about it in an incorrect manner.   First of all, the devastation to the population by the genocide and the refugee and orphan/diaspora status of the remaining Ottoman Armenians, left most Armenians struggling for daily survival, psychological healing and feeling disenfranchised from homeland and each other. Families were destroyed.  Fortunes lost. The fabric of a highly organized community ripped to shreds and their political and religious leaders murdered. In addition, the collapse of the Armenian Republic and its coerced sovietization tied the hands of Armenians in the Caucasus.  Can you deny that the foundational structures and political tools of the Armenian community were mortally wounded by these events?  

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt and forgive your naivete on these matters.  It took several decades of healing and rebuilding of diasporan communities in adopted lands around the world before Armenians began to make organized efforts to first, declare their truth, and second, to pursue justice.  Meanwhile, in the decades between the genocide and the renaissance of Armenian political and justice action, Turkey was free to destroy any documents, create false history, and misinform its population, not to mention forge alliances with the West that influenced geopolitics against genocide recognition.  You need to broaden your understanding of the history of the Armenian community since the genocide.

    In any case, I have always advocated a multi-pronged approach to resolving the issues between Turks and Armenians.  Dialogue, diplomacy, education, public relations, conflict resolution, genocide recognition, Turkish apology and compensation to the Armenians, followed by open borders, open trade, and a commitment to peaceful relations are all needed.

    With all due respect, I hope you take some time to educate yourself on the impact of genocide on a people before you put yourself in a position to judge others actions or inactions.  It is precisely because genocide is so thoroughly and heinously devastating that it is recognized as a crime against humanity and universally condemned. 

    I appreciate your efforts toward a just resolution. 

  358. RVDV:  You bring Armenians as part of the reason why Turkey hasn’t recognized the genocide. You say ‘neither side is willing to budge an inch from their stance’. You repeat the same mistake Karekin makes. Turks and Armenians were not, repeat: were not, sides. Using of the term would be relevant if Turks and Armenians were belligerents or civil strife antagonists. They were not. Turks were the mass murderers; Armenians were the victims. Period.
     
    About a different approach, which you see as ‘sitting at the table with Turkey’. It might have been an alternative in the years or decades following the genocide. But as of now, when more than twenty-five foreign governments, local governments, the European Parliament, the ICTJ, international organizations, professional associations, human rights groups, and scores of genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, and Nobel Prize laureates have already acknowledged the Turkish crime, I’m afraid you’re trying to catch the train that’s long gone with your  suggestion. At this point in time, it’s not up to Turkey alone to recognize thegenocide ‘if it wants to’. You conveniently forget that genocide is a crime against humanity, therefore, when all the major players will recognize the crime (some of them already did), then it’s unimportant if Turkey wants to recognize. Turkey will be bound to comply.
     
    You claim that ‘Armenians talking big is not going to get anything done’. You’re wrong. Our struggle for justice has already gotten many things done.
     
    P.S.  Armed men savagely butchering unarmed, helpless women, children, and the elders, in the civilized world are considered cowards.

  359. For what it is worth: from RVDV’s latest post [Dec. 8] it is clear that he and Karekin are the same person. That kind of dishonesty causes as much turmoil in the discussion as the “sandbox” — I would even day “gang rumble” — style that he so seems to despise. This is a good reason to place the focus on the substance of what people say here rather than on who or what we think they are. Too much focus on SUPPOSED “identity” is a serious distraction and too many forumers are falling for it. It would be great if intelligent Armenians and Turks could use this forum as a civilized meeting ground for bringing the day of Turkey’s acknowldedgment of its role in the Armenian Genocide closer rather than filling the air with dust and driving reasonable and HONEST
    voices away. 

  360. Avery, you have no idea how much help I’ve given to worthy, needy and desperate Armenians long the way, so please save the preaching for elsewhere. I’ve done and continue to do my share, but that doesn’t mean I want to endorse or subscribe to fanaticism, on any side of this debate. There is nothing wrong with passion or deep emotion, but when it bubbles over into craziness and angry vitriole, then we all have a problem. Resolving issues cannot be done on a one-way street or in a room where everyone thinks the same way…that’s called groupthink, and it’s very dangerous when no one will speak out or take a different stand on an issue. It doesn’t solve problems, it only creates them.  The only reason George Bush was able to engage in a useless, expensive war that killed hundreds of thousands is because few in government were willing to stand up and challenge him and his band of merry men.  As a result, every American is poorer. It is not unlike what the CUP did to the Ottoman Empire, which eventually destroyed it. 

  361. Correction to my previous post. 3rd line (between dashes) should read: I would even say “gang rumble”. Thanks. 

  362. Karekin:  You state that “…it’s very dangerous when no one will speak out or take a different stand on an issue [of recognition]”.  How, in your view, should Israelites deal with the Iranian leadership who deny Jewish Holocaust? Do you think they should resolve the issue by means of groupthink?  Or maybe there are undeniable crimes that statesmen and their nations must have the courage to recognize?

  363. VTiger- i laughed soo hard when I read your “Chorba” history comment to Necati.. It was hilliarious because that was something I would have said..lol thank you for the laugh..

    Patriot- thank you for the post.. I am glad that you shared your story and explained the true colors of Karekin to him.. at least you were there and you understand first hand… but i am more glad that you came out of that state.. thank you again for the post..   

  364. Karekin- are not you the sweetest thing .. calling me names such as crazy, lunetic, fanatic, angry virtiole… How dare you!!!

     I am just sickened by your stance and will not change my opinion of that.. your position of “know it all” and ‘”I can’t handle the fact that I am closet Turcophile” mentality is absolutely disturbing.. It is absolutely sad to know we have an Armenian son who does not know the difference between simply kissing TUrkey’ you know what and having a strong stance but at the same time unwilling to allow ourselves to be pushed around and taken as idiots by TUrkish govt and nationalists… it is absolutely sad…  your help to Armenians as you mentioned above means zero if you continue with how you view your people… I am ashamed of you and here is where I want to apologize before hand because I truly do want you to shut up and not share your convoluted, dillusional comments but I know that won’t happen.. …. i am just surprised that Turkey has not give you a medal of honor for working against your people and helpig the TUrkish Nationalists forward.. Turkey must love you… 

    I am so glad we don’t have too many of you out there…  but again.. I don’t hate you.. let me know repeat.. I DO NOT HATE YOU KAREKIN… just because we voice my anger/annoyance/frustration it does not mean WE HATE ANYONE that do not think like us or Turks in general.. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?????? .. did you hear that too RVDV???

    Side Note:  Can we stop the whining about the fact we use words like “barbaric ancestors/forfathers”  ..i don’t understand why the Turkish  nationalists and Turcophiles  love to use this and whine… This is a fact ladies and gentlemen… no buts, ors, ands, ……such words are used to reference history and a fact.. NOT TO INSULT…. lets get that through our heads KAREKIN AND RVDV….

    Have a nice day

    Gayane  

    RVDV   

  365. Boyajian:   “Dialogue, diplomacy, education, public relations, conflict resolution, genocide recognition, Turkish apology and compensation to the Armenians, followed by open borders, open trade, and a commitment to peaceful relations are all needed.”
     
    Couldn’t agree more. Well said. I have been doing a lot of research on the Armenian genocide, and as a result I grow increasingly angry at my government for trying to deny it. The point I was trying to make is with Nationalist Turks and Nationalist Armenians, a solution won’t be found. If a middle ground is found- there WILL be results.

  366. Avery jan- zgatsvats em qo xosqeri hamar.. shnorhakalutyun… yes chem haskanum te inchu Karekina chi haskanum te menq iskapes inchits enq jxaynanum.. ehhh.. huysov em orerits mi or…

    Boyajian jan- beautifully written post to RVDV.. well said..  

  367. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 8, 2011 at 7:35 pm // Reply

    Tpo those  who do NOT STAND THEIR GROUND!!!
    Today  L´Assamblee  Nationale(lower Chamber,parliament) of  (La) France has by majority vote passed Bill Criminalizing  denial of the Armenian Genocide,penalizing any who do so with a 45000 Euro and ….One  Year  imprisonment!!!
    Hopefully this will teach a lesson to those(not only fascist  Turks(good ones excepted) that our train is  on its way and our Cause/Case  on correct  path. We  muse persevere untill  Justice  is done.Culpable punished adequately ,made to pay BLOOD  MONEY and return  of real estate…
    We are  an overpatient people and we shall thus by and by gain recognition  from many other countries(who will hopefully  follow  suit).
    There comes a time  when lying and cover upping will no  more prevail!!
    Armenia´s pres. today in Marseille   as rep. of  his Republican party(member  as  of today of the biggest  political party  of  EU(centre right) Popular  parties, also delivered a discourse  in which he very bravely condemned the R.of Turkey and prompted  her to recognize the Genocide   their previous Govt.s  perpetrated  on Armenians.Adding  that  Armenia  has adhered  to the (so called, my putting  it  in brackets)protocols and waited and done all our part, now it is  R.of Turkey´s  turn…
    Marseill is a city  of with a  ten percent  Armenians and over a  100,000 strong.
    They are fiercely  Armenians.the young  ,some who don´t  speak Armenian also SO!!
    Been  there  many a times and know what  I´m talking about.   

  368. RVDV,Boyajian has answered & explained magnificently as usual.I need to add few points as well.
    -We did not have a republic for hundreds of years & even with the disaster of Genocide we were able to create one.This is an achievement that the Kurds could not achieve even with their superior numbers.
    -In the 2nd world war, 300,000 of our youth were killed fighting the Germans.
    -Thousands of us were exiled to Siberia & perished… by Stalin & Peria.
    -We had the devastating earthquake & even with this disaster we were able to free ourselves from the Soviets & have independence.
    -We went to war & freed Artsakh/Karabagh & this is just after the earthquake when we did not have gas,electricity,food & enough weaponry.
    -We kept alive the Genocide, loss of homeland & retribution issues alive on the international level & succeeded.So many countries,states… have recognised the Armenian Genocide committed by the Turks.This was done mainly by the 2nd generation of the Genocide survivors in the Diaspora.
    -We have such a strong Diaspora all around the world with members in highest echelons of social structures & institutions.We have a super educated class.
    -Compared to Jews,I personally consider that we have achieved far more, as they had to wait for 2000 years to create a nation/country.
    -We have a country next to our lost lands.We are rebuilding,strenghtening against all odds be it embargoes & all other difficulties together with the lack of natural resources.
    -We have the higher moral ground & we are not falsifying history,which Turks are unseccessfuly trying to falsify & misguide their own for the last 90 years.They cannot cheat & misguide the world with thousands of proofs & archives against them.By fascism & use of force they’ve cheated their own to their dismay,as truth always comes out.Eventually every nation has to face its own past as it is happening now with Dersim.Soon it will be the time to face their past with 1915 massacres.Already many articles are being written in the Turkish media.
    -I definitely do not need to change.Turks have to change & face the truth.

  369. RVDV,There are nationalist Turks but no nationalist Armenians.There are Armenian PATRIOTS.Can you define what a nationalist is?I believe it was the French PM Clemenceau who said:A NATIONALIST IS THE ONE WHO LOVES HIS OWN BUT HATES THE ALL OTHERS.
    The above does not apply to Armenians.If our struggle for the Genocide recognition,apology,retribution,compensation is nationalism,then all Armenians are not nationalists but SUPER nationalists.
    The term of Armenian nationalists is created by Turkey & as usual to misguide.

  370. RVDV:  Nationalist Turks are, I suppose, those who, among other issues, deny the Turkish genocidal extermination of Armenians.  Who are ‘Nationalist Armenians’??

  371. hahahaha. “Nationalist Armenians.” What a cowardly thing to say. Lazy conflation, lazy false equivalency.

    You lost my respect for that one, RVDV.

  372. I think the word “nationalist” has gotten a negative connontation. To me, the word Patriot means the same thing as nationalist. There is nothing wrong with nationalism. However, the word nationalism now means “racist patriot.” Many definition of the word nationalism actually say “patriot/loyal to ones nation” followed by “extreme patriotism.” I think it depends on how you look at it. I consider myself to be a Turkish nationalist, but I don’t think Turkey is the greatest country on Earth. I don’t think I am superior to any Armenian or any human being in this planet. I don’t even think Turkey is that great at all, if I did I would still live there. And if I did still live in Turkey, this website would probably be blocked by the ULTRAnationalist government. If what I just stated doesn’t qualify me as a nationalist to you, then I am a Turkish patriot, whatever, I didn’t think the difference between Nationalist and Patriot would be such a big deal- sorry if I offended you  Paul and VTiger. Ultranationalism is bad, nationalism is not. It is nationalism that creates the national identity. And to an extent there is nothing wrong to thinking your country is better than others. Using that ideology to attack and oppress others, because “only your people are worthy,” is of course wrong- but to me that is ultranationalism not nationalism.
     
    Paul: My definition of nationalism goes for Armenian nationalists as well. Again, to me patriot and nationalist are pretty much the same thing, and if you think nationalist means racist patriot, then so be it, I respect your opinion. I won’t make the mistake of calling Armenians nationalists again, I promise! :)

  373. Berch:
    I understand, and respect your feeling towards the Ottoman Empire and modern day Turks. Let me say this one more time though, I also had family members murdered and exiled for trying to help Armenians during the genocide, so to an extent, I understand your anger, frustration, and pain. Also, I have also stated that I am an ethnic Kurd. I know all to well to Turkish brutality, I would agree that the Turkish army were cowards during the genocide, but the Ottoman Empire’s history goes back to 1299. Don’t pass judgement on “my ancestors” because of the genocide. Although Armenians, and Christians in general, were second class citizens in the Ottoman Empire, there were long stretches to time where Turks, Armenians, and Greeks could live together, maybe not as best friends, but with mutual respect.
    Turkish mythology states the origin of the Turkish people in the Altay mountains in central asia, I know we are not native to Asia minor, anyone who claims that is an idiot.
     
    Patriot and Paul: I tried to think of a response to your comments, and, I’m gonna be honest, I got nothing. Your post in particular, Patriot was really good. You’re right, I would go to court. But, then again, a court can pass all the rulings it wants, there needs to be a means for the guilty to be forced to comply.

  374. Dear compatriots,

    This conversation has already gone on too long and is proving to be an unproductive waste of one’s time! You are playing into the hands of our enemies. We bicker here while our enemies work actively to usurp our rights and appropriate our heritage. I condemn Armenianweekly for ignoring much more pressing issues. For example, see this article which the editors of Armeniankeely completely missed! http://armenianow.com/arts_and_culture/33967/armenia_turkey_harisa_unesco_food_dish

    The news item I referenced in the link wouldn’t have happened if Armenia’s interior ministry was doing its job! We, as a diaspora failed at this as well. We\ are not doing enough to better Armenia. We do not use the enormous resources available to us effectively. The number one priority for us is to work towards eliminating corruption in Armenia, emigration out of and into Armenia, economy of Armenia, Artsakh, etc.

    It is disheartening to see the the amount of disunity amongst our people. Not one of our news publications speak with one voice, not one of our numerous political parties have a cexakron mentality.

  375. Paul…from discussions with Persians, Persian-Armenians and reading on my own, I’ve learned that the holocaust ‘denial’ that’s often discussed in the western press has more to do with resisting accepting any blame; as in, they had nothing to do with the holocaust, so why hold them responsible or try to make them feel guilty for something that was completely out of their control? If that’s really the case, I can understand. I cannot understand a complete denial that it happened, however.

    The other element in this discussion that should be taken into account is that having a very predictable, knee jerk reaction to anything that gives Turkey or Turks even a slight amount of consideration is exactly what they expect. It is like throwing a bone…all the dogs will run for it, without thinking for a second. In other words, you are being played like a fiddle, in a very Pavlovian way, which is just slightly unsettling. Do you ever think that they are enjoying this spectacle, enjoying this game?  Do you ever realize that he who wins the poker game rarely  exposes his hand until the end?   Playing your cards too soon always leads to failure. So, keep that in mind.

    Despite what you may think, I want and believe that truth about the genocide will succeed in Turkey, and that will open up the entire world, including their closest allies. However, success can be reached and defined in many different ways. The only thing that will guarantee that outcome is a smarter, more nuanced and finessed approach, something I’ve yet to see on these pages.

        

         

  376. Nationalist Armenians… how convenient for you to use that RVDV… sooo typical… I want to know what do you mean by that… please enlighten us…

  377. Please red the here below:
    The topic of 1937-1938 massacres in Dersim (today’s Tunceli, Turkey) has been transferred to television broadcasts. Turkey’s pro-government Beyaz TV Company’s program host Nagehan Alci caused great discontent in Turkey because of her bold statements. On live broadcast, the courageous host defined what occurred in Dersim as genocide and this received a quick reaction from the program’s moderator and guests. The moderator noted that the “genocide” term is dangerous, since Turkey is battling for long years against recognition of the Armenian Genocide. “Like a calamity, the Armenian Genocide problem hangs down Turkey like a sword, every year,” the moderator said. And in response, Nagehan Alci stressed that the events in 1915 were a shame and that if Turkey had sensibly faced those events a long time ago, it would not have found itself in such situation.

  378. After i read all words here by Armenian full of hatred ; I do not think Karekin is in safety against nationalist Armenians.

    Karekin , be carefull ..i would suggest not to discuss these matters in public.

  379. “RVDV,There are nationalist Turks but no nationalist Armenians.There are Armenian PATRIOTS”

    Ha ha ha, I love you VTiger. too much.

  380. RVDV,

    Taking the genocide issue to courts or the UN will not solve anything. 
    During WW1 many things bad happened not only to Turkish people but also to Armenians. A neutral comitee of historians must  investigate  what really happened in the time and then, all sides , Turks and Armenians, and kurdish , can apologize according to the result of investigation .
     
    The last few posts I’ve seen,  the same people have been calling Necati’s ancestor Turks, cowards and barbarians. Don’t insult my intelligence by saying you don’t hate Turks, you clearly resent them.

    You have yet to see NOTHING..i have followed  AW nearly for a year. And then, understood what probably happened in the past.

    These people got  happiness from  24 young Turkish security boys murdered by PKK. It was breaking point , and enough for me to hate these people. You know  there must be respect for the  dead people even they  are your enemy. Now, no more humanism for these people.Because they are not human.

    MR. RVDV,

    I have a question for you which i could not find a direct answer here.

    Who is the real owner, at the first , of Van and Agri?
    1.Armenians
    2.Kurdish
    3.French
    4.Turks 

    only one option.

  381. Karekin:  You state, “…why hold the [Iranian leadership] responsible [for Holocaust denial] or try to make them feel guilty for something that was completely out of their control?”  Answer: Because genocide is a crime against humanity, therefore, everyone, including the leadership of Iran, must recognize sad events in our common history even if they occurred out of their control.  You failed to provide an answer as to how, in your view, Israelites should deal with Iran denying the Holocaust? Should the Israelites resolve the issue by means of ‘groupthink’, as you suggest?  Re: ‘throwing a bone to dogs’, ‘being played like a fiddle’, and ‘playing cards too soon in the poker game’.  I could care less if Turks are enjoying this debate, because in contrast to you, I take this and other debates as a chance to make Armenians’ rightful claims known to the world, not as a ‘spectacle’ or a ‘game’. If you believe that ‘truth about the genocide will succeed in Turkey, and that will open up the entire world’, then you automatically must admit that these debates put in their two cents to that. If by ‘a smarter, more nuanced and finessed approach’ to the acceptance of truth about genocide in Turkey you mean ‘adapting ourselves to the Turks because we cannot change them’, then you’re completely off the line.  By the way, how technically you apply ‘a smarter, more nuanced and finessed approach’ to the Turks’ accepting the truth, if you believe we cannot change them? Absurd…

  382. great post VTiger  (‘RVDV,Boyajian….’).

     

  383. Necati, I can only hope that something powerful comes over you and opens your eyes to the truth.  You are blind with hatred and misinformation.  Also, you have no need to fear for Karekin.  Don’t spread discontent.  Karekin knows what he is doing and he knows that he takes an unpopular position.  It is his choice.  Those who disagree have every right to express their opinion.  That is how this forum works.  We don’t kill people for not adhering to a politically correct mantra or party line, like some places we know.

    Armen, thank you for the heads up.  The harisa story is an example of an unpunished genocide continuing into its second phase: the denial of the murdered nation’s cultural heritage and appropriation of it by the guilty as their own. 

    VTiger, thank you for the story about Nahegan Alci.  Reports like this give me hope that justice will prevail and that closed-minded malcontent’s like Necati will be exposed for the hate-mongers they are.

    RVDV, you say you agree with this:

    “Dialogue, diplomacy, education, public relations, conflict resolution, genocide recognition, Turkish apology and compensation to the Armenians, followed by open borders, open trade, and a commitment to peaceful relations are all needed.”

    Do you also agree that the main missing determinant for peace is  Turkish apology and compensation to the Armenians?   Armenians are trying all avenues to raise awareness of our cause but our biggest obstacle is the inability of the Turkish government and society at large to honestly appraise its own history and the denial thereof.

  384. VTiger, thanks also for your post to RVDV highlighting Armenian achievements in the face of a century of adversity.  It is good to acknowledge our positive accomplishments because we still have a long way to go and need to take encouragement from what we have achieved so far.  I like your nationalism!  

  385. Necati:
     
    At first, the “owners” of Van and Agri were Armenians- it’s a shame they cannot still live in part of their homeland. However, many of our Armenian friends neglect to mention that for centuries Turks and Kurds also lived in that region, making it their homeland too. Just because we are not native to Anatolia does not mean it is not our homeland. 
     
    Also, you say all sides should sit down and have a neutral investigation. Unfortunately, neither side wants to do that. Armenians don’t because they were not a “side” they were just victims of genocide. If the Turkish government wanted to they’d be voted out of office the next day, and Kurds are trying to create a nation for themselves in Northern Iraq- they would probably say we don’t have time for this. For that reason, if I came back to this site in 10 years the same discussions would probably be happening.

  386. Necati Bey- the only party who will apologize will be your coward govt and people like you.. dangerous nationalist Turks who deny the mere fact of what happened by who and to who.. you know very well what happened but you pretend to be uneducated or you are simply uneducated about the history …..who knows???.. however, dream on that historians will sit together and come up with who did what and who needs to apologize to who..we don’t need this BS committee you speak of to sit around and figure things out…  THAT WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED if you have not noticed.. why don’t you start thinking about a committee of your coward govt that will sit around the table and come up with a plan how to fix all the damage and everything they stole for almost 100 years..tha would be much beneficial and acceptable don’t you think Necati Bey??

  387. Necati Bey- your idiotic stance and question who owns Van and Mt. Ararat (you denialists love to rename all the Armenian names don’t you) does not deserve an answer because the entire world knows the answer  including you with your limited education on Armenian History

    But you can go on hating Armenians.. as you nicely put it we “gaymenians” are not humans… right???  

  388. “Armenians don’t because they were not a “side” they were just victims of genocide.”

    RVDV, I’m deeply moved by your open-mindedness and willingness to learn from others, as we are learning from you. I hope that some of the more heated exchanges of this conversation will not deter you from posting here in the future.

  389. On the Holocaust denial by Iranians/Persians and this deliberate distortion: ‘….from discussions with Persians, Persian-Armenians and reading on my own, I’ve learned that the holocaust ‘denial’ that’s often discussed in the western press has more to do with resisting accepting any blame; as in, they had nothing to do with the holocaust, so why hold them responsible or try to make them feel guilty for something that was completely out of their control?’
     
     
    Clearly, a deliberate distortion by a Turcophile apologist, cleverly laying the groundwork for this bromide: Ottoman Armenians were living in an Ottoman paradise. Those dastardly non-Turks from Salonika (hint, hint – Joos) were the ones who were responsible for the AG, not the Ottoman Turks, who, like the Iranians/Persians are being falsely blamed for something they did not do – see how neatly  it works ?
     
     
    No one has ever blamed Iranians/Persians for the Jewish  Holocaust: what are you hallucinating about, pal ?
    When was the last time ANYONE blamed Iranians/Persians for the Jewish Holocaust ?
     
     
     
    The translation issue has to do with the alleged threat by Pres. Ahmadinejad to quote “destroy Israel”, not the Holocaust denial.  The Israel issue WAS a deliberate mistranslation, which has been used by US Neocons to gin up a war with Iran. Ahmadinejad had said at the time that the days of the Regime in Israel were numbered (e.g referring to the racist Likudnik regime). He never said anything about destroying Israel.
    [Note: Candidate Hillary Clinton’s boast that she would “annihilate” Iran if she became President and if Iran presumably attacked Israel,  got quickly buried by the Neocon news media. Presumably, she had no compunction about murdering millions of innocent Iranians in the process of “annihilating” Iran].
     
     
    Ahmadinejad has also asked (paraphrased) “…why should Palestinian people pay for the sins of Europeans vis-à-vis Jews”. Unfortunately, his legitimate concern for the plight of victimized Palestinians is marred by his irrational questioning of the Jewish Holocaust.  There is no translation issue with the Holocaust. Mr. Ahmadinejad at various times has denied,  then withdrawn,  his  denial of the Jewish  Holocaust.
    Also, in 2006,  he organized a conference in Iran to, quote, “review the Holocaust”: there is no mistranslation there.
    The lying slime American  racist Denialist  David Duke was there also.
     
     
    Pres. Ahmadinejad’s irrational behaviour vis-à-vis the Jewish Holocaust dishonors the great  Iranian Nation, with a history of rich, peaceful and tolerant civilization: Cyrus  the Great  and his followers showed amazing tolerance (for the time) to alien faiths of the conquered.

  390. Hello from istanbul
    .Let me ask a few question, 
    is nationalism good? or Turkish nationalism is bad but Armenian nationalism is good, is it possible?
     nationalism is just one stop before racism, and i beilive that racism is against the humanity. there is no good racism on the earth. best regards     

  391. necati,before I reciprocate to your love please describe me your physical characteristics.

  392. avatar John the turk // December 10, 2011 at 4:54 am // Reply

    Necati

    You have yet to see NOTHING..i have followed  AW nearly for a year. And then, understood what probably happened in the past.

    Halil mentese, one of the CUP’s prominent member said in his memoir ” we had several meetings with Armenians. We explained the situation clearly but it was impossible to convince these dream chasers. 

  393. John,

    We must admit that Armenians are best at propaganda in the world.

    They probably know the truths but pretend not. Their only target by doing so is to  get some money out of Turks for poor Armenia .

  394. Hello to Istanbul,

    As others have said here before, nationalism can have different connotations to different cultures.  I understand in Turkey it is considered to be a form of racism.  But to others it is patriotism.  It is possible to be a patriot without being a racist.  Consider this: I can love my ‘family”, support them, and be proud of them and still love and support my neighbors and be overjoyed for their successes.   Nationalism isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
     

  395. Hello to Istanbul: ‘Turkish nationalism is bad but Armenian nationalism is good, is it possible?’ 

    Yes it is: not only is it possible, but it is necessarily so.
    Turk Nationalists exterminated Armenians because they were Armenians.
    Armenian Nationalist killed Turks to defend their people from certain death.
    When you break into someone’s house and kill them, you are a criminal.
    When you kill someone who break into your house intent on  killing you, you are not: you are a hero who saved his family from certain death.
    Turk Nationalist work to erase any traces of Armenian existence.
    Armenian Nationalists work to preserve the rich 5000 year culture of Armenians and defend the rights of Armenians.
    Turk Nationalists to this day continue their efforts to erase RoA and exterminate Armenians (I will give you examples if you like).
    Armenian Nationalists are only working to restore preserve what is ours.

    Last time I checked there were NO Armenians in the homeland of Turkic people. 
    Last time I checked descendants of Turkic  tribes are living in my homeland – Armenian Highlands. 

    Please do not hesitate to visit us and post thought provoking questions: we are her to help.

  396. Boyajian: That depends. Do you think Armenians will be at peace with an apology and compensation? Will “I’m sorry” and money make up for what happened? I have stated before, I think to expect land from Turkey is unrealistic. If land claims is a must along with an apology and formal recognition, I do not think Turkey will recognize or apologize for the genocide. There are many court cases by Armenians against the Turkish republic in America. Remember, Joe Biden and Obama were supporters of genocide recognition, Biden in particular, yet both have since backed off considerably from their statements. The way world politics is, if America has to choose between it’s relationship with Armenia and Turkey, I am strongly inclined to believe they will choose Turkey. That’s why I say Armenia needs to sit down with Turkey, not take this issue to foreign powers and courts. Even if these American courts find Turkey guilty, how are they going to enforce to compensation ruling? They can’t. I know many Armenians are completely against the idea of sitting down with Turkey, but I honestly believe it is the only way.— Back to the original question, no I do not think there will be peace with Armenians and Turks even with an apology and compensation. Just think Israel and Germany. Germans may not have a problem with Israelis today, but there is still a lot of resentment amongst Israelis and Jews towards Germany. Some still refuse to buy German cars for example. I think there is too much resentment and bitterness for there to be peace between Armenians and Turks. I don’t see how human life can be “compensated” for with money and land. If I lost my whole family and community, you could give me all the money and land in the world, it wouldn’t change how I feel about the people who did it. But then again, almost 100 years have gone by. Almost all of the genocide survivors and instigators are dead, I also think it’s wrong to hold people accountable for their father’s crimes.

  397. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // December 11, 2011 at 4:33 am // Reply

    We are teaching Brain washed people here
    We don’t know what instrument…what words  
    should we use to make them once again feelers 
    Very childish…rude..unfair statement 
    Who said, “Armenians make propaganda”
     
    We waste our time here for propaganda…!?!?
    We are busy more than anyone can think 
    But we find time to feel with our people 
    and everyone who passed through the same pain like us…
     
    I have written collections of poetry about all genocides…
    Beside ours…From Bengal…till Rwanda…till Halabja…till Darfour
    Am I making propaganda…? 
    What an unfair statement to say…
    When I feel with others is it propaganda…?
    or it is strong feeling for what they went through…
     
    Awake our friends here…Awake feel  
    Even if you are child you can’t write this way 
    But you are not…Your brain is completely washed 
    Nothing factual can enter in…
     
    If there is God 
    He will punish who did it…
    But even god leaves the slayers
    As he can’t clean all the blood 
    Stagnated in every peace of land…and many others
    That slayers entered Africa …Till Asia …Till Arabia…Till Persia
    Now they are trying to enter in…and once again…by all means…
    They are refused in many ways…
    Remembering what they did in the past…
    Every race suffered from their brutality…

    SP 

  398. RVDV,

    You said before that the land which is populated by Kurdish people today belongs to Armenians at first.  Do you remember?

    Now, You say :”  I have stated before, I think to expect land from Turkey is unrealistic”

    You have paradox here.

    Or, you do not want Hays “expect”  the land from   Turkey because it is already occupied by your people “kürt” ?

    Oh well,  i told here before. It would be a good boxing match between  Armenians and Kurds if Turks really leave there.

    We can say : history would repeat itself  and Kurds would cut Armenians for the second time .

  399. RVDV, 

    i condemn you kurdish people on your occupation Hay land.

    Would your kurds  please  leave the land  and go to whereever they came from.

    here another fact :

    the kurdish people  supporting PKK-KCK-BDP who say the eastern Turkey is originally kurdish land   are all LIERS.   it is  around 3-4 million people vote for terrorist BDP.

    BIG LIERS…

  400. necati,you have raised the subject of Ararat & Van before & previous Kurd commentators similar to RVDV have said that it belonged (or used to) to Armenians.
    My ANSWER:LAND DOES NOT BELONG TO ANYBODY BUT YOU BELONG TO THE LAND.It is very similar to a certain plant growing in a certain particular region for example an olive tree grows in warmer climates & not in the Arctic.It can only grow artificially in the Arctic & not naturally.
    We Armenians have lived on that land for thousands of years & the land has made us what we are.We’ve been uprooted from these lands by butchery,massacres & force.Survivors of this butchery at present are living artificially & craving to go back to their habitat.
    Coming to mount Ararat:different races,people that have lived next to majestic high mountains have worshiped & accepted them as SACRED.Examples are numerous from the Chinese,Indians,Tibetans,Japanese & so on.All these people including of course the Armenians have composed poems,songs,painted & sung praises of their sacred mountain.In every Armenian home whether in Istanbul,Yerevan or anywhere in the world mount Ararat is present in photos or paintings.
    ARARAT IS SACRED FOR US & WE HAVE THE NEED TO GO BACK TO IT & THE DAY WILL COME THAT WE’LL GO BACK TO OUR SACRED SPIRITUAL MOUNTAIN.

  401. Necati:
     
    PKK is a terrorist organization. BDP is a political party. I tried to make that as simple as I could so your little mind could process that information. 
     
    Secondly: for centuries Turks and Kurds also lived in that region, making it their homeland too.
    I never said it was “Kurdish” land. Furthermore, Kurdish people are not occupying anything. As you know, there is no such thing as “kurds.” We are obviously Mountain Turks, and as eastern Turkey is very mountainous, we are not occupying anything. As mountain Turks we are obviously going to live in the mountains.


    What does “go where you came from” even mean? If you look at a map of Kurdish inhabited places you will see most of eastern Turkey. We have been here for thousands of years, last I checked, it was Turks who were not native to Anatolia or the Middle East. Come on Necati, you’re making this too easy for me.

  402. Necati and John the Turk,
    You both do realize that you two are wasting your efforts here. These people are so indoctrinated that anything that you write will be met with a barrage of hate, insults and typical denialism (as per their programed conditioning). Just saying.
     

  403. RVDV:  That depends.  How much money are we talking?

    I think a real apology from Turkey, accepting blame and offering repentance and condolences is primary.  We don’t need an apology like this Dersim apology with its finger pointing and political posturing.  And yes, gobs and gobs of money to Armenia earmarked for infrastructure building, economic renewal, cultural preservation, diasporan immersion and reintegration, cross-cultural exchange and nation building, etc.  But also promises to: 
    1.  exercise influence on their Azeri cousins to the east to respect the right of Armenians for self-determination and 2. never invade Armenia again.  

    This seems like a good start to me, but I am sure more knowledgeable people could share their wisdom regarding what is fair and right regarding land reparations and ongoing economic support.

  404. Amen VTiger.  Ararat is sacred to Armenians.

    Robert, Necati and Yahya the Turk, you are welcome to engage in civil discussion here but don’t expect your denialist misinformation to go unchallenged by Armenians.   Ittihadists organized a campaign to exterminate Armenians from their homeland that resulted in the murder of 1.5 million people, all citizens of the Ottoman empire.  No so-called Armenian rebellion or provocation can be used as an excuse for these heinous actions.  Ataturk at first acknowledged these events as shameful acts only later to initiate policies to erase the past and rehabilitate the authors of genocide into military and cultural heroes who streets, schools and public buildings are named after.  Today Turkey continues to refuse to admit to these events and engages in creating confusion and distortion regarding the genocide.

    This is my starting point for any discussion.  No brain-wash, no propaganda, no hatred. Only desire for justice.  Only facts.

     

  405. Avery I liked your response  Hello to Istanbul regarding the differences in Turkish and Armenian nationalists.

  406. Turk-oglu Robert: 

    Nobody is forcing you or any other Turk, AzeriTurk or Turcophile poster to visit @AW.
    Nobody is forcing you to post comments here  either.
    Some of you have even promised at various times not to post @AW anymore, yet can’t stay away: you keep coming back. Welcome to the party, but don’t expect to be treated like delicate flowers.

    Don’t expect to come to ArmenianWeekly, post Anti-Armenian Denialist propaganda – and not expect a vigorous rebuttal  from patriotic Armenians.

    (A little trip to the memory lane: your Turk buddy Necati asked all  Turks not to post @AW a while back. Even he couldn’t stay away more than a couple of weeks.)
     

  407. ‘….you are welcome to engage in civil discussion here but don’t expect your denialist misinformation to go unchallenged by Armenians.’ : exactly that, Boyajian.

  408. I would like to give a strong second to what Boyajian says [Dec. 11th). A true apology–not like the Dersim one–is what is needed. No one can say what would follow in terms of material compensation. Neither Turkey nor Armenians know.  What is needed is a coming clean to radically change the atmospherics. Everything proceeds from that. The implicit threat to the Republic of Armenia that goes with Turkey’s ongoing genocide denial must be removed. Armenians and all minorities in Turkey must be free to prosper and express their cultural identity without being perceived as enemies of the state. A genuine apology is the starting point. Boyajian offers many excellent examples of the sorts of redress that could be implemented. Thank you, Boyajian, for finally bringing this discussion back to the central point. I thought it had gone off the rails for good.

  409. I second that Avery jan.. Boyajian said it well.. It is hillarious to read Robert The Turk (Robert the TURKS… still trying to count how any of them are posting on our pages), John the Turk, and Necati Bey along with Kerim, Monastras, and the ilk… they are such whiners and complainers… the minute they feel cornered (and I am talking about on the intelligent level), they bring out their guns (referring to their complains, moaning, whining, accusing, yelling, name calling, and rude comments) to stir the conversation and create confusion… but guess we are too informed about their sad stories and how far they will go just to avoid the questions addressed to them… guess it is very painful for face the truth and very very easy to crawl back into the hole they came out of and remain as closed minded, nationalist denialists.. it is unfortunate…

  410. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // December 12, 2011 at 2:05 am // Reply

    sooner or later
    samy alshamy-GMT 23:12:49 2011 السبت 10 ديسمبر
    to turkish leaders you are spending the millions of dollars around the world just to make sure that the historians and parliaments of other country”s not to recognize the genocide that was perpetrated by the ottomans. you can”t change the history you can lie and act innocent will not help you yes you killed the entire armenian population and you took over their homes and belongings and sent them to the syrien desert to die without food and water women and elderly and children not men because most of the men you called them to serve in the army and killed them right there with cold blood and took all the golds from them telling whoever pays 5 ottoman gold liras he will be dismissed. on and on you should have the courage just like a lot of turk intellectuals such as orhan pamuk to accept the reality .germans did to israel so is italians to lybians armenians are waiting for your apology the sooner is better because the americans are tired of hearing the same story every year thank you elaph for printing it.

    This is another one from an Arab against Turk in English. 
      

  411. avatar John the turk // December 12, 2011 at 12:19 pm // Reply

    Venomous Tiger

    I know for a fact that so many target have successfully been achieved fro example, Karabakh was brutally invaded and colonized so I was wondering when are you going to free western Armenia? because we do not want to build more dam if we are to loose the territory 

  412. Boyajian:
     
    You also have to consider that after the destruction of the Armenian nation and its Sovietization, Turkey was able to form alliances with the west. It became a member of NATO and gained hundreds of millions from the Marshall Plan, etc. Turkey is not a rich country, but from what I have seen, it is doing much better than Armenia. This goes back to the genocide. So when you say how much money, it doesn’t matter, in the end, Turkey’s gain will be far greater than reparations paid, it is unfortunate for Armenians, but it is true. Some damages can’t be reversed.

  413. Hey Notorious Yahya the Turk.. the screen name of my friend is VTiger.. not what you rudely called him…. don’t continue your regular TUrkish way of renaming names… we all know you denialists and nationalists are great at changing/renaming names.. so refer to the person the way they post on our pages… we understand you have the urge to go by a Biblical Name but John does not belong to you… which is why we call you Yahya.. the legal name that belongs to you… BIG difference.. so going forward, shove your rudeness and desire to be venomeous toward those who stop you dead on your denialist tracks…

  414. John the Turk: 
    You are confused son. It is not logically possible to invade one’s own  land and colonize it. Armenians threw out brutal invaders and colonizers from their own  Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabagh. Just so you are no longer confused: ‘invaders and colonizers’  would be your buddies – Azeri_Tatar_Turks.  Remember this  immutable historical fact: Armenians are indigenous; Non-indigenous Tatar Turks invaded Caucasus  from their own homeland in East and Central Asia around 1000 AD. In 2010 while visiting Uyghurs of China your  FM Davutoğlu said this {“We are visiting the birthplace of our ancestors”}. Do you know how far East of Caucasus is the homeland of Uyghurs ? 

    Regarding Western Armenia: please continue building infrastructure, such as dams – we don’t mind. We will take it when we are ready: its value will be deducted from the Reparations and the rent Turks have not paid for the use of our lands. Everyone will be happy. Thank you very much.
     

    BTW: corrupting someone’s name to ‘Venomous  Tiger’ is childish, son. Your Turkish Biology class is apparently as full of myths as the Turkish  History class. I have bad news for you: there is no such animal on planet Earth. What else did they teach you there ? Maybe they taught you that snakes have legs ? 

  415. sylva-MD-Poetry
     
    What gave you the impression Arabs liked Turks and vice versa? I mean, we were their colonial power for a very long time, there is still resentment there, just because both groups adhere to the same religion does not make them allies.

  416. Oh but Avery jan… let’s not rule out the fact that snakes may have legs.. because as we all know Turkish educational system is as absurd as the people who learned it first hand and now are spreading false information… so snake having legs can be a possibility .. lol of course only to these denialists becase one thinks there are tigers who are venemous…lol …i laugh because these denialists don’t cease from embarassing themselves…. but that is ok.. it is entertaining .. let them embarass themselves…

  417. Well said Avery jan.. well said….apres…

  418. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 13, 2011 at 5:01 am // Reply

    RVDV

    Thanks for your letter…
    There was another letter in Arabic but they removed it (the letter was much stronger than the previous one) that simple Arabs are getting affected by Turks…because of the religion but it was removed from this site…I have much contact from the area…they are watching Turkish films…and go for holidays …but once they go they come back disappointed…

    Sylva

    Note: Many Armenians they can read Arabic, please don’t remove the letters because it is in another language…
    “Every Language Has a Soul…
    Can you Learn Languages All…?”
    Some times translation doesn’t give the same meaning…

  419. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 13, 2011 at 5:42 am // Reply

    Avery

    {“We are visiting the birthplace of our ancestors”} Davud-oglu from his real land said
    He calls himself David’s son…See how they change their names…Became Muslim Became, Jews To get what they want…still they are what they are with the same genes…no one can change…
     

    Thanks Avery, for sending this statement…It should been typed by BOLD-BLOOD-LETTERS
    We have many good writers around let them to write as a heading so every one should know who are they …from which area they came…New generations are confused on this site like many turks who know they have Armenian blood for that reason they enter this site …as 
    Gayane gave good analysis for their psychology …
    I call her congrats …
    We should help them…

    Boyadjian…with her soft analytical phrases with soulfull advices… 
    We need her always on this site

    My opinion is…
    We must analyze from their names and their psychology
    Why they are on our site…?

    Example…name Kerim…It should be written Kareem…It is very Arabic word 
    which means “Kind and Generous”
    Arabic language are beautiful and their poets in my opinion are the best…
    Even now when I typed it Kerim name underlined my red…
    while Kareem showed no red line in the computer…
    It Means Name KAREEM is Accepted but not Kerim…Even their name have confused them 
    And they force their wrong names on Armenian…See in what a hell they live in…
    And force the others to live in the same hell…See what an unlucky nation we are…
    Good helps our Armenians …
    Our Artful Kareem nation

    Sylva 

  420. RVDV, I am not sure I understand your point in your last message to me.  What is fair and right in your eyes?

    Comparing Armenia and Turkey is silly.  Ottoman Turks did immeasurable damage to Armenia and the Armenian people, and the Republic of Turkey is the direct beneficiary of the crime against Armenians.  Of course Turkey is in better shape with its Western alliances and monetary support and confiscated Armenian wealth.  A weakened Turkey is not my hope, but a strengthened, secure Armenia is.  

  421. Thanks Diran.  All Armenians want solutions, justice for a 96 year old crime.

    Sylva, thanks for your kind words. 

  422. Boyajian: I think an apology and reparations is both fair and really all Turkey can do. What I am trying to say is an apology and reparations won’t make things alright. I don’t think Turkey and Armenia will ever have normalized relation. I don’t think an apology and reparation will change the minds of most people on this forum. Apologies and reparations will not change the fact that Turkey has benefited in ways that cannot be paid back (alliances and such). All it will do is give Armenians some closure, maybe not a lot, but some, and it will allow Turkey to say “alright, leave us alone now.” An apology and reparations are necessary and should happen, but I don’t it will change much between Armenia and Turkey and Armenians and Turks. I hope I am just overly pessimistic and that I am wrong.

  423. avatar John the turk // December 14, 2011 at 5:45 am // Reply

    Avery

    Before you dare to preach you should give us the breakdown of your 12 millions of Armenians in the world. We are still waiting for you 

  424. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 14, 2011 at 9:28 am // Reply

    1937- 1938 DERSİM KATLİAMI
    http://www.youtube.com

    Everyone should watch
    this Heart Braking Y-tube 
    You can hear the pain
    in the singer’s voice
    He is crying from his soul
    All full of blood…

    Sylva 

  425. RVDV, I just want to add to this thought:

    ” A weakened Turkey is not my hope, but a strengthened, secure Armenia is. ”

    I believe Turkey has an obligation to help Armenia become a stable nation with a self-sustaining economy after the damage done to the Armenian nation by Turks in 1915 and the ongoing infliction of genocide denial upon the survivors and their descendants.

  426. RVDV.. we are not concerned right now what will change between Armenians and Turks.. what we are concerned about is how Turkey will repay everything they stole and enjoy through their barbaric ancestors Genocide of my ancestors…. some of the things you say makes no sense to me.. i am not really sure as to why you worry about the relationship betwen Armenians and Turks .. You know there will never be the time that Turks will like Armenians.. we already know the way they comment on Turkish sites about Armenians.. so much hatered.. so much nastyness, so much rudeness VERY OPENLY expressed….. Armenians are nto as notorious and hateful as nationalist Turks that we deal with day in and out on these pages… so instead of worrying about what will change between two  cultures, lets worry about the reparation, apology, and everything else that Turkey owns Armenians…because you know Turks will never get along with Armenians and because of their behaviour in the past and now, Armenians will never trust them… unless a totally clean up and revap happens to Turkey….

    Yahya the Turk Avery can preach and even yell if he wants to.. who are you to dictate what anyone on these pages can do or not.. you notorious denialists are with your messed up minds are telling us what to do? not only you are notorious denialists but you are hillarious.. what a joke…  

  427. RVDV, thank you again for your openness.  Does it strike you as strange as it strikes me that you use the expression “Now leave us alone”  in your last post to me when describing what, hypothetically, Turkey can say to Armenians after an apology and reparations are made?  It is as if it is Turkey that is the injured party.  I have said it before.  When it comes to justice for the Armenians, it is as if the world has been turned upside down.  The abuser feels abused and entitled to denigrate the already badly injured victim for seeking justice.  Very odd.
     

    Armenians may ‘leave Turks alone’ someday, but without a sincere collective soul-searching, will your collective conscience leave you alone?   Remember, it is not just the acts of genocide that must be apologized for, but also its denial and the ongoing denigration of all things Armenian, as well as the anti-Armenian political maneuvering that has gone on for almost 97 years.  We can accept an apology and reparations, and believe me, we want to move on as much as Turks do, but the question is how does Turkey purge itself of this stain?  Lady Macbeth and Germany may be able to shed some light.  Just don’t blame us if that ‘damn spot’ is hard to remove.

  428. Gayane & Avery,I’m touched with your responses to the devout Christian.I’m honored when commentators call me names,as it means that I’ve chipped a brick from their stone walled brains.
    Anyhow,from the devout Christian’s writing style,I know very well who he is.

  429. ‘Avery Before you dare to preach you should give us the breakdown of your 12 millions of Armenians in the world. We are still waiting for you’

    John the Turk, as my friend Gayane said: I can dare preach till cow come home, and then some,  when Denialists like you open the door. I rarely, if ever, give unsolicited advice. However, when you Turks, AzeriTurks, and your agents attack – I am all in. Expect no consideration. 

    As to the 12 million: Apologize to VTiger, on record, for insulting him, promise never to insult him again, again on record, and then ask me nicely: I may provide the details, if I am in a good mood. Deal ?

  430. Gayane: Again, insulting people’s ancestors is not a very effective way to  get them to do what you want. Also, there is mutual dislike and disrespect, Turks are just stupid enough to think posting it on the internet will change peoples opinions of Armenians to negative. And I am concerned about cultures: Armenian, Turk, and even Greek cultures share many remarkable similarities, we just can’t see that behind our veil of hatred. There were long stretches of time where Armenians and Turks lived together, maybe not with peace and love, but with tolerance and respect- it can happen again (in my opinion).
     
    Boyajian: Yes, I agree, it is strange the way the script is written backwards for the Armenian genocide. I recently bought a book called the World Atlas, by the Onion- it’s a very funny book making fun of every country in the World. Armenia’s heading was “wah wah, the Turks were mean to us.” It was a funny heading that was obviously a joke, but it does show how the Armenian genocide is viewed by many- not just Turks. Also, I believe with an apology and reparations Turkey can purge itself of the stains. Like I have stated many times before, people shouldn’t be held accountable for the crimes of their ancestors- but they should have the integrity to recognize it.

  431. ‘ “Now leave us alone”  ….’Very odd.’  there you have it Boyajian.
    They all put up a good show, but sooner or later  they all slip-up: very hard to hide one’s true feelings.

  432. Boyajian: Thank YOU for taking part in a mature discussion with me and not writing me off as a denialist simply because I am from Turkey.

  433. VTiger jan.. you are absolutely right.. i share your thought process about having these denialists calling us names.. you are right.. we did our job hitting a soft spot (That means.. the truth spot and everytime we hit it, the truth nerve vibrates in their body and it produces pain; hence their response to us).. Avery said the same thing… menq irar het hamamit enq..:)

    Avery jan- well said my friend.. 

    Boyajian jan- very accurate response to RVDV.. apres  

  434. RVDV- i am very happyto know you care about cultures. .we all do.. however, in our case that is something that can wait.. there are more pressing matters that Turkey needs to deal with than think about their relationship with Armenians.. if they cared about Armenians, they would not wait for almost 100 years to make things right…. on the contrary, they have done everything the opposite.. have you not noticed that???

    In addition, you keep bringing the “insulting” factor.. wouldyou please cease from addresing it in such matter??? we repeatedly expressed that no one on these pages insulted anyone’s ancestorsy except of course your notorious denialists countrymen… it is not insulting when one is stating facts… why sugar coating it…..it is in black and white.. your ancestors were bloody barbaric nomad tribes.. deal with it.. BUT just because we speak of it and keep repeating it, it does not mean you or your family are too.. UNLESS you have people like Necati and other notorious denialists who openly threatens and insults, TRULY insults us ..

    I also noticed your statement of “now leave us alone” … I agree with Boyajian but even more so with Avery because I too think true colors slip up sooner or later no matter how sophisticated and polite one posts on our pages…   

    One more thing dear RVDV… your comment to Boyajian makes me think how you view Armenians..because your statement of thanking her for speaking with you and not voiding your exisitance on this pages because you are from Turkey is another odd statement by you.. what does this mean? are you saying your view of Armenians here are as that?  We refuse to have communication with Turks JUST BECAUSE they happen to be from Turkey?? I believe you should revise your statement immediately because that gives off the WRONG impression of Armenians who post on these pages.. you are painting wrong color of us… 

    I feel your view of Armenians are not as favorable as you portray.. i could not wrong.. if i am.. my apologies..but my gut feeling is usually right….  

    Also, I know you gave us a reason as to why you consider yourself a Turk and not a Kurd but your reasoning does not make sense to me sorry..  I am still questioning this.. sorry…     

  435. Avery: and it will allow Turkey to say “alright, leave us alone now.”
    If you read my whole comment, you would have noticed that I said Turkey will able to say that if they recognize genocide. Show me where I said I think that. You are so quick to jump on others and demand an apology from them. I feel like you may owe me one.

  436. RVDV:  It’s not as linear as you portray: “There were long stretches of time where Armenians and Turks lived together, maybe not with peace and love, but with tolerance and respect- it can happen again.”  You see Armenians’ endurance in the Ottoman centuries through a positivist dimension. But please take a look at the events through the historical dimension. Here they are, Armenians, living for thousands of years on their lands and then in the 11th century come nomadic Seljuk warriors, subjugate them, destroy their churches, monasteries, way of life, social habits and affiliations, adapt their (as well as Persian, Assyrian, and Byzantine Greek) cultural and civilizational traits and by the 16th century establish their House of Osman in which all non-Turk and non-Muslim natives are given a humiliating status of millet. Is this what you call “lived together”? As if both communities had equal rights and both were annihilated as a race by some third murderer-nation.
     
    Same with the phrase “with tolerance and respect”. Do I really need to remind you as to what Turks would do if a millet were intolerant and disrespectful?
     
    “It can happen again”. God Forbid, RVDV, are you cursing us?!

  437. RVDV, I did read the whole post. Sorry, but the phrase “alright, leave us alone now.” , which you yourself constructed, stands on its own, and indicates your real feelings.
    You are too smart not to understand what I mean.
    And I did not base my conclusion on that sentence alone. But when  even our friend Boyajian, who is far more tolerant  and conciliatory than I,  noticed it and found it odd, I decided to second it. And there is no doubt in my mind that Boyajian read the post carefully. 

    And no I am not so quick to demand an apology. Point to several other demands for apology I have made @AW, except the clearly  justified demand from John the Turk.

    And no I owe you no apology. 

  438. Your welcome RVDV.  I think we all wish we could talk to each other with respect and genuine human compassion.  If only that respect could lead to understanding, repentance and justice for the Armenian people.

    The Onion is clever, but I hope you will understand if I don’t find what you shared as funny.  It is quite sad.  But it does tell me how dominating the genocide saga is in the Armenian narrative.  We have so much more that defines us. Yet it is overshadowed by this tragedy which can’t be put to rest because it is not over as long as denial and desecration of Armenian history and culture continues.  The genocide continues as long as Turkey and their Azeri cousins continue to place Armenia and Armenians in peril.  

    Turkey and Turks may feel annoyed, irritated, insulted and attacked by Armenian demands for justice, but Turkey holds the key to putting this history to rest. 

  439. RVDV, one more thing regarding…

    “Like I have stated many times before, people shouldn’t be held accountable for the crimes of their ancestors- but they should have the integrity to recognize it.”

    I’m not with you on this.  In theory this might seem logical but this is typical Turkish defensiveness if you ask me.  We are not asking individual Turks to pay for the crimes of their individual ancestors; we are asking Turks collectively, as the nation of Turkey and the heirs of the Ottoman empire, to pay for their collective ancestors crimes just as they made all Armenians collectively pay with their lives for the sin of being Armenian.

    But of course I agree that people should have the integrity to be honest about their history and show remorse for their ancestors crimes and to stop inflicting pain that was set in motion by their ancestors. 

  440. Paul: haha no, I am not cursing you. And yes, you are right, I know that non-Turkish non-muslims were always treated as second class citizens. However, there was a difference between the Ottoman government and every day Ottoman Turks, many of whom were neighbors and friends with Armenians. I know things weren’t as nice as I may be portraying them, but don’t forget that the Ottomans were a heck of a lot nicer to Armenians then the Young Turks ever were.
     
    Avery: Again, all I said was, if Turkey recognizes the genocide, in my opinion, it will do little more than give the Turkish government the chance to say “alright, leave us alone now.” I never, at any point, said that is how I felt, and you can’t deny that.

  441. RVDV… here is a thing … in your post where you stated …”it will allow Turkey to say “alright, leave us alone now”.. you had I think………….. and I don’t think……………. statements all over in that post.. so why do you think we should not take that statement as your own feelings???? if Avery and Boyajian and then I who read your comment and came to the same conclusion, why do you think your argument of that is not what I think or feel stands true?? just saying….

  442. Gayane: True, Turkish people may not care about Armenia or Armenians, but I do not represent all Turkish people, just myself, and I do care. The ancestor thing. I know what my ancestors were, I am not ashamed of them. I consider them to be admirable people who went from nomads to a world power. But again, “bloody, barbaric nomad tribes” ideology does no one any good. And to be honest, they were no more bloody and barbaric then the rest of the world. Can you say the Spanish were less barbaric towards native Americans than the Turks were to Armenians (put the genocide denial aside for just one moment and think about it neutrally)? Were Armenians treated that much worse by the Ottoman Empire than the native Americans were treated the United States? Were Armenians more dehumanized than the Jews during the Holocaust? The only difference I see- other people accepted fault on behalf of their ancestors, and paid reparations. So, yes Gayane, my ancestors were bloody and barbaric- but they werent’t that much more barbaric and that much more bloody than other colonial powers of their day. In the end, I believe genocide denial will be more of a stain on Turkey than genocide itself, because rather than having to accept fault on behalf of one generation, you now have to accept fault on the behalf on the many generations after that.
     
    I also understand why you feel my sincerity is, in fact, insincere. There are a lot of denialists and denialists-under-cover on these forums, but I can do nothing to stop them. I have stated this previously, I am here to learn, not to comment about how wrong you all are. I have learned a lot from all of you (I am a history major in college), which was my intention. I do not represent Turkish people or denialists, I just represent myself. I don’t know what else I can do to convince any one here of my true intentions. And no, my true colors haven’t come out because Avery twisted my comment to a point that I did not intend it to come to. If my true colors came out, you wouldn’t be questioning my motives here. Anyways, like I said, I am not here to argue with anyone, just to get a new perspective and learn. If my “true colors” bothers anyone I can certainly leave AW.

  443. Gayane: yes, I feel said the government of Turkey will feel like “ok, leave us alone.” I am not a government spokesmen. I never said that’s how I feel personally, I just said that how I think the government will feel. Seriously, come on.

  444. Boyajian: I agree. I think Armenia has more to offer the world culturally then, as you said “the genocide saga.” The continued denial hurts Armenia and Armenians in very different ways, culturally in particular. I think we are saying the same thing about genocide recognition. Turks collectively should collectively accept genocide and its consequences, but they should not collectively bear the burden of a crime because their particular ancestors may not have even committed the crime. But then again, being indifferent to something like genocide makes you just as guilty as those who commit it in my opinion.

  445. RVDV:  You state, “However, there was a difference between the Ottoman government and every day Ottoman Turks, many of whom were neighbors and friends with Armenians.”  Well, again, many of these ‘everyday neighbors and friends’ turned murderers, rapists, looters, and thieves in 1915-1923.  You also advise not to “forget that the Ottomans were a heck of a lot nicer to Armenians then the Young Turks ever were.”  From the ethnic perspective, what’s the difference between this or that political type of Turks? ‘Great Assassin’ (as he was dubbed by the Europeans) Sultan Abdulhamid II was an Ottoman, not a Young Turk, yet this coldblooded murderer slaughtered up to 300,000 Armenians in 1894-1896 and several hundred thousands of Greeks and Assyrians. Masonic Dönmeh Mustafa Kemal was the one who rose against the Ottomans and the Young Turks, yet in 1922 by his orders tens of thousands Armenians and Greeks of Smyrna (Izmir) were burnt alive and in 1936-1939 Kurds and Armenians of Dersim (Tunceli) were bombed.  For us, Turks are Turks, whether Seljuk or Ottoman or Ittihadist or Kemalist. It’s the same ilk.

  446. From Hurriyet, Dec. 16. Calling special attention to the final paragraph below, we can see that the “Dersim apology” is in no way a precursor to an apology for the Armenian Genocide. If the Turkish state, the Turkish nation, and the Turkish community living in France are see to be threatened by a bill that does not even mention Turkey, then it is clear that an admission of genocide is the last thing on Turkey’s mind. 

    Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan sent a letter today to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, warning of the “grave consequences” a French bill recognizing Armenian genocide claims would have on bilateral relations. 
    “I want to express this clearly,” Erdoğan said. “These steps will lead to grave consequences for the cultural, economic and political relations between France and Turkey, and the responsibility of these consequences will fall on those who initiated those steps.” 
    Erdoğan further said such a bill would be seen as directly “targeting the Turkish state, the Turkish nation, and the Turkish community living in France.”  
     

     

    from: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdogan-warns-sarkozy-of-grave-consequences–.aspx?pageID=238&nID=9333&NewsCatID=338

  447. Diran- Erdogan is a scared.. very very scared.. he knows the end to his madness is coming to an end.. LET HIM recall its ambassador and freeze all ties.. He has been barking the same bark for anyone who voices their agreement on the GEnocide matter.. Let him threaten everyone and all the countries… lets see how he is going to carry out the “grave consequences”.. what a coward…

  448. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 17, 2011 at 7:37 am // Reply

    New Ottomans are more scavengers than before …
     

    American congress
    Refused to hear our painfulness…  
    For them we are only bunch of minorities, 
    It seems even god closed his skies 
    Continuing … not to hear our soulful calls…
     
    Let us see French congress 
    Who teach every race 
    Freedom…Liberty…
    Will thee close as well! 
     
    If … Did 
    We will say,
    No faith …No humanity…
     
    A race which arrived with scimitars 
    (Killed and confiscated 
    Those who build fortresses) 
    Will remain the winners …
     
    For the innocents 
    To live in this earth…Is Unfair 
    As they can’t correct any mistakes …
    Handed by criminals
    No justice will ever prevail…

    Awake Armenian Awake…
    We don’t need Churches 
    Think to build new Fortresses 
    To protect our young cohorts…

    Sylva-MD-Poetry
    Written Instantly 

     

  449. RVDV you wrote:

    “The ancestor thing. I know what my ancestors were, I am not ashamed of them. I consider them to be admirable people who went from nomads to a world power. “

    Again, very odd.  I thought you were an ethnic Kurd? Who are your ancestors?  

    I get that you view your self as a Turk, as one who is a descendant of people who came from Turkey.  But what is a “Turk”?

     Also, Turkey as a ‘world power’ is all smoke and mirrors, a facade propped up by foreign aid and the whim of geopolitical powers that be.  Don’t buy the bonds.

    (And stop drinking the Kool-aid!)

    ” Turks collectively should collectively accept genocide and its consequences,…” 

    Agreed.

    “… but they should not collectively bear the burden of a crime because their particular ancestors may not have even committed the crime.”

    Sorry, RVDV, I don’t think you can have it both ways.   I don’t think you can avoid the stigma, nor should you, if you hope to fully process this history at a level that makes an impact on one’s psyche or the collective consciousness of Turkish society.

    “But then again, being indifferent to something like genocide makes you just as guilty as those who commit it in my opinion.”
     

    Exactly!  Now we’re getting somewhere!

  450. I agree with Boyajian with her comments to RVDV being an ethnic Kurd & no nomad but considering himself as a Turk.I’m confused.Does RVDV mean a Turkish citizen or a national of Turkey?
    Funny enough,today went shopping to a local store & the cashier was a Kurd from Marash.Once he knew that I was an Armenian he opened up & told me that his forefathers had massacred us together with the Turks.HE APOLOGISED to me & ending the conversation with ‘NOW TURKS ARE DOING TO US THE KURDS, WHAT WE DID TOGETHER TO THE ARMENIANS’.

  451. Boyajian, VTiger: You must have missed my Dec. 8 post. RVDV and Karekin are one and the same.
    That’s where the confusion comes in. I hope this clears away some of the fog. This is a good example of why focusing on the supposed ethnic identity of the poster leads nowhere and why it is best to stick to the issues and not pursue the personnalities. This forum has become a playground for some.  

  452. Diran: I agree that focusıng on ethnıc identity leads nowhere. However I can assure you I only post under one name- contrary to what you may belıve I do have better thıngs to do than have fun on this sıte by usıng two names.

  453. Boyajıan:

    World power referred to the Ottoman Empıre at its peak not Turkey. Sorry I didnt clarıfy.

  454. I’m glad you agree about the futility of focusing on ethnic identity. Will I notice you placing less importance on it in your future posts? And–I don’t consider your saying you have better things to do a direct denial that you have adopted more than one screen name. 
     

  455. RVDV: My apologies. You did directly deny using more than one name. I am still not convinced.

  456. Diran: please enlıghten me as to what I have denied.

  457. RVDV, ruthless avarice and arrogance brought the Ottoman Empire to its height, a massive feat to be sure.  But it didn’t last.  How could it?  Oppression always creates a backlash eventually.   The Ottoman and CUP response to that backlash is what we Armenians still feel reverberating today.

    What do you find admirable RVDV?  You are a student of history.  Dig deep. 

  458. To “RVDV”: I am saying that you deny that you are also “Karekin”. My conclusion that you and “Karekin” are the same person was sparked by my comparison of the style of language in the first post by “Karekin” on the Dec. 8th page and the post by RVDV which immediately follows on the same page. There are certain characteristic “Karekinian” phrases in the latter.  The disguise wore thin. That’s all I will say.
     

  459. Diran, interesting observation regarding split personalities.  I was thinking RVDV was the reincarnation of another frequent poster to this site.  Who knows.

    Main thing is to focus on issues, not personalities or nationalities, as you say. 

  460. regarding your Dec 8 Post Diran: … it is clear that he and Karekin are the same person’.
    After carefully reviewing both Dec 8 posts, I see no evidence that Karekin and RVDV  are the same person.
    There are some superficial similarities. However,  I am quite sure there are two different posters.
     
     
    On the other hand, while re-reading your post, this one sentence caught my attention:  ‘It would be great if intelligent Armenians and Turks could use this forum as a civilized meeting ground for bringing the day of Turkey’s acknowldedgment of its role in the Armenian Genocide closer rather than filling the air with dust and driving reasonable and HONEST voices away.’
    I am pretty sure you are attempting to  convey a positive message, but it is well hidden –at least to me.
    Could you please expound on the specific sentences I have highlighted:
     
     
    It would be great if intelligent Armenians and Turks…’:
    I believe there  actually are several intelligent Armenians and Turks regularly posting and using this forum.
    With rare exceptions, and the exceptions being mostly from the other side, the discourse is quite civilized. Intelligent Armenian posters factually, firmly, but politely challenge intelligent Turk Denialists.  So, I don’t understand what is it you think we  are missing here. Would you prefer that  Armenian posters not  challenge AG Denialists ?
     
     
    ‘and driving reasonable and HONEST voices away’.
    Well, I am not sure which reasonable and HONEST voice(poster)  has been drive away from @AW: can you please name some names ?
    There are several Armenian ‘regulars’ who, I am quite certain, are both reasonable and honest: they are still here.
    Who is it that you are referring to when you say were “driven away”.

  461. Agree with Boyajian to RVDV… i second that Boyajian jan… well said..

  462. Boyajian: Well of course there are parts in Ottoman history that I wish never happened. There are many parts of Ottoman history I am not proud of, but like all colonial powers the Ottoman empire didn’t have a clean history. Unfortunately, to become a world power- you often have to be ruthless and barbaric. Yes, the Ottomans did this, but don’t single them out as if they were the only ones or the most ruthless. As you say, it didn’t last. It couldn’t have lasted, you can oppress and murder people for only so long until they say enough.

  463. RVDV, read more carefully please.  I am not singling out the Turks for ruthlessness in empire building.  I am asking you to account for what you find admirable other than the extent of empire building.  You said it.  Here’s your chance to explain it.

    I am saying that the Ottoman and CUP response to the demise of that empire is what we Armenians still feel reverberating today.   They may not have been the only government to engage in genocide, but the Turks have yet to pay for one of the worst the world has seen.

    And for that, I am definitely singling them out. 

  464. Boyajian: I hope you can see that I am advocating genocide recognition here. With that in mind, why isn’t the rest of the world pressuring Spain on genocide recognition and reparations? They killed around 100 million indigenous Americans, destroyed their culture and language, and yet there are many who still claim this is not genocide. Who is France to pass moral judgement on Turkey- when FRANCE itself denies genocide in the War of Vendee to this day? Do you get a pass if you are European, Rich, and Christian? That’s why I’m angry. That’s like Erdogan calling Simon Peres a baby killer when Turkish soldiers are killing Kurds every day kind of hypocrisy.
     
    These are some of the French reasons for Vendee not being genocide:
     
    (1) The war was not fought against Vendeans but Royalist Vendeans, the government relied on the support of Republican Vendeans;
    (2) the Convention ended the campaign after the Royalist Army was clearly defeated – if the aim was genocide, then they would have continued and easily exterminated the population;
    (3) Fails to inform the reader of atrocities committed by Royalist against Republicans in the Vendée;
    (4) Repeats stories now known to be folkloric myths as fact; 
    (5) Does not refer to the wide range of estimates of deaths suffered by both sides, and that casualties were not “one-sided”; and more.
     
    Anyone else see the similarities between their idiotic rationale for Vendee not being genocide being quite similar to Turkey’s equally idiotic rationale for denying Armenian genocide? ESPECIALLY number 5.?

  465. RVDV- but Erdogan is a hypocrite… He condems the killings of Flotilla and then demans an apology and reparations for such acts but yet he REFUSES to accept and recognize the Armenian Genocide.. so i am sorry but i could care less if you or Erdogan is angry because France decided to make it punishable to deny the Genocide.. France can do whatever they want.. if Turkey has a problem with France, then let them submit their complaint but don’t come here and act like France has NO RIGHT to pass such law… how come Turkey did not go nuts when the law about Halacoust past?? Is not that considered being selective?

  466. RVDV- we are not here to discuss other Genocides (as horrible and as barbaric they may have been.. ).. The discussion is about the Armenian Genocide and France passing the law to punish those who deny the GEnocide… … lets stick to that.. stop bringing other matters, comparisons, reasons, ect… that is why I get frustrated.. I understand you are trying your best to understand the reasons, circumstances, the history but sometimes you say things that makes no sense.. not to us at least who know every tactic, every avenue nationalist Turks use to deter from the ACTUAL point of discussion… just my own thought..

  467. RVDV, perhaps France has a skeleton or two to explore in their own closet.  However, this does not disqualify them from having the right to outlaw the denial of a genocide they have already come to the conclusion, as a nation, was indeed a genocide. This law is consistent with France’s previous policy on the Armenian genocide.  They are within their rights to pursue this.  

    You being angry over France calling a spade a spade and bringing up the War of Vendee is like a child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar crying foul because his brother already got away with eating the cookie he took.   The fact that other nations may or may not have faced their own history doesn’t give Turkey a pass on facing hers.  The Armenian Genocide is an acknowledged fact that awaits justice and I welcome France’s support of this goal.  

    Yes, I acknowledge that you support genocide recognition.  But Turkey continues to play the denial game.  Are you willing to really stand for truth?  Are you willing to concede that France has a right to make such a law within her own country which is consistent with her acknowledged position on the historical truth of the Armenian Genocide?  Are you willing to support those who stand against denial of genocide, recognizing the harm to the victims done by such denial? 

    If France has some reckoning to do with regard to the Vendee, so be it, but these are separate issues.
     

  468. RVDV asks:
     
    “…why isn’t the rest of the world pressuring Spain on genocide recognition and reparations?”
     
    Because Spanish Conquistadors’ acts at colonization of the Americas don’t fit the definition of genocide as in the 1948 UN Genocide Convention: “genocide means any of the following acts (killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, etc.) committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”.  The primary intent of the Spanish Conquistadors, as you know, was not to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, but imports and exports of valuable goods. Whereas the primary intent of the Turkish Ittihadists was to physically annihilate their Armenian countrymen.
     
    “They [Conquistadors] killed around 100 million indigenous Americans, destroyed their culture and language…”
     
    Debates still go on if the total population of the Americas was anywhere such an incredible figure. The range is from as high as 140 million to as low as 8 million people in the Western hemisphere at the time. Even if we hypothetically take the highest point: 140 million people, most of whom were, as you claim, killed by the Spaniards, don’t you think it’s impracticable that just thousands of Conquistadors could kill 100 million people? The problem with your number (aside from the question of whether there were even this many people in the Western hemisphere at all) is that you conveniently avoid differentiating between death by massacre and death by disease. Most modern scholars believe that epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the Native Americans because of their lack of immunity to new diseases brought from Europe.  To your knowledge, were there such epidemic diseases brought by the Ittihadists to their Armenian countrymen?

  469. Today, 1915 was mentioned in Turkish Parliament by a parliament member for the very first time, if I am not mistaken.

    http://www.habermonitor.com/en/haber/detay/88736/parliament-39massacre39-tension

  470. Mehmed:  I sense you used the ‘Translate’ tool for an originally Turkish text, hence poor and at times incomprehensible English. Could you share in your own words what happened in the Turkish Parliament? Thanks.

  471. ‘.. not to us at least who know every tactic, every avenue nationalist Turks use to deter from the ACTUAL point of discussion… just my own thought..’ Right you are, Gayane.


    An old standby Denialist technique:  dilute the uniqueness and significance of the Armenian Genocide; throw in every massacre, atrocity, mass-murder – and conflate it with the AG. Reminiscent of the “Bulgarian Turks” that Ragnar slyly injected into the thread. 

    As Mr. Harut Sassounian relates, some years ago when Turks were outright denying the AG, an American who was visiting, told the Turks that they are pursuing  a dead end by blanket denial. So he advised them to change their approach: “Don’t deny it: say, yeah, a tragedy happened, but everybody, suffered; Turks also suffered; and it was not Genocide, just a terrible  tragedy” (paraphrased).

    This conflating of the AG with other – completely unrelated –  human tragedies all over the world is part of the same program. Since the “no genocide, just a tragedy” routine is being exposed as fraud and losing effectiveness, the next stage is apparently to drag the whole world in: Everything is a Genocide -so nothing is a Genocide.

  472. Paul: Biological warfare. They did it on purpose after seeing the people had no immunity (small pox blankets, etc).Replace Spain in that context with Ottoman Empire, would it then still not be considered genocide?
    Gayane: I also called Erdogan a hypocrite so I agree.
    Boyajian: France can make any law it wants to- good for them, but making it a crime to deny it seems a little extreme.

  473. RVDV, yet it is their right to be extreme if they choose.  Personally, I don’t like the idea of limiting free speech, but in some cases I think a society has the right to say “No way!”   In this case, telling genocide deniers that they can’t deny it, is a way of acknowledging that denial of the genocide is harmful to the victims.   It is a way of telling genocide deniers that the ‘gig is up.’    Most modern countries limit lying (eg. slander and libel) even while practicing freedom of speech.   How is this different?

    You want extreme?  What about the ridiculous Article 301 in Turkey which punishes “insulting Turkey?”

  474. Correction:  “jig is up”


  475. RVDV these are your words:

    ” Unfortunately, to become a world power- you often have to be ruthless and barbaric. Yes, the Ottomans did this, but don’t single them out as if they were the only ones or the most ruthless. As you say, it didn’t last. It couldn’t have lasted, you can oppress and murder people for only so long until they say enough.”

    Isn’t France just saying ,“Enough!”  and Turkey in all its arrogance, is crying foul on any attempt to limit it.

    And wouldn’t this all be unnecessary if Turkey simply admitted to its history and apologized?

    As someone who acknowledges the genocide, why does it bother you if France, as a sovereign nation, decides that, within her sovereign borders, she will not tolerate the denial of this genocide?  I welcome France taking the moral high ground on this issue.  You should too, or you are being hypocritical.

  476. avatar Random Armenian // December 20, 2011 at 10:11 am // Reply

    Avery,
    Do you have Sassounian article? Is the identity of this American known?
    http://armenianweekly.com/2009/11/08/gunaysu-kurdish-mp-challenges-turkish-parliament-on-armenian-genocide/

  477. Random, it was not an article. I heard Mr. Sassounian  discuss the man on 2 or 3 occasions   on an Armenian language TV program here on the West Coast. They sit around for an hour an discuss political issues.  He did not give a name or the profession of the man. Just that he was American.

  478. Turks and their friends who are complaining about the Criminalization bill, about “freedom of speech”, about “restriction of academic freedom” and all the other quote-unquote freedoms: the same sort of bill criminalizing the Denial of Jewish Holocaust has been Law in France since 1990. Did you Turks object to that law to when it was passed ?

    German-Canadian Ernst Zündel spent 3 years in jail in Germany for denying the Jewish Holocaust (he wrote a book). I don’t remember Turks complaining about “freedom of speech” then. Does anyone ?
     

  479. Sure, Paul. Sirri Sakik, a Kurdish parliament member, mentioned 1915 by saying “Turks used to do massacres on Armenians, then Jews and Kurds”. There was a big tension afterwards, but Sirri Sakik didn’t take his words back. Afterwards, a Turkish minister said “this is problem of consicousness, anyone who has consciousness cannot say that Turkey did a genocide.”. Of course, as now the gin is out, they should explain how the rate of non-muslim minorities went from more than 10%s to 0.01%s. Otherwise they will be classified as “people without consciousness”, as th minister stated in his speech. 

  480. Boyajian: Good points as usual. You are right, France has every right to say “enough” and true, all of this could have been behind us if Turkey could have just accepted it already. They say time heals all wounds, but until there is genocide recognition I believe the wound will still be raw – only after recognition and reparations can there be healing. All I am saying is why is France so intent on recognizing Armenian genocide when they, to this day still deny a genocide they committed. Until you come to terms with your own past, you can’t be on any moral high ground to judge others for the same exact crime- in my opinion.

  481. As someone who acknowledges the genocide, why does it bother you if France, as a sovereign nation, decides that, within her sovereign borders, she will not tolerate the denial of this genocide?  I welcome France taking the moral high ground on this issue.  You should too, or you are being hypocritical.  Thank you Boyajian.. very well said.. that was on my thought as well and you read my mind..:)

  482. RVDV:  It is hard to imagine that the Spaniards used biological warfare ‘on purpose’ in the 16th century, when there was no such a technology at all. The Spaniards brought small pox, chicken pox, and measles naturally, not in test tubes. Exposure of the locals to these diseases caused many more fatalities than the wars themselves, because the diseases moved much faster than the advancing Spanish. When the Conquistadors arrived in the Incan empire, most of the population had already died in a smallpox epidemic. I cannot replace the Spanish empire with the Ottoman empire in the context of genocide, because the intent of the Spanish Conquest of the Americas was not to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, but imports of goods. The intent of the Ottoman empire under the CUP was to vacate its eastern provinces of native Armenians by means of their physical annihilation.

  483. For the record, I have no idea who RVDV is and that poster has no connection to me whatsoever. 

    As for Paul…yes, the Spanish did have an intent to eliminate the natives and it was genocide by design, not accident. However, that was 500 years ago, and Spain eventually granted every country in the new world independence. In the modern era, Turkey has the distinction of conducting the first true genocidal plan on its own territory, against its own citizens…some of whom are still alive to tell the tale first hand.   

  484. As for Karekin… no, my fantasizing friend, the intent of the Spanish Conquistadors was not to eliminate the American natives either by design or by accident.  The intent of the Conquistadors was colonial expansion through trade and import of valuable goods to Spain, as well as the spread of the Christian faith through indigenous conversions.  Every history book will tell you so, I assume even the one published in Turkey.

  485. ‘yes, the Spanish did have an intent to eliminate the natives and it was genocide by design, not accident.’ How do you know, Karekin ?  any sources you can cite ?

    Your claim makes no sense: why would Spaniards want to exterminate the indigenous populations ? Spaniards were not looking for land.  Even if they were, the Americas was sparely populated. Why expend valuable gunpowder and resources uselessly ? 
    (I live in the US: even today with 310 million Americans, US is mostly empty land, even on the valuable coastlines, at least on the West coast)

    Spaniards were looking for gold, commodities, wealth, goods to take back.  Possibly free hands  to work the land.  Maintain their haciendas. Why would they need to exterminate free labor ? They had superior firepower and easily subdued any resistance. After initial encounters with firearms and horses, the locals were totally cowed and subdued.
    The Spanish invaders had a mandate to spread the Christian Faith amongst the “heathen”: not exterminate them.
    There is no record of Spanish Royalty giving instructions to their men to exterminate anyone. 
     
    Sorry pal, you’re back to the same old, same old: “everybody committed Genocide, so AG was just another one in the series: no biggie” , “it was a long time ago”, “time to move on” , “500 years, 100 years, Native Americans, Armenians, what’s the difference”. 


     

  486. Avery jan- well said…

  487. avatar Random Armenian // December 20, 2011 at 11:46 pm // Reply

    Avery,
    Thanks. I’d love to know who this person is and his motivation.

  488. Avery, Paul:
     
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm
    European extermination of Natives started with Christopher Columbus’ arrival in San Salvador in 1492. Native population dropped dramatically over the next few decades. Some were directly murdered by Europeans. Others died indirectly as a result of contact with introduced diseases for which they had no resistance — mainly smallpox, influenza, and measles.
    Later European Christian invaders systematically murdered additional Aboriginal people, from the Canadian Arctic to South America. They used warfare, death marches, forced relocation to barren lands, destruction of their main food supply — the Buffalo — and poisoning. Some Europeans actually shot at Indians for target practice. 14
    Oppression continued into the 20th century, through actions by governments and religious organizations which systematically destroyed Native culture and religious heritage. One present-day byproduct of this oppression is suicide. Today, Canadian Natives have the highest suicide rate of any identifiable population group in the world. Native North Americans are not far behind.
    The genocide against American Natives was one of the most massive, and longest lasting genocidal campaigns in human history. It started, like all genocides, with the oppressor treating the victims as sub-humans. It continued until almost all Natives were wiped of the face of the earth, along with much of their language, culture and religion.
     
    how about this http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html— Can we agree MIT is a legit source?
     

    The 1492 “voyage of discovery” is, however, hardly all that is
    at issue. In 1493 Columbus returned with an invasion force of
    seventeen ships, appointed at his own request by the Spanish Crown to
    install himself as “viceroy and governor of [the Caribbean islands]
    and the mainland” of America, a position he held until
    1500. Setting up shop on the large island he called Espa–ola (today
    Haiti and the Dominican Republic), he promptly instituted policies of
    slavery (encomiendo) and systematic extermination against the native
    Taino population. Columbus’s programs reduced Taino numbers from as
    many as eight million at the outset of his regime to about three
    million in 1496. Perhaps 100,000 were left by the time of the
    governor’s departure. His policies, however, remained, with the
    result that by 1514 the Spanish census of the island showed barely
    22,000 Indians remaining alive. In 1542, only two hundred were
    recorded. Thereafter, they were considered extinct, as were Indians
    throughout the Caribbean Basin, an aggregate population which totaled
    more than fifteen million at the point of first contact with the
    Admiral of the Ocean Sea, as Columbus was known….

    “everybody committed Genocide, so AG was just another one in the series: no biggie”

    Thats not what I’m saying at all, but yes, a lot of people did commit genocide. I’m surprised
    at you Avery and Paul- I wouldn’t have expected you two to protect the Spanish.

  489. I ran across this recently. I think it aptly describes the genocide resolution in the US.
     
    “The Armenian Genocide resolution is a proper test for American democracy. It will uncover priorities of the United States – good relations with Turkey or historical truth”, Russian State Duma member, Konstantin Zatulin told a news conference in Yerevan on 21 October 2007

  490. In 1493, when Columbus returned to the Hispaniola, he quickly implemented policies of slavery and mass extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years, five million were dead. Las Casas, the primary historian of the Columbian era, writes of many accounts of the horrors that the Spanish colonists inflicted upon the indigenous population: hanging them en mass, hacking their children into pieces to be used as dog feed, and other horrid cruelties. The works of Las Casas are often omitted from popular American history books and courses because Columbus is considered a hero by many, even today.
    Mass killing did not cease, however, after Columbus departed. Expansion of the European colonies led to similar genocides. “Indian Removal” policy was put into action to clear the land for white settlers. Methods for the removal included slaughter of villages by the military and also biological warfare. High death rates resulted from forced marches to relocate the Indians.
    The Removal Act of 1830 set into motion a series of events which led to the “Trail of Tears” in 1838, a forced march of the Cherokees, resulting in the destruction of most of the Cherokee population.” The concentration of American Indians in small geographic areas, and the scattering of them from their homelands, caused increased death, primarily because of associated military actions, disease, starvation, extremely harsh conditions during the moves, and the resulting destruction of ways of life.
    During American expansion into the western frontier, one primary effort to destroy the Indian way of life was the attempts of the U.S. government to make farmers and cattle ranchers of the Indians. In addition, one of the most substantial methods was the premeditated destructions of flora and fauna which the American Indians used for food and a variety of other purposes. We now also know that the Indians were intentionally exposed to smallpox by Europeans. The discovery of gold in California, early in 1848, prompted American migration and expansion into the west. The greed of Americans for money and land was rejuvenated with the Homestead Act of 1862. In California and Texas there was blatant genocide of Indians by non-Indians during certain historic periods. In California, the decrease from about a quarter of a million to less than 20,000 is primarily due to the cruelties and wholesale massacres perpetrated by the miners and early settlers. Indian education began with forts erected by Jesuits, in which indigenous youths were incarcerated, indoctrinated with non-indigenous Christian values, and forced into manual labor. These children were forcibly removed from their parents by soldiers and many times never saw their families until later in their adulthood. This was after their value systems and knowledge had been supplanted with colonial thinking. One of the foundations of the U.S. imperialist strategy was to replace traditional leadership of the various indigenous nations with indoctrinated “graduates” of white “schools,” in order to expedite compliance with U.S. goals and expansion.
    Probably one of the most ruinous acts to the Indians was the disappearance of the buffalo. For the Indians who lived on the Plains, life depended on the buffalo. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, there were an estimated forty million buffalo, but between 1830 and 1888 there was a rapid, systematic extermination culminating in the sudden slaughter of the only two remaining Plain herds. By around 1895, the formerly vast buffalo populations were practically extinct. The slaughter occurred because of the economic value of buffalo hides to Americans and because the animals were in the way of the rapidly westward expanding population. The end result was widescale starvation and the social and cultural disintegration of many Plains tribes.
     
     
    Just search Spanish genocide or Spanish genocide of Native Americans on google and see how many millions of results pop up. The intent was not genocide- well if the intent wasn’t genocide, I’d hate to see what would have happened if they INTENDED to kill native Americans.

  491. Please read the here below.I’ve copied only 2 paragraphs of an article by Mr. Yavuz Baydar titled ‘Taking History Hostage’ published on 2012:
    One can truly understand the grandchildren of Ottoman Armenians if they feel content about the upcoming bill in Paris. They have been waiting simply too long for a simple recognition of the grand crime of humanity committed upon the orders of the militarist triumvirate — Enver, Talat and Cemal Pashas — which by majestic idiocy not only caused a huge human tragedy but also demolished an empire. The least Ankara can and must do is reach out to Armenians all over and tell them that what these three enemies of humanity and their henchmen did amounts to a crime and express a belated regret or, better, an apology.
    But it cannot. For those still wondering why, I advise reading the article by Markar Esayan in this newspaper titled “Why is it difficult to confront 1915?” So at the moment, all we hope is to see that day come in order to stop, as Vaclav Havel said, “a lie to produce another lie.”
     http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-266260-taking-history-hostage.html
     All Genocide denialists: A lie produces another lie. Sleep tight.

  492. ‘Thats not what I’m saying at all,’ sure you are RVDV. It’s a tired old technique I have seen time and again from Turk Denialists: conflate everything with the AG, so that it can be diluted, and eventually dissolve into the great caldron of killings that has plagued humankind since its appearance on Earth. Because pretending “AG did not happen” has not worked for the Turks, this is the new approach. Another standby is this “Well, what about what you Americans did to the Natives American”. Well, yeah what about it ? What do Armenians have to do with what White European invaders did to  Native Americans ?

    Regarding the Spanish: neither my nor Paul’s post defends what the Spaniards did.
    And I not going to continue on that path: this is not going to be another sly insertion of of “Bulgarian Turks”. 

    You and Karekin want to discuss other Genocides, go to a Jewish site and bring it up there. Conflate everything with the JH; see how far you get.  Or better yet, start a new “Genocides”  site and invite everyone to discuss all the atrocities in the world.

     

     

  493. maybe RVDV and Karekin, who are so keenly interested in genocides going back to 500 years, can continue on an additional  500. The centuries long genocides (by your definition) that  invading Seljuk Turks unleashed on indigenous  Armenians when they invaded Armenian Highlands around 1000 AD. Then continuing their genocidal sweep of Greeks, Assyrians and other indigenous populations on their genocidal march to Constantinople.

  494. as VTiger noted, Turks have gone all out in their Denialist hysteria.
    TodaysZaman and Hurriyet are filled past few days with articles and editorials attacking  the Genocide Denial Bill. 

    They have even terrorized Turkahyes into making public statements against the French bill. In addition to Markar Esayan that VTiger noted above, Turks have pressed into their Denialist service the following hostages:  ETYEN MAHÇUPYAN, Patriarch Mesrob Mutafyan, Orhan Dink (Hrant’s brother). 

    Some of you may remember the disgusting episode about 20 years ago when Saddam paraded a British hostage  family, including  2 little boys, on Iraqi TV in a thinly veiled threat to prevent the first Gulf war attack on him.

    How long before Turks start parading Turkahye children on TV ? 

  495. Love love love.. apres Avery jaaaaaaaaaannnnnnn.. shat lav asetsir…

  496. VTiger- AMEN TO THAT my friend.. AMEN..

  497. RVDV- i believe i already expressed this before in my previous post.. WE, as in Armenians DO NOT want to discuss other Genocides on this forum..

    As my friend Avery said, just like Bulgarian Genocide brought up by another Turkophile, The spaniord Crusades/genocide is just another way to deter everyone from what is being discussed.. and that is: OTTOMAN TURKS GENOCIDE of THE WESTERN AND EASTERN ARMENIANS..please cease from briging up other issues …   Also, I agree with Avery.. if you and Karekin and every other Turkophile and Denialists want to discuss other GEnocides please do create a commission/group OUTSIDE OF this forum and discuss at your hearts content… but don’t mix and match what happened to my ancestors with others…

    Thank you 

  498. RVDV:  Copy-and-paste method from a dubious online publication is not the wisest way of maintaining dialogue. No one defends what the Spaniards and, more so, the diseases they naturally brought, did to the Native Americans, but however hard you copy and paste, at the end of the day what you do is you dance around the central point: Spanish Conquistadors did not arrive to the Americas in the 16th century with the intent to ‘destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’. Their primary intent was colonial expansion through trade and the spread of Christianity through indigenous conversions. You risk making yourself a laughingstock proving the yoghurt’s black.
     
    What’s deplorable is your attempt to juxtapose events unrelated to what your own ancestors have done to native peoples of Asia Minor, the Middle East, and the Balkans. It looks cheap, I’m sorry to say, when someone attempts, as Avery put it, to dissolve his co-ethnics’ crime ‘into the great caldron of killings’ ever committed by the mankind. The mankind has defined genocide legally back in 1948 (based, by the way, on mass extermination of Armenians and Jews). Genocide is the instance whenever there’s intent to kill a national group. Turks undeniably had such intent with regard to Armenians back in 1915-23.
     
    Consider also colonial wars in which colonizers and natives clash (as between the Spaniards vs. the Incans, Aztecs, etc.) and forced deportation into sunny Syrian deserts and mass physical annihilation of Armenian countrymen by their own government. How’s that for you?

  499. No Avery, I’m not in the group that says everybody committed genocide. Far from it, and I would never dispute that the Ottoman Empire and the CUP engaged in a deliberate act of genocide against Armenians. That was their goal. No question about it. Remnants of their evil legacy survive in Turkey to this day, and is a scourge on Turkey.

    As for knowing whether or not there was genocide in the new world, have you ever read the treatises of Bartolomeo de las Casas?  If not, you should. He offers a very good, first hand account of what happened:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomé_de_las_Casas 

     

  500. avatar Random Armenian // December 22, 2011 at 12:07 am // Reply

    gayane,
    “i believe i already expressed this before in my previous post.. WE, as in Armenians DO NOT want to discuss other Genocides on this forum..”
    Is this the policy of the Armenian Weekly editorial staff? I’d like to hear from them since they run this forum. I also don’t remember voting you as a spokeswoman for Armenians in this forum.
    A blanket policy of not discussing other genocides strikes me as short sighted. There could be legitimate reasons to discuss the others with respect to ours. I personally don’t see a problem with it considering how other genocides are discussed by the world, and ours it not included on the list! Also, I think it would help us Armenians to understand other genocides. I think we’ll find that there is something unique in how all genocides went down.

  501. I am quoting Avery:
    Turks and their friends who are complaining about the Criminalization bill, about “freedom of speech”, about “restriction of academic freedom” and all the other quote-unquote freedoms: the same sort of bill criminalizing the Denial of Jewish Holocaust has been Law in France since 1990. Did you Turks object to that law to when it was passed ? Unquote
    For decades Turkey had & still has the famous article 301 & others.Turkish Criminalisation is acceptable but French one is not… What a mockery…

  502. Avery,I have a question:for a very long time now,when I comment on TDZ,only 5-6 words of mine are published out of the lot.I tried writing first & then pasting but again no success.I even tried with different computers to no avail.Does it happen same with you?Do you have a solution?As for Hurriyet,they’ve sort of banned me for ages now…
     

  503. The link to Bartolomé de las Casas’ life and work as Protector of the Indians only reaffirms what everyone knows: in the process of colonial expansion through trade and the spread of Christianity through indigenous conversions, the Spanish Conquistadors did commit atrocities against the native peoples of the Americas. However, committing atrocities with the aim to destroy the indigenous peoples as a national, ethnical, racial and religious group was not the motivation that brought the Spanish colonizers to the Americas in the 16th century nor was it their intent during the centuries of colonization nor was it technically practicable to accomplish with thousands of Conquistadors vs. tens of millions of Indians.

    The Ittihadists’ premeditated and executed state policy against indigenous Armenians in 1915-23 pursued no other goal but their deliberate destruction as a national, ethnical, racial and religious group.

  504. VTiger, regarding the TDZ: I have not had any issues of sentences being cut off. 
    I have done both: short comments typed  in directly and longer ones typed into Word.doc, then copy and paste (easier to check for typos and such). 
    Every so often they do not post a comment but most of my comments get posted.

    The case of parts of your posts disappearing: I doubt it is because of what you have posted. If they don’t like something, they flush the whole post (at least in my case).
    Why would they bother posting only part: easier to flush the whole thing.

    I have noticed certain posts of others (not yours) as well at TDZ that end abruptly mid sentence. The only reason I can think of is technical: their software may have a peculiar bug; maybe the post gets truncated randomly. But since it has never happened to me, I have to ask why not.  The only other thing I can think of is your computer or ISP: try other browsers: I use Firefox for TDN most of the time, Sometimes Chrome. If you have access to other computers, maybe you can experiment. Could be unreliable ISP service between your area and Turkey: different ISPs use different routes/routers to get to destination.

    I don’t post to HDN any more: one can only post a few sentences. Most of my comments got flushed. HDN has always been more of a partisan mouthpiece for the State: any of my posts that were even mildly critical of anything Turkish never saw the light of day. 

  505. Can you be in favor of free speech and at the same time penalize people for free speech & thought? That’s the true dilemma for Turkey, which is why they have no leg to stand on when criticizing France. That said, France has taken a stand on truth, history and the right not to be bullied by lies and fabrications. Maybe now the Turkish neocons will recognize that their fallacies are not supreme? Of course, they will react, but it will only be in defense of their lies, not a truth known by the entire world.

  506. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 22, 2011 at 11:06 am // Reply

    In passing the Bill today at the Assamblee  Nationale of La France,criminalizing denial of the Armenian Genocide  on French territory,many deputies took to  the podium.One such was  Patrick Devedjian, whose very to the point short discourse stripped  to the naked all tries  by Turkish denialsits and or sympathizers  thus:-
    in 1919 their  own ( the Turkish Military Tribunal) indicted and condemned  the responsibles  of the Armenian Genocide.Also see  ¨A Textual  Analysis of the Key Indictment of the Turkish Military TribunalInvestigating the Armenian Genocide.¨
    It is plausible that the French  have today reaffirmed and made  it known globally what transpired  then. This humane  and act   justifies and proves to the civilized  world that  such horrendous crimes  will not remain in the oblivion, to say the least.
    Let  us hope  that at long last the world -that ows justice to Armenians-will respond one by (countries ) joining  this latest  initiative  by France and pick up the challenge.
    Next in line  definitely are  neighbour  states,close by…. 

  507. Avery thanks.I as well use Firefox.Have tried different computers & since I travel lots,I’ve tried from different countries & always my comments are cut to 5-6 words only.This is forcing me to be more creative & express everything in 6 words.I’ll try & change my name & see what happens.I love your posts of TDZ & keep up the good work.

  508. Karekin,very well said.

  509. Random… you misread my post to RVDV.. please take the entire context vs just that one sentence… I was referring to the whole Spanierds vs Ottomans matter that RVDV brought forth..I was not saying other Genocides are NOT IMPORTANT… I may have been vague in my comment… but hopefully you get it now..

     I just don’t want any nationalist denialists bring up other unrelated killings/Genocides to what we are discussing..THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. This form is not a forum where they can hash out which Genocide is worth discussing and should be discussed..and dilute the actual discussion… they can create another forum for that…and when one brings up an issue of why we don’t concentrate and condemn others for carrying out GEnocides that does not relate to what we are discussing, then yes i will tell them that we are not interested…

    Hope you know that I am not against speaking of other GEnocides…but i am not going to allow one to use other Genocides FOR SOLE purpose of diluting the truth about the ARmenian GEnocide…  

    HOpe I made myself clear 

  510. VTiger- I posted on Today’s Zaman so we will see what happens… as Avery said, they can flash your comment all together and I bet they do.. to make it seem legit, they have a statement on their site.. see below….

    Your comment will shortly be read by the Today’s Zaman Internet editorial team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours. Due to the high volume of emails received by us we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published.  

    Their forum is soo not intuitive.. very hard to follow… guess they are not UP their technology to a level where it is as clear and precise and easy to follow as this forum.. but then what do you expect…. 

  511. Gayane: couple of things..
     
     I just don’t want any nationalist denialists bring up other unrelated killings/Genocides to what we are discussing…
     
    I’m not a Turk, so I can hardly qualify for a Turkish nationalist. However I am FROM Turkey,  and if loving the country I am from makes me a racist nationalist in your eyes, then so be it. I have said from my first post that I want the genocide to be recognized. I never said “events of 1915″ or any of that stuff others do. I called it genocide from day one. You can call me many things- (turcophile, etc.- I don’t care.) but I don’t see how I am a denialist. The only reason I brought up the Spanish and French genocides was to show that other nations who, RIGHTFULLY, condemn Turkey of their genocide denial, have a history of genocide denial themselves. You don’t have to like me, you don’t have to respect me, but please don’t make things up about me- you don’t even know me. I have never defended Turkey’s pathetic attempt genocide denial, nor have I defended article 301 of the constitution that was brought up.

  512. RVDV:  I think I proved convincingly that comparing the Armenian genocide with the atrocities committed by the Spanish Conquistadors during the colonization of the Americas is gibberish. Major difference is the lack of intent to destroy in the case of the Spaniards. Please stop.  If you’re from Turkey and admit that the genocide of Armenians was committed by your barbarian Ittihadist ancestors, then please concentrate solely on Turkey and let a few other genocide-perpetrating nations concentrate on their crimes. Fair deal?  By the way, if you so like to focus on a few other genocides, why won’t you acknowledge that some of the genocide-perpetrators apologized for their crimes and paid reparations to the victims, e.g. Germany?

  513. @RVDV, I understand what you are saying brother.

  514. I don’t see where Gayane called you ‘racist’, RVDV. 

    And we have already discussed the evolution of Denialists thoroughly: it is no longer feasible to outright deny it; that one wore out, and is thoroughly discredited. (read my post about what Mr. Sassounian said). So the denial has become more sophisticated. You may or may not be a denialist: only you know for sure.
    But I have read your posts since you first appeared on this thread. Sorry, but the picture is not clear. 

  515. which article @TZ Gayane ?
     

    • Avery jan.. it was about Erdogan’s complain about France’s vote on the Armenian Genocide Denial Bill…

  516. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 23, 2011 at 12:38 pm // Reply

    Escape from our Site 
    You pen is full of our blood  
    There is no humanity in your heart

    I don’t know
    Why some souls are here
    To teach Us what…? 
    If it was not genocide
    Tell me
    It was what…!?!? 

    It was a dance
    Opening the mother’s womb
    To do C-Section by scimitars
    Enjoying seeing
    Stillborns

    It was a dance and play
    To hurl innocents in the rivers
    In hays 
    Bedouins saw them with their eyes…
    Still narrating to their offsprings
    They know very well it was genocide

    It was a cabaret 
    Enjoying rapes with virgin girls and killing them later…
    Even pakistani soldiers in March 25 1971
    could not do that
    they raped and left without killing… 

    it was a dance 
    To cut their heads with the scimitars 

    It was music to hear their cries …
    Their prayers their chants
     
    God lost his brain to hear all 
    God went mad 
    But devils still singing 
    There was no genocide 

    I no longer believe there is humanity 
    Now i think how the Armenians still living with such criminal race 
    Still denying what they did…
     
    I wish I can enter in your astrocytes 
    and understand
    Who made your genes 
    My god Help me if you’re still above 
    Help those who doesn’t understand
    The psychology of orphans 
    We don’t hate them
    But we want to know what they did 
    This is not denials only 
    This is another crime against humanity…

    Shame on you all awake … You have No heart … No god 

    SP
     

  517. Avery: You may or may not be a denialist: only you know for sure.
     
    I can respect that comment, because you have a point, I have not always been clear with the points I have been trying to get across. I want you and every Armenian poster here to know that my intentions here are not to disrespect anyone or anyone’s ancestors, or deny genocide using sophisticated methods. It was genocide, it was an unjustifiable act of violence perpetrated by my ancestors on innocent people. If my apology means anything to you, I am sorry.
     
    Paul: Not really. The intention initially was not genocide, yes, but it evolved into genocidal acts. There were on and off acts of genocide throughout the Spanish New World, or at the very least, ethnic cleansing. Agree to disagree I suppose. I didn’t think bringing up other genocides would make everyone so angry, I just wanted to get the point across that many people, Turks, French, etc., condemn others of genocide when they haven’t come to terms with their past. My point is, it is easier to point out others faults than to accept your own. If you don’t want to talk about other genocides, I won’t talk about other genocides. You said Germany. If Germany passed this criminalization bill, I would have no complaints. They committed genocide, and had the integrity to apologize, pay reparations, and ask for forgiveness. My government could certainly learn a thing or two from Germany.

  518. RVDV:  Re: “My point is, it is easier to point out others faults than to accept your own.”  If Turkey accepted its own fault, there would have been no need for other questionably flawed nations to point out at Turkey.  Re: The [Spanish] intention initially was not genocide, yes, but it evolved into genocidal acts.”  Not any killings are considered genocidal acts. Read definitions in the Genocide Convention and International Court of Transitional Justice. Spaniards committed atrocities, but they were never aimed at deliberately destroying the ethnic group, neither in the beginning nor in the process nor at the end.

  519. RVDV you said:

     I didn’t think bringing up other genocides would make everyone so angry, I just wanted to get the point across that many people, Turks, French, etc., condemn others of genocide when they haven’t come to terms with their past. 

    I get your point.  You are right.  Many nations have committed atrocities against others throughout history and have yet to come to terms with their history.

    I hope you are also getting the Armenian point.  Turkey has used every trick in the book to deny this crime and avoid justice for almost 100 years.  One of the more modern incarnations is this effort to say all nations have a ‘past’ and try to minimize what Turkey did.  We are always ready to defend against such ploys because we have to be.  For us the genocide is not over; it has simply morphed into an assault on truth.  It seeks to undermine our identity and our right to justice and to condemn us into oblivion through assimilation.

    However, the day of reckoning for Turkey keeps coming closer.  This most recent vote  in France is only one indicator, among many, that the tide is turning.  Your participation in this forum and your acknowledgment of the genocide is another.  Armenians have been badly injured as a nation but we have fought to survive against great odds.   After a genocide that removed us from our homeland, after 70 years of Sovietization, and 100 years of diasporan existence, we are still here and still Armenian.  Turkey needs to recognize that we will not disappear no matter how many different ways she tries to minimize our claims.  Justice will come.

    It takes courage to come to terms with this history.  I give you credit for beginning this journey and I hope you and those like you in Turkey will be safe.

  520. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 24, 2011 at 12:37 am // Reply

    Please, for the readers and writers on this site who are defending their democratic Turkey…
    Let them help million of Armenians who are turkified and lost their identity
    Like lawyer Fatheia Cetin and others
    Help them…Let them treat their tension. 
    I feel lucky that i don’t live in Turkey…I don’t walk on bones of my ancestries…
    As Arab poet Al Miar’ri wrote his famous stanza…almost one millennium before.

    As Armenians…We are free where ever we are
    We are respected, loved, praised
    They look at honest dedicate talented people…helping every one…

    So please…If you are good Turkish citizens
    forget our site and help those who need your help …urgently
    Help to return their lost identity …
    Help to open their schools…speak their mothers tongue… 
    Help them to pray in their churches, which was confiscated by your grandfathers…
    They don’t need money … They are asking for their identity … They are still orphans… 

    You can never teach us to change our attitudes
    Because our homes was build on the stories of genocide…
    Every day we heard a new story…
    Still I hear new ones after almost a century
    How many Bedouins married Armenian orphans …
    They called them Mariam (Mary…Jesus’s mother’s name) because they were Christians…
    See how the Arabs respected Armenians…decades ago…
    they were non-educated but born with principles (shahama: Arabic word)
    not to hurt their religion, their identity…
     
    Even our girls reached Saudi Arabia…
    And now their grandchildren are proud to say they had Armenian grandmothers…
    They say they were beautiful dedicated organized and clean…loving kind…
    Always they tell me “Dr. she looked like you”.

    While you see your president Abdullah Gul refuses to confess that his mother Advia:Adawiya in Arabic (nee Satoglu) is Armenian and he jailed the journalist who wrote the story for 11 months.
    Also Erdugan’s wife is Kurdish and he kill Kurds…tomorrow his children will be against him…nothing can be hidden under the sky…the sun will rise always…

    See the deference between Arab Muslims who are proud about having some Armenian genes and the Turks (who are Muslims by name only) and keeps denying their ethnicity, and not only denies, but jails the person who copied the information from an M.P of CHP (Canan Aritman)…and who gave that information was Gul’s father-in-law…

    Differential diagnosis is important not only in medicine but in every subject…
    to reach conclusion to diagnose and treat…any problem any illness. 
    Turks they don’t know how to diagnose their mental problem they keep shouting…
    stay zealous…they want to sigh with their sick mind…refusing reality…
    refusing that they carry few criminal genes which should be treated urgently…

    Sylva
    December 24, 2011 

     

  521. The point is, we CAN openly talk about Spanish genocide in the new world, here and in Spain, without being penalized for being anti-Spanish. We CAN talk about slavery in America, without being seen as anti-American or thrown in jail or fined. We can talk about Belgian atrocities in the Congo, too, without fear, or apartheid in South Africa. But, in Turkey, even a winner of the Nobel Prize cannot mention the genocide openly, without being threatened by the deep state. This is the problem Turkey refuses to see and pretends does not exist. If you want a level and honest playing field, then set an example and do it yourself first. 

  522. Karekin: There’s no historical event such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”. There’s also no legal definition such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”. Spaniards were not motivated either before or at their arrival to the Americas to deliberately destroy the Incas or Aztecs as a race. Atrocities and wars did take place in the process as they’d occur elsewhere where colonization, on the one hand, and resistance to it, on the other, collide. Neither the Spanish conquest nor the slavery in America nor Belgian atrocities in the Congo fit definitions of genocide as in the UN Genocide Convention and ICTJ. Enough already.

    • Paul: Did Karekin call what Americans and Belgians did genocide? No.

      There’s no historical event such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”.

      One of the most important yet highly disputed pieces of information regarding the intentional ethnocide of indigenous populations in the Americas was possible intentional use of disease as a biological weapon, which was first posited by British forces under the command of Jeffery Amherst

      Some historians argue that genocide, a crime of intent, was not the intent of European colonization while in America. The Reverend Stafford Poole, a Catholic priest, wrote: “There are other terms to describe what happened in the Western Hemisphere, but genocide is not one of them. It is a good propaganda term in an age where slogans and shouting have replaced reflection and learning, but to use it in this context is to cheapen both the word itself and the appalling experiences of the Jews and Armenians, to mention but two of the major victims of this century.”

      You cannot say “There’s no historical event such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”.

      Was there genocide, many people say yes, many people say no- you can find strong evidence to support each view. It is a grey area.

    • If wikipedia can’t give that question a definitive answer, no one can lol.

  523. Very astute comment Karekin!

    Thank you Armenian weekly for the redesigned site. I like it.

    Merry Christmas to all!

  524. RVDV- you simply went off tangent… where did I call you racist??? i am confused… however, what you bring forth may be legit to show what other countries have done but like Paul and Avery explained Spaniards never DID have an intent to wipe out an entire nation based on race, religion, etc..etc.. etc.. no need to repeat the same thing over and over..

  525. RVDV: Wikipedia is the most unreliable source of information, because anyone can edit/alter it. If I were you, I wouldn’t base my arguments on this dubious source but look, rather, into how genocide (including the AG) is defined, for example, by the International Center for Transitional Justice. I’ll repeat it for the last time and stop, but you may go on repeating the mantra of “Spanish genocide in the new world”. Most scholars believe that the overwhelming cause of the deaths of aborigines was epidemic disease and not the intentional destruction of the local population based on national, ethnical, racial, or religious origin. It was not the intent of the conquest of the Americas nor such intent ever arose in the course of colonization, therefore, atrocities committed during colonization and resistance wars cannot be accounted for genocide. It is also practically unachievable to mass slaughter tens of millions of people by the hands of just thousands of Conquistadors.

    If you choose to close this pointless debate, please consider answering the following question. If you think that, in addition to trade and the spread of the Christian faith through conversions, the Spaniards had intent of mass murdering the natives based on their ethnical origin, what objective other than deliberate destruction of Armenians as a race did the Turks have?

    • Paul: You are right, this debate has gone on too far. Let’s just agree to disagree. However, I will also repeat this for the last time, the intention of the Spanish INITIALLY was NOT to intentionally kill the native population. However, later on, to remove any threat that could stop or slow down their exploitation of raw resources, they deliberately and intentionally killed, and forced marched the native population to places far from their homeland. In closing, the Spanish simply clumped all Native Americans together, they killed on the base of color, not ethic origin. Oh, you said the Spanish had the intention to trade and spread Christianity. The latter part, yes, they did try to spread Christianity. Trade? You must mean ruthless exploitation. Speaking of dubious sources…

      http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html

      http://www.lcsc.edu/elmartin/historybehindthenews/spring%202005/delema.htm

      http://books.google.com.tr/books/about/American_holocaust.html?id=RzFsODcGjfcC&redir_esc=y

      Two university websites, and a book, to name just a few of the thousands of sources. You really think my argument was based on Wikipedia?

      Again, I can see why some people would say it is not genocide, and you can make a convincing and legitimate argument towards that. However, you have to concede that a very legitimate argument can be made for people who share my opinion on this matter. I really could not care any less what the UN considers genocide, the same UN who stood by and did nothing during the Bosnian genocide- see Srebrenica massacre ( don’t even TRY an tell me they did their best to stop Srebrenica from happening).

      Finally…. what objective other than deliberate destruction of Armenians as a race did the Turks have?

      From what I understand, the Turks were under the impression that by exterminating the “Armenian spies” who were “working for the enemy,” that it would help Turkey turn the tide of WW1, because obviously, the reason the Ottoman Empire was losing had nothing to do with the fact that they were up against far superior armies and technologies (reeking with sarcasm).

  526. RVDV you are just full of jokes and sarcasm are not you?

  527. you are talking about ignorant and criminal turkish government , do not wast your time to educate not to commit genocide,any opportunity they will have ,they will do it again, they are accepting committing genocide in dersin in 1936, not to the armenians to the kurds ,not to the kurds ,to the syrian, not to the syrians to the iranians, not to iranians to the jews,turkey is a blood thursty criminal country

  528. Pardon me, but whether or not other nations committed atrocities and did not admit to them or pay for their crimes has no bearing on the Armenian claim against Turkey. This line of discussion serves those who wish to dilute the tragedy of the Armenian Genocide or students who delve in depth into the larger question of incidents of genocide throughout history. The latter may be a worthy pursuit, but it doesn’t add much to the question of justice for Armenia, and the former is simply a despicable ploy used by those who would deny the truth.

    • Needless to say, you are spot on again. However, I think we need to understand why things like genocide happen. It’s not just blind hatred- hating someone and being capable of killing them are not the same thing. Murdering someone is a whole new level of hatred- mass murder is just something else- if we can understand the circumstances that elevate hate into mass murder we can assure that these things never happen again. Clearly, considering all the genocides after the AG, we still have not solved the issues that can lead people to commit such crimes. We can’t change the past, but we can learn from it.

    • Exactly Boyajian jan…

      RVDV- this matter have been discussed, researched, discussed, researched again and again and again.. historians already established as to why Ottoman Turkey did what they did.. we understand and we know what happened.. no need to rehash the same thing when it is arleady proven.. the ONLY thing that is missing from this equation is the apology, punishment and reperatation, period..

  529. I think it could be agreed that any directive from a Govt. (like Armenians, Jews,etc have) ordering the annihilation of any sub- group is genocidal in nature and that Govt.must take full responsibility for supporting it. Without direct Govt. Involvement the crime still exists but becomes “mass-murder-massacres-mass-killings,etc” and the problem is they should never be mixed for discussion. It’s apples to oranges.
    I don’t agree with limiting the discussion of Genocides to the AG. We diasporans have been urging the Israelis for years to recognise the AG and probably today, they will vote to institute a “remberance day”. They recently admitted that for years, they rejected recognising the AG because it would “dilute” the remembrance of the Holocaust-they admitted it was wrong, why shouldn’t you?. We support Cambodians, rwandans,darfurans and any victims of Genocide (by Govt. Directive)
    including, RVDV, Native Americans, where instances of Genocide did occur.though the “bio-warfare” was not a Govt.policy). The difference between the US and Turkey is that we admit what we did and you can read all about it at any library.
    I don’t understand why the Turks can’t show the courage (like the Kurds recently did) and simply admit that their “young Turks” were really just a bunch of homicidal criminals who themselves were condemned to death by Turkey, not for their genocide but for their corruption because they sold-off the supplies for the
    Army leaving 10’s of thousands of their own soldiers to die of exposure, disease
    and starvation in the snow. We Armenians didn’t (and couldn’t) kill them (though after what you did to our families-we would have)-your own Govt. did.
    Maybe that’s what they’re afraid of you finding out?

  530. RVDV: As promised, I no longer reply to your aberrations re: “Spanish genocide of the new world” theme.

    It’s discouraging that you could not care any less what the UN considers genocide based the conveniently singled-out case of Srebrenica massacre of Muslim males. But your personal opinion essentially doesn’t matter on the issue of international definition of genocide, because your country is a signatory to the 1948 UN Genocide Convention, thus, to the definition of genocide that the Convention contains. Show, at least, some understanding and respect to the fact that the very term ‘genocide’ that was used in the Convention was coined based on studies of the Turks’ mass annihilation of the Armenians and Germans’ mass annihilation of the Jews.

    Re: what objective other than deliberate destruction of Armenians as a race did the Turks have? You state: “From what I understand, the Turks were under the impression that by exterminating the “Armenian spies” who were “working for the enemy,” that it would help Turkey turn the tide of WWI.” This is a very weak and an easily refutable argument. If there were “Armenian spies working for the enemy,” the government of a civilized nation would isolate those few spies and not savagely mass slaughter women, children, elders, and even the unborn ripped out their mothers’ wombs. But this is what civilized nation would do. We’re dealing with the Turks…

    • Well said Paul jan… i too was a bit confused by RVDV’s comment on Armenian spies, etc etc… did not know if he was joking or being serious… guess he was being serious? if so, then it shows how little he knows.. especially when he claims to be a history major… who knows.. these Turks/Kurds turned to Turks are very confusing…

    • he wrote ‘(reeking with sarcasm).’ at the end of the paragraph.
      so, presumably he was being sarcastic with the spies and such.
      (poking fun at the contrived Denialist excuses…)

      confusing is right though. maybe it is meant to be confusing. You understand, right Gayane ?

    • The “reeking with sarcasm” part I put on the end was to show I was joking, and how weak the “its not genocide” arguments are. Sorry if it wasn’t clear enough.

    • Ayo Avery jan.. haskatsa…

  531. RVDV, when you think you understand why Turkey unleashed this violence on my people, please tell us. If that understanding also leads you to the cure for the ‘disease’ of denial that still plagues your country, please share that as well. In the mean time, thanks for engaging in this discussion of a very painful topic and your willingness to acknowledge the truth. How were you able to be free of the tyranny of the official Turkish account of what happened in 1915?

    • Boyajian: thanks for the kind words.

      How were you able to be free of the tyranny of the official Turkish account of what happened in 1915?

      Well growing up in the United States helps. I mean, I love my country, but I am not blind to obvious historical facts. Unwillingness to openly discuss every aspect of your nations history shows that you have something to hide. With the effort and money the Turkish government spends on keeping the Armenian genocide unrecognized in the worldwide community, they could really be doing things to help the country.

  532. Thank you Paul for your comment above. It is very clear and understandable.
    ( the fact that the very term ‘genocide’ that was used in the Convention was coined based on studies of the Turks’ mass annihilation of the Armenians and Germans’ mass annihilation of the Jews).

  533. The detain killings were known for Yeats now, and there are dozens of mass graves in Turkey today. If there is Detain killings it proves above all others to numerous others prior and eve after Detain. The mass graves and detain shows the typical Turkish methodology of dealing with obsticles.even after WwI.
    Erdogon is denialist and his anti diaspora stance clearly represents the denialist behavior pattern among the well trained Turkish polititions.
    Shame is on him, and his statement which is a call of desparation which had truth closing on his government’s (ottoman)) scloset full of lkeleton.
    He uHis sppology is more of a political. Statement to boost his image, even due he is appologizing even late for drain as well.
    Why not appologize for all of them????

  534. If any of the great Turkish leaders, since the late ottoman and even before were so greate then they would of already appologized for the country’s past to begin this.
    And if Erdogon was greate, he should of shown it by acknowledging and shown qsome consern regarding at least Safarov’s exterdition rather than critisizing the diaspora. But he chooses to side with his partner’s in Azerbaijan instead.
    For Dersim alone, Erdogone is taking himself off the case for the sake of politics, but those before him which dozens who perceeded his presidency, they remain guilty.
    Erdogone is missing the point by showing his anti diaspora face in his statement, since most diaspora are the direct descendants of those who lost lives.
    Turkish ottoman government h e g way in displacing Armenians and other natives since 19th century and invested ontheir political careers to deny crimes. Thy done it so long that they love their jobs now and they don’t like to undo their nationalistic and igoistic legacy. So old fassion.
    I have to give the guy credit for telling one truth after all these years.
    But, all said, Turkish ottoman appologies are long overdued and leaves erdogon to be the first to even bring up one of the many atrocities that took place in eastern boarders of the region which used to be poppulated by native Armenians not far back in history.
    That leaves dozens of other leaders who came before him guilty.
    The late bloom of Erdogon’s appology is a susspicious political move.

  535. avatar wellistennow // November 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm // Reply

    Erdogan apologizes for the lesser crime against Kurds because they are Muslims but he won’t apologize for the greater crime against Armenians because we are Christians. We broke the dhimma-contract when we demanded equal rights in Ottoman Empire. Thus, Turks feel they had the right to massacre us. All according to the religion of peace and its tenets. Oh yeah.

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