1,407 Comments

1. Thank you for your article. What about art effects and rare manuscripts looted by French and British Governments?
    

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2. It is well known that Ottoman’s abolished Christian Churches …Example is Famous Aya-Sofia 
   But they did not build even a mosque in the islamic states
   and they use to kill muslims in Arabia (Saudi Arabia…Yemen, Middle East, Egypt… )
   Al-Wahabia initiated because of them…
   They harmed every one from Yemen till Anatolia… Europe…were ever they occupied…
   So don’t mention only Christian homes but they are against Islam states as well…
   see what they are doing for Muslim Sunni Kurds… 
   We need an expert to write about the relation of the “Wahabia” and the Ottomans … 
    

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3. very nice, seems that there were more armenians in ottoman lands than turkish..strange why was it than called ottoman empire and not armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire

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4. @Anadolu. The Ottoman Empire stretched over many lands in which Turks were a minority. Like Palestine, North Africa, the Balkans….
    
   Also, you’re claiming that the Armenians did not form a majority population anywhere in Anatolia. Fine. Let’s say they were a minority. How then could this minority, which was legally prohibited from bearing arms let’s remember, pose an existential threat to the Ottoman Empire which required extinction/relocation???
    
   Turkish denialists like to have it both ways: on the one hand, they say that Armenians were a small minority and thus have no territorial claims; yet at the same time, they claim that this small minority posed a grave threat to the empire which required genocide.
    
   Fantastic and meticulous article by Raffi Bedrosyan.

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5. And, a Turkey still insults the intelligence of so many peoples via their genocides, via so-called alliances, via all sorts of gyrations to distract and destroy great peoples/civilizations that exceed the ancient and advanced societies beyond that which Turks’ can never/ever offer and be capable to share with other nations, whether neighbors, whether on again/off again ANY alliances… ala Turkish style.

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6. I would love to have enhanced reproductions of these maps to put up in my living room.  Perhaps ALMA could provide assistance since they have the where with all for map reproductions. These maps should be displayed in every Armenian Church.   

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7. Bravo!!!

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8. Thank you Raffi for highlighting this issue of Armenian Church and School properties in Ottoman Turkey prior to the 1915 – 1922 Armenian deportations and genocide.
   In addition to thousands of Armenian  churches and schools there were  also as many, centuries old, Armenian cemeteries  at every Armenian town and village and community.  Most of these cemeteries had their own small chapels and were surrounded by high stone-built walls.
   My father who was from Nigde  (born in 1890)  mentions in his written memoires  about the 
   Armenian Church, the Prelacy and the near-by Boys School  and also about the Armenian cemetery which had a two meters high stone wall built all around it and the benefactor’s name “Ghazarosian” displayed above the  main gate.  

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9. Dear Mr. Bedrosyan, Thank you for your article and your extensive research.  You did say that both Kars and Ardahan are excluded from the list.  Please be aware that Smyrna is also excluded from the list.  Since there were more than a 130,000 Armenians living in and around Smyrna region there must have been at least a few Armenian Churches and schools; but there was one very huge, majestic and a renovated Armenian Church and a school in the heart of Smyrna in 1922 before Ataturk’s entering and having the Armenian population annihilated. The Armenians in Smyrna have been present in Smyrna since the 10th century.  After the Lusinyan kingdom collapse in Cilicya a great many Armenians from Cilicya have also migrated to Smyrna as well as after Shah Abbas’ conquering the Armenian Highlands, to save themselves more than 25,000 Armenian families have migrated to Smyrna and to the Archipelagos islands.  In 1650 the SAINT STEPPANNOS CHURCH was built in the heart of Smyrna (Izmir) located in the southskirts of Pakos mountain.  This was an enormous monumental and a majestic Church when in 1845 it was burnt down, and it was then rebuilt by the great engineer Melkon Yeremian who was brought in from Gostantnoubolis to do the job.  St. Steppannos Church had an enormous majestic dome, with double towers.  The entrance had marble floors and inside the Church there was 24 marble pillars/columns with a height of 2,20 meters and 1,12 meters in width.  The Church had seven doors with a raised platform ascending by 40 steps.  The inner part of the Church was wondrous with 10 huge marble pillars; each with 5,50 meters height and 1,90 meters width.  From the entrance of St. Steppannos Church till the altar was 24 meters with a nine meter dome.  The grand senior altar was dedicated to Saint Steppannos, the right part of the altar was dedicated to Saint Hovhannou Garabed and the left part of the altar it was dedicated to Saint Mary, mother of God “Sourp Asdvadsadsin”.  On the two sides of this majestic Church there were additional extended small Churches.  On the right and the left side of the Church; the right “madour” was dedicated to Saint Bartholomew and the left “madour” was dedicated to Saint “Kelxatirin”.   Next to this enormous and beautiful Church of course there was the “Arachnortaran” where the prelate presided with it’s various rooms for the clerics as well as a grand room to receiving guests and the prelate’s bedroom.  This was built in 1858.

   Then the St. MESROBIAN SCHOOL for boys.  Smyrna had no schools until the beginning of the 18th century.  The  ST. HRIPSIME GIRLS SCHOOL  was built 25 years after the boys’ Mesrobian School was built.  But along with Saint Steppanos Church, St. Hripsime Girls School was burnt to ashes in 1845 and this school was also rebuilt in 1880.

   Along with the building of the Church and the schools, the national hospital was also built for the community and the vacinities of the Smyrna populace in 1879.

   All of these are taken from my grandfather Minas’ memoirs, who’s uncle was the Archpriest Der Haroutyoun, who was taken away by the gendarmes and killed and martyred in 1922 right after the burning of Smyrna.  Ironically he was the Archpriest and the right hand “deghabah” of the Archbishop Ghevont Tourian who was the Archbishop of the Armenians in Smyrna for 22 years.  Yet in 1922 Archbishop Ghevont Tourian escaped Smyrna all by himself wearing Latin priest’s clothes and migrated to the United States.  He did not even make an attempt to save the skin of his right hand Arpriest Der Haroutyoun nor the 130,000 Smyrna’s Armenian population.             

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10. My above post that was taken from my grandfather’s Memoirs written in Armenian, I have just translated into English.

    Seervart

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11. i am glad of tigran’s reply! my uncle went to tarsus where my family is from, from time immemeorial. he went a decade or two back, and tried to photograph my grandfather’s house. he was terrified! the turks started gathering around him, they were menacing him is what i’m trying to say.it is unsafe for us to go back from where we came!
    we must have justice–not only for our lost family members who died in the genocide, but to humanize our turkish murderers.

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12. well said Tigran. 

    Paging all Turks and their Turkophile  friends: let’s see you find a way out of the logical dead end Tigran has presented to you Denialists.

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13. Dear Seervart,
    Smyrna is shown as Izmir, the Turkish name of the city. Thanks for your comments.

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14. Very impressive and touchy story.
    God bless all of you all the times. Amen.
     

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15. Dear Raffi, You are right, I missed to see Izmir on the list while I was looking for Smyrna alone.  You are most welcomed my compatriot; but this overlook of Izmir gave me an incentive today to traslate Minas’ (my grandfather’s) memoirs into English, which gave the historical events of our fine peoples’ migration to Smirna and the existence of a majestic Armenian Saint Steppannos Church of Izmir, so that our generations would be proud today of it’s existence, thanks to the dedication and the ingenuity of our forefathers who have built it.
     
    Dear Bedros, Thanks for the well wishing, and may God bless you and all my compatriots alike!

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16. Excellent Article.. This should be in the chapters of all school history books… every one of them… i would also like to have those old maps if possible…

    Seervart jan– excellent post.. Got goosebumps when I read it.. wow. .your grandfathe is considers a hero in my book.. to witness and also write his memoir so future generation to study and be educated.. he is indeed a hero in my book…

    Tigran jan– WELL SAID.. you hit the nail on its head.. Turkish govt and denialists do EXACTLY that… blame Armenians for taking up arms and rebel against Ottoman Empire not recalling that Armenians were minority.. BUT when it comes to churches, culture, arts, schools, and everything else that was ours, they try to SHOVE the minority number in everyone’s throat.. such bastards.. but we all know how they operate so it does not come surprise to me when this so called Anadolu posted his comment…      

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17. Seervart: Note that Smyrna = Izmir = 23 churches, 27 schools

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18. Dear Gayane, Thank you.  Btw; my grandfather Minas was an educated man of his time.  He was a graduate from the Turkish mililtary school, then after two years he was obligated to serve in the Turkish army; but after the Armenian Genocide happened, he formed his troops and he lead it against the Turks as a “gamavor” Fedayi on the Cilicyan mountains for a year and a half.  Before he wrote his memoirs in a book of the fall of Izmir, he was a distinguished leader, a speaker and an orator amongst Armenians in the Diaspora.

    Halo, Yes I saw it under Izmir the 23 Armenian churches and the 27 Armenian schools, thank y

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19. Yes, it’s true…Armenians, in fact, were not a true ‘minority’, except in a technical sense. Of the 10 million people in Anatolia in 1914, roughly 2 million or somewhat more were idenified as Armenian, and approximately the same number were Turks, Greeks and Kurds. Others, like Assyrians or Jews were true minorities. Moreover, Armenians were the most numerous indigenous people in eastern Anatolia. As such, their history stretches back at least 4000+ years. The fact that they had a massive number of schools, hospitals and churches for hundreds of years should be no surprise to anyone. After such a long settled history, this is the result. It’s called civilization.  Without Armenian civilization, Turks would have nothing.    

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20. The map is very painful to every educated culture person not all for Armenians…To know how we lost our educated people and culture…To start from scratch…
    This should be aveiable to ‘Human Rights’ group…congrats for Raffi and his group.
    As far as i can remember from my grandmother…That there was a collage in Diyarbakir
    where my grandfather Mihran Dabbaghian was graduated as well his brothers, cousins (Kazanjian, Simsarian…).Do you regard collages according to this article as schools?

    SP 

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21. Dear Tigran,

    right, as you have correctly mentioned in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either, they mostly ruled it with garrison troops and with local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans. But as the Ottoman Empire stretched over vast lands it had also its own mainland with mainly Turkish citizens. And this is today’s Turkey.

    If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations, who by the way attacked and killed peaceful Armenians as well because they stayed firm and allied themselves with the State (Ottoman empire). If you have such organization secretly and sneaky sabotaging, Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere (West, south front, allies – east front Russia,).This is a very critical point, this something which no government on earth would tolerate. Than one should not wonder why for the sake of internal state order, and for the sake of winning the war against the Allies and Russia, the Armenian population had to be relocated. Is it not strange while for centuries the Armenians were known to be loyal to the state, but due to foreign intervention und and underground organizations, this peaceful neighborhood came to an end. It maybe because of wrong politics. Please note war is a disaster for human mankind, while many Armenians lost their lifes, so too did other Ottoman citiziens lose their lifes and that was no less.

    And if you show here churches and school’s, one should also keep in mind, that most of these buildings were created during the peaceful coexistence between the various ethnic groups, while protected by the state.

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22. Slyva – in those days in Turkey, a ‘college’ was the term used for a high school, not a university. My grandfather attended Euphrates College, and learned English there. As such, he had a great education and was consdered to be a very well educated guy, even though he never attended university.

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    • Totally agree…

23. Karekin-efendi:    Why do you refer to those days when a college was the term used for a high school? Those days are long gone. Step into the real world where the rubber meets the road. For the first time in many centuries, we have an azad Hayastan that’s survived more than just a few years, and you wallow in the past when your grandfather attended Euphrates College and learned English there. You are drowning in your own remembrances. Be fearful for the survival of the nation because of practical considerations on the ground, such as hostile neighbors. No need to drown in remembrances that the same hostile neighbors caused annihilation of your nation. Learn nothing from the past. Never look back. Keep your eye on the real prize, which lies in the future, which in your imaginary world exists without the past.

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24. Though the term “college” was technically a high school by today’s standards it is equivalent to today’s colleges.  Having studied the curriculum of those days of high schools in the US, their studies were more rigid than US colleges of today.

    So the broad use of the word college would be on the same level of a high school in that period of time.  However, the high school of that period had a more rigorous approach to studies than the colleges of today.

    Therefore,  the reference to Euphrates College as a college would be a correct term.

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25. Anadolu.. you sound THE EXACT SAME denialist and closed minded with misfit and misinformation like your comrads that we know very well..

    Your words ring loud and familiar.. it was a war, it was Armenian groups who rebelled, Armenian underground organized groups killed Armenians, both Turks and Armenians  lost lives..war is a disaster….. ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS???? are you listening to yourself? another one to the long list of arrogant,  lost denialist Turk..

    Avery, Karo, Armen, Boyajian, Seervart, Katia and my other well versed in history comrads, please please please educate this poor and lost soul about the TRUE history behind what happened in the Ottoman Empire time.. because he is giving me an ulcer when he speaks with such nonsense….     

    Gayane

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26. Anadolu,

    You have avoided my question, and contradicted yourself once again. Your logic: hunchaks and Dashnaks were rebelling and killing even peaceful Armenians, therefore “Armenian population” had to be relocated. I’m confused. Hunchaks and Dashnaks=Armenian population? Didn’t you just imply that these ‘rebellious’ groups were a minority (‘underground’), and the mainstream Armenians stayed loyal to the state? Keep trying to rationalize genocide, I’m enjoying pointing out your logical contradictions.

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    • Why do you not accept to open all archieves(such as Armenian, Russia, Ottoman, American, British, French…etc) and set up a historician committee on researching what happened in 1915?
      Turkey offers it for years.
      Why don’t you accept it and repeat the same thing as a parrot?

27. this one is Tigran’s case , Gayane.
    Let him have some of the fun. Let’s wait a little. He’ll let us know if he’s busy and want us to take over. 

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28. “[…]in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either.”

    Anadolu, they did. Before the establishment of the House of Osman, Seljuk Turks and Mongols—the ancestors of the Ottoman and modern-day Turks—did migrate from the steppes of Mongolia and Central Asia and the mountains of Altay.
     
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans.”
    Now the Turkish commentators changed the tune, huh? Now they tell us that native rulers were allied with the Ottomans. Alliance suggests a voluntary action, which historically it was not. Native peoples and their rulers were colonized by the Ottomans, and under restrictions imposed on them as millets had to maintain unhappy existence under the Turkish yoke.
     
    “If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations[…]secretly and sneaky sabotaging Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere, […t]his is a very critical point, this is something which no government on earth would tolerate.”
    By the mid-19th-early 20th centuries, all colonized nations in the Ottoman empire—Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians, Armenians, and even your fellow Muslim Arabs—wished to slough off colonial shackles and live as independent nations. From the perspective of these nations, it was nothing else than freedom-fighting, struggle for liberation. But let’s get to the point which you characterize as ‘critical’, i.e. no government on earth would tolerate [the struggle of the colonized peoples] which you call internal disorder. It is, indeed, critical, because if we forget for a second that those nations’ struggle was just, in civilized nations governments take into custody those few who stir unrest. Were there a few Armenians revolutionaries longing for freedom for their countrymen? You bet there were, as they were in any nation that ultimately seceded from the Ottomans. But the critical point is that Ottoman Turks preferred not to take into custody those few, but exterminate 2 million innocent people representing one of the most ancient civilizations inhabiting the Earth. On an individual level, if you’re a ‘criminal’, however righteous your motives are, and I’m a gendarme representing a state which, as you say, won’t tolerate unrest, what do you think would be my actions against you? Would I place you, as a perceived criminal, under arrest or I’d rape your mother and sister in front of you, mutilate your father, decapitate your brother, and rip off the womb of your pregnant little sister? This is not an horror movie, Anadolu. These are the barbarian methods of your granfathers.

    The concern of the Ottoman Turks with regard to Armenians was not the internal state order that a few Armenian revolutionaries couldn’t possibly disrupt. After all, there was no single organized mass violence by Armenians against the Turks before 1915. Put your hand on your heart and refer me to any such a mass disorder that Ottoman Armenians caused against the state, even in a Turkish source. You’ll find none. After all, Armenians lived in their majority in the areas fa-a-a-r removed from the frontlines of WWI. The major concern of your savage grandfathers was to secure as much lands from the crumbling Ottoman empire as possible. With the Balkans, Middle East, and Arabia gone, independent Armenians, residing for millennia in the eastern parts of the empire and Cilicia, could have meant the end of Turkish presence in eastern Anatolia. This is the critical point that, I’d dare to say, all of historians agree upon.

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29. Anadolu, even during the ottoman times Armenia was called ARMENIA in every document ,be it the European or Ottoman document!

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30. Avery.. you are right..:) Tigran did a great job and I am sure he would want to say something in regards to Anadolu’s comments.. so we will wait..

    However, I want to say Gor did an excellent job replying to Anadolu… well said Gor jan..

    Gayane  

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31. Dear Gor, Thank you for the good answers and the examples that you gave to Anadolu, I couldn’t have said it better.  I just wish to add that Dashnaktsutyun nor Henchagyans were not underground organizations but very dignified and respectful nationalistic organizations to save Armenians from the Turkish mobs; and they were created right around the Hamidian massacres when Abdul Al Hamid II annihilated 300,000 Armenians on the highlands of Armenia from 1895-1896.  Even then the Turks wanted to do away with the Armenians; all of them.  Henchagyans first then Dashnagtsutyun were created because Armenians were constantly and continuously were being targeted by the Turkish mob in Turkey.  Ever since the Mongolian Seljuk Ottoman Turks came from the middle of Asia in the 10th century, Armenians didn’t have peace.  The entire Armenian population were living in fear every day of their lives; the little boys were being stolen from their mothers, which the Turks made “yenicheris” out of them; which meant, the Turks created a huge Turkish army out of our little stolen boys.  Then our most beautiful women were targeted to be stolen either for the Turks’ harems or whatever their desires were at the time (to rape and kill them or to keep them as their wives in their harems).  Armenians were never safe in their lands living within the Turkish yoke and living next to the Turkish people.  That’s why Henchagyans and Dashnagtsuyun organizations were created to somehow bring safety and solace for the local Armenian people who only worried to go about their jobs, to mind the crops, the sheeps, build bridges, Monasteries, Churches and sing their songs.  When the Ittihadists (the jeneus Turks) came in 1908 they wanted to finish the job of Abdul Hamid, to completely do a thorough annihilation of the Armenians.  They realized that the Armenian question must be finished right then and there and with their bloody criminal bloodsoaked hands. 

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32. To finish my point above is this.  Why the jeunes Turks, the Ittihadists wanted to finish with the Armenian question and kill all the Armenians, perhaps most of us Armenians didn’t know it 50 or so years ago, in another words most of our anscestors probably didn’t know it either; but today most of us know the real reasons of the Armenian Genocide by the hands of the Ittihadists.  They were jealous of Armenians because they were hard working ingenius people and most were very rich, especially the ones who were in the trade business, they were jealous because they wanted their people to take over the businesses and the riches of the Armenians.  They wanted all of Western Armenian lands, but without Armenians.  It was all for money.  Yes lands too, but it was mostly for money.

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33. Let us all remember what Talaat Pasha asked to the U.S. ambassador Morgenthau in and around 1918, after he had most of the Armenians killed by that time and the women and the children were sent into the death marches of southern Arabia by his own orders.  “Do you know where all the insurance papers of the Armenians are”, Talaat asked to Morgenthau.  “They are all dead now, could you give me their insurance papers, so that I will collect their insurance monies?”  This is what Talaat asked to ambassador Morgenthau, and Morgenthau shook his head with disgust and didn’t give him any such insurance forms. 

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34. ANADOLU!
    I think you’d find better acceptance amongst other Turkish apologists and revisionists elsewhere rather than wasting your (and our) time staying in this forum.

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35. Dear Gayane,

    and you sound like the typical person who in his mind prefers an exaggerated adoration of anything that harms Turks. Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.

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36. Dear Gor,

    if you go back to the times before the Ottoman empire, yes of course Turks migrated from the Asian steps. But this kind of migrations is a human attitude and not merely something that only Turks have doneJ. Armenians maybe also connected to the Persians, before they migrated from Mesopotamia.
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans
    Yes some alliance were made by force some were voluntarily, see Algeria, Tunis, Libya
    Colonized? Please compare the colonization with France, Spain, Belgium, Britain and the Ottomans.
    In the European Parliament, a Greek deputy recently thanked the Ottomans for their fare treatment. As rightly remember, he said thank you that we still can speak our own language it is not normal to speak its own native language after 500 years Ottoman rule. If you keep in mind American or African natives. Anyway I need to continue work, otherwise I’ll get firedJ.
    We may have different perceptions, but I respect the Armenians since we are actually the same people from the same lands.

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37. The history is irrefutable, Armenians have lived in Anatolia since time immemorial. That cannot be denied. There have been many ups and downs during that history. That cannot be denied. But, just as contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians do not maintain a seething anger against the Spanish, despite their horribly low status in their own lands, it does not serve Armenians to stew in anger, either. The real question is, how long does it go on?  WHen does your focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future?  History is fine, but it does not feed, clothe or heat people’s homes. Thousands upon thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there and they cannot survive. What is your answer for this situation?

    Robert – yes, I appreciate your assesment about the academic standards at places like Yeprad College. They were, in fact, very high.

       

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38. Anadolu:    Please don’t ‘Dear’ me as a typically Turkish cajolery. Thanks for admitting that Turks are a migrant nation. This must open your eyes to the fact that your forefathers never belonged in Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau. I understand that migrations are characteristic to many peoples, but we’re talking here about a Seljuk/Mongol migration that brought devastation and mass death to highly-developed civilizations inhabiting Asia Minor: Byzantine Greek, Assyrian, and Armenian. Do you appreciate the difference between a mere migration and a migration that was, in essence, a military invasion resulted in destruction of sedentary peoples and their cultural achievements? After invasion and throughout colonization of those peoples, they were physically annihilated in the early 20th century by the Turks. Can you find any mass of Greeks, Armenians, or Assyrians in modern-day Turkey? If migrations, as you said, are ‘human attitude’, are invasions, colonization, and mass physical extermination of indigenous peoples also a ‘human attitude’?
     
    BTW: There are many hypotheses of the origin of the Armenian people, but none mentions Mesopotamia as Armenian homeland. Whether Armenians originated in an area where they lived until being mass murdered by the Turks or not, there is no historical evidence that’d suggest that Armenians caused destruction on massive scale to any indigenous civilizations and then presented other peoples’ cultural edifices as their own, a widespread practice of modern-day Turks with regard to the remnants of the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian churches, monasteries, and cemeteries.
     
    Alliances and colonization.   I speak for Christian Armenians, and also for Greeks and Assyrians, if I may, not for Muslim nations. Some of them might have entered voluntary alliances with the Turks. However, most of the indigenous peoples that Seljuks invaded and Ottomans colonized didn’t invite your ancestors to do so. They fought. They resisted invasions. They were disgruntled by the fact of colonization, even your fellow Muslim Arabs, whose intelligentsia were hanged in Allepo. It was a sheer colonization that made native peoples miserable, voiceless millets under the Ottomans. I don’t have to compare Ottoman colonization with the colonization of the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British for one major reason. Beside grief and oppression, the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British also brought development and civilization to the nations they colonized. Ottoman Turks, descendants of uncivilized nomadic barbarians, brought nothing but grief and oppression which in the late 19th-early 20th centuries culminated into mass physical extermination of all Christian peoples in the Ottoman empire. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians were exterminated. Armenians suffered the most heinous form of extermination: the genocide and forced deportation of 2 million innocent human beings. Show me any such barbarism during the colonization by the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British? Can you?

    I don’t know what a Greek deputy said in the European Parliament, but the only two major rights that were allowed for Ottoman millets to have were language and restricted practice of religion. The Greek deputy must have forgotten that witness accounts of a Christian against a Turk were disregarded in Ottoman courts; that Christians were unbearably overtaxed as compared to Turks; that Christians were barred from carrying weapons; that Christian villages were subject to constant pillages, loot, and abductions by Muslim bands that always went unpunished; that the windows of a Christian house must not have overlooked the windows of a Turkish house; that Christians were not allowed to mount a horse in order not to be higher than a pedestrian Turk. This we know for sure. Is this called Turkish ‘civilization’?

    Lastly, Armenians and Turks are not ‘the same people from the same lands’. We are an Arian people, not barbarians.Our language belongs to the Indo-European family of language, not Turkic Oghuz family. We are a sedentary people, not nomads. Our lands traditionally were the Armenian Plateau in the easternmost part of Asia Minor, not in the Central Asian steppes and the Altay Mountains. We are the first nation to adopt Christianity as official religion, not Muslims. We’re known by our contributions to the world civilization in arts and sciences, business and trade, architecture, and military art, not by invasions, colonization, and genocide of other nations.
     

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39. Karekin-bey, borrowing from Avery, I refuted your mumblings in other threads, and, make no mistake, will do so whenever and wherever you pop off. Again, contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians, although seen colonization by Conquistadors, continue to live in their historic homeland. Armenians, in contrast, were mass murdered by the Turks and their historic homeland stolen from them as a result.
     
    When does our focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future? Whenever the murderer apologizes to the victim.

    What is our answer for the situation where thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there? This situation has been created by what you think cannot feed, clothe or heat people’s homes: history. Landlocked modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of theft of Western Armenia by the Turks. Struggling modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of physical extermination of Western Armenians and theft of their property and bank accounts.
     
    Not to see this obvious historical link means either playing ostrich or tilting minds. The latter ain’t gonna happen…

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    • Ok then!
      Let’s leave Anatolia for you.
      What are you talking about?
      500 hundred years ago, America was belong to whom?
      Please leave America for them of course if you can find them!

40. To Karekin
    The elderly go mostly to Russia  and accept citizenship to receive pension which Russia owes them since they’ve worked all they life for Soviet Union,and  Russia kept the funds.So it’s justified!And there is no requirement to live there,that’s why everyone returns after they do all the paperwork .I am an Armenian from Armenia,and i know this.

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41. Anadolu,

    FYI- I am not a man.. I am a woman..

    Second of all—–you said
     Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.
     You just described A TRUE, CODE RED TURKISH DENIALIST …. you hit the nail on its head.. now you understand how your govt is trying to do harm to Armenian people….BY EXAGGERATING their  lies and consequences of not following its orders to be SOOOOOOOOOO DAMAGING that no country especially USA would want to extend the wipping hand toward Turks…meaning having those countries to punish Turkey by any means and say Turkish govt YOU ARE GUILTY and YOU NEED TO CONFESS AND MAKE THINGS RIGHT….

    You speak of GOD???? YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUu??? now this is a first… but unfortunately you used our Lord Jesus Christ in a completly wrong way.. so instead of using GOD which I doubt your ancestors even remotely understood what HE stands for because my people were slaughtered just because they were Christians, you should not talk… but you should truly listen and read things that my friends provide to you.. information you might have never heard of.. So open your eyes and ears and pay attention.. You might be saved… i hope you will..

    Gayane  

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42. Seervart jan— apres.. loved it…:)

    Karekin– I hear you but i don’t get you.. how can you continue to preach the same thing again: history is history and we need to move on.. WE WILL NOT MOVE ON UNTIL JUSTICE IS SERVED my friend.. you do get that right?…

    No on on these pages want to neglect the fact that our country is getting smaller and smaller because alot of our sisters and brothers  leave.. and YES.. that is a problem… a problem that needs to be fixed immediately and no one is denying.. however, we can’t just leave what has been in the works for years and the struggle and the time and money and efforts we put in to accomplish what we started and DESERVE… and that is correcting the history TUrks rewrote about the ARmenians, get them recognize what their ancestors have done and give back what their ancestors have stolen…… without this, they will remain as the murderors who got away with murder.. tha is UNACCEPTABLE.. however, at the same time we need to work ongetting our country back on its feet with whatever means we have.. that is what I am doing.. but we can’t leave one and just concentrate on the other.. These two matters go hand in hand…

    Thank you

    Gayane      

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43. Gor jan… EXCELLENT.. loved reading your comments.. Avery was right.. you definintely are doing your part and I am sooooo glad… hopefully Anadolu and his pathetic friends and we all know who they (actually i am surprised none of them peeked their ugly heads in these thread but i have a feeling someone will pop up sooner or later)  are reading such posts and maybe learning something true…. i am just hoping…

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44. It is amazing that Turkish-trolls never tire of digging up and gloating over bad news from Armenia, yet never seem to be able to find any good news about Armenia in the same world-wide-web. “…maybe there are no good news from Armenia,” you ask innocently ?
    Au contrair, mon ami.
     
    Someone in another thread recently said, “…Read it and weep, folks….”, while linking to yet another article of woes of Armenia.
     
     
    Well, Armenian folks and  friends, read and rejoice. “Armenia registers second industrial growth among CIS states”. (News.am) 
    http://news.am/eng/news/69934.html   

    With all the roadblocks being thrown at RoA, they are able to achieve this much.
    Just imagine what our people could do with access to the Black Sea and the worlds oceans – to have low-cost, reliable trade and transportation routes.
    (BTW: that same somebody also asked what we, Armenians, would do when we get back Western Armenia (that’s right, I said when)). 

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45. AMEN to that Avery jan.. AMEN…

    If we only had the free trade and open borders and sound govt.. we will absolutely rule the area….Turks know this very well…they know that we were superior in education, trade, arts, and culture back then; which is why they attempted to destroy us and they know that now.. which is why they are doing EVERYTHING not to allow that to happen.. but WHEN that happens.. and yes Avery jan I am with you on this.. WHEN that happens, there is no stopping…

    Gayane   

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46. another piece of cheerful news from Turkey that Turkish-trolls somehow missed, and we cheerfully bring to your attention: ‘Turks lack knowledge, learn from television’ (source Hurriyet).

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=8216turks-lack–knowledge-learn-from–television8217-2011-08-02

     

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47. Gayane, although I sympathize with and understand your sentiments and where they come from, keep in mind…no country on earth has ever won a multi-front war, and that’s exactly what this is. So, you have to pick your battles carefully. We do not have alot of resources, so, I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost. I know it sounds painful, but why risk what we have?  Why risk the lives of those living in Armenia now and worse, the viability of the entire country?  Someone who is always looking backwards will usually walk into a ditch or a wall, because they are not looking ahead. Sounds corny, but it’s a truism that is worth noting here. 

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48. Avery jan.. thank you for the link about the Turkish lack knowledge piece.. I read it and I also commented on the article…

    one section of the article nailed it:
    When asked whether or not they would be eager to attend an educational program that could help them with commonly encountered problems, between 57 and 65 percent of the families surveyed said it was “not necessary” and added that information from TV and newspapers was sufficient to solve their problems.

    This is why we have so many denialists such as Roberts, Anadolus, Murats, and alike…because they are not educated enough of what is true history, they don’t know their own history let alone try to understand others, they are oblivious, deprived from what every day man and woman needs to know to be independent.. i mean this is why Turkish govt wants though. because they can control them like puppets.. it is sad…

    Gayane   
       

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49. I agree! Every Armenian church must display historic Armenia as well. I would make sure, my church does display these maps. I expect you do the same.

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50. Theoritically, all interested parties in the region seek peace. It would be in interest of all these parties in the region to have a viable Armenian state. Without ARARAT and without access to the black see, there would not be peace in Armenia and in the region as well. Without ARARAT, Armenians are beings with lost soul. I cannot imagine Armenia without ARARAT. Legally, ARARAT belongs to Armenia. The reason for those unfortunate protocols were to legalize the current boarder between Turkey and Armenia which implies that the current boarder is not legal otherwise there would not have been any reason to include those provisions. Only way there would be peace between Turks and Armenians is that Turks return our Western Armenia pay punitive damages for their genocide against Armenians. Every Armenian is obligated to pursue these goals if he or she is proud to be called an Armenian.

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51. “I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost.”   —-Following the same ‘logical’ magnum opus by Karekin-bey, Gayane, in 1988-1994 Armenians should have only protected the Republic, not freedom-fighting Artsakh that was lost to Azeristan as a result of Stalin’s transfer in the early 1920s. See, what Socrates-like ‘logic’ the guy has… Amazing logic!

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52. Asa eh Karo jan.. Asa.. bayts inch anem? Karekin just can’t get it.. i know where he is coming from, i understand it but the way he goes about it is all wrong… he is just concentrated on ONE thing.. and that ain’t happening with me. no way…well what can we do? that is the way he is I guess…

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53. Avery,

    Recntly you asked me for a source of my info about Armenia-German connection. I could not remember then, but today I coincidentally came across that again.
    If you go to armeniansworld.com and scroll down to “ARmenian God AR and Hayk Forefather” click on it then scroll down a bit you will find it.  
     

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54. AR:  I checked the link: an interesting site. ‘Stephanie Nazoyan from Canada’ is really beautiful.

    OK, on to more unpleasant stuff.

    re: “Thousands of years later, in the first century AD, another Armenian leader, bearing the sacred name of his kinsmen — Armen or Ar-Man, known Armin[ius] to the Romans and Herman [German]…” 

    I know of Arminius, but not as an Armenian. If he were Armenian, and  neither German nor Roman sources would reveal it –  would be no surprise. However, the citation in the link is weak: there are no precise dates, nor how he got to Germany from Armenia and such, with 30,000 Armenian horsemen: that’s a huge number in those days; there would be record of their travels.  Maybe the author did not have space, but I will have to check other Armenian historians. I don’t remember any other source that cites Arminius as Armenian, but one never knows. For now though, I have to assume he is not. Sorry.

    If I find other sources confirming it, I’ll post. 

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55. Gor, I welcome your intellectual inputs on these pages of AW and I appreciate your last post as well.  Thank you.

    @Anadolu,  I have never heard that Armenians migrated and or came from Mesopotamia.  More than 5,000 years ago Armenians were tribal people and some came from the Thrace region, while others came from today’s north-western Greece, the Hiasa’s, Nairi’s then migrated to the Armenian Highlands and were mixed  with the Urartians in

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56. Avery,
    One of the most valuable ARmenians alive, Alexander Varpetyan, also covers that topic.  I don’t remember where exactly he does, but he was my original source for ARmeno-German connection.

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57. Dear Tigran,
    The Huchnaks and Dashnaks, had their aims. And anything what stood against it had to be removed, why don’t you check the manifesto  of these groups.(see below one citation). It’s not much different than today’s terrorist groups, or the communist cells that killed through terrorist acts government staff and ordinary citizens. The Huchnak and Dashnaks were recruiting more Armenians, which were radicalized by their propaganda, but Armenians who lived in welfare were not interested in that.
    To create social chaos against which the Ottoman army would react and to thereby ensure the intervention of Western powers in the situation.
    All was very well planed, create chaos, attack muslim citizens (in oder to have revenge and killings), by that it would be blamed to the Ottoman State. Ask western countries for help because Armenians were killed, with the assistance of Western Consuls and it’s Christian missionaries assisting the Huchnak and Dashnak propaganda in transmitting it to western public opinion.

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58. One more example:
    The first move adopted on April 24, 1915 was to ban all Armenian committees and to arrest 2.345 leaders for crimes against the State. The date of April 24, commemorated by the Armenians abroad as the anniversary of genocide against Armenians, is the date of these arrests and has nothing to do with the replacement.
    The Etchmiasin Patriarch, a priest named Kevork, sent the following cable to the United States President upon this move:
    Mr. President, according to the latest news received from the Turkish Armenia, a massacre started there and an organised terror has put the Armenian lives in danger. In this precarious moment, I am addressing to the noble sentiments of the great American nation and ask you to intervene immediately through your Great Republic’s diplomatic representation for protecting my people left to the mercy of the violence of Turkish fanaticism, on behalf of humanity and Christian belief.
    Kevorg, Ecumenic Patriarch of all Armenians.
    This cable was followed by the Washington contacts of the Russian Ambassador.
    The incident here was merely the banning of Armenian committees and the arrest of the culprits. Yet, the Armenians endeavoured to display it as a massacre and to rally the United States and Russia into their ranks.

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59. Anadolu – the Armenian political parties – which were working with the leaders of the CUP, were taking steps to 1) stop unfair taxation and reform land ownership issues 2) defend their towns and villages from government sponsored (Kurdish) raids and 2) move towards autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, what would bring the benfits of the millet system to a political level. Even though they had seen Greece and other territories gain independence earlier, that was not their original aim. It was not until they were betrayed by the leaders of the CUP did they become more emphatic in trying to protect the Armenian population. You may see this as ‘terrorist’ activity, but from the Armenian point of view, it was purely self-defense. The response by the CUP was a multi-year, murderous rampage designed to get rid of Armenians, steal everything they owned and had created, and open up space for Muslims who were leaving the Balkans and the Caucasus. It many ways, it was the precursor of the idea promoted by Hitler, to open more space for Germans. And, the result was the same…national disaster, not just for Armenians, but for Turks, Greeks and everyone else who had lived under the Ottoman umbrella. Most nations have their creation myths, and Ataturk, by erasing as much evidence as possible, sought to reprogram people’s minds. His propaganda effort…to elevate the word ‘Turk’, while demoting those who had actually built and supported the empire for centuries, the Armenians and Greeks, was racist to the core. It’s almost laughable, because he himself, was not a Turk at all…and he expanded the stain created by the Ittihadists. This, Turkey for the Turks (many of whom were never really Turks at all)….concept created misery and pain for millions of people for decades. You can’t blame Armenians for any of that….it was self-created by Turkey’s revered, if criminal, leaders, who by the way, ran the country with an iron fist.       

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60. It was indeed a massacre planned and carried out as such. The goal was to exterminate community leaders with the goal of drowning out those that might raise their voices to outside powers/publicize the continued deterioration of situation with regards to the Christian population in Turkey. And guess what happened to the vast majority of those 2,345 Armenians (the vast majority of whom were not involved in politics and none of whom called for the overthrow of the Ottoman state)? They were killed. No explanation, no trial, just taken from their families wholesale  and killed. Soon after the roundups and massacres of Armenians in the interior intensified (these had actually begun in late 1914) and now in areas nowhere near “the front”. 

    The Hunchak and Dashnaks will always be the red herring for Turks and used as an excuse. Again, the vast majority of Armenians were not involved in politics, were not party members, and were just trying to survive from day to day (an awful like the Kurds today–Turks never learn I guess. They de-populated and destroyed thousands of villages, made life miserable for the Kurdish population for decades in order to eliminate a few thousand members of the PKK but in the process have ensured that the PKK continues to gain new membership through their heavy-handed methods. How is that working for Turkey? And they Turks have the audacity to complain about the light of Palestinians, Uighurs, etc—-hypocrisy). While the Hunchaks were the more radical of the two– and also a very small membership, the Dashnaks were eager to work with the CUP but were eventually betrayed by the Pan-Turk elements that took charge. Some of those 2,345 were actually parliament members when they were killed. 

    That priest had every right to notify outside forces about the situation. Where else could he turn, the Ottoman authorities? The ones that were committing this crime? Would you trust a government that is terrorizing your people?

     

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61. Dear Gor,
    To Dear you is not a typically Turkish cajolery It’s a standard way of starting a correspondence with each other. And second it’s a form of respect nothing else. Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later. Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands. Before Turks arrived, there was War as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia. You exaggerate again, Byzantine Greek was so great so wonderful yes, and you forgot the heavy taxation of the Greeks and how badly they treated non Greek citizens. If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages. But in your mind of course it would only forced mixes through harems and enslaving. In those days every nation enslaved other as a spoil of war, so don’t worry it was not a mere Turkish practice.
    Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed and killed and totally annihilated South America in the early colonization British who murdered peaceful American Indians, Native African but no problem they were all uncivilized right? Where are the Indian American now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American nothing, right nothing is left.
    Lastly, your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you have become with all this extreme stories about so called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians. If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred. I guess this ideological hatred against the Turks and Kurds, brought the actual war between the people of Ottoman Empire.

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62. Children gather around for tonight’s happy fairytale.
     
    There was this mythical paradise called Ottoman Empire, where Christians and Muslims lived happily as equals.
    Turks, whom the indigenous Armenians had invited to come in from their homeland near the Altai Mountains, treated their gracious hosts with great respect and love. Armenian boys, girls, and young women were lovingly abducted and subjected to …. lovemaking.
     
    Armenians were allowed to ride horses, same as Turks.
    Armenians were allowed to testify against Turks in court, same as other Muslims.
    Armenians were taxed at the same rate as Turks.
     
    In 1895,  300,000-500,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred by their caring Father, Sultan Hamid.
    In 1909, another 30,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred in Adana. 
    There were regular massacres to show Armenians how much they were loved and appreciated.
     
     
    All that love and harmony came to an abrupt  and tragic end in 1915. Evil foreigners from Salonika, who were not Turks, decided to disrupt the peace and harmony that existed between Armenians and Turks, the Christians and Muslims.  They were not Turks, they were not even Muslims – but presented themselves as such. They were of that “other” religion. They were, umm, ummm,…..,Jooos. Even their leader Mustafa Kemal was a Joo.
     
    So they succeeded in destroying the Ottoman Paradise, exterminated 1.5 million Armenians, several hundred thousand Greeks and Assyrians – and succeeded in blaming it all on Turks: a false, scurrilous accusation.
     
    Go to bed now children. Happy dreams.

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63. Avery jan.. you are the best.. can’t get enough of your posts… i swear you just make these discussion so much interesting.. i truely enjoyed your last post.. You just made Anadolu look so small with his nonsense that I hope he stops embarassing himself over and over again.. it does not seem like he gets the point that his comments sound sooo stupid because his notion of history is soooooooo distracted by what he was fed by the TUrkish govt that it is sickening…thank you..i was laughing… :)

    Gayane

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64. Anadolu- Please STOP… WOW.. i don’t know if you are truly ignorant about the facts of life and hstory or you just being intentionally ignorant and can’t stop yourself from writing soo much garbage?? i don’t get it..

    You said
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages

    ok so you have lived thousands years ago and had a Mesopotamian family friend right? you know how they look like… well if you are that educated, why don’t you give us an example of how Mesopotamians look like because I have no idea… i have never seen one myself… obviously you have in your lifetime, otherwise you would not be so sure that we look like them…

    Why do we look like Turks??? We DONT look like TUrks.. .Turks look like US… unfortunately, indigenous Armenian race was fair skin and light eyes..  you know why this dynamic changed over?? ummmmmmm….welllll… knowing that your capacity of true history is limited or simply just not there, i would say because of rape, forceful marriages and adbuctions of beautiful Armenian women by your barbaric ancestors… your ancestors had a plan.. to mix their genes with Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians.. because these people were simply more beautiful…your race is pleaseant to look at  because of our beautiful women.. you should thank us for giving you good looking genes.. the mixed marriages you speak of is the product of Genocide and not because Armenians were dying to mix with your barbaric ancestors… I know it sounds harsh but reality and truth usually does…… so you stand corrected on this statement…….

    Many Armenian accepted Islam? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? if any of them who accepted Islam is ONLY because they had NO CHOICE.. NO CHOICE you hear me.. don’t act like Armenians were dying to join the Islam and accept that as their religion… They did that to survive from your barbaric ancestors… do you understand that much? No Armenian in their right mind will turn to Islam.. We are Christians and we will remain as such….So you stand corrected on this statement as well.. Where do you get this stuff?? Who provides you this nonsense???….      

    You said:  If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?

    ummmmm because Armenians were already established before the barbarians arrived and it took some time before Turks realized Armenians are better than them and they can’t allow them to live or else … soooo Anadolu to answer your question… Armenians have ALWAYS been superior in their intellect, culture, arts, music, trade than Turks.. maybe after you realize this much, then you will understand why your ancestors attempted to wipe out a race tha they were intimidated of…so don’t act like the Ottomans allowed Armenians to be rich businessmen, or built churches and schools…. so you stand corrected on this statement ….

    I feel like this is a nonstop rollercoaster with your denalists… we turn one and another pops up… Do you mind letting us know where you received your education about Armenian history and GEocide??? I would like to understand where you are coming from and what sources you get your information… i would suggest though..turn to sources OUTSIDE OF your Turkish propaganda pages, and learn from Non-Turkish sources… the information you will learn will enlighten and astonish you… it may be hurtful because you will know the truth but nonetheless it will be very helpful…    who knows ????

    Gayane  
     

      
      

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65. Karekin–great post. Well done.

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66. Anadolu:    We’re not involved in the exchange of official correspondence so you must start your comments with a mandatory salutation ‘Dear’. I take it as a mockery. Please refrain. Least of all I need ‘respect ’ from a Turk whose ancestors buried my paternal relatives alive near Digranakert (Diyarbekir). You’ll soon get rebuttals to each and every historically distortive excuse that you offered for the Turkish mistreatment and genocide of Armenians. Until then, drink a cup of coffee and continue daydreaming about what highly-civilized, peaceful, and human life-respecting nation the Turks are.

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67. Anadol brought up an interesting point regarding genetics. The Turks were asiatic nomads in Central Asia, much more akin to physical attributes of Mongolians and more specifically Uighurs. Along there westward the Turks adopted Islam, mixed with the Persians, (adopted many Persian loan words and customs). During the time the Byzantines were in flux. Through warfare, kidnapping, rape etc, the Seljuks (and later the Osmalis) appropriated the bloodlines of Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks (Kurds also to a degree though at this time they were located in northern Persia what is now northern Iraq)This would be repeated in the Balkans. THe vast majority of Turks are now related more closely to the aforementioned peoples than their Central Asia forbearers. Some Turks (though few) have retained their Central Asia lineage- namely the Yuruks and some minor Turcoman family groups now living in Central Anatolia. These tribesmen followed a century or so after the initial Seljuk and Osman push. That being said, beyond language the all the trappings of Turkish culture, cuisine, architecture, etc come from Persians, Greek, Armenians, Assyrians, Slav. You cannot fault them for this. You can only fault them for trying to hide it 

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68. Gayane:

    Thanks, but my fairytale was directed at someone that posts under an Armenian name.
    Read his  post in this thread carefully: there is a subtle message that has been proffered previously and to which I object to. If you are not familiar with his agenda, you need to take the time to read  his previous posts. He is not crude and obvious as most of the Turks posting here, but far more effective in spreading a defeatist and divisive message.

    Gor and Tigran are handling Anadolu: he/she is in good hands.

    (thanks again for the kind words)

     

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69. Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European or Greek or anything else. That is a fantasy imposed on them by the Americans and British to justify their incursion into Armenian territory and make Armenians feel ashamed at their own past and history. Armenians have been an indigenous people, probably since their arrival from the south (as per the legend of Hayk), perhaps 10,000 or more, years ago. 

    As for the myths that are part of today’s Turkish nationalist consciousness…let’s not forget that these lies have been pounded into the heads of Turkish children for several generations. It is not unlike the tradition in America that until relatively recently – the 1970s ? – always called the native American Indians ‘savages’…only because they fought to defend their homeland.  Those left in Turkey after 1923 were not even able or allowed to read anything of their past, because the Arabic script and Osmanli Turkish became not only foreign to them, but incomprehensible. History was not offered in translation, but reinvented thru the myths and racist fantasies of Ataturk and his cohorts.  As a result, several generations of modern Turks have no idea who really built their country…or that their cultural patrimony was developed, not by Turks, but by Armenians.  One small, but key example is Hampartzum Limondjian…who devised the musical notation for all classical Turkish music that is still in use today. Another is the Balyan family of architects, or Sinan…who designed and built some of the most beautiful mosques in the world. Armenians are an important part of Turkish history. No one should ever forget them or their contributions. And, if they need to be reminded…Armenians are more than willing to offer remedial education. 

     

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70. Avery jan.. I totally know what you are saying now.. I know exactly who the story was for.. I got it..:) and I agree with you.. but to my surprise, his last few comments were actually pro-Armenian.. :)

    I am confident Gor and Tigran will handle this matter very well..:)

    Gayane   

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71. “Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European[…]. Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.”
     
    —-Six illiterate blunders in one sentence:
     
    (1)Of course.    Karekin-efendi the Historian has already determined—while international historians are still debating the origins of Armenians because origins of ancient peoples are hard to ascertain for sure—that of course Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian.
     
    (2)Armenians are Mesopotamians.   New magnum opus by Karekin-efendi the Historian never in any chronicle or scholarly publication existed before he popped off on these pages. The itinerary of the Noah’s Ark, i.e. where it was built and from where it came to the mountains of Ararat and landed are still hotly debated by true historians, but the newly-cooked ones already know that Haik, the grandson of one Noah’s sons, Japeth, came from the south.
     
    (3)Armenians are Anatolians.   What is Anatolia? Never has such a geographical toponym appeared in ancient chronicles until Turks started to name eastern parts of Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau as ‘Anatolia’ or in Turkish ‘Anadolu’ (also a pen name which a Turkish denialist uses in this thread). Armenians  have their own, unique geographical location called Armenian Plateau in eastern Asia Minor. There has never been ‘Anatolia’ involved in this in ancient history.
     
    (4)Armenians are Caucasian.   Only if related to race, but I don’t think Karekin-efendi the Historian meant race, but geographical affinity, rather. Armenians do not belong to Caucasian peoples because they have no access to the Caucasus mountain range, as Georgians and all those numerous mountainous peoples residing there. The greater part of the Armenian homeland is in eastern parts of Asia Minor, what are now eastern provinces of Turkey after they were savagely emptied of Armenians in 1915. Even during the Soviet times, the Russians called the region where the Armenian Soviet republic situated ‘Transcaucasia’, meaning: what lies beyond the Caucasus mountain range. This said, Georgians are much more Caucasian by nature than Armenians.
     
    (5)Armenians have never been European.   Only in as much as they have never been Mesopotamian or Anatolian or Caucasian. However, Armenians were the easternmost neighbors and sometimes parts of three great European empires: the Roman, the Byzantine Greek, and the Russian.
     
    (6)Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.    I should like to see any evidence of the American and British’ incursion in to Armenia. Would be humbly grateful to Karekin-efendi the Historian for his enlightenment of this ‘Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian’ Armenian intellectual.

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72. Karekin,  Why don’t you read further into the history of the Armenians.  Part of the Armenians did migrate from Thrace as well as from what is north-eastern of today’s Greece as well as the indeginous people living in the Highlands of Armenia (the Haiasas and the Nairians), they were mixed with the Urartians who were located in the Van region within the Armenian Pltateau.

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73. Correction in my above post.  Other than Thrace, Armenians also came from of what is today’s north-western part of Greece before migrating to the Armenian Plateau, much before the Bronze Age.  As I said before and others too in here that we are at least 5,000 year old civilization if not more.

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74. Are you ready, Anadolu? Here I come.
     
    “Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later.”
    — Partly agree. There are also representatives of human race that originated in their unique environment.
     
    “Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands.”
    — Partly agree. Other conquered lands, scorched them, devastated structures and cultural edifices, and caused massive loss of human life.
     
    “Before Turks arrived, there was war as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia.”
    — Those wars didn’t bring destruction at a scale remotely reminiscent to what nomadic Turks brought to the region. Also, at those times there was no such a toponym as Anatolia. This is a Turkish creation to indicate a part of Asia Minor and, especially, replace the Armenian Highland (or Plateau) where Armenians have lived for millennia with this cooked-up term.
     
    “Byzantine Greek [levied] heavy taxation and […] badly treated non-Greek citizens.”
    — The major disagreement with the Greeks that Armenians had was bilateral misinterpretations of the nature of Jesus Christ. That is, murders, plots, and sometimes a few small-scale wars that were waged between the Byzantines and Armenians were in larger part related to a Christian doctrine that the Chalcedon Assembly adopted, but Armenians rejected. However, we know no such thing as humiliating treatment of non-Greeks in the Byzantine empire similar to the treatment of non-Turk millets in the Ottoman empire. In case you don’t know, be aware that several of Byzantine emperors were Armenians. Can you imagine such a thing in the Ottoman empire?
     
    “If after the Turks settled and with it they brought great devastation and mass death over centuries, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?”
    — The answer is very simple. Every metropolis tends to utilize to the best of its abilities the wealth, industrious talents, and cultural achievements of the peripheries. On this, I’d agree with you: Ottoman empire was no different from the Brits or the Spaniards. Churches and schools existed because, like I said, restricted practice of religion and teaching in national language were the only rights that were granted to Armenians. At the same time, Armenians were barred from all other basic civil rights: representation in legislatures, holding an office in the government, legal protection, equal taxes, equal representation in the courts, arms-carrying for self-protection from pillaging Muslim bands, etc. I never heard of Armenians working in the Ottoman government; for the government, yes, for example architects Balian who designed and constructed the Dolmabahçe Palace, but in the government – is a fantasy. Further, Armenians were rich tradesmen first and foremost because of their superior wit and industriousness as compared to Turks. Why were they allowed to function? For the same old imperialistic reason: to enrich the state, as unbearably higher taxes were imposed on Armenians than on Turks. All is very simple.
     
    “If Armenians are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accepted the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians.”
    —This is sheer rubbish. No hypothesis exists that’d suggest that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. I can understand why Armenians, Persians, or Greeks resemble each other, after all of these three nations are ones of the most ancient peoples inhabiting the Earth. But the fact that Turks appeared on the world map only in the 11-12th centuries suggests that it is you who look like Armenians, not the other way round. Do a simple chronology, please.
     
    “Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed, killed, and totally annihilated South America, British who murdered peaceful American Indians.”
    — In the French case, it was a colonization war in which, sadly, the French army used force that led to killings of Algerians to repress popular demonstrations and armed rebellions against French domination. No such demonstrations or armed rebellions were registered on the part of unarmed, disorganized, and mostly rural Ottoman Armenians. In the Spanish Conquistadors’ case, the prevailing majority of South American natives became victims of contagious diseases that the Spaniards brought from Europe. Yes, there were killings, too, but a few Conquistadors couldn’t possibly kill hundreds of thousands of natives. Diseases and domestic civil wars were the primary reason. Likewise, in the case of American Indians: there were killings, but the bulk of victims had also died from diseases. Here, you conveniently forget one major difference in all these cases that Turks so love to bring in to justify their genocide of Armenians. Neither Algerians, nor Incas and Mayas, nor American Indians were citizens of the same country as their oppressors. The French were colonizing outsiders. The Spaniards were colonizing outsiders. The British were colonizing outsiders. In the case of Ottoman Armenians, 2-2.2 million people were savagely slaughtered by their own government. Do you appreciate this major difference?
     
    “Where are Indian Americans now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American, nothing is left.”
    — With all due respect for the American Indians, they did not create structures, or educational, medical, and charitable facilities, or religious institutions, or cultural monuments, or developed pastures, or trade facilities, or business offices. Therefore, almost nothing, except for their villages that are now preserved in reservations, could have been left on Indian lands after the arrival of the British and French. Armenians, in contrast, had a whole ancient civilization developed on their lands. What’s left of it now?

    “Your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you’ve become with all extreme stories about so-called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians.”
    — Have Armenians exterminated Turks as a nation? If yes, why are you 70 million now? How many Armenians are left in Turkey? 60,000? What happened to 2-2.2 million? If this is not an extreme reality, then what is it? For Armenians, these are not “stories”, these are survivor and witness accounts that were passed to us by our grandparents about the brutality and barbarism of the Ottoman Turks. One can go insane when he reads what indescribable tortures and mutilations your forefathers inflicted on women, girls, children, elders, and even the unborn. If this is not brutality and barbarism, then what is it? I can imagine there were inter-ethnic, inter-communal clashes between different ethnic groups in which Turks were killed, too. But you again conveniently miss the major point: Armenians were not the governing regime of the Ottoman empire and therefore wish not and could not commit the crime on the genocidal scale, as Turks did. No inter-ethnic clashes or grievances in a multi-ethnic empire can justify savage extermination of a whole people by the government. This is what Turks stubbornly fail to hear, because it’s not soothing their ears.
     
    “If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred.”
    — I don’t hate you personally, or any ordinary modern Turk, for that matter. But I hate your unrepentant murderer-state and your denialist government. What would you expect me, a descendant of a genocide survivor, to do for the memory of millions of butchered people? Unconditionally love Turkey?!

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75. Seervart..the theory of ‘Thracian’ origins has been disproved. You need to study the newest history and particularly, the development of languages, especially proto-IndoEuropean. It shows that this entire tree of languages originated in the Armenian highlands, aka, the Armenian plateau, at least 7500 years ago, but possibly as much as 9000 years. If anything points to an indigenous, Armenian origin, this is it. Armenia is not called the cradle of civilization for nothing – it truly was! 

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76. Gor jan.. BRAVO.. absolutely excellent post.. wow… that post just shot all the room to wiggle but then knowing denialists like Anadolu, I am sure they will have something stupid to say EVEN after all that data provided…..thank you.. i truly learned alot..

    Gayane

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77. Seervart, there are several hypotheses on the origin of Armenians; Thracia as a point of migration of a part of proto-Armenians being one of them. Also, north-western part of Greece is where roughly Thracia was situated. Therefore, Thracia and north-western part of modern Greece are not two different locations from where a proto-Armenian tribe might have traveled to the Armenian Plateau. There are other theories, too, however I never heard of Mesopotamia as a migration point of Armenians. In general, a hypothesis cannot be disproved or approved because it is a hypothesis, but what’s becoming increasingly certain is that more international historians and anthropologists tend to agree that the Armenian Plateau might have been the indigenous birthplace of the Armenian nation, where Indo-European Armen and Haik tribes amalgamated with Urartian tribes of Hayasa, Nairi, etc. thus resulting in the modern Armenian nation. This hypothesis is the strongest because it reconfirms that Armenians are not a migrant, but an indigenous nation, a strong argument against Turkish allegations that, just like Turks, Armenians, too, have migrated from somewhere, even if several thousand years earlier than newly-popped up Turks.

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78. Hi Gor, Thank you for the explanation.  I as well have never heard that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. It was the Mitranis.  Of course we are the indigenous nation of the Armenian Plateau and have amalgamated with the Urartu tribes.  The Turks say many things; but history knows it that they came a 1000 years ago from the Mongolian stepes into Armenia and the Hellene territories.

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79.  Anadolu, During the CUP there was one brilliant Armenian statetsman in the Turkish parliament, and his name was Krikor Zohrab.  He was a great orator and respected by everyone in the parliament as he was an eloquent speaker and thought the Turkish people great many things as deputy in the Turkish parliament; but even that didn’t make him immune to be deported with the 300 Armenian intellectuals from Istanbul.  He was taken to Diyarbekir and killed on June 3, 1915.

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80. Gor…you might want to factor in Armenian legend, which says that Hayk came from the south, after he was expelled by Bel (perhaps, Baal?). This has yet to be disproven, but if true, I suspect this legend is one of creation and stretches back into the realm of human prehistory. It has now been shown, with the oldest shoe and oldest wine vats, that even at 5-6 thousand years ago, Armenians were cultivating grapes and tanning leather, which are two very sophisticated technologies. We also know that the petroglyphs at Metsamor have been dated to at least 10,000 years ago, but perhaps sa much as 40,000.

    And yes, while several Byzantine emperors were of Armenian origin, so were many Ottoman sultans, who always had non-Turkish mothers…often Armenian, or Greek, or Circassian. This is a known fact. So, quite a bit of Armenian blood ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces   And, just to put icing on the cake, the head eunuch who protected the harem…the aghassi…was always a super protective and loyal Armenian.  

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81. Having non-Turk mothers, as in the case of some Ottoman Sultans, pales in comparison with being 100% Armenian, as in the case of some Byzantine Emperors (e.g. Leo V, known as ‘The Armenian’). I only know that Bloody Assassin Abdulhamid II might have had an Armenian mother. Who are other Ottoman Sultans so that we might say that ‘quite a bit of Armenian blood’ ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces? Likewise, eunuchs protecting Turkish harems (big deal!) pale in comparison with army commanders, generals, and court merchants that Armenians produced in Byzantine Greece.

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82. It is interesting that individuals that try to convince other Armenians of the supposed benefits of the Ottoman Turk rule over Armenians, consider it a high achievement for Armenians that head eunuchs  were super protective, were loyal, and drum roll please – were always Armenian. Apparently in the twisted Turkophile universe this is considered some kind of high achievement for an Armenian. What is next, that the most famous harem madam was also Armenian ?
     
     
    It would also be interesting to juxtapose the list of famous, such as they are, Armenians under Turk Ottoman rule with  that of Armenians of high achievement under Russian Tsarist rule, and thence under Soviet/Russian rule: World famous Admirals, Marshalls, Generals, Scientists, Inventors, Painters, Artists, …….
     
     
    The same individuals who glorify the alleged benefits of Ottoman rule over Armenians, never tire in their campaign to convince us of the alleged damage Russians have caused to the Armenian nation and Armenians.

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83. Indeed, Avery.  A Turkophile non-Turk is oftentimes more harmful than a genuine Turk.
     
    P.S.  Just realized that I paraphrased Lenin, who once said: “Russified aliens are always much more Russian than the Russians themselves.”

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84. Seervart Jan, several years ago I happened to meet the Turkish Consulate in his office, Los Angeles California for taking care of their computer systems. I opened the issue of Armenians. His response was  ” everything is because of money,” I repeated myself just make sure he understood me. His response still was the same. You are right. But the problem with Turkish Genocide against Armenian is that they cannot redress Armenians by just paying money. That is why only way Armenians can agree to settle with Turks would be to returne our Wetern Armenia.

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85. Papken jan, The Ittihadist CUPs right after 1908 when they took over the government, the next year they attacked Adana.  Why did they attack and had the Armenian people of Adana annihilated?  Because Adana was the most richest community within the Turkish Republic.  That’s why the Ittihadists right away attacked Adana, for their riches and for their money.  The reason of the Armenian Genocide with the bloodsucking bloodthirsty hands of the Ittihadists was for money.

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86. Papken, Yes of course I more than agree with you.  The Turks must pay the blood money of our 2 million martyrs that they atrociously and mercilessly annihilated with the return of our anscestral homeland.  Reparations must be paid in full by the Turkish government with our Western Armenian Highlands.  We want reparations in the form of our Kars, Ardahan, Ararad Mountain, Erzerum, Erzinga, Van, Sassun, Moush, Bingoel, Palu, Kharpert and Dikranagerd.

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87. Anadolu
    I feel that your initial condescending remarks on the lost Armenian churches and schools are out of place. You wrote: why was it then called “ottoman empire” and not “armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire?” Don’t you know that the Armenians lost all these churches and schools in spite of the solemn promise in the decision of  deportation of may 27, 1915, that Armenian property would be respected?
    Regarding the arrests of april 24, 1915: As far as I know  it is claimed that the arrests on april 24, 1915, concerned  political leaders that the ittihadists wanted ut of the way as a potential illoyal group. If this was so their action is in line with much of the military thinking at the time and later (the US interned all Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbour) But here the analogy stops. What happened to these arrested Armenians later?  Kemal Cicek, the Turkish association of historians, claims that the arrested were  only were terrorists. In the paper of his that I have access to however he only names one, Komitas, thecomposer,  and Cicek claims he was a terrorist. Komitas was released, by the way. Obviously, the text of Cicek is very unsatisfactory and betrays the problems Turks have with encountering their past. On the other hand, it seems that all the arrested were not killed. Grigoris Balakian in the “Armenian Golgotha” provides the names of 131 Armenians who were arrested on april 24, based on the information he collected. Out of these 48 survived and 12 more returned to Istanbul, from where some of them were able to flee to country, and some simply stayed as part of the Istanbul Armenians who never were deported and survived the whole war. – But this is only a small part of the total picture. Armenian deportees were not fed, were massacred in thousands and tens of thousands, and died in the numbers of hundreds of thousands, if not more. Moreover, in spite of lots of constant reports sent to the authorities about massacres, those who massacred were hardly ever brought to justice. I can only find a handful examples of Muslims punished for atrocities against Armenians. What does this tell about the attitude and possible intentions of the government? This is is not a rhetorical question on my part. How do you interpret this, Anadolu?
        

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88. I don’t know of any moslem dominated country on this planet that treats christians as equals. Could someone enlighten me?

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89. The aftermath of 1915, into the post-1923 era, actually might tell us even more about the true intentions of the CUP…it was murder and theft, on a grand, unimaginable scale…and, it continued to put fear into the Armenians of Turkey for meny, many years.  The state appropirated all abandonned Armenian properties, handed them over to CUP and Ataturk loyalists and worked very hard to hide its actions, not only from its own population, but from international observers, as well. In their minds, this must be the perfect crime….and, there are lots of accomplices…including the US, the UK and others.

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90. You are correct in stating that Darwin jan.. i have not encountered any Muslim countries treating Christians as equals either.. on the contrary, they look down and simply void anyone who is not Muslim.. So i would love to be enlightened as well..

    Ragnar-if i did not know you personall and up close, i would say you may be leaning on our side.. even though your post to Anadolu was informative to him; i still don’t feel you are on the side of the truth…thank you nonetheless.. however a correction.. there were 2 million if not more innocent Armenians who were deported, murdered, raped and killed vs thousands upon thousands…  

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91. Gayane; That is why we must build those churches in Karabakh. In Turkey, just about the only vestige of our homeland that wasn’t covered up were our churches. Every Armenian on this planet sould understand that should Karabakh fall to Azerbaijan, another genocide will follow. I’ve lost count as to how many genocides we’ve suffered but I would say we’re well into double figures. The original home of the Armenians was in Nakichevan and thanks to ther Azerbaijanis all we have to show for it are a pile of broken cemetery stones.  

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92. Gayane, let us not repeat our old discussions. For me it was natural to adress Anadolu since I feel he was onesided and because am seeking discussions with Turks or people upholding “the Turkish point of view”, not only with Armenians. But let me repeat one question which I have asked before. Why is so imperative to classify me as ONE OF US, rather than ONE OF THEM? Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind? Second question: how will you find out anything about where I belong except by judging my opinions? third: havent you in your personal life come across people who partly agree, partly diagree with you? You revert again and again to the question of WHAT SIDE IS RAGNAR ON. Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life? Or do you think that the particular characteristics of the Armenian cause makes this question so pressing? Yes, maybe it is the last point. The feeling of betrayal and new betrayals are common to many Armenians, I believe. I am sorry for this.

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93. No one is glorifying anything, but your and my ancestors played a huge rold in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire, whether you like it or not, from the very top to the very bottom of the social ladder. you may not find it appealing, but it’s the truth. I say this to underscore Armenian ownership in the Ottoman Empire, not to denigrate it.  This is what you are trying to recapture, isn’t it?  If it belonged to us then, it makes no sense to trash it. When you compare how people were living in other societies around the world at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. THe Armenian case is totally different, and in fact, was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and native Americans who were, in fact, slaves…living and dying in chains…for hundreds of years. Even with all its faults, of which there were many, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects and conquered peoples. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it. Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive, but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.  

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94. this one for the Turkophile agents who, while constantly digging up dirt on Armenia on these pages, conveniently ignore the filth that’s bubbling just below the surface in Turkey.

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-athlete-claims-she-was-hit-for-wearing-shorts-on-public-bus-2011-08-09

    this is how the allegedly tolerant Turks treat even one of their own co-religionists. 
    and this is in Constantinople (aka Istanbul) an arguably Europeanized city.
    as I have said before: the Kemalist experiment has  ended in failure.

    Turks are reverting to their core Islamic roots. Interesting times a’coming.

     

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95. Ragnar.. i really did not want on this path again but i have no choice but to repeat myself.. You know alot how i see you as a whole …and of course I am going to brng the past because the present has not changed since the past… so until there is change everything else remains the same my Norwegian friend…in addition, we had a long discussions on previous topics in the past…

    Here is the problem: anyone can have their own ways of thinking and i don’t have to agree with everyone and vice versa.. the only difference about your argument in regards to ” I don’t have to agree with you on everything” is this::::…… YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE when it on ARmenian Genocide.. You CANT play both sides Ragnar which is what you are doing SIR…so stop this diplomatic BS … We are not dealing wth two major sports teams where you can change sides and cheer for one then change your mind and cheer for the other whenever you feel like….you can NOT be WISHY WASHY on this issue Ragnar…   We are dealing with murderes and murdered….. you can’t be friends with the murderer state and then turn around and pretend to be friends with the nation that almost got wiped out.. THAT AIN”T GOING TO FLY .. and that is what you are trying to do and it frustrates me out of my wits… it is not about trying to have a conversation with TUrks and trying to understand both sides.. THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ALREADY.. and you working in TUrkey and writing your research paper gave you plenty of information about Turks and TUrkey I am sure… so i don’t get your diplomatic approach to Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind  … WE already know what happened.. it is YOU who needs to make up your mind and stick to it.. and so far I have not seen it.. unless that happened and we don’t know about it…

    Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life– I not even even in my later 30s Ragnar so no i may not know all the complesities of social life… however, what i DO KNOW is this:.. a man at your age would appreciate the difference between siding with justice vs Turkish denialists who dine and wine you and of course throw the green paper at you.. the mighty dollar….sorry if this hurts but that is what I believe…

    Have a nice day sir..

    Gayane  

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96. Avery….do you mean to say you’d prefer hard boiled Kemalism, with its deep CUP and military undertones to something else?  Be careful what you wish for…because the republican period was anything but wonderful for Armenians, or any other minority in Turkey.   

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97. Avery jan… thanks for the link… I read the story…can’t say I am surprised…

    Interesting time a’coming indeed…

    Gayane  

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98. here is one more (via Asbarez.com): Turks becoming more and more tolerant every day.

    http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2011/08/05/feature-03

    take the time to read the survey in detail and contemplate the percentages: it’s very illuminating.
    this is what would have happened to Artsakhtsi had they lost, and will happen to Artsakhtsi if Azeris ever gain the upper hand. This is why Nakhichevan went from majority Armenian  to 0% Armenian.
     

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99. Gayane, I did not want to go this path again since I never even got you to refer my points of view correctly. But I will repeat once more. Of course the case of the murders and the murdered are central. In addition the case of authorities who, as far as I can ascertain, almost never prosecuted those who committed massacres against your ancestors. This is terrible and unpardonable. And I have really used lot of time to tell Turks that they must relate honestly to their own past. But I stopped answering your posts because in a way you are not doing dialogue, you are doing a monologue. Certainly you cannot negotiate truth with money or negotiate morality with money. By the way my whole professional life I have worked for state money and always I have been criticizing my government regarding my field: immigration and refugees. Maybe you experience me as wishy washy beause you never cared to listen to what I actually say? Isnt that making it easy for yourself. But, my friend Gayane, maybe I am mistaken, both in my views,(in some aspects, I cannot imagine that I will ever change my opinion completely in your direction, as I know you) and maybe I am mistaken in my belief that you are unable to refer my views correctly. We should admit the possibility of mistake, shouldnt we? Only the future can show if we are willing to go on exchanging words.  

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100. Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.

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101. Karekin, you again? Then lend me you ears.
      
     Re: “[…]your and my ancestors played a huge role in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire.”
     —-As if the Ottoman empire was an Eldorado land that all the native peoples who inhabited the Balkans, Asia Minor, Middle East, and the Arabian Peninsula were longing for millennia for the lousy Seljuk nomads and filthy Ottoman Turks to come invade and colonize them. Underscoring Armenian “ownership” in the Ottoman Empire, if it is your intention, creates a delusion that there was no millennia-old Armenian history or Armenian statehood before Armenia’s colonization by the Ottomans. It also creates a delusion that Armenians actually “owned” something in the Ottoman empire. Aside from small- and medium-size businesses whose revenues were unbearably taxed more than those of the Turks and apart of religious and educational facilities that functioned under restrictions, Armenians owned practically nothing in the Ottoman empire: no representation in the legislature, no representation in the government, no legal protection, no judiciary protection, no physical protection against the murderer government, no security against the maraudering Muslim bands in the rural areas, etc.
      
     Re: “When you compare how people were living in other societies at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. The Armenian case was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and Native Americans who were, in fact, slaves.”
     —-If we imagine for a split second that “Armenians were doing quite well” despite the lack of physical protection and basic civil rights, it was the result of their wit, industriousness, and circumspection, not the genial treatment by Muslim Turks. All of the colonized peoples in the Ottoman empire—Slavs, Arabs, Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians—were, in fact, slaves and serfs. You cannot be anything other than slave or serf when you are colonized. As simple as that. The situation of Armenians was even worse, because not only were they annihilated as a race, but their historic lands were stolen as well. Although I mourn hundreds of thousands of Christians that were savagely slaughtered by the Turks, at least the bulk of the population was able to survive and major parts of their historic homelands remained intact. Since you so like to parrot (or advance?) the Turkish denialist clichés about the wonderful life of Armenians in the Ottoman empire and make comparisons with Native Americans, then compare the terrible fate Armenians have suffered with that of other nations. It is obvious to everyone, except for you as a Turkish lickspittle, that at least in almost all other cases, the bulk of the population survived and the bulk of their historic homelands remained intact.
      
     Re: “Even with all its faults, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it.”
     —-Dead wrong. Even an uneducated look at how imperial Russian and Soviet empires treated Armenians, what basic civil rights were endowed to them, and what major contributions Armenians were able to make in those years, proves that you’re either a complete dilettante or a blind-folded Turkophile.
      
     Re: “Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive”
     —-Thank you for admitting the obvious.
      
     Re: “but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.”
     —-Of course, it was different. Russian and Chinese serfs, while enduring sufferings and physical abuses, largely preserved their physical existence and on their own homelands.

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102. Ragnar, rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?

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103. I’ll answer your question indirectly, Karekin.
      
      
     The reason I post the links that show the underside of Turkey is to prove that you have malice in your heart towards Armenia.
     In all of your posts I have yet to see one negative regardingTurkey. Even one or two mild rebukes are swamped by an avalanche of praise.
     At the same time, you never lose an opportunity to publicize bad news aboutArmenia, juxtaposed with never ending praise forTurkey.
     I have yet to see a positive sentiment from you towards Armenia. You even manage to put a negative spin on undeniably positive developments.
     That tells me all I need to know. Your posting  behaviour is your calling card. Occasional posts that do not deny the AG show that you are smarter than the other Agents. Read my fictional 30-point MIT guideline in this thread: I know most of the tricks of the trade of  enemy  Agents.
     I graduated with honors from the Armenian KGB’s (at the time) Directorate of Psychological Warfare, Psyops & Counter-Psyops, Disinformation & Counter-Disinformation School of Advanced Studies.
      
      
     Another reason I post negative news about Turkey is to counter you incessant attempts to divide and demoralize our side.
     I want our people to see the rot that exists in Turkey  just below the artificial sheen created by Turks, their friends, and their Agents.
     Many people read  sensationalist headlines  about Armenia and reach fantastic and false conclusions.
     The Forbes disinformation peace is a classic: I demonstrated in this thread, with hard Per-Capita-GDP numbers, obtained from CIA public site,  that their conclusion was bogus and rank disinformation. Why did they publish it ? A psyops campaign against Armenia. I have lived in the US long enough to know that most of mainstream media here serves the interests of the American version of the deep state. Demoralize and divide the world, so that Big Money boys can loot it’s wealth with no resistance and no accounting.
      
     Պղտոր ջրերում ձուկ որսալ:
      
     I know that on a piece of paper 1+1=2. However, human history is full of small groups of men and women overcoming impossible odds with belief in themselves and unshakable determination.
     When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it.
     When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.
      
     Anyone that doubts this,  I invite to find and carefully study pictures of Astrasktsi warriors in 1988, 1989, 1990,… the years before the tide turned in their/our favour around 1993-1994. Study their faces: there is no hint of fear, or panic, or dejection, or demoralization. There is only calm, almost serene, determination. It is almost eerie. How can these guys be this fearless ? What kind of superhuman genes were planted in these ordinary looking men ? To appreciate what you are looking at, understand this: what is not shown in the pictures are masses of Azeri troops and tanks a couple of clicks away. Yet these guys are standing around and planning as if it’s a bunch of kids with toy guns that are over the hill. As if they are discussing a turkey  shoot (bird hunting). That’s the kind of self confidence and belief in ourselves that we need to propagate to all our people.
      
      
     Back to what I want forTurkey:
      
     I want Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces, so it no longer presents a clear and present danger to my homeland and my people, my brothers and sisters that are trying to live there in peace.
     So that  Turkey is no longer an existential threat to Armenia & Artsakh.
     I would very much like for the Turks to go back to their own homeland at the base of the Altai Mountains.
     They don’t belong in the Armenian Highlands. They don’t belong where they are sitting now.
     Their arrival has been an unmitigated disaster for the region at large and Humanity.
     They have done nothing but bring death, destruction and misery to the indigenous people.
     Even today, they go around threatening, threatening to invade, or invading their neighbors. It never stops.
      
      
     Ex: after having invaded the Greek Island of Cyprus 500 years ago and populating it with Turks, after invading it again in 1974, they are now threatening Cyprus again for daring to explore for oil and gas in their own (Cyprus) territorial waters.
      
      
     I realize of course  that 50 million or so ethnic Turks living in Turkey today cannot just vanish into thin air.
     However, a Turkey broken up into 3-4 pieces can be contained and can no longer present a threat to its neighbors, and most importantly to Armenia.
      
      
     So I don’t really care if it ends up being Islamist, Kemalist, Fascist, Communist, whatever.
     As long as it breaks up into manageable pieces. I wish no death or misery to the ordinary Turks and other ethnicities, and wish the breakup takes place with no harm to non-combatants.
      
      
     And contrary to your propaganda, the signs are there that the fissures inherent in that artificially created country are opening up wider.
     The signs are similar to the former Soviet Union. A few years before it disintegrated, the external image of it was a solid monolith, impervious to any force.
     It was an artificial country held together with duct tape: there was no inherent national cohesion, similar to say Germany or France, and of course Armenia.
     Different nationalities were being forced to live together at gunpoint. Same as in the Ottoman Empire. Same as in today’sTurkey.
      
      
     The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza can no longer be contained. The more rights they get the more they’ll demand. Independence is only a matter of time. In this day and age suppression will not work either. And of course they are too numerous to be wiped out like Armenians were.
     Once Kurds and Zaza break free, the breakup of Turkey will pick up pace.
     Turkey has many, many enemies. When they go down like the Ottoman Empire, the long knives will come out to carve it up.
     And there are no Germans and Bolsheviks to save the Turks this time from ending up with a rump state.

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104. Bravo, Avery.  You are a true patriot.

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105. It’s just a matter of time when Turkey will be carved up between Kurdistan, Greece, and Wilsonian Armenia. I have no doubt in my mind that this scenario is already at play. Turks benefitted inexcusably long from invading, looting, and mass murdering more civilized, cultured, and nobler peoples inhabiting Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Armenian Plateau. Time to pick up the tab.

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106. Boyajian:       I think we’ve known Ragnar long enough to foretell what he’d have to say even without having to gaze into a crystal ball. I’d venture into predicting his answer or a variation thereof. It was a colossal crime on the part of the Turks (note: no denomination of the crime). The result of forced deportations and mass murders was genocidal, but the genocidal intent of the central Ottoman Turkish authorities is hard to prove. Armenians need to engage in a dialogue with the Turks so Turks can admit the guilt (for what, if the crime is not denominated?) and apologize. Now let me extrapolate this possible response or a variation thereof on the recent killings on the Utoya Island. It was a colossal crime (omitting the name, which is, clearly a heinous terrorist act). The result was homicidal but the intent of Anders Behring Brevik is hard to prove. Instead of taking him to custody, the police and the Norwegian society needed to conduct dialogue with him so he could come forward and apologize for the crime (again, with no specific name). Such a standpoint is just another variation of postponing justice for Armenians, Can we ever imagine that as a result of a dialogue with largely brainwashed Turks on the ratio 10:70 (in millions, representing roughly the population of Armenians and Turks), and knowing too well that no criminal—on the state or individual level—will ever accept the guilt voluntarily, Turks can ever admit the guilt which will expose their nation as the nation of barbarians: mass murderers, torturers, mutilators, children-killers, rapists, looters, and thieves?! This is just another variation at delaying justice for us.

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107. mjm, it’s always good to read your comments.  You’re right of course, based on Ragnar’s previous writing, that he is likely to spare Turkey it’s full responsibility.  But let’s see if he offers anything new.

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108. MJM– We truly missed you…Always a pleasure reading your comments…Well said…:)

     Boyajian jan– Truly missed you too…Can’t get enough of your comments…Well said..:)

     Avery jan– Excellent post… xosq chunem aselu.. got goosebumps.. and I am with you 110%.. 

     It is like the good ol’ days when all three of us where in one of the longest discussion in the AW history involving Ragnar N… to be honest with you, he has not changed and I knew exactly what he would come back with.. he is singing his old song… no surprise there…     

     Ragnar-  actually it is more like YOU are having a monologue with us than me with you.. I don’t see any diologue between you and us.. do you???    oh and we know very well what you won’t agree with me on… according to you there was no Genocide… and I say there WAS a Genocide.. well until you make up your mind whether or not it was a Genocide you will remain the same culprit and denialist… sorry if that hurts…

     Gayane

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109. Boyajian, yes, its a pleasure that you are with us. I was afraid that you would disappear after I told that I am working on a book. But Anahit I have not seen except that there was a “Anahit” in Daily Zaman some time ago. The new thing of course is that I write on a book and I want to say something about my dialogue with Turks and Armenians. Ideally I would like to cite “mjm”, “boyajian”, “gayane” and certainly “Karekin”, but as I said I would ask for your special permission to do so, even if you all have assumed names (maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
     Yes, Gayane maybe I engage in a monologue, too! I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good arguments. But I have other ideas that are changing or being more nuanced. But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?
     Mjm, good to hear from you. Yes, you refer my opinions  reasonably  correctly. No,I am not  certain about what crime, even if we restrict ourself to Talaat’s “confession”. You know his posthumous autobiography in which he confesses that he for political reasons – not to antagonize Turks and Kurds who hated Armenians – abstained from prosecuting people who massacred Armenian deportees. If this is a true picture of his intentions, which it maybe is not. To my mind he here confesses to a crime. Regarding WHAT CRIME, this is a decision for which I have no competence. I am now reading both the Rwandan judgements and some judgements in the Srebrenitsa case, and this is complex. But I feel you want me to say: “Yes, it was genocide” without any qualifications. This is more like saying “I believe in God, but I know very little about him. It is a BELIEF…”. The alternatives are crime against humanity, genocide, war crime, and all divided into “crime”, “abetting crime”, “not hindering crime”, and so on.
     I participated here because I did not like Anadolu’s way of reasoning, so I answered. But if we can find something sensible to discuss, I am always interested.

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110. That’s it, Boyajian.        I mean Ragnar’s response. If through lengthy dialogues with us the guy still sticks to his guns, himself being a Nordmenn not a Turk, what could we expect from his proposed ‘dialogue’ with 70 mln brainwashed Turks representing a murderer unrepentant state about some ‘crime’ and some ‘intent’ or the lack of thereof or some apology for the Turkish crime against humanity (Allies’ term in 1915) and genocide (Lemkin’s and subsequently international term after 1943) that even a Nordmenn shies to admit?

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111. Ehhhh… Ragnar.. same ol’ Ragnar.. nothing has changed and you wonder why we can’t have a dialogue with you?

     You said:   maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
      For your own information.. how do you know if the posters here don’t use their real names, or their initials or abbreviations of their names.. why are you looking to rip some benefits from us for your book? I would not want to be part of your book… knowing you are trying tint and come up with your scientific reasons when you have no connection whats so ever with such subject..this matter is more emotional and common sense than scientific.. but you already know that….

     I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good arguments— This one sentence tells me great deal.. that YOU definintely were and are engaged in monologue because my friend Avery and Boyajian gave you PLENTY of GOOD ARGUMENTS SIR .. PLENTY.. no denial there but yet you still play your old flute….

     But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  Yes of course I have a formula just like everyone here on these discussions… and the formula is, you ready? i am sure you NEVER heard of this or read about it.. but i am going to tell you again and again and again and again and again……

     Ottoman Empire= Genocide against my people, Armenians…. 1909-1924= Attempted and half way succeeded of the Annihiliation and Murder of my nation, the Armenian Nation   1915=OTTOMAN TURKISH GENOCIDE OF THE WESTERN AND EASTERN ARMENIANS…   THis is the formula that WILL NEVER CHANGE and as I said numerous times in my past posts.. YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD RagnarR.. YOu have to either AGREE OR DISAGREE.. so stop injecting this BS ” But surely you have met sometimes with people” with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  … This statement of yours does not imply to what we are discussing… There is no ” THERE WAS KIND OF GENOCIDE“…. and that is exactly what you are saying..  

     Gayane
      

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112. True to form.
      
     Ragnar you do not have permission to quote my comments. Not because you and I disagree, but because I view you as someone who has a preconceived agenda he is intent on supporting against any evidence to the contrary.  You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent reassertion of this did not scare me away.   If I perceived you to be a fair and honest truth-seeker, I would gladly continue discourse, but since this is not the case, I simply feel we have gone as far as we two can go.
      
     You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent assertion of this did not scare me away.  I do not hide behind aliases, I simply choose my confidants and associations judiciously.

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113. Likewise, Ragnar.    You do not have permission to quote my comments.

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114. No, I will not cite. About your comments, I get curious. But we have been through it so many times. Do you take the fact that I havent changed my mind as a sign that I am not an honest truth seeker, Boyajian? Is that fair? 

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115. My name, to my relief, was not mentioned in the list of potential referral sources that Ragnar Naess intends to use in his upcoming book, but just to be on the safe side…  Ragnar, I join others in not granting permission to use any of my viewpoints in AW in case you intended to do so.
      
     P.S.   BTW, Gor is my real, not pen, name.

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116. Ragnar.. Here is some information from an article on AW written by Kurdish writer on why the Genocide happened… link is also provided for your information..and you tell me there is no scientific reasons for the Genocide to happen.. laughablet to say the least..

     http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/11/gunaysu-denial/
     Just to give a few statistics to remind the readers what the extermination of Christian trade and business people meant for the national economy of the Ottoman Empire, I will once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims.” 5
     These figures alone indicate the extent of economic destruction willfully carried out by the Ottoman government, which put the country’s development back a century—a fact overlooked by the heated antagonists of imperialism in Turkey who are, of course, against nationalism but are unable to look and see beyond the horizon of Turkish nationalism.

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117. Avery jan, Your post above to Karekin it’s not just a good post but an EXCELLENT ONE!!!!  You spoke exactly my heart and soul.  Throughout my life I have been saying the same things you said it above that we have to give heart, inspiration to our people for survival, for fighting for our country and for our lands that has been homelands for Armenians from time immemorial.  Do you know why those freedom fighters in Artsakh had a serene and content look on them?  Because they were fighting for a great cause; because they fought with their hearts and souls for their sweet lands that belonged to them as a legacy left from their forefathers.  They had that unafraid look upon themselves, because of national pride, because of a great cause (the cause of survival as a nation, for their wives pride, and for their children, the future generation of Armenians).  And because they knew their history very well and because they fought for what the enemy the Turks and the Azeris did to them, to their wives, their sisters and their children.  Unlike the Turks and the Azeris that gobbled other peoples’ lands *our lands* that didn’t belong to them, those lands were not theirs to begin with and they have no real cause to fight except for greed, for stealing, for looting and for annihilating for the sake of annihilation.  For us however, our lands is like “Neshxar”, the same way our Ararad Mountain is, «Մեր հողերէը Նշխարի նման սուրբ են մեզ համար, Մեր սուրբ Արարատ լեռան պէս».  Those freedom fighters fought to die happily; but for a great cause, that is the cause of both survival and for the right of their anscestral homeland, for the future of their children and the generations that will come after them, after us.  When you have a good cause and a reason to die, then you fight with all your might, with all your heart, and you are no longer afraid of dying to give your life for your rights, the right of your own homeland Armenia for Armenians.  That is why I more than agree with you as I have always thought out and said it to my compatriots all my life whenever I could, that we always have to give great heart and encouragement to our people and never discourage them of ourselves, of our great history and for what we have and still stand for.  NEVER.  Otherwise that person is not our friend but our enemy, and Karekin is a Turkophile and not the friend of Armenians.  I felt it and I knew that right away and the same time you did also.

     As for your second wish about Turkey my friend, you know that song, «Մօտ է գարունը շուտով կը բացուի»:

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118. Gayane, with all due respect I humbly suggest that you suspend this comment exchange business with Ragnar. I hoped that the ugly terrorist act in his homeland would somewhat shift his mind towards more understanding of our stance on the genocide and the premeditated intent of the murderers. I’m sorry to say it didn’t. Imagine if there were no video shootings of Anders Behring Brevik’s assassinations and no “2083: A European Declaration of Independence’ that he’d authored, what would the police determine after arrival at the site? Ragnar’s position is, unfortunately, a variation of Turkish denialism. He won’t change even if the Storting adopts recognition of the Armenian Genocide on behalf of the people of Norway. We’d better concentrate our efforts on more important events, activities, and individuals. Unless you still have hope, of course…

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119. Ragnar, it may or may not be fair.  Time will tell.  You are free to believe what you like.  I simply find it inconceivable that we could look at the same body of evidence and not conclude that a barbaric genocide was committed by Turks against Armenians that remains unpunished.   Turkey teaches false history to its students, carries racist laws on its books and fosters a distorted image of Armenians to its public.  These are present day continuations of the xenophobic mindset that fueled the genocide in the first place.   Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.  The fact that the powers that be find it convenient to look the other way for 96 years doesn’t change the magnitude of the original crime, nor Turkey’s culpability for it.  The fact that you persist in your campaign to spare Turkey the full weight of this crime, is suspect to me, and suggests that you are not fair, nor honest in your efforts.  No offense intended; just my opinion. 
      
      

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120. thank you Seervart for the kind words. 

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121. thanks Boyajian.
     thanks  gayane

     As I have said before: It is my pleasure.

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122. Dear Avery, Thanks to you it warms our hearts to have such a brilliant and a patriotic Armenian to have amongst us and when we need it most.  Thanks for being you and thanks for being here!

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123. Mjm jan.. I guess I did have hope…but.. I hate to say this but you are right.. Ragnar in his senior years continues his persuit of “Turkey good”  “Armenians are fool of hot air.. because who said there was Genocide”… Basically there is a saying in Armenian.. ” Inqa ira Eshna Qshum”…. I understand your point and I will not entertain Ragnar’s BS… He has plenty of factual data in detail to change his twisted mind.. It is up to him if he wants to step into the righteousness side of things…

     Gor jan- good idea..:) You are one of the most valuable contributor and i am sure Ragnar will get a sniff of that as well sooner or later…

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124. Boyajian,
     as you maybe have noticed I have respect for your judgements , willingness to debate and willingsness to look at your own ideas with a critical perspective. However, sometimes you lapse into facile declarations – as we all do, myself included. However, I cannot take a “time will show” statement as relevant here. You said that you doubted that I was a sincere truth seeker, but that is something relating to me today, not for the future to show. I does not make sense. Of course I am hurt by this, of course I will wonder if it is true, as we all should. As one of you said, it is not easy to admit something which you have used years of your life to disprove. — About a barbaric genocide – we have been through this before. When I use loaded expressions like “racism” or “genocide” or “democracy”, I always add some qualifications. This is how we distinguish rhetorics from informed statements. In my drafts I very clearly say that genocide was perpetrated by the Turks against the Armenians, but this kind of statement never stands alone. (This by the way is why I feel you are doing monologue, Gayane, because you end up with the word “genocode” never botheri9ng to cite me on my qualifications. You make it too easy for yourself) If  you are doing a therapy you always ask for concretizations and clarifications. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.  – And then it is very strange that  you should take my qualifications as a sign of untrustworthyness. In a way you tie yourself to the slogans, not the analysis. But I dismiss this as a facile expression on your part, maybe out of a feeling of loyalty to your fellow Armenians. That you do facile lapses is evident to me because you applaud Avery’s idea of the need to partition Turkey, while you expressed the wish to discuss with honest Turks when we discussed the demonstration the youths made in the Sourp Khatch. But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks. This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 

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125. can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 

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126. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.”
      
     ‘Genocide’ is not a slogan. Does it remotely resemble Marx’s “Proletarians of all countries, unite!”? It is first and foremost a linguistic term coined to depict the essence of a deliberate killing of a race, which came about as a result of serious academic research. In 1933 Raphael Lemkin wrote a proposal on the ‘crime of barbarity’ to be presented to the Legal Council of the League of Nations in Madrid. This was his first formal attempt at creating a law against what he would later call ‘genocide’. The concept originated in his youth when he first heard of the Ottoman government’s mass killings of its Christian Armenian population during the WWI. Lemkin’s idea of genocide then developed from a linguistic term onto a definition of an offense against humanity and international law.

     “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times. First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” – Raphael Lemkin
      

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127. Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. 
     It may appear contradictory when I support those who dream of land reparation from Turkey, while also advocating dialogue with Turks.  To me this is not a lapse.  It comes from a deeply felt wish to ‘rebalance’ and find just resolution for the near annihilation of a people who wanted nothing more than to live with dignity as equals among their neighbors on the land their forefathers tended for thousands of years.  This may sound rhetorical and I may be naive, but I believe that one can hope for the former in the long run, while sincerely pursuing the latter in the present.  Dialogue with Turks is important as an avenue to confront prejudices and misinformation on both sides.  But dialogue alone is not the goal; it is a path along the road to justice.   And justice to me and you is understood quite differently.  That is the crux  of our problem.  I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project.  I wish you luck and enlightenment on your path.
      
     As to this question:  can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 
      
     Perhaps this is overly simplistic and won’t satisfy your question, but I am not an historian or researcher, so will put it this way: 
      
     If you steal from me and hurt my family and never apologize or compensate my loss and on top of that deny your guilt and carry out a campaign that implies that I brought it all upon myself, than I will not trust you and will experience your lack of contrition as a potential future threat.  Then, when your cousin begins attacking my family members, and you stand by offering no assistance, only to later advocate for the cousin who attacked us, I will assume you want my complete destruction and to divide the spoils amongst yourself and your cousin.
      
     Finally, Gor has tried to broaden your understanding of the term genocide with his comment above.  I hope you will read it carefully.  Genocide was a term coined by a pioneering humanist amongst us to shed light on a barbaric act and to assist in the prosecution of such acts.  It was not coined simply to apathetically describe an event.

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128. I promised that I will not entertain you and I intend to do so…but to finish my thought….Ragnar.. like I said… you are not someone we can have dialogue with so I will not waste my time and energy to make you understand that you are fake.. no matter how much academic words you throw at us..

     By you using me as a bait for your conspiracy of words is not welcomed sorry.. you know very well that many of us including MJM, Avery, Boyajian and Gor provided you plenty of evidence or qualifications AS YOU put it.. you have enough of evidence to prove your thought process wrong… why you keep insisting on that same old broken radio… you can’t twist things .. you have been exposed already …. There is nothing else I can tell you to make you understand… have a wonderful dialogue with your TUrkish denialists.. I am sure they will love you …..if not already …..but don’t seek dialogue here when you can’t even express a simple fact: GENOCIDE did happen no matter how many qualitifications your Turkish denialists and yourself try to attach to the word… Aint’ going to work Ragnar.. 

     Take Care…

     Gayane     

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129. “Can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.”
      
     I can. For references, do a simple Google search using the key words highlighted in the black face below.
      
     Turkey remains a threat to Armenians because:
      
     (a)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to establish diplomatic and economic relations with Armenia. Non-establishment of diplomatic and economic relations with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
     (b)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that imposed a blockade on the movement of people, services, and goods with Armenia. Imposition of a blockade of a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sheer demonstration of a threat;
     (c)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to open the borders with Armenia. Keeping the borders closed with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
     (d)Turkey explicitly—militarily, politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade—supported its Turkic extension, newly-minted ‘Azerbaijan’, in waging war against Artsakh as in the early 1990s, thus posing a national security threat to Artsakh and Armenia. And continues to support Azerbaijan against Armenia and Artsakh politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade;
     (e)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose president in the early 1990s made an explicit threat to drop ‘a couple of bombs’ across the border (read: Armenia);
     (f)Turkey occupied almost half of the sovereign UN member-state of Cyprus as a result of an explicit military invasion in 1974 thus posing a threat to broader regional security;
     (g)Turkey violated state borders of the sovereign state of Iraq in the mid-2000s and advanced deep into the Iraqi territory until stopped by the US troops;
     (h)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that now threatens the sovereign state of Syria with a possibility of invasion;
     (i)Turkey continues to suppress and mass murder Kurds and Zaza thus violating human rights and the rights of the minorities;
     (j)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that has problems with virtually all of its neighbors, because of the earlier invasions of the Seljuks, colonization of indigenous native peoples by the Ottomans, and mass physical extermination of millions of native Christians and destruction or Turkification of their civilizational achievements;
     (k)Turkey continues to deny genocides of Greeks, Assyrians, and most heinously, the Armenians thus preventing the country’s transformation into an open society and establishment of good-neighborly relations with the surrounding nation-states;
     (l)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that kills, imprisons, or deports all those activists who dare to speak the truth about the Armenian genocide;
     (m)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose neurasthenic prime minister in the 21st century makes racist remarks about the restoring the past glories of the Ottoman empire and an aspiration to be a voice for the Middle Eastern region and the Balkans and Turkic Muslims.

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130. Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians. Quite the contrary, if you can read the English language.  However, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground. Almost every country within a few hundred miles of the Armenian border is in some sort of chaos, no doubt foreign inspired. If, for some reason, there is a conflagration that engulfs the region, the chances that Armenia will emerge either unscathed or intact are rather remote.  That is the real danger looming on the horizon. If you think anyone, whether it’s Turks, or Kurds or Azeris or Georgians or Russians or Americans are going to reach out and help Armenia, think again. None of them are helping now…and under duress, they will become even more unfriendly. So, blather on, but I prefer to stick to reality. 

      

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131. Gor, your answer is invaluable.  I could have never answered so thoroughly! 

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132. Karekin- you have crossed the line.. WHO ARE YOU to call us a peanut gallery??? You better bite your tongue or else you REALLY true colors are bursting out; hence validating Avery’s very well put description of you… yes we already know you are a realist and not a nationalist… you pretty much are worst than a denialist Turk if you ask me.. you are not promoting what is needed Karekin.. the way you are proposing is actually UNREALISTIC.. so i guess you are not really a realist… but a dreamer…

     Gor jan– BRILLIANT.. thank you for the post…

     Boyajian jan– welll thought out comment to Ragnar… 

     Gayane  

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133. re: ‘Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians’
      Karekin: I have, you are, you are, and you are.
      
     re: ‘, if you can read the English language’
     I can read and understand the English language well enough to see through the fog of your propaganda.
      
     re: ‘, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground.’
     None of my blathering has the aim of getting accolades from anyone.
     And when you say ‘peanut gallery’ , whom are you specifically referring to ? Why don’t you list the names  – so that they can stop giving me accolades.
      
      
     The rest of the blathering in your post has been answered multiple times by me and others on these pages.
      
      
     You asked a question above,
      
      [‘Karekin
     August 10, 2011
     Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.’]
      
      
     And I answered. Your hysterical reaction to a well thought out , reasonable post is telling.

     Reply

134. Karekin,    —-I think the major reason (and I agree there may be others, as Avery alludes to) of your malice towards Armenia and Armenians is of psychological nature. I have no intention nor am I trained to pchycoanalyze you, but you must agree that comments of a poster tell us a bit about his or her character traits. I came to believe that your inner self is hen-hearted, obsequious, and self-depreciating. Hence, your incessant negatives regarding Armenia. In your mind, a smaller state must be subservient to mightier ones. In your mind an oppressed and nearly exterminated people must be hen-hearted in front of the mightier peoples. In your mind, a quest for justice by a smaller nation is an unrealistic fantasy because of the size of a mightier neighbor. These are not the traits of a brave person, I’m sorry to say. I can’t put it better than Avery: “When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it. When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.” People are often pressured in order to succumb to the wills of mightier individuals or organizations. Although they suffer a lot, whoever manages not to give up, comes out victorious at the end. “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” – Eternally genius words by Mahatma Gandhi. Give them a thought…

     Reply

135. in my blatherings above, I made mention of  the superhuman demeanor of Armenian Men Warriors of Artsakh. What I did not mention is the secret ingredient.

     from Seervart’s post:

     “… for their wives pride, and for their children, …”

     What was the secret ingredient ? it was the Armenian Women standing 1 meter behind their men with their children.
     With their wives and children right behind them, no Armenian warrior could or would flinch.

     http://laviesouffrante.tumblr.com/post/4936642526/106-year-old-armenian-woman-guarding-her-house

     I have linked the famous picture of the Armenian grandmother with an AK-47.
     Please study her eyes. Soak in the fierce determination to live free.  And then tell me if these people have not earned the right, a thousand times over, to live in peace as Armenians on their ancestral land.
     Thousands of Armenian women in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s stood behind their men  with AK-47s and RPGs to take on the invaders when their men fell in battle.

     Is there anything more to be said about our people ?
     (Avery’s one-man-peanut-gallery dispensing unsolicited accolades to Armenian women.) 

     Reply

136. Avery jan… Bravo my friend….

     Karo jan-Excellent..

     I am part of the peanut gallery and I am PROUD… :) SO you don”t insult me with such names Karekin….. I rather be part of the peanut gallery then a Turkopile or a denialist…

     Gayane     

     Reply

137. Avery,

     Great picture! Massege to turks. 

     Reply

138. Bravo Gor, your post is very well thought out and brilliant!

     Bravo Boyajian, I was touched by your following sentence and it is the essence of your whole being, your whole psyche that a Ragnar would never understand it.
     “I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project“.
     There are however other compassionate Turks that understand your comlete being, only if: A) they view the Armenian Genocide with the compassion of the human tragedy and the human waste that have occurred, and B) with the compassion and understanding that after such a magnitude of a tragedy some kind of reparation must be given back to the heirs of this wonderful race.

     Reply

139. Avery, I saved that wonderful Armenian mamig’s picture and I will print and post it on my wall.  If I had to die, I would rather die against the tatar mob exactly like her, holding an AK-47 in my arms.  I can’t get over her frightful but determined eyes.  Indeed our women don’t fall much behind our men.  We are made from the same ingredient my dear, aren’t we?  The very same Armenian women and children were also fighting next to their brave men in May 28, 1918.  How else we could have won a war against the huge armies of Turkey right after the Armenian Genocide of 1915?  The very same was repeated in the 1990’s Artsakh war.  We are made of the same fabric; our brave men, women and children, aren’t we Avery? 

     Thanks for your wonderful post and picture my compatriot.

     Reply

140. Gor
     I agree with you that the term has a certain history, being coined by Lemkin and developed in his proposal for a juridical term based on his “Axis rule”. The general use of the term is “to kill or destroy a people”. So I was inaccurate. What I have in mind is that words acquire the characteristic of a slogan by a certain type of usage. It is a term that horrifies and indicts, and we sometimes use it in short sentences and without definition or clarification. We use language in this way all the time, and there is in itself nothing wrong with it, to my mind. But I feel that this usage has a problematic aspect if one does not take heed: if you use the word in this way (using the term without definition and clarification) you are very much dependent on how the receiver interprets it. For this reason this slogan-like usage stands in contrast to the usage one should have in therapies, research, law and the like. In this sense the term genocide is also a slogan WHEN USED IN A CERTAIN WAY. This is also my criticism of Gayane. She never noticed that I say “yes, it was genocide if you use the reasoning of the ICTJ as a yardstick, but is is much more uncertain if we imagine a court case in which the handling of ICC and the tribunals for Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, and apply the yardsticks used here to the Armenian case.
     (By the way, I am still wondering about ther juridical term presumption and the use of this term to assign the burden of proof to the Turks when they say that it was NOT genocide. I believe it was you that launched this idea?)
      

     Reply

141. Ragnar, I believe you are overly concerned with how Turkish receivers interpret our words.  Of course one should try to communicate in a way that helps others to more easily receive your message accurately.  But to sugar coat your words, at times, risks losing the essence of the message.  Some truths are just hard to swallow.  Genocide is a powerful word for a reason.  It is intended to convey the occurrence of a horrible event that humans collectively condemn.  We all abhor it; even the perpetrators.
      
     What is more important: dialogue or justice?   Yes, both are important, and the first can help lead to the second, but dialogue without the goal of fairness becomes an empty exercise. 

     Reply

142. Karo….it’s always interesting to see and read some people’s knee-jerk reactions and pop psychological analyses, because they are 1) entertaining and 2) always wrong in their interpretations. If you or anyone else has ever been in a court of law, you should know very well that it is rare for justice to be served and for truth to prevail.  In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument. My point, as always, is that while Armenians have the facts on their side, it is the delivery and presentation of these facts that gets in the way of getting a positive verdict. Now, Mark Geragos seems to do an amazing job and delivering facts and information that results in positive judgments for his clients. As I’ve been very blunt about before, if we want to have any hope in the future, it is not about blathering slogans or fantasies before a world audience, it must be about presenting the best argument on our own behalf, and frankly, Armenians have fallen short on that level. When you add to it the general anti-Armenian sentiment that seems to be all pervasive in diplomatic circles, Armenia cannot afford to have bungling idiots presenting its case, because that is not how to win. I want Armenia and Armenians to win, more than anything else, but what I’ve seen along the way leaves me underwhelmed and disappointed. So, in the face of such losses, Armenians clearly have to come up with a smarter strategy.  Whining and complaining is not enough to win, and neither is having all the facts. Presenting an argument that cannot fail is the way to go, and if that also entails negotiating a settlement, then do it. When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero. 

     Reply

143. I have no clue what ‘idea’ you’re talking about, ragnar naess, therefore, it was not me who launched something I have no idea about.
      
     As for ‘slogan-not slogan’ dichotomy introduced by you, Boyajian gave you an exemplary and exhaustive reply. If you’re more concerned with definition and clarification than with the first-hand experiences of the survivors, witness accounts, official dispatches, courts martial verdicts, and the conclusions of the prevailing majority of the genocide scholars, historians, and professional associations, then re-read the definition as in the 1948 UN Convention.
      
     By the way, the general use of the term ‘genocide’ is not exactly “to kill or destroy a people”. It is “to kill a race“: genos not demos, (Gr.)

     Reply

144. Ragnar- NICE TRY…..You think I forgot what you said and you did not say.. here is what you said many times over… IN DIFFERENT VERSIONS i might add but with the same meaning..after exhausting comment after comment… your thought process is this…”””””” There may be a Genocide BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTt….”” You see that big BUT… yes you represent that BIG BUT… i told you gazillions times… THERE IS NOT BUT… when it comes to Genocide… if you have not had any clarification and definition of what Genocide means and stands for, then obviously you are not doing a great job educating yourselves as you stated in the past….are you???  So your critizism about me really no skin off my nose sir…

     Reply

145. Karekin- YOU should not talk.. you said…
     In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument

     This is such a “makes sense” statement but if we HAVE YOU or people like you to present the case for the Armenian people, we FOR SURE will not win… so why don’t you do what you preach… arten im nerveri vra es azdum du gites che????

     Reply

146. Karekin– DU QO NUYN ESHNES QSHUM… Did we not give you a lengthy response about how far we came in the last few years BECAUSE OF OUR steadfeast fight, and perserverance??? You sound like a broken radio because you continue to write your BS about
     When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero. 

     This statement is wrong in so many levels that I can’t express how embarassed I am for you and for your ill mannerism with everyone here… amota amot…

     Gayane

     Reply

147.  Boyajian, you say: Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. Comment: But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?). And the case for a land reparation (which you mention now)  is very different from supporting the idea of PARTITION of Turkey. Now I spoke about getting in the position of discussing with Turks who really want to go into the question.  Possibly they will discuss land reparation, but partition? Hardly. About my motive you are very mistaken. The historical research is part of my wholistic endeavor which includes research and solidarity work and activism. If I was a mere researcher I would have worked at the University, publishing things, not distributing leaflets to Norwegian tourists going to Turkey or mobilizing Turks to go and listen to the lecture of the genocide researcher Bloxham. You are forgetting our earlier discussions and what I told about myself. I also have an emotional commitment and ethical commitment–otherwise I would not care – but of course is has an other basis than yours. – – Gayane, I see we are not understanding each other. I have not made myself understood, I will try again.

     Reply

148. Ragnar, you want me to acknowledge that partition and land reparation are not the same thing.  I do.
     But I also acknowledge that the thought of parts of present day Turkey being returned to various indigenous groups of Asia Minor is quite pleasing.  It is appalling to me that Turkey continues to benefit from murder and theft, denial and distortion of history, and manipulation of my government.  I don’t wish death and destruction on any Turks, but I do long for Mt. Ararat to bear her historic name on world maps, for hidden Armenians to come out of the shadows and for Turkey to admit the truth and offer compensation.
      
     Now, please stop dissecting my words.   I readily admit that emotion and loyalty to ‘my own kind’ come into play for me.  I am human after all.  But I am not the issue.  Justice is.  
      
     About your motives:   I don’t know you and don’t know your motives, but I develop an impression from what you write here and what I hear you say (your participation with known genocide denier Justin McCarthy in a forum he moderated in Utah).  You consistently offend me with your concern for Turkish sensibilities while glossing over the fact that Turkey has gotten away with murder!
      
     Leaflets to Norwegians, urging Turks to go hear Bloxham; these are good things.  Confusing, too.  I still don’t understand your goal in visiting this site.  If you are merely fishing for material for a book to feather your cap, I am not interested.  Because you are not the issue, either.
     Justice is.

     Reply

149. Ragnar

     I would love to exchange views and present the hard facts here on these pages but the editor removes the non Armenian comments very often. This is the Armenian freedom of expression but the same editor whines about freedom of expression constantly in turkey. By the way, you should feel absulately free to use any comments made on these pages. It sounds weird to ask for their permission and more peculiar one was the posters reply. If somebody makes a statemant on tv and if you want to use that statement, would you ask pemission? It is the same thing. They have already  publicized their statements So hard luck to them. If you had a private meeting or interview with these guys. Yes you must ask for their permission but not here

     Reply

150. This post is a retort to this:
     [“But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks.
      This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 
     can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.]  (addressing Gayane)
      
     [“But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?)”] (addressing  Boyajian)
      
     I have no desire to debate the Prof in an endless chain of vacuous posts, which essentially boil down to an overextended version of Clinton’s infamous “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”
      
     However, since two friends – Gayane and Boyajian – were criticized on my account, I will engage for this one occasion.
      
     On the partition of Turkey.
      
     Question: What’s wrong with Turkey breaking up into 3-4 pieces ?
     Don’t Kurds and Zaza have the God given right to live as Kurds, speak Kurdish without being jailed or killed ?
     Don’t the hidden-Armenians have the God given right to live openly  as Armenians  without the threat of being killed ?
     Don’t other ethnicities and religious minorities have the God given right not to be forced to call themselves ‘Turks’ and hide their true identity ?
     What’s so sacred about Turkey in your mind ? Is it because you have an acknowledged bias towards Turks ?
     You have visited/lived inTurkey, have many Turk friends ?
      
      
     Did you similarly lament when Yugoslavia was broken up?
     Did you similarly lament when USSR was broken up?
     Did you lament or celebrate the breakup of Sudan into 2 parts ? South Sudanese certainly celebrated.
     The artificial country of Czechoslovakia peacefully split into Czech Republic and Slovakia: Czecks and Slovaks are doing well and quite happy living separately as friendly neighbors.
     French Canadian minority in Quebec narrowly chose to remain part of Canada after a peaceful, popular referendum. That’s fine too.
     What about the breakup of the Ottoman Empire? How many of the nationalities that were under its yoke you think would want to go back to living as serfs and 2nd class citizens ?
      
      
     Ethnic Turks are only about 50% of Turkey: why should they have the right to tell other ethnicities how to live, what language to speak, what names to have?
     Why should invaders from far away lands have the right to tell the indigenous people what to call themselves, what language to speak, what God to worship ?
     The West broke-up Yugoslavia: why not Turkey? Who decided that  Turks are special ?
     Why shouldn’t Kurds, Zaza, and other minorities have the right to secede from Turks ?
      
     Who decided that territorial integrity is superior to self-determination of Human Beings ?

     Why should the State, a creation of arguably fallible humans, have superior rights to that of what God created – Human Beings ?
      
     And finally, in all my posts wishing for the breakup of Turkey never have I advocated for any violence by Armenians or RoA against Turks.
     My contention is that Turkey will break up due to its inherent internal pressures, the same mechanisms that break up all artificial countries held together at gunpoint. Not due to any action by of Armenians.
     And I have specifically stated I wish no harm to come to ordinary Turks – which seems to escape the notice of the same people that readily notice the word ‘breakup’.
      
      
     It has been said  the best thing that happened to Germany and Japan is that their nationalistic, aggressive, murderous regimes were massively defeated.
     Their peoples experienced a level of death and destruction unknown in their history.
     They realized for the first time in their respective histories what their insane predecessors had been doing to others.
     Both Germans and Japanese became completely changed peoples after WW2.
     Both Germany and Japan are peaceful, wealthy, happy nations now. Their industriousness and ingenuity – which was previously used to create death machines – is now used to create first rate consumer and industrial products admired and used throughout the world.
      
      
     When Turkey lets go of the peoples they are holding by force, ethnic Turks will be much  better off.
     Ethnic Turks will live happier lives devoid of aggression and violence.
     Kurds and Zaza will be happier in their own countries.
     Armenians living  in an Armenia with access to the Black Sea will be a lot wealthier and happier: wealthy, content, happy people don’t go looking for a fight.
     Turkey is a huge country, sparsely populated. Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey) has hardly been developed: Turks have practically abandoned it.  There is absolutely no need for them to hold on to occupied Western Armenia, other than hubris and hatred towards Armenia and Armenians. Their security will not be threatened by letting go.  On the contrary, a larger, more secure Armenia will enhance Turks’ security – for obvious reasons.
      
      
     The whole region will be transformed for the better. It will be no different than the peaceful, prosperous Western Europe. Maybe even better.
      
      
     And finally, Gor produced an extensive list of threats in his Aug 12 retort to the Prof.
     I will add just one item, that is quite appropriate, given that Turks and their Turkphile friends find fault in  my desire for Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces.
      

     Here is a passage from this hyperlink : http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/world/news/24018/
      
     [“Azerbaijan’s joy is our joy, Azerbaijan’s grief is our grief. Once, historical processes divided Azerbaijan and Turkey and there was a border between us. Now we have good possibilities and we should use them in toto. We are the architects of our future,” Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in Baku.] (emphasis mine)
     What do you think that sentence means? Is it anything other than  “our (Turkish) goal is to re-unite the borders of Azerbaijan and Turkey”.
     Q: How do you unite the borders of Azerbaijan and Turkey with Armenia
     being in the way ?
     A: You don’t; you cut Armenia in half or eliminate it altogether.

      
      
      

     Reply

151. re: “I would love to exchange views and present the hard facts here on these pages”
     Monastras, why don’t you and Mr. Ragnar Naess exchange views and present hard facts on the comments forum of TodaysZaman ?
     They have a very permissive policy towards Anti-Armenian posts, so you guys can have a hate-fest without interference from the moderator of AW. We can come and visit regularly and follow the debate there.
      
     re: “This is the Armenian freedom of expression but the same editor whines about freedom of expression constantly in turkey.”
     Many Turks, including yourself, keep bringing the ‘freedom of expression’ canard over and over again, so I’ll try to explain again.
      
     Freedom of Expression, Censorship and such  are terms used for STATEs. There is no freedom of expression for a PRIVATE enterprise.
     They can allow or disallow any and all comments: you and I have no legal right to post. It’s a privilege extended to the public by the private owners of AW for whatever reason they have.
     They can withdraw that privilege anytime for any reason  without prior notice.
      
     I post @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet frequently.
     Most of my posts to Zaman are published. Some are not.
     Some of my posts to Hurriyet are published. Most are not.
     (guess which posts do not get published)
      
      
     And finally, I asked  you (on these pages) about a certain post of yours  @ Hurriyet several times, which you ignored.
     One reason that AW moderators remove comments by some non-Armenians may be they do not wish to give a platform to Denialists to use an Armenian publication to spread Denialist, Anti-Armenian hate-speech. Is that unreasonable ?
      
     He is what you posted @Hurriyet:
      
     [Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust]

     Reply

152. Oh look… we have an attorney amongst us ladies and gentlemen.. Monastras… HOOORAYYYYYYYYYYYYY….

     Sir.. please don’t talk like everyone should act like Ottoman govt where they TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE without asking…..so your plead to Ragnar to take without asking is pretty much a barbaric mannerism.. but then again I am not surprised to hear something like that from a denialist such as yourself…

     these forums are public forums.. and everything here is for that purpose ONLY. for private matter such as for a research or for a book, that is another matter… no one has our consent to do so…..I did not know you have a law degree and you were ointed to be the leader of your pack to dictate Ragnar what to do.. laughable to say the least….

     Gayane

     Reply

153. Avery
     with all respect, you are very far from reality. first, of course anybody may hold the view that Turkey should be partitioned. I am for freedom of thought even the most farfetched ones. My point was that if you want to discuss with Turks, you’ll have to choose. Boyajian has earlier expressed the opinion that she wants to discuss with honest Turks. Then you musnt start by launching the idea that Turkey should be divided. That is  IF you want to discuss with Turks, but if you find a pleasure just in launching this idea in AW, what should I say? OK, go on!!– But what you suggest is extremely farfetched. To take the Turkish Kurds: the majority of them live outside the Kurdish core areas. Actually some of the right wing Turks suggested some years ago: YES, give them the south eastern vilayets (for which they will also compete with the Armenians), provinces that are very poor. Leave your shops and businesses in the cities! Of course the Kurds will say no to this, it was only in the first years of PKK’s existence that they had an independent Kurdistan in theor programme. The Zaza is a language group in rapid decline, they are not an ethnic group. the Alevis are spread over the whole country and are wise anough not to repeat the previous mistakes of the Armenians. These groups want a more democratic Turkey. Further you dont seem to realize that what Turkey did in invading Cyprus is from the perspective of international law the same as Armenia did when they invaded – or “freed” – Artsakh. The world community does not approve of it. The Turkish incursions into Irak in order to attack guerilla bases is condemned as a sake of form, but both Syria and Iran are tacitly agreeing. All cpoutries wpould do the same when a neioghbour country cannot protect its borders. So your opinions on Turkey are extremely unbalanced and far fetched. But you are free to voice them here. What I found surprising was that Boyajian applauded you as a patriot. But the she gives more or less a psychological explanation for it. It deals with one’s frustation at Turkish denialism, which I can understand very well. But that does not make this particular post more acceptable
       

     Reply

154. Avery, I need to point out a few things and make some corrections. You said etnic Turks are only about %50 in Turkey. You mentioned some 50 millions ethic Turks in your previous post which make some %70 of the total population of Turkey. The question is where did you put the %20 difference in your recent  post. I know that you can make 2×2=5 or even 6 when you want to. But this seems way forward from what we used to see in your comments. 

     back to reality, %85 of the population of Turkey are etnic Turks. Kurds are %11. Zaza are just over %1. So Turkey doesn’t look like  Czech Republic and Slovakia or USSR. Therefore it is unlikely to break up. Yes Some Kurds claim the south eastern Turkey to be Kurdistan which could be %10 to 15 of the country.However, they feel to moderate their demand as half the population of Kurds live in the western and the southern cities.Turkey will suffer from the Kurdish seperatists but that will not a fatal collision at any time in the future. I know that you dream about partition of Turkey but that is the situation.
     @Trust me Kurds and Zaza can speak and learn their languages in Turkey without being jailed or killed.
     @As I posted on these pages before, Hidden Armenians in Turkey are largely exaggerated by the Armenian media as a few of them have come forward and practised their religion but not killed or jailed.So millions of hidden Armenians could have done the same. At least we should have seen several thousand or hundred. Actualy, they weren’t hidden Armenians because they said their neighbours already knew that they are Armenians. So where are they hiding?

     I have a secret proposal about the partition of Turkey but that will remain secret.
      

     Reply

155. Avery,

     The answer to your question is I HATE TodaysZaman and I LOVE Armenian Weekly. I want to post many other things but they have been denied by the editor.  

     Reply

156. Ragnar,

     Just to remind you that The Alevi isn’t an etnic group but a religious group. Most of the Alevi are etnic Turks, and I support everthing they want. I think that very few people objected their demands in Turkey but the government still do not know what to do about it.

     Reply

157. re: ‘But you are free to voice them here.’

     Oh, gee Professor  Naess, I didn’t know I needed your permission to have the freedom to post @ArmenianWeekly. 

     Now I know. Thanks. 

     Reply

158. Ragnar,

     You have a tendency to present yourself as the know-it-all professor who is constantly enlightening Armenians.

     The Zaza is a language group in rapid decline, they are not an ethnic group.

     Absolutely not. Since when are you an expert in these matters? Zazas are an ethnic group of Iranian origin and they consider themselves an ethinc group. I don’t know what their aspirations are in terms of getting freedom for themselves but if it is correct that their language is quickly dying then they are basically being Turkified at a rapid pace. You suggest that the same is happening with the Alevis? Too sad and I wouldn’t call it wise even if they are trying not to make the same mistakes as the Armenians. 

     FYI, Kurds dream about a free Kurdistan every single day. I don’t know how realistic it is and I am sure they want a democratic Turkey but a democratic Turkey where they are a minority is not the top of their dreams.

     Further you dont seem to realize that what Turkey did in invading Cyprus is from the perspective of international law the same as Armenia did when they invaded – or “freed” – Artsakh.

     Not at all. Artsakh has been our ancestral land (read the article about excavating the ruins of Dikranakert) and was given as a gift to Azeris by Stalin. Armenians ARE the rightful owners of Artsakh. And YES, Artsakh has been LIBERATED from discriminating foreign rulers. In contrast, Cyprus has been Greeks’ ancestral land, never Turks’, and was INVADED by Turkey. Even when within Azerbaijan, Artsakh had the status of an autonomous republic and people living there had the right for self-determination. I don’t think there was ever Northern Cyprus as a separate entity before the Turkish invasion. There isn’t one even now except in the eyes of the Turks. 

     It is no news that you will do anything to twist facts and evidence to discount our rights and diminish the merits of our case.  
      
       

     Reply

159. Ragnar, I think it is time for me to ask my question from Aug. 10th again:  “…rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?”

     
     Avery, at the risk of offending our Norsk friend, I find myself lapsing into applause again.  I understand what you want for Turkey, I respect that you don’t advocate violence against Turks, I know that you are describing a dream for the future, and I like it.   Turkey needs to learn to coexist without the need to dominate.  They don’t have to pay the price that Germany and Japan paid to learn this lesson, but they may bring it upon themselves if they don’t start looking at history honestly.   In the meantime, I hope you keep on dreaming and encouraging others to dream.  Like a ship that never leaves a harbor, a dream that isn’t allowed to be voiced, is hardly worth having.  No matter how unrealistic to some.

     Reply

160. Thanks Boyajian.
     

     Reply

161. Monastras:

     re:  [‘Avery, The answer to your question is I HATE TodaysZaman and I LOVE Armenian Weekly. I want to post many other things but they have been denied by the editor.’]
     

     I am not sure if your  statement re  ArmenianWeekly is genuine or facetious.
     In any case, obviously you read my post which mentioned TodaysZaman.
     So obviously you saw and read the last part of it also.

     So please be kind enough to explain your post @Hurriyet to Armenians here.
     Don’t try to hide or avoid it: you know I will keep reminding you whenever you post here.
     And don’t slough it off to the moderators of AW.
     Don’t expect them to publish what you posted @Hurriyet.
     The audience  here is  largely Armenian, with quite a few who have had eyewitness blood-relatives who related what happened in 1915-1923 to their children and grandchildren.

     The eyewitness accounts are very traumatic for the descendants of AG survivors: don’t expect AW to assist Turks in their Denialist campaign.

     If you stand by your post @Hurriyet, then don’t expect any Armenian to have a civil debate with you here. Either  state  publicly  here  on record that  you  stand  by  it,  or  retract  it and apologize. But make a stand either way. 
      
     I will address the discrepancy in my numbers at  a later post. 

     Reply

162. Avery jan— APRES my friend… BRAVO…

     Gina- EXCELLENT post.. apres…

     Monastras– NEVER SAY NEVER….No one ever thought USSR will break up like that.. no one and guess what they did? So i would not be too sure and full of BS of yourself about Turkey… there is a chance that your beloved Turkey that was created due to looting, murder, rape and stealing from my people and other civilized nations will fall into the same fate… don’t be too quick to jump up and down from joy….Hey Monastras, here is the link about Hidden Armenians… and guess what??? It was not presented or showed by an ARMENIAN media but NON-ARMENIAN media.. so your statement is as dumb as your comments on other things…

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h69Zz0sV0GY

     Reply

163. Monastras and Ragnar– maybe you should read this comment from an ordinary Turk who posted on Todays Zaman… It is unfortunate that we have very few heros like this man and few others who are brave enough to stand up against all odds and express their disgust with you denialists….I am going to post this where Necati can read again and again and again.. hope you two do the same… the End…

     Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi , 28 July 2011 , 05:34

     Necati…Do you honestly beleive that all of us Turks, should follow the denialist and reactionary attitude that you possess? What makes you a better Turk than I? So, with your logic, If I put Armenia and Armenians down, poke fun at them, and deny the Genocide committed by our esteemed Ottoman government, (the same Ottomans who wanted Ataturk killed) would that make me a better Turk than you? My grandfather was a direct witness to the Genocide, when he found the battered body of his best friend, a young Armenian kid, butchered and thrown like a dead dog. It affected him so much, that years later he asked my father and instructed us to Never forget the injustices done to the Armenians. Do you consider Orhan Pamuk a Turk? Here is a Turk who singlehandedly brought Turkey more positive recognition than all of our political and military leaders combine. Why is it that we are afraid of the truth? All I hear from denialist Turks is that..”..the Armenians betrayed us and allied themselves with Russia..” FYI, Armenians Never denied that, but what would you expect from a people whom we taxed heavily and called them all the names in the book, one being “kâfir”, treating them as a second class citizens and the list is long. So, to conclude, I consider Pamuk, Akcam, and thousands of other proud Turks whose only aim is to accept the happenings of 1915, and move on as good neighbors. Trust me, accepting the Truth (Genocide will set us all free from the long arms of murderers who until today assassinates journalists, does the assassination of Dink ring a bell? Stop hiding behind your weapons and guns..in the end, trust me the “pen is mightier than your sword.” My grandfather, father and brothers served with dignity and courage in the armed forces of our beloved Turkey, and just because I speak the truth and do Not agree with you, you’re trying to silence me? Nobody can take my Turkishness from me, let alone you.

     Reply

164. Hey Monastras.. you complain about AW but your own Turkish site (Todays Zaman) may NEVER publish any of comments all together because of such a message.. is it because they don’t want us to post our comments freely without any restrictions and have to use such BS as due to high volume of e-mails?? LOL but you don’t see us whining about it do you???? unlike you…..LOL.. too funny..

     Your comment will shortly be read by the Today’s Zaman Internet editorial team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours. Due to the high volume of emails received by us we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published

     Reply

165. Monastras, thank you for your posts. I did field work with  Alevis  and published an article in 1985 (in Gerholm and Lithman: the new Islamic presence in Europe, title: “Being an Alevi Muslim in South West Anatolia and in Norway”). Now this is based on a prolonged relationship with people from one village and on literature, and I do not claim access to absolute knowledge, but I believe that Turkish Alevis on the whole fulfill the criteria of an ethnic group. One important criteria is that they fairly rarely intermarriage with Sunnis. But of course they regard themselves as Turks  and Muslims, indeed representatives of “true Islam”, so whether they should count as an ethnic group or not is a matter of definition.  

     Reply

166. Gayane, I would not say that the crime committed towards the Armenians is a “kind of genocide”. I have in mind the same type of qualification that I present in my answer to Monastras regarding “ethnic group”. The truth of what we say in this case may depend not only on facts about the people whom we believe to constitute an ethnic group, but on how we define  the term “Ethnic group”. My point is that the words we use are tricky in the sense that people not only sometimes understand different things when they utter different words, but sometimes understand different things when they utter the same word. And this gives rise to misunderstandings. In the same way there is sometimes a need to explain more in detail what we mean by the word Genocide, not only use it as an expression that conveys our sorrow and anger at the unspeakable crime that was committed against the Armenians. As I have said the events clearly constitute genocide if you use the reasoning of the ICTJ, that is the agency to which the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission addressed themselves in 2002 to have a legal opinion. But if you ask the question “was it a genocide?” in a strictly juridical sense, that is according to the reasonings applied in the Convention and above all the verdicts regarding Rwanda and Bosnia and the legal opinions regarding e.g. Darfur, I am not sure and believe many Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide also according to this reasoning. But this should not stop us from fighting for justice for Armenians, and from trying to convince Turks that they must go honestly into this black spot of their past, which also means to fight for a more democratic Turkey. Now I may look ridiculous and pompous as a solitary Norwegian who does this, but then this is what I want to do, stupid or not, mistaken or not (I can give you the phone of my psychologist if you want, he can give an opinion on me, I hereby exempt him from his duty not to tell others about his clients).    

     Reply

167. Lemkin struggles for years to coin a word to describe what happened to Armenians and Jews and comes up with ‘genocide.’  Now we are second guessing the creator of the term about whether Armenian massacres qualify.  Does this make sense, Ragnar?  You are playing with words as if it were a game for a Saturday afternoon diversion.  You have gotten so lost in terms and definitions that you are losing sight of common sense.  You are defining yourself right into ridiculousness.  Perhaps you should take a step away and take a wide angle shot.  The details are confusing you.

     Reply

168. “Was it a genocide? I am not sure and believe many Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide[…]”

     For your information, this is maintained not only by ‘quick’ Armenians who lost 2 million of fellow nationals, two-thirds of their historic homeland, and all of their cultural and religious edifices and personal properties to murderer Ottoman Turks, but by a great number of non-Armenians, too. Amongst them are leading genocide scholars, historians, anthropologists, international lawyers, human rights activists, diplomats, politicians, and Nobel prize laureates. Against the backdrop of these experts, who are you to not be sure if it was a genocide? Who are you to place in question the premeditated crime committed against Armenians? “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times. First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” Do you consider yourself smarter than the inventor of the term, international lawyer and genocide scholar Raphael Lemkin? Has you psychologist ever told you that you might be suffering from Herostratos’ complex?
      
     “The Alevis are spread over the whole country and are wise enough not to repeat the previous mistakes of the Armenians.”

     Should one conclude that not only are you a genocide denier, but an Armenophobe, as well? What are the ‘mistakes’ that Armenians have made? Quest for freedom was a mistake? Or the right to live as masters on their native lands was a mistake? Might it be that Armenians have in turn repeated the ‘mistakes’ of Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Romanians, Greeks, Arabs who similarly aspired to throw off the yoke of the Turkish oppressors? Because they succeeded and Armenians were savagely slaughtered en masse, it means Armenians have made a ‘mistake’?

     Reply

169. ragnar naess    —-The more you post the more you expose yourself as a Turkish sympathizer. I have no problem with anyone being a sympathizer of something or someone per se, but to post biased comments (e.g. ‘not sure if it was a genocide’, ‘invading Cyprus is the same as invading Artsakh’, ‘Armenians made mistakes’, and many others in the past) while portraying yourself an advocate of peace and justice (with dubious motives) and a junior scholar (with dubious credentials), leads us to believe that you’re none other than a petty Turkish apologist.

     Reply

170. Gor jan, Very well said as you gave the true picture of Ragnar, who pretends that he is a non-denialist scholar but HE IS.

     Reply

171. EXACTLY dear Karo and Gor… That is what I, Boyajian, MJM exposed him of in our past experience with Ragnar… MJM/Boyajian jan.. what topic were we discussing with this man?  If any of you want more exposure to how Ragnar is, this discussion platform will give you plenty of evidence..

       …Actually Boyajian and MJM were more civil and professional with him than I had been.. However, when one continues to act like a fake promoter of justice and freedom of speech and understanding of what happened to Armenians by throwing us academic, dimplomatic or scientific BS truly shows who the person is.. and he is confused as to why we address him the way we do… Ragnar… may you ask your physocologist if you are fit to do such research because obviously you think you are but to general public, especially for Armenians, I am sorry but you are not qualified or you are able…

     Rangar- YES you would and did say ” that there was kind of Genocide”…  

     Apres Boyajian jan… apres…  

     Reply

172. boyajian, you write:
     “…rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?”. —
     Comment: Yes, I will try to answer and lets do what you propose. I started out in the discussion regarding this bedrosian article by commenting on “Anadolu”, partly on his condescending remarks on the Armenians’ fight for justice regarding Armenian churches and schools, partly on the arrests of april 24, 1915. There came no answers from “Anadolu”, but Gayane raised the old issue of “what side are you on”. Then you asked the question you repeated now. I must admit I overlooked your question then, and I’ll try to answer now.
     To advance justice it is necessary to continue to argue with Turks about what actually happened in 1915-16. I have posted several messages in “Daily Zaman” and “Daily Hurriyet” about this. It is important that all of us who care about the Armenian case try to find Turkish fora in which dialogues can be made. I will continue to do this, and also argue against those who belittle the catastrophy that befell the Armenians, and deny that what happened certainly is genocide according to the criteria of ICTJ. I will stick to this in the future. I see I ended up in another debate following Gayane’s lauching of the theme of “what side I am on”. I will not do it again.
     Second I hope to have Norwegians at large get interested in the issue. The problem now is that nobody is interested. Whether this is done by political means, by trying to mobilize Amnesty International or by other means is another matter. At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide, understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, is the most important.
     In order to convince Turks I will start with Talat’s admissions, which actually are admissions of a crime. I will ask what this tells us about his intentions and the intensions of the central ittihadists. I will point to the fact that perpetrators hardly ever were brought to justice. I will say that it is the Turks who have the burden of proof that it was not a case of genocidal intent on the part of the ruling people. I will do it mainly by asking questions, and criticizing the answers, not trying to advance my case by saying that “historians say that…” or “it has been proven that…”. This is unproductive.
     As you have seen I support the Armenian cause with certain qualifications. I will not support the arguments forwarded by genocide scholars and Armenian scholars when I experience them to be dubious or have been shown to be mistaken. It is important to correct these views because otherwise conservative Turks will pick them up to show that “the Armenians are mistaken” and this serves to slow down justice. To insist on the Turks’ having the burden of proof and corroborating it with god arguments will speed up justice.
     I wanted to write something in the discussion after Bedrosian’s article because I believe it is good strategy for Armenians – and myself – to address Turks in Turkey, and recovering churches is a good strategy. What the ARF says about not making genocide recognition the primary strategy, but to focus on reparations and reclaiming churches – not forgetting about what happened ion 1915 and still promote an iunderstanding of this-  is good strategy to my mind.
      At the same time I believe it is important to admit that there was a cycle of violence and that Turks – in revenge and fear – did to Armenians something that Bulgarians, Russians and Greeks had been doing to them, only on a much larger scale. To admit this must not make us deflect from the main aim which is to seek justice for the Armenians, but if challenged by Turks it must be admitted (see the Libaridian article I mentioned in earlier posts).
     I believe it was unwise of the Armenians to refuse to participate in the commission of historians proposed by the Turkish government in 2005. It was a tactical blunder which has given the reactionary part of Turkish society apparently good arguments against the Armenians. Secondly, a commission would properly organized have been an excellent platform for researchers who defend the Armenian cause, because Turkish researchers on the whole have very distorted views and this would be visible to the international audiences.
     You are asking a very big question. I hope I at least managed to give some elements of an answer.    

     Reply

173. Ragnar,

     I do not know your nationality but I must admit that You are one of best scholars i  have ever seen  with all open-mind , historical and philosophic bases you have.

     Unfortunately,   most of the  people here  have  no base or will to understand what you say.

     I know you are in preparation of a book.  And i want to  read your books  although  a few things i cant agree with you. I would be so glad if you can e-mail me your name so i can  look for your books.

     I  have now written here one more time knowing that  many will blame me with shamelessness …

     Oh well.. i only need your name ..i dont care others…

     my e-mail:  nec3@hotmail.com

     Reply

174. correction:

     “Ragnar”   >>>  would be     ” Dear Ragnar  Naess”

     Reply

175. Boyajian,
     no, I believe you are mistaken, such definitions are absolutely necessary. Read the verdicts from Rwanda and the Bosnia-Serbia case. The Bosniaks had a naive belief that what happened to them was genocide committed by the leadership of Yugoslavia/Montenegro. They lost. And the idea that BECAUSE Lemkin coined the term “genocide” the 1915 events MUST be a genocide according to the Convention, that is according not only to the definitions but according to the verdicts and treatment of the matter  in the trials after 1990 is a very strange idea, to my mind. But enough of this. Now you have an idea of how I will promote justice.

     Reply

176. Unfortunately, I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures that the (only) underlying reason they oppose the use of the word genocide, is that they feel they have a technicality on their side: that the word was not coined until AFTER 1923 ! and that it cannot be applied retroactively – even though the word came into existence to describe their own actions from 1915 – 23.  

     Perhaps this little tidbit provides some insight and explains, at least in part, why they feel they can play the genocide card in recent instances of much smaller massacres around the world, but they themselves feel immune to it when it comes to discussing Armenians. They clearly know the truth, despite all their protestations and attempts to blame Armenians for their own demise.  So, while I wholeheartedly agree that the real audience for any of this is actually in Turkey, by way of strategizing and using legal means, perhaps it would make sense to convey this key element of timing and the true history behind the term, to them?  

     Lemkin’s face and words have been recorded on videotape for posterity….translate them into Turkish and play them over and over again until they are understood by more and more people. Eventually, the message will get thru and the truth will rise to the top. Whether or not this offers any hard change on the ground, though, is open to debate. It could result in an apology from the government, but as we can read here…that clearly is not going to be enough. There will need to be more if this issue is to become settled history at some point in time. 

      

     Reply

177.  Necati.. Please read a message to you from your Turkish comrade from Today’s Zaman… Please read and soak what he is truly saying.. you, Ragnar and your pack no matter how many ways you say it or how many ways you try to twist the truth, anyone in their right mind and conscious knows the truth.. Even your brethren is telling you to SHUT UP and smell the reality… Take his word…

     Enjoy

     Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi , 28 July 2011 , 05:34
     Necati…Do you honestly beleive that all of us Turks, should follow the denialist and reactionary attitude that you possess? What makes you a better Turk than I? So, with your logic, If I put Armenia and Armenians down, poke fun at them, and deny the Genocide committed by our esteemed Ottoman government, (the same Ottomans who wanted Ataturk killed) would that make me a better Turk than you? My grandfather was a direct witness to the Genocide, when he found the battered body of his best friend, a young Armenian kid, butchered and thrown like a dead dog. It affected him so much, that years later he asked my father and instructed us to Never forget the injustices done to the Armenians. Do you consider Orhan Pamuk a Turk? Here is a Turk who singlehandedly brought Turkey more positive recognition than all of our political and military leaders combine. Why is it that we are afraid of the truth? All I hear from denialist Turks is that..”..the Armenians betrayed us and allied themselves with Russia..” FYI, Armenians Never denied that, but what would you expect from a people whom we taxed heavily and called them all the names in the book, one being “kâfir”, treating them as a second class citizens and the list is long. So, to conclude, I consider Pamuk, Akcam, and thousands of other proud Turks whose only aim is to accept the happenings of 1915, and move on as good neighbors. Trust me, accepting the Truth (Genocide will set us all free from the long arms of murderers who until today assassinates journalists, does the assassination of Dink ring a bell? Stop hiding behind your weapons and guns..in the end, trust me the “pen is mightier than your sword.” My grandfather, father and brothers served with dignity and courage in the armed forces of our beloved Turkey, and just because I speak the truth and do Not agree with you, you’re trying to silence me? Nobody can take my Turkishness from me, let alone you.

     Reply

178. Ragnar—- YOu said  “catastrophy that befell the Armenians”.. I beieve the true word for this catastrophy of yours is GENOCIDE… you are not fighting for ARmenians and I would not want you to fight for us… I don’t trust or rely on you to share the most accurate and NON BIASED message.. so thanks but no THANKS… appreciate the messed up thought that you think you are helping but in reality you are creating more confusion and denial… so get off this case and persue something tat you are more suited to do.. Sorry forthe harsh words but MJM was right.. no point of talking to you… you are NO poin of return… Good day sir….

     Reply

179. Armenian posters: read this sentence carefully.  

     ‘…Unfortunately, I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures…’ 

     Question: who among you talks regularly to certain high level Turkish figures ? 
     (‘more than once’ implies regular contact with high level Turkish figures)

     Reply

180. well done Gayane. I am very proud. I can leave the scene now. One of our own has learned to use the tools of the trade very well, and wields them with expertise.
     Armenian Lady Samurai.

     (just kidding….I am not leaving: too much fun jousting with the Denialists) 

     Reply

181. ‘…you are creating more confusion…’

     Exactomundo: that’s their goal; no more, no less. 

     Reply

182. ragnar naess,   the idea is not that because Lemkin coined the term ‘genocide’ the 1915 events must be a genocide. You got it wrong again. It’s his studies of the Armenian case (along with the Jewish one) that led to coining the term ‘genocide’ to depict the essence of what happened: killing of a race. That is, he examined Allies’ definition in 1915: ‘crime against humanity and civilization’, then in the 1930s came up with ‘crime of barbarity’ to depict Turkish mass murders, and then, in 1943, with ‘genocide’. The premeditation of mass murders, their scale, and target on a particular racial, ethnic, and religious group awaited their semantic and legal definition. In other words, in 1915-1923 it was genocide that was called differently by individuals, media, diplomats, politicians, and world government, and the 1943 Lemkin’s definition reflected upon the crime by coining the term. In the Armenian case, there have been verdicts and treatment of the matter in the trials: Turkish courts martial of 1919-1920 that charged several top individuals representing the Turkish state of the massacres of both Armenians and Greeks, forming a key argument in the Treaty of Sèvres, which resulted in the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire.

     Reply

183. Avery…who said ‘regularly’?  No one, but you. However, even you can send an email to people in Turkey and you will, fairly often, get a response!  Try it sometime and you’ll probably get a note back, particularly if you send a sane, intelligent letter, or ask a topical question. They regularly publish their email addresses in the Turkish media when they write articles. Communication is a great way to learn new things. Try it. 

     Reply

184. Karekin, I’m afraid you gave yourself away by “I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures.”  I thought you said you were wandering in Kurdish villages in Western Armenia and also visiting the remaining Armenian churches in Constantinople.  But it looks like you also had high-level meetings with Turkish officials.  Hmmm, that sounds thought-provoking…

     Reply

185. To Ragnar, Necati, Robert the turk, and whom it may concern,

     You Turks have untill August 19 to respond to US federal court regarding the lawsuit filed by ARmenians regarding their lost property during AG. (it also includes Incirlik Military Base, for which USA pays around $10mil every year).

     AT LEAST UNTIL THEN YOU SHOULD DISAPPEAR FROM AW PAGES AND THINK ABOUT WHAT TO SUBMIT OR HOW TO RESPOND TO THAT LAWSUIT.  YOU SHOULD ONLY VISIT AW IF YOU SEEK AN ADVICE. GOOD LUCK>

     Reply

186. ….a yeah, I am sure Turks would leave an email trail like that. 
     (prove me wrong: reproduce the emails with their addresses here on these pages)
     (they are pubic, No ? you said so.) 
     (make sure they arefrom ‘high level Turkish figures,not some Joe Shmoe,)
     (because I will check the emails and the addresses for authenticity.)

     The phrase ‘high level Turkish figure’  implies a high level Turkish official.
     Why is it that it sounds and feels different than ‘people in Turkey’.

     the phrase “…have been told….” is more often than not used to denote conveyance of verbal communication: you slipped pal, and for a moment the mask came off for all to see who you really are. Too late. It’s on record.

     I knew it all along, but am I glad you inadvertently revealed yourself for all to see. 

     Reply

187. you AW  know what is happening? 

     I am turning to  a tiger  from a man like a  sheep day by day each time  i read you,

     Reply

188. Necati- Unfortunately, you have lost your mind.. I know it can affect someone when that someone finally realizes that they are indeed a denialist… that can be very hard on the person.. i know… your last post truly demonstrates your incoherence with your own self and words.. you made NO SENSE…. but reading and figuring out messed up in their head individuals very well.. I think I figured what you were TRYING to say… i am going ot take a wild guess here…

      You say after reading the post on AW (or posts from someone specific.. can’t tell from your writing) you turning into a  beast from a man is nothing unusual Necati.. That trait comes from your ancestors who demonstrated such beastly traits and acted upon them and almost destroyed an ancient civilization.. Armenians..Therefore, your argument that the posts here make you turn into a beast is inaccurate… it is your subconscious self dictating how dangerous you are to society and if there are people like you in Turkey (which I know for sure they are… the lost denialists) roaming around, then how do you expect peace loving Armenians to have a conversation with a violent beast like creatures…. Oh my goodness, I feel like I am in the horror movie “the warewolf”… might as well.. no difference when it comes to denialists…

     Have a good day

     Reply

189. Vay Avery jan..yes qez shat em sirum.. yes qez chem imanum bayts arten vorpes im expayrs shat em sirum…:) Armenian Lady Samurai.. :) that is great.. loved it.. but guess what??? I learned it from the best… and I thank you and everyone else..:)

     Karekin- Karekin— my friend lost in translation… see what happens??? this is a lesson to you and those denialists and Turkish sympathizers….. THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT SOONER OR LATER..

     Reply

190. Hi Avery, We finally caught Karekin.  Inkezink mechdegh hanets che?

     Thanks Gayane jan, I liked the article you put out from Mine Oszcelik Bagrationi.  There are sympathetic Turks, I know.  We wish there were more of them who would speak truthfully about the Armenian Genocide.

     Gor jan, You gave very good explanations to Ragnar about how Lemkin coined for the murder of the Armenian nation to call it a Genocide.

     Reply

191.  
     AR
     thank you for giving us this date of august 19. Indeed I will look for news because this will be an opportunity to launch the story in Norwegian papers, so that it will be possible to have norwegians think about the genocide and what Turks and Armenians are doing. But why this unfriendly message of DISAPPEARING from AW until then?
     Gor
     Of course you are right that the fact – that Lemkin coined this word based on what he knew about the events of 1915 – is not the only reason why we call the massacres and deportations of Armenians, the confiscation of property, the destruction of churches, the number of Armenians forced to convert to Islam – for genocide. My comment was based on what Boyajian wrote: quote: Lemkin struggles for years to coin a word to describe what happened to Armenians and Jews and comes up with ‘genocide.’  Now we are second guessing the creator of the term about whether Armenian massacres qualify.  Does this make sense, Ragnar? Unquote. I always try to comment on people’s exact words. But when I reread it now, I realize that I maybe misunderstood Boyajian. Sorry, Boyajian!
     Gayane, did what I said about clarifying what words mean make any sense for you?( By the way, my reference to my psychologist was a joke). I respect you as a persons who fights for what you believe in, but when you have no comments after I have tried to explain myself, you must again excuse me for feeling that you are engaging in a monologue, not a dialogue.
     Karekin, Avery, the official Turkish position as far as I know is that “genocide” is a juridical term, and hence when one uses it one must give heed to juridical nuances. I believe this is mistaken. The term is a juridical term, further a research term because genocide researchers made it very clear that for research purposes they need another concept than the juridical one. Third it is a moral term which conveys our anger and condemnation of a crime. Fourth it is obviously a political term. This characteristic it shares with words like “discrimination” which is used in everyday speech, but which also has a juridical meaning which leads to quite intricate and technical  reasonings in many cases (is it discrimination or isnt it?). So conservative Turks cannot simply reject the assertion that genocide happened by pointing to the fact that the law was made after the events.  The question whether given events before 1951 constitute genocide or not, taken as a juridical question, is not impossible to answer. This is the point made by ICTJ in 2002. I believe this is correct. That the perpetrators cannot be punished by a law getting into force in 1951 for something they did in 1915, apart from the fact that most of the perpetrators probably were dead, is another matter.  

     Reply

192. In a world where fantasy persists as reality, it should come as no suprise to me that you are all inventing new conspiracies and intrigues. Believe me….it’s not all that complicated or difficult. There is nothing mysterious or devious.  The fact that you are cannibals who will eat anyone – even an Armenian – who does not agree w/ you 1000% and challenges your fantasies, is what has been revealed, more than anything else. It seems that you would rather preserve your unshakable, and somewhat arrogant ideologies rather than do pro-active things that will support, preserve and grow Armenia. Please do not try to shift the focus here….this discussion is not about me….at the same time, do not sacrifice Armenia on the altar of ideology and for the lure of fantasy. You have no right to do that. Yes, you can read Jirayr’s article and scoff, but guess what? He too has put truth on the table…reject it at Armenia’s peril.   

     Reply

193. Gayane,

     Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?

     We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal. 

     Reply

194. Avery,

     I will ask you a simple question one more time. Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now? If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you. If they said it wasn’t a genocide you shut up.

     It appears that you seriously  think that you are an Armenian commander, jumping from this front to that front, fighting ferociously against the Turks, congratulating your little successes, giving orders to your soldiers as well as the enemy soldiers(probably by mistake). What you do not realize is we are actually all (including you) keyboard knights

     Reply

195. Ragnar

     I am not an ethnicity expert but a fairly good reader. As far as I am concern, Alevis aren’t an ethnic group. There are Zaza Alevis, Kurdish Alevis, and Turkish Alevis and recently I learned that even Albanian Alevis exist. Therefore, if there is no intermarriage we cannot class them as a different ethnicity as Kurds and Turks are different ethnicity but the intermarriage is common between those groups. 

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196. Monastras:  I will ask you a simple question one more time: do you or do you not stand by this post of yours

     [Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust]

     Yes or No ? 

     Reply

197. Monastras
     I am not an expert either, and I believe there exist different definitions. But the Alevis I know intermarriage to some extent with kurdish alevi, incidentally mostly from Sivas, it appears. But marriages between them and local sunnis are extremely rare, unless there has been a change in the last years. So they satisfy one common criteria of being an ethnic group. But all such boundaries are fluid I believe, and Alevi practices in other places may be very different for all I know

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198. monastras
     there is no need to go to any international court if the question  whether the horrible fate of Armenians in 1915 can legitimately be called genocide. The ICTJ answered this in the affirmative. The events can be called genocide. ICTJ gave a legal advice, not a verdict, (see my post above). If one looks at the way the ICTJ phrased it, the criteria they used,  it is by the way very hard to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria or the Circassians in the Caucasus also suffered genocide. But the Armenian debacle was much greater than the other one, so we rightly support the Armenians, also because they  actually have been knocking on all doors to have Turks go honestly into the dark aspects of their past. Many Turks seem only to bring up the catastrophy that befell the Turks when discussing with Armenians. But this equalizing is of course unacceptable. The Armenians have stated a case and should be answered properly. But I will not repeat and repeat the word genocide which obviously applies. If one reads the stories of the massacres, the rapes, the woman and children marched to death or slaughtered in 1915-16, only people with a heart of stone can fail to be moved to compassion and demands for justice.   

     Reply

199. Այո Seervart.

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200. “Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now?”
      
     Monastras, because Armenia (or, to be exact, what was left of her after the genocide and theft of lands and properties by Ottoman Turkish barbarians) has become the subject of international law merely 20 years ago after the break-up of the USSR. The new state had to deal with many problems: consequences of a devastating earthquake, the aggression of Aliyevstan against self-determining Artsakh, and the numerous problems at state-building. Everything will come at the right time and at the right place. ICJ included. But already we have the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) resolution that ruled that the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians fits into the internationally accepted definition of genocide. We also have International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) resolution that reaffirmed that the mass murder of Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. As you may know, we also have the  increasing number of foreign parliaments, central and regional governments, EuropeanParliament, international organizations, professional associations, human rights groups, genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, and Nobel prize winners attesting to the fact of genocide.
      
      
     “If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you.”
      
     Monastras, is this the limit of Turkish mental capabilities? I mean, if someone says something to you, then you will parrot? Are you not capable of doing a simple research in non-Turkish and non-Armenian sources to try to answer a question: was it a genocide? What happened to 2-2.2 million of Western (Ottoman) Armenians from 1915 to 1923? Could 2.2 million unarmed and disorganized people—amongst them women, children, and the elderly—be ‘collaborators’ with Ottoman empire’s enemies? How did they technically ‘collaborate’ if the bulk of them lived in rural areas far detached from the frontlines of the WWI? Where are those native inhabitants of their own lands now? Where are their churches, monasteries, schools, religious seminaries, houses, pastures, bank accounts, insurance indemnities, personal properties? How could the whole people be slaughtered en masse if their government was not involved? The answer, that the rest of the world except Turks knows, offers itself: it was a premeditated, planned, and centrally-executed mass murder directed against a particular national, ethnic, racial, and religious group — the Armenians. The same mass murder was executed, although at lesser death scale, against other Ottoman Christian groups: Greeks, Assyrians, and Syriacs. When you’ll learn this, answer to yourself what kind of a nation the Turks are.

     Reply

201. Monastras,you had asked Avery this question:
     Quote
     Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now? If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you. If they said it wasn’t a genocide you shut up.
     Unquote
     The Genocide is an accepted fact for Armenia & Armenians & it is not disputable.On top so many countries around the world have recognised the Armenian Genocide committed by the Ottomans.
     For Turkey as the inheritors of the Ottomans(who committed the Armenian Genocide) the Armenian genocide is disputable.Turkey has seriously studied in approaching the International Court of Justice & has put aside a budget of $25 million for this cause.However it has not done so far (by getting proper legal advice) for the simple fact that it will lose the case since so many countries have already recognised it.
     So it is the duty of people like you to push your own government to apply to the International Court of Justice.

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202. To all Turks and their sympathizers who bloviate about lawsuits and such.
     AR already mentioned the lawsuit  (Alex Bakalian et. al vs. Republic of Turkey, the Central Bank of Turkey, and T.C. Ziraat Bankasi et. al, Case Number 2:10-CV-09596, December 15, 2010) in his post above.
      
     But here is the interesting passage:
      
     [The plaintiffs have spent recent months attempting to serve all the defendants, and then to have the court affirm their service efforts. In the August 2 order, the court denied Central Bank of Turkey and Ziraat Bank‘s motion to dismiss the complaint for insufficient service of process. The court acknowledged that the plaintiffs presented “credible evidence that their process servers made several attempts to serve the bank defendants at addresses in “New York City… [and] were repeatedly denied access to the buildings and [were even]…misdirected as to Ziraat Bank’s actual location.”] (emphasis mine)
      
      
     Now we don’t if this particular lawsuit will be ultimately successful for the plaintiffs or not: time will tell. However, I have a question:
      
      
     If Turks have nothing to hide, why are they hiding ?

     Reply

203. “Turks in Bulgaria […] also suffered genocide” (?!)

     ragnar naess,    Turks in Bulgaria were occupiers and colonizers. I regret the loss of human life, but do please call things by their name: Ottoman Turks came to invade and colonize the Bulgarians, as well as several other indigenous Balkan peoples. Turks suffered losses when Bulgarians, as well as other Balkan and Middle Eastern peoples, stood up to throw off the yoke of the Turkish oppressors. By no account were the Turkish losses in the Balkans reminiscent to genocide. Their losses were the consequence of national liberation movements of the people Turks oppressed for centuries. This has no comparison whatsoever with the premeditated and centrally-planned and executed mass murder of Armenians by the Ottoman government. Besides, for the sake of objectivity, when you talk about Turks in Bulgaria, do you care to mention what atrocities Turks have committed against the Bulgarians, as well as Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, and Montenegrins? The key to understanding what happened to Turks in the Balkans is that they were colonizers. No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless. No serious genocide scholar or a historian—unless he or she is paid by the Turks or is a professor at a Turkish university—will accept that “Turks in Bulgaria suffered genocide.” Even if as a sign of utopia we admit that “Turks in Bulgaria suffered genocide”, how exactly that relates to the genocidal extermination of the Armenians, who were nowhere near the Balkans? Among other things, Turks were motivated by the desire to salvage as much land as possible for themselves, and Armenians, residing in eastern parts of Turkey, were seen as an obstacle towards achieving the goal. Genocide of Armenians by the Turks has no remote correlation with the losses Turks had suffered as a result of expulsions of Turkish occupiers from the Balkans. You keep making mistakes lately…

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204. Gor, VTiger

     Thank you for your reply. I think that either I couldn’t explain my point or it is hard for you guys to get the point. From Turkish point of view, Armenian question was resolved a century ago right. Armenians do not occupy any place in the turkish agenda except trying to stop the useless law in USA every year.I hope every country in the world recognize this. If turkey got advise that it will loose the case then it is good for you Armenians. Knowing that Turkey will loose the case must give you extra strenght to make your application. But again, Strangely you might say. Turkey shoudl do it. Yes If that court deliver a verdict in your favour or Turkey’s favour , I will repeat that like a parrot but If It is undisputable from Armenians point of view then why are you asking Turkey to accept that it was a genocide.My argumant is when that court delivers a verdict whatever it will be, We  have to accept the outcome and even Turkey might pay some monatary compansation.Please do not tell me again it is turkey’s responsibility to aply to the court. It is your problem not Turkey’s. In my opinion, you can not call this sort of events as genocide without the International court of Justice verdict. Because turks reject the label and they have very good arguments as well.If AW had allowed me to post what really happened you would see the turkish point of view about they call it propoganda and remove it

     Reply

205. Gor
     the Genocide convention does not distinguish between colonisers and indigenous people. It deals with “protected groups” (racial,ethnic, religious or national) and certain acts done with the aim of destroying “in whole, or in part” a  protected group “as such”.

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206. Gor jan– you hit the bull’s eye when you said “is this the limit of Turkish Mental capabilities”… That is EXACTLY what is going on here… These people have no extensive education. their daily news come from television.. what they hear is what they know.. They have NO BRAIN of theirs… THey are like catle and their govt is their pastor…. why do you think they repeat the same BS as their govt.. why do you think they deny everything that their govt denies.. they are fed this BS for such a long time, that their brain works not on intelligence, individuality, compassion, understanding but machine driven propaganda..they are like zumbies….

     It is sad truly sad…

     We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal.

     You should be very proud of this Monastras.. This demonstrate the primative and barbaric traits still present in your denialists…you and  Necati are prime candidates of that….  we are not making up these things.. you denialists openly confessing with your stupid comments… but we can’t expect more than that…

     Mina, a Turkish woman has more balls than you Monastras so no matter how much you try to put her down by saying she grabbed an Armenian as he husband, she remains a better person than you… 

     Gayane
      

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207. Ragnar- why don’t you just for once tell us what EXACTLY you want to accomplish here? Your confused, enigma presence on these pages does not benefit  anyone but yourself..I understand you are thirsty of information and you being here you gather material for your so called book.. us.. however, as a professor or a researcher (as you claim to be) you need to go to archives of NON-Turkish govts and individuals and not jump in into such discussions as this.. obviously there is alot of good data on these pages alone but unfortunately you can’t quote anyone on these pages for private research purposes.. so i don’t know why you are here… and please don’t tell me about such BS as oh i want to understand, i am working on mutual conversation.. i am doing this and that….

     You are as confused as a lost Turk living in Turkey… but at least they have an excuse.. i don’t know what is your excuse…..

     Thank you

     Gayane        

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208. Monastras,what is exactly your goal to achieve?If you couldn’t do it by Genocide…

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209. gayane
     I must admit I am frustrated by you. I tried to explan something when you asked, but you do not comment on my answer. In a discussion in working life or in a school, or in any other normal setting this would not work. But it apparently does work in AW? I tried to repeat something about words having different meanings which is a clue to my  point of view, but you make no comment to this. I am also wondering about monastras, Avery and gor. Are these the fights Turks and Armenians love to engage in on the pages of AW?

     Reply

210. Ragnar-  I am sorry… ohhh so sorry that I am frustrating you.. if you are frustrated then I am wayyyyyyyyyyyy past that but i don’t complain do i? :). we have asked you million times what  your intentions are on these pages and all we got was confused, messed up, two sided answers.. and frankly my dear I don’t give a damn that you are getting frustrated..all i care is for you to be honest with yourself and to others….

     Sorry for the blunt response Ragnar but you have overextended your stay … not that we don’t want you joining us, it is just we are tired of your games.. period…

     Have a good day sir..

     MJM is smart not to deal with you anymore… and he did warn me….

     Gayane       

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211.  Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)
     Even though you mention my name  in your every other post, i will keep silence until You or AW invites me back to  commenthere in AW .

      You have recently, for the last 2-3 days seem so different again. Looks someone else is using your KB. I  am used to hear this jargon  like “More balls, no brain, zumbies”, from “someone” else , but  i am disappointed to hear from you. I would take the old Gayane if asked.
      This was good one for Vanoush: “i read the 300,000 Churches from an article written by a high ranking Armenian Apostolic priest.”   and made me smile for the first time after a looong boring day.  Thanks.

     Actually i had read it before and made a small math for not area but “church per Armenian”…However, the result  was not as funny as yours , Monastras.

     A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks.

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212. My friend Gayane, I feel sad if some Armenians cannot say more to the cruel ethnic cleansing of Turks than “these things happen”. It plays right into the hands of the nationalist Turks who will love to depict the Armenians as people who do not care about humanism but only about themselves. These Turks are also shrugging their shoulders at the Armenian genocide and saying “these things happen”. It is sad when peoples who experienced so much awful suffering belittle the sufferings of each others. But the clue lies in the undignified competition for victim status behind the idea of  the “worst possible crime”. Then it becomes imperative to deny Turks the status of victims of genocide. My point is that one must recognise the suffering of others, even criminals and colonisers, otherwise one dilutes the humanistic message which is universal. Inncent Turkish villagers did not deserve to die in 1877-78. When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder. And he holds that “this has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide”. Well, the theme was the criteria for genocide, which gor apparenlty is not able to remeber….   Lastly:Why am I here? To learn about Armenians, how you think. If I didnt I would miss a very important ingredient in my understanding of the situation.But will you ever understand me, Gayane, if you are not able to comment on anything I say!
      

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213. Ragnar you said the following: obviously there is no winning with you….

     I tried to repeat something about words having different meanings which is a clue to my  point of view,– NO EXTRA, DIFFERENT or ALIEN MEANING WHEN IT COMES TO THE WORD GENOCIDE… RAGNAR… do you appreciate the fact that Genocide is Genocide? and THIS IS what we have been repeating over and over and apparently you are not getting it… save me your logistics and scientific explanations.. i honestly do not find them attractive nor useful… only to you they are.. who are you representing ..??? who are you to discredit all those who already said it was a Genocide… Go think about that.. don’t ask someone who had family members who directly were impacted by this Genocide, who had family members who devoted THEIR ENTIRE ORPHAN LIFE to find and reunite all the other orphans left behind after this Genocide….you are asking me to give a better meaning or some other explanation of the word??? ARE YOU SERIOUS???? 

     I am also wondering about monastras, Avery and gor. Are these the fights Turks and Armenians love to engage in on the pages of AW?

     Please do not mix and match my friends, Avery and Gor with likes like Monastras and Turks who are likeminded..I see him very primative and barbaric minded… and he does not deserve to be limped alongside with such intelligent and educated people such as Avery and Gor.. You better think twice before you write something.. because obviously you are not reading what Avery and Gor are saying and why they are saying it… I know this may sound weird to you Ragnar but we are not fighting…. we are debating and discussing and shutting up the denialists from their continued distraction of the truth.. HUGEEEEEEE difference between fighting and discussing/ debating and challenging.. Hopefully that helped to clearify some matters.. 

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214. Yeah, ragnar naess.   Armenians have no just cause to fight for. Didn’t you know? They just ‘love’ to engage in a fight with the Turks just for a fun of it.  How about you? Why do you raise in these pages? Because you love ‘dialogues’ that supply ideas for your book or because you love doing linguistic gymnastics with the word ‘genocide’? Or both?

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215. Mr. Naess:
      
     People here are very polite towards you (except me), and they indulge you out of respect – despite your transparent attempts to deceive and divide, under the ridiculous cloak of ‘discussion’. Others more sophisticated and subtle than you have tried: it is not working – it will never work.
      
      
     Myself and my fellow Armenians are not engaged in a, quote, ‘fight’.
     And we don’t  ‘love engaging in’  fights. All of us have much better things to do with our lives and time.
     But as I have said before: it is like going to the dentist; not pleasant, but necessary.
      
      
     Read the level of discourse on these pages, the deep knowledge and high-level of intellect  of Armenian posters here (except yours truly: I am a dirty, low-brow street fighter from a rough neighborhood in Yerevan  called  Կոնդ), and compare that to Turk posters @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet.
      
      
     What myself, Gor, and many of  our compatriots  are engaged in is information warfare: Turks, Azeri-Tatars, and their Turcophile friends and Agents are engaged in a relentless campaign of dissemination of Anti-Armenian disinformation throughout the blogosphere. As long as they do that, we have no choice but to counter. All of us have other things to do, most of us have full time jobs, bills to pay, etc.
     But our brothers and sisters in Armenia and Artsakh are in danger: we have to be on watch  watch their back.
     It is somewhat similar to a courtroom trial: allegations and falsehoods presented by the opposing side – if left  unchallenged – give the impression to the “Jury” that they are truths. You can guess who the “Jury” might be in our case.
      
      
     You guys keep insulting our intelligence by your juvenile attempts to convince us to engage in debates, dialogues, discussions, blah, blah, blah,…
     Read the posts again: NOBODY here is buying it.
      
     Are we supposed to just get along with Anti-Armenian Denialists here ?
     Are you kidding ?

     Reply

216. well, Avery, gor and Gayane, I wish you luck as ambassadors of the Armenian cause, but….

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217. ragnar naess,   first and foremost, the genocide convention does not apply to the expulsion and atrocities against Turks in Bulgaria and the Balkans so it can distinguish between colonizers and indigenous people. The genocide convention cannot apply to each and every human atrocity. If it could, we would have ‘genocides’ all over the globe irrespective whether killings of the people occurred as a result of just or unjust wars, invasions, occupations, colonization campaigns, or a murder on a street. There is also no such thing in the definition of genocide, as per 1948 UN Convention, as “protected groups”. Article II clearly states that genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. No “protected groups”, sorry. Atrocities against indigenous peoples throughout centuries by the Turks and atrocities against Turks during their expulsion from the Balkans, which Turks invaded and colonized, and the government-planned and executed campaign of deliberate physical extermination of Armenians as a race are two divergently different instances. Nazi Germans suffered great loss of life during the Stalingrad and Kursk campaigns on the Russian soil that they occupied in WWII. Go ahead and characterize this as ‘genocide’ and see what Russians and Allies will say in response. Don’t you get the point?

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218. “When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder.” 
      
     ragnar naess,   you owe me an apology. I never uttered such words. If you refer me to any such words in my comments, I’ll take my words to you back. If you won’t, then you’ll apologize for misrepresenting my comments. Fair deal?

     Reply

219. Necati Genis:      —-“Hayturks” is a product of your Turkish imagination or you might have smoked something really strong in a third-class bazaar in Constantinople to come up with such idiotic mix? When Hays were on the world map creating Indo-European civilization, Turks were non-existent. Only in the 11th century AD Seljuk Turks abandoned their sh**holes in Mongolian steppes and around the mountains of Altay and emerged as nomadic conquerors (not builders or creators) on the maps. Therefore, my simple question to you: how the name of a noble people can merge in some made-up term with a barbarian one?

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220. NEcati— obviously you people are very very slow to understand..but not blaming you.. it is not yourfault.. it is just the genetics.. you know.. too sad..

     You said..
     Necati Genis
     August 16, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)
     Even though you mention my name  in your every other post, i will keep silence until You or AW invites me back to  commenthere in AW .
     You have recently, for the last 2-3 days seem so different again. Looks someone else is using your KB. I  am used to hear this jargon  like “More balls, no brain, zumbies”, from “someone” else , but  i am disappointed to hear from you. I would take the old Gayane if asked.
       This was good one for Vanoush: “i read the 300,000 Churches from an article written by a high ranking Armenian Apostolic priest.”   and made me smile for the first time after a looong boring day.  Thanks.
     Actually i had read it before and made a small math for not area but “church per Armenian”…However, the result  was not as funny as yours , Monastras.
     A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks.

     We told YOU many times to dissapear did we not??? Why are you still here?? So why are not silent?? You posting does not tell me that.. is it because your Turkish friends on Turkish sites are not as welcomed and responsive to you?/ Do you have disorder where you NEED or WANT attention??? 

     And you by calling us HyeTurks tells us nothing but hatred toward us..  how primative of you…lol I laugh at your comments…LOL

     Gayane      

      

     Reply

221. WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.. Ragnar I thought you being a researcher and a professor, you would be much more in keen with the information provided to you on these pages… vs Necati or Monastras but you are on the same boat..

     YOU keep repeating the same thing over and over and Gor and Avery gave you specifics and detailed information WHY your below argument is without grounds…you said

     My point is that one must recognise the suffering of others, even criminals and colonisers, otherwise one dilutes the humanistic message which is universal.

     I say you have missed, you are absolutely missing and no doubt, you WILL miss the point.. give it up…

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222. Asa Karo jan.. asa.. apres.. shat siretsi qo gratsa…:)

     Gor jan– Xosq chka .. brilliant…

     Avery jan– Excellent… Qefs galisa vor kartum em qo gratsnera..:)

     I guess I have been dirty and rude and bad to our guests… :( what shall we do??? .. i hope they forgive us (tear coming down my eye)…  

     Ragnar- you are leaving already?? not again!!!!!.. you always do this sir.. you come in here with your blown up attitude then once we put a hole in your bubble, you leave… is that how you work??? ehhhh.. Ragnar Ragnar.. it is soooo obvious that there is no winning when it comes to the truth and justice will alwas prevail… and in your case, we always find holes in your logic and when you see there is no where o run anymore, you leave the pages.. hope you got more material for your book but i doubt even the world’s material will not change you…  

     Gayane

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223. Ms/Mr  KARO,

     Hayturk is not a race i created in my mind. It is a result of a survey proven with  scintific searches. 

     And what is wrong with being brothers rather than enemies ?  Karo, My brother .

     Ms Gayane,

     You know, i like you Armenians very much ,no matter which hysteric feelings you have for us Turks. And i know you Hays also like Us Turks appearently  because many of you visit Turkish news papers everday. NO?  

     or is it a Stockholm syndome ?
      

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224. Necati– you trying to be a smart a*($(#*$(*#(*(#*$(#*$ with your sarcastic tone makes no difference… what Karo said was legit.. what you say is not legit… so keep mumbling your sarcastic posts.. no one cares.. and do you mind sharing that survey of yours that proven the Hayturk is a race with scientific searches please… ohhhh can’t wait.. sooo excited…

     Oh Necati- It is not the love for you denialists that we visit the Turkish sites, it is because we need to stop your denialists spreading lies and mis information… so keep dreaming…  but know this: WE WILL CONTINUE to visit your sites just to make sure we shut denialist up right on their track… you can count on that… oh you are speaking of hysteric feelings?? LOL you should not talk… you are border line hysteric…you can’t leave this dicussion because you are obsessed.. you can’t handle the truth and all you want to do is inject your ugly truth but guess what??? ain’t working… .. so first look at yourself and then call my friends hysteric people….

     Reply

225. Necati Genis, mr or mrs, doesn’t matter…

     What survey? The one that speculates that because of mass rape, forced marriages, enslavement in filthy Turkish harems, forced conversion to Islam, or Turkification out of fear, some segment of modern-day Turks might have noble Armenian genes? And you think there’s nothing wrong in such distasteful deeds of your forefathers?
      
     I’m not your ‘brother’, don’t give me this cheap Turkish flattery. Your brothers are tribes residing in Central Asian steppes and on the mountains of Altay in Mongolia. By the way, how do Turks understand brotherhood? Is mass murdering innocent people, torturing and mutilating them, raping their women, daughters, and sisters, burning and burying them alive considered a ‘brotherly’ attitude with the Turks?
      
     You don’t want us to be enemies? Fine. Then offer apologies for the genocide of Armenians!

     Reply

226. Monastaras,

     Let me hepl you to understand why so far we have not gone to international court.
     What’s the rush? Are we in a hurry?? Absolutle not.

     The longer it takes the bigger our demands will get. MAybe 50 years ago Turkey could have get away by just appologizing for Genocide.  Not anymore Monastras.  It is not about recognizing or oppologizing anymore.  It is about WESTERN ARMENIA. 

     Do yo get it??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

     Reply

227. Necati,

     re.  Hayturk is not a race i created in my mind. It is a result of a survey proven with  scintific searches. 

     You must have a hell of a stomach for such an appetite. 
     Wouldn’t it solve all the problems Necati? Think about it. HAYturks.

     Finaly some Turks found a way to legitimize not only their existence but also their birthcertificates by calling themselves “Hayturks”.  

     I guess next step should be claiming that TORK ANGEGH and TARKU belong to pantheon of ancient turkish gods.   

     Wouldn’t you Necati wish to recognize ARmenian Genocide in return for being recognized as HAYturk by us??  Keep on dreaming amigo.
      

     Reply

228. Ms.  Gayane, I will keep dreaming.

     Karo, I will find the link  to the search.

     AR, What do you mean ” western Armenia” ?  Oktemberyan, Artashat  and Yerevan ?

     Reply

229. “And i know you Hays also like Us.”
     necati, history is part of current reality. Those
     who ignore their history are not living in the real world. See definition of
     the word “Turk” in Webster Dictionary. It describes Turks as a cruel, brutal and domineering person. Cruelty and… are built in your DNA. Once upon of the time, an Armenian boy was sitting on the one of
     the sidewalks of Istanbul [islombol] learning Armenian language. Red Sultan noticed him. Approached
     the young boy and asked him, what he was up to? The Armenian boy responded that
     he is learning Armenian Language. The Red Sultan asked the boy why he needs to
     learn Armenian Language? No one has right to speak any other language except
     Turkish. The boy responded that he is devoted Christian and he might go to haven
     after his death. The Red Sultan told the boy, you might go to hell then what?
     the boy responded that if that happens, he knows already how to speak Turkish! So
     my friend now you know your destiny. Keep practicing Turkish Language. Believe
     it or not I am learning Turkish because I believe one must know his brother’s language!

     Reply

230. ” Believe it or not I am learning Turkish because I believe one must know his brother’s language!”

     Papken,

     Why not come to Turkey? We are happy here with our Armenian brothers.And they are doing pretty good  . you can see many journalist, Artist, composer and so on  in Istanbul.
     Dont care  all hatred here in AW.You will see there is no problem here in Turkey for Hays.. And you will find many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest.

     About that Red one, i do not want to make comment because in the past there happened some  bad things not only in Ottoman Empire but also in other countries.

     You are always Welcome to Turkey.

     Note: I made a search in AW for the DNA link…but…for some reason it is lost..maybe i missed. I will find it tomorrow. Now it is too late My brothers..Have a nice day/night.

     Reply

231. Before i go  to bed,

     http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/turk?show=0&t=1313539014

     Could you give me your link ?

     Reply

232. Necati,

     re.   AR, What do you mean ” western Armenia” ?  Oktemberyan, Artashat  and Yerevan ?

     Nope!  Oktemberyan, ARtashat and Yerevan are in CENTRAL ARMENIA.  

     You have any other questions? Don’t hesitate, bring them on!
      

     Reply

233. Necati-  Are you someone living in Turkey??  What is the  level of your education? I am sorry but how you put your thoughts and sentences together are simply childlike.. it reads just like if it was a child who wrote it.. very incoherent…I wonder sometimes how people with your mental capability has the audacity to come here and teach Armenians something… Your best bet is to continue to dream like you agreed.. because besides that I doubt you will get anywhere….sorry for being to abrupt…

     I am sorry Necati– would you give us some statistics where you claim

      And you will find many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest

     Are you trying to lie to yourself or are you completely in ignorance about Armenians being pretty good in Turkey.. You must have been smoking the hookah too long “my brother”.. (i put that in quotes because i don’t see you as my brother… i am just pointing out how ridiculeous you sound when you use such words …

     You and gazillion of you don’t measure up to one Avery.. thank your lucky stars that you even have the honor to be on the same pages and reading his own written comments………p

     Gayane

     Reply

234. Gor: I wrote yesterday:  If one looks at the way the ICTJ phrased it, the criteria they used,  it is by the way very hard to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria or the Circassians in the Caucasus also suffered genocide. Unquote.
     Gor, true what you said was: No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless.unquote.

     But i believe ,my challenge to you is still there. the reactionary Turks, when asked about the Armenian fate will say: No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless.unquote. Now the situation has some differences if we talk about a comparison of Armenians and Turkish Bulgarians/bulgarian Turks. However, remember that we are talking about the suffering of innocent civilians. If the Cossacks, the Russian army and the Bulgarian bands had simply been concerned with the Ottoman army, I could understand you. By the way, maybe you forgot to comment on the Circassians?
     And please do not answer except by looking at the reasoning in the ICTJ and try to fit in other names of groups that were killed or destroyed in another way, not  necessarily the whole group, as you knwo very well.

     Reply

235. No Gayane, I am not leaving the AW, but possibly I may leave you as a discussant because I see nowhere that you relate to what I actually say. As you see, gor relates to someting I said and he was right in correcting me. This is my idea of dialogue, and the idea of dialogue in the civilized world. I am not critical of all you say, just as Boyajian once said: Gayane, sometimes you can be so funny. I agree. But I’d like you to be more discussant ans less cheer-leader from time to time. Best wishes from your friend Ragnar. I will concentrate on following up Boyajian’s invitation about what to DO to obtain justioce for Armenians. I already presented some points….. 

     Reply

236. AR,

     I checked all the maps in internet but all says what i say..Could you please give me an official link ?

     Anyway, i found more interesting one , written by a group of  Armenian  scientists.

     Here :
     
     Thursday, December 24, 2009
     Cansu ÇAMLIBEL
     YEREVAN – Hürriyet
     Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities. European politicians, who have supported the recent normalization efforts, will also back the project, they say
     
     While Ankara and Yerevan struggle to ease long-standing tension that has divided the two neighbors for years, a discovery about genes appears to remind everyone how close the two nations actually are.

     Armenian scientists said they observed high genetic matching between the two nations during their research on leukemia.

     “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other.” Savak Avagian, director of Armenia’s bone marrow bank, said in an interview with daily Hürriyet.
     Calling on his Turkish colleagues to examine the genetic similarities of the two nations in addition to asking for funds from the European Union, Avagian said he believes European politicians, who have supported the recent normalization efforts between Turkey and Armenia, would also back the project.
     Genetic research in 1998 also supported the Armenian scientists’ findings. A project titled “The Genetic Relations between Mediterranean Communities,” prepared by three Spanish scholars from the molecular biology division of Complutense University in Madrid, defines the Turks and Armenians as two branches with the same genetic origin.
     However, Avagian said few people know the genetic similarities between Turks and Armenians. “The high ratio that we observed in bone marrow matching supports our thesis. I am sure everybody will be surprised when they hear this scientific truth.”
     Marrow cooperation
     The Armenian Marrow Bank has 15,000 Armenian donors in its records and is cooperating with 59 other banks through the World Marrow Donor Association.
     Mihran Nazeretian, chief doctor of the bank, defined the institution’s mission as trying to “discover whether there is an equivalence of cells between Armenian donors and a patient living elsewhere in the world.”
     “The patient’s ethnic background, citizenship, or political and religious views are not important at all,” Nazeretian said, signaling his willingness to cooperate with Turkish marrow banks.
     Avagian said he visited Turkey in 2005 and met with the executives of marrow banks in both Ankara and Istanbul with an offer of a joint project. But Turkish officials were not interested in Avagian’s offer and applied alone for EU funds on marrow research. In the end, their request was rejected.
     Noting the more convenient atmosphere between Turkey and Armenia, Avagian said: “If we knock on the doors of the European Union together, they would consider our request twice. Now, there is a political motivation, too. The bloc has already voiced support for the normalization talks between the two nations and I bet many politicians would support such medical research.”
     Nazeretian said they would provide marrow without question if a Turkish patient would match with one of their Armenian donors.
     The doctor told of his experience with Turkish patients, saying: “From Armenia, we found 43 matches with the bank in Istanbul and five with the one in Ankara and we made immediate inquiries. However, nobody responded. Unfortunately none of those matching results led to a marrow transplant.”
     Nazeretian said there might be various reasons for the failure. “Maybe the patient found another donor in Turkey or the patient was lost before our response,” he said.
     He also said there have been Armenian matches for Turks living in Germany as well but that no matches had resulted in transplants. “My only wish is for a transplant between an Armenian donor and a Turkish patient to happen one day,” he said.

     Now all i can say is : sometimes brothers make fight eachother at home..but still brothers.The next day they will forget it. Dont you think so my Hayturk brothers ?

     Reply

237. Gayane,

     I know we have time difference .So you must have been  sleeping  at this time. But when ever i write some here in AW you reply in 1 min.

     You never sleep ?  Sleep is good for women.dont forget to sleep 8 hours a day.

     Reply

238. oh..My Education ?

     Not too high.I am one of the most uneducated people in Turkey.

      You know my teacher in first school was getting almost crazy everyday because of me.Fortunately  She was appointed to somewhere else…

     Reply

239. Monastras,read the treaty of Sevres:
     Quote
     The punishment of the crime of genocide – whether called exterminations, evacuations, mass atrocities, annihilation, liquidations or massacres – as well as the obligation to make restitution to the survivors of the victims, were envisaged by the victorious Allies of the First World War and included in the text of the Peace Treaty of Sèvres of 10 August 1920 between the Allies and the Ottoman Empire (2). This Treaty contained not only a commitment to try Turkish officials for war crimes committed by Ottoman Turkey against Allied nationals (3) , but also for crimes committed by Turkish authorities against subjects of the Ottoman Empire of different ethnic origin, in particular the Armenians, crimes which today would be termed genocide, and would also fall under the more broadly generic term “crimes against humanity”.Unquote
     Already Turkey is charged.

     Reply

240. Gayane, thanks for watching my back.

     Don’t worry though: when  certain Turks, hysterical and foaming at the mouth, call me ‘radical extremist’, I feel a great sense of accomplishment. 

     “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Barry Goldwater 1964.
      

     Reply

241. ragnar naess,   I will readily refute your artificially cooked-up ‘comparison’ between the expulsion of and associated atrocities against the occupying Bulgarian Turks (there is no such a thing as ‘Turkish Bulgarians’) and the premeditated, government-planned and executed campaign of race annihilation of Armenians, whenever you accept that you misrepresented me by putting in my mouth the words I never uttered, namely: “Gor says: ‘these things happen’”.  I missed the Circassians by accident, I admit, because I concentrated on Bulgarian Turks, but you conveniently avoided an apology for ascribing to me the words I never said.  Whenever you take them back, we’ll go on.

     Reply

242. VTiger, I agree with your thinking on the Treaty of Sevres.  It clearly indicts the Turks of crimes against humanity and intended to extract a punishment/reparation from Turkey.  Whether or not it was ratified, the historical record of a determination of guilt exists. 

     Reply

243.  ..many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest.”

     Necati, you missed my points. First of all, the reason Avery and all real Armenians, including me, feel to you and your so called “many Armenians” is that we have determined to fight for
     justice. We know for sure that justice is our side. One day we would have our day. People like Avery live forever. Our future generations will read these comments and they will discover themselves who they are. I am planning to return to my Western Armenia not Turkey.
     See you in Western Armenia!

     Reply

244. Hi Boyajian, The Sevres Treaty not only it still exists, but it is a very legitimate highly regarded document, because it was signed by the most advanced and powerful European nations as well as Russia and most importantly it was also signed by Turkey.

     Reply

245. Hi Papken, Avery has the blood of our powerful, highly intelligent and legendary forefather and the leaders of our past; mind you we bear the same blood in our veins as well.  Something we could all be proud of in the memory of our grand past and until today my friend. 

     Tell my Papken, someone by the name of Vanoush jested with me recently, because I mentioned on a few of my posts earlier that we have had in the Turkish Republic a great many Churches, say about 300,000 of them.  I went along trusting the numbers with a high ranked priest’s writings on the web.  Then afterwards I checked the numbers with the above mentioned Churches and it was only in the thousands.  Do you or anyone in here kow the real number of the Armenian Churches plus the Monasteries in Turkey on or before 1915, or could it be that perhaps the high ranking priest was quoting the numbers of all the Christian Churches in Turkey before 1915 (including the Syriacs, Greeks, Pontiacs, Armenians and Assyrians)?  I’ll appreciate knowing the true facts so that I’ll know for sure.  Thanks.

     Reply

246. I made a typo above.  I meant to start with my post saying “Tell me Papken“.

     Reply

247. Hi Seervart, if you hear of any news or research related to the Treaty of Sevres please post it here.  I will do the same.  I would love to read any comments regarding its power and significance from a legal and historical perspective.  As I said above, the determination of Turkey’s guilt has already been made.  We need now to use every avenue available to us to receive our just compensation which I believe will strenghthen RA in the long run.  Turkey has an obligation to meet.

     I think it is fair to suggest that the Nuremburg Trials were built on the foundations first developed with the drafting of the Treaty of Sevres.

     Reply

248. thank you Papken.
     thank you Seervart (again).

     It’s an honor.  the same genes handed down to us all from our ancestors imperceptibly compel us all to do what  we do for our people. Some of us have more time to contribute than others;  some of us have more funds to contribute  than others: most important thing is that  we all participate in the effort to the best of our abilities.

     Just the same, I don’t consider what I do worthy of notice by my compatriots here: I am not on the LOC facing death every day from Azeri snipers, like our  Artsakhtsi men.

     Reply

249. VTiger

     Yes most poweful nations tried to impose this treaty on the Turks but The treaty of Sevres was the death warrant of the Turkish nation. That’s why the Turks screwed this pieces of paper and threw in the dust bin. Some posters in the Armenian media regularly quote this dead treaty. Bu they do not realize that this baby was dead  when born 

     Reply

250. Monastras,
     Remember that we are discussing International Court of Justice…Even if the Treaty of Sevres was not ratified it does not mean that the Ottomans did not commit the Genocide.
     Furthermore there are the court cases of the new Turkish republic against the Young Turks… the list goes on & on & I can carry on for pages & page… but I’m working to make a living at the same time… you google & read & it is enlightning if it interests you.
     As said before for us the Genocide is a fact & indisputable.If you have a problem with it you just push your government to apply to the ICJ.

     Reply

251. “..mind you we bear the same blood in our veins as well.
     Dear Seervart, of course I don’t mind. All of us who care about our national interests are real Armenians. I wrote “like Avery” not just Avery. All of you have the real Armenian blood. Yes Mernem jes ameneen hamar! Tser chave tough yes tanem. As to exact number of churches,
     I don’t know and I don’t know if any one knows yet. Soon a Ph.D. student will
     come up to correct answer. I am also looking for exact number and the name of
     our soldiers who died in World War I and II. My dream is to built a monument
     for them in every Armenian church. If any one of you are interested to work on
     this project let me know. As to Treaty of Severs, it is true that it is not
     part of international law, however, the crime against humanity committed by
     Ottomans has been admitted in this document. It is a confession of a criminal witnessed
     by very credible people. We need a national movement to create a core to
     enforce the charges brought against Turks. Eight years ago, I went to law
     school just to pursue this goal.

     Reply

252. Yes Boyajian, I will let you know if I hear anything about our rights of the Sevres Treaty of course.  You know a while ago, but not too long ago there was an article right in here in the AW about both the Sevres Treaty and I believe about the Wilson Arbitration Award as well.  I feel that there is a good possiblity that our leaders or at least some of our leaders they may be in the process of pursuing it.  I pray and hope that this would be right.  If it so, then surely in time we’ll hear about it.

     You are quite right, I mean when finally we do receive our just compensation from the Turks, it can only help a great deal and certainly not hurt both Armenia proper and Artsakh; as it is all interconnected and meshed together for our just cause.

     Reply

253. “That’s why the Turks screwed this piece of paper and threw in the dust bin.”
      
     Yes, otherwise Turks would have been held responsible for occupying the lands of native peoples and physically exterminating them in the last years of the Ottoman empire and during the first years of the Republican Turkey. By a sheer luck, namely: the emergence of the Bolshevik Russia in the early 1920s, to whom Mustafa Kemal first pledged allegiance and then screwed them in a typically Turkish sly way, Turks could preserve as much lands as possible from the crumbled Ottoman empire, already emptied from Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians in the acts of genocide. However, Woodrow Wilson’s Mandate on Armenia still exists and the 1923 Lausanne Treaty that was signed after the Treaty of Sèvres, has no Republic of Armenia as a signatory. After the demise in 1991 of the Soviet Union, which signed the Lausanne Treaty, the only treaty that bears official signatures of both Turkey and the Republic of Armenia is the Treaty of Sèvres. Therefore, by no means is this treaty “in the dust bin”. Unless you’re daydreaming, of course…

     Reply

254. Ragnar- you said this

     Gayane, sometimes you can be so funny. I agree. But I’d like you to be more discussant ans less cheer-leader from time to time.

     Of course I can be funny.. I deal with you clowns who clown yourselves on these pages and pretend you knowit all.. and I can’t help but be funny…:) Guess what??? Know it alls will get ridiculed if their arguments are ridiculeous to the core.. and you Ragnar present some outrageous and ridiculous arguments..Sometimes I wonder about you…especially when you give me advice..LOL . I am sorry and who are you to tell me what I can and can’t do??? I believe I am on OUR OWN ARMENIAN pages… it does say Armenian Weekly right?   Thanks for the advice but I would say stick to what you know best..and that is  ” How much can I confuse Armenians with my messed up ideas, throught processes, data…ect…ect..” 

     But I will take you advice and sleep on it because you took the time to write it…now a bit of advice from me…..take it or leave it…

     “Please make sure you use less google to educate yourself about my people, Genocide and Armenian History, and spend less time with your Turkish friends to gather up data for your book but spend more time in NON-Turkish govt offices and their archives, eye witnesses accounts, other publications written by NON- Turkish denialists..” you will see that it is a whole different world.. … … 

       I am sorry the Ambassador of Turkey, did not know we are required to have discussions with you..but do you mind telling my friends and everyone what you thought they were doing all this time??? (I won’t include myself because apparently I am not having a discussion with you)?? I guess they were just sitting around  dwindling their fingers right?? WRONG. You know what they were doing Ragnar??? They were trying to EDUCATE YOU… you yourself said you are not an expert and don’t know much about Armenians… but obviously you turned out to be a  bad guest.. because you have ignored, overlooked, mistook my friends attempts to give you PLENTY OF DETAILED and VERY ACCURATE information… and now YOU are telling ME and rejecting EVERYONE ELSE who DID give you GREAT discussions to be more discussant??? LOL  guess I have to turn the tables and tell you sir that you are hillarious…lol

     Ragnar… you do leave the pages once you feel defeated because every attempt you make you are shot down …and instead of embarassing yourself more, you feel it is necessary to bail out with such excuses… i need more time because i have so many projects going on.. i am working on a leaflet, I am having a hard time discussing with Gayane because she i just TOOOOOOOOOOO CHEERY and not discussant…. aggghhh.. so tired of your games Ragnar….but unlike you, I will not give up… even with my Cheerleader self….:)

     Have a good day sir…

     Gayane      

       

     Reply

255. Ragnar–  my friend asked you for an apology.. and yet to receive it… please be a man and apologize…

     ………When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder.”
      
     ragnar naess,   you owe me an apology. I never uttered such words. If you refer me to any such words in my comments, I’ll take my words to you back. If you won’t, then you’ll apologize for misrepresenting my comments. Fair deal?

     Reply

256. Apres Papken jan… I am absolutely interested in your project.. even though I work hard and not make enough money, I am always ready for my country… I would love to get yours, Avery, Seervart, Gor e-mail.. not sure what is the best to do that…

     Gor jan and Avery jan– thank you for sticking it to them… shat lav zgatsi…. 

     Seervart jan and Boyajian jan– yes dzes shat em sirum..:)    

     Gayane  

     Reply

257. You are welcomed Avery. You are well regarded here, not only by myself but many oterhs as well, because you are intelligent, patriotic, vigilant and you devote a great deal of your time setting the records straight with denialist Turks that lurks around on these columns.  And I must say I find our Gayane to be on the same page as you!

     Avery, You and I do not necessarily have to go and fight as our wonderful men of arms are doing it every day of their precious lives for the sake of our Artsakhian lands.  But enlightening people with your wisdom and your words, (Turks or otherwise) is a powerful thing too.  Don’t forget the power of words and of the mind.  Enthusing other Armenians and other people from various nationalities is a work of, «Հայապահպանում» as we say it in Armenian, and that is vitally important.
     

     Reply

258. Necati– thank you for thinking of my well being…but i have my family and my friends both on and off of these pages to do that.. so instead of writing dumb comments, why don’t you think about how you can apologize for you represent.. the biggest denialist…and acknolwedge that what your barbaric ancestors did was crime against humanity.. especially against my people….. maybe then I would think you truly care about me.. otherwise go back to your dream….. 

     Reply

259. I should also give as I have in the past great credit to our Gor and Boyajian also.

     Reply

260. VTiger

      I wonder why only two people answered my very crucial question. You and the other guy answered half heartedly and your answer was unconvincing and probably you didn’t believe what you said to me. Why will I push the turkish goverment to take the issu to the court while it isn’t my interest. It is your interest. Let me tell you an example right. I was working for a company in Turkey and was sacked unfairly. The company who sacked me didn’t take me to court to find out whether or not they are responsible for my dismissal. I had to go to court and made the company to  pay me for my  unfair dismissal.If you still pretend not to understand what I am saying. I can not help you 

     Reply

261.  Monastras—it is a mute point of explaining anything to you and your peanut gallery….

     But your crucial (but in reality a nonsense question) was answered many times.. you people are just tooo slow to understand and get something huh?  You must be because i don’t know how many times one need to repeat himself or herself… when you are a denialist, it is hard to get anything through the denialists head.. instead of playing a little sneak, why don’t you admit that deep down, you know the truth..you know everything that you currently have and enjoy are ALL DUE to those who were raped, barbarically murdered and marched to their own death… if your barbaric ancestors did not attempt to wipe out an entire race (Unlucky to them, their attempt failed even though we lost a great deal of human life), you woulld not have a tongue 10 ft long.. it is because you sit on other’s wealth and riches… if we took all that away, what will remain is what your ancestors started with.. NOTHING of their own…jus nomadic and poor group of humans…. now you get it??? 

     It is time for your denialists and your ugly govt to man up and fess up and pay up and move on…..

     Gayane

     Reply

262. Necati and all other denialists— just yet another example to show how much love and friendship your Turkish brethren illustrate?? Pay attention to the bolded sections… I say you denialists are all without a doubt danger to society especially Armenians.. you will take the first chance to do the same as your ancestors did to mine… oh another note… guess your denialists posts do get published.. but I have yet to see mine on your anti-Armenian Turkish sites.. .guess AW is more open minded, and freedom of speech advocate than yours.. read and divulge yourself in your brethren sub-tribunal way of thinking… not too ar off than yours..

     Mark
     August 16, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     I know this will never make it up to your commnet box, but i try anyways,
     You Armenians should go one and get a life and move on, this issue is a loosing battle for Amenians and if you are looking to future saying Turks have enemies and one day the whole World unite and do things to Turks as they do to Iraq, Libya and other places and once more us Armenians will get an other chance to stab the Turks from back and revolt inside like 1914 this time join other forces to claim land, you are dreaming,no conventional weapons would break the will of the Turkish people, as you will see very soon PKK and its suporters will be put to test and if it creates street by street figthing PKK suporters in Turkey will be marched to north Iraq or Syria like Armenians in 1915, and if you think that neclear stand off will put Turkey in termoil think again Turkey has nuclear weapons, and if lets say your dream will show his ugly head, then when you put the mouse in the corner you know what he does to cat, total nuclear blow up , so cut the this non sense and be truthful, and balme your grandperents for starting the figth by taking arms against the host nation with its enemies and doomd the rest of the innocent armenians, take responsibility no nation will denger their national unity and if you do not belive me go watch in Netfelix, Gellipollu, and see how Turks fight for more than a year defated England,French new zeland and Australia and african asian mercineries under what conditions, than you will understand what will become of your young generation of incase of new war starts,
     please get over this and stop forming your fragile union under the hatred of Turks and making ANCA employed with this non sense will get you nothing but more distruction
     Thank you and 4 Armenian young wonderful students works for me and I love every single one of them, but this issue is wrong to fight over   

     Reply

263. “..The company who sacked me didn’t take me to court ..
     Monastras, If you had defamed your company, it would have a valid cause of action against you. Here, according to Turks, Armenians are accusing whole nation for a heinous crime who claim in fact there were Turks that were murdered by Armenians. If it is false accusation, then Turks can take Armenians to court for defamation. Now, if you cannot understand what I am talking about, then I cannot help you.

     Reply

264. Necati,

     Instead of cheking out maps on the internet, you should ckeck out Mongolians and find out about their looks and appearances.  Then you should ask yourself: How did the Turks, the descendants of asiatic Mongolians, turned out to look like ARmenians?

     re.  Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities.
     
     Necati, pay attention please.  The ARmenian scientist was trying to be not only academicaly correct but also ethicaly.  But if you want to be correct both academicaly and historicaly, then the only correct way of saying it is: Turks are geneticaly linked to ARmenians.  That will leave us with no unaswered qustions.  

     ARmenians look almost the same as we were in 10,000 BC  ;)

     ALSO,

     If you so like researching maps on the internet I will attach a link for your enlightenment.  Make sure you watch it all and again pay attention at the end to the oldest map that has been unearthed so far. (from 600 BC).  
     Oh yeah, also, ENJOY THE MUSIC Necati.

     http://youtu.be/Rws5YxPc16Y

       

     Reply

265. Necati,

     Instead of cheking out maps on the internet, you should ckeck out Mongolians and find out about their looks and appearances.  Then you should ask yourself: How did the Turks, the descendants of asiatic Mongolians, turned out to look like ARmenians?

     re.  Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities.
     
     Necati, pay attention please.  The ARmenian scientist was trying to be not only academicaly correct but also ethicaly.  But if you want to be correct both academicaly and historicaly, then the only correct way of saying it is: Turks are geneticaly linked to ARmenians.  That will leave us with no unaswered qustions.  

     ARmenians look almost the same as we in 10,000 BC  ;)

     ALSO,

     If you so like researching maps on the internet I will attach a link for your enlightenment.  Make sure you watch it all and again pay attention at the end to the oldest map that has been unearthed. (from 600 BC).  
     Oh yeah, also, ENJOY THE MUSIC Necati.

     http://youtu.be/Rws5YxPc16Y

     Reply

266. @Mark, No this issue of pursuing our rights to have the Turkish belligerent government to accept their wrongs of denying the Armenian Genocide and subsequently pay reparations to Armenians that it is due to them; it will never be over.  Armenians all over the world will see to it that our rights are paid in full.   Don’t you ever forget that.

     Reply

267. Boyajian,   there is an interesting discussion about the Treaty of Sèvres posted on Youtube, but it’s in Eastern Armenian. The discussants are Dr. Ashot Melkonian, Director of the History Department, National Academy of Sciences of Armenia and political analyst Ara Papian. Here’s the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePtr5_vrtlc&feature=related

     Reply

268. Papken: ‘…. If any one of you are interested to work on this project let me know.’
     Count me in. I’ll contribute time, effort, funds (…most of the available funds go to Armenia and Artsakh, but I can usually scrounge up some more for a good cause)
     I have asked Admin to give you my email.
      
     Gayane: ‘… I would love to get yours, Avery, Seervart, Gor e-mail..’
     I have asked Admin to give you my email.

     Reply

269. Avery jan-  I got it .. Thank you :)  I have asked mine to be given to you and Papken, Gor and Seervart as well..

     Good one AR.. Apres.. Yes Monastras loves to use the internet for his purposes.. like translating Armenian into English, looking up maps that he still can’t find… so not surprised that he is lost in the whole information technology world…lol thank you for providing the links……
     I would also love to have your e-mail as well…

     Astvats mer het…

     Gayane     

     Reply

270. Thank you Gor.  I will find someone to help me understand what I miss.

     Reply

271. Gor jan, Fortunately I understand Eastern Armenian as well and I am now listening to it.  Thank you very much for the info.

     Reply

272. Avery jan, Yes kezi e-mail ghergetsi ays yerego verevi Gayaneyi hartsov khentrem.

     Reply

273. Papken Hartunian,

     Count me in!

     GAYANE jan, you will have it shortly. 

     Reply

274. Gayane jan, Averyn kez gugharge shudov jan.

     Reply

275. Dears Gor and Boyajian,

     Here’s a link of the entire document of the “Treaty of Peace Between The Allied & Associated Powers and Turkey Signed at Sevres – August 10 , 1920
     Note: Includes Peace Treaty of Versailles 28 June, 1919.

     http://groong.usc.edu/treaties/sevres.html

     You’ll find more sites in here:

     Section I, Articles 1 – 260 – World War I Document Archive

     Section II, Annex II, and Articles 261 – 433 – World War I Document archive.

     Reply

276. Boyajian, Pay special attention of the Sevres Treaty Link of Articles 88 to 93 and also to Article 145. 

     It is noteworthy that although the Sevres Treaty hasn’t been legally imposed on Turkey, nevertheless all the trio major powers: England, France and Italy acknowledged the calamities that befell Armenians during 1915 and beyond by the turkish CUP and that’s why all three imposed onto the US and hence the Wilson Arbitration Award by President Woodraw Wilson was implemented, but unfortunately the Senate didn’t verify it.  However, the Turkish government accepted the borders of Armenia and Turkey of the Wilsonian Armenia at that time.  furthermore, until today the USA hasn’t and still does not accept Turkey’s borders as it stands today.  That is also a fact.

     Reply

277. “…no conventional weapons would break the will of the Turkish people,..

     Mark, remmber we are living in cyber age not in a conventional age. I promise you, one day when you open your laptop, it would blow up in your face following a message “I am an Armenian.”

        
       

     Reply

278. Boyajian jan.. if you don’t mind.. I would love to have your e-mail as well…

     Et dzevi menq bolorov karox enq irar het kapnvenq….

     AR jan- mersi.. looking forward to it..:)

     Gayane

     Reply

279. Raffi
     I appreciate your enthusiasm and your efforts. Good luck with your endeavor.  I think that the church, schools and property documentation has been done already. However,  one issue has not been documented; and here it is: As you know, for hundreds of years, the Armenians were not alowed to bear arms. So when the new constitution was approved, and the wwI started the Armenians were instructed to register for the draft and inducted into the Turkish armed forces. The Armenian male population joined  with enthusiasm. All the military age men were in uniform.  Then, the CUP was able to take over and orderred the disarming and murder of the Armenian men in the military. I am sure that the archives, pay records, training rosters, are all available. If you want to compile a list, consider composing one of all the patriotic Armenians that had enrolled in the Ottoman military, that were subsequently murdered by their officers. That should be about the whole of draft age Armenian male population.  This dastardly act  alone should be a source of shame to the Turkish military. As a veteran, I am outraged by this cowardly crime.

     Reply

280. gor, I apologize for mistakenly saying that you had said that “these things happen”. But you still fail to relate to the way ICTJ handled the question. If some people are invaders who came 500 years earlier is not relevant for the application of the Cenocide convention. Regarding subgroups, if the Bosniaks of Srebrenitsa and environs constitute part of a protected group, the Turks in bulgaria also does it. But I will not pester you with this if you are not interested.

     Reply

281. gayane
     necati is trying to be nice and you answer in the most negative way. What kind of manners do you have? just pouring out negative characterizations….

     Reply

282. Boyajian
     you suggested I should not focus on the quality of dialogue but insted talk about what to do to further justice. “Then lets take if from there” you said. I produced a long text. By the way I am wondering about the strategy of reclaiming churches. I now see that the main Armenian church in Diyarbakir/Dikranagert is being restored, but apparently not with Turkish money as was the case with Sourp Khatch. Do you know anything about it? Is the aim simply to restore churches or to have the Turkish government initiate a restoration campaign which they really should do?

     Reply

283. Monastras,from your given example what I understood is that yoiur ex-company = Turkey & you = Armenia/Armenian.I’m touched,you have grasped what it means to be a victim.

     Reply

284. Thanks Seervart and Gayane for your kindness.
      
     Ragnar, I see you offered an answer to my question.  You sure enjoy to argue!  You want Armenians to argue with Turks some more.   And you can be sure we will.   
      
     But as many here have tried to say to you before, Armenians feel insulted, irked at the suggestion that an historic fact has to be proven to the perpetrator nation.  It is admitting that Turks have succeeded at their game of diversion and denial and have turned a once known fact into a question.  It is more proof that evil abounds and dominates rather than goodness and fairness.  It is discouraging and we have a knee-jerk reaction against playing this denial game and giving credence to the unscrupulous liars.  And yet we do what we must, because we have no other choice.  But don’t expect to make friends with Armenians when we see you admiring this cheap Turkish carpet of lies and denial as if it even compares to the Armenian one woven of eye-witness accounts, Talaat’s and Ataturk’s own admissions, and internationally arbitrated determinations of guilt and punishment.  
      
     Your comment about the ‘cycle of violence’ is a odd.  It doesn’t support anything other than the idea that Turks were so bothered by losses in the Balkans that as a whole nation, they succumbed to mob mentality and savagely sought revenge upon innocent, unarmed people.  Usually it is the duty of government to prevent mob rule, but of course in this case, the government was the mob leader trying to win a ‘turf war.’  Is that what you meant, Ragnar?

     Reply

285. re:  ‘gayane
     necati is trying to be nice and you answer in the most negative way. What kind of manners do you have? just pouring out negative characterizations….’
      
     By your leave, Gayane, I’ll retort to this post by Mr. Naess, since I am a little more familiar with the poster Necati Genis.
      
     Mr. Genis deserves no consideration  from any Armenian poster here.
     Mr. Genis:
     Has  insulted (personal  attack)  the honorable  editor of ArmenianWeekly on these pages.
     Has libeled Ms. Nanore Barsoumian of AW by falsely accusing her of things she has not written.
     Posts Anti-Armenian comments @TodaysZaman, e.g. advocating invasion of Artsakh aka Nagorno-Karabagh.
      
     Posts derogatory comments against Armenians @TodaysZaman, e.g. [(Necati@J.L Bonham Oh well, he is an Armenian. need to say more ?)
     (J.L Bonham , 10 August 2011 , 00:13
     I find the article very interesting….Mr. Esayan seems to be making a case to move Turkey back toward a religious based governing system, ie a Kalif)] (In reference to TodaysZaman columnist Mr. Markar Esayan.)
      
     Deliberately cuts-and-pastes small portions of posts – mine in particular – here and @TodaysZaman to create a false image of posters, the aim being to paint Armenians as bigots, and stir up hatred towards Armenians.
     There is a long list of his transgressions, but this is sufficient for now.
      
     So before you guys lecture us on anything, do your homework.
     We don’t get nasty with people for no reason. We are usually very polite and accommodating.  
     But if you guys keep pushing us, we gonna push back. Hard.

     Reply

286. Ragnar, patience is a virtue.  We Armenians are developing quite an art out of it.   But we have an advantage by virtue of the fact that we are such an ancient civilization.
      
     Also please read all of Necati’s comments and you will understand why Gayane does not read kindness in his words.  Sarcasm, racism, Turkish ‘politeness’, maybe.  Experience is the best teacher, wouldn’t you agree? 

     Reply

287. I saw necati’s comment on Today’s Zaman & what a cry baby he is.If he cannot stand the heat he should not participate.Be a man necati & face the consequences of your rhetorics.

     Reply

288. Avery, we are on the same wavelength again, but of course you are more thorough than me. As usual!

     Reply

289. ragnar naess,   I’d agree that if some people are invaders who came 500 years ago is not relevant for the application of the Genocide convention. Historically, the Turks in Bulgaria were descendants of Turkic invaders who came from Mongolian steppes through Asia Minor across the narrows of the Dardanelles and the Bosporus following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the early 15th century. What you appear to be missing is whether this people were subjected to deliberate extermination as a group or they became victims of atrocities during a war. In other words, as per the 1948 Genocide convention, whether it was a “deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” You conveniently forget that atrocities against Bulgarian Turks were committed during the wars (Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 and Balkan Wars of 1912-1913) in which ethnic Turks were a warring side. As Russian forces and Bulgarian volunteers advanced in 1878 against the Ottoman Turks, they inflicted atrocities on the segments of local Turk population. Bear in mind that the Ottoman Turks have devastated Stara Zagora and the surrounding region, which provoked atrocities against ethnic Turks. The Ottoman army has also attacked Turk non-combatants and usied Turk refugees to shield their retreat. Even the infamous Justin McCarthy, who is known as having a pro-Turkish bias, admits that most of the ethnic Turks became victims of battle casualties and only then murders by Bulgarian and Russian troops. And, certainly, many Turks perished of hardship during their flight in war conditions. Balkan Wars of 1912-13, likewise, were wars during which the Balkan nations, Bulgarians included, carried out national liberation struggles against the Turks for the re-possession of the European territories of the Ottoman Empire that were invaded and colonized by the Turks. The wars resulted in war atrocities and the speedy expulsion of the Turks from occupied lands in Europe. Compare the atrocities against Turks who represented a warring side in the Russo-Turkish War and the Balkan Wars with the atrocities against Armenians who were not involved in any war, nor were anywhere near the war zones, and represented no warring side. In which instance, in your view, the “infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part” was deliberate and in which instance the infliction was not deliberate, i.e. war-related? Answer to this question will provide you with an understanding as to why the Genocide convention cannot be applied to Balkan Turks.

     Reply

290. Well said Gor jan.. Well said…

     Avery jan– thank you for replying to Ragnar..I will always be happy if you reply on behalf of me than someon like Karekin.. (sorry Karekin.. you yourself made yourself such)…Thank you for providing examples to demonstrate Necati’s just loving humility…(THE FRIENDLY and LOVING NECATI).. LOL I was laughing when I read Ragnar’s comment to me….

     Necati- i hope you get the point now.. Avery did a great job providing you examples.. maybe you are very bad reading between lines because Necati’s messages always have some sort of poison toward us ARmenians.. here are few other things he said.. maybe you can see the sarcasm in them.. or accordig to you.. he is trying to be genuine and nice… LOL funny indeed Ragnar.. I should suggest you be less funny and more real Ragnar…(took this line from you.. remember when you old me to be less Cheerleadry and more discussant?? Yeahh…

     1. Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)

     2. A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks

     3. You know, i like you Armenians very much ,no matter which hysteric feelings
     you have for us Turks. And i know you Hays also like Us Turks appearently
     because many of you visit Turkish news papers everday. NO? or is it a Stockholm syndome ?

     4.  Dont care all hatred here in AW.You will see there is no
     problem here in Turkey for Hays.. And you will find many Armenians naming “most
     of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest

     5. You never sleep ? Sleep is good for women.dont forget to sleep 8 hours a day

     These are JUST from these pages.. so please spare me Ragnar .. it is really cute that you are looking after your buddy but don’t baby him for the wrong reason.. i know he acts like a baby.. and you feel you have to act like his daddy.. hopefully the e-mail swap between you two happened maybe you can teach him how to communicate properly and with valid points vs with sarcasm, Anti-Armenian lingo, and just plain ” i am smarter than you people even with my primitative thinking” because if he does and if any one of you denialists do, as Avery said..we will push back and hard… hope you understand why i write the way i do now..  

     and to add extra bonus to the list of loving, caring, thoughtful that our Turkish posters love to indulge us is this from our own Monastras..

     Monastras
     Comment:
     Gayane,

     Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?

     We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal. 

      
     
     

          

     Reply

291. VTiger jan- you said it right.. I also read Necati’s comments on Turkish sites.. and they ain’t loving and nice … but then Ragnar does not know this much because he only visits our sites…right Ragnar?????

     Gayane

     Reply

292. Turkish war planes , tonight again,started  bombing  PKK camps in  Northern  Iraq..

     Reply

293. Necatik  —-Is there anything else that Turkey can do, except for bombing and mass murdering other nations?

     Reply

294. necati the cry baby,my innocent massacred forefathers spirits in heaven are smiling.Their curses before being butchered are coming true.

     Reply

295. My apologies– want to correct a name error.. In my above comment where i provided examples of Necati’s niceness, I meant to put Ragnar (addressing it to Ragnar and not Necati).. As Necati already knows what he said…

     Karo jan– exellent question…

     Gayane
      

     Reply

296. this time  with the support of long range artillary in Turkish side of Border..No sleep for PKK terrorists tonight…same as last…OMG..so noisy!

     Reply

297. Typical Turkish (mis)behaviour: PKK guerillas kill Turk troops in uniform who are out in the field hunting  for them (Kurds), and Turks respond by mass-bombing quote ‘PKK Camps’. If  Turks know where the PKK camps are, why don’t they helicopter-in special forces troops and do battle with PKK guerrillas right there ?
      
      
     The answer is they don’t know where PKK camps are. They are just blindly bombing areas where Kurds generally  live and probably just killing Kurd civilians. They’ll later claim they killed X number of ‘PKK terrorists’. They  will also claim the retaliation was total success. Same song and dance they’ve been doing for 30 years.
      
      
     On a side note: an interesting item not discussed widely. As the Hurriyet reported, the Turks that  were killed were special forces troops – the best of the best in any army. Here is the quote from Hurriyet: [“The soldiers were killed as a result of four mine explosions targeting special forces teams at two different points along the Hakkari-Çukurca road, the Hakkari Governor’s Office said in a statement. The attack also wounded 15 soldiers.”]
      
      
      I don’t know what kind of  troops were the previous 13 that were ambushed killed in battle with PKK a couple of weeks ago.
     The interesting item is that PKK had accurate intelligence that these guys (SF troops) were coming, they had intelligence which route they would most likely take, so they laid anti-personnel mines right there and set up a classic ambush. Maybe my prediction that long knives would come out is happening sooner than I expected.
      
      
     So who are the long-knives ? It is highly unlikely that Kurds would have been able to penetrate Turkish military command, so the intel must have come from people who have the ability to penetrate Turkish MIT and/or military leadership – most likely Israel/Mossad. Could also be US NSA sigint passed to PKK via Israel. US and Israel are not happy at all with ascendant Islamism in Turkey and particularly Islamist AKP Party’s massive popularity in Turkey.
      
      
     Things are getting “Curiouser and curiouser”, said Alice in the Wonderland.

     Reply

298. be my friend, i can die for you
     be my enemy, get ready to die

     Reply

299. LOL Avery- Loved it…

     Necati- when you send links, be so smart enough to send it in english.. not a big fan of Turkish media nor i understand the language.. so f you to send a message, do it in a way that everyone can understand .. if not, then don’t waste our pages with nonsense links…

     Thank you
     Gayane     

     Reply

300. Avery, You are right.  Israel and probably the US don’t particularly like the Islamist regime in turkey.  I think they prefer the Kemalist regime much more.  Let’s see what’s going to happen.

     Reply

301. VTiger, Btw, I like your name.  What you justly said above about our martyrs’ spirits stands true.

     You know, when Krikor Zohrab was taken into the interior of turkey to be butchered in 1915, he knew about his fate, then he told the gendarme who was assigned to kill him that if he kills him, after his death “Krikor Zohrab’s” spirit won’t leave him alone.  Indeed after Zohrab was butchered, the mighty Krikor Zohrab’s spirit haunted that turkish gendarme until his death and he died soon after he has killed Krikor Zohrab.

     Reply

302. Turks used Kurds in murdering Armenians. Now, Turks cannot murder Armenian anymore. They are murdering Kurds. This is a partial justice. Islam, Kurds and Armenians are going to tear Turkey apart. When Western Armenia is liberated and Republic of Kurdistan has established, Turks might have peace in the region.

     Reply

303. FRIENDS, please use the word “murder,” instead  of “kill”, when you are talking about our martyrs destinies. Because, some killings could be justified, for example self-defense. Thank you.

     Reply

304. And all this, is happening in the holy month of ramadan.
     Those lands are haunted with the spirits of my butchered unburied forefathers & they will remain haunted until the day of reckoning.

     Reply

305. Ragnar, regarding the reclaiming of Christian churches, I know only what I read in our papers.  But after the ‘museumization’ of Sourp Khatch, do you really wonder that those in charge of the restoration of the church in Dikrangerd would prefer to find private funding for this project. 

     Reply

306. boyajian
     Yes, the Sourp Khatch seems to have been envisaged as a compromise by the Turkish government, in order to meet critique that the Armenian heritage is not taken care of and at the same time giving it status as a museum, because this is how the TC government sees it, and to appease their own anti-armenians nationalists. After the criticism from many quarters a religious ceremony – one day – was allowed, and after still more debate a cross was reinstated in the church. Taken as an attempt to make good the confiscation and neglect of Armenian churches, what the TC government hasd done is meagre indeed, and I can very well understand Armenians that prefer to make a similar restoration of the church in Dikranagert/Diyarbakir a private enterprise. However, the Sourp Khatch may be a beginning. But the drawback of a private project is that the moral and pecuniary debt of the Turkish government is not adressed. The aim should be to have the Turkish government finance the restoration of Armenian churches and then hand them over to the Armenian community. — In Bosnia the international community rebuilt houses on a grand scale in muslim areas in respublika srpska (the serbian part of bosnia), in order to honour the memory of the muslims killed in the genocidal Serb campaign. This area was also the site of some of the most widespread Serb campaigns to rape Bosniak women to have them bear “serb” children. Actually very few Bosniaks have returned to these houses –  the memories seem to be too traumatic and they still fear the Serb neighbours – I saw this area  when I was engaged in a project on the situation of children returning to Bosnia after having spent several years in Europa in families who applied for asylum. It was a very uncanny sight, lots of nice houses completely derserted, with bushes and high grass growing around them in a wilderness, but still a monument to preserve memory about the atrocities committed. – So even if the Armenians in Diyarbakir only count a handful people today – if any at all, an official restoration of the church would be a monument to the remembrance of the near total extermination of the Armenians in the city in late may 1915, as this is described in the books of Ugur Ungor and Maurice Kevorkian, to a great extent based on the writings of Tomas Mgrditchian, employed in the British consulate at the time. He escaped to Egypt. – As you maybe remember I wrote more than one year ago, I organized a course in English for human rights activists in Diyarbakir, and I brought up the fate of the Armenians to the Kurds participating in the course. “Yes, we know they were mistreated!” one of them said and all looked down, but they were very unwilling to pursue the theme. So it makes sense to my mind to ask the Turkish government to finance a restoration and then hand the restored church over to the Armenian patriarch in Istanbul which I believe is the demand regarding Sourp Khatch.
        
           

     Reply

307. Ragnar, you and I have changed roles.  Now you are the dreamer.  Of course Turkey should pay to restore and return countless churches and other institutions to the Armenian nation, even if only to serve as a monument to what was taken, what was lost.  Setting the historical record straight is the ideal many hope for.   The Sourp Giragos church in Dikranagerd will do the same through its reconstruction and will also serve as an example of what can be accomplished through Kurdish and Armenian cooperation. 

     Reply

308. “So it makes sense to my mind to ask the Turkish government to finance a restoration and then hand the restored church over to the Armenian patriarch in Istanbul…”
      
     Armenians don’t have to ask anything, ragnar naess, this is another blunder of yours. Turkish government has assumed an obligation to provide care for all Christian monuments, structures, cemeteries, and edifices according to the provisions of both the Sevres and Lausanne treaties. As you might have witnessed, Turks don’t spare efforts to provide care for Christian structures. Out of 3000 Armenians churches and monasteries only several exist, and mostly in Constantinople. Scores of churches and monasteries have been desecrated, destructed, used as tank targets during military maneuvers, transformed to ‘museums’, mosques, sheepcots or barn toilets. And you suggest asking Turks to restore anything? They will only do something good for non-Turks if (1)they’re compelled to or (2)as a buffoonery staged for Europe to show off what religiously ‘tolerant’  the Turkish nation is. They are Turks, ragnar, we know them well…

     Reply

309. gor
     you say:
     Armenians don’t have to ask anything, ragnar naess, this is another blunder of yours. Turkish government has assumed an obligation to provide care for all Christian monuments, structures, cemeteries, and edifices according to the provisions of both the Sevres and Lausanne treaties.
      comment: the world of signed treaties is not the same as the world of practical politics, Gor! This is another examples of your lack of understanding of the world you live in. We are talking about politics. The theme launched by Boyajian was how to work towards justice given the world we actually live in. How can we influence the Turks, if at all? Is it right of the ARF not to put so much emphasis on the recognition of genocide, but focus on preserving the Armenian cultural heritage in Turkey? These are natural and inevitable questions. To repeat the text of sevre and lausanne will not help. The question is what we can do. If nothing then drop the theme  

     Reply

310. gor
     thank you for your admission that the distinction between invaders and indigenous people s not essential for the Convention. By the way, the Bulgarians were also to a certain extent descendants of Turkic tribes from the East. Regarding the turks of Bulgaria in 1877-78, they were to a large extent driven out of their villages by attacks from Cossacks and Bulgarian bands, after part of the inhabitants were massacred. This is what McCarthy relates. They were civilians, not soldiers. By being sent on the road in the autumn and winter they were clearly put in life endangering situations. 250.000 died. They were targeted as such. The intention was evidently to bring about a large mortalityand to prevent their return to reclaim their rights. They were a subgroup like the Bosniaks of Srebrenica and environs. “the most reasonable conclusion is that the perpetrators were aware of the effects of their actions and that some of them strove towards this result”. This is more or less what ICTJ says regarding “the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia”.  substitute “Turks in bulgaria” for “Armenian of eastern anatolia” and keep the wording of ICTJ identical. Yes, according to this reasoning both were genocides. This is my opinion, but of course I may be wrong.

     Reply

311. Boyajian
     it is interesting that you say I am a dreamer and that you were the dreamer before. Have you changed your attitude and beliefs lately? 

     Reply

312. gayane
     you say that GENOCIDE IS GENOCIDE and that the point that words can have different meanings does not apply to the word genocide. It is the first time I have heard this argument. are you sure of this? If this is so why do both jurists and genocide researchers bother so much with definitions? 

     Reply

313. monastras
     I have not heard from you for a while. Possibly you are not comfortable with the style of the discussions. Then I have to say that I have also been very uncomfortable with discussions. But I guess that you are here because you believe that something must be done to adress the relationsship between Armenians and Turks. I can only guess at the resons for your belief, but I guess that you – like many Turks, and immeasurably more today that 20 years ago – realize that Turks must answer the accusations from Armenians and also from an important  part of the world’s historians and representative bodies. I dont know your reactions to the debates, but I imagine that you feel it hard to encounter something  that has to do not only with being contradicted, but also being ridiculed and verbally attacked. This is very much the reaction I myself had from 2007 and onwards when I started to engage in debates with Armenians. I was feeling hurt, I was wondering if there was something wrong with me, I was disgusted with the debate which did not correspond to standards that I was used to. But I realized that there is no way except dialogue. And one must have faith in dialogue, especially when it seems not to lead anywhere. I have learned a lot about how the memory of the genocide stays with Armenians, something I knew intellectually from before, but something that gets much more pointed and clear if you actually argue with people. So I ask you to join the debate again, and not leave us  

     Reply

314. mjm, you posted a thought provoking thought-experiment on ‘intent’ using Breivik’s actions as a case study (…don’t recall the thread).

     Did Norwegians debate it adequately in a sober and detached manner, or is  the event too traumatic and personal  for them to be discussed and debated in a clinically detached manner ?

     Please give us an update if you would. Thank you. 

     Reply

315. No.

     Reply

316. I perfectly understand that the world of signed treaties is not the same as the world of practical politics, ragnar naess. What I also seem to understand, in contrast to you, that signed treaties are a part of the world of Realpolitik. My comment targeted the embarrassing wording you used re: asking the Turkish government to finance a restoration. How lovely! First Turks destroy, desecrate, transform Armenian religious sites to ‘museums’, mosques, sheepcots, and barn toilets, and then Armenians are required to ask the same destructive Turks to restore them. Why is it that most of your comments are directed at Armenians, not at condemning the uncivilized Turkish behavior?

     Reply

317. You are wrong, ragnar naess.  As is notorious genocide denier, Turkish henchman McCarthy.  In my comment about Turks in Bulgaria I gave you a perfect reasoning as to why substituting “Turks in Bulgaria” for “Armenians of Eastern Anatolia” will not be appropriate for the application of the identical wording of ICTJ. You conveniently avoided my focal point: ethnic Turks (Ottoman or Bulgarian notwithstanding) represented one of the warring sides in 1877-78 and in 1912-13, thus they suffered atrocities. Armenians did not represent a warring side but suffered genocidal extermination, regardless. During any war civilians suffer, but their sufferings, in most cases, do not normally fall under the category of premeditated genocide. As a result of atrocities against Bulgarian Turks during the wars they were expelled from lands they earlier occupied. Armenians were forcibly deported from their ancestral lands. There are many peculiarities, but one indeed needs to be an unbiased observer to understand them. You, clearly, don’t seem to be one.

     Reply

318. Ragnar

     I am not leaving AW. Some discussions may be fruitless but I will keep trying to present my view and learn from others. The problem with Armenian weekly is they do not post my comments very often as they find them the propaganda of Turks. Verbal attack or being ridiculed is okay as long as I can present my view. I  asked a clear question to the readers but haven’t received a proper answer.What is your opinion about my question?
     By the way, Turks aren’t scared of the Armenian claims. they can also face their history without any problem. The same must be done by Armenians by not pretending nothing was done on their side. If we believe them, Their grandparents were all angels. They didn’t revolt but the Turks misunderstood them delibrately.

     Reply

319. Furthermore, ragnar naess.
     
     “’The most reasonable conclusion is that the perpetrators were aware of the effects of their actions [against Bulgarian Turks] and that some of them strove towards this result’. This is more or less what ICTJ says regarding ‘the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia’”.
      
     ICTJ Report states, in particular, that the crime of genocide has four elements: (1) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (2) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; (3) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (4) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction. ICTJ established that three of the elements listed above were instantaneously met: (1) one or more persons were killed; (2) such persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; and (4) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group. As for (3), ICTJ established that the most reasonable conclusion to draw of the events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent. Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention.
      
     Out of four elements mentioned above, the atrocities against the Turks of Bulgaria, in my view, do not meet three, namely: (1), (3), and (4).
      
     Re: (1). Russian army and Bulgarian freedom-fighters were not perpetrators per se; together with the Turks they represented one of the warring sides. Neither side involved in a military action at a formally proclaimed war can be perceived as perpetrator. Again, Russians won a decisive victory at Stalingrad in 1942 destroying a great number of Nazi Germans. Can it be said that Russians were, actually, perpetrators of the atrocities?
      
     Re: (3). It can’t be said that Russian army and Bulgarian freedom-fighters intended to destroy, in whole or in part, Bulgarian Turks as a group. Even your BFF Justin McCarthy, with whom I had a revulsion watching you at a University of Utah discussion, admitted that ethnic Turks became victims of battle casualties more than murders by Bulgarian units and Russian troops [“Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922”, pp.66-67]. The Ottoman army has also attacked Bulgarian Turk non-combatants and used Bulgarian Turk civilians to shield their retreat. Did Turks intended to destroy their own ethnic group?
      
     Re: (4). The conduct of Russian army and Bulgarian liberators didn’t take place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against the Bulgarian Turks. The only major instances of their encounter with the Turks were wars, and not a pattern of destruction. The manifest pattern of a destructive conduct refers to the Turks because they were the oppressor group during the Ottoman centuries, not the Bulgarians, or the Armenians, or the Serbs, or the Albanians, or the Romanians, or the Arabs, or the Greeks, for that matter. In the case of the Armenians, there clearly was a manifest pattern of similar conduct: the 1894-1896 massacres of Armenians under the Bloody Assassin Abdulhamid II—the 1909 massacres of Armenians in Adana—the 1915-1923 genocide of Armenians in the Ottoman empire.

     Reply

320. Monastras, sorry that you feel mistreated by the moderators.
     As to your comment above:  Armenians did revolt!  Rightfully!  But it was a minority of the population.  We face this squarely.   Are you suggesting that the great majority of an ancient nation consisting of primarily innocent elderly, women and children deserved genocide because of the actions of those who fought for freedom?  I must not understand you correctly.

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321. Monastras:     —-If Turks aren’t scared of Armenian claims and can face their history without problem, then why won’t they accept their forefathers’ guilt in history? Amused at “the same must be done by Armenians by not pretending nothing was done on their side.” Exactly what was done on Armenians’ side, please? All of the Turkish population of Asia Minor was savagely slaughtered by Armenians or Turkish homeland in the Altay mountains was stolen from them? Also, would be glad to enlighten myself as to what “revolt” of Armenians led to misunderstanding by poor Turks? Don’t forget to add, as to, if there was a “revolt”, why the group of a few revolutionaries was not brought to custody, but millions of innocent men, women, elders, children, and even the unborn ripped off their mothers’ wombs, were barbarously slaughtered by the Turks?  Curiously,  K.

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322. ‘I  asked a clear question to the readers but haven’t received a proper answer.’

     We also asked a clear question and have not received an answer – proper or improper.
     We’ll ask again:

     {Avery August 16, 2011 
     Monastras:  I will ask you a simple question one more time: do you or do you not stand by this post of yours
     [Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust] (posted   @Hurriyet) 
     Yes or No ? }

     And yes Mr. Ragnar, when you render an opinion re Monastras’s question ‘What is your opinion about my question?’, you might consider rendering an opinion about our question also.
      

     Reply

323. Monastras, It is an insult to our 2 Million martyrs’ annihilation by the hands of the CUP of the then the Turkish gov’t of 1915 to say that it is a fabrication.  HOW DARE YOU!  You Monastras.

     Reply

324. What nonsense!!! Apparently the poster is dumber than Hitler. Hundreds of stories out of hundreds of villages and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth could concoct those tragic stories? Was it a genocide? It deosn’t even deserve an answer.

     Reply

325. Boyajian,
     Revolutionaries are always the minorities of the societies compare to the rest of the population. This isn’t valid only in the Armenian case but all the similar cases. But they can cause havoc. The support for the Russian enemy was widespread among the Armenians. Nearly, 20,000 Armenians crossed the Russian border and formed voluntary units (This is from the Armenian sources). Moreover, The Armenian insurgency also caused problems for the Government such as cutting the supplies line, telegraph lines of the army, raiding the Turkish villages etc. Imagine, having the MP’s of the Ottoman parliament as the commander of the voluntary Armenian units made the matter worse in the eyes of the Turks. The Armenians actually captured the city of Van and handed over to the Russian Army. Turks were also fighting in many fronts at that time. The Armenian leaders were warned many times by the CUP but warnings fell on deaf ears. This issue has been contaminated by the distorted books, nationalist approach etc. For example, I read an article of Murat Bardakci, an Ottoman Historian/Journalist in the daily Haberturk, He was furious with Ara Sarafian, Talat Pasha’s wife had given him the memoirs of Talat Pasha in the past and he published this in Turkish recently. According to him, Ara Sarafian distorted so many things as he likes and published this in English as the Talat Pasha’s confession. His lawyer(I think in England) made this issue a court case. But what you will read when you buy this book is Talat Pasha’s confession of the genocide.

     With regards to   innocent elderly, women and children deserved genocide because of the actions of those who fought for freedom? Nobody deserves such a treatment. I guess, it wouldn’t be wise to separate families. We cannot also rule that the CUP leaders were the perfect decision makers. If it was today, nobody would die on the road as there is no bus without air-conditioning. They also hardly thought about their own soldiers. They even didn’t bring back the soldiers fought in Yemen after the war I know  one of them is my close relative. He had to walk on his own all the way from Yemen to Mersin. Bear in mind, we are judging something with today’s logic that happened a century ago. During the deportations, Armenians were able to buy train tickets in the Adana region and travelled by train. The deportation was carried out depending on the local facilities and the actions of the local administration. There is no evidence discovered so far to suggest that this was a premeditated action of the government. Their action was reactionary rather than premeditated. If a new genuine evidence is discovered tomorrow that it was premeditated . I am sure Turkey will say. We are very sorry that we thought that this wasn’t a premeditated action but it turned out other way around. We deeply share the great pain of the Armenians.

     I am sure Armenians will say that they resisted in Van against the deportation or heavy taxation elsewhere or the revolutionaries were only a handful  people why on earth they did this to us?  My argument is if all the evidences suggest that it was a genocide , Armenians must have taken this issue to the International Court of Justice long time ago. You will have the best lawyers to present your case. You will have the opportunity to tell the calamity that befell on you in front of the world audience.  Imagine, you have a very strong and a solid case but stay away from the court and say Turkey should apply to the court and make some other stupid comments like Armenians blame the whole Turkish nation etc. Who is going to benefit from the verdict? Armenians, who is complaining about the denialist policy of Turkey? Armenians, who is going to stop the distortion and the twisted fact of the Turks? Armenians. If you aren’t doing this then please do not complain if somebody says exactly the opposite. I know you have an emotional investment in this Boyajian, but I am sorry emotional investments cannot be counted in the legal case. 
     Another subject,
     Imagine; you Armenians can go back to the beginning of the century and nothing happened, no deportation, no revolution. What would have been the picture of the Armenian community as of today?  Would you prefer to coexist with the conservative and extreme nationalist Turks in the harsh environment in the eastern Turkey or live in the USA or elsewhere? 

     Reply

326. gor
     thank you for your post on the ICTJ and the Turks in Bulgaria. Now I am not a jurist, but I sketched my following reasoning to Morten Bergsmo, who works as a UN specialist on these matters, at a seminar some years ago, and he said that my reasoning was interesting and that I should follow it up. – I disagree with you for several reasons. First, the Turks killed and driven out were civilians, men women, children, sick, old, they were not warring parties. Civilians are not part of the “warring parties”. As far as I know the laws of war make a point that civilians should not be targeted if it is possible to avoid it. So also your mentioning of German soldiers (not “Nazis”) killed after the debacle of Stalingrad is irrelevant 1) because they do not constitute a”protected group” according to the Convention and 2) because they were soldiers.It was matter of how to treat prisoners in war- And the pattern described by McCarthy, and confirmed by an overwhelming evidence including protests from a great number of Western journalists at the time, was a pattern of targeting ethnic Turks – and also jews by the way – as such.  Further: the word “Freedom fighter” is not a juridical term and irrelevant in this context.The question is if there was an intent on the part of Russians, Cossacks and Bulgarian bands which can be covered by the wording of the ICTJ when it deals with the Armenian case. –Further, the number of Turks murdered is not the only relevant point here. Murdering people (killing people) is only one of the acts described by the Convention. One of the acts described in the Convention is DELIBERATELY INFLICTING ON THE GROUP CONDITIONS OF LIFE CALCULATED TO BRING ABOUT  ITS PHYSICAL DESTRUCTION IN WHOLE OR IN PART. In the ICTJ text this is hinted at by the words “…the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction(my emphasis)”.  By killing some Turkish other Turks were induced to flee in panic for their lives, and in these conditions (no food, winter conditions) this meant putting them in a life threatening condition. The mortality was very high, and a considerable part of the Turks of Bulgaria died. the carefully expressed conclusion of the ICTJ is as yoiu say:”….that the most reasonable conclusion to draw of the events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.” Unquote. Given the reasoning of ICTJ I find it very difficult to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria were subjected to genocide. But of course I may be wrong. From your arguments I see points that I have not been thinking of.  However, I am surprised that you indirectly describe women, children and old people as representatives of the “warring parties”.
      
      
       
      
      
      

      

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327. Monastras, Although it has been said in here on AW columns numerous times, but apparently you didn’t make an attempt to read them nor read hundreds and more of the books about the Armenian Genocide and about the vast Armenian population in the Republic of Turkey on or before 1915 and what truly transpired.  The Armenian freedom fighters were trying to protect the Armenian unarmed population since the Hamidian massacres of 1895-1896 when Abdul Hamid had 300 thousand Armenian unarmed civilians murdered on the Armenian Highlands that was at the time and till today it is called Eastern Turkey.  The Armenian population ever since the Seljuk Turks came from the Mongolian steppes of the Altay mountain to the Armenian Highlands, were never left alone in peace as they were constantly being murdered and barbarically butchered just because they were Christian Armenians living in their own anscestral homeland over 5000 years that was their own homeland.  They were living in sheer fear even though they were constant workers, inventors, builders, scientists, educators, lawyers, and tradesmen.  The A.R.F. organization that created their freedom fighters stemmed from within the heart of the Armenian people who wanted to protect the unarmed civilian Armenian population from constant attacks, murders, rapes, kidnapping, persecution, theft of property & belongings, etc. etc. by both the Turkish gendarmes and the Turkish people.  They never had peace.  Not to mention under the Turkish yoke Armenians were also taxed three times more than the Turkish population.   The Armenians were 2 1/2 – 3 Million population in 1915.  The A.R.F. Freedom Fighters were only a few trying to protect the population here and there whenever the majority unarmed people were murdered in thousands, such as in Van area and other places too in the Eastern Turkey towns and cities.  Then in 1908 a new gov’t came to the throne of Turkey in the name of the Ittihadist CUPs claiming that they were progressive government and things were going to get better in the country as well as for the Armenians.  the ARF Organization in desperation after the Hamidian massacres of their people wished to believe in them and for a very short while they even collaborated with the newly formed Ittihadist CUPs until 1909 when the CUPs deceived them and murdered 30,000 Adana’s unarmed civilian Armenian population as they premeditated the murder of the Armenian nation to finish the bloody murders of Abdul Hamid and to put the final nails on the coffins of 2 million Armenians by first murdering the 250 unarmed civilian intellegentsia, then they had all the Armenian unarmed civilian males in the country murdered.  Then after that they had the unarmed civilian women and children walk the death marches down to Mesopotamian deserts all while the CUP gov’t. freed the convicted murderers from their jails to go and attack those poor women and children that were walking by foot in the name of relocation but without food and without water, and all the while they were constantly being attacked by the criminals, by the local Kurds and Turks; only in the end to be throw in Der-El-Zor, a huge ditch called Saaddin in the deserts of Syria to burn them in a blazing fire after throwing them in that huge ditch.  Whoever survived after that, they only survived by a miracle.  Out of 3 Million Armenians in 1915-1923 only 700 thousand orphaned children and few women survived.  Thus in the Diaspora today scattered all around the world, we are the remnants of the martyred 2 Million Armenians who were murdered premeditatedly by the Ittihadist CUP government of Turkey from 1915 through 1923 which is called the Armenian Genocide that until today the Turkish government does not want to accept it and they are denying it for 96 years living in a lye and plus lying to their population and paying millions of dollars to governments all around the world, especially to the US gov’t. senators and congressmen to lie about it and they are driving an enormous campaign all around the world to scare government officials to not accept the Armenian Genocide.  Thus the Armenian Genocide is still ongoing because of the Turkish govenrment’s denials until today.   

     Reply

328. Most genocides, like the Armenian genocide, have an underlying economic component, which many scholars have shown, overrides most other variables, like race, ethnicity or religion. The Ottoman Empire, fighting several wars of choice on several fronts, was bankrupt and using its minority citizens to finance its adventures and its support of Germany. When the Armenians refused to cooperate further by withholding tax payments, they were deemed as ‘traitors and revolutionaries’, even though they had warned the CUP not to enter into the war at all. Let’s not forget, the minorities were the bank account for the empire…all the wealth amassed by the empire came from the toil of the millet peoples, not from the ruling class. So, yes, the Armenians reacted in self-defense….some may call this a ‘revolt’, but in light of what was happening to them across the empire, on their own land by the way….they were fully justified in trying to secure their towns and villages from endless raids and pillaging by the authorities. When the Armenians refused to cooperate, they were accused of treason, rounded up and murdered or expelled. Their properties and businesses were later handed over to those who were close associates of the CUP. Their stolen gold and bank accounts were transferred to the Bank of England, where it remains. When backed into a corner, rats will fight like rats and eat each others’ heads off….the CUP ate its own citizens in an effort to stay afloat, and just like Hitler, they went down the drain as genocidal murderers and thieves.  This is established history….not a fantasy invented by Armenians, who by the way, never had an army, a tank or a battalion, as did the empire. To accuse them of such is like accusing a mosquito of threatening an elephant. 

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329. monastras
     there have been people here in AW who have been complaining of being  censored by the AW staff. There has been at least one case where an Armenian has complained of this, it does not only happen to Turks. If I were you I would send a letter to the editor with the post that was rejected, and ask for an explanation.
     Then you write: By the way, Turks aren’t scared of the Armenian claims. they can also face their history without any problem. Unquote.
     I have read quite a number of books and booklets in which Turkish historians have commented on the accusations regarding the Armenian fate in 1915-16. Here in Norway many of these are sent out by the Turkish Embassy. But – according to my reading – these contributions cannot be said really to go into the question. One thing is to disagree, but the Turkish contributions as a rule do not refer to the more specific points of the genocide scholars and Armenian scholars. they dont refer the arguments, but only repeat assertions known from Turkish conservatives. This looks to me like unwillingness to face the past. I am not talking about you, but about the general Turkish reaction. To take one example, the Turkish author  Enver Zia Karal describes the collection of materials “The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”, published in 1916 as “onesided British propaganda” and “not worth dwelling upon” (Sarafian, Ara: The archival trail” in Hovannisian (ed)(1999):  remembrance and denial. The case of the Armenian genocide. Wayne state University press, p. 52). While it is true that the book was published for propaganda purposes, the majority of the contributors were resident foreigners, many of whom also published their experiences after WW1. While they hardly were in a position to know about the intents and decisions of the Ittihadist government, they saw the facts on the ground, and I cannot conclude anything other than this is a sourcebook which gives a very good, and gruesome, picture of the deportations and killing of Armenians.   So the description by Karal is misleading and seems to show an unwillingness to go into the question of what happened to the Armenians. The words “not worth dwelling upon” sounds to me as unwillingness. A more recent contribution, that of Haluk Selvi of Sakarya University (2007) is better in that the assertions of genocide scholars are much more throughly referred to, but when he starts providing his own ideas, he does not refer to the literature he initially presented. He gives what for many years was the standard official Turkish version.
      

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330. Monastras, How could 700 half dead, half alive skeletons and orphaned hungry children who miraculously escaped from blazing fires, swords and guns from the Turkish gendarmes be able to go to the international courts to claim their rights of their race being murdered?  They were hungry orphaned children and some skeleton of women that the American orphanages took them in and also thanks to the Syrian gov’t. who saved them as well as Greece who opened their doors to the Armenian survivors.  Talaat Pasha of the CUP admitted himself that the Armenians after being murdered en masse about 2 million of them; will not be able to raise their heads to even compalin about it.  Talaat said that it will take the Armenians 50 years to be able to start talking about it, complain and be able to try to claim their rights.  Yes Talaat Pasha of the Ittihadist CUPs who was the mastermind of the Armenian Genocide said the above statement.  And it did come true, the newer generation Armenians who’s parents were the orphaned children that miraculously survived the Armenian Genocide started commemorating and speaking about it exactly after 50 years in 1965.  For your information there has been international historians working on the veracity of the Armenian Genocide for 30 years.  The Armenian Genocide that was premeditated by the 1915 Ittihadist CUP government of the Turkish Republic cannot be disputed.  As Hitler said on or about 1939 before annihilating the Jews in Europe, he said, “let us annihilate the Jews, because today who remembers the Armenian Genocide?”

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331. Monastras, do you really need proof of ‘premeditation’ before you can offer an apology and “deeply share in the great pain of the Armenian people.”  Where is your humanity?    An ancient nation is virtually wiped from its historical homeland, leaving villages, churches, shops, homes to the looters,  thousands of orphans in the Syrian desert and scattering survivors across the globe and you need to see the smoking gun before you can feel basic human compassion! 
      
     I will never understand Turks like you.  Your great-grandparents probably witnessed these ‘deportations’ and may have even wept as they saw the pitiable caravans of starving Christians being driven through the streets.  They may even have convinced themselves that the government was doing what it had to do for the good of the empire.  But when the war ended and the dust settled and they did not see their former neighbors returning to their homes to claim their belongings, didn’t they know what happened?  Didn’t they lament the loss of the baker, the banker, the tailor, the teacher and ask themselves how did we let this happen? 
      
     You and I disagree on premeditation, but can’t we agree on the tragedy?  Do you really deny that the actions of the government directly led to this tragedy?  Do you not understand what price was paid for you to claim Turkish pride today?  Do you not see the blood that was shed so that a blue-eyed savior could lead your people to a new and modern Turkey for all Turks?  Why do we need courts and commissions for Turks to acknowledge the Armenian loss and simply say sorry? 
      
     You have been denied the full truth by your own government and greed and desire for power is standing in the way of doing what is right.

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332. ragnar naess,   I’m not a jurist, either, but our reading into the same provisions of the relevant juridical documents, obviously, differ. I may say it is because of your pro-Turkish tilt, you may say it is because of my ethnic affinity. The fact, which I hope you’ll have wisdom not to dispute, is that the ICTJ resolution dealt with the genocide of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, not the genocide of Turks in Bulgaria. The fact is that the 1948 Genocide Convention was based on Lemkin’s study and invention of the term ‘genocide’ based on the race annihilation of the Armenians, not the Bulgarian Turks.
      
     Now, I didn’t say “civilians were part of the warring parties”. I said ethnically Bulgarian Turks represented one of the warring parties: the Ottoman Turks. And, unfortunately, even though the laws of war make a point that civilians shouldn’t be targeted, Bulgarian Turks were targeted in an ongoing war because ethnically they represented a warring side, the Turks. I brought this argument for you to make a distinction between an ethnic group that was at war with the other(s) and an ethnic group (Armenians) that was not at war with anyone, but was slaughtered en masse regardless and on a grand scale and level of barbarity.
      
     About the “protected group” that you keep repeating. Do please refer me to an excerpt where the “protected group” is mentioned in the Convention in the context that you’re referring to. If you think the Stalingrad paradigm is irrelevant, I can provide you with hundreds of facts of atrocities against the civilian German population when the Red Army entered Germany. But Russians will laugh in your face if you dare to tell them that “the laws of war make a point that civilians should not be targeted.” Most probably Russians will say: ‘Germans killed innocent Russian civilians in the first place, and we retaliated by doing the same to the German civilians.’
      
     I didn’t put “freedom fighter” in a juridical context. By using the correct denomination for the Bulgarian paramilitaries (freedom-fighters, liberators, etc., and not ‘bands’), I tried to demonstrate to you that these people were fighting for a just cause, however non-juridical it may sound: liberation of their lands from Turkic invaders and colonizers. You sound like saying: some uncivilized nomads invaded my dwelling, kept its inhabitants at awe by constantly massacring, raping, and humiliating them, made the legitimate home-owners their slaves for centuries, but now when the suitable moment came the home-owners must refrain from liberating their home because in a juridical context it will mean inflicting pain on the invaders. Does this make sense?
      
     Because there were wars in which the oppressed rose against the oppressors, I don’t think it was the deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part in the sense that the Convention implies. Atrocities were committed against the Turks as were they committed by the Turks against Bulgarians, Russians, and even their own civilian Turks. Compare the war situation in the Balkans with a no-war situation in Eastern Anatolia, and you’ll most likely come to no other conclusion that these two situations in terms of a deliberate infliction are incomparable.
      
     I categorically disagree with the application of the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction to the Bulgarian Turks’ case. Fleeing in panic for their lives, no food, winter conditions, etc. is the weakest argument you came up with. If these are understood by you as putting people in a life-threatening condition, then you can in a risk-free manner apply them to any war waged by human civilizations from the times of Sumer until now.
      
     Also noted is how easily you used the term ‘genocide’ with regard to the Turks in Bulgaria (“Given the reasoning of ICTJ I find it very difficult to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria were subjected to genocide.”) and how excruciatingly reluctant you are in using the term in the case of Armenians, the term that was coined based on the study of race annihilation of Armenians. Do you now see how Turkic-centric you are?
      
     For the record: Since I noticed that you have a tendency to ascribe to the posters something they didn’t actually say. Neither directly nor indirectly have I “described women, children and old people as representatives of the ‘warring parties’”. I now copy and paste what I actually said in one of my posts above: “Ethnic Turks (Ottoman or Bulgarian notwithstanding) represented one of the warring sides in 1877-78 and in 1912-13, thus they suffered atrocities.” You directly deny that the Armenian genocide was premeditated, ragnar naess, nonetheless you concentrate your attention on what others might have indirectly in your imagination said about the Turks. Does this make sense? Turkocentrism?

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333. Gor
     with all respect, I cannot follow your line of arguments. I am also surprised at your arguments. to give one example: you write: Now, I didn’t say “civilians were part of the warring parties”. I said ethnically Bulgarian Turks represented one of the warring parties: the Ottoman Turks.unquote. No, but they were IN FACT  civilians. This is one of my premises, and it is historically accurate, and it is in line with other examples where the genocide concept has been applied. The males murdered at Srebrenitsa were 1) not soldiers killed in military operations, 2) targeted because of their ethnicity. This formes an important part of the reasoning why the genocide concept applies to the case. The idea that “Bulgarian Turks ehnically represented one of the warring parties” makes no sense.

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334. The premise is wrong: these are not merely Armenian ‘claims’, they are a bona fide part of world history. It is only among certain circles in Turkey and small pockets – either allied with or bought by Turkey that dispute the veracity of the genocide.  Nationalist Turks seem to think that repeating a lie 10,000 times miraculously turns it into truth. Well, nothing could be further from truth, my friends, than the lies promulgated by them and their paid surrogates, particularly in the US. We all know who they are…disreputable, discredited and artificial ‘scholars’, who peddle propaganda as history. Does Turkey or anyone else really think the world was deaf, dumb and blind in 1915, or any year since?  There is enough objective, non-Armenian eyewitness documentation to fill many libraries, so attempts to redefine historical truth will not go far. It might fly inside Turkey, but that’s about the extent of it.

        

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335. monastras
     I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.   

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336. gor
     one more point: I never denied that the Armenians suffered genocide PROVIDED THE REASONING IN THE ICTJ. Obviously it is so. My point is that because of the wording of the ICTJ verdict – taken as a reasoning applying a general procedure that can also be applied to other cases – it is highly problematic to deny that genocide occurred against the Turks in Bulgaria. The ICTJ  is then read as providing a way of reasoning or method, providing criteria that can be applied in other cases. This is how the law operates. But maybe we do not adress each other or understand each other on this point. As I say I may be wrong but this is how it seems to me
     To emphasize: to my mind it is obvious that the Armenians suffered genocide in the sense provided by the ICTJ in 2002.  but note that nothing here is said about the kind of perpetrator. Whereas the genocide scholars make it a point that the perpetrators were in the government and that genocide was an adopted policy.

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337. I am impressed with Ragnar’s persistance and his speech to Monastras… wow… we have a public speaker amongst us ladies and gents..

     Ragnar, why don’t you use your talents to convince the Denialists Turks and yourself of course on: yes, Genocide is a Genocide(Gor jan.. excellent observation about Ragnar having NO problem labeling Bulgarian Turks unfortunate encounter with such event as Genocide but very very very very very very very reluctunt of labeling the Armenian Genocide, (even though we gave him plenty of reasons as to the definition of such a word and of course, about the father of the word Genocide..Rafael Lemkin who coined that word mainly because of the Genocide of our ancestors). it is very odd right? ABSOLUTELY NOT… Gor jan.. you may not know who Rangar is (even though I am sure you already figured it out) but I have known Ragnar for a very long time and I know his character.. He WILL NOT admit that Ottoman Turks Genocide of Eastern and Western Armenians WERE, IS AND WILL remain as Genocide no matter how many times he goes around it… no matter how many times we point out his reasons are not realistic, very confusing and very bias, no matter how many times we provide hard facts.. he will NOT budge…because he is tooooooo attached to the Turkish Denialist’s hip.. unfortunately.. even after his efforts to try to create communication between Armenians and Turks as if he is the moderator of all European Union… as if he has some sort of importance amongst us…sometimes I wonder .. DID HE REALLY SAY OR ASK THAT? especially after his long long lists of credentials and experience and trials and such.,…sometimes i laugh at some of the things he says because as if his word will b taken under consideration in the higher courts..NO WHERE in his posts does he condemn Turks for what they been doing to our history and what it is left of our ancient civilization, even after their ancestors annihiliated almost an entire ethnic group.. no where does he tells Turks to do what he wants Armenians to do.. no where does he refer to Genocide…. calls every name of the book but NEVER a GENOCIDE…it is amazing… and

     in addition, his calling for Monastras to come back on these pages.. his ploy and the reasons he used to bring his buddy back on these pages is just too touching…in so much so, that  i would suggest Ragnar to use the same tactic, same passion, same compassion, same desire to call upon Turkish govt to do the right thing, and your Turkish denilast to stop the whitewashing the truth and manipulating the facts… can you do that??? I doubt you can.. actually, i know you are capable of doing it.. you are just as a denialists as those we know for sure are….

     Ragnar- no matter how much BS you put on these pages, we know you the person is behind the pompeous self portrait…stop trying because you won’t succeed.. and your call to continue that you were hurt, that you were this and that but you promised yourself you are going to annoy the heck of out us was very touching but guess what sir??? you brought that all on to yourself. be fortunate and lucky that we are entertaining you and have entertain your nonsense and confusing self for so long… try doing this with Turks and see how far you will get… i meant on Turkish site…. oh wait.. but you don’t go much on Turkish site do you?? no you do not.. i only saw few posts related to you on  Zaman or Daily Harriyet…how do you explain that sir?????

     Gayane

     Reply

338. Gor jan– excellent work pushing back on Ragnar and his buddies…

     Boyajian jan and Seervart jan– brilliant… thank you

     Karo jan and Avery jan– xosq chunem.. apreq…

     Darwin jan– de dmbo piti linen to post such dumb comments.. we have seen and read everything…..yes qez het hamamit em…

     Reply

339. There is no confusion….Armenian ‘guerilla’ or fedayee actions were acts of self-defense and self-preservation. WIthout an army or an empire to defend themselves from government-hired thugs, what other options were available?   

     Reply

340. Ragnar,you wrote to monastras,
     Quote
     I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.  
     Unquote
     If we apply your logic then because of the PKK the whole Kurdish population should be subjected to Genocide,ethnic cleansing & disposal as you say which is very insulting. Your logic is very absurd.

     Reply

341. Ragnar
     In those years tentions between Armenians and Turks in eastern Anatolia had reached a dangerous point. Armenian revolutionaries were active in all of the provinces, while Turkish authorities were displaying increased severity. There were mass arrests and new reports of the use of torture in the prisons. 

     Reply

342. Ragnar—-your statement below..really????? really Ragnar???? you really actually typed those sentences??? REALLLYYYYY???

      this one post tells a great volume how unaware you are about history.. and the implications of what one group does to protect themselves from being wiped out.. this comment alone puts you in the “extreme “i have no idea why I even speak when I know nothing…”…. so not sure why you keep posting comments.. you are digging your own sorry hole my friend.. the more you open your mouth, the more you embarass yourself…

     naess
     August 21, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     monastras
     I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.  

     Vtiger jan- exactly… you nailed it…

     Gayane   

     Reply

343. ragnar naess,   please refer me to a single case of a war in human experience in which civilians representing the ethnicity of a warring party suffered no atrocities. I, in turn, cannot follow your line of arguments. Turks waged wars against Russians and the Balkan peoples. Atrocities against civilians during any war are inevitable. A situation of the civilians representing a warring side in a war and a situation of the civilians in no-war conditions cannot be juxtaposed. The idea that Bulgarian Turks ethnically represented one of the warring parties makes a perfect sense, if you compare their situation with the situation of Armenians who neither represented a warring side nor were anywhere near the war frontlines. Therefore, the deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part applies to Armenians, as addressed by ICTJ.

     Reply

344. well done Gayane.   Հինգ:
     

     if you patiently wait and watch  long enough, sooner or later the deep Anti-Armenian hate being concealed beneath  the flowery, soothing  prose bursts through: they can’t help it.

     and don’t you love that phrase   ‘…. a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population’. As if you are getting rid of garbage.

     and in case anyone forgot, this same individual called the Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’ a while ago.

     Reply

345. Boyajian

     Well some times smoking gun may not be the proof of a crime.I totaly understand where  you are coming from. Yes it was a great tragedy for a community that lived on this land for a few millenium. I am sure it was a sad day that close neighbours were seperated forever. I sometimes come a cross an Armenian song on Turkish Tv while the sad song goes on, we see an old Armenian house with a trembling kerosine light. That picture tells us the sad story of Armenians.

     As you know we have a similar problem at the moment. Yes the revolutionaries are also minorities at the moment but causing great destruction. I urge people to go out and stop this nonsence. They might enjoy to kill a few soldiers but The end result will be devastating for the community. I do not think anybody listens these sort of warnings. When they hit the wall they will understand but it will be too late. If we have primitive laws . Let’s change them. If we have other problems lets take action together but if they say this region is Kurdish area. This region  is  Armenian area. We want authonomy or independence. That won’t be the case. I believe that at the personel level and the national level, people decide their own destiny. You take the chance with your best ability then you accept the result. 

     Why doesn’t Turkey make a statement about the Armenian tragedy? Well,  Armenians are doing whatever they can do to harm Turkey. They will use every statement that Turkey makes against Turkey in order to make territorial claim in the future. Armenians are exremely nationalist people. If they had power that Turkey has now. They would wipe out Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia and South Africa. Armenina invaded Azerbaijan and there is no garantee that they will not invade Turkey when they get a chance. 

     Reply

346. Monastras, There was no freedom fighters before the Hamidian massacres, and for centuries before it the Armenians were always being targeted by both the government hired thugs, by the Turks and by the Kurds.  The Armenian freedom fighters were not in great numbers whatsoever, they certainly didn’t have an army as the Turkish government had it nor any tanks.  They were very minimal in quantity and they only wished to save the helpless population from being targeted, attacked, raped, pillaged, kidnapped and murdered continuously.  They were not the 3 Million Armenian population and they wouldn’t have been there in the first place if the entire Armenian population of Turkey was not being targeted for murder and destruction by the Ottoman Turkish government for centuries much before the Hamidian massacres and the 1915 Armenian Genocide.

     Reply

347. I will let our Boyajian, to give her answers to Monastras, but in the interim I will say this.  Armenians have been waiting for 96 plus years for Turkey to come to her senses and accept the Turkish Genocide to Armenians when all of Eastern Turkey of today has been Armenian Highlands for more than 5000 years, much before the Seljuk Turks who came from the steppes of Mongolia by the Altai mountains within the past 900 years.  You call Armenians nationalistic, and what do you call the Turks who wish to get control all of Europe if given the chance today.  Armenians were the indigenous people of Western Armenia, Eastern Armenia as well as Artsakh and Javakhk.  Armenians were targeted by your turkish millet since the turks colonized our country and then killed practically all of them and then pushed them all out.  Now ask yourself, why do you Turks want to get control of all Europe?  Do you call that being solely nationalistic or simply having more than life appetites to get control and colonyze all the countries on the globe?

     Reply

348. This statement below is the most dumbest statement I have ever read..

     Why doesn’t Turkey make a statement about the Armenian tragedy? Well,  Armenians are doing whatever they can do to harm Turkey. They will use every statement that Turkey makes against Turkey in order to make territorial claim in the future. Armenians are exremely nationalist people. If they had power that Turkey has now. They would wipe out Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia and South Africa. Armenina invaded Azerbaijan and there is no garantee that they will not invade Turkey when they get a chance. 

     a true indicator that the poster has so much insecurity of himself, of his land and of his culture that he is turning the rightful owners, the Armenians who had NO trail in history a shred of INTENTIONAL pain and killings upon othe people except during an actual battle or war, into barbarians.. cold blooded killers when in reality it is his ancestors who possess such traits and demonstrated such actions many times over… what are you afraid of Monastras??? Is it because your land does not belong to you??? is it because your govt does EVERYTHING in her power to hang on to it by denying on all accounts? Is it because your govt is afraid if they admit to the truth, they will left homeless and without identity??? The answers are obvious by your post… 

     But slight correction.. Armenians dont’ wipe out people MONASTRAS.. you got us confused with your ancestors….   

     I have a suggestion Monastras…below is your comment.. why don’t you use this and make it a rule.. because Turkey is in dire need of change….
      
     I urge people to go out and stop this nonsence. They might enjoy to kill a few soldiers but The end result will be devastating for the community. I do not think anybody listens these sort of warnings. When they hit the wall they will understand but it will be too late. If we have primitive laws . Let’s change them

       

     Reply

349. Monastras, the tragedy is also an international crime.   And crimes have punishments.
      
     You say Armenians are doing all they can do to harm Turkey.  I say Turkey has done and continues to do all that it can do to harm Armenia.  What is worse than elimination of a nation from its homeland and denial of this fact?
      
     You say Armenians invaded Azerbaijan.  I say Armenians defended Artsakh from another genocide by Turks.
      
     You say Armenians are extreme nationalists who will wipe out Turkey and Azerbaijan if they have the chance.  I say Armenians have the right to defend themselves when attacked.  It is the Armenians who are maintaining the ceasefire with Azerbaijan despite several provocations by Azerbaijan.  Does this seem like a nation bent on its neighbors destruction?
      
     Nationalism to you is a dirty word.  To us, it is fighting for survival against destructive forces who want you to fade away quietly like so many forgotten people.
      
     Peace is easier than you think.  It begins with recognizing the right of all people to self-determination.  Those who impose their power on others, invite rebellion.
      
     You believe that Armenian wants to take what belongs to Turkey.  I say Armenians wants what was ours by virtue of history and acknowledged as ours by arbitration in the Treaty Sevres.  
      
      

     Reply

350. My sister Gayane,  This is for you.  You are the direct descendants of these women.

      http://jdemirdjian.com/Armenians/armenian_women.html

     Reply

351. Gayane jan, The above address is right but unfortunately it didn’t work now when I tried it.

     When you google, try it under: Armenian Women  

     Reply

352. Monastras,if fighting for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide committed by your forefathers,or seeking justice for my innocent murdered family & compatriots,or dreaming of our lost lands grabbed from us by murder & ethnic cleansing or defending Artsakh in this case is being a nationalist, then I am the father of all nationalists.
     Scattered around the four corners of the world,being brought up with so many different languages & cultures how come that all Armenians are so unified when it concerns the Armenian Genocide?Could so many millions of people be brain washed?What type of organisation do you need to achieve that when we hardly can agree about a simple bbq picnic?
     Firstly try to convince the honourable Turkish intellectuals including Mr. Orhan Pamuk & then us.
     Don’t you think that you are the result of the famous facsist Turkish education?Don’t you think that you are brainwashed?Repetition is very tiring.Question yourself a bit.

     Reply

353. Seervart jan-…what is the story about? i tried to google Armenian Women but i get a great deal of links and don’t know what to look at… I really want to read what you proposed..:)

     Mersi my sister…

     Boyajian jan- apres quyrs.. well said 

     Gayane

     Reply

354. Gayane jan, It is too bad you couldn’t find the site.  It is about our very brave heroic women of the past as Sultan Simian, Serpouhi Yanekian-Asdghig, Mariam Chilingirian, Yeghisapeth Najarian-Yotneghparian, Khanem Ketenjian and Sose Mayrig who fought with her husband Serop aghpur and her gorunner (Hagop and Samson).  These women were our rare and our very brave women who joined the Fedayi men to save the Armenian population from slaughter by the Turkish thugs and the Kurds.  In the past and until today our women are not afraid to send their very young sons to fight the enemy for our nation’s survival.  Gayane you remind me of our rare but very brave women of the past and of present who stood behind their men and their sons in the Artsakh war as well.  You seem to me to have the same heart and vigor of these brave and dedicated women for our nation, for our national pride and for our great cause. 

     The site is put out it seems

     Reply

355. Gayane jan, The site is put out by Demirdjian, The Armenian Women.

     Reply

356. well said Seervart:  Turks definitely want to take control of Europe.
     
     well said  Boyajian:  for Turks,  others’  Nationalism is bad; Turkish Nationalist is good.

     Reply

357. Am I reading some of these posts correctly? Armenians are doing harm to Turkey?
     !
     1. Just who closed the border?
     2. Just who confiscated Armenian properties?
     3. Just who dictates the Armenian Church in Turkey?
     4. Who refuses to follow through on the protocols?
     5. Who will not open their archives?
     6. Who spends more on lobbying in America over genocide issues?

     Reply

358. VTiger, Abris! Very well said.  How true, we don’t agree about the parties and the organizations we belong to or what to cook on the bbq day; but when the talk comes about the Armenian Genocide there is no Armenian that doesn’t agee the horrible faith that befell our nation in 1915 and beyond, thanks to the Turkish government’s premeditated murders and atrocities.  And like Boyajian said it also, shouldn’t we be patriotic and nationalistic after all that?  Especially when the Genocide is still ongoing because of the Turks’ denials.

     Reply

359. Seervart jan, I drink to that. It takes a person like Gayane to appreciate Gayane.

     Reply

360. Seervart jan…i am truly touched.. shnorakalutyun… bayts gitem vor du yev bolor mer hayuhiner@ unenq nuyn uj yev karoxutyunna.. menq bolors el nuynnenq… Astvats pahi mez bolorin vor karoxananq pahel mer hayreniq@… yes hpart em qezanov yev bolorov vor mer het en…

     Darwin jan– BINGOOOOOOOOO.. well said…

     Gayane

     Reply

361. Papken jan, Thank you my friend you touched me.  It seems to me that yourself and many of our fine compatriots in here are made from the very same mold “gaghabar”.  I appreciate and I love all of you like my kin brothers and sisters.  Poloret shad abrik!

     Reply

362. Gayane jan, Vochinch, iraganutioun en polor esadsneres!

     Darwin, Thank you for your comment, you put it well my friend!

     Reply

363. Boyajian

     Why do you think that  tragedy is an international crime? For example If I walk on the verge of a cliff and fall over, this is would be my tragedy. Is this an international crime?  

     By the way, I want to go back to Mongolia but I have no money. Would you be kind enough to organise my removel? So I am sure this will be the beginning. So many people will follow me 

     Reply

364. Monastras— you said:

     Why do you think that  tragedy is an international crime? For example If I walk on the verge of a cliff and fall over, this is would be my tragedy. Is this an international crime? 

     Well the truth of this statement is this: it is absurt to begin with but not surprised.. Second, if you do fall of a cliff, it would not be tragedy..no.. it would be sad though… so go for it if you feel like it….. however, when Turkish thugs and soldiers push thousands of innocent people off clifsf or those thousands innocent Armenian women with their children threw themselves off the cliff in order to die in more humane way than under your blood sucking and blood thirsty barbarian ancestors’ fangs.. now that IS A HUGE TRAGEDY..that is what we call a precursor to the premeditated GENOCIDE…  and YES it is an international crime.. NOW you get it?

     You said:   
     By the way, I want to go back to Mongolia but I have no money. Would you be kind enough to organise my removel? So I am sure this will be the beginning. So many people will follow me

     Your barbarian ancestors did not have money, nor clothes on their back or the concept of what civilization is, so why do you need money to go back to where your ancestors came from? if you start walking now, you will probably end up where your geneological pool started and we will all be great and dandy.. we will all be on our own righfully owned lands… don’t you think??…   

     Reply

365. I believe you misunderstand what  I about motive. my point is that if the Armenian guerilla was dangerous from a military point, it gave th ittihadiswts a motive for getting rid of armenians. This is an argument that the ittihadists har genocidal intent, they had a clear motive. In investigations of crime if a suspect has motive, the case qagainst this suspect is strenghtened.
     Monastras a catasrophy can also be a crime. One example: when Talat Pasha admts that he did not prosecutes many ofthose those who massacred Armenians, and did this for political reasons not to antagonise the kurds, what he admits is a crime of omission. This is covered in criminal law, especially if superiors fail to punish criminals.
     Gayane I admire your spirit and fight fr what you believe it, but you still are not able to relate to what I say  

     Reply

366.  
     Monastras, your comment contains a hint of sarcasm which suggests your question is insincere.  I have to assume you are kidding when you ask how was the tragedy that befell the Ottoman Armenians an international crime.  Like the Ambassador to Turkey, Mr. Ricchiardone, I say either you are lacking in education, or you must be joking.  
      
     But,  I will answer you according to my understanding of basic human rights and crimes against humanity:  Any government that removes an entire ethnic group from their homes without providing any supplies for their care or shelter, nor protection of women, children and elderly from the attacks of marauding thieves, rapists and murderers, and knowingly neglects to take actions to prosecute those who brutalize the innocent, is at the very least guilty of part C.) of the genocide convention:
     (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

     
     You can’t possibly make a case that the government’s order to deport an entire ethnic population (primarily from interior villages that were nowhere near the war fronts) didn’t constitute a deliberate act of malicious neglect that resulted in the death of over a million people.  The marches were ordered by the government, who willingly chose to neglect the needs of the innocent Armenian women, children and elderly that they deported.  The magnitude of these deaths and the lack of action to prevent them, points to intent to destroy in whole or in part….
     
     
     These people did not choose to walk along that cliff (literally or figuratively),  but some, after finding themselves forced beside it, willingly chose that death rather than the indignities that awaited them.  You may choose to walk beside a cliff of you own choice, and if you slip and fall it will be a tragedy, but no government put you there or endangered your nation, so, no, it is not an international crime.

     
     You will have to finance your own trip to Mongolia.  I will not try to stop you, but I am not asking you to go either.  I am simply asking you to face up to the evil that was done in your name and from which you benefit on a daily basis.  I am asking you to deal responsibly with the crime that your nation committed against my nation and other Christians, to show remorse for these crimes and to make proper restitution.

      
     
     

     Reply

367. ooohhh Gayane, that was so mean…you shouldn’t have asked Ms. Monastras to walk back. I will make the down payment for a horse. It’s more comfortable and she will get there a lot quicker. We Armenians are compassionate people.
      

     Seriously though, Monastras Khanum, how about hitting all the wealthy Turk industrialists for the money ? You know that  the original source of their wealth is the stolen wealth of exterminated Armenians. You didn’t know ? Well then, here are a couple of excerpts from an article @TodaysZaman:
      
     [‘Once the new regime did away with its Greeks and Armenians, transferring their assets to Turkish (Sunni) Muslim and Kurdish (Sunni) Muslim communities,…’] (emphasis mine)

     [‘In fact, today, the source of the Turkish bourgeoisie’s wealth is Armenian and Greek property, although books on Turkish economic history never mention this,” he said.’] (emphasis mine)   

     You can read the rest of the article at TodaysZaman. Title is: “Armenian, Syriac and Kurdish questions should be taken as a whole” (22 May 2011, Sunday / E. BARIŞ ALTINTAŞ, İSTANBUL )
      
     For guests who are not familiar with the poster Monastras may get the impression that we  Armenians  are being mean to her.
      
     This is who this person is: {[Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust] (posted   @Hurriyet)}
      
      
     Anyone who insults us by insulting our murdered ancestors will get no consideration here.

      

     Reply

368. Monastras, that first answer was my long answer.
      
     My second answer is much shorter:  A normal human being would never need to ask such a question.  You are demonstrating the effects of the unexamined dark side of Turkish society and genocide denial which has hampered your ability to feel compassion for the loss of others and the humility to admit your (nation’s) faults.  But it is not too late.

     Reply

369. Monastras, back to the cliff.   In a way your government has placed you beside a metaphorical ‘valley of idiocy’ which you are already slipping into every time you choose to repeat the nonsense which blames the victims for their own demise.  If the CUP had simply arrested and detained those Armenians who actively rebelled against the government, most people would  say, they were within their rights.  But the CUP turned their wrath on an innocent population and sent them to the desert to die.  How do you deny this?  Where are the Armenians who were in the millions until 1915?  Don’t let foolish Turkish pride leave you blind.

     Reply

370. Ragnar- we all due respect.. but you are not someone any of us can relate to.. in any case, as I pointed out in my last comment to you on this discussion..: what you said below was absolutely Anti-Armenian and harsh… are you saying your motive was not to instigate such a matter??????  Are you denying that you are a closet Turkish denialist friend????
     naess
     August 21, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     monastras
     I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important

     Reply

371. Avery jan-  you are soo right.. I am sorry.. I was a bit harsh.. 

       My apologies Monastras.. I am willing to finance your trip to Mongolia as well… ohhhhhhhhhhhh but wait.. the money i could have had if my ancestors wealth, i could have helped you.. but all that was stripped from my ancestors by your ancestors and your current govt Monastras.. that wealth is being used to its fullest extent by the descendents of those robbers and murderors… so guess you have to go see your President Monastras.. Hey but i was willing to give a hand….Guess youhave to walk unless Avery is nice enough to give you a horse…

     Gayane

     Reply

372.  
     “In investigations of crime if a suspect has motive, the case qagainst [against] this suspect is strengthened [strengthened].”

     Ranger Naness, in the civilized nation’ criminal laws. motive is not one of the elements of the
     crimes. Prosecution does not have to prove motive of defendant. A suspect is not a defendant. Turks are the defendants of their crime of genocide against Armenian children, who no human being has right to treat them like an enemy. If he or she does, then he or she would have lost his or her privilege to be called by his or her kinds, a human being. Turk Nation has lost its privilege to be called a nation. Likewise, a police officer on duty who has committed a crime; he would lose his status as officer because he or she has committed a crime under color of law.
     Only reason that the Republic of Turkey is member of the United Nation is that UN is not the union of nations, it is union of states. Furthermore, we are not at the stage of investigation of the genocide against Armenian children, we are at the stage of sentencing and punitive sanctions of state of Republic of Turkey and et al.

     Reply

373. Avery jan– wanted to add another post to your list……this is just too important not to mention.I would ask everyone to pay attention to the last sentence (underlined)
     Monastras says:
     Comment:
     Gayane,
     Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?
     We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal.

     Reply

374. “…our fine compatriots in here are made from the very same mold “gaghabar”. ”

     Seervart jan, I wanted to make sure you and all other Armenians to know that there is no more powerful weapon than idealogy!   That is why victory belong to us!

     Reply

375. Papken:  I believe Seervart meant ‘made from the same mold’ as in pouring molten metal into a mold, Կաղապար, not Գաղափար.
     Just the same, you are right: no more powerful weapon than ideology.

     Gayane: although underlining is shown as an option @AW post-entry, it gets discarded after you submit.

     Reply

376. Papken jan,
     “Seervart jan, there is no more powerful weapon than ideology!”

     How true Papken, how true!  Ever since that I could remember, I have always been that person who lived all her life with an ideology.  The great cause to save the world and with it our one and only Armenia !!!!!

     Reply

377. Papken jan, You know, when our Fedayis were fighting in Artsakh, they were all fighting with the greatest belief that they were doing the right thing as their country belonged to them from time immemorial, it was part of their blood and it was and is part of their existence.  That’s why they won.   They won with that same ideology that you and I are speaking about, and the outcome as history knows it…. We Won and we shall Win Again!!!!!

     Reply

378. ԿՓԱՓԱԳԻՄ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ ԿԱՐԴԱԼ ԱՅՍ ՀՈԴՎԱԾԸ

     Reply

379. The party line is showing its hand here in a rather obvious way…blame the victim…this ‘tragedy’, aka, the genocide, was the fault of the murdered people, not of those who weilded the bayonets and swords. There seems to be no acknowledgment of the massive power of the Ottoman empire’s army and its ability to mobilize paid surrogates (aka, Kurds), to carry out raids against Armenians. In an unstable situation, where a government or ruling group feels threatened and is bankrupt, it is rather easy for almost anyone to be lured into participating in the evil deeds that comprise genocide. Propaganda aimed at the targets is on the rise and the masses of uneducated, poor people are then convinced that they themselves are the victims…it is called transference and can be very convincing and successful as a strategy. 

     Almost 100 years later, we, as Armenians, if we want to change hearts and minds in Turkey, need to realize that several generations there have been fed a steady stream of anti-Armenian propaganda, that includes ignoring the (overall positive) Armenian contribution to their country’s history and culture, and focusing on the tiny fraction of Armenians who justifiably took up arms in self-defense after years of abuse, massacre and oppressive taxation. The only way to do this is with honest education, facts and discussion, because hard truth is much stronger than any threat or insult you can throw in their direction.  Like young Arabs across the Muslim world who want to throw off the shackles of dictatorship, many young Turks are hungry for and want the truth – not the set of lies put forth by the inheritors of the CUP.

      

     Reply

380. I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth. I can  understand that you want to impose your ideas on to the other people. I get the impression that you aren’t ready to coexist with Turks in the eastern Anatolia. As far as I can understand from your words either you will remove the Turks or other way around.Would you prefer to live with Turks in Turkey or live in USA which is a free country? Would you prefer to  speak Turkish which is a primitive language or speak an international language? Would you prefer to earn $400 in Turkey or $1500 a month in USA? 

     I was joking when I said please finance my removal. Thank you for your offer anyway. I will buy a donkey to ride. 

     Reply

381. There was this mythical
     paradise called Ottoman Empire, where Christians and Muslims lived happily as
     equals.

     Turks, whom the indigenous Armenians had invited to come in from their homeland
     near the Altai Mountains, treated their gracious hosts with great respect and
     love. Armenian boys, girls, and young women were lovingly abducted and
     subjected to …. lovemaking.

      

     Avery, we don’t need
     nonsense hate and discrimination stories, fact is that  peaceful times were available for centuries.
     Turks respected Armenians and treated them well and Armenians respected the
     Turks as well. When Anatolia became home to the Turks, the Armenians benefited
     from the just, humane, tolerant and unifying traditions and beliefs of their
     new Turkish neighbors, it can even be called the golden age of Armenians. You
     should read also none biased and none hatred books, blogs, you should read
     books and reports that tell the truth. Only this will give peace, to all of us.
     Of course there were bad and horrible times, but for both communities it was
     horrible, both sides did wrong things, that you can’t deny. But just don’t try to
     exaggerate and distort the facts and stories please, this is no help. Otherwise
     it’s seems to me through demonizing the Turks you try to gather support until
     you have the means to get what you want, I SAY a BIG NO to IT. Through manipulation
     you will get nothing but only more unnecessary hatred, a nice future that you
     guys are planting. In fact I would like to see a peaceful good neighborly future, but how when so many radicals hate Turks.

     Reply

382. Why do we look like Turks??? We DONT look like TUrks.. .Turks look like US… unfortunately, indigenous Armenian race was fair skin and light eyes..  you know why this dynamic changed over?? ummmmmmm….welllll… knowing that your capacity of true history is limited or simply just not there, i would say because of rape, forceful marriages and adbuctions of beautiful Armenian women by your barbaric ancestors…

     Madam Gayane,  
     The only barbaric things I see are ugly hatred, nothing else. But we are not surprised, growing up with manipulated and exaggerates stories about Turks some finding pleasure by it (Avery,Gayane), one should not wonder. I wished you had more humanity in yourself. Our ancestors the Seljuk’s were more successful than Byzantine that is all; you don’t need to call others barbaric because you had no good history (Before controlled by others, not independent for centuries). At least for centuries we lived in peace, go through proper history. Calling Seljuk’s as
     barbaric and uncivilized is just hatred and ignorance, the Seljuk empire was a vast empire and with high civilization, and with strong military power.

     Reply

383. Your personal feelings have no bearing on facts.  Your personal doubt or conviction has no factual value. Obviously you did not read the article @TodaysZaman by İsmail Beşikçi (an ethnic Turk BTW).
      
     Just the same, I’ll refer you to an article right here: http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/11/gunaysu-denial/
      
     Here is the relevant paragraph:
      
     [ I once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims.” 5  ]  (emphasis mine)
      
      
     Your blind hatred for Armenians and your belief in the  Turks’  inherent (alleged) genetic superiority clearly shows in this sentence: ‘I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth.’ Obviously, uneducated Armenian peasants, who were eking out a sustenance existence under the benevolent gaze and tutelage of their intellectually superior Turk masters could not possibly have been anything but farm animals on two legs. And clearly the delusion that those things could possibly have had accumulated any wealth at all is a ‘fabrication by defeated Armenians’. (don’t you like that phrase ?)

     Reply

384. Armenians have ALWAYS been superior in their intellect, culture, arts,
     music, trade than Turks.. maybe after you realize this much, then you will understand why your ancestors attempted to wipe out a race tha they were intimidated of…so don’t act like the Ottomans allowed Armenians to be rich businessmen, or built churches and schools…. so you stand corrected on this statement ….
     I’ll try to help and advice you, no one is superior then the other. Have a good character be a good person and live in peace with your environment that makes someone superior not the things
     you are claiming. Second, anyone who studies and is devoted to education will
     get knowledge, because God / Allah gave humans the capability to learn and to
     read. So you should stop, being purely nationalistic. Further intellectuals from the Armenian side were available no one denies that, and we appreciate that as well, but they  don’t need to be
     used and hijacked by you in order to make yourself superior as the so called ‘True Armenian’, you don’t respect even moderate and friendly thinking Armenians. Even though you live maybe in the US or other places it seems that you have not received the basic modern attitude and education in today’s World. That is respect for all people. A barbaric attitude is displayed here against Turks
     but of course I know where the fault lies , not by you but by the barbaric Turks.
     Thanks for remindingJ I guess the bad weather is also because of the barbaric Turks

     Reply

385. Anadolu: one of my capable compatriots will respond to your post forthwith, by my leave. 
     I need to take a short break.

     Reply

386. Joseph,
     A mixed culture brings more traditions together, no one will deny that and of course Armenians same as Greeks have a nice cuisine culture. I once ate the rice from Kazakhs and East
     Turkistan people; they had almost the same food as in today’s Turkey. Rice prepared with butter, but they use definitely more butter than we use in Turkey. Or Izgara/Grill very famous in Turkey, they made the same things, so it seems that we still have the same cuisines as our ancestors. Please don’t forget the Tatars and Khazars, (Khazars adopted in the 5 or 6th century Judaism)
     which were the only Turkish tripe to adopt Judaism, I guess. And don’t forget also the Turks who migrated to today’s Hungary. So what we learn from this, migration is a human attitude. Some did it before some later.

     Reply

387. That priest had every right to notify outside forces about the situation. Where else could he turn, the Ottoman authorities? The ones that were committing this crime? Would you trust
     a government that is terrorizing your people?
     Dear Joseph
     From that report I tried to show that the priest exaggerated a lot and thereby he tried to manipulate the authorities in order to get support against the Ottoman government. We all know the falsified and untrue stories and how dangerous they can be for a country, for instance the attack on Iraq 2003, the so called WMD were never found, WMD were a pretext in order to invade Iraq.

     Reply

388. Andolu, please.  You are confusing long periods where minorities ‘accepted’ a life as second class citizens  as periods of ‘peace’ in the Ottoman empire.  There is a difference between true respect between equals and what is mistaken as respect between superiors and their subordinates who do what they must to protect themselves and their families from retribution.  If there was true respect between Turks and the ‘minorities’ in the empire, there would have been equal laws and equal opportunities.  There wasn’t.
      
     When subordinated people become enlightened to their basic human rights and begin to aspire to live as equal citizens within their society, the dominant group has two choices:  to adapt their attitudes and their laws and mores to accept this change; or to increase repression even to the point of violence.  It is clear which choice the CUP government made.  
      
     Andolu, you believe a myth of a golden period which falsely glorifies the Ottoman empire.  This myth does not honestly acknowledge the abuse of minority groups in the empire.  How can you ignore the many massacres against Armenians other minorities and claim a ‘golden period.’  Armenians had a “golden period” in the 5th century, while Turks were still marauding in the Altai mountains.  We were building architectural marvels while your ancestors were living in tents and caves.  You need to read history from non-Turk, independent sources to understand what your people destroyed, what you claimed for yourselves, who built your empire,  and who you subjugated.  
      
     There is a reason that Turks feel they are being denigrated and criticized.  You are.  You are because you fail to face the truth about your history of abuse of power and unwillingness to let people choose their own identities.    You want to be accepted by pluralistic societies but are intolerant of pluralism in your own land and unwilling to pay for the abuses against others.  Hrant Dink died trying to teach you this and Orhan Pamuk has been forced to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life rather than be exalted as a great writer in his homeland.
      
     I don’t know if there ever was a true golden period anywhere, but I don’t think that the years when Ottomans subjugated Christian minorities was golden, nor do I think this modern republican period in which Turks tried to artificially assert that these lands belonged to Turks is golden.  Far from it.
      

     Reply

389. Karekin,I’m touched & you’ve expressed it beautifully.Hope that our Turkish commentators grasp what you’ve written & question themselves.Their position is not easy.

     Reply

390. Anadolu,occupation & slavery was not our golden age.We always lived as 2nd class citizens,with fear & were always scapegoats…Comparatively this period of time was heaven compared with the Genocide.So before & after Genocide.Since we are in the period of after Genocide we are still awaiting for justice & instead we only get denial & this is considered as another Genocide.

     Reply

391. I think it is fair to say that Armenians on the  whole during the Ottoman centuries led a faitly good existence if you compare with other groups. It was also characterised by what you call status incongruity, I berlieve. While Muslims were regarding as the ruling class (millet.i hakimiye, wasnt it? )the Armenians were overrepresenated among the richers layers of the society

     Reply

392. Aweeeeeeeeeeeee. so much brotherly and sisterly love is shared from Anadolu and Monastras.. oh my… too much to handle.. truly…. we are touched by your kindness and your love…

     Anadolu— you said
     but for both communities it was horrible, both sides did wrong things, that you can’t deny

     I am sorry, I must have misread or gotten the wrong information about the history because no where it said Armenians did wrong to Turks  INTENTIONALLY!!!!.. Please do provide sources where it specifically states that the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population took arms against Turks, where women, children and elderly organized secret organizations to go after ordinary Turks, where Armenians took all the wealth, property and made them theirs.. please do provide… i am curious to read this myself…please make sure to name the authors and the books..

     You said: When Anatolia became home to the Turks, the Armenians benefited
     from the just, humane, tolerant and unifying traditions and beliefs of their
     new Turkish neighbors

     Please provide a source where it specifically says Armenians benefited from the group of people who had no identity, no culture, no civilization, no wealth, and no place among more advanced nations…. you do know where your ancestors came from right?? either you know it but act dumb or you don’t know it;  which makes it even worst because if one has no idea yet comments anyway, he or she truly puts a HUGE spotlight on how much he or she lacks in knowledge..either way… until you produce something where it shows Turks brought what Armenians did not have before Turks arrival to our lands and created such paradise for Armenians that no other nation saw or experienced, I would suggest you keep your mouth shot…Thank you very much……

     You said:
     But just don’t try to
     exaggerate and distort the facts and stories please, this is no help. Otherwise
     it’s seems to me through demonizing the Turks you try to gather support until
     you have the means to get what you want, I SAY a BIG NO to IT.

     That is right Anadolu.. you are absolutely right.. Your govt shoved lies in your heads for so long that you can’t distinguish between what is right and what is wrong. to the degree where you blame the victims for your ancestors bloody deeds.. to the degree where you can’t wake up from your amnesia.. so yes i say STOP demonizing ARmenians to try to make them bunch of liars to cover up for the murder of 1.5-2 million innocent people, so yes I say STOP exaggerating and distorting history to fit into your govt cover ups..one day everything will burst open..so why not come out of your closets??? only guilty will do everything in their power such as paying millions and millions of dollars to politicians and threatens others in order to keep the lies and the skeleton in the closet (aka TUrkish govt plus their denialists followers).. how do you explain that???? i bet you can’t.. so instead of preaching to those who know WHAT HAPPENED.. why don’t you preach to your other denialists close Neo-Ottoman mentality friends…

     Until Armenians get justice for all the innocent souls your barbaric ancestors took as well as our property and wealth, you can’t and will not be living amongst us who know what true humanity is… and know what it means love thy neighbor….

     Gayane       
       

     Reply

393. Please explain your point, Ragnar?  So some Armenians learned how to be successful despite the circumstance of being second class citizens.  And some Armenians lived well.  Does this negate the lack of equal rights and protections under the law of the minorities?  Does this invalidate the aspirations for self-determination that emerged among Armenians as it had in other nation groups in the empire?  Does this on some level excuse any of the brutality that was employed to “quiet” their demands.
      

     Reply

394. Monastras:

     You said:
     I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth. I can  understand that you want to impose your ideas on to the other people. I get the impression that you aren’t ready to coexist with Turks in the eastern Anatolia.

     I guess if Armenians were peasants when your babarian ancestors did not even know how to build an actual home, then why did the Ottomans (if they were such rich, and mighty Empire) systematically murder, rape, mutilate and deporte 1.5-2 million innocent people??? It would not be for the Armenians’ poor, broken down homes, or for their poor pocket books or for the dry and unproductive lands, or for their ugly and crumbling churches or for their lack of education/intelligence…..would it??? hmmmmm if that is the case, i can’t IMAGINE why your barbarian ancestors would go in so much trouble carrying out a Genocide if they had nothing to gain by disposing of the Armenians. you making such a statement really shows your lack of education and understanding… can you say “huhh???? what?? who am I? where am I? MOnastras…   

     You said:
     I was joking when I said please finance my removal. Thank you for your offer anyway. I will buy a donkey to ride.
      nooooooooooooooooooo reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy???? bummer.. and i thought you were serious…oh well…

     Monastras.. you can’t be riding a donkey.. you are worth more than that… are not you?? you are someone who is worthy of a horse and Avery was nice enough to offer a down payment for it.. we can’t let you suffer like that…donkey’s are cute and dandy but the trip would be too rough.. it is not cool… no.. can’t have that.. sorry…

     Gayane     

     Reply

395. Abris Boyajian, Very well said and I couldn’t agree with you more!!!

     Reply

396. Ragnar: really??? really?? you really know this because you lived in those times and you were friends with my ancestors?? did you have Armenian coffee and byorek with my great great grandparents and they told you all about the beautiful lives amongst the barbarians??? MINUS the ordinary and innocent Turks who were actually there to help the massacred Armenians.. wecan’t bow our heads to them because some risked their lives to protect Armenians and I am forever thankful to them… OR you have a HUGE bias when it comes to ARmenians and Turks… your statement below is YET ANOTHER perfect example how you view the Turkish side: loving, caring, humane, proper, always willing to help the poor minorities…this is why i believe you will never be a neutral party on these pages.. you are too lovey dovey toward Turks…..

     ragnar naess
     August 24, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     I think it is fair to say that Armenians on the  whole during the Ottoman centuries led a faitly good existence if you compare with other groups. It was also characterised by what you call status incongruity, I berlieve. While Muslims were regarding as the ruling class (millet.i hakimiye, wasnt it? )the Armenians were overrepresenated among the richers layers of the society

     Reply

397. Bedrosyan: Որոնվում է Lost հայերեն Եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցների Թուրքիայում

     Dear ՀԵՐՄԻՆԷ, this is Armenian translation of this article as you wished!
     By: Րաֆֆի Bedrosyan
     (Հայերեն շաբաթաթերթ) – Հուլիսի 21 – ին ԱՄՆ Ներկայացուցիչների պալատի Արտաքին գործերի կոմիտեն ընդունել է ճնշող մեծամասնությունը Բերմանը – Cicilline փոփոխությունը հիման վրա վերադարձը եկեղեցիների ներկայացուցիչների կողմից բանաձեւի spearheaded Ed Royce ու Հովարդ Բերմանը, որի համար 43 – ից մինչեւ 1 – ին, կոչ անելով Թուրքիային վերադառնալ գողացել հայերեն եւ այլ քրիստոնեական եկեղեցիներ, եւ վերջ ռեպրեսիաների իր քրիստոնյա փոքրամասնությունների.

     Հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915 թ.

     Որտեղ են այդ կորած կամ գողացված հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում. Ինչպես շատերն էին այնտեղ մինչեւ 1915 թ շրջադարձային հայերի աշխարհը, երբ նրանք էին uprooted եւ wiped դուրս իրենց հայրենիքում ավելի քան 3000 տարի. Քանի եկեղեցի կա հիմա. Հաշվի առնելով, որ յուրաքանչյուր համայնք հայերեն invariably strove է կառուցել դպրոցի կողքին իր եկեղեցին, թե շատ հայերեն դպրոցներ կան Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915, եւ թե շատ կան հիմա? Քանի հայերեն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են մնացել կանգնած այժմ Թուրքիայում ավելի հեշտ է մի հարցի `ընդամենը 34 եկեղեցի եւ 18 դպրոցներում այսօր մեկնել է Թուրքիա, հիմնականում Ստամբուլում, մոտ քիչ, քան 3000 ուսանողների շրջանում այդ դպրոցներում: Որ դժվարին ու ողջ դառնությունն այն է, թե հարցը շատ կային նախկինում.

     Վերջին ուսումնասիրությունները ցցիկներ թիվը հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայի առաջ 1915 – ին, ժամը մոտ 2,300. Այդ դպրոցների թիվը մինչեւ 1915 – ը գնահատվում է մոտ 700, իսկ 82,000 ուսանողների. Այս թվերը են միայն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ իրավասության տակ Ստամբուլի հայերեն պատրիարքարանի եւ առաքելական սուրբ եկեղեցու, եւ, հետեւաբար, չեն ներառում է բազմաթիվ եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ պատկանող բողոքական եւ կաթոլիկ հայերեն parishes. Ամերիկյան քոլեջների եւ դպրոցների միսիոներ, հիմնականում մասնակցում են երիտասարդները հայերեն են նաեւ բացառեց այդ թվերը. Թիվը հայերեն յաճախող ուսանողներու թուրքական դպրոցները, կամ փոքր դպրոցներ են տները գյուղերում անհայտ են, եւ ներառված չէ: Վերջապես, այդ թվերը չեն ներառում եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են Կարսի եւ Արդահանի մարզերում, որոնք չեն կազմում Թուրքիայի մինչեւ 1920, եւ մի մասը Ռուսաստանին, քանի որ 1878 թ.

     Հայերեն դպրոցների Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915 թ.

     Երկու քարտեզները ցույց են տալիս լայն տարածում հայերեն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ Թուրքիայի առաջ 1915 թ. Երկու ցուցակները համար հայերեն եկեղեցիներն ու դպրոցները ոչ մի կերպ ամբողջական, բայց պետք է համարվեն որպես նախնական ուսումնասիրությունը, որը կարող է ծառայել որպես հիմք հետագա հետազոտություններ: Տեղը անունները հիմնված են հին օսմանյան վարչական համակարգում, փոխարեն որ ժամանակակից Թուրքիան. Նրանք հավաքվել են վարպետորեն Zakarya Mildanoglu, տարբեր աղբյուրներից, ինչպես օրինակ `Օսմանյան հայերեն ազգային խորհրդի տարեկան հաշվետվություններ, Էջմիածին ամսագրի Վիեննայի Mkhitarists, եւ ուսումնասիրություններ են Teotig, Գեւորգյան, եւ Nishanyan.

     Կորսված Եկեղեցիներ

     Ադանա: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Yureghir, Ջեյհան, Tarsus, Silifke, Yumurtalik, Dortyol, Iskenderun, 25 եկեղեցի

     Amasya: Vezirkopru, Mecitozu, Merzifon, Havza, Gumushacikoy, Ladik, 15 եկեղեցի

     Անկարա. Կենտրոն, Haymana, Sincan, 5 եկեղեցիների

     Antakya. Կենտրոն, Samandagh, 7 եկեղեցի

     Antep. Կենտրոն, Nizip, Halfeti, 4 եկեղեցի

     Arapkir (Մալաթիա) Arapkir եւ Kemaliye գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

     Arganimadeni (Elazig) Erganis, Siverek, Bulanik, Kahta, 10 եկեղեցի

     Արմաշի (Akmeshe): 2 եկեղեցիները

     Artvin: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

     Բալըքեսիր: Բալըքեսիր, Mustafakemalpasha, Biga, Bandirma, 6 եկեղեցիների

     Bayburt: Bayburt կենտրոն ու գյուղերում, 34 եկեղեցի

     Beshiri (Դիարբեքիր) Beshiri ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

     Bilecik (Բուրսա) Golpazar, 4 եկեղեցի

     Bingol (Genc): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

     Բիթլիս: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 30 եկեղեցի

     Բիթլիս: Tatvan, Ahlat, Mutki, Hizan, 66 եկեղեցի

     Բոլու: Duzce, Akyazi, 5 եկեղեցիների

     Բուրսա. Կենտրոն, Orhangazi, 11 եկեղեցի

     Charsancak (Թունջելին) Mazgirt, pertek, Pulumur, Hozat, եւ գյուղեր, 93 եկեղեցի

     Chemishgezek (Թունջելին): 20 եկեղեցիները

     Chungush (Դիարբեքիր) Chungush կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, 2 եկեղեցի

     Դերսիմի: Hozat, Pertek, 28 եկեղեցի

     Divrigi (Sivas) կենտրոնի ու գյուղեր, 25 եկեղեցի

     Diyadin (Էրզրում): Diyadin ու գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

     Դիարբեքիրի `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

     Էդիրն: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

     Egin (Erzincan) Kemaliye, Ilic, եւ գյուղեր, 17 եկեղեցի

     Egin: 3 եկեղեցիները

     Eleshkirt (Էրզրում): Eleshkirt ու գյուղեր, 6 եկեղեցիների

     Ergani: Ergani ու գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

     Erzincan: Erzincan կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, 52 եկեղեցի

     Էրզրում. Կենտրոն, Aziziye, Yakutiye, Ashkale, Narman, Ispir, Oltu, Shenkaya, Horasan, Pazaryolu, եւ գյուղեր, 65 եկեղեցի

     Giresun: Tirebolu, 1 եկեղեցի

     Gumushane. Կենտրոն, 4 եկեղեցի

     Gurun (Sivas): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, եկեղեցիներ 5

     Harput (Elazig) Harput կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, Karakochan, Palu, Keban, 67 եկեղեցի

     Hinis (Էրզրում): Hinis ու գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

     Hoshap: Hoshap ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

     Ստամբուլում: Եվրոպական / Trachean մարզի 36 եկեղեցիներ, ասիական / Անատոլիական շրջանում, 8 եկեղեցիներ, ընդհանուր 44 եկեղեցի

     Իզմիր: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Manisa, Turgutlu, Akhisar, Bergama, Nazilli, Odemish, 23 եկեղեցի

     Izmit: Gebze, Kocaeli, Sakarya, Kandira, Geyve, Karamursel, 50 եկեղեցի

     Kastamonu: Tashkopru, Boyabat, Inebolu, 7 եկեղեցի

     Կայսրի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Nigde, Aksaray, ԲՈՐ, Nevshehir, Tomarza, Develi, Bunyan, Talas, 57 եկեղեցի

     Kemah (Erzincan) Kemah ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

     Kighi (Bingol) Kighi ու գյուղեր, 58 եկեղեցի

     Կոնիա: կենտրոն, ԲՈՐ, Burdur, Nevshehir, 7 եկեղեցի

     Kutahya. Կենտրոն, Tavshanli, 7 եկեղեցի

     Lice: Lice ու գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

     Մարդին: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 3 եկեղեցի

     Մուշում: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, սպասավոր, Malazgirt, Bulanik, Varto, Hizan, 148 եկեղեցի

     Ordu: Karaduz, Ulubey, 3 եկեղեցի

     Palu (Elazig) Palu կենտրոն, Kovancilar, Karakochan, եւ գյուղեր, 44 եկեղեցի

     Pasinler (Էրզրում): Pasinler ու գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

     Pulumur (Թունջելին) Pulumur ու գյուղեր, 6 եկեղեցիների

     Ռիզե: Yolusti, 1 եկեղեցի

     Սամսուն (Canik): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 43 եկեղեցի

     Սամսունում: Ordu, 1 եկեղեցի

     Shebin karahisar: Shebinkaya կենտրոն, Giresun, եւ մի մասը Sivas, 32 եկեղեցի

     Սիլվան (Դիարբեքիր): Սիլվան ու գյուղերում, 34 եկեղեցի

     Sivas: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Hafik, Զառա, Ulash, Yildizeli, Sariz, Bunyan / Ekrek, Gemerek, 110 եկեղեցի

     Tercan (Erzincan) եւ Erzincan Tercan գյուղեր, 33 եկեղեցի

     Tokat: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 32 եկեղեցի

     Տրապիզոնի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, եւ, Machka, Surmene, Akchaabat, Fatsa, Yorma, Arakli, 89 եկեղեցի

     Ուրֆայի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Birecik, Siverek, Suruch, Hikvan, Harran, Bozova, Halfeti, 17 եկեղեցի

     Վան `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Edremit, Gurpinar, Edremit, ozalp, Ercish, Timar, muradiye, Tatvan, Bashkale, Gevash, Bahchesaray, Chatak 322 եկեղեցի

     Yozgat: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Bogazliyan, Sarikaya, Cayiralan, Sorgun, Shefaatli, եւ գյուղեր, 51 եկեղեցի

     Yusufeli (Artvin): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերի եկեղեցիները: 4

     Զեյթուն (Մարաշ) `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում եկեղեցիներ 14

     Կորսված Դպրոցներ

     Ադանա: 25 դպրոցներ, 1.947 տղաները, 808 աղջիկներ, 2755 ուսանողներ, 40 արական, 29 իգական, 69 ուսուցիչներ

     Ախթամար: 32 դպրոցներ, 1.106 տղաները, 132 աղջիկներ, 1238 ուսանողներ, 36 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

     Amasya – Merzifon: 9 դպրոցներ, 1.524 տղաները, 814 աղջիկներ, 2.338 աշակերտներ, 54 ուսուցիչներ

     Անկարան: 7 դպրոցներում, 895 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 395, 1,290 ուսանողներ, 20 արական, իգական 9, 29 ուսուցիչներ

     Antakya, 10 դպրոց, 440 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 47, 487 աշակերտներ, 10 ուսուցիչներ արական

     Antep: 9 դպրոց, 898 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 798, 1606 ուսանողներ, 31 արական, 27 իգական, 58 ուսուցիչներ

     Arapkir: 18 դպրոց, 713 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 223, 936 ուսանողներ, 23 արական, իգական 2, 25 ուսուցիչներ

     Արմաշի: 2 դպրոց, 190 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 110, 300 ուսանողներ, 5 արական, 1 իգական, 6 ուսուցիչներ

     Bandirma: 8 դպրոցներում, 700 տղաներ, 644 աղջիկներ, 1.344 ուսանողներ, 22 արական, 13 իգական, 35 ուսուցիչներ

     Bayburt: 9 դպրոց, 645 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 199, 844 ուսանողներ, 27 արական, իգական 5, 32 ուսուցիչներ

     Beyazit: 6 դպրոցներ, 338 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 54, 392 ուսանողներ, 11 արական, իգական, 2, 13 ուսուցիչներ

     Bilecik `10 դպրոց, 1.120 տղաները, 143 աղջիկներ, 1.263 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, 3 իգական, 21 ուսուցիչներ

     Բիթլիս, 12 դպրոց, 571 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 63, 634 աշակերտներ, 20 ուսուցիչներ արական

     Բուրսա `16 դպրոց, 1345 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 733, 2078 ուսանողներ, 34 արական, 20 իգական, 54 ուսուցիչներ

     Charsancak `12 դպրոց, 617 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 189, 806 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, իգական 2, 18 ուսուցիչներ

     Chemishgezek `12 դպրոց, 456 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 272, 728 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

     Կիպրոս: 3 դպրոց, տղաների 63, 37 աղջիկ, 100 ուսանողներ, 8 արական, 1 իգական, 9 ուսուցիչ

     Darende: 2 դպրոց, 260 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 70, 330 ուսանողներ, 4 արական, 1 իգական, 5 ուսուցիչներ

     Divrigi `10 դպրոց, 757 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 100, 857 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 2, 20 ուսուցիչներ

     Դիարբեքիրում: 4 դպրոցների, 660 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 324, 1014 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 9, 27 ուսուցիչներ

     Egin: 4 դպրոցների, 541 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 215, 756 ուսանողներ, 13 արական, իգական 9, 22 ուսուցիչներ

     Erzincan: 22 դպրոցներ, 1389 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 475, 1864 ուսանողներ, 54 արական, իգական 9, 63 ուսուցիչներ

     Էրզրում `12 դպրոց, 485 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 10, 495 աշակերտներ, 12 ուսուցիչներ արական

     Էրզրում: 27 դպրոցներ, 1.956 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1.178, 3134 ուսանողներ, 44 արական, 41 իգական, 85 ուսուցիչներ

     Gurun `12 դպրոց, 736 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 78, 814 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 2, 20 ուսուցիչներ

     Harput: 27 դպրոցներ, 2.058 տղաները, 496 աղջիկներ, 2.554 ուսանողներ, 49 արական, իգական 9, 58 ուսուցիչներ

     Hinis: 8 դպրոցներում, 352 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 15, 367 ուսանողներ, 11 արական, 1 իգական, 12 ուսուցիչներ

     Ispir (artvin): 3 դպրոցներ, 80 տղաներ, 3 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

     Ստամբուլի: 40 դպրոցներ, 3.316 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 2.327, 5.643 ուսանողներ:

     Իզմիր: 27 դպրոցներ, 1.640 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1.295, 2.935 ուսանողներ, 55 արական, 54 իգական, 109 ուսուցիչներ

     Izmit: 38 դպրոցներ, 5,900 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 3.385, 9.285 ուսանողներ, 142 Արական, 82 իգական, 224 ուսուցիչներ

     Kastamonu, 3 դպրոց, 110 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 50, 160 ուսանողներ, 2 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

     Կայսրի: 42 դպրոցներ, 3.795 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1140, 4.935 ուսանողներ, 107 արական, 18 իգական, 125 ուսուցիչներ

     Kemah: 13 դպրոց, 646 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 28, 674 աշակերտներ, 16 ուսուցիչներ արական

     Kighi: 9 դպրոց, 645 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 199, 844 ուսանողներ, 27 արական, իգական 5, 32 ուսուցիչներ

     Կոնիա, 3 դպրոց, 213 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 137, 350 ուսանողներ, 6 արական, իգական 6, 12 ուսուցիչներ

     Kutahya `5 դպրոց, տղաների 825, 349 աղջիկներ, 1174 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, իգական 7, 23 ուսուցանում

     Լիմ եւ Gduts կղզիներ, Վան: 3 դպրոցների, 203 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 56, 259 ուսանողներ, 5 արական, 1 իգական 6 ուսուցիչների համար

     Մալաթիա, 9 դպրոց, տղաների 872, 230 աղջիկներ, 1.137 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, 3 իգական, 19 ուսուցիչներ

     Մարաշ: 23 դպրոցներ, 1.261 տղաները, 378 աղջիկներ, 1.669 ուսանողներ, 34 արական, 10 իգական, 44 ուսուցիչներ

     Մուշ: 23 դպրոցներ, 1.034 տղաները, 284 աղջիկներ, 1318 ուսանողներ, 31 արական, իգական 4, 35 ուսուցիչներ

     Palu: 8 դպրոցներում, 505 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 50, 555 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

     Pasen: 7 դպրոցներում, 315 տղաներ, 7 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

     Սամսուն (Canik) 27 դպրոցներ, 1.361 տղաները, 344 աղջիկներ, 1.705 ուսանողներ, 44 արական, 15 իգական, 59 ուսուցիչներ

     Shebinkarahisar: 27 դպրոցներ, 2.040 տղաները, 105 աղջիկներ, 2.145 ուսանողներ, 38 արական, իգական 4, 42 ուսուցիչներ

     Siirt: 3 դպրոցների, 163 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 84, 247 ուսանողներ, 9 արական, իգական 2, 11 ուսուցիչներ

     Սիս / Կիլիկիայում: 7 դպրոցներում, 476 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 165, 641 ուսանողներ, 15 արական, իգական 4, 19 ուսուցիչներ

     Sivas: 46 դպրոցներ, 4.072 տղաները, 459 աղջիկներ, 4.531 ուսանողներ, 62 արական, 11 իգական, 73 ուսուցիչներ

     Tokat: 11 դպրոցներ, 1.408 տղաները, 558 աղջիկներ, 1.966 ուսանողներ, 37 արական, 13 իգական, 50 ուսուցիչներ

     Տրապիզոն: 47 դպրոցներ, 2.184 տղաները, 718 աղջիկներ, 2.902 ուսանողներ, 72 արական, 13 իգական, 85 ուսուցիչներ

     Ուրֆայի: 8 դպրոցներում, 1.091 տղաները, 571 աղջիկներ, 1.662 ուսանողներ, 19 արական, իգական 7, 26 ուսուցիչներ

     Վան `21 դպրոցներ, 1.323 տղաները, 554 աղջիկներ, 1.877 ուսանողներ, 47 արական, 12 իգական, 59 ուսուցիչներ

     Yozgat: 12 դպրոցներ, 1.179 տղաները, 557 աղջիկներ, 1.736 ուսանողներ, 30 արական, 13 իգական, 43 ուսուցիչներ

     Զեյթուն `10 դպրոց, 605 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 85, 690 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

     Այս եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են կենդանի էակի արյուն էր Թուրքիայում: Այս շենքերը ականատես բազմաթիվ հայերի մկրտություններ, հարսանիքներից, թաղումներից եւ, նրանք ծառայել են որպես կրթական կենտրոններում, որտեղ ցանկանում տեղափոխվել ուսուցիչների գիտելիքներն են երեխաներին, եւ այդ շենքերի դարձան համայնքի հավաքը կենտրոններ ուրախ անգամ եւ սրբատեղիներ ընթացքում անհանգիստ ժամանակներում, մինչեւ դառը ավարտվելու է 1915 թ. Ինչպես հայերեն բնակչության ստացել wiped դուրս Անատոլիայի 1915 թվականին, այնպես էլ այդ եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ: Հետ միասին հարյուր հազարավոր տներ, խանութներ, տնտեսություն, պտղատու այգիներ, գործարանները, պահեստների, եւ հանքերի պատկանող հայերի, եկեղեցու եւ դպրոցների շենքերը նույնպես անհետացել են փոխարկվում կամ այլ օգտագործում. Եթե ​​այրված եւ ավերվել է 1915 թ. Բացահայտ կամ մնացել է վատթարանալ կողմից անփութության, նրանք դարձան փոխարկվում շենքերի բանկերի, ռադիոկայաններ, մզկիթներ, պետական ​​դպրոցների, կամ պետական ​​մենաշնորհ պահեստների համար ծխախոտի, թեյ, շաքար, եւ այլն, կամ պարզապես առանձնատներով եւ ախոռներ համար թուրքերի եւ քրդերի:

     Ներկայումս, դուրս է 34 ակտիվ հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում, միայն 6 մնացել են կանգնած են Անատոլիայում. Ամենամեծ Սուրբ Կիրակոս եկեղեցու այդ շենքերի Dikranagerd / Դիարբեքիրում, ամենամեծ հայերեն եկեղեցին Մերձավոր Արեւելքում, որն այժմ վերանորոգվում են որպես հայերեն եկեղեցին, իրավասության տակ Ստամբուլի պատրիարքարանի հայերեն. Գործընթացը կրկին պնդելով, ավելի քան 200 գործերի Կորցրած հողերի եւ գույքի պատկանող այս եկեղեցին նույնպես սկսվել. Նախագծի ֆինանսավորումը եւ շինարարական արդեն երկու – երրորդը ամբողջական, որի սպասվող եկեղեցու բացման եւ առաջին անգամ Սուրբ Պատարագ է, կատարվում է հոկտեմբերի 23, 2011 թ. Ներկայումս, ուխտագնացության շրջագայություններ են կազմակերպվում համար այս պատմական առիթով հետ մեկտեղ, այցելություններ այլ պատմական վայրերի Արեւելյան Թուրքիայում, օրինակ, Աղթամարի / Վան եւ Անի / Կարս, շարունակելով Հայաստան եւ Ջավախք: Ավելի շատ կլինեն այդ հայտարարությունները տուրեր մոտ ապագայում:

     Աղբյուրը `

     Zakarya Mildanoglu, Ակոս թերթի ապրիլի 22 – ին, 2011, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

     Օսմանյան հայերեն Ազգային խորհրդի տարեկան հաշվետվություններ 1910-1914, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

     Էջմիածին Journal, Երեւան, Հայաստան 1965-1966 բոլոր ամսագրերի

     Դոկտոր Հ. Համազասպ, հայերեն վանքեր Անատոլիայում, 9 ծավալները, Վիեննայի Մխիթարյան միությունը, 1940, Վիեննա, Ավստրիա

     Ռայմոնդ Գեւորգյանի եւ Փոլ Paboudjian, Les Arméniens dans L’կայսրության Օսմանյան à la veille du Հայոց ցեղասպանության (Հայերն Օսմանյան կայսրությունում Հայոց ցեղասպանության համար), Փարիզ, 1992 թ.

     Teotig Lapjinjian, Հայոց Koghkota (հայերեն Գողգոթա), 1923, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

     Vijagatsuyts, Kavaragan Azkayin Varjaranats Turkiyo, Dedr AB, Vicag 1901 Darvo (զեկույցը հայերեն դպրոցների Անատոլիայում (Թուրքիա), Բուկլետներ 1 – ին եւ 2, 1901 կարգավիճակից) հայերեն ազգային կրթության հանձնաժողովի Կենտրոնական տնօրինություն, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

     Սեւան Nishanyan, Adini Unutan Ulke (The երկիրն է, որ Մորացել իր անվանումը), Everest Press, 2010, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

     Reply

398. ragnar naess,  I always wondered what literature—primary or secondary—you, as (nominally) a third party observer, read to make the following irresponsible statement:  “it is fair to say that Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence.”  Do your readings into the subject include any other works than the ones by infamous McCarthy or Turkish distortionists? Or you read only a few dubious accounts that are in tune with your viewpoints? For instance, how can one interested in the subject not familiarize himself with Viscount Bryce’s A Summary of Armenian History up to and including the Year 1915? Bryce describes Armenians’ existence throughout the Ottoman centuries as follows: “They were not treated as citizens, because they were not even treated as men.” He states that “insecurity was the chronic condition of [Ottoman] Armenia”, that throughout centuries Armenians were considered rayah (‘cattle’, Tur.). Even when in the 19th century there occurred transformation from rayah to millet, Armenians, according to Bryce, have become “not yoke-oxen, but unshackled herds.” In all seriousness, whenever you read into the subject without prejudice (or even with prejudice knowing your favoritism towards the Turks), do you not come across this point repeated incessantly in many important foreign accounts?

     Reply

399. Once again….Armenians were still living on their own land after 5 – 6000 years!  If Armenians were ‘wealthy’, it was from the land, not from conquest. There is a big difference. Yes, Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule for quite a long time…no dispute there. They lived better than most subjugated peoples in other parts of the world. The question is….what happened in 1915?  Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?  Why did they turn against their most productive and loyal citizens?  This is the real question. Even the sultans didn’t go beserk in such a genocidal way, because they were smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication. But, the goons of the CUP did…tell us, why?  All the excuses offered really do not add up. They make no sense. I’m certain that intelligent Turks know this. Somehow, paid agents of the state keep pushing the same lame storyline in the western press, which shows that they will do anything for money – even lie about other people’s history and tragedy. These middlemen really need to be shamed for their dishonest behavior. Get rid of the ones carrying water for Turkey and this whole farce will dry up rather quickly.      

     Reply

400. “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule for quite a long time…no dispute there.” Well, there is dispute there, Karekin. Living well and be treated well are two different things. First of all, Armenians’ “well-being” was highly disproportional: while many urban Armenians were well-to-do, most of rural Armenians lived in poverty. When we say Turks appropriated our wealth by mass murdering and forcibly deporting our ancestors, we mean not only the actual wealth of the urban Armenians, but the properties of the rural population: their houses, their pastures, their cattle, their personal belongings, etc. But to say that “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule” is distorting. Those who lived “well”, mostly in the urban areas, secured their well-being not by the grace of Turks, but by their hard work, intrinsic wit, and industriousness. Nonetheless, for the Turks they were rayah and then millet: unprotected, voiceless, unrepresentative, and insecure. “Living well under the Ottoman empire” presupposes that the empire created favorable conditions for Armenians to live well. This is far from being the case. The only two “privileges” that Armenians had, were national language and restricted practice of religion. That Armenians were allowed to run businesses cannot be considered a favorable condition that Turks created for them, because, as you rightly stated, Turks were “smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication.” You forgot to add unbearably high taxes from the revenues of Armenian businesses.
      
     Re: “the question is what happened in 1915?” Well, it happened earlier, before the CUP. I hate it when some commentators here covertly or openly allude to ethnic composition of the CUP and put the blame on Ittihadists, conveniently forgetting that first mass murders of the Armenians, in which up to 300,000 Armenians perished, happened during the Sultan rule, not the CUP regime. This effectively explains that the genocidal insanity started earlier than 1915 and is not connected with the CUP only, but with the Turkish ghastly attitude towards the Armenians, in general.

     Reply

401. Sometimes the most obvious and simple answer is the right one.  You have heard it a million times already.

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402. DearGor, Iam glad you brought out Viscount Bryce’s notes.  Do you know the for instnace the famous “Khanasor Expedition” in Van, when the Arm. Revolutionary Federation left Van who were only there to protect the people from annihilations because the premediated murdering of the nation and the deportations has already started.  The Armenagans and the Henchagyans left the city to go to Persia and 800 unarmed civilians followed and went with them.  Although Tashnagtsoutyoun weren’t going to leave the city unarmed, but knowing the mind of the deceitful Seljuk Turks they send Bedo and 25 Fedayi      

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403. Gor jan, As my labtop is giving me problems to type, here goes the remainder of the “Khanasor Expedition” “Khanasori Arshavanke”:

     Tashnagtsoutyoun for protection they send Bedo with 25 Fedayis to run after the 800 unarmed civilian souls for protection when they were migrating to Persia to be able to save themselves from annihilations.  The Turkish Chieftain Sharaf Bey with his huge troops surrounded to attack Bedo and his 25 Fedayis who were in Saint Partholemeos Monastery, they fought and killed them.  Then they ran after the 800 unarmed Armenian civilians and murdered and annihilated everyone of them.

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404. gor
     I would like to return the question to you. What do you read? Bryce, which you mentioned, is hardly ever referred to in the historical literature, except for the fact that he worked with Arnold Toynbee in publishing the documents on the deportations and massacres in 1915-16. All documentation, handling of the material in that book is also the responsibility of Toynbee, not of Bryce. the chapter on history you mention, is that written by Bryce? Is it this one you are referring to? But if one reads the last comprehensive history of the Ottoman Empire, that of Caroline Finkel. which has received almost unanimous praise, I believe my characterization is correct, especially if you heed my qualification COMPARED TO OTHERS AT THE TIME and certainlyif one compares with the life of a reasonably well to do Norwegain or US citizen.  Jason Goodwin’s (1999)”Lords of the Horizons” I have not read for some time, but it gives about the same picture. Other general recent histories could be mentioned. But older European histories have often a general anti-turkish bias which is corrected today. This is not to deny that Armenians had problems. But we are then talking about the whole Ottoman period, arent we? Of course the end of the Armenian existence in Anatolia, the Armenian genocide, is quite something else. As I have repeated and repeated here, the Armenians have a just cause, but it is mistaken, although understandable, to see  the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of the events of 1915-16 and the expusion from and fleeing of Armenians from Anatolia?   

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405. If I were alive from say, 1500 – 1860, I think I would have much preferred to live life as an Ottoman Armenian instead of as a Russian or Chinese serf, a west African (who very well might have been sold into slavery and lived in chains) or a native American.  During that period of history, probably more than 75% of the population around the world lived as true slaves.  For most of those 450 years (double the age of today’s US), there was no democracy as we know it anywhere in the world – let’s not forget, even in the US, women couldn’t vote and only white men could own land.  Despite its flaws, Armenians were living in one of the most cosmopolitan and sophisticated societies on earth, and had been thriving under the Ottoman system, which offered protection. They were also the inheritors of the previous Urartian, Arab, Greek, Persian and to a degree, Roman legacies. Armenia/Anatolia was not a backward part of the world – it was the center of it for a very long time.  Armenia was on the silk route and goods, services and people from all cultures passed thru on a daily basis. If the Ottoman empire had not gone down the costly road of multiple wars, which bled the treasury into bankruptcy and causing pain which rippled across all the provinces, I suspect Abdul Hamid’s terror and the CUP’s insanity might have not happened.  The minorities, who actually did all the real work, felt the brunt of this more than anyone, as they, as always, were expected to solve the massive financial problems created by their rulers. The rulers decided to resort to theft, pillage and expropriation, in addition to mass murder, as a solution. It was a complete and total disaster for Armenians, Greeks and others, and to a lesser extent, those who identified themselves as ‘Turks’.  Survivors lost their family names, their written language, their native dress, their religion and even their traditional forms of music – and none of that was due to anything Armenians did !  So, in reality, Armenians cannot be blamed for any of it. It was all self-created by the Ottoman state, no matter who was running the show.

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406. Returning questions is not a very polite manner, ragnar naess, but I’ll answer, nonetheless. Yes, I meant Arnold Toynbee, “A Summary of Armenian History up to and Including the Year 1915,” in Viscount Bryce, preface, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-16: Documents presented to Viscount Grey of Fallodon, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs By Viscount Bryce (New York and London: G.P.Putnam’s Sons, for His Majesty’s Stationary Office, London, 1916). Note the year of the publication: 1916.  Bryce, a prominent British academic, jurist, historian, and politician, strongly condemned the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turks in 1915. Bryce was the first to speak on that subject in the House of Lords in July 1915 (note the date), and later–with the assistance of Arnold J. Toynbee–produced a documentary record of the massacres, published by the British government in 1916 as the Blue Book, one of the most objective and internationally acclaimed secondary source on the treatment of Armenian in the Ottoman empire and on the Armenian genocide of 1915.

     You dare to compare the Blue Book with a 2005 book Osman’s Dream, History of the Ottoman Empire 1300-1923 by Turkey-based author Caroline Finkel? For the record: Caroline Finkel has not received “almost unanimous praise” for her book. The only praise she has received was the 2006 “Woman of Distinction Award” from a group called “Daughters of Atatürk”, an annual title bestowed by this Turkish group on those who have “demonstrated vision, leadership, innovation and professionalism” in “giving their talents to the international Turkish community”, read: produced a Turkic-centric account. Smells rather fishy, doesn’t it?
      
     Re: “It is mistaken to see the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of the events of 1915-16.” Two blunders in one sentence. The mistreatment of Armenians and other Christian groups in the Ottoman empire was not a single event, it was a process that resulted in their near-total physical extermination by the Turks. Turkophiles often conveniently forget that before, as you say, the “events” of 1915-1916 (incorrect: genocide of Armenians lasted from 1915 up until 1923 after the last pocket of Armenians in Smyrna has been annihilated in 1922), there were several instances that preceded the genocide, namely: the Hamidian massacres of 1894-96 and massacres of Adana of 1909. These massacres unmistakably show the pattern. Armenian genocide was not a single crime taken out of the context of the life of Armenians under the Turkish yoke, it was the culmination of centuries-long mistreatment by the Turks.

     I have an advantage as compared to Turkophiles. My grandfather whose family left a village in Sasoun after the Hamidian massacres for Ardahan, then a Russian province, use to describe in length what hard, miserable, and insecure life they lived in their village fearing Muslim bands’ pogroms and thefts. No Turkophile will ever convince me in the opposite, because in addition to many scholarly accounts on the subject, I have a survivor account, recorded and documented as such.
      
     If Turkophiles prefer to “live life as an Ottoman Armenian” it’s not late, I believe. Let them go a Western Armenian village, now inhabited by Kurds and Turks, declare that they’re Armenians and see what luxury and secure life they’ll be living there even today.

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407. Karekin,   would you like to explain to the readers as to why you keep stressing the CUP regime that perpetrated the genocide of Armenians (who otherwise “lived well under Ottoman rule”), while conveniently omitting  the Hamidian massacres and distorting the historical truth with phrase such as: “Even the sultans didn’t go berserk in such a genocidal way.” Do you know anything about the Hamidian massacres in which up to 300,000 Armenians were subjected to a genocidal extermination? Then, I guess, the question is not “What happened in 1915? Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?” The question is “What happened earlier in 1894-96? Why did the Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II’s regime fall into genocidal insanity?”
      
     P.S.  Russian or Chinese serfs, living on their ancestral lands, were not made millets by some dominant ethnic group, were not subjected to pillages, murders, and abductions by a third ethnic/religious group, and were not in several instances methodically exterminated as a race by a third ethnic group. Huge difference in case someone doesn’t see the obvious.

     To Seervart:   Thanks for your addition. Of course, I know about the “Khanasor Expedition”.

     Reply

408. After a brief interlude, and softening of the targets, the  siren song of the alleged  golden age of Ottoman Empire returns. The allegations in this most recent post are no different than the previous ones. And said allegations were answered extensively and convincingly multiple times by multiple posters on multiple threads. One of the examples given was the intellectual and high-office achievements of Armenians in their relatively  short period  in the Russian Tsarist Empire, compared to Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
      
      
     The magnificence of  the  ancient Armenian city of Ani and the fact that it rivaled Constantinople in its day should be enough to disabuse  anyone who thinks Armenians needed Ottoman Turk overlords to achieve anything.
      
      
     Armenians did relatively well, such as it is, in the Ottoman Empire  not because of  it, but despite of it.
     We can’t rewind time, so we cannot definitively know what would have happened if Seljuk Turks had stayed in their original homeland, and Armenia and Armenians had had the luxury of uninterrupted  natural progression.
      
      
     But we can extrapolate. Turks had a run of the country without Armenians and other Christians since about 1920s.Turkey was known as the sick man of Europe for decades. Even with massive help from the wealthy West since Turkey joined NATO, it was mired in poverty and backwardness for decades.
     Even today, aside from the parts near Christian Europe, rest of it is stuck where it was decades ago. Large areas are not much better than medieval times.
      
      
     Any development and advancement that Turks naturally ascribe to themselves is thanks to their  close proximity to wealthy, advanced, benevolent Europe.
     Most of the modern industrial factories that produce industrial and consumer goods in Turkey were designed and built by Europeans, mostly Germans.
     Turks have unfettered access to the wealthy markets of Europe, and the rest of  wealthy West. Turks have unfettered access to the advanced technology of the West.
      
      
     When Armenia was part of the  Soviet Union, Armenian SSR was one of the most advanced and  prosperous of 15 republics, despite all 15 republics being treated more or less equally by the Soviet authorities. The education system was second to none.  The leaders, scientists, industrialists, artists, businessmen Armenia produced were way out of proportion to their share of the population of USSR.
      
      
     Even with the devastation of the massive earthquake with the loss of anywhere from 25,000 (official) to 50,000 (unofficial) population base, the devastating war for survival that consumed enormous human and materiel resources of the tiny republic, even with the transportation blockade, even with enormous resources being expended today to ward off invasion by Azeris, Armenia is doing remarkably well for its short 20 year life.
      
      
     Is there any doubt that if left alone, historic Armenia would not rival Europe in advancement and prosperity ?

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409. Ragnar Naess:    —-You state: “Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence if you compare with other groups.”  Please enlighten as to what “other groups” led a worse life than Armenians during the Ottoman centuries? Humiliating millet regulations were roughly identical for all religious minorities: Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, and Armenians. So, what “other groups” lived worse than Armenians?  Curiously,  K

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410. Sireli hayrenagitses Gor,now I see where you got that dzour damar of yours.I am Sassountsi as well & from both sides.Our family history is quite similar to yours.The majority of my family(both sides)were massacred & some of the remnant survivors ended up in Russian Armenia where they still live on the slopes of mount Aragats & the other survivors ended up in Syria.
     In our Shgharshig village in Armenia our family still bury their dead overlooking towards our Yergir.

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411. Look, no argument about the Hamidian massacres…my family suffered under that as well. Of course, we know what caused him to go off the cliff, and it was nationalist activity and the sense that Armenians would go the down the same road as the Greeks. Yes, it was horrible and started the exodus from the empire in a big way…people got the message…however, by 1914, all the Armenian political parties were actually working with and negotiating with the CUP, to some degree. The CUP is brought up because they were the ones who decided to rid Turkey of its Armenians…completely. Yes, Abdul Hamid murdered several hundred thousand…no small thing, but it pales in comparison to the genocide. Think of the apparatus that was needed to carry out their plan?  This wasn’t some random, spur of the moment action…it was very well thought out and planned. As sinister as Abdul Hamid was, the CUP was evil to the core. That’s why I bring it up, and…many of their accomplices were rewarded during the republican period, right up to today. It is their legacy that still haunts Turkey and Armenians, not Abdul Hamid’s.  They changed Turkey for the worst…in a very big way.  

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412. Oh Avery jan.. EXCELLENT post.. EXCELLENT.. Your question “is there any doubt that if left alone, historic Armenia would nt rival Europe in advancement and prosperity? is absolutely right on the money.. because we ALL know (including the world’s notorious denialists like Murat, Anodolu, Necati, Monastras and a like who believe in their sick heads that Turks were send to this planet from God to be Armenians’ saviours) that the answer to your question is a HUGE YES…

     This is why Turkey is running like a chicken with its head cut off trying to do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING (literally) to stop any recognition, any awareness, any advancement in exposing what happened and how Turkey got to be where she is now.. When one does not feel what they have was obtained by an honest way, when one feels threatened by simple truth, one allows the world to see the insecurity and fear in them.. and that is exactly what Turks are doing and it is getting more and more obvious.. they are afraid of losing whats NOT THEIRS… who would not right???

     Avery you are absolutely right.. if the Ottomans did not commit the Genocide (and thank you Gor for pointing out the pattern started not just in 1915 but from 1894-1909 until 1923) Armenia not only would have been as great and powerful as Europe but it would have turned Turkey’s existance to almost non-existance…

     and NO Monastras Khanum, not by killing off all the Turks as you suggested in one of your posts…where you said you FEEL we would do that if we had our lands back (such a dramatization on your part.. especially on your part..)  but with our intellect, wealth, position and everything else we possessed and would have multiplied 10 times over if we were left alone…PLUS Turks back then did not even have a country but their lonely mountains..

     So I say try your hardest to change history, or make up your own history, try to smir the names of all who were brutally murdered by your ancestors by belittling and lying through your teeth.. nothing will change the fact that Turks are hiding in their dark closets away from the truth…. Turks can’t provide facts, and examples what Turkey as a whole and on individual level contributed to society back in the days and now days even if…but guess what??? there ARE PLENTY OF facts and enourmous list showing the contirbutions of ARmenians around the world …nothing will change the fact that Turks were and are still guilty of Red Genocide and White Genocide..  So stop this cry me a river BS and get with the program because to be honest with you it is getting old.. hence, why the annoyance… but never the violence.. Armenians are not violent people.. even though you denialists would like to MAKE US as such.. but guess what??? ain’t going to work..  

     Peace…

     Gayane   

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413. Murat you said:

     Murat
     August 25, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Sometimes the most obvious and simple answer is the right one.  You have heard it a million times already.

     So why are you denialists keep repeating the same thing over and over.. You have heard the truth million times over already… the obvious and simple answer is the right one indeed… The Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians is the right answer…recognition, and repayment is another of them right answers..very simple.. 

       It is too bad that my ancestors are not here to speak for themselves…but i know they won’t rest and they will hunt those who belittle their existance and their death forever… and I for one will never stop speaking on behalf of them.. so keep on fighting the battle you will never win Murat and the rest of you denialists…  

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414. Karekin– Gor is not saying 1915 was less important than 1894-1896 or 1909.. He was pointing out that ALL massacres NEED TO BE MENTIONED to show progression, a pattern of these horrible Turkish tribes.. it was not JUST 1915…evil was their middle name no matter how small or big their job was.. period…

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415. Sassoun.. such a powerful word.. You sure can feel the strength and patriotism pouring out of it.. word.. it project mightiness, Godly…and that is how our warriors were… mernem yes irants janin….

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416. Then I believe things must be called by their correct names. The 1915 genocide of Armenians was not a sole episode in the ghastly history of Western Armenians, nor was the CUP regime the only Turkish regime that fell into genocidal insanity. A pattern of deliberate physical extermination of Armenians must be always made crystal clear, just as the ICTJ resolution did. One who sees the pattern and who’s aware of the insecure and miserable lives of most of the Ottoman Armenians (especially in rural areas) must think twice before making irresponsible statements, such as: “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule” or “Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence.”

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417. I sometimes feel that you are about to touch what the real problem was but you carry on talking  Hamidiye, CUP etc. The nationalism age started in the 17. century and gradualy engulfed the entire region. Turks never thought that we couldn’t think about this what a lovely idea. They fought every inches in the vast areas they lost. Armenians was no different. But they didn’t realize that they have a special position. They shared the same homeland. Obviously, Whoever run the management, whoever numerous and stronger kicked the other one out. If the same argument is still valid today, the same arguments will be repeated again and again

      

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418. Don’t dance around the issue writing in riddles so you can weasel out of it later. It’s B&W. Do you affirm or do you retract – with apology  – your post below:

     {Guest – Monastras 
     2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
     (posted @Hurriyet)
     
     Yes or No ?
      
      

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419. Monastras….you made no sense whats so ever.. please try to put your thoughts in a more coeherent manner so we know what you are talking about, what you are referring to.. ect.. throwing words just to throw words is not beneficial….. 

     in any case: this sentence written by you says:  “Obviously, Whoever run the management, whoever numerous and stronger kicked the other one out”….. you know that by this sentence ALONE you just admitted that your barbaric ancestors committed the Genocide toward the less numerous, less stronger in arms, and less powerful to manage the empire …..Greeks Assyrians and especially Armenians…thank you…

     But the truth of the matter is and a VERY VERY VERY  embarassing for you and all your denialists population is that your ancestors were cowards and low lives to murder almost an entire population by stripped them of everything before they did it….. they did not fight like real men.. they were chicken s*(*%(*$#(*$(#* for doing what they did…. having weakened the ARmenians to the extent where no men were kept alive, every weapon confiscated and women, children and elderly driven to the dessert with only their clothes on their back.. such cowardace act on your ancestors part….they knew very well that Armenians would have fought until the end…but they did not want to face them like real men against men…which is why they organized such a large compaigne to break down the Armenians before murdering, raping, mutilating, and burning them….. your coward ancestors did everything to disarm and disperse the ARmenian communities because that way it was easier to control and kill… if I was a Turk i would be embarassed… i would bury my face in shame knowing my blood line is attached to not only barbarians but coward barbarians…sad..  

     Gayane

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420. Avery jan– have you noticed that when you put their own words right back in their mouth and in front of their face, they come back with nothing… no reaction … it is like what we presented is not their own words… typical of them… not surprised…

     Monastras will continue to ignore the question because just like her own govt who for years continued to ignore the BIG FAT ELEPHANT in the room, the acknolwedgement of the Genocide, she would do the same.. not to fess up and stand behind her words..  

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421. Dear Gor, I am not surprised that you know about Khanasor Expedition as Armenians from our Motherland are usually very well read indeed and you certainly are a very good specimen of the intelligent and the well read individuals.  Of course several others in here as well make me much proud to be Armenian; bunch of well read and superbly intelligent people you are.  I am sorry for your family and VTiger’s family.  What Armenian doesn’t have similar heartbreaking stories after the Armenian Genocide?  We all do unfortunately.  Indeed before the Armenian Genocide my father told me that in Palu where he was brought up, they used to call “Meds Charte” for the Hamidian Massacres when the Red Sultan Abdul Hamid annihilated 300,000 Armenian civilians from 1894-1896.  As you and I know my dear that even much before 1894 the annihilations, the pillaging and the persecutions were constant and ongoing; that’s why our great writers and poets used to cry in their literature and wish to see the freedom of Armenia so that the people would start breathing air and not death nor live in sheer fright of dying every day of their lives.  Writers such as Raffi (Hagop Melik Hagopian) and Khatchadour Abovian in his “Verk Hayasdani”.   I would also like to remind or tell Karekin, that ever since the Seljuk Mongolian tribes came from the Mongolian steppes of the Altai mountains to our Westermn Armenian Highlands since the 1050’s, the pillaging, the murdering, the persecutions and the annihilations never stopped.  They were constant and ongoing against all the Armenian people in Western Armenia.

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422. That’s right Gayane.  Ms Monastas pretends that whatever I posted is not there.
     It’s OK. I don’t mind. I have infinite patience. A couple of other Denialists tried that to on me: didn’t work. (No  need to mention  any names, but you know who they are.)
      
     As long as my fingers can press a key on my keyboard, I’ll keep reminding
     Ms. Monastras. If I am away,  you will remind her, or one of  our other compatriots will.
      
     Best thing for her to do is make a stand right here @AW: either post “Yes, I wrote it and have no regrets”, or “Yes, I wrote it, but I regret it, I apologize”.
      
     We can then have a Reset: she can thereafter debate to her heart’s content with other Armenian or guest posters. She has stated she loves AW, so it should be an easy choice for her. (I am guessing she appreciates the excellent commenting platform AW provides, and not necessarily Armenian-centric articles).
      
     Otherwise – no deal: I’ll keep re-posting her @Hurriyet comment for all to see.

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423. Monastras, I have to admit that I have some trouble with your English above.  I think you are trying to say that Turks were also feeling the pangs of nationalism just as others of the time, and unfortunately for Armenians they wanted the same land that Armenians wanted; and since they were in charge, more numerous and had a stronger militia, the Turks won the battle for the land.  Is that what you meant?
      
     Perhaps, you and many Turks tell yourselves this as a way of suggesting that Armenians and Turks were mere combatants on opposite sides of a war.  Maybe it makes it easier to think that we were just having a  fair and square fight and the Armenians lost.   Maybe it makes it seem less awful than to acknowledge that the CUP/Turks systematically disarmed the Armenian men, separated them from the their families, forced them into work battalions (or worse) where most died, then ordered all the women, children and elderly to abandon their homes and to go on foot marches to the Syrian desert where they also perished.  Maybe you overlook the fact that innocent women and children, who were no threat to the Turks, (especially those from villages nowhere near the battlefronts), were cruelly starved, raped and murdered.  Maybe you look at these facts and feel proud of the shrewdness of those who won Anatolia for the Turks.  Maybe you concede that it is sad that the Armenians lost, but tell yourself that all is fair in war.  And besides, the Armenians gave the Turks no choice since some Armenians near the borders were siding with the enemy.  Armenians should just accept their defeat and move on.  Is this what you think?
      
     Well, if you do, you have much in common with genocide deniers who justify the inhuman acts organized and carried out by the CUP against the Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire.  But these were not acts of war.  They were acts carried out under the cover of war.  They were an extension of a long standing policy of suppression and aggression against Armenians who had begun to assert their right to self-determination and express demands to be treated equally under the law as the CUP had promised.  They were  acts of pan-turkic fanaticism.  And they were ultimately acts that would later be named ‘genocide’ by Raphael Lemkin and condemned by the nations of the world.
      
      
      

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424. gor
     No, the praise on the backside of Finkels book is much broader than a praise of turkophiles. And you go on talking about the situation of Armenians after the brakedown of the Kurdish amira system, which of course created problems in the traditional armenian lands and all over the area covered by the Kurds, whereas the theme was Armenian life in the Ottoman Empire more general. The brakedown of the Kurdisk system, due to centralization efforts on the part of the Ottoman government, created by the way problems for everybody except the powerful, rule of law diminished and the road was opened to the predators. But will you not say anything about the time before 1850 and about the situation of Armenians in cities before 1895? 

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425. Earlier by Gor
      Are you ready, Anadolu? Here I come. 

     “Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier
     some “Before Turks arrived, there was war as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian
     wars over Anatolia.”  — Those wars didn’t bring destruction at a scale remotely reminiscent to what nomadic Turks brought to the region. Also, at those times there was no such a
     toponym as Anatolia. This is a Turkish creation to indicate a part of Asia Minor and, especially, replace the Armenian Highland (or Plateau) where Armenians have lived for millennia with this cooked-up term.
     Gor
     What a nonsense, war’s bring always destruction. Radical anti Turks claim that nomadic Turks brought devastation. First of all the Seljuk’s were not nomadic, but a highly civilized and through Arabian and Persian culture mixed vast empire. After the Seljuk’s won the battle against the Byzantines in Manazkirt 1071. This defeat was not a military disaster for Byzantine but a political disaster with the capture of the emperor, his testimony by Doukas and civil war that follows. It is this civil war that squandered the financial and military resources of the empire, leaving Asia
     Minor defenseless against continual incursions of Turks. Here also a short story to the captured Greek emperor. When he was brought to Alparslan, he was asked what his fate would be and the Greek emperor replied as it’s custom, I might get killed or be imprisoned. But for his surprise he was set free and to be returned to Istanbul (Constantinople), after arriving in Costantinople the Greek emperor was at once killed. (either through a mob or through his political rivals). So please see some different history about the Turks, though its not pleasant for Turk haters. And further to your claim of Turkish devastation see also following historical facts.

     1022 : Basileios II annexed Armenian
     territories in the Byzantine Empire and 40.000 Armenians were deported to
     Anatolia. (Armenians being deported by Byzantines, I ask myself why?)

     1046: The Armenian sovereigns were killed by Byzantine
     Emperor Constantine IX. ( I guess it was because of the so called alien barbaric turks )

     1054: Seljukian Sultan Tugrul Bey gave the Armenians autonomy. (no can’t be
     true, it’s to barbaric)

     1098: The Armenians collaborated with the Crusaders (ok, never mind that’s
     normal due to same religion)

     1461: Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror invited Armenian Bishop Hovakim to
     Istanbul and he was honoured by the title of “Patriarch”. Later some privileges
     were given to the Armenians.(no, no please that’s just to barbaric )

     Stop you hatred against Turks.

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426. oh boy, oh boy: can’t wait for the broadside from Gor.

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427. Anadolu, you have made some interesting points, but your final comment reveals a problem. 
     You are confusing anger and frustration with hatred.  I do not hate Turks and I teach my children not to hate Turks.  I know few Armenians who claim to hate Turks.  In my circle, most Armenians easily express the understanding that modern day Turks know only bits and pieces of the truth, some tainted by government propaganda.  We do not blame everyday Turks for the actions that eliminated the Armenians from over 80% of their homeland. 
      
     But ask us how it feels to know that our ancestors who once flourished in the Armenian Highlands were systematically and forceably deported, massacred and left to die in a desert or be scattered all around the world.  Ask us how it feels to know your ancestors were forced to abandon their homes, lands, crops, livestock, businesses, school and churches to Turkish and Kurdish looters and squatters.  And not just from a village or two, or even ten, but an entire homeland… Ask us how it feels that a population of over 3 million Armenians in 1914 now number only a fraction of that when natural growth patterns of the last century would have predicted multiple doublings by now.   Ask how it feels to have architectural marvels built by your ancestors, which are admired round the world, denied their proper names and designated as Turkish wonders for tourists to enjoy.   Your history is denied, your culture usurped, your identity trampled.
      
     Then ask yourself how it must feel to know all of this and then hear the government of Turkey deny it and to imprison, fine and even kill those who speak the truth.   How would you feel?
      

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428. “No, the praise on the backside of Finkel’s book is much broader than a praise of turkophiles.” Please support your argument, ragnar naess.  The only praise for Osman’s Dream, History of the Ottoman Empire 1300-1923 (whose author, Caroline Finkel, is actually based in Turkey) I was able to find was the 2006 “Woman of Distinction Award” from a group called “Daughters of Atatürk.” It’s a Turkish group not a group of Turkophiles. Turkish to the bones. I don’t know, for a common observer this fact alone would speak volumes as to why a Turkish group would praise a non-Turkish author.
      
     I said no word in any of my comments above about the situation of Armenians after the breakdown of the Kurdish amira system. Please refrain from ascribing something that was never said by an author.
     

     “But will you not say anything about the time before 1850 and about the situation of Armenians in cities before 1895?”   What exactly would you like me to say? Be precise, please. I guess you want me to say that if Armenians were not exterminated en masse before 1894 it means they might have “led a fairly good life”? Is this the amplitude that your intellectual abilities fit into? If Armenians were not exterminated en masse then they might have lived fairly well? Is this it? Shall I remind here about the humiliating rayah and millet serfdoms under which Christians and Jews lived after their colonization by Turks beginning the 15th century onwards?

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429. I admit that my comment seemed a little bit incoherent but I guess It has been understood by most people. Remember, we aren’t equal here.There are restrictions for us.So I am planning to code my posts in the future for this reason, however, I managed to express my opinion comprehensively in the past. over all, It is a good site to exchange various opinions.
     I am tempted to release all my poison about the ancient civilizations in the ME but It will attract   hundreds of more comments So I will refrain from doing it.

     Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. 

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430. I’ll start from the end, Anadolu, from your false accusation that I’m filled with hatred against Turks.  I don’t hate Turks. I believe my mental abilities allow me to differentiate between modern-day Turks and their Ottoman/CUP predecessors. You’re confusing righteous indignation for the genocide against a whole nation with hatred. Or you’re accusing Armenians of hatred deliberately in an attempt to open Armenians up to condemnation. Whatever your motives are, remember this once and for all: we don’t hate modern-day Turks. We may despise your denialist state and your distortionist governments, but not ordinary Turkish citizens. By the way, stating historical facts and calling things by their names, for instance, that Seljuks were originally nomadic tribes or that Ottoman Turks brought destruction to the vast geographic area up to the gates of Vienna, must not be taken as an expression of hate. In order to justify savage annihilation of unarmed men, women, children, and elders, modern Turkish government and scholars accuse all Armenians—defenseless, rural, unorganized, and even the unborn whom Turks ripped off the wombs of their mothers–with collaborating with the Russians, but we don’t take this as a demonstration of hatred. We take it as a result of methodical brainwashing so successfully achieved by your government propaganda and school textbooks.
      
     Let me now move on to your historical “facts”.
      
     First of all, re: “Seljuk’s were not nomadic, but a highly civilized and through Arabian and Persian culture mixed vast empire.” I don’t know what they teach you at schools, but in this age of the Internet and sophisticated communications technology it shouldn’t be so hard to conduct an independent research to know that the origins of the Seljuks were, in fact, nomadic. They roamed as nomads over a vast region, which today lies in the Altay mountains and Mongolian steppes. Prior to the 9th century AD, hordes of Turks had crossed the Volga River into the Black Sea steppes. Then, in the 9th century, they lived north of the Caspian and Aral seas, in the Kazakh steppe of Central Asia. In the 10th century, the Seljuks migrated from their ancestral homeland into mainland Persia, in the province of Khurasan, where they mixed with the local population and adopted the Persian culture and language in the following decades, since, as tent-living nomads, they had no culture of their own. It is an offense to the mainstream historiography to claim that Seljuks were “highly civilized” people. For your knowledge, “highly civilized” people leave traces in history, such as structures, writings, laws, artifacts, etc., as did the Sumerians, Egyptians, Indians, the Chinese, etc. What did the Seljuks leave behind them? Nothing. Only blood and destruction brought upon sedentary peoples. Seljuks started gaining remotely civilized traits only after intermingling with the Persians and Arabs and after stealing cultural achievements of these peoples, mostly in language, architecture, cuisine, social customs, etc.
      
     Wars always bring devastation, but for the civilized Western world the 1071 Battle of Manzikert, waged between the Byzantine Empire and Seljuk Turks led by Alp Arslan, was not just another war. It was a defense attempt against Seljuk intruders, whose homeland was nowhere near Asia Minor. The defeat of the Byzantine army and the capture of the Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes played a tragic role in undermining Byzantine authority in Asia Minor and Armenia that allowed alien Turks to gradually populate the region bringing destruction, population changes, religious conversions, and cultural thefts to the native peoples and, later on, paved the way for the emergence of Ottoman Turks that led to the  fall of the Christian capital of the world, Constantinople, and colonization of the indigenous peoples into millets. Therefore, you’re wrong in that the Battle of Manzikert “was not a military disaster for Byzantine.” Not only was it a military disaster, but it soon proved to be a grand disaster for the whole Western world. Thank you, at least, for admitting that there actually were “continual incursions of Turks.” I hope you’ll understand the major point of concern of indigenous peoples of Asia Minor: Turks never belonged in the region.
      
     Some of the historical facts that you brought are known, others are just rubbish. But all of them don’t essentially disprove that it were Seljuk and Ottoman Turks who, in fact, brought major grief and devastation to the natives of Asia Minor.
      
     That there occasionally were tensions between the Byzantines and Armenians (mostly around a religious interpretation issue) leading to plots, riots, and assassinations on both sides, we know. But we also know that several of the Byzantine Emperors were genuine ethnic Armenians; that the armies of the two states often cooperated in fending off invaders; and that the two ancient nations abundantly enriched each other’s culture.
      
     That the period of Seljuk invasions of Armenia was one of chaos, accompanied by widespread destruction of human life and property, we know. What we don’t seem to know is that a Seljuk invader Tughril Bey gave the Armenians autonomy(?!). In 1040 two Seljuk Oghuz brothers, Tughril Bey and Chagri Bey, conquered the Ghaznavid kingdom of Iran and established the Seljuk empire. In 1047, Tughril formed an army of 100,000 Turkmens from Persian Khurasan to invade Armenia. Thus from the mid-1040s to about 1063, detachments of Turks, controlled by Seljuk sultans, penetrated deeper into Armenia, destroying numerous cities and devastating entire districts. What we didn’t know is that, based on Turkish mentality, an army was formed by Tughril Bey not to invade Armenia, but to generously bring Armenians an autonomy. If Armenians were given autonomy by the Seljuk Turks in 1054, as you claim, why then ungrateful Armenians organized resistance to Seljuk invasions in Baiburt in 1054, Malatia and Colonea in 1057, and in Sebastia (Sivas) in 1059 before Tughril was succeeded by his nephew Alp Arslan who would then capture ancient Armenian city of Ani in 1064?

     That Alp Arslan set the Byzantine Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes free, we know. But we also know the motives for such an unusual Turkish “mercy.” After the Battle of Manzikert,  Arslan at first had difficulty believing the dusty and tattered warrior broughtbefore him was Emperor. He then stepped down from his seat and placed his foot on Romanos’ neck. After this sign of ritual Turkish humiliation, Arslan released him in exchange for a peace treaty and the promise of a hefty ransom of 10,000,000 nomismata.
      
     That Sultan Mehmed II brought Hovagim I from Bursa to Constantinople in 1461, we know. But in addition to this seemingly “generous” Turkish act we also know that after Constantinople fell to Ottoman Turks in 1453, the Armenian Patriarchate came to care more directly for all Orthodox Christians living in the Ottoman empire. Hovagim I was brought to Constantinople solely with a political purpose: Mehmed II wanted Armenian-Greek separation as Constantinople had become the center of their ecclesiastical and national life. As part of Mehmed’s ploy, he wanted the Armenian patriarch of Constantinople, and not the Catholicos of Mother Church Etchmiadzin, to be the Armenians’ most important national dignitary. Because the largest Armenian community in the world lived in Constantinople at the time, the civil-ecclesiastical authority of the Armenian patriarch would have made the Sultan practically the most powerful official among the Armenians at large.
      
     You know why you have such a linear viewpoint about Seljuk destruction and Ottoman colonization of native peoples of Asia Minor? Because you simply copy and paste distortions from Turkish Internet sites. No effort is made at doing your own research.
      
     Lastly, you seem to be offended by the word “barbarian” that some Armenians use when describing Turkish behavior. It is not directed at modern-day Turks. But the ghastly behavior of your Ottoman and Ittihadist predecessors towards non-Turk human beings is, without doubt, nothing less than barbarism. Visit the websites depicting the horrors of Turkish mass murders and humiliations of Greeks, Assyrians, and especially Armenians, and I hope you’ll understand what I mean.

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431. ragnar naess,   normally, we find praises on the backside of virtually any book, not just Frinkel’s. Their main goal being to make a profitable sale. However, praises on the backside of any book do not necessarily imply that the book has actually “received almost unanimous (emphasis mine) praise,” as you claim.

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432. For Gor and Ragnar, here are a couple of reviews of Finkel’s book, Osman’s Dream, which are easily obtained from the Amazon website and may be of interest to potential Armenian readers:
      
     “…While this book provides a rather quick paced narrative for a large span of history, its divergence from established historical fact regarding the Armenian Genocide is so blatant as to border on propaganda. While the author spends a short amount of time on the issue, admitting that “some” atrocity took place, her views completely run counter to a vast amount if well established research. Given the significance of mass murder and her attempts to belittle the issue, I cannot in good conscience recommend this book.”
      
     and this one:
      
     “…Eyebrows may be raised by her treatment of the Armenian genocide. She seems to say there may have been some atrocities but maybe not as extensive as alleged. But her explanation of what happened to the victims is very brief. Sure she covers over 500 years of history in 550 pages. But if she is going to write something long, she ought to go even longer, as the topic of a genocide is one that demands more explanation. “
      
     The book has received mixed reviews.  I plan to read Finkel’s book despite the mixed reviews.  I am sure I will learn something about the Ottoman period and perhaps I will also learn something more about the current blend of pseudo-objective Turkish Ottoman scholarship.   As an Armenian, I am aware of the need to be careful not to read books about the Ottoman period with too parochial an eye, but given Finkel’s close ties with Turkey I will also have my propaganda radar turned on. 

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433. Unfortunately, this discourse has become one of extremes with extremes. There’s no need for this. We are, like it or not, all Anatolians.  Armenians have lived under many political systems and configurations since time immemorial, but as an indigenous people with thousands of years of settle history in one place, they developed a multitude of skill sets that were used and appreciated by their conquerors. Let’s not forget – Armenian stonemasons designed and built every single Seljuk masterpiece known in Anatolia – most of which are magnificent. Armenians also gave the Ottoman Empire geniuses like Sinan, whose work is among the most beautiful in the world and the Balyans, who built palaces and mosques for the sultans.

     Armenians did this work because they had the depth of knowledge and the skill that comes from many centuries of experience, from well before the Urartian period right until the late 19th C. (As a comparison, think of the US….it would be like having a native American design and build the capitol building in Washington, DC. But, we know that could have never happened.)  In between, they built cities like Ani, which was on the silk road, and Dikranagert (Diyarbekir) and they prospered as a result.  Yes, they lived under a system that would not seem fair, moral or righteous today, but we must and should compare apples with apples, not with bananas. For most of history, Armenians were not a minority at all in Turkey, in fact, they outnumbered Turks. They did well because it was, in fact, their country…they were not living in a foreign land. They may not have been running the state or the army, but they were living on their own soil, and provided the practical intelligence that allowed society to function. All their rulers knew this and took advantage of it. 

     But, that’s all part of history.  Above all, if todays Turks want Armenians to respect them, they must also give respect to those who gave their lives to build their empire over many centuries. This is what’s missing.  They must acknowledge Armenian contributions, not hide them.  Whatever they have today is directly connected – not just to the theft and genocide that took place in 1915, but to what happened in 915, 615 and well before. Just a little bit of gratitude, and yes, an apology, for what was appropriated just 95 years ago, would go a very long way and would open the door to a more civilized discussion.  I believe that it is possible, but can only happen if people can pull back from their extreme positions and thus allow other avenues of thought to develop.

       

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434. Hi Karekin, I’ve found myself agreeing with a lot more of your comments recently, but I would like to ask you to be more specific regarding the ‘extremes’ you feel people are falling into.

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435. Anatolian?  Not if that means second class millet Turkt.  Yes, if that means indigenous inhabitant of Asia Minor and Armenian Plateau.

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436. Nope, we are not Anatolians. We are Armenian Highlanders- Armenians who have existed on Armenian Highlands for about 5,000 years. Seljuk Turks invaded from Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains regions about 1,000 years ago.

     We are Armenian Highlanders. We are not Anatolians.

     Seljuk Turks are and their progeny are nothing like us. 

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437. 30-gun broadside signed, sealed, and delivered.

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438. Monastras, who are you kidding?  A little bit incoherent? 
     It looks like the work of two completely different Monastras.

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439. Monastras, I missed this earlier:
      
     “Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. “
      
     Again a bit hard to understand.  Are you asking why the German general public escapes being called uncivilized barbarians, but Turkish general public does not?
     First, no one thinks that the general Turkish public is barbarian.  There is no hatred toward an everyday Mehmet.  There is anger at the general Turkish ignorance and the government’s deliberate distortion and denial of the truth.  Germans admitted their guilt and paid reparation and regained there status among nations.  That is the simple difference.  Turks should stop feeling so insulted by the truth and take an honest look at history and the crime their nation has yet to come to terms with.  It really is that simple.  
     Thanks for the chance to say this again.  I am happy to repeat it every time a Turk suggests Armenians are “haters.”   How much more hateful is it to deport, massacre and murder innocent people just because they happen to share a certain nationality with some freedom fighters who are giving the government trouble?  The vast majority of Armenians were loyal Ottomans.  They had to be or risk their families safety.

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440. Avery jan you are hillarious.. I LOVED YOUR PAST COMMENT because I agree 100%..:)  Oh by the way Avery jan.. you bet your brillant self, I will remind Monastras.. Her brilliant blunder will never be forgotten and will always be reminded…

     Gor jan..JAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN….- xosq chunem… yes apshats em miaym… thank you…

     no denialist on these pages nor around the world can stand against your intellect and knowledge…. if  I was one of them denialists, i would feel sooooooooooo dumb and embarassed right now that i would not dare to open my stupid mouth again..lol. truly an excellent post… apres.. du im herosnes…  

     Boyajian jan– as always you are definintely a great writer… love your style..:)

     Anadolu Pasha- so how does it feel to know that what you try to throw up on these pages will NEVER be allowed… lies and distortion on our pages WILL NEVER be allowed…  

     Ragnar– give it up my man.. please do find yourself another hobby because obviously Armenian history is not working for ya… thank you.. have a great life…

     Monastras– i would suggest you talk with Robert (he is a Turk as well) who was as notoriously deniar as yoursel but recently relized (and I am very happy for him..truly appreciate it) that living in a lie and being cruel and continue denial is not a way to treat Armenians…. it is better to admit and move on.. Khanum jan….      

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441. ‘…Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. ‘

     WHAT ? Germans ? Turks ?  

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442. lol.. Avery .. i can’t stop laughing …that is what I felt when I read Monastras comment about Germans… Turks.. barbarians.. ect.. totally confused..lool

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443. How/why would Seljuk Turks, the newest arrivals be Anatolians?  We all know they originated elsewhere. The Armenian highlands are part of Anatolia/Asia Minor…..yes…but, I disagree wholeheartedly that the Seljuks had anything to do w/ Anatolia, except to conquer it and the people who were there originally.  If anything WE are the original Anatolians!

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444. Karekin, As Boyajian, I also agree with her that lately I am in agreement in most of your posts, excepting the one that you said that we were better off than most during 1500-1600’s in the Ottoman regime.  I directed my conversation to Gor but I also mentioned that we were in constant attacks by the Seljuk Ottoman Turks in the region.  Other than that I am in agreement with your past several posts.

     Gor, You certainly did your research about how and when both the Seljuk Turks and the Ottoman Turks stepped into our homeland.  Good for you Gor jan.

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445. My Ladies— i have to say I am a bit surprised about Karekin because I have gotten to know him on these pages for a while now… He sure is one of them people who you can’t figure out… because he is or should I say WAS(but could not hiding) more favorable toward Turks than his own then he would switch Amos (his style).. his preaching was always directed to us and his comments and yes many of them were absolutely harsh toward Armenians… we hardly ever heard him preach, accuse, and descipline Turks but he had plenty to say to us… so i would be cautious about him and would not get too comfortable with his comments because he can drop a bomb anytime… it has happened before..

     But that aside…I have to say.. i am happy to see Karekin is actually changing tides and sharing thoughts, and feelings that an Armenian who lost his or her family during Genocide would truly share, and expresses a bit of annoyance with the denialists… lets just see how long this will last.. i have faith in him….

     Sincerely,

     Gayane

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446. gor

     I agree that my words of “almost unanimous praise” was mistaken. On the back page of the paperback we find “The New York Sun”, Jason Goodwin in the “Literary Review” (UK) and Orhan Pamuk. on the first page (“Praise for Osman’s Dream”) we find praise from “Booklist – Starred review”, “Library journal”, “Kirkus Reviews”, Publisher’s weekly and “the Scotsman, William Dalrymple”. I find it particularly interesting that Pamuk and Dalrymple, that both have raised the issue of the Armenian genocide (even if they do not necessarily use the word), are among those who praise the book. The Armenian genocide is mention in the pages 533-536. The Amazon comments you have mentioned, Boyajian, are made by people whom we do not know the credentials of. That many will disagree with her treatment of the deportaitions and massacres of the  Armenians, particularly Armenians, is not surprising. But our theme was the general appraisal of the book. Apart from that out theme was THE SITUATION OF ARMENIANS ALSO AT EARLIER DATES THAN THE TIME OF CATASTROPHY. Honestly, gor, I feel that you have a strange reluctance to go into the earlier situation of Armenians compared with other at the time. So you must excuse me for still experiencing you as seeing the situation of Armenians too much through the lense of the Armenian Genocide  

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447. The word Anatolia is of Greek origin variously defined as “dawn” or “the start of day.”  In other words, the east. 

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448. “The Amazon comments you have mentioned, Boyajian, are made by people whom we do not know the credentials of.”

     Ragnar, credentials! Really? This site is full of ‘uncredentialed’ comments; just ordinary peoples’ opinions which generate much worthy discussion. We are fortunate to have such a diverse mix here. The comments from Amazon were just ‘opinions’ and I posted them here because I thought (as I wrote) that they would be of interest to Armenian readers. Loosen up a bit.

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449. Well, let’s get history straight….by the 15 – 1600’s, the Seljuks were gone as a ruling force and had been displaced by the Ottomans. The few Seljuks who had arrived most likely blended in (via marriage) with the native Armenians. This started the DNA mixing we know of today and explains why there are very few ‘pure’ Turks in Turkey. We should also remember that there is a huge gap between those known as ‘white’/European Turks and ‘black’/Anatolian Turks. The racism shown towards Armenians comes largely from the white Turk community, which was mostly imported from the Balkans and have no historical connection to Asia Minor. These people were all converts from the last 400 years, and most took refuge in Turkey only after WWI. Their sense of superiority overrides everything else and they have little respect for those who preceded them. This is a bit odd, considering that they are living in homes built by the original natives, but this divide is real and goes a long way in explaining the underlying roots of Turkish racism in the Turkish military and among the political elites.  

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450. I object to the use of Anatolian in reference to Western Armenians, because Turks and their Denialist cadres have been using the term ‘Anatolian’ to deliberately co-mingle the original inhabitants of Western Armenia and Eastern Byzantium with the progeny of Seljuk Turk invaders. Its purpose is to obfuscate their origins over time and convince the world they have been there all along: original, native inhabitants of the lands, and not invaders who stole those lands form the true original, native, sedentary, peaceful inhabitants and builders of those lands – after exterminating them en masse.
      
     I am aware of  the historic Greek origins of the word ‘Anatolia’. However, it has acquired a sinister tone and purpose in modern use.
      
     I will continue using ‘Armenian Highlands’, ‘Armenian Plateau’, ‘Eastern Byzantium’, ‘Greek Byzantium’, ‘Asia Minor’ – to keep to reminding Turks and their Denialist cadres of who was there first and who invaded and exterminated the original inhabitants.  And I will continue objecting to the term ‘Anatolian’  when referring to Armenians.
      
     The Denialist posting under the name ‘Anadolu’ should disabuse anyone of what the term implies in current usage for Turks.
      
     We are not Anatolians: we are Armenian Highlanders – Armenians from the Armenian Highlands, the Armenian Plateau.
     We are not Anatolians.

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451. Point taken, Avery. 

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452. Ragnar, the comment by Orhan Pamuk on the back of Finkel’s book is one short sentence:
      
     “Caroline Finkel effortlessly conveys the high drama of Ottoman history.”
      
     Nice words of praise, but I can’t help wondering what else this man of letters might have said that did not make the back of the book.

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453. Well, we can agree to disagree, but…true Turks have no real claim or right to anything Anatolian, including the moniker, except, as I said, by conquest. Even by applying the Greek term for a piece of geography is very revealing.  There are plenty of honestly Turkish parts of the world on the other side of the Caspian, but Anatolia, the Armenian plateau or Asia Minor are not part of that grouping. Denialists might want to use the term, but by what right?  It doesn’t belong to them anymore than Ararat does. 

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454. ragnar naess,   I think to diminish the importance of Arnold Toynbee and Viscount Bryce’s Blue Book, an internationally acclaimed account on the treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman empire until and in the year 1915, published in 1916, i.e. when the genocide was still ongoing (a secondary source that’s often is considered primary given the year of publication) with an 2005 account of a Turkey-stationed author Finkel who was presented with an award by ‘Daughters of Atatürk’ is, to me, an affront to the mainstream historiography.

     karekin,   parts of the area at all times in ancient history until the invasion of Seljuks and colonization by Ottoman Turks was known as Asia Minor, Eastern Byzantium, Eastern Asia Minor, Armenian Highlands, Armenian Plateau. ‘Anatolia’ is a deliberately cooked-up toponym in an attempt to erase these ancient names of the area where the Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, and Armenians lived. It is unacceptable to say that Armenians are ‘Anatolians’. We have lived in the area for so long that historically the plateau was named after us: the Armenian Plateau. Avery is absolutely right: we are Armenian Highlanders.

     P.S. VTiger, I’m glad to have a descendent of a Sasountsi on these pages. The spirit of Sassoun/Moush Armenians is known to be unbreakable.

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455. Gor…yes, to us the eastern end of Anatolia is, in fact, the Armenian plateau, but let me ask….when is the last time you looked at a map?  I’ve not seen ‘Armenian plateau’ on any map of recent vintage. Moreover, since the term came from the ancient Greeks – easily thousands of years before the Turks arrived…and includes everything east of Istanbul, what is your beef? If anyone should be upset that they appropriated the term, it should be the Greeks, not us, not you.

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456. gor

     I am not diminishing the value of the “Blue Book”, on the contrary I have used some 50 hours reading it in detail and making notes quite recently. The 150+ letters and notes, mainly provided by bystanders, are obviously a very important material of documentation. As ICTJ says the most reasonable conclusion is that there were perpetrators around who targeted and killed Armenians “as such”. But the introduction and the history of Armenians appended is something else. To my mind these texts are much more marked by the propaganda purposes of  the British government. They amount to a demonization of Turks and the Ottoman Empire. Further, the texts have very little relevance for solution of the question of the role of the central CUP cadres. Some of those who testify have opinions on this, but needless to say the value of the documents, as Ara Sarafian says, lies in the eyewitness testimonies. But the reading of what went on is terrible and points to the responsibility of the government at the time.

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457. Gayane

     thank you for your remark that is it easy to go along with what Turkish spokesmen say when one sits at their table and drink their wine. I was recently in Istanbul and Ankara and spoke with Turkish historians, NGOs and officials, and I thought about your remark several times. The flesh is weak as I believe is said in the Bible, so thank you 

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458. ragnar naess,   devaluation of the Blue Book is the sense I got from this passage of yours: “Bryce is hardly ever referred to in the historical literature, except for the fact that he worked with Arnold Toynbee in publishing the documents on the deportations and massacres in 1915-16. But if one reads the last comprehensive history of the Ottoman empire, that of Caroline Finkel, which has received almost unanimous praise, I believe my characterization [‘Armenians led a fairly good life during the Ottoman centuries’] is correct, especially if you heed my qualification compared to others at the time[…].”
      
     Now you’re saying that the “150+ letters and notes, mainly provided by bystanders, are obviously a very important material of documentation” in the Blue Book and that you “used some 50 hours reading it in detail and making notes quite recently.”  You are certainly inconsistent. If the account is “hardly ever referred to in the historical literature”, then why you now think it is “obviously a very important material of documentation”? If you think Finkel’s account has received “almost unanimous praise”, why have you “used some 50 hours reading [the Blue Book] in detail and making notes quite recently”?
      
     Also, the Blue Book does not refer solely to the deportations and massacres of Armenians in 1915-16; it deals in great length with the history of Armenians and their treatment in the Ottoman centuries. To your mind, the texts are marked by the propaganda purposes of the British government. To our mind, the texts are marked by an honest attempt to depict the treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman empire. The undeniable historical fact that Armenians, as well as other Christians and Jews, were treated by the Turks as rayah and second-class millets, is not “a demonization of Turks and the Ottoman empire.” It is a reiteration of the sad actuality that existed throughout those centuries when non-Turks and non-Muslims were generally treated inadequately as compared to the dominant group: voiceless, un- or underrepresented, lacking basic civil rights, physically unsecured, legally unprotected, and oppressed.
      
     karekin,    I can speak for Armenians, not Greeks. The map of recent vintage were revised by the Turks: historical names changed, geographical toponyms changed, anthropological and demographic facts distorted. What do you expect to see on the current maps? But if we parrot the Turkish bosh that the easternmost part of ‘Anatolia’ is ‘Eastern Anatolia’ and not the Armenian Plateau, then it will become Eastern Anatolia, and the original name will be forgotten. Exactly what Turks desire. That’s my beef. Also, the recorded history of the mankind is not determined by the “current maps.” Our existence is not limited by the current day alone nor by the emergence of invading Seljuk Turks in the 11th century AD. Our existence is a continuum. If you look at the first map of the world Imago Mundi, dated to the 6th century BC, you’ll find Urartu. If you look at the Eratosthenes map (276-194 BC), Posidonius map (c. 150-130 BC), Pomponius Mela map (c. 43 AD), and Ptolemy map (c. 150 AD), you will find ‘Armenia’, not some ‘Anatolia’.

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459. Part2 (re ‘Anatolia’)
     When Turks deliberately use the term Mount Ağrı’ (sic)  referring to Mount Ararat, while everybody else in the world calls it Mount Ararat.
     When the Turkish Airlines ad running in the Los Angeles county area refers to quote “thousands of years of Turkish culture “ (say what ?).
     When every original toponym in the occupied Armenian and Greek lands has been and is being Turkified.
     When Artsakh’s historic Armenian names were completely Turkified.
     When Turkish Culture and Tourism Ministry Hakan Doganay, says “Urartians, Seljuks and Ottomans lived in Ani,” (deliberately) forgetting (omitting) to mention that Ani is an Armenian city and was a capital of Armenia in the 10th century.
      (“Turkish official denies Armenian origin of Ani” http://news.am/eng/news/70987.html )
      
      
     Then that’s the beef  everyone of us should have and constantly and relentlessly counter.
     Every little ‘innocent’ remark, ‘slip’, ‘mistake’, ‘omission’ is part of the deliberate, calculated campaign to erase any traces of Armenians from our ancestral lands.
      
      
     Given all that, I see no reason to assist Turks in their campaign of White Genocide, after their  (almost completely) successful Red Genocide.
      
     In fact  I will henceforth start referring to the historic toponyms in the occupied lands by their original names, as in Constantinople  (aka Istanbul); Smyrna  (aka Izmir)…..they sound more civilized and noble anyway. If Turks can  call Mount Ararat by the corrupted insulting name of Mount Ağrı’ (sic), then I see no reason not to refer to Constantinople by its original, historic,  beautiful name.

      

     Reply

460. please, gor, read what I wrote again. The material is important, the preface/introduction and the historical sketch is not, to my mind

     Reply

461. the insulting and false statement   ‘The few Seljuks who had arrived most likely blended in (via marriage) with the native Armenians.’ has been noticed and noted  Karekin. 

     You made a similar claim in another thread a while back. 
     At that time I provided a reference to a source – an expert on Seljuk Turk migrations – which showed that there were in fact several million Seljuk Turks who migrated to the Armenian Highlands behind the  vanguard of the Seljuk Turk shock troops.

     I will re-post the reference at a later time. 

     Reply

462. Gor
     Did Armenians evolved from ape to human being in eastern Turkey?
     Were the first man and woman on earth Armenian? 
     Thank you for your answers in advance 

     Reply

463. please, ragnar naess,   why is it that a contemporary historical sketch that shows Turks’ true colors is, to your mind, less important than a newly-published account for which a Turkey-stationed author has, to your mind, received ‘almost unanimous praise’? Might it be that the reason lies not in an account, but in your general favoritism and preferential treatment of the Turks? Unto-thyself-type honest…

     Reply

464. John (if this Christian name is your real name at all),   it’s been a long time already that the theory of evolving from ape to human being has no validity, in case you missed this. Your sarcasm is so primordial. What science does know, however, is that some peoples are autochthonous (indigenous), others are originally alien. Although several theories on the origin of Armenians exist, many scholars come to agree that the Armenian Plateau, in fact, might have been their original birthplace. At the time Armenians had originated there was no such a toponym as ‘eastern Turkey’ because Turkey on the whole had emerged only in 1923, for your knowledge. Also, in case you missed it in the history class (if you’ve ever taken one at all), first man on Earth had, obviously, no ethnicity, but some peoples had originated and formed into nations much earlier than others, for instance, Turks who popped up on the maps only around 10th century AD. Thank you for educating yourself in advance.

     Reply

465. when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land

     Reply

466. The so called ‘so called’  stolen lands were in fact definitely, unambiguously, factually stolen. Even Turks themselves boast of their origins in the mythical Turan/Turania around Altai Mountains (another theft by Turks: Turanian is an Iranian word). Turks glowingly boast of their martial prowess re the Battle of Manzikert. Why was there a battle there ? Was it because Byzantium  was attempting to invade the homeland of Seljuk Turks ?
      
      
     Even Turks can’t change the massive historical record of Seljuk Turks having travelled thousands of miles, and having invaded the Armenian Highlands from the region of Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains.
      
      
     Star Trek Transporter was not invented at the time, so they must have travelled by land – massacring anyone  who stood in their way.
      
      
     Is there a record of Seljuk Turks having purchased the lands of indigenous inhabitants in a voluntary value-for-value transaction ?
     Was Armenian  real estate exchanged for something valuable ? Massive herds of cattle, horses ? Silver ? Gold ? What ?
     On the other hand there are copious records of Seljuk Turks having taken those lands by fire and sword – that’s why it’s called theft, or ‘stolen’.

     Reply

467. John (is that your real name or you are hiding your Turkishness behind a Christian name as Gor stated?  It is just absolutely ridiculeous to use a name that does not belong to you..but then again what does to a Turk right??? 

     You said

      when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land

     HUHHHHHHHHHHHh?????

     Reply

468. Karekin– here is a link that may be helpful to you .. it shares the maps and Armenia in relation to each map…….

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKjl9lLlisA

     And to all you denialists and Turkophiles… please pay attention to the LAST segment of the clip… but then again, why don’t I include it here.. just in case you miss it…

     ARMENIA:
     A Land that has been torn between the East and the West
     Trampled by all of the fiercest empires in history
     Victim to the most autrocious persecutions
     And yet,
     It has stood the test of time
     From the oldest maps to the latest
     Armenia still exists…..and will exist (emphasis mine)….

     Gayane

     Reply

469. Gor jan- you basically said what we have discovered about Ragnar a long long long long long time ago… you are absolutely right in stating the following:

     Might it be that the reason lies not in an account, but in your general favoritism and preferential treatment of the Turks? 

     No question about it my friend.. no question about it.. Ragnar is just that.. he has not fessed up about that but he sure shows through his writing..

     Reply

470. Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages, my critical solidarity with both parties certainly must appear as general favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks

     Reply

471. Gayane…thank you for the video…it was excellent. Of course, it’s ridiculous for Turkey to continue to ignore the facts of the historical record that Armenians originated and lived in the eastern half of their current territory for many thousands of years…probably since well into pre-history. As you probably know, some of the oldest human remains have been found in what is now Georgia…just north of the current Armenian border….it is 1.5 million years old. To get there, they clearly came up from the south, meaning they spent time in Armenia. And yes, the political overlay also has a story to tell.  Across history, as you can see from the maps, borders change, populations change, kingdoms…and unfortunately, sadly, once you’ve lost political control of territory, it is very hard to maintain nomenclature. I wish more than anything that Armenians could have hung on in their historical lands west of the Arax, but at this point and as a historian, I can only observe the path of history in an objective way. If your love is truly for the land of Sepastia, or Mush or Van, then you love it no matter what kind of political overlay there might be at any point in history.  It doesn’t mean you like those governments or rulers, but at the same time, don’t turn your back on historical Armenia…and do your best to maintain the one we have now. Wishing and wanting something you can’t have only leads to frustration and stress. Ask any 5 year old.

       

        

     Reply

472. great vid Gayane.

     Reply

473. Ragnar, it depends on what you have solidarity for.  If your solidarity is with truth and fairness for both sides, I’m sure no one can fault you for this.  But your apparent solidarity with those Turks (not all) and others (McCarthy, etal) who distort the truth, denigrate the Armenians, and deny them justice, casts a shadow on you.  You can see this, can’t you? 
      
     You attack known, established, contemporaneous eye-witness accounts in support of what?    You support modern-day, manufactured versions, skewed toward a Turkish revisionist viewpoint, because…?
     Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with many here.   This is not a personal attack against you, but what you do is a personal slap against the children of the victims.

     Reply

474. ‘Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages’
      
      
     The correct term should be demonization of Anti-Armenian Denialist Turks: there is no demonization of ordinary Turks on these pages.
      
      
     And compared  to  someone who referred to Armenian posters here as ‘inbreds’ ,  and who has referred to our murdered, tortured, mutilated ancestors, which included children and babies (born & unborn) in terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’ –  the civility maintained by Armenian writers here, many of whom have blood relatives that were exterminated by Turks, many of whom having heard first-hand eyewitness accounts of the massacres from their own blood relatives – is astonishing, and quite becoming of the high culture passed down to us from our highly civilized and majestic ancestors. 

     Reply

475. Well put Avery!

     Reply

476. Loved the video, Gayane.  Thanks for sharing.

     Reply

477. John,the real problem is the Genocide & as well the stolen lost lands which is much worse, as we’ve been uprooted from our natural habitat of thousand of years & thrown away to the different corners of the earth.With this kind of living we’ve come to understand what we’re missing & that is our HOME.The spirit of the massacred continues on living in us until the day of justice & our return back to our lands.

     Reply

478. “when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land”

     
     No John.  Be careful not to allow yourself to be misled by one particular thread of comments.  Any particular thread will tend  to have its own particular focus, while another will follow another related theme.   It’s like conversation.  And sometimes it’s just the theme of the day.
      
     The current ‘conversation’ between Turks and Armenians will always be about both these issues, and then some (churches, Artsakh, Nakhichevan, Treaty of Sevres, etc,.)  The genocide and stolen land and property are inextricably bound together.  I know most Turks are less nervous at the idea of admitting to genocide than they are about Armenians wanting to reclaim land.   But you can’t really talk about genocide without the question of theft and murder coming up.  And you can’t talk about theft and murder without the question of punishment and compensation coming up.  It is by nature a very complex problem, created by the Turks themselves, and it is high time that Turkey deals with it.   The modern Turkish republic has a debt to pay.  
     

     Reply

479. Boyajian

     I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious. 

     Reply

480. Yes indeed..ypu are absolutely correct Boyajian jan in stating.. The Modern Turkish republic has a debt to pay..

     Turkey…..Enough of hiding behind the mightly dollar which by the way was stolen from my ancestors… one day the true ugly face will finally emerge and the rosey colored glasses will break once and for all…. 

     Reply

481. Well said Avery jan…

     You welcome Boyajian jan…

     VTiger jan-well said… but we know John is confusd as any of his denialists buddies..he does not know what he is talking about.. complete mess..  

     Ragnar—- you should not talk mister…absolutely should not talk about  

     Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages, my critical solidarity with both parties certainly must appear as general favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks

     But you DO show favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks… Do you want me to compile everything that supports my statement?? I can absolutely do it even if it takes me two days to do so.. I did the same thing to show how messed up Robert The Turk is.. so please stop this BS that we demonize the Turks (again. for the GAZILLIONTH, TRILLIONTH, times.. we do not demonize or hate ordinary Turks..it is toward the denialists Turks and the Turkish govt)  and you show no favouritism…

     Boyajian hit the nail with the hammer about your intentions here:   Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with many here.. 

     Gayane
        

     Reply

482. John- you said..

     I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious

     You mean Turkish govt has a claim that is very serious?????

     do you mind sharing what their claim is??? I am curious to know.. IF their claim is Armenians did this or Armenians sided with the enemy, Armenians took arms and rebelled against Ottoman Empire.. if Genocide was not Genocide but casualties of the war.. I AM NOT INTERESTED… what other claims would they have besides those???  I am curious to know…

     Please share..

     Thank you

     Gayane      

     Reply

483. If you are not interested, They are probably not interested as well. 

     Reply

484. What’s their ‘very serious’ claim, John?  Enlighten us, and let’s look into it point by point jointly, if you will, unless you believe, of course, that Turks evolved from apes to humans in eastern Turkey and that the first human on earth was Turk.
      
     Re: interest.  A disinterested government would not finance lobbying groups worldwide, bribe scholars to produce Turkic-centric dubious accounts, and disseminate cheap, unsubstantiated propaganda.

     Reply

485. John- of course they should be interested… because the possible claims I provided to you are just another dirty game Turkish govt is playing to create doubt, create illusion of false history…it is better if they start recognizing the claims we brought forth sooner or later….. because the more Turkey tries to hide the more they are called out.. .

       YOU obviously think they have CLAIMS and SERIOUS CLAIMS.. so why don’t you share it with us and as Gor stated we can go point by point.. 

       We know Turkish govt very well and what they claim is nonsense as I stated in my last post.. they are lies to stir everyone away from the real truth; which holds no ground in the realm of what THEIR ancestor did to my ancestors.  So just cut this BS of serious claims John.

     Come to the table with some examples sir but if you do not, I would suggest to keep your posts to yourself….because then those posts turn into just empty nonsense bunch of words….

     Go ahead sir.. we are all ears…

     Gayane    

     Reply

486.  Avery,
     about demonization: On august 25 you said: Armenians did relatively well, such
     as it is, in the Ottoman Empire not because of
     it, but despite of it. Compare what
     Walker says: “The millet system has sometimes been praised as a model of just
     administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic. Certainly, as a
     method for administration of conquered people, it was morally ahead of anything
     to come out of Europe at the time or for some time after” (“Armenia, the
     survival of a nation”. Routledge 1980, page 87). These are no small words by an
     author who generally is not favourable to neither Turks nor Turkish government.
     If you go to the ordinary, truth seeking Turk and say: “I respect you
     personally but all your governments have only created havoc and massacred
     people since you came from Central Asia”, see how far you get in your efforts
     to convince him. Will he believe that you respect Turks? Not if you utter
     vilifications which also are completely out of line with what historical research says. Then
     on august 25 you say: “well said Seervart: Turks definitely want to take control of Europe”. This is fantastic, more in line with the sick ideas of the killer we witnessed in Norway on july 22, than with
     any responsible attitude and objective appraisal of Turkey and the European Union. And you also praised Seervard even if he forgot to say “the Turkish government”, but just “Turks”. But let us
     return to the Ottoman Empire.To take the Balkans, Peter Sugar, who wrote a
     history which has been reprinted as a textbook for the University of Washington
     and many other places, being one of the standard book of the history of the
     Ottoman Balkans for more than 20 years. Peter Sugar says: “The rights of
     landlords were strictly regulated in the Ottoman empire and therefore this
     change of overlords usually pleased the peasantry…..this principle safeguarded
     the lowly on the social scale so long as the system worked properly. And made
     ottoman rule preferable to that of unprincipal nobles to the Balkan peasants”.(p.19)
     , and: While the muslim was obviously superior to the non-muslim by definition,
     in practice during the early centuries of the empire people of different creeds
     were often treated almost as equals, in accordance with their profession…….later
     the religious difference became crucial (p.31).Sugar, Peter
     (1977/1966): Southeastern Europe under Ottoman Rule, 1354-1804. A history of
     East Central Europe. University of Washington Press. Seattle and London. – Now, this was the Balkans and not Eastern Anatolia or the Armenian highlands. But it characterises the Ottoman Empire at its best. I cannot see that vilifying the  Ottoman Empire helps Armenians in their fight for their just cause

     Reply

487. Karekin, you write: “The question is….what happened in 1915?  Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?  Why did they turn against their most productive and loyal citizens?  This is the real question. Even the sultans didn’t go beserk in such a genocidal way, because they were smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication. But, the goons of the CUP did…tell us, why?”. Comment: I am not in the position to give a comprehensive answer, but the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the  combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made them attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns. There was undoubtedly an element of paranoia in this, which shows itself in the fury unleached on completely innocent people. But if you ask for an explanation of a horrible  policy which targeted Armenians as such, I would look at these factors. It is not unexplainable, but certainly inexcusable.

     Reply

488. Robert Melson’s book, Revolution & Genocide, paints a very clear,  unbiased picture of the CUP’s insanity…and while paranoia might have played a part, the cost of war, loss of territory and the idea that outright theft would solve their problems are probably more essential. I don’t believe the genocide had a religious basis, though the CUP goons certainly used religion as a helpful cudgel, much as it’s being used in the US today to wage wars around the world. I think it was, at its core, economic.  Just like Hitler, and in anticipation of him, they were power hungry and thought they were invincible.  As many of us have seen play out in US courts, and then upheld in courts around the world, according to most common law practice, stolen property can be restored to its proper owners (or their descendants) even long after they are are gone.  I think Erdogan’s intent to return confiscated properties is something of a start, but does not go far enough and is not nearly historically inclusive enough. At the least, it should be retroactive to 1923, or even earlier, to 1915, if he really wants to make amends that actually begin to address minority concerns. 

     And by the way, as I see it, the sultans were synonymous with imperialism….they and their armies are what expanded the empire over the centuries. They can’t be separated.   

     Reply

489. What a nonsense is your comment, rangar naess:    “[…]the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns.”
      
     In terms of experiences of targeted massacres, for Armenians the times of imperialism were not essentially different from the times of the Sultans in that Armenians have seen mass murders during the Ittihadists as have they seen mass murders earlier, during the reign of Sultan Abdulhamid II.
      
     Turkish nationalism began with the Turanian Society founded in 1839 (note the year), followed in 1908 with the Turkish Society, which later expanded into the Turkish Hearth and eventually expanded to include ideologies such as pan-Turanism and pan-Turkism. In 1839, Ottoman Armenians were still considered millet-i-sadika (loyal millet).
      
     Combined threat of the powers to the Ottoman empire was dealt not only by the ethnic Turks. Tens of thousands of Ottoman Armenians fought bravely at the fronts defending the empire.
      
     Aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population were not a uniquely Armenian phenomenon. All the colonized peoples of the empire stood up for their self-determination rights, including the Turks’ fellow Muslims, Arabs. However, only Armenians were deliberately exterminated as a race.
      
     The experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 occurred because Turks waged wars in those years in which atrocities occur to all warring parties and their civil population. Ethnic Turks represented a warring party. Hence, they suffered atrocities. Conversely, Armenians were not a party to any war, nor were the majority of their provinces anywhere near the frontlines. Regardless the fact, they were subjected to genocidal extermination.
      
     [All the above] “created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians.” There’s hardly any evidence of the Armenians’ involvement, except for aspirations for independence of a few Armenian revolutionaries that could have created “a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians”. Armenians did not figure in any of the delirious arguments (except for their revolutionaries’ independence aspirations) that could have invited the Turks’ ‘siege mentality’ to them. Only sick mentality could have made Turks attack Armenians who were by any measure the reason of their woes.
      
     As for “[…]attack Armenians, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns”, one may be chagrined as to how a human rights defender can so primitively explain the savage extermination of innocent people whose only desire was to live peacefully and securely on their lands, and who didn’t even realize that they had “rights in the eyes of the powers”.

     Reply

490. The whole “treatment of Armenians” in the Ottoman Empire brings up an interesting topic.

     Take for instance the treatment of Jews in both the Russian Empire and compare it the situation of Jews in German/ Austro-Hungarian domains prior to WWI.

     In Russia, the Jews lived under many restrictions, forced to live in the Pale of Settlement, not allowed to own land, subject to random pogroms, openly reviled by non-Jews, taxed almost into oblivion, etc. Russian society was especially backward at this time and Jews were particularly vulnerable.

     In German/ Austro-Hungarian territories (there was no unified Germany until after the Franco-Prussian War), Jews accumulated great wealth (perhaps the wealthiest segment in German society), served in high positions in the military and government, were allowed to flourish and made great advancements to modern science, commerce, etc. In contrast to Russia, these lands were increasingly cosmopolitan and progressive.

     Now which society committed the holocaust?

     What is my point?  When the chips are down, the hard-working minority with wealth will be slaughtered, will be scapegoated for the failures and defeats of the majority (often reviled and blamed problems the majority actually created for themselves). The majority will focus their negative energies not on the government but on the vulnerable minority that seemingly live carefree lives. The minority will be demonized, they will be subject to abuse, they will be robbed, and for having the audacity to defend themselves from such abuses, will be branded traitors.

     This happened in the Ottoman Empire/Turkey before and during WWI and Germany after WWI and during WWII

     Reply

491. Ragnar. Don’t bother filling endless paragraphs with endless quotes from an endless list of authors: I couldn’t care less.
      
     I don’t engage in high-brow discourse with people who call Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’  and refer to our exterminated ancestors using terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’.  People who pretend to be fair and balanced, but who invariably slip, like you did, and show their true colors and attitude for Armenians get no quarter from me. You hate Armenians with a passion. My job is to shout-down people like you. Every time you want to say something to me, you’ll get the same treatment and response.
      
      
     As to my praise for  Seervart: not only I stand by what I wrote to her, but I will proudly reaffirm it here: “well said Seervart: Turks definitely want to take control of Europe”.  How do I know this to be true ?
      
     Here: [“Erdogan urges German Turks not to integrate”
     “At the meeting last month, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan urged Turks living in foreign countries to take out citizenship of the new homelands – not to integrate, but rather to become more politically active, according to the website of news magazine Der Spiegel.”]  http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100317-25933.html  (17 Mar 10 14:49 CET)
      
      
     Not to integrate, but rather become more politically active: I call that taking over. Case closed.

     Reply

492. “[…]vilifications which also are completely out of line with what historical research says [re: orgins of Turks in Central Asia].”    ragnar naess, since you clearly are under the delusion that only your ‘historical research’ is refined, do please lay out your ratiocinations as to where else the Turks might have come from, how they appeared in Asia Minor, and what happened to the indigenous peoples inhabiting the area for millennia after the Turks’ invasions?

     Reply

493. John, writes:

     “Boyajian, I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious.”

     
     What is this claim, John?  What claim could Turkey have that takes precedence over Turkey paying a debt for the death of nearly 2 million people and the elimination of an indigenous people from its homeland? 
      
     This is a game that Turkey plays to avoid facing their guilt:  pretending that they had a proper justification for the criminal acts against their Christian minorities.   It will be a dark day for mankind when a government can claim ‘justification’ for such crimes against its own citizens.
     

     Reply

494. ragnar naess,   I’d like to address your citation from Christopher Walker’s Armenia: The Survival of a Nation  (Avery,  I hope you don’t mind, since the comment was addressed to you).
      
     On page 87 Walker, indeed, states that “the millet system has sometimes been praised as a model of just administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic. Certainly, as a method for administration of conquered people, it was morally ahead of anything to come out of Europe at the time or for some time after.”  You claim that these are no small words by an author who generally is not favorable to either Turks or Turkish government, but you forgot to tell the posters that you conveniently omitted the rest of Walker’s paragraph. Here’s what follows “for some time after” after a colon:
      
     […] : compare the Spanish conquest of South America, or the behaviour of the Portuguese conqueror D’Albuquerque who, during his expedition of 1507 along the shores of the Persian Gulf, mutilated Muslim prisoners of both sexes with the object of inspiring terror.”

     In other words, the millet system was certainly better than physical annihilation and mutilations of a people. Even in the fraction that you chose to cite Walker doesn’t state univocally that the millet system was favorable for the conquered, colonized people. He says: “the millet system has sometimes been praised [by whom? Turks and Turkophiles?] as a model of just administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic [again, by whom? – G].”  However, on pages 88 and 89, Walker demonstrates that although Armenians didn’t suffer the fate of the South American aborigines or Muslim prisoners of D’Albuquerque (only until 1894-96, 1909, and 1915-23 — G), the millet system was discriminatory and unbearable.
      
     Here’s a passage in its entirety that follows the paragraph from which you selectively chose a fragment:
      
     “In terms of results, too, it was a cleverly contrived system, since the ruler soon drew the benefits[…], while waiting for the districts to become profitable. Even at the early stage there were flaws in the Ottoman system, which were later to make the position of Armenians quite intolerable. Besides this enormous general disadvantage, Armenians suffered from certain specific discriminations. As Christians, they were not permitted to bear arms, which laid them open to their predatory neighbours. Their religion did give them the benefit of exemption from military service (although it also meant that no officer class could emerge among them), since only a Muslim might draw his sword in the defence of Islam. Nevertheless Christians were subjected to the devshirme, or boy-collection, whereby officials used to take children from the Christian communities, educate them as Muslims and put them into the Ottoman civil service. By the end of the 16th century devshirme was an established practice in certain Armenian localities. As regards taxation, all Christians were required to pay poll-tax and, where relevant, property tax. These taxes were not collected in an orderly manner; more often it was a question of officials just extorting as much as they could from the people, who had no redress. One disability which the Armenians alone of the Christian peoples of the empire had to bear, and one that was resented most especially, was the obligation to provide free winter quarters (kishlak) to the nomadic Kurds and to their flocks, often for four to six months each year. Besides the disagreeable presence of squatters, they ran up large expenses in providing food and animal foodstuffs.”
      
     And then, on page 89, Walker concludes:
      
     “The [millet] system was a degrading humiliation. All these factors led to the steady impoverishment of the Armenians. In every sphere they were reminded that they were inferior to Muslims, and were consequently reduced to frightened subservience.”
      
     No further comments…

     Reply

495. ragnar naess,   about what happened in 1915. Your interpretation:  “[…]the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made them attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns.”
      
     Compare what Lewis says:
      
     “For the Turks, the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats. From the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very heart of the Turkish homeland—and to renounce these lands would have meant not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state.”
      
     These are no small words by an author who generally is not favorable to either Armenians or the Armenian Diaspora or the Armenian government.
      
     Bernard Lewis, The Emergence of Modern Turkey

     Reply

496. CAN SOMEONE SAY…. GOR just won his Case and RAGNAR lost his in a very embarassing way…in people’s court.. Case closed….I say I CAN….

     Gor and Avery JAN.. yes dzer tsav@ tanem… yes dzezanov hpart em… HPART…:)  

     Reply

497. I would never mind one of my compatriots responding on my behalf Gor: all for one, one for all. We are one team battling Denialists.  I admire your patience with certain posters. 

      

     Reply

498. Gor

     Bernard Lewis is spot on. I have just finished a book called ” Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey& A Disputed Genocide” writen by Guenter Lewy. He tells the details of the Armenian Indipendence movement which is exactly the opposite of what you try to portray here. The economic reasons are virtialy nil as Greeks stayed in the Western Turkey untill the end of the WW1 and they weren’t deported. I haven’t read the book of Bernard lewis but Guenter Lewy and Bernard Lewis seem to point  out the Armenian Independence movement therefore either they or you must be wrong.

     It is amazing to see how some Armenians interpret the subjects exactly the opposite way. Erdogan didn’t say ” do not integrate” He did say ” Please integrate but do not allow to be assimilate . What is wrong with it? Avery, You are a loss case. I am not hopeful that you will see the light at the end of the tunnel

     Reply

499. Monastras— I believe my friend Avery asked you this question numerous times, and yet to receive a response…

     Please be so kind to answer a direct question TO YOU before you continue asking your own questions.. Understood????

     {Guest – Monastras
     2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
     (posted @Hurriyet)
     
     Yes or No ?

     We are all ears…

     Gayane  
      
      

     Reply

500. Do you affirm or do you retract – with apologies  – your post below:
     {Guest – Monastras 
     2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
     (posted @Hurriyet)
     
     Yes or No ?

     In case you haven’t figured it out by now, Madam, every one of your posts addressed to me on any thread will be answered with a re-paste of your Denialist post from Hurriyet.

     Affirm it proudly for all to see here @AW, or deny and withdraw it with shame and apologies: we can take it from there. 

     Reply

501. you beat me to it, sister Gayane. I am honored and proud. Very proud indeed of our Armenian Lady Samurai. A lightening flash of high-carbon layered steel……and another one bites the dust.

     Reply

502. Avery jan-it is a pleasure to be o the same side as you… always…I watch your back and you do the same for me..and as promised I will remind Monastras and Robert the same thing over and over… and I intend to keep my promise..:)

     Always an honor

     Gayane
     Aka… Armenian Lady Samurai

     Reply

503. Hello John,

     Did you ever get the list of the SERIOUS CLAIMS you suggest Turkey has?? because we are still waiting… please don’t delay….we are eager to hear what you have to say…

     John
     August 29, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Boyajian
     I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious.

       

     Reply

504. monastras,    I understand you have an insulting post which you’re required to affirm or retract. Until you do that, I won’t respond to your bloviations re: Lewy’s book or how Lewy was amply rewarded by Turkish authorities through the launching of a campaign to distribute his distortionist book free of charge to libraries and to select groups of diplomats.

     P.S. Have you ever read any account written by a scholar who’s not a genocide denialist, by any chance? Or you only read what soothes your ears? Genocide scholars’ accounts massively outnumber a few accounts by the denialists, did you know that?

     Reply

505. I did read the Taner Akcam book which is in my library. I asked him to answer my questions but he hasn’t replied. I haven’t seen any answer to my questions in his writings as well.

     Reply

506. BTW, I have a a first edition of the “Emergence of Modern Turkey” by Bernard Lewis. It was my father’s from college. You would be interested to know that he called it the “Armenian holocaust” and did a pretty good job of laying out the environment that lead to the holocaust/genocide. He also did a thorough breakdown of various CUP members and their roles in the holocaust. 

     In subsequent editions of the book the term Armenian Holocaust was omitted.

     This occurred largely because Lewis was going to be denied access to Turkish archives if he did not submit to their official directives not too mention a large donation to Princeton from the Turkish government for the Middle East Dept.  This is not just my opinion but holds sway amongst his academic peers as well.

     At the time, he one of the few Middle East scholars of any renown. He desperately wanted to remain in the good graces of Turkish authorities and so essentially made a deal with the devil. Additionally, Lewis began to develop Neo-conservative tendencies before it became so widespread, meaning that his views were pro-Israel, pro- Zionist, and mirrors Lewy’s views:

     1. As long as Israel and Turkey get along, we will advocate for Turkey
     2. There WAS, IS, AND WILL ONLY EVER BE be one genocide and it happened to the Jews full-stop. 
      

     Reply

507. Gor jan… I am sure Monastras does not..unfortunately….it would have been nice to see her convert into he righteous side of the path but the way she is going, hmmmm.. who knows???

     Gayane

     Reply

508. Joseph– Thank you for your post.. it gives a clear picture who this loser Lewis is.. another bought individual by the Turkish govt.. not surprised…

     Gayane

     Reply

509. Joseph,this is a very important observation which I did not know about.Very enlightening.Could you please give the details of this 1st edition(print date/publishing house etc) together with the page numbers where ‘Armenian Holocaust’ is mentioned?Many thanks in advance.

     Reply

510. gor
     youwrite: [All the above] “created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians.” There’s hardly any evidence of the Armenians’ involvement, except for aspirations for independence of a few Armenian revolutionaries that could have created “a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians”.
     Comment . you get me wrong. the siege mentality didnt need much Armenian involvement to lead to a targeting of the Armenians, it was in the main produced by the experiences of 1877-78 and 1912-13, not by the Armenians, but of course armenian revolutionaries contributed to the siege mentality and paranoia. As I say this was a paranoia, and paranoic people overeact, they may even murder. I was not commenting on the Armenian involvement in this section of my text. But may be you only read in my comments what you already have decided is meant by me?

     Reply

511. avery
     I feel you are a bit hard on Monastras. We should rather discuss. Monastras, the opinion that the deportations and massacres of Ottoman Armenians in 1915-16 constitutes genocide is not only shared by Armenians. It is shared by the majority of relevant historians, right or wrong, and the general opinion in the West. As you probably have noticed I agree with most of the parties in some, but not in all, but I disagree that the whole issue is some Armenian construction. Do you really mean this?

     Reply

512. Bernard Lewis is an old man who has been anti-Armenian and anti-genocide for his entire career, and appears to be well connected the micro-community of those who subscribe to such views. Yes, he is a scholar and an academic, but let’s remember that does not mean his work is honest, truthful or even objective. He promotes a stilted point of view as academic research, but does not reveal his filters.  He promotes a very specific angle that gets him accolades in certain, micro communities who – very lemming-like – stand in awe, rather than level any honest critique of his assertions. While not a complete fraud like Lewy or McCarthy, he is another in a long line of opportunists who suck at the teat of the Turkish propaganda machine and got a big head in the process.   

     Reply

513. I cited Bernard Lewis to demonstrate that even a notorious genocide denier like him concludes in The Emergence of Modern Turkey that Armenians represented the deadliest of threats for the Turks not because, as ragnar naess wrongly claims, the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans or because nationalism, augmented by the threat of the Powers, Ottoman Christians’ aspirations for independence, and the experiences of massacres of Turks in the wars of 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians, even women and children, but because Turks wished to keep for themselves as much land and properties at the expense of the Armenians. Turks understood that renouncing the Armenian lands would have meant the dissolution of the Turkish state. This is the major reason of perpetrating the genocide against Armenians who otherwise—except their few revolutionaries’ aspirations for independence that were common to all of the oppressed peoples of the Ottoman empire–posed no real threat to the Turks. As much as I despise sell-out Lewis, I think his conclusion has some validity. Lewis, to me, is pettier wormling than McCarthy and Lewy. At least these two stuck to their guns as genocide deniers at all times. Lewis, on the other hand, at first described the Armenian massacres as “the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a million and a half Armenians perished” in the first two editions of The Emergence of Modern Turkey (1961 and 1968), but then altered the text to: “the terrible slaughter of 1915, when, according to estimates, more than a million Armenians perished, as well as an unknown number of Turks.”

     Reply

514. Monastras,    yeah? Have you  asked Lewy to answer your questions, or you felt no need to ask questions because Lewy’s distortionist account soothed your Turkish ears?

     Reply

515. Boyajian,
     you write: Ragnar, it depends on what you have solidarity for. If your
     solidarity is with truth and fairness for both sides, I’m sure no one can fault
     you for this. Comment: that is the kind iof solidarity I have. for truth and justice and those who honestly try to understand and judge what happened. That we may disagree is another matter.
     You write:
     But your apparent solidarity with those Turks (not all) and others (McCarthy,
     etal) who distort the truth, denigrate the Armenians, and deny them justice,
     casts a shadow on you. You can see this, can’t you?
     Comment:
     Again I feel you do not sort out questions of honest/dishonest attitude from
     those of true/false opinion. Besides, I read McCarthy as I read Dadrian: some  ting I agree with and something not.

     you write: You attack known, established, contemporaneous eye-witness accounts
     in support of what? You support modern-day, manufactured versions, skewed
     toward a Turkish revisionist viewpoint, because…?
     Comment: No, you have misunderstood. I have not been clear enough. The preface of this book (The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, published in 1916) made by Bryce is to my mind valueless in a research setting. The material, texts, letters, ect, comprise more than
     500 pages and is valuable, it has been published afresh in an edited version by
     Ara Sarafian. This is indeed a collection of contemporary testimonies and these are interesting and valuable. The section on the history of Armenians up to the year 1915, provided at trhe
     end of the book, is something else. I never saw anybody referring to it. But I
     have only looked a little at it. I prefer to read Hovannesian, Walker,
     Libaridian or Lang for general Armenian history.

     you write: Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with
     many here. This is not a personal attack against you, but what you do is a personal slap against the
     children of the victims.
     Comment: I
     understand that this is your opinion. I respect you but I don’t agree. We have
     discussed this kind of thing before.

     Last comment: Finkel tries to describe the disagreement on what happened in 1915. She does not go into the question, butshe presents arguments and even some documentation for the version of genocide researchers. I feel she is honest.  

     Reply

516. ragnar naess,    I do read in your comments what I already have decided is meant by you because I watched the video of your discussion at the University of Utah in tandem with infamous McCarthy and I read your comments in AW.  Your standpoints leave almost no doubt in my mind that you are a genocide denier working tirelessly to give justifications for Ottoman Turkish barbarism against Armenians.  The latest one is “Turkish siege mentality and paranoia.”  I cited Lewis to illustrate that mass extermination of the Armenians was not the consequence of Turkish overreaction or paranoia. Rather, it was a sober-minded, meticulously-planned destruction of an ethnic group, certainly not because a bunch of revolutionaries might have contributed to the “siege mentality and paranoia”, but because Turks realized that independent Armenia would have meant the dissolution of their state. They slaughtered an uninvolved people to become owners of their lands and properties: a classical act of genocide.
      
     Re:   “siege mentality and paranoia; paranoiac people overreact, they may even murder.”
     Anders Behring Breivik has become paranoiac about Norwegian multiculturalist society, about Muslim women walking in headscarves on Oslo streets, about salat al-fajr (morning prayers) lugubriously called for by muezzins in a Western society that’s not accustomed to Asian/Middle Eastern way of life.  This maniac obviously overreacted by murdering people who had no involvement whatsoever in the emergence or the target of his paranoia.  If you justify Turks’ “paranoia” against uninvolved Armenians that resulted in mass murders, it means you could justify Brevik’s paranoia, too?

     Reply

517. Ragnar–  sorry to say but YOU ARE AFTER YOUR BOOK and not JUSTICE… end of story…

     Oh by the way..you are telling Avery he is a bit harsh on Monastras??? HA….now that is funny…..is Monastras related to you? because honestly you are being a bit too oversensitive about the facts that are brought to you and to Monastras…there is no running away Ragnar.. you have to stand behind your statements…. and Monastras has not yet.. so until she does you know it will be reminded again and again.. asking direct questions and stating facts  is not being harsh.. it is being truthful and showing that denialists have no place on these pages…so don’t push YOUR luck Ragnar.. i know we let you overstay on these pages not because we want to.. but because we are polite and patient… remember that… 

     Reply

518. ragnar
     The whole issue isn’t armenian construction.armenians weren’t only people who fought against turks. But they had a special position which they shared the same homeland but they didn’t realized or ignored this. The answer to your question is from lewy’s book ” in eastern anatolia, too, as we have seen armenian assistance to the russians had been extensive.none of this can serve to justify what the turks did to armenians, but it provides the indispensable historical context for tragedy that ensued.given this context,the armenians can hardly claim that they suffered for no reason at all.ignoring warnings from many quarters,large number of armenians had fought the turks openly or played fifth column, not surpsisigly,with their backs against the wall,ottomans reacted resolutely,if not viciously”
     I can also give you ten to fifteen scholar names.they are all in the west.why do you not think that many scholars might have lined up behind the armenian scholars

     Reply

519. “Besides, I read McCarthy as I read Dadrian: something I agree with and something not.”
      
     Right. Has anyone ever seen ragnar naess’s citations from or referring to Vahakn Dadrian on these pages? Ever?
      
     “Finkel tries to describe the disagreement on what happened in 1915. She does not go into the question, but she presents arguments and even some documentation for the version of genocide researchers. I feel she is honest.”
      
     Right. Here’s what Turkey-based, “Daughters of Atatürk” award-given “honest” author Caroline Finkel writes on p. 535 of her Osman’s Dream: the Story of the Ottoman Empire, 1300-1923:
      
     “The 1948 Convention on Genocide outlaws the destruction ‘in whole or in part’ of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, ‘as such’. That terrible massacres took place on both sides (emphasis mine) is not in doubt; the devil is in the detail, and only generally disinterested historical research will establish whether the deportation and death of the Armenians of Anatolia constituted a genocide or not – if (emphasis mine) that is what to be determined. No ‘smoking gun’ has been found in the Ottoman archives, but this cannot be taken as evidence that no order was given.”
      
     Same, old denialist tale:
      
     (1)Massacres took place on both sides. Indeed, why would Finkel feel the need for a disinterested research on whether the deportation and death of the Armenians of Anatolia constituted a genocide or not? How about poor, unarmed Turks massacred en masse by Armenians? What did she receive her “Daughters of Atatürk” award for?!
      
     (2)Genocide is not what is to be determined. Why won’t Armenians just stick to the parcel of Turkish bosh and rubbish that Armenian deaths occurred during the war?
      
     (3)There exists no decree signed, sealed, and delivered from the CUP government to the provincial administrations, municipalities, village councils, the army, the gendarmes, the prisons who let the criminals out with a sole purpose of exterminating the Armenians.  No ‘smoking gun’. A whole nation of 2 million people has just vanished into thin air, evaporated, so to speak.
      
     Very “honest” of her, ragnar naess, isn’t it?  She’s “honest” because she’s your soulmate on the genocide issue, isn’t she?

     Reply

520. Wasn’t it Bernard Lewis who received a symbolic sentence of ‘guilty’ for denying the genocide in France?  As I recall, he refused to implicate Turkey on any level. If memory serves me right, he also refuses to equate the holocaust with the genocide, which says everything we need to know about him.

     Reply

521. Dear Vtiger, the information about Lewis is pretty well known.  In my copy of the second edition (reprinted in 1969) we read the following words (p. 356):  “… that ended with the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a  million and a half Armenians perished.”  [Bernard Lewis, The Emergence of Modern Turkey, published by Oxford University Press in London.]  I think it would be useful to get the first edition and compare.

     Reply

522. Ragnar, Gor made a very good point regarding Anders Breivik.  I am curious what you will answer.
      
     Also, thanks for responding to my post above.  

     Reply

523. As with Hitler, who needed more lands for the Germans and used conquest and genocide to get it, Talaat & Co. also ‘needed’ more lands to accomodate the ‘Turks’ they were importing from the Balkans. So, they too resorted to theft and genocide.  All those blond ‘Turks’ you see today came in from the outside and were given Armenian houses and property across Turkey. This isn’t some kind of fable, it’s historical fact.  Despite Lewis’s protestations and eloquent language, he is a denialist at heart – who also despises Armenians. He’s had a long life where he could have been conciliatory or apologetic, or even just said something nice about Armenians, but alas…that has not happened…just the opposite.   

     His contemporary, Dr. Howard M. Sachar, had a very different tone when he wrote several excellent chapters on the Armenians and the genocide in:

     The Emergence of the Middle East: 1914–1924 (1969) 

      

     Reply

524. Excellent Gor jan…

     Reply

525. gor
     my point here was to cite anybody. As for armenian scholars I have cited Libaridian and Sarafian, and always approvingly. I have also, I believe, cited, Kevorkian, anyhow I have worked write a lot with his book from 2006. Dadrian is indispensable regarding many aspects of the period of the tanzimat an onwards, but I never use him regsarding the main questions of 1915. When he talks about the “secret ittihadist conference” in march 1915 which is supposed to have “decided on the genocide” any freshman learning methodology can see that his writ is more or less pure conjecture.
     gor
     are you sure you are not jumping from issue to issue? my point was the following: I read any book to see if there is anything valuable in it. I mentioned McCarthy and Dadrian Your comment: have you ever cited Dadrian? This is another theme but it provides an impression that you are debating with me, or at least upholding the polemics. By tthe way, you stopped following my reasons why the massacres and ethnic cleansing of Bulgarians must constitute genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ in 2002. 

     Reply

526. I posted the following message on the thread following the AW article on Turkey decreeing to restore part of properties confiscated from christians.  The occasion for Gayane’s remark was Robert’s message that he had lost his brother who died from a heart disease. Robert apologized for many of the things he had said, but added that it was caused by him being censored (the same thing Monastras says, I dont know if you  ever wrote the editors, Monastras). In his last message Robert again criticised the Armenian position.

     gayane
     you write:
     AND YOUR LAST POST , WHICH MATCHES TO YOUR AVATAR ABOVE….ahhhhh.. guess the mourning period is over Robert…
     honestly, Gayane, what kind of style is this? You also start with the words: Ahhhhh Robert.. i was wondering when you will come back to your real senses…and whallaaaaa…..you did.. guess it is hard to break old habbits… I would like to take everyone to the memory lane and share the journey of your posts…to show the progression of how many avatars you used and the change in your style of writings…
     – Gayane, this not only is crude and cruel against a man who shares his pain having lost his brother to a heart disease in these pages. It is also – as I have said several times on these pages – an absolutely hopeless way to approach people you disagree with and whom you want to influence.
     Gayane: I disagree with Robert – whom you call “Robert the Turk”, but I feel your response to him here is like you are in some kind of frenzy. And it is undeserved for a man who has shared a personal loss on these pages. I dont believe in that style of debate

     Reply

527. Ragnar,  your post to me:
     Again I feel you do not sort out questions of honest/dishonest attitude from
     those of true/false opinion. Besides, I read McCarthy as I read Dadrian: some  ting I agree with and something not.
      
     Please clarify for me, what is the difference?  Do you mean that I do not distinguish between an honest question and one expressing doubt because of ulterior motives?   As you know, your “questioning” makes me uneasy.  To me, you are either knowingly or unknowingly easing the way for distortion of the truth to enter the dialogue.   It is as if you give ‘comfort to the enemy,’ which I find deplorable.    I don’t want to reward lies and deliberate denial of the truth by accepting them as valid ‘other sides of the coin’ when they are merely attempts to avoid accepting guilt.  The destruction to the Armenian nation caused by Turkey is undeniable, it was a crime that has to be paid for.  Do you agree?
      
      

     Reply

528. Robert-the-Turk: When “Robert’  concocted the story about him allegedly having lost a brother to heart disease, we Armenians gave him the benefit of the doubt.
     We believed ‘him’ when he wrote that  ‘he’ was a changed man, due to having (allegedly) experienced a very personal loss.
     Both myself and Boyajian expressed sincere condolences. And I do mean sincere.  Unfortunately, his subsequent posts and behaviour  leave no doubt that we were played.
     Apparently, only reason for that fabricated story was to stop us from reminding ‘Robert’ about his promise not to come back to @AW. He couldn’t freely spew his Anti-Armenian propaganda, because he was being reminded of his promise every time he tried to post.
     He needed to be able to again post @AW freely.  He needed  a way out of  the dead-end he had boxed himself into – so he came with that stratagem. We extended a hand of friendship, and he spat on it. Too bad:  it’s his loss.
      
     And we are also aware that  ‘Robert’ is more than one person – a group of Turks posting under ‘Robert’, with a main writer who concocted the dearly departed fairy tale.  So spare us.
      
      
     And before chiding Gayane about her posting style, clean up your own writing. You called Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’;  You  referred to our exterminated Armenian ancestors using terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’. Anyone who says that, has forever forfeit the right to criticize us about anything.  How much more despicable can one get calling our dead children and babies garbage in so many words ?
      
      
     Someone who writes that has not earned the right to criticize anything Gayane writes. Someone who is a decent, normal, fair human being would be ashamed to chide Armenians about  anything after calling them ‘inbreds’.  But we see this classic (mis)behaviour from Turks and their Turcophile cadres repeatedly.
      
     Nothing is beneath  them. They give themselves the right to call our exterminated ancestors trash, in so many words, yet have the gall to chide one of our own for exposing a deceitful, Anti-Armenian poster.
     Frankly I am impressed by the level of self-control and civility many of my fellow Armenian posters exhibit  towards someone who calls Armenians ‘inbreds’.
      
      
     And constantly bringing up the ‘debate’  baloney is a dead end: NO Debating the Armenian Genocide here.
     And no effort is or should be made to, quote, ‘influence’  Denialists: they are to be shouted down everywhere they ply their trade.
     We are way past the stage where we need to influence anyone about AG.
      
      
     PS: Gayane, please feel free to paste my response, or any part thereof,  at every thread where Ragnar-the-Norwegian has sprinkled his Magnum Opus.
     He has apparently developed an obsession with you: has copied his  critique of you  to about 5-6 different threads.
     I guess he wants the world to know he is displeased with you. Looks like you gonna get an ‘F’ from The Prof  this semester.
     Please don’t do anything drastic before you talk to us first. You have many friends here.

     Reply

529. On this thread I only saw you citing McCarthy and Finkel, ragnar naess.     An incomplete clause from a paragraph from Walker failed to support your outlandish argument that Armenians “led a fairly good life” in Ottoman centuries, because Walker is of exactly opposite opinion, as I demonstrated. My comment: “Has anyone ever seen ragnar naess’s citations from or referring to Vahakn Dadrian?” attests to the fact that on this thread you never cited any Armenian genocide scholar or non-Armenian non-denialist scholars, who are many.   And no, I’m not upholding the polemics with you. I’m haunting you, because I sense you’re a genocide denier and Turk sympathizer.
      
     “By the way, you stopped following my reasons why the massacres and ethnic cleansing of Bulgarians must constitute genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ in 2002.”
     By the way, you never laid out your reasons about massacres and ethnic cleansing of Bulgarians so I follow(?!) them. Or you meant Bulgarian Turks? If so, I believe I gave you—free of charge for your book—plenty of arguments as to why massacres of Bulgarian Turks did not constitute genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ. The major one being, I repeat, that Bulgarian Turks represented ethnically one of the warring sides in wars waged by Ottoman Turkey, hence they suffered atrocities. Rephrasing a popular saying: “All is ‘fair’ in war.” Since I noticed a tendency in you to snatch words out of the context or even post words never uttered by the Armenian commentators, I rush to stress: “fair” in quotation marks and with a gruesome feeling: nothing justifies killings of the civilians, but no war, unfortunately, passes them by if their ethnicity is the same as the combatants’. Compare their situation with the situation of uninvolved Ottoman Armenians and answer to yourself—with your hand on your heart—if the two situations—in terms of magnitude, scope, governmental involvement, circumstances on the ground, and deliberate intent to destroy a race—were similar at all.

     Reply

530. Ragnar, another thought:
     I guess I am saying I do not believe one can play the ‘neutral observer’ in such a situation.   You are looking down from your northern perch toward the south and observing the conflict between some hot and passionate types from the cradle of civilization and behaving as if you have the perspective to suss out what really happened 100 years ago.   As if the elimination of a people from their homeland is a confusing problem.  As if the crime doesn’t stare you squarely in the face.   As if ‘research’ will reveal the undeniable ‘smoking gun’.   Just look at the numbers from 1914 and compare them to today.  The truth is obvious.   A government permitted this destruction against its citizens, and that government must face justice. 
      
     Nothing wrong with trying to understand the times that birthed such destruction, or the motives of those who carried out these crimes, but this academic or intellectual understanding should not take precedence over humanity taking a hard stand against such acts.    Human beings who experience such inhumanity deserve compassion from other human beings and swift justice, not a cold treatise of one Norwegian’s opinion about what happened.

     Reply

531. Mersi Avery jan.. as long as I know du indz hing es tvel.. I could care less what our broken historian gives me… but then again.. what shall I do now that I got an F from Ragnar??? Oh my…oh wait… wait. wait..wait…….I BET my parents will be very proud of my F.. who was ever happy to get an F??.. but i am Avery jan.. I got an F from a Denialist.. this means I did my job right…:)  AMEN

     Thank you for commenting to Ragnar.. truly appreciate it.. don’t worry about me doing anything drastic.. i am not that type..:) but what I will do is this…

     Ragnar you ready to see the ENTIRE story?????? ok… be ready…

     Gayane     

     Reply

532. By the way, ragnar naess,    you never answered my question as to whether your justification of Turks’ actions as paranoia, overreaction leading to murder, in the case of uninvolved Armenians in Ottoman Turkey may also be applicable to any justification on your part of Anders Behring Breivik’s actions as paranoia, overreaction leading to murder, in the case of uninvolved Norwegians on Utøya Island?  I’m all ears…

     Reply

533. Gor, a little while ago mjm posed a question  @AW involving a thought experiment he conceived about the very same Breivik, the  ‘intent’ obfuscation, and such. I don’t remember the thread, so can’t check its progress. However, Boyajian indicated about a week ago that mjm‘s question had not been answered at that time. 

     Has it been answered since  ?

     Reply

534. Avery,    most of my posts are on this thread, and I don’t recall noticing his comments involving Brevik.  Maybe on other threads, but I wouldn’t know.

     Reply

535. Ragnar— as we all know you like to select and pick JUST the bits and pieces of our comments that suits your denialist and Turkophile self… admit it.. you know you do that.. we caught you many times..but it is hard to break old habbits…does not matter.. I am ok with that.. as long as we point that out everytime you try to pull something like this again…….

     You chiding me for being insensitive to Robert is a bit of insensitive on your part don’t you think??? why do YOU feel my actions are not appropriate when you yourself can’t face the fact you have done plenty of damage yet we allow you to post on these pages.. hmmm this does not scream being harsh and sensitive to me does it to you???? I am honored that you can’t get enough of me… truly do.. but let me TAKE YOU YET AGAIN to the memory lane…. to show you exactly what happened vs what you TRY to portray happened….

     This is my response to Robert the Turk’s sad story when he expressed the loss of a brother….
     I am sure you conveniently forgot to post this in your last comment to me right???
      
     gayane
     August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Robert … for a minute I thought I was reading someone else’s comment..such a contrast from your previous posts…
     I am sorry to hear about your loved one passing away.. It is always a tragedy to lose someone you love and close to you.. God knows, we Armenians know that feeling of loss and pain very well..
     However, I am just sad that something like this had to happen in your life to turn the tide around… all those times when a comment popped up by you.. it would have saved us great deal of back and forth if you only stopped and asked yourself…why am I doing this, why am I saying this .. why am I sharing such filth with Armenians… knowing very well what my people went through and going through was and is pure pain and unacceptable treatement…Well you learn from your mistakes I guess…
     Do not want to sound insensitive; however our reaction to your comments to some extent were justified regardless if they were a bit harsh at times..it was not done intentionally or with cruel intentions; however they were deserved…but in any case, enough said… i just hope that what you expressed here is not a simple decoy to deflate our annoyance with your past insensitive comments.. but truly a confession that maybe it is time for you and hopefully many of your friends who are still in denial to come out of their comma and understand what truly happened at a more deeper level .   
     Again, sorry for your loss…

     You see Ragnar… Armenians don’t jump to respond without acknowledging what occured.. but once you step on our toes, you will get what you deserve….similar thing happened with Monastras… you see, when you play the other as a puppet, we will catch you in your game..

     This is my second post following my first post above….pay attention to the bolded sentence…

     Gayane
     August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     I was a bit skeptical myself to read about such a revelation in Robert The Turk…. i knew it was abit too good to be true but i gave him the benefit of the doubt.. however, if he is pulling our leg with this story, he better not come back on these pages or else he will be called out so many times with such force on these pages, that he will regret playing with people like that… 
     Gayane

     Ragnar: you can see i was very nice; however at the same time i gave him a fair warning that if he is taking us as one stupid group of people, he will be reminded how conyving he is over and over……did I or did I not do that???   

     Now lets look at the change in his behavior RIGHT AFTER he posted his sad story…..make sure you have coffee when you read the thread because it might take you a while…..Thank you for your time…  pay attention how his tone changes from what he portrayed himself in his first few posts to the same denialist toward the end of the thread….. injecting with denialist statements at EVERY chance he got…. I am sorry Ragnar that you feel bad for MOnastras and Robert but the truth remains… well truth hurts.. that is first…also, my comments are absolutely justified and i guess when one decides to mock me and my ancestors and does everything to ridicule the memory of my family who was barbarically murdered by pretending to be an understanding individual, I WILL CALL THAT PERSON OUT.. so please spare me your polite and “civilized” manner Ragnar….. no one cares here.. anyway back to my point….

     I would like to take everyone on a journey and share SOME of Robert’s posts…to show the progression of how many avatars he used and the change in his style of writings…… I want to show everyone how creative, sneaky but yet how much of anger and denial still lives in him……..

     Robert
     August 20, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     Avery,
     It’d sure be nice if you knew what you were talking about! Armenia lives for handouts!! Must I remind you of Armenia’s economic standing (only Madagascar is worse)? Without my tax dollars going to one of the most corrupt and religiously oppressive nations on the planet, and also without the Russian military there to protect you (LMAO), Armenia would be the typical professional beggars that they’ve been for the past century! So cry me a river and read a book for once (not the typical ARF dashnak Armenian propaganda)!

     Robert
     August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     I very recently just lost my brother to heart disease. I’ve come to a point in my life that hate and this constant “one up-manship” is wrong. I still believe that we need to debate if we are to settle our differences and be able to come to terms and reconcile, but ever since my personal family loss, my feelings and outlook towards life have truly changed. It doesn’t matter whether you nor anyone else believes me. Life is too damn short to continue this nonesense. I guess what I’m trying to say to you, and to the rest of you on this site, is that I’m sorry for any smartass remarks I may have made, as well as any personal insults I may have said in the past. It was wrong and not a mature approach to deal with a complex issue. Sometimes, one’s feelings just well up from deep inside and come forth before one has a total grasp of those feelings, and translated into words that may be hurtful, ugly and/or misconstrued. I think that we’re all guilty of this to varying extents. If you all can forgive me for my past and recent transgressions, I certainly, and already have, forgiven all of you for your negative contributions as well. I believe that we all can be friends. I extend my hand to you all in burying the hatchet and taking those first important steps to becoming friends once more. I don’t mean to ramble (it’s not always easy to find the words one feels), but there it is. I’d be more than happy to come back to give positive inputs if so invited. If not, then I’ll understand and bother you no more (no grudges held either). Sometimes we all have to take chances in life!   

     Robert
     August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     To the editorial board:
     I’ve said/written some cruel and neagative things about you. For this I sincerely apologize. I have no real excuse other than the frustration of having my comments censored or deleted, and thus being unable to defend myself at crucial periods. Regardless though, those reasons are no excuse for some of the horrible things that I had written to you. It was wrong of me and I’m sorry.

     Robert
     August 23, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     Thank you for your kind words. I know that they were sincere. May we all strive to settle and overcome our differences and once again become the brothers and sisters God intended for us to be.

     ok.. from here on .. you can definintely see how Robert changed the writing style but in his core remains a denialist….tries to sway from what truly happened and gives and asks questions that have been answered numerous times and explained to him and denialists like him over and over again….sugarcoating thorns will not go well in any discussion groups where the truth is well known including the denialists and Turkophiles…AND when we all know how thorns feel..

     Robert
     August 27, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     HovsepM,
     You’re wrong in your assumption about me. I’ve already written that I wish to provide positive input for all parties, so that an amicable solution can be reached and agreed to by all. I have a lot of very recent personal pain to deal with, which has given me a new insight. Although I have not given up on my beliefs of historical facts (as backed up by my grandfamilies documentations and verbal accounts of that era), I also believe that all sides suffered………… This is why a historical commission is so important (comprised of both Armenian, Turkish and neutral scholars), to review all archives and hopefully get to the truth of what truly occurred. I don’t believe that only Turks should be portrayed as being evil (when you know as well as I do that crimes were committed by all), and thus be solely expected to provide an apology (what about an apology from the Armenian side for their actions/roles?). the Turks and Armenians living outside (e.g. Europe and America) don’t have a full grasp of what they feel in Turkey and Armenia. This is a major factor that constantly creates problems. They say that they’re happy and “wish that those living outside would stop causing trouble”. This goes for both sides! I for one feel that they’re correct. We who live here in the US need not stick our noses into their lives over there. Let them settle their issues! Perhaps then the NK situation and any other problem can thus be settled, (REALLY???? :my comment) with new freindship treaties between Turkey, Armenia and Azebaijan signed, creating cooperation in many areas (economical, scientific, cultural, etc.), with mutual advancement and peace in the region.          
      
     
     Robert
     August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Keep in mind that the more which is made of this, the more of a backlash it will provide when it comes time for settling the NK situation. Rest assured that Turkey, Azerbaijan and Moslems world-wide will NOT go gently into that good night! They will pay close attention to what PM Erdogan is doing AND what the reactions from Armenians and Greeks will be, and how they will reciprocate. My advice thus, is to stop grumbling for everything on the planet, and act like adults.
     Otherwise, you simply give impetus for what I mentioned earlier.

     Robert
     August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Once again, an attack on Turkey, Turks, Turkish-Cypriots!! First of all, the liberation of 1974 was NOT illegal! I’m not going to any further explination regarding this (since I’ve done so many times already). Secondly, I was on vacation in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic in 1983. Julio was performing there. He began to insult the Dominican people by saying how lower class they were as compared to pure Spaniards (like himself). This percipitated a massive booing by the audience, so much so that he was literally booed off the stage! This ought to be taken into consideration when his character is brought into question during the trial.

     Robert
     August 31, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     
     Note: I DID NOT INCLUDE THE ENTIRE COMMENT as it was long and just not educational enough…..

     Thirdly, before the Ottomans captured Cyprus, it was held by the Venitians for many centuries! The last time any Greeks had any possesion of it was during Alexander’s Empire! So, with just a bit more of research and a lot less racist comments by certain individuals (e.g. Gayane, Thomas, etc.), one can see what history plainly shows as the truth. I’m sure that the same will occur, with the establishment of the joint historical commission regarding Turkey and Armenia. Once all of the archives are researched, then we’ll all know the actual truth once and for all, allowing us all closure and the ability to move forward in peace!    My comment: REALLY???  

     Robert
     August 31, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Karo, Jay, et al,
     Since you bring up the UN Security Council, please check to see the four sections of violation which the Armenians committed (and still do) in regards to the demands of the immediate withdrawl of all Armenian troops from the NK region! If you’re going to play with fire, you better be prepared to get burned!  my comment: REALLY????

     Robert
     August 31, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Joseph,
     You state that Armenians were well off before the Ottomans set them back. Please then, tell us how the Armenians faired when they were under the yolk of the Byzantines! Don’t forget to mention how Armenians were litereally taxed to death, how the Byzantinian soldiers came and took whatever they wished at random, as well as the constant rapes and beatings (don’t forget the tortures and outright killings)!
     Alex,
     You state that 70% of Turkey is illiterate, and that we are lazy and can only steal from others! Before my personal loss, I would have had some choice retorts for you. But in your case, your comment is ludicrous that you’re simply not worth responding to. BTW, when you write the name of a nation, you capitalize the first letter (FYI).
     It’s truly sad that there are nothing but attacks here. Will there come a time when we can also discuss the properties of Molems (Turks, Azeris, etc.) in Armenia that have yet to be returned and/or compensated for? Just out of curiosity, would anyone tell me how many Turks and/or Azeris live in Armenia? How many Mosques remain in Armenia? Thank you.   

      TO ALL: The copies of the avatars do not show up on the posts but I want to ensure that each avatar used by Robert the Turk except the recent few comments have different style and different colors..
     Black and white
     Pink and white
     Red and white
     Purple and white
     Strawberry red and white

     Thank you

     Gayane  
      

         

          

     Reply

536. I am a Turk firs of al need to mention that I share the pain of all deaths either armenian or turksh durin this period. I believe that the armenian population in Ottoman are used by Russians are rench to fight against Ottoman and these caused a bloody battle between the two old fellows. This two nation lived together in peace during centuries untill the enemy comes and make two brothers enemy to each other. Russia and France are  primary responsible to what had happened. It is not solution to discuss the happenings during the war. Th question must be who made armenians to fight againg to his own country.

     Reply

537. Boyajian, do you remember the thread where mjm posed the Breivik thought experiment ?

     Reply

538. Those who are following the school of taught that simply there was a war between all nations including Ottomans and Armenians and there were some war casualties from both sides meaning one side was their Great 600 years old empire and the other side was Armenian children citizens of the opposite side. That is all. Another words, the cat never came out of its bag and therefore it never could cause any damage.
     The followings are undisputed facts:
     1. During these wars, there were living several thousand Armenian children
     under the protection of the Great Ottoman Empire.
     2. Almost all of these Armenian children were Christians.
     3. The Caliphate/Sultan/Empire of the Ottoman Empire declared Jihad/Holy War
     against all Christians including Armenian children. There was no exception in the said declaration.
     4. the Ottoman Empire deported these Armenian children, knowing very well that most of them are not going to make it.
     5. The Ottoman Empire managed to convert most of the survived Armenian children
     to Muslim.
     6. The Ottoman Empire/ Republic of Turkey decided to confiscate the graves of
     these Armenian children ancestors’ grave stones to pave their streets and use them in building the foundation of state buildings.
     Now, people like Robert expect from the Armenians to apologize for what Ottoman
     Empire has done to Armenian children. Because Turks have Turkish logic, I offer an apology on behave of all Armenians to Robert and to his friends so that they can all die in peace and go to….
     Note! The Turkish v. Armenian Issue is not a personal issue. It is a national issue.
     No one has right to downplay the gravity of the Ottoman Turks’ genocide against
     Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Armenian children. I am sure that soon or later I
     will leave this world, however, my ideology will survive for ever and beyond
     ever. Some people’s imagination is limited by idea of forever. Yet, there are
     people who believe to the idea of not only forever, but beyond forever. My love to
     my nation and my homeland will continue forever and beyond.   
     For more info see the article published by the Honorable Judge Ozsu, a sitting judge in Republic of Turkey.  Judge Ozsu writes “to state that we feel terrible regarding these events…. Those who died at that time were not our enemies, but our citizens. Some of those who died were children. No one can speak of children as enemies.”

     Reply

539. “This two nation lived together in peace during centuries untill the enemy comes and make two brothers enemy to each other.”

     Nuri, two brothers, two nations lived in peace, are you kidding us? Please read your history. Armenians were treated as second or sometimes third class citizens. Their testimony was not addmisible in Ottomans’ courts. They were taxed much higher than ordinary citizens. They did not have right to use saddle to ride a horse, and so on. Please read my post above and I would appreciate your reflection.   
      

     Reply

540. Nuri— you are absolutely detached from reality…  seriously??? you seriously pose a question as to who caused Armenians (capitalize when you are referring to a race/nation) to fight against his own country (i think that is what you said right?)  SERIOUSLY?? Are you seriously asking that question or you were just typing just to type some words…??

     First of all… NO ONE caused Armenians to fight against his country.. i am assuming you mean the Ottoman Empire correct??  because Armenians were NOT IN WAR with any of the countries.. but what they were doing is to TRYING TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM being slaughtered by your blood thristy ancestors….

     Second of all: where did you read such rubbish? please provide name, page, publication date ect… because i want to go and educate myself on this garbage as I did not know France and Russia made Armenians to go fight against Ottoman Empire when in reality it was the Ottoman Empire who planned a systematic murder of 1.5 innocent souls.. you did know this right??? wait.. who am I asking… someone who believes Armenians and Turks lived in peace like brothers for centuries.. CENTURIES..

     My friends did you know this??? we lived in peace with Ottomans who murdered us in 1894-1896 and again in 1909 and again in 1915 up until 1923.. and now murdering us with White Genocide… and the kicker of all this IS: we lived in such good terms with them for CENTURIES….lol oh my Goodness… can you, denialists please stop embarassing yourselves with such gargabe you put on our pages?? you guys icreminate yourselves as illiterate people .. please spare yourselves the embarassment and us the pain from reading such nonsense…

     Gayane

     Reply

541. Sorry, Avery, I don’t.

     Reply

542. Boyajian
     Yes, I am looking for the post of mjm, I have not found it, but as far as I remember he asked for Norwegian reactions to the crimes of Berivik. It would be good to see the post again because I believe he asked some specific question. I will answer if you find the post, but you might of course ask the question afresh from your memory. – Of course Breivik’s actions may also be part of a paranoia which we see in many Norwegians today: the belief that Muslims are taking over the country. Sure this is paranoia.
     Apart from this ‘neutrality’ is a strange word. My point is that one must look at a situation and analyse it. If it is a situation where somebody has been wronged, as in the Armenian cause, one must make up one’s mind and pronounce one’s opinion, if this is deemed necessary. I never claimed to be neutral, however, I point to mistakes and shortcomings in both the received Armenian and the Turkish version. This is a very naturla thing to do for outsoders. Then about ‘cold’ reasoning: if I only was interested in cold reasoning i would never be on these pages. — But what I see in many Armenian posters is disturbing: in the name of pain any assertion about what happened and any characterization of Turks is allowed. This does not apply to you personally, but part of the disturbing fact is that extremist viewpoints (Turks only massacred and created havoc since they came from central Asia – Turks want to take over Europe, and the like) is never corrected by other Armenians here  

     Reply

543. The problem is more fundamental…when a state or government pursues an undeclared, internal war against its own citizens, while using larger, international conflicts as cover, then something is wrong withing that society and within that ruling government.  We see the same thing happening today….outside governments are very hesitant to take steps to stop internal abuse, as it is most often seen as an internal, domestic matter.  From the 1890s to 1915, very, very few Armenians actually ‘revolted’ or participated in subversive activities. Yes, some did, but the vast majority, living in cities, towns and villages across the empire were hard working, productive citizens until the day they were dragged out of their homes. They were fearful of a government that had gone over the edge and was seething with a new anti-Armenian hatred.  Until 1907, Armenian women could not leave the empire, but in that year, it changed and the floodgates opened.  Entire families left their ancestral lands, having sensed that another catastrophe was imminent because of ongoing raids and attacks on Armenians.  This seething, however,  was really just another outward expression of lust for Armenian land, businesses and bank accounts, because they thought that would solve their multitude of problems brought onto the empire by endless war and the push by Germany to grab the oil sitting under Ottoman-occupied lands.  The attempt to blame Armenians for their own demise is another creation by the anti-genocide propaganda machine. If Armenians can be blamed, so can others who have been subjected to genocides, or holocausts.

     The Turkish attempt to redefine Armenian self-defense as ‘revolt’ that required a genocidal response, is a rewriting of history and needs to be confronted head-on.  Perhaps an opening is being created now inside Turkey to allow the truth to rise to the top?  We can only hope – as it will benefit both Turks and Armenians.  If it’s difficult for Turks to see Armenians as something other than revolutionairies, then it’s even more difficult for some Armenians to see Turks as something
     other than mass murderers. This is the essence of the problem. The burden of changing this dynamic rests with the representatives of the larger, more powerful party – the one that commanded a massive imperial army that was in bed with imperial Germany at the time.  

        

          

     Reply

544. Correction Nuri:  Some Armenians fought against Turkey, not all.  Some fought with Turkey.   Those who fought Turkey did so after a series of broken lies by the CUP who had promised reform and self-determination to the Armenians, after years of massacres and abuse of power under Ottoman rule.  You can’t blame Russia and France for that.  You can’t blame these small pockets of Armenians for wanting to live as free and equal men so much that they were willing to fight for it after social and political avenues failed to provide it.  And you can’t blame pockets of rebellion for the deportations ordered by the CUP that eliminated a people from their homeland.  That was inhumane genocide.

     Reply

545. Gayane, you supported your viewpoint—you’ve done a fine job. 
     Now can we please stop flattering ‘Robert’ with all this attention?  ‘His’ recent change of heart did not increase his compassion for Armenians, nor open his eyes to the moral responsibility that his nation has to ours.  He has not fundamentally changed his beliefs, other than to try to be less caustic in his words.  I am pretty sure ‘he’ is not a single person, but a committee of contributors, and that committee may need to have a meeting to get their story straight.   We need to use our fighting energy wisely and not squander it on a committee designed to annoy us.  I could be wrong…but I don’t think so. 

     Reply

546. Boyajian
     You write:
     Ragnar,
     your post to me:

     Again I feel you do not sort out questions of
     honest/dishonest attitude from

     those of true/false opinion. Besides, I read
     McCarthy as I read Dadrian: some ting I agree with and something not.

     Please clarify for me, what is the difference? Do you mean that I do not
     distinguish between an honest question and one expressing doubt because of
     ulterior motives? As you know, your “questioning” makes me uneasy
     Comment:
     the difference is between saying “I disagree” and saying “I don’t trust you”.
     What I have in mind is what I have been saying many times: many of you have a
     tendency to interpret divergent opinions as symptoms of deceit. I do not
     acknowledge that I use deceit. I forward opinions. Sorry if this was not clear
     from my side.
     The Turks
     have a considerable moral debt to the Armenians, as I have said several times.  Actually Talat Pasha concedes that many
     perpetrators were not prosecuted for political reasons. This is, to my
     knowledge, is acknowledgement of criminal responsibility. Turkish spokesmen
     have said that the ittihadists did what they could to secure the relocations of
     Armenians, but I do not accept this. They have the burden of proof that they
     did what they could. The Turks have to admit more and give more. In my dealing
     with this issue this is my bottom line.
      
     Monastras
     The Turkish
     policies at the time went much further than just neutralizing the Armenian
     guerilla movement. Armenians were deported from areas far from the war zones,
     so the aim was more than just countering the guerilla movement.  Further I agree that there are quite many
     scholars who doubt the views of the genocide scholars and the Armenian
     historians. I have counted some  40.
     Gayane
     I  did not read your first post to Robert after
     he told about his brother. I agree that you are more forthcoming in this post.
     My apologies.  But still I react to your
     later posts. I believe you should have reacted differently, not by irony and by
     using the expression “wallah”, this means 
     taking a disparaging view of his religion.
     Gor
     The analysis
     of the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria follows the same logic as the ICTJ reasoning
     applied to the Armenian case. The first question is whether the group is a
     protected group according to the Convention’s definition. Since “Turks in
     Bulgaria” obviously is a subgroup, one might object to their being a protected
     group. But the ICTJ speaks about “Armenians in Eastern Anatolia”, which also is
     a subgroup, sp the same must go for the Turks in Bulgaria.
     Then the
     ICTJ speaks about “acts”.  Has the
     group  been subjected to the type of acts
     mentioned in the definition?  The obvious
     answer is yes in both cases. In both cases perpetrators were “killing members
     of the group”, “causing serious bodily or mental harm”, and “putting people in
     life endangering situations”.
     About the
     intent, the I CTJ  says that the most reasonable
     conclusion to draw is that at least some of the perpetrators understood that
     their actions would lead to the destruction in part or in whole of the group,
     as such, or acted purposely towards this goal and thus had requisite intent.
     Now to my
     mind  this applies to the treatment of
     the Armenians in 1915-16, but it also applies to the Turks in Bulgaria, because
     of the pattern of massacres on Turkish civilians (and also Jewish, by the way),
     which led to people fleeing in panic in autumn and winter time. As said some
     250.000 died som 20-25% of all Turks in Bulgaria.
     So the
     reasoning applied by the ICTJ to the Armenians also applies to the Turks in
     Bulgaria. Your counterarguments, that they were ”occupiers” or “ belligerent party”
     is not valid.

     Reply

547.  ‘I am pretty sure ‘he’ is not a single person, but a committee of contributors,…’
     You are pretty right Boyajian. You are not wrong. They are.

     Reply

548. Ragnar you write:  “…many of you have a tendency to interpret divergent opinions as symptoms of deceit. I do not acknowledge that I use deceit. I forward opinions. Sorry if this was not clear
     from my side.”
     The problem is that your divergent opinions happen to echo the deceitful propaganda manufactured by Turkey to justify what they did to Armenians as necessary security or defensive measures in response to Armenian insurgency.  Women and children were never a threat to Turks, yet they were targeted for deportation and massacre by the CUP authorities.  Turks have subjected Armenians to such lies and distortions in order to avoid facing justice for almost one hundred years and most Armenians can smell this offensive propaganda coming before it rounds the corner. 
     
      
     You also write to Monastras:  “Further I agree that there are quite many scholars who doubt the views of the genocide scholars and the Armenian historians.  I have counted some  40.”
     Please tell me how many of these forty are not Turkish or employed by Turkish universities or institutions.  Could you provide the list
      
     And to Gayane:  “I believe you should have reacted differently, not by irony and by using the expression “wallah”, this means taking a disparaging view of his religion.”
     Not sure you got this right.  Didn’t Gayane mean Voila! not wallah.   Or am I wrong?
      
     And finally, I disagree with your assertion that the fate of Bulgarian/Balkan Turks can be used as any kind of justification for what was done to Armenians, regardless of how you interpret the ICTJ findings.  Turks may have suffered in Bulgaria, but not at the hands of the Armenians, and their taste for revenge is not defense for attacking innocent women and children on such a massive and thorough scale.  It is “unmoeglich” or inconceivable that such a suggestion is entertained by educated, humane people.  Only a Turkish apologist would seriously assert such a defense for brutality.

     Reply

549. Boyajian: further clarification: you say my questioning makes you uneasy. Needless to say, on these pages I almost always question the points made by Armenians or those supporting the genociode thesis. Now questioning can be taken as harming people if I question what they think is right.  To my mind this need not be so. Many will develop their convictions and be stronger in their convictions, producing better reasons or more integrated emotional attachments to their views by being questioned. While I hope that Armenians will in time share some of my views, I also hope that many of you will be strengthened in your beliefs and convictions. This is an ideal in any serious debate, I believe. In this way, questioning is a good thing, and needless to say is part and parcel of scholarly method.

     Then you ask: dont you question Turks? Go and question Turks! The answer to this is that I do question Turks. My recent trip to Turkey was one long discussion where I expounded my views and questioned their views, even if  they heard me say many things that they agreed with. However, like in my debates with Armenians, the points where I disagreed attracted their attention most, even though they were pretty much intent on being polite.
     In the pages of AW I have also tried to debate with Turks, my comment to Monastras is the last example. I would like to dicuss more with Turks on these pages, but I admit I have not been very sucessful in it. Needless to say I have to ask myself why this is so. Is it because I unconsciously approach the people who are victims in some sense or other, possibly because it makes my own position more secure (this may happen to many who chose to work with the less privileged, like refugees which you maybe remember I do)? Is is because I am asked a lot of question from Armenians which I feel  I should answer so that the disagreement rather than the agreements are constantly being demonstrated in actual writ? Is it because I feel people I disagree with are entitled to a protest, a sign of respect (in my work I see a lot of Norwegians who have a great inhibition against saying unpleasant things to people with victim status in some way or other, e.g. immigrants and refugees, because 1) they are afraid to have the label “racist” thrown at them, or 2) because they know that these people have problems and you dont say bad things to people in trouble even if it is needed (by the way in the management training I do with a psychologist friend we agree that the most needed trait in leaders in human reseouce development os the ability to give feedback which both criticizes shortcomings in a clear way and also supports the person.) You are a psychologist, Boyajian, if you have any advice about how I should do it besides the demand that I should agree with you, I will be grateful.

     Reply

550. Ragnar, its a family matter.  After the sustained 100 years of Turkish assault, first through massacre and then through malicious foreign policy, denial and fabrication, that has deprived us of a proper mourning, healing and recovery, Armenians have developed a mistrust for most things Turkish—even when it comes from a non-Turk.  Perhaps we have developed a protectiveness for ourselves and our compatriots that results in a tendency not to criticize each other in public, and to look the other way when deeply felt hurt causes one of us to behave crudely.  We extend this compassion to one another because we know the hurt at the root of it.  You can’t apply the same judgment you hold against paranoid Norwegians who fear the unknown, against Armenians who know their enemy very well.  And again, don’t forget to distinguish disgust and anger against a government and its policies from animosity toward the common Turk.  We do.

     Reply

551. Ragnar, our responses and comments are not quite in sync…
      
     Regarding the value of honest criticism for growth from a psychological point of view:  I agree that people learn from this and it can be valuable.  But you miss the point.  Arguing whether or not historians have gotten it right in what they write is not the main problem.  The evidence of the crime is undeniable and the guilt of the CUP government is indisputable.  The details are interesting but not necessary for the pursuit of justice.  Turkey has a debt to us.  I don’t insist you agree with my viewpoint.  I insist that you not help Turkey avoid justice by giving validity to smokescreens.  I ask you to take this interesting academic pursuit up to the tower where it belongs and leave it there for a while.  Help us to simply receive justice.  It seems you are too close to Turks and their sense of being offended by Armenian accusations to understand the damage that their insensitivity to Armenians has done.  You get lost in the details and forget the main question:  Who will pay for this destruction of a people?

     Reply

552. Boyajian

     It is a family matter.This is the key sentence.  You never want to listen what we say and what these some 40 people say and How we can call the sequence of the events. regardless of how your family member suffered personally.The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.
     Ragnar
     I will answer your question later as I am rushing now 

     Reply

553. No, you dont.

     Reply

554. 
     
     ‘Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust’

      This  is the key sentence. And it is an insult to the memory of the victims of the Armenian Genocide.

     Reply

555. Monastras writes:  The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.
     Close, but not quite.  We desperately want Turkey to admit its responsibility, apologize and offer reparations for what was lost.  A nation was virtually wiped from its homeland.  This is a crime, not an accident. 

     Reply

556. Dear Lolo,belated many thanks for info regarding the 2nd edition of Bernard Lewis’s The Emergence of Modern Turkey, published by Oxford University Press in London where he mentions (p. 356):  “… that ended with the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a  million and a half Armenians perished.”
     I wish Joseph as well could pass me the info on the 1st edition.
      

     Reply

557. Monastras writes:  The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.

     You got something else wrong!
     It is wrong to speak of what happened to the Armenians as ‘defeat.’   Your nation’s government turned on its own citizens and targeted them for deportation and destruction.  Yes, there were pockets of rebellion among Armenians who sought freedom from Ottoman oppression, but the vast majority were simple, hard working and INNOCENT, women, children, and elderly who were a threat to no one.  Your Ottoman ancestors forced all these people from their homes and marched them to the deserts without provisions or protection from attack along the way, confiscating all the property that these people were forced to leave behind.  This was not a civil war!  This was a government gone mad, engaging in a heinous criminal act, under the cover of war, that resulted in the death of over 1.5million people and the virtual elimination from the land of a people who had occupied it throughout historical memory. 
      
     Perhaps you are proud of that?  Your CUP ancestors accomplished what countless other conquerors of the Armenian Highland never did:  Genocide.

     Reply

558. boyajian
     no, I dont agree with you. My picture of the road to justice fror Armenians is different from yours. To my mind my input with the book is also a necessary perspective and not an ivory tower pursuit. Maybe you are right and I am wrong, but I dont think so. I will try to answer you more in detail later.

     Reply

559. boyajian
     you write
     Ragnar, our responses and comments are not quite in sync…
      
     Regarding the value of honest criticism for growth from a psychological point of view:  I agree that people learn from this and it can be valuable.  But you miss the point.  Arguing whether or not historians have gotten it right in what they write is not the main problem.  The evidence of the crime is undeniable and the guilt of the CUP government is indisputable. 
     comment:
     I assume that when you write  about historians getting it right or not right, and that this is not important, you are talking about unimportant details. Right? I have written several times that this is also my opinion. That is I agree with your formulation. Yes the evidence of the crime is undeniable and the guilt of the CUP government is indisputable. But I disagree that one must not say anything more. If you envisage a discussion with truth-seeking Turks which ends with a majority of Turks agreeing with the above, it totally unrealistic to imagine that details will not  be commented upon, will not be important in this sense. The question will be: What is THE CRIME? Genocide? In what sense? this discussion you probably will never evade if you really discuss with Turks.
     you write:
     The details are interesting but not necessary for the pursuit of justice.  Turkey has a debt to us. 
     comment: What do you mean by “necessary”? I agree if you say that generally speaking the CUP committed a crime, and that it is important to make Turks realize this. But if you believe that it is necessary just to repeat this opinion and not go into details, I disagree. Se above
     you write:
     I don’t insist you agree with my viewpoint.  I insist that you not help Turkey avoid justice by giving validity to smokescreens. 
     comment:  We are maybe not able to discuss in a good way. To my mind, I do not help Turkey to avoid justice. on the contrary. By insisting on untenable arguments you assist Turks to get off the hook. Even If you have a just cause, if you overdo it and use bad arguments, you get into trouble. And I dont give validity to smokescreens as far as I can see. Partly I go into details because I answer questions. Please remember this. I answer questions. Partly I point to instances where Armenians at large have fought with untenable arguments. Remember the discussion on proving genocidal intent in the ittihadists. Remember the disciussion on the Andonian papers. I was the one who insisted that the main message should be that a great crime was committed, and that the Turks have a moral and material debt. It was msheci, if I remember correctly, who asked me to specify what crime.  Whether it was genocide by intent or  crime against humanity is to my mind not so important. The main thing is Turkish responsibility.
     You write:
     I ask you to take this interesting academic pursuit up to the tower where it belongs and leave it there for a while.  Help us to simply receive justice.
     Comment: I totally disagree with you. First and foremost books are important. I have used years discussing with Turks, it is time I write a book. I am not an academician. I left the University, then I reft a research institute to become a consultant. I am a practitioner. I used lot of time to work for human rights in Turkey and in other places. People who fight for something very often write books about it, and they rightly do so to my mind.
      
      
     You write
     It seems you are too close to Turks and their sense of being offended by Armenian accusations to understand the damage that their insensitivity to Armenians has done.  You get lost in the details and forget the main question:  Who will pay for this destruction of a people?
     Comment:
     I have answered this earlier. Please answer my argument: . I partly answer questions which must have detailed answers. Partly I point to instances where I believe, rightly or wrongly, Armenians at large have fought with untenable arguments. This is important isnt it?  Did I ever introduce any details unless prompted by questions? Or what do you have in mind when you say that I u8se to much time with details? Can you give me an example?
     Let us stop here for the time. Do you agree?

     Reply

560. “First and foremost books are important. I have used years discussing with Turks, it is time I write a book.”
      
     Have you used years discussing with Armenians or conducting research in Armenian, German, Austrian, Russian, British, French, Swedish, Greek, and the US archives and repositories for your book to be an objective, unbiased, non-Turkic centric account? Have you done any field research outside Turkey? Have you travelled to Armenia instead of gathering information from AW pages? If not, how can you be sure that your book will have any value for understanding the great crime against Armenians, for justice they’re pursuing worldwide, and not just another denialist crap à la McCarthy or Lewy?

     Reply

561. “Further I agree that there are quite many scholars who doubt the views of the genocide scholars and the Armenian historians. I have counted some 40.”
      
     How many more genocide scholars, historians, lawyers, anthropologists, ethnographers, Nobel Prize laureates, foreign parliaments, local parliaments, international organizations, professional associations, and human rights groups have you counted that agree unequivocally that Armenians were targeted as a ethnic, national, and religious group in a premeditated and deliberate scheme for exterminating the race? Also, how many in those 40 you’ve counted are not stationed in Turkey, received scholarships or awards or were otherwise funded by the Turkish government or groups to produce denialist and distortionist accounts? Enumerate them, and I’ll be glad to refute them one by one so the world knows how they sold their souls and academic integrity to the Turkish Lira. I’d be glad to do this for the cheap types like Monastras, the author of ‘Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust’ and other Turkish denialists posting on these pages.

     Reply

562. Boyajian

     We understand that Turkey is your enemy. Do you always expect your enemy to treat you fair and well? I very much doubt that the Turkish people think that they have a debt to pay to you. Can people be removed from their hometowns or villages? Yes they can be removed including women and children if they pose threat to the national security.The same thing was done in the early 90s in Turkey. Thousands of villages were emptied because the terrorist groups were attacking military outposts or soldiers and finding shelter in these villages and moreover, the authorities couldn’t identified who is guilty who is innocent. The problem was the same in the beginning of the century. You have the wrong information as you say it was only pocket of resistance against oppression. Let’s be honest, It was nationalism . It was a heavy violence carried out against the country in the name of creating Armenia in the Turkish soil(never say the Armenian high land). Revolutionaries were active even in the remote towns. The authorities rightly thought  a general uprising were imminent with the help of the Russian army. Have you ever asked yourself why Armenians were deported but Greeks weren’t deported even though they occupied far more valuable land in the western Turkey and in the black sea region? They were far richer than Armenians.These are Just phony stupid reasons. Is the reason still not clear?

     Ragnar
     Yes some Armenians were deported even though they were far away from the war zone.The Local governors and the army commanders played an important role to make a decision rather than the central CUP. This doesn’t alone show the intention of CUP as I said the local factors had a greater contribution. remember, Cup tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to ceased the deportation but they couldn’t, for this reason , they issued orders one after another to stop the deportation which means the communication was poor.Revolutionaries created havoc in every part of the country. The support for the Russian army was widespread among the Armenian population. Perhaps the difference became unimportant between Armenians and the Russian army in the eyes of  some local authorities. Therefore we can not rule out that some local authorities might have used this opportunity  to get rid of the root of the local revolutionaries which were the local Armenian communities. But again remember why Greeks weren’t deported from the same areas. You must also  think that why Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo Armenians were never deported. You must put everything in a big picture and decide. Avery was spot on when he said Turks removed Armenians from the Eastern Anatolia(Avery never say the Armenian High Land) otherwise they were going to go back to Mongolia. What this means is basically they were going to carry on their struggle  until they kick the Turks out.

     Reply

563. “The analysis of the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria follows the same logic as the ICTJ reasoning applied to the Armenian case.”
      
     Who conducted this ‘analysis’ and whose ‘logic’ does it follow? Refer us to an organization or an authoritative body of experts, please (spare us from McCarthy, for Christ’s sake). If the atrocities against the Turks in Bulgaria, who represented one of the sides to a war, follows the same ‘logic’ as the ICTJ reasoning applied to the Armenian case, then why these particular atrocities were never granted a resolution by ICTJ as in the case of the genocide against Armenians?
      
     “The first question is whether the group is a protected group according to the Convention’s definition.”
      
     This is not a question at all, because the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide does not give definition of a ‘protected’ group per se. It simply identifies “a national, ethnical, racial or religious group” as a group that the genocide law comes to protect. Therefore, your incessant attempt to juxtapose the case of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, who clearly represented a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, and Bulgarian Turks, who were a segment of an ethnic party to a war (Ottoman Turkey), is not valid.
      
     In both cases perpetrators were “killing members of the group”, “causing serious bodily or mental harm”, and “putting people in life endangering situations”.
      
     First of all, there were no ‘perpetrators in both cases’ per se. In the Armenian case there clearly was the perpetrator: the government of the Ottoman Turkey vs. its own population. In the case of the Bulgarian Turks, there was no perpetrator, because both Russian troops/Bulgarian freedom-fighters and Ottoman/Bulgarian Turks represented two parties to a war. If you consider a party to a war a perpetrator, then not only Russian troops/Bulgarian volunteers were one, but Ottoman/Bulgarian Turks were the other, too. Both of them represented two warring sides, not perpetrators of massacres of an uninvolved, detached from war zones people.
      
     “About the intent, the ICTJ says that the most reasonable conclusion to draw is that at least some of the perpetrators understood that their actions would lead to the destruction in part or in whole of the group, as such, or acted purposely towards this goal and thus had requisite intent.”
      
     Actually, the ICTJ applies four elements to the Armenian case, not just the intent, namely:
     (i) the perpetrator killed one or more persons;
     (ii) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; (iii) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and
     (iv) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction.
      
     Out of these four, element (i) does not apply to the Bulgarian Turks at all, because Russian troops/Bulgarian freedom-fighters were not perpetrators of killings (Oxford English Dictionary: [perpetrator]: someone who has committed a crime, or a violent or harmful act); they were parties to formal wars declared and waged by and against Ottoman Turks. Element (iii) also does not apply, because Russian troops/Bulgarian volunteers did not intend to destroy, in whole or in part, the Turkish group. This particular group was affected as part of military actions in which it represented a warring side. Any analysis of the fate of Russians and Bulgarians murdered by the Turks in those wars? Are you concerned with their fate, as much you’re concerned with the fate of Bulgarian Turks? Element (iv) is absolutely irrelevant. There was no manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against the Bulgarian Turks that could itself effect their destruction. Wars and inevitable wartime atrocities cannot constitute a ‘manifest pattern’ by definition.
      
     Your attempts at juxtaposing the two cases—one having occurred during a war in which Turks were a belligerent party and Armenians were not—are laughable. Furthermore, your attempts at finding justification for Ottoman Turkish barbarism against the Armenian people because of the Turks’ wartime losses—in manpower, civilians, and in abandoning the occupied lands in the Balkans—which in no way were caused or remotely assisted, or aggravated by the Armenians is a sheer attestation of Turkish apologism, lacking sober judgment and absolutely unfounded as such.

     Reply

564. “Of course Brevik’s actions may also be part of a paranoia which we see in many Norwegians today: the belief that Muslims are taking over the country. Sure this is paranoia.”
      
     And??   If you justify Turks’ barbarism against Armenians as manifestation of paranoia, which Armenians on the whole never caused or aggravated, and overreaction leading to murder, do you justify Brevik’s terrorist actions, too?

     Reply

565. Gor,

     So, according to you then, anything written by anyone who researches extensively and presents the facts for what they are, is a “a la crap” denialist. Is that about the jist of what you’re trying to get across? If so, then anything that is anti-Turkish is a well written book by a scholaraly author, while a book that has factual materials in it which may or may not put Turkey into a better light of justice (things that you just don’t want to hear and will not even consider) is simply denialistic crap! Please correct me if I’m wrong here. Also, since you mention a list of Nobel laureates, scholars, lawyers, commissions, etc. as supporting your case of a genocide, then why is it that for the past 20 years, not one of you have ever agreed to having an open forum debate with full media coverage? I have, in other story sections, detailed an excellent format structure as to how this could easily be accomplished. It would be fair and neutral! If you’d like, I’d be more than happy to presnt my plan for a structured and fair debate process. Just let me know.   

     Reply

566. When did  ‘Avery’  allegedly  ‘said Turks removed Armenians from the Eastern Anatolia’  ?

     Avery kindly requests Ms. Monsatras to provide the citation (thread, post, date, etc).
     Avery doubts very much that he would have used the made-up artificial term ‘Eastern Anatolia’ in place of the historically accurate and beautiful  term ‘Armenian Highlands’ or ‘Armenian Plateau’ in any of his posts.
     Did I mention that I love using the term Armenian Highlands ? It’s so beautiful and poetic.

     re: ‘It was a heavy violence carried out against the country in the name of creating Armenia in the Turkish soil’ 

     There is no so-called Turkish soil on the Armenian Highlands. 
     Turkish soil is about 3,000 miles East of Armenian Highlands.
     Turkish soil is near their – Turkic  Nomadic Tribes’ –  acknowledged birthplace around Altai Mountains and Mongolian Steppes, which BTW is about 3,000 miles East of the Armenian Highlands.

      

     And Avery further reminds readers that the author of the post that objects to my use of the historically accurate term Armenian Highlands, is an Anti-Armenian Denialist Turk who has said this:

     ‘Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust’ (Monastras, posted @Hurriyet)
     

     Reply

567. Monastras, I am so sorry to see that you are getting more extreme in your views.  Nothing you asserted above justifies the murder of 1.5 million people.  In the end, it is still a crime and Turkey is still guilty.  Are you truly that cold-hearted that you feel no remorse for the death of innocent children?  Is your animosity against Armenians so great that you are unable to see that Turkey made no effort to discern who was a threat and who was not, and treated all Armenians as undesirable trash?  Do you not see the injustice in this?  You point to recent examples of emptying villages as if taking such action is good social policy, not inhumane governmental over-reaching.  This is lawlessness carried out to purge the land and confiscate property, not necessary security measures.  How can you believe such lies?
      

     Reply

568. Those who justify Ottoman Genocide against Armenians must read this post.
     In a letter dater the 26th February, 1915, written by Enver Pasha to the Armenian Bishop of Konia, the former says: ” I avail myself of this opportunity to tell you that the Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman Army conscientiously perform their duties in the theatre of war, as I can testify from personal observation. I beg of you to communicate to the Armenian people, whose perfect devotion to the Ottoman Government is well known, the expression of my satisfaction and gratitude.”  Source: Germany-Turkey – and Armenia published in 1917.
                                         London. J. J.
                KELIHER & CO., Ltd.
                                                                        1917.

     Reply

569. gor
     I am reading as much as I can. My bibliography is now some 20 pages. The resolutions are mostly very short and do not provide any explanations. And I am hoping to go to Armenia. Since 2007 I have been discussing with Armenians, it provides me with a picture of the thinking of the Diaspora. Mccarthy is very well appraised in the last book by Erik Zurcher, that is his work on demographics. his “Death and Exile” has always been highly appraised. – The logic of ICTJ is a common logic, you are invited to use your own logic to point to why the ICTJ handling of the Armenian case doesnt also cover the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria in 1877-78. Guenter Lewy is too dogmatic, he wants to show that there was no genocide. I want to point to the burden of proof both on the Armenian and the Turkish side. I do not claim to have the truth. Hopefully this will contribute to a better debate. But from my discussions with Armenians I also have advice about how to argue and what to do. And I have criticisms. And I have also communicated with  people I  respect among the Armenian participators on the pages of AW.

     Reply

570. Monastras
     Thank you for your post. The idea that it was the valis that relocated Armenians outside of the immediate war zones is completely new to me. I will send you an answer in some time

     Reply

571. gor, boyajian, gayane, 
     And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians. The Turks must go into it honestly and offer apologies, and repairs must be made. That is why I show the video of the youths singing in  Sourp Khatch at the end of my lecture and exhort my students to adress Turks about the issue, IN THE MOST ACCURATE WAY

     Reply

572. “And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians.”
      
     Yes, we came to know your bottom line, ragnar naess., as we came to know your futile attempts at justifying Ottoman Turkish barbarism against Armenians. Your bottom line is a Turk-skewed half-truth. Even in a sentence above you don’t have balls to acknowledge that every crime has its specific denomination. Therefore, a generic “great crime” must be called by its proper name: the genocide.

     Reply

573. Sorry, Robert,    I have a difficulty understanding your bizarre English and the idea behind it. Could you ask someone with better command in English to help you rephrase your post?

     Reply

574. ‘But from my discussions with Armenians I also have advice about how to argue and what to do’
      
      
     Really now (!): Armenians need advice from a Anti-Armenian Turcophile on how to argue and what to do ?
     Lord have mercy: the breathtaking self-important display of  arrogant superiority, wrapped in layers conceit,  is just dripping from the pages: ‘…advice about how to argue and what to do’   ?
     I mean, if there is a better sample of the patronizing attitude of this Turcophile  individual towards Armenians, I’d like to see it.
     What’s next: “PM Erdogan gives valuable  advice  to Armenians on how to go about getting the Armenian Genocide recognized by Turkey” ?
      
     It shouldn’t be surprising though coming from someone who has called Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’  and has referred to our murdered ancestors using language normally reserved for referring  to garbage or detritus  – ‘disposed of’.
      
      
     What is surprising to me is the infinite patience shown by some of our magnanimous compatriots towards this individual.

     Reply

575. Ragnar, I don’t have the luxury of time to address each of your points today, but I am glad to know we agree:
     “And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians. The Turks must go into it honestly and offer apologies, and repairs must be made. “
     You and I (and others) have gone around in circles for some time now, which is confusing, since we seem to have the same bottom line.  Where exactly do we diverge?  Can you please list concisely what you think I don’t get and your main complaint with Armenians.    Sometimes I have trouble following your points.
      
     Briefly, I want to mention that I don’t object to the idea of you writing a book.  I don’t know how to be more clear with you about this.  I simply have a problem with you buying the phony Turkish lokhum and treating it as if it is legitimate, and consequently helping them to avoid justice.  I look to fair minded, human rights activists like yourself to recognize the travesty, not only of the genocide, but also of its long denial.  The denial must be addressed and disputed each time it occurs.  It is an evil in and of itself.  And when you entertain arguments designed to blame the victim, you are allowing yourself to get too close to that evil.  That is my issue with you.  What is debatable here?   Does Turkey have a debt to pay or not?   Do we really have to play this game of polite appeasement to those who insist on living in denial of a terrible crime.  I can only tell you that it sickens me at the deepest level to hear these lies and distortions and hear otherwise humane and moral Turks turn a blind eye to the tragedy that befell the Armenians.  
     More later…

     Reply

576. ragnar naess,    you can read secondary sources as much as you can, but, as you may or may not know as a practitioner, main building blocks for learning about and interpreting the past are not just secondary sources, but primary and visual sources, first and foremost. Of these, primary sources are firsthand of historical events or issues. Thus, my question: have you ever examined the primary sources existing in the Armenian, German, Austrian, Russian, British, French, Swedish, Greek, and the US archives and manuscript repositories? Have you done an absolutely necessary for any respectable scholarly account fieldwork in the geographic area of your research interest? From your response I understand that you neither worked in the archives nor ever visited Armenia or Armenian genocide research centers in the US, UK, and elsewhere to get to know the survivor accounts or eyewitness accounts. A ‘picture of the thinking of the Diaspora’ is important, but it is not a historical category per se. Rather, it is a psychological category.
      
     Please don’t insult my intelligence by your remarks re: Justin McCarthy. How come that the only scholars that you think are ‘very well appraised’ (same phrase was used for Caroline Finkel) are those who are considered genocide deniers? It only confirms that, based on your views on the Armenian genocide, they are your soul mates, however, in the real academic world ‘McCarthy and Denialists, Co.’ is widely described as a scholar on the Turkish side of the debate. Because his Death and Exile denies the genocidal nature of the Armenian massacres and forced deportations, he has often faced harsh criticism by many other scholars who have characterized his views as genocide denial. If you were able to look at McCarthy’s views disinterestedly, which I know you can’t, you’d laugh at his main idea that mass murders of the Armenians were part of a civil war(?!), triggered by World War I(?!), in which equally(?!) large numbers of Armenians and non-Armenians died. Many respectable scholars consider McCarthy’s views a child babblement. Do you really consider this denier, who served in the Peace Corps in Turkey in the 1960s, taught at Middle East Technical University and Ankara University and later received an honorary doctorate from Boğaziçi University, and is a board member of, and received grants from, the Institute of Turkish Studies, an unbiased scholar? Would a truly unbiased scholar lend support to the Assembly of Turkish American Associations, which led an effort to defeat recognition of the Armenian genocide by the US House of Representatives in 1985?
      
     McCarthy’s Death and Exile has always been the subject of criticism from book reviewers and genocide scholars. According to Israeli historian Yair Auron, McCarthy, in tandem with Heath Lowry, Bernard Lewis’ successor, leads the list of deniers of the Armenian genocide. He has been accused by Colin Imber, the author of The Ottoman Empire, 1300-1650, of following a Turkish nationalistic agenda. McCarthy uses arguments similar to those found in Jewish Holocaust denial. Historian Mark Mazower considers McCarthy’s sources and, in particular, his statistics to be far less balanced than those of many other historians working in the area.
      
     I don’t know about Erik-Jan Zürcher’s appraisal of McCarthy’s work on demographics, but I know that Zürcher has always pointed to the existence of many corroborating documents supporting the Andonian Telegrams assertion of core involvement and premeditation of the mass killings by the central Ittihadist members. This is fundamentally opposite to what McCarthy bloviates in Death and Exile that positions Zürcher far from the numerically insignificant camp of ‘scholars’ on the Turkish side of the debate.
      
     Also, the notion of the burden of proof is virtually alien to Armenians. We don’t need to prove to ourselves that we, as a people, were mass exterminated. It is the same as saying to the Jews that they have ‘the burden of proof’ that they were killed en masse in the gas chambers.
     Based on your views on these pages and those expressed during a discussion with your BFF McCarthy at Utah, as well as serious breach in your research on primary sources and non-existence of fieldwork, I’m afraid your work may be just another denialist account, positioning you as Number 41 in the list of denialists who doubt the views of the majority of genocide scholars and the Armenian historians, that you have counted. Such an imperfect account cannot, by definition, contribute to a ‘better debate’. BTW, you seem to have missed the train: Armenians and the increasing number of various foreign  bodies have already passed the debate stage. There are new realities on the ground.

     Reply

577. Since an inquiry of mine was ‘very politely’—in an untypically Nordic European, but rather typically Turkish way—left unanswered, I’m compelled to repeat it.
      
     ragnar naess,  you admitted that “of course Brevik’s actions may also be part of a paranoia which we see in many Norwegians today: the belief that Muslims are taking over the country. Sure this is paranoia.”

     And??…   If you justify Ottoman Turks’ barbarism against Armenians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction, leading to murder, in which Armenians—in their prevailing majority—never figured in causing or stirring up being far from the war zones, do you justify Brevik’s terrorist acts, too?

     Reply

578. Oh boy oh boy… when Gayane has been away and Robert and them company are out to play… well i am hurt.. i missed all the fun.. but no worries.. i am here now.. :)

     Ok.. we will start with Ragnar…

     Ragnar… you stated in your September 2nd post

     Gayane
     I  did not read your first post to Robert after
     he told about his brother. I agree that you are more forthcoming in this post.
     My apologies.  

     My comment: Apology not accepted.  This is exactly what you do Ragnar…. YOU select what you want to select to present to the group but in reality you neglect to acknowledge the entire text… THIS my friend shows how manipulative you are… YOU could have read the entire thread; which clearly had MY comments right AFTER Robert’s in the same discussion forum.. but you did not.. so you can keep your apology … I do not accept..

     But still I react to your
     later posts.
     My comment: I don’t really care whether or not you react or do not react…

     I believe you should have reacted differently, not by irony and by
     using the expression “wallah”, this means 
     taking a disparaging view of his religion.– 
     
     My comment:
     Ragnar.. not only you are absolutely wrong in your observation but you also confirmed how manipulative (unless it is pure ignorance or stupidity) you can be….I personally DENY any relation my word has to Robert’s religion (no matter how much I disagree with that religion…) … PLEASE do me a favor and read below… Even with the misspelling of the word (Boyajian thank you for providing the correct spelling of the word to Ragnar and clarifying for him what it truly meant because apparently he was too disturbed by my post)…one can clearly make out the meaning of the word “whallaaaaaaaaaa…” NOT “wallah” as you referred to it Ragnar.. (two different spelling and two different meaning).. but then again, YOU yet AGAIN omitted my entire sentence did not you??? well I am providing it to you…..pure evil on your part..
     Gayane
     August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Ahhhhh Robert.. i was wondering when you will come back to your real senses…and whallaaaaa… you did.. guess it is hard to break old habbits…
     
     Ragnar it seems to me that you hang on to my every word and try to do everything to make sure I look like someone I am not. at every turn… don’t you?? you take what you want from what I write and turn the situation where I come off atagonistic and insensitive… THAT my friend is false defamation of my character and I absolutely forbid you from doing so going forward… I am going an extra step further.. I ask you to apologize to me right now for falsified information about me on these public pages because you voluntariliy took upon yourself to defend Robert and them denialists pack by using partial and non-related words to your advatange as well as to hurt my credibility on our own pages… you HAVE NO RIGHT to take my words and use it against ME without proper quotations and with their full context… only those with mean streak and evil agenda would do something like that…. SHAME ON YOU RAGNAR…

     Gayane

     Reply

579. Monastras– don’t you have any shame?????  

     You said:
     You never want to listen what we say and what these some 40 people say and How we can call the sequence of the events. regardless of how your family member suffered personally.The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.

     My comment: Well did you listen to what we have asked of you numerous times??? I am guessing NOT because my friend Avery would not have pointed in his September 3rd post the fact that you have insulted the memory of my ancestors with this insensitive statement written by you on your Turkish discussion forum…see below

     {Guest – Monastras
     2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
     (posted @Hurriyet)
     

     So until you fess up or deny such an insensitive and Anti-Armenian statement, everything and anything you say will be NULLED and will be thrown out …. the end…

     Thank you

     Gayane

     Reply

580. Gor jan you said: Have you used years discussing with Armenians or conducting research in Armenian, German, Austrian, Russian, British, French, Swedish, Greek, and the US archives and repositories for your book to be an objective, unbiased, non-Turkic centric account? Have you done any field research outside Turkey? Have you travelled to Armenia instead of gathering information from AW pages? If not, how can you be sure that your book will have any value for understanding the great crime against Armenians, for justice they’re pursuing worldwide, and not just another denialist crap à la McCarthy or Lewy?

     WELL SAID my friend.. Well said…..just so that you know…we have asked Ragnar the same thing many times over but his response has always been vague, nonconclusive and tend to always go in tangents vs having answered with direct sponses….just like he did in his September 5th post

     “I am reading as much as I can. My bibliography is now some 20 pages. The resolutions are mostly very short and do not provide any explanations. And I am hoping to go to Armenia. Since 2007 I have been discussing with Armenians, it provides me with a picture of the thinking of the Diaspora.
     OR this:

     “I want to point to the burden of proof both on the Armenian and the Turkish side. I do not claim to have the truth. Hopefully this will contribute to a better debate. But from my discussions with Armenians I also have advice about how to argue and what to do. And I have criticisms. And I have also communicated with  people I  respect among the Armenian participators on the pages of AW.”

     
     

     Reply

581. Monastras– you are the epitomy of neo-nationlist and hard core denialist… you don’t even hide it and are so proud of it too…. you are a sad sad individual…

     Robert- same goes to you.. .now which Robert wrote your comment??? I am assuming 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th… ect

     Reply

582. Ragnar you said:

     ragnar naess
     September 5, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     gor, boyajian, gayane, 
     And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians. The Turks must go into it honestly and offer apologies, and repairs must be made. That is why I show the video of the youths singing in  Sourp Khatch at the end of my lecture and exhort my students to adress Turks about the issue, IN THE MOST ACCURATE WAY

     My comment: so you believe showing a video that is not done or written or filmed by you to Turks will fix the issue???? No sir.. .the issue will not be fixed unless you fix within… so you sharing things like this, you think you will make us fall on your feet to say thank you??? to believe you???? you are not serious are you??  it is not about what you try or want to do.. it is about what NEEDS TO happen in your head and heart if you want to change Turks minds….

     Seriously.. why do we even bother???

     G

     Reply

583. gor
     thank you for your patience. …and the bottom line is genocide, you write. Yes, I read your words, but we are far beyond this point now. I explained many times what I have in mind. I will come back to you. But I believe you have not gotten into the question of what kind of reasoning the ICTJ exhibits, and what this implies if you apply it to other examples of mass killings and destruction of ethno-religious communities, or subsections of such communities. Besides, you never commented on the fate of the Circassians  

     Reply

584. gor

     earlier I have said that Turkish civilians in Bulgaria in 1977-78 were not belligerent parties. They were civilians. Unless you comment on this I see no reason to comment on your post. If we decide this question of the status of the Turkish-Bulgarian villagers we can go on. But anyhow thank you for your comment.  

     Reply

585. gayane
     good to hear from you, and to see that you are fit for fight. I will answer more later, but now only this: no, I have not gone into “the archives” apart from browsing through some German archives which are on the net. To my mind scholars go into archives with definite questions, or hunches or hypotheses. I hope to go into archives on two very definite questions, that relate to the question of genocidal intent in the upper echelons of the CUP. I will come back to the question of how you related to Robert. 

     Reply

586. Boyajian

     good that we agree on something. But I believe that even if people are united in the belief in some words, a formula, they may interpret it/them in different ways. I will return to this. About criticisms of Armenians on the pages of AW, let us take one question at the time. My point number one: I experience Armenians in the AW as too negative in their view of the Ottoman Empire as a whole. I gave some examples  recently.  This is in line wioth what Karekin has been saying. I believe this negative view is both incorrect, and also not conducive to good dialogue with truth-seeking Turks.

     Reply

587. Let’s not kid ourselves, I know full well that 600 years of Ottoman rule on top of 300 of Seljuk and 200 of Arab was not all fun and games. No one enjoys being conquered and ruled by others….just ask any Afghani.  However, there were some definite benefits for Armenians during that timeframe.  However, that’s not the question, which really should be how does Turkey rectify the huge amount of human and historic damage done to the Armenian world of Asia Minor from 1915  onward?  They are solely responsible.  One step will be acknowledgement and recognition, next will be apology, and then the return of properties or compensation (interestingly, this has started in a small way) and then perhaps an invitation to diasporan Armenians to come to their homeland, at the very least, for a visit.  In most cases, they will see ruins of their former homeland and their ancestor’s lives, but if the government can finally allow the word ‘Armenian’ to be used, in the same way the Spanish use the word Arab at historic monuments in Spain, Armenians will feel and Turks will see, the massive contribution they made to that land over the last 4000+ years.  It has been denigrated long enough. If Erdogan is serious, the time for a fundamental change is now, not later.  As a famous celeb once said, ‘Just do it’!!!  
       

     Reply

588. No, thank you for your patience, ragnar naess.    And the bottom line, I write, is genocide, yes, otherwise the world governments would have kept acknowledging burglary that Turks committed against Armenians. I could care less what you personally have explained as to what you have in mind with regard to the Turkish crime, but it is universally accepted that crimes should have their specific denominations. For instance: ‘theft’, ‘burglary’, ‘rape’, ‘murder’, ‘genocide’. I take the reasoning of the ICTJ as applicable to a specific crime committed against a specific people. Neither I nor you are in a position to freely, at will, apply it to other examples of mass killings and destruction of ethno-religious communities, or subsections of such communities. Had such examples represented a genocidal extermination based on ICTJ’s four points, I see no reason why ICTJ wouldn’t have applied them to other similar cases.
      
     Earlier I have concurred that Turkish civilians in Bulgaria in 1877-78 were not belligerent parties, but they were civilians, I commented more than once, who ethnically represented a belligerent party: Ottoman Turkey, waging wars with another belligerent party that had its own civilian population. As in any wartime situation throughout the history of the mankind, as sadly as it may be, civilians, ethnically belonging to one of the belligerent parties, do suffer atrocities in war situations. I offered, I believe, not mentally burdensome comparison with the situation of the Ottoman Armenians who were slaughtered en masse on their government’s orders while not being a civilian segment of any belligerent party. Besides, you never commented if you justify Anders Brevik’s killings of innocent, uninvolved people just as you justify Ottoman Turks’ barbarism against innocent, uninvolved Armenians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction leading to murder. Whenever you answer this and other questions you were asked above, I’d gladly comment on the Circassians.

     Reply

589. “Armenians [are] too negative in their view of the Ottoman Empire as a whole.”  Now, ragnar naess,    are you mocking us? An indigenous people lived for millennia on their native lands when warrior nomads appeared, then colonized them, and then made them second-class millet. Then colonizers physically exterminated this people and turkified traces of their rich cultural legacy. What views, if not too negative, do you expect Armenians to have after being oppressed that led to massacres and genocide? I believe it was Avery who put it very well: even if Armenians—mostly Constantinople-based, not rural Armenians who were the majority—were able to do relatively well while being oppressed, they did this despite the Turks, not because of the Turks.

     Reply

590. ragnar, you write quote:
     I hope to go into archives on two very definite questions, that relate to the question of genocidal intent in the upper echelons of the CUP Unquote
     If you are chasing this subject seriously enough you must go to the Ottoman archives (vipers nest) & make your research there & see what is available & what is not.It is very well documented what has evaporated.
     A former Turkish ambassador by the name of Zeki Kuneralp, had a different explanation, according to him “The liabilities of not publishing the historical documents outweigh the advantages.”
      

     Reply

591. VTiger

     thank you for your comment. I note that Taner Akcam holds that the existing Ottoman archives, that is those that catalogued and opened to historians are sufficient to prove his points. 

     gor

     Are you sure you do not harbour a romantic projection of peaceful Armenian millennia? By the way,  we adressed the question of whether Turkish villagers (men,women, old people and children) were civilians or belligerents, didnt we?      

       

     Reply

592. Ragnar— the bottom line is you are someone who is a hidden denialist…. so why don’t you just come out (even though you showed your true colors on numerious occasions) and admit YOU love and support the denialists with everything you got…. YOU contribute to the White Genocide by emerging yourself in small and unnecessary information (for what??? to blow smoke at everyone’s face??) , YOU are someone who will do evil at any cost (speaking from experience… and i am referring to your posts), YOU will hide behind some line of undone actions to show your fakeness, YOU are not someone we trust, YOU are someone who is too close to Turks/Turkey, YOU are someone who will take one’s word and twist it to your advantage, YOU will never be someone we will believe… end of story….

     and you still owe me an apology for twisting my words and making me look like someone I am not… talk about hatred toward someone… don’t you think you are being two faced here???

     Until you do the research as Gor suggested, you will not be taken as someone with credibility to speak intelligently about the OTTOMAN TURKS GENOCIDE AGAINST EASTERN AND WESTERN ARMENIANS… period….but we very well know what you will continue to do… continue reading and practicing the voodoo that the Turkish govt is provided…

     Gayane

     Reply

593. Gor jan– thank you for your patient with Ragnar.. thank you for always providing strong and valid facts …..Ragnar ust does not see the fact that he is in deep mud.. and he tries so hard to get out by throwing posts just the heck of it… amazing that he is still have the audocity to open his mouth after such embarassing exposure on how manipulative and evil he can be…

     Reply

594. Ragnar— you said

     good to hear from you, and to see that you are fit for fight

     Spare me your welcome… also, why would you say fit for fight??? why would YOU assume that when I am posting on these pages, it is automatically a fight between you and I…… has it EVERY occured to you that when I post, I want to refute all your lies and show the world that no matter how you approach the issue of me being insensitive or inappropriate, it will never achieve its goal?? and in order to do that, i will comment and point out your shortcommings and obsession to the denialists….. if you are stipulating my presence on these pages stirs up a fight, then it is your problem but please use your words wisely RAGNAR because you are beginning to annoy alot of people…. and frankly I am tired of you and your mafisto to the world as the historian and humanitarian.. (fake that is)…

     Gayane

     Reply

595. yes, ragnar naess,     we did address the question of whether Turkish villagers (men, women, old people and children) were civilians or belligerents, but the conclusions we drew were different, in case you didn’t notice. To me, the fates of civilians, who suffered atrocities in a war because ethnically they were a segment of a belligerent party and civilians who suffered genocidal extermination ethnically not being a segment of a belligerent party, are obviously different. Turkophiles, however, tend to bring up the two unmatched fates in an attempt to juxtapose them to show that Bulgarian Turks, too, suffered genocidal extermination. No, they didn’t. As in any war situation in the history of the mankind, as sadly as it may be, civilians, ethnically belonging to one of the belligerent parties, do suffer atrocities. War atrocities against the civilians and a deliberate genocidal annihilation of civilians belonging to a particular national, ethnic, and religious group by their government, with the intent to destroy them as a race, are divergently different and incomparable instances. It is idiotic to try to justify the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-23 by the war atrocities that Bulgarian Turks suffered in the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 or in the First Balkan War of 1912-13. In neither of those wars did the Armenians loom on the horizon. By the way, you didn’t answer if you justify Brevik’s killings of uninvolved people just as you justify Ottoman Turks’ genocide of uninvolved Armenians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction leading to murder, did you?

     Reply

596. Ragnar, you apparently have little understanding of the effect of denial of a heinous crime on the victims of that crime.  If you had more understanding you would not be so quick to criticize Armenians for their sometimes harsh appraisal of Turkey and the Ottomans.  I can’t imagine that you can write a book of significance without looking into this, because the denial is the equally heinous second phase of the original crime of genocide.  You seem to lack the awareness that for many Armenians the genocide has not ended because now after our lands were stolen and our ancestors murdered, our history has been denied and is being erased.  This is an assault on identity.    Do you deny a person or nation’s right to defend themselves from such attacks?

     Reply

597. ‘Voila,’ Gayane is back and madder than ever!
      
     Couldn’t agree more with you Gor.  I am so impressed by your diligence and knowledge.  I learn so much from you.
      
     Ragnar, I am still hoping for a concise statement from you regarding what you think Armenians are missing or getting wrong about Turks.  Please state it.  Fill in these blanks if you like:
      
     1.  What Armenians fail to understand about the genocide is______________________________ .
     2.  Armenians were wronged and deserve acknowledgment but ___________________________.
     3.  Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_________________________________.
     4.  Armenians deserve compensation for their losses in the form of________________________.
     5.  What Turks don’t understand about Armenians is___________________________________.
     6.  Turks deny the genocide because_______________________________________________.
     7.  I am writing a book about the Armenian genocide from the point of view of ______________.
     8.  What I hope to accomplish with my book is________________________________________.
      
     I was wondering, does anyone else here have that deja vu feeling?  I feel like I am on a merry-go-round viewing the same scene over and over again.
      

     Reply

598. Boyajian, you are definitely  on a merry-go-around. 

     (“This is like deja vu all over again.” Yogi Berra)

     Reply

599. Or another suggestion for him, Boyajian.   ragnar naess,  you stated on several occasions that you’re writing a book about the Armenian genocide. At one time you said as a ‘junior historian’, at another as a ‘practitioner’. Whatever capacity you’re writing the book in, I assume you’ve gone far beyond Introduction and Bibliography, and are already composing chapters of it. If so, and if no publishing rights are jeopardized, would it be possible to share the Introduction part with us? I believe this will give us enough grounds to conclude once and for all as to what objective you wish to accomplish with your book.

     Reply

600. I concur Gor jan.. I would love to see that introduction as well…good point…

     Boyajian jan–  can’t express my frustration with this man anymore.. he is truly pushing my buttons.. but it is ok.. let him.. he will get the same back…Great break down for Ragnar.. I am assuming he needs everything chewed and fed to him if he is going to expose himself to the world.. either a true denialist, true Turkophile, or simply a confused man…

     Oh.. and you are very right about merry go around… because as we have experienced the same thing over again with Ragnar in the past, I am not surprised at all that he is doing the same thing now.. this is his amo… this is what he is set to do.. confuse EVERYHING and anyone … it is his game… his signature… we know it and know it well… you wait and see… a bit more of pushing back, he will come up with an excuse to leave these pages… he will dissapear and then come back with the same logic and ammunition.. don’t know why but that is what I feel…

     Gayane     

     Reply

601. Gayane

     I am sorry if you experience my remarks as lack of respect. However, I also suggest you look into the way you formulate yourself sometimes.

     gor

     I believe the feeling of merry go-round partly is a result of the fact that we never conclude TOGETHER on the single facts or assertions we discuss. We should decide what we agree on and what we do not agree on regarding the single points. I have suggested that you and I conclude the discussion of whether Turkish villagers in Bulgaria in 1877-78 (women, older, people, children and also men not inrolled in the Ottoman army) were belligerents or civilians who were protected by the ordinary laws of war. As said earlier, I find it pointless to go on unless we can agree on this. 

     Of course one can ask what ios the relevance of this for the question of the Armenian Genocide. I can explain my views on this, but I’d like us to conclude the first point first.

     Boyajian

     thank you for your constructive questions. I will answer as soon as I can 
         

                

     Reply

602. ragnar neass,    the feeling of merry go-round was expressed by boyajian, not me. As for concluding on single facts or assertions together, you do understand, I hope, that we’d be most likely unable to do so jointly because you use irrelevant facts or assertions as excuses for Turkish genocide of the Armenians. Not only is this an unscholarly approach, but it is also a disreputable behavior on the personal level. Therefore, I can only unilaterally conclude the discussion of whether Turks in Bulgaria in the 1877-78 war were belligerents or civilians. This conclusion was made clear to you on many occasions; so many that other posters are having déjà vu and feel they are on a merry-go-round.
      
     Although the ordinary laws of war must theoretically protect the civilians, in no war waged in the history of the mankind was the civilian segment of a belligerent party left unharmed. But to compare atrocities suffered by the civilian segment of a party to a war with the deliberate genocidal extermination of civilians as a race in a no-war situation by their own government is unintelligent and absurd. Turkish villagers in Bulgaria in the 1877-78 war waged between Russians and Turks represented a co-ethnic civilian segment of a belligerent party: Ottoman Turkey. Therefore, as happens in any war waged by the humans, these civilians suffered atrocities. Was it a genocidal extermination of the Turks as a race, as in the case of the Armenians? No, it certainly wasn’t. That’s why ICTJ resolution refers to the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, not the Bulgarian Turks. Whatever Turks suffered in the hands of other peoples (not to mention how much sufferings Ottoman Turks themselves brought to the peoples of Asia Minor, Middle East, and Europe) is absolutely irrelevant to the Armenian question, because Armenians were not the ones who inflicted pain or posed a threat for the Turks.
      
     Now, do you wish to give tit for tat and unilaterally conclude on the assertion you’ve made earlier on paranoia and overreaction that could lead to murder? You justify Ottoman Turks’ genocidal extermination of innocent Armenian civilians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction that leads to murder. You admitted that Anders Brevik’s terrorist killings of innocent Norwegian civilians, too, were a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction that leads to murder. Do you justify them?

     Reply

603. The reason most civilized countries have abolished the death penalty is that there always exists the danger an innocent person might be executed by mistake, and this would constitute a crime committed by the state.  It would be murder. So, entire governments *unfortunately, not the US)  have stopped the practice in order to avoid such an event.  The reason the CUP approach to its Ottoman Armenian citizens was criminal at the state level is that in an effort to root out the few agitators, it condemned to death more than a million non-combatants of a specific ethnic group, and destroyed an entire culture on its own land. It the holocaust was a crime, then the Armenian genocide as carried out by the CUP was exponentially worse. This cannot be denied. Despite the causes and the sad outcomes, we need to ask what will be done in the future?  Will this discussion take place inside Turkey?  Maybe it already is?  Returning properties to the Armenian community is a start, a baby step, but where will this lead?  If anything, this should be encouraged, not as the end-all solution, but as a first step in the right direction. Yes, there is a long way to go…no question, but often the best way to motivate any reluctant party to do the right thing is to encourage good behavior, rather criticize it.  Plus, any positive steps need to be cut in stone, so there can be no turning back and they can be built on and expanded over time.

       

           

     Reply

604. Ragnar- like I said.. YOU lost your priviladges to speak or address me in any way, shape or form because you have been caught red handed and were called out.. so there is no room to wiggle yourself out of this one… no matter how much you twist things around to make things sound differently than it is….. and like I said keep your “sorries’ because no one is interested…

     Have a nice confused day sir 

     Reply

605. Monastras
     You write: Yes
     some Armenians were deported even though they were far away from the war
     zone.The Local governors and the army commanders played an important role to
     make a decision rather than the central CUP. This doesn’t alone show the
     intention of CUP as I said the local factors had a greater contribution.
     remember, Cup tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to
     ceased the deportation but they couldn’t, for this reason , they issued orders
     one after another to stop the deportation which means the communication was
     poor.
     I have been
     looking at several important sources, mainly those by Turkish authors who
     espouse the general Turkish view, and I can nowhere find any references or
     indirect allusions to this two-stage relocation process: 1) deportation from
     the war zones initiated by “central CUP”, and 2) from other areas initiated by
     local governors and army commanders, in spite of decisions on the part of “Central
     CUP”.
     I have
     looked at halacoglu’s article “The realities behind the relocation” (“the
     Armenians in the late Ottoman Period”, Turkish historical association 2001),
     and there is no mention of this.In the 1000 page work “Osmanli belgelerinde
     Ermenilerin sevk ve iskani” (the relocation and resettlement of the Armenians
     in Ottoman documents) published by the prime ministry archives in 2007, there
     are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
     Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
     any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
     against the government.  For instance the
     entry 197 – letter of September 17, 1915 from local authorities to the ministry
     of interior, states that the Armenians of Eskishehir and the environs have been
     deported.  But there is nowhere in these
     documents, as far as I can see (there are short summaries in modern Turkish for
     each letter, which is given in Ottoman, both transcripted and in facsimile of
     the original) any traces of conflict between local leaders and the government.  But the book contains a number of the letters
     about preventing atrocities and massacres of Armenians, which Turkish
     historians regularly provide to “prove” that there was no official intention of
     massacre. Whatever one believes about this, a contribution like that of
     Halacoglu does not contain any references to the large number of testimonies of
     Germans, Swiss, Austrian and US citizens, let alone all the testimonies of Armenian
     survivors who give the same picture, that is all those who saw the deportation
     at close range, and concluded that the only reasonable explanation for the
     policies was that the government had embarked upon a policy of extermination.
     The lack of references to this literature makes articles like that of Halacoglu
     worthless as documentation. So the appraisal of the CUP policies in the face of
     the accusations of genocide must start with a sober appraisal of all those who  witnessed the events, not only refer to those
     that support the received Turkish version.

     Reply

606. Ragnar
     I will answer your question as soon as I can

     Reply

607. Is it not ironic that  two Anti-Armenian AG Denialists are using a forum provided by an Armenian online weekly to debate and attempt to demonstrate which one of them is a more sophisticated and dedicated denialist. 

     I don’t know if we should be flattered or disgusted.

     Reply

608. Is it not ironic that an anti-turkish poster are able post the below comment to a conservative turkish paper? In my opinion, definitely not

     Avery , 07 September 2011 , 19:16

     In addition to returning confiscated Armenian properties, the State of Turkey should start planning and putting aside funds to compensate the Armenian people for the extermination of 2 Million Armenians (1895-1923), and the return of occupied Western Armenia and Cilcia to their rightful owners – Armenians. After that Turks and Armenians can live in peace as good neighbors. After all we have so much in common. It is unfortunate that Seljuk Turks decided to leave their ancestral homelands around Altai Mountains and invade the Armenian Highlands about 1,000 years ago, thus displacing the indigenous Armenians who had lived there for 4,000 years by that time. However, we need to move forward. Time for Turks to pay the debts of their predecessors ? since the modern State of Turkey assumed all the liabilities and debts of the Ottoman Empire when it assumed all its assets, both liquid and illiquid, including real estate(today’s zaman)

     Reply

609. My post above @TodaysZaman was in response to one by a Turk familiar to AW readers. Here is what he said:
      [necati , 06 September 2011 , 01:22 returning the properties of non-Muslims without agreement on returning ottoman properties in Europea , Armenia , Iraq, syria, Africa is a betrayal to martyies who sacrified their lives from 1000 years ago.]
      
     Here is the link: http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-255732-on-the-law-to-return-the-property-of-non-muslims-and-yesterday.html
      
     Right –  “martyrs” who “sacrificed” their lives  invading the lands of others; exterminating unarmed Armenian civilians, women, children, babies.
      
      
     And as to being Anti-Armenian vs. Anti-Turkish: There is no moral equivalency in being a Denialist Anti-Armenian and Anti-Turkish.
     Denying the Armenian Genocide, as Ms. Monstras has done, is not equivalent to Avery requesting that the State of Turkey return  ill-gotten properties to their rightful owners.
      
     If that makes me Anti-Turkish, then I am Anti-Turkish.
     And for the record, I hereby re-affirm and stand by every word in my post that Ms. Monastras so kindly pasted above.
      
     And finally, I invite Turk readers to read my post at the end of this article:
     http://www.todayszaman.com/news-256052-woman-attacked-by-deceased-husbands-family-while-under-police-protection.html
     The first and only post at the time, BTW, and by an Anti-Turkish Armenian at that.

     Reply

610. Monastras,     And??  What is it that does not correspond to the historical reality and to the demand for justice for an exterminated race that caught your eye in Avery’ comment in Today’s Zaman?

     Reply

611. Monastras, what did you find objectionable in Avery’s comment.  I thank you for sharing it.

     Reply

612. No I am not criticizing Avery’s comment. My point is If he is allowed to make such comment even though the paper he made comment has exactly the opposite view. Why should’t we allow to exchange our opinions on these pages? 

     I have never been Anti-Armenian. My opinion and Armenians opinion doesn’t have to match. I and my sister have have completely different opinion in many fields. I even had a chance to work with an Armenian colleque, when I was working for a Turkish company abroad. I always defended him against the boss. He did the same for me so I personally haven’t promoted Anti-Armenianism. But I will of course express my view freely and try to be fair.  
      

     Reply

613. Yes I have read the news. It is not unusual to hear such events in Turkey. However, most of the forced marriages, honor killings, polygamy occur in the south Eastern Turkey. When community leaders, Journalists etc warn the Kurdish community, They get angry.Unfortunately, they are still a tribal community, However, when they migrate to the other areas, they easily become part of the wider society.

     Reply

614. I posted this answer in the Daily Zaman:
     Necati
     nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories. However, from the actual actions we see that the Armenians for many years have been knocking on the doors all over the world to get recognition of the genocide, reparations and even concessions of territory. So it is reasonable that Turkey should go into this with an open mind, provide answers, and certainly in a better way than the standard answers from Turkish scholarship and politicians have shown so far. For Turks to answer Armenian claims with their own claims to third parties is not an answer that is in line with justice or jurisprudence

     Reply

615. Monastras, Avery is not anti-Turkish.  Like most Armenians, he is anti-Turkish lies and pro-justice.
     If you are for lies and against justice, than we have a problem.  Otherwise, I see no issue between you, a Turk and we Armenians.  You need to open your mind to the truth and recognize that Armenians only want the justice they deserve for what was brutally taken from them by your ancestors.  Once this is done, I have no doubt, like Avery said, that we can live in peace and mutual respect.

     Reply

616. I thank Ragnar for his support to Armenians in his comment above.
     Both Necati and Ragnar are right.  Anyone who has had something unlawfully taken from them has the right to appeal to a court for justice.   Further, Ragnar is correct in urging Turks to deal openly and honestly with Armenian claims.  And further still, Avery is correct in suggesting that Turkey be prepared to compensate the Armenians.  Justice is bigger than all of us.  Turkey will pay for its crimes, but will gain the respect of other nations and peace with neighbors. 

     Ragnar, I assume your book is intended to help Turks to “go into this with an open mind, provide answers, and certainly in a better way than the standard answers from Turkish scholarship and politicians have shown so far.”  

     If this is your goal, it is a good one.  However, I wonder how you explain the fact that many Turks have already embraced the historical truth.  What is special about these Turks compared to other more stubborn types?  Why are they able to accept the cold, hard truth without sugar-coating.  Why do they feel no need to point to ‘Armenian rebellions’ or ‘Balkan tragedies’ before admitting that the Armenians suffered a genocide?  I am amazed by such courageous people who are able to go against the social pressure to accept unquestioningly the ‘official Turkish version of history’ and make up their own minds based on obvious evidence.

     Wouldn’t it be better if you spent your time supporting those Turks and not giving more support to Turkish denial propaganda?  The Ottoman period had its good and bad points, but the bottom line for Armenians was decidedly negative: genocide.   This is too big a crime to place next to Turkish losses in the Balkans and pretend that they are of equal significance.  A government and sovereign nation has gotten away with the destruction of a certain ethnic group of it citizens for 100 years, and today still avoids justice by blaming and denigrating the victims.  Turks have had 100 years to make up for their nation’s shame but have used the time to invent new ways of running from the truth, including destruction of evidence, creating false history and teaching this in their schools.  I am not anti-Turkish, but as an Armenian, I find this appalling.  If I was a Turk I would be ashamed.

      

     Reply

617. Avery jan, I echo your sentiments in its entirety.  Now this is really called a free press.  The AW press is truly the essence of the free press isn’t it?  One of the most democratic papers you could find.

     However I for one of course am disgusted by the AG denialist posters as you would rightfully be. 

     Reply

618. How could a tribe such as the Seljuk Turks who came about a 1,000 years ago to the Armenian Highlands pillaging, premeditatingly murdering an entire nation and then sending the women and children to the death marches and expelling any remnants of the Armenian nation; thus making the Armenian Highlands a complete slaughter house, then confiscating their lands, houses, Churches, their belongings and their riches and then after all that to ask the murdered nation to return anything to the MURDERERS?

     Monastras, You are totally out of line and out of logic, but above all out of anything that bears decency.

     Reply

619. “Nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories.”

     ragnar naess,     compensation for lost property or other damage during the loss of the former Ottoman territories is irrelevant in the case of Turkey and Turks, because originally these properties were not Turkish with Turks being occupiers and colonizers. These are properties STOLEN from indigenous peoples whom Turks came to colonize and then physically annihilate en masse. These peoples need compensation, not the nomadic invaders, colonizers, and genocide perpetrators. Why do you always juxtapose two historically divergent cases? Don’t you think it’s cheap to play “cool guy” for both the Turks and Armenians, when you know the historical truth and chronology of events in Asia Minor?

     Reply

620. Ragnar Naess and Monastras, Consider this:

     I quote:
     “Homeland-killing: Worse than genocide, as incredible as that sounds, is the premeditated deprivation of a people of its ancestral heartland.  And that’s precisely what happened.  In what amounted to the Gerat Armenian Dispossession, a nation living for more than four millenia upon the historic patrimony was in a matter of months brutally, literally, and completely eradicated from its land.  Unprecedented in human history, this expropriation constitutes to this day a murder, not only of a people, but of a civilization and an attempt to erase a legacy of culture, a time-earned way of life.  This is where the debate about calling it genocide or not becomes absurd, trivial, and tertiary.  A homeland was exterminated by the Turkish republic’s predecessor and under the world’s watchful eye, and we’re negotiating a word.  Even that term is not enough to encompass the magnitude of the crime”.

     By Khoren of the 1915armeniangenocide blog.

     Reply

621. Ok.. i am glad it is not just me who noticed the playing both sides scheme by Ragnar.. Gor you stated and stated well: Don’t you think it’s cheap to play “cool guy” for both the Turks and Armenians, when you know the historical truth and chronology of events in Asia Minor?-  Oh Absolutely…
     
     I was thinking Ragnar will collect himself and dissapear from these pages as he is good at doing after he gets exposed and called out on so many levels (as in the past).. however, he changed his Amo…. now he is playing a good guy to us “inbreds” that we were indeed “disposed”(both his words) by barbaric Ottoman Turks.. cheap action indeed.. However, in a way it works because he is inadvertly just agreed that there was a GENOCIDE and it was INTENTIONAL.. because, Ragnar you said:

     Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
     any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
     against the government.  For instance the
     entry 197 – letter of September 17, 1915 from local authorities to the ministry
     of interior, states that the Armenians of Eskishehir and the environs have been
     deported.  But there is nowhere in these
     documents, as far as I can see (there are short summaries in modern Turkish for
     each letter, which is given in Ottoman, both transcripted and in facsimile of
     the original) any traces of conflict between local leaders and the government

     Is that what you are saying Ragnar??? Because what you stated above has been written 100X over in many sources… you just confirmed piece of history that we have been trying to get through your head.. call me nuts but are you changing for better and for justice??? (hmmm.. hard to believe…) could it be that one post of yours could be a bait to stir our annoyance and frustration away from you… is that your reason?? is that why you wrote to Monastras, the Anti- Armenian and Denialist who keeps REFUSING AND IGNORING direct questions to her but has the balls to come up here and ask her own denialists questions and make her own wrong and inaccurate statements… confused… really confused…

     Reply

622. Ragnar- I believe Boyajian had few questions for you to answer. please be so kind and answer them…

     Ragnar, I am still hoping for a concise statement from you regarding what you think Armenians are missing or getting wrong about Turks.  Please state it.  Fill in these blanks if you like:
      
     1.  What Armenians fail to understand about the genocide is______________________________ .
     2.  Armenians were wronged and deserve acknowledgment but ___________________________.
     3.  Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_________________________________.
     4.  Armenians deserve compensation for their losses in the form of________________________.
     5.  What Turks don’t understand about Armenians is___________________________________.
     6.  Turks deny the genocide because_______________________________________________.
     7.  I am writing a book about the Armenian genocide from the point of view of ______________.
     8.  What I hope to accomplish with my book is________________________________________

     Reply

623. Boyajian,

     I will answer your former detailed questions first, then your last post.  

     Reply

624. Monastras– all you can do is say this to Ragnar or anyone from your clique who directly asks you a question you don’t know or feel uncomfortable to answer.. Then you hope that we continue with our discussion and forget..
     Monastras
     September 10, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
     Ragnar
     I will answer your question as soon as I can

     If it your plan, unfortunately is not working too well for you.. it would be better if you stop exposing yourself as someone unintelligent by making statements you can’t stand behind…especially when you are being called out by one of your Turkophiles…now that is the worst situation to be in..we tried to reason with you and explain to you… drop your Denialist Mask.. let the fresh air to hit your face and clear all the nasty and molded spots… and you will see then that Armenians are not Anti-Turkish and our fight is against denialism, manipulation, lies and moral corruption dumped all on us by your own govt and people who represent such traits…

     Monastras.. another thing… you trying to dump a dirty soil on Avery’s name by posting a comment that has nothing to do with what we are discussing and in addition, shows NO connection whatso ever to hate toward Turks and Anti- Turkish feelings, truly makes you look like someone who is trying her hardest, absolute hardest to smir my friend’s name who has been pointed out how much of a denialists you are over and over and over and over again.. and i agree with him 100%.. without a doubt… so pleas stop your cheap ploys and be a human being first.. you will not win… not if you are trying to do this the way you are.. like Ragnar tried to do to me… it is embarassing to say the least.. embarassing for you…
     
     Avery’s one strand of hair has more dignity, knowledge, intelligence, and poise than all of the denialists and Turkophiles that we came to know on these pages…. so spare me your comparisons.. they have no ground and you knew it.. but i dont’ know why you decided to go with it anyway..

     here is what we say “Padosh eres”… someone who knows they are wrong, who knows they were called out many times over for their inconsiderate and insenstive comments and flat out denial, but yet continues to speak…

     Gayane
     PS I could not control my laugh when I read this statement written by Monastras” I have never been Anti-Armenian”.. i wish that was true but we all know the answer don’t we Monastras…. too bad..

     Reply

625. gor

     we are discussing juridical and ethical matters regarding the question of  reparations. I heard a specialist on the Cyprus issue, and it is evident that Turkish properties now in the Greek part of the island can be  reclaimed by their previous owners, irrespective of the fact that the Turks invaded Cypros several hundred years ago. So your jurisprudence is flawed. Ethically I support reparations for Turkish peasants in Bulgaria who had tilled the soil for  generaitons. I support US aboriginals against present US citizens who bought their stolen land, whether the US citizens in question have a Norwegian or an Armenian ancestry. According to your logic they are both thieves.

     Reply

626. thank you all Compatriots.

     Reply

627. by Gor‘s leave:

     whatever compensation Turk peasants are due for tilling the soil for generations can be deducted from the compensation that is due to the indigenous populations whose real properties – buildings, churches, castles, gold, silver, cattle, etc, etc, – were either destroyed, confiscated or stolen by Ottoman Turks and their Seljuk Turk predecessors. Plus,  compensation for the productive human capital that was either exterminated by the invaders or was enslaved.

     Let’s all remember the indisputable historical fact: when nomadic  Seljuk Turk warrior tribes invaded  the Armenian Highlands, and thence Byzantium, and thence Eastern  Europe, they did not invade uninhabited badlands. They invaded lands that had highly developed civilizations, cities, buildings, cultures. Accumulated wealth in the form of real estate, man-made irrigation, productive agriculture on developed agricultural  land that was  accomplished over generations of hard labor, manufacturing,  food production, highly productive people who had developed the ability to produce wealth over millennia of sedentary existence, over millennia of investing in human development, human capital – instead of developing marauding skills.
      
     When Seljuk Turks invaded around 1000 A.D. they did not bring with them wagonloads of gold or silver. Nor did they bring libraries of knowledge or skilled artisans. Nor did they drag beautiful architectural  marvels behind horse drawn carts.  They were indisputably Nomadic Warrior Tribes. Read that sentence again: there is no instance in recorded human history of  nomadic tribes bringing higher civilization to sedentary people. It’s the other way around.   What  Seljuk Turks brought to Armenian Highlands were highly developed martial skills and the remorseless ability to conquer, to  destroy and devastate. Nothing more. It’s the equivalent of someone coming to your house and taking whatever they want – because they have a gun and you don’t.
      
     Let’s add  all that up. Then deduct from what invading Turks owe those sedentary civilizations and their heirs any compensation due to those Turk peasants who were tilling the Bulgarian soil, for example. Surely, we can agree that ordinary Turk peasants tilling the soil were not responsible for the devastation wrought by other warrior Turks. And they should be compensated for whatever value they had added to the soil by their labor.

     Just as surely we can agree that the original owners of that same tract of soil must be compensated as well, not only for the loss of possible increased value of the land due to possible alternative development, not only for destruction of any properties on it (buildings, cattle, orchards,….),  but the imputed income the soil would have produced for the original owners – either because they were expelled or were exterminated outright.
      
      
     BTW: in the US, when you rent/lease  a house/property, any improvements you make that were not authorized  or agreed to by the owner are considered a gift to the owner of the property. The renter can claim no compensation.
      
     The matter regarding Native Americans is a deliberate distraction that has no connection to Turks: it is a worthy discussion subject  – but for another thread.

     Reply

628. ragnar naess,   we’re discussing a plethora of matters on this thread, in case you didn’t notice, not only juridical and ethical matters regarding the question of reparations. You alone brought up dozen of absurd matters, such as wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks in the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish war. Is this matter relevant to juridical and ethical matters regarding the question of reparations for Armenians?
      
     Any juridical and ethical matters have an historical implication. It may be that my jurisprudence is flawed, but I’ve never gone beyond the boundaries of my profession on this thread. I’m not an international lawyer. But you now are, in addition to being a ‘junior historian’ and a ‘practitioner’? Jack-of-all-trades
      
     What are the credentials of “a specialist on the Cyprus issue”? If he or she is a ‘specialist’, then how on Earth is it possible to call the traces of Turkish colonization of Cyprus as Turkish ‘properties’? It creates an impression as if Turks were indigenous inhabitants of Cyprus, had properties there, and it was Cypriots who invaded, colonized them, and appropriated their ‘properties’. If he or she is a ‘specialist’, how come he or she has avoided the matter of Turkish military occupation of Cyprus and rightful properties of the Cypriots in the Turkish-occupied part of the island? You see, it all boils down to history and the chronology of historical events.
      
     Turkish invasion in the 11-12th centuries AD and colonization in the 15-16th centuries AD of indigenous peoples of Asia Minor, the Middle East, and southeastern Europe have nothing in common with ‘Turkish peasants in Bulgaria who had tilled the soil for generations.’ Whose soil?! If it was originally theirs, Turks would have tilled it in the Mongolian steppes and areas adjacent to the Altay mountains. Turks tilled stolen soil belonging to the Bulgarians and other Balkan peoples. How ethically and morally honest is it to give good reason for occupiers, knowing that they tilled other’s peoples’ soil for their own livelihood?
      
     US aboriginals received most of their ancestral lands back in the form of reservations. They represent an integral part of the American society; full-fledged citizens of the U.S with equal civil rights. US aboriginals were not slaughtered en masse on orders of their own government.

     Reply

629. Boyajian,     what exactly did you thank ragnar naess for?  I noticed you thanked him for “his support to Armenians in his comment above.” Could you share what ‘support to Armenians’ you saw in his introductory clause: “nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories”? This clause and the one that follows, which you took as ‘support to Armenians’ represent the classical case of juxtaposition of divergently dissimilar historical events. ‘Former Ottoman territories’ were not the original, autochtonous habitat of the Turks so their ‘properties’—stolen from indigenous peoples—can be classified as ‘lost’. If Turks ‘lost’ ‘their’ properties, then what happened to the properties that autochtonous peoples had before the invasions of the Seljuk Turks in the 11th and colonization of the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century? If Turkophiles think Turks ‘lost’ properties for which they should be compensated, whose properties were they? Who lived on those lands before Turkish warrior nomads appeared? Whose properties were lost in the first place and in the last place, as well, in genocidal acts against the Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians?

     Reply

630. Ragnar is playing both fields… he is just like Robert, who exposed himself to get our sympathy yet behind the words, the same Robert or Roberts lure and speak… Ragnar is using a more obvious tactic.. trying to stroke our arm by injecting something that somewhat resembles him supporting Armenians. but unfortunately it is all a game to him.. all of it..and we know it well…

     Gor and Avery jan– brilliant responses…

     Gayane

     Reply

631. Gor, I feared I might catch some flack for that.

     This is what I thanked Ragnar for:

      So it is reasonable that Turkey should go into this with an open mind, provide answers, and certainly in a better way than the standard answers from Turkish scholarship and politicians have shown so far. For Turks to answer Armenian claims with their own claims to third parties is not an answer that is in line with justice or jurisprudence.

     To me this supports our assertion that it is improper for Turkey to try to equate Balkan losses with the losses Armenia suffered in the genocide.  I don’t know if he is trying to be supportive, but this is how I understand it.  
     
      Gor what you wrote in your comment to me is correct in my mind and I agree with your position on Turkish property claims.   As for his introductory clause:   “nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories”?   This is simply a factual statement.  They have the right to bring their claim to court, just as we do.   That doesn’t mean that their claim has any moral or juridical teeth in it.  I didn’t comment on it, but I thank you and Avery for taking it on.

     Does that clear things up? 

     Reply

632. Boyajian, I understand your desire for  reconciliation and to be fair: as I have said before, I admire my Armenian compatriots for their patience and magnanimity towards some of the Turks and Turkophile posters who truly push the envelope.
      
     However, I have to agree with Gor.
     As Gayane reminded everybody above, Mr. Naess has said a couple of very nasty things.
     The ‘inbreds’  comment was bad enough.
     But when someone refers to our exterminated ancestors using language reserved for referring to garbage and detritus – then it is all over: one strike, you’re out.
     And for those who still want to give Mr. Naess the benefit of doubt based on his possible poor grasp of English, being a Norwegian: on other sites,  Mr. Naess has boasted of having Excellent  proficiency of the  English language.
     So the use of the phrase ‘disposed of’  is a “tell”: it was no accident.
      
     ——
      
     Here is Mr. Naess’s assessment of his English:
     Languages and degree of proficiency
     speaking reading writing
     English excellent excellent excellent
     German good good good
     French good fair fair
     Spanish good fair fair
     Italian good fair fair
     Russian good good good
     Turkish good good good
     Norwegian, mother tongue, also covers Danish and Swedish
     ——-
     One final note:
      
     Today is September 11, 2011.
     Those of us who are Americans, let’s remember the innocent men and women who were murdered on this day 10 years ago.
     They were out countrymen.
     God  bless their souls. They too were our brothers and sisters.
     We, being Armenian-Americans,  understand better than most.

     Reply

633. Gayane

     are you sure that you must not revise your view of me as a deceiving person who falsely wants to appear as friends to both parties? Are you sure I am not a case of someone who sees both parties as having both some correct and some incorrect ideas, some reasonable emotional reactions and some that are not reasonable? Have you never reacted in this way if you as an outsider meet with people who disagree, maybe based  on very old and difficult confrontations and problems?

     Ragnar  

     Reply

634. gor

     I cannot follow your logic. Suppose A has committed a crime against B, but A also has a legitimate claim against C. Does this mean that we equalise  A and B in some sense, apart from the fact that both have some claim? B has a claim against A, and A has a claim against C. these are two different matters and they do not imply any “equalizing”. Or do you mean that Turks, because you hold that they have been evil and murdering since the dawn of history, never have any legitimate claims at all before they return to a place behind the Altay mountains. Honestly, gor, I dont know you personally , but is this really what you have in mind? Are you serious?

     Reply

635. gor

     Sorry, I answer you in a piecemeal manner. the question of the Turkish peasants in Bulgaria was brought up by me when I said that also Turks suffered genocide, at least according to the reasoning of ICTJ. You objected to this, and we discussed it for some time. You failed to convince me that my reasoning was mistaken, and you did not comment on the fate of the Circassians in 1864. Needless to say, the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria has no immediate relevance  for the question of Armenians receiving reparations from Turkey today. My point was the usage of the term genocide, as it has been used in genocide research. To my mind the term genocide, if it is to be used (and I can see many reasons why it should be used) must also be applied to many other cases of mass killing and destruction of etnic,religious etc communities in the final years of the Ottoman Empire. To restrict it only to Armenians, maybe adding Syriacs, Nestorians and Greeks is unreasonable in the light of clear cases where Turks in certain localities were slaughtered as such or put in a life endangering situation, being ethically cleansed, and having their mosques destroyed, and villages burned or taken over by Bulgarians.  So this is my point, it deals with the historical context, which of course does not change or modify the Armenian demands for reparations at all. Turks must answer Armenian claims, and if they want, they may raise claims against the Bulgarian government today, which they have not done, possibly because their catastrophy after all was much less than the Armenian catastrophy, or for whatever reason it is not done. So you must take the responsibility of having argued against me when I said that Turks also suffered genocide at certain historical crossroads. To which arguments I answered.

     Reply

636. gayane

     you write
     If it your plan, unfortunately is not working too well for you.. it would be better if you stop exposing yourself as someone unintelligent by making statements you can’t stand behind…

     comment: I am sorry that you have this impression. I mainly ask questions because I am not sure of the answers, in some cases when I wonder about the ideas and attitudes of participants in the discussion I believe I partly know the answers, but rather than making some appraisal or diagnose of other people I prefer to ask relevant questions and have them think themselves. This is how I work in dialogue settings. It is more curteous to ask people to think about something than proclaiming some “truth” that they do not identify with, especially if my question also is a kind of feedback to them on how they think. Many of your comments, by the way, Gayane, made me reconsider my opinions and style, and in turn I make comments and ask questions. Isnt that the right way to discuss?

     you write:   
         especially when you are being called out by one of your Turkophiles…now that is the worst situation to be in..

     comment: I don not understand

     you write
         we tried to reason with you and explain to you… drop your Denialist Mask..
     comment: gayane, I do not understand you. I deny some of the things you believe and support others. Have you never been in this kind of debate before?

     you write: 

         let the fresh air to hit your face and clear all the nasty and molded spots…

     comment: I wish I could do that at the age of 70, but I am not sure about what you have in mind

     you write: 

          and you will see then that Armenians are not Anti-Turkish and our fight is against denialism, manipulation, lies and moral corruption dumped all on us by your own govt and people who represent such traits…
      comment: My own government? Yes, I fight against denialism, lies and manipulation, but I DO NOT AGREE IN ALL THINGS, NEITHER WITH THE TURKS, NOR WITH THE ARMENIANS. Am I allowed to disagree?  No, I believe you when you say that you are not anti-Turkish, but is your criteria to be a “good Turk” to admit yes, genocide happened, yes, we will compensate you with trillions of dollars, yes, we will give you 30% of the present Republic of Turkey? If yes, the Turk is “good”, if he/she says “no” to anything of the above , then he or she is “bad”, is that it?   

     Reply

637. Ragnar

     I wrote
     Yes some Armenians were deported even though they were far away from the war zone.The Local governors and the army commanders played an important role to make a decision rather than the central CUP. This doesn’t alone show the intention of CUP as I said the local factors had a greater contribution. remember, Cup tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to ceased the deportation but they couldn’t, for this reason , they issued orders one after another to stop the deportation which means the communication was poor
     You wrote 
      there are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
     Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
     any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
     against the government.  For instance the
     entry 197 – letter of September 17, 1915 from local authorities to the ministry
     of interior, states that the Armenians of Eskishehir and the environs have been
     deported.  But there is nowhere in these
     documents,

     The provisional law says ” The army, Army corps. and Divisional Commanders are authorized to transfer and relocate the populations of villages and towns, either individually or collectively, in response to military needs, or in response to any signs of treachery or betrayal” therefore what I wrote doesn’t contradict with what was taken place. We must also see the bigger picture that half a million allies soldiers were landing at Gallipoli when this law came in to force.The Turks knew that Boghos Nubar pasha assured the Brithish high command that the Armenians in the Adana region were ready to provide 20000 thousands of soldiers, if the Allies open another front in Mersin or Iskenderun.Thus  the Armenians made common cause with the Enemy may have played an important role to deport the Armenians from the Adana region which was far away from the war zone. we also know that the communication was poor between the government and the local authorities and the government had very little control over local factors. This most probably led the local officials to ignore the central government instructions or interpret in the way they like. 
      

     Reply

638. t

     monastras, there are several decisions about deportation at
     the time, the law you refer to is the law of may 27,1915. The earlier  deportations from Zeytun and the Cilician coastline in march 1915, which you mention, may very well have been militarily
     motivated. Taner Akcam confirms that this was the given reason, and possibly
     this was so. Akcam confirms the British plans for a landing in  Cilicia, known
     to the ittihadists.  However, I mentioned Eskisehir and Kütahiya, not Adana. There was no war zone in Eskisehir, and no treason is
      documented so far. So citing the law is not any answer to my question.Eskisehir is but one of the examples of Armenians deported
     from areas with no rebellious tradition and apparently no intentions of
     activities against the government. However, the fact of deportations from
     outside the war zones is but one of the factors that made both many
     contemporary observers and many later historians conclude that the relocations
     were a cloak for extermination.  There
     are others and I have mentioned them here in AW earlier. However, I’d like to
     ask you the following. Some years ago a Turkish citizen posted an article in “Turkish
     Daily News” with the title “Will we ever know the truth?”. Evidently he was
     uncertain about what actually took place in these years. It is a fact that
     until recently all Turkish citizens who officially declared that they believed
     that the ittihadists launched a program of extermination of their Armenian
     citizens, a genocide, were automatically facing trial. Even if the books of
     Taner Akcam have been published in Turkish and never declared unlawful, we have
     the recent case of Orhan Pamuk. This is not a climate condusive to search for
     unpopular truths. So my question is: are you absolutely sure that the accusation
     of genocide is false, or do you believe that it may be true? Is it not possible
     that the Turkish public has been deceived for many years, since there were so
     many constraints on free discussion?

     Reply

639. ragnar naess,    you cannot follow my logic because you’re Turko-centric. Had you been an impartial person, you’d understand my logic very easily. Here’s an example.  You write: “A [Turks] has committed a crime against B [Armenians], but A [Turks] also has a legitimate claim against C [Bulgarians].” From the first glance, this paradigm doesn’t mean that you equalize A and B in some sense. But equalization comes into sight when you appear in all your beauty stating the following: “Turks also suffered genocide.” With this in mind, the ‘ABC’ paradigm at bottom should read as follows: “A [Turks] has committed a crime against B [Armenians], but A [Turks] also has a legitimate claim against C [Bulgarians] because, just like B [Armenians], A [Turks] were victims of the identical crime committed by C [Bulgarians].” Does this clear things up as to why you cannot follow my logic in objecting equalization of the crime committed by A [Turks] against B [Armenians] and by C [Bulgarians] against A [Turks]? You equalize the crime—in its deliberate intent, barbarity, magnitude, scope, and consequences—committed against disconnected Armenians by their own government with the atrocities that Turks and Russians or Turks and Bulgarians suffered while fighting each other in a war they declared on each other. It is this qualization that I object.  I don’t mean that Turks can’t have any legitimate claims, but you just can’t shrug off the fact that their claims are the result of actions that they brought on their heads: it was the nomadic Seljuk warriors who invaded Asia Minor and the Balkans, not sedentary Armenians. It was the bellicose Turks who captured the capital of Eastern Christendom Constantinople, not civilized Byzantines. It was the bellicose Ottoman Turks who expanded their military conquests over the Middle East, Asia Minor, Arabia, and Europe with sword and fire and colonized many indigenous peoples, not Serbs or Bulgarians or Assyrians or Armenians.  And I don’t know you personally, but were you serious when you posted the ‘inbreds’ comment and used the degrading phrase ‘disposed of’ in regard to Armenians?

     Reply

640. Mponatras
     I agree that you earlier have writeen that it was local army commanders and local authorities who also were responsible for deportations. There is also no documentation as far as I can see that Armenians from places like Eskisehir and Kütahya were relocated by local leaders in defience of central orders. However, you write:…(the CUP center) tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to cease the deportation but they couldn’t. unquote. As I have said before this is completely new for me. It is not mentioned by Gürün (“The Armenian file, 1985) and not by Halacoglu in the article I mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in Haluk Selvi: The Armenian question (sakarya 2007), nor in  Sonyel’s “The great war and the tragedy of Anatolia”(TTK 2000). And Justin McCarthy in his “the Ottoman peoples and the end pof empires” (2001), speaks about the deportation of Armenians from “interior provinces on which there was no imminent danger”(p.111), implicitly conseding that this was wrong. However, there is no comment to the effect that local leaders continued to deport Armenians in spite of being ordered by the CUP center to stop deporting. Who has maintained that a considerable part of the relocation of Armenians was done by local officials against the will of the CUP center? I would like a reference to the book or dissertation that holds this view. 

     Reply

641. gor
      
     I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”. I will be more careful with my language in the future. But I cannot follow your logic in the way you  describe it. I never said that Turks and Armenians suffered identical losses in all respects, I just pointed to one prominent decision, that of the ICTJ, which was applied to the Armenians , but that also – by the same reasoning – should be applied to other groups, among them Turks in Bulgaria, to take one example. I said that according to the  same kind of reasoning and criteria the Turks in Bulgaria also suffered genocide. But the differences between the two cases, even if both qualify as genocide, are great. This has to do with factors as 1) the relative number of people who perished (many more Armenians than Turks relative to the total number of Turks/Armenians),2) the number of the group still residing in the area under question (many Turks remained in Bulgaria, very few or none in the ancestral home of the Armenians), and 3)  the Armenians have raised the issue, and should by common morality receive an adequate answer, and reparations according to international standards. To my mind, 4) The various Bulgarian governments have neverhese are examples of the differences between the cases, and is why my bottom line is to support the Armenians, not in everything you want, but in important aspects to my mind. We disagree on certain items, but this does not make me “Turk-centered”. I disagree with many Turks who participate here in AW, which is easy to see if you look both at what I have said to them, and what I have written to you.
      

     Reply

642. ragnar naess,    you don’t have to be sorry when you answer me in a piecemeal manner. I’ll return the favor by answering you in a similar manner.  Out of four categories that ICTJ used to determine that Turkish deliberate mass slaughter of Armenians constituted genocide, only one can be applied to the civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent party in the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish or 1912-13 First Balkan wars, in which Armenians didn’t figure in any way. You failed to support your argument re: the Bulgarian Turks who, you dream, also suffered genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ, because, unlike me, you never went over the four criteria used by ICTJ to show how all four of them apply to the Bulgarian Turks’ case. Therefore, there was actually no ‘reasoning’ per se on your part, except for a mere assertion. I normally don’t make effort to convince anyone holding views not susceptible of proof. My proof is that ICTJ resolution deals with the genocide of Armenians committed by the Turks, not the genocide of Bulgarian Turks committed by ethnic Bulgarians.

     You also didn’t comment whether you justify Brevik’s killings of innocent people just as you justify Turks’ mass murder of innocent people as a result of both perpetrators’ paranoia and overreaction leading to murder that you admitted was a key in the both cases. That’s why I didn’t comment on the fate of the Circassians. I’m ready whenever you’re ready.
      
     You cannot extend the usage of the term genocide that’s applicable to mass exterminated Armenians, Syriacs, Nestorians, and Greeks, on the Bulgarian Turks who suffered atrocities during wars that their co-ethnic armies waged or during the national liberation struggles aimed at expelling the Turkish occupiers. You’ll devaluate yourself as a ‘junior scholar’, ‘practitioner’ or ‘jurisprudent’ or a polymath, if you continue juxtaposing the government-planned and executed deliberate murder with the intent to destroy a race with deaths, occasional ethnic cleansing, casualties, etc. that are inevitable during the wars or self-determination struggles. Turks haven’t raised claims against the Bulgarian government not only because their ‘catastrophe’ pales in comparison with their savage slaughters of Armenians, Assyrians, Nestorians, and Greeks, but also because they realize that the casualties they’ve had were the result of their entering into wars and the consequence of their earlier occupation of lands belonging to others.
      
     I categorically object to and ridicule profusely any attempt at equalizing the deliberate, centrally-executed Turkish policy aimed at destroying Christian minorities as indigenous ethnic, national, religious, and racial groups with the casualties that Turks have had in various wartime situations or during the freedom-fighting against them as occupiers.

     Reply

643. sorry part of my words fell out: I wanted to say:  As far as I know, 4) The various Bulgarian governments over the years have never distorted the fate of the Bulgarian Turks in 1877-78 in the way the Turkish official version for many years distorted the Armenian fate in 1915-16. But I never researched it in detail.

     Reply

644. Not to belabor the point, but Avery, please read what I wrote to Gor and let me know if this is clear to you.   I do give people the benefit of the doubt, (yes even Ragnar Naess) but I am well aware of the particularly offensive references that you mention above and have followed him on this site for more than a year.  He remains an enigma to me.   I find it especially difficult to understand what he hopes to accomplish by playing both sides of the fence.  I have to believe that it is in service of completing his book, a major life project after many years of work with minorities and human rights.  Perhaps he will someday clarify this for us, as he has been freely fishing in our pond for some time now.  Again I thank you and Gor, Gayane, etc., for taking on elements that I don’t.  Between all of us, I think we have the bases covered.

     BTW, Ragnar’s English is much better than my Norwegian (non-existent), but I have often found it difficult to understand some of his ideas and thought that he didn’t quite understand others.  Language is an issue here and I believe he tries to make up for any deficiencies in understanding by his pedantic style of debate.  Assert, question, clarify, assent, disagree, reassert, question and so on…)  Always trying to come to a point of understanding or clarifying disagreement on point A before proceeding to point B.  

     This is not such a bad thing to do, but it is all done very cerebrally and doesn’t sit well with us warm-blooded Armenians who are over-flowing with emotion around anything Turkish.  I for one have no patience with his effort to point out that Turks suffered too.  Who didn’t?  But they have a vast country, undue political influence, support the Azeris in their efforts to take even more from us, and continue to run from the truth about the genocide.   I fail to see why they need support from him or any other Turkophile historian against Armenian claims, when we are fighting for simple justice for an obvious crime (genocide) committed by a known perpetrator  (Turkey).   You would think that a human rights advocate would not support ‘Goliath’ against ‘David’ here.  As I have said to him before, for me, justice is the priority, not volumes upon volumes of descriptions and interpretations of the final years of the Ottoman empire.   It is all very interesting, but in my mind it is a game encouraged by Turkey to delay justice.

     Reply

645. Ragnar– it is obvious you do not pay attention which comment is directed to who..

     The comment posted by you to me (see below) (note: including only portion of it just to direct your attention to what post I am referring to) was actually for MONASTRAS and not you… talk about jumping at someone without reading the entire matter…but that explains why you always misquote or misrepresent my identity on these pages.. because you just don’t pay attention and pick and choose what you want to read.. gee weez…

     ragnar naess
     September 12, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     gayane
     you write
     If it your plan, unfortunately is not working too well for you.. it would be better if you stop exposing yourself as someone unintelligent by making statements you can’t stand behind…
     comment: I am sorry that you have this impression. I mainly ask questions because I am not sure of the answers, in some cases when I wonder about the ideas and attitudes of participants in the discussion I believe I partly know the answers……………………

       

     Reply

646. ragnar naess
     September 12, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

     Gayane
     are you sure that you must not revise your view of me as a deceiving person who falsely wants to appear as friends to both parties? NO.. and NO you had plenty of opportunities Ragnar to prove us wrong but you did everything to prove us right….. so NO…unfortunately you will remain as that individual who plays both fields but deep down you are an asbolute Turkophile… sorry Ragnar.. truly sorry..

       Are you sure I am not a case of someone who sees both parties as having both some correct and some incorrect ideas, some reasonable emotional reactions and some that are not reasonable? NO- NO AND NO…. we have experienced your both sides Ragnar.. your side that wants to show Armenians are right what they are fighting for, you do tenfolds to cover that up with nonsense and pro Turkish bias… so NO…

       Have you never reacted in this way if you as an outsider meet with people who disagree, maybe based  on very old and difficult confrontations and problems?
     We are not talking about simple disagreement as to what ice cream should I buy today or which shirt fits you better…..YOu are not disagreeing with me which book has great info Ragnar.. you are fighting tooth and nail to tell us that Genocide (GENOCIDE) never happened.. you are fighting so hard to prove to us that Armenians are being selfish by claiming Genocide and calling it just for ARmenians (rubbish.. because you know that is not true).. THat Turkey has all the rights to claim theirs too (what claims???)… That Turks suffered Genocide by Bulgarians?? (NOTE: BULGARIANS WERE MASSACRED BY BARBARIC OTTOMAN TURKS not the other way around.. just because Bulgarians fought back to protect themselves against barbarism it does not mean Turks can claim Genocide.. oh another thing.. IF Turks suffered Genocide by Bulgarians.. i wonder why Lemkin did not use THAT event to coin the word Genocide.. or better yet.. why did the world’s govts and courts EVER brought this Genocide up ?? To speak and talk about the story of the Turks, the aggressors suffered by the hands of more civilized culture, Bulgarians…hmmmmmmmmmm..maybe because Bulgarians could not carry out a premediated, systematic Genocide but absolutely had the right to fight back and protect their homes and families..please direct me to sources that the suffering of the Turks by Bulgarians truly constitutes as a Genocide.. is this internationally known fact??? but  yet you are so fast as to dismiss the mass murder of the Armenian nation.. how convenient for you… so NO Ragnar…
      Have a nice day

     Gayane

     Reply

647. Monastras is talking just to talk.. because obviously her Anti-Armenianness is soooo much that is blinds her ability to read and understand STRONG FACTS provided by my compatriots.. Even Ragnar who is very close to her nation posed direct questions she does not know how to answer except with vague nonrelated responses.. Monastras you are truly piece of work.. hope you get some senses in you because your reasonings are laghable to say the least…

     G

     Reply

648. Avery jan— love your comment…

     Gor jan- excellent 

     Reply

649. boyajian

     I will start answering your specific questions.   
     1.  What Armenians fail to understand about the genocide is – I cannot say anything about Armenians generally, but many Armenians seem not to realize that there is a real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16, and this makes them forget to ARGUE. further they must not use questionable sources which are being dismissed by most sources______________________________ .
     2.  Armenians were wronged and deserve acknowledgment but _- there is no “but” , what “but” might there be?__________________________.
     3.  Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_Again, not Armenians at large but SOME Armenians would benefit from focussing on the ittihadists,and their crimes, not on the Turks as being “bad” from the very beginning, an opinion which both is questionable and not conducive to convince Turks who look honestly into the matter. 

     ________________________________.
     4. Armenians deserve compensation for their losses in the form of – compensation for lost propoerties and apologies, about land I am not sure. There are international standards and discussions on the rights of indigenous people, and I am not familiar with it. 
      

      

     Reply

650. ragnar naess,    you never replied if it’s possible to provide us with a copy of your upcoming book’s Introduction.  This will tell us a lot about your true intentions.  So, is it possible or not?  

     Reply

651. “I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”.
      
     I believe it was Avery who invited our attention to such obnoxious words in addressing the Armenians, but I believe your apology will be taken although it is noted that you avoided apologizing directly in response to Avery’s incessant demands. Just imagine what hysteria you’d wind up if any Armenian poster used such words with regards to the Turks.
      
     “I never said that Turks and Armenians suffered identical losses in all respects, I just pointed to one prominent decision, that of the ICTJ, which was applied to the Armenians, but that also – by the same reasoning – should be applied to other groups, among them Turks in Bulgaria, to take one example.”
      
     Are these not your world in a previous post: “[…]the question of the Turkish peasants in Bulgaria was brought up by me when I said that also Turks suffered genocide, at least according to the reasoning of ICTJ”?
      
     ‘Should apply’ and ‘didn’t apply’ are two different things. You personally think it should, but the reputable body as ICTJ thinks it shouldn’t. The reality is that ICTJ addressed the genocide of the Armenians, not Bulgarian Turks representing a civilian segment of a warring party.  Besides, why do you want the ICTJ genocide resolution to apply to two unmatched cases? I invited you to go over the four criteria that ICTJ sets up to determine whether or not there was genocide. I only saw one out of four that can be applicable to the Bulgarian Turks. You cannot follow my logic? Well, too bad. Can you follow ICTJ’s logic? Let’s go over all four criteria and see if all four of them apply to the Bulgarian Turks who were, as you may know, the civilian segment of the belligerent party, officially at war, and thus predestined towards suffering atrocities. What is so incomprehensible in my logic for you? How can a wartime situation, in which civilians as a rule suffer, be compared or juxtaposed with the deliberate government-planned mass extermination of a people as a race? What is beyond your comprehension here? Pardon me, but might it be that you spent too long a time among Turkish denialists to develop incomprehension?

     Reply

652.  
     gor

     regarding the Turks in Bulgaria I will try again:

     you write:

     Out of four categories that ICTJ used to determine that Turkish deliberate mass
     slaughter of Armenians constituted genocide, only one can be applied to the
     civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent party in the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish
     or 1912-13 First Balkan wars, in which Armenians didn’t figure in any way.

     comment: – well, then you admit that the question is about the fate of
     civilians? The notion “Civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent
     party” does not make much sense, because the whole notion of protection of
     civilians in war arose specifically regarding the fate of the civilians in
     countries at war. Second: I wrote earlier today (1209) that the fate of the
     Armenians can not be equalized to the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria (but you do
     not comment on it), BUT that according to the procedure of ICTJ one must also
     conclude that the Bulgarian Turks suffered genocide.

     the criteria mentioned by the ICTJ are:
     (i) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (ii) such person or
     persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group;
     (iii) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (iv)
     the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed
     against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction.

     The description given by Justin McCarthy in his “Death and Exile” has never been
     substantially attacked by any historian to my mind. It is  praised by Zurcher as providing an aspect “too often overlooked”. It is said that “from the first days of the Russian invasion
     of Ottoman Europe, Russian troops killed defenseless Turkish citizens”(p. 66).
     He adds that this is not only according to Ottoman testimonies, but also the
     international press. In july 1877 some 20 journalists from the main German,
     French and English newspapers met to sign a statement condemning the massacres
     of Turkish civilians. The massacres generated a huge stream of refugees, who
     perished in large numbers because of famine, sickness and the coldness of  autumn/winter. Statistics indicate that 260.000 civilian Turks died in the course of the war. There appeared to be
     method and consistency in the attacks. The aim was to cleanse Bulgaria of Turks, with no concern for human life. That not all were killed is no argument against the events being genocide, as often is said regarding the Armenian fate.
     The element “killed one or more persons” is obviously present. The element that 
     these persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious
     group is also present. The targeted group was Turks in Bulgaria, similar to the
     group mentioned in the ICTJ memorandum(“the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such”)
      
     Regarding the question of whether “the conduct took place in the context of a manifest
     pattern of similar conduct directed against that group» it is obvious from the
     preceding description that Turks were massively targeted.
      
     So how you can conclude that only one of the 4 elements applies to the
     case of the Bulgarian Turks?
      Then regarding the question of the fourth, the question of intent the
     ICTJ says the following:
      While this legal memorandum is not intended to definitively resolve particular factual disputes, we believe that the most reasonable conclusion to draw from the various accounts of the Events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.
     Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the
     Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the
     crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians,
     politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them.
     Unquote.
     Given the description of the atrocities committed against the Turks in
     Bulgaria, it is very hard to deny that   “at least
     some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their
     actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Turks of  Bulgaria, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent”.
     Indeed some 20% of the Turks in bulgaria died.
      As you see the ICTJ concludes in the following manner:”… and legal
     scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would
     be justified in continuing to so describe them( that is describe the events as
     genocide). unquote. To me it is obvious that – according to the same way of thinking –
     the atrocities against the Turks of Bulgaria also can be called genocide.
      Note that this is a low threshold definition of genocidal intent. It is enough
     that “at least some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence
     of their actions would be the destruction…” for the events to qualify as
     genocide”. In the same way as the ICTJ holds it for reasonable to conclude that some of the actors simply killed Armenians to destroy the group of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, as such, some
     of the actors in Bulgaria in 1877-78 must have killed Turks just to kill Turks,
     that is Turks ,as such. This is a reasonable conclusion. That NONE of the
     Russian soldiers, Cossacks or Bulgarian paramilitary groups had this
     exterminatory goal seems very unlikely to me. They knew the consequences of
     their actions, not only of killing indiscriminately, but also the effect of
     making hundreds of thousands flee in the given circumstances. — So this is my
     reasoning, right or wrong.
      
     Finally, I never said that killing of Armenians was LEGITIMATE  because of Turkish paranoia, I EXPLAINED it
     partly by referring to a paranoia. I hope you see the doifference. So your paradoxical
     parallel to the killings perpetrated by Breivik on july 22 in norway  is not very illuminating.
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
        

     Reply

653. “[…]many Armenians seem not to realize that there is a real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16”.
      
     Between whom is there a ‘real disagreement’,    ragnar naess?  Between Armenians and Turks? This is understandable because disagreement is the only thing Turks can match against the truth, reparations and land restitution.  Who else disagrees? If you bring up McCarthy or Lewy or a bunch of bought and paid-for denialists, you’ll insult our intelligence. Who else?

     Reply

654. ‘Not to belabor the point, but Avery, please read what I wrote to Gor and let me know if this is clear to you.’
     Boyajian, I read what you wrote to Gor. It is clear. But I still disagree: it is me, not you.
     You are far more tolerant of certain people, people I cannot tolerate for specific reasons. The fact that I disagree means just that: I would not have thanked him. You and I are different. Sometimes your way is right.

     Reply

655.  ‘many Armenians seem not to realize that there is a real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16, and this makes them forget to ARGUE.’

     Ragnar, you don’t have this quite right.  Armenians don’t accept that there is real disagreement and we are loathe to argue against recently fabricated alternate viewpoints that are designed to cloud the issue, because that is giving these arguments too much credence.  We believe that the evidence of the genocide was known and recognized worldwide since the beginning and there is a large body of reputable scholars who uphold this view.  Those scholars that disagree are primarily Turkish or bought by Turkey, which casts a shadow over their disagreement and their scholarship.  Which questionable sources are you referring to?  

     .  “Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_Again, not Armenians at large but SOME Armenians would benefit from focussing on the ittihadists,and their crimes, not on the Turks as being “bad” from the very beginning, an opinion which both is questionable and not conducive to convince Turks who look honestly into the matter.”

     I can see your point here but again remind you that many Turks can and do recognize the truth of their nation’s guilt already.   And more would do so if the propaganda was exposed for what it is.

     Reply

656. Historical truths often have limited lives. What is accepted as unquestionable for some years or even decades, may be questioned by quite many people. Then those who have the views may choose to insist on their idea of the truth without re-arguing the case in the light of arguments, or they may argue. I just answered Boyajian and gave an advise. You will of course follow your own path. I wish you luck

     Reply

657. Ragnar-

     You said:

     disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16, and this makes them forget to ARGUE. further they must not use questionable sources which are being dismissed by most sources

     oh really??

     Why don’t you point out which sources are questionable for you??? what sources do you speak of that did not hit the spot for you???  please provide exact name and dates….

     you said:

     not Armenians at large but SOME Armenians would benefit from focussing on the ittihadists,and their crimes, not on the Turks as being “bad” from the very beginning, an opinion which both is questionable and not conducive to convince Turks who look honestly into the matter. 

     how many times do we have to repeat ourselves to make these people understand??? are we THAT unclear?? Ragnar… how many times we said this: WE DO NOT HATE OR THINK ORDINARY TURKS ARE BAD… you know very well that we despise the govt and the denialists and Turkophiles…. what is there that you do not understand about this? KEEP THIS IN YOUR NOTEBOOK.. PUT THIS IN YOUR BOOK.. whatever it takes for you to understand Armenians are not haters like denialists and Turkophiles of what is true and just…

     …..you sure are piece of work.. .

     Reply

658. gor

     thank you for accepting my apologies. Actually I feel that you and I argue and i hope it will strengthen us in our attempts to fight for justice as we believe in it. That we disagree is another matter. With Avery it is different. I have problems in relating to him, not least in the light of his last post  on my CV

     Reply

659. It would clear out alot of questions about Ragnar if we do see the introduction of his book Gor jan… but i doubt he will have the courage to do that… but then who knows???

     He might have two versions (one to pull a wool over our eyes by pro Armenian version and the other pro-Turkish) of his book just like his split personality on these pages…possibility…who knows??

     Gayane

     Reply

660. Yet again, this discussion appears to be enthralled and obsessed with stating and restating the obvious – that today’s Turkey (and it’s supporters/paid hacks and lobbyists) officially denies the genocide. At this point, anyone reading these pages knows this well, and probably has known it well even before reading it here.  Restating the obvious ad nauseum with endless citations is not an effective way 1) to change behavior or thinking among the denialists nor 2) a way to curb their actions.  The best and only way to do that is to thoroughly understand the root causes of the denialism and pursue ways to address those causes. The facts and details of the genocide are not the cause of denialism. More likely, the causes are related to the psychological and political state of affairs in post-genocide Turkey and the legal threats posed by laws that make it criminal to even discuss the genocide in Turkey. Face it – the people who run Turkey know very, very well what happened to their Armenians, including the how and why. They will neither discuss it nor acknowledge it, not because of micro details related to the burning of a church full of people, but because of macro reasons related to the extermination of 25% of the population and the residual economic consequences of today that will surely come back to bite them in a big way.  Personal details and remembrances are important, but most important is to get Erdogan’s government to repeal article 301 once and for all, so that these discussions can take place openly in Turkey today, without threat and without fear.   Once that happens, the lid will come off and alot of truth will be revealed and exposed, and hopefully resolutions and reparations can be made.  The descendants of survivors, both inside and outside Turkey would appreciate this – they’ve been waiting for entire lifetimes for this – but the clock keeps ticking.    

     Reply

661. I personally accepted your apologies,   ragnar naess,  but, although I was insulted by your words just like any Armenian here, it wasn’t me who actually demanded your apologies. But you chose to apologize to me because, comparing to Avery’s tougher stand on Turkophile denialists, you chose a “softer” person and a more fitting way for you, not because “you and I argue and it strengthens us in our attempts to fight for justice as we believe in it.”  Actually, I don’t think I argue with you. Like I said before, I’m haunting you to rebut your Turkiophilic innuendos. I don’t feel I can take your words that you “fight for justice as you believe in it” as honest, because you never called the crime for which you “fight” by its proper name. Moreover, you use every opportunity and every dubious denialist source to equalize the methodical destruction of a race with wartime-related situational instances of atrocities or ethnic cleansing. If you didn’t determine the crime by properly denominating it, how can you “fight for justice”? Justice for what crime? Burglary?
     P.S.   I re-read Avery’s post on your CV twice trying to understand what so upset you in it that you have “problems in relating to him.” I found no remotely offensive word in his post. Or are you attempting to equalize your explicit affronts with a harmless post, just as you try to equalize the genocide of the Armenians with war atrocities against the Turks?

     Reply

662. Karekin,

     How do you suppose we can deter the Turkish government to deter from their Article 301?

     Reply

663. ragnar naess,    you ask me: “then you admit that the question is about the fate of civilians?” Not quite.  I admit that the fate of civilians who constituted a segment of a party to a war and the fate of civilians who were not a segment of a party to a war and were, in fact, detached from the wars in question or any other war, for that matter, cannot be juxtaposed. In other worlds, I don’t stop at the point of the fate of civilians, but take the circumstances surrounding their deaths into account, first and foremost. Through this perspective, the notion “civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent party” makes perfect sense, because although theoretically and legally the notion of protection of civilians in war arose specifically regarding the fate of civilians in countries at war, in practice there was no such a war recorded in the annals of human history that wouldn’t bring sufferings to the civilians representing one, both, or multiple parties to the war.

     I did comment on your point that “the fate of the Armenians cannot be equalized to the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria, but that according to the procedure of ICTJ one must also conclude that the Bulgarian Turks suffered genocide.” I categorically objected to the last part, stating that only one out of four criteria, namely: (ii) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group, by which ICTJ decides on genocide, is applicable to the Bulgarian Turks. None of the remaining three: (i) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (iii) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (iv) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction—can be automatically applied to the fate of the civilian Bulgarian Turks during their government’s wars with the Russians and Bulgarians.

     In the future, if you choose to give arguments and expect counterarguments from me, please refrain from citing cheap Turkish sell-out McCarthy, OK? How can a serious person—scholar or just a common bystander notwithstanding—take this phrase spewed by McCarthy seriously: “From the first days of the Russian invasion (emphasis mine) of Ottoman Europe (emphasis mine), Russian troops killed defenseless Turkish citizens”? Excuse me?!! Russia declared war on the Ottomans in April 1877 after the Bulgarians’ 1876 April uprising against the much-loathed Ottoman colonial rule in which Turkish irregulars, Bashi-bazouks, brutally suppressed the revolt, massacring up to 15,000 Bulgarians in the process. One of many atrocities against the Bulgarian civilians took place at a church in Batak where twelve hundred people, mostly women and children, took refuge. In a typically Turkish way, so familiar to the Armenians, these people were burnt alive in the church. McCarthy may babble whatever he wants, but the fact remains that it was not an invasion, but an officially declared war. “Ottoman Europe” is another masterpiece of this Turkish sell-out. From when Europe was “Ottoman”? Is this a correct toponym to use by a scholar who knows too well that only in the 15th century AD was Europe subjected to invasions and thence colonization by the Ottomans? Turkish occupation of the southeastern part of Europe makes the continent “Ottoman”? Ridiculous…
      
     I will address ICTJ points in relation—or irrelevance, to be exact—to the Bulgarian Turks in my next post.

     Reply

664. ‘ Restating the obvious ad nauseum with endless citations is not an effective way 1) to change behavior or thinking among the denialists nor 2) a way to curb their actions. ‘

     Well said Karekin.   (….sometimes the Planets apparently align just right)

     Reply

665. ‘Or are you attempting to equalize your explicit affronts with a harmless post, just as you try to equalize the genocide of the Armenians with war atrocities against the Turks?’

     Yes, Gor, they are. In their desperation  they see offense where there is none, while dispensing truly vile insults with reckless abandon. There was even a lame attempt a few posts back by Mr. Naess to label me Anti-Turkish for agreeing with Seervart that Turks are attempting to take over Europe. The proof I produced was Mr. Erdgogan’s public advice to his Turk compatriots living in Europe. PM  Erdogan is the elected leader of the State of Turkey. Elected in a free and fair election with 50% of the Turk electorate. Q.E.D. 

     (long post re non-apology for vile insult dispensed with reckless abandone coming up next, after a short commercial break)

     Reply

666. on Bulgarians.

     “Bulgariaaims to accelerate talks on damages claims fromTurkey”
     [Apr 8, 2011, 11:49 GMT
     Sofia – The Bulgarian parliament on Friday told the cabinet to accelerate talks with Turkey on the compensation of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Bulgarians who fled Turkey a century ago.
     Some 250,000 Bulgarians fled their homes in Thrace, north-west Turkey, when Turkey seized the opportunity during the Balkan wars to reclaim some of the territories the Ottoman Empire had lost over the previous decades.
     Bulgaria is now demanding more than 10 billion dollars to compensate the Thracian Bulgarian families who lost their property and assets. There are around 800,000 descendants of the refugees from 1913.
     The damages claim could play a major role in Turkey’s aspirations for European Union membership, because Bulgaria could condition its support on a settlement. ]
     (source: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1631657.php/Bulgaria-aims-to-accelerate-talks-on-damages-claims-from-Turkey)

     Reply

667. Gayane
     the questionable sources are the Andonian papers, the “Ten commandmens” and the book by Mevlanzade Rifat. 

     gor

     we disagree, and the Turks of Bulgaria was civilians according to the understansding of the time. And as I say, MCarthy’s work on this is not disputed. The ciphers you cite on the “Bulgarian atrocities” are inflated according to recent research, and anyhow it has nothing to do with the question of what was done to the Turks.

         
      

     Reply

668. Seervart – I won’t pretend to have an answer to your question, but I think 301 is a very serious, anti-democratic obstacle that is keeping the lid on any open and honest discussion of the genocide within Turkey. If they can use it to shut up a Nobel Prize winner, then it is enough to intimidate just about everyone else into silence.  So, it really has to go by the wayside.  

     Perhaps the time is right for Pres. Sarkisyan to cross that bridge and bring it up during a face to face discussion or phone call with Erdogan?  Certainly, the AKP has opened the lid a tiny bit with the willingness to return some minority properties, so maybe the call could begin by thanking and then encouraging him to go even further?  And then maybe, a discussion on repealing 301 will follow?  Of course, this is all hypothetical, but stranger things have happened in the history of the world. The Berlin Wall is no more, and the USSR is gone…so, 301 is sure to go into the dustbin of history at some point…I’m quite certain of that and once it does, more positive changes will follow. 

     Reply

669. Tongue-in-cheek, Avery, tongue-in-cheek.

     Reply

670. Ragnar– how convenient to use people who are supporters of the Armenian Genocide but you don’t lose a second to mention all the bought out authors and historians.. hmmmm… talk about fighting for justice as you see in it…you may have a point though Ragnar.. you may be fighting for something .. that something is TUrkey…you are fighting for the wrong side sir…..

     Oh and my grandma-in-law is Bulgarian.. do you want me to have her tell the stories of her childhood??? her parents fate in the Ottoman’s Turks?? Do you?? because maybe then you can get it through your Turkophile’s head that Bulgarians were murdered and massacred just like ARmenians and THANK GOD they fight back and fight back fierce… it was unfortunate that my ancestors did not have a chance to defend themselves when half their men population was barbarically slaughtered like animals…. 

     Gayane
           

     Reply

671. Avery jan– you are hillariou.. absolutely hillarious..lol

     I agree with you on planets do align from time to time and I know exactly what you mean..:)

     Gayane

     Reply

672. Gor jan- you nailed it my friend.. NAILED it… Ragnar did not apologize to Avery who was the first to bring up the issue of him being disrespectul… however, he chose a different route… HE also tried to create choas about me as well on these pages.. it seems like when the heat is on, he tries to defuse it by creating commotion about one of us who are strongly against his ideology and the way he is approaching Genocide matter.. .

     Now Robert the Turk is after me asking ME to debate with HIM.. debate between him and I.. seriously??? debate about what??  like what is th deal with these denialist??? they can’t handle the fact that they are defeated and there is no where to hide.. their true colors are out and we tried.. truly tried to make them see this.. but they keep pushing and pushing….unbelievable…. but he got his answer….

     Gayane      

     Reply

673. Karekin– i am sorry but why would Sarkissian thank Turkey for returning what was OURS to begin with??? why should we give Gul a big head to say “OH MASTER THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR YOUR kind gesture for returning not even half of what we used to own and stolen all by your ugly govt…”””..

     Seriously??? I am all for speaking with him but let’s talk on firm grounds and not on sugar cloated/ kiss their u know what to stroke their ego every time they throw us a bone…   it is just that Turkey gets their high .and that needs to stop…maybe i am just not as patience…

     Gayane

     Reply

674. ‘Perhaps the time is right for Pres. Sarkisyan to cross that bridge and bring it up during a face to face discussion or phone call with Erdogan’

     NO: Like Willie Brandt, PM Erdogan must first go to Yerevan, to Ծիծեռնակաբերդ…..We all know what he needs to do there.

     People of Armenia need to do nothing.
     Pres. Sargsyan, the man that represents RoA, needs to do nothing.

     It’s all up to the Turks. They are the defendants. We are the plaintiffs. Plaintiffs don’t negotiate terms: defendants do. If Turks don’t – too bad. Interest will keep accruing. 

     Armenians need to do nothing, but wait and watch from the sidelines.
     Their hubris has finally caught up with them: Turks are doing our work for us.
     Thank you very much. 

     Reply

675. Gayane,

     I’m still waiting for you to respond to my challenge to you for a debate!  

     Reply

676. Disagreement, Ragnar?

     What ‘real disagreement’ should be allowed to stand in the way of Turkey offering an apology and reparations?  Has Armenia not waited long enough and hasn’t Turkey avoided it long enough?

     I wrote the list of questions for you because I hoped to understand you better.  This is what I understand so far:  

     You believe that their is another side to the Armenian genocide story, other than the Armenian version.

     You think Armenians fail to recognize that there is another side to the story and are unwilling to engage in constructive argument/debate with Turks.

     You believe Armenians should be compensated monetarily but do not support land reparations.

     You believe Armenians should work to enhance their dialogue with Turks by first recognizing that Turks don’t see things our way and are immediately alienated by rhetoric that suggests that Turks have not evolved from their barbarian origins. 

      

     Reply

677. I believe that when someone does the right thing…and attempts to correct a wrong, especially one not done by they themselves, they should be encouraged, because it will (hopefully), lead them to do even more. That’s what a thank you is all about. It’s about someone taking the right step to reverse a wrong – not committed by him, but by previous governments.  A simple thank you costs you nothing, but can get you quite a bit in return.  It works in almost every environment, whether business or government, or just plain human interactions. It’s called gratitude. 

     And by the way, the way it works is that defendants and plaintiffs all show up in court to present their cases in front of impartial, objective judges and juries. They also all abide by the verdicts. This forum isn’t exactly that kind of courtroom, now, is it?  

     Reply

678. Gratitude is for those who actually deserve it Karekin.. Obviously Turkey has not earned that honor … so NO.. our President should not thank Turkey for their “kind” NOT act of returning our OWN properties…

     Gayane

     Reply

679. ‘…. but I believe your apology will be taken although it is noted that you avoided apologizing directly in response to Avery’s incessant demands. Just imagine what hysteria you’d wind up if any Armenian poster used such words with regards to the Turks.’ (Gor)
       
     Gor accepts Mr. Naess’s half-hearted non-apology for using the expression ‘disposed of’ when referring to our exterminated ancestors, albeit with an appropriate caveat. Gor is a  magnanimous man. I am several rungs below  his level of magnanimity…for certain type of people.
      
      
     Read the non-apology again: ‘I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”. I will be more careful with my language in the future.’  (Naess)
     Naess is  placing the  burden on Gor for presumably being overly sensitive. It is Gor who is at fault here for being offended. Really.
     No heartfelt, genuine  apology is offered to the Armenian People, to the Armenian readers of  ArmenianWeekly –   for the viciously Anti-Armenian insult.
     The problem is apparently with Gor: he (or Avery) gets offended too easily.
      
      
     I don’t accept Mr.  Naess’s  non-apology.
      
      
     Here is why. I would never allow myself to refer to even dead Turk soldiers as if they are garbage. Numerous other adjectives, but not ‘garbage’.
     Would anybody else in our camp, even the most hurt amongst us,
     allow themselves to call  dead Turk soldiers, much less  dead Turk civilians,
      ‘garbage’ (in so many words) ? 
     Yet this person refers to our innocent murdered children and babies as if they are garbage: forgive him ? When Hell freezes over, and not even then.
     It is a clear manifestation of  his deep hatred for Armenians. It is a “tell”. He despises Armenians. Everything else written by him is a standard illusionist trick: distraction on the one side, while real action goes on the opposite side.
      
      
     This person pretends he feels sorry. He isn’t: I know the type. He is just saying it, so that he can continue his ‘debates’ without some of us being in his face  every time he appears.
     That  refined procedure  of ours gets on one’s nerves after a while: it is not pleasant, they want it to  go away; so they come up with a limp excuse, some phony explanation. (many of you know some of  the lucky recipients of this successful  behaviour-modification treatment).
     They love posting at AW and engaging in enjoyable intellectual debates with knowledgeable and (too) tolerant Armenians.
     It’s a lot of fun, plus they can advance their Denialist agenda on the side.  Why not ? It’s a win-win for them.
      
      
     Boyajian already noted that it feels like she is on a merry-go-round with Naess.
     So what’s  the point of going round and round and round….and round  with this guy ?
     What is to be accomplished ?
     Does any Armenian  here really believe he/she  will be able to convince him to see things your/our way ? Will pigs ever fly ?
     Have any of you been able to convert any Denialist Turk or Turcophile by your efforts on these pages ? A single individual ?
     Even the rare ones  who apparently  accept the fact of AG on their own, want something in exchange for accepting it, e.g.  Armenians accepting the “suffering of Turks”.
     How would  that be different from Germans conditioning their acceptance of the Holocaust based on Jews’ acceptance of  “German suffering” – if they were to do so  ?
     Undoubtedly Germans suffered massively (e.g. firebombing of  Dresden), but what does that have to do with the Holocaust ?
      
      
     Now maybe there is a good reason Boyajian, Gor, and many others are debating Mr Naess over a span of hundreds   of posts. I just don’t see it.
     Obviously it hasn’t worked over a year of trying, so why bother. I believe a while back, our compatriot Anahit went through the same grinder for months – with identical results. So maybe my other compatriots can explain what is hoped  to be accomplished endlessly debating  with Mr. Naess. I’d be interested to know.
      
      

     As noted many times before, I firmly believe in confronting and countering the Denialist type every time and everywhere. And to use the opportunity to disseminate facts otherwise little known by the wider audience. [ Gor’s insert about estimated 15,000 Bulgarians massacred by Turks  is a good example (I didn’t know).]
      
      
     But why debate the AG – even at the periphery ? When we Armenians debate the  AG with the Denialists, we are playing their game. We are letting them set the agenda. Why give them any room at all ? Jews would never, ever allow anyone to even come close to discussing the veracity of the Holocaust. Never.  It is a mystery to me why so many Armenians are still trying to convince whoever. What the  heck for ?  Why do you need approval from them ? Who are they ? Let them bow and scrape for forgiveness for engaging in Denial.
      
      
     It’s  done. Enough debating.  It has been proven. A hundred times over. The recent revelation alone that Turks have been scrubbing and purging their archives should end any discussion. The ones who question it now or want to debate it now are the unrepentant, incorrigible Denialist Enemy. Shout them down. Don’t let them open their denialist  mouths. Block them at every turn. Drive them into a corner.  Force them to cower in shame and humiliation. Don’t debate – Denounce. Let me repeat: NO Jew would ever allow even a wisp of discussion around the historical fact of  the Jewish Holocaust. EVER.
     People are put in jail for denying it. Yet Armenians in their infinite tolerance and magnanimity allow themselves to be inadvertently ensnared  into the web of deceit and denial. I don’t get it.

     Reply

680. Robert.. AND I answered you many times.. so get off my case.. as your debate means nothing to me.. like you mean nothing to me..God….. talk about fixation….

     Oh another thing Robert…the debate you cry about has been done and many times over….the conclusion was you were disrespectful not only to my brutally murdered ancestors but also to us.. and you know why.. so instead of trying to sound intelligent by saying lets debate (I still don’t understand your obsession with this word and with me….like debating is goin to change the fact that you are someone who is very Anti-ARmenian…. you already have all the facts Robert…all of it… so stop this show ROBERT 1, 2, 3, or 4 or whatever number you are…… Turkey will face her demons and get over it.. sooner or later.. you might want to do the same Robert.. maybe then we can have a decent and honest conversation.. but until then I see you nothing but a denialists who tries in every way to cook up misinformation and chaos on these pages.. 

     Gayane        

     Reply

681. Avery jan- WELL SAID…

     I am sooo greateful for Gor.. to the depths of all ends for holding up the fight with Ragnar and/or all Denialists on these pages … and I say more power to him if he wants to continue.. because everytime Ragnar opens up a crack in our fight for justice, Gor immediately fixes it with STRONG FACTS AND DATA.. something Denialists can’t produce or Turkophiles can’t support…  

     Avery jan- you will LOVE Robert’s persistence on debating me…karta… merel ei xndaluts.. lol 

     Reply

682. right Gayane, I am sure you were waiting with baited breath for the rare opportunity to ‘debate’ one of the ‘Roberts’. Such an honor. 

     Reply

683. Karekin, No never, I don’t agree for Sarkissian calling Gul and thanking him, for what?  Their defeitist gov’t murdered our nation along with our cultural heritage and then confiscated all our lands, they owe us BIG time and there is no reason whatsoever to thank a gov’t that didn’t pay us back nothing yet and they still deny the Armenian Genocide.  I and along with me most Armenians were furious when Gul went to Armenia and our soccer team took off the Ararat emblem from their shirts, our Ararat that is the essence of our faith and our Armenianess.  Sarkissian kissed Gul plenty already during the defeitist protocol times, when indeed they didn’t deserve nothing of the sort.  The same as Avery has mentioned, Armenia and Sarkissian must stay put and the Turks who murdered our nation must come to us apologizing and returning everything that was confiscated after annihilating almost all our unarmed civilian population.  We have to stay put, strong, brave and confident, it’s their turn to pay us up fully.  And the world is watching.

     Reply

684. Several years ago, my car was stolen….it was found by the police. I had to pay to have it towed to my mechanic for some serious repairs.  Needless to say, I was quite upset about it all. Now, if the thief had driven it to my door and apologized for stealing it, maybe I would still have been angry, but probably less so.  Unfortunately, the last time I checked, not one government on the planet has pushed Turkey to return anything to Armenians or to reverse the appropriations law. That’s because most governments, including that of the US, are governing over stolen property on a massive scale.  The world has had 95 years to apply pressure, but it’s not happened.  People living in glass houses are very reluctant to throw stones. 

     The return of minority properties has come about as a result of significant internal changes within Turkey’s political establishment, and for that, yes, you should be appreciative and thankful, because without them, the (horrible) status quo would have remained. Every major human change needs a catalyst to put things in motion, whether it’s in a good direction or otherwise. This time, the Armenian community in Turkey is benefiting in a way they haven’t in many, many years.  No, it’s not perfect by any stretch, but it is a major improvement and I’m very surprised you don’t see it that way.  As they say, every journey begins with one step. We need to keep that in mind.

     Reply

685. Avery, on another thread on this site some one stated about Armenians:
     “Damned if we do and damned if we don’t.  I say we do! 

     I share your anger and frustration with the genocide deniers and the predicament they put us in.  What do we do with them? Do we ignore them?  Do we refuse to engage with them?  Should we debate and argue with them. Do we curse them?  Make voodoo dolls (tried, doesn’t work)? Should we expose them as opportunists or evil doers?  Write to the newspapers.  All of the above?  None of the above?  

     I lean toward doing something.  I see that you do too.  And Gor, Gayane, Seervart, etc., Each in our own way.

     Reply

686. Ragnar,your ‘disposed of’ was very insulting & no common sensed man
     & specially a person such as you could use it unintentionally.
     Since then I’ve stopped reading your comments.

      

     Reply

687. Make no mistake – I am not challenging the genocide or any aspect of it. I am challenging the status quo of the last 95 years in Turkey that has led to the diminishment of the Armenian community. I see the return of Armenian properties as an important admission of their government’s past mistakes and criminality. This is a huge change of mindset being translated into positive action on our behalf. To this point, it does not go far enough, of course, but reversing even some bad laws that have been in place for many years and which were highly discriminatory to the point where people felt the need to leave their lands and homes is a major precedent we really cannot ignore.  It is good for the Armenian community. That’s all that really counts, but it is also good for Turkey…which I’m sure you realize, is also good for the Armenian community living there. 

     Reply

688. Karekin, I am not saying that when I saw these articles in here I wasn’t happy about it, yes I was that they are finally starting to turn around, and I am not denying the fact that when for so many years the Turkish gov’t tried to commit cultural genocide on Armenians after 1915 are not starting to come around; but how could this suffise after 96 years of denial of genocide and of cultural genocide towards Armenians?  Surely you can understand that although the payup has started but in no way near it, and we don’t have to thank them for it.  Our nation has suffered the very most, because not only we were near wiped out; but we were also denied of our sweet lands that belonged and was part of us and of our existence for more than 5 thousand years along with our cultural monuments that should have been the pride and joy not only for the Armenians, but for the world as well that it has been almost totally destructed.  Thanks to the Turks, or rather the Turkish governments of the past 96 years.  Out of the two, I find Abdullah Gul the more sane one and the more somewhat sympathetic towards Armenia and Armenians, but certainly not Davutoglu as he is more the fascist one out of the two.  Nevertheless, when CHP deputy Canan Aritman claimed that Gul’s mother is of Armenian origin, not only he denied it but he sued Aritman for it.  Now I understand that the ideology in Turkey is such that they’re still in denial of the AG and he is afraid of both his position and of the more Islam fundamentalists; but the fact remains that he even went as far as suing Aritman.  The fact is that yes it has started to change a little bit, but it’s not nearly enough whatsoever and certainly not to thank them for it, not now nor in the future.  For almost 100 years now they’ve changed the Armenian names of all the cities and the towns in Turkey and they never mentioned that any monument was created by Armenians nor Armenians ever lived in today’s Turkey.  But someone on these columns also said that trying to give back our buildings is the tip of the iceberg. 
     I happen to go along with that statement.

     Reply

689. While I sympathize with Seervart and share her emotions, I have to say that we lose nothing by saying thank you for even small gains.  It underlines the fact that the small gesture was the right thing to do, and a correction of a previous wrong; but it doesn’t mean we relinquish our right to ask for more.  Plus graciousness is its own reward.   Should a full helping of justice come our way someday, it will most likely come in small bits at a time.  We need to acknowledge and appreciate every step in the right direction as we patiently and tenaciously push forward toward our ultimate goal: justice for our martyrs and for our nation.  When that day comes, we will all have to give up our anger and animosity toward Turkey and live in peace.  It is probably easier to let that happen in small bits, too.  This is the opening of a door.  See the light?  Let it fall on all of us, Turks and Armenians.

     Reply

690. Avery,    I share your indignation and frustration with the Turkish or Turkophile denialists. I post here because I know I can beat one such denialist, jr scholar/practitioner/jurisprudent mr ragnar naess on historical issues. I also know that this publication is being screened by government agencies, domestic and foreign, and read by many visitors. To me, to leave naess’s fabrications unanswered would mean to inadvertently assist in his spreading anti-Armenian propaganda. Pigs will never fly, and I’m not naïve not to understand that naess will never switch camps. But I see my contribution in methodically knocking into the denialists’ heads that there will always be someone anywhere they crop up to haunt them.
      
     re: “No Jew would ever allow even a wisp of discussion around the historical fact of the Jewish Holocaust. Ever.”     Yes, but they do so from stronger positions as compared to the Armenians: their genocide has been acknowledged by the perpetrators and reparations are being paid annually. Besides, the perpetrators of their genocide are civilized modern Germans capable of remorse and repentance. Ours are unrepentant, haughty, and egomaniac Turks: former brutal colonizers, occupiers, and nomadic invaders.
      
     re: ragnar naess’s ‘apology’: ‘I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”. I will be more careful with my language in the future.’    I see it as a half-apology, not a non-apology. I personally took it as is, because this is not the first time ragnar naess apologized. I know he’s capable of apologizing, and one must value this in his enemy or opponent. Magnanimity and forgiveness towards enemies is also a weapon.  Got Christ?

     Reply

691. Boyajian, Karekin,     while I can be magnanimous in accepting an apology or a half-apology and forgive an enemy in a Christ-like manner, I nonetheless think we should be careful when it comes to saying ‘thank you’ to the Turks for their small, insignificant overtures. Had we known that Turks started making corrections of their previous wrongs out of the feelings of remorse and repentance, I’d say we should be similarly forthcoming. But we know that Turks make these overtures out of political considerations and under international pressure. Knowing this, why should we thank them for every small bit in correcting their own crime of physical extermination of a whole nation? In this, I agree with Avery, Seervart, et al.

     Reply

692. Hello Boyajian, Frankly I am not an unthankful soul, because I am; but it has been a very lengthy and patiently waiting period for all of us for us to be recognized from our unbelievable pains of our martyred people and for us too, then I keep remembering that our martyrs were the ones who in the belief of Christiandom they turned the other cheek and what did they get in return?  A horrific painful death of a nation along with our cultural lengthy existence that was demolished in its entirety.  It is very hard for all of us to turn the other cheek and be meek and giving in again when we know what has happened to our people and to us because we did that.

     Reply

693. Gor jan, You know where I am coming from.  I thank you for knowing it only too well why I feel the way I do, that I don’t feel confident in their actions as I don’t see much remorse on their part.  If they did, then they would have accepted the AG and have given us an apology by now.  I have seen it just within the past five or so years how they speak with both ends of their mouth.  After that, how can I intelligently feel they they really mean well for us.

     Reply

694. I personally don’t agree on thanking a country who stole my property and kept it for 96 years and finally AFTER continueous poking, probing, pushing, pulling, that country decides to give me back VERY VERY VRY VERY VERY VERY VERY small part of what is owed to me.. HECK NO…

     I hear you Karekin, and even Boyajian jan (even though I would not at all put Boyajian along the lines with Karekin..this is just to tell my side).. totally understand what you are trying to say but I can’t get my heart to accept the fact that the robber of our wealth and souls is still enjoying it without any remorse and wants to throw crumbs in front of us to say SEE, I STILL HAVE CONTROL OVER YOU PEOPLE and HISTORY… YOU NEED TO BOW TO ME because i decided to do this for you.. and I say to that HELL YOU WILL… it is hard.. very hard.. but the reality remains, Turkey is playing with us and with the world and if we encourage that by thanking for an action that should have happened 96 years ago is just a step to fuel their ego and boast their stand on the world’s arena.. can’t happen… so sorry… 

     If we should thank Turkey, we should thank Turkey IF she decides to turn herself into a fair, democratic nation.. we should thank Turkey IF Turkey changes her ideologies and how she treats minorities, we should thank Turkey IF they decide to reach out and give a hand to help her neighbors WITHOUT persistance of others… we should THANK TURKEY for an action that is taken entirely on HER OWN and not because they were made to do… why should we thank Turkey for something they could have done years and years ago but because now they feel the burning tip of pressure from the world, they decided to cover our eyes with their sly gesture.. i don’t agree with that and i am sorry they will not get a thank you from me..

     but i can’t wait to the day when I CAN say thank you to Turkey WHOLEHEARTEDLY… i definintely looking forward to that day…     

     Gayane

     Reply

695. Gor, point taken.   But don’t lump me together with Karekin (though I agree with him on some things lately.)  There is a subtle difference between us.   I am not so much interested in issuing a direct thank you to the Turks as I am in Armenians acknowledging our successes and small victories.  It is a mindset of a winner to be aware of each step while looking toward the finish line.  I agree that the Turks are responding to political pressure and have not matured enough as a society to recognize the need for remorse and repentance.  But I am grateful for this slight step forward (the tip of the iceberg) and hopeful for more pressure, more concessions on their part, and more gains on our part.  I doubt they will make such changes without political and international pressure.   Mostly, I thank God.   To Turkey I say, I appreciate the fact that these properties are being returned and await the return of or compensation for the rest.  

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696. Seervart says: how could this suffise after 96 years of denial of genocide and of cultural genocide towards Armenians?  The answer is that it doesn’t – not even close!  But…Boyajian is right to say that  ‘the small gesture was the right thing to do, and a correction of a previous wrong; but it doesn’t mean we relinquish our right to ask for more.  Plus graciousness is its own reward.’  After being denied so much for so long, I believe there is reason to celebrate this, however small it might be in the larger context, because we have to have hope and be optimistic that it will lead to even more positive outcomes. Boyajian had a very good comment – This is the opening of a door.  See the light?  Let it fall on all of us, Turks and Armenians.  I could not agree more, and of course, time will tell. The reality is that any positive outcome will have to come from Turkey itself, not from outside or foreign pressure (which has never been effective or ongoing, anyways), so let’s encourage the good, challenge the bad and keep on going. The goal is a win-win all around. 

     Reply

697. I understand Gor.

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698. Hi Seervart.  I am confused by the comments I am getting.  Turn the other cheek?  Give in?  Be meek?  I don’t think I said any of that.  Believe me, I am a fighter, in it for the long haul, but a good fighter knows how to pace things.   We have to win many battles along the road to winning the war.  And each battle won is one step closer to winning the whole thing, but you can’t gain strength from the small victory if you don’t take notice of it.  Back down?  Give in?  Be meek?  No.

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699. Thanks, Karekin!

     And thanks, Gayane.  You can’t get lumped in anywhere, either.  You are definitely in a class of your own, and I love you for it.  I agree with your heart, 100%

     Reply

700. Sorry, Boyajian,     I didn’t mean to lump you together with Karekin. It looked so because on a single subject both of you happenned to express similar views. But I know that your views differ on many other, more fundamental, issues.

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701. Karekin- no one is saying we are not happy, we are not thrilled to see some movement,  we are not optimistic but don’t expect me to say thank you to Turkey .. not just yet… We should not say thank you under these circumstances.. that is all we are saying.

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702. ragnar naess,     we disagree because you stubbornly refuse to accept the historical fact that although Turks of Bulgaria were civilians, the atrocities committed against them did not fall on them as pandemonium, as in the case of the Armenians, but because ethnically they represented a civilian element of a party to the war. Before the declaration of war by Russia in 1877, Turkish bashi-bazouks, true to their savage reputation, brutally suppressed the Bulgarian national liberation uprising, making no distinction between rebels and passive Bulgarian peasants, read: civilians. It is estimated by Dennis Hupchick in “The Balkans: From Constantinople to Communism” and Kurt Jonassohn in “Genocide and Gross Human Rights Violations: In Comparative Perspective”, that some 15,000 Bulgarian civilians were massacred by the Turks in 1876. According to these authors, in the Bulgarian villages of Batak and Perushtitsa, where the majority of the population was also massacred or burnt alive, none of the civilians had participated in the uprising. Many of the perpetrators of those massacres were later decorated by the Ottoman high command.

     What do you mean by “it has nothing to do with the question of what was done to the Turks”? What kind of weird logic is this? You mean to say whatever the Turks did—massacred, burnt and buried alive, mutilated, tortured, etc.—to the Bulgarian civilians that ignited the Russo-Turkish war had nothing to do with the reciprocal atrocities against Turkish civilians? Well, dead wrong: the latter was the consequence of the former.
      
     MCarthy’s “Death and Exile” has been disputed by such reputable scholars as Yair Auron, Colin  Imber, Mark Mazower, and Richard Hovannisian. Also noted is the extended title of McCarthy’s book: “The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922.” Although ethnic cleansing is of and by itself an exaggeration, but even this Turkish sell-out didn’t dare to call wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks a genocide, as you do. Thought-provoking, isn’t it?

     Reply

703. Oh yes indeed Gor jan… yes indeed.. very thought provoking… you think this will provoke Ragnar’s thought?? I doubt it but at least he has something to educate himself on Bulgarians and their fight for justice like Armenians did…

     I wish he could meet my grandma-in-law to hear her horrible and frightening stories when she was just a kid during those horrible times… maybe then he can find it in his heart to let go of his scientific stuff and concentrate on what is moral and right for once…

     Gayane    

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704. Gayane, have you guys recorded your Grandma’s recollections ?

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705. To be thankful for crumbs given back,which were originally mine?
     This step is just a Turkish trick & is not meant for us the minorities.It’s just a paint coat to brighten a muddied image & a move in their EU negotiations.
     Even if the whole bundle is given back I will never be thankful.I’m the one who has lived his whole life outside his homeland… & be thankful to them?Over my dead body.

     Reply

706. gor

     you write: MCarthy’s “Death and Exile” has been disputed by such reputable scholars as Yair Auron, Colin  Imber, Mark Mazower, and Richard Hovannisian. unquote. If you have any references I’d be happy. Needless to say there is no book which cannot be criticized on some point.  To ,my mind MCarthy is quite sober here, he mentions the massacres  of Bulgarian villagers done by the bashi-bozouks, atrocities committed by Ottoman army units. The point in my reasoning that is essential is 1) the death toll among Turks in Bularia, 2) the circumstances of flight pf these Turks (mentioned by the some 20 most important European newspapers) 

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707. Monastras
     sorry for misspelling your name in one of my posts, I was in a haste….
     I have not heard from you lately. I applaud the fact that you are here and engage in discussion because I believe every Turk should go into these dark aspects of the Turkish past much more throough and with a much more open mind that what I usually see. I am no enemy of the Turks, I have many Turkish friends both here in Norway and in Turkey. I have been working to dispell unjust criticism and negative views on Turks and Turkey. But I nearly always disagree with them on the question of what happened to the Armenians in 1915-16. The treatment in nearly all Turkish history books is onesided or outright false, even of I hesitate to use this word because I believe most authors believe in what they write. I know both from personal experience and from Norwegian handling of criticism of Norwegian practices that it is difficult to go into the black spots of the past, but isnt it necessary to become a truky democratic society? The thesis you put forward – that a major part of the deportaitons happened against the will of the central CUP is as i said quite new to me, and I wait for documentation. That Armenians were deported from areas that were far away from war zones, and that Armenian communities who never lifted one finger against the state were deported is one of the facts that puts the burden of proof on the Turkish side regarding the question of genocide. Other important points are 1) the admission of Talaat that they for political reasons, not to antagonise the Kurds, did not prosecute many perpetrators. This wilful omission must have  functoned as a signal to the local people that relocated Armenians was a legitimate prey, their lives, their honour, their posessions. 2) as Fuad Dündar recently has documented in his works, and Armenian historians routinely have pointed out, the number of Armenians to be resettled was much too big for the area designed by the CUP orders and  laws you mention. It was too big in absolute numbers for the area south of Urfa, Zor, parts of the hinterland of Damascus and so on. it was greatly to much if the decision that Armenians were to compose only 10% or 50% of the population where they were to be settled should be observed (needless to say a great number were never settled but perished on the way or in massacres) How is this to be explained? What was to become of the Armenians who did not fit into these plans be sheer numbers, assuming that the plans were sincere? 3) actual reports indicate that very few perpetrators at all where punished, although Turkish historians now produce some new documents that must be scrutinized by central genocide researchers, 4) Christian Gerlach has gone through the budgets of IAMM, the agency that organised both the resettlement of Muslims refugees from the Balkans and the deported Armenians, and he found that the sums allotted to Muslim refugees – according to the total number of refugees and relocated Armenians – was 70 times a big as the money accorded to the Armenians. 70 times as big !!!That is the calculated amount for each person. He said this in a seminar I organised in Oslo last year, I have not yet found his writing on this. What is one to believe about such a difference even if it may be somewhat exaggerated? What does it say about the mindset and intent of the leading ittihadists and Talat Pasha who was the minister of Interior at the time?      

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708. Dear  Great Armenian Scholar
      You wrote
     ragnar naess,     we disagree because you stubbornly refuse to accept the historical fact that although Turks of Bulgaria were civilians, the atrocities committed against them did not fall on them as pandemonium, as in the case of the Armenians, but because ethnically they represented a civilian element of a party to the war. 

     Armenians were exactly the same that’s why they were deported 

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709. You wrote: “Armenians were exactly the same (a civilian element of a party to the war) that’s why they were deported.” Kindly enlighten us, based on Turkish schoolbooks, as to what war with Turkey Armenia was a party to so that 2 mln Armenian civilians, ethnically representing a civil element of that party, were subjected to forced deportations and slaughters en masse by the Turkish government? Also, kindly enlighten us as to whether according to the Turkish mentality forced deportations from ancient habitat and mass murder of a whole nation can suit an idiotic phrase “that’s why”.

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710. gor

     my point was not that bashi-bozouks and the Ottoman military did not massacre Bulgarians. They did. My point was the application of certain juridical formulas to the quite similar fate of innocent Turks who for some reason never figure in the writings of the genocide scholars.  Moral rules are universal, they apply to all people, dont they? By the way,both criminals and innocent people have rights according to the conventions of human rights. Are you not applying guilt and refusing rights to certain ethnic collectives? Is this in line with modern thinking on human rights?

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711. If you want the best compilation of contemporary  news accounts in the American press about the genocide, as it was happening and after, you need to find a copy of The Armenian Genocide, published by Richard Kloian in 1980. Everything you need is there in exhaustive, original detail. For those who want original source material, it is essential. 

     At the same time, for anyone to tout Lewy, McCarthy, Lewis and others of that circle as providing honest scholarship on the genocide is highly suspect, because these people have a well documented, stilted, partisan agenda to convey that seems to twist and ignore the facts of history in a decidedly anti-Armenian way.
     to promote.
       

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712. Bingo, ragnar naess,     since you now admit that McCarthy—who seems to represent the center of academic universe to you—mentions the massacres of Bulgarian villagers done by Turkish bashi-bozouks, then an elemental chronological analysis must tell you that the killings of the Bulgarian civilians of 1876 occurred before the reciprocal killings of the Turkish civilians of Bulgaria in 1877 and served as one of the major reasons for Russia’s entering, not “invasion”, the war against Turkey. Word of the bashi-bazouks‘ atrocities filtered to the world and eventually reports found way into newspapers in the West. News stories about Ottoman Turkish atrocities against Bulgarian Christians were reported by an American journalist MacGahan, who toured the stricken regions of the Bulgarian uprising and whose reports confirmed the savagery of the Turkish retribution against innocent Bulgarian civilians.
      
     The death toll among Turks in Bulgaria is not essential for an event to fall under the definition of genocide. How come you readily present your reasoning on the toll in the Turkish case, but never mentioned the toll of the Bulgarians? Doesn’t the genocide definition mention a deliberate destruction of a group “in whole or in part”? Then based on this, the death toll is not an essential factor. The circumstances of flight of the Bulgarian Turks were indeed mentioned by European newspapers and given due notice, but you repeat the same mistake: the killings and the flight of the Bulgarian Turks occurred in a wartime situation in which they represented the civilian component of the Ottoman Turkey, a party to the war, whereas the killings of the Bulgarian peasants occurred outside such situation. Any sober-minded historian would draw a parallel to make sure which side initiated the mass killings and which side retaliated. Clearly, it was the Ottoman Turks in their best murderous tradition that started mass killings of the Bulgarians.
      
     And here are the references that disputed McCarthy’s work, to make you happy:
      
     Mann, Michael. The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing, 2005  [in which Mann warns: “figures are derived from McCarthy (1995: I 91, 162-4, 339), who is often viewed as a scholar on the Turkish side of the debate“]
      
     Hovannisian, Richard. Denial of the Armenian Genocide in Comparison with Holocaust Denial in Remembrance and Denial: The Case of the Armenian Genocide. Richard G. Hovannisian (ed.), 1999
      
     Roshwald, Aviel. Ethnic Nationalism and the Fall of Empires: Central Europe, Russia and the Middle East, 1914-1923, 2001  [in which Roshwald describes McCarthy’s version of the events as “defensively pro-Turkish”]
      
     Mazower, Mark. The Balkans: A Short History, 2002
      
     Reid, James J. Crisis of the Ottoman Empire: Prelude to Collapse 1839-1878, 2000
      
     Crampton, R.J. A Concise History of Bulgaria, 1997
      
     Campbell Argyll, George Douglas. The Eastern Question from the Treaty of Paris 1856 to the Treaty of Berlin 1878 and to the Second Afghan War, Vol. 2
      
     Vinton Greene, Francis. Report on the Russian Army and its Campaigns in Turkey in 1877-1878, 1879
      
     Dimitrov, Bozhidar. Russian-Turkish War 1877-1878, 2002

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713. Dear John oglu:   re: ‘….that’s why they were deported’

     I am not the Great American Scholar you are referring to. I am not much of a scholar, great or not. Our humble compatriot Gor is apparently the lucky gyavur that has the honor of being noticed by  your Excellency  the Grand Vizier. 

     But since you are a Great Denialist Turk, have you asked yourself what happened to the estimated 2-2.5 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire in 1915 ? Where did they disappear to ?

     And if Armenians were simply deported, why is your Turkish government furiously trying to scrub and purge their official archives pertaining to the era: what is it that they are trying to hide ? A simple deportation or something more sinister ?  Why would they  try to hide it if it was only a deportation ?

     Reply

714. ragnar naess,    there’s no need to beat around the bush. Your point, when we discussed the ICTJ’s four-point resolution acknowledging the Turkish crime against Armenians as genocide, was that the Bulgarian Turks in the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 “also suffered genocide”. Turkish bashi-bozouks and the Ottoman military massacring Bulgarians was brought by me to remind you that before wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks, Turks themselves committed massacres of the Bulgarian civilians. My objection is not with regards to the fact that Turkish civilians were also killed during the war. I categorically denounce your attempts to juxtapose massacres of people during a war in which they represented a civilian component of a party to a war and the deliberate genocidal extermination of Ottoman Armenians, who were detached, disconnected from any war theatre, perpetrated not by another party to a war, but by their own government.  Pardon me, if you don’t get it, then you don’t get it. Or you don’t want to get it. Or both…
      
     P.S.  An afterthought: if you think you’re not applying guilt and refusing rights to certain ethnic collectives and your reasoning is fully in line with modern thinking on human rights, why haven’t you for once mentioned the fate of the Bulgarian civilians who were massacred by the Turks before the 1877 war and the possible applicability of the ICTJ resolution to their fate? Why only and solely Turks? Obsession or Turko-centrism? Are you sure you’re not applying guilt and refusing rights to certain ethnic collectives except the Turks? Is this in line with modern thinking on universal human rights?

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715. Gayane,

     No, you never did answer me in this regard, as you claim. But okay. I respect your decision to turn down my request for a debate (FYI, no major debate was ever done to set the record straight. Requests were made to ANCA and the ARF party for two decades. Each time they refused, giving a variety of typically lame excuses [the reality being of course, that they can’t debate for fear of the truth coming forth]). Your “excuses” are at best weak, and at worst an escapist attempt to face the truth. This is also refered to as being a denialist. So, there you have it Gayane. You’ve made it clear that you are a denialist, even though you and others charge us with that term on a constant basis. Trying to muddy the waters of truth will not work for very long. We have several plans that will soon go into effect, one of which will legally force the option for having a major debate AND the openning of your archives in Boston (even without the establishment of the Historical Commisson). If you should change your mind and be willing to stand up for yourself, then let me know. We’ll discuss the terms of the debate that will be satisfactory to us both. Until then, you know that the majority of the claims made by you and the others just don’t stand up to muster. If you think that I’m wrong, then my invitational challenge for a debate with you is still on the table. I’ll be around.   

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716. Hi VTiger.
     You wrote:  “To be thankful for crumbs given back,which were originally mine?
     This step is just a Turkish trick & is not meant for us the minorities.It’s just a paint coat to brighten a muddied image & a move in their EU negotiations.
     
     I really do understand this viewpoint.  Why say thank you for the return of our lands designed to please others politically and not out of a change of heart or honest remorse?  Why say thanks for Turks finally doing what should have been done long ago?  Why say thanks when whole generations of Armenians were forced to be separated from homeland and culture for 96 years.  Why say thanks when we have had to endure lies and accusations and excuses which malign millions of innocent people? Why say thanks when borders are still closed and Turkey still sides with Azeris against us when they could choose to be neutral, or even supportive, as a gesture of reconciliation. And why say thanks when the devastation to population, culture, heritage and language may be irreparably damaged and no effort to take responsibility for the damage is being made.   I get it.  

     But even this small “return” makes me feel hopeful, and for this I am grateful.   Maybe not to Turkey, but definitely to God, to our friends in the EU, to fair minded, courageous Turks who aren’t afraid to admit the truth and to my fellow Armenians who have never stopped trying to find justice for our grandparents.  I say thanks because I need to, because I can’t only feel anger and loss.  

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717. Ragnar– do you know why Monastras has not been on this page lately?????

     Well if one is proven to be lame in her reasons as to why a Genocide can happen and then get caught red handed about a statement she makes without confirming or denying, of course she will stay away.. why embarass herself even more… denialists don’t have room on these pages Ragnar.. if i were you, i would be honored and gracious that we have communicated with you for this long.. THANK GOD TO our friend GOR for his patience and Avery as well.. …

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718. Avery jan– you asked if I recorded my grandma’s story.. well she is my grandma-in-law.. My sister-in-law is the one who told me the few stories she heard her grandma tell.. grandma does not want to discuss or talk about those times that often.. grandma joined our family recently so i did not have a chance to sit with her and my sister-in-law so she can translate it for me (grandma only speaks Bulgarian)… that is something I will ask my sister-in-law to do .. this simple act of recording these stories is priceless…..However, I recorded my Armenian grandma’s story where she remembers her father telling her the story of his (only survivor from his family) survival from getting shot by the Turk General..as well as I have a chapter from a book where my grandfather’s dad’s story was published along with all the letters of those families he helped find their orphans from all over the world…i just need to sit down and translate.. it is hard because it is in old Armenian language.. Syrian Armenian but that is my goal… and I will complete it…

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719. Boyajian jan- i totally agree with this statement .. Absolutely.. I just could not agree with thanking Turkey for the returns of the churches.. and thought that is what you were saying and confirming with Karekin… the thought of thanking Turkish govt under such circumstances should NEVER cross in any Armenian mind.. however, your below statement is what every Armenian on these pages and out feels…
     But even this small “return” makes me feel hopeful, and for this I am grateful.   Maybe not to Turkey, but definitely to God, to our friends in the EU, to fair minded, courageous Turks who aren’t afraid to admit the truth and to my fellow Armenians who have never stopped trying to find justice for our grandparents.  I say thanks because I need to, because I can’t only feel anger and loss.  

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720. Robert the Turk: you said the following:

     Robert
     September 15, 2011

     Gayane,
     No, you never did answer me in this regard, as you claim

     not only you called me a liar but you also called me a denialists without strong evidence… is this your way of trying to look like you have the upper hand? is this how you show you a man??? huh? i laugh at you..this shows how weak of a person you are Robert…

     Here is the original chain … and like i asked you before GET OFF MY CASE and stop harassing me with your debate BS….

     YOUR ORIGINAL POST to me:
     Robert
     September 7, 2011
     Gayane,

     Let’s you and I debate! Consider this a challenge. You ought not to have any problems, since you obviously know everything, and of course we Turks are nothing but cold-blooded denialist killers anyway, while your people have NEVER hurt a single soul and have always been the angelic victims of the mean, blood-thirsty, oppressive Turk (no mention ever, of course, of oppressions upon your people from other empires)! What say you?  

     MY ORIGINAL REPLY TO YOUR POST ABOVE (the reply you explisitly said I NEVER did)
     gayane
     September 7, 2011

     I am sorry Robert.. Until I know which one of you is posting on these pages as you know you played with our minds and hearts ther will be no you and I… sorry….  until you apologize to all of us  for contineously insulting my ancestor’s memory by lying to us, you have no room to even address your comments to me….. 
     YOU need to stop referring us as if we are saying the regular Turks are cold-blooded killers..No one .. I REPEAT.. NO ONE on these pages ever said that ordinary Turks are cold -blooded murderers…however, we DID say that your ANCESTORS were INDEED all the things mentioned by you… fact is a fact.. please face it, embrace it, know it, and realize it… but I will say this though.. I never said I know EVERYTHING.. stop spreading lies yet again.. but i know this Robert.. I know this very well: YOU are a DENIALIST…no questions about it.. and I stand behind my word…… sorry Robert (Roberts… who knows which one is posting) for being upfront …..
     Gayane  
     P.S. Robert.. I am sorry that you are a bit slow in comprehending alot of information on these pages but EVERY SINGLE question or a statement that you posed in your comment have been answered and answered with great details.. we are not playing broken radio.. please go find those posts and you will get your answers… stop wasting our time with the same questions you have answers to…  

     WHO IS LYING NOW ROBERT????

     Gayane

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721. According to you Robert the Turk Armenians are afraid to debate and [the reality being of course, that they can’t debate for fear of the truth coming forth]).(your statement)

     Well if that is the case Robert… explain to me why Turkey has been on a mission for years now to purge and get rid of all evidence related to Genocide in YOUR TURKISH ARCHIVES….??? It is absolutely amazing that the denialists grew 10 inch tongues knowing their govt pretty much wiped out all the original evidence in their archives and now they feel they WANT or DEMAND a debate.. why did not you losers offer debate years ago when the archives were somewhat in tact and untouched and Armenians finally decided to face you monsters (denialists and Turkish govt..NOT THE ORDINARY TURKS… ) I know Robert and them other denialists or Turkophiles LOVE to jump on every chance they get to call us anit-Turkish .. I wanted to make this CRISPY CLEAR..repeat… NOT THE ORDINARY TURKS…. and now you are threatening us with opening the Boston’s archives whether or not we want or not?? hillarious to say the least… go ahead and open the Boston archives.. what are you trying to tell us by that??? don’t think you are scaring us with your plan Robert…

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722. Dear Ragnar
     The reference book is “The Armenian massacres in Ottoman Turkey” written by Guenter Lewy(page.205 and onward). You may even find further  references in the book or you can simply write or telephone him to get more info from him.
     You wrote 
      there are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
     Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
     any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
     against the government. 

     If we believe that the local authorities also played an important role during the deportation, Why it is impossible for some local Authorities to deport the Armenian population from those areas? Do you think that the local army commanders did exactly what CUP instructed no more or more less? Can’t some of the local officials ignore or interpret the instructions from the Government in the way they like?
     I am sure more research should be done.But everything that the Armenians touch smells foul.The same can be said for the nationalist Turkish historians as well as ex-Marksist or extreme leftist people like Halil Berktay or Taner Akcam who only want to shoot turkey nothing else. You also said the Armenians doesn’t have to take their case to the ICJ. I am asking you why not? If the outcome will be in their favor. They will put an end to the denialism of Turkey. What prevent them to stay away from the ICJ? Doesn’t this show that I am not the only one who find their story dubious?
     I am almost certain if they had grabbed a peace of land from Turkey, there was going to no genocide remembrance day but instead they were going to have an independence day. It may sound harsh but this seem to be the bottom line of their story.

     I thank you very much reading my writing.

     Have a nice day

     MONASTRAS 

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723. Could you please kindly try to remember the name of the Armenian head Archivist who was appointed by the British in Istanbul and served 3 years during the occupation of Istanbul?Kazarian? Many thanks to the Great Armenian Scholar

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724. Boyajian

     Regarding your quesitons of my views, I will try to explain. I feel I have explained it  several times, but probably I did not do it well enough. at the moment I will only take one point, regarding cessation of Turkish territories. It is not right just to say that I am against this, as you say. there are areas that were densely populated with Armenians in 1914, and from an ethical point of view Armenian claims on Turkish territories cannot just be dismissed. We see that borders are redrawn sometimes, with the fall of the Soviet Union, the parting of the Czecks and Slovaks. Recently India and Bangladesh adjusted their borders. But there are several problems with the Armenian demands for territorial compensation. One is the existing population in the area, that is born there and would outnumber Armenians who might go there. It would not be right to expel these, and if they stay the “Armenian” lands would to a great extent be “Kurdish” and “Muslim”. To point to the situation several hundred years back would trigger questions from other peoples who were in majority on an area many hundred years back. We have the same situation with the Sami people on Norway. 400 years ago there were big areas with mainly Sami population, before the Norwegian settlement and state occupation of the area. But  only marginal Sami views rest on demands that Norwegians should leave areas in which Norwegians have lived for centuries. So I think that even if it is hard to deny Armenian claims from a purely ethical point of view, the question must also be adressed as a question of practical implementation in a world that will demand common rules, applying for everybody. Because of this I feel that the Armenian demands on land in today’s Turkey is more a symbolic than a realistic claim. One may of course agree with Harut Sassounian who a couple of years ago said that Armenians must be patient and stick to their demands, even if they appear as dreams. And in this situation I will just say that it does not sound as a realistic demand, or it is a demand that can only be met by creating new problems, as we see in the case of Israel and the Palestinians. But in view of the catatrophy befelling the Armenians through the genocide, I can understand the demand. 

               

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725. John, It is astonishing that you and your denialist friends here will say and do anything to get out of your government’s responsibility to the murder of the Armenian indigenous nation.

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726. Dear Monastras,
     yes, I found the text in Guenter Lewy’s book. He mentions orders from Talat from the end of August about halting the deportations, which all the same continued well into 1916, in spite of several more orders to stop the deportaitons. I have not checked the details, which Lewy does not give, but it appears that the great majority of Armenians that were deported, already were deported at that time, and were on the roads, or dead, or had arrived in their destination in Syria and Zor. So the alleged resistance of the CUP center anyhow came quite late, and represented no important check on the relocation. The problem with Lewy’s treatment is that he  makes no analysis in the face of what Armenian and other researchers say: that these orders were made for the foreign embassies and that the real orders told local officials to go on.  Hilmar Kaiser gives a very detailed description of the deportations from Erzurum. The local german consul was able to influence Talat to send telegrams about the security of the Armenian deportees, but he received continual news that massacres continued on the road from Erzurum to Bayburt and Erzincan and from there southwards to Malatya. So Lewy should have discussed this. What he in the end documents is that a number of written orders for the halting of the relocation actually was given. Unfortunately this is the weakness of Lewy, he is is simply intent on throwing doubt on the version of  the majority of historians, and in some instances he does this quite effectively – there are many weak points in their narrative – but he doesnt discuss the implicatipon of some facts. For instance, he holds that hardly any perpetrators ion massacres were punished, but he does not ask why this was so in  a serious way. And to my mind he does not document what you said: that a substantial part of the deportations happened in spite of the policy of the CUP center. If the order to stop deportations were sincere, it came too late to affect the great majority of the deportees, and he does not doscuss the question of the sincerity of the orders. Needless to say, official orders may be a smokescreen for other activities. This is not only a possibility in this case, but in much history writing. A historian must not rely on the documents of authorities suspected of duplicity. Possibly the orders from late august and onwards represented a sincere wish to spare innocent people, but I cannot see that Lewy documents this.  
      

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727. John-oghlu,     there’s really no need to demean yourself by addressing me as ‘great Armenian scholar’. I, for one, never claimed to be a scholar, least of all great, as opposed to jr historian/practitioner/jurisprudent ragnar naess. Your sarcasm only exhibits the primitivism of your mentality: in your little brainpan whoever states anything different from distortionist crap found in the Turkish textbooks or disseminated by the denialist state of Turkey merits sarcasm.
      
     It is also a general ethical norm of the civilized world—and I understand they may be unfamiliar with it in Turkey—to answer questions. I did reply to your initial post addressed to me, and, in turn, posed questions to you, as did another poster here, Avery. So, whenever you show reciprocity, as required in a civilized exchange of views—if you, as a Turk or Turkophile, know what it means—I’d be happy to answer your question re: an archivist in Constantinople during the Turkish defeat in the World War One.
      
     P.S.  If you have some kind of a psychological complex addressing people as ‘great’, go bow your head before the graves of ‘distinguished’ Great Turkish Assassins: Tallat, Enver, and Jemal. They were, indeed, ‘great’ in wiping out a whole nation from the face of the Earth. So bow your head and be happy to belong to the same ‘great’ ilk…

     Reply

728. Ragnar, I understand that you have sympathy for those Kurds and Turks who live on lands that are the traditional home of the Armenians.  After the forced absence of Armenians for 100 years, they now view these lands as their own.  It is important to take their rights into consideration, but not at the further deprivation of the Armenians.  I don’t have a crystal ball and couldn’t tell you how we will solve this complex issue, but I believe with the right spirit of respect, compassion, and compromise from all parties, a solution can be found.  In this way I agree with Harut Sassounian, and I am not ready to give up what you might consider an unrealistic dream.  Further, you assume that Armenians would expel (or worse) all Kurds and Muslims, and create our own version of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.  Here I think you are being limited by prejudice and lack of imagination.  Reconciliation and mutual respect can go a long way to solving age old problems.  And we can’t hope to achieve these high ideals unless we first dream of them and then strive for them.   First Turkey, Kurds and Armenians must agree that reparations of some sort are due to the Armenians.  That is the beginning.  Then compromise and concessions come into play.  We Armenians have to hang on to this belief, or simply succumb to the last blows of the genocide that was set in motion by Turkey,  and slowly die out along with other forgotten nations long gone.  In my mind, Turkey owes the world, not just us, an admission of guilt and a show of remorse in the form of monetary and territorial concessions to the Republic of Armenia.  Perhaps the Treaty of Sevres boundaries can never be achieved, but you have to start somewhere.

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729. Gor, how can Ragnar possibly continue arguing for parity between what happened to Bulgarian Turks and Ottoman Armenians without also recognizing Turkish atrocities against Bulgarian Christians, which came first?  One question: Are ‘Bulgarian Turks’ ethnic Bulgarians who were converted to Islam or are they ethnic Turks living within the Bulgarian territories or both?  And who were the Turks who attacked the Bulgarian Christians?  Were they ethnic Bulgarian Muslims or ethnic Turks.  Pardon my ignorance of this history.

     Ragnar, it does appear that you are still overly influenced by the Turkish revisionists, though I appreciate the increased balance in your recent posts to Monastras.

     Monastras, I think your loyalty to your government is clouding your thinking.  Even if local Ottoman governors carried out acts on their own, against Armenian civilians, and even if these acts were against the wishes of the CUP, who is ultimately responsible for the murder and displacement of 2 to 2.5 million Armenians?  Who should take responsibility for this crime? No one?  No handful of village governors could have carried out such uniform destruction to an entire population without at the very least, the depraved indifference of the ruling national government.  And countless researchers have shown that depraved indifference was not the case.  Don’t be so blind.  

     Reply

730. Both, Boyajian.    Turks in Bulgaria are descendants of Turkic settlers who came from Asia Minor across the narrows of the Dardanelles and the Bosporus following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the 14th-15th centuries. Turks in Bulgaria are also Bulgarian Christians who were forcibly converted to Islam (in the best Turkish ‘tradition’ as we, Armenians, know full well) by the Turks and became Turkified during the centuries of Ottoman rule. Some fragments of the Turks in Bulgaria may be descendants of earlier Turkic tribes of Cuman, Pecheneg, and Oğuz, that originated in Central Asia and then moved to the areas near the Volga River, and to the lands between northern Caspian and Aral seas. These tribes are mentioned in almost any scholarly account on the medieval Khazaria, a Turkic state that existed in areas adjacent to northern Caucasus and northern Caspian, with which Armenians, too, had bitter encounters (Khazars were the enigmatic people who voluntarily converted to Judaism nationwide. Some theories hold that the European Jewry is actually the descendants of the Judaized Khazars, not the Egyptian and Palestinian Jews).
      
     Turks in Bulgaria became an ethnic minority when the principality of Bulgaria was established after the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 to which ragnar naess so loves to refer when making absurd comparisons with the fate of the Armenians. Before the war, because Ottomans lacked adequate regular troops in Bulgaria, they ordered irregular bashi-bazouks to attack Christians to quell the Bulgarian national liberation uprising of 1876.  Bashi-bazouks were drawn from Muslim inhabitants of the Bulgarian regions, who were ethnic Turks, Circassian refugees expelled from the Caucasus, or Crimean Tatar refugees expelled during the Crimean War. According to American missionaries’ estimates, as many as 15,000 defenseless Bulgarian villagers had been slaughtered by these fanatical Muslims. Bulgarian historians give estimates from 30,000 to 100,000 people.

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731. Boyajian,

     you fail to see that my judgement about the Bulgarian Turks is a limited, formal appraisal of the mortality and the type of crime that produced it. It has nothing to do with positing the events in a historical framework. The atrocities against the Bulgarian, yes, they happened, but they were not my theme  this time.

     Reply

732. and please, boyajian, I have not argued any “parity” or “equality”. Read my text!

     Reply

733. Ragnar

     Now you can answer my other questions.I understand that Lewy appears to make it short however, you should be able to find may references from him or his book.This guy is nearly 90 years old and a respected American scholar. If you followed the news you should know his latest story with the Armenians.
     Boyajian
     I do not care about what the government or the Turkish historians say. I am only trying to understand the details and the logic of the Armenians. As far as I understand from all these coversations, sevres treaty, land claims etc. I can assure you there will be no peace between the Turks and the Armenians in the future. I seriously think that the Armenians aren’t wise enough to understand their position. Bear in mind that Armenia was also created with the approval of Turks. You can sit back in your office in USA and dream all day long but the more this sort of claims find more space in the Armenians mind the more danger lurk at the neck of Armenia. You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbour so If it gets to the points that the tension escalates, I do not think that Russia will be able to save the Armenian nation. I hope every body think and act wisely

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734. The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16.

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735. boyajian

     you write:
     Further, you assume that Armenians would expel (or worse) all Kurds and Muslims, and create our own version of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.  unquote.

     No, I dont. Where did i write that?  

     And I am not more balanced. I say what has been my opinion the whole time. Only this time I discuss with a Turk.   
       

     Reply

736. good post Boyajian (‘, I understand that you have sympathy…’). Well said.
     

     If Armenians had listened to the advice of foreigners in 1988 as to what is realistic or not, what is possible or not, there would be no Free and Independent Artsakh today.

      

     Reply

737. It is sooo hillarious to read Monastras Anti-Armenian and denialist comments… truly amazing to see how she continues to show her primitive and under priviladged knowledge of the history.. Someone who references Lewy as her guide to history is automatically disqualified.. Lewy is Turkey’s bought out historian/writer  and it is sooo obvious that his work is only referenced by denialists and Turkophiles… how convenience and stupid….

     Gayane

     Reply

738. John-oglu (I still don’t get why you are hiding behind such a Christian name as John)  i would suggest you joining Monastras, Kurt, Robert and every denialist on these pages and do read a book written or published other than your Turkish govt or Turkish bought out writers.. maybe JUST MAYBE you may learn or educate yourself enough so that you don’t ask dumb questions or make outrageous statements….

     Reply

739. Boyajian…as much as it might feel good to wish for, to dream about or to otherwise yearn that territory in eastern Turkey be handed over to Armenia, I think this fantasy of turning back the clock to some mythical spot in history really should stop. It is not serving anyone in a good way. Even if Turkey eventually admits its genocidal intent from 1915 on, do you really think an Armenian government sitting in Yerevan – with very little experience in running anything very well – could actually govern over a Kurdish and Turkish majority?  Come on. Get real. 

     If 2 million Armenians living on their own land in 1915 couldn’t stop what was happening to them at the time (and were decimated in plain view of the world), why do you think it can happen now, when virtually no Armenians are living there?  The whole idea of it is fanciful, to say the least. And, hypothetically, even if Turkey admits to something horrible and heinous by the CUP (which is public knowledge, by the way)…then what?  Who gets compensated?  How?  Does Armenia or the descendants of those who lost something?  What if there are no descendants still around?  Then what?  

     So, while it all sounds like it makes sense, someone really needs to ask if it does, in fact make any sense at all?  And then, what are the probablities that anything concrete might come of it.  In a world that is harsh and obsessed with other things, and overlooks murder happening on a daily basis or actively encourages it thru senseless war, or actually engages in it, I think the chances of seeing the status quo change much are slim, to say the least. 

     More than anything, although I’m all for doing research and confronting both silence and the denialists with the hard truths, I really think we should be encouraging Armenia to cement its relationship with Karabagh and finalize it, and then just get on with things.    

      

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740. more re: ‘….that’s why they were deported’

     “Turks killed 15,000 Armenians in Bitlis, in 1 day – Ottoman army general” (Venezuelan General  Rafael de Nogales Méndez, voluntarily serving in the Ottoman Empire.)
     http://news.am/eng/news/74308.html

      

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741. This statement in my last post may be unclear:   “And countless researchers have shown that depraved indifference was not the case.” 

     What I mean is that researchers have determined that it was not merely depraved indifference, but deliberate and orchestrated plans. 

     Reply

742. ‘The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16.’
      
      
     The obfuscation and subtle Denial continues by Turcophile agents of Neo-Goebbelsian Ministry of Propaganda.
     First it’s the  ‘disposal of’  exterminated Armenians, including children and babies.
     Now they have peacefully ‘died’. Not brutally murdered, not cut to pieces while alive, not gassed in caves, not burnt alive in Armenian Churches, nor  their bellies cut open to play a game of “guess the baby’s gender” – but ‘died’. So serene, so peaceful…..they simply died when it was their time, you see.
      
      
     I will defer to my humble compatriot Gor to address the other tidbit of disinformation – ‘The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000….’

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743. I herewith request  Avery and others  who might  wish to give me a hand and ascertain  that above short  post  by GAYTZAG  is  another  person.I always sign  with my surname Palandjian  next to it.Also the editor  and Administrator could actually  find  that  out and clear  up any misunderstandings.
     To add  that  in his  post  Gaytzag-not  me Gaytzag  palandjian- DID  NOT SAY ANYTHING    that  would hurt  me or even try to stick something unpleasant-so to speak- to my name.
     I only wish to make it clear  that I did   NOT  place  those few lines up there.
     Thanks for reading me and awaiting clarification ,if possible  by GAYTZAG  also. 

     Reply

744. NOW  MY BIT<ESPECIALLY TO KAREKIN .
     Our  Third World Armenian Congress that convened  in 1985-in Paris,the 2nd was  in Lausanne CH, The First  in Paris  1979. There were Turkish  correspondents  to either Hurriet  or Jumhurriet  or Gyun aydn  , or some such. After one  of the sessions, we used to get out to adjoining hall and refresh   a little. Sometimes, rather almost  always  in small groups .I noticed  one  larger group and approached  it.The Turkish correspondent  of one  of above  newspapers was surrounded by Young Armenians ,men and women. They were really putting pressure  on him with statements  re  the massacres and atttrocities perpetrated  upon our people  and  this chap, the correspondent , quite  well educated and prepared  rather to shoot  back his questions at the group such as >/
     Why  don’t  you look around a  bit ..there have been other important  massacres and attemps to annihilate totally other nations..such as  the Red indigenous Indians  of  North America, the Khmer rouge  in CAmblodia, ,Ruanda etc.,
     Exactly at  that  point  I asked permission from our young  to intervene and did so,saying./
     What  you say true,we are  not the only ones submitted  to such attrocities,but almost  all of  these have been properly acknolwedged  or made to acknowledge  and make reparations,most importently some have  asked  for forgiveness,which is more  hUMAN.
     The Hurriet  correspondent would not give  up and was waiting my intervention to finish and then shot  at  me, where do you hail from ,please  introduce  yourself. I told  himI am from Spain-then-and he said woudl you really GO BACK AND LIVE>>WHERE DID  YOU SAY  YOUR PEOPLE  CAME  FROM  ERzEROUM…yes  I toild him. I would go back and forth as  many times as  necessary.The lands  there  mostly are  left  uncultivated, homes  in ruins.I told  him no worry we from Diaspora  wojuld  BIG  FUNDING  take Caterpillarts  there and rebuild  the towns, schools  churches  etc.the he siad.
     DO YOU KNOW  THAT  ON THIS  SIDE  OF THE FCRONTIER  THERE ARE  HUGE  U>S> BASES>>>I shot back I know, but  do you know  that on the other side  also…
     ARE  YOU A COMMUNIST  HE  SAYS>  nO i TELL HIM< MATTER  OF FACT  AM A SMALL CAPITALIST> BUT IF NEED BE  i SHALL BE  A COMMUNIST  A  mAOIST  A WHAT  NOT  FOR MY COUNTRY>>>>HE STOPPED  THERE>>>
     yOU SEE  KAREKIN  WHAT  YOU WROTE ABOVE  DOES  NOT HAVE ANY SUBSTANCE>
     ONE MORE  THING  MY  PERSONAL  VIEWPOINT  IS  THAT  WE ARE TO DEMAND  FIRST  AND  FOREMOST  IN THE FIRST  PLACE        b   l   o  o   d      m  o  n  e  y  ….it has precedent <I REFER TO THE JEWS  FROM GERMANY>>>>>CAPICHE-iTALINA-DO YOU FOLLOW  WHAT  i AM SAYING>>>FIRST  THINGS  FIRST  AND EVEN  IF A SMART  MAN  IF YOU ARE  LIKE THE ABOVE CORRESPONDENT  THEN YOU WILL SHOOT BACK AT  M E OUR tREASURY is almost  empty  what  with global recession etc.,  
     my response  then< WHEN THE OIL PIPE  LINE WAS ERRONEOUSLY OR INTENTIONALLY BY PASSED ARMENIA  -+SHORTEST ROUTE  BY  BP AND ESSO AND OTHER< THEY ARE PAYING NOW  !>^ BILLION DOLALR S  AYEAR TO GREAT TURKEY>>>>
     IF AND WHEN  WORLD  HAS CONDEMNED  GREAT  TURKEY< THESE COMPAN IES  SHOULD B E  MADE  -BY THEIR GOVT>S  TO PAY PART  OF THAT  TRANSIT DUTY TO  ARMENIA AND ARMENIAS>>>THIS  TIME  OVER  THERE IS NO ESCAPE  FROM  BEING FINED < KAREKINB < OR  JOHN  OR  WHOEVER  THINKS WE ARE THE SAME  OFLD ARMENIAN  RAYA  ERMENIS>>>No siree we  MEAN BUSINESS… 

     Reply

745. boyajian

     I come back to your questions:
     What ‘real disagreement’ should be allowed to stand in the way of Turkey offering an apology and reparations?  Has Armenia not waited long enough and hasn’t Turkey avoided it long enough?
     comment: By “real disagreement” I understand that there is not only a tactical move to deny what the other say, in spite of nowing that the Other is right. Real disagreement means to me 1) that the people you disagree with are sincere, 2) that there are aspects of your convicion that is open to doubt (if not, you are some sort of fundamentalist). Regarding the Armenian cause, we have the three contributions (Andonian, ten commandments, Rifat), that used to be quite prominent in the Armenian narrative, and on which there is now silence. This was a real disagreement, and Armenian scholars have tacitly recognised the other side as right. Another aspect is that many Armenians believe that the overwhlming majority of relevant historians agree with them, this is not so. This is a real disagreement between many Armenians on the one hand and many Turks on the other hand. I believe the Turkish side is right. Many historians who cannot be dismissed diagree. If they are right is another matter.

     Because there is real agreement Armenians must not treat Turks just as a recalcitrant child, Armenians must ARGUE.   I get angry because I agree that you were subjected to terrible injustices, but some of you simply function so as just to make this trauma continue and continue. There is a Turkish-Armenian youth movement (I beliecve the name is “nor zartonk”) who critizices other Armenians for what they call “the chosen trauma”. Karekin has been commenting on this.

     you write:   
     You believe that their is another side to the Armenian genocide story, other than the Armenian version.

     comment: As said before there are many points about which one cannot for 100 percent be sure, for instance the intent in the upper echelons of the ittihadists. This is simply an article of faith in many Armenians. This is psychologically understandable, but unsatisfactory from the scholarly perspective. But I am sure that the ittihadists committed a great crime, by wilful omission or by direct intent, further that Turks will have great trouble answering this accusation. They prefer to discuss with the Armenian hotheads who use vile language and wave the banner of the Andonian papers.

     you write:    
     You think Armenians fail to recognize that there is another side to the story and are unwilling to engage in constructive argument/debate with Turks.

     comment: I cannot talk about all Armenians, but I believe that this is so. Armenians risk to ruin their case because they argue in a way which will make people offended and stop discussing. This does not apply to you, as you are almost always courteous, which I think is wise to be. But others, like Avery, to my mind, is a catastrophy for the Armenian cause. That is, if he is let loose on an audience which is not composed of people who are already believers, and bound by the loyalty to fellow believers to accept anything as long as you repeat the slogans. In every movement there are those people who are a liability for the cause. The clever Turks would be very happy to have Avery as an opponent in a forum of Turks who are not sure what to think, that is if he behaves as he does here. Many of them will turn their back to the Armenian cause in disgust. You know, politics very often has to so with whom you select as an adversary, you have to select the one who can discredit your opponents’ views by his or her coarseness and lack of argumentation.  
     you write:
     You believe Armenians should work to enhance their dialogue with Turks by first recognizing that Turks don’t see things our way and are immediately alienated by rhetoric that suggests that Turks have not evolved from their barbarian origins.

     comment:

     Yes, Armenians should do dialogue with Turks, preferably in Turkey. But then you must stop portraying the ones you want to discuss with as barbarians, liers and so on from time immemorial. I am amazed that many participators here appears not to realize this. It is as if the one thing they really care about, is the opportunity to be with others and vent their anger and frustration together.  They dont care about results or already despair about results, because they behave in a way that the would bring them no good in any other setting (negotiating on the job, arguing in a school meeting as a parent of children, they have accustomed themselves to develop another personality when they exhibit their Armenian-ness)This is a result of the great trauma your people has experienced and which Libaridian puts very nicely in his article “The past as a prison as as a new future”. But I am afraid this trauma also produces a negative culture of victimhood, one simply loves to complain……

       
     I hope this made my position clearer.       

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746. gayane (or gayan-ian), I’d love to have your real name, and your CV. Or are you hiding? Maybe robert is hiding, but are there not others her who hide?

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747. monastras

     arent you talking in a threatening way now? Is this wise? Turkish military might is not a panacea, and not a good answer when your arguments fail. If you believe so, I suggest you joint the army and leave the Armenian Weekly…..

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748. Sorry Gayane, I meant that John was hiding, not Robert, who really seem to be hiding now. An I have to admit that the john-oghlu pun is really funny!

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749. Let’s talk about Bitlis…  where in a cold winter night in 1916, Armenian Fedayi surrounded the city which was rather easy since it as ringed by high hills, all deep snow covered.  They were leading the Russian Army which was moving slowly with their heavy gear and artillery.   The local Ottoman commander had quiteley removed the bulk of his small garrison to save them since he had realized he had little chance against a large army.  Promised help was days away, though a young Pasa named Mustafa Kemal was force marching his troops to save Bitlis, leaving Irak front open to British assault, he would not make it on time.  People of Bitlis woke up to find machine guns placed all around.  Massacre continued all day.  Fedayi went house to house, searching, raping and killing.  It was relatively easy since most able men were at multiple fronts, fighting.  Bodies piled up.  A young relative was buried and hidden under the pile and was able tell some of the story later.  Sisters of grandpa, all good shots, receded into the old cemetery and resisted to the last bullet.  You know what happened to them.  Bitlis fell to Armenian irregulars and Russians like many other cities in the area.  They were all depleted of their Muslim populations by Armenians, even to the horror of their Russian allies.  People still to this day find mass graves of Turks dating from that era.  Some of the many stories your grandparents negelected to pass along.

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750. It is patently absurd that Armenians have to work so hard to defend the truth about all this and, it is even more absurd that anyone, Americans, Turks or anyone else, would attempt to dispute or rewrite history to reflect the distorted, propagandist version as outlined by hardline Turkish nationalists. The numbers, astounding as they are, don’t really matter and neither do words. The actions of a government, that of the CUP, against a major component of Ottoman society, were watched by many on site observers and reported on almost daily. Unless those people were all deaf, dumb and blind, someone is lying – and I will tell you, it’s not the Armenians!  Their own government turned on them just like the Nazis did thirty years later, in another exhibition of insanity.  I’m all for reconciiliation, but I am not for lies or propaganda.  Remember people, the truth will set you free.  

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751. Monastras,you say quote:
     You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbou
     Unquote
     You above statement shows what an ignorant twisting person you are.Turks can be as much angry as they want.They are angry with US,EU,Iran,Syria,Israel,Armenia,Greece,Cyprus,Bulgaria,Iraq,China,Russia… they are even angry with North Cyprus…of course we should not mention that they are angry with Kurds of Turkey to start with,then Iraq,Iran,Syria…& the list goes on & on.That’s zero problems with neighbours.That’s Turkey for you
     That neighbour that you mention above’Aliyevistan’ is angry  with Turkey as they are forcing it to sell its gas to Turkey at 1/4th of the international prices.Read wikileaks…Two brothers one nation???
     Last week an Azeri drone was shot down over Artsakh with a hunting gun & Aliyevistan is denying…how common Turkish thread…always denying!

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752. Gaytzag P-  I am not sure what you are referring to… the person by the name of Gaytzag said nothing wrong or absurd for you to take such steps as to clarify which one you are.. guess i am confused…:)

     Avery jan– well said my friend well said… 

     Reply

753. Karekin- I don’t know if you are worst than ragnar or any of the denialists on these pages but sometimes you make sense but sometimes you say things that causes my mouth to drop to the floor.. example would be your last post.. are you freaking serious????? you got to be kidding me right????

     Reply

754. Boyajian,Turkish Genocide,killings of Armenians & theft of what belonged to us went hand in hand,continued & continues until today.As I said before even if they gave back the whole total lot that’s ours I can never & will never be thankful.Being thankful for the crumbs or even the whole lot given back,means being thankful for the Genocide,massacre,rape,butchering of my ancenstors as theft & killings went hand in hand…
     It’s not on us the massacred victims, to build trust with our killer.That moral duty of building trust (if they have one) belongs to Turkey.You should understand that if there were no EU/Hague court cases,Turkey would not have even given back those few flats,buildings or few pieces of land in Istanbul…Just compare what’s given back to what they’ve taken from us…

     Reply

755. Monastras– are you by any chance related DIRECTLY to Talat, or Enver or to the third demented, retarded murderor because you speak of Armenians like animals..you are ready to wipe us out again if we don’t stop our fight.. you are one genocidal and retarded individual … wow.. and people expect Armenians to speak  face to face  with such denialists….if there is one here on these pages, imagine how many there are in turkish govt.. guess the ottoman era still lives in today’s denialists minds and souls… it is like the devil devoured their soul and heart along with their brains… it is absolutely disturbing.. i feel sorry for you Monastras… absolutely sorry… you will definitely end up in hell of speaking such threats to us….knowing very well what your ancestors did to my ancestors and now you want to continue that Genocide??? devil i say…

     Reply

756. The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16

     Ragnar you said many stupid, anti-Armenian and absolutely ridiculeous statements in the past… but the above statement t iakes the big trophy home….. you absolutely checked yourself in the most outrageously unintelligent and confused  jr historians school of the world…WOW.. all i can say is WOW.. you never cease to shock us… 

     Reply

757. Mr. gaytzag palandjian: The above short post by Gaytzag is definitely not you.

     I don’t think anyone thought it was you: the fact that you post your last name also makes it obvious – so no worries. 

     1. The icon/avatar is different. 
     2. I doubt anyone else could duplicate your highly unique writing style.
         (even if someone were to (mis)use  your exact same name).

     Nothing to be done: ‘Gaytzag’ is a fairly common Armenian name, although Anglicized spelling can be done several different ways. 
      

     Reply

758. Ragnar, your memory is short, but did you not once imply that Armenians would “do the same” to Turks if they were in control?  There was much uproar over this comment in a previous thread.

     Also, perhaps parity is the wrong word, but why else do you harp on this example of ‘sameness’ between Bulgarian Turks and what was done to the Armenians.  Clarify.  

     You talk to both sides of this conflict (Turk and Armenian) with different voices and emphases.  It appears you are not so much trying to understand as you are trying to ‘manage the conversation.’   The result is that it is unclear where you stand and what your goal is.  

     Monastras, this statement is flawed by your skewed turko-centric thinking:
      “Bear in mind that Armenia was also created with the approval of Turks.”  

     As if Armenia and Armenians didn’t exist for thousands of years before Turkey and Russia signed a treaty. 

     “You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbour”

     This is a false statement.  Azeri’s completely provoked Armenia into action to protect Armenians in Arstakh from massacre by Azeris.  

     Karekin, you will never convince me that Armenians don’t have a legitimate claim to make in the Highlands. You can be a pragmatist, but we still need dreamers who set a goal and hang onto ideals.   Armenia is the place in the world where Armenians lived for thousands of years, referenced in the bible alongside ancient civilizations long gone, and anchored by Mt. Ararat.  Kings and rulers may change and borders on maps redrawn, but it doesn’t change what is the  ‘home’ of the Armenian.  But I agree with you on Artsakh.
     
      

     Reply

759. I request  -my fellow  forum posters  here and Editors  to forgive  my very bad typing-plenty  of typographical  errors.
     This is due to my having less time to spare,partially  old age setting in and also annoyed  by those Anti Armenian remarks  here…
     Furthermore, My real writings  directed  to  newspapers, such as  Hairenik weekly,USArmenian life  rarely are published. I take  it mostly because  they approve  of those  that are in line  with political party thinking.I respect  theirs and I do believe  they should also respect  “suggestions” come-exposed  from non party lines…
     For  mine  is the Re organization of the Armenian Diasporas around PCA’s Professional Colleagues  associations….  over a  100  thousand  that are not any more  the ”
     The silent Majority”  that  they used to label us,in order  them to be there at forefront.
     Time  has come dear  politico to by and by give  way to these PCA,s/
     Both Human  resources  and Financial  might  resides  in us the PCA  people.
     Otherwise  the status quo  that  they -the politico-prefer will not get them anywhere.
     The world today is based  on strong Finances with plenty of  owners  of  these…
     though by nature  I tend to be  Euro Socialist  minded,that  is Swedish style, I do admit  that  nowadays  the trend  is to build  up Finances and use  latter  to make wishes come true,be  realized  for  without  this substance  not much can be achieved…
     So off to realize  above  suggestions if  you will. 

     Reply

760. Thanks  to Avery for the clarifications.No thanks to Gayane, as I myself   made it clear  that  there  was important issue involved,but I wanted  to make sure it was someone else.
     No need  to get fired  up and write  taking  steps.What drastic steps did  I take..
     just a request for clarification and got  it. Non the  less with all the husle and busle  going  on here, to be on the alert  is good. You guys-not me- think it is something outlandish  that  some may be passing  themselves as  Turks or  are Turks,so what. We know  how to reciprocate. No problem for that .But, then again, I am surprised  no one comments  on the issue  that  I bring  up  of importance  that  of as an example./
     1. Our claims ought to commence    for    BLOOD  MONEY
     2. If great Turkey  -even after condemnation- would refuse to compensate,stating their coffers are empty  that  wise…then
     3. Those  who have taken sides  with  great Turkey-it is still there  , this one-I mean passage  of Oil pipeline via longer routes  by passing little friendly, nay, ally Armenia  -witness two WW,s…then  the Oil companies  are to be addressed seriously  and through their Govt.s  made  to be held responsible for errors  and at the very least  asked or impelled  to pay part  of the 1.6 billion dollars  of transit duties -that  they pay  now to great Turkey-to us. For,like  someone  wrote  here , they have been-great Turkey,i.e-on the receiving  end ..and I had  added  some  made  her , encouraged  her  in that direction. They will not pay a penny to those  raya Ermenis…..  

     Reply

761. ragnar naess, You asked if Gayane my sister is hiding, I know that she is not and neither am I.

     You wrote to Boyajian that a number of Armenians play or rather exhibit themselves as victimhood.  I will ask you in her absence if I may that but you dismiss the fact thanks to your Turkish gov’t who has the Code 301 law against anyone who speaks for the AG is spaking against Turkishness and a Turkey who targets their own kind and or attempts to puts them in jail to a nobel price historian/intellectual such as Orham Pamuk as well as many other intellectuals if they dare to speak for the Armenian Genocide, what do you make of it?  As of late they are doing it also to the honorable Mr. Taner Akcam.  How do you feel about the fascist attitudes amongst your own Turkish gov’t as well as a good many of the Turkish people that react towards Armenians with hatred and attempts to killings?  After all, Armenians have waited patiently for Turkey to come around to their senses for almost 100 years and we are still waiting.  If you think that we are and feel victimized, then let me turn the tables around that may God forbid if Armenians did exactly the same things that the Mongolian and Seljuk tribes did it to us; wouldn’t you people feel for a good while traumatized and then feel victimized, especially if for almost 100 years the Armenians have denied it and then keep on dening it?  I said may God forbid, because, especially in the 21st century no one must resolve their differences by taking arms, unless if it’s absolutely necessary.  I would much rather see that any differences amongst nations would be resolved through communication and compromise.  Frankly you are not understandingly looking at our side of the coin with an open mind and an open heart.  To begin with your gov’t can start coming to their senses by first eliminating the Code 301 from their books, then we’ll know that they are beginning in good faith to come around to start honestly and justly communicating with Armenians and start to pay up renumerations for the great losses that the Turk’s ensued to Armenians.    
        

     Reply

762. Now, this is outrageous, ragnar naess,    “The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16.”
      
     First of all, as a jr historian, you should be careful with referring to the notion of “majority.” Don’t you expect that I or others can beat you on this, if we decide to present our list of historians—that’d constitute the majority—who say from 1 million to 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered in 1915-1923?
      
     Second, I demand that you clarify what you mean by “died”? You mean hundreds of thousands of people reached a ripe age by 1915 and died within a couple of consecutive years? Is “Armenians died” another idiotic phrase in the stock of your denialist glossary of terms, such as “crime”, “colossal crime”, etc. to describe the genocide of the Armenians? Also, since you accept—yet never called by its proper name—that there was a “colossal crime” committed against the Armenians, how in the context of this crime can you state that Armenians simply “died”?!  A second-grade pupil, not a jr historian, would understand that if there was a crime, then people who were targeted wouldn’t just die, but were subjected to murder en masse.
      
     Third, the genocide of Armenians did not last from 1915 to 1916. It lasted from 1915 to 1923. Check with the “majority” of your historians, if you will. Have you never noticed that exterminating the remaining pockets of Armenians in Asia Minor lasted up until 1923? One major proof for that is extermination of Armenians of Smyrna in 1922. How can an unbiased, not Turk-obsessed, person miss this continuity during the genocide of Armenians?
      
     Taken from your post addressed to Gayane: “I’d love to have your real name, and your CV. Or are you hiding?”  I’d like to have the Introduction for your upcoming book. But, for some reason, you never responded whether or not it was possible. Are you hiding?

     Reply

763. gor

     thank you for your list of historians. Regarding the introduction to my upcoming book, I guess you know pretty much of its content from our discussions. Regarding genocide of Turks in Bulgaria, take a look at how the courts  handle the question in cases like Bosnia, Rwanda. They do not go into “chronological” questions, they ask about intent to destroy a protected collectivity or group in whole and in part, about killing people or putting them in life endangering situation. This is called to apply a definition. Its what judges do. And about the name of the crime , we have been through this before. Let us not rehearse. The massacres of Bulgarians are well known, the massacres of Turks not. The strange thing is that genocide historians do not even discuss the mass murder of Turks, but discuss cases like the allied bombing of German cities during WW2. So  this is unjust. And your idea of making civilians belonging to a certain  ethnic group into belligerents is just preposterous from the point of view of human rights. Excuse me for saying so.

        

     Reply

764. Yes let’s talk about Bitlis, Murat Bey.
     You begin your recollection from ‘Sisters of grandpa’  in 1916.
     Let’s talk about 1915 first, since it happened – well, before 1916.
     A non-Armenian, a Venezuelan officer voluntarily serving in the Ottoman Army gives an eyewitness account of 15,000 Armenian civilians having been massacred by Turks in Bitlis.
      
      
     Do you or do you not unequivocally accept that Turks massacred 15,000 Armenians in Bitlis in the year 1915, before whatever happened in 1916  ?
     After you do, we can discuss what happened in Bitlis in 1916, after Turks massacred 15,000 Armenians in Bitlis in 1915.
     Did I mention that 1915 is chronologically before 1916 ? As in, whatever happened in 1916, happened after  1915.
      

     Reply

765. Gayane…technically, a dream is just that…an ephemeral moment in your subconscious, sometimes vivid and very real, but not. A wish is something very different, but we’re always amazed when they come true.  Now, I’m not about to deny that Armenians originated and lived on their own lands – call the area what you want – for probably much more than 3000 years…perhaps closer to 10,000. But, those facts aside…I still do not see how writing and talking about historic Armenia in a fantasy way is helpful at all. We have our azad Hayastan…love it, cherish it, take good care of it – NOW!  Do not waste this moment by dwelling on fantasy talk about history you cannot change. It’s one thing to have a dream or a wish, it’s quite another to be downright delusional. Amot eh…mekhk eh…al herike…inchoo khentutiun parer guh khosees? Chim haskenah. 

     Reply

766. VTiger, I understand your position, and cannot argue with anything you wrote above.  

     Reply

767. Murat– you again??? seriously you people must have nothing better to do than visit our pages and then spew venom here and there and then dissapear again.. is this how you debate????

     The sad story you shared with us truly makes me think..hmmmm.. is it possible that the entire world is that stupid and blind not to read and find such facts about turks and how they were brutally murdered by fedayi.. now it is very odd and funny to me that both you and robert the turk keep bringing up fedayi resistance and Dashnak resistance and use them as if Armenians were the perpetrators of the Genocide… you know 1.5 million innocent people murdered in cold blood and marched to their death…..the last I checked it was 1.5 million Armenians and not Turks who were murdered in cold blood by systematic fashion… hmmmmmmmm i wonder where your story fits in the realm of Turkey is guilty of Genocide and must repay for EVERYTHING…the world must be stupid enough because they realized ..oh wait…the Fedayi fought to protect and guard those left alive and not systematically wipe out a nation like the ottomans were out to do…i believe that is what you are saying right Murat????

     Gayane  

     Reply

768. Ragnar– your position will never be clear unless you share your introduction of your book like I and Gor requested few times now…

     Reply

769. Some people on these pages repeatedly asking you the great Armenian scholar. Why can’t you say See you in court? Obviously not the court in the Great Armenia or Great Turkey. In Hague.  Scared? 

     Many thanks 

     Reply

770. We all need to remember that today’s war, today’s struggle, is to keep Armenia, tiny as it is, alive and well. Fighting the past and trying to correct past wrongs are valid, only to a degree, but are mostly just distractions that inhibit us from being single minded and focused like a laser beam on the true prize, which is a healthy, sustainable azad Hayastan. Once we have achieved that, THEN it’s time to consider these other issues, because history will always be there, but then at that point, we will be able to argue from strength, not from weakness. Today, our argument is strong, yes, because it is based on truth and massive amounts of evidence, documentation, first hand observation, academic studies, etc., but we have little actual leverage by which to lift something up that is so large and so heavy and so cumbersome and then move it to where it belongs.  To push the genocide issue while people in Armenia are struggling to survive is really a stretch for me. Sorry. I’m all for remembering the dead with honor and grace, but feel that supporting the living is a much smarter investment in our homeland’s future.

       

      

     Reply

771. monastras

     you mentioned that you had some questions for me. I looked,but I cannot find them. On the other hand, I mentioned some two or three arguments for taking the allegations of genocidal intent in the ittihadists seriously. You might consider to answer them

     Boyajian

     I will come back to your questions. But I wonder why my position should be any mystery now. My bottom line is the Turkish moral and economic debt to Armenians. When asked about the great Ar,menian mortality, the massacres and the role of the government in 1915, most Turkish contributions talk about the Armenian guerilla, and the Armenians who collaborated with the Russians. This is no answer even if important for the historical context.  But there are many aspects of the positions of the genocide scholars and the Armenian  scholars I know that are either highly questionable or  simple unproductive if Armenians are to influence truth seeking Turks. I believe you know my position. You dont have to agree, and you dont agree but this is my position.

     Gayane

     The introduction is not written. Besides, I think that “Summing up and conclusions” will be more interesting if you want to understand where I stand.   But then I believe I have stated my views many times. I will not change them. But what I write about my experiences with dialogue with Armenians I will present to you with whom i have been debating for such a long time, and if you want I will include your responses so that you have a voice. IF YOU WANT, its an offer, this is how I worked as a researcher, but I believe you declined.

     Seervart

     I am not Turkish, I am Norwegian. If you do not want to hide give me your name, adress and CV as I have done. Same to you, Gayane

     gor

     I admire your stamina, but if my words so far neither has convinced you, nor made you really grasp my point, I dont know how to go on regarding the case of the Turks of Bulgaria in 1877-78     

                      

     Reply

772. boyajian

     I do not care merely about developing the discussion. I make definite points about what I agree with in the different postions, and what I disagree  with in both positions, if you perceive the filed as dominated by a “turkish” position and its opposite. I state what I believe happened, what I am not certain about, and what I dont believe happened. Is it the middle position – not being sure – that makes you perceive me as having an unclear position? But then I also care abpout the quality of the debate, and I believe this is important. Otherwise we waste our time just barking at each other.  

     Reply

773. ragnar naess,    “Regarding the introduction to my upcoming book, I guess you know pretty much of its content from our discussions.”   This is not a scholarly talk, mr jr historian. I asked if a written account might be made available to us, not the contemplations that I may or may not have in regard to it based on discussions on these pages. Based on your reply, I understand that you are hiding.
      
     “Regarding genocide of Turks in Bulgaria, take a look at how the courts handle the question in cases like Bosnia, Rwanda. They do not go into “chronological” questions, they ask about intent to destroy a protected collectivity or group in whole and in part, about killing people or putting them in life endangering situation.”    I never claimed to be an international lawyer in addition to being a historian, so maybe a Turk who goes by a genuinely Christian name ‘John’ should address you, not me, as “Great Turkish Scholar”?  Secondly, we never actually discussed nonsense such as “genocide of Turks in Bulgaria”. We discussed wartime atrocities in the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 in the context of which I demonstrated that Bulgarian Turks suffered atrocities for two major reasons: (1) because Turks in the first place mass murdered Bulgarian civilians a year before atrocities were committed against the Bulgarian Turks; and (2) wartime atrocities against a civilian segment of a belligerent party that are inevitable during any war waged in the history of mankind and deliberate extermination of an ethnic group as a race by their own government are two incomparable and irrelevant instances. No international legal body, or organization, or foreign parliament, or professional association, or a historian, or a genocide scholar ever denominated wartime atrocities against Bulgarian Turks as “genocide.” Even your beloved McCarthy referred to them—exaggeratingly—as “ethnic cleansing” in the context of war. Chronology of events in Bulgaria was brought by me not in the context of how the courts handle various cases, but as a demonstration that you overly concentrate on the killings of Turks while conveniently omitting the fact that Turks were the ones who initially mass murdered the Bulgarian civilians. Courts do consider whether or not there has been intent to destroy a group (there is no mentioning of protected group in ICTJ criteria, please stop disinformation) in whole and in part or putting them in life endangering situation. As such, there is no single court resolution that recognized wartime atrocities against Bulgarian Turks as genocide, because Russians and Bulgarians had no intent to destroy Turks as a group. Ethnically Turks represented the civilian component of the Ottomans — a party to the war against Russians and Bulgarians. Hence, they suffered atrocities. In 1876 Bulgarian villagers were not a civilian segment of any party to a war, nor were they a segment of Bulgarian freedom-fighting brigades. Yet, they were murdered by the Muslim/Turkish irregulars and Ottoman army regiments. What name do these atrocities merit according to you? And why you never mentioned them for the sake of historical and chronological objectivity? The answer offers itself: you are clearly on the Turkish side of the debate.
     

     “This is called to apply a definition. It’s what judges do.”   Yes, and so they do. But the fact remains that no court has applied the definition of “genocide” to the wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks. Only you do. It astonishes me how single-handedly you apply this definition to the wartime situation involving the Bulgarian Turks, yet how reluctantly you wiggle around with applying the same definition to the internationally recognized crime against the Armenians.
      
     “The massacres of Bulgarians are well known, the massacres of Turks not.”   Well, there may be a reason for that. Because any sober-minded—not bought and paid-for—scholar understands that it was the Turks who committed massacres of the Bulgarian civilians in the first place, and massacres of the Turks represent retaliation of the Bulgarians, as well as casualties suffered by the civilians in a wartime situation.
      
     “And your idea of making civilians belonging to a certain ethnic group into belligerents is just preposterous from the point of view of human rights.”    Do not twist my words so you won’t have to offer me another apology. I never expressed an idea of “making civilians belonging to a certain ethnic group into belligerents.” I said Bulgarian Turks ethnically represented a civilian element of a belligerent party and not that they belonged to a belligerent party. I brought this argument to demonstrate that civilians representing a party or parties to a war do, unfortunately, suffer atrocities and casualties during wars and that wartime atrocities against them have nothing in common whatsoever with the centrally-planned and executed deliberate destruction of an ethnic, national, and religious group as a race by their own government, not a wartime enemy.  Your incessant attempt at juxtaposing the two divergently different and unsupported by any court decision or scholarly account cases is preposterous.

     Reply

774. You post, we  respond:  then we post questions to you in response, as is the usual protocol. You ignore our questions, and post new ones – John oglu.
      
     No matter: we will counter your disinformation just the same, and will continue doing so as long as disseminators  of Denialist disinformation continue disseminating. 
     You, like many other Turks, keep bringing up ‘lawsuits’ on these pages.
     You write: ‘Why can’t you say See you in court?’
     Well, some Armenians tried and did say “see you Turks in court”:  Turks not only refused to show up in court, but were doing their best to hide.
     Let me repeat that: Turks were doing their best NOT to go to court and face their accusers.
      
      
     From the case {Alex Bakalian et. al vs. Republic of Turkey, the Central Bank of Turkey, and T.C. Ziraat Bankasi et. al, Case Number 2:10-CV-09596, December 15, 2010}
      
     Here is the interesting passage of what the court said:

     [The plaintiffs have spent recent months attempting to serve all the defendants, and then to have the court affirm their service efforts. In the August 2 order, the court denied Central Bank of Turkey and Ziraat Bank‘s motion to dismiss the complaint for insufficient service of process. The court acknowledged that the plaintiffs presented “credible evidence that their process servers made several attempts to serve the bank defendants at addresses in “New York City… [and] were repeatedly denied access to the buildings and [were even]…misdirected as to Ziraat Bank’s actual location.”] (emphasis mine)
      
      
      
     Now we don’t know  if this particular lawsuit will be ultimately successful for the plaintiffs or not: time will tell.
      
     However I have a question: if Turks have nothing to hide, why are they hiding ?
     Are you going to answer this last question, John oglu, or you are going to post more nonsense ?
     Maybe you should follow the example of your Turk buddies and….hide from the pages of AW. 

     Reply

775. ‘Seervart
     I am not Turkish, I am Norwegian. If you do not want to hide give me your name, adress and CV as I have done. Same to you, Gayane’
     This was not addressed to me, but I know my friends Seervart and Gayane will not mind if I respond.
      
     “Surely you are not serious, Doctor  Naess”
     “I am serious, and stop calling me Shirley”       (what movie is that from ?)
      
     I am a man. I grew up in a rough neighborhood in Yerevan. I live in California now. I have a lot of tools and the training to use them. The many men in my extended clan also have lots of tools and the training to use them.
     Even then, I wouldn’t give out my full name and address. Both Seervart and Gayne are ladies. There are a lot of crazy men in USA. It’s an enormous country. You can do something, and disappear. Need I say more ?
      
     If you, Mr. Naess, decides  to take off your clothes and sun yourself, does it mean everybody else is obligated to do so ?
      
     You posted your  CV on the web voluntarily: nobody – least of all Seervart or Gayane – asked you to. So you asking them to post private information online just because you have  – makes as much sense as me asking you to reveal  your daughter’s full name and where she  and her family live online.  Frankly, you are close to 70. Human life expectancy being what it is, you really expect women who are much younger than you to behave the same as you, a man  near 70  ? Probably living alone. How do you know the ladies don’t have minor children to worry about ? Maybe they do. Maybe they don’t. They are not obligated to tell you  anything. Who cares what you think: their safety and their family’s safety come first.

      
     And why would you want Seervart’s and Gayane’s  full name and address in the first place: for what purpose ?

     Reply

776. Re ‘You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbour’  (emphasis mine)
     The Quote is  from a post in this thread  by Ms. Monastras.
     ——————
     Condensed chronology of actual events in Artsakh aka NKR 1988-1994.
      
     1988 Peaceful mass demonstrations in NKR demanding re-unification with Armenia SSR
     1988 Parliament of Nagorno-Karabagh ASSR votes to separate from Azerbaijan SSR
             and join Armenia SSR, per USSR Constitution.
     1988 One million people in Yerevan demonstrate peacefully in support of their brothers
             and sisters in NKR.
     1988 In response, Azeri mobs organized by the Musavat Party massacre 100s of  
             unarmed, defenseless Armenians in Sumgait.
     1988 300,000 Armenians flee Azerbaijan. 168,000 Azeris flee Armenia.
     1989  Azerbaijan  imposes a blockade on RoA and NKR.
     1990  Anti-Armenian riots break out in Baku. 100s of Armenians are massacred.
              Soviet Paratroopers land in  Baku.
     1991 Launch of “Operation Koltso” by combined Soviet and Azeri OMON and
             regular troops. Armenian populated villages (24 total) are attacked and
             ethnically cleansed of their Armenian inhabitants.  Shahumian region is emptied
             of Armenians and annexed to Azerbaijan (to the new “Gheranboy” region).
     1991 Referendum on Independence held in NKR. Turnout is close to 90%.
             Close to 98% of voters approve the  Independence.
     1992 May: Armenians liberate Shushi.
     1992 May: Armenians open the Lachin corridor.
     1992 June-October: Azeri  Operation “Geranboy”.  With massive outside support,
                       Azeris throw everything they’ve got at the Armenians and succeed  in
                       occupying 48% of NKR. 10s of thousands of Armenian civilians flee to
                       Stepanakert and other unoccupied regions of NKR to avoid certain death
                       at the hands of Azeri invaders.
     1992 Fall:   Armenians, with heroic, superhuman effort  halt the massive Azeri
                      invasion by numerically superior enemy. Yerevan based Mi-24 Helicopter
                      gunships piloted by Russians attack and break-up massed columns of Azeri
                      armor.     Armenians begin counterattacks.
                      Having used up all their reserves in Operation “Geranboy”, Azeris are
                      unable to put any effective resistance and begin  disorganized retreat over                    the entire width of the front.
     1993     Artaskh’s Armenian self defense forces continue to capitalize on their
                 successes and continue liberating additional historic Armenian lands.
     1994 Winter:  As Armenians move closer and closer to  Baku, desperate Azeri
                         leadership starts  sending untrained teenagers to the front line  to
                         stem the tide of Armenian armor.
                         All in vain. Azeri Army is destroyed as an effective fighting force.
                         Armenian field commanders inform their  civilian superiors
                         that  the road to Baku is undefended to their tank columns –  if the order
                         is given to move.
     1994: Winter:    President Aliyev pleads with   Moscow to stop the Armenians from
                            advancing any farther.  Moscow  arranges a ceasefire.

     1994 May: Representatives of RoA, NKR, and  Azerbaijan sign ceasefire in Bishbek.
     ———————-
     EPILOGUE
     the above statement about  ‘unprovoked attack’,  coming from a poster who has  claimed that the  AG  was a fabrication by, quote, ‘defeated’ Armenians, is certainly  no surprise. Apparently in the Turkish mind,  extermination of unarmed Armenian civilians, and children, and babies – is no different than armed  troops being killed in battle and being defeated in war.

      
      
     On the other hand, when Armenians decide to fight back,  because Azeri-Tatar-Turks  attempt another extermination of indigenous Armenians living peacefully on their own ancestral  lands, it is an ‘unprovoked attack’,  and the Turks are angry. How dare those gyavurs  fight back. Weren’t they supposed to meekly march in long  columns to their deaths ? What happened ? What went wrong ?

     Who gave them permission to fight back ? Armenians better watch out. Turks are really angry now. They were not angry in 1895, not in 1909, not even in 1915. But now, they are extremely  angry – no telling what those Extremely Angry Turks might do. You Armenians better behave, or else.

     Reply

777. ragnar naess,      I likewise admire your perseverance in pushing forward a personal viewpoint unsupported by any historical account or court decision or international organization or foreign parliament resolution. If civilian casualties during every war waged by the mankind qualified for genocide, we would have gotten hundreds, if not thousands—not just several—cases of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention. You demean yourself by equalizing genocide with wartime atrocities as a result of which, tragically, not only combatants, but a multitude of civilians are, as a rule, killed. If one were to follow your ill-conceived viewpoint, then casualties occurred during the World War II (taken as one example)—especially amongst the Russian/Soviet peoples—must have qualified for genocide.
      
     You’re unsure how to go on re: genocide vs. wartime atrocities dichotomy? Fine. Are you sure how to go on re: another absurd statement of yours: “The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16”? I’m still waiting for your explanations as to how could several hundred thousand people, based on your estimates, but in fact around 1.5 million people, just die in the course of a couple of years. Are you capable to go on and support this pearl of your judgment with any conceivable argument? If not, then I believe you’d owe us another apology and this time it wouldn’t be a half-apology, but a full one.

     Reply

778. I am not sure why my post to Ragnar in regards to my name did not post but I am going to try again…

     Ragnar — you addressed me in your Sept 17th post that I am hiding… hmmmm.. that was rather odd…….you ATTEMPTED to pull something smart by adding -ian after Gayane which was not  funny nor appreciated because  not only it did not make sense (-ian after a name????) but YOU having no knowledge about  Armenians and Armenian history had NO RIGHT to such post… … have you seen me change my name nor my avatar as long as you have barked at me on these pages  UNLIKE some denalists who use and create several/different names on our pages??/ HAVE YOU????? if the answer is NO which I know it is, then you just created YET ANOTHER episode how much you despise those who expose you of a lie and desire of creating choas and confusion… So you better watch it sir before you open your ignorant mouth and disrespect my name in such stupid manner…

     Reply

779. Gaytzag jan– to be honest with me.. i am more confused than before after reading your last post… all i tried to say was i did not know why you had to send a post trying to clarify which one is you because like i said… the poster said nothing absurd, rude or anti-Armenian… that was it… and like Avery stated, people know who is who by their avatar and writing style… i was just not clear the reason of your post.. that is it…

     Reply

780. Ragnar you wrote this directly to me:

     The introduction is not written. Besides, I think that ”Summing up and conclusions” will be more interesting if you want to understand where I stand.  

     my comment: NO. i don’t want to read about the summing up and conclusions.. we requested for you to share specifics.. stop going around the subject like you have done about Genocide for the last few years… as I see it, you have not even started your book have you???    

       But then I believe I have stated my views many times. I will not change them.

     my comment: no you have not.. to this day i have NO CLUE why you do what you do, why you act the way you act, why persist, why you debate, why you share except I know how you are as a person…from what you have exposed to us so far.. and it ain’t pretty.. to me sir.. YOU will remain and this will never change by the way as another type of denialists and Turcophile …
     
      But what I write about my experiences with dialogue with Armenians I will present to you with whom i have been debating for such a long time, and if you want I will include your responses so that you have a voice. IF YOU WANT, its an offer, this is how I worked as a researcher, but I believe you declined.

     I told you this before ragnar in the past: YOU CAN NOT use any of my comments here or out in your book because one I don’t want my voice to be included in your book of denial and full of inaccuracy (I am sure) but I also do not see you as someone who is experienced enough to write such a book…   and on another note.. so you are planning to write a pro-Turkish Anti-Armenian book solely based on the dialogues on AW????? wow.. i wonder how much the Turkish govt is planning to pay you for your book.. especially when your data is pulled from every day public forums… and not from actual international archives, face to face meetings, eyewitness accounts and research in different govt offices, ect….

     Gayane

     Reply

781. Gor jan– EXCELLENT… absolutely brilliant…

     Avery jan– this goes to you to..:) 

     By the way Avery jan.. I am sure you have read how Ragnar tried to yet again misrepresent you (as he did to me in the past) by stating you are dangerous to the Armenian cause .. I responded to Ragnar but somehow it did not post..but this is close to what I wrote…

     : TO ALL DENIALISTS AND TURCOPHILES…. if I were to put all of you together and then some, you as a whole will not even have 1% of the intelligence, knowledge, tact, and brains as Avery’s one strand of hair.. you denialists and Turcophiles can try to muddy up those of us who speak up and expose your lies and manipulations on these pages but facts remain facts.. you WILL NOT SUCCEED.. so i say give up your evil agenda …….       

     Reply

782. Avery jan– you are absolutely brilliant.. I LOVE the post to Murat and John…:)

      

     Reply

783. Avery,

     We are not hiding! Your editorial board is at it yet again! Censorship and deletions of our posts so that we can’t even defend ourselves against countless attacks from all of you! Then you have the audacity to say that we are “hiding”! Shame on you Sir!!

     John,

     You want the Hague court, the so be it! Let’s make sure that ANCA and ATAA make the arrangement for an open public forum debate with full media coverage first. THEN we’ll make arrangements for filing in civil court. Agreed? Please do not pull a GAYANE on us either (She has already developed a rather negative reputation)!     

     Reply

784. Dear Avery my brother, Thank you so much for answering Naess on my behalf in absentia as I do not necessarily come to this site very often.  You are brilliant as well as someone with a great heart and great logic.  For the ears of Naess and his sort, Armenians in general are smart people, but from Armenia are usually extremely smart sorts, thank goodness for our nationality as I am so proud!!!  Thank you again dear friend for coming to my rescue as well as to my sister Gayane’s.

     Reply

785. Gor jan,  Just based even on your last post to ragnar naess, your answer is so fitting that I am overjoyed with your superbly excellent answers to him as well as to others.  You’re a gem and thank you! 

     Reply

786. Karekin, I am terribly surprised at you for saying to Gayane, “Amot eh… mekhk eh… al herike… inchoo khentutiun parer guh khosees?  Chem haskenar”. Karekin, We have every right to speak our mind, the turks are speaking their minds on our newspaper pages and yet why shouldn’t we when in fact we are totally in the right and their their gov’t. isn’t.  May I remind you that it’s not an illusional dream to ask for turkey to come to her senses and after almost 100 years to recognize of their CUP’s gov’ts murderous acts towards our people and ask for renumeration for our almost 2 Million martyrs’ blood money.  And even if we dream about our long lost historical lands to have them back one day, it is very normal and a healthy process for humans and nations to have and look at the bright future and in hope for getting their rights.  For without hope where are we?  The hope is the essence of the human existence and of the psycholigical health.  If you are in doubt, ask psychologists and doctors.
     

     Reply

787. Hello Boyajian, Unfortunately I didn’t read your post above that was written back five days ago.  I am well aware that you are a good and a just fighter and I know where your heart is, that is with us and our just cause and I am thankful for that.  But I want to remind you that Turks just about a year and a half ago they signed the defeitist protocols with Armenia and soon after, they didn’t legalzsed it in their Parliaments and hence they refused to open their illegally closed boarders with Armenia; because it was the Armenian Parliamentary law that indeed we had Western Armenia and Armenians had the right to pursue the Armenian Genocide to be accepted by Turkey.  I hear that Turkey is hopefully and finally after 96 years will be returning our buildings that belonged to Armenians; but going as far as thanking them for something that we didn’t receive it yet and when we know that their heart is not for Armenia nor for Armenians, when they constanlty speak from both ends of their mouths, and knowing well that they will be doing this gesture solely to be accepted in the European Union; I think thanking them for it is not the right thing to do when we had precedence with them.  I see from past historical experiences from other nations that after the enemy apologized and they were being royally paid in full, they never thanked their murderers.  Turkey is a very complex state and Armenians must be very careful in dealing with Turkey at all times.  That is where I am coming from.    

     Reply

788. Karekin, In answer to your post addressed to me from five days ago, I have pretty much given my reasons to my post above to Boyajian, as to why I am reluctant to thank Turkey now and at this time.  Also I agree with Gayane’s very good answers back on her Sept. 14 post. 

     Reply

789. I agree with you Seervart jan… :) I absolutely trust and always open to have Avery or any of my friends on these pages to speak on my behalf.. and hopefully vice versa…

     Thank you Avery jan… you definintely shot Ragnar as well as Monastras up….

     Gor jan– your last post to Ragnar…      

     Reply

790. Robert– did you read my posts to you??? obviously you did not..because i had a question for you, a confirmation, a clarification and a request…but it is obvious as a true denialist you ignor them and continue your lies on our pages…… please read my last posts to you and you will have your facts.. 

     how dare you to tell me I have created a negative reputation when in reality it was your ill-conceived doing..  you simply refuse to acknowledge that what you tried to pull on me did not work and you are upset …  don’t hate.. appreciate the fact that we are willing to speak with you even after the stunt you pulled on me by calling me a liar and a denialists.. you did not win Robert the Turk and AGAIN stop harassing me because you feel defeated……….

     by the way.. IF you read my last few posts.. you can CLEARLY see that AW does not discriminate..some of my own posts did not go through either.. so you crying “FOUL” is a typical TUrkish way ….a person who is smart would ask: if AW was censoring my denialists posts, then why would posts by an Armenian also not get published?? have you ever thought of that?? i bet not…

      ..if you have not noticed thus far Robert… i am not a denialist like you, Murat, Monastras, John, Kurt and few others including Ragnar. I am here to point out how manipulative some of you are…..also how lucky you are that your foul comments get posted on our pages more often than your filthy TUrkish sites where 98% of our posts get vanished… so please stop your whining and grow up.. man up and stop spreading lies about people who stand up for justice,  and truth…

     Gayane

     Reply

791. thanks Seervart.
     thanks Gayane.

     all is well. 

     Reply

792. Gayane, Seervart and Avery, please don’t take the bait.  You have no need to answer such nonsense.  Just keep your eyes on the truth.

     Reply

793. Seervart jan– mersi quyrs vor your post… unfortunately, Karekin is one individual who is as confusing as Ragnar.. truly is.. and sometimes I wonder whether or not he is an Armenian or not.. I understand his desires and motives.. truly do but when he speaks of Genocide and how unimportant history is to him, I just get dumbfounded.. especially his last post to me… i was kind of taken back by his audocity to tell me amote.. heriqe., xentutyunners knes.. . this and that.. seriously I can’t get through this man… i can’t understand him…

     Reply

794. Seervart, thanks for your comments to me.  I understand your point.  I think I was unclear. I am really talking about gratefulness for any restitution, but not necessarily a thank you to Turkey, because as others have said, this gesture is really not a gift given out of remorsefulness or sense of responsiblity for any crime.  I explained my reasons above.  Just my opinion.

     Reply

795. Seevart, Boyacian

     And even if we dream about our long lost historical lands to have them back one day, it is very normal and a healthy process for humans and nations to have and look at the bright future and in hope for getting their rights.  For without hope where are we?

     Boyajian had a similar statement. It is okay to dream about something which is achievable but if not what do you do? Moreover, If your dream ends in tear, Who is going to be responsible Turks?

     Why do you expect the Turks to support your cause then offer the Sevres Treaty in return? Do you think that they are that idiot? 

     Turkey can not escape the Armenians by closing the border as the planes land empty in Armenia but take off full of Armenians for Istanbul, Izmir, Antalya.Even when Erdogan threaten Armenia to deport the thousand of illegal  Armenian immigrants, Guess what happened after his statement? Some thousand of Armenian pupils of illegal immigrants had been accepted to the Armenian and the state schools even though, Georgian, Moldavian, Africans,Arab, Pakistani pupils are still lacking of schools.
     I am sorry I missed the recent party but I will try my best in the future

     Reply

796. Monastras,just to remind you that the thread & title/subject of this article is:
     Searching for Lost Armenian Churches and Schools in Turkey
     Your remarks are so childish,racist & full of hatred.Turkey is haunted with the spirits of my unburied massacred ancestors & just to refresh your memory again – massacred by your forefathers – & it can never escape the Armenians.Illegal Armenian children were accepted to mainly ARMENIAN SCHOOLS which is the part subject of this article.
     Stick to the main subject in your future comments so that a healthy communication occurs.

     Reply

797. Personally, I would like to see diasporan Armenians focus all of their time, energies and monies on Armenia and Karabagh, where people are having a very difficult time surviving. Armenians in Turkey probably live quite well, in comparison, and they have a much more sympathetic government than anytime in the recent past. Wasting time attempting to damage Turkey is just that…a waste of time, plus, it does not benefit Armenia at all.  Perhaps we can agree that 20th C. history has been difficult, painful and hard to ignore, but that it must take a back seat while today’s Armenia steadies itself in rough waters. There is nothing to be gained from belligerence by any party at this time, but a lot of potential benefit that can be realized from cooperation, peace and friendship on all sides. We have to be practical. All nation states do business with other countries that often do not necessarily share the same values, politics or economic system. So, despite what may be serious differences, these are overcome in order to create win-win situations for their respective peoples. For some ideologues on both sides, it may seem to be an outlandish suggestion, but if Armenia is going to survive and thrive, it needs to have good working relationships with all its neighbors. There is no other way, because the status quo is not leading to the right outcomes. 
      
      

     Reply

798. Monastras, please be assured that now that the door has been opened, Armenians, Greeks, Jews and Assyrians will be making their rightful claims for the return of illegally confiscated property.  Let truth and good laws prevail.  Or do you prefer to live in a country where fairness is absent and corrupt government and police call the shots?

     Further, you are a defender of your country and no one can fault you for that.  Yet sometimes a true patriot must acknowledge wrongs that were done and be willing to speak of it, for the long term good of the country.  I, for one, don’t wish that bad things happen to you or your country.  I just want justice for mine.  All people deserve self-determination and security… Kurds…Armenians… Turks… Palestinians …Syrians… Israelis, etc.,  Stop promoting hate and racism with your comments.

      

     Reply

799. Karekin,our focus is on both Armenia & our sacred cause.You cannot expect the raped victim to marry the rapist can you?It is the rapist’s duty to accept his crime & get his punishment.All cultures & societies(even the Turkish)in this world function on this principle.

     Reply

800. Dear Gayane, I only speak the truth in any subject matter and for anyone in particular that has any merit to speak of my dear!

     Dear VTiger, Your justifiable points are very well taken and to the very point to Monastras.  She is off the subject, isn’t she, other than wining, I mean.

     Dear Boyajian, Vochinch friend.  Very well said to Monastras, as we wish our self determination and security as well as for the Kurds, the Assyrians, the Greeks, the Israelis, the Syrians, the Palestinians and so forth…. Thanks for very your well thought out point!  Because each and every nation on earth deserves the right to have her just place under the sun!!!!!  What you said and I most certainly areed with you on a differenet post, VIVE LA DIFFERENCE!!!!!

     Reply

801. Karekin,      I’m not trying to psychoanalyze you, but it looks like you’re showing dual personality disorder symptoms. They result in schisms that one can’t but notice in your posts. You at times lose focus on central idea and post absurd comments. How can Diasporan Armenians focus all of their time, energies and monies on Armenia and Artsakh while being the descendants of victims of Turkish barbarism? What are you made of? Steel? How is it possible to focus completely on something while having an open sore? As for the phrase “wasting time attempting to damage Turkey” it is just preposterous. Is there any more damage that the one Turkey had done to Armenians? If a retaliatory quest for justice is damage, then physical extermination of a whole nation is what??

     Reply

802. ragnar naess,    are you contemplating responses to many enquiries that were left unanswered by you here, or you felt the need to put on hiatus and consult your bed-side book Death and Exile by Turkish sell-out McCarthy?

     Reply

803. Re: ‘Some thousand of Armenian pupils of illegal immigrants had been accepted to the Armenian and the state schools even though, Georgian, Moldavian, Africans,Arab, Pakistani pupils are still lacking of schools.’
      
     There is no record of  children of undocumented Armenian immigrants being accepted to Turkish State schools.
     All information pertaining to Armenian children attending schools in Turkey indicates that they will be attending Armenian private schools.
      
      
     Some excerpts from TodaysZaman (Sept 2, 2011) to put the alleged magnanimous  act of Turks in perspective:
      
     [News reports on Friday said Education Minister Ömer Dinçer had given his permission to allow Armenian children residing in Turkey as irregular immigrants to unofficially attend classes in Armenian schools in the next school year.]
      
     [“The ministry has given the necessary permission and we are very happy about this,” Deputy Patriarch Ateşyan stated.]
      
     [He said the Armenian community has been fighting to allow irregular immigrants to attend Armenian schools for two years. According to Ateşyan, about 1,000 children from Armenia are living in Turkey with their parents, who have come here for work but have no papers. ]   (emphasis mine)
      
     After having exterminated 2 million Armenians (1895-1923), after having forcibly expelled the survivors from their ancestral homeland of about 5,000 years, after having confiscated and stolen US$ 10s of billions in liquid and illiquid Armenian assets, not counting the value of stolen land, Turks magnanimously allow 1,000 Armenian children to attend Armenian private schools.
      
     The grandiose  magnanimity of Turks takes your breath away, doesn’t it ? what are you ingrate Armenians still complaining about ?
      
     {NOTE: Since mid 1950s, modern Germany has paid about  US$ 70 billion}
     {          in reparations to Jews for the Nazi crime of the Holocaust.            }
     {          This does not include any aid and support Germany provides to   }
     {          the State of Israel.                                                                 }. 

     Reply

804. after a very short period of alignment, planets went out of alignment again – waaaaay out.
      

     Reply

805. Ragnar, you have been more than fair in answering my many questions and I thank you for allowing me to draw this out of you.  I have not been ignoring your recent posts to me.  I simply found myself at a loss for words and the need to step off the merry-go-round.  You have made your position and preconceptions very clear.  I am not an historian and there certainly are others better equipped to answer and argue with you.  I especially enjoy reading your exchanges with Gor and learn a lot from them.

     I am not going to respond point for point.  We have exchanged comments for over a year now and I feel I have very little new to add.   If you do complete a book, I can only hope that your time spent here with Armenians will help you to understand the need for justice, and that this awareness will shape your book.  
      

     Reply

806. Ragnar,  I forgot to add a comment above regarding your criticism of Avery which I think was out of line.  You don’t have to agree with him or like what he has to say, but you certainly can’t discredit him as someone who does damage to the Armenian dialogue with Turks.  Its only your opinion, but I completely disagree.  Avery is admired and respected by many here as a strong advocate of the Armenian Cause.  You seem to have bought into the Turkish mindset that it is ‘rude‘ to call murder, murder; and to demand restitution from the guilty.   You worry too much about the sensitivities of Turks, while ignoring the unhealed and oozing wound of the Armenians.  This seems unbalanced to me.

     Two more strong retorts from Gor and Avery!

     Reply

807. Karekin– you got off the horse carriage YET AGAIN and not just simply got off but you were thrown off… and like Avery my dear friend said.. the starts got out of their alignment after a short period of time.. WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY OFF.. and he is right on the dot….

     Reply

808. VTiger– love love love your reply to Monastras..:) guess that is how denialists Turks operate they bring in other matters, data, topics to confuse the conversation because that is the only way they can get out of the end zone that they put themselves in.. they have no where to run anymore and need an escapte route and by throwing different non related data is the most sensible way for them.. typical.. but thanks for redirecting Monastrast who TO THIS DAY has not answered to Avery who repeatedly asked her to admit or deny her most Anti-Armenian and disrespectful comment she posted on her own Turkish site… shame on you Monastras..

     Reply

809. Avery very well said.These Armenian children attending Armenian schools which are run by private Armenian funds & is not costing a single penny to the Turkish state.Turkish minister just gives permission for them to attend,which they were barred from until now.What a great cultured deed.What a cultured society & government!Lady Monastras sees this as a big deal.How could they even think of barring children from attending schools?
     I am perplexed at their logic & above all their racism against the Armenians.But not surprised knowing them.
     However when we compare the Armenian Genocide with Holocaust,ours is much worse,as not only we were massacred,on top we lost our homeland while the Jews gained one.

     Reply

810. Gor– you got it my friend.. Karekin is just that….your post was right on the dot… your reply to Ragnar was absolutely hillarious…  but soooooooooooooo true… another bull’s eye 

     Avery jan– no wods to describe my enjoyment when I read your post to Monastras.. such strong facts… thank you…    lets see how Monastras Khanum is going to slither herself out of this one…

     Reply

811. thanks for the support Boyajian.
      
     I can absolutely assure you that when I get criticized by  Turks and their Turcophile agents, I take it as a complement. Music to my ears.  I have done my job well.
      
      
     The only people whose opinion matters to me are my compatriots here.
      
     I have been called a lot worse on these pages and elsewhere by Turks and their Turcophile agents, than ‘being let loose’ .  
     The last person whose opinion would have any affect on my posting behaviour  or the intensity of  my comments would be a Denialist Turk or one of their Denialist agents.

     Reply

812. He-Rafi must  have gone  through a lot  of hard work,research to line up all those up above.Kudos  for a job  well done. My father attended  one  of the secondary schools in Erzeroum,named  SANASARIAN, photo of  which appeasrs  in prof. Richaard g. Hovhanissian’s  book by that title and I purchased  it from him with his  sig.on it when he was delivering a discourse  here in FL.
     My father graduated from that Sanasarian with gold medal ,learning besides subjects   and language in armenian, also French and Turkish. He was  fluent ion all and wrote in all. Later  he always remembered with  with nostalgia  his schoolsdays  there.At 17 he left for Istanbulla  to earn  bread  money  ,sending home for 5 siblings and parents.
     He always  told us about life  in Erzeroum,difficulties  his parents faced and harassment  stories .Later, when we were in our  higher teens , re  his father and eldest brother having been put  on DEATH  MARCH, where  they pperished. He and the rest  being away escaped  it. Grandma  was carried  on one uncle’s back across border to Armenia/Georgia…..etc.,etc., etc. 

     Reply

813. Avery jan I concur.. those denialists or Turcophiles who bring negative attention on to those of us and got critized more than some on these public forums means we did our job right…

     Reply

814. Abris bravo dear Gor for your just comments here to Karekin: “Is there any more damage that the one Turkey had done to Armenians?  If a retaliatory quest for justice is damage, then physical extermination of a whole nation is what??”

     How true!!! How true!!! and How true!!!  You put it well Gor jan, BRAVO and I loved the way you put it, thank you!!!!! 

     Reply

815. Avery jan, A job well done!!!!! Because you go to Today’s Zamaan and become aware of what’s going on, thanks to you now we know that the Armenian Children in Turkey have been denied to go to their own schools for 2 years, which is sponsored by Armenians mind you.  Thank you for letting us know what is really going on, my friend.  A good slap to Monastras (who brought this whole thing up herself) who keeps raving about their Turkish ways that are time and time again failures to come out clean for the Armenians in Turkey.

     Reply

816. Gor – I don’t get it…why do you keep referring to this ‘open sore’?  If that’s really the case, then you’re the one needing a shrink.  Plus, if anyone should have or would have had a long term problem, it would have been my grandparents…not me, or you. They lost everyone and everything. What have you lost? 

     From what I can see, you are perpetuating an open sore by not treating it, but instead, you keep picking at it…so, it will never, ever heal. In fact, it seems like you want to promote an infection, instead of a cure.  You seem to revel in the pain. There’s something very wrong with that. Do you spent your every minute reminding yourself of what Turks did to Armenians?  You do this as Armenians are murdered on the streets of Moscow almost every week or as Armenians in Hayastan live in shacks, without heat or running water?   

     The point is that your perpetual focus on what you see as an endlessly evil Turkey is neither helping Armenia, nor Armenians anywhere else. I fail to see how your rants are helping anyone. It becomes a broken record. We really need a new tune. There is a limit to the endless repetition of history, ad nauseum. Yes – even Armenians can become oversaturated with the constant drumbeat you play here. Raffi’s article is clear enough. What more do you need?    

     Reply

817. KAREKIN– because IT IS AN OPEN SORE …

     Reply

818. I acknowledge and recognize  TodaysZaman for their generally  accurate reporting of facts.

     Even when it may not hew the Turkish Nationalist line.
     I am aware of TZ’s  roots and founders.
     Nevertheless,  facts are facts.

     The Truth Shall Set You Free.

     Reply

819. Karekin, In the absence of Gor I wish to answer a couple of things that you said to Gor and I  know that – I believe I can say he – will answer to you and I believe he wouldn’t mind.

     In the first place Karekin, you cannot say to any Armenian what have he or she lost; because any sensitive patriotic Armenian such as Gor, myself, Avery, Gayane, Boyajian and VTiger and others as well, feel the horrendousness of the Armenian Genocide that have occurred.  That’s what you do not seem to get it and that’s your problem; certainly not Gor’s nor mine.  We have lost so much as a nation that sometimes even thinking about it my head would spin in desp

     Reply

820. Karekin, In continuation to the above post of mine, sometimes and it’s not just me; but out of 9-10 million Armenians I believe and I would think that at least 90% of them do feel the way we feel, and that is the enormity of the loss of our cream of the crop of people and plus our lost homeland it would make any patriotic and intelligently sensitive Armenian to feel extremely sad about it.  Yo-u don’t seem to get it, but my father used to say that our 1.5-2 Million martyrs were very good God fearing Christians, ingenius good natured people and on top of that our lands that we lost and because of it today we are scattered all around the entire world “taparagan Hayer”

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821. In continuation:  If in 300 years we Armenians who are scattered all around the world, if we don’t go back to our anscestral homeland, we shall become extinct, a lost civilization such as the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Carpatians, etc. etc.  If don’t grasp the enormousness  and the horrible loss of the situation WE DO. That’s the difference between you and us.

     Karekin, the only reason that Gor or myself have to set the records straight and keep repeating because of denialist Turks that keep lurking in here and because people like yourself that claim that you are hbut your mindset is franky Turkofiland you don’t have the patriotic Armenian nerve in you,

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822. boyajian

     I am happy if you see my position clearer now. Regarding Avery, I thought my post was not permitted by  the moderator, because I did not see it. I do no know Avery personally, but I feel he is part of a certain role some people have in most social movements, the role of trying to uphold the cohesion in the movement by more and more uncontrolled, exaggerated and uncritical attacks on opponents, real and imaginary. I believe such a function is a sign of deep problems within the movement. On the other hand, those who continue to discuss in a factoriented and polite way with opponents represent the strenght of the movement. I belong to a political party in Norway which in the last municipal elections lost many votes, and I believe the reason was that some of us falsely felt they were in a kind of position that did not make it necessary to discuss in earnest with opponents, or – even more seriously – with people who have some interest in the issues and want both to be informed and to argue if they hear something they do not immediately agree with. If people are met with arguments of the type “all people who are knowledgeable agree that…” or “only those paid by X will say that….” the movement over time gets into trouble. – Yes, the discussions I have had on the pages of AW has greatly deepened my underatanding both of certain facts and about how English speaking Armenians relate to their traumatic past. To agree is – needless to say – another matter. But of course what still bothers me is that so many of you choose to be anonymous.

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823. In psychiatry, it is often said that a ‘cure’ is only possible if the patient really wants to be cured. I fully acknowledge that Armenians have been damaged by the traumas of 1915 (but let’s be honest, not every single Armenian on the planet is still ‘truamatized’). I know all the related history very, very well. At this point in history, I would submit that the best revenge is going to be a secure, thriving, healthy and successful Armenia.  Yes, there is an azad Hayastan on todya’s map, but does it meet all these criteria?  Not even close.  Why jeopardize Armenia by wasting precious time on Turkey?  If you really don’t care much for Turkey, just walk away from it and forget about it – completely. That’s what my grandparents did…they gave up on it as a hopeless case that made its anti-Armenian point very, very clear a long time ago with mass murder. So, why this obsession?  You can’t get blood from a stone, is what they would say.  That truism is still true.  Today, the overriding aim should be to protect and nurture Armenia and Karabagh. Armenia is having a tough time doing that…everyone should lend a hand there, because as far as I know, no one on these pages is planning to move, lock, stock and barrel to any formerly Armenian town or village in Turkey.

       

       

       
      

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824. Karekin,     I’m afraid with this weird, horrifyingly disengaged mentality: “if anyone should have or would have had a long term problem, it would have been my grandparents…not me, or you. They lost everyone and everything. What have you lost?”, you will never get it. You’re just one desensitized, apathetic species. Quite possibly, one of the kind among most modern-day Armenians who’re still deeply traumatized having lost their relatives, their ancestral lands, their culture, their properties to genocidal Turkish government and their nation, not occasionally xenophile Russian hooligans. And on top of that, never given an apology for the heinous crime. Doesn’t having an awkward mentality trouble you? If your daughter is raped in front of you, as was the widespread practice of the “civilized” Turks, would you tell: “well, it happened to her, not me”? Have you seen your physiatrist lately?

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825. “those who continue to discuss in a fact-oriented and polite way with opponents represent the strength of the movement.”    I believe I discussed in a fact-oriented and polite way with you, ragnar naess,   despite occasional impoliteness, such as ignoring to respond to posts during the discussion, or even explicit affronts towards a nation, such as “inbred” or “disposed of”.  And what appears to be the impact on you of my fact-oriented and polite discussion? You now call the Turkish crime by its proper name ‘genocide’ or you now admit that a million and a half people could not simultaneously agree to die in a year or two, but were, rather, deliberately and methodically mass murdered? Or maybe our fact-oriented and polite discussion convinced you that there is no real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians among the majority of scholars, historians, international lawyers, Nobel Prize laureates, as well as among foreign governments, professional associations, international organizations, provincial legislatures, advocacy groups, etc.? Or maybe you now stopped justifying Ottoman Turks’ genocidal extermination of Armenians as a ‘manifestation of paranoia’ and ‘overreaction that leads to murder’? Or our fact-oriented and polite discussion persuaded you that it is idiotic to equalize a centrally-planned, deliberate annihilation of a race with wartime atrocities against civilians ethnically representing a warring party? I did discuss these and many other issues in earnest with you, hard to object. What impact these honest discussions had on you? Are you now reading witness accounts, survivor stories, and Turkish Court Martial verdicts on mass extermination of Armenians in 1915-1923 at your bed side or you still keep Death and Exile as your bed-time book?

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826. Karekin,it’s not a shame to be in need of a shrink.I for one know that I have issues but at the same time know that no shrink will be able to help me.Yes my grandparents lost everything & what I lost is massacred aunts,uncles,unborn cousins,generations & above all lost my homeland.Their pain has passed to me.Do you think that I am a happy person with so much pain?Don’t you think that I envy others without any pain except for their daily issues?
     What is your treatment & cure for this disease?Let me know if you have one.
     Yes I see evil Turkey because it still denies the Genocide & I cannot let it die until my massacred ancestors get justice.I will rant,I am the broken record & I will continue on & have passed it to my children & will pass it to my grandchildren.
     Whoever is saturated & does not care about justice to their massacred ancestors can take a different route.Good luck to them & nobody can stop them & let us see if they will achieve anything.They will be eaten raw!
     I have a just cause & this is my legal weapon & I will use it until I get a just justice.Why should a criminal go free without getting his punishment?

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827. gor

     no, you and I have discussed a lot, and I feel that the tone has been oriented towards facts and has been polite. I repeat I am sorry for using expressions like “disposed of”, because I realize that it is hurtful. Please again accept my apologies. I was not aware of the full implications of an expression like this. However, the expression “inbred” is about a circle of discussants that support each others in ways that hinded the development of a discussion. It may be polemical, but we are all polemical at times. However, I feel I have had difficulties reaching through to you with my views. About calling things with its proper name, we have different ideas about the relationship between names and what the name refers to. For me a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define. I sometimes say “the deportations and massacres of Armenians”, sometimes “the relocation and massacres of Armenians”, sometimes “the Armenian genocide”. – And whether there is an agreement among the majority of researchers or not is not so interesting for me if I see serious flaws in the reasoning of this majority. And as I have said I completelty disagree with your analysis of the fate of the Bulgarian Turks. I believe your thinking is not in line with human rights at all. But then let us agree to disagree. Maybe we can take up this thread sometimes again.  

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828. Ragnar-.. is it hard to swallow the fact that Avery tells it as it is?  Are you intimidated by the fact that your knowledge is simply a child’s toy against Avery’s and Gor’s knowledge?  Is this your way of justifying your lack of it???  Because frankly my dear, I DON”T GIVE A DAMN what you think how some of us present ourselves on these pages.. because our actions is a reaction to people like you who is hiding BEHIND the fake polite and make belief civilized way of communicating    BS but knows nothing about it as we have seen in many of your posts..ESPECIALLY when you refer to us as “inbreds” and our ancestors as garbage who have been “disposed”…you are someone who tries so hard to achieve what you are here to achieve..and that is: to stir up choas.. to create confusion.. to spread inaccurate and fabricated information and to muddy up our names by false accusations… you, who is hiding behind JR. historian BS but yet knowing NOTHING about true history.. you who shows no traces of neutrality or equality…  so instead of putting down my friend Avery who one strand of hair is more precious and priceless than the whole of you, you SIR watch what you yourself represent and maybe then you would understand that what you spew on these pages are just that.. FILTH…

     and you trying to pull a Robert on us is not even funny.. you keep saying the same thing over and over when we already explained to you in details, especially Avery that NO ONE on any public pages including yourself will reveal THEIR personal life/information…I believe it was Gor or Avery who asked you WHY do you need our information??? I just don’t get it..  Maybe I should ask this question.. What do you mean by hiding?? What is your interpretation of hiding (in your messed up head)…   

     Thank you and have a nice day… (I hope this was polite enough..)

     Gayane  

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829. VTiger jan– great reply.. It seems to me that Karekin suffered nothing.. he is one of them people who would say “you broke my arm and a leg..you killed my parents and grandparents.. but it is ok.. i deserved it and i will forgive you and forget about it…”  yeah it make sense.. he is sick in his head…..

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830. Let he without sin cast the first stone. There are living criminals running free everywhere in the world, in the US, in Turkey and yes, also in Armenia!  To level the ‘criminal’ charge against living human beings whom you have never met in person, nor ever will, is not my idea of humanity. Let’s say your neighbor’s kid goes crazy and kills someone…it’s not an accident, because he became crazy. Do you then accuse the kid’s brothers, sisters, parents, cousins, grandparents, or future children with being criminals, too?  This is not a justification of anything or an attempt at negating the need for an apology or reparations or anything else, but at some point, the perpetuation of such intense anger – to the point where you want to pass it on to your kids – becomes a counterproductive quicksand for all involved. 

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831. there is no real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians among the majority of scholars, historians, international lawyers, Nobel Prize laureates, as well as among foreign governments, professional associations, international organizations, provincial legislatures, advocacy groups, etc.? 
     Dear Great Armenian Scholar

     You have been caught red handed.You can not escape from the question. Why you the Great Armenians have failed to submit a petition to the International Court of Justice?  Do not move you have been framed.
      

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832. Karekin,you are way off mark.Nobody is discussing or accusing individual Turks.
     We are talking,blaming the Turkish state with their contiuous denial,no apology no reparations & all that.The more the Turkish state coninuous denial of Armenian Genocide,theft of my homeland,reparations… the more I am adamant to chase it in my own way.What quicksand are you talking about?
     I have said I have passed this cause to my children & I will definitely pass it to my grandchildren while still alive.And in case I’m dead I’ll make sure 100% that my children will pass it to their kids.
     You on your part try not to pass it to your kids.Let’s see if you’ll ever succeed.

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833. VTiger – I disagree – there is alot of deep venom here directed at ‘the Turks’, often with nothing more specific than that, and sometimes it extends to any Turkic human being from Istanbul to Central Asia.  Go back…read some of these posts. To me, this sounds like the demonizing of an entire group, which doesn’t sit well with me on any level.  We don’t appreciate when people say such things about Armenians in such a blanket way, so we should not hurl insults, either. 

     I can fully understand a certain amount of sadness when remembering the genocide – I totally get it. But, when the tone seems to be that you are bloody angry, 24/7,  about a thousand years of history, where does it end?  How does it end?  The lesson for the kids (and anyone else), is that history has been horribly unkind to many peoples, many nations.  But, two wrongs do not make a right, so maintaining a hostile attitude, toward a state, a governent of a group of people, is counterproductive and does not help the healing process, nor the chances for a full and honest acknowledgment of history by others. Of course I want to see Turkey not only acknowledge and apologize for 1915, and step up to the plate to make things right, but you must realize you are dealing with a group of people who were not even alive during the genocide or have no deep Anatolian roots in their past, as their families migrated to Turkey after the fact. Accusing Erdogan of ‘genocide’ or holding him responsible for it is like accusing Obama of genocide regarding Native Americans.  A million Iraqis died as a result of the US invasion…where are the charges? the accusations? the justice?  If that ever happens, it will come from within the US, perhaps with a push from outside.  Life and history are not tit-for-tat, or eye for an eye, exercises. If they were, we’d all be blind in one eye, which I guarantee you, nobody wants.  I know, you’re going to say, it’s just about justice…we want justice. Fine, no argument..go for it; but achieving that justice might just require a bit more finesse and alot less fervor, if it’s ever going to come about.

       

      

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834. gayane

     you write:
     because our actions is a reaction to people like you who is…..

     commment:

     do you mean to say that your actions may be exaggerated if seen in isolation, but understandable as a reaction?    
        

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835. Thus, ragnar naess,     I may conclude that except for your apology for the indiscreet use of the phrase ‘disposed of’, that has not even been a discussion point here, the “fact-oriented and polite” discussion with opponents, which you think generally represents the strength of the movement,  basically changed nothing in your views. You concur, as in “however, I feel I have had difficulties reaching through to you with my views”, that the idea of having fact-oriented and polite discussion is not the universal remedy for disagreements that opponents may have. Not because opponents are delusional and impolite, but because they may either ethnically belong to the murderer unrepentant nation or might be non-Turks who’ve been bought and paid for to advance denialism or spent some time of their life in Turkey enjoying flattery and thus became Turkophile or Turkocentric or joined the pathetic ranks of Armenian genocide denialists. Seriously, you may need to think twice about this idea of yours that fact-oriented and polite discussions represent the strength of a movement when you’ve witnessed what disoriented and impolite Turks or Turkophiles we’re dealing with on these pages.
      
     “For me a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define.”   The term ‘genocide’ has been amply explained and defined for the mankind. Moreover, it’s been explained and defined based, in tandem with the holocaust of the Jews, on the Turkish annihilation of Armenians. Moreover, a UN Genocide Convention has been adopted based on that explanation and definition and an ICTJ resolution, acknowledging Turkish barbarity against the Armenians as genocide, has been passed based on that explanation and definition. Therefore, it is no longer about explaining and defining the term. Rather, it’s about having integrity and courage to accept the truth and contribute to justice that Armenians advance worldwide.
      
     “I sometimes say ‘the deportations and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes “the relocation and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes ‘the Armenian genocide’.”    Simply not true. You’ve never said ‘the Armenian genocide’. Prove me wrong by referring me to any of your posts in this thread. Rather, you rushed to call the wartime atrocities against the Turks of Bulgaria, who were a civilian part of the Ottoman Turkish belligerent party, as genocide, thus juxtaposing the two incomparable cases.
      
     “And whether there is an agreement among the majority of researchers or not is not so interesting for me if I see serious flaws in the reasoning of this majority.”   Not quite so. You’re predisposed to seeing flaws in the reasoning of the majority. Not once have you critiqued the flaws in the reasoning of the bunch of genocide deniers, like McCarthy, who holds a ridiculous view that mass murders and forced deportations of the Armenians occurred as part of a civil war and were triggered by World War I, in which equally large numbers of Armenians and non-Armenians died. There is an agreement among the majority of researchers that such a view is rubbish, but since you say the views of the majority are not so interesting for you, do you agree with minoritarian McCarthy’s reasoning that Armenians, from the one hand, and Turks, from the other, were engaged in a civil war just like Confederates and Abolitionists in America or Whites and Reds in Russia? Do you agree that World War I had anything to do with triggering mass murders and forced deportations of the Armenians, the prevailing majority of whom were nowhere near the frontlines? Do you agree that during the mass murders and forced deportations of the unarmed, defenseless Armenians equally large numbers of non-Armenians might have died in the hands of the Armenians?
      
     “I completely disagree with your analysis of the fate of the Bulgarian Turks.”    We certainly can agree to disagree, but, regardless, equalization of the deliberate annihilation of a race by its own government with wartime atrocities that unfortunately, yet inevitably, affect a civilian population is the most absurd analysis I’ve ever come across. Do you think such equalization of the victims of deliberate genocidal annihilation and victims representing a party to a war, which in the first place had massacred Bulgarian civilians, is a fair tribute to human rights? If your reasoning for the Turks in Bulgaria was in line with human rights, we should have at the very least seen your concern about ethnic Bulgarian villagers savagely slaughtered by the Turks and Muslims before Turks suffered reciprocal atrocities from the Bulgarians and the Russians in the war. If you’re so devoted to human rights, why do you hyperbolize one atrocity and omit the other?

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836. Karekin,’deep venom’ is directed to those Turks who ‘DENY’ similar to their state.They become one.I/we have nothing against common Turks who do not deny.
     In all world cultures there is respect to their ancestors (including the Turkish) where on certain dates they visit their cemeteries & pay their respects.Where’s mine?Healing process starts when Turkey accepts,apologises…which it does just the opposite,which of course it makes me angry/angrier 24/7 & more adamant to continue with the struglle.Turkey is the inheritor of the Ottomans & Young Turks.How bizarre it would be if Germany denies the Holocaust on the basis that it was the nazi Germany that committed it…Jews/Israel & Germany have passed through the healing process meanwhile us are still…
     Iraqis were not subjected to a total annihilation/genocide/ethnic cleansing & did not lose their homeland & that is not a good example to compare with ours.With our own individual efforts we’ve achieved a lot & the work has not finised as yet until Turkey accepts & so on…

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837. By the way, ragnar naess,    since for you, like you said, a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define, I purposely retrieved the explanation and definition for another ridiculous term in the denialists’ vocabulary: “the relocation of Armenians.”  Oxford English Dictionary defines ‘relocation’ as follows: ‘a move to a new place and establishment of one’s home or business there’.  Kindly explain, when you say “the relocation of Armenians”, what new place did the Armenians move to and where are the homes and businesses that they established? Just pinpoint, if you will, what new places in Turkey the two million of ‘relocated’ Armenians now live and do business in?

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838. gor
     I just try to use different names, not to tie me up to any definite vocabulary because this is used to indicate partisanship, and does not explain much in itself. As you know I disagree with aspects of both the genocide scholars’ and the traditional Turkish view. –  To insist on certain names when asking for opinions is for me part of political rhetorics, not analysis. The main description and explanation regarding the events of 1915-16 I have given elsewhere, so the word used – “relocation” or “genocide” means pointing to what I have in mind, and have explained elsewhere. Sorry if this has cause confusion. But the point is probably that you want me to use the word “genocide”, repeating it and repeating it as a kind of marker of allegiance. But I dont do this. –   Regarding “relocation” it is the word used by the official Turkish position. Regarding the reality of the word, we see that those Armenians who were placed in tents in Zor or along the Euphrates were never “relocated”, that is never resettled, as far as I know, whereas those who ended up under the jurisdiction of Cemal Pasha mainly were relocated in the sense that they actually were settled. Of these, those who survived the last years of the war, or did not leave for other countries, survived to live in the area of today’s Libanon, Syria, Jordan and Palestine. Mainly Lebanon, if I am not mistaken. 

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839. Ragnar– you said to me
     commment:
     do you mean to say that your actions may be exaggerated if seen in isolation, but understandable as a reaction?   

     I say- when it comes to YOU and the denialists on our pages.. ABSOLUTELY NOT..NEI, HAYIR, XEYIR, UGUI, NEJ, OHI, NYET, NO, VOCH, VOCH VOCH... hope you understood… 

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840. ragnar naess,    I don’t want you to use the word ‘genocide’ repeatedly as a kind of marker of allegiance. You said you sometimes used “the Armenian genocide”.  I say you’re lying. Not once have you used it. Prove me wrong, if you can. Or visit Jewish online publications and dare to operate with terms such as ‘crime’, ‘murder’, ‘relocation’ instead of a proper term. Go tell the Jews that you prefer not tying yourself up to any definite vocabulary because this is used to indicate partisanship and does not explain much in itself. See what response you’ll get from the Jewish groups.
      
     You say: “To insist on certain names when asking for opinions is for me part of political rhetoric, not analysis.”  First of all, you’re not asking for opinions. You visit an Armenian online publication and debate from an already established platform. One also wonders as to how you can conduct analysis without ascertaining the name of the crime in question? Analysis of what? Some phantasmagoric occurrence? For Raphael Lemkin it never was a political rhetoric. He was courageous enough to analyze the cases of the Armenian and Jewish race annihilation and come up with the correct term as a gift to the mankind. To you, too.
      
     Re: ‘relocation’.  If the word is used by the official Turkish position, which, as I hope you understand, is denialist and distortionist, do we have to parrot it? Most historians claim that Tehcir Law was the proof of statewide activity in terminating the Armenian people, which is categorized as the state-organized genocide. According to Arnold Toynbee, at least 50 percent (up to 700,000 people) would be casualty of these forced deportations. Those whom you mention as survivors ending up in the areas of today’s Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Palestine, were not relocated by the Turkish government, that is: they were not, according to the definitions that you so like, ‘moved to a new place and established home or business there’. They survived death marches, concentration camps, en route massacres, and Armenian Auschwitz Birkenau extermination camp: Der Zor. So, I guess, in your imagination, marching Armenians to the sunny Syrian desert with no food or water, subject them to diseases, attacks, and abductions, is relocation? Is this how Turks and Turkophiles imagine ‘relocation’ of human beings? Very civilized…

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841. John the turk– you finally decided to come out huh? well at least it is a start….but i still think Christian name …your way of thinking.. ummm..can’t say they go hand in hand…… 

     you are implying that Gor was caught red handed?? REALLY? for what???

     if you ask me… i think YOU got caught red handed for being someone who is not intelligent enough to get it.. to understand it, to be able to read what was provided ..you have all the answers you need why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over.. i swear it is Robert the Turk and you relate somehow as he repeats the same things over and over as well..   

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842. John the Turk:

     Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, himself, on April 24th, 1920, called what happened to the Armenians, ‘a shameful act.’  Check your own history.  Turkey has been running from this truth for over 90 years.  But like a fugitive on the run, Turkey cannot run forever.  The truth will catch up with your nation.  Freeze!  You have been caught.

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843. V – I agree and understand your points, which are valid, but…a key difference you can’t ignore is that Germany was completely defeated and brought to its knees by the US, Russia and really, the rest of the world.  The aftermath was dictated by the victors. If something similar had happened to Turkey, we’d have a very different picture now, but it did not, so you cannot keep drawing a comparison.  On the surface, it seems like apples to apples, but in many ways, it is very different, particularly with the outcome.  Plus, none of the victors were on the side of Armenia or Armenians in a way that would be of help. Yes, part of Armenia was Sovietized and thus, saved from complete destruction, but animosity from the West got in the way in later years. Turkish Armenia and its plight was completely forgotten.

      

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844. Karekin- I agree with VTiger..but disagree.. HUGE HUGE disagreement when it comes to you and how you present yourself on these pages… are you intentionally spreading lies and inaccurate information about your own people because you yourself feel defeated and small?? Why would you do that?? Do you get satisfaction for dragging your own people through mud and spewing false accusations about us? Does that make you happy? Do you get off by putting down group of individuals who stand behind justice and will never step down (unlike you) until justice finally prevails?  You know what Karekin, do you even consider yourself an Armenian or supporter of Armenian cause? I say no.. otherwise you would not speak of such nonsense

     there is alot of deep venom here directed at ‘the Turks’, often with nothing more specific than that, and sometimes it extends to any Turkic human being from Istanbul to Central Asia.

     I am personally calling you a liar.. HUGE ONE… because NO ONE on this thread EVER said anything negative against an ordinary Turks.. every comment that was posted on this page was directed to TURKOPHILES, TURK DENIALISTS, TURKISH GOVT (including the Ottoman savages) AND people who go against their own people such as YOU… I dare you to go dig out a sentence that was directed  to any ordinary Turk.. Go and dig up the information.. until you do EVERYTHING YOU SAID AND CONTINUE TO SAY gets mental deletion … Shame on you Karekin.. Shame shame shame.. all your efforts to help Armenia and Artsagh goes down the drain not because it may not be true but you present yourself in a way that I don’t want to associate myself with you.. and i don’t care if you don’t care whether or not I want to be associated with you, i just wanted to voice it…

     I can fully understand a certain amount of sadness when remembering the genocide – I totally get it. But, when the tone seems to be that you are bloody angry, 24/7,  about a thousand years of history, where d oes it end?  How does it end?

     really? just a certain amount of sadness??? you feel certain amount of sadness for losing your entire family to a savage civilazation?? is that how much feelings you have for your lost family and wealth??? Do you think we are angry 24-7??? well you must be a fortunate teller to know all this because i for one, i am pretty happy most of the day. the only time I get really frustrated is when I come here and read your stupid comments along with Ragnar’s and Turk denialists… but to say 24-7 that is a lie… you are lying yet agan…

     it will never end Karekin.. NEVER until we get closure.. so don’t get your sorry hopes up that by being so negative will help you to achieve your goal…i for one will never ever support you in any way… no matter how much you say you love Armenia….

     Gayane  

     Gayane

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845. Hovhan jan– BAM!!! You said it my friend… apres…

     Gor jan– Ragnar has no where to run anymore.. his head has to stop banging at some point and it finally happened.. he can’t go against you no matter how much he tries.. and I love the fact that every time he tries, you immediately and beautifully with full of facts stop him dead on his tracks.. love it.. :) 

     Gayane

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846. gor

     I am afraid you are chasing windmills. On august 15  I wrote on this Bedrosian thread:
     Second
     I hope to have Norwegians at large get interested in the issue. The problem now
     is that nobody is interested. Whether this is done by political means, by
     trying to mobilize Amnesty International or by other means is another matter.
     At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into
     the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide, understood as
     formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, is the most important.
      

     note that I use the expression but qualify it, as I said. Honestly, gor, what are you aiming at? I belive you owe me an apology. 

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847. Karekin,   You speak of healing process.  The only way that will happen when the Turkish government accepts the Armenian Genocide and pay reparations to Armenians.

      

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848. Relocation of a people from one’s homeland is a form of Genocide.  Thus the relocation was a mere death marches of the Armenian people from their homeland by the Turkish government of 1915.

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849. ‘I am personally calling you a liar..’  (to Karekin)

     I second that Gayane. 

     Karekin, produce the posts or sentences that you consider as ‘a lot of deep venom’ towards (Ordinary) Turks, or withdraw your accusations. 

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850. Monastras

     I have not heard from you lately. I cannot find the questions you allegedly asked of me, and you have not commented on my arguments for genocidal intent in the ittihadist center. Unless the debate between Armenians and Turks focus on the central themes of the question, the debate will go on unresolved forever. If the Turkish side does not make an effort to answer these arguments regarding themes and questions whose answers really makes a difference, debates will be some kind of strange games in which discussant stamina and small victories on details will be the dominant feature, not any overall strategy of dialogue on facts and evaluations that may eventually produce the most important answers.  

     Reply

851. Ladies and Gents.. ladies and Gents… STOP THE PRESSES. STOP THE PRESSES..Ragnar AFTER a year or so of debating and after Gor and I (my post did not get through…) called him out for lying through his teeth when he stated that he did use Armenian genocide, he FINALLY uses it in his last post to Gor

      Ragnar said: note that I use the expression but qualify it, as I said. Honestly, gor, what are you aiming at? I belive you owe me an apology

     He used the expression just for the heck of it to show us he used it but he forgets that NO ONE gives a damn whether or not he used it .. because it is all a mask.. all with ill intention because he knows he go caught red handed.. no where to run and no where to hide….now because he used this expression, he is using it AGAINST Gor and ON TOP OF THAT.. WITHOUT SHAME.. Without remorse.. He demands an apology… an apology from Gor…. CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS??? Can one be as blunt and has this much audocity to ask for an apology when no apology is due… when it is HIM that needs to apologize and kiss our feet for forgiveness of all the fabricated, messed up, confusing, and false accusations he dumped on us.. WOW.. WOW..WOW…Do you have SHAME Ragnar.. it is very embarassing for a 70 years old to act like a 13 year old.. Grow up sir.. grow up… 

     ragnar said: I hope to have Norwegians at large get interested in the issue. The problem nowis that nobody is interested.

     can you do us a favor and stop doing this or that to help this or that.. because apparently if i had YOU to help me make up my mind on something, i for sure won’t be able to do so.. you are as confused, as crazed up, as lost as any Turk denialists … the more you try the more you are confuse the heck of everyone.. so instead of helping this or that why don’t you help yourself to a nice dose of reality shot.. and that is.. YOU can’t, and will never be able to help educate anyone as you yourself can’t and will never be fit to do so… please acknowledge it and go live your life and enjoy whatever years you have left without pounding and shoving bias stories and information down your countrymen’s throats.. not that Norwegians are dying to listen to you….  

     Reply

852. It’s interesting that your treatment of a fellow Armenian is so unkind as to be hard to distinguish from your approach to your adversaries.  By discussing things in a realistic, not fantasy – Disneyland way, I too become the target of your venom, which seems to ooze out very easily.  You are clearly not about having a discussion, you are all about pummelling anyone who doesn’t boost your line of thinking, lock, stock and barrel.  You insist on words that go in perfect lockstep with your mindset…there can be no grey areas…you are always right, 1000%!  And, you seem to insist on having your own way, by stepping on anyone else who sees the glass as being half empty vs half full.  For those who might want to have an intelliigent discussion on this topic, it seems they always get cornered by the same bullies. Might I remind you that this is what the CUP did to Armenians? 

     I would suggest that you all go back and read your own words, words that very often refer to today’s Turks (presumably all of them – not just denialists) as central Asians, as thugs, as barbaric, as murderers, as people whose grandfather’s killed yours, stole your lands, your homes, your churches, etc, etc, etc.  Now, I’m no fan of any of the Young Turks, of the CUP, of Enver, Jemal or Talaat…and their killing machine or those from outside Turkey (Germany) who supported them. They are all criminals, without question. At the same time, they are all dead as doornails. Some were executed for their crimes inside Turkey, and others, like Talaat who met their end by the hand of a courageous and heroic Armenian.  It seems that you are equating the crimes committed by the original murderers, all of whom are long gone, with those living in Turkey today…and saying that they are all equal.  And while being a hard core denialist is bad, it is not as bad as those who committed the actual crimes, and this is because with the right education, without lies or political pressure, every denialist can and probably will step out of their little mental box.  It is the same kind of box that kept Russians living under a failed political and economic system for 80 years.  Most hated it and knew it was a lie, but what were the alternatives?  What could they do on their own?  The system was too big and too powerful for them to speak out or act out, no matter what their convictions were.  If/when Erdogan and his government remove the penalties associated with discussing the Armenian genocide openly and honestly, without the threat of legal action, the intellectual and educational situation inside Turkey will change, because beneath the veneer of lies, brainwashing and propaganda, there is an ocean of truth that is known and understood by millions of Turks.  The idea is to encourage those truths to come to the surface, to be seen and understood by everyone involved on this issue. 

      

     Reply

853. Karekin,as said before we’ve achieved a lot (the diaspora) with our own efforts without having the backing of a government.In case you have a new method for the struggle then let us know about it in detail.Some of us might be convinced & follow.
     With the football diplomacy we saw what terms Turkey exerted on us on behalf of Aliyevistan.I heard Erdogan’s speech at the UN yesterday…nothing has changed… the current Turkish government’s policies are exactly the same as Young Turks’ & Kemal Mustafa’s…
     The struggle continues.

     Reply

854.  ‘a lot of deep venom’ towards (Ordinary) Turks, ? here is only  a few …

     it is imperative to focus our energies onTurkeyin an effort to demean it, tear it down, etc

     However, it is this writer’s humble opinion that  the artificial country ofTurkeyis ripe for disintegration. 

     With Turkeyon an inexorable march back to its Islamist roots, the West will finally come out of its hibernation and withdraw its massive support of the GenocidalState.
     Without massive support from the West,Turkey will continue its disintegration which was arrested by massive support from the West (and Bolshevik Russia) during 1915-1923. The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza will tear it apart from inside. Ethnic Turks have more enemies that they can deal with.
     Payback time you Genocidal psychopaths. 

     A British diplomatic way of saying “…we don’t want your Muslim Turk hordes invading our Western Christian Civilizations any more”. Maybe you guys need to start planning a trip back home – to theAltai Mountainsand Mongolian Steppes, your native homeland ?

     I proudly  troll the web for bad news about Turks and Azeris: enjoy it as a
     matter of fact: no surprise, I never made a secret of my dislike of the Fascist Turkish and Azeri States, pray daily in fact for their dissolution.

     And yes, Turks and Azeris truly fears us: you can tell by their hysterics and obsession withArmenia.

     Turkey’s inexorable  return to their Islamist roots will bring  it into a deadly clash with the Judeo-Christian West. Whether fair or not, the West, particularlyEurope,  cannot tolerate a dangerous Islamic state at its doorsteps. It will be dismembered, just like theOttoman Empire. Europeans have realized that allowing millions of Turks into their countries was a big mistake: Turks are a mortal danger to the existence ofEuropeas a Western Judeo-Christian civilization

     The relentless Turkophile  Agitprop and Anti-Armenian disinformation continues unabated.
     We therefore have no choice but to relentlessly and cheerfully counter said disinformation. No, please, no need for thanks: it’s our pleasure

     Has received 100s of US$ Billions in assistance from the wealthy West and USA.
     Military budget subsidized by the wealthy West for being part of NATO.
     Brand new modern factories designed and built in Turkey by Europeans (Germany) that produce consumer and white goods for the European, US, and Middle Eastern markets.
     Unrestricted, tariff-free access to the rich markets of the West

     Why Greece? because they are in the same neighborhood.
     They were under the efficient Capitalist system.
     Their Per Capita GDP is 3 times that of Turkey: any questions ?
     Tell me again how great the Turks are: Greeks and Turks have been the beneficiaries of West’s largess.
     Yet Greeks are doing 3 times better: any questions ?
     And Greeks are great people, but we all know they like the good life and are not particularly hard working, right ?  

     (this is wonderful news: the Kemalist vs Islamist clash is getting ripe. Coming up –  a military coup or civil war: either way would be great forArmenia)

     we have a tiger-team here: the Turks, Azeris and their agents are on the ropes  here. Let’s also start regularly going  to the Turkish sites – irritate the hell out of ‘em.

     Back to what I want forTurkey:
      
     I want Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces, so it no longer presents a clear and present danger to my homeland and my people… I would very much like for the Turks to go back to their own homeland at the base of the Altai Mountains….. So I don’t really care if it ends up being Islamist, Kemalist, Fascist, Communist, whatever.
     As long as it breaks up into manageable pieces…. The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza can no longer be contained. The more rights they get the more they’ll demand. Independence is only a matter of time. In this day and age suppression will not work either. And of course they are too numerous to be wiped out like Armenians were.
     Once Kurds and Zaza break free, the breakup of Turkey will pick up pace.
     Turkey has many, many enemies. When they go down like the Ottoman Empire, the long knives will come out to carve it up.
     And there are no Germans and Bolsheviks to save the Turks this time from ending up with a rump state……… I graduated with honors from the Armenian KGB’s (at the time) Directorate of Psychological Warfare, Psyops & Counter-Psyops, Disinformation & Counter-Disinformation School of Advanced Studies.

     I tell ya: if I wasn’t born Armenian, I would have  injected myself with some of them magnificent Armenian genes. Thems Armenians are amazing folks.

     Islam, Kurds and Armenians are going to tear Turkeyapart. When Western Armenia is liberated andRepublicofKurdistanhas established, Turks might have peace in the region

     Don’t you realize that the reason that you don’t look like an asiatic mongolian and insted look like an ARian ARmenian is also partly because of Brits?You should at least be thankful to them.  And if you don’t, you know what will happen?
     They will change your culture one more time.  Actualy I think you are the next on their list

     not too bad record For someone not graduated from KGB  , huh? MR Avery, The Great Hero ?

     Reply

855. I’m not chasing windmills, ragnar naess.    I’m chasing you because I sense you’re a genocide denier. I’m aiming at exposing you whenever you offer historical distortions, absurd equalizations, or sheer denialism of the genocidal intent in mass extermination of the Armenians.
      
     Thank you for the excerpt from your August 15 post addressed to Boyajian. My English language reading comprehension skills do not automatically put me at liberty of interpreting it as a proof that you “sometimes use ‘the Armenian genocide’.”  I can only see in the excerpt that ‘the Armenian genocide’ was used in the context of the ICTJ resolution and how the ICTJ–not you personally–had called the crime.  Read carefully:  “At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ [emphasis mine] is the most important.”  I have a difficulty seeing that the term was used by you in the context of “calling things with their proper name”, which was the point of our most recent exchange of views.
      
     Also noted is that a clause that followed this excerpt was conveniently omitted. Here it is: “[…] I support the Armenian cause with certain qualifications. I will not support the arguments forwarded bygenocide scholars and Armenian scholars when I experience them to be dubious or have been shown to be mistaken.” Read: “I will not support the argument in favor of genocide”, a major argument of international genocide scholars and Armenian scholars.
      
     Also noted is your post on the same day of August 15 addressed to Gayane: “But if you ask the question ‘was it a genocide?’ in a strictly juridical sense, that is according to the reasonings applied in the Convention and above all the verdicts regarding Rwanda and Bosnia and the legal opinions regarding e.g. Darfur, I am not sure [emphasis mine] and believe Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide […] [emphasis mine].”  You contradict yourself. On the one hand, you cite ICTJ criteria in the context of which ‘the Armenian genocide’ term was used, on the other, you doubt that according to the reasonings applied in the UN Genocide Convention one can maintain it was genocide. But ICTJ criteria were based on the reasonings applied in the Convention, weren’t they?  Also, “the verdicts regarding Rwanda and Bosnia and the legal opinions regarding Darfur” cannot be above the UN Convention as a fundamental international law on genocide. Legal opinions, as far as I know, do not have any juridical force, by the way.

     Reply

856. Karekin, I’ve said it before; your armchair psychology is leaving you ill-equipped to pass judgment on your fellow Armenians.   You may have found a way to rise above the collective pain of the genocide, but that does not give you the right to criticize others who are dealing with their reality in their way.   The Armenians are a communal people.  We confess our sins communally.   We create centers and build churches in all our diasporan communities. We wait to read the credits at the end of movies looking for the one or two Armenians listed, and delight in the chance encounter with any ian or yan we meet.  This communal identity comes from our shared history, deeply rooted to a place that we occupied for thousands of years and were displaced from only one hundred years ago.  That is a blink in time and not long enough to have erased our collective memory and attachment to the place that gave birth to our language and culture.   You are not giving the proper respect to those who are still suffering this loss because, unlike you, they have not given up hope to reclaim what is theirs.  You have accepted defeat and deal with it by focusing on what we have left.  Nothing wrong with this.  But there is also nothing wrong with struggling to right a wrong or find justice for a crime.  You can disagree and cope as you like, but it is not your right to demean those who are not like you.

     Reply

857. Dear Gayane and Avery, I also would like to have Karekin to produce sentences where anyone in here used ‘a lot of venum’ towards (ordinary) Turks.  

     Reply

858. gayane

     I wish you luck with your writings on your family. This is an important task. If I knew your family name I would have been happy to order your book (you told us in the Davutoglu debate that your first name in fact is Gayane) But when you say that I have nowhere to turn, I am afraid you are mistaken. Gor is not able to distinguish between the rights and duties of civilians and soldiers in the case of the Bulgarian Turks in 1878-79, and now he has accused me of lying about using the expression “Armenian genocide”, and I have produced an instance from august 15 when I used that expression. Regarding your input, it seems that we have a case of very loud shouting from the cheerleader in order to cover up mistakes in one’s own team…….. 

     Reply

859. gor

     you accused me of lying, and I proved you wrong. Your sophistries cannot save you from that. Be a man and apologize!  

     Reply

860. Karekin    —-For “a lot of venom”, please visit online Daily Zaman and Hurriyet. Believe me, you won’t be disappointed to see what rampant armenophobia the Turks express in regard to ordinary Armenians. Armenians, who didn’t mass murder Turks as a race or forcibly deported them from their ancestral homeland in Central Asia.

     Reply

861.  Ragnar was demanding an apology from Gor..my reaction to that???? With a LOUD laugh… i was laughing because of his shameless act.. I don’t know if Ragnar thinks we are bunch of stupids to do that but i know Ragnar with much shameless manner used the expression “Armenian Genocide” in his last post (see below) to show us “inbreds” that he does know the word Genocide and he uses it BUT of course we know he never did in the last year or so and i am positive he will never use the word going forward.. not the way it needs to be used.., .

     At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ [emphasis mine] is the most important.”  

     we know very well why he used it.. he used it to throw a bone at us..to say you guys are wrong accusing me for lying..and being a denialist… but reality remains as such: Ragnar did lie and he represents the denialists party…..talk about having the audocity playing us like this and THEN telling Gor to apologize to him.. wow…

     Ragnar–this is just my own opinion… you are not fit to be a historian or a writer merely because you don’t have the expertise, the knowledge nor the emotions to right a book that represents true history with accurate data and without being bias… you are not fit to be called a Historian or a humanitarian who pretends to work toward helping Turks to go into their dark pages of history and acknolwedge and accept the fault of their ancestors because you yourself is very bias toward your favorite party and that is not Armenia…just not happening… sorry to be blunt.. 

     Gayane

     Reply

862. Karekin,

     ԱՅՍՔԱՆ ՉԱՐԻՔ ԹԷ ՄՈՌԱՆԱՆ ՄԵՐ ՈՐԴԻՔ՝
     ԹՈՂ ՈՂՋ ԱՇԽԱՐՀ ԿԱՐԴԱՅ ՀԱՅՈՒՆ ՆԱԽԱՏԻՆՔ:

     Աւետիս Ահարոնեան

     Reply

863. IF ALL THE EVILS SHALL BE FORGOTTEN BY OUR OFFSPRINGS,

     LET THE ENTIRE WORLD TREAT ARMENIANS CONTEMPTUOUSLY.

     Avedis Aharonian
     translated by Seervart

     *I believe this is the better translation.* S      

     Reply

864. ragnar naess,    I hereby reiterate: not once have you—in the form of a personal assessment and out of the context of any document—used the term ‘genocide’ in describing the Turkish crime against Armenians. An extract from your post proves absolutely nothing because any literate person with a fair command in the English language would understand it as referring to the wording and formulation that the ICTJ—not you personally—used.  “Armenian genocide […] formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ” (read: not my own criteria) cannot possibly represent your own denomination of the crime as such. It is you who resort to sophistries by choosing to offer a ‘proof’ as a seemingly plausible argument, whereas in reality it’s actually invalid and misleading.
      
     I’ve got othing to apologize: in this thread you’ve never denominated—in your own words and formulation—the race annihilation of Armenians as genocide.

     Reply

865. Necati     —-Where in the extracts that you brought forward do you find “a lot of venom” in regards to ordinary Turks?  I could only notice indignation against the state of Turkey, fascist Turkish and Azeri states, as well as mentioning of Turkish online sites, possible return of Turkey to their Islamist roots, bad online news about Turkey and Azeristan, etc.  Exactly where do you see any ‘venom’ (figurative noun for malice, hate, spite, etc.) directed at ordinary Turkish citizens?

     Reply

866. ragnar naess,     be a man, rephrase your statement as follows:  “Turks must go into black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide—as I understand and formulate it—is the most important.”  This will be seen as the first instance when you will have used ‘the Armenian genocide’ understood as formulated in your own criteria and assessment, not those of the ICTJ or the International Association of Genocide Scholars or the European Parliament.  From then on, if I ever say you’ve lied that you used ‘the Armenian genocide’, I’ll be a man and apologize.

     Reply

867. Necati Genis oglu, here is what you said a little while ago:
     http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/19/new-armenian-church-in-iraqi-kurdistan/#comments
     ——————–BEGIN PASTE
     necati August 20, 2011
     editor: i know you think i am a fascist, racist .
     you know that i was full of humanity until i met you Gaymenians in this f****** AW?
     You know i was one who can not kill even an ant ?
     You know i liked my ermeni friend too much before i met you?Now i  am thinking he makes role being  a human..
     sorry to tell you..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians…this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians.you made me an animal.
     You must be proud of yourself.especially that one , f*****-up gayvery, the ex-commy.

     necati August 20, 2011 
     i just want to know: how a human can get happy for the death of another human who is even  a soldier? This avery is not human..neither am i from now.

                     

     necati August 20, 2011 
     and i am sorry for my bad words about editors of AW.
     Please accept my apologies.

     ————————–END PASTE
     BTW, I changed to ****: the original post had the words spelled out fully.
      
     Foul-mouthed Necati, I am surprised you  had the gall to come back to  @AW after that hate-filled Anti-Armenian outburst.
      
     Next,  regarding this: [necati September 23, 2011   ‘a lot of deep venom’ towards (Ordinary) Turks, ? here is only  a few …]
      
     You have mixed-in  excerpts from my posts with those of the others. (most are mine: I stand by them).
     Nevertheless, even sentences taken out of context by you from long posts do not remotely qualify as ‘venom’  against  Ordinary Turks.
     Nice try. No cigar.
      
      
     Finally, after you have profusely apologized to ALL Armenians (not just editors of AW), particularly Armenian posters here, for this……
     ‘..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians’
     ‘this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians’
     ……I might discuss any particular post of mine with you here @AW. No promises  though: your Aug 20, 2011 outburst concerns me greatly.
     Maybe you need to see a specialist MD: your health should be of paramount importance to you, not Armenians.
      
      
     Any other Turk or Turkophile that wants to challenge me on any of my posts: reference the entire post, highlight the sentence you wish to discuss, and we’ll have a go at it.

     Reply

868. ragnar naess,     be a man, explain, if you will. If you think you used ‘the Armenian genocide’ in the following clause as a proof that you call things by their name: “[…] Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ is the most important”, yet the very same day you stated “[…] if you ask the question ‘was it a genocide?’ […] I am not sure and believe Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide”, in which of these two instances are you being a man and honest?

     Reply

869. In case anyone thinks the above outburst was an aberration, here is another sample of what  this ‘Ordinary’ individual  Turk Necati  thinks of Armenians.
     [necati says:
     July 15, 2011 at 4:48 am
     was not 1million killed by Turks, it was 10milyon…so what ?]

     http://asbarez.com/97014/council-of-europe-concerned-about-press-freedoms-in-turkey/#comments

     That is the entire post, not an out-of-context excerpt. 
      
      

     Reply

870. Not for nothing, but this thread has disintegrated.

     Reply

871. Ragnar– I will support and cheer my friends until the end.. you know why???? because Gor and Avery are two individuals who do not lie like you SIR..they don’t change their minds like you.. they dont’ present the wrong side.. YOU do…so if my cheering my friends for their righteousness and justice, then i guess i am an accomplice..and a very proud one…but please don’t hate…..

     Reply

872. Gor jan– I am 100% with you..excellent response to Ragnar.. Bravo…

     Avery jan– BAMMMMMMMMMMM!!!! bull’s eye..:)  love it…

     Karo jan– always great to have you with us… love your posts…   

     Reply

873. gor

     your assertion was that I never used the expression “The Armenian genocide”, which was wrong. Even that I lied. I do not remember the other instance you mention, but my point has been that many on these pages have a mistaken belief that the thesis of genocdal intent in the upper echelons of the CUP is established beyond reasonable doubt. So I may have referred to this. The context is always important. But I understand you will not apologize for your accusations of lie, which obviously was mistaken and insulting. 

     Reply

874. gor

     I did not see your first post. No, I have in mind the criteria used by the ICTJ, by force of their text and the reasoning used. They are not my criteria. In this sense many genocides happened. To maneuvre by selection of criteria in order that only atrocities committed against Ottoman Christians is considered genocide and not atrocities committed against Turks, is very questionable.  

     Reply

875. Monastras

     Let us assume that you are right and that  a considerable part of the deportations happened as a result of actions of the local officials, and against the will of the central CUP.  This indeed is in line with the points made by Christian Gerlach in his book “Extremely violent societies” (Cambridge 2010). His point is not to absolve the government of responsibility, but to point to the very broad participation of ordinary Muslims in plundering and killing Armenians. Almost everybody joined into the plunder ad killing, he says. As Karekin does he puts the emphasis on the economical motive. Gerlach did very important work on the Holocaust, but it is difficult to call him a genocide researcher since he is critical of the concept genocide as used in genocide research. He holds that the term genocide does not function as a good analytical term. But the moral debt of Ottoman Muslims will not be less if local officials on their own undertook these atrocities. I hope you return to the discussion to explain more.

     Reply

876. gor and Gayane

     I will try to explain better.

     gor you write:
     “For me a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define.”   The term ‘genocide’ has been amply explained and defined for the mankind. Moreover, it’s been explained and defined based, in tandem with the holocaust of the Jews, on the Turkish annihilation of Armenians. Moreover, a UN Genocide Convention has been adopted based on that explanation and definition and an ICTJ resolution, acknowledging Turkish barbarity against the Armenians as genocide, has been passed based on that explanation and definition. Therefore, it is no longer about explaining and defining the term. Rather, it’s about having integrity and courage to accept the truth and contribute to justice that Armenians advance worldwide.
      comment:

     I feel we should stop discussing this, but I only say this: to agree on a definition is only half of the task, or even less, in a given case. A definition  must be used, it must be applied to actions. This holds for the concept of genocide in the Convention. How to apply it does not only depend on the  text of the definition, it depends on a lot of factual knowledge. To tak an example from another sphere: We may agree on a definition of “burglary” which excludes cases were doors were nor locked and people entered the hoiuse and stole, this is then not to be considered burglary, but this fact, the agreement on a definition, does not say anything about whether a door actually was locked in a given case or not.  Further: Primarily the defintion of genocide  must be applied to actions of individuals. Here it is a great difference if we apply it to people on the ground or if we apply it to leaders. It is very hard to deny that people on the ground in 1915 committed genocide, quite another thing to say that leaders did (instead of saying that they failed to stop it, which is what the commission on Jugoslavia says about the Serb leadership in regard to Srebrenitsa). – Second if we say “it was genocide” what does “it” refer to? The ICTJ talks about the “events, viewed collectively”. This opens for a whole range of questions, of another kind and very different from saying that such or such a person or group of persons committed genocide. – So I ask why do you feel constrained to formulate your case in a juridical language which opens for all kinds of technical questions? Why not primarily insist that  terrible atrocities and injustices were committed against Armenians, and that Turks so far have not related honestly to it, and have not given any compensation to descendants for properties expropriated or outright stolen? Describe the concrete actions as witnessed by many, show the facts of the original homeland being emptied of Armenians! This speaks for itself!  People will understand it, but not the wrangling about the application of specific juridical terms!  When I try to say something about gneocide, it is because i am constantly being challenged by people in the AW who feels that this word – the admission that this word explains the whole thing, the insistence that one has to repeat this formula “it was genocide” –will help Armenians in their quest for justice. But as a friend I say: dont rely too much on this word! Do not always put it in the headlines! Do not go into any dispute that offers itself about this word! And honestly, gor, you are not up to par in the question of application of terms in a juridical context! Maybe I also am not! I just expressed my opinion as a lay person. 
         

     Reply

877. Ragnar

     The questions should be in my previous posts. I will find and copy them here. As far as I am concern, I answered your question as well but I will recall your question and answer as soon as I can 

     Reply

878. gayane

     I have known  you for a long time, it is actually more than a year, and I believe you say what you stand for. That is good. I also believe it is good for the two gentlemen you mention to have somebody cheering them.  

     Reply

879. ragnar naess,   please stop.  You never used the expression ‘the Armenian genocide’ in the context of calling things by their name and as a revelation of your personal belief, criteria, and assessment. You used the expression as a sophistry in the context of the ICTJ wording, as evidenced in: “understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ.”  I offered you a chance to prove that the clause “understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ” reflects your own formulation, but you chose to ignore it. I’m giving you a second chance: rephrase your statement by replacing the clause “understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ” with this one: “as I understand and formulate it.” Unless you do so, I will consider my accusation that you were untruthful when you said you’ve used ‘the Armenian genocide’ in your personal—not ICTJ’s—context, to be accurate.
      
     Further, whether it’s questionable or not, the fact remains that the ICTJ recognized that only atrocities committed against Ottoman Christians are considered genocide and not atrocities committed against Bulgarian Turks. I gave you two reasons as to why I think the ICTJ might have done so, but I understand that no reasoning can soothe the soul of a Turkophile who sees things primarily from a Turkocentric angle.
      
     Further, I never claimed to be up to par in the question of application of terms in a juridical context, because in contrast to you I never claimed to be a polymath. I think if Armenians veer from application of a specific juridical term ‘genocide’, which legally defines Turkish atrocities and injustices, and primarily insist that terrible atrocities and injustices were committed against them outside the confines of a juridical term, Turks will use this as a conveniently handed over chance to equalize—like you do—centrally-planned atrocities and injustices against Armenians aimed at annihilation of a race and wartime atrocities and injustices against, for instance, Bulgarian Turks. Therefore, without application of a juridical term, Turks will easily arrive at an equation, which they’ve always attempted to advance, that ‘everyone suffered’. Reenergized by such an equation, why would Turks relate honestly to the terrible atrocities and injustices against Armenians? Why give any compensation to descendants for properties expropriated or outright stolen? Why consider restitution of the original Armenian homeland emptied of Armenians? After all, the terrible atrocities and injustices against them were not recognized in the juridical term, therefore the UN Convention cannot be applicable to the Armenian case and, consequently, no recognition, compensation, and restitution are needed at all.
      
     P.S.  I don’t’ know maybe in Norway folks can walk in an unlocked house, steal, and be not charged with burglary, but in America even if the doors were not locked and people entered the house and stole, they’d be charged with burglary.

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880. Ragnar– i am happy you know me.. even though I doubt you really do after you accuse me of hiding behind a fake name or calling out Robert the Turk as someone heartless and vicious.. ALL LIES LIES LIES.. just like you are trying to slither yourself out of the fact that you NEVER EVER (I know you for more than a year as well) you called Armenian Genocide as it is.. GENOCIDE… you never ever used the expression Armenian Genocide ON THIS PAGES or any pages how it should be used. TO US and EVERYONE ELSE who will be reading this thread will get the point.. that YOU will never use this word because you NEVER EVER believe in it… You keep using stupid reasons to justify as to why you won’t use the Genocide as it is.. GENOCIDE.. Gor asked you a very straight forward question.. WHY ARE YOU CONTRADICTING YOURSELF when you talk about Genocide.. you have been contradictive yourself alot… over a year or so…believe me you will NEVER EVER get an apology from me for one.. second i hope Gor does not either… you have to apologize TO ALL OF US for your shameless words and treatment of the Armenians on these pages and our ancestors for calling us “Inbreds” and our ancestors to be “disposed”… and you have the balls to ask for an apology that is not due to you??  HA.. i know it gets lonely when you don’t have people cheering for you Ragnar.. well change your confused self and step out of that enigma world of yours and stand up for the truth and justice and maybe you will have people cheering for you.. just don’t hate Ragnar..

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881. Ragnar– would nto that be nice and convenient to say that we should not hang on the word Genocide and should accept that there were autrocities and Turks have not faced up to their responsibilities of paying back.. ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??? Autrocities??? of course if you use the word autrocities and not Genocide TURKEY will get off the case with mere slap on their hand.. YOU DENIALISTS are afraid of the word GENOCIDE (which occured between 1986-1923) because GENOCIDE comes with much harsher and bigger consequences, especially now turkish govt have bee denying it for almost 90 years… NICE TRY Ragnar… nice try…

     monastras – stop trying.. actually even if you try you won’t be able to respond to Ragnar’s questions because we know what will come out of your denialist mouth…   

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882. Gor jan– . brilliant as ALWAYS….

     apparently Ragnar leaves his valuables out in open: leave the doors and windown open for anyone to walk in and steal… how genereous of him.. ahhhhhhh..and when one does he is going to say it is ok.. that is not considered a burglary.. because in my messed up head i don’t see it that way…

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883. ragnar naess,    are the verbs ‘to murder’, ‘to slaughter’, ‘to massacre’ and so on, juridical terms? If they’re not and since you believe you generally call things by their proper name—as in ‘crime’ instead of ‘genocide’—what stopped you from using the verb ‘to murder’ instead of hypothetical ‘to die’ in this magnum opus of yours: “The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16”? Or maybe you think the verb ‘to murder’ is likewise a juridical term like the term ‘genocide’? Then please explain how several hundred thousand humans could reach a ripe age and die all together or refer us to one of the fables authored by McCarthy that maintains that an all-national convention was convened before 1915 during which several hundred thousand Armenians agreed to die all together in the consecutive two years. Or maybe you have some psychological problem with calling things by their name? Please advise.

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884. Friends, I agree with Darwin Jamgochian regarding the disintegration of the thread. 
     I suggest, for the sake of continuing a productive discussion in which we pursue the dissemination of truth, we simply accept that Ragnar acknowledges genocide happened to the Armenians according to whatever definition he chooses.  Agree to disagree with his understanding, present arguments against his understanding, and move the dialogue forward…or stop altogether.

     Even if he was the vilest of all genocide deniers, I don’t think it is productive or worthwhile to stall our discussion on this point.  It is still better to continue presenting facts to counter any statements with which we disagree, instead of attacking him or anyone else in a personal way, no matter how repugnant the denial is.   It weakens our position to argue in this manner.  

     The deniers are out there, they live among us.  Some deny because they don’t know better, some deny because they do know better and want to hide the truth, and some simply want to have their say on this controversial topic and must maintain access to people and places by couching their words.   We have to be prepared to expose falsehoods regardless of where they come from and do so with the strength of our facts, not just the strength of our outrage (however justified).
     This might get me in trouble, but I think I get Ragnar, though I may not like his position or agree with it.  He wants to discuss the ‘facts’ of what happened to the Armenians without being constrained by the word ‘genocide.’  He acknowledges that genocide happened against Armenians (according to ICTJ guidelines)and that these acts were widely carried out by ordinary Ottoman citizens, but he questions whether there is enough evidence to establish that the CUP leadership ‘intended’ genocide.  Yet he does not out and out deny that they might have.  He simply sees the question as still open and awaiting a conclusive answer, as any unemotional researcher would.  

     His overarching point seems to be that the word genocide and our emotional attachment to the word is limiting the discussion and the examination of the many facets of the genocide.  He acknowledges the atrocities, the tragedy, the brutality, the inhumanity, the utter destruction, and undeniable elimination of the Armenian presence on their Asia Minor homeland (my words, not his).  But he wants to be free to examine the events and what led to them without commitment to either side’s agenda, (though, in my opinion, he tends to uncritically accept some of the Turkish denial-oriented propaganda).  And he naively (?) attempts to do this among Armenian Weekly readers who are predominantly descendants of survivors and defenders of the Armenian Cause!  Perhaps he chooses this hostile audience to test run his pro-Turkish views on purpose, to see if they will fly? 
     Let the deniers expose their distortions, but let the facts prove the truth.  They may still accuse us of ‘venom’ toward Turks, but any level-headed reader will know that our anger is directed toward an unpunished crime and those who maliciously deny it and not toward Turks in general.
     I have some reading to do…
      
      

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885. Gayane,

     I’m still waiting for us to debate! Will you or will you not accept my challenge? If you do accept, then BRAVO, you truly are courageous. If, on the other hand, you refuse, then that says quite a bit! Either way, I’ll respect whichever decision you make.  

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886. Robert.. and for the millionth times, STOP HARASSING ME with this.. you got your answers and there is nothing else for YOU to address to me… not only you are a denialist but you are a chronic obsessor …. the debates of the world won’t change the fact that you will remain as a deniar…case closed…. so please get over it and move on……otherwise i will refer  you to all the replies you got from me over and over..

     Good day 

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887. Boyajian jan– i love you and respect you and no your post will not get you in trouble.. why would it? it is your own opinion and you should be able to freely express it.. if you get Ragnar then that is great… but i disagree with the fact that Ragnar get its.. 100% disagree… Ragnar may seem he supports Genocide but in reality he is not.. I DONT” CARE WHAT HE SAYS .. i am sorry…we have known him too long and too well…  if he is the person that you say he is, then he should have NEVER EVER accused or spread lies about me, Gor or Avery with such disrespect and malice (note.. he expressed such negativity from his own head and without any STRONG EVIDENCE).. I DON”T CARE IF he apologized after the fact.. too little too late….. As you have noticed Gor (especially Gor) and Avery have been very patient with him and counter replied with very strong facts and evidence.which I am thankful for.. don’t expect one sided argument or accusations… .I may be different from them in the sense that I don’t come off too patience with such individuals.. but then that is me.. ..I personally don’t any disintegration of this thread… every counter argument from Gor and Avery is very fact oriented and very much intelligence… i just can’t swallow the disrespect (UNCALLED FOR to say the least) thrown on our faces by these denialists ????

     However, i understand that we should have blocked these denialists long time ago and basically put a red tape on their comments as no one can change their blocked minds. however,  as Gor and Avery addressed in the past….every false statement will face even stronger and bigger counter statements and this should NEVER stop…i don’t care if one feels things get repeated over and over.. if it is .. then it is…

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888. Gor jan– excellent reference to Ragnar’s old post about Armenians dying vs murdered… lets see how he gets himself out of this one..

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889. Boyajian

     thank you for presenting my point of view. You get it more or less correctly. I only wish I could get Gayane to acknowledge my position, and not simply see it as another denialist subterfuge. I am here because I would never try to write anything without a through discussion with Armenians. For me this is a moral issue. Apart from this the AW has a functioning culture of discussion which is much more than the Daily Hürriyet or the Daily Zaman in which the space is very restricted. I am also here to discuss with Turks, but before Monastras arrived I was never able to have any menaingful discussion with Turks in the AW. – Again of course I ask myself if we should end this discussion, I mean between you Armenians and me. At least I feel discouraged because of so many obvious misunderstandings of my view.

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890. gor

     this has to do with several issues, one of them is what we call ANTITHETICAL INTERPRETATION. If I say “died” you infer that my opinion is “not murdered”, and you immediately protest. This is a common mistake in debates. But by saying “died” I have not excluded the possibility that many were murdered. Indeed many Armenians were murdered in this period. So please dont interpret me antithetically.

     About the number 600.000-800.000 I just see that several scholars repeat this number. I never saw any detailed treatment arguing that it was 1.5 million. Tell me if you have it. I only note that Erik Zurcher in his last book “The Young turk legacy and nation building. From the Ottoman Empire to Atatürk’s Turkey ” confirms this number: “As a result of war, epidemcs and starvation, some 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims, as well as up to 800.000 Armenians and 300.000 Greeks had lost their lives” (p.139). Now as we know Erik Zurcher believes that the ittihadists launched a program of extermination, as you and I have discussed earlier”. I also see him as a quite cautious and sober scholar who emphasizes the need for sound documentation. And, excuse me, the number he gives is more or less the same as McCArthy has been given since 1983, when “Muslims and minorities” appeared.

     But your way of discussion, if you excuse me for saying so, is very aberrant. If you met Zurcher in a conference you would probably say: “LOST THEIR LIVES? THEY WERE MURDERED!!” And if Gayane was there she would add before Zurcher had a chance to answer: Well, mr. Zurcher, what about that? How do you extricate yourself from this one?”. Your way of discussion in these pages is a liability for the Armenian cause. The understanding of concepts and scholarly reasoning that you have is very confused, or simply absent, in the case of Gayane, at least. I feel sorry for the Armenians if they have spokesmen like you, or rather if spokesmenn like you take the floor in order to talk to those who are not already converted. Stamina among the believers is not enough. You must find ways to convince others – This confusion may lead to a situation when Armenians simply throw in the towel and abandon their former standpoints. I feel that this is what has happened to Azanavour when he simply says that Armenians should find “another word”. This is very inept, if he is quoted correctly. But I will not even ask you,Gayane, if he is quoted correctly, because I have not seen you quote anything from any books. You simply cheer and repeat slogans and use abusive language. I like you, because after more than a year I feel I discern the person behind your obvious mistakes. But I really hope you will stop for a moment and try to think if you are using these pages in a constructive way.      

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891. Love you, too, Gayane jan.  Thanks for putting your disagreement with me so nicely.  

     I certainly understand your viewpoint.  I agree that lies and misinformation should be stopped in their tracks.  Maybe I give him too much of the benefit of the doubt.   I distinguish between malicious deniers (those who know the truth but work against it to protect Turkey) and doubters (those who question the facts sincerely).  After all this time I am still not sure which one Ragnar is.  That is where I am coming from.  I have always maintained that I don’t see his contribution as productive for us, and I would prefer not to have ‘help’ from such a misguided human rights activist/consultant/researcher/etc., But we have to accept that after all these years have passed without justice, realpolitiks being what they are, and the limits of human memory, there will always be Ragnars.   But how much energy do we expend on them is the question.  There is much work to be done.

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892. sorry Boyajian, I disagree with the premise of your post (‘Friends, I agree with’…..).

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893. Boyajian, gor, gayane,
     I felt from the beginning that you have difficulties in relating to real disagreements which is also partial agreement. Maybe it is easier for you to relate to the Turks who come here and just reject the whole Armenian cause as malignant rubbish. It is more challenging to relate to people who agree in something and not in other. But this to my mind is the usual situation in life, at least if you relate to people outside your own circle, or bubble, as Karekin usually says. I feel there has been a definite development in the way you have related to to me and to Karekin, the two persons here who agree in some and disagree in some regarding the Armenian cause. However, I experience a strong current that will not accept this position, you try to re-interpret me into a previously established enemy picture. From this comes the surprise when you read my discussion with Monastras. I said so many of the things you also say. Gayane asked me to “take off the denialist mask!”. For me this is very similar to the experience I have with traditional Turks. When I agree with them in some matters they are very happy and expect me to believe in all. When they discover I do not believe in all, they either get very suspicious of me, believing I am suguarcoating an anti-Turkish message by professing agreement on some matters. Or they say that it is very difficult to understand me, I am not clear, I am ambiguous, I contradict myself and so on. For me these are signs of cultures that have a difficulty in relating to real disagreement, which is an important part of what democracy is all about . – Then comes the matter of trusting. In this discussion forum, we dont have our real names, we dont know each others, we are simply debating. So I am not asking about trust at all. I am listening to arguments, getting impressions, promoting views. Neither do I feel the need to trust nor to distrust anybody. If we really did some work together outside of dialogue, the question of trust would be very important for me. Bjut we dont. So I am surprised, Boyajian, that this has been a theme in your relation to me for such a long time. Wy is trust so important in an anonymous forum like the discussions in AW?

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894. ragnar naess,     it has to do with only one issue: your turkocentrism, one manifestation of which is what we call notional interpretation. Had you been less turkocentric, you could have used ‘were murdered’ which doesn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians died in conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. If you used ‘were murdered’ instead of hypothetical ‘died’ you could have kept your ‘antithetical interpretation’ to yourself. Likewise, as a turkocentric person, have you ever made an attempt to find treatments arguing that the number of Armenian victims was 1.5 million or at least greater than 600,000-800,000? For figures exceeding 800,000 please see:
      
     Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkei Report, written on July 2, 1916 and submitted to the German Foreign Office on July 14, 1916, A.A. Türkei, 134/35, A18613
      
     Report submitted to the German Foreign Office on May 27, 1916, A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959
      
     Endres, Carl Franz. Die Türkei. Munich, 1918
      
     Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Volume 11, Number 1, Spring 1997, Vahakn N. Dadrian. The Turkish Military Tribunal’s Prosecution of the Authors of the Armenian Genocide: Four Major Court-Martial Series
      
     Chaliand, Gérard. Le Crime de silence : le génocide des Arméniens: Tribunal permanent des peuples, [Session de Paris, 13-16 avril 1984] ; pref. de Pierre Vidal-Naquet, 1984
      
     Report, Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives 12 Türkei/380, ZI.17/pol and 12 Türkei/463, Z.94/P
      
     Pomiankowski, Joseph. Der Zusammenbruch des Ottomanischen Reiches, Graz, Austria, 1969 [first printed in 1928]
      
     Melson, Robert. Revolution and Genocide: On the Origins of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust, 1992
      
     Howard, Harry N. The King-Crane Commission: An American Inquiry in the Middle East, 1963
      
     Marashlian, Levon, Politics and Demography: Armenians, Turks, and Kurds in the Ottoman Empire, 1991
      
     Schaefer, T (ed.). Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity, and Society, 2008
      
     Henham, Ralph J, Behrens, Paul. The Criminal Law of Genocide: International, Comparative and Contextual Aspects, 2007
      
     Totten, Samuel, Paul Robert Bartrop, Steven L. Jacobs (eds.). Dictionary of Genocide, 2008
      
     Noël, Lise. Intolerance: A General Survey, 1994
      
     McCarthy’s figures are cited mostly in those works that support Turkey’s official thesis that mass murders of the Armenians do not constitute genocide. Many scholars, such as Aviel Roshwald and Frédéric Paulin, criticize him for undercounting the pre-war Armenian population, overcounting the survivors, and consider his figures to be an Ottoman source rather than a Western one, because McCarthy’s numbers of Armenian victims are derived from Ottoman records by applying correction values. In Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire, McCarthy calculated an estimate of the pre-war Armenian population, then subtracted his estimate of survivors, arriving at a figure of 600,000 for the period from 1914 to 1922. You may want to take a note that even your enfant cheri gives 1922 (Turkish burnings of the Armenians and Greeks in Smyrna) as the end date of mass murders, not 1916, as you do. As in the case of Armenian population, McCarthy’s statistics on the number of victims are controversial. In a 2001 essay The Population of the Ottoman Armenians, in The Armenians in the Late Ottoman Period, he contradicted himself by acknowledging that if the Armenian records of 1913 were accurate, 250,000 more deaths should be added, for a total of 850,000. Scholarly consensus has largely followed the conclusions made by Levon Marashlian’s study arriving at a figure of more than 1.2 million. Marashlian claimed that McCarthy’s results are based on inaccurate records disregarding the fact that there was an undercounting on the Ottoman’s government’s part on the one hand, and underreporting by Armenians, on the other.
      
     re:  “Your way of discussion in these pages is a liability for the Armenian cause. The understanding of concepts and scholarly reasoning that you have is very confused.”  For you, perhaps. My way of discussion in these pages is presentation of concepts and scholarly reasoning for the Armenian cause that differ from those of the denialists’ based on alternative sources that constitute scholarly consensus. I understand that such concepts and scholarly reasoning do not sit well with those who call the deliberate extermination of a race a ‘crime’ despite the term specifically coined for it or who juxtapose the emptying of the Armenian homeland in a deliberate centrally-planned act of physical destruction of inhabitants with wartime atrocities against a civilian segment of a party at war or who maintain that a smaller number of Armenians just collectively agreed to die in only two, not actually eight, consecutive years. If, God forbid, I put myself in your place, I’d understand why such concepts and scholarly reasoning for the Armenian cause would be labeled ‘very confused’.

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895. Likewise, Boyajian,     I disagree with the premise of your “Friends, I agree[…]” post. I think you quit somewhat hastily and somewhat easily.  Sorry.

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896. Avery, would you care to say more about that…  I’m interested to hear your thoughts.

     Ragnar, I don’t see it as mistrust toward you personally. I don’t know you, can’t know you from this website.  I only know this entity that submits comments on a website…   Oh, and appears at a symposium with a known genocide revisionist (McCarthy)…
     I don’t mean to offend you, I just can’t claim to know your motives based on such a limited exposure.  There are some despicable characters out there who would love to complete the genocide, and are not above lying, bribing, distorting and even murder to accomplish their goals.  I don’t think this is you, but some of your expressed views seem intent on spreading doubt in areas where certainty once stood.  What should I make of this?  To me, this undermines the march toward justice and serves the interests of the Turks, while obstructing justice for Armenians.  I don’t take this lightly.

     You say you agree there was genocide.  You agree that CUP central echelon were culpable for the deaths of their Ottoman Armenian citizens even if they didn’t intend the extent of the destruction that occurred.  To me this is a bottomline.  It is enough to indict Turkey, as the heirs to the Ottoman empire, for this crime.  Why should justice not be served?  Why would you align yourself with anything that delays justice for even one day?  This makes me question you.  Maybe it is a fault on my part and maybe it comes from deep-seated, subconscious resentment against Turks, but I dislike that you find the need to defend Turkey, the nation guilty of genocide, from the accusations from the victims.   What is there to defend?  What is in dispute?  Shouldn’t Turkey admit that this is their history, that it was an integral event involved in the eventual formation of modern Turkey and acknowledge that an apology and reparations are due to the Armenians?  Shouldn’t the nations of the world hold Turkey accountable for this?

     Your comment in your post addressed to Gor, Gayane and me, suggesting that we have difficulty relating to someone who partially agrees and partially disagrees with our views, has some merit with respect to me.  (I won’t speak for Gayane or Gor). But it is not because I can’t accept that you view some things differently.  It is because I can’t understand why someone with your background and credentials would choose to do anything that helps Turkey hide behind her distortions and revisions of history.  To me it is a cruel game to carry-out ‘fact finding missions,’ thus stimulating doubts, about a known tragic historical crime that awaits justice.  
      

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897. Ragnar- did we not say that McCarthy and Lowe or whoever denialist and bought up authors have NO ROOM on these pages.. STOP referring to them when you speak of the Genocide… you are discrediting yourself as a sound and intelligent jr historian…yeah…

     I believe Gor has the upper hand when it comes to providing accurate data and facts Ragnar.. you yourself can’t get out of the situation you put yourself in..do you realize that you can’t justify what you said and try harder and harder to explain yourself but everytime you explain, it gets worst and worst… just admit you re not fit to discuss such matter because you do not have the expertise or the tools to come up with strong arguments like Gor.. the next best thing is to acknowledge it, dissapear for a while (like last time but this time please please please do more in depth research AWAY from all those bought up authors by the Turkish govt), and thn come back and have a decent discussion.. but then again i doubt that will ever happen.. you had plenty of time to do that before coming to us the second time around.. but as they say third time is a charm……

     thank you and have a nice day..

     Gayane    

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898. “Erik Zurcher believes that the Ittihadists launched a program of extermination, as you and I have discussed earlier.”      I don’t remember we ever discussed this.   If I met Zurcher at a conference where he’d say Armenians ‘lost their lives” and not just ‘died’, I’d take it.

     Oxford English Dictionary:

     ‘lose one’s life’: be killed
     ‘die’: (of a person, animal, or plant) stop living

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899. Well Ragnar the jr historian who has the EXPERTISE in “understanding of concepts and scholarly reasoning”(your own words and i am sure you believe you have these traits otherwise you would not bluntly disrespect Gor and myself by calling us stupid because according TO YOU, we lack these traits..)   At least I am young and don’t extensive experience like Gor, and Avery (as they are both brilliant) but I know what make sense and what does not..you sir do not make sese .. now you are in your 70s and call yourself a Jr. Historian and a writer, so what is your excuse???  By the way, you  announced that  Avery was also a threat to the Armenian cause in one of your comments on this thread… are you done trying to drone up the troops against us by stating we are good for nothing to our cause to make you feel better?   now that is just low.. i would not have expected a jr historian to say such things Ragnar.. Not cool….

     Avery and Gor jan… hope you don’t lose sleep over Ragnar’s harsh words against you.. I know I wont… but it still not cool….

     Gayane   

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900. Ragnar, I think your use of the term aberrant when describing Gor is offensive.  You hurt your argument.  Simply clarify, clarify, clarify… Don’t you not know by now that this is no mere intellectual debate for Armenians?  There are life and death components involved when one’s very identity and history are denied, and emotions run high.  If you are misunderstood, clarify.  But by all means, please try to understand your audience here.
     This is not academia.

     As far as Zurcher and the numbers go; you must realize that these numbers have long been discussed and disputed and may never be known exactly, but that it is most commonly believed to be 1-1.5 million Armenians died in the genocide.  Ottoman census numbers didn’t always match Armenian Church numbers.  Also Ottomans may have had reasons to underreport the number of Armenians.   Where did Zurcher get his numbers?   
     Also it is accepted that 2-2.5 million Armenians were in Ottoman Turkey in 1914. (This does not include Islamized Armenians).  Virtually none were left by the end of the war.   And if you take into account the earlier Hamidian and Adana Massacres you will begin to understand the problem with numbers when there was a genocidal pattern in action long before the 1915 accepted start of the Armenian Genocide.  How many fled before 1915? How many Islamized?  How many kidnapped or murdered?

     But more importantly, while numbers are important to illustrate the magnitude of an event, they are only numbers.  It is the sheer devastation and elimination of Armenians from their homeland that is more salient and definitive when discussing the effects of the Ottoman Turkish genocide of the Armenians.
     Careful not to create a smokescreen with a dispute over numbers.  The end results speak for themselves that a massive crime took place and must be punished.

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901. That is right Boyajian jan… The end result WAS AND WILL ALWAYS BE GENOCIDE and it took place by the hands of the Ottomans…

     and I personally don’t trust Ragnar..i don’t trust his motives…just don’t…

     Gor jan– apres…   thank you for providing Ragnar the difference between “die” and “murdered”… maybe Ragnar made a mistake by the word “die” .. who knows? but then again i doubt it.. because if my great grandfather was alive today, he would have given his very serious and very angry look (he was not a violent person but everyone who knew him knew he meant business and just by looing at them, they knew they need to shut up) because his family did not die in a peaceful manner but he witnessed his family MURDERED… 

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902. ‘Avery, would you care to say more about that…  I’m interested to hear your thoughts.’

     I gladly will Boyajian, only if you want to: it will be long and harsh: you may not like it. 
     (But we will remain friends) 

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903. Monastras

     the three points I’d like you to comment on are the fact that perpetrators of massacres of Armenians were not punished to any significant degree, and that  even Talat Pasha himself acknowledged this. He even said that they did not punish perpetrators for political reasons

     The second is that the money allotted to the  welfare of the Armenian deportees is a small fraction per person compared to  the money alotted to the Muslim muhacir coming from the Balkans. This is inadvertently confirmed by Halacoglu in his article “The realities behind the relocation” and is taken up by Gerlach in his book “Extremely violent societies”.

     The third is that the area in which Armenians were supposed to be resettled   anyhow could not support them.

     I can provide documentation for these points if you need it.  

     What do these three points say about intentions in the CUP regarding the Armenians?           

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904. boyajian

     I agree that the numbers ultimately is a minor thing. But on the other side to answer factual information with reference to what the audience experiences emotionally is questionable.

     Monastras

     The three points I wanted you to comment on are 1) the fact that people massacring Armenian deportees were very seldom punished, even that Talat Pasha says that they did not punish them for political reasons

     the second is that the money used for the welfare of the Armenian deportees is only a fraction per person of the money used for resettlement of the Muslim muhacir from the Balkans

     The third is that the area supposed to be used for the resettlement of the Armenians could never support this population

     What does this say about the mindset and the intent of the CUP?      
               

     Reply

905. ragnar naess,   your comment in a post addressed to me, Gayane, and Boyajian, suggesting that we have difficulty relating to someone who partially agrees and partially disagrees with our views, has some merit with respect to me, too, because I can’t accept that someone with your polymathic knowledge would choose to use evasive terms (‘crime’ vs. ‘genocide’, ‘die’ vs. ‘were killed’), uncorroborated numbers (600,000-800,000 vs. up to 1.5 mln or more), erroneous dates (1915-1916 vs. 1915-1923), as well as make absurd historical analogies (genocidal annihilation of autochthonous inhabitants of the Armenian landmass vs. wartime atrocities against a civilian component of a party at war) and cite scholars most of whom are known to be on the Turkish side of the debate (McCarthy & Co.).
      
     To me, these are the symptoms of turkocentrism and denialism.
      
     A truly impartial person wouldn’t use the verb ‘die’ when describing the mass killings of the Armenians. He would at the very least use the phrase ‘lost their lives’ if using ‘were murdered’ is considered a juridical term, like ‘genocide’.
      
     A truly impartial person wouldn’t state that mass murders of the Armenians took place in 1915-1916 period knowing that pockets of Armenians were methodically exterminated throughout Eastern Anatolia in the consecutive years up until the creation of Christians-free Republic of Turkey in 1923. Best proof: mass burnings of Armenians in Smyrna in 1922.
      
     A truly impartial person would at the very least mention that some sources, mostly Turkish, put the number of Armenian victims at 300,000-600,000, while others, mostly German and Austrian diplomatic dispatches and other Western sources, estimate them at or up to 1.5 million.
      
     I disagree with Boyajian that you said you agree there was genocide. Like I’ve shown, the term ‘genocide’ was used in the context of ICTJ’s—not your—formulation. I also haven’t seen that you agree that CUP central echelon were culpable for the deaths of Ottoman Armenians even if they didn’t intend the extent of the destruction that occurred. Even if you agree that CUP central echelon were culpable, but disagree there was a genocidal intent, it’d still lie outside the confines of scholarly and legal consensus, which holds that “at least some of the perpetrators knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.” (The Applicability of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide to Events which Occurred During the Early Twentieth Century, ICTJ-February 10, 2003)

     Reply

906. Gor, beautiful response providing all the references supporting the 1-1.5 million figure. Thank you.

     And I didn’t quit.  I needed a break and to regroup.

     Avery, “long and harsh” scares me.  

      

     Reply

907. gor

     thank you for your impressive list of authors. I will look into it. Possibly I am wrong. I was simply impressed by Zurcher – who  very clearly supports the thesis that the ittihadists launched an extermination program  and cannot be suspected of pro-turkish attitudes – who both upholds this number (up to 800.000) and also praises McCarthy for his demographical work. 

      

     Reply

908. well then Boyajian, I will not post my “long and harsh”. 

     Reply

909. I fully stand with Gor, Avery (ari arants deghamartig) and Gayane jans. 

     I am appaled at the denialist or near denialist ragnar naess who has ridiculously asked Gor to apologize.  While ragnar after 96 years is still wondering whether the CUP’s near annihilation of an entire race of the Armenians is premeditated or not and while he tried to put parrallels the Armenian Genocide with the Balkanian Turks’ killings who were at war.  I admired Gor’s undying patience to go over and over with him bringing facts after facts that the Balkanian wars were totally different than in the case of the Armenian Genocide, and only after so many posts, ragnar asks Gor for an apology???  The absurdity of his proposal is so ridiculous it is more than propesterous.  Frankly I will ask who has to apologize who???

     Reply

910. Dear Gor, I’d like you to be aware if you do not know it yet that during the Armenian Genocide when he saw the total destruction of the Armenian race, the hellish Talaat Pasha said, “now that the Armenians (meaning the ARF heads and the Henchagyan heads) are so angry that we have to finish our job and do a more thorough annihilation to the Armenians”.

     Yes Gor jan, It was INDEED A PREMEDITATED GENOCIDE BY THE HANDS OF THE CUP ITTIHADIST GOVERNMENT OF TURKEY!!!!!

     Reply

911. Ragnar, I look forward to Monastras’ answers to your questions and appreciate your raising of them.  

     Can you expand on this?:

     “But on the other side to answer factual information with reference to what the audience experiences emotionally is questionable.” 

     Gor, it was in a post in another thread, long ago, that Ragnar alluded to the idea that the intent among upper echelons of CUP was not proven to his satisfaction, but he agreed that they were nonetheless culpable as a government for the genocide of the Armenian nation.  I am sorry that I can’t provide the citation.

     Avery, long and harsh is not my style; I would never have survived the death marches.
     Can you make it short and sweet?
     
      

     Reply

912. and Ragnar will always stick to his guns.. there is no turning for him.. he believes and will continue to stick to the fact that upper echelon of CUP was not involved; hence not enough evidence to prove or as he said it..was not proven to his satisfaction… but i say.. WHO CARES what Ragnar thinks…. or does not think… the facts are clear and right there.. now if he wants to probe and pick on it as long as he shall live, so be it.. but don’t let him come in here and run the show like he knows anything… really annoying….

     Ragnar why you keep asking Monastras to answer.. have you noticed that all these denialists do is say something Anti-Armenian and leave.. they have nothing constructive to say… i would be surprised if Monastras comes back with decent responses.. we shall wait and see…

     Gayane   

     Reply

913. gor

     I have apologized for remarks of mine that I understood were hurtful. Now you wrote on september 22 the following, in two different posts:

     September
     22 “I sometimes say ‘the deportations and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes
     “the relocation and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes ‘the Armenian
     genocide’.” Simply
     not true. You’ve never said ‘the Armenian genocide’. Prove me wrong by
     referring me to any of your posts in this thread.
     ragnar
     naess, I don’t want you to use the word ‘genocide’ repeatedly as a kind of
     marker of allegiance. You said you sometimes used “the Armenian genocide”. I
     say you’re lying. Not once have you used it. Prove me wrong, if you can.
     unquote

     Then I showed you a post of september 15 in which I use it. Then you refuse to apologize in spite of your obvious mistake and slanderous accusation.

     I use terms like this with qualificaitions, as I said. Then you say that this has been defined, no use for more qualifications. But there is a need to make qualifications to my mind – for several reasons, and every time when one uses value loaded expressions. By the way there is a good deal of literature in which different definitions iof genocide is used. Hans-Lukas Kieser, a Swiss genocide researcher, distinguished between  the “intentionalist” and the “non-intentionalist” meaning”. The point is that even if intention is difficult to pinpoint, the effects of actions may be genocidal. Charny has made a very broad definition. there has also been debates on what the words in the Convention definition may mean. How are they to be interpreted? Most clearly this was regarding whether the Tutsis were a “protected group” according to the Convention definition. It is not clear that they are a”religious,ethnic, national, or racial group”. But the court said it is reasonable to say that they are. There are more examples. Simply to insist on the application of the word “genocide” is not enough. 

     But in the discussion with you, I propose that you reconsider your accusation that I was lying. Honestly, gor, this does not make sense. There is no shame in retracting a statement and making an apology.       
       

     Reply

914. Genocidal intent in upper echelons of the CUP: I commented
     on this in  the davutoglu debate, in 2010, with Anahit and Boyajian and others. We had a long discussion on this. On june 23,2010 I wrote:
     But
     Boyajian, my whole point is that genocidal intent among the top echelons of the
     ittihadists is difficult to prove. Maybe this is not important to you, but for
     many researchers, Armenian or not, it is very important to hold that it is
     quite clear that the ittihadists had genocidal intent. And I said
     earlier that Armenians have a just claim for restitution from Turkey.
     One june
     30, 2010, again in discussing with Boyajian, I wrote:
     It was
     committed by SOME Turks, and the role of the central echelons of CUP is
     according to a significant number of scholars not clear. To clamor that so many
     researchers and so many parliament think otherwise is not enough for me.

     I dont know how we can get this discussion further. But let me try again: I
     would like to go on investigating the question of genocidal intent in CUP
     because a) I see that many disagree, 2) because those who hold the position
     have failed to argue convincingly for it, 3) because many proofs, for instance
     the three works mentioned by Msheci are hightly dubious.

     On the other hand there is no doubt that the CONSEQUENCES were genocidal and
     that the CUP bears a heavy responsibility.
     unquote
     There are
     many more examples when I again and again clarify my point on intent in the
     upper echelons of the CUP. I hope this suffices.

     Reply

915. Ragnar
      
     You wrote 
      there are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
     Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
     any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
     against the government. 
     1-If we believe that the local authorities also played an important role during the deportation, Why it is impossible for some local Authorities to deport the Armenian population from those areas? Do you think that the local army commanders did exactly what CUP instructed no more or more less? Can’t some of the local officials ignore or interpret the instructions from the Government in the way they like?
     I am sure more research should be done.But everything that the Armenians touch smells foul.The same can be said for the nationalist Turkish historians as well as ex-Marksist or extreme leftist people like Halil Berktay or Taner Akcam who only want to shoot turkey nothing else.
     2-You also said the Armenians doesn’t have to take their case to the ICJ. I am asking you why not? If the outcome will be in their favor. They will put an end to the denialism of Turkey. What prevent them to stay away from the ICJ? Doesn’t this show that I am not the only one who finds their story dubious?
     As far as I remember you answered the first question but not the second one. I think you must read the memoirs of Talat pashas published by Murat Bardakci, if you are fluent in Turkish. Not the ones some people copied and changed the way they like. Having said that, I haven’t read the book but I believe it contains important information regarding the WW1 era and the Armenian deportation.
     You wrote
     the money used for the welfare of the Armenian deportees is only a fraction per person of the money used for resettlement of the Muslim muhacir from the Balkans.
     I am afraid we cannot credit this man who actually is a petroleum engineer and connected to the Michigan University. Unfortunately, some people want to become a celebrity of the Armenian genocide in Turkey. I can make many negative comments about this guy but people can find these criticisms easily without my comments. You said his work is accepted as somewhat accurate by Yusuf Halacoglu. Did Yusuf Halacoglu change his view regarding the Armenian Genocide? If he didn’t change, what is the reason that he didn’t change his position? I even do not believe that CUP had a proper budget and money to spend while they were dealing with half a millions of enemy soldiers only in one front. I think we are judging something with today’s logic that happened a century ago. We think that CUP leaders sat down on their chairs and decided that Immigrant Turks should have 10 dollars but the Armenians should have only 1 dollar. Why can’t you think that they might have spent the money for the Turkish immigrants from Balkan and for war effort and spent the remaining money for the Armenians? As far as we know, the immigrants came first from Balkan then the Armenians were deported.(Gayane, Don’t jump on my words saying the Armenians were deported because the immigrant Turks needed shelter.I know it will be beyond your comprehension but they actually came to the western Turkey not to the beautiful Armenian Highland.) Turks were sleeping on streets, in their ox-carts in search of a shelter to sleep. Even Istanbul streets and squares were full of refugees’ ox-carts. Moreover, imagine for a minute that everything is dead accurate about what Fuat Dundar says without thinking the background of the events. We still cannot use selective evidences to support what we are thinking. If you do, it will hit you sooner or later.
     You wrote
      the fact that people massacring Armenian deportees were very seldom punished, even that Talat Pasha says that they did not punish them for political reasons
     Punishing the people who actually massacred the Armenians and punishing the decision makers are totally different things. We are talking about the second one here and they were executed without trial in the hands of nationalist Armenians. We all know that some 1600 people were prosecuted and quite a few of them were hanged or jailed. The British also held 141 people in Malta for alleged offences for massacres
     In releations to prisoner exchange Article 2 under the Agreement For the Immediate Release of Prisoners reads:
     “The repatriation of Turkish prisoners of war and interned civilians now in the hands of the British authorities shall commence at once, and shall continue as quickly as possible. This will not apply, however, to persons whom it is intended to try for alleged offences in violation of the laws and customs of war, or for massacres committed during the continuance of the state of war in territory which formed part of the Turkish Empire on 1st August, 1914.
      
     What does the agreement clearly says? It excludes the persons who allegedly involved the massacres and war atrocities. Eventually, the British had to let all people go. What does that means?
      
     I think Talat pasha talked about the Kurdish Lords, when he mentioned that they didn’t (or couldn’t) punish them for political reason. He probably talked about the truth. Not because they didn’t want to punish but they couldn’t because, the Ottoman government wasn’t in a position to extend its power to Eastern Anatolia. Armenian and Kurdish bandits dominated the area. I think this is one of the reasons that so many Armenians lost their lives in the hands of Kurds whereas when you go toward the west, the massacres almost didn’t exist. The Kurdish lords are still active hundred years later and the local officers still have to get on with these people however, the central Government doesn’t care much about the Kurdish Lords.
     You wrote
     he third is that the area supposed to be used for the resettlement of the Armenians could never support this population
      
     You are right here, the resettlement could never support the Armenian population but you need to remember constantly that the Russian Army was approaching from the east with the help of the Armenians and half a millions of Allied soldiers were trying to crack down the Turkish Army in Dardanelles. They were in a great panic and understandably weren’t in a position to think about Armenians every day. They wanted to put an end to the Armenian resistance,assistance but didn’t think about it too much what might be the consequences of the deportation. Does that show the genocidal intention of CUP? I do not think so

     Reply

916. “Thank you for your impressive list of authors. I will look into it. Possibly I am wrong. I was simply impressed by Zurcher – who very clearly supports the thesis that the Ittihadists launched an extermination program and cannot be suspected of pro-Turkish attitudes – who both upholds this number (up to 800.000) and also praises McCarthy for his demographical work.”
      
     ragnar naess,    always a pleasure to disprove the denialists’ figures and facts or at least challenge them using an alternative body of evidence.  In addition to the number of Armenian victims that you’ve borrowed from Zurcher, was the verb ‘died’ as well as dates ‘1915-16’ also borrowed from one author who cannot be suspected of pro-Turkish attitudes and praises McCarthy for his demographical work? Also, do Norwegian academic research requirements permit a person to use numbers based on a borrowing from just one author in a field? In other words, is it considered a scholarly or a charlatan approach in Norwegian academic circles to come up with a number of victims based on how one was ‘simply impressed’ by one single author? Or this is your newest contribution to the international academic research methodology? I always thought, based on my academic training, that responsible, genuinely impartial, scholars are required to look into many primary sources or accounts of many authors to make a statement, aren’t they?

     Reply

917. So Monastras, you defend the CUP decision that because there were some Armenians who assisted Russia or otherwise fought to protect Armenian interests, that all Armenian Ottoman citizens, whether young children, pregnant mothers and elderly, or living far from the war fronts, deserved to be treated as criminals, deemed guilty without trial by virtue of ethnicity, and deported to the desert without provisions to sustain life.  That is a weak defense and does more to bolster the Armenian claims of planned genocide than it supports Turkey’s excuses.  Very sad.  The Armenians were citizens not unwanted garbage.  ‘Panic’ may seem like a fair justification to you for these inhuman acts, but to me it simply explains the backdrop, not an excuse for your nation’s crime.  

     You know that genocide happened.  It must be acknowledged and paid for.  It really is as simple as that.  Turkey just doesn’t want to play fair.   Dirty, dirty, dirty.

     Reply

918. The bottom line is that the CUP ‘solution’ to what they saw as the Armenian ‘problem’, using ethnic cleansing and outright murder, was crude, clumsy and medieval at best.  When a group of people do not obey, despotic governments (and yes, even democratic ones), often go beserk in their need for total control. Death and destruction usually follow.  No matter how one spins it, the outright murder of hundreds of thousands of Armenian men and boys at the outset of the genocide, clearly showed intent, as did the deportation of the remaining women, children and elderly into the lifeless deserts of Syria. 

     If the CUP had actually wanted to preserve and protect the Armenian population, most of whom were innocent of anything and guilty of nothing, other than living on their own ancestral lands, and by the way…feeding, clothing and conducting commerce for the entire empire – there were plenty of other ways to do it. But, the angry arm of the CUP was not interested in the Armenians – it was only interested in what they had and schemed to take it all away from them.

     The (false) argument about Russia is also hollow, since Armenians lived on both sides of the border, and fought on behalf of their respective rulers.   To argue about this is ridiculous, as the CUP’s actions speak louder than words, which at the time, were often full of diplomatic lies and clever deceptions to deflect those who questioned what was happening in the Armenian vilayets.  If we’re being honest here, anyone who supports the Palestinian cause in 2011, or for that matter, any minority cause in the world, they must also understand and support the Armenian position pre-1915.  If not, then it’s clear that they support state sponsored terror, murder and ethnic cleansing, and that’s really all we need to know, isn’t it?      

      

     Reply

919. gor

     I see you evade the question of your obviously mistaken charge that I was lying. 

     Reply

920. no, ragnar naess,     I was simply responding to your posts one at a time. Here’s another one. If I felt I was wrong in accusing you of being untruthful, I’d apologize. I believe, however, that you failed to prove that you’ve said unambiguously, as a revelation of your own conviction, criteria, and assessment, that the Turkish crime against Armenians constituted genocide. The excerpt from your September 15 post shows only that the term was used being understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, not as your own conviction. Your own conviction, as you admit it, is that you use terms like this with ‘qualifications’ (read: with reservations), even if you know that the Convention was adopted using the term coined as a result of study of the Armenian—not Rwandan—case.
      
     May I also remind that my accusation was done at the time when we discussed the need of calling crimes by their name. If you apply ‘qualifications’, or reservations rather, to genocide, how can you say you actually ‘use’ it in a true sense of the word? Applying reservations implies that one rather avoids using it in this sense. This is what your September 15 post demonstrates: that the term was used as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, not as you personally would use it.
      
     I made you a fair offer and I won’t respond any more to this subject.  Make your statement a first-person narrative by taking out ‘understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ’ and replacing it by ‘as I understand and formulate it’.  Unless you do this, I’ll hold that my accusation is accurate.

     Reply

921. Monastras, explain this, please:

     “But everything that the Armenians touch smells foul.” 

     Reply

922. My enquiry to Monastras is a bit off the topic and pertains to my having difficulty to understand the peculiarities, so to speak, of the Turkish national mentality.  Monastras,     let’s put aside for a second that national liberation ideas of a few Armenian revolutionaries, just like those of Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Cypriots, Montenegrins, Albanians, and even your fellow Muslim Arabs, were the result of Seljuk invasions into Asia Minor and the Balkans and consequent colonization of these indigenous peoples by the Ottomans. Let’s consider a few unarmed Armenian revolutionaries and their freedom aspirations represented a grave danger for the Ottoman empire.  Suppose a person in Constantinople committed a crime (whatever his motives were, even most honest and noble), was charged with it (which was never done with respect of Armenians), was brought to trial (which was never done with respect of Armenians), and convicted to death (which was done with respect of Armenians en masse and in the most savage forms).  Does this mean, based on Turkish mentality, that all of his next-of-kins and siblings: his father and mother, his grandfather and grandmother, his brothers and sisters, his uncles and aunts, his cousins, all of his distant relatives, and even unborns (who in Armenian case were slit off their mothers’ wombs) living in Bursa, Ankara, Izmir, Antalya, Konya, Samsun, Trabzon and elsewhere must face death as well?

     Reply

923. Very well put, Karekin.

     Ragnar, can you simply state that the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire suffered a genocide?  

     Qualifications aside, it is a straightforward question, that can be easily answered by looking at the end result of Ittihadist policies toward the Armenian population of the empire.

     Reply

924. Monastras

     If somebody is a petroleum engineer or not is not the case. For me to dwell on this is
     waste of time.

     I will first take the issue of money used for resettlement of both Armenians and the
     Muslim muhajirs. Both this money and the money used for Armenian deportees were channeled through an organization whose name in English literature was IAMM. No, Halacoglu has not agreed to the existence of genocide, but he – apparently inadvertently – used figures which illustrated the
     points made by Christian Gerlach, professor of Contemporary History at the
     University of Bern, in his book “Extremely violent societies”  (p.100).

     Halacoglu writes about the sums used to care for Armenian
     deportees in his article “The realities behind the relocation” in
     Ataöv (ed):”The Armenians in the late Ottoman Period” (Turkish
     Historical society, Ankara 2001). He tells us (p.125) that the budget of IAMM
     for 1915 was 78 million kuruş and for 1916 200 million kuruş. He writes that
     the sums allotted to Armenians in 1915 was 2.2 million. The references he provides are
     a number of telegrams. You will find them in the book or I can give the
     references here. Now there was almost a million Armenian deportees and many of
     them spent months on the road. But the sums imply  that they received the average of a little
     more than 2.2 kurus per person. the mucahirs appear to have recieved 22.75 million or some 22-23 kurus per person. That is for 1915, if we assume that all the 2.25 mill for Armenians were used this year.
     Gerlach uses the same source (The BOA or Office of the Prime Minister) as Halacoglu and also cites Halacoglu. He gives lower sums than Halacoglu (25 million in 1915 and 100 million in 1916) so he
     evidently uses other documents. But for the full period 1915-16 he holds that the muslim muhacir on the average received 70 times more than the average Armenian. there are some elements missing in Gerlach’s reasoning, as he says that he presupposes that there one million Armenians were relocated during 1915, but does not provide any number for the Muslim muhacirs. But if we assume that one million refugees from the Balkan war 1912-13 were not resettled in the course of 1915 – a too high figure, I believe – and 1.2 million Kurdish refugees in 1916 following the
     Russian occupation of a large part of Eastern Anatolia, then the proportion of the money used for
     Muslims must have been much higher. To take only 1915, there were 2.25 million for one million Armenians and 76,75 million for one million muslims, that is using the numbers of   Halacoglu, that is 33  times as much! We then assume that all the 2.25 million were used in 1915, something which is not clear from Halacoglu’s text. If we use Gerlach’s number and assume the same number of people the mujahirs possibly received only 9 times as much in 1915 ( out of 25 millions armenians received 2.25 (provided all was handed out in 1915). For 1916, provided that the same sum was given to 500.000 surviving Armenians, they received on the average 4,5 kurus, whereas if we assunme that 500.000 mujahirs had survived they received  97.75 million
     or 195 kurus per person. That is mujahirs received 45 times more than Armenians! The numbers may be different to some degree but  the difference seems rather bigger than smaller to the disadvantage of the Armenians. –  What does this tell about the official priorities
     regarding the welfare of Armenians? – Gerlach remarks that “with these numbers Halacoglu meant to demonstrate the generosity of the Ottoman authoritiers”. Take a look at the numbers and
     judge for yourself!

     Reply

925. “Ragnar, can you simply state that the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire suffered a genocide?” 
     Hardly, Boyajian.  He’s likely to say that it is ‘understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ’ and will add his ‘qualifications’…

     Reply

926. gor

     I’ll provide more citations. I have used the expression Armenian Genocide many times. Here is another one (august 16):
     My
     friend Gayane, I feel sad if some Armenians cannot say more to the cruel ethnic
     cleansing of Turks than “these things happen”. It plays right into
     the hands of the nationalist Turks who will love to depict the Armenians as
     people who do not care about humanism but only about themselves. These Turks
     are also shrugging their shoulders at the Armenian genocide and saying “these
     things happen”. It is sad when peoples who experienced so much awful suffering
     belittle the sufferings of each others
      

     Reply

927. one of my posts of august 25:
     quote:Other general recent histories could be mentioned. But older European histories have
     often a general anti-turkish bias which is corrected today. This is not to deny
     that Armenians had problems. But we are then talking about the whole Ottoman
     period, arent we? Of course the end of the Armenian existence in Anatolia, the
     Armenian genocide, is quite something else. As I have repeated and repeated
     here, the Armenians have a just cause, but it is mistaken, although
     understandable, to see the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of
     the events of 1915-16 and the expusion from and fleeing of Armenians from
     Anatolia? Unquote.

     Reply

928. ragnar naess,   I now see that out of the three excerpts only in the August 25 post did you use ‘the Armenian genocide’ independently as a first-person narrative. I admit this one instance might have slipped my attention and apologize for my charge that you were lying.  I’d still wish to see that you believe the genocidal end of the Armenian existence was the result of the original intent of the higher echelons of CUP.

     Reply

929. gor

     its OK. Apology accepted.  

     Reply

930. ‘Avery, long and harsh is not my style; I would never have survived the death marches.
     Can you make it short and sweet?’

     I’ll see if I can extract enough for it to be short, but still convey my message accurately Boyajian. Otherwise, some other time, some other thread. 

     Reply

931. ragnar naess,     since we now established that you did use the word ‘genocide’ once in the linguistic sense, but, as I understand from Boyajian, you nonetheless have reservations in the semantic sense, let’s move, if you will, to other discrepancies.
      
     We discussed the fate of Bulgarian Turks at length and neither of us is convinced by the arguments and counterarguments of the other. Be it as it may, it’ll always be beyond my comprehension as to how the war atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks inflicted on them by non-Armenians could relate after 38 years (from 1877 to 1915) to the genocidal annihilation of the Armenians.
      
     We also discussed the number of the Armenian victims and you promised to look into sources other than McCarthy, in particular primary sources in German and Austrian archives from which the figure 1.5 million is derived.
      
     We also started debating the use of the verb ‘died’ instead of the closest depiction: ‘were murdered’. You said ‘died’ didn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians were murdered, to which I replied that with the same token ‘were murdered’ wouldn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians actually died, as they did during the death marches, in concentration camps, in the desert with no food and water, of starvation, i.e. in conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. You then asked what if I met Zurcher at a conference where he’d say Armenians ‘lost their lives” and not just ‘died’, to which I replied that I’d take it, because ‘lose one’s life’ means ‘be killed’, whereas ‘died’ means stopped living. Any other reasons as to why you you think it is correct to use such a hypothetical word in connection to the genocide of Armenians?
      
     Then there’s one item remaining, that being the dates. You keep mentioning 1915-16 as the dates for the genocide. What data do you base your argument on? Armenian Genocide is best understood not as having begun in 1915, but rather as an ongoing genocide from 1896 through 1909, through World War I and right up to the creation of Christians-free Republic of Turkey in 1923.

     Reply

932. Ragnar– no matter how weak evidences you produce…. i still don’t believe in you.. you have not convinced me. that you use the expression ARmenian Genocide because you believe in it.. SORRY.. you still remain as someone who is lying… lying about your intentions and your wishy washy status on these pages.. OUT OF THE ENTIRE almost two years that we have known you… YOU and I had the same exchange. I know you DO NOT BELIEVE in the ARmenian Genocide and you saying i kind of do BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT…. NO Ragnar.. there is NO BUT… IT IS.. period…. I don’t care if you used the expression Armenian Genocide one or two times in this ENTIRE time….I just don’t see it, don’t believe it and see you as someone really not on the side of the justice…sorry….

     I still would like to hear your reply to Boyajian’s question..where she asked you to simply call it as it is… Armenians suffered  Genocide in great proportion by the hands of the Ottomans… go ahead.. …  

     You said you apologized for the wrong things you said .. but if I remember correctly you only apologized to Gor… actually it was Avery who first brought up the issue of you calling us “inbreds” and for the word “disposed” but he did not get an apology from you.. did he?? hmmm don’t think so…

     MOnastras Xhanum.. WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED.. i was actually waiting for such BS from you.. absolutely.. same old excuses.. same old song.. are you people tired of the lies??? do you use your heads to rationalize a world known fact??? why do you keep referring to “panic”  “group of nationalist Armenians” “Russia” and BS like that?? i mean seriously, have you ever stopped and read the posts? obviously not because you got NOTHING out of all the data provided to you on these pages.. ok fine.. don’t want to read the comments here which in fact are very educational and very factual, GO AND READ SOMETHING THAT IS NOT PRO-TURKISH and chewed up by your Turkish govt and fed to you with force… it is amuzing to see by throwing up some messed up words and expressions, it will serve you and the whole denialists community justice..well it is not…  it is absolutely pathetic…

     and you tell US that everything ARmenians touch smells foul?? and this is coming out of a hard core denialists…    

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933. Gayane,

     Okay, I’ll respect your decision of abject cowardice in your refusal to debate me. But please be an adult about it and stop throwing “denialism” and other terms around as a “defense”. You’ll find that people will actually respect you then! Also, I’m not “harrassing” you. This is yet another attempt to divert and deny your escapism regarding debating. Don’t worry, I’ll not ask you again for a debate, since you’ve already shown your true colors and lack of historical knowledge.  

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934. take a hike, Robert oglu.

     one thing Gayane does not suffer from is, quote, ‘abject cowardice’: she afraid of you ? What medicine has been prescribed  to you by your MD ?
     She is ignoring you. Do you  understand the difference between  fearing someone and ignoring someone  ?
      
     What’s the matter son, have had rejection problems with women in your life ? can’t take “Not interested” for an answer ?
     
     You are just looking for attention: nobody here cares what you think, or your lack of debating ability. 
     Your phony indignation was mildly entertaining at one time, but we have seen it before: it  is quite annoying  by now.

     Your ‘Robert’ team  was  exposed as a phony long ago.
     None of you   ‘Robert’-oglar  is worthy of discussion here.

     Go away. Go and play with your Anti-Armenian buddies @Hurriyet and @DailyZaman. 

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